The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
"The Value of Smarter Teachers"
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From Journal of Human Resources:

The Value of Smarter Teachers: International Evidence on Teacher Cognitive Skills and Student Performance*

Eric A. Hanushek, Marc Piopiunik, Simon Wiederhold
March 20, 2018
Abstract

International differences in teacher quality are commonly hypothesized to be a key determinant of the large international student performance gaps, but lack of consistent quality measures has precluded testing this. We
construct country-level measures of teacher cognitive skills using unique assessment data for 31 countries. We find substantial differences in teacher cognitive skills across countries that are strongly related to student
performance. Results are supported by fixed-effects estimation exploiting within-country between-subject variation in teacher skills. A series of robustness and placebo tests indicate a systematic influence of teacher skills as distinct from overall differences among countries in the level of cognitive skills. Moreover, observed country variations in teacher cognitive skills are significantly related to differences in women’s access to high-skill occupations outside teaching and to salary premiums for teachers. …

All empirical strategies consistently indicate a robust positive relationship between teacher cognitive skills and student performance. In the OLS estimation with the full set of controls, we find that a one standard deviation (SD) increase in teacher cognitive skills is associated with 0.10-0.15 SD higher student performance. To put these estimates into perspective, they imply that roughly one quarter of gaps in mean student performance across our 31 countries would be closed if each of these countries were to raise the median cognitive skills of teachers to the level of Finnish teachers (the most skilled teachers by the PIAAC measures).

To put it in a different perspective, that sounds rather like a coupla IQ points. That’s good, but it also shows you the importance of a prudent immigration policy.

 
Hide 90 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. It would probably be easier to make sure you are not importing dumb students.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jake
    Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten.
    , @hyperbola
    No surprise that this is sponsored by AEI. It sounds like the usual jewish-globalist propaganda.

    Why Does the American Enterprise Institute Give $384,000 to an Israeli ‘Scholar’?
    http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/why_does_the_am/

    Two nights ago on CNN, Wolf Blitzer interviewed Dore Gold in Jerusalem and identified him as Israel’s former Ambassador to the U.N. The polished Gold offered, as usual, an articulate statement of Israeli attitudes toward the war effort. “Well for most Israelis who see this—” he began.

    Gold lives in Jerusalem but interestingly, he is also a “scholar” at the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute in Washington, paid a whopping $96,000 a year for his services.

    The curious thing is that you would never learn this on the AEI website, or from Gold’s bio at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, of which he is president. ......
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. HerwardMW says:

    Umm, doesn’t a country with smarter teachers tend to have smarter students?

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH

    Results are supported by fixed-effects estimation exploiting within-country between-subject variation in teacher skills. A series of robustness and placebo tests indicate a systematic influence of teacher skills as distinct from overall differences among countries in the level of cognitive skills.
     
    I don't know if or how they deal with the issue of more intelligent teachers working in schools with more intelligent students.
    , @Pericles
    Yeah, but in some countries smarter people tend not to go for teaching. In Sweden, for example, 'education' students are notoriously underachieving compared to other university students, and their educational program basically non-selective as well as separated from the rest of U.

    (Sweden and the Social Democrats who ran it consciously ruined a quite good governmental educational system from the 1960s and onwards; perhaps interestingly, this policy was apparently at first pursued for HBD reasons.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  3. 22pp22 says:

    It’s not a good idea to have really smart people teach those who are not. I’ve seen it happen. The teacher gets frustrated at the kids switch off and start to play up.

    I remember a US scientist once thought it would be fun to teach science in a New Zealand school. He was fine at Otago Boys and then moved to Dannevirke where he was torn to shreds by the kids and fled back to the US.

    He had got a very false impression of NZ and believed that absolutely everyone here is nice.

    I wish it were true, but unfortunately it’s not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RudyM

    It’s not a good idea to have really smart people teach those who are not.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eHiL1ChWZI
    , @johnmark7
    I was going to say something similar. Smart people cannot bear for long teaching less smart people. A teacher wants to connect with his students and he can't do that if he has to dumb himself down everyday to slower people.
    , @International Jew
    I suspect the "love" goes both ways; students don't relate well to someone who is too much above their level. Even if that idealistic Harvard grad in Teach for America does her best to relate to a classroomfull of working-class white kids — never mind black kids — she's unlikely to really connect with them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. Can someone explain how they can separate the ‘clever teachers’ issue from the probable fact that the kids are also cleverer than (world) average? Do they suggest sending Finns and Japanese teachers to Congo?

    YouTube etc are providing a way for the most intelligent teachers to reach a mass audience, which perhaps ameliorates the effect of crappy teachers. You can watch Jordan Peterson rather than be in a room with someone who is tediously reading out what’s in a text book. But there is a ‘deadness’ to that kind of learning because it’s not interactive – the student cannot stop and ask questions, though I guess he can pause and google.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    One odd thing is that, given the raw material, you would expect Finland to do better economically than it does. Sweden has been busily destroying its legacy for about 50 years now, yet seems still to do a lot better than Finland.

    For example, in 2016 Finland GDP per capita was 457000 USD while in Sweden 56300 USD, or 23% greater. (PPP adjusted, 39400 USD and 46400 US dollars respectively, or 18% greater.)

    (Source: https://tradingeconomics.com/ )
    , @Buzz Mohawk

    YouTube etc are providing a way for the most intelligent teachers to reach a mass audience, which perhaps ameliorates the effect of crappy teachers. You can watch Jordan Peterson rather than be in a room with someone who is tediously reading out what’s in a text book. But there is a ‘deadness’ to that kind of learning because it’s not interactive – the student cannot stop and ask questions, though I guess he can pause and google.
     
    That is a terrible, terrible suggestion. Many teachers in the US are already doing this. They are lazy, stupid teachers who usually have a room full of lazy, stupid students in some Godforsaken shithole city.

    There is no substitute for teaching. Call it the Socratic method, or call it whatever you want, but it is a process as natural as walking. Think: Teaching is a natural, human activity. Nobody can reinvent it. Trying to do this with Yoo-Toob etc. is ridiculous.

    Teaching and learning are human activities. There are lots of really stupid and corrupt teachers and administrators in the American education scam now. They collect your property taxas and babysit your little darlings. Mixed in among those are a few true teachers who know their subjects and actually teach. I know one. I speak with authority on this subject.

    No paper, like the one referenced in this article, means beans. Nothing. You have smart people and dumb people, and I'm not convinced that this study (yet another among countless ones) has really separated out its variable enough to disprove a simple fact: In homogenous countries like Finland, full of smart people, you will also have smart, disciplined kids with self-control. In other places, like American cities, not so much. Bad People -- Bad Places -- Bad Schools.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  5. It’s only a matter of time before we start importing foreign-born teachers to do the work that American-born teachers can’t or won’t do for the pay on offer. The UK has done this to some extent, and can proudly point you to several madrassas around the country that are cranking out the current and future Jihadis of Ukanistan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jake
    You are far behind the times. Back in the mid 1990s I noticed that academic conferences were starting to feature large numbers of speakers who were foreign born, roughly half of them new assistant professors at American colleges and the rest grad students at American colleges.

    Very few of them were whites, whether from Europe or some place like Australia. They were Asians of many nations, and blacks of many nations, and a scattered few mestizo Hispanics. They were being brought over to make certain that virtually no white male Christians would become tenured college professors in the future.
    , @Clifford Brown
    This is already commonplace. 8% of primary schoolteachers are foreign born, up from 2% in 1960.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/03/16/immigrant-teachers-play-a-critical-role-in-american-schools/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. DFH says:
    @HerwardMW
    Umm, doesn't a country with smarter teachers tend to have smarter students?

    Results are supported by fixed-effects estimation exploiting within-country between-subject variation in teacher skills. A series of robustness and placebo tests indicate a systematic influence of teacher skills as distinct from overall differences among countries in the level of cognitive skills.

    I don’t know if or how they deal with the issue of more intelligent teachers working in schools with more intelligent students.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alfa158
    I suspect that they deal with that fact by not saying it out loud.
    If you translate the summary into plain English, their study appears to prove that having smarter teachers will improve student performance but only slightly. Even a massive increase in teacher intelligence to the highest standards in the world (Finnish teachers), will cause only a slight improvement in student achievement.
    Just as there is no such thing as magic dirt there are no magic teachers. Teachers and students are both smart because the population they belong to is smart.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  7. AndrewR says:

    I don’t care enough to read the article, but from what is written here, I have one response: correlation doesn’t prove causation.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  8. Pericles says:
    @HerwardMW
    Umm, doesn't a country with smarter teachers tend to have smarter students?

    Yeah, but in some countries smarter people tend not to go for teaching. In Sweden, for example, ‘education’ students are notoriously underachieving compared to other university students, and their educational program basically non-selective as well as separated from the rest of U.

    (Sweden and the Social Democrats who ran it consciously ruined a quite good governmental educational system from the 1960s and onwards; perhaps interestingly, this policy was apparently at first pursued for HBD reasons.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. Teach for America has been sending high IQ teachers into low performing school districts for decades. Doesn’t seem to be moving the needle.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  10. Anonymous[357] • Disclaimer says:
    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  11. Pericles says:
    @TelfoedJohn
    Can someone explain how they can separate the ‘clever teachers’ issue from the probable fact that the kids are also cleverer than (world) average? Do they suggest sending Finns and Japanese teachers to Congo?

    YouTube etc are providing a way for the most intelligent teachers to reach a mass audience, which perhaps ameliorates the effect of crappy teachers. You can watch Jordan Peterson rather than be in a room with someone who is tediously reading out what’s in a text book. But there is a ‘deadness’ to that kind of learning because it’s not interactive - the student cannot stop and ask questions, though I guess he can pause and google.

    One odd thing is that, given the raw material, you would expect Finland to do better economically than it does. Sweden has been busily destroying its legacy for about 50 years now, yet seems still to do a lot better than Finland.

    For example, in 2016 Finland GDP per capita was 457000 USD while in Sweden 56300 USD, or 23% greater. (PPP adjusted, 39400 USD and 46400 US dollars respectively, or 18% greater.)

    (Source: https://tradingeconomics.com/ )

    Read More
    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    Not sure what you mean by ‘raw material’. The Swedish minority in Finland are generally richer and make up a sizeable proportion of the intelligentsia.
    , @LondonBob
    In recent years Finland has been hit by the triple whammy of the collapse of Nokia, sanctions on Russia and membership of the Euro. I know some Finns and it has been very tough economically for them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. @TelfoedJohn
    Can someone explain how they can separate the ‘clever teachers’ issue from the probable fact that the kids are also cleverer than (world) average? Do they suggest sending Finns and Japanese teachers to Congo?

