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Pitbulls Account for Half of Dog Fatalities
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Pitbulls & Tattoos

According to a report by Merritt Clifton (via Rosalind Arden), pitbulls accounted for 295 of 593 human fatalities due to dogs between 1982-2014, although only making up 6.7% of dogs. But that’s still the second most popular breed, behind only labrador mixes. My observation from walking down the sidewalk is that pitbulls are much more prevalent today in Los Angeles than a half century ago, when they were only vaguely heard of.

In contrast, labradors and lab mixes account for 11.5% of dogs, and only 4 human deaths.

German shepherds, an aggressive/protective breed, are in-between with 15 fatalities and 3.7% of dogs.

Pitbulls, which aren’t particularly big, aren’t the most dangerous dog per capita. The perro de presa canario, a 100+ pound beast, killed 18 people despite being only 0.02% of dogs for sale or adoption. Both are in the molosser class.

Also, wolfish dogs, such as akita, huskies, and wolf-hybrids are pretty scary, as are chows, a wolfish-molosser cross.

Rottweilers are about as dangerous per capita as pit bulls. Dobermans, however, which were notorious when I was a child as WWII guard dogs, have gotten less dangerous: my recollection is that Doberman owners have been breeding for safety while rottweiler owners have been breeding their dogs to be scary.

It would seem like pit bulls could, like dobermans, be bred to keep their good qualities, while breeding out their bad qualities, like a tendency to kill people. But breeding as a hobby or career doesn’t seem to attract as many people with pro-social tendencies as it did in the past, when, for example, Charles Darwin bred pigeons.

It could be that our culture has largely bred out from its more gentlemanly ranks the ruthlessness that helps one be a good breeder, which might explain why dog-breeding today is so much less productive than in the 19th century.

P.S., here is a 2006 Malcolm Gladwell article in The New Yorker on why racial profiling is as bad as profiling pit bulls: “TROUBLEMAKERS: What pit bulls can teach us about profiling.”

 
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  1. That’s breedist.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    We need dem programs,these dogs are the future,they need job training and anger management!
  2. I think you meant Perro de presa canario (Spanish for Canaries – for the Canary islands – Hunting dog)

  3. There were Chow dogs everywhere when I was a kid, but I rarely see them today. Pretty much every every kid I knew went through the experience of being pinned in a corner by a neighbor’s unruly chow dog after school once or twice.

  4. So Presas kill 2,582 times more per capita than labs.

    For some extreme human disparities, blacks in Chicago were 45 times more likely to be arrested for burglary than Asians. In New York City, blacks were 98 times more likely to be arrested than whites for “shooting.” Baltimore residents commit murder at 71 times the rate of Japanese. Baltimoreans, however, are peaceful compared to Central Americans, who have several cities with more than 3 times the Baltimore murder rate (and 200x times the Japanese rate).

    From 1986 to 2012, 676,776 immigrants from murder champion El Salvador came to the United States. The country has a population of 6.3 million, indicating the United States imported about 11% of murder-champion El Salvador’s population.

    During the same period, 172,000 Japanese immigrated to the United States, meaning the United States imported 0.14% of Japan’s population of 127 million. In summary, a Salvadorean is about 200 fold more likely to murder someone than a Japanese, and a Salvadorean is also about 80 fold more likely to become an immigrant to the United States.

    Murder-champion El Salvador is one of several wonderful countries full of great people that get special immigration treatment called “Temporary Protected Status.” Some of those other countries are Haiti, Honduras, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, and South Sudan. People from TPS countries can come illegally and receive work permits, and are not subject to deportation. The “temporary” part of TPS is kind of a joke. Honduras has been on the TPS list since 1998. Resident of Japan do not get these privileges, and often have to deal with a lot of red tape before they can work in the United States.

  5. Gee, it’s almost as if certain subgroups of a species can have different evolutionary histories, and therefore different genetically encoded behaviours. *Brain-chip buzzes* I mean, I blame systemic structures of oppression against pitbulls and labrador-privilege. No other explanation is possible.

    I’ve always found it amusing when middle class blue-pillers in my own homeland go on like raving Himmlerites about purity of the line and blood etc. when discussing their expensive inbred animals, but are quite incapable of applying the same line of thought to, well I’ll leave it there 😉

    I have a 2 year old collie-lab mix. Everyone who doesn’t should be jealous 🙂

  6. Only idiots own pit bulls. No exceptions.

    • Replies: @neon2
    And both they and the pit bulls should be bred out of existence.
    , @Discard
    Nonsense. Mine was sweet tempered. I found her outside a convenience store at 3:00 AM. I bought her some lunchmeat, and when I opened it, I could see that she was harmless, even though she was starving and her ribs were sticking out. I let her take it from my hand, which she did very gently, and brought her home. She never had a problem at the dog park, did not even have a beef with neighborhood cats. She was good with groups of children too.

    A vicious dog is usually a sign of a vicious owner. The dogs are usually salvageable.
  7. From my experience, ownership of dangerous pitbulls is one of the few areas in which the hackneyed argument of whiny liberals is actually true:

    The trashy whites are just as bad as the ghetto blacks.

    • Replies: @anon
    Pitbulls ~ local crime rate
    , @RaceRealist88
    It comes down to IQ.
  8. Considering that many pit bulls are poorly trained, socialized, and encouraged to be aggressive, to the extent they receive any attention at all – just like their owners – this isn’t at all surprising When I lived in a nearly all-black DC neighborhood, with a single exception it was the only breed of dog any of the black neighborhood residents owned. They were mostly left in the yard by themselves most of the time unless taken for a stroll around the area to show off, and I don’t recall any being able to follow even rudimentary commands like “sit” or “heel.”

    Some people argue that they aren’t really any worse than other breeds and perhaps that’s true if they have responsible owners, but in my observations they are often owned by people who don’t value them as companions but as accessories to their gangsta image.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    Funny how none of my mother's mixed breed dogs ever needed to be trained, socialized, encouraged or otherwise persuaded not to tear into human flesh unprovoked.
    , @ATX Hipster
    At an animal shelter in a very black town in North Carolina, I was told they got about 2 dozen pit bulls each week from fighting rings being broken up.
    , @Anonymous
    No, that's not true. The idiot hipster pitbull owners these days love to make this argument, but it's not true. It's precisely because they're so unpredictable even if raised well and comfortably that makes them so dangerous. Even if well treated and pampered, they can lash out violently. That's why they're more dangerous than most dogs, which have much more predictable behavior patterns.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    It's in their DNA for centuries, even going back to the Romans. That's what they were bred for, to literally fight and potentially kill a BULL, in a PIT. Anything with the word "Bull" in the breed's name tells the story.

    Dr. Stanley Coren, a noted dog expert, traced the various main breeds. Pit Bulls, like Akitas, Dobermans, Rottweilers, etc. were the guard dogs category/group. They were bred for a specific purpose only: To kill intruders, invaders, or to fight and kill in the ring for dog killing. Betting on dog fights goes back to Roman times and was quite popular in England during the Middle Ages. King James I was quite an avid watcher of dogfights. Allegedly one bull type dog was said to have fought vs a lion and "won" in that he did't die and drew blood. The Puritans frowned on this type of barbaric cruelty vs animals in general but the only concession they received from James was the promise to ban all dogfighting on Sundays. But usually these dogs were bred specifically to fight vs other dogs or other prey and kill them in the ring (or pit). Actually people like Michael Vick and others who profited off of dogfighting can lay claim to history, since the types of dogs they usually choose to fight in the rings are doing the work of their bloodline ancestors of yore.

    And, which dogs do you think these pits "train" on before they step into the ring? Usually smaller weaker dogs that are stolen by various operators of illegal dog fights.

    They are like assassins. They are killers because its in their DNA and not something so easily bred out of if you keep the bloodlines pure.

  9. Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don’t train it to be mean it won’t be. I guess that’s kind of the point though.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    There seems to be a steady trickle of stories where the owner doesn't treat the dog Micheal Vick style, and she (it's usually a woman for some reason) trips or falls and the pitbull switches to ATTACK MODE. "The dog was always so nice, a beloved member of the family."
    , @YIH
    It isn't a matter of how ''mean'' or not a pitbull is. It's their strength, physically they are the most muscular and strongest breed of dog. In fact, the name itself came from the practice of 'bull baiting' where such dogs fought with adult bulls. When bull baiting was outlawed, fighting switched to dog-on-dog, the only breeds that could hold their own against pits were chows, rottweilers, and of course, other pits/pit mixes.
    ''Pitbulls, which aren’t particularly big'' is a bit in error, they are considered large dogs and their weight (full blood pit) can range from about 60-100 lbs. They have shorter legs than other large breeds, and a 'stocky' build.
    Most of the pit-related deaths are of children, kids abuse/mistreat them and the dog reacts to what it perceives as an attack as any dog would. The difference is the dog is stronger than the child and often outweighs it as well. The other problem is while ''they lock their jaws'' is a myth they do have a lot of jaw strength and they were bred to hold on to whatever they bite down on.
    The popularity is due to the 'ghetto' image (illegal fights are not unusual, google Michael Vick) and the fact that it's difficult for an adult to fight them off if attacked.
    A sad side effect of the trend is cops will routinely shoot any dog they come across - no matter what size or threat.
    , @Threecranes
    I doubt that many pit bull owners take the trouble to "train" the dog at all.

    And (in response to Steve's query above) I doubt that many take the trouble to selectively "breed" the dog, or have intelligence and foresight to carry out any operation the results of which are not seen for generations.

    In my experience, which has included having my dog mauled on a public street by a neighbor's pit bull, the owners are drug dealers or society's discontents who want a guard dog to alert them to strangers and more especially the Law. Owning a pit bull is a badge or mark of membership for them.

    When my dog was attacked by an unrestrained pit bull my wife pepper sprayed it (which caused it to release its death grip on my dog's neck) simultaneously I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull's head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. Luckily, the owner with kids in tow had showed up by then and managed to subdue it. Ever since then I have carried my legally licensed concealed pistol when walking the dog. Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot. This attack wasn't the first. The first time, my dog bolted in retreat and jerked my wife backward so that she fell hindmost into a ditch. The police are indifferent. There is no law against a dog killing another dog in my state. To settle, an aggrieved owner must pursue justice on their own initiative through civil courts. Only if the dog bites you do the police take action.

  10. I don’t know much about pits or dogs in general but a lot of people say all pits can be raised to be nice. Of course the type of person to get a pit bull tends to not be the type of person concerned about having a friendly dog.

  11. It’s my sense that a lot of the people who have pitbulls have them as a sort of quasi-legal weapon they can bring with them in public (It could be my imagination, but it seems like I see a lot more people walking them in urban areas in states with dick-ish gun laws, or look like they could be a convicted felon (or both)).

    • Replies: @Gargamel
    Bingo. People own 'dangerous' dogs for the same reason they own guns - personal and household defense. If you're not allowed to own a gun a dog is a pretty good substitute.
  12. I’ve known a few of the hippie or tender-hearted girls who are all into pit bulls – all big on “rescue” with anti-breed-discrimination bumper stickers and stuff. Good people for the most bit, though I suppose it does make the “stigmatized minorities as accessory pets” thing a bit literal.

    I look at the pictures of them with their dogs sometimes though and I’m thinking these dogs don’t really look like the same ones I remember in the ‘90s watching COPS, or in the neighbors’ yard when we visited my Navy uncle in San Diego. Now some of that must be training and feeding them as dopey couch lumps vs. wiry killing machines, but what if some of that’s breeding them as dopey couch lumps?

    I can’t help wonder if the dogs they’re cuddling with and the dogs out there messing people up might effectively be separate species – the pit fighters, and then the cuddlers descended from the “pit” variant tame enough to be adopted out instead of destroyed, and then tame enough to be bred instead of abandoned… only the “animal rescue” subculture doesn’t have the breeding tradition or cultural authority of “fanciers” or show breeders to declare a new breed, or the ideological inclination to think to.

    These rescuers really are a new thing over and above your SPCA types of yore – pushing for no-kill shelters or using their homes as shelter annexes, effective pet hoarding with a veneer of preparing them for their “forever home”. I got a house a bit ago and it’s more trouble than it should be finding a kitten to adopt because I’d like to raise it from early on to bond, only all these types swoop in to “foster” them through their most kittenish stages to “acclimate them to humans”. Little ridiculous.

  13. The question we need to ask is why do pit bulls act aggressively at a higher rate? Also what have we as a society made them do to act lie that?

    • Replies: @Oldeguy
    America will continue have this tragic carnage until:

    1) it finally owns up to its centuries long oppression and degradation of pit bulls.

    2) Abolishes every disgraceful form of institutional Breedism ( e. g. denial of or higher rates for Homeowners Insurance for Pit Bull households ) that blights this nation founded on equality for all.

    3) Require that Labradors be required to attend Labrador Privilege Awareness training sessions.

    4) Finally have sufficient decency to address the national disgrace of Pit Bull over-incarceration in the nation's Dog pounds!

    5) And have sufficient honesty and humility to admit that The War On Bites was Breedist motivated and has been a spectacular failure.
  14. @SFG
    Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don't train it to be mean it won't be. I guess that's kind of the point though.

    There seems to be a steady trickle of stories where the owner doesn’t treat the dog Micheal Vick style, and she (it’s usually a woman for some reason) trips or falls and the pitbull switches to ATTACK MODE. “The dog was always so nice, a beloved member of the family.”

    • Replies: @Anonym
    This is not surprising. For some reason, most straight women and especially nurturing type women do not have what it takes to make a dog know its place in the home. The only man who would not naturally understand physical pecking orders would be someone who was home-schooled.

    A dog that thinks it is the boss, or does not know it is going to get a severe "correction" the moment it looks the wrong way at your kids, is as dangerous as a loaded weapon. The warning signs are predictable if you know what to look for as well. The problem is, a lot of people don't. That dog that is growling as your kids try and take its toy away? Serious dominance hierarchy problems.

    This is more going to be a problem with naturally dominant breeds of dogs. And with such dogs, they will not know to obey properly until you start controlling their life and issuing corrections that are strong enough to cause a yelp. Of course, doing so is going to cause anyone mildly SJWish in nature to be triggered. They anthropomorphize the dog, and do not try and understand the dog on its own merits.

    Unfortunately a log of (most?) dog schools don't seem to teach the pack structure thing, and they try and do everything with positive training and with limp-wristed negative training.

    By and large women, especially city women don't understand "tough love" and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.

    , @Murray
    When my son was a toddler, he got knocked over by an extremely affectionate pit bull who stood astride him while he giggled on the ground. On one level, it was a charming scene, and no harm came to him, but you can bet that I got right in there to extricate him. He looked an awful lot like prey at that moment, and it would have been a nightmare if her kill switch had flipped at that moment.

    Here in Far North Portlandia, there are tons of pit bull blends in shelters, and we're a very SWPL town, so the ones I've met tend to be friendly and well-socialized. But the kill switch is always in the back of my mind.
    , @rtnl070818
    Seems every one of those articles contains a quote by one of the authorities about how it's not the breed but the owners. There must be a very small margin for error with Pitbulls. I think it would be next to impossible to make my dog vicious like that,
  15. @SFG
    Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don't train it to be mean it won't be. I guess that's kind of the point though.

    It isn’t a matter of how ”mean” or not a pitbull is. It’s their strength, physically they are the most muscular and strongest breed of dog. In fact, the name itself came from the practice of ‘bull baiting’ where such dogs fought with adult bulls. When bull baiting was outlawed, fighting switched to dog-on-dog, the only breeds that could hold their own against pits were chows, rottweilers, and of course, other pits/pit mixes.
    ”Pitbulls, which aren’t particularly big” is a bit in error, they are considered large dogs and their weight (full blood pit) can range from about 60-100 lbs. They have shorter legs than other large breeds, and a ‘stocky’ build.
    Most of the pit-related deaths are of children, kids abuse/mistreat them and the dog reacts to what it perceives as an attack as any dog would. The difference is the dog is stronger than the child and often outweighs it as well. The other problem is while ”they lock their jaws” is a myth they do have a lot of jaw strength and they were bred to hold on to whatever they bite down on.
    The popularity is due to the ‘ghetto’ image (illegal fights are not unusual, google Michael Vick) and the fact that it’s difficult for an adult to fight them off if attacked.
    A sad side effect of the trend is cops will routinely shoot any dog they come across – no matter what size or threat.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Pretty much all dog fatalities come from sufficiently sized dogs. Most medium-large dogs will have sufficient jaw strength to be able to crunch through animal bones you might buy from a store. This is well and truly above the bite strength necessary to kill a child.

    There are bigger dogs with more muscle mass than pitbulls. What is not in doubt is that pitbulls kill more humans per capita than most other breeds of dog, and they are a fairly popular dog so the absolute number of fatalities is high relative to other dog breeds.

    And (this is directed more at others in the thread) yes, maybe you can put a pitbull in a home with an intelligent owner who trains the dog properly, doesn't leave the dog unsupervised with children, and lets the dog know its place. Unlikely to kill someone. And... you could put a class of inner-city dindus in with Ivy League nice white lady teachers, and maybe Trayvon plays midnight basketball instead of looking for houses to burgle. Maybe. But who cares. It's not scalable. A lot of people never train their pets, and this applies to a lot of pitbull owners. (A lot of lab owners likely never train their pets. By the logic of the PB apologists, shouldn't the labs have fatality rates up near the PBs?)

    It seems like a lot of what drives this is just SJWism. Dogs are bred for a purpose, and honestly is the pitbull the prime family or even protection dog? No. If you want to bait bulls, or dog fight especially on a p4p basis, yes, the pitbull is a good option. But there are far better and statistically safer dogs for protection or pets. SJW's get a woody from "saving the life" of a rescue animal. Ok. So the dog lived another 3-8 years before it eventually died. And it was neutered, so it left no offspring in any case. What was achieved? Color me unimpressed.

    , @Anonymous Nephew
    If you google "which dog breeds are most aggressive" the results (FWTW) suggest that the most aggressive breeds are small dogs.

    https://petolog.com/articles/most-aggressive-dogs

    But a daschund can't do you much damage, while a rottie or a Rhodesian Ridgeback can.
  16. Oh, you mean human fatalities. Dog-related human fatalities.

    There goes the retort that, in the long run, pit bull fatalities match their percentage in the greater caninity almost precisely.

  17. @SFG
    Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don't train it to be mean it won't be. I guess that's kind of the point though.

    I doubt that many pit bull owners take the trouble to “train” the dog at all.

    And (in response to Steve’s query above) I doubt that many take the trouble to selectively “breed” the dog, or have intelligence and foresight to carry out any operation the results of which are not seen for generations.

    In my experience, which has included having my dog mauled on a public street by a neighbor’s pit bull, the owners are drug dealers or society’s discontents who want a guard dog to alert them to strangers and more especially the Law. Owning a pit bull is a badge or mark of membership for them.

    When my dog was attacked by an unrestrained pit bull my wife pepper sprayed it (which caused it to release its death grip on my dog’s neck) simultaneously I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull’s head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. Luckily, the owner with kids in tow had showed up by then and managed to subdue it. Ever since then I have carried my legally licensed concealed pistol when walking the dog. Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot. This attack wasn’t the first. The first time, my dog bolted in retreat and jerked my wife backward so that she fell hindmost into a ditch. The police are indifferent. There is no law against a dog killing another dog in my state. To settle, an aggrieved owner must pursue justice on their own initiative through civil courts. Only if the dog bites you do the police take action.

    • Replies: @Erik L
    Next pitbull that attacks you, how will you decide whether to shoot your wife or the pit?
    , @anonitron1

    Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot.
     
    "Back off or my wife gets it!"
    , @Johann Ricke
    "I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull’s head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. "

    Could you have smacked its head against the concrete, or was that a little too close for comfort? I recognize that swinging a 60 lb object takes a significant amount of effort.
    , @Anonymous
    "Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot."

    This is why we can't get rid of the Oxford comma...
    , @dc.sunsets
    Dogo Argentino are worse. Much larger, just as aggressive, and increasingly popular.

    There's an unwatchable Youtube of a Dogo being walked by a woman. The Dogo attacks a smaller dog and locks onto its throat.

    The smaller dog is literally screaming....it is heartbreaking....while the stupid female owner of the Dogo pathetically and uselessly tries to get it to release.

    I agree with you. Carry a gun. SHOOT aggressive dogs. I love dogs but people who keep dogs for "protection" are like idiots who would keep a loaded gun around when the gun can fire itself.

    Had a dog locked onto my beloved pet (while she was still alive) I'd have verified a safe backstop, put the gun near the spine of the aggressive animal and blown some vertebrae downrange. It would have then been pure self-control not to use the carcass to beat the owner senseless.
  18. Pit bulls are bred for violence in some areas because dog fighting is still a major activity…e.g. Chicago’s South Side….I had a case involving this activity.

  19. anon • Disclaimer says:

    An ironic twist is as the blank slate denied the existence of impulsively violent genetics in humans the people in the areas effected by all the impulsively violent human genetics introduced into their previously safe environment in turn denied the blank slate and physically bred scarier versions of scary dogs.

    And the media refusing to admit dogs can be bred for aggression is necessary to maintain the blank slate lie.

    We are living in a civilization poisoned by lies.

  20. It would be interesting to discover what percentage of the pitbull problems are the result of their genes, and what percentage is the result of their so often being the property of criminal scum. While there’s no doubt the former aspect plays a major role (for example, pitbulls are actually strong enough to effect carnage, unlike many other breeds), I suspect the latter aspect is also a major contributing factor, and absent it, pitbull-related human fatalities would plummet.

  21. Couple of confounds to consider:

    “Pit Bull” is a lot like “assault rifle”: it’s a term people use to describe something they find scary-looking, regardless of the actual mechanism/genetics. Dogs that commit fatal attacks generally don’t have AKC papers or genetic tests. Dogs labeled “pit bull” are usually mixes or other breeds entirely (Cane Corso, AmStaff, Boxer, etc.) So it’s hard to draw conclusions about the behavioral genetics of specific breeds from that data.

    The other major confound is that dog breeds aren’t randomly distributed among owners, so it’s very difficult to control for the environment in which the dog was raised. Put another way: the problem may not be the “pit bulls” themselves, but the fact that “pit bulls” tend to appeal to the kind of people who become bad owners.

    Put another way: The data may simply reflect an a-priori assumption that “pit bulls” are dangerous. So jerks who like the idea of having a dangerous dog tend to get pit bulls (and train them to be dangerous). And dogs that are involved in violent incidents are likely to be labeled “pit bulls” regardless of actual genetics.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    There are about 10,000 registered Cane Corso in the US, so it's likely more so that yes, pits are as violent as believed.

    However while the same shit heads who ruined pits are discovering corsos, their cachet and rarity make them cost prohibitive. There's also the not so small fact that most corso breeders won't sell to Deblackius who says "gimme dat bitey one".
    , @Expletive Deleted
    ".. dogs that are involved in violent incidents are likely to be labeled “pit bulls” regardless of actual genetics. "
    It's official in Blighty. Walks like a Pit, quacks like a Pit ..?? You're nicked son.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69263/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

    http://doglaw.co.uk/index.php/pitbull/

    more Gov. bumf, with typical weaselly smallprint enabling catch-all "selective enforcement" at whim, as with most if not all Brit Laws
    , @CommentGuy
    Your comment reads as though you are a pit bull owner.

    Almost all the bad things said about pit bulls are true--one of which is that they tend to attract dumb owners, though I do not mean to imply that you personally are dumb.

    Steve's choice of pit bull + tattoo image for this story is brilliant, and ensures that I will read this blog as long as it is maintained. Someone, preferably someone not averse to noticing, should really do some pit bull+tattoo research.

    , @Bill Jones
    Pit bull ownership is the inverse of the Social Justice Warrior's virtue signaling.
  22. it’s pretty bloody obvious to me that people buy these dogs to express their inner hostility to the world. something very weak and gamma about the owners.

    • Replies: @Kyle a
    You obviously don't know an owner one carol. I'm sensing hostilities in your post.
  23. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    There’s a lot of denial involved with this subject. Every time there’s a story about some pitbull-mix type dog suddenly snapping and killing someone’s child the comments section has people stating the breed is wonderful and friendly, placing the blame with the owners. Partly true but numbers are numbers. So why take a chance at all with the breed? They’re not that attractive. Around here the people with them are just the shady drug dealer petty criminal looking types. There’s no need for them for the average person who just wants a companion pet.

    • Replies: @Threecranes
    "They’re not that attractive."

    I would never own a breed of dog where I had to stare at its as*hole whenever it was facing away from me. Call me a prude, but I prefer border collies.
  24. Hog hunters often use pits as catch dogs after hounds have bayed the hog and so the pits must play nice with other pups. They rarely survive more than one instance of confusing Bubbas’ prize hunting dog with the hog. When my work required walking house to house all day long, I first tried nice doggy, come and get your ears scratched and that failing, I carried a few quarter pound rocks, a two foot screwdriver, a razor sharp belt knife and a Walther with hollow points. Massad Ayoob favors magnum pistols for Mannering large vicious dogs since no one can fight off a large canine that presses an attack. A chair or light coffee table beats a snowball. Pepper spray is also touted. When I had neighbors with mean dogs I pointed out that if one got loose on my street it was going to be my dog.

  25. Pit Bulls were breed to be dog-aggressive, and are a big risk around other dogs. They can be trained to be human-aggressive, and in the ghetto, often are. (It’s easy, and suits ghetto-dwellers, because the training is basically abuse.)

    It’s possible that between training for human-aggression and the environment of street dogs, that the general pit bull population is becoming more human-aggressive. I’d be wary of a shelter pit bull, but less worried about one from a breeder who tried to avoid aggression.

