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From Israel National News, a story about the injury toll women in supposed combat units suffer in training exercises:

Study Finds Women Don’t Belong in Combat

New book shows women in combat suffer much more serious non-combat injuries, alleges IDF cover-up.

By Gil Ronen

First Publish: 6/11/2014, 2:46 PM

A new book sums up 13 years of research on female participation in IDF combat units and declares the feminist experiment in the Israeli military a failure. “Lochamot Betzahal” by Col. (res.) Raza Sagi, a former infantry regiment commander, points to high rates of serious injury among women serving in combat units, and to involvement of radical political groups behind the scenes of the campaign for combat service by women. …

“The study found that a particularly high percentage of women who served in combat roles suffered physical harm during their service and will suffer for the rest of their lives from ruptured discs, stress fractures in the pelvis, uterine prolapse and more,” Sagi told Maariv/NRG.

While men also suffer injuries during their military service, he said, studies prove that the female rate of injury is much higher and that the seriousness of the average injury is greater, with entire platoons sometimes unable to function because of the physical state of the female soldiers. The injuries referred to are incurred in training and routine deployment – not actual combat.

Similarly, the injury toll that sports take on women is coming more into focus. Here’s a NYT article on the physical trauma that the 2014 Winter Olympics inflicted on women athletes.

“The idea that there is no difference between men and women in the army is a ridiculous one that has been disproved in all of the world’s militaries,” Sagi insisted. “One cannot defeat evolution. In days in which a meaningful reduction of the defense budget is required – there is no doubt that the matter of placing women in combat roles requires reassessment.”

“People will read the book and discover that they have been misled in everything pertaining to women’s service in the military,” he predicted. “The integration of women in the army has not succeeded, but everyone keeps shouting at us, that we must open before women the remaining units that have not yet been opened to them. …

The IDF told Maariv/NRG that Sagi’s claims are “completely baseless” and that women’s integration into combat units has been a success.

Generally speaking, Israel is a saner country than America. But not everything is different.

 
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  1. IHTG says:

    The presence of women in such units is also a hindrance to the army’s other goal of recruiting more Haredim. There’s kind of a schizophrenic dynamic here where the army is simultaneously becoming more religious AND more prone to feminist hobby-horsing. It works surprisingly well as long as they keep their focus on different units.

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    Yeah, and as long as they don't have to fight a country with a real army. Hezbollah gave the Israelis all they could handle in 2006 and they aren't even a country, much less a country with an air force and tanks, just a movement with some underground bunkers.
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  2. @IHTG
    The presence of women in such units is also a hindrance to the army's other goal of recruiting more Haredim. There's kind of a schizophrenic dynamic here where the army is simultaneously becoming more religious AND more prone to feminist hobby-horsing. It works surprisingly well as long as they keep their focus on different units.

    Yeah, and as long as they don’t have to fight a country with a real army. Hezbollah gave the Israelis all they could handle in 2006 and they aren’t even a country, much less a country with an air force and tanks, just a movement with some underground bunkers.

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  3. IHTG says:

    What I meant is that it works well in terms of the amount of internal controversy and “media drama” that it generates (surprisingly little). The effect of religious and/or feminist advocacy on the IDF’s combat efficiency is unknown to me.

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  4. dearieme says:

    “One cannot defeat evolution.” Indeed. It’s mad not to use women in the armed forces; it’s mad to use them in action.

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  5. First, Israel National News isn’t really a reputable source. I remember when they were broadcasting off the coast on a boat.

    Second, Israel won ’06 despite the casualties. It was obvious at the time. I think van Creveld wrote about it later.

    Third, you’re quite right and it’s Captain Obvious that women have better outlets for their heroism than the war.

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  6. “Second, Israel won ’06 despite the casualties. It was obvious at the time. I think van Creveld wrote about it later.”

    Nothing proves that Israel won a recent war more than a citation of a military historian.