    YouTube etc are providing a way for the most intelligent teachers to reach a mass audience, which perhaps ameliorates the effect of crappy teachers. You can watch Jordan Peterson rather than be in a room with someone who is tediously reading out what’s in a text book. But there is a ‘deadness’ to that kind of learning because it’s not interactive - the student cannot stop and ask questions, though I guess he can pause and google.

    YouTube etc are providing a way for the most intelligent teachers to reach a mass audience, which perhaps ameliorates the effect of crappy teachers. You can watch Jordan Peterson rather than be in a room with someone who is tediously reading out what’s in a text book. But there is a ‘deadness’ to that kind of learning because it’s not interactive – the student cannot stop and ask questions, though I guess he can pause and google.

    That is a terrible, terrible suggestion. Many teachers in the US are already doing this. They are lazy, stupid teachers who usually have a room full of lazy, stupid students in some Godforsaken shithole city.

    There is no substitute for teaching. Call it the Socratic method, or call it whatever you want, but it is a process as natural as walking. Think: Teaching is a natural, human activity. Nobody can reinvent it. Trying to do this with Yoo-Toob etc. is ridiculous.

    Teaching and learning are human activities. There are lots of really stupid and corrupt teachers and administrators in the American education scam now. They collect your property taxas and babysit your little darlings. Mixed in among those are a few true teachers who know their subjects and actually teach. I know one. I speak with authority on this subject.

    No paper, like the one referenced in this article, means beans. Nothing. You have smart people and dumb people, and I’m not convinced that this study (yet another among countless ones) has really separated out its variable enough to disprove a simple fact: In homogenous countries like Finland, full of smart people, you will also have smart, disciplined kids with self-control. In other places, like American cities, not so much. Bad People — Bad Places — Bad Schools.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    On the other hand, you have people like Greg Cochran - who is probably on nature side of the nature/nurture debate - sending his kids to crappy schools with disruptive minorities, because if you believe in nature it hardly matters where they go. Perhaps it’s better that a bright kid goes to these schools - since they get schooled in reality too. Sheltered kids turn into SJWs.
    , @Forbes
    Yup. Public education in this country is a jobs program for adults providing daycare for adolescents so that both parents can work to afford the taxes that pays for baby-sitting their kids. It's one giant circle-jerk. Actual student learning is an accidental byproduct that results from keeping boredom at bay.

    The best that a parent can do is to live in a district with other families that are achievement-oriented, motivated self-starters, and hope for the effect of group conformity in their kid's socialization.

    I hope I'm not too cynical...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  13. Teachers in non-mixed-race countries as Brazil OR in more homogeneous populations tend to score 10 points above their national avg, example, USA: avg IQ ~100; teachers: IQ ~110. But, also, the capacity to teach seems have a minimal limit specially ”to teach” teen-agers or more complex material.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  14. Jake says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    It would probably be easier to make sure you are not importing dumb students.

    Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten.
     
    To paraphrase Gen Patton, you want the other dumb bastard to have Affirmative Action teachers on every level.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  15. @Buzz Mohawk

    YouTube etc are providing a way for the most intelligent teachers to reach a mass audience, which perhaps ameliorates the effect of crappy teachers. You can watch Jordan Peterson rather than be in a room with someone who is tediously reading out what’s in a text book. But there is a ‘deadness’ to that kind of learning because it’s not interactive – the student cannot stop and ask questions, though I guess he can pause and google.
     
    That is a terrible, terrible suggestion. Many teachers in the US are already doing this. They are lazy, stupid teachers who usually have a room full of lazy, stupid students in some Godforsaken shithole city.

    There is no substitute for teaching. Call it the Socratic method, or call it whatever you want, but it is a process as natural as walking. Think: Teaching is a natural, human activity. Nobody can reinvent it. Trying to do this with Yoo-Toob etc. is ridiculous.

    Teaching and learning are human activities. There are lots of really stupid and corrupt teachers and administrators in the American education scam now. They collect your property taxas and babysit your little darlings. Mixed in among those are a few true teachers who know their subjects and actually teach. I know one. I speak with authority on this subject.

    No paper, like the one referenced in this article, means beans. Nothing. You have smart people and dumb people, and I'm not convinced that this study (yet another among countless ones) has really separated out its variable enough to disprove a simple fact: In homogenous countries like Finland, full of smart people, you will also have smart, disciplined kids with self-control. In other places, like American cities, not so much. Bad People -- Bad Places -- Bad Schools.

    On the other hand, you have people like Greg Cochran – who is probably on nature side of the nature/nurture debate – sending his kids to crappy schools with disruptive minorities, because if you believe in nature it hardly matters where they go. Perhaps it’s better that a bright kid goes to these schools – since they get schooled in reality too. Sheltered kids turn into SJWs.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  16. Jake says:
    @The Alarmist
    It's only a matter of time before we start importing foreign-born teachers to do the work that American-born teachers can't or won't do for the pay on offer. The UK has done this to some extent, and can proudly point you to several madrassas around the country that are cranking out the current and future Jihadis of Ukanistan.

    You are far behind the times. Back in the mid 1990s I noticed that academic conferences were starting to feature large numbers of speakers who were foreign born, roughly half of them new assistant professors at American colleges and the rest grad students at American colleges.

    Very few of them were whites, whether from Europe or some place like Australia. They were Asians of many nations, and blacks of many nations, and a scattered few mestizo Hispanics. They were being brought over to make certain that virtually no white male Christians would become tenured college professors in the future.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. This is entirely consistent with research done in this country. A standard deviation is HUGE. That’s the entire difference between average black and white IQ. And for that HUGE upgrade, you get a miniscule improvement in performance that could be caused by all sorts of other possibilities, including a more intelligent student population.

    I read that when it came out. Insane that Hanushek would find that meaningful.

    In fact, I wrote about a similar research case done here on TFA. TFA bleached the teacher force. The control group was 30% white (which is far less white than the teacher population as a whole), and the TFA group was 90% white (which is a little more white than high school teacher population as a whole). Difference in algebra knowledge was again, one standard deviation.

    https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/the-takeaway-from-the-tfa-study/

    They got a 7% of a standard deviation increase in performance. I didn’t mention it, but I’m pretty sure the improvement was that the kids in the control group were at the 27th percentile, and kids in the TFA group made it up to the 34th. And if you know anything about TFA (a group that’s no longer nearly as hyped as it was, thank goodness), you know they push test performance above all. Simply the hype could have gotten that improvement.

    There’s tons of research. Smarter teachers don’t do much, if anything, to improve academic results.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    THere are a ton of smaert people who couldn't teach if their lives depended on it.

    Smartness is but a factor in the ability to teach others.


    Other factors:


    willingness
    parental support
    atmosphere in and out of the classroom


    Smartness whatever that is will only get you so far. You can even be smart and wrong on the subject matter one is teaching.

    If one has the basic knowledge --- Skills can always outpace smartness ----
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  18. @education realist
    This is entirely consistent with research done in this country. A standard deviation is HUGE. That's the entire difference between average black and white IQ. And for that HUGE upgrade, you get a miniscule improvement in performance that could be caused by all sorts of other possibilities, including a more intelligent student population.

    I read that when it came out. Insane that Hanushek would find that meaningful.

    In fact, I wrote about a similar research case done here on TFA. TFA bleached the teacher force. The control group was 30% white (which is far less white than the teacher population as a whole), and the TFA group was 90% white (which is a little more white than high school teacher population as a whole). Difference in algebra knowledge was again, one standard deviation.

    https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/the-takeaway-from-the-tfa-study/

    They got a 7% of a standard deviation increase in performance. I didn't mention it, but I'm pretty sure the improvement was that the kids in the control group were at the 27th percentile, and kids in the TFA group made it up to the 34th. And if you know anything about TFA (a group that's no longer nearly as hyped as it was, thank goodness), you know they push test performance above all. Simply the hype could have gotten that improvement.

    There's tons of research. Smarter teachers don't do much, if anything, to improve academic results.

    THere are a ton of smaert people who couldn’t teach if their lives depended on it.

    Smartness is but a factor in the ability to teach others.

    Other factors:

    willingness
    parental support
    atmosphere in and out of the classroom

    Smartness whatever that is will only get you so far. You can even be smart and wrong on the subject matter one is teaching.

    If one has the basic knowledge — Skills can always outpace smartness —-

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  19. I have run a large AP program in a major Canadian city for many years, and I have observed that the university from which the teacher received his academic (not teaching) degree is a strong predictor of cognitive ability and general classroom performance. Sometimes I think making a digit-span test or the GSS WordSum (both very brief and, as Jordan Peterson says, “viciously predictive” of intelligence) part of an interview would also help to select the most capable . Of course, such a test would reduce the ethnic diversity of the teaching staff, and therefore would never fly with my employer.

    One glimmer of hope , though..last I heard, one of the more affluent and academically successful schools in our city still requires prospective English teachers to parse sentences during an interview.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  20. Forbes says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    YouTube etc are providing a way for the most intelligent teachers to reach a mass audience, which perhaps ameliorates the effect of crappy teachers. You can watch Jordan Peterson rather than be in a room with someone who is tediously reading out what’s in a text book. But there is a ‘deadness’ to that kind of learning because it’s not interactive – the student cannot stop and ask questions, though I guess he can pause and google.
     
    That is a terrible, terrible suggestion. Many teachers in the US are already doing this. They are lazy, stupid teachers who usually have a room full of lazy, stupid students in some Godforsaken shithole city.

    There is no substitute for teaching. Call it the Socratic method, or call it whatever you want, but it is a process as natural as walking. Think: Teaching is a natural, human activity. Nobody can reinvent it. Trying to do this with Yoo-Toob etc. is ridiculous.

    Teaching and learning are human activities. There are lots of really stupid and corrupt teachers and administrators in the American education scam now. They collect your property taxas and babysit your little darlings. Mixed in among those are a few true teachers who know their subjects and actually teach. I know one. I speak with authority on this subject.

    No paper, like the one referenced in this article, means beans. Nothing. You have smart people and dumb people, and I'm not convinced that this study (yet another among countless ones) has really separated out its variable enough to disprove a simple fact: In homogenous countries like Finland, full of smart people, you will also have smart, disciplined kids with self-control. In other places, like American cities, not so much. Bad People -- Bad Places -- Bad Schools.

    Yup. Public education in this country is a jobs program for adults providing daycare for adolescents so that both parents can work to afford the taxes that pays for baby-sitting their kids. It’s one giant circle-jerk. Actual student learning is an accidental byproduct that results from keeping boredom at bay.

    The best that a parent can do is to live in a district with other families that are achievement-oriented, motivated self-starters, and hope for the effect of group conformity in their kid’s socialization.

    I hope I’m not too cynical…

    Read More
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    No you're exactly correct.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  21. “variations in teacher cognitive skills are significantly [inversely] related to differences in women’s access to high-skill occupations outside teaching”

    From the paper:

    “Greater shares of women working in high-skill occupations outside of teaching are significantly related to lower cognitive-skill levels of teachers.”

