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Screenshot 2017-08-22 18.54.28

Here’s a table of mean percentiles on postgrad tests by race/ethnicity relative to the white distribution of scores.

By definition, whites average at the 50th percentile of the white distribution. In contrast, the black mean score on, say, the GMAT (for MBA programs) would fall at the 13th percentile among whites.

I created this table for my 2009 VDARE article, which includes much more on the sources, methodology, and interesting implications of the data.

Feel free to update it with the latest data using the links provided in my 8-year-old VDARE article.

 
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  1. Is there no more-recent data than 2008?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I imagine newer data would be available from the latest versions of the official documents I used to pull this together in 2009. See my VDARE article for the links. Feel free to knock yourself out updating it.
    , @Father O'Hara
    The last category is DAT. What's DAT?
  2. I’m confused, why aren’t you using recent data?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Because I created this table for a VDARE article in 2009.

    Feel free to update it with the latest data using the URL links I supplied in my VDARE article.

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Because IQ doesn't change much. ;)
  3. Steve,

    If blacks are scoring around the 10% level relative to whites this would suggest a gap of even more than one standard deviation on many of these tests.

    I find this quite interesting in that the gap may actually increase at the higher levels of cognitive competition?

    I would have predicted a lower gap at the higher levels of cognitive competition.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I think some of what this table shows has to do with ego and ambitiousness: blacks tend to be well-endowed ego-wise, so they think it likely they can become a lawyer. Mexican-Americans, in contrast, aren't as ambitious, so the Mexican-Americans who take the LSAT have a more realistic view on average of their chances of scoring well.

    Anyway, I think I wrote up a lot of my speculations about the data in my 2009 VDARE article, so I'd encourage anybody interested to start there.

    , @Alfa158
    The Gaussian Distribution, which the Bell Curve roughly approximates is a non-linear function therefore differences in the center of distribution between different groups will result in increased differences as you go farther out towards the tails. Therefore if a higher IQ is required to achieve a 50th percentile score on a certain test then the ratios between different groups get wider as the required intelligence goes further out on the curve.
    For example, if we accept for argument the distribution curve, and the average and standard deviation that are commonly used, what is the percentage of Blacks achieving a certain score compared to Whites :
    IQ 100 or higher : Whites 50%, Blacks 16% Black to White ratio : 32%
    IQ 115 or higher : Whites 16%, Blacks 2.28% Black to White ratio : 14%
    IQ 130 or higher : Whites 2.28%, Blacks 0.135%% Black to White ratio : 6%
    IQ 145 or higher : Whites 0.135%, Blacks 0.003%%% Black to White ratio : 3%
  4. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    Is there no more-recent data than 2008?

    I imagine newer data would be available from the latest versions of the official documents I used to pull this together in 2009. See my VDARE article for the links. Feel free to knock yourself out updating it.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Replying to your comment Steve so you see this:

    By definition, whites average at the 50th percentile of the white distribution. In contrast, the black mean score on, say, the GMAT (for MBA programs) would fall at the 13th percentile among whites.
     
    The median white score would be the 50th percentile of the white distribution by the definition of a median, not the mean.

    Assuming the white score distributions are bell-shaped, the means are likely close to (but not exactly) the 50th percentile, but nothing about the definition of a mean means distributions have to be bell-shaped.

    Sorry to be an asshole about it, but I figured I should bring it up since HBD-denialists are eagle-eyed for minor statistical and factual errors in HBD literature.
  5. @Nigerian Nationalist
    I'm confused, why aren't you using recent data?

    Because I created this table for a VDARE article in 2009.

    Feel free to update it with the latest data using the URL links I supplied in my VDARE article.

  6. The truth is racist, as well as sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic, and anti-Zionist.

    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    It's almost as if evolution discriminates in the genes it selects, as if discrimination were an element of selection.
  7. Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores. Is that an immigrant thing, or are they just not as good with verbal vs. math.

    I feel like that I’ve read that NE Asians are a bit of oddity for having a bifuracted IQ in terms of spatial and verbal but perhaps I misremember.

    Either way, viva la difference . . . unless, of course, it’s about some that I care about.

    • Replies: @epebble
    Many Asian test takers are immigrants; in fact, many GMAT & GRE takers are foreigners since it is a requirement to join U.S. universities. So, for many of them, it is actually a test of English as a second/foreign language. That being said, it also appears that Asians have advantage in abstract/symbol processing (over text processing) as the Quant score convincingly shows.
    , @Dr. X

    Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores. Is that an immigrant thing, or are they just not as good with verbal vs. math.
     
    It's the latter -- they're not good at verbal.

    I went to a large state university for graduate school. There was a big Asian (mostly Chinese, but some Korean and Subcontinental) student population, because the institution had made some kind of deal with the Chinese government.

    At a large research-oriented institution, a significant percentage -- perhaps a majority -- of undergraduate classes are taught by graduate students.

    The Asian grad students tended to be concentrated almost wholly in the STEM fields. A very, very comment complaint from American undergraduates taking required math and science courses was that their Asian grad-student instructors "could barely speak English" or were "difficult to understand" in lectures.

    By comparison, most of the European grad students and professors I've met spoke excellent English -- in some cases better then American native-born English-speakers.

    , @keuril

    Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores
     
    There's no way Asians as a group are on a level playing field with whites when it comes to verbal. It's a huge advantage to have two college educated native English speakers as parents. In this respect, white test takers, as a group, are advantaged in comparison to all other groups, but Asians in particular.
  8. @Nigerian Nationalist
    I'm confused, why aren't you using recent data?

    Because IQ doesn’t change much. 😉

  9. Interesting.

    I’d like to know if they included Brazilians as hispanics in this. We are not hispanics but we are latinos and sometimes people count us as hispanics. I’d guess our average would be bigger than what the table shows for hispanics and mexican-americans.

    In my case, I’m a mixed-race Brazilian (2 southern-european grandparents, 1 mulatto grandparent, 1 “caboclo” (white+indian) grandparent) and my verbal GRE is in the 95th percentile and my quant is in the 64th. Good enough for a English Phd at Harvard, but not enough for a Master in Engineering at Stanford.

    Maybe I’m in the extreme of the normal distribution for latinos, but I’m surprised by how low the scores are for the hispanics and mexican-americans.

    • Replies: @Thomm
    In America, you would just be called 'Hispanic'.

    If the number of Brazilians in America rose to 5M or more, then a separate designation is possible, but since the number is far below that, there just isn't a distinction.

    Hey, at least you are still Catholic, have the same genetic mix as many Hispanics, and the Portuguese language is very similar to Spanish. The real misleading designation is 'Asian', where multiple races, religions, language families (let along languages), etc. are lumped in one.

    A Sri Lankan and a Japanese are both called 'Asian' in the US stats, while the US average Joe doesn't even know what a Sri Lankan is..
  10. @lavoisier
    Steve,

    If blacks are scoring around the 10% level relative to whites this would suggest a gap of even more than one standard deviation on many of these tests.

    I find this quite interesting in that the gap may actually increase at the higher levels of cognitive competition?

    I would have predicted a lower gap at the higher levels of cognitive competition.

    I think some of what this table shows has to do with ego and ambitiousness: blacks tend to be well-endowed ego-wise, so they think it likely they can become a lawyer. Mexican-Americans, in contrast, aren’t as ambitious, so the Mexican-Americans who take the LSAT have a more realistic view on average of their chances of scoring well.

    Anyway, I think I wrote up a lot of my speculations about the data in my 2009 VDARE article, so I’d encourage anybody interested to start there.

    • Replies: @george
    What makes no sense to me is the test is purely voluntary. Why take a test you are unprepared for and know it. The black students must have taken sample exams. Shame on the Universities they attend for letting them as a group take a test they are unprepared for.
    , @Curle
    But how do the races compare in terms of people who don't think formal professional education matters as far as their performance as lawyers (or imagining they are)? Sorry, you triggered one of my bugaboos (the white of strictly average intelligence now armed with an open admission online college bachelors degree who imagines himself equivalent of Harvard MD or JD on professional matters). Think, the folks who believe in Declarationism.
  11. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Man, what's with Asians and verbal scores. Is that an immigrant thing, or are they just not as good with verbal vs. math.

    I feel like that I've read that NE Asians are a bit of oddity for having a bifuracted IQ in terms of spatial and verbal but perhaps I misremember.

    Either way, viva la difference . . . unless, of course, it's about some that I care about.

    Many Asian test takers are immigrants; in fact, many GMAT & GRE takers are foreigners since it is a requirement to join U.S. universities. So, for many of them, it is actually a test of English as a second/foreign language. That being said, it also appears that Asians have advantage in abstract/symbol processing (over text processing) as the Quant score convincingly shows.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Following up on the HBD point of math/verbal split for East Asians, while it's commonly known that East Asians tend to skew towards STEM and away from the humanities, social sciences, law, etc, even within science East Asians appear to have a clear preference for physical sciences as opposed to biological life sciences. See here.

    http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp9.pdf

    "More strikingly, in 2000 China authored just 0.6 per cent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one per cent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3 per cent of the leading one per cent of papers, half as many as the US – an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing – where China publishes more top one per cent papers than the US – and mathematics (NSF, 2014). China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and to some degree Singapore, have concentrated research development in the physical sciences and related applied fields like engineering, computing and materials. In Korea and Japan this supports advanced manufacturing. China also emphasises research that supports accelerated modernisation: energy, urbanisation, construction, transport and communications. At this stage medicine and life sciences are much weaker."

    Simon Marginson has been following the rise of China/East Asia for a while now and has consistently noted that East Asia tends to skew towards math/computing/engineering/physics/chemistry more so than life sciences/social/sciences humanities, without necessarily realizing the possible HBD explanation behind it.

  12. More interesting is the fact that Asians are so dominant at the tops of distribution on math and that trend appears to be widening:

    For example on the SAT
    in 2006, an 800 (perfect score) was 98th percentile for Asian Americans
    in 2013, that number was 96th percentile

    http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/CR_M_%20W_PercentileRanksGenderEthnicGroups.pdf
    http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-By-Gender-Ethnicity-2013.pdf

    According to the 2013 report, an Asian American is more likely to score 700+ than an African American is likely to score 500+ on the SAT Math, yet we wonder why there is a disparity in silicon valley.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Asians have been pulling away from everybody else in SAT scores in this century.
    , @eah
    In terms of economic development and scientific/engineering achievement, the differences between average scores for Whites vs Asians do not appear to have been practically significant.
    , @Yan Shen
    Yeah, we pretty much always talk about the black vs white gap in testing in this country, but I would assume that the biggest gaps are probably found on quantitative tests between East Asian males and black females.

    Gender aside, the fact that an Asian American is slightly more likely to score a 700 or higher on the SAT math than a black American is to score above a 500 is truly staggering...
  13. Yes but the Establishment has a “compelling interest” in giving white (and to be fair, increasingly Asian) children the shaft — I know because the Supreme Court said so — oh and Justices (((Ginsburg))) and (((Breyer))) concurred in judgment, but stated that they did not subscribe to the Court’s belief that the affirmative measures in question would be unnecessary in 25 years.

    • Replies: @eah
    did not subscribe to the Court's belief that the affirmative measures in question would be unnecessary in 25 years

    https://twitter.com/HarmlessYardDog/status/900019233798729728
    , @lavoisier
    Justices Ginsburg and Breyer were right.

    Are they race realists?
  14. @epebble
    Many Asian test takers are immigrants; in fact, many GMAT & GRE takers are foreigners since it is a requirement to join U.S. universities. So, for many of them, it is actually a test of English as a second/foreign language. That being said, it also appears that Asians have advantage in abstract/symbol processing (over text processing) as the Quant score convincingly shows.

    Following up on the HBD point of math/verbal split for East Asians, while it’s commonly known that East Asians tend to skew towards STEM and away from the humanities, social sciences, law, etc, even within science East Asians appear to have a clear preference for physical sciences as opposed to biological life sciences. See here.

    http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp9.pdf

    “More strikingly, in 2000 China authored just 0.6 per cent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one per cent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3 per cent of the leading one per cent of papers, half as many as the US – an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing – where China publishes more top one per cent papers than the US – and mathematics (NSF, 2014). China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and to some degree Singapore, have concentrated research development in the physical sciences and related applied fields like engineering, computing and materials. In Korea and Japan this supports advanced manufacturing. China also emphasises research that supports accelerated modernisation: energy, urbanisation, construction, transport and communications. At this stage medicine and life sciences are much weaker.”

    Simon Marginson has been following the rise of China/East Asia for a while now and has consistently noted that East Asia tends to skew towards math/computing/engineering/physics/chemistry more so than life sciences/social/sciences humanities, without necessarily realizing the possible HBD explanation behind it.

    • Replies: @Michelle
    I work for a City government institution. Foreign born and many native born Asians account for the majority of our part time employees, but they do absolutely awful on any promotional test for permanent employment. We employ a Chinese-American tech guy who is completely masterful at his job, but could not score well enough to place on an eligible list. He was so good at the job that the "Powers That Be" finally gave him a higher job title and pay because he had been performing above his job title for years and if you "Act" above your job title for over 2 years, you are supposed to get that job.

    After any tests, the Asians tell me that they did not understand "Hypothetical Situation" questions and that the math parts of the tests were easy. Unfortunately, the hypothetical situation questions are based on what we actually have to deal with on a day to day basis.

  15. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Man, what's with Asians and verbal scores. Is that an immigrant thing, or are they just not as good with verbal vs. math.

    I feel like that I've read that NE Asians are a bit of oddity for having a bifuracted IQ in terms of spatial and verbal but perhaps I misremember.

    Either way, viva la difference . . . unless, of course, it's about some that I care about.

    Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores. Is that an immigrant thing, or are they just not as good with verbal vs. math.

    It’s the latter — they’re not good at verbal.

    I went to a large state university for graduate school. There was a big Asian (mostly Chinese, but some Korean and Subcontinental) student population, because the institution had made some kind of deal with the Chinese government.

    At a large research-oriented institution, a significant percentage — perhaps a majority — of undergraduate classes are taught by graduate students.

    The Asian grad students tended to be concentrated almost wholly in the STEM fields. A very, very comment complaint from American undergraduates taking required math and science courses was that their Asian grad-student instructors “could barely speak English” or were “difficult to understand” in lectures.

    By comparison, most of the European grad students and professors I’ve met spoke excellent English — in some cases better then American native-born English-speakers.

    • Replies: @JW
    Of course it's East Asians. South Asians are highly verbal, which is perhaps why they climb the corporate ladder more easily e.g. the number of Indian CEO's in Silicon Valley vs East Asian.
  16. @gman
    More interesting is the fact that Asians are so dominant at the tops of distribution on math and that trend appears to be widening:

    For example on the SAT
    in 2006, an 800 (perfect score) was 98th percentile for Asian Americans
    in 2013, that number was 96th percentile

    http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/CR_M_%20W_PercentileRanksGenderEthnicGroups.pdf
    http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-By-Gender-Ethnicity-2013.pdf

    According to the 2013 report, an Asian American is more likely to score 700+ than an African American is likely to score 500+ on the SAT Math, yet we wonder why there is a disparity in silicon valley.

    Asians have been pulling away from everybody else in SAT scores in this century.

    • Replies: @Redman
    It's been a while since I took the LSAT. 1991. But I had several Asian friends in college who switched from engineering to law when they graduated.

    I was amazed at how well they did on the logic games section (the more spatial, mathematical part of the test) and also how poorly they did on the verbal/reading comprehension section.

    I was the exact opposite, and quite envious of their dominance of logic games. True, my friends were sons of immigrants while I was 2nd generation German. But I don't think there's much difference in verbal ability between people born and raised in the US.
    , @Thomm
    Interesting how East Asians and South Asians are both pulling away, despite being completely different from each other.

    Or are they really just standing still on account of still having two-parent homes and a view that one should pursue rigorous professions, while whites and others are just falling behind on account of normalizing single motherhood and other SJW dysfunction.

    I wonder if a lot of Asian success can be attributed to less self-sabotage and destruction of the family relative to others, and little more..
  17. @eah
    Yes but the Establishment has a "compelling interest" in giving white (and to be fair, increasingly Asian) children the shaft -- I know because the Supreme Court said so -- oh and Justices (((Ginsburg))) and (((Breyer))) concurred in judgment, but stated that they did not subscribe to the Court's belief that the affirmative measures in question would be unnecessary in 25 years.

    https://twitter.com/porter14159/status/898400633622900737

    did not subscribe to the Court’s belief that the affirmative measures in question would be unnecessary in 25 years

  18. Given how confusing the aggregate Asian category is in terms of lumping together Southeast Asians along with high math East Asians and high verbal South Asians and given how non-straightforward it is to understand how selective immigration may be affecting more recent cohorts of students, I think it’s plausible that increases in specific test subject areas for “Asians” may simply be the result of changes in the underlying population of “Asians” more so than anything else.

    That being said, I want to echo gman in pointing out that East Asians appear to be pretty strong in quantitative subject areas, which I would argue is a huge positive for society. A meme popularized by Half Sigma/Lion of the Blogosphere was that mathematical ability seemed conducive to value creation while verbal ability seemed conducive to value transference, i.e. engineers vs lawyers, etc. Take for example Japan. I think I had read before somewhere that Japan had one of the lowest passing rates for the bar exam among major developed nations. You also blogged before about Japan’s lawyer boom to bust.

    On other hand the Japanese seem fairly good at creating things.

