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A friend asks:

1) Are there any twins separated at birth studies on gayness? There seem to be twins separated at birth studies for everything else.

I’m guessing that sample sizes would be pretty small. How many identical twins-separated-at-an-early-age examples are there in the scientific literature? Have they been increasing in number in this century?

2) When was the SAT first gender- or race-normed? I think they did it first for girls who could never get double-800s because of the math section, but I don’t know what year. I want to know the cut-off point for when I can trust someone’s SATs.

The big change that added about 80 points to Verbal SAT scores but only 10 points to Math SAT scores was in mid-1995. Before then, it was close to impossible to score 1600 on just one exam. Here’s a People Magazine profile of five of the nine guys who scored 1600 in 1985.

So before 1995 it was very very hard to get a 1600 because it was very hard to get an 800 on the Verbal. Did raising Verbal scores by fiat help girls or boys more?

Is there any study summarizing Score Inflation over the years on the SAT and ACT? It seems like tweaking to drive up scores is increasing in frequency, but it’s hard to get a straight story.

On the other hand, it doesn’t seem like the testing agencies have been able to do much to erase The Gaps, at least not without wrecking the predictive validities of their tests. So they seem to be trying to inflate everybody’s scores in the hope that that will keep the Warriors of Wokeness away.

3) I’d also like to know how many people in the country got a perfect 1600, broken down by gender, from 1970 to the present.

 
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  1. For question 3.

    https://www2.ed.gov/programs/psp/index.html

    They have lists for each year. If you get a perfect score, the government sends you a letter. You could probably do a gender breakdown, but before the big renorming it’s just the highest scores in the country and not exclusively perfect scores.

    I was pretty proud to get my letter. It’s about .1% of students, so… +3SD.

  2. Whatever happens, white boys will somehow do too well.

    • Agree: Liza
  3. Anonymous[281] • Disclaimer says:

    I’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score. Or perhaps that she scored very high (maybe perfect) on the math SAT when she was 7th-8th grader (SMPY study at JHU). I forget the story. Something like that.

    I did not get a perfect score. Missed one question on verbal exam. Rading comprehension…titling a piece., When I saw the score sheet, knew how I had got it wrong and what right answer was. You sort of have to train yourself to peak the “stereotypical answer”. Best right answer, the one a test writer would think of, sort of put yourself in their brain. I had let my mind drift and put down the next best answer…and a title for a piece is somewhat qualitative.

    I’m also far from the brains of a Lisa Randall or any kind of Bessel-function whomping on the head physics rock star.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    You sort of have to train yourself to peak the “stereotypical answer”.
     
    This. Which I was too bull-headed to do. Well, am. Also guessed wrong on "meretricious," which makes a nice trick question. The stars really had to align, even for the best of the best. Was proud of my perfect ACT as that was content-based, which I valued more highly. Of course with content you use it or lose it, but you get to keep the nice luggage it came in.
    , @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    , @Chris Renner
    Your SMPY reference reminded me of something I've wondered for a bit: how many iSteve readers are alumni / former study subjects of Julian Stanley's programs at Hopkins? I doubt I'm the only one...
  4. Judith Resnik, Jewish astronaut who died in space shuttle challenger, was one of the only 5 people with a perfect 1600 SAT . She was the 16th women to get a perfect score (says wiki, but the perfect score I know from a nasa source). I would guesstimate that since 1926 there must have been around 150/200 perfect scores (women would around 8-10% then).

    There were 900k candidates so that’s 1 in 180k. Now it’s more 1 in 1,5 to 3k. 100 times l’Est sélective. In several occasions there were no one at 1590. It’s still the case that there are more people in the ceiling score. The same happen with math Olympiad were there are generally 2 or 3 42/42 and often nobody in the 38-41 level and very few at 34-37, most 50 gold medalist are in the 24-30 level.

    If women are around 2% of Nobel prize in physics or Medal Fields, if those people IQ is around 1 in 1000, it would be at most half about IQ (5 times less women) and at least the rest : wanting to build a family first and foremost. Both are probably in the genes ….

  5. @Anonymous
    I've heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score. Or perhaps that she scored very high (maybe perfect) on the math SAT when she was 7th-8th grader (SMPY study at JHU). I forget the story. Something like that.

    I did not get a perfect score. Missed one question on verbal exam. Rading comprehension...titling a piece., When I saw the score sheet, knew how I had got it wrong and what right answer was. You sort of have to train yourself to peak the "stereotypical answer". Best right answer, the one a test writer would think of, sort of put yourself in their brain. I had let my mind drift and put down the next best answer...and a title for a piece is somewhat qualitative.

    I'm also far from the brains of a Lisa Randall or any kind of Bessel-function whomping on the head physics rock star.

    You sort of have to train yourself to peak the “stereotypical answer”.

    This. Which I was too bull-headed to do. Well, am. Also guessed wrong on “meretricious,” which makes a nice trick question. The stars really had to align, even for the best of the best. Was proud of my perfect ACT as that was content-based, which I valued more highly. Of course with content you use it or lose it, but you get to keep the nice luggage it came in.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    I was a 1560 here. 800 verbal, 760 math.

    The thing is, I achieved that under the worst possible conditions. I was not even in an academic setting at the time. I had dropped out of school, I was just getting out of the drug scene, my drunken parents were in the middle of their extremely messy, violent, adultery-ridden and suicide-attempting divorce, and I was basically homeless (and, as you might imagine, pretty stressed out). I took the test with no preparation or encouragement.

    Yes, I was pissed off that I didn't get a perfect, but given the circumstance I'd say that was some real Good Will Hunting shit right there. It's still equivalent to a Stanford-Binet IQ of 152, and I should probably feel comfortable attributing my slight imperfection to "the influence of the environment"
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    guessed wrong on “meretricious,”

     

    Was that question added to be less culturally biased against Blacks to compensate for them not knowing what a yacht is?
  6. The difficulty of the SAT has changed a lot several times. In the mid eighties, it was the most difficult with 1 in 200k getting a perfect score.

    But in the mid seventies, the ceiling was much lower like today. It’s almost imposible to know the percentile of a given score if’you don’t have the ETS tables for each year. And then there are several recentering. Not only 1995.

  7. @Anonymous
    I've heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score. Or perhaps that she scored very high (maybe perfect) on the math SAT when she was 7th-8th grader (SMPY study at JHU). I forget the story. Something like that.

    I did not get a perfect score. Missed one question on verbal exam. Rading comprehension...titling a piece., When I saw the score sheet, knew how I had got it wrong and what right answer was. You sort of have to train yourself to peak the "stereotypical answer". Best right answer, the one a test writer would think of, sort of put yourself in their brain. I had let my mind drift and put down the next best answer...and a title for a piece is somewhat qualitative.

    I'm also far from the brains of a Lisa Randall or any kind of Bessel-function whomping on the head physics rock star.

    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University … Randall, who isn’t married and doesn’t have children, spends the bulk of her time …

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister – Dana Randall – who also doesn’t appear to be married. What a waste.

    • Agree: Colin Wright, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister – Dana Randall – who also doesn’t appear to be married. What a waste.
     
    The 1970's called, and they want that way of thinking back ;)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkK2j8wsBL8
    , @anon
    They could at least sell some eggs!

    Bill in Glendale
    , @Alice
    If you met them in person, you might change your mind. Not everyone is pleasant, even if attractive when young. But neither of them has been young in 20 years.
    , @J.Ross
    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia, but admit them and pay full ride to all levels if they have kids in a marriage. So after you have two kids and get them to be preteens you can become a medical doctor (pending test scores) without paying for a single lab coat. That, plus ending no-fault divorce, plus reforming the education system and its funding, would be big but by no means impossible, it wouldn't be in the same ballpark as the space program, and it would right our population woes in a generation.
    , @George
    Stuyvesant hs grads.
    , @SFG
    There was an old superstition that educating a woman would make her ovaries dry up.

    While the mechanism is obviously hogwash, it does seem to be true that educating women makes them have fewer kids.

    , @Anonymous
    I dated Dana, back in the day. She was very sexual attractive in a turned on sort of way. I usually just date waitresses and nurses, so n0t used to a smart girl. (It's not that I fear a smart girl...but that life is hard enough and I want sympathy and heart from the female.) But she was cool. And I could hang. Wasn't intellectually overbearing, although, sure, smart.

    I had never heard of Lisa...but she is supposedly some big deal...and her sister knew that (believe me)..strange to be a Harvard grad and tenured GA Tech professor and still have someone a notch above you. But she was just off in the distance. Never met her or even knew her repute until picking up Dana. Of course isn't that how it usually is with older siblings?

