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Tall-Shaming Is a Thing in the Mediterranean
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Lots of people then wrote in with additional examples from Mediterranean cultures of sayings that tall people are dumb.

 
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  1. Although I don’t speak Portuguese, I was told that there is a saying in that language that holds that women are like sardines : the small ones are the best.

  2. DFH says:

    NNT is now coping for being a manlet as well as being from a low-IQ population.

    Poor little guy……..

    • LOL: Thorfinnsson
  3. Paul says:

    My understanding is average heights have increased in places that have become more prosperous and where people are better able to afford meat (a source of protein). Also, the less densely populated parts of the globe have more available land for animals. Meat is an inefficient way of obtaining food; the animals have to be fed. Americans, though, are used to eating a lot of meat.

    • Replies: @MarkU
    , @Ray Huffman
  4. IHTG says:

    The term “tawil” for a dull-witted tall person is also known to Israeli Jews. I’d associate it with somebody who is tall but also thin and clumsy, as if he’s too tall for his mass.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    , @Anonymous
  5. Realist says:

    I doubt there is evidence equating height to intelligence.

    • Replies: @DFH
  6. Anonymous[150] • Disclaimer says:

    The Assad dynasty are, literally, big men.

    As is, or was, Walid Jumblatt, the Druze leader.

  7. @IHTG

    The late British actor Bernard Bresslaw, who was Jewish, played the “tawil” type very well, particularly in numerous Carry On films.
    He was very tall, 6ft 7in ( 2.01m ) but was heavily built, not thin. But he played many comic roles where his clumsiness was emphasized.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Bresslaw

  8. DFH says:
    @Realist

    the correlation coefficient of height and intelligence was generally found to be around 0.2,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_and_intelligence#Statistics

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Realist
  9. As far as HBD is concerned, Taleb is a buffoon. All over the Mediterranean, from Spain to his native Lebanon, Basketball is a very popular spectator sport, unlike nearly all of Northern Europe.
    Abnormally tall Basketball players are idolised in places like the Lebanon. In the Lebanon, many top Basketball players are imported American dindus, to add insult to injury.
    If tall shaming is a Mediterranean attitude, why is Basketball a popular spectator sport there ? Why are these tall athletes so popular ?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Reg Cæsar
  10. @Tono Bungay

    As well the ones with the least smell.

  11. MarkU says:
    @Paul

    “Meat is an inefficient way of obtaining food; the animals have to be fed.”

    That is not really true you know. Growing crops to feed to animals is an inefficient way of obtaining food to be sure. However there is a lot of land which is unsuitable for growing crops which can accommodate grazing animals, that is definitely not an inefficient way of obtaining food.

  12. Anon[314] • Disclaimer says:

    Wait … Taken directly responded to a Sailer tweet?

  13. Carol says:

    I think there is something to, I’m tall so I don’t have to try as hard. Maybe it’s because of an incredibly dumb stepson, I dunno. But most the tall guys I’ve known have been less energetic, less driven, more smug and dismissive of shorter guys, but with little to show for their natural advantage.

    As I said over at half sigma, shorter guys are just more fun.

  14. Paul says:

    I have heard the idea that smaller people tend to have more energy. It is interesting how those East African distance runners can keep going.

  15. @Verymuchalive

    You used to be able to make jokes about football players being dumb like my Gronkowski’s philosophy class joke, but football was very popular.

    There are lots of jokes about blondes being dumb, but blondes are popular.

    • Replies: @res
    , @Lot
    , @dr syon
    , @rob
  16. Anon[320] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    @Realist

    the correlation coefficient of height and intelligence was generally found to be around 0.2,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_and_intelligence#Statistics

    I wonder whether this might be skewed by smaller people who were preemies.

    Preemies and underweight babies more likely to have low IQs
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-preemies-cognition/preemies-and-underweight-babies-more-likely-to-have-low-iqs-idUSKCN1G31VI

    Also:

    Premature baby girls shorter as adults: study
    https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/about/news-events-and-notices/news/news-2016/11/premature-girls-shorter-as-adults.html

    0.2 is a week correllation. Most traits correlate at 0.4 to 0.6. When you see something lower, there’s often a rest of the story. By the way, male homosexuality is only about 0.2 or 0.3, so there must be something else there, also.

