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From the Editor of The Atlantic:

John McCain Would Have Passed the Anne Frank Test

The senator spent decades demonstrating his willingness to fight powerful men who abused powerless people.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG
8:47 AM ET

A decade ago, on one of his seemingly countless visits to Iraq, John McCain, who was generally immune to the charms of introspection—“Stop trying to get me on the couch, you shit” he once said, smiling, when I tried to encourage him toward self-analysis—talked about the dominion of human cowardice, and the story of Anne Frank, in a way that I found startling.

We had been discussing the American war in Iraq, which he supported steadfastly, even after everything went sideways. The cause, he said, was just. The execution, at least until the troop surge of 2007, was a disgrace, but this didn’t move him off his principles. “I hated Saddam,” he said. “He ruled through murder. Didn’t we learn from Hitler that we can’t let that happen?” His hatred of Saddam, like his hatred for all dictators, burned hot; his contempt for Donald Rumsfeld, George W. Bush’s first defense secretary, was ice-cold. It was Rumsfeld’s arrogance and incompetence, McCain believed, that helped discredit the American invasion. “He was the worst,” McCain said.

I offered a qualified dissent in response. I supported the invasion for more-or-less the same reason McCain did—I wanted to see the Kurdish people, the preeminent victims of Saddam’s genocidal fury, suffer no more. But unlike McCain, I had come to believe that the theory of the American case was no match for heartbreaking Middle East reality. I wasn’t sure that even the most perspicacious secretary of defense could successfully lead an effort to renovate a despotic Middle Eastern country. I suggested to McCain that this sort of grandiose undertaking was not necessarily a core competency of the United States. “But genocide!” he said. “Genocide!” His argument was not only concise, but morally superior. Not analytically superior, but morally, no doubt.

We spoke every so often about the Holocaust, and its supposed lessons (one lesson, he told me once, in a mainly, though not entirely, devilish way, was that Jews should be well-armed). He said that, in the post-Holocaust world, all civilized people, and the governments of all civilized nations, should be intolerant of leaders who commit verified acts of genocide. That, he suggested, is the most salient lesson of all.

I told him then that he would most definitely pass the Anne Frank Test. He was unfamiliar with the concept (mildly surprising, given that his best friend was Joe Lieberman). The Anne Frank test, something I learned from a Holocaust survivor almost 40 years ago, is actually a single question: Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?

Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003? Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq; but it’s bizarre how many people who pushed for the single dumbest policy decision of the 21st Century wound up with high honors in their field, such as McCain getting the 2008 GOP nomination and Goldberg being made the editor of The Atlantic.

 
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  1. Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?Saddam Hussein?

  2. Funny story: my grandfather was part Jewish. I’m not sure how Jewish, but Jewish enough to fall afoul of the Nuremberg laws. He was, however, a Nazi. As in, an actual, card carrying Nazi, from early on.

    When the Nuremberg laws were passed, that put him in a bit of a predicament: technically, he wasn’t allowed to be a Nazi, and a host of other things. Fortunately, being a Nazi, he was well acquainted with the local Nazi mayor. So he went to him and said: mate, I’ve got a problem. And his mate said: No worries, I’ve got access to the official records, stamps and all.

    Well, come next morning he had a problem no more. So I take it my grandfather’s mate, the Nazi mayor, he passes the Anne Frank test? Yes?

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Thank you for sharing this fascinating story.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    And he didn't even shake him down? Now, that's a friend.
    , @Flip
    Helmut Schmidt's grandfather was Jewish.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    When I was a kid I hid in the closet for about 45 minutes to get out of going to Sunday morning mass. I was found, and then I was taken to mass (late) against my will. I barely survived.

    Do I pass?
    , @Escher
    Strange that he wanted to continue being a Nazi despite knowing how the party thought about some of his ancestors.
    , @Jack D
    If the Jewish ancestor was male, the usual solution was to have your mother/grandmother testify that she had been unfaithful and had cheated with an Aryan who was your REAL father/grandfather.
  3. So where is Jeffery Goldberg planning to hide now that McCain’s attic isn’t available?

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Richard Ben Cramer wrote somewhere ("How Israel Lost"?) that Goldberg was talking about fleeing Manhattan to escape all the anti-Semitism. The implication was that Goldberg was willing to invest in ghost-repulsing crystals but had not yet found a vendor.
    , @El Dato
    The last place they will look for him is in FEMA Camps.
    , @Frankie P
    There is still space in Lindsey Graham's attic.
    , @Olorin
    I dunno, dude. But I hope he avoids the house of that gal in was it Evanston? who wrote at such heaving length about having the Throbbing Nazi Flag in her attic. The vibrations alone'd keep him more sleepless than the church bells across the street from the Frankenhideout.
  4. it’s bizarre how many people who pushed for the single dumbest policy decision of the 21st Century…

    But genocide!! Genocide!!

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Didn't we cut a deal with Saddam at the end of Gulf War I?

    Did he break it first, or did we?
  5. Hey goldbrick !….. did he pass the anne frank test back in Hanoi Hilton when he made 60+ propaganda broadcasts for North Vietnam ?

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    That’s the funny thing about torture. They could have gotten you to say anything.
    , @Simply Simon
    There is at least one exception, Capt Lance Sijak USAF Academy graduate. He was in the back seat of an F4 Phantom downed in Vietnam. The story of his escape and evasion from the North Vietnamese is one of the most remarkable I have ever read or heard about. He was finally captured and taken to the Hanoi Hilton where he was tortured but refused to tell his captors anything. He died there.
    His Phantom was not shot down, rather it was destroyed as a result of the bombs his pilot was dropping prematurely exploded on release killing the pilot. Sijak although hurt manged to eject from the aircraft. Jolley Green helicopters were sent out for his rescue but he waved them off telling the crew over his survival radio that it was too dangerous because of enemy fire. I would normally agree that being shot down and becoming a POW does not necessarily make one a hero but Sijak is the exception.
  6. There is a good comment at the Spectator that McCain’s maverick nature involved punching down at the right and ending up on the side of the establishment. Pay a price for being wrong? What? That’s not how it works!

    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    "Pay a price for being wrong?"

    How much effort does our decrepit & discredited Elite put into insulating themselves from accountability?
    It is considerable and it's reinforcing the other Negative Externalities of our Age like affirmative action, set asides, Blue State Govt graft, wage suppression due to mass immigration, other immigration related ailments (pollution, crime, traffic, fraying social fabric).

    It is chilling to ponder how much of our future has been stolen by 50 yrs of malevolent leadership.
    Every time i think i've been fully red pilled, it occurs that even more of what i had considered normal or unavoidable was just Conditioning & Propaganda.
  7. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:

    The single dumbest policy decision of the 21st century

    By what metric ? Just one example out of many of worse policy decisions.

    Flooding the USA with Somalis in particular and Muslims in general was a far worse policy decision. I know you will connect the policies in your magnum opus theory “Invade/Invite the world”, but it would be only partially true. For one thing ,we import Muslims from countries we never invaded .

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    We never invaded Somalia?
    , @Joseph Doaks
    How about cost? Per Reuters:

    Iraq war costs U.S. more than $2 trillion: study. NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.Mar 14, 2013
  8. When I think of John McCain, I think of John McCain handing the “Steele Dossier” to James Comey.

    No amount of eulogizing “The Maverick of the Senate” will change that.

    Aside, isn’t it interesting that “The Maverick of the Senate” died on 8/25 as did “The Lion of the Senate” and both died of glioblastoma? There’s something there there but, it’s just beyond the fringes of my imagination (or perhaps power of perception).

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    It pales in comparison to Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both dying on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
  9. What we learn: John McCain was a truly great man because he believed that people who “rule through murder” are “just like Hitler”; thus “we” must murder them.

    Warning: Do not apply this chain of reasoning to any other foreign heads of state!

    But the interesting question I have is this: Was McCain really guided by a view of history so childish and breathtakingly ignorant? Consider the power this man wielded!!

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Given how many Americans hold such childish and historically ignorant views, I don't doubt that McCain did too. I lost count of how many Facebook comments I've seen like "my grandfather fought Nazis
    in Europe and we need to fight them here." As if an expansionist foreign army of millions of men is equivalent to a few hundred law-abiding US citizens demanding that they not be replaced.
  10. Well, Michael Kelly probably supported the invasion too, and just think how good The Atlantic could be if he’d become its editor.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    I have some hope that Mike Kelly and John McCain are in different places despite their common mistake.

    Where McCain is I imagine he’ll get his fill of devilish commentary.
  11. Jeffrey Goldberg forgets that collaborating with the Germans was the smart move in occupied Holland in the same way it’s smart to collaborate with Mr Goldberg now days. For McCain to really have passed the current equivalent of the Anne Frank test, he’d have to be hiding Andrew Anglin in his attic.

  12. I am so ashamed. I always thought Goldberg pushed the Iraq War because it was good for Israel. Put American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and if we look on a map we see the point in between is… Iran! Somehow I doubt it worked out that way by accident.

    Goldberg is so high-minded in his backstabby fraud, I almost want to believe him.

  13. The Anne Frank test: “Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?”

    The Soros test: Which Jewish friends would help the Nazis hunt you down?

    • Replies: @lavoisier
    The Anne Frank test: “Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?”

    The Solzhenitsyn test: "Which Jewish individuals would risk their reputations to allow publication of a book that explores the role played by the Jewish Bolsheviks in the execution of the greatest mass murder of the twentieth century."

    , @SMK
    Exactly how, when, and where will the Nazis "return" in the sense of having the power to exterminate Jews? When the U.S. is transformed into a nonwhite-majority country? Nazism died when Hitler committed suicide in 1946. There was no Nazi regime before Hitler and there has been no Nazi regime since. Jew hatred is "on the rise" in Western Europe, not because of Nazis but because of Muslims.

