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From the Denver Post:

Ski industry pleads for increase in foreign worker visa program amid historically low unemployment

VAIL, CO – April 06: A …
By JASON BLEVINS | jblevins@denverpost.com | The Denver Post
June 4, 2017 at 12:01 am

The ski industry is wading into a political storm with a plea for the federal government to bolster its temporary visa program for foreign workers as it contends with a worker shortage.

As unemployment rates reach historic lows — especially in Colorado’s resort-centric high country — the National Ski Areas Association is imploring the secretary of Homeland Security to grow the number of immigrant H-2B visas for seasonal, unskilled workers, an overture that defies President Donald Trump’s campaign promises to put “America first.” …

“One would have to ignore reality to refuse to acknowledge that the ski industry — and all related businesses in rural mountain communities — are in critical need of help with finding reliable seasonal workers to staff our businesses,” reads an NSAA letter dated May 24 and sent to Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly and senators from Colorado, Utah, Vermont, Wyoming and Idaho. “In short, allowing more H-2B visa workers will not take away jobs from American workers, particularly in the ski industry.”

Amid the Trump administration’s calls to curtail immigration, the 1,700-page omnibus spending bill authorized by Congress last month included a provision that gives the secretary of Homeland Security the ability to grow the number of H-2B visas from its long-standing cap of 66,000 by an additional 70,000.

 
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  1. And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions who was his one real anti immigration appointment, so he’s probably to be even more of a disappointment on this issue going forward.

    Read More
    • Replies: @IHTG

    cre·du·li·ty
    krəˈd(y)o͞olədē/Submit
    noun
    a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true.
     
    https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/872775332163710976
    https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/872642307652235266
    , @MBlanc46
    Everyone must have known that curtailing immigration was going to be an uphill climb. But, after what Mr. Trump said during the campaign, I thought that he was at least going to make a real effort. Not much effort has been in evidence.
    , @Faraday's Bobcat

    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions
     
    CNN has been trying to start fights among Trump's staff for months now. First it was Bannon, then Kellyanne Conway, then Kushner, now Sessions. They want Sessions to wake up and see a story about how Trump secretly hates him and has been running him down in private, and get all angry. Pathetic.
    , @Massimo Heitor

    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions
     
    This sounds like heavily editorialized "news" designed to make Trump look bad or demoralize Trump supporters, not actual reporting of events
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
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  2. Can you pass this fun quiz?

    Read the following quote by a government official about miscegenation (the mixing of different racial groups through marriage, cohabitation, sexual relations, or procreation) and try to guess the country:

    Young people of adolescent age don’t have the systemic view that includes considerations involving maintaining the national-ethnic identity of the people and the significance of miscegenation

    __________

    Answer

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Couldn't guess the answer. Possibly because it was so obvious.
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  3. What can one say? The constituency for cheap labor is strong and shameless-racial dispossession to save $3 on a daily lift ticket. Ski slopes melting into fields!

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    But at least most of these would probably be young white European men. Not as bad as the agriculture/landscape/food service brown folks. One can even say, healthy replacement for the older white American men erasing themselves off with opioids and such.
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  4. unit472 says:

    I suppose it doesn’t occur to those unable to fill low pay low skill positions that those ‘jobs’ are not worth filling, i.e., there is no economic reason for their business to exist. The milk man, the newspaper boy and the Fuller Brush man are similar business models that just don’t work anymore.

    Read More
    • Replies: @prosa123
    "I suppose it doesn’t occur to those unable to fill low pay low skill positions that those ‘jobs’ are not worth filling, i.e., there is no economic reason for their business to exist. The milk man, the newspaper boy and the Fuller Brush man are similar business models that just don’t work anymore."

    True for those jobs, but not in the case of ski area workers. They actually are needed.
    , @Je Suis Charlie Martel
    Went to a ski resort this past winter and the workers were from Chile. They called it an internship so I asked if they were studying Hospitality. No, they weren't.
    They just watched us get on and off the lifts. They were all very European-looking Chileans, so probably upper middle class. No doubt they will get their MBAs here one day then work for Goldman or McKinsey in South America, keeping their countrymen under the yoke...
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  5. IHTG says:
    @Guy de Champlagne
    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions who was his one real anti immigration appointment, so he's probably to be even more of a disappointment on this issue going forward.

    cre·du·li·ty
    krəˈd(y)o͞olədē/Submit
    noun
    a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true.

    Read More
    • Replies: @International Jew
    I suspect the whole story was an attempt to stir up trouble -- where there was none before -- between Trump and Sessions.
    , @Thirdtwin
    And last week, the frame for Comey's testimony was " Trump will not use Executive Privilege to block Comey from testifying."
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  6. “The ski industry is wading into a political storm with a plea for the federal government to bolster its temporary visa program for foreign workers….”

    Since when is skiing an “industry”? What does this “ski industry” produce? – except for huge profits for the rentier class whose members own ski slopes and lodges.

    Read More
    • Replies: @guest
    They're using industry in the sense of trade as opposed manufacturing or processing specifically, which I consider legitimate usage. Why we should care is another matter.
    , @International Jew
    Don't underestimate the technical difficulty of moving people to the top of a mountain.

    The equipment has to be erected in terrain that, often, no earthmoving equipment can drive to: I've seen a heavy helicopter in use for that (at Squaw Valley, California, on the KT-22 run in case you want to verify).

    Afterwards, the equipment, which is exposed to extremes of temperature and wind, needs maintenance to keep it safe. The snow itself needs grooming (as, despite those GoPro clips, average skiers won't successfully negotiate a heavy "virgin" snowfall).

    In short, a ski resort is a lot more than just a mountain with snow on it.
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  7. guest says:
    @Auntie Analogue

    "The ski industry is wading into a political storm with a plea for the federal government to bolster its temporary visa program for foreign workers...."
     
    Since when is skiing an "industry"? What does this "ski industry" produce? - except for huge profits for the rentier class whose members own ski slopes and lodges.

    They’re using industry in the sense of trade as opposed manufacturing or processing specifically, which I consider legitimate usage. Why we should care is another matter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    It's been referred to as the 'ski industry' for as long as I can remember--and I started skiing in 1962.
    , @Mr. Anon

    They’re using industry in the sense of trade as opposed manufacturing or processing specifically, which I consider legitimate usage.
     
    Perhaps we shouldn't. There are other words available for such things: business,..........racket.

    There are businesses, and there are industries. They aren't the same things.

    I don't know about you, but I can't stand it when people refer to "the entertainment industry", "the gaming industry", or "the porn industry".

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  8. That’s fine, as long as they are French, German, Italian or Swiss persons with actual experience of working on Alpine slopes.

    I simply can’t believe that there is actually a shortage of labor, even at U.S. minimum wage. Being a ski-bum was a dream job for many in their late teens and twenties when I was that age. In fact, anybody who is a regular weekend skier daydreams of taking time off and living a life on the slopes. Unless American youth culture has changed a lot, I’ve got to imagine that there is still a huge potential supply of willing potential ski industry workers, as Steve implies with his headline.

    Heck, not just youths. The guy I rented a home from for a couple of years retired in his late fifties, sold the home and traded it in for a job and a small apartment in Squaw Valley.

    Read More
    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    As Jon Krakauer wrote about them once (maybe quoting someone else - it's been a while): "At both ends of the socioeconomic ladder, there is a leisure class".
    , @MBlanc46
    I'm certainly less bothered by European immigration. If America were booming, I'd say, sure bring in a few thousand to work on the slopes. But America isn't booming, so I say, Americans first. If Americans won't work for what you pay, raise wages.
    , @CJ
    Believe it or not, Whistler ski resort in British Columbia has a lot of low-paid staff from Australia, although Canada has ski bums in abundance. Part of the problem may be lack of accommodation in the Whistler area. Working is these jobs would be something like making minimum wage in Aspen, Colo. I'm not sure how many of them have previous ski experience; skiing actually does exist in parts of Australia.
    , @Neoconned
    I have an idea & im being serious.

    Some on here have highlighted the "white squatter camps" in South Africa.

    Shit, bring em here. Better than getti g killed by the ANC vengeful killers
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  9. Which part of INCREASE WAGES is so hard to understand.

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  10. Hodag says:

    Will Congress please think of the divorcees who will remain unploughed? There are some broads Americans just will not do.

    Read More
    • Agree: NickG
    • LOL: The Anti-Gnostic
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  11. Surely skifields are going to go bust across NA and Europe on a vast scale in the next generation. If you kill the middle class, and make flying so bloody awful, then people will just stop skiing. I have always been keen skier and enjoy the mountains, but stopped about 7 or 8 years ago. It was a bit like going out late drinking at night; not a conscious decision, but it just fell off my radar of choices given time / income.

    Having said that, it has occurred to my, while skiing, that it is one of the few sports we do that aliens are also likely to do. Surfing another one. Water, snow, gravity being the same across the universe. I doubt any aliens have invented cricket, for example.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "[skiing] is one of the few sports we do that aliens are also likely to do. Surfing another one."
     
    I dunno, Eskimos and Tibetans, who aren't even that alien, don't ski. And who besides Polynesians and whites surf? In a world full of coastal dwellers, there should be more: water, snow and gravity being universal constants.

    Sports start out as extreme sports, and as Steve has (somewhat hyperbolically) remarked, extreme sports are 99% white and 1% Japanese. So unless the aliens are somewhere between 99% white and 1% Japanese, maybe they don't.

    https://youtu.be/aLEjr4eg8rA
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    That's a very good point. The slow death of the middle classes in the UK and US is already taking its toll on golf courses - could ski slopes be next?

    OTOH, skiing attracts a younger crowd, who perhaps will prefer to ski twice a year and live in tiny rented apartments rather than buying a home. Young people are still taking a lot of long-haul flights.

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  12. 20-25 years ago, the climateer alarmists assured us that global warming spelled doom and downsizing–if not an end (“the end of snow”)–to the ski industry, everywhere, and soon.

    Wrong again. It’s yet another of their Armageddon predictions that fell flat on its face and that they conveniently forget. They don’t let facts get in the way of a good story or government funding for more research (on ‘settled science’).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    You clearly don't ski. Everyone in the ski industry in Europe and the East Coast is convinced global warming is real because the season has gotten much shorter over the last 30 years. Just had a ski instructor in Austria telling me exactly that.

    Of course the reality is that local snow fall doesn't really prove global climate change either way.
    , @Dieter Kief

    20-25 years ago, the climateer alarmists assured us that global warming spelled doom and downsizing–if not an end (“the end of snow”)–to the ski industry, everywhere, and soon
     
    Things look pretty clear if you look at the Black Forrest in Germany or the Toggenburg in the pre-alps of eastern Switzerland: Things have changed quite impressively. Lots of lifts and Hotels closed.

    As a rule of thumb: Ski resorts in Switzerland the base-stations of which are below 1500 meters are in big troubles now and lots (lots!) of glaciers will soon be gone.

    Not a single Swiss glacier is as big as it was hundred years ago. – If this is not global warming, there must be something else going on. And with quite an effect.
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  13. Wilkey says:

    The ski industry is struggling? Are their profits down?

    Vail Resorts (ticker: MTN) is one of the largest owners of ski resorts in the country (4 in Colorado, 1 in Utah, 3 in Lake Tahoe, etc). It closed yesterday at 210.85. It’s previous all-time (and pre-recession) high was in October 2007, when it hit 55.80. It’s net income last year was $179 million on revenues of $1.73 billion, a profit margin of 10.34%. It’s stock is up almost 60% just in the last year. Sounds like they’re really struggling.

    The wealth of billionaires is at insane highs and growing faster than almost ever before. The profit margins of businesses, both in absolute terms and as a share of GDP, are also at historic highs. But what businesses really need is for their labor to be even cheaper.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    The ski industry is struggling? Are their profits down?

    I forgot to (directly) answer my own question.

    Vail Resorts revenue by year:

    2014: $1,255 million
    2015: $1,400 million
    2016: $1,601 million

    Vail Resorts net income by year:

    2014: $29.7 million
    2015: $115.6 million
    2016: $151.0 million

    So net income for the most recent 4 quarters is almost 4 times higher than their net income for the fiscal year that ended July 31, 2014, and almost 20% higher than last fiscal year. How many Americans received 20% raises last year?

    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    I would like to see a breakdown of where the actual profits are coming from, actual Ski operations vs. Real Estate. For much of the last decade the big Resort Corporations owning the top premium ski areas have made their profits off of real estate.

    Is this another sign that another real estate bubble is around the bend this time concentrated among wealthy aging boomers competing with Asians and Mexicans looking to shelter tainted profits through purchasing luxury bolt holes???
    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    For a different take on the health of the ski industry overall see the following.

    Ski Industry Expert Says 31% of Today's Ski Areas Are Dying

    https://ski.curbed.com/2015/1/29/9997450/ski-industry-expert-says-31-of-todays-ski-areas-are-dying

    Without naming specific ski areas, Jensen said there were 10 Uber resorts and 35 Alpha resorts. Combined, these 45 ski areas account for approximately 40% of all ski business and are the only resorts with climbing revenues. These are the winners of the industry, the Intermountain West destinations close to urban centers with large lodging operations and annual earnings growing 20-30%. And while Jensen refused to talk specific ski areas, Curbed Ski won't be shy: these facts certainly sound a lot like Vail, Park City, and Whistler.

    He went on to say that there are 125 Status Quo ski areas with flat revenues, and another 150 so-called Survivor resorts who will likely do just that: survive.

    But the final group in Jensen's hierarchy of doom? One hundred and fifty Sunset resorts who simply won't make it. These ski areas may have the lifts on this season, but with declining revenues, a reliance on snow, minimal investment, and no destination traffic, the Sunset resorts are dying.
     
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  14. Prices of lift tickets at Vail and everyplace else in Colorado were no big deal when I grew up skiing there in the 1970s. In the intervening years, those prices have risen like green fees and baseball game tickets, to the point where now such outings are luxuries with costs most people have to think about.

    What has happened is the story of our country now: The borderless business class has gotten richer while the middle class has been shrunk, weakened, and replaced by a poor class that runs ski lifts and mows lawns (both jobs formerly done by young Americans of all classes).

    Lift ticket prices, adjusted for inflation, are higher than ever, but more and more ski workers are imported cheap labor.

    Even working at a hamburger joint, formerly a teenager’s first job, has become a career occupied by little, brown people with seven kids — people who now march and protest for higher minimum wages because they can’t live and grow seven kids on teenage-hamburger-flipper wages.

    Is the day of marching, protesting, brown lift operators far behind?

    This fits the whole picture of our formerly New World becoming more like the Old World: rich-and-poor, more Latin-American.

    My best and oldest friend was a ski bum for a year after college at Jackson Hole. I bet he couldn’t repeat that now if he wanted to.

    BTW Vail was always a popular place for rich Mexicans to buy vacation homes, even when I grew up skiing there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    Not sure if it's still the case (I expect it is), but some of the big Colorado resorts bus in immigrant workers daily to clean the hotels and so forth.

    The 'workers' can't afford to live local so they are housed in trailers 40, 50, 60 miles from the resort out in undesirable locales in the middle of nowhere (e.g., the outskirts of Leadville).

    Another immigration feel-good story.
    , @Peter Akuleyev

    In the intervening years, those prices have risen like green fees and baseball game tickets, to the point where now such outings are luxuries with costs most people have to think about.
     
    The operators will tell you this is due to a few things - 1. liability insurance is a major expense for a ski area 2. much like golf courses and universities, ski areas feel compelled to keep upgrading their infrastructure to keep up with the competitors. A modern high speed quad lift is certainly more expensive to install and maintain than the rickety two seat chair lift we used in the 1980s. The quality of the food offering at the US ski areas I go to is much better than it was in the 1980s, but that clearly required cap ex in better kitchens and better staff or catering. The grooming and snow making is much better, and that's also expensive - both cap ex and operating costs. As old people will tell you, we didn't even have much snow making in the 1980s because that was before global warming and there was just a lot more snow. I also suspect that the cost of capital is higher for operators because banks aren't huge fans of lending to ski areas given the high bankruptcy rate.
    , @Wilkey
    "Prices of lift tickets at Vail and everyplace else in Colorado were no big deal when I grew up skiing there in the 1970s"

    Yeah man, but that's, like, the whole supply and demand thing, like, ya know?