    So to save the schoolchildren, the Great and the Good will start advocating for women to leave the boardroom and return to the classroom and their age-old occupation of minding the children, right?

    Right?

    Read More
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    The late justice Scalia said this in an interview, that in the old days when teaching was one of the few professions really open to women, students benefited from having the women teaching them who these days would be investment bankers or lawyers.

    contrary to what ER (whose perspective I appreciate) says above, how could having smarter teachers NOT be helpful to students? Even if they just challenge the brighter students and bring them into positions of leadership or tutoring. As a kid I could tell when I had a duller teacher by the fact that he really couldn't answer a question in depth. He could repeat what was in the textbook, but that was about it.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    When I started school, some of the older teachers had gone into the profession when it was one of a few respectable careers open to women. You had a good chance of getting a competent teacher, if not a wildly inspiring one. They could afford to weed out the hopeless ones.

    Now that other careers have opened up, the only ones who go into teaching are either well-meaning idealists who will burn out when confronted with the reality, or those too stupid to do anything else.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  22. Pat Boyle says:

    We live in the future that I envisioned as a teen age reader of Science Fiction. There was a section in some early Niven-Pournelle novel where a guy on some future world buys access to the international computer complex that can answer any question. This dream is now real . Its called Google. I never imagined that everyone would have instantaneous access to pornography. But we have that too. We don’t have all the flying cars that were on all those “Popular Science” magazine covers. But we are getting self driving cars instead.

    No doubt about it. This is the future.

    Except of course for education. We have the technical means to have a true outcomes oriented education. We could easily have testing services available on the web where anyone could demonstrate their mastery of some subject by taking a test. Then when you went to a job interview you wouldn’t have to produce a diploma for some irrelevant college degree. You could just show a printout of what exams you had passed.

    We could fire most teachers. The really talented ones would appear on TV or the computer. We could eliminate all those deadly faculty meetings. Thousands of mediocre academics could be released to do more useful work and generations of young people wouldn’t be enslaved by student debt.

    Time to get the teachers out of teaching.

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterike

    We could easily have testing services available on the web where anyone could demonstrate their mastery of some subject by taking a test.

     

    It's very hard to control cheating in that environment. You would have to bring people into testing centers to even have a shot at a cheat-free exam.
    , @Pericles
    https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/16E19/production/_88512739_army01.jpg

    "As we entered Chakkar Maidan, the venue, we were asked to remove all clothes except underwear. We had no option but to comply with the instructions even though it felt odd. The gap between candidates was about eight feet in all directions," The Indian Express quoted a candidate as saying.

     

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35693987

    Cheat on tests with no worry of being caught.

    Connect the invisible earpiece to your cell phone via Bluetooth and simply make a regular phone call.

    Its inductive collar is as thin as a sheet of paper, and it won't even be noticeable under a thin cotton t-shirt.
     
    http://www.monorean.com/en/earpiece/pro

    I guess the spy market isn't big enough. (Sign up to be notified about the Monorean Cam.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  23. Stick says:

    Exactly how is South Africa to find enough Plus One SD Teachers to elevate student achievement? I doubt they have any Finns to tap into.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  24. Intelligent teachers benefit kids by their simple presence, vocabulary, and ability to confidently answer questions student have but the dumb teachers do everything in their power to make teaching as tedious and rule-bound as possible, to put their plodding selves at an advantage. I’m a teacher and if you are smarter than your co-workers some of them, usually the ones who are the most earnest about teaching and spend the most money buying supplies for pointless group projects, WILL attempt to undermine you, usually by finding small things to tattle about to administration. Even rough kids respect intelligence in a person who takes care of themselves and has it together, so intelligent teachers with decent social skills have it easier than dumb teachers. Teaching is likely hard for the dumb teachers which is why they take out their anger on co-workers they perceive as lazy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  25. Anon[364] • Disclaimer says:

    Kick women out of the boardroom, courtroom, operating room (as physicians at least), etc. Then our teachers will be smarter. But dumb students and a lack of buy-in from certain cultures is the real problem.

    What are the demographics of elementary school children in America in 2018? How does this differ from the demographics in 1950? A homework assignment for all the ed wonks and professors.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  26. What are “cognitive skills”? Can I get a list?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  27. peterike says:
    @Pat Boyle
    We live in the future that I envisioned as a teen age reader of Science Fiction. There was a section in some early Niven-Pournelle novel where a guy on some future world buys access to the international computer complex that can answer any question. This dream is now real . Its called Google. I never imagined that everyone would have instantaneous access to pornography. But we have that too. We don't have all the flying cars that were on all those "Popular Science" magazine covers. But we are getting self driving cars instead.

    No doubt about it. This is the future.

    Except of course for education. We have the technical means to have a true outcomes oriented education. We could easily have testing services available on the web where anyone could demonstrate their mastery of some subject by taking a test. Then when you went to a job interview you wouldn't have to produce a diploma for some irrelevant college degree. You could just show a printout of what exams you had passed.

    We could fire most teachers. The really talented ones would appear on TV or the computer. We could eliminate all those deadly faculty meetings. Thousands of mediocre academics could be released to do more useful work and generations of young people wouldn't be enslaved by student debt.

    Time to get the teachers out of teaching.

    We could easily have testing services available on the web where anyone could demonstrate their mastery of some subject by taking a test.

    It’s very hard to control cheating in that environment. You would have to bring people into testing centers to even have a shot at a cheat-free exam.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    I used to go to test centers all the time for my certifications.. They are inherently cheap to operate. You just need one minimum wage clerk. some networked cheap PCs and a waiting room.

    I think you could develop some inexpensive hardware that would solve most of the security problems. After ten seconds of thought I came up with a web cam recording the teat taker and storing the video for a year. Not bulletproof but maybe good enough.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  28. Goatweed says:

    What impact will two iq points have on ACT or SAT scores?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  29. Alfa158 says:
    @DFH

    Results are supported by fixed-effects estimation exploiting within-country between-subject variation in teacher skills. A series of robustness and placebo tests indicate a systematic influence of teacher skills as distinct from overall differences among countries in the level of cognitive skills.
     
    I don't know if or how they deal with the issue of more intelligent teachers working in schools with more intelligent students.

    I suspect that they deal with that fact by not saying it out loud.
    If you translate the summary into plain English, their study appears to prove that having smarter teachers will improve student performance but only slightly. Even a massive increase in teacher intelligence to the highest standards in the world (Finnish teachers), will cause only a slight improvement in student achievement.
    Just as there is no such thing as magic dirt there are no magic teachers. Teachers and students are both smart because the population they belong to is smart.

    Read More
    • Agree: Peter Johnson
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  30. RudyM says:
    @22pp22
    It's not a good idea to have really smart people teach those who are not. I've seen it happen. The teacher gets frustrated at the kids switch off and start to play up.

    I remember a US scientist once thought it would be fun to teach science in a New Zealand school. He was fine at Otago Boys and then moved to Dannevirke where he was torn to shreds by the kids and fled back to the US.

    He had got a very false impression of NZ and believed that absolutely everyone here is nice.

    I wish it were true, but unfortunately it's not.

    It’s not a good idea to have really smart people teach those who are not.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  31. EH says:

    The effect of smarter students is at least five times greater than the effect of smarter teachers. There is also more to teaching effectiveness than smarts alone, a review of Teach for America effectiveness in NYC (IIRC) found ~0.2 s.d. improvement in student scores for teachers 1 s.d. above average (as measured by student score increases). So it would take a 1 in 1,000,000 teacher (~+5 s.d.) to close the Black-White score gap – and then only if only the Black students got such teachers. This of course would be a huge waste since getting students up to average is a lot less valuable than getting, say, the top 1% up to genius-level performance.

    Really all that is needed to get as good results as practically possible is:
    *the teachers need to be at least a a little bit smarter than the students,
    *teachers need to know their subject,
    *students have to be all at about the same ability level as each other, and
    *teachers must match the speed of teaching and difficulty of the material to what the students can handle.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  32. Jack D says:

    There have been many programs such as Teach for America where highly intelligent young people volunteer to teach inner city and other low IQ areas. Maybe the kids do a little better with these teachers than with unionized black lady teachers who just want to get it over with and collect their pensions, but not much. No matter how good the tailor is, he can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  33. @The Alarmist
    It's only a matter of time before we start importing foreign-born teachers to do the work that American-born teachers can't or won't do for the pay on offer. The UK has done this to some extent, and can proudly point you to several madrassas around the country that are cranking out the current and future Jihadis of Ukanistan.

    This is already commonplace. 8% of primary schoolteachers are foreign born, up from 2% in 1960.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/03/16/immigrant-teachers-play-a-critical-role-in-american-schools/

    Read More
    • Replies: @hyperbola
    Remember that Brookings itself is run by a racist-supremacist, abusive, foreign sect these days.

    Martin Indyk says he ‘made aliyah to Washington’ to save Israel
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/martin-indyk-says-he-made-aliyah-to-washington-to-save-israel/

    Israel: a Huge Liability on American Foreign Policy Balance Sheet – Indyk-AIPAC Secret Theft From American Industry Reaches $100 Billion
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-a-huge-liability-on-american-foreign-policy-balance-sheet-indyk-aipac-secret-theft-from-american-industry-reaches-100-billion/5344479

    Martin Indyk, Vice President and Director of Foreign Policy, Named Executive Vice President of Brookings
    https://www.brookings.edu/news-releases/martin-indyk-vice-president-and-director-of-foreign-policy-named-executive-vice-president-of-brookings/


    Brookings' "Which Path to Persia?"
    Part I: The war has already begun, total war is a possibility.
    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2011/02/brookings-which-path-to-persia.html

    For Part II please see "Which Path to Persia?: Redux"

    While the corporate owned media has the plebeians arguing over whether or not Iran should have nuclear weapons or if it intends to commit genocide against the Jews (the largest population of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel actually resides in Iran), the debate is already over, and the war has already quietly begun. Before it began, however, someone meticulously meted out the details of how it would unfold. That "someone" is the mega-corporate backed Brookings Institution.....


    America Planned to Break "Iran Nuclear Deal" Years Before Signing It
    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2018/05/america-planned-to-break-iran-nuclear.html
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  34. @Almost Missouri

    "variations in teacher cognitive skills are significantly [inversely] related to differences in women’s access to high-skill occupations outside teaching"
     
    From the paper:

    "Greater shares of women working in high-skill occupations outside of teaching are significantly related to lower cognitive-skill levels of teachers."
     
    So to save the schoolchildren, the Great and the Good will start advocating for women to leave the boardroom and return to the classroom and their age-old occupation of minding the children, right?

    Right?

