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Should the St. Louis Rams Move to Los Angeles?

One advantage of the St. Louis Rams football franchise moving to currently NFL-vacant Los Angeles (along with possibly the San Diego Chargers and, more remotely, the Oakland Raiders) is that it removes the threat of moving to Los Angeles that every NFL franchise in a marginally major league city has possessed for the last 20 years: “Submit to our extortionate demand for a taxpayer-subsidized superstadium or we’re relocating to giant Los Angeles!”

An NFL team is a natural monopoly. (Currently, only the New York and San Francisco Bay metro areas have more than one franchise, although Los Angeles had two from the early 1980s through 1995, when it suddenly went to zero because L.A., for all its faults, at least isn’t neurotic about being a Major League City). And NFL owners are extremely clever about extracting monopoly profits from their hosts.

I’d like to see a federal law outlawing professional sports leagues’ ban on community ownership. If the people of, say, Cleveland, are dead set upon staying a Major League City, let them buy shares in their teams and take on the risks and rewards of ownership.

From Wikipedia:

Green Bay Packers, Inc.

Green Bay Packers, Inc. is the official name of the publicly held nonprofit corporation that owns the Green Bay Packers football franchise of the National Football League (NFL).

The Packers are the only community-owned team in American major league professional sports.[1] Rather than being the property of an individual, partnership, or corporate entity, they are held as of 2015 by 360,584 stockholders. No one is allowed to hold more than 200,000 shares,[2] which represents approximately four percent of the 5,011,557 shares currently outstanding.[3] It is this broad-based community support and non-profit structure[4] which has kept the team in Green Bay for nearly a century in spite of being the smallest market in all of North American professional sports.

Green Bay is the only team with this public form of ownership structure in the NFL, grandfathered when the NFL’s current ownership policy stipulating a maximum of 32 owners per team, with one holding a minimum 30 percent stake, was established in the 1980s.[5] As a publicly held nonprofit, the Packers are also the only American major-league sports franchise to release its financial balance sheet every year.

There’s actually a good reason why the Green Bay Packers are everybody’s third or fourth favorite NFL team. The ownership of the Packers is an example of the Wisconsin talent for figuring out a clever cooperation-competition balance.

Similarly, if you drive around the Wisconsin countryside, you’ll notice it’s full of prosperous, well-tended family farms. One reason for this is that Wisconsin dairy farmers figured out a long time ago that milk-buying was something of a natural monopoly, so whoever wound up owning the trucks that drive around and pick up the milk everyday would make the lion’s share of the profits from the dairy industry. So, the farmers set up co-ops they jointly own to do the milk marketing for them.

This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do, so whoever can finally put together a big company gets ungodly rich (e.g., the Waltons of the Ozarks).

 
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  1. Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don’t know of fans anywhere who don’t envy them and the Packers.

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    • Replies: @MKP
    And (in keeping with Steve's "this is kind of a German thing" analysis) every team in the Bundesliga, including Bayern and Dortmund.

    Germany, if I understand, has the opposite rule from USA's - every team must be owned by member-shareholders, and no individual or company can own more than 49 percent. There are a few instances in which rich guys own virtually half of a team (Hoffenheim is one), but all are majority owned by individual / small shareholders and all decisions are made by a Board of Directors. This has helped Germany avoid the phenomenon of rich foreign royalty buying up teams and stockpiling them with star players (which has happened a lot in England and Spain). Not a problem in the NFL, because of the salary cap.

    Steve, this is a rare instance where you wrote something that could have benefited from a bit more research.
    , @Bill Jones
    Doesn't one of the kraut teams, Bayern perhaps have the same?
    , @Ttjy

    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don’t know of fans anywhere who don’t envy them and the Packers.
     
    I think Real Madrid fans vote for the president. I think they have campaigns on what they will do when elected if I am not mistaken. Maybe Barca and Bilbao do too.The Packers don't have that.

    Bilbao only has Basque players. I don't know if they made an exception to that.

    It's too bad Europe and the US are becoming so multicultural. Even the Basque players in the future won't actually be Basque.
    , @meh

    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don’t know of fans anywhere who don’t envy them and the Packers.
     
    Member owned clubs are quite common in Europe. Even in countries where privately-owned football clubs are the norm, these clubs usually all originally started out as member owned and run clubs 100-150 years ago.

    So even though they are now privately owned, they still feel like community based clubs; and since every town and city has one or more major clubs, and they move up and down via promotion/relegation, no owner really has an option to threaten to move the team to another city in exchange for a new taxpayer funded stadium. All the other cities already have teams.

    In Germany in fact the law requires at least 50% fan ownership. This has not allowed Gulf Arab oil tycoons and Russian oligarchs to swoop in, buy a club, and staff it with international star players, as has happened in the Premier League in England, but it has kept the ticket prices and other aspects of the German game much more fan friendly.
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  2. Mentioned this before, but the story arc in the most recent season of the Showtime series Ray Donovan (about a fixer played by Liev Schreiber) was about moving an NFL team to Los Angeles.

    Somewhat tangentially related, there’s a new Showtime series called Billions, about hedge funds in New York, which is debuting Sunday. The series is co-created by Andrew Ross Sorkin of the New York Times, who also wrote the book about the financial crisis that was turned into the HBO movie. If you click that link, you’ll see a description of the main characters, none of who appear to be Jewish.

    Not that I’d expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd. So I asked Sorkin about it, via Twitter, after he said he’d be happy to talk about the show. No response.

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    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Maybe it's a thinly-veiled fictional exposé of Buddy Fletcher.
    , @Sox fan
    I made the same observation about Ray Donovan -- the idea that the studio guy is Irish is absurd.

    It's not like stereotypes don't work at the box office. Plenty of Boston Irish and NY gang stories have done ok.
    , @DCThrowback
    Who owns Showtime?

    CBS.

    Who runs CBS?

    Les Moonves and Sumner Redstone, nee Rothstein. I am sure they weren't very interested in the development of a show that would take on the titans of high finance in their hometown of New York City, written by a star young reporter from the New York Times.

    Mere coincidence, I am sure. Nothing to see here, please stop noticing all the WASPs who still run Harvard too.
    , @Anonymous
    He wasn't sure the name Pinsen was Jewish therefore couldn't confide in you.
    , @blah blah teleblah
    It appears that the villian's last name is Axelrod.
    , @snorlax
    The villain is named "Bobby Axelrod" (a fictionalized-enough-to-avoid-a-lawsuit version of Steve Cohen), which you could've figured out by watching the show or any of the previews.

    He is played by the not-terribly-Jewish-looking Damian Lewis, but he was most likely cast because of his earlier villainous role on Homeland on the same network.
  3. Being a lifelong 49ers fan I could only hope that the hot tub time machine would magically transport Roman Gabriel and John Brodie for one last romp in the hay.

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  4. @Dave Pinsen
    Mentioned this before, but the story arc in the most recent season of the Showtime series Ray Donovan (about a fixer played by Liev Schreiber) was about moving an NFL team to Los Angeles.

    Somewhat tangentially related, there's a new Showtime series called Billions, about hedge funds in New York, which is debuting Sunday. The series is co-created by Andrew Ross Sorkin of the New York Times, who also wrote the book about the financial crisis that was turned into the HBO movie. If you click that link, you'll see a description of the main characters, none of who appear to be Jewish.

    Not that I'd expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd. So I asked Sorkin about it, via Twitter, after he said he'd be happy to talk about the show. No response.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/687324986818838528

    Maybe it’s a thinly-veiled fictional exposé of Buddy Fletcher.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    There is one black character, but she's a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie.
    , @keypusher
    It's a thinly-veiled expose of Steven A. Cohen (who the government is now settling with, incidentally) and a love note to Preet Bhahara.

    http://nypost.com/2015/08/14/embattled-hedgie-inspires-showtime-series/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/12/business/dealbook/what-the-end-of-the-case-against-steven-cohen-means.html?_r=0

    General Douglas MacArthur said in his retirement speech before Congress that “old soldiers never die; they just fade away.”

    The government crackdown on insider trading, which the F.B.I. called “Operation Perfect Hedge,” seems to be fading away as well with the settlement announced on Friday between Steven A. Cohen and the Securities and Exchange Commission over an administrative charge of failing to supervise an employee convicted of illegal trading.

    The case was the last one of any significance from the investigation into how hedge funds traded on inside information. It ends with little of the fanfare that greeted the failure-to-supervise charge, with no monetary penalty and only a two-year bar on Mr. Cohen investing funds for outside investors.

    I would love it if "Billions" ends that anti-climatically.

  5. @Dave Pinsen
    Mentioned this before, but the story arc in the most recent season of the Showtime series Ray Donovan (about a fixer played by Liev Schreiber) was about moving an NFL team to Los Angeles.

    Somewhat tangentially related, there's a new Showtime series called Billions, about hedge funds in New York, which is debuting Sunday. The series is co-created by Andrew Ross Sorkin of the New York Times, who also wrote the book about the financial crisis that was turned into the HBO movie. If you click that link, you'll see a description of the main characters, none of who appear to be Jewish.

    Not that I'd expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd. So I asked Sorkin about it, via Twitter, after he said he'd be happy to talk about the show. No response.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/687324986818838528

    I made the same observation about Ray Donovan — the idea that the studio guy is Irish is absurd.

    It’s not like stereotypes don’t work at the box office. Plenty of Boston Irish and NY gang stories have done ok.

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  6. About 99% of German professional football teams are owned by individual club members(companies can have minority stakes). There are some exceptions like Bayer Leverkusen which was founded by Bayer or Volkswagen’s VfL Wolfsburg.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%2B1_rule

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  7. Of course, Green Bay is marvelously helped by the fact that it’s kept out any competing franchise in Milwaukee or the state of Wisconsin in general. This, too, is a monopoly, although it’s definitely not a natural one. This allowed Green Bay—which went through a lot of lean years—to remain “beloved”; there was simply no other team for locals to root for (whattaya gonna do, root for Minnesota?? Chicago??)

    This is similar teams in New England. Since the Braves left Boston in the 1950s, there was been a 1-team per sport mentality for all major sports. All 4 teams have chased out any hint of a competing franchise for the region. A few years ago the idea was floated that MLB’s Montreal Expos could move to Boston and set up shop as the local National league franchise. The response in polls was overwhelmingly positive (upwards of 70-80% of local fans were ecstatic, being baseball nuts), but the Red Sox thoroughly quashed the Expos coming in (they eventually went to DC and became the Nationals). The local market was too lucrative to share. The other 3 major franchises have done the same.

    There is, however, a silver lining to this self-enforced-monoply.

    Since all of New England is beholden to those 4 teams (minus the bottom half of Connecticut, which is a suburb of New York and roots for NY teams), this creates huge leverage for the region against the teams. Unlike some of their MLB counterparts, the Red Sox couldn’t force the city or state to build them a new stadium, since they couldn’t honestly threaten to leave (“where else will you be the only team in a major town that sells out games even in losing seasons?”); as a result, the Sox had to merely upgrade old Fenway park. Similarly, the Patriots have long threatened to move—it was St. Louis back in the early 90s (before the Rams moved there), and then it was Hartford. Nobody bit; nobody bought that the Pats would leave a perfect situation fan-wise for a more competitive market (In Hartford, they compete with NY teams; in St. Louis, the Chiefs).

    So, in conclusion, local monopolies can actually backfire in part on the local monopoly holders.

    Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me, but it seemed dumb at the time (for the reasons listed above why the New England teams won’t leave New England), and it seems like they’re fixing their mistake. Good for LA for not selling themselves out to keep them or the Raiders.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    Normally, most any owner would never move a sports franchise from Los Angeles to St. Louis. The Rams owner, the late Georgia Frontiere (widow of 1972-78 owner Carroll Rosenbloom) felt people in LA had been mean to her. So a combination of spite and greed led her and John Shaw to grab a big money deal from St. Louis.

    The funny thing is Shaw put an out clause in the deal--If St. Louis didn't have a top tier stadium 20 years later, the Rams could move again.

    And they did, right back to Los Angeles.
    , @Brutusale
    It allows said teams treat their fans with contempt and build/maintain cheap econo-boxes for stadia. The TD Garden being a foremost example of that, thanks to the cheapest owner in professional sports, while the Red $ox continue to polish the turd that is Fenway Park. It speaks to the parochial, second city vibe in Boston when the Yankee$ can replace YANKEE FREAKING STADIUM but Fenway is untouchable. Keep paying the highest average ticket prices in MLB, suckers.

    I'm a former $ox season ticket holder, and I haven't been to Fenway to see a baseball game in 10 years. It's the single most uncomfortable place in America to watch a sporting event.

    Meanwhile, you have Bob Kraft essentially building his own place for the Patriots. He bought the team for $175 million and they're now allegedly worth $2.6 billion. Sounds like a sound business decision to me!
    , @YIH
    ''Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me''
    No mystery, it came down to the Rams demanding a new football-only stadium, LA told 'em ''nothing wrong with the Colosseum or Anaheim can fix up their stadium''. Actually the Colosseum sucks for NFL football, the running track fouls up the sightlines - you'll see why the Raiders left this fall. After losing the Cardinals, St. Louis realized if they want the NFL they'd have to build a new stadium - no tears shed for them.
    BTW, the NFL is going to make sure the other team is the Chargers, they want to freeze out the Raiders - who are back talking with San Antonio.
    Prediction: Whatever stadium the Raiders go to, you watch, it'll ban costumes/fake weapons. Don't believe me? Check Disneyland - or World to the East, they just did that. Leave your Wookie suit or toy lightsaber at home.
  8. Inglewood’s space for a second team will be used to try to extort new stadia out of the taxpayers of San Diego and Oakland.

    As many of you may know, if you have read a certain someone’s blog over the last year, the St. Louis new stadium plans were nothing more than PR vaporware for our local officials not to get the blame for what they all knew was coming. They wanted to look like they were seriously assembling a stadium financing plan so that nobody would blame them for this town losing it second NFL franchise in a generation. The PR strategy has worked locally but nationally it’s a mixed bag.

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    • Replies: @Gato de la Biblioteca
    The PR strategy has worked locally but nationally it’s a mixed bag.

    Yes, but if they had put forth a serious proposal, would it have worked?

    It looks like the Rams moving back to LA was probably a done deal when Kroenke purchased a majority stake in the team a few years ago. I heard some stuff from Jags owner Shah Khan this morning that indicates St Louis was in a big hole in terms of keeping the team. Apparently the erosion in SL's status as a corporate center is a big part of the reason why they had no chance at keeping the Rams, and why the Jags owner dismissed moving to SL out of hand. (Corporate box revenue isn't part of the NFL's revenue sharing policy, and is thus a prime source of revenue for owners looking to pay off the financing deals they used to purchase the teams.) Hell, even Mark Davis of the Raiders dismissed the possibility of moving to SL, and he's anxious to get the Hell out of the Bay area.

    The vapor from SL political officials might have been for the best, as going forward on a new stadium without a long-term lease from someone, which seems highly unlikely, would have just left SL with a massive boondoggle.
    , @iSteveFan
    Has St Louis been adversely affected by Ferguson and related issues? I understand St Louis County is where the people with means have moved, and St Louis city is where the stadium is. Is the city that bad? Would they have had a better chance if they had a stadium in the suburbs?
    , @boogerbently
    We told the Chargers to leave, and take the Padres with you.
  9. Interesting that all three teams were formerly based in LA. I found the shake-down for the new Vikings stadium interesting. It’s indoors for one thing, which is probably about attracting the Super Bowl (2 Years?) and/or the Final Four. I wonder if the Vikings brain trust noticed that the Vikes have not been back to the big game since they moved inside . Sunday’s outdoor, six below tilt was (despite the horrible closing seconds) a lot of fun. No chance for a repeat once they move inside.

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  10. Haven’t been a football fan in years, but I fondly remember when Tom Mack came to my Cub Scout meeting in 1976. I’m glad to see the Rams back in LA.

    I really like Steve’s idea about a federal law allowing public-private ownership of sports teams. I’m sick of fans and especially taxpayers getting screwed.

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  11. We Anglo-Americans could use a little more Germanism in these times. There’s no more frontier to light out for when you want to try and make your bones, and nobody else is playing by the individualist rules.

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  12. The Rams should go back to Cleveland, and the Browns should go back to the MAC.

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  13. St. Louis poached the Rams from LA in the first place when they failed to get an expansion team after already building a stadium and they were desperate and embarrassed and so gave away the store to get the Rams. I bet they do well in LA this time around.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    Around 1990 at a Sports Collectibles Show, I met a man from St. Louis who was involved with an attempt to get an expansion team for St. Louis. He was optimistic because Walter Payton was part of the prospective ownership and having a black hall of famer involved seemed to make it a sure thing. Or so he thought.

    Turns out they were rejected in favor of Jacksonville.
  14. @Dave Pinsen
    Mentioned this before, but the story arc in the most recent season of the Showtime series Ray Donovan (about a fixer played by Liev Schreiber) was about moving an NFL team to Los Angeles.

    Somewhat tangentially related, there's a new Showtime series called Billions, about hedge funds in New York, which is debuting Sunday. The series is co-created by Andrew Ross Sorkin of the New York Times, who also wrote the book about the financial crisis that was turned into the HBO movie. If you click that link, you'll see a description of the main characters, none of who appear to be Jewish.

    Not that I'd expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd. So I asked Sorkin about it, via Twitter, after he said he'd be happy to talk about the show. No response.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/687324986818838528

    Who owns Showtime?

    CBS.

    Who runs CBS?

    Les Moonves and Sumner Redstone, nee Rothstein. I am sure they weren’t very interested in the development of a show that would take on the titans of high finance in their hometown of New York City, written by a star young reporter from the New York Times.

    Mere coincidence, I am sure. Nothing to see here, please stop noticing all the WASPs who still run Harvard too.

    Read More
  15. @slumber_j
    Maybe it's a thinly-veiled fictional exposé of Buddy Fletcher.

    There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dee nile
    Please tell me they went for the triple and made her a lesbian.
    , @Anonymous
    "There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie."

    Of course she is.

    Speaking of successful black woman, don't you love looking through your college alumni magazines or browsing college or university web sites? Both tend to feature very few photos of young, white men. Those who are featured in photos are often shown participating in theater or music activities (not that there's anything wrong with that) or they're just one person among many, instead of the main focus of the photo. In contrast, there are always lots and lots of close-up photos of women of varying ethnicities shown engaged in "important" activities or photos of non-white men. Also, you will see pictures of older white men (I suppose as a representation of the past, not the future), often shown in conjunction with a non-white male or female student.

    I find this stunning.
  16. Leftist conservative [AKA "radical rebel"] says: • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment

    rabble rabble….socialism…rabble…rabble…universal healthcare….rabble…rabble….destruction of the commons….rabble rabble….sooner or later you run out of other people’s money….rabble rabble….adam smith…rabble rabble….

    did I miss any?

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  17. @5371
    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don't know of fans anywhere who don't envy them and the Packers.

    And (in keeping with Steve’s “this is kind of a German thing” analysis) every team in the Bundesliga, including Bayern and Dortmund.

    Germany, if I understand, has the opposite rule from USA’s – every team must be owned by member-shareholders, and no individual or company can own more than 49 percent. There are a few instances in which rich guys own virtually half of a team (Hoffenheim is one), but all are majority owned by individual / small shareholders and all decisions are made by a Board of Directors. This has helped Germany avoid the phenomenon of rich foreign royalty buying up teams and stockpiling them with star players (which has happened a lot in England and Spain). Not a problem in the NFL, because of the salary cap.

