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Reforming Stuyvesant HS Admissions: Should Blacks & Whites Team Up Against Asian Grinds?
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From the NYT op-ed page:

The Truth About New York City’s Elite High Schools
By DAMON HEWITT MARCH 22, 2017

This month, a select group of eighth graders in New York City found out that they were being offered a spot at some of the nation’s best high schools, the eight “specialized” city public high schools that include Stuyvesant High School, Brooklyn Tech and Bronx Science. About 28,000 students took the multiple-choice test required for admission, and 5,078 did well enough to secure a place.

This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity. Even though black and Latino students make up nearly 70 percent of public high school students in the city, they routinely represent only 10 percent of those offered admission to the specialized high schools. This year the city offered admission to only 524 black and Latino students.

The numbers are even lower at some of the most desired schools, such as Stuyvesant, which has space for nearly 1,000 freshmen and offered admission to only 13 black students. And while some of the specialized schools do have a high percentage of Asian-American students, many low-income students from lesser-represented ethnic communities are also left out.

I don’t know what that last sentence means.

In case, you are wondering, here is the latest data:

So, at Stuyvesant (the famous STEM public high school), 598 Asians were accepted, 204 whites, 67 unknowns, 28 Latinos, 13 blacks, 10 multiracials, and 6 Native Americans.

Back to the NYT oped:

The problem, which has grown worse in recent years, has to do with the way students are selected for these schools. The sole criterion is a student’s score on the multiple-choice admissions test.

The traditional hallmarks of a great student — consistently excellent grades, critical analysis skills, leadership and even performance on other state-mandated tests — are all irrelevant under the admissions policy. The test has many quirks that experts have said make it inappropriate for use as a sole criterion for admission.

Which is why Stuyvesant has collapsed in reputation in the 40+ years it has had an exam-only admission system and that’s why nobody writes op-eds complaining about how their race doesn’t get in enough.

Wait, that has happened, right?

For example, the material on the test is not taught in the city’s middle school classrooms; so it’s not as if students are being assessed on what they have learned in school over the years. It’s all about what they learn in test prep programs.

Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community that they should support his demand for a fuzzier, more “holistic” admission system so that their white children will have a better chance of getting admitted to Stuyvesant instead of all these products of the Asian test prep juggernaut.

After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

Similarly, Harvard-Westlake, the top academic high school in Los Angeles, was discriminating against high-scoring Asian applicants way back in 1981. That year I had lunch with one of my old high school teachers, a scholar with a Harvard U. doctorate, who had moved on to teach at Harvard-Westlake. And he said Harvard-Westlake didn’t take the high test scores of Asian applicants all that seriously because they didn’t contribute as much to classroom discussions.

Amusingly, when the hit TV show “Mad Men” wrapped up a few years ago, its creator Matthew Weiner gave a series of interviews on the Meaning of It All, much of which seemed to do, in his mind, with the anti-Semitism he had suffered in 1981 as one of the few (in his mind) Jews at Harvard-Westlake. After all these years, Weiner was still angry that a local newspaper in 1981 had mentioned that Jews made up 40% of the student body at Harvard-Westlake. Weiner was convinced that this 40% figure was an anti-Semitic hoax to cover up the rampant anti-Semitism at Harvard-Westlake.

Since then, I’ve wondered if in 1981 I’d pressed my old teacher for more details about admissions and class participation at Harvard-Westlake, perhaps he would have expanded on the topic something like this:

“For example, one of my white students at Harvard prep is Little Matty Weiner. He’s touchy, paranoid, perhaps mad, but what he has to say in class is really interesting. You’ll hear a lot in the future from that little mad man!”

So perhaps Hewitt is trying to signal to New York’s white people to join him in his lawsuit to make Stuyvesant admissions more subjective and arbitrary so their kids would have a better chance. Why pay $175,000 to send your kid to private high school for four years when he could go to Stuyvesant for free … if he could only get in?

But does our society have any vocabulary for blacks like Hewitt to signal to white New York Times readers that they should team up against Asians? Will any white person reading this notice?

Back to the NYT op-ed

This is pure arbitrariness.

Or not arbitrary enough.

The flawed admissions policy, and the discriminatory results it yields, are the subject of a pending civil rights complaint my former colleagues at the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund and I filed with the United States Department of Education on behalf of a coalition of organizations representing black, Latino and Asian students.

Asian students?

Why not white students? White students only get 35% as many acceptances into Stuyvesant as Asian students. Surely that would be prima facie evidence of disparate impact?

But Hewitt seems to lack any framework for making the notion of a black-white alliance against Asian grinds noticeable by all but his most discerning readers.

I see more and more evidence that the Current Year’s prime directive is understood not to be pro-black, but to be anti-white, even if being anti-white objectively works out to be anti-black in effect. Immigration policy is only the most obvious example.

Why is this happening in the largest and most diverse school district in the country? Part of this phenomenon has to do with a powerful narrative that has been woven — not about the test, but about the merit of black and Latino students.

So it’s all Charles Murray’s fault. If only Murray had been punched in the head more, this narrative wouldn’t have reduced black and Latino students’ test scores via Stereotype Threat.

 
    []
  1. Thomas says:

    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another “white bread” food).

    “Jordan Peele explains ‘Get Out’s’ creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate,” http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.

    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.

    I’ve been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as “the original white privilege” with this meme kicking around.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    The War on Dairy (World War Cheese) will not be very successful, I don't think.

    I drink milk all the time and I also drink chocolate milk. Does this give me some post-racial cred?
    , @Jack D
    Too bad that there's no way to remove lactose from milk. If only someone would invent an enzyme or something that breaks down lactose or filters it from the milk so that lactose intolerant people could still drink it, then milk would not be such a hated symbol of blondism.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    This is about on the same level as thinking that albinos can cure disease if cut up and consumed. Black people: making America more like Africa since the 17th century...
    , @Ivy
    Jumped the cow as the new jumped the shark?
    , @bored identity
    Fake News or NYT editorial ?



    Slander Properly Low Center just issued their latest What The Fatwa ? denouncing major chocolate milk producer for a cultural insensitivity and appropriation of body of Brown Rabbit wearing a large scarlet blue "N" on a collar-like necklace.

    The shire existence of Qiucky in the year of 2017 is deeply disturbing.

    Quik Brown Bunny (a.k.a. Quicky) undermines normal academic development of young African Americans by unwittingly perpetuating all kind of worst racial stereotypes of this vulnerable community.

    Quicky's emblematic message to preadolescent African Americans has a devastating effect on their self-esteem; Quicky depicts them as of being not only some of kind happy-go-lucky,extremely well athletically suited, and uppity-hippity-hoppity, running escalators, long-eared piccanninies , but also implying inherited inability to focus and being quite easy to distract in comparison to the rest of their peers.

    Young Africans Americans should know that their brown bodies are not agile,but fragile.

    It's time for Nestle to retire Quicky The Brown Rabbit, and introduce Smuggy The Black Bear:

    http://russcook.blogspot.com/2014/03/neil-degrasse-tyson.html

     

    , @in the middle
    The US in general is so race obsessed that you cannot get out of it for nothing. All is race based, and it is a drag to everyone. Before the 1970s, Mexicans were counted as 'white', or as I once heard, 'dark white'. After those years, you are labeled with so much, Latino, Latinex, Asian, African American, Euro American, (better known as whites), etc. Not longer are you German American, French American, Russian American, etc. So the real Americans please raise your hand! I wish I was just a normal day to day American, without the hyphenated extra.
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  2. “People Like Us” by Talking Heads has been recognized by experts as the best country and western song ever written.

    Damon Hewitt March is a Black person who wants to increase the number of Black students allowed into selectively prestigious public schools in New York City. I wonder if Hewitt is related to Don Hewitt. Does Don Hewitt have any relatives who work in the admissions office of Harvard University?

    Sadiq Kahn is a sonofabitch!

    Read More
  3. Someone explain to me how “leadership is important to math, because isolation seems to be the default position of mathmeticians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pat Casey
    Lol.

    I read Derbyshire's Prime Obsession last month. When he got to the best argument for why the Riemann equation can't be proved, I finally understood the zeta function and could conceptualize Riemann's wager well enough verbally to sufficiently intuit why that argument about why it's not true is arguing the truth. And that felt Great, because I've always felt like mathematicians were the smartest frauds this side of Freud--- engineers are the real deal. Basically, the Zeta function allows you to count up and count down at the same time, and that's bullshit, if for example you've deeply read Scotus Erigena. (Tell me why I'm wrong someone who summons imaginary numbers to solve imaginary propositions.)

    Folks who are familiar with special looney bins know that there are savants who can sit two to a pair and bounce prime numbers off each other sequentially back and forth ad infinitum. That's because the real magic is always social, and big discoveries tend to happen roughly two at a time. History is myth; truth is perspectival; we live in stories that structure our reality; no one can ever truly say who did what to whom re motive. Someone called that James Joyce's deepest insight. And it turns out to turn on a mind formed by the earth of a language that has been called the most mystical known to man, in so many words, by several men at least as smart as Steve.

    Make blacks with average White IQs memorize ten logical fallacies per year for four years and I bet most of them would "win" against any Asian in a courtroom all else being equal.

  4. mp says:

    A) Who are the “experts” the media always quotes whenever blacks and Hispanics fail tests?

    B) One of the reasons that Tiger Moms make their kids practice the test so much is they don’t want their daughter going to school with a lot of blacks and Hispanics, for obvious reasons (although they might not say so openly-but they might).

    C) Is it possible for any Jew to give an interview without mentioning anti-Semitism or the H-word?

    D) In any “disparate impact” lawsuit brought on behalf of minorities, look at the last names of the lawyers filing the suit. Then refer to C.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymousetoo
    A. All are University graduates.

    B. Obviously.

    C. No.

    D. If you fail to find the connection, don't give up. It's there. You just have to keep turning over rocks.
  5. The man has a point. The school district is 70% “Hispanic”–btw why isn’t it “Herpanic”?–or black. Seems like the good students among them should have a good shot at a decent school experience and not be dragged down by the garbage that happens to share the same race\ethnicity\neighborhood.

    Obviously the real solution is vouchers. But that isn’t happening anytime soon.

    What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You’re competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites–even the smarties–don’t really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience–a plum assignment for all kids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    "What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You’re competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites–even the smarties–don’t really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience–a plum assignment for all kids."

    If you've reached that point, and I can't really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I'm talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.
    , @Anonymous
    By writing

    Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High.
     
    you made an assumption that Jews would not protest, why they are not considered as white, and thus why they are antisemitically discriminated against by forbidding them to be admitted to the supposedly "Best White High".
    , @Truth



    What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High
     
    Extremely reasonable, Dad. But probably only in a land where butterscotch-flavored gumdrops fall from the sky.
  6. This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity

    But isn’t the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "But isn’t the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?"

    Generally yes, but I think character should matter. Some people with ability are jerks. If possible, why not weed them out? Of course, this is easier said than done. Or, maybe some schools should be based solely on test scores and others could be based on a broader range of criteria, as has traditionally been the case with top American universities (before affirmative action, diversity and multiculturalism went into overdrive). I'd be interested in seeing which would do better, assuming that the one with the broader range didn't use it as an excuse for affirmative action, but instead used it to include strengths (such as various character traits) not measured by standardized tests.

    , @guest
    That's the type of sentence one produces when one's brain has been twisted by the sort of dishonesty our society requires of us daily. It reads to you and me like, "He tried to throw the ball across the room, but in fact he merely succeeded in throwing the ball across the room." Huh?

    You won't be "huh?"-ing once you master equality doublethink.

    , @Jason Liu
    You'd think the point of meritocracy is to intentionally create an unequal hierarchy, hence displaying the merit of each party involved

    But things are upside down in the west
    , @Alec Leamas
    Yes and no. University and College admissions are supposed to be choosing candidates with the highest aptitude to engage in the life of the mind. Usually grades will tell you something about that, as would standardized test scores that reliably measure intelligence.

    The problem with the Asian model in the U.S. is that drilling mathematics for 4 hours every night and gaming the standardized tests to an extreme degree doesn't really reveal much about the applicant's aptitude - they're more finished products at that point. The end is the learning, not the score - Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.

    There's also the issue of whether and to what degree non-Asians want to engage in a an arms race in which their children would be made into unidimensional, grade attaining automatons for a chance at an elite education. Most American parents want their talented kids to have experiences and sincere interests outside of hours of after school academic drilling - they want their smart kid to be the just OK shortstop on a mediocre high school baseball team, have a robust social life, or volunteer at Church for its own sake rather than resume building. There are life skills useful in academic and professional pursuits that can't be scored for analysis by an admissions officer.

    This is clearly a clash of cultures, where the insurgent Asians are gaming the system and forcing unwanted changes on the host culture, and a resultant backlash.
    , @Lex Corvus
    It's Blank Slate Über Alles.
  7. Sunbeam says:
    @AnotherDad
    The man has a point. The school district is 70% "Hispanic"--btw why isn't it "Herpanic"?--or black. Seems like the good students among them should have a good shot at a decent school experience and not be dragged down by the garbage that happens to share the same race\ethnicity\neighborhood.

    Obviously the real solution is vouchers. But that isn't happening anytime soon.

    What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You're competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites--even the smarties--don't really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience--a plum assignment for all kids.

    “What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You’re competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites–even the smarties–don’t really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience–a plum assignment for all kids.”

    If you’ve reached that point, and I can’t really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I’m talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    Separate countries for separate peoples seems to be the rule around most of the world.
    , @Anonym
    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    Ok. So the process goes like this:

    1. Immigration into white countries, because we make better societies that everyone wants to immigrate to.
    2. Races self-segregate, white people again cluster and put a lot of effort into making things good in their areas for their progeny.
    3. These areas become countries.
    3. Go to 1.

    Eventually we end up packed like sardines into the least desirable areas in our countries, all because our traitor politicians made some laws our people would never have agreed to if consulted?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx2bHvlwkvM

    Our countries are worth fighting for.
    , @AnotherDad

    If you’ve reached that point, and I can’t really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I’m talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.
     
    Exactly. That's the essential logic of it.

    When there was an assumption that America was Anglo-Protestant America, and all immigrants had to assimilate to it, and blacks should be attempting to live by Anglo norms, then there was something of a nation, even if there were various groups that were not fully integrated parts of it.

    Once the official ideology changed to minoritarianism, then there is no real nation, just a random conglomeration of people under the authority of the same state power. And in fact no we're in a situation where the destruction of the nation--as having a culture, traditions and being a people--is openly celebrated, and people who even bring up the nation's former existence as desirable are mocked, insulted and shouted down. (See Steve King.)
    , @CAL
    That used to be the normal understanding in this country which is why there were immigration restrictions against Asian countries.

    The problem with the grinds (interestingly Heinlein uses the term in Starship Troopers) is they distort the system. It's like HS sports now where to make any team you almost have to play it year-round. It results in people who are good at one thing but stunted in general. That's not good for a society.

    Michigan State has an Honors College scholarship test with a few free rides on the line. The test though is top secret and seems to be whimsical with how it picks what you need to know. It's not junk material, but it seems random with what it expects. When my daughter took it, none of the winners were Asian. I saw quite a few kids who seemed to just give up after about 30 minutes. So maybe the goal should be secrecy and randomness, kind of like life.
  8. SPMoore8 says:

    This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity.

    He’s talking about the Regents Exam, which is meant to separate the wheat from the chaff from all of the students who get straight A’s.

    Okay, so ditch the Regents Exam and replace it with a lottery; allocated by ethno-racial percentages. The Asians will probably not like it — we already know they are the majority of students in these high schools, we covered that last week — but let them fight it out with the other minorities.

    The rest of his recommendations are pointlessly vague.

    The last sentence,
    And while some of the specialized schools do have a high percentage of Asian-American students, many low-income students from lesser-represented ethnic communities are also left out.

    means: “True, the system is not loaded against Asian minorities, but it is loaded against Latino and African American minorities.” I mean, he’s speaking in code suggesting it’s Whitey, but really, it isn’t.

    Read More
  9. Jason Liu says:

    So what’s discriminatory about any of this?

    This the part when some asshole comes out and claims the left isn’t about equal outcomes, just equal opportunities, except all unequal outcomes are caused by unequal opportunities and nothing else.

    Holistic review has always been code for “egalitarian bullshit”. It should be rejected regardless of the school’s racial makeup.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    It offends the precepts of feelocratic equalism. Having suffered from, and having had family suffer from affirmative action, I find this vaguely amusing and hope they go through with it. I think it'll push more Asians to the right.

    In fact, I believe that the most diverse measure will be a system which scores based on melatonin instead of examinations. So the darker you are, the higher you rank for diversity, and the more eligible you are to institutions of higher learning. Women would get affirmative action for melatonin scales, in recognition of their honorary oppressed status.

    Only then, can we truly be certain that the most representative Americans serve as our top leaders: mutilated black transsexual men identifying as women.
    , @Hibernian
    Holistic review also would be a lot of real work for the public school bureaucracy who are not to be confused with the staff at Harvard.
  10. SPMoore8 says:
    @Thomas
    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another "white bread" food).

    "Jordan Peele explains 'Get Out's' creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate," http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.
    ...
    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.
     
    I've been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as "the original white privilege" with this meme kicking around.

    The War on Dairy (World War Cheese) will not be very successful, I don’t think.

    I drink milk all the time and I also drink chocolate milk. Does this give me some post-racial cred?

    Read More
    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    No, of course not. That would be cultural appropriation. "Can't anybody here play this game?"
  11. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren’t interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don’t Asians understand this? Also, why don’t Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.
     
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as "have so many extracurricular programs", "get this test score" and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    In a culture where hard work is particularly prized, and in even the Western culture where hard work is supposedly recognized as the path to success, it obviously rankles.
    , @Jack D
    Do they truly "want" this, or is it what they really want is "not too many Asians" (and in the past, "not to many Jews") and "an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities" is just purposely unquantifiable BS to disguise what they really want? We all know that what SJWs want and what they SAY that they want are two different things. Aren't elite colleges supposed to be about learning and excellence? How does having an interesting personality make you a better scientist or engineer? Some of the best scientists have the personality of a wet rag.
    , @Jason Liu
    Holistic review is a way for other races to push their self-centered racial interests.

    The purpose of top academia is not to create "well-rounded" students, it's to separate wheat from chaff and convert the nation's spergiest nerds into intellectual assets for the state. I would be fine with a pure meritocratic system based on rigorous testing, even if it meant fewer Asians.

    , @Marina
    The impression I get is that the purpose of the Ivies is to try and pick the next generation's elite while maintaining certain kinds of large university amenities. This is different from the most talented, intelligent, high scoring or even well-rounded mix of interesting American young people. This is why they ask where your parents went to college and where they work, even though this should be irrelevant.

    At my prep school, probably half the HYP admissions were for students who met the needs of the school at that specific time. I knew someone who got into Harvard because she played the right position in the right team sport and their current player in that position was graduating. She had good but not spectacular grades, but basically, she got lucky. If she'd been six months younger and a grade lower in school and otherwise identical, she never would have gotten in. I know someone who got into an Ivy because the music program needed a certain instrumentalist and he had good grades and was excellent at that instrument. Again, bright and talented and he probably had no problem doing well in the coursework, but he was far from the brightest, most interesting or well rounded kid that year.

    Then there will always be a sport for the Obama/Clinton/Bush/Trump children and there will probably always be slots for the children of foreign (including Asian) leaders and royals. Same thing for the kids of business and some entertainment elites. Whites from outside the coasts and especially outside cities will be very underrepresented. Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren't elite. Deng Xiaopeng's kid is going to get into Harvard over the brightest, most interesting, well rounded Asian American who is a three sport varsity athlete and academic superstar, but then Chelsea Clinton would get in over the white version of this kid too.

    Then there are a few slots for the genuine geniuses: the 17 year old who is obviously a national superstar in field X or whatever. Then there are the AA admits. The legacies or rich kids that got a thumb on the scale. At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.
    , @Ed
    I think this is a cultural more as opposed to than innate feature of Asians and it varies by Asian group. My observation of my business school classmates were that Indians were quite loquacious, the Japanese were very quiet. The Chinese were quiet but spoke up when they felt compelled. Asian Americans were really no different in terms of participation from other students.

    My guess is that since these elite NYC public schools are drawing from a more humbler class of Asians they are more focused on passing. When I lived in NYC I would sometime share a train with Bx Science students and they were quite talkative.

    , @Anony
    Are you under the impression that Asians decided on and are in control of the entrance criteria to Stuyvesant, or anywhere else for that matter?
    , @Marty T
    Asians do complain a lot in this country. They have it pretty damn good, but mere overrepresentation in the Ivies isn't enough. They should have Caltech-level dominance, according to Ron Unz's analysis (which should embarrass his fellow Harvard grads for being so shoddy).

    As far as NYC goes, Stuyvesant will have to get a LOT less Asian before white rich people consider it for their kids.
    , @NOTA
    This is the cover story, but my guess is that it amounts to a reimagining of the Jewish Quota for Asians.
    , @Gene Su

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren’t interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores.
     
    John Taylor Gatto once interviewed a recruiter for an Ivy League college. He said that the Ivy League pays only scant attention to grades and test scores. They put top importance on extracurricular activities. In general...

    1. Ivy League colleges are looking for a person with 3 types of activities - a physical activity, a mental activity, and a social activity.
    2. The recruiters prefer individual hobbies over group activities.
    3. The recruiters prefer if the individual were to undertake the activity on his/her own without the prodding and supervision of parents and teachers. In other words, they shy away from organized activities and more towards "hobbies".
    4. The recruiters prefer activities that involved personal risk. The example they gave was that they were now interested in a lot of "X-treme" acrobatic athletes who did daredevil stunts. Other examples were rock climbers, rodeo dare devils, and kids who sailed boats into the middle of the ocean.

    I noticed that blacks, even if they did horribly in math class, tend to get along well with people and were skilled in certain "street trades" and politics. Maybe colleges want black students for reasons besides affirmative action...
  12. guest says:

    I fully expected Mad Men to go Triumph of the Semites at some point. You know, show those phony-baloney “white shoe” ad-men with skeletons in their closets that, naturally, Jews know best how to do everything. And they’re not hypocrites!

    When Sterling-Cooper-Draper-Whatever was inevitably subsumed, it was by a gruffer, less polished, blunter outfit, but not by Jews. They were presented as being Black Irish, as I recall. The one prominent Jewish ad-man character went nuts. The hippies took care of the manners, and the Machine Age took care of the rest. Don Draper got his revenge by co-opting hippydom, however.

    Matthew Weiner didn’t make his point very well, is what I’m saying. Unless it was in code.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Interviewer David Samuels is a genius at getting his subjects to let their guard down.
  13. So perhaps Hewitt is trying to signal to New York’s white people to join him in his lawsuit to make Stuyvesant admissions more subjective and arbitrary so their kids would have a better chance. Why pay $175,000 to send your kid to private high school for four years when he could go to Stuyvesant for free … if he could only get in?

    You think the whites who pay $175,000 to send their kids to private high schools want to team up with the whites who merely have smart kids? C’mon Steve keep your eye on the ball. The actual enemy are the smart whites who don’t have $175k for high school. The Asians are just grinds and the blacks and Hispanics are non-factors. Ideally the Asians turn Sty, Science and Tech into culturally Asian schools where whites have no place – which it looks like has happened over the last few decades.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You think the whites who pay $175,000 to send their kids to private high schools want to team up with the whites who merely have smart kids? C’mon Steve keep your eye on the ball. The actual enemy are the smart whites who don’t have $175k for high school. The Asians are just grinds and the blacks and Hispanics are non-factors. Ideally the Asians turn Sty, Science and Tech into culturally Asian schools where whites have no place – which it looks like has happened over the last few decades.

    I never really realized this until just recently, when I think someone else pointed it out. When I was in college, the "poorest" students on campus generally often seemed to be the middle class students (or at the lower end of upper middle class) whose parents were scrimping and saving to send their kids to a top private university. We had little money for extras beyond tuition, room and board, and had jobs while in school. As expected, the more affluent students had money for many different types of extras and didn't have to have jobs, but the poor students (including many affirmative action ones) also seemed to live some kind of life of leisure at college - no need for a job during the school year, money somehow to stay on campus and take summer courses and for semesters abroad, etc. Obviously, this is an overstatement, and there were poor students with financial struggles. However, it did strike me as odd that the (white) middle class students often seemed to be those who in one way or another were among the most disadvantaged.
  14. Jack D says:

    Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community that they should support his demand for a fuzzier, more “holistic” admission system so that their white children will have a better chance of getting admitted to Stuyvesant instead of all these products of the Asian test prep juggernaut.

    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    If you read Jerome Karebel’s The Chosen:

    https://www.amazon.com/Chosen-History-Admission-Exclusion-Princeton/dp/061877355X

    he says that the “holistic” college admission system that we have was invented SOLELY for this purpose (except back in the ’20s the “problem” was too many Jews, not too many Asians).

    Before the ’20s, getting into Ivy League schools was exactly like getting into Stuyvesant today (and exactly like the admission system in many homogeneous societies like Japan still are) – each school had a difficult admissions test and the applicants would be scored and rank ordered and admitted from the list from the top down until the class was full. No evaluation of “leadership”, no essays, no weight given to sports or legacy, no application “readers”. Quite a bit of effort was spent on the test (in those pre-SAT days) but admissions was a simple clerical task once the test results were in.

    But Harvard was starting to “tip” Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire “holistic” system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn’t just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard – it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.

    I don’t think BTW that this is a dog whistle to wealthy whites – as far as they are concerned, they have no interest in sending their sons and daughters to compete against Asian grinds in public schools nowadays – making Stuyvesant 1/2 Asian instead of 2/3 Asian would be too little, too late. $40k/ yr. is what they spend on wine or ski trips – not even a rounding error on their Goldman-Sachs bonus.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    And for $40,000 per year (from kindergarten, BTW), the schools (Dalton, Collegiate, Trinity, Chapin, etc.) curate your child's diversity with token black, Hispanic, and other exotic ethnics attending on financial aid so as not to be accused of discrimination, racism, or any other ism. White privilege includes diversity and inclusion.
    , @Johann Ricke

    I don’t think BTW that this is a dog whistle to wealthy whites – as far as they are concerned, they have no interest in sending their sons and daughters to compete
     
    There's also the matter of mean reversion. Children don't necessarily get the best characteristics of mom and dad. And parents like to do what they can to shelter their kids from the realities of a dog-eat-dog world. What's the point of having bags of money if you can't give your children a leg up against smarter and hungrier competitors?
    , @AnotherDad

    But Harvard was starting to “tip” Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire “holistic” system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn’t just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard – it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.
     
    The "Ivy League Jewish Quotas" topic is one a little window into the Jewish mentality and the disaster that's befallen the West. And one of the striking things is how Jews--even ones who seem nominally smart--seem almost incapable of any conception of anyone else's view of the world.

    The essentially essence of that mentality:
    "What is ours is ours. What is yours is ours"
    Deviation from that => anti-Semitism.

    I see no legal, ethnical or moral issue with the Anglo-Protestants who founded these Ivy League--private!--universities wanting to keep them Anglo-Protestant in orientation, student body or "sensibility". If they wanted to stay *all* Anglo-Protestant, that would be peachy. They built 'em, they own 'em. Certainly my Catholic ancestors--ok not *my* ancestors who moved to Iowa and got to work, but others--felt a bit at odds with the Anglo aristocracy ... and so built their own damn universities. But for Jews it's another little nugget they can obsess over.

    Jews have spent the last couple thousand years defining their community and loyalty genetically rather than geographically, *refusing* any integration with the locals, and in fact concocting specific religious strictures against fraternization with outsiders. But some Protestants want to--sort of--do their own thing--in fact, not even exclude Jews (unlike Jews they have a larger more geographic concept of loyalty) but simply maintain the character of and control over their own institutions--and it's some sort of crime against humanity?

    Furthermore, Jews are always blathering on about themselves, patting themselves on their back about their superior--argumentative and talky--culture. But of course if it is notable or superior, than it also by definition must be "different". So why wouldn't Protestants think ... "hey we don't really want our college to be 50% Jewish as the place will have a decidedly different character"? I'm sure no Jewish university would want to become say 50% evangelical much less 50% muslim. Pretty obvious stuff.

    ~~~

    This isn't something I obsess over, so a quick search last night to see "what up". This from the Jewish side, so if anything spun to their favor:
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/harvard-s-jewish-problem
    This great anti-Semitism was a Harvard president suggesting a generous Jewish quota of 15%. (I.e. limited Jews to merely a large over-representation rather than a massive one.) And apparently they didn't even implement such a quota. Rather they actually opened up geographically and pulled kids from all over--making Harvard more representative, "look more like America"--that's the "Jewish quota", that's a great anti-Semitic crime.

    And now that the Jews are in control ... they have clearly slapped a--pretty solid--quota on Asians, who are simply doing the same thing the Jews did a century back--tearing up the admissions test. Asian populations ramp up, their domination of the scores ramps up even faster, but somehow their Ivy populations just sort of sit there ... just a notch or two above that egregiously repressive 15%. But of course, that quota is not the crime of "anti-Asianism" it's ... uh ... "character" and "diversity". And, of course, unlike the old school Protestants, the Jews don't talk honestly about what they are doing, much less their motives.

    Hey, I get it. I have no desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Asians either. (I could see that the heavy Asian presence at my kids' school--UW--actually made the college experience worse. The Chinese-Chinese students in particular don't just take up space, they degrade the public-community space for others.) But then I don't have a desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Jews either. Though my best friends (from grad school) are Asian-Indians, I find white-gentile dominated environments to be the most pleasant, friendly and fun. I'm a white gentile so no surprise. (Though truth be told, we white gentiles just objectively build better more open, more pleasant communities and nations. It's what we do.) Blacks or Jews or Asians or Hispanics might find other environments more congenial--which is fine. But Jews'--discrimination ok for me, but not for thee thing--is just a boatload of crap.
  15. @guest
    I fully expected Mad Men to go Triumph of the Semites at some point. You know, show those phony-baloney "white shoe" ad-men with skeletons in their closets that, naturally, Jews know best how to do everything. And they're not hypocrites!

    When Sterling-Cooper-Draper-Whatever was inevitably subsumed, it was by a gruffer, less polished, blunter outfit, but not by Jews. They were presented as being Black Irish, as I recall. The one prominent Jewish ad-man character went nuts. The hippies took care of the manners, and the Machine Age took care of the rest. Don Draper got his revenge by co-opting hippydom, however.

    Matthew Weiner didn't make his point very well, is what I'm saying. Unless it was in code.

    Interviewer David Samuels is a genius at getting his subjects to let their guard down.

    Read More
  16. @Jason Liu
    So what's discriminatory about any of this?

    This the part when some asshole comes out and claims the left isn't about equal outcomes, just equal opportunities, except all unequal outcomes are caused by unequal opportunities and nothing else.

    Holistic review has always been code for "egalitarian bullshit". It should be rejected regardless of the school's racial makeup.

    It offends the precepts of feelocratic equalism. Having suffered from, and having had family suffer from affirmative action, I find this vaguely amusing and hope they go through with it. I think it’ll push more Asians to the right.

    In fact, I believe that the most diverse measure will be a system which scores based on melatonin instead of examinations. So the darker you are, the higher you rank for diversity, and the more eligible you are to institutions of higher learning. Women would get affirmative action for melatonin scales, in recognition of their honorary oppressed status.

    Only then, can we truly be certain that the most representative Americans serve as our top leaders: mutilated black transsexual men identifying as women.

    Read More
  17. rob says:

    From the article:
    And while some of the specialized schools do have a high percentage of Asian-American students, many low-income students from lesser-represented ethnic communities are also left out.

    I think what he means is that while there are tons of Asians, there are many Asian ethnicities (Hmong, Thai, Laotian, various Pacific Islanders) that are under-represented.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gene Su

    I think what he means is that while there are tons of Asians, there are many Asian ethnicities (Hmong, Thai, Laotian, various Pacific Islanders) that are under-represented.
     
    I would like to know the nationality of the Negro students attending New York's elite schools. I have a feeling that many of them are West Indian or African emigrants, as opposed to the native born. Does anyone have the statistics on that?
  18. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh

    This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity
     
    But isn't the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?

    “But isn’t the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?”

    Generally yes, but I think character should matter. Some people with ability are jerks. If possible, why not weed them out? Of course, this is easier said than done. Or, maybe some schools should be based solely on test scores and others could be based on a broader range of criteria, as has traditionally been the case with top American universities (before affirmative action, diversity and multiculturalism went into overdrive). I’d be interested in seeing which would do better, assuming that the one with the broader range didn’t use it as an excuse for affirmative action, but instead used it to include strengths (such as various character traits) not measured by standardized tests.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Traditionally, a lot of top universities basically admitted on what would these days be called nepotism.

    And that would be fine by me and I think, most others as well - the issue is simply its frustrating as heck for them to announce one thing, and then do another. Its fine to have whatever game you want, but at least make the rules transparent enough so that the players can choose to participate or not.

    The entire subjective nonsense fails the smell test; it ends up being transparent that its just cover for affirmative action and comes off looking exceptionally hypocritical that they can't even own up to what they're doing.

    , @Pericles

    Generally yes, but I think character should matter. Some people with ability are jerks. If possible, why not weed them out?

     

    Well, that would be anti-semitic.
  19. guest says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity
     
    But isn't the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?

    That’s the type of sentence one produces when one’s brain has been twisted by the sort of dishonesty our society requires of us daily. It reads to you and me like, “He tried to throw the ball across the room, but in fact he merely succeeded in throwing the ball across the room.” Huh?

    You won’t be “huh?”-ing once you master equality doublethink.

    Read More
  20. Jack D says:
    @Thomas
    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another "white bread" food).

    "Jordan Peele explains 'Get Out's' creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate," http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.
    ...
    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.
     
    I've been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as "the original white privilege" with this meme kicking around.

    Too bad that there’s no way to remove lactose from milk. If only someone would invent an enzyme or something that breaks down lactose or filters it from the milk so that lactose intolerant people could still drink it, then milk would not be such a hated symbol of blondism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    Lactaid?

    I agree the milk thing is a little silly, but they've got to have something.
    , @Muse
    Jim Harbaugh, coach of the Michigan Wolverines football team is a huge fan of Fairlife Milk, which has the lactose filtered out of it.

    The marketing arm is headquartered in Chicago and the farms are located half-way between Chicago and West Lafayette Indiana. You can buy it all over the Midwest.

    It it is the milk of choice for white cisgendered patriots. No doubt Tom Brady, Bobby Knight and da coach (Ditka) are pounding the stuff too. Fairlife Milk = MAGA Milk Fairlife.com

  21. @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as “have so many extracurricular programs”, “get this test score” and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    In a culture where hard work is particularly prized, and in even the Western culture where hard work is supposedly recognized as the path to success, it obviously rankles.

    Read More
    • Agree: iffen
    • Disagree: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Here's a rule both easy to understand and consistently apply:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.

    , @Anonymous
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as “have so many extracurricular programs”, “get this test score” and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    Welcome to reality. There are no rules - only general guidelines. Many people are disappointed by the college admissions process and find it to be unfair - not just Asians. That's just the way it is. If you're expecting a system of exact rules, you need to look outside the United Stares. Hard work is prized, but it is not a guarantee of anything. Again, this is where I think Asians are naive.
    , @SteveM

    "This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as “have so many extracurricular programs”, “get this test score” and the like."
     
    The larger issue is a how contrived the entire American admissions process is across the board. Engaging in specific extracurricular activities just to get a ticket punched is ridiculous. A kid forced to take piano lessons that he hates for 5 years to get admitted to high school points to a system that rewards neurotic parents and says little about the kid. Too bad for the kids caught up in that.

    Parenthetically, I was talking about doctors with an ER nurse at a major urban teaching hospital. She told me that a good number of the doctors she works with are socially retarded and a few are even sociopathic. Many don't have the empathy we generally equate with physicians. I.e., they got in for the bucks and the prestige.

    I rhetorically asked about the med school admissions process as a filtering mechanism. "What about the volunteer work? The essays? The interviews?" We concluded, Fake, Fake, Fake. As pre-meds many doctors were smart enough but also ruthless enough and conniving enough to fake the empathy when volunteering, gin up the Albert Schweitzer in service to mankind wanna-be in the essays, and memorize a script that pushes all the right buttons for the interview.

    In other words, many med-school applicants are Stuyvesant applicants only in another milieu further downstream. And their inflated applications actually imply nothing about their character, only that they could scheme to get the requisite tickets punched.

    They should use a min threshold of a test score as first pass into those hyper-competitive schools and then use a weighted lottery based on the test score like the NBA draft to select a class. I.e. the higher the score the higher the probability of being randomly selected. And forget about the other stuff entirely because so much of it is gamed.

    , @ScarletNumber
    If you could stop sperging, you could see that if an organization mindlessly heeds a certain set of rules, people will start gaming the system.
    , @Bill
    So, if we made a rule "No more than 10% Asian at Harvard," you'd be OK with that?
  22. Jason Liu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity
     
    But isn't the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?

    You’d think the point of meritocracy is to intentionally create an unequal hierarchy, hence displaying the merit of each party involved

    But things are upside down in the west

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    From the point of view of rational humanism I am totally on your side and Mr. Chieh's with regard to merit in higher education, as well as Jack D's 100 year old argument about the same thing.

    However. Don't you see that group inequalities doesn't work very well? As it pertains to higher education, what do you think would follow if College X was, say, 70% East Asian or 70% Jewish or what have you (based strictly on merit, I grant you.) The first thing that would happen is that parents would stop encouraging their children to go to such a school, if they were neither East Asian nor Jewish. If you don' t believe me, what do you think white parents do when their public schools go 50% black or 60% black (or Latino) or whatever: they send their kids to private schools.

    So eventually you will have a situation where "nobody goes there anymore because it's too crowded" and Harvard and Princeton become the butt of crude ethnic jokes, and non-Asians or non-Jews will make some other school the source of their sense of prestige.

    What does this mean? It means that America will only work as country if everyone assimilates, and ultimately everyone intermarries, so that one's race, or heritage, or noble lineage, or inheritance does not count. The fact that our African minority is assimilating at a glacial base is evidence of our failure. (Not that there's any easy solution, I grant.)

    That's why we can't have groups fighting over whatever, and we can't have this or that group dominating every thing. That's a recipe for alienation and social conflict. If one is annoyed at the attempts by less powerful minorities (e.g., blacks, Latinos) attempting to leverage the system to get representation as a group, one cannot have at the same time some small indentifiable groups running everything at the top. It's just not healthy, and it works to create what is in effect a caste system.

    Remember when iSteve wrote about how democracy will not work in Iraq because family intermarriage worked against it? Group identification works exactly the same way. Sometimes if I wonder if we would be better off if all group identifications were prohibited.
  23. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    Do they truly “want” this, or is it what they really want is “not too many Asians” (and in the past, “not to many Jews”) and “an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities” is just purposely unquantifiable BS to disguise what they really want? We all know that what SJWs want and what they SAY that they want are two different things. Aren’t elite colleges supposed to be about learning and excellence? How does having an interesting personality make you a better scientist or engineer? Some of the best scientists have the personality of a wet rag.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What's wrong with not wanting too many Asians? All over the U.S., our institutions by their policies of diversity and commitment to multiculturalism do not want too many white people.
  24. Superman says:

    And while some of the specialized schools do have a high percentage of Asian-American students, many low-income students from lesser-represented ethnic communities are also left out.

