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From Global Voices:

The Upsetting Ethnic Taxonomy of Russia’s Richest Businessmen
Posted 28 October 2014 22:14 GMT

One of Russia’s most popular news websites, the once vaunted Lenta.ru, finds itself at the center of a scandal today, after publishing an ethnic breakdown of Russia’s 200 richest people. According to the study, 44.5 percent of Russia’s wealthiest citizens are ethnically Russian, 21 percent are Jewish, 12 percent are Ukrainian, followed by smaller percentages of Tatars, Armenians, and a dozen or so other nationalities. “Overall,” the report concludes questionably, “it’s clear how different ethnic groups in a multiethnic country have used a collaborative solidarity and response to the beginning of the ‘capitalist era’ to build a new kind of economic and political life.”

Lenta’s study is based on Forbes’ 2014 ratings of Russia’s “200 Richest Businessmen,” though Elmar Murtazaev, Forbes’ chief editor, has already criticized the ethnic breakdown.

On Facebook, Murtazaev questioned Lenta’s judgment, implying that Forbes has considered analyzing the nationalities of its “top 200” list, but rejected the idea every year for the last decade. “What was published isn’t an investigation,” he argued online, calling Lenta’s work “nothing more than pure speculation.”

Funny, but Forbes Israel recently published a cover story in Hebrew listing the world’s Jewish billionaires. It’s almost as if wealthy Jews love reading lists of rich Jews.

(Indeed, Lenta’s authors themselves admit that many individuals on Forbes’ list don’t advertise their nationality, making it difficult to assign labels.)

Murtazaev isn’t the only one upset about Lenta’s study. Nikolai Svanidze, a media personality and a member of Russia’s Civic Chamber (a consultative body within the Kremlin), says Lenta’s article is racist—even fascist. Natalia Gevorkyan, another prominent Russian journalist, also disliked the piece, asking on Facebook if its publication embarrassed Alexander Mamut, who ranks 42nd on Forbes’ list and owns Lenta’s parent group, Rambler & Co.

In today’s world, it’s the duty of the media to comfort the comfortable. How dare journalists publish anything about billionaires that the billionaires would prefer hoi polloi not be informed about?

… As it happens, this isn’t the first time a Russian news site published an ethnic breakdown of Forbes’ top-200 richest men in Russia. Two years ago, Pavel Pryanikov’s website Ttolk.ru posted a nearly identical study (with roughly the same findings) that also looked at businessmen’s class history (tracking their socioeconomic trajectories from Soviet times). On Facebook, Pryanikov reminded readers of his website’s “been there, done that” accomplishment, and pointed out that it is hypocritical for Murtazaev to attack Lenta, as Forbes itself has ranked the world’s richest Jews and Armenians.

There are undoubtedly many reasons for apprehensions about Lenta’s study. Methodologically, it’s nearly impossible to establish the ethnicity of many of Russia’s oligarchs (whose mixed heritage defies classification). Ethically, on the other hand, liberals in Russia are averse to racial taxonomies that threaten to stir ethnic tensions. Indeed, the chief finding in both Lenta’s article and Pryanikov’s study is that ethnic Russians are heavily underrepresented in the Russian elite, relative to their numbers in the general population. Presumably, and perhaps justifiably, Russian nationalists’ critics fear statistics like these could catapult their adversaries to political prominence.

The single most dangerous worry since 1914 is that of a major land war in central and eastern Europe. Therefore, it’s important to debunk false assumptions that stoke perilous hatreds involving that region. One of the most destabilizing and least true myths at present is the widespread belief in the U.S. that the Putin regime in Russia is anti-Semitic.

By all objective evidence, Putin would be considered pro-Semitic, as is often pointed out by Israel’s foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman. But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes.

In reality, Jews are doing extremely well under the pro-Semitic Putin, being disproportionately represented in the ranks of Russia’s billionaires by perhaps a couple of orders of magnitude. That’s an important fact that shouldn’t be hushed up: knowing the truth can help cool off the war fever.

 
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  1. 5371 says:

    The article is extremely shoddy work (not exactly surprising from lenta.ru). They seem to think everyone with a Ukrainian surname is Ukrainian, which makes as much sense as calling David Cameron Scottish.

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  2. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Azeri millionaires work together to make more azeri millionaires. Same with most tribes in this world.

    Jewish millionaires however are most often millionaires DESPITE all of the other Jewish millionaires out there.

    I won’t waste any more second arguing this point that has zero chance of convincing anyone.

    For an IQ and Creativity obsessed bunch, all logic is tossed aside when it comes to the statistics of Jewish success.

    Done talking to your collective gasses.

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    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    "all logic is tossed aside when it comes to the statistics of Jewish success.

    Done talking to your collective gasses."

    You and your tasteful name will be missed.
    , @John
    It's not that logic is tossed out the window. It's that the total high IQ individuals statistics are well on the side of the orders of magnitude greater gentile population, even with one-standard deviation removed average intelligence (not quite one standard deviation, but I'm allowing the extra 5 points to slide for the sake of argument).

    Also, your logic doesn't hold when gentiles are politically prohibited from openly co-operating along ethnic lines and Jews have the media and government's de facto permission to openly co-operate along ethnic lines. Celebrating Jews for imagined superior success is like celebrating winning a race when your opponent's legs are cuffed.

    Your admonishment for our supposed lack of logic is insulting in its lack of obvious logic.
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  3. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Actually I’m surprised it’s only 1/5. I though it would be higher. I think it’s a similar ratio to USA, except it would under the category of “religion”

    BTW, Jews are doing well everywhere, including Israel.

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  4. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Jews were very prominent int he early rape of Russia following the collapse of communism and the USSR. Having a bumbling drunken fool as a leader didn’t help the Russian cause either. Jews took advantage of the situation to the detriment of ordinary Russians.

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    • Replies: @Realist
    Jews were prominent in creating Russian communism also
    , @Anon
    "Jews were very prominent int he early rape of Russia following the collapse of communism and the USSR. Having a bumbling drunken fool as a leader didn’t help the Russian cause either. Jews took advantage of the situation to the detriment of ordinary Russians."

    Half true.

    Yes, Russians had a drunken leader, but the bigger problem was most of them were as drunk if not drunker than Yeltsin.
    A lot of Russians still have a peasant mentality.
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  5. Plu says:

    “The article is extremely shoddy work (not exactly surprising from lenta.ru). They seem to think everyone with a Ukrainian surname is Ukrainian, which makes as much sense as calling David Cameron Scottish.”
    Yeah it seems the majority listed as Ukrainians or Belarussians are Jews. There’s also some with names like Vladimir Vladimirov or Alexander Alexandrov who have patronymics like Lipmanovich or Solomonovych.

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  6. Michael says:

    Actually the Mountain(Caucasus) Jews are listed separately. According to Lenta, there are 6 of them in the top 200 list (3%).

    So, the Jewish total is 24%, a little bit less than a quarter of the list.

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  7. Chiron says:

    The jewish-american elite wants WWIII Steve, they got all wars they wanted: WWI, WWII, Iraq Invasion, the current mess in the Middle-East.

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  8. Twinkie says:

    Question: is it possible that elite Jews are doing well in Putin’s Russia but ordinary Jews may not be?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    No.
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  9. Doug says:

    Wouldn’t the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number. Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn’t represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent. Maybe the discrimination free level in Russia is 1/3 or 1/2. Russian Jews may suffer from discrimination in business, but at the end of the day may be the only sober and competent people around.

    A fair metric is to look at Russian Jews and Russian gentiles in the US. The US has virtually no Jewish vs. Slavic discrimination compared to Eastern Europe, so its a good benchmark. As far as I’m aware nearly 80% or more of Russian-American billionaires in the US are Jewish. The fact that the ratio of Russian Jews to gentiles among American billionaires is the inverse of mother Russia, is highly indicative of strong discrimination by the Putin regime.

    (Yes proportionally more Russians in America are Jewish, but I’d assume that among the population that can rise to billionaire level, virtually any could get a visa to the US. The great unwashed masses of Siberian (unanimously gentile) farmers are irrelevant to the analysis. None of them have any chance of becoming a billionaire under any regime.)

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes
     
    Not really. The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates. Any excuse will do really - anti-Semitism, homophobia, whatever. Those are just pretexts. The war fever will continue as long as the US percieves Russia to be a fundamentally weak state, riven by ethnic tension, far too dependent on oil revenue, and whose elites will be as loyal to Putin if things go badly as the Ukrainian oligarchs were loyal to Yanukovich. If you are a "realist", the time to take Russia down is now, while we can still use Saudi cheap oil to destroy the Russian economy. What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    Undermining Russia actually makes a lot of sense geopolitically for the US, if you are a neocon interested in US global power projection as the final arbiter of success.

    , @Anon
    "Wouldn’t the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number."

    A legit question. But considering the nature of the business climate after the fall of the USSR, I think a lot of corruption was involved among both Jews and Russians.

    Also, Russian Jews had one great advantage since they were coached, funded, and aided by super-Jews in EU and US. That is invaluable advice.

    In contrast, Russians had to build everything on their own.
    , @pumpkinperson
    Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn’t represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent.

    Doug, currently the only black billionaire in all of North America is Oprah, who just became the first multibillionaire black in North American history:


    http://pumpkinperson.com/2014/10/21/big-brained-oprah-becomes-first-multibillionaire-black-in-north-american-history/

    To make that much money you often need some kind of obvious biological advantage. Jewish people have certain genes that may enhance IQ. Oprah is arguably the biggest brained member of both her race and her gender:

    http://brainsize.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-brain-size-of-the-worlds-most-successful-woman/

    That doesn't mean other factors don't also play a role.
    , @Anonymous
    "I’m aware nearly 80% or more of Russian-American billionaires in the US are Jewish"

    You left out the number of Russians and jewish Russians there, there could also be a majority of jewish Russians in America.
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  10. @Twinkie
    Question: is it possible that elite Jews are doing well in Putin's Russia but ordinary Jews may not be?

    No.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I say that because it's a classic Dog That Didn't Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn't we?
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  11. @Steve Sailer
    No.

    I say that because it’s a classic Dog That Didn’t Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn’t we?

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I say that because it’s a classic Dog That Didn’t Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn’t we?
     
    Unless the elite Jews who have it good are discouraging such complaints to keep the party going.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    Ordinary Jews mostly left Russia as soon as they could in the 1990s. The Jews that are left are either doing very well, doing very badly or are very assimilated. It is not so much a case of Russian anti-semitism, as it is simply that it is very easy for Jews to leave Russia (or Ukraine) and find a support network in Israel, the US or, increasingly, Germany. Most people of any ethnic group who have the opportunity to leave the former Soviet Union for a decent life in the West take advantage of that opportunity.
    , @KA
    That's why Israelis with Russian origin are returning to Russia . They find themselves discriminated by fanatic more exclusive Israeli religious body. Obviously this discrimination must have affected their purse or monetary futures . That could be the only reason for them to depart the promised land .
    , @Lot

    if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn’t we?
     
    Certainly an extremely high percentage of them, probably a majority, left the country. There are worse things for law abiding middle-income burgers than being disliked by resentful proles because of your ethnicity.
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  12. Whiskey says: • Website

    Steve, I love ya, but you gotta stop thinking like a Paleocon. True, Putin is not anti-Semitic and if anything, his Mini-Me USSR has stomped nationalism. Putin may have imprisoned Pussy Riot for insulting Orthodox Christmas goers as much as him, but he’s stopped Ultranationalists upset at half of Central Asia moving to Moscow from doing anything substantial in pushing Central Asian Muslims back to their homeland.

    Like the USSR, Putin’s Russia is multicultural by official decree and very Islam friendly.

    “Rush to war” if there is one won’t be because American Jews fear Russian anti-Semitism. Lets get real here.

    It will be because Putin wants expensive oil to meet his $120 a barrel budget break even point and the US and Saudis want cheaper oil.

    If anything, the weirdness around Israel’s view and actions on the Iranian nuke have to do with the nascent lining up in the ME over (what else, OIL! and how much it will cost on the world market). The Iranians have an even higher break even budget price — about $140 a barrel according to the FT which has generally good coverage of the world oil market.

    The Saudis, with American help, have pushed oil prices low by not cutting production as demand softens globally. This is to punish the Iranians and Russians. Who are backing the Shia forces in Iraq and Assad. Meanwhile the Qataris with no real disagreement by the Saudis are funding ISIS. Israel being a small country, with limited resources, and looking at the worst closeted Muslim (and gay Black man) in the White House figures American Protection is as dead as the Holy Roman Empire.

    I don’t think Israeli leadership is overcome suddenly for a love of Persian rugs and pistachios. But they figure an Iran/Russia/Assad team up against Turkey/Qatar-Saudis/ISIS is like watching Hydra and AIM fight Loki and Ultron. It seems a case of include me out.

    Israel has its own interests, directly opposed to Russias, namely being Europe’s Number One Natural Gas supplier. With its truly massive offshore fields, promised it seems at a budget price also to Egypt to keep the Generals there happy (cheap gas = manufacturing with low energy costs and soaking up Egyptian unemployment, some of it, with rake-offs for the generals).

    Vlad is not a guy to just sit around and bleed red ink, and not deliver either populist promises while Ultranationalists point out that sensible, respectable Russians in Moscow and St. Petersburg can’t walk the street without the call to prayer from muezzins and other forms of vibrancy assaulting their senses (and persons come to think of it). Nor even more dangerous, his massive patronage in the FSB, Military, and other armed governmental services run the risk of not being paid. On time in money that buys something. He knows how the Gorby story turned out.

    So War it will be. Aimed at: 1. cutting Saudi oil production; 2. cutting Saudi oil production; 3. cutting Saudi oil production. Putin won’t just sit by and watch the Saudis run the same game on him as Gorby. Of course the Saudis wouldn’t pull that if Obama had not convinced them of his (and America’s) weakness, vacillation, untrustworthiness, lack of spine, backbone, and will. About 30,000 US troops in Iraq would have smacked down a nascent ISIS, intimidated the Iranians, kept the Saudis from adventuring through the Qataris, and reminded people of the power of the US even though its people don’t like much War (when Republicans are in charge — when Dems are in charge the Press cheerleads).

    But yeah, war is coming. Its all about oil. About Putin’s ability to pay people he needs to stay in power. What, you thought it was ANYTHING else? And it will be Putin who starts it, against the Saudis.

    IF we hadn’t had six plus years of Obama weakness, appeasement, anti-Americanism, and stupidity, it would have been worth our while to make Putin a long-term price offer on Russian oil in exchange for good behavior. But too late now, Putin KNOWS Obama is weak and stupid. Syrian red lines anyone?

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    • Replies: @Retired
    "IF we hadn’t had six plus years of Obama weakness, appeasement, anti-Americanism, and stupidity..." Combine that with Bush's naivete and being distracted by Iraq and we have neglected our relations with Russa for decades. The last president who understood and dealt with Russia properly was Reagan.

    Who cares about rich Jews in Russia? Sailer is right, we need to deal with Putin to head off a war in Europe. To hell with the middle east.
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  13. Plu says:

    “The fact that the ratio of Russian Jews to gentiles among American billionaires is the inverse of mother Russia, is highly indicative of strong discrimination by the Putin regime.”
    This analysis is applicable to pretty much every country in the world with a Jewish population. Must be the New-new Anti-Semitism.

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  14. Twinkie says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I say that because it's a classic Dog That Didn't Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn't we?

    I say that because it’s a classic Dog That Didn’t Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn’t we?

    Unless the elite Jews who have it good are discouraging such complaints to keep the party going.

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  15. Clyde says:

    One of the most destabilizing and least true myths at present is the widespread belief in the U.S. that the Putin regime in Russia is anti-Semitic.

    Putin is very anti-Semitic when you include transfer of nuclear technology to Iran. Iran would be at 20% of where it is at today on nukes development if not for Russian assistance. Which was done to make billions for Putin cronies. It is minimally ideological. Also include Russian arms sales to Iran. Its all about the zillions in Rubles to be made by Putin cronies

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    • Replies: @Anon
    "Putin is very anti-Semitic when you include transfer of nuclear technology to Iran."

    More like Jews are very anti-Persian when they support Israel's 300 illegal nukes but throws fits about Iran that only wants civilian-use nuclear energy.
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  16. Rifleman says:

    By all objective evidence, Putin would be considered pro-Semitic, as is often pointed out by Israel’s foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman. But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes.

    Victoria Nuland and the Kagans are not going to listen to your pro-pogrom, anti-semitic propaganda!!!

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    • Replies: @Chiron
    Why didn't Obama purge the neocon Jews from foreign policy? Is the American Deep State real?
    , @Anon
    "Victoria Nuland and the Kagans are not going to listen to your pro-pogrom, anti-semitic propaganda!!!"

    In the past, 'antisemitism' meant denying Jews equality.

    Today, it means denying Jews supremacy.

    "Russians don't let us rule Russia like we rule the US. It is so anti-Jewish!"

    There is also 'antisemitism-by-proxy'. If a nation is nice to Jews but opposed to something Jews like, then it is 'antisemitic-by-proxy'. If Russia won't allow 'pride parades', it is 'anti-Jewish-by-opposing-an-agenda-favored-by-Jews'.

    A demented world.
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  17. Chiron says:
    @Rifleman

    By all objective evidence, Putin would be considered pro-Semitic, as is often pointed out by Israel’s foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman. But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes.
     
    Victoria Nuland and the Kagans are not going to listen to your pro-pogrom, anti-semitic propaganda!!!

    Why didn’t Obama purge the neocon Jews from foreign policy? Is the American Deep State real?

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  18. One difference is that in Russia Jews face competition by other diaspora ethnic groups with their very old networks all over the former USSR/Russian empire. In America eg. Armenians tend to be fresh immigrants so you have Kardashians instead of oil magnates.

    Tatars in particular are fascinating. Islam tends to make minorities resistant to assimilation but it also tends to make minorities firmly resistant to success. But somehow Tatars have turned into one of those minorities that integrate well while still maintaining a distinct identity.

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  19. @Steve Sailer
    I say that because it's a classic Dog That Didn't Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn't we?

    Ordinary Jews mostly left Russia as soon as they could in the 1990s. The Jews that are left are either doing very well, doing very badly or are very assimilated. It is not so much a case of Russian anti-semitism, as it is simply that it is very easy for Jews to leave Russia (or Ukraine) and find a support network in Israel, the US or, increasingly, Germany. Most people of any ethnic group who have the opportunity to leave the former Soviet Union for a decent life in the West take advantage of that opportunity.

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    • Replies: @KA
    " it was the memory of persecution " , it doesn't have to be a personal experience of persecution for the Jewish to be eligible for relocation to USA and receive housing,health care,and financial support . So roared the quiet Congressman from NY ( Jewish faith ) and the Russian Jews came to US numbering 400000 out of total 500000 . He singlehandedly altered the established criteria . Even the UN refugee resettlement body or agency to identify religious refugee did not believe that Jews were persecuted in Russia to qualify for the refugee status .
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  20. Studley says:

    …”which makes as much sense as calling David Cameron Scottish.”

    Cameron is Scottish, though. Goes hunting on the Isle of Jura, (part-owned by father-in-law) injured his back so can’t do it anymore except with a camera!

    Dude is like Harold Macmillan. Former PM of UK, Eton/Oxbridge. But still Scottish.

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  21. @Doug
    Wouldn't the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number. Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn't represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent. Maybe the discrimination free level in Russia is 1/3 or 1/2. Russian Jews may suffer from discrimination in business, but at the end of the day may be the only sober and competent people around.

    A fair metric is to look at Russian Jews and Russian gentiles in the US. The US has virtually no Jewish vs. Slavic discrimination compared to Eastern Europe, so its a good benchmark. As far as I'm aware nearly 80% or more of Russian-American billionaires in the US are Jewish. The fact that the ratio of Russian Jews to gentiles among American billionaires is the inverse of mother Russia, is highly indicative of strong discrimination by the Putin regime.

    (Yes proportionally more Russians in America are Jewish, but I'd assume that among the population that can rise to billionaire level, virtually any could get a visa to the US. The great unwashed masses of Siberian (unanimously gentile) farmers are irrelevant to the analysis. None of them have any chance of becoming a billionaire under any regime.)

    But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes

    Not really. The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates. Any excuse will do really – anti-Semitism, homophobia, whatever. Those are just pretexts. The war fever will continue as long as the US percieves Russia to be a fundamentally weak state, riven by ethnic tension, far too dependent on oil revenue, and whose elites will be as loyal to Putin if things go badly as the Ukrainian oligarchs were loyal to Yanukovich. If you are a “realist”, the time to take Russia down is now, while we can still use Saudi cheap oil to destroy the Russian economy. What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    Undermining Russia actually makes a lot of sense geopolitically for the US, if you are a neocon interested in US global power projection as the final arbiter of success.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Russia seems fundamentally pretty weak.
    , @KA
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/06/the-lautenberg-amendment/
    , @Matra
    What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    I think you are correct. The pro-Putin Russian bloggers, tweeters, and commentators who were ecstatic about the recent gas agreement with China seem to think there will be a multipolar world with Russia one of the poles and perhaps a German-led Europe separated from the US. It is more likely that Russia's abrupt turn towards China means Russia will play the same role to China in a new bipolar world that Europe, Australia, Japan, and Canada play to the US.

    On the list of Russia's super rich some of the Ukrainians and Russians are probably of Jewish backgrounds too.

    , @Art Deco
    The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates.

    I tend to doubt the 'foreign policy establishment' are as foolish as certain combox blowhards.

    Sections of Russia which have a plurality of non-Russians are of modest dimensions (and small for an aspirant sovereign entity) and commonly surrounded by ethnic Russians. The most thoroughly foreign would be Chechenya (pop. 1.3 million) and Tuva (pop. 300,000). The only examples of a country speaking a common language decomposing into component states in the post-Westphalian era would be the dissolution of the United Provinces of Central America, the American Civil War, the Irish secession from Britain in 1922, the dissolution of Lebanon in 1975, and the dissolution of Somalia in 1991. Central America was not a durable and established entity, there isn't much of an analogue in Russia to the rivalry between Catholic Ireland and England, inter-regional variation in political preferences and social systems is nowhere near as severe in contemporary Russia as it was in the United States in 1860, Russia is not a crazy-quilt of confessionally delineated fiefdoms, and Russia is not riven with lineage groups. Given that Russia held together while the Soviet Union dissolved into its component parts and given that Chechenyan secession was successfully suppressed, I do not think there are many opportunities in this regard.

    As for the economic and social condition of the country, the per capita income of Russia has doubled in the last 15 years, a partial revival in fertility has at least brought the country to the European average in that time, and the dependency of the country on natural resource rents and revenues has been declining monotonically for a half-generation.

    If that was ever anyone's aim, the ship has sailed.
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  22. KA says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I say that because it's a classic Dog That Didn't Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn't we?

    That’s why Israelis with Russian origin are returning to Russia . They find themselves discriminated by fanatic more exclusive Israeli religious body. Obviously this discrimination must have affected their purse or monetary futures . That could be the only reason for them to depart the promised land .

    Read More
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  23. KA says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Ordinary Jews mostly left Russia as soon as they could in the 1990s. The Jews that are left are either doing very well, doing very badly or are very assimilated. It is not so much a case of Russian anti-semitism, as it is simply that it is very easy for Jews to leave Russia (or Ukraine) and find a support network in Israel, the US or, increasingly, Germany. Most people of any ethnic group who have the opportunity to leave the former Soviet Union for a decent life in the West take advantage of that opportunity.

    ” it was the memory of persecution ” , it doesn’t have to be a personal experience of persecution for the Jewish to be eligible for relocation to USA and receive housing,health care,and financial support . So roared the quiet Congressman from NY ( Jewish faith ) and the Russian Jews came to US numbering 400000 out of total 500000 . He singlehandedly altered the established criteria . Even the UN refugee resettlement body or agency to identify religious refugee did not believe that Jews were persecuted in Russia to qualify for the refugee status .

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  24. Here’s Putin laughing about his business friends with Ukrainian and Jewish names getting on the list of people sanctioned by the West because of the appearance in Crimea of “polite armed men in green”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-ikb6roqMg

    Putin laughs about them having typical “moskal” names.

    Here’s a crowd of Ukrainian nationalist kids in the far west of the country using this same word, “moskal”. “Moskals should be hung” etc:

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  25. @Peter Akuleyev

    But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes
     
    Not really. The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates. Any excuse will do really - anti-Semitism, homophobia, whatever. Those are just pretexts. The war fever will continue as long as the US percieves Russia to be a fundamentally weak state, riven by ethnic tension, far too dependent on oil revenue, and whose elites will be as loyal to Putin if things go badly as the Ukrainian oligarchs were loyal to Yanukovich. If you are a "realist", the time to take Russia down is now, while we can still use Saudi cheap oil to destroy the Russian economy. What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    Undermining Russia actually makes a lot of sense geopolitically for the US, if you are a neocon interested in US global power projection as the final arbiter of success.

    Russia seems fundamentally pretty weak.

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  26. Hunsdon says:

    I am, of course, a Slavophile, and more particularly a Russophile, so perhaps any of my comments should be considered in that light.

    However, looking over the history of recent (late 20th century on) failed states, the proposition that we should be pushing Russia to destabilize seems like one of those ideas you have to be really smart to think is a good idea. Hey, let’s push Russia into a corner! Let’s destroy their economy! Let’s fracture their standing as a nation state!

    Hey, let’s ignore all those ICBMs.

    We’re currently wrapped around our axles trying to deal with the regional blowback from turning Libya and Syria and Iraq into failed states . . . and we think pushing Russia into that category is a good idea?

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    • Replies: @rod1963
    These people(Neocons, McCain, Grahm, Kerry) promoting war are seriously stupid if not insane.

