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Rome as a Genetic Melting Pot: DNA Evidence from 127 Grave Robberies
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Here’s the abstract to a paper that hasn’t been released yet:

Rome as a genetic melting pot: Population dynamics over 12,000 years.

Nearly 2000 years ago, Rome was the largest urban center of the ancient world and the capital of an empire with over 60 million inhabitants. Although Rome has long been a subject of archaeological and historical study, little is known about the genetic history of the Roman population. To fill this gap, we performed whole genome sequencing on 127 individuals from 29 sites in and around Rome, spanning the past 12,000 years. Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic. As Rome expanded from a small city-state to an empire controlling the entire Mediterranean, the city became a melting pot of inhabitants from across the empire, harboring diverse ancestries from the Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions. Interestingly, Rome’s population remains heterogeneous despite these major ancestry shifts through time. Our study provides a first look into the dynamic genetic history of Rome from before its founding, into the modern era.

Do Romans today look different from Italians from, say, mountain villages where there was presumably less turnover in the population than in the Big City?

Or perhaps, all the genetic mixing in Rome just led to people who look more or less like other Italians because Rome, like Italy in general, was more or less dead center in the middle of the Roman Empire. So if in Rome, Spaniards mixed with Syrians and Germans with Tunisians, they wound up with people who like Italians….

Here’s a question: how many skeletons of really famous individuals could be dug up to scan their DNA? For example, are the bodies of famous Romans like Julius Caesar and St. Peter readily findable?

Who would be first on your list? Who is famously missing? Jesus, Genghis Khan, Alexander, most pharaohs …

 
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  1. Anonymous[178] • Disclaimer says:

    The Germanic barbarian sacking of Rome was one of the best things to happen to Europe.

    Romans were about proto-globalism. Also, it was the wreckage of classical culture that made people of the West value its recovery and do fresh things with it.
    In contrast, the Byzantium civilization that preserved classical culture just grew bored with it and sparked no new ideas and expressions.

    • Agree: Hail, Desiderius
    • LOL: IHTG
  2. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    I think calling legitimate research “grave robbing” is foolish and wrong. Objects of value are not being removed for profit, no one is making money off the DNA samples. The graves are left as undisturbed as possible.

    In the 1960s and 1970s a lot of Civil War graves got robbed for the belt buckles, buttons, medallions, and rusty revolvers and swords the men were buried with and that was a different issue completely. That was grave robbing per se. A few people were caught and did serious time for it.

    Besides, according to anyone who values Jesus, you won’t find his skeleton because he was resurrected and raised up into heaven. If you do find a skeleton no true believer will accept it as him therefore. But if you did and could prove it was really him, DNA analysis should confirm that both the resurrection and the virgin birth were a fib or else you will find a truly unique set of DNA, inasmuch as he had no human sire according to scripture. In the first case, you just destroyed Christianity. In the second, you have started a new religion and a new science.

  3. BB753 says:

    A few years ago, they identified the remains of Alexander the Great’s father, Philip II of Macedonia. No DNA analysis that I’m aware of.

  4. syonredux says:

    Of course, ancient cities were population sinks…..

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @Hail
  5. Sure, Rome embraced diversity, open borders, and cheap imported labour to do the work Romans wouldn’t do, and look where it got them.

    p.s. The clowns running the shit-show called The West don’t realise it, but they’ve taken us into our own “Crisis of the Third Century” by refusing to accept the results of elections.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    , @TelfoedJohn
  6. MSG says:

    The body of Julius Caesar and others of his time and class would not be findable because they were cremated.

    I also understand that a large percentage of slaves and other lower class people in the city died off before they could leave descendants — it was an unhealthful environment, with the population replenished with importation and immigration.

    • Agree: Alden
  7. BenKenobi says:

    “I woke up in the middle of the internet;
    I had a view of the whole wide world;
    I was on an expedition, expedition Sailer;
    I was out to find a much better world;
    I’m gone away;
    Odds are not really in their favour of seein’ me home.

  8. Well, I know northern Italy is lighter skinned than southern Italy because that’s where invaders from north of the Alps. That’s one of the things the miniseries Rome got wrong; Julius Caesar was white-skinned, the rest of the characters should have been darker skinned. But HBO had it bass ackwards, as usual.

    • Replies: @Unzerker
    , @S. Anonyia
    , @T.Chris
  9. LondonBob says:

    Were slaves allowed to start families?

    • Replies: @Matthew Alexander
  10. Not entirely OT:

    Anatomical Science International: Craniofacial reconstruction of the Indus Valley Civilization individuals found at 4500-year-old Rakhigarhi cemetery. Oct 1, 2019.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12565-019-00504-3

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/in-a-first-scientists-reconstruct-faces-of-indus-valley-civilisation-people/videoshow/71523666.cms

  11. Anonymous[836] • Disclaimer says:

    Did the Roman empire collapse because, while it was founded on the foundation of blood and kinship, it slowly became a soulless, citizenist proposition nation in which the original founding stock was diluted and dispossessed, losing all sense of identification with and ownership of the nation it created? While, at the same time, the “new Romans” were just there for gibs?

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Charon
    , @ThreeCranes
  12. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:

    Jesus?

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  13. anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:

    All of the existing ancient Roman statues resemble the type of people who would gleefully kill a black child while claiming self defense.

    • Replies: @J
    , @Don't Look at Me
    , @sayless
  14. anon[957] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    certainly yes once the founding rock is gone there is nothing less but the emerging chaos and a long long silence a silence of 1000 years

  15. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:

    Personally, I would like to see as many persons as possible – both living and dead – having their DNA sequenced and the whole vast, vast record stored in a massive supercomputer somewhere. Then, I’d like to see an exceedingly power computer program sort out, with a good degree of precision, the genealogical relationships, the tangled web, that exists between all people on earth.

  16. Hodag says:

    The Soviets opened up Tamerlane’s tomb. The corpse they found did indeed have a wounded leg.

    But at almost the same time Operation Barbarossa started.

    I would not recommend doing that again.

  17. Anon[213] • Disclaimer says:

    I think that untangling Roman genetics is going to be really hard, if these researchers are honest with themselves and don’t just go for the headlines.

    Rome in the beginning was a small city surrounded by other city states that may have had different genetics. There were a few Greek city states in the Roman peninsula, to give an extreme case. Then they took over the Mediterranean region and the city became cosmopolitan.

    You’re going to need a lot of adequately dated skulls to get any statistical confidence. It seems to me what you’d want to do is look at the zillions of tombs outside the Roman city limits, which invariably have dated inscriptions and dedications to the deceased. We might know, for instance, that the inhabitant of a tomb was a silk merchant, for instance.

    But cremation was the way the Romans tended to do things once in the Republican era. On the other hand, cremation generally doesn’t reduce the thickest part of the temporal bones to ashes. Maybe the heat wreaks the DNA? At any rate, most extant Latin, by word count, is in the form of tomb inscriptions, not monestary copies of manuscripts. There are an enormous number of these tombs out there, in known locations.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @sayless
  18. Anon[213] • Disclaimer says:

    Here’s a question: how many skeletons of really famous individuals could be dug up to scan their DNA? For example, are the bodies of famous Romans like Julius Caesar and St. Peter readily findable?

    Who would be first on your list? Who is famously missing? Jesus, Genghis Khan, Alexander, most pharaohs …

    They are still looking for the tomb of Alexander. I refreshed myself on its history just the other week when an archeologist claimed to be hot on the trail.

    The most astounding thing about Alexander’s tomb is how long it lasted as a known tourist attraction after his death. Octavian saw it, and the body was certainly still around at the end of the second century A.D. during imperial visits. So that would be six centuries or so? It seems to have become more obscure a couple of centuries later, and some ninth century accounts may or may not be reliable, and a 17th century account sounds fishy to me.

    • Replies: @william munny
  19. Charon says:
    @Anonymous

    Now now….they called them “Bread and Circuses” back then, not “gibs”…
    Much more elegant, don’t you think?

    • Replies: @SFG
    , @Brutusale
  20. Altai says:

    Cities have been population sinks until very recently. It’s possible that very little of the ancestry of Rome upon it’s fall remains as the population was culled through plague and constant influxes from the countryside repopulated it.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  21. @Anon

    There are a huge number of tombs with readable inscriptions along the Appian Way outside of Rome. What are buried in them? Bodies or ashes?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Cortes
    , @LondonBob
  22. Hail says: • Website

    how many skeletons of really famous individuals could be dug up to scan their DNA? Who would be first on your list?

    Not exactly the same as a full-on DNA scan, but the website Eupedia has a lot of info on famous historical men’s y-lines.

    Napoleon Bonaparte, it was found through testing, was an E1b1b, which is probably Neolithic in origin in Europe; it is not a common male line in continental Europe (except in parts of the Balkans, notably Kosovo, and among European Jews). Then again, Napoleon was a Corsican, which is not on the continent.

    Here are some famous men who share certain major branches of the Paleolithic-European I lines (all via Eupedia):

    [MORE]

    Famous I1 individuals:
    – Alexander Hamilton
    – Andrew Jackson
    – Leo Tolstoy
    – Calvin Coolidge
    – Jimmy Carter
    – Warren Buffet
    – Bill Clinton
    – Sting
    – Snorri, 12th century Icelandic epic poet

    Famous I2a1 individuals:
    – Martin Luther (the original, not King Jr.)
    – Admiral Horthy of Hungary
    – James Monroe

    Famous I2a2 individuals:
    – the House of Hohenzollern of Prussia
    – Bill Gates
    – Mayflower leader Myles Standish
    – Davey Crockett
    – Andrew Johnson
    – Chuck Norris
    – Stephen King (the horror author)
    – Elvis Presley

  23. @Anonymous

    You will not find the skeleton of Jesus Christ anywhere, I am sure of that.

    In the three synoptic Gospels, it is clear that in the Resurrection, the old material body of Jesus, being entirely mortal, was destroyed or transmuted in a flash to something that did not exist before and does not exist on earth now, a body that could interact with the MEST world but could move through walls. Thomas was invited to probe His wounds and feel the bones, He ate and drank food and wine, but was of a different nature than regular matter.

    Jesus also raised others from the dead but they were not so transformed: Lazarus and the daughter of the leader of the synagogue where He visited, but they were simply made as before, and went on to die again at some time in what would be their future. The spiritual yet physical body of Jesus after the Resurrection, and those of believers after the return of Christ can never die.

    The question of whose DNA Christ had in his physical mortal body is an interesting one, and one we will never know for sure on this earth. I’m very familiar with the Priory of Sion, the Merovingian legend, and all that, and I am convinced it’s hooey. Many Protestants believe Jesus was married and fathered children. I don’t know one way or the other, Scripture is not explicit. Also, in contradiction to Catholicism, many Protestants maintain that Mary went on to have children with Joseph in the normal way, giving Jesus brothers and sisters. That seems more likely, but again, the scriptural evidence is not conclusive.

  24. @Anonymous

    Rubbish. Typical Gibbonesque nonsense. Byzantium innovated in literature, engineering, architecture, visual arts, music and especially the military arts.

