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The Forward: The Arab-American Flight from White: Is It Good for the Jews?
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There has been much criticism, in terms of morality and feasibility, of the suggestions of GOP contenders such as Jeb Bush and Donald Trump to limit or delay importing more Muslim Middle Easterners. Common arguments against selectivity or prudence have been that the government has no way of knowing who is what, and counting and favoritism just aren’t who we are as Americans. And besides, all calls for more precision are motivated by Islamophobia and White Privilege.

Meanwhile, the Census Bureau continues to quietly test Arab ethnic activists’ demands for breaking the White category down to allow Middle Easterners and North Africans to give up their White Privilege and, in effect, become eligible finally for affirmative action privileges via disparate impact discrimination lawsuits.

My impression has long been that how the government counts has far reaching ramifications. For example, in the 1970s and early 1980s, Indian immigrant businessman demanded to no longer be considered Caucasian so that they could qualify for minority business development programs like their Oriental rivals were. Republicans didn’t object since everybody knew that Indian businessmen were natural Republicans, and so this was just politics 101: reward your friends. Except, once Indians were no longer officially white, Indian-American intellectuals immediately developed a financial interest in promoting the anti-white narratives that justify their uncles’ legal preferences over whites. Changing Indians from “Caucasian” to “Asian” added a loquacious element to the otherwise rather taciturn and unpersuasive Asian group.

So, I went looking for recent articles on this subject of the Census Bureau’s experiments with dealing with Arab demands to not be white anymore. Not surprisingly, the most interesting articles I found were in the Jewish press debating whether it would be good for the Jews. From The Forward:

U.S. Census May Add Controversial ‘Israeli’ Category

Debra Nussbaum Cohen (Haaretz)June 19, 2015

Does being Jewish mean being part of a race? Or a religion? What ethnicity are Jews? Many American Jews have found these questions difficult to answer every 10 years, when a census taker knocks on the door as part of the decennial national head count.

The only choices: “white, black or Asian” for race and, under ethnicity, “Hispanic/Latino” don’t quite fit the way many American Jews – and others – see themselves. Religion is not asked about at all, for reasons rooted both in privacy concerns and objections by American Jewry in the years immediately following the Holocaust.

Now the United States Census Bureau is testing a new category, “Middle East-North Africa” or MENA, in response to more than three decades of lobbying by Arab American organizations for a designation that better represents them. The testing, to start in September, will refine wording and sub-categories for the 2020 census. Nineteen options will be offered under the MENA designation, among them Israeli and Palestinian, as well as Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Turkish, Iranian, Moroccan and Algerian. Even Sudanese and Somali are being considered.

“Most Arabs don’t consider themselves white,” said Samer Khalaf, national president of The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, which has long lobbied for a more accurate label than “white.” Khalaf was one of 30 participants in a May 29 meeting convened by the U.S. Census Bureau so that researchers and representatives of MENA communities could discuss and offer feedback on the proposed changes.

“It’s a little arrogant for the government to dictate to any citizens what you should be identified as,” Khalaf told Haaretz later. “The MENA category was a bit of a compromise for us. In a perfect world we’d have an Arab category.” Instead, they agreed to settle on the geography-based MENA designation.

At least some in the Israeli-American community welcome the addition of a MENA option, though others prefer not to label themselves.

At a time when notions of race and ethnicity in America, like gender, are increasingly fluid, what will the addition of this category mean for the American Jewish community? If Israelis choose to be identified as part of MENA, will that in any way separate them from American Jews who opt for “white?”

And as the meaning of race is being refracted through the lens of the Rachel Dolezal scandal, after the head of the Spokane, WA NAACP chapter was outed as white, though she long identified as black, will these census changes serve to clarify ethnic identity in America or cloud the issues further?

… “We allocate billions of dollars to state and local governments based on these counts,” said Ramirez.

The last change to the race and ethnicity categories was in 1970, when Hispanic was added as an option to some questionnaires. In 1980 it became part of the form distributed to every household. While the census bureau is testing MENA and other issues under consideration for changes in the 2020 census, ultimately it is up to the White House Office of Management and Budget and the U.S. Congress to approve new classifications, Ramirez said.

To date, the only way to glean the contours of foreign-born communities has been through a census question asking where respondents were born. But that doesn’t capture people’s real sense of national/racial/ethnic identity, particularly when it comes to a country like Israel, where people are often born in other countries and there is a great deal of mobility.

Oren Heiman, chairperson of Moatza Mekomit, was part of the May 29 census meeting in Washington and is a good illustration of some of the unique challenges of Israeli identity: Born in Cincinnati, Ohio, he moved to Israel at the age of 9, where he lived in Herziliya until age 30. Now an attorney in New York, Heiman has lived here for many years and is returning shortly to Israel with his wife and infant daughter. Since he previously answered American-born, until now he would not have been counted by the U.S. government as Israeli, though it is very much the way he identifies himself.

“How do you count people who deem themselves Israeli, have Israeli citizenship, did the military, speak Hebrew at home and children who have both parents Israeli? Now if you have a MENA category, with Israeli in a drop-down menu, they can,” he said in an interview.

But some Israelis don’t even like the notion of being identified that way on a U.S. Census.

Ronit Lavi was born in St. Petersburg, Russia, to a Jewish mother and Lithuanian father. She emigrated to Israel alone as a young teenager, becoming religious, and Hebraized her name. Lavi, who is now a physical therapist in Brooklyn and lives in Sheepshead Bay, a heavily Russian-Jewish neighborhood, stayed in Israel for 16 years. Blond and with a fair complexion, she was catcalled by Israeli men and teenagers when she lived in Jerusalem. …

The addition of new census categories will be good for the Jews beyond Israeli Americans, said demographer Steven M. Cohen.

In America, with its “melting pot” orientation, Jews assimilate more rapidly than do fellow tribe members in Canada, Great Britain or Australia, which have smaller Jewish populations but cultures more sympathetic to the perpetuation of ethnic group ties, Cohen said.

“Being unwelcoming of the perpetuation of ethnic identity actually speeds up Jewish assimilation,” he told Haaretz. “Jews have an interest in an America which is more vividly Hispanic, Hindu, Muslim and Middle Eastern. This would be a small blow in favor of recognizing ethnic variation in America, which in the long run will survive as a distinct ethnic group.”

“Anything that fosters ethnic identity in America actually helps Jewish continuity,” he said. “It makes the culture more empathetic to perpetuation of ethnic group ties.”

In Jewish population studies most, though far from all, American Jews say they are Jewish by religion. And no race/ethnicity category, by itself, can fully reflect the truth of what it means to be Jewish.

“Faced with a census form and the mental images of a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, a black Baptist, a Korean Buddhist or a Hispanic Catholic, white, black, Asian and Sephardi Jews might have some conflicted feelings,” said Rabbi Avi Shafran, a spokesman for Agudath Israel of America, in an email. “While Judaism is a religion, the Jewish people is a people. Peoplehood, at least Jewish peoplehood, transcends ethnicity and race.”

The last time the federal government asked about religion was 1957, said Alan Cooperman, director of religion research at the Pew Research Center, in a population survey rather than decennial census. Subsequently “there was a debate and a number of religious groups and civil liberties groups asked that the census not ask about religion, as a violation of church and state or intrusion on privacy.”