    The late justice Scalia said this in an interview, that in the old days when teaching was one of the few professions really open to women, students benefited from having the women teaching them who these days would be investment bankers or lawyers.

    contrary to what ER (whose perspective I appreciate) says above, how could having smarter teachers NOT be helpful to students? Even if they just challenge the brighter students and bring them into positions of leadership or tutoring. As a kid I could tell when I had a duller teacher by the fact that he really couldn’t answer a question in depth. He could repeat what was in the textbook, but that was about it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  35. Intelligent teachers benefit kids by their simple presence, vocabulary, and ability to confidently answer questions student have but the dumb teachers do everything in their power to make teaching as tedious and rule-bound as possible, to put their plodding selves at an advantage.

    Yes, in Jacksonville, FL, where I live, the city department of schools is run by complete morons who want all the teachers and kids to be morons too, so it is official policy.

    The interesting thing is that local teachers have all sorts of hi-tech equipment up the ying-yang, but themselves lack basic literacy or common sense.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  36. Eighty-one pages of pure nonsense. More sociological B.S. You could have Hawking teaching science in a Baltimore public school and your cognitive increase would be a negative integer. It’s just sad the lengths these commies will go to for their excuses. Furthermore, this is a self-fulling prophesy. Most curricula are in stone in today’s education system. Teachers basically have a plan they must follow to meet the requirements of some state test they must give at the end of the year. There is little cognitive “creativity.”

    Read More
    • Agree: Travis
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  37. hyperbola says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    It would probably be easier to make sure you are not importing dumb students.

    No surprise that this is sponsored by AEI. It sounds like the usual jewish-globalist propaganda.

    Why Does the American Enterprise Institute Give $384,000 to an Israeli ‘Scholar’?

    http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/why_does_the_am/

    Two nights ago on CNN, Wolf Blitzer interviewed Dore Gold in Jerusalem and identified him as Israel’s former Ambassador to the U.N. The polished Gold offered, as usual, an articulate statement of Israeli attitudes toward the war effort. “Well for most Israelis who see this—” he began.

    Gold lives in Jerusalem but interestingly, he is also a “scholar” at the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute in Washington, paid a whopping $96,000 a year for his services.

    The curious thing is that you would never learn this on the AEI website, or from Gold’s bio at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, of which he is president. ……

    Read More
    • Troll: International Jew
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  38. Intelligence alone, while not the be-all and end-all, likely determines what a person is capable of learning and what sort of jobs he’s capable of performing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  39. hyperbola says:
    @Clifford Brown
    This is already commonplace. 8% of primary schoolteachers are foreign born, up from 2% in 1960.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/03/16/immigrant-teachers-play-a-critical-role-in-american-schools/

    Remember that Brookings itself is run by a racist-supremacist, abusive, foreign sect these days.

    Martin Indyk says he ‘made aliyah to Washington’ to save Israel

    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/martin-indyk-says-he-made-aliyah-to-washington-to-save-israel/

    Israel: a Huge Liability on American Foreign Policy Balance Sheet – Indyk-AIPAC Secret Theft From American Industry Reaches $100 Billion

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-a-huge-liability-on-american-foreign-policy-balance-sheet-indyk-aipac-secret-theft-from-american-industry-reaches-100-billion/5344479

    Martin Indyk, Vice President and Director of Foreign Policy, Named Executive Vice President of Brookings

    https://www.brookings.edu/news-releases/martin-indyk-vice-president-and-director-of-foreign-policy-named-executive-vice-president-of-brookings/

    Brookings’ “Which Path to Persia?”
    Part I: The war has already begun, total war is a possibility.

    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2011/02/brookings-which-path-to-persia.html

    For Part II please see “Which Path to Persia?: Redux”

    While the corporate owned media has the plebeians arguing over whether or not Iran should have nuclear weapons or if it intends to commit genocide against the Jews (the largest population of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel actually resides in Iran), the debate is already over, and the war has already quietly begun. Before it began, however, someone meticulously meted out the details of how it would unfold. That “someone” is the mega-corporate backed Brookings Institution…..

    America Planned to Break “Iran Nuclear Deal” Years Before Signing It

    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2018/05/america-planned-to-break-iran-nuclear.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @FPD72
    America didn’t sign the deal with Iran; that would have required ratification in the Senate, which never happened.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  40. Oh, lord, the nonsense about “once upon a time teachers were all smart women! Now they’re just stupid people!”

    It’s true that there are far fewer women in the highest cognitive tier still teaching. However, the AVERAGE cognitive ability of teachers is roughly the same, because lots more college educated men went into teaching. High school teachers subject related SAT scores (math for math and science, English for English and history) are well above the average college graduate, and elementary school teachers average just below the average college graduate.

    “Public education in this country is a jobs program for adults providing daycare for adolescents so that both parents can work to afford the taxes that pays for baby-sitting their kids. It’s one giant circle-jerk. Actual student learning is an accidental byproduct that results from keeping boredom at bay.”

    People who think this are utterly deluded. American schools are actually good, and the number of genuinely out of control madhouses relatively small, and largely in inner cities. We do better at educating all races than any other country, and compete relatively well at educating each race with homogeneous countries of that race.

    And we have a teacher shortage, so if it’s a jobs program, it’s doing a bad job.

    Other delusionals: anyone who thinks kids can learn from smart people lecturing on youtube.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    We don't have a teacher shortage.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  41. Pericles says:
    @Pat Boyle
    We live in the future that I envisioned as a teen age reader of Science Fiction. There was a section in some early Niven-Pournelle novel where a guy on some future world buys access to the international computer complex that can answer any question. This dream is now real . Its called Google. I never imagined that everyone would have instantaneous access to pornography. But we have that too. We don't have all the flying cars that were on all those "Popular Science" magazine covers. But we are getting self driving cars instead.

    No doubt about it. This is the future.

    Except of course for education. We have the technical means to have a true outcomes oriented education. We could easily have testing services available on the web where anyone could demonstrate their mastery of some subject by taking a test. Then when you went to a job interview you wouldn't have to produce a diploma for some irrelevant college degree. You could just show a printout of what exams you had passed.

    We could fire most teachers. The really talented ones would appear on TV or the computer. We could eliminate all those deadly faculty meetings. Thousands of mediocre academics could be released to do more useful work and generations of young people wouldn't be enslaved by student debt.

    Time to get the teachers out of teaching.

    “As we entered Chakkar Maidan, the venue, we were asked to remove all clothes except underwear. We had no option but to comply with the instructions even though it felt odd. The gap between candidates was about eight feet in all directions,” The Indian Express quoted a candidate as saying.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35693987

    Cheat on tests with no worry of being caught.

    Connect the invisible earpiece to your cell phone via Bluetooth and simply make a regular phone call.

    Its inductive collar is as thin as a sheet of paper, and it won’t even be noticeable under a thin cotton t-shirt.

    http://www.monorean.com/en/earpiece/pro

    I guess the spy market isn’t big enough. (Sign up to be notified about the Monorean Cam.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  42. johnmark7 says:
    @22pp22
    It's not a good idea to have really smart people teach those who are not. I've seen it happen. The teacher gets frustrated at the kids switch off and start to play up.

    I remember a US scientist once thought it would be fun to teach science in a New Zealand school. He was fine at Otago Boys and then moved to Dannevirke where he was torn to shreds by the kids and fled back to the US.

    He had got a very false impression of NZ and believed that absolutely everyone here is nice.

    I wish it were true, but unfortunately it's not.

    I was going to say something similar. Smart people cannot bear for long teaching less smart people. A teacher wants to connect with his students and he can’t do that if he has to dumb himself down everyday to slower people.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  43. Pat Boyle says:
    @peterike

    We could easily have testing services available on the web where anyone could demonstrate their mastery of some subject by taking a test.

     

    It's very hard to control cheating in that environment. You would have to bring people into testing centers to even have a shot at a cheat-free exam.

    I used to go to test centers all the time for my certifications.. They are inherently cheap to operate. You just need one minimum wage clerk. some networked cheap PCs and a waiting room.

    I think you could develop some inexpensive hardware that would solve most of the security problems. After ten seconds of thought I came up with a web cam recording the teat taker and storing the video for a year. Not bulletproof but maybe good enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterike
    I think you could develop some inexpensive hardware that would solve most of the security problems. After ten seconds of thought I came up with a web cam recording the test taker and storing the video for a year. Not bulletproof but maybe good enough.

    You fail to deal with Asian cheating ingenuity! Wasn't there something posted on here recently about just this kind of thing? Like people reading the screens via binoculars? I can't remember.

    Anyway, here's my system for cheating on the web test while on camera.

    Since you're at home, setup dual monitors. Have someone else sitting across from you (out of the web cam view) who sees the same test you do on the second monitor. They can happily go about looking up answers for you and easily signal them back to you. For example, writing on a piece of paper "Answer to #12 is B" and holding it up.

    Really, you'd have to watch the tape of every test taker in full. That would require an army of test monitors. I suppose you could come up with some AI to identify suspicious behavior (looking up too often? odd blinking patterns?) but it quickly gets ridiculous.


    I used to go to test centers all the time for my certifications.. They are inherently cheap to operate. You just need one minimum wage clerk. some networked cheap PCs and a waiting room.

     

    I know the kinds of places you mean. They would fail miserably in a low-trust test taking environment (i.e. Asians) for a high-stakes test. For starters, bribing the "minimum wage clerk" to look the other way. There, done.

    It really is very, very difficult to stop determined cheating.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  44. “Smart people cannot bear for long teaching less smart people. A teacher wants to connect with his students and he can’t do that if he has to dumb himself down everyday to slower people.”

    Again, another delusion.

    Here is what you probably mean:

    A person who is extremely knowledgeable in one particular subject, loves the subject dearly, and wants to share his or her love of the subject, will not do well teaching kids with no interest in the subject–or interest in faking it.

    I’m so smart I was in that genius study a few years back, and I love teaching. It’s a great intellectual challenge, and designing the curriculum to help kids understand is fun.

    It’s also fun to teach smart kids. But quite a few smart teachers enjoy working with at-risk kids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @E e
    I was a smart* teacher who didn't mind teach "dumb" students (and when I was subbing, I did a day in the self-contained "special ed" room, and there's a difference from just regular below average kids). My big complaint is lack of support for tracking or more than vague lip service to "differentiation"... The school officially had no math below algebra, and while I would have been happy to take the time needed to get a class of 85-IQ students practical arithmetic skills, I didn't like having to make the choice between signing off that they'd passed "algebra" when they were still struggling to do basic division or failing them and likely preventing them from graduating high school on time. (I'd be fine with a high school diploma that just included honest "business math" or whatever they called it back in the day. Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me.)

    (In terms of discipline, I was probably more cut out for teaching elementary school, but the certification process made it much harder to try it out before investing in more school for myself. Probably the place where more smart teachers could be useful is with young gifted kids, particularly those who are more "energetic" and not good at sitting and filling out worksheets...)