    Incidentally, the pit body seems to be more dominant, genetically, while the personality seems to be more recessive – most of the pit mixes I’ve met have much more the personality of the other breed, while looking more like pit bulls in shape. Don’t ever breed a pit bull with a Chihuahua.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Human aggression has been bred out of most breeds, except guard dogs. Of course a guard dog with no self-restraint and no training potential is useless. Alsatians and other shepherd dogs are popular because they can be trained, not because they are mean, though they can be when needed.
    This does not seem to be the case with pit-bulls: though not particularly prone to human aggression, (most likely they've got an innate fighting drive regardless of the prey) they can snap far too easily and this defect has not been bred out but encouraged.
    I guess you could say that pit-bulls are the NAMs of the canine world. Eugenics is badly needed but impossible to achieve.
  26. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    There seems to be a steady trickle of stories where the owner doesn't treat the dog Micheal Vick style, and she (it's usually a woman for some reason) trips or falls and the pitbull switches to ATTACK MODE. "The dog was always so nice, a beloved member of the family."

    This is not surprising. For some reason, most straight women and especially nurturing type women do not have what it takes to make a dog know its place in the home. The only man who would not naturally understand physical pecking orders would be someone who was home-schooled.

    A dog that thinks it is the boss, or does not know it is going to get a severe “correction” the moment it looks the wrong way at your kids, is as dangerous as a loaded weapon. The warning signs are predictable if you know what to look for as well. The problem is, a lot of people don’t. That dog that is growling as your kids try and take its toy away? Serious dominance hierarchy problems.

    This is more going to be a problem with naturally dominant breeds of dogs. And with such dogs, they will not know to obey properly until you start controlling their life and issuing corrections that are strong enough to cause a yelp. Of course, doing so is going to cause anyone mildly SJWish in nature to be triggered. They anthropomorphize the dog, and do not try and understand the dog on its own merits.

    Unfortunately a log of (most?) dog schools don’t seem to teach the pack structure thing, and they try and do everything with positive training and with limp-wristed negative training.

    By and large women, especially city women don’t understand “tough love” and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    Preach it!

    Modern "pet parents" try to train their dogs, which most have never owned before, using nothing but positive reinforcement. It works about as well with dogs as it does with children.

    I grew up in the country with a faithful collie/shepherd crossbreed that was more intelligent than a lot of people I know. My dad, a former farm boy, trained him using old-school reward/denial methods considered abusive in the modern world, and he never misbehaved. Our dogs back then were never neutered, either.

    I tweak the dog owners I know by calling them abusive to their pets, as all dogs should be free range but a large percentage now spend substantial time crated. I find it hilarious that their owners are shocked when their dogs start acting up when the owner gets home from work and lets them out; how would YOU act after being released from the doggie version of San Quentin, doing time for no other reason other than your existence?

    Your modern American is all for total equality, so they struggle with their dogs because there's no dominance established. Dogs have to know who's in charge, and if negative reinforcement isn't part of your training program, you're in for a long, hard slog.

    Pit bulls are like steroids; doing/owning them may not mean you're an asshole, but it's a pretty reliable indicator.

    , @Pontius
    When we adopted a Malamute puppy to replace our dearly departed Shepherd mix, our Lab/Border Collie female would sometimes pin him to the ground on his back and growl menacingly into his face until he yelped. We would be alarmed by this, until we realized it was just the natural way dogs train newcomers into the pecking order. He grew up to love her, and she him ( although she was coy about it!) and never crossed her in any way, even when he towered over her. He's a big guy now, 110lbs. He has a slight dominance issue, but generally is a food loving affection hound. I would NOT want to face off with him if he was angry though.

    I met a guy from Indiana who owned a Malamute. There were some coyotes calling out pets into the night and eating them. They called out his Malamute one night, and when he awoke the next day, his dog was on the porch covered in blood. Alarmed, he immediately began looking for injuries and found none. A wildlife officer told him he had found a dead coyote in the ditch about a mile from his place, and another so badly chewed up, he had to shoot him to end his suffering.
    , @Stan d Mute

    By and large women, especially city women don’t understand “tough love” and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.
     
    This has been my observation as well. Having spent decades on a farm, I have had unpleasant experience with, shall we say, harsher aspects of dog ownership including having to "put down" a much loved pet after it was devastated by an automobile strike. My wife, a typical feminine female, would have sat and cried until the dog expired in agony. Likewise, she couldn't bring herself to discipline a dog in dog terms (i.e. Negative reward of a type applied by another dog) thus allowing behaviors in very large dogs that could easily kill her or a child.

    And all this goes to my general theory that women should never have a say in matters of state. They should have no voice (outside influence they wield domestically) in wars or law enforcement for example and generally speaking where we have given women that voice things have gone drastically wrong.
  27. As an aside, why do some dog owners feel the need to bring the dog with them to the park? Do dogs like watching Little League baseball?

    • Agree: ScarletNumber
  28. @CPK
    Couple of confounds to consider:

    "Pit Bull" is a lot like "assault rifle": it's a term people use to describe something they find scary-looking, regardless of the actual mechanism/genetics. Dogs that commit fatal attacks generally don't have AKC papers or genetic tests. Dogs labeled "pit bull" are usually mixes or other breeds entirely (Cane Corso, AmStaff, Boxer, etc.) So it's hard to draw conclusions about the behavioral genetics of specific breeds from that data.

    The other major confound is that dog breeds aren't randomly distributed among owners, so it's very difficult to control for the environment in which the dog was raised. Put another way: the problem may not be the "pit bulls" themselves, but the fact that "pit bulls" tend to appeal to the kind of people who become bad owners.

    Put another way: The data may simply reflect an a-priori assumption that "pit bulls" are dangerous. So jerks who like the idea of having a dangerous dog tend to get pit bulls (and train them to be dangerous). And dogs that are involved in violent incidents are likely to be labeled "pit bulls" regardless of actual genetics.

    There are about 10,000 registered Cane Corso in the US, so it’s likely more so that yes, pits are as violent as believed.

    However while the same shit heads who ruined pits are discovering corsos, their cachet and rarity make them cost prohibitive. There’s also the not so small fact that most corso breeders won’t sell to Deblackius who says “gimme dat bitey one”.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Jack Hanson, Mr. or Ms. CPK is a bit off base. My daughter owned a Cane Corso and they could chew and swallow a pit bull. Corsos are huge dogs, the Italian version of a Mastiff. All the guard and war dogs are descendants of Mastiffs. In Michigan about three or four years ago, a male and female Cane Corso dug out of their pen and caught up to a jogger. They shredded the poor bastard, mauled him to death. A neighbor shot at the dogs and even managed to hit one, but the attack was relentless. The owners were charged with a degree of murder, as they should be. My brother owned a Rottweiler, the predecessor of the pit bull craze. I would not let my children out of the car until the dog was in its pen.
  29. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    There seems to be a steady trickle of stories where the owner doesn't treat the dog Micheal Vick style, and she (it's usually a woman for some reason) trips or falls and the pitbull switches to ATTACK MODE. "The dog was always so nice, a beloved member of the family."

    When my son was a toddler, he got knocked over by an extremely affectionate pit bull who stood astride him while he giggled on the ground. On one level, it was a charming scene, and no harm came to him, but you can bet that I got right in there to extricate him. He looked an awful lot like prey at that moment, and it would have been a nightmare if her kill switch had flipped at that moment.

    Here in Far North Portlandia, there are tons of pit bull blends in shelters, and we’re a very SWPL town, so the ones I’ve met tend to be friendly and well-socialized. But the kill switch is always in the back of my mind.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Standing over a child is a dominance display. There is nothing cute about it at all. Your gut was right... that was dangerous.

    Read the whole thing, but at least scroll down to the mastiff about 3/4 down the page.

    http://leerburg.com/kidbites.htm

    For additional info see:

    http://leerburg.com/dog_bites.htm
  30. Pit bulls need an “alpha” owner or they can quickly become a disaster. It’s not necessarily their disposition per say; it’s their overall strength.

    Anyone who thinks all dog breeds are the same btw are crazy. That said, they’re probably all better than cats.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    Cats are far more likely to bite and scratch you than a dog. They're still wild for the most part, too. However, even though they're impressive predators with needle sharp claws and teeth, domestic cats are relatively weak, timid and vulnerable, not unlike humans ourselves. They just don't have the kind of destructive potential that even small dogs have. This makes them a safer choice for a pet. Most carnivores (and a lot of non-carnivores) of equivalent size would be far more dangerous and difficult to manage. Can you imagine having a racoon in your house?
    , @Blobby5
    How dare you Sir! Rabbits maybe (sorry Steve) not cats!
  31. Dogs breeds have different personalities, on average, and those personalities are essentially the same even when a puppy is raised by a foster mother of a different breed.

    • Replies: @TWS
    When we decided to breed dogs again we wanted a breed that we wanted to improve. We needed to like the dog breed on all levels. Our second consideration (which was a subsection of the first) was the breed standard especially regarding disposition. We wanted a loyal, gentle, and easily handled dog. Our last considerations were cosmetic and functional.

    We found all that with the White Swiss Shepherd (an offshoot of the German Shepherd). We have found them to be gentle, biddable, and fun companions. They are protective without being aggressive towards dogs, animals or people. Ours are gentle with our elderly cats, careful but unafraid of the elk that come into our yard, and while they will bark at the tweakers and scuzzy types that walk by our yard they eagerly wait for the school bus to get the children to play with them (and we have parents that stop just so their kids get to be the ones who get to play that day) .

    We've owned many different breeds and these are the best pets we have found. Yes I am bragging.
  32. My mother owns a pit bull she raised from a puppy, and it seems to straddle the lumpy couch potato/assault weapon line pretty well. She told me once a vibrant youf tried kicking in the door to her house in an apparent home invasion attempt and wasn’t expecting an 80lb missile to maul him when the door flew open. When the police showed up she was able to reach over and grab him and he let go when she said so. This was after five minutes of mauling though IDK if maybe he was tired of his new toy or what.

    Mind you, this was a few years ago and other than that incident he seems to have gone right back to a lumpy couch potato who gets bossed around by two shih tzus. Your results may vary but I know he was raised well so there certainly is a nurture component.

    However I had an experience similar to an above poster where I was out walking the dog one night and two white trash youths set their dog on mine and cheered him up to the point my dog (what we thought was a chow/rott cross but turned out to be a Tibetan mastiff) disembowled theirs in the middle of the street.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Tibetan Mastiffs are massive and pretty rare in the west. How did you not know the breed you owned?
  33. @YIH
    It isn't a matter of how ''mean'' or not a pitbull is. It's their strength, physically they are the most muscular and strongest breed of dog. In fact, the name itself came from the practice of 'bull baiting' where such dogs fought with adult bulls. When bull baiting was outlawed, fighting switched to dog-on-dog, the only breeds that could hold their own against pits were chows, rottweilers, and of course, other pits/pit mixes.
    ''Pitbulls, which aren’t particularly big'' is a bit in error, they are considered large dogs and their weight (full blood pit) can range from about 60-100 lbs. They have shorter legs than other large breeds, and a 'stocky' build.
    Most of the pit-related deaths are of children, kids abuse/mistreat them and the dog reacts to what it perceives as an attack as any dog would. The difference is the dog is stronger than the child and often outweighs it as well. The other problem is while ''they lock their jaws'' is a myth they do have a lot of jaw strength and they were bred to hold on to whatever they bite down on.
    The popularity is due to the 'ghetto' image (illegal fights are not unusual, google Michael Vick) and the fact that it's difficult for an adult to fight them off if attacked.
    A sad side effect of the trend is cops will routinely shoot any dog they come across - no matter what size or threat.

    Pretty much all dog fatalities come from sufficiently sized dogs. Most medium-large dogs will have sufficient jaw strength to be able to crunch through animal bones you might buy from a store. This is well and truly above the bite strength necessary to kill a child.

    There are bigger dogs with more muscle mass than pitbulls. What is not in doubt is that pitbulls kill more humans per capita than most other breeds of dog, and they are a fairly popular dog so the absolute number of fatalities is high relative to other dog breeds.

    And (this is directed more at others in the thread) yes, maybe you can put a pitbull in a home with an intelligent owner who trains the dog properly, doesn’t leave the dog unsupervised with children, and lets the dog know its place. Unlikely to kill someone. And… you could put a class of inner-city dindus in with Ivy League nice white lady teachers, and maybe Trayvon plays midnight basketball instead of looking for houses to burgle. Maybe. But who cares. It’s not scalable. A lot of people never train their pets, and this applies to a lot of pitbull owners. (A lot of lab owners likely never train their pets. By the logic of the PB apologists, shouldn’t the labs have fatality rates up near the PBs?)

    It seems like a lot of what drives this is just SJWism. Dogs are bred for a purpose, and honestly is the pitbull the prime family or even protection dog? No. If you want to bait bulls, or dog fight especially on a p4p basis, yes, the pitbull is a good option. But there are far better and statistically safer dogs for protection or pets. SJW’s get a woody from “saving the life” of a rescue animal. Ok. So the dog lived another 3-8 years before it eventually died. And it was neutered, so it left no offspring in any case. What was achieved? Color me unimpressed.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    (A lot of lab owners likely never train their pets. By the logic of the PB apologists, shouldn’t the labs have fatality rates up near the PBs?)
     
    Exactly.
  34. Problem is bad owners.

    • Replies: @Threecranes
    Problem is people like you who misdirect and disinform by insisting that the "Problem is bad owners."

    Even if we eliminated people like you...
    and even if we eliminated bad owners...
    Pitbull problems would persist.

    So, should we eliminate (1) your kind?
    (2) Pitbull owners?
    (3) Or pitbulls?

    Choose one.
  35. @anon
    Problem is bad owners.

    Problem is people like you who misdirect and disinform by insisting that the “Problem is bad owners.”

    Even if we eliminated people like you…
    and even if we eliminated bad owners…
    Pitbull problems would persist.

    So, should we eliminate (1) your kind?
    (2) Pitbull owners?
    (3) Or pitbulls?

    Choose one.

    • Replies: @Kyle a
    how about we just eliminate you?
    , @TWS
    There's an island somewhere, can't remember where, where if a dog bites a human it is killed no exceptions. Dog bites are nearly unknown. Must be all the good socialization and training.
  36. @anonymous
    There's a lot of denial involved with this subject. Every time there's a story about some pitbull-mix type dog suddenly snapping and killing someone's child the comments section has people stating the breed is wonderful and friendly, placing the blame with the owners. Partly true but numbers are numbers. So why take a chance at all with the breed? They're not that attractive. Around here the people with them are just the shady drug dealer petty criminal looking types. There's no need for them for the average person who just wants a companion pet.

    “They’re not that attractive.”

    I would never own a breed of dog where I had to stare at its as*hole whenever it was facing away from me. Call me a prude, but I prefer border collies.

    • Replies: @JSM
    Or Goldens, who demurely hold their tales in a lovely and modest down-and-up curve.
  37. @Threecranes
    I doubt that many pit bull owners take the trouble to "train" the dog at all.

    And (in response to Steve's query above) I doubt that many take the trouble to selectively "breed" the dog, or have intelligence and foresight to carry out any operation the results of which are not seen for generations.

    In my experience, which has included having my dog mauled on a public street by a neighbor's pit bull, the owners are drug dealers or society's discontents who want a guard dog to alert them to strangers and more especially the Law. Owning a pit bull is a badge or mark of membership for them.

    When my dog was attacked by an unrestrained pit bull my wife pepper sprayed it (which caused it to release its death grip on my dog's neck) simultaneously I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull's head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. Luckily, the owner with kids in tow had showed up by then and managed to subdue it. Ever since then I have carried my legally licensed concealed pistol when walking the dog. Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot. This attack wasn't the first. The first time, my dog bolted in retreat and jerked my wife backward so that she fell hindmost into a ditch. The police are indifferent. There is no law against a dog killing another dog in my state. To settle, an aggrieved owner must pursue justice on their own initiative through civil courts. Only if the dog bites you do the police take action.

    Next pitbull that attacks you, how will you decide whether to shoot your wife or the pit?

    • Replies: @International Jew

    Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot.

    Next pitbull that attacks you, how will you decide whether to shoot your wife or the pit?
     

     
    Ok, funny, but mean.

    Another good reason unz should give us more time to edit our comments.
  38. On Steve’s original topic: The Doberman made sense in the Pacific Theater because it had a short coat which suited the hot weather. Of course, it had other good qualities.

    Dogs are very much subject to fashion. A movie or TV show does wonders for popularity. The rap lifestyle has done wonders for the popularity of the pit. Two things that made Dobermans popular back 30-40 years ago:
    1. The Omen.
    2. Magnum PI.

    The decay in popularity back to baseline is due to the fact that these pop culture artifacts were of the 1970s and 1980s, which is some 25+ years ago.

    Breeding for many breeds has become ossified and eccentric according to the whims of the AKC and dog shows. The Doberman and GSD breeds have become bifurcated between European and American lines. The Europeans are often bred for Schutzhund or sourced from animals bred for those requirements. As a result they are generally more robust, hardier, working animals with the correct instincts. The Americans are more “pretty” show ponies. (I think there is beauty in functional correctness, but I’m probably the minority there.) Think bodybuilding vs MMA. Or bodybuilding vs training to be a cop, which is probably more analogous to Schutzhund. And if you specifically took a bunch of top bodybuilders and daughters of other top buildbuilders and bred them over several generations. And you did the same thing with cops. If you wanted cop-like behavior, you wouldn’t go with the bodybuilder line, would you, even though they’d probably really nail that “most muscular” pose, just by instinct.

    I don’t know how that plays out with fatality rates, but I understand that in Europe the Schutzhund dogs are screened for unsuitable temperament.

    There are loads of better protection dogs than the PB. A lot have been bred and battle-tested in areas subject to less civilized forms of humanity. For example, the South African Boerboel, and the Fila Brasiliero (again, types of Molosser breeds). Google them. They are really interesting. I think due to the internet we will see the rise in popularity of heretofore unusual dogs (in the west) to the extent that people want a protection dog vs a fighting dog, and can afford the dog food. (This kind of goes along with importing the less civilized people from those countries – you need the rest of what passes for their sh***y infrastructure.)

    It’s kind of like employer-driven immigration. Want a coder? Get an Indian. Want a fruit picker? Get a Mexican. Want a female who will have sex with you despite your obnoxious/creepy personality? South-East Asian or Eastern European depending on taste.

    At least dogs don’t bloc vote to transfer all your wealth to them, while dissolving whatever bonds of nation you once felt through miscegenation.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Anonym, Doberman was the dog in "Boys from Brazil."
    , @TWS
    I was at a democrat caucus where the 'boss' said that if his cat could raise her hand he'd let her vote. He wasn't joking.
  39. @MKP
    From my experience, ownership of dangerous pitbulls is one of the few areas in which the hackneyed argument of whiny liberals is actually true:

    The trashy whites are just as bad as the ghetto blacks.

    Pitbulls ~ local crime rate

    • Replies: @TWS
    Pretty true. All the meth dealers and producers in my area use pitt-rottie mixes. The dogs are uniformly loud, dangerous, and effective at keeping people from sneaking into their owner's property. One particularly vicious dog was always chained to his owner's vehicle. No car prowler there.
  40. It’s actually the other way around. Until the 1970s pits were extremely dog aggressive and and very unaggressive towards humans. The reason was dogfighting. In a proper match each owner might have to put his hands on either dog. Any dog that would bite a human would not be bred.

    Since the 1970s that has been less and less the case. Pitbulls are strong enough to meet the macho image needs of a certain kind of owner and were also much cheaper than rotties. Decades of bad breeding by irresponsible owners created the problem.

    That said I still like those dogs. Most of them I have met have been sweethearts

    • Replies: @JSM
    Or Goldens, who demurely hold their tales in a lovely and modest down-and-up curve.
  41. dog breeds and pit bulls interested me long before I got into HBD. Actually some of the central issues of HBD for me I had thought about already before – in the context of dog breeds.
    For example there is this typical behavior of white people who get passionate about their belief that Pit Bulls are genetically as nice as a any other dog breed, training is everything in their opinion. This is the nature / nurture question, and to me it always seemed to be very unrealistic that people who have bred dogs for fighting for centuries would put all their betting money and the effort for breeding into it without observing any results.
    More important I was always stunned by the contradictory behavior of people who buy Pit Bulls. They have chosen Pit Bulls out of maybe some hundred breeds, proving that they somehow see a difference. Obviously they have perceives the sturdy built up, low point of gravity, the huge jaw, which objectively makes them more fit to fight than e.g. a Collie. It is like allegedly antiracist women who prefer males of west african ancestry, obviously for the aura of strength and aggression, and at the same time deny to see any difference between populations.
    And last but not least, drug dealers do choose Pit Bulls not without a reason.

  42. If you are looking for a scary dog, you might check out the American Alsatian.

  43. I own a female Corso and the people saying “harsh correction” are spot on. The friend who sold me the dog told me “think small farm and animal and not large dog when it comes to discipline” and that’s been my guiding light that has paid off.

    There was some aggression/domination issues towards the wife that was dealt with severely and hasn’t been a problem in two years now. Great with the kids, and she mauled an illegal alien sex offender who went after the wife and kids to death. A+ breed would own again.

    • Replies: @athEIst
    mauled an illegal alien sex offender to death.
    So, were there any legal affects or did just a shallow grave suffice?
  44. @Arclight
    Considering that many pit bulls are poorly trained, socialized, and encouraged to be aggressive, to the extent they receive any attention at all - just like their owners - this isn't at all surprising When I lived in a nearly all-black DC neighborhood, with a single exception it was the only breed of dog any of the black neighborhood residents owned. They were mostly left in the yard by themselves most of the time unless taken for a stroll around the area to show off, and I don't recall any being able to follow even rudimentary commands like "sit" or "heel."

    Some people argue that they aren't really any worse than other breeds and perhaps that's true if they have responsible owners, but in my observations they are often owned by people who don't value them as companions but as accessories to their gangsta image.

    Funny how none of my mother’s mixed breed dogs ever needed to be trained, socialized, encouraged or otherwise persuaded not to tear into human flesh unprovoked.

  45. @CPK
    Couple of confounds to consider:

    "Pit Bull" is a lot like "assault rifle": it's a term people use to describe something they find scary-looking, regardless of the actual mechanism/genetics. Dogs that commit fatal attacks generally don't have AKC papers or genetic tests. Dogs labeled "pit bull" are usually mixes or other breeds entirely (Cane Corso, AmStaff, Boxer, etc.) So it's hard to draw conclusions about the behavioral genetics of specific breeds from that data.

    The other major confound is that dog breeds aren't randomly distributed among owners, so it's very difficult to control for the environment in which the dog was raised. Put another way: the problem may not be the "pit bulls" themselves, but the fact that "pit bulls" tend to appeal to the kind of people who become bad owners.

    Put another way: The data may simply reflect an a-priori assumption that "pit bulls" are dangerous. So jerks who like the idea of having a dangerous dog tend to get pit bulls (and train them to be dangerous). And dogs that are involved in violent incidents are likely to be labeled "pit bulls" regardless of actual genetics.

    “.. dogs that are involved in violent incidents are likely to be labeled “pit bulls” regardless of actual genetics. “
    It’s official in Blighty. Walks like a Pit, quacks like a Pit ..?? You’re nicked son.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69263/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

    http://doglaw.co.uk/index.php/pitbull/

    more Gov. bumf, with typical weaselly smallprint enabling catch-all “selective enforcement” at whim, as with most if not all Brit Laws

  46. @Sal Paradise
    Pit bulls need an "alpha" owner or they can quickly become a disaster. It's not necessarily their disposition per say; it's their overall strength.

    Anyone who thinks all dog breeds are the same btw are crazy. That said, they're probably all better than cats.

    Cats are far more likely to bite and scratch you than a dog. They’re still wild for the most part, too. However, even though they’re impressive predators with needle sharp claws and teeth, domestic cats are relatively weak, timid and vulnerable, not unlike humans ourselves. They just don’t have the kind of destructive potential that even small dogs have. This makes them a safer choice for a pet. Most carnivores (and a lot of non-carnivores) of equivalent size would be far more dangerous and difficult to manage. Can you imagine having a racoon in your house?

    • Replies: @Stealth
    raCcoon
  47. @Stealth
    Cats are far more likely to bite and scratch you than a dog. They're still wild for the most part, too. However, even though they're impressive predators with needle sharp claws and teeth, domestic cats are relatively weak, timid and vulnerable, not unlike humans ourselves. They just don't have the kind of destructive potential that even small dogs have. This makes them a safer choice for a pet. Most carnivores (and a lot of non-carnivores) of equivalent size would be far more dangerous and difficult to manage. Can you imagine having a racoon in your house?

    raCcoon

  48. I bet that standard poodles account for exactly zero fatalities. Probably zero fatal attacks ever. Despite the fact that they are only slightly smaller than German Shepherds, with bigger teeth. Poodles are elderly Japanese lady’s equivalent as far as killings go.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Poodles are dumber than a box of rocks.
  49. @Threecranes
    I doubt that many pit bull owners take the trouble to "train" the dog at all.

    And (in response to Steve's query above) I doubt that many take the trouble to selectively "breed" the dog, or have intelligence and foresight to carry out any operation the results of which are not seen for generations.

    In my experience, which has included having my dog mauled on a public street by a neighbor's pit bull, the owners are drug dealers or society's discontents who want a guard dog to alert them to strangers and more especially the Law. Owning a pit bull is a badge or mark of membership for them.