Concepts of race and ethnicity have a complicated, terrible history for Jews, and American Jewish organizations were among those opposed to census questions about religion….

Yet “there was a time when Jews referred to themselves as the Hebrew race,” noted Kelner.

“American Jews want to maintain a distinct identity and on the other hand want to be fully integrated into broader society and don’t want the distinctiveness to come at a price,” Kelner said. “Being marked on the census as Jewish gives you more information. It affirms the difference. Maybe it will have some type of legal consequences and benefits. But on the other hand, it goes against a century-plus of how American Jews have managed that tension.”

 
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  1. “How do you count people who deem themselves Israeli, have Israeli citizenship, did the military, speak Hebrew at home and children who have both parents Israeli?

    You count them as Israeli, not American.

    “Jews have an interest in an America which is more vividly Hispanic, Hindu, Muslim and Middle Eastern…”

    You don’t say.

  2. “American Jews want to maintain a distinct identity and on the other hand want to be fully integrated into broader society and don’t want the distinctiveness to come at a price,”

    How about ‘zelig’?

  3. He wants it, he gets it. I’m getting the Mafia back in business. And I’m not joking.

  4. These people sure are bored.

  5. the ugly ,grubby future fast approaches

  6. Perhaps Jews and Arabs can be all counted under 1 new category, “Semitic Race.” It’ll be fun to see the repercussions.

  7. And on topic

    “How do you count people who deem themselves Israeli, have Israeli citizenship, did the military, speak Hebrew at home and children who have both parents Israeli”

    If American born,I count them as traitors.

    • Replies: @Karl
    >> If American born,I count them as traitors


    Do you advocate the same rule for American-borns who take the Irish dual-citizenship to which they are (by tribal descent) entitled to?

    Do you advocate the same rule for Michelle Bachmann, who took the Swiss dual-citizenship she was entitled to?
  8. Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white? In what context are we thought of as white? For example, if immigration were entirely restricted to Arabs and Indians, would your fellow travelers suddenly stop worrying about whites becoming a minority?

    As to your concern about “flight from white” for benefits, couple of points:
    1) the government and the media already have no trouble at all distinguishing between Asians and underrepresented minorities (URM or NAM, as your readers call them).
    2) I’m pretty sure discrimination or disparate impact can be decided on national origin too, not just race. If Russians were heavily discriminated against or badly underrepresented, I’m fairly sure the government can address it without requiring them to identity as non-white. Same for Arabs.

    This drive to get a MENA category is likely motivated by the same impulse as the drive to get people to use “ze” or whatever – some people are really into the minutiae of asserting identity. I really don’t see why it would affect eligibility for benefits.

    • Replies: @Bliss

    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white?
     
    Indians have never been classified as whites in America. Indians/south asians are far closer in color to african-americans.

    That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn't make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.
    , @gruff
    I don't want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white.

    I want them out of the country.
    , @anon
    I think it's more to do with simply noticing that America is coming apart at the seams.

    No-one in the msm is going to mention it.
    , @AndrewR

    For example, if immigration were entirely restricted to Arabs and Indians, would your fellow travelers suddenly stop worrying about whites becoming a minority?
     
    If said immigrants showed a high propensity to assimilation, many of Steve's "fellow travellers" would certainly worry less about "whites" becoming a minority.

    It would certainly help if said Indian immigrants looked more like Aishwarya Rai or Salman Khan than Bobby Jindal, and if said Arabs looked more like Assad than Sisi.

    My personal perspective is that while Arabs tend to look whiter than Indians, Arabs tend to have a harder time assimilating.

    I imagine most of us wish our immigration system favored persons of Germanic descent, followed by people from formerly communist countries and formerly Catholic countries in Europe. From there I imagine some would prefer Arabs over non-Caucasians and others would prefer East Asians to Arabs. And a vocal minority would go off on unhinged rants rejecting the idea of any "nonwhite" immigration whatsoever and ranting about all the "nonwhites" daring to travel to "white countries."

    Never a dull day around here.
  9. Barring a tiny minority of wealthy indians, primarily from the northwest of the country, no one in India could seriously be considered White.
    Yes, Indians can have some caucasoid facial features, and look more similar to Whites than to Chinese, but that’s akin to classifying Native Americans as East Asians, just because they both have slanted eyes.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Barring a tiny minority of wealthy indians, primarily from the northwest of the country, no one in India could seriously be considered White."

    Even the light skin Indians look distinctly different from Europeans. Light skin Indians look closer to Jordanians and Iranians in phenotype than they do to a generic White American of German, English, and Irish ancestry.

    I have never mistaken a light skin Indian for a WASP. What India considers to be light skin would still be considered dark/swarthy by Europeans standards. Osama Bin Laden would be considered light skin by Indian standards, because you can easily find Indians who are much darker than him.

    , @IBC
    How many people does "tiny minority" translate to in a country of almost 1.3 billion?
  10. she was catcalled by Israeli men and teenagers when she lived in Jerusalem

    Hard to picture any of the Jews I know (elite, deracinated Ashkenazi) doing street catcalls. I also don’t see the black hat orthodox Jews, married at 22 and with 8 kids, doing it. No firsthand experience with this group though.

    Are these catcalling “Israelis” Arab citizens of Israel or what?

    • Replies: @anowow
    You didn't mention Sephardi Jews. I believe they form a large percentage of the Israeli lower class.

    Lower class status + machismo cultural origins = catcalling

    + MENA or Med origins = particularly catcalling blondes.

  11. Jewish peoplehood, transcends ethnicity and race.

    Eh, not really. Don’t feel any ties of ethnic kinship myself with African or Persian Jews, and just a little with the white looking Sephardi in the USA and Western Europe.

    On the other hand, Ashkenazi Jews are all roughly fourth cousins.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Yeah, an all-Ashkenazi country would have been great. Oh well.
  12. @Vinay
    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white? In what context are we thought of as white? For example, if immigration were entirely restricted to Arabs and Indians, would your fellow travelers suddenly stop worrying about whites becoming a minority?

    As to your concern about "flight from white" for benefits, couple of points:
    1) the government and the media already have no trouble at all distinguishing between Asians and underrepresented minorities (URM or NAM, as your readers call them).
    2) I'm pretty sure discrimination or disparate impact can be decided on national origin too, not just race. If Russians were heavily discriminated against or badly underrepresented, I'm fairly sure the government can address it without requiring them to identity as non-white. Same for Arabs.

    This drive to get a MENA category is likely motivated by the same impulse as the drive to get people to use "ze" or whatever - some people are really into the minutiae of asserting identity. I really don't see why it would affect eligibility for benefits.

    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white?

    Indians have never been classified as whites in America. Indians/south asians are far closer in color to african-americans.

    That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn’t make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn’t make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.

     

    I'll accept Mena Suvari as white, though.
    , @Hibernian
    "That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct."

    It highlights the fact that race and color, as in "race, creed, or color," are not the same thing, although obviously they are related.
  13. @Vinay
    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white? In what context are we thought of as white? For example, if immigration were entirely restricted to Arabs and Indians, would your fellow travelers suddenly stop worrying about whites becoming a minority?

