The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Richard Bradley: "Is the 'Rolling Stone' Story True?"
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Author Richard Bradley blogs:

Some years ago, when I was an editor at George magazine, I was unfortunate enough to work with the writer Stephen Glass on a number of articles. They proved to be fake, filled with fabrications, as was pretty much all of his work. The experience was painful but educational; it forced me to examine how easily I had been duped. Why did I believe those insinuations about Vernon Jordan being a lech? About the dubious ethics of uber-fundraiser Terry McAuliffe?

The answer, I had to admit, was because they corroborated my pre-existing biases. I was well on the way to believing that Vernon Jordan was a philanderer, for example—everyone seemed to think so, back in the ’90s.

So Stephen wrote what he knew I was inclined to believe. And because I was inclined to believe it, I abandoned my critical judgment. I lowered my guard.

The lesson I learned: One must be most critical, in the best sense of that word, about what one is already inclined to believe. So when, say, the Duke lacrosse scandal erupted, I applied that lesson. The story was so sensational! Believing it required indulging one’s biases: A southern school…rich white preppy boys…a privileged sports team…lower class African-American women…rape. It read like a Tom Wolfe novel.

In the future, being reminded of a Tom Wolfe novel will be punishable by Watsoning.

And of course it never happened.

Which brings me to a magazine article that is causing an enormous furor in Virginia and around the country; it’s inescapable on social media. Written by a woman named Sabrina Rubin Erdely, the article is called “A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA.”

The article alleges a truly horrifying gang rape at a UVA fraternity, and it has understandably shocked the campus and everyone who’s read it. The consequences have been pretty much instantaneous: The fraternity involved has voluntarily suspended its operations (without admitting that the incident happened); UVA’s president is promising an investigation and has since suspended all fraternity charters on campus; the alumni are in an uproar; the governor of Virginia has spoken out; students, particularly female students, are furious, and the concept of “rape culture” is further established. Federal intervention is sure to follow.

The only thing is…I’m not sure that I believe it. I’m not convinced that this gang rape actually happened. Something about this story doesn’t feel right.

Read the rest there.

 
Hide 129 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. The movie “Shattered Glass” with Hayden Christemsen was excellent.

    Stephen Glass intuitively understood what would play and what wouldn’t…how to appeal to people’s biases. What Sailer calls Who Whom thinking.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  2. Interestingly enough, I’ve started doing the opposite with news stories. Since so many of them seem to fit the narrative, my natural inclination is to immediately label them as total bullcrap, but then I consciously say to myself, “Just because this fits the narrative of [white on black violence/privileged male on female violence/etc.] a little to perfectly doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not true. Let’s give a little time and see if the story isn’t substantiated after all.

    I almost wish I’d get proven wrong more often, but my knee-jerk initial impression of, “This is total bullcrap,” is surprisingly accurate.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  3. I’ve been wondering if it’s true as well.

    I imagine that if it is true, it wasn’t rape per se but a coed who suddenly realized she was “raped” after word got around campus about how, um, gregarious and enthusiastic she was at a certain party.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  4. Without reading the blog, or the entire article, I question the veracity of the incident as well. It is not a he said-she said rape: it is not a rape involving alcohol: it is not a date rape. It is, allegedly, a rape in which the woman, sober, goes upstairs with her date, who then turns her over to 7 fraternity brothers who beat and rape her for three hours (and apparently push her through a glass table?). At the conclusion of the ordeal (at 11 pm that same night), the girl is on the street, bumps into three of her friends (two male and one female, I believe), who recommend she not report it-in particular, because the male friends want to pledge fraternities in the future!

    Shortly thereafter, the girl goes to the crisis center on campus, and the director there doesn’t recommend she go to the police, but rather outlines her options (report to police, file a complaint with the crisis center, don’t do anything, etc).

    This all happened two years ago, and at one site I read, the alleged perpetrators are all graduated and no longer on campus.

    There are so many obvious questions to ask about this incident. But one not so obvious question: if the incident is true, why isn’t the director of the crisis center immediately out of a job? Why is noone (the police, the university, even the fraternity system) treating this like the crime it is purported to be-in other words, why isn’t a police investigation being opened right now? In other words, why aren’t the people involved acting as if they believe it?

    It is almost as if everyone involved knows its not true, and they are all trying to treat it as seriously as they have to without taking it seriously at all. And by everyone, I mean the local police, the fraternity system, the president of the University, the crisis center at the university. The response is so out of kilter to what the purported incident is (not merely by those who would conceivably want to ‘cover up’ the crime-even by those who would want to expose or solve the crime), there is obviously something else going on.

    joeyjoejoe

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  5. Interesting that Darren Wilson’s testimony has been deemed a damned dirty lie by just about the entire left blogosphere despite being backed up by credible witness testimony and several independent autopsies, and meanwhile these same people accepted the UVA story as gospel truth the minute it surfaced despite being based on, as far as anyone besides the author knows, nothing at all.
    It’s almost as if this is more about ideological posturing and enforcement than logical analysis…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  6. This former English major wondered about the story as well.

    In addition to the sections Richard Bradley analyzes, I found the quotations from the alleged victim’s friends to be suspect; they tell her to downplay a gang rape because otherwise she’ll be unpopular on campus, and they, presumably via their association with her, will be shunned by the Greek-scene party crowd as well:

    “Her reputation will be shot for the next four years.” Andy seconded the opinion, adding that since he and Randall both planned to rush fraternities, they ought to think this through. The three friends launched into a heated discussion about the social price of reporting Jackie’s rape . . . .

    Also, the story’s timing is, ah, useful, as it comes right in the heat of the Obama Administration’s push to extend Title IX regulations over higher ed via the pretext of ‘rape culture on campus’.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  7. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    From the article: I am not, thankfully, an expert on premeditated gang rape, but to the extent that it exists, it seems to be most prevalent in war-torn lands or countries with a strain of a punitive, misogynist and violent religious culture (Pakistan, for example).

    He apparently isn’t familiar with American gang culture, exemplified by his raging blackness and unrepentant serial rapist, Nathan McCall.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  8. Granted my experience with grave injury is limited. But how could it be possible that someone could have her back ground into broken glass for three hours and not pass out; not visibly bleed to the point where everyone would notice; be able to walk around under her own power without requiring so much as a Band-Aid; not have glass shards embedded in her back to the point that it would take an ER nurse at least an hour to extract them all fully.

    Who on earth could sustain that level of injury and not only endure it Stoically as alleged, but even require absolutely no treatment whatsoever?

    That's to leave aside all the other beyond-outrageous improbabilities.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  9. Steve, you hit on my initial suspicions in one of your comments over there. An 18 year-old UVA student was raped and murdered, by a man who has apparently murdered at least one other Virginia college student. The problem for the feminists and other SJWs is that the perpetrator is black, and that doesn’t fit their “Rape Culture” narrative. So this was extraordinary timing in bringing any campus rape conversation away from Jesse Matthews and onto the group everyone knows is the real problem, white frat boys. UVA and the surrounding community could not have been more primed for this story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    An 18 year-old UVA student was raped and murdered, by a man who has apparently murdered at least one other Virginia college student. The problem for the feminists and other SJWs is that the perpetrator is black, and that doesn’t fit their “Rape Culture” narrative. So this was extraordinary timing in bringing any campus rape conversation away from Jesse Matthews and onto the group everyone knows is the real problem, white frat boys. UVA and the surrounding community could not have been more primed for this story.

     

    Yes, exactly this. If I were more of a conspiracy theorist, I'd almost suspect a coordinated campaign conducted by a government agency at work here: a real case to use as a hook; a ginned-up 'narrative'-enhancing article to shift the focus of the media and its followers to the proper type of perpetrator, resulting in an ongoing government-run 'investigation' conducted at a famous university (known for its traditionalism/conservatism, at least in the world of higher ed) that's not too far from DC.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. I’d never actually read the Rolling Stone story figuring it was a disturbing story of alcohol and next-morning regret.

    Now that I realize the story is supposed to be a brutal, pre-meditated rape as a form of fraternity initiation, I can confidently say: No. Effing. Way. This story absolutely does not pass the smell test. The broken glass is enough to know it’s BS. But 9 college men conspiring in a pre-meditated gang rape? Nope, no way.

    If nothing else, there would be a history. Fraternity initiations gone bad inevitably started, if not innocently, at least not as gratuitous felonies. Then, as each year tries to out-do the previous year events escalate into being out-of-hand. So, where’s the other women coming forward with their stories of scary rapes, or near rapes? Contrast with the recent Bill Cosby pile-on, once the first story broke.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PatrickH
    People, you should read the story, however foolish parts of it sound, in order not to be guilty of folly similar to that of its writer. In fact, there *is* a history, of a sort, of such rapes at the UVa campus and at the particular fraternity house involved. The former are not substantiated, any more than the one experienced by Jackie, the main victim in the RS story, but the frat house rape has in fact been substantiated. The victim reported it to University authorities right after it happened in 1984, but was discouraged from going to the police about it. 25 years later, she received a note from one of her rapists confessing and apologizing for his actions, as part of his 12-step program. He was charged by the police and, during the investigation, they discovered that the woman had in fact been gang-raped. The incident and its aftermath are provided in the RS article along with the Jackie story.

    That other incident at "Phi Psi" happened in 1984, although it wasn't prosecuted until 2006, so it would be a bit much to say that there is an ongoing history of such behaviour at that particular fraternity. Except for the disquieting fact, also mentioned in the RS article, that Brown University's chapter of the same fraternity was temporarily suspended after allegations that female partygoers had had their drinks spiked and were then sexually assaulted. Don't know how it all ended wrt the sexual assault allegations, but at least one of the women tested positive for GHB. (See www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20141108-brown-university-student-tested-positive-for-date-rape-drug.ece )

    , @PatrickH
    People, you should read the story, however foolish parts of it sound, in order not to be guilty of folly similar to that of its writer. In fact, there *is* a history, of a sort, of such rapes at the UVa campus and at the particular fraternity house involved. The former are not substantiated, any more than the one experienced by Jackie, the main victim in the RS story, but the frat house rape *is* substantiated: the victim reported it to University authorities and was discouraged from going to the police about it, but 25 years later received a note from one of her rapists confessing and apologizing for his actions, as part of his 12-step program. He was charged by the police and, during the investigation, they discovered that the woman had in fact been gang-raped. The incident and its aftermath are provided in the RS article along with the Jackie story.

    That other incident at “Phi Psi” happened in 1984, although it wasn’t prosecuted until 2006, so it would be a bit much to say that there is an ongoing history of such behaviour at that particular fraternity. Except for the disquieting fact, also mentioned in the RS article, that Brown University’s chapter of the same fraternity was temporarily suspended after allegations that female partygoers had had their drinks spiked and were then sexually assaulted. Don’t know how it all ended wrt the sexual assault allegations, but at least one of the women tested positive for GHB. (See www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20141108-brown-university-student-tested-positive-for-date-rape-drug.ece )
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  11. Thank you, Richard Bradley. (slow clap)

    I think this is a sign that the manosphere’s influence is starting to affect the mainstream positively.

    Of course the manosphere has hit the mainstream previously, but usually as a form of “debate” where a guy like Roosh is set upon by a feminist or the host or both in an attempt to shame him. It’s usually a feminist attempt at a freakshow—”look at this evil misogynist, he thinks women lie, can’t do things men can do, and even denies rape culture! And there are may like him! He should be stomped out like the KKK!”

    That kind of effect is different from this.

    Here, we have a man who worked at major mainstream-type (re: left-of-center) political journals openly questioning a rape narrative by a woman. That is HUGE. Feminists are going to be a tizzy against him for daring to literally “questioning the narrative” (here, the article author’s narrative).

    It’s causing critical thinking of left-wing dogma. And that’s bad for left-wing dogma. So, so bad.

    The equivalent, race-wise, would be a guy like Dana Milbank openly questioning the narrative of Mike Brown or Trayvon Martin.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  12. “The lesson I learned: One must be most critical, in the best sense of that word, about what one is already inclined to believe.”

    Ah, the self-congratulatory back-patting about an event from nearly ten years ago. Now it would be interesting to see what this author has written over the past three months regarding Ferguson and observe if he is consistent in applying his own lesson to major news events.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  13. @monkeys
    Steve, you hit on my initial suspicions in one of your comments over there. An 18 year-old UVA student was raped and murdered, by a man who has apparently murdered at least one other Virginia college student. The problem for the feminists and other SJWs is that the perpetrator is black, and that doesn't fit their “Rape Culture” narrative. So this was extraordinary timing in bringing any campus rape conversation away from Jesse Matthews and onto the group everyone knows is the real problem, white frat boys. UVA and the surrounding community could not have been more primed for this story.

    An 18 year-old UVA student was raped and murdered, by a man who has apparently murdered at least one other Virginia college student. The problem for the feminists and other SJWs is that the perpetrator is black, and that doesn’t fit their “Rape Culture” narrative. So this was extraordinary timing in bringing any campus rape conversation away from Jesse Matthews and onto the group everyone knows is the real problem, white frat boys. UVA and the surrounding community could not have been more primed for this story.

    Yes, exactly this. If I were more of a conspiracy theorist, I’d almost suspect a coordinated campaign conducted by a government agency at work here: a real case to use as a hook; a ginned-up ‘narrative’-enhancing article to shift the focus of the media and its followers to the proper type of perpetrator, resulting in an ongoing government-run ‘investigation’ conducted at a famous university (known for its traditionalism/conservatism, at least in the world of higher ed) that’s not too far from DC.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  14. There is no fn way this happened. None. I only wish I read the Rolling Stone article to call BS first.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  15. I read the Rolling Stone article a while back, on Rod Dreher’s blog. He not only accepted it as fact, but all but a couple of his commenters did. I couldn’t believe so many people didn’t at least ask, politely, for some evidence backing this up.

    I understand the larger point: namely, universities have a tremendous vested interest in discouraging rape victims from contacting the police. But there are plenty of genuine cases to evaluate.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  16. Story is obviously false in every particular, but Sabrina Rubin Ederly has a future in fiction of the bodice-ripper variety. Selected almost at random:

    “The University of Virginia freshman wasn’t a drinker, but she didn’t want to seem like a goody-goody at her very first frat party – and she especially wanted to impress her date, the handsome Phi Kappa Psi brother who’d brought her here.”

    I was certain at that point that his name would be Chad, it turned out to be Drew. But close enough.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  17. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I skimmed the Rolling Stone article when it came out. I don’t remember exactly but I’m not sure if the article suggested it was a premeditated gang rape as a part of an initiation. The impression I got from the article was that it was premeditated group sex or a “gang bang”, rather than gang rape.

    Most likely if it’s true it was some sort of premeditated or drunken group sex/gang bang situation, rather than gang rape, with the girl regretting it and feeling so embarrassed and bad about it afterwards that she feels she really was raped or something.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  18. When I read the first quoted section my first reaction was “ok great this sounds like a smart guy”.

    And then when I read the section section my first reaction was “uh oh, I hope he was never planning on working again”.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  19. Ever been with a group of intelligent people where one or a few start suggesting you do something really dumb? Eventually someone WILL chime in and say, “Hey, are you guys effing nuts?”

    It will always happen. These are three intelligent UVA students – one of the best schools in the country – with an alleged victim who is certainly bruised and cut beyond recognition, to the point of probably needing medical attention, and yet none of them says “Don’t be stupid. We have to go to the police”?

    Bullshit. Just pure and utter bullshit. There is no way to validate this story. Virtually all of Rubin Erdely’s sources are off the record. She found a school – a Southern school, with a fight song most of whose verses are almost certainly unofficial – and she thought the song would make great punctuation for her story.

    What’s that great quote by Carl Sagan about religion that atheists are always repeating? “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

    “Jackie” is not a girl who lied. She is a girl who does not exist. Rubin Erdely made her up out of whole cloth. She needs to provide evidence, or she needs to retract. And UVA needs to go on the offensive, and either demand that Rolling Stone supply the evidence or file a lawsuit. My guess is that with so many women in charge, they DON’T WANT to file a lawsuit. Gov. McAuliffe and the leftist women at UVA want it to be part of the “sexist universities” narrative.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "“Jackie” is not a girl who lied. She is a girl who does not exist."

    No, she exists, she's a leading personality in the UVA rape crisis support group. The other women in the support group look up to her because she has the most awesome story about being raped.

    , @Big Bill
    These are Mrs. Grundy morality tales. Of COURSE they aren't going to go after the frat boys. Nor does the "victim" and Miss Rubin, her white knight, want them to. If the girls were any more specific about the supposed rapists they would be sued for slander and defamation, a fact the Rolling Stone attorneys doubtless made them painfully aware.

    These morality tales have a long history. I remember the first "Fate Worse Than Death" movie I saw. It was called "Where The Boys Are". Yvette Mimieux, a cute, innocent, naive, shy, non-drinking white girl gets lured to a Spring Break party with some wealthy privileged college boys. The next thing we see, she is staggering down a highway, face smudged, vacant eyes, almost getting hit by several cars, and clearly in shock after suffering "The Fate Worse Than Death".

    The lesson: "Have fun on Spring Break, girls, but watch out for roving gangs of rich white frat boys. They will take your Most Precious Possession!"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. Title IX may have actually exacerbated the clumsy job the university did handling the alleged assault. Under it, universities are supposed to perform a thorough investigation.

    However, universities are ill equipped to do so( police on the other hand exist and are trained for this purpose) The same board that hears roommate disputes is responsible for adjudicated felonies. Of course it will be a cluster of Sandusky proportions.