    He’s probably referring to Asian ethnicities that underperform, like Pacific Islanders.

    Read More
  25. @Anonymous
    "But isn’t the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?"

    Generally yes, but I think character should matter. Some people with ability are jerks. If possible, why not weed them out? Of course, this is easier said than done. Or, maybe some schools should be based solely on test scores and others could be based on a broader range of criteria, as has traditionally been the case with top American universities (before affirmative action, diversity and multiculturalism went into overdrive). I'd be interested in seeing which would do better, assuming that the one with the broader range didn't use it as an excuse for affirmative action, but instead used it to include strengths (such as various character traits) not measured by standardized tests.

    Traditionally, a lot of top universities basically admitted on what would these days be called nepotism.

    And that would be fine by me and I think, most others as well – the issue is simply its frustrating as heck for them to announce one thing, and then do another. Its fine to have whatever game you want, but at least make the rules transparent enough so that the players can choose to participate or not.

    The entire subjective nonsense fails the smell test; it ends up being transparent that its just cover for affirmative action and comes off looking exceptionally hypocritical that they can’t even own up to what they’re doing.

    Read More
  26. Forbes says:
    @Sunbeam
    "What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You’re competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites–even the smarties–don’t really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience–a plum assignment for all kids."

    If you've reached that point, and I can't really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I'm talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    Separate countries for separate peoples seems to be the rule around most of the world.

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    • Replies: @europeasant
    Itz almost as if the people pushing for more multiculturalism want this country to fail.
    A multicultural nation will not survive. There need to be too many rules and too many police.
    We are witnessing the slow breakup of this nation. There's a reason that the old history book "The Bible" was written especially the story about the tower of babel. Our governments cannot change human nature.
  27. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @AnotherDad
    The man has a point. The school district is 70% "Hispanic"--btw why isn't it "Herpanic"?--or black. Seems like the good students among them should have a good shot at a decent school experience and not be dragged down by the garbage that happens to share the same race\ethnicity\neighborhood.

    Obviously the real solution is vouchers. But that isn't happening anytime soon.

    What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You're competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites--even the smarties--don't really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience--a plum assignment for all kids.

    By writing

    Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High.

    you made an assumption that Jews would not protest, why they are not considered as white, and thus why they are antisemitically discriminated against by forbidding them to be admitted to the supposedly “Best White High”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    ... you made an assumption that Jews would not protest, why they are not considered as white, and thus why they are antisemitically discriminated against by forbidding them to be admitted to the supposedly “Best White High”.
     
    Some American Jews are on the white bus. They aren't wrapped up in their ethnicity any more than the next guy, consider themselves white and see their interests pretty much the same as white gentiles.

    Some American Jews are actively involved in the "flight from white", trying to jockey for position in the coalition of the oppressed. (The laughable claims of "anti-Semitism!" associated with the Trump campaign an example.)

    And there's a fair number of American Jews that play it both ways. Whatever is convenient depending on the situation. If it's high school or college admissions, then they are white--no different from some guy from the hollers of West Virginia, and any suggestion that they are taking up too much of the white quota and should have their own quota ... anti-Semitism! But if it's denouncing the oppressive white man ... they are distinctly Jewish, not really white, but a fellow outsider, a fellow victim who deserves a good slice of diversity spoils.

    I like making people choose a side. Coalition of the oppressed? Great--then that's your place over there. We're forming our group over here.
  28. Jason Liu says:
    @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    Holistic review is a way for other races to push their self-centered racial interests.

    The purpose of top academia is not to create “well-rounded” students, it’s to separate wheat from chaff and convert the nation’s spergiest nerds into intellectual assets for the state. I would be fine with a pure meritocratic system based on rigorous testing, even if it meant fewer Asians.

    Read More
  29. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Johnson

    So perhaps Hewitt is trying to signal to New York’s white people to join him in his lawsuit to make Stuyvesant admissions more subjective and arbitrary so their kids would have a better chance. Why pay $175,000 to send your kid to private high school for four years when he could go to Stuyvesant for free … if he could only get in?
     
    You think the whites who pay $175,000 to send their kids to private high schools want to team up with the whites who merely have smart kids? C'mon Steve keep your eye on the ball. The actual enemy are the smart whites who don't have $175k for high school. The Asians are just grinds and the blacks and Hispanics are non-factors. Ideally the Asians turn Sty, Science and Tech into culturally Asian schools where whites have no place - which it looks like has happened over the last few decades.

    You think the whites who pay $175,000 to send their kids to private high schools want to team up with the whites who merely have smart kids? C’mon Steve keep your eye on the ball. The actual enemy are the smart whites who don’t have $175k for high school. The Asians are just grinds and the blacks and Hispanics are non-factors. Ideally the Asians turn Sty, Science and Tech into culturally Asian schools where whites have no place – which it looks like has happened over the last few decades.

    I never really realized this until just recently, when I think someone else pointed it out. When I was in college, the “poorest” students on campus generally often seemed to be the middle class students (or at the lower end of upper middle class) whose parents were scrimping and saving to send their kids to a top private university. We had little money for extras beyond tuition, room and board, and had jobs while in school. As expected, the more affluent students had money for many different types of extras and didn’t have to have jobs, but the poor students (including many affirmative action ones) also seemed to live some kind of life of leisure at college – no need for a job during the school year, money somehow to stay on campus and take summer courses and for semesters abroad, etc. Obviously, this is an overstatement, and there were poor students with financial struggles. However, it did strike me as odd that the (white) middle class students often seemed to be those who in one way or another were among the most disadvantaged.

    Read More
  30. Marina says:
    @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    The impression I get is that the purpose of the Ivies is to try and pick the next generation’s elite while maintaining certain kinds of large university amenities. This is different from the most talented, intelligent, high scoring or even well-rounded mix of interesting American young people. This is why they ask where your parents went to college and where they work, even though this should be irrelevant.

    At my prep school, probably half the HYP admissions were for students who met the needs of the school at that specific time. I knew someone who got into Harvard because she played the right position in the right team sport and their current player in that position was graduating. She had good but not spectacular grades, but basically, she got lucky. If she’d been six months younger and a grade lower in school and otherwise identical, she never would have gotten in. I know someone who got into an Ivy because the music program needed a certain instrumentalist and he had good grades and was excellent at that instrument. Again, bright and talented and he probably had no problem doing well in the coursework, but he was far from the brightest, most interesting or well rounded kid that year.

    Then there will always be a sport for the Obama/Clinton/Bush/Trump children and there will probably always be slots for the children of foreign (including Asian) leaders and royals. Same thing for the kids of business and some entertainment elites. Whites from outside the coasts and especially outside cities will be very underrepresented. Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren’t elite. Deng Xiaopeng’s kid is going to get into Harvard over the brightest, most interesting, well rounded Asian American who is a three sport varsity athlete and academic superstar, but then Chelsea Clinton would get in over the white version of this kid too.

    Then there are a few slots for the genuine geniuses: the 17 year old who is obviously a national superstar in field X or whatever. Then there are the AA admits. The legacies or rich kids that got a thumb on the scale. At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Esteemed Marina: by writing

    Then there are the AA admits,
     
    did you mean Anonymous Alcoholics ? There is such a breadth of meanings of AA !
    , @sabril

    At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.
     
    I agree, I think the main backstop is that elite colleges don't want to slide into a situation where another CCNY emerges, i.e. some public school sets up a selective program; welcomes smart middle class white kids; and starts churning out high achievers to the point where it gets a lot of attention and undermines the reputations of the elite colleges.
    , @Hibernian
    "Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren’t elite."

    For which read: Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they mean you are a potential leader of a future redneck rebellion. (Ironically, my left wing doctor cousin as a young kid was in 4-H in an inner ring suburb of Chicago; it was a leftover from when this suburb was a semi-rural exurb.
  31. @Daniel Chieh

    Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.
     
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as "have so many extracurricular programs", "get this test score" and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    In a culture where hard work is particularly prized, and in even the Western culture where hard work is supposedly recognized as the path to success, it obviously rankles.

    Here’s a rule both easy to understand and consistently apply:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.

    Read More
    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Have your college systems state that, then.

    Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.
     
    I respect your nativism, but not when it spills into what is basically hatred, especially in such a counterproductive way. By and large, we are not your enemy here.
    , @Federalist
    Amen. I was going to make a similar point until I saw your comment. I realized that I couldn't state it any better.
  32. @Autochthon
    Here's a rule both easy to understand and consistently apply:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.

    Have your college systems state that, then.

    Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.

    I respect your nativism, but not when it spills into what is basically hatred, especially in such a counterproductive way. By and large, we are not your enemy here.

    Read More
    • Agree: keuril
    • Replies: @Paul Yarbles
    There is a backlash forming against the Chinese grind culture.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/26/nyregion/reforms-to-ease-students-stress-divide-a-new-jersey-school-district.html?_r=0

    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.
    , @FKA Max

    By and large, we are not your enemy here.
     
    According to Samuel P. Huntington -- who, by the way attended Stuyvesant HS -- you are, at least as a civilization. I like you personally/individually, and I appreciate your contributions/comments here at the Unz Review, but first and foremost we need to take care of our own (civilization):

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg


    But, I think, qualitatively, Chinese immigrants are far more dangerous and can do a lot more damage and harm to the U.S., e.g., industrial and military espionage, takeover of higher education institutions, etc., than African Americans or Hispanics could ever do, because of their higher IQs.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    This was actually my original point, that corrupt and sociopathic/psychopathic high(er)-IQ individuals/races can do a lot more damage than low(er)-IQ ones, in terms of financial damage caused by their crimes, etc., and many so-called “race realists” and IQists completely ignore this dynamic, or even welcome it, which really makes them Social Darwinists, in my opinion.
    [...]
    I think Social Darwinsts are dangerous.

    I personally believe Chinese immigration to the U.S. is a greater threat to America than Mexican immigration for example, precisely because of their high IQs and the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their gene pool, which is associated with psychopathy/anti-social behavior: http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1725649

    I still do not want the Hispanic and Black populations in the U.S. to grow, because it is not good for the traditionally Northern European/Protestant culture and innovativeness of the country. This is why I support Planned Parenthood, want immigration to stop, and oppose amnesty, birthright citizenship and the Catholic Church [ http://www.population-security.org/ ], etc.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1731013

    You’re just more comfortable with grinding swot work being confused with actual ability. And much more comfortable with open cheating.
    [...]
    I refer to it as the “Social Darwinist” mindset, which is quite common among evolutionary psychologists and IQ-ists
    [...]
    Here we show that ethnocentrism eventually overcomes its closest competitor, humanitarianism, by exploiting humanitarian cooperation across group boundaries as world population saturates. Selfish and traitorous strategies are self-limiting because such agents do not cooperate with agents sharing the same genes. Traitorous strategies fare even worse than selfish ones because traitors are exploited by ethnocentrics across group boundaries in the same manner as humanitarians are, via unreciprocated cooperation.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469
    , @FKA Max
    The link on the Samuel P. Huntington ``Clash of Civilizations'' diagram was broken on my other comment, here some new links, which hopefully work:

    According to Samuel P. Huntington — who, by the way attended Stuyvesant HS — you are, at least as a civilization. I like you personally/individually, and I appreciate your contributions/comments here at the Unz Review, but first and foremost we need to take care of our own (civilization):

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Huntington_Clash_of_Civilizations_chart.gif
    , @Michelle
    Autochthon is mean. I hate him, I hope he dies! Not to mention, our public Universities charge Asian foreign students a fortune to attend. They are not going to kill geese that lay golden, thousand year old eggs.
  33. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Marina
    The impression I get is that the purpose of the Ivies is to try and pick the next generation's elite while maintaining certain kinds of large university amenities. This is different from the most talented, intelligent, high scoring or even well-rounded mix of interesting American young people. This is why they ask where your parents went to college and where they work, even though this should be irrelevant.

    At my prep school, probably half the HYP admissions were for students who met the needs of the school at that specific time. I knew someone who got into Harvard because she played the right position in the right team sport and their current player in that position was graduating. She had good but not spectacular grades, but basically, she got lucky. If she'd been six months younger and a grade lower in school and otherwise identical, she never would have gotten in. I know someone who got into an Ivy because the music program needed a certain instrumentalist and he had good grades and was excellent at that instrument. Again, bright and talented and he probably had no problem doing well in the coursework, but he was far from the brightest, most interesting or well rounded kid that year.

    Then there will always be a sport for the Obama/Clinton/Bush/Trump children and there will probably always be slots for the children of foreign (including Asian) leaders and royals. Same thing for the kids of business and some entertainment elites. Whites from outside the coasts and especially outside cities will be very underrepresented. Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren't elite. Deng Xiaopeng's kid is going to get into Harvard over the brightest, most interesting, well rounded Asian American who is a three sport varsity athlete and academic superstar, but then Chelsea Clinton would get in over the white version of this kid too.

    Then there are a few slots for the genuine geniuses: the 17 year old who is obviously a national superstar in field X or whatever. Then there are the AA admits. The legacies or rich kids that got a thumb on the scale. At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.

    Esteemed Marina: by writing

    Then there are the AA admits,

    did you mean Anonymous Alcoholics ? There is such a breadth of meanings of AA !

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  34. @Thomas
    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another "white bread" food).

    "Jordan Peele explains 'Get Out's' creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate," http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.
    ...
    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.
     
    I've been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as "the original white privilege" with this meme kicking around.

    This is about on the same level as thinking that albinos can cure disease if cut up and consumed. Black people: making America more like Africa since the 17th century…

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  35. Forbes says:
    @Jack D

    Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community that they should support his demand for a fuzzier, more “holistic” admission system so that their white children will have a better chance of getting admitted to Stuyvesant instead of all these products of the Asian test prep juggernaut.

    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.
     

    If you read Jerome Karebel's The Chosen:

    https://www.amazon.com/Chosen-History-Admission-Exclusion-Princeton/dp/061877355X

    he says that the "holistic" college admission system that we have was invented SOLELY for this purpose (except back in the '20s the "problem" was too many Jews, not too many Asians).

    Before the '20s, getting into Ivy League schools was exactly like getting into Stuyvesant today (and exactly like the admission system in many homogeneous societies like Japan still are) - each school had a difficult admissions test and the applicants would be scored and rank ordered and admitted from the list from the top down until the class was full. No evaluation of "leadership", no essays, no weight given to sports or legacy, no application "readers". Quite a bit of effort was spent on the test (in those pre-SAT days) but admissions was a simple clerical task once the test results were in.

    But Harvard was starting to "tip" Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire "holistic" system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn't just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard - it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.

    I don't think BTW that this is a dog whistle to wealthy whites - as far as they are concerned, they have no interest in sending their sons and daughters to compete against Asian grinds in public schools nowadays - making Stuyvesant 1/2 Asian instead of 2/3 Asian would be too little, too late. $40k/ yr. is what they spend on wine or ski trips - not even a rounding error on their Goldman-Sachs bonus.

    And for $40,000 per year (from kindergarten, BTW), the schools (Dalton, Collegiate, Trinity, Chapin, etc.) curate your child’s diversity with token black, Hispanic, and other exotic ethnics attending on financial aid so as not to be accused of discrimination, racism, or any other ism. White privilege includes diversity and inclusion.

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  36. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh

    Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.
     
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as "have so many extracurricular programs", "get this test score" and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    In a culture where hard work is particularly prized, and in even the Western culture where hard work is supposedly recognized as the path to success, it obviously rankles.

    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as “have so many extracurricular programs”, “get this test score” and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    Welcome to reality. There are no rules – only general guidelines. Many people are disappointed by the college admissions process and find it to be unfair – not just Asians. That’s just the way it is. If you’re expecting a system of exact rules, you need to look outside the United Stares. Hard work is prized, but it is not a guarantee of anything. Again, this is where I think Asians are naive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Hard work is prized, but it is not a guarantee of anything. Again, this is where I think Asians are naive.

     

    No, its because we actually believe in that as a virtue.

    As for myself, I don't really have much of a dog in this fight. I honestly think that education is a bubble, as per Peter Thiel; I work with enough college material indirectly now to note that it has become very much an indoctrination camp that I can't exactly being passionate to send my children to. Being forced to write essays about how the blind suffer from an optical normative society and how the word "disability" is offensive and how surrealistic trans-women challenge the objectification of women - to note to actual assignments just recently I've seen - doesn't seem like its all that helpful for a future of anything but SJW elite.

    Anyone who's seen me post before will note that I have nothing against freedom of association or racial quotas if they wish to place them; I will nonetheless snark about hypocrisy as it is relevant.

    My children are half-white. It'll be difficult, I think, to simply consider them foreigners either - though admittedly, the half white part is French-Canadian, so there is that.


    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.
     
    I don't necessarily disagree. Every country has the right to control her own borders, for any reason and promote the welfare of her citizens.
  37. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Do they truly "want" this, or is it what they really want is "not too many Asians" (and in the past, "not to many Jews") and "an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities" is just purposely unquantifiable BS to disguise what they really want? We all know that what SJWs want and what they SAY that they want are two different things. Aren't elite colleges supposed to be about learning and excellence? How does having an interesting personality make you a better scientist or engineer? Some of the best scientists have the personality of a wet rag.

    What’s wrong with not wanting too many Asians? All over the U.S., our institutions by their policies of diversity and commitment to multiculturalism do not want too many white people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.
  38. SPMoore8 says:
    @Jason Liu
    You'd think the point of meritocracy is to intentionally create an unequal hierarchy, hence displaying the merit of each party involved

    But things are upside down in the west

    From the point of view of rational humanism I am totally on your side and Mr. Chieh’s with regard to merit in higher education, as well as Jack D’s 100 year old argument about the same thing.

    However. Don’t you see that group inequalities doesn’t work very well? As it pertains to higher education, what do you think would follow if College X was, say, 70% East Asian or 70% Jewish or what have you (based strictly on merit, I grant you.) The first thing that would happen is that parents would stop encouraging their children to go to such a school, if they were neither East Asian nor Jewish. If you don’ t believe me, what do you think white parents do when their public schools go 50% black or 60% black (or Latino) or whatever: they send their kids to private schools.

    So eventually you will have a situation where “nobody goes there anymore because it’s too crowded” and Harvard and Princeton become the butt of crude ethnic jokes, and non-Asians or non-Jews will make some other school the source of their sense of prestige.

    What does this mean? It means that America will only work as country if everyone assimilates, and ultimately everyone intermarries, so that one’s race, or heritage, or noble lineage, or inheritance does not count. The fact that our African minority is assimilating at a glacial base is evidence of our failure. (Not that there’s any easy solution, I grant.)

    That’s why we can’t have groups fighting over whatever, and we can’t have this or that group dominating every thing. That’s a recipe for alienation and social conflict. If one is annoyed at the attempts by less powerful minorities (e.g., blacks, Latinos) attempting to leverage the system to get representation as a group, one cannot have at the same time some small indentifiable groups running everything at the top. It’s just not healthy, and it works to create what is in effect a caste system.

    Remember when iSteve wrote about how democracy will not work in Iraq because family intermarriage worked against it? Group identification works exactly the same way. Sometimes if I wonder if we would be better off if all group identifications were prohibited.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    This is exactly the argument that Lowell (President of Harvard) made 100 years ago:

    “The summer hotel that is ruined by admitting Jews meets its fate . . . because they drive away the Gentiles, and then after the Gentiles have left, they leave also.”

    See Malcolm Gladwell's review here:

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10/getting-in
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    … we can’t have this or that group dominating every thing.
     
    Sure we can. Whites fully dominated America until recent decades, and it worked fine for whites.

    That’s a recipe for alienation and social conflict.
     
    That’s already here. Alienation and social conflict will be not be ameliorated in a further drift towards pluralism, or some imaginary singularity of homogenization. Humans are tribal. Those who are less tribal will be steamrolled by those who are more tribal.
    , @Rdm
    This is a nice facade.

    On the surface, it looks self-righteous comment. Let's look at the 70% Asian occupied Universities that would have probably driven out so-called Whites.

    1. Stanford
    2. UC Berkeley
    3. UC Los Angeles
    4. UC San Francisco
    5. UC San Diego
    6. UC Barbara

    Those universities consistently rank among the TOP 50-100 World rankings. Those universities also outperform all other public universities combined in the country except Stanford (being private).

    What does that tell you? Once they eliminated race-based admission, Asian population skyrocketed.

    I dare you, ask ANY White Professor, if they want to get hired at those Elite Universities in the west coast or some Podunk universities in mid-west, they will choose west coast in a heartbeat. They know Asian grinds will perform whatever idea they have from top in the lab as a lab rat.

    So it doesn't matter either Whites are driven out. The question is WHO drives out Whites and make those universities Elite?
  39. @Daniel Chieh
    Have your college systems state that, then.

    Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.
     
    I respect your nativism, but not when it spills into what is basically hatred, especially in such a counterproductive way. By and large, we are not your enemy here.

    There is a backlash forming against the Chinese grind culture.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/26/nyregion/reforms-to-ease-students-stress-divide-a-new-jersey-school-district.html?_r=0

    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.

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  40. syonredux says:

    The flawed admissions policy, and the discriminatory results it yields, are the subject of a pending civil rights complaint my former colleagues at the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund and I filed with the United States Department of Education on behalf of a coalition of organizations representing black, Latino and Asian students.

    Asian students?

    Why not white students? White students only get 35% as many acceptances into Stuyvesant as Asian students. Surely that would be prima facie evidence of disparate impact?

    That’s still too many White students, Steve. Black and Hispanic activists won’t be satisfied until the White Anglo percentage is somewhere between zero and one percent.

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  41. @Jack D

    Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community that they should support his demand for a fuzzier, more “holistic” admission system so that their white children will have a better chance of getting admitted to Stuyvesant instead of all these products of the Asian test prep juggernaut.

    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.
     

    If you read Jerome Karebel's The Chosen:

    https://www.amazon.com/Chosen-History-Admission-Exclusion-Princeton/dp/061877355X

    he says that the "holistic" college admission system that we have was invented SOLELY for this purpose (except back in the '20s the "problem" was too many Jews, not too many Asians).

    Before the '20s, getting into Ivy League schools was exactly like getting into Stuyvesant today (and exactly like the admission system in many homogeneous societies like Japan still are) - each school had a difficult admissions test and the applicants would be scored and rank ordered and admitted from the list from the top down until the class was full. No evaluation of "leadership", no essays, no weight given to sports or legacy, no application "readers". Quite a bit of effort was spent on the test (in those pre-SAT days) but admissions was a simple clerical task once the test results were in.

    But Harvard was starting to "tip" Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire "holistic" system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn't just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard - it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.

    I don't think BTW that this is a dog whistle to wealthy whites - as far as they are concerned, they have no interest in sending their sons and daughters to compete against Asian grinds in public schools nowadays - making Stuyvesant 1/2 Asian instead of 2/3 Asian would be too little, too late. $40k/ yr. is what they spend on wine or ski trips - not even a rounding error on their Goldman-Sachs bonus.

    I don’t think BTW that this is a dog whistle to wealthy whites – as far as they are concerned, they have no interest in sending their sons and daughters to compete

    There’s also the matter of mean reversion. Children don’t necessarily get the best characteristics of mom and dad. And parents like to do what they can to shelter their kids from the realities of a dog-eat-dog world. What’s the point of having bags of money if you can’t give your children a leg up against smarter and hungrier competitors?

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  42. Veracitor says:

    “For example, the material on the test is not taught in the city’s middle school classrooms; . . .

    Yep. The middle-school curriculum is too easy to reveal ability differences among students in the top 15% of ability, so

    so it’s not as if students are being assessed on what they have learned in school over the years.”

    Because that would be pointless, at least 15% of the students would get perfect 100% marks on the standard K-8 curriculum.

    So it is necessary to test on things not taught in middle school to find the top applicants for specialized high schools.

    Or hold a lottery, which is what some folks want, but which won’t solve the problem because there aren’t enough preferred minorities even in the top 15% of middle-school students.

    (I use 15% symbolically, the exact percentage may be somewhat different.)

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  43. FKA Max says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Have your college systems state that, then.

    Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.
     
    I respect your nativism, but not when it spills into what is basically hatred, especially in such a counterproductive way. By and large, we are not your enemy here.

    By and large, we are not your enemy here.

    According to Samuel P. Huntington — who, by the way attended Stuyvesant HS — you are, at least as a civilization. I like you personally/individually, and I appreciate your contributions/comments here at the Unz Review, but first and foremost we need to take care of our own (civilization):

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg

    But, I think, qualitatively, Chinese immigrants are far more dangerous and can do a lot more damage and harm to the U.S., e.g., industrial and military espionage, takeover of higher education institutions, etc., than African Americans or Hispanics could ever do, because of their higher IQs.

    http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    This was actually my original point, that corrupt and sociopathic/psychopathic high(er)-IQ individuals/races can do a lot more damage than low(er)-IQ ones, in terms of financial damage caused by their crimes, etc., and many so-called “race realists” and IQists completely ignore this dynamic, or even welcome it, which really makes them Social Darwinists, in my opinion.
    [...]
    I think Social Darwinsts are dangerous.

    I personally believe Chinese immigration to the U.S. is a greater threat to America than Mexican immigration for example, precisely because of their high IQs and the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their gene pool, which is associated with psychopathy/anti-social behavior: http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1725649

    I still do not want the Hispanic and Black populations in the U.S. to grow, because it is not good for the traditionally Northern European/Protestant culture and innovativeness of the country. This is why I support Planned Parenthood, want immigration to stop, and oppose amnesty, birthright citizenship and the Catholic Church [ http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1731013

    You’re just more comfortable with grinding swot work being confused with actual ability. And much more comfortable with open cheating.
    [...]
    I refer to it as the “Social Darwinist” mindset, which is quite common among evolutionary psychologists and IQ-ists
    [...]
    Here we show that ethnocentrism eventually overcomes its closest competitor, humanitarianism, by exploiting humanitarian cooperation across group boundaries as world population saturates. Selfish and traitorous strategies are self-limiting because such agents do not cooperate with agents sharing the same genes. Traitorous strategies fare even worse than selfish ones because traitors are exploited by ethnocentrics across group boundaries in the same manner as humanitarians are, via unreciprocated cooperation.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    OT:
    I believe I discovered the cause for my original comment being `` weirdly mangled'' and ``disfigured'' by the commenting software: Namely my use of square brackets [] in combination with (possibly an URL and) the blockquote coding command.
    Here, without the square brackets, how the transition between the two quotes should have properly/actually looked like. Excerpt:


    [...] and the Catholic Church http://www.population-security.org/ , etc.
     
    – http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1731013

    You’re just more comfortable with grinding swot work being confused with actual ability. And much more comfortable with open cheating. [...]
     
    – http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469
     
    -----------

    I think what makes cheating on the SAT, etc. so attractive, is that the reward/payout is potentially huge, and the risk (and punishment) is still relatively low.

    “With so many Chinese students wanting to study in the U.S., it’s natural that these fraudulent practices are spreading here, where security is comparatively low.”
    Last spring, Zou, her boyfriend, and 13 other current and former U.S. college students from China were arrested and last month pleaded guilty in Pittsburgh for their part in the scheme. Most will be deported.
    [...]
    “Middle-class and wealthy Chinese parents are putting enormous pressure on their children to gain admission to prestigious U.S. colleges,” she said. “Add to that, there is a cultural disconnect—many Chinese families don’t realize how seriously Americans take these kind of infractions.”
     
    - https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/

    This is what is important to understand -- which many (White/Northern European) people in my experience still fail to realize -- and what distinguishes lower IQ (Africans, etc.) from higher IQ (mostly East Asians and Jews) high-frequency low-activity MAOA carrier populations/groups: Higher IQ low-activity MAOA carriers can much better gauge and ``calculate'' risk than lower IQ low-activity MAOA carriers can, and therefore engage in very different types of crimes, and they do so often undetected and much more successfully than their fellow lower IQ low-activity MAOA carriers.

    successful psychopaths – corporate climbers involved in irregular crime who tend to have had more privileged background with little risk of legal penalties.
    unsuccessful psychopaths – involved in regular crime who tend to have had less privileged backgrounds and much higher risk of legal penalties.
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace#General


    This is why I shared the paper about white-collar crime in Asia and in Japan above, which is a field not very well researched and understood, yet.

    High(er)-IQ Asians are smart enough to know, that it is not worth taking the risk of committing a white-collar crime if the payout is small. Blacks usually don’t think in terms of a risk-reward ratio when they commit crimes, in my experience.

    Also, even if some Blacks had access to the higher levels and positions of power within the financial and business sector in America, they would just not have high enough IQs to pull off big-scale ponzi schemes and cons à la Bernie Madoff, in my opinion.

    One needs opportunity AND ability (a high(er) IQ) to commit and pull off these high value white-collar crimes.

    Blacks’ lower average IQ prevents them from committing high value/high category types of white-collar crimes, in my opinion.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1731013
  44. Ed says:
    @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    I think this is a cultural more as opposed to than innate feature of Asians and it varies by Asian group. My observation of my business school classmates were that Indians were quite loquacious, the Japanese were very quiet. The Chinese were quiet but spoke up when they felt compelled. Asian Americans were really no different in terms of participation from other students.

    My guess is that since these elite NYC public schools are drawing from a more humbler class of Asians they are more focused on passing. When I lived in NYC I would sometime share a train with Bx Science students and they were quite talkative.

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  45. Daniel H says:

    >>Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community that they should support his demand for a fuzzier, more “holistic” admission system so that their white children will have a better chance of getting admitted to Stuyvesant instead of all these products of the Asian test prep juggernaut.<<

    The New York State LAW, not policy, that mandated that Stuyvesant and the other schools' admission procedures be reduced to a SAT like IQ test in disguise was passed in 1971 at the behest of a constituency. Follow the trail, what constituency had the most power in New York in 1971? The same constituency has lots of power today but they never dreamed how hard east Asians could work to game the system. I say let the damn schools go all Asian. I got no dog in this fight. And I sure do hope that the Trump justice department takes action against the Ivy league for anti-Asian discrimination. That will be so much fun to watch.

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  46. Gene Su says:

    Anyone who thinks that Charles Murray a rank, nasty little racist is either an idiot or inattentive. Coming Apart is about the white underclass. He is more frightened that whites will sink to the level of blacks. He has seen it in Britain.

    It seems that if anyone writes a book pointing out the problems of the black underclass, they are immediately called a racist even if their work portrays blacks in a sympathetic light. Daniel Moynihan was called a racist but he wrote that the disintegration of the black family was due to centuries of racism (a common liberal nostrum). I bet that if Thomas Sowell was a white Southerner and wrote Black Rednecks and White Liberals in the sixties, he would have been branded a racist.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    The British underclass was always an underclass, that's why they call it...The British Underclass.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Sowell gets called a racist anyway. He doesn't have the correct opinions, so he is not a real black. Just like Clarence Thomas.
    , @carol
    Murray also thinks the white underclass is so useless that we may as well put them on a guaranteed minimum income. He may be correct but putting them on the dole will surely make it so.
  47. @Anonymous
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as “have so many extracurricular programs”, “get this test score” and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    Welcome to reality. There are no rules - only general guidelines. Many people are disappointed by the college admissions process and find it to be unfair - not just Asians. That's just the way it is. If you're expecting a system of exact rules, you need to look outside the United Stares. Hard work is prized, but it is not a guarantee of anything. Again, this is where I think Asians are naive.

    Hard work is prized, but it is not a guarantee of anything. Again, this is where I think Asians are naive.

    No, its because we actually believe in that as a virtue.

    As for myself, I don’t really have much of a dog in this fight. I honestly think that education is a bubble, as per Peter Thiel; I work with enough college material indirectly now to note that it has become very much an indoctrination camp that I can’t exactly being passionate to send my children to. Being forced to write essays about how the blind suffer from an optical normative society and how the word “disability” is offensive and how surrealistic trans-women challenge the objectification of women – to note to actual assignments just recently I’ve seen – doesn’t seem like its all that helpful for a future of anything but SJW elite.

    Anyone who’s seen me post before will note that I have nothing against freedom of association or racial quotas if they wish to place them; I will nonetheless snark about hypocrisy as it is relevant.

    My children are half-white. It’ll be difficult, I think, to simply consider them foreigners either – though admittedly, the half white part is French-Canadian, so there is that.

    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.

    I don’t necessarily disagree. Every country has the right to control her own borders, for any reason and promote the welfare of her citizens.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "No, its because we actually believe in that as a virtue."

    It is a virtue. Is anyone here saying it's not a virtue? My point is that success in the U.S. is not based solely on hard work and ability. My parents were true believers in the value of hard work, and instilled that belief into me and my siblings. Most people who are hard workers will be well-served by it. However, it is no guarantee of the type of success you might think it should produce.

    I agree that education is a bubble.

  48. @Anonymous
    What's wrong with not wanting too many Asians? All over the U.S., our institutions by their policies of diversity and commitment to multiculturalism do not want too many white people.

    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Daniel, I know. I apologize, I'm afraid I'm sounding anti-Asian, even though I'm not.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.
     
    Maybe not you personally, but some of you are. How many Asians in America are Democrat voters or ‘Asian Conservatives’ ? Probably too many for whites who like living in a white country.
  49. KevinB says:

    “This phenomenon has to do with a powerful narrative that has been woven”

    Is there any other way to interpret that statement besides “White man has powerful voodoo.”

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  50. SteveM says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.
     
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as "have so many extracurricular programs", "get this test score" and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    In a culture where hard work is particularly prized, and in even the Western culture where hard work is supposedly recognized as the path to success, it obviously rankles.

    “This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as “have so many extracurricular programs”, “get this test score” and the like.”

    The larger issue is a how contrived the entire American admissions process is across the board. Engaging in specific extracurricular activities just to get a ticket punched is ridiculous. A kid forced to take piano lessons that he hates for 5 years to get admitted to high school points to a system that rewards neurotic parents and says little about the kid. Too bad for the kids caught up in that.

    Parenthetically, I was talking about doctors with an ER nurse at a major urban teaching hospital. She told me that a good number of the doctors she works with are socially retarded and a few are even sociopathic. Many don’t have the empathy we generally equate with physicians. I.e., they got in for the bucks and the prestige.

    I rhetorically asked about the med school admissions process as a filtering mechanism. “What about the volunteer work? The essays? The interviews?” We concluded, Fake, Fake, Fake. As pre-meds many doctors were smart enough but also ruthless enough and conniving enough to fake the empathy when volunteering, gin up the Albert Schweitzer in service to mankind wanna-be in the essays, and memorize a script that pushes all the right buttons for the interview.

    In other words, many med-school applicants are Stuyvesant applicants only in another milieu further downstream. And their inflated applications actually imply nothing about their character, only that they could scheme to get the requisite tickets punched.

    They should use a min threshold of a test score as first pass into those hyper-competitive schools and then use a weighted lottery based on the test score like the NBA draft to select a class. I.e. the higher the score the higher the probability of being randomly selected. And forget about the other stuff entirely because so much of it is gamed.

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    We have a few generations of doctors, dentists and nurses in the extended family including a recent MD. They all went into medicine to help people and genuinely practice that. They also would tell you that there are too many doctors that spent too much time studying and in labs when they could have picked up some more socializing, but at least they are more lively and less depressed than dentists.

    The nurses say that too many nurses smoke too much and end up with aching feet exacerbated by later career weight gains. They have kind hearts. Medicine became an endurance contest over the past few decades and took some of the joy away. It takes work to retain the commitment.

  51. Truth says:

    Twinkie, you screwed a white kid out of his spot 40 years ago. Tsk..tsk.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Twinkie, you screwed a white kid out of his spot 40 years ago. Tsk..tsk.
     
    No, you, dimwit, I "screwed... out of his spot" a bright Jewish student who would have gone on to Harvard law school and become another humanitarian, pro-American mergers-and-acquisitions lawyer or management consultant in NYC with a profound reverence for the sacred emblems of our country and a deep respect for the ordinary - Christian - people in "flyover" country. So much so that he'd have lovingly told the latter how to live better and more correctly by funding that patriotic party, the Democrats to take over all institutions of power and influence in the society at large.

    Yeah, it was a tragedy and a great robbery.

    Instead, America got a race-traitor yellow man, who went around the world committing war crimes and murdering innocent Muslim peace activists, all the while giving aid and comfort to the anti-Semitic, black-hating KKK racists (aka "the Republican party" and the so-called conservatives), who even now is raising a brood of racist, homophobic children with toxic, evil ideology such as American sovereignty and Christianity.

    I should just commit Seppuku, but my life-hating medievalist death cult called the Catholic Church told me that was a bad idea, because it needs me to stay alive and screw America some more with my toxic ideology.
  52. George says:

    To a large extent, old people are fighting battles from the late 1900s when blacks actually lived near Stuyvesant.

    I graduated from Stuyvesant, it was during the financial crisis, so it basically sucked. On the other hand, I did not get mugged or assaulted inside the building not once. A teacher tried to break up a fight between 2 Chinese gangsters, yes they and their girlfriends can pass the test too, and was killed. Chinese gangsters did not much bother with non Chinese when I was there, Chinese are so racist, so I was never mugged or assaulted by one.

    Does Stuy high deserve its reputation? How many billionaires went there? Much of the New York Public schools’ academic reputation was formed by Jewish graduates in the early and mid 1900s, Feynman, Bobby Fischer, Barbara Streisand ect. Maybe it is just me but can you name a few post 1990 famous NYC public school grads that won a nobel prize, started a major corporation or something? It is probably true that a large number of Stuy high grads do end up in medical dental school, but they likely would end up there in any event. The city is much safer now and taking classes in college is more common, so Stuy High may be obsolete.

    The demographics of the potential student body is defined by being within about 1hr from the front door of the school. Most of the areas reachable within 1hr of the school, Chinatown for example, have non black and non Hispanic demographics. You might actually get more qualified Blacks if you allowed students from NJ, as far along the PATH train as very black Newark, to apply, but that is not how educrats or activists think.

    There are many other specialized HSs in NYC. Famous autodidact Pharma Bro Marin Shkreli went to a very informal program, and after starting various important pharma companies at a very young age donated a few million to that program. I am not hearing of major donations to Stuyvesant.

    I don’t want to shoot down Stuyvesant too much. But it is basically like a really good suburban school with a legacy of success of mostly, but not all, Jewish immigrants and their children from the early to mid 1900s.

    Last Nobel, 2004, was born in 1963. The list is impressive, but not overwhelming.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stuyvesant_High_School_people

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    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    Lin-Manuel Miranda (Hamilton writer/star) graduated from Hunter College High School. Probably not a future billionaire or Nobel laureate, but he's relatively famous and highly successful. If, as I imagine, he owns a piece of his production, he should be in decent financial shape for someone in the theatre business.