    We lost the last two wars we were in - Afghanistan and Iraq, and this was against people living in mud huts. Heck our entire Army couldn't control Anbar province in Iraq, we had to bribe the Iraqis not to attack us(so called Anbar awakening).

    ISIS is laughing it's ass off at us.

    Turkey is busy aiding and abetting ISIS and rapidly devolving into a another salafist state.

    Libya - turned out to be disaster. After murdering Gaddafi, we thought we could bribe a bunch of Jihdis to run the place for us while we steal their oil, instead they kicked the CIA goon squads out in a matter of hours and now the place is fragmented along tribal lines.

    So that's how the best and brightest of America roll. Amazing.

    I am firmly convinced the people at the Pentagon and the White House are total idiots and dangerous to the world as well given their failed military track record.
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  27. Jack D says:

    Stalin didn’t start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it – arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.

    When you are a dictator with absolute power, no one is safe. Everyone in Russia today, Jewish oligarchs included, is only a stroke of Putin’s pen away from having all their assets confiscated or worse. Jews by their nature are not only intelligent but highly verbal (this makes them different from the almost equally intelligent but quieter Asians) – these are just the kind of people who sooner or later will be a thorn in the side of a dictator. Ask Khodorkovsky.

    There is a stereotype of Russians as alcoholic anti-Semites but not every Russian fits that stereotype. Putin is not a drinker either. Putin fits another stereotype – that of a highly disciplined KGB agent, dedicated to his cause (the triumph of Soviet power). Such a person is not going to permit personal weaknesses – a fondness for alcohol, ethnic favoritism, etc. to get in his way. Putin drank the Soviet Kool-aid as a child and part of that (on paper, if not in reality) was that the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic enterprise, much like the US. Russian was its language (just as English is America’s) but you didn’t have to BE ethnic Russian to be dedicated to the Soviet cause, just as you don’t have to be of English heritage to be a patriotic American .

    I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven’t really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. Show me one source that has said that? (That Putin is anti-Israel because he is pro-Iran is true and doesn’t count.) That still leaves ample other reasons not to like him.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KA
    How is Putin pro -Iran?
    How is he anti Israel?
    , @Chubby Ape
    Putin drank the Soviet Kool-aid as a child and part of that (on paper, if not in reality) was that the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic enterprise, much like the US. Russian was its language (just as English is America’s) but you didn’t have to BE ethnic Russian to be dedicated to the Soviet cause, just as you don’t have to be of English heritage to be a patriotic American .

    No, it's not about Soviet ideology as much as it's about the reality of Russia before, during and after the Soviet era. Tsarist Russia was also a multi-national, multi-ethnic and multi-faith entity and everyone understood it to be so. The Tsar even had special versions of the medals he awarded to his Muslim subjects that were not in the form of the Christian cross because that would be unacceptable to them. Yeah the politically correct, cultural Marxist Tsar did that.

    My point being that Putin, the Soviet leaders and the Tsars all knew Russia was a complicated, multi-ethnic place and governed accordingly. Now that we've gone and turned our countries in the West into similarly complicated states we should have a second look at how the Russians did it.
    , @Anon
    "Stalin didn’t start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it – arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc."

    Stalin was a paranoid mass-killer, but he was right to be paranoid about Jewish dual loyalty. (Look at US today. Would any honest observer deny that Jews had been working in their tribal interest?) After WWII, the cold war was on. Stalin backed the creation of Israel, but Israel threw its lot with the West. Stalin felt betrayed and felt that Soviet Jews still retained Jewish consciousness and loyalties at odds with Soviet interests. He was right. His mass purges and killings weren't justified, but he was right to fear disparate nationalisms, especially as the USSR was so diverse.
    Given all the dirty tricks pulled by globalist Jews against Russia since the end of the Cold War, I think it's fair to say it's not irrational to be suspicious of Jewish agendas.

    "I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven’t really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. "

    I think Sailer is doing a bit of subconscious-reading here.
    Of course, Jews don't have much of a case against Putin for being anti-Jewish. But a lot of Jewish gripe about Putin has to do with Putin's suppression of Jewish takeover of Russia. For Jews, it's not enough that Jews are very successful in Russia. They want Jews to rule Russia. When Khodorovsky was sent to jail, many Jewish alarm bells went off. Some Jews did raise the specter of 'antisemitism' but others defended Khodorovsky in the name of 'free markets' or 'rule of law'. But would they have really cared if Khodo were a Tatar billionaire?

    Also, even though Putin isn't anti-Jewish, the things he supports---revived national pride, Christian culture, higher birthrates among White Russians---and things he opposes---homo agenda especially---are troubling to Jews because Putin's policies are opposite to those pushed by Jews in the West.

    Jews see Putin as being two-faced. He is pro-Jewish because he knows Jews control the world, and Russia needs to do business with the world. But he also supports the very things that Jews around the world loathe, especially white nationalism, Christian tradition, and anti-homo-agenda. So, he passes himself as a philosemite while supporting the very things that Jews around the world loathe most.

    There is blatant Jewishness and shadow-Jewishness. Blatant Jewishness is something like Zionism or Jewish Pride.
    Shadow-Jewishness involve matters that are not Jewish per se but perceived by Jews as 'good for Jews'. The homo agenda that favors elite minority rule is one such shadow-Jewishness.

    So, Jews see Putin as a kind of anti-shadow-semite because he has a bad record on shadow-Jewish matters.
    , @Anonymous
    Jack,

    How about when the dictator is the leader of a theocracy? I assume that you also meant that no one is safe in a dictatorial theocracy. I'd beg to differ. I'd imagine that the Jews in Israel are fairly safe under the potent legal power of the Orthodoxy. Via that illustration, we can notice that the average Russian is plenty safe under a dictatorial government of same ethnicity. The danger comes when a country is ruled by an establishment that has interests inimical to the majority. That's obvious to everyone here except, perhaps, a Jewish person attempting to spin the logic that works against him into half-truths that work for him. The unfortunate thing is that such attempts are often, by their nature, vulnerable to the tedious task of debunking them. How forever tedious it is to debate a lying Jewish person.

    Your Jewish/Asian IQ fetish is also a moot point, and tired rhetoric. Jews haven't been able to run a first world country on their own in the history of the world, to include modern Israel, and the Asians aren't any better save the Japanese. Holding the Jews and Asians up to be somehow superior doesn't jive with observable reality. Please masturbate to your paper Jewish/Asian IQ fetish over a dimly lit table in your own country. That is, of course, unless you can't live without us.
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  28. KA says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes
     
    Not really. The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates. Any excuse will do really - anti-Semitism, homophobia, whatever. Those are just pretexts. The war fever will continue as long as the US percieves Russia to be a fundamentally weak state, riven by ethnic tension, far too dependent on oil revenue, and whose elites will be as loyal to Putin if things go badly as the Ukrainian oligarchs were loyal to Yanukovich. If you are a "realist", the time to take Russia down is now, while we can still use Saudi cheap oil to destroy the Russian economy. What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    Undermining Russia actually makes a lot of sense geopolitically for the US, if you are a neocon interested in US global power projection as the final arbiter of success.

    Read More
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  29. KA says:
    @Jack D
    Stalin didn't start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it - arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.

    When you are a dictator with absolute power, no one is safe. Everyone in Russia today, Jewish oligarchs included, is only a stroke of Putin's pen away from having all their assets confiscated or worse. Jews by their nature are not only intelligent but highly verbal (this makes them different from the almost equally intelligent but quieter Asians) - these are just the kind of people who sooner or later will be a thorn in the side of a dictator. Ask Khodorkovsky.

    There is a stereotype of Russians as alcoholic anti-Semites but not every Russian fits that stereotype. Putin is not a drinker either. Putin fits another stereotype - that of a highly disciplined KGB agent, dedicated to his cause (the triumph of Soviet power). Such a person is not going to permit personal weaknesses - a fondness for alcohol, ethnic favoritism, etc. to get in his way. Putin drank the Soviet Kool-aid as a child and part of that (on paper, if not in reality) was that the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic enterprise, much like the US. Russian was its language (just as English is America's) but you didn't have to BE ethnic Russian to be dedicated to the Soviet cause, just as you don't have to be of English heritage to be a patriotic American .

    I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven't really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. Show me one source that has said that? (That Putin is anti-Israel because he is pro-Iran is true and doesn't count.) That still leaves ample other reasons not to like him.

    How is Putin pro -Iran?
    How is he anti Israel?

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts. It is well known that Russia is a key backer of Iran, especially in its nuclear program.

    Read this and then repeat your statement with a straight face:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran
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  30. Wally says: • Website

    Who runs the Federal Reserve?
    Who runs Wall Street?
    Who owns the US Congress
    Who owns the White House?
    Who runs the media / entertainment?
    Who dominates ‘academia’?
    Why is AIPAC the most powerful, dominant lobby, which regularly writes the text of Congressional bills and resolutions.
    Who is it that wants to censor free speech via the “hate speech” canard.
    Who is it the demands the US shed the blood of US troops for their interests?
    Who are the biggest racists on the planet?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    I wish it were Dutchmen for the first six. Coincidentally, it isn't.
    , @Hard Line Realist
    TNELTDNSINEII (The Non Existent Lobby That Dare Not Speak Its Name Except In Israel)

    Hmmm, too long and not catchy enough. OK, fall back to the old standby!
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  31. @Jack D
    Stalin didn't start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it - arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.

    When you are a dictator with absolute power, no one is safe. Everyone in Russia today, Jewish oligarchs included, is only a stroke of Putin's pen away from having all their assets confiscated or worse. Jews by their nature are not only intelligent but highly verbal (this makes them different from the almost equally intelligent but quieter Asians) - these are just the kind of people who sooner or later will be a thorn in the side of a dictator. Ask Khodorkovsky.

    There is a stereotype of Russians as alcoholic anti-Semites but not every Russian fits that stereotype. Putin is not a drinker either. Putin fits another stereotype - that of a highly disciplined KGB agent, dedicated to his cause (the triumph of Soviet power). Such a person is not going to permit personal weaknesses - a fondness for alcohol, ethnic favoritism, etc. to get in his way. Putin drank the Soviet Kool-aid as a child and part of that (on paper, if not in reality) was that the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic enterprise, much like the US. Russian was its language (just as English is America's) but you didn't have to BE ethnic Russian to be dedicated to the Soviet cause, just as you don't have to be of English heritage to be a patriotic American .

    I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven't really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. Show me one source that has said that? (That Putin is anti-Israel because he is pro-Iran is true and doesn't count.) That still leaves ample other reasons not to like him.

    Putin drank the Soviet Kool-aid as a child and part of that (on paper, if not in reality) was that the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic enterprise, much like the US. Russian was its language (just as English is America’s) but you didn’t have to BE ethnic Russian to be dedicated to the Soviet cause, just as you don’t have to be of English heritage to be a patriotic American .

    No, it’s not about Soviet ideology as much as it’s about the reality of Russia before, during and after the Soviet era. Tsarist Russia was also a multi-national, multi-ethnic and multi-faith entity and everyone understood it to be so. The Tsar even had special versions of the medals he awarded to his Muslim subjects that were not in the form of the Christian cross because that would be unacceptable to them. Yeah the politically correct, cultural Marxist Tsar did that.

    My point being that Putin, the Soviet leaders and the Tsars all knew Russia was a complicated, multi-ethnic place and governed accordingly. Now that we’ve gone and turned our countries in the West into similarly complicated states we should have a second look at how the Russians did it.

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  32. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    That’s an important fact that shouldn’t be hushed up: knowing the truth can help cool off the war fever.

    Not when there are people who are bound and determined to go to war.

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  33. SFG says:

    Maybe Putin doesn’t care one way or the other about Jews and is just steering the ship of state as best he can to expand Russia’s sphere of influence?

    That puts him in conflict with the USA, but…

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  34. Sean says:

    A major cause of tension in the run up to WW1 was the Kaiser’s friendship with Jewish shipping tycoon Albert Ballin. Under his influence, the Kaiser advocated water borne projection of German influence. which was acompanied by a naval program that terrified the British. The US wasn’t very happy when German warships bombarded Venezuelan forts at Puerto Cabello either.

    The only Jewish billionaires that Putin took action against was Mikhail Khodorkovsky and freinds. He got a few years for tax evasion, but Khodorkovsky been running a murder incorporated operation: a rival who took legal action against had his driver killed in a car bombing, former employees who knew too much disappeared, and most notoriosly a mayor who camped outside Yukos headquarters publically demanding Khodorkovsky pay back taxes was murdered a within a month.

    Puitin actually criticised the goverment of Ukraine as being backed by anti semites. That’s funny considering who the current leader of Ukraine is.

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  35. @Anonymous
    Azeri millionaires work together to make more azeri millionaires. Same with most tribes in this world.

    Jewish millionaires however are most often millionaires DESPITE all of the other Jewish millionaires out there.

    I won't waste any more second arguing this point that has zero chance of convincing anyone.

    For an IQ and Creativity obsessed bunch, all logic is tossed aside when it comes to the statistics of Jewish success.

    Done talking to your collective gasses.

    “all logic is tossed aside when it comes to the statistics of Jewish success.

    Done talking to your collective gasses.”

    You and your tasteful name will be missed.

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  36. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Steve Sailer said:

    Russia seems fundamentally pretty weak.

    Agreed, apart from the ability to end the U.S. and Europe before lunch, pretty weak indeed.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Yeah, well, I suppose we shouldn't forget those ICBMs when planning destabilization of Russia.
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  37. Realist says:

    “Putin’s Billionaires”
    What the hell does that mean? Do you mean Russian billionaires?
    Are the billionaires in the U. S. Obama’s billionaires?

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    • Replies: @pumpkinperson
    What the hell does that mean? Do you mean Russian billionaires?
    Are the billionaires in the U. S. Obama’s billionaires?


    According to a newspaper headline in the movie Iron Lady millionaires created during Thatcher's booming economy were called "Maggie's millionaires"
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  38. Realist says:
    @Anonymous
    Jews were very prominent int he early rape of Russia following the collapse of communism and the USSR. Having a bumbling drunken fool as a leader didn't help the Russian cause either. Jews took advantage of the situation to the detriment of ordinary Russians.

    Jews were prominent in creating Russian communism also

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  39. iSteveFan says:

    Israel has its own interests, directly opposed to Russias, namely being Europe’s Number One Natural Gas supplier.

    I am sure most people on this blog will agree that it is in Europe’s best interest to be dependent upon the Jews.

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  40. 5371 says:

    Anyone who thinks Russia is “fundamentally weak” (fundamentally – there’s a weasel word!) is welcome to try and prove it. How’s that going so far?

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    Anyone who thinks Russia is “fundamentally weak” (fundamentally – there’s a weasel word!) is welcome to try and prove it. How’s that going so far?
     
    Russia is self-evidently weak.
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  41. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    For a people who never bitch about white privilege, it’s funny how they’ re are so sensitive about their own wealth.

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  42. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    Jews were very prominent int he early rape of Russia following the collapse of communism and the USSR. Having a bumbling drunken fool as a leader didn't help the Russian cause either. Jews took advantage of the situation to the detriment of ordinary Russians.

    “Jews were very prominent int he early rape of Russia following the collapse of communism and the USSR. Having a bumbling drunken fool as a leader didn’t help the Russian cause either. Jews took advantage of the situation to the detriment of ordinary Russians.”

    Half true.

    Yes, Russians had a drunken leader, but the bigger problem was most of them were as drunk if not drunker than Yeltsin.
    A lot of Russians still have a peasant mentality.

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  43. Who are the biggest racists on the planet?

    Probably the North Koreans, if we are being perfectly honest. The more succesful Jewish subgroups have no real problem with intermarrying as long as it brings good genes into the tribe.

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    • Replies: @John
    Demonstrably untrue. I'd be interested in your list of significant subgroups that intermarry without issue.
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  44. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Doug
    Wouldn't the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number. Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn't represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent. Maybe the discrimination free level in Russia is 1/3 or 1/2. Russian Jews may suffer from discrimination in business, but at the end of the day may be the only sober and competent people around.

    A fair metric is to look at Russian Jews and Russian gentiles in the US. The US has virtually no Jewish vs. Slavic discrimination compared to Eastern Europe, so its a good benchmark. As far as I'm aware nearly 80% or more of Russian-American billionaires in the US are Jewish. The fact that the ratio of Russian Jews to gentiles among American billionaires is the inverse of mother Russia, is highly indicative of strong discrimination by the Putin regime.

    (Yes proportionally more Russians in America are Jewish, but I'd assume that among the population that can rise to billionaire level, virtually any could get a visa to the US. The great unwashed masses of Siberian (unanimously gentile) farmers are irrelevant to the analysis. None of them have any chance of becoming a billionaire under any regime.)

    “Wouldn’t the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number.”

    A legit question. But considering the nature of the business climate after the fall of the USSR, I think a lot of corruption was involved among both Jews and Russians.

    Also, Russian Jews had one great advantage since they were coached, funded, and aided by super-Jews in EU and US. That is invaluable advice.

    In contrast, Russians had to build everything on their own.

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  45. @Doug
    Wouldn't the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number. Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn't represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent. Maybe the discrimination free level in Russia is 1/3 or 1/2. Russian Jews may suffer from discrimination in business, but at the end of the day may be the only sober and competent people around.

    A fair metric is to look at Russian Jews and Russian gentiles in the US. The US has virtually no Jewish vs. Slavic discrimination compared to Eastern Europe, so its a good benchmark. As far as I'm aware nearly 80% or more of Russian-American billionaires in the US are Jewish. The fact that the ratio of Russian Jews to gentiles among American billionaires is the inverse of mother Russia, is highly indicative of strong discrimination by the Putin regime.

    (Yes proportionally more Russians in America are Jewish, but I'd assume that among the population that can rise to billionaire level, virtually any could get a visa to the US. The great unwashed masses of Siberian (unanimously gentile) farmers are irrelevant to the analysis. None of them have any chance of becoming a billionaire under any regime.)

    Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn’t represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent.

    Doug, currently the only black billionaire in all of North America is Oprah, who just became the first multibillionaire black in North American history:

    http://pumpkinperson.com/2014/10/21/big-brained-oprah-becomes-first-multibillionaire-black-in-north-american-history/

    To make that much money you often need some kind of obvious biological advantage. Jewish people have certain genes that may enhance IQ. Oprah is arguably the biggest brained member of both her race and her gender:

    http://brainsize.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-brain-size-of-the-worlds-most-successful-woman/

    That doesn’t mean other factors don’t also play a role.

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  46. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Clyde

    One of the most destabilizing and least true myths at present is the widespread belief in the U.S. that the Putin regime in Russia is anti-Semitic.
     
    Putin is very anti-Semitic when you include transfer of nuclear technology to Iran. Iran would be at 20% of where it is at today on nukes development if not for Russian assistance. Which was done to make billions for Putin cronies. It is minimally ideological. Also include Russian arms sales to Iran. Its all about the zillions in Rubles to be made by Putin cronies

    “Putin is very anti-Semitic when you include transfer of nuclear technology to Iran.”

    More like Jews are very anti-Persian when they support Israel’s 300 illegal nukes but throws fits about Iran that only wants civilian-use nuclear energy.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    In what sense are Israel's nukes "illegal"? Can you point to a particular treaty or UN Resolution? If they are "illegal" why are there no UN sanctions on Israel?

    PS - how do you know it's 300 - have you counted them?

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity? After all, it's not like they have oil or anything that could be used to generate electricity without nuclear power. How stupid do you think we are?

    I can't imagine why Israel would be anti-Iran. It couldn't be because their leaders keep threatening to destroy Israel and sponsor Hezbollah and Hamas.
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  47. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Rifleman

    By all objective evidence, Putin would be considered pro-Semitic, as is often pointed out by Israel’s foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman. But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes.
     
    Victoria Nuland and the Kagans are not going to listen to your pro-pogrom, anti-semitic propaganda!!!

    “Victoria Nuland and the Kagans are not going to listen to your pro-pogrom, anti-semitic propaganda!!!”

    In the past, ‘antisemitism’ meant denying Jews equality.

    Today, it means denying Jews supremacy.

    “Russians don’t let us rule Russia like we rule the US. It is so anti-Jewish!”

    There is also ‘antisemitism-by-proxy’. If a nation is nice to Jews but opposed to something Jews like, then it is ‘antisemitic-by-proxy’. If Russia won’t allow ‘pride parades’, it is ‘anti-Jewish-by-opposing-an-agenda-favored-by-Jews’.

    A demented world.

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  48. Wally says:

    One must ask why it is that Jews are disliked and not trusted worldwide. It’s not ‘anti’ anything, it’s their obnoxious behaviour which creates ill will. IOW, they bring it on themselves and seem to enjoy it for some bizarre reason. No better example than apartheid Israel.

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  49. Wally says:

    One must honestly ask why Jews are disliked, not trusted worldwide. It’s not ‘anti’ anything. It’s their obnoxious hateful behavior which creates resentment, a normal reaction. IOW, they bring it on themselves and even seem to like it, truly bizarre.
    Apartheid Israel, aka: “that shitty little country” is a perfect example.

    antisemitic: any thought or person that a Jew doesn’t like

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  50. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Stalin didn't start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it - arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.

    When you are a dictator with absolute power, no one is safe. Everyone in Russia today, Jewish oligarchs included, is only a stroke of Putin's pen away from having all their assets confiscated or worse. Jews by their nature are not only intelligent but highly verbal (this makes them different from the almost equally intelligent but quieter Asians) - these are just the kind of people who sooner or later will be a thorn in the side of a dictator. Ask Khodorkovsky.

    There is a stereotype of Russians as alcoholic anti-Semites but not every Russian fits that stereotype. Putin is not a drinker either. Putin fits another stereotype - that of a highly disciplined KGB agent, dedicated to his cause (the triumph of Soviet power). Such a person is not going to permit personal weaknesses - a fondness for alcohol, ethnic favoritism, etc. to get in his way. Putin drank the Soviet Kool-aid as a child and part of that (on paper, if not in reality) was that the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic enterprise, much like the US. Russian was its language (just as English is America's) but you didn't have to BE ethnic Russian to be dedicated to the Soviet cause, just as you don't have to be of English heritage to be a patriotic American .

    I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven't really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. Show me one source that has said that? (That Putin is anti-Israel because he is pro-Iran is true and doesn't count.) That still leaves ample other reasons not to like him.

    “Stalin didn’t start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it – arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.”

    Stalin was a paranoid mass-killer, but he was right to be paranoid about Jewish dual loyalty. (Look at US today. Would any honest observer deny that Jews had been working in their tribal interest?) After WWII, the cold war was on. Stalin backed the creation of Israel, but Israel threw its lot with the West. Stalin felt betrayed and felt that Soviet Jews still retained Jewish consciousness and loyalties at odds with Soviet interests. He was right. His mass purges and killings weren’t justified, but he was right to fear disparate nationalisms, especially as the USSR was so diverse.
    Given all the dirty tricks pulled by globalist Jews against Russia since the end of the Cold War, I think it’s fair to say it’s not irrational to be suspicious of Jewish agendas.

    “I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven’t really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. ”

    I think Sailer is doing a bit of subconscious-reading here.
    Of course, Jews don’t have much of a case against Putin for being anti-Jewish. But a lot of Jewish gripe about Putin has to do with Putin’s suppression of Jewish takeover of Russia. For Jews, it’s not enough that Jews are very successful in Russia. They want Jews to rule Russia. When Khodorovsky was sent to jail, many Jewish alarm bells went off. Some Jews did raise the specter of ‘antisemitism’ but others defended Khodorovsky in the name of ‘free markets’ or ‘rule of law’. But would they have really cared if Khodo were a Tatar billionaire?

    Also, even though Putin isn’t anti-Jewish, the things he supports—revived national pride, Christian culture, higher birthrates among White Russians—and things he opposes—homo agenda especially—are troubling to Jews because Putin’s policies are opposite to those pushed by Jews in the West.

    Jews see Putin as being two-faced. He is pro-Jewish because he knows Jews control the world, and Russia needs to do business with the world. But he also supports the very things that Jews around the world loathe, especially white nationalism, Christian tradition, and anti-homo-agenda. So, he passes himself as a philosemite while supporting the very things that Jews around the world loathe most.

    There is blatant Jewishness and shadow-Jewishness. Blatant Jewishness is something like Zionism or Jewish Pride.
    Shadow-Jewishness involve matters that are not Jewish per se but perceived by Jews as ‘good for Jews’. The homo agenda that favors elite minority rule is one such shadow-Jewishness.

    So, Jews see Putin as a kind of anti-shadow-semite because he has a bad record on shadow-Jewish matters.

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    Could be. I never had much hatred for Putin beyond apprehension about what a strong Russia means for the USA, maybe because I don't really follow the shadow agenda. But I'm half-breed and not too loyal to the tribe--I find it equally bizarre to be defending Israel's attacks on the Palestinians and to be obsessed with destroying it because you're mad at Gloria Steinem. (I am also mad at Gloria Steinem, BTW.)

    It's just a country with a powerful lobby, you deal with as best you can. Personally I think they've gone too far.
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  51. Harry says:

    This information shows which groups would probably profit most from another crisis of government in Russia. If we assume that western “russophobe” elites are not really aiming at war, but really just at internal instability within Russia, their behavior would therefore seem quite rational (from their perspective).

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  52. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Doug
    Wouldn't the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number. Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn't represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent. Maybe the discrimination free level in Russia is 1/3 or 1/2. Russian Jews may suffer from discrimination in business, but at the end of the day may be the only sober and competent people around.