    If the dean receives a credible report that a felony( or many felonies as in this allegation) occurred, why do anything other than go to the police? How would you expect to prevent the perpetrator from victimizing someone else if all you’ve got are honor code adjudicated volunteers?

    Either the dean never received a credible report or she was an idiot of epic proportions.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  21. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    How many Steve Sailer’s are there commenting on that article?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  22. My daughters were in sororities there. They hung with the frat boys, they were skeptical.

    Anyone ever hear of Duke Lacrosse?Crystal Gail Magnum and …oh yeah, the Gang of 88? I hear they are organizing to support the UVa victim. Mike Nifong is giving legal advice to the University prosecutors, he needs the money considering he declared bankruptcy after his lying attempt to frame the Duke Lacrosse players.

    from the Duke Lacrosse entry in Wikipedia
    On April 3, 2011, Mangum stabbed and killed her boyfriend, Reginald Daye. She was convicted on November 15, 2013, of second-degree murder.[126]

    Has anyone in the UVa administration(or the national press)heard the definition of the word ‘allegation?’

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  23. There is now a whole page of commenters who have supposedly written to Rolling Stone claiming they or a “”friend” was raped or sexually assaulted at UVA. Not a single comment bears a real name, despite many of them being about ‘friends.’ A pattern has developed that is consistent with the initial Rolling Stone article.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  24. “Mike Nifong is giving legal advice to the University prosecutors”

    Is that a joke? Please tell me that’s a joke. How could anyone possibly ever listen to that guy again? Especially on THIS of all topics?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  25. @Wilkey
    Ever been with a group of intelligent people where one or a few start suggesting you do something really dumb? Eventually someone WILL chime in and say, "Hey, are you guys effing nuts?"

    It will always happen. These are three intelligent UVA students - one of the best schools in the country - with an alleged victim who is certainly bruised and cut beyond recognition, to the point of probably needing medical attention, and yet none of them says "Don't be stupid. We have to go to the police"?

    Bullshit. Just pure and utter bullshit. There is no way to validate this story. Virtually all of Rubin Erdely's sources are off the record. She found a school - a Southern school, with a fight song most of whose verses are almost certainly unofficial - and she thought the song would make great punctuation for her story.

    What's that great quote by Carl Sagan about religion that atheists are always repeating? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

    "Jackie" is not a girl who lied. She is a girl who does not exist. Rubin Erdely made her up out of whole cloth. She needs to provide evidence, or she needs to retract. And UVA needs to go on the offensive, and either demand that Rolling Stone supply the evidence or file a lawsuit. My guess is that with so many women in charge, they DON'T WANT to file a lawsuit. Gov. McAuliffe and the leftist women at UVA want it to be part of the "sexist universities" narrative.

    ““Jackie” is not a girl who lied. She is a girl who does not exist.”

    No, she exists, she’s a leading personality in the UVA rape crisis support group. The other women in the support group look up to her because she has the most awesome story about being raped.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Karen
    "Most awesome story about being raped."

    So, please help my poor helpless lady brain with this. Do men share awesome stories about being mugged or is it only women who really adore being victims of violent crime?

    Have any of you actually known any women or do you rely on the opinions of WoW avatars with giant boobs?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  26. Here’s a story in The Cavalier Daily about the song “Rugby Road.” It cites the glee club as claiming it’s only ever sung the first two verses. One has to wonder if the other 30 supposed verses Rubin Erdely uses to punctuate her article are just unofficial made-up verses in the tradition of so many others.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  27. Read More
    • Replies: @PatrickH
    I looked. S. Rubin Erdely apparently *writes about* con arttists and cons; she has not been found guilty of perpetrating them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  28. There are some good comments from current UVA students here:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/UVA/comments/2nfpt4/im_not_sure_jackies_story_is_real/

    One point is that Phi Psi doesn’t even do Fall Rush, so the timing of the story makes no sense.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  29. I know there are a lot of stupid 18 y/o College Freshman, but when I was 18 I doubt I would have committed a Class A felony that would put me in Prison for 20 years just to belong to a Fraternity.

    “Hey don’t worry pledges, let’s do this Gang Rape! The woman won’t talk, I won’t talk, and of course your fellow pledges who you hardly know, won’t talk either. We’l keep your Gang Rape secret – it will never be known.”

    Honest Injun!

    PS – Mind if I record it on my cellphone?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    And their parents will never ever encourage them to squeal on their fellow pledges to plea bargain.
    , @Suburban_elk
    That was pretty funny. I was going to go with,

    Rape. It's the new black.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  30. “The other women in the support group look up to her because she has the most awesome story about being raped.”

    And never named by name. The article ever provided solid proof, iirc. An invention of Eramo, Renda, and/or Rubin Erdely?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    No, there are articles out there with quotes from members of her rape victim's support group that she joined many months after the date of this supposed pre-planned traditional initiation gang rape.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  31. @Wilkey
    "The other women in the support group look up to her because she has the most awesome story about being raped."

    And never named by name. The article ever provided solid proof, iirc. An invention of Eramo, Renda, and/or Rubin Erdely?

    No, there are articles out there with quotes from members of her rape victim’s support group that she joined many months after the date of this supposed pre-planned traditional initiation gang rape.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  32. @Honesthughgrant
    I know there are a lot of stupid 18 y/o College Freshman, but when I was 18 I doubt I would have committed a Class A felony that would put me in Prison for 20 years just to belong to a Fraternity.

    "Hey don't worry pledges, let's do this Gang Rape! The woman won't talk, I won't talk, and of course your fellow pledges who you hardly know, won't talk either. We'l keep your Gang Rape secret - it will never be known."

    Honest Injun!

    PS - Mind if I record it on my cellphone?

    And their parents will never ever encourage them to squeal on their fellow pledges to plea bargain.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  33. So what are some possible alternatives?

    1) Jackie made up her rape as an excuse to explain why her grades went downhill or why she started using drugs.

    2) Jackie allowed herself to be gang-banged, then had second thoughts. There was a case like this at BYU, where a black female track star went to the home of several black football players, enjoyed a gang bang, then got upset and cried rape.

    3) It was a real rape, part of an elite initiation ritual to be used as blackmail should the members ever get out of line. (OK, so that’s a little bit out there.)

    4) Jackie’s just an attention whore. This certainly strikes me as the case for Emily Renda, who, iirc, didn’t press charges against her known rapist, either. Reading Renda’s Twitter feed, she strikes me as so uniformly and predictably leftist as to fit the profile of someone who’d make up a claim of rape claim for purely political purposes. Her current Twitter profile pic shows her at the White House, complete with ID badge. Get raped, go to White House. Score! She’s too embarrassed and traumatized to file charges, but not too embarrassed to and traumatized to give speeches and have her name and photo EVERYWHERE. (My apologies if she did indeed file charges.)

    These or any other explanation, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, as the leftists like to say.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  34. Another quote from reddit:

    Since you want different perspectives, I was heavily involved in my fraternity (exec board, and not this fraternity) and I never once heard any even slight whispering of anything even close to something like this. This is not to say at all that this didn’t happen, but I would wager strongly that the overwhelming majority of the UVA Greek community is just as completely shocked at this allegation. This incident is way, way outside the pale of anything I’ve ever heard reported even third or fourth hand.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  35. Let’s see..
    1. anonymity- we don’t know if ‘Jackie’ and ‘Drew’ are real people.
    2. many skeptics of campus rape claim rape accusations are really ‘regret rape’, wherein a girl got drunk and had sex with someone she wouldn’t have otherwise had sex with. This is denied by the pro-’rape culture’ crowd. This story fits perfectly with the latter; Jackie only had a sip (she was not drunk).
    3. She was penetrated with a beer bottle (extremely dangerous- likely to leave obvious signs of physical damage).
    4. She had large amounts of blood on her skirt, yet fled past crowds of people without anyone noticing/commenting. A goal of going to parties is ‘maybe something dramatic will happen’- something you can talk about to friends (I was there man!). A bloodied girl is pretty dramatic. The notion it would go unnoticed is pretty out there.
    5. Back to point 2: the concept of rape culture involves not only the unacknowledged prevalence of actual rape, but society’s (read men and women’s) unwillingness to believe the victim, and/or downplaying the seriousness of rape, as well as placing other considerations (future social advancement) ahead of those of the victim’s.

    It’s like a checklist was written up to counter the claims of critics of ‘rape culture’…
    She was sober, her friends didn’t help her, no one noticed her bloodies garments, the school didn’t believe/help her. It really is… perfect.

    The most unbelievable part of this story is the boy from Jackie’s “anthropology discussion group”, the last to rape her and the one who had trouble getting it up. Since when have anthro majors/students been in top sororities? They’re the most leftist students out there. Jock/thick types go for Communication Studies, but not anthro.

    Also, someone mentioned Tom Wolfe. I recall reading I Am Charlotte Simmons, and the sections dealing with Charlotte’s post rape/regret rape behavior are eerily similar- spending days indoors, failing classes. Indeed, Simmons came from a poor, small town West Virginia family (Jackie from small town Virginia), was always trying to impress her father, and was all of the things “Jackie” claims to be in the article- head of clubs, merit scholar, etc. The class difference is there- low class, striving Charlotte enters elite world, etc. This is even true (IIRC) of the alarm clock anecdote- the only way people knew she was there was because she would turn it off. Charlotte encounters her nemesis several times after the incident, and each time is left mute with fear.

    I’m not sure if I’m remembering the similarities accurately, and don’t have a copy handy, but it’d be worthwhile for someone who does to compare the two.

    That said, and as Steve has noted many times before, this is a big country, and bad things happen all the time. I don’t think we should discount the possibility- it’s the probability and literary similarities that have me skeptical.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dcite
    ". Indeed, Simmons came from a poor, small town West Virginia family (Jackie from small town Virginia), was always trying to impress her father, and was all of the things “Jackie” claims to be in the article- head of clubs, merit scholar, etc. "

    Charlotte Simmons was from North Carolina. The University she went to was probably Duke. The poorer people of N.C. used to dig holes and actually lived in them, a kind of dugout. Later they graduated to a kind of house and ate off of a picnic table. Yet she won a scholarship.
    What I always wondered was, why didn't Charlotte seek out some others who had her Christian background, and principles. All colleges have those kind of clubs and groups; some of them might have had some pretty awful people too, but her chances of finding friends was certainly better. Granted, under the pressures of the new environment, principles withered; but at least she would have been around people who not total aliens.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  36. Also frat date functions are not regular parties. Girls invited to these have some status and respect beyond random party girls. 3 extra friends wouldn’t be welcomed to tag along

    Most frat gang rape stories follow a similar MO:
    Drunk or drugged girl unable to consent
    Pledges too drunk or stupid to realize that

    This story involved 9 people engaging in conspiracy, aggravated battery, an unquestionably nonconsenting victim. there just aren’t that many sociopaths out there like that per capita for no one in that room to object

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  37. Crowdsourcing is probably a good way of ferreting out the truth in cases of false charges. This is particularly true for a crime like rape where the ‘victim’ is totally out of bounds to the point where his or her identity is concealed and their past cannot be taken into consideration.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  38. I did read the article (well the first few paragraphs anyway) when it first came out and it didn’t seem right so I stopped reading. I also scanned some comments and remember someone pointing out that the dialog seemed totally contrived.

    I don’t trust any crap coming out of that publication, and normally I pretty much just read Matt Taibbi’s stuff. Have you read his latest expose about how this stunning blonde is bringing JP Morgan Chase down? Just like in the movies, except maybe she will be played by someone ten years younger when the movie is made.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-9-billion-witness-20141106

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  39. @Honesthughgrant
    I know there are a lot of stupid 18 y/o College Freshman, but when I was 18 I doubt I would have committed a Class A felony that would put me in Prison for 20 years just to belong to a Fraternity.

    "Hey don't worry pledges, let's do this Gang Rape! The woman won't talk, I won't talk, and of course your fellow pledges who you hardly know, won't talk either. We'l keep your Gang Rape secret - it will never be known."

    Honest Injun!

    PS - Mind if I record it on my cellphone?

    That was pretty funny. I was going to go with,

    Rape. It’s the new black.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  40. I broke down and read the whole Rolling Stone article. The details of the violence and broken glass table struck me as fishy, as it did many other commenters. I thought to myself, that isn’t how college students rape. They don’t use violence; they get the young women drunk. I noticed that the other rapes described in the article were of the alcohol or drug type. These all struck me as much more probable.

    This thought made me reconsider Jackie’s story. Looked at from another angle, Jackie’s claim that she poured out her drink then leads some credence to her tale. What if her attackers had expected her to be drugged? They wouldn’t have expected her to put up a fight. They would have expected her to have uncertain memories about what happened that night or to have experienced a total blackout. This is consistent with Drew’s later nothing-untoward-happened act.

    Frat boys gang raping someone in broken glass is still fishy, but considering the possibility that they thought she was mentally altered before the rape took place does make it more plausible.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  41. Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    I completely agree that this bodice ripper tale reads like a Glass fabrication. Indeed, when I first read it, my immediate reaction was: “Am I the only person who gets a strong Jukt Micronics vibe from the lurid @RollingStone #UVa piece?” It’s weird how Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, and basically every other professional conservative took it at face value.

    Three thoughts:

    1) The absurd caricature of guys who get so pumped up from partying, that they just decide to break into a three hour gang rape, during which it turns out they are all sadomasochists who happen to enjoy screwing on broken glass, and which they finish off with a beer bottle (’cause they’re such Bros!), could only be deemed plausible by someone who has no clue about how college men actually think. You’d have be pretty high on Andrea Dworkin’s farts (like Ross and Rod are, apparently) before any of this started to seem reasonable. It actually reminds me of hate crime hoaxes perpetrated by clueless agitators who think it plausible that white racists are going to be motivated to go down to the Critical Diversity Studies department and put “White” and “Coloured” signs on the bathrooms. Both are dreamed up by people who despise but do not even remotely understand their opponents.

    2) What proportion of the “Ban the frats!” crowd do you think responded to the Rotherham revelations with a hearty “Ban the mosques!”? Zero, I am guessing. The determinant of whether an incident reveals the “true rot at the core of the institution” vs. “just a few bad apples” is entirely determined by prejudice. (See also the Newtown massacre that is an indictment of home schooling vs. every other school massacre which in no way indicts state schooling.)

    3) The fact that top school brass and the frat itself are going into a fetal position suggests that something lurid did happen which they don’t want to talk about. I agree with Anonymous that:

    Most likely if it’s true it was some sort of premeditated or drunken group sex/gang bang situation, rather than gang rape, with the girl regretting it and feeling so embarrassed and bad about it afterwards

    Strange times.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NOTA
    This story seems very fishy, but I have no idea if it happened. Weird, implausible things do sometimes happen, outlandish stories sometimes turn out to be true, etc. I think there are a lot of people who would like it to be true, because it fits their political or social goals, and that worries me--I don't know whether anyone will bother investigating the details of the case, because there's so much motivation to want it to be true, and because anyone critically investigating it is so easy to call nasty names for their patriarchal victim-blaming denialist evilness.

    The parallel that comes to mind is the stories about ritual sexual abuse of children that were in vogue for a few years there. These stories made newspapers and talk shows for years, and got very little overt skepticism, even though they were incredibly implausible. They appear to have been driven by a combination of therapists' abilities to plant "recovered" memories in victims (especially children) and prosecutors' ambitions. People went to prison for these crimes, many of which were about as plausible as your average alien abduction story.

    Now, before and during this imaginary panic, there was actually a decades-long informal conspiracy in the Catholic Church to protect priests accused of sexually abusing adolescent boys from prosecution. In many ways, this was as big and horrible as these bizzarre satanic abuse stories, except it really happened. (And it turns out you don't need devil worship to diddle a lot of kids--a big bureaucracy in damage-control mode and a policy of quieting down scandals and moving the priests along to the next parish, plus a relatively small fraction of abusive priests, did the trick just fine.)

    I wonder if some of the emotional steam and support for those witch-hunt-like prosecutions came from people who knew or suspected about the Church (and many other organizations') abuses. And in a similar way, I wonder how much of the steam behind wanting to believe this story is based on the less spectacularly awful but way-too-common bit where some girl goes to a party, gets drunk, and some guy fucks her while she's half-conscious, or she wakes up naked in some guy's bed.

    It's very common to see activists willing to push forward a story they know or suspect is bullshit, because while it is not true, it gets out a message they see as valuable. Unfortunately, it's almost as common to see partisans justify that sort of thing when it's done by someone on their side.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  42. “Frat boys gang raping someone in broken glass is still fishy, but considering the possibility that they thought she was mentally altered before the rape took place does make it more plausible.”

    Raping a girl in a dark room on a floor covered in broken glass is 8 million percent implausible. And consider that the broken glass happened at the beginning of the rape. They could have backed out with little harm done.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  43. We can’t forget one other point underlying this story…..

    The great leftist fear over white gentile straight males getting together in organizations.

    The left has done a job in the last century of thoroughly dismantling organizations that catered to white straight gentile males. Either by forcibly targeting them for extinction/extreme marginalization—the KKK, the Birchers, ethnic associations—-or by infiltration so that the organization becomes leftist-oriented—unions, the Catholic church.

    Beginning in the 1960s you saw a big shit in the pop culture depiction of fraternities. Formerly, they were depicted either as fun-loving, goofy organizations or else serious social clubs where a smart man could make connections. Following the 1960s, they were depicted as evil male-dominated racist organizations hell bent on oppression of the innocents. Especially Southern frats, which are now depicted as little more than feeders for Neo-Nazi organizations that apparently run everything still today.