    My understanding is that Hunter takes most of its kids from kindergarten onward, and then admits those 6th graders who score in the top tenth of 1% on a standardized test (don't know if this is the same test 8th graders take for Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, et al.) for entry into 7th grade.
    , @Daniel H
    >>The demographics of the potential student body is defined by being within about 1hr from the front door of the school. Most of the areas reachable within 1hr of the school,

    I know a Chinese girl who commuted from central Staten Island to Bronx Science - way up in Bedford Park. Commute must have been at least 2 hours each way.

    My brother commuted from Long Island to a very selective New York city school on scholarship. Easily 2 hour commute each way. Still, I would have preferred his experience to my shitty Long Island high school experience.
    , @Spotted Toad
    Yeah, this was pretty much my impression as an NYC teacher a few years before you were a student: Stuy was fine for certain kids, but wildly overrated.

    FWIW, I ran the numbers for correlation of race and outcomes in the other 400 NYC high schools the other day and Stuyvesant and the other tested schools aren't at all atypical:

    https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/diversity-lags/
    , @Truth
    Brooklyn Tech Grads

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGfDRlEDs34

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-In13bZbAQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBjif02ZLmI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t2muOVFkBA

    Not nobel winners but did fairly weell, I attended with three of them, all three kept trying to be my buddy, persistent little buggers.
  53. Yan Shen says:

    Uh oh, if the whites and the blacks and the Hispanics all team up against the Asians in this country, might that not lead to a World on Fire?

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  54. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh
    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.

    Daniel, I know. I apologize, I’m afraid I’m sounding anti-Asian, even though I’m not.

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  55. Tired of these articles about blacks not being able to test into high performing schools. Article says while blacks and minorities make up 70% of students, they are only 10% of those admitted to these test-in schools. Let me fix this for Mr. Hewitt March, 90% of NYC minorities are not smart enough for these schools. Also Mr. Hewitt March, please note that NYC had to invalidate another teachers certification exam, because not enough blacks passed. Mr. Hewitt March, please be proud of your accomplishments and stop calling attention to the failure rate of other blacks, otherwise we will wonder how you got to where you are. PS. Please put a hyphen in your name, it is the way to go.

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  56. SFG says:
    @Jack D
    Too bad that there's no way to remove lactose from milk. If only someone would invent an enzyme or something that breaks down lactose or filters it from the milk so that lactose intolerant people could still drink it, then milk would not be such a hated symbol of blondism.

    Lactaid?

    I agree the milk thing is a little silly, but they’ve got to have something.

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  57. FKA Max says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Have your college systems state that, then.

    Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.
     
    I respect your nativism, but not when it spills into what is basically hatred, especially in such a counterproductive way. By and large, we are not your enemy here.

    The link on the Samuel P. Huntington “Clash of Civilizations” diagram was broken on my other comment, here some new links, which hopefully work:

    According to Samuel P. Huntington — who, by the way attended Stuyvesant HS — you are, at least as a civilization. I like you personally/individually, and I appreciate your contributions/comments here at the Unz Review, but first and foremost we need to take care of our own (civilization):

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  58. @Autochthon
    Here's a rule both easy to understand and consistently apply:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.

    Amen. I was going to make a similar point until I saw your comment. I realized that I couldn’t state it any better.

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  59. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    “This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity. ”

    No shi*, moron. Meritocracy is NOT about equity. It’s about separating the best from the rest. If anyone should know this, blacks should know.

    American Sports is pretty meritocratic and the results are NOT equitable, is it now? It is totally dominated by blacks. Look at the US Olympic basketball team, aka Dream Team. It’s all black. Why? It is meritocratic, and it just so happens that blacks are superior when it comes to speed, strength, agility, and etc. Evolution made them that way.
    So, all the running backs are black. NBA is dominated by blacks even though blacks are only 13% of the population.

    LA has lots of Mexicans and Asians, but LA Lakers is mostly black and some white. There are no Asians or Mexicans on the team. That’s how meritocracy works.

    Diversity + Meritocracy have nothing to do with ‘equity’.

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    • Replies: @Rdm
    Blacks can run if they are told to do so.
    Blacks can jump if they are told to do so.

    But Blacks can't think when it comes to logic.

    That's why Kyrie Irving said he doesn't believe the world is round. Remember Kyrie Irving is the millions dollars worth athletes, traveling across the country by car, by flight, you name it. But he doesn't believe the world is round. So let those blockheads swarm into elite schools and make America Great again.
  60. jack ryan says: • Website

    “Dutch Shultz” ( (born Arthur Simon Flegenheimer; August 6, 1902) complained that the higher levels of organized crime were dominated by very racist, ethno centric Sicilian/Italian Mafias who didn’t like Dutch people like him.

    There so much racism in American society – the worst being White Protestant Christians who now are trying to get one of their own on the US Supreme Court.

    The nerve!

    Read More
  61. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    “Asian students? Why not white students?”

    I think some Asian students are just masochistic or have swallowed ‘white guilt’ or something.

    Anyway, this makes for interesting dynamics. If Mexicans want slots in the NBA, maybe they should sue the NBA on behalf of browns, yellows, and blacks against whites.

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  62. @George
    To a large extent, old people are fighting battles from the late 1900s when blacks actually lived near Stuyvesant.

    I graduated from Stuyvesant, it was during the financial crisis, so it basically sucked. On the other hand, I did not get mugged or assaulted inside the building not once. A teacher tried to break up a fight between 2 Chinese gangsters, yes they and their girlfriends can pass the test too, and was killed. Chinese gangsters did not much bother with non Chinese when I was there, Chinese are so racist, so I was never mugged or assaulted by one.

    Does Stuy high deserve its reputation? How many billionaires went there? Much of the New York Public schools' academic reputation was formed by Jewish graduates in the early and mid 1900s, Feynman, Bobby Fischer, Barbara Streisand ect. Maybe it is just me but can you name a few post 1990 famous NYC public school grads that won a nobel prize, started a major corporation or something? It is probably true that a large number of Stuy high grads do end up in medical dental school, but they likely would end up there in any event. The city is much safer now and taking classes in college is more common, so Stuy High may be obsolete.

    The demographics of the potential student body is defined by being within about 1hr from the front door of the school. Most of the areas reachable within 1hr of the school, Chinatown for example, have non black and non Hispanic demographics. You might actually get more qualified Blacks if you allowed students from NJ, as far along the PATH train as very black Newark, to apply, but that is not how educrats or activists think.

    There are many other specialized HSs in NYC. Famous autodidact Pharma Bro Marin Shkreli went to a very informal program, and after starting various important pharma companies at a very young age donated a few million to that program. I am not hearing of major donations to Stuyvesant.

    I don't want to shoot down Stuyvesant too much. But it is basically like a really good suburban school with a legacy of success of mostly, but not all, Jewish immigrants and their children from the early to mid 1900s.

    Last Nobel, 2004, was born in 1963. The list is impressive, but not overwhelming.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stuyvesant_High_School_people

    Lin-Manuel Miranda (Hamilton writer/star) graduated from Hunter College High School. Probably not a future billionaire or Nobel laureate, but he’s relatively famous and highly successful. If, as I imagine, he owns a piece of his production, he should be in decent financial shape for someone in the theatre business.

    My understanding is that Hunter takes most of its kids from kindergarten onward, and then admits those 6th graders who score in the top tenth of 1% on a standardized test (don’t know if this is the same test 8th graders take for Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, et al.) for entry into 7th grade.

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  63. Daniel H says:
    @George
    To a large extent, old people are fighting battles from the late 1900s when blacks actually lived near Stuyvesant.

    I graduated from Stuyvesant, it was during the financial crisis, so it basically sucked. On the other hand, I did not get mugged or assaulted inside the building not once. A teacher tried to break up a fight between 2 Chinese gangsters, yes they and their girlfriends can pass the test too, and was killed. Chinese gangsters did not much bother with non Chinese when I was there, Chinese are so racist, so I was never mugged or assaulted by one.

    Does Stuy high deserve its reputation? How many billionaires went there? Much of the New York Public schools' academic reputation was formed by Jewish graduates in the early and mid 1900s, Feynman, Bobby Fischer, Barbara Streisand ect. Maybe it is just me but can you name a few post 1990 famous NYC public school grads that won a nobel prize, started a major corporation or something? It is probably true that a large number of Stuy high grads do end up in medical dental school, but they likely would end up there in any event. The city is much safer now and taking classes in college is more common, so Stuy High may be obsolete.

    The demographics of the potential student body is defined by being within about 1hr from the front door of the school. Most of the areas reachable within 1hr of the school, Chinatown for example, have non black and non Hispanic demographics. You might actually get more qualified Blacks if you allowed students from NJ, as far along the PATH train as very black Newark, to apply, but that is not how educrats or activists think.

    There are many other specialized HSs in NYC. Famous autodidact Pharma Bro Marin Shkreli went to a very informal program, and after starting various important pharma companies at a very young age donated a few million to that program. I am not hearing of major donations to Stuyvesant.

    I don't want to shoot down Stuyvesant too much. But it is basically like a really good suburban school with a legacy of success of mostly, but not all, Jewish immigrants and their children from the early to mid 1900s.

    Last Nobel, 2004, was born in 1963. The list is impressive, but not overwhelming.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stuyvesant_High_School_people

    >>The demographics of the potential student body is defined by being within about 1hr from the front door of the school. Most of the areas reachable within 1hr of the school,

    I know a Chinese girl who commuted from central Staten Island to Bronx Science – way up in Bedford Park. Commute must have been at least 2 hours each way.

    My brother commuted from Long Island to a very selective New York city school on scholarship. Easily 2 hour commute each way. Still, I would have preferred his experience to my shitty Long Island high school experience.

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  64. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I wonder if morons like Hewitt will ever come around to realizing that mass immigration just added more competitive pressures on blacks. And as long as whites can deal with immigrants than with blacks, black issues got neglected over the yrs.

    Of course, Democratic elites got sick of blacks for destroying once great cities like Detroit and Baltimore. And with black rage as the emergent black attitude and politics, whites figured it was better to hire and work with immigrants who also serve as useful buffer. Immigration mattered more to urban white/Jewish Democrats since their power was concentrated in cities(that blacks tend to destroy).

    But Democratic elites couldn’t speak honestly about this because blacks have symbolic moral value associated with Civil Rights Movement and cash-and-cool value in association with sports and music. Democratic Elites couldn’t spell out why immigrants are useful to them: as demographic leverage against blacks.

    So, the Democratic elites fooled black dummies into believing that all those immigrants will side with blacks against the KKK.
    Problem. There is NO KKK.

    Of late, Democratic elites have associated BLM with LGBT with hilarious results. BLM is anti-white, whereas LGBT is a proxy of white/Jewish Liberal Power. So, if LGBT is associated with BLM, whites and Jews can just wave the homo flag and pretend they’re with BLM too since one is ‘intersectioned’ with the other. Even funnier is the ‘intersectionality’ of Vaginalists and Sharians.

    LOL.

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  65. @George
    To a large extent, old people are fighting battles from the late 1900s when blacks actually lived near Stuyvesant.

    I graduated from Stuyvesant, it was during the financial crisis, so it basically sucked. On the other hand, I did not get mugged or assaulted inside the building not once. A teacher tried to break up a fight between 2 Chinese gangsters, yes they and their girlfriends can pass the test too, and was killed. Chinese gangsters did not much bother with non Chinese when I was there, Chinese are so racist, so I was never mugged or assaulted by one.

    Does Stuy high deserve its reputation? How many billionaires went there? Much of the New York Public schools' academic reputation was formed by Jewish graduates in the early and mid 1900s, Feynman, Bobby Fischer, Barbara Streisand ect. Maybe it is just me but can you name a few post 1990 famous NYC public school grads that won a nobel prize, started a major corporation or something? It is probably true that a large number of Stuy high grads do end up in medical dental school, but they likely would end up there in any event. The city is much safer now and taking classes in college is more common, so Stuy High may be obsolete.

    The demographics of the potential student body is defined by being within about 1hr from the front door of the school. Most of the areas reachable within 1hr of the school, Chinatown for example, have non black and non Hispanic demographics. You might actually get more qualified Blacks if you allowed students from NJ, as far along the PATH train as very black Newark, to apply, but that is not how educrats or activists think.

    There are many other specialized HSs in NYC. Famous autodidact Pharma Bro Marin Shkreli went to a very informal program, and after starting various important pharma companies at a very young age donated a few million to that program. I am not hearing of major donations to Stuyvesant.

    I don't want to shoot down Stuyvesant too much. But it is basically like a really good suburban school with a legacy of success of mostly, but not all, Jewish immigrants and their children from the early to mid 1900s.

    Last Nobel, 2004, was born in 1963. The list is impressive, but not overwhelming.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stuyvesant_High_School_people

    Yeah, this was pretty much my impression as an NYC teacher a few years before you were a student: Stuy was fine for certain kids, but wildly overrated.

    FWIW, I ran the numbers for correlation of race and outcomes in the other 400 NYC high schools the other day and Stuyvesant and the other tested schools aren’t at all atypical:

    https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/diversity-lags/

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  66. Veritatis says:

    Off topic. But opinions on Nunes presser? Specifically:
    1) what are expected next steps for executive and Intel committee?
    2) can Sessions now get involved?
    3) is Trump admin pursuing parallel investigation? Through which agency?
    4) does anyone seriously think Obama is at risk of any legal consequences? (Trump seems more of a leverage/negotiate guy to me).

    I don’t want to wait for Buchanan!

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  67. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh

    Hard work is prized, but it is not a guarantee of anything. Again, this is where I think Asians are naive.

     

    No, its because we actually believe in that as a virtue.

    As for myself, I don't really have much of a dog in this fight. I honestly think that education is a bubble, as per Peter Thiel; I work with enough college material indirectly now to note that it has become very much an indoctrination camp that I can't exactly being passionate to send my children to. Being forced to write essays about how the blind suffer from an optical normative society and how the word "disability" is offensive and how surrealistic trans-women challenge the objectification of women - to note to actual assignments just recently I've seen - doesn't seem like its all that helpful for a future of anything but SJW elite.

    Anyone who's seen me post before will note that I have nothing against freedom of association or racial quotas if they wish to place them; I will nonetheless snark about hypocrisy as it is relevant.

    My children are half-white. It'll be difficult, I think, to simply consider them foreigners either - though admittedly, the half white part is French-Canadian, so there is that.


    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.
     
    I don't necessarily disagree. Every country has the right to control her own borders, for any reason and promote the welfare of her citizens.

    “No, its because we actually believe in that as a virtue.”

    It is a virtue. Is anyone here saying it’s not a virtue? My point is that success in the U.S. is not based solely on hard work and ability. My parents were true believers in the value of hard work, and instilled that belief into me and my siblings. Most people who are hard workers will be well-served by it. However, it is no guarantee of the type of success you might think it should produce.

    I agree that education is a bubble.

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  68. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Asian over-representation goes against PC narrative that people-of-color face some great discrimination.

    But most of these Asians will grow up to be anti-white PC agents and collaborators.
    Partly because grinds and drones, though good at learning, aren’t good at critical thinking, courage, and integrity. Indeed, their eagerness to learn suggests ingestion than digestion. They just swallow everything whole.

    But I think high education costs have something to do with it as well. When these kids attend expensive universities down the line, their parents will be spending tons of money. And with all that investment, the pressure is to graduate and succeed.
    This makes PC even worse because even students who see the BS will remain silent and just go along since their parents spent SO MUCH MONEY.

    If you can go to college for free and get kicked out for being anti-PC, that’ s one thing. But if you’ve spent 100,000s and get kicked out, that’s a big hit… esp if your parents aren’t all that rich.

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  69. Ivy says:
    @Thomas
    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another "white bread" food).

    "Jordan Peele explains 'Get Out's' creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate," http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.
    ...
    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.
     
    I've been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as "the original white privilege" with this meme kicking around.

    Jumped the cow as the new jumped the shark?

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  70. Glossy says: • Website

    I don’t know what that last sentence means.

    It means that the person who wrote it would fail the verbal portion of a standardized test.

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  71. Anony says:
    @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    Are you under the impression that Asians decided on and are in control of the entrance criteria to Stuyvesant, or anywhere else for that matter?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Are you under the impression that Asians decided on and are in control of the entrance criteria to Stuyvesant, or anywhere else for that matter?"

    No.
  72. Glossy says: • Website

    Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community

    The share of white births in the city has been going up:

    http://lazyglossophiliac.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-stats-of-ice-and-gunfire.html

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    • Replies: @Triumph104

    ...And a significant number of births are from the city’s poorest neighborhoods — nearly 6 in 10 moms were on Medicaid or government-financed health insurance for the needy.

    And about 40 percent of the births overall were to unwed mothers.

    Blacks had the lowest birth rate citywide, with 12.7 per 1,000 — and more black women are having abortions than babies, at a rate of 55 percent.

    ...Borough Park, heavily Orthodox Jewish, is easily the city’s baby capital, with a robust birth rate of 27.9 per 1,000 residents, according to the data. In 2013, some 5,458 babies were born in the Brooklyn enclave.

    ...Bayside, Queens, had the lowest count with just 652 babies or 5.5 per 1,000.

    ...There are fewer unplanned pregnancies, data show. The teen birth rate has plummeted 10 percent since 2012 and 37.6 percent since 2004.

    http://nypost.com/2015/04/27/city-birth-rates-havent-been-this-low-since-great-depression/

     

  73. Ivy says:
    @SteveM

    "This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as “have so many extracurricular programs”, “get this test score” and the like."
     
    The larger issue is a how contrived the entire American admissions process is across the board. Engaging in specific extracurricular activities just to get a ticket punched is ridiculous. A kid forced to take piano lessons that he hates for 5 years to get admitted to high school points to a system that rewards neurotic parents and says little about the kid. Too bad for the kids caught up in that.

    Parenthetically, I was talking about doctors with an ER nurse at a major urban teaching hospital. She told me that a good number of the doctors she works with are socially retarded and a few are even sociopathic. Many don't have the empathy we generally equate with physicians. I.e., they got in for the bucks and the prestige.

    I rhetorically asked about the med school admissions process as a filtering mechanism. "What about the volunteer work? The essays? The interviews?" We concluded, Fake, Fake, Fake. As pre-meds many doctors were smart enough but also ruthless enough and conniving enough to fake the empathy when volunteering, gin up the Albert Schweitzer in service to mankind wanna-be in the essays, and memorize a script that pushes all the right buttons for the interview.

    In other words, many med-school applicants are Stuyvesant applicants only in another milieu further downstream. And their inflated applications actually imply nothing about their character, only that they could scheme to get the requisite tickets punched.

    They should use a min threshold of a test score as first pass into those hyper-competitive schools and then use a weighted lottery based on the test score like the NBA draft to select a class. I.e. the higher the score the higher the probability of being randomly selected. And forget about the other stuff entirely because so much of it is gamed.

    We have a few generations of doctors, dentists and nurses in the extended family including a recent MD. They all went into medicine to help people and genuinely practice that. They also would tell you that there are too many doctors that spent too much time studying and in labs when they could have picked up some more socializing, but at least they are more lively and less depressed than dentists.

    The nurses say that too many nurses smoke too much and end up with aching feet exacerbated by later career weight gains. They have kind hearts. Medicine became an endurance contest over the past few decades and took some of the joy away. It takes work to retain the commitment.

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  74. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Do illegal alien Asian kids also get accepted?

    After all, NY is a hangout city for illegals, aka ‘sanctuary city’(from rule of law).

    Mecca for above-the-law.

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  75. Anony says:

    People seem to think that graduating from one of these high schools opens doors for you and sets you up with opportunities that other people don’t get. It doesn’t. With the same SAT scores and grades you stand a better chance of getting into a top college from another school than you do from Stuyvesant, because Stuyvesant students compete against each other for a quota of slots allocated to the school. And once you graduate from college no one cares where you went to high school. If you advance after college it’s going to be on your college record.

    I went to Bronx Science a long time ago. My classmates and I have led quite average lives, and I’m certain we’re all in exactly the same places we’d be if we’d gone to high school elsewhere.

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  76. prosa123 says: • Website

    A definitely non-trivial and fast-growing percentage of the white children in NYC are Orthodox or Hasidic and only attend religious schools. They wouldn’t even try to get into Stuyvesant.

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  77. Jack D says:
    @SPMoore8
    From the point of view of rational humanism I am totally on your side and Mr. Chieh's with regard to merit in higher education, as well as Jack D's 100 year old argument about the same thing.

    However. Don't you see that group inequalities doesn't work very well? As it pertains to higher education, what do you think would follow if College X was, say, 70% East Asian or 70% Jewish or what have you (based strictly on merit, I grant you.) The first thing that would happen is that parents would stop encouraging their children to go to such a school, if they were neither East Asian nor Jewish. If you don' t believe me, what do you think white parents do when their public schools go 50% black or 60% black (or Latino) or whatever: they send their kids to private schools.

    So eventually you will have a situation where "nobody goes there anymore because it's too crowded" and Harvard and Princeton become the butt of crude ethnic jokes, and non-Asians or non-Jews will make some other school the source of their sense of prestige.

    What does this mean? It means that America will only work as country if everyone assimilates, and ultimately everyone intermarries, so that one's race, or heritage, or noble lineage, or inheritance does not count. The fact that our African minority is assimilating at a glacial base is evidence of our failure. (Not that there's any easy solution, I grant.)

    That's why we can't have groups fighting over whatever, and we can't have this or that group dominating every thing. That's a recipe for alienation and social conflict. If one is annoyed at the attempts by less powerful minorities (e.g., blacks, Latinos) attempting to leverage the system to get representation as a group, one cannot have at the same time some small indentifiable groups running everything at the top. It's just not healthy, and it works to create what is in effect a caste system.

    Remember when iSteve wrote about how democracy will not work in Iraq because family intermarriage worked against it? Group identification works exactly the same way. Sometimes if I wonder if we would be better off if all group identifications were prohibited.

    This is exactly the argument that Lowell (President of Harvard) made 100 years ago:

    “The summer hotel that is ruined by admitting Jews meets its fate . . . because they drive away the Gentiles, and then after the Gentiles have left, they leave also.”

    See Malcolm Gladwell’s review here:

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10/getting-in

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Thanks for this, but you'll note that the deciding point was not the 20% Jewish admits (which given the way things are nowadays at places like Cal Berkeley or in the NYC top HS, isn't that bad), but the impact that would have on fundraising. In other words, the wealthy alumni would feel alienated from an institution that was not 'like them.'

    You can say that's terrible, racist, whatever, but while I don't like it on abstract human terms I can understand it. I mean, at one time I never could understand why none of my nieces and nephews went to Cal, but given the proportions there today, I understand it.
  78. Pat Casey says:
    @james wilson
    Someone explain to me how "leadership is important to math, because isolation seems to be the default position of mathmeticians.

    Lol.

    I read Derbyshire’s Prime Obsession last month. When he got to the best argument for why the Riemann equation can’t be proved, I finally understood the zeta function and could conceptualize Riemann’s wager well enough verbally to sufficiently intuit why that argument about why it’s not true is arguing the truth. And that felt Great, because I’ve always felt like mathematicians were the smartest frauds this side of Freud— engineers are the real deal. Basically, the Zeta function allows you to count up and count down at the same time, and that’s bullshit, if for example you’ve deeply read Scotus Erigena. (Tell me why I’m wrong someone who summons imaginary numbers to solve imaginary propositions.)

    Folks who are familiar with special looney bins know that there are savants who can sit two to a pair and bounce prime numbers off each other sequentially back and forth ad infinitum. That’s because the real magic is always social, and big discoveries tend to happen roughly two at a time. History is myth; truth is perspectival; we live in stories that structure our reality; no one can ever truly say who did what to whom re motive. Someone called that James Joyce’s deepest insight. And it turns out to turn on a mind formed by the earth of a language that has been called the most mystical known to man, in so many words, by several men at least as smart as Steve.

    Make blacks with average White IQs memorize ten logical fallacies per year for four years and I bet most of them would “win” against any Asian in a courtroom all else being equal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    Make blacks with average White IQs memorize ten logical fallacies per year for four years and I bet most of them would “win” against any Asian in a courtroom all else being equal.
     
    Blacks with average White IQs or slightly above average white IQs usually happen to be very emotionally intelligent, and if they drop heavy black accents/Ebonics can have a real facility with language. Asians tend to lag in these traits well behind their IQs. Of course the former is going to be a much better persuader of regular human beings than the latter.

    I once read a theory about Asian tolerance for monotony and tedium - viz, that it grew out of widespread rice cultivation throughout East Asia, which requires those traits in abundance. I wonder if anyone else has heard of this and if it has merit . . .

  79. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    “When Sterling-Cooper-Draper-Whatever was inevitably subsumed, it was by a gruffer, less polished, blunter outfit, but not by Jews. They were presented as being Black Irish, as I recall. Don Draper got his revenge by co-opting hippydom, however.”

    Wrote a book about that:

    The End of an Era: Mad Men and the Ordeal of Civility

    https://www.amazon.com/End-Era-Mad-Ordeal-Civility-ebook/dp/B013S95JAK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1490234723&sr=8-1&keywords=ordeal+mad+men

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  80. @SPMoore8
    From the point of view of rational humanism I am totally on your side and Mr. Chieh's with regard to merit in higher education, as well as Jack D's 100 year old argument about the same thing.

    However. Don't you see that group inequalities doesn't work very well? As it pertains to higher education, what do you think would follow if College X was, say, 70% East Asian or 70% Jewish or what have you (based strictly on merit, I grant you.) The first thing that would happen is that parents would stop encouraging their children to go to such a school, if they were neither East Asian nor Jewish. If you don' t believe me, what do you think white parents do when their public schools go 50% black or 60% black (or Latino) or whatever: they send their kids to private schools.

    So eventually you will have a situation where "nobody goes there anymore because it's too crowded" and Harvard and Princeton become the butt of crude ethnic jokes, and non-Asians or non-Jews will make some other school the source of their sense of prestige.

    What does this mean? It means that America will only work as country if everyone assimilates, and ultimately everyone intermarries, so that one's race, or heritage, or noble lineage, or inheritance does not count. The fact that our African minority is assimilating at a glacial base is evidence of our failure. (Not that there's any easy solution, I grant.)

    That's why we can't have groups fighting over whatever, and we can't have this or that group dominating every thing. That's a recipe for alienation and social conflict. If one is annoyed at the attempts by less powerful minorities (e.g., blacks, Latinos) attempting to leverage the system to get representation as a group, one cannot have at the same time some small indentifiable groups running everything at the top. It's just not healthy, and it works to create what is in effect a caste system.

    Remember when iSteve wrote about how democracy will not work in Iraq because family intermarriage worked against it? Group identification works exactly the same way. Sometimes if I wonder if we would be better off if all group identifications were prohibited.

    … we can’t have this or that group dominating every thing.

    Sure we can. Whites fully dominated America until recent decades, and it worked fine for whites.

    That’s a recipe for alienation and social conflict.

    That’s already here. Alienation and social conflict will be not be ameliorated in a further drift towards pluralism, or some imaginary singularity of homogenization. Humans are tribal. Those who are less tribal will be steamrolled by those who are more tribal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    The "white people" who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all "Americans". And I am living testimony to this, since my family has been marrying out in this country for over 200 years (and yes I have all of Europe covered).

    On the other hand we have failed to assimilate our African sourced population, and while I expect we will eventually absorb our Latino, Muslim/Arab, East Asian, and South Asian populations it will be a lot harder to do so if they keep streaming into the country unchecked and if each of these groups seeks to establish their own group privileges.
  81. Truth says:
    @Gene Su
    Anyone who thinks that Charles Murray a rank, nasty little racist is either an idiot or inattentive. Coming Apart is about the white underclass. He is more frightened that whites will sink to the level of blacks. He has seen it in Britain.

    It seems that if anyone writes a book pointing out the problems of the black underclass, they are immediately called a racist even if their work portrays blacks in a sympathetic light. Daniel Moynihan was called a racist but he wrote that the disintegration of the black family was due to centuries of racism (a common liberal nostrum). I bet that if Thomas Sowell was a white Southerner and wrote Black Rednecks and White Liberals in the sixties, he would have been branded a racist.

    The British underclass was always an underclass, that’s why they call it…The British Underclass.

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  82. SPMoore8 says:
    @Jack D
    This is exactly the argument that Lowell (President of Harvard) made 100 years ago:

    “The summer hotel that is ruined by admitting Jews meets its fate . . . because they drive away the Gentiles, and then after the Gentiles have left, they leave also.”

    See Malcolm Gladwell's review here:

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10/getting-in

    Thanks for this, but you’ll note that the deciding point was not the 20% Jewish admits (which given the way things are nowadays at places like Cal Berkeley or in the NYC top HS, isn’t that bad), but the impact that would have on fundraising. In other words, the wealthy alumni would feel alienated from an institution that was not ‘like them.’

    You can say that’s terrible, racist, whatever, but while I don’t like it on abstract human terms I can understand it. I mean, at one time I never could understand why none of my nieces and nephews went to Cal, but given the proportions there today, I understand it.

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  83. @Daniel Chieh
    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.

    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.

    Maybe not you personally, but some of you are. How many Asians in America are Democrat voters or ‘Asian Conservatives’ ? Probably too many for whites who like living in a white country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Asians were actually, until fairly recently, majority Republican voters. The recent surge of Asian SJWs is incomprehensible to me, and extremely annoying, as it is largely self-destructive.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth, the Asian Conservative you noted is pretty obviously a parody. I mean:

    "A border wall is unconservative, and it offends my Asian sensibilities. If there's anything you won't find in Asia, it's a big wall"

    I made a similar joke once: China would never ever do something like build a wall.
  84. Anonym says:
    @Sunbeam
    "What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You’re competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites–even the smarties–don’t really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience–a plum assignment for all kids."

    If you've reached that point, and I can't really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I'm talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    Ok. So the process goes like this:

    1. Immigration into white countries, because we make better societies that everyone wants to immigrate to.
    2. Races self-segregate, white people again cluster and put a lot of effort into making things good in their areas for their progeny.
    3. These areas become countries.
    3. Go to 1.

    Eventually we end up packed like sardines into the least desirable areas in our countries, all because our traitor politicians made some laws our people would never have agreed to if consulted?

    Our countries are worth fighting for.

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  85. SPMoore8 says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    … we can’t have this or that group dominating every thing.
     
    Sure we can. Whites fully dominated America until recent decades, and it worked fine for whites.

    That’s a recipe for alienation and social conflict.
     
    That’s already here. Alienation and social conflict will be not be ameliorated in a further drift towards pluralism, or some imaginary singularity of homogenization. Humans are tribal. Those who are less tribal will be steamrolled by those who are more tribal.

    The “white people” who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all “Americans”. And I am living testimony to this, since my family has been marrying out in this country for over 200 years (and yes I have all of Europe covered).

    On the other hand we have failed to assimilate our African sourced population, and while I expect we will eventually absorb our Latino, Muslim/Arab, East Asian, and South Asian populations it will be a lot harder to do so if they keep streaming into the country unchecked and if each of these groups seeks to establish their own group privileges.

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    • Replies: @Johnny B.
    All white ethnic groups have not seamlessly assimilated into the Anglo-American culture. New York is a perfect example of this. You have Catholic Southern European, Orthodox Jewish, and Orthodox Eastern European enclaves.
    , @reezy

    The “white people” who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all “Americans”.
     
    Sure, but the cultural/genetic distances between these various ethnic groups of whites are at least an order of magnitude less than the distances between any of them are to the other continental races. Sufficiently large quantitative differences can produce very tangible and easily categorizable qualitative differences.
  86. Truth says:
    @George
    To a large extent, old people are fighting battles from the late 1900s when blacks actually lived near Stuyvesant.

    I graduated from Stuyvesant, it was during the financial crisis, so it basically sucked. On the other hand, I did not get mugged or assaulted inside the building not once. A teacher tried to break up a fight between 2 Chinese gangsters, yes they and their girlfriends can pass the test too, and was killed. Chinese gangsters did not much bother with non Chinese when I was there, Chinese are so racist, so I was never mugged or assaulted by one.

    Does Stuy high deserve its reputation? How many billionaires went there? Much of the New York Public schools' academic reputation was formed by Jewish graduates in the early and mid 1900s, Feynman, Bobby Fischer, Barbara Streisand ect. Maybe it is just me but can you name a few post 1990 famous NYC public school grads that won a nobel prize, started a major corporation or something? It is probably true that a large number of Stuy high grads do end up in medical dental school, but they likely would end up there in any event. The city is much safer now and taking classes in college is more common, so Stuy High may be obsolete.

    The demographics of the potential student body is defined by being within about 1hr from the front door of the school. Most of the areas reachable within 1hr of the school, Chinatown for example, have non black and non Hispanic demographics. You might actually get more qualified Blacks if you allowed students from NJ, as far along the PATH train as very black Newark, to apply, but that is not how educrats or activists think.

    There are many other specialized HSs in NYC. Famous autodidact Pharma Bro Marin Shkreli went to a very informal program, and after starting various important pharma companies at a very young age donated a few million to that program. I am not hearing of major donations to Stuyvesant.

    I don't want to shoot down Stuyvesant too much. But it is basically like a really good suburban school with a legacy of success of mostly, but not all, Jewish immigrants and their children from the early to mid 1900s.

    Last Nobel, 2004, was born in 1963. The list is impressive, but not overwhelming.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stuyvesant_High_School_people

    Brooklyn Tech Grads

    Not nobel winners but did fairly weell, I attended with three of them, all three kept trying to be my buddy, persistent little buggers.

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  87. @Glossy
    Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community

    The share of white births in the city has been going up:

    http://lazyglossophiliac.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-stats-of-ice-and-gunfire.html

    …And a significant number of births are from the city’s poorest neighborhoods — nearly 6 in 10 moms were on Medicaid or government-financed health insurance for the needy.

    And about 40 percent of the births overall were to unwed mothers.

    Blacks had the lowest birth rate citywide, with 12.7 per 1,000 — and more black women are having abortions than babies, at a rate of 55 percent.

    …Borough Park, heavily Orthodox Jewish, is easily the city’s baby capital, with a robust birth rate of 27.9 per 1,000 residents, according to the data. In 2013, some 5,458 babies were born in the Brooklyn enclave.

    …Bayside, Queens, had the lowest count with just 652 babies or 5.5 per 1,000.

    …There are fewer unplanned pregnancies, data show. The teen birth rate has plummeted 10 percent since 2012 and 37.6 percent since 2004.

    http://nypost.com/2015/04/27/city-birth-rates-havent-been-this-low-since-great-depression/

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    • Replies: @Ed
    Fascinating that blacks have the lowest birth rates in the city. I suspect housing has something to do with it but need to compare with other locales.

    NYC has a long wait for public housing & securing a voucher is almost impossible in the city. It simply doesn't make sense to be a single mother with many kids in the city.
  88. @Daniel Chieh

    This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity
     
    But isn't the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?

    Yes and no. University and College admissions are supposed to be choosing candidates with the highest aptitude to engage in the life of the mind. Usually grades will tell you something about that, as would standardized test scores that reliably measure intelligence.

    The problem with the Asian model in the U.S. is that drilling mathematics for 4 hours every night and gaming the standardized tests to an extreme degree doesn’t really reveal much about the applicant’s aptitude – they’re more finished products at that point. The end is the learning, not the score – Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.

    There’s also the issue of whether and to what degree non-Asians want to engage in a an arms race in which their children would be made into unidimensional, grade attaining automatons for a chance at an elite education. Most American parents want their talented kids to have experiences and sincere interests outside of hours of after school academic drilling – they want their smart kid to be the just OK shortstop on a mediocre high school baseball team, have a robust social life, or volunteer at Church for its own sake rather than resume building. There are life skills useful in academic and professional pursuits that can’t be scored for analysis by an admissions officer.

    This is clearly a clash of cultures, where the insurgent Asians are gaming the system and forcing unwanted changes on the host culture, and a resultant backlash.

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    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Most American parents want their talented kids to have experiences and sincere interests outside of hours of after school academic drilling – they want their smart kid to be the just OK shortstop on a mediocre high school baseball team, have a robust social life, or volunteer at Church for its own sake rather than resume building. There are life skills useful in academic and professional pursuits that can’t be scored for analysis by an admissions officer.

    This is clearly a clash of cultures, where the insurgent Asians are gaming the system and forcing unwanted changes on the host culture, and a resultant backlash.


    I agree.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    The end is the learning, not the score – Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.
     
    I'm mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything), but I think my issue with this claim is that if it was indeed true, then the test scores would be high in isolation of all other achievement. You wouldn't be seeing higher saving rates, income, reduced crime rate, etc.

    But that's not what is being seen really. The test scores aren't really high because of simple grinding in a manner that excludes overall performance otherwise. Jack D has made this point before, and its worthwhile to note: being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don't see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.

    , @anarchyst
    Another aspect to the "Asian model" is the quest to be technically accurate, when it comes to music. There are many talented Asians who have taken up the piano or violin. Other instruments, such as guitar or wind instruments are generally frowned upon. Their performances are technically accurate, but they have no "soul". It seems that, in their quest for technical accuracy, something gets "lost"...you see, speaking as a professional musician, a little "slop" (variation) in the performance adds to the human aspect of music. The little imperfections, straying off the sheet music actually adds to the performance...something that Asians generally do not have...
    Just my two cents...
  89. @Sunbeam
    "What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You’re competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites–even the smarties–don’t really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience–a plum assignment for all kids."

    If you've reached that point, and I can't really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I'm talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    If you’ve reached that point, and I can’t really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I’m talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    Exactly. That’s the essential logic of it.

    When there was an assumption that America was Anglo-Protestant America, and all immigrants had to assimilate to it, and blacks should be attempting to live by Anglo norms, then there was something of a nation, even if there were various groups that were not fully integrated parts of it.

    Once the official ideology changed to minoritarianism, then there is no real nation, just a random conglomeration of people under the authority of the same state power. And in fact no we’re in a situation where the destruction of the nation–as having a culture, traditions and being a people–is openly celebrated, and people who even bring up the nation’s former existence as desirable are mocked, insulted and shouted down. (See Steve King.)

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  90. @Pat Casey
    Lol.

    I read Derbyshire's Prime Obsession last month. When he got to the best argument for why the Riemann equation can't be proved, I finally understood the zeta function and could conceptualize Riemann's wager well enough verbally to sufficiently intuit why that argument about why it's not true is arguing the truth. And that felt Great, because I've always felt like mathematicians were the smartest frauds this side of Freud--- engineers are the real deal. Basically, the Zeta function allows you to count up and count down at the same time, and that's bullshit, if for example you've deeply read Scotus Erigena. (Tell me why I'm wrong someone who summons imaginary numbers to solve imaginary propositions.)

    Folks who are familiar with special looney bins know that there are savants who can sit two to a pair and bounce prime numbers off each other sequentially back and forth ad infinitum. That's because the real magic is always social, and big discoveries tend to happen roughly two at a time. History is myth; truth is perspectival; we live in stories that structure our reality; no one can ever truly say who did what to whom re motive. Someone called that James Joyce's deepest insight. And it turns out to turn on a mind formed by the earth of a language that has been called the most mystical known to man, in so many words, by several men at least as smart as Steve.

    Make blacks with average White IQs memorize ten logical fallacies per year for four years and I bet most of them would "win" against any Asian in a courtroom all else being equal.