    • Replies: @eah
    which I would argue is a huge positive for society

    Not if you're a white parent with bright kids planning to attend an elite university -- by "society" I assume you mean white countries -- if that's the case, they can stay where they are and their home countries can enjoy all the benefits of their presence -- we don't mind.
  19. @Steve Sailer
    I imagine newer data would be available from the latest versions of the official documents I used to pull this together in 2009. See my VDARE article for the links. Feel free to knock yourself out updating it.

    Replying to your comment Steve so you see this:

    By definition, whites average at the 50th percentile of the white distribution. In contrast, the black mean score on, say, the GMAT (for MBA programs) would fall at the 13th percentile among whites.

    The median white score would be the 50th percentile of the white distribution by the definition of a median, not the mean.

    Assuming the white score distributions are bell-shaped, the means are likely close to (but not exactly) the 50th percentile, but nothing about the definition of a mean means distributions have to be bell-shaped.

    Sorry to be an asshole about it, but I figured I should bring it up since HBD-denialists are eagle-eyed for minor statistical and factual errors in HBD literature.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Let's cut Steve a break here with respect to average vs median. :)

    On the other hand, as gman pointed out, that may explain some other facts in this country. When a Steve, Chad, Jose, or Jamal don't quite get the distinction between average and median correct, but Chan does, it's not all that surprising that Asians are over-represented by something like 8-9X in technical roles in Silion Valley relative to their overall population percent.

  20. @eah
    Yes but the Establishment has a "compelling interest" in giving white (and to be fair, increasingly Asian) children the shaft -- I know because the Supreme Court said so -- oh and Justices (((Ginsburg))) and (((Breyer))) concurred in judgment, but stated that they did not subscribe to the Court's belief that the affirmative measures in question would be unnecessary in 25 years.

    https://twitter.com/porter14159/status/898400633622900737

    Justices Ginsburg and Breyer were right.

    Are they race realists?

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    Justices Ginsburg and Breyer were right.
    Are they race realists?
     
    Probably.

    My own very private interrogations of ultra liberal family members (including several deathbed conversations) have revealed exactly this. They know the negro is a permanent "special needs" case whom will forever require the assistance and support of Europeans.
  21. @gman
    More interesting is the fact that Asians are so dominant at the tops of distribution on math and that trend appears to be widening:

    For example on the SAT
    in 2006, an 800 (perfect score) was 98th percentile for Asian Americans
    in 2013, that number was 96th percentile

    http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/CR_M_%20W_PercentileRanksGenderEthnicGroups.pdf
    http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-By-Gender-Ethnicity-2013.pdf

    According to the 2013 report, an Asian American is more likely to score 700+ than an African American is likely to score 500+ on the SAT Math, yet we wonder why there is a disparity in silicon valley.

    In terms of economic development and scientific/engineering achievement, the differences between average scores for Whites vs Asians do not appear to have been practically significant.

  22. @Steve Sailer
    Asians have been pulling away from everybody else in SAT scores in this century.

    It’s been a while since I took the LSAT. 1991. But I had several Asian friends in college who switched from engineering to law when they graduated.

    I was amazed at how well they did on the logic games section (the more spatial, mathematical part of the test) and also how poorly they did on the verbal/reading comprehension section.

    I was the exact opposite, and quite envious of their dominance of logic games. True, my friends were sons of immigrants while I was 2nd generation German. But I don’t think there’s much difference in verbal ability between people born and raised in the US.

  23. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Man, what's with Asians and verbal scores. Is that an immigrant thing, or are they just not as good with verbal vs. math.

    I feel like that I've read that NE Asians are a bit of oddity for having a bifuracted IQ in terms of spatial and verbal but perhaps I misremember.

    Either way, viva la difference . . . unless, of course, it's about some that I care about.

    Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores

    There’s no way Asians as a group are on a level playing field with whites when it comes to verbal. It’s a huge advantage to have two college educated native English speakers as parents. In this respect, white test takers, as a group, are advantaged in comparison to all other groups, but Asians in particular.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Has very little to do with it. My parents were neither college educated nor native English speakers. But they did give me genetic advantages which were much more important than the former. Asian brain is just not as well set up for verbal skills, tilted more toward math. After 3 generations in the US, it will still be the same.
    , @Aretoukiddingme
    What a crock of sh!t you spew. You obviously sucked at the critical thinking portion of ANY of these exams.
  24. @Yan Shen
    Given how confusing the aggregate Asian category is in terms of lumping together Southeast Asians along with high math East Asians and high verbal South Asians and given how non-straightforward it is to understand how selective immigration may be affecting more recent cohorts of students, I think it's plausible that increases in specific test subject areas for "Asians" may simply be the result of changes in the underlying population of "Asians" more so than anything else.

    That being said, I want to echo gman in pointing out that East Asians appear to be pretty strong in quantitative subject areas, which I would argue is a huge positive for society. A meme popularized by Half Sigma/Lion of the Blogosphere was that mathematical ability seemed conducive to value creation while verbal ability seemed conducive to value transference, i.e. engineers vs lawyers, etc. Take for example Japan. I think I had read before somewhere that Japan had one of the lowest passing rates for the bar exam among major developed nations. You also blogged before about Japan's lawyer boom to bust.

    On other hand the Japanese seem fairly good at creating things.

    which I would argue is a huge positive for society

    Not if you’re a white parent with bright kids planning to attend an elite university — by “society” I assume you mean white countries — if that’s the case, they can stay where they are and their home countries can enjoy all the benefits of their presence — we don’t mind.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    No since I live in the US, I'm obviously referring to American society. I mean it's not like I'm a uh white nationalist masquerading as an American nationalist, supposedly a self-avowed citizenist, but somehow strangely obsessing over the state of every other white country on Earth... (If you ever want a good example of real nationalism as opposed to ethnic nationalism, just look to East Asia.)

    By the way, the math/verbal split for East Asians actually strongly affects how the economies of East Asia are oriented with respect to the economies of the West. As Ron Unz and others have pointed out, East Asian economies are clearly skewed towards advanced manufacturing and tech, i.e. value creation, while the economies of most Western nations skew towards services, i.e. value transference, California tech aside.

    In today's high globalized economy, you and numerous others are already enjoying the benefits of high quantitative aptitude, even when it's thousands of miles away!

  25. @snorlax
    Replying to your comment Steve so you see this:

    By definition, whites average at the 50th percentile of the white distribution. In contrast, the black mean score on, say, the GMAT (for MBA programs) would fall at the 13th percentile among whites.
     
    The median white score would be the 50th percentile of the white distribution by the definition of a median, not the mean.

    Assuming the white score distributions are bell-shaped, the means are likely close to (but not exactly) the 50th percentile, but nothing about the definition of a mean means distributions have to be bell-shaped.

    Sorry to be an asshole about it, but I figured I should bring it up since HBD-denialists are eagle-eyed for minor statistical and factual errors in HBD literature.

    Let’s cut Steve a break here with respect to average vs median. 🙂

    On the other hand, as gman pointed out, that may explain some other facts in this country. When a Steve, Chad, Jose, or Jamal don’t quite get the distinction between average and median correct, but Chan does, it’s not all that surprising that Asians are over-represented by something like 8-9X in technical roles in Silion Valley relative to their overall population percent.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Read my multi-thousand word article from 2009 that I linked to for an explanation of the methodology.
    , @snorlax
    Not Asian, so I guess I'll have to keep my code-monkey/pedantry skills strong! ;)
    , @academic gossip

    When a Steve, Chad, Jose, or Jamal don’t quite get the distinction between average and median correct, but Chan does,
     
    Yan, your own comments here were partly wrong about the average and median, and the commenter you presumed to correct was completely right. And then you make a bigger error with the whopper statistic below.

    Maybe the ability hierarchy works differently than you imagine when test scores are not at stake?


    Asians are over-represented by something like 8-9X in technical roles in Silion Valley relative to their overall population percent.
     
    It is not valid to count adult immigrants as part of the population on which the over-representation is calculated. If you exclude them, there is no way the ratio is as high as 8.
  26. @Yan Shen
    Let's cut Steve a break here with respect to average vs median. :)

    On the other hand, as gman pointed out, that may explain some other facts in this country. When a Steve, Chad, Jose, or Jamal don't quite get the distinction between average and median correct, but Chan does, it's not all that surprising that Asians are over-represented by something like 8-9X in technical roles in Silion Valley relative to their overall population percent.

    Read my multi-thousand word article from 2009 that I linked to for an explanation of the methodology.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    I read your article; you say the same thing about the "definition" of a mean and link to the Wikipedia article on "mean," which, ironically, includes a passage about this very misconception:

    In descriptive statistics, the mean may be confused with the median, mode or mid-range, as any of these may be called an "average" (more formally, a measure of central tendency). The mean of a set of observations is the arithmetic average of the values; however, for skewed distributions, the mean is not necessarily the same as the middle value (median), or the most likely value (mode). For example, mean income is typically skewed upwards by a small number of people with very large incomes, so that the majority have an income lower than the mean. By contrast, the median income is the level at which half the population is below and half is above. The mode income is the most likely income, and favors the larger number of people with lower incomes. While the median and mode are often more intuitive measures for such skewed data, many skewed distributions are in fact best described by their mean, including the exponential and Poisson distributions.
     
    Suppose 100 people take a test.

    20 people all receive a score of 1.
    20 people all receive a score of 2.
    20 people all receive a score of 4.
    20 people all receive a score of 8.
    20 people all receive a score of 16.

    The mean (or average) score is 6.2, but the 50th-percentile (or median) score is 4. In this contrived example, a new test-taker who scored the mean of 6.2 would be at approximately the 60th (61/101) percentile.
  27. @Dr. X

    Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores. Is that an immigrant thing, or are they just not as good with verbal vs. math.
     
    It's the latter -- they're not good at verbal.

    I went to a large state university for graduate school. There was a big Asian (mostly Chinese, but some Korean and Subcontinental) student population, because the institution had made some kind of deal with the Chinese government.

    At a large research-oriented institution, a significant percentage -- perhaps a majority -- of undergraduate classes are taught by graduate students.

    The Asian grad students tended to be concentrated almost wholly in the STEM fields. A very, very comment complaint from American undergraduates taking required math and science courses was that their Asian grad-student instructors "could barely speak English" or were "difficult to understand" in lectures.

    By comparison, most of the European grad students and professors I've met spoke excellent English -- in some cases better then American native-born English-speakers.

    Of course it’s East Asians. South Asians are highly verbal, which is perhaps why they climb the corporate ladder more easily e.g. the number of Indian CEO’s in Silicon Valley vs East Asian.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    South Asians were also colonized by the Brits, the legacy of which even now gives them a verbal advantage in any English-speaking country. (The USA is still English-speaking, sort of.)

    If only these genius South- and East-Asian societies had ever developed the sense to control their populations, perhaps they wouldn't be exporting so many of themselves to other lands.

  28. @Jake
    The truth is racist, as well as sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic, and anti-Zionist.

    It’s almost as if evolution discriminates in the genes it selects, as if discrimination were an element of selection.

  29. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    Is there no more-recent data than 2008?

    The last category is DAT. What’s DAT?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Dental school test.
    , @MEH 0910
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Dat%3F
  30. Asians killing it on Quant! Dis RIBRARY!!!

    • LOL: Negrolphin Pool
  31. Oh wait! Sorry for multiple.comments but Jerry Lewis just died. It would seem there’s some Saileresque wisdom to be mined there. FTR I loved Lewis. Hilarious and wonderful. Thanks big guy.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Jerry Lewis's son went to my Catholic high school, I think. He was a senior when I was a freshman.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Jerry Lewis's son went to my Catholic high school, I think. He was a senior when I was a freshman.
  32. @Yan Shen
    Following up on the HBD point of math/verbal split for East Asians, while it's commonly known that East Asians tend to skew towards STEM and away from the humanities, social sciences, law, etc, even within science East Asians appear to have a clear preference for physical sciences as opposed to biological life sciences. See here.

    http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp9.pdf

    "More strikingly, in 2000 China authored just 0.6 per cent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one per cent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3 per cent of the leading one per cent of papers, half as many as the US – an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing – where China publishes more top one per cent papers than the US – and mathematics (NSF, 2014). China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and to some degree Singapore, have concentrated research development in the physical sciences and related applied fields like engineering, computing and materials. In Korea and Japan this supports advanced manufacturing. China also emphasises research that supports accelerated modernisation: energy, urbanisation, construction, transport and communications. At this stage medicine and life sciences are much weaker."

    Simon Marginson has been following the rise of China/East Asia for a while now and has consistently noted that East Asia tends to skew towards math/computing/engineering/physics/chemistry more so than life sciences/social/sciences humanities, without necessarily realizing the possible HBD explanation behind it.

    I work for a City government institution. Foreign born and many native born Asians account for the majority of our part time employees, but they do absolutely awful on any promotional test for permanent employment. We employ a Chinese-American tech guy who is completely masterful at his job, but could not score well enough to place on an eligible list. He was so good at the job that the “Powers That Be” finally gave him a higher job title and pay because he had been performing above his job title for years and if you “Act” above your job title for over 2 years, you are supposed to get that job.

    After any tests, the Asians tell me that they did not understand “Hypothetical Situation” questions and that the math parts of the tests were easy. Unfortunately, the hypothetical situation questions are based on what we actually have to deal with on a day to day basis.

    • Replies: @Moses
    Euro-American man here. I've lived and worked in Asia for 10 years. Married to an Asian.

    Over 10 years patterns began to reveal themselves and overwhelm my American social conditioning that "everyone is the same." My takeaways:

    East Asians have plenty of brain processing power. Their mean possibly is higher than Euros. They learn established processes quickly. They can apply this knowledge in standard patterns. Hence China's rise in learning and applying technology and business practices from the West.

    The big weak point for Asians is their creative ability and imagination. Imagining possibilities that are different from the present. Applying old practices in novel ways.

    East Asian cities tend to have streets where shops cluster that specialize in one type of good -- aquariums, paper products, bolts and locks, etc. They all copy each other blindly. They are all the same. You will NEVER see a shop that tries to differentiate itself. It never occurs to them to "think different."

    Of course, it doesn't mean there are no creative Asians. It's just that the population means are different. There is zero doubt in my mind that the Euro creativity mean is materially higher than the Asian one.

    I used to think my observations were a product of culture. Recently I've concluded that culture is a product of biology. Asians and Euros are just wired differently, each with strengths and weaknesses.

  33. @Steve Sailer
    Asians have been pulling away from everybody else in SAT scores in this century.

    Interesting how East Asians and South Asians are both pulling away, despite being completely different from each other.

    Or are they really just standing still on account of still having two-parent homes and a view that one should pursue rigorous professions, while whites and others are just falling behind on account of normalizing single motherhood and other SJW dysfunction.

    I wonder if a lot of Asian success can be attributed to less self-sabotage and destruction of the family relative to others, and little more..

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Asian scores have been rising on the SAT, which is engineered to be stable over time.
    , @Desiderius

    I wonder if a lot of Asian success can be attributed to less self-sabotage and destruction of the family relative to others, and little more..
     
    Yeah, a lot of the sabotage I've seen isn't self-sabotage.

    Whites have traditionally done well by creating and maintaining systems for identifying talent and rewarding/promoting achievement. Those systems have been breaking down/turned toward other purposes, especially when it comes to white boys from non-elite (sic) backgrounds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNomhZFaWWI
  34. @Father O'Hara
    Oh wait! Sorry for multiple.comments but Jerry Lewis just died. It would seem there's some Saileresque wisdom to be mined there. FTR I loved Lewis. Hilarious and wonderful. Thanks big guy.

    Jerry Lewis’s son went to my Catholic high school, I think. He was a senior when I was a freshman.

    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    That's just L.A. privilege. You run into A-list actresses at Walgreens and go to high school with the kids of timeless legends.

    I went to high school with a guy who got on American Greed. That's the neatest story I got.
  35. @Father O'Hara
    Oh wait! Sorry for multiple.comments but Jerry Lewis just died. It would seem there's some Saileresque wisdom to be mined there. FTR I loved Lewis. Hilarious and wonderful. Thanks big guy.

    Jerry Lewis’s son went to my Catholic high school, I think. He was a senior when I was a freshman.

  36. @eah
    which I would argue is a huge positive for society

    Not if you're a white parent with bright kids planning to attend an elite university -- by "society" I assume you mean white countries -- if that's the case, they can stay where they are and their home countries can enjoy all the benefits of their presence -- we don't mind.

    No since I live in the US, I’m obviously referring to American society. I mean it’s not like I’m a uh white nationalist masquerading as an American nationalist, supposedly a self-avowed citizenist, but somehow strangely obsessing over the state of every other white country on Earth… (If you ever want a good example of real nationalism as opposed to ethnic nationalism, just look to East Asia.)

    By the way, the math/verbal split for East Asians actually strongly affects how the economies of East Asia are oriented with respect to the economies of the West. As Ron Unz and others have pointed out, East Asian economies are clearly skewed towards advanced manufacturing and tech, i.e. value creation, while the economies of most Western nations skew towards services, i.e. value transference, California tech aside.

    In today’s high globalized economy, you and numerous others are already enjoying the benefits of high quantitative aptitude, even when it’s thousands of miles away!

    • Replies: @Curle
    Which East Asian country is not an ethno-state already? Which East Asian people's are not implicitly (insert name of applicable East Asian tribe/race/nationality) + nationalists already?

    When whites were 90% of the population most of which were generations in this country few felt that defending their culture and heritage against alien interlopers was necessary. Charlottesville proved them wrong. But then again, I doubt the Russians expected to be subjugated by a hostile Obama Coalition of racial fringe groups at the conclusion of the Russian Revolution.