    Maybe we missed our chance to make little 150 IQ babies? Not her fault really, mine. Honestly, Dana was cool. Juggler.
  8. anon[338] • Disclaimer says:

    My son took home a 1600 in 2002 (first time, no test prep classes). My scores circa 1965 were 745/697 and 761/649. Certainly a vast difference in the demographics! He would have gotten into Caltech if he’d been a girl or the right minority, but of course he was wait-listed–and probably that was a good thing.

    Bill in Glendale

    • Replies: @Anon

    He would have gotten into Caltech if he’d been a girl.
     
    Why wasn't he a girl? But yeah, I guess that was a little early. Today I would definitely tell my son to become a girl at least for applications season.

    If I were a college admissions consultant, I would be advising my clients who had smart sons to have them put up some trans-related videos on YouTube, starting from a couple of years before college application season. The kid could wear a mask or something. The key is to get some trans-related content up, datestamped, on YouTube, and then during application season throw up some videos exposing his face. The script can be copied from any of the millions of teen trans channels. After acceptance, delete the channel. Have him wear slightly unisex clothing for the orientation and maybe for half a semester, then he can turn back into a boy. If anyone asks any questions, he can demur, saying it's private, and then call the family attorney.
    , @Anonymous
    Caltech is one of the few elite schools that DOESN'T use affirmative action or legacy admissions.

    Stop assuming that every school uses unfair admissions criteria.
  9. @Desiderius

    You sort of have to train yourself to peak the “stereotypical answer”.
     
    This. Which I was too bull-headed to do. Well, am. Also guessed wrong on "meretricious," which makes a nice trick question. The stars really had to align, even for the best of the best. Was proud of my perfect ACT as that was content-based, which I valued more highly. Of course with content you use it or lose it, but you get to keep the nice luggage it came in.

    I was a 1560 here. 800 verbal, 760 math.

    The thing is, I achieved that under the worst possible conditions. I was not even in an academic setting at the time. I had dropped out of school, I was just getting out of the drug scene, my drunken parents were in the middle of their extremely messy, violent, adultery-ridden and suicide-attempting divorce, and I was basically homeless (and, as you might imagine, pretty stressed out). I took the test with no preparation or encouragement.

    Yes, I was pissed off that I didn’t get a perfect, but given the circumstance I’d say that was some real Good Will Hunting shit right there. It’s still equivalent to a Stanford-Binet IQ of 152, and I should probably feel comfortable attributing my slight imperfection to “the influence of the environment”

  10. @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister – Dana Randall – who also doesn’t appear to be married. What a waste.

    The 1970’s called, and they want that way of thinking back 😉

  11. @Desiderius

    You sort of have to train yourself to peak the “stereotypical answer”.
     
    This. Which I was too bull-headed to do. Well, am. Also guessed wrong on "meretricious," which makes a nice trick question. The stars really had to align, even for the best of the best. Was proud of my perfect ACT as that was content-based, which I valued more highly. Of course with content you use it or lose it, but you get to keep the nice luggage it came in.

    guessed wrong on “meretricious,”

    Was that question added to be less culturally biased against Blacks to compensate for them not knowing what a yacht is?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    No, regatta was on either my SAT or PSAT. Of course regattas used to be a big enough game that they were as widely followed (on both sides of the pond) as boxing or horse-racing.

    As usual the test-writing class cloaks their temporal chauvinism in a putative concern for equity, meanwhile wrenching our shared heritage and history out of all recognition.
  12. @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    They could at least sell some eggs!

    Bill in Glendale

  13. @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    If you met them in person, you might change your mind. Not everyone is pleasant, even if attractive when young. But neither of them has been young in 20 years.

  14. This is just a data point for an argument which, though correct, has long since been steam-rollered by Various Implacable Forces, and so is merely offered in a “the dog barks and the caravan moves on” sorta way. So it kind of no longer matters, except to people who care about reality.

    White-ethnic gentile working class urban kid, circa 1980. No test-prep at all, except for taking a practice exam once in order to be familiar with the format. No particular “privileges” to speak of, except a stable healthy two-parent family, decent teachers, a good local library, and some reliable friends. Flippant boy scout, street roller-hockey player. (So: nerd, but not THAT nerd.)

    Near-perfect scores (off by only one each, on Math and Verbal.)

    As to Math: didn’t care, never really liked Math, but did all the homework anyway because you were supposed to.

    Verbal is more peculiar: taking the test was like doing the Junior Jumble on the funny pages, it literally took me as long to take the test as it did to read it. It was like reading a page of “Blondie” comics.

    Reason? I didn’t study for the bloody thing, I simply spent a lot of time as a kid reading Coleridge, Conrad, Shaw, and Oscar Wilde.

    Moral of the story: for Math, do your damn homework. For Verbal: kid, if you don’t actually LIKE reading “Gawain and the Green Knight” and “How He Lied To Her Husband,” then why do you even /want/ to go to college?

    • Agree: Peter Akuleyev
    • Replies: @Anonymouse
    Very pleasant, reassuring to read this thread, getting a sense of the best of iSteve followers.

    I never took the SAT but sat for the GRE exam to apply to graduate schools. I got a perfect score in the verbal part and it got me accepted into Harvard. Granted that I learned nothing much there, I treasure the memory of my 4 years in that bubble. My friend Donald Lyons well likened it to the Love Tunnel ride in Coney Island: you get on and go around in the boat and come around to where you got on and then you have to get off.
  15. @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia, but admit them and pay full ride to all levels if they have kids in a marriage. So after you have two kids and get them to be preteens you can become a medical doctor (pending test scores) without paying for a single lab coat. That, plus ending no-fault divorce, plus reforming the education system and its funding, would be big but by no means impossible, it wouldn’t be in the same ballpark as the space program, and it would right our population woes in a generation.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Weird example, but that was actually in the Gor books. Women could join the physicians caste if they bred first. (Assuming they didn't get captured by the protagonist, of course.)
    , @SFG
    Not gonna happen on this side of the Urals, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese figure something like this out at some point. They have no hangups about eugenics.
    , @Counterinsurgency

    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia
     
    From what I understand, something like this happens after general societal failure, and it happens because the surviving women demand it. Reflex: when things get difficult, find a man and hold on to him. Also, don't let other women threaten his position. Also, have children and form alliances with relatives. Put them all together, scale up to the whole society, and they make feudalism, a sort of semi-civilized tribal society. Driven by protecting women and women's demands to be protected at each stage.

    History is a bit strange. Once women can marry the government, everything changes.

    Counterinsurgency
  16. Anon[289] • Disclaimer says:

    Where is the Edward Snowden of the college admissions testing world?

    In a rational world tracking this sort of information and trends related to it would be as important as having a periodic census, and the government would be interesteed in seeing to it that, whether tests are done by the government or by the private sector, they are well constructed and the data is accurate and available to researchers.

    A first step might be for someone, perhaps independent researchers, to establish a set of standards for cognitive and content testing and a rating scale with a memorable name, like the Bortle Scale for nighttime darkness.

    Standards could include the degree to which test results fall in a normal distribution/bell curve (mean equals median), versus whether there is a negative skew (a hump to the right). This is measured with Pearson’s moment coefficient of skewness, but the standards could map this result to a 1-to-10 or A-to-F scale.

    Other factors could include granularity of results, smoothness of results (questions whose difficulty varies in an even gradient).

    Also, you might want to factor in public disclosure, availability of anonymized data to researchers (e.g., the Census Bureau lets researchers use data, and they have elaborate ways to keep it private, publishing various papers on this written by mathematicians), and norming information (to what extent they had to pretzel the test to get female results the same as male).

    The end result would be to evaluate all the tests on the market and give them a sort of Nutrition Facts rating or labeling. At that point the test makers could ignore the rating or respond. Other researchers could criticize the methodology of the rating and offer their own. But the point is that this stuff would be talked about and the relevant issues would be surfaced.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right, there's a big danger that the two college testing organizations will get increasingly worse under the pressure of politics and money.

    ETS was formed under the guidance of Harvard president James B. Conant, who was the ultimate insider. He was a big poobah on formulating atom bomb strategy in 1945 and was later the US ambassador to West Germany.

    But you can't rely on elites' patriotism for very long.

  17. @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    Stuyvesant hs grads.

  18. @Anon
    Where is the Edward Snowden of the college admissions testing world?

    In a rational world tracking this sort of information and trends related to it would be as important as having a periodic census, and the government would be interesteed in seeing to it that, whether tests are done by the government or by the private sector, they are well constructed and the data is accurate and available to researchers.

    A first step might be for someone, perhaps independent researchers, to establish a set of standards for cognitive and content testing and a rating scale with a memorable name, like the Bortle Scale for nighttime darkness.

    Standards could include the degree to which test results fall in a normal distribution/bell curve (mean equals median), versus whether there is a negative skew (a hump to the right). This is measured with Pearson's moment coefficient of skewness, but the standards could map this result to a 1-to-10 or A-to-F scale.

    Other factors could include granularity of results, smoothness of results (questions whose difficulty varies in an even gradient).

