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A New York Times Editorial retconning America’s past that reads like an iSteve parody of a New York Times editorial retconning America’s past:

What America Celebrates on Thanksgiving
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD NOV. 22, 2017

In these days of anxiety and alienation, Thanksgiving offers the warm embrace of inclusiveness. Particularly for many people with families and faiths rooted in other lands, no other holiday, not even the Fourth of July, has so great a capacity to make them feel American.

A child of Orthodox Jewish immigrants could feel his apartness on other festivals celebrated by the larger society. Christmas, Easter, Halloween — all are distinctly Christian observances, no matter how temporal and commercialized they have become. They are inevitable reminders for some Americans that they are different.

Thanksgiving’s origins are also Christian. But it has evolved into something both secular and spiritual, a day devoted to family and amity. … Thanksgiving is at heart more than parades, or football or even country; there’s no flag-waving or chest-thumping. It is about shared bounty and shared humanity.

That’s why the writer Saadia Faruqi, a Pakistan-born Muslim, welcomes the day. “For a Pakistani-American, Thanksgiving is as wholesome and normal a holiday as one can get,” she said in a 2015 essay….

No turkey, either, for Saumya Arya Haas, a writer who is Hindu. …

Writing last month on the website of the International Buddhist Society, David Westdorp said he had adopted Buddhist ways of living in recent years. …

Lincoln may well have anticipated all those convictions — Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish and Christian — when in 1863 he proclaimed the last Thursday in November to be “a day of Thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.” …

Lincoln knew his Bible, and was surely familiar with a passage from Exodus all too often ignored in our present era of hard feelings: “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.” …

This kind of retconning of America’s past to make it non-triggering to the touchy new elites of the Current Year is so pervasive that it’s almost unnoticed.

I don’t see the word “Pilgrim” mentioned in this editorial about a national holiday commemorating the English settlement of the American wilderness. Instead, Thanksgiving is now all about immigrants, not settlers, as being the most important peoples in American history (with one particular Ellis Island immigrant group’s sensitivities and resentments of course being given pride of place), even if, technically, they got here a long time later.

The funny thing is how petty this is. It’s actually quite amusing that our national mythology has been hijacked in order to rectify the resentments people feel toward those who got to belong to Los Angeles Country Club back when great-grandpa was stuck belonging to Hillcrest Country Club, but if you aren’t Larry David this is no laughing matter, if you know what’s good for you.

 
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  1. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Tell that to the Indians.

    No wonder they don’t talk about Indians anymore.

    Emma Lazarus wanted them turned to wretched huddled masses in reservations.

    And what did forced inclusion do to Palestinians?

    They are huddled and wretched in Gaza and West Bank.

    Jews think they own America. And they want to force INCLUSION on whites so that whites will be a colonized people just like Palestinians.

    And what’s this amnesty crap? Why dont these people wanna go back to their own nations and people? Do they hate their own kind? Can’t they stand their own kind? If they can’t stand their own kind, why should others stand them?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Moses

    And what’s this amnesty crap? Why dont these people wanna go back to their own nations and people? Do they hate their own kind? Can’t they stand their own kind?
     
    The only thing worse for a 3rd worlder than living in a country built by racist Whites is not being allowed to immigrate to a country built by racist Whites.
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  2. anon says: • Disclaimer

    I looked it up, and actually, the whole reason the Pilgrims came here was in order to give Somali Muslims a place to go when they screwed up their own country.

    Lincoln may well have anticipated all those convictions — Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish and Christian — when in 1863 he proclaimed the last Thursday in November to be “a day of Thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.

    I suppose he may have, but he didn’t, and the person who wrote this knows it as well as I do.

    It really gets on my nerves when NYT people pretend not to understand why everyone hates them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    The WSJ is arguably centrist, which gets called "far-right" by the standards of far-left NYC.

    The Unification Church's Washington Times is understood as a nakedly partisan rightist outlet, but somehow WaPo and the NYT aren't seen the same way...
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  3. The first border jumpers :

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  4. syonredux says:

    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant:

    Being thus arrived in a good harbor and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees & blessed the God of heaven, who had brought them over the vast & furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils & miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element. Being thus past the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before in their preparation (as may be remembered by that which went before), they had now no friends to welcome them, nor inns to entertain or refresh their weather-beaten bodies, no houses or much less towns to repair to, to seek for succor. It is recorded in scripture as a mercy to the apostle & his shipwrecked company, that the barbarians showed them no small kindness in refreshing them, but these savage barbarians, when they met with them were readier to fill their sides full of arrows then otherwise. And for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of that country know them to be sharp & violent & subject to cruel & fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search an unknown coast. Besides, what could they see but a hideous & desolate wilderness, full of wild beasts & wild men? And what multitudes there might be of them they knew not. Neither could they, as it were, go up to the top of Pisgah, to view from this wilderness a more goodly country to feed their hopes; for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to the heavens) they could have little solace or content in respect of any outward objects. For summer being done, all things stand upon them with a weather-beaten face; and the whole country, full of woods & thickets, represented a wild & savage hue. If they looked behind them, there was the mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar & gulf to separate them from all the civil parts of the world. What could now sustain them but the spirit of God & His grace? May not & ought not the children of these fathers, rightly say: Our fathers were Englishmen which came over this great ocean, and were ready to perish in this wilderness.

    William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(Plymouth_Colony_governor)

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    • Agree: Luke Lea
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant.
     
    Makers, takers?
    , @Barnard
    I read that passage from Bradford this morning. It is worth noting that a big part of the reason the Pilgrims came to North America was that they did not want their children to assimilate into Dutch culture. They were also concerned the Spanish could retake the Netherlands after their treaty ended and they could be forced into Catholicism.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II
    Agree.
    , @dearieme
    The difference between a settler and an immigrant is that the settlers certainly took possession of the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing, whereas some immigrants may not have that ambition.
    , @Sarah Toga
    Use of an original source - thank you for doing the real work of honesty history!
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  5. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    This of course is the NYT just taking the middle path after its left flank has shifted the Overton Window, e.g. The Pilgrims were genocidal religious fanatics but The pilgrims were refugees too, like just like Syrians.

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  6. anon says: • Disclaimer

    A child of Orthodox Jewish immigrants could feel his apartness on other festivals celebrated by the larger society.

    I guess I’d feel a bit sorrier for them if Orthodox Jews didn’t go out of their way to separate themselves from normal society.

    If an Amish person started complaining to you that he never gets references people make to Stranger Things, would your first impulse be to feel sorry for him, or would you just point out that YOU weren’t the one telling him not to get electricity, and that if he wanted to, he could?

    But then, I don’t imagine the Amish would act that way.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    A child of Orthodox Jewish immigrants could feel his apartness on other festivals celebrated by the larger society.

    I guess I’d feel a bit sorrier for them if Orthodox Jews didn’t go out of their way to separate themselves from normal society.
     
    Yeah, isn't keeping apart from the unclean goyim the whole point of observing every jot and tittle of Jewish ritual law.....
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  7. syonredux says:

    William Bradford on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health and strength and had all things in good plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad, others were exercised in fishing, about cod and bass and other fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had their portion. All the summer there was no want; and now began to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they can be used (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc. Besides, they had about a peck a meal a week to a person, or now since harvest, Indian corn to the proportion. Which made many afterwards write so largely of their plenty here to their friends in England, which were not feigned but true reports

    Edward Winslow on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruits of our labor. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.

    Bradford on the Thanksgiving of 1623:

    And afterwards the Lord sent them such seasonable showers, with interchange of fair warm weather as, through His blessing, caused a fruitful and liberal harvest, to their no small comfort and rejoicing. For which mercy, in time convenient, they also set apart a day of thanksgiving… By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine now God gave them plenty … for which they blessed God. And the effect of their particular planting was well seen, for all had … pretty well … so as any general want or famine had not been amongst them since to this day

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dr. X

    ...They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God...
     
    ...So, in other words, Thanksgiving is about God-fearing, gun-owning, meat-eating hunters who also enjoy a bit of recreational target shooting.

    Sweet.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, thank you for the information. And in a land so bountiful the Indians still would not share with other tribes and killed, kidnapped, raped and tortured long before the Pilgrims arrived.
    , @Sarah Toga
    Syon, thank you for continuing the lesson.
    In my own readings of Bradford's history Of Plymouth Plantation, it seemed Bradford's words about Massasoit and the Wampanoag Tribe reveal Bradford had a great fondness for the Sachem and his people. Which one would expect of a professing Christian like Bradford.
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  8. Forbes says:

    More of NYT op-ed columnist Brett Stephens’ sludge, “I have always thought of the United States as a country that belongs first to its newcomers …” where foreigners are more American than Americans.

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  9. The Bradford accounts, Washington’s 1789 Proclamation, and Lincoln’s 1863 order are all exclusively Christian and very pro-Republic (the last 2 explicitly)

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  10. ChrisZ says:

    I suppose one should be grateful that the Times still acknowledges that there might be some unifying, characteristically American institutions out there that deserve something other than scorn.

    But I’m surprised that in their post-modern foodie mania the editors missed the significance of the meals they chose to describe.

    It’s not uncommon for the decendants of immigrants from earlier times to embellish the traditional Thanksgiving feast with items from their native cuisines. That’s indicative of the older style of assimilation: embrace the larger customs of America (the turkey, cranberry sauce, etc.) and let your Old World traditions play a subordinate role (as appetizers or side dishes).

    What about the “new-style” immigrants described in the Times editorial? They reject the Thanksgiving feast wholesale in favor of their own everyday cuisine (tandoori chicken and naan), and even express a disdainful moral superiority to the American tradition (agitating for a meatless feast).

    In other words, as with so many other areas of life, the new immigrants (and the Times) accept American institutions in name only, but feel free to empty out the content of longstanding practice, and replace it with anything else of their choosing.

    On a happier note, I want to wish our hosts and my fellow commenters a very pleasant Thanksgiving.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PhDPepper
    "On a happier note, I want to wish our hosts and my fellow commenters a very pleasant Thanksgiving."

    To you as well, God Bless.
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  11. CCZ says:

    Meanwhile, far too many of the white liberal descendants, successors, and beneficiaries of those English settlers denounce the celebration of Thanksgiving as the celebration of “colonization” and “genocide.” Show us your guilt!!

    I saw this in a local Unitarian-Universalist Church announcement:

    “For those who hold Thanksgiving as a day of sadness, who mourn for the hurt and loss of native peoples…we hold your heartache and sorrow so you do not have to carry the burden alone.”

    Yes, we must always remember the sacred truth that native peoples did not themselves come from somewhere else and that they never waged war against each other or ruthlessly killed each other and only Europeans colonized. Genghis Khan conquered no one outside of little old Mongolia.

    Self-loathing, virtue signaling, victim-hood as the only source of virtue, and Western Civilization hating, the liberal way to “celebrate” [Un]Happy Thanksgiving.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Hey CCZ, do you have some relatives or friends that go to the Unitarian church, or do you live near one? The former is the position I'm in, and that's why I've replied to a couple of your posts on that. I won't keep putting in my same link, but I described how these people are putting themselves out of business (but unfortunately playing a part in dragging the rest of us down with them).

    Once in a while they have a good yard sale though, and I scored a nice couch for $30.
    , @Sarah Toga
    Yeah, the U-U Church seems conflicted on this.
    They sometimes brag about connections to important historical figures, other times they virtue signal sympathy for supposed victims of those same important historical figures.

    When I took the family to Plymouth, MA for an educational trip for the kids, I noticed the U-U Church tries to one-up the Congregationalists in their connection to the Plymouth Colony and to a number of Presidents. The Congregationalists often claim connection to the Pilgrims.

    However in Bradford's writings he stated the Pilgrims were close in theology and practice to the French Reformed Church, sometimes known as the Huguenots.

    Some U-U Churches sometimes do the "sympathy for the victim" thing by mourning for "native peoples" even while bragging that former Presidents were U-U people. John Adams is one President they claim, his home and library are in Quincy, MA, near Plymouth. John Adams' tomb is in a U-U Church building.