    Oh, I forgot, Trump was elected President, and Charlottesville, where "Nazis" were attacked by communists, exalted as heroes by the media and John McCain, while the police did nothing to stop the violence.
  14. From the article:

    There is no reward in American politics for public displays of self-awareness or self-criticism.

    It’s a strange remark coming from a man like Goldberg, a man pushes agenda of Israel & Jewish lobby without any self-awareness or self-criticism, unlike say Kissinger who despite all his flaws was quite self-aware.

  15. Anne Frank, truly das Maedchen fur Alles: whatever you need at the moment.
    OT Shootings are only shootings when the shooter is white, and the shooter is white even if he is Jewish. If the shooter was black then it goes to this philosophical koan territory.
    The Florida city with today’s school “shooting” had a shooting literally yesterday, but that shooting wasn’t a “shooting” because the perpetrators weren’t “racists.” Y’know, if we actually paid attention to, like, news, and not the skin color of the shooter, maybe it would save lives or something.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/raines-high-school-football-shooting-tonight-2018-08-24/

  16. @Cagey Beast
    So where is Jeffery Goldberg planning to hide now that McCain's attic isn't available?

    Richard Ben Cramer wrote somewhere (“How Israel Lost”?) that Goldberg was talking about fleeing Manhattan to escape all the anti-Semitism. The implication was that Goldberg was willing to invest in ghost-repulsing crystals but had not yet found a vendor.

  17. @Cagey Beast
    So where is Jeffery Goldberg planning to hide now that McCain's attic isn't available?

    The last place they will look for him is in FEMA Camps.

  18. It it took so long to find Saddam Hussein in his spider hole because the Iraqis had their own version of the Anne Frank test.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  19. Mike DeWine of Ohio and Jim Talent of Missouri both lost their Senate seats in 2006. The Iraq war was at least a factor in both races. National Review’s credibility with the average conservative continued to decline. Outside of Conservatism, Inc. disciples, Bill Kristol is essentially considered a joke now. All these things may have happened anyway, but the Bush Administration policy in Iraq contributed. I can’t think of anyone in the Bush administration who ever paid a price though.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Mike DeWine of Ohio and Jim Talent of Missouri both lost their Senate seats in 2006. The Iraq war was at least a factor in both races. National Review’s credibility with the average conservative continued to decline. Outside of Conservatism, Inc. disciples, Bill Kristol is essentially considered a joke now.
     
    Actually, the Democrats now view him and his Hamilton 68 fraud as an unimpeachable source of anti-Trump propaganda.
  20. We had been discussing the American war in Iraq, which he supported steadfastly, even after everything went sideways. The cause, he said, was just. The execution, at least until the troop surge of 2007, was a disgrace, but this didn’t move him off his principles. “I hated Saddam,” he said. “He ruled through murder. Didn’t we learn from Hitler that we can’t let that happen?” His hatred of Saddam, like his hatred for all dictators, burned hot

    At this point nobody can be fooled by this bullshit. I assume the only victims of this nonsense are those who read Goldberg articles to do anything but marvel at his epic chutzpah levels.

    Where was this contempt for Pinochet? I have a feeling McCain approved of all the mass disappearances and helicopter rides.
    https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/mccains-rendezvous-with-pinochet

    Or the Saudis? Or Mubarak? Or Musharraf? Or the Shah? Or Chung-hee Park? Or the King of Jordan? Or any of the other dictators who allied themselves with US foreign policy.

    It’s almost like McCain didn’t like that Saddam didn’t go along with US neocon foreign policy. If he’d stayed on the good side of the US and Israel there’d never have been a problem. But alas, wars with Iran eventually end and one comes to no longer be of use.

    The thing with neocons and the middle east is they’ll criticise a dictator for all the unpopular things but then replace him with somebody who does the same unpopular things just now without any of the popular (Standing up to Israel) things.

    • Replies: @anon
    And what about the genocide of the historic American nation?
  21. “He ruled through murder. Didn’t we learn from Hitler that we can’t let that happen?”

    Contrary to Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler was (arguably) in the process of taking over Europe, you know, where our people live and all. Huseein was none of our damn business, and that statement is what makes McCain seem like a moron. Did he not learn anything while musing about his situation under his NVA captors in Hanoi? Nothing? Say, “hmmmm… we want to stop Communism from taking over the world, but maybe the locals really resent the hell out of being invaded, napalmed, and carpet-bombed?” and “Having puppet governments in foreign countries doesn’t work so well.”

    (One lesson, he told me once, in a mainly, though not entirely, devilish way, was that Jews should be well-armed)

    They call him “Stopped-clock McCain”.

    Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?

    People have got to learn to think outside the attic box: Think AR’s, reloading, drones, hacking, and Solzhenitsyn:

    “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

    This should be required reading to pass 8th grade, for EVERYBODY.

  22. @tyrone
    Hey goldbrick !….. did he pass the anne frank test back in Hanoi Hilton when he made 60+ propaganda broadcasts for North Vietnam ?

    That’s the funny thing about torture. They could have gotten you to say anything.

    • Replies: @tyrone
    OK OK it's a great excuse for a hero, I admit it, he deserved to dine out on it for forty eight years ,a funny thing as well.
    , @Lurker
    Why didn't they get all the other PoWs to do it as well then?
  23. He said that, in the post-Holocaust world, all civilized people, and the governments of all civilized nations, should be intolerant of leaders who commit verified acts of genocide. That, he suggested, is the most salient lesson of all.

    So, killing a million people for non-genocidal reasons is kinda/sorta OK….but wiping out an ethnic group that numbers, say, 10,000 is beyond the pale….

    “I hated Saddam,” he said. “He ruled through murder. Didn’t we learn from Hitler that we can’t let that happen?”

    Actually, John, Hitler, during the period 1933-1939 didn’t rule through murder. Or, to put it another way, his kill-count from ’33 to ’39 was pretty pathetic when compared to Stalin’s…..but that didn’t stop us from partnering up with Uncle Joe when Adolph turned on him in ’41….

    I told him then that he would most definitely pass the Anne Frank Test. He was unfamiliar with the concept (mildly surprising, given that his best friend was Joe Lieberman). The Anne Frank test, something I learned from a Holocaust survivor almost 40 years ago, is actually a single question: Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?

    John McCain was on the side of the Jews. ‘Nuff said.

  24. @Anonymous

    The single dumbest policy decision of the 21st century
     
    By what metric ? Just one example out of many of worse policy decisions.

    Flooding the USA with Somalis in particular and Muslims in general was a far worse policy decision. I know you will connect the policies in your magnum opus theory "Invade/Invite the world", but it would be only partially true. For one thing ,we import Muslims from countries we never invaded .

    We never invaded Somalia?

  25. They need to make a reality TV show based on the Anne Frank test. It would sort of be like celebrity hide & seek but with a morally uplifting message.

  26. If one was so inclined, one could propose a very different moral test, involving the secret police in the earlier days of the USSR and Orthodox churches and clergy. Somehow I doubt that editor Goldberg is as interested in that one, though.

  27. Well, McCain didn’t get elected, although it didn’t seem like he tried all that hard.

    I don’t get all these hagiographic columns on McCain.

    First, he wasn’t a “war hero.” Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero. He probably couldn’t have become a pilot if his dad wasn’t an admiral, and when he did get his wings he crashed several times.

    He was actually kind of an embarrassment, but he must have done something for Arizona, if not the United States as a whole.

    I thought he was a terrible presidential candidate, and apparently lots of other people did, too. But he did exactly what the Democrats wanted when he lost badly to Obama while refusing to bring up the more unsavory aspects of the former President. Sometimes it seems like he was just carrying water for them all along.

    So I guess that explains the hagiographies.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    First, he wasn’t a “war hero.” Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero.
     
    Old, weird America: You're a war hero for doing stuff ( Eisenhower, Audie Murphy, Eddie Rickenbacker, etc)

    New, vibrant America: You're a war hero for suffering.

    , @JohnnyWalker123

    But he did exactly what the Democrats wanted when he lost badly to Obama while refusing to bring up the more unsavory aspects of the former President. Sometimes it seems like he was just carrying water for them all along.
     
    He also did what the Republicans wanted when he promoted Bush's Iraq War and refused to bring up the unsavory aspects of his presidency.

    McCain had a 81 rating from the American Conservative Union (in comparison to the Republican media of 87) and voted for almost all of Trump's nominees. He was stylistically moderate, but voted like you'd expect from a Republican senator.

    In a way, he tried to make everyone important happy.
    , @Pericles
    Maybe McCain's heroism lay in nearly taking out a carrier by himself?
  28. Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?

    Jews played a big role in inventing psychotherapy, and psychotherapist characters show up in the kind of popular culture Jews have produced in the last 60 years or so, indicating that enough Jews have had dealings with psychotherapists to understand the references to the profession.

    So what do psychotherapists, of any background, generally tell us to do to manage good mental health?

    They tell us to let go of the past, abandon the illusion of the ego and live in the moment.

    But what do Jews do when it comes to the things they really care about?

    They obsess over a past they didn’t witness, and not just the Holocaust, but also how their great-grandparents couldn’t get into WASP country clubs a century ago. They show fragile and easily bruised egos. And they worry incessantly that “Nazis” will come back to stuff them into camps or something.

    Jews really need to follow their own psychotherapists’ advice and, you know, get over themselves.

    • Agree: Anonym
    • Replies: @Alden
    It’s not just the holofraud and country clubs. Many are obsessed with medieval Poland and Popes and Queen Isabella, Eleanor of Aquitaine and other European leaders who protected their people from the slave trading usurious Jews.

    It’s amazing how Jews have completely reversed the history of Polish Jews. They were a rapacious over class who sold many Christian Poles as slaves down the rivers to the Turks. They were put in charge of vast estates and given the power to execute dissidents and pretty much owned the country and treated the masses worse than most slaves were treated.