    The Hidden Science and Tech of the Byzantine Empire

    http://nautil.us/blog/the-hidden-science-and-tech-of-the-byzantine-empire

    • Agree: sayless
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  25. Hail says: • Website
    @donvonburg

    Many Protestants believe Jesus was married and fathered children.

    Which Protestants would those be? And on what basis? I’ve ever heard of this as such (as a “belief,” vs. an “open to possibiltiy”).

    • Replies: @Alden
  26. Hail says: • Website
    @syonredux

    As are today’s cities.

  27. @Anon

    I think I recall Greg Cochran jokingly suggesting that the real reason the US invaded Iraq/Afghanistan was to find Alexander’s body to clone him, because the Chinese already have Genghis. At least that explanation would make sense.

  28. Protestants that preached in churches, mostly independent and nondenominational, I’ve been in.
    As I remember their thinking was that to have the title “Rabbi”, or teacher, a man had to be married.
    I know that this is not a core doctrine in Modern Judaism today, certainly not in mainstream American Judaism. I know single rabbis, but they are officially “looking for Miss Jewish Right”, as it were, and apparently most do marry eventually.

    But Modern Judaism is a different thing in many core aspects to what was done before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Then, a rabbi may well have had to be married.

    There may and probably are more knowledgeable people than I reading this, so please feel free to chime in as long as your answers are consonant with the Bible. What some Pope, Prophet Revelator and Seer, or what have you thinks is not germane at all.

    • Replies: @SFG
    , @J
    , @Keypusher
    , @Wency
  29. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @Hail

    Although haplogroup I1 is sometimes referred to as a “paleolithic European” haplogroup since it branched off of I, which is of West Asian origin (like its sister J), the most recent research indicates that it only mutated around 5000 years ago. So I1 is actually a neolithic European haplogroup. It has never been found in a Paleolithic specimen, but was present in Neolithic farmers in central Europe.

    One interesting thing about Elvis Presley is that he also carried the Native American mtDNA haplogroup B, making him a direct descendant North American aboriginals.

    https://dnaconsultants.com/news/elvis-dna-revealed-in-new-book/

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
    , @peterike
  30. Hodag says:

    The most obvious would be Qin Shi Huang. I read about the terra cotta army in National Geographic as a boy and they still have not opened up the damn thing.

    Open it, I want to see. But the atheist CCP is too chicken, afraid of ghosts and curses. But if the first emperor had a different haplogroup than is common in Han nowadays….ooh boy. Juicy drama.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
    • Replies: @Tlotsi
  31. Bill P says:

    Back in the early 90s I met some Roman girls at Café Paradiso in Seattle. They were dark, exotic, sophisticated and… very Roman (to me). A lot of Europeans were touring around the west coast at the time. Fabio was an early example. He’s since settled in SW Washington state, where he lives like a rich, fabulous redneck.

    What can I say about Romans? I first visited Rome when I was 11. The girls I met when I was maybe 18 or 19 made more of an impression on me. They insisted that everybody knows the pope has a mistress, or several. The one I remember best was tall and elegant and had a real Roman nose. She made me feel like a hick. For some reason I remember her wearing flowing clothes like a proper Roman lady, which is probably my brain confabulating things. But maybe not.

    In any event. these ladies reinforced the idea in my mind that Romans are special, elegant and mysterious. For some reason I don’t get that from New Yorkers.

    • Replies: @Flip
    , @Alden
  32. guest says:

    Why do we have three Napoleon penises and zero Jesus bones? Because he ascended to the heavens, that’s why.

  33. Frogger says:

    Are you trying to get Serpentor? Because this is how you get Serpentor!
    (Only 80s kids will get this.)

  34. SFG says:
    @Charon

    You’re quoting Juvenal, so you’d have to find a catchy right-leaning satirist today. But it’s a different era, of course.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    , @Kratoklastes
  35. SFG says:
    @donvonburg

    The Orthodox most definitely want to get married. Rabbis are supposed to get married (and pump out kids).

    The further you go to towards the Reform/Reconstructionist (think ‘Unitarian’/blue-haired SJW) end of the spectrum, the more that weakens, of course.

    There was a joke that goes ‘at an Orthodox wedding, the bride’s mom is pregnant, at a Conservative wedding, the bride is pregnant, at a Reform wedding, the rabbi is pregnant, and at a Reconstructionist wedding, the rabbi and her wife are pregnant’.

  36. Flip says:
    @Bill P

    When I was in Rome I thought everybody looked Jewish.

  37. Flip says:
    @Hail

    “Professor Lucotte tested the Y-DNA of Napoleon I, Napoleon III and their descendants, and was able to confirm that Napoleon III was not the biological nephew of the first Emperor of the French.”

  38. Yngvar says:

    Who would be first on your list?

    Mohammed, the so-called prophet, have a known grave. After ripping out the molar might as well do a facial reconstruction of the fellow.

  39. Brutusale says:
    @Charon

    While we have WIC and taxpayer-funded sports stadiums.

    How little things change.

    • Agree: HammerJack
  40. nebulafox says:
    @Anonymous

    They progessed so much, they forgot how to read and write for 700 years!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @nymom
  41. Unzerker says:

    Cities back in the day were basically population sinks that needed a constant flow of new humans to sustain its size. When you add to that the occasional plague and razing by barbarians, I wouldn’t expect a whole lot of evidence of its multi-ethnic past in today’s Romans.

  42. dearieme says:
    @donvonburg

    In the three synoptic Gospels, it is clear that in the Resurrection, …

    Not in Mark: the account of the resurrection was added later by somebody else. Ditto the claim at the beginning that J was the Son of God.

    They did like a bit of invention and forgery, those early Christians.

    Nobody knows who “Mark” was or what his evidence was, but he was undoubtedly one author, his gospel being polluted only by those two bits of fakery.

    • Replies: @eugyppius
  43. Unzerker says:
    @Redneck farmer

    Well, I know northern Italy is lighter skinned than southern Italy because that’s where invaders from north of the Alps.

    The Celts have their origin in the Alps. Northern Italy, being a short walk down the Alpine mountains, was naturally a Celtic region.

    • Replies: @ia
  44. Polynikes says:
    @The Alarmist

    Similarly if in two thousand years they did up a bunch of 21 century graves in NYC will they find “Americans” and conclude we were always a “melting pot?”

    I’m more interested in who the actual Romans were—the that built the empire—than who eventually ended up there. I think it’s been well established that it became a cosmopolitan center by the end. That tells us little except who let the place fall.

  45. J says: • Website
    @anonymous

    They were serious, non-smiling people, full of gravitas. That is the way they wanted to be seen by their descendants. Find me a pic of Lincoln or Washington or Bismark – smiling.

  46. Ano says:

    …famously missing…

    There are plenty of Mafia graves out there (somewhere) for grave-robbers to find.

    True, Jimmy Hofffa’s body isn’t ‘readily findable’.
    You probably have to scan fishes to find his DNA anyway.

  47. J says: • Website
    @donvonburg

    Definitely, in times of Jesus, everybody was married and having children. This Jewish custom very much surprised and disgusted the Greeks, who practiced infanticide. The Essene sect was the only known exception, and even that is not sure. Jesus, as a popular teacher and rebel from the Galilea, most probably had a normal family. The silence of his contemporaries ion this point proves his normality. Today, Orthodox males and females are normally married; however, childlessness is common and does not cause open criticism.

    • Replies: @Keypusher
  48. Anon[213] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    There are a huge number of tombs with readable inscriptions along the Appian Way outside of Rome. What are buried in them? Bodies or ashes?

    Wikipedia says that burial gave way to cremation in the mid-to-late Republic, into the first century or so of the Empire, and then burial reasserted itself after that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_funerary_practices#Disposal_of_the_body

    But even cremation might leave enough for a David Reich-level lab to tease out some DNA. In Japan cremation is almost universal, but, having personally participated as a family member in a funeral, I learned that cremation leaves quite a few bones, unless you really nuke the body for days. Part of the ceremony involves the family members sifting through the ashes and pulling out bones (using chopsticks) and identifying them, using the medical name for the bones. They are placed in an urn, and then the ashes are swept into the urn and it is sealed. I think the purpose of this is to impress upon the survivors the true finality of the situation. (Merely two hours before the family members would have been rubbing the face of the body in an open coffin, another “This is really it” moment.)

    I bet that the inner ear bone chunk that Reich’s lab uses is one of the uncremated pieces. The question is whether an hour in a furnace damages the DNA within remaining bone pieces.

    Back to Japan: Recently the pet boom has created a pet cremation industry. And pet owners demand that there be visible bones remaining even for small animals. You can imagine how delicate it must be to cremate a parakeet leaving bones in the ashes. I wouldn’t be surprised if the cremation services have a jar of bones on the shelf to use to juice the results if they cremate for a little too long.

  49. Most important is to sequence whatever samples are left from Athen’s golden age. Those were some serious world-beaters, and it would be interesting to see what made them tick.

    Anyone who paid attention to history class already knows that Romans brought back slaves by the millions to farm and serve. It’s nice to see that the DNA confirms that. It would be interesting to know how long the miscegenation took to become common.

    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @Jack
    , @Carol
  50. GP100 says:

    Come on Steve, that is a bad troll with Jesus.

    As St. Paul wrote, “But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead.”

    Peter’s bones are in the cathedral bearing his name. I don’t think that even Frank the Hippy Pope is going to let anyone disturb them.

  51. @Redneck farmer

    The guy who played Julius Caesar was Irish & looked fine. And the woman who played Atia looked Italian enough, as did the guy playing Brutus. Cleopatra & Antony looked their parts as well. The rest of the cast was a bit too blond but it wasn’t too jarring and they even said in dialogue at some point that the main (& palest) character looked like a Gaul to kind of explain it away. I don’t think they were deliberate about casting for certain “looks” – they just chose various actors who could play the part.

    One thing that was kind of funny was that an Italian woman (as far as I know the only actual Italian on the show) played a German slave girl.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
  52. gwood says:

    Scientists need to quit screwing around with human DNA and concentrate on the important stuff. Cloning mammoths and saber-tooth tigers.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    , @Anon
  53. What’s the social strata of the individuals studied? Ancient Rome didn’t allow marriage between classes, that was part of the definition of the classes. Outside the orders breeding would have been indiscriminate. Meaning the genetic histories of the major families might have been radically different than what’s seen in these bones.

  54. Dutch Boy says:

    Julius Caesar was indeed cremated but St. Peter’s bones are under the eponymous church:

    • Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros
  55. “So if in Rome, Spaniards mixed with Syrians and Germans with Tunisians, they wound up with people who like Italians….”

    Misprint for “look like”? Or were the offspring of Teutons and Tunisians fond of autochthonous Italians?

  56. Jack says:
    @Chief Seattle

    Brought back from where? Veii, Samnia, Capua, Sardinia, Cisalpine Gaul? Brought to where? It’s a long walk from the Alps to Rome, even longer from Britannia or Egypt. Did they eat along the way; maybe bring a giant wagon train with them? Did they free the Egyptian slaves when they beat Cleopatra or just replace the ruling class and leave the slaves there to slave away like they had done for a couple thousand years under the Pharaohs and the Ptolomeys?

