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  1. Andy says:

    so Ioffe should be in favor of Israel importing millions of Africans so it could get a decent soccer team…right?

    • LOL: The Alarmist
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Karl
  2. istevefan says:

    This #WorldCup has been clear evidence that immigration has changed the “culture” of Europe—for the better.

    I do not think she understands the phrase “changed the culture”. Football is part of the culture of France and Europe and has been for over a century. That has not changed. Immigration has neither diminished nor increased Europe’s love of football. So the World Cup is not evidence at all that the culture of Europe has been changed, let alone for the better.

    Rather if immigration had changed the culture of French or European sport, then maybe we would see new games like Buzkashi become part of French and European culture. So far we have not seen this. So the culture of French and European sport has not been changed.

    However, there are cultural changes that have happened to France and Europe that are totally unrelated to sports. Whether one sees this as a positive or a negative is another question.

  3. Jackson says:

    Lol. homogeneous, white Croatia nearly beats a team full of intercontinental mercenary ringers representing a country 15 times its size. What a rebuke of Trump.

    • Agree: TWS
    • Replies: @Iberiano
    , @Anon
    , @Percy Gryce
  4. eded says:

    Isn’t the French victory actually a victory for French imperialism?

    The minorities on the French team have roots in the former French colonies. For instance Star French player Kylian Mbappe has a Cameroonian father and an Algerian mother.

    The European countries with significant numbers of racial minorities do so largely because they possessed overseas territories. Homogenous countries such as Croatia didn’t.

    He who praises diversity praises imperialism.

  5. Anonymous[408] • Disclaimer says:

    Since footballing success is vital to culture, and immigration is now vital to football success, immigration policy will be directed towards obtaining vast pools of immigrants from which footballing mercenaries can be recruited.

    And therefore all future World Cups (and Euro Cups, for that matter) will be about whose Africans can beat whose.

    • Replies: @KyleCartman
  6. Achilles says:

    When was the last time Israel qualified for the World Cup?

    Mass immigration of gentile blacks from western Africa and gentile Maghrebis from northern Africa into Israel would likely dramatically improve Israel’s chances of winning a World Cup.

    And probably change the “culture” of Israel for the better. Right, Julia?

    • Replies: @anony-mouse
  7. Anonymous[263] • Disclaimer says:

    France already won it before, 20 years ago, when those sparkly immigrants were toddlers. Who in journalism can be bothered to know such facts, lol

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  8. Yak-15 says:

    The US would not have won so many world basketball tournaments without slavery.

    Slavery was good.

  9. I understand the preponderance of blacks (with respect to their proportion of the general population) on the European squads, but the North Africans and Middle Easterners baffle me. Their countries do terribly at the Olympics, and you don’t really see them in other sports. I assume they mature faster than whites, so maybe it hangs over from youth soccer, where they would tend to be bigger sooner(?). I think there are some wins to be had in one of the national soccer leagues by following a Patriots-wide-receiver-cost-saving type strategy of signing overlooked white players. Maybe I’m wrong.

    • Replies: @KyleCartman
    , @Anonymous
  10. So Europe gets more and more immigrant trouble every year, but all this is nothing compared to the glory of the World Cup.

    Forget race mixing, this is the best example of what deep Brazilification looks like.

    • Replies: @Anonym
  11. No, France wouldn’t have won. Congo would have!

    Immigration from former colonies is the enemy of diversity, and the modern equivalent of resource extraction from post-colonial countries that need them. We should cut it out.

    • Replies: @fred c dobbs
  12. Yak-15 says:

    WADA says that doping is bad but without doping Russia…

  13. eded says:

    The French victory is also interesting in that it is diverse, but only in a certain way.

    The non-ethnic French players are largely of West African descent. For instance despite the presence of Asians residing in France from former French indochinese colonies none of them are on the team.

    The French rugby team is also diverse in its own way in that French Polynesian players are vastly over represented though there are none on the soccer team. The large size and strength of Polynesians is of much greater benefit in rugby than soccer.

    The English national team is even more interestingly diverse. Lots black players but no South Asians despite the fact South Asian reside in England in large numbers and have done so for a couple generations. The same is true of East Africans though not in the same numbers. ie Mo farah

    The realities of racial differences are on full display at the World Cup, but it is only permissible to learn certain lessons about diversity.

    • Replies: @BB753
    , @Erik Sieven
    , @Hail
  14. Diversity is the flip side of global warming. Global warming is responsible for a myriad of bad things, and diversity is the cause of a myriad of good things. First ethnic restaurants, and now a World Cup.

  15. @Yak-15

    Brutal, but follows the same logic.

  16. @Achilles

    In 1934 and 1938 as ‘Mandatory Palestine’ and in 1970. Not bad for its size and the fact that it now has to compete in the Euro and not Asian area.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup

    Since you asked.

  17. I just can’t wait to read the (((editorials))) in tomorrow’s major papers. I suspect a good fraction will address this very topic in a manner that I am bound to find very agreeable.

  18. @Anonymous

    Unless much like France’s last glory run from 1998-2000, the tournaments afterward are won by teams of predominantly white players.

    From 2004 to 2014, teams of actual Europeans won the Euro Cup and World cup.

    Greece
    Italy
    Spain
    Spain
    Spain
    Germany

  19. davosbane says: • Website

    God. What a dumb bitch. France received 2 very favorable calls early in the game. Might have been completely different outcome.

  20. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    More likely Senegal, which has a pretty good side in its own right. (I’m not one of the hipster neckbeard fans from Portlandia S.S. referred to in earlier post. I follow the game about an inch deep; I just like parroting the term for squad or team: “side”.) LOL

    Going forward, I wonder which the average Parisian-in-the-street prefers: Fewer World Cup Championships or becoming Senegal-Nord? (Those are really the only two choices.)

  21. @Anthony Wayne

    There were very few MENAs in the World Cup on European teams. Chadli on Belgium, Khedira on Germany (and he was awful btw, there’s a reason he and Ozil were benched for the second game)…Dumaz on Sweden?

    All of France’s “diversity” came from Sub-Saharan Africa.

  22. Lagertha says:
    @Yak-15

    Exactly. I can’t stand people who never played soccer, or cared about it until now, chiming in…especially women. I played soccer at the highest level women could, back in the late 70′s, for what it is worth.

    I was so impressed with Croatia – watched most of the games in the EU these past weeks. Iceland hung in there, but folded. Of all the teams, as far as their grit/creativity/pulse, nothing came close to Croatia (smallest population of a nation in the finals, BTW) or Japan for creativity and stealth. All the soccer heads I spoke with, Japan & Croatia were the scene stealers. Many teams, particularly EU & LA, were just so full of drama queens….I needed an air sickness bag with all those babies…and their multi-million dollar salaries on their “official teams.” It was boooo for me today – I wanted all the “old Europe” countries out. You can’t always get what you want. But, at least Joko won & Kerber.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  23. istevefan says:
    @anony-mouse

    In 1934 and 1938 as ‘Mandatory Palestine’

    That is not really saying much. I don’t think football was played by as many nations then and it wasn’t as competitive. Heck, the USA finished in 3rd place in 1930! Competition must have been pretty slack at that time.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  24. anon[330] • Disclaimer says:

    The nobel prizes awarded to white South Africans is clear evidence that white immigration to Africa changed the “culture” of Africa – for the better.

  25. davosbane says:
    @Yak-15

    Lol. Great Reply. She deserves to be called out on her logic.

  26. syonredux says:

    Trump talks about how immigrants have ruined Europe, but France wouldn’t have won the #WorldCup without them

    Selling one’s birthright for a mess of pottage…..

  27. anon[330] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andy

    The immigration of millions of American blacks to Israel would enable that country to field a world-class basketball team for the first time, and be clear evidence that African American immigration to Israel changed the “culture” of that country – for the better.

  28. Brazil is the most successful soccer nation, with a demographic composition part Mediterranean Caucasian, part Meztizo, part Mulatto, part African.

    Essentially top European soccer clubs and countries are now emulating the Brazilian demographic, typical part Caucasian, part African, part Arabian.

    Its certainly a winning combination. Intra-National diversity substituting for Inter National diversity.

    No full blood African or Arabian teams made the knockout phase. The Latin American teams flopped.

  29. @KyleCartman

    Just off the top of my head, MENAs on European teams:

    -France:

    Fekir
    Rami (engaged to Pamela Anderson of all people)
    Mbappe (half Algerian)

    -Belgium:

    Chadli
    Fellaini

    -Germany:

    Ozil
    Khedira
    Gundogan

    Im just gonna keep it to those three countries and only to players I can recall off the top of my head.

    There is also a big phenomenon of European-born MENA players playing for their countries of origin. I think a majority of the Moroccan team is composed of players born outside Morocco. Iran had a Swedish born player. etc.

  30. Rob McX says:

    Sport is chauvinism emasculated. E.g. la belle France can give perfidious Albion a beating (or vice versa), but with both countries using Africans imported to replace their own people. It’s a surreal spectacle.

    • Replies: @Hail
  31. @eded

    He who praises diversity praises imperialism.

    True in the small.

    French imperialism was a mixed bag. British imperialism was a benefit to the colonies. German and Belgian imperialism as not good. Portuguese and Spanish imperialism – more-or-less bad. Contrary assertions are dishonest. We are beneficiaries of the Brits. Those who disagree are almost all Leftists. And given that hundreds of millions dead are not sufficient for Leftists, billions dead won’t be either. The sh!th0l3s that former colonies have become without imperial guidance testify to the efficacy of British imperial good government.

    Leftism, as Corvinus has repeatedly demonstrated, is multi-dimensionally defective.

  32. Iberiano says:
    @Jackson

    Reminds me of combat sports. Given that black males outnumber white men by something like 10,000 to one on the planet, there should not be ANY white men winning any combat sport (let’s not even get into strongman/powerlifting), yet Wladimir Klitchko was arguably (and statistically) the greatest HW boxer of all time, and until last week, there was not really any credible black HW MMA material either (who beat a Croatian American who already was the greatest HW MMA champ with the most defenses IIRC).

    • Troll: AndrewR
  33. @KyleCartman

    Ah, I see. I didn’t exactly watch, just heard/read the crowing about muslims on the teams. I guess they’re SSA muslims?

    • Replies: @BB753
  34. denjae says:

    Funny how parents recently in from somewhere else,

    conveniently have a kid who can really play futbol / football

    Massillon OH and Valdosta GA come to mind.

  35. Totally worth destroying your nation if it means you get to win a big sportsball game. /s

  36. Anon[382] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jackson

    Lol. homogeneous, white Croatia nearly beats a team full of intercontinental mercenary ringers representing a country 15 times its size. What a rebuke of Trump.

    Only 15X its size? At what point do we take the population of Africa into account?

    • Replies: @Iberiano
  37. @ElitistSettler

    I just can’t wait to read the (((editorials))) in tomorrow’s major papers. I suspect a good fraction will address this very topic in a manner that I am bound to find very agreeable.

    Maybe. But we will find a way to deport you. And you have earned your deportation.

  38. @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Sorry to jump a convo, but all New World colonization was, on balance, good.

  39. @syonredux

    Selling one’s birthright for a mess of pottage…..

    That is a generous assessment.

  40. Hockamaw says:
    @Yak-15

    The US would not have won so many world basketball tournaments without slavery.

    Slavery was good.

    Top comment. Well done.

  41. @istevefan

    The real change will have occurred when French doctors start prescribing 12 year old virgins to HIV positive patients as a cure.

  42. @ElitistSettler

    There is also a big phenomenon of European-born MENA players playing for their countries of origin.

    Let us agree to send you, and them, back to their country of origin. What do you think interloper?

  43. @fred c dobbs

    “Samuel Umtiti was born in Cameroon, Steve Mandanda in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Paul Pogba’s parents are from Guinea, N’Golo Kante’s from Mali. Blaise Matuidi’s parents are from Angola and came to France via DR Congo. Kylian Mbappe has an Algerian mother and a Cameroonian father. Presnel Kimpembe and Steven Nzonzi’s fathers are Congolese. Corentin Tolisso’s dad is from Togo. The list goes on.”

    Well, they’re almost all in the Congo Basin. This is from Kersey’s piece at Vdare. They’re pan-African!

    The French team was notoriously fractured prior to this year, famous for a mutiny against their French coach in the 2010 tournament, refusing to practice, etc.

    An all-French team might make up in esprit de corps what they lose in vibrancy.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
  44. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Africolonization of France. Africans take over French sports, take the trophy, and blacks in France lay claim to France as their own.

  45. Tiny Duck says:

    The people are waking up

    The “west” belongs to all people. No one is illegal. The white man tried to keep ok the world but justice will be done

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  46. BB753 says:
    @eded

    That’s correct, South Asians are nowhere to be seen in British soccer teams, despite there being probably as many of them as Caribbeans and Africans. Even Sikhs are unathletic.

    • Replies: @donut
  47. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Many are black .

    So, is that an admittance that races are different?

    Btw, while blacks do provide more sports victories, what about more crime, violence, and overall degradation of culture?

    Of course, Ioffe wouldn’t want such enrichment for Israel.

    Native French have been denied the chance to represent their own nation.

    Sure, France won, but with Africans. Frenchmen lost out to Africans.

    If Vietnam gets a bunch of blacks to play for Vietnam, did Vietnam win>

  48. @Cloudbuster

    Yes, and the losing team’s fans, with some reason to be upset, gave their team an appreciative ovation from an orderly crowd.

    Any excuse for mayhem. It’s why the vibrant love the ‘Purge’ movies so much.

  49. BB753 says:
    @Anthony Wayne

    This time, there seemed to be far fewer Algerians and Muslims in general, even among the Blacks on the team.

  50. Mr. Anon says:
    @syonredux

    This #WorldCup has been clear evidence that immigration has changed the “culture” of Europe—for the better.

    According to Julia Ioffe, Europe only has a quote-unquote-culture. Not a real culture, just a so-called culture.

  51. Tiny Duck says:

    Man Men of Color sure are superior physical specimens and athletes!

    No wonder white girls want their seed.

    No wonder you guys are so hateful. You know that you cannot compete with real men

  52. megabar says:

    I’m not a soccer fan, so I don’t understand the game very well. Are the distributions of different ethnicities on the team similar to American football, where each position has its own characteristic set of races (e.g. mostly Africans for speed positions, a mix of Blacks and Whites for strength positions, and more Whites for technique positions)? Or is it more random mixing?

    If the former, I could imagine that a pure African team could actually be at a disadvantage in terms of raw talent. Either way, I suspect African and Middle Eastern nations do a poorer job at identifying and developing talent.

  53. I liked how all the rioters destroying Paris were swarthy “youths” enriching the culture.

    • Replies: @Barnard
  54. @Lagertha

    I know next to nothing about soccer but I too enjoyed watching the Japanese play. Don’t know why, just that they played with Spirit (but they were visibly deflated when Belgium rallied from that deficit just when the the Nipponese thought that they had them in the bag).

  55. ‘Sixteen of the 23 players on France’s team come from families that recently immigrated to the country, most of them from Africa. Seven players are Muslim. A testament to how immigrants enrich a country’s culture.’

    Assuming soccer represents your notion of the pinnacle of cultural achievement, that would be true.

  56. Anonym says:
    @ThirdWorldSteveReader

    Forget race mixing, this is the best example of what deep Brazilification looks like.

    Until you get too Brazilified to the point where you struggle to pay your debts because your institution building ability wanes along with your will to sacrifice.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-05/brazil-s-economic-czar-is-gloomy-about-dramatic-situation

    Did that have something to do with the soccer? Maybe. I can imagine that Germany would be having something of a national crisis of confidence with Merkel at the helm. Now, France has issues with migrants as well but Macron seems to be more self-confident about Europe.

    It certainly seems that the big advantage in soccer goes to those with the institution-building chops to create a large economy to fund football teams and national teams as a by-product, descended as they are from people who have made an agricultural society function with a harsh winter for a few thousand years. Those countries can gain a small advantage employing those who are descended from those who were best able to run from elephants, lions, tigers and the like.

    The ethnic composition of France would encourage colonialism in other countries. If your goal is to get more countries on a level footing with France, ethnic French should breed a surplus population and migrate to non-white, SSA countries. And of course, that’s what the goal of every country in the world should be, to win at soccer.

  57. A testament to how immigrants enrich a country’s culture.

    Really though, it’s much more likely that non-immigrant-background Frenchmen would have enjoyed their triumph even more had it been achieved by players of non-immigrant background. So it’s actually a testament to how immigrants impoverish a country’s culture.

    Oh, and it’s also a testament to immigration reporters’ willingness to clutch at straws.

    • Replies: @Altai
  58. Arclight says:

    Trading away your culture and standard of living for World Cup glory is a small price to pay, amirite?

  59. O/T: I’ve been away from this blog for a while, so I scrolled through entries to a month ago, but I didn’t notice any discussion of Israel’s “Nation-State Bill”, which among other things would make it legal for Jewish communities to specifically exclude non-Jews (ie legal segregation). Apparently the latest version of that bill will drop that clause – but only because of fears it would make Israel look bad, not because it didn’t enjoy widespread popular support.