    The left is terrified that white gentile males might again get organized into groups the way they have. Much like basic guerrilla warfare manuals dictate, the organized oppressor army (i.e. the left) is tasked with continuously destabilizing guerrilla alliances (i.e. the anti-left) in order to prevent them from forming a coherent opposing army. These types of articles are merely part of the psych warfare of the left against attempts to reorganize—”join a frat and we’ll arrest you on false rape charges and smear your reputation, you evil white males!”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    There's an all-black movie from about ten years ago, "Stomp the Yard," set at an all black college that depicts the black fraternity very positively.
    , @Ivy
    Of course, the next logical step is for the SJW sisterhood/fellow travelers to try to crack open Skull and Bones and similar clubs
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  44. @whorefinder
    We can't forget one other point underlying this story.....

    The great leftist fear over white gentile straight males getting together in organizations.

    The left has done a job in the last century of thoroughly dismantling organizations that catered to white straight gentile males. Either by forcibly targeting them for extinction/extreme marginalization---the KKK, the Birchers, ethnic associations----or by infiltration so that the organization becomes leftist-oriented---unions, the Catholic church.

    Beginning in the 1960s you saw a big shit in the pop culture depiction of fraternities. Formerly, they were depicted either as fun-loving, goofy organizations or else serious social clubs where a smart man could make connections. Following the 1960s, they were depicted as evil male-dominated racist organizations hell bent on oppression of the innocents. Especially Southern frats, which are now depicted as little more than feeders for Neo-Nazi organizations that apparently run everything still today.

    The left is terrified that white gentile males might again get organized into groups the way they have. Much like basic guerrilla warfare manuals dictate, the organized oppressor army (i.e. the left) is tasked with continuously destabilizing guerrilla alliances (i.e. the anti-left) in order to prevent them from forming a coherent opposing army. These types of articles are merely part of the psych warfare of the left against attempts to reorganize---"join a frat and we'll arrest you on false rape charges and smear your reputation, you evil white males!"

    There’s an all-black movie from about ten years ago, “Stomp the Yard,” set at an all black college that depicts the black fraternity very positively.

    Read More
    • Replies: @whorefinder

    There’s an all-black movie from about ten years ago, “Stomp the Yard,” set at an all black college that depicts the black fraternity very positively.
     
    lol Steve. I know you like trolling us in a good-natured-ribbing way. Well done, sir.

    For those of you not paying attention, I mentioned how white straight gentile male groups are under attack, and mentioned frats. Steve good-naturedly countered with a black male frat depicted positively.

    Well any black male group will be depicted as positive in some way (unless right wing, in which case Uncle Toms/totally evil).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  45. The shattered glass table really does make this sound like a Shattered Glass tale.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Percy Gryce

    The shattered glass table really does make this sound like a Shattered Glass tale.
     
    Although it is a central detail in the narrative, maybe the shattered glass table is a kind of journalistic Easter egg?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  46. There is an easy way to get to the bottom of this story.

    Someone should report it to the police. The alleged victim should give the police the names of the three friends and the police should question them. If the story is true, the friends conspired to obstruct justice and the alleged victim is legally required to cooperate in their prosecution. If its not true, then ….

    Also, there should be a lot of blood evidence in the room. It should still be there, and could be tested. But if there is no blood, then ….

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  47. Even though many of the allegations are hard to believe, I too was sucked into the narrative–I have a daughter who may go to UVA in a few years. But when I repeated the story to a friend, I realized that it was largely unbelievable–not just the attack but the reactions of every single person afterwards. The following I actually found to be the most incredible passage in the whole article:

    She was having an especially difficult time figuring out how to process that awful night, because her small social circle seemed so underwhelmed. For the first month of school, Jackie had latched onto a crew of lighthearted social strivers, and her pals were now impatient for Jackie to rejoin the merriment. “You’re still upset about that?” Andy asked one Friday night when Jackie was crying. Cindy, a self-declared hookup queen, said she didn’t see why Jackie was so bent out of shape. “Why didn’t you have fun with it?” Cindy asked. “A bunch of hot Phi Psi guys?” One of Jackie’s friends told her, unconcerned,”Andy said you had a bad experience at a frat, and you’ve been a baby ever since.”

    If there is any truth to any of those reactions, I think we can safely say that feminism as generally conceived has utterly failed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dahlia
    Yes. Poorly scripted from beginning to end.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  48. @WowJustWow
    The shattered glass table really does make this sound like a Shattered Glass tale.

    The shattered glass table really does make this sound like a Shattered Glass tale.

    Although it is a central detail in the narrative, maybe the shattered glass table is a kind of journalistic Easter egg?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  49. As to why so many people uncritically believe it:

    for the most part, because they want to. It serves the agenda (anti-college rape movement), or preconceptions (anti-fraternity).

    But as to the others (Rod Dreher, Ross Doughat), who aren’t advocates of the agenda or specifically preconceptions: I’m not familiar with Ross, but Rod is a bit of a credulous guy. For a former journalist, he really doesn’t understand how to question (either literally or intellectually). He’d make a terrible detective, albeit a good counsellor. A living Stuart Smiley.

    joeyjoejoe

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  50. .
    I was incredulous at the first line.
    .

    Sipping from a plastic cup, Jackie grimaced, then discreetly spilled her spiked punch onto the sludgy fraternity-house floor.

    .
    Okay, she doesn’t want to drink it. I understand that idea. But she pours it out on the floor? Who in the hell does that? She is a real piece of work. We have all been served something we didn’t like or want at some point and we didn’t want it known that we didn’t want it. But who the hell thinks they can pour a drink out on the floor of someone’s house/club/bar and that it is somehow discreet? Seriously? Discreet? pouring your drink out on the floor is discreet? Like no one is going to notice a big ass puddle right next to you?

    Would it ever, ever enter your mind to pour your drink out on the floor? the floor!!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  51. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A big reason there’s dispute over the story is because there are two different notions of rape that people have in mind. There is the more traditional idea which involves overt physical force to force sex upon a woman. Then there’s the more contemporary notion in which a woman has leeway to classify any sex act as rape even if there’s no violent force or apparent lack of consent involved. If a woman wakes up the next morning and feels she was raped, regardless of what actually happened or the circumstances the night before, then according to the contemporary notion of rape, then she was raped.

    If you read the Rolling Stone article carefully, it’s clear that what’s depicted isn’t a gang rape according to the more traditional notion of rape. What’s depicted is a gang bang. She apparently consented or at least didn’t resist during the sexual act, and afterwards considered it rape either because she regretted it or because she felt that she couldn’t resist during the act.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  52. […] Source: Steve Sailer […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  53. No, she exists, she’s a leading personality in the UVA rape crisis support group. The other women in the support group look up to her because she has the most awesome story about being raped.

    If she exists, then that lends credence to the idea that she willingly participated in a gang bang, and only later came up with the rape narrative. If she’s not a total sociopath, then it would be very hard for her to make up and maintain a story like that out of whole cloth, and far easier to embellish and change the tone of real events. It would be far easier to displace her revulsion at her own behavior onto imaginary (deserving, in her mind) targets than to invent it out of whole cloth.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  54. Dahlia says:

    Steve,
    You have no idea how glad I am that you brought this up. Something is wrong with that article and I’m not sure what all is wrong, but most of it. If you aren’t familiar with it, the crux is that there is an ongoing rape epidemic, with scenes as described within, going back to at least the 80s.

    I read it and was absolutely horrified by the evil that had taken place and never questioned it…and since the moment I finished it, I can’t stop thinking about how BIZARRE it is. The world, but especially a large segment of it that I wasn’t that familiar with (state university or any four year college institution) became far more evil than I had believed and I was trying to make sense of this!

    I am a Southerner who did have a problem with a man (married couple, actually) when I was in college. Nothing criminal, just being harassed. Not stalking, etc., he just wouldn’t take no for an answer. Not only was the college not a problem, it provided the solution. Not only did they solve my problem, but the middle-aged men and women I turned to for moral support and guidance set off a chain of events that put an end to a crime spree that had been going on for about ten years!!! (Unknown to any of us, this married couple turned out to be kind of like Paul Bernardo/Karla Homolka meets Bill Cosby; no murder, but the girls were teens, some as young as twelve).

    I read that article, and the intonations that this is going on on college campuses everywhere and has been for decades and kept comparing it to my situation. I’m like hell, I mean HELL! I must be the luckiest girl who ever lived!!! I knew I’d been blessed, but… HELL! I even started to feel bad about myself because some of the things that were said and done in the early stages of my drama were not only not done with these girls, *but they weren’t even brought up to be batted down as why they couldn’t or wouldn’t be done* and since I went to community college well it must be a *class* difference I supposed.
    For example, I went to my mom first thing when this guy and his wife began to be creepy; I lived at home and she was my best friend. She’s pretty liberal and was laid back about it far longer than other family members would have been, but when it reached a certain point, she told this man, “If you look at my daughter ever again, I will kill you.” She meant it, too.
    These women don’t tell their mothers, family members, etc. anything and nobody threatens bodily harm; the women don’t even bring up *not* telling family because they are afraid how crazy upset these family members might become… I guess my family’s far more redneck than I knew if my fellow Southerners aren’t doing this (but I have so much family with bachelors degrees that I know this isn’t true! “What gives with these people, man! Bizarre, bizarre!” I’m thinking.)

    The next step in my saga was really perplexing when contrasting it with UVA because the people were so quintessentially Southern…
    There were only four other people involved. Mom shut the guy down and he never caused another problem for me, but these others played a role in exposing the couple which sent them to prison for years.

    -Steve, my trusted middle-aged teacher who I talked with constantly outside of class about the world, the way criminals thinks, etc., was law enforcement. He told me to “…you didn’t hear this from me, but get your boys” and have them find this man and beat him. I didn’t have any boys as my parents were divorced and they were all faraway. He was my moral support and backed me up on my intuition that this couple was dangerous.
    -My step-sister. Highly intuitive and knows everyone in town. She read his letters and immediately recognized that this couple was grooming me and were classic sexual predators. My mom disagreed with her interpretation. My sister then asks if she can take them to use as aids for a class she was teaching on identifying sexual predators (seriously) for health care workers. She lied. She took it straight to the State’s Attorney and his wife.
    -The State’s attorney’s wife. She was involved with the college and had informally become my guidance counselor before all this; we happened to be close. She knew my sister professionally as well as personally going back decades.
    -The State’s attorney. Highly intuitive man who had put away one of the most famous serial killers in American history when he was fresh out of school.
    They investigated and then watched this couple, waiting for them to slip up, and several months later, they did just that giving them an excuse to enter their home which turned out to be a complete horror show.

    Anyway, I share this because I believe their behavior, intelligence, good decency, and desire to quell problems is what is normal. Frankly, America *looks* like many people just like them exist.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  55. I have a lot of doubts, not the least of which is the nature of Frat guys and women. Believe it or not, even in College there is a shortage of hot women. There is always going to be a guy who has it bad for any reasonably attractive woman, and a frat victimizing a woman like in the story is going to generate that guy into a lifetime enemy; that’s just the way White guys are in particular. Often probably a fellow frat member. There is nothing, nothing White guys embrace more than chivalrous White knight defender of helpless women. Its innate, hard wired, doubtless genetic.

    And what is the point of BEING in a Frat in the first place? A. Women. B. Women. C. Women. D. Women. E. Social Connections. F. Women. A frat is for guys with something going for them, to come together and get the best women at the most exclusive parties. A dorm blowout with drunken foolery? With just anyone getting in? Nope a frat party is like an exclusive VIP section at a club with a celebrity. You get upscale drinks, not cheap keggers, its not crowded with half the university, the music is better, and the women are better and invited. After all, the women are the potential girlfriends of the frat brothers. That’s why they are there. Its why the Frat mostly exists.

    The University is an ugly place for unconnected men and women. Frats and Sororities exist as a social intermediation institution, a place to connect each other and exist in a smaller subsection of a big University.

    Yes, broken glass would cause a lot of bleeding, comment, and wouldn’t be conducive to sex. Dark enough to “mask” the identities but the putative victim can still identify them all. Rape as initiation going on for years, without some guy getting mad that his intended girl is the victim? Smells to high heaven, when we KNOW how rape occurs on and around campuses.

    Its: A. Violent Stranger Rape like the dead coed allegedly raped and murdered by the Black ex-con out on other rape/assault charges; B. socially powerful men like Bill Cosby or BBC Presenter Jimmy Saville or Roman Polanski quashing rape charges through influence pulling, power of fame, and influence of powerful friends.; C. Muslim gangs running rampant and protected by PC officials courting their votes and hating their White lower / working class victims. Those are the three kinds of real rape we’ve seen. Jerry Sandusky falls into Category B, obviously.

    My guess, a case of regret-rape, where said victim had sex with ONE guy, and concocted the rape story to get back at the one guy. That’s consistent with other known cases of rape fraud (which carries no real penalty for the accuser) and fits in with feminist theory that any sex a woman regrets even years later is rape. More evidence of the HATE HATE HATE for beta males that women exhibit. Some White feminist was raped (rape-rape according to Whoopi Goldberg) in Haiti, and blamed … White guys. Likely the guy the woman had sex with was all Beta male, clinging, supplicating, complimenting, and thus utterly repulsive. Hence the ridiculous story to garner sympathy. Munchausen Syndrome is a real problem among women today.

    If the story were true, many other women victims would have come forward. There’d be lawsuits aplenty. Men plea bargaining. This stinks to high heaven.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hallie Scott Kline
    I agree. Just finished reading her story. No way did this happen.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  56. @whorefinder
    We can't forget one other point underlying this story.....

    The great leftist fear over white gentile straight males getting together in organizations.

    The left has done a job in the last century of thoroughly dismantling organizations that catered to white straight gentile males. Either by forcibly targeting them for extinction/extreme marginalization---the KKK, the Birchers, ethnic associations----or by infiltration so that the organization becomes leftist-oriented---unions, the Catholic church.

    Beginning in the 1960s you saw a big shit in the pop culture depiction of fraternities. Formerly, they were depicted either as fun-loving, goofy organizations or else serious social clubs where a smart man could make connections. Following the 1960s, they were depicted as evil male-dominated racist organizations hell bent on oppression of the innocents. Especially Southern frats, which are now depicted as little more than feeders for Neo-Nazi organizations that apparently run everything still today.

    The left is terrified that white gentile males might again get organized into groups the way they have. Much like basic guerrilla warfare manuals dictate, the organized oppressor army (i.e. the left) is tasked with continuously destabilizing guerrilla alliances (i.e. the anti-left) in order to prevent them from forming a coherent opposing army. These types of articles are merely part of the psych warfare of the left against attempts to reorganize---"join a frat and we'll arrest you on false rape charges and smear your reputation, you evil white males!"

    Of course, the next logical step is for the SJW sisterhood/fellow travelers to try to crack open Skull and Bones and similar clubs

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Of course, the next logical step is for the SJW sisterhood/fellow travelers to try to crack open Skull and Bones and similar clubs

     

    This sounds about right. The college I attended had just a few non-national frats, so I wasn't very familiar with the Greek scene -- or its enemies. But I recall during the early years of the W administration, I was talking to a friend who'd gone lefty over the years. He said W was 'just a frat boy', with a measure of hissing contempt I'd never previously associated with the term (hey, who didn't love "Animal House", right?).

    There are only so many cultural bastions left to storm and conquer. In a way, it's surprising frats and clubs have survived this long, given the hostility of the environment in which they're embedded.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  57. No, she exists, she’s a leading personality in the UVA rape crisis support group. The other women in the support group look up to her because she has the most awesome story about being raped.

    The reason “Jackie” hasn’t gone to the police is that anonymity is awesomer than actually going to court to get an attacker convicted.

    As an anonymous accuser, she can say whatever the hell she wants without being cross-examined. In court, even if the papers didn’t put her name out there, she’d have to back up her story, and she’d be named. This is why I take women who actually take a rape accusation to trial seriously: they are on the public record and they are willing to face the defense.

    Nevertheless, rape charges result in more false convictions than any other category of crime — by far.

    The Innocence Project might as well be named the “Relief Society for the Wrongfully Convicted of Rape.” Last I checked over 60% of the exonerated prisoners had been convicted of rape. Unfortunately, many innocent men will never be exonerated because there’s no physical evidence and it all came down to he said she said.

    Really disappointing to see Rod Dreher so credulous where these matters are concerned. Maybe if he’s so worried about his daughter he should teach her not to go unattended into men’s rooms during drinking parties. Back in the old days, at least girls and their parents knew what it meant to hang out in a sexually integrated drinking establishment, AKA a saloon.

    Today, it seems, no God-fearing man’s daughter should be kept out of one.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  58. Let’s review:
    1) I belonged to a fraternity in college.
    2) The “power” guys committed at least two group rapes that I knew about.
    3) Nobody reported it due to the usual college -level moral thinking.

    (I quit the fraternity a year later.)

    The story has implausible details. Does not change it to an implausible story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    From where I stand it looks like you simply made it up.

    For example, you didn't tell us about the broken glass table and how they raped her/them right there without cleaning it up.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  59. This story set off my BS detector too, but so did the accusations against Bill Cosby. Who knows?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  60. Well, like most here, I think the UVA fraternity story is BS, too.

    The more interesting thing is what happens to Mr. Richard Bradley.

    If he lives to publish more stuff like this in the MSM, we may in fact be seeing a change in the climate.

    If, on the other hand, he get the (figurative) cement overcoat pour encourager les autres…

    I for one will be watching what happens to him.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  61. @Ivy
    Of course, the next logical step is for the SJW sisterhood/fellow travelers to try to crack open Skull and Bones and similar clubs

    Of course, the next logical step is for the SJW sisterhood/fellow travelers to try to crack open Skull and Bones and similar clubs

    This sounds about right. The college I attended had just a few non-national frats, so I wasn’t very familiar with the Greek scene — or its enemies. But I recall during the early years of the W administration, I was talking to a friend who’d gone lefty over the years. He said W was ‘just a frat boy’, with a measure of hissing contempt I’d never previously associated with the term (hey, who didn’t love “Animal House”, right?).