    Steve, this is a rare instance where you wrote something that could have benefited from a bit more research.

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  18. @slumber_j
    Maybe it's a thinly-veiled fictional exposé of Buddy Fletcher.

    It’s a thinly-veiled expose of Steven A. Cohen (who the government is now settling with, incidentally) and a love note to Preet Bhahara.

    http://nypost.com/2015/08/14/embattled-hedgie-inspires-showtime-series/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/12/business/dealbook/what-the-end-of-the-case-against-steven-cohen-means.html?_r=0

    General Douglas MacArthur said in his retirement speech before Congress that “old soldiers never die; they just fade away.”

    The government crackdown on insider trading, which the F.B.I. called “Operation Perfect Hedge,” seems to be fading away as well with the settlement announced on Friday between Steven A. Cohen and the Securities and Exchange Commission over an administrative charge of failing to supervise an employee convicted of illegal trading.

    The case was the last one of any significance from the investigation into how hedge funds traded on inside information. It ends with little of the fanfare that greeted the failure-to-supervise charge, with no monetary penalty and only a two-year bar on Mr. Cohen investing funds for outside investors.

    I would love it if “Billions” ends that anti-climatically.

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  19. There’s actually a good reason why the Green Bay Packers are everybody’s third or fourth favorite NFL team.

    I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. Most of the fan bases of other NFC teams do not like the Packers at all.

    I agree with the rest your comments on the Packers, what they have done in Green Bay, both in terms of the public ownership and the ability to support a franchise in such a small metro area could not have been replicated anywhere else in the country.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Giants fan here. And the Packers are who I root for when the Giants are no longer in the running.
  20. Another difference between the Clevelands and Baltimores and LA is that LA doesn’t have nostalgia for a pre-blockbusting, dense, urban center. Even in DC stadiums (stadia?) have been sold as way to help white people take back the good part of the city.

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  21. I wish they had a law which outlawed using taxpayer funds for stadiums……the NFL should be treated like a religion , thus the separation of church and state would prohibit taxing me to fund their cathedrals.

    Will be interesting to see if the Rams will be able to attract fans, as they were unable to attract fans 22 years ago….seems like they will face the same challenges again in LA, lack of fan support unless the team becomes a playoff contender..

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    • Replies: @SoCalMike
    The Rams will do better this time because the ownership is better. Georgia Frontiere ran the franchise into the ground, first by moving out of the Coliseum into Anaheim Stadium (not a good fotball watching stadium), then trying to extort money from the city. The fans turned on the Rams - the front office wasn't doing what they needed to do to build a strong team. They sucked, really. When they announced they were leaving for greener (?) pastures in STL, the fans here just packed it in. There were barely 20K in the stands for their final home game.

    Mention Georgia Frontiere to long time fans here in So Cal and their heads explode.
    , @MarkinLA
    Georgia was broke except for the team and for some stupid reason wanted to still be part of a club she couldn't afford. Her general manager John Snow was legendary for trying to squeeze money out of the franchise which Georgia needed to live on. He supposedly got her an offer of 200 million for the team but she wouldn't take it.

    Every game some guys in the end zone would unfurl a big banner saying "Please Georgia Sell the Rams".

    They have the same advantage the Dodgers and Lakers do, win and the money will come in - enough to buy more winners.
  22. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Dave Pinsen
    Mentioned this before, but the story arc in the most recent season of the Showtime series Ray Donovan (about a fixer played by Liev Schreiber) was about moving an NFL team to Los Angeles.

    Somewhat tangentially related, there's a new Showtime series called Billions, about hedge funds in New York, which is debuting Sunday. The series is co-created by Andrew Ross Sorkin of the New York Times, who also wrote the book about the financial crisis that was turned into the HBO movie. If you click that link, you'll see a description of the main characters, none of who appear to be Jewish.

    Not that I'd expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd. So I asked Sorkin about it, via Twitter, after he said he'd be happy to talk about the show. No response.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/687324986818838528

    He wasn’t sure the name Pinsen was Jewish therefore couldn’t confide in you.

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  23. @Dave Pinsen
    There is one black character, but she's a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie.

    Please tell me they went for the triple and made her a lesbian.

    Read More
  24. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I was driving to LaCrosse not too long ago and stopped off at a McDonald’s in Sparta, WI (i.e., asshole end of nowhere WI). Four Mestizo laborers were in front of me, speaking Spanish to the counter girl. In LaCrosse I passed a Hmong cultural center and other Hmong social services places. Yes, a million times better than what they’ve got in MN (Somalis), but still not the desirable Germans and Swedes.

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  25. Maybe other cities with NFL teams should pay LA not to have an NFL team. Win-Win as I see it. It might make a fun ballot initiative.

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  26. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Do you think the Packers would be one of America’s favorite team if not for Lombardi?? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ngwK7XjghBU

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    They would be the Los Angeles Packers were it not for Lombardi. "Gentlemen, this is a football"
  27. The Green Bay “ownership” is a scam. Basically a PR move to part smug self satisfied Wisconsinites part with their money. When you buy a “share” in the Packers you are basically buying a decorative certificate for your rumpus room, since that share does not entitle you to dividends or a voting stake in any decision the Packers make.

    So basically a scam preying upon idiot football fans like all the rest except at least it has the benefit of directly scamming cash from fans a la a Nigerian email scam and leaving non-fans alone.

    http://deadspin.com/5866292/the-feel-good-scam-of-owning-the-packers

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  28. @countenance
    Inglewood's space for a second team will be used to try to extort new stadia out of the taxpayers of San Diego and Oakland.

    As many of you may know, if you have read a certain someone's blog over the last year, the St. Louis new stadium plans were nothing more than PR vaporware for our local officials not to get the blame for what they all knew was coming. They wanted to look like they were seriously assembling a stadium financing plan so that nobody would blame them for this town losing it second NFL franchise in a generation. The PR strategy has worked locally but nationally it's a mixed bag.

    The PR strategy has worked locally but nationally it’s a mixed bag.

    Yes, but if they had put forth a serious proposal, would it have worked?

    It looks like the Rams moving back to LA was probably a done deal when Kroenke purchased a majority stake in the team a few years ago. I heard some stuff from Jags owner Shah Khan this morning that indicates St Louis was in a big hole in terms of keeping the team. Apparently the erosion in SL’s status as a corporate center is a big part of the reason why they had no chance at keeping the Rams, and why the Jags owner dismissed moving to SL out of hand. (Corporate box revenue isn’t part of the NFL’s revenue sharing policy, and is thus a prime source of revenue for owners looking to pay off the financing deals they used to purchase the teams.) Hell, even Mark Davis of the Raiders dismissed the possibility of moving to SL, and he’s anxious to get the Hell out of the Bay area.

    The vapor from SL political officials might have been for the best, as going forward on a new stadium without a long-term lease from someone, which seems highly unlikely, would have just left SL with a massive boondoggle.

    Read More
  29. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Similarly, if you drive around the Wisconsin countryside, you’ll notice it’s full of prosperous, well-tended family farms. One reason for this is that Wisconsin dairy farmers figured out a long time ago that milk-buying was something of a natural monopoly, so whoever wound up owning the trucks that drive around and pick up the milk everyday would make the lion’s share of the profits from the dairy industry. So, the farmers set up co-ops they jointly own to do the milk marketing for them.

    This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do, so whoever can finally put together a big company gets ungodly rich (e.g., the Waltons of the Ozarks).

    Reading this makes me happy. This is the kind of world I want to live in – an orderly world where, in a sense, success and wealth are “spread around”, not by the force or arbitrariness of government, but by cooperation among individuals who share a common sense of purpose, community, and cooperation.

    Read More
    • Agree: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    You can get that type of community through the following conditions:

    -Tight labor market
    -High human capital population
    -High trust and civic mindedness
    -Local devolution of power
    -Ethnic homogenity

    That basically means living in a rural area with lots of Scandanavian people.

    , @IBC
    There are agricultural and dairy cooperatives in other parts of the country as well, even in places like Oklahoma. Some are very old and actually represent the consolidation of even earlier, farmer-owned creameries and collectives.

    Steve is knowledgeable about a surprisingly wide range of topics, but he can't know everything. Occasionally, I'm reminded of Michael Crichton's "Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect" (which I learned about here), though I think it's a little strong to describe Steve's writing, most of which is very good. Inaccurate information leads to inaccurate conclusions and that's why corrections matter.

    Here's enough dairy coop info to completely sour you:

    http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/info/dairy/history.pdf
  30. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Is the Edit feature ever going to be reinstated to the comment boxes? I miss it. :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Is the Edit feature ever going to be reinstated to the comment boxes? I miss it.
     
    Funny, I have it on the computer but it's absent on the smartphone. Seems to have a mind of its own.
  31. Completely OT, but the story of the Cal Tech Astrophysicist who has been suspended because he fell in love with one female graduate student and talked about it with another is worth looking into. I get the sense from the reading that both of the women in question are looking for an explanation for their less than stellar performance. — Haven Monahan, Physicist.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/christian-ott-caltech-professor-sexual-harassment-2016-1

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    "Because Christian [the professor] still has a place at Caltech, I feel that I don’t,” Kleiser [the grad student] told BuzzFeed.

    Female thinking at its best. They literally cannot stand the sight of those that they despise - she can only be happy if she never has to lay eyes on his disgusting face again. Her personal happiness is much more important than the man's career or the progress of science. The 125 acre campus of Caltech is not big enough for the two of them. It would be even better if he could be banished from the entire state of California or maybe sent to another planet.

    If you read the story, Kleiser entered into a romantic relationship with Christian and used her relationship as an excuse for not doing her work as a grad student (whereupon he fired her) - she figured that if she was already working on her back then she didn't need to do any actual work. What good is letting your professor shtupp you if you can't at least get a break from your academic work out of it? But women (like other minorities) do not possess moral agency - they can never sin, only be sinned against by white men.

  32. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do, so whoever can finally put together a big company gets ungodly rich (e.g., the Waltons of the Ozarks).

    Steve you should check this book out about the Basset Furniture clan. lot of backstory besides the main points.

    Factory Man: How One Furniture Maker Battled Offshoring, Stayed Local – and Helped Save an American Town

    Read More
    • Replies: @Brutusale
    I second the recommendation. JB III did well and did good.
  33. Sao Pãolo and Rio each have their own leagues.

    That’s what LA should shoot for. A team each for Long Beach, Anaheim, Torrance, Hawthorne, Pasadena, and, in the city, Hollywood, SF Valley, etc.

    London has fourteen professional football clubs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @onetwothree
    You realize that the world would be better with less football, not more, right?
  34. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Dave Pinsen
    There is one black character, but she's a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie.

    “There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie.”

    Of course she is.

    Speaking of successful black woman, don’t you love looking through your college alumni magazines or browsing college or university web sites? Both tend to feature very few photos of young, white men. Those who are featured in photos are often shown participating in theater or music activities (not that there’s anything wrong with that) or they’re just one person among many, instead of the main focus of the photo. In contrast, there are always lots and lots of close-up photos of women of varying ethnicities shown engaged in “important” activities or photos of non-white men. Also, you will see pictures of older white men (I suppose as a representation of the past, not the future), often shown in conjunction with a non-white male or female student.

    I find this stunning.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    Or obvious. Every element of media is engaged in this reality distortion project.

    Celebrate diversity! As long as it's not male, white, or Christian.
    , @AnonAnon
    My son and I spent this fall attending presentation sessions by out of state colleges. The Harvard/Yale/Princeton/UVA (why UVA joined that group is beyond me) admissions presenters were: a Hispanic lesbian (Princeton), gay Asian male (Yale), Indian guy (Harvard), and black male (UVA). White boys need not apply - message received loud and clear. Coincidentally, or maybe not, it was the least informative of the nearly dozen presentations we've attended. They had a great time cracking each other up on stage, though. I took the opportunity to slam them in the feedback email.
    , @penskefile
    This college video practically says "white males not welcome" The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYRDEStj8Q
    , @Blobby5
    I was hiking in northern Maine and the trail promotional materials had black kids! When was the last time you saw a black kid hiking in northern Maine?
    , @Jim Don Bob
    That is just one of several reasons I stopped donating money to my alma mater.
  35. @5371
    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don't know of fans anywhere who don't envy them and the Packers.

    Doesn’t one of the kraut teams, Bayern perhaps have the same?

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    Yes, Bayern, though 25% is in outside corporate hands.
  36. @countenance
    Inglewood's space for a second team will be used to try to extort new stadia out of the taxpayers of San Diego and Oakland.

    As many of you may know, if you have read a certain someone's blog over the last year, the St. Louis new stadium plans were nothing more than PR vaporware for our local officials not to get the blame for what they all knew was coming. They wanted to look like they were seriously assembling a stadium financing plan so that nobody would blame them for this town losing it second NFL franchise in a generation. The PR strategy has worked locally but nationally it's a mixed bag.

    Has St Louis been adversely affected by Ferguson and related issues? I understand St Louis County is where the people with means have moved, and St Louis city is where the stadium is. Is the city that bad? Would they have had a better chance if they had a stadium in the suburbs?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Das
    St Louis City is a rust belt-style city that has been in decline for a long time now. But thanks to 1990s reductions in crime there had been a bit of gentrification.

    After Mike Brown and the resulting protests, there was a massive crime wave in St Louis that couldn't have been good for an NFL franchise or any business.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    The central business district of St Louis is a lot nicer than Detroit's, which also manages to host more than one major league venue. Both football and baseball are a short walk from the Gateway Arch, which sees four million visitors annually.
    , @countenance
    St. Louis County, depending on which parts of it, is either very nice but peaked in population or blackening and declining. The reason I don't think a suburban stadium would have made the difference is that a suburban St. Louis stadium would still have been in the St. Louis area. Remember when Steve Ballmer paid $2 billion for the "other" NBA franchise in Los Angeles, when it was valued at $430 million before hand, this both reset the scale vastly upward in favor of pro sports franchises (which is why I think the other owners arranged the hit on Donald Sterling), but it also showed how much a pro sports franchise in Los Angeles is worth. This really got Kroenke dreaming. The Los Angeles Rams are now instantly worth way way way way more than the St. Louis Rams ever could have been.
    , @Marc
    St. Louis is surprisingly bad. I stayed there over Thanksgiving weekend and was surprised by the "Escape from the New York" vibe all over the Downtown. It was sketchier than downtown Memphis.
    , @Former Darfur
    The city of St. Louis proper is separate from St. Louis County, and has been since the 1870s. White flight from the city itself goes back before WWII, and one describes one's location as North, West, or South County, with the city proper being where "East" County would be.

    Traditionally, South County was Jewish and affluent-liberal, North County being white working class and West County going from old growth suburban to exurban and hobby farms, the Spirit of St. Louis Airport (as opposed to Lambert, a GA/corporate facility) and a large correctional facility for youth offenders. North County has, as you see at Ferguson, gotten much more black in recent years.

    As compared to other southern Midwest cities, STL is more industrial and much more East Coast-like. It was historically a strong union town, which led to things like really strict building codes and restaurants with the toughest health inspectors in the US, but that has abated somewhat.

    I expect that they will get another NFL team if only because of the influence of the beer industry.
  37. @iSteveFan
    Has St Louis been adversely affected by Ferguson and related issues? I understand St Louis County is where the people with means have moved, and St Louis city is where the stadium is. Is the city that bad? Would they have had a better chance if they had a stadium in the suburbs?

    St Louis City is a rust belt-style city that has been in decline for a long time now. But thanks to 1990s reductions in crime there had been a bit of gentrification.

    After Mike Brown and the resulting protests, there was a massive crime wave in St Louis that couldn’t have been good for an NFL franchise or any business.

    Read More
  38. The NFL as a league, like every other professional North American sports league, is probably a natural monopoly. The league, in turn, divies up territories for individual franchises the same way that McDonalds does, except the barriers to entry are, shall we say, a tad bit higher. It’s not all that unusual or outrageous.

    The fact that so many of us (including me) are drawn to it and will spend a significant chunk of our disposable income on following those teams is a much more interesting or perhaps depressing phenomenon, depending on your point of view. As Jerry Seinfeld said, we’re all just rooting for the laundry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Closest thing we get to gladiators. War for office slaves.
  39. @Dave Pinsen
    Mentioned this before, but the story arc in the most recent season of the Showtime series Ray Donovan (about a fixer played by Liev Schreiber) was about moving an NFL team to Los Angeles.

    Somewhat tangentially related, there's a new Showtime series called Billions, about hedge funds in New York, which is debuting Sunday. The series is co-created by Andrew Ross Sorkin of the New York Times, who also wrote the book about the financial crisis that was turned into the HBO movie. If you click that link, you'll see a description of the main characters, none of who appear to be Jewish.

    Not that I'd expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd. So I asked Sorkin about it, via Twitter, after he said he'd be happy to talk about the show. No response.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/687324986818838528

    It appears that the villian’s last name is Axelrod.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Axelrod is portrayed by the English actor Damian Lewis, who is very fair-skinned and strawberry-blond.
  40. attilathehen [AKA "Magda"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    “This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery” I looked up the players in both teams. More than half did not strike me as “German thing. . .Scots-Irish.” When we have a team that is 100% of these two, then write about it. Who cares about a bunch of black football players.

    Read More
    • Replies: @meh

    “This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery” I looked up the players in both teams. More than half did not strike me as “German thing. . .Scots-Irish.” When we have a team that is 100% of these two, then write about it. Who cares about a bunch of black football players.
     
    Talk about missing the point. Steve was talking about the way the business was organized (team ownership), not who the hired help was (the players).

    Forming coops so that a monopoly is avoided and everyone benefits is very German; allowing one tiny family to form a monopoly at everyone else's expense, because they don't know how to cooperate, is very Anglo/Scots-Irish.

    Please stop telling Steve what to write about. It's his blog. No one forced you to come here. Given your lousy reading comprehension, this blog is not doing you any good anyway.
  41. “Similarly, if you drive around the Wisconsin countryside, you’ll notice it’s full of prosperous, well-tended family farms”

    Wisconsin is also known for its very high concentration of people of German ancestry; and Germans are known to be industrious and hardworking.

    Read More
    • Replies: @greysquirrell
    The above post on German American ancestry in Wisconsin , was by me but for some reason my name only appears as a " g " .
  42. Off-topic,

    Quentin Tarantino really likes John Brown:

    You’ve probably heard about what happened next. Lovejoy’s death radicalized white abolitionist John Brown, who later raised a small army that in 1859 overtook Harper’s Ferry in a failed slave revolt. It was Brown’s execution — the third death in the domino chain — that politicized the country and triggered the Civil War.

    Historians call John Brown “America’s first domestic terrorist.” Abraham Lincoln called him “insane.”

    Quentin Tarantino calls him “my favorite American.”

    “His idea was the minute white blood is shed the way black blood is shed, that’s when shit will start changing,” Tarantino says over iced coffees on a brisk afternoon in his Hollywood Hills backyard. “And like all great Americans, he was hanged for treason.”

    A decade ago, Tarantino thought about eventually filming John Brown’s biopic — maybe when he neared 60 and could play the white-bearded rebel himself. Today, at 52, he’s changed his mind. Biographies are too creatively limiting, even for a guy who happily rewrote history by machine-gunning Hitler.

    http://www.laweekly.com/arts/quentin-tarantino-isnt-telling-you-what-to-think-6373160

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Off-topic,

    Quentin Tarantino really likes John Brown...
     