    Make blacks with average White IQs memorize ten logical fallacies per year for four years and I bet most of them would “win” against any Asian in a courtroom all else being equal.

    Blacks with average White IQs or slightly above average white IQs usually happen to be very emotionally intelligent, and if they drop heavy black accents/Ebonics can have a real facility with language. Asians tend to lag in these traits well behind their IQs. Of course the former is going to be a much better persuader of regular human beings than the latter.

    I once read a theory about Asian tolerance for monotony and tedium – viz, that it grew out of widespread rice cultivation throughout East Asia, which requires those traits in abundance. I wonder if anyone else has heard of this and if it has merit . . .

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    • Replies: @Pat Casey
    It's easy to imagine an Asian male losing his mind if some spirit put the power of leadership on him. He might run a mock.

    What impresses you about the blacks who for example right rap lyrics just for fun is their gift of lyrics charged with polysemous meanings per word. So dumb white guys write off a Nas for being puerile at the end of the day over lines like, My flow is poetry. That line goes quick and doesn't get accented so that it can mean four things when you play with it. You gotta play with fundamentals. There's an interesting biopic on Naz btw that makes a point of showcasing the Egyptian Book of the Dead that he grew up reading when they do the montage, and what that means is: Oh you think Jay-Z's won? Go back and read my lyrics. For of course the big thing about those Egyptians is what the held happened when the the spells especially got engraved.

    I remember reading that rice theory around here some years back.

    Joyce learned his Irish from Patrick Pearse; I meant the Irish psyche not the sod or the sot.

  91. CAL says:
    @Sunbeam
    "What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You’re competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites–even the smarties–don’t really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience–a plum assignment for all kids."

    If you've reached that point, and I can't really think of an argument against it, why are we bothering with the illusion of having a country at all? I'm talking about the one we have now.

    Might as well pick spots and separate into separate nations.

    That used to be the normal understanding in this country which is why there were immigration restrictions against Asian countries.

    The problem with the grinds (interestingly Heinlein uses the term in Starship Troopers) is they distort the system. It’s like HS sports now where to make any team you almost have to play it year-round. It results in people who are good at one thing but stunted in general. That’s not good for a society.

    Michigan State has an Honors College scholarship test with a few free rides on the line. The test though is top secret and seems to be whimsical with how it picks what you need to know. It’s not junk material, but it seems random with what it expects. When my daughter took it, none of the winners were Asian. I saw quite a few kids who seemed to just give up after about 30 minutes. So maybe the goal should be secrecy and randomness, kind of like life.

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  92. @Anonymous
    By writing

    Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High.
     
    you made an assumption that Jews would not protest, why they are not considered as white, and thus why they are antisemitically discriminated against by forbidding them to be admitted to the supposedly "Best White High".

    … you made an assumption that Jews would not protest, why they are not considered as white, and thus why they are antisemitically discriminated against by forbidding them to be admitted to the supposedly “Best White High”.

    Some American Jews are on the white bus. They aren’t wrapped up in their ethnicity any more than the next guy, consider themselves white and see their interests pretty much the same as white gentiles.

    Some American Jews are actively involved in the “flight from white”, trying to jockey for position in the coalition of the oppressed. (The laughable claims of “anti-Semitism!” associated with the Trump campaign an example.)

    And there’s a fair number of American Jews that play it both ways. Whatever is convenient depending on the situation. If it’s high school or college admissions, then they are white–no different from some guy from the hollers of West Virginia, and any suggestion that they are taking up too much of the white quota and should have their own quota … anti-Semitism! But if it’s denouncing the oppressive white man … they are distinctly Jewish, not really white, but a fellow outsider, a fellow victim who deserves a good slice of diversity spoils.

    I like making people choose a side. Coalition of the oppressed? Great–then that’s your place over there. We’re forming our group over here.

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  93. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Harvard-Westlake school is an amalgam of Harvard School (an all boys school) and Westlake School (an all girls school). In 1981, they were still a decade away from merging. The all boys institution was called “Harvard School” at that time.

    Matt Weiner is mentally ill if he thinks Jews were a persecuted minority at Harvard School. There was a widespread assertion that Jewish enrollment was limited to 40%, because the allegedly antiSemitic administration didn’t want Jews to dominate. (Nobody except Matt was mentally ill enough, or unobservant enough, to imagine that the number was much UNDER 40%, but there were angry assertions that it was capped at 40%, no more.)

    Well….a member of the class of 1981 decided to fact check this assertion, tallied up his class and found that it was upwards of 60% Jewish. That’s right, Matt Weiner paranoically imagined himself to be a persecuted minority, in an environment where Jews were a SOLID MAJORITY, and dominated socially as well as numerically. And, I might add, there was significant anti-GENTILE bullying there. Those who struck back, were deemed “antisemites.”

    I have nothing against Jews, but, these are the facts.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Matt Weiner is mentally ill if he thinks Jews were a persecuted minority at Harvard School. There was a widespread assertion that Jewish enrollment was limited to 40%, because the allegedly antiSemitic administration didn’t want Jews to dominate. (Nobody except Matt was mentally ill enough, or unobservant enough, to imagine that the number was much UNDER 40%, but there were angry assertions that it was capped at 40%, no more.)
     
    News flash. Jews are ALWAYS a persecuted minority... even when they are the majority. They always punch up. Their actions and goals are always socially-aware and enlightened.* They are truly the light unto other nations. You don't believe that? What are you, some sort of an anti-Semite?

    A Jewish administrator (and an admissions officer) at my Ivy League alma mater once ruminated rather openly in front me and several other staff members (and student workers) that both Jews and Asians were smart, but the Jews cared about the world while the Asians didn't. That was one of his justifications for favoring dimmer Jewish applicants over brighters Asians.

    Mr. Sailer's "People Liks Us" comment is right on the mark.
  94. @Daniel Chieh

    Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.
     
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as "have so many extracurricular programs", "get this test score" and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    In a culture where hard work is particularly prized, and in even the Western culture where hard work is supposedly recognized as the path to success, it obviously rankles.

    If you could stop sperging, you could see that if an organization mindlessly heeds a certain set of rules, people will start gaming the system.

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  95. Ed says:
    @Triumph104

    ...And a significant number of births are from the city’s poorest neighborhoods — nearly 6 in 10 moms were on Medicaid or government-financed health insurance for the needy.

    And about 40 percent of the births overall were to unwed mothers.

    Blacks had the lowest birth rate citywide, with 12.7 per 1,000 — and more black women are having abortions than babies, at a rate of 55 percent.

    ...Borough Park, heavily Orthodox Jewish, is easily the city’s baby capital, with a robust birth rate of 27.9 per 1,000 residents, according to the data. In 2013, some 5,458 babies were born in the Brooklyn enclave.

    ...Bayside, Queens, had the lowest count with just 652 babies or 5.5 per 1,000.

    ...There are fewer unplanned pregnancies, data show. The teen birth rate has plummeted 10 percent since 2012 and 37.6 percent since 2004.

    http://nypost.com/2015/04/27/city-birth-rates-havent-been-this-low-since-great-depression/

     

    Fascinating that blacks have the lowest birth rates in the city. I suspect housing has something to do with it but need to compare with other locales.

    NYC has a long wait for public housing & securing a voucher is almost impossible in the city. It simply doesn’t make sense to be a single mother with many kids in the city.

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    While housing may explain why the 55% black abortion rate in New York City is higher than the 42% national black abortion rate, it is not the reason why blacks have the lowest birth rate in the city.

    The national birth rate is 13.2. The black birth rate is normally lower than the Hispanic birth rate. The birth rate for whites in New York City is abnormally high due to ultra-Orthodox Jews and perhaps "white" Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa. The abnormally high birth rate for Asians in New York City, 17.1, could also be explained by Muslims, Pakistan and Bangladesh in particular.

  96. @Gene Su
    Anyone who thinks that Charles Murray a rank, nasty little racist is either an idiot or inattentive. Coming Apart is about the white underclass. He is more frightened that whites will sink to the level of blacks. He has seen it in Britain.

    It seems that if anyone writes a book pointing out the problems of the black underclass, they are immediately called a racist even if their work portrays blacks in a sympathetic light. Daniel Moynihan was called a racist but he wrote that the disintegration of the black family was due to centuries of racism (a common liberal nostrum). I bet that if Thomas Sowell was a white Southerner and wrote Black Rednecks and White Liberals in the sixties, he would have been branded a racist.

    Sowell gets called a racist anyway. He doesn’t have the correct opinions, so he is not a real black. Just like Clarence Thomas.

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  97. Twinkie says:
    @anonymous
    Harvard-Westlake school is an amalgam of Harvard School (an all boys school) and Westlake School (an all girls school). In 1981, they were still a decade away from merging. The all boys institution was called "Harvard School" at that time.

    Matt Weiner is mentally ill if he thinks Jews were a persecuted minority at Harvard School. There was a widespread assertion that Jewish enrollment was limited to 40%, because the allegedly antiSemitic administration didn't want Jews to dominate. (Nobody except Matt was mentally ill enough, or unobservant enough, to imagine that the number was much UNDER 40%, but there were angry assertions that it was capped at 40%, no more.)

    Well....a member of the class of 1981 decided to fact check this assertion, tallied up his class and found that it was upwards of 60% Jewish. That's right, Matt Weiner paranoically imagined himself to be a persecuted minority, in an environment where Jews were a SOLID MAJORITY, and dominated socially as well as numerically. And, I might add, there was significant anti-GENTILE bullying there. Those who struck back, were deemed "antisemites."

    I have nothing against Jews, but, these are the facts.

    Matt Weiner is mentally ill if he thinks Jews were a persecuted minority at Harvard School. There was a widespread assertion that Jewish enrollment was limited to 40%, because the allegedly antiSemitic administration didn’t want Jews to dominate. (Nobody except Matt was mentally ill enough, or unobservant enough, to imagine that the number was much UNDER 40%, but there were angry assertions that it was capped at 40%, no more.)

    News flash. Jews are ALWAYS a persecuted minority… even when they are the majority. They always punch up. Their actions and goals are always socially-aware and enlightened.* They are truly the light unto other nations. You don’t believe that? What are you, some sort of an anti-Semite?

    A Jewish administrator (and an admissions officer) at my Ivy League alma mater once ruminated rather openly in front me and several other staff members (and student workers) that both Jews and Asians were smart, but the Jews cared about the world while the Asians didn’t. That was one of his justifications for favoring dimmer Jewish applicants over brighters Asians.

    Mr. Sailer’s “People Liks Us” comment is right on the mark.

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  98. Marty T says:
    @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    Asians do complain a lot in this country. They have it pretty damn good, but mere overrepresentation in the Ivies isn’t enough. They should have Caltech-level dominance, according to Ron Unz’s analysis (which should embarrass his fellow Harvard grads for being so shoddy).

    As far as NYC goes, Stuyvesant will have to get a LOT less Asian before white rich people consider it for their kids.

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  99. Pat Casey says:
    @Alec Leamas

    Make blacks with average White IQs memorize ten logical fallacies per year for four years and I bet most of them would “win” against any Asian in a courtroom all else being equal.
     
    Blacks with average White IQs or slightly above average white IQs usually happen to be very emotionally intelligent, and if they drop heavy black accents/Ebonics can have a real facility with language. Asians tend to lag in these traits well behind their IQs. Of course the former is going to be a much better persuader of regular human beings than the latter.

    I once read a theory about Asian tolerance for monotony and tedium - viz, that it grew out of widespread rice cultivation throughout East Asia, which requires those traits in abundance. I wonder if anyone else has heard of this and if it has merit . . .

    It’s easy to imagine an Asian male losing his mind if some spirit put the power of leadership on him. He might run a mock.

    What impresses you about the blacks who for example right rap lyrics just for fun is their gift of lyrics charged with polysemous meanings per word. So dumb white guys write off a Nas for being puerile at the end of the day over lines like, My flow is poetry. That line goes quick and doesn’t get accented so that it can mean four things when you play with it. You gotta play with fundamentals. There’s an interesting biopic on Naz btw that makes a point of showcasing the Egyptian Book of the Dead that he grew up reading when they do the montage, and what that means is: Oh you think Jay-Z’s won? Go back and read my lyrics. For of course the big thing about those Egyptians is what the held happened when the the spells especially got engraved.

    I remember reading that rice theory around here some years back.

    Joyce learned his Irish from Patrick Pearse; I meant the Irish psyche not the sod or the sot.

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  100. Twinkie says:
    @Truth
    Twinkie, you screwed a white kid out of his spot 40 years ago. Tsk..tsk.

    Twinkie, you screwed a white kid out of his spot 40 years ago. Tsk..tsk.

    No, you, dimwit, I “screwed… out of his spot” a bright Jewish student who would have gone on to Harvard law school and become another humanitarian, pro-American mergers-and-acquisitions lawyer or management consultant in NYC with a profound reverence for the sacred emblems of our country and a deep respect for the ordinary – Christian – people in “flyover” country. So much so that he’d have lovingly told the latter how to live better and more correctly by funding that patriotic party, the Democrats to take over all institutions of power and influence in the society at large.

    Yeah, it was a tragedy and a great robbery.

    Instead, America got a race-traitor yellow man, who went around the world committing war crimes and murdering innocent Muslim peace activists, all the while giving aid and comfort to the anti-Semitic, black-hating KKK racists (aka “the Republican party” and the so-called conservatives), who even now is raising a brood of racist, homophobic children with toxic, evil ideology such as American sovereignty and Christianity.

    I should just commit Seppuku, but my life-hating medievalist death cult called the Catholic Church told me that was a bad idea, because it needs me to stay alive and screw America some more with my toxic ideology.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth



    Instead, America got a race-traitor yellow man, who went around the world committing war crimes and murdering innocent Muslim peace activists, all the while giving aid and comfort to the anti-Semitic, black-hating KKK racists (aka “the Republican party” and the so-called conservatives), who even now is raising a brood of racist, homophobic children with toxic, evil ideology such as American sovereignty and Christianity.

    I should just commit Seppuku, but my life-hating medievalist death cult called the Catholic Church told me that was a bad idea, because it needs me to stay alive and screw America some more with my toxic ideology.
     
    Yeah come to think of it, you have F-ed up enough for three lifetimes, but it's all good Dawg, you still my boy.
  101. @SPMoore8
    The War on Dairy (World War Cheese) will not be very successful, I don't think.

    I drink milk all the time and I also drink chocolate milk. Does this give me some post-racial cred?

    No, of course not. That would be cultural appropriation. “Can’t anybody here play this game?”

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  102. Twinkie says:

    Some serious points:

    1. Stuyvesant is not made up of Asian “grinds” and white well-balanced and creative geniuses. It is made up of Asian grinds and white grinds (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/nyregion/cram-schools-no-longer-just-an-asian-pursuit.html) – the kinds of kids whose parents cannot afford world-helping spring trips to exotic locales to build “character” and “leadership” (see no. 2 below).

    2. Although Stuyvesant HS might be cognitively elite, it is by no means elite in the social status sense. Not. Even. Close. It is not nor has it ever been so (never mind that it originally began as a vocational school for ethnic urchins in the area, hardly an auspicious origin story for an elite institution). Even 30-40 years ago, it was a pathway for bright middle and lower class students whose parents could not afford the real elite status prep schools (except, of course, reasonably bright, if not cognitively elite, NAM children who are more precious than hedge funds to such schools). Such elite parents – white or Asian – don’t send their children to the likes of Stuyvesant, Bronx Science or Brooklyn Tech.

    3. If one even casually peruses the 2017 data above, these are the respective percentages of “respective test takers who received an offer, by ethnicity”:

    Asian: 31.9%
    White: 28.1%
    Latino: 6.5%
    Black: 3.8%

    Play the “which two of these are not like the other two” game. The idea of a black-white alliance on this score is laughable given this rather simple, stark fact. Unless, of course, one is talking about black-Jewish alliance. But that kind of talk is evil anti-Semitism and racism, you know, straight out of that neo-Nazi character played by Michael Rappaport in the documentary education film “Higher Learning.”

    4. While I am glad that public schools such as Stuyvesant exists where smart Asian and white pupils in high black-Hispanic population areas can study in peace, I would never send my own children to one like it. It doesn’t teach the love of what is sacred and holy. It doesn’t teach courage, sacrifice, and camaraderie. It doesn’t teach patriotism. Despite its cognitively elite status, it is essentially a gateway to advanced vocational training (as future lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc.). It is not a breeding ground for those who are truly equipped to lead, and sacrifice for, the country at large.

    And frankly in the larger scheme of things (from a purely “practical” point of view), it is not all that important. It makes a frequent appearance on this blog for some reason (perhaps because of the “let’s bash the Asian ‘grinds’” angle), but there apparently isn’t that kind of obsessive coverage about schools that actually matter more in the power and status sense, such as Exeter, Andover, St. Albans or even Sidwell Friends. After all, that’s actually where the “right kind of people” send their children to be inculcated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NOTA
    The world is almost certainly made better by the graduates of the technical high schools, far more than from the graduates of the ruling-class high schools.
    , @Stationary Feast

    4. While I am glad that public schools such as Stuyvesant exists where smart Asian and white pupils in high black-Hispanic population areas can study in peace, I would never send my own children to one like it. It doesn’t teach the love of what is sacred and holy. It doesn’t teach courage, sacrifice, and camaraderie. It doesn’t teach patriotism.
     
    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?
  103. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anony
    Are you under the impression that Asians decided on and are in control of the entrance criteria to Stuyvesant, or anywhere else for that matter?

    “Are you under the impression that Asians decided on and are in control of the entrance criteria to Stuyvesant, or anywhere else for that matter?”

    No.

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  104. And frankly in the larger scheme of things (from a purely “practical” point of view), it is not all that important. It makes a frequent appearance on this blog for some reason (perhaps because of the “let’s bash the Asian ‘grinds’” angle), but there apparently isn’t that kind of obsessive coverage about schools that actually matter more in the power and status sense, such as Exeter, Andover, St. Albans or even Sidwell Friends. After all, that’s actually where the “right kind of people” send their children to be inculcated.

    Right. It would be instructive to figure out what’s going on at these schools.

    https://www.thestreet.com/story/13325695/15/top-us-private-schools-with-the-most-graduates-getting-into-ivy-league-universities.html

    It can’t all be a tale of legacy and money.

    Read More
    • Replies: @keuril

    It can’t all be a tale of legacy and money.
     
    Right, it's also partly a tale of cherrypicking the right sort of students, and having resources that attract them. Exeter, e.g., last year had three students who were recognized at the International Math Olympiad, including two gold medals as well as the top female scorer.
    https://www.exeter.edu/news/yuan-yao-’17-and-kevin-sun-’16-receive-gold-qi-qi-’17-silver-international-mathematical
    Once you get beyond the brainiacs, though, most of the admittees to top Ivies from these schools will likely be legacies and/or athletes in blueblood sports. If you're more of a garden variety world-beater hoping to get into Harvard, you're better off attending a boring public school where you can stand out more.
  105. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Alec Leamas
    Yes and no. University and College admissions are supposed to be choosing candidates with the highest aptitude to engage in the life of the mind. Usually grades will tell you something about that, as would standardized test scores that reliably measure intelligence.

    The problem with the Asian model in the U.S. is that drilling mathematics for 4 hours every night and gaming the standardized tests to an extreme degree doesn't really reveal much about the applicant's aptitude - they're more finished products at that point. The end is the learning, not the score - Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.

    There's also the issue of whether and to what degree non-Asians want to engage in a an arms race in which their children would be made into unidimensional, grade attaining automatons for a chance at an elite education. Most American parents want their talented kids to have experiences and sincere interests outside of hours of after school academic drilling - they want their smart kid to be the just OK shortstop on a mediocre high school baseball team, have a robust social life, or volunteer at Church for its own sake rather than resume building. There are life skills useful in academic and professional pursuits that can't be scored for analysis by an admissions officer.

    This is clearly a clash of cultures, where the insurgent Asians are gaming the system and forcing unwanted changes on the host culture, and a resultant backlash.

    Most American parents want their talented kids to have experiences and sincere interests outside of hours of after school academic drilling – they want their smart kid to be the just OK shortstop on a mediocre high school baseball team, have a robust social life, or volunteer at Church for its own sake rather than resume building. There are life skills useful in academic and professional pursuits that can’t be scored for analysis by an admissions officer.

    This is clearly a clash of cultures, where the insurgent Asians are gaming the system and forcing unwanted changes on the host culture, and a resultant backlash.

    I agree.

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  106. NOTA says:
    @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    This is the cover story, but my guess is that it amounts to a reimagining of the Jewish Quota for Asians.

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  107. NOTA says:
    @Twinkie
    Some serious points:

    1. Stuyvesant is not made up of Asian "grinds" and white well-balanced and creative geniuses. It is made up of Asian grinds and white grinds (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/nyregion/cram-schools-no-longer-just-an-asian-pursuit.html) - the kinds of kids whose parents cannot afford world-helping spring trips to exotic locales to build "character" and "leadership" (see no. 2 below).

    2. Although Stuyvesant HS might be cognitively elite, it is by no means elite in the social status sense. Not. Even. Close. It is not nor has it ever been so (never mind that it originally began as a vocational school for ethnic urchins in the area, hardly an auspicious origin story for an elite institution). Even 30-40 years ago, it was a pathway for bright middle and lower class students whose parents could not afford the real elite status prep schools (except, of course, reasonably bright, if not cognitively elite, NAM children who are more precious than hedge funds to such schools). Such elite parents - white or Asian - don't send their children to the likes of Stuyvesant, Bronx Science or Brooklyn Tech.

    3. If one even casually peruses the 2017 data above, these are the respective percentages of "respective test takers who received an offer, by ethnicity":

    Asian: 31.9%
    White: 28.1%
    Latino: 6.5%
    Black: 3.8%

    Play the "which two of these are not like the other two" game. The idea of a black-white alliance on this score is laughable given this rather simple, stark fact. Unless, of course, one is talking about black-Jewish alliance. But that kind of talk is evil anti-Semitism and racism, you know, straight out of that neo-Nazi character played by Michael Rappaport in the documentary education film "Higher Learning."

    4. While I am glad that public schools such as Stuyvesant exists where smart Asian and white pupils in high black-Hispanic population areas can study in peace, I would never send my own children to one like it. It doesn't teach the love of what is sacred and holy. It doesn't teach courage, sacrifice, and camaraderie. It doesn't teach patriotism. Despite its cognitively elite status, it is essentially a gateway to advanced vocational training (as future lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc.). It is not a breeding ground for those who are truly equipped to lead, and sacrifice for, the country at large.

    And frankly in the larger scheme of things (from a purely "practical" point of view), it is not all that important. It makes a frequent appearance on this blog for some reason (perhaps because of the "let's bash the Asian 'grinds'" angle), but there apparently isn't that kind of obsessive coverage about schools that actually matter more in the power and status sense, such as Exeter, Andover, St. Albans or even Sidwell Friends. After all, that's actually where the "right kind of people" send their children to be inculcated.

    The world is almost certainly made better by the graduates of the technical high schools, far more than from the graduates of the ruling-class high schools.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    I think we need more respect for Real Work as opposed to Fake Work.

    Real Work is doing real stuff. Plumbers do real work. Farmers do real work. Engineers do real work.

    But so many people don't do real work. They do BS work but think they are special cuz they got some fancy college degree and work at something 'creative'.

    Now, there are jobs where real brainpower is necessary.
    So, it seems so many jobs in cities are really about NOTHING.

    But BS jobs that pretend to be 'intelligent' get more respect than Real Work with real results.

    For those who work with minds, it's real enough in science and technology.
    As for social sciences, brain work is valuable ONLY IF you are honest about observing and analyzing reality. But due to PC, so much mindwork in social sciences is pure caca.

    We should create a culture that values Real Work.
  108. “. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.”

    Well, that’s your notion. It’s not the one originally driving the use of test scores as a proxy. The notion was that a high test score stood for an interesting person with lots of intelligence in a wide range of areas.

    In fact, Americans (and I mean Americans, not whites) are somewhat contemptuous of those who get good grades or high test scores because of endless hard work. When anyone brags about spending 20 hours a week studying, we think it’s awful and respect you less. (this is why Twinkie is all mad at me–he told what he saw as an inspiring story about his unending grind for good test scores and I told him that people like him are why we can’t have nice things here in America.)

    The test scores are a proxy, with the assumption built in that only a small number of Americans would study so much that they could do well on the tests while being a really boring person whose curiosity ran no farther than the question “Will this be on the test?” Chinese and Koreans are fatal to classroom ambiance, on average.

    Your paragraph explains exactly why Asians are discriminated against. We Americans talk about hard work and grades, but only for people who are below average. Above average, we want it achieved with near effortless. Hard work only comes in when you’ve proven your excellence and are now trying to apply it to some achievement-oriented objective.

    We never planned on a whole race of people who thought a test score was an achievement.

    Again, assimilation takes care of this provided that we stop admitting international students and cut immigration down to nearly nothing. It’s a cultural issue. And of course, culture or no, the IQ advantage will still hang around.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    this is why Twinkie is all mad at me–he told what he saw as an inspiring story about his unending grind for good test scores and I told him that people like him are why we can’t have nice things here in America
     
    I think Mr. Sailer calls this "retconning" of past history. I am not mad at you. The kind of people at whom I am mad are, say, the ones who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. And I do something about it when I find myself mad at people.

    I find you contemptible, because you are intellectually dishonest. And this ad hominem is a fine example of it. You make personal attacks and when the target responds, your retort is the "Of course, of course, it's all about you." But when your opponent wants to talk numbers and percentages and concepts such as mismatch that even bright junior high school students can grasp, you - with your allegedly above neurosurgeon IQ - disappear.

    We get it. You didn't work hard and "had a life" in high school instead, so now you are stuck teaching cram schools or babysitting tiger babies. It's unpleasant educating other people's children who might end up somewhere nicer where you or your own kid didn't or couldn't. Now you get your gratification appealing to a certain segment of the Alt-Right or HBD movement for whom white people being better than blacks is just science/HBD while Asians being better than whites in some things is just cheating. So keep making the lives of your students miserable as you once so deliciously boasted. In this life or next, you are going to be accountable for your deeds.
    , @dcite

    In fact, Americans (and I mean Americans, not whites) are somewhat contemptuous of those who get good grades or high test scores because of endless hard work.
     
    They are? As Thomas Edison said, invention is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
    That wasn't true for Tesla though, so there are exceptions.
  109. @Alec Leamas
    Yes and no. University and College admissions are supposed to be choosing candidates with the highest aptitude to engage in the life of the mind. Usually grades will tell you something about that, as would standardized test scores that reliably measure intelligence.

    The problem with the Asian model in the U.S. is that drilling mathematics for 4 hours every night and gaming the standardized tests to an extreme degree doesn't really reveal much about the applicant's aptitude - they're more finished products at that point. The end is the learning, not the score - Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.

    There's also the issue of whether and to what degree non-Asians want to engage in a an arms race in which their children would be made into unidimensional, grade attaining automatons for a chance at an elite education. Most American parents want their talented kids to have experiences and sincere interests outside of hours of after school academic drilling - they want their smart kid to be the just OK shortstop on a mediocre high school baseball team, have a robust social life, or volunteer at Church for its own sake rather than resume building. There are life skills useful in academic and professional pursuits that can't be scored for analysis by an admissions officer.

    This is clearly a clash of cultures, where the insurgent Asians are gaming the system and forcing unwanted changes on the host culture, and a resultant backlash.

    The end is the learning, not the score – Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.

    I’m mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything), but I think my issue with this claim is that if it was indeed true, then the test scores would be high in isolation of all other achievement. You wouldn’t be seeing higher saving rates, income, reduced crime rate, etc.

    But that’s not what is being seen really. The test scores aren’t really high because of simple grinding in a manner that excludes overall performance otherwise. Jack D has made this point before, and its worthwhile to note: being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don’t see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max

    I’m mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything)
     
    This seems like a bit of a cop-out, to me.

    This was a most insightful comment by commenter Paul Yarbles :


    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810109

    As I mentioned above -- as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington -- the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Huntington_Clash_of_Civilizations_chart.gif
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810180

    We don't want Sharia or Grindria law and culture in our lands. Is that so hard to understand?

    Qatar has one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, one of the highest personal savings rates, and low crime rates; we still don't want (rich) Qataris (or Chinese) to move to our lands and/or invest here and then proceed to build madrassas (or cram schools), and change/corrupt our culture and our way of life.

    , @Alec Leamas

    . . . being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don’t see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.
     
    There is some truth in this as far as it goes - but if one works to make a life instead of living to work and increase the family honor there are going to be limits. Grinders are probably good engineers, maybe good physicians and low-level research scientists, but in lots of walks of life success requires a mix of competence, hard work, and social skills, emotional intelligence, creative problem-solving, managing people, team building, leadership, strategy, planning, etc. Forcing bright and talented Western children into a 24/7, eighteen year cram session isn't going to nurture their talents and abilities, and would probably be deleterious to them.
    , @res
    I'm curious how much everyone here thinks the Asian grind conversation is pretty much a retread of 20th century conversations about Jews and academics? For example, take a look at this book page and consider how it would read replacing Jew with Asian and shifting the POV a few decades.

    P.S. I wish Google Books supported cut and paste.
  110. @Ed
    Fascinating that blacks have the lowest birth rates in the city. I suspect housing has something to do with it but need to compare with other locales.

    NYC has a long wait for public housing & securing a voucher is almost impossible in the city. It simply doesn't make sense to be a single mother with many kids in the city.

    While housing may explain why the 55% black abortion rate in New York City is higher than the 42% national black abortion rate, it is not the reason why blacks have the lowest birth rate in the city.

    The national birth rate is 13.2. The black birth rate is normally lower than the Hispanic birth rate. The birth rate for whites in New York City is abnormally high due to ultra-Orthodox Jews and perhaps “white” Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa. The abnormally high birth rate for Asians in New York City, 17.1, could also be explained by Muslims, Pakistan and Bangladesh in particular.

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  111. Twinkie says:
    @education realist
    ". It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change."

    Well, that's your notion. It's not the one originally driving the use of test scores as a proxy. The notion was that a high test score stood for an interesting person with lots of intelligence in a wide range of areas.

    In fact, Americans (and I mean Americans, not whites) are somewhat contemptuous of those who get good grades or high test scores because of endless hard work. When anyone brags about spending 20 hours a week studying, we think it's awful and respect you less. (this is why Twinkie is all mad at me--he told what he saw as an inspiring story about his unending grind for good test scores and I told him that people like him are why we can't have nice things here in America.)

    The test scores are a proxy, with the assumption built in that only a small number of Americans would study so much that they could do well on the tests while being a really boring person whose curiosity ran no farther than the question "Will this be on the test?" Chinese and Koreans are fatal to classroom ambiance, on average.

    Your paragraph explains exactly why Asians are discriminated against. We Americans talk about hard work and grades, but only for people who are below average. Above average, we want it achieved with near effortless. Hard work only comes in when you've proven your excellence and are now trying to apply it to some achievement-oriented objective.

    We never planned on a whole race of people who thought a test score was an achievement.

    Again, assimilation takes care of this provided that we stop admitting international students and cut immigration down to nearly nothing. It's a cultural issue. And of course, culture or no, the IQ advantage will still hang around.

    this is why Twinkie is all mad at me–he told what he saw as an inspiring story about his unending grind for good test scores and I told him that people like him are why we can’t have nice things here in America

    I think Mr. Sailer calls this “retconning” of past history. I am not mad at you. The kind of people at whom I am mad are, say, the ones who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. And I do something about it when I find myself mad at people.

    I find you contemptible, because you are intellectually dishonest. And this ad hominem is a fine example of it. You make personal attacks and when the target responds, your retort is the “Of course, of course, it’s all about you.” But when your opponent wants to talk numbers and percentages and concepts such as mismatch that even bright junior high school students can grasp, you – with your allegedly above neurosurgeon IQ – disappear.

    We get it. You didn’t work hard and “had a life” in high school instead, so now you are stuck teaching cram schools or babysitting tiger babies. It’s unpleasant educating other people’s children who might end up somewhere nicer where you or your own kid didn’t or couldn’t. Now you get your gratification appealing to a certain segment of the Alt-Right or HBD movement for whom white people being better than blacks is just science/HBD while Asians being better than whites in some things is just cheating. So keep making the lives of your students miserable as you once so deliciously boasted. In this life or next, you are going to be accountable for your deeds.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    We get it. You didn’t work hard and “had a life” in high school instead, so now you are stuck teaching cram schools or babysitting tiger babies. It’s unpleasant educating other people’s children who might end up somewhere nicer where you or your own kid didn’t or couldn’t. Now you get your gratification appealing to a certain segment of the Alt-Right or HBD movement for whom white people being better than blacks is just science/HBD while Asians being better than whites in some things is just cheating. So keep making the lives of your students miserable as you once so deliciously boasted. In this life or next, you are going to be accountable for your deeds.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6tIf8ZWSFc
    , @anonymous
    Spot on. I've seen this guy make resentful comments for years about Asian adolescents who he presumably makes a living tutoring. It's about him hating where he ended up in life.
  112. The test is not meritocratic. It was designed for a largely white test population, with far less competition. It was designed to give an advantage to outliers–people who were particularly good in math or verbal skills, with a very high score in one and an average score in the other. Higher scores are given for someone who gets 99th percentile in one topic and a below 50 percentile in the other.

    Now, back in the 70s, this mean that priority would be given to kids with high verbal scores OR high math scores, and then there’d be plenty of room for kids with high verbal AND high math scores, and so on.

    No one understood than in fifteen years or so, the system would be overrun with kids who spoke very little English but did enough prep (without any real improvement) enough to fake a 40th percentile score on verbal and then start Saturday classes in second grade to work math problems without any genuine understanding for 6-7 years in order to get a 99th percentile on the test. No one understood that kids with 90%ile scores in both subjects might not get into any of the top ranked schools, or that kids who didn’t speak or write fluent English would get higher scores than kids who both knew a lot of math and were capable of benefiting from focused Shakespeare studies. (Ironically, it’s now easier to get good grades in English than math at Stuyvesant–and not because the talent is stronger. Fewer kids take humanities courses, parents bitch mightily about grades, and few of the kids are any good at all.)

    At this point, I suspect a lot of the white kids who go to Stuyvesant are those who can get in without working that hard. Going to an 80% Asian school is pretty miserable, even if you have a good sense of humor.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    the system would be overrun with kids who spoke very little English but did enough prep (without any real improvement) enough to fake a 40th percentile score on verbal and then start Saturday classes in second grade to work math problems without any genuine understanding for 6-7 years in order to get a 99th percentile on the test.
     
    This is a complete nonsense. In my day, students who faked "a 40th percentile score on verbal" would have washed out of Dr. Irgang's AP American History class in a day. Indeed, people who faked a 40th percentile score on verbal wouldn't be getting 90th, 95th or 99th percentile in SAT Verbal a few years later. Ever hear of mismatch?

    Whites have a slightly higher SAT verbal average than Asian students in the U.S., but the interesting thing is the gap disappears as income rises. At the household income level of $70,000 (1995 dollars, I think), the verbal scores of Asians and whites are identical.

    And " work[ing] math problems without any genuine understanding..." Seriously? Are you still pushing that fantasy?
    , @res

    It was designed to give an advantage to outliers–people who were particularly good in math or verbal skills, with a very high score in one and an average score in the other. Higher scores are given for someone who gets 99th percentile in one topic and a below 50 percentile in the other.
     
    It is interesting that I see the exact same data and come to a different conclusion. To my thinking this test scoring is compressed at the top end (especially post-2016 if you look at the latest SAT equivalence tables) to give an advantage to the mid-range (or perhaps more accurately, to obscure how big a gulf there is). With the pre-1995 SAT one could argue that there was a bias towards exceptional verbal skills because the math ceiling was so much lower.

    The last sentence (higher is a comparative) is not particularly meaningful without a comparison example. What kind of relationship would you assign to students with relative balances of 99%V/50%M and 50%V/99%M? What balanced percentiles would you consider comparably desirable to each of those?

    For grins, lets do a hypothetical looking at 99/50 and 75/75 splits with 2014 SAT percentiles:
    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-crit-reading-math-writing-2014.pdf

    Percentile Math Verbal/CR
    99 780 760
    75 600 580
    50 500 510

    Giving composite scores of

    99%V/50%M 1260
    75%V/75%M 1180
    50%V/99%M 1290

    For reference an evenly numerically split 1260 would be 82/86 M/V percentiles.

    Which does argue for a small math bias and larger asymmetry bias by this metric. I think the difference between our views can be explained by me looking at equal ability (e.g. IQ) intervals rather than equal percentile intervals (this is a critical point, anyone have arguments for valuing one approach over the other?). Because of the shape of the normal curve the midrange percentiles tend to be lumped together given that the SAT means are defined as 500. Note that this could also be argued as a bias against 99.9% math skills because that can't be discerned from 99% as easily as the equivalent verbal skills given the lower ceiling for math (I'm guessing this effect is very relevant for Asians applying to elite colleges).

    It is unclear to me how overall college admissions should value these splits. I know who I would (and would not) pick for a literature or engineering department, but other majors might be unclear. The shape of the normal curve also implies that 75/75 is not the proper comparison split IMHO.

    It would be interesting to make this comparison for other incarnations of the SAT.

    P.S. Does anyone have data on how highly unbalanced Asian scores on the SAT correspond to later GRE scores? I would hypothesize that much of the disparity is late English learners (i.e. not intrinsic, which IMHO is incredibly important) and would be more muted in the GRE after four more years of intensive acculturation. I would really like to see evidence either way with same person comparisons (too much selection effect in going to grad school to compare overall averages).
    , @George
    I think you are overestimating the difficulty of the test. The 'reading' part of the test is at a true highschool level. The math is not really high school, but you probably have to get all the questions right. When I took the test there was a section on science trivia, do you know the difference between a proton and a photon type questions.

    See for yourself:
    http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/resources/testing/shsat.htm
    http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/701100A4-918F-4F2B-B592-860996626CA6/0/SHSAT_FAQ_SAMPLE_ITEMS_FINAL_v3.pdf

    " were capable of benefiting from focused Shakespeare studies" Is that really offered at Stuy High, but not elsewhere. The problem is you assume Stuy High is the pinnacle of NYC high schools. There are others, that take non-academic things into account that are probably better and more selective. I went to Stuyvesant but was not accepted into Hunter or Edward R Murrow, go figure. Again Stuyvesant is really just like a very good suburban HS, of which there are many in the US. The difference is you buy into HS with the purchase of real estate in the suburbs.

    Stuyvesant is not that good a school. And it does not really provide a student with the advantages imagine. You may have heard NYC is a very segregated place. If your kid's zoned HS is in a non black area, and you live more than an hour from Stuyvesant, your kid is probably better off at the local HS. The local HS probably offers calculus, and if the kid is really that smart, enroll him or her in a local college for advanced courses. Now if your kid is zoned for a majority black school you might want to take a shot at one of the specialized schools. Black majority HSs also offer calculus. The fewer number of academically talented students in typical black majority HSs means your kid will likely get special attention from the math science staff. Your kid will probably not be seriously assaulted. Your white kid might actually do better at a black majority HS than Stuyvesant.