    • Replies: @BB753
    , @Chief Seattle
    , @Yngvar
  57. @Altai

    Still are. Cities are heat islands for the Poz.

  58. ic1000 says:
    @Anonymous

    I think calling legitimate research “grave robbing” is foolish and wrong. Objects of value are not being removed for profit, no one is making money off the DNA samples. The graves are left as undisturbed as possible.

    Good point. In channeling the sentiment of Amerind tribes, Steve is obviously aiming to twit self-righteous scientists (if any), and their fans.

    I can speak with authority to the latter, as I’m fascinated by the work that David Reich, Svante Pääbo, et al. are doing, and I find the phrase discomfiting.

  59. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    If you are a believer, then it’s “true” that the body of Christ ascended to Heaven. (In Yiddish, if some one tells you a tall tale and you want to call bullshit on him, you reply “Nisht geshtoygn un nisht gefloygn” which means “[he] did not climb and [he] did not fly” in reference to you know who.)

    BUT, as a Jewish boy, there is one part of Jesus that was removed when he was 8 days old and which remained on earth and from which DNA could be extracted. At one time in Europe there were a number of churches that all claimed to have the relic of the Holy Foreskin but I believe that they all disappeared in the French Revolution.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce

    Judea was a wreck after the Jewish revolts against the Romans and no one was much interested in objects associated with the life of Jesus for several hundred years. But in the 4th century, Constantine’s mother took a trip to Palestine and the locals suddenly “found” all sorts of stuff to sell her – pieces of the True Cross, etc. And then when the Crusaders came, even more even though it had been 1,000 years. Supply expands to fit the demand.

    I could see a National Treasure type movie being made about the hunt for the Holy Foreskin so that it could be DNA tested and we could find out if Jesus was really black. (Spoiler alert – he is.)

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  60. Cities in antiquity and the Middle Ages were population sinks, Rome’s population declined from ~250,000 to ~75,000 after the fall of the Empire, and that population suffered attrition and replacement from the countryside. Cochran has talked about this:

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2016/07/22/still-italian/

    • Replies: @gcochran
  61. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Agathoklis

    Yer Greek, so you stick up for Byzan. But look at Mosaic art. It’s bathroom tile art.

  62. Empire entails diversity, and equal treatment of all subjects (except the imperial ruling class) whether located in the initial homeland or in the provinces. This equal treatment however means citizens of the homeland will lose their special status, and be treated no better than foreigners and immigrants.

    So, all you guys proud our your American empire, watch it play out before your eyes, as you are relegated to second class status and replaced.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  63. When Rome stopped being diverse it fell. Hard.

    OT: A free ”Webinar” ….

    Talent Acquisition Strategy: Start with an Inclusive Culture

    https://ccaps.umn.edu/professional-development-short-courses/professional-development-webinars

  64. @Sam Coulton

    Elvis was Betty Warren’s dad?

  65. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:

    I am suspicious that the people who did this study were liberals who cherry-picked grave sites already knowing what they’d find. If you pick later-era graves, which any archaeologist can figure out even before they dig, in areas known to be inhabited by outsiders,you can create ‘population replacement’ out of almost nothing. Before you even hit the bones, grave artifacts will tell the ethnicity of the group you’re digging up. For example, if you sample sites just outside of Rome from the 400 AD era where Alaric the Goth was encamped with his army, picking graves of soldiers who died of disease in a two-week period, well, you’ll get a lot of skewed data. Or you pick grave sites right near the harbor, where sailors from other countries were likely to stay while whoring and boozing it up. Then the libtard scientist says, There! You see? Total population replacement is normal and natural, and everybody ought to want it including us! So there!

    The whole rationale behind this study is suspicious, and the data set is very, very easy to manipulate. Archaeologists have been doing work around Rome for 100 years, and the ethnicity of most of its grave sites is already well-known and and the sample data can be cherry-picked. Trust me, they weren’t picking these sites at random.

    The vast majority of Romans were descendants of the original Latin population. Even if Rome were depopulated by epidemics, it really only takes a couple of generations to repopulate a city if everyone has at least 3-4 kids in the next generation instead of 2. Mathematically speaking, repopulation can occur incredibly fast. India had around 400 million people the year it became an independent state. 3 generations later, it has a billion. It really doesn’t take very long for a native population to rapidly increase its numbers to absurd proportions. The average person does not grasp the mathematics of this intuitively, so they can be easily deceived by fanatical liberal scientists who have an agenda to push.

  66. @Hail

    Presley’s Y-line is intriguing for another reason– it hadn’t been Presley for long. His grandfather was one of ten illegitimate siblings (with different fathers, probably) who carried their mother’s surname.

    These Presleys were originally Presslars. Elvis and Jimmy Carter both descend from Valentin, the first Presslar in America.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    , @Hail
  67. istevefan says:
    @Anonymous

    I think calling legitimate research “grave robbing” is foolish and wrong. Objects of value are not being removed for profit, no one is making money off the DNA samples.

    Profit is not the only thing that is immoral. Trying to use so called scientific findings to help displace the current peoples of Europe is even more immoral than profit. For example, scientists publicly declared that Cheddar Man had black skin when they were not 100 percent sure of this assertion. It was done to strengthen the position of those who wish to replace the current people of the UK with non-Europeans.

    I have not read the details on this particular research project about Roman demographics. However, my BS detector goes off whenever I see scientists arguing that Europe was diverse or multicultural in the past. Though that is probably somewhat true, it is most likely being done to help facilitate today’s massive demographic change occurring throughout the European world.

    I don’t mind discovering facts about the past. But using those facts to push for and justify the displacement of modern Europeans is wrong.

    • Replies: @ic1000
  68. Bruno says:

    Adding to -40k Hunter-gatheres, Farmers in -10k nd Metal age invaders (Aryan or Yamnaya) around -3500 is what you get everywhere in Europe.

    Abstract should focus on what’s specific to Rome if any.

  69. Tenney Frank was all over this:

    Race Mixture in the Roman Empire [PDF]

    https://dbcs.rutgers.edu/all-scholars/8710-frank-tenney

    He wrote periodically for the American Historical Review, including a paper on the demise of the various ancient Italian peoples that comprised the Roman ethnicity in Julius Caesar’s day. Arguing that Roman expansion brought in masses of foreign peoples and slaves that over time changed the ethnic make-up of the Roman populace and contributed to the empire’s ruin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenney_Frank

    • Replies: @T.Chris
  70. Tlotsi says:
    @donvonburg

    Everybody knows that Jesus was a Scotsman.

    • LOL: jim jones
  71. JimB says:

    Who is famously missing? Jesus…?

    The New Testament has an explanation for that. And you won’t find his mother’s DNA, either.

  72. Tlotsi says:
    @Hodag

    Won’t it be hilarious if he turns out to have red hair and round eyes?

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
  73. @SFG

    Forget about it, Jake: it’s circenses.

  74. @nebulafox

    They progessed so much, they forgot how to read and write for 700 years!

  75. Keypusher says:
    @donvonburg

    There were celibate priests in first-century Palestine, viz. the Essenes.

    General observation: claims like “they called him rabbi, therefore he was married” about someone who lived 2,000 years ago in an obscure corner of the Roman Empire bespeak a ludicrous amount of confidence in what we can really know about the distant past (IMO). Particularly when, as with Jesus, you have nothing else to support the idea that he was married.

  76. Carol says:
    @Chief Seattle

    All conquerers brought back slaves. That was the point. Who in his right mind wants to work farms and dig ditches in the hot Med sun?

  77. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Posts such as this one are the reason we need a “Crackhead:” button.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  78. Anonymous[128] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    We can say that after the Middle Ages, Europe became better than in the Classical Age. But calling “Dark Ages” is not unsubstantiated. The gothic aesthetic is not enough to erase all the backwardness of that era, embedded with ignorance and religious superstitions. Furthermore, much of the better from the Middle Ages comes from the end of that period.

  79. Keypusher says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Ok, and those were built how long after the Empire fell?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  80. peterike says:
    @Sam Coulton

    One interesting thing about Elvis Presley is that he also carried the Native American mtDNA haplogroup B, making him a direct descendant North American aboriginals.

    So he’s related to Elizabeth Warren then. She should make more of this amazing coincidence.

  81. nebulafox says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Beautiful toys, but they could have been built without relative literacy, demographics, economic progress, quality of life for the average human being, and general intellectual output being reversed from 500-1000 AD. It’s like comparing Dark Ages Greece to the Bronze Age palaces, let alone the classical and Hellenistic periods. A lot of this wasn’t fault of the people living at the time: who could have predicted bubonic plague or ecological disasters? It doesn’t change the fact that the Dark Ages sucked, and civilizational collapse wasn’t inevitable or preordained.

    • Replies: @JP
  82. Keypusher says:

    Oh, as for people I’d like to see sequenced, Cleopatra seems like an obvious pick, given the recent controversy over casting her.

    • Replies: @Bubba
  83. JP says:
    @nebulafox

    Europe’s decline started during the later Roman empire, it’s why the empire fell. Quality of life improved drastically under Theodoric the Goth, then fell again from the invasion of Belisarius. Italy’s population fell most dramatically during the brief Byzantine rule.

    • Replies: @Keypusher
  84. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    > (In Yiddish, if some one tells you a tall tale and you want to call bullshit on him, you reply “Nisht geshtoygn un nisht gefloygn” which means “[he] did not climb and [he] did not fly” in reference to you know who.)

    It’s no less of a tall tale than believing that Yahweh was anything but another polytheistic Semitic deity until the Assyrian siege failed, or that another “he” parted the sea a la Achilles taking on Scamander.

    The Iliad is actually a neat comparison here: you have the kernel of a mysterious real event that was passed down over the centuries orally, changing at every turn, until it was written down. Did the story of Egyptian slavery reflect the Egyptian influence over Canaan?

    >Judea was a wreck after the Jewish revolts against the Romans and no one was much interested in objects associated with the life of Jesus for several hundred years. But in the 4th century, Constantine’s mother took a trip to Palestine and the locals suddenly “found” all sorts of stuff to sell her – pieces of the True Cross, etc. And then when the Crusaders came, even more even though it had been 1,000 years. Supply expands to fit the demand.

    If it wasn’t Christianity, it would have been another mystery religion, and probably a relatively monotheistic one: the old pagan cults simply had no hope of competing with them on a whole number of levels. Even before the Crisis of the Third Century, broader historical-cultural forces related to the rise of great consolidated empires were at work. One of the big pieces of evidence here was that the same process of religious consolidation was taking place in Sassanid Persia as well as Rome.

    What wasn’t inevitable was that something out of the Jewish cultural matrix would have been that mystery religion: it could have been something out of the Iranian one, like Manichaeism. Christianity had a number of advantages over its counterparts, but in my view, it wasn’t preordained. (Naturally, Christians would disagree here.) It’s tempting to speculate on what the fate of Judaism would have been had Christianity not been adopted. Rabbinical Judaism as we know it was already in the works-that was a fait accompli after the sack of Jerusalem-but would it have existed as a distinct, parallel culture in quite the same fashion?

  85. Wency says:
    @donvonburg

    I’ve been going to (conservative) Protestant Churches of various denominations my entire life, and I’m quite sure the large majority of believers would regard the idea that Jesus fathered children to be heresy.