    Also, you might want to factor in public disclosure, availability of anonymized data to researchers (e.g., the Census Bureau lets researchers use data, and they have elaborate ways to keep it private, publishing various papers on this written by mathematicians), and norming information (to what extent they had to pretzel the test to get female results the same as male).

    The end result would be to evaluate all the tests on the market and give them a sort of Nutrition Facts rating or labeling. At that point the test makers could ignore the rating or respond. Other researchers could criticize the methodology of the rating and offer their own. But the point is that this stuff would be talked about and the relevant issues would be surfaced.

    Right, there’s a big danger that the two college testing organizations will get increasingly worse under the pressure of politics and money.

    ETS was formed under the guidance of Harvard president James B. Conant, who was the ultimate insider. He was a big poobah on formulating atom bomb strategy in 1945 and was later the US ambassador to West Germany.

    But you can’t rely on elites’ patriotism for very long.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Not when they’ve got that kind of power you can’t.
  19. @Hippopotamusdrome


    guessed wrong on “meretricious,”

     

    Was that question added to be less culturally biased against Blacks to compensate for them not knowing what a yacht is?

    No, regatta was on either my SAT or PSAT. Of course regattas used to be a big enough game that they were as widely followed (on both sides of the pond) as boxing or horse-racing.

    As usual the test-writing class cloaks their temporal chauvinism in a putative concern for equity, meanwhile wrenching our shared heritage and history out of all recognition.

  20. @Steve Sailer
    Right, there's a big danger that the two college testing organizations will get increasingly worse under the pressure of politics and money.

    ETS was formed under the guidance of Harvard president James B. Conant, who was the ultimate insider. He was a big poobah on formulating atom bomb strategy in 1945 and was later the US ambassador to West Germany.

    But you can't rely on elites' patriotism for very long.

    Not when they’ve got that kind of power you can’t.

  21. SAT deliberately gender normed as some sort of political policy? never, i don’t think. this isn’t the same as lowering the ceiling of the test though, which has a similar, but not exactly the same effect, mainly on SAT math.

    it’s possible the original SAT, being based on the alpha test and princeton admission test, were somewhat gender normed in the sense that the existing stanford-binet and later wechsler were somewhat gender NERFED on purpose, that is, questions where women did a lot worse, were just thrown out of the test after a decade or two of testing, so those types of questions may have never been in SAT, which was developed out of those prior existing tests.

    so even today, wechsler, SAT, ravens, are all nerfed for women, and the results of paper and pencil intelligence tests are already skewed – women appear to perform about the same as men on average on paper tests, then go out and perform worse in the real world, leading to shrieking – but in reality the tests were nerfed on purpose to artificially make women look like they are about equally capable, whereas the real world is not nerfed for their benefit.

    SAT is also deliberately not a test of mechanical aptitude, where women would be way behind men and there’d be no good way to nerf the test enough to produce similar results for women and men. SAT is also not a test of something like hand-eye coordination.

    so adding up all those things. sometimes you get this internet discussion about intelligence tests where people ask, if men’s brains are bigger, and women do just about as well on intelligence tests, then men must be getting almost nothing out of their bigger brains.

    this is a misreading of the situation. men are getting more out of their bigger brains. their actual performance on intelligence tests is higher, such that the tests have to be nerfed for women, and even then, men do about 3 to 4 points better. men also have higher mechanical aptitude, and much better hand-eye coordination. just like a computer with an added graphics card, the mostly electrical brain requires more neurons to do those calculations, so men have bigger brains to do them really fast and accurately, women mostly don’t.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    the real world is not nerfed for their benefit.
     
    Citation needed.
  22. @J.Ross
    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia, but admit them and pay full ride to all levels if they have kids in a marriage. So after you have two kids and get them to be preteens you can become a medical doctor (pending test scores) without paying for a single lab coat. That, plus ending no-fault divorce, plus reforming the education system and its funding, would be big but by no means impossible, it wouldn't be in the same ballpark as the space program, and it would right our population woes in a generation.

    Weird example, but that was actually in the Gor books. Women could join the physicians caste if they bred first. (Assuming they didn’t get captured by the protagonist, of course.)

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Can we please not bring up John Norman while talking about what should be done with women?
  23. @J.Ross
    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia, but admit them and pay full ride to all levels if they have kids in a marriage. So after you have two kids and get them to be preteens you can become a medical doctor (pending test scores) without paying for a single lab coat. That, plus ending no-fault divorce, plus reforming the education system and its funding, would be big but by no means impossible, it wouldn't be in the same ballpark as the space program, and it would right our population woes in a generation.

    Not gonna happen on this side of the Urals, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chinese figure something like this out at some point. They have no hangups about eugenics.

  24. @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    There was an old superstition that educating a woman would make her ovaries dry up.

    While the mechanism is obviously hogwash, it does seem to be true that educating women makes them have fewer kids.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    While the mechanism is obviously hogwash, it does seem to be true that educating women makes them have fewer kids.
     
    Let us agree to raise taxes to finance do-gooders to go to the 3rd world and educate the women there.
  25. SAT deliberately race normed? well, that’s currently happening, thanks to David Coleman. but not in a technical way. in an artificial way.

    a few months ago when this policy was announced, i made a big post, going back and examining the history of the College Board, and discussing the previous 5 presidents. i didn’t feel like going back further than that, since College Board made it hard to find this information, and i’m not getting paid. but 5 presidents was far enough.

    David Coleman 2012-today
    Gaston Caperton 1999-2012
    Donald Stewart 1986-1999
    George Hanford 1979-1986
    Sidney Marland 1972-1979

    see that guy Donald Stewart? that’s where SAT began the process of “race norming” in earnest. in spirit, if not yet in practice.

    the guy before him, George Hanford, took seriously criticism of SAT being unfair to various groups, did genuine academic studies on it, and concluded that no, it was about as fair as possible. this started in 1980, and was probably, technically, were the value of the test began to be eroded, bureaucratically. in this time period it became acceptable to mount serious attacks on the validity of SAT. before that, in the 70s and earlier, during the real United States, and strong WASP control, the occasionally spurious attack of that nature was correctly just ignored. but after that point, Hanford taking the attacks seriously, it was all downhill. each president after that viewed the test with increasing suspicion about group differences and fairness.

    the guy before him, Sidney Marland, was a died in the wool academic leftist, who lead an academic attack on the entire concept of intelligence. in 1972 he published something called The Marland Report, which was strictly ivory tower flim flammery designed to discredit everything we knew about how brainpower worked.

    prior to any of that, about the only changes that i think happened were some minor changes to the vocabulary on SAT verbal, to make it less provincial.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    the guy before him, Sidney Marland, was a died in the wool academic leftist
     
    I think it is "dyed in the wool" but other than that, a good comment.

    Gaston Caperton was a doofus governor of West Virginia and I was surprised that he failed that far upwards.
  26. Is there anyplace where you can find for a given year how many people took the exam, and then a breakdown of how many got perfect scores, how many got 1590, 1580, 1570, etc., all the way down to 800?

  27. Anon[289] • Disclaimer says:

    How many identical twins-separated-at-an-early-age examples are there in the scientific literature?

    Here’s a recent meta analysis that looked at 18,000 complex traits in 2,700 papers covering 15 million twin pairs (virtually all twin studies, since 1950, they claim):

    Tinca Polderman et al., ‘Meta-analysis of the Heritability of Human Traits Based on Fifty Years of Twin Studies’, Nature Genetics, 47 (2015): 702–9.

    This was cited by Robert Plomin in his book from last year. Plomin is mainly operating in the genetics field now, but he previously set up several twin studies, in Colorado, the U.K., and Sweden.

    Here’s a PDF of some of the study:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa70/4d096d7aff1cbf99c91764cc2c6ab0e5e4c2.pdf

    The traits are grouped by category, so you cannot search specifically for “sexual orieintation” in this PDF.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?

  28. @Anon

    How many identical twins-separated-at-an-early-age examples are there in the scientific literature?
     
    Here's a recent meta analysis that looked at 18,000 complex traits in 2,700 papers covering 15 million twin pairs (virtually all twin studies, since 1950, they claim):

    Tinca Polderman et al., ‘Meta-analysis of the Heritability of Human Traits Based on Fifty Years of Twin Studies’, Nature Genetics, 47 (2015): 702–9.

    This was cited by Robert Plomin in his book from last year. Plomin is mainly operating in the genetics field now, but he previously set up several twin studies, in Colorado, the U.K., and Sweden.

    Here's a PDF of some of the study:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa70/4d096d7aff1cbf99c91764cc2c6ab0e5e4c2.pdf

    The traits are grouped by category, so you cannot search specifically for "sexual orieintation" in this PDF.

    Thanks.

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?

    • Replies: @Anon

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?
     