    As to your concern about "flight from white" for benefits, couple of points:
    1) the government and the media already have no trouble at all distinguishing between Asians and underrepresented minorities (URM or NAM, as your readers call them).
    2) I'm pretty sure discrimination or disparate impact can be decided on national origin too, not just race. If Russians were heavily discriminated against or badly underrepresented, I'm fairly sure the government can address it without requiring them to identity as non-white. Same for Arabs.

    This drive to get a MENA category is likely motivated by the same impulse as the drive to get people to use "ze" or whatever - some people are really into the minutiae of asserting identity. I really don't see why it would affect eligibility for benefits.

    I don’t want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white.

    I want them out of the country.

  14. @thinkingabout it
    Barring a tiny minority of wealthy indians, primarily from the northwest of the country, no one in India could seriously be considered White.
    Yes, Indians can have some caucasoid facial features, and look more similar to Whites than to Chinese, but that's akin to classifying Native Americans as East Asians, just because they both have slanted eyes.

    “Barring a tiny minority of wealthy indians, primarily from the northwest of the country, no one in India could seriously be considered White.”

    Even the light skin Indians look distinctly different from Europeans. Light skin Indians look closer to Jordanians and Iranians in phenotype than they do to a generic White American of German, English, and Irish ancestry.

    I have never mistaken a light skin Indian for a WASP. What India considers to be light skin would still be considered dark/swarthy by Europeans standards. Osama Bin Laden would be considered light skin by Indian standards, because you can easily find Indians who are much darker than him.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    The only Indians I've ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I'm obviously not referring to northern Europeans.

    It is my understanding that there are still Iranians of primarily Aryan blood, although most Iranians look decidedly non-Aryan after millennia population migrations.
  15. @Lot

    she was catcalled by Israeli men and teenagers when she lived in Jerusalem
     
    Hard to picture any of the Jews I know (elite, deracinated Ashkenazi) doing street catcalls. I also don't see the black hat orthodox Jews, married at 22 and with 8 kids, doing it. No firsthand experience with this group though.

    Are these catcalling "Israelis" Arab citizens of Israel or what?

    You didn’t mention Sephardi Jews. I believe they form a large percentage of the Israeli lower class.

    Lower class status + machismo cultural origins = catcalling

    + MENA or Med origins = particularly catcalling blondes.

  16. Jewish peoplehood, transcends ethnicity and race.

    Eh, not really. Don’t feel any ties of ethnic kinship myself with African or Persian Jews, and just a little with the white looking Sephardi in the USA and Western Europe.

    On the other hand, Ashkenazi Jews are all roughly fourth cousins.

    It may not for you, but it does for Schlomo. Ergo, it does.

    That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.

    No, it doesn’t. All human classifications of humans are social constructs, whupteedoo.

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn’t make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.

    Non-whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whupteedoo.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Non-whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whupteedoo."

    What are Whites mixed with?
  17. “That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.”

    The *boundaries* may be somewhat arbitrary but that doesn’t make the concept itself arbitrary. Color spectrum is the canonical example of arbitrary boundaries not implying artificial concept.

    Frankly, I don’t think MENA were ever considered “whites” in the American social context. It was probably a bureaucratic/political decision that it wasn’t worth the bother to classify them separately. Their re-classification says nothing one way or the other about the shifting boundaries of race.

    • Replies: @Bliss

    The *boundaries* may be somewhat arbitrary but that doesn’t make the concept itself arbitrary.
     
    Whatever concept of race you start out with becomes arbitrary when you begin classifying mixed race people as belonging to one race.
    , @Desiderius

    Their re-classification says nothing one way or the other about the shifting boundaries of race.
     
    Not their location, but about relative grass-greenness in their whereabouts.

    What gets lost is the original goal of getting rid of those boundaries, at least as it relates to American citizenship.
  18. @Lot

    Jewish peoplehood, transcends ethnicity and race.
     
    Eh, not really. Don't feel any ties of ethnic kinship myself with African or Persian Jews, and just a little with the white looking Sephardi in the USA and Western Europe.

    On the other hand, Ashkenazi Jews are all roughly fourth cousins.

    Yeah, an all-Ashkenazi country would have been great. Oh well.

    • Replies: @Joe Walker
    Ashkenazis generally don't like to do physical labor so they would have to import non-Ashkenazi to do it.
  19. Well, Jews are clearly white. The majority of Ashkenazis are blue-eyed and have pale skin. Arabs, especially from the Levant, can be, but quite a few have some Negroid admixture. South Asians are an ancient mixture of Caucasoid and Australoid and generally are not white except perhaps a small minority.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    the majority of Ashkenazi jews have blue eyes?
    , @Joe Walker
    You should come to New York sometime where you will see plenty of Middle Eastern looking Jews. On what evidence - if any - are you basing your claim that the majority of Ashkenazi are blue-eyed?
  20. Yeah, an all-Ashkenazi country would have been great. Oh well.

    The Jews were given an official territory in the 1930’s where Yiddish and Hebrew were spoken but they left for greener pastures (pun intended). The Jewish Autonomous Oblast in eastern Russia.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Yes, but that was in the Soviet Union.
    , @Dicentim
    Hebrew was never spoken in Birobidzhan, nor was it encouraged by the Soviets. Yiddish was the natural language of the Ashkhenazis. Hebrew is an artificial modern language created by the Zionists from Ancient Biblical Hebrew - a language that until then was solely used for liturgical purposes. Hebrew is the language of Israelis.
  21. The *boundaries* may be somewhat arbitrary but that doesn’t make the concept itself arbitrary. Color spectrum is the canonical example of arbitrary boundaries not implying artificial concept.

    Geography works really well, too. When does a river become a creek become a stream become a brook? When does a valley become a mountain? When does a hill become a plain? Etc. It’s a good analogy because people are very familiar with geographical concepts, see them all the time, know their utility absolutely, and will have to sit there and think about the boundaries.

  22. Patels are terrible people. Indians in general are good at hustling their way through the system without any concern for maintaining the system.

    (Indians shouldn’t be classified as white or Asian/Oriental. Obviously, they shouldn’t get any kind of preferences either).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Patels are terrible people. Indians in general are good at hustling their way through the system without any concern for maintaining the system."

    You got that right. From many decades of experience in IT, my take is that Indian immigrants tend to see the United States as nothing more than a "trading entrepôt". They are here to generate contracts for the folks back "home". They might live here and their children grow up here ... but "home" remains India, their religion remains Hindi, and their culture remains Hindi. They assure these connections with periodic pilgrimages back to India, especially when one of their children is getting married (to another Indian of course).

    Hence, contrary to the European immigrants of the 19th and 20th Centuries, the Indian immigrants have a very weak concept of or interest in the common good in this country; they have no interest in assimilation. They are here to find and exploit business opportunities for their families and caste-based clans back in India. For Indians to press to redefine themselves as a "protected minority" in the United States for affirmative action purposes (and government contracts) is just another aspect of their overall business strategy for finding and exploiting business opportunities. I'm sure the Indians privately wince at how stupid Americans are.
  23. “How do you count people who deem themselves Israeli, have Israeli citizenship, did the military, speak Hebrew at home and children who have both parents Israeli?