    The idea that Mary and Joseph failed to consummate their marriage is pretty old, and I think early Protestant leaders often subscribed to it (in contradiction of their own principle of sola scriptura), but contemporary Protestants generally hold to sola scriptura and find the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity to be bizarre (as do I). Is there supposed to be a lesson that it’s good and right to not consummate one’s marriage?

    It’s somewhat debatable whether Jesus’ “brothers” were his (half) brothers or some more distant relation, but Protestants generally go with the obvious and natural reading that they are Joseph and Mary’s children.

    • Replies: @Hail
  86. nebulafox says:
    @Anon

    A major difference between the Germanic takeover of Italy/Spain/Gaul and the Arab takeover of Syria/Egypt/Palestine a couple of centuries later was that in the case of the former, the conquerors adopted the religion of their subjects and culturally blended in with them. So, I’d suspect that most of the Italians remained basically Etruscan/Latin in character, as they’d always been. Maybe you had some infusion of Gothic and Lombard blood in the north-which actually is pretty interesting, because anyone who has visited Italy will comment on the differences between north and south-but on the whole, they got absorbed.

    That’s normally what happens when militarily superior but culturally inferior barbarians hijack an empire. The Mongols are probably the biggest historical example of this, from the Persianate Islamic Timurlane to the Chinese Kublai Khan. They conquered nearly the whole world, but left few traces of their native culture on those they conquered: left plenty of other-very brutal-scars, but nobody in the more advanced cultures could relate to their primitive worship of their alien sky deity.

    The Arabs are the big outlier: the local Roman population became Arabized and Islamized. Why this is the case is interesting to contemplate? The invention of Islam as a wholly distinct religion and cultural identity in the century after the conquests played a part, but if that was the whole story, the recently converted Zoroastrian Persians would have become Arabs, too. They adopted Arab names and the Arab religion, but they remained distinctly Persian, so Islam wasn’t the sole factor at work in Syria and Egypt.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Marko
  87. @donvonburg

    If they want to sequence Christ’s DNA they will have to go to the tomb in Pakistan where he was buried.
    Of course, Muslims put their own tomb there in their usual fashion.
    This is in the Kashmir, where there are still stories of Issa.
    How do we account for this?
    Jesus spent his teen years and into his late 20’s learning many things in Northern India/Pakistan, including medicine.
    He completed his mission in Palestine and used ‘mad honey’ as a ploy to appear to asphyxiate during his crucifixion. If not for this he would have have had his legs broken or been lanced in the ribs. Crucifixion was not a quick death. The use of mad honey is well known. Proper dosing will mimic death.

  88. Anonymous[536] • Disclaimer says:

    Off topic, white cornerback sighting:

    http://www.espn.com/video/clip/clip?id=27885872

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  89. ic1000 says:
    @istevefan

    >For example, scientists publicly declared that Cheddar Man had black skin when they were not 100 percent sure of this assertion. It was done to strengthen the position of those who wish to replace the current people of the UK with non-Europeans.

    Razib discussed pigmentation findings when the paper came out.

    Analysis of relevant alleles showed that Cheddar Man’s skin was probably darker than that of the median Englishman today. Was it ‘black’? Probably not. And (as you know), dusky skin tone does not imply high relatedness to the Sub-Saharan African populations of then or now. “Black” Papua New Guinean people are about as unrelated to black SSAs as can be.

    Of course, to a lefty journalist with a hammer, every ancient genome looks like a nail.

  90. @Anonymous

    “Jesus, you won’t find his skeleton because he was resurrected and raised up into heaven.”

    Look, I’m a lapsed Christian who has no interest in denigrating the people who remain faithful. However, your statement that I excerpted above is the primary reason why I can’t buy into the Christos mythos. The logic of the resurrection, even by the standards of supernaturalism, is faulty. Why would God bring flesh and blood into Heaven, which is a spiritual realm? Wouldn’t God just harvest the soul and leave the flesh to the Earth? The story of Jesus Christ would never make it out of coverage.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  91. Jack D says:

    Monotheism was going to win in the end because it makes sense – in the end every group or nation has one guy (or gal) who is #1 – the king or the sultan or the president, etc. If you weren’t going to end up with 1 god you were at least going to end up with 1 boss god that all the other gods report to.

    Islam and Judaism stick with a clear one and one only (there are guys that have God’s direct dial phone # but they are not gods themselves) but Christianity seems to have 3 (or at least 3 sides to the same one, which sounds a lot like 3 to me – if there is 1 Christian god then he is his own father). I can understand who the biblical God and Jesus are supposed to be but I could never understand the #3 guy (the Holy Ghost) and how he is different from #1 or 2.

  92. So Unz.com now has Google Ads … google now recording your every move…

    Anyway, the DNA from the fossilised remains of the infant Christ would be interesting to analyse:

  93. @Tlotsi

    Hooded eyes usually accompany red hair.

    • Replies: @Hodag
  94. @The Alarmist

    Open borders in one state might have created the Crisis of the Third Century, but when the whole West is open … that’s the Crisis of the Third Millenium.

  95. ricpic says:

    So with all that diversity shouldn’t Rome have gone on to ever greater glory?

  96. @Jack D

    “Monotheism was going to win in the end because it makes sense”

    Agreed. I’m not religious at all but I still except the presence of the Divine, the Creator-Destroyer, the Universal Mind. So while monotheism hits the sweet spot, polytheism makes for better stories.

    “but I could never understand the #3 guy (the Holy Ghost) and how he is different from #1 or 2.”

    Yeah, it makes no sense. This is why I’m beginning to believe Christianity was created by the Babylonian clique to pacify the pagan tribes of Europe. Ending on a lighter note: I’m glad grave-robbers are finally getting the respect they deserve. We, er, they do the work normies refuse to do.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  97. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    E1b1b is generally a Middle Eastern or African haplogroup.

    Interestingly, one of Napoleon’s paternal ancestors in the 16th century, Francesco Bonaparte, was a soldier or mercenary serving the Duke of Milan and was officially known as “the Moor”. It’s been debated whether this was merely a nickname alluding to Francesco’s complexion, or if Francesco did indeed have a Moorish background. Napoleon’s E1b1b haplogroup suggests it’s quite plausible that Francesco had a Moorish background.

    • Replies: @Hail
  98. BB753 says:
    @Jack

    Most slaves were war booty. For instance, Julius Caesar made a fortune selling thousands of Gauls and Germans after his campaigns. It is also estimated that his legions killed over a million Gauls. The man was bright but ruthless. His self-serving account of the conquest of Gaul, Commentaries on the Gallic War, is fascinating.

    • Replies: @Marko
    , @keypusher
    , @Sam Coulton
  99. If we credit the observations of Juvenal, Rome was a ‘melting pot’ by the early second century AD. In his third satire he remarks

    “…Non possum ferre Quirites
    Græcam urbem, quamvis quota portio fæcis Achææ.
    Iam pridem Syrus in Tyberim defluxit Orontes,
    Et linguam, et mores, et cum tibicine chordas
    Obliquis, necnon gentilia tympana secum
    Vexit, et ad circem iussas prostrare puellas.”

    (I cannot bear, fellow citizens
    A Greek city, but how much of it is even Greek –
    For some time now the Syrian Orontes has been emptying into the Tiber.
    Along with its language, and customs, and its flutes and slant-strung
    Instruments, not to mention the annoying drum,
    And causes its girls to prostitute themselves at the Circus.)

    Later, he complains

    “Usque adeo nihil est, quod nostra infantia cœlum
    Hausit Auentini bacca nutrita Sabina?”

    (Is it worth nothing that, from my infancy,
    I breathed the Aventine air and was fed on the Sabine berry?)

    As a Roman of historic stock, he looked upon the Roman population of his time much as an American descended from colonial settlers must view the inhabitants of New York or Los Angeles.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  100. Anonymous[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Perhaps the Arabic language was a factor in making the takeover more apparent culturally in North Africa. Heck, even here, you can see differences in the acceptance by the Berbers, versus coastal peoples.

  101. @Anonymous

    But the Air Force defensive back who ran back the interception 92 yards, Milton Bugg III, looks like he’s about 1/8th black, 7/8ths Northern European:

    https://www.ncsasports.org/football-recruiting/arizona/higley/williams-field-high-school/milton-bugg-iii

  102. indocon says:

    Wonder what Illhan Omar and her new white boy friend will produce
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7588845/Ilhan-Omar-lives-brazen-double-life-married-campaign-aide.html

    The look on that boyfriends’s old hag white ex wife is something.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  103. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    I believe on a deeper level, it fulfilled the demands of a new stage in human development far better than the pagan cults ever could. To draw a comparison, Rome’s own native religion was a State Religion personified. Men like Cicero and Augustus defended it on no higher grounds than it was conducive to public order and Roman-defined morality. “Religion” didn’t mean the same thing to them as it did to, say, the Jews.

    Cults of the Greco-Roman city-state didn’t ask you the serious internal questions, because it was a religion of public affairs and ritual, nothing deeper. It didn’t provide a satisfying moral fabric to people living under an empire, not a city-state: this was a process already in motion well before the Romans came to the Hellenistic world. Nor could the degree of social altruism and personal code-particularly concerning people that pagan society openly didn’t care about, aka, most of the population-hope to compete with the mystery religions.

    Julian the Apostate noted the latter factor, but the inherently disorganized nature of paganism meant that his mission was not hopeless (Rome was far from uniformly Christianized at that point), but rather Quixotic. But this all didn’t mean that uniform, state-sponsored monotheism itself was inevitable. Just look at India, where Muslim conquerors ended up converting a lot of people, but native Hinduism survived. There was something going on in that time period in classical antiquity around the Mediterranean basin and the Middle East specifically.

    >Islam and Judaism stick with a clear one and one only (there are guys that have God’s direct dial phone # but they are not gods themselves) but Christianity seems to have 3 (or at least 3 sides to the same one, which sounds a lot like 3 to me – if there is 1 Christian god then he is his own father). I can understand who the biblical God and Jesus are supposed to be but I could never understand the #3 guy (the Holy Ghost) and how he is different from #1 or 2.

    What strikes me about that is how irrepressibly… Greek it all was. Demigods show up all the time: Heracles, Theseus, Perseus, those guys.

    As a child, the idea of the Trinity struck me as heresy because, well, if you took the Ten Commandments literally… I was so bothered by this that I ended up hammering my own little undeveloped theological system in which God was higher and he decided to incarnate himself in a couple of lower forms. It was basically Arianism.

    I didn’t reject Christianity, though. I was a very shy, churchmouse character who obeyed orders compulsively and never really thought to do otherwise: I wasn’t un-curious, per se, but I wouldn’t go “digging” for questions like a lot of kids would unless someone pointed out that I could or should, I guess. So I didn’t really consciously think about the contradiction with reciting the Nicene Creed: that was just the social protocol that I had to obey, no different from the silly stuff I needed to do in school. Long story short: I just didn’t think all that much about it, and I suspect for most people (regardless of their religion-including lack of religion now that it has been mainstreamized), that’s the way it always is. And that’s fine, really. I think it’d be a psychopathic world if everybody was obsessed with logical consistency and precision constantly.