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  7. sansfoy says:

    If 10,000 Israeli women faced off against 10,000 Arabs, I still think I’d take the Israelis.

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  8. Hunsdon says:

    sansfoy said: If 10,000 Israeli women faced off against 10,000 Arabs, I still think I’d take the Israelis.

    Hunsdon said: If 10,000 Israeli women faced off against 10,000 Arabs, I think the Israelis would have already lost, regardless of the outcome of the battle.

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  9. WhatEvvs [AKA "Pseudonymph"] says:

    This is one of those “everybody knows that” things, but which persists, because the people who shove it on the rest of us are disproportionately influential. I keep wondering why and how this happens.

    In the Steveosphere, which is basically now a more genteel form of MacDonaldism, it’s because the Jews are a virus bringing down the host society. But that’s obviously disproved by Israel’s case. Modernity is insane, and it infected non-religious Jews with a greater intensity than the general pop’n, that’s all. Modernity = crazy people who really really think they are bringing about progress and change and all kinds of good stuff.

    Israel may in general be a saner country than the US, but the Tel Aviv bubble houses elites that are every bit as nuts as those in the US, maybe nuttier.

    , wasn’t there a scandal where a woman in the Caracal unit was discovered to be derelict, pissing her uniform behind a bush, while a skirmish was going on, which led to the death of a religious soldier? And before this was discovered, Netanyahu tried to turn this into a PR triumph of feminism in uniform

    @Steve, don’t dismiss Van Creveld as just “some military historian.” He’s one of the better ones. Wrote a book about combat which stressed that women should be nowhere near it:

    http://tinyurl.com/lzoztqa

    Maybe the Israelis didn’t defeat Hizbollah as decisively as they defeated conventional armies but that’s because no conventional army defeats insurgencies that are situated amongst a population decisively. Take a look at us and Afghanistan, Vietnam….the list goes on.

    What the gender equality feminists don’t understand is that women always women, playing the cards evolution gave them. Just survive, and have babies, and watch the soldiers go home with broken bodies and minds. Who really wins?

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  10. OzRazor says:

    Just to clarify, the IDF got their asses handed to them in 2006, they were embarrassed badly. See a US Army study, http://carl.army.mil/download/csipubs/matthewsOP26.pdf. Adding women to the front lines in future wars will only make matters worse for the IDF.

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  11. SFG says:

    “If 10,000 Israeli women faced off against 10,000 Arabs, I still think I’d take the Israelis.”

    Jewish women are ball-busters…

    Naah, seriously, yeah, I’d bet on the Israelis. Technology is a handy thing in a war.

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  12. JHanson says:

    “Israel won.”

    I too take my drugs early and often.

    HA’s defense in depth strategy womped the hell out of an IDF used to beating up Palestinian grannies. Easily the finest light infantry in the world, pound for pound.

    The Israelis left Lebanon with their tales between their legs while the US media declared victory for them.

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  13. “uterine prolapse”

    That’s one I’m not going to google.

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  14. Steve says:

    Hezbollah is dug into Southern Lebanon as the Japanese were dug into their Islands in WW2, only in urban areas. That kind of war is hard for any army – if they wish to avoid civilian casualties at all. They have much more sophisticated weaponry than most conventional armies, and possess tens of thousands of rockets. Their armed forces are in fact units of the Iranian army. Whether Israel was surprised tactically on the field or not (they were) has nothing to do with the end strategic result and nothing to do with women in combat. Israel has had the quietest 8 years on the Lebanese border they have had in 50 years. And Hezbollah is embroiled in a civil war in Syria with no end in sight. Israel was also given a wake-up call as to the type of warfare made necessary by dug in units in urban areas. I would say things have turned out extremely well for Israel as far as the 2006 war went – far better than Israeli victories, which only led to more fighting and to complacency.

    As for women in combat, they are not really used in combat in Israel. There is one unit on the Egyptian border which is a mixed unit and which is increasingly female. It is really an anti-smuggling unit. I suspect a female combat unit would never be actually committed to an army to army battle. So in the end, all the combat training is not only a sham, it is a waste.