    Reading Kevin Mitchell’s recent book Innate, I learned about how much happens between fertilization/meiosis/the creation of a new and unique genome, and the finished child. Development, the construction of the cells of the fetus, continues throughout pregnancy, and in some respects into early childhood and even through age 20 or 30 for some things. The brain and nervous system take up about a third of the effort. Anything that adversely affects that can result in suboptimal development. Or another very real possibility is that less intelligent fetuses are more likely to abort or be premature. Intelligence is just one aspect of what they are referring to as “general fitness,” the degree to which a person’s genome and cells are relatively free of defects and mutations, and thus has higher intelligence, less likelihood of various diseases, etc.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  17. Anonymous[679] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m frankly a little skeptical of this. As a random piece of counter evidence, in Mario Puzo’s novel The Sicilian, one of the major characters is frequently mocked by his fellow Sicilians for his short stature.

    I would be quite willing to bet that it still pays to be a tall guy in whatever Mediterranean locale Taleb cares to name.

  18. @Tono Bungay

    Portuguese proverbs comparing women to sardines:

    “A mulher e a sardinha querem-se da mais pequenina” (. . . are to be preferred smaller)

    “A mulher e a sardinha, quanto maior mais daninha (. . . the larger, the more harmful)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  19. Big Anthony in the Tomie de Paola Strega Nona series of Italian folktale based children’s books seems like a good example of this

  20. Anonymous[261] • Disclaimer says:

    One has to wonder if this ridicule of the tall in the Mediterranean is due to the short height of people there-we ridicule the different; or whether it is a response to feeling short compared to their competition- at least in our country we make ourselves the best by turning a negative into a positive; or whether a culture of ridiculing height for many generations has helped lead to a shorter male population via tall guys being under negative selection by women who follow the crowd.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Don't Look at Me
  21. ATBOTL says:

    “…tall guys being under negative selection by women who follow the crowd…”

    Uh, no. Women don’t follow the crowd when it comes to sexual attraction, they follow raw, animalistic instincts for male strength, symmetry and dominance.

    • LOL: Rosie
  22. res says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Taleb makes an interesting point, but I’m inclined to interpret that tall shaming as (like your examples) being more about envy than scorn. Short shaming is most definitely not envy based. Generally for notions like that (in either case) to get traction there needs to be some basis in reality. So perhaps the settler/HG split he cites is the explanation. In that case there might have been a rural/urban difference in both height and “intelligence” (as defined by urbanites, cf. current IQ debates about rural Africans).

    Perhaps the parsimonious explanation is that tall shaming is a form of othering?

    Any thoughts on how to distinguish those cases?

    • Replies: @Don't Look at Me
  23. Dmitry says:
    @Anonymous

    On average, men in Spain are clearly very short people – whenever I visited Spain, I was shocked how short they mostly seem. .

    But in Italy, I did not notice people were short and in Greece I did not notice people were short.

    So average height distributions does not seem – from this superficial traveller’s impression – to generalize over all races in the Mediterranean; it seems rather to vary between nationalities.. Also aren’t Yugoslavians quite a tall race (although being around probably half Mediterranean genetically, with a lot of DNA from the Romans)?

  24. Altai says:

    Makes sense in cultures with a longer history of cereal agriculture to have a folk idea against tallness. Excessive growth requires protein, in such societies a disposition towards growth would tend to lead to malnutrition and lankiness. Bending down to dig in a field or tend crops would also be an issue. Their diets didn’t support that physiology with less protein. Then you have just typical human ingroup favouritism with short Mediterranean denigrating tall Barbarians and those with presumed such ancestry.

    By contrast the descendants of the pastoral peoples up North would have had a lot of protein in their diets from dairy and their cultures were also more war-like until more recently.

    One interesting thing about height in terms of genetics is how despite being highly polygenic, the alleles under greatest selection tend to be very different even in closely related populations like the Dutch versus the English, indicating that selective sweeps (and I use sweep in a general sense, not just in a rapid bottleneck sense) for and against height is something that happens quite frequently throughout history and that it may be related to cycles of food availability and overall economic or social patterns. The recent height increases among the Dutch seem to have been a very recent situation starting in the last few hundred years.

    • Agree: Twinkie
    • Replies: @res
  25. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:
    @for-the-record

    Different rules apply to women though. It’s not comparable.