    I say this as someone who lived as a minority in an Asian majority state where ethnic identity was front and center.
  37. @Father O'Hara
    The last category is DAT. What's DAT?

    Dental school test.

    • Replies: @James Richard
    Surely you jest?
    , @Stephen R. Diamond
    Ah! It also stands for Differential Aptitude Test.
  38. @Thomm
    Interesting how East Asians and South Asians are both pulling away, despite being completely different from each other.

    Or are they really just standing still on account of still having two-parent homes and a view that one should pursue rigorous professions, while whites and others are just falling behind on account of normalizing single motherhood and other SJW dysfunction.

    I wonder if a lot of Asian success can be attributed to less self-sabotage and destruction of the family relative to others, and little more..

    Asian scores have been rising on the SAT, which is engineered to be stable over time.

    • Replies: @res

    SAT, which is engineered to be stable over time
     
    It's good to be careful about that assumption. The scoring curve tends to get tweaked whenever they rework the SAT. And that seems to be becoming more frequent (roughly speaking, 1974, 1995, 2005, 2016, with 1995 being the biggest).

    I think your conclusion about Asian scores is a real effect though.
  39. @gman
    More interesting is the fact that Asians are so dominant at the tops of distribution on math and that trend appears to be widening:

    For example on the SAT
    in 2006, an 800 (perfect score) was 98th percentile for Asian Americans
    in 2013, that number was 96th percentile

    http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/CR_M_%20W_PercentileRanksGenderEthnicGroups.pdf
    http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-By-Gender-Ethnicity-2013.pdf

    According to the 2013 report, an Asian American is more likely to score 700+ than an African American is likely to score 500+ on the SAT Math, yet we wonder why there is a disparity in silicon valley.

    Yeah, we pretty much always talk about the black vs white gap in testing in this country, but I would assume that the biggest gaps are probably found on quantitative tests between East Asian males and black females.

    Gender aside, the fact that an Asian American is slightly more likely to score a 700 or higher on the SAT math than a black American is to score above a 500 is truly staggering…

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    I wonder how long it'll be until negroes start focusing their rage & violence upon asians? Probably won't happen, except in the sense that negroes focus their rage & violence upon everyone--including negroes.
  40. @keuril

    Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores
     
    There's no way Asians as a group are on a level playing field with whites when it comes to verbal. It's a huge advantage to have two college educated native English speakers as parents. In this respect, white test takers, as a group, are advantaged in comparison to all other groups, but Asians in particular.

    Has very little to do with it. My parents were neither college educated nor native English speakers. But they did give me genetic advantages which were much more important than the former. Asian brain is just not as well set up for verbal skills, tilted more toward math. After 3 generations in the US, it will still be the same.

    • Replies: @keuril

    My parents were neither college educated nor native English speakers... Asian brain is just not as well set up for verbal skills
     
    Irrelevant. You are cherrypicking a personal anecdote to make an argument about the average verbal intelligence of entire populations.
  41. @lavoisier
    Steve,

    If blacks are scoring around the 10% level relative to whites this would suggest a gap of even more than one standard deviation on many of these tests.

    I find this quite interesting in that the gap may actually increase at the higher levels of cognitive competition?

    I would have predicted a lower gap at the higher levels of cognitive competition.

    The Gaussian Distribution, which the Bell Curve roughly approximates is a non-linear function therefore differences in the center of distribution between different groups will result in increased differences as you go farther out towards the tails. Therefore if a higher IQ is required to achieve a 50th percentile score on a certain test then the ratios between different groups get wider as the required intelligence goes further out on the curve.
    For example, if we accept for argument the distribution curve, and the average and standard deviation that are commonly used, what is the percentage of Blacks achieving a certain score compared to Whites :
    IQ 100 or higher : Whites 50%, Blacks 16% Black to White ratio : 32%
    IQ 115 or higher : Whites 16%, Blacks 2.28% Black to White ratio : 14%
    IQ 130 or higher : Whites 2.28%, Blacks 0.135%% Black to White ratio : 6%
    IQ 145 or higher : Whites 0.135%, Blacks 0.003%%% Black to White ratio : 3%

    • Agree: James Richard
    • Replies: @lavoisier
    Thanks for that.
    , @res
    Good point, but worth noting that your numbers assume equal White and Black populations. For anyone who wants to do these calculations themselves see http://emilkirkegaard.dk/understanding_statistics/?app=tail_effects which also allows changing the relative population sizes. The defaults there match your "distribution curve, and the average and standard deviation that are commonly used" and use equal population sizes with a threshold of 130 (i.e. replicate your third case).

    If we change the White/Black populations to 0.7/0.13 (roughly current US proportions) we get:
    IQ 130 or higher : Whites 2.28%, Blacks 0.135%% Black to White ratio : 6% Black to White ratio observed in the actual population : 1.1%
    That page would refer to the last number as percent Black. I think this general idea is easier to think about as what that page refers to as ratio: 90 Whites above that threshold for every Black. For a 145 threshold that becomes 229.
  42. TL;DR: check out the link middle of the below

    Looking at data for grad school tests like these are even more hopelessly screwed up by selection biases, conflated by non-American citizens, and so forth that the desire to use them offhand for propaganda purposes should be ignored. Keep in mind that meaningful proportions of test takers in America/attending American educational institutions will still be non-citizens, this isn’t usually recorded by the testing organizations themselves, and it’s worse at university than high school level, where there are still notable effects for non-citizens. For instance, as with SAT, ACT, AP exams etc some tens of thousands of Hispanics in the data may not be American citizens and those are underage attendees of US high schools.

    Since citizens and non-citizens among other similar distinctions are treated quite differently in application, admission, government grant and loan processes and whatnot all evidence of whatever you’re looking for (ie. racism, disparate impact) is hard to confirm.

    At the grad school level there are some counter-intuitive results I’ve already seen and pointed out myself on occasion, or at least nobody ever seems to know them despite whatever rant they will go on about race or something. For instance, Asian-American citizens students are actually outnumbered by white American-citizen students (remember, tons of grad students are aliens) by about 10-1 in various PhD fields, but this is almost never correctly reported or understood because non-citizens get lumped in with the same race as citizens.

    Anyway, I’m stopping by to actually point out a source at the high school level that “leaked” comprehensive data usually not available and that everyone here might have missed. I’ve never seen it referenced before on any Sailer-sphere site or anything, though it contains an extremely relevant snapshot, appearing to be based on all available data for a whole year’s SAT-taking cohort. I was surprised when I came across it one day. This is possibly the only source of its kind in public existence, interesting because the creators of this content somehow must not have known what is taboo, the present day “woke” people getting ahold of such raw data by race and gender would be a cataclysm (published in 2005 also). Even though they contain no privacy violations or any such concerns, exact counts of student scores instead of roughly rounded off percentages or group averages or whatever are almost never, ever published by race, gender etc… This is despite what would be of extreme value to researchers, given the comprehensiveness and broad coverage of the whole country of high school standardized exams these days. A test like the SAT reasonably covers the supermajority of all potentially college bound students while self-selection for something like a given AP test subject is far worse.

    So we’re looking at table 1 in particular of this document, though table 2 is relevant to recent events too (“Google guy” and all, as what do you blame on colleges/corporations when things are already baked in at an earlier time):
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/PICMINSAT.pdf

    Not surprisingly, this confirms some isolated trends most already know from similar sources (eg I believe the JBHE once somehow obtained data for one year showing only a few hundred black students had high SAT scores, in the mid-700s or something on a given section, across the whole US, but that was one report for one racial group with no other access to lots of data). Likewise there are occasionally very isolated reports of “girls in STEM” or whatever but lacking such comprehensive data. Raw AP score distributions are avaliable on archive for many years and I usually considered those one of the base sources for examining pipeline, bias, etc… issues for US students, by looking at the counts of high-scoring AP students as a proxy for whatever else by race and gender and other characteristics. For instance, by the present year there are roughly 4-5 times as many white students with highest scores on a given AP English, History, etc… exam compared to any other demographic group, which as a quick sanity check lines up with the above. High SAT and AP scores are reasonably well-correlated of course, but I’ve never seen another SAT/ACT etc… source like the one above, so relying on AP scores instead was always like pulling teeth

    Of course, in five minutes the testing service (or any of their rival nonprofits, the ACT people or anyone else too) could publish a comparable table of results to table 1 in the above for every year through whatever is latest, say 2014, and they might even be able to narrow down data for US residents, public versus private high schools, whatever, but they’ll never do that unless coerced. The report linked above clearly is not intended for the purpose of actually considering and comparing other outcomes, potential racial discrimation and whatever, but it blows wide open a lot of vague wrong hypotheses.

    What should the Harvard class of roughly 2001 have looked like, “hypothetically by pure merit” after all?

    Obviously some savvy commenters here would want to look at even better data than just 90th+ percentile (I agree, would be great to have 95 or something too) and there are a few methodogical quibbles. There will be some changes from changes in total population demographic trends from 2001 to the present day, and the “doubling down” of two Reading+Writing SAT sections which was held to have some benefit on female scores as compared to male scores happened for a later interval of years, but still, this is gold standard SAT data. Remember that SAT scores broadly reported by various institutions, like a college’s own reporting, can horribly “messed up” by various other practices like superscoring, self-selection and self-volunteering. (If you want to be, say, comparing college A to college B, despite whatever c**p US NEWS WR puts out, college A could superscore tests while B could not, optional versus mandatory choice of reporting SAT vs ACT and different number of students doing each makes data easy to game, as per Campbell’s law). None of that here.

    In other education news, hilariously to anyone who already cynically knew it, a recent Raj Chetty et al paper showed even more bias towards the top 1% of family wealth in Ivy League admissions etc… than previous sources and media reports believed, a few interesting things they accidentally reveal in their data if one looks closely too (like confirming Princeton-mom style claims of marriage premiums among the upper class, because Chetty in imo an egregious violation of all common sense and ethics by those behind this got tens of millions of Americans full tax records, SS numbers, whatever else). But I’ll stay on topic here.

    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for that link. I downloaded it a few months ago, but can't remember where I found it (I would have guessed here, but don't see it in a search). It is a great source.

    Some other good sources in this vein:

    Why Has Black-White Skill Convergence Stopped? http://www.nber.org/papers/w11090

    THE RECENTERING OF SAT® SCALES AND ITS EFFECTS ON SCORE DISTRIBUTIONS AND SCORE INTERPRETATIONS
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2333-8504.2002.tb01871.x/full
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf
    I think this is the definitive reference for the 1995 recentering, but it also has score distribution histograms (50 point buckets) for the 1990 reference group by both race and sex. I think this nicely satisfies your: "Obviously some savvy commenters here would want to look at even better data than just 90th+ percentile (I agree, would be great to have 95 or something too)" though the data is over 25 years old at this point. Table 1 also has percentages for different score thresholds by sex (trigger warning for those who think there are no male/female differences at the high end for math skills) but they were not crass enough to do the same by race (can be estimated from the histograms though).

    Also http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scores-race-everything-you-ever/ and the linked blog post.
    , @Gringo
    (eg I believe the JBHE once somehow obtained data for one year showing only a few hundred black students had high SAT scores, in the mid-700s or something on a given section, across the whole US
    JBHE: The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test.

    Let's be more specific about the SAT racial gap among high-scoring applicants. In 2005, 153,132 African Americans took the SAT test....
    If we raise the top-scoring threshold to students scoring 750 or above on both the math and verbal SAT — a level equal to the mean score of students entering the nation's most selective colleges such as Harvard, Princeton, and CalTech — we find that in the entire country 244 blacks scored 750 or above on the math SAT and 363 black students scored 750 or above on the verbal portion of the test. Nationwide, 33,841 students scored at least 750 on the math test and 30,479 scored at least 750 on the verbal SAT. Therefore, black students made up 0.7 percent of the test takers who scored 750 or above on the math test and 1.2 percent of all test takers who scored 750 or above on the verbal section.

     
    I compared this to my high school, which admittedly did not house an average population. In my high school class of about 180, I can come up with 9 people of a class of 180 who got 750 or above on the Math SAT. Compare that to 244 out of 150,000 blacks. Not an encouraging comparison
  43. It is extremely important to point out that these are all grad-school tests, and hence most of the Asians taking it are foreign students, not Asian-Americans born here.

    Among Asian-Americans born here, the verbal deficit will certainly close and they will excel in that as well.

    It is impressive that verbal numbers are this high for a group where the primary language is Chinese.

    This is why the SAT is a much better test to measure what 2nd-gen Asian-Americans will do in America long-term.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Among Asian-Americans born here, the verbal deficit will certainly close and they will excel in that as well...

    This is why the SAT is a much better test to measure what 2nd-gen Asian-Americans will do in America long-term.
     
    La Griffe du Lion did an analysis of this with the 1995 SAT data: http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm

    Look at APPENDIX B. SAT 1995 DATA AND GRAPHS

    1995 SAT Scores vs. Family Income
    Estimated Family Income White Asian
    Verbal
    $0-10k 409 343
    $10k-$20k 418 363
    $20k-$30k 428 397
    $30k-$40k 433 415
    $40k-$50k 439 432
    $50k-$60k 446 444
    $60k-$70k 453 453
    $70k plus 475 476

    As you can see, there is a sizable gap in favor of whites at the lower income level, but as income level rises, Asians reach parity (right at $60k-$70K mark). My speculation is that the higher income bracket for Asians is skewed toward American-born. It may also be skewed toward South Asians and East Asians and less toward Southeast Asians (who are the low performers).

    And, yes, the highest bracket ($70K plus) blacks score lower 442 (M) 407 (V) than lowest bracket ($0-10K) whites 460 (M) 409 (V).
  44. @Marco
    Interesting.

    I'd like to know if they included Brazilians as hispanics in this. We are not hispanics but we are latinos and sometimes people count us as hispanics. I'd guess our average would be bigger than what the table shows for hispanics and mexican-americans.

    In my case, I'm a mixed-race Brazilian (2 southern-european grandparents, 1 mulatto grandparent, 1 "caboclo" (white+indian) grandparent) and my verbal GRE is in the 95th percentile and my quant is in the 64th. Good enough for a English Phd at Harvard, but not enough for a Master in Engineering at Stanford.

    Maybe I'm in the extreme of the normal distribution for latinos, but I'm surprised by how low the scores are for the hispanics and mexican-americans.

    In America, you would just be called ‘Hispanic’.

    If the number of Brazilians in America rose to 5M or more, then a separate designation is possible, but since the number is far below that, there just isn’t a distinction.

    Hey, at least you are still Catholic, have the same genetic mix as many Hispanics, and the Portuguese language is very similar to Spanish. The real misleading designation is ‘Asian’, where multiple races, religions, language families (let along languages), etc. are lumped in one.

    A Sri Lankan and a Japanese are both called ‘Asian’ in the US stats, while the US average Joe doesn’t even know what a Sri Lankan is..

  45. Black underperformance is truly shocking. 13th percentile, even though US blacks are 20% white!!

    Jesus Christ.

    I am of the view that if you measure genetic distance, there really are just two races : Blacks and non-Blacks. There are various subraces within each race (Khoi, Bantu, etc. in ‘Blacks’ and Europeans, Yellows, South Asians, etc. in ‘non-Blacks’).

    But blacks really are laggards by a distance so large that some extremely un-PC questions can’t help but arise.

    Only WNs are as inept as blacks..

    • Replies: @Lurker

    Only WNs are as inept as blacks.
     
    Really? You can back that up can you?

    Are you that mythical creature (none seen in captivity) - someone who can explain why whites should become marginalised minorities in nations they created.
    , @anonotron
    "if you measure genetic distance"

    Now that people are able to spend $100 to get their ancestry done, there should be more work done in social sciences in taking into account this information. While one could probably do the analysis as you describe and focus on two groups, it would be more interesting to take a hierarchical analysis, whereby the average of IQ per haplogroup is estimated, taking into account the relationships between different haplogroups (i.e. haplogroup R1a depends on R1 which depends on R).
  46. @Steve Sailer
    Dental school test.

    Surely you jest?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    No.
  47. @James Richard
    Surely you jest?

    No.

    • Replies: @James Richard
    I can't imagine why they don't just use the MCAT.
  48. mean percentiles?

    Does the two numbers 50% and 13% from first row imply that black mean is 26% of white mean?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    No.
  49. @Yan Shen
    Let's cut Steve a break here with respect to average vs median. :)

    On the other hand, as gman pointed out, that may explain some other facts in this country. When a Steve, Chad, Jose, or Jamal don't quite get the distinction between average and median correct, but Chan does, it's not all that surprising that Asians are over-represented by something like 8-9X in technical roles in Silion Valley relative to their overall population percent.

    Not Asian, so I guess I’ll have to keep my code-monkey/pedantry skills strong! 😉

  50. @Steve Sailer
    I think some of what this table shows has to do with ego and ambitiousness: blacks tend to be well-endowed ego-wise, so they think it likely they can become a lawyer. Mexican-Americans, in contrast, aren't as ambitious, so the Mexican-Americans who take the LSAT have a more realistic view on average of their chances of scoring well.

    Anyway, I think I wrote up a lot of my speculations about the data in my 2009 VDARE article, so I'd encourage anybody interested to start there.

    What makes no sense to me is the test is purely voluntary. Why take a test you are unprepared for and know it. The black students must have taken sample exams. Shame on the Universities they attend for letting them as a group take a test they are unprepared for.

  51. @Steve Sailer
    No.

    I can’t imagine why they don’t just use the MCAT.

  52. @Steve Sailer
    Read my multi-thousand word article from 2009 that I linked to for an explanation of the methodology.

