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From the New York Times:

Why North Korea Is Angered by ‘Libya Model’ in Nuclear Talks

By Megan Specia and David E. Sanger

May 16, 2018

When North Korea suddenly threw a historic summit meeting with the United States into question on Wednesday, it cited — five times — the fate of another country and another leader, half a world away, as an example of why no one should trust American efforts to disarm another nation.

The country was Libya, and the leader was Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, who made a bad bet that he could swap his nascent nuclear program for economic integration with the West. That deal, executed by the Bush administration nearly 15 years ago, is a footnote to American histories of that era.

But it has always loomed large for the North Koreans. …

What happened in Libya?

In 2003, Colonel Qaddafi saw the American invasion of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam Hussein, and may well have concluded that he was next. In a lengthy, secret set of negotiations with Britain and the United States, he agreed to voluntarily hand over the equipment he had purchased from A.Q. Khan, a leader of the Pakistani nuclear program. North Korea and Iran had also been customers of Dr. Khan, who was later placed under house arrest after his activities were exposed.

The Libya material was flown out of the country, much of it placed at an American weapons laboratory in Oak Ridge, Tenn. When President George W. Bush announced the deal, he made a clear reference to North Korea and Iran when he said, “I hope other leaders will find an example” in Libya’s action.

What happened less than a decade later might be at the heart of what Kim Jong-un appears to fear.

The United States and its European allies began a military action against Libya in 2011 to prevent Colonel Qaddafi’s threatened massacre of civilians. President Obama acceded to arguments from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to join the European-led action.

But no one in the Situation Room debated what message the decision to turn on Colonel Qaddafi might send to other countries that the United States was trying to persuade to relinquish their weapons, according to interviews conducted later with more than a half-dozen people engaged in the discussion.

The Libya intervention allowed anti-government rebels to put Colonel Qaddafi on the run, and months later they pulled him from a ditch and killed him. Since then, Libya has devolved into a dysfunctional state. And North Korea has taken notice.

Thank goodness Hillary was the most qualified-to-be-President person ever, or she might really have screwed the pooched back in 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI

 
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  1. Neocon John Bolton was also one of the cheerleaders for overthrowing/killing Qaddafi back in 2011. Those old articles are still on the internet. E.g:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-on-how-obamas-blunders-in-libya-could-keep-gaddafi-in-power

    or

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-kill-libyan-dictator-muammar-gaddafi

    Bolton had to know that Qaddafi (along with Ceaucescu) is the example that Kim fears most. Is he consciously trying to sabotage Trump on this?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    I would give Bolton a year before he gets his pink slip.
    , @Louis Renault
    Obama was president and his best and brightest just knew how kumbaya was going to result when the European trained elites of Libya were free to run the country after Qaddafi was removed. What Western trained elite is going to run North Korea if Kim is removed?
    , @Pat Boyle
    My fantasy policy for advancing the cause of world peace is to have the United States acquire some little Caribbean islands and then develop them with luxury homes and grounds. We should build these compounds as tropical paradise retirement facilities for ex-dictator's.

    Then if someone like Qaddafi or Charles Taylor needs to be removed from office he would be given a choice - go to your own island and work on your tan or face invasion. The invasion could be as small as some sort of Seal Team Six action or a drone strike.

    The only objection to this approach is that democracies have a problem with rewarding villains. Some benighted SJW would probably oppose such a humane and effective policy because we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to judge others.

    , @Lars Porsena
    Honestly, this from him is enough to really make me wonder whether he is trying to sabotage the deal on Trump, for whatever reason, by broadcasting this. He was going on about how the method used for inspection in Libya is perfectly appropriate for North Korea and just ignoring what happened to Ghaddafi afterward.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    FT editor Lionel Barber says we shouldn't think about that part.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/997219298644058114
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  2. Nathan says:

    It may be a footnote today, but there’s no guaranteeing it will stay a footnote. The Libya intervention may well turn out to be the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st Century.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    No kidding. [Bitterness deleted.]
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    "The Libya intervention may well turn out to be the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st Century."

    On the other hand it had the effect of opening the Med to hundreds of thousands of African illegal infiltrators, previously stopped by Ghadaffi, who were then picked up by NGOs and naval vessels a few miles off the coast and transported hundreds of miles to Europe. I think our elites would see that as a plus.
    , @Mike Carroll
    It was immediately obvious to me that this was a betrayal that would ensure that no one would ever give up their nuclear weapons in the future.

    The people in that room did not care. They knew it too. So why did they still do it?

    It certainly wasn't because they wanted to protect Libyans because they don't care about people at all.

    It was because of another reason or reasons. Top reasons are, 1) Qaddafi was trying to trade oil in something other than the USD, 2) toppling Qaddafi was part of a multi part plan to bring down every government in the middle east that was hostile to Israel such as Syria and Iran.

    The banksters and the MIC are the enemy of all people on the planet. May they rot in hell. They make even Kim Jung Un look good in comparison.

    I hate my leaders with such loathing that if they were to go up in a ball of flames I would dance with joy.
    , @Bill B.
    Yeah. Libya was insanity.

    It was crystal clear that the country would drop into a chaotic hell if you removed the only viable source of authority.

    Iraq was an inevitable neocon disaster but at least there was a plan; there was no plan in Libya.

    How about someone by punished for this? Wouldn't that be useful?

    Voltare on the execution of the British admiral Byng for another failure in the Med 250 years ago"

    Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres
     
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  3. MEH 0910 says:
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  4. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:

    It does feel good to kick the witch. But such duplicity isn’t limited to Libya, or Mrs. Clinton.

    1. Research how Uncle Sam turned on Iraq, shortly after leading Saddam Hussein into believing that he could aggress Kuwait without consequence.

    2. The destruction of Libya was, at the time, orchestrated and condoned by just about everyone in power. Only in the wake of a few deaths of USG “embassy” personnel in Benghazi did anyone care to finger Mrs. Clinton. The Establishment couldn’t care less about what happened to the people of Lybia.

    3. Can Mr. Sailer see any pooches being screwed now?

    As long as people think that voting will change anything, it will continue not to do so.

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    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @CK
    Your example with April Glaspie
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie
    and the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, has a predicate.
    In 1950, the US state dept. issued a list of nations/places that it would go to war over, this was the Strategic Asian Defense Perimeter outlined by S.o.S. Dean Acheson.
    Conspicuously absent from that list was South Korea. The Norks "trusted" the list and got a war.
    , @Louis Renault

    turned on Iraq
     
    Ah, no. Iraq misread the US. However Saddam should have driven on to Riyadh rather than stop. He would have been doing us all a favor if he had.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    As long as people think that voting will change anything, it will continue not to do so.
     
    Right, because current circumstances are exactly as they would have been had Hillary been elected. Nope, voting for Trump was a complete waste of time.
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  5. I think there is no way out for Kim. He’s murdered and imprisoned millions of his countrymen and any weakness on his part will lead to his death.

    I don’t see a policy out either. We could recital him and his closest kin? In Switzerland, but doesn’t seem plausible.

    Our best route might be an internal revolt, but those folks are probably mostly already dead. Or if not dead implicated themselves in the murders and imprisonment.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Ive been corresponding with several folks in the alt right / white nationalist / JW on the JQ crowd and we want to frontlash this situation. 2 narratives to push depending on how the prevailing winds blow.

    A. Kim is innocent. Never killed anyone. Its all Zionist propoganda. North Koreans actually live better lives than the pozzed and Jewed West.