    When the demand for my product goes up I can like raise the price to like a million bucks.

    But if the demand for labor goes up? No way man, I shouldn't have to pay any extra! I should get the government to flood the market with cheap, foreign labor, instead!
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  15. Forbes says:
    @guest
    They're using industry in the sense of trade as opposed manufacturing or processing specifically, which I consider legitimate usage. Why we should care is another matter.

    It’s been referred to as the ‘ski industry’ for as long as I can remember–and I started skiing in 1962.

    Read More
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  16. Wilkey says:
    @Wilkey
    The ski industry is struggling? Are their profits down?

    Vail Resorts (ticker: MTN) is one of the largest owners of ski resorts in the country (4 in Colorado, 1 in Utah, 3 in Lake Tahoe, etc). It closed yesterday at 210.85. It's previous all-time (and pre-recession) high was in October 2007, when it hit 55.80. It's net income last year was $179 million on revenues of $1.73 billion, a profit margin of 10.34%. It's stock is up almost 60% just in the last year. Sounds like they're really struggling.

    The wealth of billionaires is at insane highs and growing faster than almost ever before. The profit margins of businesses, both in absolute terms and as a share of GDP, are also at historic highs. But what businesses really need is for their labor to be even cheaper.

    The ski industry is struggling? Are their profits down?

    I forgot to (directly) answer my own question.

    Vail Resorts revenue by year:

    2014: $1,255 million
    2015: $1,400 million
    2016: $1,601 million

    Vail Resorts net income by year:

    2014: $29.7 million
    2015: $115.6 million
    2016: $151.0 million

    So net income for the most recent 4 quarters is almost 4 times higher than their net income for the fiscal year that ended July 31, 2014, and almost 20% higher than last fiscal year. How many Americans received 20% raises last year?

    Read More
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  17. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @PiltdownMan
    That's fine, as long as they are French, German, Italian or Swiss persons with actual experience of working on Alpine slopes.

    I simply can't believe that there is actually a shortage of labor, even at U.S. minimum wage. Being a ski-bum was a dream job for many in their late teens and twenties when I was that age. In fact, anybody who is a regular weekend skier daydreams of taking time off and living a life on the slopes. Unless American youth culture has changed a lot, I've got to imagine that there is still a huge potential supply of willing potential ski industry workers, as Steve implies with his headline.

    Heck, not just youths. The guy I rented a home from for a couple of years retired in his late fifties, sold the home and traded it in for a job and a small apartment in Squaw Valley.

    As Jon Krakauer wrote about them once (maybe quoting someone else – it’s been a while): “At both ends of the socioeconomic ladder, there is a leisure class”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @black sea
    "At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class."
    -- Eric Beck, rock climber

    Krakauer doesn't have the wit to come up with something like that.
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  18. My personal experience has been that going to SWPL vacation spots is one of the last places where one can find the old American economy of young mainstream Americans doing menial labor to make spending cash or support an idylic lifestyle. If you go skiing in Colorado the lifties still tend to be white kids, if you go down the Jersey shore the kids serving fried clams tend to be East Coast kids going to nearby colleges who are off for the summer.

    I guess this just won’t do.

    Also the very premise of the article seems manifestly false. There’s no shortage of operational ski resorts. On the best Saturdays on long weekends in the winter you need to leave Denver at 5 AM to beat the traffic out to the front range.

    Read More
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  19. Dr. X says:

    Ticket-takers and lift operators are seasonal employees for whom availability of work is dependent upon the weather, and slopes are often located significant distances from population centers. What do they get paid? $9 or $10 an hour?

    What American would work for that? I wouldn’t. If ski resorts paid $25 or $30 an hour they’d have all the labor they needed. This is just basic economics — offer a sufficiently high wage and job security, and people will work for it. But that’s not what employers do. They’d rather game the immigration laws to import a bunch of Third World kids for whom minimum wage is a fortune.

    The older I get the more sympathetic I become to Marx. Not that I’m a communist, and not that Marx wasn’t wrong about a lot of things, but he was damned right that capital will try to rig labor markets and use government influence to screw the working class every chance they get.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Flip
    Adam Smith said the same thing.
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  20. Mr. Anon says:
    @guest
    They're using industry in the sense of trade as opposed manufacturing or processing specifically, which I consider legitimate usage. Why we should care is another matter.

    They’re using industry in the sense of trade as opposed manufacturing or processing specifically, which I consider legitimate usage.

    Perhaps we shouldn’t. There are other words available for such things: business,……….racket.

    There are businesses, and there are industries. They aren’t the same things.

    I don’t know about you, but I can’t stand it when people refer to “the entertainment industry”, “the gaming industry”, or “the porn industry”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FPD72
    Ever hear of SIC Codes? Stands for Standard INDUSTRIAL Classification Codes. Used by the federal government and many private companies to classify businesses.

    Sorry, you're in the minority on this one.
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  21. It would have been about nine years ago that I skiied in Colorado, and the assortment of young foreigners working the lifts and equipment rental was very noticeable, pretty much all of them from Eastern Europe or South America. A different collection of foreigners than those found in other settings with a lot of foreigners; none from Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean, Africa, India, Korea, China, or the Pacific Islands.

    Read More
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  22. Mr. Anon says:

    Have they tried raising the wages they pay?

    I know, I know, that’s crazy talk. That would be wrong.

    It’s illegal,…………..or something.

    Read More
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  23. President Trump’s framing of the immigration issue in terms of national security and Islamic terrorism was necessitated by President Trump’s own use of cheap foreign labor in his hotels, clubs and casinos. God bless President Trump, but he himself has said in regards to the employment of foreign cheap labor interlopers that he did what he had to from a business perspective to make a go of it.

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions was always the one who said that illegal immigration and mass legal immigration were causing the wages of American workers to stagnate or go down.

    President Trump should listen to Jeff Sessions on immigration policy.

    Read More
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  24. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Hippopotamusdrome
    Can you pass this fun quiz?

    Read the following quote by a government official about miscegenation (the mixing of different racial groups through marriage, cohabitation, sexual relations, or procreation) and try to guess the country:


    Young people of adolescent age don’t have the systemic view that includes considerations involving maintaining the national-ethnic identity of the people and the significance of miscegenation

     

    __________

    Answer

    Couldn’t guess the answer. Possibly because it was so obvious.

    Read More
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  25. @Buzz Mohawk
    Prices of lift tickets at Vail and everyplace else in Colorado were no big deal when I grew up skiing there in the 1970s. In the intervening years, those prices have risen like green fees and baseball game tickets, to the point where now such outings are luxuries with costs most people have to think about.

    What has happened is the story of our country now: The borderless business class has gotten richer while the middle class has been shrunk, weakened, and replaced by a poor class that runs ski lifts and mows lawns (both jobs formerly done by young Americans of all classes).

    Lift ticket prices, adjusted for inflation, are higher than ever, but more and more ski workers are imported cheap labor.

    Even working at a hamburger joint, formerly a teenager's first job, has become a career occupied by little, brown people with seven kids -- people who now march and protest for higher minimum wages because they can't live and grow seven kids on teenage-hamburger-flipper wages.

    Is the day of marching, protesting, brown lift operators far behind?

    This fits the whole picture of our formerly New World becoming more like the Old World: rich-and-poor, more Latin-American.

    My best and oldest friend was a ski bum for a year after college at Jackson Hole. I bet he couldn't repeat that now if he wanted to.

    BTW Vail was always a popular place for rich Mexicans to buy vacation homes, even when I grew up skiing there.

    Not sure if it’s still the case (I expect it is), but some of the big Colorado resorts bus in immigrant workers daily to clean the hotels and so forth.

    The ‘workers’ can’t afford to live local so they are housed in trailers 40, 50, 60 miles from the resort out in undesirable locales in the middle of nowhere (e.g., the outskirts of Leadville).

    Another immigration feel-good story.

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    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Some of us needed those jobs when we were students. I did everything, including campus jobs like picking up garbage, polishing floors and cooking food in a cafeteria. Now students just borrow money and go into debt while an imported servant class cleans up after them and serves them food.

    So, they're encamping them outside Leadville, huh? Whether or not a locale is desireable depends on what you're doing there. The outskirts of Leadville were a great place to hike and climb mountains. The first and second highest in Colorado are right there; I hiked to the top of each twice and camped all over them. I wonder if the Mexican serfs even care about doing things like that.

    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    Read Hal Clifford's 2003 book Downhill Slide. The H-2B and illegal workers live in rundown trailer parks outside of Vail County and survive off of state provide social services. There are lots of external costs covered by taxpayers along with crime, domestic violence, alcohol abuse and drugs.

    None of these workers will ever learn to ski, move back to the Midwest and join or even form a ski club, become a life long skier or even a instructor at their local ski hill in Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan or Minnesota. They will never raise a family of future skiers.

    I use to help run a ski club in Chicago, participated in weekend ski racing at the local hills. Met lots of boomer age avid skiers and ski club leaders who worked a semester or two at a Colorado ski resort during college or between grad school. They got hooked and spent the rest of their lives helping other get into the sport.

    That is why the demographic future is skiing is so perilous.
    , @Anonymous
    The ‘workers’ can’t afford to live local so they are housed in trailers 40, 50, 60 miles from the resort out in undesirable locales in the middle of nowhere (e.g., the outskirts of Leadville).

    I was thinking something like this might be the case. The cost of housing must be very high, and ski bums are probably not willing to live so far away and have such a long commute for a minimum wage job. They want to live close to the jobs, sharing a house or apartment with a bunch of other people splitting the rent.
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  26. TheBoom says:

    It is clear that the ski industry desperately needs the in-depth experience that Somali, Indian and Syrian ski bums can bring to the industry now that Americans no longer want to be ski bums.

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  27. The SKI INDUSTRY says it needs more cheap labor interlopers? The SKI INDUSTRY can go to hell. The SKI INDUSTRY says it needs more H-2B visa foreign workers to operate? Those damn money-grubbers can jump the hell off a cliff as far as I am concerned.

    The H-2B visa cheap labor scam presents a good opportunity to help the Trump administration get right with the American patriots that put it into office. President Trump won the presidency on the promise of putting the interests of America and the American people first in all circumstances. This is a chance for President Trump to give a mea culpa speech written by Stephen Miller that explicitly rejects the constant call for more cheap labor foreign workers from the various industries that continuously clamor for an endless supply of foreign low-wage workers.

    President Trump has acknowledged that he has used the H-2B foreign worker visa at Mar-a-Lago because it is “very, very hard to get people” to work under the seasonal work conditions at play in the golf club industry. President Trump has or has attempted to get foreign workers to prune his wine vines at his Virginia winery. (You California people might have your own Newsom winery foreign worker visa scam going too, so don’t smirk.)

    President Trump must say that he has used the foreign worker visa system, but that going forward the United States is going to cut way back on the use of foreign workers and the foreign worker visa system in the future.

    Stephen Miller could write this speech in 2 hours, and the voters who put President Trump into office would happily embrace President Trump’s mea culpa on using foreign workers. These voters would be very happy to see President Trump put the interests of American workers ahead of the interests of narrow business sectors and the interests of foreign interlopers.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
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  28. @IHTG

    cre·du·li·ty
    krəˈd(y)o͞olədē/Submit
    noun
    a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true.
     
    https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/872775332163710976
    https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/872642307652235266

    I suspect the whole story was an attempt to stir up trouble — where there was none before — between Trump and Sessions.

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    • Agree: res
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  29. @Auntie Analogue

    "The ski industry is wading into a political storm with a plea for the federal government to bolster its temporary visa program for foreign workers...."
     
    Since when is skiing an "industry"? What does this "ski industry" produce? - except for huge profits for the rentier class whose members own ski slopes and lodges.

    Don’t underestimate the technical difficulty of moving people to the top of a mountain.

    The equipment has to be erected in terrain that, often, no earthmoving equipment can drive to: I’ve seen a heavy helicopter in use for that (at Squaw Valley, California, on the KT-22 run in case you want to verify).

    Afterwards, the equipment, which is exposed to extremes of temperature and wind, needs maintenance to keep it safe. The snow itself needs grooming (as, despite those GoPro clips, average skiers won’t successfully negotiate a heavy “virgin” snowfall).

    In short, a ski resort is a lot more than just a mountain with snow on it.

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    • Replies: @Auntie Analogue

    "Don’t underestimate the technical difficulty of moving people to the top of a mountain."
     
    My dear International Jew, indeed, these days moving affluent people to the top of a mountain is so much more difficult than letting millions of Third World foreigners swarm in over our borders.
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  30. black sea says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    As Jon Krakauer wrote about them once (maybe quoting someone else - it's been a while): "At both ends of the socioeconomic ladder, there is a leisure class".

    “At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class.”
    – Eric Beck, rock climber

    Krakauer doesn’t have the wit to come up with something like that.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I read it in one of Krakauer's books of collected articles. He probably credited Beck for it there, but I don't remember -- read it ~20 years ago.
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  31. Huge, longtime iSteve fan and big ski fan. I actually, genuinely thinkskiing is one of those industries that ought to support immigration visas, at least at certain levels.

    i)at my local mountain, most are white south africans, many of whom “forget” to hop back on the airplane home. Fine by me!

    ii) skiing is hemispherical (the Austral winter is July) so for the top tier talent, it’s a 6 months in Chile/Argentina 6 months in Veil type job. If you want full time, year round employees properly dedicated to craft (either in managing snow making, which is extraordinarily complex, teaching skiing at high levels etc) that’s the breaks. No one from the Professional tier who could do better would sign for a 5 month job w unemployment as severance.

    iii) skiing *IS* a dying industry. The above poster who put the 3 year growth of Vail doesn’t follow the industry. The average age of a skier has increased as well. It is a boomer/gen X sport, and Gen Y and younger have simply not followed them onto the slopes. The average age of a skier is now 38. Every ski business I know (and I work in this capacity) is focusing on their transition into a boutique niche role. Everyone who is anyone is in a “revenue maximizing” not “growth maximizing” phase, NO ONE expects growth in the future.
    Snowboarding, a plausible injection of a different constituency into the same sphere, has been a dud

    http://www.denverpost.com/2012/05/11/snowboarding-numbers-trending-downhill-3/

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    • Agree: Peter Akuleyev
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    ii) skiing is hemispherical (the Austral winter is July) so for the top tier talent, it’s a 6 months in Chile/Argentina 6 months in Veil type job. If you want full time, year round employees properly dedicated to craft (either in managing snow making, which is extraordinarily complex, teaching skiing at high levels etc) that’s the breaks. No one from the Professional tier who could do better would sign for a 5 month job w unemployment as severance.

    How is this an argument in favor of immigration?
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    skiing *IS* a dying industry. ... The average age of a skier is now 38

     

    Then it would be stupid to import a bunch of immigrants to prop up an industry that will just keep shrinking. Unless the immigrants are going to learn to ski.
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  32. Camlost says:

    I’m all for increasing the H2 cap by 70,000 if every single one of them is one of those young Polish or Serbian girls you always see working for the resorts or cruise lines in Florida.

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  33. Unemployment may, for all I know, indeed be low in Vail, Colorado. But it’s high in some other places. As Steve pointed out recently, in a piece about news that Americans aren’t moving around the country as much as they used to: there’s no point to moving, if immigrants are airdropped to take all the opportunities.

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  34. @International Jew
    Don't underestimate the technical difficulty of moving people to the top of a mountain.

    The equipment has to be erected in terrain that, often, no earthmoving equipment can drive to: I've seen a heavy helicopter in use for that (at Squaw Valley, California, on the KT-22 run in case you want to verify).