    There are only so many cultural bastions left to storm and conquer. In a way, it’s surprising frats and clubs have survived this long, given the hostility of the environment in which they’re embedded.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  62. @Steve Sailer
    There's an all-black movie from about ten years ago, "Stomp the Yard," set at an all black college that depicts the black fraternity very positively.

    There’s an all-black movie from about ten years ago, “Stomp the Yard,” set at an all black college that depicts the black fraternity very positively.

    lol Steve. I know you like trolling us in a good-natured-ribbing way. Well done, sir.

    For those of you not paying attention, I mentioned how white straight gentile male groups are under attack, and mentioned frats. Steve good-naturedly countered with a black male frat depicted positively.

    Well any black male group will be depicted as positive in some way (unless right wing, in which case Uncle Toms/totally evil).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  63. Trumpenprole [AKA "Blanco"] says:

    Nine pajama boys gang raping a coed at a southern college, ………ummmmmh…no! This crime is too dumb to have been perpetrated by anyone with even a modicum of self preservation. The girl, now the leader of the campus rape justice squad, gives talks in public telling her story. This doesn’t sound like a wallflower who would slink away from a gang rape and not do the right thing, like tell the authorities. However…
    If this is a story about a white girl dating a popular black athlete, and the fraternity a black fraternity, then the details of the story become a whole lot more plausible. The brutality and carelessness of the crime, as if they knew they would get away with it. The “friends” who discourage her from reporting the crime or seeing a doctor even though she is covered in blood. Or telling her to “get over it”. The dean and the administration trying to keep it on the quite. The story begins to have a certain Wolfesque quality.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  64. There was a UVA lacrosse player who beat his girlfriend to death at UVA 4 years ago.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  65. Sabrina Rubin Erdely worked with Steven Glass while both were students at Penn. She discussed this in a review of the movie Shattered Glass, that tells the story of his fabrications. Here are some selected highlights from her film review:

    I found the movie riveting—although, due to the personal connection, plus the fact that Shattered Glass portrays my own line of work (realistically, I might add), I’m an admittedly biased viewer. As the lights came up, however, I felt dissatisfied by the film, because it never attempts to resolve the big question: Why did he do it?

    All things considered, Glass’s fabrications and cover-ups probably took more time and effort (and produced more anxiety) than if he’d just done the reporting in the first place.

    These aren’t the actions of a person under strain, as I once tried to convince myself, or of a man-child being suffocated by his overbearing parents. They’re the actions of a sociopathic creep. The movie points in that direction, but doesn’t try to nail it down. What was Glass after? What was he running from? The movie ultimately doesn’t shed much light, and Stephen Glass himself isn’t telling. If, that is, he even knows.

    What seems to be confusing her (and I admit perhaps I’m reading too much into this) is that Glass went through all this stress and trouble for nothing. His lies did not support any agenda or narrative. They were just really interesting stories. And this confuses Rubin Erdely. It’s a bit of a stretch but would lying in support of a noble cause (Rape crisis Feminism) be more acceptable?

    And by the way, the most unbelievable part of the UVA rape story is the idea that Jackie lay on “shattered glass” while getting raped for three hours. I don’t mean to get all Zodiac Killer cryptic message here but is she not leaving us a little clue here are to the veracity of the story?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  66. My best guess (without reading the original).

    The version given by Rolling Stone is a post trauma nightmare. I had nightmares about a traumatic event or two during my childhood and cannot now disentangle the reality from the dreams.

    I think at some point “Jackie” was at a frat party, had too much to drink and got involved in some kind of…. train situation, that is semi-consentual sex with more than one guy.

    At some point thereafter she had a shame/remorse based nightmare or two about it and can truthfully no longer disentangle what really happened from her nightmare(s).

    There’s something very dreamlike about the story related (inlcuding people not reacting to her walking around bloodies and the side door she hadn’t noticed before).

    The glass table is telling. Someone being thrown through a window and not suffering life threatening injuries is a common Hollywood idea but in real life it doesn’t happen.

    The first step would be to fact check what happens to people who fall through glass tables. I did a quick google search and the couple of images that came up were pretty awful and my stomach is not strong enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I think at some point “Jackie” was at a frat party, had too much to drink and got involved in some kind of…. train situation, that is semi-consentual sex with more than one guy.

    At some point thereafter she had a shame/remorse based nightmare or two about it and can truthfully no longer disentangle what really happened from her nightmare(s).
     
    Right, but more likely than a "nightmare", it was probably stories about her going around campus that she eventually heard about. She was horrified and embarrassed, and subsequently rationalized and convinced herself that she wasn't the loose girl of the story, but a victimized person.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  67. According to the article a long time later on separate occasions guys harassed her, calling her “feminazi bitch” etc., and one of those guys “flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.” Maybe my English is bad, does this mean that the bottle broke on the side of her face, or only the flinging movement? Also, how plausible is it that a guy flings a bottle at someone’s face and there is only a bruise around the eye as a result? I would expect more serious damage even if the bottle doesn’t break. Or do I misunderstand something? Please help.

    I find the “feminazi bitch” part entirely plausible, though.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  68. 1. If this kind of gang rape is common on the university, then other women will come out and tell their story, like it happened with Bill Cosby. If no one comes out, it is a hoax.

    2. She should still have scars on her back from the broken glass

    We will probably never hear anything of this story, the misogynistic anthropologist will never be caught.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  69. The Innocence Project might as well be named the “Relief Society for the Wrongfully Convicted of Rape.” Last I checked over 60% of the exonerated prisoners had been convicted of rape.

    Yes, the accusations that it is forbidden to challenge are responsible for the major share of wrongfully convicted men. Another crack in the coalition of the oppressed. There is a post discussing this at the Handle’s Haus blog.

    [T]here seems to be a particular problem with memory errors and false remembrances (perhaps induced by a combination of intoxication and trauma) that especially plagues the accuracy of witness testimony in a rape case, but which is made worse (that is, more dangerous to arriving at an accurate verdict) because the erroneously reconstructed memory is genuinely felt to be real and clear with certainty by the victim herself. This gives her testimony particularly strong influence over the jurors.

    Keep in mind, any criminal justice system can only ever be as good as its evidence. It’s odd that we’ve famously exonerated several hundred innocent men for rapes they did not commit, and blamed ‘the system’, but never blamed the witnesses who gave the false testimony. We never took a hard look at the root cause and core problem – the origin of the poor quality of the evidence upon which ‘the system’ relied.

    And upon which it still relies, precisely because we never took that hard look. Because, again, that topic has become off-limits. Since that is unlikely to change, my counsel to men would be to avoid sex with strangers, which, anyway, is always good advice.

    https://handleshaus.wordpress.com/?s=innocence+project

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  70. Richard “Bradley” (né Blow) is kind of famously an unpleasant guy and perhaps not the best judge of character–his own, in particular. He’s the dude who forbade everyone at George–many of whom I know, embarrassingly–to say anything to the press in the wake of John Kennedy’s moronic death…then turned around and published a memoir of his time in The Presence.

    Nevertheless, his reaction was my immediate reaction to that piece too. The whole thing seems thoroughly fishy.

    As for Vernon “Pussyman” Jordan and Terry McAuliffe, I would take them as further indication that one’s first instincts are often correct. Richard Blow should write a book about that. It worked for Malcolm Gladwell, after all.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  71. If this happened the way it’s described, there wouldn’t be a single Greek on campus who wouldn’t have known about it. It’s a small group in relation to the overall campus community. Frats and sororities cooperate on social, charitable and other events. I can’t imagine that this particular frat wouldn’t have been ostracized, maybe not publically, but what sorority in their right minds would maintain a relationship with these morons?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  72. @Steve Sailer
    "“Jackie” is not a girl who lied. She is a girl who does not exist."

    No, she exists, she's a leading personality in the UVA rape crisis support group. The other women in the support group look up to her because she has the most awesome story about being raped.

    “Most awesome story about being raped.”

    So, please help my poor helpless lady brain with this. Do men share awesome stories about being mugged or is it only women who really adore being victims of violent crime?

    Have any of you actually known any women or do you rely on the opinions of WoW avatars with giant boobs?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  73. Dahlia says:

    There were other fantastical elements beyond what took place with this rape…did anyone else read that article?
    The most disturbing, and I am going by recollection here, was that some guy recognized her out in public for her anti-rape work and became so enraged that he smashes a glass bottle against her head or face.

    When I read that, the rape which I heretofore had believed was likely greatly embellished, became believable. The glass bottle smashing was so monstrous that all the other stuff, not just from Jackie but everyone who said that university has been hell on Earth became believable.

    As I alluded in my comment above, the rape story is the least of it. There is something wrong with the whole article.
    Things that we should expect to be said by at least one person aren’t. And because this situation goes back decades supposedly, nobody ever says or does these things that we’d expect.
    The commentary by other alumni saying that UVA suffers so much from rape and that this goes back decades doesn’t ring true. So much of this article reads like a movie script lacking depth.
    There would have been repercussions on behalf of at least a few women by their menfolk, friends or family. Or at least one out of a dozen would have said “I was afraid of what PawPaw and Daddy might do.” Other victims would be aware of such women’s networks and take stock in their own and how it compared.
    Other family is not brought up and we’d expect that. A girl who isn’t close enough to her mom to say anything would be aware that her relationship was not the norm and have felt the need to explain that. We’re never told about any of the women telling, or not telling, their moms or other family anything.

    There are other problems, too.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  74. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @hAL
    Let's review:
    1) I belonged to a fraternity in college.
    2) The "power" guys committed at least two group rapes that I knew about.
    3) Nobody reported it due to the usual college -level moral thinking.

    (I quit the fraternity a year later.)

    The story has implausible details. Does not change it to an implausible story.

    From where I stand it looks like you simply made it up.

    For example, you didn’t tell us about the broken glass table and how they raped her/them right there without cleaning it up.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  75. @Percy Gryce
    Even though many of the allegations are hard to believe, I too was sucked into the narrative--I have a daughter who may go to UVA in a few years. But when I repeated the story to a friend, I realized that it was largely unbelievable--not just the attack but the reactions of every single person afterwards. The following I actually found to be the most incredible passage in the whole article:

    She was having an especially difficult time figuring out how to process that awful night, because her small social circle seemed so underwhelmed. For the first month of school, Jackie had latched onto a crew of lighthearted social strivers, and her pals were now impatient for Jackie to rejoin the merriment. "You're still upset about that?" Andy asked one Friday night when Jackie was crying. Cindy, a self-declared hookup queen, said she didn't see why Jackie was so bent out of shape. "Why didn't you have fun with it?" Cindy asked. "A bunch of hot Phi Psi guys?" One of Jackie's friends told her, unconcerned,"Andy said you had a bad experience at a frat, and you've been a baby ever since."
     
    If there is any truth to any of those reactions, I think we can safely say that feminism as generally conceived has utterly failed.

    Yes. Poorly scripted from beginning to end.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  76. If it’s pitch black, how can she count the number of men in the room?
    Aside from that, this scandal could lead to a strange alliance between gamers and frat boys.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  77. @Wilkey
    Ever been with a group of intelligent people where one or a few start suggesting you do something really dumb? Eventually someone WILL chime in and say, "Hey, are you guys effing nuts?"

    It will always happen. These are three intelligent UVA students - one of the best schools in the country - with an alleged victim who is certainly bruised and cut beyond recognition, to the point of probably needing medical attention, and yet none of them says "Don't be stupid. We have to go to the police"?

    Bullshit. Just pure and utter bullshit. There is no way to validate this story. Virtually all of Rubin Erdely's sources are off the record. She found a school - a Southern school, with a fight song most of whose verses are almost certainly unofficial - and she thought the song would make great punctuation for her story.

    What's that great quote by Carl Sagan about religion that atheists are always repeating? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

    "Jackie" is not a girl who lied. She is a girl who does not exist. Rubin Erdely made her up out of whole cloth. She needs to provide evidence, or she needs to retract. And UVA needs to go on the offensive, and either demand that Rolling Stone supply the evidence or file a lawsuit. My guess is that with so many women in charge, they DON'T WANT to file a lawsuit. Gov. McAuliffe and the leftist women at UVA want it to be part of the "sexist universities" narrative.

    These are Mrs. Grundy morality tales. Of COURSE they aren’t going to go after the frat boys. Nor does the “victim” and Miss Rubin, her white knight, want them to. If the girls were any more specific about the supposed rapists they would be sued for slander and defamation, a fact the Rolling Stone attorneys doubtless made them painfully aware.

    These morality tales have a long history. I remember the first “Fate Worse Than Death” movie I saw. It was called “Where The Boys Are”. Yvette Mimieux, a cute, innocent, naive, shy, non-drinking white girl gets lured to a Spring Break party with some wealthy privileged college boys. The next thing we see, she is staggering down a highway, face smudged, vacant eyes, almost getting hit by several cars, and clearly in shock after suffering “The Fate Worse Than Death”.

    The lesson: “Have fun on Spring Break, girls, but watch out for roving gangs of rich white frat boys. They will take your Most Precious Possession!”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  78. Have no idea if this is true or not (many things seem very phony about it, as others have pointed out, especially the broken glass). But as for general college frat culture, or the perception of it, I do know that at my daughter’s sorority, at a large southern school, the girls are told to never accept a drink at a fraternity party. They are told to bring their own drinks in closed containers. And they are not allowed to attend fraternity parties alone. Whether or not this is acting out of a completely irrational fear or sensible precaution (or both), I don’t know. But as a Dad, I am glad they have the rule.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hepp

    Have no idea if this is true or not (many things seem very phony about it, as others have pointed out, especially the broken glass). But as for general college frat culture, or the perception of it, I do know that at my daughter’s sorority, at a large southern school, the girls are told to never accept a drink at a fraternity party. They are told to bring their own drinks in closed containers. And they are not allowed to attend fraternity parties alone. Whether or not this is acting out of a completely irrational fear or sensible precaution (or both), I don’t know. But as a Dad, I am glad they have the rule.
     
    This is interesting. As a skeptic of social justice warriors, my first instinct is to poke holes in this story. I know young men can be juvenile and brutish in our country, but is premeditated gang rape really plausible for middle class American guys? I assume they probably take liberties in the heat of the moment, but my preconception is that they wouldn't do something like this and it wouldn't be accepted socially. But it's important to challenge our assumptions, and I'm willing to be proven wrong.

    I'd be interested in hearing any stories from others who think stories like this are believable.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  79. I wonder if the girl is a natural confabulator and steadily elaborated the story over the last two years as she told and retold it to sympathetic, credulous listeners. One of the claims made in the Reddit thread is that she’s no longer on speaking terms with the journalist, which might reflect her dismay at seeing her absurd embroideries exposed to a national audience in cold black and white print.

    There could easily be a hard core of truth in her story. Strip away the lurid fantasy elements, and this kind of thing isn’t rare, or least wasn’t back in the 1980s when I was a student. I knew a girl who’d been “rape raped” by a guy in a basement at house party; another had lost her virginity at a first year mixer, being raped by several guys while passed out. Nothing was reported. Another girl had had group sex with five guys: she regretted the hit her reputation took but admitted she’d enjoyed the event itself quite a lot. A different person might have been tempted to cry rape.

    I’d give better than even odds that something along these lines happened in this case.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  80. Fact:

    I used to belong to a Frat in a Southern State;

    - We used to rape Co-eds nightly
    - With our empty Champagne bottles
    - While eating Caviar
    -And Listening to Rush Limbaugh

    That’s the truth. I quit after my first year though, when the Frat switched to Beer. I have my standards.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  81. Date rape is surprising easy to get away with, and it is being got away with, a lot. I have read of a couple of cases (one at a college), where a man took advantage of more than one naive girl. It’s he said she said and so it usually only gets prosecuted if they can put multiple victims before the court .

    I can believe the girl had something to drink (women vastly underestimates the effect alcohol has on them) and was raped by a date in a dark room. But a gang rape with injuries and blood drawn is something virtually impossible to get away with if the girl makes a complaint. And you would get 10 years.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  82. […] looks like Steve Sailer is on the story now. And some guy I never heard of is on the trail […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  83. Remember the scene in “Lawrence of Arabia” when Lawrence starts bleeding stripes through the back of his shirt, a souvenir from his tender reception by the Turks?

    [NB: Yes, at the "meta" level it's "funny" because maybe that didn't happen either]

    A few months ago, at the close of another peripatetic breakfast, I accidentally dropped my ceramic cereal mug on the linoleum. Whether it smacked my big toe instantly, or a shard ricocheted off it a microsecond later, I got an ugly nick that bled like a mofo. One little cut like that, and I’m trailing quarter-sized dollops of blood straight to the bathtub, where I soak it and then have to hobble around with a paper towel applying direct pressure for a half hour to staunch what was a basically invisible wound.

    Granted, I’m a bit thin-skinned. But she would have been lacerated like the living dead. And we should suppose they had this disaffected little street debate, with her standing there cut to a pulp?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  84. Do you remember when Andrea ‘jail bait’ Dworkin was raped by room service in a Parisian hotel?

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/jun/02/society

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Marcus Dixon's 15 year old white accuser had some unlikely aspects to her story as well. She said he took her jeans and underwear off with his legs. The jury didn't believe her though she had genital abrasion, bruises to the wrists and a fat lip.