    B. Kim is a monster like his father and grandfather, has orchestrated the killing of millions , and all 3 are crypto Jews.
    , @The Anti-Gnostic

    I think there is no way out for Kim. He’s murdered and imprisoned millions of his countrymen and any weakness on his part will lead to his death.
     
    Wait a minute--he inherited the dictatorship in 2011. The death and imprisonment of hundreds of thousands (a million?) people a year would surely have some observable sequelae: mass, desperate rushes on the Chinese and South Korean borders, net negative demographics, zombie-alcoholic/drug addict populace, etc. North Korean society does not seem to be at that level of totalitarian dysfunction. Of course, when you're a socialist dictatorship, it helps that your subjects are conformist East Asians.

    I'm not saying North Korea is a good place. It's surely an awful place unless you have a government sinecure, but it's probably improving relative to life under the two previous Kims.

    I suspect the Chinese have told Kim Jong Un that it's time to live in the real world instead of his father's and grandfather's juche socialist fantasy-hermit kingdom. The Chinese have no interest in NK provoking Japan and starting a bloody, inter-ethnic Korean war (with US involvement) on their front porch.

    There were a number of high-profile killings early after Kim's succession. Was he actually purging old-guard Stalinists? Who knows.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    or Trump can "Michael Corleone" Kim in Singapore...

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ppjyB2MpxBU

    Do you think Trump would fix his hair before leaving the bathroom?
    , @Thirdeye
    Blathering from invented "facts" based on a priori notions about the DPRK leadership won't get you very far. Political changes within the DPRK are likely to be low profile, with face-saving measures to smooth the process. Kim has shown some different notions of leadership than those of his predecessors, relinquishing the God-King personna to become a relatively down-to-earth "people's leader," making public appearances with his wife at amusement parks and such. It seems to be a generational change. The first in line for succession in the Kim Dynasty ahead of Jong-Un wasn't interested in the top job.
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  6. Aardvark says:

    So we get upset that the leader of some ME country threatens to kill some of its population, so we go in and bomb that country in to submission and force an overthrow… or foment a coup that results in mayhem and lots of people dying as well. I can sharply see the difference.

    Qaddafi was like a Christmas present to Suaron. Q’s first mistake was the proposal of a gold based currency, the Rothschilds could never allow this. He also made it clear he was keeping a lid on emigration out of Africa to Europe. So, eliminate Qaddafi and it stops the realization of gold currency and opens the hatch for mass emigration to the EU. Win/Win in the eyes of the elite…this was no policy blunder. That’s why Hildabeast had to hide her emails on a private server so it would be much easier to destroy the record of communication about this.

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    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
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  7. Nuking up was one of the smartest moves Kim could make, precisely for the reason shown by the example of Libya.

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  8. ic1000 says:

    > But no one in the Situation Room debated what message the decision to turn on Colonel Qaddafi might send to other countries…

    NYT authors Megan Specia and David E. Sanger could have ripped this sentence from the pages of Foreign Affairs, the monthly magazine that defines and defends Washington/Brussels conventional wisdom.

    After reading the past few issues, I’ve concluded that, yeah, they really are able to think like this.

    A crucial point that was immediately obvious to most of this blog’s readership, in real time.

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    • Agree: Almost Missouri
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  9. AndrewR says:

    I’m not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it’s worth remembering that he publicly said “those who do not love me do not deserve to live.” I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    All rulers think like that. Mercy and benevolence are virtues of those secure in their power and the people in charge are never secure in their power.
    , @BB753
    He did have a point, though!
    , @Anonymous

    I’m not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it’s worth remembering that he publicly said “those who do not love me do not deserve to live.” I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.
     
    “It is not enough merely to win; others must lose.” ― Gore Vidal

    “Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little.” ― Gore Vidal

    https://youtu.be/nYymnxoQnf8
    , @Jake
    If we are going to kill every public figure who utters narcissistic statements, we should start with all of Hollywood and proceed to every major US politician and journalist and Ivy League/Chicago/Stanford professor, and at least half the Jews who have accomplished anything above a salary of 100K.
    , @Ed
    I don’t think anyone is suggesting Qaddafi was a good guy but intervening in sovereign countries comes with risks. The outcomes are hardly ever good and the world is watching.

    It’s in North Korea’s interest or its leaders to be nuclear armed. It guarantees that their removal will be internal if it ever comes. It keeps them a player as well. Seems like the North Koreans will probably seek to remain nuclear armed but cease missile testing. If the workd can live with a nuclear Pakistan it can live with a nuclear North Korea.
    , @Lugash
    Narcissism was the least of Q's flaws. He was a deranged, murderous piece of shit.

    Q and his flaws were vastly preferable to what came out of the power vacuum that the West created in Libya.

    But it appears that Q had to be removed because he threatened to expose Sarkozy's crimes, and the Obama admin was gullible enough to fall for it.

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  10. @Peter Akuleyev
    Neocon John Bolton was also one of the cheerleaders for overthrowing/killing Qaddafi back in 2011. Those old articles are still on the internet. E.g:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-on-how-obamas-blunders-in-libya-could-keep-gaddafi-in-power

    or

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-kill-libyan-dictator-muammar-gaddafi

    Bolton had to know that Qaddafi (along with Ceaucescu) is the example that Kim fears most. Is he consciously trying to sabotage Trump on this?

    I would give Bolton a year before he gets his pink slip.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    Trump should fire him now before he screws up the Korean deal.
    , @Mr. Anon

    I would give Bolton a year before he gets his pink slip.
     
    Why was he hired at all? He stands for just about everything that Trump, the candidate, ran against. The fact that he is in that job suggests that the President doesn't necessarily have a lot of say in whom he staffs his government with.

    I believe that Trump's election came as a real shock to the establishment. But they didn't stay shocked for long. They quickly acted to co-opt him and turn him to their own advantage. Given that Trump has a deep vein of narcissism that proved not to difficult to do.
    , @Grumbler
    Bolton should not be given a pink slip. He himself should be "Gaddafied". Justice demands it.
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  11. Pericles says:
    @Nathan
    It may be a footnote today, but there's no guaranteeing it will stay a footnote. The Libya intervention may well turn out to be the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st Century.

    No kidding. [Bitterness deleted.]

    Read More
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  12. Logan says:

    It’s morally repugnant to let mass murdering dictators fade quietly away into luxurious retirement.

    But if the alternative to clinging to power is brutal death, clearly they have a lot less incentive to retire. Which we obviously want to encourage.

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  13. Bryan says:

    The Libyan model, yeah, but without the part where the dictator gets sodomized with a bayonet, guys. That’s what I meant, ok?

    ~ John Bolton

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  14. anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:

    It wouldn’t be surprising if the de-nuke move gets sabotaged either by Washington’s tone-deafness or by Kim’s own military. They’d be giving up their deterrent for what, exactly? The US has shown that it reneges on it’s agreements, most recently with Iran. Obama was photographed with Ghaddafi which probably gave the doomed leader a feeling that he had gained acceptance and respect. Little did he know he was being marked for death. Weakness invites attack and Kim must know this.

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  15. anonymous[739] • Disclaimer says:

    The losers in the Middle East always look so much better to me than what comes afterwards.

    I liked the Shah of Iran and Iran in the 1970s seemed to be a stable place, lots of attractive Persian women wearing tasteful Parisian fashions. Then there was the Iranian Revolution, Shah disposed, mob Islamic terror – streets packed with dark, hairy, hateful people, US Embassy stormed, America held hostage then 40 years of Shiite Iranian theocracy. How can any honest Western person not say – “Hey life was much better for them/us under the Shah”.