    Afterwards, the equipment, which is exposed to extremes of temperature and wind, needs maintenance to keep it safe. The snow itself needs grooming (as, despite those GoPro clips, average skiers won't successfully negotiate a heavy "virgin" snowfall).

    In short, a ski resort is a lot more than just a mountain with snow on it.

    “Don’t underestimate the technical difficulty of moving people to the top of a mountain.”

    My dear International Jew, indeed, these days moving affluent people to the top of a mountain is so much more difficult than letting millions of Third World foreigners swarm in over our borders.

    Read More
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  35. @Buck Turgidson
    Not sure if it's still the case (I expect it is), but some of the big Colorado resorts bus in immigrant workers daily to clean the hotels and so forth.

    The 'workers' can't afford to live local so they are housed in trailers 40, 50, 60 miles from the resort out in undesirable locales in the middle of nowhere (e.g., the outskirts of Leadville).

    Another immigration feel-good story.

    Some of us needed those jobs when we were students. I did everything, including campus jobs like picking up garbage, polishing floors and cooking food in a cafeteria. Now students just borrow money and go into debt while an imported servant class cleans up after them and serves them food.

    So, they’re encamping them outside Leadville, huh? Whether or not a locale is desireable depends on what you’re doing there. The outskirts of Leadville were a great place to hike and climb mountains. The first and second highest in Colorado are right there; I hiked to the top of each twice and camped all over them. I wonder if the Mexican serfs even care about doing things like that.

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    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    Sure, the outskirts of Leadville have their charm, for some. I have similar Colorado 14er / backpacking experiences. I saw an immigrant hovel of trailers just N of Leadville off Highway 24 years ago. It's a long way to Vail. Not posh and wouldn't be my first choice of home address. I bagged Elbert a few years ago--no Latin Americans in sight there, nor have I ever seen one on any other high-altitude trails & routes across w CO.
    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    Now students just borrow money and go into debt while an imported servant class cleans up after them and serves them food.

    Another issue is that young people are simply in horrible physical shape compared to their parent's generation. Skiing requires a level of fitness that a kid raised on fast food, video games, internet porn and legalized pot can not deal with.

    Acquaintances of mine who worked at ski resorts in the 70-80s would tell me that Colorado colleges had some lefty betas and pot heads back then, there were lots of kids who were in shape and worked at the resorts whenever possible.

    Ever see photos of 4-20 at Colorado colleges nowadays??? It is disgusting.
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  36. @Buck Turgidson
    20-25 years ago, the climateer alarmists assured us that global warming spelled doom and downsizing--if not an end ("the end of snow")--to the ski industry, everywhere, and soon.

    Wrong again. It's yet another of their Armageddon predictions that fell flat on its face and that they conveniently forget. They don't let facts get in the way of a good story or government funding for more research (on 'settled science').

    You clearly don’t ski. Everyone in the ski industry in Europe and the East Coast is convinced global warming is real because the season has gotten much shorter over the last 30 years. Just had a ski instructor in Austria telling me exactly that.

    Of course the reality is that local snow fall doesn’t really prove global climate change either way.

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    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    I've been skiing since about 1992 and have never heard global warming come up. They talk about lift prices, new shaped skis, technology, market share, snow quality. I always ask questions because I want to know what successful businesses do.

    As to the length of the ski season, that's not weather-dependent, it's customer-dependent. One year (2011 maybe?) I asked my favorite resort why they were closing in April when there was still tons of snow. The reply was because the skiers weren't coming. By April the people who ski are off doing other activities.... surfing, traveling, boating. Squaw Valley will stay open late this year (it's still getting snow! but you only get one lift), but the other places are all closed.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    Believe it or not, there was a big resort development (Aviemore) built in Scotland in the 1970s when snowfall was high in the Cairngorms. Even into summer there would be a lot on the summits. The hotels have been sold off and the ice rink was derelict last time I was there.

    On Ben Nevis (4,400 feet) in August 1973 I can recall the snowline was about 1500 feet, well below zero at the summit - in August! There's no doubt at all that winters were longer and colder then.

    In Europe and Iceland glaciers have been in retreat over the last 40 years.


    (Nordics had been sliding around on skis for millennia before wealthy Brits had the idea just to go downhill on them for fun)

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  37. People who go to ski in Vermont are generally on vacation, and they want to experience “Vermont”, which means they want well-mannered white people waiting on them. The local middle class kids don’t work seasonal jobs anymore because they are trying to find interesting internships to beef up their resumes. The lower class kids are strung out on heroin and unreliable. You can’t bus LaWanda and Carlos in from the inner city because rich New Yorkers didn’t drive 3oo miles and spend thousands of dollars to get the same half surly service they can get back home. The only way Vermont can present a ” traditional Vermont face” is by importing white kids from Slovakia, Serbia and Slovenia. Such is business in a globalized world.

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  38. @Buzz Mohawk
    Prices of lift tickets at Vail and everyplace else in Colorado were no big deal when I grew up skiing there in the 1970s. In the intervening years, those prices have risen like green fees and baseball game tickets, to the point where now such outings are luxuries with costs most people have to think about.

    What has happened is the story of our country now: The borderless business class has gotten richer while the middle class has been shrunk, weakened, and replaced by a poor class that runs ski lifts and mows lawns (both jobs formerly done by young Americans of all classes).

    Lift ticket prices, adjusted for inflation, are higher than ever, but more and more ski workers are imported cheap labor.

    Even working at a hamburger joint, formerly a teenager's first job, has become a career occupied by little, brown people with seven kids -- people who now march and protest for higher minimum wages because they can't live and grow seven kids on teenage-hamburger-flipper wages.

    Is the day of marching, protesting, brown lift operators far behind?

    This fits the whole picture of our formerly New World becoming more like the Old World: rich-and-poor, more Latin-American.

    My best and oldest friend was a ski bum for a year after college at Jackson Hole. I bet he couldn't repeat that now if he wanted to.

    BTW Vail was always a popular place for rich Mexicans to buy vacation homes, even when I grew up skiing there.

    In the intervening years, those prices have risen like green fees and baseball game tickets, to the point where now such outings are luxuries with costs most people have to think about.

    The operators will tell you this is due to a few things – 1. liability insurance is a major expense for a ski area 2. much like golf courses and universities, ski areas feel compelled to keep upgrading their infrastructure to keep up with the competitors. A modern high speed quad lift is certainly more expensive to install and maintain than the rickety two seat chair lift we used in the 1980s. The quality of the food offering at the US ski areas I go to is much better than it was in the 1980s, but that clearly required cap ex in better kitchens and better staff or catering. The grooming and snow making is much better, and that’s also expensive – both cap ex and operating costs. As old people will tell you, we didn’t even have much snow making in the 1980s because that was before global warming and there was just a lot more snow. I also suspect that the cost of capital is higher for operators because banks aren’t huge fans of lending to ski areas given the high bankruptcy rate.

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    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    You're probably right, of course, but...

    That's all just more data about how things have changed.

    Even though I grew up skiiing at places like Vail, my father preferred to avoid them. He first took me to skiing lessons at Arapahoe Basin, the highest ski area in the United States, an hour drive from our house, where we went more often than anyplace else. Dad hated pretense, even though he could afford it. He was an old, Sierra Nevada skier from the days of wooden skis, broken legs (he got one then) and hiking up a mountain where there were no lifts. A rope tow was more common than a chairlift.

    Dad was scheduled as a volunteer on the ski patrol at the 1960 Winter Olympics at Squaw Valley, but my early birth forced him to stay home instead. Fortunately, He never blamed me for that.

    So I grew up skiing at high altitudes instead of eating food in fancy lodges and riding gondolas. I thank Dad for that.

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  39. @Peter Akuleyev

    In the intervening years, those prices have risen like green fees and baseball game tickets, to the point where now such outings are luxuries with costs most people have to think about.
     
    The operators will tell you this is due to a few things - 1. liability insurance is a major expense for a ski area 2. much like golf courses and universities, ski areas feel compelled to keep upgrading their infrastructure to keep up with the competitors. A modern high speed quad lift is certainly more expensive to install and maintain than the rickety two seat chair lift we used in the 1980s. The quality of the food offering at the US ski areas I go to is much better than it was in the 1980s, but that clearly required cap ex in better kitchens and better staff or catering. The grooming and snow making is much better, and that's also expensive - both cap ex and operating costs. As old people will tell you, we didn't even have much snow making in the 1980s because that was before global warming and there was just a lot more snow. I also suspect that the cost of capital is higher for operators because banks aren't huge fans of lending to ski areas given the high bankruptcy rate.

    You’re probably right, of course, but…

    That’s all just more data about how things have changed.

    Even though I grew up skiiing at places like Vail, my father preferred to avoid them. He first took me to skiing lessons at Arapahoe Basin, the highest ski area in the United States, an hour drive from our house, where we went more often than anyplace else. Dad hated pretense, even though he could afford it. He was an old, Sierra Nevada skier from the days of wooden skis, broken legs (he got one then) and hiking up a mountain where there were no lifts. A rope tow was more common than a chairlift.

    Dad was scheduled as a volunteer on the ski patrol at the 1960 Winter Olympics at Squaw Valley, but my early birth forced him to stay home instead. Fortunately, He never blamed me for that.

    So I grew up skiing at high altitudes instead of eating food in fancy lodges and riding gondolas. I thank Dad for that.

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  40. @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    Huge, longtime iSteve fan and big ski fan. I actually, genuinely thinkskiing is one of those industries that ought to support immigration visas, at least at certain levels.

    i)at my local mountain, most are white south africans, many of whom "forget" to hop back on the airplane home. Fine by me!

    ii) skiing is hemispherical (the Austral winter is July) so for the top tier talent, it's a 6 months in Chile/Argentina 6 months in Veil type job. If you want full time, year round employees properly dedicated to craft (either in managing snow making, which is extraordinarily complex, teaching skiing at high levels etc) that's the breaks. No one from the Professional tier who could do better would sign for a 5 month job w unemployment as severance.

    iii) skiing *IS* a dying industry. The above poster who put the 3 year growth of Vail doesn't follow the industry. The average age of a skier has increased as well. It is a boomer/gen X sport, and Gen Y and younger have simply not followed them onto the slopes. The average age of a skier is now 38. Every ski business I know (and I work in this capacity) is focusing on their transition into a boutique niche role. Everyone who is anyone is in a "revenue maximizing" not "growth maximizing" phase, NO ONE expects growth in the future.
    Snowboarding, a plausible injection of a different constituency into the same sphere, has been a dud
    http://www.denverpost.com/2012/05/11/snowboarding-numbers-trending-downhill-3/

    ii) skiing is hemispherical (the Austral winter is July) so for the top tier talent, it’s a 6 months in Chile/Argentina 6 months in Veil type job. If you want full time, year round employees properly dedicated to craft (either in managing snow making, which is extraordinarily complex, teaching skiing at high levels etc) that’s the breaks. No one from the Professional tier who could do better would sign for a 5 month job w unemployment as severance.

    How is this an argument in favor of immigration?

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    There might be a argument for importing the top 10-20% of recognized certified ski instructors to help expand the sport worldwide. But that is not what is happening. But there are other visa programs specifically for that purpose, namely the H1-B and O programs. Skiing is much more limited in the Southern Hemisphere. International OZ and Kiwi instructors have been around for decades and have their place. Also it was common for down under college graduates to take a year off and work at various ski and golf resorts since the 1960s. That is not what is going on.

    If the Ski industry does not get enough H-2Bs then they just hire illegals. The local politicians and police look the other way.
    , @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    For positions like "lift monkey", it's not. But for boutique slots like "ski school manager" and "director of snow making", the world class pool you draw from is "6 months here, 6 months there".
    I think a lot of these boutique jobs are similar to ballerinas, opera stars and sports talent.
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  41. @Wilkey
    The ski industry is struggling? Are their profits down?

    Vail Resorts (ticker: MTN) is one of the largest owners of ski resorts in the country (4 in Colorado, 1 in Utah, 3 in Lake Tahoe, etc). It closed yesterday at 210.85. It's previous all-time (and pre-recession) high was in October 2007, when it hit 55.80. It's net income last year was $179 million on revenues of $1.73 billion, a profit margin of 10.34%. It's stock is up almost 60% just in the last year. Sounds like they're really struggling.

    The wealth of billionaires is at insane highs and growing faster than almost ever before. The profit margins of businesses, both in absolute terms and as a share of GDP, are also at historic highs. But what businesses really need is for their labor to be even cheaper.

    I would like to see a breakdown of where the actual profits are coming from, actual Ski operations vs. Real Estate. For much of the last decade the big Resort Corporations owning the top premium ski areas have made their profits off of real estate.

    Is this another sign that another real estate bubble is around the bend this time concentrated among wealthy aging boomers competing with Asians and Mexicans looking to shelter tainted profits through purchasing luxury bolt holes???

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    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "I would like to see a breakdown of where the actual profits are coming from, actual Ski operations vs. Real Estate. For much of the last decade the big Resort Corporations owning the top premium ski areas have made their profits off of real estate."

    The press release itself makes pretty clear that it is the big, profitable resorts that are professing a labor shortage. In my experience those are the places where you are most likely to encounter foreign workers - more in the lodges than as lift personnel. The ski resorts which cater to locals are staffed entirely by locals - or at least by American ski bums.
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  42. @Wilkey
    The ski industry is struggling? Are their profits down?

    Vail Resorts (ticker: MTN) is one of the largest owners of ski resorts in the country (4 in Colorado, 1 in Utah, 3 in Lake Tahoe, etc). It closed yesterday at 210.85. It's previous all-time (and pre-recession) high was in October 2007, when it hit 55.80. It's net income last year was $179 million on revenues of $1.73 billion, a profit margin of 10.34%. It's stock is up almost 60% just in the last year. Sounds like they're really struggling.

    The wealth of billionaires is at insane highs and growing faster than almost ever before. The profit margins of businesses, both in absolute terms and as a share of GDP, are also at historic highs. But what businesses really need is for their labor to be even cheaper.

    For a different take on the health of the ski industry overall see the following.

    Ski Industry Expert Says 31% of Today’s Ski Areas Are Dying

    https://ski.curbed.com/2015/1/29/9997450/ski-industry-expert-says-31-of-todays-ski-areas-are-dying

    Without naming specific ski areas, Jensen said there were 10 Uber resorts and 35 Alpha resorts. Combined, these 45 ski areas account for approximately 40% of all ski business and are the only resorts with climbing revenues. These are the winners of the industry, the Intermountain West destinations close to urban centers with large lodging operations and annual earnings growing 20-30%. And while Jensen refused to talk specific ski areas, Curbed Ski won’t be shy: these facts certainly sound a lot like Vail, Park City, and Whistler.

    He went on to say that there are 125 Status Quo ski areas with flat revenues, and another 150 so-called Survivor resorts who will likely do just that: survive.

    But the final group in Jensen’s hierarchy of doom? One hundred and fifty Sunset resorts who simply won’t make it. These ski areas may have the lifts on this season, but with declining revenues, a reliance on snow, minimal investment, and no destination traffic, the Sunset resorts are dying.

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    The article above states that the top 30 or so destination ski areas near Denver, Vancouver, Salt Lake etc... are thriving. I think real estate and a locked in wealthy timeshare clientele is a big reason for this.

    Most of the 2nd and third tier resort ski areas are on National Park Service land and have limited real estate development potential and are farther from major airports. These areas were far more dependent on Ski clubs, budget conscious and avid skiers looking for a different experience.