  60. If Croatia won, these same pundits would just flip their argument to racial discrimination, disparate impact, the legacy of Jim Crow, Emmett Till, and invisible backpacks.

  61. In what way will France be a better country tomorrow because it won the World Cup today? Would liberals argue that diverse Alabama is better than uncovered, liberal states like Vermont or Oregon because it’s football t am has won, like 8 of the last 10 NCAA football championships?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  62. istevefan says:

    I have a question for any old timers. Currently folks like Ann Coulter are tweeting out about the riots in France following the world cup. The few images I’ve seen appear to show non-whites in France trashing the place. I haven’t seen any whites, though statistically there must be some.

    Ann and others are immediately being attacked by the left who point out that we have similar riots in the USA after a Super Bowl, NCAA championship, etc. They cited the recent riots in Philly in February, to which the right-wingers pointed out that those rioters were mostly black.

    Not to be outdone the lefties brought up the 2011 Vancouver riots following the Stanley Cup. It doesn’t get much whiter than that.

    So my question to the old timers is when did riots start to become part of celebrating a championship in the USA? I have never heard of NY Yankee fans rioting in the 1950s. I’ve never heard about Notre Dame football fans rioting back in the Knute Rockne days.

    So when did Americans start to riot after a sports championship? Is there a specific point in time or one episode that triggered it?

    Also, did this originate in the white community or the black community?

    If we did not have such riots in the past, is there a correlation to such behavior and losing the dominant white character of the nation?

  63. Beckow says:

    But the guy who won the game for France for the Latino referee, maybe Macron promised him a visa. After he delivered the set play and the penalty, he joyfully joined the multicultural African team (playing as ‘France’) in stalling the game and frowning at everyone. He will fit right in with the French.

  64. Dr. X says:

    IDGAF about multimillionaire sportsball Negroes who are supposed to represent “us.” The black French soccer team is no different than American football in this regard… you have black athletes, many of whom are criminals, being cheered on by morbidly obese white men drinking beer and acting like children over a meaningless, contrived game.

    I used to watch football… not obsessively, but I enjoyed watching the game and found it interesting. Today, it’s just too politicized, too black, too ghetto. I haven’t watched any professional sports game in over 20 years.

    The only sports I care about are ones I’m personally participating in… life’s way too short to waste it sitting in front of a television watching Negroes in spandex pants chase a ball on Astroturf.

  65. Lagertha says:

    Croatia has been the “new Italy,” for over 5 years. Croatia, Slovenia (Melania’s home), Serbia and Armenia are the “new cool countries” to travel to, if you have been everywhere else. Croatia has been popular for Scandi young people for over 5 years – it’s cheap with great weather and great waterfront cafes’ and hotels. Croatia has a cool Rock Festival, and a motorcycle festival in August.

    Every country outside of France, wanted Croatia to win (they have the prettiest president!). Most European countries hate France. And, most Euro people will still opt to travel to Croatia than human shit-filled streets of Paris/French smaller cities, haha! Sheesh, so bummed Croatia didn’t win!

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  66. BenKenobi says:
    @syonredux

    “It profits a man nothing to sell his soul for the world. But for negroes?!
    - A Man For All Seasons

  67. Karl says:
    @Andy

    1 Andy > so Ioffe should be in favor of Israel importing millions of Africans

    well, that’s the problem….. she is.

    I don’t think you can show me an American Jew who was allowed to get near the actual levers of state power in Jerusalem. Golda Meir, maybe? But she came over as a kid.

    Whereas, a Moldovan guy is running the Defense Ministry

    I understand that the distinction is lost on Andy. RonUnz is not sending his best when it comes to the JQ.

    • Replies: @Jackson
    , @Mr. Anon
    , @Marcus
  68. BenKenobi says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    One of Mark Steyn’s old chestnuts is that the difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic is their repsective French and English heritages.

    • Replies: @donut
    , @The Alarmist
    , @Anon
  69. When are they going to attack (again) the Tour de France? Why, oh why, isn’t the TdF and pro cycling more diverse? https://youtu.be/600xQer7UvY

    Yesterday was Bastille Day. Phil Liggett lives!

  70. Lot says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    “British imperialism was a benefit to the colonies.”

    In North America, Hong Kong/Singapore, and parts of Africa I agree.

    The biggest case, India, British colonization was economically a disaster. The oldest case, Ireland, was also very bad for the Irish.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @YetAnotherAnon
  71. @istevefan

    Blacks celebrating Chicago Bulls Championships is my recollection for the start of urban sports fan mayhem.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Bulls_Championship_riots

  72. One gets the sense from this year’s commentary that every country’s team should look exactly the same, so that there will no longer be any point in organizing teams by country.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  73. wren says:

    This #WorldCup has been clear evidence that immigration has changed the “culture” of Europe — full stop.

    • Replies: @prusmc
  74. Lot says:

    This little French girl won’t be celebrating the Afro-French World Cup game because two years and one day ago she was one of the 86 people murdered by an Afro-Frenchman.

    Nor this American and his son, also among the people murdered that day.

    The culture-enricher who ran them all over came to France, despite having no skills and mental problems, by marrying his first cousin.

    • Replies: @trelane
    , @Dante
  75. Anon[382] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    The biggest case, India, British colonization was economically a disaster.

    That is extremely dubious.

    The oldest case, Ireland, was also very bad for the Irish.

    No, it wasn’t. The Irish population soared under British rule.

  76. zylonet says:

    In a quasi sport that is primarily of interest to white men, F1 has rocketed to unimaginable technical heights. F1 proves that immigration is unnecessary if you want peak civilization. The British men and maybe ladies, who design and manufacture Mercedes F1 engines have reached 50% thermal efficiency in their modern F1 engines. This is staggering. Every few years the rules keep getting more strict but the engineering in the sport reaches higher levels. American Gene Haas who makes advanced machine tools and started an F1 team said that he simply cannot believe the level of technology (and he is buying everything not running a true team). The aerodynamics in F1 must surely be the most advanced in the entire world (google F1 front wing). This is all done with nearly 100% native populations or with mixed white populations and only a small fraction of non-European stock. Many of these teams are surely well beyond companies like SpaceX in terms of pushing the envelope. Where are the Julie Ioffe’s on F1 and Le Mans prototype racing: activities that interested men who love both physics and sport; i.e smart dudes? Red Bull and Aston Martin are building a road car that will have 1,000 hp and weigh 2,000 pounds and corner at 3.5gs. Surely they are zero Congolese in this monumental tribute to physics; maybe a MENA, but few. These are all fun activities that meld adventure and tech. Ioffe says the world is better because the lowest barrier to entry game is dominated by the immigrant stock. What does it say then when zero of the target immigrants are found in F1?

  77. It’s definitely a victory for diversity. But seeing as how there are no ethnic French on that team, it doesn’t look like a victory for Frenchmen.

  78. tanabear says:

    But at Wimbledon today a European beat an African. So what does this say about today’s conventional wisdom? Hahaha.

  79. @istevefan

    Dunno the answer to your question but I seem to recall fans rioting in downtown Denver when the Avalanche won the Stanley Cup over twenty years ago. Presumably the rioters were mostly white.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  80. JimB says:

    I’m sure Chechens would make fearsome soccer players if only the US would give mass immigration from Chechnya a chance.

  81. anon[330] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    I don’t have a definitive answer to that, but my impression is that 60′s civil rights and anti-war demonstrations, and riots, made street rioting a popular meme. After that people were more likley to riot at sports celebrations, just because. If it is like all other violent crime it likely has a disproportionately black face.

  82. ‘Personally I was glad to see the outpouring of anti-Semitism,’ says [Julia Ioffe] targeted by haters

    A week after the Anti-Defamation League released a report on the frightening trend of anti-Semitic tweets aimed at Jewish journalists, one of those journalists, Julia Ioffe, said she was “personally glad to see the outpouring of antisemitism” because it restored Jews’ status as a persecuted minority.

    personally I was kind of glad to see the outpouring of antisemitism, because for a long time I was very frustrated by the discussion on kind of the liberal side of the political spectrum, where Jews, like Israel, were no longer seen as the underdog, no longer seen as the persecuted minority, in fact, this kind of scurrying line of anti-Semitic stereotype of us as the establishment, and people who run and control everything…. I had black friends, for example, black intellectuals who say, “Our issue is the more important one, we are the persecuted minority, you’re part of the establishment, you are white,”

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Big Bill
  83. @istevefan

    That is not really saying much. I don’t think football was played by as many nations then and it wasn’t as competitive. Heck, the USA finished in 3rd place in 1930! Competition must have been pretty slack at that time.

    It took three weeks to cross the ocean. The 1930 tournament was held in Uruguay, and few European teams participated.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  84. @Yak-15

    Darn, already used my LOL for the hour.

  85. @fred c dobbs

    I was deployed in Senegal in the ’80s and spent some time in the local bars with the Parisian elite, who absolutely loved the place. I’m sure they are all for Senegalese migration to Paris. NOT!

  86. trelane says:
    @Lot

    I’m so proud of the French for having Africans win the World Cup for them. It must be so satisfying for them, like that satisfaction the Frenchman gets when a black man gives his wife an orgasm. It’s so very special. Vive Le France!

    • Replies: @Benjaminl
  87. @istevefan

    So my question to the old timers is when did riots start to become part of celebrating a championship in the USA? I have never heard of NY Yankee fans rioting in the 1950s. I’ve never heard about Notre Dame football fans rioting back in the Knute Rockne days.

    So when did Americans start to riot after a sports championship? Is there a specific point in time or one episode that triggered it?

    Americans never started to riot after a championship. It’s just certain people who do it because that’s who they are, like UGA fans. What did Larry Munson say after the 92-yard Belue-to-Scott TD against Florida in 1980?

    “You know this game has always been called the world’s greatest cocktail party — do you know what’s going to happen here tonight? And up at St. Simon’s and Jekyll Island and all those places where all those Dawg people have got these condominiums for four days? Man, is there going to some property destroyed tonight.”

  88. eah says:
    @eah

  89. @eded

    that’s the central point the conventional wisdom doesn’t recognize. I wonder whether Arabs in France really feel “they” won

  90. Dr. Doom says:

    As riots and looting continue for the sixth day after the World Cup Victory, President Macron is now going on holiday as the Presidential Palace hunkers down for the glorious multicultural festival.
    An African American dressed as Napoleon is now saying he’s the Emperor of Scotland.
    Fraternity. Egalite. Riot Police. Viva Le Ruins.

  91. Dante says:
    @Lot

    Well said, And to the (((msm))) trying to equate Sporting success with mass immigration as a positive well that ship has sailed, Europeans are shifting to the right and no amount of msm propaganda is changing that. When Trump says Europe is being changed he knows full well that the silent majorities in European countries agree and are voting accordingly. Our treacherous ((( elites ))) are losing control of the discourse.

  92. Anon[329] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    There’s a theory that Jews have an inclination to try to provoke anti-Semitism in order to generate ingroup consciousness and help to segregate away the goyim.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @Anon
  93. @Song For the Deaf

    Sports rioting after winning a professional championship seems to have gotten started in Detroit after the Pistons won the 1990 NBA title. Nothing much happened when the Chicago Bulls won in 1991, but when they repeated in 1992, there was widespread looting including yuppies breaking into Stuart Brent’s bookstore on Michigan Ave. and helping themselves to coffee table art books. The next year in Chicago there were cops on horses everywhere but there was still some rioting.

    Chicago came close to major riots both immediately after the 1986 Super Bowl and during the parade a few days later, but the extreme cold kept the chaos limited. But weird stuff happened like a high school band being attacked by a mob during the victory parade and having their instruments bent.

    • Replies: @O. Zerk
  94. @anony-mouse

    Your own cite disproves your claim that Israel qualified for the 1934 or 1938 World Cup. They went 0-4 in qualifying those years.

    • Replies: @Bill jones
  95. @zylonet

    Isn’t there a great F1 driver who is half black?

  96. @Jorge Soros

    Hey, the U. of Oregon got a ton of money from Nike’s Phil Knight to upgrade football and made it to the NCAA final game a few years ago.

  97. eah says:
    @eah
    • Replies: @Alfa158
  98. Jackson says:
    @Karl

    If Ioffe says she’s in favor of mass immigration to Israel it’s only because she knows Israel won’t let that happen. This rhetoric is common among immigrants to the West.

    • Agree: Marcus
    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Anonymous
  99. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tiny Duck

    We must secure the existence of our waterfowl and a future for white ducklings.

  100. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:

    Yep.

    Let us see:

    The massacre of nigh on 100 pop concert fans.
    Another near hundred festival celebrators mowed down dead by a truck.
    An elderly Catholic priest slaughtered like a sacrificial goat at his own altar.

    The apparent ‘real’ threat of nuclear power plants being used to irradiate half of France.
    Massive fiscal transfer.
    The certainty of oncoming bloody civil war.
    A massive surly anti-French anti-white nasty, entitled minority (rapidly growing to majority).

    Etc etc.

    All but a small price to pay for winning a soccer game.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  101. @eded

    “The European countries with significant numbers of racial minorities do so largely because they possessed overseas territories.”

    Like Sweden, Norway and Denmark, I suppose.

    Germany had colonies in what is now Namibia, Togo, Cameroon and Tanzania. Germany’s full of minorities, but hardly any from those places.

  102. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Actually, it was the late, great Liverpool FC manager, back in the glory days, Bill Shankly, who provides the money quote.

    ‘Football’, he opined, ‘is not a matter of life or death – it’s far more important than that’.

  103. @Anonymous

    “France already won it before, 20 years ago, when those sparkly immigrants were toddlers. “

    That French team also had a hefty African component. And the Guardian and BBC were praising the “new France” just as they will now. Not long after that the car-burning began, and has continued off and on ever since.

    There was trouble in Paris after the semi-final, and again after the final. Let’s just say there weren’t scenes like this in London in 1966.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @The Alarmist
  104. Dr. Doom says:

    The White Man may have made technology. They may have sent rockets into space. They may have revolutionized communications. But if the World Cup has taught us anything, its that blacks that cannot feed themselves or build safe societies can at least play with a ball Made in China.

    The Chinese remind you that No Blacks Need Apply.

  105. sb says:
    @anony-mouse

    Israel or it’s antecedent -British Mandated Palestine – have qualified only once -1970-when they qualified from the Asia Oceania zone – which then comprised only 6 countries : Australia, New Zealand, Israel , Rhodesia (!), Japan and South Korea

    That’s one successful campaign out of 20 attempts

    This information is easy to find

  106. @Lot

    Irish colonisation was essentially a Norman, not British, project. And the first Normans came by invitation of an Irish lord who wanted some efficient mercenaries. Hengist and Horsa all over again.

    Wiki

    “By the 12th century, Ireland was divided politically into a shifting hierarchy of petty kingdoms and over-kingdoms. Power was exercised by the heads of a few regional dynasties vying against each other for supremacy over the whole island. One of these men, King Diarmait Mac Murchada of Leinster was forcibly exiled by the new High King, Ruaidri mac Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair of the Western kingdom of Connacht. Fleeing to Aquitaine, Diarmait obtained permission from Henry II to recruit Norman knights to regain his kingdom. The first Norman knight landed in Ireland in 1167, followed by the main forces of Normans, Welsh and Flemings. Several counties were restored to the control of Diarmait…”

  107. Pericles says:
    @Yak-15

    After all, is there anything more majestic than a seven foot black man travelling across the court, ball snugly palmed, to elevate himself nine, ten, eleven … a full twelve, yes twelve, inches off the floor to plunk the ball into the basket and then dangle from the rim for a long, long while?

    • LOL: Stan d Mute
  108. Pericles says:
    @anony-mouse

    In 1934 and 1938 as ‘Mandatory Palestine’

    Your own cite disproves your claim that Israel qualified for the 1934 or 1938 World Cup. They went 0-4 in qualifying those years.

    When was Israel founded anyway?

    (… Jewing intensifies …)

  109. Pericles says:
    @istevefan

    Who can forget the Vancouver hockey riots?

  110. @ScarletNumber

    Israel had not yet been vomited on the people of Palestine in 1934 or 1938.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  111. donut says:
    @BB753

    I get the impression South Asians are big on Cricket , it seems to be popular in the Caribean as well .

    https://cricket.yahoo.net/

    • Replies: @BB753
    , @Corn
  112. George says:

    If NATO didn’t blow Yugoslavia to bits they might have the population base to field a superior team. So why can’t the Serbo Croat nations field a combined team? The whole world cup concept of small nations competing against larger is sort of stupid.

    As to the immigration argument the Croats could have achieved the same thing as France by fielding a Croat-Senegalese combined team, without any unpleasant colonial legacy or post colonial population transfers.

    Actually the French team is neo colonial. As usual the Africans are permitted a certain non intellectual role for example sports but if they mouth off the system comes down on them. In the US kneeling can end your sports career. In France an African comedian Dieudonne is regularly prosecuted for hate crimes.

