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For years, I’ve been mentioning the striking amount of space taken up in the brains of influential people by family memories of great-grandpa not being able to join the Los Angeles Country Club (so he had to join Jewish-only Hillcrest CC instead).

The Los Angeles Country Club takes up something like 0.9 miles of both sides of Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles’s main drag, right next to Beverly Hills.

Screenshot 2017-11-17 17.25.43

Behind its huge hedges, it’s the most conspicuously hidden away private golf club in America. While the largely elderly membership long attempted to maintain a low profile, psychologically, it acts as a giant turf marker, like a dog peeing on a tree, that says: “We were here first.”

I was there in September for the Walker Cup (George Walker Bush gave the US team of amateurs a pep talk to go beat the Brits in his his great-grand-daddy’s tournament), standing next to the 13th tee behind the dying Hugh Hefner’s Playboy Mansion. Of course, there was a giant hedge and the ex-Lutheran Hugh could never, ever get in to LACC, because he was show biz.

It really is a phenomenally great golf course. The old WASP real estate developers who built Los Angeles from 1887 onward (and in Los Angeles, virtually nobody can claim their ancestors “settled” the place — most newcomers arrived on the train and subdivided rather than settled) had an eye for land and they picked out the single best piece of golf land for themselves.

Of course, as I’ve been occasionally reminded, not that many people really care about golf course quality. But a surprising number of people care about minor variants in the social standing of their ancestors, such as whether great-grandpa could get into LACC or not.

 
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  1. Thomm says:

    Weird. Why was Hillcrest considered inferior to LACC anyway?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I've never been to Hillcrest. I've played Rancho, the municipal course that is next door to Hillcrest, and it has lots of interesting ups and downs. The layout of Rancho, unfortunately, only takes full advantage of the terrain a few times.

    LACC's terrain is even more fun. It's right at the edge of being too dramatic (like Bel Air built a few years later, which requires tunnels under famous mansions and golf cart elevators up mountains to connect the pieces of playable land), and yet it remains playable and walkable. The LACC people no doubt looked at the property of what's now Hillcrest and chose to buy what's now LACC instead. After all, they were their first, which is why they are named Los Angeles Country Club and why they have the best property.

    And the LACC membership has paid a lot over the years to get the course design right. First they paid expensive British designer Herbert Fowler to build in in the early 1920s, then they had it redesigned in the late 1920s by George C. Thomas. And recently it was refurbished by Gil Hanse to get it ready for the 2023 US Open.

    Hillcrest, in contrast, is famous for investing in its dining facilities rather than its golf course.

    The usual rule of thumb in the country club management business is that WASPs and Irish Catholics care most about golf and the bar, while Jews care most about the dining room and entertainment.

    , @Steve Sailer
    Los Angeles Country Club was always the famous old country club that the USGA most wanted in Los Angeles for the U.S. Open. Riviera hosted the last one, in 1948, but the USGA and Riviera don't get along that well, although the USGA hosted the US Amateur at Riviera in August. Bel-Air is a lot of fun but not quite US Open length or difficulty, plus it's crazy system of tunnels, elevators, and suspension bridges can't accommodate huge crowds. Hillcrest isn't an impressive enough course for the USGA. Brentwood, the second Jewish club, got the 1961 or 1962 PGA championship, even though it's not a great course, but then the Jewish attorney general of the state complained about the PGA keeping black golfers out, so the PGA changed the rule but moved the tournament out of state. (Since then, Jewish country clubs have been very leery of volunteering to host major championships, like they used to in the 1920s and 1930s.)

    I've never been to Hillcrest. I've played Rancho, LA's top municipal course that is next door to Hillcrest, and it has lots of interesting ups and downs. The layout of Rancho, unfortunately, only takes full advantage of the terrain a few times. I suspect Hillcrest is similar to Rancho, with nicer maintenance.

    LACC's terrain is even more fun. It's right at the edge of being too dramatic (like Bel Air built a few years later, which requires tunnels under famous mansions and golf cart elevators up mountains to connect the pieces of playable land), and yet it remains playable and walkable. The LACC people no doubt looked at the property of what's now Hillcrest and chose to buy what's now LACC instead. After all, they were their first, which is why they are named Los Angeles Country Club and why they have the best property.

    And the LACC membership has paid a lot over the years to get the course design right. First they paid expensive British designer Herbert Fowler to build in in the early 1920s, then they had it redesigned in the late 1920s by George C. Thomas. And recently it was refurbished by Gil Hanse to get it ready for the 2023 US Open.

    Hillcrest, in contrast, is famous for investing in its dining facilities rather than its golf course.

    The usual rule of thumb in the country club management business is that WASPs and Irish Catholics care most about golf and the bar, while Jews care most about the dining room and entertainment.

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  2. OT:
    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    All Roads Lead to Open Borders: Slides

    allroads.pdf

    Quote from chapter 2:

    Imagine a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow. Eeking out a meager living on the tundra. Hankering to move to any fertile country that admits them.
    [photo of tractors making furrows in snow covered ground.]

    Yes, I am now imagining “a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow”:

    It’s the year 2050 and the desired billions of Third World immigrants have moved into the First World thereby transforming it into more Third World. The native inhabitants are now a minority and they feel as comfortable as Boers do now. Some eccentric millionaires have gotten together and built colonies in Antarctica for wealthier whites to escape to. These colonies consist of large geodesic domes with insulated glass, heated with solar and geothermal energy. Vast arrays of heated hydroponic gardens supply food. All First World amenities are available: some domes have malls, some have stadiums, there is even a domed Disneyland. In fact, they are the world’s last and only region remaining with First World amenities. Maintaining heated domes in Antarctica is very expensive and only the wealthiest can afford to live there, so the per capita wealth is very high. Hydroponic gardens are also very expensive, yet also high yield, making them the world’s most valuable and productive farmlands.

    Bryan Caplan has since evacuated from his home town as soon as too many brown immigrants arrived there and he decamped to his very own Antarctic domed homestead so he can live in a literal “bubble”. He got a job teaching economics in a domed university with ivy creeping up the walls, growing under the shine of hydroponic grow lights. From there he publishes articles in his blog decrying Antarctica’s restrictive immigration laws.

    Some select articles:

    “Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world’s entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes”

    “Massive gaps in Antarctic living standards are a major economic puzzle: Why don’t people just move to Antarctica?”

    “Most people are vastly more productive in Antarctica than in Third Word regions like Northwest Europe and North America”

    “It is immoral for Antarticans to condemn the world’s population to exile in their wretched temperate glacierless birth countries”

    “Trapping Mexican farm workers on primitive American farms starves them and Antarcticans”

    “Antarctic immigration restrictions imprison talented Muslims in some of the world’s poorest countries, such as Germany, Sweden and Britain”

    ———————————

    In fact, people are growing food in Antarctica right now using greenhouses and hydroponics:

    HYDROPONICS AT MC MURDO STATION, ANTARCTICA
    Visit to the McMurdo Greenhouse
    Video of the greenhouse at McMurdo Station, Antarctica

    EDEN ISS greenhouse will supply the German Neumayer III polar station with fresh fruit and vegetables

    The crew of the Chinese Great Wall Station can now exist without some of the supply flights from the mainland. Thanks to their own greenhouse

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Isn't that in Kornbluth's "Marching Morons:" all the scientists have moved to scientist-only communities in Antarctica?
    , @Tex
    Open borders is "Niagara Falls" economics, lol. Just like going over the edge in barrel shouting "This'll be awesome!"

    Also, your earnings are just like your height, fixed genetically at birth.
    , @Massimo Heitor

    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

     

    It's an advocacy book. No need to embellish. The idea of writing a graphic novel to engage in political advocacy isn't wrong, it's just Caplan's deranged morality beneath his ideology.

    I find one early sentence particularly telling:


    Why is mandatory discrimination against people who “chose the wrong parents” morally permissible?
     
    This is the premise of family. That points been made a thousand times, but it's a big one. Normal parents discriminate in favor of their birth children vs just other child and that is completely moral and normal.

    Morality is completely subjective. It's not arbitrary, it's based on a broad consensus. Murder is generally immoral, with some exceptions, because almost everyone even across major civilizations feels that way. I don't see anything close to Caplan's ideas on morality backing his open borders mindset as gaining broad consensus over the next few hundred years.

    I pessimistically see mass migration to US+Europe as winning out in terms of political strength. Will that happen to non-white nations like Japan? Maybe?

    , @roo_ster
    Gotta live the libertarians that suck off the gov't teat. Way to set the example guys!
    , @bomag
    To make the point, five hundred people should barge into Caplan's classroom and excitedly brag about how much their education has improved just by walking across the border of GMU. Then follow him home and brag about how housing quality has increased for themselves just by walking through the border of his walls.
    , @slumber_j
    Well done. Weirdly, as a young man I had two roommates at different times who had worked at South Pole Station--one of them twice and the other for a number of summers--and another friend of mine worked at McMurdo for a while. In satisfying conformity with your vision, they're all white and well-educated.

    The one who spent the longest down there gave my wife and me a photograph of the Utilidor for a wedding present.

    http://www.southpolestation.com/trivia/90s/utilidor.html
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  3. Lex says:

    She has really broad shoulders, like Olympic swimmer.

    Read More
    • Agree: utu
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  4. @Thomm
    Weird. Why was Hillcrest considered inferior to LACC anyway?

    I’ve never been to Hillcrest. I’ve played Rancho, the municipal course that is next door to Hillcrest, and it has lots of interesting ups and downs. The layout of Rancho, unfortunately, only takes full advantage of the terrain a few times.

    LACC’s terrain is even more fun. It’s right at the edge of being too dramatic (like Bel Air built a few years later, which requires tunnels under famous mansions and golf cart elevators up mountains to connect the pieces of playable land), and yet it remains playable and walkable. The LACC people no doubt looked at the property of what’s now Hillcrest and chose to buy what’s now LACC instead. After all, they were their first, which is why they are named Los Angeles Country Club and why they have the best property.

    And the LACC membership has paid a lot over the years to get the course design right. First they paid expensive British designer Herbert Fowler to build in in the early 1920s, then they had it redesigned in the late 1920s by George C. Thomas. And recently it was refurbished by Gil Hanse to get it ready for the 2023 US Open.

    Hillcrest, in contrast, is famous for investing in its dining facilities rather than its golf course.

    The usual rule of thumb in the country club management business is that WASPs and Irish Catholics care most about golf and the bar, while Jews care most about the dining room and entertainment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    Do you mean Rancho Park Golf Course on Pico ? It has a nice little restaurant.
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  5. @Thomm
    Weird. Why was Hillcrest considered inferior to LACC anyway?

    Los Angeles Country Club was always the famous old country club that the USGA most wanted in Los Angeles for the U.S. Open. Riviera hosted the last one, in 1948, but the USGA and Riviera don’t get along that well, although the USGA hosted the US Amateur at Riviera in August. Bel-Air is a lot of fun but not quite US Open length or difficulty, plus it’s crazy system of tunnels, elevators, and suspension bridges can’t accommodate huge crowds. Hillcrest isn’t an impressive enough course for the USGA. Brentwood, the second Jewish club, got the 1961 or 1962 PGA championship, even though it’s not a great course, but then the Jewish attorney general of the state complained about the PGA keeping black golfers out, so the PGA changed the rule but moved the tournament out of state. (Since then, Jewish country clubs have been very leery of volunteering to host major championships, like they used to in the 1920s and 1930s.)

    I’ve never been to Hillcrest. I’ve played Rancho, LA’s top municipal course that is next door to Hillcrest, and it has lots of interesting ups and downs. The layout of Rancho, unfortunately, only takes full advantage of the terrain a few times. I suspect Hillcrest is similar to Rancho, with nicer maintenance.

    LACC’s terrain is even more fun. It’s right at the edge of being too dramatic (like Bel Air built a few years later, which requires tunnels under famous mansions and golf cart elevators up mountains to connect the pieces of playable land), and yet it remains playable and walkable. The LACC people no doubt looked at the property of what’s now Hillcrest and chose to buy what’s now LACC instead. After all, they were their first, which is why they are named Los Angeles Country Club and why they have the best property.

    And the LACC membership has paid a lot over the years to get the course design right. First they paid expensive British designer Herbert Fowler to build in in the early 1920s, then they had it redesigned in the late 1920s by George C. Thomas. And recently it was refurbished by Gil Hanse to get it ready for the 2023 US Open.

    Hillcrest, in contrast, is famous for investing in its dining facilities rather than its golf course.

    The usual rule of thumb in the country club management business is that WASPs and Irish Catholics care most about golf and the bar, while Jews care most about the dining room and entertainment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hodag
    LACC got the land right before most clubs in Chicago got right. Dan Moore is writing the definitive book on the history of Chicago golf, he has the necessary info but he has to finish the. Damn. Book.

    First golf course was staked out in Jackson Park during the Columbian Exhibition. Current golf course is different in Jackson Park. Then another up on the north shore/Lake Forest iirc on some rich guy's estate. Chicago Golf was then built on really golfy land on what is now a par 9 municipal for Downers Grove. Ridgemoor was on a dead flat piece of property near my house, then moved by the morraine near Narragansett and Gunnison. . Onwentsia appeared about then, and despite it being the best bred course in Chicago and, and Tom Doak's best efforts, it is on black soil and will always be a swampy mess.

    Beverley has the best land in Chicago, but Shoreacres must be considered. Last summer I played Lake Shore, a Catholic course near Ravinia. It was great, a real members course that really suited this older golfer. Ron Pritchard is working there, trees are coming down and that is a course I could play everyday.

    But the best golf course I played last year was Davenport CC in the Quad Cities. Davenport is better than anything in Chicago and may be the best course I ever played.

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  6. @Hippopotamusdrome
    OT:
    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    All Roads Lead to Open Borders: Slides

    allroads.pdf

    Quote from chapter 2:


    Imagine a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow. Eeking out a meager living on the tundra. Hankering to move to any fertile country that admits them.
    [photo of tractors making furrows in snow covered ground.]

     

    Yes, I am now imagining "a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow":

    It's the year 2050 and the desired billions of Third World immigrants have moved into the First World thereby transforming it into more Third World. The native inhabitants are now a minority and they feel as comfortable as Boers do now. Some eccentric millionaires have gotten together and built colonies in Antarctica for wealthier whites to escape to. These colonies consist of large geodesic domes with insulated glass, heated with solar and geothermal energy. Vast arrays of heated hydroponic gardens supply food. All First World amenities are available: some domes have malls, some have stadiums, there is even a domed Disneyland. In fact, they are the world's last and only region remaining with First World amenities. Maintaining heated domes in Antarctica is very expensive and only the wealthiest can afford to live there, so the per capita wealth is very high. Hydroponic gardens are also very expensive, yet also high yield, making them the world's most valuable and productive farmlands.

    Bryan Caplan has since evacuated from his home town as soon as too many brown immigrants arrived there and he decamped to his very own Antarctic domed homestead so he can live in a literal "bubble". He got a job teaching economics in a domed university with ivy creeping up the walls, growing under the shine of hydroponic grow lights. From there he publishes articles in his blog decrying Antarctica's restrictive immigration laws.

    Some select articles:

    "Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world's entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes"

    "Massive gaps in Antarctic living standards are a major economic puzzle: Why don't people just move to Antarctica?"

    "Most people are vastly more productive in Antarctica than in Third Word regions like Northwest Europe and North America"

    "It is immoral for Antarticans to condemn the world's population to exile in their wretched temperate glacierless birth countries"

    "Trapping Mexican farm workers on primitive American farms starves them and Antarcticans"

    "Antarctic immigration restrictions imprison talented Muslims in some of the world's poorest countries, such as Germany, Sweden and Britain"

    ---------------------------------

    In fact, people are growing food in Antarctica right now using greenhouses and hydroponics:

    HYDROPONICS AT MC MURDO STATION, ANTARCTICA
    Visit to the McMurdo Greenhouse
    Video of the greenhouse at McMurdo Station, Antarctica

    EDEN ISS greenhouse will supply the German Neumayer III polar station with fresh fruit and vegetables

    The crew of the Chinese Great Wall Station can now exist without some of the supply flights from the mainland. Thanks to their own greenhouse

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    Isn’t that in Kornbluth’s “Marching Morons:” all the scientists have moved to scientist-only communities in Antarctica?

    Read More
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  7. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “EXCLUSIVE: How Sylvester Stallone was accused of sexually assaulting a 16-year-old fan: Police report reveals girl claimed star made her give him and his bodyguard oral sex and threatened they would ‘beat her head in’ if she ever told”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5081605/Sylvester-Stallone-accused-forcing-teen-threesome.html

    “Afterwards, the teen claims Stallone said she couldn’t tell anyone because both men were married and if she said anything, ‘they would have to beat her head in’”

    LOL! That sounds like some dialogue Stallone would write for the heavy in one of his movies.

    Read More
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  8. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Gulf War There, Golf War Here.

    I think they should remake TEN COMMANDMENTS with Ramses lording over a golf course.
    Then Moses arrives with his golf club and it turns into a snake and eats the snakes morphed from other golf clubs.

    And then, Moses leads his people out by playing all 18 holes and facing all sorts of obstacles but saved at every turn by God’s intervention.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    Old joke: Moses, Mohammed and Jesus are playing golf. Moses drives one down the straightaway and onto the green. Mohammed also hits a long one but it lands in a sand trap. Jesus tees up and hits the ball so it goes into the woods thirty yards from his tee. But a squirrel grabs the ball and runs down the fairway. An eagle snatches up the squirrel and carries it right over the green, where the eagle is struck by lightning. The ball falls down a few inches from the cup but a minor earthquake jiggles it into the cup for a hole-in-one. Moses turns to Jesus with disgust, "Look, are you going to play golf or just f*ck around all day?"
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  9. People will obsess over petty slights forever. Back when I was a college student, I went to the dentist for a check up. The bored, late-middle-aged hygienist made chit-chat and asked what I had been doing lately. As soon as I mentioned what uni I was attending, she grew very tense and angry. Her son, it turned out, had been rejected from that same uni 30 years earlier. It didn’t matter that he had graduated with honors from a slightly less “prestigious” uni and gone on to have a very successful career as a physicist working for Lawrence Livermore Lab for the last 20 years. All she could talk about for the next half hour was how unfair it was that a piece of shit like me had been accepted while her precious son had been rejected by the same, vastly overrated uni. It was just pitiful how obsessed she was over something so meaningless. The fact that her son was far more successful than I was (and was making three or four times the money I was making) didn’t begin to make up for the unforgivable insult of her boy being deemed unacceptable, eons ago, by a school that is rapidly becoming a national (if not a worldwide) joke.

    I am convinced that humans have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life, no matter how objectively and comparatively good they might actually have it.

    Still, some racial/ethnic groups seem much more prone to this tendency than others. I have noticed, for instance, that Jews and Indians (dots, not feathers) never stop whining about long-ago and rather trivial grievances.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.

    Perhaps the Buddha is famous today because (in reality) he was the hardest charger of them all in the Guru Industry, just as Harvey Weinstein produced more Oscar-nominated virtue-signaling movies than any other.

    , @AndrewR
    Which uni?

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?

    , @scrivener3
    You managed to work your prestigious uni into bored chit-chat with a receptionist? Reminds me of Harvard alum who will never volunteer their Alma mater unless asked, and keep directing the conversation around until asked.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    I am convinced that humans have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life...
     
    I am convinced that women have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life...

    There. I fixed that for you.
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  10. Flip says:

    Did LACC ever keep out Catholics? I assume they must have a few Jewish members now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "Did LACC ever keep out Catholics?"

    I've never seen anything one way or another on this question. Catholics don't have quite as long memories for grievances.

    , @Jack D
    I think it depends on what sort of Catholics. Genteel F. Scott Fitzgerald/Francis Scott Key type Catholics might have squeaked in. Joe Rizzoli, the garbage hauling contractor - not a chance.

    Article about country clubs and discrimination from 1962:

    https://www.si.com/vault/1962/03/05/620671/status-seeking-crazy-hats-and-discrimination
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  11. Crank says:

    Steve, you should apply for LACC membership. I would think the tweets and comments about you from Podhoretz would serve as an excellent character reference.

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A friend of mine who is a tech millionaire tried to get into LACC. He was told they mostly only accepted lawyers who had offices in the skyscrapers of Century City, adjoining the South Course of LACC.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. @Francis G.
    People will obsess over petty slights forever. Back when I was a college student, I went to the dentist for a check up. The bored, late-middle-aged hygienist made chit-chat and asked what I had been doing lately. As soon as I mentioned what uni I was attending, she grew very tense and angry. Her son, it turned out, had been rejected from that same uni 30 years earlier. It didn't matter that he had graduated with honors from a slightly less "prestigious" uni and gone on to have a very successful career as a physicist working for Lawrence Livermore Lab for the last 20 years. All she could talk about for the next half hour was how unfair it was that a piece of shit like me had been accepted while her precious son had been rejected by the same, vastly overrated uni. It was just pitiful how obsessed she was over something so meaningless. The fact that her son was far more successful than I was (and was making three or four times the money I was making) didn't begin to make up for the unforgivable insult of her boy being deemed unacceptable, eons ago, by a school that is rapidly becoming a national (if not a worldwide) joke.

    I am convinced that humans have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life, no matter how objectively and comparatively good they might actually have it.

    Still, some racial/ethnic groups seem much more prone to this tendency than others. I have noticed, for instance, that Jews and Indians (dots, not feathers) never stop whining about long-ago and rather trivial grievances.

    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.

    Perhaps the Buddha is famous today because (in reality) he was the hardest charger of them all in the Guru Industry, just as Harvey Weinstein produced more Oscar-nominated virtue-signaling movies than any other.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Francis G.
    That would probably be ALL of those successful self-improvement, love-yourself gurus (e.g. Tony Robinson). The trick is to seem cool and laid-back while actually being extremely driven and egotistical. Not an easy trick, though. I have known many who tried it and failed.
    , @Anonymous

    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.
     
    Not Grant Cardone. He says you have to obsessed or you’ll be average. You need to wake up each day and say, “Who’s got my money?!” and then go get it. Cardone is a perfect example of how hard work is more important than smarts to get rich. Cardone was a terrible student and barely got his degree from McNeese State University after 5 years. Afterwards he floundered and did drugs. Then at 25 he found the way to rise above the crowd and get filthy rich (his only goal). Just work 10 times harder than everyone else (“The 10x Rule”). People naturally put the amount of work they deem necessary for the job so you overtake them all with 10x. He said friends, family, coworkers, and even management will tell you to ease up, don’t work so hard, but you have to stay strong and ignore all the advice and put in sick levels of action and work. It worked for him. Along with being a consummate huckster hustler. He started in car sales and now is worth 9 figures and owns thousands of luxury apartment rental properties in L.A., Miami, and elsewhere.

    Grant Cardone: The 10x Rule

    , @RichardTaylor

    Perhaps the Buddha is famous today because (in reality) he was the hardest charger of them all in the Guru Industry, just as Harvey Weinstein produced more Oscar-nominated virtue-signaling movies than any other.
     
    Yes, I have a feeling the Buddha was as sanctimonious as any liberal virtue signaler we see today. And probably just as mean in his personal life.
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  13. Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it’s Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning, but I certainly could be wrong and I’m fine if someone enlightens me.

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I’m looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can’t hold a grudge like that. If non-blue blood whites were kept out of a blue blood-country club, we’d just start our own and move on. Yeah, maybe that first generation would be a little bit bitter, but it’d fade very quickly. (I mean, who cares. Create your own world that better suits you anyway.) But Jews seem to hold on to the silliest of grudges for generations. It’s not like some LA WASP killed Silverman’s uncle.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve-o
    Read Kevin MacDonald’s Culture of Critique. The open borders/clubs for thee and not for me is part of their MO.
    , @dfordoom

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning
     
    It's actually a pretty smart strategy for maintaining group identity. Especially when religion will no longer serve that purpose. Jews in the US would no longer exist as a distinctive group without that common bond of shared oppression. The fact that it's imaginary oppression doesn't matter. It still works.

    Other ethnic groups have done the same thing, but never anywhere near as effectively. I used to know a Scottish-Australian who was still really really angry about Culloden. I'm not sure if he realised that the Duke of Cumberland was dead now.

    Assimilation is cultural genocide and if you want to avoid that fate you need something emotionally powerful enough to make assimilation impossible.

    Even sub-cultures do it a certain extent. The lesbian sub-culture sustained itself for so long with fantasies of being oppressed. The fact that no-one has ever cared enough about lesbians to bother oppressing them made no difference. Without that fantasy they would have had no identity at all.
    , @Rod1963
    Jews don't want whites to maintain their ethnic identities at all. They want to keep us atomized, individualized so we can barely organize a bake sale so to speak.

    This is why the tribal clown car posse freaked out over Trump's victory, when they saw all those whites voting for a man they hated and did everything to destroy. It wasn't supposed to happen.

    Hence their war on our clubs, schools, Christianity and lilly white towns. Socially cohesive whites are anathema to them, a threat to their power. Their power resides in keeping us fractured. So when some white Christian baker says "no" to making a wedding cake for lesbians he's all alone and the Jews can have some prog judge issue a fatwa and make a example out of him. If a thousand whites stood with him and said "come and enforce your crooked decrees" they'd run.

    There is no freedom of association for whites. For ethnics and Jews yes. And you can put the blame on the tribe for this.
    , @Karl
    13 Citizen of a Silly Country > Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs

    There are actually close to zero of them in the USA.

    There's lots of them that don't advertise openly for "diverse" new members - but then again, neither does Local 20 of the Steamfitters union or Local 1607 0f the Millwright's union

    Do you actually want to daven with the Satmars? Just say the word, i'll set you up with a recommendation. They won't inspect your circumcision.
    , @AnotherDad

    Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it’s Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?
     
    Of course, you're not missing anything. You are doing very basic observation and logic which is just bad think when it comes to the Jews.

    Post-holocaust the Jews have managed to construct a narrative and--pretty successfully--con the goyim into not thinking critically about Jews. So that people now--Jews included probably--are quite a bit less clear headed about the Jews than people of 100 years back.

    It's really quite amazing that Jews have managed to sell a narrative of themselves as cosmopolitan and integrationist as if Jewish ideology was some sort of Martin Luther Kingesque "content of their character" thing and 18th century Jews were holding up "integration now!" placards only to be dosed by gentiles with firehoses.

    Jews were generally urban and money smart, but not cosmopolitan--rootless or otherwise--in the "open" sense, but rather super-tribalist. They practice an ethnic religion, with the Talmud full of 1001 practices specifically evolved to keep Jews separate from Gentiles and keep their little cult bolted down tight and their tribe tightly endogamous. Far from being integrationist they were world champion anti-integrationists.

    Rather it is Christianity that is open and integrationist. Christianity happily absorbed Europe's tribes and converted them--with endogamy--into "one people" nations. This de-tribalization was a tremendous force for good, for progress, for building modernity, trust and prosperity. And the Jews were the notable resistant tribe--along with the late arriving Gypsies--who clung to their backward tribal identity.

    All this golfocaust nonsense just revolves around the actual core Jewish ideology which is essentially "ethnic solidarity for Jews is good; but Gentile society must be always and everywhere penetrable by Jews."