    The term Plomin uses for this is "MZ twins reared apart," if you want to do some Googling. In his book he says:


    The most dramatic test of genetic influence is to study MZ twins separated by adoption early in life. They share nature completely but do not share nurture at all, so their similarity is a direct test of genetic influence. MZ twins reared apart are of course extremely rare. Only a few hundred pairs have been studied worldwide. These cases have produced some amazing examples of similarity.
     
    Some interesting stories. Then ...

    But these are anecdotes, and the plural of anecdote is not data. Even though there are not many pairs of MZ twins reared apart, their results support other genetic research in pointing to substantial genetic influence. In general, MZ twins reared apart are almost as similar as MZ twins reared together, indicating that what makes them so similar is nature, not nurture.
     

    As described earlier, the most straightforward estimate of heritability comes from the correlation for MZ twins reared apart. Their correlation directly estimates heritability. If the correlation for MZ twins reared apart is 0, heritability is 0, whereas a correlation of 1.0 indicates heritability of 100 per cent. Although MZ twins reared apart are extremely rare, results for several hundred such pairs have been reported. A well-known study in the US is the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart, which comprised fifty-six pairs of MZ twins reared apart
     

    I was involved in a study in Sweden that systematically identified twins from birth records and found more than a hundred pairs of MZ twins reared apart. Most of these twins were elderly, born in the early twentieth century. The reason for their separation was an economic depression in Swedish agrarian society at the time, coupled with a high risk of maternal death during twin birth. This resulted in many twins being put up for adoption and adopted separately early in life. These reared-apart twins became participants in our Swedish Adoption/Twin Study of Aging. Their correlation for weight was also 0.73.

    Across all studies of MZ twins reared apart, the twin correlation for weight is 0.75. This indicates that 75 per cent of the differences between people in weight (variance) is shared (covariance) by these pairs of genetically identical individuals who did not grow up in the same family environment. For this reason, the correlation between identical twins reared apart is a simple, direct estimate of heritability: the extent to which differences in weight between individuals can be accounted for by inherited DNA differences.
     
    Plomin, Robert. Blueprint (The MIT Press). The MIT Press. Kindle Edition.
    , @Anon
    I suspect they must be more numerous, but poorly indexed. They are hard to perform, but they were one of the few things one could do before DNA sequencing. That is, possibly, a century of genetics, or more than two thirds of genetics history.

    Also, DNA matching (more accurately, similarity) in modern genetics is a poor equivalent to the real matching seen in monozygous twins. The lazy modern approach makes think of "Jewish genetics".
    , @Bruno
    In the book of Robert Plomin about this subject, Blueprint, the « new » twin studies are TEDS (twins early development study in the Uk). They assessed 2000 twins pair. MZ twins are one third of those, meaning 600 pair. But they are not reared apart.

    The only MZ reared aparts cited by Plomin who is the expert on this are (1) MISTRA, Minnesota; it was 56 pairs and the Swedish adoption twin study who identified all twins in Sweden. MZ given to adoption and reared apart was 100.

    Given how rare it is to give white kids to adoption and how immoral separating twins is believed to be, we can guess - mutatis mutandis - there will be no more cases in the future that those 156 pairs.

    Inhis index, there is no reference to sexual orientation but Plomin avoided touchy subjects. There is no reference to race either. Only the word racism gets a mention p53.

    So it’s perfectly probable that the sexual orientation was recorded. Or at least an old bachelor situation should have been recorded and in the case the subject were living openly in a gay couple, it’s obvious the Psy would have recorded it too.

    So I guess the data is there - only two studies - unexploited. But it is not very powerful because less 3% of people identified as gay in those generations. You would have need at least 300 pairs to get a not random direct approximation of heredity.

    Maybe in China or India they’ll do it ...
  29. i’m not sure the 1995 SAT re-center was that lopsided. i think steve is mistaken here, or made a typo. it seemed like combined scores went up almost 100, but about equally divided between math and verbal. way more test takers were scoring 800 on SAT math after the re-center.

    before the re-center, about 700 teenagers scored 800 on the math every year. this doesn’t necessarily mean they answered every math question correctly. it seemed like you could miss 1 or 2 questions on SAT math and still score 800. on the verbal test it was an order of magnitude less common to score 800, and there, it felt like you DID have to answer every question correctly. one wrong answer on SAT verbal and your score went below 800.

    i remember reading in the 1980s that about 15 people were able to score 1600 in a single test on SAT every year. this wasn’t a combined score from separate tests, but guys going in there in one shot and scoring 1600. this doesn’t mean they answered every question correctly though, so there’s still an upper echelon of a few guys who did get every question correct, but their score of 1600 is the same as other people who missed 1 or 2 and still scored 1600.

    one of the astronauts killed on the 1986 Challenger explosion, Judith Resnik, was the only girl to score 1600 on SAT in 1966, or i assume the year was 1966.

    wikipedia says that at the time, 1966, Resnik was one of only 16 girls to ever score 1600. so probably 1 or 2 girls at most from then on, every year, until the 1995 re-center, would be a good estimate. maybe 40 girls total? out of 15 million girl test takers? hard to estimate how many people were taking SAT back in the day, since that was before everybody “had” to go college. but that’s a good rough estimate. about 1 in 500,000 girls who took the old SAT.

    • Replies: @res

    i’m not sure the 1995 SAT re-center was that lopsided. i think steve is mistaken here, or made a typo. it seemed like combined scores went up almost 100, but about equally divided between math and verbal. way more test takers were scoring 800 on SAT math after the re-center.
     
    Steve overstated the difference a bit, but the real numbers are closer to what he said than 50/50.

    Dorans 2004 is pretty much the definitive reference for the 1995 recentering.
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf

    Table 1 indicates that for their 1990 reference group the verbal mean increased from 422 to 500 and the math mean increased from 475 to 500. So 78 and 25 points respectively.

    One issue is that the conversion is not linear (Dorans 2004 discusses this). Here is an equivalency table:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20120901161419/https://research.collegeboard.org/programs/sat/data/equivalence/sat-individual
    (some examples, 600 to 650 math scores are unchanged by conversion, and 660 to 710 math scores actually convert to 10 points lower)

    P.S. Some good data on race and sex differences in Dorans 2004 for anyone who is interested.
  30. “Are there any twins separated at birth studies on gayness?”

    how many identical twins are even hetero homo pairs?

    the Collins twins who played as NBA centers for a few mediocre years are the only twins i know of like that.

  31. @SFG
    Weird example, but that was actually in the Gor books. Women could join the physicians caste if they bred first. (Assuming they didn't get captured by the protagonist, of course.)

    Can we please not bring up John Norman while talking about what should be done with women?

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    Smash cut to 70 percent of the iSteve commentariat hanging their heads guiltily, thinking, Ugh, I can't believe I actually know who John Norman is.
  32. I want to know the cut-off point for when I can trust someone’s SATs.

    Use Mensa’s. It comes from their serious side.

    Can I submit my SAT scores to MENSA to apply?

    Yes (if you took the SAT before or on 1/31/1994). If taken prior to ’74, the requirement is 1300. If taken between then and ’94, the requirement is 1250. However, scores after 1/31/1994 are not accepted for membership. The reasoning behind this is based upon the viewpoint that the more recent SATs are considered achievement tests that can be studied for instead of raw measurements of general intelligence.

    https://www.quora.com/Can-I-submit-my-SAT-scores-to-MENSA-to-apply

    https://www.us.mensa.org/join/testscores/qualifying-test-scores/

    • Replies: @Alden
    I qualify for Mensa based on SAT scores but I have no idea of how to resurrect them from wherever.
  33. @J.Ross
    Can we please not bring up John Norman while talking about what should be done with women?

    Smash cut to 70 percent of the iSteve commentariat hanging their heads guiltily, thinking, Ugh, I can’t believe I actually know who John Norman is.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    SM Stirling offered a patrician alternative but it can't work in real life until CRISPr is further along.
    https://www.amazon.com/Drakon-S-M-Stirling/dp/0671877119
  34. there’s no gender or race norming of the SAT or ACT. Back in the 80s, they were worried about the gender gap, but the big changes, as I recall, were in the AP tests. They made it possible to fail the multiple choice test and still get a 5 on essay questions, because girls did better on essays.

    I think calculators were provided and analogies and antonyms eliminated because they were the hardest questions. But none of that is race or gender norming.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    Ed, great to see you here again. I am a big fan of yours, and I use your stuff. I teach your explanation of the difference between functions and equations every year. Thanks.
    , @res

    there’s no gender or race norming of the SAT or ACT.
     
    Intentional or not, Figures 18 - 21 in Dorans 2004 indicate that the 1995 SAT recentering was kind to Blacks and Hispanics.

    Black median scores went from 340/370 V/M to 420/420 V/M. An 80/50 increase.
    Hispanic median scores went from 370/410 V/M to 450/450 V/M. An 80/40 increase.
    And those groups were relatively unaffected by the lowered ceilings.