    I read your article; you say the same thing about the “definition” of a mean and link to the Wikipedia article on “mean,” which, ironically, includes a passage about this very misconception:

    In descriptive statistics, the mean may be confused with the median, mode or mid-range, as any of these may be called an “average” (more formally, a measure of central tendency). The mean of a set of observations is the arithmetic average of the values; however, for skewed distributions, the mean is not necessarily the same as the middle value (median), or the most likely value (mode). For example, mean income is typically skewed upwards by a small number of people with very large incomes, so that the majority have an income lower than the mean. By contrast, the median income is the level at which half the population is below and half is above. The mode income is the most likely income, and favors the larger number of people with lower incomes. While the median and mode are often more intuitive measures for such skewed data, many skewed distributions are in fact best described by their mean, including the exponential and Poisson distributions.

    Suppose 100 people take a test.

    20 people all receive a score of 1.
    20 people all receive a score of 2.
    20 people all receive a score of 4.
    20 people all receive a score of 8.
    20 people all receive a score of 16.

    The mean (or average) score is 6.2, but the 50th-percentile (or median) score is 4. In this contrived example, a new test-taker who scored the mean of 6.2 would be at approximately the 60th (61/101) percentile.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Yeah I mean honestly we're kind of splitting hairs here. Steve's methodology is fine enough. Assume for convenience that the scores for whites are normally distributed around the listed mean with the listed SD, see where along that curve the means for the other ethnic groups would fall.

    If we're being pedantic here, sure the actual distribution of white scores probably isn't perfectly normal and in general unless the distribution is perfectly symmetric, the mean isn't equal to the 50th percentile/median by definition, since most distributions are skewed one way or another.

    So the analysis is fine. It's just that that one statement was mathematically incorrect and the assumption of normally distributed scores was kind of implicit, but reasonable.

    , @snorlax
    Again, not trying to be assholish or argumentative; I'm just thinking about how the more intellectually-honest* HBD-denialists like to point to a passage in The Bell Curve where Murray gives a slightly-incorrect definition of standard deviation or p or something (I don't quite remember) and claim this error is so glaring it discredits all of the statistical analysis in the book.

    I've heard that this anecdote about "getting statistics wrong" has become a nationally-popular topic for freshman stats lectures (see, anti-racist math is a thing!), which is probably why the Middlebury mob was so exercised about (i.e. had heard of) him.

    *Relatively-speaking, of course. As in, at least their criticism is fact-based rather than purely-emotional/namecalling, and supported with an in-context textual citation of the work they're criticizing.
    , @Anonymous
    We know the distribution isn't like that -- it's a normal distribution by definition, and mean = median also following by definition -- because (from the VDARE article)

    The idiosyncratic scoring systems do make them seem impenetrable to outsiders, but fortunately, they are all graded on the bell curve
     
    Now you have to prove/disprove that the white subsample must also be normally distributed...
  53. @Thomm
    It is extremely important to point out that these are all grad-school tests, and hence most of the Asians taking it are foreign students, not Asian-Americans born here.

    Among Asian-Americans born here, the verbal deficit will certainly close and they will excel in that as well.

    It is impressive that verbal numbers are this high for a group where the primary language is Chinese.

    This is why the SAT is a much better test to measure what 2nd-gen Asian-Americans will do in America long-term.

    Among Asian-Americans born here, the verbal deficit will certainly close and they will excel in that as well…

    This is why the SAT is a much better test to measure what 2nd-gen Asian-Americans will do in America long-term.

    La Griffe du Lion did an analysis of this with the 1995 SAT data: http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm

    Look at APPENDIX B. SAT 1995 DATA AND GRAPHS

    1995 SAT Scores vs. Family Income
    Estimated Family Income White Asian
    Verbal
    $0-10k 409 343
    $10k-$20k 418 363
    $20k-$30k 428 397
    $30k-$40k 433 415
    $40k-$50k 439 432
    $50k-$60k 446 444
    $60k-$70k 453 453
    $70k plus 475 476

    As you can see, there is a sizable gap in favor of whites at the lower income level, but as income level rises, Asians reach parity (right at $60k-$70K mark). My speculation is that the higher income bracket for Asians is skewed toward American-born. It may also be skewed toward South Asians and East Asians and less toward Southeast Asians (who are the low performers).

    And, yes, the highest bracket ($70K plus) blacks score lower 442 (M) 407 (V) than lowest bracket ($0-10K) whites 460 (M) 409 (V).

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Thomm
    Twinkie,

    Yes. Remember that even today, only 25% of Asian-American adults are born in the US. The other 75 % are still newcomers. So it will take time for a true 'Asian-American' dataset to mature. This is before even getting into the huge income variance within Asians (Indians at the top, Hmongs, etc. at the bottom).

    Most blacks who earned $70K at the time of your dataset are fat black women in make-work government jobs, or their corporate HR counterparts. Today they are paid $150K to be a 'Director of Diversity' or something. The black woman in the corporate HR department exchanges endless paperwork with her govt. counterpart. Neither is necessary.

    If not for massive government fiat, there would be no black middle class.
  54. @Twinkie

    Among Asian-Americans born here, the verbal deficit will certainly close and they will excel in that as well...

    This is why the SAT is a much better test to measure what 2nd-gen Asian-Americans will do in America long-term.
     
    La Griffe du Lion did an analysis of this with the 1995 SAT data: http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm

    Look at APPENDIX B. SAT 1995 DATA AND GRAPHS

    1995 SAT Scores vs. Family Income
    Estimated Family Income White Asian
    Verbal
    $0-10k 409 343
    $10k-$20k 418 363
    $20k-$30k 428 397
    $30k-$40k 433 415
    $40k-$50k 439 432
    $50k-$60k 446 444
    $60k-$70k 453 453
    $70k plus 475 476

    As you can see, there is a sizable gap in favor of whites at the lower income level, but as income level rises, Asians reach parity (right at $60k-$70K mark). My speculation is that the higher income bracket for Asians is skewed toward American-born. It may also be skewed toward South Asians and East Asians and less toward Southeast Asians (who are the low performers).

    And, yes, the highest bracket ($70K plus) blacks score lower 442 (M) 407 (V) than lowest bracket ($0-10K) whites 460 (M) 409 (V).

    Twinkie,

    Yes. Remember that even today, only 25% of Asian-American adults are born in the US. The other 75 % are still newcomers. So it will take time for a true ‘Asian-American’ dataset to mature. This is before even getting into the huge income variance within Asians (Indians at the top, Hmongs, etc. at the bottom).

    Most blacks who earned $70K at the time of your dataset are fat black women in make-work government jobs, or their corporate HR counterparts. Today they are paid $150K to be a ‘Director of Diversity’ or something. The black woman in the corporate HR department exchanges endless paperwork with her govt. counterpart. Neither is necessary.

    If not for massive government fiat, there would be no black middle class.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    $70K
     
    $70K PLUS. That is everything from $70K to gazillion.

    The point is that upscale black kids score lower than dirt poor white kids.
    , @Desiderius

    If not for massive government fiat, there would be no black middle class.
     
    There was a pretty good one developing in the early/mid 20th Century before LBJ shat upon it.
  55. @snorlax
    I read your article; you say the same thing about the "definition" of a mean and link to the Wikipedia article on "mean," which, ironically, includes a passage about this very misconception:

    In descriptive statistics, the mean may be confused with the median, mode or mid-range, as any of these may be called an "average" (more formally, a measure of central tendency). The mean of a set of observations is the arithmetic average of the values; however, for skewed distributions, the mean is not necessarily the same as the middle value (median), or the most likely value (mode). For example, mean income is typically skewed upwards by a small number of people with very large incomes, so that the majority have an income lower than the mean. By contrast, the median income is the level at which half the population is below and half is above. The mode income is the most likely income, and favors the larger number of people with lower incomes. While the median and mode are often more intuitive measures for such skewed data, many skewed distributions are in fact best described by their mean, including the exponential and Poisson distributions.
     
    Suppose 100 people take a test.

    20 people all receive a score of 1.
    20 people all receive a score of 2.
    20 people all receive a score of 4.
    20 people all receive a score of 8.
    20 people all receive a score of 16.

    The mean (or average) score is 6.2, but the 50th-percentile (or median) score is 4. In this contrived example, a new test-taker who scored the mean of 6.2 would be at approximately the 60th (61/101) percentile.

    Yeah I mean honestly we’re kind of splitting hairs here. Steve’s methodology is fine enough. Assume for convenience that the scores for whites are normally distributed around the listed mean with the listed SD, see where along that curve the means for the other ethnic groups would fall.

    If we’re being pedantic here, sure the actual distribution of white scores probably isn’t perfectly normal and in general unless the distribution is perfectly symmetric, the mean isn’t equal to the 50th percentile/median by definition, since most distributions are skewed one way or another.

    So the analysis is fine. It’s just that that one statement was mathematically incorrect and the assumption of normally distributed scores was kind of implicit, but reasonable.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Should add that there are some rare exceptions for asymmetric distributions where uh mean = median, but when the distribution is symmetric, mean always equals median? So I think maybe it's right to say if distribution is symmetric mean = median, but not if and only if. Something like that haha.. >.<
  56. @Yan Shen
    Yeah I mean honestly we're kind of splitting hairs here. Steve's methodology is fine enough. Assume for convenience that the scores for whites are normally distributed around the listed mean with the listed SD, see where along that curve the means for the other ethnic groups would fall.

    If we're being pedantic here, sure the actual distribution of white scores probably isn't perfectly normal and in general unless the distribution is perfectly symmetric, the mean isn't equal to the 50th percentile/median by definition, since most distributions are skewed one way or another.

    So the analysis is fine. It's just that that one statement was mathematically incorrect and the assumption of normally distributed scores was kind of implicit, but reasonable.

    Should add that there are some rare exceptions for asymmetric distributions where uh mean = median, but when the distribution is symmetric, mean always equals median? So I think maybe it’s right to say if distribution is symmetric mean = median, but not if and only if. Something like that haha.. >.<

  57. @Thomm
    Twinkie,

    Yes. Remember that even today, only 25% of Asian-American adults are born in the US. The other 75 % are still newcomers. So it will take time for a true 'Asian-American' dataset to mature. This is before even getting into the huge income variance within Asians (Indians at the top, Hmongs, etc. at the bottom).

    Most blacks who earned $70K at the time of your dataset are fat black women in make-work government jobs, or their corporate HR counterparts. Today they are paid $150K to be a 'Director of Diversity' or something. The black woman in the corporate HR department exchanges endless paperwork with her govt. counterpart. Neither is necessary.

    If not for massive government fiat, there would be no black middle class.

    $70K

    $70K PLUS. That is everything from $70K to gazillion.

    The point is that upscale black kids score lower than dirt poor white kids.

  58. @snorlax
    I read your article; you say the same thing about the "definition" of a mean and link to the Wikipedia article on "mean," which, ironically, includes a passage about this very misconception:

    In descriptive statistics, the mean may be confused with the median, mode or mid-range, as any of these may be called an "average" (more formally, a measure of central tendency). The mean of a set of observations is the arithmetic average of the values; however, for skewed distributions, the mean is not necessarily the same as the middle value (median), or the most likely value (mode). For example, mean income is typically skewed upwards by a small number of people with very large incomes, so that the majority have an income lower than the mean. By contrast, the median income is the level at which half the population is below and half is above. The mode income is the most likely income, and favors the larger number of people with lower incomes. While the median and mode are often more intuitive measures for such skewed data, many skewed distributions are in fact best described by their mean, including the exponential and Poisson distributions.
     
    Suppose 100 people take a test.

    20 people all receive a score of 1.
    20 people all receive a score of 2.
    20 people all receive a score of 4.
    20 people all receive a score of 8.
    20 people all receive a score of 16.

    The mean (or average) score is 6.2, but the 50th-percentile (or median) score is 4. In this contrived example, a new test-taker who scored the mean of 6.2 would be at approximately the 60th (61/101) percentile.

    Again, not trying to be assholish or argumentative; I’m just thinking about how the more intellectually-honest* HBD-denialists like to point to a passage in The Bell Curve where Murray gives a slightly-incorrect definition of standard deviation or p or something (I don’t quite remember) and claim this error is so glaring it discredits all of the statistical analysis in the book.

    I’ve heard that this anecdote about “getting statistics wrong” has become a nationally-popular topic for freshman stats lectures (see, anti-racist math is a thing!), which is probably why the Middlebury mob was so exercised about (i.e. had heard of) him.

    *Relatively-speaking, of course. As in, at least their criticism is fact-based rather than purely-emotional/namecalling, and supported with an in-context textual citation of the work they’re criticizing.

    • Replies: @Curle
    I'm curious how you would describe the results (wildly over-affirmed by Politifacts) discussed here.

    This 'study' is really making the rounds but it's methodology and conclusions seem odd. It at first suggested that blacks received 50% fewer callbacks for identical resumes, later modified to 33%, but 94% of resumes, black or white sounding, received no callback. In other words, out of 5000 resumes sent around 160 Gregs and Emily's received callbacks whereas only 82 Lakishas and Jamal's received callbacks. There was no control group for downmarket white names.

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/
  59. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @snorlax
    I read your article; you say the same thing about the "definition" of a mean and link to the Wikipedia article on "mean," which, ironically, includes a passage about this very misconception:

    In descriptive statistics, the mean may be confused with the median, mode or mid-range, as any of these may be called an "average" (more formally, a measure of central tendency). The mean of a set of observations is the arithmetic average of the values; however, for skewed distributions, the mean is not necessarily the same as the middle value (median), or the most likely value (mode). For example, mean income is typically skewed upwards by a small number of people with very large incomes, so that the majority have an income lower than the mean. By contrast, the median income is the level at which half the population is below and half is above. The mode income is the most likely income, and favors the larger number of people with lower incomes. While the median and mode are often more intuitive measures for such skewed data, many skewed distributions are in fact best described by their mean, including the exponential and Poisson distributions.
     
    Suppose 100 people take a test.

    20 people all receive a score of 1.
    20 people all receive a score of 2.
    20 people all receive a score of 4.
    20 people all receive a score of 8.
    20 people all receive a score of 16.

    The mean (or average) score is 6.2, but the 50th-percentile (or median) score is 4. In this contrived example, a new test-taker who scored the mean of 6.2 would be at approximately the 60th (61/101) percentile.

    We know the distribution isn’t like that — it’s a normal distribution by definition, and mean = median also following by definition — because (from the VDARE article)

    The idiosyncratic scoring systems do make them seem impenetrable to outsiders, but fortunately, they are all graded on the bell curve

    Now you have to prove/disprove that the white subsample must also be normally distributed…

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    I don't think the tests are scaled to ensure that resulting scores are perfectly normal for a given test on some date. (I know the links below address specifically the SAT and ACT.)

    http://www.compassprep.com/how-to-score-the-sat-and-act-curving-scaling-and-equating/

    https://www.veritasprep.com/blog/2013/11/in-which-month-is-the-sat-curve-the-easiest/

    "Have you ever had that one student in your math class who should have probably just graduated from high school after sophomore year and just gone straight to college? For whatever reason, be it genetics, excessive studying or pagan witchcraft, this student always ruins the curve on the exams by getting an unusually high score, bringing everyone else’s grades down. Let’s call this hypothetical person, Steve.

    Wouldn’t it be awful to take the SAT on a date when 1,000 Steves are also taking it? What if they all score perfect scores and ruin the curve on the SAT? Maybe it’s better to take the SAT during a month when there are far fewer Steves around so the curve is easier, right? Well, every year, we hear from students trying to decide whether to take the huge October SAT administration or defer it to smaller administrations in November, March and May when the curve might be easier.

    However, this strategy is completely useless and simply does not make sense if you think about it. There is no such thing as an “SAT Curve” the way you might think about grading curves in your high school classes. An unusual spike in high-scorers will not tank the scores of average students and a slew of dunces will not boost others scores either.

    Since the SAT is used as an objective admissions tool for colleges to evaluate applicants, it has to remain consistent between tests so that an SAT score from a test taken in May can be compared to one taken in October. The SAT would not be very useful if it had variation from the body of students who take the test on any given administration."

    Hence if you look at an actual sample of however many hundred thousand test scores on some given date for some subject for a specific ethnic group, it's not likely that the actual distribution is perfectly normal.

    I think what Snorlax is harping on though is the actual claim that mean by definition equals 50th percentile, which is only true in certain cases.

  60. @Thomm
    Interesting how East Asians and South Asians are both pulling away, despite being completely different from each other.

    Or are they really just standing still on account of still having two-parent homes and a view that one should pursue rigorous professions, while whites and others are just falling behind on account of normalizing single motherhood and other SJW dysfunction.

    I wonder if a lot of Asian success can be attributed to less self-sabotage and destruction of the family relative to others, and little more..

    I wonder if a lot of Asian success can be attributed to less self-sabotage and destruction of the family relative to others, and little more..

    Yeah, a lot of the sabotage I’ve seen isn’t self-sabotage.

    Whites have traditionally done well by creating and maintaining systems for identifying talent and rewarding/promoting achievement. Those systems have been breaking down/turned toward other purposes, especially when it comes to white boys from non-elite (sic) backgrounds.

  61. @Anonymous
    We know the distribution isn't like that -- it's a normal distribution by definition, and mean = median also following by definition -- because (from the VDARE article)

    The idiosyncratic scoring systems do make them seem impenetrable to outsiders, but fortunately, they are all graded on the bell curve
     
    Now you have to prove/disprove that the white subsample must also be normally distributed...