    My idiot PC lib Left classmates then put some spin that things went down because we the USA deposed a Democratic left government by the CIA “We made em go for 8th century Islam”.

    I am 100% confident in saying Iraq was better under Saddam and the Baathists then what followed:

    Anarchy, sectarian slaughter ISIS coming to power complete with open, daylight child sex slave auctions.

    Yeah, Libya under Qadaffi was much better than what came after, anarchy, collapse of economy, Libya becomes mass smuggling base for tens of millions of diseased Black African savages invading Europe.

    And the Neo Con Zionists are still going strong looking for regime change in Syria, looking do do on to Syria what was done to Iraq, Libya or even Iran.

    Nah.

    I always support Middle Eastern Leaders/movements that have good looking, clean shaven leaders with wives who are well dressed and yeah, look kind of White. Mr. and Mrs. Assad in Syria are a handsome couple – they use soap, toilet paper, all things ISIS and the Taliban or the homeless here in Chicago don’t.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    We don’t have to support the Pahlavis, Husseins, Qaddafis, and Assads. Nor do we have to overthrow and kill them. There’s a huge middle ground.
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  16. @AndrewR
    I'm not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it's worth remembering that he publicly said "those who do not love me do not deserve to live." I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    All rulers think like that. Mercy and benevolence are virtues of those secure in their power and the people in charge are never secure in their power.

    Read More
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  17. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:

    O/T

    Without ever greater globalism, and making YT a minority in his own countries, the lawns and the meat will rot.

    Immigrants make up about 17 percent of the U.S. labor force, with about one-quarter of those undocumented. Without the current rate of both legal and undocumented immigration, the total U.S. workforce would shrink dramatically over the next 20 years, according to a 2017 study by the Pew Research Center.

    We could abolish feminism and never have to worry about fertility again. But yet we don’t… almost like we are following Kalerigi’s plan…

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2018/05/17/even-trump-tightens-immigration-us-labor-shortage-becoming-crisis

    No employer is also mentioned to have raised compensation, only Krikorian mentions it, funny that…

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  18. This same thing occurred to me when I saw John Bolton on TV going on about how he wants us to do the same thing to North Korea that we did to Libya. If I were Little Kim Rocket Man, I would shut the damn door and hide in my bunker.

    Aren’t you glad Donny hired good 0l’ John Bolton? Never has a walrus mustache been so repulsive.

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  19. Coemgen says:

    Doesn’t the Kim Regime’s reign-of-terror only exist to provide justification for a large western (U.S.) army to be placed in Asia?

    Who benefits from that army and who is powerful enough to support Kim’s government? Globalist/NWO types perhaps?

    Assuming “Globalists” had been propping up the Kim Regime and are not now, Kim will fold.

    Will the rehabilitation of NK provide the same economic benefits to those of the HRC/Blumenthal ilk as they expected the rebuilding of Libya to yield? If not, there isn’t a strong motivation to “Khaddafi” Kim. Anyhow, Fakebook Facebook now has controls to prevent violent dialogue that could lead to another “astroturfed grassroots Facebook Revolution.”

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  20. BB753 says:
    @AndrewR
    I'm not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it's worth remembering that he publicly said "those who do not love me do not deserve to live." I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    He did have a point, though!

    Read More
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  21. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR
    I'm not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it's worth remembering that he publicly said "those who do not love me do not deserve to live." I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    I’m not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it’s worth remembering that he publicly said “those who do not love me do not deserve to live.” I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    “It is not enough merely to win; others must lose.” ― Gore Vidal

    “Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little.” ― Gore Vidal

    Read More
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  22. CK says:
    @anonymous
    It does feel good to kick the witch. But such duplicity isn't limited to Libya, or Mrs. Clinton.

    1. Research how Uncle Sam turned on Iraq, shortly after leading Saddam Hussein into believing that he could aggress Kuwait without consequence.

    2. The destruction of Libya was, at the time, orchestrated and condoned by just about everyone in power. Only in the wake of a few deaths of USG "embassy" personnel in Benghazi did anyone care to finger Mrs. Clinton. The Establishment couldn't care less about what happened to the people of Lybia.

    3. Can Mr. Sailer see any pooches being screwed now?

    As long as people think that voting will change anything, it will continue not to do so.

    Your example with April Glaspie

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie

    and the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, has a predicate.
    In 1950, the US state dept. issued a list of nations/places that it would go to war over, this was the Strategic Asian Defense Perimeter outlined by S.o.S. Dean Acheson.
    Conspicuously absent from that list was South Korea. The Norks “trusted” the list and got a war.

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  23. @Nathan
    It may be a footnote today, but there's no guaranteeing it will stay a footnote. The Libya intervention may well turn out to be the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st Century.

    “The Libya intervention may well turn out to be the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st Century.”

    On the other hand it had the effect of opening the Med to hundreds of thousands of African illegal infiltrators, previously stopped by Ghadaffi, who were then picked up by NGOs and naval vessels a few miles off the coast and transported hundreds of miles to Europe. I think our elites would see that as a plus.

    Read More
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  24. Jake says:

    The most important lesson to take away from this little incident is to never trust the WASP Elite.

    Lord Palmerston is erroneously credited with originating the assertions: We (English) have no permanent allies, and we have no perpetual enemies, only interests that are eternal and perpetual. When that speech (I think regarding Poland, the part ruled by Russia, which many English found horrible to consider) was made, it was reported as Palmerston concluding with a well known assertion. Palmerston did not originate that notion; it was well known. It is the perfect expression of WASP foreign policy across centuries and continents, and it means that nobody should risk trusting any nation that is based on WASP culture and/or ruled by people who are culturally WASP.

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    • Replies: @Silva
    1683: Poland-Lithuania saves Austria, maybe the West.
    1772, 1795: Austria takes part in the First and Third (final) Partitions of Poland-Lithuania.
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  25. @Peter Akuleyev
    Neocon John Bolton was also one of the cheerleaders for overthrowing/killing Qaddafi back in 2011. Those old articles are still on the internet. E.g:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-on-how-obamas-blunders-in-libya-could-keep-gaddafi-in-power

    or

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-kill-libyan-dictator-muammar-gaddafi

    Bolton had to know that Qaddafi (along with Ceaucescu) is the example that Kim fears most. Is he consciously trying to sabotage Trump on this?

    Obama was president and his best and brightest just knew how kumbaya was going to result when the European trained elites of Libya were free to run the country after Qaddafi was removed. What Western trained elite is going to run North Korea if Kim is removed?

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    • Replies: @Fredrik
    They obviously expect Seoul to take over. Which isn't strange at all.

    Btw,
    not only is Qadaffi a good example. The Spanish treatment of Augusto Pinochet is another.

    The million dollar question around these talks is how to assure Kim and his henchmen that they will be amnestied after leaving power. Good luck all negotiators because you'll need it.
    , @MBlanc46
    The same people who are backing the regime now: The Chinese.
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  26. Jake says:
    @AndrewR
    I'm not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it's worth remembering that he publicly said "those who do not love me do not deserve to live." I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    If we are going to kill every public figure who utters narcissistic statements, we should start with all of Hollywood and proceed to every major US politician and journalist and Ivy League/Chicago/Stanford professor, and at least half the Jews who have accomplished anything above a salary of 100K.

    Read More
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  27. @anonymous
    It does feel good to kick the witch. But such duplicity isn't limited to Libya, or Mrs. Clinton.