  26. @Paul

    My understanding is average heights have increased in places that have become more prosperous and where people are better able to afford meat (a source of protein).

    Way back, the red deer of Scotland was introduced into New Zealand. These deer became became larger, on average, than the deer back in Scotland because of the better forage available in New Zealand.

    Meat is an inefficient way of obtaining food; the animals have to be fed.

    Not necessarily. There are a lot of marginal lands, unsuitable for agriculture, where livestock can be grazed.

  27. GU says:

    Mediterraneans have a ball-busting culture. That is what most commenters are missing here. Name a trait, and some Sicilian guy will figure out a way to make fun of it.

    Meds make fun of tall people because they make fun of everyone. Simple as that.

    • LOL: BB753
  28. @Anon

    0.2 is a week correllation.

    It is, but it is still correlation. Anything above 0.5 is considered to be strong correlation. So height does correlate with intelligence, but it is not one of the primary factors. Brain size also correlates with IQ, but it is once again one of many factors. Intelligence is a complicated subject and there is not one or a small set of variables that determine it.

  29. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer

    “There are lots of jokes about blondes being dumb, but blondes are popular.”

    I think this is limited to Northern Europeans where blondness is common. In Southern Europe and Latin America, it is associated with high socioeconomic status.

    In the NE context, I am inclined to believe that, like most stereotypes, it is at least partly true. My split-second mental associations with very fair people is they have a suite of neotenous mental features: sweeter natured, trusting, kinder, and a little less bright overall.

    • Replies: @GU
    , @Nonsense
  30. res says:
    @Altai

    Interesting comment.

    One interesting thing about height in terms of genetics is how despite being highly polygenic, the alleles under greatest selection tend to be very different even in closely related populations like the Dutch versus the English, indicating that selective sweeps (and I use sweep in a general sense, not just in a rapid bottleneck sense) for and against height is something that happens quite frequently throughout history and that it may be related to cycles of food availability and overall economic or social patterns. The recent height increases among the Dutch seem to have been a very recent situation starting in the last few hundred years.

    Can you recommend any research showing this? In particular, contrasting height with other phenotypes in this respect.

    P.S. I thought much of the recent height increase among the Dutch was likely to be environmental?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  31. Cortes says:
    @Dmitry

    To my eye the average height of Spanish people has shot up over the past 40-odd years. The benefits of regular access to a varied diet including plenty of meat has produced over the last couple of generations increasing numbers of tall (180+ cm) folk and not only in the north where people were generally taller than the rest of the country in the past (at least as far as I recall).
    The slogan chanted by older women in the demos after the ludicrous coup attempt against the Gonzalez government in the early 1980s was telling. “No más lentejas!” (No more lentils!) an allusion to the awful penury of the post Civil War years endured by so many. The wonderful “Voices of the Old Sea” by Norman Lewis provides an excellent description of the precarious existence of the inhabitants of a fishing village and the almost overnight transformation with the arrival of mass tourism.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Dmitry
    , @Dmitry
  32. Realist says:
    @DFH

    Rather low correlation.

    While it is anecdotal, I can not think of many famous scientists over 6 feet tall….only Tesla comes to mind. Maybe you know others.

  33. J1234 says:

    Not a whole lot of tall shaming that I could see in Italy or Greece, where tall northern European tourists are a major benefit to the local economies. In countries or areas that get less tourists, though, there could be anti-tall sentiments towards other locals.

    I’m tall, but have no superior feeling about it. I think most of us tall people, as a rule, are less well proportioned than most people of average or below average height.

  34. OP says:

    This is generally true from a Spanish/Hispanic perspective. It probably has to do with 1. differences being easier to mock and 2. clumsiness and lankiness associated with tall individuals.

  35. GU says:
    @Lot

    Blonde-haired men and women surely have above-average IQs (on average). They are also more likely to be kind and trusting, something that people from non-trusting cultures (or genetic heritages) often mistake for stupidity. The missing link for these folks is that, until very recently, in places with lots of blondes, you didn’t have treat every interaction with strangers like caveat emptor haggling at a Middle Eastern bazaar.

    While stereotypical nice white person behaivor is probably unwise in 21st Century USA, it is not indicative of low intelligence.

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Dmitry
  36. Anonymous[397] • Disclaimer says:

    It isn’t necessarily tall-shaming but the tall-is-dumb is common in the West too.