    I don’t think the tests are scaled to ensure that resulting scores are perfectly normal for a given test on some date. (I know the links below address specifically the SAT and ACT.)

    http://www.compassprep.com/how-to-score-the-sat-and-act-curving-scaling-and-equating/

    https://www.veritasprep.com/blog/2013/11/in-which-month-is-the-sat-curve-the-easiest/

    “Have you ever had that one student in your math class who should have probably just graduated from high school after sophomore year and just gone straight to college? For whatever reason, be it genetics, excessive studying or pagan witchcraft, this student always ruins the curve on the exams by getting an unusually high score, bringing everyone else’s grades down. Let’s call this hypothetical person, Steve.

    Wouldn’t it be awful to take the SAT on a date when 1,000 Steves are also taking it? What if they all score perfect scores and ruin the curve on the SAT? Maybe it’s better to take the SAT during a month when there are far fewer Steves around so the curve is easier, right? Well, every year, we hear from students trying to decide whether to take the huge October SAT administration or defer it to smaller administrations in November, March and May when the curve might be easier.

    However, this strategy is completely useless and simply does not make sense if you think about it. There is no such thing as an “SAT Curve” the way you might think about grading curves in your high school classes. An unusual spike in high-scorers will not tank the scores of average students and a slew of dunces will not boost others scores either.

    Since the SAT is used as an objective admissions tool for colleges to evaluate applicants, it has to remain consistent between tests so that an SAT score from a test taken in May can be compared to one taken in October. The SAT would not be very useful if it had variation from the body of students who take the test on any given administration.”

    Hence if you look at an actual sample of however many hundred thousand test scores on some given date for some subject for a specific ethnic group, it’s not likely that the actual distribution is perfectly normal.

    I think what Snorlax is harping on though is the actual claim that mean by definition equals 50th percentile, which is only true in certain cases.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    http://www.mba.com/us/the-gmat-exam/gmat-exam-scores/your-score-report/what-percentile-rankings-mean.aspx

    For overall GMAT scores, if you click on the expand view button, it seems like the average score of 551 between 2013-2015 is between 43rd and 46th percentile. So median higher than mean, which means that its skewed left with really low scores dragging that shit down...
  62. @Thomm
    Twinkie,

    Yes. Remember that even today, only 25% of Asian-American adults are born in the US. The other 75 % are still newcomers. So it will take time for a true 'Asian-American' dataset to mature. This is before even getting into the huge income variance within Asians (Indians at the top, Hmongs, etc. at the bottom).

    Most blacks who earned $70K at the time of your dataset are fat black women in make-work government jobs, or their corporate HR counterparts. Today they are paid $150K to be a 'Director of Diversity' or something. The black woman in the corporate HR department exchanges endless paperwork with her govt. counterpart. Neither is necessary.

    If not for massive government fiat, there would be no black middle class.

    If not for massive government fiat, there would be no black middle class.

    There was a pretty good one developing in the early/mid 20th Century before LBJ shat upon it.

    • Agree: lavoisier
    • Replies: @Thomm

    There was a pretty good one developing in the early/mid 20th Century before LBJ shat upon it.
     
    If you have some truly unbiased datapoints about that, I would love to see it.

    Partly because the central belief of HBD people is that blacks have never been able to succeed in creating a decent society anywhere ever.

    If what you say is true, there may be very-long-term hope for US blacks yet if a miracle of shedding off government chains happens.

    Otherwise, the Detroit = Haiti = Zimbabwe meme is hard to rebut....
  63. @Yan Shen
    I don't think the tests are scaled to ensure that resulting scores are perfectly normal for a given test on some date. (I know the links below address specifically the SAT and ACT.)

    http://www.compassprep.com/how-to-score-the-sat-and-act-curving-scaling-and-equating/

    https://www.veritasprep.com/blog/2013/11/in-which-month-is-the-sat-curve-the-easiest/

    "Have you ever had that one student in your math class who should have probably just graduated from high school after sophomore year and just gone straight to college? For whatever reason, be it genetics, excessive studying or pagan witchcraft, this student always ruins the curve on the exams by getting an unusually high score, bringing everyone else’s grades down. Let’s call this hypothetical person, Steve.

    Wouldn’t it be awful to take the SAT on a date when 1,000 Steves are also taking it? What if they all score perfect scores and ruin the curve on the SAT? Maybe it’s better to take the SAT during a month when there are far fewer Steves around so the curve is easier, right? Well, every year, we hear from students trying to decide whether to take the huge October SAT administration or defer it to smaller administrations in November, March and May when the curve might be easier.

    However, this strategy is completely useless and simply does not make sense if you think about it. There is no such thing as an “SAT Curve” the way you might think about grading curves in your high school classes. An unusual spike in high-scorers will not tank the scores of average students and a slew of dunces will not boost others scores either.

    Since the SAT is used as an objective admissions tool for colleges to evaluate applicants, it has to remain consistent between tests so that an SAT score from a test taken in May can be compared to one taken in October. The SAT would not be very useful if it had variation from the body of students who take the test on any given administration."

    Hence if you look at an actual sample of however many hundred thousand test scores on some given date for some subject for a specific ethnic group, it's not likely that the actual distribution is perfectly normal.

    I think what Snorlax is harping on though is the actual claim that mean by definition equals 50th percentile, which is only true in certain cases.

    http://www.mba.com/us/the-gmat-exam/gmat-exam-scores/your-score-report/what-percentile-rankings-mean.aspx

    For overall GMAT scores, if you click on the expand view button, it seems like the average score of 551 between 2013-2015 is between 43rd and 46th percentile. So median higher than mean, which means that its skewed left with really low scores dragging that shit down…

  64. @Steve Sailer
    Dental school test.

    Ah! It also stands for Differential Aptitude Test.

  65. Updates are nice, but racial IQ and IQ-proxy test gaps never significantly change.

  66. @Jack D
    Has very little to do with it. My parents were neither college educated nor native English speakers. But they did give me genetic advantages which were much more important than the former. Asian brain is just not as well set up for verbal skills, tilted more toward math. After 3 generations in the US, it will still be the same.

    My parents were neither college educated nor native English speakers… Asian brain is just not as well set up for verbal skills

    Irrelevant. You are cherrypicking a personal anecdote to make an argument about the average verbal intelligence of entire populations.

  67. It would appear, at that time at least, Asians didn’t have much of a LSAT collective cheating racket. I’d bet that they will, or perhaps already have, remedy that. The upper reaches of our country are being taken over by academic *frauds.

    P.S. As for the verbal scores, verbal test are more difficult to cheat on. Consider word association, you can memorize a thesaurus but so can anyone else so there’s no real advantage.

    * These so called cognitive elites not only aren’t as intelligent as advertised, they’re dishonest/crooked to boot. This is a recipe for disaster.

    • Agree: dc.sunsets
    • Replies: @Stacy235l
    you can memorize a thesaurus but so can anyone else so there’s no real advantage.

    Oops, I meant you can memorize stolen answers from collected cheat sheets, but anyone else can memorize a *thesaurus, so there's no real advantage.

    Or at least as much as they can memorize. The point is it's easy to prepare for verbal test without even cheating, therefore actual cheating doesn't help much. Whereas in math there's a huge advantage to knowing the exact problems in advance.

  68. @Stacy235l
    It would appear, at that time at least, Asians didn't have much of a LSAT collective cheating racket. I'd bet that they will, or perhaps already have, remedy that. The upper reaches of our country are being taken over by academic *frauds.

    P.S. As for the verbal scores, verbal test are more difficult to cheat on. Consider word association, you can memorize a thesaurus but so can anyone else so there's no real advantage.

    * These so called cognitive elites not only aren't as intelligent as advertised, they're dishonest/crooked to boot. This is a recipe for disaster.

    you can memorize a thesaurus but so can anyone else so there’s no real advantage.

    Oops, I meant you can memorize stolen answers from collected cheat sheets, but anyone else can memorize a *thesaurus, so there’s no real advantage.

    Or at least as much as they can memorize. The point is it’s easy to prepare for verbal test without even cheating, therefore actual cheating doesn’t help much. Whereas in math there’s a huge advantage to knowing the exact problems in advance.

  69. @JW
    Of course it's East Asians. South Asians are highly verbal, which is perhaps why they climb the corporate ladder more easily e.g. the number of Indian CEO's in Silicon Valley vs East Asian.

    South Asians were also colonized by the Brits, the legacy of which even now gives them a verbal advantage in any English-speaking country. (The USA is still English-speaking, sort of.)

    If only these genius South- and East-Asian societies had ever developed the sense to control their populations, perhaps they wouldn’t be exporting so many of themselves to other lands.

  70. @Yan Shen
    Yeah, we pretty much always talk about the black vs white gap in testing in this country, but I would assume that the biggest gaps are probably found on quantitative tests between East Asian males and black females.

    Gender aside, the fact that an Asian American is slightly more likely to score a 700 or higher on the SAT math than a black American is to score above a 500 is truly staggering...

    I wonder how long it’ll be until negroes start focusing their rage & violence upon asians? Probably won’t happen, except in the sense that negroes focus their rage & violence upon everyone–including negroes.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    They have done it before. They'll be happy to do it again.
  71. I am certain that the “Asian” score of 47% percentile of Cuckasians in LSAT was because of the inclusion of tongue-tied and autistic Whorientals under the asinine category of “Asian”.

    We Hindooooooz can even sell crude to Saudis!

  72. This is a bit technical but here goes (if you are not interested skip this comment). There are two different reasons why this type of exam-score data often looks approximately normal. Reason one is that the underlying trait being measured is normal, reason two is that the noisy measurement of the trait relies on the average of a large number of exam questions. Either or both of these could induce approximate normality, due to what is called the central limit theorem. So exam result data often looks approximately normal both because many traits have approximately normal distributions and because measurement error from using averages across exam questions generates approximate normality.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Cognitive tests are typically designed to produce a normal probability distribution of results.
  73. @Peter Johnson
    This is a bit technical but here goes (if you are not interested skip this comment). There are two different reasons why this type of exam-score data often looks approximately normal. Reason one is that the underlying trait being measured is normal, reason two is that the noisy measurement of the trait relies on the average of a large number of exam questions. Either or both of these could induce approximate normality, due to what is called the central limit theorem. So exam result data often looks approximately normal both because many traits have approximately normal distributions and because measurement error from using averages across exam questions generates approximate normality.

    Cognitive tests are typically designed to produce a normal probability distribution of results.

    • Replies: @res
    An interesting aspect of this is that it can result in non-normal distributions for subgroups (unlike IQ which tends to be normal for the subgroups as well). For example see the histograms in the Dorans 2004 link above. Most of that is ceiling/floor effects, but see the Asian verbal scores for a good example.
  74. The interesting thing for me is the verbal/math divide. Leaving aside prep, (because I don’t believe it matters much), it’s funny how some people know that indolent is not a synonym of indigent but they get sweaty palms at the mention of an Hungarian Equation.
    I am one of those 99th (gmat) V and 73rd Q types. Actually, it’s not much of a type – according to Steve, it’s just me and Obama. I think it makes me sceptical of the typical information society type who always appears to be below me on V or Q or both. I believe the sweet spot for my general profile may 10 points below on both scales. At this level, you are widely considered a real wordsmith, and your logical deficiencies never trouble you.

    • Replies: @res

    I am one of those 99th (gmat) V and 73rd Q types. Actually, it’s not much of a type – according to Steve, it’s just me and Obama.
     
    I am curious where Steve said that. That kind of split (albeit probably typically lower on both as you allude to) seems quite common in our pundit/media class. A big part of the reason they are so terrible when discussing anything statistical (e.g. l'affaire Damore).

    I think affirmative action has increased the prevalence of high V/low(er) M people in responsible positions in our society because of the differing average score profiles.
  75. @Steve Sailer
    Jerry Lewis's son went to my Catholic high school, I think. He was a senior when I was a freshman.

    That’s just L.A. privilege. You run into A-list actresses at Walgreens and go to high school with the kids of timeless legends.

    I went to high school with a guy who got on American Greed. That’s the neatest story I got.

  76. @Alfa158
    The Gaussian Distribution, which the Bell Curve roughly approximates is a non-linear function therefore differences in the center of distribution between different groups will result in increased differences as you go farther out towards the tails. Therefore if a higher IQ is required to achieve a 50th percentile score on a certain test then the ratios between different groups get wider as the required intelligence goes further out on the curve.
    For example, if we accept for argument the distribution curve, and the average and standard deviation that are commonly used, what is the percentage of Blacks achieving a certain score compared to Whites :
    IQ 100 or higher : Whites 50%, Blacks 16% Black to White ratio : 32%
    IQ 115 or higher : Whites 16%, Blacks 2.28% Black to White ratio : 14%
    IQ 130 or higher : Whites 2.28%, Blacks 0.135%% Black to White ratio : 6%
    IQ 145 or higher : Whites 0.135%, Blacks 0.003%%% Black to White ratio : 3%

    Thanks for that.

  77. @utu
    mean percentiles?

    Does the two numbers 50% and 13% from first row imply that black mean is 26% of white mean?

    No.

  78. @lavoisier
    Justices Ginsburg and Breyer were right.

    Are they race realists?

    Justices Ginsburg and Breyer were right.
    Are they race realists?

    Probably.

    My own very private interrogations of ultra liberal family members (including several deathbed conversations) have revealed exactly this. They know the negro is a permanent “special needs” case whom will forever require the assistance and support of Europeans.

  79. @Steve Sailer
    I think some of what this table shows has to do with ego and ambitiousness: blacks tend to be well-endowed ego-wise, so they think it likely they can become a lawyer. Mexican-Americans, in contrast, aren't as ambitious, so the Mexican-Americans who take the LSAT have a more realistic view on average of their chances of scoring well.

    Anyway, I think I wrote up a lot of my speculations about the data in my 2009 VDARE article, so I'd encourage anybody interested to start there.

    But how do the races compare in terms of people who don’t think formal professional education matters as far as their performance as lawyers (or imagining they are)? Sorry, you triggered one of my bugaboos (the white of strictly average intelligence now armed with an open admission online college bachelors degree who imagines himself equivalent of Harvard MD or JD on professional matters). Think, the folks who believe in Declarationism.

  80. @keuril

    Man, what’s with Asians and verbal scores
     
    There's no way Asians as a group are on a level playing field with whites when it comes to verbal. It's a huge advantage to have two college educated native English speakers as parents. In this respect, white test takers, as a group, are advantaged in comparison to all other groups, but Asians in particular.

    What a crock of sh!t you spew. You obviously sucked at the critical thinking portion of ANY of these exams.

  81. @Thomm
    Black underperformance is truly shocking. 13th percentile, even though US blacks are 20% white!!

    Jesus Christ.

    I am of the view that if you measure genetic distance, there really are just two races : Blacks and non-Blacks. There are various subraces within each race (Khoi, Bantu, etc. in 'Blacks' and Europeans, Yellows, South Asians, etc. in 'non-Blacks').

    But blacks really are laggards by a distance so large that some extremely un-PC questions can't help but arise.

    Only WNs are as inept as blacks..

    Only WNs are as inept as blacks.

    Really? You can back that up can you?

    Are you that mythical creature (none seen in captivity) – someone who can explain why whites should become marginalised minorities in nations they created.

    • Replies: @Thomm

    Really? You can back that up can you?
     
    Of course I can. See my comments under the 'Why White Nationalism 1.0 Failed' and 'Sacrificing Smart Asians' threads.

    Remember that white variance is extremely high. That is why a WN has nothing in common with a talented, successful, impressive white person. This is why successful whites make sure you are kept out of polite society.

    You, in particular, are pathetic. I seem to recall that on Roissy's, you spent months obsessing over that one Indian chick who never even acknowledged your existence.
  82. @snorlax
    Again, not trying to be assholish or argumentative; I'm just thinking about how the more intellectually-honest* HBD-denialists like to point to a passage in The Bell Curve where Murray gives a slightly-incorrect definition of standard deviation or p or something (I don't quite remember) and claim this error is so glaring it discredits all of the statistical analysis in the book.

    I've heard that this anecdote about "getting statistics wrong" has become a nationally-popular topic for freshman stats lectures (see, anti-racist math is a thing!), which is probably why the Middlebury mob was so exercised about (i.e. had heard of) him.

    *Relatively-speaking, of course. As in, at least their criticism is fact-based rather than purely-emotional/namecalling, and supported with an in-context textual citation of the work they're criticizing.

    I’m curious how you would describe the results (wildly over-affirmed by Politifacts) discussed here.

    This ‘study’ is really making the rounds but it’s methodology and conclusions seem odd. It at first suggested that blacks received 50% fewer callbacks for identical resumes, later modified to 33%, but 94% of resumes, black or white sounding, received no callback. In other words, out of 5000 resumes sent around 160 Gregs and Emily’s received callbacks whereas only 82 Lakishas and Jamal’s received callbacks. There was no control group for downmarket white names.

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/

  83. @Yan Shen
    No since I live in the US, I'm obviously referring to American society. I mean it's not like I'm a uh white nationalist masquerading as an American nationalist, supposedly a self-avowed citizenist, but somehow strangely obsessing over the state of every other white country on Earth... (If you ever want a good example of real nationalism as opposed to ethnic nationalism, just look to East Asia.)

    By the way, the math/verbal split for East Asians actually strongly affects how the economies of East Asia are oriented with respect to the economies of the West. As Ron Unz and others have pointed out, East Asian economies are clearly skewed towards advanced manufacturing and tech, i.e. value creation, while the economies of most Western nations skew towards services, i.e. value transference, California tech aside.

    In today's high globalized economy, you and numerous others are already enjoying the benefits of high quantitative aptitude, even when it's thousands of miles away!