    1. Research how Uncle Sam turned on Iraq, shortly after leading Saddam Hussein into believing that he could aggress Kuwait without consequence.

    2. The destruction of Libya was, at the time, orchestrated and condoned by just about everyone in power. Only in the wake of a few deaths of USG "embassy" personnel in Benghazi did anyone care to finger Mrs. Clinton. The Establishment couldn't care less about what happened to the people of Lybia.

    3. Can Mr. Sailer see any pooches being screwed now?

    As long as people think that voting will change anything, it will continue not to do so.

    turned on Iraq

    Ah, no. Iraq misread the US. However Saddam should have driven on to Riyadh rather than stop. He would have been doing us all a favor if he had.

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  28. Pat Boyle says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Neocon John Bolton was also one of the cheerleaders for overthrowing/killing Qaddafi back in 2011. Those old articles are still on the internet. E.g:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-on-how-obamas-blunders-in-libya-could-keep-gaddafi-in-power

    or

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-kill-libyan-dictator-muammar-gaddafi

    Bolton had to know that Qaddafi (along with Ceaucescu) is the example that Kim fears most. Is he consciously trying to sabotage Trump on this?

    My fantasy policy for advancing the cause of world peace is to have the United States acquire some little Caribbean islands and then develop them with luxury homes and grounds. We should build these compounds as tropical paradise retirement facilities for ex-dictator’s.

    Then if someone like Qaddafi or Charles Taylor needs to be removed from office he would be given a choice – go to your own island and work on your tan or face invasion. The invasion could be as small as some sort of Seal Team Six action or a drone strike.

    The only objection to this approach is that democracies have a problem with rewarding villains. Some benighted SJW would probably oppose such a humane and effective policy because we shouldn’t be so presumptuous as to judge others.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    About the time that the revolt against Ghaddafi started and casualties began to mount in Libya a Tunesian academic proposed something like this. It got around five minutes in the media and was forgotten.

    Sometimes a brief dictatorship and loose interpretation of human rights laws may be necessary. The problem is, those who carry these measures out are riding a tiger and then cannot afford to loosen up. Most revolutions occur when dictatorships loosen up, not when they are at their harshest.
    , @BenKenobi
    "It's a good thing there are so many islands in the world. What would we do without them? Put you all into the lethal chamber, I suppose."
    - Mustapha Mond, Brave New World
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    Or maybe Russia or China could offer to hole up Kim Jong-un in a villa in Crimea or Hainan Island.
    , @hyperbola
    Perhaps the UN could acquire some islands for treasonous war criminals like Killary; Obama and McCain.

    John McCain: Founding Father of the Terrorist Emirate of Benghazi
    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/john-mccain-founding-father-of.html

    US-Backed Terrorists Murder US' Own Ambassador in Libya
    Murdered US Ambassador exposes US "pro-democracy" foreign policy - same terrorists US backs in Syria are behind the murder of US Ambassador in Libya.
    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2012/09/us-backed-terrorists-murder-us-own.html

    John McCain: A Closer Look at Evil (Part 2)
    http://www.salem-news.com/articles/july282010/evil-mccain-2-jg.php
    The political genealogy of Arizona Senator John McCain is firmly rooted in jewish organized crime. .....

    Perhaps the US could begin to turn over its war criminals to the international courts.

    Hillary Clinton: Destroy Syria for Israel: « The Best Way to Help Israel »
    https://www.mondialisation.ca/hillary-clinton-destroy-syria-for-israel-the-best-way-to-help-israel/5515741

    The World Will Not Mourn the Decline of U.S. Hegemony
    https://consortiumnews.com/2018/05/14/the-world-will-not-mourn-the-decline-of-u-s-hegemony/
    ... From the start, the “American Century” had nothing to do with advancing democracy. As numerous key U.S. planning documents reveal over and over, the goal of that policy was to maintain and, if necessary, install governments that “favor[ed] private investment of domestic and foreign capital, production for export, and the right to bring profits out of the country,” according to Noam Chomsky. Given the United States’ remarkable possession of half the world’s capital after World War II, Washington elites had no doubt that U.S. investors and corporations would profit the most. Internally, the basic selfish national and imperial objectives were openly and candidly discussed. As the “liberal” and “dovish” imperialist, top State Department planner, and key Cold War architect George F. Kennan explained in “Policy Planning Study 23,” a critical 1948 document:...

    ..... “We lead the world,” presidential candidate Obama explained, “in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. … America is the last, best hope of earth.” Obama elaborated in his first inaugural address. “Our security,” the president said, “emanates from the justness of our cause; the force of our example; the tempering qualities of humility and restraint”—a fascinating commentary on Fallujah, Hiroshima, the U.S. crucifixion of Southeast Asia, the “Highway of Death” and more.

    Within less than half a year of his inauguration and his lauded Cairo speech, Obama’s rapidly accumulating record of atrocities in the Muslim world would include.... Obama was only warming up his “killer” powers. He would join with France and other NATO powers in the imperial decimation of Libya, which killed more than 25,000 civilians and unleashed mass carnage in North Africa. The U.S.-led assault on Libya was a disaster for black Africans and sparked the biggest refugee crisis since World War II. Two years before the war on Libya, the Obama administration helped install a murderous right-wing coup regime in Honduras. Thousands of civilians and activists have been murdered by that regime.....
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  29. Anon[368] • Disclaimer says:
    @Robert Hume
    I think there is no way out for Kim. He’s murdered and imprisoned millions of his countrymen and any weakness on his part will lead to his death.

    I don’t see a policy out either. We could recital him and his closest kin? In Switzerland, but doesn’t seem plausible.

    Our best route might be an internal revolt, but those folks are probably mostly already dead. Or if not dead implicated themselves in the murders and imprisonment.

    Ive been corresponding with several folks in the alt right / white nationalist / JW on the JQ crowd and we want to frontlash this situation. 2 narratives to push depending on how the prevailing winds blow.

    A. Kim is innocent. Never killed anyone. Its all Zionist propoganda. North Koreans actually live better lives than the pozzed and Jewed West.

    B. Kim is a monster like his father and grandfather, has orchestrated the killing of millions , and all 3 are crypto Jews.

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  30. Ed says:
    @AndrewR
    I'm not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it's worth remembering that he publicly said "those who do not love me do not deserve to live." I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    I don’t think anyone is suggesting Qaddafi was a good guy but intervening in sovereign countries comes with risks. The outcomes are hardly ever good and the world is watching.

    It’s in North Korea’s interest or its leaders to be nuclear armed. It guarantees that their removal will be internal if it ever comes. It keeps them a player as well. Seems like the North Koreans will probably seek to remain nuclear armed but cease missile testing. If the workd can live with a nuclear Pakistan it can live with a nuclear North Korea.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    And the US intervenes with impunity--and Libya wasn't the first time either, nor obviously will it be the last. But woe betide anyone who interferes in "our" affairs. What goes around, comes around.
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  31. Stick says:

    The big difference between the Libya model and the Korean one is that Korea has a South Korean mediator to broker the transition. They have money and a real desire to reunify without massive bloodshed. If Whoa Fat is worried about his and his retainer’s skin, then it is the South Koreans that can and should provide assurances and viable escapes for him and his henchmen. Then there is China offering a soft exile if the worst occurs. Don’t know if Whoa Fat will like these options but they are considerably better than what was offered to Kaddafi. It is on South Korea to make this work.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    South Korea needs to establish more independent agency if they wish for more influence over North Korea. Getting their armed forces out from under US command would be a good first step. They then could provide ending the US presence in their country as an incentive for a change in North Korea's posture. China and South Korea have organic interests in North Korea. The US doesn't.
    , @ThirdWorldSteveReader
    I think the fact that the mediator might be their 55 years foe makes them even more paranoid about the whole deal.
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  32. Lugash says:
    @AndrewR
    I'm not here to defend the NATO intervention in Libya, but before anyone starts sympathizing with Gaddafi, it's worth remembering that he publicly said "those who do not love me do not deserve to live." I doubt a more narcissistic phrase has ever been uttered.