    Well I’d count them as non-Americans. And I’d consider deporting them. They have a country where there are lots of other people who deem themselves Israeli, have Israeli citizenship, did the military, speak Hebrew at home and children who have both parents Israeli. It’s called Israel. I think they’d be very happy there.

  24. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I’ve dealt with a good number of Arabs and none of them considered themselves ‘white’, that is, European. The term ‘white’ has up until recently been more of a US term with people elsewhere being more specific and naming their ethnicity/country of origin. ME people are not Europeans and that’s clearly understood. There’s a few assimilated long term residents who’ve blended in and are greatly reluctant to divulge their actual national origin but the numbers tend to be small.

  25. Imposition of an official U.S. ethnic/race MENA category amounts to further imposition of Divide et Impera. It appears we are about to have more of what atomizes Americans – officially established identity politics, more of what sharpens domestic antagonisms and hostility, forced on us. Lawyers nationwide are now rubbing their hands, licking their chops.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    Imposition of an official U.S. ethnic/race MENA category amounts to further imposition of Divide et Impera.

    Why would you want Non Europeans counted as "White" in the first place? If MENAs are just as equally White as Europeans than no one here on The Unz should oppose massive Muslim immigration into Europe. After all Egyptian and Yemenite immigrants for example are actually helping make European countries like France Whiter, blonder, and more blue eyed.

  26. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The catcall paragraph in this article jumps out at the reader! What the hell is it doing there, Editor?

    It’s a bizarre psycho sexual racial non sequitur.

    More Jewish paranoia of blonde hair. But hair color alone does not generate catcalls on the street. She was young and gee doyathink maybe she had a great body and wore clothing that showed off her body?

    The article seems to suggest that non-blonde women in Israel don’t get catcalls. Writer Debra Nussbaum Cohen probably is not blonde and does not get catcalls. She probably thinks she would get catcalls if she were blonde. She is wrong.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Perhaps the author is really Erdely writing under a pseudonym?
  27. @Vinay
    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white? In what context are we thought of as white? For example, if immigration were entirely restricted to Arabs and Indians, would your fellow travelers suddenly stop worrying about whites becoming a minority?

    As to your concern about "flight from white" for benefits, couple of points:
    1) the government and the media already have no trouble at all distinguishing between Asians and underrepresented minorities (URM or NAM, as your readers call them).
    2) I'm pretty sure discrimination or disparate impact can be decided on national origin too, not just race. If Russians were heavily discriminated against or badly underrepresented, I'm fairly sure the government can address it without requiring them to identity as non-white. Same for Arabs.

    This drive to get a MENA category is likely motivated by the same impulse as the drive to get people to use "ze" or whatever - some people are really into the minutiae of asserting identity. I really don't see why it would affect eligibility for benefits.

    I think it’s more to do with simply noticing that America is coming apart at the seams.

    No-one in the msm is going to mention it.

  28. @Vinay
    "That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct."

    The *boundaries* may be somewhat arbitrary but that doesn't make the concept itself arbitrary. Color spectrum is the canonical example of arbitrary boundaries not implying artificial concept.

    Frankly, I don't think MENA were ever considered "whites" in the American social context. It was probably a bureaucratic/political decision that it wasn't worth the bother to classify them separately. Their re-classification says nothing one way or the other about the shifting boundaries of race.

    The *boundaries* may be somewhat arbitrary but that doesn’t make the concept itself arbitrary.

    Whatever concept of race you start out with becomes arbitrary when you begin classifying mixed race people as belonging to one race.

  29. The whole catcall thing has been explored by Steve, Roissy and others:

    a. Alphas understand that the girl loves the attention.

    b. Sucka Betas think she’s offended.

    c. Ugly chicks are envious and plot their revenge.

  30. @Anonymous
    The catcall paragraph in this article jumps out at the reader! What the hell is it doing there, Editor?

    It's a bizarre psycho sexual racial non sequitur.

    More Jewish paranoia of blonde hair. But hair color alone does not generate catcalls on the street. She was young and gee doyathink maybe she had a great body and wore clothing that showed off her body?

    The article seems to suggest that non-blonde women in Israel don't get catcalls. Writer Debra Nussbaum Cohen probably is not blonde and does not get catcalls. She probably thinks she would get catcalls if she were blonde. She is wrong.

    Perhaps the author is really Erdely writing under a pseudonym?

  31. First, these “Forward” people are the some of the last who eventually don’t read ISteve – they never heard about that Indian flight from “Caucasian”.

    Secondly, with Jews it’s time and again a question of “I want to keep my pudding and eat it at the same time”: I want to BE different but not to be TREATED AS different by others (which implies a lot of “ambiguity in speaking”, deceit or, perhaps more often, self-deceit).

    Thirdly, “peopleness transcends ethnicity” may be the most idiotic thing I have read this year.

    I wonder how far this segregation can be continued. Will the (gentile) Russians, the Italian or the Irish remain “white”? And in this case, more white than Jews?

  32. She emigrated to Israel alone as a young teenager

    “Young teenager” implies 12-15 years old. They take immigrants in at that age? Or did she have relatives to stay with?

  33. @Bliss

    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white?
     
    Indians have never been classified as whites in America. Indians/south asians are far closer in color to african-americans.

    That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn't make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn’t make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.

    I’ll accept Mena Suvari as white, though.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    How magnanimous of you.
  34. @Svigor


    Jewish peoplehood, transcends ethnicity and race.
     
    Eh, not really. Don’t feel any ties of ethnic kinship myself with African or Persian Jews, and just a little with the white looking Sephardi in the USA and Western Europe.

    On the other hand, Ashkenazi Jews are all roughly fourth cousins.
     

    It may not for you, but it does for Schlomo. Ergo, it does.

    That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.
     
    No, it doesn't. All human classifications of humans are social constructs, whupteedoo.

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn’t make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.
     
    Non-whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whupteedoo.

    “Non-whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whites are a diverse and mixed population. Whupteedoo.”

    What are Whites mixed with?

  35. @Auntie Analogue
    Imposition of an official U.S. ethnic/race MENA category amounts to further imposition of Divide et Impera. It appears we are about to have more of what atomizes Americans - officially established identity politics, more of what sharpens domestic antagonisms and hostility, forced on us. Lawyers nationwide are now rubbing their hands, licking their chops.

    Imposition of an official U.S. ethnic/race MENA category amounts to further imposition of Divide et Impera.

    Why would you want Non Europeans counted as “White” in the first place? If MENAs are just as equally White as Europeans than no one here on The Unz should oppose massive Muslim immigration into Europe. After all Egyptian and Yemenite immigrants for example are actually helping make European countries like France Whiter, blonder, and more blue eyed.

    • Replies: @German Voice of Reason
    1. The point isn't if ethnic group x is white or isn't white, the point is that many more or less ambiguous ethnic groups don't want to be officially considered white because it has negative consequences and no benefits. Thus the state rewards identity politics and punishes assimilation which is harmful socially.