    A fair metric is to look at Russian Jews and Russian gentiles in the US. The US has virtually no Jewish vs. Slavic discrimination compared to Eastern Europe, so its a good benchmark. As far as I'm aware nearly 80% or more of Russian-American billionaires in the US are Jewish. The fact that the ratio of Russian Jews to gentiles among American billionaires is the inverse of mother Russia, is highly indicative of strong discrimination by the Putin regime.

    (Yes proportionally more Russians in America are Jewish, but I'd assume that among the population that can rise to billionaire level, virtually any could get a visa to the US. The great unwashed masses of Siberian (unanimously gentile) farmers are irrelevant to the analysis. None of them have any chance of becoming a billionaire under any regime.)

    “I’m aware nearly 80% or more of Russian-American billionaires in the US are Jewish”

    You left out the number of Russians and jewish Russians there, there could also be a majority of jewish Russians in America.

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  53. Dutch Boy says:
    @Wally
    Who runs the Federal Reserve?
    Who runs Wall Street?
    Who owns the US Congress
    Who owns the White House?
    Who runs the media / entertainment?
    Who dominates 'academia'?
    Why is AIPAC the most powerful, dominant lobby, which regularly writes the text of Congressional bills and resolutions.
    Who is it that wants to censor free speech via the "hate speech" canard.
    Who is it the demands the US shed the blood of US troops for their interests?
    Who are the biggest racists on the planet?

    I wish it were Dutchmen for the first six. Coincidentally, it isn’t.

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  54. Jack D says:
    @KA
    How is Putin pro -Iran?
    How is he anti Israel?

    You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts. It is well known that Russia is a key backer of Iran, especially in its nuclear program.

    Read this and then repeat your statement with a straight face:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran

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  55. @Wally
    Who runs the Federal Reserve?
    Who runs Wall Street?
    Who owns the US Congress
    Who owns the White House?
    Who runs the media / entertainment?
    Who dominates 'academia'?
    Why is AIPAC the most powerful, dominant lobby, which regularly writes the text of Congressional bills and resolutions.
    Who is it that wants to censor free speech via the "hate speech" canard.
    Who is it the demands the US shed the blood of US troops for their interests?
    Who are the biggest racists on the planet?

    TNELTDNSINEII (The Non Existent Lobby That Dare Not Speak Its Name Except In Israel)

    Hmmm, too long and not catchy enough. OK, fall back to the old standby!

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  56. rod1963 says:
    @Hunsdon
    I am, of course, a Slavophile, and more particularly a Russophile, so perhaps any of my comments should be considered in that light.

    However, looking over the history of recent (late 20th century on) failed states, the proposition that we should be pushing Russia to destabilize seems like one of those ideas you have to be really smart to think is a good idea. Hey, let's push Russia into a corner! Let's destroy their economy! Let's fracture their standing as a nation state!

    Hey, let's ignore all those ICBMs.

    We're currently wrapped around our axles trying to deal with the regional blowback from turning Libya and Syria and Iraq into failed states . . . and we think pushing Russia into that category is a good idea?

    These people(Neocons, McCain, Grahm, Kerry) promoting war are seriously stupid if not insane.

    We lost the last two wars we were in – Afghanistan and Iraq, and this was against people living in mud huts. Heck our entire Army couldn’t control Anbar province in Iraq, we had to bribe the Iraqis not to attack us(so called Anbar awakening).

    ISIS is laughing it’s ass off at us.

    Turkey is busy aiding and abetting ISIS and rapidly devolving into a another salafist state.

    Libya – turned out to be disaster. After murdering Gaddafi, we thought we could bribe a bunch of Jihdis to run the place for us while we steal their oil, instead they kicked the CIA goon squads out in a matter of hours and now the place is fragmented along tribal lines.

    So that’s how the best and brightest of America roll. Amazing.

    I am firmly convinced the people at the Pentagon and the White House are total idiots and dangerous to the world as well given their failed military track record.

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  57. The billionaire ratio reflects Slezkine’s apollonian/mercurian notion. Jews were overrepresented among Russia’s super-rich in the decade or two before 1917 too. The Russian state was undeniably, almost classically, antisemitic then.

    Maybe discrimination doesn’t damage an ethnic group’s prospects if the discrimination stops short of out-and-out expropriation. People adjust by moving into niche industries, and the discrimination builds motivation and in-group solidarity. Mild-to-vigorous discrimination *in favor* of a group certainly appears harmful, to judge from the US’s experience with the blacks.

    As for anti-Jewish discrimination in Russia today, I don’t hear anything about it, and I don’t know where you do either. At the diplomatic level, Israel has great relations with Russia *and* Ukraine, quite an accomplishment. Israel would have great relations with all of Europe, but for some countries’ noble savage romanticism projected onto the Palestinians and general anti-white stupidity–tendencies that haven’t caught on (yet?) in Eastern Europe.

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  58. Retired says:
    @Whiskey
    Steve, I love ya, but you gotta stop thinking like a Paleocon. True, Putin is not anti-Semitic and if anything, his Mini-Me USSR has stomped nationalism. Putin may have imprisoned Pussy Riot for insulting Orthodox Christmas goers as much as him, but he's stopped Ultranationalists upset at half of Central Asia moving to Moscow from doing anything substantial in pushing Central Asian Muslims back to their homeland.

    Like the USSR, Putin's Russia is multicultural by official decree and very Islam friendly.

    "Rush to war" if there is one won't be because American Jews fear Russian anti-Semitism. Lets get real here.

    It will be because Putin wants expensive oil to meet his $120 a barrel budget break even point and the US and Saudis want cheaper oil.

    If anything, the weirdness around Israel's view and actions on the Iranian nuke have to do with the nascent lining up in the ME over (what else, OIL! and how much it will cost on the world market). The Iranians have an even higher break even budget price -- about $140 a barrel according to the FT which has generally good coverage of the world oil market.

    The Saudis, with American help, have pushed oil prices low by not cutting production as demand softens globally. This is to punish the Iranians and Russians. Who are backing the Shia forces in Iraq and Assad. Meanwhile the Qataris with no real disagreement by the Saudis are funding ISIS. Israel being a small country, with limited resources, and looking at the worst closeted Muslim (and gay Black man) in the White House figures American Protection is as dead as the Holy Roman Empire.

    I don't think Israeli leadership is overcome suddenly for a love of Persian rugs and pistachios. But they figure an Iran/Russia/Assad team up against Turkey/Qatar-Saudis/ISIS is like watching Hydra and AIM fight Loki and Ultron. It seems a case of include me out.

    Israel has its own interests, directly opposed to Russias, namely being Europe's Number One Natural Gas supplier. With its truly massive offshore fields, promised it seems at a budget price also to Egypt to keep the Generals there happy (cheap gas = manufacturing with low energy costs and soaking up Egyptian unemployment, some of it, with rake-offs for the generals).

    Vlad is not a guy to just sit around and bleed red ink, and not deliver either populist promises while Ultranationalists point out that sensible, respectable Russians in Moscow and St. Petersburg can't walk the street without the call to prayer from muezzins and other forms of vibrancy assaulting their senses (and persons come to think of it). Nor even more dangerous, his massive patronage in the FSB, Military, and other armed governmental services run the risk of not being paid. On time in money that buys something. He knows how the Gorby story turned out.

    So War it will be. Aimed at: 1. cutting Saudi oil production; 2. cutting Saudi oil production; 3. cutting Saudi oil production. Putin won't just sit by and watch the Saudis run the same game on him as Gorby. Of course the Saudis wouldn't pull that if Obama had not convinced them of his (and America's) weakness, vacillation, untrustworthiness, lack of spine, backbone, and will. About 30,000 US troops in Iraq would have smacked down a nascent ISIS, intimidated the Iranians, kept the Saudis from adventuring through the Qataris, and reminded people of the power of the US even though its people don't like much War (when Republicans are in charge -- when Dems are in charge the Press cheerleads).

    But yeah, war is coming. Its all about oil. About Putin's ability to pay people he needs to stay in power. What, you thought it was ANYTHING else? And it will be Putin who starts it, against the Saudis.

    IF we hadn't had six plus years of Obama weakness, appeasement, anti-Americanism, and stupidity, it would have been worth our while to make Putin a long-term price offer on Russian oil in exchange for good behavior. But too late now, Putin KNOWS Obama is weak and stupid. Syrian red lines anyone?

    “IF we hadn’t had six plus years of Obama weakness, appeasement, anti-Americanism, and stupidity…” Combine that with Bush’s naivete and being distracted by Iraq and we have neglected our relations with Russa for decades. The last president who understood and dealt with Russia properly was Reagan.

    Who cares about rich Jews in Russia? Sailer is right, we need to deal with Putin to head off a war in Europe. To hell with the middle east.

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    What could cause a war in Europe? Every major war in Europe for 500 years has been over Germany and right now Germany has no threat on its borders. Germany is now cocooned deep within Nato and EC territory and its ideology reflects that. Germany has no intention of doing anything, and is in fact fanatically environmentalist--giving up its nuclear power and thus abandoning the potential capability to make nukes-- the Germany of today wants to dominate through soft power. Their military preparedness levels are very low. Recently the government ordered a humanitarian mission by the German armed forces to fight Ebola in Africa.
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  59. Matra says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes
     
    Not really. The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates. Any excuse will do really - anti-Semitism, homophobia, whatever. Those are just pretexts. The war fever will continue as long as the US percieves Russia to be a fundamentally weak state, riven by ethnic tension, far too dependent on oil revenue, and whose elites will be as loyal to Putin if things go badly as the Ukrainian oligarchs were loyal to Yanukovich. If you are a "realist", the time to take Russia down is now, while we can still use Saudi cheap oil to destroy the Russian economy. What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    Undermining Russia actually makes a lot of sense geopolitically for the US, if you are a neocon interested in US global power projection as the final arbiter of success.

    What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    I think you are correct. The pro-Putin Russian bloggers, tweeters, and commentators who were ecstatic about the recent gas agreement with China seem to think there will be a multipolar world with Russia one of the poles and perhaps a German-led Europe separated from the US. It is more likely that Russia’s abrupt turn towards China means Russia will play the same role to China in a new bipolar world that Europe, Australia, Japan, and Canada play to the US.

    On the list of Russia’s super rich some of the Ukrainians and Russians are probably of Jewish backgrounds too.

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  60. Sean says:
    @Retired
    "IF we hadn’t had six plus years of Obama weakness, appeasement, anti-Americanism, and stupidity..." Combine that with Bush's naivete and being distracted by Iraq and we have neglected our relations with Russa for decades. The last president who understood and dealt with Russia properly was Reagan.

    Who cares about rich Jews in Russia? Sailer is right, we need to deal with Putin to head off a war in Europe. To hell with the middle east.

    What could cause a war in Europe? Every major war in Europe for 500 years has been over Germany and right now Germany has no threat on its borders. Germany is now cocooned deep within Nato and EC territory and its ideology reflects that. Germany has no intention of doing anything, and is in fact fanatically environmentalist–giving up its nuclear power and thus abandoning the potential capability to make nukes– the Germany of today wants to dominate through soft power. Their military preparedness levels are very low. Recently the government ordered a humanitarian mission by the German armed forces to fight Ebola in Africa.

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    • Replies: @Retired
    I guess it's not a war if Russia keeps biting off pieces of eastern europe while no one does anything about it. How far will Putin go? A NATO country? What will NATO do? What will Russia do when oil prices drop and its cash flow dwindles? What will Germany do when Russia squeezes its natural gas supply? Germany is not like neutered France or Italy. I am not convinced that Russia and Germany have abandoned their warring heritage. Merckel is no sissy American Democrat. Only the Pax Americana has kept Europe pacified since 1945. Now that we have Obama they know that we are a paper tiger for 2 more years minimum.
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  61. LondonBob says:

    Its a complicated issue.

    For the Neo Cons hatred of Russia is just a deep historical antipathy, comparable to that directed at Germans, facts and reality have little to do with it. Add in the support for Iran and Assad etc and it is a sealed deal.

    For Russia it is more complicated. Make no mistake Jews must toe the line, in a way they do not have to in any Western country, otherwise they are free to go about their business. Many haven’t, such as Khardokovsky and Berezovsky, and have paid the price. Putin is an anti semite by the definition by which the jewish community determines such matters, in reality he is not. He is ultimately a pragmatic realist, he has more reverence for the Tsarist era and is no Soviet nostalgic (http://orientalreview.org/2014/08/03/vladimir-putin-on-the-russian-role-in-wwi-injustice-corrected/), like most Russians this was a substantial part of their history and he seeks to take what positives he can from it. Putin remains pressured by the nationalist opposition, the only real opposition, and as such must temper his pan Soviet/Russian Empire of Russian speakers, but by our standards he is a nationalist (Demographic decline of Russians is actively counteracted, immigration is restricted, discrimination is fine). Make no mistake though, like most Eastern Europeans, they have a well developed residual suspicion of jews, they know they are not part of the nation and their interests will often conflict. I met more than a few crypto jews in my time in Russia.

    Ultimately Russia has always been a multi-ethnic state, it was never really a nation state in the Western sense. There is no pretence that Russians are anything but ethnic Russians, but this also allows a tolerance and acknowledgement that other ethnic groups exist within the state territory with the space with which to do so. Tatars, Armenians (of who I met many) are comfortable with their identity and have carved out a niche more comparable to the Chinese in South East Asia, indeed I know some Tartar and Armenian Russian Nationalists.

    Bottom line is all wealthy keep money stashed abroad should they fall foul of the only criminal gang that matters now, the government, from which no Krysha can protect you, the Jewish ones who flee blame it on antisemitism and seek vengeance, the others don’t.

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  62. @Anonymous

    Steve Sailer said:

    @Peter Akuleyev

    Russia seems fundamentally pretty weak.
     
    Agreed, apart from the ability to end the U.S. and Europe before lunch, pretty weak indeed.

    Yeah, well, I suppose we shouldn’t forget those ICBMs when planning destabilization of Russia.

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  63. LondonBob says:

    In the 90s people like the Ruebens and Marc Rich brought money and experience to their co ethnics in Russia, a big advantage.

    Anon in comment 42 has it right, Russia is a great power, a power ruled at the the whim of one man. His policies and his country’s past history rings far too many deeply paranoid alarm bells.

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  64. Art Deco says: • Website
    @Peter Akuleyev

    But Putin’s revival of state power in Russia has triggered old Jewish-American anti-Czarist reflexes
     
    Not really. The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates. Any excuse will do really - anti-Semitism, homophobia, whatever. Those are just pretexts. The war fever will continue as long as the US percieves Russia to be a fundamentally weak state, riven by ethnic tension, far too dependent on oil revenue, and whose elites will be as loyal to Putin if things go badly as the Ukrainian oligarchs were loyal to Yanukovich. If you are a "realist", the time to take Russia down is now, while we can still use Saudi cheap oil to destroy the Russian economy. What is really going on is a struggle between the US and China for the corpse of Russia, much like Russia and Britain fought over the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century.

    Undermining Russia actually makes a lot of sense geopolitically for the US, if you are a neocon interested in US global power projection as the final arbiter of success.

    The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates.

    I tend to doubt the ‘foreign policy establishment’ are as foolish as certain combox blowhards.

    Sections of Russia which have a plurality of non-Russians are of modest dimensions (and small for an aspirant sovereign entity) and commonly surrounded by ethnic Russians. The most thoroughly foreign would be Chechenya (pop. 1.3 million) and Tuva (pop. 300,000). The only examples of a country speaking a common language decomposing into component states in the post-Westphalian era would be the dissolution of the United Provinces of Central America, the American Civil War, the Irish secession from Britain in 1922, the dissolution of Lebanon in 1975, and the dissolution of Somalia in 1991. Central America was not a durable and established entity, there isn’t much of an analogue in Russia to the rivalry between Catholic Ireland and England, inter-regional variation in political preferences and social systems is nowhere near as severe in contemporary Russia as it was in the United States in 1860, Russia is not a crazy-quilt of confessionally delineated fiefdoms, and Russia is not riven with lineage groups. Given that Russia held together while the Soviet Union dissolved into its component parts and given that Chechenyan secession was successfully suppressed, I do not think there are many opportunities in this regard.

    As for the economic and social condition of the country, the per capita income of Russia has doubled in the last 15 years, a partial revival in fertility has at least brought the country to the European average in that time, and the dependency of the country on natural resource rents and revenues has been declining monotonically for a half-generation.

    If that was ever anyone’s aim, the ship has sailed.

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    I tend to doubt the ‘foreign policy establishment’ are as foolish as certain combox blowhards. The other choice is that they are monstrously evil. I, too, incline in that direction most days.
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  65. @5371
    Anyone who thinks Russia is "fundamentally weak" (fundamentally - there's a weasel word!) is welcome to try and prove it. How's that going so far?

    Anyone who thinks Russia is “fundamentally weak” (fundamentally – there’s a weasel word!) is welcome to try and prove it. How’s that going so far?

    Russia is self-evidently weak.

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  66. Jack D says:
    @Anon
    "Putin is very anti-Semitic when you include transfer of nuclear technology to Iran."

    More like Jews are very anti-Persian when they support Israel's 300 illegal nukes but throws fits about Iran that only wants civilian-use nuclear energy.

    In what sense are Israel’s nukes “illegal”? Can you point to a particular treaty or UN Resolution? If they are “illegal” why are there no UN sanctions on Israel?

    PS – how do you know it’s 300 – have you counted them?

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity? After all, it’s not like they have oil or anything that could be used to generate electricity without nuclear power. How stupid do you think we are?

    I can’t imagine why Israel would be anti-Iran. It couldn’t be because their leaders keep threatening to destroy Israel and sponsor Hezbollah and Hamas.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    "In what sense are Israel’s nukes “illegal”?"

    Well, Iran's possession of no nukes is declared as illegal by US and EU. So, if Iran's no nukes is illegal, then why Israel's 300 nukes are surely illegal.

    " Can you point to a particular treaty or UN Resolution? If they are “illegal” why are there no UN sanctions on Israel?"

    Come on. UN is the arm of big powers. UN decided to sanction the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the first place to create Israel. It has no credibility.
    , @John
    Isreal's undeclared nuclear arsenal, and the USA's shielding of Israel's nuclear weapons program, amounts to a living lie and a double standard that undermines the ability of the USA to credibly critique the nuclear weapons aspirations of other nations and limits its functional ability to control the spread of nuclear arsenals worldwide. It undermines the credibility of the classification system when that system willfully ignores the known existence of a nuclear arsenal in the middle east. Thereofre, Israel's nuclear arsenal has a negative effect on regional stability via undermining the international nuclear weapons monitoring and control system.

    Protection of Israel's open flouting of modern western standards of nuclear accountability also undermines the outwardly progressive social stance of Jews in the diaspora. Maintaining the pretense that Israel and diaspora Jews are two separate entities to be critiqued independently no longer has any sway in the west. If it did, AIPAC would crumble and Israel wouldn't think twice about Jonathan Pollard; to use two obvious examples of the strong link. Neither is the case.
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  67. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I say that because it's a classic Dog That Didn't Bark situation: if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn't we?

    if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn’t we?

    Certainly an extremely high percentage of them, probably a majority, left the country. There are worse things for law abiding middle-income burgers than being disliked by resentful proles because of your ethnicity.

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    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Knew three Jews who returned, one from Germany and two from the US. One from the US because her father is very much wanted by the FBI admittedly. A lot of opportunity in Russia, especially when you are not law abiding. Money seems the primary motivation.

    Still it was tiresome with my Welsh dark eyes and dark hair to have to publicise my Christianity.
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  68. LondonBob says:
    @Lot

    if ordinary Jews were being oppressed for being Jewish by the Putin regime, we kind of sort of would have heard a little bit about it by now, wouldn’t we?
     
    Certainly an extremely high percentage of them, probably a majority, left the country. There are worse things for law abiding middle-income burgers than being disliked by resentful proles because of your ethnicity.

    Knew three Jews who returned, one from Germany and two from the US. One from the US because her father is very much wanted by the FBI admittedly. A lot of opportunity in Russia, especially when you are not law abiding. Money seems the primary motivation.

    Still it was tiresome with my Welsh dark eyes and dark hair to have to publicise my Christianity.

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    • Replies: @Lot

    One from the US because her father is very much wanted by the FBI admittedly.
     
    Wanted by the FBI for what?


    Still it was tiresome with my Welsh dark eyes and dark hair to have to publicise my Christianity.
     
    You mean in Russia? Don't the majority of adult Russian men have dark hair, and ~30% dark eyes, not to mention nearly all of the various "dark white" minorities like Georgians and Armenians? Assuming someone with dark features is jewish is an odd thing absent other information.

    My semi-informed impression of Russia is there is a substantial paranoid anti-semite fringe, a large percentage that is mildly hostile to jews, while another large segment is especially warm and goes out of its way to be friendly to reaction to the rest, which also describes the state of the USA and Western Europe 100 years ago.
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  69. Lot says:

    The various jews in the media talking smack about Russia has nothing to do with latent anti-czarism, and everything to do with our military industrial complex, which sucks up 6% of every dollar we earn (and because of progressive taxation, more than 10% of the income of those in high brackets like me).

    There is an endless demand for articulate spokesmen to demonize “enemies” to justify our spending more than triple what we actually need to spend on the military. Certainly too many jews make their living this way, but so do too many gentiles. Larison provides the best defense of Russia against the warmonger caucus, and he seems to find the worst anti-Russia propagandists are non-jewish Mitt Romney, Dick Cheney, Marco Rubio, and Rick Santorum.

    Outside of these few military-industrial complex spokesjews (like the American Enterprise Institute’s vile Dan Senor), the vast majority are (1) liberals who are against Bush-Cheney style warmongering on Russia (2) conservatives who defer to the wise judgment of the pro-Russia Bibi government (3) Israelis who elected that pro-Russia government, and who have a lot of Slavic Russian blood flowing through them due to mass immigration of half and quarter Russian Jews to Israel.

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    • Replies: @conatus
    Great comment
    "our military industrial complex, which sucks up 6% of every dollar we earn (and because of progressive taxation, more than 10% of the income of those in high brackets like me). "

    True true true
    Wikipedia has an entry '.List of countries by Military Expenditures'

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

    You can see we spend 36.6% of all military expenditures on the planet. Fearsome China spends 10% and the rapacious Russians spend 5%.
    Our economy is about 22% of the world's GDP so we are even aggressively spending beyond our means on our military.
    What for? Our middle class is taxed so China can peacefully transport her goods to the US to take away their jobs, but hey if that middle class ever put down the beer can and quit watching football and paid attention, maybe this wouldn't happen.
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  70. Lot says:

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity?

    Iran has a very low birthrate and is surrounded by hostile states, two of which have nukes. 30 years ago it was invaded by Iraq, which used chemical weapons against it. Their desire for nukes is understandable and no threat to the United States.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    That's completely different that what Iran says publicly. They swear that their nuclear program is peaceful and not for the purpose of building weapons. So you admit that they are lying? And you are absolutely sure that no future Ayatollah would want to use his nukes against the US? Willing to bet your life on it?
    , @Hunsdon
    Well said, sir.
    , @John
    You can verify that Israel has no nukes pointed at the USA? I'd bet that it has one or two. It certainly has them pointed to Europe, as they have admitted, and American conservative whites tend to feel strongly about the continued existence of our European cousins.
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  71. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    In what sense are Israel's nukes "illegal"? Can you point to a particular treaty or UN Resolution? If they are "illegal" why are there no UN sanctions on Israel?

    PS - how do you know it's 300 - have you counted them?

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity? After all, it's not like they have oil or anything that could be used to generate electricity without nuclear power. How stupid do you think we are?

    I can't imagine why Israel would be anti-Iran. It couldn't be because their leaders keep threatening to destroy Israel and sponsor Hezbollah and Hamas.

    “In what sense are Israel’s nukes “illegal”?”

    Well, Iran’s possession of no nukes is declared as illegal by US and EU. So, if Iran’s no nukes is illegal, then why Israel’s 300 nukes are surely illegal.

    ” Can you point to a particular treaty or UN Resolution? If they are “illegal” why are there no UN sanctions on Israel?”

    Come on. UN is the arm of big powers. UN decided to sanction the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the first place to create Israel. It has no credibility.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    This is a bunch of doubletalk. You said that Israel's nukes were "illegal" . The dictionary says that illegal means "contrary to or forbidden by law". I asked you to point to the law that Israel is violating (as anyone who has ever gotten a traffic ticket knows, in order to be guilty of illegality you have to violate some specific section of a particular law) and you utterly failed.
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  72. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    If there was a network of communist Jews in the US who sent atomic secrets to Stalin, then there was likely an anti-Stalinist network of Jews in the USSR that was working for the West.
    Stalin was paranoid but not entirely.
    FDR and Truman would have done better to be a bit more paranoid about the likes of Rosenbergs and Sobell.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    I get it. The fact that Stalin had Jewish spies in America proved to him that America had Jewish spies in Russia. The MORE that American Jews supported Stalin, the more Stalin had to worry about his own Jews supporting Eisenhower.

    By the way, if there were such spies, since most of the Cold War files have come out now - who are they? What were the names of the Jewish spies for America in Russia?

    Anti-semites haven't changed from Henry Adams's day. John Hay said that Adams was "clean daft" on the subject of Jews.."when he saw Vesuvius reddening the midnight air he searched the horizon to find a Jew stoking the fire."
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  73. Lot says:

    I go even further than Larison with Russia-pacifism. Taking Crimea was completely justified given its long history as part of Russia and the fact the vast majority of the population identifies as Russia and wanted to be part of Russia. If Putin wants to take any other contiguous parts of Ukraine that fit this bill, we should let him.