    I once read a U-U book on theology and use of Scripture - written around 1900 - at that time they carefully backed their views with references to Bible passages to support their stances. Not so much now.
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  12. George says:

    I don’t see the word “Pilgrim”

    Pilgrim thanksgiving is a Yankee attempt to coopt all US customs as originating in New England.

    President John F. Kennedy’s attempt to strike a compromise between the regional claims, by issuing Proclamation 3560 on November 5, 1963, stating, “Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and in Massachusetts, far from home in a lonely wilderness, set aside a time of thanksgiving. On the appointed day, they gave reverent thanks for their safety, for the health of their children, for the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together, and for the faith which united them with their God.”[20]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Hmm. If noted Boston Brahmin JFK recognized that some settlers on the James River officially declared Thanks (But no bounteous feasting? No chugging grog with the Wampanoag?), I guess your suggestion of equivalency is legit. :|

    Virginia may have been first, but the experience of Plymouth Pilgrims is indeed the inspiration for the event we celebrate today. Also:

    https://twitter.com/Prof_Groyper/status/933759264124014592
    , @CCZ
    “A number of the papers concerned with the initial establishment of Berkeley Hundred [James River, Virginia] survive and at least give an insight into what was intended. The undertaking was expected to reflect "to the honor of allmighty god, the inlargeinge of Christian religion and to the augmentation and renowne of the generall plantation in that cuntry, and the particular good and profit of ourselves, men and servants, as wee hope." There was a very special instruction, perhaps, of some unusual note: "wee ordaine that the day of our ships arrivall at the place assigned for plantation in the land of Virginia shall be yearly and perputualy keept holy as a day of thanksgiving to Almighty god."

    [The author asks] Was this the first specific Thanksgiving Day in America?”

    THE FIRST SEVENTEEN YEARS: Virginia, 1607-1624 By Charles E. Hatch, Jr. Virginia 350th Anniversary Celebration Corporation, Williamsburg, Virginia 1957

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3609412;view=1up;seq=65
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Pilgrim thanksgiving is a Yankee attempt to coopt all US customs as originating in New England.
     
    Yes, the first thanksgiving dinner was in Virginia, over a year before the Pilgrims arrived. But...

    It took the Virginians not twelve months, but twelve years, to hold such a feast. Why so long?

    And the idea came from an outsider, John Woodlief, just off the boat from England.

    The other thing that happened in Virginia in 1619 was the unloading of a peculiar cargo from the kingdom of Ndongo off-- depending on the source-- a Dutch, Spanish, or Portuguese vessel. Do you want to celebrate that?

    Plymouth wasn't the beginning of America, no, just that of normal (white) family life here.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    ...all US customs as originating in New England.
     
    I don't think any true New Englander would claim, or want to be associated with, Elvis's swivel hips. You can keep them!
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  13. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The Pilgrims were LGBTQ weren’t they?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    The Pilgrims were LGBTQ weren’t they?
     
    No, that would have been the gender fluid indigenous peoples. They were ruled by the matriarchy, and they had more Pokemon diversity points than anyone can imagine. It was at least twelve or thirteen per person. And life was Edenic in those days. They rode around on unicorns and subsisted on the Skittles that the unicorns routinely discharged from their nether parts. Plus, they had better sex than even the sex that women had under communist regimes.

    If was paradise.
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  14. @syonredux
    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant:

    Being thus arrived in a good harbor and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees & blessed the God of heaven, who had brought them over the vast & furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils & miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element. Being thus past the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before in their preparation (as may be remembered by that which went before), they had now no friends to welcome them, nor inns to entertain or refresh their weather-beaten bodies, no houses or much less towns to repair to, to seek for succor. It is recorded in scripture as a mercy to the apostle & his shipwrecked company, that the barbarians showed them no small kindness in refreshing them, but these savage barbarians, when they met with them were readier to fill their sides full of arrows then otherwise. And for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of that country know them to be sharp & violent & subject to cruel & fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search an unknown coast. Besides, what could they see but a hideous & desolate wilderness, full of wild beasts & wild men? And what multitudes there might be of them they knew not. Neither could they, as it were, go up to the top of Pisgah, to view from this wilderness a more goodly country to feed their hopes; for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to the heavens) they could have little solace or content in respect of any outward objects. For summer being done, all things stand upon them with a weather-beaten face; and the whole country, full of woods & thickets, represented a wild & savage hue. If they looked behind them, there was the mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar & gulf to separate them from all the civil parts of the world. What could now sustain them but the spirit of God & His grace? May not & ought not the children of these fathers, rightly say: Our fathers were Englishmen which came over this great ocean, and were ready to perish in this wilderness.
     
    William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(Plymouth_Colony_governor)

    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant.

    Makers, takers?

    Read More
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  15. eah says:

    In these days of anxiety and alienation

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  16. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    True they are tailoring the editorial to their reader core, but it’s a tepid offering. I’m surprised they didn’t claim the holiday originated with prominent New York lady vice-executives and assorted lounge singers giving thanks during 1996-97 for not having yet been molested by Donald J. Trump, the outstanding whitemale grope-bandit of that era as we all remember. Of course since Trump’s entire candidacy and then presidency has been an extended heel turn, the continuing Dudgeon Patrol attempt to Watergate him over sexual impropriety, uhhhhh not acknowledging the legitimacy of elections, uhhhhhh Russian BLM advertisers, uhhhh the Confederacy, uhhhh sexual impropriety again, only fades into the laugh track

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  17. Self-loathing, virtue signaling, victim-hood as the only source of virtue, and Western Civilization hating, the liberal way to “celebrate” [Un]Happy Thanksgiving.

    Someone I know, a member of the younger generation, used to spend their Thanksgivings while at Harvard going to Plymouth Rock and shrieking at the Atlantic Ocean.

    Read More
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  18. I am thankful that Steve reads the New York Times for me.

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    • Agree: EriK, Buffalo Joe
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  19. Moses says:
    @Anon
    Tell that to the Indians.

    No wonder they don't talk about Indians anymore.

    Emma Lazarus wanted them turned to wretched huddled masses in reservations.

    And what did forced inclusion do to Palestinians?

    They are huddled and wretched in Gaza and West Bank.

    Jews think they own America. And they want to force INCLUSION on whites so that whites will be a colonized people just like Palestinians.

    And what's this amnesty crap? Why dont these people wanna go back to their own nations and people? Do they hate their own kind? Can't they stand their own kind? If they can't stand their own kind, why should others stand them?

    And what’s this amnesty crap? Why dont these people wanna go back to their own nations and people? Do they hate their own kind? Can’t they stand their own kind?

    The only thing worse for a 3rd worlder than living in a country built by racist Whites is not being allowed to immigrate to a country built by racist Whites.

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  20. Danindc says:

    Steve – I’m giving thanks to you and your blog. How are you able to get better every year? When do we hit peak Steve? I’m hoping not until 2025 at least. Granted you have so much to work with in the current zeitgeist.

    I hope you and your family have a great Thanksgiving and some wealthy benefactors get you the compensation you deserve.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II
    Agree.
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  21. Trelane says:

    Here’s Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    Read More
    • Replies: @J1234
    And she'll be giving her land back to the Indians...when exactly?
    , @njguy73
    So Mayim Bialik didn't know until she was 35 (I'm two years older than her) than the point of the Macy's parade was to have Santa announce the start of Christmas shopping season.

    Did she never see Miracle on 34th Street?
    , @Pericles
    In Mayim Bialik's defense, it can't be any fun to vomit a flood of insects then catch fire on ordinary public holidays. Seek shelter in the 'Gogue, Mayim!
    , @bored identity
    "Four Reasons Why Woody Bialik Doesn't Like Thanksgiving?"

    Four Reasons, you say?

    What a Bulltzpah !

    Stay assured that there is only one reason.
    , @anon
    Getting lectured by hideous, annoying, ungrateful celebrities is one thing. But getting lectured by hideous, annoying celebrities who are just telling me something I have heard literally every single year since I was a child is on another level.

    Why do these people act like it's some big revelation that we took this country from the Indians? Like that's going to change my mind or anything?

    Us taking this country from the Indians seems like it worked out pretty well for Mayim Bialik. She's been wealthy and famous since she was like ten years old, all because some casting director thought she looked like a young Bette Midler.

    I know that she's not really capable of feeling gratitude, but the least she could do is fake it.

    , @AnotherDad
    I refuse to watch on general principle--really I need more "bad goyim!, bad!" lectures from tedious Jews?

    But seriously, if you are butt ugly and can't dance why are you an "entertainer"? I mean I know why someone gave say Ashley Judd a movie role back in the day--enabling her to now feel entitled to lecture us--she was, pre-wall, pretty darn cute. But this ugly cow?
    , @Mr. Anon
    Celebrating a holiday that commemorates historical crimes and injustices certainly is deplorable. For example, if people were to celebrate a holiday that commemorates, among other things, the despoilation of an entire country, and the death of all that country's first born children - even babies - that would be pretty awful. I'm sure Mayim Bialik would agree.
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  22. PhDPepper says:
    @ChrisZ
    I suppose one should be grateful that the Times still acknowledges that there might be some unifying, characteristically American institutions out there that deserve something other than scorn.

    But I’m surprised that in their post-modern foodie mania the editors missed the significance of the meals they chose to describe.

    It’s not uncommon for the decendants of immigrants from earlier times to embellish the traditional Thanksgiving feast with items from their native cuisines. That’s indicative of the older style of assimilation: embrace the larger customs of America (the turkey, cranberry sauce, etc.) and let your Old World traditions play a subordinate role (as appetizers or side dishes).

    What about the “new-style” immigrants described in the Times editorial? They reject the Thanksgiving feast wholesale in favor of their own everyday cuisine (tandoori chicken and naan), and even express a disdainful moral superiority to the American tradition (agitating for a meatless feast).

    In other words, as with so many other areas of life, the new immigrants (and the Times) accept American institutions in name only, but feel free to empty out the content of longstanding practice, and replace it with anything else of their choosing.

    On a happier note, I want to wish our hosts and my fellow commenters a very pleasant Thanksgiving.

    “On a happier note, I want to wish our hosts and my fellow commenters a very pleasant Thanksgiving.”

    To you as well, God Bless.

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  23. eD says:

    Thanksgiving really isn’t about the Pilgrims.

    Steve is a baby boomer and was no doubt raised on the Pilgrim story. I’m a Gen Xer and I certainly was.

    However, the tradition of annual Thanksgiving proclamations was started by Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War and was designed to boost support for the Union cause in the war. Later on during the New Deal, it was made a federal holiday and set when it was to fix the Christmas shopping season at an earlier date than had been the custom. Then, as now, people really believed that it was important for the economy that people went out and spent lots of money in December.

    The truth is that the “Black Friday” part is really the point of the whole thing. To the extent it isn’t, its the Civil War legacy. For obvious reasons, most people prefer the Pilgrim story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Historical commemorations are always about the events being commemorated as well as the time doing the commemorating. That Lincoln and Roosevelt had contemporary motivations doesn't mean it wasn't also about the Pilgrims.

    Some on the left made a big deal after Charlottesville about how most of the Confederate statues were erected decades after the Civil War. The Portuguese built a giant statue commemorating Afonse de Albuquerque centuries after his death. It's not a coincidence that they built a decade or so after the British Ultimatum, so it's partly a reaction to that, but it's also about the history of their empire.
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  24. Halloween distinctly Christian? Sure, Samhain’s been rehabilitated into something along those lines, though only barely tenuously; nothing like the arguable extent to which Yule, the Saturnalia, and various celebrations of the vernal equinox can be said to undergird the other two much more inarguably Christian holy days mentioned.

    Anyone who would write that Halloween is distinctly Christian is a dumbass with no credibility.

    All three holidays, by the by, have now of course in turn been rehabilitated into mindless and meaningless homages to consumerism and selfishness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux
    Well, since Halloween is a Christian-Pagan combo, it should be off-limits to observant Jews....
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  25. Dr. X says:
    @syonredux
    William Bradford on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health and strength and had all things in good plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad, others were exercised in fishing, about cod and bass and other fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had their portion. All the summer there was no want; and now began to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they can be used (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc. Besides, they had about a peck a meal a week to a person, or now since harvest, Indian corn to the proportion. Which made many afterwards write so largely of their plenty here to their friends in England, which were not feigned but true reports
     
    Edward Winslow on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruits of our labor. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.
     