    But sex with multiple men is something else even if a man was or claimed to be his accuser's boyfriend (as Dixon did and had his friends support him) a jury would have difficulty believing a teenage girl would have consensual group sex.

    Re Dworkin, Foreign women are frequently targeted for sexual assault judging by rapes cases reported in London. And then there is Dominique Strauss-Kahn ...

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Cliff Arroyo
    My best guess (without reading the original).

    The version given by Rolling Stone is a post trauma nightmare. I had nightmares about a traumatic event or two during my childhood and cannot now disentangle the reality from the dreams.

    I think at some point "Jackie" was at a frat party, had too much to drink and got involved in some kind of.... train situation, that is semi-consentual sex with more than one guy.

    At some point thereafter she had a shame/remorse based nightmare or two about it and can truthfully no longer disentangle what really happened from her nightmare(s).

    There's something very dreamlike about the story related (inlcuding people not reacting to her walking around bloodies and the side door she hadn't noticed before).


    The glass table is telling. Someone being thrown through a window and not suffering life threatening injuries is a common Hollywood idea but in real life it doesn't happen.

    The first step would be to fact check what happens to people who fall through glass tables. I did a quick google search and the couple of images that came up were pretty awful and my stomach is not strong enough.

    I think at some point “Jackie” was at a frat party, had too much to drink and got involved in some kind of…. train situation, that is semi-consentual sex with more than one guy.

    At some point thereafter she had a shame/remorse based nightmare or two about it and can truthfully no longer disentangle what really happened from her nightmare(s).

    Right, but more likely than a “nightmare”, it was probably stories about her going around campus that she eventually heard about. She was horrified and embarrassed, and subsequently rationalized and convinced herself that she wasn’t the loose girl of the story, but a victimized person.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PatrickH
    I find it easier to believe that she made the whole story up than that she consented to some kind of group situation and then lied about it. If she turned out to be the kind of fabulist who comes up with wild stories to get attention, then she might well be indifferent to or unaware of the threat that circulating such a story might pose to her future. If she were, on the other hand, a silly young woman who had a rough sexual encounter with a group of boys and regretted it afterwards, she would surely be aware that she was putting her future at risk.

    Remember that unlike Tawana Brawley and some other women who have become notorious for lying about being raped, she didn't tell her story in the heat of an awkward moment to appease an angry father or boyfriend. No one was hovering around asking her why she had come home so late, or just how she'd gotten pregnant, or anything like that.

    The fact that she told her wild story directly to a reporter suggests either (a) that she IS a fabulist, and made it all up to satisfy some neurosis (and that's why it was so hard to get names out of her), or (b) that the story, despite its strange anomalies which may indicate a faulty memory, is largely true.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  86. the story is complete crap.The attacks on white (Christian) frats is obvious. The enraging apathy toward black on white/black/Asian rape makes me want to strangle these snakes in the grass. recall that during the femc*nt hysteria at Duke,a black male got on campus and raped–legitimate rape,mind you–a young white girl. No one cared. The narrative is all. Whether the idea is to control white male sexuality thru a reign of terror—and btw some French lefties got their panties in a bunch because a French movie criticized the murderous Robespierre,they think he was a swell guy,and all the murders were quite helpful—or to destroy white male affiliations,esp among the better edumacated,this is a dirty lousy stinking war on white men. A collective reaction of civil disobedience,(How about an American Night of Glass on campus,kids?) will be necessary to push back on this scum. A bit OT but have you heard of the shooting at Nordstroms on Michigan Avenue here in Chicago the other day? One Nadia Ezaldein,a 22 year old U of C student,app. very smart,was gunned down by Marcus Dee,a rejected Don Juan. In my city if a young sympathetic black woman is gunned down,specially by her boyfriend,her picture will be on the front page,and will be shown relentlessly evry time the story is mentioned. I cant see a pic of this Nadia,nor her minority nutcase killer. Whyzzat??

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  87. @Bill B.
    Do you remember when Andrea 'jail bait' Dworkin was raped by room service in a Parisian hotel?

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/jun/02/society

    Marcus Dixon’s 15 year old white accuser had some unlikely aspects to her story as well. She said he took her jeans and underwear off with his legs. The jury didn’t believe her though she had genital abrasion, bruises to the wrists and a fat lip.

    But sex with multiple men is something else even if a man was or claimed to be his accuser’s boyfriend (as Dixon did and had his friends support him) a jury would have difficulty believing a teenage girl would have consensual group sex.

    Re Dworkin, Foreign women are frequently targeted for sexual assault judging by rapes cases reported in London. And then there is Dominique Strauss-Kahn …

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  88. […] from steve sailer’s blog. […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  89. Stories like this might lead to mass rape fatigue.

    Over at Bradley’s blog jimbojones made this comment:

    Boy cries wolf has become girl cries rape.

    On a tangent, you can’t have both sexual liberation and intolerance to rape. If you support sexual liberation, you are tolerant to rape. If you are against rape, then you should be for traditional values. What’s difference between rough sex and rape? An angry chick’s say-so. With murder, there is a body. With rape, there are some chick’s (probably fake) tears.

    A strong statement that gets to the heart of it.

    It is interesting though, the topic of rape and the ambiguity of what it means and how it applies on the sexual marketplace, and how that affects relationships between men and women, and adolescents, and what that means for fertility rates.

    The whole feminist cry “rape is rape!” and “no means no!” turns out not to be the case.

    When i was a younger man, a family friend who was a sweet young thing, moved out to Los Angeles with her family. And surprise! surprise! she was raped. This was in the early 90s and we were all concerned or whatever. There’s more to the story of course but it’s not appropriate for here, but the point is that the topic of rape and “rape” and false rape allegations – not just subjects for an After School Special. I think very few people from my peer group have not been directly affected with the drama of “rape”.

    In any case it’s all kind of preposterous that there is no intelligent conversation about it. There is the narrative courtesy of the feminist establishment at the university and there are the online argumentarians and their intellects and wits. Realistically there is supposed to be some middle ground hashed out in the courtrooms and in the halls of public opinion, and perhaps now that there is a reactionary pushback here and there we are seeing that. But that is not much … or is it?

    What matters more is what goes down in the courtrooms. The details about the Innocent Project as revealed in this thread, for instance.

    But the ambiguity of consent around sex, is what it has become. This confusion is Exhibit A in the Case of the Declining Country and Its Lost Rites.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  90. @Steve (not Sailer)
    Have no idea if this is true or not (many things seem very phony about it, as others have pointed out, especially the broken glass). But as for general college frat culture, or the perception of it, I do know that at my daughter's sorority, at a large southern school, the girls are told to never accept a drink at a fraternity party. They are told to bring their own drinks in closed containers. And they are not allowed to attend fraternity parties alone. Whether or not this is acting out of a completely irrational fear or sensible precaution (or both), I don't know. But as a Dad, I am glad they have the rule.

    Have no idea if this is true or not (many things seem very phony about it, as others have pointed out, especially the broken glass). But as for general college frat culture, or the perception of it, I do know that at my daughter’s sorority, at a large southern school, the girls are told to never accept a drink at a fraternity party. They are told to bring their own drinks in closed containers. And they are not allowed to attend fraternity parties alone. Whether or not this is acting out of a completely irrational fear or sensible precaution (or both), I don’t know. But as a Dad, I am glad they have the rule.

    This is interesting. As a skeptic of social justice warriors, my first instinct is to poke holes in this story. I know young men can be juvenile and brutish in our country, but is premeditated gang rape really plausible for middle class American guys? I assume they probably take liberties in the heat of the moment, but my preconception is that they wouldn’t do something like this and it wouldn’t be accepted socially. But it’s important to challenge our assumptions, and I’m willing to be proven wrong.

    I’d be interested in hearing any stories from others who think stories like this are believable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @steve (not Sailer)
    Interestingly, my daughter, who is NO social justice warrior, believes the story is real (at least in major part). And so do her friends. I am skeptical ... but I have to admit that I am glad my daughter is not.
    , @dcite
    Are you serious? The answer is yes. Of course. Released of domestic expectations, look at what soldiers do in war. Is that the same little boy who was such a good sport playing soccer.
    Not all degrade so easily, but like find like; drugs and alcohol do the rest. Sometimes the girls are genuine victims, and sometimes it's their own stupidity and irresponsibility that put them in that position. I don't know about this one. A bit of both, but I do think it's orchestrated somehow. Not sure why, and really don't want to think anymore about something so disturbing. I was never in such a situation, but I realize now it "was but for the grace of God, there go I."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  91. @Anonymous
    I completely agree that this bodice ripper tale reads like a Glass fabrication. Indeed, when I first read it, my immediate reaction was: "Am I the only person who gets a strong Jukt Micronics vibe from the lurid @RollingStone #UVa piece?" It's weird how Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, and basically every other professional conservative took it at face value.

    Three thoughts:

    1) The absurd caricature of guys who get so pumped up from partying, that they just decide to break into a three hour gang rape, during which it turns out they are all sadomasochists who happen to enjoy screwing on broken glass, and which they finish off with a beer bottle ('cause they're such Bros!), could only be deemed plausible by someone who has no clue about how college men actually think. You'd have be pretty high on Andrea Dworkin's farts (like Ross and Rod are, apparently) before any of this started to seem reasonable. It actually reminds me of hate crime hoaxes perpetrated by clueless agitators who think it plausible that white racists are going to be motivated to go down to the Critical Diversity Studies department and put "White" and "Coloured" signs on the bathrooms. Both are dreamed up by people who despise but do not even remotely understand their opponents.

    2) What proportion of the "Ban the frats!" crowd do you think responded to the Rotherham revelations with a hearty "Ban the mosques!"? Zero, I am guessing. The determinant of whether an incident reveals the "true rot at the core of the institution" vs. "just a few bad apples" is entirely determined by prejudice. (See also the Newtown massacre that is an indictment of home schooling vs. every other school massacre which in no way indicts state schooling.)

    3) The fact that top school brass and the frat itself are going into a fetal position suggests that something lurid did happen which they don't want to talk about. I agree with Anonymous that:

    Most likely if it’s true it was some sort of premeditated or drunken group sex/gang bang situation, rather than gang rape, with the girl regretting it and feeling so embarrassed and bad about it afterwards
     
    Strange times.

    This story seems very fishy, but I have no idea if it happened. Weird, implausible things do sometimes happen, outlandish stories sometimes turn out to be true, etc. I think there are a lot of people who would like it to be true, because it fits their political or social goals, and that worries me–I don’t know whether anyone will bother investigating the details of the case, because there’s so much motivation to want it to be true, and because anyone critically investigating it is so easy to call nasty names for their patriarchal victim-blaming denialist evilness.

    The parallel that comes to mind is the stories about ritual sexual abuse of children that were in vogue for a few years there. These stories made newspapers and talk shows for years, and got very little overt skepticism, even though they were incredibly implausible. They appear to have been driven by a combination of therapists’ abilities to plant “recovered” memories in victims (especially children) and prosecutors’ ambitions. People went to prison for these crimes, many of which were about as plausible as your average alien abduction story.

    Now, before and during this imaginary panic, there was actually a decades-long informal conspiracy in the Catholic Church to protect priests accused of sexually abusing adolescent boys from prosecution. In many ways, this was as big and horrible as these bizzarre satanic abuse stories, except it really happened. (And it turns out you don’t need devil worship to diddle a lot of kids–a big bureaucracy in damage-control mode and a policy of quieting down scandals and moving the priests along to the next parish, plus a relatively small fraction of abusive priests, did the trick just fine.)

    I wonder if some of the emotional steam and support for those witch-hunt-like prosecutions came from people who knew or suspected about the Church (and many other organizations’) abuses. And in a similar way, I wonder how much of the steam behind wanting to believe this story is based on the less spectacularly awful but way-too-common bit where some girl goes to a party, gets drunk, and some guy fucks her while she’s half-conscious, or she wakes up naked in some guy’s bed.

    It’s very common to see activists willing to push forward a story they know or suspect is bullshit, because while it is not true, it gets out a message they see as valuable. Unfortunately, it’s almost as common to see partisans justify that sort of thing when it’s done by someone on their side.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Suburban_elk
    An insightful post. Stories such as this one, that are fantastical and not believable, serve to express people's anger and confusion about the more common day to day problems and abuses that they suffer.

    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    But the fantastical creations are not reasoned out. As with this rape story, it has this poor girl and these aggressive fraternity boys, and the girl ends up a damsel in distress and the boys are caricatures of a thoughtless white penis.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  92. According to the article a long time later on separate occasions guys harassed her, calling her “feminazi bitch” etc., and one of those guys “flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.” Maybe my English is bad, does this mean that the bottle broke on the side of her face, or only the flinging movement? Also, how plausible is it that a guy flings a bottle at someone’s face and there is only a bruise around the eye as a result? I would expect more serious damage even if the bottle doesn’t break. Or do I misunderstand something? Please help.

    -Reiner Tor

    I have some experience with breaking glass myself, once with my own head in an auto accident. I was knocked out cold and woke up covered in blood and seeing stars (a scintillating scotoma to be precise). And, in a traffic altercation, I was once involved in a fistfight with a guy, and won. But that wasn’t the end of it. He came back with a baseball bat and smashed out my driver’s side window while I was at a stoplight, spraying glass into my face but missing my head with the bat. The tiny flying glass fragments cut up my face so badly that it was entirely covered with blood, and I had to pick slivers out with tweezers, including one from my eye! On another occasion, a black hit a friend of mine over the head with a champagne bottle at a high school party (for no discernible reason), causing my friend to fall to the ground and go into a seizure. A few years later, I saw a guy get hit in the face with a glass beer mug in a bar fight in Beijing, and the result was blood spattered all over the table and adjacent window. Every single time I’ve witnessed people forcefully collide with glass the result has been, at the very least, a bloody mess.

    So, to answer your question, getting smashed in the face by a glass bottle can really mess somebody up. As for being smashed through a glass table with a big guy on top of you, you’d be cut up very badly, possibly have a concussion and/or broken bones, and could plausibly die from blood loss even with prompt medical attention if you got cut or stabbed in an unlucky place, like the side of your neck.

    This woman is lying through her teeth about the glass smashing. My bet is she saw the movie “Boys Don’t Cry” and riffed off it. I believe there’s a similar scene in that movie, and a gang rape.

    Torn and Frayed may be on to something here. Chloe Sevigny starred in both “Shattered Glass” and “Boys Don’t Cry.” There’s often a common cultural theme or character behind the stories people make up — dishonest people like to borrow from other people’s stories. Come to think of it, Sabrina Rubin Erdely herself may have come up with some of the details.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face? I mean, I cannot believe this statement was printed in Rolling Stone. This is unbelievably stupid. Obviously it cannot be true. This would be grievous bodily harm, even life threatening, smashing a bottle on someone's face. If it's a woman (women tend to be smaller and more fragile), then all the more so.

    I still cannot believe that this statement (that a guy smashed a bottle on her face) really got printed out and that people (some people, at any rate) believe it or at least think it is possible. At least the editor and the journalist must have believed that it was possible. When in fact it's impossible. That's why I thought my English was at fault here: I think that no sane person would claim that a bottle was smashed on someone's face and all the person got as a result was a bruise around her eyes...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  93. @NOTA
    This story seems very fishy, but I have no idea if it happened. Weird, implausible things do sometimes happen, outlandish stories sometimes turn out to be true, etc. I think there are a lot of people who would like it to be true, because it fits their political or social goals, and that worries me--I don't know whether anyone will bother investigating the details of the case, because there's so much motivation to want it to be true, and because anyone critically investigating it is so easy to call nasty names for their patriarchal victim-blaming denialist evilness.

    The parallel that comes to mind is the stories about ritual sexual abuse of children that were in vogue for a few years there. These stories made newspapers and talk shows for years, and got very little overt skepticism, even though they were incredibly implausible. They appear to have been driven by a combination of therapists' abilities to plant "recovered" memories in victims (especially children) and prosecutors' ambitions. People went to prison for these crimes, many of which were about as plausible as your average alien abduction story.

    Now, before and during this imaginary panic, there was actually a decades-long informal conspiracy in the Catholic Church to protect priests accused of sexually abusing adolescent boys from prosecution. In many ways, this was as big and horrible as these bizzarre satanic abuse stories, except it really happened. (And it turns out you don't need devil worship to diddle a lot of kids--a big bureaucracy in damage-control mode and a policy of quieting down scandals and moving the priests along to the next parish, plus a relatively small fraction of abusive priests, did the trick just fine.)

    I wonder if some of the emotional steam and support for those witch-hunt-like prosecutions came from people who knew or suspected about the Church (and many other organizations') abuses. And in a similar way, I wonder how much of the steam behind wanting to believe this story is based on the less spectacularly awful but way-too-common bit where some girl goes to a party, gets drunk, and some guy fucks her while she's half-conscious, or she wakes up naked in some guy's bed.

    It's very common to see activists willing to push forward a story they know or suspect is bullshit, because while it is not true, it gets out a message they see as valuable. Unfortunately, it's almost as common to see partisans justify that sort of thing when it's done by someone on their side.

    An insightful post. Stories such as this one, that are fantastical and not believable, serve to express people’s anger and confusion about the more common day to day problems and abuses that they suffer.

    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    But the fantastical creations are not reasoned out. As with this rape story, it has this poor girl and these aggressive fraternity boys, and the girl ends up a damsel in distress and the boys are caricatures of a thoughtless white penis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @David R. Merridale
    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    This is an excellent comment that applies too to all kinds of political hysterias: sexual, racial, and environmental (to start with).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  94. @Bill P

    According to the article a long time later on separate occasions guys harassed her, calling her “feminazi bitch” etc., and one of those guys “flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.” Maybe my English is bad, does this mean that the bottle broke on the side of her face, or only the flinging movement? Also, how plausible is it that a guy flings a bottle at someone’s face and there is only a bruise around the eye as a result? I would expect more serious damage even if the bottle doesn’t break. Or do I misunderstand something? Please help.