    Yet because of a few peasant rebellions against the vicious overclass the Jews hate Poland more than they hate the Christian churches.
    , @Tyrion 2
    I don't disagree but it does seem to me that the Anne Frank test is merely a holocaust themed version of the close friend test.
  29. We had been discussing the American war in Iraq, which he supported steadfastly, even after everything went sideways. The cause, he said, was just. The execution, at least until the troop surge of 2007, was a disgrace, but this didn’t move him off his principles. “I hated Saddam,” he said. “He ruled through murder. Didn’t we learn from Hitler that we can’t let that happen?”

    Who killed more people, McCain or Hussein? It’s not even close.

    McCain was a genuine lunatic.

  30. @Bill P
    Well, McCain didn't get elected, although it didn't seem like he tried all that hard.

    I don't get all these hagiographic columns on McCain.

    First, he wasn't a "war hero." Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero. He probably couldn't have become a pilot if his dad wasn't an admiral, and when he did get his wings he crashed several times.

    He was actually kind of an embarrassment, but he must have done something for Arizona, if not the United States as a whole.

    I thought he was a terrible presidential candidate, and apparently lots of other people did, too. But he did exactly what the Democrats wanted when he lost badly to Obama while refusing to bring up the more unsavory aspects of the former President. Sometimes it seems like he was just carrying water for them all along.

    So I guess that explains the hagiographies.

    First, he wasn’t a “war hero.” Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero.

    Old, weird America: You’re a war hero for doing stuff ( Eisenhower, Audie Murphy, Eddie Rickenbacker, etc)

    New, vibrant America: You’re a war hero for suffering.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Eisenhower never actually saw combat.

    I don't know if McCain qualified as a "hero" or not, but he did volunteer for dangerous combat missions even though he had the connections to avoid them and he did so during a conflict in which many men sought to avoid combat.
  31. @Barnard
    Mike DeWine of Ohio and Jim Talent of Missouri both lost their Senate seats in 2006. The Iraq war was at least a factor in both races. National Review's credibility with the average conservative continued to decline. Outside of Conservatism, Inc. disciples, Bill Kristol is essentially considered a joke now. All these things may have happened anyway, but the Bush Administration policy in Iraq contributed. I can't think of anyone in the Bush administration who ever paid a price though.

    Mike DeWine of Ohio and Jim Talent of Missouri both lost their Senate seats in 2006. The Iraq war was at least a factor in both races. National Review’s credibility with the average conservative continued to decline. Outside of Conservatism, Inc. disciples, Bill Kristol is essentially considered a joke now.

    Actually, the Democrats now view him and his Hamilton 68 fraud as an unimpeachable source of anti-Trump propaganda.

  32. “Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?”

    Wrong about what? Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Wrong about what? Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.
     
    We have weapons of mass destruction too. They're called Hellfire missiles, Spectre Gun Ships, 50 caliber machineguns, etc. At least, if you use them often enough over a long enough time, they cause mass destruction. But for some reason, our weapons of mass destruction aren't called weapons of mass destruction.
    , @Carroll Price

    Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.
     
    The hardware, and technical expertise needed to produce the poison gas was arranged by Donald Rumsfeld and provided by none other than Uncle Sam.

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2004/06/17/how-reagan-armed-saddam-with-chemical-weapons/

    , @anon
    "He had weapons of mass destruction".


    Then why didn't he drop a bomb on the invading American army? He had nothing to lose.


    China, Russia, Pakistan and Israel have weapons of mass destruction (for real). Should we attack them too?


    The USA also has weapons of mass destruction btw.
  33. Jeffrey Goldberg: “He left college to move to Israel, where he served in the Israeli Defense Forces as a prison guard”

    I am not sure this was the best move if making friends who would risk life for you was your objective. Who needs friends if you can lock them up.

  34. Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero.

    If you escape, it does, or at least should. Otherwise, you’ve got to do something like Audie Murphy. Not something like Kerry or McCain. Not saying McCain could have escaped, just that he shouldn’t qualify.

  35. Anne Frank test is a little on the nose. It should be called the ALF test. Would you harbor an alien in your own attic, like ALF. Of course ALF (Annelies Frank) is really Anne Frank.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    That's brilliant. Someone likely got a PhD in Communications arguing that theory.
    , @Anonym
    The eyebrows, the epic schnoz, I never picked up on the allegory at the time. Is there more to it? I can't remember much but for the wisecracking.
  36. That Obama speech did not really oppose the Iraq War. It merely expressed some concerns. Many of the war advocates shared some of those same concerns.

    “the single dumbest policy decision of the 21st Century” — maybe, but I don’t think we have any consensus about what made it so dumb.

  37. @Not Raul
    That’s the funny thing about torture. They could have gotten you to say anything.

    OK OK it’s a great excuse for a hero, I admit it, he deserved to dine out on it for forty eight years ,a funny thing as well.

  38. How about a Stalinist twist on this test. When the totalitarian goons come knocking at 3am looking for the thought criminals, who will hide them? Goldberg and McCain? Highly doubtful . . .

    • Replies: @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    Goldberg and McCain (before he died) would be part of the pack of goons knocking down your door.
    , @Joe Walker
    Well at least McCain has the excuse of being dead.
  39. @Blubb
    Funny story: my grandfather was part Jewish. I'm not sure how Jewish, but Jewish enough to fall afoul of the Nuremberg laws. He was, however, a Nazi. As in, an actual, card carrying Nazi, from early on.

    When the Nuremberg laws were passed, that put him in a bit of a predicament: technically, he wasn't allowed to be a Nazi, and a host of other things. Fortunately, being a Nazi, he was well acquainted with the local Nazi mayor. So he went to him and said: mate, I've got a problem. And his mate said: No worries, I've got access to the official records, stamps and all.

    Well, come next morning he had a problem no more. So I take it my grandfather's mate, the Nazi mayor, he passes the Anne Frank test? Yes?

    Thank you for sharing this fascinating story.

  40. @bjdubbs
    Anne Frank test is a little on the nose. It should be called the ALF test. Would you harbor an alien in your own attic, like ALF. Of course ALF (Annelies Frank) is really Anne Frank.

    That’s brilliant. Someone likely got a PhD in Communications arguing that theory.

  41. @Blubb
    Funny story: my grandfather was part Jewish. I'm not sure how Jewish, but Jewish enough to fall afoul of the Nuremberg laws. He was, however, a Nazi. As in, an actual, card carrying Nazi, from early on.

    When the Nuremberg laws were passed, that put him in a bit of a predicament: technically, he wasn't allowed to be a Nazi, and a host of other things. Fortunately, being a Nazi, he was well acquainted with the local Nazi mayor. So he went to him and said: mate, I've got a problem. And his mate said: No worries, I've got access to the official records, stamps and all.

    Well, come next morning he had a problem no more. So I take it my grandfather's mate, the Nazi mayor, he passes the Anne Frank test? Yes?

    And he didn’t even shake him down? Now, that’s a friend.

  42. ” Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq;”

    Steve, I know you have a soft spot for Obama for some reason, but let’s not spin this issue. If Gore had been president, Obama would have made no such sensible speech when he (Gore) invaded Iraq. In fact, he would have probably been the war’s biggest cheerleader.

    Democrats have no problem with invading other countries as long as it’s the Democrats making it happen.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Did Hillary make an anti-war speech against Bush?

    She might have won in 2008 if she had, so I guess we can count her, although her setback was only temporary.

    , @syonredux

    ” Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq;”

    Steve, I know you have a soft spot for Obama for some reason,
     
    Obama's main good point is that he is not very enthusiastic about invading countries (e.g., he regrets being talked into the whole Libya fiasco).

    Had McCain won in 2008, we would have gone to war with Russia. So, we dodged a bullet there....
  43. @tyrone
    Hey goldbrick !….. did he pass the anne frank test back in Hanoi Hilton when he made 60+ propaganda broadcasts for North Vietnam ?

    There is at least one exception, Capt Lance Sijak USAF Academy graduate. He was in the back seat of an F4 Phantom downed in Vietnam. The story of his escape and evasion from the North Vietnamese is one of the most remarkable I have ever read or heard about. He was finally captured and taken to the Hanoi Hilton where he was tortured but refused to tell his captors anything. He died there.
    His Phantom was not shot down, rather it was destroyed as a result of the bombs his pilot was dropping prematurely exploded on release killing the pilot. Sijak although hurt manged to eject from the aircraft. Jolley Green helicopters were sent out for his rescue but he waved them off telling the crew over his survival radio that it was too dangerous because of enemy fire. I would normally agree that being shot down and becoming a POW does not necessarily make one a hero but Sijak is the exception.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Agree completely.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Sijan
    , @Wilkey
    Lance Sijan. My brother went to the AFA. His dorm hall was named for Sijan.
    , @Brutusale
    The word "hero" has been so overused since 9/11 that it has no meaning anymore. The I read about Capt. Sijan and am reminded that the word still has its uses.
  44. @Chrisnonymous

    it’s bizarre how many people who pushed for the single dumbest policy decision of the 21st Century...
     
    But genocide!! Genocide!!

    Didn’t we cut a deal with Saddam at the end of Gulf War I?

    Did he break it first, or did we?

  45. @MikeatMikedotMike
    " Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq;"

    Steve, I know you have a soft spot for Obama for some reason, but let's not spin this issue. If Gore had been president, Obama would have made no such sensible speech when he (Gore) invaded Iraq. In fact, he would have probably been the war's biggest cheerleader.

    Democrats have no problem with invading other countries as long as it's the Democrats making it happen.

    Did Hillary make an anti-war speech against Bush?

    She might have won in 2008 if she had, so I guess we can count her, although her setback was only temporary.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    In 2008, Obama was the new hotness and Hillary was old and busted (to borrow from MiB). I don't give his anti-war speech from 2002 as much credit for his nomination in 2008 as I do his being an teleprompt-iculate youngish black guy with the backing of the Chicago political machine. I know quite a few Republican voters who voted for him in 2008 as an exercise in exercising their white racism. Those same voters would not have voted for Hillary had she one, but most centrists were so disgusted with the GOP in 2008 that the Democrats could have run just about anyone short of Cynthia McKinney and still won the presidency.