    It’s no accident that Frankenstein Monster is big and tall. And in cartoons, giants are often lumbering and dumb while smaller characters use wit to get the upperhand.

    In Archies Comics, Moose the big tall guy, is dumb.

    In Jewish mythology, the big dumb Golem towers above the Jews who created him.

    David beat Goliath.

  37. dr syon says:
    @Steve Sailer

    There are lots of jokes about blondes being dumb, but blondes are popular.

    I’ve never actually heard a “dumb blonde” joke in the wild (i.e., outside of a movie).

  38. seems like a ‘dumb blondes’ thing. a reality inversion joke spread far and wide. within groups, taller people are smarter, slightly. and blondes are smarter, slightly.

    wonder if this mediterranean height insult thing started as a verbal offense to tall outsiders. ‘dumb barbarians’ from the north or east.

    US military study from 1980, female recruits, ASVAB scores converted to wechsler scores, sorted by self reported hair color:

    yellow 103
    brown 102
    red 101
    black 100

    europeans only, all other recruits excluded from data.

  39. JMS says:

    One wonders if the Old Testament stories of David and Goliath and stuff about Giants & nephilim plays a role in this cultural trend?

  40. Twinkie says:
    @ATBOTL

    Uh, no. Women don’t follow the crowd when it comes to sexual attraction, they follow raw, animalistic instincts for male strength, symmetry and dominance.

    And, yet, singers > actors > athletes, in terms of attracting beautiful women.

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @BB753
  41. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    I suspect in general, guys who are good athletes and play high school level or college level sports attract more beautiful women than guys who are good singers and sing in church choirs and local singing groups and the like.

    The singers who attract more beautiful women than athletes do are highly successful, modern “recording artists” whose distinguishing feature is not singing ability but the fact that their fame is highly amplified by the mass media.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  42. Anon[178] • Disclaimer says:

    Apparently there is heightism in China:

  43. guest says:

    Forget the Mediterranean. As if we’ve never heard of a Lumbering Oaf. Or Mongo. Sasquatch.

  44. guest says:
    @ATBOTL

    Can you possibly be that ignorant? Women will blow the ugliest celebrities known to man within 30 seconds of meeting them

    • Replies: @Anon
  45. @Dmitry

    Yugoslavian height is most strongly correlated with their high frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup I2, which does not come from the Mediterranean but from further North.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

  46. Lots of people then wrote in with additional examples from Mediterranean cultures of sayings that tall people are dumb.

    According to Harvard researchers, published in JAMA, tall people hit their heads much more often than short people. The trauma causes brain damage. The estimated IQ reduction is 4 points for every inch above the mean.

    Okay, I made that up. But it could be true. Or not.

    • LOL: Rosie
  47. @Verymuchalive

    Basketball is also popular among Puerto Ricans and Philippines.

  48. @res

    P.S. I thought much of the recent height increase among the Dutch was likely to be environmental?

    It’s better to have your head above sea level when the dike breaks?

  49. I’m just gonna leave the final word to Randy Newman… master-trolling Short People since 1977 (and Rednecks since 1974).

    Short People

    Rednecks (golden lyric: “College men from LSU… went in dumb, come out dumb too“)

    Fuck you, Isaiah Dixon, you attempted-song-banning short-ass bitch: I’m glad you’re dead.

    HAIL KEK.

  50. @Anonymous

    I guarantee you, wherever you go on the planet, the women will overall like the taller guys. Seen it everywhere I’ve been.

  51. R-Unit says:

    As someone from a Middle Eastern culture, yes, the phrase “tawil habil” is a thing, but it doesn’t mean that they engage in “tall shaming.” All Middle Easterners I know consider “tall” to be a compliment, there is much more contempt for short men.

    It’s like saying because western society has a stereotype about beautiful airheads we do not value beauty and people would rather be ugly.

    Traits that are beneficial in sexual selection tend to be admired the world over.

  52. @ATBOTL

    Not quite true. Women do observe how men sort themselves by social status and then go after the guys at the top of that pyramid. They don’t think about it too much though. They just find themselves inexplicably being attracted to the captain of the football team and not the loner math nerd. So in that sense it is an instinct.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  53. @res

    Tall guys don’t have any beef with short guys. Any short shaming going on is motivated by something else. Tall guy and a short guy fight over a parking space, he might make a short joke just because he’s upset with the short guy and he thinks it will hurt him. But he probably has short friends and family members.