    "Anti-Semitism" is the complaint that Gentiles are reacting to Jews, like Jews react to Gentiles. (I.e. treating them as outsiders.)
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  14. Tex says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome
    OT:
    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    All Roads Lead to Open Borders: Slides

    allroads.pdf

    Quote from chapter 2:


    Imagine a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow. Eeking out a meager living on the tundra. Hankering to move to any fertile country that admits them.
    [photo of tractors making furrows in snow covered ground.]

     

    Yes, I am now imagining "a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow":

    It's the year 2050 and the desired billions of Third World immigrants have moved into the First World thereby transforming it into more Third World. The native inhabitants are now a minority and they feel as comfortable as Boers do now. Some eccentric millionaires have gotten together and built colonies in Antarctica for wealthier whites to escape to. These colonies consist of large geodesic domes with insulated glass, heated with solar and geothermal energy. Vast arrays of heated hydroponic gardens supply food. All First World amenities are available: some domes have malls, some have stadiums, there is even a domed Disneyland. In fact, they are the world's last and only region remaining with First World amenities. Maintaining heated domes in Antarctica is very expensive and only the wealthiest can afford to live there, so the per capita wealth is very high. Hydroponic gardens are also very expensive, yet also high yield, making them the world's most valuable and productive farmlands.

    Bryan Caplan has since evacuated from his home town as soon as too many brown immigrants arrived there and he decamped to his very own Antarctic domed homestead so he can live in a literal "bubble". He got a job teaching economics in a domed university with ivy creeping up the walls, growing under the shine of hydroponic grow lights. From there he publishes articles in his blog decrying Antarctica's restrictive immigration laws.

    Some select articles:

    "Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world's entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes"

    "Massive gaps in Antarctic living standards are a major economic puzzle: Why don't people just move to Antarctica?"

    "Most people are vastly more productive in Antarctica than in Third Word regions like Northwest Europe and North America"

    "It is immoral for Antarticans to condemn the world's population to exile in their wretched temperate glacierless birth countries"

    "Trapping Mexican farm workers on primitive American farms starves them and Antarcticans"

    "Antarctic immigration restrictions imprison talented Muslims in some of the world's poorest countries, such as Germany, Sweden and Britain"

    ---------------------------------

    In fact, people are growing food in Antarctica right now using greenhouses and hydroponics:

    HYDROPONICS AT MC MURDO STATION, ANTARCTICA
    Visit to the McMurdo Greenhouse
    Video of the greenhouse at McMurdo Station, Antarctica

    EDEN ISS greenhouse will supply the German Neumayer III polar station with fresh fruit and vegetables

    The crew of the Chinese Great Wall Station can now exist without some of the supply flights from the mainland. Thanks to their own greenhouse

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    Open borders is “Niagara Falls” economics, lol. Just like going over the edge in barrel shouting “This’ll be awesome!”

    Also, your earnings are just like your height, fixed genetically at birth.

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    • Replies: @newrouter
    "Open borders is “Niagara Falls” economics, lol."

    The Three Stooges - Slowly I Turned
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYP1OBZfFK0
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  15. Glossy says: • Website

    The Los Angeles Country Club takes up something like 0.9 miles of both sides of Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles’s main drag

    Do golfers wait for the green light to cross over to the other side? Or is there a bridge or an underground passage?

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  16. Endless says:

    Would love to see the top 10 on your list of such people, Steve.

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  17. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “I Hid In My Bathroom From Anti-Semitic Marchers in Poland — In 2017″

    http://forward.com/opinion/387504/i-hid-in-my-bathroom-from-anti-semitic-marchers-in-poland-in-2017/

    After shuttering my windows, unplugging every light producing appliance, and retreating to the windowless bathroom, I could not help but wonder whether those neighbors were the friends and allies I thought they were. 60,000 people, I thought. I must have known one of them….For ten minutes, baritone chants and unison boots forced me to hide, to cower, as so many Jews must have seventy years ago. I can’t report on the sight because I was too afraid to look out the window.

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  18. @Crank
    Steve, you should apply for LACC membership. I would think the tweets and comments about you from Podhoretz would serve as an excellent character reference.

    A friend of mine who is a tech millionaire tried to get into LACC. He was told they mostly only accepted lawyers who had offices in the skyscrapers of Century City, adjoining the South Course of LACC.

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    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    He was told they mostly only accepted lawyers …
     
    That’s not the reason.

    You didn’t hear this from me, but word around town is that he’s in the habit of asking working waitresses their SAT scores. Très gauche. :)
    , @Hhsiii
    Steve's favorite is The National
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  19. newrouter says:
    @Tex
    Open borders is "Niagara Falls" economics, lol. Just like going over the edge in barrel shouting "This'll be awesome!"

    Also, your earnings are just like your height, fixed genetically at birth.

    “Open borders is “Niagara Falls” economics, lol.”

    The Three Stooges – Slowly I Turned

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    • LOL: 415 reasons
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  20. Of course, … , not that many people really care about golf course quality.

    True dat!

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  21. @Flip
    Did LACC ever keep out Catholics? I assume they must have a few Jewish members now.

    “Did LACC ever keep out Catholics?”

    I’ve never seen anything one way or another on this question. Catholics don’t have quite as long memories for grievances.

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    • Replies: @fish

    Catholics don’t have quite as long memories for grievances.
     
    Speaking from experience I have to disagree..... Irish Alzheimer’s (almost all Catholics in my personal experience)....where you forget everything except your grudges!
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    What about Lepanto and the English Reformation?
    , @Old Palo Altan
    The LA Country Club has had Catholic members since at least the 1930s.

    My friends (I've mentioned them before here) who live in Holmby Hills in the house they built for themselves at the end of the '20s, have been members since then. The present head of the family, a Loyola High grad like so many of the old Catholic elite, is the third generation of his family to enjoy membership. So Catholic is he that he has an Hispanic name, which matters not a jot.

    He hasn't a drop of Irish blood, but another, even older LA Catholic family with membership in the club, has quite a bit. My father and his brothers got to know them intimately well when they were all at Loyola together in the 30's. They inherited a largish Spanish land grant smack dab in the middle of Beverly Hills - and own it still. They too have been members for generations.

    So lacking in anti-Catholic bias is the club that it actually admits Catholic priests - when the head of the second family mentioned above took me to lunch there some thirty years ago, he was quickly surrounded by four or five of them (none in clerical dress I might add), all anxious to bask in his reflected glory as perhaps the richest old money Catholic in town.
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  22. AndrewR says:
    @Francis G.
    People will obsess over petty slights forever. Back when I was a college student, I went to the dentist for a check up. The bored, late-middle-aged hygienist made chit-chat and asked what I had been doing lately. As soon as I mentioned what uni I was attending, she grew very tense and angry. Her son, it turned out, had been rejected from that same uni 30 years earlier. It didn't matter that he had graduated with honors from a slightly less "prestigious" uni and gone on to have a very successful career as a physicist working for Lawrence Livermore Lab for the last 20 years. All she could talk about for the next half hour was how unfair it was that a piece of shit like me had been accepted while her precious son had been rejected by the same, vastly overrated uni. It was just pitiful how obsessed she was over something so meaningless. The fact that her son was far more successful than I was (and was making three or four times the money I was making) didn't begin to make up for the unforgivable insult of her boy being deemed unacceptable, eons ago, by a school that is rapidly becoming a national (if not a worldwide) joke.

    I am convinced that humans have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life, no matter how objectively and comparatively good they might actually have it.

    Still, some racial/ethnic groups seem much more prone to this tendency than others. I have noticed, for instance, that Jews and Indians (dots, not feathers) never stop whining about long-ago and rather trivial grievances.

    Which uni?

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?

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    • Replies: @Francis G.
    Berkeley.

    She appeared to be in her mid-60s at the time. I call that late-middle-aged. What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?
    , @Marty
    Berkeley, obviously.
    , @Anonymous

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?
     
    Maybe the father’s Roy Moore?
    , @AndrewR
    People age at different rates. At 65, some people are clearly elderly while others aren't. In the context of a hygienist I would just say "an older hygienist."

    Anyway, I would have said "Berkeley has allowed totalitarian communists to permanently destroyed its reputation. Your son should be very happy that he doesn't have the stain of a Berkeley degree."

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  23. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    There’s a pretty extensive wiki page on this subject, which I was surprised to find. I didn’t think there’d be a whole page dedicated to it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membership_discrimination_in_California_social_clubs

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It doesn't mention the Brentwood incident of the early 1960s which was historically important.
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  24. @Steve Sailer
    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.

    Perhaps the Buddha is famous today because (in reality) he was the hardest charger of them all in the Guru Industry, just as Harvey Weinstein produced more Oscar-nominated virtue-signaling movies than any other.

    That would probably be ALL of those successful self-improvement, love-yourself gurus (e.g. Tony Robinson). The trick is to seem cool and laid-back while actually being extremely driven and egotistical. Not an easy trick, though. I have known many who tried it and failed.

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  25. Thomm says:

    But a surprising number of people care about minor variants in the social standing of their ancestors, such as whether great-grandpa could get into LACC or not.

    Most people’s Great Grandparents were poor! Even basic necessities were perpetually in doubt that far back. Life expectancy in the US in 1900 was just 47.

    Anyone whose Great Grandfather could even play golf at all, that too at Hillcrest, was ultraprivileged. Note that this was *before* the Holocaust in Europe that killed 6 million Jews.

    How do they manage to whine about 1920s LACC when Auschwitz and Treblinka were in fact more recent than that (not that they don’t whine about that a lot too, but that is at least a real mistreatment).

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Ever heard them talk about Poland? It's the ultimate Jewish nightmare,worse than Hitler. And it continued for about 500 years, far worse than Hitler's 12. Listening to their endless tales about the persecution one wonders how any of them managed to survive to come to America.
    , @Anonymous
    My great-grandparents were quite illustrious, and each generation since has been downhill. Frankly, the decline has been a bit steep.

    If I told you what they did, you'd know who they were, but it most definitely wasn't playing golf.

    Now, though, the entire family is actually vanishing. So, it does happen, and I suppose some of us have to make way for all the new arrivals.

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  26. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Hmmm….

    Suppose US and Soviet Union divided Israel in half and one side was pro-commie and other side was pro-cappie. Suppose the commie side was gaining dominance over the cappie side, and US had to fight a long drawn out war like in Vietnam to save South Israel from North Israel.

    I can just see it now. Kilgore goes blasting into a village because “Schwarz Don’t Play Golf’.”

    But then, Jews protest and say, WE DO, WE DO PLAY GOLF!!!

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  27. Hodag says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Los Angeles Country Club was always the famous old country club that the USGA most wanted in Los Angeles for the U.S. Open. Riviera hosted the last one, in 1948, but the USGA and Riviera don't get along that well, although the USGA hosted the US Amateur at Riviera in August. Bel-Air is a lot of fun but not quite US Open length or difficulty, plus it's crazy system of tunnels, elevators, and suspension bridges can't accommodate huge crowds. Hillcrest isn't an impressive enough course for the USGA. Brentwood, the second Jewish club, got the 1961 or 1962 PGA championship, even though it's not a great course, but then the Jewish attorney general of the state complained about the PGA keeping black golfers out, so the PGA changed the rule but moved the tournament out of state. (Since then, Jewish country clubs have been very leery of volunteering to host major championships, like they used to in the 1920s and 1930s.)

    I've never been to Hillcrest. I've played Rancho, LA's top municipal course that is next door to Hillcrest, and it has lots of interesting ups and downs. The layout of Rancho, unfortunately, only takes full advantage of the terrain a few times. I suspect Hillcrest is similar to Rancho, with nicer maintenance.

    LACC's terrain is even more fun. It's right at the edge of being too dramatic (like Bel Air built a few years later, which requires tunnels under famous mansions and golf cart elevators up mountains to connect the pieces of playable land), and yet it remains playable and walkable. The LACC people no doubt looked at the property of what's now Hillcrest and chose to buy what's now LACC instead. After all, they were their first, which is why they are named Los Angeles Country Club and why they have the best property.

    And the LACC membership has paid a lot over the years to get the course design right. First they paid expensive British designer Herbert Fowler to build in in the early 1920s, then they had it redesigned in the late 1920s by George C. Thomas. And recently it was refurbished by Gil Hanse to get it ready for the 2023 US Open.

    Hillcrest, in contrast, is famous for investing in its dining facilities rather than its golf course.

    The usual rule of thumb in the country club management business is that WASPs and Irish Catholics care most about golf and the bar, while Jews care most about the dining room and entertainment.

    LACC got the land right before most clubs in Chicago got right. Dan Moore is writing the definitive book on the history of Chicago golf, he has the necessary info but he has to finish the. Damn. Book.

    First golf course was staked out in Jackson Park during the Columbian Exhibition. Current golf course is different in Jackson Park. Then another up on the north shore/Lake Forest iirc on some rich guy’s estate. Chicago Golf was then built on really golfy land on what is now a par 9 municipal for Downers Grove. Ridgemoor was on a dead flat piece of property near my house, then moved by the morraine near Narragansett and Gunnison. . Onwentsia appeared about then, and despite it being the best bred course in Chicago and, and Tom Doak’s best efforts, it is on black soil and will always be a swampy mess.

    Beverley has the best land in Chicago, but Shoreacres must be considered. Last summer I played Lake Shore, a Catholic course near Ravinia. It was great, a real members course that really suited this older golfer. Ron Pritchard is working there, trees are coming down and that is a course I could play everyday.

    But the best golf course I played last year was Davenport CC in the Quad Cities. Davenport is better than anything in Chicago and may be the best course I ever played.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Iowa is always considered the Flat State, but it's moderately rolling compared to much of Illinois.
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  28. @Anonymous
    There's a pretty extensive wiki page on this subject, which I was surprised to find. I didn't think there'd be a whole page dedicated to it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membership_discrimination_in_California_social_clubs

    It doesn’t mention the Brentwood incident of the early 1960s which was historically important.

    Read More
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  29. @Hodag
    LACC got the land right before most clubs in Chicago got right. Dan Moore is writing the definitive book on the history of Chicago golf, he has the necessary info but he has to finish the. Damn. Book.

    First golf course was staked out in Jackson Park during the Columbian Exhibition. Current golf course is different in Jackson Park. Then another up on the north shore/Lake Forest iirc on some rich guy's estate. Chicago Golf was then built on really golfy land on what is now a par 9 municipal for Downers Grove. Ridgemoor was on a dead flat piece of property near my house, then moved by the morraine near Narragansett and Gunnison. . Onwentsia appeared about then, and despite it being the best bred course in Chicago and, and Tom Doak's best efforts, it is on black soil and will always be a swampy mess.

    Beverley has the best land in Chicago, but Shoreacres must be considered. Last summer I played Lake Shore, a Catholic course near Ravinia. It was great, a real members course that really suited this older golfer. Ron Pritchard is working there, trees are coming down and that is a course I could play everyday.

    But the best golf course I played last year was Davenport CC in the Quad Cities. Davenport is better than anything in Chicago and may be the best course I ever played.

    Iowa is always considered the Flat State, but it’s moderately rolling compared to much of Illinois.

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    • Replies: @Hodag
    There is no comparison. I have driven around about 1/4 of Iowa and it is almost all golfy compared to northern Illinois.

    http://www.davenportcc.com

    The course pictures on the website actually do not do justice. It is kinda like NGLA show the first tee and the 18th green.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    Davenport is on the Mississippi River, so it's got the river valley topography going for it. Both of Iowa's riverine borders have some nice scenery in places.

    You're right about the 'Iowa is so flat' stereotype being mostly wrong, but most of north-central Iowa was pretty much pancaked by the glaciers. Northern Illinois is worse, though, it's true.

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  30. OT: Shots fired from the Ayesha Curry Wing of Woke Black Female Bodies:

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  31. @AndrewR
    Which uni?

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?

    Berkeley.

    She appeared to be in her mid-60s at the time. I call that late-middle-aged. What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?

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    • Replies: @buk

    She appeared to be in her mid-60s at the time. I call that late-middle-aged. What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?
     
    In Los Angeles?

    Middle age is 28-35

    , @guest
    "What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?"

    65 is usually when people shift to "elderly," given it's the official retirement age. But I don't have a problem saying anyone over 59 is past middle-age.

    Of course, I'm not middle-aged yet. It occurs to me that people often speak of middle-age starting at 45, but shouldn't it be more like late-30s? Life expectancy is just under 80, so your life's halfway point is likely near-40. A little later for women and earlier for men.

    Stretching middle-age from 40 to 65 seems overlong to me. The really big chunk should be the one between adolescence and middle-age, with the later categories getting shorter and shorter (like your bones).
    , @Old Palo Altan
    I suspected you were talking about Berkeley.
    Laughingstock for those who weren't there; something of a tragedy for those like me who lived through it.
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  32. fish says:
    @Steve Sailer
    "Did LACC ever keep out Catholics?"

    I've never seen anything one way or another on this question. Catholics don't have quite as long memories for grievances.

    Catholics don’t have quite as long memories for grievances.

    Speaking from experience I have to disagree….. Irish Alzheimer’s (almost all Catholics in my personal experience)….where you forget everything except your grudges!

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    • Replies: @middle aged vet . . .
    I agree with fish. A really good writer named John O'Hara basically made millions of dollars in the 40s and 50s writing stories which often contained long passages about Catholic resentments of WASPs ('The Golden Idol', about the Porcellian Club at Harvard, was the most famous, although the word 'Catholic' does not appear ... the story is written as if the narrator had been excluded from the Porcellian for other reasons). He was of Irish descent, born in Pennsylvania. The Godfather franchise (more the lousy novels than the Jungian movies) contain many lines of dialogue from self-pitying Italians, angry that the United States was not happy to have experienced as much Italian and Sicilian immigration as it did. And, to shift to golf - I was lucky enough (growing up on Long Island) to play on several golf courses that PG Wodehouse, the greatest golf writer in history, also played on (I think - I assume that the courses I played on in the 1970s, all within a half hour drive from his house, were courses he would have played on in his relatively youthful 1950s. Maybe I am wrong) . (well, I did not play on the legendary Southampton one, but I did play - badly, but who cares now - on every other good one within 40 miles of the Wodehouse home in Remsenberg). I looked at all the pictures on the link to the LA Country Club - that is one impressive course. Still, I prefer the Long Island golf courses, with their better relationship to the ocean breezes, and their more vintage trees, and their more naturally watered grass.
    , @Alden
    That's just the Irish. There are lots of jokes, hold a grudge till it wears out. An Irishman will give up his alcohol before he gives up his grudges
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  33. scrivener3 says: • Website
    @Francis G.
    People will obsess over petty slights forever. Back when I was a college student, I went to the dentist for a check up. The bored, late-middle-aged hygienist made chit-chat and asked what I had been doing lately. As soon as I mentioned what uni I was attending, she grew very tense and angry. Her son, it turned out, had been rejected from that same uni 30 years earlier. It didn't matter that he had graduated with honors from a slightly less "prestigious" uni and gone on to have a very successful career as a physicist working for Lawrence Livermore Lab for the last 20 years. All she could talk about for the next half hour was how unfair it was that a piece of shit like me had been accepted while her precious son had been rejected by the same, vastly overrated uni. It was just pitiful how obsessed she was over something so meaningless. The fact that her son was far more successful than I was (and was making three or four times the money I was making) didn't begin to make up for the unforgivable insult of her boy being deemed unacceptable, eons ago, by a school that is rapidly becoming a national (if not a worldwide) joke.

    I am convinced that humans have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life, no matter how objectively and comparatively good they might actually have it.

    Still, some racial/ethnic groups seem much more prone to this tendency than others. I have noticed, for instance, that Jews and Indians (dots, not feathers) never stop whining about long-ago and rather trivial grievances.

    You managed to work your prestigious uni into bored chit-chat with a receptionist? Reminds me of Harvard alum who will never volunteer their Alma mater unless asked, and keep directing the conversation around until asked.

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    • Replies: @Francis G.
    Hygienist, not receptionist. She asked what I did. I said "Student". She asked "Where?". I told her. There then followed a bitter, half-hour harangue during which she had sharp, stabby instruments in my open mouth.
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  34. @Anon
    Gulf War There, Golf War Here.

    I think they should remake TEN COMMANDMENTS with Ramses lording over a golf course.
    Then Moses arrives with his golf club and it turns into a snake and eats the snakes morphed from other golf clubs.

    And then, Moses leads his people out by playing all 18 holes and facing all sorts of obstacles but saved at every turn by God's intervention.

    Old joke: Moses, Mohammed and Jesus are playing golf. Moses drives one down the straightaway and onto the green. Mohammed also hits a long one but it lands in a sand trap. Jesus tees up and hits the ball so it goes into the woods thirty yards from his tee. But a squirrel grabs the ball and runs down the fairway. An eagle snatches up the squirrel and carries it right over the green, where the eagle is struck by lightning. The ball falls down a few inches from the cup but a minor earthquake jiggles it into the cup for a hole-in-one. Moses turns to Jesus with disgust, “Look, are you going to play golf or just f*ck around all day?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag
    Another joke: same trio, but after missing a close putt, one of them yells, "this course!", followed by a blue streak ending with the words, "missed again." A lightning bolts strikes down one of the innocent members, and from the clouds above is heard, "this course!" followed by the same blue streak and "missed again."
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  35. scrivener3 says: • Website

    That’s interesting that lawyers are considered high status in LA. I sort of view then as not very rich because you cannot sell more hours than there are, and not very influential.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.
    , @Marty
    You really ought to read "Clients Against Lawyers," by former Cravath lawyer David Bazelon, Harper's Magazine 9/67. Will cost you $5 but well worth it.
    , @EdwardM
    The professional services business model is that higher-up people leverage lower-level people. Even if a partner is billing $1,000 per hour, the maximum he could bill is around $2.5M per year, meaning a net of maybe $1.5M-$2M at the extreme.

    But he has a team of junior- and mid-level people billing at $400 an hour who are not earning $600K-$800K per year. The average profits per partner at a white-shoe firm can be $3M+, meaning that some minority can make a good deal more than that.

    It's true that one can't attain a nine-figure net worth by law firm earnings alone under normal circumstances, but one isn't limited by the cap of 168 hours per week of one's own billable time.
    , @Jack D

    because you cannot sell more hours than there are,
     
    Old lawyer joke: Lawyer dies and goes to heaven (this is a joke, remember). He is personally greeted at the Pearly Gates by St. Peter and a large band of angels playing harps and singing hosannas. The lawyer says, "St. Peter it's nice that you give me this big greeting, but what did I do in life to deserve this? I was modestly successful but I really wasn't a big deal." And St. Peter replies, "My son, it is not often that we get a 120 year old man up here. The last one was Moses." And the lawyer says, "St. Peter, you must have the wrong man. I was only 78 when I passed away." And St. Peter replies, "No, no - you must have been 120 - we have your time sheets."
    , @Flip
    You sell the hours of the associates that you work to death.
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  36. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    What happened to Sarah Silverman? I remember seeing her on “Monk” and thinking: “Wow, she’s cute”. But it looks almost like she’s turned into an ape-woman or something. Was “Monk” that long ago?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Barnard
    Monk ended in 2009, so yes it was that long ago. I don't remember her guest starring in an episode, but since I have always thought she was annoying and obnoxious I might have skipped that one.
    , @Francis G.
    It's called "hitting the wall". She's actually not too bad for a 46-year-old woman. But she's a "comedian", which means she probably stays out late every night smoking and drinking, which means she will age faster than she otherwise would have. It's her character and personality I find repugnant, not her looks.
    , @william munny
    Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados.
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  37. @Hippopotamusdrome
    OT:
    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    All Roads Lead to Open Borders: Slides

    allroads.pdf

    Quote from chapter 2:


    Imagine a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow. Eeking out a meager living on the tundra. Hankering to move to any fertile country that admits them.
    [photo of tractors making furrows in snow covered ground.]

     

    Yes, I am now imagining "a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow":

    It's the year 2050 and the desired billions of Third World immigrants have moved into the First World thereby transforming it into more Third World. The native inhabitants are now a minority and they feel as comfortable as Boers do now. Some eccentric millionaires have gotten together and built colonies in Antarctica for wealthier whites to escape to. These colonies consist of large geodesic domes with insulated glass, heated with solar and geothermal energy. Vast arrays of heated hydroponic gardens supply food. All First World amenities are available: some domes have malls, some have stadiums, there is even a domed Disneyland. In fact, they are the world's last and only region remaining with First World amenities. Maintaining heated domes in Antarctica is very expensive and only the wealthiest can afford to live there, so the per capita wealth is very high. Hydroponic gardens are also very expensive, yet also high yield, making them the world's most valuable and productive farmlands.

    Bryan Caplan has since evacuated from his home town as soon as too many brown immigrants arrived there and he decamped to his very own Antarctic domed homestead so he can live in a literal "bubble". He got a job teaching economics in a domed university with ivy creeping up the walls, growing under the shine of hydroponic grow lights. From there he publishes articles in his blog decrying Antarctica's restrictive immigration laws.

    Some select articles:

    "Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world's entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes"

    "Massive gaps in Antarctic living standards are a major economic puzzle: Why don't people just move to Antarctica?"

    "Most people are vastly more productive in Antarctica than in Third Word regions like Northwest Europe and North America"

    "It is immoral for Antarticans to condemn the world's population to exile in their wretched temperate glacierless birth countries"

    "Trapping Mexican farm workers on primitive American farms starves them and Antarcticans"

    "Antarctic immigration restrictions imprison talented Muslims in some of the world's poorest countries, such as Germany, Sweden and Britain"

    ---------------------------------

    In fact, people are growing food in Antarctica right now using greenhouses and hydroponics:

    HYDROPONICS AT MC MURDO STATION, ANTARCTICA
    Visit to the McMurdo Greenhouse
    Video of the greenhouse at McMurdo Station, Antarctica

    EDEN ISS greenhouse will supply the German Neumayer III polar station with fresh fruit and vegetables

    The crew of the Chinese Great Wall Station can now exist without some of the supply flights from the mainland. Thanks to their own greenhouse

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    It’s an advocacy book. No need to embellish. The idea of writing a graphic novel to engage in political advocacy isn’t wrong, it’s just Caplan’s deranged morality beneath his ideology.

    I find one early sentence particularly telling:

    Why is mandatory discrimination against people who “chose the wrong parents” morally permissible?

    This is the premise of family. That points been made a thousand times, but it’s a big one. Normal parents discriminate in favor of their birth children vs just other child and that is completely moral and normal.

    Morality is completely subjective. It’s not arbitrary, it’s based on a broad consensus. Murder is generally immoral, with some exceptions, because almost everyone even across major civilizations feels that way. I don’t see anything close to Caplan’s ideas on morality backing his open borders mindset as gaining broad consensus over the next few hundred years.

    I pessimistically see mass migration to US+Europe as winning out in terms of political strength. Will that happen to non-white nations like Japan? Maybe?

    Read More
    • Replies: @guest
    Where's the embellishment? "Propaganda" is a perfectly applicable term. I don't think "advocacy" as more precise meaning.