    Russia shows remarkable restraint in response to our evil foreign policy establishment’s constant provocations, including training the militaries of hostile governments right on its border. Imagine if Russia encouraged Mexican nationalists to attack the various mostly-American retirement communities dotting the Baja coastline, or funded a successful overthrow of the Canadian government. The only place I’d draw the line is the Baltic states, who have the desire and ability to become normal members of Western Europe. But the Caucuses, Belarus, Central Asia, Mongolia, and Moldova? Russia ought to have a free hand managing those backward and poorly-run places where America and Western Europe have no interest.

    While the mildly antisemetic, homophobic, and illiberal elements of Russian culture are unfortunate, they are on the decline due to globalization and secularization, and they are none of our business either way.

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    • Replies: @Udolpho

    While the mildly antisemetic, homophobic, and illiberal elements of Russian culture are unfortunate,
     
    I think those elements are actually quite fortunate for Russians. Russia may end up enjoying being Russian while the West disintegrates into multicultural gray goo. But I gather your people may still make a profit from that goo, so no biggie.
    , @John
    You're in the wrong comments section if you expect to find any lamentation of Russia's resistance to further liberalism. You won't find much agreement in celebrating an increase in globalization and secularization either. It is notable that you grouped antisemitic in with homophobic and illiberal. Is Israel to be the only nation that is allowed to cultivate a strong streak of (ethnocentric) conservatism? Put differently, is every other country to be secularized and liberalized just so the Jews can feel comfortable there?
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  74. Ross says:

    Putin mildly exploited existing antisemitic feelings in Russia when he destroyed the oligarchs who defied him, but there isn’t much evidence that it’s a wider state policy. Similarly his government will exploit the Nationalist right, but won’t actually change it’s extremely open immigration policy which sees millions of Turkic central Asians and Muslim caucasians entering Russia.

    Putin is a thief, not a nationalist let alone a Nazi.

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  75. Lot says:
    @LondonBob
    Knew three Jews who returned, one from Germany and two from the US. One from the US because her father is very much wanted by the FBI admittedly. A lot of opportunity in Russia, especially when you are not law abiding. Money seems the primary motivation.

    Still it was tiresome with my Welsh dark eyes and dark hair to have to publicise my Christianity.

    One from the US because her father is very much wanted by the FBI admittedly.

    Wanted by the FBI for what?

    Still it was tiresome with my Welsh dark eyes and dark hair to have to publicise my Christianity.

    You mean in Russia? Don’t the majority of adult Russian men have dark hair, and ~30% dark eyes, not to mention nearly all of the various “dark white” minorities like Georgians and Armenians? Assuming someone with dark features is jewish is an odd thing absent other information.

    My semi-informed impression of Russia is there is a substantial paranoid anti-semite fringe, a large percentage that is mildly hostile to jews, while another large segment is especially warm and goes out of its way to be friendly to reaction to the rest, which also describes the state of the USA and Western Europe 100 years ago.

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  76. @Realist
    "Putin's Billionaires"
    What the hell does that mean? Do you mean Russian billionaires?
    Are the billionaires in the U. S. Obama's billionaires?

    What the hell does that mean? Do you mean Russian billionaires?
    Are the billionaires in the U. S. Obama’s billionaires?

    According to a newspaper headline in the movie Iron Lady millionaires created during Thatcher’s booming economy were called “Maggie’s millionaires”

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  77. Jack D says:
    @Anon
    "In what sense are Israel’s nukes “illegal”?"

    Well, Iran's possession of no nukes is declared as illegal by US and EU. So, if Iran's no nukes is illegal, then why Israel's 300 nukes are surely illegal.

    " Can you point to a particular treaty or UN Resolution? If they are “illegal” why are there no UN sanctions on Israel?"

    Come on. UN is the arm of big powers. UN decided to sanction the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the first place to create Israel. It has no credibility.

    This is a bunch of doubletalk. You said that Israel’s nukes were “illegal” . The dictionary says that illegal means “contrary to or forbidden by law”. I asked you to point to the law that Israel is violating (as anyone who has ever gotten a traffic ticket knows, in order to be guilty of illegality you have to violate some specific section of a particular law) and you utterly failed.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    "This is a bunch of doubletalk. You said that Israel’s nukes were “illegal” ."

    They violate MY laws.
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  78. SFG says:
    @Anon
    "Stalin didn’t start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it – arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc."

    Stalin was a paranoid mass-killer, but he was right to be paranoid about Jewish dual loyalty. (Look at US today. Would any honest observer deny that Jews had been working in their tribal interest?) After WWII, the cold war was on. Stalin backed the creation of Israel, but Israel threw its lot with the West. Stalin felt betrayed and felt that Soviet Jews still retained Jewish consciousness and loyalties at odds with Soviet interests. He was right. His mass purges and killings weren't justified, but he was right to fear disparate nationalisms, especially as the USSR was so diverse.
    Given all the dirty tricks pulled by globalist Jews against Russia since the end of the Cold War, I think it's fair to say it's not irrational to be suspicious of Jewish agendas.

    "I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven’t really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. "

    I think Sailer is doing a bit of subconscious-reading here.
    Of course, Jews don't have much of a case against Putin for being anti-Jewish. But a lot of Jewish gripe about Putin has to do with Putin's suppression of Jewish takeover of Russia. For Jews, it's not enough that Jews are very successful in Russia. They want Jews to rule Russia. When Khodorovsky was sent to jail, many Jewish alarm bells went off. Some Jews did raise the specter of 'antisemitism' but others defended Khodorovsky in the name of 'free markets' or 'rule of law'. But would they have really cared if Khodo were a Tatar billionaire?

    Also, even though Putin isn't anti-Jewish, the things he supports---revived national pride, Christian culture, higher birthrates among White Russians---and things he opposes---homo agenda especially---are troubling to Jews because Putin's policies are opposite to those pushed by Jews in the West.

    Jews see Putin as being two-faced. He is pro-Jewish because he knows Jews control the world, and Russia needs to do business with the world. But he also supports the very things that Jews around the world loathe, especially white nationalism, Christian tradition, and anti-homo-agenda. So, he passes himself as a philosemite while supporting the very things that Jews around the world loathe most.

    There is blatant Jewishness and shadow-Jewishness. Blatant Jewishness is something like Zionism or Jewish Pride.
    Shadow-Jewishness involve matters that are not Jewish per se but perceived by Jews as 'good for Jews'. The homo agenda that favors elite minority rule is one such shadow-Jewishness.

    So, Jews see Putin as a kind of anti-shadow-semite because he has a bad record on shadow-Jewish matters.

    Could be. I never had much hatred for Putin beyond apprehension about what a strong Russia means for the USA, maybe because I don’t really follow the shadow agenda. But I’m half-breed and not too loyal to the tribe–I find it equally bizarre to be defending Israel’s attacks on the Palestinians and to be obsessed with destroying it because you’re mad at Gloria Steinem. (I am also mad at Gloria Steinem, BTW.)

    It’s just a country with a powerful lobby, you deal with as best you can. Personally I think they’ve gone too far.

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  79. Jack D says:
    @Anon
    If there was a network of communist Jews in the US who sent atomic secrets to Stalin, then there was likely an anti-Stalinist network of Jews in the USSR that was working for the West.
    Stalin was paranoid but not entirely.
    FDR and Truman would have done better to be a bit more paranoid about the likes of Rosenbergs and Sobell.

    I get it. The fact that Stalin had Jewish spies in America proved to him that America had Jewish spies in Russia. The MORE that American Jews supported Stalin, the more Stalin had to worry about his own Jews supporting Eisenhower.

    By the way, if there were such spies, since most of the Cold War files have come out now – who are they? What were the names of the Jewish spies for America in Russia?

    Anti-semites haven’t changed from Henry Adams’s day. John Hay said that Adams was “clean daft” on the subject of Jews..”when he saw Vesuvius reddening the midnight air he searched the horizon to find a Jew stoking the fire.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My wife's uncle, the Air Force colonel with a Ph.D. in metallurgy, went behind the Berlin Wall a few times as a seeming tourist to spend some hours talking in a parked car on a dark side street in East Berlin with Soviet Jewish defense engineers who were waiting out the five year cooling off period the Soviets imposed before letting them take their valuable secrets to Israel or America.
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  80. Jack D says:
    @Lot

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity?
     
    Iran has a very low birthrate and is surrounded by hostile states, two of which have nukes. 30 years ago it was invaded by Iraq, which used chemical weapons against it. Their desire for nukes is understandable and no threat to the United States.

    That’s completely different that what Iran says publicly. They swear that their nuclear program is peaceful and not for the purpose of building weapons. So you admit that they are lying? And you are absolutely sure that no future Ayatollah would want to use his nukes against the US? Willing to bet your life on it?

    Read More
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  81. conatus says:
    @Lot
    The various jews in the media talking smack about Russia has nothing to do with latent anti-czarism, and everything to do with our military industrial complex, which sucks up 6% of every dollar we earn (and because of progressive taxation, more than 10% of the income of those in high brackets like me).

    There is an endless demand for articulate spokesmen to demonize "enemies" to justify our spending more than triple what we actually need to spend on the military. Certainly too many jews make their living this way, but so do too many gentiles. Larison provides the best defense of Russia against the warmonger caucus, and he seems to find the worst anti-Russia propagandists are non-jewish Mitt Romney, Dick Cheney, Marco Rubio, and Rick Santorum.

    Outside of these few military-industrial complex spokesjews (like the American Enterprise Institute's vile Dan Senor), the vast majority are (1) liberals who are against Bush-Cheney style warmongering on Russia (2) conservatives who defer to the wise judgment of the pro-Russia Bibi government (3) Israelis who elected that pro-Russia government, and who have a lot of Slavic Russian blood flowing through them due to mass immigration of half and quarter Russian Jews to Israel.

    Great comment
    “our military industrial complex, which sucks up 6% of every dollar we earn (and because of progressive taxation, more than 10% of the income of those in high brackets like me). ”

    True true true
    Wikipedia has an entry ‘.List of countries by Military Expenditures’

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

    You can see we spend 36.6% of all military expenditures on the planet. Fearsome China spends 10% and the rapacious Russians spend 5%.
    Our economy is about 22% of the world’s GDP so we are even aggressively spending beyond our means on our military.
    What for? Our middle class is taxed so China can peacefully transport her goods to the US to take away their jobs, but hey if that middle class ever put down the beer can and quit watching football and paid attention, maybe this wouldn’t happen.

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  82. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Opposition to Putin in Russia is led by Russian-speaking Jews. Yes, they’re doing well under him, but they’d like to do better and more importantly they’d like Russians to do worse. It’s misleading to say that only American Jews are out to get Putin. Russian Jews are even more obsessed with overthrowing him. Most of the anti-Putin journalists in Moscow are Jews, most of the pro-Kiev-junta activists in Russia are Jews, even though there are orders of magnitude more Ukrainians in Russia than Jews.

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  83. Chiron says:

    Ukranian Nationalists pledge allegiance to Israel

    http://embassies.gov.il/kiev/NewsAndEvents/Pages/DinElYaroshMeeting27Feb2014.aspx#p

    Auto-translated from Ukrainian:

    http://embassies.gov.il/kiev/NewsAndEvents/Pages/DinElYaroshMeeting27Feb2014.aspx#p

    Meeting Reuven Din El Dmytro Yarosh

    February 26, 2014 the Ambassador of Israel to Ukraine Reuven Din El leadership with movement “Right sector” and its leader Dmitry Yarosh. leaders of the movement informed the Ambassador about his views on the future of Ukraine, and stressed that the move follows a tolerant policy on national issues. Dmitry Jarosz also stressed that all phenomena, especially anti-Semitism, not only supported “the right sector,” but continue podavlyatymutsya all legitimate means. The aim of the movement is to build a democratic Ukraine, government transparency, combating corruption and equal opportunities for all nations and peoples, their union for the construction of the nation state, ruled by the people. Parties agreed to establish a “hot line” to prevent provocations and coordination issues that arise. The leaders of the movement stressed that any manifestation of chauvinism and xenophobia they are discarded.

    —————————————————————————

    The jewish elite played all sides against each other again, the much talked Ukrainian neo-nazi are just street thugs without any political power or influence.

    Putin isn’t anti-jewish because he knows that ‘Murica and the Anglosphere poodles would declare WWIII on Russia if the “Chosen” are really threatened.

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    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "Ukranian Nationalists pledge allegiance to Israel"

    Just like in the US. Both Dems and GOP pledge allegiance to Jews and Israel.
    So do Ukraine and Russia.

    Paradoxically, I think Dems and GOP are so divided because they are united in their devotion to Jewish power. Same with Russians and Ukrainians.
    Of course, that is what Jewish power wants: Gentiles to come apart against one another but then to come together to support Jewish power.
    It's surreal.

    Jews are like the god-race. Even people who hate one another most must be united in their worship of Jews.
    It's like Catholics and Protestants killed one another by the bushel... in the name of serving God.

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  84. @Jack D
    I get it. The fact that Stalin had Jewish spies in America proved to him that America had Jewish spies in Russia. The MORE that American Jews supported Stalin, the more Stalin had to worry about his own Jews supporting Eisenhower.

    By the way, if there were such spies, since most of the Cold War files have come out now - who are they? What were the names of the Jewish spies for America in Russia?

    Anti-semites haven't changed from Henry Adams's day. John Hay said that Adams was "clean daft" on the subject of Jews.."when he saw Vesuvius reddening the midnight air he searched the horizon to find a Jew stoking the fire."

    My wife’s uncle, the Air Force colonel with a Ph.D. in metallurgy, went behind the Berlin Wall a few times as a seeming tourist to spend some hours talking in a parked car on a dark side street in East Berlin with Soviet Jewish defense engineers who were waiting out the five year cooling off period the Soviets imposed before letting them take their valuable secrets to Israel or America.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Generally speaking, in Soviet period, a Soviet citizen could not freely travel from the Soviet Union to any other East Bloc country - doing so was almost as difficult as getting a visa to go to the West. Some of the Soviet Jews did migrate out of the Soviet Union thru E. Berlin. The fact that these scientists were already in E. Berlin at all probably meant that they were already on their way out the door, but in that case why risk a firing squad to talk to the Americans when you could be talking to them in Vienna in a few weeks? I'm sure you are giving us your best recollection but these kind of stories often get garbled in the retelling. Is your wife's uncle still around to give a clear who-what-when-where account?
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  85. Retired says:
    @Sean
    What could cause a war in Europe? Every major war in Europe for 500 years has been over Germany and right now Germany has no threat on its borders. Germany is now cocooned deep within Nato and EC territory and its ideology reflects that. Germany has no intention of doing anything, and is in fact fanatically environmentalist--giving up its nuclear power and thus abandoning the potential capability to make nukes-- the Germany of today wants to dominate through soft power. Their military preparedness levels are very low. Recently the government ordered a humanitarian mission by the German armed forces to fight Ebola in Africa.

    I guess it’s not a war if Russia keeps biting off pieces of eastern europe while no one does anything about it. How far will Putin go? A NATO country? What will NATO do? What will Russia do when oil prices drop and its cash flow dwindles? What will Germany do when Russia squeezes its natural gas supply? Germany is not like neutered France or Italy. I am not convinced that Russia and Germany have abandoned their warring heritage. Merckel is no sissy American Democrat. Only the Pax Americana has kept Europe pacified since 1945. Now that we have Obama they know that we are a paper tiger for 2 more years minimum.

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  86. iSteveFan says:

    After all, it’s not like they have oil or anything that could be used to generate electricity without nuclear power. How stupid do you think we are?

    Actually, … well I won’t say.

    Why would Iran want to use its oil to produce electricity? Iran doesn’t really make anything that the rest of the world wants. Their main export is oil. If they use that oil to produce domestic electricity, they will lose out on the revenue it could have generated. So it makes sense they would want to use something else to produce electricity so that they can continue to make money from exporting oil.

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    • Replies: @Snoopy
    " Their main export is oil. If they use that oil to produce domestic electricity, they will lose out on the revenue it could have generated. So it makes sense they would want to use something else to produce electricity so that they can continue to make money from exporting oil."

    Oil needs to be refined in order to be useful for energy creation. Iran has limited refining capacity (by most estimates refining capacity is less than half of oil production). That's why Iran exports oil rather than run power plants with it. How something so elementary repeatedly escapes the "Iran is gonna nuke the world if we don't nuke it first" crowd is baffling.

    Also, nuclear energy is cheaper (and cleaner, not that its relevant here) than oil fired plants.
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  87. Hunsdon says:
    @Lot

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity?
     
    Iran has a very low birthrate and is surrounded by hostile states, two of which have nukes. 30 years ago it was invaded by Iraq, which used chemical weapons against it. Their desire for nukes is understandable and no threat to the United States.

    Well said, sir.

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  88. Bill says:
    @Art Deco
    The US foreign policy establishment simply sees Russia as fragile and is trying to encourage greater fragility and grab what it can before Russia disintegrates.

    I tend to doubt the 'foreign policy establishment' are as foolish as certain combox blowhards.

    Sections of Russia which have a plurality of non-Russians are of modest dimensions (and small for an aspirant sovereign entity) and commonly surrounded by ethnic Russians. The most thoroughly foreign would be Chechenya (pop. 1.3 million) and Tuva (pop. 300,000). The only examples of a country speaking a common language decomposing into component states in the post-Westphalian era would be the dissolution of the United Provinces of Central America, the American Civil War, the Irish secession from Britain in 1922, the dissolution of Lebanon in 1975, and the dissolution of Somalia in 1991. Central America was not a durable and established entity, there isn't much of an analogue in Russia to the rivalry between Catholic Ireland and England, inter-regional variation in political preferences and social systems is nowhere near as severe in contemporary Russia as it was in the United States in 1860, Russia is not a crazy-quilt of confessionally delineated fiefdoms, and Russia is not riven with lineage groups. Given that Russia held together while the Soviet Union dissolved into its component parts and given that Chechenyan secession was successfully suppressed, I do not think there are many opportunities in this regard.

    As for the economic and social condition of the country, the per capita income of Russia has doubled in the last 15 years, a partial revival in fertility has at least brought the country to the European average in that time, and the dependency of the country on natural resource rents and revenues has been declining monotonically for a half-generation.

    If that was ever anyone's aim, the ship has sailed.

    I tend to doubt the ‘foreign policy establishment’ are as foolish as certain combox blowhards. The other choice is that they are monstrously evil. I, too, incline in that direction most days.

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  89. Jack D says:
    @Steve Sailer
    My wife's uncle, the Air Force colonel with a Ph.D. in metallurgy, went behind the Berlin Wall a few times as a seeming tourist to spend some hours talking in a parked car on a dark side street in East Berlin with Soviet Jewish defense engineers who were waiting out the five year cooling off period the Soviets imposed before letting them take their valuable secrets to Israel or America.

    Generally speaking, in Soviet period, a Soviet citizen could not freely travel from the Soviet Union to any other East Bloc country – doing so was almost as difficult as getting a visa to go to the West. Some of the Soviet Jews did migrate out of the Soviet Union thru E. Berlin. The fact that these scientists were already in E. Berlin at all probably meant that they were already on their way out the door, but in that case why risk a firing squad to talk to the Americans when you could be talking to them in Vienna in a few weeks? I’m sure you are giving us your best recollection but these kind of stories often get garbled in the retelling. Is your wife’s uncle still around to give a clear who-what-when-where account?

    Read More
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  90. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    This is a bunch of doubletalk. You said that Israel's nukes were "illegal" . The dictionary says that illegal means "contrary to or forbidden by law". I asked you to point to the law that Israel is violating (as anyone who has ever gotten a traffic ticket knows, in order to be guilty of illegality you have to violate some specific section of a particular law) and you utterly failed.

    “This is a bunch of doubletalk. You said that Israel’s nukes were “illegal” .”

    They violate MY laws.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tatiana
    They violate your laws? TOUGH!
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  91. Tatiana says:
    @Anon
    "This is a bunch of doubletalk. You said that Israel’s nukes were “illegal” ."

    They violate MY laws.

    They violate your laws? TOUGH!

    Read More
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  92. Frankie says:

    JUDAISM’S BIGGEST SECRETS… REVEALED!

    Steve, here is the “Jews and Chimneys” joke you posted explained by Orthodox Jew Luke Ford.

    For those of you who live to uncover the Great Jewish Conspiracy, your day has come!…

    http://www.lukeford.net/blog/?p=58770

    It’s almost the same thing I explained to you the other day in regards to Apartheid. The goy is dumbstruck at the Jew’s ability to explain the theory behind his answer, not understanding that the theory is irrelevant to his choice of answers. The answer is whichever is good for the Jews.

    The rabbi in the story does not want to teach the goy Talmud. Teaching the goy Talmud is not good for the Jews. Therefore, whatever answer the goy gives is wrong.

    The goy seeks a universal moral compass he can be loyal to and serve, but for the tribal Jew, the answer depends on what is good for the Jews. The primary question is what is good for the Jews.

    There is therefore no Judeo-Christian morality.

    Seriously, the anecdote shows how Jews do not have Christian values when it comes to consistency and honorable debate in arguments. Thus the Christian accepts the Jews logic and uses it in answering the next question and the Jew changes the standards previously enunciated in the earlier question and answer.

    Judeo values are not Christian values. This is clear since the Christian God is love and the Jewish God is a jealous angry one. The Christian God is accessible to everyone. The Jewish God may be omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent, but selected a chosen people to give his message to and requires a strict embrace of rules if you want to convert.

    Here’s how this applied to South Africa:

    http://www.lukeford.net/blog/?p=58534

    … Whites surrendered their rule in South Africa (leftist non-Orthodox Jews played a big role in this)
    …Of course, the goyim try to use our tricks back on us, screaming about how Israel (with its rule over the West Bank) is apartheid.

    … The consistent far-Left doesn’t understand that this was never a moral issue for Jews, but merely a tactical, probing one. They think we don’t see the inconsistent morality because of tribalism on Israel, but they are failing to understand the obvious — that there never was any overarching morality and ideology in the first place (instead, it was hatred of whitey).

    We Jews do what we need to do to survive and that includes shifting our public arguments. We may embrace democracy when it suits us but in the end, we want to survive as a distinct people in our own land. There’s nothing in Torah about the necessity of democracy in our own land. There’s nothing in Torah about giving non-Jews in our land any rights that might interfere with our way of life.

    …Whites should learn a lesson from us. They should put their survival first and let ideological justifications for surviving as a distinct people change as needed. First you do what you need to do, and second you invent reasons for doing what you did.

    That’s all there is to it. And this tidbit:

    http://www.lukeford.net/blog/?p=59222

    A nice Jewish lady once told me, when I was at a Club Med, “You probably think of yourself as a man first, then maybe after that as your occupation, then after that as your ethnicity. What you don’t understand is that Jews think of themselves as Jews first, second, and third.”

    I wouldn’t argue with that. The Jewish drive to power, both the personal and group varieties, has completely overtaken the hapless WASPs.

    There’s a lesson here for the Anglos: the best defense is a good offense. If you’re incredibly aggressive about protecting your own ethnic interests anytime anyone points out how aggressive you are about protecting your own ethnic interests, eventually everybody will be too cowed to point it out.

    Ford’s site is the Matt Drudge of Jew-talk, referencing and interviewing Sailer, Kaus, Unz, Gottfried, Mcdonald, Mercer, Slezkine, and everyone else.

    Best site on Jew-talk, bar none.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Did you neglect to read further down the page of the first Luke Ford post you linked where he wrote:

    Secondly, the “removed,” Amish-like Rabbinical attitudes expressed in the column are not representative of most Jews. Most Jews today are secular, profoundly integrationist, and reflect what Steve you noted Revealed Preference in their mating habits...

    I would argue, and there is considerable weight in actual, real-life Jewish behavior on this front, that Jews have largely (and lamentably I might add) adopted many Christian Doctrines at least on the broader fronts:

    **Original Sin.
    **Universalism.
    **Utopianism.
    **Worship of Non-Whites as Racial Redeemers.
    **Original Sin as Racial Original Sin.
    **Pacifism.
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  93. Svigor says:

    Azeri millionaires work together to make more azeri millionaires. Same with most tribes in this world.

    Jewish millionaires however are most often millionaires DESPITE all of the other Jewish millionaires out there.

    I won’t waste any more second arguing this point that has zero chance of convincing anyone.

    I remember one super-rich Jew in an interview mentioned in passing that his super-rich Jewish uncle gave him a huge, no-interest loan to get his business started.

    He’d probably agree with you, though.

    Really, your assertion is silly. Jews show every indication of being much more ethnocentric and nepotistic than the European populations they live among.

    Wouldn’t the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number. Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn’t represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent. Maybe the discrimination free level in Russia is 1/3 or 1/2. Russian Jews may suffer from discrimination in business, but at the end of the day may be the only sober and competent people around.

    If Jews didn’t have a long history of being far more ethnocentric and nepotistic than West and North Europeans, and vice-versa, that might make sense.

    Stalin didn’t start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it – arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.

    That’s usually how it goes. Jews haven’t racked up the longest list of expulsions of any ethnic group in the world for nothin’. They were expelled from Rome before it even went Christian, lol.

    Jews by their nature are not only intelligent but highly verbal (this makes them different from the almost equally intelligent but quieter Asians) – these are just the kind of people who sooner or later will be a thorn in the side of a dictator. Ask Khodorkovsky.

    Right. That’s why the Jews were instrumental to the October revolution. That’s why they were so prominent in the “security” apparatus of the Soviet Union. That’s why the Soviet brass sent Jews to rule the problematic Soviet satrapies in Hungary, Poland, etc. It’s why the Catholic brass and the royalty were always teamed up with the Jews, and the lower clergy and the common people always teamed up against them.