    White median scores went from 440/490 to 520/510. An 80/20 increase.
    Asian median scores went from 400/530 to 480/550. An 80/20 increase.
    And the lower verbal ceiling looks like an issue for both of those groups.

    And from Figures 16 and 17.

    Female median scores went from 410/450 to 500/480. A 90/30 increase.
    Male median scores went from 420/500 to 500/520. An 80/20 increase.
    The lowered verbal ceiling appears to have affected men a bit more than women.

  35. @SFG
    There was an old superstition that educating a woman would make her ovaries dry up.

    While the mechanism is obviously hogwash, it does seem to be true that educating women makes them have fewer kids.

    While the mechanism is obviously hogwash, it does seem to be true that educating women makes them have fewer kids.

    Let us agree to raise taxes to finance do-gooders to go to the 3rd world and educate the women there.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  36. @Anonymous
    I've heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score. Or perhaps that she scored very high (maybe perfect) on the math SAT when she was 7th-8th grader (SMPY study at JHU). I forget the story. Something like that.

    I did not get a perfect score. Missed one question on verbal exam. Rading comprehension...titling a piece., When I saw the score sheet, knew how I had got it wrong and what right answer was. You sort of have to train yourself to peak the "stereotypical answer". Best right answer, the one a test writer would think of, sort of put yourself in their brain. I had let my mind drift and put down the next best answer...and a title for a piece is somewhat qualitative.

    I'm also far from the brains of a Lisa Randall or any kind of Bessel-function whomping on the head physics rock star.

    Your SMPY reference reminded me of something I’ve wondered for a bit: how many iSteve readers are alumni / former study subjects of Julian Stanley’s programs at Hopkins? I doubt I’m the only one…

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    i went to baltimore in 88 or 89. so that's another.
  37. @education realist
    there's no gender or race norming of the SAT or ACT. Back in the 80s, they were worried about the gender gap, but the big changes, as I recall, were in the AP tests. They made it possible to fail the multiple choice test and still get a 5 on essay questions, because girls did better on essays.

    I think calculators were provided and analogies and antonyms eliminated because they were the hardest questions. But none of that is race or gender norming.

    Ed, great to see you here again. I am a big fan of yours, and I use your stuff. I teach your explanation of the difference between functions and equations every year. Thanks.

  38. It would be interesting to learn how the last 35 or so years have gone for the individuals profiled for their perfect SAT score.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I found 3. The Korean guy is a distinguished brain researcher at Georgetown U. The two white guys with unique enough names to identify appear to have changed careers a lot.

    The other two white guys had really common names and I wasn't able to track them down.

  39. How many identical twins-separated-at-an-early-age examples are there in the scientific literature?

    My “cousin” was and was part of a study at the University of Kentucky (I think it was). Anyway, there could not have been too many subjects, because they flew him and his brother from London to the US and gave them a 2-week vacation to participate in studies.

    My mother was a midwife and delivered twins to a woman who had no husband, and told her sister who had recently lost a baby, and they decided to take one home and keep him. Two would have been too expensive at that time with post-war austerity, food rationing etc.and he seemed like the pick of the litter.

    I did not know the true story for decades and he did not know he had a twin until he was an adult.

    It seems like the answer to a trivia question that my cousin is my cousin, but his identical twin is no relation to me.

    Fortunately neither of them has murdered anybody, so no opportunities for mistaken identity DNA test, but a few weeks ago a man I knew and had worked with was arrested on DNA evidence for a murder 34 years ago. People said he had a temper, but he never mentioned to me that he had killed anyone. Knowing him, he will probably claim that he has a secret twin.

  40. @Isidore the Farmer
    It would be interesting to learn how the last 35 or so years have gone for the individuals profiled for their perfect SAT score.

    I found 3. The Korean guy is a distinguished brain researcher at Georgetown U. The two white guys with unique enough names to identify appear to have changed careers a lot.

    The other two white guys had really common names and I wasn’t able to track them down.

  41. res says:
    @prime noticer
    i'm not sure the 1995 SAT re-center was that lopsided. i think steve is mistaken here, or made a typo. it seemed like combined scores went up almost 100, but about equally divided between math and verbal. way more test takers were scoring 800 on SAT math after the re-center.

    before the re-center, about 700 teenagers scored 800 on the math every year. this doesn't necessarily mean they answered every math question correctly. it seemed like you could miss 1 or 2 questions on SAT math and still score 800. on the verbal test it was an order of magnitude less common to score 800, and there, it felt like you DID have to answer every question correctly. one wrong answer on SAT verbal and your score went below 800.

    i remember reading in the 1980s that about 15 people were able to score 1600 in a single test on SAT every year. this wasn't a combined score from separate tests, but guys going in there in one shot and scoring 1600. this doesn't mean they answered every question correctly though, so there's still an upper echelon of a few guys who did get every question correct, but their score of 1600 is the same as other people who missed 1 or 2 and still scored 1600.

    one of the astronauts killed on the 1986 Challenger explosion, Judith Resnik, was the only girl to score 1600 on SAT in 1966, or i assume the year was 1966.

    wikipedia says that at the time, 1966, Resnik was one of only 16 girls to ever score 1600. so probably 1 or 2 girls at most from then on, every year, until the 1995 re-center, would be a good estimate. maybe 40 girls total? out of 15 million girl test takers? hard to estimate how many people were taking SAT back in the day, since that was before everybody "had" to go college. but that's a good rough estimate. about 1 in 500,000 girls who took the old SAT.

    i’m not sure the 1995 SAT re-center was that lopsided. i think steve is mistaken here, or made a typo. it seemed like combined scores went up almost 100, but about equally divided between math and verbal. way more test takers were scoring 800 on SAT math after the re-center.

    Steve overstated the difference a bit, but the real numbers are closer to what he said than 50/50.

    Dorans 2004 is pretty much the definitive reference for the 1995 recentering.
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf

    Table 1 indicates that for their 1990 reference group the verbal mean increased from 422 to 500 and the math mean increased from 475 to 500. So 78 and 25 points respectively.

    One issue is that the conversion is not linear (Dorans 2004 discusses this). Here is an equivalency table:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20120901161419/https://research.collegeboard.org/programs/sat/data/equivalence/sat-individual
    (some examples, 600 to 650 math scores are unchanged by conversion, and 660 to 710 math scores actually convert to 10 points lower)

    P.S. Some good data on race and sex differences in Dorans 2004 for anyone who is interested.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    thanks, haven't seen this.

    i get SAT results on my own once in a while and calculate the gender and group differences. i posted last year (?) about the trends in the 2010s.

    boys score about 3 wechlser points equivalent better than girls. although this varies by group (!). some of the groups have almost 0 difference between boys and girls.

    all groups are performing worse on the test now than they were at the beginning of the decade, except for "asians". as with the boy-girl performance difference, the rate of decline also varies by group.
  42. res says:
    @education realist
    there's no gender or race norming of the SAT or ACT. Back in the 80s, they were worried about the gender gap, but the big changes, as I recall, were in the AP tests. They made it possible to fail the multiple choice test and still get a 5 on essay questions, because girls did better on essays.

    I think calculators were provided and analogies and antonyms eliminated because they were the hardest questions. But none of that is race or gender norming.

    there’s no gender or race norming of the SAT or ACT.

    Intentional or not, Figures 18 – 21 in Dorans 2004 indicate that the 1995 SAT recentering was kind to Blacks and Hispanics.

    Black median scores went from 340/370 V/M to 420/420 V/M. An 80/50 increase.
    Hispanic median scores went from 370/410 V/M to 450/450 V/M. An 80/40 increase.
    And those groups were relatively unaffected by the lowered ceilings.

    White median scores went from 440/490 to 520/510. An 80/20 increase.
    Asian median scores went from 400/530 to 480/550. An 80/20 increase.
    And the lower verbal ceiling looks like an issue for both of those groups.

    And from Figures 16 and 17.

    Female median scores went from 410/450 to 500/480. A 90/30 increase.
    Male median scores went from 420/500 to 500/520. An 80/20 increase.
    The lowered verbal ceiling appears to have affected men a bit more than women.

  43. @prime noticer
    SAT deliberately gender normed as some sort of political policy? never, i don't think. this isn't the same as lowering the ceiling of the test though, which has a similar, but not exactly the same effect, mainly on SAT math.

    it's possible the original SAT, being based on the alpha test and princeton admission test, were somewhat gender normed in the sense that the existing stanford-binet and later wechsler were somewhat gender NERFED on purpose, that is, questions where women did a lot worse, were just thrown out of the test after a decade or two of testing, so those types of questions may have never been in SAT, which was developed out of those prior existing tests.

    so even today, wechsler, SAT, ravens, are all nerfed for women, and the results of paper and pencil intelligence tests are already skewed - women appear to perform about the same as men on average on paper tests, then go out and perform worse in the real world, leading to shrieking - but in reality the tests were nerfed on purpose to artificially make women look like they are about equally capable, whereas the real world is not nerfed for their benefit.