    If a parent of an actual NYC student is reading this thread, find out how to get your kid into the program Martin Shkreli went to. That actually sound interesting and the future of top tier education.
  113. “Is anyone here saying it’s not a virtue?”

    I am. Said so just above, in fact. Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.
     
    Translation: I resent people who worked harder than I did and achieved more in life.

    Most Americans are very fair-minded and respect those who come to their achievements through hard work. Your idea that Americans somehow love those for whom things come effortlessly tells me that 1) you have no idea how much work geniuses actually do in their own fields and 2) you have little understanding of most of our fellow Americans.

    A friend of mine from college is a leading physicist. He is a certifiable genius - he smashes atoms for a living, as the saying goes. Although math that eludes you (and me, for that matter) comes very "effortlessly" to him, he works extremely hard at HIS level of mathematics and physics. The idea that the cognitive elite is made up of mediocre grinds and lazy, natural geniuses is stupid in the extreme. It is actually made up of genius grinds.

    As a corollary to sport, I have a friend who was a minor league baseball player. He worked extremely hard and was pretty good, but not good enough for the Major League. He found that there were naturally (genetically, if you will) gifted people who worked just as hard as he did. He realized that there was just no physical way for him to outcompete someone who worked just hard as he did yet had greater natural talent. There just weren't enough hours in a day to make up the deficit.

    As for what our fellow Americans think about hard work, some actor once said, "L.A. is all hype. New York is all talk. Chicago, Chicago is work." Although a superficial statement, to be fair, it does capture something of the cultural differences between the agricultural Midwest and the coastal areas. The taciturn Germans and Scandinavians who settled in the Midwest and their descendants indeed prize laconic, high work ethic. You have to, if you keep farm hours.
    , @CAL

    I am. Said so just above, in fact. Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.
     
    And Twinkie and Chieh fail to understand what you mean by that. Yes Americans appreciate hard work and focus. They don't appreciate an arms race in academic competition because of how it leads to an unbalanced life. There wasn't a problem when it was only a small number of outliers who were grinding their way through. Once large numbers of people do it though, it distorts the goal of the system.

    Until recently, most Americans viewed education as simply a starting point. One gets a good education to have a solid understanding of the basics and then goes out into the world to get one's real education. People with their heads in books 24/7 are suspect of being ignorant in ways that are often oblivious to the grinder types. The hard work and focus is only applied in one aspect of life often at the expense of other areas. As someone who had to study to get good grades, I appreciate the effort. However, in retrospect I have a better understanding of what people meant by having a balance in life.

    Non Academic Anecdote of Grinding
    I play in chess tournaments and am about average. In the past 10 years there has been a flood of Asian kids playing in the tournaments. Are most there because they want to be? For the most part no. They look zoned out and wanting to get the game over. It's like the piano/violin lessons. Their parents are mapping out their life and chess is one of those things. The problem though is the kids are good because they are taking lessons and being driven to study chess. Why is that a problem? The adults are getting frustrated with playing them. Going to a tournament and having 4 of your 5 opponents be under the age of 10 (this actually happened) is depressing. As an adult you can't devote the amount of time they are putting into it. You also can't relate to them as an adult when they're a kid. Plus they distort the rating system as they are underrated (long explanation why). So, adults are quiting and the ones playing are ones that won't be around as adults because they will be focused on other things and chess is just a checkbox their parents want them to check. If there was just the odd kid now and then, it wouldn't be an issue. But the numbers now have reached a critical mass.
  114. Twinkie says:
    @education realist
    "Is anyone here saying it’s not a virtue?"

    I am. Said so just above, in fact. Americans aren't terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.

    Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.

    Translation: I resent people who worked harder than I did and achieved more in life.

    Most Americans are very fair-minded and respect those who come to their achievements through hard work. Your idea that Americans somehow love those for whom things come effortlessly tells me that 1) you have no idea how much work geniuses actually do in their own fields and 2) you have little understanding of most of our fellow Americans.

    A friend of mine from college is a leading physicist. He is a certifiable genius – he smashes atoms for a living, as the saying goes. Although math that eludes you (and me, for that matter) comes very “effortlessly” to him, he works extremely hard at HIS level of mathematics and physics. The idea that the cognitive elite is made up of mediocre grinds and lazy, natural geniuses is stupid in the extreme. It is actually made up of genius grinds.

    As a corollary to sport, I have a friend who was a minor league baseball player. He worked extremely hard and was pretty good, but not good enough for the Major League. He found that there were naturally (genetically, if you will) gifted people who worked just as hard as he did. He realized that there was just no physical way for him to outcompete someone who worked just hard as he did yet had greater natural talent. There just weren’t enough hours in a day to make up the deficit.

    As for what our fellow Americans think about hard work, some actor once said, “L.A. is all hype. New York is all talk. Chicago, Chicago is work.” Although a superficial statement, to be fair, it does capture something of the cultural differences between the agricultural Midwest and the coastal areas. The taciturn Germans and Scandinavians who settled in the Midwest and their descendants indeed prize laconic, high work ethic. You have to, if you keep farm hours.

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    • Replies: @res

    As a corollary to sport, I have a friend who was a minor league baseball player. He worked extremely hard and was pretty good, but not good enough for the Major League. He found that there were naturally (genetically, if you will) gifted people who worked just as hard as he did. He realized that there was just no physical way for him to outcompete someone who worked just hard as he did yet had greater natural talent. There just weren’t enough hours in a day to make up the deficit.
     
    The thing I find most amazing (and instructive) is that I think the gap between that athlete and me is much larger than the gap between him and a major leaguer. To try to put numbers on it say I am average athletically (I can make arguments for +/- 1 SD IMHO, with realized results compatible with that, working hard, and some specific abilities). The minor leaguer is perhaps +3-4 SD (i.e. 1 in 400-15k) where the major leaguer is probably between 4SD and 5SD (1 in 2 million!). The dropoff in frequency by SD at that level is astonishing. FWIW my sense is one can make up 1 and maybe 2 SD of ability by working harder/exceptionally harder than someone else. At the center of the distribution this means it is quite easy to move up greatly in a percentile sense with hard work which is not true at the extreme.

    I think a three characteristic model is instructive here (as is its intellectual analog). The three characteristics are general athletic ability, sport specific ability, and work ethic. As a thought experiment, measure them with Z scores (SD) and sum them to get a total (yes, both steps are hugely arguable). Given the shape of the normal curve and an assumption that the three characteristics are largely uncorrelated (again, very arguable) it is most likely to see people with roughly equal skills at the highest levels. For example, 1 in 400 * 400 * 400 = 64e6 (3SD x 3) is more common than 20 * 400 * 15,000 = 120e6 (2,3,4 SD) and much more common than 3 * 400 * 2e6 = 2.4e9 (1,3,5 SD).

    What do others think about this way of looking at this?

    P.S. Frequencies approximated from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution#Standard_deviation_and_coverage
    , @RadicalCenter
    Great quote, but sadly, nowadays it would have to read, "Chicago, Chicago is Mexican." Which sometimes translates to lots of hard work, and sometimes ... not so much.
  115. FKA Max says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The end is the learning, not the score – Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.
     
    I'm mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything), but I think my issue with this claim is that if it was indeed true, then the test scores would be high in isolation of all other achievement. You wouldn't be seeing higher saving rates, income, reduced crime rate, etc.

    But that's not what is being seen really. The test scores aren't really high because of simple grinding in a manner that excludes overall performance otherwise. Jack D has made this point before, and its worthwhile to note: being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don't see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.

    I’m mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything)

    This seems like a bit of a cop-out, to me.

    This was a most insightful comment by commenter Paul Yarbles :

    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810109

    As I mentioned above — as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington — the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810180

    We don’t want Sharia or Grindria law and culture in our lands. Is that so hard to understand?

    Qatar has one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, one of the highest personal savings rates, and low crime rates; we still don’t want (rich) Qataris (or Chinese) to move to our lands and/or invest here and then proceed to build madrassas (or cram schools), and change/corrupt our culture and our way of life.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    As I mentioned above — as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington — the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization
     
    Dr. Huntington also separated civilizations and people. The two - though often overlapping - were not identical to him. He also believed in assimilation. Have you ever read "Who Are We?" He took a much more benign - even positive - view of Asian immigrants. To him the real danger was the large-scale Hispanic immigration (I, of course, take a much dimmer view of Chinese and Indian immigrants of today than he would have).

    This is a whole other topic, and I do not want to get into it, but his clash of civilizations theory had some significant holes (for example, intra-civilizational battles, particularly along the periphery of given civilizations are often far more vindictive and deadly than inter-civilizational wars). He was unjustly attacked by shrill leftists, but that didn't necessarily make him right about everything.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I did actually want to reply to you, but was later in the day.

    I've mentioned before that I don't have any objection to nativists who want to defend their culture or control immigration; and SPMoore8 has noted how its frustrating for any minority group to dominate the high status institutions, including universities.

    This is not a new rodeo to me, or us; much as the Jewish have been, Chinese have been the frequent target of pogroms. In Southeast Asia, despite being largely the authors of much prosperity there - at some point, it doesn't matter if you add to the country or not, if 10% of the population controls something like 80% of the wealth, it results in outrage.

    What I am I doing, ultimately, is no different from iSteve's readers in general, though: I notice. And if I feel that a policy or methodology is hypocritical, such as the subjective criteria acting effectively as quotas, I'll call it out. I don't have any issues persay with quotas with pro-native policies, I simply want it to be declared.

    I'm not a defender of unlimited migration from anywhere. Rate does matter. Policies can and should be made to encourage the will of the countrymen, rather than trying to invite the world; I'm second generation and I can make a fair argument against myself that my success is definitely at ultimate detriment of at least some natives.

    At the same time, its also identifying with the culture of the rule of law and fair play, and I'm essentially competing fairly and legally. In doing so, I'm showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic. A contrary and purely ethnically identified tribal desire for what is essentially a kinship-based culture has its merits, but in its extreme form, leads ultimately to essentially a corrupt and nepotistic culture which has never been particularly American*.It also leads to issues qualifying, for example, what my children are.

    Beyond that, I do not actually see how Sinic civilization is such a threat at least directly - China is not exactly known for expansionism, and I've noted before that some of her most ambitious dynastic military actions were inspired by Muslim officials. The lack of native universalist values leans against active intervention in the matters of others. The tendency toward siege mentality and self-isolation has been noted by many European writers.


    * An exaggeration in some ways; its notable that Jayman has mentioned that there are multiple cultures within the US. Some are much more clannish than others, and as a proposition nation, America has always exemplified contradictions. Such contradictions are straining now, obviously.

    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    Qatar has one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, one of the highest personal savings rates, and low crime rates;

     

    LOL

    Lauren Patterson, 24, from Kent, was sexually assaulted and stabbed and her burnt remains were left in a remote desert location by a local 'casual acquaintance' in October 2013
  116. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Race is just a social construct, so Damon should just tell himself that yellow students are blacks with yellow skin. Problem solved.

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  117. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @NOTA
    The world is almost certainly made better by the graduates of the technical high schools, far more than from the graduates of the ruling-class high schools.

    I think we need more respect for Real Work as opposed to Fake Work.

    Real Work is doing real stuff. Plumbers do real work. Farmers do real work. Engineers do real work.

    But so many people don’t do real work. They do BS work but think they are special cuz they got some fancy college degree and work at something ‘creative’.

    Now, there are jobs where real brainpower is necessary.
    So, it seems so many jobs in cities are really about NOTHING.

    But BS jobs that pretend to be ‘intelligent’ get more respect than Real Work with real results.

    For those who work with minds, it’s real enough in science and technology.
    As for social sciences, brain work is valuable ONLY IF you are honest about observing and analyzing reality. But due to PC, so much mindwork in social sciences is pure caca.

    We should create a culture that values Real Work.

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  118. Twinkie says:
    @education realist
    The test is not meritocratic. It was designed for a largely white test population, with far less competition. It was designed to give an advantage to outliers--people who were particularly good in math or verbal skills, with a very high score in one and an average score in the other. Higher scores are given for someone who gets 99th percentile in one topic and a below 50 percentile in the other.

    Now, back in the 70s, this mean that priority would be given to kids with high verbal scores OR high math scores, and then there'd be plenty of room for kids with high verbal AND high math scores, and so on.

    No one understood than in fifteen years or so, the system would be overrun with kids who spoke very little English but did enough prep (without any real improvement) enough to fake a 40th percentile score on verbal and then start Saturday classes in second grade to work math problems without any genuine understanding for 6-7 years in order to get a 99th percentile on the test. No one understood that kids with 90%ile scores in both subjects might not get into any of the top ranked schools, or that kids who didn't speak or write fluent English would get higher scores than kids who both knew a lot of math and were capable of benefiting from focused Shakespeare studies. (Ironically, it's now easier to get good grades in English than math at Stuyvesant--and not because the talent is stronger. Fewer kids take humanities courses, parents bitch mightily about grades, and few of the kids are any good at all.)

    At this point, I suspect a lot of the white kids who go to Stuyvesant are those who can get in without working that hard. Going to an 80% Asian school is pretty miserable, even if you have a good sense of humor.

    the system would be overrun with kids who spoke very little English but did enough prep (without any real improvement) enough to fake a 40th percentile score on verbal and then start Saturday classes in second grade to work math problems without any genuine understanding for 6-7 years in order to get a 99th percentile on the test.

    This is a complete nonsense. In my day, students who faked “a 40th percentile score on verbal” would have washed out of Dr. Irgang’s AP American History class in a day. Indeed, people who faked a 40th percentile score on verbal wouldn’t be getting 90th, 95th or 99th percentile in SAT Verbal a few years later. Ever hear of mismatch?

    Whites have a slightly higher SAT verbal average than Asian students in the U.S., but the interesting thing is the gap disappears as income rises. At the household income level of $70,000 (1995 dollars, I think), the verbal scores of Asians and whites are identical.

    And ” work[ing] math problems without any genuine understanding…” Seriously? Are you still pushing that fantasy?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stationary Feast

    And “work[ing] math problems without any genuine understanding…” Seriously? Are you still pushing that fantasy?
     
    I've done that plenty of times in math class before I finally internalized why the algorithms I perform work. If I were better at memorizing things I'd probably be able to do even more math that I don't really understand.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there are students out there who overrely on their memorization abilities to see them through math classes. Students who are capable of performing grade n math, but only understand grade n-2 math, say.
  119. Twinkie says:
    @FKA Max

    I’m mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything)
     
    This seems like a bit of a cop-out, to me.

    This was a most insightful comment by commenter Paul Yarbles :


    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810109

    As I mentioned above -- as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington -- the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Huntington_Clash_of_Civilizations_chart.gif
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810180

    We don't want Sharia or Grindria law and culture in our lands. Is that so hard to understand?

    Qatar has one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, one of the highest personal savings rates, and low crime rates; we still don't want (rich) Qataris (or Chinese) to move to our lands and/or invest here and then proceed to build madrassas (or cram schools), and change/corrupt our culture and our way of life.

    As I mentioned above — as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington — the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization

    Dr. Huntington also separated civilizations and people. The two – though often overlapping – were not identical to him. He also believed in assimilation. Have you ever read “Who Are We?” He took a much more benign – even positive – view of Asian immigrants. To him the real danger was the large-scale Hispanic immigration (I, of course, take a much dimmer view of Chinese and Indian immigrants of today than he would have).

    This is a whole other topic, and I do not want to get into it, but his clash of civilizations theory had some significant holes (for example, intra-civilizational battles, particularly along the periphery of given civilizations are often far more vindictive and deadly than inter-civilizational wars). He was unjustly attacked by shrill leftists, but that didn’t necessarily make him right about everything.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Personally, I feel that his ``Clash of Civilizations'' theory/framework has aged extremely well. There is, however , the possibility that his theory so greatly influenced world leaders, that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is a rumor, for example, that Putin invaded eastern Ukraine because he believed/agreed with Huntington's analysis, that it is a ``cleft country,'' which will eventually/is destined to brake apart along cultural/civilizational lines.

    But you are correct, that he, for example, does not distinguish between Protestant and Catholic culture within Western Civilization, which is a bit annoying to me, because I feel this distinction has extreme significance (as you will see and read, if you browse through my commenting history here at the Unz Review); he just uses the generic ``Christian,'' and even calls the U.S. a traditionally ``Christian'' country, when it is clearly a traditionally and historically Protestant county and culture. Very, very annoying to me, because it gives the Catholic Church immense power, cover, and protection in the U.S. for all kinds of nefarious activities, e.g., advocating for open borders towards Latin America, because they are ``Christians'' just like us.

    I also wanted to add, that I admire traditional Chinese culture. I have been studying Feng Shui for over 15+ years now.

    What we see today as Sinic/Chinese culture/civilization is really the Chinese Communist Party civilization/culture and not traditional Chinese civilization/culture, in my opinion. However, most Chinese coming over here to the U.S. have the Chinese Communist Party/Social Darwinist/cram school mindset, instead of the Feng Shui mindset.

    Maybe, if Sinic Civilization was more based on Feng Shui principles again, like in Hong Kong and in Taiwan, it would be more compatible and have less of an adversarial relationship with Western Civilization? I think/believe so.

    The same could be said about Islamic Civilization. If it was more based on the Sufi tradition, instead of the Arab/Wahhabi tradition, things would probably go more smoothly between our civilizations, cultures, and peoples.

    But we need to be realistic, and face the reality/facts, that this is currently most decidedly not the case, unfortunately. But things can change. Hope dies last.

  120. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Damon Hewitt is a classic example of peddler of pontificatese.

    His interest and demand are very simple: “I’m black and I want more blacks in this nice school.”
    That’s about it.

    But because US is supposed to be about ‘high-minded principles’, he drags out bunch of cliches about ‘equality’ and ‘justice’ and blah blah to justify what is nothing but racial tribalism.

    I mean if blacks were over-represented at Stuyv, would he be bitching?

    I’d like to see more Candidism. Be candid about what you really want. Principles are dead.

    Same with immigration. All this stuff about ‘huddle masses’, ‘inclusion’, ‘diversity’, and etc. are so much crap. No, non-whites want to come to white nations for goodies. It’s not high-minded. It’s like animals come to human habitats for food.
    If white nations were dirt-poor, would non-whites be lining up to come to them? NO.
    Just like animals go where the food is, people go where the good stuff is.
    That is it. They are not dreamers but feeders, scavengers, hunters, and/or parasites.

    We need an organicist explanation of human behavior.
    Indeed, these ‘principles’ are mere weapons or instruments used by organisms to gain advantage. Among whites, their interpretation of principles had a binding effect of trust and cooperation.
    For non-whites, their twist on principles has a paralyzing effect on whites via ‘white guilt’. It has a ‘chemical’ sting that neutralizes white defense and counter-aggression against invaders.

    Via candidism, it’s about time we flipped all the hidden cards on the table and revealed what EVERY SIDE Is really after.

    Non-whites wanna come to white nations for better material lives. That’s it.
    Jews want more diversity to play divide-and-conquer among goyim. It is about power and control.
    White patriots oppose immigration because it will reduce white power.
    White cucks go with immigration because, as opportunists, they will be rewarded as collaborators.
    White progs push immigration because they’re addicted to virtue-signaling as a narcotic. Pleasure principle. Also, their minds have been stung with PC chemicals that have turned them cancerously against their own race.

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  121. sabril says:
    @Marina
    The impression I get is that the purpose of the Ivies is to try and pick the next generation's elite while maintaining certain kinds of large university amenities. This is different from the most talented, intelligent, high scoring or even well-rounded mix of interesting American young people. This is why they ask where your parents went to college and where they work, even though this should be irrelevant.

    At my prep school, probably half the HYP admissions were for students who met the needs of the school at that specific time. I knew someone who got into Harvard because she played the right position in the right team sport and their current player in that position was graduating. She had good but not spectacular grades, but basically, she got lucky. If she'd been six months younger and a grade lower in school and otherwise identical, she never would have gotten in. I know someone who got into an Ivy because the music program needed a certain instrumentalist and he had good grades and was excellent at that instrument. Again, bright and talented and he probably had no problem doing well in the coursework, but he was far from the brightest, most interesting or well rounded kid that year.

    Then there will always be a sport for the Obama/Clinton/Bush/Trump children and there will probably always be slots for the children of foreign (including Asian) leaders and royals. Same thing for the kids of business and some entertainment elites. Whites from outside the coasts and especially outside cities will be very underrepresented. Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren't elite. Deng Xiaopeng's kid is going to get into Harvard over the brightest, most interesting, well rounded Asian American who is a three sport varsity athlete and academic superstar, but then Chelsea Clinton would get in over the white version of this kid too.

    Then there are a few slots for the genuine geniuses: the 17 year old who is obviously a national superstar in field X or whatever. Then there are the AA admits. The legacies or rich kids that got a thumb on the scale. At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.

    At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.

    I agree, I think the main backstop is that elite colleges don’t want to slide into a situation where another CCNY emerges, i.e. some public school sets up a selective program; welcomes smart middle class white kids; and starts churning out high achievers to the point where it gets a lot of attention and undermines the reputations of the elite colleges.

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  122. eah says:

    How about Whites ‘teaming up’ to stop more Asian immigration? — to cut to the chase.

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  123. keuril says:
    @PiltdownMan

    And frankly in the larger scheme of things (from a purely “practical” point of view), it is not all that important. It makes a frequent appearance on this blog for some reason (perhaps because of the “let’s bash the Asian ‘grinds’” angle), but there apparently isn’t that kind of obsessive coverage about schools that actually matter more in the power and status sense, such as Exeter, Andover, St. Albans or even Sidwell Friends. After all, that’s actually where the “right kind of people” send their children to be inculcated.
     
    Right. It would be instructive to figure out what's going on at these schools.

    https://www.thestreet.com/story/13325695/15/top-us-private-schools-with-the-most-graduates-getting-into-ivy-league-universities.html

    It can't all be a tale of legacy and money.

    It can’t all be a tale of legacy and money.

    Right, it’s also partly a tale of cherrypicking the right sort of students, and having resources that attract them. Exeter, e.g., last year had three students who were recognized at the International Math Olympiad, including two gold medals as well as the top female scorer.

    https://www.exeter.edu/news/yuan-yao-’17-and-kevin-sun-’16-receive-gold-qi-qi-’17-silver-international-mathematical

    Once you get beyond the brainiacs, though, most of the admittees to top Ivies from these schools will likely be legacies and/or athletes in blueblood sports. If you’re more of a garden variety world-beater hoping to get into Harvard, you’re better off attending a boring public school where you can stand out more.

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  124. CAL says:
    @education realist
    "Is anyone here saying it’s not a virtue?"

    I am. Said so just above, in fact. Americans aren't terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.

    I am. Said so just above, in fact. Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.

    And Twinkie and Chieh fail to understand what you mean by that. Yes Americans appreciate hard work and focus. They don’t appreciate an arms race in academic competition because of how it leads to an unbalanced life. There wasn’t a problem when it was only a small number of outliers who were grinding their way through. Once large numbers of people do it though, it distorts the goal of the system.

    Until recently, most Americans viewed education as simply a starting point. One gets a good education to have a solid understanding of the basics and then goes out into the world to get one’s real education. People with their heads in books 24/7 are suspect of being ignorant in ways that are often oblivious to the grinder types. The hard work and focus is only applied in one aspect of life often at the expense of other areas. As someone who had to study to get good grades, I appreciate the effort. However, in retrospect I have a better understanding of what people meant by having a balance in life.

    Non Academic Anecdote of Grinding
    I play in chess tournaments and am about average. In the past 10 years there has been a flood of Asian kids playing in the tournaments. Are most there because they want to be? For the most part no. They look zoned out and wanting to get the game over. It’s like the piano/violin lessons. Their parents are mapping out their life and chess is one of those things. The problem though is the kids are good because they are taking lessons and being driven to study chess. Why is that a problem? The adults are getting frustrated with playing them. Going to a tournament and having 4 of your 5 opponents be under the age of 10 (this actually happened) is depressing. As an adult you can’t devote the amount of time they are putting into it. You also can’t relate to them as an adult when they’re a kid. Plus they distort the rating system as they are underrated (long explanation why). So, adults are quiting and the ones playing are ones that won’t be around as adults because they will be focused on other things and chess is just a checkbox their parents want them to check. If there was just the odd kid now and then, it wouldn’t be an issue. But the numbers now have reached a critical mass.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Very interesting to hear about this phenomenon in chess, an area I know almost nothing about. Thank you.
  125. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.
     
    Maybe not you personally, but some of you are. How many Asians in America are Democrat voters or ‘Asian Conservatives’ ? Probably too many for whites who like living in a white country.

    Asians were actually, until fairly recently, majority Republican voters. The recent surge of Asian SJWs is incomprehensible to me, and extremely annoying, as it is largely self-destructive.

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  126. @FKA Max

    I’m mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything)
     
    This seems like a bit of a cop-out, to me.

    This was a most insightful comment by commenter Paul Yarbles :


    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810109

    As I mentioned above -- as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington -- the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Huntington_Clash_of_Civilizations_chart.gif
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810180

    We don't want Sharia or Grindria law and culture in our lands. Is that so hard to understand?

    Qatar has one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, one of the highest personal savings rates, and low crime rates; we still don't want (rich) Qataris (or Chinese) to move to our lands and/or invest here and then proceed to build madrassas (or cram schools), and change/corrupt our culture and our way of life.

    I did actually want to reply to you, but was later in the day.

    I’ve mentioned before that I don’t have any objection to nativists who want to defend their culture or control immigration; and SPMoore8 has noted how its frustrating for any minority group to dominate the high status institutions, including universities.

    This is not a new rodeo to me, or us; much as the Jewish have been, Chinese have been the frequent target of pogroms. In Southeast Asia, despite being largely the authors of much prosperity there – at some point, it doesn’t matter if you add to the country or not, if 10% of the population controls something like 80% of the wealth, it results in outrage.

    What I am I doing, ultimately, is no different from iSteve’s readers in general, though: I notice. And if I feel that a policy or methodology is hypocritical, such as the subjective criteria acting effectively as quotas, I’ll call it out. I don’t have any issues persay with quotas with pro-native policies, I simply want it to be declared.

    I’m not a defender of unlimited migration from anywhere. Rate does matter. Policies can and should be made to encourage the will of the countrymen, rather than trying to invite the world; I’m second generation and I can make a fair argument against myself that my success is definitely at ultimate detriment of at least some natives.

    At the same time, its also identifying with the culture of the rule of law and fair play, and I’m essentially competing fairly and legally. In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic. A contrary and purely ethnically identified tribal desire for what is essentially a kinship-based culture has its merits, but in its extreme form, leads ultimately to essentially a corrupt and nepotistic culture which has never been particularly American*.It also leads to issues qualifying, for example, what my children are.

    Beyond that, I do not actually see how Sinic civilization is such a threat at least directly – China is not exactly known for expansionism, and I’ve noted before that some of her most ambitious dynastic military actions were inspired by Muslim officials. The lack of native universalist values leans against active intervention in the matters of others. The tendency toward siege mentality and self-isolation has been noted by many European writers.

    * An exaggeration in some ways; its notable that Jayman has mentioned that there are multiple cultures within the US. Some are much more clannish than others, and as a proposition nation, America has always exemplified contradictions. Such contradictions are straining now, obviously.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic
     
    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer's parlance of [they should] git gud!

    The notion of naked competition is not a foreign concept, and as she might hint at, pretty widespread even in video games and entertainment. Its essentially a large part of universal, modern culture.

    Indeed, even "grind" culture isn't really unique to Asia. Its much more universal to Confucian cultures, but as commentators to Amy Chua's Tiger Mom book have noted, its always been part of some American elites. The opposite notion of "success should come without work" was mentioned by Orwell as the fading British ideal, one that did not survive WW2 and was struggling even before that.

    , @RadicalCenter
    China's not known for expansionism? How about Tibet and East Turkestan ("Xinjiang")?

    How about its attempts to maintain control over Mongolia (meaning the current independent country, not the Inner Mongolia region of China)?
  127. carol says:
    @Gene Su
    Anyone who thinks that Charles Murray a rank, nasty little racist is either an idiot or inattentive. Coming Apart is about the white underclass. He is more frightened that whites will sink to the level of blacks. He has seen it in Britain.

    It seems that if anyone writes a book pointing out the problems of the black underclass, they are immediately called a racist even if their work portrays blacks in a sympathetic light. Daniel Moynihan was called a racist but he wrote that the disintegration of the black family was due to centuries of racism (a common liberal nostrum). I bet that if Thomas Sowell was a white Southerner and wrote Black Rednecks and White Liberals in the sixties, he would have been branded a racist.

    Murray also thinks the white underclass is so useless that we may as well put them on a guaranteed minimum income. He may be correct but putting them on the dole will surely make it so.

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    • Replies: @res
    If Murray thinks the white underclass is useless I wonder what his candid thoughts would be about the other underclasses.

    Agreed about "surely make it so."
  128. @Daniel Chieh
    I did actually want to reply to you, but was later in the day.

    I've mentioned before that I don't have any objection to nativists who want to defend their culture or control immigration; and SPMoore8 has noted how its frustrating for any minority group to dominate the high status institutions, including universities.

    This is not a new rodeo to me, or us; much as the Jewish have been, Chinese have been the frequent target of pogroms. In Southeast Asia, despite being largely the authors of much prosperity there - at some point, it doesn't matter if you add to the country or not, if 10% of the population controls something like 80% of the wealth, it results in outrage.

    What I am I doing, ultimately, is no different from iSteve's readers in general, though: I notice. And if I feel that a policy or methodology is hypocritical, such as the subjective criteria acting effectively as quotas, I'll call it out. I don't have any issues persay with quotas with pro-native policies, I simply want it to be declared.

    I'm not a defender of unlimited migration from anywhere. Rate does matter. Policies can and should be made to encourage the will of the countrymen, rather than trying to invite the world; I'm second generation and I can make a fair argument against myself that my success is definitely at ultimate detriment of at least some natives.

    At the same time, its also identifying with the culture of the rule of law and fair play, and I'm essentially competing fairly and legally. In doing so, I'm showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic. A contrary and purely ethnically identified tribal desire for what is essentially a kinship-based culture has its merits, but in its extreme form, leads ultimately to essentially a corrupt and nepotistic culture which has never been particularly American*.It also leads to issues qualifying, for example, what my children are.

    Beyond that, I do not actually see how Sinic civilization is such a threat at least directly - China is not exactly known for expansionism, and I've noted before that some of her most ambitious dynastic military actions were inspired by Muslim officials. The lack of native universalist values leans against active intervention in the matters of others. The tendency toward siege mentality and self-isolation has been noted by many European writers.


    * An exaggeration in some ways; its notable that Jayman has mentioned that there are multiple cultures within the US. Some are much more clannish than others, and as a proposition nation, America has always exemplified contradictions. Such contradictions are straining now, obviously.

    In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!

    The notion of naked competition is not a foreign concept, and as she might hint at, pretty widespread even in video games and entertainment. Its essentially a large part of universal, modern culture.

    Indeed, even “grind” culture isn’t really unique to Asia. Its much more universal to Confucian cultures, but as commentators to Amy Chua’s Tiger Mom book have noted, its always been part of some American elites. The opposite notion of “success should come without work” was mentioned by Orwell as the fading British ideal, one that did not survive WW2 and was struggling even before that.

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!
     

    You're married to Reba McEntire?
    , @FKA Max

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!
     
    If I remember correctly, you mentioned in one of your earlier comments that your wife is French-Canadian, right?

    If this indeed is the case, I assume, that she is Roman-Catholic, right?

    If she is not Roman-Catholic, please disregard the following:

    Roman-Catholics generally are not known to be great lovers, defenders, and protectors of historically and traditionally WASP (and other Northern European-Protestant) cultures and countries, so she might not be the ideal person to ask for advice and feedback on this particular topic:

    Canada is rapidly becoming a Catholic nation because of this policy, and northern New England is being transformed by the Catholic overflow from Canada.
    French Catholic Canada is winning what the French Canadians call la revanche des herceaux, the revenge of the cradles.
    [...]
    Well, if you read their papers, where they point out Boston, that that’s what had happened in Boston in Massachusetts. They had simply out-bred the Protestants and they’re — they — in Boston in Massachusetts they have control.
    [...]
    James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. As a consequence, Boston stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/the-reality-of-red-subversion/#comment-1699584

    Let me emphasize here that the restrictionists of Congress do not claim that the "Nordic" race, or even the Anglo-Saxon race, is the best race in the world. Let us concede, in all fairness that the Czech is a more sturdy laborer … that the Jew is the best businessman in the world, and that the Italian has … a spiritual exaltation and an artistic creative sense which the Nordic rarely attains. Nordics need not be vain about their own qualifications. It well behooves them to be humble.

    What we do claim is that the northern European and particularly Anglo-Saxons made this country. Oh, yes; the others helped. But … [t]hey came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it, and they have not yet greatly changed it.

    We are determined that they shall not … It is a good country. It suits us. And what we assert is that we are not going to surrender it to somebody else or allow other people, no matter what their merits, to make it something different. If there is any changing to be done, we will do it ourselves."[5] -Cong. Rec., April 8, 1924, 5922
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_N._Vaile
    , @Stationary Feast

    git gud
     
    Ah, gamer parlance!

    The following also seems apropos: "anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard."

    At any rate, what seems to be at issue is the population of asians whose abilities and in-class interestingness are misoverestimated by usual college admissions techniques. None of my asian friends were, or are, boring grinds, but I can imagine that quite a few are (at least while they're being shoved into it by their parents).
  129. @Daniel Chieh

    The end is the learning, not the score – Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.
     
    I'm mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything), but I think my issue with this claim is that if it was indeed true, then the test scores would be high in isolation of all other achievement. You wouldn't be seeing higher saving rates, income, reduced crime rate, etc.

    But that's not what is being seen really. The test scores aren't really high because of simple grinding in a manner that excludes overall performance otherwise. Jack D has made this point before, and its worthwhile to note: being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don't see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.

    . . . being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don’t see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.

    There is some truth in this as far as it goes – but if one works to make a life instead of living to work and increase the family honor there are going to be limits. Grinders are probably good engineers, maybe good physicians and low-level research scientists, but in lots of walks of life success requires a mix of competence, hard work, and social skills, emotional intelligence, creative problem-solving, managing people, team building, leadership, strategy, planning, etc. Forcing bright and talented Western children into a 24/7, eighteen year cram session isn’t going to nurture their talents and abilities, and would probably be deleterious to them.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    but in lots of walks of life success requires a mix of competence, hard work, and social skills...
     
    The results of that are self-evident, though. East Asians are generally not hired for managerial or sales positions; white Americans who are hired for such positions do not necessarily have more impressive credentials.

    Honestly, in my experience, most functional companies do not overtly focus themselves on degrees and certainly don't for senior level positions - those are basically chosen hopefully from good evaluation of the candidate's skills based on prior experience, or more often, out of some form of networking and nepotism. I used to do a lot of job hopping before I engaged on my current career; not once did anyone put much thought in my college experience.

    I don't think that this forces Western children into cram sessions, so as long as credentialism is not the law of the land where hiring is taking place. And if credentialism becomes the law of the land, there are much larger problems about the bureaucratic hell that has emerged.

  130. Johnny B. says:
    @SPMoore8
    The "white people" who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all "Americans". And I am living testimony to this, since my family has been marrying out in this country for over 200 years (and yes I have all of Europe covered).

    On the other hand we have failed to assimilate our African sourced population, and while I expect we will eventually absorb our Latino, Muslim/Arab, East Asian, and South Asian populations it will be a lot harder to do so if they keep streaming into the country unchecked and if each of these groups seeks to establish their own group privileges.

    All white ethnic groups have not seamlessly assimilated into the Anglo-American culture. New York is a perfect example of this. You have Catholic Southern European, Orthodox Jewish, and Orthodox Eastern European enclaves.

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    • Agree: rw95
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I've noticed that, too, ports of entry tend to have people who cling the longest to the old ways. But heavily majority Dutch, Czech, Polish (e.g.) communities still exist in pockets around the country. And yet among New Yorkers I know, there has been a lot of outmarriage among Italians, Poles, etc. in the past 40-50 years. But that doesn't change my main point. Assimilation is what makes the USA work.
    , @RadicalCenter
    The vast, and I mean VAST majority of "Catholic Southern European" Americans do not live in such enclaves, and they are thoroughly long assimilated into Anglo-American culture. Same for Americans of Slavic / Eastern European descent.

    There may be no white European group of any substantial numbers in the USA that has refused to failed to assimilate thoroughly. (No, I'm not counting Middle Eastern or North African people.)

  131. Pericles says:
    @Anonymous
    "But isn’t the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?"

    Generally yes, but I think character should matter. Some people with ability are jerks. If possible, why not weed them out? Of course, this is easier said than done. Or, maybe some schools should be based solely on test scores and others could be based on a broader range of criteria, as has traditionally been the case with top American universities (before affirmative action, diversity and multiculturalism went into overdrive). I'd be interested in seeing which would do better, assuming that the one with the broader range didn't use it as an excuse for affirmative action, but instead used it to include strengths (such as various character traits) not measured by standardized tests.

    Generally yes, but I think character should matter. Some people with ability are jerks. If possible, why not weed them out?

    Well, that would be anti-semitic.

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  132. @Alec Leamas

    . . . being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don’t see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.
     
    There is some truth in this as far as it goes - but if one works to make a life instead of living to work and increase the family honor there are going to be limits. Grinders are probably good engineers, maybe good physicians and low-level research scientists, but in lots of walks of life success requires a mix of competence, hard work, and social skills, emotional intelligence, creative problem-solving, managing people, team building, leadership, strategy, planning, etc. Forcing bright and talented Western children into a 24/7, eighteen year cram session isn't going to nurture their talents and abilities, and would probably be deleterious to them.

    but in lots of walks of life success requires a mix of competence, hard work, and social skills…

    The results of that are self-evident, though. East Asians are generally not hired for managerial or sales positions; white Americans who are hired for such positions do not necessarily have more impressive credentials.

    Honestly, in my experience, most functional companies do not overtly focus themselves on degrees and certainly don’t for senior level positions – those are basically chosen hopefully from good evaluation of the candidate’s skills based on prior experience, or more often, out of some form of networking and nepotism. I used to do a lot of job hopping before I engaged on my current career; not once did anyone put much thought in my college experience.

    I don’t think that this forces Western children into cram sessions, so as long as credentialism is not the law of the land where hiring is taking place. And if credentialism becomes the law of the land, there are much larger problems about the bureaucratic hell that has emerged.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anarchyst
    Your comment that functional companies do not rely on the "college degree" does not pan out in the real world. especially in the USA.
    You see, with the abolition of aptitude tests, due to a Supreme Court decision (Griggs v. Duke Power), which was made due to "disparate impact" on (certain) minorities, it is now illegal to utilize aptitude tests to determine suitability for an employment position.
    Hence, the "college degree" became the "gatekeeper"...as flawed as it is. There are many positions that would ordinarily not require a "college degree", but due to this flawed Supreme Court decision, the rest is history.
    However, some enlightened employers are finally "seeing the light" and do realize that a college degree is no guarantee of employment suitability...
  133. Flemur says:

    This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity.