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  15. Michael H says:

    I agree that the vast majority of women wouldn’t be suited for combat, but there doesn’t need to be a blanket prohibition of women in combat roles. The tiny minority of women who would actually *want* to be in combat are probably butch enough to do OK.

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  16. Anthony says:

    In 1948, and maybe in 1956, it was more important to have people who could pull triggers than to protect women from injuries. Being able to double their combat force does significantly improve their chances of national survival in a way that’s not really a concern for European or American nations.

    One wonders if there’s a eugenic effect of having some number of the physically weakest women getting severely injured by military training.

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  17. Priss Factor [AKA "Skyislander"] says: • Website

    I say send all sons and daughters of elites into the military. Since elites decide which wars to fight, I say let their kids fight.

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  18. Hunsdon says:

    Michael H said: The tiny minority of women who would actually *want* to be in combat are probably butch enough to do OK.

    Hunsdon said: Stuff and nonsense. If we posit your theory as true, that’s still no argument in favor of women in combat. Separate barracks, separate training, blah blah blah. Catering to the whims of the perhaps 2-7 percent of women who could hack it in combat is a no-win proposition.

    Anthony said: One wonders if there’s a eugenic effect of having some number of the physically weakest women getting severely injured by military training.

    Hunsdon said: Being injured in military training is not eugenic. Humping 50-100-150-200 pounds of gear on your back can break down the most otherwise-entirely-physically-healthy individuals.

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  19. JHanson says:

    It is a testament to the power of delusion that after 13 years of a high tech modern military struggling against an insurgency armed with 70 year old tech there are still fools who will seriously believe that technology is some sort of panacea in combat.

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  20. matt says:

    Arutz Sheva (“Israel National News”) is a far-right settler newspaper with many, many, many axes to grind. Van Creveld isn’t perfect but I take him much more seriously than I take those bozos.

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  21. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    When a low tech army successfully invades a high tech country then Hanson might have a point. Eventually a big war is going to break out and I assure you the side with the high tech army is going to be very grateful.

    I think it says a lot about Paleocons that they are so invested in Israel having got it’s butt kicked in 2006. Who did better Israel in 2006 or Patty B in 2000?

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  22. JHanson says:

    Handwaving, anon. Besides, if you want to talk about offensive strikes subverting two 747s into cruise missiles was a stroke.

    Pretty telling that jews still believe their own propaganda and can’t accept shooting kids throwing stones ain’t the same as fighting first class light infantry. Schwarzkopf knew it during the Gulf and 2006 blew it out in the open.

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  23. Michelle says:

    I work with someone who is transitioning from female to male. I will use the feminine pronoun for clarification. She graduated from paramedic training, but her heart’s desire is to be a firefighter. She’s been getting testosterone shots for almost a year now. She always looked like a pretty boy. People would whisper in my ear and ask if she was a boy or a girl. She quit working with us to go to the fire academy. A few weeks ago, I saw her back at work. She can’t continue at the fire academy right now because she tore her rotator cuff. Of course, she looks like an ideal candidate, not a bull dyke, but muscular and fit, a lot like Billie Jean King in her prime. She also has a great personality and a sterling work ethic. Her academy instructor loves her and is saving a place for her in the next class. But I know it will never work out, she was doomed by biology even before she started. Her shoulder will never be right again. She’d have been a great paramedic though, but maybe her injury will even preclude her from that profession. Maybe the testosterone makes her weaker muscles more likely to be injured.

    On the other hand, I believe the first female promoted to fire captain in San Francisco was recruited when another fire captain spotted her using a chainsaw in a park and told her the way she handled the chainsaw made him think she’d make a great firefighter. I believe he turned out to be right in that case.

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  24. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Maybe it is hand waving, but the guy who hand waved away technological superiority might want to be careful about throwing that around. Not Jewish by the way though I have to admit implying your opponent is a Jew is an charming debate tactic. Since confused Jews made up about 50 percent of Patty B’s vote total id look a little more kindly on them.