    That’s why Jews have been kicked out of more countries than the rest of the world’s ethic groups combined. Because they’re so problematic for oppressive regimes.

    Generally, Jews opposed dictators when they want to install a dictator more friendly to them. In fact, that’s pretty much the key to understanding the entire Jewish revolutionary impulse: overthrow the regime for one more amenable to their interests. Same goes for their support for multiculturalism, leftism, national weakness outside Israel, etc. Peoples the world over have this nasty tendency to work toward gov’t that’s better for their own interests, rather than those of Jews, a tendency that requires constant effort to overcome.

    In short, Jews have been relied on by oppressive regimes far more often than otherwise. They’re ethnocentric and particularist and materialist, so they tend to be better at exploiting the downtrodden than native elites.

    How is Putin pro -Iran?
    How is he anti Israel?

    The Neokahns are worried about Putin giving Iran the bomb because it’s what they’d do – or threaten to do – if they were in Putin’s position.

    Mild-to-vigorous discrimination *in favor* of a group certainly appears harmful, to judge from the US’s experience with the blacks.

    Makes no sense. A great deal of black wealth comes directly or indirectly from the state. The idea that they’d be better off without it seems counter-intuitive, at best.

    Israel would have great relations with all of Europe, but for some countries’ insisting on applying at least a modicum of the Jews’ own (ostensible) policies and values in their countries, to Israel.

    FIFY.

    Read More
    • Replies: @map
    Remember, the basic source of all Jewish wealth was slavery carried over from the Roman Empire.

    When their great knack of "business" in the ancient world is heralded, remember, that was their business.

    You would have caravans of Jews shadowing Roman armies as they moved from territory to territory. When prisoners were captured, the Roman army had nowhere to warehouse these people. They could not go back to Rome to deliver the prisoners to the slave markets because that would cede territory . So the prisoners were sold to the Jewish caravans that periodically showed up after a territory was secure.

    That's where Jewish business ability got it start.
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  94. Svigor says:

    I get it. The fact that Stalin had Jewish spies in America proved to him that America had Jewish spies in Russia. The MORE that American Jews supported Stalin, the more Stalin had to worry about his own Jews supporting Eisenhower.

    By the way, if there were such spies, since most of the Cold War files have come out now – who are they? What were the names of the Jewish spies for America in Russia?

    Anti-semites haven’t changed from Henry Adams’s day. John Hay said that Adams was “clean daft” on the subject of Jews..”when he saw Vesuvius reddening the midnight air he searched the horizon to find a Jew stoking the fire.”

    It does seem inevitable that a people as radically ethnocentric as the Jews would have to cook up an elaborate web of denials, half-truths, distortions, and shibboleths to explain how the Jews are always in the right, and the rest of the world is always in the wrong.

    I get it.

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  95. Svigor says:

    Money and power buy a lot of friends. That’s why people don’t openly point and laugh at the narrative of Jewish expulsions as a tale of bad world/good Jews.

    (Side note: Wikipedia’s category “Expulsions of Jews” could use a LOT of help. It only has 11 pages, which is about 100 short, lol.).

    P.S., has anyone told Ron his code adds spaces after hot links that shouldn’t be there?

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  96. map says:
    @Svigor

    Azeri millionaires work together to make more azeri millionaires. Same with most tribes in this world.

    Jewish millionaires however are most often millionaires DESPITE all of the other Jewish millionaires out there.

    I won’t waste any more second arguing this point that has zero chance of convincing anyone.
     

    I remember one super-rich Jew in an interview mentioned in passing that his super-rich Jewish uncle gave him a huge, no-interest loan to get his business started.

    He'd probably agree with you, though.

    Really, your assertion is silly. Jews show every indication of being much more ethnocentric and nepotistic than the European populations they live among.


    Wouldn’t the relevant question be how good are Russians Jews at business compared to Russian gentiles? If Russian Jews are much better at business than gentiles, then 1/5 may be too low a number. Proportionally how many Black American billionaires are there relative to whites? That doesn’t represent discrimination (probably the reverse in actuality), only an unequal distribution of talent. Maybe the discrimination free level in Russia is 1/3 or 1/2. Russian Jews may suffer from discrimination in business, but at the end of the day may be the only sober and competent people around.
     
    If Jews didn't have a long history of being far more ethnocentric and nepotistic than West and North Europeans, and vice-versa, that might make sense.

    Stalin didn’t start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it – arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.
     
    That's usually how it goes. Jews haven't racked up the longest list of expulsions of any ethnic group in the world for nothin'. They were expelled from Rome before it even went Christian, lol.

    Jews by their nature are not only intelligent but highly verbal (this makes them different from the almost equally intelligent but quieter Asians) – these are just the kind of people who sooner or later will be a thorn in the side of a dictator. Ask Khodorkovsky.
     
    Right. That's why the Jews were instrumental to the October revolution. That's why they were so prominent in the "security" apparatus of the Soviet Union. That's why the Soviet brass sent Jews to rule the problematic Soviet satrapies in Hungary, Poland, etc. It's why the Catholic brass and the royalty were always teamed up with the Jews, and the lower clergy and the common people always teamed up against them.

    That's why Jews have been kicked out of more countries than the rest of the world's ethic groups combined. Because they're so problematic for oppressive regimes.

    Generally, Jews opposed dictators when they want to install a dictator more friendly to them. In fact, that's pretty much the key to understanding the entire Jewish revolutionary impulse: overthrow the regime for one more amenable to their interests. Same goes for their support for multiculturalism, leftism, national weakness outside Israel, etc. Peoples the world over have this nasty tendency to work toward gov't that's better for their own interests, rather than those of Jews, a tendency that requires constant effort to overcome.

    In short, Jews have been relied on by oppressive regimes far more often than otherwise. They're ethnocentric and particularist and materialist, so they tend to be better at exploiting the downtrodden than native elites.


    How is Putin pro -Iran?
    How is he anti Israel?
     
    The Neokahns are worried about Putin giving Iran the bomb because it's what they'd do - or threaten to do - if they were in Putin's position.

    Mild-to-vigorous discrimination *in favor* of a group certainly appears harmful, to judge from the US’s experience with the blacks.
     
    Makes no sense. A great deal of black wealth comes directly or indirectly from the state. The idea that they'd be better off without it seems counter-intuitive, at best.

    Israel would have great relations with all of Europe, but for some countries' insisting on applying at least a modicum of the Jews' own (ostensible) policies and values in their countries, to Israel.
     
    FIFY.

    Remember, the basic source of all Jewish wealth was slavery carried over from the Roman Empire.

    When their great knack of “business” in the ancient world is heralded, remember, that was their business.

    You would have caravans of Jews shadowing Roman armies as they moved from territory to territory. When prisoners were captured, the Roman army had nowhere to warehouse these people. They could not go back to Rome to deliver the prisoners to the slave markets because that would cede territory . So the prisoners were sold to the Jewish caravans that periodically showed up after a territory was secure.

    That’s where Jewish business ability got it start.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "That’s where Jewish business ability got it start."

    Link, please -- preferably something other than St0rmfr0nt et al.
    , @Priss Factor
    "Remember, the basic source of all Jewish wealth was slavery carried over from the Roman Empire."

    As slavery was such a common feature of the ancient world, this makes Jews neither worse or better.
    I just wish Jews would stop with the narrative where they were always good little victims and nothing but all throughout history.
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  97. Svigor says:

    The rabbi in the story does not want to teach the goy Talmud. Teaching the goy Talmud is not good for the Jews. Therefore, whatever answer the goy gives is wrong.

    Right. I’d meant to post this in Steve’s thread about that “joke,” but forgot to. It seemed painfully obvious to me, but no one had mentioned it.

    Read More
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  98. @JackD

    Many of the people who escaped the Soviets and Iron Curtain in the 1970′s were Jewish.
    For examples, see some of the bloggers at sites like Volokh Conspiracy and others. They were not all scientists, probably most were intellectuals, but it was something that seemed to be off limits to other people behind the curtain.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Believe it or not, the Soviet Union had a legal system. We can't even control immigration with our legal system but theirs covered both immigration and emigration. Emigration was not generally permitted, but there was an exception in the law for "family reunification". All of the Jews who left the USSR were required to receive invitations from relatives in Israel before they were allowed to leave. In practice, many of the invitations were phony (from people who were not really relatives) and those leaving changed their destination from Israel to the US as soon as they crossed the Iron Curtain, but on paper they were emigrating to Israel for family reunification. Of course the Soviets knew what was really happening but they were under pressure from the US and this was a way to save face.
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  99. Svigor says:

    War Nerd, many years ago, wrote that the Chechens were one of those people that you just have to whup on, because they’ll never stop trying to rule you. I laughed out loud at that, because he was describing the Jews.

    Remember, the basic source of all Jewish wealth was slavery carried over from the Roman Empire.

    Yes, this is similar to the issue the early Byzantine emperors had with the Jews. Hence a raft of laws limiting the Jewish slavers’ ability to do business at the expense of Christians.

    You would have caravans of Jews shadowing Roman armies as they moved from territory to territory. When prisoners were captured, the Roman army had nowhere to warehouse these people. They could not go back to Rome to deliver the prisoners to the slave markets because that would cede territory . So the prisoners were sold to the Jewish caravans that periodically showed up after a territory was secure.

    The specifics are new to me. Got any sources to suggest?

    Read More
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  100. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Frankie
    JUDAISM'S BIGGEST SECRETS... REVEALED!

    Steve, here is the "Jews and Chimneys" joke you posted explained by Orthodox Jew Luke Ford.

    For those of you who live to uncover the Great Jewish Conspiracy, your day has come!...

    http://www.lukeford.net/blog/?p=58770

    It’s almost the same thing I explained to you the other day in regards to Apartheid. The goy is dumbstruck at the Jew’s ability to explain the theory behind his answer, not understanding that the theory is irrelevant to his choice of answers. The answer is whichever is good for the Jews.

    The rabbi in the story does not want to teach the goy Talmud. Teaching the goy Talmud is not good for the Jews. Therefore, whatever answer the goy gives is wrong.

    The goy seeks a universal moral compass he can be loyal to and serve, but for the tribal Jew, the answer depends on what is good for the Jews. The primary question is what is good for the Jews.

    There is therefore no Judeo-Christian morality.

    ...

    Seriously, the anecdote shows how Jews do not have Christian values when it comes to consistency and honorable debate in arguments. Thus the Christian accepts the Jews logic and uses it in answering the next question and the Jew changes the standards previously enunciated in the earlier question and answer.

    Judeo values are not Christian values. This is clear since the Christian God is love and the Jewish God is a jealous angry one. The Christian God is accessible to everyone. The Jewish God may be omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent, but selected a chosen people to give his message to and requires a strict embrace of rules if you want to convert.
     
    Here's how this applied to South Africa:

    http://www.lukeford.net/blog/?p=58534

    ... Whites surrendered their rule in South Africa (leftist non-Orthodox Jews played a big role in this)
    ...Of course, the goyim try to use our tricks back on us, screaming about how Israel (with its rule over the West Bank) is apartheid.

    ... The consistent far-Left doesn’t understand that this was never a moral issue for Jews, but merely a tactical, probing one. They think we don’t see the inconsistent morality because of tribalism on Israel, but they are failing to understand the obvious — that there never was any overarching morality and ideology in the first place (instead, it was hatred of whitey).

    We Jews do what we need to do to survive and that includes shifting our public arguments. We may embrace democracy when it suits us but in the end, we want to survive as a distinct people in our own land. There’s nothing in Torah about the necessity of democracy in our own land. There’s nothing in Torah about giving non-Jews in our land any rights that might interfere with our way of life.

    ...Whites should learn a lesson from us. They should put their survival first and let ideological justifications for surviving as a distinct people change as needed. First you do what you need to do, and second you invent reasons for doing what you did.
     
    That's all there is to it. And this tidbit:

    http://www.lukeford.net/blog/?p=59222

    A nice Jewish lady once told me, when I was at a Club Med, “You probably think of yourself as a man first, then maybe after that as your occupation, then after that as your ethnicity. What you don’t understand is that Jews think of themselves as Jews first, second, and third.”

    I wouldn’t argue with that. The Jewish drive to power, both the personal and group varieties, has completely overtaken the hapless WASPs.
    ...
    There’s a lesson here for the Anglos: the best defense is a good offense. If you’re incredibly aggressive about protecting your own ethnic interests anytime anyone points out how aggressive you are about protecting your own ethnic interests, eventually everybody will be too cowed to point it out.
     
    Ford's site is the Matt Drudge of Jew-talk, referencing and interviewing Sailer, Kaus, Unz, Gottfried, Mcdonald, Mercer, Slezkine, and everyone else.

    Best site on Jew-talk, bar none.

    Did you neglect to read further down the page of the first Luke Ford post you linked where he wrote:

    Secondly, the “removed,” Amish-like Rabbinical attitudes expressed in the column are not representative of most Jews. Most Jews today are secular, profoundly integrationist, and reflect what Steve you noted Revealed Preference in their mating habits…

    I would argue, and there is considerable weight in actual, real-life Jewish behavior on this front, that Jews have largely (and lamentably I might add) adopted many Christian Doctrines at least on the broader fronts:

    **Original Sin.
    **Universalism.
    **Utopianism.
    **Worship of Non-Whites as Racial Redeemers.
    **Original Sin as Racial Original Sin.
    **Pacifism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Did you neglect to read this?

    Steve Sailer’s blog gets some sharp comments including this from Syon:
     
    Below that line are direct copy and paste comments from Sailer's article, not Ford's writing.

    The particularly clueless or propaganda comment you referenced was written by - wait for it - Whiskey.
    http://www.unz.com/isteve/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/#comment-730197

    Nice try though. The cat's out of the bag and there's no going back.
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  101. HA says:
    @map
    Remember, the basic source of all Jewish wealth was slavery carried over from the Roman Empire.

    When their great knack of "business" in the ancient world is heralded, remember, that was their business.

    You would have caravans of Jews shadowing Roman armies as they moved from territory to territory. When prisoners were captured, the Roman army had nowhere to warehouse these people. They could not go back to Rome to deliver the prisoners to the slave markets because that would cede territory . So the prisoners were sold to the Jewish caravans that periodically showed up after a territory was secure.

    That's where Jewish business ability got it start.

    “That’s where Jewish business ability got it start.”

    Link, please — preferably something other than St0rmfr0nt et al.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    Link, please — preferably something other than St0rmfr0nt et al.

    The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious.

    It is very clear that members of TLTDNSIN have been involved with slavery for a long time.
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  102. map says:

    http://ironlight.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/the-major-jewish-role-in-the-slave-trade/


    Jews, in writing their own histories, have matter-of-factly acknowledged the Jewish role in slave trading, looking at it as simply an extremely lucrative Jewish commercial venture. See A History of the Jew: From Babylonian Exile to the End of World War II, published by the Jewish Publications Society of America.

    Remember Chuck Schumer’s rationalization for why Jews were in niche professions like pawn shops and payday loans? Schumer argued that Jews were not “allowed to own land.” Trouble is, the only people who owned land were nobles. So, because Jews were not included in the nobility, they felt it their right to engage in some kind of predatory practice.

    Then I wondered how far this practice went back and it occurred to me that the origins of Jewish business success must’ve been slavery. Take the Roman Empire. Any really lucrative, large-scale practice, such as, say, grain farming, harvesting and shipping or trades like metalwork would’ve been locked up by the more connected elements of Roman society. Senators and guilds would’ve controlled any real enterprise, outside of those directly controlled by the government. But the chaos of the battlefield really allowed the Jews to prosper and they’ve been attempting to duplicate those conditions everywhere they go. If the majority is settled, the Jews get squeezed out until something chaotic occurs that allows them to slip in. I guess this is why we keep hearing “disruptive” coming up in market circumstances.

    Of course, Jews could just settle in to being peasants, or laborers, or apprentices, but that would not be good enough for them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    Thank you. I don't have access to the text right now, and so it's difficult to know without that to what extent slavery predominated other forms of Jewish income -- say, horse-trading, money-lending, wine, prostitution, carpet-weaving, etc.

    In particular, horse-trading, alcohol, and prostitution also seem like the kind of thing that an army on the march would be in particular need of, as well as pawn-brokering and money-lending services that could transform not just slaves, but pillage of all kinds into cash (and into alcohol and and prostitutes). Itinerant caravans would be a pretty good way of supplying all that. I find it plausible that Jews would be among those taking part in such caravans (and I suspect they might have engaged in that kind of thing long before the Roman Empire came about), but I suspect that Armenians and Greeks were also involved, as well as other ethnic groups, and Greeks and Armenians historically have a less sinister reputation overall. So details would be important in clarifying all that.

    But in any case, I sincerely appreciate your response.
    , @Priss Factor
    "Remember Chuck Schumer’s rationalization for why Jews were in niche professions like pawn shops and payday loans? Schumer argued that Jews were not “allowed to own land.” Trouble is, the only people who owned land were nobles. So, because Jews were not included in the nobility, they felt it their right to engage in some kind of predatory practice."

    Why were Jews so keen on settling in Christian places where they were allowed to 'own land'? Why not return to the Middle East? Or go to black Africa? I mean who stopped them?
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  103. Snoopy says:
    @iSteveFan

    After all, it’s not like they have oil or anything that could be used to generate electricity without nuclear power. How stupid do you think we are?
     
    Actually, ... well I won't say.

    Why would Iran want to use its oil to produce electricity? Iran doesn't really make anything that the rest of the world wants. Their main export is oil. If they use that oil to produce domestic electricity, they will lose out on the revenue it could have generated. So it makes sense they would want to use something else to produce electricity so that they can continue to make money from exporting oil.

    ” Their main export is oil. If they use that oil to produce domestic electricity, they will lose out on the revenue it could have generated. So it makes sense they would want to use something else to produce electricity so that they can continue to make money from exporting oil.”

    Oil needs to be refined in order to be useful for energy creation. Iran has limited refining capacity (by most estimates refining capacity is less than half of oil production). That’s why Iran exports oil rather than run power plants with it. How something so elementary repeatedly escapes the “Iran is gonna nuke the world if we don’t nuke it first” crowd is baffling.

    Also, nuclear energy is cheaper (and cleaner, not that its relevant here) than oil fired plants.

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  104. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @HA
    "That’s where Jewish business ability got it start."

    Link, please -- preferably something other than St0rmfr0nt et al.

    Link, please — preferably something other than St0rmfr0nt et al.

    The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious.

    It is very clear that members of TLTDNSIN have been involved with slavery for a long time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious...

    Oh, OK then. You're telling me it is the person who asks for evidence who not a thinking person -- as opposed to someone who is supposedly "in command of a lot of information" and yet suspiciously declines to disseminate or detail it in any way? How déclassé of me! What need have we of actual evidence with assurances like that? Paradoxically, in spite of how obtusely evasive and unthinking your post is, it explains and elucidates so much of the commentary around here regarding Jews! I bet there's even a long German word that for that kind of paradox, but it escapes me.

    To repeat, the post I was referring to made specific claims about caravans of Jewish slavers in Roman times being the original source of Jewish business smarts (not, as I had been led to believe by Sailer and others <a href="http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/04/schmaltz-v-history.html" who actually trouble themselves to provide details and scholarly citations, money-lending, or something to that effect, though he was referring more to Medieval Europe, if I recall). I guess Sailer is just one of those non-thinking idiots who needs to get with the program. In any case, your awesome rhetorical skills notwithstanding, something a bit more evidentiary would have been more helpful with regard to the specific point being made.

    , @HA
    "The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious."

    Oh, OK, then. You're telling me that it is the person who asks for some evidence who is not a thinking person, as opposed to the one supposedly "in command of a lot of information" that he suspiciously fails to disseminate or detail in any way, and instead simply asserts that no links are necessary? Well, I stand corrected -- how déclassé of me! I mean, who could fail to be convinced by awesome rhetorical maneuvers like that?

    Seriously, as obtusely evasive and profoundly absent of thinking your post was, it paradoxically elucidates and enlightens so much regarding a lot of the commentary here regarding Jews. I'd bet there's even a long German word for that kind of paradox, but it escapes me.

    In any case, to repeat, the claim I asked citations for was a very specific one to the effect that Roman caravans of Jewish slavers were the original source of Jewish business acumen (as opposed to, say, money-lending, as Sailer and others who actually bother to provide citations and references have informed us, though they were referring more to Medieval Europe, if I recall). I guess Sailer is one of those unthinking idiots who needs to get with the program.
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  105. Mr. Anon says:

    “Clyde says:

    Putin is very anti-Semitic when you include transfer of nuclear technology to Iran.”

    Is the US then anti-semitic because we offer military assistance to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Jordan, and the Gulf Emirates?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Udolpho
    But of course, and just wait for one of Steve's philo-Semitic commenters to explain it to you in excrutiatingly stupid detail.
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  106. HA says:
    @The most deplorable one
    Link, please — preferably something other than St0rmfr0nt et al.

    The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious.

    It is very clear that members of TLTDNSIN have been involved with slavery for a long time.

    “The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious…

    Oh, OK then. You’re telling me it is the person who asks for evidence who not a thinking person — as opposed to someone who is supposedly “in command of a lot of information” and yet suspiciously declines to disseminate or detail it in any way? How déclassé of me! What need have we of actual evidence with assurances like that? Paradoxically, in spite of how obtusely evasive and unthinking your post is, it explains and elucidates so much of the commentary around here regarding Jews! I bet there’s even a long German word that for that kind of paradox, but it escapes me.

    To repeat, the post I was referring to made specific claims about caravans of Jewish slavers in Roman times being the original source of Jewish business smarts (not, as I had been led to believe by Sailer and others <a title=”"http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/04/schmaltz-v-history.html"&#8221; href="http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/04/schmaltz-v-history.html&quot; who actually trouble themselves to provide details and scholarly citations, money-lending, or something to that effect, though he was referring more to Medieval Europe, if I recall). I guess Sailer is just one of those non-thinking idiots who needs to get with the program. In any case, your awesome rhetorical skills notwithstanding, something a bit more evidentiary would have been more helpful with regard to the specific point being made.

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  107. HA says:
    @The most deplorable one
    Link, please — preferably something other than St0rmfr0nt et al.

    The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious.

    It is very clear that members of TLTDNSIN have been involved with slavery for a long time.

    “The thinking person, in command of a lot of information, does not need a link to verify the obvious.”

    Oh, OK, then. You’re telling me that it is the person who asks for some evidence who is not a thinking person, as opposed to the one supposedly “in command of a lot of information” that he suspiciously fails to disseminate or detail in any way, and instead simply asserts that no links are necessary? Well, I stand corrected — how déclassé of me! I mean, who could fail to be convinced by awesome rhetorical maneuvers like that?

    Seriously, as obtusely evasive and profoundly absent of thinking your post was, it paradoxically elucidates and enlightens so much regarding a lot of the commentary here regarding Jews. I’d bet there’s even a long German word for that kind of paradox, but it escapes me.

    In any case, to repeat, the claim I asked citations for was a very specific one to the effect that Roman caravans of Jewish slavers were the original source of Jewish business acumen (as opposed to, say, money-lending, as Sailer and others who actually bother to provide citations and references have informed us, though they were referring more to Medieval Europe, if I recall). I guess Sailer is one of those unthinking idiots who needs to get with the program.

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  108. HA says:
    @map
    http://ironlight.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/the-major-jewish-role-in-the-slave-trade/

    @HA
    @Svigor

    Jews, in writing their own histories, have matter-of-factly acknowledged the Jewish role in slave trading, looking at it as simply an extremely lucrative Jewish commercial venture. See A History of the Jew: From Babylonian Exile to the End of World War II, published by the Jewish Publications Society of America.

    Remember Chuck Schumer's rationalization for why Jews were in niche professions like pawn shops and payday loans? Schumer argued that Jews were not "allowed to own land." Trouble is, the only people who owned land were nobles. So, because Jews were not included in the nobility, they felt it their right to engage in some kind of predatory practice.

    Then I wondered how far this practice went back and it occurred to me that the origins of Jewish business success must've been slavery. Take the Roman Empire. Any really lucrative, large-scale practice, such as, say, grain farming, harvesting and shipping or trades like metalwork would've been locked up by the more connected elements of Roman society. Senators and guilds would've controlled any real enterprise, outside of those directly controlled by the government. But the chaos of the battlefield really allowed the Jews to prosper and they've been attempting to duplicate those conditions everywhere they go. If the majority is settled, the Jews get squeezed out until something chaotic occurs that allows them to slip in. I guess this is why we keep hearing "disruptive" coming up in market circumstances.

    Of course, Jews could just settle in to being peasants, or laborers, or apprentices, but that would not be good enough for them.

    Thank you. I don’t have access to the text right now, and so it’s difficult to know without that to what extent slavery predominated other forms of Jewish income — say, horse-trading, money-lending, wine, prostitution, carpet-weaving, etc.

    In particular, horse-trading, alcohol, and prostitution also seem like the kind of thing that an army on the march would be in particular need of, as well as pawn-brokering and money-lending services that could transform not just slaves, but pillage of all kinds into cash (and into alcohol and and prostitutes). Itinerant caravans would be a pretty good way of supplying all that. I find it plausible that Jews would be among those taking part in such caravans (and I suspect they might have engaged in that kind of thing long before the Roman Empire came about), but I suspect that Armenians and Greeks were also involved, as well as other ethnic groups, and Greeks and Armenians historically have a less sinister reputation overall. So details would be important in clarifying all that.

    But in any case, I sincerely appreciate your response.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't slaves conquered by the Roman army be most likely marched to Rome by units of the Roman army? Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.
    , @Twinkie

    but I suspect that Armenians and Greeks were also involved, as well as other ethnic groups, and Greeks and Armenians historically have a less sinister reputation overall. So details would be important in clarifying all that.
     