    Shocking! I’m shocked!

    “Are Tests Biased Against Students Who Don’t Give A Shit?”

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  134. res says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The end is the learning, not the score – Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.
     
    I'm mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything), but I think my issue with this claim is that if it was indeed true, then the test scores would be high in isolation of all other achievement. You wouldn't be seeing higher saving rates, income, reduced crime rate, etc.

    But that's not what is being seen really. The test scores aren't really high because of simple grinding in a manner that excludes overall performance otherwise. Jack D has made this point before, and its worthwhile to note: being well prepared, working hard, and being focused is useful not only for testing purposes, but for a number of other job aptitudes.

    So, no, I don't see it as particularly gaming the system in any greater way than it was intended. That it can cause a backlash is not surprising, but its not really any different from what might be expected from a job holder later in life.

    I’m curious how much everyone here thinks the Asian grind conversation is pretty much a retread of 20th century conversations about Jews and academics? For example, take a look at this book page and consider how it would read replacing Jew with Asian and shifting the POV a few decades.

    P.S. I wish Google Books supported cut and paste.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Deeply amusing, and thanks for sharing. I've noted the similarities of Jews and the Chinese immigrant community before, especially in directed ethnic violence against us, such as in Indonesia and Malaysia.

    That there's a certain backlash is pretty inevitable, for better or worse.

    I particularly liked the reference to the Jewish there with "reputation as academic grinds." Quite fitting.

    , @Stationary Feast
    That's basically Thomas Sowell's "Are Jews Generic?", an essay in Black Rednecks and White Liberals.
  135. anarchyst says:
    @Alec Leamas
    Yes and no. University and College admissions are supposed to be choosing candidates with the highest aptitude to engage in the life of the mind. Usually grades will tell you something about that, as would standardized test scores that reliably measure intelligence.

    The problem with the Asian model in the U.S. is that drilling mathematics for 4 hours every night and gaming the standardized tests to an extreme degree doesn't really reveal much about the applicant's aptitude - they're more finished products at that point. The end is the learning, not the score - Asians tend to prize the score and leave the learning as a byproduct.

    There's also the issue of whether and to what degree non-Asians want to engage in a an arms race in which their children would be made into unidimensional, grade attaining automatons for a chance at an elite education. Most American parents want their talented kids to have experiences and sincere interests outside of hours of after school academic drilling - they want their smart kid to be the just OK shortstop on a mediocre high school baseball team, have a robust social life, or volunteer at Church for its own sake rather than resume building. There are life skills useful in academic and professional pursuits that can't be scored for analysis by an admissions officer.

    This is clearly a clash of cultures, where the insurgent Asians are gaming the system and forcing unwanted changes on the host culture, and a resultant backlash.

    Another aspect to the “Asian model” is the quest to be technically accurate, when it comes to music. There are many talented Asians who have taken up the piano or violin. Other instruments, such as guitar or wind instruments are generally frowned upon. Their performances are technically accurate, but they have no “soul”. It seems that, in their quest for technical accuracy, something gets “lost”…you see, speaking as a professional musician, a little “slop” (variation) in the performance adds to the human aspect of music. The little imperfections, straying off the sheet music actually adds to the performance…something that Asians generally do not have…
    Just my two cents…

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    • Agree: Whoever
    • Replies: @Anon

    Other instruments, such as guitar or wind instruments are generally frowned upon.
     
    You mean like these?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjm1-fHeUQ8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc3L-mONqVk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA0ysAWPPRo
  136. @Thomas
    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another "white bread" food).

    "Jordan Peele explains 'Get Out's' creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate," http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.
    ...
    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.
     
    I've been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as "the original white privilege" with this meme kicking around.

    Fake News or NYT editorial ?

    Slander Properly Low Center just issued their latest What The Fatwa ? denouncing major chocolate milk producer for a cultural insensitivity and appropriation of body of Brown Rabbit wearing a large scarlet blue “N” on a collar-like necklace.

    The shire existence of Qiucky in the year of 2017 is deeply disturbing.

    Quik Brown Bunny (a.k.a. Quicky) undermines normal academic development of young African Americans by unwittingly perpetuating all kind of worst racial stereotypes of this vulnerable community.

    Quicky’s emblematic message to preadolescent African Americans has a devastating effect on their self-esteem; Quicky depicts them as of being not only some of kind happy-go-lucky,extremely well athletically suited, and uppity-hippity-hoppity, running escalators, long-eared piccanninies , but also implying inherited inability to focus and being quite easy to distract in comparison to the rest of their peers.

    Young Africans Americans should know that their brown bodies are not agile,but fragile.

    It’s time for Nestle to retire Quicky The Brown Rabbit, and introduce Smuggy The Black Bear:

    http://russcook.blogspot.com/2014/03/neil-degrasse-tyson.html

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Re: the second paragraph: this is not a NYT editorial unless those fools now don't even know how to spell "sheer."
  137. “At the same time, its also identifying with the culture of the rule of law and fair play, and I’m essentially competing fairly and legally. In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic. ”

    The Puritan work ethic is not the only American strand. In any event, no, that’s not it. Puritans weren’t particularly competitive.

    BTW, I’ve said this before that while the behavior is very unattractive and often involves cheating (directly), the problem is with Americans refusing to acknowledge the damage done to our culture by immigration. Nor do I think Asians are inherently bad or wrong.

    In contrast, most of the Republicans speaking approvingly of Asian success aren’t sending their kids to Asian schools. They’re just using Asian immigrants as a club to beat blacks and Hispanics with.

    As for the reason Asians tend not to vote for Republicans, well, they probably realize it’s easier to guilt Democrats than Republicans. But I’ve read that much of it has to do with machine voting. My own thought is that much of the voting is about increasing immigration from their own country of origin, and seeing Dems as the way to achieve that. Remember, Asians over here don’t think very much of Americans generally .

    BTW, I’ve said several times I am unconflicted about Asian overperformance. I even think that, with some assimilation, Asian performance might turn into a genuine proxy for what Americans are looking for. Right now, it’s not. That doesn’t mean that Asians aren’t bright, aren’t able of getting high test scores, and aren’t capable of having the same wide range of knowledge and abilities that other races have with similar scores.

    I don’t hate Asians, don’t hate the higher performance. I am seriously concerned about what American desire for immigration and, in the case of higher ed, money is doing to our education system by flooding it with Asians. The system is not well-designed to force them to adapt, because we aren’t used to insisting that foreigners adapt to American ways.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's insane to import a new elite. The American pie doesn't seem to be getting any bigger. There are only so many slots at undergraduate and graduate programs at top universities. There are only so many spots for medical residencies, investment banking training programs, or other similar plum jobs. How does increasing competition for these few spots bode well for a having peaceful society? Others here have mentioned previously a problem with the over-production of elites (I wish I had a link handy).
  138. anarchyst says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    but in lots of walks of life success requires a mix of competence, hard work, and social skills...
     
    The results of that are self-evident, though. East Asians are generally not hired for managerial or sales positions; white Americans who are hired for such positions do not necessarily have more impressive credentials.

    Honestly, in my experience, most functional companies do not overtly focus themselves on degrees and certainly don't for senior level positions - those are basically chosen hopefully from good evaluation of the candidate's skills based on prior experience, or more often, out of some form of networking and nepotism. I used to do a lot of job hopping before I engaged on my current career; not once did anyone put much thought in my college experience.

    I don't think that this forces Western children into cram sessions, so as long as credentialism is not the law of the land where hiring is taking place. And if credentialism becomes the law of the land, there are much larger problems about the bureaucratic hell that has emerged.

    Your comment that functional companies do not rely on the “college degree” does not pan out in the real world. especially in the USA.
    You see, with the abolition of aptitude tests, due to a Supreme Court decision (Griggs v. Duke Power), which was made due to “disparate impact” on (certain) minorities, it is now illegal to utilize aptitude tests to determine suitability for an employment position.
    Hence, the “college degree” became the “gatekeeper”…as flawed as it is. There are many positions that would ordinarily not require a “college degree”, but due to this flawed Supreme Court decision, the rest is history.
    However, some enlightened employers are finally “seeing the light” and do realize that a college degree is no guarantee of employment suitability…

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I'll agree that while a college degree is useful, the entire Ivy League university humping isn't evident to me as being all that valuable, especially once a few years of experience are down the line. There's a body of work in previous job experience which shows more than an overpriced degree versus a community college degree.

    Really, companies shouldn't for purely business reasons. The number of social justice classes that one has been able to get through tells you next to nothing about the candidate's job capabilities.

    HR might be impressed by that, and in that sense, they might be a gatekeeper. In the companies I've been in, including a few Forbes 100 ones, though, the management only vaguely gives any credit to HR opinion, which is usually quite useless.

  139. Truth says:
    @AnotherDad
    The man has a point. The school district is 70% "Hispanic"--btw why isn't it "Herpanic"?--or black. Seems like the good students among them should have a good shot at a decent school experience and not be dragged down by the garbage that happens to share the same race\ethnicity\neighborhood.

    Obviously the real solution is vouchers. But that isn't happening anytime soon.

    What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High. You're competing against the best of your own. And the experience is better. The truth is whites--even the smarties--don't really enjoy the atmosphere of BAH (Best Asian High). Same no-doubt applies to other groups. But schooling with the elite of their own group would by a rewarding experience--a plum assignment for all kids.

    What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High

    Extremely reasonable, Dad. But probably only in a land where butterscotch-flavored gumdrops fall from the sky.

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  140. Truth says:
    @Twinkie

    Twinkie, you screwed a white kid out of his spot 40 years ago. Tsk..tsk.
     
    No, you, dimwit, I "screwed... out of his spot" a bright Jewish student who would have gone on to Harvard law school and become another humanitarian, pro-American mergers-and-acquisitions lawyer or management consultant in NYC with a profound reverence for the sacred emblems of our country and a deep respect for the ordinary - Christian - people in "flyover" country. So much so that he'd have lovingly told the latter how to live better and more correctly by funding that patriotic party, the Democrats to take over all institutions of power and influence in the society at large.

    Yeah, it was a tragedy and a great robbery.

    Instead, America got a race-traitor yellow man, who went around the world committing war crimes and murdering innocent Muslim peace activists, all the while giving aid and comfort to the anti-Semitic, black-hating KKK racists (aka "the Republican party" and the so-called conservatives), who even now is raising a brood of racist, homophobic children with toxic, evil ideology such as American sovereignty and Christianity.

    I should just commit Seppuku, but my life-hating medievalist death cult called the Catholic Church told me that was a bad idea, because it needs me to stay alive and screw America some more with my toxic ideology.

    Instead, America got a race-traitor yellow man, who went around the world committing war crimes and murdering innocent Muslim peace activists, all the while giving aid and comfort to the anti-Semitic, black-hating KKK racists (aka “the Republican party” and the so-called conservatives), who even now is raising a brood of racist, homophobic children with toxic, evil ideology such as American sovereignty and Christianity.

    I should just commit Seppuku, but my life-hating medievalist death cult called the Catholic Church told me that was a bad idea, because it needs me to stay alive and screw America some more with my toxic ideology.

    Yeah come to think of it, you have F-ed up enough for three lifetimes, but it’s all good Dawg, you still my boy.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Yeah come to think of it, you have F-ed up enough for three lifetimes, but it’s all good Dawg, you still my boy.
     
    Weak. Work on your rap-fu some more.
  141. res says:
    @education realist
    The test is not meritocratic. It was designed for a largely white test population, with far less competition. It was designed to give an advantage to outliers--people who were particularly good in math or verbal skills, with a very high score in one and an average score in the other. Higher scores are given for someone who gets 99th percentile in one topic and a below 50 percentile in the other.

    Now, back in the 70s, this mean that priority would be given to kids with high verbal scores OR high math scores, and then there'd be plenty of room for kids with high verbal AND high math scores, and so on.

    No one understood than in fifteen years or so, the system would be overrun with kids who spoke very little English but did enough prep (without any real improvement) enough to fake a 40th percentile score on verbal and then start Saturday classes in second grade to work math problems without any genuine understanding for 6-7 years in order to get a 99th percentile on the test. No one understood that kids with 90%ile scores in both subjects might not get into any of the top ranked schools, or that kids who didn't speak or write fluent English would get higher scores than kids who both knew a lot of math and were capable of benefiting from focused Shakespeare studies. (Ironically, it's now easier to get good grades in English than math at Stuyvesant--and not because the talent is stronger. Fewer kids take humanities courses, parents bitch mightily about grades, and few of the kids are any good at all.)

    At this point, I suspect a lot of the white kids who go to Stuyvesant are those who can get in without working that hard. Going to an 80% Asian school is pretty miserable, even if you have a good sense of humor.

    It was designed to give an advantage to outliers–people who were particularly good in math or verbal skills, with a very high score in one and an average score in the other. Higher scores are given for someone who gets 99th percentile in one topic and a below 50 percentile in the other.

    It is interesting that I see the exact same data and come to a different conclusion. To my thinking this test scoring is compressed at the top end (especially post-2016 if you look at the latest SAT equivalence tables) to give an advantage to the mid-range (or perhaps more accurately, to obscure how big a gulf there is). With the pre-1995 SAT one could argue that there was a bias towards exceptional verbal skills because the math ceiling was so much lower.

    The last sentence (higher is a comparative) is not particularly meaningful without a comparison example. What kind of relationship would you assign to students with relative balances of 99%V/50%M and 50%V/99%M? What balanced percentiles would you consider comparably desirable to each of those?

    For grins, lets do a hypothetical looking at 99/50 and 75/75 splits with 2014 SAT percentiles:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-crit-reading-math-writing-2014.pdf

    Percentile Math Verbal/CR
    99 780 760
    75 600 580
    50 500 510

    Giving composite scores of

    99%V/50%M 1260
    75%V/75%M 1180
    50%V/99%M 1290

    For reference an evenly numerically split 1260 would be 82/86 M/V percentiles.

    Which does argue for a small math bias and larger asymmetry bias by this metric. I think the difference between our views can be explained by me looking at equal ability (e.g. IQ) intervals rather than equal percentile intervals (this is a critical point, anyone have arguments for valuing one approach over the other?). Because of the shape of the normal curve the midrange percentiles tend to be lumped together given that the SAT means are defined as 500. Note that this could also be argued as a bias against 99.9% math skills because that can’t be discerned from 99% as easily as the equivalent verbal skills given the lower ceiling for math (I’m guessing this effect is very relevant for Asians applying to elite colleges).

    It is unclear to me how overall college admissions should value these splits. I know who I would (and would not) pick for a literature or engineering department, but other majors might be unclear. The shape of the normal curve also implies that 75/75 is not the proper comparison split IMHO.

    It would be interesting to make this comparison for other incarnations of the SAT.

    P.S. Does anyone have data on how highly unbalanced Asian scores on the SAT correspond to later GRE scores? I would hypothesize that much of the disparity is late English learners (i.e. not intrinsic, which IMHO is incredibly important) and would be more muted in the GRE after four more years of intensive acculturation. I would really like to see evidence either way with same person comparisons (too much selection effect in going to grad school to compare overall averages).

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  142. FKA Max says:
    @Twinkie

    As I mentioned above — as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington — the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization
     
    Dr. Huntington also separated civilizations and people. The two - though often overlapping - were not identical to him. He also believed in assimilation. Have you ever read "Who Are We?" He took a much more benign - even positive - view of Asian immigrants. To him the real danger was the large-scale Hispanic immigration (I, of course, take a much dimmer view of Chinese and Indian immigrants of today than he would have).

    This is a whole other topic, and I do not want to get into it, but his clash of civilizations theory had some significant holes (for example, intra-civilizational battles, particularly along the periphery of given civilizations are often far more vindictive and deadly than inter-civilizational wars). He was unjustly attacked by shrill leftists, but that didn't necessarily make him right about everything.

    Personally, I feel that his “Clash of Civilizations” theory/framework has aged extremely well. There is, however , the possibility that his theory so greatly influenced world leaders, that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is a rumor, for example, that Putin invaded eastern Ukraine because he believed/agreed with Huntington’s analysis, that it is a “cleft country,” which will eventually/is destined to brake apart along cultural/civilizational lines.

    But you are correct, that he, for example, does not distinguish between Protestant and Catholic culture within Western Civilization, which is a bit annoying to me, because I feel this distinction has extreme significance (as you will see and read, if you browse through my commenting history here at the Unz Review); he just uses the generic “Christian,” and even calls the U.S. a traditionally “Christian” country, when it is clearly a traditionally and historically Protestant county and culture. Very, very annoying to me, because it gives the Catholic Church immense power, cover, and protection in the U.S. for all kinds of nefarious activities, e.g., advocating for open borders towards Latin America, because they are “Christians” just like us.

    I also wanted to add, that I admire traditional Chinese culture. I have been studying Feng Shui for over 15+ years now.

    What we see today as Sinic/Chinese culture/civilization is really the Chinese Communist Party civilization/culture and not traditional Chinese civilization/culture, in my opinion. However, most Chinese coming over here to the U.S. have the Chinese Communist Party/Social Darwinist/cram school mindset, instead of the Feng Shui mindset.

    Maybe, if Sinic Civilization was more based on Feng Shui principles again, like in Hong Kong and in Taiwan, it would be more compatible and have less of an adversarial relationship with Western Civilization? I think/believe so.

    The same could be said about Islamic Civilization. If it was more based on the Sufi tradition, instead of the Arab/Wahhabi tradition, things would probably go more smoothly between our civilizations, cultures, and peoples.

    But we need to be realistic, and face the reality/facts, that this is currently most decidedly not the case, unfortunately. But things can change. Hope dies last.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Personally, I feel that his “Clash of Civilizations” theory/framework has aged extremely well.
     
    It's one of those theories that looks good from afar, but doesn't stand up well to close scrutiny.

    There is, however , the possibility that his theory so greatly influenced world leaders, that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
     
    Yes.

    Very, very annoying to me, because it gives the Catholic Church immense power, cover, and protection in the U.S. for all kinds of nefarious activities, e.g., advocating for open borders towards Latin America, because they are “Christians” just like us.
     
    You know I am Catholic, right? Of course, I am not exactly a Nancy Pelosi Catholic, so...

    I also wanted to add, that I admire traditional Chinese culture. I have been studying Feng Shui for over 15+ years now.
     
    I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I do NOT admire traditional Chinese culture and I think Feng Shui is superstition.

    By th way, one thing to keep in mind is that Chinese =/= Asian. When we discuss Asian immigrant groups in the U.S., we are talking about fairly diverse lot with different cultures and rates of assimilation. Even among East Asians, Chinese-, Korean-, and Japanese-Americans display significant differences in many ways.
  143. Truth says:
    @Twinkie

    this is why Twinkie is all mad at me–he told what he saw as an inspiring story about his unending grind for good test scores and I told him that people like him are why we can’t have nice things here in America
     
    I think Mr. Sailer calls this "retconning" of past history. I am not mad at you. The kind of people at whom I am mad are, say, the ones who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. And I do something about it when I find myself mad at people.

    I find you contemptible, because you are intellectually dishonest. And this ad hominem is a fine example of it. You make personal attacks and when the target responds, your retort is the "Of course, of course, it's all about you." But when your opponent wants to talk numbers and percentages and concepts such as mismatch that even bright junior high school students can grasp, you - with your allegedly above neurosurgeon IQ - disappear.

    We get it. You didn't work hard and "had a life" in high school instead, so now you are stuck teaching cram schools or babysitting tiger babies. It's unpleasant educating other people's children who might end up somewhere nicer where you or your own kid didn't or couldn't. Now you get your gratification appealing to a certain segment of the Alt-Right or HBD movement for whom white people being better than blacks is just science/HBD while Asians being better than whites in some things is just cheating. So keep making the lives of your students miserable as you once so deliciously boasted. In this life or next, you are going to be accountable for your deeds.

    We get it. You didn’t work hard and “had a life” in high school instead, so now you are stuck teaching cram schools or babysitting tiger babies. It’s unpleasant educating other people’s children who might end up somewhere nicer where you or your own kid didn’t or couldn’t. Now you get your gratification appealing to a certain segment of the Alt-Right or HBD movement for whom white people being better than blacks is just science/HBD while Asians being better than whites in some things is just cheating. So keep making the lives of your students miserable as you once so deliciously boasted. In this life or next, you are going to be accountable for your deeds.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie
    I don't speak Seinfeld, so you will have to translate. Bonus points if you could do an interpretative dance version. Self-record and post online, why don't ya?
  144. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic
     
    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer's parlance of [they should] git gud!

    The notion of naked competition is not a foreign concept, and as she might hint at, pretty widespread even in video games and entertainment. Its essentially a large part of universal, modern culture.

    Indeed, even "grind" culture isn't really unique to Asia. Its much more universal to Confucian cultures, but as commentators to Amy Chua's Tiger Mom book have noted, its always been part of some American elites. The opposite notion of "success should come without work" was mentioned by Orwell as the fading British ideal, one that did not survive WW2 and was struggling even before that.

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!

    You’re married to Reba McEntire?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Had to google her. Did she make references to gaming?
  145. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @education realist
    "At the same time, its also identifying with the culture of the rule of law and fair play, and I’m essentially competing fairly and legally. In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic. "

    The Puritan work ethic is not the only American strand. In any event, no, that's not it. Puritans weren't particularly competitive.

    BTW, I've said this before that while the behavior is very unattractive and often involves cheating (directly), the problem is with Americans refusing to acknowledge the damage done to our culture by immigration. Nor do I think Asians are inherently bad or wrong.

    In contrast, most of the Republicans speaking approvingly of Asian success aren't sending their kids to Asian schools. They're just using Asian immigrants as a club to beat blacks and Hispanics with.

    As for the reason Asians tend not to vote for Republicans, well, they probably realize it's easier to guilt Democrats than Republicans. But I've read that much of it has to do with machine voting. My own thought is that much of the voting is about increasing immigration from their own country of origin, and seeing Dems as the way to achieve that. Remember, Asians over here don't think very much of Americans generally .


    BTW, I've said several times I am unconflicted about Asian overperformance. I even think that, with some assimilation, Asian performance might turn into a genuine proxy for what Americans are looking for. Right now, it's not. That doesn't mean that Asians aren't bright, aren't able of getting high test scores, and aren't capable of having the same wide range of knowledge and abilities that other races have with similar scores.

    I don't hate Asians, don't hate the higher performance. I am seriously concerned about what American desire for immigration and, in the case of higher ed, money is doing to our education system by flooding it with Asians. The system is not well-designed to force them to adapt, because we aren't used to insisting that foreigners adapt to American ways.

    It’s insane to import a new elite. The American pie doesn’t seem to be getting any bigger. There are only so many slots at undergraduate and graduate programs at top universities. There are only so many spots for medical residencies, investment banking training programs, or other similar plum jobs. How does increasing competition for these few spots bode well for a having peaceful society? Others here have mentioned previously a problem with the over-production of elites (I wish I had a link handy).

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  146. I’m from the South Bronx and some kids in my area go to specialized schools. The Asian families in my neighborhood are dirt poor and they come from Bengal and a place in China called Fujan. Theres no difference between Asians and Mexicans in terms of their social class.

    The reason whites dont go to these schools is because they aren’t in the same social class. Prole whites put their kids in Catholic schools and rich whites don’t even live in my area. Btw these people are also Democrats.

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  147. res says:
    @Twinkie

    Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.
     
    Translation: I resent people who worked harder than I did and achieved more in life.

    Most Americans are very fair-minded and respect those who come to their achievements through hard work. Your idea that Americans somehow love those for whom things come effortlessly tells me that 1) you have no idea how much work geniuses actually do in their own fields and 2) you have little understanding of most of our fellow Americans.

    A friend of mine from college is a leading physicist. He is a certifiable genius - he smashes atoms for a living, as the saying goes. Although math that eludes you (and me, for that matter) comes very "effortlessly" to him, he works extremely hard at HIS level of mathematics and physics. The idea that the cognitive elite is made up of mediocre grinds and lazy, natural geniuses is stupid in the extreme. It is actually made up of genius grinds.

    As a corollary to sport, I have a friend who was a minor league baseball player. He worked extremely hard and was pretty good, but not good enough for the Major League. He found that there were naturally (genetically, if you will) gifted people who worked just as hard as he did. He realized that there was just no physical way for him to outcompete someone who worked just hard as he did yet had greater natural talent. There just weren't enough hours in a day to make up the deficit.

    As for what our fellow Americans think about hard work, some actor once said, "L.A. is all hype. New York is all talk. Chicago, Chicago is work." Although a superficial statement, to be fair, it does capture something of the cultural differences between the agricultural Midwest and the coastal areas. The taciturn Germans and Scandinavians who settled in the Midwest and their descendants indeed prize laconic, high work ethic. You have to, if you keep farm hours.

    As a corollary to sport, I have a friend who was a minor league baseball player. He worked extremely hard and was pretty good, but not good enough for the Major League. He found that there were naturally (genetically, if you will) gifted people who worked just as hard as he did. He realized that there was just no physical way for him to outcompete someone who worked just hard as he did yet had greater natural talent. There just weren’t enough hours in a day to make up the deficit.

    The thing I find most amazing (and instructive) is that I think the gap between that athlete and me is much larger than the gap between him and a major leaguer. To try to put numbers on it say I am average athletically (I can make arguments for +/- 1 SD IMHO, with realized results compatible with that, working hard, and some specific abilities). The minor leaguer is perhaps +3-4 SD (i.e. 1 in 400-15k) where the major leaguer is probably between 4SD and 5SD (1 in 2 million!). The dropoff in frequency by SD at that level is astonishing. FWIW my sense is one can make up 1 and maybe 2 SD of ability by working harder/exceptionally harder than someone else. At the center of the distribution this means it is quite easy to move up greatly in a percentile sense with hard work which is not true at the extreme.

    I think a three characteristic model is instructive here (as is its intellectual analog). The three characteristics are general athletic ability, sport specific ability, and work ethic. As a thought experiment, measure them with Z scores (SD) and sum them to get a total (yes, both steps are hugely arguable). Given the shape of the normal curve and an assumption that the three characteristics are largely uncorrelated (again, very arguable) it is most likely to see people with roughly equal skills at the highest levels. For example, 1 in 400 * 400 * 400 = 64e6 (3SD x 3) is more common than 20 * 400 * 15,000 = 120e6 (2,3,4 SD) and much more common than 3 * 400 * 2e6 = 2.4e9 (1,3,5 SD).

    What do others think about this way of looking at this?

    P.S. Frequencies approximated from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution#Standard_deviation_and_coverage

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I think the gap between that athlete and me is much larger than the gap between him and a major leaguer.
     
    Oh, yes.

    In fact, at the highest level of just about any competitive athletics, the gap is so small that just a little bit of "relaxation" can take a champion from crushing dominance to a humiliating defeat. I see that in the fight game all the time. That's why it's hard to stay on top - because success, fame, and having money makes champions soft and make them easier targets for the up-and-comers (see Rocky III for a cinematic treatment of this phenomenon). It really takes a special athlete, with the accompanying, unique mentality, to "stay hungry" and be able to kill himself physicially and mentally every day to remain sharp and at the top of his game.
  148. res says:
    @carol
    Murray also thinks the white underclass is so useless that we may as well put them on a guaranteed minimum income. He may be correct but putting them on the dole will surely make it so.

    If Murray thinks the white underclass is useless I wonder what his candid thoughts would be about the other underclasses.

    Agreed about “surely make it so.”

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  149. @anarchyst
    Your comment that functional companies do not rely on the "college degree" does not pan out in the real world. especially in the USA.
    You see, with the abolition of aptitude tests, due to a Supreme Court decision (Griggs v. Duke Power), which was made due to "disparate impact" on (certain) minorities, it is now illegal to utilize aptitude tests to determine suitability for an employment position.
    Hence, the "college degree" became the "gatekeeper"...as flawed as it is. There are many positions that would ordinarily not require a "college degree", but due to this flawed Supreme Court decision, the rest is history.
    However, some enlightened employers are finally "seeing the light" and do realize that a college degree is no guarantee of employment suitability...

    I’ll agree that while a college degree is useful, the entire Ivy League university humping isn’t evident to me as being all that valuable, especially once a few years of experience are down the line. There’s a body of work in previous job experience which shows more than an overpriced degree versus a community college degree.

    Really, companies shouldn’t for purely business reasons. The number of social justice classes that one has been able to get through tells you next to nothing about the candidate’s job capabilities.

    HR might be impressed by that, and in that sense, they might be a gatekeeper. In the companies I’ve been in, including a few Forbes 100 ones, though, the management only vaguely gives any credit to HR opinion, which is usually quite useless.

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    • Replies: @anarchyst
    You make a very good point. Enlightened companies will look beyond the "college degree". However, HR departments, quite often control hiring decisions, especially in large companies...it is necessary to get past HR and contact the principles directly, which is sometimes difficult to do.
    Regards,
  150. @Truth

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!
     

    You're married to Reba McEntire?

    Had to google her. Did she make references to gaming?

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    • Replies: @Truth
    No Bro, the accent...never mind.

    Hey you should bone up on your country though, The angry WNs might let you stay when they take the country over in a bloody revolt and start kicking people out.
  151. @res
    I'm curious how much everyone here thinks the Asian grind conversation is pretty much a retread of 20th century conversations about Jews and academics? For example, take a look at this book page and consider how it would read replacing Jew with Asian and shifting the POV a few decades.

    P.S. I wish Google Books supported cut and paste.

    Deeply amusing, and thanks for sharing. I’ve noted the similarities of Jews and the Chinese immigrant community before, especially in directed ethnic violence against us, such as in Indonesia and Malaysia.

    That there’s a certain backlash is pretty inevitable, for better or worse.

    I particularly liked the reference to the Jewish there with “reputation as academic grinds.” Quite fitting.

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    • Replies: @Marina
    Thomas Sowell has a book on what he calls middleman minorities. Jews in Eastern Europe and the Chinese in Southeast Asia are two of his big examples. I think the other one was Indians in East Africa.
  152. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    You might note, we are not in support of those policies either.
     
    Maybe not you personally, but some of you are. How many Asians in America are Democrat voters or ‘Asian Conservatives’ ? Probably too many for whites who like living in a white country.

    For what it is worth, the Asian Conservative you noted is pretty obviously a parody. I mean:

    “A border wall is unconservative, and it offends my Asian sensibilities. If there’s anything you won’t find in Asia, it’s a big wall”

    I made a similar joke once: China would never ever do something like build a wall.

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  153. Marina says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Deeply amusing, and thanks for sharing. I've noted the similarities of Jews and the Chinese immigrant community before, especially in directed ethnic violence against us, such as in Indonesia and Malaysia.

    That there's a certain backlash is pretty inevitable, for better or worse.

    I particularly liked the reference to the Jewish there with "reputation as academic grinds." Quite fitting.

    Thomas Sowell has a book on what he calls middleman minorities. Jews in Eastern Europe and the Chinese in Southeast Asia are two of his big examples. I think the other one was Indians in East Africa.

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  154. @Jack D

    Perhaps what Hewitt is trying to do with the term “test prep” is to dogwhistle to New York City’s shrinking but still immensely wealthy and influential white community that they should support his demand for a fuzzier, more “holistic” admission system so that their white children will have a better chance of getting admitted to Stuyvesant instead of all these products of the Asian test prep juggernaut.

    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.
     

    If you read Jerome Karebel's The Chosen:

    https://www.amazon.com/Chosen-History-Admission-Exclusion-Princeton/dp/061877355X

    he says that the "holistic" college admission system that we have was invented SOLELY for this purpose (except back in the '20s the "problem" was too many Jews, not too many Asians).

    Before the '20s, getting into Ivy League schools was exactly like getting into Stuyvesant today (and exactly like the admission system in many homogeneous societies like Japan still are) - each school had a difficult admissions test and the applicants would be scored and rank ordered and admitted from the list from the top down until the class was full. No evaluation of "leadership", no essays, no weight given to sports or legacy, no application "readers". Quite a bit of effort was spent on the test (in those pre-SAT days) but admissions was a simple clerical task once the test results were in.

    But Harvard was starting to "tip" Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire "holistic" system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn't just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard - it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.

    I don't think BTW that this is a dog whistle to wealthy whites - as far as they are concerned, they have no interest in sending their sons and daughters to compete against Asian grinds in public schools nowadays - making Stuyvesant 1/2 Asian instead of 2/3 Asian would be too little, too late. $40k/ yr. is what they spend on wine or ski trips - not even a rounding error on their Goldman-Sachs bonus.

    But Harvard was starting to “tip” Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire “holistic” system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn’t just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard – it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.

    The “Ivy League Jewish Quotas” topic is one a little window into the Jewish mentality and the disaster that’s befallen the West. And one of the striking things is how Jews–even ones who seem nominally smart–seem almost incapable of any conception of anyone else’s view of the world.

    The essentially essence of that mentality:
    “What is ours is ours. What is yours is ours”
    Deviation from that => anti-Semitism.

    I see no legal, ethnical or moral issue with the Anglo-Protestants who founded these Ivy League–private!–universities wanting to keep them Anglo-Protestant in orientation, student body or “sensibility”. If they wanted to stay *all* Anglo-Protestant, that would be peachy. They built ‘em, they own ‘em. Certainly my Catholic ancestors–ok not *my* ancestors who moved to Iowa and got to work, but others–felt a bit at odds with the Anglo aristocracy … and so built their own damn universities. But for Jews it’s another little nugget they can obsess over.

    Jews have spent the last couple thousand years defining their community and loyalty genetically rather than geographically, *refusing* any integration with the locals, and in fact concocting specific religious strictures against fraternization with outsiders. But some Protestants want to–sort of–do their own thing–in fact, not even exclude Jews (unlike Jews they have a larger more geographic concept of loyalty) but simply maintain the character of and control over their own institutions–and it’s some sort of crime against humanity?

    Furthermore, Jews are always blathering on about themselves, patting themselves on their back about their superior–argumentative and talky–culture. But of course if it is notable or superior, than it also by definition must be “different”. So why wouldn’t Protestants think … “hey we don’t really want our college to be 50% Jewish as the place will have a decidedly different character”? I’m sure no Jewish university would want to become say 50% evangelical much less 50% muslim. Pretty obvious stuff.

    ~~~

    This isn’t something I obsess over, so a quick search last night to see “what up”. This from the Jewish side, so if anything spun to their favor:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/harvard-s-jewish-problem

    This great anti-Semitism was a Harvard president suggesting a generous Jewish quota of 15%. (I.e. limited Jews to merely a large over-representation rather than a massive one.) And apparently they didn’t even implement such a quota. Rather they actually opened up geographically and pulled kids from all over–making Harvard more representative, “look more like America”–that’s the “Jewish quota”, that’s a great anti-Semitic crime.

    And now that the Jews are in control … they have clearly slapped a–pretty solid–quota on Asians, who are simply doing the same thing the Jews did a century back–tearing up the admissions test. Asian populations ramp up, their domination of the scores ramps up even faster, but somehow their Ivy populations just sort of sit there … just a notch or two above that egregiously repressive 15%. But of course, that quota is not the crime of “anti-Asianism” it’s … uh … “character” and “diversity”. And, of course, unlike the old school Protestants, the Jews don’t talk honestly about what they are doing, much less their motives.

    Hey, I get it. I have no desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Asians either. (I could see that the heavy Asian presence at my kids’ school–UW–actually made the college experience worse. The Chinese-Chinese students in particular don’t just take up space, they degrade the public-community space for others.) But then I don’t have a desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Jews either. Though my best friends (from grad school) are Asian-Indians, I find white-gentile dominated environments to be the most pleasant, friendly and fun. I’m a white gentile so no surprise. (Though truth be told, we white gentiles just objectively build better more open, more pleasant communities and nations. It’s what we do.) Blacks or Jews or Asians or Hispanics might find other environments more congenial–which is fine. But Jews’–discrimination ok for me, but not for thee thing–is just a boatload of crap.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    As I mentioned before, in countries where people don't define themselves by race or religion or ethnic group such as Japan or France college admission is a simple matter of rank ordering the applicant's qualifying test scores. Nobody gets any preference or is under any disadvantage because they are of the "right" or "wrong" religion or ethnicity. No one even thinks that way - they are glad to get the smartest kids that they can get. The Jews in America THOUGHT that they were living in a country like that, where we were all Americans. Harvard was supposed to be a secular institution, welcoming applicants from (and accepting donations from) people of all religions. And that had been the method used at Harvard for many decades. So they were a little shocked when Harvard changed the rules in the middle of the game just to keep them out.

    You look it as white Protestant "owning" America but I disagree - no one ethnic group "owns" America. There have been Jews and Catholics here from day 1 (hell, one of the 13 colonies was set up just for Catholics) and its just as much "ours" as anyone else's. If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that's not how they were selling it.

    , @Twinkie

    Though my best friends (from grad school) are Asian-Indians
     
    Why is this so when you "find white-gentile dominated environments to be the most pleasant, friendly and fun"? Are you a glutton for punishment?
  155. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Had to google her. Did she make references to gaming?

    No Bro, the accent…never mind.

    Hey you should bone up on your country though, The angry WNs might let you stay when they take the country over in a bloody revolt and start kicking people out.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Nah, I'm going to right into an oven once they win and make greater discoveries about the melting point of subhuman flesh :D
  156. Lex Corvus says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity
     
    But isn't the entire point of meritocracy just to find people with merit, not necessarily address inequity? The point is to concentrated resources onto people who are most likely to make best use of it, no?

    It’s Blank Slate Über Alles.

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  157. @FKA Max

    I’m mostly ignoring the other commentators as it has reached a bit of monotony (several other commentators have mentioned the sheer frantic outrage that some Unz members have at any notion of Asian outperformance in anything)
     
    This seems like a bit of a cop-out, to me.

    This was a most insightful comment by commenter Paul Yarbles :


    With too many muslims you get Sharia Law. With too many Chinese you get Grindria Law. As in most things rates matter. Cutting down immigration would be a nice and peaceful way to lessen tensions.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810109

    As I mentioned above -- as per Stuyvesant HS alumnus Samuel P. Huntington -- the Islamic and the Sinic civilizations are the two civilizations least compatible with Western Civilization:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Huntington_Clash_of_Civilizations_chart.gif
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810180

    We don't want Sharia or Grindria law and culture in our lands. Is that so hard to understand?

    Qatar has one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, one of the highest personal savings rates, and low crime rates; we still don't want (rich) Qataris (or Chinese) to move to our lands and/or invest here and then proceed to build madrassas (or cram schools), and change/corrupt our culture and our way of life.

    Qatar has one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, one of the highest personal savings rates, and low crime rates;

    LOL

    Lauren Patterson, 24, from Kent, was sexually assaulted and stabbed and her burnt remains were left in a remote desert location by a local ‘casual acquaintance’ in October 2013

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  158. Jack D says:
    @AnotherDad

    But Harvard was starting to “tip” Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire “holistic” system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn’t just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard – it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.
     
    The "Ivy League Jewish Quotas" topic is one a little window into the Jewish mentality and the disaster that's befallen the West. And one of the striking things is how Jews--even ones who seem nominally smart--seem almost incapable of any conception of anyone else's view of the world.

