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From the New York Times:

The Education of Ellen Pao
By JENNIFER SZALAI SEPT. 19, 2017

RESET: My Fight for Inclusion and Lasting Change
By Ellen K. Pao
274 pp. Spiegel & Grau. $28

There’s a particular kind of resentment that can fester when a self-described rule follower feels she did everything right only to be thwarted by unwritten rules that feel arbitrary and wrong. In “Reset: My Fight for Inclusion and Lasting Change,” Ellen K. Pao traces a journey of disillusionment that culminated in the lawsuit she brought against her employer, the white-shoe venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, for gender discrimination. …

The chapters on the early years of her career trace auspicious beginnings at Princeton, and then at Harvard Law School and a job at a white-shoe law firm.

What does “white-shoe firm” mean?

Apparently, it comes from white bucks, which were shoes popular with young people in the Catcher in the Rye era. The Oxford English Dictionary traces the phrase “white-shoe college boys” back to J.D. Salinger’s 1957 novel Franny and Zooey.

These Brooks Brothers white bucks cost $248.

Did I ever own any? My staffer John Neilson (1962-1999, RIP) taught me to shop at Brooks Brothers in the mid-1980s, so maybe I bought some?

William Safire explained in 1997:

… And in 1990, The Independent of London asked, ”Is [Michael] Milken the victim of a vengeful plot by the white-shoe boys of the securities business, all those nice Harvard graduates in loafers who sit in the more conventional brokerage houses?”

Apparently, “white-shoe” implies anti-Semitic.

You can track it back in print to the mid-70′s. … The word is better defined in Webster’s New World Dictionary as ”designating or characteristic of a business company, esp. a law firm or brokerage, in which the partners belong almost exclusively to the WASP upper-class elite and are thought of as being cautious and conservative.”

The source is white ”bucks,” the casual, carefully scuffed buckskin shoes with red rubber soles and heels worn by generations of college men at Ivy League schools.

But when do you wear them? Not after Labor Day, of course, but when do you start? Memorial Day? Easter? So they would seem more like something that Ivy Leaguers would wear to, say, a Fourth of July party at the yacht club than would wear at school.

Many of these kids, supposedly never changing their beloved footgear, went on to become masters of the universe on Wall Street and in the best-known law firms.

Presumably, partners at white-shoe firms never wear white shoes to work, which is one reason the term is confusing.

The other reason is that it has to be distinguished from the Full Cleveland look of white shoes and white belt or the Half Cleveland of one or the other.

Do not get confused and wear white shoes to your job interview at a white-shoe firm, even if it is in Cleveland.

Perhaps commenter Slumber j could tell us whether his old Harvard classmate Buddy Fletcher, Ellen Pao’s gay black husband, wore white bucks. I should hope so.

By the way, I still haven’t found a non-Photoshopped picture of Ellen and Buddy in the same frame.

The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring.

 
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  1. Coemgen says:

    Maybe the reference to “white shoes” is an anti-Catholic dog-whistle. Every Catholic boy who’s made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.
    , @Pat Boyle
    I don't think I ever wore white bucks. Possibly that's because I wear size 16 and therefore don't have as much choice in footwear as some others do.
    , @Rubicon
    https://www.spartareport.com/2017/09/americans-show-hollywood-liberal-elite-think-summer-movie-attendance-25-year-low/

    Summer movie attendance is at a 25 year low. I saw Guardians of the Galaxy & Alien whatever this summer.

    ==
    Can a handful of titles — It, Kingsman 2, Bladerunner 2, Thor 3, Justice League, Star Wars 8 — save an entire year? Doubtful. Pull out of a dive? Maybe. Still, we are talking about only six big titles over four months,
    ==

    Of those big titles the only ones I'm vaguely interested in are Star Wars and Bladerunner -- Justice League a tiny tiny bit....
    , @AnotherDad

    Every Catholic boy who’s made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.
     
    I don't know what counts as "traditional" but I sure didn't wear white shoes for my First Holy Communion. The *girls* were in their white dresses and i'd guess white shoes. (I'm not gay enough to pay much attention to female footware--just not where my eyes aim when looking at girls.) But we boys were all in our normal Sunday suits with normal black or brown dress shoes. (Reminder to me--should get my dads' slides digitized. But I've seen the pic.)

    Now I can't claim to be any sort of canonical Catholic. But this was 50+ in the Midwest, in a middle-to-upper-middle class (skilled tradesmen, contractors, GE engineers, middle managers) parish. Not ritzy but a bit better off than typical Catholic parish in the 60s. We wouldn't have been skimping if there was some real tradition to uphold.

    Generally girls get fancy clothes for special one-off occasions. Guys just dress nicely. This is one of those nice little sex differences in life that is reasonable (girls care more) and pleasant.

    If there's been some sort of change and Catholic boys are now having to dress up in white suits and shoes then the gays really have taken charge of the joint.
    , @2Mintzin1
    "Every Catholic boy who’s made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes."

    Nope. Blue suits & black shoes were In when I was 7 years old. I remember thinking that I looked pretty sharp, if memory serves. The crew cut hair really set off the outfit. :)

    White shoe law firm is really just a reference to the Old Partners, who were permitted to wear a white patent leather shoes and a white belt after May.

    , @The Alarmist
    White-Shoe is code for Wall Street WASP. I used to work with an old partner who, in the summer season, would come to the office in a Seersucker Suit, white shoes, and a straw hat. He was probably old enough to have been a young buck in the business in the crash of 1929.
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  2. Jill says:

    The answer to this dilemma is to change your baby daughters to males. You can now start that age 3:

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    The international guidelines, just released by the Endocrine Society, are expected to dramatically alter medical care for transgender children around the globe.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages–444259043.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @namae nanka
    They need to start in the womb, by the time children are born it's already too late for testosterone equality.
    , @27 year old
    Probably going to be on the syllabus for a lot of "STEM" fluff courses about women in technology. Good business idea would be to create some cliff's notes and sell them for $1 on a clean looking website with a picture of a purple haired sjw as the author bio.
    , @Pat Boyle
    I think Rush Limbaugh first described the operation as an "addadicktome" (say it fast).
    , @Joe Schmoe
    That is just evil.
    , @Brutusale
    There's a doctor at my girlfriend's hospital early in on the whole trans thing, doing facial feminization surgery and hormone therapy back in the mid-80s. Fast forward 30 years, and the girlfriend has a tranny on her patient roster pretty much every day. Her quote was "And this is medicine?!"
    , @AnotherDad

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines
     
    Open child abuse.

    PC is like some sort of weird infectious disease. You get it and then you can no longer engage in any sort of rational thought. Here it has infected "medicine" so that "medicine" is doing anti-medicine, abusing children.

    The most obvious thing about any of this childhood sexual confusion stuff is ... "let the kid go through puberty and it often will get sorted out".
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  3. Hunsdon says:

    Ms Szalai’s opening paragraph reminded me of Hillary.

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    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Ms Szalai’s opening paragraph reminded me of Hillary.
     
    I wasn't specifically thinking Hillary, but this

    There’s a particular kind of resentment that can fester when a self-described rule follower feels she did everything right only to be thwarted by unwritten rules that feel arbitrary and wrong.
     
    definitely struck me same way.

    Ellen Pao strikes me as having an incredible--and somewhat female--sense of entitlement. She seems to think that she did X,Y and Z and therefore ... she is entitled to be an insanely rich master of the universe. Huh?

    If she feels Kleiner-Perkins didn't treat her well or wasn't promoting her fast enough (has anyone ever thought their employer appreciated them properly?), then take it elsewhere. If Kleiner-Perkins is actually wrong, and Ellen is really a super-duper rainmaker then she should land somewhere else, or if she's really all that, open her own shop. Just do it.

    But a lot of people--and it seems a huge chunk of "well-educated" women--really seem to think that if they dot their i's and cross their t's that they are entitled to stuff. Not by actually creating stuff themselves ... but just by showing up. Hillary was--"incompetent" really isn't fair but "mediocre" is more than fair--mediocre at the functional part of every job she held, while climbing the greasy pole and seemed to believe that qualified her to be President of the United States.

    Ellen Pao seems to think she was entitled to all sorts of goodies at Kleiner-Perkins ... just because. And seems to continue to think that somehow her not having said goodies is some sort of great moral crisis that the rest of us should pay attention to.

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  4. Steve-o says:

    She works for (((Mitch Kapor))) and (((Freada Kapor Klein))) now.

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  5. I am a lawyer. No lawyers wear white shoes. Anywhere. Ever.

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    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Replies: @Eric Ruttencutter
    Since my initial post, I did remember an attorney who wore white shoes. He was a personal injury/workers compensation lawyer with an ad on the back cover of the Yellow Pages about 25 years ago. He wore polyester suits and a toupee. He also had some ethical issues with the Bar as I recall. I don't think this is the image the writer here is seeking to invoke.
    , @JimB
    Only nurses, cafeteria workers, and Tom Wolfe wear white shoes.
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  6. That’s not at all what I always pictured a white-shoe law firm to be. I thought white shoe was like white tie: even fancier than black tie. I imagined very rich lawyers dressed in tuxedos out of a Merchant Ivory Production. The fact that I’d never seen any of those white patent leather shoes just showed how unimagineably high class those lawyers are.

    But it’s really just some casual preppy style? I’m so disappointed.

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    • Agree: Desiderius
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  7. I think you used to be able to buy them at the Tom McCan shoe chain for ~$25. It definitely was a college-boy thing. And white-shoe law firms meant they didn’t hire jew lawyers. I know it’a stretch for Steve but in those days anti-jew sentiment was alive and flourishing. The jews didn’t invent it; they were seeing the world clearly as it was. By “those days” I am referring to 1945 to the late 50′s of my personal experience. I don’t sense any intrinsic maleficient tendency in your soul, but you do not have your head screwed on right about the jews.

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    • Replies: @Simon in London
    " I am referring to 1945 to the late 50′s of my personal experience."

    Three score and ten years ago...
    , @AnotherDad

    And white-shoe law firms meant they didn’t hire jew lawyers. I know it’a stretch for Steve but in those days anti-jew sentiment was alive and flourishing. The jews didn’t invent it; they were seeing the world clearly as it was.
     
    Uh ... so what?

    Don't want to speak for Steve, but I don't think he or anyone is denying "anti-Semitism" or negative perceptions of Jews. (Although the exact claims in many cases--like the Golfocaust--might be more complicated, exaggerated or flat out bogus.)

    But--and this is the part that Jews just don't seem to wrap their heads around:

    --> People are naturally "groupish". They like being part of a group and being with/around people like them. (Who speak the same language, share the same values, have the same culture.)

    --> The Jews themselves are *super-groupish*. Historically perhaps the most tribal people in the civilized world. They're spent 2000+ in diaspora specifically refusing to integrate into their surrounding communities. They have their own tribal religion. With a bunch of rules and practices specifically to discourage any socialization with us grubby goyim and enforce tribal endogamy. (It's actually Western gentiles who developed non-tribal and uniquely open national cultures--so open it's killing us now!)


    So there were "white-shoe" law firms where well-heeled WASPs who went to the right schools would hire young well-heeled WASPs who went to the right schools to represent businesses owned by well-heeled WASPs who went to the right schools. And they didn't find those graspy upstart Jews to be "their kind of people". Ok.

    You telling me I couldn't find Jewish law firms? That I can't find Jewish businesses and Jewish run organizations who hire with a strong hint of ethnic-nepotism--not just then, but right now?


    WASP country clubs 100 years back that didn't or tended not to admit Jews--not "their kind of people" --> "Anti-Semitism!"

    The Century Country Club today --> "well um, uh ... its nice to be able to get together and socialize with people with shared values and the common experience of discrimination"


    The Jews basic demand is
    --> our stuff is our stuff
    --> your stuff ... should be open to Jews.

    Jewish in-group discrimination--tribal solidarity!
    Gentile in-group discrimination--"racism!", "Anti-Semitism!"

    Sorry, but I just don't find this whole Jewish narrative very compelling. You want to be a separate tribe--great! But no one else has to love you nor treat you like you haven't separated yourself off.
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  8. namae nanka says: • Website
    @Jill
    The answer to this dilemma is to change your baby daughters to males. You can now start that age 3:

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    The international guidelines, just released by the Endocrine Society, are expected to dramatically alter medical care for transgender children around the globe.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages--444259043.html

    They need to start in the womb, by the time children are born it’s already too late for testosterone equality.

    Read More
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  9. I have mostly heard of “white shoe boys” from the rantings of one Gerald Celentre in reference to Wall Street finance medium-shots. Mr. Celentre used to be quoted or appear on ZeroHedge, but he makes the ZeroHedge “Tyler Durdens” appear to be Pollyannas in comparison, and his big pay-off line is “when people have nothing to lose, they lose it.” I’ve only worn these type of shoes when bowling, and they didn’t help my score one bit.

    By the way, I still haven’t found a non-Photoshopped picture of Ellen and Buddy in the same frame.

    Now, THAT’s back to the funny Steve we haven’t read for a while!

    Now, I’ve also heard of the “green eyeshade guys”. They are bookkeepers and accountants, and the term came from before the computer age, when they would wear pairs of green-tinted lenses that would keep the glare off the paperwork.

    I knew a Wall Street accountant back in the day who came from a pretty well-to-do Boston family, from over behind Fenway park or something. Funny thing was, he was colored: He was one of those rare blue-blooded black, white-shoe, green-eyeshade boys, though he was a different shade altogether when the coppers found his slashed body in a culvert underneath A-3 taxiway over at Logan. The police report said he was wicked colored.

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  10. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Reminds me of Kevin Phillips’ distinction between a “white shoes Republican” and a “cloth-coat Republican” (the latter exemplified by his old boss, Richard M. Nixon).

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  11. I’m looking forward to someone here arguing that the wearing of white shoes is genetically encoded into Anglo-Saxon DNA but the tyrannical Normans forbade them. That’s why the Anglo-Saxons had to flee the Old World and listen to the call of blood, the siren song to wear white shoes and pink (so-called “Nantucket red”) trousers.

    Anthony Weiner knows how to wear a pair of Nantucket reds. Does that make him a WASP? No. Jerry Lee Lewis wore white shoes. Did that make him a WASP? I say “no” but the DNA gang would say “yes”.

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    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    If m'lord Beast would care to reflect for a moment .. he would doubtless recall a Better Age, when all cricketing clobber was white. Including the boots/shoes.
    https://hornetshire.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/hornets-for-vintage-cricket-boots/
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  12. OT:

    Trump could dispel any remaining concerns about just how Republican he really is, and how closely he’s tied to the Alt-Right, by reviving the Wide Awakes:

    The Wide Awakes was a teen and young adult organization cultivated by the Republican Party during the 1860 presidential election in the United States. Using popular social events, an ethos of competitive fraternity, and even promotional comic books, the organization introduced many to political participation and proclaimed themselves the newfound voice of younger voters. The structured, militant Wide Awakes appealed to a generation profoundly shaken by the partisan instability of the 1850s and offered young northerners a much-needed political identity.
    ….
    Uniform and tactics
    The standard Wide Awake uniform consisted of a full robe or cape, a black glazed hat, and a torch six feet in length to which a large, flaming, pivoting whale-oil container was mounted. Its activities were conducted primarily in the evening and consisted of several night-time torch-lit marches through cities in the northeast and border states. The Wide Awakes adopted the image of a large eyeball as their standard banner.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Awakes

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  13. @Jill
    The answer to this dilemma is to change your baby daughters to males. You can now start that age 3:

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    The international guidelines, just released by the Endocrine Society, are expected to dramatically alter medical care for transgender children around the globe.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages--444259043.html

    Probably going to be on the syllabus for a lot of “STEM” fluff courses about women in technology. Good business idea would be to create some cliff’s notes and sell them for $1 on a clean looking website with a picture of a purple haired sjw as the author bio.

    Read More
    • Replies: @27 year old

    [Pao's book] is probably going to be on the syllabus for a lot of “STEM” fluff courses about women in technology. Good business idea would be to create some cliff’s notes and sell them for $1 on a clean looking website with a picture of a purple haired sjw as the author bio.

     

    That was meant as a reply to Steve's original post, not to @jill . Edit function seems to be on vacation again.
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  14. @27 year old
    Probably going to be on the syllabus for a lot of "STEM" fluff courses about women in technology. Good business idea would be to create some cliff's notes and sell them for $1 on a clean looking website with a picture of a purple haired sjw as the author bio.

    [Pao's book] is probably going to be on the syllabus for a lot of “STEM” fluff courses about women in technology. Good business idea would be to create some cliff’s notes and sell them for $1 on a clean looking website with a picture of a purple haired sjw as the author bio.

    That was meant as a reply to Steve’s original post, not to @jill . Edit function seems to be on vacation again.

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  15. I think they just want to use the term “white” in a negative manner. It’s not brain surgery.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kylie
    Exactly.

    I doubt the equally elitist phrase "black tie" will be used by the progs
    as disdainfully as "white shoe".
    , @a Newsreader
    Indeed, this is the deliberate commission of a microaggression. Leftists behave like this, and they psychologically project that behavior onto their political opponents, who remain bemused by the accusation.
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  16. Trash says:

    The wikipedia is partly correct. Back in the day (40′s and 50′s) law firms and investment banks in NYC were divided up by religion. Just like country clubs. There were WASPy firms (Cadwallader Wickersham & Taft), Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own. Same with investment banks: Morgan Stanley vs Goldman Sachs vs Cantor Fitzgerald (Cantor Fitz is a bank now, I think back then they were just bond traders).

    Mostly that’s gone, but there may be traces. I bet you have a slight edge applying at Goldman today if you have a recognizably Jewish name, but again, slight. Even in the 80s they weren’t overt about it, but there were cultural things. When I worked at Donovan a lot of guys had been in the Marines, and they all had their medals and ribbons framed on the wall. I doubt that was a thing at Proskauer. Or Donovan had the “tea ladies,” who were OSS or military widows who would come around with a cart and bring you tea and cookies in the afternoon. That was Wild Bill’s boondoggle to take care of his guys’ widows while reminding everybody what was really important. Some people loved that culture, others not so much. There were Jewish guys at Donovan, but they were guys who were comfortable being around the other culture.

    And while there were culturally distinct firms, there were also ones that were mixes. Anderson Kill never had an identity like that.

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    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    We need to hear more from you.
    , @Opinionator
    Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own.

    No one ever criticizes Jewish firms for being Jewish, for preferring Jews, or for excluding Gentiles.

    , @hhsiii
    Yeah, when I was in law school in the late 80s there was a book about the various New York Firms, what they paid, what they specialized in, which ones were culturally jewish, catholic (I think Cahill had irish guys), etc. The guy who wrote it was jewish, and he pointed out that the jewish firms had wasps, wasp firms had jews. But he said if you went back far enough back in the day old wasp firms might have jews but they would have been back in the stacks, i.e., not partners usually.

    He made a funny line about Parker Chapin or Phillips Nizer being more a polyester suit firm.

    My dad was in-house at Walter Kidde, Inc., the conglomerate that took its cash-cow fire extinguisher business and bought a bunch of companies like universal weightlifting, jacuzzi, etc, trying to buy growth. They used Donovan Leisure and to your point, yes, Sandy Litvak was there at the time. he became general counsel at Disney. What my dad liked about Donovan Leisure was they never became one of the mega-sized international firms like Skadden. Mid-sized and you'd know the folks you were dealing with.

    Pao worked at Cravath. Epitome of white shoe.

    I never thought that it meant white bucks. I went to a Debevoise and Plimpton party once. I was telling the jewish clerk for a judge (I was a summer intern) and said Debevoyz, and he said don't you know it's pronounced Debevwah (like french). I said you're wrong and he laughed at me. I'm sure someone ultimately set him straight. What a tool.

    Anyway, at that party there were a couple of nattily dressed partners who absolutely wore white, patent leather shoes with their suit. So I always assumed it meant what it said. White bucks? Most of the ivy league wasps I knew wore topsiders out of the office.

    , @scrivener3
    So true. I worked for a white shoe firm, not so high flying as Cravath but very old school. They had free pastries Monday and Fri served on silver platters in the conference room. Breakfast ended at about 10:00 to keep people from slacking off near the weekend.

    Once they got you in there no one would dare go home before 9:00 pm

    Ethnic nepotism was pretty much gone by 1980. Being a Slavic / Pollack, I never wold have been considered earlier but by my time top half of class at a top law school or law review at almost any good law school got you in. Particularly in the go-go late 1980's early 90's

    I think the term refers to the bucks.From Wiki

    The Oxford English Dictionary cites the phrase "white-shoe college boys" in the J. D. Salinger novel Franny and Zooey (1957) as the first use of the term.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. I enjoy comments like this.
    , @scrivener3

    Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own.
     
    It wasn't just happier staying with their own. The WASP's were here first and they built these . . . Institutions, powerful law firms, country clubs, summer home enclaves, banks.

    Newcomers like Catholics and Jews often did not have as much polish and were not welcome in those institutions. So the sharper newcomers built their own parallel institutions. When Lebanese Jews were unwelcome in the tonier NJ shore communities, they bought up Deal and turned it into a even more luxurious community. When Ridgewood, NJ excluded some, the richer of the some built Wyckoff.

    When my wife and I looked for a home in the Hamptons (known by me from summer shares with Wall St co-workers) the real estate agent showed us a barn and said there was nothing else on the market. There was exclusion and the natural reaction to exclusion was making you own.

    Wachtell Lipton (not white shoe) outdid Cravath in every way, in part by taking on takeover work. A proper WASP would never try to undermine a man's livelihood just to make a buck. The buck in takeover work was so large, Scadden Arps (white shoe, counsel to Citicorp) became number two.
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  17. Horseball says:

    i think the better etymology is from wearing white spats, not white bucks.

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    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Jack D
    No one but you seems to think so. All the sources point to college footwear at Ivy Schools. Apparently, at one time, in addition to "white shoe", there was also brown and black. Black shoe would be nerds, Jews, commuters and other undesirables - the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder). Brown shoes were in the middle - not the social elite but not in the untouchable category either, just your average Joe.

    This article is from 1953:

    http://www.ivy-style.com/russell-lynes-on-the-shoe-hierarchy-esquire-1953.html

    The OED citation for Salinger is just plain wrong - the term was known and printed well before Salinger.

    Footwear really is a very telling social indicator, even today. One thing that I have noticed that has not been remarked upon is that when you see two teenage or pre-teen girls together who are friends, they will be wearing identical footwear 9 times out of 10. Their clothing styles will be similar but the shoes will be EXACTLY the same. Watch for it - you'll be amazed how true this is.
    , @Desiderius
    It was my sense that the term is Gatsby-era.

    Akin to white-tie.
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  18. Have you ever woken up in the morning and thought to yourself, “gee, I wonder if the tech business world is including Ellen K. Pao enough” well then do I have the book for you!

    Read More
    • LOL: Kylie
    • Replies: @Anon
    I'm always amazed that you can find some retarded editor willing to give large sums of money to some callow adventuress ala Ellen Pao or Hillary Clinton (adventuress is all Clinton has ever been) for books that the editor knows darn well won't sell. Of course, my cynical side suspects that a deal was stuck for the 'celebrity' to buy enough copies to pay off the book's production costs, and to force the book up the charts enough to keep the editor for being fired for financial stupidity
    , @Father O'Hara
    If one were to wake up in the morning thinking of Ellen Pao it is quite safe to assume one would not,as they say,be waking up with wood.
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  19. slumber_j says:

    Perhaps commenter Slumber j could tell us whether his old Harvard classmate Buddy Fletcher, Ellen Pao’s gay black husband, wore white bucks.

    I don’t remember, although it wouldn’t have been at all out of character. There were lots and lots of bow ties, for example. And of course he was in Navy ROTC (at MIT, since Harvard didn’t do that back then), so there was definitely some white-shoe wearing in connection with that. In the Navy!!

    Buddy’s failure to make good on his ROTC service obligation to the US Armed Forces might have served as a warning sign to, say, the pension managers of Louisiana and Massachusetts when they were doing whatever due diligence they may or may not have done on his hedge fund back in the day. Evidently it didn’t: “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” I guess.

    What you wear in the non-summer months if your a wearer of that sort of thing are dirty bucks, FYI: http://www.orvis.com/p/white-dirty-bucks/06l0

    By the way, my Harvard 30th Reunion spam has been especially rich, even by the increasingly grotesque standards of that institution. We’re invited to apply or nominate others for, I guess, TED-like talks about ourselves and Harvard, for example. Fun.

    If I were going to attend this or any other reunion, I would propose myself for a talk: “Three World-Class Swindlers I Met at Harvard.” In declining order of swindling power the three are:

    Viktor Kožený — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Kožený

    Florian Homm — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian_Homm

    Buddy Fletcher — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Fletcher

    Florian was actually a pretty good friend of mine and a thoroughly amusing guy. Viktor I knew a bit: he got thrown out of Florian’s and my Final Club for stealing booze and–as it turned out–not having actually gone through the formality of matriculating at Harvard College. As I think I’ve said here before, I avoided Buddy at least as studiously as anything else I did there.

    Anyway, it’s funny that I knew those guys at Harvard–not to mention Bank of England Governor Mark Carney.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    No (American) naval uniform includes white shoes; so far as I know, none ever has. Just as well, too, because now they would just have to be banned for being racist, anyway.
    , @bomag

    We’re invited to apply or nominate others for, I guess, TED-like talks about ourselves and Harvard, for example.
     
    One could do some delicious trolling if chosen to speak: "The astonishing genetic advances in plant and animal science and why Harvard should help in a similar genetic advancement of humans."; "The important distinction between White nationalism and White supremacy and why Harvard should care", etc.
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  20. The Z Blog says: • Website

    Ha. This is definitely a northeast term. You hear it with regards to law firms and financial houses, mostly. Maybe it used to mean WASP in the narrow sense, but today it means something closer to “deep state” or maybe ruling class.

    If you catch on at a white shoe firm out of law school, it means you have a chance to work with the ruling elite and possibly join them. White shoe firms always have offices in the power centers of the world and they take on the most important clients.

    I’ve never heard the term applied to VC shops. Even so, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers is a local yokel, in the view of New York money. They may as well be working from a double wide in the Ozarks.

    Maybe Mx. Pao is guilty of cultural appropriation here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @scrivener3
    I have to disagree. No one achieves power by being a service person to the powerful. They know your place and expect you to.

    Even the greatest criminal defense lawyers, saving your bacon from the worst possible fate, are never welcomed into the circles of the powerful. Instead they are like cowboys. Independent, well compensated, slightly disreputable.

    Connected political individuals can get a lot of clients for a firm they move into. Think former attorney general of the US moving to a white shoe wall street law firm and bringing in the bucks. But good lawyer can be purchased for money.

    A lawyer who achieves public fame, like David Boise, maybe gets invited socially based on his fame. Like a famous chef or a famous doctor, but who ever would think that chefs and doctors are the deep state.
    , @Joe Schmoe

    Mx. Pao
     
    lol

    that is priceless
    , @Brutusale
    Neal Stephenson, in my estimation a pretty sharp guy, used the term in reference to a SoCal law firm in his novel Cryptonomicon.
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  21. Erik L says:

    My Jewish dad wore white bucks in his youth. they were his favorite shoes and he gave me the impression that among teens of his generation they were the analog of sneakers or maybe docksiders to mine. I’m pretty sure they were worn year round but definitely casual.

    WRT Pao’s whole idea that following the rules entitles you to the rewards…no. Necessary to a point but not sufficient

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    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @res

    WRT Pao’s whole idea that following the rules entitles you to the rewards…no. Necessary to a point but not sufficient
     
    This is a key point. The idea these days seems to be affirmative action to get in the door followed by what you describe. Accompanied by various levels of riding the affirmative action rocket ship towards the top (regardless of performance) along the way.
    , @Brutusale
    Following the rules? Having an affair with a partner at your firm may be, to use a Steve term, a way for an adventuress to get into the club, but it isn't following the rules.
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  22. Why does everyone want to create lasting change (which seems a bit of a contradiction), in MY country? Go back to China,go to Africa,go even to the black ghetto,create lasting change there.
    What’s the matter? Not enough spare…change?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    She is too ugly and too too miserable because of her inability to attract and reproduce with one of her own kind. No Chinese man wants her. With Chinese women, the pretty ones find a rich husband and have an easy life while the ugly ones unable to attracted the opposite sex occupy their free time going to school and studying. You will find with Chinese women,the uglier the face more highly educated they are.
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  23. See also:

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  24. Stogumber says:

    From what I read it seems that “white shoe” was a mild ethnical slur Jews invented against non-cooperative WASPs. But fortunately I see that the new “white shoe law firms” include:
    “Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel[40]
    Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison[42][43]”
    So it may become outdated, as Ellen Pao.

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  25. The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring.

    Who are the others?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Laurene Jobs (neé Powell) comes to mind.

    The sisters Wojcicki, Elizabeth Holmes, Zoe Quinn, Gabi Holzwarth, Sheryl Sandberg, and engineering genius Angela Ahrendts all deserve at least a mention.

    I could write a long list indeed off the top of my dome, as the hip-hoppers say. Do pay attention, old bean, after all, many of (((them))) share your values, n'pas?
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    Although I cannot name them, I've followed the stories of these other female buccaneers over the years and I've seen their pictures. Usually they are blonde and willowy, ultra-schicksas. Put Pao and them at opposite ends of any upscale bar and it's easy to predict which end would empty out and which fill up. I think it unusually chivalrous of Mr. Sailer that his quote did not read, "The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring and also the ugliest."
    , @biz
    Assuming Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos, and the Wojicki sisters.
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  26. Danindc says:

    You had a staffer and shopped at Brooks Brothers???
    Is this an anti-pledge drive post?

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  27. Danindc says:

    This is the best white shoes video

    Great movie. Very underrated.

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  28. Jack D says:
    @Coemgen
    Maybe the reference to "white shoes" is an anti-Catholic dog-whistle. Every Catholic boy who's made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.

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    • Replies: @AM

    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.
     
    I appreciate the defense, but what I was trying to get at was that WASPs in general are actually pretty tolerant, given the whole of the modern world and history.

    My goal in chatting with you was not to expand the thinking to make Catholics honorary Jews somehow. Rather, it was to build up some resilience and charity by pointing out that the Jewish experience with whites and WASPs were neither unique nor destiny when things were tense and at their worst.

    The overwhelming impression I have of modern secular Jews is one of brittleness. Anti-fragile is what y'all are not. Part of that is the insistence that Jews historically have no agency and of nursing modern grudges based on that incorrect perception.

    , @Coemgen
    Yet, wearing white shoes is a rite-of-passage for Catholic boys. Maybe Pao or Szalai are ignorant of common Catholic traditions. Maybe a stone thrown at a "WASP" that hits a Catholic is not a problem for them.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews"

    In fifties Metro-Detroit white shoes, we called them "White Bucks" were a geographical phenomena : They were the "in" thing in Rosedale Park, Palmer Park ( A Hebrew enclave in Detroit), Bloomfield Hills ( Hebrew area) , Boston Edison, with it's marvelous mansions, Gross Pointe, Gross Isle, Dearborn before the middle easter conversion, and many a Catholic called these zones home.

    The other areas tended towards "Greaser" stylings : Duck-tail pompadours, Peg pants, pointed shoes, Mr B shirts. I was somewhere in between, as my best buddy, his dad a Ford board of directors member, resided in Rosedale

    My buddy was attending, end fifties, Michigan State, studying psychology, and I visited him in uniform, while on leave from the Army. He read me the riot act, about being on campus in Army khakis, which was, in tune with already marxist alignment of this institution, a huge tabu, as apparently some of his campus friends had complained about my "Reactionary" apparition.
    He ended up being a counselor with the Wayne County Prison system, and told me decades later that trying to get through to the thugs in the Detroit jails was a hopeless endeavor, that they were lost to mankind.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.

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  29. dearieme says:

    Are there any white trainer VC firms?

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    • Replies: @27 year old
    Tracksuit & Gold Chain, LLP
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  30. Jack D says:

    Pao had a thing for white shoe firms (if not white men – her 3 known mates were Chinese, Indian and black – there are some white men who have Asian fever but Pao with her wicked witch of the west manjaw and hard charging style is no Madame Butterfly). Before “white shoe” VC firm Kleiner (BTW I’m not sure that there really is such a thing as a white shoe VC firm) she was at the bona-fide white shoe law firm Cravath, Swaine & Moore. Of course by the time she got there, this was long past the white shoe era and Cravath was, like any modern American institution, filled with women, Jews, Asians, etc. The “no Jews” era at the white shoe firms of NY ended in the ’60s – 50+ years ago.