    Back on topic: John Y Brown owned the Kentucky Colonels, one of the strongest franchises in the American Basketball Association. Unlike their Indiana rivals, Brown chose not to pay the Danegeld or whatever to get into the NBA. Pro ball has never returned to Louisville.

    The Spirits of St Louis, though, probably made the biggest killing in US sports history. As part of their settlement with the leagues, the Spirits (which had merged with the much more popular Utah Stars late in the final season, but continued to play in St Louis), or rather their owners, were entitled to one-seventh of the future revenue of the four ABA teams which survived the Pacman-style "merger", the Spurs, Nets, Nuggets and Pacers.

    I don't know why the Colonels and the Virginia Squires didn't get in on the swag. Someone in St Louis is cleaning up on those black Nets caps now in fashion.

  43. @greysquirrell
    "Similarly, if you drive around the Wisconsin countryside, you’ll notice it’s full of prosperous, well-tended family farms"

    Wisconsin is also known for its very high concentration of people of German ancestry; and Germans are known to be industrious and hardworking.

    The above post on German American ancestry in Wisconsin , was by me but for some reason my name only appears as a ” g ” .

    Read More
  44. @iSteveFan
    Has St Louis been adversely affected by Ferguson and related issues? I understand St Louis County is where the people with means have moved, and St Louis city is where the stadium is. Is the city that bad? Would they have had a better chance if they had a stadium in the suburbs?

    The central business district of St Louis is a lot nicer than Detroit’s, which also manages to host more than one major league venue. Both football and baseball are a short walk from the Gateway Arch, which sees four million visitors annually.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kylie
    A Cardinals fan was shot and robbed near Busch stadium ladt fsll. Lived but is paralyzed. One if the usual suspects was arrested.


    http://m.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2015/09/28/fbi-joins-hunt-for-shooter-in-st-louis-cardinals-fan-robbery
  45. A commenter somewhere on the internet suggested that the value of the Rams will jump from $1.5 billion to $4.5 billion when they become a Los Angeles team.

    The value of the Chargers if they also migrate to the city of Angels remained unspeculated on in that comment.

    Read More
  46. @iSteveFan
    Has St Louis been adversely affected by Ferguson and related issues? I understand St Louis County is where the people with means have moved, and St Louis city is where the stadium is. Is the city that bad? Would they have had a better chance if they had a stadium in the suburbs?

    St. Louis County, depending on which parts of it, is either very nice but peaked in population or blackening and declining. The reason I don’t think a suburban stadium would have made the difference is that a suburban St. Louis stadium would still have been in the St. Louis area. Remember when Steve Ballmer paid $2 billion for the “other” NBA franchise in Los Angeles, when it was valued at $430 million before hand, this both reset the scale vastly upward in favor of pro sports franchises (which is why I think the other owners arranged the hit on Donald Sterling), but it also showed how much a pro sports franchise in Los Angeles is worth. This really got Kroenke dreaming. The Los Angeles Rams are now instantly worth way way way way more than the St. Louis Rams ever could have been.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    This is true to extent with one caveat- Ballmer has always had a reputation of way over-paying for things so if the owners wanted to set the market they wouldn't have to sold to Ballmer, who is considered something of a joke precisely for his overpaying ways.
  47. @Bill Jones
    Doesn't one of the kraut teams, Bayern perhaps have the same?

    Yes, Bayern, though 25% is in outside corporate hands.

    Read More
  48. @Anonymous
    "There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie."

    Of course she is.

    Speaking of successful black woman, don't you love looking through your college alumni magazines or browsing college or university web sites? Both tend to feature very few photos of young, white men. Those who are featured in photos are often shown participating in theater or music activities (not that there's anything wrong with that) or they're just one person among many, instead of the main focus of the photo. In contrast, there are always lots and lots of close-up photos of women of varying ethnicities shown engaged in "important" activities or photos of non-white men. Also, you will see pictures of older white men (I suppose as a representation of the past, not the future), often shown in conjunction with a non-white male or female student.

    I find this stunning.

    Or obvious. Every element of media is engaged in this reality distortion project.

    Celebrate diversity! As long as it’s not male, white, or Christian.

    Read More
  49. @Anonymous
    "There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie."

    Of course she is.

    Speaking of successful black woman, don't you love looking through your college alumni magazines or browsing college or university web sites? Both tend to feature very few photos of young, white men. Those who are featured in photos are often shown participating in theater or music activities (not that there's anything wrong with that) or they're just one person among many, instead of the main focus of the photo. In contrast, there are always lots and lots of close-up photos of women of varying ethnicities shown engaged in "important" activities or photos of non-white men. Also, you will see pictures of older white men (I suppose as a representation of the past, not the future), often shown in conjunction with a non-white male or female student.

    I find this stunning.

    My son and I spent this fall attending presentation sessions by out of state colleges. The Harvard/Yale/Princeton/UVA (why UVA joined that group is beyond me) admissions presenters were: a Hispanic lesbian (Princeton), gay Asian male (Yale), Indian guy (Harvard), and black male (UVA). White boys need not apply – message received loud and clear. Coincidentally, or maybe not, it was the least informative of the nearly dozen presentations we’ve attended. They had a great time cracking each other up on stage, though. I took the opportunity to slam them in the feedback email.

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  50. FC Barcelona is my favorite example of this. Its’ members have real power. They elect the President and vote on all major decisions. Furthermore, the member structure is inevitably dominated by those with deep roots in Catalonia. Generally, you can only become a member of FC Barcelona through a familial connection (e.g., your father is a member and your grandfather was a member before him). This has led to the club becoming a strong part of Catalan identity, because of its domination by old stock Catalans. (Ethnic or “pre-Franco” Catalans are less than 40% of Catalonia’s population).

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    It'd be nice to have something like that in the U.S.
  51. Edward Jones Stadium -St Louis
    Broke ground July 13, 1992; 23 years ago
    Opened November 12, 1995; 20 years ago
    Construction cost $280 million

    So the Rams return to LA and their new stadium is going to cost 1.9 billion. It will be stacked with luxury seating and skyboxes to bring in revenue that is not shared with other NFL teams. All TV revenue is shared.

    Shea Stadium (NY Mets) was built for 15-25 million back around 1970. Surely with all private funding.
    The Mets new replacement stadium cost one billion a few years ago and the taxpayers were forced to fund some of it

    The $850 million baseball park (2009) was funded with $615 million in public subsides,[6] including the sale of New York City municipal bonds which are to be repaid by the Mets plus interest. The payments will offset property taxes for the lifetime of the park.[7][8] The Mets are receiving $20 million annually from Citibank in exchange for naming the stadium Citi Field. The entire public cost is being borne by city and state taxpayers in New York.

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    • Replies: @Ganderson
    Shea was publicly funded. Robert Moses wanted the Dodgers to play in a publicly funded stadium in Flushing Meadows. Walter O'Malley Took theland offered by LA County along with the Chicano removal and never looked back. Neil Sullivans The Dodgers Move West is a really good book about the subject ,
  52. The NFL always maintain a few US cities that desperately want, but do not have an NFL franchise. These open markets are used to viable threats to shakedown municipalities for new publicly financed stadiums. LA was unusual in that they refused and did not have to play the game. LA like NYC is too large of a market for the NFL to continue to hold out, so the stadium needed to be privately funded.

    Private financing is why two teams; the Chargers and the Rams or the Raiders and the Rams need to play in one LA stadium to lower costs and keep the franchises financially on par with the publicly subsidized teams.

    Because of NFL revenue sharing, this concerted activity is in all the owners’ interest.

    Like the B10 expanding to the NYC/DC markets, team moves/additions are all about maximizing league profits. Once the revenue of a new publicly funded stadium plus TV revenue in St Louis exceeds the value of whatever the next NFL franchise to move can extract from their current market – they will move to St. Louis.

    So yes, the Rams should move.

    The real question is whether or not St. Louis should pay for another NFL stadium, seeing how they have a perfectly serviceable, but not yet paid off stadium at the moment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The NFL always maintain a few US cities that desperately want, but do not have an NFL franchise.
     
    Two can play at that game. The Packers kept potential Milwaukee rivals at bay for six decades by playing half their home games there, and the Buffalo Bills now do something similar, if not as extensive, with Toronto. This solves Canadians' problem as well: they simultaneously really want and really don't want NFL football in their country.
  53. @Reg Cæsar
    The central business district of St Louis is a lot nicer than Detroit's, which also manages to host more than one major league venue. Both football and baseball are a short walk from the Gateway Arch, which sees four million visitors annually.

    A Cardinals fan was shot and robbed near Busch stadium ladt fsll. Lived but is paralyzed. One if the usual suspects was arrested.

    http://m.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2015/09/28/fbi-joins-hunt-for-shooter-in-st-louis-cardinals-fan-robbery

    Read More
  54. Basically, the Packers are the only pro football team worth rooting for because all the rest of them might be taken away on a moment’s notice, on the whim of a couple of billionaire’s who don’t think they’re getting their money’s worth. If you invested emotion or money in the Rams as a St Louis team they have played you for a fool.

    The same if you get excited about the Rams in LA. They’re just gonna move again if nothing else as a threat to all the other cities.

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  55. @Anonymous
    "There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie."

    Of course she is.

    Speaking of successful black woman, don't you love looking through your college alumni magazines or browsing college or university web sites? Both tend to feature very few photos of young, white men. Those who are featured in photos are often shown participating in theater or music activities (not that there's anything wrong with that) or they're just one person among many, instead of the main focus of the photo. In contrast, there are always lots and lots of close-up photos of women of varying ethnicities shown engaged in "important" activities or photos of non-white men. Also, you will see pictures of older white men (I suppose as a representation of the past, not the future), often shown in conjunction with a non-white male or female student.

    I find this stunning.

    This college video practically says “white males not welcome” The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "This college video practically says “white males not welcome” The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning."

    Wow. Once they start talking about the "new world" they show almost no white men. Unbelievable.

    Videos such as this one should really be a wake-up call to white men in this country. Don't they care about their children's futures? Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don't they care about their sons' futures?
    , @Brutusale
    The University of Houston, former home to Phi Slamma Jamma and whose basketball team was often referred to in Dan Jenkins' books as the Cougroes. And that was the 80s!
  56. @blah blah teleblah
    The NFL as a league, like every other professional North American sports league, is probably a natural monopoly. The league, in turn, divies up territories for individual franchises the same way that McDonalds does, except the barriers to entry are, shall we say, a tad bit higher. It's not all that unusual or outrageous.

    The fact that so many of us (including me) are drawn to it and will spend a significant chunk of our disposable income on following those teams is a much more interesting or perhaps depressing phenomenon, depending on your point of view. As Jerry Seinfeld said, we're all just rooting for the laundry.

    Closest thing we get to gladiators. War for office slaves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    That Bengals game over the weekend was pretty brutal.
  57. @Anonymous
    "There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie."

    Of course she is.

    Speaking of successful black woman, don't you love looking through your college alumni magazines or browsing college or university web sites? Both tend to feature very few photos of young, white men. Those who are featured in photos are often shown participating in theater or music activities (not that there's anything wrong with that) or they're just one person among many, instead of the main focus of the photo. In contrast, there are always lots and lots of close-up photos of women of varying ethnicities shown engaged in "important" activities or photos of non-white men. Also, you will see pictures of older white men (I suppose as a representation of the past, not the future), often shown in conjunction with a non-white male or female student.

    I find this stunning.

    I was hiking in northern Maine and the trail promotional materials had black kids! When was the last time you saw a black kid hiking in northern Maine?

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  58. @countenance
    St. Louis County, depending on which parts of it, is either very nice but peaked in population or blackening and declining. The reason I don't think a suburban stadium would have made the difference is that a suburban St. Louis stadium would still have been in the St. Louis area. Remember when Steve Ballmer paid $2 billion for the "other" NBA franchise in Los Angeles, when it was valued at $430 million before hand, this both reset the scale vastly upward in favor of pro sports franchises (which is why I think the other owners arranged the hit on Donald Sterling), but it also showed how much a pro sports franchise in Los Angeles is worth. This really got Kroenke dreaming. The Los Angeles Rams are now instantly worth way way way way more than the St. Louis Rams ever could have been.

    This is true to extent with one caveat- Ballmer has always had a reputation of way over-paying for things so if the owners wanted to set the market they wouldn’t have to sold to Ballmer, who is considered something of a joke precisely for his overpaying ways.

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    • Replies: @countenance
    Or, that would have been the best reason to sell to him.
  59. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @blah blah teleblah
    It appears that the villian's last name is Axelrod.

    Axelrod is portrayed by the English actor Damian Lewis, who is very fair-skinned and strawberry-blond.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Lewis is a big premium cable TV star in the US. Starred in HBO's Band of Brothers, and Showtime's Homeland.
  60. OT –

    I know Steve has occasionally posted about Uber.

    http://uberpeople.net/threads/30-cents-a-mile-how-on-earth.53488/

    The mileage rate for drivers in Detroit has been cut to $.30. To give an idea just how low this is the IRS Mileage Depreciation rate for 2016 is $.54.

    No way anyone driving for 30 cents a mile is going to be able to afford basic mainainence on their vehicle. I expect to see even more immigrants piled in 6 to an apartments and driving beaters working for Uber as the pay is so low it doesn’t make sense for anyone else.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It seems like Uber is exploiting the sunk cost nonfallacy: you already own a car, so it's worth getting $0.30 per mile, even though you couldn't make a going concern out of it.
  61. “Should the St. Louis Rams Move to Los Angeles?”

    The importance is infinitesimal.

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  62. The (elderly) owner of the Philadelphia Inquirer and Daily News (the only 2 local dailies), just donated the company to a non-profit foundation. You could look at this a number of ways: he says it is to ensure quality journalism forever. Another angle is that his investment is worth zero anyway so there was no way he could sell it anyway (the papers continue to bleed money despite cut after cut). A third angle is that this is to permanently keep the paper out of the hands of non-liberals and safely in the hands of the Cathedral (the paper takes a conventional liberal line). And in case you are wondering, Lenfest is not a Joo.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    A third angle is that this is to permanently keep the paper out of the hands of non-liberals and safely in the hands of the Cathedral (the paper takes a conventional liberal line). And in case you are wondering, Lenfest is not a Joo.
     
    You do a good job of trying to ensure Jews are not falsely labeled. In that same vein could you also show similar good judgement and refrain from throwing around the term 'Cathedral' as it seems to unfairly pin the troubles associated with our leftist world onto Christians.
  63. “Similarly, if you drive around the Wisconsin countryside, you’ll notice it’s full of prosperous, well-tended family farms.”

    Wisconsin also has high % of German ancestry (relative to the rest of the country); and Germans are known for their industriousness and hardworking demeanor.

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  64. OT, but a Guardian commenter says molesting women on NYE is a thing in Turkey too:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/14/cologne-attacks-refugees-segregation-german-government-accommodation#comment-66767300

    Your comment interested me . Mainly because I have lived in Turkey for many years. With this in mind the behaviour of immigrants/refuges in Cologne did not come as a shock to me .

    I can remember going back to ten years ago, when woman (mostly foreign) celebrating New Years Eve in Taksim were surrounded, touched in a sexual nature , in exactly the same modus operandi that took place in Cologne . You could almost guarantee that on January 1st each year, it was a leading article on the Turkish news!

    It even seemed to be happening in 2014!

    http://www.todayszaman.com/national_strict-measures-taken-against-sexual-assault-during-new-years-celebrations_335436.html

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  65. When the Wilpons were making sotta voce noises about taking the Mets elsewhere during the negotiations that resulted in “Citi”field, I thought about going All Packers about sports franchises.

    Maybe that’s the answer. My father and my uncles never – never- got over the loss of the Dodgers. It hurt them almost as much as the loss of a child.

    I hate socialism, but. . .

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    • Replies: @prosa123
    When the Wilpons were making sotta voce noises about taking the Mets elsewhere during the negotiations that resulted in “Citi”field, I thought about going All Packers about sports franchises.

    Not satisfied with the huge public subsidies for Citifield, the Wilpons are now trying to get the city to use taxpayer money to improve the stadiums surrounding by condemning and demolishing Willets Point. It's a collection of mainly ramshackle buildings on rutted, often flood-prone streets just east of the stadium, housing auto repair shops, junkyards, light industries, and other small businesses. Like something you'd see in Calcutta, which no doubt is where some of the business owners are from.
    While Willets Point is unsightly, it provides hundreds of jobs and useful services such as affordable car repairs. Unfortunately it offends the Wilpons' delicate sensitivities and therefore has to go.

    Peter
  66. Maybe all teams should end up in LA and just play for other city places, for a fee, in name only. Seems like it would fit together the modern market and politically correct somehow.

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  67. @SPMoore8
    Completely OT, but the story of the Cal Tech Astrophysicist who has been suspended because he fell in love with one female graduate student and talked about it with another is worth looking into. I get the sense from the reading that both of the women in question are looking for an explanation for their less than stellar performance. -- Haven Monahan, Physicist.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/christian-ott-caltech-professor-sexual-harassment-2016-1

    “Because Christian [the professor] still has a place at Caltech, I feel that I don’t,” Kleiser [the grad student] told BuzzFeed.

    Female thinking at its best. They literally cannot stand the sight of those that they despise – she can only be happy if she never has to lay eyes on his disgusting face again. Her personal happiness is much more important than the man’s career or the progress of science. The 125 acre campus of Caltech is not big enough for the two of them. It would be even better if he could be banished from the entire state of California or maybe sent to another planet.

    If you read the story, Kleiser entered into a romantic relationship with Christian and used her relationship as an excuse for not doing her work as a grad student (whereupon he fired her) – she figured that if she was already working on her back then she didn’t need to do any actual work. What good is letting your professor shtupp you if you can’t at least get a break from your academic work out of it? But women (like other minorities) do not possess moral agency – they can never sin, only be sinned against by white men.

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  68. @Sam Haysom
    This is true to extent with one caveat- Ballmer has always had a reputation of way over-paying for things so if the owners wanted to set the market they wouldn't have to sold to Ballmer, who is considered something of a joke precisely for his overpaying ways.

    Or, that would have been the best reason to sell to him.

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  69. @Jack D
    The (elderly) owner of the Philadelphia Inquirer and Daily News (the only 2 local dailies), just donated the company to a non-profit foundation. You could look at this a number of ways: he says it is to ensure quality journalism forever. Another angle is that his investment is worth zero anyway so there was no way he could sell it anyway (the papers continue to bleed money despite cut after cut). A third angle is that this is to permanently keep the paper out of the hands of non-liberals and safely in the hands of the Cathedral (the paper takes a conventional liberal line). And in case you are wondering, Lenfest is not a Joo.

    A third angle is that this is to permanently keep the paper out of the hands of non-liberals and safely in the hands of the Cathedral (the paper takes a conventional liberal line). And in case you are wondering, Lenfest is not a Joo.

    You do a good job of trying to ensure Jews are not falsely labeled. In that same vein could you also show similar good judgement and refrain from throwing around the term ‘Cathedral’ as it seems to unfairly pin the troubles associated with our leftist world onto Christians.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Look, I didn't invent the coinage of "The Cathedral". I believe that it was Moldbug who came up with this, but I wouldn't swear to it. I assume that he meant it in an ironic way, not that he was implying that "The Cathedral" is somehow a Christian thing. In fact the opposite - the left takes the place of the Church in modern life and tells us what is right and wrong (often in direct contradiction to Judeo-Christian teachings, e.g. regarding sexuality).