    SAT is also deliberately not a test of mechanical aptitude, where women would be way behind men and there'd be no good way to nerf the test enough to produce similar results for women and men. SAT is also not a test of something like hand-eye coordination.

    so adding up all those things. sometimes you get this internet discussion about intelligence tests where people ask, if men's brains are bigger, and women do just about as well on intelligence tests, then men must be getting almost nothing out of their bigger brains.

    this is a misreading of the situation. men are getting more out of their bigger brains. their actual performance on intelligence tests is higher, such that the tests have to be nerfed for women, and even then, men do about 3 to 4 points better. men also have higher mechanical aptitude, and much better hand-eye coordination. just like a computer with an added graphics card, the mostly electrical brain requires more neurons to do those calculations, so men have bigger brains to do them really fast and accurately, women mostly don't.

    the real world is not nerfed for their benefit.

    Citation needed.

  44. The reason there are so many twin studies about so many issues is simple. It’s because so many attributes or abilities are fundamentally genetic. But why there are not as many gay twin studies as you expected is also simple – Homosexuality is probably an infection. No one knows for sure because there is so much social effort to maintain the official mystery . Powerful forces want gayness to remain a mystery.

    My hypothesis is that its caused by plasmodium gondi. I don’t have a lab or a cadre of post grads so I’m just speculating – but it makes some sense.

  45. Supposedly Chuck Schumer got a perfect SAT score. But you have to take into account that Schumer worked for a test prep company and had taken it 26 times (or so I heard). I got a perfect score on the similar GRE test (verbal not the math sub-test) and I only took it once.

    My perfect verbal score only came when the test was re-calibrated. I had had a real good initial score but not perfect. Later I read here that they had fiddled with the scoring and I ascended to perfection. Funny I didn’t feel any smarter.

    Even if I am as smart as can be I’m certainly not equal to Lisa Randall. I’v tried to read her book twice.
    No luck.

  46. @Chris Renner
    Your SMPY reference reminded me of something I've wondered for a bit: how many iSteve readers are alumni / former study subjects of Julian Stanley's programs at Hopkins? I doubt I'm the only one...

    i went to baltimore in 88 or 89. so that’s another.

    • Replies: @Chris Renner
    I was in Ireland in 1995. (CTYI wasn't directly started by Stanley, but absent the Talent Search I never would have been there.)
  47. @res

    i’m not sure the 1995 SAT re-center was that lopsided. i think steve is mistaken here, or made a typo. it seemed like combined scores went up almost 100, but about equally divided between math and verbal. way more test takers were scoring 800 on SAT math after the re-center.
     
    Steve overstated the difference a bit, but the real numbers are closer to what he said than 50/50.

    Dorans 2004 is pretty much the definitive reference for the 1995 recentering.
    https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf

    Table 1 indicates that for their 1990 reference group the verbal mean increased from 422 to 500 and the math mean increased from 475 to 500. So 78 and 25 points respectively.

    One issue is that the conversion is not linear (Dorans 2004 discusses this). Here is an equivalency table:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20120901161419/https://research.collegeboard.org/programs/sat/data/equivalence/sat-individual
    (some examples, 600 to 650 math scores are unchanged by conversion, and 660 to 710 math scores actually convert to 10 points lower)

    P.S. Some good data on race and sex differences in Dorans 2004 for anyone who is interested.

    thanks, haven’t seen this.

    i get SAT results on my own once in a while and calculate the gender and group differences. i posted last year (?) about the trends in the 2010s.

    boys score about 3 wechlser points equivalent better than girls. although this varies by group (!). some of the groups have almost 0 difference between boys and girls.

    all groups are performing worse on the test now than they were at the beginning of the decade, except for “asians”. as with the boy-girl performance difference, the rate of decline also varies by group.

  48. It seems like tweaking to drive up scores is increasing in frequency

    The ACT is at least twice as easy to ace as the SAT, because its scoring is less granular, allowing more scores to round up to perfect.

    SAT scores of 1570-1600 are equivalent to ACT of 36. The top 25% of Harvard admittees supposedly score a perfect 1600, but this may be the result of converting 1570-1600 SATs to 36 ACT and back to 1600 SAT in a concordance process:
    https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/guide-2018-act-sat-concordance.pdf

    In other words, Harvard and its peers may be rounding 1570 scores to 1600 prior to reporting their results to US News.

  49. @Reg Cæsar

    I want to know the cut-off point for when I can trust someone’s SATs.
     
    Use Mensa's. It comes from their serious side.


    Can I submit my SAT scores to MENSA to apply?


    Yes (if you took the SAT before or on 1/31/1994). If taken prior to '74, the requirement is 1300. If taken between then and '94, the requirement is 1250. However, scores after 1/31/1994 are not accepted for membership. The reasoning behind this is based upon the viewpoint that the more recent SATs are considered achievement tests that can be studied for instead of raw measurements of general intelligence.

    https://www.quora.com/Can-I-submit-my-SAT-scores-to-MENSA-to-apply
     
    https://www.us.mensa.org/join/testscores/qualifying-test-scores/

    I qualify for Mensa based on SAT scores but I have no idea of how to resurrect them from wherever.

    • Replies: @res
    https://www.thoughtco.com/how-to-find-old-sat-scores-3211582
  50. @J.Ross
    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia, but admit them and pay full ride to all levels if they have kids in a marriage. So after you have two kids and get them to be preteens you can become a medical doctor (pending test scores) without paying for a single lab coat. That, plus ending no-fault divorce, plus reforming the education system and its funding, would be big but by no means impossible, it wouldn't be in the same ballpark as the space program, and it would right our population woes in a generation.

    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia

    From what I understand, something like this happens after general societal failure, and it happens because the surviving women demand it. Reflex: when things get difficult, find a man and hold on to him. Also, don’t let other women threaten his position. Also, have children and form alliances with relatives. Put them all together, scale up to the whole society, and they make feudalism, a sort of semi-civilized tribal society. Driven by protecting women and women’s demands to be protected at each stage.

    History is a bit strange. Once women can marry the government, everything changes.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    If you look at really old cartoons like they showed in the early to mid eighties, before somebody decided that Mighty Mouse (and not a nexus of Wall Street and immigrants) was making people snort coke, you will inevitably see a brief but frequently attested "nightmare marriage" caricature. It's actually a representation of the interwar dating scene, with much younger men marrying older women they couldn't control.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    Once women can marry the government, everything changes.
     
    And for the worse.
  51. Anon[289] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    My son took home a 1600 in 2002 (first time, no test prep classes). My scores circa 1965 were 745/697 and 761/649. Certainly a vast difference in the demographics! He would have gotten into Caltech if he'd been a girl or the right minority, but of course he was wait-listed--and probably that was a good thing.

    Bill in Glendale

    He would have gotten into Caltech if he’d been a girl.

    Why wasn’t he a girl? But yeah, I guess that was a little early. Today I would definitely tell my son to become a girl at least for applications season.

    If I were a college admissions consultant, I would be advising my clients who had smart sons to have them put up some trans-related videos on YouTube, starting from a couple of years before college application season. The kid could wear a mask or something. The key is to get some trans-related content up, datestamped, on YouTube, and then during application season throw up some videos exposing his face. The script can be copied from any of the millions of teen trans channels. After acceptance, delete the channel. Have him wear slightly unisex clothing for the orientation and maybe for half a semester, then he can turn back into a boy. If anyone asks any questions, he can demur, saying it’s private, and then call the family attorney.

  52. Anon[289] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?

    The term Plomin uses for this is “MZ twins reared apart,” if you want to do some Googling. In his book he says:

    The most dramatic test of genetic influence is to study MZ twins separated by adoption early in life. They share nature completely but do not share nurture at all, so their similarity is a direct test of genetic influence. MZ twins reared apart are of course extremely rare. Only a few hundred pairs have been studied worldwide. These cases have produced some amazing examples of similarity.

    Some interesting stories. Then …

    But these are anecdotes, and the plural of anecdote is not data. Even though there are not many pairs of MZ twins reared apart, their results support other genetic research in pointing to substantial genetic influence. In general, MZ twins reared apart are almost as similar as MZ twins reared together, indicating that what makes them so similar is nature, not nurture.