    Bradford on the Thanksgiving of 1623:

    And afterwards the Lord sent them such seasonable showers, with interchange of fair warm weather as, through His blessing, caused a fruitful and liberal harvest, to their no small comfort and rejoicing. For which mercy, in time convenient, they also set apart a day of thanksgiving… By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine now God gave them plenty … for which they blessed God. And the effect of their particular planting was well seen, for all had … pretty well … so as any general want or famine had not been amongst them since to this day
     

    …They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God

    …So, in other words, Thanksgiving is about God-fearing, gun-owning, meat-eating hunters who also enjoy a bit of recreational target shooting.

    Sweet.

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    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    …So, in other words, Thanksgiving is about God-fearing, gun-owning, meat-eating hunters who also enjoy a bit of recreational target shooting.
     
    Yep. And what I think about is how ballsy these guys were. (Religious loons--but ballsy.) They are going out to the new world with maybe a year's supplies and essentially no support from their previous culture. And while their capabilities are very high, their basic technology for both self-defense and hunting is based on a real complex technology. It's not like they were bow hunters who all knew how to select wood and make bows. They landed with their stock of powder, but to survive long term would have find sulphur and saltpeter to make more powder, would have to find and smelt lead to make more balls. They were hanging it out there.
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  26. syonredux says:
    @anon
    A child of Orthodox Jewish immigrants could feel his apartness on other festivals celebrated by the larger society.

    I guess I'd feel a bit sorrier for them if Orthodox Jews didn't go out of their way to separate themselves from normal society.

    If an Amish person started complaining to you that he never gets references people make to Stranger Things, would your first impulse be to feel sorry for him, or would you just point out that YOU weren't the one telling him not to get electricity, and that if he wanted to, he could?

    But then, I don't imagine the Amish would act that way.

    A child of Orthodox Jewish immigrants could feel his apartness on other festivals celebrated by the larger society.

    I guess I’d feel a bit sorrier for them if Orthodox Jews didn’t go out of their way to separate themselves from normal society.

    Yeah, isn’t keeping apart from the unclean goyim the whole point of observing every jot and tittle of Jewish ritual law…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @biz
    No, no it's not.

    The basis of Orthodox Judaism is believing in the literal truth of the prescriptions and proscriptions for life in the Torah, in order to bear the burden of maintaining the Covenant with G-d. These prescriptions and proscriptions - things like not performing any sort of work (interpreted to include driving or using electricity) starting at sundown on Friday, shaving with a blade, dressing in a specific, modest manner, etc. - make living fully in mainstream society impossible.
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  27. syonredux says:
    @Autochthon
    Halloween distinctly Christian? Sure, Samhain's been rehabilitated into something along those lines, though only barely tenuously; nothing like the arguable extent to which Yule, the Saturnalia, and various celebrations of the vernal equinox can be said to undergird the other two much more inarguably Christian holy days mentioned.

    Anyone who would write that Halloween is distinctly Christian is a dumbass with no credibility.

    All three holidays, by the by, have now of course in turn been rehabilitated into mindless and meaningless homages to consumerism and selfishness.

    Well, since Halloween is a Christian-Pagan combo, it should be off-limits to observant Jews….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    I understand that Jews have Purim as the costume and candy holiday.
    , @Joe Walker
    Since the United States is over 95% gentile, shouldn't it also be off-limits to observant Jews?
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  28. @syonredux
    William Bradford on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health and strength and had all things in good plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad, others were exercised in fishing, about cod and bass and other fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had their portion. All the summer there was no want; and now began to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they can be used (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc. Besides, they had about a peck a meal a week to a person, or now since harvest, Indian corn to the proportion. Which made many afterwards write so largely of their plenty here to their friends in England, which were not feigned but true reports
     
    Edward Winslow on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruits of our labor. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.
     
    Bradford on the Thanksgiving of 1623:

    And afterwards the Lord sent them such seasonable showers, with interchange of fair warm weather as, through His blessing, caused a fruitful and liberal harvest, to their no small comfort and rejoicing. For which mercy, in time convenient, they also set apart a day of thanksgiving… By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine now God gave them plenty … for which they blessed God. And the effect of their particular planting was well seen, for all had … pretty well … so as any general want or famine had not been amongst them since to this day
     

    Syon, thank you for the information. And in a land so bountiful the Indians still would not share with other tribes and killed, kidnapped, raped and tortured long before the Pilgrims arrived.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    Our aboriginals did have some notion of compromise with other tribes, observed in the name that they gave for a New England river: You fish on your side, we fish on our side, nobody fishes in the middle. Now they look at who fishes in their casino.

    More recent arrivals say: The fishing franchise is mine, now let me hire anyone from anywhere to work it, and subsidize me.
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  29. Anon7 says:

    Everything serves the Narrative, everything is correct politics. I just saw the new “Murder on the Orient Express”, a perfectly good production ruined by discussions about race politics that were nowhere to be found in the book. Over and over and over. I’m sorry it came to this, Dame Agatha.

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  30. Barnard says:
    @syonredux
    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant:

    Being thus arrived in a good harbor and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees & blessed the God of heaven, who had brought them over the vast & furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils & miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element. Being thus past the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before in their preparation (as may be remembered by that which went before), they had now no friends to welcome them, nor inns to entertain or refresh their weather-beaten bodies, no houses or much less towns to repair to, to seek for succor. It is recorded in scripture as a mercy to the apostle & his shipwrecked company, that the barbarians showed them no small kindness in refreshing them, but these savage barbarians, when they met with them were readier to fill their sides full of arrows then otherwise. And for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of that country know them to be sharp & violent & subject to cruel & fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search an unknown coast. Besides, what could they see but a hideous & desolate wilderness, full of wild beasts & wild men? And what multitudes there might be of them they knew not. Neither could they, as it were, go up to the top of Pisgah, to view from this wilderness a more goodly country to feed their hopes; for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to the heavens) they could have little solace or content in respect of any outward objects. For summer being done, all things stand upon them with a weather-beaten face; and the whole country, full of woods & thickets, represented a wild & savage hue. If they looked behind them, there was the mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar & gulf to separate them from all the civil parts of the world. What could now sustain them but the spirit of God & His grace? May not & ought not the children of these fathers, rightly say: Our fathers were Englishmen which came over this great ocean, and were ready to perish in this wilderness.
     
    William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(Plymouth_Colony_governor)

    I read that passage from Bradford this morning. It is worth noting that a big part of the reason the Pilgrims came to North America was that they did not want their children to assimilate into Dutch culture. They were also concerned the Spanish could retake the Netherlands after their treaty ended and they could be forced into Catholicism.

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  31. @George
    I don’t see the word “Pilgrim”

    Pilgrim thanksgiving is a Yankee attempt to coopt all US customs as originating in New England.

    President John F. Kennedy's attempt to strike a compromise between the regional claims, by issuing Proclamation 3560 on November 5, 1963, stating, "Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and in Massachusetts, far from home in a lonely wilderness, set aside a time of thanksgiving. On the appointed day, they gave reverent thanks for their safety, for the health of their children, for the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together, and for the faith which united them with their God."[20]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

    Hmm. If noted Boston Brahmin JFK recognized that some settlers on the James River officially declared Thanks (But no bounteous feasting? No chugging grog with the Wampanoag?), I guess your suggestion of equivalency is legit. :|

    Virginia may have been first, but the experience of Plymouth Pilgrims is indeed the inspiration for the event we celebrate today. Also:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Virginia may have been first, but the experience of Plymouth Pilgrims is indeed the inspiration for the event we celebrate today.
     
    Because the Victors Write the History, and there was once this little misunderstanding called the Civil War.

    Incidentally, the "Pilgrims" believed they had landed in Virginia. And in fact they had, for all of English America was 'Virginia' at the time.

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  32. J1234 says:
    @Trelane
    Here's Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    https://youtu.be/AJkOHavUH_A?t=136

    http://cache04.stormap.sapo.pt/dld/854ec270caae2ed8ec1beb96201ac2cb/5a1781f5/vidstore05/videos/21/ef/18/2071494_iJK6K.mp4

    And she’ll be giving her land back to the Indians…when exactly?

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  33. Maj. Kong says:
    @syonredux
    Well, since Halloween is a Christian-Pagan combo, it should be off-limits to observant Jews....

    I understand that Jews have Purim as the costume and candy holiday.

    Read More
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  34. Maj. Kong says:
    @anon
    I looked it up, and actually, the whole reason the Pilgrims came here was in order to give Somali Muslims a place to go when they screwed up their own country.

    Lincoln may well have anticipated all those convictions — Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish and Christian — when in 1863 he proclaimed the last Thursday in November to be “a day of Thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.

    I suppose he may have, but he didn't, and the person who wrote this knows it as well as I do.

    It really gets on my nerves when NYT people pretend not to understand why everyone hates them.

    The WSJ is arguably centrist, which gets called “far-right” by the standards of far-left NYC.

    The Unification Church’s Washington Times is understood as a nakedly partisan rightist outlet, but somehow WaPo and the NYT aren’t seen the same way…

    Read More
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  35. njguy73 says:
    @Trelane
    Here's Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    https://youtu.be/AJkOHavUH_A?t=136

    http://cache04.stormap.sapo.pt/dld/854ec270caae2ed8ec1beb96201ac2cb/5a1781f5/vidstore05/videos/21/ef/18/2071494_iJK6K.mp4

    So Mayim Bialik didn’t know until she was 35 (I’m two years older than her) than the point of the Macy’s parade was to have Santa announce the start of Christmas shopping season.

    Did she never see Miracle on 34th Street?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Whooping Crane Cough Dept: My first thought was, "So John Mayer was nailing THIS kosherbeast??"

    Then I looked it up, no, he was doing Minka Kelly. Minka just sounded Jewish to me. Sorry.
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  36. With all due respect, Mr. Sailer, the editorial does not focus on the Jews nearly as much as you do.

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  37. Joe Walker says: • Website
    @syonredux
    Well, since Halloween is a Christian-Pagan combo, it should be off-limits to observant Jews....

    Since the United States is over 95% gentile, shouldn’t it also be off-limits to observant Jews?

    Read More
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  38. @syonredux
    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant:

    Being thus arrived in a good harbor and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees & blessed the God of heaven, who had brought them over the vast & furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils & miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element. Being thus past the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before in their preparation (as may be remembered by that which went before), they had now no friends to welcome them, nor inns to entertain or refresh their weather-beaten bodies, no houses or much less towns to repair to, to seek for succor. It is recorded in scripture as a mercy to the apostle & his shipwrecked company, that the barbarians showed them no small kindness in refreshing them, but these savage barbarians, when they met with them were readier to fill their sides full of arrows then otherwise. And for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of that country know them to be sharp & violent & subject to cruel & fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search an unknown coast. Besides, what could they see but a hideous & desolate wilderness, full of wild beasts & wild men? And what multitudes there might be of them they knew not. Neither could they, as it were, go up to the top of Pisgah, to view from this wilderness a more goodly country to feed their hopes; for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to the heavens) they could have little solace or content in respect of any outward objects. For summer being done, all things stand upon them with a weather-beaten face; and the whole country, full of woods & thickets, represented a wild & savage hue. If they looked behind them, there was the mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar & gulf to separate them from all the civil parts of the world. What could now sustain them but the spirit of God & His grace? May not & ought not the children of these fathers, rightly say: Our fathers were Englishmen which came over this great ocean, and were ready to perish in this wilderness.
     
    William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(Plymouth_Colony_governor)

    Agree.

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  39. Steve, I’m sensing that you have come to the conclusion that citizenism is utopian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Not Steve, but:

    Citizenism requires citizens, not looters and parasites.

    , @Kylie
    I wish. Unfortunately, Steve is so preternaturally nice that he's probably still in favor of citizenism. It becomes less and less feasible as the U.S. becomes more and more riven by tribalism.

    Many whites don't seem to understand how utterly foreign to their thought processes are the thought processes of non-whites, especially black non-whites.

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  40. Joe Walker says: • Website

    Christmas, Easter, Halloween — all are distinctly Christian observances, no matter how temporal and commercialized they have become.