    They are struggling and the future is bleak as "Skiing Alone" becomes the norm for an increasingly isolated and pressured middle class.
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  43. Skiing is like farming in that there used to be tons of mom-and-pop mountains, offering “small” amenities at small prices.
    One after another, the small ones went out of business. Locally, there was a ski mountain located right next to a local outpost of Directional State. The College prided itself on it’s winter/ski spirit and the mountain enjoyed the labor and good hearted ambiance. THEY went under.
    Many ski mountains (in New England, at least) are an odd mix of public and private. There are county owned, state owned and town owned ski mountains. Those can stay afloat because their finances are bolstered by other civil incomes. But increasingly it’s Be Big or Be Gone

    This is so apparent that there’s entire websights devoted to cataloging defunct ski mountains, for nostalgia and for ambitious go-getters to hike them for free

    http://www.nelsap.org/

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "Be Big or Be Gone"
     
    Because the Big Players have the political connections to get all the infrastructure they need to keep the flow of business coming through their doors as well as tax breaks mom and pop could only dream of. Oh, yeah ... and a stream of foreign slave labor who will do the jobs the American kids won't do because they can borrow more on their student loans to go to Cancun, where it isn't so f'ing cold.
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  44. @Peter Akuleyev
    You clearly don't ski. Everyone in the ski industry in Europe and the East Coast is convinced global warming is real because the season has gotten much shorter over the last 30 years. Just had a ski instructor in Austria telling me exactly that.

    Of course the reality is that local snow fall doesn't really prove global climate change either way.

    I’ve been skiing since about 1992 and have never heard global warming come up. They talk about lift prices, new shaped skis, technology, market share, snow quality. I always ask questions because I want to know what successful businesses do.

    As to the length of the ski season, that’s not weather-dependent, it’s customer-dependent. One year (2011 maybe?) I asked my favorite resort why they were closing in April when there was still tons of snow. The reply was because the skiers weren’t coming. By April the people who ski are off doing other activities…. surfing, traveling, boating. Squaw Valley will stay open late this year (it’s still getting snow! but you only get one lift), but the other places are all closed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    Use to be that lots of middle and even working Mid-Westerns would go skiing in late March when their kids were on spring break and the lift tickets were at spring skiing prices.

    Even late season May skiing when the kids were out of school was popular. But now some kids do not get out of school til early June.

    But again this is all in decline as America kills off its fly-over country middle class. And as I have said lots of Mid-Westerners nowadays never had the opportunities their parents had to be a "Ski-Bum" working 60 hours a week at a resort and getting a few runs in between shifts and late nights at the bars.

    I knew a very active ski couple and family who ever year would fight over where our ski club should go for spring skiing because they first met while working at the Colorado resort while in college and desperately want to go back there as often as possible.
    , @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    "I asked my favorite resort why they were closing in April when there was still tons of snow. The reply was because the skiers weren’t coming"

    This is a HUGE complaint the ski industry has.
    In NH and VT it is *NOT* the weather in NH and VT that matters, but the weather in Metro Boston. If people in Metro Boston look out their window and see their snow has melted, they assume it's the same in NH/VT, despite the fact that the ski mountains are a hundred miles north and at significant elevation.
    You see this also w rain. If it's raining in Boston the slopes will be empty in NH, despite the fact that it's snowing in NH when it's raining in Boston.
    One of the constant hurdles for ad/marketing is getting people past that, but it's almost intractable
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  45. MBlanc46 says:
    @Guy de Champlagne
    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions who was his one real anti immigration appointment, so he's probably to be even more of a disappointment on this issue going forward.

    Everyone must have known that curtailing immigration was going to be an uphill climb. But, after what Mr. Trump said during the campaign, I thought that he was at least going to make a real effort. Not much effort has been in evidence.

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  46. @Buzz Mohawk
    Some of us needed those jobs when we were students. I did everything, including campus jobs like picking up garbage, polishing floors and cooking food in a cafeteria. Now students just borrow money and go into debt while an imported servant class cleans up after them and serves them food.

    So, they're encamping them outside Leadville, huh? Whether or not a locale is desireable depends on what you're doing there. The outskirts of Leadville were a great place to hike and climb mountains. The first and second highest in Colorado are right there; I hiked to the top of each twice and camped all over them. I wonder if the Mexican serfs even care about doing things like that.

    Sure, the outskirts of Leadville have their charm, for some. I have similar Colorado 14er / backpacking experiences. I saw an immigrant hovel of trailers just N of Leadville off Highway 24 years ago. It’s a long way to Vail. Not posh and wouldn’t be my first choice of home address. I bagged Elbert a few years ago–no Latin Americans in sight there, nor have I ever seen one on any other high-altitude trails & routes across w CO.

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  47. @Buck Turgidson
    Not sure if it's still the case (I expect it is), but some of the big Colorado resorts bus in immigrant workers daily to clean the hotels and so forth.

    The 'workers' can't afford to live local so they are housed in trailers 40, 50, 60 miles from the resort out in undesirable locales in the middle of nowhere (e.g., the outskirts of Leadville).

    Another immigration feel-good story.

    Read Hal Clifford’s 2003 book Downhill Slide. The H-2B and illegal workers live in rundown trailer parks outside of Vail County and survive off of state provide social services. There are lots of external costs covered by taxpayers along with crime, domestic violence, alcohol abuse and drugs.

    None of these workers will ever learn to ski, move back to the Midwest and join or even form a ski club, become a life long skier or even a instructor at their local ski hill in Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan or Minnesota. They will never raise a family of future skiers.

    I use to help run a ski club in Chicago, participated in weekend ski racing at the local hills. Met lots of boomer age avid skiers and ski club leaders who worked a semester or two at a Colorado ski resort during college or between grad school. They got hooked and spent the rest of their lives helping other get into the sport.

    That is why the demographic future is skiing is so perilous.

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  48. @Opinionator
    ii) skiing is hemispherical (the Austral winter is July) so for the top tier talent, it’s a 6 months in Chile/Argentina 6 months in Veil type job. If you want full time, year round employees properly dedicated to craft (either in managing snow making, which is extraordinarily complex, teaching skiing at high levels etc) that’s the breaks. No one from the Professional tier who could do better would sign for a 5 month job w unemployment as severance.

    How is this an argument in favor of immigration?

    There might be a argument for importing the top 10-20% of recognized certified ski instructors to help expand the sport worldwide. But that is not what is happening. But there are other visa programs specifically for that purpose, namely the H1-B and O programs. Skiing is much more limited in the Southern Hemisphere. International OZ and Kiwi instructors have been around for decades and have their place. Also it was common for down under college graduates to take a year off and work at various ski and golf resorts since the 1960s. That is not what is going on.

    If the Ski industry does not get enough H-2Bs then they just hire illegals. The local politicians and police look the other way.

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  49. @Buck Turgidson
    20-25 years ago, the climateer alarmists assured us that global warming spelled doom and downsizing--if not an end ("the end of snow")--to the ski industry, everywhere, and soon.

    Wrong again. It's yet another of their Armageddon predictions that fell flat on its face and that they conveniently forget. They don't let facts get in the way of a good story or government funding for more research (on 'settled science').

    20-25 years ago, the climateer alarmists assured us that global warming spelled doom and downsizing–if not an end (“the end of snow”)–to the ski industry, everywhere, and soon

    Things look pretty clear if you look at the Black Forrest in Germany or the Toggenburg in the pre-alps of eastern Switzerland: Things have changed quite impressively. Lots of lifts and Hotels closed.

    As a rule of thumb: Ski resorts in Switzerland the base-stations of which are below 1500 meters are in big troubles now and lots (lots!) of glaciers will soon be gone.

    Not a single Swiss glacier is as big as it was hundred years ago. – If this is not global warming, there must be something else going on. And with quite an effect.

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    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    Those are a couple of spots. As to what is happening, it is called "climate." It never is static, some areas are in warming trends, others in cooler cycles. It ebbs and flows all the time.

    The warmists/gloom and doomers never say that (not accusing you of being one). The whole thing is collapsing and we all are doomed. Everywhere. Any day now.

    Ski resorts in California will be open until July this year.


    The proclamation was not that there would be some closings here, and there. It was the end of snow, the whole industry was doomed.

    , @Lurker
    The retreat after the Little Ice Age?
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  50. @Buzz Mohawk
    Some of us needed those jobs when we were students. I did everything, including campus jobs like picking up garbage, polishing floors and cooking food in a cafeteria. Now students just borrow money and go into debt while an imported servant class cleans up after them and serves them food.

    So, they're encamping them outside Leadville, huh? Whether or not a locale is desireable depends on what you're doing there. The outskirts of Leadville were a great place to hike and climb mountains. The first and second highest in Colorado are right there; I hiked to the top of each twice and camped all over them. I wonder if the Mexican serfs even care about doing things like that.

    Now students just borrow money and go into debt while an imported servant class cleans up after them and serves them food.

    Another issue is that young people are simply in horrible physical shape compared to their parent’s generation. Skiing requires a level of fitness that a kid raised on fast food, video games, internet porn and legalized pot can not deal with.

    Acquaintances of mine who worked at ski resorts in the 70-80s would tell me that Colorado colleges had some lefty betas and pot heads back then, there were lots of kids who were in shape and worked at the resorts whenever possible.

    Ever see photos of 4-20 at Colorado colleges nowadays??? It is disgusting.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What's 4-20?
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  51. MBlanc46 says:
    @PiltdownMan
    That's fine, as long as they are French, German, Italian or Swiss persons with actual experience of working on Alpine slopes.

    I simply can't believe that there is actually a shortage of labor, even at U.S. minimum wage. Being a ski-bum was a dream job for many in their late teens and twenties when I was that age. In fact, anybody who is a regular weekend skier daydreams of taking time off and living a life on the slopes. Unless American youth culture has changed a lot, I've got to imagine that there is still a huge potential supply of willing potential ski industry workers, as Steve implies with his headline.

    Heck, not just youths. The guy I rented a home from for a couple of years retired in his late fifties, sold the home and traded it in for a job and a small apartment in Squaw Valley.

    I’m certainly less bothered by European immigration. If America were booming, I’d say, sure bring in a few thousand to work on the slopes. But America isn’t booming, so I say, Americans first. If Americans won’t work for what you pay, raise wages.

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  52. @Formerly CARealist
    I've been skiing since about 1992 and have never heard global warming come up. They talk about lift prices, new shaped skis, technology, market share, snow quality. I always ask questions because I want to know what successful businesses do.

    As to the length of the ski season, that's not weather-dependent, it's customer-dependent. One year (2011 maybe?) I asked my favorite resort why they were closing in April when there was still tons of snow. The reply was because the skiers weren't coming. By April the people who ski are off doing other activities.... surfing, traveling, boating. Squaw Valley will stay open late this year (it's still getting snow! but you only get one lift), but the other places are all closed.

    Use to be that lots of middle and even working Mid-Westerns would go skiing in late March when their kids were on spring break and the lift tickets were at spring skiing prices.

    Even late season May skiing when the kids were out of school was popular. But now some kids do not get out of school til early June.

    But again this is all in decline as America kills off its fly-over country middle class. And as I have said lots of Mid-Westerners nowadays never had the opportunities their parents had to be a “Ski-Bum” working 60 hours a week at a resort and getting a few runs in between shifts and late nights at the bars.

    I knew a very active ski couple and family who ever year would fight over where our ski club should go for spring skiing because they first met while working at the Colorado resort while in college and desperately want to go back there as often as possible.

    Read More
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  53. Flip says:
    @Dr. X
    Ticket-takers and lift operators are seasonal employees for whom availability of work is dependent upon the weather, and slopes are often located significant distances from population centers. What do they get paid? $9 or $10 an hour?

    What American would work for that? I wouldn't. If ski resorts paid $25 or $30 an hour they'd have all the labor they needed. This is just basic economics -- offer a sufficiently high wage and job security, and people will work for it. But that's not what employers do. They'd rather game the immigration laws to import a bunch of Third World kids for whom minimum wage is a fortune.

    The older I get the more sympathetic I become to Marx. Not that I'm a communist, and not that Marx wasn't wrong about a lot of things, but he was damned right that capital will try to rig labor markets and use government influence to screw the working class every chance they get.

    Adam Smith said the same thing.

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  54. Steve,

    Do you remember a Rich or maybe Rick Sanchez, not the CNN host who famously ran afoul of the TWMNBN, who use to contribute to VDARE years ago???

    He was a former Electrical Engineer until H-1Bed from El Paso, living in Arizona and I guess was a skier as well.

    Every year he would go on the old George Putnam, now Chuck Wilder, radio show and read the latest labor shortage shouting peons to the Ski Industry bigwigs from the now defunct Rocky Mountain Times and Denver Post.

    He was a great guy and I missed talking to him on the radio.

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  55. One last consequence of hiring H-2Bs and illegals for food service and housekeeping is that the major resorts are mostly dead as far as night life goes, except maybe for the most elite clubs that have doormen to keep the workers along middle class and prole skiers out.

    At most resorts at least what under payed American staff they may have has to slump back to a town 20-30 miles from the ski hill to enjoy some entertainment.

    In order to maximize real estate profits the major resorts torn down all of their close by accommodations for staff decades ago along with most budget hotels . That means that workers and younger folks have to catch a bus back to a town miles away.

    Ski areas that once had lots of healthy young people roaming the streets are often dead at night.

    Young man, thinking about running into that pretty blond girl who might have served you a hamburger at lunch? Dream on……..

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    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @ATBOTL
    One of the best comments I've read in a while. This absence of young, fun white Americans from resort and leisure settings is one of most creepy and pathetic things about modern globalized cuckmerica.

    You have so many bars, even "nightclubs" in these places now that are mostly empty on a Sat. night, with only a few old people plus maybe some Asian or Middle Eastern immigrants and an all third world staff. They have the atmosphere of a funeral reception. Don't the boomers notice this?

    This is such a worthless society, it's going down harder than old people realize.
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  56. @anonymous-antimarxist
    For a different take on the health of the ski industry overall see the following.

    Ski Industry Expert Says 31% of Today's Ski Areas Are Dying

    https://ski.curbed.com/2015/1/29/9997450/ski-industry-expert-says-31-of-todays-ski-areas-are-dying

    Without naming specific ski areas, Jensen said there were 10 Uber resorts and 35 Alpha resorts. Combined, these 45 ski areas account for approximately 40% of all ski business and are the only resorts with climbing revenues. These are the winners of the industry, the Intermountain West destinations close to urban centers with large lodging operations and annual earnings growing 20-30%. And while Jensen refused to talk specific ski areas, Curbed Ski won't be shy: these facts certainly sound a lot like Vail, Park City, and Whistler.

    He went on to say that there are 125 Status Quo ski areas with flat revenues, and another 150 so-called Survivor resorts who will likely do just that: survive.

    But the final group in Jensen's hierarchy of doom? One hundred and fifty Sunset resorts who simply won't make it. These ski areas may have the lifts on this season, but with declining revenues, a reliance on snow, minimal investment, and no destination traffic, the Sunset resorts are dying.
     

    The article above states that the top 30 or so destination ski areas near Denver, Vancouver, Salt Lake etc… are thriving. I think real estate and a locked in wealthy timeshare clientele is a big reason for this.

    Most of the 2nd and third tier resort ski areas are on National Park Service land and have limited real estate development potential and are farther from major airports. These areas were far more dependent on Ski clubs, budget conscious and avid skiers looking for a different experience.

    They are struggling and the future is bleak as “Skiing Alone” becomes the norm for an increasingly isolated and pressured middle class.

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  57. I was a certified ski bum (professional ski patrol; ie, full-time job) for ten years and I saw first-hand all that is wrong in the ski industry (yes, industry, including heavy equipment manufacturing–groomers, lifts–and ski equipment).

    As a patroller, I worked with some of the most highly-trained and experienced outdoor pros you’ll ever meet. We provided emergency medical care, rescue and evacuation in some very dangerous places. We also performed avalanche mitigation, which requires experience with high-explosives and a knowledge of mountain, weather and snow dynamics that would make a you cry. And yes, there were days at work when you couldn’t believe you were getting paid, there were many other days when you went out in conditions that no sane person would consider.

    The problem with that job, as it is the problem with all the jobs in that industry is that it takes years just to become proficient, and many more to become an “expert”. It is important to retain the good people, but after 10 years at it and getting up to the point where I was regularly training new patrollers, I was maxed out at just over $12/hour. There were also no sick days available (seasonal work rarely has them) and it took a few years on the job before qualifying for health insurance. A bit of a problem with the high injury rates.