    Kleiner was founded in 1972 and Kleiner himself was a Viennese Jew who fled the Nazis as a teen, so I don’t know how you could call them “white shoe” which is from another time and place (time – 100+ years ago, place – NY and Boston) . By analogy I suppose because 1972 makes you old by SV standards.

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    After 30 years in finance in NYC, that's the first reference I've seen to a "white shoe" VC firm. White shoe seems to have taken on a meaning akin to "pedigree," as in the Name partners or heirs are still alive/active. Also, "white shoe" has morphed into an all-purpose "prestige," as in large, leading law firm or investment bank with a lengthy history--irrespective of creed.
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  31. Thirdtwin says:

    “There’s a particular kind of resentment that can fester when a self-described rule follower feels she did everything right only to be thwarted by unwritten rules that feel arbitrary and wrong…”

    “IOW, “What Happened”, West Coast Edition

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  32. TheJester says:

    Ellen Pao and Hillary Clinton are easy to figure out if you have spent time in corporate America. The story:

    I’ve spent the last 50 years taking note of the feminization of universities, the military, government, and corporations. I’ve learned that there is without question a difference in perspective between men and women regarding the way the world works.

    Men want results, results, results. Pure, simple, elegant, and you can very often publicly observe results via metrics in a fact-based world.

    Women, on the other hand, tend to focus on relationships. They spend their time within institutions focusing on relationships rather than results because it’s who you know rather than what you can accomplish.

    Taking relationship to the next level, this is the substance of the “mentoring” movement popular among feminists to find these relationships. As a fundamental of feminism, men get ahead with “mentors”, so every professional woman needs them on her way to the top. However, I’ve never known a man to use the term, much less seek a mentor. Yes, we understudy and emulate effective men we run across … but I’ve never seen a man seek the official HR-sanctioned mentor-mentoree relationship now common among women in corporations.

    So, who are the mentors? They are almost universally powerful men (directors, vice presidents, presidents, CEOs, colonels, generals, etc.) who agree to take women into their care … as their ersatz corporate husbands, so to speak. They accept the responsibility to “mentor” the women to assure them their pay raises and promotions.

    Now for the twist. If a woman with a powerful mentor does not get her pay raise or promotion, whose fault is it? She filled the squares; she had the relationships; she spent a lot of time in the right peoples’ offices … so what went wrong? Someone had to be out to get her. The “good ol’ boy” network obviously didn’t work for her the way it works for the guys, so there must be misogyny and sexism in there somewhere.

    Hence, anger, disappointment, and hard-sought vindication. “Hell hath no fury ….”

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    • Agree: ATX Hipster
    • Replies: @Thea
    The Boomer women were promised that work would be a personally fulfilling career. They passed this myth on down to the next two generations of women who believe it even more.

    They see the company as owing them something ( beyond a paycheck) that it never could have provided.
    , @Forbes
    Very effective description/diagnosis of advancement in the corporate world. Men will seek out leaders to follow, to emulate, to learn from. And multiple leaders across varying time frames, even more than one at a time, since advancement is usually about being at the right place at the right time--something near impossible to anticipate, so knowing many leaders is superior to relying on one mentor.

    Women, in this concept of mentoring, mean hitching your wagon to one mentor, which could mean narrowing the field for future prospects. It would be impossible to know in advance that the mentor chosen turned out to be a dead end regarding promotions.
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  33. Jack D says:

    a vengeful plot by the white-shoe boys of the securities business, all those nice Harvard graduates in loafers

    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless. He shouldn’t have been since both are derived from British shoe styles. Bucks, with their rubber soles, were the original tennis shoes and so associated with this upper class pursuit. White to fit as part of the all white tennis outfit.

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    Just as white bucks are summer casual footwear never worn to the office, the same would be true of loafers, that--while perfectly fine on Harvard's campus--were never worn to the office. Today, of course, such traditions of appropriate attire are dispensed with in the era of casual work attire.
    , @Twinkie

    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless.
     
    Good try, but not quite. Bucks are Derbies, not Oxfords.
    , @Expletive Deleted
    It would be (or rather, was .. sigh) most imprudent to be seen in anything other than black Oxfords while at the London office. Even Derby cut shoes were risky. Anything brown and it'd be catty remarks in the vein of " .. oh, orf to the country, are we?" White, and one would be suspected of being an escaped schoolboy who'd done a bunk during games.
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  34. Not Raul says:

    yet another coffee-table book for the pantsuit set

    What percentage of copies will actually get read from cover?

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  35. Jack D says:

    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees – engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary – academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can’t understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of ‘spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao’s wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.

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    • Replies: @bored identity
    Was this some kind of Sci-Fi, dystopian movie?

    bored identity is shocked to learn that this country's football fields used to be inhabited by behind the pale men (...and women ) wearing green hats and white shoes.


    And why's nobody Kneeling for Justice & Stuff?
    , @Anonymous

    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees – engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary – academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can’t understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of ‘spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao’s wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.
     
    Maybe Ellen Pao has a 150 IQ but I seriously doubt Hillary's is much above 115, if that.

    Btw, is it my imagination or do Asian-American women in high-level corporate positions tend to be bitchier, by and large, than white women at the same level? And by Asian I don't mean Indian women, who are congenitally bitchy and condescending (and self-confident even though they are always punching above their intellectual capacity).

    , @Buffalo Joe
    Jack, great summation of why these women can't achieve what they think is their birth right. My four daughters are successful and well liked but not world famous. And did I mention happy?
    , @Rod1963
    Spot on.

    Most of the really smart guys I've known in aerospace tended to stay in some tech specialty because they all lacked the basic people and managerial skills needed to move up the ladder.

    Pao from what I've read about her, is a emotionally and socially stunted human being. She'd make a good cube drone but that's it A lot I suspect comes from her rearing at the hands of a tiger mom which kept her from developing the social skills needed to function in the real world and be able to have a healthy relationship with a member of the opposite sex - IOW a boy friend.

    It's clear she can't. Hence her "marriage" to a black, gay, flim flam artist.
    , @pyrrhus
    Since Pao's actual accomplishments are much less than zero, which is why she got fired by the white shoe boys, I very much doubt that her IQ is anywhere near 150...I'll guess 120.
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  36. There is an old chestnut in Big Law about this stuff:

    A white-shoe firm (say, Cravath) has a senior associate (wearing black shoes) seen putting a pair of brown Oxfords in the cloakroom, when an elderly partner sees him and inquires with dismay, “Brown shoes in Town, Mr. Smith?” The reply is “I’m bringing them to be resoled, Mr. Johnson.” But the partner only walks way, muttering “Brown shoes in town! Hmmph! Brown shoes in town!”

    The anecdote always ends with an epilogue that the associate in question never makes partner despite his excellent performance and book of business.

    It works the other way, if course: I wear shorts and T-shirts to work most days now, I make heaps more money than I did when I had to wear suits each day (and waste some if it on dry cleaning). And I can attest if anyone comes to an interview for most technology-focused outfits in a suit, they are going to arch and eyebrow and, quite possibly, forfeit the job.

    When in Rome….

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    • Replies: @budnot
    Thank David Packard and Bill Hewlett for your sartorial freedom. They allowed their tech people to wear anything they wanted to work (which turned out to be shorts, sneakers and t-shirts) which sucked away talent from other bay area tech firms who still insisted on ties and plain shirts, and, despite this affront to commom decency, HP was making money hand over fist.

    One day, in about '78, I simply stopped wearing the rag around my neck that had been de riguer for the previous decade+ of my career, and nobody said anything. Within a year, the only guys in the engineering building wearing a tie were managers.
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  37. @slumber_j

    Perhaps commenter Slumber j could tell us whether his old Harvard classmate Buddy Fletcher, Ellen Pao’s gay black husband, wore white bucks.
     
    I don't remember, although it wouldn't have been at all out of character. There were lots and lots of bow ties, for example. And of course he was in Navy ROTC (at MIT, since Harvard didn't do that back then), so there was definitely some white-shoe wearing in connection with that. In the Navy!!

    https://youtu.be/nmGuy0jievs

    Buddy's failure to make good on his ROTC service obligation to the US Armed Forces might have served as a warning sign to, say, the pension managers of Louisiana and Massachusetts when they were doing whatever due diligence they may or may not have done on his hedge fund back in the day. Evidently it didn't: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," I guess.

    What you wear in the non-summer months if your a wearer of that sort of thing are dirty bucks, FYI: http://www.orvis.com/p/white-dirty-bucks/06l0

    By the way, my Harvard 30th Reunion spam has been especially rich, even by the increasingly grotesque standards of that institution. We're invited to apply or nominate others for, I guess, TED-like talks about ourselves and Harvard, for example. Fun.

    If I were going to attend this or any other reunion, I would propose myself for a talk: "Three World-Class Swindlers I Met at Harvard." In declining order of swindling power the three are:

    Viktor Kožený -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Kožený

    Florian Homm -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian_Homm

    Buddy Fletcher -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Fletcher

    Florian was actually a pretty good friend of mine and a thoroughly amusing guy. Viktor I knew a bit: he got thrown out of Florian's and my Final Club for stealing booze and--as it turned out--not having actually gone through the formality of matriculating at Harvard College. As I think I've said here before, I avoided Buddy at least as studiously as anything else I did there.

    Anyway, it's funny that I knew those guys at Harvard--not to mention Bank of England Governor Mark Carney.

    No (American) naval uniform includes white shoes; so far as I know, none ever has. Just as well, too, because now they would just have to be banned for being racist, anyway.

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    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Service Dress White does, I believe.

    The Service Dress White uniform has been different for the men's and women's variations. Men wear a high stand-collared white tunic, with shoulder boards for officers or the metal anchor collar devices for CPOs, white trousers, and white shoes.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy

    Let the racism-banning begin!

    , @JVO
    At the Naval Academy they wear them as part of the "summer whites" uniform.
    , @Twinkie
    Officers wear white shoes with dress uniforms. I thought you were in the Navy. Even if you weren't an officer, surely you ran into a few?
    , @whoever
    Re-familiarize yourself with NAVPERS 156651 Chapter 3 Section 5 Article 3501.54.
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  38. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Proskauer alum, here.

    I think the idea was that on Fridays, more casual attire was allowed in summer, because (a) no air conditioning (worked elsewhere at 1 Wall St. for a while, windows could wind open for ventilation) and (b) partners and tonier associates heading off to the Hamptons for boating/parties etc. Hence, blue blazers, white shoes, etc.

    Also, of course, both expensive to buy and expensive to maintain (or just keep throwing away, I guess).

    Proskauer was a “shirt sleeve” firm: you were expected to take off your suit coat and roll up your sleeves, to show work ethic.

    Mad Men references this when Don goes to work for McCann Erikson: “This is a shirt sleeve operation, Don.” Irish = Jewish in the coded language of Mad Men.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    When were you there? Casual Friday didn't get going in NY until the early '90s. Before that you wore the same suit on Friday as you did Mon-Thurs. The only time you didn't have to wear a suit was when you came in on the weekend. Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the '60s, then spread to California in the '80s and didn't hit NY until the '90s.

    McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms.

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  39. @International Jew

    The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring.
     
    Who are the others?

    Laurene Jobs (neé Powell) comes to mind.

    The sisters Wojcicki, Elizabeth Holmes, Zoe Quinn, Gabi Holzwarth, Sheryl Sandberg, and engineering genius Angela Ahrendts all deserve at least a mention.

    I could write a long list indeed off the top of my dome, as the hip-hoppers say. Do pay attention, old bean, after all, many of (((them))) share your values, n’pas?

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    You left off Marissa Mayer--certainly the queen of the Peter Principal amongst all those prima donnas.
    , @International Jew
    Thanx for jogging my memory. But if I understand Steve's use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.

    But we should add the chick that broke the Brin-Wojcicki home.

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  40. In other news today, ‘Rolling Stone’ Offering Readers 3-Month Free Trial Period For Buying Company.

    http://www.theonion.com/graphic/rolling-stone-offering-readers-6-month-free-trial–56965

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  41. Hosswire says:

    The parallels between Hillary & Pao are interesting. Both ambititious rule-following grinders. Both completely devoid of the charisma necessary to achieve their highest ambitions. Both sought to supplement their charisma gap through marriage to super-charming liars. Both fell short of their aims anyway. And of course both need an entire book to list everyone (but themselves) to blame.

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  42. Chief says:

    Having a bunch of Aspergerish high achieving men sitting around bitching about your social skills has got to hurt.

    Article: But of course there was still plenty to lose, and she describes the feeling of sitting in court, “listening to Kleiner partners trash me from the stand,” saying Pao was “not the warmest person,” “a bit too opinionated” — or, as one partner cruelly put it, a “cancer.”

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  43. EdwardM says:

    Ellen Pao: VC firms hire women to do ‘menial tasks’ and ‘clean up all the problems’

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/23/ellen-pao-vc-firms-hire-women-to-clean-up-all-the-problems.html

    Part of the preview of her book.

    Ellen Pao has seen sexism in Silicon Valley firsthand.

    Of course, this is an established fact, regardless of the outcome of her lawsuit.

    Pao writes that she found that “the women had twice as many years at Kleiner, but only the men got promoted.”

    Typical female thinking: success is measured by tenure, not by performance. I assume her book contains zero self-reflection on why she didn’t make it to Super Senior Partner or whatever.

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    • Replies: @dwb
    There are many flaws in her "logic" on view in that CNBC piece.

    First, the fallacy you point out that "she has seen sexism" first hand, and that this perception is reality. Now, I don't know that there is sexism at K-P. It's possible. A jury said that there wasn't. But either way, that she thinks she perceived sexism does not make it a fact.

    Second, the innocuous statement by John Doerr that


    There are certain things I am just more comfortable asking a woman to do.
     
    is prima facie evidence of sexism strikes me as bizarre. It really depends on what these "certain" things are. That I would (generally) feel more comfortable asking a man to be a bodyguard, or more comfortable asking a woman to be a lactation coach would reflect awareness of reality. Context matters, and without telling us what Doerr was asking, the quote is both provocative and meaningless at the same time.

    Third, the question asked during the depositions


    Why do venture capital firms hire female employees, only to prevent them from advancing professionally....Well, if they look down on women so much, if they block you from opportunities, they don't include you at their events, why do they even keep you around in the first place?

     

    is the wrong question. If we presume that she is correct - that a company can hire "over-educated" women, pay them less than a man with the same (or, if Pao is taken at face value, less) credentials, give them all of the "busy" work that the bosses don't want, and then not ever promote them, why on Earth would you not bring in such women?

    This strikes me as so obviously a straw-man, I am left to believe it was presented only to deliberately mislead.

    VC is not the army. They cannot force women to work there. If I thought - for ten seconds - that my company was giving me all the shitty work and paying me less than my actual value, and that I could go do something else that would give me what I deserved, I would be an idiot to stay.

    Why not ask Pao, "if you (and other women) feel that you are getting a raw deal, then why do you stay? Why don't you demand more money? Why not go start your own firm and take your clients with you?

    Then there is this "gem":


    female employees did more of the grunt work.

     

    in a piece where she states, openly, that she and other women are "over-educated."

    Now, again as I am not in VC, I am not sure what "grunt work" is at K-P. But she seems not to see a connection between her "over-education" and the firm's reliance on her to do "grunt work" (which I presume is un-strategic, boring technical work like number crunching). Is it at all possible that she focuses way too much on the technical details (i.e., she goes into a client meeting and starts tossing out jargon like "heteroscedasticity" in an effort to wow them with her brilliance, only to be met with blank, bored stares and people checking their iPhones) and has zero skills in the areas of client management and vision?

    I'm a maths guy, and I have seen this happen. Hell; I've been guilty more than once myself.

    Being a genius from Princeton will get you in the door; after that, no one gives a shit that you're brilliant (in your own mind).

    And finally, I find the suggestion that she is "underpaid" risible. How much money did Ellen Pao collect during her time at K-P? I suspect that it was many multiples of what the average American is paid, so the suggestion that it was unfair is bullshit.

    To be fair, I do well, but I suspect she earned more - likely, a lot more - than I did.

    OK, she's a lawyer and I am a lowly maths PhD. Well, what does the typical lawyer make in a year?

    Parsing further, what I suspect she is complaining about is that there are men at K-P who make more than she does, which is her definition of being "underpaid."

    Again, the subjective meaning of "underpaid" compares what you are paid versus what you think you should be. But that's not how it works. No one is "underpaid." Your employer decides your value by offering you what he thinks the work you do is worth. If you think your worth is more, you say "no thank you' and find a place that will give you what it is you think you are entitled to.

    That Ellen Pao is a terrible negotiator is not evidence of sexism.

    Ellen Pao is very good, obviously, at one thing, and that is self-promotion. She got into K-P, flamed out famously. Parlayed that failure into a CEO gig at Reddit, where she proceeded to fail. Again. Now, she's gotten herself into the national media writing a self-serving BS memoir.

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  44. Pat Boone in the ’50′s also helped to popularize white bucks among the proles. Generally speaking, white bucks = dork. Too white bread, vanilla, low T, and beta. Pure beta with no chance for advancement to Alpha manhood. Remember back in the day when some PGAers wore them? (or rather wore white bucked cleats)? Just dorky. Absolutely dork. I ask anyone here: Can you imagine Donald J. Trump wearing white bucks with his Brioni suits? That would be a YUGE mistake.

    White Bucks? Think Bert, from Sesame Street of “Ernie and Bert” fame. King of dorkiness and the antithesis of GQ. That and the polyester leisure suits with disco. Whites truly reached a nadir in taste and style, which helped drag down popular culture even further. [Looking in your direction, Baby Boomers.]

    Perhaps if this Asian adventuress weren’t Asian and looked more along the lines of say, Paris Hilton, this would have been a story with legs.

    Wonder what Paris Hilton is up to these days? And you can bet she wouldn’t be caught dead with someone wearing dorky white bucks either. If there was one woman who symbolized Gen Xer adventuress, it would have to be Paris Hilton. Paris was truly poised to become the epitome of the 21st century’s ideal of the post-modern adventuress. Suelte, sassy, street smarts, always with a bit of bored “Oh, please” attitude about her and above all else, an inner ability to market herself. Just petered out. Not exactly sure why.

    At least she had good taste in shoes.

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    • Replies: @anon
    White golf shoes are totally different, For a period of years, white Foot Joy wingtips were a default shoe choice. I don't know why they were so popular, but everyone wore them.

    One aspect of Waspish culture was a noticeable distinction between business and social attire. This has broken down with the rise of business casual. But there was a fairly lax rule that business and social were distinct and at, for example, a country club, a sports coat (usually with tie) and slacks were not frequently styled so they could not be worn at business. The blue blazer was the exception that proved the rule.

    Pat Boone was 'cultural appropriation' and were more of a fad than anything else. The Preppy Handbook was also a fad, although much bigger. Ralph Lauren is 100% appropriation of former upper class styles -- pretty much after it was gone.

    No one ever wore white bucks with a business suit.
    , @Anon
    Trump:

    http://coloradopols.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Trump-whiteshoes1.jpg
    , @Brutusale
    Back in the late 80s I was at a spring training night game between the Yankee$ and the White Sox at the old Al Smith Stadium in Sarasota. I met George Steinbrenner, nobody's idea of anything but alpha, wearing his spring casual attire: blue blazer, green slacks, yellow polo and white shoes.

    He was also as nice a guy as you'd ever meet.
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  45. AM says:
    @Jack D
    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.

    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.

    I appreciate the defense, but what I was trying to get at was that WASPs in general are actually pretty tolerant, given the whole of the modern world and history.

    My goal in chatting with you was not to expand the thinking to make Catholics honorary Jews somehow. Rather, it was to build up some resilience and charity by pointing out that the Jewish experience with whites and WASPs were neither unique nor destiny when things were tense and at their worst.

    The overwhelming impression I have of modern secular Jews is one of brittleness. Anti-fragile is what y’all are not. Part of that is the insistence that Jews historically have no agency and of nursing modern grudges based on that incorrect perception.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I think you have to divide Jewish attitudes toward discrimination into pre and post Holocaust. Before the war, Jews in America accepted that white Protestant power elite was racist and exclusionary - we lived in a racist and exclusionary society. That was just a fact of life and you dealt with it as best you could - formed your own law firms, country clubs, etc. Jews even began to take steps to forming their own universities, med schools, etc. It's not something that you enjoyed but you lived with it, as did Catholics, Italians, blacks, etc. You really had no choice.

    After WWII, it became clear to Jews that (even though this stuff happened over in Europe and not here) that racial discrimination was literally a matter of life and death. Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. "You can't stay at this resort no longer meant "you can't stay at this resort" but "when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family". I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.

    Now my personal opinion is that American style mild racism had very little to do with the violent and genocidal European type of anti-Semitism (Americans are very pragmatic, Europeans have a tendency to get wrapped up in ideological purity and take things to their "logical" conclusion - see the American Revolution vs. the French Revolution) but I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.
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  46. @International Jew

    The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring.
     
    Who are the others?

    Although I cannot name them, I’ve followed the stories of these other female buccaneers over the years and I’ve seen their pictures. Usually they are blonde and willowy, ultra-schicksas. Put Pao and them at opposite ends of any upscale bar and it’s easy to predict which end would empty out and which fill up. I think it unusually chivalrous of Mr. Sailer that his quote did not read, “The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring and also the ugliest.”

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    • Replies: @black sea
    The latest, and perhaps greatest, SV adventuress is Amanda Rosenberg.

    Blonde, no; willow, maybe; ultra-shicksa, definitely not.
    , @Anon
    I dispute that. Lena Dunham is the ugliest.

    I think Pao's problem is partially that she married a black guy. If you're an Asian woman at a tech firm, you're supposed to go straight for a rich, nerdy, but aggressive white guy. When the Asian chick goes for a black, that's a sign she's socially inept, and and her ineptitude is innate and not fixable. Spending your life saddled with a black mate when you could have easily avoided it is mind-bogglingly stupid. Even successful black men screw up and end up losing most of their money in the long run, or in trouble with the law. Successful black men are rare, but successful black men who stay that way and out of trouble are insanely rare.
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  47. anonguy says:

    White and dirty bucks were quite popular with the preppy college students in the early 80s, at least in the south.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    anonguy, Born in '46, so HS was 60' to 64'. White bucks were very popular with the preppy (me included) crowd. Pat Boone , remember him, wore them. Three other shoe styles that we wore, penny loafers, dessert boots ( ankle high sand colored bucks) and British Walkers. Sneakers were always Keds.
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  48. @Trash
    The wikipedia is partly correct. Back in the day (40's and 50's) law firms and investment banks in NYC were divided up by religion. Just like country clubs. There were WASPy firms (Cadwallader Wickersham & Taft), Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own. Same with investment banks: Morgan Stanley vs Goldman Sachs vs Cantor Fitzgerald (Cantor Fitz is a bank now, I think back then they were just bond traders).

    Mostly that's gone, but there may be traces. I bet you have a slight edge applying at Goldman today if you have a recognizably Jewish name, but again, slight. Even in the 80s they weren't overt about it, but there were cultural things. When I worked at Donovan a lot of guys had been in the Marines, and they all had their medals and ribbons framed on the wall. I doubt that was a thing at Proskauer. Or Donovan had the "tea ladies," who were OSS or military widows who would come around with a cart and bring you tea and cookies in the afternoon. That was Wild Bill's boondoggle to take care of his guys' widows while reminding everybody what was really important. Some people loved that culture, others not so much. There were Jewish guys at Donovan, but they were guys who were comfortable being around the other culture.

    And while there were culturally distinct firms, there were also ones that were mixes. Anderson Kill never had an identity like that.

    We need to hear more from you.

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  49. George says:

    She’s not boring, she is just what the sports writers call a points fighter.

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  50. Crank says:

    I always assumed that white shoe firms were just big fans of Billy “White Shoes” Johnson.

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  51. jayze says:

    I listened to her NPR interview. She described herself as initially introverted, and still introverted after all the legal attention. Her introverted nature is likely the root of her not achieving the partnership she felt she deserved.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Ellen Pao's self descriptions are as reliable at Hillary's. She is a shameless ho who tried to sleep her way to the top at Kleiner and in no way introverted - that's just disinformation to throw the opposition off base.
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  52. res says:
    @Erik L
    My Jewish dad wore white bucks in his youth. they were his favorite shoes and he gave me the impression that among teens of his generation they were the analog of sneakers or maybe docksiders to mine. I'm pretty sure they were worn year round but definitely casual.

    WRT Pao's whole idea that following the rules entitles you to the rewards...no. Necessary to a point but not sufficient

    WRT Pao’s whole idea that following the rules entitles you to the rewards…no. Necessary to a point but not sufficient

    This is a key point. The idea these days seems to be affirmative action to get in the door followed by what you describe. Accompanied by various levels of riding the affirmative action rocket ship towards the top (regardless of performance) along the way.

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  53. Coemgen says:
    @Jack D
    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.

    Yet, wearing white shoes is a rite-of-passage for Catholic boys. Maybe Pao or Szalai are ignorant of common Catholic traditions. Maybe a stone thrown at a “WASP” that hits a Catholic is not a problem for them.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    "White shoe" is just a metaphor like "blue chip" (from the highest value poker chip) - it has nothing to do with any type of white shoes other than the white bucks that Yale boys wore. Not the white shoes worn in the Navy, not those worn by Catholic boys, not nurses shoes - none of the above. There are many different kinds of white shoes but this reference is to one particular kind. If Catholics took communion with blue corn tortilla chips this would not make them "blue chip".
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  54. @Trash
    The wikipedia is partly correct. Back in the day (40's and 50's) law firms and investment banks in NYC were divided up by religion. Just like country clubs. There were WASPy firms (Cadwallader Wickersham & Taft), Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own. Same with investment banks: Morgan Stanley vs Goldman Sachs vs Cantor Fitzgerald (Cantor Fitz is a bank now, I think back then they were just bond traders).

    Mostly that's gone, but there may be traces. I bet you have a slight edge applying at Goldman today if you have a recognizably Jewish name, but again, slight. Even in the 80s they weren't overt about it, but there were cultural things. When I worked at Donovan a lot of guys had been in the Marines, and they all had their medals and ribbons framed on the wall. I doubt that was a thing at Proskauer. Or Donovan had the "tea ladies," who were OSS or military widows who would come around with a cart and bring you tea and cookies in the afternoon. That was Wild Bill's boondoggle to take care of his guys' widows while reminding everybody what was really important. Some people loved that culture, others not so much. There were Jewish guys at Donovan, but they were guys who were comfortable being around the other culture.

    And while there were culturally distinct firms, there were also ones that were mixes. Anderson Kill never had an identity like that.

    Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own.

    No one ever criticizes Jewish firms for being Jewish, for preferring Jews, or for excluding Gentiles.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    And yet, if you have worked in various prominent firms in NYC, Miami, LA, etc, you've witnessed the phenomenon countless times. We just don't talk about it.

    It doesn't even have to be a "Jewish" firm. Just needs a critical mass of them in prominent positions, and the road will become impossibly steep for everyone else.

    Mind you, they're not stupid. There are always one or two tokens (or high performers) from the outgroups, just for cover.

    , @Jack D
    No one ever criticized segregated schools in the South for being all black or not admitting whites.

    This is a stupid take on things, like saying "the law forbids both the rich and the poor from sleeping under the bridges of Paris". All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn't get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.
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  55. biz says:
    @International Jew

    The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring.
     
    Who are the others?

    Assuming Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos, and the Wojicki sisters.

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  56. anon says: • Disclaimer

    I’ve never heard white shoe used in a way that wasn’t negative.

    However, ‘bulge bracket’ refers to investment banks.

    http://www.streetofwalls.com/articles/investment-banking/learn-the-basics/bulge-bracket-investment-banks/

    They had ‘league tables’ and tombstones.

    There is a nice snapshot of the 80′s residue of them in Bondfire of the Vanities. Where the observant learned that the real money was always in bonds. And a tiny slice of a huge number can be an obscene amount of money. I suppose they existed but the action was Salomon Brothers with the emergence of innovative securitization and Drexel with their junk bonds.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    This is not true. "White shoe" sometimes has the same connotation as "top shelf". Sometimes it means "old line" (anti-Semitic, stuffy) but there are even , as the Wiki describes, newer firms that are described as the "new" white shoe firms - if "white shoe" was completely negative no one would want to have that name hung on them. The wiki says. "Today, the term is sometimes used in a general sense to refer to firms that are perceived as prestigious or high-quality." Think of the image of say Rolls Royce autos - a sort of two edged sword.
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  57. res says:

    Her book is currently the #1 bestseller in Feminist Theory on Amazon with only three reviews (all 5 star) shown.

    https://www.amazon.com/Reset-Fight-Inclusion-Lasting-Change-ebook/dp/B06XJZ2BM3

    I wonder if Amazon will shield her book in the reviews like it did Hillary’s. I suspect this one will be much easier since I doubt anyone will buy it unless they are sympathetic to Pao already. One of Amazon’s go to moves seems to be removing non-verified purchase reviews (though for Hillary’s book verified purchase reviews have been removed as well).

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  58. @Jack D
    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees - engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary - academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can't understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of 'spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao's wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.

    Was this some kind of Sci-Fi, dystopian movie?

    bored identity is shocked to learn that this country’s football fields used to be inhabited by behind the pale men (…and women ) wearing green hats and white shoes.

    And why’s nobody Kneeling for Justice & Stuff?

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  59. Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Wiggers always come across as sickening freaks, especially the female kind. This is because when a woman has a low social IQ and emulates the lower class instead of the upper class like she's supposed to, her Eliza Doolittle act is ghastly to behold. Case in point: (Warning for those with weak stomachs).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ioilEr3Apw

    , @peterike

    OT: Transracialism alert:

     

    Just looking at the pictures of this monstrosity, esp before and after, and I thought, "She must be German. Only the Germans are THIS destroyed by multi-culti propaganda." And sure enough, I was right.
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  60. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @anonymouslee
    Have you ever woken up in the morning and thought to yourself, "gee, I wonder if the tech business world is including Ellen K. Pao enough" well then do I have the book for you!

    I’m always amazed that you can find some retarded editor willing to give large sums of money to some callow adventuress ala Ellen Pao or Hillary Clinton (adventuress is all Clinton has ever been) for books that the editor knows darn well won’t sell. Of course, my cynical side suspects that a deal was stuck for the ‘celebrity’ to buy enough copies to pay off the book’s production costs, and to force the book up the charts enough to keep the editor for being fired for financial stupidity

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    • Replies: @peterike

    I’m always amazed that you can find some retarded editor willing to give large sums of money to some callow adventuress ala Ellen Pao or Hillary Clinton (adventuress is all Clinton has ever been) for books that the editor knows darn well won’t sell.

     

    Don't you understand that these editors are true believers? This is publishing with a social conscience, you see. Of course, they won't make money on it, but some things are more important.
    , @Raymund Eich
    As I understand how New York publishing works these days, the editors have little to no influence on purchasing decisions. In the case of HRC's book, corporate management signed off on the contract in order to buy favor with the Dem power structure. Could come in handy in NY publishing's fight against Amazon, especially if a Dem beats Trump in '20.

    And the bestseller charts, especially The NY Times, are a rigged and gameable system.

    Not sure about Pao's memoir, but probably similar reasoning: corporate management thought it was banking a favor. IDK what favor though.
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  61. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Percy Gryce
    OT: Transracialism alert:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4906206/White-flight-attendant-says-identifies-black.html

    Wiggers always come across as sickening freaks, especially the female kind. This is because when a woman has a low social IQ and emulates the lower class instead of the upper class like she’s supposed to, her Eliza Doolittle act is ghastly to behold. Case in point: (Warning for those with weak stomachs).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Eric Ruttencutter
    These Heaux? Ho's? Brilliant
    , @Anonymous
    Danielle Bregoli Peskowitz? "Cash me ousside" girl? She parlayed her one appearance on Dr. Phil into a multi-million-dollar deal with Atlantic Records. She's 14 years old. While her father, Ira Peskowitz of NYC, seems like a dumb Jew he passed on the Jewish genes for sure.

    http://www.empireboobookitty.com/2017/02/ira-peskowitz-danielle-bregoli-father.html
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  62. Art Deco says:

    Kojak: “He’s either a nurse or he’s trying to do a bad imitation of Pat Boone’.