    Women, on the other hand, are usually very unsympathetic with men they are not attracted to, and that does include short guys. Unless, of course, that short guy has other strengths that make up for it.

  54. Twinkie says:
    @Anonymous

    I suspect in general, guys who are good athletes and play high school level or college level sports attract more beautiful women than guys who are good singers and sing in church choirs and local singing groups and the like.

    You would be surprised. Guys in bands or a cappella singing troupes in high schools and colleges often do better than athletes (esp. when you factor in the SES of the females). As a former nationally-ranked junior athlete (and a combat sport athlete at that), this used to boggle my mind.

    Something about singing/performing is intoxicating for a lot of women. For good or bad, people aren’t animals, and this is yet another manifestation of that. Human females aren’t just attracted to the physically powerful – often they are even more attracted to those who can produce beauty.

    It’s the same impulse, perhaps even transcendental, in us that lets us appreciate a beautiful sunset the way no animal only fixated on surviving and breeding does.

  55. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Singing and dancing displays are common among animals, unlike complicated athletic contests that aren’t directly related to food acquisition or fighting.

    There are cliques of girls who focus on the musical guys, but in general the athletes do better with girls.

    • Replies: @Meretricious
  56. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    Human females aren’t just attracted to the physically powerful – often they are even more attracted to those who can produce beauty.

    What these men don’t undid that selection pressures are hot absolute. Rather, there are multiple and countervailing selection pressures operating in nature at any given time. Arguably, women developed a fascination with musicians as a result of their extraordinary intelligence, creativity, and resourcefulness. Women who loved musicians simply had more reproductive success. The fascination carries on to this day. Big dumb brutes might be good at fighting other big dumb brutes, but they’re still just big dumb brutes in the end. If only brawn mattered, we’d all be homo neanderthalensis. BTW, I don’t necessarily agree with the evolutionary psychology perspective, I’m simply pointing out that it fails even on its own terms.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  57. @Twinkie

    Singing in public requires considerable courage, singing well mastery. Both are very attractive to women.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Anonymous
  58. Rosie says:
    @Don't Look at Me

    They just find themselves inexplicably being attracted to the captain of the football team and not the loner math nerd. So in that sense it is an instinct.

    False. The problem is that the longer math nerd ignores nerds of the opposite sex in favor of the ditzy cheerleader, who inexplicably get to define what women want, as if they are the only women who exist and matter.

    Don’t get me wrong. Ditzy cheerleaders have their place, and the world needs all kinds, but they don’t define all of womanhood.

  59. Rosie says:
    @Desiderius

    Singing in public requires considerable courage, singing well mastery. Both are very attractive to women.

    Nice try, but no. We just really, really love musicians.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  60. @Cortes

    The Gasol Brothers from Spain are perhaps the only 7-footer brothers in NBA history who aren’t identical twins. They are splendid examples of the post-poverty Spain that emerged not all that long ago.

  61. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    I understand singing “My Way” at a karaoke bar in some places requires a high level of physical courage and/or a suicidal impulse.

  62. I write from Italy and I have roots in both the north (Lombardy) and the south (Sicily and Sardinia), but I personally grew up in the north.

    Frankly, I never heard these sayings, like “uomo lungo, testa corta” (“long man, short head”); in fact, height is considered a sign of beauty: “altezza, mezza bellezza” (“height [is already] half beauty”) is a very widespread motto. When visiting Sicily in my youth, 45 years ago, both me and my brother were lauded for our height, compared to our local relatives there; the same in Cagliari (Sardinia).

    Perhaps these “proverbi” refer to excessively high persons; in fact “lungo” is not normally used to refer to a well structured high person (“alto” is the proper adjective), but rather to someone whose tallness is clumsy.

  63. @Rosie

    Lots of actresses marry rock stars.

  64. Bruno says:

    In most countries, height is neutral for men fertility and slightly negative for women. That’s why generations should shorten with times. Peobably nutrition more than compensate this trend until now. In this respect, it could be like Menie theory about intelligence disgenics.

    In Netherlands though, correlation is positive for men and neutral for women. That would explain why they have become giants in one century.