    The essentially essence of that mentality:
    "What is ours is ours. What is yours is ours"
    Deviation from that => anti-Semitism.

    I see no legal, ethnical or moral issue with the Anglo-Protestants who founded these Ivy League--private!--universities wanting to keep them Anglo-Protestant in orientation, student body or "sensibility". If they wanted to stay *all* Anglo-Protestant, that would be peachy. They built 'em, they own 'em. Certainly my Catholic ancestors--ok not *my* ancestors who moved to Iowa and got to work, but others--felt a bit at odds with the Anglo aristocracy ... and so built their own damn universities. But for Jews it's another little nugget they can obsess over.

    Jews have spent the last couple thousand years defining their community and loyalty genetically rather than geographically, *refusing* any integration with the locals, and in fact concocting specific religious strictures against fraternization with outsiders. But some Protestants want to--sort of--do their own thing--in fact, not even exclude Jews (unlike Jews they have a larger more geographic concept of loyalty) but simply maintain the character of and control over their own institutions--and it's some sort of crime against humanity?

    Furthermore, Jews are always blathering on about themselves, patting themselves on their back about their superior--argumentative and talky--culture. But of course if it is notable or superior, than it also by definition must be "different". So why wouldn't Protestants think ... "hey we don't really want our college to be 50% Jewish as the place will have a decidedly different character"? I'm sure no Jewish university would want to become say 50% evangelical much less 50% muslim. Pretty obvious stuff.

    ~~~

    This isn't something I obsess over, so a quick search last night to see "what up". This from the Jewish side, so if anything spun to their favor:
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/harvard-s-jewish-problem
    This great anti-Semitism was a Harvard president suggesting a generous Jewish quota of 15%. (I.e. limited Jews to merely a large over-representation rather than a massive one.) And apparently they didn't even implement such a quota. Rather they actually opened up geographically and pulled kids from all over--making Harvard more representative, "look more like America"--that's the "Jewish quota", that's a great anti-Semitic crime.

    And now that the Jews are in control ... they have clearly slapped a--pretty solid--quota on Asians, who are simply doing the same thing the Jews did a century back--tearing up the admissions test. Asian populations ramp up, their domination of the scores ramps up even faster, but somehow their Ivy populations just sort of sit there ... just a notch or two above that egregiously repressive 15%. But of course, that quota is not the crime of "anti-Asianism" it's ... uh ... "character" and "diversity". And, of course, unlike the old school Protestants, the Jews don't talk honestly about what they are doing, much less their motives.

    Hey, I get it. I have no desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Asians either. (I could see that the heavy Asian presence at my kids' school--UW--actually made the college experience worse. The Chinese-Chinese students in particular don't just take up space, they degrade the public-community space for others.) But then I don't have a desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Jews either. Though my best friends (from grad school) are Asian-Indians, I find white-gentile dominated environments to be the most pleasant, friendly and fun. I'm a white gentile so no surprise. (Though truth be told, we white gentiles just objectively build better more open, more pleasant communities and nations. It's what we do.) Blacks or Jews or Asians or Hispanics might find other environments more congenial--which is fine. But Jews'--discrimination ok for me, but not for thee thing--is just a boatload of crap.

    As I mentioned before, in countries where people don’t define themselves by race or religion or ethnic group such as Japan or France college admission is a simple matter of rank ordering the applicant’s qualifying test scores. Nobody gets any preference or is under any disadvantage because they are of the “right” or “wrong” religion or ethnicity. No one even thinks that way – they are glad to get the smartest kids that they can get. The Jews in America THOUGHT that they were living in a country like that, where we were all Americans. Harvard was supposed to be a secular institution, welcoming applicants from (and accepting donations from) people of all religions. And that had been the method used at Harvard for many decades. So they were a little shocked when Harvard changed the rules in the middle of the game just to keep them out.

    You look it as white Protestant “owning” America but I disagree – no one ethnic group “owns” America. There have been Jews and Catholics here from day 1 (hell, one of the 13 colonies was set up just for Catholics) and its just as much “ours” as anyone else’s. If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that’s not how they were selling it.

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    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    Jack, you're being too binary here.

    All real nations have "a people" with their own culture and traditions. States that plausibly don't aren't really nations. And generally, aren't particularly pleasant places to live--with a tendency toward conflict. They have a hard time being free republics, generally they end up being run by a heavy handed state--authoritarian if not worse--dedicated to keeping everyone in line. (Heck, I'm not liking the trend line of the "freedom quotient" in the US, since the Jews did their long march through the institutions and created the new diverse minoritarian America.)

    America isn't exactly like "our ancestors the Gauls" France (or rather the before time France), but it certainly did have a particular "people". I'm not going to quote John Jay. It's obvious and not subject to any serious debate. Broadly "Anglo-Protestant". The definition is broad and sloppy and America sucked up and successfully integrated people who were not one or not the other--as long as they assimilated to those norms. Every President until Kennedy was a founding stock American.

    But this bit is not just overly binary, it's ridiculous:


    If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that’s not how they were selling it.
     
    There isn't some binary secular\seminary divide. In a *free* country colleges can have whatever orientation their founders and trustees wish. For example, my brother went to Wilmington College--a Quaker school. Wilmington is "secular"--my brother, like most of the students, not a Quaker--but that doesn't mean it ceases to be "Quaker" and is going to host the Richard Perle Center for blowing shit up.

    Despite your assertions, Harvard was not--and still isn't--some sort of American ENA that belongs to the people. Harvard is a private college.

    Harvard was an institution of the Anglo-Protestant--actually "Yankee"--tribe with their culture and traditions, dedicated to educating their young for leadership. These folks are certainly a more "open" group than say Jews, but that doesn't mean they had no claims on what they've built or had to give all their stuff away.

    Furthermore there's nothing "anti-Semitic"--in any sense of the word that's not simply Jewish propaganda--about such feelings. If say the Italians were really smart, and the Italian immigration wave led to Italians ripping up the admissions test, becoming wildly over-represented at Harvard, forming greater and greater percentages of the student body ... would Harvard trustees been complacent? Of course, not. Because the Italians aren't ethno-culturally like these Yankees. Being say 40% Italian would have dramatically altered Harvard's character. People like their culture and traditons and holding onto their stuff. It's human nature. And there's nothing wrong with it.

    And again the kicker here. The Jews now in control or at least highly influential across the Ivy League are doing exactly the same to the Asians. In fact, worse. Harvard now, is much more secular, much more a national university, much more "ENA like" (or ENS like), than it was 100 back. But the folks in control ... they like Harvard the way it is and don't want it Asianified. They've clawed their way into control and ain't in the mood to give it up.

    ~~
    A final point. Jack your argument here is basically:
    "Harvard is secular and sorta functions like an American French Grand Ecole ... therefore, regardless of who created it and owns it, Jews are entitled to all the admission their test scores merit".

    I've said, my piece on that, but even if we accept that ... in the very same breath with "Harvard Jewish quotas", Jews are whining about Country Clubs of all things. Institutions that are social and certainly not in any sense public institutions!

    The more parsimonious explanation:

    Jews while maintaining themselves as an endogamous, separate people, demand that wherever they are the host society's majority must have their institutions be open and penetrable by Jews.
     
    You don't have to agree with that explanation. I don't expect Jews to. (It would distract from the esprit de corps necessary to browbeat the host majorities.) But you should be savvy enough to understand it and understand that Jewish behavior does not appear to be all Tikkun Olamy and principled to Gentiles, but rather very self-interested and self-serving.
    , @Bill

    There have been Jews and Catholics here from day 1 (hell, one of the 13 colonies was set up just for Catholics) and its just as much “ours” as anyone else’s. If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that’s not how they were selling it.
     
    There is a good point lurking in there amongst all the question-begging. Freedom of religion is a bad idea. Among other things, it opens one up to the sort of silliness on display above. The greater problem, though, is that freedom of religion is just apostasy in unconvincing drag. There will be a state religion, and if you decide your religion won't be it, then some other religion will be it.
    , @Hibernian
    About Maryland, it didn't stay Catholic long, and even in the beginning it wasn't Catholic like Massachusetts was Puritan. That wouldn't have been allowed. For a brief shining moment, it was Catholic like Pennsylvania was Quaker. (Tolerating other faiths and giving tax support to none.) Then the Anglican Church was established (tax supported) in Maryland, and as time went on Ant-Catholic laws were proposed and things looked dicey until the American Revolution.
  159. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Twinkie

    this is why Twinkie is all mad at me–he told what he saw as an inspiring story about his unending grind for good test scores and I told him that people like him are why we can’t have nice things here in America
     
    I think Mr. Sailer calls this "retconning" of past history. I am not mad at you. The kind of people at whom I am mad are, say, the ones who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. And I do something about it when I find myself mad at people.

    I find you contemptible, because you are intellectually dishonest. And this ad hominem is a fine example of it. You make personal attacks and when the target responds, your retort is the "Of course, of course, it's all about you." But when your opponent wants to talk numbers and percentages and concepts such as mismatch that even bright junior high school students can grasp, you - with your allegedly above neurosurgeon IQ - disappear.

    We get it. You didn't work hard and "had a life" in high school instead, so now you are stuck teaching cram schools or babysitting tiger babies. It's unpleasant educating other people's children who might end up somewhere nicer where you or your own kid didn't or couldn't. Now you get your gratification appealing to a certain segment of the Alt-Right or HBD movement for whom white people being better than blacks is just science/HBD while Asians being better than whites in some things is just cheating. So keep making the lives of your students miserable as you once so deliciously boasted. In this life or next, you are going to be accountable for your deeds.

    Spot on. I’ve seen this guy make resentful comments for years about Asian adolescents who he presumably makes a living tutoring. It’s about him hating where he ended up in life.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    I believe you are wrong, twice. She is simply displaying healthy levels of ``inequity aversion.'' A very healthy, and in my opinion, noble and self-less instinct to have:

    Fehr and Schmidt showed that disadvantageous inequity aversion manifests itself in humans as the “willingness to sacrifice potential gain to block another individual from receiving a superior reward”. They argue that this apparently self-destructive response is essential in creating an environment in which bilateral bargaining can thrive. Without inequity aversion’s rejection of injustice, stable cooperation would be harder to maintain (for instance, there would be more opportunities for successful free riders[/cheaters]).[3]
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469
  160. @Truth
    No Bro, the accent...never mind.

    Hey you should bone up on your country though, The angry WNs might let you stay when they take the country over in a bloody revolt and start kicking people out.

    Nah, I’m going to right into an oven once they win and make greater discoveries about the melting point of subhuman flesh :D

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  161. FKA Max says:
    @anonymous
    Spot on. I've seen this guy make resentful comments for years about Asian adolescents who he presumably makes a living tutoring. It's about him hating where he ended up in life.

    I believe you are wrong, twice. She is simply displaying healthy levels of “inequity aversion.” A very healthy, and in my opinion, noble and self-less instinct to have:

    Fehr and Schmidt showed that disadvantageous inequity aversion manifests itself in humans as the “willingness to sacrifice potential gain to block another individual from receiving a superior reward”. They argue that this apparently self-destructive response is essential in creating an environment in which bilateral bargaining can thrive. Without inequity aversion’s rejection of injustice, stable cooperation would be harder to maintain (for instance, there would be more opportunities for successful free riders[/cheaters]).[3]

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    educationrealist [she or he] and Steve are resentful that there are many Asians in NY special schools. No one is claiming that Asians cheat to get in these schools but rather take a lot of prep classes and study (or grinding as Steve again resentfully puts it).

    Many of these Asians are from low income families with parents who work in restaurants and hair salons. Their parents save money to pay for the prep classes and make sure their kids study hard. This is not any sort of free riding much less cheating.

    Steve and educationrealist are white nationalists (nothing inherently wrong with this) who like denigrating Asian kids because their study habits and good family influence on social mobility through hard work harms their racial egos about the achievement of white kids. What makes them pinheads is not that they are white nationalist but they mask it in high minded language like fair play or how you put it inequity aversion.
  162. SPMoore8 says:
    @Johnny B.
    All white ethnic groups have not seamlessly assimilated into the Anglo-American culture. New York is a perfect example of this. You have Catholic Southern European, Orthodox Jewish, and Orthodox Eastern European enclaves.

    I’ve noticed that, too, ports of entry tend to have people who cling the longest to the old ways. But heavily majority Dutch, Czech, Polish (e.g.) communities still exist in pockets around the country. And yet among New Yorkers I know, there has been a lot of outmarriage among Italians, Poles, etc. in the past 40-50 years. But that doesn’t change my main point. Assimilation is what makes the USA work.

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  163. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic
     
    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer's parlance of [they should] git gud!

    The notion of naked competition is not a foreign concept, and as she might hint at, pretty widespread even in video games and entertainment. Its essentially a large part of universal, modern culture.

    Indeed, even "grind" culture isn't really unique to Asia. Its much more universal to Confucian cultures, but as commentators to Amy Chua's Tiger Mom book have noted, its always been part of some American elites. The opposite notion of "success should come without work" was mentioned by Orwell as the fading British ideal, one that did not survive WW2 and was struggling even before that.

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!

    If I remember correctly, you mentioned in one of your earlier comments that your wife is French-Canadian, right?

    If this indeed is the case, I assume, that she is Roman-Catholic, right?

    If she is not Roman-Catholic, please disregard the following:

    Roman-Catholics generally are not known to be great lovers, defenders, and protectors of historically and traditionally WASP (and other Northern European-Protestant) cultures and countries, so she might not be the ideal person to ask for advice and feedback on this particular topic:

    Canada is rapidly becoming a Catholic nation because of this policy, and northern New England is being transformed by the Catholic overflow from Canada.
    French Catholic Canada is winning what the French Canadians call la revanche des herceaux, the revenge of the cradles.
    [...]
    Well, if you read their papers, where they point out Boston, that that’s what had happened in Boston in Massachusetts. They had simply out-bred the Protestants and they’re — they — in Boston in Massachusetts they have control.
    [...]
    James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. As a consequence, Boston stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections.

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-reality-of-red-subversion/#comment-1699584

    Let me emphasize here that the restrictionists of Congress do not claim that the “Nordic” race, or even the Anglo-Saxon race, is the best race in the world. Let us concede, in all fairness that the Czech is a more sturdy laborer … that the Jew is the best businessman in the world, and that the Italian has … a spiritual exaltation and an artistic creative sense which the Nordic rarely attains. Nordics need not be vain about their own qualifications. It well behooves them to be humble.

    What we do claim is that the northern European and particularly Anglo-Saxons made this country. Oh, yes; the others helped. But … [t]hey came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it, and they have not yet greatly changed it.

    We are determined that they shall not … It is a good country. It suits us. And what we assert is that we are not going to surrender it to somebody else or allow other people, no matter what their merits, to make it something different. If there is any changing to be done, we will do it ourselves.“[5] -Cong. Rec., April 8, 1924, 5922

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_N._Vaile

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    She's not Catholic herself, but accepts a lot of their mores; she comes from a family of over ten children, and has been insisting that we have at least half of that, for example. Her ancestry is obviously Catholic: she's descended largely - over 90% - from the original French settlement in Quebec with a slight admixture of Irish descent from one of the settlers that went to Canada instead of the US during the famine years.

    That said, I've never heard of her say anything negative about WASPs and she identifies her culture as basically American, with a lesser emphasis on French. And knowing several others, I'll say that the culture of meritocracy is indeed the modern culture; the other assumption of a more clannish culture is always avoided since it ultimately runs up against the notion of the rule of law, and nepotism becomes even more common. It naturally lends after all, that if you favor your subgroup over other subgroups, that you'll favor your family over other families, and so on.

    Most people would see that as corruption, and lead to enough inefficiencies that its not widely advocated. Frankly, its not far from the argument used by North Korea and we all now how successful that country is. You could easily argue that it doesn't matter so as long as that is what you desire, and that's perfectly fine.

    At any rate, you've repeated the nativist argument a few times. I understand it and I've answered it several times: that's fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy. Finally, I've never been in support of unlimited immigration, and rate does matter.

    But you're correct: I have a more Social Darwainian bent as does my wife. Social Darwainism, I should note, has Anglo origins as well e.g. Herbert Spencer. and as you noted, isn't even that traditional to some aspects of Chinese culture. But that's the way of modernity, so ultimately what you're advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.
    , @Hibernian
    "James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. As a consequence, Boston stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections."

    Just think of how much more fabulous Route 128, MIT, Harvard, Back Bay, Beacon Hill, and the North Shore would be if it weren't for the Irish.
  164. George says:
    @education realist
    The test is not meritocratic. It was designed for a largely white test population, with far less competition. It was designed to give an advantage to outliers--people who were particularly good in math or verbal skills, with a very high score in one and an average score in the other. Higher scores are given for someone who gets 99th percentile in one topic and a below 50 percentile in the other.

    Now, back in the 70s, this mean that priority would be given to kids with high verbal scores OR high math scores, and then there'd be plenty of room for kids with high verbal AND high math scores, and so on.

    No one understood than in fifteen years or so, the system would be overrun with kids who spoke very little English but did enough prep (without any real improvement) enough to fake a 40th percentile score on verbal and then start Saturday classes in second grade to work math problems without any genuine understanding for 6-7 years in order to get a 99th percentile on the test. No one understood that kids with 90%ile scores in both subjects might not get into any of the top ranked schools, or that kids who didn't speak or write fluent English would get higher scores than kids who both knew a lot of math and were capable of benefiting from focused Shakespeare studies. (Ironically, it's now easier to get good grades in English than math at Stuyvesant--and not because the talent is stronger. Fewer kids take humanities courses, parents bitch mightily about grades, and few of the kids are any good at all.)

    At this point, I suspect a lot of the white kids who go to Stuyvesant are those who can get in without working that hard. Going to an 80% Asian school is pretty miserable, even if you have a good sense of humor.

    I think you are overestimating the difficulty of the test. The ‘reading’ part of the test is at a true highschool level. The math is not really high school, but you probably have to get all the questions right. When I took the test there was a section on science trivia, do you know the difference between a proton and a photon type questions.

    See for yourself:

    http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/resources/testing/shsat.htm

    http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/701100A4-918F-4F2B-B592-860996626CA6/0/SHSAT_FAQ_SAMPLE_ITEMS_FINAL_v3.pdf

    ” were capable of benefiting from focused Shakespeare studies” Is that really offered at Stuy High, but not elsewhere. The problem is you assume Stuy High is the pinnacle of NYC high schools. There are others, that take non-academic things into account that are probably better and more selective. I went to Stuyvesant but was not accepted into Hunter or Edward R Murrow, go figure. Again Stuyvesant is really just like a very good suburban HS, of which there are many in the US. The difference is you buy into HS with the purchase of real estate in the suburbs.

    Stuyvesant is not that good a school. And it does not really provide a student with the advantages imagine. You may have heard NYC is a very segregated place. If your kid’s zoned HS is in a non black area, and you live more than an hour from Stuyvesant, your kid is probably better off at the local HS. The local HS probably offers calculus, and if the kid is really that smart, enroll him or her in a local college for advanced courses. Now if your kid is zoned for a majority black school you might want to take a shot at one of the specialized schools. Black majority HSs also offer calculus. The fewer number of academically talented students in typical black majority HSs means your kid will likely get special attention from the math science staff. Your kid will probably not be seriously assaulted. Your white kid might actually do better at a black majority HS than Stuyvesant.

    If a parent of an actual NYC student is reading this thread, find out how to get your kid into the program Martin Shkreli went to. That actually sound interesting and the future of top tier education.

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  165. dcite says:
    @education realist
    ". It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change."

    Well, that's your notion. It's not the one originally driving the use of test scores as a proxy. The notion was that a high test score stood for an interesting person with lots of intelligence in a wide range of areas.

    In fact, Americans (and I mean Americans, not whites) are somewhat contemptuous of those who get good grades or high test scores because of endless hard work. When anyone brags about spending 20 hours a week studying, we think it's awful and respect you less. (this is why Twinkie is all mad at me--he told what he saw as an inspiring story about his unending grind for good test scores and I told him that people like him are why we can't have nice things here in America.)

    The test scores are a proxy, with the assumption built in that only a small number of Americans would study so much that they could do well on the tests while being a really boring person whose curiosity ran no farther than the question "Will this be on the test?" Chinese and Koreans are fatal to classroom ambiance, on average.

    Your paragraph explains exactly why Asians are discriminated against. We Americans talk about hard work and grades, but only for people who are below average. Above average, we want it achieved with near effortless. Hard work only comes in when you've proven your excellence and are now trying to apply it to some achievement-oriented objective.

    We never planned on a whole race of people who thought a test score was an achievement.

    Again, assimilation takes care of this provided that we stop admitting international students and cut immigration down to nearly nothing. It's a cultural issue. And of course, culture or no, the IQ advantage will still hang around.

    In fact, Americans (and I mean Americans, not whites) are somewhat contemptuous of those who get good grades or high test scores because of endless hard work.

    They are? As Thomas Edison said, invention is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
    That wasn’t true for Tesla though, so there are exceptions.

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    • Replies: @anarchyst
    Thomas Edison was a charlatan, promoter, and opportunist who took the work of others as his own. Edison screwed Tesla out of a promised "bonus" after Tesla had worked for him for a year, by stating that "he was just joking".
    Edison's only REAL accomplishment, properly attributed to him, was creating the first modern-day research laboratory. All of his other "inventions" were actually invented by others, all who never received credit. Edison personally claimed that he invented all of his employees works.
    Tesla's main "fault" was that he was too altruistic, giving away his true inventions "to benefit all of mankind". He saved Westinghouse by revoking his contracts for royalties on polyphase electric motors. Tesla was too much of a "nice guy". He could have been a millionaire, but that was not his nature. He died in obscurity...
    Tesla did more to uplift humanity than Edison ever could...the praise heaped on Edison, to this day, is misplaced...
  166. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity. Even though black and Latino students make up nearly 70 percent of public high school students in the city, they routinely represent only 10 percent of those offered admission to the specialized high schools. This year the city offered admission to only 524 black and Latino students.”

    Do these nuts who write these things have any idea how blatantly flawed their logic is? It can’t be meritocratic because blacks and Hispanics wind up grossly underrepresented? Its like if we put a class of Engineering 101 students together with their college football team in a competition to see who met the qualifications to get into the NFL, it couldn’t possibly be meritocratic if there were fewer engineers getting in.

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  167. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @anarchyst
    Another aspect to the "Asian model" is the quest to be technically accurate, when it comes to music. There are many talented Asians who have taken up the piano or violin. Other instruments, such as guitar or wind instruments are generally frowned upon. Their performances are technically accurate, but they have no "soul". It seems that, in their quest for technical accuracy, something gets "lost"...you see, speaking as a professional musician, a little "slop" (variation) in the performance adds to the human aspect of music. The little imperfections, straying off the sheet music actually adds to the performance...something that Asians generally do not have...
    Just my two cents...

    Other instruments, such as guitar or wind instruments are generally frowned upon.

    You mean like these?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjm1-fHeUQ8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc3L-mONqVk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA0ysAWPPRo

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  168. George–don’t you think that the english part being “really easy” and yet still advantaging those who score in the 45th percentile is a problem?

    Res–I was talking about the NY Test, were you? It has a different scoring system. I don’t think the same problem occurs in the SAT (where they don’t always total anyway).

    As for my resenting anyone: please. I love teaching. I loved tutoring, which was less work for a reasonable amount of money. And before that, I enjoyed working in tech, where, like tutoring, I averaged about 25 hours a week on average for a decade or more. I’m not ambitious. I like independence. And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth despite my aversion to long hours and money obsession.

    Twinkie’s just mad because I’m not impressed with his resume. He keeps hoping that if he writes 10,000 words to me for every one I mention of his, people will think he’s the better guy.

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    • Replies: @res

    Res–I was talking about the NY Test, were you? It has a different scoring system. I don’t think the same problem occurs in the SAT (where they don’t always total anyway).
     
    No, I was off on the SAT. Thanks for clarifying. Could you elaborate on the flaws in the NY test? Or point to a place it has already been discussed?
    , @Twinkie

    Twinkie’s just mad because I’m not impressed with his resume.
     
    Use your awesome white creative writing powers and try some new insults. Grinding out the same kindergarten insult day in and day out is boring.

    What is more, for someone who claims not to read what I write, you sure do refer to me a lot. But, of course, you being you, you have to be passive-aggressive about it. If you want a pissing contest, have the balls (unless you don't have any, in which case you are excused, ma'am) to address your opponent directly, instead of making snide remarks from the sidelines like a fat kid watching athletes from the bleachers.

    As for my resenting anyone: please. I love teaching. I loved tutoring, which was less work for a reasonable amount of money. And before that, I enjoyed working in tech, where, like tutoring, I averaged about 25 hours a week on average for a decade or more. I’m not ambitious. I like independence. And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth despite my aversion to long hours and money obsession.
     
    Fired for effect. And there is effect! It might be more credible, if you were to insert "really" in every sentence, e.g. "I REALLY love teaching," "I REALLY loved tutoring." "And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth" was a particularly nice "name-dropping" touch. Something tells me that you status-crave, but don't have any.
    , @George
    don’t you think that the english part being “really easy”

    You talking to me? This is the Stuy High and others test page.
    http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/resources/testing/shsat.htm

    The English test is not easy, it is actually the math section that is too easy.

    When I was there in the 70s, for the most part, the Asians could speak English just fine. Maybe not brilliant, but fine.
  169. Johnny B. says:

    I’m starting to think education realist might be a brotha. There’s something very soulful about his aggression and butthurt. Probably lives in California somewhere.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I’m starting to think education realist might be a brotha.
     
    I don't know about that, but she occasionally repeats the assertion that IQ and standardized tests under-predict black cognitive ability, which is completely unsupported by evidence.
  170. res says:
    @education realist
    George--don't you think that the english part being "really easy" and yet still advantaging those who score in the 45th percentile is a problem?

    Res--I was talking about the NY Test, were you? It has a different scoring system. I don't think the same problem occurs in the SAT (where they don't always total anyway).

    As for my resenting anyone: please. I love teaching. I loved tutoring, which was less work for a reasonable amount of money. And before that, I enjoyed working in tech, where, like tutoring, I averaged about 25 hours a week on average for a decade or more. I'm not ambitious. I like independence. And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth despite my aversion to long hours and money obsession.

    Twinkie's just mad because I'm not impressed with his resume. He keeps hoping that if he writes 10,000 words to me for every one I mention of his, people will think he's the better guy.

    Res–I was talking about the NY Test, were you? It has a different scoring system. I don’t think the same problem occurs in the SAT (where they don’t always total anyway).

    No, I was off on the SAT. Thanks for clarifying. Could you elaborate on the flaws in the NY test? Or point to a place it has already been discussed?

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  171. Twinkie says:
    @FKA Max
    Personally, I feel that his ``Clash of Civilizations'' theory/framework has aged extremely well. There is, however , the possibility that his theory so greatly influenced world leaders, that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is a rumor, for example, that Putin invaded eastern Ukraine because he believed/agreed with Huntington's analysis, that it is a ``cleft country,'' which will eventually/is destined to brake apart along cultural/civilizational lines.

    But you are correct, that he, for example, does not distinguish between Protestant and Catholic culture within Western Civilization, which is a bit annoying to me, because I feel this distinction has extreme significance (as you will see and read, if you browse through my commenting history here at the Unz Review); he just uses the generic ``Christian,'' and even calls the U.S. a traditionally ``Christian'' country, when it is clearly a traditionally and historically Protestant county and culture. Very, very annoying to me, because it gives the Catholic Church immense power, cover, and protection in the U.S. for all kinds of nefarious activities, e.g., advocating for open borders towards Latin America, because they are ``Christians'' just like us.

    I also wanted to add, that I admire traditional Chinese culture. I have been studying Feng Shui for over 15+ years now.

    What we see today as Sinic/Chinese culture/civilization is really the Chinese Communist Party civilization/culture and not traditional Chinese civilization/culture, in my opinion. However, most Chinese coming over here to the U.S. have the Chinese Communist Party/Social Darwinist/cram school mindset, instead of the Feng Shui mindset.

    Maybe, if Sinic Civilization was more based on Feng Shui principles again, like in Hong Kong and in Taiwan, it would be more compatible and have less of an adversarial relationship with Western Civilization? I think/believe so.

    The same could be said about Islamic Civilization. If it was more based on the Sufi tradition, instead of the Arab/Wahhabi tradition, things would probably go more smoothly between our civilizations, cultures, and peoples.

    But we need to be realistic, and face the reality/facts, that this is currently most decidedly not the case, unfortunately. But things can change. Hope dies last.

    Personally, I feel that his “Clash of Civilizations” theory/framework has aged extremely well.

    It’s one of those theories that looks good from afar, but doesn’t stand up well to close scrutiny.

    There is, however , the possibility that his theory so greatly influenced world leaders, that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Yes.

    Very, very annoying to me, because it gives the Catholic Church immense power, cover, and protection in the U.S. for all kinds of nefarious activities, e.g., advocating for open borders towards Latin America, because they are “Christians” just like us.

    You know I am Catholic, right? Of course, I am not exactly a Nancy Pelosi Catholic, so…

    I also wanted to add, that I admire traditional Chinese culture. I have been studying Feng Shui for over 15+ years now.

    I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I do NOT admire traditional Chinese culture and I think Feng Shui is superstition.

    By th way, one thing to keep in mind is that Chinese =/= Asian. When we discuss Asian immigrant groups in the U.S., we are talking about fairly diverse lot with different cultures and rates of assimilation. Even among East Asians, Chinese-, Korean-, and Japanese-Americans display significant differences in many ways.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max

    I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I do NOT admire traditional Chinese culture and I think Feng Shui is superstition.
     
    No offense taken.

    I feel in good company:


    and may also refer to their interest in Eastern religions, fostered perhaps by the impact in the 19th century of the transcendentalist writings of New England literary icons such as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Walt Whitman, and the enlightened appeal of Universalist Unitarian movements of the same period.
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin

    Thank you for being so respectful in your replies. I hope you can forgive me for my feuding with your Church, it's personal, I have Huguenot ancestry, it must be genetic memory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(psychology)

    The exodus of Huguenots from France created a brain drain, as many Huguenots had occupied important places in society. The kingdom did not fully recover for years.
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenots#Effects
  172. Twinkie says:
    @Truth

    We get it. You didn’t work hard and “had a life” in high school instead, so now you are stuck teaching cram schools or babysitting tiger babies. It’s unpleasant educating other people’s children who might end up somewhere nicer where you or your own kid didn’t or couldn’t. Now you get your gratification appealing to a certain segment of the Alt-Right or HBD movement for whom white people being better than blacks is just science/HBD while Asians being better than whites in some things is just cheating. So keep making the lives of your students miserable as you once so deliciously boasted. In this life or next, you are going to be accountable for your deeds.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6tIf8ZWSFc

    I don’t speak Seinfeld, so you will have to translate. Bonus points if you could do an interpretative dance version. Self-record and post online, why don’t ya?

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Translate a laugh?!?

    Well it's generally a spontaneous human expression of joy that follows what one feels is a humorous event.

    I knew Stuyvesant / Ivy League guys were taciturn, but you learn something every day.

  173. Twinkie says:
    @education realist
    George--don't you think that the english part being "really easy" and yet still advantaging those who score in the 45th percentile is a problem?

    Res--I was talking about the NY Test, were you? It has a different scoring system. I don't think the same problem occurs in the SAT (where they don't always total anyway).

    As for my resenting anyone: please. I love teaching. I loved tutoring, which was less work for a reasonable amount of money. And before that, I enjoyed working in tech, where, like tutoring, I averaged about 25 hours a week on average for a decade or more. I'm not ambitious. I like independence. And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth despite my aversion to long hours and money obsession.

    Twinkie's just mad because I'm not impressed with his resume. He keeps hoping that if he writes 10,000 words to me for every one I mention of his, people will think he's the better guy.

    Twinkie’s just mad because I’m not impressed with his resume.

    Use your awesome white creative writing powers and try some new insults. Grinding out the same kindergarten insult day in and day out is boring.

    What is more, for someone who claims not to read what I write, you sure do refer to me a lot. But, of course, you being you, you have to be passive-aggressive about it. If you want a pissing contest, have the balls (unless you don’t have any, in which case you are excused, ma’am) to address your opponent directly, instead of making snide remarks from the sidelines like a fat kid watching athletes from the bleachers.

    As for my resenting anyone: please. I love teaching. I loved tutoring, which was less work for a reasonable amount of money. And before that, I enjoyed working in tech, where, like tutoring, I averaged about 25 hours a week on average for a decade or more. I’m not ambitious. I like independence. And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth despite my aversion to long hours and money obsession.

    Fired for effect. And there is effect! It might be more credible, if you were to insert “really” in every sentence, e.g. “I REALLY love teaching,” “I REALLY loved tutoring.” “And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth” was a particularly nice “name-dropping” touch. Something tells me that you status-crave, but don’t have any.

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  174. Twinkie says:
    @res

    As a corollary to sport, I have a friend who was a minor league baseball player. He worked extremely hard and was pretty good, but not good enough for the Major League. He found that there were naturally (genetically, if you will) gifted people who worked just as hard as he did. He realized that there was just no physical way for him to outcompete someone who worked just hard as he did yet had greater natural talent. There just weren’t enough hours in a day to make up the deficit.
     
    The thing I find most amazing (and instructive) is that I think the gap between that athlete and me is much larger than the gap between him and a major leaguer. To try to put numbers on it say I am average athletically (I can make arguments for +/- 1 SD IMHO, with realized results compatible with that, working hard, and some specific abilities). The minor leaguer is perhaps +3-4 SD (i.e. 1 in 400-15k) where the major leaguer is probably between 4SD and 5SD (1 in 2 million!). The dropoff in frequency by SD at that level is astonishing. FWIW my sense is one can make up 1 and maybe 2 SD of ability by working harder/exceptionally harder than someone else. At the center of the distribution this means it is quite easy to move up greatly in a percentile sense with hard work which is not true at the extreme.

    I think a three characteristic model is instructive here (as is its intellectual analog). The three characteristics are general athletic ability, sport specific ability, and work ethic. As a thought experiment, measure them with Z scores (SD) and sum them to get a total (yes, both steps are hugely arguable). Given the shape of the normal curve and an assumption that the three characteristics are largely uncorrelated (again, very arguable) it is most likely to see people with roughly equal skills at the highest levels. For example, 1 in 400 * 400 * 400 = 64e6 (3SD x 3) is more common than 20 * 400 * 15,000 = 120e6 (2,3,4 SD) and much more common than 3 * 400 * 2e6 = 2.4e9 (1,3,5 SD).

    What do others think about this way of looking at this?

    P.S. Frequencies approximated from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution#Standard_deviation_and_coverage

    I think the gap between that athlete and me is much larger than the gap between him and a major leaguer.

    Oh, yes.

    In fact, at the highest level of just about any competitive athletics, the gap is so small that just a little bit of “relaxation” can take a champion from crushing dominance to a humiliating defeat. I see that in the fight game all the time. That’s why it’s hard to stay on top – because success, fame, and having money makes champions soft and make them easier targets for the up-and-comers (see Rocky III for a cinematic treatment of this phenomenon). It really takes a special athlete, with the accompanying, unique mentality, to “stay hungry” and be able to kill himself physicially and mentally every day to remain sharp and at the top of his game.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    It also helps to be born with an insane level of competitiveness. - the kind that makes you treat every game like it's the Super Bowl, because you HATE HATE HATE to lose. See Brady, Tom, etc.
  175. Twinkie says:
    @AnotherDad

    But Harvard was starting to “tip” Jewish and they had to find another way so they invented the entire “holistic” system we have today because even in the 1920s you couldn’t just baldly and openly discriminate against Jews at Harvard – it had to be done in this genteel deniable way.
     
    The "Ivy League Jewish Quotas" topic is one a little window into the Jewish mentality and the disaster that's befallen the West. And one of the striking things is how Jews--even ones who seem nominally smart--seem almost incapable of any conception of anyone else's view of the world.

    The essentially essence of that mentality:
    "What is ours is ours. What is yours is ours"
    Deviation from that => anti-Semitism.

    I see no legal, ethnical or moral issue with the Anglo-Protestants who founded these Ivy League--private!--universities wanting to keep them Anglo-Protestant in orientation, student body or "sensibility". If they wanted to stay *all* Anglo-Protestant, that would be peachy. They built 'em, they own 'em. Certainly my Catholic ancestors--ok not *my* ancestors who moved to Iowa and got to work, but others--felt a bit at odds with the Anglo aristocracy ... and so built their own damn universities. But for Jews it's another little nugget they can obsess over.

    Jews have spent the last couple thousand years defining their community and loyalty genetically rather than geographically, *refusing* any integration with the locals, and in fact concocting specific religious strictures against fraternization with outsiders. But some Protestants want to--sort of--do their own thing--in fact, not even exclude Jews (unlike Jews they have a larger more geographic concept of loyalty) but simply maintain the character of and control over their own institutions--and it's some sort of crime against humanity?

    Furthermore, Jews are always blathering on about themselves, patting themselves on their back about their superior--argumentative and talky--culture. But of course if it is notable or superior, than it also by definition must be "different". So why wouldn't Protestants think ... "hey we don't really want our college to be 50% Jewish as the place will have a decidedly different character"? I'm sure no Jewish university would want to become say 50% evangelical much less 50% muslim. Pretty obvious stuff.

    ~~~

    This isn't something I obsess over, so a quick search last night to see "what up". This from the Jewish side, so if anything spun to their favor:
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/harvard-s-jewish-problem
    This great anti-Semitism was a Harvard president suggesting a generous Jewish quota of 15%. (I.e. limited Jews to merely a large over-representation rather than a massive one.) And apparently they didn't even implement such a quota. Rather they actually opened up geographically and pulled kids from all over--making Harvard more representative, "look more like America"--that's the "Jewish quota", that's a great anti-Semitic crime.

    And now that the Jews are in control ... they have clearly slapped a--pretty solid--quota on Asians, who are simply doing the same thing the Jews did a century back--tearing up the admissions test. Asian populations ramp up, their domination of the scores ramps up even faster, but somehow their Ivy populations just sort of sit there ... just a notch or two above that egregiously repressive 15%. But of course, that quota is not the crime of "anti-Asianism" it's ... uh ... "character" and "diversity". And, of course, unlike the old school Protestants, the Jews don't talk honestly about what they are doing, much less their motives.

    Hey, I get it. I have no desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Asians either. (I could see that the heavy Asian presence at my kids' school--UW--actually made the college experience worse. The Chinese-Chinese students in particular don't just take up space, they degrade the public-community space for others.) But then I don't have a desire to trot off to school with a bunch of Jews either. Though my best friends (from grad school) are Asian-Indians, I find white-gentile dominated environments to be the most pleasant, friendly and fun. I'm a white gentile so no surprise. (Though truth be told, we white gentiles just objectively build better more open, more pleasant communities and nations. It's what we do.) Blacks or Jews or Asians or Hispanics might find other environments more congenial--which is fine. But Jews'--discrimination ok for me, but not for thee thing--is just a boatload of crap.