    Here he is in 2009: "And the left is the party of the educational organs, at whose head is the press and universities. This is our 20th-century version of the established church. Here at UR, we sometimes call it the Cathedral..."

    You obviously knew what I meant and it's a convenient shorthand. I'm sooo sorry if I have micro-offended you but I suggest you take it up with Moldbug and ask him to un-invent his meme.

  70. @iSteveFan

    A third angle is that this is to permanently keep the paper out of the hands of non-liberals and safely in the hands of the Cathedral (the paper takes a conventional liberal line). And in case you are wondering, Lenfest is not a Joo.
     
    You do a good job of trying to ensure Jews are not falsely labeled. In that same vein could you also show similar good judgement and refrain from throwing around the term 'Cathedral' as it seems to unfairly pin the troubles associated with our leftist world onto Christians.

    Look, I didn’t invent the coinage of “The Cathedral”. I believe that it was Moldbug who came up with this, but I wouldn’t swear to it. I assume that he meant it in an ironic way, not that he was implying that “The Cathedral” is somehow a Christian thing. In fact the opposite – the left takes the place of the Church in modern life and tells us what is right and wrong (often in direct contradiction to Judeo-Christian teachings, e.g. regarding sexuality).

    Here he is in 2009: “And the left is the party of the educational organs, at whose head is the press and universities. This is our 20th-century version of the established church. Here at UR, we sometimes call it the Cathedral…”

    You obviously knew what I meant and it’s a convenient shorthand. I’m sooo sorry if I have micro-offended you but I suggest you take it up with Moldbug and ask him to un-invent his meme.

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  71. @countenance
    Inglewood's space for a second team will be used to try to extort new stadia out of the taxpayers of San Diego and Oakland.

    As many of you may know, if you have read a certain someone's blog over the last year, the St. Louis new stadium plans were nothing more than PR vaporware for our local officials not to get the blame for what they all knew was coming. They wanted to look like they were seriously assembling a stadium financing plan so that nobody would blame them for this town losing it second NFL franchise in a generation. The PR strategy has worked locally but nationally it's a mixed bag.

    We told the Chargers to leave, and take the Padres with you.

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  72. The Packers are talking about improvements to Lambeau Field. If so, there may be another stock offering coming up.

    I missed my chance 3 years ago, but I am definitely going to pick up a few shares when they go on sale next. They make great presents for truly deserving Americans. And the annual meeting is a blast!

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    • Replies: @njguy73
    Even though it is referred to as "common stock" in corporate offering documents, a share of Packers stock does not share the same rights traditionally associated with common or preferred stock. It does not include an equity interest, does not pay dividends, can not be traded, has no securities-law protection, and brings no season ticket purchase privileges. All shareholders receive are voting rights, an invitation to the corporation's annual meeting, and an opportunity to purchase exclusive shareholder-only merchandise.[30] Shares of stock cannot be resold, except back to the team for a fraction of the original price. While new shares can be given as gifts, transfers are technically allowed only between immediate family members once ownership has been established.[29]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers#Community_ownership
  73. The NFL television revenue sharing was aimed at two teams, the SF 49ers and the Dallas Cowboys. That and the salary cap sufficiently hobbled them to where we regularly lose to Arizona and Seattle now. Ugh.

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    • Replies: @Travis
    Pete Rozelle introduced revenue sharing among NFL teams in 1960 , before Dallas or San Fran had teams...

    One of Rozelle's early accomplishments was having the league adopt profit-sharing of gate and television revenues. The revenue-sharing was a major factor in stabilizing the NFL and guaranteeing the success of its small-market teams. Without this change in 1960 the Packers would have disbanded before the first Super Bowl.
  74. @Anonymous
    Is the Edit feature ever going to be reinstated to the comment boxes? I miss it. :)

    Is the Edit feature ever going to be reinstated to the comment boxes? I miss it.

    Funny, I have it on the computer but it’s absent on the smartphone. Seems to have a mind of its own.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Maybe it's available on my computer. However, I usually use my Ipad to post messages and it's not available on it, although I think it used to be.
  75. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Reg Cæsar

    Is the Edit feature ever going to be reinstated to the comment boxes? I miss it.
     
    Funny, I have it on the computer but it's absent on the smartphone. Seems to have a mind of its own.

    Maybe it’s available on my computer. However, I usually use my Ipad to post messages and it’s not available on it, although I think it used to be.

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  76. @syonredux
    Off-topic,

    Quentin Tarantino really likes John Brown:


    You've probably heard about what happened next. Lovejoy's death radicalized white abolitionist John Brown, who later raised a small army that in 1859 overtook Harper's Ferry in a failed slave revolt. It was Brown's execution — the third death in the domino chain — that politicized the country and triggered the Civil War.

    Historians call John Brown "America's first domestic terrorist." Abraham Lincoln called him "insane."

    Quentin Tarantino calls him "my favorite American."

    "His idea was the minute white blood is shed the way black blood is shed, that's when shit will start changing," Tarantino says over iced coffees on a brisk afternoon in his Hollywood Hills backyard. "And like all great Americans, he was hanged for treason."

    A decade ago, Tarantino thought about eventually filming John Brown's biopic — maybe when he neared 60 and could play the white-bearded rebel himself. Today, at 52, he's changed his mind. Biographies are too creatively limiting, even for a guy who happily rewrote history by machine-gunning Hitler.
     

    http://www.laweekly.com/arts/quentin-tarantino-isnt-telling-you-what-to-think-6373160

    Off-topic,

    Quentin Tarantino really likes John Brown

    Back on topic: John Y Brown owned the Kentucky Colonels, one of the strongest franchises in the American Basketball Association. Unlike their Indiana rivals, Brown chose not to pay the Danegeld or whatever to get into the NBA. Pro ball has never returned to Louisville.

    The Spirits of St Louis, though, probably made the biggest killing in US sports history. As part of their settlement with the leagues, the Spirits (which had merged with the much more popular Utah Stars late in the final season, but continued to play in St Louis), or rather their owners, were entitled to one-seventh of the future revenue of the four ABA teams which survived the Pacman-style “merger”, the Spurs, Nets, Nuggets and Pacers.

    I don’t know why the Colonels and the Virginia Squires didn’t get in on the swag. Someone in St Louis is cleaning up on those black Nets caps now in fashion.

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    • Replies: @njguy73
    It's these guys.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozzie_and_Daniel_Silna

    And it's the all-time, A-Number-1, top-of-the-line, king-of the-hill, big-swinging-dick killing in US sports history.
    , @Brutusale
    John Y. Brown, the man whose stupidity almost drove Red Auerbach out of basketball! Thank God Harry Mangurian bought him out after one season!
  77. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @penskefile
    This college video practically says "white males not welcome" The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYRDEStj8Q

    “This college video practically says “white males not welcome” The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning.”

    Wow. Once they start talking about the “new world” they show almost no white men. Unbelievable.

    Videos such as this one should really be a wake-up call to white men in this country. Don’t they care about their children’s futures? Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don’t they care about their sons’ futures?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don’t they care about their sons’ futures?"

    Perhaps the purpose of all of this anti-white male-ism is to drive white women into the arms of "men of color", who in this brave new world will have significantly better career prospects than white man.

    Encouraging miscegenation through financial incentive ... because propaganda alone might not be enough.
    , @Karl
    >> white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities?

    Harvard & Yale can recruit all the trans lesbo mulattos they want. Those people will not be hired to write the next generation of WallStreet trading algorithms, nor to design the next generation of laser radars.

    Cream always rises to the top.
    , @Corvinus
    Yes, how dare ONE college video shows people other than white males. What an outrage! I mean, white men don't even have a prayer anymore with jobs, or girls, or, in fact, anything. Might as well MGTOW, right?
  78. @5371
    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don't know of fans anywhere who don't envy them and the Packers.

    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don’t know of fans anywhere who don’t envy them and the Packers.

    I think Real Madrid fans vote for the president. I think they have campaigns on what they will do when elected if I am not mistaken. Maybe Barca and Bilbao do too.The Packers don’t have that.

    Bilbao only has Basque players. I don’t know if they made an exception to that.

    It’s too bad Europe and the US are becoming so multicultural. Even the Basque players in the future won’t actually be Basque.

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  79. @Muse
    The NFL always maintain a few US cities that desperately want, but do not have an NFL franchise. These open markets are used to viable threats to shakedown municipalities for new publicly financed stadiums. LA was unusual in that they refused and did not have to play the game. LA like NYC is too large of a market for the NFL to continue to hold out, so the stadium needed to be privately funded.

    Private financing is why two teams; the Chargers and the Rams or the Raiders and the Rams need to play in one LA stadium to lower costs and keep the franchises financially on par with the publicly subsidized teams.

    Because of NFL revenue sharing, this concerted activity is in all the owners' interest.

    Like the B10 expanding to the NYC/DC markets, team moves/additions are all about maximizing league profits. Once the revenue of a new publicly funded stadium plus TV revenue in St Louis exceeds the value of whatever the next NFL franchise to move can extract from their current market - they will move to St. Louis.

    So yes, the Rams should move.

    The real question is whether or not St. Louis should pay for another NFL stadium, seeing how they have a perfectly serviceable, but not yet paid off stadium at the moment.

    The NFL always maintain a few US cities that desperately want, but do not have an NFL franchise.

    Two can play at that game. The Packers kept potential Milwaukee rivals at bay for six decades by playing half their home games there, and the Buffalo Bills now do something similar, if not as extensive, with Toronto. This solves Canadians’ problem as well: they simultaneously really want and really don’t want NFL football in their country.

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    • Replies: @Muse
    I think the Packers playing in Milwaukee merely recognized the fact that it is part of their regional market. Wisconsin is only big enough for one NFL team, if that, and that includes drawing on the UP. I say this while surrounded by foam cheesehead hats.

    No doubt they make more money on games at Lambeau now than the games they played at County Stadium.
  80. @Reg Cæsar

    The NFL always maintain a few US cities that desperately want, but do not have an NFL franchise.
     
    Two can play at that game. The Packers kept potential Milwaukee rivals at bay for six decades by playing half their home games there, and the Buffalo Bills now do something similar, if not as extensive, with Toronto. This solves Canadians' problem as well: they simultaneously really want and really don't want NFL football in their country.

    I think the Packers playing in Milwaukee merely recognized the fact that it is part of their regional market. Wisconsin is only big enough for one NFL team, if that, and that includes drawing on the UP. I say this while surrounded by foam cheesehead hats.

    No doubt they make more money on games at Lambeau now than the games they played at County Stadium.

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    • Replies: @njguy73
    Per Wikipedia, in the 1950's "the issue of a new stadium began to crop up. City Stadium [the Packers' home from 1925 to 1956] was an extremely inadequate facility, seating only 25,000. Players also had to use the locker rooms at the local high school. In order to improve revenue, the Packers began playing one or two home games a year at the newly constructed Milwaukee County Stadium, a practice that continued until 1995.

    By 1956, "the status of the Packers staying in Green Bay was becoming unstable. With City Stadium greatly outdated, and more and more opponents asking for their games against the Packers to be played at County Stadium in Milwaukee, the NFL told the Packers that if they wanted to stay in Green Bay, they had to build a new stadium. The Packers and the city of Green Bay complied, building a brand new 32,000-seat stadium, naming it New City Stadium [now called Lambeau Field.]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Green_Bay_Packers#The_first_.22Dark_Ages.22_.281945-1958.29
  81. @Reg Cæsar
    Sao Pãolo and Rio each have their own leagues.

    That's what LA should shoot for. A team each for Long Beach, Anaheim, Torrance, Hawthorne, Pasadena, and, in the city, Hollywood, SF Valley, etc.

    London has fourteen professional football clubs.

    You realize that the world would be better with less football, not more, right?

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  82. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    "This college video practically says “white males not welcome” The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning."

    Wow. Once they start talking about the "new world" they show almost no white men. Unbelievable.

    Videos such as this one should really be a wake-up call to white men in this country. Don't they care about their children's futures? Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don't they care about their sons' futures?

    “Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don’t they care about their sons’ futures?”

    Perhaps the purpose of all of this anti-white male-ism is to drive white women into the arms of “men of color”, who in this brave new world will have significantly better career prospects than white man.

    Encouraging miscegenation through financial incentive … because propaganda alone might not be enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonAnon
    White women aren't nearly the mercenary, status-obsessed gold diggers that Asian or Jewish women are. They'd rather be the main breadwinner or be alone than marry men of color. Besides, men in trades can earn very decent money. The hottie stud with a tool belt is a female fantasy stereotype for a reason.
  83. @Vendetta
    Closest thing we get to gladiators. War for office slaves.

    That Bengals game over the weekend was pretty brutal.

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  84. @Anonymous
    Axelrod is portrayed by the English actor Damian Lewis, who is very fair-skinned and strawberry-blond.

    Lewis is a big premium cable TV star in the US. Starred in HBO’s Band of Brothers, and Showtime’s Homeland.

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    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    Did you ever watch life Dave? I thought he was spectacular in that show. Pretty good show all around.
  85. If an NFL team confers such enviable salubrious economic benefit on a city, then our Dear Rulers and the bien pensant ought to have teamed up to force the Rams to move to Camden, New Jersey.

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  86. @Anonymous
    Do you think the Packers would be one of America's favorite team if not for Lombardi?? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ngwK7XjghBU

    They would be the Los Angeles Packers were it not for Lombardi. “Gentlemen, this is a football”

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    • Replies: @FPD72
    To which Max Magee then quipped, "Slow down Coach, you're going too fast!"
    , @Reg Cæsar
    You're confusing Lonbardi with Lambeau:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers,_Inc.

    Lombardi was in Brooklyn kneepants when the structure was set up that makes the Acme Meat Packers the only club in any major league that can't move to LA.
  87. @attilathehen
    "This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery" I looked up the players in both teams. More than half did not strike me as "German thing. . .Scots-Irish." When we have a team that is 100% of these two, then write about it. Who cares about a bunch of black football players.

    “This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery” I looked up the players in both teams. More than half did not strike me as “German thing. . .Scots-Irish.” When we have a team that is 100% of these two, then write about it. Who cares about a bunch of black football players.

    Talk about missing the point. Steve was talking about the way the business was organized (team ownership), not who the hired help was (the players).

    Forming coops so that a monopoly is avoided and everyone benefits is very German; allowing one tiny family to form a monopoly at everyone else’s expense, because they don’t know how to cooperate, is very Anglo/Scots-Irish.

    Please stop telling Steve what to write about. It’s his blog. No one forced you to come here. Given your lousy reading comprehension, this blog is not doing you any good anyway.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    You must have a "hard crush" on the "German-Scots Irish"
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    Most of the world can't cooperate. Family-based monopolies are pretty standard in most of the world. The Scandanavian cooperativeness is a unique quality.

    By the way, most of us are football fans.
  88. @whorefinder
    Of course, Green Bay is marvelously helped by the fact that it's kept out any competing franchise in Milwaukee or the state of Wisconsin in general. This, too, is a monopoly, although it's definitely not a natural one. This allowed Green Bay---which went through a lot of lean years---to remain "beloved"; there was simply no other team for locals to root for (whattaya gonna do, root for Minnesota?? Chicago??)

    This is similar teams in New England. Since the Braves left Boston in the 1950s, there was been a 1-team per sport mentality for all major sports. All 4 teams have chased out any hint of a competing franchise for the region. A few years ago the idea was floated that MLB's Montreal Expos could move to Boston and set up shop as the local National league franchise. The response in polls was overwhelmingly positive (upwards of 70-80% of local fans were ecstatic, being baseball nuts), but the Red Sox thoroughly quashed the Expos coming in (they eventually went to DC and became the Nationals). The local market was too lucrative to share. The other 3 major franchises have done the same.

    There is, however, a silver lining to this self-enforced-monoply.

    Since all of New England is beholden to those 4 teams (minus the bottom half of Connecticut, which is a suburb of New York and roots for NY teams), this creates huge leverage for the region against the teams. Unlike some of their MLB counterparts, the Red Sox couldn't force the city or state to build them a new stadium, since they couldn't honestly threaten to leave ("where else will you be the only team in a major town that sells out games even in losing seasons?"); as a result, the Sox had to merely upgrade old Fenway park. Similarly, the Patriots have long threatened to move---it was St. Louis back in the early 90s (before the Rams moved there), and then it was Hartford. Nobody bit; nobody bought that the Pats would leave a perfect situation fan-wise for a more competitive market (In Hartford, they compete with NY teams; in St. Louis, the Chiefs).

    So, in conclusion, local monopolies can actually backfire in part on the local monopoly holders.

    Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me, but it seemed dumb at the time (for the reasons listed above why the New England teams won't leave New England), and it seems like they're fixing their mistake. Good for LA for not selling themselves out to keep them or the Raiders.

    Normally, most any owner would never move a sports franchise from Los Angeles to St. Louis. The Rams owner, the late Georgia Frontiere (widow of 1972-78 owner Carroll Rosenbloom) felt people in LA had been mean to her. So a combination of spite and greed led her and John Shaw to grab a big money deal from St. Louis.

    The funny thing is Shaw put an out clause in the deal–If St. Louis didn’t have a top tier stadium 20 years later, the Rams could move again.

    And they did, right back to Los Angeles.

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  89. @5371
    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don't know of fans anywhere who don't envy them and the Packers.

    Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao also have a member-owned structure. I don’t know of fans anywhere who don’t envy them and the Packers.

    Member owned clubs are quite common in Europe. Even in countries where privately-owned football clubs are the norm, these clubs usually all originally started out as member owned and run clubs 100-150 years ago.

    So even though they are now privately owned, they still feel like community based clubs; and since every town and city has one or more major clubs, and they move up and down via promotion/relegation, no owner really has an option to threaten to move the team to another city in exchange for a new taxpayer funded stadium. All the other cities already have teams.

    In Germany in fact the law requires at least 50% fan ownership. This has not allowed Gulf Arab oil tycoons and Russian oligarchs to swoop in, buy a club, and staff it with international star players, as has happened in the Premier League in England, but it has kept the ticket prices and other aspects of the German game much more fan friendly.

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  90. @Flip
    St. Louis poached the Rams from LA in the first place when they failed to get an expansion team after already building a stadium and they were desperate and embarrassed and so gave away the store to get the Rams. I bet they do well in LA this time around.

    Around 1990 at a Sports Collectibles Show, I met a man from St. Louis who was involved with an attempt to get an expansion team for St. Louis. He was optimistic because Walter Payton was part of the prospective ownership and having a black hall of famer involved seemed to make it a sure thing. Or so he thought.

    Turns out they were rejected in favor of Jacksonville.

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    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    That would have been in 1994 or 1995 and the proposed team was to be known as the Stallions. Somewhere in my attic is a small sweatshirt with the Stallions logo on it. They printed up two piles of stuff with both Stallions and Jaguars logos so as to be first to market and the agreement was that all the losing bidders' merch was to be shredded. This one escaped because an employee of the TV station covering the printing plant needed a rag for something and an employee of the plant tossed it to him.

    The logo is quite different than the one shown in the Google illustration. Similar horse, but entirely different script.