    That's just me.
  46. @bjdubbs
    Anne Frank test is a little on the nose. It should be called the ALF test. Would you harbor an alien in your own attic, like ALF. Of course ALF (Annelies Frank) is really Anne Frank.

    The eyebrows, the epic schnoz, I never picked up on the allegory at the time. Is there more to it? I can’t remember much but for the wisecracking.

  47. @Cagey Beast
    So where is Jeffery Goldberg planning to hide now that McCain's attic isn't available?

    There is still space in Lindsey Graham’s attic.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    There's probably a cozy piano bar up there with a neon sign that says "Lindsey's Hideaway".
    , @Reg Cæsar

    There is still space in Lindsey Graham’s attic.
     
    Or Barney Frank's basement.
  48. “Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?”

    HRC did. She would have had a much better chance of getting the 2008 Democratic nomination if she had been against the war from the beginning, and I think at least a small part of the appeal of crazy Bernie and bloodless Jill was their unsmirchable record of opposing the war.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Yup, Hillary probably would have eked out a win over McCain in 2008 when her health was still okay. But she still got the 2016 nomination despite favoring the Iraq War and being pretty decrepit by then.
  49. @That Guy
    How about a Stalinist twist on this test. When the totalitarian goons come knocking at 3am looking for the thought criminals, who will hide them? Goldberg and McCain? Highly doubtful . . .

    Goldberg and McCain (before he died) would be part of the pack of goons knocking down your door.

  50. @That Guy
    How about a Stalinist twist on this test. When the totalitarian goons come knocking at 3am looking for the thought criminals, who will hide them? Goldberg and McCain? Highly doubtful . . .

    Well at least McCain has the excuse of being dead.

  51. @MikeatMikedotMike
    " Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq;"

    Steve, I know you have a soft spot for Obama for some reason, but let's not spin this issue. If Gore had been president, Obama would have made no such sensible speech when he (Gore) invaded Iraq. In fact, he would have probably been the war's biggest cheerleader.

    Democrats have no problem with invading other countries as long as it's the Democrats making it happen.

    ” Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq;”

    Steve, I know you have a soft spot for Obama for some reason,

    Obama’s main good point is that he is not very enthusiastic about invading countries (e.g., he regrets being talked into the whole Libya fiasco).

    Had McCain won in 2008, we would have gone to war with Russia. So, we dodged a bullet there….

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Obama’s main good point is that he's lazy.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    I am no fan of McCain, believe me. Good riddance.

    "Obama’s main good point is that he is not very enthusiastic about invading countries (e.g., he regrets being talked into the whole Libya fiasco)."

    ...or Syria, or Yemen, or Somalia. I imagine he only regrets Libya because of how that abject disaster reflects upon his presidency, not because he cares anything about the turmoil created there.

    My original point is, that Obama's speech had less to do with him winning the presidency than he being black Jesus.
  52. @cthulhu
    “Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?”

    HRC did. She would have had a much better chance of getting the 2008 Democratic nomination if she had been against the war from the beginning, and I think at least a small part of the appeal of crazy Bernie and bloodless Jill was their unsmirchable record of opposing the war.

    Yup, Hillary probably would have eked out a win over McCain in 2008 when her health was still okay. But she still got the 2016 nomination despite favoring the Iraq War and being pretty decrepit by then.

    • Replies: @cthulhu

    ...she still got the 2016 nomination despite favoring the Iraq War...

     

    One of the great not-well-answered questions of 2016 is, to my mind, why the hell did the Democratic Party put all of its eggs in HRC’s unsound (dare I say deplorable) basket? My best guess is that the Donks saw the advantage they had with Obama in the identity politics area, and thought, “what better way to play identity politics than nominating a woman, plus it’s like getting third and forth terms for Bill without bothering with that pesky old Constitution!”

    But I think they put far too much faith in identity politics and didn’t realize that most women don’t identify themselves as women first and foremost, despite what the highly atypical women inside the Donks are like. And I think they didn’t realize what a spent force Bill was politically (of course, I think that Bill deep down was at best ambivalent about HRC ascending to the presidency, both for his gathering conviction that he would be frozen out just like he was in the campaign, and the related realization that if HRC fucked up - which he had to realize was a substantial risk - he would be blamed as much as she would be).

    It seems to me that there were a few weeks after the election where the Donks were actually thinking seriously about what went wrong for them and starting to accept significant responsibility; but then there was that disastrous Harvard public postmortem between the two campaigns, where Jennifer Palmieri in particular disavowed all responsibility for the loss and blamed it all on Kellyanne Conway supposedly playing to white identity politics (the horror! the horror!). After that, the Donks’ loss was all down to nasty Republican racism/sexism, and the Russians of course. And the Donks’ house organs, aka the MSM, has been all too willing to memory hole anything that contradicts that narrative, and Trump keeps stepping on his own dick and providing oxygen to the flames.

  53. @Tim of the North
    There is a good comment at the Spectator that McCain’s maverick nature involved punching down at the right and ending up on the side of the establishment. Pay a price for being wrong? What? That’s not how it works!

    “Pay a price for being wrong?”

    How much effort does our decrepit & discredited Elite put into insulating themselves from accountability?
    It is considerable and it’s reinforcing the other Negative Externalities of our Age like affirmative action, set asides, Blue State Govt graft, wage suppression due to mass immigration, other immigration related ailments (pollution, crime, traffic, fraying social fabric).

    It is chilling to ponder how much of our future has been stolen by 50 yrs of malevolent leadership.
    Every time i think i’ve been fully red pilled, it occurs that even more of what i had considered normal or unavoidable was just Conditioning & Propaganda.

    • Agree: Dtbb
  54. I don’t wonder what non-Jew would hide me from Nazis. I’d just sneak into some Gentile’s house and hide. If they find me and threaten to turn me over, I’ll tell the SS that the house’s owner was harboring me.

    Seems to work for Mexicans.

  55. @advancedatheist

    Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?
     
    Jews played a big role in inventing psychotherapy, and psychotherapist characters show up in the kind of popular culture Jews have produced in the last 60 years or so, indicating that enough Jews have had dealings with psychotherapists to understand the references to the profession.

    So what do psychotherapists, of any background, generally tell us to do to manage good mental health?

    They tell us to let go of the past, abandon the illusion of the ego and live in the moment.

    But what do Jews do when it comes to the things they really care about?

    They obsess over a past they didn't witness, and not just the Holocaust, but also how their great-grandparents couldn't get into WASP country clubs a century ago. They show fragile and easily bruised egos. And they worry incessantly that "Nazis" will come back to stuff them into camps or something.

    Jews really need to follow their own psychotherapists' advice and, you know, get over themselves.

    It’s not just the holofraud and country clubs. Many are obsessed with medieval Poland and Popes and Queen Isabella, Eleanor of Aquitaine and other European leaders who protected their people from the slave trading usurious Jews.

    It’s amazing how Jews have completely reversed the history of Polish Jews. They were a rapacious over class who sold many Christian Poles as slaves down the rivers to the Turks. They were put in charge of vast estates and given the power to execute dissidents and pretty much owned the country and treated the masses worse than most slaves were treated.

    Yet because of a few peasant rebellions against the vicious overclass the Jews hate Poland more than they hate the Christian churches.

  56. In 2008, the left and left media painted McCain as a racist/Nazi/KKK. Recently, that McCain turned on the Republicans and became an anti-Trump crusader, the left recast him as a hero and champion for the underdog.

    McCain campaigned in 2016 on “leading the fight to stop Obamacare”, then when he won, in 2017, completely reversed course, and cast the deciding vote against the Obamacare Skinny Repeal. This was a selfish political move that backstabbed his own voters and supporters who chose him on his advocated policy positions.

  57. @Frankie P
    There is still space in Lindsey Graham's attic.

    There’s probably a cozy piano bar up there with a neon sign that says “Lindsey’s Hideaway”.

  58. @Blubb
    Funny story: my grandfather was part Jewish. I'm not sure how Jewish, but Jewish enough to fall afoul of the Nuremberg laws. He was, however, a Nazi. As in, an actual, card carrying Nazi, from early on.

    When the Nuremberg laws were passed, that put him in a bit of a predicament: technically, he wasn't allowed to be a Nazi, and a host of other things. Fortunately, being a Nazi, he was well acquainted with the local Nazi mayor. So he went to him and said: mate, I've got a problem. And his mate said: No worries, I've got access to the official records, stamps and all.

    Well, come next morning he had a problem no more. So I take it my grandfather's mate, the Nazi mayor, he passes the Anne Frank test? Yes?

    Helmut Schmidt’s grandfather was Jewish.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    I wish social democrats today were more like him.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ls32jTTP24
  59. @Coemgen
    When I think of John McCain, I think of John McCain handing the "Steele Dossier" to James Comey.

    No amount of eulogizing "The Maverick of the Senate" will change that.

    Aside, isn't it interesting that "The Maverick of the Senate" died on 8/25 as did "The Lion of the Senate" and both died of glioblastoma? There's something there there but, it's just beyond the fringes of my imagination (or perhaps power of perception).

    It pales in comparison to Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both dying on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

  60. @Steve Sailer
    Yup, Hillary probably would have eked out a win over McCain in 2008 when her health was still okay. But she still got the 2016 nomination despite favoring the Iraq War and being pretty decrepit by then.

    …she still got the 2016 nomination despite favoring the Iraq War…

    One of the great not-well-answered questions of 2016 is, to my mind, why the hell did the Democratic Party put all of its eggs in HRC’s unsound (dare I say deplorable) basket? My best guess is that the Donks saw the advantage they had with Obama in the identity politics area, and thought, “what better way to play identity politics than nominating a woman, plus it’s like getting third and forth terms for Bill without bothering with that pesky old Constitution!”