    After marrying and having a child, there was simply no option but to leave it behind and find more steady and better paying work. In fact, after many years there it became obvious that the only family folks who were able to stay were the ones with spouses with high-paying jobs (who were willing to support them) or who had lucrative summer jobs (very rare).

    It’s a tough time for anyone in that industry, but they do it (or more importantly, stay with it after a season or two) because they love the job, the working environment and the perks. Unfortunately, most of the ski areas are now owned by massive corporations that only see the bottom line and would rather import cheap foreign labor than retain talented locals that truly love the work.

    As for ski patrol, it wouldn’t matter how much the pay increased, as the sheer physical brutality and discomfort of the job would (and does) weed out most people who try it. Increased pay and benefits would simply help the talented folks stay at it longer.

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    • Replies: @EriK
    A cousin of mine moved to Colorado after high school and worked at ski areas for five years. He loved it but had to move on for the reasons you mentioned.
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  58. FPD72 says:
    @Mr. Anon

    They’re using industry in the sense of trade as opposed manufacturing or processing specifically, which I consider legitimate usage.
     
    Perhaps we shouldn't. There are other words available for such things: business,..........racket.

    There are businesses, and there are industries. They aren't the same things.

    I don't know about you, but I can't stand it when people refer to "the entertainment industry", "the gaming industry", or "the porn industry".

    Ever hear of SIC Codes? Stands for Standard INDUSTRIAL Classification Codes. Used by the federal government and many private companies to classify businesses.

    Sorry, you’re in the minority on this one.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Ever hear of SIC Codes? Stands for Standard INDUSTRIAL Classification Codes. Used by the federal government and many private companies to classify businesses.
     
    So? Doesn't make it right. I don't care what you think. Porn is not an "industry".
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  59. J1234 says:

    Maybe someone could hire the Jamaican bobsled team, too.

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  60. “We can’t find seasonal workers at the crappy wages we want to pay.”

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  61. @Opinionator
    ii) skiing is hemispherical (the Austral winter is July) so for the top tier talent, it’s a 6 months in Chile/Argentina 6 months in Veil type job. If you want full time, year round employees properly dedicated to craft (either in managing snow making, which is extraordinarily complex, teaching skiing at high levels etc) that’s the breaks. No one from the Professional tier who could do better would sign for a 5 month job w unemployment as severance.

    How is this an argument in favor of immigration?

    For positions like “lift monkey”, it’s not. But for boutique slots like “ski school manager” and “director of snow making”, the world class pool you draw from is “6 months here, 6 months there”.
    I think a lot of these boutique jobs are similar to ballerinas, opera stars and sports talent.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    If foreign imports were barred, wouldn't it give Americans a leg up in the world class pool?
    , @Opinionator
    Wages would rise for these "boutique jobs" and the jobs would be filled by Americans. It's not exactly unappealing work.
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  62. @Formerly CARealist
    I've been skiing since about 1992 and have never heard global warming come up. They talk about lift prices, new shaped skis, technology, market share, snow quality. I always ask questions because I want to know what successful businesses do.

    As to the length of the ski season, that's not weather-dependent, it's customer-dependent. One year (2011 maybe?) I asked my favorite resort why they were closing in April when there was still tons of snow. The reply was because the skiers weren't coming. By April the people who ski are off doing other activities.... surfing, traveling, boating. Squaw Valley will stay open late this year (it's still getting snow! but you only get one lift), but the other places are all closed.

    “I asked my favorite resort why they were closing in April when there was still tons of snow. The reply was because the skiers weren’t coming”

    This is a HUGE complaint the ski industry has.
    In NH and VT it is *NOT* the weather in NH and VT that matters, but the weather in Metro Boston. If people in Metro Boston look out their window and see their snow has melted, they assume it’s the same in NH/VT, despite the fact that the ski mountains are a hundred miles north and at significant elevation.
    You see this also w rain. If it’s raining in Boston the slopes will be empty in NH, despite the fact that it’s snowing in NH when it’s raining in Boston.
    One of the constant hurdles for ad/marketing is getting people past that, but it’s almost intractable

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Too bad there's not an easy way for people to find out what the weather is like in the state next to theirs.
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  63. @Dieter Kief

    20-25 years ago, the climateer alarmists assured us that global warming spelled doom and downsizing–if not an end (“the end of snow”)–to the ski industry, everywhere, and soon
     
    Things look pretty clear if you look at the Black Forrest in Germany or the Toggenburg in the pre-alps of eastern Switzerland: Things have changed quite impressively. Lots of lifts and Hotels closed.

    As a rule of thumb: Ski resorts in Switzerland the base-stations of which are below 1500 meters are in big troubles now and lots (lots!) of glaciers will soon be gone.

    Not a single Swiss glacier is as big as it was hundred years ago. – If this is not global warming, there must be something else going on. And with quite an effect.

    Those are a couple of spots. As to what is happening, it is called “climate.” It never is static, some areas are in warming trends, others in cooler cycles. It ebbs and flows all the time.

    The warmists/gloom and doomers never say that (not accusing you of being one). The whole thing is collapsing and we all are doomed. Everywhere. Any day now.

    Ski resorts in California will be open until July this year.

    The proclamation was not that there would be some closings here, and there. It was the end of snow, the whole industry was doomed.

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    • Replies: @Dieter Kief

    The proclamation was not that there would be some closings here, and there. It was the end of snow, the whole industry was doomed
     
    Statements like this are clearly over the top. But then - as paraonia is no insurance against stalkers, loony pro-arguments might not be proof, that there is no global warming going on.
    , @Dieter Kief
    The glacier meltdown*** takes place all over the Alps. A strech of 12oo Kilometers.

    Here in Europe, they are not looked upon as a spot - rather as something big.


    *** I can watch one from my native Konstanz. If I gaze over the lake and the air is clear, I see the Tödi-glacier, fifty Kilometers away. It (hopefully, kinda) will not outlast me.
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  64. CJ says:
    @PiltdownMan
    That's fine, as long as they are French, German, Italian or Swiss persons with actual experience of working on Alpine slopes.

    I simply can't believe that there is actually a shortage of labor, even at U.S. minimum wage. Being a ski-bum was a dream job for many in their late teens and twenties when I was that age. In fact, anybody who is a regular weekend skier daydreams of taking time off and living a life on the slopes. Unless American youth culture has changed a lot, I've got to imagine that there is still a huge potential supply of willing potential ski industry workers, as Steve implies with his headline.

    Heck, not just youths. The guy I rented a home from for a couple of years retired in his late fifties, sold the home and traded it in for a job and a small apartment in Squaw Valley.

    Believe it or not, Whistler ski resort in British Columbia has a lot of low-paid staff from Australia, although Canada has ski bums in abundance. Part of the problem may be lack of accommodation in the Whistler area. Working is these jobs would be something like making minimum wage in Aspen, Colo. I’m not sure how many of them have previous ski experience; skiing actually does exist in parts of Australia.

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  65. Phatmaus says:

    This is a tough case, since it’s not the usual scenario of immigrants coming to work for high(for them)/low(for Americans) washes

    In western Canada, about 80%(from personal observation) of the ski resort staff are white Australians. They could be making much more money back home, but decide to come over to ski in their summer and have an adventure on the other side of the world for 10 bucks an hour, crappy staff accommodation and a staff ski pass. They are also a demographic who’s presence genuinely lives up to stupid cliche of enriching the host culture.

    Maybe an exception should be made for Australia and New Zealand?

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Surely young Canadians would be willing to spend a few years as ski bums.
    , @Medvedev

    Maybe an exception should be made for Australia and New Zealand?
     
    I wouldn't mind them if we didn't have so many people without a job or struggling to find a job.
    , @sb
    It's very common for young(ish) Australians/New Zealanders to take a year or ten away from life's treadmill and go travelling .
    Some end up in Canadian ski fields because there are reciprocal working holiday visa agreements for young people between these countries .

    Australia has a working holiday program for many nationalities ( including Americans )
    It is very common to be served by a young ( Western ) foreigner in a restaurant or bar . Much Australian fruit and veg is picked by these working backpacker tourists .

    It's always seemed to me a win win scheme . Young people come and work at usually minimum pay jobs , tend to spend their money locally ( mainly on having a good time ) and then leave .
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  66. EriK says:
    @Outdoorspro (former)
    I was a certified ski bum (professional ski patrol; ie, full-time job) for ten years and I saw first-hand all that is wrong in the ski industry (yes, industry, including heavy equipment manufacturing--groomers, lifts--and ski equipment).

    As a patroller, I worked with some of the most highly-trained and experienced outdoor pros you'll ever meet. We provided emergency medical care, rescue and evacuation in some very dangerous places. We also performed avalanche mitigation, which requires experience with high-explosives and a knowledge of mountain, weather and snow dynamics that would make a you cry. And yes, there were days at work when you couldn't believe you were getting paid, there were many other days when you went out in conditions that no sane person would consider.

    The problem with that job, as it is the problem with all the jobs in that industry is that it takes years just to become proficient, and many more to become an "expert". It is important to retain the good people, but after 10 years at it and getting up to the point where I was regularly training new patrollers, I was maxed out at just over $12/hour. There were also no sick days available (seasonal work rarely has them) and it took a few years on the job before qualifying for health insurance. A bit of a problem with the high injury rates.

    After marrying and having a child, there was simply no option but to leave it behind and find more steady and better paying work. In fact, after many years there it became obvious that the only family folks who were able to stay were the ones with spouses with high-paying jobs (who were willing to support them) or who had lucrative summer jobs (very rare).

    It's a tough time for anyone in that industry, but they do it (or more importantly, stay with it after a season or two) because they love the job, the working environment and the perks. Unfortunately, most of the ski areas are now owned by massive corporations that only see the bottom line and would rather import cheap foreign labor than retain talented locals that truly love the work.

    As for ski patrol, it wouldn't matter how much the pay increased, as the sheer physical brutality and discomfort of the job would (and does) weed out most people who try it. Increased pay and benefits would simply help the talented folks stay at it longer.

    A cousin of mine moved to Colorado after high school and worked at ski areas for five years. He loved it but had to move on for the reasons you mentioned.

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  67. Crank says:

    Fresh powder rotting on the slopes!

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  68. Wilkey says:

    Whatever the solution to saving struggling (and “struggling”) ski resorts, providing subsidies (via immigration) to billionaires is not it. Get creative. Build housing that employees can afford. Locate colleges in the area so that young workers have a reason to live there most/all of the year. Whatever. It should not come at the expense of the American taxpayer. All of these articles professing a labor shortage should be subtitled “Rich businessmen seek subsidies from taxpayers.”

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  69. Wilkey says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    Prices of lift tickets at Vail and everyplace else in Colorado were no big deal when I grew up skiing there in the 1970s. In the intervening years, those prices have risen like green fees and baseball game tickets, to the point where now such outings are luxuries with costs most people have to think about.

    What has happened is the story of our country now: The borderless business class has gotten richer while the middle class has been shrunk, weakened, and replaced by a poor class that runs ski lifts and mows lawns (both jobs formerly done by young Americans of all classes).

    Lift ticket prices, adjusted for inflation, are higher than ever, but more and more ski workers are imported cheap labor.

    Even working at a hamburger joint, formerly a teenager's first job, has become a career occupied by little, brown people with seven kids -- people who now march and protest for higher minimum wages because they can't live and grow seven kids on teenage-hamburger-flipper wages.

    Is the day of marching, protesting, brown lift operators far behind?

    This fits the whole picture of our formerly New World becoming more like the Old World: rich-and-poor, more Latin-American.

    My best and oldest friend was a ski bum for a year after college at Jackson Hole. I bet he couldn't repeat that now if he wanted to.

    BTW Vail was always a popular place for rich Mexicans to buy vacation homes, even when I grew up skiing there.

    “Prices of lift tickets at Vail and everyplace else in Colorado were no big deal when I grew up skiing there in the 1970s”

    Yeah man, but that’s, like, the whole supply and demand thing, like, ya know?

    When the demand for my product goes up I can like raise the price to like a million bucks.

    But if the demand for labor goes up? No way man, I shouldn’t have to pay any extra! I should get the government to flood the market with cheap, foreign labor, instead!

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  70. prosa123 says: • Website
    @unit472
    I suppose it doesn't occur to those unable to fill low pay low skill positions that those 'jobs' are not worth filling, i.e., there is no economic reason for their business to exist. The milk man, the newspaper boy and the Fuller Brush man are similar business models that just don't work anymore.

    “I suppose it doesn’t occur to those unable to fill low pay low skill positions that those ‘jobs’ are not worth filling, i.e., there is no economic reason for their business to exist. The milk man, the newspaper boy and the Fuller Brush man are similar business models that just don’t work anymore.”

    True for those jobs, but not in the case of ski area workers. They actually are needed.

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    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Price?
    , @Wilkey
    "True for those jobs, but not in the case of ski area workers. They actually are needed."

    According to whom? A ski resort should be able to pay its bills if demand is sufficient. If there isn't enough demand from skiers then the workers are not needed.

    Even non-destination resorts can thrive. If you've built a resort in an area that isn't near a major population center and that otherwise has no reason to draw people then yes, your resort may be struggling and you may have to shut down. But that's because it's in a region of the country where few Americans have chosen to live, or where the ski conditions are poor. Immigration laws aren't going to change the snow conditions, and they won't change the number of people who want to visit or live in the town (except for immigrants themselves).

    Yeah, the most profitable resorts are more about real estate than skiing, per se. Here in the Salt Lake area where I live that would be Deer Valley, among others. But Brighton, Solitude, Alta, Snowbird, and Snowbasin have all survived for years despite any major revenue from lodging and real estate. They've survived because they have a strong base of locals as both customers and employees.

    Immigration, of the permanent or temporary kind, isn't going go save the struggling resorts. That needs to come through investment at the resort and economic development in the region that attracts more people of skiing age to want to live or visit there.
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  71. @Guy de Champlagne
    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions who was his one real anti immigration appointment, so he's probably to be even more of a disappointment on this issue going forward.

    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions

    CNN has been trying to start fights among Trump’s staff for months now. First it was Bannon, then Kellyanne Conway, then Kushner, now Sessions. They want Sessions to wake up and see a story about how Trump secretly hates him and has been running him down in private, and get all angry. Pathetic.

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    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
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  72. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Buck Turgidson
    Not sure if it's still the case (I expect it is), but some of the big Colorado resorts bus in immigrant workers daily to clean the hotels and so forth.

    The 'workers' can't afford to live local so they are housed in trailers 40, 50, 60 miles from the resort out in undesirable locales in the middle of nowhere (e.g., the outskirts of Leadville).

    Another immigration feel-good story.

    The ‘workers’ can’t afford to live local so they are housed in trailers 40, 50, 60 miles from the resort out in undesirable locales in the middle of nowhere (e.g., the outskirts of Leadville).

    I was thinking something like this might be the case. The cost of housing must be very high, and ski bums are probably not willing to live so far away and have such a long commute for a minimum wage job. They want to live close to the jobs, sharing a house or apartment with a bunch of other people splitting the rent.

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  73. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anonymous-antimarxist
    Now students just borrow money and go into debt while an imported servant class cleans up after them and serves them food.

    Another issue is that young people are simply in horrible physical shape compared to their parent's generation. Skiing requires a level of fitness that a kid raised on fast food, video games, internet porn and legalized pot can not deal with.

    Acquaintances of mine who worked at ski resorts in the 70-80s would tell me that Colorado colleges had some lefty betas and pot heads back then, there were lots of kids who were in shape and worked at the resorts whenever possible.

    Ever see photos of 4-20 at Colorado colleges nowadays??? It is disgusting.

    What’s 4-20?