    I was in STL at around that time and Payton was somewhere in the West Port Plaza area, I think around Dierdorf and Hart's steak house (overrated!) and he was being mobbed by a bunch of West County cheerleader girls. I didn't know squat about football, but I well remembered he and Joe Montana co-hosted a Saturday Night Live on which Debbie Harry was the musical guest. So I walked up to him and asked him about the show. He was quite polite and I was sad when he passed away.
  91. I just listened to the latest Bill Simmons podcast, on which he and his bestie Malcolm Gladwell discuss the Rams’ move to LA at length.

    Not much of great interest as per the content, but I was struck by how the dynamic between Simmons and Gladwell has shifted over the years. When Gladwell first appeared on Simmons’s then-espn-based BS Report podcast, Simmons was in awestruck worshipful fanboy mode.

    Simmons is now in full control of his own media niche, and it showed in this latest podcast. Simmons was running the show and throwing out the ideas, and Gladwell was reduced to more or less playing straight man.

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    • Replies: @AlexT
    Gladwell's reputation has taken a big hit from what i understand. I have a feeling it originated from MSM hacks reading a lot of iSteve.
  92. @iSteveFan
    Has St Louis been adversely affected by Ferguson and related issues? I understand St Louis County is where the people with means have moved, and St Louis city is where the stadium is. Is the city that bad? Would they have had a better chance if they had a stadium in the suburbs?

    St. Louis is surprisingly bad. I stayed there over Thanksgiving weekend and was surprised by the “Escape from the New York” vibe all over the Downtown. It was sketchier than downtown Memphis.

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    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    No sane white people live in the city itself. West and South County are pretty nice.
  93. attilathehen [AKA "magda"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @meh

    “This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery” I looked up the players in both teams. More than half did not strike me as “German thing. . .Scots-Irish.” When we have a team that is 100% of these two, then write about it. Who cares about a bunch of black football players.
     
    Talk about missing the point. Steve was talking about the way the business was organized (team ownership), not who the hired help was (the players).

    Forming coops so that a monopoly is avoided and everyone benefits is very German; allowing one tiny family to form a monopoly at everyone else's expense, because they don't know how to cooperate, is very Anglo/Scots-Irish.

    Please stop telling Steve what to write about. It's his blog. No one forced you to come here. Given your lousy reading comprehension, this blog is not doing you any good anyway.

    You must have a “hard crush” on the “German-Scots Irish”

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  94. @Muse
    I think the Packers playing in Milwaukee merely recognized the fact that it is part of their regional market. Wisconsin is only big enough for one NFL team, if that, and that includes drawing on the UP. I say this while surrounded by foam cheesehead hats.

    No doubt they make more money on games at Lambeau now than the games they played at County Stadium.

    Per Wikipedia, in the 1950′s “the issue of a new stadium began to crop up. City Stadium [the Packers' home from 1925 to 1956] was an extremely inadequate facility, seating only 25,000. Players also had to use the locker rooms at the local high school. In order to improve revenue, the Packers began playing one or two home games a year at the newly constructed Milwaukee County Stadium, a practice that continued until 1995.

    By 1956, “the status of the Packers staying in Green Bay was becoming unstable. With City Stadium greatly outdated, and more and more opponents asking for their games against the Packers to be played at County Stadium in Milwaukee, the NFL told the Packers that if they wanted to stay in Green Bay, they had to build a new stadium. The Packers and the city of Green Bay complied, building a brand new 32,000-seat stadium, naming it New City Stadium [now called Lambeau Field.]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Green_Bay_Packers#The_first_.22Dark_Ages.22_.281945-1958.29

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  95. @Reg Cæsar

    Off-topic,

    Quentin Tarantino really likes John Brown...
     

    Back on topic: John Y Brown owned the Kentucky Colonels, one of the strongest franchises in the American Basketball Association. Unlike their Indiana rivals, Brown chose not to pay the Danegeld or whatever to get into the NBA. Pro ball has never returned to Louisville.

    The Spirits of St Louis, though, probably made the biggest killing in US sports history. As part of their settlement with the leagues, the Spirits (which had merged with the much more popular Utah Stars late in the final season, but continued to play in St Louis), or rather their owners, were entitled to one-seventh of the future revenue of the four ABA teams which survived the Pacman-style "merger", the Spurs, Nets, Nuggets and Pacers.

    I don't know why the Colonels and the Virginia Squires didn't get in on the swag. Someone in St Louis is cleaning up on those black Nets caps now in fashion.

    It’s these guys.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozzie_and_Daniel_Silna

    And it’s the all-time, A-Number-1, top-of-the-line, king-of the-hill, big-swinging-dick killing in US sports history.

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  96. @Big Bill
    The Packers are talking about improvements to Lambeau Field. If so, there may be another stock offering coming up.

    I missed my chance 3 years ago, but I am definitely going to pick up a few shares when they go on sale next. They make great presents for truly deserving Americans. And the annual meeting is a blast!

    Even though it is referred to as “common stock” in corporate offering documents, a share of Packers stock does not share the same rights traditionally associated with common or preferred stock. It does not include an equity interest, does not pay dividends, can not be traded, has no securities-law protection, and brings no season ticket purchase privileges. All shareholders receive are voting rights, an invitation to the corporation’s annual meeting, and an opportunity to purchase exclusive shareholder-only merchandise.[30] Shares of stock cannot be resold, except back to the team for a fraction of the original price. While new shares can be given as gifts, transfers are technically allowed only between immediate family members once ownership has been established.[29]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers#Community_ownership

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    • Replies: @Big Bill
    Oh my goodness! I never realized!

    I thought Packer management was going to consult with me on team business! I thought I could retire on the dividend I would get for my Packer share!

    I was going to get RICH! I was going to get a free skybox!

    Thank you so much for warning me! What a dastardly scam they are running!

    I feel almost as bad as I did when I bought my Pet Rock a few decades ago and found out ... it wasn't even alive!
  97. @Dave Pinsen
    Lewis is a big premium cable TV star in the US. Starred in HBO's Band of Brothers, and Showtime's Homeland.

    Did you ever watch life Dave? I thought he was spectacular in that show. Pretty good show all around.

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  98. There is actually a long history in the Midwest of Mutual companies, especially banks. Iowa has had several including Amana Corporation.

    It was a model that went away for a while, in the 80′s and 90′s, but hopefully may be coming back.

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  99. @David In TN
    Around 1990 at a Sports Collectibles Show, I met a man from St. Louis who was involved with an attempt to get an expansion team for St. Louis. He was optimistic because Walter Payton was part of the prospective ownership and having a black hall of famer involved seemed to make it a sure thing. Or so he thought.

    Turns out they were rejected in favor of Jacksonville.

    That would have been in 1994 or 1995 and the proposed team was to be known as the Stallions. Somewhere in my attic is a small sweatshirt with the Stallions logo on it. They printed up two piles of stuff with both Stallions and Jaguars logos so as to be first to market and the agreement was that all the losing bidders’ merch was to be shredded. This one escaped because an employee of the TV station covering the printing plant needed a rag for something and an employee of the plant tossed it to him.

    The logo is quite different than the one shown in the Google illustration. Similar horse, but entirely different script.

    I was in STL at around that time and Payton was somewhere in the West Port Plaza area, I think around Dierdorf and Hart’s steak house (overrated!) and he was being mobbed by a bunch of West County cheerleader girls. I didn’t know squat about football, but I well remembered he and Joe Montana co-hosted a Saturday Night Live on which Debbie Harry was the musical guest. So I walked up to him and asked him about the show. He was quite polite and I was sad when he passed away.

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  100. @Hibernian
    They would be the Los Angeles Packers were it not for Lombardi. "Gentlemen, this is a football"

    To which Max Magee then quipped, “Slow down Coach, you’re going too fast!”

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  101. @Anonymous
    "This college video practically says “white males not welcome” The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning."

    Wow. Once they start talking about the "new world" they show almost no white men. Unbelievable.

    Videos such as this one should really be a wake-up call to white men in this country. Don't they care about their children's futures? Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don't they care about their sons' futures?

    >> white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities?

    Harvard & Yale can recruit all the trans lesbo mulattos they want. Those people will not be hired to write the next generation of WallStreet trading algorithms, nor to design the next generation of laser radars.

    Cream always rises to the top.

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  102. @Anonymous

    Similarly, if you drive around the Wisconsin countryside, you’ll notice it’s full of prosperous, well-tended family farms. One reason for this is that Wisconsin dairy farmers figured out a long time ago that milk-buying was something of a natural monopoly, so whoever wound up owning the trucks that drive around and pick up the milk everyday would make the lion’s share of the profits from the dairy industry. So, the farmers set up co-ops they jointly own to do the milk marketing for them.

    This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do, so whoever can finally put together a big company gets ungodly rich (e.g., the Waltons of the Ozarks).
     
    Reading this makes me happy. This is the kind of world I want to live in - an orderly world where, in a sense, success and wealth are "spread around", not by the force or arbitrariness of government, but by cooperation among individuals who share a common sense of purpose, community, and cooperation.

    You can get that type of community through the following conditions:

    -Tight labor market
    -High human capital population
    -High trust and civic mindedness
    -Local devolution of power
    -Ethnic homogenity

    That basically means living in a rural area with lots of Scandanavian people.

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    • Replies: @IBC
    "Family farms" in Wisconsin are often highly dependent on immigrant laborers (frequently illegal) to maximize profits, or in many cases, just to stay in business. And it's the same scenario in other dairy regions such as New England, the Pacific Northwest, and California, which likely pioneered that business model decades ago (It's been the number one dairy producer since 1993 -- as crazy as that sounds given their water problems).

    http://www.marketplace.org/2015/11/11/economy/immigrant-workers-help-save-wisconsin-dairy-farms

    In Canada, dairy farming is subject to supply management principles which cap milk production and apportion planned output to many individual farms, thereby ensuring profitability. Import tariffs stop price undercutting but lead to relatively higher prices for consumers. Herd size is almost half the US average, so it's likely that the Canadian dairy industry is considerably less dependent on perpetual access to poor laborers from abroad, though I'm sure that there are plenty of foreign farm workers there too.

    This Wikipedia article gives an overview though it's been flagged for neutrality issues, probably because of its critical tone.
  103. @iSteveFan
    Has St Louis been adversely affected by Ferguson and related issues? I understand St Louis County is where the people with means have moved, and St Louis city is where the stadium is. Is the city that bad? Would they have had a better chance if they had a stadium in the suburbs?

    The city of St. Louis proper is separate from St. Louis County, and has been since the 1870s. White flight from the city itself goes back before WWII, and one describes one’s location as North, West, or South County, with the city proper being where “East” County would be.

    Traditionally, South County was Jewish and affluent-liberal, North County being white working class and West County going from old growth suburban to exurban and hobby farms, the Spirit of St. Louis Airport (as opposed to Lambert, a GA/corporate facility) and a large correctional facility for youth offenders. North County has, as you see at Ferguson, gotten much more black in recent years.

    As compared to other southern Midwest cities, STL is more industrial and much more East Coast-like. It was historically a strong union town, which led to things like really strict building codes and restaurants with the toughest health inspectors in the US, but that has abated somewhat.

    I expect that they will get another NFL team if only because of the influence of the beer industry.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    South County is largely German Christian. Jews live in Mid County from the Central West End (western end of the city) west to Chesterfield. Places like Clayton, Ladue, University City, Olivette, Creve Coeur.
  104. “Submit to our extortionate demand for a taxpayer-subsidized superstadium or we’re relocating to giant Los Angeles!”

    
Steve, check your sources. No public money will be used to build the Inglewood Stadium.

    “An NFL team is a natural monopoly.”

    Like ALL professional sports. So what.

    “Not that I’d expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd.”



    Dave Pinsen, just once leave da Joos out of your posts.

    “We Anglo-Americans could use a little more Germanism in these times.”



    The Anti-Gnostic, YOU need it. And its white Americans, not Anglo-Americans.

    “The Green Bay “ownership” is a scam. Basically a PR move to part smug self satisfied Wisconsinites part with their money. When you buy a “share” in the Packers you are basically buying a decorative certificate for your rumpus room, since that share does not entitle you to dividends or a voting stake in any decision the Packers make.”



    415 Reasons is undoubtedly a disgruntled Bears fan.

    “Reading this makes me happy. This is the kind of world I want to live in – an orderly world where, in a sense, success and wealth are “spread around”, not by the force or arbitrariness of government, but by cooperation among individuals who share a common sense of purpose, community, and cooperation.”



    Anonymous, you mean like this group…

    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=7586

    “The Toronto-based Islamic Housing Cooperative (IHC) – also known as the Islamic Cooperative Housing Corporation – was established by Muhammad D. Khalid in 1981 to help Muslims in North America purchase homes while adhering to Islamic Law’s prohibition against the payment of interest, known in Arabic as riba. IHC is set up as a cooperative, where members buy shares in a single equity pool. Once a member has accumulated enough shares to cover at least 25 % of a home’s purchase price, the co-op buys the house on behalf of that member. Thereafter, the member and his family live in the home while paying the co-op a fixed sum of money each month, including a 20% administration fee, until the debt is paid off in its entirety. At that point, the property’s title is transferred to the buyer. As of 2005, IHC had sold $30 million in shares and had purchased housing units for 495 Muslim families.”

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    • Replies: @slumber_j

    “Submit to our extortionate demand for a taxpayer-subsidized superstadium or we’re relocating to giant Los Angeles!”

    
Steve, check your sources. No public money will be used to build the Inglewood Stadium.
     
    Not to bring the Jews into this, but check your head as The Beastie Boys said: nowhere does he say that it will. I won't bother with the rest of your excrescence, except to say that the trolling is tiresome enough that I won't be reading any more of it.
  105. @Anonymous
    "This college video practically says “white males not welcome” The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning."

    Wow. Once they start talking about the "new world" they show almost no white men. Unbelievable.

    Videos such as this one should really be a wake-up call to white men in this country. Don't they care about their children's futures? Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don't they care about their sons' futures?

    Yes, how dare ONE college video shows people other than white males. What an outrage! I mean, white men don’t even have a prayer anymore with jobs, or girls, or, in fact, anything. Might as well MGTOW, right?

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  106. @Marc
    St. Louis is surprisingly bad. I stayed there over Thanksgiving weekend and was surprised by the "Escape from the New York" vibe all over the Downtown. It was sketchier than downtown Memphis.

    No sane white people live in the city itself. West and South County are pretty nice.

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  107. @Jermaine
    FC Barcelona is my favorite example of this. Its' members have real power. They elect the President and vote on all major decisions. Furthermore, the member structure is inevitably dominated by those with deep roots in Catalonia. Generally, you can only become a member of FC Barcelona through a familial connection (e.g., your father is a member and your grandfather was a member before him). This has led to the club becoming a strong part of Catalan identity, because of its domination by old stock Catalans. (Ethnic or "pre-Franco" Catalans are less than 40% of Catalonia's population).

    It’d be nice to have something like that in the U.S.

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  108. @415 reasons
    The Green Bay "ownership" is a scam. Basically a PR move to part smug self satisfied Wisconsinites part with their money. When you buy a "share" in the Packers you are basically buying a decorative certificate for your rumpus room, since that share does not entitle you to dividends or a voting stake in any decision the Packers make.

    So basically a scam preying upon idiot football fans like all the rest except at least it has the benefit of directly scamming cash from fans a la a Nigerian email scam and leaving non-fans alone.

    http://deadspin.com/5866292/the-feel-good-scam-of-owning-the-packers

    Better than team owners though.

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  109. @meh

    “This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery” I looked up the players in both teams. More than half did not strike me as “German thing. . .Scots-Irish.” When we have a team that is 100% of these two, then write about it. Who cares about a bunch of black football players.
     
    Talk about missing the point. Steve was talking about the way the business was organized (team ownership), not who the hired help was (the players).

    Forming coops so that a monopoly is avoided and everyone benefits is very German; allowing one tiny family to form a monopoly at everyone else's expense, because they don't know how to cooperate, is very Anglo/Scots-Irish.

    Please stop telling Steve what to write about. It's his blog. No one forced you to come here. Given your lousy reading comprehension, this blog is not doing you any good anyway.

    Most of the world can’t cooperate. Family-based monopolies are pretty standard in most of the world. The Scandanavian cooperativeness is a unique quality.

    By the way, most of us are football fans.

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  110. @Milo Minderbinder
    OT -

    I know Steve has occasionally posted about Uber.

    http://uberpeople.net/threads/30-cents-a-mile-how-on-earth.53488/

    The mileage rate for drivers in Detroit has been cut to $.30. To give an idea just how low this is the IRS Mileage Depreciation rate for 2016 is $.54.

    No way anyone driving for 30 cents a mile is going to be able to afford basic mainainence on their vehicle. I expect to see even more immigrants piled in 6 to an apartments and driving beaters working for Uber as the pay is so low it doesn't make sense for anyone else.

    It seems like Uber is exploiting the sunk cost nonfallacy: you already own a car, so it’s worth getting $0.30 per mile, even though you couldn’t make a going concern out of it.

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  111. @I, Libertine
    When the Wilpons were making sotta voce noises about taking the Mets elsewhere during the negotiations that resulted in "Citi"field, I thought about going All Packers about sports franchises.

    Maybe that's the answer. My father and my uncles never - never- got over the loss of the Dodgers. It hurt them almost as much as the loss of a child.

    I hate socialism, but. . .

    When the Wilpons were making sotta voce noises about taking the Mets elsewhere during the negotiations that resulted in “Citi”field, I thought about going All Packers about sports franchises.

    Not satisfied with the huge public subsidies for Citifield, the Wilpons are now trying to get the city to use taxpayer money to improve the stadiums surrounding by condemning and demolishing Willets Point. It’s a collection of mainly ramshackle buildings on rutted, often flood-prone streets just east of the stadium, housing auto repair shops, junkyards, light industries, and other small businesses. Like something you’d see in Calcutta, which no doubt is where some of the business owners are from.
    While Willets Point is unsightly, it provides hundreds of jobs and useful services such as affordable car repairs. Unfortunately it offends the Wilpons’ delicate sensitivities and therefore has to go.

    Peter

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  112. @Hibernian
    They would be the Los Angeles Packers were it not for Lombardi. "Gentlemen, this is a football"

    You’re confusing Lonbardi with Lambeau:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers,_Inc.

    Lombardi was in Brooklyn kneepants when the structure was set up that makes the Acme Meat Packers the only club in any major league that can’t move to LA.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    Reg
    If you have the time to read a good book about Vince Lombardi and his times.
    "When Pride Still Mattered" Peak USA of course.
    http://www.amazon.com/When-Pride-Still-Mattered-Lombardi/dp/0684870185
    , @Hibernian
    Lambeau Field was built in 1956. Lombardi started coaching the Packers in 1959; he coached them to a division title in 1960, and the first of 4 league titles in 1961. (The Lombardi Pack also won Super Bowls I and II.) Sure, Curly Lambeau was the closest thing green Bay had to a George Halas, but after he left the Pack in the early '50s, they were very much at risk, and the new stadium didn't get them out of the woods. That required a great coach, Lombardi. I don't think the community ownership structure would have prevented the NFL from seizing the franchise and awarding it elsewhere; as it was , the Pack were nearly forced to move to Milwaukee.
  113. The NFL is facing the same problem as the USA as a whole: running out of whites. LA team will flop. Football fans, such as exist, already have USC/UCLA. I’m a Bills fan and watching the sale of the team tells me the NFL and other potential owners know this. There will never be a successful team in Toronto, because cricket would be a better fit.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    We live in LA and don't give a damn a out the nfl returning here. We will not bring taking our kids to an nfl game here or anywhere. We don't need to spend our money on yet another opportunity to worship the Africans.
  114. This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do…

    Steve Jobs was half Wisconsin German, both by nature (birth mother) and nurture (adoptive father). He didn’t play nice himself, but he sure got others to.