    When my dog was attacked by an unrestrained pit bull my wife pepper sprayed it (which caused it to release its death grip on my dog's neck) simultaneously I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull's head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. Luckily, the owner with kids in tow had showed up by then and managed to subdue it. Ever since then I have carried my legally licensed concealed pistol when walking the dog. Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot. This attack wasn't the first. The first time, my dog bolted in retreat and jerked my wife backward so that she fell hindmost into a ditch. The police are indifferent. There is no law against a dog killing another dog in my state. To settle, an aggrieved owner must pursue justice on their own initiative through civil courts. Only if the dog bites you do the police take action.

    Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot.

    “Back off or my wife gets it!”

  50. RE: Dog breeds

    Daniel Freedman was a professor of anthropology at the University of Chicago. For his doctoral thesis, he did adoption studies with dogs. He had noticed that different dog breeds had different personalities, and thought it would be interesting to see if personality was inborn, or if it was somehow caused by the way in which the mother raised her puppies. Totally inborn. Little beagles were irrepressibly friendly. Shetland sheepdogs were most sensitive to a loud voice or the slightest punishment. Wire-haired terriers were so tough and aggressive that Dan had to wear gloves when playing with puppies that were only three weeks old. Basenjis were aloof and independent.

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    • Replies: @syonredux
    And Freedman later applied the same techniques to human infants:

    He decided to try the same thing with human infants of different breeds. Excuse me, different races. He looked at newborn babies in a hospital in San Francisco where his first child had been born. He compared Cantonese babies with babies of Northern European origin. The division of sexes was the same, the mothers were the same age, they had about the same number of previous children, and they had been administered the same drugs in the same amounts during labor.

    White babies started to cry more easily, and once they started, they were more difficult to console. Chinese babies adapted to almost any position in which they were placed; for example, when placed face down in their cribs, they tended to keep their faces buried in the sheets rather than immediately turning to one side, as the Caucasian babies did. They briefly pressed the baby’s nose with a cloth, forcing him to breath with his mouth. Most white (and black) babies fight this maneuver by immediately turning away or swiping at the cloth with their hands, and this is reported in Western pediatric textbooks as normal. While the average Chinese baby would simply lay on his back, breathing through the mouth, accepting the cloth without a fight. There are movies of this: they are apparently quite striking, and should be on YouTube. I talked to a prof who showed these movies to students in a class at an Ivy league university: they really, really hated it. They should emigrate to a different reality – one of those probability lines outside the Blight, full of butt-kicking pixies, avuncular gay men, Melanesian super-hackers, and female Fields medalists. And unicorns.

    Later, he looked at Navaho babies: they’re like Chinese, only more so.

    Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/
    , @Anonym
    I am pleasantly surprised by the intellectual honesty of (((Freedman))). One of the biggest PB apologists I knew IRL was also, and it makes sense if one is going to be PC on race to also be PC on breed. Or is at least more coherent even if doubling down on wrong.
  51. @CPK
    Couple of confounds to consider:

    "Pit Bull" is a lot like "assault rifle": it's a term people use to describe something they find scary-looking, regardless of the actual mechanism/genetics. Dogs that commit fatal attacks generally don't have AKC papers or genetic tests. Dogs labeled "pit bull" are usually mixes or other breeds entirely (Cane Corso, AmStaff, Boxer, etc.) So it's hard to draw conclusions about the behavioral genetics of specific breeds from that data.

    The other major confound is that dog breeds aren't randomly distributed among owners, so it's very difficult to control for the environment in which the dog was raised. Put another way: the problem may not be the "pit bulls" themselves, but the fact that "pit bulls" tend to appeal to the kind of people who become bad owners.

    Put another way: The data may simply reflect an a-priori assumption that "pit bulls" are dangerous. So jerks who like the idea of having a dangerous dog tend to get pit bulls (and train them to be dangerous). And dogs that are involved in violent incidents are likely to be labeled "pit bulls" regardless of actual genetics.

    Your comment reads as though you are a pit bull owner.

    Almost all the bad things said about pit bulls are true–one of which is that they tend to attract dumb owners, though I do not mean to imply that you personally are dumb.

    Steve’s choice of pit bull + tattoo image for this story is brilliant, and ensures that I will read this blog as long as it is maintained. Someone, preferably someone not averse to noticing, should really do some pit bull+tattoo research.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My wife did some noticing of Things Unseen at the dog beach in Del Mar, CA, a pricey beach with an offshore reef that makes it very safe for rich old people and their beloved grandchildren: no pit bulls and non tattoos.
    , @Old Palo Altan
    It is curious that this topic should have come up today: only this morning, in the beautiful and famously staid European city I live in, I noticed, and shied away from, a man and his pit bull.
    But I noticed to, and wondered at, this fact: the owner was a classic nerd: weedy, bent, pasty-faced, and diffident.
    This scared me all the more; if his beast had gone into attack mode, he would have been unable to do anything at all about it.
    , @CPK
    No, I'm not a pit bull owner, but I've worked with a lot of dogs as a shelter volunteer. Based on that experience, I found that the article went off the rails almost immediately:

    dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise
     
    No. Really, just, no. Even experienced vets can't do more than make an educated guess at breed mix, and those guesses aren't very reliable. If we don't have a pedigree, or even better a DNA test, then we don't know the breed. Full stop, end of research project.

    Dogsbite.org is relying on journalists for breed identification (their data set is based on media reports). Maybe there are some very conscientious journalists who won't call a dog a "pit bull" until they've seen its AKC papers. But I suspect that, when reporting what are literally "dog bites man" stories, they (or their sources) simply fall back on the lazy stereotype that violent dog = "pit bull" until proven otherwise.

    Granted, the stereotype may become self-fulfilling: thugs are attracted to pit bulls because of their violent reputation, then train the dogs to live up to that reputation. But if so, pit bull violence (to the extent it's a thing) is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated -- not anything inherent to the breed.

    Again, there's a precise analogy with guns, crime and gun control: the problem is the thug himself, not the otherwise-legal instruments he puts to thuggish ends.
  52. @syonredux
    RE: Dog breeds

    Daniel Freedman was a professor of anthropology at the University of Chicago. For his doctoral thesis, he did adoption studies with dogs. He had noticed that different dog breeds had different personalities, and thought it would be interesting to see if personality was inborn, or if it was somehow caused by the way in which the mother raised her puppies. Totally inborn. Little beagles were irrepressibly friendly. Shetland sheepdogs were most sensitive to a loud voice or the slightest punishment. Wire-haired terriers were so tough and aggressive that Dan had to wear gloves when playing with puppies that were only three weeks old. Basenjis were aloof and independent.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    And Freedman later applied the same techniques to human infants:

    He decided to try the same thing with human infants of different breeds. Excuse me, different races. He looked at newborn babies in a hospital in San Francisco where his first child had been born. He compared Cantonese babies with babies of Northern European origin. The division of sexes was the same, the mothers were the same age, they had about the same number of previous children, and they had been administered the same drugs in the same amounts during labor.

    White babies started to cry more easily, and once they started, they were more difficult to console. Chinese babies adapted to almost any position in which they were placed; for example, when placed face down in their cribs, they tended to keep their faces buried in the sheets rather than immediately turning to one side, as the Caucasian babies did. They briefly pressed the baby’s nose with a cloth, forcing him to breath with his mouth. Most white (and black) babies fight this maneuver by immediately turning away or swiping at the cloth with their hands, and this is reported in Western pediatric textbooks as normal. While the average Chinese baby would simply lay on his back, breathing through the mouth, accepting the cloth without a fight. There are movies of this: they are apparently quite striking, and should be on YouTube. I talked to a prof who showed these movies to students in a class at an Ivy league university: they really, really hated it. They should emigrate to a different reality – one of those probability lines outside the Blight, full of butt-kicking pixies, avuncular gay men, Melanesian super-hackers, and female Fields medalists. And unicorns.

    Later, he looked at Navaho babies: they’re like Chinese, only more so.

    Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    • Replies: @syonredux
    And here's footage from Freedman's test on human infants from different races:



    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz2jjx_cross-cultural-differences-in-newborn-behavior_news#.UW7ho8rkef0
    , @5371
    [Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.]

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.

    , @Lot
    Fascinating. Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.

    California has so many half and quarter mixes I've noticed that Japanese mixes look whiter too, half Japanese can look almost 100% white sometimes, just vaguely asiatic like many Russians. One even had light brown hair and blue eyes. He was only the second light haired hapa I ever met, the other was an Indo-Dutch man staying at the same youth hostel room as me in Italy.
    , @Gargamel
    Lack of irritation when the nose is obstructed is probably a cold weather adaptation, since babies in cold climates will spend most of their time completely wrapped in clothing except for their mouths.
  53. @Tiny Duck
    The question we need to ask is why do pit bulls act aggressively at a higher rate? Also what have we as a society made them do to act lie that?

    America will continue have this tragic carnage until:

    1) it finally owns up to its centuries long oppression and degradation of pit bulls.

    2) Abolishes every disgraceful form of institutional Breedism ( e. g. denial of or higher rates for Homeowners Insurance for Pit Bull households ) that blights this nation founded on equality for all.

    3) Require that Labradors be required to attend Labrador Privilege Awareness training sessions.

    4) Finally have sufficient decency to address the national disgrace of Pit Bull over-incarceration in the nation’s Dog pounds!

    5) And have sufficient honesty and humility to admit that The War On Bites was Breedist motivated and has been a spectacular failure.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    An excellent starting point but not complete.

    You forgot reparations and other forms of wealth transfer such as AA and welfare. Registrations of other dogs should be raised so that some of this money can be put aside for PB education.

    The Nazi eugenicist euthanizing and sterilizing of PBs in pounds must stop. We thought history ended sometime back in Fukuyama's time but clearly it wasn't quite finished.

    That there are other distinct breeds is a travesty. We need to ramp up the use of our soft power by producing enough content so that in every scene in which there is a dog, it features a male PB and a female of another breed. Yes, I know that breeds do not exist but we must do out best to try and identify the different breeds.

    PBs must get some of that environment that causes labs et al to be non-violent. To that end, they must be bussed in to receive their training in schools in proximity with other dogs.
  54. @syonredux
    And Freedman later applied the same techniques to human infants:

    He decided to try the same thing with human infants of different breeds. Excuse me, different races. He looked at newborn babies in a hospital in San Francisco where his first child had been born. He compared Cantonese babies with babies of Northern European origin. The division of sexes was the same, the mothers were the same age, they had about the same number of previous children, and they had been administered the same drugs in the same amounts during labor.

    White babies started to cry more easily, and once they started, they were more difficult to console. Chinese babies adapted to almost any position in which they were placed; for example, when placed face down in their cribs, they tended to keep their faces buried in the sheets rather than immediately turning to one side, as the Caucasian babies did. They briefly pressed the baby’s nose with a cloth, forcing him to breath with his mouth. Most white (and black) babies fight this maneuver by immediately turning away or swiping at the cloth with their hands, and this is reported in Western pediatric textbooks as normal. While the average Chinese baby would simply lay on his back, breathing through the mouth, accepting the cloth without a fight. There are movies of this: they are apparently quite striking, and should be on YouTube. I talked to a prof who showed these movies to students in a class at an Ivy league university: they really, really hated it. They should emigrate to a different reality – one of those probability lines outside the Blight, full of butt-kicking pixies, avuncular gay men, Melanesian super-hackers, and female Fields medalists. And unicorns.

    Later, he looked at Navaho babies: they’re like Chinese, only more so.

    Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    And here’s footage from Freedman’s test on human infants from different races:

  55. @syonredux
    And Freedman later applied the same techniques to human infants:

    He decided to try the same thing with human infants of different breeds. Excuse me, different races. He looked at newborn babies in a hospital in San Francisco where his first child had been born. He compared Cantonese babies with babies of Northern European origin. The division of sexes was the same, the mothers were the same age, they had about the same number of previous children, and they had been administered the same drugs in the same amounts during labor.

    White babies started to cry more easily, and once they started, they were more difficult to console. Chinese babies adapted to almost any position in which they were placed; for example, when placed face down in their cribs, they tended to keep their faces buried in the sheets rather than immediately turning to one side, as the Caucasian babies did. They briefly pressed the baby’s nose with a cloth, forcing him to breath with his mouth. Most white (and black) babies fight this maneuver by immediately turning away or swiping at the cloth with their hands, and this is reported in Western pediatric textbooks as normal. While the average Chinese baby would simply lay on his back, breathing through the mouth, accepting the cloth without a fight. There are movies of this: they are apparently quite striking, and should be on YouTube. I talked to a prof who showed these movies to students in a class at an Ivy league university: they really, really hated it. They should emigrate to a different reality – one of those probability lines outside the Blight, full of butt-kicking pixies, avuncular gay men, Melanesian super-hackers, and female Fields medalists. And unicorns.

    Later, he looked at Navaho babies: they’re like Chinese, only more so.

    Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    [Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.]

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    [Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.]

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.
     
    Don't think that Cochran/Freedman is arguing that the Japanese are more closely related to Europeans than they are to the Chinese.

    It's just the case that Freeman's study indicates that Japanese infants are more "irritable." So, an example of intra-East Asian variation.

    Personally, I would be very interested in seeing a cross comparison between European infants. Say, comparing Lithuanian infants to Sardinians.
    , @anon

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.
     
    Depends on the cause - if it's generations of farming that makes babies more placid then baby placidity among populations would go

    120 generations > 80 generations > 40 generations > 20 generations
  56. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    It’s not an accident that Americans have allowed a violent dog to spread all over a society where we no longer believe in culling the genes of violent humans. If people are frightened of each other, they’ll go out and get a dangerous dog. Blacks love owning pits because they live close to other blacks who are insanely violent. If we executed everyone in this country who had ever committed a felony with the vigor of a Victorian hanging judge, our country would be as safe as Switzerland. If you want to protect your society, you have to snip off the gene lines of criminal families.

  57. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The breed was created, through hundreds of years of artificial selection, for the prized (by dogfighter and big game hunter) quality if gameness. In this context, gameness means a willingness to attack another animal without provocation, and to continue to attack, even to the point that the attacking dog would succumb to its injuries. This trait, while a complete perversion of the natural state of things, was what made a dog a pit-fighting champion.

    What separates the pit bull from dogs like shepherds and dobermans is the drive behind the aggression. Your typical shepherd has a strong defense drive; he typically bites when he feels he or his owner is in peril. Pit bulls, on the other hand, tend to have very low defense drive. In fact, most make terrible guard dogs and see all people as friends. Where it gets dangerous is when that inherent prey drive gets triggered (loud noise, fast movement) and the dog goes into aggressive mode.

    I have some experience with this breed as I was took in a medium sized female that I found loose on a street years ago. I wasn’t even aware if her breed; I mistook her for a mix at the time. I found her to be super high energy, gregarious, and quite sweet. She was, at best, totally unreliable around other animals. At only 50 lbs she was, pound for pound, the strongest dog I ever encountered. She liked kids but I never allowed her around little ones. To do so would have been criminally stupid. Had I not bonded so closely to her, I would have never picked this breed as a pet. That said, I enjoyed her company for the 9 years I owned her until she succumbed to cancer.

    What do I think now? I think the breed can be great for people who live in rural areas and know what they’re dealing with. Their presence in the urban and suburban areas is a disaster waiting to happen. It’s worth noting that there are two closely related AKC offshoots of the breed, the American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier, who are essentially watered down (less aggressive) versions of the pit bull. With proper training, these breeds seem to do just fine in city environments. As for me, my next dog while likely be a good old-fashioned black Lab!

  58. Last Fall, my neighbor got a Pit and is it nasty. It’s aggressive, hostile and has decided I’m some kind of threat, when I’ve always gotten along with dogs. My Lab passed away just last year.

    The Pit also seems to be a bit screwy or maybe that was the way he was raised.

    I told them my concerns, but they didn’t care. Now when I’m in the front yard, I walk around strapped with a .357 Magnum for protection. If you saw how crazy that Pit acts when he sees me, you would be packing too.

    I first contacted the Police Chief to let him know the situation and he’s cool with defending myself.

    Trouble is, I’ll have to wait until that crazy bastard is in my yard before shooting, which means I’ll get one shot and have about 1.5 seconds to make it, if I don’t, I’ll find out first-hand if there is a God.

  59. @CPK
    Couple of confounds to consider:

    "Pit Bull" is a lot like "assault rifle": it's a term people use to describe something they find scary-looking, regardless of the actual mechanism/genetics. Dogs that commit fatal attacks generally don't have AKC papers or genetic tests. Dogs labeled "pit bull" are usually mixes or other breeds entirely (Cane Corso, AmStaff, Boxer, etc.) So it's hard to draw conclusions about the behavioral genetics of specific breeds from that data.

    The other major confound is that dog breeds aren't randomly distributed among owners, so it's very difficult to control for the environment in which the dog was raised. Put another way: the problem may not be the "pit bulls" themselves, but the fact that "pit bulls" tend to appeal to the kind of people who become bad owners.

    Put another way: The data may simply reflect an a-priori assumption that "pit bulls" are dangerous. So jerks who like the idea of having a dangerous dog tend to get pit bulls (and train them to be dangerous). And dogs that are involved in violent incidents are likely to be labeled "pit bulls" regardless of actual genetics.

    Pit bull ownership is the inverse of the Social Justice Warrior’s virtue signaling.

    • Replies: @anon
    gene-culture co-evolution in action
  60. It’s hard to separate inherent breed characteristics from the sorts of people who buy the dog. I suspect pitbulls are a bit more dangerous than most breeds irrespective of treatment, but on top of that the kind of person who buys a pitbull wants a dangerous dog. You don’t buy a pitbull to give your daughter precious pet memories – you buy one to keep your junkie customers in line.

    Same with presa canarios. People buy presa canarios to fight them and to scare the hell out of the neighborhood. When a presa kills someone the story always ends up reading something something like “The dogs’ actual owner, Paul Schneider, was a high-ranking member of the prison gang the Aryan Brotherhood who was serving a life sentence in Pelican Bay State Prison.”

  61. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Pitbulls are popular with the hispter dipshit class these days. I was shocked by how many we saw in pricey Hermosa/Manhattan Beach, which was formerly Golden Retriever and designer dog territory.

    I’m surprised by the trendiness of so many ugly dogs – pitbulls, bull dogs, French bull dogs, etc. Give me a cute beagle, our first dog, or our current awesome Australian Shepherd any day.

    Like most every other thing in life, people fail to research the proper dog for their circumstances. I put a good amount of blame on crappy rescues and shelters, who undersell flaws in dogs. Some dogs are born bad and not every dog can be rehabilitated. The no-kill trend is probably not a good one.

  62. I am glad to see Steve writing about pitbulls. They are a dangerous breed often owned by ghetto people. The statistics are correct, but they don’t show the sheer stupidity of ownership.

    Pitbulls have been outlawed in some states, and I think they should be everywhere.

    I do not stay this lightly. I grew up from age 10 with a German shepherd. Born to our family dog, he grew up with me. Together, we attended “obedience training,” which is as much training for the human as the dog.

    My dog was my best friend for 15 years. Together, we traveled the United States, climbing mountains and hiking famous trails. Never did he bark at, growl at, or threaten a human being. He was too smart and well-trained for that — even though he would have killed to protect me.

    Pitbull owners are morons. This is a biodiversity issue. The breed is idiotic, bred to fight and kill, but unpredictable and stupid. Pitbulls are useless. Get rid of them as fast as you can.

    • Replies: @fnn
    As someone above pointed out, the Pit Bulls used as "catch dogs" for hog hunting are sound. They're sound because the ones who are aggressive to other dogs or humans are culled immediately.
  63. I revise and extend by saying that in urban areas, a 12 ga 3″ with #2 shot fails to penetrate walls, yet works the charm at close range. Twirling them around your head does work but I cheated and banged the head on the ground once I had up speed.

  64. @Danindc
    Only idiots own pit bulls. No exceptions.

    And both they and the pit bulls should be bred out of existence.

  65. @syonredux
    And Freedman later applied the same techniques to human infants:

    He decided to try the same thing with human infants of different breeds. Excuse me, different races. He looked at newborn babies in a hospital in San Francisco where his first child had been born. He compared Cantonese babies with babies of Northern European origin. The division of sexes was the same, the mothers were the same age, they had about the same number of previous children, and they had been administered the same drugs in the same amounts during labor.

    White babies started to cry more easily, and once they started, they were more difficult to console. Chinese babies adapted to almost any position in which they were placed; for example, when placed face down in their cribs, they tended to keep their faces buried in the sheets rather than immediately turning to one side, as the Caucasian babies did. They briefly pressed the baby’s nose with a cloth, forcing him to breath with his mouth. Most white (and black) babies fight this maneuver by immediately turning away or swiping at the cloth with their hands, and this is reported in Western pediatric textbooks as normal. While the average Chinese baby would simply lay on his back, breathing through the mouth, accepting the cloth without a fight. There are movies of this: they are apparently quite striking, and should be on YouTube. I talked to a prof who showed these movies to students in a class at an Ivy league university: they really, really hated it. They should emigrate to a different reality – one of those probability lines outside the Blight, full of butt-kicking pixies, avuncular gay men, Melanesian super-hackers, and female Fields medalists. And unicorns.

    Later, he looked at Navaho babies: they’re like Chinese, only more so.

    Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    Fascinating. Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.

    California has so many half and quarter mixes I’ve noticed that Japanese mixes look whiter too, half Japanese can look almost 100% white sometimes, just vaguely asiatic like many Russians. One even had light brown hair and blue eyes. He was only the second light haired hapa I ever met, the other was an Indo-Dutch man staying at the same youth hostel room as me in Italy.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez

    Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.
     
    Agree. It's like Japanese were put on this earth to confound anyone who tries to over-generalize about Asians.
    , @Jefferson
    "Fascinating. Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.

    California has so many half and quarter mixes I’ve noticed that Japanese mixes look whiter too, half Japanese can look almost 100% white sometimes, just vaguely asiatic like many Russians. One even had light brown hair and blue eyes. He was only the second light haired hapa I ever met, the other was an Indo-Dutch man staying at the same youth hostel room as me in Italy."

    Dean Cain who is a quarter Japanese, played the White killer Scott Peterson in a Lifetime film. Dean Cain has a son with a White woman, so his son is only 1/8th Japanese.

  66. @Arclight
    Considering that many pit bulls are poorly trained, socialized, and encouraged to be aggressive, to the extent they receive any attention at all - just like their owners - this isn't at all surprising When I lived in a nearly all-black DC neighborhood, with a single exception it was the only breed of dog any of the black neighborhood residents owned. They were mostly left in the yard by themselves most of the time unless taken for a stroll around the area to show off, and I don't recall any being able to follow even rudimentary commands like "sit" or "heel."

    Some people argue that they aren't really any worse than other breeds and perhaps that's true if they have responsible owners, but in my observations they are often owned by people who don't value them as companions but as accessories to their gangsta image.

    At an animal shelter in a very black town in North Carolina, I was told they got about 2 dozen pit bulls each week from fighting rings being broken up.

  67. Low IQ idiots walking their pitbulls is one of many reasons not to live in a poor neighborhood. It is also one of many reasons to stop all low IQ and third world immigration. You basically only see young male hispanics with vicious breed dogs, never something cute, friendly, or interesting to look at. A well kept and beautiful rare breed dog brightens everyone day who sees it out walking and is always a white or asian owner.

    • Replies: @Francis G.
    In the Deep South I see plenty of white guys with pitbulls. I used to work with one white man who bred fight dogs. He had some very hair-raising stories.
  68. @Buzz Mohawk
    I am glad to see Steve writing about pitbulls. They are a dangerous breed often owned by ghetto people. The statistics are correct, but they don't show the sheer stupidity of ownership.

    Pitbulls have been outlawed in some states, and I think they should be everywhere.

    I do not stay this lightly. I grew up from age 10 with a German shepherd. Born to our family dog, he grew up with me. Together, we attended "obedience training," which is as much training for the human as the dog.

    My dog was my best friend for 15 years. Together, we traveled the United States, climbing mountains and hiking famous trails. Never did he bark at, growl at, or threaten a human being. He was too smart and well-trained for that -- even though he would have killed to protect me.

    Pitbull owners are morons. This is a biodiversity issue. The breed is idiotic, bred to fight and kill, but unpredictable and stupid. Pitbulls are useless. Get rid of them as fast as you can.

    As someone above pointed out, the Pit Bulls used as “catch dogs” for hog hunting are sound. They’re sound because the ones who are aggressive to other dogs or humans are culled immediately.

  69. It’s just fashion, right now it is fashionable for the assholes to own Pit Bulls. Even a Yorke can be a nasty little creature in the hands of an asshole.

  70. @Anonym
    Pretty much all dog fatalities come from sufficiently sized dogs. Most medium-large dogs will have sufficient jaw strength to be able to crunch through animal bones you might buy from a store. This is well and truly above the bite strength necessary to kill a child.

    There are bigger dogs with more muscle mass than pitbulls. What is not in doubt is that pitbulls kill more humans per capita than most other breeds of dog, and they are a fairly popular dog so the absolute number of fatalities is high relative to other dog breeds.

    And (this is directed more at others in the thread) yes, maybe you can put a pitbull in a home with an intelligent owner who trains the dog properly, doesn't leave the dog unsupervised with children, and lets the dog know its place. Unlikely to kill someone. And... you could put a class of inner-city dindus in with Ivy League nice white lady teachers, and maybe Trayvon plays midnight basketball instead of looking for houses to burgle. Maybe. But who cares. It's not scalable. A lot of people never train their pets, and this applies to a lot of pitbull owners. (A lot of lab owners likely never train their pets. By the logic of the PB apologists, shouldn't the labs have fatality rates up near the PBs?)