    Speaking of which if there’s one man that knows about taking on a professional well trained army it’s Schwarzkopf a couple more Italian camera crews and he might have been able to go all the way to Baghdad.

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  25. Steve said:
    >>I would say things have turned out extremely well for Israel as far as the 2006 war went – far better than Israeli victories, which only led to more fighting and to complacency.<<

    Very good point – just as the initial Egyptian tactical victory in the Yom Kippur war allowed for future peace and a much better result for Israel than Egypt's crushing defeat in the Six Day War had done. Israel's failure to defeat Hezbollah in the 2006 invasion – really a major Hezbollah victory – seems to have made Hezbollah a much more mature and stable organisation. In consequence Hezbollah is now shoring up the secular Syrian regime and preventing the victory of Syrian Al Qaedists who would be a far greater threat to Israel than Arab Nationalists ever were (ironic that the US actually supports the Al Qaedists).

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  26. Women in combat – if you want women to be combat-effective, put them in women-only units, with woman-appropriate training, pack weights, etc. Van Creveld’s point was that women degrade the effectiveness of the men in mixed-sex units, but it’s also likely that female soldiers themselves will be ineffective when surrounded by much bigger, stronger men. This is for psychological reasons – put girls among the boys and the girls act girly, and the guys treat them like girls. They need to be kept separate.

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  27. Priss Factor [AKA "Cloudcastler"] says:

    “Women in combat – if you want women to be combat-effective, put them in women-only units, with woman-appropriate training, pack weights, etc. ”

    No, just give them loudspeakers.

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  28. MIchael H says:

    @Hunsdon

    Yes, I think that I didn’t give enough thought to the additional complications women serving in combat roles would create, so I’ll concede that you’re probably right that it wouldn’t be worthwhile to permit it, at least under present conditions. Now, under radically different conditions, say a war where national survival was at stake and there were critical manpower shortages, then I still think it might be worthwhile experimenting with it; after all the Soviets in WW2 achieved significant success with female troops under just such conditions.

    I any case case I think that if a decision were ever made to allow women to serve in combat, it should be based strictly on a calculation of what would best serve the national interest, rather than be a sop to the principle of equal rights.

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  29. In the Steveosphere, which is basically now a more genteel form of MacDonaldism, it’s because the Jews are a virus bringing down the host society. But that’s obviously disproved by Israel’s case.

    Positing that feminism is a destructive ideology that has an ethnic angle does not imply that advocates of feminism are aware of its destructive nature or the ethnic angle. The most-effective advocates are true believers, and there is little doubt that most feminists sincerely believe that they are doing something beneficial for their “host” societies. In Israel, they’ll advocate the same thing. Of course, Israel has the advantage of a societal immune system that has not been outlawed.

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  30. ray says:

    “So in the end, all the combat training is not only a sham, it is a waste.”

    It has significant propaganda value, and that’s largely why the State of Israel pushed the combat-fem jive. Of course, it’s a bunker-society, so most of the adult citizenry must be militarized to some extent.

    The State of Israel shares most of America’s agenda concerning feminism and the “equality” of females . . . and so Israel rebels, along with America, against the very clear instructions and commands in Scripture as to proper male/female behavior and roles. Feminism has v deep roots in the modern Israeli State, including domestic law. Fatherhood and the nuclear family are being dismantled, just as was accomplished here.

    The Israeli State places its faith and trust in the fashions and schemes of this world, instead of in the God who allowed them a place to live.

    Some folks are sure slow learners. Oh well. Cheers.

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  31. ray says:

    Clicked away from my last comment, and doink! right onto this–

    http://www.redstate.com/diary/lifeofgrace/2014/06/11/gay-pride-flag-flies-us-embassy-tel-aviv/

    Obviously these Tel Aviv celebrants, and many others locally, don’t believe in God. What they don’t get is that their disbelief isn’t going to matter.