    I don’t know what I would have said if someone asked me what I really believed. Probably would have been taken aback that someone was asking me that anyway.

  104. Cortes says:
    @Steve Sailer

    They all have the same name…

    Spartacus.

  105. nebulafox says:
    @SunBakedSuburb

    What really turned Christianity into the leading mystery religion of the Roman Empire was the Crisis of the Third Century. Very. Very. Bad. Times. It’s deeply illuminating that the movement that would eventually become Islam was forged under very similarly apocalyptic circumstances in the 7th Century AD Middle East. At a time where people were really thinking about the end, people looked for more satisfying answers about why this was all happening and what was going to happen to them. This was something that was developing before, as I pointed out-just look at the different treatment of the afterlife in the Aeneid, compared to the Homeric epics-but the Crisis years accelerated that. The social factor just added onto this: the kind of pagans who adopted the faith (one of the big factors that got Christianity into the saddle was that it was an urbanized bourgeois faith, not a rural peasant one) were often deeply impressed with Christian morality and social altruism along with the theological arguments.

    It’s worth noting that in the Augustan years, there were a fair amount of pagans who tried Judaism out-before the Romans attempted to exterminate it-for some of the same reasons. People were impressed with the Jewish insistence on genuine morality (particularly sexual) and social institutions. But it never achieved critical mass due to the inherently tribal nature of the Jewish faith.

    I wonder: if the united forces of Economic Right and Social Left end up achieving the worse case scenario and trigger a new Dark Ages, what will be the faith that ordinary people find?

  106. nebulafox says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    What would he have made of Elagabalus? Him, his black rock, and his remarkably “2019” take on the number of sexes out there?

    >Perhaps the Arabic language was a factor in making the takeover more apparent culturally in North Africa. Heck, even here, you can see differences in the acceptance by the Berbers, versus coastal peoples.

    Berbers had a reputation for going their own radical way-violently-under Christianity. This did not change with Islam. Berbers were as well represented with the Kharijites as much as they were with the Donatists.

    Cultural assimilation took far longer here than further east, and it never erased Berber characteristics to the same degree as, say, Syriac.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
  107. @Dutch Boy

    That’s a famous Roman whose DNA is not needed. Thanks to inbreeding, his is essentially identical to that of another famous personality, Jared Kushner.

  108. @Anon

    “The vast majority of Romans were descendants of the original Latin population.”

    At what time? By 200 BC over a third of Romans buried near the city had grown up outside of Rome. The next century would have seen roughly similar proportions, most likely. A century of that and interbreeding and you’ve got a lot of genetic turnover.

    • Replies: @Marko
  109. @Anonymous

    There are people making money out of this DNA. The “scientists” who did it are not volunteers, nor terribly interested in working a decent job. There is no new knowledge from this study. A stray dog could have produced it, if it had the access to the resources.

    There’s of course the admin at the uni, and the government bureaucrats charging it on your tax. Neither of these would have a “job”, weren’t for such make-belief jobs.

    Also, in these studies, the new yuuge elephant in the room is the “services” provider. Many of the more recent studies use expensive high-throughput methods for the sake of using them. The Jewoogle woman who runs 23andMe is already proficient at milking “research” funds. Further upstream, the companies who make these machines need users in order to sell more machines.

    Again, this is a study where simpler methods are used, and the bill is covered by the Italian government. Anyone watched Salvini yesterday, moaning about poor Italian diaspora?

  110. gcochran says:
    @Alexander Turok

    At the low point, probably << 30,000. I've seen estimates under 10,000.

  111. @SunBakedSuburb

    The logic of the resurrection, even by the standards of supernaturalism, is faulty. Why would God bring flesh and blood into Heaven, which is a spiritual realm?

    No, your logic is faulty, as are your terms; and St. Thomas actually answered this question more than 700 years ago, building upon the answer given by St. Augustine 800 years before that; which answers you, being completely unaware of, goes to show that your understanding of the faith you apostatized from is as pathetic as everyone else around here’s is (with the exception of a few doughty souls like Old Palo Altan, Jake, and fitzhamilton).

    Heaven is not “a spiritual realm.” It is a definite location existing, as St. Thomas says using the Scholastic technical terminology, in “an unconfined space,” by which he meant a space not in inertial communication with the rest of the material universe. Heaven, in the Ptolemaic cosmos, exists beyond the sphere of the fixed stars and cannot be “moved” (i.e. causally affected by) that which occurs in the spheres below it. The fact that the Ptolemaic cosmology is not widely used anymore does not detract from the essence of this description, which is namely that heaven is above the “confined” space of the causally connected and thermodynamically regulated matter which has already been “signed with quantity” and must therefore suffer accidental change. Heavenly space is primordial, protean, aveternal, not subject to entropy, and exists, among other things, to support the bodies of resurrected beings. Thus, there is no reason to doubt that the Ascension of Christ, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the apotheosis of various Old and New Testament persons refer to bodies actually translated to this location.

    Wouldn’t God just harvest the soul and leave the flesh to the Earth?

    No, because the soul without the body is incomplete. The man is the composite of body and soul, matter and form. The entire purpose of the soul is to inform the body; to suggest that the soul can be saved without the body of which it is the form being resurrected, is to speak nonsense. That would be equivalent to saying that eternal beatitude consists in maintaining a will to exist that never achieves existence, a forever frustrated cause that never achieves an effect. A mere proper understanding of the terms involved necessitates the entailment that if man does indeed have an immortal soul, then he must and will have a resurrected body.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  112. Anti-HBD says:

    Surprised they do not mention any Sub-Saharan gene flow actually.

  113. Marko says:
    @nebulafox

    There is no dramatic phenotypical difference between mainland north and mainland Southern italians. When people talk about these barbarian invasions. These were military occupations not colonies. Even the greek presence in the mainland south is exaggerated since the greeks presence in italy was mostly trading ports on the coast. Do you have any idea how isolated these towns are in mainland italy? Or the colony programs the Romans had in the mainland? Colonies reserved only for the indigenous italic population.

  114. Marko says:
    @Matthew Alexander

    I don’t get these arguments. The foreign presence in Rome was always exaggerated. In the very beginning the slaves Rome used were indigenous italics. The Romans themselves were Italics. Forgieners/slaves always had higher mortality rates relative to the indigenous population. Besides Rome was dramatically depopulated after the Roman era and was repopulated by mainland italians.

  115. Hail says: • Website
    @Wency

    That’s in line with what I’ve heard all my life. I have never heard a Christian pastor say Jesus “was married and fathered children.” Wherever DonVonBurg heard this idea, I don’t know.

    I have known liberal Protestants who might not overtly reject the idea (as heresy, in your word), but would counter that there is no biblical evidence for it.

    OTOH some might fall back onto last verse of the gospel of John:

    John 21:25

    Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

  116. Keypusher says:
    @JP

    I have little doubt that life under Theodoric was better overall than under the late Empire or the Byzantines (or the Lombards, don’t forget them when thinking about Italian decline). But how do we know what happened with population from one era to the next? We don’t have censuses (do we?). I read a literary history of sixth-century Italy, and for huge swaths of time you have have one or two sources, usually with a very obvious bias, limited information or both. The author didn’t provide the usual synthesis, but instead just summarized what the various accounts said, making it clear how fragmentary and contradictory they were.

  117. Keypusher says:
    @J

    Definitely, in times of Jesus, everybody was married and having children.

    To preface any sentence about the “times of Jesus” with “definitely” is prima facie evidence that the speaker doesn’t have a clue. Ditto for “everybody.”

    I doubt there has ever been a society in human history in which everybody got married.

  118. Marko says:
    @BB753

    In the very beginning of Romes history most slaves were indigenous Italics, captured slaves from other parts of Europe and else where were sold through out the Roman Empire.

  119. keypusher says:
    @BB753

    It is also estimated that his legions killed over a million Gauls.

    That’s just a fantasy number. No one has a clue, and there is no process for getting a clue that is worthy of being called “estimation.”

    • Replies: @BB753
  120. Hail says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    In the macro view, you’re right.

    There is always more to the story, though, when looking at subbranches:

    Browsing back over the E1b1b profile by Eupedia’s Maciamo Hay (revised May 2018) re the Origins and History of E1b1b, he points out that some branches of E1b1b have been in Europe since the Neolithic (an old insight),

    (Sidenote: The fact that significant Semitic incursions happened in Neolithic Europe was already known very well to the racial anthropologists working as of the early 20th century, long before y-dna testing — they found the same via examination of skulls at burial sites and the like; it was also supported by many historical etymologists who find evidence for a Semitic language wave that swept over the Vasconic languages [Basque as sole survivor] before the Indo-European linguistic tidal wave came later).

    Maciamo Hay cites recent research that suggests E1b1b’s expansion has to do with a number of E1b1b men, perhaps entire tribes, attaching themselves directly under the Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age. In other words, they expanded on the coattails of Indo-European R1b and R1a.

    (Anti-Indo-European hardliners, otoh, saw much less reproductive success and their lines often faded out or became marginal, such as once-mighty G2a [Otzi the Iceman], which, research suggests, may once have been a majority of male lines in much of Europe before the Indo-European arrivals began to upset the apple cart. G2a is today at more like 5-10% in its core Alpine refuge area and as low as ~0% in Scandinavia.)

    So Napoleon Bonaparte’s particular E1b1b y-line could well have been in Europe for a very long time, but the ancestral stock from which it ultimately came is (proto-)Semitic. We know, e.g., that a lot of the same top-level branch of Napoleon’s E1b1b (E-M34) is found at Phoenician sites. The Semitic Phoenicians were active in Corsica, and a lot further afield, until their successive losses in the Punic Wars (3rd, 2nd centuries BC).

    Many Jews, who are of much more recent extra-European origin than Napoleon’s E1b1b line may be, are also E1b1b and also of Napoleon’s E-M34 top branch. We know Steven Pinker is one, as is Albert Einstein. Einstein was of the highly Jewish, “exclusively Middle Eastern” E1b1b-Z380 sub-branch.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  121. @anonymous

    What makes you so sure? Are there many black children today being killed by non-blacks? Or are most murdered black children killed by other blacks?

  122. Hail says: • Website
    @Reg Cæsar

    I’m sure some genetic genealogist(s) have put work into finding candidates for who Elvis’ real father’s father’s father was. It’s possible that an answer, or a winnowed-down list of a series of candidates, will be forthcoming in the 2020s. (= Late-breaking Elvis news.)

  123. sayless says:
    @Anonymous

    Byzantium had no new expressions. “

    Have you taken a look at their art?

  124. Hodag says:
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Carpet, drapes yada yada yada…

  125. sayless says:
    @anonymous

    All of the existing ancient Roman statues resemble the type of people who”

    No, they don’t.

  126. @indocon

    Wonder what Illhan Omar and her new white boy friend will produce
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7588845/Ilhan-Omar-lives-brazen-double-life-married-campaign-aide.html

    This is so hot:

    DailyMail.com can now disclose that Omar and Mynett are not only dating, but living together ‘on and off’ at a secret DC apartment, while plotting romantic vacations to Jamaica and making plans for a long-term future together.