    As described earlier, the most straightforward estimate of heritability comes from the correlation for MZ twins reared apart. Their correlation directly estimates heritability. If the correlation for MZ twins reared apart is 0, heritability is 0, whereas a correlation of 1.0 indicates heritability of 100 per cent. Although MZ twins reared apart are extremely rare, results for several hundred such pairs have been reported. A well-known study in the US is the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart, which comprised fifty-six pairs of MZ twins reared apart

    I was involved in a study in Sweden that systematically identified twins from birth records and found more than a hundred pairs of MZ twins reared apart. Most of these twins were elderly, born in the early twentieth century. The reason for their separation was an economic depression in Swedish agrarian society at the time, coupled with a high risk of maternal death during twin birth. This resulted in many twins being put up for adoption and adopted separately early in life. These reared-apart twins became participants in our Swedish Adoption/Twin Study of Aging. Their correlation for weight was also 0.73.

    Across all studies of MZ twins reared apart, the twin correlation for weight is 0.75. This indicates that 75 per cent of the differences between people in weight (variance) is shared (covariance) by these pairs of genetically identical individuals who did not grow up in the same family environment. For this reason, the correlation between identical twins reared apart is a simple, direct estimate of heritability: the extent to which differences in weight between individuals can be accounted for by inherited DNA differences.

    Plomin, Robert. Blueprint (The MIT Press). The MIT Press. Kindle Edition.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Are most MZ twins reared apart completely separated by bureaucratic adoption agency mechanisms, like in the documentary about the triplets last year, who didn't know the others existed. Or are they more like mom dies, dad is drunk or gone or in prison, and eventually mom's cousin takes one baby and dad's aunt takes the other baby and they grow up somewhat aware of each other but with little contact?
  53. @Anon

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?
     
    The term Plomin uses for this is "MZ twins reared apart," if you want to do some Googling. In his book he says:


    The most dramatic test of genetic influence is to study MZ twins separated by adoption early in life. They share nature completely but do not share nurture at all, so their similarity is a direct test of genetic influence. MZ twins reared apart are of course extremely rare. Only a few hundred pairs have been studied worldwide. These cases have produced some amazing examples of similarity.
     
    Some interesting stories. Then ...

    But these are anecdotes, and the plural of anecdote is not data. Even though there are not many pairs of MZ twins reared apart, their results support other genetic research in pointing to substantial genetic influence. In general, MZ twins reared apart are almost as similar as MZ twins reared together, indicating that what makes them so similar is nature, not nurture.
     

    As described earlier, the most straightforward estimate of heritability comes from the correlation for MZ twins reared apart. Their correlation directly estimates heritability. If the correlation for MZ twins reared apart is 0, heritability is 0, whereas a correlation of 1.0 indicates heritability of 100 per cent. Although MZ twins reared apart are extremely rare, results for several hundred such pairs have been reported. A well-known study in the US is the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart, which comprised fifty-six pairs of MZ twins reared apart
     

    I was involved in a study in Sweden that systematically identified twins from birth records and found more than a hundred pairs of MZ twins reared apart. Most of these twins were elderly, born in the early twentieth century. The reason for their separation was an economic depression in Swedish agrarian society at the time, coupled with a high risk of maternal death during twin birth. This resulted in many twins being put up for adoption and adopted separately early in life. These reared-apart twins became participants in our Swedish Adoption/Twin Study of Aging. Their correlation for weight was also 0.73.

    Across all studies of MZ twins reared apart, the twin correlation for weight is 0.75. This indicates that 75 per cent of the differences between people in weight (variance) is shared (covariance) by these pairs of genetically identical individuals who did not grow up in the same family environment. For this reason, the correlation between identical twins reared apart is a simple, direct estimate of heritability: the extent to which differences in weight between individuals can be accounted for by inherited DNA differences.
     
    Plomin, Robert. Blueprint (The MIT Press). The MIT Press. Kindle Edition.

    Are most MZ twins reared apart completely separated by bureaucratic adoption agency mechanisms, like in the documentary about the triplets last year, who didn’t know the others existed. Or are they more like mom dies, dad is drunk or gone or in prison, and eventually mom’s cousin takes one baby and dad’s aunt takes the other baby and they grow up somewhat aware of each other but with little contact?

    • Replies: @Anon
    Here's an anti-twin studies SJW psychologist who has written a book on the messiness of twin studies:

    Studies of Reared-Apart (Separated) Twins: Facts and Fallacies
    https://www.madinamerica.com/2014/12/studies-reared-apart-separated-twins-facts-fallacies/

    The Trouble with Twin Studies
    https://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Twin-Studies-Reassessment-Behavioral-ebook-dp-B00PWAKHQA/dp/B00PWAKHQA/

    Scanning his blog post, it seems like the time of separation can indeed vary. But Plomin believes in this stuff and he knows the details, so it would be interesting to get his opinion. His book is still new enough that maybe he would be eager to be e-mail interviewed by you to help publicize it.

  54. Anon[289] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Are most MZ twins reared apart completely separated by bureaucratic adoption agency mechanisms, like in the documentary about the triplets last year, who didn't know the others existed. Or are they more like mom dies, dad is drunk or gone or in prison, and eventually mom's cousin takes one baby and dad's aunt takes the other baby and they grow up somewhat aware of each other but with little contact?

    Here’s an anti-twin studies SJW psychologist who has written a book on the messiness of twin studies:

    Studies of Reared-Apart (Separated) Twins: Facts and Fallacies
    https://www.madinamerica.com/2014/12/studies-reared-apart-separated-twins-facts-fallacies/

    The Trouble with Twin Studies

    Scanning his blog post, it seems like the time of separation can indeed vary. But Plomin believes in this stuff and he knows the details, so it would be interesting to get his opinion. His book is still new enough that maybe he would be eager to be e-mail interviewed by you to help publicize it.

  55. Anon[221] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?

    I suspect they must be more numerous, but poorly indexed. They are hard to perform, but they were one of the few things one could do before DNA sequencing. That is, possibly, a century of genetics, or more than two thirds of genetics history.

    Also, DNA matching (more accurately, similarity) in modern genetics is a poor equivalent to the real matching seen in monozygous twins. The lazy modern approach makes think of “Jewish genetics”.

  56. “It seems like tweaking to drive up scores is increasing in frequency, but it’s hard to get a straight story.”

    This statement is also true of Adderall.

  57. I did well on the SAT, but that was back when most of the questions were like, ‘how many yacht races in a regatta?’ or ‘what degree wedge should you use from 65 yards off hardpan?’

  58. Anonymous[217] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    My son took home a 1600 in 2002 (first time, no test prep classes). My scores circa 1965 were 745/697 and 761/649. Certainly a vast difference in the demographics! He would have gotten into Caltech if he'd been a girl or the right minority, but of course he was wait-listed--and probably that was a good thing.

    Bill in Glendale

    Caltech is one of the few elite schools that DOESN’T use affirmative action or legacy admissions.

    Stop assuming that every school uses unfair admissions criteria.

  59. @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    But separated-soon-after-birth twins are a distinctive category. Last time I checked, in the early 2000s, the sample size in the scientific literature was in the few hundred range. Have there been many more such cases added since then?

    In the book of Robert Plomin about this subject, Blueprint, the « new » twin studies are TEDS (twins early development study in the Uk). They assessed 2000 twins pair. MZ twins are one third of those, meaning 600 pair. But they are not reared apart.

    The only MZ reared aparts cited by Plomin who is the expert on this are (1) MISTRA, Minnesota; it was 56 pairs and the Swedish adoption twin study who identified all twins in Sweden. MZ given to adoption and reared apart was 100.

    Given how rare it is to give white kids to adoption and how immoral separating twins is believed to be, we can guess – mutatis mutandis – there will be no more cases in the future that those 156 pairs.

    Inhis index, there is no reference to sexual orientation but Plomin avoided touchy subjects. There is no reference to race either. Only the word racism gets a mention p53.

    So it’s perfectly probable that the sexual orientation was recorded. Or at least an old bachelor situation should have been recorded and in the case the subject were living openly in a gay couple, it’s obvious the Psy would have recorded it too.

    So I guess the data is there – only two studies – unexploited. But it is not very powerful because less 3% of people identified as gay in those generations. You would have need at least 300 pairs to get a not random direct approximation of heredity.

    Maybe in China or India they’ll do it …

  60. P26 of his Blueprint, Plomin writes MISTRA had 56 pair of MZ twins.

    But I just read an article where the author – who presents those twins studies – say there were 81 MZ twins and 56 DE twins. So Plomin made have made a mistake here.

    So it would be 181 pair of twins reared apart if Plomin didn’t make another mistake in the Swedish study. I don’t have time to check now.

    https://www.amphilsoc.org/sites/default/files/2017-07/attachments/Segal.pdf

  61. @prime noticer
    i went to baltimore in 88 or 89. so that's another.

    I was in Ireland in 1995. (CTYI wasn’t directly started by Stanley, but absent the Talent Search I never would have been there.)

  62. And Danish people have since 1924 a registry of 85k twins and a registry of 14,5k adoptees wich are actualized. Lots of adoptees are just half brothers coming from « prole » environnement.