    *(Did some CTY style stuff back in the day, and went to "school near Boston")
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  45. @Pericles
    One odd thing is that, given the raw material, you would expect Finland to do better economically than it does. Sweden has been busily destroying its legacy for about 50 years now, yet seems still to do a lot better than Finland.

    For example, in 2016 Finland GDP per capita was 457000 USD while in Sweden 56300 USD, or 23% greater. (PPP adjusted, 39400 USD and 46400 US dollars respectively, or 18% greater.)

    (Source: https://tradingeconomics.com/ )

    Not sure what you mean by ‘raw material’. The Swedish minority in Finland are generally richer and make up a sizeable proportion of the intelligentsia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    Indeed (Linus Thorvalds of Linux fame is one, I believe). On the other hand, the Finns are not one-in-five hailing from 'abroad'.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  46. @Jake
    Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten.

    Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten.

    To paraphrase Gen Patton, you want the other dumb bastard to have Affirmative Action teachers on every level.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    And to be paranoid, it certainly looks like many of our policies are written by our enemies. But that's not possible. We've got folks like Mitch Turtle Brother McConnell looking out for us.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  47. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Reg Cæsar

    Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten.
     
    To paraphrase Gen Patton, you want the other dumb bastard to have Affirmative Action teachers on every level.

    And to be paranoid, it certainly looks like many of our policies are written by our enemies. But that’s not possible. We’ve got folks like Mitch Turtle Brother McConnell looking out for us.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    https://twitter.com/BreitbartNews/status/994272274424500228
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  48. @Almost Missouri

    "variations in teacher cognitive skills are significantly [inversely] related to differences in women’s access to high-skill occupations outside teaching"
     
    From the paper:

    "Greater shares of women working in high-skill occupations outside of teaching are significantly related to lower cognitive-skill levels of teachers."
     
    So to save the schoolchildren, the Great and the Good will start advocating for women to leave the boardroom and return to the classroom and their age-old occupation of minding the children, right?

    Right?

    When I started school, some of the older teachers had gone into the profession when it was one of a few respectable careers open to women. You had a good chance of getting a competent teacher, if not a wildly inspiring one. They could afford to weed out the hopeless ones.

    Now that other careers have opened up, the only ones who go into teaching are either well-meaning idealists who will burn out when confronted with the reality, or those too stupid to do anything else.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Would you say that early childhood (Kindergarten, etc.) teaching is less subject to idealism burnout than, say, high school teaching?

    And, if so, that this may be because the "idealism" of early childhood teaching is not so much actual idealism as much as it is maternal instinct?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  49. peterike says:
    @Pat Boyle
    I used to go to test centers all the time for my certifications.. They are inherently cheap to operate. You just need one minimum wage clerk. some networked cheap PCs and a waiting room.

    I think you could develop some inexpensive hardware that would solve most of the security problems. After ten seconds of thought I came up with a web cam recording the teat taker and storing the video for a year. Not bulletproof but maybe good enough.

    I think you could develop some inexpensive hardware that would solve most of the security problems. After ten seconds of thought I came up with a web cam recording the test taker and storing the video for a year. Not bulletproof but maybe good enough.

    You fail to deal with Asian cheating ingenuity! Wasn’t there something posted on here recently about just this kind of thing? Like people reading the screens via binoculars? I can’t remember.

    Anyway, here’s my system for cheating on the web test while on camera.

    Since you’re at home, setup dual monitors. Have someone else sitting across from you (out of the web cam view) who sees the same test you do on the second monitor. They can happily go about looking up answers for you and easily signal them back to you. For example, writing on a piece of paper “Answer to #12 is B” and holding it up.

    Really, you’d have to watch the tape of every test taker in full. That would require an army of test monitors. I suppose you could come up with some AI to identify suspicious behavior (looking up too often? odd blinking patterns?) but it quickly gets ridiculous.

    I used to go to test centers all the time for my certifications.. They are inherently cheap to operate. You just need one minimum wage clerk. some networked cheap PCs and a waiting room.

    I know the kinds of places you mean. They would fail miserably in a low-trust test taking environment (i.e. Asians) for a high-stakes test. For starters, bribing the “minimum wage clerk” to look the other way. There, done.

    It really is very, very difficult to stop determined cheating.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    You seem to distrust Asians. Most such comments like this express a distrust of Jews. My cousin Willy felt that way about Mormons.

    Actually the most common computerized tests - those from Microsoft - can be very valuable. For example after the divorce and I got the house I still needed to convince the lender of my credit worthiness. My advanced degrees in administration earned under a full academic scholarship did not impress them at all. But my many Microsoft certifications proved to them at once that I was creditworthy.

    So if the Asians have any sense of value you would think that they have cheated on these tests at greater rates than Occidentals. That might be true. I don't kniow. But I sugest we elevate this discussion by relying on verifiable facts.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  50. CCZ says:

    Forget teachers, you just need a whole bunch of white students in your school.

    New Jersey’s original equal education litigation focused on spending more money, but with examples like Asbury Park High School, with a 98% black and Hispanic student population, a 68% graduation rate, and a per pupil expenditure in excess of $35,000 a year, apparently money isn’t what is needed, so bring back the white kids.

    New Jersey has been hit with a major legal challenge calling for the statewide desegregation of its public schools, which remain some of America’s least integrated despite the state’s increasingly diverse population.

    “The fight to integrate New Jersey’s schools is the great unfinished civil rights struggle of our time,” said Christian Estevez, president of the Latino Action Network, one of the plaintiffs in this suit.

    About 66 percent of New Jersey’s African American students and 62 percent its Latino students attend schools that are more than 75 percent non-white, according to the lawsuit.

    Such segregation prevents hundreds of thousands of students of color from reaching their full potential, the suit says.

    The desegregation effort is spearheaded by the New Jersey Coalition for Diverse and Inclusive Schools, a new nonprofit organization chaired by former state Supreme Court Justice Gary Stein. Stein’s son, Michael, will represent the plaintiffs, along with Lawrence Lustberg, a prominent attorney who argued New Jersey’s high-profile same-sex marriage case in state court.

    [[Stein, Stein, and Lustberg, good-whites of a particular persuasion?]]

    The complaint asks the court to strike two key aspects of state law: the requirement that students must attend the school district in which they live, and the requirement that charter schools give priority to students in the district the school is located.

    http://www.nj.com/education/2018/05/lawsuit_calls_for_statewide_desegregation_of_nj_sc.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Asbury Park? Isn't that the hometown of BRUUUUUUUCE?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  51. @J.Ross
    And to be paranoid, it certainly looks like many of our policies are written by our enemies. But that's not possible. We've got folks like Mitch Turtle Brother McConnell looking out for us.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  52. @Forbes
    Yup. Public education in this country is a jobs program for adults providing daycare for adolescents so that both parents can work to afford the taxes that pays for baby-sitting their kids. It's one giant circle-jerk. Actual student learning is an accidental byproduct that results from keeping boredom at bay.

    The best that a parent can do is to live in a district with other families that are achievement-oriented, motivated self-starters, and hope for the effect of group conformity in their kid's socialization.

    I hope I'm not too cynical...

    No you’re exactly correct.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  53. “Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten.”

    There’s no such thing as affirmative action teachers. There’s no affirmative action for a test. They have to pass the credential test, and the credential test has something like a 60% failure rate for African Americans–that’s the elementary school test. The high school tests pass maybe in the 100s per year.

    Ed Schools and Affirmative Action

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Since there hasn't been much affirmative action for public high school teachers since, what, the 1990s, but there is affirmative action for college professors, maybe that helps explain my impression that a lot of the recent campus protest hijinks and Real Peer Review follies seem to be top heavy with black lady college professors who back in my day would have been high school English teachers, but now can't pass the high school teacher test.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  54. If you look at the scatterplots — student iq vs teacher iq — in the paper, you can see there’s just not much there, there. Sure you can fit a regression line through those points, and report a just-barely-significant T statistic, but every statistician knows you need to look at the data with your eyes and your common sense. And these data are pretty much just a cloud.

    That’s my low-tech objection. The other is that there’s a simultaneity issue: while smart teachers may well produce better students, smart students also attract smart teachers. And so the authors’ estimation technique — ordinary least squares (OLS) — isn’t appropriate and that .1-student-sd per 1.0-teacher-sd people here have been talking (and joking) about means nothing. It’s a long paper and I went straight to the tables in the appendix, but I did search for the strings “simultan” (the problem) and “instrument” (for “instrumental variables” — the usual attempted remedy) so I know the authors didn’t address this glaring problem.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  55. @22pp22
    It's not a good idea to have really smart people teach those who are not. I've seen it happen. The teacher gets frustrated at the kids switch off and start to play up.

    I remember a US scientist once thought it would be fun to teach science in a New Zealand school. He was fine at Otago Boys and then moved to Dannevirke where he was torn to shreds by the kids and fled back to the US.

    He had got a very false impression of NZ and believed that absolutely everyone here is nice.

    I wish it were true, but unfortunately it's not.

    I suspect the “love” goes both ways; students don’t relate well to someone who is too much above their level. Even if that idealistic Harvard grad in Teach for America does her best to relate to a classroomfull of working-class white kids — never mind black kids — she’s unlikely to really connect with them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  56. @education realist
    Oh, lord, the nonsense about "once upon a time teachers were all smart women! Now they're just stupid people!"

    It's true that there are far fewer women in the highest cognitive tier still teaching. However, the AVERAGE cognitive ability of teachers is roughly the same, because lots more college educated men went into teaching. High school teachers subject related SAT scores (math for math and science, English for English and history) are well above the average college graduate, and elementary school teachers average just below the average college graduate.

    "Public education in this country is a jobs program for adults providing daycare for adolescents so that both parents can work to afford the taxes that pays for baby-sitting their kids. It’s one giant circle-jerk. Actual student learning is an accidental byproduct that results from keeping boredom at bay."

    People who think this are utterly deluded. American schools are actually good, and the number of genuinely out of control madhouses relatively small, and largely in inner cities. We do better at educating all races than any other country, and compete relatively well at educating each race with homogeneous countries of that race.

    And we have a teacher shortage, so if it's a jobs program, it's doing a bad job.

    Other delusionals: anyone who thinks kids can learn from smart people lecturing on youtube.

    We don’t have a teacher shortage.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  57. @CCZ
    Forget teachers, you just need a whole bunch of white students in your school.

    New Jersey's original equal education litigation focused on spending more money, but with examples like Asbury Park High School, with a 98% black and Hispanic student population, a 68% graduation rate, and a per pupil expenditure in excess of $35,000 a year, apparently money isn't what is needed, so bring back the white kids.

    New Jersey has been hit with a major legal challenge calling for the statewide desegregation of its public schools, which remain some of America's least integrated despite the state's increasingly diverse population.