    Narcissism was the least of Q’s flaws. He was a deranged, murderous piece of shit.

    Q and his flaws were vastly preferable to what came out of the power vacuum that the West created in Libya.

    But it appears that Q had to be removed because he threatened to expose Sarkozy’s crimes, and the Obama admin was gullible enough to fall for it.

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  33. @Robert Hume
    I think there is no way out for Kim. He’s murdered and imprisoned millions of his countrymen and any weakness on his part will lead to his death.

    I don’t see a policy out either. We could recital him and his closest kin? In Switzerland, but doesn’t seem plausible.

    Our best route might be an internal revolt, but those folks are probably mostly already dead. Or if not dead implicated themselves in the murders and imprisonment.

    I think there is no way out for Kim. He’s murdered and imprisoned millions of his countrymen and any weakness on his part will lead to his death.

    Wait a minute–he inherited the dictatorship in 2011. The death and imprisonment of hundreds of thousands (a million?) people a year would surely have some observable sequelae: mass, desperate rushes on the Chinese and South Korean borders, net negative demographics, zombie-alcoholic/drug addict populace, etc. North Korean society does not seem to be at that level of totalitarian dysfunction. Of course, when you’re a socialist dictatorship, it helps that your subjects are conformist East Asians.

    I’m not saying North Korea is a good place. It’s surely an awful place unless you have a government sinecure, but it’s probably improving relative to life under the two previous Kims.

    I suspect the Chinese have told Kim Jong Un that it’s time to live in the real world instead of his father’s and grandfather’s juche socialist fantasy-hermit kingdom. The Chinese have no interest in NK provoking Japan and starting a bloody, inter-ethnic Korean war (with US involvement) on their front porch.

    There were a number of high-profile killings early after Kim’s succession. Was he actually purging old-guard Stalinists? Who knows.

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  34. AKAHorace says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    I would give Bolton a year before he gets his pink slip.

    Trump should fire him now before he screws up the Korean deal.

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  35. AKAHorace says:
    @Pat Boyle
    My fantasy policy for advancing the cause of world peace is to have the United States acquire some little Caribbean islands and then develop them with luxury homes and grounds. We should build these compounds as tropical paradise retirement facilities for ex-dictator's.

    Then if someone like Qaddafi or Charles Taylor needs to be removed from office he would be given a choice - go to your own island and work on your tan or face invasion. The invasion could be as small as some sort of Seal Team Six action or a drone strike.

    The only objection to this approach is that democracies have a problem with rewarding villains. Some benighted SJW would probably oppose such a humane and effective policy because we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to judge others.

    About the time that the revolt against Ghaddafi started and casualties began to mount in Libya a Tunesian academic proposed something like this. It got around five minutes in the media and was forgotten.

    Sometimes a brief dictatorship and loose interpretation of human rights laws may be necessary. The problem is, those who carry these measures out are riding a tiger and then cannot afford to loosen up. Most revolutions occur when dictatorships loosen up, not when they are at their harshest.

    Read More
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  36. AKAHorace says:

    My fantasy policy for advancing the cause of world peace is to have the United States acquire some little Caribbean islands and then develop them with luxury homes and grounds. We should build these compounds as tropical paradise retirement facilities for ex-dictator’s.

    About the time that the revolt against Ghaddafi started and casualties began to mount in Libya a Tunesian academic proposed something like this. It got around five minutes in the media and was forgotten.

    Sometimes a brief dictatorship and loose interpretation of human rights laws may be necessary. The problem is, those who carry these measures out are riding a tiger and then cannot afford to loosen up. Most revolutions occur when dictatorships loosen up, not when they are at their harshest.

    It is also in the West’s interest to be seen as honest brokers and keep our word with everyone.

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  37. anonymous[629] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ed
    I don’t think anyone is suggesting Qaddafi was a good guy but intervening in sovereign countries comes with risks. The outcomes are hardly ever good and the world is watching.

    It’s in North Korea’s interest or its leaders to be nuclear armed. It guarantees that their removal will be internal if it ever comes. It keeps them a player as well. Seems like the North Koreans will probably seek to remain nuclear armed but cease missile testing. If the workd can live with a nuclear Pakistan it can live with a nuclear North Korea.

    And the US intervenes with impunity–and Libya wasn’t the first time either, nor obviously will it be the last. But woe betide anyone who interferes in “our” affairs. What goes around, comes around.

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  38. Mr. Anon says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    I would give Bolton a year before he gets his pink slip.

    I would give Bolton a year before he gets his pink slip.

    Why was he hired at all? He stands for just about everything that Trump, the candidate, ran against. The fact that he is in that job suggests that the President doesn’t necessarily have a lot of say in whom he staffs his government with.

    I believe that Trump’s election came as a real shock to the establishment. But they didn’t stay shocked for long. They quickly acted to co-opt him and turn him to their own advantage. Given that Trump has a deep vein of narcissism that proved not to difficult to do.

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  39. bjondo says:

    Gadthdthfi among the best 8 national leaders, elected or not, of the last 200 years.

    He helped his country, his fellow citizens, his continent.

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  40. BenKenobi says:
    @Pat Boyle
    My fantasy policy for advancing the cause of world peace is to have the United States acquire some little Caribbean islands and then develop them with luxury homes and grounds. We should build these compounds as tropical paradise retirement facilities for ex-dictator's.

    Then if someone like Qaddafi or Charles Taylor needs to be removed from office he would be given a choice - go to your own island and work on your tan or face invasion. The invasion could be as small as some sort of Seal Team Six action or a drone strike.

    The only objection to this approach is that democracies have a problem with rewarding villains. Some benighted SJW would probably oppose such a humane and effective policy because we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to judge others.

    “It’s a good thing there are so many islands in the world. What would we do without them? Put you all into the lethal chamber, I suppose.”
    - Mustapha Mond, Brave New World

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  41. @Pat Boyle
    My fantasy policy for advancing the cause of world peace is to have the United States acquire some little Caribbean islands and then develop them with luxury homes and grounds. We should build these compounds as tropical paradise retirement facilities for ex-dictator's.

    Then if someone like Qaddafi or Charles Taylor needs to be removed from office he would be given a choice - go to your own island and work on your tan or face invasion. The invasion could be as small as some sort of Seal Team Six action or a drone strike.

    The only objection to this approach is that democracies have a problem with rewarding villains. Some benighted SJW would probably oppose such a humane and effective policy because we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to judge others.

    Or maybe Russia or China could offer to hole up Kim Jong-un in a villa in Crimea or Hainan Island.

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  42. @Robert Hume
    I think there is no way out for Kim. He’s murdered and imprisoned millions of his countrymen and any weakness on his part will lead to his death.

    I don’t see a policy out either. We could recital him and his closest kin? In Switzerland, but doesn’t seem plausible.

    Our best route might be an internal revolt, but those folks are probably mostly already dead. Or if not dead implicated themselves in the murders and imprisonment.

    or Trump can “Michael Corleone” Kim in Singapore…

    Do you think Trump would fix his hair before leaving the bathroom?