    But I think they put far too much faith in identity politics and didn’t realize that most women don’t identify themselves as women first and foremost, despite what the highly atypical women inside the Donks are like. And I think they didn’t realize what a spent force Bill was politically (of course, I think that Bill deep down was at best ambivalent about HRC ascending to the presidency, both for his gathering conviction that he would be frozen out just like he was in the campaign, and the related realization that if HRC fucked up – which he had to realize was a substantial risk – he would be blamed as much as she would be).

    It seems to me that there were a few weeks after the election where the Donks were actually thinking seriously about what went wrong for them and starting to accept significant responsibility; but then there was that disastrous Harvard public postmortem between the two campaigns, where Jennifer Palmieri in particular disavowed all responsibility for the loss and blamed it all on Kellyanne Conway supposedly playing to white identity politics (the horror! the horror!). After that, the Donks’ loss was all down to nasty Republican racism/sexism, and the Russians of course. And the Donks’ house organs, aka the MSM, has been all too willing to memory hole anything that contradicts that narrative, and Trump keeps stepping on his own dick and providing oxygen to the flames.

  61. @Simply Simon
    There is at least one exception, Capt Lance Sijak USAF Academy graduate. He was in the back seat of an F4 Phantom downed in Vietnam. The story of his escape and evasion from the North Vietnamese is one of the most remarkable I have ever read or heard about. He was finally captured and taken to the Hanoi Hilton where he was tortured but refused to tell his captors anything. He died there.
    His Phantom was not shot down, rather it was destroyed as a result of the bombs his pilot was dropping prematurely exploded on release killing the pilot. Sijak although hurt manged to eject from the aircraft. Jolley Green helicopters were sent out for his rescue but he waved them off telling the crew over his survival radio that it was too dangerous because of enemy fire. I would normally agree that being shot down and becoming a POW does not necessarily make one a hero but Sijak is the exception.
  62. Anon[190] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s funny how all those authoritarians like Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi don’t look so bad these days. The United States can often leave chaos in its wake. The demonstrated inability to “nation build” in tribal countries should be apparent by now. Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending were onto something.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Net result of these couple of decades of adventure was to burn down the various secular Baath parties and install islamists to rule the ruins instead.
  63. @Jim Given
    What we learn: John McCain was a truly great man because he believed that people who "rule through murder" are "just like Hitler"; thus "we" must murder them.

    Warning: Do not apply this chain of reasoning to any other foreign heads of state!

    But the interesting question I have is this: Was McCain really guided by a view of history so childish and breathtakingly ignorant? Consider the power this man wielded!!

    Given how many Americans hold such childish and historically ignorant views, I don’t doubt that McCain did too. I lost count of how many Facebook comments I’ve seen like “my grandfather fought Nazis
    in Europe and we need to fight them here.” As if an expansionist foreign army of millions of men is equivalent to a few hundred law-abiding US citizens demanding that they not be replaced.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's getting so I can't stand to read very many sites anymore. Glad I'm not on FB. Even the general-interest sites I see are full of paeans to McCain as 'the last great American hero' ... the leader who put principle before politics, etc etc. VDare, Taki's, and this place are it for me now. DM now and then, when the need for salacious news strikes.

    We woke folks need to create an aggregator like Google News, only, uh, woke.
  64. @syonredux

    ” Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq;”

    Steve, I know you have a soft spot for Obama for some reason,
     
    Obama's main good point is that he is not very enthusiastic about invading countries (e.g., he regrets being talked into the whole Libya fiasco).

    Had McCain won in 2008, we would have gone to war with Russia. So, we dodged a bullet there....

    Obama’s main good point is that he’s lazy.

  65. @Flip
    Helmut Schmidt's grandfather was Jewish.

    I wish social democrats today were more like him.

    • Replies: @Flip
    I remember him criticizing the US under Carter for letting the value of the dollar decline significantly, saying what kind of country does that. He was, of course, right.
  66. Didn’t we learn from Hitler?

    We spoke every so often about the Holocaust …

    Jews should be well-armed

    He’s your hero, America. You’re welcome to him.

  67. @Simply Simon
    There is at least one exception, Capt Lance Sijak USAF Academy graduate. He was in the back seat of an F4 Phantom downed in Vietnam. The story of his escape and evasion from the North Vietnamese is one of the most remarkable I have ever read or heard about. He was finally captured and taken to the Hanoi Hilton where he was tortured but refused to tell his captors anything. He died there.
    His Phantom was not shot down, rather it was destroyed as a result of the bombs his pilot was dropping prematurely exploded on release killing the pilot. Sijak although hurt manged to eject from the aircraft. Jolley Green helicopters were sent out for his rescue but he waved them off telling the crew over his survival radio that it was too dangerous because of enemy fire. I would normally agree that being shot down and becoming a POW does not necessarily make one a hero but Sijak is the exception.

    Lance Sijan. My brother went to the AFA. His dorm hall was named for Sijan.

  68. @Blubb
    Funny story: my grandfather was part Jewish. I'm not sure how Jewish, but Jewish enough to fall afoul of the Nuremberg laws. He was, however, a Nazi. As in, an actual, card carrying Nazi, from early on.

    When the Nuremberg laws were passed, that put him in a bit of a predicament: technically, he wasn't allowed to be a Nazi, and a host of other things. Fortunately, being a Nazi, he was well acquainted with the local Nazi mayor. So he went to him and said: mate, I've got a problem. And his mate said: No worries, I've got access to the official records, stamps and all.

    Well, come next morning he had a problem no more. So I take it my grandfather's mate, the Nazi mayor, he passes the Anne Frank test? Yes?

    When I was a kid I hid in the closet for about 45 minutes to get out of going to Sunday morning mass. I was found, and then I was taken to mass (late) against my will. I barely survived.

    Do I pass?

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    That depends. Were you hiding from a proper Mass, or was it a guitar Mass?
  69. Such a tool, even Lieberman had to coach him

  70. Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?

    Does JEB! count?

  71. “The senator spent decades demonstrating his willingness to fight powerful men who abused powerless people.”

    Early in his Senate career, wasn’t McCain part of the whole “Keating 5”? The whole Savings and Loan, defrauding people out of their savings, etc. etc.? Wasn’t he a part of that as one of the corruptible Senators in Charles Keating’s pocket?

    Just asking.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Early in his Senate career, wasn’t McCain part of the whole “Keating 5″? The whole Savings and Loan, defrauding people out of their savings, etc. etc.? Wasn’t he a part of that as one of the corruptible Senators in Charles Keating’s pocket?
     
    Yes and no. IIRC, McCain was somewhat less "guilty" than the other four who were all Ds, but the Ds insisted that at least 1 R had to go down too, so McCain was it.

    McCain never forgot this smirch on his honor, and it made him determined to get "campaign finance reform", aka how to use complicated rules to trip up your opponent, passed. GWB signed CFR after pledging not to during his campaign.

    The whole CFR thing was an astro turf operation by Pew that convinced enough congress critters to vote for it. There is even a transcript of a Pew guy bragging about it.
  72. I don’t get it. Israel is a loft in Amsterdam and the Iraqis, Syrians, and Iranians are Nazis?

  73. @Steve Sailer
    Did Hillary make an anti-war speech against Bush?

    She might have won in 2008 if she had, so I guess we can count her, although her setback was only temporary.

    In 2008, Obama was the new hotness and Hillary was old and busted (to borrow from MiB). I don’t give his anti-war speech from 2002 as much credit for his nomination in 2008 as I do his being an teleprompt-iculate youngish black guy with the backing of the Chicago political machine. I know quite a few Republican voters who voted for him in 2008 as an exercise in exercising their white racism. Those same voters would not have voted for Hillary had she one, but most centrists were so disgusted with the GOP in 2008 that the Democrats could have run just about anyone short of Cynthia McKinney and still won the presidency.

    That’s just me.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    I know quite a few Republican voters who voted for him in 2008 as an exercise in exercising their white racism.
     
    My daughter was a college freshman in 2008 and she said everyone she knew voted for BHO.
  74. @Not Raul
    That’s the funny thing about torture. They could have gotten you to say anything.

    Why didn’t they get all the other PoWs to do it as well then?

  75. Atlantic Editors Jeffrey Goldberg and Wieseltier discussing Jews and Europe:

    Q: What’s the most Jewish thing for a Jew to do when he leaves Europe?

    Wieseltier/Goldberg: Spit

    Video: https://mobile.twitter.com/westland_will/status/965800502695886849

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Wow. What a SOB.
    , @Anonymous
    Ah yes, spitting. It's a Jewish thing, you wouldn't understand.

    https://www.haaretz.com/1.4715226

    https://www.opendoorsusa.org/take-action/pray/christians-feel-growing-oppression-in-israel/
  76. “John McCain Would Have Passed the Anne Frank Test.”

    bored identity can assure y’all that Jeffrey Der Aufseher Goldberg would rather take a pass on the Hans Frank Test:

    ” I would like to say here that I do not want to argue or quibble about individual phrases.

    It was a wild and stormy period filled with terrible passions, and when a whole country is on fire and a life and death struggle is going on, such words may easily be used…

    Some of the words are terrible.

    I myself must admit that I was shocked at many of the words which I had used.”

  77. @syonredux

    ” Barack Obama received a career boost for making a single sensible speech in 2002 opposing invading Iraq;”

    Steve, I know you have a soft spot for Obama for some reason,
     
    Obama's main good point is that he is not very enthusiastic about invading countries (e.g., he regrets being talked into the whole Libya fiasco).

    Had McCain won in 2008, we would have gone to war with Russia. So, we dodged a bullet there....

    I am no fan of McCain, believe me. Good riddance.

    “Obama’s main good point is that he is not very enthusiastic about invading countries (e.g., he regrets being talked into the whole Libya fiasco).”