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  63. HI says:

    A “rule follower” is surprised that VC doesn’t reward “rule following.” LMAO. She should have gone into dentistry or the law. Or some other field that doesn’t include “venture” in its name.

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  64. Thea says:
    @TheJester
    Ellen Pao and Hillary Clinton are easy to figure out if you have spent time in corporate America. The story:

    I've spent the last 50 years taking note of the feminization of universities, the military, government, and corporations. I've learned that there is without question a difference in perspective between men and women regarding the way the world works.

    Men want results, results, results. Pure, simple, elegant, and you can very often publicly observe results via metrics in a fact-based world.

    Women, on the other hand, tend to focus on relationships. They spend their time within institutions focusing on relationships rather than results because it's who you know rather than what you can accomplish.

    Taking relationship to the next level, this is the substance of the "mentoring" movement popular among feminists to find these relationships. As a fundamental of feminism, men get ahead with "mentors", so every professional woman needs them on her way to the top. However, I've never known a man to use the term, much less seek a mentor. Yes, we understudy and emulate effective men we run across ... but I've never seen a man seek the official HR-sanctioned mentor-mentoree relationship now common among women in corporations.

    So, who are the mentors? They are almost universally powerful men (directors, vice presidents, presidents, CEOs, colonels, generals, etc.) who agree to take women into their care ... as their ersatz corporate husbands, so to speak. They accept the responsibility to "mentor" the women to assure them their pay raises and promotions.

    Now for the twist. If a woman with a powerful mentor does not get her pay raise or promotion, whose fault is it? She filled the squares; she had the relationships; she spent a lot of time in the right peoples' offices ... so what went wrong? Someone had to be out to get her. The "good ol' boy" network obviously didn't work for her the way it works for the guys, so there must be misogyny and sexism in there somewhere.

    Hence, anger, disappointment, and hard-sought vindication. "Hell hath no fury ...."

    The Boomer women were promised that work would be a personally fulfilling career. They passed this myth on down to the next two generations of women who believe it even more.

    They see the company as owing them something ( beyond a paycheck) that it never could have provided.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    The Boomer women were promised that work would be a personally fulfilling career.
     
    Right. And then they found out that these "personally fulfilling careers" were just ordinary boring jobs, like us guys have had forever. But it had to be someone elses fault.
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  65. peterike says:
    @Percy Gryce
    OT: Transracialism alert:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4906206/White-flight-attendant-says-identifies-black.html

    OT: Transracialism alert:

    Just looking at the pictures of this monstrosity, esp before and after, and I thought, “She must be German. Only the Germans are THIS destroyed by multi-culti propaganda.” And sure enough, I was right.

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  66. peterike says:
    @Anon
    I'm always amazed that you can find some retarded editor willing to give large sums of money to some callow adventuress ala Ellen Pao or Hillary Clinton (adventuress is all Clinton has ever been) for books that the editor knows darn well won't sell. Of course, my cynical side suspects that a deal was stuck for the 'celebrity' to buy enough copies to pay off the book's production costs, and to force the book up the charts enough to keep the editor for being fired for financial stupidity

    I’m always amazed that you can find some retarded editor willing to give large sums of money to some callow adventuress ala Ellen Pao or Hillary Clinton (adventuress is all Clinton has ever been) for books that the editor knows darn well won’t sell.

    Don’t you understand that these editors are true believers? This is publishing with a social conscience, you see. Of course, they won’t make money on it, but some things are more important.

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  67. Is there any difference between a “white shoe firm” and a “Wall Street firm”?

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  68. @Eric Ruttencutter
    I am a lawyer. No lawyers wear white shoes. Anywhere. Ever.

    Since my initial post, I did remember an attorney who wore white shoes. He was a personal injury/workers compensation lawyer with an ad on the back cover of the Yellow Pages about 25 years ago. He wore polyester suits and a toupee. He also had some ethical issues with the Bar as I recall. I don’t think this is the image the writer here is seeking to invoke.

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  69. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees - engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary - academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can't understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of 'spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao's wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.

    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees – engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary – academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can’t understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of ‘spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao’s wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.

    Maybe Ellen Pao has a 150 IQ but I seriously doubt Hillary’s is much above 115, if that.

    Btw, is it my imagination or do Asian-American women in high-level corporate positions tend to be bitchier, by and large, than white women at the same level? And by Asian I don’t mean Indian women, who are congenitally bitchy and condescending (and self-confident even though they are always punching above their intellectual capacity).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Coemgen
    Agreed regarding Hillary Clinton not being that bright.

    Yet, her inability to recall at certain times notwithstanding, she has an impressive ability to remember her lies.

    She is quite proud to note that she "has been consistent" in her responses to certain questions.

    Most people can't recall the truth as consistently as she can recall her lies.

    She is consistent but not truthful.

    Apparently, consistency and megalomania can take one quite far in life in spite of one having only a mediocre wit.
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  70. @Anon
    Wiggers always come across as sickening freaks, especially the female kind. This is because when a woman has a low social IQ and emulates the lower class instead of the upper class like she's supposed to, her Eliza Doolittle act is ghastly to behold. Case in point: (Warning for those with weak stomachs).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ioilEr3Apw

    These Heaux? Ho’s? Brilliant

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  71. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    Wiggers always come across as sickening freaks, especially the female kind. This is because when a woman has a low social IQ and emulates the lower class instead of the upper class like she's supposed to, her Eliza Doolittle act is ghastly to behold. Case in point: (Warning for those with weak stomachs).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ioilEr3Apw

    Danielle Bregoli Peskowitz? “Cash me ousside” girl? She parlayed her one appearance on Dr. Phil into a multi-million-dollar deal with Atlantic Records. She’s 14 years old. While her father, Ira Peskowitz of NYC, seems like a dumb Jew he passed on the Jewish genes for sure.

    http://www.empireboobookitty.com/2017/02/ira-peskowitz-danielle-bregoli-father.html

    Read More
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  72. black sea says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    Although I cannot name them, I've followed the stories of these other female buccaneers over the years and I've seen their pictures. Usually they are blonde and willowy, ultra-schicksas. Put Pao and them at opposite ends of any upscale bar and it's easy to predict which end would empty out and which fill up. I think it unusually chivalrous of Mr. Sailer that his quote did not read, "The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring and also the ugliest."

    The latest, and perhaps greatest, SV adventuress is Amanda Rosenberg.

    Blonde, no; willow, maybe; ultra-shicksa, definitely not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    I found this quote in the Mail article about her, which was too good not to post;


    She also describes herself as ‘part of the master race that is the Chinese Jew or Chew if you will.
     
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    Thanks. I was totally unaware of this woman. Looking at DPH's reply, she at least has the saving grace of a sense of humor. It inspired me to realize that if she were a tranny male one might call her a CHAP (Chinese/Jewish-American Princess).
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  73. Ivy Leaguers would wear white bucks “all the time”, as the song goes, preferably dirty and beat-up, not pristine like Pat Boone’s. In 1990 the “nice Harvard graduates” on Wall Street were wearing Gucci horsebit loafers to work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @renault
    Horsebit loafers are definitely still a thing on Wall Street (or in Midtown, as it were).
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  74. DFH says:
    @black sea
    The latest, and perhaps greatest, SV adventuress is Amanda Rosenberg.

    Blonde, no; willow, maybe; ultra-shicksa, definitely not.

    I found this quote in the Mail article about her, which was too good not to post;

    She also describes herself as ‘part of the master race that is the Chinese Jew or Chew if you will.

    Read More
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  75. syonredux says:

    Off-topic,

    Jordan Peele’s new project:

    Jordan Peele is developing a Nazi-hunting series, which sounds about right
    The “Get Out” director is signed on for new series set in the ’70s, “The Hunt”

    Jordan Peele, the director of this year’s politically potent blockbuster “Get Out,” might really be the hardest working man in Hollywood. Why, only today the Hollywood Reporter tells us that he’s signed on to executive produce a potential drama series about 1970s Nazi-hunters called, yes, “The Hunt.”
    The Reporter describes the drama as such: “Inspired by true events, The Hunt follows a diverse band of Nazi hunters in 1970s America as they set out on a quest for revenge and justice — tracking and killing hundreds of Nazis who, with the unconscionable help of the U.S. government, escaped justice and embedded themselves in American society.

    David Weil will be both screenwriter and co-executive producer with Peele. The Hollywood reporter says that although a network has not yet picked up the series, several bidders have allegedly expressed interest. The Reporter added, “Sources say the package started going around town following the Charlottesville, Va., neo-Nazi protest and counter protest.”

    http://www.salon.com/2017/09/21/jordan-peele-the-hunt-nazi-hunting-series/

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    A rare black contendor for the 'World's Goodest Goy Competition'.
    His wife is Jewish, in case anyone is interested.

    Do liberal Jews get pissed off at their women miscegenating?
    , @Anonymous
    Indeed. We counter your one-night candlelight march with our multi-media fantasy extravaganza which will reach hundreds of millions. Guess who wins?
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  76. Thirdeye says:

    The “rule” she followed was sleep with the boss to get the promotion and when that didn’t work she was embittered. Dang, having to make it on merit just like a guy is so harsh!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    And she slept with a married partner, as if that would reflect "good judgment" in the eyes of the other partners, rather than the dangerous and unwarranted risk-taker that it does indicate.
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  77. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Pat Boone in the '50's also helped to popularize white bucks among the proles. Generally speaking, white bucks = dork. Too white bread, vanilla, low T, and beta. Pure beta with no chance for advancement to Alpha manhood. Remember back in the day when some PGAers wore them? (or rather wore white bucked cleats)? Just dorky. Absolutely dork. I ask anyone here: Can you imagine Donald J. Trump wearing white bucks with his Brioni suits? That would be a YUGE mistake.

    White Bucks? Think Bert, from Sesame Street of "Ernie and Bert" fame. King of dorkiness and the antithesis of GQ. That and the polyester leisure suits with disco. Whites truly reached a nadir in taste and style, which helped drag down popular culture even further. [Looking in your direction, Baby Boomers.]

    Perhaps if this Asian adventuress weren't Asian and looked more along the lines of say, Paris Hilton, this would have been a story with legs.

    Wonder what Paris Hilton is up to these days? And you can bet she wouldn't be caught dead with someone wearing dorky white bucks either. If there was one woman who symbolized Gen Xer adventuress, it would have to be Paris Hilton. Paris was truly poised to become the epitome of the 21st century's ideal of the post-modern adventuress. Suelte, sassy, street smarts, always with a bit of bored "Oh, please" attitude about her and above all else, an inner ability to market herself. Just petered out. Not exactly sure why.

    At least she had good taste in shoes.

    White golf shoes are totally different, For a period of years, white Foot Joy wingtips were a default shoe choice. I don’t know why they were so popular, but everyone wore them.

    One aspect of Waspish culture was a noticeable distinction between business and social attire. This has broken down with the rise of business casual. But there was a fairly lax rule that business and social were distinct and at, for example, a country club, a sports coat (usually with tie) and slacks were not frequently styled so they could not be worn at business. The blue blazer was the exception that proved the rule.

    Pat Boone was ‘cultural appropriation’ and were more of a fad than anything else. The Preppy Handbook was also a fad, although much bigger. Ralph Lauren is 100% appropriation of former upper class styles — pretty much after it was gone.

    No one ever wore white bucks with a business suit.

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    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer

    Ralph Lauren is 100% appropriation of former upper class styles — pretty much after it was gone.
     
    Yeah, I'm amazed this is a thing. People want to play dress-ups like this?
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  78. hhsiii says:
    @Trash
    The wikipedia is partly correct. Back in the day (40's and 50's) law firms and investment banks in NYC were divided up by religion. Just like country clubs. There were WASPy firms (Cadwallader Wickersham & Taft), Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own. Same with investment banks: Morgan Stanley vs Goldman Sachs vs Cantor Fitzgerald (Cantor Fitz is a bank now, I think back then they were just bond traders).

    Mostly that's gone, but there may be traces. I bet you have a slight edge applying at Goldman today if you have a recognizably Jewish name, but again, slight. Even in the 80s they weren't overt about it, but there were cultural things. When I worked at Donovan a lot of guys had been in the Marines, and they all had their medals and ribbons framed on the wall. I doubt that was a thing at Proskauer. Or Donovan had the "tea ladies," who were OSS or military widows who would come around with a cart and bring you tea and cookies in the afternoon. That was Wild Bill's boondoggle to take care of his guys' widows while reminding everybody what was really important. Some people loved that culture, others not so much. There were Jewish guys at Donovan, but they were guys who were comfortable being around the other culture.

    And while there were culturally distinct firms, there were also ones that were mixes. Anderson Kill never had an identity like that.

    Yeah, when I was in law school in the late 80s there was a book about the various New York Firms, what they paid, what they specialized in, which ones were culturally jewish, catholic (I think Cahill had irish guys), etc. The guy who wrote it was jewish, and he pointed out that the jewish firms had wasps, wasp firms had jews. But he said if you went back far enough back in the day old wasp firms might have jews but they would have been back in the stacks, i.e., not partners usually.

    He made a funny line about Parker Chapin or Phillips Nizer being more a polyester suit firm.

    My dad was in-house at Walter Kidde, Inc., the conglomerate that took its cash-cow fire extinguisher business and bought a bunch of companies like universal weightlifting, jacuzzi, etc, trying to buy growth. They used Donovan Leisure and to your point, yes, Sandy Litvak was there at the time. he became general counsel at Disney. What my dad liked about Donovan Leisure was they never became one of the mega-sized international firms like Skadden. Mid-sized and you’d know the folks you were dealing with.

    Pao worked at Cravath. Epitome of white shoe.

    I never thought that it meant white bucks. I went to a Debevoise and Plimpton party once. I was telling the jewish clerk for a judge (I was a summer intern) and said Debevoyz, and he said don’t you know it’s pronounced Debevwah (like french). I said you’re wrong and he laughed at me. I’m sure someone ultimately set him straight. What a tool.

    Anyway, at that party there were a couple of nattily dressed partners who absolutely wore white, patent leather shoes with their suit. So I always assumed it meant what it said. White bucks? Most of the ivy league wasps I knew wore topsiders out of the office.

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  79. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Pat Boone in the '50's also helped to popularize white bucks among the proles. Generally speaking, white bucks = dork. Too white bread, vanilla, low T, and beta. Pure beta with no chance for advancement to Alpha manhood. Remember back in the day when some PGAers wore them? (or rather wore white bucked cleats)? Just dorky. Absolutely dork. I ask anyone here: Can you imagine Donald J. Trump wearing white bucks with his Brioni suits? That would be a YUGE mistake.

    White Bucks? Think Bert, from Sesame Street of "Ernie and Bert" fame. King of dorkiness and the antithesis of GQ. That and the polyester leisure suits with disco. Whites truly reached a nadir in taste and style, which helped drag down popular culture even further. [Looking in your direction, Baby Boomers.]

    Perhaps if this Asian adventuress weren't Asian and looked more along the lines of say, Paris Hilton, this would have been a story with legs.

    Wonder what Paris Hilton is up to these days? And you can bet she wouldn't be caught dead with someone wearing dorky white bucks either. If there was one woman who symbolized Gen Xer adventuress, it would have to be Paris Hilton. Paris was truly poised to become the epitome of the 21st century's ideal of the post-modern adventuress. Suelte, sassy, street smarts, always with a bit of bored "Oh, please" attitude about her and above all else, an inner ability to market herself. Just petered out. Not exactly sure why.

    At least she had good taste in shoes.

    Trump:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Not Raul
    Good point; but it might not have been a WASP who picked them out for him.

    Trump seems to surround himself with trashy people. He seems to have forgotten that money doesn't always equal class.
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  80. Forbes says:
    @Jack D
    Pao had a thing for white shoe firms (if not white men - her 3 known mates were Chinese, Indian and black - there are some white men who have Asian fever but Pao with her wicked witch of the west manjaw and hard charging style is no Madame Butterfly). Before "white shoe" VC firm Kleiner (BTW I'm not sure that there really is such a thing as a white shoe VC firm) she was at the bona-fide white shoe law firm Cravath, Swaine & Moore. Of course by the time she got there, this was long past the white shoe era and Cravath was, like any modern American institution, filled with women, Jews, Asians, etc. The "no Jews" era at the white shoe firms of NY ended in the '60s - 50+ years ago.

    Kleiner was founded in 1972 and Kleiner himself was a Viennese Jew who fled the Nazis as a teen, so I don't know how you could call them "white shoe" which is from another time and place (time - 100+ years ago, place - NY and Boston) . By analogy I suppose because 1972 makes you old by SV standards.

    After 30 years in finance in NYC, that’s the first reference I’ve seen to a “white shoe” VC firm. White shoe seems to have taken on a meaning akin to “pedigree,” as in the Name partners or heirs are still alive/active. Also, “white shoe” has morphed into an all-purpose “prestige,” as in large, leading law firm or investment bank with a lengthy history–irrespective of creed.

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  81. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Opinionator
    Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own.

    No one ever criticizes Jewish firms for being Jewish, for preferring Jews, or for excluding Gentiles.

    And yet, if you have worked in various prominent firms in NYC, Miami, LA, etc, you’ve witnessed the phenomenon countless times. We just don’t talk about it.

    It doesn’t even have to be a “Jewish” firm. Just needs a critical mass of them in prominent positions, and the road will become impossibly steep for everyone else.

    Mind you, they’re not stupid. There are always one or two tokens (or high performers) from the outgroups, just for cover.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Not Raul
    >> It doesn’t even have to be a “Jewish” firm. Just needs a critical mass of them in prominent positions, and the road will become impossibly steep for everyone else.

    Mind you, they’re not stupid. There are always one or two tokens (or high performers) from the outgroups, just for cover. <<

    I've heard that it's the same way in Ivy League admissions.
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  82. Kylie says:
    @Look Sharp
    I think they just want to use the term "white" in a negative manner. It's not brain surgery.

    Exactly.

    I doubt the equally elitist phrase “black tie” will be used by the progs
    as disdainfully as “white shoe”.

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  83. DFH says:
    @syonredux
    Off-topic,


    Jordan Peele's new project:

    Jordan Peele is developing a Nazi-hunting series, which sounds about right
    The “Get Out” director is signed on for new series set in the ’70s, “The Hunt”
     

    Jordan Peele, the director of this year's politically potent blockbuster "Get Out," might really be the hardest working man in Hollywood. Why, only today the Hollywood Reporter tells us that he's signed on to executive produce a potential drama series about 1970s Nazi-hunters called, yes, "The Hunt."
    The Reporter describes the drama as such: "Inspired by true events, The Hunt follows a diverse band of Nazi hunters in 1970s America as they set out on a quest for revenge and justice — tracking and killing hundreds of Nazis who, with the unconscionable help of the U.S. government, escaped justice and embedded themselves in American society."
     

    David Weil will be both screenwriter and co-executive producer with Peele. The Hollywood reporter says that although a network has not yet picked up the series, several bidders have allegedly expressed interest. The Reporter added, "Sources say the package started going around town following the Charlottesville, Va., neo-Nazi protest and counter protest."
     
    http://www.salon.com/2017/09/21/jordan-peele-the-hunt-nazi-hunting-series/

    A rare black contendor for the ‘World’s Goodest Goy Competition’.
    His wife is Jewish, in case anyone is interested.

    Do liberal Jews get pissed off at their women miscegenating?

    Read More
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  84. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    Although I cannot name them, I've followed the stories of these other female buccaneers over the years and I've seen their pictures. Usually they are blonde and willowy, ultra-schicksas. Put Pao and them at opposite ends of any upscale bar and it's easy to predict which end would empty out and which fill up. I think it unusually chivalrous of Mr. Sailer that his quote did not read, "The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring and also the ugliest."

    I dispute that. Lena Dunham is the ugliest.

    I think Pao’s problem is partially that she married a black guy. If you’re an Asian woman at a tech firm, you’re supposed to go straight for a rich, nerdy, but aggressive white guy. When the Asian chick goes for a black, that’s a sign she’s socially inept, and and her ineptitude is innate and not fixable. Spending your life saddled with a black mate when you could have easily avoided it is mind-bogglingly stupid. Even successful black men screw up and end up losing most of their money in the long run, or in trouble with the law. Successful black men are rare, but successful black men who stay that way and out of trouble are insanely rare.

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  85. Forbes says:
    @Jack D

    a vengeful plot by the white-shoe boys of the securities business, all those nice Harvard graduates in loafers
     
    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless. He shouldn't have been since both are derived from British shoe styles. Bucks, with their rubber soles, were the original tennis shoes and so associated with this upper class pursuit. White to fit as part of the all white tennis outfit.

    Just as white bucks are summer casual footwear never worn to the office, the same would be true of loafers, that–while perfectly fine on Harvard’s campus–were never worn to the office. Today, of course, such traditions of appropriate attire are dispensed with in the era of casual work attire.

    Read More
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  86. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @syonredux
    Off-topic,


    Jordan Peele's new project:

    Jordan Peele is developing a Nazi-hunting series, which sounds about right
    The “Get Out” director is signed on for new series set in the ’70s, “The Hunt”
     

    Jordan Peele, the director of this year's politically potent blockbuster "Get Out," might really be the hardest working man in Hollywood. Why, only today the Hollywood Reporter tells us that he's signed on to executive produce a potential drama series about 1970s Nazi-hunters called, yes, "The Hunt."
    The Reporter describes the drama as such: "Inspired by true events, The Hunt follows a diverse band of Nazi hunters in 1970s America as they set out on a quest for revenge and justice — tracking and killing hundreds of Nazis who, with the unconscionable help of the U.S. government, escaped justice and embedded themselves in American society."
     

    David Weil will be both screenwriter and co-executive producer with Peele. The Hollywood reporter says that although a network has not yet picked up the series, several bidders have allegedly expressed interest. The Reporter added, "Sources say the package started going around town following the Charlottesville, Va., neo-Nazi protest and counter protest."
     
    http://www.salon.com/2017/09/21/jordan-peele-the-hunt-nazi-hunting-series/

    Indeed. We counter your one-night candlelight march with our multi-media fantasy extravaganza which will reach hundreds of millions. Guess who wins?

    Read More
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  87. Forbes says:
    @Autochthon
    Laurene Jobs (neé Powell) comes to mind.

    The sisters Wojcicki, Elizabeth Holmes, Zoe Quinn, Gabi Holzwarth, Sheryl Sandberg, and engineering genius Angela Ahrendts all deserve at least a mention.

    I could write a long list indeed off the top of my dome, as the hip-hoppers say. Do pay attention, old bean, after all, many of (((them))) share your values, n'pas?

    You left off Marissa Mayer–certainly the queen of the Peter Principal amongst all those prima donnas.

    Read More
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  88. dwb says:
    @EdwardM
    Ellen Pao: VC firms hire women to do 'menial tasks' and 'clean up all the problems'

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/23/ellen-pao-vc-firms-hire-women-to-clean-up-all-the-problems.html

    Part of the preview of her book.

    Ellen Pao has seen sexism in Silicon Valley firsthand.
     
    Of course, this is an established fact, regardless of the outcome of her lawsuit.

    Pao writes that she found that "the women had twice as many years at Kleiner, but only the men got promoted."
     
    Typical female thinking: success is measured by tenure, not by performance. I assume her book contains zero self-reflection on why she didn't make it to Super Senior Partner or whatever.

    There are many flaws in her “logic” on view in that CNBC piece.

    First, the fallacy you point out that “she has seen sexism” first hand, and that this perception is reality. Now, I don’t know that there is sexism at K-P. It’s possible. A jury said that there wasn’t. But either way, that she thinks she perceived sexism does not make it a fact.

    Second, the innocuous statement by John Doerr that

    There are certain things I am just more comfortable asking a woman to do.

    is prima facie evidence of sexism strikes me as bizarre. It really depends on what these “certain” things are. That I would (generally) feel more comfortable asking a man to be a bodyguard, or more comfortable asking a woman to be a lactation coach would reflect awareness of reality. Context matters, and without telling us what Doerr was asking, the quote is both provocative and meaningless at the same time.

    Third, the question asked during the depositions

    Why do venture capital firms hire female employees, only to prevent them from advancing professionally….Well, if they look down on women so much, if they block you from opportunities, they don’t include you at their events, why do they even keep you around in the first place?

    is the wrong question. If we presume that she is correct – that a company can hire “over-educated” women, pay them less than a man with the same (or, if Pao is taken at face value, less) credentials, give them all of the “busy” work that the bosses don’t want, and then not ever promote them, why on Earth would you not bring in such women?

    This strikes me as so obviously a straw-man, I am left to believe it was presented only to deliberately mislead.

    VC is not the army. They cannot force women to work there. If I thought – for ten seconds – that my company was giving me all the shitty work and paying me less than my actual value, and that I could go do something else that would give me what I deserved, I would be an idiot to stay.

    Why not ask Pao, “if you (and other women) feel that you are getting a raw deal, then why do you stay? Why don’t you demand more money? Why not go start your own firm and take your clients with you?

    Then there is this “gem”:

    female employees did more of the grunt work.

    in a piece where she states, openly, that she and other women are “over-educated.”

    Now, again as I am not in VC, I am not sure what “grunt work” is at K-P. But she seems not to see a connection between her “over-education” and the firm’s reliance on her to do “grunt work” (which I presume is un-strategic, boring technical work like number crunching). Is it at all possible that she focuses way too much on the technical details (i.e., she goes into a client meeting and starts tossing out jargon like “heteroscedasticity” in an effort to wow them with her brilliance, only to be met with blank, bored stares and people checking their iPhones) and has zero skills in the areas of client management and vision?

    I’m a maths guy, and I have seen this happen. Hell; I’ve been guilty more than once myself.

    Being a genius from Princeton will get you in the door; after that, no one gives a shit that you’re brilliant (in your own mind).

    And finally, I find the suggestion that she is “underpaid” risible. How much money did Ellen Pao collect during her time at K-P? I suspect that it was many multiples of what the average American is paid, so the suggestion that it was unfair is bullshit.

    To be fair, I do well, but I suspect she earned more – likely, a lot more – than I did.

    OK, she’s a lawyer and I am a lowly maths PhD. Well, what does the typical lawyer make in a year?

    Parsing further, what I suspect she is complaining about is that there are men at K-P who make more than she does, which is her definition of being “underpaid.”

    Again, the subjective meaning of “underpaid” compares what you are paid versus what you think you should be. But that’s not how it works. No one is “underpaid.” Your employer decides your value by offering you what he thinks the work you do is worth. If you think your worth is more, you say “no thank you’ and find a place that will give you what it is you think you are entitled to.

    That Ellen Pao is a terrible negotiator is not evidence of sexism.

    Ellen Pao is very good, obviously, at one thing, and that is self-promotion. She got into K-P, flamed out famously. Parlayed that failure into a CEO gig at Reddit, where she proceeded to fail. Again. Now, she’s gotten herself into the national media writing a self-serving BS memoir.

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  89. Pat Boyle says:
    @Jill
    The answer to this dilemma is to change your baby daughters to males. You can now start that age 3:

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    The international guidelines, just released by the Endocrine Society, are expected to dramatically alter medical care for transgender children around the globe.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages--444259043.html

    I think Rush Limbaugh first described the operation as an “addadicktome” (say it fast).

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  90. Ok they’ve convinced me ……I’m buying a pair

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  91. Read More
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  92. Pat Boyle says:
    @Coemgen
    Maybe the reference to "white shoes" is an anti-Catholic dog-whistle. Every Catholic boy who's made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

    I don’t think I ever wore white bucks. Possibly that’s because I wear size 16 and therefore don’t have as much choice in footwear as some others do.

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  93. MEH 0910 says:
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  94. Forbes says:
    @TheJester
    Ellen Pao and Hillary Clinton are easy to figure out if you have spent time in corporate America. The story:

    I've spent the last 50 years taking note of the feminization of universities, the military, government, and corporations. I've learned that there is without question a difference in perspective between men and women regarding the way the world works.

    Men want results, results, results. Pure, simple, elegant, and you can very often publicly observe results via metrics in a fact-based world.

    Women, on the other hand, tend to focus on relationships. They spend their time within institutions focusing on relationships rather than results because it's who you know rather than what you can accomplish.

    Taking relationship to the next level, this is the substance of the "mentoring" movement popular among feminists to find these relationships. As a fundamental of feminism, men get ahead with "mentors", so every professional woman needs them on her way to the top. However, I've never known a man to use the term, much less seek a mentor. Yes, we understudy and emulate effective men we run across ... but I've never seen a man seek the official HR-sanctioned mentor-mentoree relationship now common among women in corporations.

    So, who are the mentors? They are almost universally powerful men (directors, vice presidents, presidents, CEOs, colonels, generals, etc.) who agree to take women into their care ... as their ersatz corporate husbands, so to speak. They accept the responsibility to "mentor" the women to assure them their pay raises and promotions.

    Now for the twist. If a woman with a powerful mentor does not get her pay raise or promotion, whose fault is it? She filled the squares; she had the relationships; she spent a lot of time in the right peoples' offices ... so what went wrong? Someone had to be out to get her. The "good ol' boy" network obviously didn't work for her the way it works for the guys, so there must be misogyny and sexism in there somewhere.

    Hence, anger, disappointment, and hard-sought vindication. "Hell hath no fury ...."

    Very effective description/diagnosis of advancement in the corporate world. Men will seek out leaders to follow, to emulate, to learn from. And multiple leaders across varying time frames, even more than one at a time, since advancement is usually about being at the right place at the right time–something near impossible to anticipate, so knowing many leaders is superior to relying on one mentor.

    Women, in this concept of mentoring, mean hitching your wagon to one mentor, which could mean narrowing the field for future prospects. It would be impossible to know in advance that the mentor chosen turned out to be a dead end regarding promotions.

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    • Replies: @TheJester
    Another damaging career tactic that women use is to try to finesse special "walk-in" privileges and other relationships with senior managers that jump the chain of command.

    I've seen numerous instances of women who bragged about or flaunted their special "walk-in" privileges with company presidents ... privileges that no one else at their level had. The women, of course, saw this access as a career booster because it was evidence of their special relationships with the Alpha Males running the organizations. They expected these special relationships to "pay off" (NPI) when the time came for pay raises and promotions.

    However, this is more typically career suicide because it engenders resentment in the chain of command, especially with one's co-workers and middle managers. It compromises the authority of the middle managers and leaves the impression among co-workers that the women are using female wiles to flout the rules of corporate fairness to get special treatment from senior management.

    Co-workers and middle managers at all levels "circle the wagons" against this perceived unfairness. Rather than rapid advancement, at the end of the day the women who use this relationship ploy are more likely to lose their jobs.

    Of course, the women look at these special relationships that failed them as one more piece of evidence that they live in a misogynistic, sexist world that stacks the deck against ambitious women.

    One more occasion for anger, disappointment, and hard-sought vindication.

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  95. MEH 0910 says:

    Clark Griswold Gets Cousin Eddies Shoes.flv

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  96. slumber_j says:
    @Autochthon
    No (American) naval uniform includes white shoes; so far as I know, none ever has. Just as well, too, because now they would just have to be banned for being racist, anyway.

    Service Dress White does, I believe.

    The Service Dress White uniform has been different for the men’s and women’s variations. Men wear a high stand-collared white tunic, with shoulder boards for officers or the metal anchor collar devices for CPOs, white trousers, and white shoes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy

    Let the racism-banning begin!

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  97. Jack D says:
    @Horseball
    i think the better etymology is from wearing white spats, not white bucks.

    No one but you seems to think so. All the sources point to college footwear at Ivy Schools. Apparently, at one time, in addition to “white shoe”, there was also brown and black. Black shoe would be nerds, Jews, commuters and other undesirables – the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder). Brown shoes were in the middle – not the social elite but not in the untouchable category either, just your average Joe.

    This article is from 1953:

    http://www.ivy-style.com/russell-lynes-on-the-shoe-hierarchy-esquire-1953.html

    The OED citation for Salinger is just plain wrong – the term was known and printed well before Salinger.

    Footwear really is a very telling social indicator, even today. One thing that I have noticed that has not been remarked upon is that when you see two teenage or pre-teen girls together who are friends, they will be wearing identical footwear 9 times out of 10. Their clothing styles will be similar but the shoes will be EXACTLY the same. Watch for it – you’ll be amazed how true this is.

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    • Replies: @Cortes
    Brown shoes, as the song goes, don't make it:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Shoes_Don't_Make_It

    Anyway, just as the UK has its "unwritten constitution" so it seems that the US has unwritten sumptuary laws. Skilled grifters must have a great time. Talking the talk, walking the walk and wearing the correct style and make of raiment and footwear.
    , @Autochthon

    Black shoe would be nerds, Jews, commuters and other undesirables – the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder).
     