    "Graphic novel" is pretentious, but I don't really mind it. Nevertheless, "comic book" continues to be the more descriptive term.
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  38. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    Read More
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  39. Dan Hayes says:

    Steve,

    What stuck me after perusing the magnificent layout of the Los Angeles Country Club in the cited Golf Club Atlas was how can the club pay its real estate taxes. Or is there a way that the club has circumvented or mitiated what I would otherwise consider to be super onerous rates?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I had lunch at what's now Trump National Los Angeles with the founder of that oceanside golf course. His dad, the founder of Brentwood CC, teamed up with Bob Hope to get a referendum through in 1962 keeping golf course property taxes low.
    , @Hodag
    Nice to see the treehouse get a mention.

    Most golf courses get an open space or agricultural tax break. LACC is sitting on about 2 billion worth of land.
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  40. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I’ll bet plenty of Jewish kids got kicked out of basketball court and parks because of black thugs.

    Pogroms from the Hoops should be what Jews should be bitching about…

    But then they own and NBA and make big bucks from black talent so, I guess that evens it out.

    Btw, if Jews are really about the People and Equality, they should take up Bowling.

    And you don’t have to join a club to play. Even jesus can play, and he can throw a fit and get away with it. When Jesus threw a fit in the Temple, He got killed. But all is forgiven in a bowling alley.

    Read More
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  41. Hodag says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Iowa is always considered the Flat State, but it's moderately rolling compared to much of Illinois.

    There is no comparison. I have driven around about 1/4 of Iowa and it is almost all golfy compared to northern Illinois.

    http://www.davenportcc.com

    The course pictures on the website actually do not do justice. It is kinda like NGLA show the first tee and the 18th green.

    Read More
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  42. @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    What stuck me after perusing the magnificent layout of the Los Angeles Country Club in the cited Golf Club Atlas was how can the club pay its real estate taxes. Or is there a way that the club has circumvented or mitiated what I would otherwise consider to be super onerous rates?

    I had lunch at what’s now Trump National Los Angeles with the founder of that oceanside golf course. His dad, the founder of Brentwood CC, teamed up with Bob Hope to get a referendum through in 1962 keeping golf course property taxes low.

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Alden
    There is also something called best use. Best use is the most taxes government can get depending on what kind of property.

    Basically, the more buildings and less empty space, the more taxes. So even without a referendum, golf course taxes are lower than if the land was covered with homes, apartments, condos and commercial industrial buildings
    , @Busby
    Gladwell did a whole podcast about how and why private golf clubs pay such low annual property taxes. It's almost an hour of "the people being exploited by the rich and abetted by corrupt public officials".
    In fairness, his podcast on why McDonalds French fries don't and can't, taste like we remember, was informative and entertaining. Spoiler: it's the beef tallow!
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  43. @scrivener3
    That's interesting that lawyers are considered high status in LA. I sort of view then as not very rich because you cannot sell more hours than there are, and not very influential.

    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    California was finally, the land of Gold and Honey.
    , @Thomm

    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.
     
    So, in other words, people from an ethnic group (WASP) that is perhaps 20% of the area within a 20-mile radius of LACC.

    I would say the Spanish Conquistadors who were tied to Juan Rodreguez Cabrillo and Gaspar de Portola have an even stronger claim, since they were much earlier.
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  44. Marty says:
    @AndrewR
    Which uni?

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?

    Berkeley, obviously.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    How on earth is that obvious?
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  45. Lagertha says:

    it’s still the best for sport. well, that is what my Swedish relatives tell me.

    Read More
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  46. @scrivener3
    You managed to work your prestigious uni into bored chit-chat with a receptionist? Reminds me of Harvard alum who will never volunteer their Alma mater unless asked, and keep directing the conversation around until asked.

    Hygienist, not receptionist. She asked what I did. I said “Student”. She asked “Where?”. I told her. There then followed a bitter, half-hour harangue during which she had sharp, stabby instruments in my open mouth.

    Read More
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  47. Lagertha says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.

    California was finally, the land of Gold and Honey.

    Read More
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  48. @Steve Sailer
    A friend of mine who is a tech millionaire tried to get into LACC. He was told they mostly only accepted lawyers who had offices in the skyscrapers of Century City, adjoining the South Course of LACC.

    He was told they mostly only accepted lawyers …

    That’s not the reason.

    You didn’t hear this from me, but word around town is that he’s in the habit of asking working waitresses their SAT scores. Très gauche. :)

    Read More
    • LOL: Whoever
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  49. Marty says:
    @scrivener3
    That's interesting that lawyers are considered high status in LA. I sort of view then as not very rich because you cannot sell more hours than there are, and not very influential.

    You really ought to read “Clients Against Lawyers,” by former Cravath lawyer David Bazelon, Harper’s Magazine 9/67. Will cost you $5 but well worth it.

    Read More
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  50. Hodag says:
    @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    What stuck me after perusing the magnificent layout of the Los Angeles Country Club in the cited Golf Club Atlas was how can the club pay its real estate taxes. Or is there a way that the club has circumvented or mitiated what I would otherwise consider to be super onerous rates?

    Nice to see the treehouse get a mention.

    Most golf courses get an open space or agricultural tax break. LACC is sitting on about 2 billion worth of land.

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Busby
    As I recollect, the extremely low assessed value of the club is because under prop 13 assessments are only updated under very specific terms. Each member only owns a small percentage of the club. There would need to be a 51% change over in members to trigger a re-assessment. I think they actually had to go to court to establish this exception applied to private clubs.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Hodag, The Westwood Country Club here in WNY was the de facto "Jewish" golf course. The membership dwindled and the club was put up for sale. The course is now totally surrounded by chain link fence with prominent signage declaring the site to be a "Hazardous Brown Field." I hear that years of pesticide use and fertilizers render old golf courses unusable unless capped. So maybe LACC is not worth so much.
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  51. Steve-o says:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it's Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?

    I realize that it's cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning, but I certainly could be wrong and I'm fine if someone enlightens me.

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I'm looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can't hold a grudge like that. If non-blue blood whites were kept out of a blue blood-country club, we'd just start our own and move on. Yeah, maybe that first generation would be a little bit bitter, but it'd fade very quickly. (I mean, who cares. Create your own world that better suits you anyway.) But Jews seem to hold on to the silliest of grudges for generations. It's not like some LA WASP killed Silverman's uncle.

    Read Kevin MacDonald’s Culture of Critique. The open borders/clubs for thee and not for me is part of their MO.

    Read More
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  52. Thomm says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.

    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.

    So, in other words, people from an ethnic group (WASP) that is perhaps 20% of the area within a 20-mile radius of LACC.

    I would say the Spanish Conquistadors who were tied to Juan Rodreguez Cabrillo and Gaspar de Portola have an even stronger claim, since they were much earlier.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Nice to see Carl Reiner still kicking.
    https://twitter.com/carlreiner/status/930897307968536576
    , @Pericles
    The high-achieving white does not play favorites.
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  53. newrouter says:

    ot

    Mark Levin and Laura Ingram anti Trump:

    ” the biggest threat they face is human encroachment into their habitat and a resurgence of Chinese immigrants into the African continent fuelling the demand for ivory and sparking rampant illegal hunting and poaching”

    http://hunt-zambia.com/species/elephant/

    lol

    Read More
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  54. Barnard says:
    @Anon
    What happened to Sarah Silverman? I remember seeing her on "Monk" and thinking: "Wow, she's cute". But it looks almost like she's turned into an ape-woman or something. Was "Monk" that long ago?

    Monk ended in 2009, so yes it was that long ago. I don’t remember her guest starring in an episode, but since I have always thought she was annoying and obnoxious I might have skipped that one.

    Read More
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  55. Way off topic, but I see a pattern in all the recent sexual harassment claims. The left is not coming to the defense of their own and now Kirsten Gillibrand says Clinton should have resign. All will fall on their swords so that they can push the claim that Trump should now resign because of allegations of sexual harassment against him. Am I in need of a foil hat?

    Read More
    • Agree: EdwardM
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I like that theory. It's all been orchestrated. After Trump is impeached and removed, Rose McGowen will hold a press conference to say "Just kidding" and Weinstein will go back to making movies. Business as usual. Pass the tin foil...
    , @nebulafox
    I wouldn't be so harsh, but I think you are overestimating the capability of ideologues-of any political stripe-for long term thinking.
    , @bomag
    Nah; the Left is happy to burn a few of their own to establish their witch finding cred.

    Soon they will be lighting pyres under legions of their political opponents.
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  56. @Anon
    What happened to Sarah Silverman? I remember seeing her on "Monk" and thinking: "Wow, she's cute". But it looks almost like she's turned into an ape-woman or something. Was "Monk" that long ago?

    It’s called “hitting the wall”. She’s actually not too bad for a 46-year-old woman. But she’s a “comedian”, which means she probably stays out late every night smoking and drinking, which means she will age faster than she otherwise would have. It’s her character and personality I find repugnant, not her looks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gogo

    It’s called “hitting the wall”. She’s actually not too bad for a 46-year-old woman. But she’s a “comedian”, which means she probably stays out late every night smoking and drinking, which means she will age faster than she otherwise would have. It’s her character and personality I find repugnant, not her looks.
     
    Sarah isn’t a big party gal, but she is a self-described, long-term pot afficiando, and it seems to have helped her maintain the "loose-cannon" aspect of her personality that her peer's are well aware of. It’s probably why she’s still unmarried.

    She boasted that the head writers of her previous show, which included Dan Harmon, were hired in part because they were also her drug dealers.

    Ultimately, she’s not very bright, and has a knack for self-destructing. Men tend to come to her service when she gets in over her head, but at her age, she’ll soon be on her own, and she’ll self-destruct like Kathy Griffin. Bill Maher, and the like, won’t be around to help her...

    https://youtu.be/VsNoO8xMs04
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  57. roo_ster says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome
    OT:
    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    All Roads Lead to Open Borders: Slides

    allroads.pdf

    Quote from chapter 2:


    Imagine a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow. Eeking out a meager living on the tundra. Hankering to move to any fertile country that admits them.
    [photo of tractors making furrows in snow covered ground.]

     

    Yes, I am now imagining "a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow":

    It's the year 2050 and the desired billions of Third World immigrants have moved into the First World thereby transforming it into more Third World. The native inhabitants are now a minority and they feel as comfortable as Boers do now. Some eccentric millionaires have gotten together and built colonies in Antarctica for wealthier whites to escape to. These colonies consist of large geodesic domes with insulated glass, heated with solar and geothermal energy. Vast arrays of heated hydroponic gardens supply food. All First World amenities are available: some domes have malls, some have stadiums, there is even a domed Disneyland. In fact, they are the world's last and only region remaining with First World amenities. Maintaining heated domes in Antarctica is very expensive and only the wealthiest can afford to live there, so the per capita wealth is very high. Hydroponic gardens are also very expensive, yet also high yield, making them the world's most valuable and productive farmlands.

    Bryan Caplan has since evacuated from his home town as soon as too many brown immigrants arrived there and he decamped to his very own Antarctic domed homestead so he can live in a literal "bubble". He got a job teaching economics in a domed university with ivy creeping up the walls, growing under the shine of hydroponic grow lights. From there he publishes articles in his blog decrying Antarctica's restrictive immigration laws.

    Some select articles:

    "Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world's entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes"

    "Massive gaps in Antarctic living standards are a major economic puzzle: Why don't people just move to Antarctica?"

    "Most people are vastly more productive in Antarctica than in Third Word regions like Northwest Europe and North America"

    "It is immoral for Antarticans to condemn the world's population to exile in their wretched temperate glacierless birth countries"

    "Trapping Mexican farm workers on primitive American farms starves them and Antarcticans"

    "Antarctic immigration restrictions imprison talented Muslims in some of the world's poorest countries, such as Germany, Sweden and Britain"

    ---------------------------------

    In fact, people are growing food in Antarctica right now using greenhouses and hydroponics:

    HYDROPONICS AT MC MURDO STATION, ANTARCTICA
    Visit to the McMurdo Greenhouse
    Video of the greenhouse at McMurdo Station, Antarctica

    EDEN ISS greenhouse will supply the German Neumayer III polar station with fresh fruit and vegetables

    The crew of the Chinese Great Wall Station can now exist without some of the supply flights from the mainland. Thanks to their own greenhouse

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    Gotta live the libertarians that suck off the gov’t teat. Way to set the example guys!

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag

    Way to set the example guys!
     
    Indeed.

    I also like the implicit call from libertarians for people to join their cause and use collective political power to install and maintain their "utopia".

    Gotta' get the eggs broken so the omelette can be made.

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  58. guest says:
    @Massimo Heitor

    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

     

    It's an advocacy book. No need to embellish. The idea of writing a graphic novel to engage in political advocacy isn't wrong, it's just Caplan's deranged morality beneath his ideology.

    I find one early sentence particularly telling:


    Why is mandatory discrimination against people who “chose the wrong parents” morally permissible?
     
    This is the premise of family. That points been made a thousand times, but it's a big one. Normal parents discriminate in favor of their birth children vs just other child and that is completely moral and normal.

    Morality is completely subjective. It's not arbitrary, it's based on a broad consensus. Murder is generally immoral, with some exceptions, because almost everyone even across major civilizations feels that way. I don't see anything close to Caplan's ideas on morality backing his open borders mindset as gaining broad consensus over the next few hundred years.

    I pessimistically see mass migration to US+Europe as winning out in terms of political strength. Will that happen to non-white nations like Japan? Maybe?

    Where’s the embellishment? “Propaganda” is a perfectly applicable term. I don’t think “advocacy” as more precise meaning.

    “Graphic novel” is pretentious, but I don’t really mind it. Nevertheless, “comic book” continues to be the more descriptive term.

    Read More
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  59. bomag says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome
    OT:
    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    All Roads Lead to Open Borders: Slides

    allroads.pdf

    Quote from chapter 2:


    Imagine a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow. Eeking out a meager living on the tundra. Hankering to move to any fertile country that admits them.
    [photo of tractors making furrows in snow covered ground.]

     

    Yes, I am now imagining "a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow":

    It's the year 2050 and the desired billions of Third World immigrants have moved into the First World thereby transforming it into more Third World. The native inhabitants are now a minority and they feel as comfortable as Boers do now. Some eccentric millionaires have gotten together and built colonies in Antarctica for wealthier whites to escape to. These colonies consist of large geodesic domes with insulated glass, heated with solar and geothermal energy. Vast arrays of heated hydroponic gardens supply food. All First World amenities are available: some domes have malls, some have stadiums, there is even a domed Disneyland. In fact, they are the world's last and only region remaining with First World amenities. Maintaining heated domes in Antarctica is very expensive and only the wealthiest can afford to live there, so the per capita wealth is very high. Hydroponic gardens are also very expensive, yet also high yield, making them the world's most valuable and productive farmlands.

    Bryan Caplan has since evacuated from his home town as soon as too many brown immigrants arrived there and he decamped to his very own Antarctic domed homestead so he can live in a literal "bubble". He got a job teaching economics in a domed university with ivy creeping up the walls, growing under the shine of hydroponic grow lights. From there he publishes articles in his blog decrying Antarctica's restrictive immigration laws.

    Some select articles:

    "Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world's entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes"

    "Massive gaps in Antarctic living standards are a major economic puzzle: Why don't people just move to Antarctica?"

    "Most people are vastly more productive in Antarctica than in Third Word regions like Northwest Europe and North America"

    "It is immoral for Antarticans to condemn the world's population to exile in their wretched temperate glacierless birth countries"

    "Trapping Mexican farm workers on primitive American farms starves them and Antarcticans"

    "Antarctic immigration restrictions imprison talented Muslims in some of the world's poorest countries, such as Germany, Sweden and Britain"

    ---------------------------------

    In fact, people are growing food in Antarctica right now using greenhouses and hydroponics:

    HYDROPONICS AT MC MURDO STATION, ANTARCTICA
    Visit to the McMurdo Greenhouse
    Video of the greenhouse at McMurdo Station, Antarctica

    EDEN ISS greenhouse will supply the German Neumayer III polar station with fresh fruit and vegetables

    The crew of the Chinese Great Wall Station can now exist without some of the supply flights from the mainland. Thanks to their own greenhouse

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    To make the point, five hundred people should barge into Caplan’s classroom and excitedly brag about how much their education has improved just by walking across the border of GMU. Then follow him home and brag about how housing quality has increased for themselves just by walking through the border of his walls.

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    • Replies: @guest
    The go-to is usually to propose free access to his wife. Caplan already has kids, why not let a Mexican take a crack at it?
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  60. Hhsiii says:
    @Steve Sailer
    A friend of mine who is a tech millionaire tried to get into LACC. He was told they mostly only accepted lawyers who had offices in the skyscrapers of Century City, adjoining the South Course of LACC.

    Steve’s favorite is The National

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  61. @Buffalo Joe
    Way off topic, but I see a pattern in all the recent sexual harassment claims. The left is not coming to the defense of their own and now Kirsten Gillibrand says Clinton should have resign. All will fall on their swords so that they can push the claim that Trump should now resign because of allegations of sexual harassment against him. Am I in need of a foil hat?

    I like that theory. It’s all been orchestrated. After Trump is impeached and removed, Rose McGowen will hold a press conference to say “Just kidding” and Weinstein will go back to making movies. Business as usual. Pass the tin foil…

    Read More
    • Replies: @guest
    The above poster didn't stipulate that the allegations are false. The Narrative is that with Weinstein it was an "everybody knows" thing for decades. So why has it come out now? Possibly to get Trump.

    Not very likely, but Harv doesn't have to be innocent for it to be a conspiracy.

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  62. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Thomm

    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.
     
    So, in other words, people from an ethnic group (WASP) that is perhaps 20% of the area within a 20-mile radius of LACC.

    I would say the Spanish Conquistadors who were tied to Juan Rodreguez Cabrillo and Gaspar de Portola have an even stronger claim, since they were much earlier.

    Nice to see Carl Reiner still kicking.

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  63. bomag says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    Old joke: Moses, Mohammed and Jesus are playing golf. Moses drives one down the straightaway and onto the green. Mohammed also hits a long one but it lands in a sand trap. Jesus tees up and hits the ball so it goes into the woods thirty yards from his tee. But a squirrel grabs the ball and runs down the fairway. An eagle snatches up the squirrel and carries it right over the green, where the eagle is struck by lightning. The ball falls down a few inches from the cup but a minor earthquake jiggles it into the cup for a hole-in-one. Moses turns to Jesus with disgust, "Look, are you going to play golf or just f*ck around all day?"

    Another joke: same trio, but after missing a close putt, one of them yells, “this course!”, followed by a blue streak ending with the words, “missed again.” A lightning bolts strikes down one of the innocent members, and from the clouds above is heard, “this course!” followed by the same blue streak and “missed again.”

    Read More
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  64. nebulafox says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Way off topic, but I see a pattern in all the recent sexual harassment claims. The left is not coming to the defense of their own and now Kirsten Gillibrand says Clinton should have resign. All will fall on their swords so that they can push the claim that Trump should now resign because of allegations of sexual harassment against him. Am I in need of a foil hat?

    I wouldn’t be so harsh, but I think you are overestimating the capability of ideologues-of any political stripe-for long term thinking.

    Read More
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  65. @fish

    Catholics don’t have quite as long memories for grievances.
     
    Speaking from experience I have to disagree..... Irish Alzheimer’s (almost all Catholics in my personal experience)....where you forget everything except your grudges!

    I agree with fish. A really good writer named John O’Hara basically made millions of dollars in the 40s and 50s writing stories which often contained long passages about Catholic resentments of WASPs (‘The Golden Idol’, about the Porcellian Club at Harvard, was the most famous, although the word ‘Catholic’ does not appear … the story is written as if the narrator had been excluded from the Porcellian for other reasons). He was of Irish descent, born in Pennsylvania. The Godfather franchise (more the lousy novels than the Jungian movies) contain many lines of dialogue from self-pitying Italians, angry that the United States was not happy to have experienced as much Italian and Sicilian immigration as it did. And, to shift to golf – I was lucky enough (growing up on Long Island) to play on several golf courses that PG Wodehouse, the greatest golf writer in history, also played on (I think – I assume that the courses I played on in the 1970s, all within a half hour drive from his house, were courses he would have played on in his relatively youthful 1950s. Maybe I am wrong) . (well, I did not play on the legendary Southampton one, but I did play – badly, but who cares now – on every other good one within 40 miles of the Wodehouse home in Remsenberg). I looked at all the pictures on the link to the LA Country Club – that is one impressive course. Still, I prefer the Long Island golf courses, with their better relationship to the ocean breezes, and their more vintage trees, and their more naturally watered grass.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    O'Hara, huh? That's the Irish...

    Their grievance is first with the English and second with the Orangemen. Given their history it's comparable to Greek or other Oriental Christian resentment of Turks. Italians really don't give a damn; Mario Puzo was a good plotter but I think he spent too much time around Jews. Still, I didn't see any resentment of WASPs, or even the use of the term. Kay was after all the most sympathetic character in the book and her parents were great in the one scene they had. (Novels? I only read one...)

    What about German Catholics? How come everybody always ignores the Germans?
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Also Fitzgerald, who has Nick tell newly-posh bootlegger Gatsby he's "worth the whole lot of" shallow old-money hypocrites like the Buchanans.
    , @guest
    Most of O'Hara's novels are about WASPs, and all of them are sympathetic, if not always flattering, portrayals. Check out the surnames of some of his protagonists:

    Appointment in Samara- English (need I say?)

    Butterfield 8- Ligett (Anglo-Saxon)

    Pal Joey- Evans (Welsh?)

    A Rage to Live- Caldwell (Anglo-Saxon)

    Ten North Frederick- Chapin (English I think)

    From the Terrace- Eaton (Anglo-Saxon)

    The only O'Hara novel with an Irish protagonist of which I'm aware is Malloy from Hope of Heaven.

    The short stories are another matter, and I've only read a smattering of them. But an awful big part of O'Hara's reputation--and I'd bet almost his entire legacy for contemporary readers (short stories are often read anymore)--is literature about WASPs. As far as I recall, they're not works of ethnic grievance.

    Certainly, they're better than you'd expect Englishmen to do writing novel after novel about Irishmen.
    , @guest
    I should stipulate that I'm speaking from a Current Year perspective. Back in the day, they very well may have looked upon O'Hara as an uppity paddie making money off denigrating his social betters. But compared to all the modernist trash attacking upright middle-class whites I've ever read, it's mild. And I imagine someone with real ethnic grievances in that era would've been more acidic about it.

    I was reading the Late George Apley some time ago. It satirizes the Brahmin class in Boston, which may be why it won the Pulitzer. But by today's standards, it's as mild as unadorned oatmeal. You might not deduce from that the fact that the author, John P. Marquand, is Old Massachusetts. The surname is French, I imagine, but on his mother's side he's the great-nephew of New England feminist icon Margaret Fuller. He wasn't a traitor to his people or anything, but was biting and ironic in the modern manner (or a subdued, popular, mainstream version of that manner).

    O'Hara was more modernistic, more down and dirty, but not fundamentally different, I don't think. He wasn't some ethnic- or class-warrior. Just a guy who got good material out of a group he probably resented socially, without going into Grievance Mode.

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  66. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @AndrewR
    Which uni?

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?

    Maybe the father’s Roy Moore?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Good one.
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  67. bomag says:
    @roo_ster
    Gotta live the libertarians that suck off the gov't teat. Way to set the example guys!

    Way to set the example guys!

    Indeed.

    I also like the implicit call from libertarians for people to join their cause and use collective political power to install and maintain their “utopia”.

    Gotta’ get the eggs broken so the omelette can be made.

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  68. bomag says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Way off topic, but I see a pattern in all the recent sexual harassment claims. The left is not coming to the defense of their own and now Kirsten Gillibrand says Clinton should have resign. All will fall on their swords so that they can push the claim that Trump should now resign because of allegations of sexual harassment against him. Am I in need of a foil hat?

    Nah; the Left is happy to burn a few of their own to establish their witch finding cred.

    Soon they will be lighting pyres under legions of their political opponents.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy

    Nah; the Left is happy to burn a few of their own to establish their witch finding cred.

     

    Some Team Dem self-immolation is to be expected as the faithful continue their Kubler-Ross cycle after the death of the Hillary Vision. Pity the poor dears for their wandering, flagellation and assorted lashing out, as there is much amusement therein, and then pour another one and get back to enjoying the show. Next, we'll see an uptick in counseling, a few flame-outs and more soul-searching. At least the old Dems limited things to staring thoughtfully into the middle distance. The new breed have too many feelz to adapt like adults. Math and Adulting are hard.
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  69. @Steve Sailer
    Iowa is always considered the Flat State, but it's moderately rolling compared to much of Illinois.

    Davenport is on the Mississippi River, so it’s got the river valley topography going for it. Both of Iowa’s riverine borders have some nice scenery in places.

    You’re right about the ‘Iowa is so flat’ stereotype being mostly wrong, but most of north-central Iowa was pretty much pancaked by the glaciers. Northern Illinois is worse, though, it’s true.

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  70. buk says:
    @Francis G.
    Berkeley.

    She appeared to be in her mid-60s at the time. I call that late-middle-aged. What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?

    She appeared to be in her mid-60s at the time. I call that late-middle-aged. What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?

    In Los Angeles?

    Middle age is 28-35

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    • LOL: AndrewR
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  71. it is weird. according to the sock puppet mulatto of Revisionist History, the la golf courses are paying almost no tax vs the value of their land and la has no public parks.

    i believe him.

    move up to pdx.

    lots and lots and lots of golf courses, good golf courses, good public golf courses.

    the mountain view #12 is unique. just like Sayler’s Old Country Kitchen‘s 72 oz steak.

    the view from the tee:
    when lala men like steve are reincarnated (with good karma) they become portland men.

    Sayler’s

    sad!

    …on the west texas plains…well it’s so long…been good to know ya…

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  72. Alden says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I've never been to Hillcrest. I've played Rancho, the municipal course that is next door to Hillcrest, and it has lots of interesting ups and downs. The layout of Rancho, unfortunately, only takes full advantage of the terrain a few times.

    LACC's terrain is even more fun. It's right at the edge of being too dramatic (like Bel Air built a few years later, which requires tunnels under famous mansions and golf cart elevators up mountains to connect the pieces of playable land), and yet it remains playable and walkable. The LACC people no doubt looked at the property of what's now Hillcrest and chose to buy what's now LACC instead. After all, they were their first, which is why they are named Los Angeles Country Club and why they have the best property.

    And the LACC membership has paid a lot over the years to get the course design right. First they paid expensive British designer Herbert Fowler to build in in the early 1920s, then they had it redesigned in the late 1920s by George C. Thomas. And recently it was refurbished by Gil Hanse to get it ready for the 2023 US Open.

    Hillcrest, in contrast, is famous for investing in its dining facilities rather than its golf course.

    The usual rule of thumb in the country club management business is that WASPs and Irish Catholics care most about golf and the bar, while Jews care most about the dining room and entertainment.

    Do you mean Rancho Park Golf Course on Pico ? It has a nice little restaurant.