    Coastal Levantines had been involved in long-distance trade since time immemorial. It's almost certain that they were also involved in army-related trades. For that matter, contemporary Italian and North African merchants weren't exactly dunces. There is a rather good amount of surviving records and artifacts from the Garum (fermented fish sauce) trade in the Mediterranean during the Classical period.
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  109. @HA
    Thank you. I don't have access to the text right now, and so it's difficult to know without that to what extent slavery predominated other forms of Jewish income -- say, horse-trading, money-lending, wine, prostitution, carpet-weaving, etc.

    In particular, horse-trading, alcohol, and prostitution also seem like the kind of thing that an army on the march would be in particular need of, as well as pawn-brokering and money-lending services that could transform not just slaves, but pillage of all kinds into cash (and into alcohol and and prostitutes). Itinerant caravans would be a pretty good way of supplying all that. I find it plausible that Jews would be among those taking part in such caravans (and I suspect they might have engaged in that kind of thing long before the Roman Empire came about), but I suspect that Armenians and Greeks were also involved, as well as other ethnic groups, and Greeks and Armenians historically have a less sinister reputation overall. So details would be important in clarifying all that.

    But in any case, I sincerely appreciate your response.

    Wouldn’t slaves conquered by the Roman army be most likely marched to Rome by units of the Roman army? Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade."

    'Angry' made the point that managing large groups of slaves would divert manpower from more pressing military activities, which seems plausible, but what you say also makes sense. Again, the devil is in the details. I guess it would also depend on the kinds of slaves one is talking about. Young female slaves, for example, would naturally feed into the prostitution business (as would young male slaves, come to think of it), and it may be that different slavers picked over different kinds of slaves and left the rest to the soldiers.

    My larger point is the question why Jews would get tarred for doing that kind of thing more so than the Greeks, Medes, Persians, and Armenians, etc., who were also likely present. (In particular, I've heard that it was the Armenians rather than the Jews who in antiquity were regarded as the sharpest tools in the shed when it came to business.) I hear similar arguments in the matter of Jewish participation in the African slave trade. There are those who claim that Jews are peculiarly responsible for that, too, just as there are Jewish scolds who want to continually remind everyone about "white" responsibility for African slavery even as they attempt to shame anyone who inquires as to what exactly "white" is supposed to mean in that particular case.

    , @map
    Slaves probably would've been caged, making armed escort unnecessary. Plus, the incentive to create more slaves would increase the number of soldiers needed to provide escorts, which would bleed personnel from the ranks. Caravans shadowing the Roman Army makes more sense.
    , @Lot
    Cochran says there was no indication that Jews were a mercantile minority in Roman times, and of course your anti-semite trolls here provide no citation at all for their endless nasty slanders. Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.

    The white slave trade in the middle ages was dominated by Crimean Tatars and North African Arabized pirates, with a large Greek and Balkan Muslim convert contingent.

    I've read something like 5000 pages worth of Roman history in the past decade, and I know of no statement attributing the slave trade to any particular ethnic group. There are scattered references to Gaulish, Belgian and German slaves.

    In my view, the most likely slave traders were many and diverse local Roman allies of the enslaved people, with a few Italian Roman auxiliaries supervising. In the case of Caesar's conquests, the allies were the Gaulish tribes who lived in modern NW Italy and SE France, who in Caesar's time were partly Romanized and mostly loyal allies. Conquered portions of Gaul were assigned to these allies, and as the people controlling the route from northern Gaul and Germania, and familiar with both Roman and barbarian customs and language, they would have been the natural slave traders.

    Finally, individual legionnaires and pro-counsels, at the end of their service in the provinces, would have been the other natural group to bring slaves from remote areas and sell them along their route home. War back then had a strong "take what you can pillage" aspect, and fresh slaves collected after sacking a barbarian town could have been sold to whoever was on his way back to Italy at the time.
    , @Hard Line Realist

    Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.
     
    I guess that's why traders were unable to transport lots of black slaves from Africa to the new world in ships.

    Oh wait, that's in the alternative history.
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  110. Anon says: • Disclaimer
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  111. HA says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't slaves conquered by the Roman army be most likely marched to Rome by units of the Roman army? Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.

    “Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.”

    ‘Angry’ made the point that managing large groups of slaves would divert manpower from more pressing military activities, which seems plausible, but what you say also makes sense. Again, the devil is in the details. I guess it would also depend on the kinds of slaves one is talking about. Young female slaves, for example, would naturally feed into the prostitution business (as would young male slaves, come to think of it), and it may be that different slavers picked over different kinds of slaves and left the rest to the soldiers.

    My larger point is the question why Jews would get tarred for doing that kind of thing more so than the Greeks, Medes, Persians, and Armenians, etc., who were also likely present. (In particular, I’ve heard that it was the Armenians rather than the Jews who in antiquity were regarded as the sharpest tools in the shed when it came to business.) I hear similar arguments in the matter of Jewish participation in the African slave trade. There are those who claim that Jews are peculiarly responsible for that, too, just as there are Jewish scolds who want to continually remind everyone about “white” responsibility for African slavery even as they attempt to shame anyone who inquires as to what exactly “white” is supposed to mean in that particular case.

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  112. map says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't slaves conquered by the Roman army be most likely marched to Rome by units of the Roman army? Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.

    Slaves probably would’ve been caged, making armed escort unnecessary. Plus, the incentive to create more slaves would increase the number of soldiers needed to provide escorts, which would bleed personnel from the ranks. Caravans shadowing the Roman Army makes more sense.

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  113. map says:

    Roman commanders probably discouraged most of the practices that would seem profitable by extracting massive rents from the caravans. I doubt prostitution or alcohol was rampant at the front.

    Slave caravans solved the problem of having to guard, feed and maintain prisoners so that was tacitly approved.

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  114. Udolpho says: • Website
    @Mr. Anon
    "Clyde says:

    Putin is very anti-Semitic when you include transfer of nuclear technology to Iran."

    Is the US then anti-semitic because we offer military assistance to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Jordan, and the Gulf Emirates?

    But of course, and just wait for one of Steve’s philo-Semitic commenters to explain it to you in excrutiatingly stupid detail.

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  115. Udolpho says: • Website
    @Lot
    I go even further than Larison with Russia-pacifism. Taking Crimea was completely justified given its long history as part of Russia and the fact the vast majority of the population identifies as Russia and wanted to be part of Russia. If Putin wants to take any other contiguous parts of Ukraine that fit this bill, we should let him.

    Russia shows remarkable restraint in response to our evil foreign policy establishment's constant provocations, including training the militaries of hostile governments right on its border. Imagine if Russia encouraged Mexican nationalists to attack the various mostly-American retirement communities dotting the Baja coastline, or funded a successful overthrow of the Canadian government. The only place I'd draw the line is the Baltic states, who have the desire and ability to become normal members of Western Europe. But the Caucuses, Belarus, Central Asia, Mongolia, and Moldova? Russia ought to have a free hand managing those backward and poorly-run places where America and Western Europe have no interest.

    While the mildly antisemetic, homophobic, and illiberal elements of Russian culture are unfortunate, they are on the decline due to globalization and secularization, and they are none of our business either way.

    While the mildly antisemetic, homophobic, and illiberal elements of Russian culture are unfortunate,

    I think those elements are actually quite fortunate for Russians. Russia may end up enjoying being Russian while the West disintegrates into multicultural gray goo. But I gather your people may still make a profit from that goo, so no biggie.

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  116. Jack D says:
    @Name Withheld
    @Steve Sailer
    @JackD

    Many of the people who escaped the Soviets and Iron Curtain in the 1970's were Jewish.
    For examples, see some of the bloggers at sites like Volokh Conspiracy and others. They were not all scientists, probably most were intellectuals, but it was something that seemed to be off limits to other people behind the curtain.

    Believe it or not, the Soviet Union had a legal system. We can’t even control immigration with our legal system but theirs covered both immigration and emigration. Emigration was not generally permitted, but there was an exception in the law for “family reunification”. All of the Jews who left the USSR were required to receive invitations from relatives in Israel before they were allowed to leave. In practice, many of the invitations were phony (from people who were not really relatives) and those leaving changed their destination from Israel to the US as soon as they crossed the Iron Curtain, but on paper they were emigrating to Israel for family reunification. Of course the Soviets knew what was really happening but they were under pressure from the US and this was a way to save face.

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  117. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't slaves conquered by the Roman army be most likely marched to Rome by units of the Roman army? Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.

    Cochran says there was no indication that Jews were a mercantile minority in Roman times, and of course your anti-semite trolls here provide no citation at all for their endless nasty slanders. Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.

    The white slave trade in the middle ages was dominated by Crimean Tatars and North African Arabized pirates, with a large Greek and Balkan Muslim convert contingent.

    I’ve read something like 5000 pages worth of Roman history in the past decade, and I know of no statement attributing the slave trade to any particular ethnic group. There are scattered references to Gaulish, Belgian and German slaves.

    In my view, the most likely slave traders were many and diverse local Roman allies of the enslaved people, with a few Italian Roman auxiliaries supervising. In the case of Caesar’s conquests, the allies were the Gaulish tribes who lived in modern NW Italy and SE France, who in Caesar’s time were partly Romanized and mostly loyal allies. Conquered portions of Gaul were assigned to these allies, and as the people controlling the route from northern Gaul and Germania, and familiar with both Roman and barbarian customs and language, they would have been the natural slave traders.

    Finally, individual legionnaires and pro-counsels, at the end of their service in the provinces, would have been the other natural group to bring slaves from remote areas and sell them along their route home. War back then had a strong “take what you can pillage” aspect, and fresh slaves collected after sacking a barbarian town could have been sold to whoever was on his way back to Italy at the time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right, it would seem from a practical point of view that physical control of new slaves while being transported to markets would likely be done by the Roman military themselves or by loyal locals.
    , @map
    If the Jews were not a mercantile minority in Roman times, then what were they doing to survive? They had no nation of their own and owned little to no land. There is no evidence of them being farmers, or tradesmen, or sailors, or peasants, or anything that you would associate a nation of people doing. If we ask the question, "what were the Romans doing?" we can see a robust and complicated society that provided a wide variety of activities to do. If we ask, "what were the Jews doing?" we have an enigma wrapped in a riddle. Yet, the existence of Romans and Jews as large, cohesive groups is without a doubt. So, what were the Jews doing to keep their families fed? Tearing pages out of the Torah?

    Just because you had "Gaulish, German and Belgian slaves" does not mean that Gauls, Germans and Belgians were enslaving these people. Slavery disappeared under the Empire and Julius Caesar's time would not have trusted any of these conquered people's to administer anything.

    The slander in all of this is not that Jews may have a very dark and sordid history. The slander is trying to maintain the fiction that the Jews are right and good everywhere and always. Nobody buys this. It is this rejection of absurd claims that is driving the narrative and commentary here, not anti-Semitism.
    , @IBC

    Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.
     
    In Hugh Thomas' history of the transatlantic slave trade, I think he actually minimizes the level of Jewish involvement in the introduction, maybe to avoid negative attention. However, if you actually read the book, there are quite a few examples of Jews and especially Conversos (who in more positive historical contexts are usually still claimed as Jewish) who had a prominent role in the slave trade, especially in the earlier years. They were mostly involved with the Portuguese, Spanish, and Dutch, but there was some involvement elsewhere, even in Denmark. However, contrary to the claims of some black American activists, there weren't that many Jewish people directly involved with the British and American slave trade. Jews and Conversos were also less prominent in the French and later, the Brazilian trades.

    People of Jewish or Converso background were also involved with the early establishment of the sugar cane plantation system which they helped spread from Brazil to the Caribbean and which fueled much of the demand for slave labor. Here's an interesting and relevant account of the old Jewish communities in Suriname:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Suriname.html

    For a sense of contemporary attitudes about Conversos and why I've counted them as Jewish:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/travel/in-spain-a-family-reunion-centuries-

    later.html?_r=0

    I don't think it makes sense to blame Jews for slavery or the plantation system --there is a lot of blame to go around and the majority of those involved weren't Jewish in most cases. That being said though, we shouldn't write them out of the story either, as Abe Foxman and his supporters seem to demand.
    , @Jack D
    In contemporary ancient accounts, the Jews are never mentioned as being particularly shrewd or mercantile or anything like that. The Jews who came from the Arab world (of which Israel has many) to this day do not show particularly high intelligence or flair for business. This whole idea of Jewish slave traders in the Roman Empire is some kind of imaginary retcon to fit an anti-Semitic narrative - like Watto the slave trader with the Yiddish accent in Star Wars. Did the imaginary Jewish slave traders in ancient Rome also speak w. Yiddish accents?

    What we think of as special Jewish intelligence/shrewdness is really Ashkenazi (E. European) Jewish intelligence, which has only been around for the last 1000 years or so (and really did not begin to make an impact on the broader culture until the Enlightenment).
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  118. Priss Factor [AKA "dna turtles"] says:
    @map
    http://ironlight.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/the-major-jewish-role-in-the-slave-trade/

    @HA
    @Svigor

    Jews, in writing their own histories, have matter-of-factly acknowledged the Jewish role in slave trading, looking at it as simply an extremely lucrative Jewish commercial venture. See A History of the Jew: From Babylonian Exile to the End of World War II, published by the Jewish Publications Society of America.

    Remember Chuck Schumer's rationalization for why Jews were in niche professions like pawn shops and payday loans? Schumer argued that Jews were not "allowed to own land." Trouble is, the only people who owned land were nobles. So, because Jews were not included in the nobility, they felt it their right to engage in some kind of predatory practice.

    Then I wondered how far this practice went back and it occurred to me that the origins of Jewish business success must've been slavery. Take the Roman Empire. Any really lucrative, large-scale practice, such as, say, grain farming, harvesting and shipping or trades like metalwork would've been locked up by the more connected elements of Roman society. Senators and guilds would've controlled any real enterprise, outside of those directly controlled by the government. But the chaos of the battlefield really allowed the Jews to prosper and they've been attempting to duplicate those conditions everywhere they go. If the majority is settled, the Jews get squeezed out until something chaotic occurs that allows them to slip in. I guess this is why we keep hearing "disruptive" coming up in market circumstances.

    Of course, Jews could just settle in to being peasants, or laborers, or apprentices, but that would not be good enough for them.

    “Remember Chuck Schumer’s rationalization for why Jews were in niche professions like pawn shops and payday loans? Schumer argued that Jews were not “allowed to own land.” Trouble is, the only people who owned land were nobles. So, because Jews were not included in the nobility, they felt it their right to engage in some kind of predatory practice.”

    Why were Jews so keen on settling in Christian places where they were allowed to ‘own land’? Why not return to the Middle East? Or go to black Africa? I mean who stopped them?

    Read More
    • Replies: @map
    "Why were Jews so keen on settling in Christian places where they were allowed to ‘own land’? Why not return to the Middle East? Or go to black Africa? I mean who stopped them?"

    The Jews settled in Christian lands because they were functionaries of the Ottoman Empire, helping the Ottomans run conquered territories. Remember, Jews speak lovingly of "cosmopolitan" Andalusia, where Muslims were the rulers, Jews were the administrators and Christians were the serfs.

    When Spain finally gained its freedom, the Jews had to scatter further away into Western Europe. They were merely useful to the Ottomans, not loved. They could not go back to the Middle East because Islam claims that Jews cried to corrupt Mohammed. So they took their ill-gotten gains from pillaging Spain and moved Westward.
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  119. Priss Factor [AKA "dna turtles"] says:
    @map
    Remember, the basic source of all Jewish wealth was slavery carried over from the Roman Empire.

    When their great knack of "business" in the ancient world is heralded, remember, that was their business.

    You would have caravans of Jews shadowing Roman armies as they moved from territory to territory. When prisoners were captured, the Roman army had nowhere to warehouse these people. They could not go back to Rome to deliver the prisoners to the slave markets because that would cede territory . So the prisoners were sold to the Jewish caravans that periodically showed up after a territory was secure.

    That's where Jewish business ability got it start.

    “Remember, the basic source of all Jewish wealth was slavery carried over from the Roman Empire.”

    As slavery was such a common feature of the ancient world, this makes Jews neither worse or better.
    I just wish Jews would stop with the narrative where they were always good little victims and nothing but all throughout history.

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  120. Priss Factor [AKA "dna turtles"] says:
    @Chiron
    Ukranian Nationalists pledge allegiance to Israel

    http://embassies.gov.il/kiev/NewsAndEvents/Pages/DinElYaroshMeeting27Feb2014.aspx#p

    Auto-translated from Ukrainian:

    http://embassies.gov.il/kiev/NewsAndEvents/Pages/DinElYaroshMeeting27Feb2014.aspx#p

    Meeting Reuven Din El Dmytro Yarosh

    February 26, 2014 the Ambassador of Israel to Ukraine Reuven Din El leadership with movement "Right sector" and its leader Dmitry Yarosh. leaders of the movement informed the Ambassador about his views on the future of Ukraine, and stressed that the move follows a tolerant policy on national issues. Dmitry Jarosz also stressed that all phenomena, especially anti-Semitism, not only supported "the right sector," but continue podavlyatymutsya all legitimate means. The aim of the movement is to build a democratic Ukraine, government transparency, combating corruption and equal opportunities for all nations and peoples, their union for the construction of the nation state, ruled by the people. Parties agreed to establish a "hot line" to prevent provocations and coordination issues that arise. The leaders of the movement stressed that any manifestation of chauvinism and xenophobia they are discarded.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The jewish elite played all sides against each other again, the much talked Ukrainian neo-nazi are just street thugs without any political power or influence.

    Putin isn't anti-jewish because he knows that 'Murica and the Anglosphere poodles would declare WWIII on Russia if the "Chosen" are really threatened.

    “Ukranian Nationalists pledge allegiance to Israel”

    Just like in the US. Both Dems and GOP pledge allegiance to Jews and Israel.
    So do Ukraine and Russia.

    Paradoxically, I think Dems and GOP are so divided because they are united in their devotion to Jewish power. Same with Russians and Ukrainians.
    Of course, that is what Jewish power wants: Gentiles to come apart against one another but then to come together to support Jewish power.
    It’s surreal.

    Jews are like the god-race. Even people who hate one another most must be united in their worship of Jews.
    It’s like Catholics and Protestants killed one another by the bushel… in the name of serving God.

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  121. Priss Factor [AKA "dna turtles"] says:

    Jews are like the god-race. Even peoples who hate one another must be agreed on worshiping Jews.
    So, Russians and Ukrainians kill one another in their devotion to Jews.

    It’s like Catholics and Protestants slaughtered one another in the Thirty Years War in the name of God.

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  122. Here are photos of two different events held last year to commemorate the founding of the SS Galicia Division in the west of Ukraine. These are “our” guys, the pro-western, pro-EU, pro-LBGT guys who are going to stick it to Putin:

    The reburial of remains of warriors of the Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Ukrainian) “Galician” http://photo.unian.net/eng/themes/41164/

    March in a day of 70th anniversary of founding Division Galicia in Lviv PHOTO, VIDEO http://www.greenab.info/march-in-a-day-of-70th-anniversary-of-founding-division-galicia-in-lviv-photo-video/

    That’s in the same city where the high school kids jumped up and down and chanted “hang the moskals!” in the earlier video I posted here.

    I love how we’re all supposed to cry ourselves to sleep worrying about whether liking apple strudel makes us a Nazi but this stuff gets a pass. I guess only nut cases or paid Putin trolls notice a whiff of hypocrisy coming off the governing class of the West.

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  123. Twinkie says:
    @HA
    Thank you. I don't have access to the text right now, and so it's difficult to know without that to what extent slavery predominated other forms of Jewish income -- say, horse-trading, money-lending, wine, prostitution, carpet-weaving, etc.

    In particular, horse-trading, alcohol, and prostitution also seem like the kind of thing that an army on the march would be in particular need of, as well as pawn-brokering and money-lending services that could transform not just slaves, but pillage of all kinds into cash (and into alcohol and and prostitutes). Itinerant caravans would be a pretty good way of supplying all that. I find it plausible that Jews would be among those taking part in such caravans (and I suspect they might have engaged in that kind of thing long before the Roman Empire came about), but I suspect that Armenians and Greeks were also involved, as well as other ethnic groups, and Greeks and Armenians historically have a less sinister reputation overall. So details would be important in clarifying all that.

    But in any case, I sincerely appreciate your response.

    but I suspect that Armenians and Greeks were also involved, as well as other ethnic groups, and Greeks and Armenians historically have a less sinister reputation overall. So details would be important in clarifying all that.

    Coastal Levantines had been involved in long-distance trade since time immemorial. It’s almost certain that they were also involved in army-related trades. For that matter, contemporary Italian and North African merchants weren’t exactly dunces. There is a rather good amount of surviving records and artifacts from the Garum (fermented fish sauce) trade in the Mediterranean during the Classical period.

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  124. @Lot
    Cochran says there was no indication that Jews were a mercantile minority in Roman times, and of course your anti-semite trolls here provide no citation at all for their endless nasty slanders. Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.

    The white slave trade in the middle ages was dominated by Crimean Tatars and North African Arabized pirates, with a large Greek and Balkan Muslim convert contingent.

    I've read something like 5000 pages worth of Roman history in the past decade, and I know of no statement attributing the slave trade to any particular ethnic group. There are scattered references to Gaulish, Belgian and German slaves.

    In my view, the most likely slave traders were many and diverse local Roman allies of the enslaved people, with a few Italian Roman auxiliaries supervising. In the case of Caesar's conquests, the allies were the Gaulish tribes who lived in modern NW Italy and SE France, who in Caesar's time were partly Romanized and mostly loyal allies. Conquered portions of Gaul were assigned to these allies, and as the people controlling the route from northern Gaul and Germania, and familiar with both Roman and barbarian customs and language, they would have been the natural slave traders.

    Finally, individual legionnaires and pro-counsels, at the end of their service in the provinces, would have been the other natural group to bring slaves from remote areas and sell them along their route home. War back then had a strong "take what you can pillage" aspect, and fresh slaves collected after sacking a barbarian town could have been sold to whoever was on his way back to Italy at the time.

    Right, it would seem from a practical point of view that physical control of new slaves while being transported to markets would likely be done by the Roman military themselves or by loyal locals.

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  125. @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't slaves conquered by the Roman army be most likely marched to Rome by units of the Roman army? Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.

    Slaves are dangerous cargo, so it would seem like the kind of thing that the conquering army would control even if they were outsourcing other trade.

    I guess that’s why traders were unable to transport lots of black slaves from Africa to the new world in ships.

    Oh wait, that’s in the alternative history.

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  126. Matra says:

    Here are photos of two different events held last year to commemorate the founding of the SS Galicia Division in the west of Ukraine. These are “our” guys, the pro-western, pro-EU, pro-LBGT guys who are going to stick it to Putin.

    It was only ten years after the Holodomor. Can you really blame them for taking up arms against the USSR? Many thousands were slaughtered by the Soviets and today some Ukrainians honour their sacrifice much like today’s Russians honour those who served mass murderer Stalin in the Red Army. A quick search will also turn up photos of Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine with Soviet flags. If you are going to attach every Nazi crime to today’s Ukrainian nationalists along with pro-LBGT nonsense that few people in Central and Eastern Europe support then it is equally fair to attach the Holodomor and all the other crimes of the USSR to those on Putin’s side.

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    • Replies: @inertial

    It was only ten years after the Holodomor. Can you really blame them for taking up arms against the USSR?
     
    Galicia has nothing to do with Holodomor as it wasn't a part of USSR then.

    Here is a map of Holodomor of as it affected various regions of Ukraine.

    http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/images/map1932.jpg

    Even those regions in Western Ukraine (west of Kiev) that were part of USSR were affected relatively lightly. The real ground zero for mass starvation was Central and Eastern Ukraine (and, of course, Southern Russia), where 10 years later people fought loyally for the Soviet Union.

    In general, being affected by Holodomor and hating Russia is inversely correlated.
    , @Anonymous
    I agree with you entirely that it made perfect sense for Galicians and other western Ukrainians to side with the Germans against the Soviets but I brought up those photos from last year to make a different point. These SS Galicia commemorations are just part of a mountain of evidence that the "pro-western" folks now in power depend on a power base of actual, genuine neo-Nazis. So what? Well why it matters to me is the profound and irredeemable hypocrisy this shows in our western political class. We are supposed to cheer when they hound a 90-year old retired steelworker in Cleveland because he may have been in this SS Galicia unit but we're also supposed to cheer when the proud heirs to this unit take over the parliament in Kiev? We're supposed to fret and fuss and worry about whether any of our own patriotic and religious beliefs can pass the scrutiny of the Abe Foxman types but these guys in Ukraine get the stamp of approval? The EU insists that it must exist and grow in power to prevent another Hitler and yet these guys in Ukraine are their boys? That was my point.
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  127. map says:
    @Priss Factor
    "Remember Chuck Schumer’s rationalization for why Jews were in niche professions like pawn shops and payday loans? Schumer argued that Jews were not “allowed to own land.” Trouble is, the only people who owned land were nobles. So, because Jews were not included in the nobility, they felt it their right to engage in some kind of predatory practice."

    Why were Jews so keen on settling in Christian places where they were allowed to 'own land'? Why not return to the Middle East? Or go to black Africa? I mean who stopped them?

    “Why were Jews so keen on settling in Christian places where they were allowed to ‘own land’? Why not return to the Middle East? Or go to black Africa? I mean who stopped them?”

    The Jews settled in Christian lands because they were functionaries of the Ottoman Empire, helping the Ottomans run conquered territories. Remember, Jews speak lovingly of “cosmopolitan” Andalusia, where Muslims were the rulers, Jews were the administrators and Christians were the serfs.