    Halloween – the day devout Christians remember that Count Dracula died for our sins.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Actually, the two days after Halloween are the holy ones.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Lol!
    , @Desiderius
    Undead, Risen, tomayto, tomahto...
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  41. @Danindc
    Steve - I'm giving thanks to you and your blog. How are you able to get better every year? When do we hit peak Steve? I'm hoping not until 2025 at least. Granted you have so much to work with in the current zeitgeist.

    I hope you and your family have a great Thanksgiving and some wealthy benefactors get you the compensation you deserve.

    Agree.

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  42. @Anonymous
    The Pilgrims were LGBTQ weren't they?

    The Pilgrims were LGBTQ weren’t they?

    No, that would have been the gender fluid indigenous peoples. They were ruled by the matriarchy, and they had more Pokemon diversity points than anyone can imagine. It was at least twelve or thirteen per person. And life was Edenic in those days. They rode around on unicorns and subsisted on the Skittles that the unicorns routinely discharged from their nether parts. Plus, they had better sex than even the sex that women had under communist regimes.

    If was paradise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    Except for the rapey groping.
    , @Sarah Toga
    this chick is not ugly, not good looking - just plain.

    I remember when show biz was for good-looking people. Who pleased their audiences. Sigh.
    Anyone remember those girls from "Petticoat Junction"? Or "Charlie's Angels"?
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  43. CCZ says:
    @George
    I don’t see the word “Pilgrim”

    Pilgrim thanksgiving is a Yankee attempt to coopt all US customs as originating in New England.

    President John F. Kennedy's attempt to strike a compromise between the regional claims, by issuing Proclamation 3560 on November 5, 1963, stating, "Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and in Massachusetts, far from home in a lonely wilderness, set aside a time of thanksgiving. On the appointed day, they gave reverent thanks for their safety, for the health of their children, for the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together, and for the faith which united them with their God."[20]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

    “A number of the papers concerned with the initial establishment of Berkeley Hundred [James River, Virginia] survive and at least give an insight into what was intended. The undertaking was expected to reflect “to the honor of allmighty god, the inlargeinge of Christian religion and to the augmentation and renowne of the generall plantation in that cuntry, and the particular good and profit of ourselves, men and servants, as wee hope.” There was a very special instruction, perhaps, of some unusual note: “wee ordaine that the day of our ships arrivall at the place assigned for plantation in the land of Virginia shall be yearly and perputualy keept holy as a day of thanksgiving to Almighty god.”

    [The author asks] Was this the first specific Thanksgiving Day in America?”

    THE FIRST SEVENTEEN YEARS: Virginia, 1607-1624 By Charles E. Hatch, Jr. Virginia 350th Anniversary Celebration Corporation, Williamsburg, Virginia 1957

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3609412;view=1up;seq=65

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  44. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Hmm. If noted Boston Brahmin JFK recognized that some settlers on the James River officially declared Thanks (But no bounteous feasting? No chugging grog with the Wampanoag?), I guess your suggestion of equivalency is legit. :|

    Virginia may have been first, but the experience of Plymouth Pilgrims is indeed the inspiration for the event we celebrate today. Also:

    https://twitter.com/Prof_Groyper/status/933759264124014592

    Virginia may have been first, but the experience of Plymouth Pilgrims is indeed the inspiration for the event we celebrate today.

    Because the Victors Write the History, and there was once this little misunderstanding called the Civil War.

    Incidentally, the “Pilgrims” believed they had landed in Virginia. And in fact they had, for all of English America was ‘Virginia’ at the time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    According to Berkeley Plantation official website, the “Nibley Papers” documenting the Berkeley Hundred/London Company ceremonial prayers of Thanksgiving were first publicized on April 3, 1931, so President Lincoln didn’t steal Thanksgiving from Virginians.

    Under the heading Thanksgiving:

    Historians note that in the early days, the celebration of Thanksgiving was strictly a religious experience, focused entirely on prayer. It was a solemn affair, not a festival of food, such as our friends in Massachusetts had experienced.

    On November 9, 1962 Virginia State Senator John J. Wicker sent a telegram to President John F. Kennedy taking issue with President Kennedy’s 1962 Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamation, where full credit for Thanksgiving was given to the pilgrims in Massachusetts. Senator Wicker claimed he had already proven to the Governor of Massachusetts the validity of Virginia’s claim by simply displaying the records to him.
     
    In response, Senator Wicker received an apologetic reply from famed Historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. writing on behalf of the President. Mr. Schlesinger attributed the “error” to unconquerable New England bias on the part of the White House staff.
     
    The White House mended its ways. President Kennedy’s next Thanksgiving Proclamation on November 5, 1963, stated that “Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and Massachusetts, far from home, in a lonely wilderness set aside a time of Thanksgiving. They gave thanks for their safety, the health of their children, the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together and for the faith which united them with their God.” Finally, Virginia was given its rightful recognition and place in history! To put this in historical perspective, Kennedy was assassinated, in Dallas, just 18 days later.
     

    It is interesting to note that on October 3, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln issued the first Thanksgiving Proclamation. Just five days prior he had received a letter from Sarah Josepha Hale, a 74 year old magazine editor, who had been advocating a national thanksgiving date for 15 years as editor of Godey’s Lady’s Book. Lincoln listened, where other presidents ignored her. It was at that point, that the last Thursday of November was set as a national “day of Thanksgiving and praise.”
     

    The annual Berkeley religious ceremony was performed as a result of specific instructions given by the London Company to do so. (…)

    Massachusetts didn’t even publish a proclamation ordaining such a Thanksgiving observance until 1633, 12 years after their first celebration. The Massachusetts event was a harvest feast with their Native American friends, whereas the Berkeley event was strictly religious.
     
    To sum up, the Berkeley Thanksgiving was mandatory written orders to prayer from corporate, while Plymouth Colony had a spontaneous harvest festival later melded with gratitude for divine providence, in a colony that was never abandoned and which kept alive an organic tradition which became America’s Thanksgiving, unlike the London Company’s ritual that was soon forgotten in Virginia until the 20th Century.
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  45. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Most of the English speaking countries have a Thanksgiving of some sort during November. The thing specifically named Thanksgiving started not as an ancient custom or religious holiday, but as a political act by leading English Catholics in the government to assert their loyalty to Protestant England after the failure of the Gunpower plot (the attempt by Guy Fawkes and others to blow up the House of Lords; “Remember, remember the 5th of November…”)

    Observance of 5th November Act 1605:

    “The Observance of 5th November Act 1605, also known as the “Thanksgiving Act”, was an Act of the Parliament of England passed in 1606 in the aftermath of the Gunpowder Plot… called for a public, annual thanksgiving for the failure of the plot…”

    “…And to the End this unfeigned Thankfulness may never be forgotten, but be had in a perpetual Remembrance, that all Ages to come may yield Praises to his Divine Majesty for the same, and have in Memory this joyful Day of Deliverance …”

    Thanksgiving Act, http://www.parliament.uk, Parliament Archives, “An Act for a Public Thanksgiving to Almighty God every Year on the Fifth Day of November. [Thanksgiving Act]“

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Guy Falkes was REPORTED by other Catholics, who wanted no part of his plot. Not always remembered.
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  46. @George
    I don’t see the word “Pilgrim”

    Pilgrim thanksgiving is a Yankee attempt to coopt all US customs as originating in New England.

    President John F. Kennedy's attempt to strike a compromise between the regional claims, by issuing Proclamation 3560 on November 5, 1963, stating, "Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and in Massachusetts, far from home in a lonely wilderness, set aside a time of thanksgiving. On the appointed day, they gave reverent thanks for their safety, for the health of their children, for the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together, and for the faith which united them with their God."[20]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

    Pilgrim thanksgiving is a Yankee attempt to coopt all US customs as originating in New England.

    Yes, the first thanksgiving dinner was in Virginia, over a year before the Pilgrims arrived. But…

    It took the Virginians not twelve months, but twelve years, to hold such a feast. Why so long?

    And the idea came from an outsider, John Woodlief, just off the boat from England.

    The other thing that happened in Virginia in 1619 was the unloading of a peculiar cargo from the kingdom of Ndongo off– depending on the source– a Dutch, Spanish, or Portuguese vessel. Do you want to celebrate that?

    Plymouth wasn’t the beginning of America, no, just that of normal (white) family life here.

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  47. @Joe Walker
    Christmas, Easter, Halloween — all are distinctly Christian observances, no matter how temporal and commercialized they have become.

    Halloween - the day devout Christians remember that Count Dracula died for our sins.

    Actually, the two days after Halloween are the holy ones.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    It is short for All Hallows Eve, meaning the vigil of All Saints Day.
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  48. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Return of Shawn
    Steve, I'm sensing that you have come to the conclusion that citizenism is utopian.

    Not Steve, but:

    Citizenism requires citizens, not looters and parasites.

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  49. “With all due respect, Mr. Sailer, the editorial does not focus on the Jews nearly as much as you do.”

    Steve Sailer’s anti-semitism gets worse every month.

    Does Mr. Sailer know anti-semites are illegal?

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  50. @George
    I don’t see the word “Pilgrim”

    Pilgrim thanksgiving is a Yankee attempt to coopt all US customs as originating in New England.

    President John F. Kennedy's attempt to strike a compromise between the regional claims, by issuing Proclamation 3560 on November 5, 1963, stating, "Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and in Massachusetts, far from home in a lonely wilderness, set aside a time of thanksgiving. On the appointed day, they gave reverent thanks for their safety, for the health of their children, for the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together, and for the faith which united them with their God."[20]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

    …all US customs as originating in New England.

    I don’t think any true New Englander would claim, or want to be associated with, Elvis’s swivel hips. You can keep them!

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  51. I seriously don’t know where people like this get their stuff. I grew up in a neighborhood where most people were Italian, Irish, or Jewish, with a few Hispanics. It was not nearly as paranoid as what this article is describing. Everybody went carolling, the girls all went to “Nutcracker,” everybody did costumes and went trick-or-treating on Halloween, everybody went to each other’s Bar Mitzvahs or Quinces. They weren’t being “multicultural” or “tolerant,” it was a PARTY.

    Why can’t people have any fun anymore without everything being measured for virtue-signalling or accusations?

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  52. MEH 0910 says:

    “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.”

    “Zardoz speaks to you, His chosen ones.”

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  53. @anonymous
    Most of the English speaking countries have a Thanksgiving of some sort during November. The thing specifically named Thanksgiving started not as an ancient custom or religious holiday, but as a political act by leading English Catholics in the government to assert their loyalty to Protestant England after the failure of the Gunpower plot (the attempt by Guy Fawkes and others to blow up the House of Lords; "Remember, remember the 5th of November...")

    Observance of 5th November Act 1605:


    "The Observance of 5th November Act 1605, also known as the "Thanksgiving Act", was an Act of the Parliament of England passed in 1606 in the aftermath of the Gunpowder Plot... called for a public, annual thanksgiving for the failure of the plot..."


    "...And to the End this unfeigned Thankfulness may never be forgotten, but be had in a perpetual Remembrance, that all Ages to come may yield Praises to his Divine Majesty for the same, and have in Memory this joyful Day of Deliverance ..."

     


     
    Thanksgiving Act, www.parliament.uk, Parliament Archives, "An Act for a Public Thanksgiving to Almighty God every Year on the Fifth Day of November. [Thanksgiving Act]"

    Guy Falkes was REPORTED by other Catholics, who wanted no part of his plot. Not always remembered.

    Read More
    • Replies: @helena
    I've heard this figure mentioned recently in a documentary. I assume it to be true but don't know where the figure comes from. It's actually quite startling if it's true - at the time of the gunpowder plot only 1% of the English population were Catholic.
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  54. @Joe Walker
    Christmas, Easter, Halloween — all are distinctly Christian observances, no matter how temporal and commercialized they have become.

    Halloween - the day devout Christians remember that Count Dracula died for our sins.

    Lol!

    Read More
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  55. Hibernian says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    Actually, the two days after Halloween are the holy ones.

    It is short for All Hallows Eve, meaning the vigil of All Saints Day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Brutusale
    Which was always one of the big upsides of a Catholic education: All Saints' Day was a Holy Day of Obligation and as such was a day off from school!