    The Pack itself had no German parentage. The founders were Curly Lambeau, a son of Walloon immigrants, and George Whitney Calhoun who, as his name suggests, was of Scots-Irish and Yankee heritage.

    Calhoun is related to Ivers Whitney Adams, founder of the Braves, the oldest team in Major League Baseball, and Joan Whitney Payson, who brought the National League back to New York with the Mets.

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    • Replies: @5371
    [Steve Jobs was half Wisconsin German]

    And at least half cunning Arab asshole.
  115. @Reg Cæsar

    This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do…
     
    Steve Jobs was half Wisconsin German, both by nature (birth mother) and nurture (adoptive father). He didn't play nice himself, but he sure got others to.

    The Pack itself had no German parentage. The founders were Curly Lambeau, a son of Walloon immigrants, and George Whitney Calhoun who, as his name suggests, was of Scots-Irish and Yankee heritage.

    Calhoun is related to Ivers Whitney Adams, founder of the Braves, the oldest team in Major League Baseball, and Joan Whitney Payson, who brought the National League back to New York with the Mets.

    [Steve Jobs was half Wisconsin German]

    And at least half cunning Arab asshole.

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  116. @Reg Cæsar
    You're confusing Lonbardi with Lambeau:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers,_Inc.

    Lombardi was in Brooklyn kneepants when the structure was set up that makes the Acme Meat Packers the only club in any major league that can't move to LA.

    Reg
    If you have the time to read a good book about Vince Lombardi and his times.
    “When Pride Still Mattered” Peak USA of course.

    http://www.amazon.com/When-Pride-Still-Mattered-Lombardi/dp/0684870185

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    I don't have the time. But I married into Cheesehood, so my in-laws will fill me in.

    Best thing about Lombardi's day was that baseball was still on top. Peak diamond.
    , @AlexT
    Great book!
  117. @Barnard

    There’s actually a good reason why the Green Bay Packers are everybody’s third or fourth favorite NFL team.
     
    I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Most of the fan bases of other NFC teams do not like the Packers at all.

    I agree with the rest your comments on the Packers, what they have done in Green Bay, both in terms of the public ownership and the ability to support a franchise in such a small metro area could not have been replicated anywhere else in the country.

    Giants fan here. And the Packers are who I root for when the Giants are no longer in the running.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Giants fan here. And the Packers are who I root for when the Giants are no longer in the running.
     
    Same here. These teams are among the few that have never sunk to the level of a cheerleading squad. Something to be proud of. The Pack lets a local school do their cheers.
    , @David In TN
    When the Packers played the Chiefs in Super Bowl I, most of the country was rooting for the Packers. The Kansas City Chiefs had no national appeal. They didn't even have an underdog sympathy factor.
  118. @Horseball
    The NFL is facing the same problem as the USA as a whole: running out of whites. LA team will flop. Football fans, such as exist, already have USC/UCLA. I'm a Bills fan and watching the sale of the team tells me the NFL and other potential owners know this. There will never be a successful team in Toronto, because cricket would be a better fit.

    We live in LA and don’t give a damn a out the nfl returning here. We will not bring taking our kids to an nfl game here or anywhere. We don’t need to spend our money on yet another opportunity to worship the Africans.

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  119. @Clyde
    Reg
    If you have the time to read a good book about Vince Lombardi and his times.
    "When Pride Still Mattered" Peak USA of course.
    http://www.amazon.com/When-Pride-Still-Mattered-Lombardi/dp/0684870185

    I don’t have the time. But I married into Cheesehood, so my in-laws will fill me in.

    Best thing about Lombardi’s day was that baseball was still on top. Peak diamond.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    Vince Lombardi presided over the baseball to football supremacy crossover. Yes America was a superior nation when baseball was the national pastime meaning (for the young 'uns out there) it was America's number one sport. Circa 1960 with the two Giants-Colts NFL league championship games football started surpassing baseball. I saw one (prolly 59) in a bar/tavern with my father while out on a skiing trip. Johnny Unitas and YA Tittle those kind of post WW2 men are not coming back again......
  120. @RadicalCenter
    Giants fan here. And the Packers are who I root for when the Giants are no longer in the running.

    Giants fan here. And the Packers are who I root for when the Giants are no longer in the running.

    Same here. These teams are among the few that have never sunk to the level of a cheerleading squad. Something to be proud of. The Pack lets a local school do their cheers.

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    • Replies: @ron mexico
    The Lions do the same, but on field results are not the same and tv ratings nowhere near GB or NYG.
  121. @The Last Real Calvinist
    I just listened to the latest Bill Simmons podcast, on which he and his bestie Malcolm Gladwell discuss the Rams' move to LA at length.

    Not much of great interest as per the content, but I was struck by how the dynamic between Simmons and Gladwell has shifted over the years. When Gladwell first appeared on Simmons's then-espn-based BS Report podcast, Simmons was in awestruck worshipful fanboy mode.

    Simmons is now in full control of his own media niche, and it showed in this latest podcast. Simmons was running the show and throwing out the ideas, and Gladwell was reduced to more or less playing straight man.

    Gladwell’s reputation has taken a big hit from what i understand. I have a feeling it originated from MSM hacks reading a lot of iSteve.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    By the way, my vague perception is that criticism has made Gladwell better in recent years. I should probably read up on his recent stuff to see if I can write an "Is Malcolm Gladwell Underrated?" article.
  122. @Clyde
    Reg
    If you have the time to read a good book about Vince Lombardi and his times.
    "When Pride Still Mattered" Peak USA of course.
    http://www.amazon.com/When-Pride-Still-Mattered-Lombardi/dp/0684870185

    Great book!

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  123. @Anon
    Both packers and rams would be perfect in SF.

    Great comment!

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  124. @AlexT
    Gladwell's reputation has taken a big hit from what i understand. I have a feeling it originated from MSM hacks reading a lot of iSteve.

    By the way, my vague perception is that criticism has made Gladwell better in recent years. I should probably read up on his recent stuff to see if I can write an “Is Malcolm Gladwell Underrated?” article.

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  125. @Reg Cæsar

    Giants fan here. And the Packers are who I root for when the Giants are no longer in the running.
     
    Same here. These teams are among the few that have never sunk to the level of a cheerleading squad. Something to be proud of. The Pack lets a local school do their cheers.

    The Lions do the same, but on field results are not the same and tv ratings nowhere near GB or NYG.

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  126. @Former Darfur
    The city of St. Louis proper is separate from St. Louis County, and has been since the 1870s. White flight from the city itself goes back before WWII, and one describes one's location as North, West, or South County, with the city proper being where "East" County would be.

    Traditionally, South County was Jewish and affluent-liberal, North County being white working class and West County going from old growth suburban to exurban and hobby farms, the Spirit of St. Louis Airport (as opposed to Lambert, a GA/corporate facility) and a large correctional facility for youth offenders. North County has, as you see at Ferguson, gotten much more black in recent years.

    As compared to other southern Midwest cities, STL is more industrial and much more East Coast-like. It was historically a strong union town, which led to things like really strict building codes and restaurants with the toughest health inspectors in the US, but that has abated somewhat.

    I expect that they will get another NFL team if only because of the influence of the beer industry.

    South County is largely German Christian. Jews live in Mid County from the Central West End (western end of the city) west to Chesterfield. Places like Clayton, Ladue, University City, Olivette, Creve Coeur.

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  127. @Prof. Woland
    The NFL television revenue sharing was aimed at two teams, the SF 49ers and the Dallas Cowboys. That and the salary cap sufficiently hobbled them to where we regularly lose to Arizona and Seattle now. Ugh.

    Pete Rozelle introduced revenue sharing among NFL teams in 1960 , before Dallas or San Fran had teams…

    One of Rozelle’s early accomplishments was having the league adopt profit-sharing of gate and television revenues. The revenue-sharing was a major factor in stabilizing the NFL and guaranteeing the success of its small-market teams. Without this change in 1960 the Packers would have disbanded before the first Super Bowl.

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    • Replies: @Marty
    SF 49'rs joined the NFL in 1949.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    Wisconsin is not a "small market".
  128. Yes to football in Los Angeles.

    We need a balanced sporting diet. Baseball and soccer for Hispanics. Ping pong, pool, and esports for Asians. Basketball and football for blacks. X and snow games for whites.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Baseball, once lovingly called America's national pastime, is definitely a sport for civilized, patriotic European-Americans.

    Our family enjoys baseball and hockey, and indeed the Africans and African-worshippers can keep basketball and football, both pro and college.

    Asians, especially those born in the USA -- which is most of the Asians here -- don't give a damn about ping pong and would laugh to see that written.

    Mexicans love love love the NFL, both here in Los Angeles and elsewhere, including at least northern Mexico itself. I've seen plenty of Mexicans / Mexican-Americans wearing nfl gear, especially Cowboys in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, in places nowhere near Dallas. And our Mexican neighbor can be heard screaming and whooping loudly like a freaking retard for hours on end as he and his moron buddies watch nfl.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    Spelling Bees for Indians.
    Jihad games for Pakis.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    We need a balanced sporting diet. Baseball and soccer for Hispanics. Ping pong, pool, and esports for Asians. Basketball and football for blacks. X and snow games for whites.
     
    Don't forget taharrush gamea for the "Syrians"!
  129. @Hacienda
    Yes to football in Los Angeles.

    We need a balanced sporting diet. Baseball and soccer for Hispanics. Ping pong, pool, and esports for Asians. Basketball and football for blacks. X and snow games for whites.

    Baseball, once lovingly called America’s national pastime, is definitely a sport for civilized, patriotic European-Americans.

    Our family enjoys baseball and hockey, and indeed the Africans and African-worshippers can keep basketball and football, both pro and college.

    Asians, especially those born in the USA — which is most of the Asians here — don’t give a damn about ping pong and would laugh to see that written.

    Mexicans love love love the NFL, both here in Los Angeles and elsewhere, including at least northern Mexico itself. I’ve seen plenty of Mexicans / Mexican-Americans wearing nfl gear, especially Cowboys in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, in places nowhere near Dallas. And our Mexican neighbor can be heard screaming and whooping loudly like a freaking retard for hours on end as he and his moron buddies watch nfl.

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    • Replies: @black sea
    "Football combines the two worst things about America: it is violence punctuated by committee meetings."
    -- George Will
  130. @whorefinder
    Of course, Green Bay is marvelously helped by the fact that it's kept out any competing franchise in Milwaukee or the state of Wisconsin in general. This, too, is a monopoly, although it's definitely not a natural one. This allowed Green Bay---which went through a lot of lean years---to remain "beloved"; there was simply no other team for locals to root for (whattaya gonna do, root for Minnesota?? Chicago??)

    This is similar teams in New England. Since the Braves left Boston in the 1950s, there was been a 1-team per sport mentality for all major sports. All 4 teams have chased out any hint of a competing franchise for the region. A few years ago the idea was floated that MLB's Montreal Expos could move to Boston and set up shop as the local National league franchise. The response in polls was overwhelmingly positive (upwards of 70-80% of local fans were ecstatic, being baseball nuts), but the Red Sox thoroughly quashed the Expos coming in (they eventually went to DC and became the Nationals). The local market was too lucrative to share. The other 3 major franchises have done the same.

    There is, however, a silver lining to this self-enforced-monoply.

    Since all of New England is beholden to those 4 teams (minus the bottom half of Connecticut, which is a suburb of New York and roots for NY teams), this creates huge leverage for the region against the teams. Unlike some of their MLB counterparts, the Red Sox couldn't force the city or state to build them a new stadium, since they couldn't honestly threaten to leave ("where else will you be the only team in a major town that sells out games even in losing seasons?"); as a result, the Sox had to merely upgrade old Fenway park. Similarly, the Patriots have long threatened to move---it was St. Louis back in the early 90s (before the Rams moved there), and then it was Hartford. Nobody bit; nobody bought that the Pats would leave a perfect situation fan-wise for a more competitive market (In Hartford, they compete with NY teams; in St. Louis, the Chiefs).

    So, in conclusion, local monopolies can actually backfire in part on the local monopoly holders.

    Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me, but it seemed dumb at the time (for the reasons listed above why the New England teams won't leave New England), and it seems like they're fixing their mistake. Good for LA for not selling themselves out to keep them or the Raiders.

    It allows said teams treat their fans with contempt and build/maintain cheap econo-boxes for stadia. The TD Garden being a foremost example of that, thanks to the cheapest owner in professional sports, while the Red $ox continue to polish the turd that is Fenway Park. It speaks to the parochial, second city vibe in Boston when the Yankee$ can replace YANKEE FREAKING STADIUM but Fenway is untouchable. Keep paying the highest average ticket prices in MLB, suckers.

    I’m a former $ox season ticket holder, and I haven’t been to Fenway to see a baseball game in 10 years. It’s the single most uncomfortable place in America to watch a sporting event.

    Meanwhile, you have Bob Kraft essentially building his own place for the Patriots. He bought the team for $175 million and they’re now allegedly worth $2.6 billion. Sounds like a sound business decision to me!

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    when the Yankee$ can replace YANKEE FREAKING STADIUM but Fenway is untouchable

    Get your facts straight, angry man. The Yankees didn't replace Yankee Stadium; NYC taxpayers did. That was a fleecing of the citizenry. As was the Mets stadium. The majority of the costs were footed by the taxpayers. http://www.fieldofschemes.com/documents/Yanks-Mets-costs.pdf

    The current Red Sox owners don't want to be playing in Fenway Park, but they also don't want to build their own new park. They tried to extort the money for a new park from Boston the same way the Yankees and Mets did but Boston told them to go screw---for exactly the reasons I mentioned: where else could they go and have such a sweet deal as the biggest/ only baseball draw in a major baseball-loving region?

    And to your point: fans really really like Fenway Park. The owners fixed it up best they could, and put in a lot of new amenities---the Monster Seats, the closing down of Yawkey Way during games and having street fairs the fans could go to between innings. People now go on tours there.

    You may not like it, but the majority of the people---both Bostonians and tourists---think it's the cat's meow. Democracy speaks on that one. Plenty of people took your season tickets with glee.

    As to TD Garden---yes, it's soulless, but unlike baseball stadiums, hockey/basketball stadiums have never really been architectural masterpieces to behold; they are merely large gyms for multiple events per week, and TD Garden was also a product of the architecture of it's time. And additionally, the old Garden sucked balls; it's one saving grace was the closeness to the action (due to it being built as a boxing facility, so the seats were much closer to the action that other hockey/basketball arenas). The championship aura of the Celtics and Bobby Orr Bruins helped people forget it's shortcomings. But it had no AC and the locker rooms were a joke for modern athletes.

    In conclusion, lighten up, Francis.
  131. @Anonymous

    This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do, so whoever can finally put together a big company gets ungodly rich (e.g., the Waltons of the Ozarks).
     
    Steve you should check this book out about the Basset Furniture clan. lot of backstory besides the main points.

    Factory Man: How One Furniture Maker Battled Offshoring, Stayed Local - and Helped Save an American Town

    I second the recommendation. JB III did well and did good.

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  132. @Hacienda
    Yes to football in Los Angeles.

    We need a balanced sporting diet. Baseball and soccer for Hispanics. Ping pong, pool, and esports for Asians. Basketball and football for blacks. X and snow games for whites.

    Spelling Bees for Indians.
    Jihad games for Pakis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hacienda
    It's all about Donald these dayz. Tis a real shame.
  133. @Reg Cæsar
    I don't have the time. But I married into Cheesehood, so my in-laws will fill me in.

    Best thing about Lombardi's day was that baseball was still on top. Peak diamond.

    Vince Lombardi presided over the baseball to football supremacy crossover. Yes America was a superior nation when baseball was the national pastime meaning (for the young ‘uns out there) it was America’s number one sport. Circa 1960 with the two Giants-Colts NFL league championship games football started surpassing baseball. I saw one (prolly 59) in a bar/tavern with my father while out on a skiing trip. Johnny Unitas and YA Tittle those kind of post WW2 men are not coming back again……

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    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    Incredible as it may seem today, many NFL players of that era worked second jobs during the off season.

    On the baseball side, I've read that Stan Musial used to take the bus to go back home from the ballpark after an afternoon game.

    You're right: those men aren't coming back and America was a better nation.
  134. @Corvinus
    “Submit to our extortionate demand for a taxpayer-subsidized superstadium or we’re relocating to giant Los Angeles!”

    
Steve, check your sources. No public money will be used to build the Inglewood Stadium.

    “An NFL team is a natural monopoly.”

    Like ALL professional sports. So what.

    “Not that I’d expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd.”



    Dave Pinsen, just once leave da Joos out of your posts.

    “We Anglo-Americans could use a little more Germanism in these times.”



    The Anti-Gnostic, YOU need it. And its white Americans, not Anglo-Americans.

    “The Green Bay “ownership” is a scam. Basically a PR move to part smug self satisfied Wisconsinites part with their money. When you buy a “share” in the Packers you are basically buying a decorative certificate for your rumpus room, since that share does not entitle you to dividends or a voting stake in any decision the Packers make.”



    415 Reasons is undoubtedly a disgruntled Bears fan.

    “Reading this makes me happy. This is the kind of world I want to live in – an orderly world where, in a sense, success and wealth are “spread around”, not by the force or arbitrariness of government, but by cooperation among individuals who share a common sense of purpose, community, and cooperation.”



    Anonymous, you mean like this group…

    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=7586

    “The Toronto-based Islamic Housing Cooperative (IHC) – also known as the Islamic Cooperative Housing Corporation – was established by Muhammad D. Khalid in 1981 to help Muslims in North America purchase homes while adhering to Islamic Law's prohibition against the payment of interest, known in Arabic as riba. IHC is set up as a cooperative, where members buy shares in a single equity pool. Once a member has accumulated enough shares to cover at least 25 % of a home's purchase price, the co-op buys the house on behalf of that member. Thereafter, the member and his family live in the home while paying the co-op a fixed sum of money each month, including a 20% administration fee, until the debt is paid off in its entirety. At that point, the property's title is transferred to the buyer. As of 2005, IHC had sold $30 million in shares and had purchased housing units for 495 Muslim families.”

    “Submit to our extortionate demand for a taxpayer-subsidized superstadium or we’re relocating to giant Los Angeles!”

    
Steve, check your sources. No public money will be used to build the Inglewood Stadium.

    Not to bring the Jews into this, but check your head as The Beastie Boys said: nowhere does he say that it will. I won’t bother with the rest of your excrescence, except to say that the trolling is tiresome enough that I won’t be reading any more of it.

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  135. @penskefile
    This college video practically says "white males not welcome" The contrast between the evil old white men (even marching like soldiers) in the first 25 seconds and the amazing vibrant diversity in the rest is stunning.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYRDEStj8Q

    The University of Houston, former home to Phi Slamma Jamma and whose basketball team was often referred to in Dan Jenkins’ books as the Cougroes. And that was the 80s!

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  136. @Clyde
    Edward Jones Stadium -St Louis
    Broke ground July 13, 1992; 23 years ago
    Opened November 12, 1995; 20 years ago
    Construction cost $280 million

    So the Rams return to LA and their new stadium is going to cost 1.9 billion. It will be stacked with luxury seating and skyboxes to bring in revenue that is not shared with other NFL teams. All TV revenue is shared.