    2. Race isn't a factor in immigration policy, certainly not in a fashion that treats whites preferentially.

    In terms of university admission being considered Asian is even worse, though...

  36. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that, no matter how this shakes out, the FBI will still consider both Arabs and Jews to be white when they commit a crime, but will use their actual ethnicity when they are the victims of a crime.

  37. @Flip
    Well, Jews are clearly white. The majority of Ashkenazis are blue-eyed and have pale skin. Arabs, especially from the Levant, can be, but quite a few have some Negroid admixture. South Asians are an ancient mixture of Caucasoid and Australoid and generally are not white except perhaps a small minority.

    the majority of Ashkenazi jews have blue eyes?

    • Replies: @Flip
    I am Gentile, but I have been around many Jews all my life in school and work, and I would say over half have blue eyes.
  38. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @as
    Patels are terrible people. Indians in general are good at hustling their way through the system without any concern for maintaining the system.

    (Indians shouldn't be classified as white or Asian/Oriental. Obviously, they shouldn't get any kind of preferences either).

    “Patels are terrible people. Indians in general are good at hustling their way through the system without any concern for maintaining the system.”

    You got that right. From many decades of experience in IT, my take is that Indian immigrants tend to see the United States as nothing more than a “trading entrepôt”. They are here to generate contracts for the folks back “home”. They might live here and their children grow up here … but “home” remains India, their religion remains Hindi, and their culture remains Hindi. They assure these connections with periodic pilgrimages back to India, especially when one of their children is getting married (to another Indian of course).

    Hence, contrary to the European immigrants of the 19th and 20th Centuries, the Indian immigrants have a very weak concept of or interest in the common good in this country; they have no interest in assimilation. They are here to find and exploit business opportunities for their families and caste-based clans back in India. For Indians to press to redefine themselves as a “protected minority” in the United States for affirmative action purposes (and government contracts) is just another aspect of their overall business strategy for finding and exploiting business opportunities. I’m sure the Indians privately wince at how stupid Americans are.

    • Replies: @thinkingabout it
    That's what successful minorities do, whether Chinese in south east Asia, Indians in America or Jews in Europe.

    Second generation Indians in America are very assimilated though. They parrot the speaking points of their college masters and are more Yankee than Indian.

    Indians will gradually start assimilating into the culture and seeing their unique identity fade away. Not that I'm looking forward to it, since that usually means the men are left single while the women hook up with all the big bad white boys. Like has already happened with east Asians.
  39. @Vinay
    "That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct."

    The *boundaries* may be somewhat arbitrary but that doesn't make the concept itself arbitrary. Color spectrum is the canonical example of arbitrary boundaries not implying artificial concept.

    Frankly, I don't think MENA were ever considered "whites" in the American social context. It was probably a bureaucratic/political decision that it wasn't worth the bother to classify them separately. Their re-classification says nothing one way or the other about the shifting boundaries of race.

    Their re-classification says nothing one way or the other about the shifting boundaries of race.

    Not their location, but about relative grass-greenness in their whereabouts.

    What gets lost is the original goal of getting rid of those boundaries, at least as it relates to American citizenship.

  40. @kaganovitch
    the majority of Ashkenazi jews have blue eyes?

    I am Gentile, but I have been around many Jews all my life in school and work, and I would say over half have blue eyes.

  41. @Anonymous
    "Patels are terrible people. Indians in general are good at hustling their way through the system without any concern for maintaining the system."

    You got that right. From many decades of experience in IT, my take is that Indian immigrants tend to see the United States as nothing more than a "trading entrepôt". They are here to generate contracts for the folks back "home". They might live here and their children grow up here ... but "home" remains India, their religion remains Hindi, and their culture remains Hindi. They assure these connections with periodic pilgrimages back to India, especially when one of their children is getting married (to another Indian of course).

    Hence, contrary to the European immigrants of the 19th and 20th Centuries, the Indian immigrants have a very weak concept of or interest in the common good in this country; they have no interest in assimilation. They are here to find and exploit business opportunities for their families and caste-based clans back in India. For Indians to press to redefine themselves as a "protected minority" in the United States for affirmative action purposes (and government contracts) is just another aspect of their overall business strategy for finding and exploiting business opportunities. I'm sure the Indians privately wince at how stupid Americans are.

    That’s what successful minorities do, whether Chinese in south east Asia, Indians in America or Jews in Europe.

    Second generation Indians in America are very assimilated though. They parrot the speaking points of their college masters and are more Yankee than Indian.

    Indians will gradually start assimilating into the culture and seeing their unique identity fade away. Not that I’m looking forward to it, since that usually means the men are left single while the women hook up with all the big bad white boys. Like has already happened with east Asians.

  42. Thirdly, “peopleness transcends ethnicity” may be the most idiotic thing I have read this year.

    Only because “people” isn’t the best word for it. “Tribe” is. Tribal affiliations can transcend race, religion, even ethnicity. It basically comes down to who you muster with.

    What are Whites mixed with?

    Whites.

    Why would you want Non Europeans counted as “White” in the first place? If MENAs are just as equally White as Europeans than no one here on The Unz should oppose massive Muslim immigration into Europe. After all Egyptian and Yemenite immigrants for example are actually helping make European countries like France Whiter, blonder, and more blue eyed.

    “Just as white” is a non-sequitur in a lot of contexts. Like, say, French vs. Hungarian. “Just as white” is no reason to soft-genocide either out of existence.

    Something tells me you wouldn’t be okay with Israel’s population being replaced with any given white nationality, even though you seem to consider Jews to be “just as white” as anyone.

  43. Of course, many Jews in Israel seem to have different ideas on the matter:

    The roundup is part of a larger policy to deport all of Israel’s asylum seekers, drafted by Interior Minister Eli Yishai who said earlier this month that Israel is for “the white man.” Speaking to Maariv on June 3, 2012 the minister said: “Muslims that arrive here do not even believe this country belongs to us, to the white man,” continuing that he is prepared to use “all the tools to expel the foreigners, until not one infiltrator remains.”

    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/80-refugees-are-rounded-up-as-israels-interior-minister-declares-this-country-belongs-to-the-white-man

  44. @SFG
    Yeah, an all-Ashkenazi country would have been great. Oh well.

    Ashkenazis generally don’t like to do physical labor so they would have to import non-Ashkenazi to do it.

    • Replies: @Karl
    >> Ashkenazis generally don’t like to do physical labor

    the ashkenazim are a disproportionate fraction of the members of the various special-forces units. And those gibush'im to get in, are no walk in the park.


    >> so they would have to import non-Ashkenazi to do it

    the most-favored physical-labor importees are Thais. Thais almost always eventually go back to their home province. Some of the females catch an Israeli husband. Even they usually visit their parents back in Thailand once or twice a year

    The Eritrean & Somalis & Sudanese are used off the books (well, a very few do get legal work permits, but that generally requires being the parent of a soldier) - but they arrived without an invitation.

    The over-staying filipinas at least were each originally invited. And they work like gangbusters. And they don't generate police blotter entries like the Africans do.
  45. @Flip
    Well, Jews are clearly white. The majority of Ashkenazis are blue-eyed and have pale skin. Arabs, especially from the Levant, can be, but quite a few have some Negroid admixture. South Asians are an ancient mixture of Caucasoid and Australoid and generally are not white except perhaps a small minority.