    It seems like a lot of what drives this is just SJWism. Dogs are bred for a purpose, and honestly is the pitbull the prime family or even protection dog? No. If you want to bait bulls, or dog fight especially on a p4p basis, yes, the pitbull is a good option. But there are far better and statistically safer dogs for protection or pets. SJW's get a woody from "saving the life" of a rescue animal. Ok. So the dog lived another 3-8 years before it eventually died. And it was neutered, so it left no offspring in any case. What was achieved? Color me unimpressed.

    (A lot of lab owners likely never train their pets. By the logic of the PB apologists, shouldn’t the labs have fatality rates up near the PBs?)

    Exactly.

  71. I’ve noticed that the owners of pitbulls are often seem a little scary, and often have strange piercings and tattoos. They also seem to frequently talk about how nice their dogs are.

  72. @Lot
    Fascinating. Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.

    California has so many half and quarter mixes I've noticed that Japanese mixes look whiter too, half Japanese can look almost 100% white sometimes, just vaguely asiatic like many Russians. One even had light brown hair and blue eyes. He was only the second light haired hapa I ever met, the other was an Indo-Dutch man staying at the same youth hostel room as me in Italy.

    Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.

    Agree. It’s like Japanese were put on this earth to confound anyone who tries to over-generalize about Asians.

    • Replies: @neon2
    Honorary Aryans, as I have had occasion to point out in the past.
  73. Gladwell: whenever there is uncertainty, immediately and confidently resolve it in the most comfortable way.

    Consequence: over the years, he has been proven wrong repeatedly.

  74. @Jack Hanson
    There are about 10,000 registered Cane Corso in the US, so it's likely more so that yes, pits are as violent as believed.

    However while the same shit heads who ruined pits are discovering corsos, their cachet and rarity make them cost prohibitive. There's also the not so small fact that most corso breeders won't sell to Deblackius who says "gimme dat bitey one".

    Jack Hanson, Mr. or Ms. CPK is a bit off base. My daughter owned a Cane Corso and they could chew and swallow a pit bull. Corsos are huge dogs, the Italian version of a Mastiff. All the guard and war dogs are descendants of Mastiffs. In Michigan about three or four years ago, a male and female Cane Corso dug out of their pen and caught up to a jogger. They shredded the poor bastard, mauled him to death. A neighbor shot at the dogs and even managed to hit one, but the attack was relentless. The owners were charged with a degree of murder, as they should be. My brother owned a Rottweiler, the predecessor of the pit bull craze. I would not let my children out of the car until the dog was in its pen.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    I own a Corso, and if Steve would moderate my comment you'd see my story about my bitch mauling an illegal alien sex offender to death when he went after my wife and kids.

    She was the runt of the litter. She weighs 120lbs. Her dad weighed over 160lbs. It is very easy to see the lines of the war hounds they were are not that far from the surface.

    That being said, she is excellent around my children, to the point where if I have to raise my voice she will interpose herself between me and the kid.
    , @CPK

    Mr. or Ms. CPK is a bit off base. My daughter owned a Cane Corso and they could chew and swallow a pit bull.
     
    Mr. -- and yes, I know the difference between a Cane Corso and a Pit Bull (and a Boxer, and a Dogo Argentino, etc.) The thing is that I'm not sure that most journalists know the difference -- and the Dogsbite.org data set is based entirely on media reports. My hypothesis is that journalists tend to use "pit bull" as lazy shorthand for any dog that was (1) involved in a violent incident and (2) isn't obviously some other breed that the journalist (who may well know nothing about dog breeds) is familiar with.

    It could be that "pit bulls" (however defined) are indeed more dangerous, but we need better data. Ideally, DNA tests for every dog that commits a fatal attack, showing the breed mix. This wouldn't be all that expensive -- it's just a logistics issue of getting samples from various local law enforcement agencies before the dogs involved are destroyed.
  75. @Lot
    Fascinating. Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.

    California has so many half and quarter mixes I've noticed that Japanese mixes look whiter too, half Japanese can look almost 100% white sometimes, just vaguely asiatic like many Russians. One even had light brown hair and blue eyes. He was only the second light haired hapa I ever met, the other was an Indo-Dutch man staying at the same youth hostel room as me in Italy.

    “Fascinating. Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.

    California has so many half and quarter mixes I’ve noticed that Japanese mixes look whiter too, half Japanese can look almost 100% white sometimes, just vaguely asiatic like many Russians. One even had light brown hair and blue eyes. He was only the second light haired hapa I ever met, the other was an Indo-Dutch man staying at the same youth hostel room as me in Italy.”

    Dean Cain who is a quarter Japanese, played the White killer Scott Peterson in a Lifetime film. Dean Cain has a son with a White woman, so his son is only 1/8th Japanese.

  76. Most rappers own at least 1 pitbull. Not many country music artists own pitbulls, if any.

  77. So a guy pops in to a biker bar and asks, “Who owns the pit bull chained up outside?” A nasty looking dude looks at the guy and says. “I do. Do you have a problem with that?’ The first guy replies, “Actually, I don’t have a problem, but you do. My dog just killed your dog.” The biker jumps off his barstool and screams, “Killed my dog? What type of dog do you have?” The first guy backs up a bit and answers ” A Chihuahua.” The biker looks at him and says, ” How the f*ck did a Chihuahua kill my pit bull?” The first guy turns to run and says over his shoulder…..”I think it got caught in his throat.”

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  78. People getting killed or maimed for life by an aggressive dog is terrible, but a couple of years ago two young boys, in Toronto, one actually an infant, were crushed to death by their parents’ “pet” Boa constrictor. I wanted to go to Toronto and tape plastic bags over the parents’ heads. People’s ideas of what constitutes a “pet” today are bizarre.

    • Replies: @Emilia
    I think the incident took place in Nova Scotia, not Toronto, if this is what you're talking about:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/n-s-snake-expert-shocked-by-attack-that-killed-2-boys-1.1340557
  79. To my understanding, the real danger of a pit bull is not that they fight more often (though they do) It is that they have been bred to continue fighting even after the opponent has signaled submission.

    Other breeds stop fighting once dominance has been established. But pit bulls keep going.

  80. @CommentGuy
    Your comment reads as though you are a pit bull owner.

    Almost all the bad things said about pit bulls are true--one of which is that they tend to attract dumb owners, though I do not mean to imply that you personally are dumb.

    Steve's choice of pit bull + tattoo image for this story is brilliant, and ensures that I will read this blog as long as it is maintained. Someone, preferably someone not averse to noticing, should really do some pit bull+tattoo research.

    My wife did some noticing of Things Unseen at the dog beach in Del Mar, CA, a pricey beach with an offshore reef that makes it very safe for rich old people and their beloved grandchildren: no pit bulls and non tattoos.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Sixty years ago it was exactly the same: I and my sisters were the grandchildren and our grandmother was, not yet sixty, the rich "old" person. No dangerous dogs, and tatoos were for sailors.
    But there was a tarantula, and I, aged six, became its proud owner. Until the adults noticed at least; then it died.
    Glad to learn that Del Mar hasn't much changed.
    , @Cagey Beast
    Oddly enough, the late William F. Buckley Jr had a large pit bull and marijuana leaf tattoo on his back that's similar to the one in the upper row. It's how the police identified him after a string of liquor store robberies in Maryland. At least I think it was Bill Buckley; might have been William Safire.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Since Del Mar is south of LA, how cold's the Pacific there? Because the Santa Monica region has some mighty cold waters. That part of the Pacific sure is freezing. Don't know how surfers in Santa Monica, Malibu, Pacific Palisades can surf with the waters that cold.

    In Honolulu the water is much warmer. Hope Del Mar has warm waters as well.

  81. @5371
    [Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.]

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.

    [Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.]

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.

    Don’t think that Cochran/Freedman is arguing that the Japanese are more closely related to Europeans than they are to the Chinese.

    It’s just the case that Freeman’s study indicates that Japanese infants are more “irritable.” So, an example of intra-East Asian variation.

    Personally, I would be very interested in seeing a cross comparison between European infants. Say, comparing Lithuanian infants to Sardinians.

  82. @Paul Mendez

    Japanese have always seemed closer to whites than Chinese and Korean, even though genetic distance to whites is all the same.
     
    Agree. It's like Japanese were put on this earth to confound anyone who tries to over-generalize about Asians.

    Honorary Aryans, as I have had occasion to point out in the past.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    But you must admit that the Japanese are bug-crazy in so, so many ways that Aryans are not.

    Shinto. Kawaii. Sick porn. Cheap Trick fandom. Robots. Sushi. Banzai charges. Hello Kitty.
    , @anon
    The Japanese are on the UN's kill list with Koreans and all (except one) of the recently white countries.

    http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm
  83. @Steve Sailer
    My wife did some noticing of Things Unseen at the dog beach in Del Mar, CA, a pricey beach with an offshore reef that makes it very safe for rich old people and their beloved grandchildren: no pit bulls and non tattoos.

    Sixty years ago it was exactly the same: I and my sisters were the grandchildren and our grandmother was, not yet sixty, the rich “old” person. No dangerous dogs, and tatoos were for sailors.
    But there was a tarantula, and I, aged six, became its proud owner. Until the adults noticed at least; then it died.
    Glad to learn that Del Mar hasn’t much changed.

  84. @CommentGuy
    Your comment reads as though you are a pit bull owner.

    Almost all the bad things said about pit bulls are true--one of which is that they tend to attract dumb owners, though I do not mean to imply that you personally are dumb.

    Steve's choice of pit bull + tattoo image for this story is brilliant, and ensures that I will read this blog as long as it is maintained. Someone, preferably someone not averse to noticing, should really do some pit bull+tattoo research.

    It is curious that this topic should have come up today: only this morning, in the beautiful and famously staid European city I live in, I noticed, and shied away from, a man and his pit bull.
    But I noticed to, and wondered at, this fact: the owner was a classic nerd: weedy, bent, pasty-faced, and diffident.
    This scared me all the more; if his beast had gone into attack mode, he would have been unable to do anything at all about it.

  85. My grandmother, who was a dog-breeder herself (prize-winning Schauzers), had a friend who DID breed gentle pitbulls. But that was 60 years ago.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Francis, There are different types of pit bulls.
  86. “My observation from walking down the sidewalk is that pitbulls are much more prevalent today in Los Angeles than a half century ago, when they were only vaguely heard of.”

    Half a century ago 1966, Los Angeles was a lot Whiter back than hence less pitbull owners.

  87. I love dogs (and cats, fancy rats — almost all the critters). I know the names of more dogs in my neighborhood than I do the names of neighbors. But I live in one of those pit bull areas — and my 3-year old grandson lives in this same ‘hood. I walk to his house, or he (accompanied, of course) walks to mine, and we have to pass God knows how many pit bulls to get to our destinations. It’s terrifying. Nothing between us and them but easily-jumpable chain-link fences, through which they’re always barking at us with seemingly murderous intent. The idea of one of those beasties making the leap and hurting my grandson — it can really freak me out imagining the utter horror of that. I so wish those pit bulls weren’t around.

  88. @Lot
    Low IQ idiots walking their pitbulls is one of many reasons not to live in a poor neighborhood. It is also one of many reasons to stop all low IQ and third world immigration. You basically only see young male hispanics with vicious breed dogs, never something cute, friendly, or interesting to look at. A well kept and beautiful rare breed dog brightens everyone day who sees it out walking and is always a white or asian owner.

    In the Deep South I see plenty of white guys with pitbulls. I used to work with one white man who bred fight dogs. He had some very hair-raising stories.

  89. Rottweilers and pitbulls were staples of 1990s Los Angeles gangsta rap music videos.

  90. Not a lot of African Americans and Hispanics like golden retrievers, because they see them as a White people dog and most NAMs do not want to culturally assimilate into Whiteness a.k.a mainstream American culture.

  91. The appearance of typical pro-pit bull arguments in the comments really demonstrates how limited HBD’s appeal is in the modern climate. People can’t even come to a reasonable consensus on the hereditary characteristics of dogs.

    In this blog’s comment section.

    Let that sink in for a bit.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    HBD theories probably would not exist if it weren't for the huge, incontrovertible body of evidence in the animal and plant worlds that supports racial diversities in form and substance. Race apparently describes separations existing between the family or line, and the specie levels. The question isn't whether pit bulls are innately more physically aggressive than most other races of dog. Obviously they are, for these qualities were selected through generations of careful and not so careful breeding.

    The question is whether these aggressive tendencies can override the fundamental predisposition toward pack bonding. Almost any dog can be trained, using immediate, firm, and consistent discipline, to tolerate other creatures, even cats and chickens. I doubt that even pit bulls are beyond redemption in this regard. The limiting factor is the attention and careful discipline that good behavior may require for an extra-aggressive individual. I suspect it is frequently lacking.

    On the other hand, although the number of pit bulls who have maimed or killed a human being is almost certainly negligible relative to the pit population, this fact will be of no consolation to the families of the dead.
  92. There were Chow dogs everywhere when I was a kid, but I rarely see them today. Pretty much every every kid I knew went through the experience of being pinned in a corner by a neighbor’s unruly chow dog after school once or twice.

    Long ago I had an idiot roommate with a Chow. He had no idea how to raise a dog, and no desire to learn. He couldn’t even housebreak it. So, I took on the job myself.

    Never seen a dog that untrainable. The 1/2 pit bull I grew up with and trained was a saint by comparison. I could get that dog to do anything except show aggression toward people (dogs were another matter entirely). I couldn’t even housebreak the Chow.

    Only idiots own pit bulls. No exceptions.

    So, I was half an idiot, until my dog died, then I graduated out of it. Good to know.

    Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don’t train it to be mean it won’t be. I guess that’s kind of the point though.

    Steve has it right; assorted, heavily black and brown scum have ruined the breed over the years. It used to be heavily policed for aggression against humans. This isn’t just a training thing, it’s also a breeding thing.

    My 1/2 pit was as sweet and loyal a dog as you’ll ever find. I guess IKAGO.

    These things are relentless.

    This is true. Dog breeders refer to it as “game.” Courage, determination, and loyalty, basically. It’s at a premium in certain working breeds.

    What separates the pit bull from dogs like shepherds and dobermans is the drive behind the aggression. Your typical shepherd has a strong defense drive; he typically bites when he feels he or his owner is in peril. Pit bulls, on the other hand, tend to have very low defense drive. In fact, most make terrible guard dogs and see all people as friends. Where it gets dangerous is when that inherent prey drive gets triggered (loud noise, fast movement) and the dog goes into aggressive mode.

    Rings as true.

    Trouble is, I’ll have to wait until that crazy bastard is in my yard before shooting, which means I’ll get one shot and have about 1.5 seconds to make it, if I don’t, I’ll find out first-hand if there is a God.

    People here are overestimating the fighting ability of a dog. A 60 lb dog is about 1/3 the weight of a grown man, and has only one useable weapon, its teeth. It’s not hard to wrestle a dog. Not fun, but not a death sentence, either. Picking it up and putting a WWF move on it can ruin it’s whole week. If you have a gun, give an attacking dog your arm and you can use all the bullets you want. Or just carry a knife, much more effective once the dog has closed the distance, anyway.

    I do not stay this lightly. I grew up from age 10 with a German shepherd. Born to our family dog, he grew up with me. Together, we attended “obedience training,” which is as much training for the human as the dog.

    My dog was my best friend for 15 years. Together, we traveled the United States, climbing mountains and hiking famous trails. Never did he bark at, growl at, or threaten a human being. He was too smart and well-trained for that — even though he would have killed to protect me.

    Pitbull owners are morons. This is a biodiversity issue. The breed is idiotic, bred to fight and kill, but unpredictable and stupid. Pitbulls are useless. Get rid of them as fast as you can.

    Funny, I had a pretty much identical experience with my 1/2 pit bull (I always thought he was full, but nobody knew who his daddy was, and I’ve been convinced after the fact that he was 1/2). Gosh, 1/2 a moron and only just now discovering it…

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Seems you apply the one drop rule to PBs. Makes sense in an analogous way.
    , @Anonymous
    They can and do kill women and children, and older men. That's the primary concern here. But healthy adult men are also at risk, because even though an adult male may be able to wrestle and restrain a pit bull, a pit bull can still manage to sink its teeth into the upper left thigh and rupture the femoral artery, which will result in death in a matter of minutes. That's where they like to lunge at, and they will lock on and try to rip out the artery.

    http://blog.dogsbite.org/2014/11/two-men-share-their-stories-of-life-threatening-pit-bull-attacks.html

    There is no question in my mind that the dog was intent on killing me. From what the doctors tell me, that bite right at my femoral artery, if she had managed to rip that out, there is no question that I would have bled out. Last year, I lost my dog to a big cat, we live up in the mountains. Since that time, when I go out in the forest country, I have carried a knife with me -- ready to defend myself in the case of a cat attack, I never expected to have a dog attack ... As he was ripping at the area over my femoral artery in my leg, I was able to sink the knife into him pretty deeply ... From everything I understand, pit bulls are not easy to give up their bite once they have something in their mouth. I was fortunate... -
     
    , @Anonymous
    I think you're taking this too personally. It's perfectly fine for rural folk to have pit bulls. We're talking about people who keep these dogs in dense suburban and urban areas with lots of people, kids, and pets around, where they're a danger to other people and dogs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjhHbNOtT9A
  93. Wait, ‘cept for the “he would have killed to protect me.” We trained the human-aggression out of our dog too well. Got my ass kicked in front of that dog and he did squat, just like he was trained.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I had a cocker spaniel when I was a child who was an aggressive pacifist. If some kid raised his voice at me, my dog would growl at him menacingly. If I raised my voice toward my friend, my dog would growl menacingly at me.
  94. The appearance of typical pro-pit bull arguments in the comments really demonstrates how limited HBD’s appeal is in the modern climate.

    No it doesn’t. HBD is “nature + nurture.” And admits behavioral gradients. Don’t blame your ignorance on others.

    • Agree: Anonym
    • Replies: @CommentGuy
    You blame pit bull behavior on "heavily black and brown scum."

    By the same logic, we know that any bad behavior from the black and brown scum is actually the fault of the evil white oppressor or stereotype threat or lead paint chips, etc.

    If you can see it in humans, but can't see it in dogs, you might be reading this blog for the wrong reasons.
  95. Other breeds stop fighting once dominance has been established. But pit bulls keep going.

    Nope. Mine got into lots of scrapes with other dogs, always started by other dogs, won every confrontation but one, and always stopped once he’d shown dominance.

    Maybe you guys should read a book or something, since many of you seem to know jack shit on the subject.

    • Replies: @Hosswire
    Got it. Not All Pit Bulls Are Like That.
  96. Full disclosure, my pitt was neutered. He was still pretty game, so yeah, otherwise he probably would’ve been quite a handful (NPI).

  97. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Arclight
    Considering that many pit bulls are poorly trained, socialized, and encouraged to be aggressive, to the extent they receive any attention at all - just like their owners - this isn't at all surprising When I lived in a nearly all-black DC neighborhood, with a single exception it was the only breed of dog any of the black neighborhood residents owned. They were mostly left in the yard by themselves most of the time unless taken for a stroll around the area to show off, and I don't recall any being able to follow even rudimentary commands like "sit" or "heel."

    Some people argue that they aren't really any worse than other breeds and perhaps that's true if they have responsible owners, but in my observations they are often owned by people who don't value them as companions but as accessories to their gangsta image.

    No, that’s not true. The idiot hipster pitbull owners these days love to make this argument, but it’s not true. It’s precisely because they’re so unpredictable even if raised well and comfortably that makes them so dangerous. Even if well treated and pampered, they can lash out violently. That’s why they’re more dangerous than most dogs, which have much more predictable behavior patterns.

  98. @Murray
    When my son was a toddler, he got knocked over by an extremely affectionate pit bull who stood astride him while he giggled on the ground. On one level, it was a charming scene, and no harm came to him, but you can bet that I got right in there to extricate him. He looked an awful lot like prey at that moment, and it would have been a nightmare if her kill switch had flipped at that moment.

    Here in Far North Portlandia, there are tons of pit bull blends in shelters, and we're a very SWPL town, so the ones I've met tend to be friendly and well-socialized. But the kill switch is always in the back of my mind.

    Standing over a child is a dominance display. There is nothing cute about it at all. Your gut was right… that was dangerous.

    Read the whole thing, but at least scroll down to the mastiff about 3/4 down the page.

    http://leerburg.com/kidbites.htm

    For additional info see:

    http://leerburg.com/dog_bites.htm

  99. @Jack Hanson
    My mother owns a pit bull she raised from a puppy, and it seems to straddle the lumpy couch potato/assault weapon line pretty well. She told me once a vibrant youf tried kicking in the door to her house in an apparent home invasion attempt and wasn't expecting an 80lb missile to maul him when the door flew open. When the police showed up she was able to reach over and grab him and he let go when she said so. This was after five minutes of mauling though IDK if maybe he was tired of his new toy or what.

    Mind you, this was a few years ago and other than that incident he seems to have gone right back to a lumpy couch potato who gets bossed around by two shih tzus. Your results may vary but I know he was raised well so there certainly is a nurture component.

    However I had an experience similar to an above poster where I was out walking the dog one night and two white trash youths set their dog on mine and cheered him up to the point my dog (what we thought was a chow/rott cross but turned out to be a Tibetan mastiff) disembowled theirs in the middle of the street.

    Tibetan Mastiffs are massive and pretty rare in the west. How did you not know the breed you owned?

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    The pound we got him from as a puppy said he was a Rottweiler/chow cross, and his litter had been discovered playing in a barn, abandoned. We had no reason to doubt them as he had Rottweiler coloration with chow puppy features and looked like a big teddy bear.

    He grew and became stickier and much larger than a chow, but we assumed that was just the Rottweiler influence. There is/was a service that is a dog 23andMe, and for a lark I sent his DNA away and came back with Tibetan Mastiff.

    This is pretty much what he looked like:
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2kXRz_oKVj8/maxresdefault.jpg
  100. @syonredux
    RE: Dog breeds

    Daniel Freedman was a professor of anthropology at the University of Chicago. For his doctoral thesis, he did adoption studies with dogs. He had noticed that different dog breeds had different personalities, and thought it would be interesting to see if personality was inborn, or if it was somehow caused by the way in which the mother raised her puppies. Totally inborn. Little beagles were irrepressibly friendly. Shetland sheepdogs were most sensitive to a loud voice or the slightest punishment. Wire-haired terriers were so tough and aggressive that Dan had to wear gloves when playing with puppies that were only three weeks old. Basenjis were aloof and independent.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    I am pleasantly surprised by the intellectual honesty of (((Freedman))). One of the biggest PB apologists I knew IRL was also, and it makes sense if one is going to be PC on race to also be PC on breed. Or is at least more coherent even if doubling down on wrong.

  101. I just had a kid and I’m looking to add a dog to the family. Is a Rottweiler the way to go?

    Keep in mind I’m like 98th percentile alpha. My kid seems super alpha too. My wife eh I married her for her looks.

  102. @Oldeguy
    America will continue have this tragic carnage until:

    1) it finally owns up to its centuries long oppression and degradation of pit bulls.

    2) Abolishes every disgraceful form of institutional Breedism ( e. g. denial of or higher rates for Homeowners Insurance for Pit Bull households ) that blights this nation founded on equality for all.

    3) Require that Labradors be required to attend Labrador Privilege Awareness training sessions.

    4) Finally have sufficient decency to address the national disgrace of Pit Bull over-incarceration in the nation's Dog pounds!

    5) And have sufficient honesty and humility to admit that The War On Bites was Breedist motivated and has been a spectacular failure.

    An excellent starting point but not complete.

    You forgot reparations and other forms of wealth transfer such as AA and welfare. Registrations of other dogs should be raised so that some of this money can be put aside for PB education.

    The Nazi eugenicist euthanizing and sterilizing of PBs in pounds must stop. We thought history ended sometime back in Fukuyama’s time but clearly it wasn’t quite finished.

    That there are other distinct breeds is a travesty. We need to ramp up the use of our soft power by producing enough content so that in every scene in which there is a dog, it features a male PB and a female of another breed. Yes, I know that breeds do not exist but we must do out best to try and identify the different breeds.

    PBs must get some of that environment that causes labs et al to be non-violent. To that end, they must be bussed in to receive their training in schools in proximity with other dogs.

  103. @Svigor
    Wait, 'cept for the "he would have killed to protect me." We trained the human-aggression out of our dog too well. Got my ass kicked in front of that dog and he did squat, just like he was trained.

    I had a cocker spaniel when I was a child who was an aggressive pacifist. If some kid raised his voice at me, my dog would growl at him menacingly. If I raised my voice toward my friend, my dog would growl menacingly at me.

  104. @Threecranes
    "They’re not that attractive."

    I would never own a breed of dog where I had to stare at its as*hole whenever it was facing away from me. Call me a prude, but I prefer border collies.

    Or Goldens, who demurely hold their tales in a lovely and modest down-and-up curve.

  105. @Svigor

    There were Chow dogs everywhere when I was a kid, but I rarely see them today. Pretty much every every kid I knew went through the experience of being pinned in a corner by a neighbor’s unruly chow dog after school once or twice.
     
    Long ago I had an idiot roommate with a Chow. He had no idea how to raise a dog, and no desire to learn. He couldn't even housebreak it. So, I took on the job myself.

    Never seen a dog that untrainable. The 1/2 pit bull I grew up with and trained was a saint by comparison. I could get that dog to do anything except show aggression toward people (dogs were another matter entirely). I couldn't even housebreak the Chow.

    Only idiots own pit bulls. No exceptions.
     
    So, I was half an idiot, until my dog died, then I graduated out of it. Good to know.

    Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don’t train it to be mean it won’t be. I guess that’s kind of the point though.
     