    "The fight to integrate New Jersey's schools is the great unfinished civil rights struggle of our time," said Christian Estevez, president of the Latino Action Network, one of the plaintiffs in this suit.

    About 66 percent of New Jersey's African American students and 62 percent its Latino students attend schools that are more than 75 percent non-white, according to the lawsuit.

    Such segregation prevents hundreds of thousands of students of color from reaching their full potential, the suit says.

    The desegregation effort is spearheaded by the New Jersey Coalition for Diverse and Inclusive Schools, a new nonprofit organization chaired by former state Supreme Court Justice Gary Stein. Stein's son, Michael, will represent the plaintiffs, along with Lawrence Lustberg, a prominent attorney who argued New Jersey's high-profile same-sex marriage case in state court.

    [[Stein, Stein, and Lustberg, good-whites of a particular persuasion?]]

    The complaint asks the court to strike two key aspects of state law: the requirement that students must attend the school district in which they live, and the requirement that charter schools give priority to students in the district the school is located.
     
    http://www.nj.com/education/2018/05/lawsuit_calls_for_statewide_desegregation_of_nj_sc.html

    Asbury Park? Isn’t that the hometown of BRUUUUUUUCE?

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Bruce is from Freehold, but both are in Monmouth County.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  58. Anonymous[886] • Disclaimer says:

    Asbury Park? Isn’t that the hometown of BRUUUUUUUCE?

    Bruce who?

    That’s the question my real working class “mill hunkie” relatives always asked when I mentioned this guy they always talked about in the rock and roll magazine. They never heard of him.

    The older ones liked Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, George and Tammy….or Myron Floren. That was it. Their wives liked musicals or, again, Lawrence Welk.

    The younger ones liked the shitkicker country guys or heavy rock-Zep, Floyd, Black Sabbath.

    Their view was that anyone who made their living on a stage that claimed to be “working class” was full of shit, and besides, they didn’t need to pay admission to see someone who looked like a factory worker, they saw that every day and got paid for it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Wasn't a big fan myself, but grew up in Philly, where he was God for a while. There was some drunken fool yelling, "BRUUUUUUUCE" at the back of every rock concert or sports event for years.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  59. LondonBob says:
    @Pericles
    One odd thing is that, given the raw material, you would expect Finland to do better economically than it does. Sweden has been busily destroying its legacy for about 50 years now, yet seems still to do a lot better than Finland.

    For example, in 2016 Finland GDP per capita was 457000 USD while in Sweden 56300 USD, or 23% greater. (PPP adjusted, 39400 USD and 46400 US dollars respectively, or 18% greater.)

    (Source: https://tradingeconomics.com/ )

    In recent years Finland has been hit by the triple whammy of the collapse of Nokia, sanctions on Russia and membership of the Euro. I know some Finns and it has been very tough economically for them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  60. Pericles says:
    @TelfoedJohn
    Not sure what you mean by ‘raw material’. The Swedish minority in Finland are generally richer and make up a sizeable proportion of the intelligentsia.

    Indeed (Linus Thorvalds of Linux fame is one, I believe). On the other hand, the Finns are not one-in-five hailing from ‘abroad’.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  61. @Rosamond Vincy
    When I started school, some of the older teachers had gone into the profession when it was one of a few respectable careers open to women. You had a good chance of getting a competent teacher, if not a wildly inspiring one. They could afford to weed out the hopeless ones.

    Now that other careers have opened up, the only ones who go into teaching are either well-meaning idealists who will burn out when confronted with the reality, or those too stupid to do anything else.

    Would you say that early childhood (Kindergarten, etc.) teaching is less subject to idealism burnout than, say, high school teaching?

    And, if so, that this may be because the “idealism” of early childhood teaching is not so much actual idealism as much as it is maternal instinct?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    On the contrary. Adolescents are unpleasant to deal with (middle school is the worst), but at least the teachers have some training in the subject.

    Elementary teachers get so much emphasis on the method of presenting the material, rather than the material itself, that many show shocking ignorance about basic computation and grammar. When the kids figure out the teacher doesn't know what she's doing, they eat her for breakfast, as she ever more frantically tries to make it "interesting" with the latest pedagogical bells and whistles.

    The old boring drills worked, but the teacher colleges have these women convinced that getting kids interested is the goal, not the means to a goal: having them know how to compute miles per gallon or how to fill out a job application form correctly. So they spent time and effort trying to teach kids "how to think" instead of giving them facts on which thought can be based. Even Archimedes needed a place to stand in order to use his lever on the world.

    This may not be true for K and pre-K, where identifying colors, being able to tie your shoe, and sharing toys are the focus, but in the number grades, it is a serious problem.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  62. E e says:
    @education realist
    "Smart people cannot bear for long teaching less smart people. A teacher wants to connect with his students and he can’t do that if he has to dumb himself down everyday to slower people."

    Again, another delusion.

    Here is what you probably mean:

    A person who is extremely knowledgeable in one particular subject, loves the subject dearly, and wants to share his or her love of the subject, will not do well teaching kids with no interest in the subject--or interest in faking it.

    I'm so smart I was in that genius study a few years back, and I love teaching. It's a great intellectual challenge, and designing the curriculum to help kids understand is fun.

    It's also fun to teach smart kids. But quite a few smart teachers enjoy working with at-risk kids.

    I was a smart* teacher who didn’t mind teach “dumb” students (and when I was subbing, I did a day in the self-contained “special ed” room, and there’s a difference from just regular below average kids). My big complaint is lack of support for tracking or more than vague lip service to “differentiation”… The school officially had no math below algebra, and while I would have been happy to take the time needed to get a class of 85-IQ students practical arithmetic skills, I didn’t like having to make the choice between signing off that they’d passed “algebra” when they were still struggling to do basic division or failing them and likely preventing them from graduating high school on time. (I’d be fine with a high school diploma that just included honest “business math” or whatever they called it back in the day. Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me.)

    (In terms of discipline, I was probably more cut out for teaching elementary school, but the certification process made it much harder to try it out before investing in more school for myself. Probably the place where more smart teachers could be useful is with young gifted kids, particularly those who are more “energetic” and not good at sitting and filling out worksheets…)

    *(Did some CTY style stuff back in the day, and went to “school near Boston”)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Can a small suburban school district decide to distinguish itself by having really good gifted programs?
    , @education realist
    Yeah, look, there's a reason why urban schools filled with African Americans have a tough time filling spots. You're basically committing fraud in those schools.

    I agree that there's a clear difference between kids with IQs below 90 and above. I have actually taught two kids with documented sub-90 IQs in my mainstream classes, and it served to confirm my belief that most of my kids are 90, more likely 95+, topping out for the most part at 115 (with more than a couple notable exceptions over that).

    I wrote about the low IQ kids here, back when Noah Smith was ludicrously claiming that it was a piece of cake to teach algebra to kids with 70 IQs.

    However, I will say that far too many teachers give up on teaching advanced topics to kids of 100+, and they shouldn't. (not saying you are.)
    , @ScarletNumber

    Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me
     
    Well if your state, like mine, makes it a graduation requirement, then schools are going to teach it at a level where the students can pass it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  63. @Almost Missouri
    Would you say that early childhood (Kindergarten, etc.) teaching is less subject to idealism burnout than, say, high school teaching?

    And, if so, that this may be because the "idealism" of early childhood teaching is not so much actual idealism as much as it is maternal instinct?

    On the contrary. Adolescents are unpleasant to deal with (middle school is the worst), but at least the teachers have some training in the subject.

    Elementary teachers get so much emphasis on the method of presenting the material, rather than the material itself, that many show shocking ignorance about basic computation and grammar. When the kids figure out the teacher doesn’t know what she’s doing, they eat her for breakfast, as she ever more frantically tries to make it “interesting” with the latest pedagogical bells and whistles.

    The old boring drills worked, but the teacher colleges have these women convinced that getting kids interested is the goal, not the means to a goal: having them know how to compute miles per gallon or how to fill out a job application form correctly. So they spent time and effort trying to teach kids “how to think” instead of giving them facts on which thought can be based. Even Archimedes needed a place to stand in order to use his lever on the world.

    This may not be true for K and pre-K, where identifying colors, being able to tie your shoe, and sharing toys are the focus, but in the number grades, it is a serious problem.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  64. @Anonymous

    Asbury Park? Isn’t that the hometown of BRUUUUUUUCE?
     
    Bruce who?

    That's the question my real working class "mill hunkie" relatives always asked when I mentioned this guy they always talked about in the rock and roll magazine. They never heard of him.

    The older ones liked Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, George and Tammy....or Myron Floren. That was it. Their wives liked musicals or, again, Lawrence Welk.

    The younger ones liked the shitkicker country guys or heavy rock-Zep, Floyd, Black Sabbath.

    Their view was that anyone who made their living on a stage that claimed to be "working class" was full of shit, and besides, they didn't need to pay admission to see someone who looked like a factory worker, they saw that every day and got paid for it.

    Wasn’t a big fan myself, but grew up in Philly, where he was God for a while. There was some drunken fool yelling, “BRUUUUUUUCE” at the back of every rock concert or sports event for years.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  65. You can pretty much ignore every Rosamund Vincy comment. Although I don’t know why I single her out–most commenters are basically yammering what they delude themselves is common sense but is in fact not even remotely borne out in reality.

    To whoever said “We don’t have a teacher shortage.”

    Yes, we do. That’s why teachers are able to strike, often illegally, in every state in the union and get what they want. That’s why no one is being fired for striking. Because ed school enrollment is way down.

    And don’t yammer about the 50 applicants for every job. Those 50 applicants are applying for a bunch of jobs, and lots of schools are left standing when the music stops. It’s true that there’s less of a shortage for elementary school teachers, but there are tons of elementary schools in poor brown districts that can’t find teachers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Fine, ignore my comments, but read Ed School Follies. Or go back to the classics and find a copy of Rafferty's What They Are Doing to Your Children. Or go back even farther: look at a 19th-century McGuffey's reader or commonplace book, and ask yourself why so many farm children and descendants of slaves could handle what today's kids cannot.
    , @ScarletNumber

    To whoever said “We don’t have a teacher shortage.”
     
    Are you unfamiliar with the Ctrl+F function? Steve mentions it from time to time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  66. @E e
    I was a smart* teacher who didn't mind teach "dumb" students (and when I was subbing, I did a day in the self-contained "special ed" room, and there's a difference from just regular below average kids). My big complaint is lack of support for tracking or more than vague lip service to "differentiation"... The school officially had no math below algebra, and while I would have been happy to take the time needed to get a class of 85-IQ students practical arithmetic skills, I didn't like having to make the choice between signing off that they'd passed "algebra" when they were still struggling to do basic division or failing them and likely preventing them from graduating high school on time. (I'd be fine with a high school diploma that just included honest "business math" or whatever they called it back in the day. Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me.)