    While our Protestant and Jewish friends were slaving away in class, my brother and I were watching cartoons and conducting long, heated negotiations to establish the year's true trade values for Reese's Pieces and Peanut M&Ms! With a short time-out to go to Mass.
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  56. Kylie says:
    @Return of Shawn
    Steve, I'm sensing that you have come to the conclusion that citizenism is utopian.

    I wish. Unfortunately, Steve is so preternaturally nice that he’s probably still in favor of citizenism. It becomes less and less feasible as the U.S. becomes more and more riven by tribalism.

    Many whites don’t seem to understand how utterly foreign to their thought processes are the thought processes of non-whites, especially black non-whites.

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  57. Mercer says:

    “to make it non-triggering to the touchy new elites of the Current Year is so pervasive that it’s almost unnoticed.”

    Only some of the elites are non-triggered:

    ” the holiday as whitewashing the harm colonists did to indigenous people, refers to it as “Takesgiving” or “Hatesgiving.”

    Behold the new food commandments:

    ” serve “decolonized” meals, prepared with no pork, beef, dairy, processed cane sugar or wheat flour, ingredients that Europeans introduced into native diets. Avoiding these ingredients is also healthier, they say.”

    More about “columbusing” here

    :https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/this-is-not-a-trend-native-american-chefs-resist-the-columbusing-of-indigenous-foods/2017/11/21/a9ca5be6-c8ba-11e7-b0cf-7689a9f2d84e_story.html?utm_term=.2eebcc81f38f

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  58. Wilkey says:

    “For those who hold Thanksgiving as a day of sadness, who mourn for the hurt and loss of native peoples…we hold your heartache and sorrow so you do not have to carry the burden alone.”

    Yep – foreigners arriving uninvited in massive numbers and taking over the place. I can’t imagine how the natives must have felt.

    On a different note, here’s a silly question: how long did it take, from the time that Europeans first began arriving, for them to outnumber the natives in what is now the United States? Spaniards started settling in small numbers in, what, the early 1500s? Englishmen first started settling – at Roanoake unsuccessfully – in the 1580s. So probably about 200 years for natives to be outnumbered by the Europeans.

    Fast forward to today. How long will it take post-1965 immigrants from Latin America and Asia to outnumber the descendants of the people of overwhelmingly European descent who were here in 1965? At current rates I’d guess a lot less than 200 years. Which wave constitutes the real invasion?

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  59. Wilkey says:

    “The truth is that the “Black Friday” part is really the point of the whole thing. To the extent it isn’t, its the Civil War legacy. For obvious reasons, most people prefer the Pilgrim story.”

    Not really. There are feasts of all sorts, including harvest festivals, in a lot of cultures and religious traditions. American Thanksgiving, though, comes from not just Christian tradition but specifically from Protestant Christian tradition. It may have been fixed as a holiday by Lincoln, but the concept was hardly unfamiliar to most Americans of the time. Taking a free floating feast and attaching it to a specific date on a calendar is just one of those things governments are inclined to do. That doesn’t mean the government invented the holiday so much as played a role in its evolution.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CCZ
    A scan of some historic newspaper data bases reveals that the “Friday Sale” was a common event as early as the mid-1800s and references to a “Black Friday Sale” (“our lowest prices”) first appear in newspapers around 1885, but these “Black Friday Sale” advertisements are scattered all across the calendar. The “Black Friday Sale” on the day after Thanksgiving seems to first appear in newspaper advertisements around 1980 and, within a few years, becomes a prominent fixture of November/Thanksgiving advertising. Perhaps, the post-Thanksgiving “Black Friday Sale” is a more recent phenomena than we remember.
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  60. helena says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Guy Falkes was REPORTED by other Catholics, who wanted no part of his plot. Not always remembered.

    I’ve heard this figure mentioned recently in a documentary. I assume it to be true but don’t know where the figure comes from. It’s actually quite startling if it’s true – at the time of the gunpowder plot only 1% of the English population were Catholic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    And the majority were gentry-class recusants both overt and covert (landowners, dangerous for the government to start expropriating too blatantly as a class, irrespective of religion) who all hung out together, and realised this nutter could drop them all in it. Guy Fawkes' social circle was other Catholics, posh people who Actually Mattered and Got Things Done.
    That's how for example the 40 Martyrs were ferreted out, just put a man to watch the comings and goings each of the Big Houses, use (usually very Protestant and certainly easily scared) servants as informers, local gossip, find a loose thread, start pulling, reel in the lot. Gestapo in tall black hats.
    , @Anon
    It's probably untrue or at least questionable. I imagine it's derived from fines for recusancy, but there would have been a lot of looking the other way, bribing officers, dissembling at CoE services, even lost records. I remember reading somewhere that about (1/8) of dead Civil War officers were open Catholics, which could probably be extended to the general population c. 1640s.
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  61. Pericles says:
    @Trelane
    Here's Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    https://youtu.be/AJkOHavUH_A?t=136

    http://cache04.stormap.sapo.pt/dld/854ec270caae2ed8ec1beb96201ac2cb/5a1781f5/vidstore05/videos/21/ef/18/2071494_iJK6K.mp4

    In Mayim Bialik’s defense, it can’t be any fun to vomit a flood of insects then catch fire on ordinary public holidays. Seek shelter in the ‘Gogue, Mayim!

    Read More
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  62. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @eD
    Thanksgiving really isn't about the Pilgrims.

    Steve is a baby boomer and was no doubt raised on the Pilgrim story. I'm a Gen Xer and I certainly was.

    However, the tradition of annual Thanksgiving proclamations was started by Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War and was designed to boost support for the Union cause in the war. Later on during the New Deal, it was made a federal holiday and set when it was to fix the Christmas shopping season at an earlier date than had been the custom. Then, as now, people really believed that it was important for the economy that people went out and spent lots of money in December.

    The truth is that the "Black Friday" part is really the point of the whole thing. To the extent it isn't, its the Civil War legacy. For obvious reasons, most people prefer the Pilgrim story.

    Historical commemorations are always about the events being commemorated as well as the time doing the commemorating. That Lincoln and Roosevelt had contemporary motivations doesn’t mean it wasn’t also about the Pilgrims.

    Some on the left made a big deal after Charlottesville about how most of the Confederate statues were erected decades after the Civil War. The Portuguese built a giant statue commemorating Afonse de Albuquerque centuries after his death. It’s not a coincidence that they built a decade or so after the British Ultimatum, so it’s partly a reaction to that, but it’s also about the history of their empire.

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  63. CCZ says:
    @Wilkey
    "The truth is that the “Black Friday” part is really the point of the whole thing. To the extent it isn’t, its the Civil War legacy. For obvious reasons, most people prefer the Pilgrim story."

    Not really. There are feasts of all sorts, including harvest festivals, in a lot of cultures and religious traditions. American Thanksgiving, though, comes from not just Christian tradition but specifically from Protestant Christian tradition. It may have been fixed as a holiday by Lincoln, but the concept was hardly unfamiliar to most Americans of the time. Taking a free floating feast and attaching it to a specific date on a calendar is just one of those things governments are inclined to do. That doesn't mean the government invented the holiday so much as played a role in its evolution.

    A scan of some historic newspaper data bases reveals that the “Friday Sale” was a common event as early as the mid-1800s and references to a “Black Friday Sale” (“our lowest prices”) first appear in newspapers around 1885, but these “Black Friday Sale” advertisements are scattered all across the calendar. The “Black Friday Sale” on the day after Thanksgiving seems to first appear in newspaper advertisements around 1980 and, within a few years, becomes a prominent fixture of November/Thanksgiving advertising. Perhaps, the post-Thanksgiving “Black Friday Sale” is a more recent phenomena than we remember.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Yeah, it's not as if changing the date of Thanksgiving from the last Thursday to the 4th Thursday makes a huge difference in when it falls. If Thanksgiving is observed on the last Thursday in November then it will be anywhere from November 24-30. If it's the fourth Thursday in November then it falls anywhere from...November 22-28. Huge frickin' difference.

    So a holiday we were already observing is timed to slightly improve the retail calendar? Whatever. If we can game it a little for the economic good is that a bad thing? Hell, no one seems to give a crap that FedGov moved all those minor holidays to Mondays - including the one honoring the most important figure in our country's history, so that it now never even falls on his actual birthday and no one even realizes the legal holiday only honors him. Why? So that the handful of people who actually get the day off - mostly government employees - can have three day weekends.
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  64. @Anonymous

    Virginia may have been first, but the experience of Plymouth Pilgrims is indeed the inspiration for the event we celebrate today.
     
    Because the Victors Write the History, and there was once this little misunderstanding called the Civil War.

    Incidentally, the "Pilgrims" believed they had landed in Virginia. And in fact they had, for all of English America was 'Virginia' at the time.

    According to Berkeley Plantation official website, the “Nibley Papers” documenting the Berkeley Hundred/London Company ceremonial prayers of Thanksgiving were first publicized on April 3, 1931, so President Lincoln didn’t steal Thanksgiving from Virginians.

    Under the heading Thanksgiving:

    Historians note that in the early days, the celebration of Thanksgiving was strictly a religious experience, focused entirely on prayer. It was a solemn affair, not a festival of food, such as our friends in Massachusetts had experienced.

    On November 9, 1962 Virginia State Senator John J. Wicker sent a telegram to President John F. Kennedy taking issue with President Kennedy’s 1962 Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamation, where full credit for Thanksgiving was given to the pilgrims in Massachusetts. Senator Wicker claimed he had already proven to the Governor of Massachusetts the validity of Virginia’s claim by simply displaying the records to him.
     
    In response, Senator Wicker received an apologetic reply from famed Historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. writing on behalf of the President. Mr. Schlesinger attributed the “error” to unconquerable New England bias on the part of the White House staff.
     
    The White House mended its ways. President Kennedy’s next Thanksgiving Proclamation on November 5, 1963, stated that “Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and Massachusetts, far from home, in a lonely wilderness set aside a time of Thanksgiving. They gave thanks for their safety, the health of their children, the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together and for the faith which united them with their God.” Finally, Virginia was given its rightful recognition and place in history! To put this in historical perspective, Kennedy was assassinated, in Dallas, just 18 days later.

    It is interesting to note that on October 3, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln issued the first Thanksgiving Proclamation. Just five days prior he had received a letter from Sarah Josepha Hale, a 74 year old magazine editor, who had been advocating a national thanksgiving date for 15 years as editor of Godey’s Lady’s Book. Lincoln listened, where other presidents ignored her. It was at that point, that the last Thursday of November was set as a national “day of Thanksgiving and praise.”

    The annual Berkeley religious ceremony was performed as a result of specific instructions given by the London Company to do so. (…)

    Massachusetts didn’t even publish a proclamation ordaining such a Thanksgiving observance until 1633, 12 years after their first celebration. The Massachusetts event was a harvest feast with their Native American friends, whereas the Berkeley event was strictly religious.

    To sum up, the Berkeley Thanksgiving was mandatory written orders to prayer from corporate, while Plymouth Colony had a spontaneous harvest festival later melded with gratitude for divine providence, in a colony that was never abandoned and which kept alive an organic tradition which became America’s Thanksgiving, unlike the London Company’s ritual that was soon forgotten in Virginia until the 20th Century.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    You are just a little teeny tiny bit sad.
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  65. Pericles says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    The Pilgrims were LGBTQ weren’t they?
     
    No, that would have been the gender fluid indigenous peoples. They were ruled by the matriarchy, and they had more Pokemon diversity points than anyone can imagine. It was at least twelve or thirteen per person. And life was Edenic in those days. They rode around on unicorns and subsisted on the Skittles that the unicorns routinely discharged from their nether parts. Plus, they had better sex than even the sex that women had under communist regimes.

    If was paradise.

    Except for the rapey groping.

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  66. Mr. Anon says:

    Thanksgiving seems to be largely dead as a holiday anyway. It is now merely “Black Friday Eve”.

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  67. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Greetings, Sailer.

    Did you try to ctrl+F undocumented pilgrimmigrant ?

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  68. Greetings, Sailer.

    Did you try to ctrl+F “undocumented pilgrimmigrant” ?