    It would be interesting to have the data about herzegovinian people who are the tallest in the world. This fact is not well known because they are split among Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia. But it’s thanks to them that Montenegro people have had the highest height in the world until 5 years ago, when they were taken over by Dutch.

    For each proverb and old saying, you find another one in the same language saying the contrary.

    • Replies: @BB753
  65. Lot says:
    @GU

    “Blonde-haired men and women surely have above-average IQs (on average).“

    Of course! They are mostly Northern Europeans.

    I was only talking about blond v brunet North Euros, sorry if that wasn’t clear.

  66. Anon[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @guest

    That’s what they want you to think.

    Lots of celebs date/marry mediocre or ugly women.

  67. Anon[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Lots of singers/performers are beautiful and charismatic, so women love them. I suspect most of them excelled with women even before they entered music.

    Lots of athletes are handsome and well-built, so they can be attractive too. Also, athletes tend to be confident, sexually aggressive, and popular.

    From my experience with athletes, you see a lot of them excel with women. However, a surprising number struggle. At my div 1 football powehouse university, a lot of the football players struggled, especially the fat or brutish looking guys. The QB had an attractive gf though.

  68. BB753 says:
    @Twinkie

    Money trumps all preferences.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  69. BB753 says:
    @Bruno

    Herzegovinians are not only tall but well-built, unlike the gangly Dutch.

  70. Dmitry says:
    @Cortes

    On average, Spanish people seem short even today. I didn’t know about this topic historically, but it was one of the impressions I had from contemporary Spain (I was most recently there in 2016, when we travelled all over the country across the summer).

    Also I had no prior expectation. For example, in Japan, people are short, but you expected before you arrive, so it’s not something that surprises you when you land there. But in Spain, you notice all the shorter people – and when you see groups of taller people in Spain, you notice they are usually groups of other tourists, like English and German tourists which flood there in the millions.

    I guess it is likely genetic, as Spain is a developed country with a normal diet, and yet people seem significantly shorter in Spain compared to other countries of Europe.

    For example, in Russia, there is a reported regional variation for height, although it’s not something which is significant enough you notice it in real life if you visit different cities. But young people in Saint Petersburg are measured by state hospitals on average 1,5 centermeters taller than young people in Moscow. This cannot be attributed as differences in diet or environment, but probably is a result of a slightly different regional distribution for height genes.

  71. Dmitry says:
    @Cortes

    has shot up over the past 40-odd years

    Such intergenerational difference for height, is something you can notice a lot in Russia. I guess across countries in Europe, intergenerational height difference is something which inversely correlates with degree of functionality in a country’s political/economic history.

  72. Dmitry says:
    @GU

    I’m not sure hair colour matches very universally to social trust, except as some collateral effect of the common cause of many blonde people coming from some of the most wealthy, civilized and safe countries in the world like Norway, Finland or Sweden.

    It’s true, in the USSR, that in the brown Caucasian states, the corruption was the highest.

    But then if we talk about street scams? 1990s Saint Peterburg in Russia, was famous for its scams in the streets. Even this week – a scandal in the Russian internet, is about the alleged tea scammers still in the city, who haggle young women to buy overpriced Chinese tea, pretending that this is a “tea tasting” session. But Saint Peterburg is proportionally a blonde city, and these scammers are local youth.

    Personally, I still sometimes (last year) encounter a few scammers when I visit in my own home city, which is also quite a blonde area, although perhaps less so. You don’t want to wear too expensive Nike sneakers in some parts of my home city, and you will have people chasing you for money (which is something you don’t really experience in brown countries like Spain).

    Also what do you guys remember from school – did you ever notice correlation between hair colour and personality? For example, looking in my school photos from recently, I was noticing most of my class was blonde – and this was a pretty badly behaved class, where nobody was studying much and our main mission was cheating the teacher until exams. Yet I remember other classes in our school, were the opposite and full of nerds. (And even those classes were probably not near as calm as any school in Japan).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  73. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    , I still sometimes (last year) encounter a few scammers when I visit in my own home city, which is also quite a blonde area

    My home city (I won’t say the name of this city here), is also a lot more criminal and tough city, with many harder people, than any cities I’ve been through in Southern Europe, despite the fact that in Southern Europe they are mostly brown (and black haired) people.