    (In terms of discipline, I was probably more cut out for teaching elementary school, but the certification process made it much harder to try it out before investing in more school for myself. Probably the place where more smart teachers could be useful is with young gifted kids, particularly those who are more "energetic" and not good at sitting and filling out worksheets...)

    *(Did some CTY style stuff back in the day, and went to "school near Boston")

    Can a small suburban school district decide to distinguish itself by having really good gifted programs?

    Read More
    • Replies: @E e
    That's a good question. My current knowledge is limited to Massachusetts, which, ironically, has no official gifted education (not at the statewide level, anyhow). I'm also not at the income level where I'd casually consider moving for a school district, but between parents often not realizing that their own educations weren't exactly the same as what other parents got in other parts of the country, let alone other countries, and the education field lacking much sense of its own history, I'm rather pessimistic that anyone could really come to much of a consensus even in a small district...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  67. Pat Boyle says:
    @peterike
    I think you could develop some inexpensive hardware that would solve most of the security problems. After ten seconds of thought I came up with a web cam recording the test taker and storing the video for a year. Not bulletproof but maybe good enough.

    You fail to deal with Asian cheating ingenuity! Wasn't there something posted on here recently about just this kind of thing? Like people reading the screens via binoculars? I can't remember.

    Anyway, here's my system for cheating on the web test while on camera.

    Since you're at home, setup dual monitors. Have someone else sitting across from you (out of the web cam view) who sees the same test you do on the second monitor. They can happily go about looking up answers for you and easily signal them back to you. For example, writing on a piece of paper "Answer to #12 is B" and holding it up.

    Really, you'd have to watch the tape of every test taker in full. That would require an army of test monitors. I suppose you could come up with some AI to identify suspicious behavior (looking up too often? odd blinking patterns?) but it quickly gets ridiculous.


    I used to go to test centers all the time for my certifications.. They are inherently cheap to operate. You just need one minimum wage clerk. some networked cheap PCs and a waiting room.

     

    I know the kinds of places you mean. They would fail miserably in a low-trust test taking environment (i.e. Asians) for a high-stakes test. For starters, bribing the "minimum wage clerk" to look the other way. There, done.

    It really is very, very difficult to stop determined cheating.

    You seem to distrust Asians. Most such comments like this express a distrust of Jews. My cousin Willy felt that way about Mormons.

    Actually the most common computerized tests – those from Microsoft – can be very valuable. For example after the divorce and I got the house I still needed to convince the lender of my credit worthiness. My advanced degrees in administration earned under a full academic scholarship did not impress them at all. But my many Microsoft certifications proved to them at once that I was creditworthy.

    So if the Asians have any sense of value you would think that they have cheated on these tests at greater rates than Occidentals. That might be true. I don’t kniow. But I sugest we elevate this discussion by relying on verifiable facts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @education realist
    Asians do cheat on those tests far more than anyone else. Microsoft spends huge amounts of money trying to protect the integrity of those tests, and the vast majority of the cheating originates in Pakistan, India, and China.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  68. @education realist
    "Even more important is that it is slow suicide to have Affirmative Action teachers on any level, starting with kindergarten."

    There's no such thing as affirmative action teachers. There's no affirmative action for a test. They have to pass the credential test, and the credential test has something like a 60% failure rate for African Americans--that's the elementary school test. The high school tests pass maybe in the 100s per year.

    Ed Schools and Affirmative Action

    Since there hasn’t been much affirmative action for public high school teachers since, what, the 1990s, but there is affirmative action for college professors, maybe that helps explain my impression that a lot of the recent campus protest hijinks and Real Peer Review follies seem to be top heavy with black lady college professors who back in my day would have been high school English teachers, but now can’t pass the high school teacher test.

    Read More
    • Replies: @education realist
    That's entirely possible, and I never considered it before. If you've ever met any black academic high school teachers, you'd never confuse them for the Black Studies idiots. These are people with a lot of opportunities who chose teaching, or education, despite having abilities that would have gotten them affirmative actioned into law school or medicine as a far above black average prospect. A lot of them end up going into administration positions--where affirmative action *can* be practiced--because the money is far better.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  69. @E e
    I was a smart* teacher who didn't mind teach "dumb" students (and when I was subbing, I did a day in the self-contained "special ed" room, and there's a difference from just regular below average kids). My big complaint is lack of support for tracking or more than vague lip service to "differentiation"... The school officially had no math below algebra, and while I would have been happy to take the time needed to get a class of 85-IQ students practical arithmetic skills, I didn't like having to make the choice between signing off that they'd passed "algebra" when they were still struggling to do basic division or failing them and likely preventing them from graduating high school on time. (I'd be fine with a high school diploma that just included honest "business math" or whatever they called it back in the day. Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me.)

    (In terms of discipline, I was probably more cut out for teaching elementary school, but the certification process made it much harder to try it out before investing in more school for myself. Probably the place where more smart teachers could be useful is with young gifted kids, particularly those who are more "energetic" and not good at sitting and filling out worksheets...)

    *(Did some CTY style stuff back in the day, and went to "school near Boston")

    Yeah, look, there’s a reason why urban schools filled with African Americans have a tough time filling spots. You’re basically committing fraud in those schools.

    I agree that there’s a clear difference between kids with IQs below 90 and above. I have actually taught two kids with documented sub-90 IQs in my mainstream classes, and it served to confirm my belief that most of my kids are 90, more likely 95+, topping out for the most part at 115 (with more than a couple notable exceptions over that).

    I wrote about the low IQ kids here, back when Noah Smith was ludicrously claiming that it was a piece of cake to teach algebra to kids with 70 IQs.

    However, I will say that far too many teachers give up on teaching advanced topics to kids of 100+, and they shouldn’t. (not saying you are.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  70. @Steve Sailer
    Since there hasn't been much affirmative action for public high school teachers since, what, the 1990s, but there is affirmative action for college professors, maybe that helps explain my impression that a lot of the recent campus protest hijinks and Real Peer Review follies seem to be top heavy with black lady college professors who back in my day would have been high school English teachers, but now can't pass the high school teacher test.

    That’s entirely possible, and I never considered it before. If you’ve ever met any black academic high school teachers, you’d never confuse them for the Black Studies idiots. These are people with a lot of opportunities who chose teaching, or education, despite having abilities that would have gotten them affirmative actioned into law school or medicine as a far above black average prospect. A lot of them end up going into administration positions–where affirmative action *can* be practiced–because the money is far better.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  71. @Pat Boyle
    You seem to distrust Asians. Most such comments like this express a distrust of Jews. My cousin Willy felt that way about Mormons.

    Actually the most common computerized tests - those from Microsoft - can be very valuable. For example after the divorce and I got the house I still needed to convince the lender of my credit worthiness. My advanced degrees in administration earned under a full academic scholarship did not impress them at all. But my many Microsoft certifications proved to them at once that I was creditworthy.

    So if the Asians have any sense of value you would think that they have cheated on these tests at greater rates than Occidentals. That might be true. I don't kniow. But I sugest we elevate this discussion by relying on verifiable facts.

    Asians do cheat on those tests far more than anyone else. Microsoft spends huge amounts of money trying to protect the integrity of those tests, and the vast majority of the cheating originates in Pakistan, India, and China.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  72. FPD72 says:
    @hyperbola
    Remember that Brookings itself is run by a racist-supremacist, abusive, foreign sect these days.

    Martin Indyk says he ‘made aliyah to Washington’ to save Israel
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/martin-indyk-says-he-made-aliyah-to-washington-to-save-israel/

    Israel: a Huge Liability on American Foreign Policy Balance Sheet – Indyk-AIPAC Secret Theft From American Industry Reaches $100 Billion
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-a-huge-liability-on-american-foreign-policy-balance-sheet-indyk-aipac-secret-theft-from-american-industry-reaches-100-billion/5344479

    Martin Indyk, Vice President and Director of Foreign Policy, Named Executive Vice President of Brookings
    https://www.brookings.edu/news-releases/martin-indyk-vice-president-and-director-of-foreign-policy-named-executive-vice-president-of-brookings/


    Brookings' "Which Path to Persia?"
    Part I: The war has already begun, total war is a possibility.
    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2011/02/brookings-which-path-to-persia.html

    For Part II please see "Which Path to Persia?: Redux"

    While the corporate owned media has the plebeians arguing over whether or not Iran should have nuclear weapons or if it intends to commit genocide against the Jews (the largest population of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel actually resides in Iran), the debate is already over, and the war has already quietly begun. Before it began, however, someone meticulously meted out the details of how it would unfold. That "someone" is the mega-corporate backed Brookings Institution.....


    America Planned to Break "Iran Nuclear Deal" Years Before Signing It
    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com.es/2018/05/america-planned-to-break-iran-nuclear.html

    America didn’t sign the deal with Iran; that would have required ratification in the Senate, which never happened.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  73. @education realist
    You can pretty much ignore every Rosamund Vincy comment. Although I don't know why I single her out--most commenters are basically yammering what they delude themselves is common sense but is in fact not even remotely borne out in reality.

    To whoever said "We don’t have a teacher shortage."

    Yes, we do. That's why teachers are able to strike, often illegally, in every state in the union and get what they want. That's why no one is being fired for striking. Because ed school enrollment is way down.

    And don't yammer about the 50 applicants for every job. Those 50 applicants are applying for a bunch of jobs, and lots of schools are left standing when the music stops. It's true that there's less of a shortage for elementary school teachers, but there are tons of elementary schools in poor brown districts that can't find teachers.

    Fine, ignore my comments, but read Ed School Follies. Or go back to the classics and find a copy of Rafferty’s What They Are Doing to Your Children. Or go back even farther: look at a 19th-century McGuffey’s reader or commonplace book, and ask yourself why so many farm children and descendants of slaves could handle what today’s kids cannot.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  74. I have read, thought of, considered, and lived more education policy in 14 minutes than you’ve managed to barely comprehend in your entire life, so spare me your tedious cites to polemics that point out the obvious to the uninformed. And the third sentence of your comment is flatly inaccurate.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  75. I have read, thought of, considered, and lived more education policy in 14 minutes

    That’s your problem. You studied policy, not multiplication tables or sentence diagramming.

    you’ve managed to barely comprehend

    I’ve also barely managed to avoid splitting infinitives that don’t require splitting for reasons of scansion or assonance: “to BOLDly GO,” etc.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  76. ” You studied policy, not multiplication tables or sentence diagramming.”

    Wrong, idiot. I didn’t get an education degree, but an English degree. And I know more math than you do, and probably a wider sweep of US and world history.

    And I’m a big fan of splitting infinitives to more effectively communicate contempt.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Why should you need grammatical assistance to communicate contempt? Calling me an "idiot" is Argumentum ad feminam.

    Are you sure that was an English degree, not "English Education"--or better yet, "Language Arts Education"?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  77. @education realist
    " You studied policy, not multiplication tables or sentence diagramming."