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  43. I don’t think Kim has anything to worry about, as he…

    (1) isn’t preventing death of Europe from mass African immigration…

    (2) hasn’t donated millions of dollars to Sarkozy…

    (3) doesn’t do our dirty work…

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/05/what-moral-standing-do-we-have-after-this-outrage-and-are-we-about-to-join-another-idiotic-war-like-.html

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  44. Fredrik says:
    @Louis Renault
    Obama was president and his best and brightest just knew how kumbaya was going to result when the European trained elites of Libya were free to run the country after Qaddafi was removed. What Western trained elite is going to run North Korea if Kim is removed?

    They obviously expect Seoul to take over. Which isn’t strange at all.

    Btw,
    not only is Qadaffi a good example. The Spanish treatment of Augusto Pinochet is another.

    The million dollar question around these talks is how to assure Kim and his henchmen that they will be amnestied after leaving power. Good luck all negotiators because you’ll need it.

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  45. Silva says:
    @Jake
    The most important lesson to take away from this little incident is to never trust the WASP Elite.

    Lord Palmerston is erroneously credited with originating the assertions: We (English) have no permanent allies, and we have no perpetual enemies, only interests that are eternal and perpetual. When that speech (I think regarding Poland, the part ruled by Russia, which many English found horrible to consider) was made, it was reported as Palmerston concluding with a well known assertion. Palmerston did not originate that notion; it was well known. It is the perfect expression of WASP foreign policy across centuries and continents, and it means that nobody should risk trusting any nation that is based on WASP culture and/or ruled by people who are culturally WASP.

    1683: Poland-Lithuania saves Austria, maybe the West.
    1772, 1795: Austria takes part in the First and Third (final) Partitions of Poland-Lithuania.

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  46. Grumbler says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    I would give Bolton a year before he gets his pink slip.

    Bolton should not be given a pink slip. He himself should be “Gaddafied”. Justice demands it.

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  47. Thirdeye says:
    @Robert Hume
    I think there is no way out for Kim. He’s murdered and imprisoned millions of his countrymen and any weakness on his part will lead to his death.

    I don’t see a policy out either. We could recital him and his closest kin? In Switzerland, but doesn’t seem plausible.

    Our best route might be an internal revolt, but those folks are probably mostly already dead. Or if not dead implicated themselves in the murders and imprisonment.

    Blathering from invented “facts” based on a priori notions about the DPRK leadership won’t get you very far. Political changes within the DPRK are likely to be low profile, with face-saving measures to smooth the process. Kim has shown some different notions of leadership than those of his predecessors, relinquishing the God-King personna to become a relatively down-to-earth “people’s leader,” making public appearances with his wife at amusement parks and such. It seems to be a generational change. The first in line for succession in the Kim Dynasty ahead of Jong-Un wasn’t interested in the top job.

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  48. hyperbola says:
    @Pat Boyle
    My fantasy policy for advancing the cause of world peace is to have the United States acquire some little Caribbean islands and then develop them with luxury homes and grounds. We should build these compounds as tropical paradise retirement facilities for ex-dictator's.

    Then if someone like Qaddafi or Charles Taylor needs to be removed from office he would be given a choice - go to your own island and work on your tan or face invasion. The invasion could be as small as some sort of Seal Team Six action or a drone strike.

    The only objection to this approach is that democracies have a problem with rewarding villains. Some benighted SJW would probably oppose such a humane and effective policy because we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to judge others.

    Perhaps the UN could acquire some islands for treasonous war criminals like Killary; Obama and McCain.

    John McCain: Founding Father of the Terrorist Emirate of Benghazi

    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/john-mccain-founding-father-of.html

    US-Backed Terrorists Murder US’ Own Ambassador in Libya
    Murdered US Ambassador exposes US “pro-democracy” foreign policy – same terrorists US backs in Syria are behind the murder of US Ambassador in Libya.

    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2012/09/us-backed-terrorists-murder-us-own.html

    John McCain: A Closer Look at Evil (Part 2)

    http://www.salem-news.com/articles/july282010/evil-mccain-2-jg.php

    The political genealogy of Arizona Senator John McCain is firmly rooted in jewish organized crime. …..

    Perhaps the US could begin to turn over its war criminals to the international courts.

    Hillary Clinton: Destroy Syria for Israel: « The Best Way to Help Israel »

    https://www.mondialisation.ca/hillary-clinton-destroy-syria-for-israel-the-best-way-to-help-israel/5515741

    The World Will Not Mourn the Decline of U.S. Hegemony

    https://consortiumnews.com/2018/05/14/the-world-will-not-mourn-the-decline-of-u-s-hegemony/

    … From the start, the “American Century” had nothing to do with advancing democracy. As numerous key U.S. planning documents reveal over and over, the goal of that policy was to maintain and, if necessary, install governments that “favor[ed] private investment of domestic and foreign capital, production for export, and the right to bring profits out of the country,” according to Noam Chomsky. Given the United States’ remarkable possession of half the world’s capital after World War II, Washington elites had no doubt that U.S. investors and corporations would profit the most. Internally, the basic selfish national and imperial objectives were openly and candidly discussed. As the “liberal” and “dovish” imperialist, top State Department planner, and key Cold War architect George F. Kennan explained in “Policy Planning Study 23,” a critical 1948 document:…

    ….. “We lead the world,” presidential candidate Obama explained, “in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. … America is the last, best hope of earth.” Obama elaborated in his first inaugural address. “Our security,” the president said, “emanates from the justness of our cause; the force of our example; the tempering qualities of humility and restraint”—a fascinating commentary on Fallujah, Hiroshima, the U.S. crucifixion of Southeast Asia, the “Highway of Death” and more.

    Within less than half a year of his inauguration and his lauded Cairo speech, Obama’s rapidly accumulating record of atrocities in the Muslim world would include…. Obama was only warming up his “killer” powers. He would join with France and other NATO powers in the imperial decimation of Libya, which killed more than 25,000 civilians and unleashed mass carnage in North Africa. The U.S.-led assault on Libya was a disaster for black Africans and sparked the biggest refugee crisis since World War II. Two years before the war on Libya, the Obama administration helped install a murderous right-wing coup regime in Honduras. Thousands of civilians and activists have been murdered by that regime…..

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  49. Thirdeye says:
    @Stick
    The big difference between the Libya model and the Korean one is that Korea has a South Korean mediator to broker the transition. They have money and a real desire to reunify without massive bloodshed. If Whoa Fat is worried about his and his retainer's skin, then it is the South Koreans that can and should provide assurances and viable escapes for him and his henchmen. Then there is China offering a soft exile if the worst occurs. Don't know if Whoa Fat will like these options but they are considerably better than what was offered to Kaddafi. It is on South Korea to make this work.

    South Korea needs to establish more independent agency if they wish for more influence over North Korea. Getting their armed forces out from under US command would be a good first step. They then could provide ending the US presence in their country as an incentive for a change in North Korea’s posture. China and South Korea have organic interests in North Korea. The US doesn’t.

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  50. Heck of a job, Bolton

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  51. Anon7 says:

    Don’t forget, Ambassador Extraordinary Dennis Rodman supplied North Korea with an essential text:

    “The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it. That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you’re dead.”

    “What you should never do is pay too much, even if that means walking away from a very good site.”

    Little Rocket Man will come back to the table: drought conditions will further erode the Norks ability to feed themselves, and the last China wants is a million people crossing the border looking for food.