    You should come to New York sometime where you will see plenty of Middle Eastern looking Jews. On what evidence – if any – are you basing your claim that the majority of Ashkenazi are blue-eyed?

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "You should come to New York sometime where you will see plenty of Middle Eastern looking Jews. On what evidence – if any – are you basing your claim that the majority of Ashkenazi are blue-eyed?"

    According to this, blue eyes are more common among Ashkenazis than they are among Goy Southern European ethnic groups like the Spaniards and the Portuguese. Iberians have a higher percentage of brown eyes than the Ashkenazis.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eye_color&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Blue
  46. Apu Nahasapeemapetilon of Kwik-E-Mart fame chose the pseudonym Apu de Beaumarchais when his band named The Bee Sharps” went public. He was an illegal migrant for a long time…
    Some North Europeans look Mediterranean, some South Europeans look North European, while most look Mediteranean, some don’t look European at all, many MENA look Mediterranean and some don’t look Caucasian at all (in some countries these constitute majorities), some (although few) look North European, some Indians look Mediterranean, most don’t.
    Telly Savalas was Greek, John Lovitz is Ashkhenazi, Zinedine Zidane is Kabyle, Hadj Amin Husseini was Palestinian and Imran Khan is Pakistani. Carleton S. Coon would have had a hard time…
    Racial classification was easy when it came to be, in colonial and XIXth century America, South Africa and other territories where population with no prior historical shared experience came to live together. Status was an important factor in that too. There is a continuum going all the way from Northern Europe all the way to Eastern and Southern India and to the southernmost parts of the Sahara desert. Boundaries cannot be drawn based on phenotype. Religion could be used (The National Socialist regime relied on it as well as on known ancestry also based on religion although it is often assumed that physical anthropology was the method employed- National Socialist Germany classified for purposes unrelated to affirmative action) or self identification but that is all cultural. Race boundaries have worked and may continue to do so between Blacks and others as long as people don’t mix much, other than that it will inevitably fail. If the non-White ethnic groups are classified as such for purposes of discrimination and persecution, they will tend to pass. If the classification is for purposes of gaining advantages, both non-White groups and their self declared members will multiply until all Whites are considered as Native Americans, Eurasian Mongols, Sicilian Moors, Gypsies etc.
    Black and white are colours. Judaism is a religion, so is Islam. Israel is a state, so is the USA. A truly patriotic government should compell its citizens to consider themselves as such first and foremost but that’s me and my utopian vision…

    • Replies: @Karl
    >> A truly patriotic government should compell its citizens to consider themselves as such first and foremost but that’s me and my utopian vision

    governments have powers -not emotions.

    Patriotism is an emotion, and only individuals have emotions.

    You cannot convince a person to love you, and governments can not either.

    You can coerce a wife - or bribe a hooker - into presenting you with the "Girl Friend Experience". And if you're stupid enough, you'll believe the act.
  47. @Anonymous

    Yeah, an all-Ashkenazi country would have been great. Oh well.

     

    The Jews were given an official territory in the 1930's where Yiddish and Hebrew were spoken but they left for greener pastures (pun intended). The Jewish Autonomous Oblast in eastern Russia.

    Yes, but that was in the Soviet Union.

  48. Is there any supporting evidence for this?

    “For example, in the 1970s and early 1980s, Indian immigrant businessman demanded to no longer be considered Caucasian so that they could qualify for minority business development programs like their Oriental rivals were.”

    Because, it was U.S. Supreme Court that classified Indians as non-white ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind ). I don’t think Indians had anything to do with it. There were not enough of them in 1970s to be a political lobby.

  49. @Bliss

    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white?
     
    Indians have never been classified as whites in America. Indians/south asians are far closer in color to african-americans.

    That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn't make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.

    “That MENAs are classified as white caucasians by the US Census highlights how race is to a large extent an arbitrary social construct.”

    It highlights the fact that race and color, as in “race, creed, or color,” are not the same thing, although obviously they are related.

  50. Steve Sailer being familiar with your inherited fear of Muslims and Jewish Daily Forward’s pro-Israel agenda – I’m sure a logical discussion with people like you, is not better than talking to Holy Cow.

    Therefore, I would quote and Israeli rabbi, who said that an increase in Muslim population in Europe would be good for the Jews.

    Rabbi Baruch Efrati, a teacher at Yishva community school in the West Bank, says Jews around the world should be happy at turning Europe into a Muslim majority region.

    “With the help of G-d, the Gentile (non-Jewish) will adopt a healthier life with a lot of modesty and integrity, and not like the hypocritical Christianity which appears pure but is fundamentally corrupt,”said rabbi – reported by Israeli daily YNet News on November 11, 2012.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/01/02/rabbi-islamization-of-europe-is-good-for-jews/

  51. @Anonymous

    Yeah, an all-Ashkenazi country would have been great. Oh well.

     

    The Jews were given an official territory in the 1930's where Yiddish and Hebrew were spoken but they left for greener pastures (pun intended). The Jewish Autonomous Oblast in eastern Russia.

    Hebrew was never spoken in Birobidzhan, nor was it encouraged by the Soviets. Yiddish was the natural language of the Ashkhenazis. Hebrew is an artificial modern language created by the Zionists from Ancient Biblical Hebrew – a language that until then was solely used for liturgical purposes. Hebrew is the language of Israelis.

  52. @Reg Cæsar

    MENA as a non-white racial classification doesn’t make sense either, they are a diverse and mixed population.

     

    I'll accept Mena Suvari as white, though.

    How magnanimous of you.

  53. @Vinay
    Steve, why exactly do you want Indians and Arabs to be classified as white? In what context are we thought of as white? For example, if immigration were entirely restricted to Arabs and Indians, would your fellow travelers suddenly stop worrying about whites becoming a minority?

    As to your concern about "flight from white" for benefits, couple of points:
    1) the government and the media already have no trouble at all distinguishing between Asians and underrepresented minorities (URM or NAM, as your readers call them).
    2) I'm pretty sure discrimination or disparate impact can be decided on national origin too, not just race. If Russians were heavily discriminated against or badly underrepresented, I'm fairly sure the government can address it without requiring them to identity as non-white. Same for Arabs.

    This drive to get a MENA category is likely motivated by the same impulse as the drive to get people to use "ze" or whatever - some people are really into the minutiae of asserting identity. I really don't see why it would affect eligibility for benefits.

    For example, if immigration were entirely restricted to Arabs and Indians, would your fellow travelers suddenly stop worrying about whites becoming a minority?

    If said immigrants showed a high propensity to assimilation, many of Steve’s “fellow travellers” would certainly worry less about “whites” becoming a minority.

    It would certainly help if said Indian immigrants looked more like Aishwarya Rai or Salman Khan than Bobby Jindal, and if said Arabs looked more like Assad than Sisi.

    My personal perspective is that while Arabs tend to look whiter than Indians, Arabs tend to have a harder time assimilating.