  113. donut says:
    @Tiny Duck

    You’re lazy . Make an effort would you ?

    • Replies: @Truth
  114. @ben tillman

    The Depression did a number on trans-Atlantic sports. It had been big back in the Roaring Twenties (e.g., “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” is set on an ocean liner conveying the 1924 US Olympic team to Paris for the Games).

    For example, American golfers increasingly went to the British Open on steamships in the 1920s, but Americans largely dropped out of The Open once the Depression started Walter Hagen went 8 times in the 1920s but only twice in the 1930s. Hogan and Snead each made the trip once in their career primes. (Okay, twice for Snead, 1937 and his 1946 victory, then 3 times in old age after jets were introduced.)

    Jet airline service started at the end of the 1950s and Arnold Palmer’s trip to the British Open in 1960 made it fashionable for American golfers to plan on going each year.

    International sports as a default rather than as an occasional expedition really starts around 1960 with jetliners.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
  115. notanon says:

    winning a sportsball game != enriching culture

  116. @George

    Maybe the Serbs and the Croats prefer having separate teams?

    The funny thing about the US decision to send a Dream Team of NBA pro superstars to the 1992 Olympics onward was that the main rivals, the Soviets and the Yugoslavs, had fallen apart. The 1988 Soviet team that beat the American college stars led by David Robinson fair and square had been dominated by tall Lithuanians like 7’3″ Sabonis. The Yugoslavs, winner of the 1980 Olympic basketball gold over the Soviets in Moscow while the US was boycotting, broke up into constituent parts, which are still pretty good but not as good as they would have as Yugoslavia.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  117. Tyrion 2 says: • Website

    As far as I can tell, this is a phenomenon of progressive women thinking that patriotic men really are so dumb and facile that we’d find winning a World Cup to be an acceptable trade-off for losing your country.

    Or perhaps Julia Ioffe is just bizarrely stupid?

    Nevermind that Croatia were the better team in many respects and that their population is tiny. If anything, the lesson of the last couple of decades of World Cups is that Western Asabiyah is to the value of population as 3 is to 1.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @Clyde
  118. notanon says:
    @eah

    We are never going to hear the end of this.

    sure we are – this meme will be played back at them forever whenever there is some negative event connected to immigration

    • Replies: @eah
  119. AndrewR says:
    @eded

    I have no clue where you’re getting your information. Sweden certainly didn’t colonize Somalia. Germany and Netherlands didn’t colonize Turkey (or Afghanistan). People from poor countries often want to go to wealthy countries. The colonial past, or lack thereof, is largely irrelevant to anyone’s decision.

  120. donut says:
    @BenKenobi

    Huh ? The Dominican Republic was a Spanish colony . Haiti was a french colony until the African slaves revolted and won their independence and subsequently turned the place into the shithole it is today . The Dominican Republic is 73% Mestizo 16% White and 11% Negro . Haiti is 95% African . The Angels in Heaven could have colonized Haiti and it would still be a shithole with that ethnic make up .
    Whether it was the French , Spanish , Belgians or Portuguese makes no difference , any former colony of a European Catholic country tends more toward shithole status than those colonized by The Northern European Protestant countries except the former German colonies in Africa which were lost to Germany anyway after the First WW . You just can’t put lipstick on a pig .

  121. BB753 says:
    @donut

    But why are South Asians useless at any other sport? At school Paki kids play soccer like everybody else, but not a single one has made it to the pros.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  122. AndrewR says:
    @Tyrion 2

    “patriotic men really are so dumb and facile that we’d find winning a World Cup to be an acceptable trade-off for losing your country”

    Where’s the lie?

    Or do you define “patriotic men” to mean the tiny, negligible percentage of men who think like you?

  123. AndrewR says:
    @Anon

    That’s a “theory” like gravity is a theory.

  124. Anonymous[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Isn’t there a great F1 driver who is half black?

    Yep, Lewis Hamilton for Mercedes. F1 is staggeringly boring because, as the joke goes, it’s a two-car race (i.e., only two teams win). Then again, Europeans like soccer so maybe they just like boring things.

    Indy car has much greater parity and is much more exciting (e.g., yesterday’s Toronto Indy Car race). And of course the engineering is American (i.e., top-notch b/c it’s the same people who gave the world the airplane and landed men on the moon). And it feels American (even with a mix of American, Brazilian, French, English, Aussie, & Kiwi drivers).

  125. Big Bill says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    [P]ersonally I was kind of glad to see the outpouring of antisemitism, because for a long time I was very frustrated by the discussion on kind of the liberal side of the political spectrum, where Jews, like Israel, were no longer seen as the underdog, no longer seen as the persecuted minority … I had black friends, for example, black intellectuals who say, “Our issue is the more important one, we are the persecuted minority, you’re part of the establishment, you are white,”

    The eternal intersectionality struggle within the left. I am pleased she is so honest about it.

    I don’t think Jewish preeminence in the victim hierarchy can possibly last. Really, how can any group be the “boss” underdog while simultaneously having the highest level of education and the greatest personal income in the country? “Golf course” or “Tweet” antisemitism is very weak rhetorical tea when compared to having one’s baby ripped from one’s arms by brutal, slavering storm troopers. Better she should make aliyah and face a real existential struggle.

  126. jim jones says:
    @ThreeCranes

    Those two nuclear bombs don`t seem to have damaged the Japanese at all:

  127. @Pericles

    When the f’n “Canucks” LOST the Stanley Cup. LOL.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
  128. Corn says:
    @Yak-15

    Please tweet that to Julia Ioffe

  129. Iberiano says:
    @Anon

    been saying this for years (see above post of mine). Also, why is it when it comes to sports, or anything else really, the socio-political discussions about athletic ability are always a comparison of the smallest minority on the planet (whites) against the second largest majority (blacks), and not about how poorly Asians or subcontinental Asians perform?

  130. Clyde says:
    @Tyrion 2

    As far as I can tell, this is a phenomenon of progressive women thinking that patriotic men really are so dumb and facile that we’d find winning a World Cup to be an acceptable trade-off for losing your country.

    As in women welcoming in the conquering forces. Worse than Vichy France where women made the best of reality and bedded the Germans after the conquest. Don’t worry, male European leaders will also tout soccer as one of black immigration benefits. Italy will be be the exception because they are over run with blacks that cannot find a way north into France, Germany, England, more northern nations. Africans seem most at home in France and UK.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  131. Mr. Anon says:

    Or perhaps Julia Ioffe is just bizarrely stupid?

    No, she is deceitful and malicious. She intends harm to peoples whom she does not consider her own. She thinks Israel has a culture – rather than merely a “culture”, unlike her view of Europe or the country of which she is ostensibly a citizen, America. Perhaps you are “bizarrely stupid” for thinking she isn’t. But I rather doubt it.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  132. Gunner says:

    Why are these dumb white girls suddenly interested in sports?

  133. Barnard says:
    @Uilleam yr alban

    I can’t find a story about the riots on CNN’s website. I even typed, “Paris World Cup riots” in their search bar and all it came back with is an opinion piece on how “France’s World Cup win is a victory for immigrants everywhere.” Had to go to the Daily Mail to find the video of Paris being enriched.

  134. Mr. Anon says:
    @Karl

    1 Andy > so Ioffe should be in favor of Israel importing millions of Africans

    well, that’s the problem….. she is.

    She is? Based on what? I bet she isn’t. Although, as Jackson said, even if she were, it would probably just be posturing in the full knowledge that it won’t ever happen.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  135. @YetAnotherAnon

    The ancient Egyptians invited Greeks as mercenaries because their nobility were so busy being spiritual they couldn’t bother fighting to keep their own independence. Before long, the Greeks took the place over.

    • Replies: @Whiskey
  136. @Steve Sailer

    Jetliners brought the Dodgers and Giants out of New York and in to California. They may have used prop lanes in the late fifties, but they knew the jetliners would replace the prop planes.

    1957 California got the Dodgers and Giants.

    What year in the 1950s was the movie LA Confidential supposed to be?

    • Replies: @Corn
    , @Corn
    , @CJ
  137. @YetAnotherAnon

    They did have a military alliance and history of close relations with Turkey, which stayed neutral even in ww2 until the last minute when the US and Societs pretty much forced them to declare for the allies, so it makes sense for there to have been Turkish workers in that regard.

  138. Marcus says:
    @Karl

    Netanyahu was educated in the US

    • Replies: @Karl
  139. Marcus says:

    The French World Cup team is basically the French Foreign Legion of athletics

    • LOL: Corn
  140. prusmc says: • Website
    @wren

    Seems to me the majority of the rioters in the film were not black. MAYBE the north Africans who I believe are classified as white. Who were they rioting against? Were there large numbers of Croation supporters in those towns? The property and car owners whose openings were damaged or destroyed were they pro-Croatia?

  141. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    You know, I really don’t care about the World Cup, but having players from other countries represent your nation in the contest seems sort of lame. Is there even a requirement for these guys to be French citizens?

    And yes, I feel similar qualms about foreigners playing in the NBA. Do they really represent El Paso or Oklahoma City?

  142. God Bless Marine Le Pen

  143. “An Israeli journalist discovers the fervour in Paris”.

    Warning: the audio’s volume goes THROUGH THE ROOF.

  144. At the French left-globalist, black-box funded, Soros-like blog site, Mediapart, the question is asked:

    How Many Future Mbappé and Kanté Have Drowned in the Mediterranean?

    https://blogs.mediapart.fr/rafik-chekkat/blog/150718/combien-de-futurs-mbappe-et-kante-se-sont-noyes-en-mediterranee

    The question is asked by a Rafik Chekkat (a solidly Gallic name). Thankfully his article is meant to be a wet blanket thrown over anyone who thinks this means Whitey is off the hook for anything. No, Whitey needs to hang his head in shame for how much needs to be done in other domains, how much damage is done to African soccer, etc and so on.

    Globo-homo-progressivism is a church with no chance of redemption for Whitey. The Vibrants are without sin and the Whites are without redemption.

  145. Meanwhile in the French-built streets of Algiers, a man is almost lynched for wearing the French team’s soccer jersey. The crowd was obviously out to celebrate a pan-African win, not a French one:

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
  146. Hail says: • Website

    Julia Ioffe’s ethnic hostility is remarkable.

    A reply that is worth highlighting and perhaps worth “de-irony-izing” (to coin a clumsy word)

    That’s proof indigenous French boys have been discriminated against for decades. Let’s not forget the liberal logic dictating equality of outcomes.

    I think this could be worth proposing unironically and investigating. At some point, there is a tipping point against taking White players; we have seen it in the NFL at many positions and NBA (almost no White-American players anymore). France has presumably also reached such a point.

  147. @Anon

    Irish population grew due to their early adoptance of a potato-based diet, not due to good management by their English overlords. When the potato blight came (which is when the colonial administration could have proved useful), it fell down again.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Altai
  148. Anon[694] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    Detroit Tigers . 1984 World series victory. Look it up .

  149. @Tiny Duck

    Careful, TD … you’re showing yourself for the parody that you are.

  150. @BenKenobi

    Except that Mark Steyn seems to have confused the island nation of Dominica with the former Spanish colony Dominican Republic, which shares the island of Hispaniola with Haiti.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  151. JMcG says:
    @Anon

    The US population has soared under the rule of the global elites. I don’t think you have a persuasive argument there. I’d say the introduction of the potato had more to do with Irish population growth than British rule.

    • Replies: @Anon
  152. @YetAnotherAnon

    Were there any African teams in the World Cup’s qualifer groups? I see none. Is that because they are excluded, or because they have no talent because it has been stripped by the rest of the world?

  153. @George

    So why can’t the Serbo Croat nations field a combined team?

    I think it’s because they still hate each other.

  154. @zylonet

    The future is kicking and screaming at us. Also a loud and alien whine.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
  155. O. Zerk says:
    @Steve Sailer

    There were earlier championship riots by Detroit Tigers fans in 1984 and Montreal Canadiens fans in 1986. In 1993, Kevin Paul Dupont of the Boston Globe wrote that the 1984 incident is “widely considered the start of North American championship rioting,” though it seems mostly forgotten now.

  156. I suppose it’s preaching to the choir here, but since I’ve never seen this reductio anywhere:

    Suppose you can choose the following setups for the world cup:

    1. every player is from the country he represents, and has family there going back at least 300 years

    2. every player is a recently naturalised immigrant to his respective country from Africa, but is 5% better than the next best native player at football

    which world cup is more exciting?

    • Replies: @Karl
    , @Anon
  157. @Jackson

    Without Croatia’s own goal, diverse Team France beat them by only one goal.

  158. Hail says: • Website
    @eded

    The French victory is also interesting in that it is diverse, but only in a certain way.

    The non-ethnic French players are largely of West African descent. For instance despite the presence of Asians residing in France from former French indochinese colonies none of them are on the team.

    There is actually one Southeast Asian, Alphonse Areola, on the France national team roster.

    Subsaharan ancestry outnumbers North African by five-to-one despite something like parity in the population of France itself.

    Another thing to note is the distinct lack of French ancestry, even among the White players. This does suggest to me a possible discrimination effect in which French-ancestry French boys are discouraged from the game.

    Here is the full racial-ancestral breakdown for the France team:

    Racial stock of the France-2018 World Cup team:

    33% White-European ancestry [7.6/23.0]
    —– of which six players (26%) are fully White-European;
    52% Subsaharan African ancestry [11.9/23.0], origins across Francophone Africa
    11% North African ancestry [2.5/23.0], all from Algeria and Morocco
    4% Southeast Asian ancestry [1.0/23.0], from the Philippines

    Seven Muslims (30%) (7.5, 33%, if counting Mbappe, a half-Muslim of unclear affiliation, as 0.5); Muslim players outnumber fully-White-Christian players (six players).

    France national team’s White ancestry (see individual player entries)
    — 23% French ancestry for team [69% of White component incl. mixed players]
    — 9% Other ‘Latin’ countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy) [28% of White component]
    — 1%+ Germany [Griezmann]
    —— Lloris: 0.5 Spain/Catalonia, 0.5 France
    —— Pavard: 1.0 France
    —— Hernandez: 0.5[?] Spain, 0.5[?] France
    —— Giroud: 0.5 Italy, 0.5 France
    —— Griezmann: circa 0.25 German, circa 0.25 French, 0.5 Portugal
    —— Thauvin: 1.0 French
    —— Varane [mixed-race player]: probably around 0.6 French
    —— Tolisso [mixed-race player]: 0.5 French
    —— Nzonzi [mixed-race player]: 0.5 French

    Note: Taking the six full-White players only [26% of the team], French ancestry is 62.5% of these six. The French-ancestral component among the full-White players comprises only 16% of the French ‘national’ team (62.5%*[6/23]). [From here]

    Here is a summarized racial-ancestral analysis for all the European teams at World Cup 2018. The demographics of the Swiss team are in some ways equally as odd as the White-minority French team; Swiss ancestry seems to be a distinct minority on the Swiss national team, with it would seem more Balkan-Muslims than ‘classic’ national-core Swiss-German Protestants on the team.

  159. @YetAnotherAnon

    Talking about “colonisation” of Ireland is grasping, almost propaganda. Ireland was just an integral part of the UK for the past 100+ years before independence, with seats in parliament. It’s one possible interpretation to call it colonised but it’s like saying that Dixie is a US colony or Saxony a Prussian colony.

    • Replies: @Altai
    , @Jack D
    , @Anon
  160. Hail says: • Website
    @Rob McX

    la belle France can give perfidious Albion a beating (or vice versa), but with both countries using Africans imported to replace their own people.

    Steve Sailer says that the World Cup is the ultimate global festival of (and for) nationalism, allowed for one month every four years. But what is nationalism? Does anyone who is referred to as a French nationalist support the majority-Black French national team?

    I suspect that as this century goes on, Europeans’ nationalist feeling in sports will shift towards being distinctly of the Left rather than of the Right (a process that may be well underway), and “nationalists” will, countintuitevely, support other nations’ teams to the extent that they are mainly or wholly European, above their home team if it is majority-African.

    This would be a break with the classic nationalism traditionally understood, but is already on the horizon. (There are political implications far more important that which goals to cheer for.)

    Here is the progress so far towards a possible NBA-ization of national-level European soccer; France and England lead the way.

    Racial Ancestry of each European World Cup team

    Belgium: 70% White, 22% Black, 17% Muslim
    Croatia: 100% White, no Muslims
    Denmark: 90% White, 10% Black
    England: 63% White, 37% Black, No Muslims
    France: 33% White, 52% Black, 33% Muslim
    Germany: 83% White, <7% Black, 11% Muslim
    Iceland: 100% White, 98% Icelandic
    Poland: 100% White, disproportionately from western Poland
    Portugal: 77% White, heavy African-colonial presence with 20% Black
    Russia: 84% White, 16% from Soviet periphery (Central Asia, Caucuses)
    Serbia: 94% White, 4% Muslim, 4% Gypsy
    Spain: 92% White, <6% Black, No Muslims
    Switzerland: 70% White, but only 44% White-Christian
    Sweden: 91% White, <5% Black, No Muslims

  161. @ThreeCranes

    Not a fan in general, but I actually enjoyed Japan vs Senegal, which I watched randomly They seemed very respectful of each other and no flops. Very little complaining to the refs.