    The worse that can happen in a country like Spain, is thatt someone wants to steal your bag or phone in the cafe. And maybe in Spain, you have to check that cashiers will give you the correct change.

    But other than a few small things like that, Southern Europeans are generally a very soft, harmless and well behaved people, who have possibly even become “over civilized” and too weak. In other words, hair colour has literally no relation to these topics.

    • Replies: @BB753
    , @Dmitry
  74. @Anonymous

    Yiddish proverb: “With money in your pocket you are handsome and sing well, too.”

  75. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @IHTG

    Ya we have that. Gangly, awkward, lanky. Big eared freaks

  76. BB753 says:
    @Dmitry

    It must be the excess Yamnaya steppe genes that keep Eastern Europeans manly and violent, God bless them! Northern Euros have become such a bunch of disgusting pussies, it’s embarrassing! (Except working class Brits).
    As for Southern Euros, when faced with violence, they’re more talk than walk, but they’re still clannish enough not to fall altogether for suicidal xenophilia.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  77. rob says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I think the association of blonde with dumb is because blondes are more common in populations that tend to be trusting and prosocial. Honesty is taken for stupidity by people from low trust cultures. It seems that there’s a dumb blonde trope in Brazilian culture, another place where Northern and Southern Europeans mixed. The stereotype seems to have started in France, pretty much a place where the peoples mixed. It would be interesting to know if Italians have a dumb blonde stereotype.

    There’s also the issue that most people don’t put much stock into DBS, and the jokes started about the time for example, dumb Pollack jokes weren’t acceptable. There’s also the issue of who’s doing the stereotyping. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Jews thought blondes were dumb, and blacks did not.

    On topic to both DBS and tall-shaming is the matter of disparaging the sexual competition, which would tend to push stereotypes into inaccuracy, business and general cultural stereotypes would tend to be more accurate, since people have more casual and business relationships than sexual ones. Do the Amish have sex through a hole in the sheet? I dunno, and am not sure how I would find out.(googling would be cheating.)

    It would be interesting to have rules of thumb for whether a stereotype is likely to be more or less true. While I hate to stereotype, stereotypical sociologists don’t do interesting or useful research like that.

    Lastly on tall-shaming, growing bigger takes more food for a while, or even more food to get bigger faster. In a calorie/protein-limited environment, the nutrients have to come from something, maybe some tall people grow at the expense of brain.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  78. Anonymous[328] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry

    According to this page on Wikipedia, the average male height in Spain is in fact about an inch or two shorter than in Greece and Italy.

  79. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    women developed a fascination with musicians as a result of their extraordinary intelligence, creativity, and resourcefulness.

    Now you are overdoing it, because, I suspect, of your particular preference.

    Women who loved musicians simply had more reproductive success.

    I’d like to see you present evidence for this assertion as well as that for the idea that musicians have “extraordinary intelligence.”

    Not all or even most (beautiful) women would choose musicians over athletes or either over, say, an investment banker. Their preferences for types of males do convey information about the women as well.

    Big dumb brutes might be good at fighting other big dumb brutes, but they’re still just big dumb brutes in the end. If only brawn mattered, we’d all be homo neanderthalensis.

    1. We – Eurasians – all have Neanderthal ancestry in us, usually around 2-3%.

    2. Our anatomically modern human ancestors beat the Neanderthals, precisely because they were better at fighting/hunting than the latter.

    3. Throughout most of civilization, men who got the ladies (especially beautiful ones) were exactly the men who were good at organized group fighting – otherwise known as war.

    4. “Dumb brutes” aren’t very good at war. War is the ultimate test – it is multi-dimensional and multi-modal. It tests intelligence, courage, perseverance, resilience, and so on. It’s the ultimate selection pressure, because those who fail that test usually died, were sold as slaves and worked to death, or were otherwise marginalized and disappeared.

    5. Sports can be argued to be a substitute/preparation for war in peacetime. I suspect ancient Olympic winners in Greece enjoyed the adulation of the ladies, not the flute-players or bards. After all, as Herodotus wrote, ancient Persians educated their noble youths to “Ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth,” not to sing or dance well. The feminine appreciation for musicians is a relatively recent development coinciding with the rise of luxury civilizations – for people with time on their hands to appreciate beauty.

  80. Twinkie says:
    @BB753

    Money trumps all preferences.