    Look down. Pull up your pants’ leg one time. Okay, you see the Negro with the white socks?: Not pimpin’! – Katt Williams
     
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  98. scrivener3 says: • Website
    @Trash
    The wikipedia is partly correct. Back in the day (40's and 50's) law firms and investment banks in NYC were divided up by religion. Just like country clubs. There were WASPy firms (Cadwallader Wickersham & Taft), Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own. Same with investment banks: Morgan Stanley vs Goldman Sachs vs Cantor Fitzgerald (Cantor Fitz is a bank now, I think back then they were just bond traders).

    Mostly that's gone, but there may be traces. I bet you have a slight edge applying at Goldman today if you have a recognizably Jewish name, but again, slight. Even in the 80s they weren't overt about it, but there were cultural things. When I worked at Donovan a lot of guys had been in the Marines, and they all had their medals and ribbons framed on the wall. I doubt that was a thing at Proskauer. Or Donovan had the "tea ladies," who were OSS or military widows who would come around with a cart and bring you tea and cookies in the afternoon. That was Wild Bill's boondoggle to take care of his guys' widows while reminding everybody what was really important. Some people loved that culture, others not so much. There were Jewish guys at Donovan, but they were guys who were comfortable being around the other culture.

    And while there were culturally distinct firms, there were also ones that were mixes. Anderson Kill never had an identity like that.

    So true. I worked for a white shoe firm, not so high flying as Cravath but very old school. They had free pastries Monday and Fri served on silver platters in the conference room. Breakfast ended at about 10:00 to keep people from slacking off near the weekend.

    Once they got you in there no one would dare go home before 9:00 pm

    Ethnic nepotism was pretty much gone by 1980. Being a Slavic / Pollack, I never wold have been considered earlier but by my time top half of class at a top law school or law review at almost any good law school got you in. Particularly in the go-go late 1980′s early 90′s

    I think the term refers to the bucks.From Wiki

    The Oxford English Dictionary cites the phrase “white-shoe college boys” in the J. D. Salinger novel Franny and Zooey (1957) as the first use of the term.

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  99. Coemgen says:
    @Anonymous

    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees – engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary – academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can’t understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of ‘spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao’s wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.
     
    Maybe Ellen Pao has a 150 IQ but I seriously doubt Hillary's is much above 115, if that.

    Btw, is it my imagination or do Asian-American women in high-level corporate positions tend to be bitchier, by and large, than white women at the same level? And by Asian I don't mean Indian women, who are congenitally bitchy and condescending (and self-confident even though they are always punching above their intellectual capacity).

    Agreed regarding Hillary Clinton not being that bright.

    Yet, her inability to recall at certain times notwithstanding, she has an impressive ability to remember her lies.

    She is quite proud to note that she “has been consistent” in her responses to certain questions.

    Most people can’t recall the truth as consistently as she can recall her lies.

    She is consistent but not truthful.

    Apparently, consistency and megalomania can take one quite far in life in spite of one having only a mediocre wit.

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  100. Jack D says:
    @Opinionator
    Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own.

    No one ever criticizes Jewish firms for being Jewish, for preferring Jews, or for excluding Gentiles.

    No one ever criticized segregated schools in the South for being all black or not admitting whites.

    This is a stupid take on things, like saying “the law forbids both the rich and the poor from sleeping under the bridges of Paris”. All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn’t get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.

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    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    Too bad she didn't take it!
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn’t get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.
     
    In her case, maybe it was sexism rather than anti-Semitism. Looks like the biggest early snub against her was from her own tribe. Wikipedia:

    In 1960, despite a strong recommendation from Albert Martin Sacks, a professor and later dean of Harvard Law School, Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter rejected Ginsburg for a clerkship position due to her gender.
     
    , @Anon
    The "stupid take" is your endless, hoary repetition of fictional anti-semitic canards, as always without the remotest hint of substantiation. You people tell each other these stories, making them more elaborate and sinister with each re-telling, until finally you're the Jackie Coakleys of religious persecution.
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  101. Jack D says:
    @Coemgen
    Yet, wearing white shoes is a rite-of-passage for Catholic boys. Maybe Pao or Szalai are ignorant of common Catholic traditions. Maybe a stone thrown at a "WASP" that hits a Catholic is not a problem for them.

    “White shoe” is just a metaphor like “blue chip” (from the highest value poker chip) – it has nothing to do with any type of white shoes other than the white bucks that Yale boys wore. Not the white shoes worn in the Navy, not those worn by Catholic boys, not nurses shoes – none of the above. There are many different kinds of white shoes but this reference is to one particular kind. If Catholics took communion with blue corn tortilla chips this would not make them “blue chip”.

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    • Replies: @Coemgen
    Yes, but a skilled marksman marksperson takes into consideration what may be downrange before he she takes a shot. The author (Pao? Szalai?) needs to be more sensitive to the collateral damage that can result from her launching of epithets.
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  102. @Jill
    The answer to this dilemma is to change your baby daughters to males. You can now start that age 3:

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    The international guidelines, just released by the Endocrine Society, are expected to dramatically alter medical care for transgender children around the globe.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages--444259043.html

    That is just evil.

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  103. Jack D says:
    @jayze
    I listened to her NPR interview. She described herself as initially introverted, and still introverted after all the legal attention. Her introverted nature is likely the root of her not achieving the partnership she felt she deserved.

    Ellen Pao’s self descriptions are as reliable at Hillary’s. She is a shameless ho who tried to sleep her way to the top at Kleiner and in no way introverted – that’s just disinformation to throw the opposition off base.

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    • Agree: Forbes
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    And do it with some bizarro Indian guy.
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  104. bomag says:
    @slumber_j

    Perhaps commenter Slumber j could tell us whether his old Harvard classmate Buddy Fletcher, Ellen Pao’s gay black husband, wore white bucks.
     
    I don't remember, although it wouldn't have been at all out of character. There were lots and lots of bow ties, for example. And of course he was in Navy ROTC (at MIT, since Harvard didn't do that back then), so there was definitely some white-shoe wearing in connection with that. In the Navy!!

    https://youtu.be/nmGuy0jievs

    Buddy's failure to make good on his ROTC service obligation to the US Armed Forces might have served as a warning sign to, say, the pension managers of Louisiana and Massachusetts when they were doing whatever due diligence they may or may not have done on his hedge fund back in the day. Evidently it didn't: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," I guess.

    What you wear in the non-summer months if your a wearer of that sort of thing are dirty bucks, FYI: http://www.orvis.com/p/white-dirty-bucks/06l0

    By the way, my Harvard 30th Reunion spam has been especially rich, even by the increasingly grotesque standards of that institution. We're invited to apply or nominate others for, I guess, TED-like talks about ourselves and Harvard, for example. Fun.

    If I were going to attend this or any other reunion, I would propose myself for a talk: "Three World-Class Swindlers I Met at Harvard." In declining order of swindling power the three are:

    Viktor Kožený -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Kožený

    Florian Homm -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian_Homm

    Buddy Fletcher -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Fletcher

    Florian was actually a pretty good friend of mine and a thoroughly amusing guy. Viktor I knew a bit: he got thrown out of Florian's and my Final Club for stealing booze and--as it turned out--not having actually gone through the formality of matriculating at Harvard College. As I think I've said here before, I avoided Buddy at least as studiously as anything else I did there.

    Anyway, it's funny that I knew those guys at Harvard--not to mention Bank of England Governor Mark Carney.

    We’re invited to apply or nominate others for, I guess, TED-like talks about ourselves and Harvard, for example.

    One could do some delicious trolling if chosen to speak: “The astonishing genetic advances in plant and animal science and why Harvard should help in a similar genetic advancement of humans.”; “The important distinction between White nationalism and White supremacy and why Harvard should care”, etc.

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  105. scrivener3 says: • Website
    @The Z Blog
    Ha. This is definitely a northeast term. You hear it with regards to law firms and financial houses, mostly. Maybe it used to mean WASP in the narrow sense, but today it means something closer to "deep state" or maybe ruling class.

    If you catch on at a white shoe firm out of law school, it means you have a chance to work with the ruling elite and possibly join them. White shoe firms always have offices in the power centers of the world and they take on the most important clients.

    I've never heard the term applied to VC shops. Even so, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers is a local yokel, in the view of New York money. They may as well be working from a double wide in the Ozarks.

    Maybe Mx. Pao is guilty of cultural appropriation here.

    I have to disagree. No one achieves power by being a service person to the powerful. They know your place and expect you to.

    Even the greatest criminal defense lawyers, saving your bacon from the worst possible fate, are never welcomed into the circles of the powerful. Instead they are like cowboys. Independent, well compensated, slightly disreputable.

    Connected political individuals can get a lot of clients for a firm they move into. Think former attorney general of the US moving to a white shoe wall street law firm and bringing in the bucks. But good lawyer can be purchased for money.

    A lawyer who achieves public fame, like David Boise, maybe gets invited socially based on his fame. Like a famous chef or a famous doctor, but who ever would think that chefs and doctors are the deep state.

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  106. Twinkie says:
    @Jack D

    a vengeful plot by the white-shoe boys of the securities business, all those nice Harvard graduates in loafers
     
    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless. He shouldn't have been since both are derived from British shoe styles. Bucks, with their rubber soles, were the original tennis shoes and so associated with this upper class pursuit. White to fit as part of the all white tennis outfit.

    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless.

    Good try, but not quite. Bucks are Derbies, not Oxfords.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yes, you are right. Throw Bluchers and Balmorals into the mix and you can easily get confused. But whatever bucks are, they ain't loafers.
    , @Johann Ricke
    Very OT, but via WaPo, China has pretty much come out and said it will annex North Korea in the event of US-NK hostilities:

    In the event of war, it is unlikely Chinese troops would fight alongside or on behalf of North Korean soldiers to defend the regime, as they did in the 1950-1953 Korean War, but they could enter the country to secure nuclear weapons sites and prevent U.S. troops from crossing into the North and installing a U.S.-friendly puppet government, some experts say.

    Liu Yang, Luna Lin and Shirley Feng contributed to this report.
     
    Given my personal experience with the intense nationalism of the average South Korean, albeit of an earlier generation, I expect they’ll be crossing the DMZ to take on the Chinese once they cross the Yalu, with or without American support. The wild card is whether North Koreans might actually start fighting the Chinese to get things warmed up. What are your thoughts?
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  107. Chairwoman Pao still working hard in the grievance industry.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
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  108. @The Z Blog
    Ha. This is definitely a northeast term. You hear it with regards to law firms and financial houses, mostly. Maybe it used to mean WASP in the narrow sense, but today it means something closer to "deep state" or maybe ruling class.

    If you catch on at a white shoe firm out of law school, it means you have a chance to work with the ruling elite and possibly join them. White shoe firms always have offices in the power centers of the world and they take on the most important clients.

    I've never heard the term applied to VC shops. Even so, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers is a local yokel, in the view of New York money. They may as well be working from a double wide in the Ozarks.

    Maybe Mx. Pao is guilty of cultural appropriation here.

    Mx. Pao

    lol

    that is priceless

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  109. JVO says:
    @Autochthon
    No (American) naval uniform includes white shoes; so far as I know, none ever has. Just as well, too, because now they would just have to be banned for being racist, anyway.

    At the Naval Academy they wear them as part of the “summer whites” uniform.

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  110. Not Raul says:
    @Anon
    Trump:

    http://coloradopols.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Trump-whiteshoes1.jpg

    Good point; but it might not have been a WASP who picked them out for him.

    Trump seems to surround himself with trashy people. He seems to have forgotten that money doesn’t always equal class.

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  111. Twinkie says:
    @Autochthon
    No (American) naval uniform includes white shoes; so far as I know, none ever has. Just as well, too, because now they would just have to be banned for being racist, anyway.

    Officers wear white shoes with dress uniforms. I thought you were in the Navy. Even if you weren’t an officer, surely you ran into a few?

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Methinks an annonomous call is going to be made to the S.V. crew...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EADDACpP8Eo
    , @Autochthon
    I literally never once saw anyone wearing white shoes. I suppose I must have encountered some officers in white shoes from time to time, but I never noticed it. I led honour guards, though, so those times I was around a bunch of muckity-mucks gussied up, I was as often as not wearing gloves, spats, a cravat, and braids my own self, whilst carrying flags or coffins, folding flags, firing rifles, and that kind of stuff, focused on making sure the parade, retirement, change of command, funeral, or whatever went off seamlessly – listening for cues, keeping eyes on the other guys in the guard so we could coordinate our movements, etc. – not paying attention to the goofy details like what some commander's shoes. I was also home-ported in a (very northerly) place where whites were worn only a very short part of the year, and of course most of deployments one wears (or wore) cover-alls, dungarees, utilities, khakis, and flight-suits, as the case may have been.

    That's all an explanation, not an excuse; I humbly stand corrected for my ignorance.
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  112. Coemgen says:
    @Jack D
    "White shoe" is just a metaphor like "blue chip" (from the highest value poker chip) - it has nothing to do with any type of white shoes other than the white bucks that Yale boys wore. Not the white shoes worn in the Navy, not those worn by Catholic boys, not nurses shoes - none of the above. There are many different kinds of white shoes but this reference is to one particular kind. If Catholics took communion with blue corn tortilla chips this would not make them "blue chip".

    Yes, but a skilled marksman marksperson takes into consideration what may be downrange before he she takes a shot. The author (Pao? Szalai?) needs to be more sensitive to the collateral damage that can result from her launching of epithets.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    The most prominent white-shoe wearer I remember was Peter Sellers as Hrundi V. Bakshi in "The Party".
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  113. Jack D says:
    @AM

    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.
     
    I appreciate the defense, but what I was trying to get at was that WASPs in general are actually pretty tolerant, given the whole of the modern world and history.

    My goal in chatting with you was not to expand the thinking to make Catholics honorary Jews somehow. Rather, it was to build up some resilience and charity by pointing out that the Jewish experience with whites and WASPs were neither unique nor destiny when things were tense and at their worst.

    The overwhelming impression I have of modern secular Jews is one of brittleness. Anti-fragile is what y'all are not. Part of that is the insistence that Jews historically have no agency and of nursing modern grudges based on that incorrect perception.

    I think you have to divide Jewish attitudes toward discrimination into pre and post Holocaust. Before the war, Jews in America accepted that white Protestant power elite was racist and exclusionary – we lived in a racist and exclusionary society. That was just a fact of life and you dealt with it as best you could – formed your own law firms, country clubs, etc. Jews even began to take steps to forming their own universities, med schools, etc. It’s not something that you enjoyed but you lived with it, as did Catholics, Italians, blacks, etc. You really had no choice.

    After WWII, it became clear to Jews that (even though this stuff happened over in Europe and not here) that racial discrimination was literally a matter of life and death. Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. “You can’t stay at this resort no longer meant “you can’t stay at this resort” but “when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family”. I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.

    Now my personal opinion is that American style mild racism had very little to do with the violent and genocidal European type of anti-Semitism (Americans are very pragmatic, Europeans have a tendency to get wrapped up in ideological purity and take things to their “logical” conclusion – see the American Revolution vs. the French Revolution) but I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @peterike

    Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not.

     

    It's not "melodramatic," it's psychotic. It's also a dodge.
    , @AM

    I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. “You can’t stay at this resort no longer meant “you can’t stay at this resort” but “when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family”. I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.
     
    I tend to agree with peterike. This is not a normal reaction to such events. It's a neurosis brought on by being swirled into our current society that shuns any sort of faith. Which brings me back to the idea that modern secular Jews over react because they are not resilient.

    There's no faith in God, no hope, just the idea they somehow must control everyone's thoughts (impossible) and "remember the Holocaust" if they are to survive. Interestingly they don't seem to all that much into survival if birth and marriage rates are any indication. What we're getting is brittle, semi-attached social climbers with little investment in anyone's future, not even their own.

    Also, the Jews actually didn't go near extinct. (And interestingly there's no neurosis about the loss of ancient Jewish communities around the Middle East that have occurred post WWII.)

    Anyway, yes, millions died but so did millions of Europeans in death camp and in battle. There were actually all sort of Jews able to immigrate to Israel after the war. In 1948, it was over 1/2 million. By 1951, immigration had doubled that number. The diaspora really was and is a diaspora. Lots of Jews were living in the US at the time, as well as places like India and the ME as I mentioned. Jews even arrived from Poland, which may better explain that lack of a modern Jewish community there. (Link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/introduction-and-historical-overview)

    , @Anon
    Even Karabel admits that by the mid-1920s, Harvard's enrollment of Jewish students was nearly 30%--over an order of magnitude higher than their population cohort. I daresay even you might have thought that was excessive, particularly since by all accounts most were the bloodless, un-athletic 'nerd' type that no one wants too many of in their school.

    As to your 'slippery slope' argument that if someone looks sideways at you they must be a Nazi Who Wants to Kill Six Million Jews, as another observer said--yes, that is psychotic. You tribalists create anti-semitism wherever you go, has always been thus, and apparently will always be. The real question is--why are you always and everywhere trying so hard to make it worse?

    , @Hosswire
    So Jews decided that the way to diminish hostility against them would be to push harder, to force themselves on their hosts more, kvetch louder & more forcibly impose their values on the larger nation?
    What an interesting choice.
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  114. Not Raul says:
    @Anonymous
    And yet, if you have worked in various prominent firms in NYC, Miami, LA, etc, you've witnessed the phenomenon countless times. We just don't talk about it.

    It doesn't even have to be a "Jewish" firm. Just needs a critical mass of them in prominent positions, and the road will become impossibly steep for everyone else.

    Mind you, they're not stupid. There are always one or two tokens (or high performers) from the outgroups, just for cover.

    >> It doesn’t even have to be a “Jewish” firm. Just needs a critical mass of them in prominent positions, and the road will become impossibly steep for everyone else.

    Mind you, they’re not stupid. There are always one or two tokens (or high performers) from the outgroups, just for cover. <<

    I've heard that it's the same way in Ivy League admissions.

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  115. @anonymouslee
    Have you ever woken up in the morning and thought to yourself, "gee, I wonder if the tech business world is including Ellen K. Pao enough" well then do I have the book for you!

    If one were to wake up in the morning thinking of Ellen Pao it is quite safe to assume one would not,as they say,be waking up with wood.

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  116. @Jack D
    Ellen Pao's self descriptions are as reliable at Hillary's. She is a shameless ho who tried to sleep her way to the top at Kleiner and in no way introverted - that's just disinformation to throw the opposition off base.

    And do it with some bizarro Indian guy.

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  117. @dearieme
    Are there any white trainer VC firms?

    Tracksuit & Gold Chain, LLP

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  118. @Jack D
    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees - engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary - academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can't understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of 'spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao's wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.

    Jack, great summation of why these women can’t achieve what they think is their birth right. My four daughters are successful and well liked but not world famous. And did I mention happy?

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  119. Jack D says:
    @Twinkie

    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless.
     
    Good try, but not quite. Bucks are Derbies, not Oxfords.

    Yes, you are right. Throw Bluchers and Balmorals into the mix and you can easily get confused. But whatever bucks are, they ain’t loafers.

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  120. @anonguy
    White and dirty bucks were quite popular with the preppy college students in the early 80s, at least in the south.

    anonguy, Born in ’46, so HS was 60′ to 64′. White bucks were very popular with the preppy (me included) crowd. Pat Boone , remember him, wore them. Three other shoe styles that we wore, penny loafers, dessert boots ( ankle high sand colored bucks) and British Walkers. Sneakers were always Keds.

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  121. Jack D says:
    @anon
    I've never heard white shoe used in a way that wasn't negative.

    However, 'bulge bracket' refers to investment banks.

    http://www.streetofwalls.com/articles/investment-banking/learn-the-basics/bulge-bracket-investment-banks/

    They had 'league tables' and tombstones.

    There is a nice snapshot of the 80's residue of them in Bondfire of the Vanities. Where the observant learned that the real money was always in bonds. And a tiny slice of a huge number can be an obscene amount of money. I suppose they existed but the action was Salomon Brothers with the emergence of innovative securitization and Drexel with their junk bonds.

    This is not true. “White shoe” sometimes has the same connotation as “top shelf”. Sometimes it means “old line” (anti-Semitic, stuffy) but there are even , as the Wiki describes, newer firms that are described as the “new” white shoe firms – if “white shoe” was completely negative no one would want to have that name hung on them. The wiki says. “Today, the term is sometimes used in a general sense to refer to firms that are perceived as prestigious or high-quality.” Think of the image of say Rolls Royce autos – a sort of two edged sword.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    Every society is racist and exclusionary.


    Other groups have suffered horrible events. Why should Jewush get exclusive rights to benefits derived from victimhood?
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  122. Gay guys (and some straight ones) at my college in the early 80s all read The Official Preppy Handbook and went out and bought white bucks. They didn’t care that the book was a satire. To them it was a guide.

    What made this especially pathetic is that it was Colorado, where a white buck sounds like something you shoot and eat.

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    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    See, this is the sort of thing I thought the term WASP meant but apparently it now means any non-Irish, non-Jewish human being lighter than a paper bag and able to converse in English.
    , @Forbes
    I once saw Handbook editor Lisa Birnbach give a "talk" on a college book tour shortly after it was published. Absolutely, rolling on the floor hilarious. Of course, one must also remember the disastrous fashions of the '70s with bell bottom pants and pastel-colored polyester leisure suits. After that, the "preppy" look was positively sane.
    , @Anon
    I think it was Paul Fussell in his book Class who said the aping of the mid-upper class (i.e, prep, Ralph Lauren, etc.) was the fantasy that you could just buy the right stuff and BE mid-upper; real upper (today's 1%) was a little harder...
    , @Flip
    That book was satire? *confused look* It seemed pretty accurate to my preppy, Ivy League self.
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  123. Thea says:
    @Jack D
    This is not true. "White shoe" sometimes has the same connotation as "top shelf". Sometimes it means "old line" (anti-Semitic, stuffy) but there are even , as the Wiki describes, newer firms that are described as the "new" white shoe firms - if "white shoe" was completely negative no one would want to have that name hung on them. The wiki says. "Today, the term is sometimes used in a general sense to refer to firms that are perceived as prestigious or high-quality." Think of the image of say Rolls Royce autos - a sort of two edged sword.

    Every society is racist and exclusionary.

    Other groups have suffered horrible events. Why should Jewush get exclusive rights to benefits derived from victimhood?

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  124. Daniel H says:

    >>William Safire explained in 1997:

    … And in 1990, The Independent of London asked, ”Is [Michael] Milken the victim of a vengeful plot by the white-shoe boys of the securities business, all those nice Harvard graduates in loafers who sit in the more conventional brokerage houses?”<<

    If Safire wrote this in 1997 then we can disregard everything he ever wrote about anything in his entire career. The man demonstrated unfathomable cluelessness of the world and life that he lived.

    Jews have been at least equal partners in the Wall Street business since about…..I don't know….1890, or let's make a safe assertion, 1920.

    If he demonstrated such cluelessness about the Wall street world, what else had he been clueless about?

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    The Rothschild, Warburg, Loeb (of Kuhn, Loeb & Co), and Lehman families had been in banking since at least the 19th century--earlier for Rothschild and Warburg.
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  125. @Horseball
    i think the better etymology is from wearing white spats, not white bucks.

    It was my sense that the term is Gatsby-era.

    Akin to white-tie.

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  126. @Anon
    I'm always amazed that you can find some retarded editor willing to give large sums of money to some callow adventuress ala Ellen Pao or Hillary Clinton (adventuress is all Clinton has ever been) for books that the editor knows darn well won't sell. Of course, my cynical side suspects that a deal was stuck for the 'celebrity' to buy enough copies to pay off the book's production costs, and to force the book up the charts enough to keep the editor for being fired for financial stupidity

    As I understand how New York publishing works these days, the editors have little to no influence on purchasing decisions. In the case of HRC’s book, corporate management signed off on the contract in order to buy favor with the Dem power structure. Could come in handy in NY publishing’s fight against Amazon, especially if a Dem beats Trump in ’20.

    And the bestseller charts, especially The NY Times, are a rigged and gameable system.

    Not sure about Pao’s memoir, but probably similar reasoning: corporate management thought it was banking a favor. IDK what favor though.

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  127. Rod1963 says:
    @Jack D
    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees - engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary - academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can't understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of 'spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao's wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.

    Spot on.

    Most of the really smart guys I’ve known in aerospace tended to stay in some tech specialty because they all lacked the basic people and managerial skills needed to move up the ladder.

    Pao from what I’ve read about her, is a emotionally and socially stunted human being. She’d make a good cube drone but that’s it A lot I suspect comes from her rearing at the hands of a tiger mom which kept her from developing the social skills needed to function in the real world and be able to have a healthy relationship with a member of the opposite sex – IOW a boy friend.

    It’s clear she can’t. Hence her “marriage” to a black, gay, flim flam artist.

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  128. @black sea
    The latest, and perhaps greatest, SV adventuress is Amanda Rosenberg.

    Blonde, no; willow, maybe; ultra-shicksa, definitely not.

    Thanks. I was totally unaware of this woman. Looking at DPH’s reply, she at least has the saving grace of a sense of humor. It inspired me to realize that if she were a tranny male one might call her a CHAP (Chinese/Jewish-American Princess).

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  129. @Buzz Mohawk
    Gay guys (and some straight ones) at my college in the early 80s all read The Official Preppy Handbook and went out and bought white bucks. They didn’t care that the book was a satire. To them it was a guide.

    What made this especially pathetic is that it was Colorado, where a white buck sounds like something you shoot and eat.

    http://self-help-ebook.net/uploads/images/the-official-preppy-handbook-lisa-birnbach_1.jpg

    See, this is the sort of thing I thought the term WASP meant but apparently it now means any non-Irish, non-Jewish human being lighter than a paper bag and able to converse in English.

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  130. peterike says:
    @Jack D
    I think you have to divide Jewish attitudes toward discrimination into pre and post Holocaust. Before the war, Jews in America accepted that white Protestant power elite was racist and exclusionary - we lived in a racist and exclusionary society. That was just a fact of life and you dealt with it as best you could - formed your own law firms, country clubs, etc. Jews even began to take steps to forming their own universities, med schools, etc. It's not something that you enjoyed but you lived with it, as did Catholics, Italians, blacks, etc. You really had no choice.

    After WWII, it became clear to Jews that (even though this stuff happened over in Europe and not here) that racial discrimination was literally a matter of life and death. Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. "You can't stay at this resort no longer meant "you can't stay at this resort" but "when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family". I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.

    Now my personal opinion is that American style mild racism had very little to do with the violent and genocidal European type of anti-Semitism (Americans are very pragmatic, Europeans have a tendency to get wrapped up in ideological purity and take things to their "logical" conclusion - see the American Revolution vs. the French Revolution) but I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.

    Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not.

    It’s not “melodramatic,” it’s psychotic. It’s also a dodge.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
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  131. @Jack D
    No one ever criticized segregated schools in the South for being all black or not admitting whites.

    This is a stupid take on things, like saying "the law forbids both the rich and the poor from sleeping under the bridges of Paris". All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn't get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.

    Too bad she didn’t take it!

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  132. Jack D says:
    @Anon
    Proskauer alum, here.

    I think the idea was that on Fridays, more casual attire was allowed in summer, because (a) no air conditioning (worked elsewhere at 1 Wall St. for a while, windows could wind open for ventilation) and (b) partners and tonier associates heading off to the Hamptons for boating/parties etc. Hence, blue blazers, white shoes, etc.

    Also, of course, both expensive to buy and expensive to maintain (or just keep throwing away, I guess).

    Proskauer was a "shirt sleeve" firm: you were expected to take off your suit coat and roll up your sleeves, to show work ethic.

    Mad Men references this when Don goes to work for McCann Erikson: "This is a shirt sleeve operation, Don." Irish = Jewish in the coded language of Mad Men.

    When were you there? Casual Friday didn’t get going in NY until the early ’90s. Before that you wore the same suit on Friday as you did Mon-Thurs. The only time you didn’t have to wear a suit was when you came in on the weekend. Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the ’60s, then spread to California in the ’80s and didn’t hit NY until the ’90s.

    McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the ’60s,

    Business attire in Honolulu ca. 1975 was casual. Hawaiian shirts and moccasins. The legal profession may have been an exception.
    , @Johann Ricke

    I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.
     
    Was it really what Jews felt that sealed the deal? My impression was that in the US, they were pushing on an open door. Outside the democratic West, nobody else felt any particular inclination to make special allowances for members of the tribe. The Soviet bloc obviously kept what barriers were in place. Stateside, I'd say the war put people of many ethnicities and religions at the same place and time, fighting on the same side. Ultimately, it was the bonds forged in battle that shaped more tolerant attitudes vis-a-vis ethno-religious differences.
    , @Anon
    "When were you there? Casual Friday didn’t get going in NY until the early ’90s"

    Yes, around that time. I recall reading an article in the FT about "this new casual Fridays" thing, and memos trying to hash out what was OK.

    "McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms."

    Yes, but the Mad Men world had no Jewish firms, no Jews at all; in one of the first eps, Draper boasts about no Jews being hired "on my watch" and they get a guy from the print shop to pretend to be an exec to impress a Jewish client (a department store -- that was where Proskauer got its start, representing Bloomingdales; white shoe firms didn't want dirty Jewish money); later they hire a squirrelly Jewish guy and he eventually goes nuts. Then, they try to pass off the Jewish takeover of Mad Ave by having an Irish firm (McCann) take over Sterling Cooper. Throughout, the Jew is always a plucky underdog and outsider.
    , @Anon
    My father worked at ADP in the 70's, where they introduced casual attire because of Carter's restrictions(?) on AC use.
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  133. whoever says: • Website

    [nerdgasm]

    The Oxford English Dictionary traces the phrase “white-shoe college boys” back to J.D. Salinger’s 1957 novel Franny and Zooey.

    Wentworth & Flexner’s Dictionary of American Slang, 1960 edition, has this entry:

    White shoe
    1. An archetypal student of the Ivy League.
    2. Having or affecting the dress, manners, attitudes, etc., of the Ivy League.
    Pop. at Princeton at varying intervals since c. 1915; general student use c. 1945 – 1955 only. From the white buckskin shoes that were part of the typical student’s dress.

    Google’s Ngram viewer says usage peaked in 1946, with a secondary peak in 2002:
    [/nerdgasm]

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  134. @Jack D
    No one ever criticized segregated schools in the South for being all black or not admitting whites.

    This is a stupid take on things, like saying "the law forbids both the rich and the poor from sleeping under the bridges of Paris". All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn't get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.

    All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn’t get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.

    In her case, maybe it was sexism rather than anti-Semitism. Looks like the biggest early snub against her was from her own tribe. Wikipedia:

    In 1960, despite a strong recommendation from Albert Martin Sacks, a professor and later dean of Harvard Law School, Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter rejected Ginsburg for a clerkship position due to her gender.

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    • Replies: @AM

    In her case, maybe it was sexism rather than anti-Semitism. Looks like the biggest early snub against her was from her own tribe.
     
    All I know for sure is that we would all be better off if Ginsburg had a career as legal secretary.
    , @Forbes
    I recall stories in the early '80s by women MBA grads that they were offered to take typing tests by Human Resources (then, Personnel) departments, as that was standard approach for female applicants and hires, so unusual were female professional hires even then.
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  135. Truth says:
    @Twinkie
    Officers wear white shoes with dress uniforms. I thought you were in the Navy. Even if you weren't an officer, surely you ran into a few?

    Methinks an annonomous call is going to be made to the S.V. crew…

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  136. @Twinkie

    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless.
     
    Good try, but not quite. Bucks are Derbies, not Oxfords.

    Very OT, but via WaPo, China has pretty much come out and said it will annex North Korea in the event of US-NK hostilities:

    In the event of war, it is unlikely Chinese troops would fight alongside or on behalf of North Korean soldiers to defend the regime, as they did in the 1950-1953 Korean War, but they could enter the country to secure nuclear weapons sites and prevent U.S. troops from crossing into the North and installing a U.S.-friendly puppet government, some experts say.

    Liu Yang, Luna Lin and Shirley Feng contributed to this report.