  162. The Versailles was opened up for a private tour by 300 people from disadvantaged families. The top photo is “iconic”, as the legacy media loves to say.

    http://www.leparisien.fr/yvelines-78/yvelines-le-chateau-de-versailles-ouvre-ses-portes-aux-familles-defavorisees-16-07-2018-7822758.php

  163. A great victory by the French Foreign Legion.

  164. Brutusale says:
    @Pericles

    The Hongcouver experience brought us a New Rule: you can only riot when you win.

  165. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    OT:

    https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/07/16/most-australians-demand-immigration-halt-as-population-soars/

    Note there is no difference between ALP and Liberal on immigration in their actual governing. Maybe that will change.

  166. Corn says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    I think Steve said once, “No matter how bad your disputes are with your countrymen, never invite foreigners in to tip the scales.”

  167. Brutusale says:
    @It's All Ball Bearings

    Yeah, and that series was heavily influenced by immigration, too. Your talented but pussified Scandis have to score, not stand around getting punched in the face by the tough but 5’9″ Canuck.

    The Sedin Sisters, chortle.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    , @foulkes
  168. @Steve Sailer

    R&D, prototyping, testing, manufacturing, making progressive design refinements, tuning, maintaining and rebuilding an F1 are entirely different than driving one. The drunks who painted my house did not formulate the paint from Sherwin Williams.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  169. Sandmich says:
    @istevefan

    I should point out that in Cleveland they had been waiting generations for a championship of any sort and yet when the Cavs won the NBA title, no riots. I wonder if it has something to do with the odd geography and dispersed neighborhoods? I’m reminded of some of the police scandals in which a riot would probably be justified, and yet again, no riots.

  170. Corn says:
    @donut

    In the city closest to me, Peoria IL there is a cricket club. I believe its membership is almost entirely South Asian engineers and IT guys who work for a local manufacturer and medical facility. They used to have a Pakistani expats vs Indian expats game every year.

  171. Corn says:
    @Gunner

    Soccer brings out the stupid in some Americans

  172. Corn says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    I believe LA Confidential was set in 1953 or 1954. Love that movie.

  173. Corn says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    I believe LA Confidential was set in 1953 or 1954. Love that movie.

  174. Tyrion 2 says: • Website
    @Mr. Anon

    You think that Julia Ioffe believes that she has dedicated her life to hurting everyone but other Jews?

    • Replies: @Anon
  175. Anon[529] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThirdWorldSteveReader

    Surely good British administration had something to do with that.

    • Replies: @ThirdWorldSteveReader
  176. @Cagey Beast

    Sociology now. I see no females in that video. why not?

  177. Karl says:
    @Marcus

    134 Marcus > Netanyahu was educated in the US

    he spent 3 years attending a public high school in Philadelphia when his Pops was employed there as a scientist

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Anonymous
  178. Anon[529] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG

    The rise in the US population is primarily attributable to foreign migrants and their offspring. Ethnic Americans are dying out under the globalist regime. Not so with Ireland when it was part of Britain. That population increase was largely ethnic Irish.

  179. Anon[529] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Self-awareness is not a strong point among ethnocentric Jews. She still intends harm.

  180. Benjaminl says:
    @trelane

    Today I learned that paternity testing is illegal in France unless a judge approves. It’s literally state-sanctioned cuckoldry.

    • Replies: @res
    , @Anon
    , @Wilkey
  181. Wilkey says:

    “If Ioffe says she’s in favor of mass immigration to Israel it’s only because she knows Israel won’t let that happen. This rhetoric is common among immigrants to the West.”

    Yes. It’s not much of a threat to demand that Jewish open borders pundits state their support for open borders for Israel. Occasionally you’ll trip up on of the dumber ones, like Jennifer Rubin. The really stupid obnoxious ones, like Podhoretz, will just call you anti-Semitic. The rest are smart enough that they’ll say of course they support open borders for Israel, too, knowing full well that it doesn’t mean a damn thing since Israel’s government and people aren’t stupid enough to actually listen to them. Israelis know these guys are just making an argument to full the goyischekopfs.

  182. Corvinus says:

    Yes, I NOTICED two women, among many people of color, noted how “diverse” European soccer teams were at the World Cup, and that France’s victory is in part due to their infusion of invaders, I mean immigrants. But their sentiments it just isn’t today’s conventional wisdom regarding the impact of immigrants in different facets of life, whether it be on the pitch or in the laboratory.

    https://voxeu.org/article/immigrants-and-innovation-us-history

    http://nfap.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Immigrants-and-Billion-Dollar-Startups.NFAP-Policy-Brief.March-2016.pdf

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/immigrants-american-inventiveness/515928/

    Furthermore, white Americans love their “sportsball”, whether it be “too dark” or “too light”. They demand that their squads acquire talent to win championships, whether it be drafting playings, signing free agents…or importing ringers. It’s about WINNING.

  183. res says:
    @Benjaminl

    Wow. It looks like Germany is somewhat similar in that regard. Some discussion at https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/27959/what-do-paternity-test-restriction-laws-aim-to-achieve
    The comments to the last (much downvoted) answer are interesting.

  184. Altai says:
    @silviosilver

    A testament to how immigrants enrich a country’s culture.

    It’s a testament of how poor and ghettoised Arabs and West Africans in France are and how they have displaced the native working class French and to the large football culture which was created by those working class Frenchmen.

    It’s literally a monument to how fast and how big of a poor ghettoised population Arabs and Blacks in France are. Professional Athletes come from lower socio-economic backgrounds because they either can’t or don’t aspire to anything more academic rather than the highly risky and time-consuming route of professional sports.

    Lots of Vietnamese in France, don’t see too many of them playing football…

  185. CCZ says:

    The NEW Conventional Wisdom from WaPo, “beyond any reasonable doubt”:

    By The Washington Post, By Greg Sargent

    The events of the past few days — culminating in President Donald Trump’s meeting Monday with Russian President Vladimir Putin — have rendered this interpretation inescapable: Trump is currently in the process of repaying Putin for helping to deliver him the presidency.

    The known facts have now established it beyond any reasonable doubt, and the only alternative interpretations of that now-established basic bargain are actually more nefarious than that one.

  186. Corvinus says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    “The sh!th0l3s that former colonies have become without imperial guidance testify to the efficacy of British imperial good government.”

    As always, you are historically illiterate. The “good government” was merely for the Europeans to grab as many gimmedats and free stuff as possible. And why is Africa today in a relatively messy situation? Take a look at the Congo as an example. Start from 5:09 and end at 6:02.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbbuTjntpGc&feature=youtu.be

    Post World War II, there were more than 50 new nations born in Africa. Throughout the continent, Africans had high hopes for the future. People looked forward to rapid political and economic development. After decades of colonial rule, Africans were again in control of their destinies. But as with any new country, problems arise. A pattern developed**:

    1) Widespread economic disappointment that discredited initial democracies;
    2) The formation of political parties based on ethnic or religious loyalty;
    3) Rival ethnic groups jockeying for position and power;
    4) Political instability heightened by ethnic strife and civil war;
    5) The emergence of strict one-party rule or military dictatorship;
    6) A lack of an educated electorate and a middle class to counter authoritarian rule;
    7) trade deficits, poverty, and famine due to continued economic dependence on the West, with
    loans to modernize squandered by corrupt officials.

    Scholars trace Africa’s recent problems to the colonial experience. Western imperialism had a complex and contradictory impact on Africa. Colonial rulers built roads, railroads, harbors, and cities. The new forms of transportation were meant to make the colonies profitable by linking cash crop plantations and mining operations to ports. For the majority of Africans, who were subsistence farmers, there was scant benefit from these facilities. To pay for expensive development projects, African nations exported minerals and agricultural goods to the industrial world; profits used to buy Western clothing, electronics, and automobiles.

    During the colonial period, Europeans undermined Africa’s traditional political systems. Even when they left African rulers in place, they dictated laws and told Africans how to govern. White officials shared the racial views of their day. They saw Africans as children who needed guidance, overlooking the fact that Africans had ruled themselves for centuries. Europeans denied educated Africans top jobs in colonial governments. Suddenly, at independence, colonial powers expected African leaders to transform authoritarian colonies into democratic nations. African continental
    and regional stability today remains an ongoing process.

    “Leftism, as Corvinus has repeatedly demonstrated, is multi-dimensionally defective.”

    You must have been quaffing the ceremonial wine again, dear. I’m not a lefty, just a white American man who has a family.

    • Replies: @Anon
  187. Altai says:
    @ThirdWorldSteveReader

    Also note the much better faring that Scotland had with the exact same phenomena, partly due to having less hostile and alien elites. I always wonder how different history would have played out if the attempt to establish an Irish-Norman university managed to happen before Trinity was established. Almost but not quite.

  188. Altai says:
    @Oliver Cromwell

    I suppose Finland wasn’t colonised by Russia either then. Or the non-Russian Soviet states in the USSR.

    As we all know those seats were always there and always filled by people who weren’t predominantly from an alien elite who saw themselves as the same as the natives.

    I’m sure you view the EU as fine because the UK got representation. And if it turns out one is not allowed to have the opinion of leaving the bloc…

    • Replies: @Oliver Cromwell
  189. Jack D says:
    @The Alarmist

    The entire island of Hispaniola is also sometimes called Santo (or San) Domingo.

  190. Jack D says:
    @Jackson

    Very weak sauce.

    Accusation: Julia Ioffe (who is, for purposes of this argument, a spokesperson for all Joos) is in favor of Open Borders for European countries and America but not for Israel, therefore she (and all Joos) are hypocrites.

    Response: Oh, I looked it up and Julia Ioffe actually IS in favor of Open Borders for Israel too.

    Counter response – Well she SAYS this but she doesn’t really mean it because she knows that it will never fly in Israel.

    LOL

    The “Jewish hypocrisy” thing is trotted out endlessly by anti-Semites and it’s just not true no matter how many times you bring it up. The people who believe this kumbaya stuff really think that they are making the world a better place for everyone. They are willing to prescribe this wonderful medicine for Israel just as much as for France. If this policy can’t currently be implemented in Israel for internal Israeli political reasons, they will work to change its politics there too. They are naive and wrong and misguided but they are not part of some evil conspiracy by the Joos to destroy the white race.

  191. Karl says:
    @Oliver Cromwell

    154 Oliver Cromwell > every player is from the country he represents, and has family there going back at least 300 years

    what a beautiful idea….. too bad that the ACTUAL job-description of televised sports, is to sell overpriced perfumed soaps and payday loans.

  192. Jack D says:
    @Oliver Cromwell

    Parts of Algeria were also legally incorporated into France but this did not really make Algeria French. Ultimately whether a place is a colony or a part of the motherland is determined in the minds of its people and not the nominal legal structure.

    Centuries of British rule did not convince the Irish that they were British. The fact that they were represented in Parliament meant nothing in the end. Whatever goodwill the British had built up over the centuries was instantly destroyed when they executed the leaders of the Easter Rebellion.

  193. Anonymous[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jackson

    Exactly. She’s virtue-signalling, knowing full well that for her, the virtue in question will remain untested. That’s why it’s pointless, when debating a non-white immigrants, to ask how they would feel if their hometown were to demographically change beyond all recognition. They can lie through their teeth, knowing that no one will ever immigrate to Dhaka or Mogadishu.

  194. @Clyde

    I’ve already posted this link which contains not few truths (although it is sometimes tendentious or simply wrong): https://diversitymachtfrei.wordpress.com/2016/05/27/the-problem-with-feminism-why-feminisation-leads-to-third-worldization/

  195. Truth says:
    @donut

    Algorithms don’t “make efforts”, Sport

    • Replies: @donut
  196. Achilles says:
    @istevefan

    There was a soccer hooligan riot in in Brooklyn in 1959.

    The New York Times
    Soccer Fans Riot and Injure Three Officials and Patrolman at Ebbets Field; MELEE FOLLOWS 1-0 NAPOLI LOSS
    By GORDON S. WHITE JR.
    JUNE 29, 1959

    The three officials and a special patrolman were injured in a fight with fans following an international soccer game at Ebbets Field yesterday.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1959/06/29/archives/soccer-fans-riot-and-injure-three-officials-and-patrolman-at-ebbets.html

    Hundreds of unruly Napoli partisans erupted on the field to attack the officials on June 28, 1959. A patrolman was also knocked out with a linesman’s flag.

  197. Here in Zagreb, Croatia, we’re having a wonderful feast. I only strolled near happy, huge, jubilant, peaceful, loving & mostly sober bunch of men and women, girls & boys, seniors & children…everyone.

    No riots, no violence, no hysteria ….

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  198. Spud Boy says:

    “Sixteen of the 23 players on France’s team come from families that recently immigrated to the country, most of them from Africa. Seven players are Muslim. A testament to how immigrants enrich a country’s culture.”

    More like a testament to the fact that Africa won the World Cup, not France.

    How a true Frenchman could take any national pride in such a victory is beyond my comprehension.

  199. @Gunner

    Because the NFL and MLB spend shitloads of money on marketing their product to them. You couldn’t have more breast cancer awareness at a sporting event unless they were doling out free mammograms at the entry gates and posting the results on the jumbotron.

  200. Pericles says:
    @Brutusale

    There’s something like three teams worth of Swedes playing in the NHL. Hmmm, looks like it’s 98 players at the moment, the third largest nationality if my eyes do not deceive me. A pity we never get to see these guys play back at home.

  201. How many white Europeans have won fame and fortune playing an autochthonous Arab or African sport in an Arab or African league? Answer: none, ever. Once again, Arab and African bodies are wholly dependent on white institutions (like the game of professional soccer and the vast civilizational infrastructure that underpins it) for anything that elevates them from their dusty villages and mud huts.

  202. Pericles says:
    @Jack D

    Are these Jews willing to brand the Israelis as racists too? Shut down diplomatic relationships and cooperation like sharing mass surveillance data? Do they support throwing out AIPAC? Perhaps they support some sanctions? A few sanctions? Against rogue nuclear weapons? Or sending in the NGOs to undermine and ultimately destroy the racist Israeli regime?

    • Agree: JMcG
    • Replies: @Jack D
  203. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Generalfeldmarschall con Hindenburg

    Not true. The Persians conquered the Egyptians around 600 BC or so and faced constant rebellions that were intermittently successful.

    Greeks entered as conquerors via Alexander defeating the Persians. The Greeks under Alexanders general who took over Egypt carefully let the Egyptians worship their own gods unlike the Persians.

  204. Trump And Putin Drive Corporate Propaganda Whores Into Madness

    The Corporate Media Is The Enemy Of The American People

    Who Controls The Media?

  205. @Yak-15

    Yak, Steve used to give out the coveted Golden Border, your comment says it all in 16 words. great job.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  206. OFF TOPIC

    Muslim Travel Ban Unified Trump Voters

    Henry Olsen Says:

    Many were concerned about immigration, and the president’s proposed ban on Muslim immigration…was the only single issue that united all four major groups of Trump backers.

    https://amgreatness.com/2018/07/11/nevertrump-bait-and-switch-they-hate-the-ideas-not-the-man/

  207. @Jack D

    Oh, I looked it up and Julia Ioffe actually IS in favor of Open Borders for Israel too.

    Could you link to the article which you believe best exemplifies this conviction?

  208. @Jack D

    I think- I may be wrong- that Ioffe’s chief misery is not in her ethnic obsessions, but in her world-view & adopted life-style.

    But nothing can be done about it …

  209. @Buffalo Joe

    Is the Golden Border broken? I haven’t seen it in months.

    Mine is framed and hanging on my wall.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  210. @Steve Sailer

    Maybe the Serbs and the Croats prefer having separate teams?

    Despite the softly worded question, I have a feeling you’re convinced that the attempt to put Serbs and Croats (and Bosniaks) in the same country was so patently absurd that only the most intense ideological blindness prevented people seeing that obviously it would end in a civil war and the break-up of the country. But if you believe this about Yugoslavia, you’d have to, at a minimum, believe it about linguistically (to the point of mutual unintelligibility) and religiously divided Germany, and probably about linguistically divided Italy too. When you think about it in those terms, the idea of a Yugoslavia doesn’t seem so silly after all.

    The Yugoslavs, winner of the 1980 Olympic basketball gold over the Soviets in Moscow while the US was boycotting, broke up into constituent parts, which are still pretty good but not as good as they would have as Yugoslavia.

    Well, Yugoslavia won 3 FIBA Basketball World Cups and 5 Eurobasket gold medals in 46 years, while a truncated ‘Yugoslavia’ (Serbia + Montenegro) won 2 FIBA World Cups and 3 Eurobasket golds in 15 years (one of which included a victory over a professional U.S. team).