    Shea Stadium (NY Mets) was built for 15-25 million back around 1970. Surely with all private funding.
    The Mets new replacement stadium cost one billion a few years ago and the taxpayers were forced to fund some of it


    The $850 million baseball park (2009) was funded with $615 million in public subsides,[6] including the sale of New York City municipal bonds which are to be repaid by the Mets plus interest. The payments will offset property taxes for the lifetime of the park.[7][8] The Mets are receiving $20 million annually from Citibank in exchange for naming the stadium Citi Field. The entire public cost is being borne by city and state taxpayers in New York.
     

    Shea was publicly funded. Robert Moses wanted the Dodgers to play in a publicly funded stadium in Flushing Meadows. Walter O’Malley Took theland offered by LA County along with the Chicano removal and never looked back. Neil Sullivans The Dodgers Move West is a really good book about the subject ,

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    Shea was publicly funded.
     
    I goofed on that and thanks. But the public funding was small compared to today's robberies of the public treasury.
  137. @Travis
    I wish they had a law which outlawed using taxpayer funds for stadiums......the NFL should be treated like a religion , thus the separation of church and state would prohibit taxing me to fund their cathedrals.

    Will be interesting to see if the Rams will be able to attract fans, as they were unable to attract fans 22 years ago....seems like they will face the same challenges again in LA, lack of fan support unless the team becomes a playoff contender..

    The Rams will do better this time because the ownership is better. Georgia Frontiere ran the franchise into the ground, first by moving out of the Coliseum into Anaheim Stadium (not a good fotball watching stadium), then trying to extort money from the city. The fans turned on the Rams – the front office wasn’t doing what they needed to do to build a strong team. They sucked, really. When they announced they were leaving for greener (?) pastures in STL, the fans here just packed it in. There were barely 20K in the stands for their final home game.

    Mention Georgia Frontiere to long time fans here in So Cal and their heads explode.

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  138. @JohnnyWalker123
    Spelling Bees for Indians.
    Jihad games for Pakis.

    It’s all about Donald these dayz. Tis a real shame.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    When Donald becomes president, no more Jihad games for Pakis.
  139. @Reg Cæsar

    Off-topic,

    Quentin Tarantino really likes John Brown...
     

    Back on topic: John Y Brown owned the Kentucky Colonels, one of the strongest franchises in the American Basketball Association. Unlike their Indiana rivals, Brown chose not to pay the Danegeld or whatever to get into the NBA. Pro ball has never returned to Louisville.

    The Spirits of St Louis, though, probably made the biggest killing in US sports history. As part of their settlement with the leagues, the Spirits (which had merged with the much more popular Utah Stars late in the final season, but continued to play in St Louis), or rather their owners, were entitled to one-seventh of the future revenue of the four ABA teams which survived the Pacman-style "merger", the Spurs, Nets, Nuggets and Pacers.

    I don't know why the Colonels and the Virginia Squires didn't get in on the swag. Someone in St Louis is cleaning up on those black Nets caps now in fashion.

    John Y. Brown, the man whose stupidity almost drove Red Auerbach out of basketball! Thank God Harry Mangurian bought him out after one season!

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  140. @Anonymous

    Similarly, if you drive around the Wisconsin countryside, you’ll notice it’s full of prosperous, well-tended family farms. One reason for this is that Wisconsin dairy farmers figured out a long time ago that milk-buying was something of a natural monopoly, so whoever wound up owning the trucks that drive around and pick up the milk everyday would make the lion’s share of the profits from the dairy industry. So, the farmers set up co-ops they jointly own to do the milk marketing for them.

    This is kind of a German thing. Americans, especially the Scots-Irish, tend to be too ornery to play nice with each other the way Wisconsin dairy farmers and Packers fans do, so whoever can finally put together a big company gets ungodly rich (e.g., the Waltons of the Ozarks).
     
    Reading this makes me happy. This is the kind of world I want to live in - an orderly world where, in a sense, success and wealth are "spread around", not by the force or arbitrariness of government, but by cooperation among individuals who share a common sense of purpose, community, and cooperation.

    There are agricultural and dairy cooperatives in other parts of the country as well, even in places like Oklahoma. Some are very old and actually represent the consolidation of even earlier, farmer-owned creameries and collectives.

    Steve is knowledgeable about a surprisingly wide range of topics, but he can’t know everything. Occasionally, I’m reminded of Michael Crichton’s “Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect” (which I learned about here), though I think it’s a little strong to describe Steve’s writing, most of which is very good. Inaccurate information leads to inaccurate conclusions and that’s why corrections matter.

    Here’s enough dairy coop info to completely sour you:

    http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/info/dairy/history.pdf

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  141. @JohnnyWalker123
    You can get that type of community through the following conditions:

    -Tight labor market
    -High human capital population
    -High trust and civic mindedness
    -Local devolution of power
    -Ethnic homogenity

    That basically means living in a rural area with lots of Scandanavian people.

    “Family farms” in Wisconsin are often highly dependent on immigrant laborers (frequently illegal) to maximize profits, or in many cases, just to stay in business. And it’s the same scenario in other dairy regions such as New England, the Pacific Northwest, and California, which likely pioneered that business model decades ago (It’s been the number one dairy producer since 1993 — as crazy as that sounds given their water problems).

    http://www.marketplace.org/2015/11/11/economy/immigrant-workers-help-save-wisconsin-dairy-farms

    In Canada, dairy farming is subject to supply management principles which cap milk production and apportion planned output to many individual farms, thereby ensuring profitability. Import tariffs stop price undercutting but lead to relatively higher prices for consumers. Herd size is almost half the US average, so it’s likely that the Canadian dairy industry is considerably less dependent on perpetual access to poor laborers from abroad, though I’m sure that there are plenty of foreign farm workers there too.

    This Wikipedia article gives an overview though it’s been flagged for neutrality issues, probably because of its critical tone.

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  142. @Anonymous
    "Do they want their daughters living in a world where, in terms of marriage prospects, white men are at the back of the bus and have diminished career opportunities? Don’t they care about their sons’ futures?"

    Perhaps the purpose of all of this anti-white male-ism is to drive white women into the arms of "men of color", who in this brave new world will have significantly better career prospects than white man.

    Encouraging miscegenation through financial incentive ... because propaganda alone might not be enough.

    White women aren’t nearly the mercenary, status-obsessed gold diggers that Asian or Jewish women are. They’d rather be the main breadwinner or be alone than marry men of color. Besides, men in trades can earn very decent money. The hottie stud with a tool belt is a female fantasy stereotype for a reason.

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  143. @Brutusale
    It allows said teams treat their fans with contempt and build/maintain cheap econo-boxes for stadia. The TD Garden being a foremost example of that, thanks to the cheapest owner in professional sports, while the Red $ox continue to polish the turd that is Fenway Park. It speaks to the parochial, second city vibe in Boston when the Yankee$ can replace YANKEE FREAKING STADIUM but Fenway is untouchable. Keep paying the highest average ticket prices in MLB, suckers.

    I'm a former $ox season ticket holder, and I haven't been to Fenway to see a baseball game in 10 years. It's the single most uncomfortable place in America to watch a sporting event.

    Meanwhile, you have Bob Kraft essentially building his own place for the Patriots. He bought the team for $175 million and they're now allegedly worth $2.6 billion. Sounds like a sound business decision to me!

    when the Yankee$ can replace YANKEE FREAKING STADIUM but Fenway is untouchable

    Get your facts straight, angry man. The Yankees didn’t replace Yankee Stadium; NYC taxpayers did. That was a fleecing of the citizenry. As was the Mets stadium. The majority of the costs were footed by the taxpayers. http://www.fieldofschemes.com/documents/Yanks-Mets-costs.pdf

    The current Red Sox owners don’t want to be playing in Fenway Park, but they also don’t want to build their own new park. They tried to extort the money for a new park from Boston the same way the Yankees and Mets did but Boston told them to go screw—for exactly the reasons I mentioned: where else could they go and have such a sweet deal as the biggest/ only baseball draw in a major baseball-loving region?

    And to your point: fans really really like Fenway Park. The owners fixed it up best they could, and put in a lot of new amenities—the Monster Seats, the closing down of Yawkey Way during games and having street fairs the fans could go to between innings. People now go on tours there.

    You may not like it, but the majority of the people—both Bostonians and tourists—think it’s the cat’s meow. Democracy speaks on that one. Plenty of people took your season tickets with glee.

    As to TD Garden—yes, it’s soulless, but unlike baseball stadiums, hockey/basketball stadiums have never really been architectural masterpieces to behold; they are merely large gyms for multiple events per week, and TD Garden was also a product of the architecture of it’s time. And additionally, the old Garden sucked balls; it’s one saving grace was the closeness to the action (due to it being built as a boxing facility, so the seats were much closer to the action that other hockey/basketball arenas). The championship aura of the Celtics and Bobby Orr Bruins helped people forget it’s shortcomings. But it had no AC and the locker rooms were a joke for modern athletes.

    In conclusion, lighten up, Francis.

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    • Replies: @ganderson
    The old Garden and Chicago Stadium were very similar- built at nearly the same time, and I think by the same company. The balcony seats were right over the ice- a great place to watch a game. Lotta bad seats, though. As for basketball, WHO CARES? As the great John Mariucci once put it- it's like watching old men fish.
    , @Brutusale
    Someone other than the Yankee$ playing in that park? Then I guess it's the Yankee$ park, no matter who paid for it.

    "Lot of new amenities" isn't polishing the turd?

    The reasons you give as prime motivators (athlete's amenities) to replace the old Garden are continued issues at Fenway. You strike me as the average uber-parochial Bostonian; have you taken the tour and seen how decrepit the place really is?

    But things are easy when the city government is in the tank. It'll be interesting to see if the $ox ownership has as easy a time bending Mah-ty over as they did Mumbles.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/10/26/state-report-criticizes-red-sox-deal-with-bra/GMIg1WRap1wLQGHq2MYg2M/story.html

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/11/06/red-sox-reap-from-lansdowne-yawkey-way-lease-deal/Jye8poCiyvBEMOKgsie7qK/story.html

    http://www.wcvb.com/money/bra-red-sox-deal-cost-taxpayers-millions-report-says/36079892

    The city called one of the most popular nightlife destinations in the city "blighted" to give the $ox their sweetheart deal. Even now, they've embarked upon a campaign to kill off Who's On First.

    Three of us left the season ticket package, with the one friend staying in switching to the weekend/holiday package. He cherry picks the games he wants and sells the rest to a ticket broker. Despite your feelings on the matter, the Pink & Green Hat Nation is a bit more fickle than previous generations of fans; $ox tickets were available last year on StubHub for $5.

    Democracy? Given a choice between keeping the park or building a new one and subsidizing a billionaire's toy, I know how I'd vote. Instead, the Boston taxpayers are drained with 1,000 cuts instead of being stabbed in the heart.
  144. @Anonymous
    "There is one black character, but she’s a brilliant assistant US Attorney, not a hedgie."

    Of course she is.

    Speaking of successful black woman, don't you love looking through your college alumni magazines or browsing college or university web sites? Both tend to feature very few photos of young, white men. Those who are featured in photos are often shown participating in theater or music activities (not that there's anything wrong with that) or they're just one person among many, instead of the main focus of the photo. In contrast, there are always lots and lots of close-up photos of women of varying ethnicities shown engaged in "important" activities or photos of non-white men. Also, you will see pictures of older white men (I suppose as a representation of the past, not the future), often shown in conjunction with a non-white male or female student.

    I find this stunning.

    That is just one of several reasons I stopped donating money to my alma mater.

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    • Replies: @EriK
    Me too.

    I knew by name almost all the diversities at my college (3000 students). Not because I was a budding politician, but because there were so few of them at the school. Yet after I got out the pitches for money highlighted the diversity(!) of the school endlessly. Eventually I had enough and stopped donating.
  145. @Travis
    Pete Rozelle introduced revenue sharing among NFL teams in 1960 , before Dallas or San Fran had teams...

    One of Rozelle's early accomplishments was having the league adopt profit-sharing of gate and television revenues. The revenue-sharing was a major factor in stabilizing the NFL and guaranteeing the success of its small-market teams. Without this change in 1960 the Packers would have disbanded before the first Super Bowl.

    SF 49′rs joined the NFL in 1949.

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  146. @Dave Pinsen
    Mentioned this before, but the story arc in the most recent season of the Showtime series Ray Donovan (about a fixer played by Liev Schreiber) was about moving an NFL team to Los Angeles.

    Somewhat tangentially related, there's a new Showtime series called Billions, about hedge funds in New York, which is debuting Sunday. The series is co-created by Andrew Ross Sorkin of the New York Times, who also wrote the book about the financial crisis that was turned into the HBO movie. If you click that link, you'll see a description of the main characters, none of who appear to be Jewish.

    Not that I'd expect all of the characters, or even most of them, to be Jewish, obviously, but none of them being Jewish seemed a little odd. So I asked Sorkin about it, via Twitter, after he said he'd be happy to talk about the show. No response.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/687324986818838528

    The villain is named “Bobby Axelrod” (a fictionalized-enough-to-avoid-a-lawsuit version of Steve Cohen), which you could’ve figured out by watching the show or any of the previews.

    He is played by the not-terribly-Jewish-looking Damian Lewis, but he was most likely cast because of his earlier villainous role on Homeland on the same network.

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  147. @njguy73
    Even though it is referred to as "common stock" in corporate offering documents, a share of Packers stock does not share the same rights traditionally associated with common or preferred stock. It does not include an equity interest, does not pay dividends, can not be traded, has no securities-law protection, and brings no season ticket purchase privileges. All shareholders receive are voting rights, an invitation to the corporation's annual meeting, and an opportunity to purchase exclusive shareholder-only merchandise.[30] Shares of stock cannot be resold, except back to the team for a fraction of the original price. While new shares can be given as gifts, transfers are technically allowed only between immediate family members once ownership has been established.[29]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers#Community_ownership

    Oh my goodness! I never realized!

    I thought Packer management was going to consult with me on team business! I thought I could retire on the dividend I would get for my Packer share!

    I was going to get RICH! I was going to get a free skybox!

    Thank you so much for warning me! What a dastardly scam they are running!

    I feel almost as bad as I did when I bought my Pet Rock a few decades ago and found out … it wasn’t even alive!

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  148. @Jim Don Bob
    That is just one of several reasons I stopped donating money to my alma mater.

    Me too.

    I knew by name almost all the diversities at my college (3000 students). Not because I was a budding politician, but because there were so few of them at the school. Yet after I got out the pitches for money highlighted the diversity(!) of the school endlessly. Eventually I had enough and stopped donating.

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  149. @Travis
    Pete Rozelle introduced revenue sharing among NFL teams in 1960 , before Dallas or San Fran had teams...

    One of Rozelle's early accomplishments was having the league adopt profit-sharing of gate and television revenues. The revenue-sharing was a major factor in stabilizing the NFL and guaranteeing the success of its small-market teams. Without this change in 1960 the Packers would have disbanded before the first Super Bowl.

    Wisconsin is not a “small market”.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Green Bay is. Milwaukee is abouy 100 miles away and it isn't a super large market either; it's no Chicago.
  150. @whorefinder
    when the Yankee$ can replace YANKEE FREAKING STADIUM but Fenway is untouchable

    Get your facts straight, angry man. The Yankees didn't replace Yankee Stadium; NYC taxpayers did. That was a fleecing of the citizenry. As was the Mets stadium. The majority of the costs were footed by the taxpayers. http://www.fieldofschemes.com/documents/Yanks-Mets-costs.pdf

    The current Red Sox owners don't want to be playing in Fenway Park, but they also don't want to build their own new park. They tried to extort the money for a new park from Boston the same way the Yankees and Mets did but Boston told them to go screw---for exactly the reasons I mentioned: where else could they go and have such a sweet deal as the biggest/ only baseball draw in a major baseball-loving region?

    And to your point: fans really really like Fenway Park. The owners fixed it up best they could, and put in a lot of new amenities---the Monster Seats, the closing down of Yawkey Way during games and having street fairs the fans could go to between innings. People now go on tours there.

    You may not like it, but the majority of the people---both Bostonians and tourists---think it's the cat's meow. Democracy speaks on that one. Plenty of people took your season tickets with glee.

    As to TD Garden---yes, it's soulless, but unlike baseball stadiums, hockey/basketball stadiums have never really been architectural masterpieces to behold; they are merely large gyms for multiple events per week, and TD Garden was also a product of the architecture of it's time. And additionally, the old Garden sucked balls; it's one saving grace was the closeness to the action (due to it being built as a boxing facility, so the seats were much closer to the action that other hockey/basketball arenas). The championship aura of the Celtics and Bobby Orr Bruins helped people forget it's shortcomings. But it had no AC and the locker rooms were a joke for modern athletes.

    In conclusion, lighten up, Francis.

    The old Garden and Chicago Stadium were very similar- built at nearly the same time, and I think by the same company. The balcony seats were right over the ice- a great place to watch a game. Lotta bad seats, though. As for basketball, WHO CARES? As the great John Mariucci once put it- it’s like watching old men fish.

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  151. @Hacienda
    Yes to football in Los Angeles.

    We need a balanced sporting diet. Baseball and soccer for Hispanics. Ping pong, pool, and esports for Asians. Basketball and football for blacks. X and snow games for whites.

    We need a balanced sporting diet. Baseball and soccer for Hispanics. Ping pong, pool, and esports for Asians. Basketball and football for blacks. X and snow games for whites.

    Don’t forget taharrush gamea for the “Syrians”!

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  152. @Hacienda
    It's all about Donald these dayz. Tis a real shame.

    When Donald becomes president, no more Jihad games for Pakis.

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  153. @RadicalCenter
    Giants fan here. And the Packers are who I root for when the Giants are no longer in the running.

    When the Packers played the Chiefs in Super Bowl I, most of the country was rooting for the Packers. The Kansas City Chiefs had no national appeal. They didn’t even have an underdog sympathy factor.

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    • Replies: @ganderson
    Dunno. I'd guess you are right in general, but I'd imagine people in AFL cities were rooting for the Chiefs. New York and the Bay area were the only metro areas with a franchise in both leagues.
  154. @Reg Cæsar
    You're confusing Lonbardi with Lambeau:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers,_Inc.

    Lombardi was in Brooklyn kneepants when the structure was set up that makes the Acme Meat Packers the only club in any major league that can't move to LA.

    Lambeau Field was built in 1956. Lombardi started coaching the Packers in 1959; he coached them to a division title in 1960, and the first of 4 league titles in 1961. (The Lombardi Pack also won Super Bowls I and II.) Sure, Curly Lambeau was the closest thing green Bay had to a George Halas, but after he left the Pack in the early ’50s, they were very much at risk, and the new stadium didn’t get them out of the woods. That required a great coach, Lombardi. I don’t think the community ownership structure would have prevented the NFL from seizing the franchise and awarding it elsewhere; as it was , the Pack were nearly forced to move to Milwaukee.

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  155. @Travis
    I wish they had a law which outlawed using taxpayer funds for stadiums......the NFL should be treated like a religion , thus the separation of church and state would prohibit taxing me to fund their cathedrals.