    Given my personal experience with the intense nationalism of the average South Korean, albeit of an earlier generation, I expect they’ll be crossing the DMZ to take on the Chinese once they cross the Yalu, with or without American support. The wild card is whether North Koreans might actually start fighting the Chinese to get things warmed up. What are your thoughts?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Annex North Korea? The Party's officials are not borderline retarded, thanks.

    There are less ridiculous places to invade if that was their modus operandi(and it isn't). Have you heard of this obscure island known as Taiwan?
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  137. @Twinkie
    Officers wear white shoes with dress uniforms. I thought you were in the Navy. Even if you weren't an officer, surely you ran into a few?

    I literally never once saw anyone wearing white shoes. I suppose I must have encountered some officers in white shoes from time to time, but I never noticed it. I led honour guards, though, so those times I was around a bunch of muckity-mucks gussied up, I was as often as not wearing gloves, spats, a cravat, and braids my own self, whilst carrying flags or coffins, folding flags, firing rifles, and that kind of stuff, focused on making sure the parade, retirement, change of command, funeral, or whatever went off seamlessly – listening for cues, keeping eyes on the other guys in the guard so we could coordinate our movements, etc. – not paying attention to the goofy details like what some commander’s shoes. I was also home-ported in a (very northerly) place where whites were worn only a very short part of the year, and of course most of deployments one wears (or wore) cover-alls, dungarees, utilities, khakis, and flight-suits, as the case may have been.

    That’s all an explanation, not an excuse; I humbly stand corrected for my ignorance.

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  138. pyrrhus says:
    @Jack D
    Pao (who liked to collect Ivy degrees - engineering, law and business) reminds me a lot of Hillary - academically accomplished but with no ability to connect to human beings. She can't understand why others with lesser paper credentials are being promoted over her or why it is that no one likes her. Her IQ is 150 but her PQ (people quotient) is 85. In this, she is a lot like a lot of 'spergy guys but most spergy guys know to stick to engineering or programming but Pao's wild ambition keeps her pushing ahead into areas where she is ill suited and lacks the self-awareness to KNOW that she is ill-suited.

    Since Pao’s actual accomplishments are much less than zero, which is why she got fired by the white shoe boys, I very much doubt that her IQ is anywhere near 150…I’ll guess 120.

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  139. whoever says: • Website
    @Autochthon
    No (American) naval uniform includes white shoes; so far as I know, none ever has. Just as well, too, because now they would just have to be banned for being racist, anyway.

    Re-familiarize yourself with NAVPERS 156651 Chapter 3 Section 5 Article 3501.54.

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    • LOL: Autochthon
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  140. Cortes says:
    @Jack D
    No one but you seems to think so. All the sources point to college footwear at Ivy Schools. Apparently, at one time, in addition to "white shoe", there was also brown and black. Black shoe would be nerds, Jews, commuters and other undesirables - the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder). Brown shoes were in the middle - not the social elite but not in the untouchable category either, just your average Joe.

    This article is from 1953:

    http://www.ivy-style.com/russell-lynes-on-the-shoe-hierarchy-esquire-1953.html

    The OED citation for Salinger is just plain wrong - the term was known and printed well before Salinger.

    Footwear really is a very telling social indicator, even today. One thing that I have noticed that has not been remarked upon is that when you see two teenage or pre-teen girls together who are friends, they will be wearing identical footwear 9 times out of 10. Their clothing styles will be similar but the shoes will be EXACTLY the same. Watch for it - you'll be amazed how true this is.

    Brown shoes, as the song goes, don’t make it:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Shoes_Don’t_Make_It

    Anyway, just as the UK has its “unwritten constitution” so it seems that the US has unwritten sumptuary laws. Skilled grifters must have a great time. Talking the talk, walking the walk and wearing the correct style and make of raiment and footwear.

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  141. @Johann Ricke
    Very OT, but via WaPo, China has pretty much come out and said it will annex North Korea in the event of US-NK hostilities:

    In the event of war, it is unlikely Chinese troops would fight alongside or on behalf of North Korean soldiers to defend the regime, as they did in the 1950-1953 Korean War, but they could enter the country to secure nuclear weapons sites and prevent U.S. troops from crossing into the North and installing a U.S.-friendly puppet government, some experts say.

    Liu Yang, Luna Lin and Shirley Feng contributed to this report.
     
    Given my personal experience with the intense nationalism of the average South Korean, albeit of an earlier generation, I expect they’ll be crossing the DMZ to take on the Chinese once they cross the Yalu, with or without American support. The wild card is whether North Koreans might actually start fighting the Chinese to get things warmed up. What are your thoughts?

    Annex North Korea? The Party’s officials are not borderline retarded, thanks.

    There are less ridiculous places to invade if that was their modus operandi(and it isn’t). Have you heard of this obscure island known as Taiwan?

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    • Replies: @AM

    Annex North Korea? The Party’s officials are not borderline retarded, thanks.
     
    What if North Korea has already been annexed except in name only? What if Bejing already calls the shots for NO? Is that less or more insane proposition then? I'm asking seriously here, because I don't know. Another blog I read has China as who is actually in charge of NO as it's working theory when interpreting news from the region.
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  142. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Coemgen
    Yes, but a skilled marksman marksperson takes into consideration what may be downrange before he she takes a shot. The author (Pao? Szalai?) needs to be more sensitive to the collateral damage that can result from her launching of epithets.

    The most prominent white-shoe wearer I remember was Peter Sellers as Hrundi V. Bakshi in “The Party”.

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    • LOL: Coemgen
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  143. AM says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn’t get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.
     
    In her case, maybe it was sexism rather than anti-Semitism. Looks like the biggest early snub against her was from her own tribe. Wikipedia:

    In 1960, despite a strong recommendation from Albert Martin Sacks, a professor and later dean of Harvard Law School, Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter rejected Ginsburg for a clerkship position due to her gender.
     

    In her case, maybe it was sexism rather than anti-Semitism. Looks like the biggest early snub against her was from her own tribe.

    All I know for sure is that we would all be better off if Ginsburg had a career as legal secretary.

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  144. @Autochthon
    Laurene Jobs (neé Powell) comes to mind.

    The sisters Wojcicki, Elizabeth Holmes, Zoe Quinn, Gabi Holzwarth, Sheryl Sandberg, and engineering genius Angela Ahrendts all deserve at least a mention.

    I could write a long list indeed off the top of my dome, as the hip-hoppers say. Do pay attention, old bean, after all, many of (((them))) share your values, n'pas?

    Thanx for jogging my memory. But if I understand Steve’s use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.

    But we should add the chick that broke the Brin-Wojcicki home.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I don’t follow your argument: you cite women who slept with wealthy men to obtain prominence for themselves as the reason why women who did not do so should not be listed among those who do.

    Do you know who David Goldberg was? Who Sergey Brin is?
    , @Triumph104
    Larry Summers, former US Treasury Secretary and President of Harvard University, was Sheryl Sandberg's mentor for decades. He placed her in key positions.


    How Sheryl Sandberg’s Mentor Helped Launch Her Career

    Sandberg met her mentor while studying economics at Harvard. She and a friend were setting up a new student organization, Women in Economics and Government, to encourage women to major in those subjects. Of all the professors they asked for help, Summers was the most supportive. ...

    The following year, Summers volunteered to be Sandberg’s thesis adviser, starting a relationship that would last for decades. ...

    Summers fully repaid that loyalty. In 1991, when he became the chief economist at the World Bank, he recruited Sandberg as a research assistant. Then, when he was named Treasury Secretary in the Clinton administration, it was his protégé whom he appointed as his Chief of Staff. From there, Sandberg joined Google, the role that helped catapult her to fame within the business world. ...

    Now that Sandberg is in a position of power, she’s taken the opportunity to both help her mentor and to pass the gift of mentoring on to others.

    First, Sandberg defended Summers against accusations of sexism in the aftermath of a controversial speech he gave on womens’ abilities in math and science subjects. She wrote that Summers “has been a true advocate for women throughout his career” and called him “a supportive and deeply caring mentor for me and many other women who had the opportunity to work for him.”

     

    https://www.geteverwise.com/mentoring/how-sheryl-sandbergs-mentor-helped-launch-her-career/
    , @AnotherDad

    But if I understand Steve’s use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.
     
    Anne Wojcicki would definitely seem to be on the list. She is a much more technically qualified person for her role than her sister, but she was sleeping with Brin when she started 23 and Me and married to him when Google downloaded a huge packet of cash to get them up and running, competitive and make it a successful venture. She owes career success to sleeping with Brin.

    Agree on Sanberg. Not fan at all. But basically she seems to be a smart Jewish girl, who has managed to serially impress a number of Jewish men who have given her a leg up, giving her a much faster career trajectory. But, while one's sex definitely has an affect on relationships, as far as we know she wasn't wagging her tushy at any of these guys to get ahead.
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  145. @Trash
    The wikipedia is partly correct. Back in the day (40's and 50's) law firms and investment banks in NYC were divided up by religion. Just like country clubs. There were WASPy firms (Cadwallader Wickersham & Taft), Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own. Same with investment banks: Morgan Stanley vs Goldman Sachs vs Cantor Fitzgerald (Cantor Fitz is a bank now, I think back then they were just bond traders).

    Mostly that's gone, but there may be traces. I bet you have a slight edge applying at Goldman today if you have a recognizably Jewish name, but again, slight. Even in the 80s they weren't overt about it, but there were cultural things. When I worked at Donovan a lot of guys had been in the Marines, and they all had their medals and ribbons framed on the wall. I doubt that was a thing at Proskauer. Or Donovan had the "tea ladies," who were OSS or military widows who would come around with a cart and bring you tea and cookies in the afternoon. That was Wild Bill's boondoggle to take care of his guys' widows while reminding everybody what was really important. Some people loved that culture, others not so much. There were Jewish guys at Donovan, but they were guys who were comfortable being around the other culture.

    And while there were culturally distinct firms, there were also ones that were mixes. Anderson Kill never had an identity like that.

    Thanks. I enjoy comments like this.

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  146. So they would seem more like something that Ivy Leaguers would wear to …

    to satisfy family’s vanity, can somebody tell me, if a graduate of Cornell University ‘s
    Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, may be counted as Ivy Leaguer ?

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    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Immigrant from the Former Soviet Union,

    Responding whether Cornell University may be counted as Ivy League (and not whether your family member be considered an Ivy Leaguer).

    The answers are yes and no! While technically Cornell is an Ivy League member, it does not have the panache usually associated with the IL. I would likewise categorize the University of Pennsylvania. Columbia is more, but not quite fully, IL. Of course these judgements are purely subjective.

    BTW congratulations on your daughter's graduation from Cornell. You have every right to be proud of her accomplishments.
    , @PiltdownMan
    Of course. Cornell is one of eight members of the Ivy League collegiate athletic conference. Other Ivy League types make disparaging noises about Cornell, largely because four of its schools are New York State funded, and hence, technically, Cornell is partly a state school.

    But the Department of Chemistry is a department in the College of Arts and Sciences which is private. Unlike the other Ivies, admissions to Cornell's various schools are handled individually. The requirements of some of the state schools (in agriculture and labor relations) tends to make the acceptance rate at Cornell seem lower than, say, Yale or Princeton.

    But the College of Arts and Sciences is exceptionally tough to get into and quite different.

    Cornell also has, unlike Harvard or Yale, a reputation for not having succumbed to grade inflation, and, unlike Dartmouth or Brown, not being a country club Ivy.

    Congratulations! Your daughter graduated from one of the toughest programs in chemistry and biochemistry in the world.

    , @renault
    Most definitely.
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  147. AM says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Annex North Korea? The Party's officials are not borderline retarded, thanks.

    There are less ridiculous places to invade if that was their modus operandi(and it isn't). Have you heard of this obscure island known as Taiwan?

    Annex North Korea? The Party’s officials are not borderline retarded, thanks.

    What if North Korea has already been annexed except in name only? What if Bejing already calls the shots for NO? Is that less or more insane proposition then? I’m asking seriously here, because I don’t know. Another blog I read has China as who is actually in charge of NO as it’s working theory when interpreting news from the region.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Beijing doesn't call the shots for NK. Chinese politics in the recent era has a visibly different feel and do not involve brinksmanship.

    There was a friendship between the countries, a friendship that ended when Kim murdered his uncle and half-brother(both which were pro-Chinese, in the interest of quick explanation). That was his way of making a point.

    NK essentially plays the US against China, like everyone else in Asia has been doing lately and not an uncommon historical play to try to get two powers to conflict so you can profit somehow.
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  148. OT–the germanised form of female jogger is “Joggerin”. Googling for it with google.de spits out page after page with hundreds of results about female joggers getting raped, murdered, robbed, or insulted all over the land. Slap the result into google translate and you get the gist of it.

    https://www.google.de/search?q=Joggerin

    If google gives you other results in the US, try https://www.google.de/search?num=100&q=joggerin+site%3Ade&oq=joggerin+site%3Ade

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    From hitting your link (in the UK) the words most associated with Joggerin on the front page of Google results are "vergewaltigt" and "missbrauch/t", which my old German dictionary gives as "rape" and "abuse".

    "10.09.2017 - Eine Joggerin ist in Riedering (Landkreis Rosenheim) von einem Mann überfallen und vergewaltigt worden. Der Täter sei am Samstagmorgen"
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  149. There are less ridiculous places to invade if that was their modus operandi(and it isn’t). Have you heard of this obscure island known as Taiwan?

    Much harder target, given it requires crossing 100 miles of open sea. It took all of the US’s resources to do the landing at Normandy, and it was a close-run thing, despite being only about 40 miles from England. Whereas North Korea is right across the Yalu, very close to where China’s strongest military units are positioned, across* from their opposite numbers in Russia. And China undoubtedly has a significant number of agents-in-place in NK, given that it is NK’s ultimate lifeline.

    * In preparation for when the Chinese decide to repudiate the “unequal” Convention of Beijing. For it is written that territory ceded by China is only temporarily lost, whereas land won by China is forever a part of the Motherland.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    This isn't the 1940s anymore. If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops; China has the largest land-based missile arsenal in the world and probably underreports its numbers. In fact, that's more or less what she has been doing in placing weapon systems with ranges that cover the entire operational area over Taiwan.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.
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  150. Forbes says:
    @Thirdeye
    The "rule" she followed was sleep with the boss to get the promotion and when that didn't work she was embittered. Dang, having to make it on merit just like a guy is so harsh!

    And she slept with a married partner, as if that would reflect “good judgment” in the eyes of the other partners, rather than the dangerous and unwarranted risk-taker that it does indicate.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Awww, c'mon! Risk taking is what that business is all about!
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  151. This “Victory over the WASP Ra Ra” stuff is starting to get really old hat. You won. We know. Get over it.

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  152. @Anonymouse
    I think you used to be able to buy them at the Tom McCan shoe chain for ~$25. It definitely was a college-boy thing. And white-shoe law firms meant they didn't hire jew lawyers. I know it'a stretch for Steve but in those days anti-jew sentiment was alive and flourishing. The jews didn't invent it; they were seeing the world clearly as it was. By "those days" I am referring to 1945 to the late 50's of my personal experience. I don't sense any intrinsic maleficient tendency in your soul, but you do not have your head screwed on right about the jews.

    ” I am referring to 1945 to the late 50′s of my personal experience.”

    Three score and ten years ago…

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  153. @AM

    Annex North Korea? The Party’s officials are not borderline retarded, thanks.
     
    What if North Korea has already been annexed except in name only? What if Bejing already calls the shots for NO? Is that less or more insane proposition then? I'm asking seriously here, because I don't know. Another blog I read has China as who is actually in charge of NO as it's working theory when interpreting news from the region.

    Beijing doesn’t call the shots for NK. Chinese politics in the recent era has a visibly different feel and do not involve brinksmanship.

    There was a friendship between the countries, a friendship that ended when Kim murdered his uncle and half-brother(both which were pro-Chinese, in the interest of quick explanation). That was his way of making a point.

    NK essentially plays the US against China, like everyone else in Asia has been doing lately and not an uncommon historical play to try to get two powers to conflict so you can profit somehow.

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    • Replies: @AM

    Beijing doesn’t call the shots for NK. Chinese politics in the recent era has a visibly different feel and do not involve brinksmanship.
     
    Why wouldn't China call the shots, though? China has been 90% trading partner of NK for some time. How is NK getting missile technology in a society that by all accounts is 3rd world backwater thanks to the wonders of totalitarian communism? What about Kim Jon-un leaves the impression he's anything more than a provincial governor at best (and who knows why they were murdered)?

    China gives the NK jobs, it's energy supplies, and even gives it some banking systems. Meanwhile it's in it's best interest to leave NK as an "independent" nation, including as leverage for good trade deals with the West. So what if there was some palace intrigue? All the better to leave the impression in place of independence.

    I guess not finding it all at that compelling that NK really operates as completely independent country, given it's long standing isolation from the rest world except China.

    , @snorlax
    China likes to play good-cop/bad-cop games, particularly with its proxies (see also: Pakistan), and North Korea is very much no exception. If Beijing didn't think Kim's antics are to their advantage, he wouldn't be doing them.
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  154. I’ve got a strong feeling that at the installation of a new commodore at the yacht club, white (not tan)slacks and white shoes are normal. I happened to see this last week at a quite minor yacht club. A lawyer at an exclusive NYC law firm would certainly be a member of a yacht club and would know the rules.

    http://archive.naplesnews.com/images.ashx?file=827336_4891863_ver1.0_640_480.jpg&resize=

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  155. @Look Sharp
    I think they just want to use the term "white" in a negative manner. It's not brain surgery.

    Indeed, this is the deliberate commission of a microaggression. Leftists behave like this, and they psychologically project that behavior onto their political opponents, who remain bemused by the accusation.

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  156. Forbes says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn’t get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.
     
    In her case, maybe it was sexism rather than anti-Semitism. Looks like the biggest early snub against her was from her own tribe. Wikipedia:

    In 1960, despite a strong recommendation from Albert Martin Sacks, a professor and later dean of Harvard Law School, Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter rejected Ginsburg for a clerkship position due to her gender.
     

    I recall stories in the early ’80s by women MBA grads that they were offered to take typing tests by Human Resources (then, Personnel) departments, as that was standard approach for female applicants and hires, so unusual were female professional hires even then.

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  157. AM says:
    @Jack D
    I think you have to divide Jewish attitudes toward discrimination into pre and post Holocaust. Before the war, Jews in America accepted that white Protestant power elite was racist and exclusionary - we lived in a racist and exclusionary society. That was just a fact of life and you dealt with it as best you could - formed your own law firms, country clubs, etc. Jews even began to take steps to forming their own universities, med schools, etc. It's not something that you enjoyed but you lived with it, as did Catholics, Italians, blacks, etc. You really had no choice.

    After WWII, it became clear to Jews that (even though this stuff happened over in Europe and not here) that racial discrimination was literally a matter of life and death. Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. "You can't stay at this resort no longer meant "you can't stay at this resort" but "when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family". I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.

    Now my personal opinion is that American style mild racism had very little to do with the violent and genocidal European type of anti-Semitism (Americans are very pragmatic, Europeans have a tendency to get wrapped up in ideological purity and take things to their "logical" conclusion - see the American Revolution vs. the French Revolution) but I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.

    I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. “You can’t stay at this resort no longer meant “you can’t stay at this resort” but “when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family”. I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.

    I tend to agree with peterike. This is not a normal reaction to such events. It’s a neurosis brought on by being swirled into our current society that shuns any sort of faith. Which brings me back to the idea that modern secular Jews over react because they are not resilient.

    There’s no faith in God, no hope, just the idea they somehow must control everyone’s thoughts (impossible) and “remember the Holocaust” if they are to survive. Interestingly they don’t seem to all that much into survival if birth and marriage rates are any indication. What we’re getting is brittle, semi-attached social climbers with little investment in anyone’s future, not even their own.

    Also, the Jews actually didn’t go near extinct. (And interestingly there’s no neurosis about the loss of ancient Jewish communities around the Middle East that have occurred post WWII.)

    Anyway, yes, millions died but so did millions of Europeans in death camp and in battle. There were actually all sort of Jews able to immigrate to Israel after the war. In 1948, it was over 1/2 million. By 1951, immigration had doubled that number. The diaspora really was and is a diaspora. Lots of Jews were living in the US at the time, as well as places like India and the ME as I mentioned. Jews even arrived from Poland, which may better explain that lack of a modern Jewish community there. (Link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/introduction-and-historical-overview)

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Approximately 90% of Polish Jews were murdered. My parents survived but imagine that out of your elementary school class of 30, 27 were dead and only you and 2 others were not murdered. Imagine out of your town of 600, 540 are murdered including your parents and some of your siblings and only you and 59 others were left. Imagine that 9 out of 10 of your friends and neighbors are dead, murdered. This was my parents reality. They remained sane but honestly I don't know how.

    That being said, that was their experience and not the experience of the American Jewish community let alone those born 2 generations after the war. But this really happened and it was horrid and I don't know why you keep minimizing it as if it was no big deal. Trust me, it was a really big deal.

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  158. @Jack D
    No one but you seems to think so. All the sources point to college footwear at Ivy Schools. Apparently, at one time, in addition to "white shoe", there was also brown and black. Black shoe would be nerds, Jews, commuters and other undesirables - the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder). Brown shoes were in the middle - not the social elite but not in the untouchable category either, just your average Joe.

    This article is from 1953:

    http://www.ivy-style.com/russell-lynes-on-the-shoe-hierarchy-esquire-1953.html

    The OED citation for Salinger is just plain wrong - the term was known and printed well before Salinger.

    Footwear really is a very telling social indicator, even today. One thing that I have noticed that has not been remarked upon is that when you see two teenage or pre-teen girls together who are friends, they will be wearing identical footwear 9 times out of 10. Their clothing styles will be similar but the shoes will be EXACTLY the same. Watch for it - you'll be amazed how true this is.

    Black shoe would be nerds, Jews, commuters and other undesirables – the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder).

    Look down. Pull up your pants’ leg one time. Okay, you see the Negro with the white socks?: Not pimpin’! – Katt Williams

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  159. Rubicon says:
    @Coemgen
    Maybe the reference to "white shoes" is an anti-Catholic dog-whistle. Every Catholic boy who's made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

    https://www.spartareport.com/2017/09/americans-show-hollywood-liberal-elite-think-summer-movie-attendance-25-year-low/

    Summer movie attendance is at a 25 year low. I saw Guardians of the Galaxy & Alien whatever this summer.

    ==
    Can a handful of titles — It, Kingsman 2, Bladerunner 2, Thor 3, Justice League, Star Wars 8 — save an entire year? Doubtful. Pull out of a dive? Maybe. Still, we are talking about only six big titles over four months,
    ==

    Of those big titles the only ones I’m vaguely interested in are Star Wars and Bladerunner — Justice League a tiny tiny bit….

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  160. AM says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Beijing doesn't call the shots for NK. Chinese politics in the recent era has a visibly different feel and do not involve brinksmanship.

    There was a friendship between the countries, a friendship that ended when Kim murdered his uncle and half-brother(both which were pro-Chinese, in the interest of quick explanation). That was his way of making a point.

    NK essentially plays the US against China, like everyone else in Asia has been doing lately and not an uncommon historical play to try to get two powers to conflict so you can profit somehow.

    Beijing doesn’t call the shots for NK. Chinese politics in the recent era has a visibly different feel and do not involve brinksmanship.

    Why wouldn’t China call the shots, though? China has been 90% trading partner of NK for some time. How is NK getting missile technology in a society that by all accounts is 3rd world backwater thanks to the wonders of totalitarian communism? What about Kim Jon-un leaves the impression he’s anything more than a provincial governor at best (and who knows why they were murdered)?

    China gives the NK jobs, it’s energy supplies, and even gives it some banking systems. Meanwhile it’s in it’s best interest to leave NK as an “independent” nation, including as leverage for good trade deals with the West. So what if there was some palace intrigue? All the better to leave the impression in place of independence.

    I guess not finding it all at that compelling that NK really operates as completely independent country, given it’s long standing isolation from the rest world except China.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    NK has found, much to Chinese(and everyone's) consternation, that money doesn't count for everything. Its not operating in isolation from everyone, but rather has successfully managed to politically deadlock everyone to a standstill.

    They were murdered pretty obviously because China did indeed have a plan for NK, which was to "educate" Kim Jong-un to become responsible(as they saw it). His uncle was supposed to be his advisor for this.

    By executing the link to China, he made pretty clear point that he wanted to be free from being told what to do, and when dealing with a variety of risk-adverse entities, sometimes audacity does seem to be the best play.

    Kim Jong-nam was to be the Chinese response, a threat of sorts, that they could replace him. Well, he answered that, too. As others have noted, there's no way now to kill him without creating a quagmire of chaos. He's become the perfect poison pill.

    And to continue on this, there's a huge economic cost to occupation - which will be needed in some form if his regime fell. South Korea, even in the 2000s, realized that they could not afford it. China has its own economic issues, so they don't want to touch it and never really wanted to play that game anyway. Only the US still wants to waste money for such an idea, and China doesn't have an enemy next door.

    So in the end, Kim Jong-un gets to win this round, at least for now.

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  161. Forbes says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    Gay guys (and some straight ones) at my college in the early 80s all read The Official Preppy Handbook and went out and bought white bucks. They didn’t care that the book was a satire. To them it was a guide.

    What made this especially pathetic is that it was Colorado, where a white buck sounds like something you shoot and eat.

    http://self-help-ebook.net/uploads/images/the-official-preppy-handbook-lisa-birnbach_1.jpg

    I once saw Handbook editor Lisa Birnbach give a “talk” on a college book tour shortly after it was published. Absolutely, rolling on the floor hilarious. Of course, one must also remember the disastrous fashions of the ’70s with bell bottom pants and pastel-colored polyester leisure suits. After that, the “preppy” look was positively sane.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    "Sane"

    Got my first adult, office job at the time and found it invaluable for finding a decent, adult but unobtrusive wardrobe -- Brooks Bros was in the same building, how convenient! I didn't have Steve's intern to shop for me at Brooks. Secret: not only does the look not change, the stuff lasts forever -- I still have my first Brooks jacket and tie. Not sure about white bucks, though.
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  162. @International Jew
    Thanx for jogging my memory. But if I understand Steve's use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.

    But we should add the chick that broke the Brin-Wojcicki home.

    I don’t follow your argument: you cite women who slept with wealthy men to obtain prominence for themselves as the reason why women who did not do so should not be listed among those who do.

    Do you know who David Goldberg was? Who Sergey Brin is?

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    • Replies: @International Jew
    The Wojcicki sisters met Sergey Brin when proto-Google was still operating out of a garage. For the one that married him, that's not called marrying for money, it's just called picking a winner — a good, honest part of any smart girl's skillset. Your wife surely wishes she had more of that.

    David Goldberg? Was he ever more rich or successful than Sheryl Sandberg?
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  163. @Jack D
    Yes, you are right. Throw Bluchers and Balmorals into the mix and you can easily get confused. But whatever bucks are, they ain't loafers.
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  164. snorlax says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Beijing doesn't call the shots for NK. Chinese politics in the recent era has a visibly different feel and do not involve brinksmanship.

    There was a friendship between the countries, a friendship that ended when Kim murdered his uncle and half-brother(both which were pro-Chinese, in the interest of quick explanation). That was his way of making a point.

    NK essentially plays the US against China, like everyone else in Asia has been doing lately and not an uncommon historical play to try to get two powers to conflict so you can profit somehow.

    China likes to play good-cop/bad-cop games, particularly with its proxies (see also: Pakistan), and North Korea is very much no exception. If Beijing didn’t think Kim’s antics are to their advantage, he wouldn’t be doing them.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    What can China do, really? Even a collapse of government without any nuclear antics results in an influx of refugees. Do you really think that China would approve of the murder of Kim Jong-nam?

    China has tried in the past, multiple times, to effectively threaten him into submission and he's called the bluffs. Is it any surprise that NK has become more assertive? He's come to realize that no one has the willpower, it seems, to actually try to take him to task.

    A few years ago, I was friends with someone on the US diplomatic team that negotiated, among others, with NK. He mentioned that NK followed a very pragmatic strategy, but one that clearly took advantage of everyone's reluctance to engage in war: among other things, NK would openly threaten war on South Korea and indeed, had murdered South Korean soldiers every now and then.

    Its effectively blackmail, and it worked then to get them aid. I would be encouraged too, if I was NK.

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  165. Forbes says:
    @Daniel H
    >>William Safire explained in 1997:

    … And in 1990, The Independent of London asked, ”Is [Michael] Milken the victim of a vengeful plot by the white-shoe boys of the securities business, all those nice Harvard graduates in loafers who sit in the more conventional brokerage houses?”<<

    If Safire wrote this in 1997 then we can disregard everything he ever wrote about anything in his entire career. The man demonstrated unfathomable cluelessness of the world and life that he lived.

    Jews have been at least equal partners in the Wall Street business since about.....I don't know....1890, or let's make a safe assertion, 1920.

    If he demonstrated such cluelessness about the Wall street world, what else had he been clueless about?

    The Rothschild, Warburg, Loeb (of Kuhn, Loeb & Co), and Lehman families had been in banking since at least the 19th century–earlier for Rothschild and Warburg.

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  166. @snorlax
    China likes to play good-cop/bad-cop games, particularly with its proxies (see also: Pakistan), and North Korea is very much no exception. If Beijing didn't think Kim's antics are to their advantage, he wouldn't be doing them.

    What can China do, really? Even a collapse of government without any nuclear antics results in an influx of refugees. Do you really think that China would approve of the murder of Kim Jong-nam?

    China has tried in the past, multiple times, to effectively threaten him into submission and he’s called the bluffs. Is it any surprise that NK has become more assertive? He’s come to realize that no one has the willpower, it seems, to actually try to take him to task.

    A few years ago, I was friends with someone on the US diplomatic team that negotiated, among others, with NK. He mentioned that NK followed a very pragmatic strategy, but one that clearly took advantage of everyone’s reluctance to engage in war: among other things, NK would openly threaten war on South Korea and indeed, had murdered South Korean soldiers every now and then.

    Its effectively blackmail, and it worked then to get them aid. I would be encouraged too, if I was NK.

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  167. Dan Hayes says:
    @Immigrant from former USSR

    So they would seem more like something that Ivy Leaguers would wear to ...
     
    to satisfy family's vanity, can somebody tell me, if a graduate of Cornell University 's
    Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, may be counted as Ivy Leaguer ?

    Immigrant from the Former Soviet Union,

    Responding whether Cornell University may be counted as Ivy League (and not whether your family member be considered an Ivy Leaguer).

    The answers are yes and no! While technically Cornell is an Ivy League member, it does not have the panache usually associated with the IL. I would likewise categorize the University of Pennsylvania. Columbia is more, but not quite fully, IL. Of course these judgements are purely subjective.

    BTW congratulations on your daughter’s graduation from Cornell. You have every right to be proud of her accomplishments.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear Dan Hayes !
    Thank you for your kind words !
    Your I.f.f.U.

    sonnet 90

    Sonnet 91
    ORIGINAL TEXT
    MODERN TEXT
    Then hate me when thou wilt, if ever, now,
    Now while the world is bent my deeds to cross;
    Join with the spite of fortune, make me bow,
    And do not drop in for an after-loss:
    Ah, do not, when my heart hath ’scaped this sorrow,
    Come in the rearward of a conquered woe.
    Give not a windy night a rainy morrow,
    To linger out a purposed overthrow.
    If thou wilt leave me, do not leave me last,
    When other petty griefs have done their spite
    But in the onset come; so shall I taste
    At first the very worst of fortune’s might;
      And other strains of woe, which now seem woe,
      Compared with loss of thee will not seem so.

    (Continuing from Sonnet 89) So hate me when you want to, but if you’re ever going to, do it now, now while the world is determined to frustrate everything I try to do. Add to my misfortune, make me collapse under it, don’t hit me with this later, after I’ve already endured so many other blows. Ah, do not let me think I’ve avoided the sorrow of losing you, then come and reject me—right after I’ve been defeated by another grief. Don’t turn my windy night into a rainy tomorrow, prolonging the defeat you intend to give me. If you’re going to leave me, don’t wait until the end, after other little sorrows have done their damage. Leave me at the beginning, so I experience the worst misfortune first. Then other hurtful things, which seem painful now, won’t seem so, compared with losing you.
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  168. Achilles says:

    The hiring practices of white shoe New York City law firms had very little to do with religious discrimination against Jews. If one goes back and looks at the rosters of lawyers at these firms from the 1930s on, one can find the occasional Jew.