    • Replies: @HA
    , @Anonymous
  211. Alfa158 says:
    @eah

    Whatever gave her the idea that Italians want to become the Negro in that photo? Speaking for myself as someone born in Italy I much prefer my current status as an Honorary Whiteman.

  212. @Jack D

    The “Jewish hypocrisy” thing is trotted out endlessly by anti-Semites and it’s just not true no matter how many times you bring it up. The people who believe this kumbaya stuff really think that they are making the world a better place for everyone. They are willing to prescribe this wonderful medicine for Israel just as much as for France. If this policy can’t currently be implemented in Israel for internal Israeli political reasons, they will work to change its politics there too. They are naive and wrong and misguided but they are not part of some evil conspiracy by the Joos to destroy the white race.

    Ron Unz’s latest contribution suggests otherwise.

  213. Jack D says:
    @Pericles

    I do not accept your premise that Jews need to be as anti-Semitic and as anti-Israel as you are .

    However, there are in fact anti-Israel Jews and Jewish groups – see for example J Street and in Israel Peace Now.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Pericles
  214. @Gunner

    She’s not “white” and she’s not dumb. She’s malicious.

  215. CJ says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    What year in the 1950s was the movie LA Confidential supposed to be?

    1953.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
  216. @Jim Bob Lassiter

    My vague impression is that successful Formula 1 drivers are not the equivalent of drunken housepainters.

  217. JMcG says:
    @Anon

    Yes, I understand that. I was being wry. Also making a point that population explosions, for whatever reason, often end in tears.

  218. @CJ

    Los Angeles in 1953 sitting beside the Pacific Ocean with no Major League baseball team and with the Blacks and Mexicans not as yet running amok. Perhaps there is still a Southern bit of natural liberty to go along with the Northern ordered liberty in the political atmosphere of Los Angeles in 1953.

    World War II veterans who saw California on the way to the Pacific War or European War veterans wanting a fresh start heading to California.

    Population of Los Angeles in 1953:

    about 2 million

    Population of Los Angeles in 2018:

    about 4 million

    Los Angeles County in 1953:

    about 4.2 million

    Los Angeles County in 2018:

    10.2 million

    I don’t trust any of those figures culled from the internet.

  219. Marcus says:
    @Karl

    Wow! Where did you go that gave you the confidence to denigrate MIT like that?!

  220. @Anon

    You mean with developing potato cultivation? Hardly. Potato arrived in Ireland either brought by Raleigh/Drake or by Spanish visitors, but either way the English seem to have been careless about spreading its cultivation. Per Wikipedia:

    In Ireland, the expansion of potato cultivation was due entirely to the landless labourers, renting tiny plots from landowners who were interested only in raising cattle or in producing grain for market. A single acre of potatoes and the milk of a single cow was enough to feed a whole Irish family a monotonous but nutritionally adequate diet for a healthy, vigorous (and desperately poor) rural population. Often even poor families grew enough extra potatoes to feed a pig that they could sell for cash.

    No English merit there, unless you count having hordes of landless Irish farmers as “good administration”. Contrast this laissez-faire attitude to the still-remembered efforts of the French and German governments to make this vegetable acceptable to their populations.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Anon
  221. Marcus says:
    @Jack D

    Ffs Ioffe even lied about Jews like her being given special treatment among “refugees” when confronted by Mr. Sail0r.

  222. @Anon

    But remember there was also the Crown-sponsored colonization of Ulster by Protestant Scots, which came to give major headaches to all parties involved.

    • Replies: @Anon
  223. @Anon

    “That population increase was largely ethnic Irish.”

    Lot’s of booze, high T men, randy redheaded women, scarcity of birth control will do it every time.

    • Replies: @Anon
  224. foulkes says:
    @Brutusale

    The Sedin Sisters, chortle

    Marchand is a mentally disturbed weasel
    Daniel was taking that to draw a penalty, as the Canucks had the best power play back then
    Anyone calling the Sedins “sisters” is usually a dork of some kind

    • Replies: @Brutusale
  225. eagles says:

    Importing more Africans just brings your country closer to today’s South Africa.
    A failed state with whites on the brink of a genocide

  226. @ThirdWorldSteveReader

    In England, big landowners who lived on their land often did a lot to improve agricultural productivity. In Ireland, you often had absentee landlords who lived in England and didn’t do much for improving life in Ireland.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
  227. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @BenKenobi

    Dominican Republic was never a British colony. It was always a Spanish colony official language and culture still Spanish.

    Hispaniola is quite a sight from the air, Haiti eroded brown dirt, DR green forest and farmland.

    British Jamaica is one of the worst of the Caribbean nations.

    The problem with Haiti is that it got rid of the Whites and mixed race people and went straight back to Africa

    Guadalupe Martinique St Martin St Bartheleny and some others are some of the best Carribbean islands. They’re not colonies, just regular French overseas departments like Hawaii. So they’re governed like the rest of France and can’t deteriorate too much.

    St Lucia is former British well governed prosperous and low crime.

    Cuba was the best and most prosperous and had the biggest middle class till Castro’s glorious revolution

  228. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Isn’t J Street supposed to be controlled opposition? At least that’s what a lot of Jewish publications claim?

  229. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThirdWorldSteveReader

    The Protestant Scots liked Ulster so much many left for America as soon as possible.

    • Replies: @ThirdWorldSteveReader
  230. HA says:
    @silviosilver

    “…the idea of a Yugoslavia doesn’t seem so silly after all.”

    But given that Marxist ideologues kept ramming brotherhood-and-unity (i.e. “diversity is our strength”) down people’s throats, and pushing the fiction that anyone with a trace of local ethnic pride was a fascist — or worse yet, a “deplorable” — it only served to push people apart.

    There’s a lesson there, too, but I doubt the likes of Adam Gopnik or Julia Ioffe will bother with it, and to the extent Merkel is any different, it may be too little, too too late.

    Likewise, a surprising consequence of all that diversity that Germany is experiencing these days is that it helps make clear to both Bavarians and Prussians how much they really do have in common. Otherwise, it would be much easier to lose sight of that.

    Meanwhile, here’s some photos of Croatians celebrating. If this is what losing is supposed to feel like, I’d be just fine with a big slice of that.

    https://news.sky.com/story/croatia-get-heros-welcome-in-zagreb-despite-losing-world-cup-final-11438938

    https://i.imgur.com/NEmX2AV.gifv

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  231. By that logic then it has been bad for Africa, no ?

    Exporting their best, retaining the dregs.

    Yes, I am aware that I’m tacitly insulting myself. It’s for the greater good of showing how stupid that line of thinking is.

  232. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    That’s the exact syllabus describing African Post Colonial Studies 101 from 1975

    Did you think it up all by yourself? You’re so Jewish prattling away standard leftist propaganda as though it was your own thought.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  233. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Benjaminl

    About 20 years ago the French health service had every hospital in the country get DNA from all new babies and parents.

    The study revealed that 10 percent of the fathers named as fathers were not the biological fathers of the babies.

  234. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oliver Cromwell

    Ireland was an English colony from the 1200s to 1830s . England’s oldest and worst treated colony.

    Last 100 years?

    • Replies: @Anon
  235. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oliver Cromwell

    300 years would be hard for N and S America Australia New Zealand Singapore.

  236. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Happens every year in Los Angeles when the Israeli bonds and other Jewish fund raisers come to town.

    There’ll be graffiti on the walls of Jewish cemeteries schools community centers Strangely it always happens when the CC cameras malfunction.

    For about a month there’s massive caterwauling and then when the suckers are all prepped the fundraisers come to town.

  237. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anthony Wayne

    Mo Salah is the best Middle Eastern player. He plays for Egypt and Liverpool.

    Europeans tend to be bigger than Middle Easterners, so I don’t think size has anything to do with it. Salah is 5’9″. Size isn’t really an advantage in soccer. The tallest and biggest players on a team tend to be the defenders, where size is an advantage, and they’re usually only around 6 feet or so. While the best players on a team are usually the forwards and midfielders, and they’re generally shorter than the defenders.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  238. @Anon

    True, but many stayed. It even shows up in the genetic clustering of the British Islands.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/12/08/the-saxon-panmixia/

  239. @HA

    But given that Marxist ideologues kept ramming brotherhood-and-unity (i.e. “diversity is our strength”) down people’s throats

    Brotherhood and Unity wasn’t a “diversity is strength” variant. It didn’t claim that Yugoslavs are better off for having such diverse origins. It tried to emphasize that they shared important things in common, which formed the basis of their unity. It was a call to put “Yugoslavia first,” ahead of narrower ethnic loyalties, much as “Deutschland uber alles” did in Germany. It wasn’t predestined to fail.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @HA
  240. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Those were the Hiberno-Normans or “Old English”. They’re different from the later Protestant English and Scottish colonists that came to Ireland.

    Many of the Hiberno-Normans were “Gaelicised” and assimilated into the native Gaelic Irish community. They came to Ireland when there was no Protestant religion, and they remained Catholic and merged with the native Gaelic Irish to become part of the Irish Catholic community.

    The Protestant English and Scottish colonists that came later under Elizabeth and Cromwell were anti-Catholic and more hostile to the native Irish.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  241. Anonymous[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @BB753

    Playing sports at a level that will lead to professional success generally requires massive parental involvement in terms of time and money, as well as a lot of practice on the kid’s part. I suspect most immigrant parents from the subcontinent see such an investment as foolish compared to one in a professional education. I can’t say I blame them.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  242. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @George

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/07/croatia-england-world-cup/564992/

    It can be argued that the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, which culminated in the dissolution of Yugoslavia and the birth of independent Croatia, began at a soccer match. It took place in Zagreb, the capital of Croatia, in the spring of 1990. Thugs from the Serb club Red Star Belgrade rushed from their section of the stadium toward Croatian fans chanting, “Zagreb is Serbian.” A full-fledged riot ensued, with stabbings, shootings, and dozens of grave injuries. These casualties came in the shadow of Croatia’s first genuine elections in 50 years—and the riots helped propel Croatian separatists to victory.

  243. Anonymous[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @Karl

    Wasn’t Netanyahu’s father a historian?

  244. Anon[361] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Sure, but it took off while the British were helping to govern the place.

  245. Anon[361] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Ireland doesn’t have the natural abundance of some of the other colonies. Also, the natives were possibly more unruly and aggressive.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  246. Anon[361] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThirdWorldSteveReader

    No English merit there, unless you count having hordes of landless Irish farmers as “good administration”.

    Well, Raleigh/Drake were English. So English innovation and adventurousness may have been a but for cause of the Irish baby boom. Also, it was the British who provided the institutions and rule of law in which those families thrived (relatively speaking). Things could have been worse.

  247. @Altai

    I am not denying (or endorsing) the legitimacy of Irish nationalism, only pointing out that Ireland was not legally a colony nor were conditions there very similiar to those of colonies. Few Irish MPs were English transplants and I do not regard the UK as a colony of the EU (or whatever you think the EU’s dominant culture is).

  248. @Anon

    My impression as a tourist in 1987 was that England has superb land for pre-modern agriculture while Ireland has a lot of rocks, so besides England being a little larger than Ireland, it’s hardly surprising that there were usually more English than Irish and the English were richer and thus could push around the poor Irish.

  249. @Anonymous

    A lot of the fighting in the Balkans in the 1990s was not between mass citizen armies — draft evasion was very high — but between gangs of men who already liked violence, such as soccer hooligans and prison gangs. The politicians made deals with pre-existing gangs to go loot and pillage the other side in the name of the nation. See “The Remnants of War.”

  250. @Anonymous

    There was an English movie about 15 years ago “Bend It Like Beckham” about a Sikh girl soccer player. The Sikh parents were not woke about women’s soccer.

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @BB753
  251. @silviosilver

    The German-speaking countries still haven’t really forgiven the Serbs for murdering the Archduke and setting off the Late Unpleasantness of 1914-1918.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  252. @Anonymous

    Zidane, 6’1″, would have been expected to play quarterback in American football just because he looked like one.

  253. France wins the World Cup and her cities burn.

  254. Wilkey says:
    @Benjaminl

    Today I learned that paternity testing is illegal in France unless a judge approves. It’s literally state-sanctioned cuckoldry.

    Or perhaps the people who are making the laws have a certain, uh, conflict of interest with open paternity testing?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  255. Hail says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer

    There is also a political-racial subtext of Bend it Like Beckham besides the more overt Girl Power message. When it was being filmed, about mid 2001, not a single South Asian had ever appeared in the Premier League, which was by then in its tenth season.

    How many South Asians have ever been in the Premier League?

    A British press story from 2018 highlights a player named Danny Batth [b. 1990], who is said to “become the Premier League’s fourth British Asian [since its founding in 1992]” when the season starts back up again in August, as his club [Wolverhampton Wanderers] was promoted from a lower league this year. (Danny Batth is half-White and half-Sikh.) The first-ever South Asian to play in the Premier League started his first match in 2002. This was Michael Chopra, who also turns out to be half-White.

    South Asian Players in Premier League
    - Neil Taylor [b. 1989] (half-White; mother from Calcutta), six seasons in Premier League [2011-2017]; actually played in 57.5% of games in those six seasons
    - Michael Chopra [b. 1983] (half-White; father from India), six seasons in Premier League [2002-2006; 2007-2009]; actually played in 26% of games in those seasons
    - Zesh Rehman [b. 1983] (full Pakistani origin), three seasons in Premier League [2003-2006]; actually played in 18% of games in those seasons
    - Danny Batth [b. 1990] (half-White, half-Sikh); declared himself for India’s national team in 2017; zero seasons in Premier League so far but one is about to start (from August 2018) [2018-?]

    There are 20 clubs in the Premier League at any given time and 25 players on each roster, making for 7,500 player slots on all teams’ collective rosters for the past fifteen seasons, taken as a whole. How many of these slots have been occupied by South Asians?

    The above-named players occupied 16 slots in the Premier League’s 7,500 player-slots-per-season from the 2002-2003 to 2017-2018 seasons, or 0.2%, which falls to 0.1% if the half-White players are counted at 0.5. The Premier League since 2002 has been 0.1% South Asian by ancestry.

    • Replies: @BB753
  256. @Anonymous

    It’s worth noting that there were thousands of Serbs in Zagreb who remained untouched throughout the war. Similarly, the tens of thousands of Croats in Serbia’s Vojvodina region remained unscathed. I think this shows that the ethnic hatreds were not quite as deep-seated as is often assumed.

    (Also, since the wars, youtube comments on soccer and basketball videos are full of Serbs and Croats congratulating each other’s wins. Folk music and history videos, on the other hand, tend overwhelmingly towards expressing hatred.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Romanian
  257. @Steve Sailer

    The German-speaking countries still haven’t really forgiven the Serbs for murdering the Archduke and setting off the Late Unpleasantness of 1914-1918.

    Seems they have a lot in common with Israelis then: make it impossible for a people to accept your terms, and when they react with hostility, invade them and blame them for ‘starting the war.’

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  258. @Bardon Kaldian

    That crowd looks like they’re performing Roman salutes as a troop of blackshirts marches by.

  259. @silviosilver

    The Serb head of military intelligence, “Apis,” put together a big conspiracy in 1914, dispatching something like 9 assassins to Sarajevo for about a month, to assassinate the Archduke. That’s pretty bad.

    Nobody remembers Apis but he bears a bit of the guilt for the 20th Century.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Anonymous
  260. @silviosilver

    I saw Bulgaria beat Greece 4-0 in a World Cup game in 1994. But nobody got mad. A Greek explained to me that Greeks liked the Bulgarians.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  261. eah says:
    @notanon

    I think you are naive — very naive.

    Rabat Process

  262. @Steve Sailer

    In the wake of that incident, Serbia acquiesced to every Austrian demand except what would have been the effective occupation of their country. In response to this refusal, Austria declared war. That was “pretty bad” too, wasn’t it? Even from a narrow Austrian perspective, why gamble the future of the empire on humiliating a pipsqueak upstart like Serbia? That was worse than”pretty bad” – it was a mistake.

    In any case, the assassination of the Archduke was just the trigger event. Given the arrangement of European political forces at the time, some other event could have handily served the same purpose.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @Marcus
    , @HA
  263. @Steve Sailer

    That’s a good example that Balkans grudges aren’t necessarily ‘forever.’ Greeks, especially Greeks from the region occupied by Bulgaria during WWII, used to hate Bulgarians nearly as much as they hated Turks. Most Greeks today would consider Bulgarians their friends (or at least not enemies).

    That hatreds arise and hatreds abate is not really news, but I think the Yugoslav wars gave a lot of observers the impression that there was something especially abiding and vicious about Balkans hatreds – a myth that I clearly consider worth dispelling.

    (I saw that game too. Bulgaria didn’t dominate nearly as much as suggested by the 4-0 score.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Anonymous
  264. @silviosilver

    Right. Greece had much of the time of possession in the 1994 World Cup game, but every time they made a mistake Bulgaria got a goal.

    Bulgaria went all the way to the semifinals that year.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  265. @eah

    But England Sweden Netherlands Belgium too have been invaded and demolished by immigrants, and none of them won the World Cup, or played in the final.
    More media desperation to put positive spin on the invasion and demolition of western nations by invading hordes of 3rd worlders.