    The Stella Artois is a nice touch, though a guy on Mynett’s take home could easily afford a 5.0L V8 Mustang.

  127. Catiline says:
    @Anon

    The average person does not grasp the mathematics of this intuitively, so they can be easily deceived by fanatical liberal scientists who have an agenda to push.

    Liberal (Nordic race?) scientists aren’t the only ones with an agenda here.

  128. @Jack

    Don’t know where the slaves came from, probably depended on who was fighting Rome at the time. Probably all of those areas. DNA analysis might be useful to describe the overall flows.

    Sea travel to Rome was well established. Walking 20 miles a day is not hard. It’s less than 500 miles to Turin. So 25 days. Slaves could be fed from towns along the route as the soldiers surely would be. And if you’re willing to lose a few slaves along the way you can march them harder or feed them less.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  129. @gwood

    I bet if Trump would reintroduce mammoth and saber-tooth tigers to Minnesota and Wisconsin he’d cinch those states in 2020.

  130. @Anonymous

    Am curious about Jesus’s Y-chromosome haplogroup.

  131. Bubba says:
    @Keypusher

    Definitely!

    I wonder if she would have approved of Elizabeth Taylor?

  132. Yngvar says:
    @Jack

    The Romans didn’t even bother to invent a new word for their slaves; they were Slavs.
    Servius –> Serbia.

  133. Anon[172] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    catholictradition.org/Tradition/goldstein-terms5.htm

    • Replies: @Jack D
  134. Cato says:

    how many skeletons of really famous individuals could be dug up to scan their DNA? … Who would be first on your list?

    The Romans are often lauded for their administrative genius. But a lot of this relied on the willingness of Romans to follow rules — one can only administer people well when the people go along with the cues from their leaders. So I would like to know something about the DNA of people like Seneca, who was at the core of the Roman elite, a gifted writer and Stoic philosopher, who dutifully committed suicide when instructed to do so by his emperor.

    • Replies: @Anon
  135. Anon[312] • Disclaimer says:
    @gwood

    I read that the biggest obstacle to recreating mammoths is fetal gestation: The obvious solution of using elephant surrogates is objected to by animal rights activists. So some sort of laboratory womb device would have to be developed. This may be an appropriate place for China to step in.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  136. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    What’s so bad about using an elephant to breed what is basically a hairier elephant?

    • Replies: @Anon
  137. @SFG

    Juvenal stands up surprisingly well – not as well as the more ribald bits of Catullus: I can’t imagine a sicker burn than “On Foul Amelius“…

    I did not (may the gods love me) think it mattered,
    whether I might be smelling Aemilius’s mouth or arse.
    The one’s no cleaner, the other’s no dirtier,
    in fact his arse is both cleaner and nicer:
    since it’s no teeth. Indeed, the other has
    foot long teeth, gums like an old box-cart,
    and jaws that usually gape like the open
    cunt of a pissing mule on heat.
    He fucks lots of women, and makes himself out
    to be charming, and isn’t set to the mill with the ass?
    Shouldn’t we think, of any girl touching him,
    she’s capable of licking a foul hangman’s arse?

  138. BB753 says:
    @keypusher

    Some historians give even higher numbers, those were Caesar’s own numbers, to be taken with a grain of salt. When dealing with ancient history, historians have no other choice than to guesstimate data. For example, the total population of Gaul has been estimated anywhere from 4 to 20 million people. Depending on the calculation, Gallic military levies range from one fourth to one sixteenth of the population. Even taking the lowest numbers as valid, casualties must have been very high for the era. Roman legions were known to be a particularly effective and deadly war machine, sparing only the defeated warriors who would be sold in slavery.
    As I mentioned, Caesar’s account was self-serving and basically propaganda, though some modern historians take his casualties’ numbers at face value. Though we shouldn’t underestimate the vast numbers of non-combattants who died from punitive raids or starvation.
    Here’s a very sober paper who deals with this matter.
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/adh_0066-2062_1998_num_1998_1_2162

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @keypusher
  139. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cato

    My impression is that Rome didn’t rely on a passive, rule obeying populace populace so much as a microtribal proto-mafia society.

    Until Augustus there was no state military. Rich guys had armies and controlled things.

    The fire department was created and run by a rich guy, and it helped not to get on his bad side. The cops were a dozen or two tough guys whose main task was to keep the two consuls alive as they walked around the city, and to get them out of town quickly when their terms were up and their immunity expired.

    Local trades and communities were run by “associations.” If you caused trouble you ended up in a bag in the Tiber, or the sewer that flowed into it. If you had powerful friends, the guy who bagged you got bagged.

  140. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I’m all for it.

    Depending on the breed, given the size of mammoths, the surrogate mother might have to be sacrificed in history’s biggest, bloodiest Caesarian section, but hey, it’s for science!

  141. Anon[213] • Disclaimer says:
    @BB753

    I’m reading Roaul McLaughlin’s books on Roman overseas trade (China, India, silk, peppercorns, balsam, myrrh, etc.), and he has a lot of quantitative estimates of economic factors. He uses military figures by way of estimating Rome’s imperial budget and annual expenses.

    It’s fascinating how these economic historians go about making estimations. At the end of the day McLaughlin is citing references in Roman love poetry, the New Testament (those early Christians hitched rides on a lot of Mediterranean trade ships), on tombstones, in trade route graffiti, and in offhand comments by Pliny the Elder (who at one point participated in a sort of high-level imperial audit and presumably knew the real facts).

    McLaughlin will make connections like a poem mentions a woman asking her lover for 100 units of money close to a reference to silk dresses, and the money was worth about 10 of such and such coins, which were worth six years of a centurion’s salary, and so on, all of which seems really sloppy, but he triangulates and verifies from so many directions that it seems like it would be unlikely that his figures were not more or less accurate.

    • Agree: BB753
  142. eugyppius says:
    @dearieme

    The resurrection was never completely absent from Mark. The earliest texts end at 16:8, where Mary, Mary and Salome find the empty tomb and flee in fear. So it is implicit. As for Jesus as the son of God, that is among Mark’s central themes, repeated multiple times. The wrinkle is probably that Mark 1:9-11 suggests that Jesus became God’s son at the point of his baptism, contrary to later theological tastes. Thus Mark 1:1 was altered to clarify that Jesus was God’s son from the very beginning.

  143. LondonBob says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The enormous catacombs in Rome would be the best place to go, I would say famous but no one else has mentioned them.

  144. Bliss says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    the soul without the body is incomplete. The man is the composite of body and soul, matter and form….. if man does indeed have an immortal soul, then he must and will have a resurrected body.

    That actually makes sense to you? If soul has a ‘form’ it must also be a material object like the body. Therefore it can be observed. So why hasn’t anyone ever observed it?

    Secondly, if the soul is incomplete without the body how could it be immortal and uncreated while the body was certainly created very recently and is not immortal?

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  145. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @BB753

    If that were the case, we would expect Romans to become more Germanic genetically as time went on in the imperial period.

    Infact, this study suggests they became less North Italian (meaning more similar to Germanics, with a higher ateppe component) and more similar to Southern Italians. So the slaves cam from the South.

    Also, that 1 million number is pure imagination.

    • Replies: @BB753
  146. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @Chief Seattle

    If you read the paper this article concerns, you will see that the “slaves” came from southern Italy and north Africa.

  147. Bliss says:
    @Hail

    Haplogroup E is the all-african haplogroup. It is the dominant Haplogroup in all the nations of Africa. And is the stereotypical Haplogroup of African-Americans, Caribbean Islanders and other descendants of West Africans in the American Continent.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  148. Svevlad says:
    @Anonymous

    Nah, it’s just that we at the southeast had a little problem with bad neighbors, which is reason numero uno why we should start a shipping company to relocate all the southeastern neighbors in freight ships to our northwestern ones. Peace at last!

  149. Ancient Rome was a huge population sink which declined from perhaps a million to a low of 30 thousand and while there were slaves the vast majority were other Europeans. Indeed Rome was repopulated by Italians from the hinterlands over time. G Cochrane is quite correct on this as are many historians.

  150. T.Chris says:

    The results of that study have already been leaked online, and it shows the presence of foreigners in the Imperial Period but NO change to Rome’s nor Italy’s gene pool afterwards:

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/upcoming-study-on-ancient-italian-dna-t87552.html

    That’s because cities like Rome were population sinks. Whatever foreigners were there in Roman times eventually disappeared, and Rome was repopulated by Italians from the countryside.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  151. @Anonymous

    Yes. And the later Army was made up of mercenaries. People will not fight to maintain a community that is merely an agglomeration of random strangers. To fill the army’s ranks, Rome offered citizenship to aliens who joined up, just as the USA does today.

    In war men are asked to sacrifice themselves for the preservation of the Corps or homeland but most men will only (reluctantly) put their lives on the line for “blood and kinship”. A mercenary will not fight as hard as a man protecting his homeland–what’s the point? He’s working for lucre and if he gets killed he won’t be able to spend his reward.

    As in Rome, Empire will be the untergang of America.

  152. T.Chris says:
    @Redneck farmer

    I know northern Italy is lighter skinned than southern Italy

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  153. T.Chris says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Tenney Frank was an idiot:

    But the foundations on which this far-reaching theory rests are not above suspicion. The nationality of Roman slaves is but rarely expressly stated in the sepulchral inscriptions, and thus it is upon the appearance of a Greek name for slave or freedman that Tenney Frank has inferred an Oriental origin. The legitimacy of this inference has been questioned by Miss Mary Gordon in her able study of the “Nationality of Slaves under the early Roman Empire” […]

    In fact the nomenclature of the slave in the ancient world was scarcely less arbitrary than are the modern names given to our houses, our puddings, our horses or our dogs. An attempt to determine the domicile of origin of our cats or dogs solely by the names which their owners have given them would hardly be likely to produce results of high scientific value. […]

    These 13,900 dead who left permanent memorials behind them cannot be regarded as really representative of the general servile population of the city: we are not justified in using the percentage obtained from these records and applying it as though it were applicable to the whole class of slaves and of freedmen.

    In the light of this criticism Tenney Frank’s statistics are vitiated, and it must be admitted that the nationality of the slaves of Rome under the early Empire remains a matter of conjecture. There must have been a far greater number derived from Western Europe than are allowed for on Tenney Frank’s calculations.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/296623

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  154. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @T.Chris

    Nice fake pictures, Southie.

    • Replies: @T.Chris
  155. BB753 says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Why would Romans have become more Northern European from all their Celtics, Germanic, Dacian (like Spartacus) and Slavic slaves? For starters, they also had Northern African, Middle – Eastern slaves, not to mention Italic and Greeks slaves. On the other hand, most slaves didn’t live long enough because their fate was grim (galleys, mines, fields) and couldn’t have a family or afford to raise children. So, there was a high turnout of slaves, fed by the constant was expeditions and poor life conditions of the population, who often became enslaved for failing to pay debts or simply chose to be slaves not to starve. Perhaps house slaves were luckier, particularly good-looking female slaves who would occasionally become impregnated with their masters’ seed. Even so, abortion and infanticide were rampant.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    , @BB753
  156. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @Bliss

    Haplogroup E is the all-african haplogroup. It is the dominant Haplogroup in all the nations of Africa. And is the stereotypical Haplogroup of African-Americans, Caribbean Islanders and other descendants of West Africans in the American Continent

    Wtf? No it is not.