    But typically these were Jews from old-line, wealthy families who could trace their roots in the US to before the Civil War. They were highly civilized and well-mannered and connected to the banking elite.

    The narrative of anti-Jewish (can we please use the proper term instead of “anti-Semitic”?) bigotry mainly came from the new wave of Eastern European Jewish immigrants.

    And it wasn’t religion that was the objection, it was behavior and culture. These law firms were in the business of serving the boardrooms of corporate America, and they wanted to hire lawyers who were well-mannered and polished and mixed well with their clients.

    Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn’t make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart.

    Of course over the years everything changed, as Hollywood and the media have succeeded in coarsening the entire country. And there are now plenty of American Jews who have long shed the shtetl crudeness of their ancestors and are reasonably well-mannered and polished.

    The difficulty these firms have now is getting smart, well-bred white gentiles from areas other than the NYC region to come work at a white shoe New York firm. This is why such persons as do come are so often gay or lesbian and these firms are such strong supporters of LGBs and the LGB political agenda.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    So much nuance and subtlety! We prefer: Whites bad, everyone else Good.
    , @Art Deco
    Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn’t make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart.

    I was acquainted with a lawyer in Rochester, Wilmer Patlow by name, who was a pleasant issue of the Harvard Law School. And he was untouchable as far as established firms were concerned when he hit the job market in 1955. A friend got him a job as a peripheral employee of a firm for $40 a week ($280 a week in today's currency) and he moonlighted at a vegetable market to make ends meet for several years. He wasn't married until he was past 30. He did not get a satisfactory job until 1962, when his work carrying petitions landed him a patronage job in city government. He had some shortcomings which inhibited him from building a career (e.g. he was bored silly by small-time personal injury practice). His manners were not his problem. Jewish and Italian lawyers at that time worked solo or set up a small partnership with friends. Mario Cuomo, who had a bad temper but was a fairly reserved and bibliophilic man, also discovered at the time he completed law school in 1958 that established firms were uninterested in him, his fine academic record (1st in his class) notwithstanding.
    , @Anon
    "Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn’t make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart"

    That was Ginsberg [sp?] on later seasons of Mad Men, the token Jew -- born in Auschwitz no less! They put him next to the IBM mainframe and the noise made his go nuts.
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  169. @Johann Ricke

    There are less ridiculous places to invade if that was their modus operandi(and it isn’t). Have you heard of this obscure island known as Taiwan?
     
    Much harder target, given it requires crossing 100 miles of open sea. It took all of the US's resources to do the landing at Normandy, and it was a close-run thing, despite being only about 40 miles from England. Whereas North Korea is right across the Yalu, very close to where China's strongest military units are positioned, across* from their opposite numbers in Russia. And China undoubtedly has a significant number of agents-in-place in NK, given that it is NK's ultimate lifeline.

    * In preparation for when the Chinese decide to repudiate the "unequal" Convention of Beijing. For it is written that territory ceded by China is only temporarily lost, whereas land won by China is forever a part of the Motherland.

    This isn’t the 1940s anymore. If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops; China has the largest land-based missile arsenal in the world and probably underreports its numbers. In fact, that’s more or less what she has been doing in placing weapon systems with ranges that cover the entire operational area over Taiwan.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops;
     
    The US dropped 23,000 bombs on Serbia during the Balkan crisis. China probably doesn't have that number of missiles to shoot at Taiwan. Its aircraft will have serious difficulty overcoming Taiwan's Patriot batteries and F-16 squadrons. Even Chinese missiles will have to contend with Taiwan's SM-2 batteries. Taiwan is a harder nut to crack not just because of Taiwan's fairly late-model US hardware and 100 miles of Pacific Ocean the Chinese have to cross - the 800-lb gorilla is the combination of JASDF USN and USAF sitting in Japanese bases. Without air supremacy, Chinese ground forces would merely be fish in a barrel.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.
     
    The degree of "shame" depends on what the leaders choose to emphasize at any given time. Prior to the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, Korea occupied a place similar to Tibet as a tributary state. And yet the Koreas are independent of Chinese rule, mainly because of the Russian thumb on the scale - North Korea was considered a Soviet vassal much like the Warsaw Pact states, and South Korea was obviously an American protectorate. Similarly, Mongolia will remain independent only for as long as the Russians are there to keep the Chinese out.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.
     
    China has repeatedly invaded Korea. Its lack of success during the Sui dynasty led to that dynasty's fall. The Tang dynasty improved on that record, but was ultimately stopped by the Korean Shilla kingdom that had formerly allied with the Tang to destroy its Korean Korguryo rival.

    Ever since the oceans of blood spilled in its unification 2000 years ago, China's ruler has always been the richest man in his region, because he had control of the central plains and their massive productive populations, which typically outnumbered China's neighbors by at least 10 to 1. His military expeditions, typically to less developed areas, had little to do with acquiring wealth and everything to do with acquiring prestige, much as Napoleon obtained gloire in excess without even completing his conquests 2000 years later. Mao wasn't interested in material gain when he invaded remote and barren East Turkistan and Tibet - it was all about his place in the history books.

    As you implied with respect to Taiwan, it's all about the prestige. The pretext can be ginned up in advance of an invasion. In fact, that Chinese censors have been allowing criticisms of North Korea and Kim to be promulgated on the internet is probably a sign that they are getting ready to crank up Chinese popular support for an invasion when the moment arrives. I've spoken to Chinese emigres - pro-Mao zealots to a man - who received green cards through the serendipity of having been on US soil when the Tiananmen demonstrations were suppressed with gunfire, thanks to Bush pere. I've heard opinion to the effect that all of Korea would be Chinese today if it were not for the US, and that it wouldn't be a bad thing if that somehow came about.
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  170. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D
    When were you there? Casual Friday didn't get going in NY until the early '90s. Before that you wore the same suit on Friday as you did Mon-Thurs. The only time you didn't have to wear a suit was when you came in on the weekend. Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the '60s, then spread to California in the '80s and didn't hit NY until the '90s.

    McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms.

    Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the ’60s,

    Business attire in Honolulu ca. 1975 was casual. Hawaiian shirts and moccasins. The legal profession may have been an exception.

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  171. @AM

    Beijing doesn’t call the shots for NK. Chinese politics in the recent era has a visibly different feel and do not involve brinksmanship.
     
    Why wouldn't China call the shots, though? China has been 90% trading partner of NK for some time. How is NK getting missile technology in a society that by all accounts is 3rd world backwater thanks to the wonders of totalitarian communism? What about Kim Jon-un leaves the impression he's anything more than a provincial governor at best (and who knows why they were murdered)?

    China gives the NK jobs, it's energy supplies, and even gives it some banking systems. Meanwhile it's in it's best interest to leave NK as an "independent" nation, including as leverage for good trade deals with the West. So what if there was some palace intrigue? All the better to leave the impression in place of independence.

    I guess not finding it all at that compelling that NK really operates as completely independent country, given it's long standing isolation from the rest world except China.

    NK has found, much to Chinese(and everyone’s) consternation, that money doesn’t count for everything. Its not operating in isolation from everyone, but rather has successfully managed to politically deadlock everyone to a standstill.

    They were murdered pretty obviously because China did indeed have a plan for NK, which was to “educate” Kim Jong-un to become responsible(as they saw it). His uncle was supposed to be his advisor for this.

    By executing the link to China, he made pretty clear point that he wanted to be free from being told what to do, and when dealing with a variety of risk-adverse entities, sometimes audacity does seem to be the best play.

    Kim Jong-nam was to be the Chinese response, a threat of sorts, that they could replace him. Well, he answered that, too. As others have noted, there’s no way now to kill him without creating a quagmire of chaos. He’s become the perfect poison pill.

    And to continue on this, there’s a huge economic cost to occupation – which will be needed in some form if his regime fell. South Korea, even in the 2000s, realized that they could not afford it. China has its own economic issues, so they don’t want to touch it and never really wanted to play that game anyway. Only the US still wants to waste money for such an idea, and China doesn’t have an enemy next door.

    So in the end, Kim Jong-un gets to win this round, at least for now.

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  172. JimB says:
    @Eric Ruttencutter
    I am a lawyer. No lawyers wear white shoes. Anywhere. Ever.

    Only nurses, cafeteria workers, and Tom Wolfe wear white shoes.

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    • Replies: @anonguy

    Only nurses, cafeteria workers, and Tom Wolfe wear white shoes.
     
    And naval officers.
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  173. AM says:

    NK has found, much to Chinese(and everyone’s) consternation, that money doesn’t count for everything. Its not operating in isolation from everyone, but rather has successfully managed to politically deadlock everyone to a standstill.

    Yeah, I mean if you’re good with minimal food supplies and living like it’s 1930 or so, money is harder push.

    But still..starve everyone..remove almost all fuel? China is a position to actually accomplish that in the NK.

    Someone on another board posted NK’s main exports and imports. Exports: coal and knit coats, imports: petroleum and yarn!

    This isn’t some modern robust country that’s standing on it’s own.

    And to continue on this, there’s a huge economic cost to occupation – which will be needed in some form if his regime fell.

    Sure, but there’s an economic cost right now to allowing the facade to continue, if it is a facade.

    If I understood the history correctly, Korea was divided precisely because we didn’t want to go to war with Communist China. If it was just Korea in mix, it was winnable war. Certainly South Korea could take over the North even now, so what’s stopping it? What stopped it decades ago? China.

    China is the center of North Korea’s universe which is why noone is interested in freeing the people caught in the middle.

    That also answers the question of why SK feels the need to send humanitarian aid to NK even as Trump cuts off their economy. China is really in control of this situation, not the native Koreans.

    It’s similar to the question of why isn’t China bombing Taiwan right now? It would win. But China doesn’t want to go war with the US, which is what would happen.

    It seems like this a big a big game of chicken really and I think China may have blinked. We’ll see.

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  174. @Dan Hayes
    Immigrant from the Former Soviet Union,

    Responding whether Cornell University may be counted as Ivy League (and not whether your family member be considered an Ivy Leaguer).

    The answers are yes and no! While technically Cornell is an Ivy League member, it does not have the panache usually associated with the IL. I would likewise categorize the University of Pennsylvania. Columbia is more, but not quite fully, IL. Of course these judgements are purely subjective.

    BTW congratulations on your daughter's graduation from Cornell. You have every right to be proud of her accomplishments.

    Dear Dan Hayes !
    Thank you for your kind words !
    Your I.f.f.U.

    sonnet 90

    Sonnet 91
    ORIGINAL TEXT
    MODERN TEXT
    Then hate me when thou wilt, if ever, now,
    Now while the world is bent my deeds to cross;
    Join with the spite of fortune, make me bow,
    And do not drop in for an after-loss:
    Ah, do not, when my heart hath ’scaped this sorrow,
    Come in the rearward of a conquered woe.
    Give not a windy night a rainy morrow,
    To linger out a purposed overthrow.
    If thou wilt leave me, do not leave me last,
    When other petty griefs have done their spite
    But in the onset come; so shall I taste
    At first the very worst of fortune’s might;
      And other strains of woe, which now seem woe,
      Compared with loss of thee will not seem so.

    (Continuing from Sonnet 89) So hate me when you want to, but if you’re ever going to, do it now, now while the world is determined to frustrate everything I try to do. Add to my misfortune, make me collapse under it, don’t hit me with this later, after I’ve already endured so many other blows. Ah, do not let me think I’ve avoided the sorrow of losing you, then come and reject me—right after I’ve been defeated by another grief. Don’t turn my windy night into a rainy tomorrow, prolonging the defeat you intend to give me. If you’re going to leave me, don’t wait until the end, after other little sorrows have done their damage. Leave me at the beginning, so I experience the worst misfortune first. Then other hurtful things, which seem painful now, won’t seem so, compared with losing you.

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  175. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Father O'Hara
    Why does everyone want to create lasting change (which seems a bit of a contradiction), in MY country? Go back to China,go to Africa,go even to the black ghetto,create lasting change there.
    What's the matter? Not enough spare...change?

    She is too ugly and too too miserable because of her inability to attract and reproduce with one of her own kind. No Chinese man wants her. With Chinese women, the pretty ones find a rich husband and have an easy life while the ugly ones unable to attracted the opposite sex occupy their free time going to school and studying. You will find with Chinese women,the uglier the face more highly educated they are.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    ???

    https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/sEb52atLq3m9EeA-oNvlrxKFh9g=/0x109:2574x1825/1200x800/filters:focal(0x109:2574x1825)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/45806878/EPaoLowRes.0.0.jpg
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  176. @International Jew
    Thanx for jogging my memory. But if I understand Steve's use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.

    But we should add the chick that broke the Brin-Wojcicki home.

    Larry Summers, former US Treasury Secretary and President of Harvard University, was Sheryl Sandberg’s mentor for decades. He placed her in key positions.

    How Sheryl Sandberg’s Mentor Helped Launch Her Career

    Sandberg met her mentor while studying economics at Harvard. She and a friend were setting up a new student organization, Women in Economics and Government, to encourage women to major in those subjects. Of all the professors they asked for help, Summers was the most supportive. …

    The following year, Summers volunteered to be Sandberg’s thesis adviser, starting a relationship that would last for decades. …

    Summers fully repaid that loyalty. In 1991, when he became the chief economist at the World Bank, he recruited Sandberg as a research assistant. Then, when he was named Treasury Secretary in the Clinton administration, it was his protégé whom he appointed as his Chief of Staff. From there, Sandberg joined Google, the role that helped catapult her to fame within the business world. …

    Now that Sandberg is in a position of power, she’s taken the opportunity to both help her mentor and to pass the gift of mentoring on to others.

    First, Sandberg defended Summers against accusations of sexism in the aftermath of a controversial speech he gave on womens’ abilities in math and science subjects. She wrote that Summers “has been a true advocate for women throughout his career” and called him “a supportive and deeply caring mentor for me and many other women who had the opportunity to work for him.”

    https://www.geteverwise.com/mentoring/how-sheryl-sandbergs-mentor-helped-launch-her-career/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Larry Summers is portrayed in the movie "The Social Network" dismissing the Vinkelwoss (?) twins complaints against Mark Zuckerberg.

    So maybe there is more here than meets the eye?
    , @International Jew
    None of which makes her an "adventuress".
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  177. renault says:
    @C. Van Carter
    Ivy Leaguers would wear white bucks "all the time", as the song goes, preferably dirty and beat-up, not pristine like Pat Boone's. In 1990 the "nice Harvard graduates" on Wall Street were wearing Gucci horsebit loafers to work.

    Horsebit loafers are definitely still a thing on Wall Street (or in Midtown, as it were).

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  178. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    I think you have to divide Jewish attitudes toward discrimination into pre and post Holocaust. Before the war, Jews in America accepted that white Protestant power elite was racist and exclusionary - we lived in a racist and exclusionary society. That was just a fact of life and you dealt with it as best you could - formed your own law firms, country clubs, etc. Jews even began to take steps to forming their own universities, med schools, etc. It's not something that you enjoyed but you lived with it, as did Catholics, Italians, blacks, etc. You really had no choice.

    After WWII, it became clear to Jews that (even though this stuff happened over in Europe and not here) that racial discrimination was literally a matter of life and death. Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. "You can't stay at this resort no longer meant "you can't stay at this resort" but "when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family". I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.

    Now my personal opinion is that American style mild racism had very little to do with the violent and genocidal European type of anti-Semitism (Americans are very pragmatic, Europeans have a tendency to get wrapped up in ideological purity and take things to their "logical" conclusion - see the American Revolution vs. the French Revolution) but I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.

    Even Karabel admits that by the mid-1920s, Harvard’s enrollment of Jewish students was nearly 30%–over an order of magnitude higher than their population cohort. I daresay even you might have thought that was excessive, particularly since by all accounts most were the bloodless, un-athletic ‘nerd’ type that no one wants too many of in their school.

    As to your ‘slippery slope’ argument that if someone looks sideways at you they must be a Nazi Who Wants to Kill Six Million Jews, as another observer said–yes, that is psychotic. You tribalists create anti-semitism wherever you go, has always been thus, and apparently will always be. The real question is–why are you always and everywhere trying so hard to make it worse?

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  179. I wear white bucks with a seersucker suit in the Summer to the Santa Fe Opera. It’s a hit.

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  180. @Coemgen
    Maybe the reference to "white shoes" is an anti-Catholic dog-whistle. Every Catholic boy who's made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

    Every Catholic boy who’s made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

    I don’t know what counts as “traditional” but I sure didn’t wear white shoes for my First Holy Communion. The *girls* were in their white dresses and i’d guess white shoes. (I’m not gay enough to pay much attention to female footware–just not where my eyes aim when looking at girls.) But we boys were all in our normal Sunday suits with normal black or brown dress shoes. (Reminder to me–should get my dads’ slides digitized. But I’ve seen the pic.)

    Now I can’t claim to be any sort of canonical Catholic. But this was 50+ in the Midwest, in a middle-to-upper-middle class (skilled tradesmen, contractors, GE engineers, middle managers) parish. Not ritzy but a bit better off than typical Catholic parish in the 60s. We wouldn’t have been skimping if there was some real tradition to uphold.

    Generally girls get fancy clothes for special one-off occasions. Guys just dress nicely. This is one of those nice little sex differences in life that is reasonable (girls care more) and pleasant.

    If there’s been some sort of change and Catholic boys are now having to dress up in white suits and shoes then the gays really have taken charge of the joint.

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    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    Indeed. We wore regular black or brown shoes. I never heard of a boy in white shoes!
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  181. @Daniel Chieh
    This isn't the 1940s anymore. If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops; China has the largest land-based missile arsenal in the world and probably underreports its numbers. In fact, that's more or less what she has been doing in placing weapon systems with ranges that cover the entire operational area over Taiwan.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.

    If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops;

    The US dropped 23,000 bombs on Serbia during the Balkan crisis. China probably doesn’t have that number of missiles to shoot at Taiwan. Its aircraft will have serious difficulty overcoming Taiwan’s Patriot batteries and F-16 squadrons. Even Chinese missiles will have to contend with Taiwan’s SM-2 batteries. Taiwan is a harder nut to crack not just because of Taiwan’s fairly late-model US hardware and 100 miles of Pacific Ocean the Chinese have to cross – the 800-lb gorilla is the combination of JASDF USN and USAF sitting in Japanese bases. Without air supremacy, Chinese ground forces would merely be fish in a barrel.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.

    The degree of “shame” depends on what the leaders choose to emphasize at any given time. Prior to the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, Korea occupied a place similar to Tibet as a tributary state. And yet the Koreas are independent of Chinese rule, mainly because of the Russian thumb on the scale – North Korea was considered a Soviet vassal much like the Warsaw Pact states, and South Korea was obviously an American protectorate. Similarly, Mongolia will remain independent only for as long as the Russians are there to keep the Chinese out.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.

    China has repeatedly invaded Korea. Its lack of success during the Sui dynasty led to that dynasty’s fall. The Tang dynasty improved on that record, but was ultimately stopped by the Korean Shilla kingdom that had formerly allied with the Tang to destroy its Korean Korguryo rival.

    Ever since the oceans of blood spilled in its unification 2000 years ago, China’s ruler has always been the richest man in his region, because he had control of the central plains and their massive productive populations, which typically outnumbered China’s neighbors by at least 10 to 1. His military expeditions, typically to less developed areas, had little to do with acquiring wealth and everything to do with acquiring prestige, much as Napoleon obtained gloire in excess without even completing his conquests 2000 years later. Mao wasn’t interested in material gain when he invaded remote and barren East Turkistan and Tibet – it was all about his place in the history books.

    As you implied with respect to Taiwan, it’s all about the prestige. The pretext can be ginned up in advance of an invasion. In fact, that Chinese censors have been allowing criticisms of North Korea and Kim to be promulgated on the internet is probably a sign that they are getting ready to crank up Chinese popular support for an invasion when the moment arrives. I’ve spoken to Chinese emigres – pro-Mao zealots to a man – who received green cards through the serendipity of having been on US soil when the Tiananmen demonstrations were suppressed with gunfire, thanks to Bush pere. I’ve heard opinion to the effect that all of Korea would be Chinese today if it were not for the US, and that it wouldn’t be a bad thing if that somehow came about.

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    • Replies: @scrivener3
    I once read that for Red China to take Taiwan, they would have to wade.
    , @Difference maker
    Actually Tang consolidation of Korean holdings was also complicated, curiously, by Tibet
    , @Daniel Chieh

    The US dropped 23,000 bombs on Serbia during the Balkan crisis. China probably doesn’t have that number of missiles to shoot at Taiwan. Its aircraft will have serious difficulty overcoming Taiwan’s Patriot batteries and F-16 squadrons. Even Chinese missiles will have to contend with Taiwan’s SM-2 batteries.
     
    My family is actually Taiwanese military and have little time for such fantasies. In the event of hostilities, pretty much all defenses would be destroyed akin to the Six Day War in an overwhelming initial strike and Taiwanese aircraft likely won't survive to launch. Those that do will be within range of the S-400 systems.

    Its pretty much doomed.

    Resisting Chinese forces was difficult and costly even then, and the power differentials have only increased. At one point, it was estimated that resistance could last in weeks until the 7th fleet could make a difference. Now, its in days, even hours.

    Its not really realistic. One of several reasons why Taiwan has been essentially experiencing an overall sense of hopelessness.

    The degree of “shame” depends on what the leaders choose to emphasize at any given time.
     

    Not really. There are some things that at least an entire generation of Chinese on both sides of the conflict have been raised on. I have no affiliation with the CCP, and I know exactly how my father(who is KMT) feels about it. Its pretty much universal.

    Mao wasn’t interested in material gain when he invaded remote and barren East Turkistan and Tibet – it was all about his place in the history books.
     

    It was to reclaim was what seen as Chinese soil, which was pretty uncontroversial to Chinese. Korea has never been seen as such, and the idea that the Chinese population is somehow just prey to the Party's ability to control them is amusing, but really doesn't work like that. A case might be made for Mongolia or even Vietnam, both exceedingly unlikely, but at least that could be argued. Korea, though? Heh. No.

    Taiwan is the Mandate of Heaven. Nowhere else, really.

    You can believe as you wish, but I've grown up around Chinese irredentism for much of my life. Your scenario is impossible.

    We'll find out soon, won't we?

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  182. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    No one ever criticized segregated schools in the South for being all black or not admitting whites.

    This is a stupid take on things, like saying "the law forbids both the rich and the poor from sleeping under the bridges of Paris". All Jewish firms formed as a reaction because top Jewish graduates of Ivy law schools couldn't get jobs at white shoe firms. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was #1 in her class at Columbia and when she interviewed downtown they offered her a job as a legal secretary.

    The “stupid take” is your endless, hoary repetition of fictional anti-semitic canards, as always without the remotest hint of substantiation. You people tell each other these stories, making them more elaborate and sinister with each re-telling, until finally you’re the Jackie Coakleys of religious persecution.

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  183. 2Mintzin1 says:
    @Coemgen
    Maybe the reference to "white shoes" is an anti-Catholic dog-whistle. Every Catholic boy who's made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

    “Every Catholic boy who’s made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.”

    Nope. Blue suits & black shoes were In when I was 7 years old. I remember thinking that I looked pretty sharp, if memory serves. The crew cut hair really set off the outfit. :)

    White shoe law firm is really just a reference to the Old Partners, who were permitted to wear a white patent leather shoes and a white belt after May.

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  184. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Achilles
    The hiring practices of white shoe New York City law firms had very little to do with religious discrimination against Jews. If one goes back and looks at the rosters of lawyers at these firms from the 1930s on, one can find the occasional Jew.

    But typically these were Jews from old-line, wealthy families who could trace their roots in the US to before the Civil War. They were highly civilized and well-mannered and connected to the banking elite.

    The narrative of anti-Jewish (can we please use the proper term instead of "anti-Semitic"?) bigotry mainly came from the new wave of Eastern European Jewish immigrants.

    And it wasn't religion that was the objection, it was behavior and culture. These law firms were in the business of serving the boardrooms of corporate America, and they wanted to hire lawyers who were well-mannered and polished and mixed well with their clients.

    Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn't make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart.

    Of course over the years everything changed, as Hollywood and the media have succeeded in coarsening the entire country. And there are now plenty of American Jews who have long shed the shtetl crudeness of their ancestors and are reasonably well-mannered and polished.

    The difficulty these firms have now is getting smart, well-bred white gentiles from areas other than the NYC region to come work at a white shoe New York firm. This is why such persons as do come are so often gay or lesbian and these firms are such strong supporters of LGBs and the LGB political agenda.

    So much nuance and subtlety! We prefer: Whites bad, everyone else Good.

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  185. @Jack D
    When were you there? Casual Friday didn't get going in NY until the early '90s. Before that you wore the same suit on Friday as you did Mon-Thurs. The only time you didn't have to wear a suit was when you came in on the weekend. Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the '60s, then spread to California in the '80s and didn't hit NY until the '90s.

    McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms.

    I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.

    Was it really what Jews felt that sealed the deal? My impression was that in the US, they were pushing on an open door. Outside the democratic West, nobody else felt any particular inclination to make special allowances for members of the tribe. The Soviet bloc obviously kept what barriers were in place. Stateside, I’d say the war put people of many ethnicities and religions at the same place and time, fighting on the same side. Ultimately, it was the bonds forged in battle that shaped more tolerant attitudes vis-a-vis ethno-religious differences.

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  186. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Between the internecine Asian wars on here and the endless WASP-bashing by the “Usual Suspects” this place is beginning to resemble the rest of the internet at bit too much.

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    • Agree: PiltdownMan
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  187. scrivener3 says: • Website
    @Johann Ricke

    If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops;
     
    The US dropped 23,000 bombs on Serbia during the Balkan crisis. China probably doesn't have that number of missiles to shoot at Taiwan. Its aircraft will have serious difficulty overcoming Taiwan's Patriot batteries and F-16 squadrons. Even Chinese missiles will have to contend with Taiwan's SM-2 batteries. Taiwan is a harder nut to crack not just because of Taiwan's fairly late-model US hardware and 100 miles of Pacific Ocean the Chinese have to cross - the 800-lb gorilla is the combination of JASDF USN and USAF sitting in Japanese bases. Without air supremacy, Chinese ground forces would merely be fish in a barrel.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.
     
    The degree of "shame" depends on what the leaders choose to emphasize at any given time. Prior to the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, Korea occupied a place similar to Tibet as a tributary state. And yet the Koreas are independent of Chinese rule, mainly because of the Russian thumb on the scale - North Korea was considered a Soviet vassal much like the Warsaw Pact states, and South Korea was obviously an American protectorate. Similarly, Mongolia will remain independent only for as long as the Russians are there to keep the Chinese out.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.
     
    China has repeatedly invaded Korea. Its lack of success during the Sui dynasty led to that dynasty's fall. The Tang dynasty improved on that record, but was ultimately stopped by the Korean Shilla kingdom that had formerly allied with the Tang to destroy its Korean Korguryo rival.

    Ever since the oceans of blood spilled in its unification 2000 years ago, China's ruler has always been the richest man in his region, because he had control of the central plains and their massive productive populations, which typically outnumbered China's neighbors by at least 10 to 1. His military expeditions, typically to less developed areas, had little to do with acquiring wealth and everything to do with acquiring prestige, much as Napoleon obtained gloire in excess without even completing his conquests 2000 years later. Mao wasn't interested in material gain when he invaded remote and barren East Turkistan and Tibet - it was all about his place in the history books.

    As you implied with respect to Taiwan, it's all about the prestige. The pretext can be ginned up in advance of an invasion. In fact, that Chinese censors have been allowing criticisms of North Korea and Kim to be promulgated on the internet is probably a sign that they are getting ready to crank up Chinese popular support for an invasion when the moment arrives. I've spoken to Chinese emigres - pro-Mao zealots to a man - who received green cards through the serendipity of having been on US soil when the Tiananmen demonstrations were suppressed with gunfire, thanks to Bush pere. I've heard opinion to the effect that all of Korea would be Chinese today if it were not for the US, and that it wouldn't be a bad thing if that somehow came about.

    I once read that for Red China to take Taiwan, they would have to wade.

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  188. I recall that The Associates was a sitcom about a white shoe Wall Street law firm. It starred Wilfred Hyde-White, the droll English actor as the WASP partner—a little incongruously. Quite a good show, but it was cancelled after a few episodes.

    In the ’80s in the course of work in New York as a very junior minion, I met corporate law partners at firm such as Cravath Swaine and Moore, Skadden Arps and Simpson Thacher. To a man, they were identifiably upper-crust-educated East Coast American types.

    No one actually wore white shoes at that late date, but I do remember seersucker or khaki cotton suits being the norm on Fridays. The senior types all had country or beach homes for the summer weekends and that was considered to be suitably casual in preparation.

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  189. @Triumph104
    Larry Summers, former US Treasury Secretary and President of Harvard University, was Sheryl Sandberg's mentor for decades. He placed her in key positions.


    How Sheryl Sandberg’s Mentor Helped Launch Her Career

    Sandberg met her mentor while studying economics at Harvard. She and a friend were setting up a new student organization, Women in Economics and Government, to encourage women to major in those subjects. Of all the professors they asked for help, Summers was the most supportive. ...

    The following year, Summers volunteered to be Sandberg’s thesis adviser, starting a relationship that would last for decades. ...

    Summers fully repaid that loyalty. In 1991, when he became the chief economist at the World Bank, he recruited Sandberg as a research assistant. Then, when he was named Treasury Secretary in the Clinton administration, it was his protégé whom he appointed as his Chief of Staff. From there, Sandberg joined Google, the role that helped catapult her to fame within the business world. ...

    Now that Sandberg is in a position of power, she’s taken the opportunity to both help her mentor and to pass the gift of mentoring on to others.

    First, Sandberg defended Summers against accusations of sexism in the aftermath of a controversial speech he gave on womens’ abilities in math and science subjects. She wrote that Summers “has been a true advocate for women throughout his career” and called him “a supportive and deeply caring mentor for me and many other women who had the opportunity to work for him.”

     

    https://www.geteverwise.com/mentoring/how-sheryl-sandbergs-mentor-helped-launch-her-career/

    Larry Summers is portrayed in the movie “The Social Network” dismissing the Vinkelwoss (?) twins complaints against Mark Zuckerberg.

    So maybe there is more here than meets the eye?

    Read More
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    The guy who acted as Summers, Douglas Urbanski, did a great job.

    https://youtu.be/Y3JtmZugzl4
    , @Triumph104
    Well, that is the final piece of the Sheryl Sandberg career trajectory puzzle. I was not aware of the Summers-Zuckerberg connection.
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  190. scrivener3 says: • Website
    @Trash
    The wikipedia is partly correct. Back in the day (40's and 50's) law firms and investment banks in NYC were divided up by religion. Just like country clubs. There were WASPy firms (Cadwallader Wickersham & Taft), Jewish ones (Proskauer Rose Goetz & Mendelssohn) and Catholic ones (Donovan Leisure, founded by Wild Bill Donovan of OSS fame). Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own. Same with investment banks: Morgan Stanley vs Goldman Sachs vs Cantor Fitzgerald (Cantor Fitz is a bank now, I think back then they were just bond traders).

    Mostly that's gone, but there may be traces. I bet you have a slight edge applying at Goldman today if you have a recognizably Jewish name, but again, slight. Even in the 80s they weren't overt about it, but there were cultural things. When I worked at Donovan a lot of guys had been in the Marines, and they all had their medals and ribbons framed on the wall. I doubt that was a thing at Proskauer. Or Donovan had the "tea ladies," who were OSS or military widows who would come around with a cart and bring you tea and cookies in the afternoon. That was Wild Bill's boondoggle to take care of his guys' widows while reminding everybody what was really important. Some people loved that culture, others not so much. There were Jewish guys at Donovan, but they were guys who were comfortable being around the other culture.

    And while there were culturally distinct firms, there were also ones that were mixes. Anderson Kill never had an identity like that.

    Rather than the White Shoe ones being anti-semitic, it seemed like they all happier staying with their own.

    It wasn’t just happier staying with their own. The WASP’s were here first and they built these . . . Institutions, powerful law firms, country clubs, summer home enclaves, banks.

    Newcomers like Catholics and Jews often did not have as much polish and were not welcome in those institutions. So the sharper newcomers built their own parallel institutions. When Lebanese Jews were unwelcome in the tonier NJ shore communities, they bought up Deal and turned it into a even more luxurious community. When Ridgewood, NJ excluded some, the richer of the some built Wyckoff.