    Wrong, idiot. I didn't get an education degree, but an English degree. And I know more math than you do, and probably a wider sweep of US and world history.

    And I'm a big fan of splitting infinitives to more effectively communicate contempt.

    Why should you need grammatical assistance to communicate contempt? Calling me an “idiot” is Argumentum ad feminam.

    Are you sure that was an English degree, not “English Education”–or better yet, “Language Arts Education”?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  78. Anonymous[119] • Disclaimer says:

    Rosamond, he has a blog, linked to from the word Website next to his name, with years of posts. Check it out and then decide how smart you think he is. Steve links to him from time to time, for instance:

    https://isteve.blogspot.ca/2012/11/education-realist-explains-charter.html

    https://isteve.blogspot.ca/2012/12/education-realist-responds-to-unz-essay.html

    Education Realist is one of the best of the anonymous high school teacher bloggers who report about what is really happening in schools, not the censored official version and not the non-representative horror tales, but the real stuff.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    So says anonymous.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  79. @Rosamond Vincy
    Asbury Park? Isn't that the hometown of BRUUUUUUUCE?

    Bruce is from Freehold, but both are in Monmouth County.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  80. @education realist
    You can pretty much ignore every Rosamund Vincy comment. Although I don't know why I single her out--most commenters are basically yammering what they delude themselves is common sense but is in fact not even remotely borne out in reality.

    To whoever said "We don’t have a teacher shortage."

    Yes, we do. That's why teachers are able to strike, often illegally, in every state in the union and get what they want. That's why no one is being fired for striking. Because ed school enrollment is way down.

    And don't yammer about the 50 applicants for every job. Those 50 applicants are applying for a bunch of jobs, and lots of schools are left standing when the music stops. It's true that there's less of a shortage for elementary school teachers, but there are tons of elementary schools in poor brown districts that can't find teachers.

    To whoever said “We don’t have a teacher shortage.”

    Are you unfamiliar with the Ctrl+F function? Steve mentions it from time to time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @education realist
    Entirely familiar with it. But I had several things to say, and yours wasn't important enough to go back and hunt for. I wasn't talking to *you*, really, just making sure anyone who mistakenly read your comment wouldn't think it was true.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  81. @Anonymous
    Rosamond, he has a blog, linked to from the word Website next to his name, with years of posts. Check it out and then decide how smart you think he is. Steve links to him from time to time, for instance:

    https://isteve.blogspot.ca/2012/11/education-realist-explains-charter.html

    https://isteve.blogspot.ca/2012/12/education-realist-responds-to-unz-essay.html

    Education Realist is one of the best of the anonymous high school teacher bloggers who report about what is really happening in schools, not the censored official version and not the non-representative horror tales, but the real stuff.

    So says anonymous.

    Read More
    • Replies: @education realist
    My follow list includes Steve, Charles Murray (and his son!), a Weekly Standard editor, at least one National Review editor, Andrew Biggs *and* Jason Richwine, Megan McArdle, Mickey Kaus, five or six Education Week reporters, at least one reporter from Free Beacon, another two from Tablet, at least two Wall Street Journal reporters, to say nothing of at least ten professors from R1 universities, and I stopped listing rather than an out of names. Larry Cuban republishes my stuff.


    So more than just anonymous thinks, at least, that I know quite a bit about education, from both a teaching and policy perspective.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  82. @E e
    I was a smart* teacher who didn't mind teach "dumb" students (and when I was subbing, I did a day in the self-contained "special ed" room, and there's a difference from just regular below average kids). My big complaint is lack of support for tracking or more than vague lip service to "differentiation"... The school officially had no math below algebra, and while I would have been happy to take the time needed to get a class of 85-IQ students practical arithmetic skills, I didn't like having to make the choice between signing off that they'd passed "algebra" when they were still struggling to do basic division or failing them and likely preventing them from graduating high school on time. (I'd be fine with a high school diploma that just included honest "business math" or whatever they called it back in the day. Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me.)

    (In terms of discipline, I was probably more cut out for teaching elementary school, but the certification process made it much harder to try it out before investing in more school for myself. Probably the place where more smart teachers could be useful is with young gifted kids, particularly those who are more "energetic" and not good at sitting and filling out worksheets...)

    *(Did some CTY style stuff back in the day, and went to "school near Boston")

    Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me

    Well if your state, like mine, makes it a graduation requirement, then schools are going to teach it at a level where the students can pass it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @E e
    Oh, I get that it's necessary to do that if the state requires it for graduation, but it makes "algebra II" a pretty meaningless distinction, if all it means is that you've sort of kind of finally... And if there are kids stuck in the "just get them to passing" "algebra II" class who actually could do the real deal if they weren't stuck with the kids who really just need 3 more years of pre-algebra, that's kind of a bum deal for them.

    But, yeah, my whole point is that it's stupid to make Algebra II a graduation requirement if (a) you want 90%+ of kids to graduate in a reasonable timeframe and (b) you believe that Algebra II should constitute a real set of knowledge/skills and not just be a label for a slightly more advanced math class...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  83. E e says:
    @ScarletNumber

    Diluting algebra II to the point of meaninglessness is what bugs me
     
    Well if your state, like mine, makes it a graduation requirement, then schools are going to teach it at a level where the students can pass it.

    Oh, I get that it’s necessary to do that if the state requires it for graduation, but it makes “algebra II” a pretty meaningless distinction, if all it means is that you’ve sort of kind of finally… And if there are kids stuck in the “just get them to passing” “algebra II” class who actually could do the real deal if they weren’t stuck with the kids who really just need 3 more years of pre-algebra, that’s kind of a bum deal for them.

    But, yeah, my whole point is that it’s stupid to make Algebra II a graduation requirement if (a) you want 90%+ of kids to graduate in a reasonable timeframe and (b) you believe that Algebra II should constitute a real set of knowledge/skills and not just be a label for a slightly more advanced math class…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  84. E e says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Can a small suburban school district decide to distinguish itself by having really good gifted programs?

    That’s a good question. My current knowledge is limited to Massachusetts, which, ironically, has no official gifted education (not at the statewide level, anyhow). I’m also not at the income level where I’d casually consider moving for a school district, but between parents often not realizing that their own educations weren’t exactly the same as what other parents got in other parts of the country, let alone other countries, and the education field lacking much sense of its own history, I’m rather pessimistic that anyone could really come to much of a consensus even in a small district…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It may be restricted to immigrant Tiger Parents, such as all the rich Chinese who poured into once normal middle class Arcadia, CA's school district and revamped everything for their Tiger Cubs.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. @E e
    That's a good question. My current knowledge is limited to Massachusetts, which, ironically, has no official gifted education (not at the statewide level, anyhow). I'm also not at the income level where I'd casually consider moving for a school district, but between parents often not realizing that their own educations weren't exactly the same as what other parents got in other parts of the country, let alone other countries, and the education field lacking much sense of its own history, I'm rather pessimistic that anyone could really come to much of a consensus even in a small district...

    It may be restricted to immigrant Tiger Parents, such as all the rich Chinese who poured into once normal middle class Arcadia, CA’s school district and revamped everything for their Tiger Cubs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @E e
    There are definitely some districts around here that have become oriented around the Tiger Cubs. It's not to my taste, since there seems to be a focus on things like memorizing sight words rather than actually looking at reading research, and my preference is for more social and creative preschools and solid academics by late elementary or early middle schools, but I do wonder if different kids are ready for these at different ages, and need more or less free play at earlier or later ages, or stricter or gentler discipline. Of course, politically speaking, it's more politic to frame it as a political compromise to keep different sets of parents happy. (and, to some extent, it is.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  86. E e says:
    @Steve Sailer
    It may be restricted to immigrant Tiger Parents, such as all the rich Chinese who poured into once normal middle class Arcadia, CA's school district and revamped everything for their Tiger Cubs.

    There are definitely some districts around here that have become oriented around the Tiger Cubs. It’s not to my taste, since there seems to be a focus on things like memorizing sight words rather than actually looking at reading research, and my preference is for more social and creative preschools and solid academics by late elementary or early middle schools, but I do wonder if different kids are ready for these at different ages, and need more or less free play at earlier or later ages, or stricter or gentler discipline. Of course, politically speaking, it’s more politic to frame it as a political compromise to keep different sets of parents happy. (and, to some extent, it is.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  87. @ScarletNumber

    To whoever said “We don’t have a teacher shortage.”
     
    Are you unfamiliar with the Ctrl+F function? Steve mentions it from time to time.

    Entirely familiar with it. But I had several things to say, and yours wasn’t important enough to go back and hunt for. I wasn’t talking to *you*, really, just making sure anyone who mistakenly read your comment wouldn’t think it was true.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    yours wasn’t important enough to go back and hunt for
     
    Yet you took the time to respond to this comment.

    Methinks thou doth protest too much.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  88. @ScarletNumber
    So says anonymous.

    My follow list includes Steve, Charles Murray (and his son!), a Weekly Standard editor, at least one National Review editor, Andrew Biggs *and* Jason Richwine, Megan McArdle, Mickey Kaus, five or six Education Week reporters, at least one reporter from Free Beacon, another two from Tablet, at least two Wall Street Journal reporters, to say nothing of at least ten professors from R1 universities, and I stopped listing rather than an out of names. Larry Cuban republishes my stuff.

    So more than just anonymous thinks, at least, that I know quite a bit about education, from both a teaching and policy perspective.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Meh. When Trump used the word "shithole" I thought of the places where you teach.

    Also, I'm surprised you have any followers with that short fuse of yours.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  89. @education realist
    Entirely familiar with it. But I had several things to say, and yours wasn't important enough to go back and hunt for. I wasn't talking to *you*, really, just making sure anyone who mistakenly read your comment wouldn't think it was true.

    yours wasn’t important enough to go back and hunt for

    Yet you took the time to respond to this comment.

    Methinks thou doth protest too much.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  90. @education realist
    My follow list includes Steve, Charles Murray (and his son!), a Weekly Standard editor, at least one National Review editor, Andrew Biggs *and* Jason Richwine, Megan McArdle, Mickey Kaus, five or six Education Week reporters, at least one reporter from Free Beacon, another two from Tablet, at least two Wall Street Journal reporters, to say nothing of at least ten professors from R1 universities, and I stopped listing rather than an out of names. Larry Cuban republishes my stuff.


    So more than just anonymous thinks, at least, that I know quite a bit about education, from both a teaching and policy perspective.

    Meh. When Trump used the word “shithole” I thought of the places where you teach.

    Also, I’m surprised you have any followers with that short fuse of yours.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The evidence is clear — but often ignored
What Was John McCain's True Wartime Record in Vietnam?
The unspoken statistical reality of urban crime over the last quarter century.
The major media overlooked Communist spies and Madoff’s fraud. What are they missing today?
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.