    Read More
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  69. @Trelane
    Here's Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    https://youtu.be/AJkOHavUH_A?t=136

    http://cache04.stormap.sapo.pt/dld/854ec270caae2ed8ec1beb96201ac2cb/5a1781f5/vidstore05/videos/21/ef/18/2071494_iJK6K.mp4

    “Four Reasons Why Woody Bialik Doesn’t Like Thanksgiving?”

    Four Reasons, you say?

    What a Bulltzpah !

    Stay assured that there is only one reason.

    Read More
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  70. Altai says:

    The funny thing is how petty this is. It’s actually quite amusing that our national mythology has been hijacked in order to rectify the resentments people feel toward those who got to belong to Los Angeles Country Club back when great-grandpa was stuck belonging to Hillcrest Country Club, but if you aren’t Larry David this is no laughing matter, if you know what’s good for you.

    And they’ll never understand how other ethnic groups will never empathise with such a standard of deprivation. They never even thought about who was inhabiting the country club, they just saw rich people.

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  71. bossel says:

    Thanksgiving is now all about immigrants, not settlers,

    Somewhat ironic, this coming from you. Settlers, after all, were also a kind of immigrants (although closer to invaders, which is what immigrants to Europe are often called here). Funny, really…

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Thanksgiving is now all about immigrants, not settlers,

    Somewhat ironic, this coming from you. Settlers, after all, were also a kind of immigrants
     
    Get WOKE, bigot. Immigrants are doubleplusgood; settlers are doubleplusungood.
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  72. @helena
    I've heard this figure mentioned recently in a documentary. I assume it to be true but don't know where the figure comes from. It's actually quite startling if it's true - at the time of the gunpowder plot only 1% of the English population were Catholic.

    And the majority were gentry-class recusants both overt and covert (landowners, dangerous for the government to start expropriating too blatantly as a class, irrespective of religion) who all hung out together, and realised this nutter could drop them all in it. Guy Fawkes’ social circle was other Catholics, posh people who Actually Mattered and Got Things Done.
    That’s how for example the 40 Martyrs were ferreted out, just put a man to watch the comings and goings each of the Big Houses, use (usually very Protestant and certainly easily scared) servants as informers, local gossip, find a loose thread, start pulling, reel in the lot. Gestapo in tall black hats.

    Read More
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  73. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jenner Ickham Errican
    According to Berkeley Plantation official website, the “Nibley Papers” documenting the Berkeley Hundred/London Company ceremonial prayers of Thanksgiving were first publicized on April 3, 1931, so President Lincoln didn’t steal Thanksgiving from Virginians.

    Under the heading Thanksgiving:

    Historians note that in the early days, the celebration of Thanksgiving was strictly a religious experience, focused entirely on prayer. It was a solemn affair, not a festival of food, such as our friends in Massachusetts had experienced.

    On November 9, 1962 Virginia State Senator John J. Wicker sent a telegram to President John F. Kennedy taking issue with President Kennedy’s 1962 Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamation, where full credit for Thanksgiving was given to the pilgrims in Massachusetts. Senator Wicker claimed he had already proven to the Governor of Massachusetts the validity of Virginia’s claim by simply displaying the records to him.
     
    In response, Senator Wicker received an apologetic reply from famed Historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. writing on behalf of the President. Mr. Schlesinger attributed the “error” to unconquerable New England bias on the part of the White House staff.
     
    The White House mended its ways. President Kennedy’s next Thanksgiving Proclamation on November 5, 1963, stated that “Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and Massachusetts, far from home, in a lonely wilderness set aside a time of Thanksgiving. They gave thanks for their safety, the health of their children, the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together and for the faith which united them with their God.” Finally, Virginia was given its rightful recognition and place in history! To put this in historical perspective, Kennedy was assassinated, in Dallas, just 18 days later.
     

    It is interesting to note that on October 3, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln issued the first Thanksgiving Proclamation. Just five days prior he had received a letter from Sarah Josepha Hale, a 74 year old magazine editor, who had been advocating a national thanksgiving date for 15 years as editor of Godey’s Lady’s Book. Lincoln listened, where other presidents ignored her. It was at that point, that the last Thursday of November was set as a national “day of Thanksgiving and praise.”
     

    The annual Berkeley religious ceremony was performed as a result of specific instructions given by the London Company to do so. (…)

    Massachusetts didn’t even publish a proclamation ordaining such a Thanksgiving observance until 1633, 12 years after their first celebration. The Massachusetts event was a harvest feast with their Native American friends, whereas the Berkeley event was strictly religious.
     
    To sum up, the Berkeley Thanksgiving was mandatory written orders to prayer from corporate, while Plymouth Colony had a spontaneous harvest festival later melded with gratitude for divine providence, in a colony that was never abandoned and which kept alive an organic tradition which became America’s Thanksgiving, unlike the London Company’s ritual that was soon forgotten in Virginia until the 20th Century.

    You are just a little teeny tiny bit sad.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Awww who loves ya, baby? C’mere, let’s hug it out. :)
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  74. @Joe Walker
    Christmas, Easter, Halloween — all are distinctly Christian observances, no matter how temporal and commercialized they have become.

    Halloween - the day devout Christians remember that Count Dracula died for our sins.

    Undead, Risen, tomayto, tomahto…

    Read More
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  75. dearieme says:
    @syonredux
    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant:

    Being thus arrived in a good harbor and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees & blessed the God of heaven, who had brought them over the vast & furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils & miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element. Being thus past the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before in their preparation (as may be remembered by that which went before), they had now no friends to welcome them, nor inns to entertain or refresh their weather-beaten bodies, no houses or much less towns to repair to, to seek for succor. It is recorded in scripture as a mercy to the apostle & his shipwrecked company, that the barbarians showed them no small kindness in refreshing them, but these savage barbarians, when they met with them were readier to fill their sides full of arrows then otherwise. And for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of that country know them to be sharp & violent & subject to cruel & fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search an unknown coast. Besides, what could they see but a hideous & desolate wilderness, full of wild beasts & wild men? And what multitudes there might be of them they knew not. Neither could they, as it were, go up to the top of Pisgah, to view from this wilderness a more goodly country to feed their hopes; for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to the heavens) they could have little solace or content in respect of any outward objects. For summer being done, all things stand upon them with a weather-beaten face; and the whole country, full of woods & thickets, represented a wild & savage hue. If they looked behind them, there was the mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar & gulf to separate them from all the civil parts of the world. What could now sustain them but the spirit of God & His grace? May not & ought not the children of these fathers, rightly say: Our fathers were Englishmen which came over this great ocean, and were ready to perish in this wilderness.
     
    William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(Plymouth_Colony_governor)

    The difference between a settler and an immigrant is that the settlers certainly took possession of the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing, whereas some immigrants may not have that ambition.

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    • Replies: @Sarah Toga
    What if said land was empty?
    , @syonredux

    The difference between a settler and an immigrant is that the settlers certainly took possession of the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing, whereas some immigrants may not have that ambition.
     
    Which ones?
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  76. Svigor says:

    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant:

    site:oed.com immigrant
    site:merriam-webster.com immigrant

    Oxford Dictionary

    A person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.

    There was no country here. The arrivals from Europe built one out of the wilderness. Therefore the settlers were not immigrants, according to this definition.

    Also, immigrant status is not inherited, according to this definition; e.g., the NYT’s Board of Jews are not immigrants simply because their ancestors were.

    Many uses of immigrant seem to drop the “country” requirement and use “place” instead. In which case, Amerinds are the descendants of immigrants, too (Asians who came over the Bering Strait or Land Bridge). I’d guess Jews prefer using this tactic in Zion.

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  77. Svigor says:

    Lincoln knew his Bible, and was surely familiar with a passage from Exodus all too often ignored in our present era of hard feelings: “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.” …

    Jews are hilariously tone-deaf when it suits them. It’s probably the most over-quoted passage in the Old Testament, precisely so communists can abuse it in service of their nation- and humanity-wrecking agenda. The only time commies quote the Bible is to subvert Christianity in the interests of communism.

    What’s interesting is that Jews don’t get the filter of the New Covenant. It’s entirely possible to obviate passages like this for Christian doctrine, but not for Jewish doctrine. So Israel has a clear duty to take in refugees, according to the NYT’s Board of Jews, but the United States does not. Especially not in light of the Sacred American Wall Between Church And State that Jews are always wailing about; the State makes immigration policy, not the Church.

    P.S., God also said to not to tolerate foreign religions in our lands, to smash them and their idols, and to slaughter this tribe, and that tribe, and that one over there, and not to suffer a witch to live, and to put sodomites to death, and not to mix with other tribes and take on their foreign ways, and to never choose foreign rulers to rule over us, and…a Hell of a lot of stuff I’m way more comfortable with than the NYT’s Board of Jews are.

    (with one particular Ellis Island immigrant group’s sensitivities and resentments of course being given pride of place)

    Yeah, I was wondering whether you forgot your usual bracketed ellipses, or if the Times’ Board of Jews really did segue from Thanksgiving to Jews in only one short paragraph plus one sentence.

    Anyway, give thanks that the Times’ Board of Jews doesn’t have a time machine, and can’t go back in time to undo the victory white British men won over the native savages, paving the way to the United States.

    By the way, Thanksgiving and the British presence in America go back way further than not just the Ashkenazi Jewish population of the United States, but also further back than the United States itself. As far as I’m concerned, both of the latter are distantly secondary to the former.

    With all due respect, Mr. Sailer, the editorial does not focus on the Jews nearly as much as you do.

    Jews have pretty much nothing to do with Thanksgiving, and the only reason to mention them at all is in a single sentence mentioning all the other people who enjoy Thanksgiving for its relative lack of explicit Christian significance.

    That said, the entire piece is Jewish, and pushes the diaspora Jewish Narrative.

    Yeah, isn’t keeping apart from the unclean goyim the whole point of observing every jot and tittle of Jewish ritual law…..

    No. Christians forced Jews into ghettos and shtetls, wherever either were found, forever and ever, Amen.

    More of NYT op-ed columnist Brett Stephens’ sludge, “I have always thought of the United States as a country that belongs first to its newcomers …” where foreigners are more American than Americans.

    Obviously this has already been said here, but it bears repeating: this means the Brits rightly shoved the Amerinds aside.

    I’ve heard this figure mentioned recently in a documentary. I assume it to be true but don’t know where the figure comes from. It’s actually quite startling if it’s true – at the time of the gunpowder plot only 1% of the English population were Catholic.

    Probably not all that startling – it’s safe to assume that a lot more than 1% of Fawkes’ social circle was Catholic.

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  78. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @helena
    I've heard this figure mentioned recently in a documentary. I assume it to be true but don't know where the figure comes from. It's actually quite startling if it's true - at the time of the gunpowder plot only 1% of the English population were Catholic.

    It’s probably untrue or at least questionable. I imagine it’s derived from fines for recusancy, but there would have been a lot of looking the other way, bribing officers, dissembling at CoE services, even lost records. I remember reading somewhere that about (1/8) of dead Civil War officers were open Catholics, which could probably be extended to the general population c. 1640s.

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  79. Wilkey says:
    @CCZ
    A scan of some historic newspaper data bases reveals that the “Friday Sale” was a common event as early as the mid-1800s and references to a “Black Friday Sale” (“our lowest prices”) first appear in newspapers around 1885, but these “Black Friday Sale” advertisements are scattered all across the calendar. The “Black Friday Sale” on the day after Thanksgiving seems to first appear in newspaper advertisements around 1980 and, within a few years, becomes a prominent fixture of November/Thanksgiving advertising. Perhaps, the post-Thanksgiving “Black Friday Sale” is a more recent phenomena than we remember.

    Yeah, it’s not as if changing the date of Thanksgiving from the last Thursday to the 4th Thursday makes a huge difference in when it falls. If Thanksgiving is observed on the last Thursday in November then it will be anywhere from November 24-30. If it’s the fourth Thursday in November then it falls anywhere from…November 22-28. Huge frickin’ difference.