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  52. @Peter Akuleyev
    Neocon John Bolton was also one of the cheerleaders for overthrowing/killing Qaddafi back in 2011. Those old articles are still on the internet. E.g:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-on-how-obamas-blunders-in-libya-could-keep-gaddafi-in-power

    or

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-kill-libyan-dictator-muammar-gaddafi

    Bolton had to know that Qaddafi (along with Ceaucescu) is the example that Kim fears most. Is he consciously trying to sabotage Trump on this?

    Honestly, this from him is enough to really make me wonder whether he is trying to sabotage the deal on Trump, for whatever reason, by broadcasting this. He was going on about how the method used for inspection in Libya is perfectly appropriate for North Korea and just ignoring what happened to Ghaddafi afterward.

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  53. @Nathan
    It may be a footnote today, but there's no guaranteeing it will stay a footnote. The Libya intervention may well turn out to be the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st Century.

    It was immediately obvious to me that this was a betrayal that would ensure that no one would ever give up their nuclear weapons in the future.

    The people in that room did not care. They knew it too. So why did they still do it?

    It certainly wasn’t because they wanted to protect Libyans because they don’t care about people at all.

    It was because of another reason or reasons. Top reasons are, 1) Qaddafi was trying to trade oil in something other than the USD, 2) toppling Qaddafi was part of a multi part plan to bring down every government in the middle east that was hostile to Israel such as Syria and Iran.

    The banksters and the MIC are the enemy of all people on the planet. May they rot in hell. They make even Kim Jung Un look good in comparison.

    I hate my leaders with such loathing that if they were to go up in a ball of flames I would dance with joy.

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    • Replies: @NOTA
    Don’t discount straightforward incompetence. My guess is that this momentous decision was made for local office politics/ruling class favor bank reasons, or perhaps spur of the moment political calculation by not-that-smart elites. Like disbanding the Iraqi army or inviting millions of refugees into Germany.
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  54. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Neocon John Bolton was also one of the cheerleaders for overthrowing/killing Qaddafi back in 2011. Those old articles are still on the internet. E.g:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-on-how-obamas-blunders-in-libya-could-keep-gaddafi-in-power

    or

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-bolton-kill-libyan-dictator-muammar-gaddafi

    Bolton had to know that Qaddafi (along with Ceaucescu) is the example that Kim fears most. Is he consciously trying to sabotage Trump on this?

    FT editor Lionel Barber says we shouldn’t think about that part.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Lionel Barber says we shouldn’t think about that part.
     
    The Duck's needless demise was such an obvious foreign policy mistake that assuming good intentions strains credulity beyond the breaking point. For Bolton to bring it up with the summit on deck has the same problem. Invoking Qadaffi's experience now? Really?

    I would like to think this is just stupidity from the elite, but I don't believe it. The alternative is malice. Is there a third choice?
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  55. Bill B. says:
    @Nathan
    It may be a footnote today, but there's no guaranteeing it will stay a footnote. The Libya intervention may well turn out to be the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st Century.

    Yeah. Libya was insanity.

    It was crystal clear that the country would drop into a chaotic hell if you removed the only viable source of authority.

    Iraq was an inevitable neocon disaster but at least there was a plan; there was no plan in Libya.

    How about someone by punished for this? Wouldn’t that be useful?

    Voltare on the execution of the British admiral Byng for another failure in the Med 250 years ago”

    Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres

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    • Agree: BB753
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  56. Denuclearize hell. South Korea ought to develop their own thermonuclear weapons; only nukes can deter someone else with nukes. Just look at the Ukraine where they agreed to give up their nuclear weapons to Russia in return for the US & Russia guaranteeing their territorial integrity. Just a bunch of words on paper.

    We can make a deal with SK; they can develop and make nuclear weapons and we can lease them Trident missiles that they could land or mobile base. We already do that with the UK (Lockheed Martin).

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    The more countries have nuclear weapons, the more likely they are to be used once, out of craziness, miscalculation, technical error, or something we haven't thought about, or some combination of these.
    , @MBlanc46
    There’s a lot to that view. MAD is a much better deterrent than any treaty.
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  57. NOTA says:
    @Mike Carroll
    It was immediately obvious to me that this was a betrayal that would ensure that no one would ever give up their nuclear weapons in the future.

    The people in that room did not care. They knew it too. So why did they still do it?

    It certainly wasn't because they wanted to protect Libyans because they don't care about people at all.

    It was because of another reason or reasons. Top reasons are, 1) Qaddafi was trying to trade oil in something other than the USD, 2) toppling Qaddafi was part of a multi part plan to bring down every government in the middle east that was hostile to Israel such as Syria and Iran.

    The banksters and the MIC are the enemy of all people on the planet. May they rot in hell. They make even Kim Jung Un look good in comparison.

    I hate my leaders with such loathing that if they were to go up in a ball of flames I would dance with joy.

    Don’t discount straightforward incompetence. My guess is that this momentous decision was made for local office politics/ruling class favor bank reasons, or perhaps spur of the moment political calculation by not-that-smart elites. Like disbanding the Iraqi army or inviting millions of refugees into Germany.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    None of those things were spur-of-the-moment.
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  58. J.Ross says: • Website
    @NOTA
    Don’t discount straightforward incompetence. My guess is that this momentous decision was made for local office politics/ruling class favor bank reasons, or perhaps spur of the moment political calculation by not-that-smart elites. Like disbanding the Iraqi army or inviting millions of refugees into Germany.

    None of those things were spur-of-the-moment.

    Read More
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  59. bjondo says:

    Rodman, Trump, and the 2 leaders of the Koreas should share the Nobel whatever that prize is worth – not mucha after Rabin, Kissinger, Obama, Peres.

    Don’t know the input of Putin, Xi.

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  60. @Stick
    The big difference between the Libya model and the Korean one is that Korea has a South Korean mediator to broker the transition. They have money and a real desire to reunify without massive bloodshed. If Whoa Fat is worried about his and his retainer's skin, then it is the South Koreans that can and should provide assurances and viable escapes for him and his henchmen. Then there is China offering a soft exile if the worst occurs. Don't know if Whoa Fat will like these options but they are considerably better than what was offered to Kaddafi. It is on South Korea to make this work.

    I think the fact that the mediator might be their 55 years foe makes them even more paranoid about the whole deal.

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  61. Qaddafi cooperated, and was discarded. Mubarak was an ally, and got no support. Meanwhile Assad is still in Syria, and the ayatollahs still rule Iran.

    Even Fat Kim can see the pattern.

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  62. As J. Ross says, the decision to invite millions of migrants to Europe was not spur of the moment.

    If you look up Coudenhove-Kalergi and then look at what the European Commission (the EU’s unelected executive) have said and are continuing to say about mass third world migration, it’s out in the open and all along the lines of “Europe and Africa have always been part of each others history and the coming decades will see their paths entwine … Europe is going to need tens of millions of people from Africa and the Middle East in the next decade so we must secure safe and orderly routes to ensure its demographic survival”.

    Why the anger at Poland and Hungary refusing to join into a permanent EU asylum system which would give Brussels the power to ensure eastern Europe turns brown like the West, when those countries have said they will show the so-called “solidarity” demanded in any way other than relinquishing control of their borders?

    The Visegrad nations say that the problem of third world people arriving on Europe’s shores can only be solved by turning the boats back, and that a permanent mechanism to spread these people across countries in the bloc will only make the problem worse because it will send a message that everyone can come.