    Cheers.

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  32. Steve says:

    A few points I would like to comment upon:

    1. “wasn’t there a scandal where a woman in the Caracal unit was discovered to be derelict, pissing her uniform behind a bush, while a skirmish was going on…”

    Exactly correct. This unit, on the Egyptian border, unexpectedly had to face a terrorist group and one “fighter” ran away and called her mother. To be fair some other female soldiers behaved appropriately. But there is no way the Israelis would ever use such a unit in real combat.

    Van Creveld, referenced here, also noted that Israeli army psychiatrists have found that the presence of injured females is highly upsetting to male soldiers, who in such a circumstance, will not continue with their battle tasks but will devote all energy to tending a wounded female. This is another reason females will never, ever be placed on a true front line. By the way the overwhelming number of Israeli female recruits do not ask for placement in the Caracal unit or any other combat position. Boys , however, overwhelmingly prefer to gain entry into combat units in Israel.

    2. “Pretty telling that jews still believe their own propaganda and can’t accept shooting kids throwing stones ain’t the same as fighting first class light infantry”

    I do not know what propaganda and what “jews” you are referencing. No one in Israel thinks that stone throwers have anything to do with light infantry or that fighting one is fighting another. If Israel wanted to clear out the entire West Bank, it could do so in 48 hours. The West Bank is a political problem, not a military one. No one in Israel thinks this is true of Southern Lebanon or Jordan or Syria or Egypt. As for “light infantry” and all the rest, “the Jews” will just have to live with your sense of superiority. I am sure they will manage.

    3. “The State of Israel shares most of America’s agenda concerning feminism and the “equality” of females”

    This is superficial. Although Israel, like the West, has a loud media left wing, in actual practice, as evidenced by actual abortion rates, actual divorce rates, number of children born, number of children living in two parent households, etc., Israel is a very family oriented society. But one should not mix up European Christian and Jewish tradition.
    Traditionally religious Jewish society in Eastern Europe, as is evidenced by Yiddish literature, does not glorify the silent, stay at home, woman. That is simply not who Jews are. The classic, most traditional, most religious, ideal was a scholar husband who studied and a wife that took care of the home (with children) and who also worked outside the home, in the secular world, to support the scholar. This carried over to the non-religious generations. Golda Meir would never have called herself a “feminist”. Only a Zionist.

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  33. DWB says: • Website

    NB:

    thanks for the reply; I regret the use of the word “prove,” as you’re right to point out – nowhere do you claim to prove anything. FWIW, I don’t necessarily accept Unz’s claim that HYP discriminate in favour of Jewish applicants. I think it’s likely, though again, not proven, that they do discriminate against Asian applicants based on the data.

    The application information I got was directly from Harvard’s office of admissions, where the application is readily available.

    I also know that Harvard is in MA, not NY. And that MA has the largest over-representation. But then you throw in NJ and NY. Florida also seems to have a signifcant over-representation, and it is quite far from Harvard, and not well known for outstanding public education. That is why I asked for the obverse case – the relative ratio of NY/NJ at Stanford vs, say, Texas.

    In the end, as a mathematician, I always caution people on drawing too-firm conclusions from any data analysis. Many simple minded people look at, for example, the number of CEOs who are “white men,” or how few Latinos or black students are enrolled at Harvard or Berkeley in comparison to their over-all numbers, and immediately conclde some sort of racism.

    The entire argument could quite easily be put to bed if Harvard simply released the data. If there is no “there” there, then that would be the end, wouldn’t it?

    I presume that they haven’t for reasons not entirely random.

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  34. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    ht be worthwhile experimenting with it; after all the Soviets in WW2 achieved significant success with female troops under just such conditions.

    Yeah, it was such an overwhelming success (units refusing to disengage so that they could be repositioned, higher injury rates, goin AWOL to have sex with men in neighboring units, etc.) that the Red Army said NEVER AGAIN.

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