  266. @Steve Sailer

    Yes, and I’m not sure if you caught this, but at the time they were losing 2-1 to Italy in that semifinal, they should have been awarded a penalty for a rather obvious infringement. And if they held out to the end, given Italy’s luck in penalty shootouts, they may well have made the final.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  267. @silviosilver

    Bulgaria-Brazil would have to have been a better Final in 1994 at the Rose Bowl than the 0-0 tie between Italy and Brazil that ended in penalty kicks with the last kick being the Italian star Biaggio missing the entire goal by 10 or 15 feet. I have to wonder how much that awful Final set back soccer in the USA …

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  268. Anonymous[868] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    But if you believe this about Yugoslavia, you’d have to, at a minimum, believe it about linguistically (to the point of mutual unintelligibility) and religiously divided Germany, and probably about linguistically divided Italy too. When you think about it in those terms, the idea of a Yugoslavia doesn’t seem so silly after all.

    Apples and oranges. By the time the first Yugoslavia was founded it was 1918 already, much too late for it to work.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  269. Anonymous[868] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    That hatreds arise and hatreds abate is not really news, but I think the Yugoslav wars gave a lot of observers the impression that there was something especially abiding and vicious about Balkans hatreds – a myth that I clearly consider worth dispelling.

    The ancient hatreds myth is ridiculous. The tension between Muslims and non-Muslims in Bosnia can maybe be described that way if you squint, but serious tensions between Serbs and Croats only really arose in the 19th century, and escalated as the two sides failed to agree on what the proposed common South Slav state should look like.

  270. HA says:
    @silviosilver

    “Brotherhood and Unity…didn’t claim that Yugoslavs are better off for having such diverse origins.”

    You just keep telling yourself that — I’ve known enough Yugoslavs over the years to have heard the flip-side, and to many of them, B-and-U was indeed a claim that anyone who wasn’t deeply unhappy to be a Serb or Croat or Slovene was much, much worse than the ideologically monolithic bureaucracy that ruled over them. It was indeed an implicit claim that “mixed” marriages were inherently superior and certainly advantageous (hence the Croat president’s outrageous remark that as far as he was concerned, he was glad his wife wasn’t a Serb or Jew), and that some government-regulated hybrid language was, if not better than the local dialects it replaced, at least something that wouldn’t result in anyone being fired.

    I could go on, but again, anyone who doesn’t see at least a few similarities to that regime with certain other powers that be in this day and age is likely see history lay down another rhyme, to paraphrase Twain. It certainly could have been different. But to the extent all that you see when you look at a Croat (or a Serb or Slovene) is some strawman fascist — and even today, many still reflexively do exactly that — is proving what the Yugoskeptics have claimed from the start.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  271. Pericles says:
    @Jack D

    I do not accept your premise that Jews need to be as anti-Semitic and as anti-Israel as you are .

    Lol, that was quick. I guess there was nothing more substantial to lead with.

    So they’re at most willing to mildly kvetch. Well, not entirely surprising.

  272. Marcus says:
    @Mr. Anon

    The United Nations General Assembly overwhelmingly passed, 144-4, a resolution October 21 demanding that Israel remove the barrier; only Israel, the United States, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands voted against it.

    Julia Ioffe
    ’05, vice-president of the Princeton Israel Public Affairs Committee, however, said the wall is necessary for Israel to protect its citizens against suicide bombers.

    “I think a lot of people are forgetting why the wall is going up in the first place,” she said. “It’s not to keep out Palestinians who want to have a normal life; it’s to keep out terrorists who blow up pizzerias in large cities, killing innocent children. It’s a security fence, just like Israel says.”

    http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2003/11/town-gown-gathers-to-protest-israel-security-wall/

  273. JMcG says:
    @silviosilver

    Except that the there had already been crises that hadn’t resulted in widespread war. The difference this time was the Russian decision to come in on the side of the Serbs, merely as an expression of Slavic fellow feeling. The Russians had no more a formal alliance with Serbia than the U.K. had with France.
    Of course, the Russian dynasty paid in blood for its part in lighting the bonfire. Studying the runup to the First World War is by turns mystifying and horrifying.

  274. @JMcG

    In contrast to the Germans, the Russians really love the Serbs.

    E.g., [Spoiler Alert] Anna Karenina gets very depressed after her boyfriend goes off to fight for the Serbs.

    Personally, I’m kind of meh on the Serbs.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @silviosilver
  275. @Steve Sailer

    Sailer once again picks on little old primogeniture. The Normans sent a lot of the non-first sons to Ireland to keep the Anglo-Norman expansionism going and Sailer don’t like it. Primogeniture packed Virginia full of Normans too, but Sailer don’t mention that.

    Sailer has two dreadful hobbies:

    1) Picking on primogeniture and 2) NOT moderating my comments on through.

  276. JMcG says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I don’t really have a dog in that fight. My father’s uncle,on the other hand, was machine gunned about five minutes after getting out of his trench on the first day of the Somme.
    He was 27.

  277. Romanian says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    I find the songs very nice.

    This one gets me right in the feelz.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  278. Anonymous[105] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wilkey

    Is it legal in the US?

  279. Anonymous[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The ‘Apis Bull’ more like.

  280. Marcus says:
    @silviosilver

    Serbia obviously couldn’t or wouldn’t control its military intelligence that was hellbent on destabilizing Bosnia, what should Austria-Hungary have done?

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  281. @Anonymous

    “Those were the Hiberno-Normans or “Old English”. They’re different from the later Protestant English and Scottish colonists that came to Ireland.”

    I know. “Since all Ireland cannot govern the Earl of Kildare, let the Earl of Kildare govern all Ireland!”

    But it was all started when a leader wanted some mercenary troops.

  282. @Jim Don Bob

    Jim, you have a Golden Border? I would treasure mine if I had one.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    , @JMcG
  283. Corvinus says:
    @Anon

    “That’s the exact syllabus describing African Post Colonial Studies 101 from 1975″

    Actually, that is more recent commentary.

    “Did you think it up all by yourself?”

    It’s called reading several sources and integrating that material. Are you up to the task of trying to offer a cogent rebuttal?

    “You’re so Jewish prattling away standard leftist propaganda as though it was your own thought.”

    It’s actually not “leftist propaganda”, but historical fact devoid of any particular ideology. And, in typical fashion, your Jew fetish once again rears its ugly head.

  284. @Steve Sailer

    I was at my most soccer-mad in the mid-90s, but even back then I hated nil all results, and I couldn’t stand it when purists tried to insist that nil all could still be a ‘great game.’ But I’ll make an exception for that final, which I found very exciting. I taped it and have watched it about ten times since then. I’m sure it did nothing for America soccer’s popularity though. Essentially, 1994 was too early to hold a World Cup in America. When any other country hosts a world cup, it’s the biggest thing going; half of America probably had no idea it was even on. (The opening conflicted with the NBA Finals, for one thing.) If America hosted it in 2014, I’m sure it would have generated a lot more buzz – not least because Americans in 2014 were much more adept at the game.

    (Btw, even if Baggio had scored, Brazil only had to score on the very next penalty – which they probably would have – in order to win.)

  285. @Marcus

    Contented itself with a hefty diplomatic slapdown?

  286. @JMcG

    The difference this time was the Russian decision to come in on the side of the Serbs, merely as an expression of Slavic fellow feeling.

    I think the decision to actually commit themselves to war had more to do with realpolitik than Slavic-Orthodox fellow feeling – although there was certainly plenty of that too. The Russians vied with the Austrians for influence in the Balkans, and the fear in western Europe was that this would give Russia ‘access’ to the Mediterranean.

    Of course, the Russian dynasty paid in blood for its part in lighting the bonfire. Studying the runup to the First World War is by turns mystifying and horrifying.

    There’s an infinite regress of causes for that war, more so than any other war I can think of. It’s enough to drive you to philosophical determinism just for respite.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  287. @Steve Sailer

    In contrast to the Germans, the Russians really love the Serbs.

    I’ve known more than a few Serbs who live in Germany or Austria, and I’ve never heard that they’re especially disliked (I mean, beyond the casual resentment Germans might feel towards foreigners in general).

    Does this grudge exist more at the diplomatic level than the street level then? That’s what Serbian nationalists claimed when Germany led Europe in recognizing Croatian independence. In their minds, the Germany of 1991 was scarcely different to the Germany of 1941, so it ‘made sense’ that Germany would side with Croatia.

  288. @Anonymous

    By the time the first Yugoslavia was founded it was 1918 already, much too late for it to work.

    Only in the sense that ethnic nationalism had had decades to fester by then, such that Croats, above all, were bound to regard Serbian influence as a retrograde cultural imposition. Still, that was by no means a deal-breaker. If the kingdom of Yugoslavia was a rickety structure which Serbs were wont to treat as their own dominion, communist Yugoslavia made a valiant (though ultimately inadequate) attempt to be impartial and to overcome the past. It was only the memories of the seismic bloodletting of WWII that proved impossible to vanquish – were it not for that, I’m quite confident there would still be a Yugoslavia today.

    I’ll use the case of Macedonia to bolster my argument. Up until the founding of Yugoslavia, the Slavic population in that territory was almost uniformly of Bulgarian national consciousness, and steadfastly resisted Serbianization. Yugoslavia didn’t permit them to be Bulgarians, however, and since they refused to become Serbs, they slowly became ‘Macedonians.’ The communists were quite content to recognize them as Macedonians, and the newly minted Macedonians, in turn, were quite content to become Yugoslavs. Today, most Macedonians are utterly convinced they have no connection to Bulgarians whatsoever. People whose grandparents and great-grandparents regarded Serbs as their oppressors today regard Serbs as their greatest friends. It’s surely one of the most complete transformations of national consciousness in world history. (Moldova-Romania is a similar case.)

    How does that bolster my argument? Well, Bulgarian nationalism was no weaker than Croatian or Serbian nationalism. If Yugoslavia was able to completely eradicate the former and replace it with a Macedonian nationalism that was quite healthily pro-Yugoslav (Macedonia would never have attempted to breakaway hadn’t Croatia and Slovenia started it), then there’s no reason to think that Croatian and Serbian nationalism were necessarily some impassable barriers that could not, in time, have been diminished or transformed. The communists undoubtedly had the political will to do it – until the Tito-Stalin split, there were even serious plans to incorporate Bulgaria into Yugoslavia – what they lacked were the appropriate methods and enough time to see the project through.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Jack D
  289. @Romanian

    Nah, don’t like it. Contemporary Serbian nationalism is so unstintingly idiotic. Bosnians were the least offensive muslims on earth, but in the minds of Serbian nationalists they were transformed into demons that were salivating at the prospect of devouring Serbs.

    • Replies: @Romanian
  290. donut says:
    @Truth

    Hey , what up Negro ? Always happy to hear from you . I sent you a link a long time ago , I wonder if you ever watched it and if so what you thought . Here it is again anyway :

    I have a question for you , serious , no BS now : are you better off here in the USA as the descendant of slaves than you would be if your people had remained free in Africa ?

  291. HA says:
    @silviosilver

    “In the wake of that incident, Serbia acquiesced to every Austrian demand except what would have been the effective occupation of their country.”

    Serbia’s response effectively accepted all terms of the ultimatum but one: it would not accept Austria-Hungary’s participation in any internal inquiry, stating that this would be a violation of the Constitution…

    Another way of reading the refusal is to note that, Constitutional niceties aside, if the Austro-Hungarians had been allowed to participate in the inquiry, and thereby get to the bottom of the assassination, they would have discovered the full extent of the involvement of the Serbian deep state (in particular, their having provided the assassins with weapons), which is something they really needed to keep hidden, as it would have likely led to a declaration of war (or equivalently, a demand that that deep state be extirpated) anyway.

    The Serbian king was in a particular bind, since Serbian ministers had no problem with assassinating even their own royals, especially those they regarded as being too soft.

    • Agree: silviosilver
  292. @HA

    I’ve known enough Yugoslavs over the years to have heard the flip-side, and to many of them, B-and-U was indeed a claim that anyone who wasn’t deeply unhappy to be a Serb or Croat or Slovene was much, much worse than the ideologically monolithic bureaucracy that ruled over them

    We began this discussion by you claiming that B&U was the Yugoslav equivalent of ‘diversity is strength.’ In reality, they’re polar opposites. The former holds that commonalities are more valuable than differences, while the latter claims that differences are more valuable. Perhaps what you meant to say was that B&U was just as pie in the sky, just as doomed to failure, as ‘diversity is strength.’ Ultimately, B&U did indeed prove doomed, but it doesn’t mean it sought the same ends or applied the same means as ‘diversity is strength.’

    Furthermore, since “B&U”, in one form or another, has been performed successfully in nation after nation (France, Germany, Italy etc etc), your claims about its impracticality in the Yugoslav context must rest on the notion that the gaps dividing the various Yugoslav ethnicities were too large to bridge. It’s logical that the larger the gaps the more strenuous the efforts to bridge them would have to be, but your quoted remark above seems to criticize the Yugoslav state for attempting to do exactly this. I can’t see how you can have it both ways: that Yugoslavia was doomed because the gaps dividing Yugoslavs were too great, and that Yugoslavia was doomed because the Yugoslav state tried too hard to bridge those gaps.

    In my opinion, the Yugoslav state didn’t try nearly hard enough to make Yugoslavs. Croatian and Serbian emigres saw it rather differently, since they were typically among the most nationalistic of all Yugoslavs, and to them any diminution of Croatian or Serbian identity was unacceptable. For them, Yugoslavia was wholly repressive. And truth be told, Yugoslavia did a fair job when it came to repression. What the Yugoslav state failed to realize, however, is that mockery is just as effective a tool as repression. (Look at the mileage America and Britain have gotten out of mocking white nationalists in addition to repressing them.) Rather than mock ethnic identity, Yugoslavia permitted the various republics to elevate ethnic identity to equal (or even greater) standing with Yugoslav identity. That, to me, was the fatal error.

    Contrary to Serbian and Croatian nationalists, I see little to no value in anything in Serbian or Croatian culture that nationalists raised to sacred status. The idea of ethnic national culture is not so bad if you are a Britain or a France or a Germany, with actually impressive cultural attainments under your belt (hell, even a Russia or a Greece), but when you’re a backwards peasant culture like Serbia and Croatia were, then I think it’s absurd to elevate those dumbass folkways to the status of ‘our national way of life.’ If building a Yugoslav identity helped people to discard those worthless attachments and grow into something more worthwhile, it’s something I definitely would have favored.

    (This is the same problem I used to have with Australian national identity, which attempted to base itself on its differences with British identity. Before all this became declassé, it lionized the ‘bush poets’, made a mountain out of convicts and the struggles of settlers, and, later, attempted to shoehorn Aboriginal culture into national awareness at every opportunity. It used to mystify me why they bothered with such an inferior product when they had the glories of British culture at their disposal. Such are the wages of egalitarianism, I guess – and Irish immigration, hah.)

    • Replies: @HA
    , @Jack D
  293. @Buffalo Joe

    I not only got a Gold Border, but Steve turned my comment into a post, which then got picked by Jonathan Last at the Weekly Standard.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/ex-clinton-staffer-brad-delongs-post-on-hillarys-management-skills/

    Got quoted once by Instapundit too years ago.

  294. Romanian says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    It has a nice ring to it. But I am not one to judge whether other people’s animosities are warranted. Grudges last for a long time, even when they seem baffling to outsiders. For all that they are our neighbors and we have a long history together, the conflict in the area felt light years away from us (I am sure our government felt differently) and, even today, we do not pay much attention to Serbia except getting riled up regarding the language rights for the Romanian minority in the Timoc Valley, which is a civil society thing mostly, not an overt concern for the government. The Serbs are just there, basically. The Bulgarians would be the same if there weren’t so many Romanians vacationing there.

    It’s surely one of the most complete transformations of national consciousness in world history. (Moldova-Romania is a similar case.)

    Can you elaborate on your idea? Is it regarding the ersatz identity that tries to prop up the near-failed state?

  295. JMcG says:
    @silviosilver

    Amen, brother. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

  296. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    You know Joe, I could have sworn I got a golden border last year, but I checked my comment history and didn’t see one. I’ll just have to keep trying!

  297. But I am not one to judge whether other people’s animosities are warranted.

    I think it’s unwise to forgo the opportunity to learn from others’ experiences, and the only way to do that is to examine them and pass judgement on them.

    Is it regarding the ersatz identity that tries to prop up the near-failed state?

    Yes, and the political implications that flow from it (the refusal to reunite with Romania etc).

    I’m not sure whether it’s as extreme as the Macedonian case. There you have every single Macedonian ‘national hero’ (aside from the occasional Vlach) unambiguously evincing a Bulgarian consciousness and clearly stating they were fighting for the Bulgarian cause, but which Macedonian historiography ludicrously rationalizes away by claiming they didn’t really mean what they said. I don’t know if Moldovans get up to anything as desperate as that.