    …or Syria, or Yemen, or Somalia. I imagine he only regrets Libya because of how that abject disaster reflects upon his presidency, not because he cares anything about the turmoil created there.

    My original point is, that Obama’s speech had less to do with him winning the presidency than he being black Jesus.

  78. I get the sense that Goldberg was surprised by McCain’s sincerity. McCain comes off as a fanatic, who seriously believes Neoconserative propaganda, as if he were the member of a cult.

  79. @Spud Boy
    "Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?"

    Wrong about what? Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.

    Wrong about what? Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.

    We have weapons of mass destruction too. They’re called Hellfire missiles, Spectre Gun Ships, 50 caliber machineguns, etc. At least, if you use them often enough over a long enough time, they cause mass destruction. But for some reason, our weapons of mass destruction aren’t called weapons of mass destruction.

  80. @Blubb
    Funny story: my grandfather was part Jewish. I'm not sure how Jewish, but Jewish enough to fall afoul of the Nuremberg laws. He was, however, a Nazi. As in, an actual, card carrying Nazi, from early on.

    When the Nuremberg laws were passed, that put him in a bit of a predicament: technically, he wasn't allowed to be a Nazi, and a host of other things. Fortunately, being a Nazi, he was well acquainted with the local Nazi mayor. So he went to him and said: mate, I've got a problem. And his mate said: No worries, I've got access to the official records, stamps and all.

    Well, come next morning he had a problem no more. So I take it my grandfather's mate, the Nazi mayor, he passes the Anne Frank test? Yes?

    Strange that he wanted to continue being a Nazi despite knowing how the party thought about some of his ancestors.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Strange that he wanted to continue being a Nazi despite knowing how the party thought about some of his ancestors.
     
    Most current nationalities are the result of the melding of disparate tribes. That melding means the rejection of one ancestry in favor of another. Is a given member descended from conqueror or conquered? Who cares? Do Jews worry about their pagan roots, before Judaism came into being (i.e. before the Torah, like all religious scriptures, was invented out of whole cloth)? They reject the idea that there was ever such a pagan phase.
    , @Anonym
    Many many WNs are mischlinge. Which makes sense considering that tribalism is in the Jewish DNA.
  81. George Soros has released a very kind tweet about how wonderful McCain was. Now we know a little bit more about his foreign policy choices. I think the man was out of his mind. I think the guilt about making broadcasts for the North Vietnamese without being tortured drove him out of his nut. McCain was cookoo as a jaybird as they say in the south.

  82. @Spud Boy
    "Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?"

    Wrong about what? Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.

    Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.

    The hardware, and technical expertise needed to produce the poison gas was arranged by Donald Rumsfeld and provided by none other than Uncle Sam.

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2004/06/17/how-reagan-armed-saddam-with-chemical-weapons/

  83. Holy shit I’m Jewish and I wouldn’t pass Jeffrey Goldberg’s ‘Anne Frank test.’ I’d show them the bookshelf he was hiding behind.

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
  84. @Anonymous
    The Anne Frank test: "Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?"

    The Soros test: Which Jewish friends would help the Nazis hunt you down?

    The Anne Frank test: “Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?”

    The Solzhenitsyn test: “Which Jewish individuals would risk their reputations to allow publication of a book that explores the role played by the Jewish Bolsheviks in the execution of the greatest mass murder of the twentieth century.”

  85. “Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?”

    is typically, only half the story.

    Its mirror image: “Which Jew (am I one of them?) has lived such a virtuous life that a gentile would risk their lives hiding them?” would never occur to a Goldberg.

    • Replies: @anon
    Excellent point. Note too how slanted the question is. Hiding them is not just a matter of showing goodwill and 'doing the right thing', it actually imposes real risks and costs on the person in question and possibly their families too. They are conceivably risking their own lives as well.
    , @Anonymous
    He said they were Jewish, right? That's virtue enough that goyische lives are as nothing in comparison.
  86. ‘I supported the invasion for more-or-less the same reason McCain did—I wanted to see the Kurdish people, the preeminent victims of Saddam’s genocidal fury, suffer no more.’

    Jeffrey Goldberg is a lying Zionist shit. He supported the invasion of Iraq — and manipulated the US into carrying it out — for the same reason all the other lying Zionist shits did: because Israel found Saddam Hussein inconvenient.

  87. @MikeatMikedotMike
    When I was a kid I hid in the closet for about 45 minutes to get out of going to Sunday morning mass. I was found, and then I was taken to mass (late) against my will. I barely survived.

    Do I pass?

    That depends. Were you hiding from a proper Mass, or was it a guitar Mass?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I remember those damnable guitar masses. A fat woman with a cheap nylon string strumming campfire cowboy chords with a felt flatpick.

    Usually out of tune too.

    The Prods did it better. I attended a Sunday Presbyterian service with a band that was a little loud but otherwise good. Solid uptunes, although none I recognized. Another she-guitarist, this one with a blue sparkle G and L Tele and a Twin Reverb. In tune, good timing, tasteful licks and comping.
  88. After reading the ADL tweet denouncing Trump over his South Africa tweet, I think we ought to be the ones asking which of our Jewish friends would save us from demographic-change-gone-bad.

    • Agree: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    After reading the ADL tweet denouncing Trump over his South Africa tweet, I think we ought to be the ones asking which of our Jewish friends would save us from demographic-change-gone-bad.
     
    There are a few (Ron Unz for example) and it is to their everlasting credit. Unfortunately, they are marginalised and their voices are generally unheard. No megaphone have they.
  89. @Altai

    We had been discussing the American war in Iraq, which he supported steadfastly, even after everything went sideways. The cause, he said, was just. The execution, at least until the troop surge of 2007, was a disgrace, but this didn’t move him off his principles. “I hated Saddam,” he said. “He ruled through murder. Didn’t we learn from Hitler that we can’t let that happen?” His hatred of Saddam, like his hatred for all dictators, burned hot
     
    At this point nobody can be fooled by this bullshit. I assume the only victims of this nonsense are those who read Goldberg articles to do anything but marvel at his epic chutzpah levels.

    Where was this contempt for Pinochet? I have a feeling McCain approved of all the mass disappearances and helicopter rides.
    https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/mccains-rendezvous-with-pinochet

    Or the Saudis? Or Mubarak? Or Musharraf? Or the Shah? Or Chung-hee Park? Or the King of Jordan? Or any of the other dictators who allied themselves with US foreign policy.

    It's almost like McCain didn't like that Saddam didn't go along with US neocon foreign policy. If he'd stayed on the good side of the US and Israel there'd never have been a problem. But alas, wars with Iran eventually end and one comes to no longer be of use.

    The thing with neocons and the middle east is they'll criticise a dictator for all the unpopular things but then replace him with somebody who does the same unpopular things just now without any of the popular (Standing up to Israel) things.

    And what about the genocide of the historic American nation?

  90. @Spud Boy
    "Did anybody pay a career price for being wrong about Iraq in 2002-2003?"

    Wrong about what? Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja chemical attack in 1988, killing 7000 to 10,000 people.

    “He had weapons of mass destruction”.

    Then why didn’t he drop a bomb on the invading American army? He had nothing to lose.

    China, Russia, Pakistan and Israel have weapons of mass destruction (for real). Should we attack them too?

    The USA also has weapons of mass destruction btw.

  91. anon[146] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThreeCranes
    "Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?"

    is typically, only half the story.

    Its mirror image: "Which Jew (am I one of them?) has lived such a virtuous life that a gentile would risk their lives hiding them?" would never occur to a Goldberg.

    Excellent point. Note too how slanted the question is. Hiding them is not just a matter of showing goodwill and ‘doing the right thing’, it actually imposes real risks and costs on the person in question and possibly their families too. They are conceivably risking their own lives as well.

    • Replies: @Moses

    They are conceivably risking their own lives as well.
     
    Silly comment. Everyone knows that 1,000 Goyische Kopf lives aren't worth even 1 Jewish life. Protecting Jews at the cost of Goy lives is not only G-d's will but the very measure of a person's morality.

    After all, we are the Chosen.

  92. @Anonymous
    Atlantic Editors Jeffrey Goldberg and Wieseltier discussing Jews and Europe:

    Q: What's the most Jewish thing for a Jew to do when he leaves Europe?

    Wieseltier/Goldberg: Spit

    Video: https://mobile.twitter.com/westland_will/status/965800502695886849

    Wow. What a SOB.

  93. @Bill P
    Well, McCain didn't get elected, although it didn't seem like he tried all that hard.

    I don't get all these hagiographic columns on McCain.

    First, he wasn't a "war hero." Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero. He probably couldn't have become a pilot if his dad wasn't an admiral, and when he did get his wings he crashed several times.

    He was actually kind of an embarrassment, but he must have done something for Arizona, if not the United States as a whole.

    I thought he was a terrible presidential candidate, and apparently lots of other people did, too. But he did exactly what the Democrats wanted when he lost badly to Obama while refusing to bring up the more unsavory aspects of the former President. Sometimes it seems like he was just carrying water for them all along.

    So I guess that explains the hagiographies.

    But he did exactly what the Democrats wanted when he lost badly to Obama while refusing to bring up the more unsavory aspects of the former President. Sometimes it seems like he was just carrying water for them all along.

    He also did what the Republicans wanted when he promoted Bush’s Iraq War and refused to bring up the unsavory aspects of his presidency.

    McCain had a 81 rating from the American Conservative Union (in comparison to the Republican media of 87) and voted for almost all of Trump’s nominees. He was stylistically moderate, but voted like you’d expect from a Republican senator.

    In a way, he tried to make everyone important happy.

  94. @Frankie P
    There is still space in Lindsey Graham's attic.

    There is still space in Lindsey Graham’s attic.

    Or Barney Frank’s basement.

  95. And the lesser-known reverse Ann Frank test — Which Jews will shield the Whites from the anti-White pograms coming after Whites slip into the minority in America?