    No, it doesn’t.

    As a quick example, many women prefer a broke six-footer over a 5’5″ multi-millionaire.

    • Replies: @BB753
  81. Rosie says:

    I’d like to see you present evidence for this assertion as well as that for the idea that musicians have “extraordinary intelligence.”

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0278262608002303

    We – Eurasians – all have Neanderthal ancestry in us, usually around 2-3%.

    Right. And if homo sapiens hadn’t outcompeted Neanderthals, we would have 2-3% homo sapiens DNA and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

    “Dumb brutes” aren’t very good at war. War is the ultimate test – it is multi-dimensional and multi-modal. It tests intelligence, courage, perseverance, resilience, and so on. It’s the ultimate selection pressure, because those who fail that test usually died, were sold as slaves and worked to death, or were otherwise marginalized and disappeared.

    None of this was my point. The implication around here is that women who preferred dominant, aggressive men had a selective advantage over women who preferred resourceful and flexible men who could adapt to change and problem solve. That is the premise that I’m challenging.

    The feminine appreciation for musicians is a relatively recent development coinciding with the rise of luxury civilizations – for people with time on their hands to appreciate beauty.

    Evidence for that?

    This looks for like a primordial fascination than a “recent development” to me:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DdOcYTOBA0CI&ved=2ahUKEwi8r5C2pdThAhUpqlkKHS-lCIcQjjgwDXoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3a2YZP7aS0zhfkk1KUJjFQ

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  82. BB753 says:
    @Twinkie

    Not for marriage, they don’t.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  83. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0278262608002303

    That study is about “divergent thinking” – nonconformism – among musicians and has nothing about “extraordinary intelligence.”

    The implication around here is that women who preferred dominant, aggressive men had a selective advantage over women who preferred resourceful and flexible men who could adapt to change and problem solve. That is the premise that I’m challenging.

    That is a straw man you constructed – “dumb brute fighters “ vs. “intelligent musicians.” In reality, fighting and war attracted far greater intelligence than music for much of our history for obvious reasons. Indeed nonconformism of artists was downright dangerous in times of crisis when social cohesion was paramount for survival and victory in war.

    Even now, it’s the classical musicians and “band geeks” – rule followers – who are more intelligent, not the rock band types who attract screaming teenage girls.

    Evidence for that?

    The fact that warriors and athletes were far higher status than musicians for much of human history. And women are status-seekers par excellence.

    primordial fascination

    Yes, and I alluded to that in earlier comments. However, increased (concrete) female preferences for that is recent – in times of plenty.

  84. Twinkie says:
    @BB753

    Not for marriage, they don’t.

    Nope. For marriage, too, women seek education rather than money per se. That’s because education correlates better with status/class than money.

  85. Dmitry says:
    @BB753

    Society’s environmental effects on the individual, can be a very dynamic system, exhibiting unpredictable feedback loops.

    A problem we all see today from the “too functional and successful societies” (like Sweden or Norway), is that they produce such naive individuals, lacking street wisdom. Societies like the Swedish one, which totally shelter people from any environment pressures, can be a very mixed blessing in this Nietzschean sense.- and I’m not sure the “pussiness” of the people they create, needs any explanation about ancient genes.

  86. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    I wanted the excuse to post the world famous and internationally laughed at, mafia graves of my cold home city. (I’ll add a MORE tag before, so not to make it too distractingly offtopic)

    [MORE]


  87. Dmitry says:
    @rob

    As a folk stereotype, of course, association “dumb” and “blonde” only refers to women anyway, not to men, and it is surely result of the introduction of hair coloration in the 20th century.

    The association between “dumb” and “blonde” (which exists today also in Russia) – refers specifically to a type of women who colour their hair to lightest blonde.

    In the era when hair dye was new, this was particularly self-selecting a vain type of young women, whose existential project was male attention, and whose personality overexaggerated feminine helplessness and naive stupidity.

  88. Nonsense says:
    @Lot

    “In Southern Europe and Latin America, it is associated with high socioeconomic status”

    Erm no. Blondeness is proxy for general higher European ancestry in Latin America, a region of recent admixture. In Southern Europe, there exists no such thing because both brunet and blond individuals have the same ancestry.

    What’s up with Nordocucks trying to make everything about themselves?

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