    I imagine most of us wish our immigration system favored persons of Germanic descent, followed by people from formerly communist countries and formerly Catholic countries in Europe. From there I imagine some would prefer Arabs over non-Caucasians and others would prefer East Asians to Arabs. And a vocal minority would go off on unhinged rants rejecting the idea of any “nonwhite” immigration whatsoever and ranting about all the “nonwhites” daring to travel to “white countries.”

    Never a dull day around here.

  54. @Jefferson
    "Barring a tiny minority of wealthy indians, primarily from the northwest of the country, no one in India could seriously be considered White."

    Even the light skin Indians look distinctly different from Europeans. Light skin Indians look closer to Jordanians and Iranians in phenotype than they do to a generic White American of German, English, and Irish ancestry.

    I have never mistaken a light skin Indian for a WASP. What India considers to be light skin would still be considered dark/swarthy by Europeans standards. Osama Bin Laden would be considered light skin by Indian standards, because you can easily find Indians who are much darker than him.

    The only Indians I’ve ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I’m obviously not referring to northern Europeans.

    It is my understanding that there are still Iranians of primarily Aryan blood, although most Iranians look decidedly non-Aryan after millennia population migrations.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "The only Indians I’ve ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I’m obviously not referring to northern Europeans."

    Parsis look like MENAs, not Europeans. Freddie Mercury looks a lot closer to Borat in phenotype than he does to blond haired and blue eyed Brock Lesnar.

  55. @Bill Jones
    And on topic

    "How do you count people who deem themselves Israeli, have Israeli citizenship, did the military, speak Hebrew at home and children who have both parents Israeli"

    If American born,I count them as traitors.

    >> If American born,I count them as traitors

    Do you advocate the same rule for American-borns who take the Irish dual-citizenship to which they are (by tribal descent) entitled to?

    Do you advocate the same rule for Michelle Bachmann, who took the Swiss dual-citizenship she was entitled to?

    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    One can only get Irish citizenship by descent if a parent or grandparent has Irish citizenship. That's it for the "tribal descent" you claim.

    Just stick to the topic and don't drag in your anti-Irish animosity to obfuscate the issue at hand.

    , @dfordoom

    Do you advocate the same rule for American-borns who take the Irish dual-citizenship to which they are (by tribal descent) entitled to?
     
    I don't see how anyone can have dual citizenship without being prepared to betray one or other of the countries of which they are citizens.
  56. @Dicentim
    Apu Nahasapeemapetilon of Kwik-E-Mart fame chose the pseudonym Apu de Beaumarchais when his band named The Bee Sharps" went public. He was an illegal migrant for a long time...
    Some North Europeans look Mediterranean, some South Europeans look North European, while most look Mediteranean, some don't look European at all, many MENA look Mediterranean and some don't look Caucasian at all (in some countries these constitute majorities), some (although few) look North European, some Indians look Mediterranean, most don't.
    Telly Savalas was Greek, John Lovitz is Ashkhenazi, Zinedine Zidane is Kabyle, Hadj Amin Husseini was Palestinian and Imran Khan is Pakistani. Carleton S. Coon would have had a hard time...
    Racial classification was easy when it came to be, in colonial and XIXth century America, South Africa and other territories where population with no prior historical shared experience came to live together. Status was an important factor in that too. There is a continuum going all the way from Northern Europe all the way to Eastern and Southern India and to the southernmost parts of the Sahara desert. Boundaries cannot be drawn based on phenotype. Religion could be used (The National Socialist regime relied on it as well as on known ancestry also based on religion although it is often assumed that physical anthropology was the method employed- National Socialist Germany classified for purposes unrelated to affirmative action) or self identification but that is all cultural. Race boundaries have worked and may continue to do so between Blacks and others as long as people don't mix much, other than that it will inevitably fail. If the non-White ethnic groups are classified as such for purposes of discrimination and persecution, they will tend to pass. If the classification is for purposes of gaining advantages, both non-White groups and their self declared members will multiply until all Whites are considered as Native Americans, Eurasian Mongols, Sicilian Moors, Gypsies etc.
    Black and white are colours. Judaism is a religion, so is Islam. Israel is a state, so is the USA. A truly patriotic government should compell its citizens to consider themselves as such first and foremost but that's me and my utopian vision...

    >> A truly patriotic government should compell its citizens to consider themselves as such first and foremost but that’s me and my utopian vision

    governments have powers -not emotions.

    Patriotism is an emotion, and only individuals have emotions.

    You cannot convince a person to love you, and governments can not either.

    You can coerce a wife – or bribe a hooker – into presenting you with the “Girl Friend Experience”. And if you’re stupid enough, you’ll believe the act.

    • Replies: @Dicentim
    Jews seem to have strong feelings for everything Jewish and it seems to work. National Socialists seemed to have a thing for Germany, many committed suicide at the end. WW2 Japanese too. Crusaders appeared quite fond of their religion. Some Jihadis are ready to die for their beliefs. High end GF experiences or perhaps something outside the perception of what Hitler saw as shopkeepers?
  57. @Joe Walker
    Ashkenazis generally don't like to do physical labor so they would have to import non-Ashkenazi to do it.

    >> Ashkenazis generally don’t like to do physical labor

    the ashkenazim are a disproportionate fraction of the members of the various special-forces units. And those gibush’im to get in, are no walk in the park.

    >> so they would have to import non-Ashkenazi to do it

    the most-favored physical-labor importees are Thais. Thais almost always eventually go back to their home province. Some of the females catch an Israeli husband. Even they usually visit their parents back in Thailand once or twice a year

    The Eritrean & Somalis & Sudanese are used off the books (well, a very few do get legal work permits, but that generally requires being the parent of a soldier) – but they arrived without an invitation.

    The over-staying filipinas at least were each originally invited. And they work like gangbusters. And they don’t generate police blotter entries like the Africans do.

  58. >> Hebrew is an artificial modern language created by the Zionists

    Incorrect. When Ben-Eliezer arrived in Jaffa, and then Jerusalem – he found Hebrew was in widespread use. In writing and verbally.

    It was just not, anybody’s mother tongue. Ben-Eliezer was the first (in hundreds of years) to raise a child to speak Hebrew as a mother tongue.

    Now, I’m gonna grab a bull by the horns here, and claim that “Galilean Aramaic” was not really a “different language” than Hebrew. I guess you might think so, if you think that “Russian Orthodox” and “Byzantine Orthodox” are actually two “different” religions.

    Ben-Eliezer added and adopted lots of words, and the rising generation of native Hebrew-speakers did even MORE of that – but not any more than the Anglos took from French or German.

    Perhaps you imagine that “sushi” is not now, an English word? And that it arrived in English, by an “artificial” process?

    • Replies: @Dicentim
    Ok, revived, not artificial.
    Are Aramaic and Hebrew mutually intelligible? (I am not arguing here, just asking)
    Sushi is often not Kosher...
  59. @Karl
    >> If American born,I count them as traitors


    Do you advocate the same rule for American-borns who take the Irish dual-citizenship to which they are (by tribal descent) entitled to?

    Do you advocate the same rule for Michelle Bachmann, who took the Swiss dual-citizenship she was entitled to?

    One can only get Irish citizenship by descent if a parent or grandparent has Irish citizenship. That’s it for the “tribal descent” you claim.