    Steve has it right; assorted, heavily black and brown scum have ruined the breed over the years. It used to be heavily policed for aggression against humans. This isn't just a training thing, it's also a breeding thing.

    My 1/2 pit was as sweet and loyal a dog as you'll ever find. I guess IKAGO.

    These things are relentless.
     
    This is true. Dog breeders refer to it as "game." Courage, determination, and loyalty, basically. It's at a premium in certain working breeds.

    What separates the pit bull from dogs like shepherds and dobermans is the drive behind the aggression. Your typical shepherd has a strong defense drive; he typically bites when he feels he or his owner is in peril. Pit bulls, on the other hand, tend to have very low defense drive. In fact, most make terrible guard dogs and see all people as friends. Where it gets dangerous is when that inherent prey drive gets triggered (loud noise, fast movement) and the dog goes into aggressive mode.
     
    Rings as true.

    Trouble is, I’ll have to wait until that crazy bastard is in my yard before shooting, which means I’ll get one shot and have about 1.5 seconds to make it, if I don’t, I’ll find out first-hand if there is a God.
     
    People here are overestimating the fighting ability of a dog. A 60 lb dog is about 1/3 the weight of a grown man, and has only one useable weapon, its teeth. It's not hard to wrestle a dog. Not fun, but not a death sentence, either. Picking it up and putting a WWF move on it can ruin it's whole week. If you have a gun, give an attacking dog your arm and you can use all the bullets you want. Or just carry a knife, much more effective once the dog has closed the distance, anyway.

    I do not stay this lightly. I grew up from age 10 with a German shepherd. Born to our family dog, he grew up with me. Together, we attended “obedience training,” which is as much training for the human as the dog.

    My dog was my best friend for 15 years. Together, we traveled the United States, climbing mountains and hiking famous trails. Never did he bark at, growl at, or threaten a human being. He was too smart and well-trained for that — even though he would have killed to protect me.

    Pitbull owners are morons. This is a biodiversity issue. The breed is idiotic, bred to fight and kill, but unpredictable and stupid. Pitbulls are useless. Get rid of them as fast as you can.
     
    Funny, I had a pretty much identical experience with my 1/2 pit bull (I always thought he was full, but nobody knew who his daddy was, and I've been convinced after the fact that he was 1/2). Gosh, 1/2 a moron and only just now discovering it...

    Seems you apply the one drop rule to PBs. Makes sense in an analogous way.

  106. @Buffalo Joe
    Jack Hanson, Mr. or Ms. CPK is a bit off base. My daughter owned a Cane Corso and they could chew and swallow a pit bull. Corsos are huge dogs, the Italian version of a Mastiff. All the guard and war dogs are descendants of Mastiffs. In Michigan about three or four years ago, a male and female Cane Corso dug out of their pen and caught up to a jogger. They shredded the poor bastard, mauled him to death. A neighbor shot at the dogs and even managed to hit one, but the attack was relentless. The owners were charged with a degree of murder, as they should be. My brother owned a Rottweiler, the predecessor of the pit bull craze. I would not let my children out of the car until the dog was in its pen.

    I own a Corso, and if Steve would moderate my comment you’d see my story about my bitch mauling an illegal alien sex offender to death when he went after my wife and kids.

    She was the runt of the litter. She weighs 120lbs. Her dad weighed over 160lbs. It is very easy to see the lines of the war hounds they were are not that far from the surface.

    That being said, she is excellent around my children, to the point where if I have to raise my voice she will interpose herself between me and the kid.

    • Replies: @utu
    "I own a Corso,"..."my bitch mauling an illegal alien sex offender to death when he went after my wife and kids."

    You confabulate.
  107. @Erik L
    It's actually the other way around. Until the 1970s pits were extremely dog aggressive and and very unaggressive towards humans. The reason was dogfighting. In a proper match each owner might have to put his hands on either dog. Any dog that would bite a human would not be bred.

    Since the 1970s that has been less and less the case. Pitbulls are strong enough to meet the macho image needs of a certain kind of owner and were also much cheaper than rotties. Decades of bad breeding by irresponsible owners created the problem.

    That said I still like those dogs. Most of them I have met have been sweethearts

    Or Goldens, who demurely hold their tales in a lovely and modest down-and-up curve.

  108. @Sal Paradise
    Pit bulls need an "alpha" owner or they can quickly become a disaster. It's not necessarily their disposition per say; it's their overall strength.

    Anyone who thinks all dog breeds are the same btw are crazy. That said, they're probably all better than cats.

    How dare you Sir! Rabbits maybe (sorry Steve) not cats!

  109. And tithing during the first half of the 20th century them pit bulls were a close family members on a bunch of farms throughout the south and Midwest. The first AKA champion was a pit bull.

  110. @carol
    it's pretty bloody obvious to me that people buy these dogs to express their inner hostility to the world. something very weak and gamma about the owners.

    You obviously don’t know an owner one carol. I’m sensing hostilities in your post.

  111. @Threecranes
    I doubt that many pit bull owners take the trouble to "train" the dog at all.

    And (in response to Steve's query above) I doubt that many take the trouble to selectively "breed" the dog, or have intelligence and foresight to carry out any operation the results of which are not seen for generations.

    In my experience, which has included having my dog mauled on a public street by a neighbor's pit bull, the owners are drug dealers or society's discontents who want a guard dog to alert them to strangers and more especially the Law. Owning a pit bull is a badge or mark of membership for them.

    When my dog was attacked by an unrestrained pit bull my wife pepper sprayed it (which caused it to release its death grip on my dog's neck) simultaneously I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull's head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. Luckily, the owner with kids in tow had showed up by then and managed to subdue it. Ever since then I have carried my legally licensed concealed pistol when walking the dog. Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot. This attack wasn't the first. The first time, my dog bolted in retreat and jerked my wife backward so that she fell hindmost into a ditch. The police are indifferent. There is no law against a dog killing another dog in my state. To settle, an aggrieved owner must pursue justice on their own initiative through civil courts. Only if the dog bites you do the police take action.

    “I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull’s head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. ”

    Could you have smacked its head against the concrete, or was that a little too close for comfort? I recognize that swinging a 60 lb object takes a significant amount of effort.

  112. @Threecranes
    Problem is people like you who misdirect and disinform by insisting that the "Problem is bad owners."

    Even if we eliminated people like you...
    and even if we eliminated bad owners...
    Pitbull problems would persist.

    So, should we eliminate (1) your kind?
    (2) Pitbull owners?
    (3) Or pitbulls?

    Choose one.

    how about we just eliminate you?

  113. @Anonym
    Tibetan Mastiffs are massive and pretty rare in the west. How did you not know the breed you owned?

    The pound we got him from as a puppy said he was a Rottweiler/chow cross, and his litter had been discovered playing in a barn, abandoned. We had no reason to doubt them as he had Rottweiler coloration with chow puppy features and looked like a big teddy bear.

    He grew and became stickier and much larger than a chow, but we assumed that was just the Rottweiler influence. There is/was a service that is a dog 23andMe, and for a lark I sent his DNA away and came back with Tibetan Mastiff.

    This is pretty much what he looked like:

  114. Interesting topic but a bit off in terms relative risk. Your children are vastly more likely to get killed by a car than a pitbull.

    This is probably a vestige of our long history as animals, cars have only been a danger for 100 years versus millions for dangerous animals.

  115. @Steve Sailer
    My wife did some noticing of Things Unseen at the dog beach in Del Mar, CA, a pricey beach with an offshore reef that makes it very safe for rich old people and their beloved grandchildren: no pit bulls and non tattoos.

    Oddly enough, the late William F. Buckley Jr had a large pit bull and marijuana leaf tattoo on his back that’s similar to the one in the upper row. It’s how the police identified him after a string of liquor store robberies in Maryland. At least I think it was Bill Buckley; might have been William Safire.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    LOL

    I find it ironic that young people will spend all of their parents' money on clothes, but they still want tattoos, which are forever.
  116. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Svigor

    There were Chow dogs everywhere when I was a kid, but I rarely see them today. Pretty much every every kid I knew went through the experience of being pinned in a corner by a neighbor’s unruly chow dog after school once or twice.
     
    Long ago I had an idiot roommate with a Chow. He had no idea how to raise a dog, and no desire to learn. He couldn't even housebreak it. So, I took on the job myself.

    Never seen a dog that untrainable. The 1/2 pit bull I grew up with and trained was a saint by comparison. I could get that dog to do anything except show aggression toward people (dogs were another matter entirely). I couldn't even housebreak the Chow.

    Only idiots own pit bulls. No exceptions.
     
    So, I was half an idiot, until my dog died, then I graduated out of it. Good to know.

    Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don’t train it to be mean it won’t be. I guess that’s kind of the point though.
     
    Steve has it right; assorted, heavily black and brown scum have ruined the breed over the years. It used to be heavily policed for aggression against humans. This isn't just a training thing, it's also a breeding thing.

    My 1/2 pit was as sweet and loyal a dog as you'll ever find. I guess IKAGO.

    These things are relentless.
     
    This is true. Dog breeders refer to it as "game." Courage, determination, and loyalty, basically. It's at a premium in certain working breeds.

    What separates the pit bull from dogs like shepherds and dobermans is the drive behind the aggression. Your typical shepherd has a strong defense drive; he typically bites when he feels he or his owner is in peril. Pit bulls, on the other hand, tend to have very low defense drive. In fact, most make terrible guard dogs and see all people as friends. Where it gets dangerous is when that inherent prey drive gets triggered (loud noise, fast movement) and the dog goes into aggressive mode.
     
    Rings as true.

    Trouble is, I’ll have to wait until that crazy bastard is in my yard before shooting, which means I’ll get one shot and have about 1.5 seconds to make it, if I don’t, I’ll find out first-hand if there is a God.
     
    People here are overestimating the fighting ability of a dog. A 60 lb dog is about 1/3 the weight of a grown man, and has only one useable weapon, its teeth. It's not hard to wrestle a dog. Not fun, but not a death sentence, either. Picking it up and putting a WWF move on it can ruin it's whole week. If you have a gun, give an attacking dog your arm and you can use all the bullets you want. Or just carry a knife, much more effective once the dog has closed the distance, anyway.

    I do not stay this lightly. I grew up from age 10 with a German shepherd. Born to our family dog, he grew up with me. Together, we attended “obedience training,” which is as much training for the human as the dog.

    My dog was my best friend for 15 years. Together, we traveled the United States, climbing mountains and hiking famous trails. Never did he bark at, growl at, or threaten a human being. He was too smart and well-trained for that — even though he would have killed to protect me.

    Pitbull owners are morons. This is a biodiversity issue. The breed is idiotic, bred to fight and kill, but unpredictable and stupid. Pitbulls are useless. Get rid of them as fast as you can.
     
    Funny, I had a pretty much identical experience with my 1/2 pit bull (I always thought he was full, but nobody knew who his daddy was, and I've been convinced after the fact that he was 1/2). Gosh, 1/2 a moron and only just now discovering it...

    They can and do kill women and children, and older men. That’s the primary concern here. But healthy adult men are also at risk, because even though an adult male may be able to wrestle and restrain a pit bull, a pit bull can still manage to sink its teeth into the upper left thigh and rupture the femoral artery, which will result in death in a matter of minutes. That’s where they like to lunge at, and they will lock on and try to rip out the artery.

    http://blog.dogsbite.org/2014/11/two-men-share-their-stories-of-life-threatening-pit-bull-attacks.html

    There is no question in my mind that the dog was intent on killing me. From what the doctors tell me, that bite right at my femoral artery, if she had managed to rip that out, there is no question that I would have bled out. Last year, I lost my dog to a big cat, we live up in the mountains. Since that time, when I go out in the forest country, I have carried a knife with me — ready to defend myself in the case of a cat attack, I never expected to have a dog attack … As he was ripping at the area over my femoral artery in my leg, I was able to sink the knife into him pretty deeply … From everything I understand, pit bulls are not easy to give up their bite once they have something in their mouth. I was fortunate… –

  117. @Erik L
    Next pitbull that attacks you, how will you decide whether to shoot your wife or the pit?

    Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot.

    Next pitbull that attacks you, how will you decide whether to shoot your wife or the pit?

    Ok, funny, but mean.

    Another good reason unz should give us more time to edit our comments.

    • Disagree: Stephen R. Diamond
  118. @Anonymous
    I bet that standard poodles account for exactly zero fatalities. Probably zero fatal attacks ever. Despite the fact that they are only slightly smaller than German Shepherds, with bigger teeth. Poodles are elderly Japanese lady's equivalent as far as killings go.

    Poodles are dumber than a box of rocks.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Wrong. Poodles are in Top 5 of all breed intelligence lists. http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/smartest-dogs/

    Now, there are three kinds of poodles, depending in size. The biggest is Standard, also the smartest. The tiny Toys are pretty dumb but that is to be expected be expected - their brain is tiny. The intermediate-size Miniature poodles are in between, and have a high variance - some are extremely smart and some are indeed dumber than a box of rocks.
  119. @Svigor

    There were Chow dogs everywhere when I was a kid, but I rarely see them today. Pretty much every every kid I knew went through the experience of being pinned in a corner by a neighbor’s unruly chow dog after school once or twice.
     
    Long ago I had an idiot roommate with a Chow. He had no idea how to raise a dog, and no desire to learn. He couldn't even housebreak it. So, I took on the job myself.

    Never seen a dog that untrainable. The 1/2 pit bull I grew up with and trained was a saint by comparison. I could get that dog to do anything except show aggression toward people (dogs were another matter entirely). I couldn't even housebreak the Chow.

    Only idiots own pit bulls. No exceptions.
     
    So, I was half an idiot, until my dog died, then I graduated out of it. Good to know.

    Rumor has it if you buy a pitbull and don’t train it to be mean it won’t be. I guess that’s kind of the point though.
     
    Steve has it right; assorted, heavily black and brown scum have ruined the breed over the years. It used to be heavily policed for aggression against humans. This isn't just a training thing, it's also a breeding thing.

    My 1/2 pit was as sweet and loyal a dog as you'll ever find. I guess IKAGO.

    These things are relentless.
     
    This is true. Dog breeders refer to it as "game." Courage, determination, and loyalty, basically. It's at a premium in certain working breeds.

    What separates the pit bull from dogs like shepherds and dobermans is the drive behind the aggression. Your typical shepherd has a strong defense drive; he typically bites when he feels he or his owner is in peril. Pit bulls, on the other hand, tend to have very low defense drive. In fact, most make terrible guard dogs and see all people as friends. Where it gets dangerous is when that inherent prey drive gets triggered (loud noise, fast movement) and the dog goes into aggressive mode.
     
    Rings as true.

    Trouble is, I’ll have to wait until that crazy bastard is in my yard before shooting, which means I’ll get one shot and have about 1.5 seconds to make it, if I don’t, I’ll find out first-hand if there is a God.
     
    People here are overestimating the fighting ability of a dog. A 60 lb dog is about 1/3 the weight of a grown man, and has only one useable weapon, its teeth. It's not hard to wrestle a dog. Not fun, but not a death sentence, either. Picking it up and putting a WWF move on it can ruin it's whole week. If you have a gun, give an attacking dog your arm and you can use all the bullets you want. Or just carry a knife, much more effective once the dog has closed the distance, anyway.

    I do not stay this lightly. I grew up from age 10 with a German shepherd. Born to our family dog, he grew up with me. Together, we attended “obedience training,” which is as much training for the human as the dog.

    My dog was my best friend for 15 years. Together, we traveled the United States, climbing mountains and hiking famous trails. Never did he bark at, growl at, or threaten a human being. He was too smart and well-trained for that — even though he would have killed to protect me.

    Pitbull owners are morons. This is a biodiversity issue. The breed is idiotic, bred to fight and kill, but unpredictable and stupid. Pitbulls are useless. Get rid of them as fast as you can.
     
    Funny, I had a pretty much identical experience with my 1/2 pit bull (I always thought he was full, but nobody knew who his daddy was, and I've been convinced after the fact that he was 1/2). Gosh, 1/2 a moron and only just now discovering it...

    I think you’re taking this too personally. It’s perfectly fine for rural folk to have pit bulls. We’re talking about people who keep these dogs in dense suburban and urban areas with lots of people, kids, and pets around, where they’re a danger to other people and dogs.

  120. @Svigor

    The appearance of typical pro-pit bull arguments in the comments really demonstrates how limited HBD’s appeal is in the modern climate.
     
    No it doesn't. HBD is "nature + nurture." And admits behavioral gradients. Don't blame your ignorance on others.

    You blame pit bull behavior on “heavily black and brown scum.”

    By the same logic, we know that any bad behavior from the black and brown scum is actually the fault of the evil white oppressor or stereotype threat or lead paint chips, etc.

    If you can see it in humans, but can’t see it in dogs, you might be reading this blog for the wrong reasons.

  121. @Anonym
    On Steve's original topic: The Doberman made sense in the Pacific Theater because it had a short coat which suited the hot weather. Of course, it had other good qualities.

    Dogs are very much subject to fashion. A movie or TV show does wonders for popularity. The rap lifestyle has done wonders for the popularity of the pit. Two things that made Dobermans popular back 30-40 years ago:
    1. The Omen.
    2. Magnum PI.

    The decay in popularity back to baseline is due to the fact that these pop culture artifacts were of the 1970s and 1980s, which is some 25+ years ago.

    Breeding for many breeds has become ossified and eccentric according to the whims of the AKC and dog shows. The Doberman and GSD breeds have become bifurcated between European and American lines. The Europeans are often bred for Schutzhund or sourced from animals bred for those requirements. As a result they are generally more robust, hardier, working animals with the correct instincts. The Americans are more "pretty" show ponies. (I think there is beauty in functional correctness, but I'm probably the minority there.) Think bodybuilding vs MMA. Or bodybuilding vs training to be a cop, which is probably more analogous to Schutzhund. And if you specifically took a bunch of top bodybuilders and daughters of other top buildbuilders and bred them over several generations. And you did the same thing with cops. If you wanted cop-like behavior, you wouldn't go with the bodybuilder line, would you, even though they'd probably really nail that "most muscular" pose, just by instinct.

    I don't know how that plays out with fatality rates, but I understand that in Europe the Schutzhund dogs are screened for unsuitable temperament.

    There are loads of better protection dogs than the PB. A lot have been bred and battle-tested in areas subject to less civilized forms of humanity. For example, the South African Boerboel, and the Fila Brasiliero (again, types of Molosser breeds). Google them. They are really interesting. I think due to the internet we will see the rise in popularity of heretofore unusual dogs (in the west) to the extent that people want a protection dog vs a fighting dog, and can afford the dog food. (This kind of goes along with importing the less civilized people from those countries - you need the rest of what passes for their sh***y infrastructure.)

    It's kind of like employer-driven immigration. Want a coder? Get an Indian. Want a fruit picker? Get a Mexican. Want a female who will have sex with you despite your obnoxious/creepy personality? South-East Asian or Eastern European depending on taste.

    At least dogs don't bloc vote to transfer all your wealth to them, while dissolving whatever bonds of nation you once felt through miscegenation.

    Anonym, Doberman was the dog in “Boys from Brazil.”

  122. After having children, I hate pit bulls.

  123. @Francis G.
    My grandmother, who was a dog-breeder herself (prize-winning Schauzers), had a friend who DID breed gentle pitbulls. But that was 60 years ago.

    Francis, There are different types of pit bulls.

  124. @Svigor

    Other breeds stop fighting once dominance has been established. But pit bulls keep going.
     
    Nope. Mine got into lots of scrapes with other dogs, always started by other dogs, won every confrontation but one, and always stopped once he'd shown dominance.

    Maybe you guys should read a book or something, since many of you seem to know jack shit on the subject.

    Got it. Not All Pit Bulls Are Like That.

  125. @CommentGuy
    Your comment reads as though you are a pit bull owner.

    Almost all the bad things said about pit bulls are true--one of which is that they tend to attract dumb owners, though I do not mean to imply that you personally are dumb.

    Steve's choice of pit bull + tattoo image for this story is brilliant, and ensures that I will read this blog as long as it is maintained. Someone, preferably someone not averse to noticing, should really do some pit bull+tattoo research.

    No, I’m not a pit bull owner, but I’ve worked with a lot of dogs as a shelter volunteer. Based on that experience, I found that the article went off the rails almost immediately:

    dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise

    No. Really, just, no. Even experienced vets can’t do more than make an educated guess at breed mix, and those guesses aren’t very reliable. If we don’t have a pedigree, or even better a DNA test, then we don’t know the breed. Full stop, end of research project.

    Dogsbite.org is relying on journalists for breed identification (their data set is based on media reports). Maybe there are some very conscientious journalists who won’t call a dog a “pit bull” until they’ve seen its AKC papers. But I suspect that, when reporting what are literally “dog bites man” stories, they (or their sources) simply fall back on the lazy stereotype that violent dog = “pit bull” until proven otherwise.

    Granted, the stereotype may become self-fulfilling: thugs are attracted to pit bulls because of their violent reputation, then train the dogs to live up to that reputation. But if so, pit bull violence (to the extent it’s a thing) is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated — not anything inherent to the breed.

    Again, there’s a precise analogy with guns, crime and gun control: the problem is the thug himself, not the otherwise-legal instruments he puts to thuggish ends.

    • Replies: @CommentGuy
    Perhaps you have not owned any pit bulls, but in identifying yourself as a "shelter volunteer" and putting forth the usual range of surreptitiously emotional arguments, you have outed yourself as a member of the Anti-Racist Dog Brigade.

    Surely we recognize that the greyhound is unusually well-equipped to run sprints. We also recognize that this is primarily a function of genetics when compared to other breeds. Yet, for some reason, the extremely outsized damage caused by pit bulls is "is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated — not anything inherent to the breed." Now, you might retort with the previous nonsense about breed misidentification, and I will in turn request that you re-familiarize yourself with the breeding history of pit bulls and the nature of supply and demand economics as it pertains to dog fighting and gambling. What reason would there be for the overwhelming dominance of pit bulls in the dog fight game? Surely, not misidentification or confirmation bias. Or is this kinda like the wage gap, where the greedy corporations have yet to figure out that you can hire an entire staff of brilliant females for 77% of what their male counterparts would cost?

    One more obnoxious question: How many tattoos do you have?

    , @Anonymous
    "Pit bulls" aren't a specific breed, so that's not any kind of serious counter-argument. "Pit bull" refers to a general category of dogs that encompasses a variety of different breeds and crosses that trace their heritage to bull-baiting in England until the 19th century.
    , @Yinzer
    Very good & accurate comment. I'm another "right wing nut" who is also involved in dog rescues & fostering. Our numbers are growing. Contrary to some of the idiots posting comments, lots of men are in now involved. Know very macho police men, MMA practitioners & bikers who volunteer.
    Noticed Alt Right attracts lots of animal lovers. Think b/c they notice diversity and animal welfare do not go together.
  126. @Anthony
    Pit Bulls were breed to be dog-aggressive, and are a big risk around other dogs. They can be trained to be human-aggressive, and in the ghetto, often are. (It's easy, and suits ghetto-dwellers, because the training is basically abuse.)

    It's possible that between training for human-aggression and the environment of street dogs, that the general pit bull population is becoming more human-aggressive. I'd be wary of a shelter pit bull, but less worried about one from a breeder who tried to avoid aggression.

    Incidentally, the pit body seems to be more dominant, genetically, while the personality seems to be more recessive - most of the pit mixes I've met have much more the personality of the other breed, while looking more like pit bulls in shape. Don't ever breed a pit bull with a Chihuahua.

    Human aggression has been bred out of most breeds, except guard dogs. Of course a guard dog with no self-restraint and no training potential is useless. Alsatians and other shepherd dogs are popular because they can be trained, not because they are mean, though they can be when needed.
    This does not seem to be the case with pit-bulls: though not particularly prone to human aggression, (most likely they’ve got an innate fighting drive regardless of the prey) they can snap far too easily and this defect has not been bred out but encouraged.
    I guess you could say that pit-bulls are the NAMs of the canine world. Eugenics is badly needed but impossible to achieve.

  127. Petey from the Little Rascals was a Pit bull. To the last point in the article I believe the converse has already happened. The original breed was aggressive to animals but not humans and over time they have been bred bigger with defective temperaments and have idiot often abusive owners.

    I do believe these dogs were fairly common in the US before and were not particularly known for killing people

  128. @neon2
    Honorary Aryans, as I have had occasion to point out in the past.

    But you must admit that the Japanese are bug-crazy in so, so many ways that Aryans are not.

    Shinto. Kawaii. Sick porn. Cheap Trick fandom. Robots. Sushi. Banzai charges. Hello Kitty.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    And tails. They got tails, like my grandpa said. And can wag them. Unlike pitbulls.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvHcBq7UaY0&feature=youtu.be
  129. I also have mixed feelings about the breed because my parents adopted one from my sister’s idiot HS boyfriend who could not care for it.

    Without question the best damn dog I have ever been around. So smart, so gentle and a true companion. One quality of the bred is they relate very well to their human families.

    On the other hand I often don’t want to be around other people’s dogs in general but especially this bred often

  130. @Arclight
    Considering that many pit bulls are poorly trained, socialized, and encouraged to be aggressive, to the extent they receive any attention at all - just like their owners - this isn't at all surprising When I lived in a nearly all-black DC neighborhood, with a single exception it was the only breed of dog any of the black neighborhood residents owned. They were mostly left in the yard by themselves most of the time unless taken for a stroll around the area to show off, and I don't recall any being able to follow even rudimentary commands like "sit" or "heel."

    Some people argue that they aren't really any worse than other breeds and perhaps that's true if they have responsible owners, but in my observations they are often owned by people who don't value them as companions but as accessories to their gangsta image.