    The response from the European Commission and “EU leaders” like Merkel and Macron has been revelatory about the fact the European Union “was built on” values which include unlimited third world migration, with allusions to WW2 and the bloc’s founding fathers. And here’s where we come to Coudenhove-Kalergi …

    Raging against the Hungarian PM a couple of years ago, EU Vice-President Frans Timmermans said “diversity” is the future for every part of the continent including “even the most remote corners” or else Europe will “not remain a place of peace and freedom for very long”.

    Lest we forget:

    “Let’s not forget what the origin of the problem is. There is no place in modern Europe for ethnically pure states. That’s a 19th century idea and we are trying to transition into the 21st century, and we are going to do it with multi-ethnic states.”
    - Wesley Clark, U.S. general, ex-NATO Supreme Commander, talking about the NATO bombing of Serbia, 1999.

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  63. Gadaffi, the Blackfoot Indians. There’s plenty of of nations able to testify that white man speaks with forked tongue.

    For fun, let’s google “list of treaties the USA has broken”.

    Read More
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  64. @anonymous
    It does feel good to kick the witch. But such duplicity isn't limited to Libya, or Mrs. Clinton.

    1. Research how Uncle Sam turned on Iraq, shortly after leading Saddam Hussein into believing that he could aggress Kuwait without consequence.

    2. The destruction of Libya was, at the time, orchestrated and condoned by just about everyone in power. Only in the wake of a few deaths of USG "embassy" personnel in Benghazi did anyone care to finger Mrs. Clinton. The Establishment couldn't care less about what happened to the people of Lybia.

    3. Can Mr. Sailer see any pooches being screwed now?

    As long as people think that voting will change anything, it will continue not to do so.

    As long as people think that voting will change anything, it will continue not to do so.

    Right, because current circumstances are exactly as they would have been had Hillary been elected. Nope, voting for Trump was a complete waste of time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    When you’re my age, you'll likely have given up on the USA, too.

    In the meantime, have at it. And I promise not to cancel your vote.
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  65. @Dave Pinsen
    FT editor Lionel Barber says we shouldn't think about that part.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/997219298644058114

    Lionel Barber says we shouldn’t think about that part.

    The Duck’s needless demise was such an obvious foreign policy mistake that assuming good intentions strains credulity beyond the breaking point. For Bolton to bring it up with the summit on deck has the same problem. Invoking Qadaffi’s experience now? Really?

    I would like to think this is just stupidity from the elite, but I don’t believe it. The alternative is malice. Is there a third choice?

    Read More
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  66. @Joe Stalin
    Denuclearize hell. South Korea ought to develop their own thermonuclear weapons; only nukes can deter someone else with nukes. Just look at the Ukraine where they agreed to give up their nuclear weapons to Russia in return for the US & Russia guaranteeing their territorial integrity. Just a bunch of words on paper.

    We can make a deal with SK; they can develop and make nuclear weapons and we can lease them Trident missiles that they could land or mobile base. We already do that with the UK (Lockheed Martin).

    The more countries have nuclear weapons, the more likely they are to be used once, out of craziness, miscalculation, technical error, or something we haven’t thought about, or some combination of these.

    Read More
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  67. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    As long as people think that voting will change anything, it will continue not to do so.
     
    Right, because current circumstances are exactly as they would have been had Hillary been elected. Nope, voting for Trump was a complete waste of time.

    When you’re my age, you’ll likely have given up on the USA, too.

    In the meantime, have at it. And I promise not to cancel your vote.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    In the meantime, have at it. And I promise not to cancel your vote.
     
    How about repenting of being a sapper? If you won't help, don't hinder.
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  68. JimS says:

    I find it curious that every single commenter takes the North Korean negotiators at their word. Everyone just automatically jumps on the US, like the PRK is not a conniving political actor. Has it ever occurred to you that this is a negotiating tactic to extract more? That Libya never had a credible nuclear program? That PRK efectivelly deterred “regime change” conventionally for half a century? That the example of Iraq is probably more relevant than Libya?

    Yes, continue with the “white man cannot be trusted.” But never forget, as the PRK has repeatedly demonstrated, that no one else can be trusted either.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Trust, but verify, as a recent American president put it.
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  69. MBlanc46 says:

    If Qaddafi had been a Chinese client sitting on China’s doorstep, his fate would have been quite different.

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  70. MBlanc46 says:
    @JimS
    I find it curious that every single commenter takes the North Korean negotiators at their word. Everyone just automatically jumps on the US, like the PRK is not a conniving political actor. Has it ever occurred to you that this is a negotiating tactic to extract more? That Libya never had a credible nuclear program? That PRK efectivelly deterred "regime change" conventionally for half a century? That the example of Iraq is probably more relevant than Libya?

    Yes, continue with the "white man cannot be trusted." But never forget, as the PRK has repeatedly demonstrated, that no one else can be trusted either.

    Trust, but verify, as a recent American president put it.

    Read More
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  71. MBlanc46 says:
    @anonymous
    The losers in the Middle East always look so much better to me than what comes afterwards.

    I liked the Shah of Iran and Iran in the 1970s seemed to be a stable place, lots of attractive Persian women wearing tasteful Parisian fashions. Then there was the Iranian Revolution, Shah disposed, mob Islamic terror - streets packed with dark, hairy, hateful people, US Embassy stormed, America held hostage then 40 years of Shiite Iranian theocracy. How can any honest Western person not say - "Hey life was much better for them/us under the Shah".

    My idiot PC lib Left classmates then put some spin that things went down because we the USA deposed a Democratic left government by the CIA "We made em go for 8th century Islam".

    I am 100% confident in saying Iraq was better under Saddam and the Baathists then what followed:

    Anarchy, sectarian slaughter ISIS coming to power complete with open, daylight child sex slave auctions.

    Yeah, Libya under Qadaffi was much better than what came after, anarchy, collapse of economy, Libya becomes mass smuggling base for tens of millions of diseased Black African savages invading Europe.

    And the Neo Con Zionists are still going strong looking for regime change in Syria, looking do do on to Syria what was done to Iraq, Libya or even Iran.

    Nah.

    I always support Middle Eastern Leaders/movements that have good looking, clean shaven leaders with wives who are well dressed and yeah, look kind of White. Mr. and Mrs. Assad in Syria are a handsome couple - they use soap, toilet paper, all things ISIS and the Taliban or the homeless here in Chicago don't.

    We don’t have to support the Pahlavis, Husseins, Qaddafis, and Assads. Nor do we have to overthrow and kill them. There’s a huge middle ground.

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  72. MBlanc46 says:
    @Louis Renault
    Obama was president and his best and brightest just knew how kumbaya was going to result when the European trained elites of Libya were free to run the country after Qaddafi was removed. What Western trained elite is going to run North Korea if Kim is removed?

    The same people who are backing the regime now: The Chinese.

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  73. MBlanc46 says:
    @Joe Stalin
    Denuclearize hell. South Korea ought to develop their own thermonuclear weapons; only nukes can deter someone else with nukes. Just look at the Ukraine where they agreed to give up their nuclear weapons to Russia in return for the US & Russia guaranteeing their territorial integrity. Just a bunch of words on paper.

    We can make a deal with SK; they can develop and make nuclear weapons and we can lease them Trident missiles that they could land or mobile base. We already do that with the UK (Lockheed Martin).

    There’s a lot to that view. MAD is a much better deterrent than any treaty.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  74. @anonymous
    When you’re my age, you'll likely have given up on the USA, too.

    In the meantime, have at it. And I promise not to cancel your vote.

    In the meantime, have at it. And I promise not to cancel your vote.

    How about repenting of being a sapper? If you won’t help, don’t hinder.

    Read More
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