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    4/20, 4:20, April 20th, National smoke a bong day. I am as clueless as you since I am not a pothead. All I know is on Colorado campuses the pot smoke is so thick you can not see from one end of a quad to the other.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    420 is code for pot. If you see an ad for a "420 friendly" place, they are talking about weed.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=420
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  74. @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    For positions like "lift monkey", it's not. But for boutique slots like "ski school manager" and "director of snow making", the world class pool you draw from is "6 months here, 6 months there".
    I think a lot of these boutique jobs are similar to ballerinas, opera stars and sports talent.

    If foreign imports were barred, wouldn’t it give Americans a leg up in the world class pool?

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  75. @Phatmaus
    This is a tough case, since it's not the usual scenario of immigrants coming to work for high(for them)/low(for Americans) washes

    In western Canada, about 80%(from personal observation) of the ski resort staff are white Australians. They could be making much more money back home, but decide to come over to ski in their summer and have an adventure on the other side of the world for 10 bucks an hour, crappy staff accommodation and a staff ski pass. They are also a demographic who's presence genuinely lives up to stupid cliche of enriching the host culture.

    Maybe an exception should be made for Australia and New Zealand?

    Surely young Canadians would be willing to spend a few years as ski bums.

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    • Replies: @Phatmaus
    For them it's a job, not a rite of passage adventure and not worth doing for ten bucks an hour.
    , @Opinionator
    Are you predicting that if Australians and other foreigners were barred from working at ski resorts, then the resorts would be unable to find workers and would have to close?
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  76. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    "I asked my favorite resort why they were closing in April when there was still tons of snow. The reply was because the skiers weren’t coming"

    This is a HUGE complaint the ski industry has.
    In NH and VT it is *NOT* the weather in NH and VT that matters, but the weather in Metro Boston. If people in Metro Boston look out their window and see their snow has melted, they assume it's the same in NH/VT, despite the fact that the ski mountains are a hundred miles north and at significant elevation.
    You see this also w rain. If it's raining in Boston the slopes will be empty in NH, despite the fact that it's snowing in NH when it's raining in Boston.
    One of the constant hurdles for ad/marketing is getting people past that, but it's almost intractable

    Too bad there’s not an easy way for people to find out what the weather is like in the state next to theirs.

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  77. @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    For positions like "lift monkey", it's not. But for boutique slots like "ski school manager" and "director of snow making", the world class pool you draw from is "6 months here, 6 months there".
    I think a lot of these boutique jobs are similar to ballerinas, opera stars and sports talent.

    Wages would rise for these “boutique jobs” and the jobs would be filled by Americans. It’s not exactly unappealing work.

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  78. Having lived in Miami all of my life, I can add nothing to this discussion.

    OT: In my experience, older native-born English-speaking Americans fleeing Miami go to North Carolina, or elsewhere in Florida. (Quite a few people I know, including my uncle, have moved to Port St. Lucie.) Sometimes I wonder whether or not the folks in North Carolina regard Miamians with the same scorn that Coloradans seem to reserve for Californians.

    You know, I have to confess that I listen to a lot of Spanish-language music – Julio Iglesias and the like. I’ve been known to eat picadillo for dinner. I support a total ban on immigration, but I’ve spent too much of my life around immigrants to feel any real hatred for them.

    I know an awful lot of Jewish folks, too. Most of my acquaintances have at least one Jewish grandparent.

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    • Replies: @AM
    North Carolina is right now overrun with transplants from the Northeast, myself included. They'd probably just fit in anyway, because like Dave Barry, they're only 1 or 2 generations from being from the Northeast.
    , @Lurker
    Who said anything about hatred?

    The only hatred seems to be the righteous anger new (and not so new) non-white arrivals are supposed to feel about your white privilege.
    , @William Badwhite
    Hatred has nothing to do with it. There are countless people that I like personally that I do not want living in my house. Not wanting your country overrun with tens of millions of foreigners does not mean you hate them.

    Many of these endless foreigner hordes are wonderful people. They have a home: Mexico, Brazil, etc. On the other hand, we have the Haitians.

    "Hate" is now a word of the left - it is meant to say that your opinions are irrational. That your opposition to anything they support derives from mindless emotion and evil.

    I also live in Miami. The assholish driving, the ceaseless horn-blowing, the medicare scams, the flagrant disregard for basic order...these are all the price of our wonderful immigrants. On the plus side we have vaca frita.

    And of course the turnpike is clogged clear up past Jupiter because we can never have enough people...More more more. A billion or bust should be our national motto.
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  79. @Buck Turgidson
    Those are a couple of spots. As to what is happening, it is called "climate." It never is static, some areas are in warming trends, others in cooler cycles. It ebbs and flows all the time.

    The warmists/gloom and doomers never say that (not accusing you of being one). The whole thing is collapsing and we all are doomed. Everywhere. Any day now.

    Ski resorts in California will be open until July this year.


    The proclamation was not that there would be some closings here, and there. It was the end of snow, the whole industry was doomed.

    The proclamation was not that there would be some closings here, and there. It was the end of snow, the whole industry was doomed

    Statements like this are clearly over the top. But then – as paraonia is no insurance against stalkers, loony pro-arguments might not be proof, that there is no global warming going on.

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    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Again, the question is what is the marginal gain (loss) to a marginal change in our behavior? If the expected gain is insignificant from zero, why change our behavior?
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  80. Phatmaus says:
    @Opinionator
    Surely young Canadians would be willing to spend a few years as ski bums.

    For them it’s a job, not a rite of passage adventure and not worth doing for ten bucks an hour.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Are you predicting that if Australians and other foreigners were barred from working at ski resorts, then the resorts would be unable to find workers and would have to close?
    , @Summit bum
    Vail pays 9 an hour. A high school drop out can earn 13 an hour at Wendy's down the road. Vail pays their employees shit and treats them like shit. Lifties can't take ride breaks anymore. Who the fuck wants to work on a mountain all day and not be able to ride? All locals hate Vail resorts. It's their own God damn fault. Fuck Vail
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  81. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Diversity Heretic
    What can one say? The constituency for cheap labor is strong and shameless-racial dispossession to save $3 on a daily lift ticket. Ski slopes melting into fields!

    But at least most of these would probably be young white European men. Not as bad as the agriculture/landscape/food service brown folks. One can even say, healthy replacement for the older white American men erasing themselves off with opioids and such.

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  82. Twenty years ago, right after graduating from UMASS, a female family friend and five of her girlfriends moved out to Vail. Within the first year the five girlfriends moved back east, while the family friend worked random resort jobs and skied her ass off, met her husband, got in early on a couple of serendipitous real estate purchases, and now, along with her husband own a very successful property management business, a couple of rental properties of their own, and a successful restaurant, and live slope side in a million-dollar condo, and still seasonally skis a couple of times a week.

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  83. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @black sea
    "At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class."
    -- Eric Beck, rock climber

    Krakauer doesn't have the wit to come up with something like that.

    I read it in one of Krakauer’s books of collected articles. He probably credited Beck for it there, but I don’t remember — read it ~20 years ago.

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  84. @Opinionator
    Surely young Canadians would be willing to spend a few years as ski bums.

    Are you predicting that if Australians and other foreigners were barred from working at ski resorts, then the resorts would be unable to find workers and would have to close?

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  85. @Cowboy Shaw
    Surely skifields are going to go bust across NA and Europe on a vast scale in the next generation. If you kill the middle class, and make flying so bloody awful, then people will just stop skiing. I have always been keen skier and enjoy the mountains, but stopped about 7 or 8 years ago. It was a bit like going out late drinking at night; not a conscious decision, but it just fell off my radar of choices given time / income.

    Having said that, it has occurred to my, while skiing, that it is one of the few sports we do that aliens are also likely to do. Surfing another one. Water, snow, gravity being the same across the universe. I doubt any aliens have invented cricket, for example.

    “[skiing] is one of the few sports we do that aliens are also likely to do. Surfing another one.”

    I dunno, Eskimos and Tibetans, who aren’t even that alien, don’t ski. And who besides Polynesians and whites surf? In a world full of coastal dwellers, there should be more: water, snow and gravity being universal constants.

    Sports start out as extreme sports, and as Steve has (somewhat hyperbolically) remarked, extreme sports are 99% white and 1% Japanese. So unless the aliens are somewhere between 99% white and 1% Japanese, maybe they don’t.

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  86. @Phatmaus
    For them it's a job, not a rite of passage adventure and not worth doing for ten bucks an hour.

    Are you predicting that if Australians and other foreigners were barred from working at ski resorts, then the resorts would be unable to find workers and would have to close?

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    • Replies: @Phatmaus
    No, just that young, white Australians are an utterly different category from Guatemalan tomato pickers, in terms of: crime, pleasantness to be around and likelihood of going back.

    Australians can already get an E-3 visa on request, with no intake limitations to work in the US indefinitely as professionals. No one is complaining of Australian programmers taking anyone's job, even though there are technically quite a few, because they usually go back after getting some high end experience, due to considering 'Straya to be the best country to live in(from taking to the ones I've met)
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  87. @Anonymous
    What's 4-20?

    4/20, 4:20, April 20th, National smoke a bong day. I am as clueless as you since I am not a pothead. All I know is on Colorado campuses the pot smoke is so thick you can not see from one end of a quad to the other.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Thanks. It's bizarre to me how so many pro-marijuana people are anti-tobacco.
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  88. @prosa123
    "I suppose it doesn’t occur to those unable to fill low pay low skill positions that those ‘jobs’ are not worth filling, i.e., there is no economic reason for their business to exist. The milk man, the newspaper boy and the Fuller Brush man are similar business models that just don’t work anymore."

    True for those jobs, but not in the case of ski area workers. They actually are needed.

    Price?

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  89. It won’t happen. Donald Trump will never be a traitor to his class. That may be the only consistency we get from him.

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  90. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anonymous-antimarxist
    4/20, 4:20, April 20th, National smoke a bong day. I am as clueless as you since I am not a pothead. All I know is on Colorado campuses the pot smoke is so thick you can not see from one end of a quad to the other.

    Thanks. It’s bizarre to me how so many pro-marijuana people are anti-tobacco.

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  91. @Dieter Kief

    The proclamation was not that there would be some closings here, and there. It was the end of snow, the whole industry was doomed
     
    Statements like this are clearly over the top. But then - as paraonia is no insurance against stalkers, loony pro-arguments might not be proof, that there is no global warming going on.

    Again, the question is what is the marginal gain (loss) to a marginal change in our behavior? If the expected gain is insignificant from zero, why change our behavior?

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    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Ok - if it was (was) sure, that Global Warming is something with marginal outcomes, we could (or even should) forget about it. But that seems not to be true. Since it might (Ok: might) be, that even 5 degrees celsius plus are reality by the end of the century. And such a change would (Ok: would) by no scientific standard be marginal.
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  92. Mr. Anon says:
    @FPD72
    Ever hear of SIC Codes? Stands for Standard INDUSTRIAL Classification Codes. Used by the federal government and many private companies to classify businesses.

    Sorry, you're in the minority on this one.

    Ever hear of SIC Codes? Stands for Standard INDUSTRIAL Classification Codes. Used by the federal government and many private companies to classify businesses.

    So? Doesn’t make it right. I don’t care what you think. Porn is not an “industry”.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Porn and televangelism are both industries, and, like the Motor City Madman and the Rubber City Ruminant, they may profess hatred for each other, but are more alike than either would admit.
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  93. Phatmaus says:
    @Opinionator
    Are you predicting that if Australians and other foreigners were barred from working at ski resorts, then the resorts would be unable to find workers and would have to close?

    No, just that young, white Australians are an utterly different category from Guatemalan tomato pickers, in terms of: crime, pleasantness to be around and likelihood of going back.

    Australians can already get an E-3 visa on request, with no intake limitations to work in the US indefinitely as professionals. No one is complaining of Australian programmers taking anyone’s job, even though there are technically quite a few, because they usually go back after getting some high end experience, due to considering ‘Straya to be the best country to live in(from taking to the ones I’ve met)

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  94. So you guys don’t know about the Hyderbad Ski Resort and Spa? How about the snowboard heroes of Bangalore? Raji and Advik can groom the powder and sex the divorcees as well as Gurkiran can program the algos or Saanvi can help you with your credit card issues!

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    • Replies: @anon
    LOL! Just because they are good at STEM, they are good with snow? (Hyderabad and Bangalore are tropical)
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  95. Medvedev says:
    @Phatmaus
    This is a tough case, since it's not the usual scenario of immigrants coming to work for high(for them)/low(for Americans) washes

    In western Canada, about 80%(from personal observation) of the ski resort staff are white Australians. They could be making much more money back home, but decide to come over to ski in their summer and have an adventure on the other side of the world for 10 bucks an hour, crappy staff accommodation and a staff ski pass. They are also a demographic who's presence genuinely lives up to stupid cliche of enriching the host culture.

    Maybe an exception should be made for Australia and New Zealand?

    Maybe an exception should be made for Australia and New Zealand?

    I wouldn’t mind them if we didn’t have so many people without a job or struggling to find a job.

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  96. sb says:
    @Phatmaus
    This is a tough case, since it's not the usual scenario of immigrants coming to work for high(for them)/low(for Americans) washes

    In western Canada, about 80%(from personal observation) of the ski resort staff are white Australians. They could be making much more money back home, but decide to come over to ski in their summer and have an adventure on the other side of the world for 10 bucks an hour, crappy staff accommodation and a staff ski pass. They are also a demographic who's presence genuinely lives up to stupid cliche of enriching the host culture.

    Maybe an exception should be made for Australia and New Zealand?

    It’s very common for young(ish) Australians/New Zealanders to take a year or ten away from life’s treadmill and go travelling .
    Some end up in Canadian ski fields because there are reciprocal working holiday visa agreements for young people between these countries .

    Australia has a working holiday program for many nationalities ( including Americans )
    It is very common to be served by a young ( Western ) foreigner in a restaurant or bar . Much Australian fruit and veg is picked by these working backpacker tourists .

    It’s always seemed to me a win win scheme . Young people come and work at usually minimum pay jobs , tend to spend their money locally ( mainly on having a good time ) and then leave .

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    Resorts have been using Down Under, Chilean and Argentinian European labor since the 1960/1970s. They are a small fraction of the imported labor force at resorts. Most work as on hill or guest services staff so you see more of them.

    The thousands of jobs making beds, cleaning bathrooms, cooking and serving food and drink etc are increasing done by Mexicans, Central American, Brazilian and Caribbean workers legal and illegal. They often hate the cold and are bussed to and from the ski area each day. Ski resorts love that they hate the cold because they do not have to worry about them not showing up for a shift after working 10 days straight in order to enjoy a "Powder Day".

    At least the South Hemisphere college kids eventually go back home and help grow the Ski industry internationally. The Mexicans and Central Americans after being exploited feel entitled to stay and often drop anchor(baby).

    The problem is that Ski Resorts unlike 30-40 years ago are no longer attempting to recruit a Michigan or Wisconsin college kid on campus who may have skied a few times as a kid to take a semester off and work at a resort and earn decent money and between busting ass 50-60 hours a week learn to be a proficient skier.

    It was these ex-"Ski-Bums" who helped launched Skiing's hey days in the 70-80s through out the Midwest and Atlantic states where the skiing conditions are far more marginal. Ski areas in these states are in real trouble. But for decades lots of middle class kids got introduced to skiing at tiny 300 vertical feet ski hills across the country. Some even world class skiers got their start at the local gravel dump turn ski hill.

    The middle/working class Ski Club craze of 25-30 years ago is rapidly dying. Use to be for example every major Midwest city had a police/fire department ski club. Now it is "Skiing Alone"....

    Thanks Boomers!!!!!

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  97. @Neil Templeton
    Again, the question is what is the marginal gain (loss) to a marginal change in our behavior? If the expected gain is insignificant from zero, why change our behavior?

    Ok – if it was (was) sure, that Global Warming is something with marginal outcomes, we could (or even should) forget about it. But that seems not to be true. Since it might (Ok: might) be, that even 5 degrees celsius plus are reality by the end of the century. And such a change would (Ok: would) by no scientific standard be marginal.