    When my wife and I looked for a home in the Hamptons (known by me from summer shares with Wall St co-workers) the real estate agent showed us a barn and said there was nothing else on the market. There was exclusion and the natural reaction to exclusion was making you own.

    Wachtell Lipton (not white shoe) outdid Cravath in every way, in part by taking on takeover work. A proper WASP would never try to undermine a man’s livelihood just to make a buck. The buck in takeover work was so large, Scadden Arps (white shoe, counsel to Citicorp) became number two.

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  191. @Immigrant from former USSR

    So they would seem more like something that Ivy Leaguers would wear to ...
     
    to satisfy family's vanity, can somebody tell me, if a graduate of Cornell University 's
    Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, may be counted as Ivy Leaguer ?

    Of course. Cornell is one of eight members of the Ivy League collegiate athletic conference. Other Ivy League types make disparaging noises about Cornell, largely because four of its schools are New York State funded, and hence, technically, Cornell is partly a state school.

    But the Department of Chemistry is a department in the College of Arts and Sciences which is private. Unlike the other Ivies, admissions to Cornell’s various schools are handled individually. The requirements of some of the state schools (in agriculture and labor relations) tends to make the acceptance rate at Cornell seem lower than, say, Yale or Princeton.

    But the College of Arts and Sciences is exceptionally tough to get into and quite different.

    Cornell also has, unlike Harvard or Yale, a reputation for not having succumbed to grade inflation, and, unlike Dartmouth or Brown, not being a country club Ivy.

    Congratulations! Your daughter graduated from one of the toughest programs in chemistry and biochemistry in the world.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
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  192. @Steve Sailer
    Larry Summers is portrayed in the movie "The Social Network" dismissing the Vinkelwoss (?) twins complaints against Mark Zuckerberg.

    So maybe there is more here than meets the eye?

    The guy who acted as Summers, Douglas Urbanski, did a great job.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    Indeed.
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  193. @Johann Ricke

    If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops;
     
    The US dropped 23,000 bombs on Serbia during the Balkan crisis. China probably doesn't have that number of missiles to shoot at Taiwan. Its aircraft will have serious difficulty overcoming Taiwan's Patriot batteries and F-16 squadrons. Even Chinese missiles will have to contend with Taiwan's SM-2 batteries. Taiwan is a harder nut to crack not just because of Taiwan's fairly late-model US hardware and 100 miles of Pacific Ocean the Chinese have to cross - the 800-lb gorilla is the combination of JASDF USN and USAF sitting in Japanese bases. Without air supremacy, Chinese ground forces would merely be fish in a barrel.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.
     
    The degree of "shame" depends on what the leaders choose to emphasize at any given time. Prior to the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, Korea occupied a place similar to Tibet as a tributary state. And yet the Koreas are independent of Chinese rule, mainly because of the Russian thumb on the scale - North Korea was considered a Soviet vassal much like the Warsaw Pact states, and South Korea was obviously an American protectorate. Similarly, Mongolia will remain independent only for as long as the Russians are there to keep the Chinese out.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.
     
    China has repeatedly invaded Korea. Its lack of success during the Sui dynasty led to that dynasty's fall. The Tang dynasty improved on that record, but was ultimately stopped by the Korean Shilla kingdom that had formerly allied with the Tang to destroy its Korean Korguryo rival.

    Ever since the oceans of blood spilled in its unification 2000 years ago, China's ruler has always been the richest man in his region, because he had control of the central plains and their massive productive populations, which typically outnumbered China's neighbors by at least 10 to 1. His military expeditions, typically to less developed areas, had little to do with acquiring wealth and everything to do with acquiring prestige, much as Napoleon obtained gloire in excess without even completing his conquests 2000 years later. Mao wasn't interested in material gain when he invaded remote and barren East Turkistan and Tibet - it was all about his place in the history books.

    As you implied with respect to Taiwan, it's all about the prestige. The pretext can be ginned up in advance of an invasion. In fact, that Chinese censors have been allowing criticisms of North Korea and Kim to be promulgated on the internet is probably a sign that they are getting ready to crank up Chinese popular support for an invasion when the moment arrives. I've spoken to Chinese emigres - pro-Mao zealots to a man - who received green cards through the serendipity of having been on US soil when the Tiananmen demonstrations were suppressed with gunfire, thanks to Bush pere. I've heard opinion to the effect that all of Korea would be Chinese today if it were not for the US, and that it wouldn't be a bad thing if that somehow came about.

    Actually Tang consolidation of Korean holdings was also complicated, curiously, by Tibet

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  194. @Anonymouse
    I think you used to be able to buy them at the Tom McCan shoe chain for ~$25. It definitely was a college-boy thing. And white-shoe law firms meant they didn't hire jew lawyers. I know it'a stretch for Steve but in those days anti-jew sentiment was alive and flourishing. The jews didn't invent it; they were seeing the world clearly as it was. By "those days" I am referring to 1945 to the late 50's of my personal experience. I don't sense any intrinsic maleficient tendency in your soul, but you do not have your head screwed on right about the jews.

    And white-shoe law firms meant they didn’t hire jew lawyers. I know it’a stretch for Steve but in those days anti-jew sentiment was alive and flourishing. The jews didn’t invent it; they were seeing the world clearly as it was.

    Uh … so what?

    Don’t want to speak for Steve, but I don’t think he or anyone is denying “anti-Semitism” or negative perceptions of Jews. (Although the exact claims in many cases–like the Golfocaust–might be more complicated, exaggerated or flat out bogus.)

    But–and this is the part that Jews just don’t seem to wrap their heads around:

    –> People are naturally “groupish”. They like being part of a group and being with/around people like them. (Who speak the same language, share the same values, have the same culture.)

    –> The Jews themselves are *super-groupish*. Historically perhaps the most tribal people in the civilized world. They’re spent 2000+ in diaspora specifically refusing to integrate into their surrounding communities. They have their own tribal religion. With a bunch of rules and practices specifically to discourage any socialization with us grubby goyim and enforce tribal endogamy. (It’s actually Western gentiles who developed non-tribal and uniquely open national cultures–so open it’s killing us now!)

    So there were “white-shoe” law firms where well-heeled WASPs who went to the right schools would hire young well-heeled WASPs who went to the right schools to represent businesses owned by well-heeled WASPs who went to the right schools. And they didn’t find those graspy upstart Jews to be “their kind of people”. Ok.

    You telling me I couldn’t find Jewish law firms? That I can’t find Jewish businesses and Jewish run organizations who hire with a strong hint of ethnic-nepotism–not just then, but right now?

    WASP country clubs 100 years back that didn’t or tended not to admit Jews–not “their kind of people” –> “Anti-Semitism!”

    The Century Country Club today –> “well um, uh … its nice to be able to get together and socialize with people with shared values and the common experience of discrimination”

    The Jews basic demand is
    –> our stuff is our stuff
    –> your stuff … should be open to Jews.

    Jewish in-group discrimination–tribal solidarity!
    Gentile in-group discrimination–”racism!”, “Anti-Semitism!”

    Sorry, but I just don’t find this whole Jewish narrative very compelling. You want to be a separate tribe–great! But no one else has to love you nor treat you like you haven’t separated yourself off.

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  195. @Hunsdon
    Ms Szalai's opening paragraph reminded me of Hillary.

    Ms Szalai’s opening paragraph reminded me of Hillary.

    I wasn’t specifically thinking Hillary, but this

    There’s a particular kind of resentment that can fester when a self-described rule follower feels she did everything right only to be thwarted by unwritten rules that feel arbitrary and wrong.

    definitely struck me same way.

    Ellen Pao strikes me as having an incredible–and somewhat female–sense of entitlement. She seems to think that she did X,Y and Z and therefore … she is entitled to be an insanely rich master of the universe. Huh?

    If she feels Kleiner-Perkins didn’t treat her well or wasn’t promoting her fast enough (has anyone ever thought their employer appreciated them properly?), then take it elsewhere. If Kleiner-Perkins is actually wrong, and Ellen is really a super-duper rainmaker then she should land somewhere else, or if she’s really all that, open her own shop. Just do it.

    But a lot of people–and it seems a huge chunk of “well-educated” women–really seem to think that if they dot their i’s and cross their t’s that they are entitled to stuff. Not by actually creating stuff themselves … but just by showing up. Hillary was–”incompetent” really isn’t fair but “mediocre” is more than fair–mediocre at the functional part of every job she held, while climbing the greasy pole and seemed to believe that qualified her to be President of the United States.

    Ellen Pao seems to think she was entitled to all sorts of goodies at Kleiner-Perkins … just because. And seems to continue to think that somehow her not having said goodies is some sort of great moral crisis that the rest of us should pay attention to.

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  196. @Johann Ricke

    If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would just missile everything on the island immediately and then deploy troops;
     
    The US dropped 23,000 bombs on Serbia during the Balkan crisis. China probably doesn't have that number of missiles to shoot at Taiwan. Its aircraft will have serious difficulty overcoming Taiwan's Patriot batteries and F-16 squadrons. Even Chinese missiles will have to contend with Taiwan's SM-2 batteries. Taiwan is a harder nut to crack not just because of Taiwan's fairly late-model US hardware and 100 miles of Pacific Ocean the Chinese have to cross - the 800-lb gorilla is the combination of JASDF USN and USAF sitting in Japanese bases. Without air supremacy, Chinese ground forces would merely be fish in a barrel.

    A treaty seen as a national shame will never be acknowledged by the country, regardless of the government in place.
     
    The degree of "shame" depends on what the leaders choose to emphasize at any given time. Prior to the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, Korea occupied a place similar to Tibet as a tributary state. And yet the Koreas are independent of Chinese rule, mainly because of the Russian thumb on the scale - North Korea was considered a Soviet vassal much like the Warsaw Pact states, and South Korea was obviously an American protectorate. Similarly, Mongolia will remain independent only for as long as the Russians are there to keep the Chinese out.

    But extending from that, invading North Korea is pointless. Its not really part of the land that the Chinese have ever had much interest in acquiring.
     
    China has repeatedly invaded Korea. Its lack of success during the Sui dynasty led to that dynasty's fall. The Tang dynasty improved on that record, but was ultimately stopped by the Korean Shilla kingdom that had formerly allied with the Tang to destroy its Korean Korguryo rival.

    Ever since the oceans of blood spilled in its unification 2000 years ago, China's ruler has always been the richest man in his region, because he had control of the central plains and their massive productive populations, which typically outnumbered China's neighbors by at least 10 to 1. His military expeditions, typically to less developed areas, had little to do with acquiring wealth and everything to do with acquiring prestige, much as Napoleon obtained gloire in excess without even completing his conquests 2000 years later. Mao wasn't interested in material gain when he invaded remote and barren East Turkistan and Tibet - it was all about his place in the history books.

    As you implied with respect to Taiwan, it's all about the prestige. The pretext can be ginned up in advance of an invasion. In fact, that Chinese censors have been allowing criticisms of North Korea and Kim to be promulgated on the internet is probably a sign that they are getting ready to crank up Chinese popular support for an invasion when the moment arrives. I've spoken to Chinese emigres - pro-Mao zealots to a man - who received green cards through the serendipity of having been on US soil when the Tiananmen demonstrations were suppressed with gunfire, thanks to Bush pere. I've heard opinion to the effect that all of Korea would be Chinese today if it were not for the US, and that it wouldn't be a bad thing if that somehow came about.

    The US dropped 23,000 bombs on Serbia during the Balkan crisis. China probably doesn’t have that number of missiles to shoot at Taiwan. Its aircraft will have serious difficulty overcoming Taiwan’s Patriot batteries and F-16 squadrons. Even Chinese missiles will have to contend with Taiwan’s SM-2 batteries.

    My family is actually Taiwanese military and have little time for such fantasies. In the event of hostilities, pretty much all defenses would be destroyed akin to the Six Day War in an overwhelming initial strike and Taiwanese aircraft likely won’t survive to launch. Those that do will be within range of the S-400 systems.

    Its pretty much doomed.

    Resisting Chinese forces was difficult and costly even then, and the power differentials have only increased. At one point, it was estimated that resistance could last in weeks until the 7th fleet could make a difference. Now, its in days, even hours.

    Its not really realistic. One of several reasons why Taiwan has been essentially experiencing an overall sense of hopelessness.

    The degree of “shame” depends on what the leaders choose to emphasize at any given time.

    Not really. There are some things that at least an entire generation of Chinese on both sides of the conflict have been raised on. I have no affiliation with the CCP, and I know exactly how my father(who is KMT) feels about it. Its pretty much universal.

    Mao wasn’t interested in material gain when he invaded remote and barren East Turkistan and Tibet – it was all about his place in the history books.

    It was to reclaim was what seen as Chinese soil, which was pretty uncontroversial to Chinese. Korea has never been seen as such, and the idea that the Chinese population is somehow just prey to the Party’s ability to control them is amusing, but really doesn’t work like that. A case might be made for Mongolia or even Vietnam, both exceedingly unlikely, but at least that could be argued. Korea, though? Heh. No.

    Taiwan is the Mandate of Heaven. Nowhere else, really.

    You can believe as you wish, but I’ve grown up around Chinese irredentism for much of my life. Your scenario is impossible.

    We’ll find out soon, won’t we?

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  197. renault says:
    @Immigrant from former USSR

    So they would seem more like something that Ivy Leaguers would wear to ...
     
    to satisfy family's vanity, can somebody tell me, if a graduate of Cornell University 's
    Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, may be counted as Ivy Leaguer ?

    Most definitely.

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    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear
    renault:
    Thank you for your kind affirmation.
    I still have a sticker "Cornell University"
    at the rear view window of my "Toyota Camry 1994".
    Your I.f.f.U.
    , @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear
    renault:
    Thank you for your kind affirmation.
    I still have the sticker “Cornell University”
    at the rear view window of my “Toyota Camry 1994″.
    Your I.f.f.U.
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  198. @theo the kraut
    OT--the germanised form of female jogger is "Joggerin". Googling for it with google.de spits out page after page with hundreds of results about female joggers getting raped, murdered, robbed, or insulted all over the land. Slap the result into google translate and you get the gist of it.

    https://www.google.de/search?q=Joggerin

    If google gives you other results in the US, try https://www.google.de/search?num=100&q=joggerin+site%3Ade&oq=joggerin+site%3Ade

    From hitting your link (in the UK) the words most associated with Joggerin on the front page of Google results are “vergewaltigt” and “missbrauch/t”, which my old German dictionary gives as “rape” and “abuse”.

    “10.09.2017 – Eine Joggerin ist in Riedering (Landkreis Rosenheim) von einem Mann überfallen und vergewaltigt worden. Der Täter sei am Samstagmorgen”

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  199. TheJester says:
    @Forbes
    Very effective description/diagnosis of advancement in the corporate world. Men will seek out leaders to follow, to emulate, to learn from. And multiple leaders across varying time frames, even more than one at a time, since advancement is usually about being at the right place at the right time--something near impossible to anticipate, so knowing many leaders is superior to relying on one mentor.

    Women, in this concept of mentoring, mean hitching your wagon to one mentor, which could mean narrowing the field for future prospects. It would be impossible to know in advance that the mentor chosen turned out to be a dead end regarding promotions.

    Another damaging career tactic that women use is to try to finesse special “walk-in” privileges and other relationships with senior managers that jump the chain of command.

    I’ve seen numerous instances of women who bragged about or flaunted their special “walk-in” privileges with company presidents … privileges that no one else at their level had. The women, of course, saw this access as a career booster because it was evidence of their special relationships with the Alpha Males running the organizations. They expected these special relationships to “pay off” (NPI) when the time came for pay raises and promotions.

    However, this is more typically career suicide because it engenders resentment in the chain of command, especially with one’s co-workers and middle managers. It compromises the authority of the middle managers and leaves the impression among co-workers that the women are using female wiles to flout the rules of corporate fairness to get special treatment from senior management.

    Co-workers and middle managers at all levels “circle the wagons” against this perceived unfairness. Rather than rapid advancement, at the end of the day the women who use this relationship ploy are more likely to lose their jobs.

    Of course, the women look at these special relationships that failed them as one more piece of evidence that they live in a misogynistic, sexist world that stacks the deck against ambitious women.

    One more occasion for anger, disappointment, and hard-sought vindication.

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  200. @Thea
    The Boomer women were promised that work would be a personally fulfilling career. They passed this myth on down to the next two generations of women who believe it even more.

    They see the company as owing them something ( beyond a paycheck) that it never could have provided.

    The Boomer women were promised that work would be a personally fulfilling career.

    Right. And then they found out that these “personally fulfilling careers” were just ordinary boring jobs, like us guys have had forever. But it had to be someone elses fault.

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  201. @renault
    Most definitely.

    Dear
    renault:
    Thank you for your kind affirmation.
    I still have a sticker “Cornell University”
    at the rear view window of my “Toyota Camry 1994″.
    Your I.f.f.U.

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  202. @renault
    Most definitely.

    Dear
    renault:
    Thank you for your kind affirmation.
    I still have the sticker “Cornell University”
    at the rear view window of my “Toyota Camry 1994″.
    Your I.f.f.U.

    Read More
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  203. Art Deco says:
    @Achilles
    The hiring practices of white shoe New York City law firms had very little to do with religious discrimination against Jews. If one goes back and looks at the rosters of lawyers at these firms from the 1930s on, one can find the occasional Jew.

    But typically these were Jews from old-line, wealthy families who could trace their roots in the US to before the Civil War. They were highly civilized and well-mannered and connected to the banking elite.

    The narrative of anti-Jewish (can we please use the proper term instead of "anti-Semitic"?) bigotry mainly came from the new wave of Eastern European Jewish immigrants.

    And it wasn't religion that was the objection, it was behavior and culture. These law firms were in the business of serving the boardrooms of corporate America, and they wanted to hire lawyers who were well-mannered and polished and mixed well with their clients.

    Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn't make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart.

    Of course over the years everything changed, as Hollywood and the media have succeeded in coarsening the entire country. And there are now plenty of American Jews who have long shed the shtetl crudeness of their ancestors and are reasonably well-mannered and polished.

    The difficulty these firms have now is getting smart, well-bred white gentiles from areas other than the NYC region to come work at a white shoe New York firm. This is why such persons as do come are so often gay or lesbian and these firms are such strong supporters of LGBs and the LGB political agenda.

    Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn’t make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart.

    I was acquainted with a lawyer in Rochester, Wilmer Patlow by name, who was a pleasant issue of the Harvard Law School. And he was untouchable as far as established firms were concerned when he hit the job market in 1955. A friend got him a job as a peripheral employee of a firm for $40 a week ($280 a week in today’s currency) and he moonlighted at a vegetable market to make ends meet for several years. He wasn’t married until he was past 30. He did not get a satisfactory job until 1962, when his work carrying petitions landed him a patronage job in city government. He had some shortcomings which inhibited him from building a career (e.g. he was bored silly by small-time personal injury practice). His manners were not his problem. Jewish and Italian lawyers at that time worked solo or set up a small partnership with friends. Mario Cuomo, who had a bad temper but was a fairly reserved and bibliophilic man, also discovered at the time he completed law school in 1958 that established firms were uninterested in him, his fine academic record (1st in his class) notwithstanding.

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    I was acquainted with a building superintendent who was born in New York City into the wrong ethnic group about a century ago. He graduated from the City College of New York with an engineering degree back before the days of open admissions, when it was essentially a public Ivy. Confronted with the prospect of working a menial job, he decided to return to the old country to seek his fortune. As luck would have it, they were contesting a Japanese incursion, and needed someone who understood machinery to keep their relatively small stock of motor vehicles running. And it was in this manner that this Chinese American with his halting command of Cantonese, and none of the variants of Chinese dominant in the areas being fought over, became a colonel in charge of Chiang Kai-shek's truck and armored vehicle repair and maintenance. He had a sideline as a translator with American liaisons and trainers assigned to Chiang's units, which was awkward, given his limited Chinese proficiency, and often relied on improvised sign language and drawings.

    He made it off the mainland with his newly-acquired Chinese wife before the Communist victory and would probably have obtained a comfortable sinecure as a high official on Taiwan. His colleagues in the Nationalist Army certainly did. But fate was to intervene in the form of a wife who wanted to go to the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. So he boarded a ship bound for New York City with the missus, took up various odd jobs and even opened a Chinese restaurant for a while. His restaurant venture failed, and he was reduced to working as a building superintendent.

    He was slightly hard-of-hearing, but he had this treasure trove of stories about his experiences in China that he related in this Manhattan (not the hoity-toity affected movie variant spoken by British actors) accent. He passed away just short of the century mark.
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  204. Art Deco says:
    @anon
    She is too ugly and too too miserable because of her inability to attract and reproduce with one of her own kind. No Chinese man wants her. With Chinese women, the pretty ones find a rich husband and have an easy life while the ugly ones unable to attracted the opposite sex occupy their free time going to school and studying. You will find with Chinese women,the uglier the face more highly educated they are.

    ???

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  205. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    White shoe = elite WASP culture, specifically referring to law firms and investment banks. Simple as that. Since the elite WASPs cucked a long time ago, the term “white shoe firm” now means “really old and elite firm that used to be WASP.”

    I work at one of the firms that is sometimes referred to as a white shoe firm. There are Jews and racial minorities abound, just like at every other such firm these days. The old model of big law is gone. Many blame it on economics, but I think that gets it backwards. Once you become diverse, you lose your culture and feeling of closeness to your colleagues, and THEN it becomes all about the money. Sad.

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  206. @Autochthon
    I don’t follow your argument: you cite women who slept with wealthy men to obtain prominence for themselves as the reason why women who did not do so should not be listed among those who do.

    Do you know who David Goldberg was? Who Sergey Brin is?

    The Wojcicki sisters met Sergey Brin when proto-Google was still operating out of a garage. For the one that married him, that’s not called marrying for money, it’s just called picking a winner — a good, honest part of any smart girl’s skillset. Your wife surely wishes she had more of that.

    David Goldberg? Was he ever more rich or successful than Sheryl Sandberg?

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  207. @Triumph104
    Larry Summers, former US Treasury Secretary and President of Harvard University, was Sheryl Sandberg's mentor for decades. He placed her in key positions.


    How Sheryl Sandberg’s Mentor Helped Launch Her Career

    Sandberg met her mentor while studying economics at Harvard. She and a friend were setting up a new student organization, Women in Economics and Government, to encourage women to major in those subjects. Of all the professors they asked for help, Summers was the most supportive. ...

    The following year, Summers volunteered to be Sandberg’s thesis adviser, starting a relationship that would last for decades. ...

    Summers fully repaid that loyalty. In 1991, when he became the chief economist at the World Bank, he recruited Sandberg as a research assistant. Then, when he was named Treasury Secretary in the Clinton administration, it was his protégé whom he appointed as his Chief of Staff. From there, Sandberg joined Google, the role that helped catapult her to fame within the business world. ...

    Now that Sandberg is in a position of power, she’s taken the opportunity to both help her mentor and to pass the gift of mentoring on to others.

    First, Sandberg defended Summers against accusations of sexism in the aftermath of a controversial speech he gave on womens’ abilities in math and science subjects. She wrote that Summers “has been a true advocate for women throughout his career” and called him “a supportive and deeply caring mentor for me and many other women who had the opportunity to work for him.”

     

    https://www.geteverwise.com/mentoring/how-sheryl-sandbergs-mentor-helped-launch-her-career/

    None of which makes her an “adventuress”.

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  208. Brutusale says:
    @Jill
    The answer to this dilemma is to change your baby daughters to males. You can now start that age 3:

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    The international guidelines, just released by the Endocrine Society, are expected to dramatically alter medical care for transgender children around the globe.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages--444259043.html

    There’s a doctor at my girlfriend’s hospital early in on the whole trans thing, doing facial feminization surgery and hormone therapy back in the mid-80s. Fast forward 30 years, and the girlfriend has a tranny on her patient roster pretty much every day. Her quote was “And this is medicine?!”

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    • Replies: @res
    Any idea who is paying for those surgeries? Is it currently considered elective? (i.e. is it covered by insurance or not)
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  209. Brutusale says:
    @The Z Blog
    Ha. This is definitely a northeast term. You hear it with regards to law firms and financial houses, mostly. Maybe it used to mean WASP in the narrow sense, but today it means something closer to "deep state" or maybe ruling class.

    If you catch on at a white shoe firm out of law school, it means you have a chance to work with the ruling elite and possibly join them. White shoe firms always have offices in the power centers of the world and they take on the most important clients.

    I've never heard the term applied to VC shops. Even so, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers is a local yokel, in the view of New York money. They may as well be working from a double wide in the Ozarks.

    Maybe Mx. Pao is guilty of cultural appropriation here.

    Neal Stephenson, in my estimation a pretty sharp guy, used the term in reference to a SoCal law firm in his novel Cryptonomicon.

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  210. Brutusale says:
    @Erik L
    My Jewish dad wore white bucks in his youth. they were his favorite shoes and he gave me the impression that among teens of his generation they were the analog of sneakers or maybe docksiders to mine. I'm pretty sure they were worn year round but definitely casual.

    WRT Pao's whole idea that following the rules entitles you to the rewards...no. Necessary to a point but not sufficient

    Following the rules? Having an affair with a partner at your firm may be, to use a Steve term, a way for an adventuress to get into the club, but it isn’t following the rules.

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  211. res says:
    @Brutusale
    There's a doctor at my girlfriend's hospital early in on the whole trans thing, doing facial feminization surgery and hormone therapy back in the mid-80s. Fast forward 30 years, and the girlfriend has a tranny on her patient roster pretty much every day. Her quote was "And this is medicine?!"

    Any idea who is paying for those surgeries? Is it currently considered elective? (i.e. is it covered by insurance or not)

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  212. Hosswire says:
    @Jack D
    I think you have to divide Jewish attitudes toward discrimination into pre and post Holocaust. Before the war, Jews in America accepted that white Protestant power elite was racist and exclusionary - we lived in a racist and exclusionary society. That was just a fact of life and you dealt with it as best you could - formed your own law firms, country clubs, etc. Jews even began to take steps to forming their own universities, med schools, etc. It's not something that you enjoyed but you lived with it, as did Catholics, Italians, blacks, etc. You really had no choice.

    After WWII, it became clear to Jews that (even though this stuff happened over in Europe and not here) that racial discrimination was literally a matter of life and death. Being kept out of a certain hotel or club was not just mild social shunning but the first step on the slippery slope that ends in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. "You can't stay at this resort no longer meant "you can't stay at this resort" but "when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family". I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.

    Now my personal opinion is that American style mild racism had very little to do with the violent and genocidal European type of anti-Semitism (Americans are very pragmatic, Europeans have a tendency to get wrapped up in ideological purity and take things to their "logical" conclusion - see the American Revolution vs. the French Revolution) but I can see how after the war people could say that we are not putting up with this shit any more in any way shape or form.

    So Jews decided that the way to diminish hostility against them would be to push harder, to force themselves on their hosts more, kvetch louder & more forcibly impose their values on the larger nation?
    What an interesting choice.

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  213. @Jill
    The answer to this dilemma is to change your baby daughters to males. You can now start that age 3:

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    The international guidelines, just released by the Endocrine Society, are expected to dramatically alter medical care for transgender children around the globe.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages--444259043.html

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines

    Open child abuse.

    PC is like some sort of weird infectious disease. You get it and then you can no longer engage in any sort of rational thought. Here it has infected “medicine” so that “medicine” is doing anti-medicine, abusing children.

    The most obvious thing about any of this childhood sexual confusion stuff is … “let the kid go through puberty and it often will get sorted out”.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its an infection that turns people into zombies who only seek to spread their disease further. Death is infinitely preferable to zombiehood.
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  214. @AnotherDad

    Transgender Children Now Able to Physically Transform Bodies at Younger Ages Under New Medical Guidelines
     
    Open child abuse.

    PC is like some sort of weird infectious disease. You get it and then you can no longer engage in any sort of rational thought. Here it has infected "medicine" so that "medicine" is doing anti-medicine, abusing children.

    The most obvious thing about any of this childhood sexual confusion stuff is ... "let the kid go through puberty and it often will get sorted out".

    Its an infection that turns people into zombies who only seek to spread their disease further. Death is infinitely preferable to zombiehood.

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  215. @International Jew
    Thanx for jogging my memory. But if I understand Steve's use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.

    But we should add the chick that broke the Brin-Wojcicki home.

    But if I understand Steve’s use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.

    Anne Wojcicki would definitely seem to be on the list. She is a much more technically qualified person for her role than her sister, but she was sleeping with Brin when she started 23 and Me and married to him when Google downloaded a huge packet of cash to get them up and running, competitive and make it a successful venture. She owes career success to sleeping with Brin.

    Agree on Sanberg. Not fan at all. But basically she seems to be a smart Jewish girl, who has managed to serially impress a number of Jewish men who have given her a leg up, giving her a much faster career trajectory. But, while one’s sex definitely has an affect on relationships, as far as we know she wasn’t wagging her tushy at any of these guys to get ahead.

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    • Replies: @International Jew
    The Wojcicki sisters met Brin when Google's headquarters were in a garage. If he became a decabillionaire later, that's no knock against his girlfriend/wife. I wouldn't mind if my daughter married a future super-successful guy and I don't think you would either.

    Ellen Pao: now that's who I wouldn't want my daughter to be.

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  216. budnot says:

    I had pair of white bucks in high school in the late 50s, but they were required as part of the band uniform. I don’t think I ever wore them anywhere else. I guess I could have infiltrated above my class, but no one in my western PA mill town knew the code. :-P ( Yes, I was a band geek and a second class jock[track]. )

    I turned down the Princeton scholarship because it didn’t include the living expenses I couldn’t afford and majored in engineering at a school that the scholarship covered enough that I could. Don’t regret it.

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  217. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    When were you there? Casual Friday didn't get going in NY until the early '90s. Before that you wore the same suit on Friday as you did Mon-Thurs. The only time you didn't have to wear a suit was when you came in on the weekend. Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the '60s, then spread to California in the '80s and didn't hit NY until the '90s.

    McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms.

    “When were you there? Casual Friday didn’t get going in NY until the early ’90s”

    Yes, around that time. I recall reading an article in the FT about “this new casual Fridays” thing, and memos trying to hash out what was OK.

    “McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms.”

    Yes, but the Mad Men world had no Jewish firms, no Jews at all; in one of the first eps, Draper boasts about no Jews being hired “on my watch” and they get a guy from the print shop to pretend to be an exec to impress a Jewish client (a department store — that was where Proskauer got its start, representing Bloomingdales; white shoe firms didn’t want dirty Jewish money); later they hire a squirrelly Jewish guy and he eventually goes nuts. Then, they try to pass off the Jewish takeover of Mad Ave by having an Irish firm (McCann) take over Sterling Cooper. Throughout, the Jew is always a plucky underdog and outsider.

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    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    Sterling Cooper, of course, was completely untouched by Jews (until Michael Ginsberg), but it's not quite right to say that "the Mad Men world had no Jewish firms..." There are a few mentions of Grey Advertising, which did have the reputation as a Jewish firm. As early as Season 2, Don meets up, by chance, with Rachel Menken -- she of the Jewish department store that needed some marketing help from Sterling Cooper in Season 1 -- who, it turns out, is newly-married to a distinctly Jewish-looking gentleman named Tilden (or Holden?) Katz, identified as being with "Grey."

    A minute of internet research shows that Grey Advertising's founder was one Larry Valenstein, who hired an office boy who later became his business partner at Grey, Arthur Fatt. Pretty sure Grey would have been the ad agency equivalent of Rosenman, Proskauer, Weil Gotshal and other Jewish law firms formed to service the business (and businessmen) that firms like Cravath, Sullivan & Cromwell, Shearman & Sterling or Davis Polk wouldn't.
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  218. budnot says:
    @Autochthon
    There is an old chestnut in Big Law about this stuff:

    A white-shoe firm (say, Cravath) has a senior associate (wearing black shoes) seen putting a pair of brown Oxfords in the cloakroom, when an elderly partner sees him and inquires with dismay, "Brown shoes in Town, Mr. Smith?" The reply is "I'm bringing them to be resoled, Mr. Johnson." But the partner only walks way, muttering "Brown shoes in town! Hmmph! Brown shoes in town!"

    The anecdote always ends with an epilogue that the associate in question never makes partner despite his excellent performance and book of business.

    It works the other way, if course: I wear shorts and T-shirts to work most days now, I make heaps more money than I did when I had to wear suits each day (and waste some if it on dry cleaning). And I can attest if anyone comes to an interview for most technology-focused outfits in a suit, they are going to arch and eyebrow and, quite possibly, forfeit the job.