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  73. Ivy says:
    @bomag
    Nah; the Left is happy to burn a few of their own to establish their witch finding cred.

    Soon they will be lighting pyres under legions of their political opponents.

    Nah; the Left is happy to burn a few of their own to establish their witch finding cred.

    Some Team Dem self-immolation is to be expected as the faithful continue their Kubler-Ross cycle after the death of the Hillary Vision. Pity the poor dears for their wandering, flagellation and assorted lashing out, as there is much amusement therein, and then pour another one and get back to enjoying the show. Next, we’ll see an uptick in counseling, a few flame-outs and more soul-searching. At least the old Dems limited things to staring thoughtfully into the middle distance. The new breed have too many feelz to adapt like adults. Math and Adulting are hard.

    Read More
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  74. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it's Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?

    I realize that it's cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning, but I certainly could be wrong and I'm fine if someone enlightens me.

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I'm looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can't hold a grudge like that. If non-blue blood whites were kept out of a blue blood-country club, we'd just start our own and move on. Yeah, maybe that first generation would be a little bit bitter, but it'd fade very quickly. (I mean, who cares. Create your own world that better suits you anyway.) But Jews seem to hold on to the silliest of grudges for generations. It's not like some LA WASP killed Silverman's uncle.

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning

    It’s actually a pretty smart strategy for maintaining group identity. Especially when religion will no longer serve that purpose. Jews in the US would no longer exist as a distinctive group without that common bond of shared oppression. The fact that it’s imaginary oppression doesn’t matter. It still works.

    Other ethnic groups have done the same thing, but never anywhere near as effectively. I used to know a Scottish-Australian who was still really really angry about Culloden. I’m not sure if he realised that the Duke of Cumberland was dead now.

    Assimilation is cultural genocide and if you want to avoid that fate you need something emotionally powerful enough to make assimilation impossible.

    Even sub-cultures do it a certain extent. The lesbian sub-culture sustained itself for so long with fantasies of being oppressed. The fact that no-one has ever cared enough about lesbians to bother oppressing them made no difference. Without that fantasy they would have had no identity at all.

    Read More
    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    There's a strange scene in Mad Men about some intra-Scottish feud involving Pete Campbell that supposedly is still going on in upper crust US circles among wealthy Scot-Americans.
    , @Anonymous

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I’m looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can’t hold a grudge like that.
     
    And that's why you will never be Jewish. Holding grudges is at the very core of what they are as a people.

    The memory, or the fabrication (doesn't really matter which) of a source for a centuries-long grudge is a cause for celebration among them. Sometimes the centuries run into millennia.

    They campaign loudly and fervently against "hate" on anyone else's part, but hatred is at their very core and is the one thing which always holds them together.

    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Want to keep cultural identity? Cry Among the Farmland:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/news/gta/2017/06/30/i-was-white-until-i-came-to-canada-paradkar.html
    , @Big Bill
    It is helpful if you convert your grudge into the seasonal liturgy of your ethnic group. Good Friday for Christians and Ashura for the Shia, for example. The Jews have a more generic warning (I forget the holiday) and recite an annual prayer that "every year they will come to get us" (can't remember the exact words).

    The Holocaust is a recent addition to Jewish religious liturgy, too. "Yom ha'Shoah" was added to the Jewish liturgical calendar in 1953 in Israel and has spread all over the Jewish world. It has been so successful that Israel lobbied for a gentile holocaust remembrance day. This was added to the UN's "liturgical calendar" (so to speak) in 2005 as "International Holocaust Memorial Day" (27 January).

    Three points. First, you must "never forget". Second, you must embed your beef into your own ethnoreligious liturgy. Third, (if you want to be really successful), you have to embed your beef into other cultures/ethnies as well.

    But the most important of these is never ever forget.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    The gay Showtime series Queer As Folk (an American remake of a British show) included a gay bashing, the bombing of a gay club, and a politician sponsoring a law that would have effectively banned homosexuality. There was also a gay couple whose adopted teen hustler son decides to date a girl, to his adoptive dads' consternation.
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  75. @dfordoom

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning
     
    It's actually a pretty smart strategy for maintaining group identity. Especially when religion will no longer serve that purpose. Jews in the US would no longer exist as a distinctive group without that common bond of shared oppression. The fact that it's imaginary oppression doesn't matter. It still works.

    Other ethnic groups have done the same thing, but never anywhere near as effectively. I used to know a Scottish-Australian who was still really really angry about Culloden. I'm not sure if he realised that the Duke of Cumberland was dead now.

    Assimilation is cultural genocide and if you want to avoid that fate you need something emotionally powerful enough to make assimilation impossible.

    Even sub-cultures do it a certain extent. The lesbian sub-culture sustained itself for so long with fantasies of being oppressed. The fact that no-one has ever cared enough about lesbians to bother oppressing them made no difference. Without that fantasy they would have had no identity at all.

    There’s a strange scene in Mad Men about some intra-Scottish feud involving Pete Campbell that supposedly is still going on in upper crust US circles among wealthy Scot-Americans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Francis G.
    Attend a highland games event in North America and see how everyone reacts to Clan Campbell. Three centuries ago is still yesterday. The Glencoe Massacre will never be forgiven.
    , @guest
    That was a reference to the Glencoe Massacre of 1692, which actually is a big deal in Anglo-Scottish history. 78 members of Clan McDonald were massacred or left to die by Clan Campbell, after having accepted the McDonalds' hospitality. This was shortly after the Glorious Revolution and the first Jacobite uprising. The McDonalds were suspected of loyalty to James VII.

    Mad Men played it for laughs, having the feud come up out of nowhere and Pete shouting something ridiculous like, "the king ordered it!"

    I imagine someone on staff at some point looked up what significance the name "Campbell" has in Scottish history, or maybe they just ran across the Glencoe story and thought, "Hey, this'd be funny."

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  76. loop says:

    The Sarah Silverman vid reminds me of something some world notorious anti-Semitic used to often say a long time ago:

    When Jews get caught with their public figures moral pants around their ankles, their public figures always almost joyously double-down, to the ultimate detriment of their constituency.

    Normally a logical person would rightly consider lowering their profile at least, or pointedly speaking out against abhorrent behavior with a call for accountability at most, but Jews with some power in the media and elsewhere appear to tend to recoil from the better idea, Larry David being an outlier.

    I wonder, if you’re bigoted, you’re still able to make objectively qualifiable accurate observations that a moral, casual observer should consider?

    Am I wrong if I notice what a bad person notices? Or are Jewish media figures wrong for reinforcing negative stereotypes of amoral corruption, by inhabiting those stereotypes with no apparent shame or self-awareness, while claiming the observations of that corruption to be “offensively anti-semetic?”

    And finally, if you leave out huge chunks of facts that would certainly undermine the theme that fuels your skit, does the glaring omissions make you a liar, and thus, a bad Jew, Sarah Silverman? Are your choices serving as the fuel for passive-aggressive behavior by non-jews later on down the road, by objectifying yourself as “the other” by your own actions?

    Tell me, Sarah Silverman. I must know.

    Why are you so much like Sarah Silverman, and not so much like Larry David?

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  77. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Silverman gets undeserved praise for her smarts. Her political arguments are childish SJW projections, lies, hypocrisy.

    Can you guess why her new show is called “I Love You America”…?

    Yes, I think you can.

    It’s because she actually doesn’t love the country…because the country is filled with nonSJWs who have no moral right to ownership of the country.

    America is impossible to love America and every right-thinking SJW knows it!

    But it wouldn’t be “funny” (in the right way) to call the show I Hate You America. Oh sure honesty about such issues can be delivered to the masses… but only in the form of double reverse jujitsu passive aggression.

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  78. @Steve Sailer
    There's a strange scene in Mad Men about some intra-Scottish feud involving Pete Campbell that supposedly is still going on in upper crust US circles among wealthy Scot-Americans.

    Attend a highland games event in North America and see how everyone reacts to Clan Campbell. Three centuries ago is still yesterday. The Glencoe Massacre will never be forgiven.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    The gormless Australian Media made a big fuss over the last few Australian survivors of the 14/18 War.

    A televised meeting was shown of Western Front survivor Frank MacDonald, an old grazier aged about 105, and Alec Campbell, the last Australian veteran of Gallipoli, aged about 99.

    MacDonald's first words were ''Campbell, eh?''
    , @dfordoom

    Three centuries ago is still yesterday. The Glencoe Massacre will never be forgiven.
     
    My uncle was a Scottish-Australian. In fact his Scottish ancestry was pretty distant. But if you mentioned Glencoe to him...

    Ethnic/cultural groups and sub-cultures that hold grudges and cherish the memories of ancient wrongs actually seem to be pretty successful. Or at least it seems to be a successful strategy for coping with being a minority in another country. The Irish did pretty well in the US (and in Australia) as long as they kept the flame of anti-English hatred burning. Now that that has faded the Irish have lost their identity and they're facing extinction as a distinctive ethnic/cultural group.

    The Scots used to be very successful in Australia. Now that their hatred of the Sassenachs has faded they've been largely assimilated into extinction.

    Assimilation is death, and hatred (or at least a powerful sense of grievance) is the best defence.

    The trouble with Anglos is that we have no historical memory at all, and no identity. If the English had continued to hate the French as their hereditary enemies they would never have entered an alliance with them in the early 20th century and the tragedy of the First World War might have been avoided. And if the English had kept hating the French they would never have joined the EU.

    Hate works.
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  79. Alden says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I had lunch at what's now Trump National Los Angeles with the founder of that oceanside golf course. His dad, the founder of Brentwood CC, teamed up with Bob Hope to get a referendum through in 1962 keeping golf course property taxes low.

    There is also something called best use. Best use is the most taxes government can get depending on what kind of property.

    Basically, the more buildings and less empty space, the more taxes. So even without a referendum, golf course taxes are lower than if the land was covered with homes, apartments, condos and commercial industrial buildings

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  80. Alden says:
    @fish

    Catholics don’t have quite as long memories for grievances.
     
    Speaking from experience I have to disagree..... Irish Alzheimer’s (almost all Catholics in my personal experience)....where you forget everything except your grudges!

    That’s just the Irish. There are lots of jokes, hold a grudge till it wears out. An Irishman will give up his alcohol before he gives up his grudges

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  81. Alden says:
    @Thomm

    But a surprising number of people care about minor variants in the social standing of their ancestors, such as whether great-grandpa could get into LACC or not.
     
    Most people's Great Grandparents were poor! Even basic necessities were perpetually in doubt that far back. Life expectancy in the US in 1900 was just 47.

    Anyone whose Great Grandfather could even play golf at all, that too at Hillcrest, was ultraprivileged. Note that this was *before* the Holocaust in Europe that killed 6 million Jews.

    How do they manage to whine about 1920s LACC when Auschwitz and Treblinka were in fact more recent than that (not that they don't whine about that a lot too, but that is at least a real mistreatment).

    Ever heard them talk about Poland? It’s the ultimate Jewish nightmare,worse than Hitler. And it continued for about 500 years, far worse than Hitler’s 12. Listening to their endless tales about the persecution one wonders how any of them managed to survive to come to America.

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  82. Rod1963 says:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it's Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?

    I realize that it's cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning, but I certainly could be wrong and I'm fine if someone enlightens me.

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I'm looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can't hold a grudge like that. If non-blue blood whites were kept out of a blue blood-country club, we'd just start our own and move on. Yeah, maybe that first generation would be a little bit bitter, but it'd fade very quickly. (I mean, who cares. Create your own world that better suits you anyway.) But Jews seem to hold on to the silliest of grudges for generations. It's not like some LA WASP killed Silverman's uncle.

    Jews don’t want whites to maintain their ethnic identities at all. They want to keep us atomized, individualized so we can barely organize a bake sale so to speak.

    This is why the tribal clown car posse freaked out over Trump’s victory, when they saw all those whites voting for a man they hated and did everything to destroy. It wasn’t supposed to happen.

    Hence their war on our clubs, schools, Christianity and lilly white towns. Socially cohesive whites are anathema to them, a threat to their power. Their power resides in keeping us fractured. So when some white Christian baker says “no” to making a wedding cake for lesbians he’s all alone and the Jews can have some prog judge issue a fatwa and make a example out of him. If a thousand whites stood with him and said “come and enforce your crooked decrees” they’d run.

    There is no freedom of association for whites. For ethnics and Jews yes. And you can put the blame on the tribe for this.

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  83. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Francis G.
    Attend a highland games event in North America and see how everyone reacts to Clan Campbell. Three centuries ago is still yesterday. The Glencoe Massacre will never be forgiven.

    The gormless Australian Media made a big fuss over the last few Australian survivors of the 14/18 War.

    A televised meeting was shown of Western Front survivor Frank MacDonald, an old grazier aged about 105, and Alec Campbell, the last Australian veteran of Gallipoli, aged about 99.

    MacDonald’s first words were ”Campbell, eh?”

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    • Replies: @Francis G.
    My mother has Campbell ancestry. When I was staying in the Scottish highlands around lots of Macdonalds, I knew better than to admit to having Campbells in my family. When asked, I always said my Scottish ancestors were Macnairs. Apparently the Macnairs were OK in everyone's book.
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  84. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @dfordoom

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning
     
    It's actually a pretty smart strategy for maintaining group identity. Especially when religion will no longer serve that purpose. Jews in the US would no longer exist as a distinctive group without that common bond of shared oppression. The fact that it's imaginary oppression doesn't matter. It still works.

    Other ethnic groups have done the same thing, but never anywhere near as effectively. I used to know a Scottish-Australian who was still really really angry about Culloden. I'm not sure if he realised that the Duke of Cumberland was dead now.

    Assimilation is cultural genocide and if you want to avoid that fate you need something emotionally powerful enough to make assimilation impossible.

    Even sub-cultures do it a certain extent. The lesbian sub-culture sustained itself for so long with fantasies of being oppressed. The fact that no-one has ever cared enough about lesbians to bother oppressing them made no difference. Without that fantasy they would have had no identity at all.

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I’m looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can’t hold a grudge like that.

    And that’s why you will never be Jewish. Holding grudges is at the very core of what they are as a people.

    The memory, or the fabrication (doesn’t really matter which) of a source for a centuries-long grudge is a cause for celebration among them. Sometimes the centuries run into millennia.

    They campaign loudly and fervently against “hate” on anyone else’s part, but hatred is at their very core and is the one thing which always holds them together.

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  85. Karl says:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it's Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?

    I realize that it's cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning, but I certainly could be wrong and I'm fine if someone enlightens me.

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I'm looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can't hold a grudge like that. If non-blue blood whites were kept out of a blue blood-country club, we'd just start our own and move on. Yeah, maybe that first generation would be a little bit bitter, but it'd fade very quickly. (I mean, who cares. Create your own world that better suits you anyway.) But Jews seem to hold on to the silliest of grudges for generations. It's not like some LA WASP killed Silverman's uncle.

    13 Citizen of a Silly Country > Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs

    There are actually close to zero of them in the USA.

    There’s lots of them that don’t advertise openly for “diverse” new members – but then again, neither does Local 20 of the Steamfitters union or Local 1607 0f the Millwright’s union

    Do you actually want to daven with the Satmars? Just say the word, i’ll set you up with a recommendation. They won’t inspect your circumcision.

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    • Replies: @slumber_j

    13 Citizen of a Silly Country > Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs

    There are actually close to zero of them in the USA.
     
    Excuse me?
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  86. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Thomm

    But a surprising number of people care about minor variants in the social standing of their ancestors, such as whether great-grandpa could get into LACC or not.
     
    Most people's Great Grandparents were poor! Even basic necessities were perpetually in doubt that far back. Life expectancy in the US in 1900 was just 47.

    Anyone whose Great Grandfather could even play golf at all, that too at Hillcrest, was ultraprivileged. Note that this was *before* the Holocaust in Europe that killed 6 million Jews.

    How do they manage to whine about 1920s LACC when Auschwitz and Treblinka were in fact more recent than that (not that they don't whine about that a lot too, but that is at least a real mistreatment).

    My great-grandparents were quite illustrious, and each generation since has been downhill. Frankly, the decline has been a bit steep.

    If I told you what they did, you’d know who they were, but it most definitely wasn’t playing golf.

    Now, though, the entire family is actually vanishing. So, it does happen, and I suppose some of us have to make way for all the new arrivals.

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    • Replies: @bartok

    My great-grandparents were quite illustrious
     
    All eight of 'em?
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  87. Pericles says:
    @Thomm

    The social basis of LACC are the descendants of the real estate developers, bankers, and lawyers who made Southern California into a going concern from 1887 onward.
     
    So, in other words, people from an ethnic group (WASP) that is perhaps 20% of the area within a 20-mile radius of LACC.

    I would say the Spanish Conquistadors who were tied to Juan Rodreguez Cabrillo and Gaspar de Portola have an even stronger claim, since they were much earlier.

    The high-achieving white does not play favorites.

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  88. AndrewR says:
    @AndrewR
    Which uni?

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?

    People age at different rates. At 65, some people are clearly elderly while others aren’t. In the context of a hygienist I would just say “an older hygienist.”

    Anyway, I would have said “Berkeley has allowed totalitarian communists to permanently destroyed its reputation. Your son should be very happy that he doesn’t have the stain of a Berkeley degree.”

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  89. AndrewR says:
    @Marty
    Berkeley, obviously.

    How on earth is that obvious?

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    • Replies: @Marty
    No other school thought of as "prestigious," recently in the news for conduct destructive of its reputation, and known for physics or math PhD's who might get hired at LLL, came to mind. Has Caltech been doing something to destroy its rep that I missed?
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  90. Gogo says:
    @Francis G.
    It's called "hitting the wall". She's actually not too bad for a 46-year-old woman. But she's a "comedian", which means she probably stays out late every night smoking and drinking, which means she will age faster than she otherwise would have. It's her character and personality I find repugnant, not her looks.

    It’s called “hitting the wall”. She’s actually not too bad for a 46-year-old woman. But she’s a “comedian”, which means she probably stays out late every night smoking and drinking, which means she will age faster than she otherwise would have. It’s her character and personality I find repugnant, not her looks.

    Sarah isn’t a big party gal, but she is a self-described, long-term pot afficiando, and it seems to have helped her maintain the “loose-cannon” aspect of her personality that her peer’s are well aware of. It’s probably why she’s still unmarried.

    She boasted that the head writers of her previous show, which included Dan Harmon, were hired in part because they were also her drug dealers.

    Ultimately, she’s not very bright, and has a knack for self-destructing. Men tend to come to her service when she gets in over her head, but at her age, she’ll soon be on her own, and she’ll self-destruct like Kathy Griffin. Bill Maher, and the like, won’t be around to help her…

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    She worked well enough in "School of Rock" because:
    a) she was just attractive enough that you could see why Jack Black's nebbishy roommate would put up with her horrible personality;
    b) she wasn't so attractive that you wondered how Jack Black's nebbishy roommate could get a chick like that in the first place;
    c) her personality was horrible enough that you could see why the nebbishy roommate would dump her by the end of the movie, even if she was the only physical relationship he had ever had and ever might have.

    Sarah Silverman: for men who figure they're gonna HAVE to settle.
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  91. @anon
    The gormless Australian Media made a big fuss over the last few Australian survivors of the 14/18 War.

    A televised meeting was shown of Western Front survivor Frank MacDonald, an old grazier aged about 105, and Alec Campbell, the last Australian veteran of Gallipoli, aged about 99.

    MacDonald's first words were ''Campbell, eh?''

    My mother has Campbell ancestry. When I was staying in the Scottish highlands around lots of Macdonalds, I knew better than to admit to having Campbells in my family. When asked, I always said my Scottish ancestors were Macnairs. Apparently the Macnairs were OK in everyone’s book.

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  92. @Anon
    What happened to Sarah Silverman? I remember seeing her on "Monk" and thinking: "Wow, she's cute". But it looks almost like she's turned into an ape-woman or something. Was "Monk" that long ago?

    Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados.

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    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    "Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados."

    What does that mean? Avocado, whether fruit or vegetable, is nothing I have much experience with.

    If he had used watermelons or cantaloupes, I could work with that. Got nothin' on avocados though.
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  93. bartok says:
    @Anonymous
    My great-grandparents were quite illustrious, and each generation since has been downhill. Frankly, the decline has been a bit steep.

    If I told you what they did, you'd know who they were, but it most definitely wasn't playing golf.

    Now, though, the entire family is actually vanishing. So, it does happen, and I suppose some of us have to make way for all the new arrivals.

    My great-grandparents were quite illustrious

    All eight of ‘em?

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  94. Busby says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I had lunch at what's now Trump National Los Angeles with the founder of that oceanside golf course. His dad, the founder of Brentwood CC, teamed up with Bob Hope to get a referendum through in 1962 keeping golf course property taxes low.

    Gladwell did a whole podcast about how and why private golf clubs pay such low annual property taxes. It’s almost an hour of “the people being exploited by the rich and abetted by corrupt public officials”.
    In fairness, his podcast on why McDonalds French fries don’t and can’t, taste like we remember, was informative and entertaining. Spoiler: it’s the beef tallow!

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  95. Busby says:
    @Hodag
    Nice to see the treehouse get a mention.

    Most golf courses get an open space or agricultural tax break. LACC is sitting on about 2 billion worth of land.

    As I recollect, the extremely low assessed value of the club is because under prop 13 assessments are only updated under very specific terms. Each member only owns a small percentage of the club. There would need to be a 51% change over in members to trigger a re-assessment. I think they actually had to go to court to establish this exception applied to private clubs.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
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  96. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.

    Perhaps the Buddha is famous today because (in reality) he was the hardest charger of them all in the Guru Industry, just as Harvey Weinstein produced more Oscar-nominated virtue-signaling movies than any other.

    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.

    Not Grant Cardone. He says you have to obsessed or you’ll be average. You need to wake up each day and say, “Who’s got my money?!” and then go get it. Cardone is a perfect example of how hard work is more important than smarts to get rich. Cardone was a terrible student and barely got his degree from McNeese State University after 5 years. Afterwards he floundered and did drugs. Then at 25 he found the way to rise above the crowd and get filthy rich (his only goal). Just work 10 times harder than everyone else (“The 10x Rule”). People naturally put the amount of work they deem necessary for the job so you overtake them all with 10x. He said friends, family, coworkers, and even management will tell you to ease up, don’t work so hard, but you have to stay strong and ignore all the advice and put in sick levels of action and work. It worked for him. Along with being a consummate huckster hustler. He started in car sales and now is worth 9 figures and owns thousands of luxury apartment rental properties in L.A., Miami, and elsewhere.

    Grant Cardone: The 10x Rule

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    • Replies: @guest
    We know he wasn't a great student, but does that mean he wasn't smart?

    Guess what, stupid people usually aren't smart enough to figure out that you have to consistently work hard to get ahead. And even if they manage to figure that much out, they're not smart enough to maintain discipline.
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  97. Sean says:

    There were some seriously rich Gentiles who bought studios (to hump actresses).Howard Hughs maybe wasn’t into golf , but I believe Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. was * and was the only gentile film producer in Hollywood at one point. So did he get into the club despite being in showbiz?

    * A guest of the Kennedy’s reported that while talking to Rose he witnessed Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. walking in past his wife and up the stairs with a 16 year old female caddy. Sounds of sex followed, Rose acted as if it wasn’t happening

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Howard Hughs maybe wasn’t into golf

    Hughes was fanatically dedicated to golf as a younger man and was one of the better amateurs in L.A., but when a top pro told him that no matter how hard he practiced, he'd never win the U.S. Amateur, he quit golf cold turkey.

    Several scenes in "The Aviator" involve Hughes landing or crashing his plane at the LA CC.

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  98. Svigor says:

    Some select articles:

    “Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world’s entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes”

    I think it was right here that I realized I was reading the best comment ever.

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  99. Svigor says:

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    I can see the Israelis getting in on that action (Japs too, for that matter). I think they’re gonna try to build up their population density until Lebensraum/Eretz Israel becomes too imperative to ignore, then use every sneaky trick in the book to ethnically cleanse the choicer foreign real estate close by, all under IDF/PMC cover. But it may not go too well, so at some point they may be in the market, and Antarctica is one of the few places where you can make new real estate. And then there’s the African demographic nuclear bomb, which is going to be going off for the next 100 years or so. Israel’s not far removed. Europe will be saturated with SSAs at some point (here’s hoping the saturation point is driven way down by European politics), but the bomb will still be going off.

    Though Siberia is waiting, too, as are the world’s deserts (Saudi Arabia is sitting on a solar power gold mine, btw). Then there’s seasteading, which may be more viable than Antarctic colonies.

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  100. @Steve Sailer
    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.

    Perhaps the Buddha is famous today because (in reality) he was the hardest charger of them all in the Guru Industry, just as Harvey Weinstein produced more Oscar-nominated virtue-signaling movies than any other.

    Perhaps the Buddha is famous today because (in reality) he was the hardest charger of them all in the Guru Industry, just as Harvey Weinstein produced more Oscar-nominated virtue-signaling movies than any other.

    Yes, I have a feeling the Buddha was as sanctimonious as any liberal virtue signaler we see today. And probably just as mean in his personal life.

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  101. guest says:
    @bomag
    To make the point, five hundred people should barge into Caplan's classroom and excitedly brag about how much their education has improved just by walking across the border of GMU. Then follow him home and brag about how housing quality has increased for themselves just by walking through the border of his walls.

    The go-to is usually to propose free access to his wife. Caplan already has kids, why not let a Mexican take a crack at it?

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  102. guest says:
    @Chrisnonymous
    I like that theory. It's all been orchestrated. After Trump is impeached and removed, Rose McGowen will hold a press conference to say "Just kidding" and Weinstein will go back to making movies. Business as usual. Pass the tin foil...

    The above poster didn’t stipulate that the allegations are false. The Narrative is that with Weinstein it was an “everybody knows” thing for decades. So why has it come out now? Possibly to get Trump.

    Not very likely, but Harv doesn’t have to be innocent for it to be a conspiracy.

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  103. slumber_j says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome
    OT:
    The latest from Bryan Caplan at econolog.com, an immigration propaganda comic book.

    All Roads Lead to Open Borders: Slides

    allroads.pdf

    Quote from chapter 2:


    Imagine a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow. Eeking out a meager living on the tundra. Hankering to move to any fertile country that admits them.
    [photo of tractors making furrows in snow covered ground.]

     

    Yes, I am now imagining "a million people in Antarctica, farming the snow":

    It's the year 2050 and the desired billions of Third World immigrants have moved into the First World thereby transforming it into more Third World. The native inhabitants are now a minority and they feel as comfortable as Boers do now. Some eccentric millionaires have gotten together and built colonies in Antarctica for wealthier whites to escape to. These colonies consist of large geodesic domes with insulated glass, heated with solar and geothermal energy. Vast arrays of heated hydroponic gardens supply food. All First World amenities are available: some domes have malls, some have stadiums, there is even a domed Disneyland. In fact, they are the world's last and only region remaining with First World amenities. Maintaining heated domes in Antarctica is very expensive and only the wealthiest can afford to live there, so the per capita wealth is very high. Hydroponic gardens are also very expensive, yet also high yield, making them the world's most valuable and productive farmlands.