    Will be interesting to see if the Rams will be able to attract fans, as they were unable to attract fans 22 years ago....seems like they will face the same challenges again in LA, lack of fan support unless the team becomes a playoff contender..

    Georgia was broke except for the team and for some stupid reason wanted to still be part of a club she couldn’t afford. Her general manager John Snow was legendary for trying to squeeze money out of the franchise which Georgia needed to live on. He supposedly got her an offer of 200 million for the team but she wouldn’t take it.

    Every game some guys in the end zone would unfurl a big banner saying “Please Georgia Sell the Rams”.

    They have the same advantage the Dodgers and Lakers do, win and the money will come in – enough to buy more winners.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    Georgia was broke except for the team and for some stupid reason wanted to still be part of a club she couldn’t afford.
     
    Stupid? She liked the guy action from the team...read between the lines. Married seven times and a former showgirl...100% my opinion. Look at her photos on google and bing. Fraternizing with "the help" is my read. At least people knew how to keep their mouths shut back then. And as a previous commentator said, the next season of "Ray Donovan" will be moving into new LA football team and Stadium territory. With all the sleaze, bribes etc this involves.
  156. @Reg Cæsar
    Wisconsin is not a "small market".

    Green Bay is. Milwaukee is abouy 100 miles away and it isn’t a super large market either; it’s no Chicago.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Green Bay is [a small market]. Milwaukee is abouy 100 miles away and it isn’t a super large market either; it’s no Chicago.
     
    Six million live in Packer counties:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-fan-map-2014-9

    That's just the contiguous ones; Wisconsin (every county), Michigan, Iowa. They dominate some more in the Plains and elsewhere.
  157. @David In TN
    When the Packers played the Chiefs in Super Bowl I, most of the country was rooting for the Packers. The Kansas City Chiefs had no national appeal. They didn't even have an underdog sympathy factor.

    Dunno. I’d guess you are right in general, but I’d imagine people in AFL cities were rooting for the Chiefs. New York and the Bay area were the only metro areas with a franchise in both leagues.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    Yes, people in AFL cities were for the Chiefs, but aside from rabid AFL fans, my impression at the time was most people hoped for and expected a Packer victory.
  158. “I’d like to see a federal law outlawing professional sports leagues’ ban on community ownership. If the people of, say, Cleveland, are dead set upon staying a Major League City, let them buy shares in their teams and take on the risks and rewards of ownership.”

    Yeah….um, well, it would help and be more consistent if professional sports teams did not rely at all whatsoever on public money for building their stadiums. Let the owners do it the old fashioned way, and build their own stadiums with their own money. Why the hell should taxpayers subsidize billionaire owners? Isn’t that one more example of corporate welfare?

    The owners can certainly afford to build their own stadiums like they used to. At least back in the day (prior to late 1950s when public funding of stadiums came into vogue) this would be consistent with free market capitalism, where the owner owns the team and builds his stadium with his own money. Hence the names of the owners on many of the ancient concrete and steel MLB ballparks (e.g. Crosley Field; Ebbets Field; Commiskey Park; etc).

    Let ‘em build it themselves; the people will still come out to watch the games.

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  159. @Ganderson
    Shea was publicly funded. Robert Moses wanted the Dodgers to play in a publicly funded stadium in Flushing Meadows. Walter O'Malley Took theland offered by LA County along with the Chicano removal and never looked back. Neil Sullivans The Dodgers Move West is a really good book about the subject ,

    Shea was publicly funded.

    I goofed on that and thanks. But the public funding was small compared to today’s robberies of the public treasury.

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    • Replies: @ganderson
    Agreed. I always find it amusing that the argument about the Dodgers was that they wanted to build their own park, while the powers that be wanted them to play in a publicly funded crib.
  160. @whorefinder
    Of course, Green Bay is marvelously helped by the fact that it's kept out any competing franchise in Milwaukee or the state of Wisconsin in general. This, too, is a monopoly, although it's definitely not a natural one. This allowed Green Bay---which went through a lot of lean years---to remain "beloved"; there was simply no other team for locals to root for (whattaya gonna do, root for Minnesota?? Chicago??)

    This is similar teams in New England. Since the Braves left Boston in the 1950s, there was been a 1-team per sport mentality for all major sports. All 4 teams have chased out any hint of a competing franchise for the region. A few years ago the idea was floated that MLB's Montreal Expos could move to Boston and set up shop as the local National league franchise. The response in polls was overwhelmingly positive (upwards of 70-80% of local fans were ecstatic, being baseball nuts), but the Red Sox thoroughly quashed the Expos coming in (they eventually went to DC and became the Nationals). The local market was too lucrative to share. The other 3 major franchises have done the same.

    There is, however, a silver lining to this self-enforced-monoply.

    Since all of New England is beholden to those 4 teams (minus the bottom half of Connecticut, which is a suburb of New York and roots for NY teams), this creates huge leverage for the region against the teams. Unlike some of their MLB counterparts, the Red Sox couldn't force the city or state to build them a new stadium, since they couldn't honestly threaten to leave ("where else will you be the only team in a major town that sells out games even in losing seasons?"); as a result, the Sox had to merely upgrade old Fenway park. Similarly, the Patriots have long threatened to move---it was St. Louis back in the early 90s (before the Rams moved there), and then it was Hartford. Nobody bit; nobody bought that the Pats would leave a perfect situation fan-wise for a more competitive market (In Hartford, they compete with NY teams; in St. Louis, the Chiefs).

    So, in conclusion, local monopolies can actually backfire in part on the local monopoly holders.

    Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me, but it seemed dumb at the time (for the reasons listed above why the New England teams won't leave New England), and it seems like they're fixing their mistake. Good for LA for not selling themselves out to keep them or the Raiders.

    ”Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me”
    No mystery, it came down to the Rams demanding a new football-only stadium, LA told ‘em ”nothing wrong with the Colosseum or Anaheim can fix up their stadium”. Actually the Colosseum sucks for NFL football, the running track fouls up the sightlines – you’ll see why the Raiders left this fall. After losing the Cardinals, St. Louis realized if they want the NFL they’d have to build a new stadium – no tears shed for them.
    BTW, the NFL is going to make sure the other team is the Chargers, they want to freeze out the Raiders – who are back talking with San Antonio.
    Prediction: Whatever stadium the Raiders go to, you watch, it’ll ban costumes/fake weapons. Don’t believe me? Check Disneyland – or World to the East, they just did that. Leave your Wookie suit or toy lightsaber at home.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    I hate to break this to you, but the USC Trojans have been playing there the entire time, and the track was removed years ago.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hold it. Why can't the Rams simply play at the Rose Bowl, UCLA's stomping grounds? The Rose Bowl hosted Super Bowl XIV and set a live attendance record thats still standing, 103k plus.

    Ironically, the Rams played in that game. It was also their final season in LA ('79) before they would move to Anaheim the following year.
  161. @ganderson
    Dunno. I'd guess you are right in general, but I'd imagine people in AFL cities were rooting for the Chiefs. New York and the Bay area were the only metro areas with a franchise in both leagues.

    Yes, people in AFL cities were for the Chiefs, but aside from rabid AFL fans, my impression at the time was most people hoped for and expected a Packer victory.

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  162. @Hibernian
    Green Bay is. Milwaukee is abouy 100 miles away and it isn't a super large market either; it's no Chicago.

    Green Bay is [a small market]. Milwaukee is abouy 100 miles away and it isn’t a super large market either; it’s no Chicago.

    Six million live in Packer counties:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-fan-map-2014-9

    That’s just the contiguous ones; Wisconsin (every county), Michigan, Iowa. They dominate some more in the Plains and elsewhere.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    A lot of those people are only going to listen to the games on the Packers radio network, and you can bet that radio revenue is not overwhelming. Also many of the counties are very sparsely populated. The Packers senior PR man says they're by far the smallest market in the NFL. They get a fair number of people attending the games from Milwaukee, but it's a 100 mile drive. Also note that teams based in very large cities, on your map, also have extensive rural and small town fan territory.
    , @Travis
    I suppose that makes Philadelphia the largest Market in America, being just 90 miles from New York City (which lacks an NFL franchise)
  163. @Big Bill
    Oh my goodness! I never realized!

    I thought Packer management was going to consult with me on team business! I thought I could retire on the dividend I would get for my Packer share!

    I was going to get RICH! I was going to get a free skybox!

    Thank you so much for warning me! What a dastardly scam they are running!

    I feel almost as bad as I did when I bought my Pet Rock a few decades ago and found out ... it wasn't even alive!

    Glad I could help.

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  164. @Reg Cæsar

    Green Bay is [a small market]. Milwaukee is abouy 100 miles away and it isn’t a super large market either; it’s no Chicago.
     
    Six million live in Packer counties:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-fan-map-2014-9

    That's just the contiguous ones; Wisconsin (every county), Michigan, Iowa. They dominate some more in the Plains and elsewhere.

    A lot of those people are only going to listen to the games on the Packers radio network, and you can bet that radio revenue is not overwhelming. Also many of the counties are very sparsely populated. The Packers senior PR man says they’re by far the smallest market in the NFL. They get a fair number of people attending the games from Milwaukee, but it’s a 100 mile drive. Also note that teams based in very large cities, on your map, also have extensive rural and small town fan territory.

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  165. @Reg Cæsar

    Green Bay is [a small market]. Milwaukee is abouy 100 miles away and it isn’t a super large market either; it’s no Chicago.
     
    Six million live in Packer counties:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-fan-map-2014-9

    That's just the contiguous ones; Wisconsin (every county), Michigan, Iowa. They dominate some more in the Plains and elsewhere.

    I suppose that makes Philadelphia the largest Market in America, being just 90 miles from New York City (which lacks an NFL franchise)

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I suppose that makes Philadelphia the largest Market in America, being just 90 miles from New York City (which lacks an NFL franchise)
     
    Ah, but East Rutherford has two.

    We're driving into the Packers' market this afternoon. It starts only 25 mi from TCF Stadium.
  166. @Clyde

    Shea was publicly funded.
     
    I goofed on that and thanks. But the public funding was small compared to today's robberies of the public treasury.

    Agreed. I always find it amusing that the argument about the Dodgers was that they wanted to build their own park, while the powers that be wanted them to play in a publicly funded crib.

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  167. @MarkinLA
    Georgia was broke except for the team and for some stupid reason wanted to still be part of a club she couldn't afford. Her general manager John Snow was legendary for trying to squeeze money out of the franchise which Georgia needed to live on. He supposedly got her an offer of 200 million for the team but she wouldn't take it.

    Every game some guys in the end zone would unfurl a big banner saying "Please Georgia Sell the Rams".

    They have the same advantage the Dodgers and Lakers do, win and the money will come in - enough to buy more winners.

    Georgia was broke except for the team and for some stupid reason wanted to still be part of a club she couldn’t afford.

    Stupid? She liked the guy action from the team…read between the lines. Married seven times and a former showgirl…100% my opinion. Look at her photos on google and bing. Fraternizing with “the help” is my read. At least people knew how to keep their mouths shut back then. And as a previous commentator said, the next season of “Ray Donovan” will be moving into new LA football team and Stadium territory. With all the sleaze, bribes etc this involves.

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  168. @whorefinder
    when the Yankee$ can replace YANKEE FREAKING STADIUM but Fenway is untouchable

    Get your facts straight, angry man. The Yankees didn't replace Yankee Stadium; NYC taxpayers did. That was a fleecing of the citizenry. As was the Mets stadium. The majority of the costs were footed by the taxpayers. http://www.fieldofschemes.com/documents/Yanks-Mets-costs.pdf

    The current Red Sox owners don't want to be playing in Fenway Park, but they also don't want to build their own new park. They tried to extort the money for a new park from Boston the same way the Yankees and Mets did but Boston told them to go screw---for exactly the reasons I mentioned: where else could they go and have such a sweet deal as the biggest/ only baseball draw in a major baseball-loving region?

    And to your point: fans really really like Fenway Park. The owners fixed it up best they could, and put in a lot of new amenities---the Monster Seats, the closing down of Yawkey Way during games and having street fairs the fans could go to between innings. People now go on tours there.

    You may not like it, but the majority of the people---both Bostonians and tourists---think it's the cat's meow. Democracy speaks on that one. Plenty of people took your season tickets with glee.

    As to TD Garden---yes, it's soulless, but unlike baseball stadiums, hockey/basketball stadiums have never really been architectural masterpieces to behold; they are merely large gyms for multiple events per week, and TD Garden was also a product of the architecture of it's time. And additionally, the old Garden sucked balls; it's one saving grace was the closeness to the action (due to it being built as a boxing facility, so the seats were much closer to the action that other hockey/basketball arenas). The championship aura of the Celtics and Bobby Orr Bruins helped people forget it's shortcomings. But it had no AC and the locker rooms were a joke for modern athletes.

    In conclusion, lighten up, Francis.

    Someone other than the Yankee$ playing in that park? Then I guess it’s the Yankee$ park, no matter who paid for it.

    “Lot of new amenities” isn’t polishing the turd?

    The reasons you give as prime motivators (athlete’s amenities) to replace the old Garden are continued issues at Fenway. You strike me as the average uber-parochial Bostonian; have you taken the tour and seen how decrepit the place really is?

    But things are easy when the city government is in the tank. It’ll be interesting to see if the $ox ownership has as easy a time bending Mah-ty over as they did Mumbles.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/10/26/state-report-criticizes-red-sox-deal-with-bra/GMIg1WRap1wLQGHq2MYg2M/story.html

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/11/06/red-sox-reap-from-lansdowne-yawkey-way-lease-deal/Jye8poCiyvBEMOKgsie7qK/story.html

    http://www.wcvb.com/money/bra-red-sox-deal-cost-taxpayers-millions-report-says/36079892

    The city called one of the most popular nightlife destinations in the city “blighted” to give the $ox their sweetheart deal. Even now, they’ve embarked upon a campaign to kill off Who’s On First.

    Three of us left the season ticket package, with the one friend staying in switching to the weekend/holiday package. He cherry picks the games he wants and sells the rest to a ticket broker. Despite your feelings on the matter, the Pink & Green Hat Nation is a bit more fickle than previous generations of fans; $ox tickets were available last year on StubHub for $5.

    Democracy? Given a choice between keeping the park or building a new one and subsidizing a billionaire’s toy, I know how I’d vote. Instead, the Boston taxpayers are drained with 1,000 cuts instead of being stabbed in the heart.

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  169. @Travis
    I suppose that makes Philadelphia the largest Market in America, being just 90 miles from New York City (which lacks an NFL franchise)

    I suppose that makes Philadelphia the largest Market in America, being just 90 miles from New York City (which lacks an NFL franchise)

    Ah, but East Rutherford has two.

    We’re driving into the Packers’ market this afternoon. It starts only 25 mi from TCF Stadium.

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  170. @YIH
    ''Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me''
    No mystery, it came down to the Rams demanding a new football-only stadium, LA told 'em ''nothing wrong with the Colosseum or Anaheim can fix up their stadium''. Actually the Colosseum sucks for NFL football, the running track fouls up the sightlines - you'll see why the Raiders left this fall. After losing the Cardinals, St. Louis realized if they want the NFL they'd have to build a new stadium - no tears shed for them.
    BTW, the NFL is going to make sure the other team is the Chargers, they want to freeze out the Raiders - who are back talking with San Antonio.
    Prediction: Whatever stadium the Raiders go to, you watch, it'll ban costumes/fake weapons. Don't believe me? Check Disneyland - or World to the East, they just did that. Leave your Wookie suit or toy lightsaber at home.

    I hate to break this to you, but the USC Trojans have been playing there the entire time, and the track was removed years ago.

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  171. @YIH
    ''Why the Rams left LA for St. Louis is still a mystery to me''
    No mystery, it came down to the Rams demanding a new football-only stadium, LA told 'em ''nothing wrong with the Colosseum or Anaheim can fix up their stadium''. Actually the Colosseum sucks for NFL football, the running track fouls up the sightlines - you'll see why the Raiders left this fall. After losing the Cardinals, St. Louis realized if they want the NFL they'd have to build a new stadium - no tears shed for them.
    BTW, the NFL is going to make sure the other team is the Chargers, they want to freeze out the Raiders - who are back talking with San Antonio.
    Prediction: Whatever stadium the Raiders go to, you watch, it'll ban costumes/fake weapons. Don't believe me? Check Disneyland - or World to the East, they just did that. Leave your Wookie suit or toy lightsaber at home.

    Hold it. Why can’t the Rams simply play at the Rose Bowl, UCLA’s stomping grounds? The Rose Bowl hosted Super Bowl XIV and set a live attendance record thats still standing, 103k plus.

    Ironically, the Rams played in that game. It was also their final season in LA (’79) before they would move to Anaheim the following year.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Coincidence, not irony

    To answer your question, the Pasadena doesn't want the hassle. UCLA Bruin football is enough.
    , @njguy73
    Selling out the Rose Bowl 8 times a year would a challenge for the Rams, to say the least. And before the NFL suspended the blackout rule last year, neither the LA Coliseum nor the Rose Bowl had any chance of hosting a team.
  172. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hold it. Why can't the Rams simply play at the Rose Bowl, UCLA's stomping grounds? The Rose Bowl hosted Super Bowl XIV and set a live attendance record thats still standing, 103k plus.

    Ironically, the Rams played in that game. It was also their final season in LA ('79) before they would move to Anaheim the following year.

    Coincidence, not irony

    To answer your question, the Pasadena doesn’t want the hassle. UCLA Bruin football is enough.

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  173. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hold it. Why can't the Rams simply play at the Rose Bowl, UCLA's stomping grounds? The Rose Bowl hosted Super Bowl XIV and set a live attendance record thats still standing, 103k plus.

    Ironically, the Rams played in that game. It was also their final season in LA ('79) before they would move to Anaheim the following year.

    Selling out the Rose Bowl 8 times a year would a challenge for the Rams, to say the least. And before the NFL suspended the blackout rule last year, neither the LA Coliseum nor the Rose Bowl had any chance of hosting a team.

    Read More
  174. @RadicalCenter
    Baseball, once lovingly called America's national pastime, is definitely a sport for civilized, patriotic European-Americans.

    Our family enjoys baseball and hockey, and indeed the Africans and African-worshippers can keep basketball and football, both pro and college.

    Asians, especially those born in the USA -- which is most of the Asians here -- don't give a damn about ping pong and would laugh to see that written.

    Mexicans love love love the NFL, both here in Los Angeles and elsewhere, including at least northern Mexico itself. I've seen plenty of Mexicans / Mexican-Americans wearing nfl gear, especially Cowboys in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, in places nowhere near Dallas. And our Mexican neighbor can be heard screaming and whooping loudly like a freaking retard for hours on end as he and his moron buddies watch nfl.

    “Football combines the two worst things about America: it is violence punctuated by committee meetings.”
    – George Will

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  175. @Clyde
    Vince Lombardi presided over the baseball to football supremacy crossover. Yes America was a superior nation when baseball was the national pastime meaning (for the young 'uns out there) it was America's number one sport. Circa 1960 with the two Giants-Colts NFL league championship games football started surpassing baseball. I saw one (prolly 59) in a bar/tavern with my father while out on a skiing trip. Johnny Unitas and YA Tittle those kind of post WW2 men are not coming back again......

    Incredible as it may seem today, many NFL players of that era worked second jobs during the off season.

    On the baseball side, I’ve read that Stan Musial used to take the bus to go back home from the ballpark after an afternoon game.

    You’re right: those men aren’t coming back and America was a better nation.

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