    Haplogroup A is the all African haplogroup.

    E is not native to West Africa and was transplanted to the west of Africa via the mass of rape of Negroid females by Somali-like black Caucasoids as recently as 5000 years ago. It is closely related to the Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroup D, found at highest frequency in the Ainu.

    E split from D in *West Asia* and migrated *to* Africa from the Levant according to Poznik and Cabrera. This is the consensus among geneticists.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  157. Brutusale says:
    @S. Anonyia

    The Indian woman who played Lucius Vorenus’ wife was allegedly “a peasant princess from a large and influential Roman clan, Niobe is proud, beautiful, and selfishly devoted to the interests of herself and her family. She managed eight years thinking her husband, Vorenus, would not return from battle.” She was easy on the eyes, though.

  158. Rome suffered a severe bottleneck during the Dark Ages when the population was reduced to a few thousands between the Gothic War and the coronation of Charlemagne.
    A major factor to Rome always being a population sink was the proximity of the Pontine Marshes, who’s bad smell gave malaria its name (from mal aria = bad air in italian).

  159. nymom says:
    @nebulafox

    When Rome was invade by various tribes of barbarians (or as we can now more accurately call them illegal immigrants) Europe fell into what we called in the past “The Dark Ages”…this description must now be politically incorrect since every time I say this now someone is disputing it; but, anyway. Few written historic records from that period exist in Europe since people forgot how to read and write. Actually I think the church kept what records did exist so writing continued only in a handful of places. As I understand it that was even the origins of all the very elaborate picture windows in churches. People couldn’t read anymore so these windows and various carvings told the stories behind the origins of Christianity in pictorial form…

    Some authors used to say (although probably would immediately be attacked by social media today if they said it now) that the West would have been doing space exploration by about the 14th century if they hadn’t been sidetracked by the barbarian invasions…

    Just sayin…

    • Replies: @Alden
  160. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    I can sort of wrap my head around the dual nature of the Christian God as father and son but I still don’t know who the #3 guy is and how he is different from the #1 guy. Saying “it’s mystical” doesn’t do it for me.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    , @Alden
  161. Anonymous[155] • Disclaimer says:
    @donald j tingle

    Well the Romans had been through this process at least twice before, firstly when the descendants of the people who had founded the city (patricians) gave equality to the descendants of people who had immigrated to it (plebeians), and again when Roman citizenship was extended to the Italian allies of Rome.

  162. @Bliss

    If soul has a ‘form’ it must also be a material object like the body.

    Are you an idiot? Can you not read? What part of “the soul is the form of the body” do you not understand? The soul is a form, it does not have a form. Forms are immaterial by definition. And you observe the soul every time you observe the body, because the body would not be a body without a soul informing it.

    Secondly, if the soul is incomplete without the body how could it be immortal and uncreated while the body was certainly created very recently and is not immortal?

    This sort of towering stupidity is almost beyond belief, but unfortunately it is not technically beyond argument; so sadly, as tedious as it is for me to engage with a moron of your stature, I have to make the attempt.

    What you have written here is both a non sequitur and a confusion of terms. First of all, the soul is not uncreated, you twit. Everything that is not God is a creature. The human soul is immortal by virtue of its rational nature. It does not preexist the body, but is created along with it. The person, which is a union of body and soul, is created in one act. Bodies perish both because they are made of matter and subject to change and because the human nature has been wounded through Original Sin. A rational soul, however, cannot perish because it already contains its own proper aveternity due to its union with the eternal ideas; thus it persists even without the body. A soul with no body, though, is not a person. To be a complete person it must inform matter so as to reacquire its body. But this body, in order to exist forever, must no longer be subject to accidental change and therefore the realization of this state must wait for the general resurrection (when time ends and matter is transfigured), except in the few special cases mentioned above.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  163. @nebulafox

    What would he have made of Elagabalus? Him, his black rock, and his remarkably “2019” take on the number of sexes out there?

    Elagabalus was Syrian. Juvenal (writing more than a century earlier) expressed his low opinion of Syrians in the passage I quoted. He might have added, if Rome keeps letting them in, sooner or later, one of them will become emperor.

  164. Alden says:
    @Hail

    I believe that’s anti Christian atheists, not Protestants. The book Holy Blood Holy Grail is wonderful entertainment, but it’s fiction.

  165. Alden says:
    @Bill P

    All Italians are special and elegant. Almost all the clothes in Saks, Neiman Marcus, Magnins Nordstrom Designer Shop are imported from Italy. Not that I buy those clothes.

    Best thing about Italy is the way the women dress. Pretty dresses, no 60 year old women with scraped back messy pony tails. Clothes in the out door market; lavender skirt darker lavender irises and green leaves painted not printed in it, a selection of matching tops.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  166. @Jack D

    I can sort of wrap my head around the dual nature of the Christian God as father and son

    Not a dual nature, one nature. The Trinity is three Persons in one divine nature. The Godhead is the same in each. Additionally, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, as the man Jesus Christ, has also taken to Himself a human nature in the Incarnation. This is the only case in which it is correct to speak about a duality of natures in God. Christ has both the human and the divine nature, but the divine nature itself is identical in all three Persons. This is pretty basic Sunday school stuff.

    but I still don’t know who the #3 guy is and how he is different from the #1 guy.

    Well, that is hardly surprising, since not knowing things is more or less your MO around here. The only difference is that this time you aren’t pretending that you do know something, which I suppose is an improvement of sorts, even though you intended your show of ignorance to be an insult to the comprehensibility of Christianity.

    Try this:

    God the Father is ipsum esse subsistens, the pure actuality, the changeless and necessary being which reason shows must underlie all contingent being. This being is spiritual (i.e. immaterial), rational, intelligible, and, therefore we may say after a fashion, a Person. In the mind of this Person are the ideas of all things, including (supremely) the idea of Himself. In knowing Himself perfectly and completely, that which He knows is truly Himself over again, His own nature eternally begotten by Him in his divine mind, possessing all His qualities in their perfection, including His Personhood. The idea that God has of God is God, the second Person of the Trinity, the divine Logos, Christ His son. The father looks at the son, loving him completely. The son looks back at the father, loving Him completely with the same love. The one spirit of this love proceeds from both of Them; and as the pure expression of that which is loved, possesses likewise all Their qualities in their perfection, including Their Personhood. The love which God has for God is God, the third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Ghost, eternally respired by the other two persons.

    There is nothing incomprehensible about this. If you do not get it, it is because you reject it.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  167. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @Alden

    I’m not sure if this is a joke or not, but modern so-called “Italian” clothing is made by Southern Chinese immigrant labor, out of Europe’s refuse fabric scrap, and is practically junk relative to the price. Italians don’t work or create anything anymore.

  168. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @BB753

    That’s my point. You mentioned Gauls and Germans, but Rome didn’t become more Gaulic or German after the end of the Republican period. This study shows that Iron Age Rome was originally North Italian, and became more SOUTHERN ITALIAN as time went on. That means there were very few German or Celtic slaves in Italy.

    Also, there were obviously no Slavic slaves in the Western Roman Empire as Slavs didn’t exist until near to the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire.

    You simply have no idea what you’re talking about.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    , @BB753
  169. @Keypusher

    Ok, and those were built how long after the Empire fell?

    Three centuries for Mont Saint Michel, four for Aachen Cathedral, which was started by Charlemagne himself and is where he is buried.

    His son, grandson, brother, father, and grandfather (Charles Martel) are buried at Saint-Denis outside Paris, which took a little longer to develop and was the first of the Gothic cathedrals.

    • Replies: @keypusher
  170. @Brutusale

    The Indian woman who played Lucius Vorenus’ wife was allegedly “a peasant princess from a large and influential Roman clan, Niobe is proud, beautiful, and selfishly devoted to the interests of herself and her family. She managed eight years thinking her husband, Vorenus, would not return from battle.”

    That depends on what the meaning of the word was is.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/1998/09/bill-clinton-and-the-meaning-of-is.html

    I doubt the actress was that old. Perhaps she is a reincarnation, though, I’ll grant you that. Metempsychotic.

  171. By the way, why are graves said to be “robbed”? Is the threat of violence against the ghost?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbery

  172. Sam Coulton [AKA "S.S.M Coulton"] says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Also, there were obviously no Slavic slaves in the Western Roman Empire as Slavs didn’t exist until near to the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire

    **should have read “near to the fall of the Western Roman Empire.”

  173. ia says:
    @Unzerker

    Northern Italy, being a short walk down the Alpine mountains, was naturally a Celtic region.

    They are Lombards, from Germany, that swept down after the fall of Rome.

  174. Bliss says:
    @Sam Coulton

    E split from D in *West Asia* and migrated *to* Africa from the Levant according to Poznik and Cabrera. This is the consensus among geneticists.

    Bullcrap. Educate yourself:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M96

    several discoveries made since the Hammer articles are thought to make an Asian origin less likely…. In 2015 Trobetta et al. suggested an East African origin for haplogroup E, stating: “our phylogeographic analysis, based on thousands of samples worldwide, suggests that the radiation of haplogroup E started about 58 ka, somewhere in sub-Saharan Africa, with a higher posterior probability (0.73) for an eastern African origin.”[6]……. A 2019 study by Haber et al. supports an African origin for haplogroup E (based on an analysis of the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic structure, haplogroup divergence times, and the recently discovered haplogroup D0 found in three Nigerians, an additional branch of the DE lineage diverging early from the D branch). The authors support an African origin for DE (parent haplogroup of E) with E and D0 also originating in Africa, along with the migration out of Africa of the three lineages (C, D and FT) that now form the vast majority of non-African Y chromosomes.

    The Haplogroups E1b1a and E1b1b are the majority haplogroups of African nations and the African diaspora. They are the quintessential African haplogroups, just as Haplogroup O is the quintessential haplogroup of East and Southeast Asia. The most common haplogroup of West Asia is J.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  175. @T.Chris

    Hardly. Rome didn’t fall due to the degradation of the slave class, but to that of the ruling class. Some slaves married up.

    This doesn’t mean their IQs necessarily went down. It could simply have been that the multiple origins of the later leadership pulled them in differing directions, and the original cohesion of the Republic was lost. That’s how I read Frank’s point.

    Frank’s own origins were in Sweden. Other than the odd Italian miner or Finnish houseservant– or German upperclassman– Sweden was among the most homogeneous of European nations. America must have seemed like a madhouse to his family.

    • Replies: @T.Chris
  176. Bliss says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The soul is a form, it does not have a form. Forms are immaterial by definition.

    Material objects have forms. The human body does not need a soul to give it a form.

    you observe the soul every time you observe the body, because the body would not be a body without a soul informing it.

    Lol at an idiot like you naming himself “intelligent”. Minuscule molecules have forms, are we looking at their souls too? Forms are in constant flux: you were once a baby sucking on a breast then a youth sucking on breasts, now you are a senile wrinkled old fart dreaming of sucking on breasts. Did your immortal soul change shape with you?