    Bryan Caplan has since evacuated from his home town as soon as too many brown immigrants arrived there and he decamped to his very own Antarctic domed homestead so he can live in a literal "bubble". He got a job teaching economics in a domed university with ivy creeping up the walls, growing under the shine of hydroponic grow lights. From there he publishes articles in his blog decrying Antarctica's restrictive immigration laws.

    Some select articles:

    "Billiard-dollar bills on the snow: triple world GDP by transplanting the world's entire population to Antarctic hydroponic ice-domes"

    "Massive gaps in Antarctic living standards are a major economic puzzle: Why don't people just move to Antarctica?"

    "Most people are vastly more productive in Antarctica than in Third Word regions like Northwest Europe and North America"

    "It is immoral for Antarticans to condemn the world's population to exile in their wretched temperate glacierless birth countries"

    "Trapping Mexican farm workers on primitive American farms starves them and Antarcticans"

    "Antarctic immigration restrictions imprison talented Muslims in some of the world's poorest countries, such as Germany, Sweden and Britain"

    ---------------------------------

    In fact, people are growing food in Antarctica right now using greenhouses and hydroponics:

    HYDROPONICS AT MC MURDO STATION, ANTARCTICA
    Visit to the McMurdo Greenhouse
    Video of the greenhouse at McMurdo Station, Antarctica

    EDEN ISS greenhouse will supply the German Neumayer III polar station with fresh fruit and vegetables

    The crew of the Chinese Great Wall Station can now exist without some of the supply flights from the mainland. Thanks to their own greenhouse

    Countries responsible are: USA, Germany and China. Who else would it be?

    Well done. Weirdly, as a young man I had two roommates at different times who had worked at South Pole Station–one of them twice and the other for a number of summers–and another friend of mine worked at McMurdo for a while. In satisfying conformity with your vision, they’re all white and well-educated.

    The one who spent the longest down there gave my wife and me a photograph of the Utilidor for a wedding present.

    http://www.southpolestation.com/trivia/90s/utilidor.html

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  104. guest says:
    @Francis G.
    Berkeley.

    She appeared to be in her mid-60s at the time. I call that late-middle-aged. What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?

    “What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?”

    65 is usually when people shift to “elderly,” given it’s the official retirement age. But I don’t have a problem saying anyone over 59 is past middle-age.

    Of course, I’m not middle-aged yet. It occurs to me that people often speak of middle-age starting at 45, but shouldn’t it be more like late-30s? Life expectancy is just under 80, so your life’s halfway point is likely near-40. A little later for women and earlier for men.

    Stretching middle-age from 40 to 65 seems overlong to me. The really big chunk should be the one between adolescence and middle-age, with the later categories getting shorter and shorter (like your bones).

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    • Replies: @dfordoom

    It occurs to me that people often speak of middle-age starting at 45, but shouldn’t it be more like late-30s? Life expectancy is just under 80, so your life’s halfway point is likely near-40. A little later for women and earlier for men.
     
    You're middle-aged when hot 23-year-old members of the opposite sex start getting creeped out if they think you're hitting on them. Which means men reach middle age somewhere between 45 and 70, and women reach middle age at around 35. Biological reality is a very unpleasant thing for women. That basically explains why feminists are so bitter.
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  105. slumber_j says:
    @Karl
    13 Citizen of a Silly Country > Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs

    There are actually close to zero of them in the USA.

    There's lots of them that don't advertise openly for "diverse" new members - but then again, neither does Local 20 of the Steamfitters union or Local 1607 0f the Millwright's union

    Do you actually want to daven with the Satmars? Just say the word, i'll set you up with a recommendation. They won't inspect your circumcision.

    13 Citizen of a Silly Country > Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs

    There are actually close to zero of them in the USA.

    Excuse me?

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    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    I think what Karl is saying is that now, most historically Jewish clubs have a few Gentile members.
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  106. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @middle aged vet . . .
    I agree with fish. A really good writer named John O'Hara basically made millions of dollars in the 40s and 50s writing stories which often contained long passages about Catholic resentments of WASPs ('The Golden Idol', about the Porcellian Club at Harvard, was the most famous, although the word 'Catholic' does not appear ... the story is written as if the narrator had been excluded from the Porcellian for other reasons). He was of Irish descent, born in Pennsylvania. The Godfather franchise (more the lousy novels than the Jungian movies) contain many lines of dialogue from self-pitying Italians, angry that the United States was not happy to have experienced as much Italian and Sicilian immigration as it did. And, to shift to golf - I was lucky enough (growing up on Long Island) to play on several golf courses that PG Wodehouse, the greatest golf writer in history, also played on (I think - I assume that the courses I played on in the 1970s, all within a half hour drive from his house, were courses he would have played on in his relatively youthful 1950s. Maybe I am wrong) . (well, I did not play on the legendary Southampton one, but I did play - badly, but who cares now - on every other good one within 40 miles of the Wodehouse home in Remsenberg). I looked at all the pictures on the link to the LA Country Club - that is one impressive course. Still, I prefer the Long Island golf courses, with their better relationship to the ocean breezes, and their more vintage trees, and their more naturally watered grass.

    O’Hara, huh? That’s the Irish…

    Their grievance is first with the English and second with the Orangemen. Given their history it’s comparable to Greek or other Oriental Christian resentment of Turks. Italians really don’t give a damn; Mario Puzo was a good plotter but I think he spent too much time around Jews. Still, I didn’t see any resentment of WASPs, or even the use of the term. Kay was after all the most sympathetic character in the book and her parents were great in the one scene they had. (Novels? I only read one…)

    What about German Catholics? How come everybody always ignores the Germans?

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    • Replies: @middle aged vet . . .
    O'Hara was a really good writer, the ethnic resentment is just one small aspect of his writing (the guy was so bitter, though, that he actually had it put on his gravestone that he described the world better than anyone else of his generation ... this was on his gravestone! = makes Sarah Silverman look as humble as Olive Oil ....) I have to say I have only scanned the Godfather books, the first Puzo one, which is sort of based on "Under the Medlar Tree" (by Verga, one of those 19th century geniuses one keeps meaning to get around to reading) may have been better than I described it.
    , @guest
    At least in the Godfather the central characters are Eye-talians, so you could deduce anti-WASPishness by implication, if nothing else. I mean, if you were dead-set on doing so.

    O'Hara's novels, on the other hand, are about WASPs front and center. And they're not about what horrible human beings they are, though the faults are shown. You're on their side, usually. I grew to dislike the female protagonist of A Rage to Live, for one, but her husband and son were very touching. All WASPs.

    Other ethnicities don't come off better in his novels. The Irish politician in Ten North Frederick, for instance, is a conman.
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  107. Svigor says:

    Gotta live the libertarians that suck off the gov’t teat. Way to set the example guys!

    Implies the libertarian bench is really thin. Just optics alone should put libertarians off Caplan, otherwise. But I get the impression they don’t.

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  108. EdwardM says:
    @scrivener3
    That's interesting that lawyers are considered high status in LA. I sort of view then as not very rich because you cannot sell more hours than there are, and not very influential.

    The professional services business model is that higher-up people leverage lower-level people. Even if a partner is billing $1,000 per hour, the maximum he could bill is around $2.5M per year, meaning a net of maybe $1.5M-$2M at the extreme.

    But he has a team of junior- and mid-level people billing at $400 an hour who are not earning $600K-$800K per year. The average profits per partner at a white-shoe firm can be $3M+, meaning that some minority can make a good deal more than that.

    It’s true that one can’t attain a nine-figure net worth by law firm earnings alone under normal circumstances, but one isn’t limited by the cap of 168 hours per week of one’s own billable time.

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  109. @Steve Sailer
    "Did LACC ever keep out Catholics?"

    I've never seen anything one way or another on this question. Catholics don't have quite as long memories for grievances.

    What about Lepanto and the English Reformation?

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  110. @middle aged vet . . .
    I agree with fish. A really good writer named John O'Hara basically made millions of dollars in the 40s and 50s writing stories which often contained long passages about Catholic resentments of WASPs ('The Golden Idol', about the Porcellian Club at Harvard, was the most famous, although the word 'Catholic' does not appear ... the story is written as if the narrator had been excluded from the Porcellian for other reasons). He was of Irish descent, born in Pennsylvania. The Godfather franchise (more the lousy novels than the Jungian movies) contain many lines of dialogue from self-pitying Italians, angry that the United States was not happy to have experienced as much Italian and Sicilian immigration as it did. And, to shift to golf - I was lucky enough (growing up on Long Island) to play on several golf courses that PG Wodehouse, the greatest golf writer in history, also played on (I think - I assume that the courses I played on in the 1970s, all within a half hour drive from his house, were courses he would have played on in his relatively youthful 1950s. Maybe I am wrong) . (well, I did not play on the legendary Southampton one, but I did play - badly, but who cares now - on every other good one within 40 miles of the Wodehouse home in Remsenberg). I looked at all the pictures on the link to the LA Country Club - that is one impressive course. Still, I prefer the Long Island golf courses, with their better relationship to the ocean breezes, and their more vintage trees, and their more naturally watered grass.

    Also Fitzgerald, who has Nick tell newly-posh bootlegger Gatsby he’s “worth the whole lot of” shallow old-money hypocrites like the Buchanans.

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    • Replies: @middle aged vet . . .
    that was a good scene in a good novel
    , @guest
    I don't know if the Buchanans were supposed to stand in for an entire class. After all, though a Midwesterner (like Fitzgerald), the narrator is cousin to Daisy, a Yalie, and works on Wall Street. He's not a cad like Tom or an airhead like Daisy.

    In any case, I assume Gatsby is supposed to be ethnically German, so maybe it's the Micks and Krauts together against the WASPs. But other ethnicities come off worse than the Buchanans. At least they're not gangsters like Wolfsheim.

    Also, Gatsby comes off worse than people may remember, despite the tragedy and sympathy. He tried to get Nick to go in on a financial scheme with him, and if I recall correctly luckily Nick refuses his advice and other people go down for it. That's what Nick could expect in return for being his friend. And turns out all Gatsby's other would-be friends learned the lesson, because no one comes to his funeral.

    Part of the tragedy is that Tom is right when he calls Gatsby out as a no-account fraud in the hotel scene. If Daisy had gone with him instead of her husband, Gatsby probably would've ended up dead or in jail. He was expendable, being a mere frontman for criminals like Wolfsheim, who required go-betweens to deal with more respectable WASP-types.

    Now, Tom may have been a cad and he tipped off Gatsby's murderer, but the idea that Gatsby is worth the lot of Toms is a bit of romantic fluffery. Okay, maybe in the right circumstances Gatsby could've been something great, and with all the advantages Tom is just a selfish boor. But Gatsby didn't have to be a fraud. He could've worked harder.

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  111. @Anonymous

    And how did a middle aged woman have a 48 year old son?
     
    Maybe the father’s Roy Moore?

    Good one.

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  112. @dfordoom

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning
     
    It's actually a pretty smart strategy for maintaining group identity. Especially when religion will no longer serve that purpose. Jews in the US would no longer exist as a distinctive group without that common bond of shared oppression. The fact that it's imaginary oppression doesn't matter. It still works.

    Other ethnic groups have done the same thing, but never anywhere near as effectively. I used to know a Scottish-Australian who was still really really angry about Culloden. I'm not sure if he realised that the Duke of Cumberland was dead now.

    Assimilation is cultural genocide and if you want to avoid that fate you need something emotionally powerful enough to make assimilation impossible.

    Even sub-cultures do it a certain extent. The lesbian sub-culture sustained itself for so long with fantasies of being oppressed. The fact that no-one has ever cared enough about lesbians to bother oppressing them made no difference. Without that fantasy they would have had no identity at all.
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  113. @Gogo

    It’s called “hitting the wall”. She’s actually not too bad for a 46-year-old woman. But she’s a “comedian”, which means she probably stays out late every night smoking and drinking, which means she will age faster than she otherwise would have. It’s her character and personality I find repugnant, not her looks.
     
    Sarah isn’t a big party gal, but she is a self-described, long-term pot afficiando, and it seems to have helped her maintain the "loose-cannon" aspect of her personality that her peer's are well aware of. It’s probably why she’s still unmarried.

    She boasted that the head writers of her previous show, which included Dan Harmon, were hired in part because they were also her drug dealers.

    Ultimately, she’s not very bright, and has a knack for self-destructing. Men tend to come to her service when she gets in over her head, but at her age, she’ll soon be on her own, and she’ll self-destruct like Kathy Griffin. Bill Maher, and the like, won’t be around to help her...

    https://youtu.be/VsNoO8xMs04

    She worked well enough in “School of Rock” because:
    a) she was just attractive enough that you could see why Jack Black’s nebbishy roommate would put up with her horrible personality;
    b) she wasn’t so attractive that you wondered how Jack Black’s nebbishy roommate could get a chick like that in the first place;
    c) her personality was horrible enough that you could see why the nebbishy roommate would dump her by the end of the movie, even if she was the only physical relationship he had ever had and ever might have.

    Sarah Silverman: for men who figure they’re gonna HAVE to settle.

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  114. @slumber_j

    13 Citizen of a Silly Country > Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs

    There are actually close to zero of them in the USA.
     
    Excuse me?

    I think what Karl is saying is that now, most historically Jewish clubs have a few Gentile members.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Hillcrest started letting in gentiles about 30 to 40 years after its founding in 1922, such as Danny Thomas and Walter O'Malley.
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  115. dearieme says:

    A brother of one of my ancestors introduced golf to one of the counties of Iowa.

    Another long-ago figure in my family was a Hollywood actor.

    So there’s a golf-and-Hollywood tale for Mr iSteve.

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  116. Jack D says:
    @scrivener3
    That's interesting that lawyers are considered high status in LA. I sort of view then as not very rich because you cannot sell more hours than there are, and not very influential.

    because you cannot sell more hours than there are,

    Old lawyer joke: Lawyer dies and goes to heaven (this is a joke, remember). He is personally greeted at the Pearly Gates by St. Peter and a large band of angels playing harps and singing hosannas. The lawyer says, “St. Peter it’s nice that you give me this big greeting, but what did I do in life to deserve this? I was modestly successful but I really wasn’t a big deal.” And St. Peter replies, “My son, it is not often that we get a 120 year old man up here. The last one was Moses.” And the lawyer says, “St. Peter, you must have the wrong man. I was only 78 when I passed away.” And St. Peter replies, “No, no – you must have been 120 – we have your time sheets.”

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  117. Jack D says:
    @Flip
    Did LACC ever keep out Catholics? I assume they must have a few Jewish members now.

    I think it depends on what sort of Catholics. Genteel F. Scott Fitzgerald/Francis Scott Key type Catholics might have squeaked in. Joe Rizzoli, the garbage hauling contractor – not a chance.

    Article about country clubs and discrimination from 1962:

    https://www.si.com/vault/1962/03/05/620671/status-seeking-crazy-hats-and-discrimination

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  118. Flip says:
    @scrivener3
    That's interesting that lawyers are considered high status in LA. I sort of view then as not very rich because you cannot sell more hours than there are, and not very influential.

    You sell the hours of the associates that you work to death.

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  119. J1234 says:

    I thought Sarah Silverman’s piece was pretty funny. Yeah, she’s a tramp and a cultural and psychological train wreck, but it was still funny. A lot of it seemed to be a satire of the anti-antisemitism industry.

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  120. @Francis G.
    People will obsess over petty slights forever. Back when I was a college student, I went to the dentist for a check up. The bored, late-middle-aged hygienist made chit-chat and asked what I had been doing lately. As soon as I mentioned what uni I was attending, she grew very tense and angry. Her son, it turned out, had been rejected from that same uni 30 years earlier. It didn't matter that he had graduated with honors from a slightly less "prestigious" uni and gone on to have a very successful career as a physicist working for Lawrence Livermore Lab for the last 20 years. All she could talk about for the next half hour was how unfair it was that a piece of shit like me had been accepted while her precious son had been rejected by the same, vastly overrated uni. It was just pitiful how obsessed she was over something so meaningless. The fact that her son was far more successful than I was (and was making three or four times the money I was making) didn't begin to make up for the unforgivable insult of her boy being deemed unacceptable, eons ago, by a school that is rapidly becoming a national (if not a worldwide) joke.

    I am convinced that humans have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life, no matter how objectively and comparatively good they might actually have it.

    Still, some racial/ethnic groups seem much more prone to this tendency than others. I have noticed, for instance, that Jews and Indians (dots, not feathers) never stop whining about long-ago and rather trivial grievances.

    I am convinced that humans have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life…

    I am convinced that women have been naturally selected to be perpetually dissatisfied with their lot in life…

    There. I fixed that for you.

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  121. @Hodag
    Nice to see the treehouse get a mention.

    Most golf courses get an open space or agricultural tax break. LACC is sitting on about 2 billion worth of land.

    Hodag, The Westwood Country Club here in WNY was the de facto “Jewish” golf course. The membership dwindled and the club was put up for sale. The course is now totally surrounded by chain link fence with prominent signage declaring the site to be a “Hazardous Brown Field.” I hear that years of pesticide use and fertilizers render old golf courses unusable unless capped. So maybe LACC is not worth so much.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Joe,

    LA is not Western NY. The LACC sits right next to Beverly Hills, some of the most expensive real estate in America - single family houses on tiny lots go for $5 million, $10 million, the sky is the limit.Wilshire Blvd just outside the club is lined with high rise luxury hotels and condo towers. Even if they had to dig the place down to bedrock it would pay. Whoever said that the real estate under the course is worth a billion dollars was not far off. The only thing that would limit its value is that there is no way that they are ever going to get zoning approval to fully develop the lot - the neighbors are going to demand that all or most of it be made into a park or something.
    , @Jack D
    I wonder if Jewish clubs are dwindling more than non-Jewish ones because secular Jews forgot to have children? My 95 year old MIL gave up her membership in a ( mostly Jewish though not founded as a Jewish club) golf club which sits inside the city limits of Philadelphia. (Outside the gates is still a decent middle class area but it's all black.) The average member is somewhere between 75 and dead. Whenever I visited it was like visiting a nursing home. They even have the all black staff you see in nursing homes, those these folks were less surly. I really can't imagine that the place will be around in 10 years unless they can somehow reinvent themselves.
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  122. Marty says:
    @AndrewR
    How on earth is that obvious?

    No other school thought of as “prestigious,” recently in the news for conduct destructive of its reputation, and known for physics or math PhD’s who might get hired at LLL, came to mind. Has Caltech been doing something to destroy its rep that I missed?

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    What about Stanford? I am honestly asking here. When I think of schools West of the Mississippi that are the sort of schools people are annoyed not to get into, all I can think of are Berkeley and Stanford (and if one is Mormon, BYU in Salt Lake). Nobody who thinks they can get into Caltech really minds if they don't ,that sort of person always has an alternative.
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  123. Big Bill says:
    @dfordoom

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning
     
    It's actually a pretty smart strategy for maintaining group identity. Especially when religion will no longer serve that purpose. Jews in the US would no longer exist as a distinctive group without that common bond of shared oppression. The fact that it's imaginary oppression doesn't matter. It still works.

    Other ethnic groups have done the same thing, but never anywhere near as effectively. I used to know a Scottish-Australian who was still really really angry about Culloden. I'm not sure if he realised that the Duke of Cumberland was dead now.

    Assimilation is cultural genocide and if you want to avoid that fate you need something emotionally powerful enough to make assimilation impossible.

    Even sub-cultures do it a certain extent. The lesbian sub-culture sustained itself for so long with fantasies of being oppressed. The fact that no-one has ever cared enough about lesbians to bother oppressing them made no difference. Without that fantasy they would have had no identity at all.

    It is helpful if you convert your grudge into the seasonal liturgy of your ethnic group. Good Friday for Christians and Ashura for the Shia, for example. The Jews have a more generic warning (I forget the holiday) and recite an annual prayer that “every year they will come to get us” (can’t remember the exact words).

    The Holocaust is a recent addition to Jewish religious liturgy, too. “Yom ha’Shoah” was added to the Jewish liturgical calendar in 1953 in Israel and has spread all over the Jewish world. It has been so successful that Israel lobbied for a gentile holocaust remembrance day. This was added to the UN’s “liturgical calendar” (so to speak) in 2005 as “International Holocaust Memorial Day” (27 January).

    Three points. First, you must “never forget”. Second, you must embed your beef into your own ethnoreligious liturgy. Third, (if you want to be really successful), you have to embed your beef into other cultures/ethnies as well.

    But the most important of these is never ever forget.

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  124. Jack D says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Hodag, The Westwood Country Club here in WNY was the de facto "Jewish" golf course. The membership dwindled and the club was put up for sale. The course is now totally surrounded by chain link fence with prominent signage declaring the site to be a "Hazardous Brown Field." I hear that years of pesticide use and fertilizers render old golf courses unusable unless capped. So maybe LACC is not worth so much.

    Joe,

    LA is not Western NY. The LACC sits right next to Beverly Hills, some of the most expensive real estate in America – single family houses on tiny lots go for $5 million, $10 million, the sky is the limit.Wilshire Blvd just outside the club is lined with high rise luxury hotels and condo towers. Even if they had to dig the place down to bedrock it would pay. Whoever said that the real estate under the course is worth a billion dollars was not far off. The only thing that would limit its value is that there is no way that they are ever going to get zoning approval to fully develop the lot – the neighbors are going to demand that all or most of it be made into a park or something.

    Read More
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  125. Jack D says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Hodag, The Westwood Country Club here in WNY was the de facto "Jewish" golf course. The membership dwindled and the club was put up for sale. The course is now totally surrounded by chain link fence with prominent signage declaring the site to be a "Hazardous Brown Field." I hear that years of pesticide use and fertilizers render old golf courses unusable unless capped. So maybe LACC is not worth so much.

    I wonder if Jewish clubs are dwindling more than non-Jewish ones because secular Jews forgot to have children? My 95 year old MIL gave up her membership in a ( mostly Jewish though not founded as a Jewish club) golf club which sits inside the city limits of Philadelphia. (Outside the gates is still a decent middle class area but it’s all black.) The average member is somewhere between 75 and dead. Whenever I visited it was like visiting a nursing home. They even have the all black staff you see in nursing homes, those these folks were less surly. I really can’t imagine that the place will be around in 10 years unless they can somehow reinvent themselves.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Jack, love the "...between 75 and dead." Thanks for both replies.
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  126. @Steve Sailer
    "Did LACC ever keep out Catholics?"

    I've never seen anything one way or another on this question. Catholics don't have quite as long memories for grievances.

    The LA Country Club has had Catholic members since at least the 1930s.

    My friends (I’ve mentioned them before here) who live in Holmby Hills in the house they built for themselves at the end of the ’20s, have been members since then. The present head of the family, a Loyola High grad like so many of the old Catholic elite, is the third generation of his family to enjoy membership. So Catholic is he that he has an Hispanic name, which matters not a jot.

    He hasn’t a drop of Irish blood, but another, even older LA Catholic family with membership in the club, has quite a bit. My father and his brothers got to know them intimately well when they were all at Loyola together in the 30′s. They inherited a largish Spanish land grant smack dab in the middle of Beverly Hills – and own it still. They too have been members for generations.

    So lacking in anti-Catholic bias is the club that it actually admits Catholic priests – when the head of the second family mentioned above took me to lunch there some thirty years ago, he was quickly surrounded by four or five of them (none in clerical dress I might add), all anxious to bask in his reflected glory as perhaps the richest old money Catholic in town.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Crichton wrote in State of Fear that Holmby Hills was the fanciest part of Beverly Hills, but the FT's real estate section said recently that Beverly Hills was now only the 6th most expensive zip code in Los Angeles. Plots too small for the newest mega mansions, apparently.
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  127. @Francis G.
    Berkeley.

    She appeared to be in her mid-60s at the time. I call that late-middle-aged. What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?

    I suspected you were talking about Berkeley.
    Laughingstock for those who weren’t there; something of a tragedy for those like me who lived through it.

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  128. Sunbeam says:
    @william munny
    Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados.

    “Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados.”

    What does that mean? Avocado, whether fruit or vegetable, is nothing I have much experience with.

    If he had used watermelons or cantaloupes, I could work with that. Got nothin’ on avocados though.

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    • Replies: @william munny
    They turn brown and nasty very quickly once they are exposed to oxygen.
    , @Anonymous

    “Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados.”

    What does that mean? Avocado, whether fruit or vegetable, is nothing I have much experience with.

    If he had used watermelons or cantaloupes, I could work with that. Got nothin’ on avocados though.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3nEYV1XEt8
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  129. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @dfordoom

    I realize that it’s cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning
     
    It's actually a pretty smart strategy for maintaining group identity. Especially when religion will no longer serve that purpose. Jews in the US would no longer exist as a distinctive group without that common bond of shared oppression. The fact that it's imaginary oppression doesn't matter. It still works.

    Other ethnic groups have done the same thing, but never anywhere near as effectively. I used to know a Scottish-Australian who was still really really angry about Culloden. I'm not sure if he realised that the Duke of Cumberland was dead now.

    Assimilation is cultural genocide and if you want to avoid that fate you need something emotionally powerful enough to make assimilation impossible.

    Even sub-cultures do it a certain extent. The lesbian sub-culture sustained itself for so long with fantasies of being oppressed. The fact that no-one has ever cared enough about lesbians to bother oppressing them made no difference. Without that fantasy they would have had no identity at all.

    The gay Showtime series Queer As Folk (an American remake of a British show) included a gay bashing, the bombing of a gay club, and a politician sponsoring a law that would have effectively banned homosexuality. There was also a gay couple whose adopted teen hustler son decides to date a girl, to his adoptive dads’ consternation.

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    • Replies: @dfordoom

    The gay Showtime series Queer As Folk (an American remake of a British show) included a gay bashing, the bombing of a gay club, and a politician sponsoring a law that would have effectively banned homosexuality.
     
    The similarities between the homosexual sub-culture and Jews are striking. They're both terrified of being assimilated. Jews are terrified that younger Jews will lose their sense of identity. Homosexuals are terrified that other homosexuals may be tempted to turn straight. This is an obsessive fear among lesbians, since so many of them do turn straight.

    The appalling injustice of homosexuals not being allowed to marry, even though only about 0.1% of them have ever had the slightest interest in doing so, is their equivalent of Jews not being allowed to join country clubs. The strategy is identical. Manufacture a grievance and then milk it for all it's worth. Never ever stop complaining about it. Make up horror stories about the victims of this oppression being driven to madness and suicide.

    It's no coincidence that Jews and homosexuals are both spectacularly successful groups with immense political power. It's a winning strategy.
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  130. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Old Palo Altan
    The LA Country Club has had Catholic members since at least the 1930s.

    My friends (I've mentioned them before here) who live in Holmby Hills in the house they built for themselves at the end of the '20s, have been members since then. The present head of the family, a Loyola High grad like so many of the old Catholic elite, is the third generation of his family to enjoy membership. So Catholic is he that he has an Hispanic name, which matters not a jot.

    He hasn't a drop of Irish blood, but another, even older LA Catholic family with membership in the club, has quite a bit. My father and his brothers got to know them intimately well when they were all at Loyola together in the 30's. They inherited a largish Spanish land grant smack dab in the middle of Beverly Hills - and own it still. They too have been members for generations.