    It’s in their DNA for centuries, even going back to the Romans. That’s what they were bred for, to literally fight and potentially kill a BULL, in a PIT. Anything with the word “Bull” in the breed’s name tells the story.

    Dr. Stanley Coren, a noted dog expert, traced the various main breeds. Pit Bulls, like Akitas, Dobermans, Rottweilers, etc. were the guard dogs category/group. They were bred for a specific purpose only: To kill intruders, invaders, or to fight and kill in the ring for dog killing. Betting on dog fights goes back to Roman times and was quite popular in England during the Middle Ages. King James I was quite an avid watcher of dogfights. Allegedly one bull type dog was said to have fought vs a lion and “won” in that he did’t die and drew blood. The Puritans frowned on this type of barbaric cruelty vs animals in general but the only concession they received from James was the promise to ban all dogfighting on Sundays. But usually these dogs were bred specifically to fight vs other dogs or other prey and kill them in the ring (or pit). Actually people like Michael Vick and others who profited off of dogfighting can lay claim to history, since the types of dogs they usually choose to fight in the rings are doing the work of their bloodline ancestors of yore.

    And, which dogs do you think these pits “train” on before they step into the ring? Usually smaller weaker dogs that are stolen by various operators of illegal dog fights.

    They are like assassins. They are killers because its in their DNA and not something so easily bred out of if you keep the bloodlines pure.

  131. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    It's my sense that a lot of the people who have pitbulls have them as a sort of quasi-legal weapon they can bring with them in public (It could be my imagination, but it seems like I see a lot more people walking them in urban areas in states with dick-ish gun laws, or look like they could be a convicted felon (or both)).

    Bingo. People own ‘dangerous’ dogs for the same reason they own guns – personal and household defense. If you’re not allowed to own a gun a dog is a pretty good substitute.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Bingo. People own ‘dangerous’ dogs for the same reason they own guns – personal and household defense. If you’re not allowed to own a gun a dog is a pretty good substitute."

    Dindu Nuffins who own rottweilers and pitbulls also tend to be strapped with gats as well. So I don't buy the personal and household defense excuse for gangbangers getting these types of dogs.
  132. The most dangerous breed of dog is…the Caucasian Mountain dog. Seriously. Google it.

    I used to think of Pit Bulls as white biker dogs. Maybe they were 25 years ago. Now it seems the Pit Bull is a minority dog.

    Regardless, Rots, Dobermans, Pit Bulls and the like appeal big time to people who’ve been in prison and won’t ever be allowed to own guns (legally.) Big and/or vicious dogs are a legal way for them to project the threat of lethal violence towards others.

    To be fair, nasty dogs also a way for ex-cons protect themselves and their families, should they live in a crappy neighborhood, which most do. Of course, if the Pit Bull starts chewing on one of the children, well…Terriers (which Pit Bulls are) were generally bred to kill, and not much else. Most other categories of dog, no matter now big, haven’t been, at least not in the modern world.

  133. I used to own a Belgian Malinois. She was like a loaded gun. A smallish dog topping out at about 55 lbs. but could absolutely run like greased lightening and was impervious to any fence. Very alpha bitch and did not get along well with other dogs at all; and not much better with humans particularly strangers. Not afraid of anything., cats would run like hell from her.

  134. @Gargamel
    Bingo. People own 'dangerous' dogs for the same reason they own guns - personal and household defense. If you're not allowed to own a gun a dog is a pretty good substitute.

    “Bingo. People own ‘dangerous’ dogs for the same reason they own guns – personal and household defense. If you’re not allowed to own a gun a dog is a pretty good substitute.”

    Dindu Nuffins who own rottweilers and pitbulls also tend to be strapped with gats as well. So I don’t buy the personal and household defense excuse for gangbangers getting these types of dogs.

  135. @YIH
    It isn't a matter of how ''mean'' or not a pitbull is. It's their strength, physically they are the most muscular and strongest breed of dog. In fact, the name itself came from the practice of 'bull baiting' where such dogs fought with adult bulls. When bull baiting was outlawed, fighting switched to dog-on-dog, the only breeds that could hold their own against pits were chows, rottweilers, and of course, other pits/pit mixes.
    ''Pitbulls, which aren’t particularly big'' is a bit in error, they are considered large dogs and their weight (full blood pit) can range from about 60-100 lbs. They have shorter legs than other large breeds, and a 'stocky' build.
    Most of the pit-related deaths are of children, kids abuse/mistreat them and the dog reacts to what it perceives as an attack as any dog would. The difference is the dog is stronger than the child and often outweighs it as well. The other problem is while ''they lock their jaws'' is a myth they do have a lot of jaw strength and they were bred to hold on to whatever they bite down on.
    The popularity is due to the 'ghetto' image (illegal fights are not unusual, google Michael Vick) and the fact that it's difficult for an adult to fight them off if attacked.
    A sad side effect of the trend is cops will routinely shoot any dog they come across - no matter what size or threat.

    If you google “which dog breeds are most aggressive” the results (FWTW) suggest that the most aggressive breeds are small dogs.

    https://petolog.com/articles/most-aggressive-dogs

    But a daschund can’t do you much damage, while a rottie or a Rhodesian Ridgeback can.

  136. @Paul Mendez
    But you must admit that the Japanese are bug-crazy in so, so many ways that Aryans are not.

    Shinto. Kawaii. Sick porn. Cheap Trick fandom. Robots. Sushi. Banzai charges. Hello Kitty.

    And tails. They got tails, like my grandpa said. And can wag them. Unlike pitbulls.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvHcBq7UaY0&feature=youtu.be

  137. @CPK
    No, I'm not a pit bull owner, but I've worked with a lot of dogs as a shelter volunteer. Based on that experience, I found that the article went off the rails almost immediately:

    dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise
     
    No. Really, just, no. Even experienced vets can't do more than make an educated guess at breed mix, and those guesses aren't very reliable. If we don't have a pedigree, or even better a DNA test, then we don't know the breed. Full stop, end of research project.

    Dogsbite.org is relying on journalists for breed identification (their data set is based on media reports). Maybe there are some very conscientious journalists who won't call a dog a "pit bull" until they've seen its AKC papers. But I suspect that, when reporting what are literally "dog bites man" stories, they (or their sources) simply fall back on the lazy stereotype that violent dog = "pit bull" until proven otherwise.

    Granted, the stereotype may become self-fulfilling: thugs are attracted to pit bulls because of their violent reputation, then train the dogs to live up to that reputation. But if so, pit bull violence (to the extent it's a thing) is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated -- not anything inherent to the breed.

    Again, there's a precise analogy with guns, crime and gun control: the problem is the thug himself, not the otherwise-legal instruments he puts to thuggish ends.

    Perhaps you have not owned any pit bulls, but in identifying yourself as a “shelter volunteer” and putting forth the usual range of surreptitiously emotional arguments, you have outed yourself as a member of the Anti-Racist Dog Brigade.

    Surely we recognize that the greyhound is unusually well-equipped to run sprints. We also recognize that this is primarily a function of genetics when compared to other breeds. Yet, for some reason, the extremely outsized damage caused by pit bulls is “is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated — not anything inherent to the breed.” Now, you might retort with the previous nonsense about breed misidentification, and I will in turn request that you re-familiarize yourself with the breeding history of pit bulls and the nature of supply and demand economics as it pertains to dog fighting and gambling. What reason would there be for the overwhelming dominance of pit bulls in the dog fight game? Surely, not misidentification or confirmation bias. Or is this kinda like the wage gap, where the greedy corporations have yet to figure out that you can hire an entire staff of brilliant females for 77% of what their male counterparts would cost?

    One more obnoxious question: How many tattoos do you have?

    • Replies: @CPK
    Since you asked: I have no tattoos. And while I've been fond of an individual "pit bull" now and then, I've got no emotional commitment ("surreptitious" or otherwise) to the bully breeds as such. (Personally, I prefer little fru-fru dogs like Yorkies and Maltese, even if they do tend to make people question my heterosexuality.)

    On the other hand, I do get a bit emotional about spurious arguments based on bad data.

    Dogsbite.org's data are based on media reports. So they don't actually show that pit bulls accounted for half of all fatal dog attacks. They show that dogs described as "pit bulls" in media reports accounted for half of all fatal dog attacks. How many were actually pit bulls is anyone's guess.

    Dogsbite.org handwaves the problem by simply asserting a-priori that media reports identify dog breeds reliably and accurately. For reasons I've already discussed (and which should be obvious), I'm skeptical. And if the data set doesn't correctly identify dogs by breed, then it's useless.
  138. @MEH 0910
    That's breedist.

    We need dem programs,these dogs are the future,they need job training and anger management!

    • Agree: Nico
  139. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @5371
    [Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.]

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.

    Depends on the cause – if it’s generations of farming that makes babies more placid then baby placidity among populations would go

    120 generations > 80 generations > 40 generations > 20 generations

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The American Indian babies were most placid in that study.
  140. @Anonym
    This is not surprising. For some reason, most straight women and especially nurturing type women do not have what it takes to make a dog know its place in the home. The only man who would not naturally understand physical pecking orders would be someone who was home-schooled.

    A dog that thinks it is the boss, or does not know it is going to get a severe "correction" the moment it looks the wrong way at your kids, is as dangerous as a loaded weapon. The warning signs are predictable if you know what to look for as well. The problem is, a lot of people don't. That dog that is growling as your kids try and take its toy away? Serious dominance hierarchy problems.

    This is more going to be a problem with naturally dominant breeds of dogs. And with such dogs, they will not know to obey properly until you start controlling their life and issuing corrections that are strong enough to cause a yelp. Of course, doing so is going to cause anyone mildly SJWish in nature to be triggered. They anthropomorphize the dog, and do not try and understand the dog on its own merits.

    Unfortunately a log of (most?) dog schools don't seem to teach the pack structure thing, and they try and do everything with positive training and with limp-wristed negative training.

    By and large women, especially city women don't understand "tough love" and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.

    Preach it!

    Modern “pet parents” try to train their dogs, which most have never owned before, using nothing but positive reinforcement. It works about as well with dogs as it does with children.

    I grew up in the country with a faithful collie/shepherd crossbreed that was more intelligent than a lot of people I know. My dad, a former farm boy, trained him using old-school reward/denial methods considered abusive in the modern world, and he never misbehaved. Our dogs back then were never neutered, either.

    I tweak the dog owners I know by calling them abusive to their pets, as all dogs should be free range but a large percentage now spend substantial time crated. I find it hilarious that their owners are shocked when their dogs start acting up when the owner gets home from work and lets them out; how would YOU act after being released from the doggie version of San Quentin, doing time for no other reason other than your existence?

    Your modern American is all for total equality, so they struggle with their dogs because there’s no dominance established. Dogs have to know who’s in charge, and if negative reinforcement isn’t part of your training program, you’re in for a long, hard slog.

    Pit bulls are like steroids; doing/owning them may not mean you’re an asshole, but it’s a pretty reliable indicator.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Your modern American is all for total equality, so they struggle with their dogs because there’s no dominance established. Dogs have to know who’s in charge, and if negative reinforcement isn’t part of your training program, you’re in for a long, hard slog.

    That is a good point about equality. Since that is a major tenet if not a God in the modern PC religion, and women are the mainstays of religious enforcement, it makes sense that they have trouble dealing with dogs.
  141. @Bill Jones
    Pit bull ownership is the inverse of the Social Justice Warrior's virtue signaling.

    gene-culture co-evolution in action

  142. @neon2
    Honorary Aryans, as I have had occasion to point out in the past.

    The Japanese are on the UN’s kill list with Koreans and all (except one) of the recently white countries.

    http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm

  143. @anon

    Sounds pretty dubious; Japanese and Chinese are far closer to each other genetically than either are to whites, no comparison.
     
    Depends on the cause - if it's generations of farming that makes babies more placid then baby placidity among populations would go

    120 generations > 80 generations > 40 generations > 20 generations

    The American Indian babies were most placid in that study.

  144. @CPK
    No, I'm not a pit bull owner, but I've worked with a lot of dogs as a shelter volunteer. Based on that experience, I found that the article went off the rails almost immediately:

    dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise
     
    No. Really, just, no. Even experienced vets can't do more than make an educated guess at breed mix, and those guesses aren't very reliable. If we don't have a pedigree, or even better a DNA test, then we don't know the breed. Full stop, end of research project.

    Dogsbite.org is relying on journalists for breed identification (their data set is based on media reports). Maybe there are some very conscientious journalists who won't call a dog a "pit bull" until they've seen its AKC papers. But I suspect that, when reporting what are literally "dog bites man" stories, they (or their sources) simply fall back on the lazy stereotype that violent dog = "pit bull" until proven otherwise.

    Granted, the stereotype may become self-fulfilling: thugs are attracted to pit bulls because of their violent reputation, then train the dogs to live up to that reputation. But if so, pit bull violence (to the extent it's a thing) is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated -- not anything inherent to the breed.

    Again, there's a precise analogy with guns, crime and gun control: the problem is the thug himself, not the otherwise-legal instruments he puts to thuggish ends.

    “Pit bulls” aren’t a specific breed, so that’s not any kind of serious counter-argument. “Pit bull” refers to a general category of dogs that encompasses a variety of different breeds and crosses that trace their heritage to bull-baiting in England until the 19th century.

    • Replies: @CPK

    “Pit bulls” aren’t a specific breed
     
    Yes, just so. We can draw inferences about behavioral genetics only for a population that is reasonably homogenous -- not if the population is just a loosely-defined heterogeneous "general category". So the more broadly we define "pit bull", the harder it is to attribute any behavioral traits to genetics and breeding.

    Dogsbite.org comes pretty close to defining it as "any dog some rando described as a pit bull". Their data set is based on media reports. Maybe these journalists (and/or their sources) were extremely conscientious and only used the label "pit bull" when they had a pedigree or DNA test in hand. But it seems more likely that they just used "pit bull" as lazy shorthand for "dangerous dog that isn't obviously some other breed I'm more familiar with".

    Dogsbite.org hand-waves this by asserting that the media report breed identifications made by people like Animal Control officers -- which, even if true, is meaningless. Nobody can do better than a tentative best-guess approximation of breed mix just by looking at a dog. This is why dog DNA tests (and before that, pedigrees) are a thing, and when available, they often prove those approximations to be wrong.

    What Dogsbite.org has quantified is not dog behavior, but journalist behavior. They've shown that the perception ("pit bull" = "dangerous dog") is widespread, not that it's accurate. It could be accurate, but we need much better data (and we'd need to control for the dogs' environment and training prior to the incident).

  145. @CommentGuy
    The appearance of typical pro-pit bull arguments in the comments really demonstrates how limited HBD's appeal is in the modern climate. People can't even come to a reasonable consensus on the hereditary characteristics of dogs.

    In this blog's comment section.

    Let that sink in for a bit.

    HBD theories probably would not exist if it weren’t for the huge, incontrovertible body of evidence in the animal and plant worlds that supports racial diversities in form and substance. Race apparently describes separations existing between the family or line, and the specie levels. The question isn’t whether pit bulls are innately more physically aggressive than most other races of dog. Obviously they are, for these qualities were selected through generations of careful and not so careful breeding.

    The question is whether these aggressive tendencies can override the fundamental predisposition toward pack bonding. Almost any dog can be trained, using immediate, firm, and consistent discipline, to tolerate other creatures, even cats and chickens. I doubt that even pit bulls are beyond redemption in this regard. The limiting factor is the attention and careful discipline that good behavior may require for an extra-aggressive individual. I suspect it is frequently lacking.

    On the other hand, although the number of pit bulls who have maimed or killed a human being is almost certainly negligible relative to the pit population, this fact will be of no consolation to the families of the dead.

  146. @Steve Sailer
    My wife did some noticing of Things Unseen at the dog beach in Del Mar, CA, a pricey beach with an offshore reef that makes it very safe for rich old people and their beloved grandchildren: no pit bulls and non tattoos.

    Since Del Mar is south of LA, how cold’s the Pacific there? Because the Santa Monica region has some mighty cold waters. That part of the Pacific sure is freezing. Don’t know how surfers in Santa Monica, Malibu, Pacific Palisades can surf with the waters that cold.

    In Honolulu the water is much warmer. Hope Del Mar has warm waters as well.

    • Replies: @cthulhu
    Surfing in San Diego county, you should count on needing a wet suit (or even a dry suit at times) most of the year. But the side benefit of this cold water just off the coast is some of the most temperate weather in the world.
  147. @MKP
    From my experience, ownership of dangerous pitbulls is one of the few areas in which the hackneyed argument of whiny liberals is actually true:

    The trashy whites are just as bad as the ghetto blacks.

    It comes down to IQ.

  148. @Anonym
    This is not surprising. For some reason, most straight women and especially nurturing type women do not have what it takes to make a dog know its place in the home. The only man who would not naturally understand physical pecking orders would be someone who was home-schooled.

    A dog that thinks it is the boss, or does not know it is going to get a severe "correction" the moment it looks the wrong way at your kids, is as dangerous as a loaded weapon. The warning signs are predictable if you know what to look for as well. The problem is, a lot of people don't. That dog that is growling as your kids try and take its toy away? Serious dominance hierarchy problems.

    This is more going to be a problem with naturally dominant breeds of dogs. And with such dogs, they will not know to obey properly until you start controlling their life and issuing corrections that are strong enough to cause a yelp. Of course, doing so is going to cause anyone mildly SJWish in nature to be triggered. They anthropomorphize the dog, and do not try and understand the dog on its own merits.

    Unfortunately a log of (most?) dog schools don't seem to teach the pack structure thing, and they try and do everything with positive training and with limp-wristed negative training.

    By and large women, especially city women don't understand "tough love" and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.

    When we adopted a Malamute puppy to replace our dearly departed Shepherd mix, our Lab/Border Collie female would sometimes pin him to the ground on his back and growl menacingly into his face until he yelped. We would be alarmed by this, until we realized it was just the natural way dogs train newcomers into the pecking order. He grew up to love her, and she him ( although she was coy about it!) and never crossed her in any way, even when he towered over her. He’s a big guy now, 110lbs. He has a slight dominance issue, but generally is a food loving affection hound. I would NOT want to face off with him if he was angry though.

    I met a guy from Indiana who owned a Malamute. There were some coyotes calling out pets into the night and eating them. They called out his Malamute one night, and when he awoke the next day, his dog was on the porch covered in blood. Alarmed, he immediately began looking for injuries and found none. A wildlife officer told him he had found a dead coyote in the ditch about a mile from his place, and another so badly chewed up, he had to shoot him to end his suffering.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    A cousin had the same experience with a Malamute, a huge male that was substantially larger than 110lbs. Dog was good with the kids and cats, but killed wild animals for sport and ripped up a German Shepherd police dog living in the neighborhood.

    Personally, I'd never have an animal around me that I couldn't handle bare-handed if it went full-insane. For dogs, this means nothing much above 70 lbs, and that's labs. I'd never, ever have a pit, a rot or similar breed, regardless of size. People, especially women, who think they can handle large dogs are just playing the odds where drawing the short straw is catastrophic.
  149. @Brutusale
    Preach it!

    Modern "pet parents" try to train their dogs, which most have never owned before, using nothing but positive reinforcement. It works about as well with dogs as it does with children.

    I grew up in the country with a faithful collie/shepherd crossbreed that was more intelligent than a lot of people I know. My dad, a former farm boy, trained him using old-school reward/denial methods considered abusive in the modern world, and he never misbehaved. Our dogs back then were never neutered, either.

    I tweak the dog owners I know by calling them abusive to their pets, as all dogs should be free range but a large percentage now spend substantial time crated. I find it hilarious that their owners are shocked when their dogs start acting up when the owner gets home from work and lets them out; how would YOU act after being released from the doggie version of San Quentin, doing time for no other reason other than your existence?

    Your modern American is all for total equality, so they struggle with their dogs because there's no dominance established. Dogs have to know who's in charge, and if negative reinforcement isn't part of your training program, you're in for a long, hard slog.

    Pit bulls are like steroids; doing/owning them may not mean you're an asshole, but it's a pretty reliable indicator.

    Your modern American is all for total equality, so they struggle with their dogs because there’s no dominance established. Dogs have to know who’s in charge, and if negative reinforcement isn’t part of your training program, you’re in for a long, hard slog.

    That is a good point about equality. Since that is a major tenet if not a God in the modern PC religion, and women are the mainstays of religious enforcement, it makes sense that they have trouble dealing with dogs.

  150. @syonredux
    And Freedman later applied the same techniques to human infants:

    He decided to try the same thing with human infants of different breeds. Excuse me, different races. He looked at newborn babies in a hospital in San Francisco where his first child had been born. He compared Cantonese babies with babies of Northern European origin. The division of sexes was the same, the mothers were the same age, they had about the same number of previous children, and they had been administered the same drugs in the same amounts during labor.

    White babies started to cry more easily, and once they started, they were more difficult to console. Chinese babies adapted to almost any position in which they were placed; for example, when placed face down in their cribs, they tended to keep their faces buried in the sheets rather than immediately turning to one side, as the Caucasian babies did. They briefly pressed the baby’s nose with a cloth, forcing him to breath with his mouth. Most white (and black) babies fight this maneuver by immediately turning away or swiping at the cloth with their hands, and this is reported in Western pediatric textbooks as normal. While the average Chinese baby would simply lay on his back, breathing through the mouth, accepting the cloth without a fight. There are movies of this: they are apparently quite striking, and should be on YouTube. I talked to a prof who showed these movies to students in a class at an Ivy league university: they really, really hated it. They should emigrate to a different reality – one of those probability lines outside the Blight, full of butt-kicking pixies, avuncular gay men, Melanesian super-hackers, and female Fields medalists. And unicorns.

    Later, he looked at Navaho babies: they’re like Chinese, only more so.

    Japanese babies are like Chinese, but less so: more irritable, but not as irritable as white kids.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dan-freedmans-babies/

    Lack of irritation when the nose is obstructed is probably a cold weather adaptation, since babies in cold climates will spend most of their time completely wrapped in clothing except for their mouths.

  151. @Jack Hanson
    I own a female Corso and the people saying "harsh correction" are spot on. The friend who sold me the dog told me "think small farm and animal and not large dog when it comes to discipline" and that's been my guiding light that has paid off.

    There was some aggression/domination issues towards the wife that was dealt with severely and hasn't been a problem in two years now. Great with the kids, and she mauled an illegal alien sex offender who went after the wife and kids to death. A+ breed would own again.

    mauled an illegal alien sex offender to death.
    So, were there any legal affects or did just a shallow grave suffice?

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    It was in my yard and and I had a sign up. The sheriff's attitude was that our dog saved taxpayers decades of prison costs before an execution, and to call him if I ever bred her.
  152. I am not a “Pill Bull” owner, but have trained and worked with dogs all my life, including actual Schutzhunden (police/protection dogs). I come from a long line of “dog men” in East Asia. I currently own several large breeds. Here are some observations:

    1. “Pit Bull” is not a recognized breed, unless you are talking about American Pit Bull Terrier (United Kennel Club; the American Kennel Club lineage is called the American Staffordshire Terrier). It’s an amorphous, somewhat nebulous, popular term for medium-to-large, heavily muscled, terrier types of dogs. Both AmStaffs and APBTs are Molosser-type breeds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser).

    2. Media/police/witness reports of “pit bull attacks” are highly unreliable as to the actual breeds involved in the attacks. Most people, even police officers, are not dog experts, and often label almost any large breed attacks as “pit bull attacks.”

    3. The dog breed responsible for the most number of human deaths and attacks has fluctuated over time. At one point (several decades ago), the German Shepherd was number one, which reflected the ownership trend of the time. Now it is “pit bull-type” dogs. Typically as a large, powerful breed becomes popular, it attracts bad breeders and bad owners who abuse their dogs to be aggressive and “tough” to other people. I have seen it happen with other breeds as well (Akita – or the “Great Japanese Dog”* comes to mind, in particular). Knowledgeable and caring breeders shake their heads the moment a popular movie comes out about their breed – they know that their breed will be in higher demand, and the breed quality will suffer inevitably.

    4. Most dogs have territoriality and possess powerful jaws. Any large breed of dogs is thus capable of seriously hurting or even killing people, particularly children. This is particularly true if the said dogs are not socialized with other animals and humans well.

    5. The American Pit Bull Terrier was originally used for baiting bulls and later fighting other dogs in a cage. So the lineages originating from the early APBTs have a high prey drive and (sometimes) inter-dog aggression. However, these lineages were bred to be AVERSE TO BITING HUMANS (dog handlers wouldn’t last long if they couldn’t handle their bull- or dog-fighting dogs safely). Dogs exhibiting aggression toward people were culled.

    6. UKC’s description of the APBT’s temperament is as follows:

    The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.

    During the 19th Century, it was common in the countryside to leave terriers of this sort to watch over children while the parents were gone working in the fields. Ancestors of APBT were in the past called “nanny dogs” because they were so gentle with little humans.

    7. Dogs reach full maturity at about 2 years old. That means you can pack many generations into a relatively short period of time. It also means that a group of unethical (or stupid) breeders can ruin a breed’s temperament in quick order. In fact, it becomes possible to selectively breed a highly dangerous dog in a relatively short time frame.

    8. I have no doubt that there are many poorly-bred and -socialized (and even abused) “Pit Bull-type” dogs (which are, more often than not mixes rather than purebreds) that are highly human aggressive, and should be culled. However, I have yet to encounter a properly-bred and -socialized APBT that has exhibited human aggression. I am sure there are some out there, but the number is probably quite small.

    9. Overwhelmingly, in a plurality (probably majority) of dog biting fatality cases, the attacker is an unneutered male and the victim is a child who was unattended by an adult.