    -Reiner Tor
     
    I have some experience with breaking glass myself, once with my own head in an auto accident. I was knocked out cold and woke up covered in blood and seeing stars (a scintillating scotoma to be precise). And, in a traffic altercation, I was once involved in a fistfight with a guy, and won. But that wasn't the end of it. He came back with a baseball bat and smashed out my driver's side window while I was at a stoplight, spraying glass into my face but missing my head with the bat. The tiny flying glass fragments cut up my face so badly that it was entirely covered with blood, and I had to pick slivers out with tweezers, including one from my eye! On another occasion, a black hit a friend of mine over the head with a champagne bottle at a high school party (for no discernible reason), causing my friend to fall to the ground and go into a seizure. A few years later, I saw a guy get hit in the face with a glass beer mug in a bar fight in Beijing, and the result was blood spattered all over the table and adjacent window. Every single time I've witnessed people forcefully collide with glass the result has been, at the very least, a bloody mess.

    So, to answer your question, getting smashed in the face by a glass bottle can really mess somebody up. As for being smashed through a glass table with a big guy on top of you, you'd be cut up very badly, possibly have a concussion and/or broken bones, and could plausibly die from blood loss even with prompt medical attention if you got cut or stabbed in an unlucky place, like the side of your neck.

    This woman is lying through her teeth about the glass smashing. My bet is she saw the movie "Boys Don't Cry" and riffed off it. I believe there's a similar scene in that movie, and a gang rape.

    Torn and Frayed may be on to something here. Chloe Sevigny starred in both "Shattered Glass" and "Boys Don't Cry." There's often a common cultural theme or character behind the stories people make up -- dishonest people like to borrow from other people's stories. Come to think of it, Sabrina Rubin Erdely herself may have come up with some of the details.

    So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face? I mean, I cannot believe this statement was printed in Rolling Stone. This is unbelievably stupid. Obviously it cannot be true. This would be grievous bodily harm, even life threatening, smashing a bottle on someone’s face. If it’s a woman (women tend to be smaller and more fragile), then all the more so.

    I still cannot believe that this statement (that a guy smashed a bottle on her face) really got printed out and that people (some people, at any rate) believe it or at least think it is possible. At least the editor and the journalist must have believed that it was possible. When in fact it’s impossible. That’s why I thought my English was at fault here: I think that no sane person would claim that a bottle was smashed on someone’s face and all the person got as a result was a bruise around her eyes…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dahlia
    Yes, that fantastical element was in the article. I had forgotten the feminazi b**** thing which is...wow.

    I'm not sure Jackie exists. Or she has been twisted beyond recognition.

    Stephen Glass Redux.
    , @Wilkey
    "So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face?"

    Was it Renda who claimed this happened, or "Jackie"?

    You don't give it much thought, but yeah, a bottle breaking upon hitting your face would have to hit with such force as to require medical attention. Not exactly an assault you just walk away from.

    UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties. Frankly, if you claim to be a victim of such a violent rape and HAVE NOT filed charges, your allegations should be assumed to be bullshit. If her story is true, this girl would have had plenty of evidence at her disposal when the rape occurred, and certainly would have required medical attention.

    My guess is that if any element of it is remotely true, she engaged in a gang-bang, perhaps while intoxicated, and regretted it, and made up the story to assuage her guilt or to make her seem like a victim rather than a stupid girl who let herself be screwed by seven men at once.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  95. Do men share awesome stories about being mugged or is it only women who really adore being victims of violent crime?

    During my first semester at the University of Kentucky my 8 am class was across the hall from a “Womyn’s Studies” class. Sitting out in the hall waiting for the classroom doors to be unlocked I would hear all of these “womyn” discussing their “rape fantasies”,for lack of a better term. They just knew they were going to be victims of evil men. Atwood’s “Handmaid’s Tale” was particularly ripe fodder for these fantasies.

    Rod Dreher

    Dreher is a self hating white man who loves to champion those “oppressed” by evil white men. Back when the Duck Dynasty racist story was big news, Dreher just knew that the old man’s memories were false because “civil rights” or something.

    Virginia has no statute of limitations for rape. So charges will be filed against this band of rapists, right? Right?

    If a woman can be too drunk to consent, can a man be too drunk to be held responsible for not getting consent? If two drunks have sex, are both of them guilty of rape?

    Read More
    • Replies: @NOTA
    There are surely ambiguous cases where both participants were drunk and there' s nothing remotely like rape involved. But there are also cases where a guy gets a girl drunk so he can have sex with her when she's too drunk to say no effectively, and some guys make a habit of this. Those guys belong in prison. One reason why they usually don't end up there is that the only witness with an incentive to report the crime was also too drunk to be a credible witness. Something similar happens with date rape; it's a hard crime to prosecute because it typically comes down to one person's word against another, with no physical evidence that is really decisive.

    I imagine this is behind the recent push to have campus authorities investigate sexual assault/rape allegations in a setting where they don't need to prove things like they do for a criminal trial. This strikes me as a pretty bad idea for a variety of reasons, but it's not crazy to want to solve the problem. Similarly, it's appealing to imagine that you could somehow impose some kind of change in sexual behavior that would eliminate these ambiguities, even though I'm very skeptical that such attempts (like the UC system is apparently trying) will work very well.
    , @dcite
    "Rape fantasies" differ from most of the actual crimes in two ways (one pointed out by a man): a woman fantasizing, chooses her "rapist." More or less. It's not the total annihilation and likely threat of death that real rape is. I have not been raped, but I was attacked and almost was. Annihilation is the only word, and no one willingly fantasizes that.

    The second way it differs from female fantasies (the real thing) is that is enacted by men. And women do not really understand male psychology of this nature, any more than men understand womens'. So yeah, there are "rape fantasies" but the kind of classes you're remembering encouraged that kind of person to attend and spew forth. For most, it goes as far as Rhett Butler and Scarlet O'Hara. That's the "fantasy."

    And btw, if females have these fantasies, you can be damn sure men have theirs. Porn is full of them. But the males are constrained by the law from such expressions. Sometimes I wish women were too.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  96. @Hepp

    Have no idea if this is true or not (many things seem very phony about it, as others have pointed out, especially the broken glass). But as for general college frat culture, or the perception of it, I do know that at my daughter’s sorority, at a large southern school, the girls are told to never accept a drink at a fraternity party. They are told to bring their own drinks in closed containers. And they are not allowed to attend fraternity parties alone. Whether or not this is acting out of a completely irrational fear or sensible precaution (or both), I don’t know. But as a Dad, I am glad they have the rule.
     
    This is interesting. As a skeptic of social justice warriors, my first instinct is to poke holes in this story. I know young men can be juvenile and brutish in our country, but is premeditated gang rape really plausible for middle class American guys? I assume they probably take liberties in the heat of the moment, but my preconception is that they wouldn't do something like this and it wouldn't be accepted socially. But it's important to challenge our assumptions, and I'm willing to be proven wrong.

    I'd be interested in hearing any stories from others who think stories like this are believable.

    Interestingly, my daughter, who is NO social justice warrior, believes the story is real (at least in major part). And so do her friends. I am skeptical … but I have to admit that I am glad my daughter is not.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  97. @reiner Tor
    So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face? I mean, I cannot believe this statement was printed in Rolling Stone. This is unbelievably stupid. Obviously it cannot be true. This would be grievous bodily harm, even life threatening, smashing a bottle on someone's face. If it's a woman (women tend to be smaller and more fragile), then all the more so.

    I still cannot believe that this statement (that a guy smashed a bottle on her face) really got printed out and that people (some people, at any rate) believe it or at least think it is possible. At least the editor and the journalist must have believed that it was possible. When in fact it's impossible. That's why I thought my English was at fault here: I think that no sane person would claim that a bottle was smashed on someone's face and all the person got as a result was a bruise around her eyes...

    Yes, that fantastical element was in the article. I had forgotten the feminazi b**** thing which is…wow.

    I’m not sure Jackie exists. Or she has been twisted beyond recognition.

    Stephen Glass Redux.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  98. @Suburban_elk
    An insightful post. Stories such as this one, that are fantastical and not believable, serve to express people's anger and confusion about the more common day to day problems and abuses that they suffer.

    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    But the fantastical creations are not reasoned out. As with this rape story, it has this poor girl and these aggressive fraternity boys, and the girl ends up a damsel in distress and the boys are caricatures of a thoughtless white penis.

    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    This is an excellent comment that applies too to all kinds of political hysterias: sexual, racial, and environmental (to start with).

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    This is an excellent comment that applies too to all kinds of political hysterias: sexual, racial, and environmental (to start with).
     

    I agree. The current campus rape narrative is yet again an example of an emptied-out and twisted Christian virtue (chastity) that still retains some of its former cultural power. Even though only the shell of the virtue remains, and it's now refilled with heretical content (i.e. the 'values' of the sexual revolution), a nostalgia for true chastity still resonates in the stories SJWs tell as they try to manage the sexual excess and abandon that characterize the campus hookup scene.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  99. @reiner Tor
    So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face? I mean, I cannot believe this statement was printed in Rolling Stone. This is unbelievably stupid. Obviously it cannot be true. This would be grievous bodily harm, even life threatening, smashing a bottle on someone's face. If it's a woman (women tend to be smaller and more fragile), then all the more so.

    I still cannot believe that this statement (that a guy smashed a bottle on her face) really got printed out and that people (some people, at any rate) believe it or at least think it is possible. At least the editor and the journalist must have believed that it was possible. When in fact it's impossible. That's why I thought my English was at fault here: I think that no sane person would claim that a bottle was smashed on someone's face and all the person got as a result was a bruise around her eyes...

    “So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face?”

    Was it Renda who claimed this happened, or “Jackie”?

    You don’t give it much thought, but yeah, a bottle breaking upon hitting your face would have to hit with such force as to require medical attention. Not exactly an assault you just walk away from.

    UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties. Frankly, if you claim to be a victim of such a violent rape and HAVE NOT filed charges, your allegations should be assumed to be bullshit. If her story is true, this girl would have had plenty of evidence at her disposal when the rape occurred, and certainly would have required medical attention.

    My guess is that if any element of it is remotely true, she engaged in a gang-bang, perhaps while intoxicated, and regretted it, and made up the story to assuage her guilt or to make her seem like a victim rather than a stupid girl who let herself be screwed by seven men at once.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dahlia
    There is no attribution given. The paragraph reads very odd and vague. Emily Renda and Jackie, in separate incidents, were harassed by men outside bars and called them "c***" and "feminazi b****". One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face...
    Jackie emails someone to discuss the attack.

    It reads like its describing a seamless, single incident, but it explained that the two women experienced this in separate incidents up front. Only "Jackie" is mentioned getting the bottle busted on her face. Out in public, outdoors, with witnesses. The cold administrator doesn't notice or show concern about Jackie's bruising at their next meeting.

    Is "Jackie" a fantastical composite and/or creation of this Emily Renda and the author? Renda was forgettable for me and I did forget her until others brought her up. I'm not anxious to slog through that article again.
    , @Wyrd
    "UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties."

    Teresa Sullivan, president of UVa, has accepted the story as gospel truth and she's using it to punish all fraternities on campus. She's a SJW through and through. There will be no critical examination of the facts, only further hysteria.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  100. Dahlia says:
    @Wilkey
    "So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face?"

    Was it Renda who claimed this happened, or "Jackie"?

    You don't give it much thought, but yeah, a bottle breaking upon hitting your face would have to hit with such force as to require medical attention. Not exactly an assault you just walk away from.

    UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties. Frankly, if you claim to be a victim of such a violent rape and HAVE NOT filed charges, your allegations should be assumed to be bullshit. If her story is true, this girl would have had plenty of evidence at her disposal when the rape occurred, and certainly would have required medical attention.

    My guess is that if any element of it is remotely true, she engaged in a gang-bang, perhaps while intoxicated, and regretted it, and made up the story to assuage her guilt or to make her seem like a victim rather than a stupid girl who let herself be screwed by seven men at once.

    There is no attribution given. The paragraph reads very odd and vague. Emily Renda and Jackie, in separate incidents, were harassed by men outside bars and called them “c***” and “feminazi b****”. One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face…
    Jackie emails someone to discuss the attack.

    It reads like its describing a seamless, single incident, but it explained that the two women experienced this in separate incidents up front. Only “Jackie” is mentioned getting the bottle busted on her face. Out in public, outdoors, with witnesses. The cold administrator doesn’t notice or show concern about Jackie’s bruising at their next meeting.

    Is “Jackie” a fantastical composite and/or creation of this Emily Renda and the author? Renda was forgettable for me and I did forget her until others brought her up. I’m not anxious to slog through that article again.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  101. @David R. Merridale
    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    This is an excellent comment that applies too to all kinds of political hysterias: sexual, racial, and environmental (to start with).

    People, in this case the families of American girls and others, are unable to get their hands and their heads around the big cultural problems that end up affecting them and their families, and so then fantastical epic stories that contain all the symbols and themes that need to be addressed.

    This is an excellent comment that applies too to all kinds of political hysterias: sexual, racial, and environmental (to start with).

    I agree. The current campus rape narrative is yet again an example of an emptied-out and twisted Christian virtue (chastity) that still retains some of its former cultural power. Even though only the shell of the virtue remains, and it’s now refilled with heretical content (i.e. the ‘values’ of the sexual revolution), a nostalgia for true chastity still resonates in the stories SJWs tell as they try to manage the sexual excess and abandon that characterize the campus hookup scene.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  102. @Wilkey
    "So the statement in the article really meant that a bottle was smashed on her face?"

    Was it Renda who claimed this happened, or "Jackie"?

    You don't give it much thought, but yeah, a bottle breaking upon hitting your face would have to hit with such force as to require medical attention. Not exactly an assault you just walk away from.

    UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties. Frankly, if you claim to be a victim of such a violent rape and HAVE NOT filed charges, your allegations should be assumed to be bullshit. If her story is true, this girl would have had plenty of evidence at her disposal when the rape occurred, and certainly would have required medical attention.

    My guess is that if any element of it is remotely true, she engaged in a gang-bang, perhaps while intoxicated, and regretted it, and made up the story to assuage her guilt or to make her seem like a victim rather than a stupid girl who let herself be screwed by seven men at once.

    “UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties.”

    Teresa Sullivan, president of UVa, has accepted the story as gospel truth and she’s using it to punish all fraternities on campus. She’s a SJW through and through. There will be no critical examination of the facts, only further hysteria.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Would she sing a different tune if Terry McAuliffe weren't the governor? She's already been fired once.
    , @NOTA
    Right, but is the reason she's going along with it because she wants it as a tool to hammer the fraternities? Or because she knows the school has been hushing up rapes on campus for years now, and she's familiar with similar stories? (In general, I'd expect universities with serious athletic programs to be complicit in hushing up rape cases involving athletes, but that may just be my biases creeping in.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  103. @Hepp

    Have no idea if this is true or not (many things seem very phony about it, as others have pointed out, especially the broken glass). But as for general college frat culture, or the perception of it, I do know that at my daughter’s sorority, at a large southern school, the girls are told to never accept a drink at a fraternity party. They are told to bring their own drinks in closed containers. And they are not allowed to attend fraternity parties alone. Whether or not this is acting out of a completely irrational fear or sensible precaution (or both), I don’t know. But as a Dad, I am glad they have the rule.
     
    This is interesting. As a skeptic of social justice warriors, my first instinct is to poke holes in this story. I know young men can be juvenile and brutish in our country, but is premeditated gang rape really plausible for middle class American guys? I assume they probably take liberties in the heat of the moment, but my preconception is that they wouldn't do something like this and it wouldn't be accepted socially. But it's important to challenge our assumptions, and I'm willing to be proven wrong.

    I'd be interested in hearing any stories from others who think stories like this are believable.

    Are you serious? The answer is yes. Of course. Released of domestic expectations, look at what soldiers do in war. Is that the same little boy who was such a good sport playing soccer.
    Not all degrade so easily, but like find like; drugs and alcohol do the rest. Sometimes the girls are genuine victims, and sometimes it’s their own stupidity and irresponsibility that put them in that position. I don’t know about this one. A bit of both, but I do think it’s orchestrated somehow. Not sure why, and really don’t want to think anymore about something so disturbing. I was never in such a situation, but I realize now it “was but for the grace of God, there go I.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  104. @BubbaJoe
    Let's see..
    1. anonymity- we don't know if 'Jackie' and 'Drew' are real people.
    2. many skeptics of campus rape claim rape accusations are really 'regret rape', wherein a girl got drunk and had sex with someone she wouldn't have otherwise had sex with. This is denied by the pro-'rape culture' crowd. This story fits perfectly with the latter; Jackie only had a sip (she was not drunk).
    3. She was penetrated with a beer bottle (extremely dangerous- likely to leave obvious signs of physical damage).
    4. She had large amounts of blood on her skirt, yet fled past crowds of people without anyone noticing/commenting. A goal of going to parties is 'maybe something dramatic will happen'- something you can talk about to friends (I was there man!). A bloodied girl is pretty dramatic. The notion it would go unnoticed is pretty out there.
    5. Back to point 2: the concept of rape culture involves not only the unacknowledged prevalence of actual rape, but society's (read men and women's) unwillingness to believe the victim, and/or downplaying the seriousness of rape, as well as placing other considerations (future social advancement) ahead of those of the victim's.