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    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    True enough that catastrophic outcomes resulting from marginal changes complicates the analysis. And since many climate terror advocates insist upon assigning very high probabilities, even certainty, to catastrophic outcomes, total shut down of GG emissions is rational despite very high expected costs. Under these circumstances, analytic resolution of the contested issues may be impossible.
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  98. @Buck Turgidson
    Those are a couple of spots. As to what is happening, it is called "climate." It never is static, some areas are in warming trends, others in cooler cycles. It ebbs and flows all the time.

    The warmists/gloom and doomers never say that (not accusing you of being one). The whole thing is collapsing and we all are doomed. Everywhere. Any day now.

    Ski resorts in California will be open until July this year.


    The proclamation was not that there would be some closings here, and there. It was the end of snow, the whole industry was doomed.

    The glacier meltdown*** takes place all over the Alps. A strech of 12oo Kilometers.

    Here in Europe, they are not looked upon as a spot – rather as something big.

    *** I can watch one from my native Konstanz. If I gaze over the lake and the air is clear, I see the Tödi-glacier, fifty Kilometers away. It (hopefully, kinda) will not outlast me.

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  99. @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    Huge, longtime iSteve fan and big ski fan. I actually, genuinely thinkskiing is one of those industries that ought to support immigration visas, at least at certain levels.

    i)at my local mountain, most are white south africans, many of whom "forget" to hop back on the airplane home. Fine by me!

    ii) skiing is hemispherical (the Austral winter is July) so for the top tier talent, it's a 6 months in Chile/Argentina 6 months in Veil type job. If you want full time, year round employees properly dedicated to craft (either in managing snow making, which is extraordinarily complex, teaching skiing at high levels etc) that's the breaks. No one from the Professional tier who could do better would sign for a 5 month job w unemployment as severance.

    iii) skiing *IS* a dying industry. The above poster who put the 3 year growth of Vail doesn't follow the industry. The average age of a skier has increased as well. It is a boomer/gen X sport, and Gen Y and younger have simply not followed them onto the slopes. The average age of a skier is now 38. Every ski business I know (and I work in this capacity) is focusing on their transition into a boutique niche role. Everyone who is anyone is in a "revenue maximizing" not "growth maximizing" phase, NO ONE expects growth in the future.
    Snowboarding, a plausible injection of a different constituency into the same sphere, has been a dud
    http://www.denverpost.com/2012/05/11/snowboarding-numbers-trending-downhill-3/

    skiing *IS* a dying industry. … The average age of a skier is now 38

    Then it would be stupid to import a bunch of immigrants to prop up an industry that will just keep shrinking. Unless the immigrants are going to learn to ski.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Charlie don't surf, and Hector isn't big on skiing either.
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  100. The Greenland ice sheet is at record extent.

    The Sierra Nevada mountains are neither one ‘spot.’ Record snows this year. Skiing through July.

    Clearly something is going on

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  101. @Cowboy Shaw
    Surely skifields are going to go bust across NA and Europe on a vast scale in the next generation. If you kill the middle class, and make flying so bloody awful, then people will just stop skiing. I have always been keen skier and enjoy the mountains, but stopped about 7 or 8 years ago. It was a bit like going out late drinking at night; not a conscious decision, but it just fell off my radar of choices given time / income.

    Having said that, it has occurred to my, while skiing, that it is one of the few sports we do that aliens are also likely to do. Surfing another one. Water, snow, gravity being the same across the universe. I doubt any aliens have invented cricket, for example.

    That’s a very good point. The slow death of the middle classes in the UK and US is already taking its toll on golf courses – could ski slopes be next?

    OTOH, skiing attracts a younger crowd, who perhaps will prefer to ski twice a year and live in tiny rented apartments rather than buying a home. Young people are still taking a lot of long-haul flights.

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  102. @Peter Akuleyev
    You clearly don't ski. Everyone in the ski industry in Europe and the East Coast is convinced global warming is real because the season has gotten much shorter over the last 30 years. Just had a ski instructor in Austria telling me exactly that.

    Of course the reality is that local snow fall doesn't really prove global climate change either way.

    Believe it or not, there was a big resort development (Aviemore) built in Scotland in the 1970s when snowfall was high in the Cairngorms. Even into summer there would be a lot on the summits. The hotels have been sold off and the ice rink was derelict last time I was there.

    On Ben Nevis (4,400 feet) in August 1973 I can recall the snowline was about 1500 feet, well below zero at the summit – in August! There’s no doubt at all that winters were longer and colder then.

    In Europe and Iceland glaciers have been in retreat over the last 40 years.

    (Nordics had been sliding around on skis for millennia before wealthy Brits had the idea just to go downhill on them for fun)

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  103. @Guy de Champlagne
    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions who was his one real anti immigration appointment, so he's probably to be even more of a disappointment on this issue going forward.

    And Trump has supposedly turned on Jeff Sessions

    This sounds like heavily editorialized “news” designed to make Trump look bad or demoralize Trump supporters, not actual reporting of events

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  104. @unit472
    I suppose it doesn't occur to those unable to fill low pay low skill positions that those 'jobs' are not worth filling, i.e., there is no economic reason for their business to exist. The milk man, the newspaper boy and the Fuller Brush man are similar business models that just don't work anymore.

    Went to a ski resort this past winter and the workers were from Chile. They called it an internship so I asked if they were studying Hospitality. No, they weren’t.
    They just watched us get on and off the lifts. They were all very European-looking Chileans, so probably upper middle class. No doubt they will get their MBAs here one day then work for Goldman or McKinsey in South America, keeping their countrymen under the yoke…

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  105. anonymous says: • Website • Disclaimer
    @Charles Pewitt
    The SKI INDUSTRY says it needs more cheap labor interlopers? The SKI INDUSTRY can go to hell. The SKI INDUSTRY says it needs more H-2B visa foreign workers to operate? Those damn money-grubbers can jump the hell off a cliff as far as I am concerned.

    The H-2B visa cheap labor scam presents a good opportunity to help the Trump administration get right with the American patriots that put it into office. President Trump won the presidency on the promise of putting the interests of America and the American people first in all circumstances. This is a chance for President Trump to give a mea culpa speech written by Stephen Miller that explicitly rejects the constant call for more cheap labor foreign workers from the various industries that continuously clamor for an endless supply of foreign low-wage workers.

    President Trump has acknowledged that he has used the H-2B foreign worker visa at Mar-a-Lago because it is "very, very hard to get people" to work under the seasonal work conditions at play in the golf club industry. President Trump has or has attempted to get foreign workers to prune his wine vines at his Virginia winery. (You California people might have your own Newsom winery foreign worker visa scam going too, so don't smirk.)

    President Trump must say that he has used the foreign worker visa system, but that going forward the United States is going to cut way back on the use of foreign workers and the foreign worker visa system in the future.

    Stephen Miller could write this speech in 2 hours, and the voters who put President Trump into office would happily embrace President Trump's mea culpa on using foreign workers. These voters would be very happy to see President Trump put the interests of American workers ahead of the interests of narrow business sectors and the interests of foreign interlopers.
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  106. @Anonymous
    What's 4-20?

    420 is code for pot. If you see an ad for a “420 friendly” place, they are talking about weed.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=420

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  107. Wilkey says:
    @prosa123
    "I suppose it doesn’t occur to those unable to fill low pay low skill positions that those ‘jobs’ are not worth filling, i.e., there is no economic reason for their business to exist. The milk man, the newspaper boy and the Fuller Brush man are similar business models that just don’t work anymore."

    True for those jobs, but not in the case of ski area workers. They actually are needed.

    “True for those jobs, but not in the case of ski area workers. They actually are needed.”

    According to whom? A ski resort should be able to pay its bills if demand is sufficient. If there isn’t enough demand from skiers then the workers are not needed.

    Even non-destination resorts can thrive. If you’ve built a resort in an area that isn’t near a major population center and that otherwise has no reason to draw people then yes, your resort may be struggling and you may have to shut down. But that’s because it’s in a region of the country where few Americans have chosen to live, or where the ski conditions are poor. Immigration laws aren’t going to change the snow conditions, and they won’t change the number of people who want to visit or live in the town (except for immigrants themselves).

    Yeah, the most profitable resorts are more about real estate than skiing, per se. Here in the Salt Lake area where I live that would be Deer Valley, among others. But Brighton, Solitude, Alta, Snowbird, and Snowbasin have all survived for years despite any major revenue from lodging and real estate. They’ve survived because they have a strong base of locals as both customers and employees.

    Immigration, of the permanent or temporary kind, isn’t going go save the struggling resorts. That needs to come through investment at the resort and economic development in the region that attracts more people of skiing age to want to live or visit there.

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  108. @sb
    It's very common for young(ish) Australians/New Zealanders to take a year or ten away from life's treadmill and go travelling .
    Some end up in Canadian ski fields because there are reciprocal working holiday visa agreements for young people between these countries .

    Australia has a working holiday program for many nationalities ( including Americans )
    It is very common to be served by a young ( Western ) foreigner in a restaurant or bar . Much Australian fruit and veg is picked by these working backpacker tourists .

    It's always seemed to me a win win scheme . Young people come and work at usually minimum pay jobs , tend to spend their money locally ( mainly on having a good time ) and then leave .

    Resorts have been using Down Under, Chilean and Argentinian European labor since the 1960/1970s. They are a small fraction of the imported labor force at resorts. Most work as on hill or guest services staff so you see more of them.

    The thousands of jobs making beds, cleaning bathrooms, cooking and serving food and drink etc are increasing done by Mexicans, Central American, Brazilian and Caribbean workers legal and illegal. They often hate the cold and are bussed to and from the ski area each day. Ski resorts love that they hate the cold because they do not have to worry about them not showing up for a shift after working 10 days straight in order to enjoy a “Powder Day”.

    At least the South Hemisphere college kids eventually go back home and help grow the Ski industry internationally. The Mexicans and Central Americans after being exploited feel entitled to stay and often drop anchor(baby).

    The problem is that Ski Resorts unlike 30-40 years ago are no longer attempting to recruit a Michigan or Wisconsin college kid on campus who may have skied a few times as a kid to take a semester off and work at a resort and earn decent money and between busting ass 50-60 hours a week learn to be a proficient skier.

    It was these ex-”Ski-Bums” who helped launched Skiing’s hey days in the 70-80s through out the Midwest and Atlantic states where the skiing conditions are far more marginal. Ski areas in these states are in real trouble. But for decades lots of middle class kids got introduced to skiing at tiny 300 vertical feet ski hills across the country. Some even world class skiers got their start at the local gravel dump turn ski hill.

    The middle/working class Ski Club craze of 25-30 years ago is rapidly dying. Use to be for example every major Midwest city had a police/fire department ski club. Now it is “Skiing Alone”….

    Thanks Boomers!!!!!

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  109. @Dieter Kief
    Ok - if it was (was) sure, that Global Warming is something with marginal outcomes, we could (or even should) forget about it. But that seems not to be true. Since it might (Ok: might) be, that even 5 degrees celsius plus are reality by the end of the century. And such a change would (Ok: would) by no scientific standard be marginal.

    True enough that catastrophic outcomes resulting from marginal changes complicates the analysis. And since many climate terror advocates insist upon assigning very high probabilities, even certainty, to catastrophic outcomes, total shut down of GG emissions is rational despite very high expected costs. Under these circumstances, analytic resolution of the contested issues may be impossible.

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    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    No need to give in to the alarmists - and no need to give in to the science- (and plain eysight!) deniers as well.
    Cool (ehe) head is (as so often...) needed.

    My little scene about the future - and present - of the debate: If you'd be sitting in a car and would be told, that this car is by a 5% chance likely to hit a concrete wall fifty years from now with 50 miles/hr - should you relax and just keep going on?
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  110. AM says:
    @Stan Adams
    Having lived in Miami all of my life, I can add nothing to this discussion.

    OT: In my experience, older native-born English-speaking Americans fleeing Miami go to North Carolina, or elsewhere in Florida. (Quite a few people I know, including my uncle, have moved to Port St. Lucie.) Sometimes I wonder whether or not the folks in North Carolina regard Miamians with the same scorn that Coloradans seem to reserve for Californians.

    You know, I have to confess that I listen to a lot of Spanish-language music - Julio Iglesias and the like. I've been known to eat picadillo for dinner. I support a total ban on immigration, but I've spent too much of my life around immigrants to feel any real hatred for them.

    I know an awful lot of Jewish folks, too. Most of my acquaintances have at least one Jewish grandparent.

    North Carolina is right now overrun with transplants from the Northeast, myself included. They’d probably just fit in anyway, because like Dave Barry, they’re only 1 or 2 generations from being from the Northeast.

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  111. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Oleaginous Outrager
    So you guys don't know about the Hyderbad Ski Resort and Spa? How about the snowboard heroes of Bangalore? Raji and Advik can groom the powder and sex the divorcees as well as Gurkiran can program the algos or Saanvi can help you with your credit card issues!

    LOL! Just because they are good at STEM, they are good with snow? (Hyderabad and Bangalore are tropical)

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  112. They’re bitching about this at Mackinac Island, too.

    As if young, unemployed Americans don’t want to spend the summer “somewhere in time”. Do they spend the summer in tiger-mom helicopter camps to get into top nursery graduate schools?

    This is really fishy. I mean, is the prohibition of cars there really that onerous to our teens? I thought they were all riding transit these days!

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  113. Wilkey says:
    @anonymous-antimarxist
    I would like to see a breakdown of where the actual profits are coming from, actual Ski operations vs. Real Estate. For much of the last decade the big Resort Corporations owning the top premium ski areas have made their profits off of real estate.

    Is this another sign that another real estate bubble is around the bend this time concentrated among wealthy aging boomers competing with Asians and Mexicans looking to shelter tainted profits through purchasing luxury bolt holes???

    “I would like to see a breakdown of where the actual profits are coming from, actual Ski operations vs. Real Estate. For much of the last decade the big Resort Corporations owning the top premium ski areas have made their profits off of real estate.”

    The press release itself makes pretty clear that it is the big, profitable resorts that are professing a labor shortage. In my experience those are the places where you are most likely to encounter foreign workers – more in the lodges than as lift personnel. The ski resorts which cater to locals are staffed entirely by locals – or at least by American ski bums.

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    That is not necessarily true.

    I have been to ski hills in the Iron River/Iron Mountain regions of Wisconsin/Michigan UP that used foreign labor. Now I know for a fact some of these workers thought they were headed to one of the top 30 destination resorts when they applied for their visas. They ended up somewhere far from where they expected but still needed to make money to pay back their up front costs. Yes I have seen Jamaicans and Brazilians working at a UP ski area where there are lots of local unemployed working class whites.

    The resorts industry makes ridiculous demands for imported labor. Given the huge drop in the actual skier population since the mid-eighties any publicly held or indebted ski area will be under great pressure from Wall Street or their big bank creditors to look for the cheapest labor even if in the long run the practice is extremely short sighted.

    Again see the Hal Clifford book Downhill Slide from 15 years ago. It has been reissued and he has done follow up articles and interviews. Pretty much everything he says about the destructive labor practices common through out the Ski industry hold up.

    It is just one huge cluster$%@K for the entire ski industry.

    Once again THANK YOU BOOMERS!!!!
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  114. @Wilkey
    "I would like to see a breakdown of where the actual profits are coming from, actual Ski operations vs. Real Estate. For much of the last decade the big Resort Corporations owning the top premium ski areas have made their profits off of real estate."

    The press release itself makes pretty clear that it is the big, profitable resorts that are professing a labor shortage. In my experience those are the places where you are most likely to encounter foreign workers - more in the lodges than as lift personnel. The ski resorts which cater to locals are staffed entirely by locals - or at least by American ski bums.

    That is not necessarily true.

    I have been to ski hills in the Iron River/Iron Mountain regions of Wisconsin/Michigan UP that used foreign labor. Now I know for a fact some of these workers thought they were headed to one of the top 30 destination resorts when they applied for their visas. They ended up somewhere far from where they expected but still needed to make money to pay back their up front costs. Yes I have seen Jamaicans and Brazilians working at a UP ski area where there are lots of local unemployed working class whites.