    10. Many people are not suitable for owning dogs. Over the decades I have run into MANY, probably hundreds, examples of “gentle” breeds such as Labradors and Golden Retrievers that have exhibited human aggression due to poor handling and training (and likely poor breeding), because owners have simply dumped them in their backyards or tied them to a stake (to charge at every passerby). These dogs become bored, highly territorial, and hyper-active, and often charge at and bite people, especially small children.

    11. As an example of how quickly and dramatically a breed can diverge in different lineages, see the difference between Japanese Akitas and the Great Japanese Dog (aka “American Akita”):
    The actual Japanese Akitas in Japan are smaller and foxier-looking than American Akitas, do not have a reputation for human aggression, and, in my experience, have a much “sweeter” temperament than the heavily hybridized American Akitas.

    Japanese Akitas, by the way, are not a “wolfish” breed. They are a Northern Spitz-type dog, common in Northeast Asia and Siberia. Siberian Huskies, are also of the same general type, and are renowned for their extremely poor suitability as guard/protection dogs, because they tend to LOVE STRANGERS. The Chukchi people, who originated the latter breed, bred them to be great sled puller and playmates for their children. Siberian Huskies are particularly noted for their playfulness with kids.

    Actual wolf-hybrids are extremely rare. They also require a high degree of vigilance, because their wolf strain makes them highly unreliable with domestic animals and people. Wolves can be tamed, but are not DOMESTICATED. Wolves do not have the attenuation to human expressions, gestures, and mental states that dogs do.

    12. I have a friend who raises and trains, and hunts hogs with Dogo Argentinos. They are a large, powerful Molosser-type breed, typically 90-100 pounds for males. It can be terrifying for non-dog people to see a group of them go at feral hogs (but they are a delight for people like my friends and me who hunt hogs). They can be extremely dangerous dogs – as with any other large breeds, especially Molosser-types – probably far worse than “Pit Bulls” due to their size and power IF poorly bred and socialized. But ethical breeders have bred out inter-dog and human aggression in this breed, and they have a reputation of being civil toward other domestic animals and people.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome


    At one point (several decades ago), the German Shepherd was number one, which reflected the ownership trend of the time.

     

    We want per-capita though.

    Pit bulls punched above their weight in the past.

    Fatal dog attacks in the United States

    Year -- Total Fatal dog attacks -- Pit Bull percent of total
    1945 -- 2 -- 100%
    1946-1964: 0%
    1965 -- 3 -- 33%
    1966-1975: 0%
    1976 -- 5 -- 25%
    1977-1980: 0%
    1981 -- 4 -- 25%
    1982 -- 4 -- 25%
    1983 -- 5 -- 40%
    1984 -- 5 -- 40%
    1985 -- 1 -- 0%
    1986 -- 7 -- 57%
    1987 -- 6 -- 100% (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)
    1988 -- 6 -- 17%
    1989 -- 5 -- 0%
    1990 -- 7 -- 29%
    ...
    2014 -- 33 -- 56%
    2015 -- 30 -- 67%
  153. @Cagey Beast
    Oddly enough, the late William F. Buckley Jr had a large pit bull and marijuana leaf tattoo on his back that's similar to the one in the upper row. It's how the police identified him after a string of liquor store robberies in Maryland. At least I think it was Bill Buckley; might have been William Safire.

    LOL

    I find it ironic that young people will spend all of their parents’ money on clothes, but they still want tattoos, which are forever.

    • Replies: @V Vega

    I find it ironic that young people will spend all of their parents’ money on clothes, but they still want tattoos, which are forever.
     
    "Ask me about my parent's divorce."

    –Subtext of all tattoos

  154. Pit Bull puppies show off their genetic inheritance:

  155. Hey iSteve, pitbull-ness is just a social construct. Any dog can fit into the arbitrarily defined pitbull category. Police and prosecutors say any dog that bits a person is a pitbull explaining the large percentage of bits from pit-bulls.

  156. @athEIst
    mauled an illegal alien sex offender to death.
    So, were there any legal affects or did just a shallow grave suffice?

    It was in my yard and and I had a sign up. The sheriff’s attitude was that our dog saved taxpayers decades of prison costs before an execution, and to call him if I ever bred her.

  157. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jim Don Bob
    Poodles are dumber than a box of rocks.

    Wrong. Poodles are in Top 5 of all breed intelligence lists. http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/smartest-dogs/

    Now, there are three kinds of poodles, depending in size. The biggest is Standard, also the smartest. The tiny Toys are pretty dumb but that is to be expected be expected – their brain is tiny. The intermediate-size Miniature poodles are in between, and have a high variance – some are extremely smart and some are indeed dumber than a box of rocks.

  158. @Buffalo Joe
    People getting killed or maimed for life by an aggressive dog is terrible, but a couple of years ago two young boys, in Toronto, one actually an infant, were crushed to death by their parents' "pet" Boa constrictor. I wanted to go to Toronto and tape plastic bags over the parents' heads. People's ideas of what constitutes a "pet" today are bizarre.

    I think the incident took place in Nova Scotia, not Toronto, if this is what you’re talking about:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/n-s-snake-expert-shocked-by-attack-that-killed-2-boys-1.1340557

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Emilia, Foggy memory, but you may be very correct, tragic regardless of the location. Thank you.
  159. I had two Pugs years ago . Once two standard Poodles , which are large dogs came after Rudy , the male , while we were on our walk . I was trying to hurry on to our apt. as they closed on us . My little guy stopped and turned to snap at them and drove them back . The brave little guy saved himself , no coward he , he was friendly to every one he met but he was like a Gurkha , cheerful and friendly but ready to kill . If only the white man today had his character and courage , F**k those Pitbulls , Shepard’s and all the rest there is no better character and no better traits than those of the Pug . The best breed ever !

  160. @ScarletNumber
    LOL

    I find it ironic that young people will spend all of their parents' money on clothes, but they still want tattoos, which are forever.

    I find it ironic that young people will spend all of their parents’ money on clothes, but they still want tattoos, which are forever.

    “Ask me about my parent’s divorce.”

    –Subtext of all tattoos

  161. I had a friend who was a professional working with dogs. She also had 7 dogs on her large property, of different breeds as well as mutts. They are all so laid back, I’m hardly aware of them when I’m there. She’s kind of a “dog whisperer.” She’s excellent with them.

    She had a pitbull for 4 years. A rescue from a shelter. Very laid back and friendly dog. For some reason, it took issue, in her front yard, with her miniature poodle.

    She heard the screams from the poodle from inside her house. She ran out to witness the pitbull holding the poodle by the back of the neck, shaking the holy shit out of it. She grabbed the pitbull’s collar, and started slapping his head with her hand. He released the poodle, and clamped down on her upper arm, and started that twisting motion pitbulls enjoy so much. Beating him with her fist in his head and nose, he finally got him off her, and she staggered to a neighbors house, who called the police and ambulance.

    The pitbull had not only removed about half of her bicep muscle, he came within a centimeter of a major artery. Her surgeon’s told her the fact she was still alive was pure luck. Also lucky was that because it was the middle of the day, her neighbor would have usually been at work. He had returned home simply because he had forgotten something, and decided to have lunch there before returning to work. If he wasn’t there, she would have bled out on his porch.

    The pit bull was euthanized. The poodle died on the front lawn. Her upper arm looks exactly as you’d imagine of someone who had a almost half of their bicep ripped out. There’s no way to overlook it. It’s her dominant feature if she’s not wearing sleeves.

    Again, she’s a dog expert. She made her money being an expert on dog behavior, and was very successful until the pitbull incident. She’s kept many, many problem dogs from being euthanized. She’s never had anything close to an incident like this happen to her. She’s also the opposite of “ghetto.”

    My take on all of it, which I’ve not said to her because it’s rude is, “pitbulls have the mentality of a 2 year old kid. would you hand something that could kill someone to a two year old kid? In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure. Why would you get one that can? Why would you enable a 2 year old to possibly kill someone? What is the point?”

    btw, as a landlord who sometimes rents to blacks, in every case of black people owning animals, they’re just the worst. They’re generally just too stupid to own a dog. I’m sorry, but it’s so. Every tenant we’ve had for years has been an idiot with their dog, regardless of the breed. They try to do everything on the cheap, and dump the dog into the pound the minute they can’t get out of putting money out for it. And with pitbulls, they’re the worst. We need new legislation to address stupid blacks and animal ownership. Hispanics have, at least, a bit of an excuse. Many of them are from peasant communities from another country, and just need to assimilate, and most do. Blacks have not.

    I wish PETA would get a counter-group organized against “black lives matter” called “pitbulls lives matter.” They could get some decent media coverage if they mixed it up with those morons.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I had a friend who was a professional working with dogs... She’s kind of a “dog whisperer.” She’s excellent with them.
     
    We shall see about that.

    She ran out to witness the pitbull holding the poodle by the back of the neck, shaking the holy shit out of it.
     
    That's a common prey behavior that many dogs engage in when they get a hold of a small prey. You will see almost any large breed dog with a rabbit, for example, shaking the heck out of it to snap its neck. This is not in any way unique to "Pit Bulls."

    She grabbed the pitbull’s collar, and started slapping his head with her hand.
     
    I am sorry to shatter your illusion about this, but your friend is absolutely, positively NOT "a professional working with dogs." No dog professional, I mean absolutely no real dog professional, would try to grab a dog's collar and, worse, strike the dog in the head with one's hand, during a dog fight. This is what clueless people do, and it will more often than not result in getting bitten by the dog, whatever the dog's breed.

    First of all, real dog professionals teach dogs a "release" command - to drop whatever is in their mouths (treat, ball, squirrel, another dog's neck, a human arm, what have you) on voice command. This should be ingrained into any dog that a real trainer keeps in his own household. All my dogs have INTENSE prey drive, but on my voice command WILL drop anything in their mouths, no matter how "juicy" and desirable that is.

    Second, breaking up a dog fight or a dog clamping down on another dog invariably involves approaching the dog from behind and picking up its hind legs (see here for an example: https://youtu.be/f7xrLXQNG0I). Only idiots and the grossly inexperienced actually strike the dog's head with one's hands (!) - that's just asking to be bitten/attacked.

    Finally, a vast majority of dogs, whatever the breed, give signs of warning, dislike or conflict with another dog. It's very rare for dogs to suddenly attack without any signs (growl/body language). An experienced dog handler can recognize and can prevent fights from starting by sensing those signs LONG before an actual physical conflict arises.

    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.
     
    That's nonsense. "Pit Bulls" do not have "locking jaws," contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.

    Again, she’s a dog expert. She made her money being an expert on dog behavior
     
    Again, she is not. No professional would ever do what she did to break up a dog fight/mauling.
    , @Anonymous
    Yeah, it's like those "pet lions". They are warm and fuzzy - but only until the point where they snap and kill you or someone from your family. Or pet chimps, for that matter. Bottom line is, own dogs that were bred to never snap or own working dogs where the risk/benefit ratio is low enough. It is plain stupid to own something for fun if that something can kill you. It's like marrying a black widow :-)
  162. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Since Del Mar is south of LA, how cold's the Pacific there? Because the Santa Monica region has some mighty cold waters. That part of the Pacific sure is freezing. Don't know how surfers in Santa Monica, Malibu, Pacific Palisades can surf with the waters that cold.

    In Honolulu the water is much warmer. Hope Del Mar has warm waters as well.

    Surfing in San Diego county, you should count on needing a wet suit (or even a dry suit at times) most of the year. But the side benefit of this cold water just off the coast is some of the most temperate weather in the world.

  163. @gcochran
    Dogs breeds have different personalities, on average, and those personalities are essentially the same even when a puppy is raised by a foster mother of a different breed.

    When we decided to breed dogs again we wanted a breed that we wanted to improve. We needed to like the dog breed on all levels. Our second consideration (which was a subsection of the first) was the breed standard especially regarding disposition. We wanted a loyal, gentle, and easily handled dog. Our last considerations were cosmetic and functional.

    We found all that with the White Swiss Shepherd (an offshoot of the German Shepherd). We have found them to be gentle, biddable, and fun companions. They are protective without being aggressive towards dogs, animals or people. Ours are gentle with our elderly cats, careful but unafraid of the elk that come into our yard, and while they will bark at the tweakers and scuzzy types that walk by our yard they eagerly wait for the school bus to get the children to play with them (and we have parents that stop just so their kids get to be the ones who get to play that day) .

    We’ve owned many different breeds and these are the best pets we have found. Yes I am bragging.

  164. @Threecranes
    Problem is people like you who misdirect and disinform by insisting that the "Problem is bad owners."

    Even if we eliminated people like you...
    and even if we eliminated bad owners...
    Pitbull problems would persist.

    So, should we eliminate (1) your kind?
    (2) Pitbull owners?
    (3) Or pitbulls?

    Choose one.

    There’s an island somewhere, can’t remember where, where if a dog bites a human it is killed no exceptions. Dog bites are nearly unknown. Must be all the good socialization and training.

    • Replies: @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    "There’s an island somewhere, can’t remember where, where if a dog bites a human it is killed no exceptions."
    On some Pacific islands there are no breeds of dog. There's just one generic inbred half-arsed dog that looks like a buggered Dingo.
  165. @Anonym
    On Steve's original topic: The Doberman made sense in the Pacific Theater because it had a short coat which suited the hot weather. Of course, it had other good qualities.

    Dogs are very much subject to fashion. A movie or TV show does wonders for popularity. The rap lifestyle has done wonders for the popularity of the pit. Two things that made Dobermans popular back 30-40 years ago:
    1. The Omen.
    2. Magnum PI.

    The decay in popularity back to baseline is due to the fact that these pop culture artifacts were of the 1970s and 1980s, which is some 25+ years ago.

    Breeding for many breeds has become ossified and eccentric according to the whims of the AKC and dog shows. The Doberman and GSD breeds have become bifurcated between European and American lines. The Europeans are often bred for Schutzhund or sourced from animals bred for those requirements. As a result they are generally more robust, hardier, working animals with the correct instincts. The Americans are more "pretty" show ponies. (I think there is beauty in functional correctness, but I'm probably the minority there.) Think bodybuilding vs MMA. Or bodybuilding vs training to be a cop, which is probably more analogous to Schutzhund. And if you specifically took a bunch of top bodybuilders and daughters of other top buildbuilders and bred them over several generations. And you did the same thing with cops. If you wanted cop-like behavior, you wouldn't go with the bodybuilder line, would you, even though they'd probably really nail that "most muscular" pose, just by instinct.

    I don't know how that plays out with fatality rates, but I understand that in Europe the Schutzhund dogs are screened for unsuitable temperament.

    There are loads of better protection dogs than the PB. A lot have been bred and battle-tested in areas subject to less civilized forms of humanity. For example, the South African Boerboel, and the Fila Brasiliero (again, types of Molosser breeds). Google them. They are really interesting. I think due to the internet we will see the rise in popularity of heretofore unusual dogs (in the west) to the extent that people want a protection dog vs a fighting dog, and can afford the dog food. (This kind of goes along with importing the less civilized people from those countries - you need the rest of what passes for their sh***y infrastructure.)

    It's kind of like employer-driven immigration. Want a coder? Get an Indian. Want a fruit picker? Get a Mexican. Want a female who will have sex with you despite your obnoxious/creepy personality? South-East Asian or Eastern European depending on taste.

    At least dogs don't bloc vote to transfer all your wealth to them, while dissolving whatever bonds of nation you once felt through miscegenation.

    I was at a democrat caucus where the ‘boss’ said that if his cat could raise her hand he’d let her vote. He wasn’t joking.

  166. @anon
    Pitbulls ~ local crime rate

    Pretty true. All the meth dealers and producers in my area use pitt-rottie mixes. The dogs are uniformly loud, dangerous, and effective at keeping people from sneaking into their owner’s property. One particularly vicious dog was always chained to his owner’s vehicle. No car prowler there.

  167. @Danindc
    Only idiots own pit bulls. No exceptions.

    Nonsense. Mine was sweet tempered. I found her outside a convenience store at 3:00 AM. I bought her some lunchmeat, and when I opened it, I could see that she was harmless, even though she was starving and her ribs were sticking out. I let her take it from my hand, which she did very gently, and brought her home. She never had a problem at the dog park, did not even have a beef with neighborhood cats. She was good with groups of children too.

    A vicious dog is usually a sign of a vicious owner. The dogs are usually salvageable.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    A vicious dog is usually a sign of a vicious owner.
     
    Not necessarily. Sometimes an aggressive dog is a sign of a timid or indulgent owner. Dogs "go bad" for all kinds of reasons.

    The dogs are usually salvageable.
     
    Yes, that is absolutely true. However, in some limited cases, some dogs are so poorly bred that it's really not worth the effort to rehabilitate them. It's akin to triage - there are so many other dogs that will be put down that will respond better to re-socialization and training. That's the heartbreaking thing - in a world of limited resources, one has to make a judgment call.
    , @Yinzer
    Notice that @ my local dog park. Pits are well behaved. All are rescues. Don't have one myself.
  168. @V Vega
    I had a friend who was a professional working with dogs. She also had 7 dogs on her large property, of different breeds as well as mutts. They are all so laid back, I'm hardly aware of them when I'm there. She's kind of a "dog whisperer." She's excellent with them.

    She had a pitbull for 4 years. A rescue from a shelter. Very laid back and friendly dog. For some reason, it took issue, in her front yard, with her miniature poodle.

    She heard the screams from the poodle from inside her house. She ran out to witness the pitbull holding the poodle by the back of the neck, shaking the holy shit out of it. She grabbed the pitbull's collar, and started slapping his head with her hand. He released the poodle, and clamped down on her upper arm, and started that twisting motion pitbulls enjoy so much. Beating him with her fist in his head and nose, he finally got him off her, and she staggered to a neighbors house, who called the police and ambulance.

    The pitbull had not only removed about half of her bicep muscle, he came within a centimeter of a major artery. Her surgeon's told her the fact she was still alive was pure luck. Also lucky was that because it was the middle of the day, her neighbor would have usually been at work. He had returned home simply because he had forgotten something, and decided to have lunch there before returning to work. If he wasn't there, she would have bled out on his porch.

    The pit bull was euthanized. The poodle died on the front lawn. Her upper arm looks exactly as you'd imagine of someone who had a almost half of their bicep ripped out. There's no way to overlook it. It's her dominant feature if she's not wearing sleeves.

    Again, she's a dog expert. She made her money being an expert on dog behavior, and was very successful until the pitbull incident. She's kept many, many problem dogs from being euthanized. She's never had anything close to an incident like this happen to her. She's also the opposite of "ghetto."

    My take on all of it, which I've not said to her because it's rude is, "pitbulls have the mentality of a 2 year old kid. would you hand something that could kill someone to a two year old kid? In a pitbulls case, it's the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can't yield that level of pressure. Why would you get one that can? Why would you enable a 2 year old to possibly kill someone? What is the point?"

    btw, as a landlord who sometimes rents to blacks, in every case of black people owning animals, they're just the worst. They're generally just too stupid to own a dog. I'm sorry, but it's so. Every tenant we've had for years has been an idiot with their dog, regardless of the breed. They try to do everything on the cheap, and dump the dog into the pound the minute they can't get out of putting money out for it. And with pitbulls, they're the worst. We need new legislation to address stupid blacks and animal ownership. Hispanics have, at least, a bit of an excuse. Many of them are from peasant communities from another country, and just need to assimilate, and most do. Blacks have not.

    I wish PETA would get a counter-group organized against "black lives matter" called "pitbulls lives matter." They could get some decent media coverage if they mixed it up with those morons.

    I had a friend who was a professional working with dogs… She’s kind of a “dog whisperer.” She’s excellent with them.

    We shall see about that.

    She ran out to witness the pitbull holding the poodle by the back of the neck, shaking the holy shit out of it.

    That’s a common prey behavior that many dogs engage in when they get a hold of a small prey. You will see almost any large breed dog with a rabbit, for example, shaking the heck out of it to snap its neck. This is not in any way unique to “Pit Bulls.”

    She grabbed the pitbull’s collar, and started slapping his head with her hand.

    I am sorry to shatter your illusion about this, but your friend is absolutely, positively NOT “a professional working with dogs.” No dog professional, I mean absolutely no real dog professional, would try to grab a dog’s collar and, worse, strike the dog in the head with one’s hand, during a dog fight. This is what clueless people do, and it will more often than not result in getting bitten by the dog, whatever the dog’s breed.

    First of all, real dog professionals teach dogs a “release” command – to drop whatever is in their mouths (treat, ball, squirrel, another dog’s neck, a human arm, what have you) on voice command. This should be ingrained into any dog that a real trainer keeps in his own household. All my dogs have INTENSE prey drive, but on my voice command WILL drop anything in their mouths, no matter how “juicy” and desirable that is.

    Second, breaking up a dog fight or a dog clamping down on another dog invariably involves approaching the dog from behind and picking up its hind legs (see here for an example: https://youtu.be/f7xrLXQNG0I). Only idiots and the grossly inexperienced actually strike the dog’s head with one’s hands (!) – that’s just asking to be bitten/attacked.

    Finally, a vast majority of dogs, whatever the breed, give signs of warning, dislike or conflict with another dog. It’s very rare for dogs to suddenly attack without any signs (growl/body language). An experienced dog handler can recognize and can prevent fights from starting by sensing those signs LONG before an actual physical conflict arises.

    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.

    That’s nonsense. “Pit Bulls” do not have “locking jaws,” contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.

    Again, she’s a dog expert. She made her money being an expert on dog behavior

    Again, she is not. No professional would ever do what she did to break up a dog fight/mauling.

    • Replies: @res

    First of all, real dog professionals teach dogs a “release” command – to drop whatever is in their mouths (treat, ball, squirrel, another dog’s neck, a human arm, what have you) on voice command. This should be ingrained into any dog that a real trainer keeps in his own household. All my dogs have INTENSE prey drive, but on my voice command WILL drop anything in their mouths, no matter how “juicy” and desirable that is.

    Second, breaking up a dog fight or a dog clamping down on another dog invariably involves approaching the dog from behind and picking up its hind legs (see here for an example: https://youtu.be/f7xrLXQNG0I). Only idiots and the grossly inexperienced actually strike the dog’s head with one’s hands (!) – that’s just asking to be bitten/attacked.

    Finally, a vast majority of dogs, whatever the breed, give signs of warning, dislike or conflict with another dog. It’s very rare for dogs to suddenly attack without any signs (growl/body language). An experienced dog handler can recognize and can prevent fights from starting by sensing those signs LONG before an actual physical conflict arises.
     

    It has been interesting reading the pit bull stories. Your quote above best aligns with my experience. I was bitten by a pit bull once. I was doing something aggressive near (not towards) its owner. After a warning jump/snap near me (which I did not process because I was angry) it bit and held my thigh just above the knee. I yelled "(dog name), NO!" and the dog released, went submissive, and looked as close to chagrined as a dog can. Surprisingly little damage was done, but I am glad the dog released and curious about how close it was to the femoral artery given the discussion above.

    I grew up in an area with quite a few dogs loose or on long chains. My experience was most dogs were reasonable if I stood without fear and offered a hand for sniffing. Any thoughts on how to approach (or disengage from) an unknown and unleashed dog? (the hind legs tip above is a good one that I had not known--thanks. I have broken up a dog fight between medium/big aggressive dogs before and fortunately had no problems, but in hindsight it was pretty stupid)

    P.S. In my pit bull story above I knew both the dog and the owner well and the dog was in general a well trained sweetheart.

    , @V Vega


    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.
     

     

    That’s nonsense. “Pit Bulls” do not have “locking jaws,” contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.
     
    What are you smoking, you self-sanctimonious POS?

    Where do you detect that I wrote "locking jaws"? You don't, douchebag. Pitbulls are proven to have amongst the highest PSI pressure of all dog breeds.


    Pit Bull
    The Pitbull has become a breed synonymous with strong jaws, biting and danger. While this dog does not have the highest bite force of the dogs National Geographic tested, it is one of the top four. The Pitbull bite was measured at 235 pounds of pressure. It is the most highly recognized breed for jaw and bite strength.
    http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Which_Dog_Breed_Has_the_Strongest_Jaw
     
    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video you posted advised smaller women to stand aside until the attacking dog breaks off the attack. He didn't even illustrate the scenario I described.

    I'd like to see you stand by while your small dog gets butchered by a pitbull in front of you, with it screaming during the entire process, while you break a tear like a stoic old Indian Chief looking down at a dirty diaper in the park.

    Why do so many self-proclaimed experts of aggressive dogs turn into nazi's? They're all mean, balding 50-somethings, wearing large wire aviator-type glasses, and speak to everyone as if they're patronizing a dumbass. Go back to Königsberg, and clone the perfect German Shepard, you swine.

  169. @Discard
    Nonsense. Mine was sweet tempered. I found her outside a convenience store at 3:00 AM. I bought her some lunchmeat, and when I opened it, I could see that she was harmless, even though she was starving and her ribs were sticking out. I let her take it from my hand, which she did very gently, and brought her home. She never had a problem at the dog park, did not even have a beef with neighborhood cats. She was good with groups of children too.

    A vicious dog is usually a sign of a vicious owner. The dogs are usually salvageable.

    A vicious dog is usually a sign of a vicious owner.

    Not necessarily. Sometimes an aggressive dog is a sign of a timid or indulgent owner. Dogs “go bad” for all kinds of reasons.

    The dogs are usually salvageable.

    Yes, that is absolutely true. However, in some limited cases, some dogs are so poorly bred that it’s really not worth the effort to rehabilitate them. It’s akin to triage – there are so many other dogs that will be put down that will respond better to re-socialization and training. That’s the heartbreaking thing – in a world of limited resources, one has to make a judgment call.