    Btw, form and inform have completely different meanings. You are a fine example of the futility of applying half-baked pagan Greek philosophy to christianity. It only leads to prickly confusion.

    The human soul is immortal by virtue of its rational nature. It does not preexist the body, but is created along with it

    To be immortal is to live for all eternity. Anything that is created in time is not eternal by definition. If your soul was created with your body it will die with your body. All created entities have a lifespan. Only the uncreated can be eternal.

  177. @Brutusale

    Niobe was played by one Indira Varma:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Varma

    Indira was also in A Game of Thrones.

    Plenty of pics online for the interested student.

  178. keypusher says:
    @BB753

    Thanks for the link to Henige’s article. I assume you did not read it, because the entire thrust of the article is to point out that all numbers for ancient Gaul, whether Caesar’s, other ancients’, or those of modern historians, are garbage. That includes the 4 to 20 million figure you quote for the population of Gaul. Since Caesar’s numbers are nonsense (as Henige demonstrates), modern figures based on his numbers and other dubious ancient sources are nonsense on stilts, as Bentham might say.

    Think about what you’re saying. Modern historians don’t know within a factor of five what the population of Gaul was (and as Henige demonstrates, they don’t even know that) yet somehow you or someone knows that Caesar’s troops killed a million Gauls?

    Incidentally, the one million figure comes originally from Plutarch. Some idea of his reliability can be gained by comparing what he claimed for Pompey: 846 pirate ships destroyed in one battle alone, 876 towns vanquished in Spain, and 12,183,000 people killed or routed in battle or forced to surrender, along with another 1,538 towns. (See Henige at 236.)

    Depending on the calculation, Gallic military levies range from one fourth to one sixteenth of the population.

    I doubt anyone ever said one fourth, which is ludicrous on its face. Half the population are women, there are boys and old men, plus there’s the little problem of feeding a quarter of the population gathered together. (Also, if every able-bodied man in Gaul goes off to fight Caesar, what do you think the Germans are going to do?)

    As Henige points out, if you accept Caesar’s figures for Alesia (and you shouldn’t), that implies that only 1/15 to 1/20 of the Gallic population was present even if you assume the population of Gaul is under four million. If you think the population of Gaul was 20 million, obviously the percentage present at the critical final battle was much smaller. Maybe the Gauls didn’t care so much? (See Henige at 227.)

    Roman legions were known to be a particularly effective and deadly war machine, sparing only the defeated warriors who would be sold in slavery.

    Um, what if the defeated enemy ran away? What if the defeated enemy had horses, or knew the terrain better, or just scattered?

    Even taking the lowest numbers as valid, casualties must have been very high for the era.

    The bolded text is the trap — the idea being that if we have a range, we can be responsible and conservative and pick the lowest number. But if all the numbers are crap, there is no way to be responsible — except not to estimate at all. If we don’t know what casualties for the era were, to say they must have been high in Gaul is meaningless — especially since, if Plutarch is worth anything (probably not), casualties in Gaul seem to have been rather low compared to in Pompey’s campaigns.

    Henige, incidentally, also took on high estimates of native populations in the Americas at the time of Columbus put out by modern historians. His response to those estimates is summed up by his title, Numbers From Nowhere. In 1491, Charles Mann cites Henige, makes no effort to refute his criticism, but proceeds to use really high population figures anyway.

    There are modern examples of massive misestimation. In 1940, Rommel claimed to have been attacked by five divisions and hundreds of tanks at Arras. In fact he was attacked by four battalions and fewer than 80 tanks. French officers fighting (successfully) near Hannut in the early days of the German offensive reported that the German Panzer IV tanks weighed a staggering (not to mention impractical) 76 tons, as opposed to the actual figure of 20 tons — the same size as their own tanks. Books written immediately after the French defeat report wildly exaggerated numbers of German tanks, planes, and even troops. If the Germans and French can’t figure these things out in 1940, how can the Romans do it in 50 B.C.? Especially when Caesar has no interest in accurate numbers and limitless interest in self-glorification?

    When dealing with ancient history, historians have no other choice than to guesstimate data.

    That amounts to saying “if they have no reliable information, historians have no choice but to make sh!t up.” I disagree.

    • Replies: @BB753
  179. keypusher says:

    Utter bilge. Wikipedia kindly provides dioramas showing the gradual progress of construction at Mont-Saint-Michel, showing the slow progress over centuries typical of medieval architecture. A few modest monastic buildings were put up 400 years or so after the Empire fell. The site reached something like its current appearance 700 or more years after that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont-Saint-Michel

    Similarly, Charlemagne built a rather modest (by Roman or later medieval standards) chapel; it became the cathedral we see today over hundreds of years. (“[T]he core of the cathedral is the Carolingian-Romanesque Palatine Chapel, which was modeled after San Vitale at Ravenna and is notably small in comparison to the later additions.”)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatine_Chapel,_Aachen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen_Cathedral

  180. T.Chris says:
    @Sam Coulton

    They’re not “fake”. They’re morphs: composites of many different pictures (randomly selected) that show the average phenotypes. You’re a moron.

  181. T.Chris says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Tenney Frank was wrong about Romans mixing with Oriental slaves:

    Consequently, Brunt’s figures offer no basis for assuming that a dramatic rise in the number of Roman slaves — and hence in the number of the plantations that employed them — was getting under way during the early second century. […]

    It is also worth bearing in mind that not all of those whom Rome’s armies captured will have wound up in Italy, for this by no means constituted the only market for slaves in the early second century. […]

    But if a population of 3 million slaves, representing as much as 40 percent of Italy’s inhabitants in the first century B.C., was successfully reproducing itself, it would surely have left its mark on the genetic makeup of contemporary Italians. That it did not argues strongly for a very low rate of natural reproduction among Italy’s slaves […]

    If a dramatic rise in Italy’s servile population during the second and first centuries is beginning to appear increasingly questionable, the decline in the numbers of free men and women that is supposed to have been its corollary is also being viewed with a growing skepticism. […]

    From a different perspective, Morley, too, has raised additional doubts about the conventional view. He notes that the populations of early modern cities generally could not reproduce themselves; they depended instead upon a large, steady influx of immigrants from the countryside to reach and then to maintain their size. Rome, he believes, would have been no different.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=X_euxrtly3oC&printsec=frontcover

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  182. T.Chris says:

    Razib Khan summarizes the results of the study in the OP:

    re: rome. paper out in 1 month.

    the results looked like this to me

    1) no diff btwn etruscans and latins
    2) massive shift toward ‘eastern’ affinity during the imperial period
    3) shift ‘back’ after the late antique period

    basically, i think it is in line with work which suggests large fraction of non-natives in *cities* when cities declined this genetic imprint diminshed and medieval cities were repopulated from rural areas.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/10/21/open-thread-10-21-2019/#comment-15077

  183. BB753 says:
    @Sam Coulton

    No, that only means Celtics and Germanic slaves failed to reproduce in large numbers and neither did their descendants. The idea being that not everybody gets to pass on their genes, for different reasons. More so if you’re a slave.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  184. BB753 says:
    @keypusher

    Thanks for the additional information! If you read my post carefully, I don’t subscribe to the one million casualties number as an article of faith. Could we settle on a quarter million casualties? If historians can’t guesstimate, what can they say: that there’s no rational way to know how many Gauls lived and perished during Caesar’s campaigns? Absolute centainty does not exist, but estimations have always been part of historiography, for such is the nature of the data historians have to work on.
    Keypusher, as you seem such a bold man debunking faulty historical data, I suggest you look at the numbers of European Jews who died during WWII. Now, there’s a whole lot of “guesstimation” you might want to look into, if you have good lawyers!

  185. keypusher says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    (Reposting as a reply to Reg Caesar, since it didn’t show up as one the first time.)

    Utter bilge. Wikipedia kindly provides dioramas showing the gradual progress of construction at Mont-Saint-Michel, showing the slow progress over centuries typical of medieval architecture. A few modest monastic buildings were put up 400 years or so after the Empire fell. The site reached something like its current appearance 700 or more years after that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont-Saint-Michel

    Similarly, Charlemagne built a rather modest (by Roman or later medieval standards) chapel; it became the cathedral we see today over hundreds of years. (“[T]he core of the cathedral is the Carolingian-Romanesque Palatine Chapel, which was modeled after San Vitale at Ravenna and is notably small in comparison to the later additions.”)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatine_Chapel,_Aachen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen_Cathedral

  186. @T.Chris

    He notes that the populations of early modern cities generally could not reproduce themselves; they depended instead upon a large, steady influx of immigrants from the countryside to reach and then to maintain their size. Rome, he believes, would have been no different.

    That makes my point– whether they interbred or not, diverse aliens made Rome less cohesive. That’s what the inscriptions tell us. Frank was right about the most important part.

    This is why New Sweden fell so easily to New Netherland, and New Netherland in turn to the English. They were too diverse. Too few had a dog in the fight.

  187. @Intelligent Dasein

    I am happy to find someone else who expresses as I would (and have) the sublime reality of what the Trinity is.

    The priesthood of today is bereft of this understanding: I have never heard it even attempted, least of all on the Feast itself, in any sermon I have ever heard.

    No wonder they gave us Francis.

    • Agree: JMcG
  188. Alden says:
    @Jack D

    The third God is a white Dove. That’s all you need to know.

  189. Alden says:
    @nymom

    More than the barbarians, the problem was a terrible bubonic plague that lasted in and off from about 450AD to 700. Justinian plague.

    It was far worse than the medieval plagues. It depopulated most of Europe and the MENA. Depopulation made both the Viking and Muslim invasions possible.

    So many died few records were written in contrast to the medieval plagues which were well recorded.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @anonymous
  190. BB753 says:
    @BB753

    I forgot to mention that slaves were sold throughout the Empire, not just Rome itself. So a captured Gaul could end up enslaved in any part of the Empire, from Iberia to Alexandria to Syria or Greece.

  191. anonymous[698] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alden

    Well you got the gay little dude who posts as BB753 to agree with you, so there’s that.

    • Replies: @BB753
  192. BB753 says:
    @anonymous

    Some people are ignorant of history.

  193. @Bliss

    Idiot, your non-source Wikipedia article references Poznik at the very top of the page (“possible place of origin”).

    E is not the quitesential African haplogroup as it is not unique to Africa and most likely originated outside Africa, in Asia. Its descendants (E and D) are more widespread outside Africa than within. *A* is the quitessential African haplogroup, found almost nowhere outside Africa and certainly originated there.

    Just LOL @ telling someone to “educate themselves” with a Wikipedia article. What a little autistic dipshit.

  194. @BB753

    Dummy, look what you said here:

    Most slaves were war booty. For instance, Julius Caesar made a fortune selling thousands of Gauls and Germans after his campaigns.

    That means females. Yet there were few German slaves, because Roman DNA shifted towards the South in the Imperial period. Apparently, the North_Italian Romans who ruled the original empire failed to pass on their own genes.

    This is the part where you realize your IQ is below room temperature, and do not respond.

    • Replies: @zogborg
  195. zogborg says:
    @Sam Coulton

    What would you call yourself politically? At times you seem right-wing almost, but then you mock white nationalists viciously. I’ve never seen a person with your mixture of opinions.

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