    So lacking in anti-Catholic bias is the club that it actually admits Catholic priests - when the head of the second family mentioned above took me to lunch there some thirty years ago, he was quickly surrounded by four or five of them (none in clerical dress I might add), all anxious to bask in his reflected glory as perhaps the richest old money Catholic in town.

    Crichton wrote in State of Fear that Holmby Hills was the fanciest part of Beverly Hills, but the FT’s real estate section said recently that Beverly Hills was now only the 6th most expensive zip code in Los Angeles. Plots too small for the newest mega mansions, apparently.

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    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Well, in that case Crichton should fire his researcher - Holmby Hills isn't even in Beverly Hills, much less its "fanciest part".
    Bel Air has always been more desirable than Beverly Hills: larger lots, magnificent views. My aunt's place is on four acres and has a view from the terrace which stretches from Santa Monica and the Pacific to downtown Los Angeles.
    Like Holmby it used to be off limits to the Hollywood crowd, but those days are long gone.
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  131. @PV van der Byl
    I think what Karl is saying is that now, most historically Jewish clubs have a few Gentile members.

    Hillcrest started letting in gentiles about 30 to 40 years after its founding in 1922, such as Danny Thomas and Walter O’Malley.

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    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    Famously, Jack Benny objected to Danny Thomas saying, "if we are now going to admit Gentiles, we should be admitting Gentiles who, at least, look like Gentiles!"
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  132. @Sean
    There were some seriously rich Gentiles who bought studios (to hump actresses).Howard Hughs maybe wasn't into golf , but I believe Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. was * and was the only gentile film producer in Hollywood at one point. So did he get into the club despite being in showbiz?

    * A guest of the Kennedy's reported that while talking to Rose he witnessed Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. walking in past his wife and up the stairs with a 16 year old female caddy. Sounds of sex followed, Rose acted as if it wasn't happening

    Howard Hughs maybe wasn’t into golf

    Hughes was fanatically dedicated to golf as a younger man and was one of the better amateurs in L.A., but when a top pro told him that no matter how hard he practiced, he’d never win the U.S. Amateur, he quit golf cold turkey.

    Several scenes in “The Aviator” involve Hughes landing or crashing his plane at the LA CC.

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    • Replies: @guest
    "Several scenes in 'The Aviator' involve Hughes landing or crashing his plane at the LA CC."

    So he could run into Katharine Hepburn, who was the "athletic type." (Meaning slut, not lesbian.)
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  133. Mulegino1 says:

    If the most strident National Socialist ever needed a poster girl to rival Le Happy Merchant, Silverman would be the prototype.

    Why is it that the members of the tribe who rise to prominence must be nasty and revolting? I can see Stanley Kubrick, Isaac Asimov, Yehudi Menuhin (or especially his son Gerhard), Israel Shamir, or Brother Nathaniel as ideal tribal icons, but seriously – this evil – ugly and nasty – hyena? She is not attractive. She is not pleasant. She is not sympathetic at all. She is Jewry’s version of Hillary.

    Seriously, what is it with Jewry’s obsession with elevating the most vile, corrupt and repulsive of its elements to prominence?

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  134. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Francis G.
    Attend a highland games event in North America and see how everyone reacts to Clan Campbell. Three centuries ago is still yesterday. The Glencoe Massacre will never be forgiven.

    Three centuries ago is still yesterday. The Glencoe Massacre will never be forgiven.

    My uncle was a Scottish-Australian. In fact his Scottish ancestry was pretty distant. But if you mentioned Glencoe to him…

    Ethnic/cultural groups and sub-cultures that hold grudges and cherish the memories of ancient wrongs actually seem to be pretty successful. Or at least it seems to be a successful strategy for coping with being a minority in another country. The Irish did pretty well in the US (and in Australia) as long as they kept the flame of anti-English hatred burning. Now that that has faded the Irish have lost their identity and they’re facing extinction as a distinctive ethnic/cultural group.

    The Scots used to be very successful in Australia. Now that their hatred of the Sassenachs has faded they’ve been largely assimilated into extinction.

    Assimilation is death, and hatred (or at least a powerful sense of grievance) is the best defence.

    The trouble with Anglos is that we have no historical memory at all, and no identity. If the English had continued to hate the French as their hereditary enemies they would never have entered an alliance with them in the early 20th century and the tragedy of the First World War might have been avoided. And if the English had kept hating the French they would never have joined the EU.

    Hate works.

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    • Agree: BB753
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  135. dfordoom says: • Website
    @guest
    "What do you consider the cut-off for middle-aged?"

    65 is usually when people shift to "elderly," given it's the official retirement age. But I don't have a problem saying anyone over 59 is past middle-age.

    Of course, I'm not middle-aged yet. It occurs to me that people often speak of middle-age starting at 45, but shouldn't it be more like late-30s? Life expectancy is just under 80, so your life's halfway point is likely near-40. A little later for women and earlier for men.

    Stretching middle-age from 40 to 65 seems overlong to me. The really big chunk should be the one between adolescence and middle-age, with the later categories getting shorter and shorter (like your bones).

    It occurs to me that people often speak of middle-age starting at 45, but shouldn’t it be more like late-30s? Life expectancy is just under 80, so your life’s halfway point is likely near-40. A little later for women and earlier for men.

    You’re middle-aged when hot 23-year-old members of the opposite sex start getting creeped out if they think you’re hitting on them. Which means men reach middle age somewhere between 45 and 70, and women reach middle age at around 35. Biological reality is a very unpleasant thing for women. That basically explains why feminists are so bitter.

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  136. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dave Pinsen
    The gay Showtime series Queer As Folk (an American remake of a British show) included a gay bashing, the bombing of a gay club, and a politician sponsoring a law that would have effectively banned homosexuality. There was also a gay couple whose adopted teen hustler son decides to date a girl, to his adoptive dads' consternation.

    The gay Showtime series Queer As Folk (an American remake of a British show) included a gay bashing, the bombing of a gay club, and a politician sponsoring a law that would have effectively banned homosexuality.

    The similarities between the homosexual sub-culture and Jews are striking. They’re both terrified of being assimilated. Jews are terrified that younger Jews will lose their sense of identity. Homosexuals are terrified that other homosexuals may be tempted to turn straight. This is an obsessive fear among lesbians, since so many of them do turn straight.

    The appalling injustice of homosexuals not being allowed to marry, even though only about 0.1% of them have ever had the slightest interest in doing so, is their equivalent of Jews not being allowed to join country clubs. The strategy is identical. Manufacture a grievance and then milk it for all it’s worth. Never ever stop complaining about it. Make up horror stories about the victims of this oppression being driven to madness and suicide.

    It’s no coincidence that Jews and homosexuals are both spectacularly successful groups with immense political power. It’s a winning strategy.

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    • Replies: @guest
    "The similarities between the homosexual subculture and Jews are striking"

    That's why they teamed up and conquered Broadway!

    Which worked out for a while, until they started making stuff for themselves alone.
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  137. @Anon
    O'Hara, huh? That's the Irish...

    Their grievance is first with the English and second with the Orangemen. Given their history it's comparable to Greek or other Oriental Christian resentment of Turks. Italians really don't give a damn; Mario Puzo was a good plotter but I think he spent too much time around Jews. Still, I didn't see any resentment of WASPs, or even the use of the term. Kay was after all the most sympathetic character in the book and her parents were great in the one scene they had. (Novels? I only read one...)

    What about German Catholics? How come everybody always ignores the Germans?

    O’Hara was a really good writer, the ethnic resentment is just one small aspect of his writing (the guy was so bitter, though, that he actually had it put on his gravestone that he described the world better than anyone else of his generation … this was on his gravestone! = makes Sarah Silverman look as humble as Olive Oil ….) I have to say I have only scanned the Godfather books, the first Puzo one, which is sort of based on “Under the Medlar Tree” (by Verga, one of those 19th century geniuses one keeps meaning to get around to reading) may have been better than I described it.

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    • Replies: @guest
    "the ethnic resentment is just one small aspect of his writing"

    Indeed. As I said above, most of his novels are about WASPs, and though they're in the modern tell-all biography style, they're not works of ethnic grievance. They're quite sympathetic, I think. Not the sort of thing you'd expect a Jew to write of German culture, or black Americans of cracker culture.

    Someone must've really got the message out about O'Hara being a crabby, resentful Mick, because it's really not there in his more famous works. Was there an article in the Atlantic recently?

    Reputations can be terribly misleading. Though from every account I've read O'Hara was a striving, resentful bridge-burner.
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  138. @Rosamond Vincy
    Also Fitzgerald, who has Nick tell newly-posh bootlegger Gatsby he's "worth the whole lot of" shallow old-money hypocrites like the Buchanans.

    that was a good scene in a good novel

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  139. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Marty
    No other school thought of as "prestigious," recently in the news for conduct destructive of its reputation, and known for physics or math PhD's who might get hired at LLL, came to mind. Has Caltech been doing something to destroy its rep that I missed?

    What about Stanford? I am honestly asking here. When I think of schools West of the Mississippi that are the sort of schools people are annoyed not to get into, all I can think of are Berkeley and Stanford (and if one is Mormon, BYU in Salt Lake). Nobody who thinks they can get into Caltech really minds if they don’t ,that sort of person always has an alternative.

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    • Replies: @Marty
    Sure, but again, has Stanford been in the news self-destructing lately?
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  140. @Jack D
    I wonder if Jewish clubs are dwindling more than non-Jewish ones because secular Jews forgot to have children? My 95 year old MIL gave up her membership in a ( mostly Jewish though not founded as a Jewish club) golf club which sits inside the city limits of Philadelphia. (Outside the gates is still a decent middle class area but it's all black.) The average member is somewhere between 75 and dead. Whenever I visited it was like visiting a nursing home. They even have the all black staff you see in nursing homes, those these folks were less surly. I really can't imagine that the place will be around in 10 years unless they can somehow reinvent themselves.

    Jack, love the “…between 75 and dead.” Thanks for both replies.

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  141. Kooky says:

    Sarah Silverman’s own sister was one of Louis CK’s victims around a decade before. Silverman’s sister claimed that during a cross-country comedy tour, Louis CK masturbated in front of her at least 20 separate times. Louis has since admitted to this.

    Sarah makes no mention of it in her tearful monologue on her new show, nor why she remained his friend, and worked with him on many subsequent occasions, following the multiple incidents of sexually preying on her sister. Yet she claims what HE did was awful.

    Questions for Sarah… when does a glaring omission become a willful misrepresentation, and when does that turn into a bald-faced lie… for Jewish people? I’d like to understand the creative process of the negative Jewish stereotype. Is it like acting? You bring it out when pay is somehow involved? Or do you inhabit the role, 24/7? How do you manage your sister when she’s crying about repeated sexual abuse from another Jew? Do you encourage her to “take twenty for the team”?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    “To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”
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  142. @Kooky
    Sarah Silverman's own sister was one of Louis CK's victims around a decade before. Silverman's sister claimed that during a cross-country comedy tour, Louis CK masturbated in front of her at least 20 separate times. Louis has since admitted to this.

    Sarah makes no mention of it in her tearful monologue on her new show, nor why she remained his friend, and worked with him on many subsequent occasions, following the multiple incidents of sexually preying on her sister. Yet she claims what HE did was awful.

    Questions for Sarah... when does a glaring omission become a willful misrepresentation, and when does that turn into a bald-faced lie... for Jewish people? I’d like to understand the creative process of the negative Jewish stereotype. Is it like acting? You bring it out when pay is somehow involved? Or do you inhabit the role, 24/7? How do you manage your sister when she’s crying about repeated sexual abuse from another Jew? Do you encourage her to "take twenty for the team"?

    https://youtu.be/_WKFDqxiL80

    “To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

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  143. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it's Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?

    I realize that it's cliche, but it really does seem that Jews try to manufacture slights and discrimination that only happen to Jews and nobody else to keep the fire burning, but I certainly could be wrong and I'm fine if someone enlightens me.

    It just seems like a lot of work to be Jewish, but then I'm looking at it from a gentile perspective. I just can't hold a grudge like that. If non-blue blood whites were kept out of a blue blood-country club, we'd just start our own and move on. Yeah, maybe that first generation would be a little bit bitter, but it'd fade very quickly. (I mean, who cares. Create your own world that better suits you anyway.) But Jews seem to hold on to the silliest of grudges for generations. It's not like some LA WASP killed Silverman's uncle.

    Somebody help me. Jews have all kinds of Jew-only organizations and clubs, but when somebody does the same thing to them that they do to everyone else, it’s Holocaust-lite.

    What am I missing?

    Of course, you’re not missing anything. You are doing very basic observation and logic which is just bad think when it comes to the Jews.

    Post-holocaust the Jews have managed to construct a narrative and–pretty successfully–con the goyim into not thinking critically about Jews. So that people now–Jews included probably–are quite a bit less clear headed about the Jews than people of 100 years back.

    It’s really quite amazing that Jews have managed to sell a narrative of themselves as cosmopolitan and integrationist as if Jewish ideology was some sort of Martin Luther Kingesque “content of their character” thing and 18th century Jews were holding up “integration now!” placards only to be dosed by gentiles with firehoses.

    Jews were generally urban and money smart, but not cosmopolitan–rootless or otherwise–in the “open” sense, but rather super-tribalist. They practice an ethnic religion, with the Talmud full of 1001 practices specifically evolved to keep Jews separate from Gentiles and keep their little cult bolted down tight and their tribe tightly endogamous. Far from being integrationist they were world champion anti-integrationists.

    Rather it is Christianity that is open and integrationist. Christianity happily absorbed Europe’s tribes and converted them–with endogamy–into “one people” nations. This de-tribalization was a tremendous force for good, for progress, for building modernity, trust and prosperity. And the Jews were the notable resistant tribe–along with the late arriving Gypsies–who clung to their backward tribal identity.

    All this golfocaust nonsense just revolves around the actual core Jewish ideology which is essentially “ethnic solidarity for Jews is good; but Gentile society must be always and everywhere penetrable by Jews.”

    “Anti-Semitism” is the complaint that Gentiles are reacting to Jews, like Jews react to Gentiles. (I.e. treating them as outsiders.)

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  144. guest says:
    @Anonymous

    There is probably a good example of some never-satisfied ultra-ambitious person who has clawed his way to the top of the self-improvement field by preaching, via an exhausting schedule of media and personal appearances, that, you, personally should be satisfied with your lot in life and stop and smell the roses.
     
    Not Grant Cardone. He says you have to obsessed or you’ll be average. You need to wake up each day and say, “Who’s got my money?!” and then go get it. Cardone is a perfect example of how hard work is more important than smarts to get rich. Cardone was a terrible student and barely got his degree from McNeese State University after 5 years. Afterwards he floundered and did drugs. Then at 25 he found the way to rise above the crowd and get filthy rich (his only goal). Just work 10 times harder than everyone else (“The 10x Rule”). People naturally put the amount of work they deem necessary for the job so you overtake them all with 10x. He said friends, family, coworkers, and even management will tell you to ease up, don’t work so hard, but you have to stay strong and ignore all the advice and put in sick levels of action and work. It worked for him. Along with being a consummate huckster hustler. He started in car sales and now is worth 9 figures and owns thousands of luxury apartment rental properties in L.A., Miami, and elsewhere.

    Grant Cardone: The 10x Rule

    We know he wasn’t a great student, but does that mean he wasn’t smart?

    Guess what, stupid people usually aren’t smart enough to figure out that you have to consistently work hard to get ahead. And even if they manage to figure that much out, they’re not smart enough to maintain discipline.

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  145. guest says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Howard Hughs maybe wasn’t into golf

    Hughes was fanatically dedicated to golf as a younger man and was one of the better amateurs in L.A., but when a top pro told him that no matter how hard he practiced, he'd never win the U.S. Amateur, he quit golf cold turkey.

    Several scenes in "The Aviator" involve Hughes landing or crashing his plane at the LA CC.

    “Several scenes in ‘The Aviator’ involve Hughes landing or crashing his plane at the LA CC.”

    So he could run into Katharine Hepburn, who was the “athletic type.” (Meaning slut, not lesbian.)

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  146. guest says:
    @Steve Sailer
    There's a strange scene in Mad Men about some intra-Scottish feud involving Pete Campbell that supposedly is still going on in upper crust US circles among wealthy Scot-Americans.

    That was a reference to the Glencoe Massacre of 1692, which actually is a big deal in Anglo-Scottish history. 78 members of Clan McDonald were massacred or left to die by Clan Campbell, after having accepted the McDonalds’ hospitality. This was shortly after the Glorious Revolution and the first Jacobite uprising. The McDonalds were suspected of loyalty to James VII.

    Mad Men played it for laughs, having the feud come up out of nowhere and Pete shouting something ridiculous like, “the king ordered it!”

    I imagine someone on staff at some point looked up what significance the name “Campbell” has in Scottish history, or maybe they just ran across the Glencoe story and thought, “Hey, this’d be funny.”

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  147. guest says:
    @dfordoom

    The gay Showtime series Queer As Folk (an American remake of a British show) included a gay bashing, the bombing of a gay club, and a politician sponsoring a law that would have effectively banned homosexuality.
     
    The similarities between the homosexual sub-culture and Jews are striking. They're both terrified of being assimilated. Jews are terrified that younger Jews will lose their sense of identity. Homosexuals are terrified that other homosexuals may be tempted to turn straight. This is an obsessive fear among lesbians, since so many of them do turn straight.

    The appalling injustice of homosexuals not being allowed to marry, even though only about 0.1% of them have ever had the slightest interest in doing so, is their equivalent of Jews not being allowed to join country clubs. The strategy is identical. Manufacture a grievance and then milk it for all it's worth. Never ever stop complaining about it. Make up horror stories about the victims of this oppression being driven to madness and suicide.

    It's no coincidence that Jews and homosexuals are both spectacularly successful groups with immense political power. It's a winning strategy.

    “The similarities between the homosexual subculture and Jews are striking”

    That’s why they teamed up and conquered Broadway!

    Which worked out for a while, until they started making stuff for themselves alone.

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  148. guest says:
    @middle aged vet . . .
    I agree with fish. A really good writer named John O'Hara basically made millions of dollars in the 40s and 50s writing stories which often contained long passages about Catholic resentments of WASPs ('The Golden Idol', about the Porcellian Club at Harvard, was the most famous, although the word 'Catholic' does not appear ... the story is written as if the narrator had been excluded from the Porcellian for other reasons). He was of Irish descent, born in Pennsylvania. The Godfather franchise (more the lousy novels than the Jungian movies) contain many lines of dialogue from self-pitying Italians, angry that the United States was not happy to have experienced as much Italian and Sicilian immigration as it did. And, to shift to golf - I was lucky enough (growing up on Long Island) to play on several golf courses that PG Wodehouse, the greatest golf writer in history, also played on (I think - I assume that the courses I played on in the 1970s, all within a half hour drive from his house, were courses he would have played on in his relatively youthful 1950s. Maybe I am wrong) . (well, I did not play on the legendary Southampton one, but I did play - badly, but who cares now - on every other good one within 40 miles of the Wodehouse home in Remsenberg). I looked at all the pictures on the link to the LA Country Club - that is one impressive course. Still, I prefer the Long Island golf courses, with their better relationship to the ocean breezes, and their more vintage trees, and their more naturally watered grass.

    Most of O’Hara’s novels are about WASPs, and all of them are sympathetic, if not always flattering, portrayals. Check out the surnames of some of his protagonists:

    Appointment in Samara- English (need I say?)

    Butterfield 8- Ligett (Anglo-Saxon)

    Pal Joey- Evans (Welsh?)

    A Rage to Live- Caldwell (Anglo-Saxon)

    Ten North Frederick- Chapin (English I think)

    From the Terrace- Eaton (Anglo-Saxon)

    The only O’Hara novel with an Irish protagonist of which I’m aware is Malloy from Hope of Heaven.

    The short stories are another matter, and I’ve only read a smattering of them. But an awful big part of O’Hara’s reputation–and I’d bet almost his entire legacy for contemporary readers (short stories are often read anymore)–is literature about WASPs. As far as I recall, they’re not works of ethnic grievance.

    Certainly, they’re better than you’d expect Englishmen to do writing novel after novel about Irishmen.

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  149. guest says:
    @middle aged vet . . .
    O'Hara was a really good writer, the ethnic resentment is just one small aspect of his writing (the guy was so bitter, though, that he actually had it put on his gravestone that he described the world better than anyone else of his generation ... this was on his gravestone! = makes Sarah Silverman look as humble as Olive Oil ....) I have to say I have only scanned the Godfather books, the first Puzo one, which is sort of based on "Under the Medlar Tree" (by Verga, one of those 19th century geniuses one keeps meaning to get around to reading) may have been better than I described it.

    “the ethnic resentment is just one small aspect of his writing”

    Indeed. As I said above, most of his novels are about WASPs, and though they’re in the modern tell-all biography style, they’re not works of ethnic grievance. They’re quite sympathetic, I think. Not the sort of thing you’d expect a Jew to write of German culture, or black Americans of cracker culture.

    Someone must’ve really got the message out about O’Hara being a crabby, resentful Mick, because it’s really not there in his more famous works. Was there an article in the Atlantic recently?

    Reputations can be terribly misleading. Though from every account I’ve read O’Hara was a striving, resentful bridge-burner.

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  150. guest says:
    @Anon
    O'Hara, huh? That's the Irish...

    Their grievance is first with the English and second with the Orangemen. Given their history it's comparable to Greek or other Oriental Christian resentment of Turks. Italians really don't give a damn; Mario Puzo was a good plotter but I think he spent too much time around Jews. Still, I didn't see any resentment of WASPs, or even the use of the term. Kay was after all the most sympathetic character in the book and her parents were great in the one scene they had. (Novels? I only read one...)

    What about German Catholics? How come everybody always ignores the Germans?

    At least in the Godfather the central characters are Eye-talians, so you could deduce anti-WASPishness by implication, if nothing else. I mean, if you were dead-set on doing so.

    O’Hara’s novels, on the other hand, are about WASPs front and center. And they’re not about what horrible human beings they are, though the faults are shown. You’re on their side, usually. I grew to dislike the female protagonist of A Rage to Live, for one, but her husband and son were very touching. All WASPs.

    Other ethnicities don’t come off better in his novels. The Irish politician in Ten North Frederick, for instance, is a conman.

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  151. guest says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Also Fitzgerald, who has Nick tell newly-posh bootlegger Gatsby he's "worth the whole lot of" shallow old-money hypocrites like the Buchanans.

    I don’t know if the Buchanans were supposed to stand in for an entire class. After all, though a Midwesterner (like Fitzgerald), the narrator is cousin to Daisy, a Yalie, and works on Wall Street. He’s not a cad like Tom or an airhead like Daisy.

    In any case, I assume Gatsby is supposed to be ethnically German, so maybe it’s the Micks and Krauts together against the WASPs. But other ethnicities come off worse than the Buchanans. At least they’re not gangsters like Wolfsheim.

    Also, Gatsby comes off worse than people may remember, despite the tragedy and sympathy. He tried to get Nick to go in on a financial scheme with him, and if I recall correctly luckily Nick refuses his advice and other people go down for it. That’s what Nick could expect in return for being his friend. And turns out all Gatsby’s other would-be friends learned the lesson, because no one comes to his funeral.

    Part of the tragedy is that Tom is right when he calls Gatsby out as a no-account fraud in the hotel scene. If Daisy had gone with him instead of her husband, Gatsby probably would’ve ended up dead or in jail. He was expendable, being a mere frontman for criminals like Wolfsheim, who required go-betweens to deal with more respectable WASP-types.

    Now, Tom may have been a cad and he tipped off Gatsby’s murderer, but the idea that Gatsby is worth the lot of Toms is a bit of romantic fluffery. Okay, maybe in the right circumstances Gatsby could’ve been something great, and with all the advantages Tom is just a selfish boor. But Gatsby didn’t have to be a fraud. He could’ve worked harder.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Wilson worked hard, and where did it get him?
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  152. guest says:
    @middle aged vet . . .
    I agree with fish. A really good writer named John O'Hara basically made millions of dollars in the 40s and 50s writing stories which often contained long passages about Catholic resentments of WASPs ('The Golden Idol', about the Porcellian Club at Harvard, was the most famous, although the word 'Catholic' does not appear ... the story is written as if the narrator had been excluded from the Porcellian for other reasons). He was of Irish descent, born in Pennsylvania. The Godfather franchise (more the lousy novels than the Jungian movies) contain many lines of dialogue from self-pitying Italians, angry that the United States was not happy to have experienced as much Italian and Sicilian immigration as it did. And, to shift to golf - I was lucky enough (growing up on Long Island) to play on several golf courses that PG Wodehouse, the greatest golf writer in history, also played on (I think - I assume that the courses I played on in the 1970s, all within a half hour drive from his house, were courses he would have played on in his relatively youthful 1950s. Maybe I am wrong) . (well, I did not play on the legendary Southampton one, but I did play - badly, but who cares now - on every other good one within 40 miles of the Wodehouse home in Remsenberg). I looked at all the pictures on the link to the LA Country Club - that is one impressive course. Still, I prefer the Long Island golf courses, with their better relationship to the ocean breezes, and their more vintage trees, and their more naturally watered grass.

    I should stipulate that I’m speaking from a Current Year perspective. Back in the day, they very well may have looked upon O’Hara as an uppity paddie making money off denigrating his social betters. But compared to all the modernist trash attacking upright middle-class whites I’ve ever read, it’s mild. And I imagine someone with real ethnic grievances in that era would’ve been more acidic about it.

    I was reading the Late George Apley some time ago. It satirizes the Brahmin class in Boston, which may be why it won the Pulitzer. But by today’s standards, it’s as mild as unadorned oatmeal. You might not deduce from that the fact that the author, John P. Marquand, is Old Massachusetts. The surname is French, I imagine, but on his mother’s side he’s the great-nephew of New England feminist icon Margaret Fuller. He wasn’t a traitor to his people or anything, but was biting and ironic in the modern manner (or a subdued, popular, mainstream version of that manner).

    O’Hara was more modernistic, more down and dirty, but not fundamentally different, I don’t think. He wasn’t some ethnic- or class-warrior. Just a guy who got good material out of a group he probably resented socially, without going into Grievance Mode.

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  153. @guest
    I don't know if the Buchanans were supposed to stand in for an entire class. After all, though a Midwesterner (like Fitzgerald), the narrator is cousin to Daisy, a Yalie, and works on Wall Street. He's not a cad like Tom or an airhead like Daisy.

    In any case, I assume Gatsby is supposed to be ethnically German, so maybe it's the Micks and Krauts together against the WASPs. But other ethnicities come off worse than the Buchanans. At least they're not gangsters like Wolfsheim.

    Also, Gatsby comes off worse than people may remember, despite the tragedy and sympathy. He tried to get Nick to go in on a financial scheme with him, and if I recall correctly luckily Nick refuses his advice and other people go down for it. That's what Nick could expect in return for being his friend. And turns out all Gatsby's other would-be friends learned the lesson, because no one comes to his funeral.