    I think current events in South Africa answer that question. A certain ethnic group scorns any mention of genocidal anti-White behavior in SA as a “White supremacist talking point.”

    • Agree: AndrewR
  96. @anon
    Excellent point. Note too how slanted the question is. Hiding them is not just a matter of showing goodwill and 'doing the right thing', it actually imposes real risks and costs on the person in question and possibly their families too. They are conceivably risking their own lives as well.

    They are conceivably risking their own lives as well.

    Silly comment. Everyone knows that 1,000 Goyische Kopf lives aren’t worth even 1 Jewish life. Protecting Jews at the cost of Goy lives is not only G-d’s will but the very measure of a person’s morality.

    After all, we are the Chosen.

  97. @Escher
    Strange that he wanted to continue being a Nazi despite knowing how the party thought about some of his ancestors.

    Strange that he wanted to continue being a Nazi despite knowing how the party thought about some of his ancestors.

    Most current nationalities are the result of the melding of disparate tribes. That melding means the rejection of one ancestry in favor of another. Is a given member descended from conqueror or conquered? Who cares? Do Jews worry about their pagan roots, before Judaism came into being (i.e. before the Torah, like all religious scriptures, was invented out of whole cloth)? They reject the idea that there was ever such a pagan phase.

  98. @advancedatheist

    Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?
     
    Jews played a big role in inventing psychotherapy, and psychotherapist characters show up in the kind of popular culture Jews have produced in the last 60 years or so, indicating that enough Jews have had dealings with psychotherapists to understand the references to the profession.

    So what do psychotherapists, of any background, generally tell us to do to manage good mental health?

    They tell us to let go of the past, abandon the illusion of the ego and live in the moment.

    But what do Jews do when it comes to the things they really care about?

    They obsess over a past they didn't witness, and not just the Holocaust, but also how their great-grandparents couldn't get into WASP country clubs a century ago. They show fragile and easily bruised egos. And they worry incessantly that "Nazis" will come back to stuff them into camps or something.

    Jews really need to follow their own psychotherapists' advice and, you know, get over themselves.

    I don’t disagree but it does seem to me that the Anne Frank test is merely a holocaust themed version of the close friend test.

  99. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR
    Given how many Americans hold such childish and historically ignorant views, I don't doubt that McCain did too. I lost count of how many Facebook comments I've seen like "my grandfather fought Nazis
    in Europe and we need to fight them here." As if an expansionist foreign army of millions of men is equivalent to a few hundred law-abiding US citizens demanding that they not be replaced.

    It’s getting so I can’t stand to read very many sites anymore. Glad I’m not on FB. Even the general-interest sites I see are full of paeans to McCain as ‘the last great American hero’ … the leader who put principle before politics, etc etc. VDare, Taki’s, and this place are it for me now. DM now and then, when the need for salacious news strikes.

    We woke folks need to create an aggregator like Google News, only, uh, woke.

  100. @Anonymous
    Atlantic Editors Jeffrey Goldberg and Wieseltier discussing Jews and Europe:

    Q: What's the most Jewish thing for a Jew to do when he leaves Europe?

    Wieseltier/Goldberg: Spit

    Video: https://mobile.twitter.com/westland_will/status/965800502695886849
  101. @ThreeCranes
    "Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?"

    is typically, only half the story.

    Its mirror image: "Which Jew (am I one of them?) has lived such a virtuous life that a gentile would risk their lives hiding them?" would never occur to a Goldberg.

    He said they were Jewish, right? That’s virtue enough that goyische lives are as nothing in comparison.

  102. @istevefan
    After reading the ADL tweet denouncing Trump over his South Africa tweet, I think we ought to be the ones asking which of our Jewish friends would save us from demographic-change-gone-bad.

    After reading the ADL tweet denouncing Trump over his South Africa tweet, I think we ought to be the ones asking which of our Jewish friends would save us from demographic-change-gone-bad.

    There are a few (Ron Unz for example) and it is to their everlasting credit. Unfortunately, they are marginalised and their voices are generally unheard. No megaphone have they.

  103. @Bill P
    Well, McCain didn't get elected, although it didn't seem like he tried all that hard.

    I don't get all these hagiographic columns on McCain.

    First, he wasn't a "war hero." Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero. He probably couldn't have become a pilot if his dad wasn't an admiral, and when he did get his wings he crashed several times.

    He was actually kind of an embarrassment, but he must have done something for Arizona, if not the United States as a whole.

    I thought he was a terrible presidential candidate, and apparently lots of other people did, too. But he did exactly what the Democrats wanted when he lost badly to Obama while refusing to bring up the more unsavory aspects of the former President. Sometimes it seems like he was just carrying water for them all along.

    So I guess that explains the hagiographies.

    Maybe McCain’s heroism lay in nearly taking out a carrier by himself?

  104. @Escher
    Strange that he wanted to continue being a Nazi despite knowing how the party thought about some of his ancestors.

    Many many WNs are mischlinge. Which makes sense considering that tribalism is in the Jewish DNA.

  105. @Anon
    It's funny how all those authoritarians like Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi don't look so bad these days. The United States can often leave chaos in its wake. The demonstrated inability to "nation build" in tribal countries should be apparent by now. Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending were onto something.

    Net result of these couple of decades of adventure was to burn down the various secular Baath parties and install islamists to rule the ruins instead.

  106. Anonymous[278] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    That depends. Were you hiding from a proper Mass, or was it a guitar Mass?

    I remember those damnable guitar masses. A fat woman with a cheap nylon string strumming campfire cowboy chords with a felt flatpick.

    Usually out of tune too.

    The Prods did it better. I attended a Sunday Presbyterian service with a band that was a little loud but otherwise good. Solid uptunes, although none I recognized. Another she-guitarist, this one with a blue sparkle G and L Tele and a Twin Reverb. In tune, good timing, tasteful licks and comping.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    I'll take Latin and polyphony over any of the above.

    I'll also take stained glass windows and 14th- and 15th-century Italian depictions of the Holy Family or the Lives of the Saints over those hideous felt banners.

    , @cthulhu


    ...Another she-guitarist, this one with a blue sparkle G and L Tele and a Twin Reverb...

     

    Must have been well-infused with the Holy Spirit to haul the Heaviest Amp Under The Kingdom Of Heaven to church and back every Sunday. But even God recognizes that sometimes, you gotta plug into the one and only righteous King of Clean.
  107. McCain wasn’t very bright, was he?

    I think he fooled a lot people with his simplistic grunts that he deeply understood issues because he seemed so certain of his views.

    But any 17 year old can speak in an uninformed but passionate way.

    He was Forrest Gump, but an asshole.

  108. only a liberal would ask that question, most real survivors of camps or being partisans, would not think that way or ask such a silly question, they would instead ask “What gentile will kill me”, they would assume no one would help them. To people like goldberg, the shoah is just a talking point.

  109. @Simply Simon
    There is at least one exception, Capt Lance Sijak USAF Academy graduate. He was in the back seat of an F4 Phantom downed in Vietnam. The story of his escape and evasion from the North Vietnamese is one of the most remarkable I have ever read or heard about. He was finally captured and taken to the Hanoi Hilton where he was tortured but refused to tell his captors anything. He died there.
    His Phantom was not shot down, rather it was destroyed as a result of the bombs his pilot was dropping prematurely exploded on release killing the pilot. Sijak although hurt manged to eject from the aircraft. Jolley Green helicopters were sent out for his rescue but he waved them off telling the crew over his survival radio that it was too dangerous because of enemy fire. I would normally agree that being shot down and becoming a POW does not necessarily make one a hero but Sijak is the exception.

    The word “hero” has been so overused since 9/11 that it has no meaning anymore. The I read about Capt. Sijan and am reminded that the word still has its uses.

  110. @Anonymous

    The single dumbest policy decision of the 21st century
     
    By what metric ? Just one example out of many of worse policy decisions.

    Flooding the USA with Somalis in particular and Muslims in general was a far worse policy decision. I know you will connect the policies in your magnum opus theory "Invade/Invite the world", but it would be only partially true. For one thing ,we import Muslims from countries we never invaded .

    How about cost? Per Reuters:

    Iraq war costs U.S. more than $2 trillion: study. NEW YORK (Reuters) – The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.Mar 14, 2013

  111. @Blubb
    Funny story: my grandfather was part Jewish. I'm not sure how Jewish, but Jewish enough to fall afoul of the Nuremberg laws. He was, however, a Nazi. As in, an actual, card carrying Nazi, from early on.

    When the Nuremberg laws were passed, that put him in a bit of a predicament: technically, he wasn't allowed to be a Nazi, and a host of other things. Fortunately, being a Nazi, he was well acquainted with the local Nazi mayor. So he went to him and said: mate, I've got a problem. And his mate said: No worries, I've got access to the official records, stamps and all.

    Well, come next morning he had a problem no more. So I take it my grandfather's mate, the Nazi mayor, he passes the Anne Frank test? Yes?

    If the Jewish ancestor was male, the usual solution was to have your mother/grandmother testify that she had been unfaithful and had cheated with an Aryan who was your REAL father/grandfather.

  112. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "The senator spent decades demonstrating his willingness to fight powerful men who abused powerless people."

    Early in his Senate career, wasn't McCain part of the whole "Keating 5"? The whole Savings and Loan, defrauding people out of their savings, etc. etc.? Wasn't he a part of that as one of the corruptible Senators in Charles Keating's pocket?

    Just asking.

    Early in his Senate career, wasn’t McCain part of the whole “Keating 5″? The whole Savings and Loan, defrauding people out of their savings, etc. etc.? Wasn’t he a part of that as one of the corruptible Senators in Charles Keating’s pocket?

    Yes and no. IIRC, McCain was somewhat less “guilty” than the other four who were all Ds, but the Ds insisted that at least 1 R had to go down too, so McCain was it.