    So a holiday we were already observing is timed to slightly improve the retail calendar? Whatever. If we can game it a little for the economic good is that a bad thing? Hell, no one seems to give a crap that FedGov moved all those minor holidays to Mondays – including the one honoring the most important figure in our country’s history, so that it now never even falls on his actual birthday and no one even realizes the legal holiday only honors him. Why? So that the handful of people who actually get the day off – mostly government employees – can have three day weekends.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    I have a vague memory of it being the third Thursday when I was a kid, and at some point changing to the fourth. Is this just my hazy memory, or was there such a phase?
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  80. The USA, and every other nation, is only as durable as the myths that support its utility. We (Receptive Americans) managed to keep up a series of high quality myths justifying the existence of this nation for a good, long time. Now, those myths have been chipped away, eroded, corroded, and tarnished. There are concerted people attempting to establish new myths about the founding and utility of the US which leave no possibility of keeping the old ones. These new myths (a nation founded purposefully on exploitation and evils doing) are amazingly popular among a tiny number of Americans, but published and supported as though they are broadly accepted as factual.

    The problem seems to be that these new myths are not being embraced. Despite the advertising campaign, the dogs just don’t like the new dog food, so to speak. Another problem is that the old myths are broken, and cannot be returned to in any kind of a status quo ante manner. That nation is gone.

    So the search for some kind of mythological truths worthy of broad, popular emotional embrace continues. Unsuccessfully so far.

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  81. @CCZ
    Meanwhile, far too many of the white liberal descendants, successors, and beneficiaries of those English settlers denounce the celebration of Thanksgiving as the celebration of “colonization” and “genocide.” Show us your guilt!!

    I saw this in a local Unitarian-Universalist Church announcement:


    "For those who hold Thanksgiving as a day of sadness, who mourn for the hurt and loss of native peoples...we hold your heartache and sorrow so you do not have to carry the burden alone."

     
    Yes, we must always remember the sacred truth that native peoples did not themselves come from somewhere else and that they never waged war against each other or ruthlessly killed each other and only Europeans colonized. Genghis Khan conquered no one outside of little old Mongolia.

    Self-loathing, virtue signaling, victim-hood as the only source of virtue, and Western Civilization hating, the liberal way to “celebrate” [Un]Happy Thanksgiving.

    Hey CCZ, do you have some relatives or friends that go to the Unitarian church, or do you live near one? The former is the position I’m in, and that’s why I’ve replied to a couple of your posts on that. I won’t keep putting in my same link, but I described how these people are putting themselves out of business (but unfortunately playing a part in dragging the rest of us down with them).

    Once in a while they have a good yard sale though, and I scored a nice couch for $30.

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    • Replies: @CCZ
    I appreciate your asking.

    I had relatives married in a UU Church many years ago and for a few recent years attended a local UU Church, mostly because they had good adult discussion groups on topics like humanism and morals without formal religion and science and religion, like going to graduate school for free. But a few years ago, when they went all "anti-white supremacy," "race conscious education," TC Coates worshiping (and they do worship at his alter), and Black Lives Matter, I suggested that they consider some alternative perspectives. After being ignored and told that I was "offensive" for suggesting “character not color” is primary, that young black male violence should be part of the "conversation," and also that culture and class, not exclusively race, is largely responsible for the current level of inequality and disadvantage, I left.

    Interestingly, as some here have noted about women and SJW politics, the change from ethical or "spiritual" discussions to "racial consciousness" all came after the church replaced the retiring minister with a young lesbian, same-sex married minister and women became the majority of the governing body and almost all of the committee leaders. The church also went all World War Trans, supporting boys as girls as natural and biology as a "social construct," while calling climate change skeptics "science deniers."
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  82. Wilkey says:

    Mayim Bialik belongs to a religion that celebrates a day when her G-d slaughtered all the first born males of the Egypian people. It celebrates a few other genocides, as well. So please, Mayim, tell me all th ways in which your

    Thanksgiving doesn’t celebrate slaughter. It celebrates the survival of a people who left absolutely everything they knew – one of the richest, most advanced countries in all of the world – and crossed a dangerous ocean on a rickety little sailing vessel so they could build civilization almost from scratch, all so that the ungrateful assholes who came after – on steamships or airplanes invented by the descendants or relatives of those who crossed on the rickety little sailing vessels – could bitch about how evil they were. Go back to Israel, Mayim. I hear your people took that place from the natives fair and square. You can read about it – twice. Once in your scriptures and the second time in newspapers from the early part of the 20th Century.

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    • Replies: @anon
    You can read about it – twice. Once in your scriptures and the second time in newspapers from the early part of the 20th Century.

    I was thinking that Mayim Bialik was probably a secular Jew, so she could always say that these things don't apply to her, but no. According to her Wikipedia page, she was born Reform Jewish, but actually considers herself Orthodox Jewish now. What's more, she refers to herself as a "staunch Zionist".

    So yeah. She's totally in favor of people invading and conquering places. It's all just a matter of who's doing it.
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  83. Wilkey says:

    “Somewhat ironic, this coming from you. Settlers, after all, were also a kind of immigrants (although closer to invaders, which is what immigrants to Europe are often called here). Funny, really…”

    Yeah, yeah. We invaded the place and took over, and it’s ours now, at least for a few minutes longer.

    No one here really denies that Europeans stole the place from the natives. I certainly don’t. But that’s happened lots of places by lots of people in lots of times. We can’t change the past, but we can prevent bad shit happening in the future. I choose not to be conquered and replaced by foreigners. How about you, sport?

    Incidentally at the rate of immigration instigated by Tony Blair and Angela Merkel, Muslims and other Third Worlders will overrun Europe far faster than my “invader” ancestors overran the USA.

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  84. biz says:
    @syonredux

    A child of Orthodox Jewish immigrants could feel his apartness on other festivals celebrated by the larger society.

    I guess I’d feel a bit sorrier for them if Orthodox Jews didn’t go out of their way to separate themselves from normal society.
     
    Yeah, isn't keeping apart from the unclean goyim the whole point of observing every jot and tittle of Jewish ritual law.....

    No, no it’s not.

    The basis of Orthodox Judaism is believing in the literal truth of the prescriptions and proscriptions for life in the Torah, in order to bear the burden of maintaining the Covenant with G-d. These prescriptions and proscriptions – things like not performing any sort of work (interpreted to include driving or using electricity) starting at sundown on Friday, shaving with a blade, dressing in a specific, modest manner, etc. – make living fully in mainstream society impossible.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    No, no it’s not.
     
    Dunno. The dietary laws act as a pretty effective barrier, particularly in the pre-modern period.....At the very least, it made eating lunch at a goy's house a bit dicey....
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  85. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Trelane
    Here's Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    https://youtu.be/AJkOHavUH_A?t=136

    http://cache04.stormap.sapo.pt/dld/854ec270caae2ed8ec1beb96201ac2cb/5a1781f5/vidstore05/videos/21/ef/18/2071494_iJK6K.mp4

    Getting lectured by hideous, annoying, ungrateful celebrities is one thing. But getting lectured by hideous, annoying celebrities who are just telling me something I have heard literally every single year since I was a child is on another level.

    Why do these people act like it’s some big revelation that we took this country from the Indians? Like that’s going to change my mind or anything?

    Us taking this country from the Indians seems like it worked out pretty well for Mayim Bialik. She’s been wealthy and famous since she was like ten years old, all because some casting director thought she looked like a young Bette Midler.

    I know that she’s not really capable of feeling gratitude, but the least she could do is fake it.

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  86. Brutusale says:
    @Hibernian
    It is short for All Hallows Eve, meaning the vigil of All Saints Day.

    Which was always one of the big upsides of a Catholic education: All Saints’ Day was a Holy Day of Obligation and as such was a day off from school!

    While our Protestant and Jewish friends were slaving away in class, my brother and I were watching cartoons and conducting long, heated negotiations to establish the year’s true trade values for Reese’s Pieces and Peanut M&Ms! With a short time-out to go to Mass.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Yeah, but then you have to go to the cemetery on All Souls', which is somewhere between depressing and downright scary.
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  87. There are two words for “foreigner” in the Old Testament. One refers to the sojourners whom one should welcome and assist. The other refers to passers-by who can f— off and die.

    The former denotes foreigners who have a) sought permission to enter into and settle in Israel, and b) agreed to assimilate to Israel’s moral norms. In other words, all the OT “love the foreigner” passages are referring to what we might call legal, assimilating immigrants. No one, of course, bothers to quote passages about the other kind of foreigner, because they usually involve slaughter and destruction.

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  88. @Dr. X

    ...They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God...
     
    ...So, in other words, Thanksgiving is about God-fearing, gun-owning, meat-eating hunters who also enjoy a bit of recreational target shooting.

    Sweet.

    …So, in other words, Thanksgiving is about God-fearing, gun-owning, meat-eating hunters who also enjoy a bit of recreational target shooting.

    Yep. And what I think about is how ballsy these guys were. (Religious loons–but ballsy.) They are going out to the new world with maybe a year’s supplies and essentially no support from their previous culture. And while their capabilities are very high, their basic technology for both self-defense and hunting is based on a real complex technology. It’s not like they were bow hunters who all knew how to select wood and make bows. They landed with their stock of powder, but to survive long term would have find sulphur and saltpeter to make more powder, would have to find and smelt lead to make more balls. They were hanging it out there.

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  89. @dearieme
    The difference between a settler and an immigrant is that the settlers certainly took possession of the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing, whereas some immigrants may not have that ambition.

    What if said land was empty?

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  90. @syonredux
    RE:the difference between being a settler and an immigrant:

    Being thus arrived in a good harbor and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees & blessed the God of heaven, who had brought them over the vast & furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils & miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element. Being thus past the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before in their preparation (as may be remembered by that which went before), they had now no friends to welcome them, nor inns to entertain or refresh their weather-beaten bodies, no houses or much less towns to repair to, to seek for succor. It is recorded in scripture as a mercy to the apostle & his shipwrecked company, that the barbarians showed them no small kindness in refreshing them, but these savage barbarians, when they met with them were readier to fill their sides full of arrows then otherwise. And for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of that country know them to be sharp & violent & subject to cruel & fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search an unknown coast. Besides, what could they see but a hideous & desolate wilderness, full of wild beasts & wild men? And what multitudes there might be of them they knew not. Neither could they, as it were, go up to the top of Pisgah, to view from this wilderness a more goodly country to feed their hopes; for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to the heavens) they could have little solace or content in respect of any outward objects. For summer being done, all things stand upon them with a weather-beaten face; and the whole country, full of woods & thickets, represented a wild & savage hue. If they looked behind them, there was the mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar & gulf to separate them from all the civil parts of the world. What could now sustain them but the spirit of God & His grace? May not & ought not the children of these fathers, rightly say: Our fathers were Englishmen which came over this great ocean, and were ready to perish in this wilderness.
     
    William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(Plymouth_Colony_governor)

    Use of an original source – thank you for doing the real work of honesty history!

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  91. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wilkey
    Mayim Bialik belongs to a religion that celebrates a day when her G-d slaughtered all the first born males of the Egypian people. It celebrates a few other genocides, as well. So please, Mayim, tell me all th ways in which your

    Thanksgiving doesn't celebrate slaughter. It celebrates the survival of a people who left absolutely everything they knew - one of the richest, most advanced countries in all of the world - and crossed a dangerous ocean on a rickety little sailing vessel so they could build civilization almost from scratch, all so that the ungrateful assholes who came after - on steamships or airplanes invented by the descendants or relatives of those who crossed on the rickety little sailing vessels - could bitch about how evil they were. Go back to Israel, Mayim. I hear your people took that place from the natives fair and square. You can read about it - twice. Once in your scriptures and the second time in newspapers from the early part of the 20th Century.

    You can read about it – twice. Once in your scriptures and the second time in newspapers from the early part of the 20th Century.

    I was thinking that Mayim Bialik was probably a secular Jew, so she could always say that these things don’t apply to her, but no. According to her Wikipedia page, she was born Reform Jewish, but actually considers herself Orthodox Jewish now. What’s more, she refers to herself as a “staunch Zionist”.

    So yeah. She’s totally in favor of people invading and conquering places. It’s all just a matter of who’s doing it.