    The resorts industry makes ridiculous demands for imported labor. Given the huge drop in the actual skier population since the mid-eighties any publicly held or indebted ski area will be under great pressure from Wall Street or their big bank creditors to look for the cheapest labor even if in the long run the practice is extremely short sighted.

    Again see the Hal Clifford book Downhill Slide from 15 years ago. It has been reissued and he has done follow up articles and interviews. Pretty much everything he says about the destructive labor practices common through out the Ski industry hold up.

    It is just one huge cluster$%@K for the entire ski industry.

    Once again THANK YOU BOOMERS!!!!

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  115. I last skied 30 years ago at Mt. Attitash, NH. But last summer I did three days of downhill mountain biking at 8,000 to 11,00 feet at Winter Park Resort, CO. It was a blast! Forty-five minutes to an hour to get down the mountain and a comfortable chair lift ride, along w/ the high-quality rented bike, back up. I was wiped after five trips. Can’t wait to go again. Oh, and all the workers were White, granola-types, making a few bucks in between their own downhill runs.

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  116. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    You know, it used to be that employers who genuinely felt there were ‘critical shortages’ of a given worker would raise the salary for the job to get the slot filled. In fact, this is a part of how the system is supposed to most efficiently work. God forbid we expect ski slope owners to pay US wages to their workers, and/or hire US high school and college students for part-time lower pay work.

    Why the US people have bought into this ‘crops rotting’ nonsense shows how poorly educated most people are about issues like basic economics. It’s completely screwing most Americans while fattening the pockets of the 1%.

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  117. @Phatmaus
    For them it's a job, not a rite of passage adventure and not worth doing for ten bucks an hour.

    Vail pays 9 an hour. A high school drop out can earn 13 an hour at Wendy’s down the road. Vail pays their employees shit and treats them like shit. Lifties can’t take ride breaks anymore. Who the fuck wants to work on a mountain all day and not be able to ride? All locals hate Vail resorts. It’s their own God damn fault. Fuck Vail

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  118. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Mr. Anon

    Ever hear of SIC Codes? Stands for Standard INDUSTRIAL Classification Codes. Used by the federal government and many private companies to classify businesses.
     
    So? Doesn't make it right. I don't care what you think. Porn is not an "industry".

    Porn and televangelism are both industries, and, like the Motor City Madman and the Rubber City Ruminant, they may profess hatred for each other, but are more alike than either would admit.

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  119. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Hippopotamusdrome


    skiing *IS* a dying industry. ... The average age of a skier is now 38

     

    Then it would be stupid to import a bunch of immigrants to prop up an industry that will just keep shrinking. Unless the immigrants are going to learn to ski.

    Charlie don’t surf, and Hector isn’t big on skiing either.

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  120. Neoconned says:
    @PiltdownMan
    That's fine, as long as they are French, German, Italian or Swiss persons with actual experience of working on Alpine slopes.

    I simply can't believe that there is actually a shortage of labor, even at U.S. minimum wage. Being a ski-bum was a dream job for many in their late teens and twenties when I was that age. In fact, anybody who is a regular weekend skier daydreams of taking time off and living a life on the slopes. Unless American youth culture has changed a lot, I've got to imagine that there is still a huge potential supply of willing potential ski industry workers, as Steve implies with his headline.

    Heck, not just youths. The guy I rented a home from for a couple of years retired in his late fifties, sold the home and traded it in for a job and a small apartment in Squaw Valley.

    I have an idea & im being serious.

    Some on here have highlighted the “white squatter camps” in South Africa.

    Shit, bring em here. Better than getti g killed by the ANC vengeful killers

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  121. Travis says:

    https://downtrend.com/71superb/denver-decriminalizes-public-defecation-to-protect-illegal-aliens

    Denver Colorado is about to smell worse than a latrine. The city voted to decriminalize public urination and defecation and the reason is as liberal as it gets. The city is now becoming a giant toilet to help protect illegal aliens from deportation. Denver is not only a sanctuary city for criminal immigrant scumbags but also now a sanctuary for human waste.

    Denver City Council voted to lessen the penalties for certain crimes including whoring in public.
    Solicitation on or near street or highway has been decriminalized to protect illegals.

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  122. […] The “Ski Industry” doesn’t want to raise wages so they are looking for foreigners […]

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  123. @oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    Skiing is like farming in that there used to be tons of mom-and-pop mountains, offering "small" amenities at small prices.
    One after another, the small ones went out of business. Locally, there was a ski mountain located right next to a local outpost of Directional State. The College prided itself on it's winter/ski spirit and the mountain enjoyed the labor and good hearted ambiance. THEY went under.
    Many ski mountains (in New England, at least) are an odd mix of public and private. There are county owned, state owned and town owned ski mountains. Those can stay afloat because their finances are bolstered by other civil incomes. But increasingly it's Be Big or Be Gone

    This is so apparent that there's entire websights devoted to cataloging defunct ski mountains, for nostalgia and for ambitious go-getters to hike them for free

    http://www.nelsap.org/

    “Be Big or Be Gone”

    Because the Big Players have the political connections to get all the infrastructure they need to keep the flow of business coming through their doors as well as tax breaks mom and pop could only dream of. Oh, yeah … and a stream of foreign slave labor who will do the jobs the American kids won’t do because they can borrow more on their student loans to go to Cancun, where it isn’t so f’ing cold.

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  124. MEH 0910 says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/11/us/puerto-ricans-vote-on-the-question-of-statehood.html?_r=0

    23% of Puerto Ricans Vote in Referendum, 97% of Them for Statehood

    By FRANCES ROBLESJUNE 11, 2017

    SAN JUAN, P.R. — With schools shuttered, pensions at risk and the island under the authority of an oversight board in New York City, half a million Puerto Ricans voted overwhelmingly on Sunday to become America’s 51st state, in a flawed election most voters sat out.

    With nearly all of the precincts reporting, 97 percent of the ballots cast were in favor of statehood, a landslide critics said indicated that only statehood supporters had turned out to the polls. Opposition parties who prefer independence or remaining a territory boycotted the special election, which they considered rigged in favor of statehood.

    On an island where voter participation often hovers around 80 percent, just 23 percent of registered voters cast ballots. Voting stations accustomed to long lines were virtually empty on Sunday.

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  125. Thirdtwin says:
    @IHTG

    cre·du·li·ty
    krəˈd(y)o͞olədē/Submit
    noun
    a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true.
     
    https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/872775332163710976
    https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/872642307652235266

    And last week, the frame for Comey’s testimony was ” Trump will not use Executive Privilege to block Comey from testifying.”

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  126. Sparkon says:

    Earth’s climate has always changed. ‘Now we have ski bums and their attendants who are potential victims of climate change.

    It’s not the heat, it’s the humility!

    Earlier, Ötzi the Iceman’s luck ran out when someone shot him in the back with an arrow–good ol’ H. sapiens at it again–and the apparently subsequent rapid onset of climate change preserved his body for several thousand years.

    German tourists, Helmut and Erika Simon, accidentally discovered the body emerging from the ice near the Similaun Hut (Ötztaler Tyrolean Alps) after a period of marked ablation,helped by sunny weather and the deposition of Saharan dust on the glacier ice, that absorbed much of the solar radiation.

    The prehistoric mummified corpse – soon known worldwide as “Ötzi” the Iceman – together with its unique set of artefacts provided a unique opportunity for the research of a Copper-Age culture in the European Alps.

    But the body and the artefacts provided also insights on the glaciers during the little known warm phases of the Holocene in Europe. [...]

    During the last glacial maximum some 18.000 years ago the entire area of the Ötztaler Alps was almost completely ice-covered [...]

    A second trim line is marked by an abrupt change in lichen diameter (from 100mm above to 40mm below) and density. The dating by lichenometry attributes this glaciers (sic) to the Little Ice Age (LIA, ca. in the years 1.600-1.850), which generally corresponds to the maximum Holocene glacier expansion.

    The mummy itself was dated by radiocarbon dating to 4.500…-5.050 yr B.P. The relatively sudden burial of the corpse in a more or less permanent snow and ice cover indicates a significant climatic change that induced glacier expansion at the beginning of the Neoglaciation in the second half of the Holocene.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/history-of-geology/september-19-1991-the-iceman-natural-history/

    (my crafty emphasis)

    “No mention of any skis found around Ötzi, however. Just an arrow in the back. No surprise prolly about the skis, because they didn’t do that during the Copper Age, as far as I know.

    But arrows in the back? Yeah, they did that.

    And we know about it all because of climate change.

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  127. Lurker says:
    @Dieter Kief

    20-25 years ago, the climateer alarmists assured us that global warming spelled doom and downsizing–if not an end (“the end of snow”)–to the ski industry, everywhere, and soon
     
    Things look pretty clear if you look at the Black Forrest in Germany or the Toggenburg in the pre-alps of eastern Switzerland: Things have changed quite impressively. Lots of lifts and Hotels closed.

    As a rule of thumb: Ski resorts in Switzerland the base-stations of which are below 1500 meters are in big troubles now and lots (lots!) of glaciers will soon be gone.

    Not a single Swiss glacier is as big as it was hundred years ago. – If this is not global warming, there must be something else going on. And with quite an effect.

    The retreat after the Little Ice Age?

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  128. Lurker says:
    @Stan Adams
    Having lived in Miami all of my life, I can add nothing to this discussion.

    OT: In my experience, older native-born English-speaking Americans fleeing Miami go to North Carolina, or elsewhere in Florida. (Quite a few people I know, including my uncle, have moved to Port St. Lucie.) Sometimes I wonder whether or not the folks in North Carolina regard Miamians with the same scorn that Coloradans seem to reserve for Californians.

    You know, I have to confess that I listen to a lot of Spanish-language music - Julio Iglesias and the like. I've been known to eat picadillo for dinner. I support a total ban on immigration, but I've spent too much of my life around immigrants to feel any real hatred for them.

    I know an awful lot of Jewish folks, too. Most of my acquaintances have at least one Jewish grandparent.

    Who said anything about hatred?

    The only hatred seems to be the righteous anger new (and not so new) non-white arrivals are supposed to feel about your white privilege.

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  129. ATBOTL says:
    @anonymous-antimarxist
    One last consequence of hiring H-2Bs and illegals for food service and housekeeping is that the major resorts are mostly dead as far as night life goes, except maybe for the most elite clubs that have doormen to keep the workers along middle class and prole skiers out.

    At most resorts at least what under payed American staff they may have has to slump back to a town 20-30 miles from the ski hill to enjoy some entertainment.

    In order to maximize real estate profits the major resorts torn down all of their close by accommodations for staff decades ago along with most budget hotels . That means that workers and younger folks have to catch a bus back to a town miles away.

    Ski areas that once had lots of healthy young people roaming the streets are often dead at night.

    Young man, thinking about running into that pretty blond girl who might have served you a hamburger at lunch? Dream on........

    One of the best comments I’ve read in a while. This absence of young, fun white Americans from resort and leisure settings is one of most creepy and pathetic things about modern globalized cuckmerica.

    You have so many bars, even “nightclubs” in these places now that are mostly empty on a Sat. night, with only a few old people plus maybe some Asian or Middle Eastern immigrants and an all third world staff. They have the atmosphere of a funeral reception. Don’t the boomers notice this?

    This is such a worthless society, it’s going down harder than old people realize.

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  130. @Stan Adams
    Having lived in Miami all of my life, I can add nothing to this discussion.

    OT: In my experience, older native-born English-speaking Americans fleeing Miami go to North Carolina, or elsewhere in Florida. (Quite a few people I know, including my uncle, have moved to Port St. Lucie.) Sometimes I wonder whether or not the folks in North Carolina regard Miamians with the same scorn that Coloradans seem to reserve for Californians.

    You know, I have to confess that I listen to a lot of Spanish-language music - Julio Iglesias and the like. I've been known to eat picadillo for dinner. I support a total ban on immigration, but I've spent too much of my life around immigrants to feel any real hatred for them.

    I know an awful lot of Jewish folks, too. Most of my acquaintances have at least one Jewish grandparent.

    Hatred has nothing to do with it. There are countless people that I like personally that I do not want living in my house. Not wanting your country overrun with tens of millions of foreigners does not mean you hate them.

    Many of these endless foreigner hordes are wonderful people. They have a home: Mexico, Brazil, etc. On the other hand, we have the Haitians.

    “Hate” is now a word of the left – it is meant to say that your opinions are irrational. That your opposition to anything they support derives from mindless emotion and evil.

    I also live in Miami. The assholish driving, the ceaseless horn-blowing, the medicare scams, the flagrant disregard for basic order…these are all the price of our wonderful immigrants. On the plus side we have vaca frita.

    And of course the turnpike is clogged clear up past Jupiter because we can never have enough people…More more more. A billion or bust should be our national motto.

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    I also live in Miami. The assholish driving, the ceaseless horn-blowing, the medicare scams, the flagrant disregard for basic order…these are all the price of our wonderful immigrants. On the plus side we have vaca frita.
     
    Yep. The Miami drivers are something you have to see to believe.

    An Aussie lady of my acquaintance lived down here for a few months. Having toured the entire United States, she told me that our drivers were the worst in America, if not the world.

    (The first time she drove somewhere on her own, she had a nervous breakdown trying to navigate the Golden Glades Interchange.)

    She called me after a particularly harrowing experience and screamed, "What the f--- is wrong with these people? They come up behind you so fast and get so close that you think they're gonna hit you, then they swerve into another lane and speed past you, then they swerve right back in front of you, then they swerve in front of the car in the lane next to you, then they swerve back in front of you and another car while trying to cross two lanes at once ... what the f---?!?"
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  131. @Neil Templeton
    True enough that catastrophic outcomes resulting from marginal changes complicates the analysis. And since many climate terror advocates insist upon assigning very high probabilities, even certainty, to catastrophic outcomes, total shut down of GG emissions is rational despite very high expected costs. Under these circumstances, analytic resolution of the contested issues may be impossible.

    No need to give in to the alarmists – and no need to give in to the science- (and plain eysight!) deniers as well.
    Cool (ehe) head is (as so often…) needed.

    My little scene about the future – and present – of the debate: If you’d be sitting in a car and would be told, that this car is by a 5% chance likely to hit a concrete wall fifty years from now with 50 miles/hr – should you relax and just keep going on?

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  132. @William Badwhite
    Hatred has nothing to do with it. There are countless people that I like personally that I do not want living in my house. Not wanting your country overrun with tens of millions of foreigners does not mean you hate them.

    Many of these endless foreigner hordes are wonderful people. They have a home: Mexico, Brazil, etc. On the other hand, we have the Haitians.

    "Hate" is now a word of the left - it is meant to say that your opinions are irrational. That your opposition to anything they support derives from mindless emotion and evil.

    I also live in Miami. The assholish driving, the ceaseless horn-blowing, the medicare scams, the flagrant disregard for basic order...these are all the price of our wonderful immigrants. On the plus side we have vaca frita.

    And of course the turnpike is clogged clear up past Jupiter because we can never have enough people...More more more. A billion or bust should be our national motto.

    I also live in Miami. The assholish driving, the ceaseless horn-blowing, the medicare scams, the flagrant disregard for basic order…these are all the price of our wonderful immigrants. On the plus side we have vaca frita.

    Yep. The Miami drivers are something you have to see to believe.

    An Aussie lady of my acquaintance lived down here for a few months. Having toured the entire United States, she told me that our drivers were the worst in America, if not the world.

    (The first time she drove somewhere on her own, she had a nervous breakdown trying to navigate the Golden Glades Interchange.)

    She called me after a particularly harrowing experience and screamed, “What the f— is wrong with these people? They come up behind you so fast and get so close that you think they’re gonna hit you, then they swerve into another lane and speed past you, then they swerve right back in front of you, then they swerve in front of the car in the lane next to you, then they swerve back in front of you and another car while trying to cross two lanes at once … what the f—?!?”

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