    Part of the tragedy is that Tom is right when he calls Gatsby out as a no-account fraud in the hotel scene. If Daisy had gone with him instead of her husband, Gatsby probably would've ended up dead or in jail. He was expendable, being a mere frontman for criminals like Wolfsheim, who required go-betweens to deal with more respectable WASP-types.

    Now, Tom may have been a cad and he tipped off Gatsby's murderer, but the idea that Gatsby is worth the lot of Toms is a bit of romantic fluffery. Okay, maybe in the right circumstances Gatsby could've been something great, and with all the advantages Tom is just a selfish boor. But Gatsby didn't have to be a fraud. He could've worked harder.

    Wilson worked hard, and where did it get him?

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    • Replies: @guest
    Wilson is not Gatsby. There's nothing special about him. No indication he possessed the vision or discipline to be a great man. Which perhaps Gatsby possessed, if you take seriously the regimen for self-improvement from his youth Nick finds written down.

    Instead of following such a path, he takes easy ways out. First, joining that rich guy on his yacht. Then, allowing himself to be groomed for the bootlegging business. Finally, spending his fortune frivolously.

    The world is full of Wilsons, who thrive or wither, but neither squander nor fulfill potential. They're just living their lives. His would've been immensely improved if he had married better, or managed to control his wife. Or if Gatsby and Tom alike had been more responsible.

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  154. @Sunbeam
    "Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados."

    What does that mean? Avocado, whether fruit or vegetable, is nothing I have much experience with.

    If he had used watermelons or cantaloupes, I could work with that. Got nothin' on avocados though.

    They turn brown and nasty very quickly once they are exposed to oxygen.

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  155. guest – O’Hara’s short stories came out in a Library of America version earlier this year, but that, while a big event for people who read good American books, is probably not something more than 1 in 100,000 Americans cares much about.
    My take on his view of the world is from reading some of the very very good short stories and reading some of what Matthew Bruccoli (a younger contemporary of his) wrote about him. I don’t read the Atlantic or similar progressive and inaccurate publications, and if I did, I would double check what they say before repeating it. I also have more background knowledge than you would expect of Irish Roman Catholicism of O’Hara’s day. Of course O’Hara would keep ethnic resentments off front stage in the novels, maybe even completely off stage, he had to sell lots of them, and he had absolutely no desire to target his market to fellow Catholics, or to have a reviewer say that was what he was doing – plus, as you say, he was interested in lots of things besides resentment. The short stories were not subject to negative reviews in the same way; not saying that he cared less about writing good novels than writing good short stories, just saying I think that, whatever his intentions were, the short stories are a better gauge of what he cared most about in the world. Who knows, though? Unlike, say, Fitzgerald, O’Hara was, in addition to being a naturally gifted writer, someone with profound insights about lots of things, at least when fairly sober (which he was much more often than Fitzgerald in any given year). The better the writer, the easier it is for the writer to pretend to care about something not really cared about,and vice versa.

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    • Replies: @guest
    Again, I must admit I lack sufficient knowledge of O'Hara's biography. Aside from reading all his major novels and some novellas, I have read only a smattering of his stories. I don't know what his big sellers were, and would only be guessing at the--what shall I call it--orientation of his artistic intent. If he was like Fitzgerald, he wrote short stories to pay the bills and longer works for prestige. Given which, I shouldn't be surprised to find exploitation of popular prejudice and the airing of grievance more prevalent in the former form.

    Not many people read short stories anymore. O'Hara's reputation with the general public, such as it is, relies on the continuing popularity (or lackthereof) of his novels. Many of which are still in print, or at least Appointment in Samarra, Butterfield 8, and Ten North Frederick are. It's strange to me, the idea that you hear in association with his name so much about being a social climber, being resentful, and about his ethnic identity. Because that is more "between the lines" in the novels, if there at all.

    Which could be explained by him having been on his best behavior. But more than that, the novels almost go at it from the opposite direction. They're about the decline of the late WASP ruling class, if not from the perspective of WASPs then from a sympathetic detached perspective. Even From the Terrace, for instance, is about the outsized ambition and national success of an already wealthy provincial (he goes from being the son of a father who virtually owns a factory town to partner at a J.P. Morgan-type firm and important member of the wartime FDR administration) who ends in stagnation. But you don't want him to, and at least I ended up despising the lower orders in the book more than he.

    I suppose you could say O'Hara was wishing for their downfall. But like I said, they're sympathetic stories, not harsh or ironic. How can someone with a reputation for social climbing and ethnic grievance live on in literature almost entirely as a sort of apologist for the decaying WASP elite? Aside from being a great artist.

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  156. to guest at 6:18 am – generally, in the 1930s to 1950s, if you aligned with the Bohemians and the modernists, you were thought of as anti-establishment and, a fortiori, resentful. Some of the famous novelists of that time are still remembered (sometimes barely) – Steinbeck, Cozzens, Faulkner, Carson McCullers, Peter de Vries, Ross Lockridge, Hemingway, dos Passos – and only one or two of the ones that are remembered (in the list I just gave, and generally) were neither Bohemian nor modernist. And the one who was the least modernist and the least Bohemian, Cozzens, was still politically modernist (pro-choice back when contraceptive sales were illegal). So to get a grip on the world-view of that time in America is difficult, if one relies on the famous authors from back then who still sell a few books a year.

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    • Replies: @guest
    My custom is to talk of modernism in the sense of form, style, and technique. Politics, that's another matter. For some inexplicable reason, with the coming of modernism most artists either became leftists or kept politics to themselves.* A scant few were upfront about being reactionaries. Like Evelyn Waugh, who nevertheless availed himself of modernist techniques.

    My preference is for more old-fashioned technique, and I can read outright socialists like Orwell with pleasure. I don't attempt to ferret out authors' politics, but rather look at it from the perspective of which side they objectively support, as a Marxist might put it. Would forcing everyone to read James Gould Cozzens in the Current Year make the world more or less likely to conform to my wishes? I think the answer is more. Certainly he's miles ahead of others on inheritance and implied HBD, which of course makes him unbearably racists to even slightly sensitive modern progressives.**

    O'Hara's effective message with all those Decline of WASPdom novels was that it was a sad thing, and a Dismal Tide was to follow. With that I agree, even if I blame the WASPs for it, among others. (He may have as well.)

    De Vries I like, but find tending towards the wrong side on the Sex Question, as well as put off by his anti-theism in Blood of the Lamb. This coming from a non-believer.

    Steinbeck I can do without utterly.

    Dos Passos, if I'm not mistaken, exhibited different politics at different times in his career. But I've only read Mid-century, anyway, so I couldn't comment.

    Going about it this way is perhaps overly complicated and at best catch-as-catch-can. But the alternative is just to write most literature off politically after the 1890s or whenever. Leaving me mostly with propaganda. Which I don't want to do. So I tweeze out what I can.

    Saul Bellow, for instance, represents something I despise, namely neoconservatism. Which means in his early mode he's all existentialist and
    a pinko, then suddenly he's writing a roman-a-clef about Allan Bloom, of all people, and defending Israel. But we have common enemies, in the stagnant Midcentury Liberal Consensus and the New Left. And it's not like reading a David Frum column or a tweet by Bill Kristol.

    *Which has deluded leftists into thinking all artists are naturally leftist, unless diseased. This despite the fact that they reflexively hate Dead White Males who did nothing but support corrupt then-existing power structures, or however they'd put it.

    **About the abortion issue, I think I had a reaction to reading Men and Brethren exactly opposite to that of other people. They talk about it as hating the protagonist at first, then growing to like him as he's humanized. I loved him from page one, then started disliking him more and more as he was revealed to have no integrity. The abortion section was just part of that.

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  157. Marty says:
    @anonymous
    What about Stanford? I am honestly asking here. When I think of schools West of the Mississippi that are the sort of schools people are annoyed not to get into, all I can think of are Berkeley and Stanford (and if one is Mormon, BYU in Salt Lake). Nobody who thinks they can get into Caltech really minds if they don't ,that sort of person always has an alternative.

    Sure, but again, has Stanford been in the news self-destructing lately?

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    Upon rereading I see your point.
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  158. guest says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Wilson worked hard, and where did it get him?

    Wilson is not Gatsby. There’s nothing special about him. No indication he possessed the vision or discipline to be a great man. Which perhaps Gatsby possessed, if you take seriously the regimen for self-improvement from his youth Nick finds written down.

    Instead of following such a path, he takes easy ways out. First, joining that rich guy on his yacht. Then, allowing himself to be groomed for the bootlegging business. Finally, spending his fortune frivolously.

    The world is full of Wilsons, who thrive or wither, but neither squander nor fulfill potential. They’re just living their lives. His would’ve been immensely improved if he had married better, or managed to control his wife. Or if Gatsby and Tom alike had been more responsible.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    The rich man with the yacht--is that in the book, or just the Di Caprio movie?--is straight out of Horatio Alger. There is always a kindly millionaire who notices and rewards boys with initiative. (Of course, Alger's real motive for wanting boys to hope for the notice of rich men was quite another thing.)

    Nick may be from an old family, but he is nowhere near as rich as either the Buchanans or Gatsby. It's also implied that Tom Buchanan's money comes from Robber Barons who acquired it only slightly less recently and not at all less ruthlessly than Gatsby.

    Tom and Daisy are much worse than "a cad" and "an airhead." The both sexually use people born into the underclass, Myrtle Wilson and Gatsby, give them false hope that they love them enough to stay with them, and change their approach to life not one whit after they have caused their deaths. Tom lets Myrtle think Daisy won't give him a divorce because she is "Catholic" (which Myrtle's sister appears to believe). Wilson may be only TOO controlling of his wife (who should have a right to leave him--and he apparently deceived her about his financial state when they married, which was an even big deal then than it is now, but of course, Gatsby has tried to do the same thing when he first met Daisy). Actually, in violence, Wilson and Tom are alike: Wilson has locked up his wife, possibly roughed her up; Tom has bruised Daisy's finger in the first scene and breaks Myrtle's nose when she even mentions his wife, even though he has flaunted Myrtle in public. He doesn't just "tip off" Wilson that it's Gatsby's car: he lets Wilson think Gatsby was the one having an affair with Myrtle.

    Does Tom really not know, or just not want to know, that Daisy was the one who "ran over Myrtle like you’d run over a dog and never even stopped [the] car"? Like Tom, she wanted to eat her cake and have her cake--choosing the affair over the rich spouse was never seriously considered (although dramatic productions work better if you think she MIGHT love Gatsby enough to leave Tom--the 40s version with Alan Ladd is the only one where viewers might think Daisy is worth all this. Until we find out she isn't--which Gatsby can't ever acknowledge).

    The grandeur--and sadness--of Gatsby's vision is that he has ideals about people who are unworthy of them. He thinks he wants to be a certain kind of man so he will be worthy of Daisy, but without being conscious of it, he has set up winning Daisy as proof that he has become that kind of man. "Old Family" Nick prefers Gatsby to the Tom or Daisy because he sees that despite his probably ruthless climb (BTW, Gatsby's spending is no more frivolous than Tom's is in college, where it raised even Old Money eyebrows), Gatsby still has so much idealism, however misapplied, while the Buchanans are just cynical users (as is Wolfsheim--extremes meet). As a character says in the TV movie of Dunne's "People Like Us" (which has its own scathing commentary on the clash between old and new money), "I got my money the same way you did--by taking it away from other people."

    I will agree with you on one thing--Gatsby had the vision to be a great man, if he had accepted the fact that his dream (symbolized by the green light on the dock) was already behind him, and had gone on to something better, instead of turning back to try to recapture it. But what Nick sees is the others don't have any dreams left, worthy or unworthy. They can only prey on those who still have them, like emotional vampires.
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  159. guest says:
    @middle aged vet . . .
    guest - O'Hara's short stories came out in a Library of America version earlier this year, but that, while a big event for people who read good American books, is probably not something more than 1 in 100,000 Americans cares much about.
    My take on his view of the world is from reading some of the very very good short stories and reading some of what Matthew Bruccoli (a younger contemporary of his) wrote about him. I don't read the Atlantic or similar progressive and inaccurate publications, and if I did, I would double check what they say before repeating it. I also have more background knowledge than you would expect of Irish Roman Catholicism of O'Hara's day. Of course O'Hara would keep ethnic resentments off front stage in the novels, maybe even completely off stage, he had to sell lots of them, and he had absolutely no desire to target his market to fellow Catholics, or to have a reviewer say that was what he was doing - plus, as you say, he was interested in lots of things besides resentment. The short stories were not subject to negative reviews in the same way; not saying that he cared less about writing good novels than writing good short stories, just saying I think that, whatever his intentions were, the short stories are a better gauge of what he cared most about in the world. Who knows, though? Unlike, say, Fitzgerald, O'Hara was, in addition to being a naturally gifted writer, someone with profound insights about lots of things, at least when fairly sober (which he was much more often than Fitzgerald in any given year). The better the writer, the easier it is for the writer to pretend to care about something not really cared about,and vice versa.

    Again, I must admit I lack sufficient knowledge of O’Hara’s biography. Aside from reading all his major novels and some novellas, I have read only a smattering of his stories. I don’t know what his big sellers were, and would only be guessing at the–what shall I call it–orientation of his artistic intent. If he was like Fitzgerald, he wrote short stories to pay the bills and longer works for prestige. Given which, I shouldn’t be surprised to find exploitation of popular prejudice and the airing of grievance more prevalent in the former form.

    Not many people read short stories anymore. O’Hara’s reputation with the general public, such as it is, relies on the continuing popularity (or lackthereof) of his novels. Many of which are still in print, or at least Appointment in Samarra, Butterfield 8, and Ten North Frederick are. It’s strange to me, the idea that you hear in association with his name so much about being a social climber, being resentful, and about his ethnic identity. Because that is more “between the lines” in the novels, if there at all.

    Which could be explained by him having been on his best behavior. But more than that, the novels almost go at it from the opposite direction. They’re about the decline of the late WASP ruling class, if not from the perspective of WASPs then from a sympathetic detached perspective. Even From the Terrace, for instance, is about the outsized ambition and national success of an already wealthy provincial (he goes from being the son of a father who virtually owns a factory town to partner at a J.P. Morgan-type firm and important member of the wartime FDR administration) who ends in stagnation. But you don’t want him to, and at least I ended up despising the lower orders in the book more than he.

    I suppose you could say O’Hara was wishing for their downfall. But like I said, they’re sympathetic stories, not harsh or ironic. How can someone with a reputation for social climbing and ethnic grievance live on in literature almost entirely as a sort of apologist for the decaying WASP elite? Aside from being a great artist.

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    • Replies: @middle aged vet . . .
    Guest, I can't tell you anything about O'Hara that you don't know. Maybe Updike or someone famous like that said something about him, and that stuck, unfairly. From my point of view he is a great short story writer - as good as Fitzgerald - and his very best story that I have read so far is called "The Graven Image" and it is the most stone cold depiction of long-held resentment that I have ever read. And the resentment was directed at a WASP from an Irish Roman Catholic.

    I can tell you, though, that I completely disagree with you that O'Hara is remembered at all by more than a few people. Let's say there is one Barnes and Noble for every 500,000 or so Americans - and at each Barnes and Noble, out of, let's say, 2ooo books on display by deceased authors, maybe 2 or 3 will be by O'Hara. So if there are 600 Barnes and Nobles in the country, and if each one sells one O'Hara novel every month, two in a good month, and if that number is equaled by the independent bookstores of this country, then a grand total of 50.000 dollars a year is spent in bookstores on O'hara novels. Or about half the salary of a high school English teacher in Pottsville.
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  160. @Dave Pinsen
    Crichton wrote in State of Fear that Holmby Hills was the fanciest part of Beverly Hills, but the FT's real estate section said recently that Beverly Hills was now only the 6th most expensive zip code in Los Angeles. Plots too small for the newest mega mansions, apparently.

    Well, in that case Crichton should fire his researcher – Holmby Hills isn’t even in Beverly Hills, much less its “fanciest part”.
    Bel Air has always been more desirable than Beverly Hills: larger lots, magnificent views. My aunt’s place is on four acres and has a view from the terrace which stretches from Santa Monica and the Pacific to downtown Los Angeles.
    Like Holmby it used to be off limits to the Hollywood crowd, but those days are long gone.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    There is a lot more construction of mansions in the $50 million range going on around the Bel-Air Country Club than around LACC on the edge of Beverly Hills. Bel Air is a couple of miles west of Beverly Hills and was developed later in the 1920s, I believe, as development progresses west toward the ocean. (Los Angeles real estate is kind of counter-intuitive in that the city started out about 20 miles inland and slowly expanded toward the ocean, which is the opposite of most of the coastal cities in the world.)

    I'm guessing tends to have Bel-Air bigger lots and bigger mansions than Beverly Hills to tear down for Russian oligarchs to build upon. E.g., the Beverly Hillbillies mansion is in Bel-Air.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Crichton's no longer with us, but it's weird he would get that wrong, living in Los Angeles at the time. Is Sunset Boulevard the line that separates them?
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  161. @guest
    Again, I must admit I lack sufficient knowledge of O'Hara's biography. Aside from reading all his major novels and some novellas, I have read only a smattering of his stories. I don't know what his big sellers were, and would only be guessing at the--what shall I call it--orientation of his artistic intent. If he was like Fitzgerald, he wrote short stories to pay the bills and longer works for prestige. Given which, I shouldn't be surprised to find exploitation of popular prejudice and the airing of grievance more prevalent in the former form.

    Not many people read short stories anymore. O'Hara's reputation with the general public, such as it is, relies on the continuing popularity (or lackthereof) of his novels. Many of which are still in print, or at least Appointment in Samarra, Butterfield 8, and Ten North Frederick are. It's strange to me, the idea that you hear in association with his name so much about being a social climber, being resentful, and about his ethnic identity. Because that is more "between the lines" in the novels, if there at all.

    Which could be explained by him having been on his best behavior. But more than that, the novels almost go at it from the opposite direction. They're about the decline of the late WASP ruling class, if not from the perspective of WASPs then from a sympathetic detached perspective. Even From the Terrace, for instance, is about the outsized ambition and national success of an already wealthy provincial (he goes from being the son of a father who virtually owns a factory town to partner at a J.P. Morgan-type firm and important member of the wartime FDR administration) who ends in stagnation. But you don't want him to, and at least I ended up despising the lower orders in the book more than he.

    I suppose you could say O'Hara was wishing for their downfall. But like I said, they're sympathetic stories, not harsh or ironic. How can someone with a reputation for social climbing and ethnic grievance live on in literature almost entirely as a sort of apologist for the decaying WASP elite? Aside from being a great artist.

    Guest, I can’t tell you anything about O’Hara that you don’t know. Maybe Updike or someone famous like that said something about him, and that stuck, unfairly. From my point of view he is a great short story writer – as good as Fitzgerald – and his very best story that I have read so far is called “The Graven Image” and it is the most stone cold depiction of long-held resentment that I have ever read. And the resentment was directed at a WASP from an Irish Roman Catholic.

    I can tell you, though, that I completely disagree with you that O’Hara is remembered at all by more than a few people. Let’s say there is one Barnes and Noble for every 500,000 or so Americans – and at each Barnes and Noble, out of, let’s say, 2ooo books on display by deceased authors, maybe 2 or 3 will be by O’Hara. So if there are 600 Barnes and Nobles in the country, and if each one sells one O’Hara novel every month, two in a good month, and if that number is equaled by the independent bookstores of this country, then a grand total of 50.000 dollars a year is spent in bookstores on O’hara novels. Or about half the salary of a high school English teacher in Pottsville.

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    • Replies: @guest
    It may not amount to much in the grand scheme of things, but how many writers are remembered at all 50 years after their death? Aside from the Library of America collection, I see five other O'Hara books in print.* That's not on the level of Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Faulkner, Steinbeck, and so on. But compare it to nearly every writer who ever lived, and it's notable.

    Granted, if he still exists in wider public consciousness it's not by name, and more likely indirect, through Elizabeth Taylor (for the Butterfield 8 movie), or some combination of Sinatra, Rita Hayworth, Kim Novak, and Rodgers & Hart (for the Pal Joey musical).

    Critical/academic opinion could be more important, but O'Hara is mostly dead to that. It would appear they remember him more for being a masterful short story craftsman, as well as the creator of Gibbsville, PA, than for having written novels. (The most critically acclaimed novel, I think, is Appointment in Samarra, which perhaps not coincidentally is set in Gibbsville.)**

    *Appointment in Samarra, Butterfield 8, Ten North Frederick, Pal Joey, and a collection of "New York stories."

    **There was a Gibbsville tv show at some point, but I don't think anyone remembers it.

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  162. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Marty
    Sure, but again, has Stanford been in the news self-destructing lately?

    Upon rereading I see your point.

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  163. @guest
    Wilson is not Gatsby. There's nothing special about him. No indication he possessed the vision or discipline to be a great man. Which perhaps Gatsby possessed, if you take seriously the regimen for self-improvement from his youth Nick finds written down.

    Instead of following such a path, he takes easy ways out. First, joining that rich guy on his yacht. Then, allowing himself to be groomed for the bootlegging business. Finally, spending his fortune frivolously.

    The world is full of Wilsons, who thrive or wither, but neither squander nor fulfill potential. They're just living their lives. His would've been immensely improved if he had married better, or managed to control his wife. Or if Gatsby and Tom alike had been more responsible.

    The rich man with the yacht–is that in the book, or just the Di Caprio movie?–is straight out of Horatio Alger. There is always a kindly millionaire who notices and rewards boys with initiative. (Of course, Alger’s real motive for wanting boys to hope for the notice of rich men was quite another thing.)

    Nick may be from an old family, but he is nowhere near as rich as either the Buchanans or Gatsby. It’s also implied that Tom Buchanan’s money comes from Robber Barons who acquired it only slightly less recently and not at all less ruthlessly than Gatsby.

    Tom and Daisy are much worse than “a cad” and “an airhead.” The both sexually use people born into the underclass, Myrtle Wilson and Gatsby, give them false hope that they love them enough to stay with them, and change their approach to life not one whit after they have caused their deaths. Tom lets Myrtle think Daisy won’t give him a divorce because she is “Catholic” (which Myrtle’s sister appears to believe). Wilson may be only TOO controlling of his wife (who should have a right to leave him–and he apparently deceived her about his financial state when they married, which was an even big deal then than it is now, but of course, Gatsby has tried to do the same thing when he first met Daisy). Actually, in violence, Wilson and Tom are alike: Wilson has locked up his wife, possibly roughed her up; Tom has bruised Daisy’s finger in the first scene and breaks Myrtle’s nose when she even mentions his wife, even though he has flaunted Myrtle in public. He doesn’t just “tip off” Wilson that it’s Gatsby’s car: he lets Wilson think Gatsby was the one having an affair with Myrtle.

    Does Tom really not know, or just not want to know, that Daisy was the one who “ran over Myrtle like you’d run over a dog and never even stopped [the] car”? Like Tom, she wanted to eat her cake and have her cake–choosing the affair over the rich spouse was never seriously considered (although dramatic productions work better if you think she MIGHT love Gatsby enough to leave Tom–the 40s version with Alan Ladd is the only one where viewers might think Daisy is worth all this. Until we find out she isn’t–which Gatsby can’t ever acknowledge).

    The grandeur–and sadness–of Gatsby’s vision is that he has ideals about people who are unworthy of them. He thinks he wants to be a certain kind of man so he will be worthy of Daisy, but without being conscious of it, he has set up winning Daisy as proof that he has become that kind of man. “Old Family” Nick prefers Gatsby to the Tom or Daisy because he sees that despite his probably ruthless climb (BTW, Gatsby’s spending is no more frivolous than Tom’s is in college, where it raised even Old Money eyebrows), Gatsby still has so much idealism, however misapplied, while the Buchanans are just cynical users (as is Wolfsheim–extremes meet). As a character says in the TV movie of Dunne’s “People Like Us” (which has its own scathing commentary on the clash between old and new money), “I got my money the same way you did–by taking it away from other people.”

    I will agree with you on one thing–Gatsby had the vision to be a great man, if he had accepted the fact that his dream (symbolized by the green light on the dock) was already behind him, and had gone on to something better, instead of turning back to try to recapture it. But what Nick sees is the others don’t have any dreams left, worthy or unworthy. They can only prey on those who still have them, like emotional vampires.

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    • Replies: @guest
    The yachtsman is in the book, and if it were an Alger story instead of a tragedy Gastby would've had learned from the experience for future productive use, or gotten seed money with which to build his life. As it is in the novel, I think he's cheated out of the will, or somehow didn't get what he expected.

    In any case, he uses knowledge gained not very productively, but to get in the rackets. Not that bootlegging isn't commerce. They are fulfilling a need. But it's not honest commerce, and everything about Gatsby is a con. His whole life from that point on is to be a frontman. Everything about him is a front, except that he loves Daisy.

    Tom, on the other hand, most certainly is wasteful. I don't know what the origin of his wealth is, good, sordid, or evil. But we're led to believe he'll never have to work a day in his life no matter what he does. So from the perspective of wasted potential it doesn't matter as much if Tom squandered money in college.

    If Gatsby were born with the same personality in Tom's position, it wouldn't much matter if he wasted money, either, because he could still be something. But Gatsby is in Gatsby's position, which is a house of cards that's bound to collapse. He isn't going to make it into easy retirement with or without the car accident, I think that's clear. There's a vortex of chaos around his get rich quick world.

    The financial scheme with which he tempts Nick is important for my understanding, here. It's obvious Wolfsheim uses people. Perhaps a little less obvious the way Gatsby uses Nick, because Nick admires him. Or at least admires him more than Tom and Daisy. But Gatsby is friends with Nick as a means of getting at Daisy, and the incentives he offers would be Nick's ruin. Probably lots of ruined people were on Gatsby's road to wealth.

    , @guest
    Whether or not Myrtle has grounds for divorce, she has no grounds for cuckolding her husband. And by controlling her, I don't mean beating her. I mean preventing her from running around with other men.

    I accept that Tom misled his mistress, but I wouldn't trust the word of a married man with whom I'm sleeping on the subject of his wife. Tom's not in love with her as she with he, but she's still using him to get out of her dull life.

    Is there any indication that Daisy was using Gatsby back when? I mean in a malicious sense. She uses people like a spoiled little girl does, which is what she is. But I don't know about her leading him on. Sounds too calculated for her.

    There's for me a mindlessness about the way the Buchanans operate, which could be a class comment. Because they're the idle rich, whom Fitzgerald may have despised. On the other hand, Gatsby comes from nothing and has to work. He uses people almost as ruthlessly, and he's more deliberate about it. But romantic Nick likes him better because he sees "what might have been."

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  164. guest says:
    @middle aged vet . . .
    to guest at 6:18 am - generally, in the 1930s to 1950s, if you aligned with the Bohemians and the modernists, you were thought of as anti-establishment and, a fortiori, resentful. Some of the famous novelists of that time are still remembered (sometimes barely) - Steinbeck, Cozzens, Faulkner, Carson McCullers, Peter de Vries, Ross Lockridge, Hemingway, dos Passos - and only one or two of the ones that are remembered (in the list I just gave, and generally) were neither Bohemian nor modernist. And the one who was the least modernist and the least Bohemian, Cozzens, was still politically modernist (pro-choice back when contraceptive sales were illegal). So to get a grip on the world-view of that time in America is difficult, if one relies on the famous authors from back then who still sell a few books a year.