    My own position is they can be Macedonians (or Moldovans), today, without this requiring a distortion of the historical record. Whether that is a good idea or not is a separate question.

    • Replies: @Romanian
  298. HA says:
    @silviosilver

    ”Perhaps what you meant to say was that B&U was just as pie in the sky, just as doomed to failure, as ‘diversity is strength.’ Ultimately, B&U did indeed prove doomed, but it doesn’t mean it sought the same ends or applied the same means as ‘diversity is strength.’”

    I meant that both slogans were specious and hypocritical truisms about the benefits of getting along with one another when in fact, they were outright lies (or at the least half-truths) — i.e. diversionary tactics designed to hide the monolithic ideologies/regimes that underpinned each slogan, and that quashed any deviation. That’s not how brotherhood or diversity works, though admittedly, they certainly nailed the part about unity (as in ideological conformity) and strength (as in hamfistedly ramming all that down people’s throats).

    And it’s happening again. The more that the Visegrad group (Poland and Hungary, especially) are portrayed as fascistic repressive regimes bent on doing evil, the more recalcitrant they will become and the less unity there will be in Europe. The same goes for the US media’s very counter-productive efforts to bring the deplorables into line.

    ”your claims about its impracticality in the Yugoslav context must rest on the notion that the gaps dividing the various Yugoslav ethnicities were too large to bridge.”

    It was definitely implemented with more political prisoners and secret-police skullduggery than any of the member states have seen fit to create these days, which to me says a lot (though when it comes Saudis and salafists trying to get a foothold in Bosnia, maybe a little more oppression is in order). And I specifically said it didn’t have to fall apart. Just as historians are coming to see that WWI was far from inevitable, the breakup of Yugoslavia could have gone much more smoothly, and it might never have happened at all, had they but managed to hold out another generation. A looser confederation might have worked as well, and was seriously considered for a while. It might yet be the answer for Bosnia (though it may have also just be the trial separation that leads to divorce).

    And anyway, you focus too much, I think, on unity as exists within a state’s borders – unity is also a function of what lies outside the state. The unity of the Swiss is largely due to the fact that they didn’t want to be part of the Austro-Hungarian empire (or whatever the Italians or the French were offering). The unity of the Croats (who were themselves once a fractious mix of Slavonians, Istrians, Dalmatians and whatever else is on the top of their flag’s crest) as well as the other Yugoslavs made sense when the alternative being offered included Magyarization or Italianization (or, in the case of those fractious Croats, Serbianization), and Yugoslavia was able to stay together when Communist police states carrying out political assassinations far and wide against their enemies were more or less a given. But again, if that’s the price of brotherhood and unity, it’s just a ridiculous lie, and you do yourself no credit to pretend otherwise.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  299. @HA

    Yugoslavia was able to stay together when Communist police states carrying out political assassinations far and wide against their enemies were more or less a given.

    A death toll handsomely exceeded by the nationalists both prior to the communist regime and subsequent to it.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Jack D
    , @HA
  300. Anonymous[106] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    Only in the sense that ethnic nationalism had had decades to fester by then, such that Croats, above all, were bound to regard Serbian influence as a retrograde cultural imposition. Still, that was by no means a deal-breaker. If the kingdom of Yugoslavia was a rickety structure which Serbs were wont to treat as their own dominion, communist Yugoslavia made a valiant (though ultimately inadequate) attempt to be impartial and to overcome the past. It was only the memories of the seismic bloodletting of WWII that proved impossible to vanquish – were it not for that, I’m quite confident there would still be a Yugoslavia today.

    I was referring to your comparison with Germans and Italians. It was too late for Yugoslavia to become a simple nation state like Germany or Italy. There was still a chance for it to survive in some form. But I disagree that memories of WW2 were the main factor. Huge economic disparities between member states, disproportionate representation of the ethnicities (e.g. the army), desire for more autonomy were all factors pushing Slovenia and Croatia toward independence. They got more autonomy in the 70s, but by then it might have already been too late. And then the 80s were just a terrible decade for Yugoslavia, economically and politically. If anything, memories of WW2 most bitterly divide Slovenes and especially Croats among themselves.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  301. Marcus says:
    @silviosilver

    Mainly b/c Titoist reprisals after the war were hushed up after he became the West’s pal. Look up Bleiburg for the best example.

  302. Jack D says:
    @silviosilver

    A local version of the perennial “Who is worse – Communists or Nazis?” question. A plague on both their houses, but I would still give the edge to Nazis.

    In Yugoslavia, as in the USSR, you have to distinguish between the initial Communist revolutionary and consolidation of power phase, which was very bloody and the later phase which was only mildly repressive (even less repressive in Yugoslavia than in the late Soviet Union). By Communist dictator standards, Tito was not the worst.

  303. Jack D says:
    @silviosilver

    As we saw in the ‘stans, ethnic identities never really went away in the Soviet Union, even after 70 years of Communism (and Yugoslavia only had 4o). Regardless of how weak and artificial the “Macedonian” national identity is (nowadays they think they are Greek), Croat and Serbian identity is something that has deep historical roots. Now during the Tito period there was a lot of intermarriage and maybe if Yugoslavia had lasted another couple of generations everyone would have been so hopelessly mixed up that the omelet would be incapable of future unscrambling, but as it was, as soon as the heavy hand of Communism was lifted, everyone picked a team.

    Most national identities in Europe are to some extent artificial constructs going back no further than the 19th century – there was no “Italy” or “Germany” before then, let alone all these other places put on the map at Versailles but their lack of deep roots doesn’t make them any less real or capable of creating bloodshed – that “Germany” was a new and artificially constructed nation did not keep them from causing vast trouble in its name. In fact the newness of its identity may have contributed to it.

    • Replies: @Romanian
  304. Romanian says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    It’s a complicated issue and I have no correct answer, especially for Macedonia. I visited it a few times and saw its interesting civic-governmental area that was being built with its faux classical architecture and also saw the big Alexander the Great statue. It is certainly possible to build a new identity, a pantheon of national heroes and so on, but the process is not without struggles, especially in this day and age, where there are certain pressures acting to dissolve the old ties that bind us, let alone recent ones. I always considered that the age of mass-communication and wide flow of information would by necessity lead, after a liberal period, to great state campaigns for the hearts and minds of their citizens in order to maintain social capital, and that this would be far more illiberal than what had taken place in the past to cement a national culture.

    I am no expert on Moldova. While reunification is not the official policy of the Romanian state, it is our position that the effects of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact’s secret additional protocol dividing Europe must, by necessity, be annulled, which would imply the cancelling of the annexation of Bessarabia by the USSR, of which the Republic of Moldova is two thirds and the rest is in Ukraine. We have signed an accord with Ukraine giving up claims on Northern Bucovina and Southern Bessarabia as a precondition to enter NATO (not having territorial disputes). The problem with Moldova is compounded by Transnistria, which was not a part of the medieval kingdom, though it, too, has a lot of Romanians, as do (did) all of our neighbors (we consider Balkan Vlachs, Ukrainian Volochs and so on to be Romanians forcibly categorized as different to preempt involvement of the Romanian state in the issue of cultural maintenance and worship – the Romanians in Timoc explicitly refer to themselves as Romanians and speak an old timey sort of Romanian, but are defined as Vlachs by Belgrade).

    Transnistria was the kernel of the Moldovan SSR which ate up central Bessarabia, from an administrative standpoint. So, any unification today would also have to decide on what happens to Transnistria, which is in an especially sad case of Soviet stasis. To my mind, it would be best if Ukraine took it in, rather than it staying as a thorn in everyone’s side. Another complication is the Gagauz minority, which has its own swiss cheese autonomous region and a constitutionally inscribed right to self-determination in case of unification. They were noted as being especially loyal citizens of Greater Romania and had suffered quite a lot for it under the USSR, during the purges of their elites and deportations to Siberia, as did Bessarabia itself compared to Communist Romania. Today, they are almost the poorest in a poor country and an agricultural area dependent on trade with Russia (at least before the Russians punished the Moldovans with restrictions) and have also internalized best the anti-Romanian propaganda building up the local identity.

    So, you see, it is not just the issue of a Moldovan identity, but also the issue of the Moldovan minorities (Ukrainians and Russians and Gagauz) and the breakaway territory that are a definite hindrance to unification.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @silviosilver
  305. Jack D says:
    @silviosilver

    Could the Yugoslav Communists have played it differently and permanently tamped down ethnic nationalisms? We will never really know, but I doubt it. The Russians tried much harder and more violently in the Baltics and it didn’t work. It didn’t work in Czechoslovakia either, despite the fact that to an outsider there was not a nickel’s worth of difference between a Czech and a Slovak.

    All the Communist rulers had to balance between the “internationalist” spirit of Communism (which did not resonate well with the local population) and the enduring (as we still see today) appeal of nationalism. By hitching their star to nationalism, they could give their regimes some measure of popular support and appeal, even if this was, strictly speaking, contrary to Communist dogma. We see this today in N. Korea. Maybe in the long run this was not in their interest, but in the long run we are all dead (and Tito held it together to his dying day).

    Maybe to an objective outsider, the historical accomplishments of Serbs or Croatians are negligible compared to the glory of France or the splendor of the British Empire, but to a Serb or a Croatian they are just as splendid (even worth dying for and killing for) because they are their own. Nationalism has proven to be a powerful and enduring organizing principle for humans. Everyone wants to be in a tribe – that is deeply rooted in our genetics. If your country doesn’t really have a long or glorious history or national identity, you can artificially construct one to some extent (all national identities are artificial constructs to some extent) but there has to be something there (but if you have enough time and charismatic leadership and a good story you can create a “there” that wasn’t there before). But (as we see in the EU) without some strong unifying principle – race or religion or language or something, it’s hard to create an enduring “there”. The UK has been trying for centuries and the local nationalisms are still not dead. Yugoslavia tried but they never quite finished gluing them together so when it was smacked their bundle of sticks fell apart at the first shock.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  306. Romanian says: • Website
    @Jack D

    Jack, I would disagree with you here. That there was no unified Italian or German state in the early 19th century is, of course, reality, but that does not mean that they are artificially constructed nations while others are “natural”, unless we are talking about a single people forever inhabiting the same island. The political construct, in their cases, as in many others that followed the bourgeois revolutions of 1848, were built on pre-political loyalties (the way Scruton defines them) that had a pre-defined “we”. The Germans knew themselves to be German, even as they had their Bavarian sub-identity or the narcissism of small differences between villages on the other side of the same valley. The French knew them to be German, which is why Napoleon set up a Confederation of the Rhine, doomed as it was. The process of state building was, invariably, elite-driven, and this reflected its successes and failures, foremost being that Austria remained apart from the main German nation. Of course, I am biased here, because contemporary Romania is also a child of the 19th century and, for that political reasons, is sometimes described as springing forth fully formed from the ground with no relation, identity-wise, to what came before.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  307. Jack D says:
    @Romanian

    This is the eternal problem of organizing states along ethnic lines in a place where there are so many ethnicities – where to do stop? Do you give the Gagauz their own micro-state and surely there must be some difference between the Northern Gagauz and the Southern Gagauz so maybe they need to split further. And what do you do with the areas that are 1/2 Gagauz and 1/2 Ukrainian or maybe split up among 3 or 4 groups (and then the next village over is split in a different way). And do the Gagauz really have the capability of running their own state efficiently or will it just be a kleptocracy that benefits a few Gagauz “leaders” who don’t really represent anyone except their own pockets?

    There are no easy answers.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  308. Jack D says:
    @Romanian

    I don’t think there really are ANY truly “natural” states at all. Even the French identity, which is one of the oldest in Europe, is to some extent artificially constructed of Bretons and Normans and Alsatians and so on. On the one hand, you can always atomize a country down to the village level and on the other hand, you can say that there is a single “European” identity covered all of Christendom – where you draw the lines in between is always going to be something of an arbitrary exercise. Some of these sticks are always going to stick together but for many others, if you could throw the historical dice again the sticks would come together in a different way.

    The fact that all national identities are “fake” at some level should not bother us any more that the fact that all religions are also fake. It’s easy to see, for any religion (OTHER THAN YOUR OWN) that the founding stories of most religions are ridiculously unbelievable but this does not lessen the power of religion. Nationalism is a powerful tool (which like any powerful tool can be used either for good or for evil) despite the fact that it is always “fake” at some level.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  309. BB753 says:
    @Hail

    There’s no one drop rule in Britain. A half-Asian isn’t Asian and shouldn’t be counted as such. So that leaves only one full South Asian player to make it to the Premier League. That number is appalling.
    BTW, what about rugby? Any Sikhs playing pro?

  310. BB753 says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Women don’t usually play soccer at all in Europe. Female soccer is an American thang.

  311. @Steve Sailer

    This Brazilian driver might clarify you vague impression:

    https://jalopnik.com/race-car-driver-arrested-on-suspicion-of-racing-while-d-867293820

    After reading article scroll down for picture of Brazilian. He looks pretty successful to me.

  312. @Steve Sailer

    I plumb forgot about one of the fellers on the painting crew. You can see and read about him here:

    https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/classic-life/duncan-hamilton-gentleman-driver

  313. @Anonymous

    The economic disparities can only go so far in explaining the breakup. The economic disparity between Lombardy and Calabria is even greater than the disparity between Croatia and Serbia (Slovenia was a special case, and not essential to Yugoslavia the way Croatia was), but the Lega Nord seems to have hit the limits of what is possible with economic nationalism and has shifted its focus more to defending pan-Italian ethnic interests. If Lombardy and Calabria (or the north and the south more broadly) had gone to war, with tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths on both sides, then I think you’d have seen the north make a much more determined effort to part ways with the south.

    Economics really only became a majorly divisive political issue with the slowdown and then economic crisis of the 1980s. By itself, I doubt it would have been enough to break up the country. It was the concurrent rise of nationalism, first with the uncertainty surrounding Tito’s death, which many nationalists seized upon as an opportunity to assert themselves, and then with the growing Kosovo issue, which lit a fire under Serbian nationalism. Once Croatia began to get in on the act, there was a growing perception of ‘here we go again’ as memories of Ustasi and Cetniks were revived. And that’s where WWII comes into, because that is what people drew upon to in order to interpret the meaning of Croatian nationalism and Serbian nationalism. If the murderous period of WWII hadn’t taken place, I find it hard to see how a Croat or a Serb would have been so quick to assume that Serbian or Croatian nationalism was such bad news that he’d better kill them before they kill him.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  314. @Jack D

    Could the Yugoslav Communists have played it differently and permanently tamped down ethnic nationalisms? We will never really know, but I doubt it. The Russians tried much harder and more violently in the Baltics and it didn’t work. It didn’t work in Czechoslovakia either, despite the fact that to an outsider there was not a nickel’s worth of difference between a Czech and a Slovak.

    Tamping down on ethnic nationalism was only one part of a complete strategy. Yugoslavia did this reasonably well, although I think more could (and should) have been done.

    The other parts were making an overarching Yugoslav identity more attractive, while simultaneously making attachments to ‘legacy’ identities (Serb, Croat) seem uncool. Yugoslavia failed dismally at this task.

    This would not have been as difficult as it may sound. People were not automatically aware of what being a Croat or a Serb required of them. The ingredients that go into making up a national culture are selected by elites, and this is largely done by what elites themselves choose to value. Had elites selected and continually transmitted ingredients that were unattractive, then in time I think it’s entirely reasonable to expect that people would have gravitated towards a Yugoslav identity (in far greater numbers than what occurred).

    I’m not sure how this might have worked in the USSR. If a Balt or a ‘Stan were to let go of his ethnic identity, just what would he have become, a “Soviet”? Terminologically, that was a no go, since the word more or less translates to “council.” Perhaps the USSR ultimately fell apart for want of a noun.

  315. HA says:
    @silviosilver

    “A death toll handsomely exceeded by the nationalists both prior to the communist regime and subsequent to it.”

    The Communists did a fair amount of the bloodletting prior to their regime, and their attempts to bury the past with blatantly false propaganda about the war, as opposed to actual scholarship (which would have been more than damning enough all by itself, as far as any attempts to tarnish the Ustashe or Chetnik go) helped set the stage for what followed, so don’t pretend they’re exempt from blame. And don’t even get me started on Yugoslavia’s key role in the drug trade (specifically, a major heroin and hash transit point), the resultant bribery and graft undoubtedly paying for many a secret-policeman’s vikendica on the Dalmatian coast, not to mention how they coddled PLO terrorists (including Leon Klinghoffer’s murderers), Carlos the Jackal, and a host of other ne’er-do-wells. I’m not sure if they were behind Olaf Palme’s assassination, but the fact that the accusation has any plausibility at all is bad enough. You need to put those rose colored glasses down.