    It's like a checklist was written up to counter the claims of critics of 'rape culture'...
    She was sober, her friends didn't help her, no one noticed her bloodies garments, the school didn't believe/help her. It really is... perfect.

    The most unbelievable part of this story is the boy from Jackie's "anthropology discussion group", the last to rape her and the one who had trouble getting it up. Since when have anthro majors/students been in top sororities? They're the most leftist students out there. Jock/thick types go for Communication Studies, but not anthro.

    Also, someone mentioned Tom Wolfe. I recall reading I Am Charlotte Simmons, and the sections dealing with Charlotte's post rape/regret rape behavior are eerily similar- spending days indoors, failing classes. Indeed, Simmons came from a poor, small town West Virginia family (Jackie from small town Virginia), was always trying to impress her father, and was all of the things "Jackie" claims to be in the article- head of clubs, merit scholar, etc. The class difference is there- low class, striving Charlotte enters elite world, etc. This is even true (IIRC) of the alarm clock anecdote- the only way people knew she was there was because she would turn it off. Charlotte encounters her nemesis several times after the incident, and each time is left mute with fear.

    I'm not sure if I'm remembering the similarities accurately, and don't have a copy handy, but it'd be worthwhile for someone who does to compare the two.

    That said, and as Steve has noted many times before, this is a big country, and bad things happen all the time. I don't think we should discount the possibility- it's the probability and literary similarities that have me skeptical.

    “. Indeed, Simmons came from a poor, small town West Virginia family (Jackie from small town Virginia), was always trying to impress her father, and was all of the things “Jackie” claims to be in the article- head of clubs, merit scholar, etc. ”

    Charlotte Simmons was from North Carolina. The University she went to was probably Duke. The poorer people of N.C. used to dig holes and actually lived in them, a kind of dugout. Later they graduated to a kind of house and ate off of a picnic table. Yet she won a scholarship.
    What I always wondered was, why didn’t Charlotte seek out some others who had her Christian background, and principles. All colleges have those kind of clubs and groups; some of them might have had some pretty awful people too, but her chances of finding friends was certainly better. Granted, under the pressures of the new environment, principles withered; but at least she would have been around people who not total aliens.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Charlotte Simmons was a great book. You do get the sense that the school she's supposedly going to is a Southern school - Duke or Vandy or UVA. Wolfe claimed it was an amalgam of several schools, only one of them, Duke, in the South. The frat is supposedly based on one at Penn that Wolfe visited.

    But it's best not judged on its realism. It was published in 2004, but much of it reads as if the internet didn't even exist.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  105. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Rolling Stone put out a follow up article on the UVA rape thing, publishing other UVA affiliated women’s stories about rape:

    “Rape at UVA: Readers Say Jackie Wasn’t Alone
    Rolling Stone’s investigation into sexual assault on the University of Virginia campus elicits intense personal stories”

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/rape-at-uva-readers-say-jackie-wasnt-alone-20141121

    Within hours of Rolling Stone publishing Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s harrowing report, “A Rape on Campus,” the article went viral and the outpouring of comments from women, both UVA students and alumni as well as others, who shared their own stories of campus sexual assault was stunning. Below is a selection of those comments that further illuminate the chilling frequency with which sexual assault on campus occurs.

    Sadly
    I was also raped at UVA in a frat house in 2013. I reported it through the Sexual Misconduct Board at the University and had it tried in 2014. My evidence included texts calling for help, police testimony consistent with mine, and numerous witnesses. But the University still found him innocent. I found Nicole Eramo very unfeeling as well — sociopathic, almost. She later told me she didn’t believe the studies that showed rapists, in particular, were repeat offenders of this heinous crime. It was a very negative experience to go through — to be raped and then told that your offender was innocent. I even left clothing as I ran out of the frat house that the University gathered as evidence and it was never returned to me. Not that the clothing was important. It wasn’t. The police discouraged me from pursuing it criminally, saying that I didn’t have enough evidence to win. They also told me that I should be cautious about pursuing this formally, since court proceedings and news articles related to my case could spread publicly on the Internet. For privacy reasons (I didn’t want future employers to Google me and see that I brought forward rape charges), I decided to pursue justice through the University. But the outcome of this process was painful and disappointing. I will never stop wondering why UVA so often expels students for academic lying, cheating, and stealing but has never once expelled a student for rap.

    Another UVA Female and Ally – UVA female student
    As a fourth year female at UVA, this article made me cry. Statistically speaking, you have almost definitely encountered a rapist on school grounds. The problem is that most of the students here too oblivious to know that they are rapists. Two days a week, I enjoy the experience of sitting in a small class with a person who raped one of my closest friends. Had I been unaware of the incident, I would not know he was a rapist: Rapists blend in. He was not punished, despite a trial replete with corroborating evidence on the victim’s part. Second-hand, I have heard of many – countless even – incidents of sexual violence in my four years here. And I can tell you that this article captures our school’s problem accurately. I love the University of Virginia, but what I don’t love are people ignoring the problem – and it is indeed a problem.

    Hibiscus Old ‘Hoo
    I went to UVA in the Eighties and this was spot-on then. It all echoes my own personal experience. There was a culture of sexual assault, along with a disdain for those who attempt to report it, and it apparently continues to this day. I am grateful that this is finally being brought into the light

    Mad UVA Mom
    I went to UVA in the early Eighties and I can tell you that although the administration has changed and Charlottesville has grown in the last 30 years, the culture sounds exactly the same as it always has – right down to the same fraternities with the same reputation. Even then we had a fraternity we called “the coke-bottle rapists” and knew to stay away from that house. That was 1980. Maybe these are the sons of those guys?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Note that these comments were all anonymous - even the ones where people claim it happened to 'someone they knew.' None of them could be bothered to print their real name?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  106. @Whiskey
    I have a lot of doubts, not the least of which is the nature of Frat guys and women. Believe it or not, even in College there is a shortage of hot women. There is always going to be a guy who has it bad for any reasonably attractive woman, and a frat victimizing a woman like in the story is going to generate that guy into a lifetime enemy; that's just the way White guys are in particular. Often probably a fellow frat member. There is nothing, nothing White guys embrace more than chivalrous White knight defender of helpless women. Its innate, hard wired, doubtless genetic.

    And what is the point of BEING in a Frat in the first place? A. Women. B. Women. C. Women. D. Women. E. Social Connections. F. Women. A frat is for guys with something going for them, to come together and get the best women at the most exclusive parties. A dorm blowout with drunken foolery? With just anyone getting in? Nope a frat party is like an exclusive VIP section at a club with a celebrity. You get upscale drinks, not cheap keggers, its not crowded with half the university, the music is better, and the women are better and invited. After all, the women are the potential girlfriends of the frat brothers. That's why they are there. Its why the Frat mostly exists.

    The University is an ugly place for unconnected men and women. Frats and Sororities exist as a social intermediation institution, a place to connect each other and exist in a smaller subsection of a big University.

    Yes, broken glass would cause a lot of bleeding, comment, and wouldn't be conducive to sex. Dark enough to "mask" the identities but the putative victim can still identify them all. Rape as initiation going on for years, without some guy getting mad that his intended girl is the victim? Smells to high heaven, when we KNOW how rape occurs on and around campuses.

    Its: A. Violent Stranger Rape like the dead coed allegedly raped and murdered by the Black ex-con out on other rape/assault charges; B. socially powerful men like Bill Cosby or BBC Presenter Jimmy Saville or Roman Polanski quashing rape charges through influence pulling, power of fame, and influence of powerful friends.; C. Muslim gangs running rampant and protected by PC officials courting their votes and hating their White lower / working class victims. Those are the three kinds of real rape we've seen. Jerry Sandusky falls into Category B, obviously.

    My guess, a case of regret-rape, where said victim had sex with ONE guy, and concocted the rape story to get back at the one guy. That's consistent with other known cases of rape fraud (which carries no real penalty for the accuser) and fits in with feminist theory that any sex a woman regrets even years later is rape. More evidence of the HATE HATE HATE for beta males that women exhibit. Some White feminist was raped (rape-rape according to Whoopi Goldberg) in Haiti, and blamed ... White guys. Likely the guy the woman had sex with was all Beta male, clinging, supplicating, complimenting, and thus utterly repulsive. Hence the ridiculous story to garner sympathy. Munchausen Syndrome is a real problem among women today.

    If the story were true, many other women victims would have come forward. There'd be lawsuits aplenty. Men plea bargaining. This stinks to high heaven.

    I agree. Just finished reading her story. No way did this happen.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  107. […] are useful comments over at Steve Sailer’s post about this. One points to a Reddit thread wherein a commenter points out that the fraternity in question […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  108. @Anonymous
    Rolling Stone put out a follow up article on the UVA rape thing, publishing other UVA affiliated women's stories about rape:

    "Rape at UVA: Readers Say Jackie Wasn't Alone
    Rolling Stone's investigation into sexual assault on the University of Virginia campus elicits intense personal stories"

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/rape-at-uva-readers-say-jackie-wasnt-alone-20141121


    Within hours of Rolling Stone publishing Sabrina Rubin Erdely's harrowing report, "A Rape on Campus," the article went viral and the outpouring of comments from women, both UVA students and alumni as well as others, who shared their own stories of campus sexual assault was stunning. Below is a selection of those comments that further illuminate the chilling frequency with which sexual assault on campus occurs.

    Sadly
    I was also raped at UVA in a frat house in 2013. I reported it through the Sexual Misconduct Board at the University and had it tried in 2014. My evidence included texts calling for help, police testimony consistent with mine, and numerous witnesses. But the University still found him innocent. I found Nicole Eramo very unfeeling as well — sociopathic, almost. She later told me she didn't believe the studies that showed rapists, in particular, were repeat offenders of this heinous crime. It was a very negative experience to go through — to be raped and then told that your offender was innocent. I even left clothing as I ran out of the frat house that the University gathered as evidence and it was never returned to me. Not that the clothing was important. It wasn't. The police discouraged me from pursuing it criminally, saying that I didn't have enough evidence to win. They also told me that I should be cautious about pursuing this formally, since court proceedings and news articles related to my case could spread publicly on the Internet. For privacy reasons (I didn't want future employers to Google me and see that I brought forward rape charges), I decided to pursue justice through the University. But the outcome of this process was painful and disappointing. I will never stop wondering why UVA so often expels students for academic lying, cheating, and stealing but has never once expelled a student for rap.

    ...

    Another UVA Female and Ally - UVA female student
    As a fourth year female at UVA, this article made me cry. Statistically speaking, you have almost definitely encountered a rapist on school grounds. The problem is that most of the students here too oblivious to know that they are rapists. Two days a week, I enjoy the experience of sitting in a small class with a person who raped one of my closest friends. Had I been unaware of the incident, I would not know he was a rapist: Rapists blend in. He was not punished, despite a trial replete with corroborating evidence on the victim's part. Second-hand, I have heard of many – countless even – incidents of sexual violence in my four years here. And I can tell you that this article captures our school's problem accurately. I love the University of Virginia, but what I don't love are people ignoring the problem – and it is indeed a problem.

    Hibiscus Old 'Hoo
    I went to UVA in the Eighties and this was spot-on then. It all echoes my own personal experience. There was a culture of sexual assault, along with a disdain for those who attempt to report it, and it apparently continues to this day. I am grateful that this is finally being brought into the light

    Mad UVA Mom
    I went to UVA in the early Eighties and I can tell you that although the administration has changed and Charlottesville has grown in the last 30 years, the culture sounds exactly the same as it always has – right down to the same fraternities with the same reputation. Even then we had a fraternity we called "the coke-bottle rapists" and knew to stay away from that house. That was 1980. Maybe these are the sons of those guys?
     

    Note that these comments were all anonymous – even the ones where people claim it happened to ‘someone they knew.’ None of them could be bothered to print their real name?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  109. @dcite
    ". Indeed, Simmons came from a poor, small town West Virginia family (Jackie from small town Virginia), was always trying to impress her father, and was all of the things “Jackie” claims to be in the article- head of clubs, merit scholar, etc. "

    Charlotte Simmons was from North Carolina. The University she went to was probably Duke. The poorer people of N.C. used to dig holes and actually lived in them, a kind of dugout. Later they graduated to a kind of house and ate off of a picnic table. Yet she won a scholarship.
    What I always wondered was, why didn't Charlotte seek out some others who had her Christian background, and principles. All colleges have those kind of clubs and groups; some of them might have had some pretty awful people too, but her chances of finding friends was certainly better. Granted, under the pressures of the new environment, principles withered; but at least she would have been around people who not total aliens.

    Charlotte Simmons was a great book. You do get the sense that the school she’s supposedly going to is a Southern school – Duke or Vandy or UVA. Wolfe claimed it was an amalgam of several schools, only one of them, Duke, in the South. The frat is supposedly based on one at Penn that Wolfe visited.

    But it’s best not judged on its realism. It was published in 2004, but much of it reads as if the internet didn’t even exist.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  110. @Wyrd
    "UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties."

    Teresa Sullivan, president of UVa, has accepted the story as gospel truth and she's using it to punish all fraternities on campus. She's a SJW through and through. There will be no critical examination of the facts, only further hysteria.

    Would she sing a different tune if Terry McAuliffe weren’t the governor? She’s already been fired once.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wyrd
    The timing of this article along with the federal government sending its ringwraiths to UVa over alleged rape culture makes me believe Sullivan is fully complicit here. She is a sociologist, after all, which is good evidence she lacks any decency.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  111. @Chris Mallory

    Do men share awesome stories about being mugged or is it only women who really adore being victims of violent crime?
     
    During my first semester at the University of Kentucky my 8 am class was across the hall from a "Womyn's Studies" class. Sitting out in the hall waiting for the classroom doors to be unlocked I would hear all of these "womyn" discussing their "rape fantasies",for lack of a better term. They just knew they were going to be victims of evil men. Atwood's "Handmaid's Tale" was particularly ripe fodder for these fantasies.

    Rod Dreher
     
    Dreher is a self hating white man who loves to champion those "oppressed" by evil white men. Back when the Duck Dynasty racist story was big news, Dreher just knew that the old man's memories were false because "civil rights" or something.


    Virginia has no statute of limitations for rape. So charges will be filed against this band of rapists, right? Right?

    If a woman can be too drunk to consent, can a man be too drunk to be held responsible for not getting consent? If two drunks have sex, are both of them guilty of rape?

    There are surely ambiguous cases where both participants were drunk and there’ s nothing remotely like rape involved. But there are also cases where a guy gets a girl drunk so he can have sex with her when she’s too drunk to say no effectively, and some guys make a habit of this. Those guys belong in prison. One reason why they usually don’t end up there is that the only witness with an incentive to report the crime was also too drunk to be a credible witness. Something similar happens with date rape; it’s a hard crime to prosecute because it typically comes down to one person’s word against another, with no physical evidence that is really decisive.

    I imagine this is behind the recent push to have campus authorities investigate sexual assault/rape allegations in a setting where they don’t need to prove things like they do for a criminal trial. This strikes me as a pretty bad idea for a variety of reasons, but it’s not crazy to want to solve the problem. Similarly, it’s appealing to imagine that you could somehow impose some kind of change in sexual behavior that would eliminate these ambiguities, even though I’m very skeptical that such attempts (like the UC system is apparently trying) will work very well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The most deplorable one

    This strikes me as a pretty bad idea for a variety of reasons, but it’s not crazy to want to solve the problem.
     
    However, surely, the women can solve these problems themselves:

    1. Don't get drunk in the presence of men they do not trust,

    2. Don't go out with men they do trust,

    3. Don't trust men until they have demonstrated they are trust worthy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  112. @Wyrd
    "UVA needs to demand validation of this story from Rolling Stone, Rubin Erdely, and all involved parties."

    Teresa Sullivan, president of UVa, has accepted the story as gospel truth and she's using it to punish all fraternities on campus. She's a SJW through and through. There will be no critical examination of the facts, only further hysteria.

    Right, but is the reason she’s going along with it because she wants it as a tool to hammer the fraternities? Or because she knows the school has been hushing up rapes on campus for years now, and she’s familiar with similar stories? (In general, I’d expect universities with serious athletic programs to be complicit in hushing up rape cases involving athletes, but that may just be my biases creeping in.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wyrd
    I frankly don't care for your or Sullivan's justification of a witch hunt.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  113. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @NOTA
    There are surely ambiguous cases where both participants were drunk and there' s nothing remotely like rape involved. But there are also cases where a guy gets a girl drunk so he can have sex with her when she's too drunk to say no effectively, and some guys make a habit of this. Those guys belong in prison. One reason why they usually don't end up there is that the only witness with an incentive to report the crime was also too drunk to be a credible witness. Something similar happens with date rape; it's a hard crime to prosecute because it typically comes down to one person's word against another, with no physical evidence that is really decisive.

    I imagine this is behind the recent push to have campus authorities investigate sexual assault/rape allegations in a setting where they don't need to prove things like they do for a criminal trial. This strikes me as a pretty bad idea for a variety of reasons, but it's not crazy to want to solve the problem. Similarly, it's appealing to imagine that you could somehow impose some kind of change in sexual behavior that would eliminate these ambiguities, even though I'm very skeptical that such attempts (like the UC system is apparently trying) will work very well.

    This strikes me as a pretty bad idea for a variety of reasons, but it’s not crazy to want to solve the problem.