    My custom is to talk of modernism in the sense of form, style, and technique. Politics, that’s another matter. For some inexplicable reason, with the coming of modernism most artists either became leftists or kept politics to themselves.* A scant few were upfront about being reactionaries. Like Evelyn Waugh, who nevertheless availed himself of modernist techniques.

    My preference is for more old-fashioned technique, and I can read outright socialists like Orwell with pleasure. I don’t attempt to ferret out authors’ politics, but rather look at it from the perspective of which side they objectively support, as a Marxist might put it. Would forcing everyone to read James Gould Cozzens in the Current Year make the world more or less likely to conform to my wishes? I think the answer is more. Certainly he’s miles ahead of others on inheritance and implied HBD, which of course makes him unbearably racists to even slightly sensitive modern progressives.**

    O’Hara’s effective message with all those Decline of WASPdom novels was that it was a sad thing, and a Dismal Tide was to follow. With that I agree, even if I blame the WASPs for it, among others. (He may have as well.)

    De Vries I like, but find tending towards the wrong side on the Sex Question, as well as put off by his anti-theism in Blood of the Lamb. This coming from a non-believer.

    Steinbeck I can do without utterly.

    Dos Passos, if I’m not mistaken, exhibited different politics at different times in his career. But I’ve only read Mid-century, anyway, so I couldn’t comment.

    Going about it this way is perhaps overly complicated and at best catch-as-catch-can. But the alternative is just to write most literature off politically after the 1890s or whenever. Leaving me mostly with propaganda. Which I don’t want to do. So I tweeze out what I can.

    Saul Bellow, for instance, represents something I despise, namely neoconservatism. Which means in his early mode he’s all existentialist and
    a pinko, then suddenly he’s writing a roman-a-clef about Allan Bloom, of all people, and defending Israel. But we have common enemies, in the stagnant Midcentury Liberal Consensus and the New Left. And it’s not like reading a David Frum column or a tweet by Bill Kristol.

    *Which has deluded leftists into thinking all artists are naturally leftist, unless diseased. This despite the fact that they reflexively hate Dead White Males who did nothing but support corrupt then-existing power structures, or however they’d put it.

    **About the abortion issue, I think I had a reaction to reading Men and Brethren exactly opposite to that of other people. They talk about it as hating the protagonist at first, then growing to like him as he’s humanized. I loved him from page one, then started disliking him more and more as he was revealed to have no integrity. The abortion section was just part of that.

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    middle aged vet said - Interesting and unexpected reply, guest. To be fair, although I try to be accurate when I comment on the internet, I do not really care all that much about any novelist's reputation. My best guess is that within a 100 years the tide will have almost completely shifted from reading novels to reading AI-selected excerpts from the novelists at their best - and at least a 1000 novelists have written really good excerpts - and to reading, for actual pleasure, only the better novels that the people of a 100 years from now will be writing, to the exclusion of everybody else from earlier years, with the possible exceptions of really unique writers like Austen and Dickens and Melville and Wodehouse and Tolkien (to stick with English-speaking writers). At that point , arguing about which novelist was more or less in accord with which version of truth - resentment or non-resentment (the argument we have been having), neo-conservatism or social justice warrior arrogance, clever modernism or cleverer conservatism - will be about as popular an activity as, let's say, arguing, today, about which of the mostly anonymous sculptors working on the medieval cathedrals were the best and most true.

    Anyway, thanks for a good discussion, please feel free to get in the last word. By the way, Stevens and Eliot and Winters and Frost were very good poets, and none of them were remotely leftist (well, except maybe Eliot, who was sort of an idiot savant). Also, abortion is not a complicated subject. Good people do not allow their babies to be scraped out of a womb under any but the most extreme circumstances. It really is that simple. Cozzens was a good writer but an idiot.

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  165. guest says:
    @middle aged vet . . .
    Guest, I can't tell you anything about O'Hara that you don't know. Maybe Updike or someone famous like that said something about him, and that stuck, unfairly. From my point of view he is a great short story writer - as good as Fitzgerald - and his very best story that I have read so far is called "The Graven Image" and it is the most stone cold depiction of long-held resentment that I have ever read. And the resentment was directed at a WASP from an Irish Roman Catholic.

    I can tell you, though, that I completely disagree with you that O'Hara is remembered at all by more than a few people. Let's say there is one Barnes and Noble for every 500,000 or so Americans - and at each Barnes and Noble, out of, let's say, 2ooo books on display by deceased authors, maybe 2 or 3 will be by O'Hara. So if there are 600 Barnes and Nobles in the country, and if each one sells one O'Hara novel every month, two in a good month, and if that number is equaled by the independent bookstores of this country, then a grand total of 50.000 dollars a year is spent in bookstores on O'hara novels. Or about half the salary of a high school English teacher in Pottsville.

    It may not amount to much in the grand scheme of things, but how many writers are remembered at all 50 years after their death? Aside from the Library of America collection, I see five other O’Hara books in print.* That’s not on the level of Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Faulkner, Steinbeck, and so on. But compare it to nearly every writer who ever lived, and it’s notable.

    Granted, if he still exists in wider public consciousness it’s not by name, and more likely indirect, through Elizabeth Taylor (for the Butterfield 8 movie), or some combination of Sinatra, Rita Hayworth, Kim Novak, and Rodgers & Hart (for the Pal Joey musical).

    Critical/academic opinion could be more important, but O’Hara is mostly dead to that. It would appear they remember him more for being a masterful short story craftsman, as well as the creator of Gibbsville, PA, than for having written novels. (The most critically acclaimed novel, I think, is Appointment in Samarra, which perhaps not coincidentally is set in Gibbsville.)**

    *Appointment in Samarra, Butterfield 8, Ten North Frederick, Pal Joey, and a collection of “New York stories.”

    **There was a Gibbsville tv show at some point, but I don’t think anyone remembers it.

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  166. guest says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    The rich man with the yacht--is that in the book, or just the Di Caprio movie?--is straight out of Horatio Alger. There is always a kindly millionaire who notices and rewards boys with initiative. (Of course, Alger's real motive for wanting boys to hope for the notice of rich men was quite another thing.)

    Nick may be from an old family, but he is nowhere near as rich as either the Buchanans or Gatsby. It's also implied that Tom Buchanan's money comes from Robber Barons who acquired it only slightly less recently and not at all less ruthlessly than Gatsby.

    Tom and Daisy are much worse than "a cad" and "an airhead." The both sexually use people born into the underclass, Myrtle Wilson and Gatsby, give them false hope that they love them enough to stay with them, and change their approach to life not one whit after they have caused their deaths. Tom lets Myrtle think Daisy won't give him a divorce because she is "Catholic" (which Myrtle's sister appears to believe). Wilson may be only TOO controlling of his wife (who should have a right to leave him--and he apparently deceived her about his financial state when they married, which was an even big deal then than it is now, but of course, Gatsby has tried to do the same thing when he first met Daisy). Actually, in violence, Wilson and Tom are alike: Wilson has locked up his wife, possibly roughed her up; Tom has bruised Daisy's finger in the first scene and breaks Myrtle's nose when she even mentions his wife, even though he has flaunted Myrtle in public. He doesn't just "tip off" Wilson that it's Gatsby's car: he lets Wilson think Gatsby was the one having an affair with Myrtle.

    Does Tom really not know, or just not want to know, that Daisy was the one who "ran over Myrtle like you’d run over a dog and never even stopped [the] car"? Like Tom, she wanted to eat her cake and have her cake--choosing the affair over the rich spouse was never seriously considered (although dramatic productions work better if you think she MIGHT love Gatsby enough to leave Tom--the 40s version with Alan Ladd is the only one where viewers might think Daisy is worth all this. Until we find out she isn't--which Gatsby can't ever acknowledge).

    The grandeur--and sadness--of Gatsby's vision is that he has ideals about people who are unworthy of them. He thinks he wants to be a certain kind of man so he will be worthy of Daisy, but without being conscious of it, he has set up winning Daisy as proof that he has become that kind of man. "Old Family" Nick prefers Gatsby to the Tom or Daisy because he sees that despite his probably ruthless climb (BTW, Gatsby's spending is no more frivolous than Tom's is in college, where it raised even Old Money eyebrows), Gatsby still has so much idealism, however misapplied, while the Buchanans are just cynical users (as is Wolfsheim--extremes meet). As a character says in the TV movie of Dunne's "People Like Us" (which has its own scathing commentary on the clash between old and new money), "I got my money the same way you did--by taking it away from other people."

    I will agree with you on one thing--Gatsby had the vision to be a great man, if he had accepted the fact that his dream (symbolized by the green light on the dock) was already behind him, and had gone on to something better, instead of turning back to try to recapture it. But what Nick sees is the others don't have any dreams left, worthy or unworthy. They can only prey on those who still have them, like emotional vampires.

    The yachtsman is in the book, and if it were an Alger story instead of a tragedy Gastby would’ve had learned from the experience for future productive use, or gotten seed money with which to build his life. As it is in the novel, I think he’s cheated out of the will, or somehow didn’t get what he expected.

    In any case, he uses knowledge gained not very productively, but to get in the rackets. Not that bootlegging isn’t commerce. They are fulfilling a need. But it’s not honest commerce, and everything about Gatsby is a con. His whole life from that point on is to be a frontman. Everything about him is a front, except that he loves Daisy.

    Tom, on the other hand, most certainly is wasteful. I don’t know what the origin of his wealth is, good, sordid, or evil. But we’re led to believe he’ll never have to work a day in his life no matter what he does. So from the perspective of wasted potential it doesn’t matter as much if Tom squandered money in college.

    If Gatsby were born with the same personality in Tom’s position, it wouldn’t much matter if he wasted money, either, because he could still be something. But Gatsby is in Gatsby’s position, which is a house of cards that’s bound to collapse. He isn’t going to make it into easy retirement with or without the car accident, I think that’s clear. There’s a vortex of chaos around his get rich quick world.

    The financial scheme with which he tempts Nick is important for my understanding, here. It’s obvious Wolfsheim uses people. Perhaps a little less obvious the way Gatsby uses Nick, because Nick admires him. Or at least admires him more than Tom and Daisy. But Gatsby is friends with Nick as a means of getting at Daisy, and the incentives he offers would be Nick’s ruin. Probably lots of ruined people were on Gatsby’s road to wealth.

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  167. guest says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    The rich man with the yacht--is that in the book, or just the Di Caprio movie?--is straight out of Horatio Alger. There is always a kindly millionaire who notices and rewards boys with initiative. (Of course, Alger's real motive for wanting boys to hope for the notice of rich men was quite another thing.)

    Nick may be from an old family, but he is nowhere near as rich as either the Buchanans or Gatsby. It's also implied that Tom Buchanan's money comes from Robber Barons who acquired it only slightly less recently and not at all less ruthlessly than Gatsby.

    Tom and Daisy are much worse than "a cad" and "an airhead." The both sexually use people born into the underclass, Myrtle Wilson and Gatsby, give them false hope that they love them enough to stay with them, and change their approach to life not one whit after they have caused their deaths. Tom lets Myrtle think Daisy won't give him a divorce because she is "Catholic" (which Myrtle's sister appears to believe). Wilson may be only TOO controlling of his wife (who should have a right to leave him--and he apparently deceived her about his financial state when they married, which was an even big deal then than it is now, but of course, Gatsby has tried to do the same thing when he first met Daisy). Actually, in violence, Wilson and Tom are alike: Wilson has locked up his wife, possibly roughed her up; Tom has bruised Daisy's finger in the first scene and breaks Myrtle's nose when she even mentions his wife, even though he has flaunted Myrtle in public. He doesn't just "tip off" Wilson that it's Gatsby's car: he lets Wilson think Gatsby was the one having an affair with Myrtle.

    Does Tom really not know, or just not want to know, that Daisy was the one who "ran over Myrtle like you’d run over a dog and never even stopped [the] car"? Like Tom, she wanted to eat her cake and have her cake--choosing the affair over the rich spouse was never seriously considered (although dramatic productions work better if you think she MIGHT love Gatsby enough to leave Tom--the 40s version with Alan Ladd is the only one where viewers might think Daisy is worth all this. Until we find out she isn't--which Gatsby can't ever acknowledge).

    The grandeur--and sadness--of Gatsby's vision is that he has ideals about people who are unworthy of them. He thinks he wants to be a certain kind of man so he will be worthy of Daisy, but without being conscious of it, he has set up winning Daisy as proof that he has become that kind of man. "Old Family" Nick prefers Gatsby to the Tom or Daisy because he sees that despite his probably ruthless climb (BTW, Gatsby's spending is no more frivolous than Tom's is in college, where it raised even Old Money eyebrows), Gatsby still has so much idealism, however misapplied, while the Buchanans are just cynical users (as is Wolfsheim--extremes meet). As a character says in the TV movie of Dunne's "People Like Us" (which has its own scathing commentary on the clash between old and new money), "I got my money the same way you did--by taking it away from other people."

    I will agree with you on one thing--Gatsby had the vision to be a great man, if he had accepted the fact that his dream (symbolized by the green light on the dock) was already behind him, and had gone on to something better, instead of turning back to try to recapture it. But what Nick sees is the others don't have any dreams left, worthy or unworthy. They can only prey on those who still have them, like emotional vampires.

    Whether or not Myrtle has grounds for divorce, she has no grounds for cuckolding her husband. And by controlling her, I don’t mean beating her. I mean preventing her from running around with other men.

    I accept that Tom misled his mistress, but I wouldn’t trust the word of a married man with whom I’m sleeping on the subject of his wife. Tom’s not in love with her as she with he, but she’s still using him to get out of her dull life.

    Is there any indication that Daisy was using Gatsby back when? I mean in a malicious sense. She uses people like a spoiled little girl does, which is what she is. But I don’t know about her leading him on. Sounds too calculated for her.

    There’s for me a mindlessness about the way the Buchanans operate, which could be a class comment. Because they’re the idle rich, whom Fitzgerald may have despised. On the other hand, Gatsby comes from nothing and has to work. He uses people almost as ruthlessly, and he’s more deliberate about it. But romantic Nick likes him better because he sees “what might have been.”

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    I'll agree that Nick, as Fitzgerald's WASP mouthpiece, admires the Protestant Work Ethic, even if Gatsby has put it to poor use, and despises Tom and Daisy because they don't have it at all.

    Did Daisy lead on Gatsby? She did have sex with him, which meant a LOT more in the way of commitment in those days (married women could have affairs, single girls must not). Fitzgerald writes that Gatsby considered them already married. But perhaps her biggest flaw is she does NOT consider her effect on people--it's less malice than complete obliviousness to other people except as props in her personal drama.

    In the Redford version, Gatsby seems to have changed his mind and gets Wolfsheim to back off about the "deal," but of course this may be less out of liking for Nick himself than the realization that he has more chance of reconnecting with Daisy through Nick if he doesn't run any scams on him. I think he does develop some genuine liking for Nick, if only because Nick doesn't play "I'm more Socially Registered than thou."

    Up until he meets Daisy, Gatsby's ambitions could have gone the Horatio Alger route. Once he realizes Daisy is more impressed by Tom's ready money than a work ethic or any other ethic (Gatsby's at freakin' Oxford, even if he isn't a real "Oxford man"), he pursues glitter instead of gold.
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  168. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @guest
    My custom is to talk of modernism in the sense of form, style, and technique. Politics, that's another matter. For some inexplicable reason, with the coming of modernism most artists either became leftists or kept politics to themselves.* A scant few were upfront about being reactionaries. Like Evelyn Waugh, who nevertheless availed himself of modernist techniques.

    My preference is for more old-fashioned technique, and I can read outright socialists like Orwell with pleasure. I don't attempt to ferret out authors' politics, but rather look at it from the perspective of which side they objectively support, as a Marxist might put it. Would forcing everyone to read James Gould Cozzens in the Current Year make the world more or less likely to conform to my wishes? I think the answer is more. Certainly he's miles ahead of others on inheritance and implied HBD, which of course makes him unbearably racists to even slightly sensitive modern progressives.**

    O'Hara's effective message with all those Decline of WASPdom novels was that it was a sad thing, and a Dismal Tide was to follow. With that I agree, even if I blame the WASPs for it, among others. (He may have as well.)

    De Vries I like, but find tending towards the wrong side on the Sex Question, as well as put off by his anti-theism in Blood of the Lamb. This coming from a non-believer.

    Steinbeck I can do without utterly.

    Dos Passos, if I'm not mistaken, exhibited different politics at different times in his career. But I've only read Mid-century, anyway, so I couldn't comment.

    Going about it this way is perhaps overly complicated and at best catch-as-catch-can. But the alternative is just to write most literature off politically after the 1890s or whenever. Leaving me mostly with propaganda. Which I don't want to do. So I tweeze out what I can.

    Saul Bellow, for instance, represents something I despise, namely neoconservatism. Which means in his early mode he's all existentialist and
    a pinko, then suddenly he's writing a roman-a-clef about Allan Bloom, of all people, and defending Israel. But we have common enemies, in the stagnant Midcentury Liberal Consensus and the New Left. And it's not like reading a David Frum column or a tweet by Bill Kristol.

    *Which has deluded leftists into thinking all artists are naturally leftist, unless diseased. This despite the fact that they reflexively hate Dead White Males who did nothing but support corrupt then-existing power structures, or however they'd put it.

    **About the abortion issue, I think I had a reaction to reading Men and Brethren exactly opposite to that of other people. They talk about it as hating the protagonist at first, then growing to like him as he's humanized. I loved him from page one, then started disliking him more and more as he was revealed to have no integrity. The abortion section was just part of that.

    middle aged vet said – Interesting and unexpected reply, guest. To be fair, although I try to be accurate when I comment on the internet, I do not really care all that much about any novelist’s reputation. My best guess is that within a 100 years the tide will have almost completely shifted from reading novels to reading AI-selected excerpts from the novelists at their best – and at least a 1000 novelists have written really good excerpts – and to reading, for actual pleasure, only the better novels that the people of a 100 years from now will be writing, to the exclusion of everybody else from earlier years, with the possible exceptions of really unique writers like Austen and Dickens and Melville and Wodehouse and Tolkien (to stick with English-speaking writers). At that point , arguing about which novelist was more or less in accord with which version of truth – resentment or non-resentment (the argument we have been having), neo-conservatism or social justice warrior arrogance, clever modernism or cleverer conservatism – will be about as popular an activity as, let’s say, arguing, today, about which of the mostly anonymous sculptors working on the medieval cathedrals were the best and most true.

    Anyway, thanks for a good discussion, please feel free to get in the last word. By the way, Stevens and Eliot and Winters and Frost were very good poets, and none of them were remotely leftist (well, except maybe Eliot, who was sort of an idiot savant). Also, abortion is not a complicated subject. Good people do not allow their babies to be scraped out of a womb under any but the most extreme circumstances. It really is that simple. Cozzens was a good writer but an idiot.

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  169. @guest
    Whether or not Myrtle has grounds for divorce, she has no grounds for cuckolding her husband. And by controlling her, I don't mean beating her. I mean preventing her from running around with other men.

    I accept that Tom misled his mistress, but I wouldn't trust the word of a married man with whom I'm sleeping on the subject of his wife. Tom's not in love with her as she with he, but she's still using him to get out of her dull life.

    Is there any indication that Daisy was using Gatsby back when? I mean in a malicious sense. She uses people like a spoiled little girl does, which is what she is. But I don't know about her leading him on. Sounds too calculated for her.

    There's for me a mindlessness about the way the Buchanans operate, which could be a class comment. Because they're the idle rich, whom Fitzgerald may have despised. On the other hand, Gatsby comes from nothing and has to work. He uses people almost as ruthlessly, and he's more deliberate about it. But romantic Nick likes him better because he sees "what might have been."

    I’ll agree that Nick, as Fitzgerald’s WASP mouthpiece, admires the Protestant Work Ethic, even if Gatsby has put it to poor use, and despises Tom and Daisy because they don’t have it at all.

    Did Daisy lead on Gatsby? She did have sex with him, which meant a LOT more in the way of commitment in those days (married women could have affairs, single girls must not). Fitzgerald writes that Gatsby considered them already married. But perhaps her biggest flaw is she does NOT consider her effect on people–it’s less malice than complete obliviousness to other people except as props in her personal drama.

    In the Redford version, Gatsby seems to have changed his mind and gets Wolfsheim to back off about the “deal,” but of course this may be less out of liking for Nick himself than the realization that he has more chance of reconnecting with Daisy through Nick if he doesn’t run any scams on him. I think he does develop some genuine liking for Nick, if only because Nick doesn’t play “I’m more Socially Registered than thou.”

    Up until he meets Daisy, Gatsby’s ambitions could have gone the Horatio Alger route. Once he realizes Daisy is more impressed by Tom’s ready money than a work ethic or any other ethic (Gatsby’s at freakin’ Oxford, even if he isn’t a real “Oxford man”), he pursues glitter instead of gold.

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  170. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sunbeam
    "Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados."

    What does that mean? Avocado, whether fruit or vegetable, is nothing I have much experience with.

    If he had used watermelons or cantaloupes, I could work with that. Got nothin' on avocados though.

    “Jon Stewart says Jews age like avocados.”

    What does that mean? Avocado, whether fruit or vegetable, is nothing I have much experience with.

    If he had used watermelons or cantaloupes, I could work with that. Got nothin’ on avocados though.

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  171. @Old Palo Altan
    Well, in that case Crichton should fire his researcher - Holmby Hills isn't even in Beverly Hills, much less its "fanciest part".
    Bel Air has always been more desirable than Beverly Hills: larger lots, magnificent views. My aunt's place is on four acres and has a view from the terrace which stretches from Santa Monica and the Pacific to downtown Los Angeles.
    Like Holmby it used to be off limits to the Hollywood crowd, but those days are long gone.

    There is a lot more construction of mansions in the $50 million range going on around the Bel-Air Country Club than around LACC on the edge of Beverly Hills. Bel Air is a couple of miles west of Beverly Hills and was developed later in the 1920s, I believe, as development progresses west toward the ocean. (Los Angeles real estate is kind of counter-intuitive in that the city started out about 20 miles inland and slowly expanded toward the ocean, which is the opposite of most of the coastal cities in the world.)

    I’m guessing tends to have Bel-Air bigger lots and bigger mansions than Beverly Hills to tear down for Russian oligarchs to build upon. E.g., the Beverly Hillbillies mansion is in Bel-Air.

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  172. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Old Palo Altan
    Well, in that case Crichton should fire his researcher - Holmby Hills isn't even in Beverly Hills, much less its "fanciest part".
    Bel Air has always been more desirable than Beverly Hills: larger lots, magnificent views. My aunt's place is on four acres and has a view from the terrace which stretches from Santa Monica and the Pacific to downtown Los Angeles.
    Like Holmby it used to be off limits to the Hollywood crowd, but those days are long gone.

    Crichton’s no longer with us, but it’s weird he would get that wrong, living in Los Angeles at the time. Is Sunset Boulevard the line that separates them?

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    Holmby Hills has a very strange shape, particularly where it borders with Beverly Hills. The southern boundary is notionally Wilshire Boulevard but really Comstock, the western is Beverly Glen Blvd, the northern is Greendale and Brooklawn Drives, and the eastern is ... a number of right angles as though we were suddenly in Kansas.

    Holmby Park is at the extreme south and the Harvard-Westlake School at the extreme north.

    Holmby people identify much more with Bel Air and Brentwood than they do with Beverly Hills. I wonder where Crichton lived? Perhaps his realtor pulled a fast one on him.
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  173. FPD72 says:

    The 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation must have gotten you thinking about Lutheranism. Hefner described his upbringing as “conservative, Midwestern, and Methodist.”

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  174. @Dave Pinsen
    Crichton's no longer with us, but it's weird he would get that wrong, living in Los Angeles at the time. Is Sunset Boulevard the line that separates them?

    Holmby Hills has a very strange shape, particularly where it borders with Beverly Hills. The southern boundary is notionally Wilshire Boulevard but really Comstock, the western is Beverly Glen Blvd, the northern is Greendale and Brooklawn Drives, and the eastern is … a number of right angles as though we were suddenly in Kansas.

    Holmby Park is at the extreme south and the Harvard-Westlake School at the extreme north.

    Holmby people identify much more with Bel Air and Brentwood than they do with Beverly Hills. I wonder where Crichton lived? Perhaps his realtor pulled a fast one on him.

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    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    I'll answer myself: he lived at 2xxx La Mesa Drive in ... Santa Monica.
    I know my Santa Monica, and a little Google map sleuthing found it for me, even though I had no address other than the city and a mention of the house's age, and that it looked out on a golf course. Quite simple really, and when I dropped that little man onto my chosen street I was only one house away from the one that turned out to be his.

    Well, what does it tell us? That Crichton liked to live with the Hollywood set (this being the only important street in Santa Monica they frequented) and that he had relatively modest tastes: the house is big, but the lot is half an acre, and the houses are therefore not at all far apart.

    But to the question about Holmby Hills: had he got into the habit of driving East on San Vicente and then into Wilshire and thus through the LACC into Beverly Hills, he would have quite naturally seen Holmby as the grand introduction to Beverly and thus notionally part of it. It made sense; it was just wrong.
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  175. @Steve Sailer
    Hillcrest started letting in gentiles about 30 to 40 years after its founding in 1922, such as Danny Thomas and Walter O'Malley.

    Famously, Jack Benny objected to Danny Thomas saying, “if we are now going to admit Gentiles, we should be admitting Gentiles who, at least, look like Gentiles!”

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  176. @Old Palo Altan
    Holmby Hills has a very strange shape, particularly where it borders with Beverly Hills. The southern boundary is notionally Wilshire Boulevard but really Comstock, the western is Beverly Glen Blvd, the northern is Greendale and Brooklawn Drives, and the eastern is ... a number of right angles as though we were suddenly in Kansas.

    Holmby Park is at the extreme south and the Harvard-Westlake School at the extreme north.

    Holmby people identify much more with Bel Air and Brentwood than they do with Beverly Hills. I wonder where Crichton lived? Perhaps his realtor pulled a fast one on him.

    I’ll answer myself: he lived at 2xxx La Mesa Drive in … Santa Monica.
    I know my Santa Monica, and a little Google map sleuthing found it for me, even though I had no address other than the city and a mention of the house’s age, and that it looked out on a golf course. Quite simple really, and when I dropped that little man onto my chosen street I was only one house away from the one that turned out to be his.

    Well, what does it tell us? That Crichton liked to live with the Hollywood set (this being the only important street in Santa Monica they frequented) and that he had relatively modest tastes: the house is big, but the lot is half an acre, and the houses are therefore not at all far apart.

    But to the question about Holmby Hills: had he got into the habit of driving East on San Vicente and then into Wilshire and thus through the LACC into Beverly Hills, he would have quite naturally seen Holmby as the grand introduction to Beverly and thus notionally part of it. It made sense; it was just wrong.

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