    When Spain finally gained its freedom, the Jews had to scatter further away into Western Europe. They were merely useful to the Ottomans, not loved. They could not go back to the Middle East because Islam claims that Jews cried to corrupt Mohammed. So they took their ill-gotten gains from pillaging Spain and moved Westward.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    So they took their ill-gotten gains from pillaging Spain and moved Westward.

    Westward from Spain? To where, the Atlantic Ocean?

    After the Sephardic Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492 (without their wealth BTW), most did indeed go to other parts of the Ottoman empire - Morocco, Turkey, Syria, Greece, etc. - to the East and South, not the West. A few made it to the New World. The Ashkenazi Jews of E. Europe also moved EASTWARD over time - they started out in France, Germany, even England and moved east into Poland and Ukraine starting around 1000 yrs ago. The modern Jewish communities of Western Europe are descended from Ashkenazi Jews who moved back West mostly in the last 200 yrs. France has a Moroccan Jewish community that is very recent (post WWII).
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  128. josh says:

    I don’t know about Roman times, but the Radhanite’s were cetainly involved in the Slavic slave trade in the early middle ages.

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  129. map says:
    @Lot
    Cochran says there was no indication that Jews were a mercantile minority in Roman times, and of course your anti-semite trolls here provide no citation at all for their endless nasty slanders. Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.

    The white slave trade in the middle ages was dominated by Crimean Tatars and North African Arabized pirates, with a large Greek and Balkan Muslim convert contingent.

    I've read something like 5000 pages worth of Roman history in the past decade, and I know of no statement attributing the slave trade to any particular ethnic group. There are scattered references to Gaulish, Belgian and German slaves.

    In my view, the most likely slave traders were many and diverse local Roman allies of the enslaved people, with a few Italian Roman auxiliaries supervising. In the case of Caesar's conquests, the allies were the Gaulish tribes who lived in modern NW Italy and SE France, who in Caesar's time were partly Romanized and mostly loyal allies. Conquered portions of Gaul were assigned to these allies, and as the people controlling the route from northern Gaul and Germania, and familiar with both Roman and barbarian customs and language, they would have been the natural slave traders.

    Finally, individual legionnaires and pro-counsels, at the end of their service in the provinces, would have been the other natural group to bring slaves from remote areas and sell them along their route home. War back then had a strong "take what you can pillage" aspect, and fresh slaves collected after sacking a barbarian town could have been sold to whoever was on his way back to Italy at the time.

    If the Jews were not a mercantile minority in Roman times, then what were they doing to survive? They had no nation of their own and owned little to no land. There is no evidence of them being farmers, or tradesmen, or sailors, or peasants, or anything that you would associate a nation of people doing. If we ask the question, “what were the Romans doing?” we can see a robust and complicated society that provided a wide variety of activities to do. If we ask, “what were the Jews doing?” we have an enigma wrapped in a riddle. Yet, the existence of Romans and Jews as large, cohesive groups is without a doubt. So, what were the Jews doing to keep their families fed? Tearing pages out of the Torah?

    Just because you had “Gaulish, German and Belgian slaves” does not mean that Gauls, Germans and Belgians were enslaving these people. Slavery disappeared under the Empire and Julius Caesar’s time would not have trusted any of these conquered people’s to administer anything.

    The slander in all of this is not that Jews may have a very dark and sordid history. The slander is trying to maintain the fiction that the Jews are right and good everywhere and always. Nobody buys this. It is this rejection of absurd claims that is driving the narrative and commentary here, not anti-Semitism.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Okay, but your "slave caravan" theory doesn't actually have ancient evidence to support it. And it doesn't sound like something that Jews, with their complicated religious rules and their tendency to irritate Roman military men, would be good at it compared to other groups.
    , @Jack D
    Being mercantile and being a slave trader are two different things, especially to modern eyes (at the time, slaves would have been seen as just another commodity). Also, "mercantile" and "farmer" are not the only possible occupations - ancient Rome had a well developed economy and there were all sorts of occupations - toga makers and jewelers and sandal makers, etc. Jews were a small minority in Rome, little mentioned in ancient accounts and we don't have a good sense of what they did but it could have easily involved other occupations. Even when it comes to "mercantile" occupations, the slave trade was not the only one or even the most important. There was a major trade in grain across the Mediterranean - Rome did not grow enough of its own. They brought in marble and wild animals for the Coliseum, and olive oil and garum (fish sauce) and salt and spices and silk and all sorts of commodities. For all we know (since the records are so scant) maybe the Jews were more concentrated in one kind of trade than another - maybe they specialized in grain and the Armenians did slaves and the Phoenicians did olive oil, just like nowadays Indians do gas stations and Koreans do dry cleaners.

    You raise some sort of straw man argument that the Jews were COMPLETELY uninvolved in the slave trade - I don't know anyone who has actually said that (though there is little evidence that they were). But in modern terms, "slave trader" = "bad person" so people who try to connect the Jews to the slave trade are just trying to paint them in a negative light for their own reasons.
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  130. inertial says:
    @Matra
    Here are photos of two different events held last year to commemorate the founding of the SS Galicia Division in the west of Ukraine. These are “our” guys, the pro-western, pro-EU, pro-LBGT guys who are going to stick it to Putin.

    It was only ten years after the Holodomor. Can you really blame them for taking up arms against the USSR? Many thousands were slaughtered by the Soviets and today some Ukrainians honour their sacrifice much like today's Russians honour those who served mass murderer Stalin in the Red Army. A quick search will also turn up photos of Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine with Soviet flags. If you are going to attach every Nazi crime to today's Ukrainian nationalists along with pro-LBGT nonsense that few people in Central and Eastern Europe support then it is equally fair to attach the Holodomor and all the other crimes of the USSR to those on Putin's side.

    It was only ten years after the Holodomor. Can you really blame them for taking up arms against the USSR?

    Galicia has nothing to do with Holodomor as it wasn’t a part of USSR then.

    Here is a map of Holodomor of as it affected various regions of Ukraine.

    Even those regions in Western Ukraine (west of Kiev) that were part of USSR were affected relatively lightly. The real ground zero for mass starvation was Central and Eastern Ukraine (and, of course, Southern Russia), where 10 years later people fought loyally for the Soviet Union.

    In general, being affected by Holodomor and hating Russia is inversely correlated.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "Galicia has nothing to do with Holodomor as it wasn’t a part of USSR then."

    As someone already wrote on this site, in response to this same idiotic canard being raised before: are all Americans who didn't live or work near the old World Trade Center not permitted to be angry at Al Qaeda just because 9/11 didn't affect them personally? Are American Jews not permitted to care about the Holocaust because it happened overseas?

    Good luck trying to sell that argument.

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  131. HA says:
    @inertial

    It was only ten years after the Holodomor. Can you really blame them for taking up arms against the USSR?
     
    Galicia has nothing to do with Holodomor as it wasn't a part of USSR then.

    Here is a map of Holodomor of as it affected various regions of Ukraine.

    http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/images/map1932.jpg

    Even those regions in Western Ukraine (west of Kiev) that were part of USSR were affected relatively lightly. The real ground zero for mass starvation was Central and Eastern Ukraine (and, of course, Southern Russia), where 10 years later people fought loyally for the Soviet Union.

    In general, being affected by Holodomor and hating Russia is inversely correlated.

    “Galicia has nothing to do with Holodomor as it wasn’t a part of USSR then.”

    As someone already wrote on this site, in response to this same idiotic canard being raised before: are all Americans who didn’t live or work near the old World Trade Center not permitted to be angry at Al Qaeda just because 9/11 didn’t affect them personally? Are American Jews not permitted to care about the Holocaust because it happened overseas?

    Good luck trying to sell that argument.

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  132. nil says:

    We didn’t run the slave trade. That’s a myth that was probably inspired by numerous accounts of Jewish households or merchants owning gentile slaves. (And these didn’t necessarily reflect the behavior or even presence of actual Jews, but were often just polemics against perceived moral degeneracy). In fact, all the Hebrew/Latin/Arabic sources from 500 to 1050 only contain two references to Jews dealing in slaves.

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  133. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    Did you neglect to read further down the page of the first Luke Ford post you linked where he wrote:

    Secondly, the “removed,” Amish-like Rabbinical attitudes expressed in the column are not representative of most Jews. Most Jews today are secular, profoundly integrationist, and reflect what Steve you noted Revealed Preference in their mating habits...

    I would argue, and there is considerable weight in actual, real-life Jewish behavior on this front, that Jews have largely (and lamentably I might add) adopted many Christian Doctrines at least on the broader fronts:

    **Original Sin.
    **Universalism.
    **Utopianism.
    **Worship of Non-Whites as Racial Redeemers.
    **Original Sin as Racial Original Sin.
    **Pacifism.

    Did you neglect to read this?

    Steve Sailer’s blog gets some sharp comments including this from Syon:

    Below that line are direct copy and paste comments from Sailer’s article, not Ford’s writing.

    The particularly clueless or propaganda comment you referenced was written by – wait for it – Whiskey.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/#comment-730197

    Nice try though. The cat’s out of the bag and there’s no going back.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Luke Ford is a convert to Orthodox Judaism who harbors WN sympathies. He's not considered a great authority on the Talmud by his fellow adherents and in fact has little standing among them due to his salacious former life. What he did was offer an opinion, which elates you because it validates what you already believed. But it's not as much of a victory for you as you think because Ford is not really an insider who knows a lot about the Orthodox Jewish world. Worse, because of his inclinations towards Orthodoxy over the past several years, he is distanced from the zeitgeist of secular Jews. And his age would also separate him from understanding the thinking and motivations of younger secular Jews, who are different from their parents (more half-Jews among them, more universalist and PC). At best you've got a semi-outsider's opinion that is more relevant to older and traditionally religious Jews than it is to younger secular Jews.
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  134. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    Did you neglect to read this?

    Steve Sailer’s blog gets some sharp comments including this from Syon:
     
    Below that line are direct copy and paste comments from Sailer's article, not Ford's writing.

    The particularly clueless or propaganda comment you referenced was written by - wait for it - Whiskey.
    http://www.unz.com/isteve/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/#comment-730197

    Nice try though. The cat's out of the bag and there's no going back.

    Luke Ford is a convert to Orthodox Judaism who harbors WN sympathies. He’s not considered a great authority on the Talmud by his fellow adherents and in fact has little standing among them due to his salacious former life. What he did was offer an opinion, which elates you because it validates what you already believed. But it’s not as much of a victory for you as you think because Ford is not really an insider who knows a lot about the Orthodox Jewish world. Worse, because of his inclinations towards Orthodoxy over the past several years, he is distanced from the zeitgeist of secular Jews. And his age would also separate him from understanding the thinking and motivations of younger secular Jews, who are different from their parents (more half-Jews among them, more universalist and PC). At best you’ve got a semi-outsider’s opinion that is more relevant to older and traditionally religious Jews than it is to younger secular Jews.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Whatever one's opinion on Ford, what makes his site so valuable are the constant references, media contacts and experience, book reviews, links, and the enormous list of interviews with high-profile names including those already mentioned. You can't dispute the whole package. He's a One Stop Jew Shop.
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  135. HA says:

    “Roman commanders probably discouraged most of the practices that would seem profitable by extracting massive rents from the caravans. I doubt prostitution or alcohol was rampant at the front.”

    Prostitution and alcohol don’t have to be rampant in order to keep numerous pimps and wine (and perhaps opium, etc.) merchants busy, given the large number of soldiers present. I would agree that traders were likely extorted mercilessly by commanders, but that is to be expected — pimps and pushers pay off cops, politicians and other officials regularly (through money or through trade) and regard it simply as the cost of doing business. Also, transporting a wagon of oil amphorae back home is much more onerous than transporting its value in denarii, so I’d wager there was a brisk market in pawning and transporting looted goods of all kinds, as opposed to just slaves.

    And as others have chimed in with regard to my earlier post, even if one could show that Jews made their first big killing in trafficking slaves, that leaves unanswered the question of why anyone should regard them as any more villainous than the dozens of other factions hawking wares that would today also be regarded as odious.

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    • Replies: @map
    "And as others have chimed in with regard to my earlier post, even if one could show that Jews made their first big killing in trafficking slaves, that leaves unanswered the question of why anyone should regard them as any more villainous than the dozens of other factions hawking wares that would today also be regarded as odious."

    Uh, because they were the best at it outside of all of these other factions, plus, they managed to continue their cultural and intellectual practices, if not their very genetics, into the modern age. Isn't it the case that what we are seeing today is a 2,000 year refinement of those very early activities that set the Jews on the path they are on today?

    Look, you can talk about Germans, or Balkans or Greeks or Armenians being a part of the early Roman slave trade and maybe they were. The problem is, what exactly was a German, a Balkan, or an Armenian during the Roman era? Heck, what was a Greek? These are all very different people from their modern counterparts. I doubt a modern Armenian could even recognize an ancient Roman Armenian.

    But Jewish traditions have continuity. They carry their nation within themselves. What they also carry is the accumulated wisdom and experience of those very early odious practices on which they build other successes, just like they carry on their religious and cultural traditions from their earliest days. It is this accumulated wisdom of chicanery, duplicity, illegality and ruthlessness that gets Jews into serious trouble with host populations.

    Gypsies, for example, carry on the very old tradition of thievery and kidnapping. Is thievery and kidnapping unique to Gypsies alone? Hardly. Is it still a good idea to have a lot of Gypsies around? No.

    Jews seem to pursue very high risk survival strategy. Success creates untold riches and power. Failure "boils away" a large chunk of the Jewish population. The pattern will continue into the future, if my theory has any predictive power.
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  136. IBC says:
    @Lot
    Cochran says there was no indication that Jews were a mercantile minority in Roman times, and of course your anti-semite trolls here provide no citation at all for their endless nasty slanders. Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.

    The white slave trade in the middle ages was dominated by Crimean Tatars and North African Arabized pirates, with a large Greek and Balkan Muslim convert contingent.

    I've read something like 5000 pages worth of Roman history in the past decade, and I know of no statement attributing the slave trade to any particular ethnic group. There are scattered references to Gaulish, Belgian and German slaves.

    In my view, the most likely slave traders were many and diverse local Roman allies of the enslaved people, with a few Italian Roman auxiliaries supervising. In the case of Caesar's conquests, the allies were the Gaulish tribes who lived in modern NW Italy and SE France, who in Caesar's time were partly Romanized and mostly loyal allies. Conquered portions of Gaul were assigned to these allies, and as the people controlling the route from northern Gaul and Germania, and familiar with both Roman and barbarian customs and language, they would have been the natural slave traders.

    Finally, individual legionnaires and pro-counsels, at the end of their service in the provinces, would have been the other natural group to bring slaves from remote areas and sell them along their route home. War back then had a strong "take what you can pillage" aspect, and fresh slaves collected after sacking a barbarian town could have been sold to whoever was on his way back to Italy at the time.

    Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.

    In Hugh Thomas’ history of the transatlantic slave trade, I think he actually minimizes the level of Jewish involvement in the introduction, maybe to avoid negative attention. However, if you actually read the book, there are quite a few examples of Jews and especially Conversos (who in more positive historical contexts are usually still claimed as Jewish) who had a prominent role in the slave trade, especially in the earlier years. They were mostly involved with the Portuguese, Spanish, and Dutch, but there was some involvement elsewhere, even in Denmark. However, contrary to the claims of some black American activists, there weren’t that many Jewish people directly involved with the British and American slave trade. Jews and Conversos were also less prominent in the French and later, the Brazilian trades.

    People of Jewish or Converso background were also involved with the early establishment of the sugar cane plantation system which they helped spread from Brazil to the Caribbean and which fueled much of the demand for slave labor. Here’s an interesting and relevant account of the old Jewish communities in Suriname:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Suriname.html

    For a sense of contemporary attitudes about Conversos and why I’ve counted them as Jewish:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/travel/in-spain-a-family-reunion-centuries-

    later.html?_r=0

    I don’t think it makes sense to blame Jews for slavery or the plantation system –there is a lot of blame to go around and the majority of those involved weren’t Jewish in most cases. That being said though, we shouldn’t write them out of the story either, as Abe Foxman and his supporters seem to demand.

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  137. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    Luke Ford is a convert to Orthodox Judaism who harbors WN sympathies. He's not considered a great authority on the Talmud by his fellow adherents and in fact has little standing among them due to his salacious former life. What he did was offer an opinion, which elates you because it validates what you already believed. But it's not as much of a victory for you as you think because Ford is not really an insider who knows a lot about the Orthodox Jewish world. Worse, because of his inclinations towards Orthodoxy over the past several years, he is distanced from the zeitgeist of secular Jews. And his age would also separate him from understanding the thinking and motivations of younger secular Jews, who are different from their parents (more half-Jews among them, more universalist and PC). At best you've got a semi-outsider's opinion that is more relevant to older and traditionally religious Jews than it is to younger secular Jews.

    Whatever one’s opinion on Ford, what makes his site so valuable are the constant references, media contacts and experience, book reviews, links, and the enormous list of interviews with high-profile names including those already mentioned. You can’t dispute the whole package. He’s a One Stop Jew Shop.

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  138. map says:
    @HA
    "Roman commanders probably discouraged most of the practices that would seem profitable by extracting massive rents from the caravans. I doubt prostitution or alcohol was rampant at the front."

    Prostitution and alcohol don't have to be rampant in order to keep numerous pimps and wine (and perhaps opium, etc.) merchants busy, given the large number of soldiers present. I would agree that traders were likely extorted mercilessly by commanders, but that is to be expected -- pimps and pushers pay off cops, politicians and other officials regularly (through money or through trade) and regard it simply as the cost of doing business. Also, transporting a wagon of oil amphorae back home is much more onerous than transporting its value in denarii, so I'd wager there was a brisk market in pawning and transporting looted goods of all kinds, as opposed to just slaves.

    And as others have chimed in with regard to my earlier post, even if one could show that Jews made their first big killing in trafficking slaves, that leaves unanswered the question of why anyone should regard them as any more villainous than the dozens of other factions hawking wares that would today also be regarded as odious.

    “And as others have chimed in with regard to my earlier post, even if one could show that Jews made their first big killing in trafficking slaves, that leaves unanswered the question of why anyone should regard them as any more villainous than the dozens of other factions hawking wares that would today also be regarded as odious.”

    Uh, because they were the best at it outside of all of these other factions, plus, they managed to continue their cultural and intellectual practices, if not their very genetics, into the modern age. Isn’t it the case that what we are seeing today is a 2,000 year refinement of those very early activities that set the Jews on the path they are on today?

    Look, you can talk about Germans, or Balkans or Greeks or Armenians being a part of the early Roman slave trade and maybe they were. The problem is, what exactly was a German, a Balkan, or an Armenian during the Roman era? Heck, what was a Greek? These are all very different people from their modern counterparts. I doubt a modern Armenian could even recognize an ancient Roman Armenian.

    But Jewish traditions have continuity. They carry their nation within themselves. What they also carry is the accumulated wisdom and experience of those very early odious practices on which they build other successes, just like they carry on their religious and cultural traditions from their earliest days. It is this accumulated wisdom of chicanery, duplicity, illegality and ruthlessness that gets Jews into serious trouble with host populations.

    Gypsies, for example, carry on the very old tradition of thievery and kidnapping. Is thievery and kidnapping unique to Gypsies alone? Hardly. Is it still a good idea to have a lot of Gypsies around? No.

    Jews seem to pursue very high risk survival strategy. Success creates untold riches and power. Failure “boils away” a large chunk of the Jewish population. The pattern will continue into the future, if my theory has any predictive power.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "Look, you can talk about... Greeks or Armenians being a part of the early Roman slave trade and maybe they were...[but]... These are all very different people from their modern counterparts. I doubt a modern Armenian could even recognize an ancient Roman Armenian...But Jewish traditions have continuity."

    I don't regard pre-exilic temple-centered Jews as equivalent to rabbinical post-exilic Jews, the latter being one strain of Jewry that ultimately came to predominate the diaspora. If you assert that those two are markedly more similar than Roman and modern Armenians, the onus is on you show that. (I realize that for some people, Jews are Jews are Jews and nothing more needs to be said, but that is not very persuasive.) Likewise with the claim that Jewish wealth got kickstarted by caravans of Jewish slavers. It seems you're stringing together assertions about the mere existence of these caravans (which at first sight, do at least rise to the level of a plausible hypothesis) and then making very wild extrapolations with little or no evidence or consideration of historical context.

    But I will say this: if HBO or BBC makes their next historical spectacle on the picaresque adventures of slavetraders, pimps, and pushers caravanning behind a Roman legion, I'd at least want to watch the pilot episode. Maybe you can type up a treatment or a screenplay and try and get that optioned, though the Weinstein brothers will likely want you tone down the Jewish angle. Or maybe those Turks who did "Magnificent Century" will be more receptive.

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  139. @map
    If the Jews were not a mercantile minority in Roman times, then what were they doing to survive? They had no nation of their own and owned little to no land. There is no evidence of them being farmers, or tradesmen, or sailors, or peasants, or anything that you would associate a nation of people doing. If we ask the question, "what were the Romans doing?" we can see a robust and complicated society that provided a wide variety of activities to do. If we ask, "what were the Jews doing?" we have an enigma wrapped in a riddle. Yet, the existence of Romans and Jews as large, cohesive groups is without a doubt. So, what were the Jews doing to keep their families fed? Tearing pages out of the Torah?

    Just because you had "Gaulish, German and Belgian slaves" does not mean that Gauls, Germans and Belgians were enslaving these people. Slavery disappeared under the Empire and Julius Caesar's time would not have trusted any of these conquered people's to administer anything.

    The slander in all of this is not that Jews may have a very dark and sordid history. The slander is trying to maintain the fiction that the Jews are right and good everywhere and always. Nobody buys this. It is this rejection of absurd claims that is driving the narrative and commentary here, not anti-Semitism.

    Okay, but your “slave caravan” theory doesn’t actually have ancient evidence to support it. And it doesn’t sound like something that Jews, with their complicated religious rules and their tendency to irritate Roman military men, would be good at it compared to other groups.

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  140. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Matra
    Here are photos of two different events held last year to commemorate the founding of the SS Galicia Division in the west of Ukraine. These are “our” guys, the pro-western, pro-EU, pro-LBGT guys who are going to stick it to Putin.

    It was only ten years after the Holodomor. Can you really blame them for taking up arms against the USSR? Many thousands were slaughtered by the Soviets and today some Ukrainians honour their sacrifice much like today's Russians honour those who served mass murderer Stalin in the Red Army. A quick search will also turn up photos of Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine with Soviet flags. If you are going to attach every Nazi crime to today's Ukrainian nationalists along with pro-LBGT nonsense that few people in Central and Eastern Europe support then it is equally fair to attach the Holodomor and all the other crimes of the USSR to those on Putin's side.

    I agree with you entirely that it made perfect sense for Galicians and other western Ukrainians to side with the Germans against the Soviets but I brought up those photos from last year to make a different point. These SS Galicia commemorations are just part of a mountain of evidence that the “pro-western” folks now in power depend on a power base of actual, genuine neo-Nazis. So what? Well why it matters to me is the profound and irredeemable hypocrisy this shows in our western political class. We are supposed to cheer when they hound a 90-year old retired steelworker in Cleveland because he may have been in this SS Galicia unit but we’re also supposed to cheer when the proud heirs to this unit take over the parliament in Kiev? We’re supposed to fret and fuss and worry about whether any of our own patriotic and religious beliefs can pass the scrutiny of the Abe Foxman types but these guys in Ukraine get the stamp of approval? The EU insists that it must exist and grow in power to prevent another Hitler and yet these guys in Ukraine are their boys? That was my point.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    In the recent Ukrainian elections, the far right did very poorly. There are no doubt some neo-Nazis in Ukraine just as there are in Germany or the US but the idea that those who are opposed to Russian domination of Ukraine and who want to align it with the West are really just a bunch of Nazis is nothing but Putin propaganda. This may sell well to low information folks in Russian and E. Ukraine who get all their news from Russian television, but not to anyone objective.

    The Ukrainians do not have a long history as an independent nation and are somewhat short on positive historic role models. It's sort of slim pickin's for them, unfortunately. They were caught between the devil and the deep blue sea - you could side with Hitler or go with Stalin - hard to say who was worse. In America, lots of people in the South commemorate Robert E. Lee and other guys who fought for the principle that people should be able to own other people and sell them as commodities. To me that's beyond the pale, but some people consider them to be authentic regional heroes when judged by the standards of their time and not with 20/20 hindsight.

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  141. HA says:

    “These SS Galicia commemorations are just part of a mountain of evidence that the “pro-western” folks now in power depend on a power base of actual, genuine neo-Nazis.”

    No, you’re confusing “mountain of evidence” with “cherry-picked propaganda fed out by Moscow”. That is why you regard SS Galicia as more fundamental than the analogous right-wing kooks marching around Donetsk or the Kremlin.

    Fringe elements and power bases are two very different concepts. Look it up.

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    • Replies: @Chubby Ape
    No, you’re confusing “mountain of evidence” with “cherry-picked propaganda fed out by Moscow”.

    I found those images I posted by typing "SS Galicia Lviv" into a search engine. How does Moscow come into this? Don't say "RT told you about the SS Galicia Division", I knew about them back when Vladimir Putin was still just a guy working for the mayor of Saint Petersburg. I know it might seem like these are all just playing pieces on a board game or Klingons versus Romulans on TV but these are real historical events and political factions who'd exist even if the Americans had managed to put their guy in the Kremlin.

    Fringe elements and power bases are two very different concepts. Look it up.

    In a time of coups and civil war a "power base" is not the people who will vote for you but the people who will kill for you. Ukraine is currently in a civil war that began after the democratically elected President was driven out in a coup by far right street fighters. They have since gone on to form irregular units fighting in the east. In between, they took time to massacre around forty people in Odessa on May 2. Look it up.