    Though my best friends (from grad school) are Asian-Indians

    Why is this so when you “find white-gentile dominated environments to be the most pleasant, friendly and fun”? Are you a glutton for punishment?

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  176. Twinkie says:
    @Truth



    Instead, America got a race-traitor yellow man, who went around the world committing war crimes and murdering innocent Muslim peace activists, all the while giving aid and comfort to the anti-Semitic, black-hating KKK racists (aka “the Republican party” and the so-called conservatives), who even now is raising a brood of racist, homophobic children with toxic, evil ideology such as American sovereignty and Christianity.

    I should just commit Seppuku, but my life-hating medievalist death cult called the Catholic Church told me that was a bad idea, because it needs me to stay alive and screw America some more with my toxic ideology.
     
    Yeah come to think of it, you have F-ed up enough for three lifetimes, but it's all good Dawg, you still my boy.

    Yeah come to think of it, you have F-ed up enough for three lifetimes, but it’s all good Dawg, you still my boy.

    Weak. Work on your rap-fu some more.

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  177. FKA Max says:
    @Twinkie

    Personally, I feel that his “Clash of Civilizations” theory/framework has aged extremely well.
     
    It's one of those theories that looks good from afar, but doesn't stand up well to close scrutiny.

    There is, however , the possibility that his theory so greatly influenced world leaders, that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
     
    Yes.

    Very, very annoying to me, because it gives the Catholic Church immense power, cover, and protection in the U.S. for all kinds of nefarious activities, e.g., advocating for open borders towards Latin America, because they are “Christians” just like us.
     
    You know I am Catholic, right? Of course, I am not exactly a Nancy Pelosi Catholic, so...

    I also wanted to add, that I admire traditional Chinese culture. I have been studying Feng Shui for over 15+ years now.
     
    I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I do NOT admire traditional Chinese culture and I think Feng Shui is superstition.

    By th way, one thing to keep in mind is that Chinese =/= Asian. When we discuss Asian immigrant groups in the U.S., we are talking about fairly diverse lot with different cultures and rates of assimilation. Even among East Asians, Chinese-, Korean-, and Japanese-Americans display significant differences in many ways.

    I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I do NOT admire traditional Chinese culture and I think Feng Shui is superstition.

    No offense taken.

    I feel in good company:

    and may also refer to their interest in Eastern religions, fostered perhaps by the impact in the 19th century of the transcendentalist writings of New England literary icons such as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Walt Whitman, and the enlightened appeal of Universalist Unitarian movements of the same period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin

    Thank you for being so respectful in your replies. I hope you can forgive me for my feuding with your Church, it’s personal, I have Huguenot ancestry, it must be genetic memory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(psychology)

    The exodus of Huguenots from France created a brain drain, as many Huguenots had occupied important places in society. The kingdom did not fully recover for years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenots#Effects

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  178. @Twinkie
    Some serious points:

    1. Stuyvesant is not made up of Asian "grinds" and white well-balanced and creative geniuses. It is made up of Asian grinds and white grinds (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/nyregion/cram-schools-no-longer-just-an-asian-pursuit.html) - the kinds of kids whose parents cannot afford world-helping spring trips to exotic locales to build "character" and "leadership" (see no. 2 below).

    2. Although Stuyvesant HS might be cognitively elite, it is by no means elite in the social status sense. Not. Even. Close. It is not nor has it ever been so (never mind that it originally began as a vocational school for ethnic urchins in the area, hardly an auspicious origin story for an elite institution). Even 30-40 years ago, it was a pathway for bright middle and lower class students whose parents could not afford the real elite status prep schools (except, of course, reasonably bright, if not cognitively elite, NAM children who are more precious than hedge funds to such schools). Such elite parents - white or Asian - don't send their children to the likes of Stuyvesant, Bronx Science or Brooklyn Tech.

    3. If one even casually peruses the 2017 data above, these are the respective percentages of "respective test takers who received an offer, by ethnicity":

    Asian: 31.9%
    White: 28.1%
    Latino: 6.5%
    Black: 3.8%

    Play the "which two of these are not like the other two" game. The idea of a black-white alliance on this score is laughable given this rather simple, stark fact. Unless, of course, one is talking about black-Jewish alliance. But that kind of talk is evil anti-Semitism and racism, you know, straight out of that neo-Nazi character played by Michael Rappaport in the documentary education film "Higher Learning."

    4. While I am glad that public schools such as Stuyvesant exists where smart Asian and white pupils in high black-Hispanic population areas can study in peace, I would never send my own children to one like it. It doesn't teach the love of what is sacred and holy. It doesn't teach courage, sacrifice, and camaraderie. It doesn't teach patriotism. Despite its cognitively elite status, it is essentially a gateway to advanced vocational training (as future lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc.). It is not a breeding ground for those who are truly equipped to lead, and sacrifice for, the country at large.

    And frankly in the larger scheme of things (from a purely "practical" point of view), it is not all that important. It makes a frequent appearance on this blog for some reason (perhaps because of the "let's bash the Asian 'grinds'" angle), but there apparently isn't that kind of obsessive coverage about schools that actually matter more in the power and status sense, such as Exeter, Andover, St. Albans or even Sidwell Friends. After all, that's actually where the "right kind of people" send their children to be inculcated.

    4. While I am glad that public schools such as Stuyvesant exists where smart Asian and white pupils in high black-Hispanic population areas can study in peace, I would never send my own children to one like it. It doesn’t teach the love of what is sacred and holy. It doesn’t teach courage, sacrifice, and camaraderie. It doesn’t teach patriotism.

    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?
     
    I homeschool, and my oldest is headed to a Catholic military school. At my household, we begin every morning with a Pledge of Allegiance.

    Parents are the first and most important teachers of their children. I have inculcated my children in what I believe in and hold dear - God, country, community, and family.
  179. @Twinkie

    the system would be overrun with kids who spoke very little English but did enough prep (without any real improvement) enough to fake a 40th percentile score on verbal and then start Saturday classes in second grade to work math problems without any genuine understanding for 6-7 years in order to get a 99th percentile on the test.
     
    This is a complete nonsense. In my day, students who faked "a 40th percentile score on verbal" would have washed out of Dr. Irgang's AP American History class in a day. Indeed, people who faked a 40th percentile score on verbal wouldn't be getting 90th, 95th or 99th percentile in SAT Verbal a few years later. Ever hear of mismatch?

    Whites have a slightly higher SAT verbal average than Asian students in the U.S., but the interesting thing is the gap disappears as income rises. At the household income level of $70,000 (1995 dollars, I think), the verbal scores of Asians and whites are identical.

    And " work[ing] math problems without any genuine understanding..." Seriously? Are you still pushing that fantasy?

    And “work[ing] math problems without any genuine understanding…” Seriously? Are you still pushing that fantasy?

    I’ve done that plenty of times in math class before I finally internalized why the algorithms I perform work. If I were better at memorizing things I’d probably be able to do even more math that I don’t really understand.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there are students out there who overrely on their memorization abilities to see them through math classes. Students who are capable of performing grade n math, but only understand grade n-2 math, say.

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  180. @Daniel Chieh

    In doing so, I’m showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic
     
    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer's parlance of [they should] git gud!

    The notion of naked competition is not a foreign concept, and as she might hint at, pretty widespread even in video games and entertainment. Its essentially a large part of universal, modern culture.

    Indeed, even "grind" culture isn't really unique to Asia. Its much more universal to Confucian cultures, but as commentators to Amy Chua's Tiger Mom book have noted, its always been part of some American elites. The opposite notion of "success should come without work" was mentioned by Orwell as the fading British ideal, one that did not survive WW2 and was struggling even before that.

    git gud

    Ah, gamer parlance!

    The following also seems apropos: “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard.”

    At any rate, what seems to be at issue is the population of asians whose abilities and in-class interestingness are misoverestimated by usual college admissions techniques. None of my asian friends were, or are, boring grinds, but I can imagine that quite a few are (at least while they’re being shoved into it by their parents).

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard”

    This probably could explain the entire thread.
  181. @res
    I'm curious how much everyone here thinks the Asian grind conversation is pretty much a retread of 20th century conversations about Jews and academics? For example, take a look at this book page and consider how it would read replacing Jew with Asian and shifting the POV a few decades.

    P.S. I wish Google Books supported cut and paste.

    That’s basically Thomas Sowell’s “Are Jews Generic?”, an essay in Black Rednecks and White Liberals.

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  182. Twinkie says:
    @Stationary Feast

    4. While I am glad that public schools such as Stuyvesant exists where smart Asian and white pupils in high black-Hispanic population areas can study in peace, I would never send my own children to one like it. It doesn’t teach the love of what is sacred and holy. It doesn’t teach courage, sacrifice, and camaraderie. It doesn’t teach patriotism.
     
    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?

    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?

    I homeschool, and my oldest is headed to a Catholic military school. At my household, we begin every morning with a Pledge of Allegiance.

    Parents are the first and most important teachers of their children. I have inculcated my children in what I believe in and hold dear – God, country, community, and family.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Truth
    You don't feel that the pledge is a blaspheme? I have read arguments over this, and I believe pledging allegiance to the flag is most likely an intentional distancing from God and Christianity. The American flag, as the argument goes, is a false idol, and the pledge is worship.

    Your world and your habits are brought to you by the same Fremason/Satanists that run the world's system of culture, identity, and economics, and have for over 150 years.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/the_blasphemy_of_flag_worship
  183. Twinkie says:
    @Stationary Feast

    And “work[ing] math problems without any genuine understanding…” Seriously? Are you still pushing that fantasy?
     
    I've done that plenty of times in math class before I finally internalized why the algorithms I perform work. If I were better at memorizing things I'd probably be able to do even more math that I don't really understand.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there are students out there who overrely on their memorization abilities to see them through math classes. Students who are capable of performing grade n math, but only understand grade n-2 math, say.

    That works up to a point.

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  184. Twinkie says:
    @Johnny B.
    I'm starting to think education realist might be a brotha. There's something very soulful about his aggression and butthurt. Probably lives in California somewhere.

    I’m starting to think education realist might be a brotha.

    I don’t know about that, but she occasionally repeats the assertion that IQ and standardized tests under-predict black cognitive ability, which is completely unsupported by evidence.

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  185. George says:
    @education realist
    George--don't you think that the english part being "really easy" and yet still advantaging those who score in the 45th percentile is a problem?

    Res--I was talking about the NY Test, were you? It has a different scoring system. I don't think the same problem occurs in the SAT (where they don't always total anyway).

    As for my resenting anyone: please. I love teaching. I loved tutoring, which was less work for a reasonable amount of money. And before that, I enjoyed working in tech, where, like tutoring, I averaged about 25 hours a week on average for a decade or more. I'm not ambitious. I like independence. And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth despite my aversion to long hours and money obsession.

    Twinkie's just mad because I'm not impressed with his resume. He keeps hoping that if he writes 10,000 words to me for every one I mention of his, people will think he's the better guy.

    don’t you think that the english part being “really easy”

    You talking to me? This is the Stuy High and others test page.

    http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/resources/testing/shsat.htm

    The English test is not easy, it is actually the math section that is too easy.

    When I was there in the 70s, for the most part, the Asians could speak English just fine. Maybe not brilliant, but fine.

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    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for the informative link. I did not see a quantification of English/math ease there. Here are some more links.

    Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_High_Schools_Admissions_Test
    I see that aligns with ER's earlier comment. From wiki:

    A November 2005, a New York Times article found that students scoring in the 90th percentile on both sections would not gain admittance to their first choice schools; meanwhile those scoring in the 99th percentile on one section and the 50th percentile on the other, would.[14] This happens because the final grade and percentile represent the total score and the curve within sections.
     
    I think the example in the NYT article (reference 14) was even more stunning:
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9500EEDD133EF931A25752C1A9639C8B63&legacy=true

    Last year, for instance, a student with a 99 percentile score in math and 49 percentile in verbal would have been admitted to Stuyvesant High School -- the most coveted specialized school -- but a student with a 97 in math and 92 in verbal would not.
     
    That certainly does seem unreasonable to me. But, I'm assuming there is not an issue with truncating the percentile and they really mean something like 99.99. And reading closer I see the scores were really 291, or 41 questions answered correctly vs. 369/50 so my assumption might be violated (that's a 26% increase in score and 22% difference in raw score!).

    This link has some good information on SHSAT scoring details: http://testprepshsat.com/shsat-strategy/
    including 2006 verbal/math frequency distributions! Which are quite different from each other. The verbal test has a much fatter right tail.

    Looking at the math distribution it looks like a perfect score is better than 99.9%. I find it defensible to select for talent that uncommon and find the NYT characterization of that as 99% misleading. For perspective, per https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SATIQ.aspx the IQs matching those percentiles are 146 and 135 (about 0.75SD difference). 97% is 128 so the difference between 99.9% and 99% is actually larger in an ability sense than the difference between 99% and 97%.

    Note that the SHSAT is currently being redone so all of this information will be obsolete soon. I guess one of the ways we "close gaps" is to ensure frequent enough change that nobody can get a handle on what is going on and/or make comparisons across time (e.g. the SAT).
  186. Hibernian says:
    @Jason Liu
    So what's discriminatory about any of this?

    This the part when some asshole comes out and claims the left isn't about equal outcomes, just equal opportunities, except all unequal outcomes are caused by unequal opportunities and nothing else.

    Holistic review has always been code for "egalitarian bullshit". It should be rejected regardless of the school's racial makeup.

    Holistic review also would be a lot of real work for the public school bureaucracy who are not to be confused with the staff at Harvard.

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  187. Hibernian says:
    @Marina
    The impression I get is that the purpose of the Ivies is to try and pick the next generation's elite while maintaining certain kinds of large university amenities. This is different from the most talented, intelligent, high scoring or even well-rounded mix of interesting American young people. This is why they ask where your parents went to college and where they work, even though this should be irrelevant.

    At my prep school, probably half the HYP admissions were for students who met the needs of the school at that specific time. I knew someone who got into Harvard because she played the right position in the right team sport and their current player in that position was graduating. She had good but not spectacular grades, but basically, she got lucky. If she'd been six months younger and a grade lower in school and otherwise identical, she never would have gotten in. I know someone who got into an Ivy because the music program needed a certain instrumentalist and he had good grades and was excellent at that instrument. Again, bright and talented and he probably had no problem doing well in the coursework, but he was far from the brightest, most interesting or well rounded kid that year.

    Then there will always be a sport for the Obama/Clinton/Bush/Trump children and there will probably always be slots for the children of foreign (including Asian) leaders and royals. Same thing for the kids of business and some entertainment elites. Whites from outside the coasts and especially outside cities will be very underrepresented. Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren't elite. Deng Xiaopeng's kid is going to get into Harvard over the brightest, most interesting, well rounded Asian American who is a three sport varsity athlete and academic superstar, but then Chelsea Clinton would get in over the white version of this kid too.

    Then there are a few slots for the genuine geniuses: the 17 year old who is obviously a national superstar in field X or whatever. Then there are the AA admits. The legacies or rich kids that got a thumb on the scale. At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.

    “Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren’t elite.”

    For which read: Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they mean you are a potential leader of a future redneck rebellion. (Ironically, my left wing doctor cousin as a young kid was in 4-H in an inner ring suburb of Chicago; it was a leftover from when this suburb was a semi-rural exurb.

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  188. anarchyst says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I'll agree that while a college degree is useful, the entire Ivy League university humping isn't evident to me as being all that valuable, especially once a few years of experience are down the line. There's a body of work in previous job experience which shows more than an overpriced degree versus a community college degree.

    Really, companies shouldn't for purely business reasons. The number of social justice classes that one has been able to get through tells you next to nothing about the candidate's job capabilities.

    HR might be impressed by that, and in that sense, they might be a gatekeeper. In the companies I've been in, including a few Forbes 100 ones, though, the management only vaguely gives any credit to HR opinion, which is usually quite useless.

    You make a very good point. Enlightened companies will look beyond the “college degree”. However, HR departments, quite often control hiring decisions, especially in large companies…it is necessary to get past HR and contact the principles directly, which is sometimes difficult to do.
    Regards,

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  189. anarchyst says:
    @dcite

    In fact, Americans (and I mean Americans, not whites) are somewhat contemptuous of those who get good grades or high test scores because of endless hard work.
     
    They are? As Thomas Edison said, invention is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
    That wasn't true for Tesla though, so there are exceptions.

    Thomas Edison was a charlatan, promoter, and opportunist who took the work of others as his own. Edison screwed Tesla out of a promised “bonus” after Tesla had worked for him for a year, by stating that “he was just joking”.
    Edison’s only REAL accomplishment, properly attributed to him, was creating the first modern-day research laboratory. All of his other “inventions” were actually invented by others, all who never received credit. Edison personally claimed that he invented all of his employees works.
    Tesla’s main “fault” was that he was too altruistic, giving away his true inventions “to benefit all of mankind”. He saved Westinghouse by revoking his contracts for royalties on polyphase electric motors. Tesla was too much of a “nice guy”. He could have been a millionaire, but that was not his nature. He died in obscurity…
    Tesla did more to uplift humanity than Edison ever could…the praise heaped on Edison, to this day, is misplaced…

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  190. reezy says:
    @SPMoore8
    The "white people" who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all "Americans". And I am living testimony to this, since my family has been marrying out in this country for over 200 years (and yes I have all of Europe covered).

    On the other hand we have failed to assimilate our African sourced population, and while I expect we will eventually absorb our Latino, Muslim/Arab, East Asian, and South Asian populations it will be a lot harder to do so if they keep streaming into the country unchecked and if each of these groups seeks to establish their own group privileges.

    The “white people” who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all “Americans”.

    Sure, but the cultural/genetic distances between these various ethnic groups of whites are at least an order of magnitude less than the distances between any of them are to the other continental races. Sufficiently large quantitative differences can produce very tangible and easily categorizable qualitative differences.

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  191. Truth says:
    @Twinkie
    I don't speak Seinfeld, so you will have to translate. Bonus points if you could do an interpretative dance version. Self-record and post online, why don't ya?

    Translate a laugh?!?

    Well it’s generally a spontaneous human expression of joy that follows what one feels is a humorous event.

    I knew Stuyvesant / Ivy League guys were taciturn, but you learn something every day.

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  192. @Stationary Feast

    git gud
     
    Ah, gamer parlance!

    The following also seems apropos: "anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard."

    At any rate, what seems to be at issue is the population of asians whose abilities and in-class interestingness are misoverestimated by usual college admissions techniques. None of my asian friends were, or are, boring grinds, but I can imagine that quite a few are (at least while they're being shoved into it by their parents).

    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard”

    This probably could explain the entire thread.

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    • Replies: @res
    Another variant is George Carlin's "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"
    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgecarl391403.html

    Still another variant is that intelligence is key up until my IQ, but irrelevant beyond that (see IQ threshold theory ; ).
  193. Truth says:
    @Twinkie

    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?
     
    I homeschool, and my oldest is headed to a Catholic military school. At my household, we begin every morning with a Pledge of Allegiance.

    Parents are the first and most important teachers of their children. I have inculcated my children in what I believe in and hold dear - God, country, community, and family.

    You don’t feel that the pledge is a blaspheme? I have read arguments over this, and I believe pledging allegiance to the flag is most likely an intentional distancing from God and Christianity. The American flag, as the argument goes, is a false idol, and the pledge is worship.

    Your world and your habits are brought to you by the same Fremason/Satanists that run the world’s system of culture, identity, and economics, and have for over 150 years.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/the_blasphemy_of_flag_worship

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  194. @FKA Max

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!
     
    If I remember correctly, you mentioned in one of your earlier comments that your wife is French-Canadian, right?

    If this indeed is the case, I assume, that she is Roman-Catholic, right?

    If she is not Roman-Catholic, please disregard the following:

    Roman-Catholics generally are not known to be great lovers, defenders, and protectors of historically and traditionally WASP (and other Northern European-Protestant) cultures and countries, so she might not be the ideal person to ask for advice and feedback on this particular topic:

    Canada is rapidly becoming a Catholic nation because of this policy, and northern New England is being transformed by the Catholic overflow from Canada.
    French Catholic Canada is winning what the French Canadians call la revanche des herceaux, the revenge of the cradles.
    [...]
    Well, if you read their papers, where they point out Boston, that that’s what had happened in Boston in Massachusetts. They had simply out-bred the Protestants and they’re — they — in Boston in Massachusetts they have control.
    [...]
    James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. As a consequence, Boston stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/the-reality-of-red-subversion/#comment-1699584

    Let me emphasize here that the restrictionists of Congress do not claim that the "Nordic" race, or even the Anglo-Saxon race, is the best race in the world. Let us concede, in all fairness that the Czech is a more sturdy laborer … that the Jew is the best businessman in the world, and that the Italian has … a spiritual exaltation and an artistic creative sense which the Nordic rarely attains. Nordics need not be vain about their own qualifications. It well behooves them to be humble.

    What we do claim is that the northern European and particularly Anglo-Saxons made this country. Oh, yes; the others helped. But … [t]hey came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it, and they have not yet greatly changed it.

    We are determined that they shall not … It is a good country. It suits us. And what we assert is that we are not going to surrender it to somebody else or allow other people, no matter what their merits, to make it something different. If there is any changing to be done, we will do it ourselves."[5] -Cong. Rec., April 8, 1924, 5922
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_N._Vaile

    She’s not Catholic herself, but accepts a lot of their mores; she comes from a family of over ten children, and has been insisting that we have at least half of that, for example. Her ancestry is obviously Catholic: she’s descended largely – over 90% – from the original French settlement in Quebec with a slight admixture of Irish descent from one of the settlers that went to Canada instead of the US during the famine years.

    That said, I’ve never heard of her say anything negative about WASPs and she identifies her culture as basically American, with a lesser emphasis on French. And knowing several others, I’ll say that the culture of meritocracy is indeed the modern culture; the other assumption of a more clannish culture is always avoided since it ultimately runs up against the notion of the rule of law, and nepotism becomes even more common. It naturally lends after all, that if you favor your subgroup over other subgroups, that you’ll favor your family over other families, and so on.

    Most people would see that as corruption, and lead to enough inefficiencies that its not widely advocated. Frankly, its not far from the argument used by North Korea and we all now how successful that country is. You could easily argue that it doesn’t matter so as long as that is what you desire, and that’s perfectly fine.

    At any rate, you’ve repeated the nativist argument a few times. I understand it and I’ve answered it several times: that’s fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy. Finally, I’ve never been in support of unlimited immigration, and rate does matter.

    But you’re correct: I have a more Social Darwainian bent as does my wife. Social Darwainism, I should note, has Anglo origins as well e.g. Herbert Spencer. and as you noted, isn’t even that traditional to some aspects of Chinese culture. But that’s the way of modernity, so ultimately what you’re advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max

    But that’s the way of modernity, so ultimately what you’re advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.
     
    No. I am basically saying what commenter Autochthon said to you before:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rank[]ed all they want in Asia;
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810086

    that’s fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy.
     
    I understand your argument and frustration, but maybe instead of interpreting it as ``hypocrisy(/malice),'' try to understand it as something more akin to ``misguided/pathological'' politeness, another version/expression of political correctness. They don't want to offend, but are realizing, that something went terribly awry, but they are not quite sure yet how to remedy and handle the problem, especially without being labeled as ``racists,'' etc. by the usual suspects (SJWs, Tiger Daughters, etc.):

    Are Tiger Daughters Taking Over the SJW Racket?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/are-tiger-daughters-taking-over-the-sjw-racket/

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/


    One of my concerns over the last decade is that the high end testing systems in the U.S. are falling apart under the onslaught of millions of Tiger Mothers and their progeny.
     

    Seriously, if you can get your followers to score higher on the gatekeeper tests, they may become the ruling class of the future—a lesson that American conservatives might ponder. In general, American conservatives have felt that it wouldn’t be sporting for them to think in any organized fashioned about how to game tests such as the SAT. But the older civilizations have little patience for such boyish innocence.

    … typical, pathological WASP/Northern European altruism/idealism at its finest/worst.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/he-who-controls-test-prep-controls-the-future/#comment-1512545

    In the first hour, Kevin outlines his recent work, which explores theories of a genetic basis for altruism and the lack of ethnic awareness or kinship oriented nepotism. He explains recent scientific studies that are finding there is perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1771264

    We previously briefly discussed the connection between Northern European/Protestant peoples and innovativeness (and science in general) with each other, and this is basically what it all boils down to for me:


    The less Protestant/Northern European and more Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, etc. the U.S. becomes, the less industrious and rich it will be…
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1774065

    There’s something about those Nordic countries.
    [...]
    The following ranking of the Bloomberg Innovation Index is from 2015, and countries rise or fall within the ranking from year to year, but the dominance of the historically majority Protestant nations with Northern European-derived populations in the Top 20 is very consistent
    [...]
    So I think it’s safe to say that Protestantism is the dominant religious expression of the Anglo-Germanic peoples, and only the Anglo-Germanic peoples. And, getting back to the original northern rebellion against southern corruption, the Anglo-Germanic nations remain the gold standard in honesty and transparency.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1772339

    Merton thesis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merton_thesis

    Merton focuses on English Puritanism and German Pietism as being responsible for the development of the scientific revolution of the 17th and 18th centuries. He explains that the connection between religious affiliation and interest in science is a result of a significant synergy between the ascetic Protestant values and those of modern science.[5] Protestant values encouraged scientific research by allowing science to identify God's influence on the world and thus providing religious justification for scientific research.[1]
    [...]
    Instead, modern (white) Protestants and Jews had a high degree of "intellectual autonomy" that facilitated scientific and technical advance.[10] By contrast, Lenski pointed out, Catholics developed an intellectual orientation which valued "obedience" to the teachings of their church above intellectual autonomy, which made them less inclined to enter scientific careers. Catholic sociologists[11][12] had come to the same conclusions.[13]
    [...]
    Lenski traced these differences back to the Reformation and the Catholic church's reaction to it. In Lenski's view, the Reformation encouraged intellectual autonomy among Protestants, in particular the Anabaptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Presbyterians. In the Middle Ages, there had been tendencies toward intellectual autonomy, as exemplified in men like Erasmus. But after the Reformation, the Catholic leaders increasingly identified these tendencies with Protestantism and heresy and demanded that Catholics be obedient and faithful to ecclesiastical discipline.
     


    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458
  195. @Twinkie

    I think the gap between that athlete and me is much larger than the gap between him and a major leaguer.
     
    Oh, yes.

    In fact, at the highest level of just about any competitive athletics, the gap is so small that just a little bit of "relaxation" can take a champion from crushing dominance to a humiliating defeat. I see that in the fight game all the time. That's why it's hard to stay on top - because success, fame, and having money makes champions soft and make them easier targets for the up-and-comers (see Rocky III for a cinematic treatment of this phenomenon). It really takes a special athlete, with the accompanying, unique mentality, to "stay hungry" and be able to kill himself physicially and mentally every day to remain sharp and at the top of his game.

    It also helps to be born with an insane level of competitiveness. – the kind that makes you treat every game like it’s the Super Bowl, because you HATE HATE HATE to lose. See Brady, Tom, etc.

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  196. res says:
    @George
    don’t you think that the english part being “really easy”

    You talking to me? This is the Stuy High and others test page.
    http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/resources/testing/shsat.htm

    The English test is not easy, it is actually the math section that is too easy.

    When I was there in the 70s, for the most part, the Asians could speak English just fine. Maybe not brilliant, but fine.

    Thanks for the informative link. I did not see a quantification of English/math ease there. Here are some more links.

    Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_High_Schools_Admissions_Test
    I see that aligns with ER’s earlier comment. From wiki:

    A November 2005, a New York Times article found that students scoring in the 90th percentile on both sections would not gain admittance to their first choice schools; meanwhile those scoring in the 99th percentile on one section and the 50th percentile on the other, would.[14] This happens because the final grade and percentile represent the total score and the curve within sections.

    I think the example in the NYT article (reference 14) was even more stunning:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9500EEDD133EF931A25752C1A9639C8B63&legacy=true

    Last year, for instance, a student with a 99 percentile score in math and 49 percentile in verbal would have been admitted to Stuyvesant High School — the most coveted specialized school — but a student with a 97 in math and 92 in verbal would not.

    That certainly does seem unreasonable to me. But, I’m assuming there is not an issue with truncating the percentile and they really mean something like 99.99. And reading closer I see the scores were really 291, or 41 questions answered correctly vs. 369/50 so my assumption might be violated (that’s a 26% increase in score and 22% difference in raw score!).

    This link has some good information on SHSAT scoring details: http://testprepshsat.com/shsat-strategy/
    including 2006 verbal/math frequency distributions! Which are quite different from each other. The verbal test has a much fatter right tail.

    Looking at the math distribution it looks like a perfect score is better than 99.9%. I find it defensible to select for talent that uncommon and find the NYT characterization of that as 99% misleading. For perspective, per https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SATIQ.aspx the IQs matching those percentiles are 146 and 135 (about 0.75SD difference). 97% is 128 so the difference between 99.9% and 99% is actually larger in an ability sense than the difference between 99% and 97%.

    Note that the SHSAT is currently being redone so all of this information will be obsolete soon. I guess one of the ways we “close gaps” is to ensure frequent enough change that nobody can get a handle on what is going on and/or make comparisons across time (e.g. the SAT).

    Read More
    • Replies: @George
    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works. When I applied for HSs in the 70's, which was a long time agao during a financial crisis so Stuy High might be better now, Hunter was the most selective school, and in terms of an academic program the most innovative. Hunter was connected with CCNY a top tier university system so there was some quality control. Stuyvesant was run by and for the NYC board of education. As long as Stuy High was better than other regular High Schools, they accomplished their mission.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College_High_School
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School#Notable_alumni

    So this stuff about Stuyvesant being the most coveted blah blah blah, is mostly invented. I suspect they might like talking about Stuyvesant because the more fluid, Ivy league like, admissions standards at Hunter could be altered to be more 'affirmative' for minorities, and the educrats would hate that.

    If you look at the math part, Stuyvesant claims to be a math school, it is actually not very advanced. For example, you have to have fractions and decimals down pat including factions made up of fractions and decimals. So? Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.

    When I applied to High Schools I applied to Hunter, Murrow (local, about as good, alternative to Hunter), and Stuyvesant. I was accepted into only Stuyvesant along with a couple of other kids, none of whom were accepted at Hunter or Murrow. That is a hint about how the system works.
  197. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Nah, I'm going to right into an oven once they win and make greater discoveries about the melting point of subhuman flesh :D

    That’s funny Dan.

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  198. res says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard”

    This probably could explain the entire thread.

    Another variant is George Carlin’s “Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?”

    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgecarl391403.html

    Still another variant is that intelligence is key up until my IQ, but irrelevant beyond that (see IQ threshold theory ; ).

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  199. Damon Hewitt is arguing for more political power to raise the status of certain racial groups and lower the status for other racial groups. Specifically, he wants power to raise status of his own racial group and lower the status of rival groups. That is despicable.

    I have a related proposal that would actually benefit both underclass blacks and this crowd of outsider alt-right types: Embrace open non-selective admissions at all publicly funded institutions of higher education.

    I am referencing a model similar to what Coursera does: you have to register and create an account but there is no selective admissions process. Many classes would charge some reasonable fee to cover basic costs, but otherwise anyone who is interested in taking a class and competing for certification can do so, regardless of race or nationality or political affiliation.

    Credentialing and scoring is naturally selective. Anyone who buys/registers for a class is allowed to take the tests or submit assignments. But no one is entitled to the score that they want, which is how most current tests work.

    This crowd of fringe alt-right outsiders would love it: The tribal groups that run academia hate this crowd, exclude this crowd, and are quite comfortable with socially kicking down any members of this crowd and this crowd is quite bitter about it. Open admissions would strip that power and authority away from the groups that run academia.

    Underclass blacks would genuinely benefit: They already have less access to take classes at credentialed schools. This would give them and their racial group full access and make the credentialing system much more dynamic and flexible.

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  200. FKA Max says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    She's not Catholic herself, but accepts a lot of their mores; she comes from a family of over ten children, and has been insisting that we have at least half of that, for example. Her ancestry is obviously Catholic: she's descended largely - over 90% - from the original French settlement in Quebec with a slight admixture of Irish descent from one of the settlers that went to Canada instead of the US during the famine years.

    That said, I've never heard of her say anything negative about WASPs and she identifies her culture as basically American, with a lesser emphasis on French. And knowing several others, I'll say that the culture of meritocracy is indeed the modern culture; the other assumption of a more clannish culture is always avoided since it ultimately runs up against the notion of the rule of law, and nepotism becomes even more common. It naturally lends after all, that if you favor your subgroup over other subgroups, that you'll favor your family over other families, and so on.

    Most people would see that as corruption, and lead to enough inefficiencies that its not widely advocated. Frankly, its not far from the argument used by North Korea and we all now how successful that country is. You could easily argue that it doesn't matter so as long as that is what you desire, and that's perfectly fine.

    At any rate, you've repeated the nativist argument a few times. I understand it and I've answered it several times: that's fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy. Finally, I've never been in support of unlimited immigration, and rate does matter.

    But you're correct: I have a more Social Darwainian bent as does my wife. Social Darwainism, I should note, has Anglo origins as well e.g. Herbert Spencer. and as you noted, isn't even that traditional to some aspects of Chinese culture. But that's the way of modernity, so ultimately what you're advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.

    But that’s the way of modernity, so ultimately what you’re advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.

    No. I am basically saying what commenter Autochthon said to you before:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rank[]ed all they want in Asia;

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810086

    that’s fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy.

    I understand your argument and frustration, but maybe instead of interpreting it as “hypocrisy(/malice),” try to understand it as something more akin to “misguided/pathological” politeness, another version/expression of political correctness. They don’t want to offend, but are realizing, that something went terribly awry, but they are not quite sure yet how to remedy and handle the problem, especially without being labeled as “racists,” etc. by the usual suspects (SJWs, Tiger Daughters, etc.):

    Are Tiger Daughters Taking Over the SJW Racket?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/are-tiger-daughters-taking-over-the-sjw-racket/

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/

    One of my concerns over the last decade is that the high end testing systems in the U.S. are falling apart under the onslaught of millions of Tiger Mothers and their progeny.

    Seriously, if you can get your followers to score higher on the gatekeeper tests, they may become the ruling class of the future—a lesson that American conservatives might ponder. In general, American conservatives have felt that it wouldn’t be sporting for them to think in any organized fashioned about how to game tests such as the SAT. But the older civilizations have little patience for such boyish innocence.

    … typical, pathological WASP/Northern European altruism/idealism at its finest/worst.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/he-who-controls-test-prep-controls-the-future/#comment-1512545

    In the first hour, Kevin outlines his recent work, which explores theories of a genetic basis for altruism and the lack of ethnic awareness or kinship oriented nepotism. He explains recent scientific studies that are finding there is perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.

    http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1771264

    We previously briefly discussed the connection between Northern European/Protestant peoples and innovativeness (and science in general) with each other, and this is basically what it all boils down to for me:

    The less Protestant/Northern European and more Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, etc. the U.S. becomes, the less industrious and rich it will be…

    http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1774065

    There’s something about those Nordic countries.
    [...]
    The following ranking of the Bloomberg Innovation Index is from 2015, and countries rise or fall within the ranking from year to year, but the dominance of the historically majority Protestant nations with Northern European-derived populations in the Top 20 is very consistent
    [...]
    So I think it’s safe to say that Protestantism is the dominant religious expression of the Anglo-Germanic peoples, and only the Anglo-Germanic peoples. And, getting back to the original northern rebellion against southern corruption, the Anglo-Germanic nations remain the gold standard in honesty and transparency.

    http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1772339

    Merton thesis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merton_thesis

    Merton focuses on English Puritanism and German Pietism as being responsible for the development of the scientific revolution of the 17th and 18th centuries. He explains that the connection between religious affiliation and interest in science is a result of a significant synergy between the ascetic Protestant values and those of modern science.[5] Protestant values encouraged scientific research by allowing science to identify God’s influence on the world and thus providing religious justification for scientific research.[1]
    [...]
    Instead, modern (white) Protestants and Jews had a high degree of “intellectual autonomy” that facilitated scientific and technical advance.[10] By contrast, Lenski pointed out, Catholics developed an intellectual orientation which valued “obedience” to the teachings of their church above intellectual autonomy, which made them less inclined to enter scientific careers. Catholic sociologists[11][12] had come to the same conclusions.[13]
    [...]
    Lenski traced these differences back to the Reformation and the Catholic church’s reaction to it. In Lenski’s view, the Reformation encouraged intellectual autonomy among Protestants, in particular the Anabaptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Presbyterians. In the Middle Ages, there had been tendencies toward intellectual autonomy, as exemplified in men like Erasmus. But after the Reformation, the Catholic leaders increasingly identified these tendencies with Protestantism and heresy and demanded that Catholics be obedient and faithful to ecclesiastical discipline.

    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.

    http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.
     
    This doesn't change that without objective standards, the other solution is - and we did see - is basically a form of clannish nepotism. And that results more or less in corruption, taken to its natural extremes. Quoting others endlessly doesn't change that; most of the more clannish societies do indeed show higher levels of corruption and this was even true of the more clannish sections of America.

    Jack D has noted that objective standards were indeed used elsewhere with no great loss; perhaps one of the oddities of your argument is that you are promoting both essentially clannish behavior with nativist arguments and yet also promote that "perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe."

    You can't ultimately have both. You either have "pathological altruism" which results in rule by law and objective standards, which by definition can be "gamed." Or you have much more kinship based altruism and restrictions, which means that eventually greater or lesser form of nepotism will be accepted - becaused kinship based systems are by definition, some form of nepotism.

    Are you trying to say that a society will become more competitive, by adhering to standards which are by definition, less competitive?

    The North Korea argument is relevant. You can certainly have your country in any way you want, because you want a certain culture. But to also argue that's going to be overall competitive from a merit standpoint does not logically follow, at all - you can reject meritocracy, but it won't result in greater merit. You can reject reality, but you can't reject the consequences of rejecting reality.

    Honestly, I would say it largely is captured by Stationary Feast's quote of gamer parlance again:

    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard.”

  201. @Thomas
    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another "white bread" food).

    "Jordan Peele explains 'Get Out's' creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate," http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.
    ...
    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.
     
    I've been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as "the original white privilege" with this meme kicking around.

    The US in general is so race obsessed that you cannot get out of it for nothing. All is race based, and it is a drag to everyone. Before the 1970s, Mexicans were counted as ‘white’, or as I once heard, ‘dark white’. After those years, you are labeled with so much, Latino, Latinex, Asian, African American, Euro American, (better known as whites), etc. Not longer are you German American, French American, Russian American, etc. So the real Americans please raise your hand! I wish I was just a normal day to day American, without the hyphenated extra.

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  202. The issue is that some so called minorities do not consider their children’s education seriously. Who cares if they do their studies, and homework, and extra curriculum to advance. When I was in high school, I was in competence with an Asian kid, from Malaysia and we spent up to three hours studying in the library after school hrs. We both graduated, but a female from Colorado beat our rears and I was second after her. The Indonesian kid, I think he was 12th, in the graduating class. So yes, the wish to succeed and the personal effort area key components of reaching and getting where you want to be in life.

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