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  92. @syonredux
    William Bradford on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health and strength and had all things in good plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad, others were exercised in fishing, about cod and bass and other fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had their portion. All the summer there was no want; and now began to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they can be used (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc. Besides, they had about a peck a meal a week to a person, or now since harvest, Indian corn to the proportion. Which made many afterwards write so largely of their plenty here to their friends in England, which were not feigned but true reports
     
    Edward Winslow on the Thanksgiving in 1621:

    Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruits of our labor. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.
     
    Bradford on the Thanksgiving of 1623:

    And afterwards the Lord sent them such seasonable showers, with interchange of fair warm weather as, through His blessing, caused a fruitful and liberal harvest, to their no small comfort and rejoicing. For which mercy, in time convenient, they also set apart a day of thanksgiving… By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine now God gave them plenty … for which they blessed God. And the effect of their particular planting was well seen, for all had … pretty well … so as any general want or famine had not been amongst them since to this day
     

    Syon, thank you for continuing the lesson.
    In my own readings of Bradford’s history Of Plymouth Plantation, it seemed Bradford’s words about Massasoit and the Wampanoag Tribe reveal Bradford had a great fondness for the Sachem and his people. Which one would expect of a professing Christian like Bradford.

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  93. Svigor says:

    The difference between a settler and an immigrant is that the settlers certainly took possession of the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing, whereas some immigrants may not have that ambition.

    Working from the definitions that exist only in your head, you mean.

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  94. @Anon
    You are just a little teeny tiny bit sad.

    Awww who loves ya, baby? C’mere, let’s hug it out. :)

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  95. syonredux says:
    @bossel

    Thanksgiving is now all about immigrants, not settlers,
     
    Somewhat ironic, this coming from you. Settlers, after all, were also a kind of immigrants (although closer to invaders, which is what immigrants to Europe are often called here). Funny, really...

    Thanksgiving is now all about immigrants, not settlers,

    Somewhat ironic, this coming from you. Settlers, after all, were also a kind of immigrants

    Get WOKE, bigot. Immigrants are doubleplusgood; settlers are doubleplusungood.

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    • Replies: @Sarah Toga
    Didn't that diverse writer named I.B. Woke publish a book all about that?
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  96. @CCZ
    Meanwhile, far too many of the white liberal descendants, successors, and beneficiaries of those English settlers denounce the celebration of Thanksgiving as the celebration of “colonization” and “genocide.” Show us your guilt!!

    I saw this in a local Unitarian-Universalist Church announcement:


    "For those who hold Thanksgiving as a day of sadness, who mourn for the hurt and loss of native peoples...we hold your heartache and sorrow so you do not have to carry the burden alone."

     
    Yes, we must always remember the sacred truth that native peoples did not themselves come from somewhere else and that they never waged war against each other or ruthlessly killed each other and only Europeans colonized. Genghis Khan conquered no one outside of little old Mongolia.

    Self-loathing, virtue signaling, victim-hood as the only source of virtue, and Western Civilization hating, the liberal way to “celebrate” [Un]Happy Thanksgiving.

    Yeah, the U-U Church seems conflicted on this.
    They sometimes brag about connections to important historical figures, other times they virtue signal sympathy for supposed victims of those same important historical figures.

    When I took the family to Plymouth, MA for an educational trip for the kids, I noticed the U-U Church tries to one-up the Congregationalists in their connection to the Plymouth Colony and to a number of Presidents. The Congregationalists often claim connection to the Pilgrims.

    However in Bradford’s writings he stated the Pilgrims were close in theology and practice to the French Reformed Church, sometimes known as the Huguenots.

    Some U-U Churches sometimes do the “sympathy for the victim” thing by mourning for “native peoples” even while bragging that former Presidents were U-U people. John Adams is one President they claim, his home and library are in Quincy, MA, near Plymouth. John Adams’ tomb is in a U-U Church building.

    I once read a U-U book on theology and use of Scripture – written around 1900 – at that time they carefully backed their views with references to Bible passages to support their stances. Not so much now.

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  97. syonredux says:
    @biz
    No, no it's not.

    The basis of Orthodox Judaism is believing in the literal truth of the prescriptions and proscriptions for life in the Torah, in order to bear the burden of maintaining the Covenant with G-d. These prescriptions and proscriptions - things like not performing any sort of work (interpreted to include driving or using electricity) starting at sundown on Friday, shaving with a blade, dressing in a specific, modest manner, etc. - make living fully in mainstream society impossible.

    No, no it’s not.

    Dunno. The dietary laws act as a pretty effective barrier, particularly in the pre-modern period…..At the very least, it made eating lunch at a goy’s house a bit dicey….

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    You can observe dicey meals at any Seder or break-fast, depending on who selects which deli.
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  98. @syonredux

    Thanksgiving is now all about immigrants, not settlers,

    Somewhat ironic, this coming from you. Settlers, after all, were also a kind of immigrants
     
    Get WOKE, bigot. Immigrants are doubleplusgood; settlers are doubleplusungood.

    Didn’t that diverse writer named I.B. Woke publish a book all about that?

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  99. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    The difference between a settler and an immigrant is that the settlers certainly took possession of the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing, whereas some immigrants may not have that ambition.

    The difference between a settler and an immigrant is that the settlers certainly took possession of the land by genocide and ethnic cleansing, whereas some immigrants may not have that ambition.

    Which ones?

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  100. @Wilkey
    Yeah, it's not as if changing the date of Thanksgiving from the last Thursday to the 4th Thursday makes a huge difference in when it falls. If Thanksgiving is observed on the last Thursday in November then it will be anywhere from November 24-30. If it's the fourth Thursday in November then it falls anywhere from...November 22-28. Huge frickin' difference.

    So a holiday we were already observing is timed to slightly improve the retail calendar? Whatever. If we can game it a little for the economic good is that a bad thing? Hell, no one seems to give a crap that FedGov moved all those minor holidays to Mondays - including the one honoring the most important figure in our country's history, so that it now never even falls on his actual birthday and no one even realizes the legal holiday only honors him. Why? So that the handful of people who actually get the day off - mostly government employees - can have three day weekends.

    I have a vague memory of it being the third Thursday when I was a kid, and at some point changing to the fourth. Is this just my hazy memory, or was there such a phase?

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  101. @Brutusale
    Which was always one of the big upsides of a Catholic education: All Saints' Day was a Holy Day of Obligation and as such was a day off from school!

    While our Protestant and Jewish friends were slaving away in class, my brother and I were watching cartoons and conducting long, heated negotiations to establish the year's true trade values for Reese's Pieces and Peanut M&Ms! With a short time-out to go to Mass.

    Yeah, but then you have to go to the cemetery on All Souls’, which is somewhere between depressing and downright scary.

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  102. @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    The Pilgrims were LGBTQ weren’t they?
     
    No, that would have been the gender fluid indigenous peoples. They were ruled by the matriarchy, and they had more Pokemon diversity points than anyone can imagine. It was at least twelve or thirteen per person. And life was Edenic in those days. They rode around on unicorns and subsisted on the Skittles that the unicorns routinely discharged from their nether parts. Plus, they had better sex than even the sex that women had under communist regimes.

    If was paradise.

    this chick is not ugly, not good looking – just plain.

    I remember when show biz was for good-looking people. Who pleased their audiences. Sigh.
    Anyone remember those girls from “Petticoat Junction”? Or “Charlie’s Angels”?

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  103. Ivy says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, thank you for the information. And in a land so bountiful the Indians still would not share with other tribes and killed, kidnapped, raped and tortured long before the Pilgrims arrived.

    Our aboriginals did have some notion of compromise with other tribes, observed in the name that they gave for a New England river: You fish on your side, we fish on our side, nobody fishes in the middle. Now they look at who fishes in their casino.

    More recent arrivals say: The fishing franchise is mine, now let me hire anyone from anywhere to work it, and subsidize me.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Ivy, So true, thank you.
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  104. Ivy says:
    @syonredux

    No, no it’s not.
     
    Dunno. The dietary laws act as a pretty effective barrier, particularly in the pre-modern period.....At the very least, it made eating lunch at a goy's house a bit dicey....

    You can observe dicey meals at any Seder or break-fast, depending on who selects which deli.

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  105. @Trelane
    Here's Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    https://youtu.be/AJkOHavUH_A?t=136

    http://cache04.stormap.sapo.pt/dld/854ec270caae2ed8ec1beb96201ac2cb/5a1781f5/vidstore05/videos/21/ef/18/2071494_iJK6K.mp4

    I refuse to watch on general principle–really I need more “bad goyim!, bad!” lectures from tedious Jews?

    But seriously, if you are butt ugly and can’t dance why are you an “entertainer”? I mean I know why someone gave say Ashley Judd a movie role back in the day–enabling her to now feel entitled to lecture us–she was, pre-wall, pretty darn cute. But this ugly cow?

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  106. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @njguy73
    So Mayim Bialik didn't know until she was 35 (I'm two years older than her) than the point of the Macy's parade was to have Santa announce the start of Christmas shopping season.

    Did she never see Miracle on 34th Street?

    Whooping Crane Cough Dept: My first thought was, “So John Mayer was nailing THIS kosherbeast??”

    Then I looked it up, no, he was doing Minka Kelly. Minka just sounded Jewish to me. Sorry.

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  107. @Ivy
    Our aboriginals did have some notion of compromise with other tribes, observed in the name that they gave for a New England river: You fish on your side, we fish on our side, nobody fishes in the middle. Now they look at who fishes in their casino.

    More recent arrivals say: The fishing franchise is mine, now let me hire anyone from anywhere to work it, and subsidize me.

    Ivy, So true, thank you.

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  108. Mr. Anon says:
    @Trelane
    Here's Mayim Bialik of The Big Bang Theory take on Thanksgiving: (Debbie Downer?)

    https://youtu.be/AJkOHavUH_A?t=136

    http://cache04.stormap.sapo.pt/dld/854ec270caae2ed8ec1beb96201ac2cb/5a1781f5/vidstore05/videos/21/ef/18/2071494_iJK6K.mp4

    Celebrating a holiday that commemorates historical crimes and injustices certainly is deplorable. For example, if people were to celebrate a holiday that commemorates, among other things, the despoilation of an entire country, and the death of all that country’s first born children – even babies – that would be pretty awful. I’m sure Mayim Bialik would agree.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Not if the mortalities were Deus Ex Machina, as opposed to a Pharaoh deliberately ordering babies to be put to death. Or a Herod.
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  109. @Mr. Anon
    Celebrating a holiday that commemorates historical crimes and injustices certainly is deplorable. For example, if people were to celebrate a holiday that commemorates, among other things, the despoilation of an entire country, and the death of all that country's first born children - even babies - that would be pretty awful. I'm sure Mayim Bialik would agree.

    Not if the mortalities were Deus Ex Machina, as opposed to a Pharaoh deliberately ordering babies to be put to death. Or a Herod.

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  110. MBlanc46 says:

    Unfortunately, the immigrants are settling.

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  111. CCZ says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    Hey CCZ, do you have some relatives or friends that go to the Unitarian church, or do you live near one? The former is the position I'm in, and that's why I've replied to a couple of your posts on that. I won't keep putting in my same link, but I described how these people are putting themselves out of business (but unfortunately playing a part in dragging the rest of us down with them).

    Once in a while they have a good yard sale though, and I scored a nice couch for $30.

    I appreciate your asking.

    I had relatives married in a UU Church many years ago and for a few recent years attended a local UU Church, mostly because they had good adult discussion groups on topics like humanism and morals without formal religion and science and religion, like going to graduate school for free. But a few years ago, when they went all “anti-white supremacy,” “race conscious education,” TC Coates worshiping (and they do worship at his alter), and Black Lives Matter, I suggested that they consider some alternative perspectives. After being ignored and told that I was “offensive” for suggesting “character not color” is primary, that young black male violence should be part of the “conversation,” and also that culture and class, not exclusively race, is largely responsible for the current level of inequality and disadvantage, I left.

    Interestingly, as some here have noted about women and SJW politics, the change from ethical or “spiritual” discussions to “racial consciousness” all came after the church replaced the retiring minister with a young lesbian, same-sex married minister and women became the majority of the governing body and almost all of the committee leaders. The church also went all World War Trans, supporting boys as girls as natural and biology as a “social construct,” while calling climate change skeptics “science deniers.”

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