    When in Rome....

    Thank David Packard and Bill Hewlett for your sartorial freedom. They allowed their tech people to wear anything they wanted to work (which turned out to be shorts, sneakers and t-shirts) which sucked away talent from other bay area tech firms who still insisted on ties and plain shirts, and, despite this affront to commom decency, HP was making money hand over fist.

    One day, in about ’78, I simply stopped wearing the rag around my neck that had been de riguer for the previous decade+ of my career, and nobody said anything. Within a year, the only guys in the engineering building wearing a tie were managers.

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  219. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    “So true. I worked for a white shoe firm, not so high flying as Cravath but very old school. They had free pastries Monday and Fri served on silver platters in the conference room.

    I worked at Hughes Hubbard in the old 1 Wall St. location in late 80s (moved to Battery Park right before 9/11, doh!) and they had cocktail parties in the library on Friday aft. Unthinkable now, esp. with the rickety old spiral staircase connecting the two library floors — litigation!

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  220. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Buzz Mohawk
    Gay guys (and some straight ones) at my college in the early 80s all read The Official Preppy Handbook and went out and bought white bucks. They didn’t care that the book was a satire. To them it was a guide.

    What made this especially pathetic is that it was Colorado, where a white buck sounds like something you shoot and eat.

    http://self-help-ebook.net/uploads/images/the-official-preppy-handbook-lisa-birnbach_1.jpg

    I think it was Paul Fussell in his book Class who said the aping of the mid-upper class (i.e, prep, Ralph Lauren, etc.) was the fantasy that you could just buy the right stuff and BE mid-upper; real upper (today’s 1%) was a little harder…

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Paul Fussell sold himself the fantasy that making a career as a literary critic in the soft post-war academic job market demonstrated that you could make an ace observational social critic. The one thing Class demonstrated was that its author was a class A jack-wagon.
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  221. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Forbes
    I once saw Handbook editor Lisa Birnbach give a "talk" on a college book tour shortly after it was published. Absolutely, rolling on the floor hilarious. Of course, one must also remember the disastrous fashions of the '70s with bell bottom pants and pastel-colored polyester leisure suits. After that, the "preppy" look was positively sane.

    “Sane”

    Got my first adult, office job at the time and found it invaluable for finding a decent, adult but unobtrusive wardrobe — Brooks Bros was in the same building, how convenient! I didn’t have Steve’s intern to shop for me at Brooks. Secret: not only does the look not change, the stuff lasts forever — I still have my first Brooks jacket and tie. Not sure about white bucks, though.

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  222. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Achilles
    The hiring practices of white shoe New York City law firms had very little to do with religious discrimination against Jews. If one goes back and looks at the rosters of lawyers at these firms from the 1930s on, one can find the occasional Jew.

    But typically these were Jews from old-line, wealthy families who could trace their roots in the US to before the Civil War. They were highly civilized and well-mannered and connected to the banking elite.

    The narrative of anti-Jewish (can we please use the proper term instead of "anti-Semitic"?) bigotry mainly came from the new wave of Eastern European Jewish immigrants.

    And it wasn't religion that was the objection, it was behavior and culture. These law firms were in the business of serving the boardrooms of corporate America, and they wanted to hire lawyers who were well-mannered and polished and mixed well with their clients.

    Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn't make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart.

    Of course over the years everything changed, as Hollywood and the media have succeeded in coarsening the entire country. And there are now plenty of American Jews who have long shed the shtetl crudeness of their ancestors and are reasonably well-mannered and polished.

    The difficulty these firms have now is getting smart, well-bred white gentiles from areas other than the NYC region to come work at a white shoe New York firm. This is why such persons as do come are so often gay or lesbian and these firms are such strong supporters of LGBs and the LGB political agenda.

    “Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn’t make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart”

    That was Ginsberg [sp?] on later seasons of Mad Men, the token Jew — born in Auschwitz no less! They put him next to the IBM mainframe and the noise made his go nuts.

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  223. @AnotherDad

    But if I understand Steve’s use of the term, an adventuress has to get to where she is by sleeping with the right men or at least trying to. So the Wojcicki sisters and Sheryl Sandberg (if not others too) need to come off your list.
     
    Anne Wojcicki would definitely seem to be on the list. She is a much more technically qualified person for her role than her sister, but she was sleeping with Brin when she started 23 and Me and married to him when Google downloaded a huge packet of cash to get them up and running, competitive and make it a successful venture. She owes career success to sleeping with Brin.

    Agree on Sanberg. Not fan at all. But basically she seems to be a smart Jewish girl, who has managed to serially impress a number of Jewish men who have given her a leg up, giving her a much faster career trajectory. But, while one's sex definitely has an affect on relationships, as far as we know she wasn't wagging her tushy at any of these guys to get ahead.

    The Wojcicki sisters met Brin when Google’s headquarters were in a garage. If he became a decabillionaire later, that’s no knock against his girlfriend/wife. I wouldn’t mind if my daughter married a future super-successful guy and I don’t think you would either.

    Ellen Pao: now that’s who I wouldn’t want my daughter to be.

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    • Replies: @dwb
    Could not agree more.

    The current head of 23 and me (and ex-wife of Sergei Brin) would be unlikely to be living the life she has now without having married him. But your point here (and earlier) is correct: She is not an adventuress in the same sense that Ellen Pao is.

    As you say, she married him before he was a billionaire; I suspect she saw something that indicated he would be a success, but then, that is betting the "Come" at the craps table. She bet on a winner.

    Pao and those like her want to come to the table, wait until the dice are thrown, place their bets, and collect the payout.

    Two totally different things.

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  224. @AnotherDad

    Every Catholic boy who’s made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.
     
    I don't know what counts as "traditional" but I sure didn't wear white shoes for my First Holy Communion. The *girls* were in their white dresses and i'd guess white shoes. (I'm not gay enough to pay much attention to female footware--just not where my eyes aim when looking at girls.) But we boys were all in our normal Sunday suits with normal black or brown dress shoes. (Reminder to me--should get my dads' slides digitized. But I've seen the pic.)

    Now I can't claim to be any sort of canonical Catholic. But this was 50+ in the Midwest, in a middle-to-upper-middle class (skilled tradesmen, contractors, GE engineers, middle managers) parish. Not ritzy but a bit better off than typical Catholic parish in the 60s. We wouldn't have been skimping if there was some real tradition to uphold.

    Generally girls get fancy clothes for special one-off occasions. Guys just dress nicely. This is one of those nice little sex differences in life that is reasonable (girls care more) and pleasant.

    If there's been some sort of change and Catholic boys are now having to dress up in white suits and shoes then the gays really have taken charge of the joint.

    Indeed. We wore regular black or brown shoes. I never heard of a boy in white shoes!

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  225. Thirdeye says:
    @Forbes
    And she slept with a married partner, as if that would reflect "good judgment" in the eyes of the other partners, rather than the dangerous and unwarranted risk-taker that it does indicate.

    Awww, c’mon! Risk taking is what that business is all about!

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  226. Art Deco says:

    One gets the impression that Unz is a collecting pool of people who had a supervisor named Hy Goldberg who told them their work stank on ice.

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    • Disagree: Dan Hayes
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  227. Art Deco says:
    @Anon
    I think it was Paul Fussell in his book Class who said the aping of the mid-upper class (i.e, prep, Ralph Lauren, etc.) was the fantasy that you could just buy the right stuff and BE mid-upper; real upper (today's 1%) was a little harder...

    Paul Fussell sold himself the fantasy that making a career as a literary critic in the soft post-war academic job market demonstrated that you could make an ace observational social critic. The one thing Class demonstrated was that its author was a class A jack-wagon.

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    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Art Deco:


    Regarding Mario Cuomo.

    Maybe the established law firms immediately saw in him what took New York voters four gubernatorial elections.
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  228. Brutusale says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Pat Boone in the '50's also helped to popularize white bucks among the proles. Generally speaking, white bucks = dork. Too white bread, vanilla, low T, and beta. Pure beta with no chance for advancement to Alpha manhood. Remember back in the day when some PGAers wore them? (or rather wore white bucked cleats)? Just dorky. Absolutely dork. I ask anyone here: Can you imagine Donald J. Trump wearing white bucks with his Brioni suits? That would be a YUGE mistake.

    White Bucks? Think Bert, from Sesame Street of "Ernie and Bert" fame. King of dorkiness and the antithesis of GQ. That and the polyester leisure suits with disco. Whites truly reached a nadir in taste and style, which helped drag down popular culture even further. [Looking in your direction, Baby Boomers.]

    Perhaps if this Asian adventuress weren't Asian and looked more along the lines of say, Paris Hilton, this would have been a story with legs.

    Wonder what Paris Hilton is up to these days? And you can bet she wouldn't be caught dead with someone wearing dorky white bucks either. If there was one woman who symbolized Gen Xer adventuress, it would have to be Paris Hilton. Paris was truly poised to become the epitome of the 21st century's ideal of the post-modern adventuress. Suelte, sassy, street smarts, always with a bit of bored "Oh, please" attitude about her and above all else, an inner ability to market herself. Just petered out. Not exactly sure why.

    At least she had good taste in shoes.

    Back in the late 80s I was at a spring training night game between the Yankee$ and the White Sox at the old Al Smith Stadium in Sarasota. I met George Steinbrenner, nobody’s idea of anything but alpha, wearing his spring casual attire: blue blazer, green slacks, yellow polo and white shoes.

    He was also as nice a guy as you’d ever meet.

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  229. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    When were you there? Casual Friday didn't get going in NY until the early '90s. Before that you wore the same suit on Friday as you did Mon-Thurs. The only time you didn't have to wear a suit was when you came in on the weekend. Casual Friday started in Hawaii in the '60s, then spread to California in the '80s and didn't hit NY until the '90s.

    McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms.

    My father worked at ADP in the 70′s, where they introduced casual attire because of Carter’s restrictions(?) on AC use.

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  230. dwb says:
    @International Jew
    The Wojcicki sisters met Brin when Google's headquarters were in a garage. If he became a decabillionaire later, that's no knock against his girlfriend/wife. I wouldn't mind if my daughter married a future super-successful guy and I don't think you would either.

    Ellen Pao: now that's who I wouldn't want my daughter to be.

    Could not agree more.

    The current head of 23 and me (and ex-wife of Sergei Brin) would be unlikely to be living the life she has now without having married him. But your point here (and earlier) is correct: She is not an adventuress in the same sense that Ellen Pao is.

    As you say, she married him before he was a billionaire; I suspect she saw something that indicated he would be a success, but then, that is betting the “Come” at the craps table. She bet on a winner.

    Pao and those like her want to come to the table, wait until the dice are thrown, place their bets, and collect the payout.

    Two totally different things.

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  231. @Steve Sailer
    Larry Summers is portrayed in the movie "The Social Network" dismissing the Vinkelwoss (?) twins complaints against Mark Zuckerberg.

    So maybe there is more here than meets the eye?

    Well, that is the final piece of the Sheryl Sandberg career trajectory puzzle. I was not aware of the Summers-Zuckerberg connection.

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  232. @Coemgen
    Maybe the reference to "white shoes" is an anti-Catholic dog-whistle. Every Catholic boy who's made his traditional First Communion has worn white shoes.

    White-Shoe is code for Wall Street WASP. I used to work with an old partner who, in the summer season, would come to the office in a Seersucker Suit, white shoes, and a straw hat. He was probably old enough to have been a young buck in the business in the crash of 1929.

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  233. Flip says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    Gay guys (and some straight ones) at my college in the early 80s all read The Official Preppy Handbook and went out and bought white bucks. They didn’t care that the book was a satire. To them it was a guide.

    What made this especially pathetic is that it was Colorado, where a white buck sounds like something you shoot and eat.

    http://self-help-ebook.net/uploads/images/the-official-preppy-handbook-lisa-birnbach_1.jpg

    That book was satire? *confused look* It seemed pretty accurate to my preppy, Ivy League self.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
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  234. @anon
    White golf shoes are totally different, For a period of years, white Foot Joy wingtips were a default shoe choice. I don't know why they were so popular, but everyone wore them.

    One aspect of Waspish culture was a noticeable distinction between business and social attire. This has broken down with the rise of business casual. But there was a fairly lax rule that business and social were distinct and at, for example, a country club, a sports coat (usually with tie) and slacks were not frequently styled so they could not be worn at business. The blue blazer was the exception that proved the rule.

    Pat Boone was 'cultural appropriation' and were more of a fad than anything else. The Preppy Handbook was also a fad, although much bigger. Ralph Lauren is 100% appropriation of former upper class styles -- pretty much after it was gone.

    No one ever wore white bucks with a business suit.

    Ralph Lauren is 100% appropriation of former upper class styles — pretty much after it was gone.

    Yeah, I’m amazed this is a thing. People want to play dress-ups like this?

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  235. Dan Hayes says:
    @Art Deco
    Paul Fussell sold himself the fantasy that making a career as a literary critic in the soft post-war academic job market demonstrated that you could make an ace observational social critic. The one thing Class demonstrated was that its author was a class A jack-wagon.

    Art Deco:

    Regarding Mario Cuomo.

    Maybe the established law firms immediately saw in him what took New York voters four gubernatorial elections.

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  236. @PiltdownMan
    The guy who acted as Summers, Douglas Urbanski, did a great job.

    https://youtu.be/Y3JtmZugzl4

    Indeed.

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  237. @Art Deco
    Hiring someone like a crude second-generation wise-cracking Polish Jewish law school graduate who could barely disguise his hatred and contempt for upper-class white gentiles didn’t make a lot of sense in terms of servicing the client base, even if that person was very smart.

    I was acquainted with a lawyer in Rochester, Wilmer Patlow by name, who was a pleasant issue of the Harvard Law School. And he was untouchable as far as established firms were concerned when he hit the job market in 1955. A friend got him a job as a peripheral employee of a firm for $40 a week ($280 a week in today's currency) and he moonlighted at a vegetable market to make ends meet for several years. He wasn't married until he was past 30. He did not get a satisfactory job until 1962, when his work carrying petitions landed him a patronage job in city government. He had some shortcomings which inhibited him from building a career (e.g. he was bored silly by small-time personal injury practice). His manners were not his problem. Jewish and Italian lawyers at that time worked solo or set up a small partnership with friends. Mario Cuomo, who had a bad temper but was a fairly reserved and bibliophilic man, also discovered at the time he completed law school in 1958 that established firms were uninterested in him, his fine academic record (1st in his class) notwithstanding.

    I was acquainted with a building superintendent who was born in New York City into the wrong ethnic group about a century ago. He graduated from the City College of New York with an engineering degree back before the days of open admissions, when it was essentially a public Ivy. Confronted with the prospect of working a menial job, he decided to return to the old country to seek his fortune. As luck would have it, they were contesting a Japanese incursion, and needed someone who understood machinery to keep their relatively small stock of motor vehicles running. And it was in this manner that this Chinese American with his halting command of Cantonese, and none of the variants of Chinese dominant in the areas being fought over, became a colonel in charge of Chiang Kai-shek’s truck and armored vehicle repair and maintenance. He had a sideline as a translator with American liaisons and trainers assigned to Chiang’s units, which was awkward, given his limited Chinese proficiency, and often relied on improvised sign language and drawings.

    He made it off the mainland with his newly-acquired Chinese wife before the Communist victory and would probably have obtained a comfortable sinecure as a high official on Taiwan. His colleagues in the Nationalist Army certainly did. But fate was to intervene in the form of a wife who wanted to go to the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. So he boarded a ship bound for New York City with the missus, took up various odd jobs and even opened a Chinese restaurant for a while. His restaurant venture failed, and he was reduced to working as a building superintendent.

    He was slightly hard-of-hearing, but he had this treasure trove of stories about his experiences in China that he related in this Manhattan (not the hoity-toity affected movie variant spoken by British actors) accent. He passed away just short of the century mark.

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  238. anonguy says:
    @JimB
    Only nurses, cafeteria workers, and Tom Wolfe wear white shoes.

    Only nurses, cafeteria workers, and Tom Wolfe wear white shoes.

    And naval officers.

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  239. Jack D says:
    @AM

    I know it sounds melodramatic, but this is what people felt and still feel, whether it is right to feel that way or not. As such, it could no longer be tolerated in any form. “You can’t stay at this resort no longer meant “you can’t stay at this resort” but “when I get the chance I will murder you and all of your friends and family”. I guess near extinction events make you a little bit brittle and unwilling to take chances on such things.
     
    I tend to agree with peterike. This is not a normal reaction to such events. It's a neurosis brought on by being swirled into our current society that shuns any sort of faith. Which brings me back to the idea that modern secular Jews over react because they are not resilient.

    There's no faith in God, no hope, just the idea they somehow must control everyone's thoughts (impossible) and "remember the Holocaust" if they are to survive. Interestingly they don't seem to all that much into survival if birth and marriage rates are any indication. What we're getting is brittle, semi-attached social climbers with little investment in anyone's future, not even their own.

    Also, the Jews actually didn't go near extinct. (And interestingly there's no neurosis about the loss of ancient Jewish communities around the Middle East that have occurred post WWII.)

    Anyway, yes, millions died but so did millions of Europeans in death camp and in battle. There were actually all sort of Jews able to immigrate to Israel after the war. In 1948, it was over 1/2 million. By 1951, immigration had doubled that number. The diaspora really was and is a diaspora. Lots of Jews were living in the US at the time, as well as places like India and the ME as I mentioned. Jews even arrived from Poland, which may better explain that lack of a modern Jewish community there. (Link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/introduction-and-historical-overview)

    Approximately 90% of Polish Jews were murdered. My parents survived but imagine that out of your elementary school class of 30, 27 were dead and only you and 2 others were not murdered. Imagine out of your town of 600, 540 are murdered including your parents and some of your siblings and only you and 59 others were left. Imagine that 9 out of 10 of your friends and neighbors are dead, murdered. This was my parents reality. They remained sane but honestly I don’t know how.

    That being said, that was their experience and not the experience of the American Jewish community let alone those born 2 generations after the war. But this really happened and it was horrid and I don’t know why you keep minimizing it as if it was no big deal. Trust me, it was a really big deal.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Yes, it was a big deal. WWII was a really big deal for a lot of people, Jews more than most.

    That doesn't justify the craziness of the reaction, especially the misdirected craziness that targets the people who have historically been most kind to Jews and supports atheist revolutionaries like those who actually went around killing them.

    It's a psychotic break, even if partly an understandable psychotic break.

    , @Anon 2
    Poland was where most of the Jews lived. Western Europe
    "solved" its Jewish problem by expelling their Jews, sometimes
    repeatedly, so by 1550 80% of the world's Jews lived in Poland
    (strictly speaking, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth). In the
    1930s the vast majority of Europe's Jews still lived in
    Poland, about 3.5 million - about 10% of the population,
    highest percentage in the world. In percentage terms, very
    few Jews lived in Germany so the Germans had to come
    to Poland to get the Jews.

    The Germans killed roughly 3 million Polish Christians and
    3 million Polish Jews, altogether 20% of the population.
    But realistically speaking that's what happens during wars
    - wars happen, people die. Normal state of affairs. Christians
    have the advantage of forgiveness that's built into the Christian
    theology. You learn from what happened, you forgive, you try
    not to do it again, and you move on. Case closed.
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  240. @Cagey Beast
    I'm looking forward to someone here arguing that the wearing of white shoes is genetically encoded into Anglo-Saxon DNA but the tyrannical Normans forbade them. That's why the Anglo-Saxons had to flee the Old World and listen to the call of blood, the siren song to wear white shoes and pink (so-called "Nantucket red") trousers.

    Anthony Weiner knows how to wear a pair of Nantucket reds. Does that make him a WASP? No. Jerry Lee Lewis wore white shoes. Did that make him a WASP? I say "no" but the DNA gang would say "yes".

    If m’lord Beast would care to reflect for a moment .. he would doubtless recall a Better Age, when all cricketing clobber was white. Including the boots/shoes.

    https://hornetshire.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/hornets-for-vintage-cricket-boots/

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  241. @Jack D

    a vengeful plot by the white-shoe boys of the securities business, all those nice Harvard graduates in loafers
     
    The Brit who wrote this must have been confused about American footwear styles because a white buck is an Oxford (a lace up shoe), not a loafer, which is laceless. He shouldn't have been since both are derived from British shoe styles. Bucks, with their rubber soles, were the original tennis shoes and so associated with this upper class pursuit. White to fit as part of the all white tennis outfit.

    It would be (or rather, was .. sigh) most imprudent to be seen in anything other than black Oxfords while at the London office. Even Derby cut shoes were risky. Anything brown and it’d be catty remarks in the vein of ” .. oh, orf to the country, are we?” White, and one would be suspected of being an escaped schoolboy who’d done a bunk during games.

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    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    And don't get me started on the bloody socks, Jack.
    ".. the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder)."
    Solid and dark, even burgundy probably meant you were a shirtlifter, and the most daring thing was to have a "clock" stripe (on a black/navy body) approximately aligned with each trouser seam (not crease). Best to have suspenders for the blasted things too.
    Count myself lucky. The missus' dad wore a bowler (I suppose what you lot call a "Derby hat") and carried a furled, cane-handled black brolly at all times during trading hours.. And not because he wanted to.
    Mind you, he voluntarily wore gloves and a flat tweed cap while driving, so I have no sympathy for the old boy. And yes, he smoked a pipe while roaring along in the Rover, with the windows firmly closed against the rain. Alfred Dunhill's "Baby's Bottom" mixture, I vaguely recall.
    There's "secondary smoking", and then there's .. secondary smoking.
    , @Opinionator
    What was the rest of the attire?
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  242. @Expletive Deleted
    It would be (or rather, was .. sigh) most imprudent to be seen in anything other than black Oxfords while at the London office. Even Derby cut shoes were risky. Anything brown and it'd be catty remarks in the vein of " .. oh, orf to the country, are we?" White, and one would be suspected of being an escaped schoolboy who'd done a bunk during games.

    And don’t get me started on the bloody socks, Jack.
    “.. the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder).”
    Solid and dark, even burgundy probably meant you were a shirtlifter, and the most daring thing was to have a “clock” stripe (on a black/navy body) approximately aligned with each trouser seam (not crease). Best to have suspenders for the blasted things too.
    Count myself lucky. The missus’ dad wore a bowler (I suppose what you lot call a “Derby hat”) and carried a furled, cane-handled black brolly at all times during trading hours.. And not because he wanted to.
    Mind you, he voluntarily wore gloves and a flat tweed cap while driving, so I have no sympathy for the old boy. And yes, he smoked a pipe while roaring along in the Rover, with the windows firmly closed against the rain. Alfred Dunhill’s “Baby’s Bottom” mixture, I vaguely recall.
    There’s “secondary smoking”, and then there’s .. secondary smoking.

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    • Replies: @Amanuensis
    Merciful God. This sounds worse than a bunch of teenage girls brutalizing some hapless no-hoper.
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  243. @Expletive Deleted
    And don't get me started on the bloody socks, Jack.
    ".. the kind of person who might wear those black shoes with white socks (shudder)."
    Solid and dark, even burgundy probably meant you were a shirtlifter, and the most daring thing was to have a "clock" stripe (on a black/navy body) approximately aligned with each trouser seam (not crease). Best to have suspenders for the blasted things too.
    Count myself lucky. The missus' dad wore a bowler (I suppose what you lot call a "Derby hat") and carried a furled, cane-handled black brolly at all times during trading hours.. And not because he wanted to.
    Mind you, he voluntarily wore gloves and a flat tweed cap while driving, so I have no sympathy for the old boy. And yes, he smoked a pipe while roaring along in the Rover, with the windows firmly closed against the rain. Alfred Dunhill's "Baby's Bottom" mixture, I vaguely recall.
    There's "secondary smoking", and then there's .. secondary smoking.

    Merciful God. This sounds worse than a bunch of teenage girls brutalizing some hapless no-hoper.

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  244. Presumably, partners at white-shoe firms never wear white shoes to work, which is one reason the term is confusing.

    That’s similar to using “white bread” for the only people who avoid the stuff.

    Are Land’s End all-weather mocs the modern counterpart?

    The problem with Ms. Pao’s latest media tour promoting her book is that of all the Silicon Valley adventuresses in the news in recent years, she’s the most boring.

    She should change her name to “Kung” and associate herself with the chicken dish.

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  245. Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Can you imagine the type of people taken in by this propaganda?
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  246. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Approximately 90% of Polish Jews were murdered. My parents survived but imagine that out of your elementary school class of 30, 27 were dead and only you and 2 others were not murdered. Imagine out of your town of 600, 540 are murdered including your parents and some of your siblings and only you and 59 others were left. Imagine that 9 out of 10 of your friends and neighbors are dead, murdered. This was my parents reality. They remained sane but honestly I don't know how.

    That being said, that was their experience and not the experience of the American Jewish community let alone those born 2 generations after the war. But this really happened and it was horrid and I don't know why you keep minimizing it as if it was no big deal. Trust me, it was a really big deal.

    Yes, it was a big deal. WWII was a really big deal for a lot of people, Jews more than most.

    That doesn’t justify the craziness of the reaction, especially the misdirected craziness that targets the people who have historically been most kind to Jews and supports atheist revolutionaries like those who actually went around killing them.

    It’s a psychotic break, even if partly an understandable psychotic break.

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  247. @Reg Cæsar
    OT, but I suspect ulterior motives here:

    https://www.indy100.com/article/worst-decision-you-can-ever-make-have-a-child-science-research-parent-sleep-sex-money-video-7960906

    Can you imagine the type of people taken in by this propaganda?

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  248. @Anon
    "When were you there? Casual Friday didn’t get going in NY until the early ’90s"

    Yes, around that time. I recall reading an article in the FT about "this new casual Fridays" thing, and memos trying to hash out what was OK.

    "McCann really was an Irish (Catholic) firm. As in the NY law world, the old ad world was divided into WASP, Catholic and Jewish firms."

    Yes, but the Mad Men world had no Jewish firms, no Jews at all; in one of the first eps, Draper boasts about no Jews being hired "on my watch" and they get a guy from the print shop to pretend to be an exec to impress a Jewish client (a department store -- that was where Proskauer got its start, representing Bloomingdales; white shoe firms didn't want dirty Jewish money); later they hire a squirrelly Jewish guy and he eventually goes nuts. Then, they try to pass off the Jewish takeover of Mad Ave by having an Irish firm (McCann) take over Sterling Cooper. Throughout, the Jew is always a plucky underdog and outsider.

    Sterling Cooper, of course, was completely untouched by Jews (until Michael Ginsberg), but it’s not quite right to say that “the Mad Men world had no Jewish firms…” There are a few mentions of Grey Advertising, which did have the reputation as a Jewish firm. As early as Season 2, Don meets up, by chance, with Rachel Menken — she of the Jewish department store that needed some marketing help from Sterling Cooper in Season 1 — who, it turns out, is newly-married to a distinctly Jewish-looking gentleman named Tilden (or Holden?) Katz, identified as being with “Grey.”

    A minute of internet research shows that Grey Advertising’s founder was one Larry Valenstein, who hired an office boy who later became his business partner at Grey, Arthur Fatt. Pretty sure Grey would have been the ad agency equivalent of Rosenman, Proskauer, Weil Gotshal and other Jewish law firms formed to service the business (and businessmen) that firms like Cravath, Sullivan & Cromwell, Shearman & Sterling or Davis Polk wouldn’t.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Advertising was not as rigidly segregated as law and banking. There were Jews (Albert Lasker) at non-Jewish firms and vice versa.
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  249. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    Are you from Rochester too? And you're an academic librarian?

    I think I might actually know you IRL.

    Mr. Sailer: I think you probably ought to delete this comment of mine, I wasn’t thinking when I wrote it. Please accept my apologies.

    If you do decide to print it I request AD not to answer.

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  250. @Jack D
    No, not at all. The P in WASP stands for Protestant. Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews.

    ” Catholics were excluded from the white-shoe world almost as much as Jews”

    In fifties Metro-Detroit white shoes, we called them “White Bucks” were a geographical phenomena : They were the “in” thing in Rosedale Park, Palmer Park ( A Hebrew enclave in Detroit), Bloomfield Hills ( Hebrew area) , Boston Edison, with it’s marvelous mansions, Gross Pointe, Gross Isle, Dearborn before the middle easter conversion, and many a Catholic called these zones home.

    The other areas tended towards “Greaser” stylings : Duck-tail pompadours, Peg pants, pointed shoes, Mr B shirts. I was somewhere in between, as my best buddy, his dad a Ford board of directors member, resided in Rosedale

    My buddy was attending, end fifties, Michigan State, studying psychology, and I visited him in uniform, while on leave from the Army. He read me the riot act, about being on campus in Army khakis, which was, in tune with already marxist alignment of this institution, a huge tabu, as apparently some of his campus friends had complained about my “Reactionary” apparition.
    He ended up being a counselor with the Wayne County Prison system, and told me decades later that trying to get through to the thugs in the Detroit jails was a hopeless endeavor, that they were lost to mankind.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.

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  251. Jack D says:
    @Gary in Gramercy
    Sterling Cooper, of course, was completely untouched by Jews (until Michael Ginsberg), but it's not quite right to say that "the Mad Men world had no Jewish firms..." There are a few mentions of Grey Advertising, which did have the reputation as a Jewish firm. As early as Season 2, Don meets up, by chance, with Rachel Menken -- she of the Jewish department store that needed some marketing help from Sterling Cooper in Season 1 -- who, it turns out, is newly-married to a distinctly Jewish-looking gentleman named Tilden (or Holden?) Katz, identified as being with "Grey."

    A minute of internet research shows that Grey Advertising's founder was one Larry Valenstein, who hired an office boy who later became his business partner at Grey, Arthur Fatt. Pretty sure Grey would have been the ad agency equivalent of Rosenman, Proskauer, Weil Gotshal and other Jewish law firms formed to service the business (and businessmen) that firms like Cravath, Sullivan & Cromwell, Shearman & Sterling or Davis Polk wouldn't.

    Advertising was not as rigidly segregated as law and banking. There were Jews (Albert Lasker) at non-Jewish firms and vice versa.

    Read More
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  252. Anon 2 says:
    @Jack D
    Approximately 90% of Polish Jews were murdered. My parents survived but imagine that out of your elementary school class of 30, 27 were dead and only you and 2 others were not murdered. Imagine out of your town of 600, 540 are murdered including your parents and some of your siblings and only you and 59 others were left. Imagine that 9 out of 10 of your friends and neighbors are dead, murdered. This was my parents reality. They remained sane but honestly I don't know how.

    That being said, that was their experience and not the experience of the American Jewish community let alone those born 2 generations after the war. But this really happened and it was horrid and I don't know why you keep minimizing it as if it was no big deal. Trust me, it was a really big deal.

    Poland was where most of the Jews lived. Western Europe
    “solved” its Jewish problem by expelling their Jews, sometimes
    repeatedly, so by 1550 80% of the world’s Jews lived in Poland
    (strictly speaking, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth). In the
    1930s the vast majority of Europe’s Jews still lived in
    Poland, about 3.5 million – about 10% of the population,
    highest percentage in the world. In percentage terms, very
    few Jews lived in Germany so the Germans had to come
    to Poland to get the Jews.

    The Germans killed roughly 3 million Polish Christians and
    3 million Polish Jews, altogether 20% of the population.
    But realistically speaking that’s what happens during wars
    - wars happen, people die. Normal state of affairs. Christians
    have the advantage of forgiveness that’s built into the Christian
    theology. You learn from what happened, you forgive, you try
    not to do it again, and you move on. Case closed.

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  253. @Expletive Deleted
    It would be (or rather, was .. sigh) most imprudent to be seen in anything other than black Oxfords while at the London office. Even Derby cut shoes were risky. Anything brown and it'd be catty remarks in the vein of " .. oh, orf to the country, are we?" White, and one would be suspected of being an escaped schoolboy who'd done a bunk during games.

    What was the rest of the attire?

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  254. Trelane says:

    Cheap Trick’s cigarette-smoking drummer Bun E. Carlos wearing white shoes in 1979 at 0:58.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I met Bun E. Carlos in 1978 or 1979.
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  255. @Trelane
    Cheap Trick's cigarette-smoking drummer Bun E. Carlos wearing white shoes in 1979 at 0:58.

    https://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE?t=26

    I met Bun E. Carlos in 1978 or 1979.

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    • Replies: @Trelane
    You da man
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  256. Trelane says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I met Bun E. Carlos in 1978 or 1979.

    You da man

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