    Which East Asian country is not an ethno-state already? Which East Asian people’s are not implicitly (insert name of applicable East Asian tribe/race/nationality) + nationalists already?

    When whites were 90% of the population most of which were generations in this country few felt that defending their culture and heritage against alien interlopers was necessary. Charlottesville proved them wrong. But then again, I doubt the Russians expected to be subjugated by a hostile Obama Coalition of racial fringe groups at the conclusion of the Russian Revolution.

    I say this as someone who lived as a minority in an Asian majority state where ethnic identity was front and center.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    A lot of it is just definitions, though. "Han" is a construction of genetically pretty diverse people, for example; in practice, the Northern Chinese aren't the same as the Southern Chinese and we snark about it to each other. There are significant provincial differences and clan associations; a large part of the triumph of Confucianism was to declare a form of meritocracy to stabilize and provide a form of social mobility that was, at least on the surface, relatively unreliant on family/kin/ethnicity. Anything that emphasized further on ethnicity would have shattered China.

    We're not really "one people" and the presence of "dialects" which are basically full fledged languages is a constant reminder of that. The physical differences are evident too, and everytime the PLA deploys tall soldiers with dour faces to impress Hong Kong or something, a lot of Chinese comment on "oh, look at those wheat-eating northerners they bring in."

    The Japanese are quite different in this, and have a stronger notion of being Japanese(and apparently, much less provincial attachments).

  84. @Steve Sailer
    Asian scores have been rising on the SAT, which is engineered to be stable over time.

    SAT, which is engineered to be stable over time

    It’s good to be careful about that assumption. The scoring curve tends to get tweaked whenever they rework the SAT. And that seems to be becoming more frequent (roughly speaking, 1974, 1995, 2005, 2016, with 1995 being the biggest).

    I think your conclusion about Asian scores is a real effect though.

  85. @Curle
    Which East Asian country is not an ethno-state already? Which East Asian people's are not implicitly (insert name of applicable East Asian tribe/race/nationality) + nationalists already?

    When whites were 90% of the population most of which were generations in this country few felt that defending their culture and heritage against alien interlopers was necessary. Charlottesville proved them wrong. But then again, I doubt the Russians expected to be subjugated by a hostile Obama Coalition of racial fringe groups at the conclusion of the Russian Revolution.

    I say this as someone who lived as a minority in an Asian majority state where ethnic identity was front and center.

    A lot of it is just definitions, though. “Han” is a construction of genetically pretty diverse people, for example; in practice, the Northern Chinese aren’t the same as the Southern Chinese and we snark about it to each other. There are significant provincial differences and clan associations; a large part of the triumph of Confucianism was to declare a form of meritocracy to stabilize and provide a form of social mobility that was, at least on the surface, relatively unreliant on family/kin/ethnicity. Anything that emphasized further on ethnicity would have shattered China.

    We’re not really “one people” and the presence of “dialects” which are basically full fledged languages is a constant reminder of that. The physical differences are evident too, and everytime the PLA deploys tall soldiers with dour faces to impress Hong Kong or something, a lot of Chinese comment on “oh, look at those wheat-eating northerners they bring in.”

    The Japanese are quite different in this, and have a stronger notion of being Japanese(and apparently, much less provincial attachments).

  86. @Lurker

    Only WNs are as inept as blacks.
     
    Really? You can back that up can you?

    Are you that mythical creature (none seen in captivity) - someone who can explain why whites should become marginalised minorities in nations they created.

    Really? You can back that up can you?

    Of course I can. See my comments under the ‘Why White Nationalism 1.0 Failed’ and ‘Sacrificing Smart Asians’ threads.

    Remember that white variance is extremely high. That is why a WN has nothing in common with a talented, successful, impressive white person. This is why successful whites make sure you are kept out of polite society.

    You, in particular, are pathetic. I seem to recall that on Roissy’s, you spent months obsessing over that one Indian chick who never even acknowledged your existence.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    Hi troll.

    Clearly any concern for the fate of white people and they nations they have created is a dreadful lower class concern.

    You, in particular, are pathetic. I seem to recall that on Roissy’s, you spent months obsessing over that one Indian chick who never even acknowledged your existence.
     
    I have no recollection of ever commenting at Roissy's, maybe one or two random instances . As for obsessing over one of your monobrowed females, no chance mate.

    Meanwhile there is a street somewhere that needs sh***ing in. Off you go.
  87. @Desiderius

    If not for massive government fiat, there would be no black middle class.
     
    There was a pretty good one developing in the early/mid 20th Century before LBJ shat upon it.

    There was a pretty good one developing in the early/mid 20th Century before LBJ shat upon it.

    If you have some truly unbiased datapoints about that, I would love to see it.

    Partly because the central belief of HBD people is that blacks have never been able to succeed in creating a decent society anywhere ever.

    If what you say is true, there may be very-long-term hope for US blacks yet if a miracle of shedding off government chains happens.

    Otherwise, the Detroit = Haiti = Zimbabwe meme is hard to rebut….

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    If you have some truly unbiased datapoints about that, I would love to see it.
     
    I see it in my neighborhood all the time. West side of Cincinnati = lots of confident, Catholic white families here for generations and staying. Good influence on the local blacks who run several local businesses, mow their lawns regularly, etc... Blacks like confident whites; it's why they hate Republican weenies.

    As for mid-century black success, my sense would be to look at Harlem and various predominately black communities in the south. More hearsay than data though, but reasonably strong and trustworthy hearsay.
    , @Desiderius

    Partly because the central belief of HBD people is that blacks have never been able to succeed in creating a decent society anywhere ever.
     
    The truly magic dirt is proximate whites who are willing to stick up for themselves. Predation needs to be highly unprofitable and understood to be so.
  88. @Alfa158
    The Gaussian Distribution, which the Bell Curve roughly approximates is a non-linear function therefore differences in the center of distribution between different groups will result in increased differences as you go farther out towards the tails. Therefore if a higher IQ is required to achieve a 50th percentile score on a certain test then the ratios between different groups get wider as the required intelligence goes further out on the curve.
    For example, if we accept for argument the distribution curve, and the average and standard deviation that are commonly used, what is the percentage of Blacks achieving a certain score compared to Whites :
    IQ 100 or higher : Whites 50%, Blacks 16% Black to White ratio : 32%
    IQ 115 or higher : Whites 16%, Blacks 2.28% Black to White ratio : 14%
    IQ 130 or higher : Whites 2.28%, Blacks 0.135%% Black to White ratio : 6%
    IQ 145 or higher : Whites 0.135%, Blacks 0.003%%% Black to White ratio : 3%

    Good point, but worth noting that your numbers assume equal White and Black populations. For anyone who wants to do these calculations themselves see http://emilkirkegaard.dk/understanding_statistics/?app=tail_effects which also allows changing the relative population sizes. The defaults there match your “distribution curve, and the average and standard deviation that are commonly used” and use equal population sizes with a threshold of 130 (i.e. replicate your third case).

    If we change the White/Black populations to 0.7/0.13 (roughly current US proportions) we get:
    IQ 130 or higher : Whites 2.28%, Blacks 0.135%% Black to White ratio : 6% Black to White ratio observed in the actual population : 1.1%
    That page would refer to the last number as percent Black. I think this general idea is easier to think about as what that page refers to as ratio: 90 Whites above that threshold for every Black. For a 145 threshold that becomes 229.

  89. Why so private? I’ve taken my own Left leaning relatives head on without hesitation, it’s particularly a hoot the more intelligent they are. Once trained in systems thinking it becomes harder to embrace mysticism or at least argue for it. Everyone above a certain IQ knows Blank Slate is bunk.

    • Replies: @res

    Why so private?
     
    For me because it tends to inspire hatred. Either you pull your punches and just get called "racist" or you argue them into submission (at least the ones who are willing to admit to facts eventually) and prove them both wrong in what they said and hypocritical. Which results in a great deal of redirected anger. Another undesirable side effect is it forces those smart enough to understand to choose the other side in the argument which I think actually tends to entrench their original opinion (both of reality and their opponent).

    The best example I had of this concluded with the "rebuttal" of "well what about Jews and Asians?" (is there a better confirmation of understanding the HBD reality?) Which I thought provided a great clue to the "thinking" (probably more accurately "feeling") process involved. They really do "think" people who talk about group differences are just racists (or sexists).

    How do your relatives react?
  90. @Krastos the Gluemaker
    TL;DR: check out the link middle of the below

    Looking at data for grad school tests like these are even more hopelessly screwed up by selection biases, conflated by non-American citizens, and so forth that the desire to use them offhand for propaganda purposes should be ignored. Keep in mind that meaningful proportions of test takers in America/attending American educational institutions will still be non-citizens, this isn't usually recorded by the testing organizations themselves, and it's worse at university than high school level, where there are still notable effects for non-citizens. For instance, as with SAT, ACT, AP exams etc some tens of thousands of Hispanics in the data may not be American citizens and those are underage attendees of US high schools.

    Since citizens and non-citizens among other similar distinctions are treated quite differently in application, admission, government grant and loan processes and whatnot all evidence of whatever you're looking for (ie. racism, disparate impact) is hard to confirm.

    At the grad school level there are some counter-intuitive results I've already seen and pointed out myself on occasion, or at least nobody ever seems to know them despite whatever rant they will go on about race or something. For instance, Asian-American citizens students are actually outnumbered by white American-citizen students (remember, tons of grad students are aliens) by about 10-1 in various PhD fields, but this is almost never correctly reported or understood because non-citizens get lumped in with the same race as citizens.

    Anyway, I'm stopping by to actually point out a source at the high school level that "leaked" comprehensive data usually not available and that everyone here might have missed. I've never seen it referenced before on any Sailer-sphere site or anything, though it contains an extremely relevant snapshot, appearing to be based on all available data for a whole year's SAT-taking cohort. I was surprised when I came across it one day. This is possibly the only source of its kind in public existence, interesting because the creators of this content somehow must not have known what is taboo, the present day "woke" people getting ahold of such raw data by race and gender would be a cataclysm (published in 2005 also). Even though they contain no privacy violations or any such concerns, exact counts of student scores instead of roughly rounded off percentages or group averages or whatever are almost never, ever published by race, gender etc... This is despite what would be of extreme value to researchers, given the comprehensiveness and broad coverage of the whole country of high school standardized exams these days. A test like the SAT reasonably covers the supermajority of all potentially college bound students while self-selection for something like a given AP test subject is far worse.

    So we're looking at table 1 in particular of this document, though table 2 is relevant to recent events too ("Google guy" and all, as what do you blame on colleges/corporations when things are already baked in at an earlier time):
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/PICMINSAT.pdf

    Not surprisingly, this confirms some isolated trends most already know from similar sources (eg I believe the JBHE once somehow obtained data for one year showing only a few hundred black students had high SAT scores, in the mid-700s or something on a given section, across the whole US, but that was one report for one racial group with no other access to lots of data). Likewise there are occasionally very isolated reports of "girls in STEM" or whatever but lacking such comprehensive data. Raw AP score distributions are avaliable on archive for many years and I usually considered those one of the base sources for examining pipeline, bias, etc... issues for US students, by looking at the counts of high-scoring AP students as a proxy for whatever else by race and gender and other characteristics. For instance, by the present year there are roughly 4-5 times as many white students with highest scores on a given AP English, History, etc... exam compared to any other demographic group, which as a quick sanity check lines up with the above. High SAT and AP scores are reasonably well-correlated of course, but I've never seen another SAT/ACT etc... source like the one above, so relying on AP scores instead was always like pulling teeth

    Of course, in five minutes the testing service (or any of their rival nonprofits, the ACT people or anyone else too) could publish a comparable table of results to table 1 in the above for every year through whatever is latest, say 2014, and they might even be able to narrow down data for US residents, public versus private high schools, whatever, but they'll never do that unless coerced. The report linked above clearly is not intended for the purpose of actually considering and comparing other outcomes, potential racial discrimation and whatever, but it blows wide open a lot of vague wrong hypotheses.

    What should the Harvard class of roughly 2001 have looked like, "hypothetically by pure merit" after all?

    Obviously some savvy commenters here would want to look at even better data than just 90th+ percentile (I agree, would be great to have 95 or something too) and there are a few methodogical quibbles. There will be some changes from changes in total population demographic trends from 2001 to the present day, and the "doubling down" of two Reading+Writing SAT sections which was held to have some benefit on female scores as compared to male scores happened for a later interval of years, but still, this is gold standard SAT data. Remember that SAT scores broadly reported by various institutions, like a college's own reporting, can horribly "messed up" by various other practices like superscoring, self-selection and self-volunteering. (If you want to be, say, comparing college A to college B, despite whatever c**p US NEWS WR puts out, college A could superscore tests while B could not, optional versus mandatory choice of reporting SAT vs ACT and different number of students doing each makes data easy to game, as per Campbell's law). None of that here.

    In other education news, hilariously to anyone who already cynically knew it, a recent Raj Chetty et al paper showed even more bias towards the top 1% of family wealth in Ivy League admissions etc... than previous sources and media reports believed, a few interesting things they accidentally reveal in their data if one looks closely too (like confirming Princeton-mom style claims of marriage premiums among the upper class, because Chetty in imo an egregious violation of all common sense and ethics by those behind this got tens of millions of Americans full tax records, SS numbers, whatever else). But I'll stay on topic here.

    Thanks for that link. I downloaded it a few months ago, but can’t remember where I found it (I would have guessed here, but don’t see it in a search). It is a great source.

    Some other good sources in this vein:

    Why Has Black-White Skill Convergence Stopped? http://www.nber.org/papers/w11090

    THE RECENTERING OF SAT® SCALES AND ITS EFFECTS ON SCORE DISTRIBUTIONS AND SCORE INTERPRETATIONS
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2333-8504.2002.tb01871.x/full
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf
    I think this is the definitive reference for the 1995 recentering, but it also has score distribution histograms (50 point buckets) for the 1990 reference group by both race and sex. I think this nicely satisfies your: “Obviously some savvy commenters here would want to look at even better data than just 90th+ percentile (I agree, would be great to have 95 or something too)” though the data is over 25 years old at this point. Table 1 also has percentages for different score thresholds by sex (trigger warning for those who think there are no male/female differences at the high end for math skills) but they were not crass enough to do the same by race (can be estimated from the histograms though).

    Also http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scores-race-everything-you-ever/ and the linked blog post.

  91. @G Pinfold
    The interesting thing for me is the verbal/math divide. Leaving aside prep, (because I don't believe it matters much), it's funny how some people know that indolent is not a synonym of indigent but they get sweaty palms at the mention of an Hungarian Equation.
    I am one of those 99th (gmat) V and 73rd Q types. Actually, it's not much of a type - according to Steve, it's just me and Obama. I think it makes me sceptical of the typical information society type who always appears to be below me on V or Q or both. I believe the sweet spot for my general profile may 10 points below on both scales. At this level, you are widely considered a real wordsmith, and your logical deficiencies never trouble you.

    I am one of those 99th (gmat) V and 73rd Q types. Actually, it’s not much of a type – according to Steve, it’s just me and Obama.

    I am curious where Steve said that. That kind of split (albeit probably typically lower on both as you allude to) seems quite common in our pundit/media class. A big part of the reason they are so terrible when discussing anything statistical (e.g. l’affaire Damore).

    I think affirmative action has increased the prevalence of high V/low(er) M people in responsible positions in our society because of the differing average score profiles.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    quite common in our pundit/media class
     
    They're nowhere near 73 Q, nor 99 V for that matter.
  92. @Thomm

    There was a pretty good one developing in the early/mid 20th Century before LBJ shat upon it.
     
    If you have some truly unbiased datapoints about that, I would love to see it.

    Partly because the central belief of HBD people is that blacks have never been able to succeed in creating a decent society anywhere ever.

    If what you say is true, there may be very-long-term hope for US blacks yet if a miracle of shedding off government chains happens.

    Otherwise, the Detroit = Haiti = Zimbabwe meme is hard to rebut....

    If you have some truly unbiased datapoints about that, I would love to see it.

    I see it in my neighborhood all the time. West side of Cincinnati = lots of confident, Catholic white families here for generations and staying. Good influence on the local blacks who run several local businesses, mow their lawns regularly, etc… Blacks like confident whites; it’s why they hate Republican weenies.

    As for mid-century black success, my sense would be to look at Harlem and various predominately black communities in the south. More hearsay than data though, but reasonably strong and trustworthy hearsay.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Desiderius:

    As a denizen of New York City I question your claim of mid-century black success in Harlem. I went to a Catholic high school in the 1960s Harlem. It wasn't pretty. The only thing that brought later positive changes was gentrification and that was white.
  93. @res

    I am one of those 99th (gmat) V and 73rd Q types. Actually, it’s not much of a type – according to Steve, it’s just me and Obama.
     
    I am curious where Steve said that. That kind of split (albeit probably typically lower on both as you allude to) seems quite common in our pundit/media class. A big part of the reason they are so terrible when discussing anything statistical (e.g. l'affaire Damore).

    I think affirmative action has increased the prevalence of high V/low(er) M people in responsible positions in our society because of the differing average score profiles.

    quite common in our pundit/media class

    They’re nowhere near 73 Q, nor 99 V for that matter.

    • Replies: @res

    They’re nowhere near 73 Q, nor 99 V for that matter.
     
    That would be a much fairer response if you had included my caveat: "(albeit probably typically lower on both as you allude to)."

    But you raise a good point. Perhaps one way to look at it would be to examine the distribution of Q scores for those who score 98-99% V (not 99 and above because g pulls up the Q of the far right V tail). What do you think that distribution looks like? Can we find any data like that?