    However, surely, the women can solve these problems themselves:

    1. Don’t get drunk in the presence of men they do not trust,

    2. Don’t go out with men they do trust,

    3. Don’t trust men until they have demonstrated they are trust worthy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  114. @NOTA
    Right, but is the reason she's going along with it because she wants it as a tool to hammer the fraternities? Or because she knows the school has been hushing up rapes on campus for years now, and she's familiar with similar stories? (In general, I'd expect universities with serious athletic programs to be complicit in hushing up rape cases involving athletes, but that may just be my biases creeping in.)

    I frankly don’t care for your or Sullivan’s justification of a witch hunt.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  115. @Wilkey
    Would she sing a different tune if Terry McAuliffe weren't the governor? She's already been fired once.

    The timing of this article along with the federal government sending its ringwraiths to UVa over alleged rape culture makes me believe Sullivan is fully complicit here. She is a sociologist, after all, which is good evidence she lacks any decency.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  116. The biggest reason to doubt the story:

    What assurance did these intelligent and talented young men have that their victim would not go to the police?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  117. My guess is that “Jackie” can be found hanging out with Sidd Finch. Either the Rolling Stone writer got trolled or Rolling Stone is trolling.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  118. One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face

    On a public street, in front of a bar, yet nobody calls a cop (and no campus or real police are in the area) and brave Jackie presses on to….send an email about it.

    Totally believable!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dahlia
    And after calling her a Feminazi b**** no less! I thought only middle-aged Rush Limbaugh listeners said that...

    This tale is worse than the rape. One could still assume good faith about the storyteller by assuming she left out details to explain pesky facts, but there is no wiggle room here. Her face is hit by a glass bottle with such force it smashes. Outdoors in public with witnesses.

    These details are all so outlandish that it makes me believe "Jackie" doesn't exist. Stephen Glass did the same thing. When people lie about themselves or someone they know, the lies are usually more tempered.
    I'm guessing she wasn't made up out of whole cloth, however. Perhaps an amalgamation of one of the pushers of this and a fantasy?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  119. The blog post is excellent, primarily for who the author is. Scroll down to the other posts, and you’ll see posts critical of republican political ads. This editor at least LEANS left.

    If people who lean left are beginning to smell smoke, there may very well be some fire…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  120. Dahlia says:
    @Ace

    One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face
     
    On a public street, in front of a bar, yet nobody calls a cop (and no campus or real police are in the area) and brave Jackie presses on to....send an email about it.

    Totally believable!

    And after calling her a Feminazi b**** no less! I thought only middle-aged Rush Limbaugh listeners said that…

    This tale is worse than the rape. One could still assume good faith about the storyteller by assuming she left out details to explain pesky facts, but there is no wiggle room here. Her face is hit by a glass bottle with such force it smashes. Outdoors in public with witnesses.

    These details are all so outlandish that it makes me believe “Jackie” doesn’t exist. Stephen Glass did the same thing. When people lie about themselves or someone they know, the lies are usually more tempered.
    I’m guessing she wasn’t made up out of whole cloth, however. Perhaps an amalgamation of one of the pushers of this and a fantasy?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  121. The element about the victim’s acquaintance from the anthropology discussion group reminds me of a trope that comes up in the “rape-revenge” sub-genre of slasher films, such as “Last House on the Left” and “I Spit on Your Grave.” The idea is that even the low-ranking “good guy” of the group (who might be dull-witted or simply softhearted) will give in to the evil momentum in response to male peer pressure. It’s sort of an “et tu” moment that suggests, along with the practical implausibilities in how the story is blocked, that a narrative is being concocted.

    It’s important that this one be debunked roundly and loudly. It’s not a matter of muddled exaggeration, but of falsehood parading as journalism — with real consequences.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  122. @Chris Mallory

    Do men share awesome stories about being mugged or is it only women who really adore being victims of violent crime?
     
    During my first semester at the University of Kentucky my 8 am class was across the hall from a "Womyn's Studies" class. Sitting out in the hall waiting for the classroom doors to be unlocked I would hear all of these "womyn" discussing their "rape fantasies",for lack of a better term. They just knew they were going to be victims of evil men. Atwood's "Handmaid's Tale" was particularly ripe fodder for these fantasies.

    Rod Dreher
     
    Dreher is a self hating white man who loves to champion those "oppressed" by evil white men. Back when the Duck Dynasty racist story was big news, Dreher just knew that the old man's memories were false because "civil rights" or something.


    Virginia has no statute of limitations for rape. So charges will be filed against this band of rapists, right? Right?

    If a woman can be too drunk to consent, can a man be too drunk to be held responsible for not getting consent? If two drunks have sex, are both of them guilty of rape?

    “Rape fantasies” differ from most of the actual crimes in two ways (one pointed out by a man): a woman fantasizing, chooses her “rapist.” More or less. It’s not the total annihilation and likely threat of death that real rape is. I have not been raped, but I was attacked and almost was. Annihilation is the only word, and no one willingly fantasizes that.

    The second way it differs from female fantasies (the real thing) is that is enacted by men. And women do not really understand male psychology of this nature, any more than men understand womens’. So yeah, there are “rape fantasies” but the kind of classes you’re remembering encouraged that kind of person to attend and spew forth. For most, it goes as far as Rhett Butler and Scarlet O’Hara. That’s the “fantasy.”

    And btw, if females have these fantasies, you can be damn sure men have theirs. Porn is full of them. But the males are constrained by the law from such expressions. Sometimes I wish women were too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I'm male and I cannot understand male rape fantasies. I personally hardly doubt they even exist at all. What would be the point? As you pointed out, in a fantasy, you choose the counterpart, his/her behavior etc. Rape starts out when a woman rejects a guy. Because if the woman would say yes to the guy, it would be no rape, right? Now why would a guy fantasize about being rejected? It's not as if you couldn't choose the woman of your dreams to say yes to you in your fantasy, she could even enjoy it there and be willing. That's why it's your fantasy.

    So, I guess both sexes fantasize about being overly attractive to an overly attractive representative of the other sex, which in the woman's case means being raped by the guy of her dreams (i.e. he is so overpowered by her attractiveness - but she wouldn't really resist, of course, just would feel too weak to resist), and in the guy's case having sex with a highly attractive and also more than eager woman. This doesn't mean that guys never dream of rough sex, but I just cannot imagine why anybody would fantasize about being rejected, except for cuckold fetishists, who I guess wouldn't exactly fantasize about raping a woman.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  123. @Portlander
    I'd never actually read the Rolling Stone story figuring it was a disturbing story of alcohol and next-morning regret.

    Now that I realize the story is supposed to be a brutal, pre-meditated rape as a form of fraternity initiation, I can confidently say: No. Effing. Way. This story absolutely does not pass the smell test. The broken glass is enough to know it's BS. But 9 college men conspiring in a pre-meditated gang rape? Nope, no way.

    If nothing else, there would be a history. Fraternity initiations gone bad inevitably started, if not innocently, at least not as gratuitous felonies. Then, as each year tries to out-do the previous year events escalate into being out-of-hand. So, where's the other women coming forward with their stories of scary rapes, or near rapes? Contrast with the recent Bill Cosby pile-on, once the first story broke.

    People, you should read the story, however foolish parts of it sound, in order not to be guilty of folly similar to that of its writer. In fact, there *is* a history, of a sort, of such rapes at the UVa campus and at the particular fraternity house involved. The former are not substantiated, any more than the one experienced by Jackie, the main victim in the RS story, but the frat house rape has in fact been substantiated. The victim reported it to University authorities right after it happened in 1984, but was discouraged from going to the police about it. 25 years later, she received a note from one of her rapists confessing and apologizing for his actions, as part of his 12-step program. He was charged by the police and, during the investigation, they discovered that the woman had in fact been gang-raped. The incident and its aftermath are provided in the RS article along with the Jackie story.

    That other incident at “Phi Psi” happened in 1984, although it wasn’t prosecuted until 2006, so it would be a bit much to say that there is an ongoing history of such behaviour at that particular fraternity. Except for the disquieting fact, also mentioned in the RS article, that Brown University’s chapter of the same fraternity was temporarily suspended after allegations that female partygoers had had their drinks spiked and were then sexually assaulted. Don’t know how it all ended wrt the sexual assault allegations, but at least one of the women tested positive for GHB. (See http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20141108-brown-university-student-tested-positive-for-date-rape-drug.ece )

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  124. @Luke Lea
    I just Googled "Sabrina Rubin Erdely hoax" and the first thing that came up was: "The Girl Who Conned the Ivy League - Sabrina Rubin Erdely"

    http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/docs/IvyLeague.pdf&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=hnl6VOuiC4G_ggSZzIDABg&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1w_9f1gmPls76fx0hC_ugw&usg=AFQjCNEKZxJ6jcGWWEG4dpWxxKgFLlqzdg

    Another: "The Fabulous Fraudulent Life of Jocelyn & Ed"

    http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/docs/TheFabulousFraudulentLife.pdf&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=hnl6VOuiC4G_ggSZzIDABg&ved=0CCAQFjAC&sig2=A_exUY103poOGbzFXek_uw&usg=AFQjCNFBRHUGCw3bU3qX3UgwrwfRSLq_GQ

    A third: "The Creep with the Golden Tongue"

    http://www.google.com/url?url=http://sabrinaerdely.com/docs/TheCreepWithTheGoldenTongue.pdf&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=hnl6VOuiC4G_ggSZzIDABg&ved=0CCYQFjAD&sig2=pGX3JzkGxV-yPW8efH7o2g&usg=AFQjCNEKz-oKSOK24v17MgcoLhR4HFKilA

    Granted, I haven't taken the trouble to read these three tales, but I'd love to here from anyone who does.

    I looked. S. Rubin Erdely apparently *writes about* con arttists and cons; she has not been found guilty of perpetrating them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  125. @dcite
    "Rape fantasies" differ from most of the actual crimes in two ways (one pointed out by a man): a woman fantasizing, chooses her "rapist." More or less. It's not the total annihilation and likely threat of death that real rape is. I have not been raped, but I was attacked and almost was. Annihilation is the only word, and no one willingly fantasizes that.

    The second way it differs from female fantasies (the real thing) is that is enacted by men. And women do not really understand male psychology of this nature, any more than men understand womens'. So yeah, there are "rape fantasies" but the kind of classes you're remembering encouraged that kind of person to attend and spew forth. For most, it goes as far as Rhett Butler and Scarlet O'Hara. That's the "fantasy."

    And btw, if females have these fantasies, you can be damn sure men have theirs. Porn is full of them. But the males are constrained by the law from such expressions. Sometimes I wish women were too.

    I’m male and I cannot understand male rape fantasies. I personally hardly doubt they even exist at all. What would be the point? As you pointed out, in a fantasy, you choose the counterpart, his/her behavior etc. Rape starts out when a woman rejects a guy. Because if the woman would say yes to the guy, it would be no rape, right? Now why would a guy fantasize about being rejected? It’s not as if you couldn’t choose the woman of your dreams to say yes to you in your fantasy, she could even enjoy it there and be willing. That’s why it’s your fantasy.

    So, I guess both sexes fantasize about being overly attractive to an overly attractive representative of the other sex, which in the woman’s case means being raped by the guy of her dreams (i.e. he is so overpowered by her attractiveness – but she wouldn’t really resist, of course, just would feel too weak to resist), and in the guy’s case having sex with a highly attractive and also more than eager woman. This doesn’t mean that guys never dream of rough sex, but I just cannot imagine why anybody would fantasize about being rejected, except for cuckold fetishists, who I guess wouldn’t exactly fantasize about raping a woman.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  126. @Anonymous

    I think at some point “Jackie” was at a frat party, had too much to drink and got involved in some kind of…. train situation, that is semi-consentual sex with more than one guy.

    At some point thereafter she had a shame/remorse based nightmare or two about it and can truthfully no longer disentangle what really happened from her nightmare(s).
     
    Right, but more likely than a "nightmare", it was probably stories about her going around campus that she eventually heard about. She was horrified and embarrassed, and subsequently rationalized and convinced herself that she wasn't the loose girl of the story, but a victimized person.

    I find it easier to believe that she made the whole story up than that she consented to some kind of group situation and then lied about it. If she turned out to be the kind of fabulist who comes up with wild stories to get attention, then she might well be indifferent to or unaware of the threat that circulating such a story might pose to her future. If she were, on the other hand, a silly young woman who had a rough sexual encounter with a group of boys and regretted it afterwards, she would surely be aware that she was putting her future at risk.

    Remember that unlike Tawana Brawley and some other women who have become notorious for lying about being raped, she didn’t tell her story in the heat of an awkward moment to appease an angry father or boyfriend. No one was hovering around asking her why she had come home so late, or just how she’d gotten pregnant, or anything like that.

    The fact that she told her wild story directly to a reporter suggests either (a) that she IS a fabulist, and made it all up to satisfy some neurosis (and that’s why it was so hard to get names out of her), or (b) that the story, despite its strange anomalies which may indicate a faulty memory, is largely true.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  127. @Portlander
    I'd never actually read the Rolling Stone story figuring it was a disturbing story of alcohol and next-morning regret.

    Now that I realize the story is supposed to be a brutal, pre-meditated rape as a form of fraternity initiation, I can confidently say: No. Effing. Way. This story absolutely does not pass the smell test. The broken glass is enough to know it's BS. But 9 college men conspiring in a pre-meditated gang rape? Nope, no way.

    If nothing else, there would be a history. Fraternity initiations gone bad inevitably started, if not innocently, at least not as gratuitous felonies. Then, as each year tries to out-do the previous year events escalate into being out-of-hand. So, where's the other women coming forward with their stories of scary rapes, or near rapes? Contrast with the recent Bill Cosby pile-on, once the first story broke.

    People, you should read the story, however foolish parts of it sound, in order not to be guilty of folly similar to that of its writer. In fact, there *is* a history, of a sort, of such rapes at the UVa campus and at the particular fraternity house involved. The former are not substantiated, any more than the one experienced by Jackie, the main victim in the RS story, but the frat house rape *is* substantiated: the victim reported it to University authorities and was discouraged from going to the police about it, but 25 years later received a note from one of her rapists confessing and apologizing for his actions, as part of his 12-step program. He was charged by the police and, during the investigation, they discovered that the woman had in fact been gang-raped. The incident and its aftermath are provided in the RS article along with the Jackie story.

    That other incident at “Phi Psi” happened in 1984, although it wasn’t prosecuted until 2006, so it would be a bit much to say that there is an ongoing history of such behaviour at that particular fraternity. Except for the disquieting fact, also mentioned in the RS article, that Brown University’s chapter of the same fraternity was temporarily suspended after allegations that female partygoers had had their drinks spiked and were then sexually assaulted. Don’t know how it all ended wrt the sexual assault allegations, but at least one of the women tested positive for GHB. (See http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20141108-brown-university-student-tested-positive-for-date-rape-drug.ece )

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hard Line Realist
    KC Johnson weighs in:

    http://www.mindingthecampus.com/2014/11/how-should-we-respond-to-the-uva-case/
    , @Hard Line Realist
    One way for women to prevent these sorts of things is to not go to college, or alternatively, ban all males from colleges women want to go to.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  128. @PatrickH
    People, you should read the story, however foolish parts of it sound, in order not to be guilty of folly similar to that of its writer. In fact, there *is* a history, of a sort, of such rapes at the UVa campus and at the particular fraternity house involved. The former are not substantiated, any more than the one experienced by Jackie, the main victim in the RS story, but the frat house rape *is* substantiated: the victim reported it to University authorities and was discouraged from going to the police about it, but 25 years later received a note from one of her rapists confessing and apologizing for his actions, as part of his 12-step program. He was charged by the police and, during the investigation, they discovered that the woman had in fact been gang-raped. The incident and its aftermath are provided in the RS article along with the Jackie story.

    That other incident at “Phi Psi” happened in 1984, although it wasn’t prosecuted until 2006, so it would be a bit much to say that there is an ongoing history of such behaviour at that particular fraternity. Except for the disquieting fact, also mentioned in the RS article, that Brown University’s chapter of the same fraternity was temporarily suspended after allegations that female partygoers had had their drinks spiked and were then sexually assaulted. Don’t know how it all ended wrt the sexual assault allegations, but at least one of the women tested positive for GHB. (See www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20141108-brown-university-student-tested-positive-for-date-rape-drug.ece )
    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  129. @PatrickH
    People, you should read the story, however foolish parts of it sound, in order not to be guilty of folly similar to that of its writer. In fact, there *is* a history, of a sort, of such rapes at the UVa campus and at the particular fraternity house involved. The former are not substantiated, any more than the one experienced by Jackie, the main victim in the RS story, but the frat house rape *is* substantiated: the victim reported it to University authorities and was discouraged from going to the police about it, but 25 years later received a note from one of her rapists confessing and apologizing for his actions, as part of his 12-step program. He was charged by the police and, during the investigation, they discovered that the woman had in fact been gang-raped. The incident and its aftermath are provided in the RS article along with the Jackie story.

    That other incident at “Phi Psi” happened in 1984, although it wasn’t prosecuted until 2006, so it would be a bit much to say that there is an ongoing history of such behaviour at that particular fraternity. Except for the disquieting fact, also mentioned in the RS article, that Brown University’s chapter of the same fraternity was temporarily suspended after allegations that female partygoers had had their drinks spiked and were then sexually assaulted. Don’t know how it all ended wrt the sexual assault allegations, but at least one of the women tested positive for GHB. (See www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20141108-brown-university-student-tested-positive-for-date-rape-drug.ece )

    One way for women to prevent these sorts of things is to not go to college, or alternatively, ban all males from colleges women want to go to.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The major media overlooked Communist spies and Madoff’s fraud. What are they missing today?
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
What Was John McCain's True Wartime Record in Vietnam?
The evidence is clear — but often ignored