    Besides, Milosevic waved that red star on his flag proudly, and with good reason. It’s a nice little trick for the Communists — or their supporters on this thread — to try and wash their hands of him (reminiscent of how Democrats want to pretend they weren’t the bad guys during Jim Crow and Reconstruction days) but I’m not buying it. Tito ended WWII feeling ready and eager to keep fighting and planned to set Greece and all the rest of Southeastern Europe on fire. That’s actually why Stalin (who was leery of the atomic bomb, and had spent a lot of effort hammering out percentages with Churchill, and realized his people could do with a break) split with him. Later on Tito morphed into something more politically advantageous, without regard to his former convictions, and that was a lucky break for his people. Anyway, that’s pretty much the blueprint Milosevic applied to his own political career, having learned from an expert.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  316. @Romanian

    we consider Balkan Vlachs, Ukrainian Volochs and so on to be Romanians forcibly categorized as different to preempt involvement of the Romanian state in the issue of cultural maintenance and worship

    I am partly of Vlach ancestry, the rest being Serbian and Greek, with my ancestors all hailing from the region of Macedonia. (Which, unsurprisingly, is why I’ve learned a bit about it). Vlachs have a reputation for stinginess and shiftiness (though not to the epic level of Jews), and most jokes told about them emphasize this, although jokes also sometimes emphasize their stupidity, which, as far as I know, is not a trait really associated with them. My father’s mother and my mother’s sister’s husband could speak fluent Vlach, and I regret not pursuing it since I seem to have a facility with languages. I spent some time in a Vlach speaking village in Macedonia and I was very quickly able to form simple sentences. It’s a dying language, to be sure, but you still find young people speaking it (to their families) in the cities. Two Vlach sisters I knew used to vacation in Constanta and they claimed to be able to linguistically get by there.

    • Replies: @Romanian
  317. @Jack D

    This is the eternal problem of organizing states along ethnic lines in a place where there are so many ethnicities – where to do stop?

    That was one of the underlying factors of the Yugoslav wars, whose operational logic was “Why should I be a minority in your country, when you can be a minority in mine?”

  318. @Jack D

    England — i.e., the more desirable lowlands of Albion — has been a political unit since the 900s. My guess is that English nationalism led to French nationalism in response and set off a domino effect across much of Europe. But England was the straw that stirred the drink. If you don’t have a defensible offshore island next to Europe of about the right size to be ruled with medieval methods of governance, maybe you don’t wind up with nationalism.

  319. @HA

    And don’t even get me started on

    Okay, HA, I won’t “get you started.” Which is to say, I won’t ask you to explain why you think the existence of international intrigues somehow invalidates the concept of Yugoslavia – as though such intrigues were unknown in the non-communist world.

    Besides, Milosevic waved that red star on his flag proudly, and with good reason.

    Milosevic rose to power on the strength of his communist convictions?

    It’s a nice little trick for the Communists — or their supporters on this thread

    You can’t be referring to me then. My ideal would have been a Yugoslavia with no communism. Since that wasn’t offer at the time, I would have preferred no communism and no Yugoslavia. But that’s not what happened. A Yugoslavia was created and my interest has been to consider how that entity might have been preserved if the communists had played their cards differently – which, of itself, does not a communist make me.

    • Replies: @HA
  320. Romanian says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    Vlachs have a reputation for stinginess and shiftiness (though not to the epic level of Jews), and most jokes told about them emphasize this, although jokes also sometimes emphasize their stupidity, which, as far as I know, is not a trait really associated with them.

    Sorry to tell you, but all of our jokes emphasize that the Western half of Southern Romania (Oltenia) is full of idiots and morons, whose only saving grace in life is the shiftiness that makes them a mainstay of politics and con-artistry (also, lots of Gypsies in the South of Romania and some medieval mixing). My hometown is right on the river Olt, so I’m Oltenian as well. It is one thing for us to have a stereotype but, if it is repeated cross-borders, there must be something to it :))))

    As for language, I never randomly met a full blooded Vlach, but the halfies I did meet were quite understandable with their bits of remembered phrases. The accent is sometimes a bit off. The language in writing reveals itself as an old form of Romanian (basically like ye olde English), practically lacking the neologisms of our French-obsessed modern period. Otherwise, standard Romanian is 20% Slavic anyway and many archaisms were Slavic, Hungarians or Turkish. It’s interesting that the ones I mentioned in the Timoc Valley, in Serbian Banat (there is a Romanian Banat centered around Timisoara), maybe from explicit ethnocentrism on account of assimilation policies, speak a very easily understood Romanian.

    If you want an example of significant linguistic divergence, you have the Aromanians (who we colloquially term Machedon) et al in the Balkans and Greece. I can make out a lot of words, but there is a lot of Greek there and they were always sprinkled around the Balkans, with a lot of unexpected people being partly or fully Aromanian. They were a cause celebre of our pre-WW politics, because of influential halfies (Nicolae Iorga) lobbying for our involvement in securing rights and political freedoms. Albania, especially, was of interest because of high population, which led to sympathy for the Albanians, with Nicolae Iorga (a historian) becoming an early “Albanologist” and discovering the earliest written document in Albanian. Many immigrated to Romania (our current tennis star, Simona Halep). Some melted fully, while others have maintained their identity (like Halep’s family or football and football & real estate mogul Gigi Becali), while still being essentially Romanian, without any sort of… troubles or loyalty issues. What differentiates them from their Balkans fellows is that, after their WW1 abortive attempt to have their own mini-state with Italian help (the principality of Pindos), the hammer went down on them, so the Balkans Aromanians either went underground or now claim to be funny Greeks, while outright cousins in Romania (they are very big on family trees, like all clannish peoples) consider themselves a variety of Romanian. The non-melted Aromanians in Romania have Sunday schools for their language, are very Levantine in outlook, with a lot of ethnic networking, are great businessmen and their ties extend throughout the Balkans, especially Northern Greece, where a lot of their cousins are in local administration and business. I previously had no idea how many of the small/medium companies in the region are led by them. Incidentally, Aromanian music is very popular and there is one particular song which gets played all the time on the radio or in restaurants.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  321. HA says:
    @silviosilver

    “I won’t ask you to explain why you think the existence of international intrigues somehow invalidates the concept of Yugoslavia”

    We’ve just discussed how international intrigues in one Balkan state set off a world war, so there’s on answer right off the top of my head. Yugoslavia’s “intrigues” also included terrorism, assassinations (including possibly other heads of state), and it was on top of that one of the world’s largest arms manufacturers, and was in a few decades going to be the largest Muslim-dominated country in Europe (according to the birth rate projections the Bosnian president was banking on). I’m not saying this will go away — Bosnia still has issues with salafists, Montenegro pretty much subsists on contraband tobacco, and Serbia/Montenegro had and still may have the world’s most notorious jewel thieves. (Albania is still taking the lead in sex trafficking, though, so there’s that.) But I daresay the member states, so far at least, seem a bit more compliant to keeping their misbehavior under wraps.

    And I don’t know how many times I have to repeat what I’ve already said: Yugoslavia was not invalid as a concept, and there was a time and an atmosphere in which it made a lot of sense, and that state of affairs may well have continued — a looser confederation, as I’ve already noted, was a serious option before the rotating presidency was blocked. But if you’re going to list its benefits, it behooves you to also account for its numerous detriments. And the problem with heavy-handed dictatorial regimes is that they’re fairly brittle creations.

    And lastly, Milosevic did indeed rise to power as a Communist stooge, and unlike any of the other three key plays, had never been a dissident. So yeah, the red star fits him well.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  322. Anonymous[136] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    The economic disparities can only go so far in explaining the breakup. The economic disparity between Lombardy and Calabria is even greater than the disparity between Croatia and Serbia (Slovenia was a special case, and not essential to Yugoslavia the way Croatia was), but the Lega Nord seems to have hit the limits of what is possible with economic nationalism and has shifted its focus more to defending pan-Italian ethnic interests.

    You keep comparing Yugoslavia to nation states. Yugoslavia formed too late to successfully become one. You may not like it, but with a starting point as late as 1918, the people of Yugoslavia were never going to see themselves as one. The state could have survived, but these comparisons to Italy are useless. Italians became a nation, Yugoslavs didn’t and weren’t going to. Not very surprising they valued the economy over a unity that never quite resonated as much as it was supposed to.

    If Lombardy and Calabria (or the north and the south more broadly) had gone to war, with tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths on both sides, then I think you’d have seen the north make a much more determined effort to part ways with the south.

    Not so sure about that. E.g. Croats are still arguing among themselves over WW2 bloodletting, and pretty much hate each others guts, but there’s no effort to part ways, determined or otherwise. Yugoslavia just appeared on the scene way too late for a Yugoslav identity to solidify.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  323. @Anonymous

    Yugoslavia just appeared on the scene way too late for a Yugoslav identity to solidify.

    Yeah okay, it was all timing. Policies and events had nothing to do with it, they never do.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  324. @HA

    But if you’re going to list its benefits, it behooves you to also account for its numerous detriments

    I can agree with that. But the detriments you listed don’t seem to me directly related to the existence of Yugoslavia per se; they were a product of communist-world strategizing and straight up criminality. To my way of thinking, Yugoslavia’s greatest detriment was to the ambitions of the nationalists of its constituent republics – which of course, to me, was not a detriment at all.

    And lastly, Milosevic did indeed rise to power as a Communist stooge, and unlike any of the other three key plays, had never been a dissident. So yeah, the red star fits him well.

    So we’re to believe that Milosevic was a communist true believer till his dying day. He only insinuated himself into the leadership of the Serbian nationalist movement in order to advance the communist cause, and if that required breaking up Yugoslavia, by Jove he was willing to do it.

    • Replies: @HA
  325. @Romanian

    What differentiates them from their Balkans fellows is that, after their WW1 abortive attempt to have their own mini-state with Italian help (the principality of Pindos), the hammer went down on them, so the Balkans Aromanians either went underground or now claim to be funny Greeks, while outright cousins in Romania (they are very big on family trees, like all clannish peoples) consider themselves a variety of Romanian.

    Is there a difference between Vlach and Aromanian? I’ve always treated them as synonymous.

    Assuming they’re the same thing, the Aromanian youth in (Yugoslav) Macedonia today are as staunch Macedonian nationalists as anyone else. The only Aromanians I’ve met who have reservations about fervent displays of Macedonian nationalism are older people whose parents lived through the intensely nationalistic/conservative interwar years, when Aromanians were viewed very suspiciously. Today no Macedonian nationalist views them suspiciously.

    It’s funny, because I know some Aromanians with relatives in Greece, who (of course) speak Greek and are staunch Greek nationalists. (Well, I have distant Aromanian relatives in Greece too, but I don’t know their political stance.)

    Also, it might be of interest to you that I know a huge gypsy clan in Australia. They tend to regard themselves as ‘Serbs’ – or at least took the Serbian side in the war – but come from all over the place – Vojvodina, Bosnia, Croatia. The interesting thing is that, in addition to Serbo-Croatian, they also speak Romanian – not ‘Romani’, but actual Romanian. None of them have any idea of where in Romania they might have been from, so their migration must have taken place quite some time ago. It’s interesting that they’ve preserved their Romanian speech right down to the present day. (And yep, in the presence of real Serbs (or other ex-Yu people) they call themselves ‘Romanians’, which must thrill you.)

    • Replies: @Romanian
    , @Romanian
  326. Romanian says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    Is there a difference between Vlach and Aromanian? I’ve always treated them as synonymous.

    Well, the issue here is that Vlach is an exonym – it’s what people call you. Aromanian, Romanian etc is what the people call themselves. So, under the Vlach designation, you have lumped together either or both by the respective states which host the minorities. Maybe it reflects a historical awareness of a Romance speaking group, as opposed to the other types, but they are quite distinct by now. In all fairness, unlike the Moldovans, the Aromanians are distinct enough to be called a different, but related, ethnicity. Turks and Azeris maybe? Or the Gypsies, who are lumped together, but actually feature quite different dialects of their language depending on territory (though I have no idea if they are mutually intelligible). So, sometimes a Vlach is an Aromanian and sometimes he is a Romanian who is part of the territorial continuum inhabited by Romanians (generally, living near the Romanian borders) speaking a very close variant of the Romanian language. Usually, the Vlach designation is useful for the states in question, specifically in order to distinguish between what they have and the Romanians of Romania, who could press for rights for their minorities (not that we usually do :( ). There is another issue – for some countries, the Vlach designation is for a minority language, but without recognizing an implicitly different ethnic group, since the whole group must be bilingual anyway. This was the case in Albania, until it adopted a Law on minorities in 2017 that established the Aromanians as a recognized minority under the term Vlach/Aromanian. An Aromanian told me that one of the Presidents of Albania is a halfie on his mother’s side, but downplayed for political reasons. Can’t remember which one.

    An example here is the “ceangai” (csango) minority in the Romanian part of Moldova, who are a Roman Catholic Hungarian ethnographic group with their own language, Csango. They were, for a long time, also because of their geographic isolation from other Magyar communities, “neglected” both by the Romanian Magyars and by Budapest, which has only recently extended its diaspora programs to them, to my knowledge. Like the Szekely (secui), they are being absorbed by the Hungarian continuum and are less and less likely to identify as Csango (what happened to Romanian Aromanians), but with an already very low population.

    And yep, in the presence of real Serbs (or other ex-Yu people) they call themselves ‘Romanians’, which must thrill you.

    I am ecstatic, as you can imagine. We have less recourse to protecting our “brand name” than a girl scout lemonade stand :)

    Bilingualism and the like were common in diverse and border areas, especially before the advent of the modern kingdoms that solidified the borders and applied Western thoughts of universal and centralized schooling. Timisoara has always had a big Serbian community and so on. So, just like a lot of Romanians spoke Hungarian and viceversa, and even German, so too did they speak Serbian and so on. This is an unscientific thought, but I think that Romanians are more passive and mellow. If you’re going to be an ethnic nuisance and hide under a national umbrella, it is better to be Romanian than Serb, who are a more passionate and vengeful people, who have taken mass/organized vengeance in recent memory. It is also why many Gypsies maintain a Romanian passport/citizenship, even after having taken others in places where they are profitably living. We’re their Israel, God help us.

  327. Romanian says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    And let’s not forget that there are also other Romance speakers under the Vlach designation – Istro-Romanians and Megleno-Romanians, with their own linguistic differences.

  328. @Bill jones

    Yes, but the post I responded to included them.

  329. Brutusale says:
    @foulkes

    Yeah, that power play really held up well in that series, huh?

    They were outscored 24-8 in that final series. Given their clutch (the throat) performance under pressure, they’ll forever be the Sedin Sisiters in Boston.

    Why are guys like Ovechkin and Crosby more respected by the NHL fans than the Sedins? Because they’ve actually thrown a punch in anger during a game. The Sedins prefer to let the refs protect them.

    Marchand is that irritating type in the NHL that everyone hates…until he’s on your team. At least Marchand fights, as opposed to the prototype “irritant” cheap-shot pussies like Ulf Samuelsson.

    I understand the “dork” comment. People who talk about pro athletes by their first names are true arbiters of masculinity!

  330. Anonymous[163] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    Disagreeing is one thing but you keep replying with no attempt to understand what you’ve read.

    Policies and events are why Yugoslavia didn’t survive as a state, in any form.

    Timing is why Yugoslavs never had a chance to become one nation like the Italians and Germans you keep mentioning did.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  331. @Anonymous

    Lol, well frankly, I feel your post is a better description of your own posts than it is of mine. I mean,

    Timing is why Yugoslavs never had a chance to become one nation like the Italians and Germans you keep mentioning did.

    this basically claims that it doesn’t matter what happened along the way, or why, or what else might have been done in response. It was simply too late and that’s that.

    Does that really strike you as an explanation of anything? Really?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  332. Anonymous[238] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    Feels ridiculous to have to explain the same thing to you yet again but, sure, let’s give it one last go.

    this basically claims that it doesn’t matter what happened along the way, or why, or what else might have been done in response.

    Yes, too late for the different peoples of Yugoslavia to become a nation like the Italians and Germans you compared them to.

    It was simply too late and that’s that.

    With a starting point as late as 1918? Yes, it was. What examples do you have of European ethnicities successfully merging into one post-WW1? Or is there something else that makes you think it was possible?

    it doesn’t matter what happened along the way, or why, or what else might have been done in response

    Of course it matters. Among other things, it explains why Yugoslavia didn’t survive. But, no, it doesn’t explain why Yugoslavs can’t be compared to Germans or Italians the way you tried. Some things a nation will almost certainly survive (e.g. economic disparities), a state like Yugoslavia is much less likely to be able to weather.

  333. HA says:
    @silviosilver

    >So we’re to believe that Milosevic was a communist true believer till his dying day.

    We can believe the facts, which are that he was a Communist stooge (born to two other stooges) who had a cushy job as a Yugoslav banking official, which allowed to get chummy with Eagleburger and Zimmerman and a whole host of diplomatic types who helped convince the world that he was the good guy while all those obstreporous people wanting a looser confederation were the dangerous ones (you know, kind of like the line you’re trying to feed us) that he could be relied on to bring back into line.

    Did he ever have cause to question that? Probably not. But was he a communist? Well, he was more properly a Titoist who thought that communism was whatever he wanted it to be and whatever would advance his own interests. Close enough.

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