    The registry are open to the public so I guess it’s possible to identify the MZ twins adoptees. There should be at least one hundred there. Putting the total number of MZA to 300.

    And with the one child policy in China, I wonder if there is data of twins reared apart, one staying with his family and the other being adopted. Probably there is …

  63. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    This is just a data point for an argument which, though correct, has long since been steam-rollered by Various Implacable Forces, and so is merely offered in a "the dog barks and the caravan moves on" sorta way. So it kind of no longer matters, except to people who care about reality.

    White-ethnic gentile working class urban kid, circa 1980. No test-prep at all, except for taking a practice exam once in order to be familiar with the format. No particular "privileges" to speak of, except a stable healthy two-parent family, decent teachers, a good local library, and some reliable friends. Flippant boy scout, street roller-hockey player. (So: nerd, but not THAT nerd.)

    Near-perfect scores (off by only one each, on Math and Verbal.)

    As to Math: didn't care, never really liked Math, but did all the homework anyway because you were supposed to.

    Verbal is more peculiar: taking the test was like doing the Junior Jumble on the funny pages, it literally took me as long to take the test as it did to read it. It was like reading a page of "Blondie" comics.

    Reason? I didn't study for the bloody thing, I simply spent a lot of time as a kid reading Coleridge, Conrad, Shaw, and Oscar Wilde.

    Moral of the story: for Math, do your damn homework. For Verbal: kid, if you don't actually LIKE reading "Gawain and the Green Knight" and "How He Lied To Her Husband," then why do you even /want/ to go to college?

    Very pleasant, reassuring to read this thread, getting a sense of the best of iSteve followers.

    I never took the SAT but sat for the GRE exam to apply to graduate schools. I got a perfect score in the verbal part and it got me accepted into Harvard. Granted that I learned nothing much there, I treasure the memory of my 4 years in that bubble. My friend Donald Lyons well likened it to the Love Tunnel ride in Coney Island: you get on and go around in the boat and come around to where you got on and then you have to get off.

  64. Dr Leonard Heston, who was at the University of Minnesota, has done several studies on twins and homosexuality :

    I just found this one :

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-of-psychiatry/article/homosexuality-in-monozygotic-twins-reared-apart/B20D4B45B348DFE2DA2404C65A192AD3#

  65. @Alden
    I qualify for Mensa based on SAT scores but I have no idea of how to resurrect them from wherever.
  66. And there is a big twin study (MZ Versus DZ, no MZA) that would be consistant witb the 6 Mistra that allows to infère a difference between male and female homosexuality :

    40% genetic for males. Shared environnement 0%.
    20% for female. Shared environement 20%.

    Gay are born. Lesbian are made.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18536986/

  67. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    Smash cut to 70 percent of the iSteve commentariat hanging their heads guiltily, thinking, Ugh, I can't believe I actually know who John Norman is.

    SM Stirling offered a patrician alternative but it can’t work in real life until CRISPr is further along.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
    Sterling: _Drakon_

    That was part of an extremely bloody series. Think of the Western world during the heyday of imperialism saying "OK, no more Mr. Nice Guy" and following policies like Stalin's on a bad day [1]. Yuck.

    Still, whatever's stable, stabs.

    Counerinsurgency

    1] Victor Suvorov, "The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to start WW II", Naval Institute Press, 2008. In the Draka series, Stalin, Hitler, Churchill, and FDR ran into leadership meaner and a deal smarter, but not nearly so nice.
  68. @Counterinsurgency

    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia
     
    From what I understand, something like this happens after general societal failure, and it happens because the surviving women demand it. Reflex: when things get difficult, find a man and hold on to him. Also, don't let other women threaten his position. Also, have children and form alliances with relatives. Put them all together, scale up to the whole society, and they make feudalism, a sort of semi-civilized tribal society. Driven by protecting women and women's demands to be protected at each stage.

    History is a bit strange. Once women can marry the government, everything changes.

    Counterinsurgency

    If you look at really old cartoons like they showed in the early to mid eighties, before somebody decided that Mighty Mouse (and not a nexus of Wall Street and immigrants) was making people snort coke, you will inevitably see a brief but frequently attested “nightmare marriage” caricature. It’s actually a representation of the interwar dating scene, with much younger men marrying older women they couldn’t control.

  69. Anonymous[536] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel H
    I ’ve heard that Lisa Randall got a perfect SAT score

    >>Lisa Randall Theoretical physicist, Harvard University ... Randall, who isn't married and doesn't have children, spends the bulk of her time ...

    What a waste. And Lisa Randall has an equally brilliant (and beautiful) sister - Dana Randall - who also doesn't appear to be married. What a waste.

    I dated Dana, back in the day. She was very sexual attractive in a turned on sort of way. I usually just date waitresses and nurses, so n0t used to a smart girl. (It’s not that I fear a smart girl…but that life is hard enough and I want sympathy and heart from the female.) But she was cool. And I could hang. Wasn’t intellectually overbearing, although, sure, smart.

    I had never heard of Lisa…but she is supposedly some big deal…and her sister knew that (believe me)..strange to be a Harvard grad and tenured GA Tech professor and still have someone a notch above you. But she was just off in the distance. Never met her or even knew her repute until picking up Dana. Of course isn’t that how it usually is with older siblings?

    Maybe we missed our chance to make little 150 IQ babies? Not her fault really, mine. Honestly, Dana was cool. Juggler.

  70. @J.Ross
    SM Stirling offered a patrician alternative but it can't work in real life until CRISPr is further along.
    https://www.amazon.com/Drakon-S-M-Stirling/dp/0671877119

    Sterling: _Drakon_

    That was part of an extremely bloody series. Think of the Western world during the heyday of imperialism saying “OK, no more Mr. Nice Guy” and following policies like Stalin’s on a bad day [1]. Yuck.

    Still, whatever’s stable, stabs.

    Counerinsurgency

    1] Victor Suvorov, “The Chief Culprit: Stalin’s Grand Design to start WW II”, Naval Institute Press, 2008. In the Draka series, Stalin, Hitler, Churchill, and FDR ran into leadership meaner and a deal smarter, but not nearly so nice.

  71. @prime noticer
    SAT deliberately race normed? well, that's currently happening, thanks to David Coleman. but not in a technical way. in an artificial way.

    a few months ago when this policy was announced, i made a big post, going back and examining the history of the College Board, and discussing the previous 5 presidents. i didn't feel like going back further than that, since College Board made it hard to find this information, and i'm not getting paid. but 5 presidents was far enough.

    David Coleman 2012-today
    Gaston Caperton 1999-2012
    Donald Stewart 1986-1999
    George Hanford 1979-1986
    Sidney Marland 1972-1979

    see that guy Donald Stewart? that's where SAT began the process of "race norming" in earnest. in spirit, if not yet in practice.

    the guy before him, George Hanford, took seriously criticism of SAT being unfair to various groups, did genuine academic studies on it, and concluded that no, it was about as fair as possible. this started in 1980, and was probably, technically, were the value of the test began to be eroded, bureaucratically. in this time period it became acceptable to mount serious attacks on the validity of SAT. before that, in the 70s and earlier, during the real United States, and strong WASP control, the occasionally spurious attack of that nature was correctly just ignored. but after that point, Hanford taking the attacks seriously, it was all downhill. each president after that viewed the test with increasing suspicion about group differences and fairness.

    the guy before him, Sidney Marland, was a died in the wool academic leftist, who lead an academic attack on the entire concept of intelligence. in 1972 he published something called The Marland Report, which was strictly ivory tower flim flammery designed to discredit everything we knew about how brainpower worked.

    prior to any of that, about the only changes that i think happened were some minor changes to the vocabulary on SAT verbal, to make it less provincial.

    the guy before him, Sidney Marland, was a died in the wool academic leftist

    I think it is “dyed in the wool” but other than that, a good comment.

    Gaston Caperton was a doofus governor of West Virginia and I was surprised that he failed that far upwards.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Ever consider that it wasn't up?
  72. @Counterinsurgency

    A real government would restrict women from higher learning or academia
     
    From what I understand, something like this happens after general societal failure, and it happens because the surviving women demand it. Reflex: when things get difficult, find a man and hold on to him. Also, don't let other women threaten his position. Also, have children and form alliances with relatives. Put them all together, scale up to the whole society, and they make feudalism, a sort of semi-civilized tribal society. Driven by protecting women and women's demands to be protected at each stage.

    History is a bit strange. Once women can marry the government, everything changes.

    Counterinsurgency

    Once women can marry the government, everything changes.

    And for the worse.

  73. @Jim Don Bob

    the guy before him, Sidney Marland, was a died in the wool academic leftist
     
    I think it is "dyed in the wool" but other than that, a good comment.

    Gaston Caperton was a doofus governor of West Virginia and I was surprised that he failed that far upwards.

    Ever consider that it wasn’t up?

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