    In a similar vein, what do you think the distribution of V scores for our media/pundit class looks like? Among the (non affirmative action) best known I would expect 90+% V to dominate with a decent proportion of 99+%. I may overestimate their ability (Dunning-Kruger is real) though.

    Perhaps I overestimate the pundit/media class because I have friends of friends who were among the high end of elite school liberal arts graduates and that is one place they tended to end up (law also being a popular choice). I think their measured (by SAT, perhaps GRE would be different) ability would be at or above that 99/73 V/Q split, BUT they tend to be woefully undereducated and disinclined towards math relative to their ability. I think that latter point helps reconcile much of our disagreement--what do you think? I am also probably underestimating the influence of nepotism and espousing of narrative-friendly views in succeeding in the pundit/media world.

    It is worth recalling that in a country of 300 million people there are 3 million who are 99+% That is actually pretty common once any selection is done. My guess is you tend to underestimate that given the number of 9s applicable to you and the rarity of that.
  94. @Thomm

    There was a pretty good one developing in the early/mid 20th Century before LBJ shat upon it.
     
    If you have some truly unbiased datapoints about that, I would love to see it.

    Partly because the central belief of HBD people is that blacks have never been able to succeed in creating a decent society anywhere ever.

    If what you say is true, there may be very-long-term hope for US blacks yet if a miracle of shedding off government chains happens.

    Otherwise, the Detroit = Haiti = Zimbabwe meme is hard to rebut....

    Partly because the central belief of HBD people is that blacks have never been able to succeed in creating a decent society anywhere ever.

    The truly magic dirt is proximate whites who are willing to stick up for themselves. Predation needs to be highly unprofitable and understood to be so.

    • Replies: @benjaminl
    Thomas Sowell has been writing about DC's Dunbar High School for a long time as a case of what the black Talented Tenth can do when they are segregated from the black underclass (not the way he puts it exactly, but...)

    from 1974 - there are many more recent columns of his too:
    https://www.nationalaffairs.com/public_interest/detail/black-excellence-the-case-of-dunbar-high-school

    @Dan Hayes - I think the 1960s was already too late. I also had a sense that the 1920s Great Migration already was filling up Harlem with the lower-IQ black country cousins from the South, whom the more upper-crust blacks despised and resented.
  95. @Curle
    Why so private? I've taken my own Left leaning relatives head on without hesitation, it's particularly a hoot the more intelligent they are. Once trained in systems thinking it becomes harder to embrace mysticism or at least argue for it. Everyone above a certain IQ knows Blank Slate is bunk.

    Why so private?

    For me because it tends to inspire hatred. Either you pull your punches and just get called “racist” or you argue them into submission (at least the ones who are willing to admit to facts eventually) and prove them both wrong in what they said and hypocritical. Which results in a great deal of redirected anger. Another undesirable side effect is it forces those smart enough to understand to choose the other side in the argument which I think actually tends to entrench their original opinion (both of reality and their opponent).

    The best example I had of this concluded with the “rebuttal” of “well what about Jews and Asians?” (is there a better confirmation of understanding the HBD reality?) Which I thought provided a great clue to the “thinking” (probably more accurately “feeling”) process involved. They really do “think” people who talk about group differences are just racists (or sexists).

    How do your relatives react?

    • Replies: @Peter Johnson
    The best approach with leftist/mainstream-narrative relations and friends is to drop in a scattering of HBD-aware comments but avoid talking directly about the big issues such as white/black IQ differences. That is too sensitive for friendly public banter and just causes frictions.
    , @Curle
    Mine caved quickly. And re-directed to climate change where I didn't give them the fight they wanted. They knew already but social convention dictated some push back, I guess. There was some initial hillbillies on heroin commentary but both of my relatives come opponents understand distributions which makes it near impossible to argue the anti-HBD position and keep your self respect. So the made a feeble stand and . . .
  96. @Desiderius

    If you have some truly unbiased datapoints about that, I would love to see it.
     
    I see it in my neighborhood all the time. West side of Cincinnati = lots of confident, Catholic white families here for generations and staying. Good influence on the local blacks who run several local businesses, mow their lawns regularly, etc... Blacks like confident whites; it's why they hate Republican weenies.

    As for mid-century black success, my sense would be to look at Harlem and various predominately black communities in the south. More hearsay than data though, but reasonably strong and trustworthy hearsay.

    Desiderius:

    As a denizen of New York City I question your claim of mid-century black success in Harlem. I went to a Catholic high school in the 1960s Harlem. It wasn’t pretty. The only thing that brought later positive changes was gentrification and that was white.

    • Replies: @res
    Remember that the question at hand is the existence of a black middle class. Not the presence or absence of black dysfunctionality. In 1960s Harlem who was running the churches, stores, politics, etc.?

    One of the arguments against desegregation was the way it caused the "talented tenth" to move more into the white world eliminating many of the most capable from an active role in the black community.

    I would really like to see data on all of this, but these ideas are so un-PC as to be toxic in the current year.

    This book looks to be focused on more recent reality, but might be worth a look regarding the black middle class: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/649288.html
  97. @res

    Why so private?
     
    For me because it tends to inspire hatred. Either you pull your punches and just get called "racist" or you argue them into submission (at least the ones who are willing to admit to facts eventually) and prove them both wrong in what they said and hypocritical. Which results in a great deal of redirected anger. Another undesirable side effect is it forces those smart enough to understand to choose the other side in the argument which I think actually tends to entrench their original opinion (both of reality and their opponent).

    The best example I had of this concluded with the "rebuttal" of "well what about Jews and Asians?" (is there a better confirmation of understanding the HBD reality?) Which I thought provided a great clue to the "thinking" (probably more accurately "feeling") process involved. They really do "think" people who talk about group differences are just racists (or sexists).

    How do your relatives react?

    The best approach with leftist/mainstream-narrative relations and friends is to drop in a scattering of HBD-aware comments but avoid talking directly about the big issues such as white/black IQ differences. That is too sensitive for friendly public banter and just causes frictions.

    • Replies: @res

    That is too sensitive for friendly public banter and just causes frictions.
     
    Agreed. I made the mistake of thinking the Black/White IQ conversation might be possible with someone I consider extremely close who has seen me interact in real life with people of different races. Won't be trying that again anytime soon. But it is OK to blather on about how everyone is the same in the most superficial of conversations. And blather on about how freedom of speech is a cherished value. And how science is so awesome. F*cking hypocrites.

    Perhaps Curle was referring to less sensitive topics? I originally responded to him (?) because I was hoping for tips like yours. Thanks.
  98. @Desiderius

    quite common in our pundit/media class
     
    They're nowhere near 73 Q, nor 99 V for that matter.

    They’re nowhere near 73 Q, nor 99 V for that matter.

    That would be a much fairer response if you had included my caveat: “(albeit probably typically lower on both as you allude to).”

    But you raise a good point. Perhaps one way to look at it would be to examine the distribution of Q scores for those who score 98-99% V (not 99 and above because g pulls up the Q of the far right V tail). What do you think that distribution looks like? Can we find any data like that?

    In a similar vein, what do you think the distribution of V scores for our media/pundit class looks like? Among the (non affirmative action) best known I would expect 90+% V to dominate with a decent proportion of 99+%. I may overestimate their ability (Dunning-Kruger is real) though.

    Perhaps I overestimate the pundit/media class because I have friends of friends who were among the high end of elite school liberal arts graduates and that is one place they tended to end up (law also being a popular choice). I think their measured (by SAT, perhaps GRE would be different) ability would be at or above that 99/73 V/Q split, BUT they tend to be woefully undereducated and disinclined towards math relative to their ability. I think that latter point helps reconcile much of our disagreement–what do you think? I am also probably underestimating the influence of nepotism and espousing of narrative-friendly views in succeeding in the pundit/media world.

    It is worth recalling that in a country of 300 million people there are 3 million who are 99+% That is actually pretty common once any selection is done. My guess is you tend to underestimate that given the number of 9s applicable to you and the rarity of that.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    cf. Gell-Mann effect.

    There are good ones, but they don't make it to the top these days. By design.
  99. @Dan Hayes
    Desiderius:

    As a denizen of New York City I question your claim of mid-century black success in Harlem. I went to a Catholic high school in the 1960s Harlem. It wasn't pretty. The only thing that brought later positive changes was gentrification and that was white.

    Remember that the question at hand is the existence of a black middle class. Not the presence or absence of black dysfunctionality. In 1960s Harlem who was running the churches, stores, politics, etc.?

    One of the arguments against desegregation was the way it caused the “talented tenth” to move more into the white world eliminating many of the most capable from an active role in the black community.

    I would really like to see data on all of this, but these ideas are so un-PC as to be toxic in the current year.

    This book looks to be focused on more recent reality, but might be worth a look regarding the black middle class: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/649288.html

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Exactly.

    Mismatch has wreaked untold havoc.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    One of the arguments against desegregation was the way it caused the “talented tenth” to move more into the white world eliminating many of the most capable from an active role in the black community.
     
    Right. It was the desegregation of housing that allowed the Talented Tenth and many others to move away from the Dindu Deplorables as fast as they could. See Prince Georges County, Maryland.
  100. @Peter Johnson
    The best approach with leftist/mainstream-narrative relations and friends is to drop in a scattering of HBD-aware comments but avoid talking directly about the big issues such as white/black IQ differences. That is too sensitive for friendly public banter and just causes frictions.

    That is too sensitive for friendly public banter and just causes frictions.

    Agreed. I made the mistake of thinking the Black/White IQ conversation might be possible with someone I consider extremely close who has seen me interact in real life with people of different races. Won’t be trying that again anytime soon. But it is OK to blather on about how everyone is the same in the most superficial of conversations. And blather on about how freedom of speech is a cherished value. And how science is so awesome. F*cking hypocrites.

    Perhaps Curle was referring to less sensitive topics? I originally responded to him (?) because I was hoping for tips like yours. Thanks.

  101. @Steve Sailer
    Cognitive tests are typically designed to produce a normal probability distribution of results.

    An interesting aspect of this is that it can result in non-normal distributions for subgroups (unlike IQ which tends to be normal for the subgroups as well). For example see the histograms in the Dorans 2004 link above. Most of that is ceiling/floor effects, but see the Asian verbal scores for a good example.

  102. @Kyle McKenna
    I wonder how long it'll be until negroes start focusing their rage & violence upon asians? Probably won't happen, except in the sense that negroes focus their rage & violence upon everyone--including negroes.

    They have done it before. They’ll be happy to do it again.

  103. @Desiderius

    Partly because the central belief of HBD people is that blacks have never been able to succeed in creating a decent society anywhere ever.
     
    The truly magic dirt is proximate whites who are willing to stick up for themselves. Predation needs to be highly unprofitable and understood to be so.

    Thomas Sowell has been writing about DC’s Dunbar High School for a long time as a case of what the black Talented Tenth can do when they are segregated from the black underclass (not the way he puts it exactly, but…)

    from 1974 – there are many more recent columns of his too:
    https://www.nationalaffairs.com/public_interest/detail/black-excellence-the-case-of-dunbar-high-school

    – I think the 1960s was already too late. I also had a sense that the 1920s Great Migration already was filling up Harlem with the lower-IQ black country cousins from the South, whom the more upper-crust blacks despised and resented.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    So maybe blaming LBJ is unfair then.

    Certainly didn't help.
    , @Gringo
    – I think the 1960s was already too late. I also had a sense that the 1920s Great Migration already was filling up Harlem with the lower-IQ black country cousins from the South, whom the more upper-crust blacks despised and resented.

    Thomas Sowell was born in 1930 in North Carolina, and moved to Harlem when he was 9.
    So he was a country cousin who moved to Harlem. Did rather well for himself, I think.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell
  104. @Krastos the Gluemaker
    TL;DR: check out the link middle of the below

    Looking at data for grad school tests like these are even more hopelessly screwed up by selection biases, conflated by non-American citizens, and so forth that the desire to use them offhand for propaganda purposes should be ignored. Keep in mind that meaningful proportions of test takers in America/attending American educational institutions will still be non-citizens, this isn't usually recorded by the testing organizations themselves, and it's worse at university than high school level, where there are still notable effects for non-citizens. For instance, as with SAT, ACT, AP exams etc some tens of thousands of Hispanics in the data may not be American citizens and those are underage attendees of US high schools.

    Since citizens and non-citizens among other similar distinctions are treated quite differently in application, admission, government grant and loan processes and whatnot all evidence of whatever you're looking for (ie. racism, disparate impact) is hard to confirm.

    At the grad school level there are some counter-intuitive results I've already seen and pointed out myself on occasion, or at least nobody ever seems to know them despite whatever rant they will go on about race or something. For instance, Asian-American citizens students are actually outnumbered by white American-citizen students (remember, tons of grad students are aliens) by about 10-1 in various PhD fields, but this is almost never correctly reported or understood because non-citizens get lumped in with the same race as citizens.

    Anyway, I'm stopping by to actually point out a source at the high school level that "leaked" comprehensive data usually not available and that everyone here might have missed. I've never seen it referenced before on any Sailer-sphere site or anything, though it contains an extremely relevant snapshot, appearing to be based on all available data for a whole year's SAT-taking cohort. I was surprised when I came across it one day. This is possibly the only source of its kind in public existence, interesting because the creators of this content somehow must not have known what is taboo, the present day "woke" people getting ahold of such raw data by race and gender would be a cataclysm (published in 2005 also). Even though they contain no privacy violations or any such concerns, exact counts of student scores instead of roughly rounded off percentages or group averages or whatever are almost never, ever published by race, gender etc... This is despite what would be of extreme value to researchers, given the comprehensiveness and broad coverage of the whole country of high school standardized exams these days. A test like the SAT reasonably covers the supermajority of all potentially college bound students while self-selection for something like a given AP test subject is far worse.

    So we're looking at table 1 in particular of this document, though table 2 is relevant to recent events too ("Google guy" and all, as what do you blame on colleges/corporations when things are already baked in at an earlier time):
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/PICMINSAT.pdf

    Not surprisingly, this confirms some isolated trends most already know from similar sources (eg I believe the JBHE once somehow obtained data for one year showing only a few hundred black students had high SAT scores, in the mid-700s or something on a given section, across the whole US, but that was one report for one racial group with no other access to lots of data). Likewise there are occasionally very isolated reports of "girls in STEM" or whatever but lacking such comprehensive data. Raw AP score distributions are avaliable on archive for many years and I usually considered those one of the base sources for examining pipeline, bias, etc... issues for US students, by looking at the counts of high-scoring AP students as a proxy for whatever else by race and gender and other characteristics. For instance, by the present year there are roughly 4-5 times as many white students with highest scores on a given AP English, History, etc... exam compared to any other demographic group, which as a quick sanity check lines up with the above. High SAT and AP scores are reasonably well-correlated of course, but I've never seen another SAT/ACT etc... source like the one above, so relying on AP scores instead was always like pulling teeth

    Of course, in five minutes the testing service (or any of their rival nonprofits, the ACT people or anyone else too) could publish a comparable table of results to table 1 in the above for every year through whatever is latest, say 2014, and they might even be able to narrow down data for US residents, public versus private high schools, whatever, but they'll never do that unless coerced. The report linked above clearly is not intended for the purpose of actually considering and comparing other outcomes, potential racial discrimation and whatever, but it blows wide open a lot of vague wrong hypotheses.

    What should the Harvard class of roughly 2001 have looked like, "hypothetically by pure merit" after all?

    Obviously some savvy commenters here would want to look at even better data than just 90th+ percentile (I agree, would be great to have 95 or something too) and there are a few methodogical quibbles. There will be some changes from changes in total population demographic trends from 2001 to the present day, and the "doubling down" of two Reading+Writing SAT sections which was held to have some benefit on female scores as compared to male scores happened for a later interval of years, but still, this is gold standard SAT data. Remember that SAT scores broadly reported by various institutions, like a college's own reporting, can horribly "messed up" by various other practices like superscoring, self-selection and self-volunteering. (If you want to be, say, comparing college A to college B, despite whatever c**p US NEWS WR puts out, college A could superscore tests while B could not, optional versus mandatory choice of reporting SAT vs ACT and different number of students doing each makes data easy to game, as per Campbell's law). None of that here.

    In other education news, hilariously to anyone who already cynically knew it, a recent Raj Chetty et al paper showed even more bias towards the top 1% of family wealth in Ivy League admissions etc... than previous sources and media reports believed, a few interesting things they accidentally reveal in their data if one looks closely too (like confirming Princeton-mom style claims of marriage premiums among the upper class, because Chetty in imo an egregious violation of all common sense and ethics by those behind this got tens of millions of Americans full tax records, SS numbers, whatever else). But I'll stay on topic here.

    (eg I believe the JBHE once somehow obtained data for one year showing only a few hundred black students had high SAT scores, in the mid-700s or something on a given section, across the whole US
    JBHE: The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test.

    Let’s be more specific about the SAT racial gap among high-scoring applicants. In 2005, 153,132 African Americans took the SAT test….
    If we raise the top-scoring threshold to students scoring 750 or above on both the math and verbal SAT — a level equal to the mean score of students entering the nation’s most selective colleges such as Harvard, Princeton, and CalTech — we find that in the entire country 244 blacks scored 750 or above on the math SAT and 363 black students scored 750 or above on the verbal portion of the test. Nationwide, 33,841 students scored at least 750 on the math test and 30,479 scored at least 750 on the verbal SAT. Therefore, black students made up 0.7 percent of the test takers who scored 750 or above on the math test and 1.2 percent of all test takers who scored 750 or above on the verbal section.