    McCain never forgot this smirch on his honor, and it made him determined to get “campaign finance reform”, aka how to use complicated rules to trip up your opponent, passed. GWB signed CFR after pledging not to during his campaign.

    The whole CFR thing was an astro turf operation by Pew that convinced enough congress critters to vote for it. There is even a transcript of a Pew guy bragging about it.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    So it's still a yes. So much for being a man of the people.

    Also the way he divorced his first wife (who became crippled in a car accident) doesn't look good on his shinning stellar character, either.
  113. @MikeatMikedotMike
    In 2008, Obama was the new hotness and Hillary was old and busted (to borrow from MiB). I don't give his anti-war speech from 2002 as much credit for his nomination in 2008 as I do his being an teleprompt-iculate youngish black guy with the backing of the Chicago political machine. I know quite a few Republican voters who voted for him in 2008 as an exercise in exercising their white racism. Those same voters would not have voted for Hillary had she one, but most centrists were so disgusted with the GOP in 2008 that the Democrats could have run just about anyone short of Cynthia McKinney and still won the presidency.

    That's just me.

    I know quite a few Republican voters who voted for him in 2008 as an exercise in exercising their white racism.

    My daughter was a college freshman in 2008 and she said everyone she knew voted for BHO.

  114. SMK says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    The Anne Frank test: "Which non-Jewish friends would risk their lives to hide us should the Nazis ever return?"

    The Soros test: Which Jewish friends would help the Nazis hunt you down?

    Exactly how, when, and where will the Nazis “return” in the sense of having the power to exterminate Jews? When the U.S. is transformed into a nonwhite-majority country? Nazism died when Hitler committed suicide in 1946. There was no Nazi regime before Hitler and there has been no Nazi regime since. Jew hatred is “on the rise” in Western Europe, not because of Nazis but because of Muslims.

    Oh, I forgot, Trump was elected President, and Charlottesville, where “Nazis” were attacked by communists, exalted as heroes by the media and John McCain, while the police did nothing to stop the violence.

  115. @Anonymous
    I remember those damnable guitar masses. A fat woman with a cheap nylon string strumming campfire cowboy chords with a felt flatpick.

    Usually out of tune too.

    The Prods did it better. I attended a Sunday Presbyterian service with a band that was a little loud but otherwise good. Solid uptunes, although none I recognized. Another she-guitarist, this one with a blue sparkle G and L Tele and a Twin Reverb. In tune, good timing, tasteful licks and comping.

    I’ll take Latin and polyphony over any of the above.

    I’ll also take stained glass windows and 14th- and 15th-century Italian depictions of the Holy Family or the Lives of the Saints over those hideous felt banners.

    • Replies: @Corn
    I’m an agnostic but was raised Catholic. My parents never took me to a Latin Mass but I’d like to go despite being an agnostic. Curious about the ritual and respect for the tradition I guess.
  116. @Marty
    Well, Michael Kelly probably supported the invasion too, and just think how good The Atlantic could be if he’d become its editor.

    I have some hope that Mike Kelly and John McCain are in different places despite their common mistake.

    Where McCain is I imagine he’ll get his fill of devilish commentary.

  117. @Rosamond Vincy
    I'll take Latin and polyphony over any of the above.

    I'll also take stained glass windows and 14th- and 15th-century Italian depictions of the Holy Family or the Lives of the Saints over those hideous felt banners.

    I’m an agnostic but was raised Catholic. My parents never took me to a Latin Mass but I’d like to go despite being an agnostic. Curious about the ritual and respect for the tradition I guess.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Maybe you're agnostic because you've never been to a Latin Mass.

    If the plainchant and soaring church architecture of previous centuries were meant to inspire, the guitar masses and post-modern lumps of the late 20th century were practically guaranteed to do the opposite.
  118. @Corn
    I’m an agnostic but was raised Catholic. My parents never took me to a Latin Mass but I’d like to go despite being an agnostic. Curious about the ritual and respect for the tradition I guess.

    Maybe you’re agnostic because you’ve never been to a Latin Mass.

    If the plainchant and soaring church architecture of previous centuries were meant to inspire, the guitar masses and post-modern lumps of the late 20th century were practically guaranteed to do the opposite.

  119. @Cagey Beast
    I wish social democrats today were more like him.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ls32jTTP24

    I remember him criticizing the US under Carter for letting the value of the dollar decline significantly, saying what kind of country does that. He was, of course, right.

  120. @syonredux

    First, he wasn’t a “war hero.” Being shot down and captured does not make one a war hero.
     
    Old, weird America: You're a war hero for doing stuff ( Eisenhower, Audie Murphy, Eddie Rickenbacker, etc)

    New, vibrant America: You're a war hero for suffering.

    Eisenhower never actually saw combat.

    I don’t know if McCain qualified as a “hero” or not, but he did volunteer for dangerous combat missions even though he had the connections to avoid them and he did so during a conflict in which many men sought to avoid combat.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Eisenhower never actually saw combat.
     
    Didn't said that he did. Ike's great accomplishment was organizing the invasion of Nazi-held Western Europe.
    , @Anonymous
    If you are a screw-up or constitutionally unsuited to combat, a rear echelon admin job or staying home and finding a non-dangerous war production job is the patriotic thing to do.
  121. @Jim Don Bob

    Early in his Senate career, wasn’t McCain part of the whole “Keating 5″? The whole Savings and Loan, defrauding people out of their savings, etc. etc.? Wasn’t he a part of that as one of the corruptible Senators in Charles Keating’s pocket?
     
    Yes and no. IIRC, McCain was somewhat less "guilty" than the other four who were all Ds, but the Ds insisted that at least 1 R had to go down too, so McCain was it.

    McCain never forgot this smirch on his honor, and it made him determined to get "campaign finance reform", aka how to use complicated rules to trip up your opponent, passed. GWB signed CFR after pledging not to during his campaign.

    The whole CFR thing was an astro turf operation by Pew that convinced enough congress critters to vote for it. There is even a transcript of a Pew guy bragging about it.

    So it’s still a yes. So much for being a man of the people.

    Also the way he divorced his first wife (who became crippled in a car accident) doesn’t look good on his shinning stellar character, either.

  122. @Anonymous
    Eisenhower never actually saw combat.

    I don't know if McCain qualified as a "hero" or not, but he did volunteer for dangerous combat missions even though he had the connections to avoid them and he did so during a conflict in which many men sought to avoid combat.

    Eisenhower never actually saw combat.

    Didn’t said that he did. Ike’s great accomplishment was organizing the invasion of Nazi-held Western Europe.

  123. @Anonymous
    Eisenhower never actually saw combat.

    I don't know if McCain qualified as a "hero" or not, but he did volunteer for dangerous combat missions even though he had the connections to avoid them and he did so during a conflict in which many men sought to avoid combat.

    If you are a screw-up or constitutionally unsuited to combat, a rear echelon admin job or staying home and finding a non-dangerous war production job is the patriotic thing to do.

  124. @Cagey Beast
    So where is Jeffery Goldberg planning to hide now that McCain's attic isn't available?

    I dunno, dude. But I hope he avoids the house of that gal in was it Evanston? who wrote at such heaving length about having the Throbbing Nazi Flag in her attic. The vibrations alone’d keep him more sleepless than the church bells across the street from the Frankenhideout.

  125. @Anonymous
    I remember those damnable guitar masses. A fat woman with a cheap nylon string strumming campfire cowboy chords with a felt flatpick.

    Usually out of tune too.

    The Prods did it better. I attended a Sunday Presbyterian service with a band that was a little loud but otherwise good. Solid uptunes, although none I recognized. Another she-guitarist, this one with a blue sparkle G and L Tele and a Twin Reverb. In tune, good timing, tasteful licks and comping.

    …Another she-guitarist, this one with a blue sparkle G and L Tele and a Twin Reverb…

    Must have been well-infused with the Holy Spirit to haul the Heaviest Amp Under The Kingdom Of Heaven to church and back every Sunday. But even God recognizes that sometimes, you gotta plug into the one and only righteous King of Clean.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I chatted with her after the gig, I mean, the service. The amp stays at the church, and sometimes the steel player uses it too (he wasn’t at this service).

    Based on her hairdo and choice of ax sure enough, her guitar idol is Little Miss Muffett. Although this woman is obviously a lot more of a player:she studied classical guitar under Doug Niedt for a while.

    A silver face TR with two JBLs weighs about eighty pounds so leaving it there is a good idea. And it’s too loud for the house anyway.
  126. Anonymous[278] • Disclaimer says:
    @cthulhu


    ...Another she-guitarist, this one with a blue sparkle G and L Tele and a Twin Reverb...

     

    Must have been well-infused with the Holy Spirit to haul the Heaviest Amp Under The Kingdom Of Heaven to church and back every Sunday. But even God recognizes that sometimes, you gotta plug into the one and only righteous King of Clean.

    I chatted with her after the gig, I mean, the service. The amp stays at the church, and sometimes the steel player uses it too (he wasn’t at this service).

    Based on her hairdo and choice of ax sure enough, her guitar idol is Little Miss Muffett. Although this woman is obviously a lot more of a player:she studied classical guitar under Doug Niedt for a while.

    A silver face TR with two JBLs weighs about eighty pounds so leaving it there is a good idea. And it’s too loud for the house anyway.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The steel boys I know won't use anything but a solid state amp with a single 15" speaker.
  127. @Anonymous
    I chatted with her after the gig, I mean, the service. The amp stays at the church, and sometimes the steel player uses it too (he wasn’t at this service).

    Based on her hairdo and choice of ax sure enough, her guitar idol is Little Miss Muffett. Although this woman is obviously a lot more of a player:she studied classical guitar under Doug Niedt for a while.

    A silver face TR with two JBLs weighs about eighty pounds so leaving it there is a good idea. And it’s too loud for the house anyway.

    The steel boys I know won’t use anything but a solid state amp with a single 15″ speaker.

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