    Just stick to the topic and don’t drag in your anti-Irish animosity to obfuscate the issue at hand.

  60. @Karl
    >> If American born,I count them as traitors


    Do you advocate the same rule for American-borns who take the Irish dual-citizenship to which they are (by tribal descent) entitled to?

    Do you advocate the same rule for Michelle Bachmann, who took the Swiss dual-citizenship she was entitled to?

    Do you advocate the same rule for American-borns who take the Irish dual-citizenship to which they are (by tribal descent) entitled to?

    I don’t see how anyone can have dual citizenship without being prepared to betray one or other of the countries of which they are citizens.

  61. @Karl
    >> A truly patriotic government should compell its citizens to consider themselves as such first and foremost but that’s me and my utopian vision

    governments have powers -not emotions.

    Patriotism is an emotion, and only individuals have emotions.

    You cannot convince a person to love you, and governments can not either.

    You can coerce a wife - or bribe a hooker - into presenting you with the "Girl Friend Experience". And if you're stupid enough, you'll believe the act.

    Jews seem to have strong feelings for everything Jewish and it seems to work. National Socialists seemed to have a thing for Germany, many committed suicide at the end. WW2 Japanese too. Crusaders appeared quite fond of their religion. Some Jihadis are ready to die for their beliefs. High end GF experiences or perhaps something outside the perception of what Hitler saw as shopkeepers?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    what's GF?
  62. @Karl
    >> Hebrew is an artificial modern language created by the Zionists

    Incorrect. When Ben-Eliezer arrived in Jaffa, and then Jerusalem - he found Hebrew was in widespread use. In writing and verbally.

    It was just not, anybody's mother tongue. Ben-Eliezer was the first (in hundreds of years) to raise a child to speak Hebrew as a mother tongue.

    Now, I'm gonna grab a bull by the horns here, and claim that "Galilean Aramaic" was not really a "different language" than Hebrew. I guess you might think so, if you think that "Russian Orthodox" and "Byzantine Orthodox" are actually two "different" religions.

    Ben-Eliezer added and adopted lots of words, and the rising generation of native Hebrew-speakers did even MORE of that - but not any more than the Anglos took from French or German.

    Perhaps you imagine that "sushi" is not now, an English word? And that it arrived in English, by an "artificial" process?

    Ok, revived, not artificial.
    Are Aramaic and Hebrew mutually intelligible? (I am not arguing here, just asking)
    Sushi is often not Kosher…

  63. @AndrewR
    The only Indians I've ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I'm obviously not referring to northern Europeans.

    It is my understanding that there are still Iranians of primarily Aryan blood, although most Iranians look decidedly non-Aryan after millennia population migrations.

    “The only Indians I’ve ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I’m obviously not referring to northern Europeans.”

    Parsis look like MENAs, not Europeans. Freddie Mercury looks a lot closer to Borat in phenotype than he does to blond haired and blue eyed Brock Lesnar.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    The only Indians I’ve ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I’m obviously not referring to northern Europeans.”

    Parsis look like MENAs, not Europeans. Freddie Mercury looks a lot closer to Borat in phenotype than he does to blond haired and blue eyed Brock Lesnar.
     
    I dunno; drop Freddie Mercury or Persis Khambatta somewhere in Southern Europe, and I think that they would blend-in pretty well.

    Ditto for Nikki Hayley.
  64. @Joe Walker
    You should come to New York sometime where you will see plenty of Middle Eastern looking Jews. On what evidence - if any - are you basing your claim that the majority of Ashkenazi are blue-eyed?

    “You should come to New York sometime where you will see plenty of Middle Eastern looking Jews. On what evidence – if any – are you basing your claim that the majority of Ashkenazi are blue-eyed?”

    According to this, blue eyes are more common among Ashkenazis than they are among Goy Southern European ethnic groups like the Spaniards and the Portuguese. Iberians have a higher percentage of brown eyes than the Ashkenazis.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eye_color&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Blue

  65. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Trans-gender.

    Trans-race.

    Trans-age.

    How about Trans-class?

    If you got nothing but say that you are upper-class, then you are upper-class.

    If you got a lot but say that you are lower-class, then you are lower class.

    And one would have to be transclassophobic to deny this.

    So, if billionaire Jews say they got no privilege, we must believe them. And if they say southern hicks living in trailers got all the privilege, that must also be true.

  66. @Dicentim
    Jews seem to have strong feelings for everything Jewish and it seems to work. National Socialists seemed to have a thing for Germany, many committed suicide at the end. WW2 Japanese too. Crusaders appeared quite fond of their religion. Some Jihadis are ready to die for their beliefs. High end GF experiences or perhaps something outside the perception of what Hitler saw as shopkeepers?

    what’s GF?

  67. @thinkingabout it
    Barring a tiny minority of wealthy indians, primarily from the northwest of the country, no one in India could seriously be considered White.
    Yes, Indians can have some caucasoid facial features, and look more similar to Whites than to Chinese, but that's akin to classifying Native Americans as East Asians, just because they both have slanted eyes.

    How many people does “tiny minority” translate to in a country of almost 1.3 billion?

  68. @Jefferson
    Imposition of an official U.S. ethnic/race MENA category amounts to further imposition of Divide et Impera.

    Why would you want Non Europeans counted as "White" in the first place? If MENAs are just as equally White as Europeans than no one here on The Unz should oppose massive Muslim immigration into Europe. After all Egyptian and Yemenite immigrants for example are actually helping make European countries like France Whiter, blonder, and more blue eyed.

    1. The point isn’t if ethnic group x is white or isn’t white, the point is that many more or less ambiguous ethnic groups don’t want to be officially considered white because it has negative consequences and no benefits. Thus the state rewards identity politics and punishes assimilation which is harmful socially.

    2. Race isn’t a factor in immigration policy, certainly not in a fashion that treats whites preferentially.

    In terms of university admission being considered Asian is even worse, though…

  69. The addition of new census categories will be good for the Jews

    I look forward to the day in which we can all say openly and proudly:

    Is this new policy going to be good for The Whites?

    Mind you, I used to never feel this way. Honestly, I really didn’t. Kinda creeps me out saying it. But with becoming a minority looming on the horizon and all and we’re already way behind in getting our fair share of set asides and acknowledgments.

    Minorities are never going to join with us to extirpate identity politics. So, if you can’t beat ’em join ’em!

  70. @Jefferson
    "The only Indians I’ve ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I’m obviously not referring to northern Europeans."

    Parsis look like MENAs, not Europeans. Freddie Mercury looks a lot closer to Borat in phenotype than he does to blond haired and blue eyed Brock Lesnar.

    The only Indians I’ve ever seen that could pass for Europeans are the Parsi, like Freddie Mercury, although I’m obviously not referring to northern Europeans.”

    Parsis look like MENAs, not Europeans. Freddie Mercury looks a lot closer to Borat in phenotype than he does to blond haired and blue eyed Brock Lesnar.

    I dunno; drop Freddie Mercury or Persis Khambatta somewhere in Southern Europe, and I think that they would blend-in pretty well.

    Ditto for Nikki Hayley.

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