    I compared this to my high school, which admittedly did not house an average population. In my high school class of about 180, I can come up with 9 people of a class of 180 who got 750 or above on the Math SAT. Compare that to 244 out of 150,000 blacks. Not an encouraging comparison

  105. Here is a pretty white girl that just got engaged to an East Asian :

    https://www.facebook.com/kelsey.lane.505?hc_ref=ARTLo9lfTfDmzxRBHBf9y3H9jHxhmUUJsjIUU_6nBZXBNVmIxE4yIcVzZm5K6NLsKc0

    So in the second gen, even that stereotype has fallen.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    pretty white girl
     
    Really?! She looks dreadful. Big man jaw. Plastic surgery still left the Resting Bitch Face. Yipes! Hope the guy has an iron clad pre-nup.
  106. @res

    They’re nowhere near 73 Q, nor 99 V for that matter.
     
    That would be a much fairer response if you had included my caveat: "(albeit probably typically lower on both as you allude to)."

    But you raise a good point. Perhaps one way to look at it would be to examine the distribution of Q scores for those who score 98-99% V (not 99 and above because g pulls up the Q of the far right V tail). What do you think that distribution looks like? Can we find any data like that?

    In a similar vein, what do you think the distribution of V scores for our media/pundit class looks like? Among the (non affirmative action) best known I would expect 90+% V to dominate with a decent proportion of 99+%. I may overestimate their ability (Dunning-Kruger is real) though.

    Perhaps I overestimate the pundit/media class because I have friends of friends who were among the high end of elite school liberal arts graduates and that is one place they tended to end up (law also being a popular choice). I think their measured (by SAT, perhaps GRE would be different) ability would be at or above that 99/73 V/Q split, BUT they tend to be woefully undereducated and disinclined towards math relative to their ability. I think that latter point helps reconcile much of our disagreement--what do you think? I am also probably underestimating the influence of nepotism and espousing of narrative-friendly views in succeeding in the pundit/media world.

    It is worth recalling that in a country of 300 million people there are 3 million who are 99+% That is actually pretty common once any selection is done. My guess is you tend to underestimate that given the number of 9s applicable to you and the rarity of that.

    cf. Gell-Mann effect.

    There are good ones, but they don’t make it to the top these days. By design.

  107. @benjaminl
    Thomas Sowell has been writing about DC's Dunbar High School for a long time as a case of what the black Talented Tenth can do when they are segregated from the black underclass (not the way he puts it exactly, but...)

    from 1974 - there are many more recent columns of his too:
    https://www.nationalaffairs.com/public_interest/detail/black-excellence-the-case-of-dunbar-high-school

    @Dan Hayes - I think the 1960s was already too late. I also had a sense that the 1920s Great Migration already was filling up Harlem with the lower-IQ black country cousins from the South, whom the more upper-crust blacks despised and resented.

    So maybe blaming LBJ is unfair then.

    Certainly didn’t help.

  108. @res
    Remember that the question at hand is the existence of a black middle class. Not the presence or absence of black dysfunctionality. In 1960s Harlem who was running the churches, stores, politics, etc.?

    One of the arguments against desegregation was the way it caused the "talented tenth" to move more into the white world eliminating many of the most capable from an active role in the black community.

    I would really like to see data on all of this, but these ideas are so un-PC as to be toxic in the current year.

    This book looks to be focused on more recent reality, but might be worth a look regarding the black middle class: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/649288.html

    Exactly.

    Mismatch has wreaked untold havoc.

  109. @res
    Remember that the question at hand is the existence of a black middle class. Not the presence or absence of black dysfunctionality. In 1960s Harlem who was running the churches, stores, politics, etc.?

    One of the arguments against desegregation was the way it caused the "talented tenth" to move more into the white world eliminating many of the most capable from an active role in the black community.

    I would really like to see data on all of this, but these ideas are so un-PC as to be toxic in the current year.

    This book looks to be focused on more recent reality, but might be worth a look regarding the black middle class: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/649288.html

    One of the arguments against desegregation was the way it caused the “talented tenth” to move more into the white world eliminating many of the most capable from an active role in the black community.

    Right. It was the desegregation of housing that allowed the Talented Tenth and many others to move away from the Dindu Deplorables as fast as they could. See Prince Georges County, Maryland.

  110. @res

    Why so private?
     
    For me because it tends to inspire hatred. Either you pull your punches and just get called "racist" or you argue them into submission (at least the ones who are willing to admit to facts eventually) and prove them both wrong in what they said and hypocritical. Which results in a great deal of redirected anger. Another undesirable side effect is it forces those smart enough to understand to choose the other side in the argument which I think actually tends to entrench their original opinion (both of reality and their opponent).

    The best example I had of this concluded with the "rebuttal" of "well what about Jews and Asians?" (is there a better confirmation of understanding the HBD reality?) Which I thought provided a great clue to the "thinking" (probably more accurately "feeling") process involved. They really do "think" people who talk about group differences are just racists (or sexists).

    How do your relatives react?

    Mine caved quickly. And re-directed to climate change where I didn’t give them the fight they wanted. They knew already but social convention dictated some push back, I guess. There was some initial hillbillies on heroin commentary but both of my relatives come opponents understand distributions which makes it near impossible to argue the anti-HBD position and keep your self respect. So the made a feeble stand and . . .

  111. @benjaminl
    Thomas Sowell has been writing about DC's Dunbar High School for a long time as a case of what the black Talented Tenth can do when they are segregated from the black underclass (not the way he puts it exactly, but...)

    from 1974 - there are many more recent columns of his too:
    https://www.nationalaffairs.com/public_interest/detail/black-excellence-the-case-of-dunbar-high-school

    @Dan Hayes - I think the 1960s was already too late. I also had a sense that the 1920s Great Migration already was filling up Harlem with the lower-IQ black country cousins from the South, whom the more upper-crust blacks despised and resented.

    – I think the 1960s was already too late. I also had a sense that the 1920s Great Migration already was filling up Harlem with the lower-IQ black country cousins from the South, whom the more upper-crust blacks despised and resented.

    Thomas Sowell was born in 1930 in North Carolina, and moved to Harlem when he was 9.
    So he was a country cousin who moved to Harlem. Did rather well for himself, I think.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

  112. @Thomm
    Black underperformance is truly shocking. 13th percentile, even though US blacks are 20% white!!

    Jesus Christ.

    I am of the view that if you measure genetic distance, there really are just two races : Blacks and non-Blacks. There are various subraces within each race (Khoi, Bantu, etc. in 'Blacks' and Europeans, Yellows, South Asians, etc. in 'non-Blacks').

    But blacks really are laggards by a distance so large that some extremely un-PC questions can't help but arise.

    Only WNs are as inept as blacks..

    “if you measure genetic distance”

    Now that people are able to spend $100 to get their ancestry done, there should be more work done in social sciences in taking into account this information. While one could probably do the analysis as you describe and focus on two groups, it would be more interesting to take a hierarchical analysis, whereby the average of IQ per haplogroup is estimated, taking into account the relationships between different haplogroups (i.e. haplogroup R1a depends on R1 which depends on R).

  113. @Thomm
    Here is a pretty white girl that just got engaged to an East Asian :

    https://www.facebook.com/kelsey.lane.505?hc_ref=ARTLo9lfTfDmzxRBHBf9y3H9jHxhmUUJsjIUU_6nBZXBNVmIxE4yIcVzZm5K6NLsKc0

    So in the second gen, even that stereotype has fallen.

    pretty white girl

    Really?! She looks dreadful. Big man jaw. Plastic surgery still left the Resting Bitch Face. Yipes! Hope the guy has an iron clad pre-nup.

  114. @Michelle
    I work for a City government institution. Foreign born and many native born Asians account for the majority of our part time employees, but they do absolutely awful on any promotional test for permanent employment. We employ a Chinese-American tech guy who is completely masterful at his job, but could not score well enough to place on an eligible list. He was so good at the job that the "Powers That Be" finally gave him a higher job title and pay because he had been performing above his job title for years and if you "Act" above your job title for over 2 years, you are supposed to get that job.

    After any tests, the Asians tell me that they did not understand "Hypothetical Situation" questions and that the math parts of the tests were easy. Unfortunately, the hypothetical situation questions are based on what we actually have to deal with on a day to day basis.

    Euro-American man here. I’ve lived and worked in Asia for 10 years. Married to an Asian.

    Over 10 years patterns began to reveal themselves and overwhelm my American social conditioning that “everyone is the same.” My takeaways:

    East Asians have plenty of brain processing power. Their mean possibly is higher than Euros. They learn established processes quickly. They can apply this knowledge in standard patterns. Hence China’s rise in learning and applying technology and business practices from the West.

    The big weak point for Asians is their creative ability and imagination. Imagining possibilities that are different from the present. Applying old practices in novel ways.

    East Asian cities tend to have streets where shops cluster that specialize in one type of good — aquariums, paper products, bolts and locks, etc. They all copy each other blindly. They are all the same. You will NEVER see a shop that tries to differentiate itself. It never occurs to them to “think different.”

    Of course, it doesn’t mean there are no creative Asians. It’s just that the population means are different. There is zero doubt in my mind that the Euro creativity mean is materially higher than the Asian one.

    I used to think my observations were a product of culture. Recently I’ve concluded that culture is a product of biology. Asians and Euros are just wired differently, each with strengths and weaknesses.

  115. @102 res and others: For all sorts of historical data about the supposed Negro “middle class” or “stable family” pre LBJ, read Those Who Can See blog. Thomas Sowell’s data seems, to me, highly suspect considering the numbers I’ve seen on that blog.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Thanks for the link - very useful source of data.

    Just... not the data on this question, as least that I can see. Do you have a link?
    , @res
    Thanks! As you and Desiderius have discussed, much to see there. By any chance do you have a link to a good source for Thomas Sowell’s data you mention? I have a copy of https://www.amazon.com/ESSAYS-DATA-AMERICAN-ETHNIC-GROUP/dp/0877662118 (the version including data) I can dig out if that is the reference. Even if there are issues with his data in this case I think Sowell is one of the more credible people in this area and would want to check his sources and methodology before ignoring his data..
  116. @3g4me
    @102 res and others: For all sorts of historical data about the supposed Negro "middle class" or "stable family" pre LBJ, read Those Who Can See blog. Thomas Sowell's data seems, to me, highly suspect considering the numbers I've seen on that blog.

    Thanks for the link – very useful source of data.

    Just… not the data on this question, as least that I can see. Do you have a link?

    • Replies: @3g4me
    Desiderius: I've been reading there for years now, and am not certain just how far back the specific posts I have in mind are - nor am I clear on particularly what subset of data you desire (if, by "this question" you mean IQ, then no - but regarding "stable families" or "middle class" then yes) . However, the blogger post on 13 April includes all graphs and tables ever published there, with links to the blog post in which it originally appeared. If you have time to do more extensive reading/browsing I think you'd find what you're looking for.
  117. @Yan Shen
    Let's cut Steve a break here with respect to average vs median. :)

    On the other hand, as gman pointed out, that may explain some other facts in this country. When a Steve, Chad, Jose, or Jamal don't quite get the distinction between average and median correct, but Chan does, it's not all that surprising that Asians are over-represented by something like 8-9X in technical roles in Silion Valley relative to their overall population percent.

    When a Steve, Chad, Jose, or Jamal don’t quite get the distinction between average and median correct, but Chan does,

    Yan, your own comments here were partly wrong about the average and median, and the commenter you presumed to correct was completely right. And then you make a bigger error with the whopper statistic below.

    Maybe the ability hierarchy works differently than you imagine when test scores are not at stake?

    Asians are over-represented by something like 8-9X in technical roles in Silion Valley relative to their overall population percent.

    It is not valid to count adult immigrants as part of the population on which the over-representation is calculated. If you exclude them, there is no way the ratio is as high as 8.

  118. @Desiderius
    Thanks for the link - very useful source of data.

    Just... not the data on this question, as least that I can see. Do you have a link?

    Desiderius: I’ve been reading there for years now, and am not certain just how far back the specific posts I have in mind are – nor am I clear on particularly what subset of data you desire (if, by “this question” you mean IQ, then no – but regarding “stable families” or “middle class” then yes) . However, the blogger post on 13 April includes all graphs and tables ever published there, with links to the blog post in which it originally appeared. If you have time to do more extensive reading/browsing I think you’d find what you’re looking for.

  119. Desiderius – for info and stats re the black family, read Reparations – scroll down to the section III: Slavery ‘destroyed the black family’. For an excellent overview of the hypothetical “Could we erase the Great Society and the sexual revolution, young Afro-Americans would revert back to the industrious strivers they once were” see We suffer on each side.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Yeah, that's pretty anecdotal (though greater propensity for violence in the larger population could co-exist with a productive middle class if that class were able to protect itself from predation). Doesn't really speak to the original question: whether there was ever a black middle class, even on a community level, that was principally made up of small businessmen/tradesmen and the like rather than government make-work functionaries.
  120. @Thomm

    Really? You can back that up can you?
     
    Of course I can. See my comments under the 'Why White Nationalism 1.0 Failed' and 'Sacrificing Smart Asians' threads.

    Remember that white variance is extremely high. That is why a WN has nothing in common with a talented, successful, impressive white person. This is why successful whites make sure you are kept out of polite society.

    You, in particular, are pathetic. I seem to recall that on Roissy's, you spent months obsessing over that one Indian chick who never even acknowledged your existence.

    Hi troll.

    Clearly any concern for the fate of white people and they nations they have created is a dreadful lower class concern.

    You, in particular, are pathetic. I seem to recall that on Roissy’s, you spent months obsessing over that one Indian chick who never even acknowledged your existence.

    I have no recollection of ever commenting at Roissy’s, maybe one or two random instances . As for obsessing over one of your monobrowed females, no chance mate.

    Meanwhile there is a street somewhere that needs sh***ing in. Off you go.

    • Replies: @Thomm
    I'm white, you retard.

    And yes, your pathetic attention-seeking from that average-looking Indian chick on Roissy's was legendary. So much so that it is remembered to this day. You are an infamously extreme loser..

    Heh heh heh heh

  121. @3g4me
    @102 res and others: For all sorts of historical data about the supposed Negro "middle class" or "stable family" pre LBJ, read Those Who Can See blog. Thomas Sowell's data seems, to me, highly suspect considering the numbers I've seen on that blog.

    Thanks! As you and Desiderius have discussed, much to see there. By any chance do you have a link to a good source for Thomas Sowell’s data you mention? I have a copy of https://www.amazon.com/ESSAYS-DATA-AMERICAN-ETHNIC-GROUP/dp/0877662118 (the version including data) I can dig out if that is the reference. Even if there are issues with his data in this case I think Sowell is one of the more credible people in this area and would want to check his sources and methodology before ignoring his data..

  122. @124 res: I have no sources for Sowell’s data; I merely read his books back when I was still a patriotard conservative. After far more extensive reading online I’ve found numerous occasions to question both his data and his conclusions (such as claiming a big root of Negro cultural dysfunction is that they learned/copied it from the Scots/Irish). However, I am no statistician and cannot help you re links to his data or methodology.

  123. @Lurker
    Hi troll.

    Clearly any concern for the fate of white people and they nations they have created is a dreadful lower class concern.

    You, in particular, are pathetic. I seem to recall that on Roissy’s, you spent months obsessing over that one Indian chick who never even acknowledged your existence.
     
    I have no recollection of ever commenting at Roissy's, maybe one or two random instances . As for obsessing over one of your monobrowed females, no chance mate.

    Meanwhile there is a street somewhere that needs sh***ing in. Off you go.

    I’m white, you retard.

    And yes, your pathetic attention-seeking from that average-looking Indian chick on Roissy’s was legendary. So much so that it is remembered to this day. You are an infamously extreme loser..

    Heh heh heh heh

  124. I’m white, you retard.

    Really? Then clearly you’re a massive cuck. You’re not John Engleman are you?

    And yes, your pathetic attention-seeking from that average-looking Indian chick on Roissy’s was legendary.

    I’m afraid that still isn’t true, just like it wasn’t true the other day.

  125. Really? Then clearly you’re a massive cuck. You’re not John Engleman are you?

    No. I am just a libertarian. Talented people don’t need handouts from others.

    Most white people know that White Trashionalists just want to mooch off of successful whites. That is why your Nationalist-Leftist ideology is unwelcome among respectable whites.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    Come on John admit it, it's you isn't it. There can't be two megacucks haunting these corners of the interwebs.

    Your basement tier trolling is at least ten years out of date. Perhaps you might try your luck at NRO or some Libertardian site?
  126. @Thomm

    Really? Then clearly you’re a massive cuck. You’re not John Engleman are you?
     
    No. I am just a libertarian. Talented people don't need handouts from others.

    Most white people know that White Trashionalists just want to mooch off of successful whites. That is why your Nationalist-Leftist ideology is unwelcome among respectable whites.

    Come on John admit it, it’s you isn’t it. There can’t be two megacucks haunting these corners of the interwebs.

    Your basement tier trolling is at least ten years out of date. Perhaps you might try your luck at NRO or some Libertardian site?

  127. @3g4me
    Desiderius - for info and stats re the black family, read Reparations - scroll down to the section III: Slavery 'destroyed the black family'. For an excellent overview of the hypothetical "Could we erase the Great Society and the sexual revolution, young Afro-Americans would revert back to the industrious strivers they once were" see We suffer on each side.

    Yeah, that’s pretty anecdotal (though greater propensity for violence in the larger population could co-exist with a productive middle class if that class were able to protect itself from predation). Doesn’t really speak to the original question: whether there was ever a black middle class, even on a community level, that was principally made up of small businessmen/tradesmen and the like rather than government make-work functionaries.

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