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  142. HA says:
    @map
    "And as others have chimed in with regard to my earlier post, even if one could show that Jews made their first big killing in trafficking slaves, that leaves unanswered the question of why anyone should regard them as any more villainous than the dozens of other factions hawking wares that would today also be regarded as odious."

    Uh, because they were the best at it outside of all of these other factions, plus, they managed to continue their cultural and intellectual practices, if not their very genetics, into the modern age. Isn't it the case that what we are seeing today is a 2,000 year refinement of those very early activities that set the Jews on the path they are on today?

    Look, you can talk about Germans, or Balkans or Greeks or Armenians being a part of the early Roman slave trade and maybe they were. The problem is, what exactly was a German, a Balkan, or an Armenian during the Roman era? Heck, what was a Greek? These are all very different people from their modern counterparts. I doubt a modern Armenian could even recognize an ancient Roman Armenian.

    But Jewish traditions have continuity. They carry their nation within themselves. What they also carry is the accumulated wisdom and experience of those very early odious practices on which they build other successes, just like they carry on their religious and cultural traditions from their earliest days. It is this accumulated wisdom of chicanery, duplicity, illegality and ruthlessness that gets Jews into serious trouble with host populations.

    Gypsies, for example, carry on the very old tradition of thievery and kidnapping. Is thievery and kidnapping unique to Gypsies alone? Hardly. Is it still a good idea to have a lot of Gypsies around? No.

    Jews seem to pursue very high risk survival strategy. Success creates untold riches and power. Failure "boils away" a large chunk of the Jewish population. The pattern will continue into the future, if my theory has any predictive power.

    “Look, you can talk about… Greeks or Armenians being a part of the early Roman slave trade and maybe they were…[but]… These are all very different people from their modern counterparts. I doubt a modern Armenian could even recognize an ancient Roman Armenian…But Jewish traditions have continuity.”

    I don’t regard pre-exilic temple-centered Jews as equivalent to rabbinical post-exilic Jews, the latter being one strain of Jewry that ultimately came to predominate the diaspora. If you assert that those two are markedly more similar than Roman and modern Armenians, the onus is on you show that. (I realize that for some people, Jews are Jews are Jews and nothing more needs to be said, but that is not very persuasive.) Likewise with the claim that Jewish wealth got kickstarted by caravans of Jewish slavers. It seems you’re stringing together assertions about the mere existence of these caravans (which at first sight, do at least rise to the level of a plausible hypothesis) and then making very wild extrapolations with little or no evidence or consideration of historical context.

    But I will say this: if HBO or BBC makes their next historical spectacle on the picaresque adventures of slavetraders, pimps, and pushers caravanning behind a Roman legion, I’d at least want to watch the pilot episode. Maybe you can type up a treatment or a screenplay and try and get that optioned, though the Weinstein brothers will likely want you tone down the Jewish angle. Or maybe those Turks who did “Magnificent Century” will be more receptive.

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  143. Jack D says:
    @map
    "Why were Jews so keen on settling in Christian places where they were allowed to ‘own land’? Why not return to the Middle East? Or go to black Africa? I mean who stopped them?"

    The Jews settled in Christian lands because they were functionaries of the Ottoman Empire, helping the Ottomans run conquered territories. Remember, Jews speak lovingly of "cosmopolitan" Andalusia, where Muslims were the rulers, Jews were the administrators and Christians were the serfs.

    When Spain finally gained its freedom, the Jews had to scatter further away into Western Europe. They were merely useful to the Ottomans, not loved. They could not go back to the Middle East because Islam claims that Jews cried to corrupt Mohammed. So they took their ill-gotten gains from pillaging Spain and moved Westward.

    So they took their ill-gotten gains from pillaging Spain and moved Westward.

    Westward from Spain? To where, the Atlantic Ocean?

    After the Sephardic Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492 (without their wealth BTW), most did indeed go to other parts of the Ottoman empire – Morocco, Turkey, Syria, Greece, etc. – to the East and South, not the West. A few made it to the New World. The Ashkenazi Jews of E. Europe also moved EASTWARD over time – they started out in France, Germany, even England and moved east into Poland and Ukraine starting around 1000 yrs ago. The modern Jewish communities of Western Europe are descended from Ashkenazi Jews who moved back West mostly in the last 200 yrs. France has a Moroccan Jewish community that is very recent (post WWII).

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  144. Jack D says:
    @Lot
    Cochran says there was no indication that Jews were a mercantile minority in Roman times, and of course your anti-semite trolls here provide no citation at all for their endless nasty slanders. Nor is there indication Jews were especially involved with the transatlantic slave trade.

    The white slave trade in the middle ages was dominated by Crimean Tatars and North African Arabized pirates, with a large Greek and Balkan Muslim convert contingent.

    I've read something like 5000 pages worth of Roman history in the past decade, and I know of no statement attributing the slave trade to any particular ethnic group. There are scattered references to Gaulish, Belgian and German slaves.

    In my view, the most likely slave traders were many and diverse local Roman allies of the enslaved people, with a few Italian Roman auxiliaries supervising. In the case of Caesar's conquests, the allies were the Gaulish tribes who lived in modern NW Italy and SE France, who in Caesar's time were partly Romanized and mostly loyal allies. Conquered portions of Gaul were assigned to these allies, and as the people controlling the route from northern Gaul and Germania, and familiar with both Roman and barbarian customs and language, they would have been the natural slave traders.

    Finally, individual legionnaires and pro-counsels, at the end of their service in the provinces, would have been the other natural group to bring slaves from remote areas and sell them along their route home. War back then had a strong "take what you can pillage" aspect, and fresh slaves collected after sacking a barbarian town could have been sold to whoever was on his way back to Italy at the time.

    In contemporary ancient accounts, the Jews are never mentioned as being particularly shrewd or mercantile or anything like that. The Jews who came from the Arab world (of which Israel has many) to this day do not show particularly high intelligence or flair for business. This whole idea of Jewish slave traders in the Roman Empire is some kind of imaginary retcon to fit an anti-Semitic narrative – like Watto the slave trader with the Yiddish accent in Star Wars. Did the imaginary Jewish slave traders in ancient Rome also speak w. Yiddish accents?

    What we think of as special Jewish intelligence/shrewdness is really Ashkenazi (E. European) Jewish intelligence, which has only been around for the last 1000 years or so (and really did not begin to make an impact on the broader culture until the Enlightenment).

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  145. Jack D says:
    @map
    If the Jews were not a mercantile minority in Roman times, then what were they doing to survive? They had no nation of their own and owned little to no land. There is no evidence of them being farmers, or tradesmen, or sailors, or peasants, or anything that you would associate a nation of people doing. If we ask the question, "what were the Romans doing?" we can see a robust and complicated society that provided a wide variety of activities to do. If we ask, "what were the Jews doing?" we have an enigma wrapped in a riddle. Yet, the existence of Romans and Jews as large, cohesive groups is without a doubt. So, what were the Jews doing to keep their families fed? Tearing pages out of the Torah?

    Just because you had "Gaulish, German and Belgian slaves" does not mean that Gauls, Germans and Belgians were enslaving these people. Slavery disappeared under the Empire and Julius Caesar's time would not have trusted any of these conquered people's to administer anything.

    The slander in all of this is not that Jews may have a very dark and sordid history. The slander is trying to maintain the fiction that the Jews are right and good everywhere and always. Nobody buys this. It is this rejection of absurd claims that is driving the narrative and commentary here, not anti-Semitism.

    Being mercantile and being a slave trader are two different things, especially to modern eyes (at the time, slaves would have been seen as just another commodity). Also, “mercantile” and “farmer” are not the only possible occupations – ancient Rome had a well developed economy and there were all sorts of occupations – toga makers and jewelers and sandal makers, etc. Jews were a small minority in Rome, little mentioned in ancient accounts and we don’t have a good sense of what they did but it could have easily involved other occupations. Even when it comes to “mercantile” occupations, the slave trade was not the only one or even the most important. There was a major trade in grain across the Mediterranean – Rome did not grow enough of its own. They brought in marble and wild animals for the Coliseum, and olive oil and garum (fish sauce) and salt and spices and silk and all sorts of commodities. For all we know (since the records are so scant) maybe the Jews were more concentrated in one kind of trade than another – maybe they specialized in grain and the Armenians did slaves and the Phoenicians did olive oil, just like nowadays Indians do gas stations and Koreans do dry cleaners.

    You raise some sort of straw man argument that the Jews were COMPLETELY uninvolved in the slave trade – I don’t know anyone who has actually said that (though there is little evidence that they were). But in modern terms, “slave trader” = “bad person” so people who try to connect the Jews to the slave trade are just trying to paint them in a negative light for their own reasons.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Jack,

    Oh yes, the Jews were a minority in Rome except for the prominent Jewish historical figures that we have that somehow nevertheless became notable, to include: Nero, who converted for some odd reason (I hear that Roman Emperors made it a habit to convert to religions without influence), and Josephus.

    There is no credible argument that counters that the Jews played a substantial role in various slave trade's across history, to include the American slave trade. A modern notable slave trade, that the Jews are well documented to be neck deep in, is the sex slave trade that imports tens of thousands of Eastern European girls to Israel (and likely elsewhere) on an annual basis. It's funny how the native Scandinavians don't indulge in the same practice.

    Last, if asserting that the Jews played a role in slave trade's is ostensibly to paint Jews in a bad light for other reasons, then does that logic similarly apply to "whites"? Or are Jews magically special in their ability to deflect this particular criticism? Keep in mind that "whites" didn't really exist before the 20th century, and instead we had Germans, Brits, Irish, Poles, Russians, Scandinavians, and others that are, somehow, today all responsible for the slave trade because they have been reclassified as monolithically "white".
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  146. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous
    I agree with you entirely that it made perfect sense for Galicians and other western Ukrainians to side with the Germans against the Soviets but I brought up those photos from last year to make a different point. These SS Galicia commemorations are just part of a mountain of evidence that the "pro-western" folks now in power depend on a power base of actual, genuine neo-Nazis. So what? Well why it matters to me is the profound and irredeemable hypocrisy this shows in our western political class. We are supposed to cheer when they hound a 90-year old retired steelworker in Cleveland because he may have been in this SS Galicia unit but we're also supposed to cheer when the proud heirs to this unit take over the parliament in Kiev? We're supposed to fret and fuss and worry about whether any of our own patriotic and religious beliefs can pass the scrutiny of the Abe Foxman types but these guys in Ukraine get the stamp of approval? The EU insists that it must exist and grow in power to prevent another Hitler and yet these guys in Ukraine are their boys? That was my point.

    In the recent Ukrainian elections, the far right did very poorly. There are no doubt some neo-Nazis in Ukraine just as there are in Germany or the US but the idea that those who are opposed to Russian domination of Ukraine and who want to align it with the West are really just a bunch of Nazis is nothing but Putin propaganda. This may sell well to low information folks in Russian and E. Ukraine who get all their news from Russian television, but not to anyone objective.

    The Ukrainians do not have a long history as an independent nation and are somewhat short on positive historic role models. It’s sort of slim pickin’s for them, unfortunately. They were caught between the devil and the deep blue sea – you could side with Hitler or go with Stalin – hard to say who was worse. In America, lots of people in the South commemorate Robert E. Lee and other guys who fought for the principle that people should be able to own other people and sell them as commodities. To me that’s beyond the pale, but some people consider them to be authentic regional heroes when judged by the standards of their time and not with 20/20 hindsight.

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  147. @HA
    "These SS Galicia commemorations are just part of a mountain of evidence that the “pro-western” folks now in power depend on a power base of actual, genuine neo-Nazis."

    No, you're confusing "mountain of evidence" with "cherry-picked propaganda fed out by Moscow". That is why you regard SS Galicia as more fundamental than the analogous right-wing kooks marching around Donetsk or the Kremlin.

    Fringe elements and power bases are two very different concepts. Look it up.

    No, you’re confusing “mountain of evidence” with “cherry-picked propaganda fed out by Moscow”.

    I found those images I posted by typing “SS Galicia Lviv” into a search engine. How does Moscow come into this? Don’t say “RT told you about the SS Galicia Division”, I knew about them back when Vladimir Putin was still just a guy working for the mayor of Saint Petersburg. I know it might seem like these are all just playing pieces on a board game or Klingons versus Romulans on TV but these are real historical events and political factions who’d exist even if the Americans had managed to put their guy in the Kremlin.

    Fringe elements and power bases are two very different concepts. Look it up.

    In a time of coups and civil war a “power base” is not the people who will vote for you but the people who will kill for you. Ukraine is currently in a civil war that began after the democratically elected President was driven out in a coup by far right street fighters. They have since gone on to form irregular units fighting in the east. In between, they took time to massacre around forty people in Odessa on May 2. Look it up.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "I found those images I posted by typing “SS Galicia Lviv” into a search engine. How does Moscow come into this?"

    Oh, my sides! The comedy never stops around here! Did you actually type that with a straight face?

    In any case, to reiterate, cherry-picking anecdotes about Ukrainian fascists (not to mention making blatantly biased commends about the particulars of the Odessa clashes) is about as convincing as the copious lists the SPLC compiles in order to convince us that the power base of opposition to Obama is a seething mass of unreconstructed and violent Klansmen, or the like.

    If that's too hard for you to understand, perhaps you should find a new fetish besides "SS Galicians" to obsess about. Maybe gladiator movies, or Turkish prisons.

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  148. HA says:
    @Chubby Ape
    No, you’re confusing “mountain of evidence” with “cherry-picked propaganda fed out by Moscow”.

    I found those images I posted by typing "SS Galicia Lviv" into a search engine. How does Moscow come into this? Don't say "RT told you about the SS Galicia Division", I knew about them back when Vladimir Putin was still just a guy working for the mayor of Saint Petersburg. I know it might seem like these are all just playing pieces on a board game or Klingons versus Romulans on TV but these are real historical events and political factions who'd exist even if the Americans had managed to put their guy in the Kremlin.

    Fringe elements and power bases are two very different concepts. Look it up.

    In a time of coups and civil war a "power base" is not the people who will vote for you but the people who will kill for you. Ukraine is currently in a civil war that began after the democratically elected President was driven out in a coup by far right street fighters. They have since gone on to form irregular units fighting in the east. In between, they took time to massacre around forty people in Odessa on May 2. Look it up.

    “I found those images I posted by typing “SS Galicia Lviv” into a search engine. How does Moscow come into this?”

    Oh, my sides! The comedy never stops around here! Did you actually type that with a straight face?

    In any case, to reiterate, cherry-picking anecdotes about Ukrainian fascists (not to mention making blatantly biased commends about the particulars of the Odessa clashes) is about as convincing as the copious lists the SPLC compiles in order to convince us that the power base of opposition to Obama is a seething mass of unreconstructed and violent Klansmen, or the like.

    If that’s too hard for you to understand, perhaps you should find a new fetish besides “SS Galicians” to obsess about. Maybe gladiator movies, or Turkish prisons.

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  149. John says:
    @Anonymous
    Azeri millionaires work together to make more azeri millionaires. Same with most tribes in this world.

    Jewish millionaires however are most often millionaires DESPITE all of the other Jewish millionaires out there.

    I won't waste any more second arguing this point that has zero chance of convincing anyone.

    For an IQ and Creativity obsessed bunch, all logic is tossed aside when it comes to the statistics of Jewish success.

    Done talking to your collective gasses.

    It’s not that logic is tossed out the window. It’s that the total high IQ individuals statistics are well on the side of the orders of magnitude greater gentile population, even with one-standard deviation removed average intelligence (not quite one standard deviation, but I’m allowing the extra 5 points to slide for the sake of argument).

    Also, your logic doesn’t hold when gentiles are politically prohibited from openly co-operating along ethnic lines and Jews have the media and government’s de facto permission to openly co-operate along ethnic lines. Celebrating Jews for imagined superior success is like celebrating winning a race when your opponent’s legs are cuffed.

    Your admonishment for our supposed lack of logic is insulting in its lack of obvious logic.

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  150. John says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Who are the biggest racists on the planet?
     
    Probably the North Koreans, if we are being perfectly honest. The more succesful Jewish subgroups have no real problem with intermarrying as long as it brings good genes into the tribe.

    Demonstrably untrue. I’d be interested in your list of significant subgroups that intermarry without issue.

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  151. John says:
    @Jack D
    In what sense are Israel's nukes "illegal"? Can you point to a particular treaty or UN Resolution? If they are "illegal" why are there no UN sanctions on Israel?

    PS - how do you know it's 300 - have you counted them?

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity? After all, it's not like they have oil or anything that could be used to generate electricity without nuclear power. How stupid do you think we are?

    I can't imagine why Israel would be anti-Iran. It couldn't be because their leaders keep threatening to destroy Israel and sponsor Hezbollah and Hamas.

    Isreal’s undeclared nuclear arsenal, and the USA’s shielding of Israel’s nuclear weapons program, amounts to a living lie and a double standard that undermines the ability of the USA to credibly critique the nuclear weapons aspirations of other nations and limits its functional ability to control the spread of nuclear arsenals worldwide. It undermines the credibility of the classification system when that system willfully ignores the known existence of a nuclear arsenal in the middle east. Thereofre, Israel’s nuclear arsenal has a negative effect on regional stability via undermining the international nuclear weapons monitoring and control system.

    Protection of Israel’s open flouting of modern western standards of nuclear accountability also undermines the outwardly progressive social stance of Jews in the diaspora. Maintaining the pretense that Israel and diaspora Jews are two separate entities to be critiqued independently no longer has any sway in the west. If it did, AIPAC would crumble and Israel wouldn’t think twice about Jonathan Pollard; to use two obvious examples of the strong link. Neither is the case.

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  152. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Being mercantile and being a slave trader are two different things, especially to modern eyes (at the time, slaves would have been seen as just another commodity). Also, "mercantile" and "farmer" are not the only possible occupations - ancient Rome had a well developed economy and there were all sorts of occupations - toga makers and jewelers and sandal makers, etc. Jews were a small minority in Rome, little mentioned in ancient accounts and we don't have a good sense of what they did but it could have easily involved other occupations. Even when it comes to "mercantile" occupations, the slave trade was not the only one or even the most important. There was a major trade in grain across the Mediterranean - Rome did not grow enough of its own. They brought in marble and wild animals for the Coliseum, and olive oil and garum (fish sauce) and salt and spices and silk and all sorts of commodities. For all we know (since the records are so scant) maybe the Jews were more concentrated in one kind of trade than another - maybe they specialized in grain and the Armenians did slaves and the Phoenicians did olive oil, just like nowadays Indians do gas stations and Koreans do dry cleaners.

    You raise some sort of straw man argument that the Jews were COMPLETELY uninvolved in the slave trade - I don't know anyone who has actually said that (though there is little evidence that they were). But in modern terms, "slave trader" = "bad person" so people who try to connect the Jews to the slave trade are just trying to paint them in a negative light for their own reasons.

    Jack,

    Oh yes, the Jews were a minority in Rome except for the prominent Jewish historical figures that we have that somehow nevertheless became notable, to include: Nero, who converted for some odd reason (I hear that Roman Emperors made it a habit to convert to religions without influence), and Josephus.

    There is no credible argument that counters that the Jews played a substantial role in various slave trade’s across history, to include the American slave trade. A modern notable slave trade, that the Jews are well documented to be neck deep in, is the sex slave trade that imports tens of thousands of Eastern European girls to Israel (and likely elsewhere) on an annual basis. It’s funny how the native Scandinavians don’t indulge in the same practice.

    Last, if asserting that the Jews played a role in slave trade’s is ostensibly to paint Jews in a bad light for other reasons, then does that logic similarly apply to “whites”? Or are Jews magically special in their ability to deflect this particular criticism? Keep in mind that “whites” didn’t really exist before the 20th century, and instead we had Germans, Brits, Irish, Poles, Russians, Scandinavians, and others that are, somehow, today all responsible for the slave trade because they have been reclassified as monolithically “white”.

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    Okay, but you still haven't come up with any evidence for your Jewish slave caravans following the Roman legions theory.
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  153. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Stalin didn't start out anti-Semitic either, but by the time of his death he was planning to suppress the Jews and had already begun working on it - arresting Jewish doctors, having the Yiddish actor Mikhoels assassinated, etc.

    When you are a dictator with absolute power, no one is safe. Everyone in Russia today, Jewish oligarchs included, is only a stroke of Putin's pen away from having all their assets confiscated or worse. Jews by their nature are not only intelligent but highly verbal (this makes them different from the almost equally intelligent but quieter Asians) - these are just the kind of people who sooner or later will be a thorn in the side of a dictator. Ask Khodorkovsky.

    There is a stereotype of Russians as alcoholic anti-Semites but not every Russian fits that stereotype. Putin is not a drinker either. Putin fits another stereotype - that of a highly disciplined KGB agent, dedicated to his cause (the triumph of Soviet power). Such a person is not going to permit personal weaknesses - a fondness for alcohol, ethnic favoritism, etc. to get in his way. Putin drank the Soviet Kool-aid as a child and part of that (on paper, if not in reality) was that the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic enterprise, much like the US. Russian was its language (just as English is America's) but you didn't have to BE ethnic Russian to be dedicated to the Soviet cause, just as you don't have to be of English heritage to be a patriotic American .

    I think Steve is raising a straw man here. I haven't really heard anyone say that we should oppose Putin because he is an anti-Semite. Show me one source that has said that? (That Putin is anti-Israel because he is pro-Iran is true and doesn't count.) That still leaves ample other reasons not to like him.

    Jack,

    How about when the dictator is the leader of a theocracy? I assume that you also meant that no one is safe in a dictatorial theocracy. I’d beg to differ. I’d imagine that the Jews in Israel are fairly safe under the potent legal power of the Orthodoxy. Via that illustration, we can notice that the average Russian is plenty safe under a dictatorial government of same ethnicity. The danger comes when a country is ruled by an establishment that has interests inimical to the majority. That’s obvious to everyone here except, perhaps, a Jewish person attempting to spin the logic that works against him into half-truths that work for him. The unfortunate thing is that such attempts are often, by their nature, vulnerable to the tedious task of debunking them. How forever tedious it is to debate a lying Jewish person.

    Your Jewish/Asian IQ fetish is also a moot point, and tired rhetoric. Jews haven’t been able to run a first world country on their own in the history of the world, to include modern Israel, and the Asians aren’t any better save the Japanese. Holding the Jews and Asians up to be somehow superior doesn’t jive with observable reality. Please masturbate to your paper Jewish/Asian IQ fetish over a dimly lit table in your own country. That is, of course, unless you can’t live without us.

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  154. John says:
    @Lot

    Do you really think that Iran has a nuclear program solely because they want to generate electricity?
     
    Iran has a very low birthrate and is surrounded by hostile states, two of which have nukes. 30 years ago it was invaded by Iraq, which used chemical weapons against it. Their desire for nukes is understandable and no threat to the United States.

    You can verify that Israel has no nukes pointed at the USA? I’d bet that it has one or two. It certainly has them pointed to Europe, as they have admitted, and American conservative whites tend to feel strongly about the continued existence of our European cousins.

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  155. @Anonymous
    Jack,

    Oh yes, the Jews were a minority in Rome except for the prominent Jewish historical figures that we have that somehow nevertheless became notable, to include: Nero, who converted for some odd reason (I hear that Roman Emperors made it a habit to convert to religions without influence), and Josephus.

    There is no credible argument that counters that the Jews played a substantial role in various slave trade's across history, to include the American slave trade. A modern notable slave trade, that the Jews are well documented to be neck deep in, is the sex slave trade that imports tens of thousands of Eastern European girls to Israel (and likely elsewhere) on an annual basis. It's funny how the native Scandinavians don't indulge in the same practice.

    Last, if asserting that the Jews played a role in slave trade's is ostensibly to paint Jews in a bad light for other reasons, then does that logic similarly apply to "whites"? Or are Jews magically special in their ability to deflect this particular criticism? Keep in mind that "whites" didn't really exist before the 20th century, and instead we had Germans, Brits, Irish, Poles, Russians, Scandinavians, and others that are, somehow, today all responsible for the slave trade because they have been reclassified as monolithically "white".

    Okay, but you still haven’t come up with any evidence for your Jewish slave caravans following the Roman legions theory.

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  156. John says:
    @Lot
    I go even further than Larison with Russia-pacifism. Taking Crimea was completely justified given its long history as part of Russia and the fact the vast majority of the population identifies as Russia and wanted to be part of Russia. If Putin wants to take any other contiguous parts of Ukraine that fit this bill, we should let him.

    Russia shows remarkable restraint in response to our evil foreign policy establishment's constant provocations, including training the militaries of hostile governments right on its border. Imagine if Russia encouraged Mexican nationalists to attack the various mostly-American retirement communities dotting the Baja coastline, or funded a successful overthrow of the Canadian government. The only place I'd draw the line is the Baltic states, who have the desire and ability to become normal members of Western Europe. But the Caucuses, Belarus, Central Asia, Mongolia, and Moldova? Russia ought to have a free hand managing those backward and poorly-run places where America and Western Europe have no interest.

    While the mildly antisemetic, homophobic, and illiberal elements of Russian culture are unfortunate, they are on the decline due to globalization and secularization, and they are none of our business either way.

    You’re in the wrong comments section if you expect to find any lamentation of Russia’s resistance to further liberalism. You won’t find much agreement in celebrating an increase in globalization and secularization either. It is notable that you grouped antisemitic in with homophobic and illiberal. Is Israel to be the only nation that is allowed to cultivate a strong streak of (ethnocentric) conservatism? Put differently, is every other country to be secularized and liberalized just so the Jews can feel comfortable there?

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