    • Replies: @Discard
    Agreed. An old friend died and his terrier went to an idiot that just put it in the back yard and did nothing but feed it once a day. When I heard about it I got the dog from him, and it had gone feral. Nine pounds of terrier leaping from your lap to snarl in your face is scary. She bites, and she means it. She draws blood, and she hangs on, when she doesn't bite repeatedly. It's taken time, but she hasn't bitten anybody since last summer. Had she been a 20 pounder, I'd of had to put her down.
  170. A. What happened to all you racists? You’re falling down. If a particular gun is fashionable in the ghettos and barrios, it will turn up disproportionately in the crime statistics. If a particular car is popular in the ghettos and barrios, it will disproportionately appear in theft and drunk driving cases. And if Blacks and Mexicans favor a particular breed of dog, that breed will disproportionately turn up in the biting stats.
    Blaming pit bulls for biting is like blaming Chevrolet Monte Carlos for drive by shootings. The dog is just a tool.

    B. I don’t know that it’s SJWs taking their anti-racism to the canine level, but I’m seeing more middle class people with pit mixes these days. My guess is that they’re for protection, not social signaling.

    • Replies: @TWS
    Yes, if Monte Carlos liked biting people and things that analogy would work. Unlike a gun or car dogs have desires and drives of their own. If my car wanted to run someone over I'd have it scrapped.
    , @Anonymous
    How stupid do you have to be to think that inert objects and machines like guns and cars are analogous to biological organisms like dogs?

    Analogical reasoning is among the highest correlates with IQ in IQ testing, which is probably why the analogies section was dropped from the SAT about a decade ago. It's not surprising to see defenders of pit bulls deficient in this respect.
    , @Yinzer
    Lot more b/c they are the most common dog in shelters. Fosters now do a lot better job @ getting them ready for a homes. Wish more SJW types would "notice" the problem demographic that causes most of the problems for these poor animals. Diversity & animal welfare do not go together.
  171. @Twinkie

    A vicious dog is usually a sign of a vicious owner.
     
    Not necessarily. Sometimes an aggressive dog is a sign of a timid or indulgent owner. Dogs "go bad" for all kinds of reasons.

    The dogs are usually salvageable.
     
    Yes, that is absolutely true. However, in some limited cases, some dogs are so poorly bred that it's really not worth the effort to rehabilitate them. It's akin to triage - there are so many other dogs that will be put down that will respond better to re-socialization and training. That's the heartbreaking thing - in a world of limited resources, one has to make a judgment call.

    Agreed. An old friend died and his terrier went to an idiot that just put it in the back yard and did nothing but feed it once a day. When I heard about it I got the dog from him, and it had gone feral. Nine pounds of terrier leaping from your lap to snarl in your face is scary. She bites, and she means it. She draws blood, and she hangs on, when she doesn’t bite repeatedly. It’s taken time, but she hasn’t bitten anybody since last summer. Had she been a 20 pounder, I’d of had to put her down.

  172. Saturday Night Live from back when it didn’t suck:

    87b: Sean Penn / L.L. Cool J, Michael Penn & The Pull

    Pitman & Bullock

    Announcer: [ over SUPER ] What qualities make an investment firm number one?

    Determination.

    [ show pitbull ]

    The will to succeed.

    Aggressiveness.

    [ show pitbull barking ]

    Fierce drive to compete and win.

    Instinct.

    [ show pitbull barking ]

    Knowing the right moment to strike.

    [ show pitbull identifying his kill ]

    Tenacity.

    [ show pitbull chewing on a man’s leg ]

    Holding on when others let go.

    Coldbloodedness.

    [ show pitbull continue to chew on a man’s leg ]

    Indifference to the suffering of those who stand in the way.

    Pitman & Bullock. Put the power of the pitbull to work for you.

  173. @Twinkie
    I am not a "Pill Bull" owner, but have trained and worked with dogs all my life, including actual Schutzhunden (police/protection dogs). I come from a long line of "dog men" in East Asia. I currently own several large breeds. Here are some observations:

    1. "Pit Bull" is not a recognized breed, unless you are talking about American Pit Bull Terrier (United Kennel Club; the American Kennel Club lineage is called the American Staffordshire Terrier). It's an amorphous, somewhat nebulous, popular term for medium-to-large, heavily muscled, terrier types of dogs. Both AmStaffs and APBTs are Molosser-type breeds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser).

    2. Media/police/witness reports of "pit bull attacks" are highly unreliable as to the actual breeds involved in the attacks. Most people, even police officers, are not dog experts, and often label almost any large breed attacks as "pit bull attacks."

    3. The dog breed responsible for the most number of human deaths and attacks has fluctuated over time. At one point (several decades ago), the German Shepherd was number one, which reflected the ownership trend of the time. Now it is "pit bull-type" dogs. Typically as a large, powerful breed becomes popular, it attracts bad breeders and bad owners who abuse their dogs to be aggressive and "tough" to other people. I have seen it happen with other breeds as well (Akita - or the "Great Japanese Dog"* comes to mind, in particular). Knowledgeable and caring breeders shake their heads the moment a popular movie comes out about their breed - they know that their breed will be in higher demand, and the breed quality will suffer inevitably.

    4. Most dogs have territoriality and possess powerful jaws. Any large breed of dogs is thus capable of seriously hurting or even killing people, particularly children. This is particularly true if the said dogs are not socialized with other animals and humans well.

    5. The American Pit Bull Terrier was originally used for baiting bulls and later fighting other dogs in a cage. So the lineages originating from the early APBTs have a high prey drive and (sometimes) inter-dog aggression. However, these lineages were bred to be AVERSE TO BITING HUMANS (dog handlers wouldn't last long if they couldn't handle their bull- or dog-fighting dogs safely). Dogs exhibiting aggression toward people were culled.

    6. UKC's description of the APBT's temperament is as follows:


    The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.
     
    During the 19th Century, it was common in the countryside to leave terriers of this sort to watch over children while the parents were gone working in the fields. Ancestors of APBT were in the past called "nanny dogs" because they were so gentle with little humans.

    7. Dogs reach full maturity at about 2 years old. That means you can pack many generations into a relatively short period of time. It also means that a group of unethical (or stupid) breeders can ruin a breed's temperament in quick order. In fact, it becomes possible to selectively breed a highly dangerous dog in a relatively short time frame.

    8. I have no doubt that there are many poorly-bred and -socialized (and even abused) "Pit Bull-type" dogs (which are, more often than not mixes rather than purebreds) that are highly human aggressive, and should be culled. However, I have yet to encounter a properly-bred and -socialized APBT that has exhibited human aggression. I am sure there are some out there, but the number is probably quite small.

    9. Overwhelmingly, in a plurality (probably majority) of dog biting fatality cases, the attacker is an unneutered male and the victim is a child who was unattended by an adult.

    10. Many people are not suitable for owning dogs. Over the decades I have run into MANY, probably hundreds, examples of "gentle" breeds such as Labradors and Golden Retrievers that have exhibited human aggression due to poor handling and training (and likely poor breeding), because owners have simply dumped them in their backyards or tied them to a stake (to charge at every passerby). These dogs become bored, highly territorial, and hyper-active, and often charge at and bite people, especially small children.

    11. As an example of how quickly and dramatically a breed can diverge in different lineages, see the difference between Japanese Akitas and the Great Japanese Dog (aka "American Akita"): http://orig08.deviantart.net/33d0/f/2013/093/f/7/japanese_vs_american_akita_inu_by_skele_kitty-d60de7u.jpg

    The actual Japanese Akitas in Japan are smaller and foxier-looking than American Akitas, do not have a reputation for human aggression, and, in my experience, have a much "sweeter" temperament than the heavily hybridized American Akitas.

    Japanese Akitas, by the way, are not a "wolfish" breed. They are a Northern Spitz-type dog, common in Northeast Asia and Siberia. Siberian Huskies, are also of the same general type, and are renowned for their extremely poor suitability as guard/protection dogs, because they tend to LOVE STRANGERS. The Chukchi people, who originated the latter breed, bred them to be great sled puller and playmates for their children. Siberian Huskies are particularly noted for their playfulness with kids.

    Actual wolf-hybrids are extremely rare. They also require a high degree of vigilance, because their wolf strain makes them highly unreliable with domestic animals and people. Wolves can be tamed, but are not DOMESTICATED. Wolves do not have the attenuation to human expressions, gestures, and mental states that dogs do.

    12. I have a friend who raises and trains, and hunts hogs with Dogo Argentinos. They are a large, powerful Molosser-type breed, typically 90-100 pounds for males. It can be terrifying for non-dog people to see a group of them go at feral hogs (but they are a delight for people like my friends and me who hunt hogs). They can be extremely dangerous dogs - as with any other large breeds, especially Molosser-types - probably far worse than "Pit Bulls" due to their size and power IF poorly bred and socialized. But ethical breeders have bred out inter-dog and human aggression in this breed, and they have a reputation of being civil toward other domestic animals and people.

    At one point (several decades ago), the German Shepherd was number one, which reflected the ownership trend of the time.

    We want per-capita though.

    Pit bulls punched above their weight in the past.

    Fatal dog attacks in the United States

    Year — Total Fatal dog attacks — Pit Bull percent of total
    1945 — 2 — 100%
    1946-1964: 0%
    1965 — 3 — 33%
    1966-1975: 0%
    1976 — 5 — 25%
    1977-1980: 0%
    1981 — 4 — 25%
    1982 — 4 — 25%
    1983 — 5 — 40%
    1984 — 5 — 40%
    1985 — 1 — 0%
    1986 — 7 — 57%
    1987 — 6 — 100% (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)
    1988 — 6 — 17%
    1989 — 5 — 0%
    1990 — 7 — 29%

    2014 — 33 — 56%
    2015 — 30 — 67%

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Pit bulls punched above their weight in the past.
     
    Be that as it may, it wasn't number one decades ago.

    1946-1964: 0%
    1966-1975: 0%
    1977-1980: 0%
     
    Your own source shows that for a stretch of 20 years and then again 10 years, it accounted for 0% of dog bite-caused fatalities.

    Indeed, you might note that until very recently only a handful of people, if any, died from dog bites in the whole country annually. Such deaths were very rare - the proverbial dying from getting hit by a lightning.
    , @Twinkie

    (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)
     
    Spuds Mackenzie was a female Bull Terrier - different breed from American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier.
  174. @TWS
    There's an island somewhere, can't remember where, where if a dog bites a human it is killed no exceptions. Dog bites are nearly unknown. Must be all the good socialization and training.

    “There’s an island somewhere, can’t remember where, where if a dog bites a human it is killed no exceptions.”
    On some Pacific islands there are no breeds of dog. There’s just one generic inbred half-arsed dog that looks like a buggered Dingo.

  175. Pit bulls screw up adopt a pet tv interviews, reinforce negative stereotypes:

    Pit bull bites news anchor on live tv

    Pitbull attacks news anchor on live TV during a Adopt a Pet segment

    • Replies: @BB753
    That's stereotype threat in action, lol! Seriously, you can tell the female anchors knew nothing about dogs, let alone pitbulls. They were making the dogs more nervous than they already were. Now, here's proof that pitbulls have poor impulse control and aren't adequate for just any kind of owner. They need dominant owners and constant supervision. Not the type of dog owners who say they are owned by Fluffy.
    Though, to be frank, the anchorwomen in the videos were also getting on my nerves!
    , @res
    Did you notice the warning snap (1:29 in the second video)? Compare that to the actual bite.
  176. tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com:

    The Truth About Pit Bulls

    “A breed is like a suit of clothes, it doesn’t tell you anything about the dog inside.”

    There is a “good” dog inside of almost every dog.

    • Replies: @TWS
    It's good they qualified that. I'd hate to think they weren't being honest.
  177. Pro-pit bull sentiment is built on the same emotional center as pro-refugee sentiment.

    • Agree: Jack Hanson
  178. @Hippopotamusdrome
    Pit bulls screw up adopt a pet tv interviews, reinforce negative stereotypes:

    Pit bull bites news anchor on live tv

    Pitbull attacks news anchor on live TV during a Adopt a Pet segment

    That’s stereotype threat in action, lol! Seriously, you can tell the female anchors knew nothing about dogs, let alone pitbulls. They were making the dogs more nervous than they already were. Now, here’s proof that pitbulls have poor impulse control and aren’t adequate for just any kind of owner. They need dominant owners and constant supervision. Not the type of dog owners who say they are owned by Fluffy.
    Though, to be frank, the anchorwomen in the videos were also getting on my nerves!

  179. @Discard
    A. What happened to all you racists? You're falling down. If a particular gun is fashionable in the ghettos and barrios, it will turn up disproportionately in the crime statistics. If a particular car is popular in the ghettos and barrios, it will disproportionately appear in theft and drunk driving cases. And if Blacks and Mexicans favor a particular breed of dog, that breed will disproportionately turn up in the biting stats.
    Blaming pit bulls for biting is like blaming Chevrolet Monte Carlos for drive by shootings. The dog is just a tool.



    B. I don't know that it's SJWs taking their anti-racism to the canine level, but I'm seeing more middle class people with pit mixes these days. My guess is that they're for protection, not social signaling.

    Yes, if Monte Carlos liked biting people and things that analogy would work. Unlike a gun or car dogs have desires and drives of their own. If my car wanted to run someone over I’d have it scrapped.

    • Replies: @Discard
    My contention is that pit bulls are no more or less vicious than many other breeds. Yes, my pit bull liked to bite, as does my greyhound. It's called "mouth play". I put on welding gloves and we go at it, snarling and tail-wagging. I let the dog pull a glove off, and game over.
  180. @Hippopotamusdrome
    tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com:


    The Truth About Pit Bulls
    ...
    “A breed is like a suit of clothes, it doesn’t tell you anything about the dog inside.”
    ...
    There is a “good” dog inside of almost every dog.

     

    It’s good they qualified that. I’d hate to think they weren’t being honest.

  181. @Twinkie

    I had a friend who was a professional working with dogs... She’s kind of a “dog whisperer.” She’s excellent with them.
     
    We shall see about that.

    She ran out to witness the pitbull holding the poodle by the back of the neck, shaking the holy shit out of it.
     
    That's a common prey behavior that many dogs engage in when they get a hold of a small prey. You will see almost any large breed dog with a rabbit, for example, shaking the heck out of it to snap its neck. This is not in any way unique to "Pit Bulls."

    She grabbed the pitbull’s collar, and started slapping his head with her hand.
     
    I am sorry to shatter your illusion about this, but your friend is absolutely, positively NOT "a professional working with dogs." No dog professional, I mean absolutely no real dog professional, would try to grab a dog's collar and, worse, strike the dog in the head with one's hand, during a dog fight. This is what clueless people do, and it will more often than not result in getting bitten by the dog, whatever the dog's breed.

    First of all, real dog professionals teach dogs a "release" command - to drop whatever is in their mouths (treat, ball, squirrel, another dog's neck, a human arm, what have you) on voice command. This should be ingrained into any dog that a real trainer keeps in his own household. All my dogs have INTENSE prey drive, but on my voice command WILL drop anything in their mouths, no matter how "juicy" and desirable that is.

    Second, breaking up a dog fight or a dog clamping down on another dog invariably involves approaching the dog from behind and picking up its hind legs (see here for an example: https://youtu.be/f7xrLXQNG0I). Only idiots and the grossly inexperienced actually strike the dog's head with one's hands (!) - that's just asking to be bitten/attacked.

    Finally, a vast majority of dogs, whatever the breed, give signs of warning, dislike or conflict with another dog. It's very rare for dogs to suddenly attack without any signs (growl/body language). An experienced dog handler can recognize and can prevent fights from starting by sensing those signs LONG before an actual physical conflict arises.

    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.
     
    That's nonsense. "Pit Bulls" do not have "locking jaws," contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.

    Again, she’s a dog expert. She made her money being an expert on dog behavior
     
    Again, she is not. No professional would ever do what she did to break up a dog fight/mauling.

    First of all, real dog professionals teach dogs a “release” command – to drop whatever is in their mouths (treat, ball, squirrel, another dog’s neck, a human arm, what have you) on voice command. This should be ingrained into any dog that a real trainer keeps in his own household. All my dogs have INTENSE prey drive, but on my voice command WILL drop anything in their mouths, no matter how “juicy” and desirable that is.

    Second, breaking up a dog fight or a dog clamping down on another dog invariably involves approaching the dog from behind and picking up its hind legs (see here for an example: https://youtu.be/f7xrLXQNG0I). Only idiots and the grossly inexperienced actually strike the dog’s head with one’s hands (!) – that’s just asking to be bitten/attacked.

    Finally, a vast majority of dogs, whatever the breed, give signs of warning, dislike or conflict with another dog. It’s very rare for dogs to suddenly attack without any signs (growl/body language). An experienced dog handler can recognize and can prevent fights from starting by sensing those signs LONG before an actual physical conflict arises.

    It has been interesting reading the pit bull stories. Your quote above best aligns with my experience. I was bitten by a pit bull once. I was doing something aggressive near (not towards) its owner. After a warning jump/snap near me (which I did not process because I was angry) it bit and held my thigh just above the knee. I yelled “(dog name), NO!” and the dog released, went submissive, and looked as close to chagrined as a dog can. Surprisingly little damage was done, but I am glad the dog released and curious about how close it was to the femoral artery given the discussion above.

    I grew up in an area with quite a few dogs loose or on long chains. My experience was most dogs were reasonable if I stood without fear and offered a hand for sniffing. Any thoughts on how to approach (or disengage from) an unknown and unleashed dog? (the hind legs tip above is a good one that I had not known–thanks. I have broken up a dog fight between medium/big aggressive dogs before and fortunately had no problems, but in hindsight it was pretty stupid)

    P.S. In my pit bull story above I knew both the dog and the owner well and the dog was in general a well trained sweetheart.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Any thoughts on how to approach (or disengage from) an unknown and unleashed dog?
     
    That depends on the context. Typically when family, friends, and acquaintances of mine asked me for training their dogs, I would usually observe how they interact with their dogs first. Then I would ask them to go inside the house, and then usually sit down on a chair in the yard, ignore the dogs, and mind my business for a while. Most dogs get curious and eventually come closer, sniff, retreat, and get closer, retreat, and repeat. I usually have lots of little meaty treats to reward their curiosity once I sense that they are becoming more curious and at the same time more comfortable.

    Patience is the name of the game here. I don't hurry the process, because I know from experiences of my younger days that if you hurry you are likely to be anxious, and dogs can sense that anxiety. And that can lead to bad results. I've been bitten a fair amount in my life (from handling dogs to breaking up fights).

    As far as disengaging, that also depends on context. In general, I'd relax my body (deep, slow breathing helps), avoid eye contact, and back away very slowly. But much of it depends on the signals the particular dog is giving me.

    the hind legs tip above is a good one that I had not known–thanks.
     
    It's one of the first things I teach to people who want to learn to break up dog fights/bites. But the important thing isn't just to pick up the legs; you have to turn. That forces the dog to brace itself with its front legs instead of turning around and biting you (otherwise they fall on their faces).
  182. @Hippopotamusdrome
    Pit bulls screw up adopt a pet tv interviews, reinforce negative stereotypes:

    Pit bull bites news anchor on live tv

    Pitbull attacks news anchor on live TV during a Adopt a Pet segment

    Did you notice the warning snap (1:29 in the second video)? Compare that to the actual bite.

  183. Annoying out of control neighbor dogs bothering you?
    Take up gardening. With a sturdy manure-smeared fork.
    People with huge muscly dogs out in public (or indeed anywhere else, particularly if you work for a utility co., or the like) and who don’t require them as working dogs should be viewed as making a very clear statement of intent.
    If you’ve got a dog that looks like Bill Sikes’s dog, then I’ll assume you are of like character to poor old Bullseye’s master. Bigoted of me, perhaps. Prudent, certainly.

  184. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Discard
    A. What happened to all you racists? You're falling down. If a particular gun is fashionable in the ghettos and barrios, it will turn up disproportionately in the crime statistics. If a particular car is popular in the ghettos and barrios, it will disproportionately appear in theft and drunk driving cases. And if Blacks and Mexicans favor a particular breed of dog, that breed will disproportionately turn up in the biting stats.
    Blaming pit bulls for biting is like blaming Chevrolet Monte Carlos for drive by shootings. The dog is just a tool.



    B. I don't know that it's SJWs taking their anti-racism to the canine level, but I'm seeing more middle class people with pit mixes these days. My guess is that they're for protection, not social signaling.

    How stupid do you have to be to think that inert objects and machines like guns and cars are analogous to biological organisms like dogs?

    Analogical reasoning is among the highest correlates with IQ in IQ testing, which is probably why the analogies section was dropped from the SAT about a decade ago. It’s not surprising to see defenders of pit bulls deficient in this respect.

    • Replies: @Discard
    Not stupid at all. Pit Bulls that just go crazy without reason are a fairy tale, like cars that just accelerate for no reason just as the brakes stop working and the transmission refuses to go into neutral. Urban legends.

    How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?
  185. DWB says: • Website

    I am surely not a dog breeder, but the arguments that there are not inter-species differences seems to me to be tilting at windmills. Animal husbandry is at the heart of the history of human civilisation. Sorry.

    The argument by people who claim that “well, MY pit bull is not like that” are made by people who do not understand basic concepts like statistics and cannot differentiate between MEAN and VARIANCE. It’s frankly an infant’s argument.

    Also, the nature-nurture argument is NOT an either/or. Again, people who use counter-examples to “disprove” one are fools. I think even William Shockley himself never argued that nature explained 100% of between-group differences.

    We have recently re-patriated to the US (San Francisco, Calif), and there is a huge (YUUUGE, for you Trump backers) number of dogs. When we are out, one could almost pin-point the neighbourhood one is in simply by looking at the distribution of dogs being walked. Gentrification to the side, the percentage of pit bulls one sees in say, Dolores Park is far higher than the percentage in Marina Green. You can draw your own conclusions about the makeup of ownership. Personally, I seldom see hipsters or SJW chicks with pit bulls. It’s virtually always some tattooed- up ‘vibrant’ male, aged between 18-35.

  186. @Jack Hanson
    I own a Corso, and if Steve would moderate my comment you'd see my story about my bitch mauling an illegal alien sex offender to death when he went after my wife and kids.

    She was the runt of the litter. She weighs 120lbs. Her dad weighed over 160lbs. It is very easy to see the lines of the war hounds they were are not that far from the surface.

    That being said, she is excellent around my children, to the point where if I have to raise my voice she will interpose herself between me and the kid.

    “I own a Corso,”…”my bitch mauling an illegal alien sex offender to death when he went after my wife and kids.”

    You confabulate.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    You figured me out.
  187. @Threecranes
    I doubt that many pit bull owners take the trouble to "train" the dog at all.

    And (in response to Steve's query above) I doubt that many take the trouble to selectively "breed" the dog, or have intelligence and foresight to carry out any operation the results of which are not seen for generations.

    In my experience, which has included having my dog mauled on a public street by a neighbor's pit bull, the owners are drug dealers or society's discontents who want a guard dog to alert them to strangers and more especially the Law. Owning a pit bull is a badge or mark of membership for them.

    When my dog was attacked by an unrestrained pit bull my wife pepper sprayed it (which caused it to release its death grip on my dog's neck) simultaneously I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull's head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. Luckily, the owner with kids in tow had showed up by then and managed to subdue it. Ever since then I have carried my legally licensed concealed pistol when walking the dog. Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot. This attack wasn't the first. The first time, my dog bolted in retreat and jerked my wife backward so that she fell hindmost into a ditch. The police are indifferent. There is no law against a dog killing another dog in my state. To settle, an aggrieved owner must pursue justice on their own initiative through civil courts. Only if the dog bites you do the police take action.

    “Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot.”

    This is why we can’t get rid of the Oxford comma…

  188. Rottweilers and pitbulls are also the preferred dogs of people on welfare and food stamps, regardless of race.

    If a White person owns a pit or a rott, that White person 9 times out of 10 is most likely a drain on taxpayers.

    Rottweilers and pitbulls are the preferred dog breeds of the American underclass.

  189. Pitbulls and rottweilers are also the preferred dog breeds of Nazi skinheads. In some ways Nazi skinheads have more in common with Dindu Nuffins and Vato Locos than they do with nice White people like the Duggars and Sarah Palin & her family.

  190. Some Asians who adopt ghetto NAM culture, also own rottweilers and pitbulls.

    Those types of Asians are rotten bananas. They adopt the World Star Hip Hop culture as a middle finger to the model minority stereotype. The rotten banana ghetto Asians are the most anti-White out of all the Asian subgroups. Whenever they mix outside of their race, they are more likely to date Blacks than they are to date Whites.

    • Replies: @Yinzer
    Some Hmong have really gotten into the urban, hip-hop, designer dog "Bully Dog" breeding craze. Very broad, low slung Pits. Think crossed w/Bulldog and other breeds. Also a mini version crossed w/French Bulldog.
  191. @Emilia
    I think the incident took place in Nova Scotia, not Toronto, if this is what you're talking about:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/n-s-snake-expert-shocked-by-attack-that-killed-2-boys-1.1340557

    Emilia, Foggy memory, but you may be very correct, tragic regardless of the location. Thank you.

  192. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @V Vega
    I had a friend who was a professional working with dogs. She also had 7 dogs on her large property, of different breeds as well as mutts. They are all so laid back, I'm hardly aware of them when I'm there. She's kind of a "dog whisperer." She's excellent with them.

    She had a pitbull for 4 years. A rescue from a shelter. Very laid back and friendly dog. For some reason, it took issue, in her front yard, with her miniature poodle.

    She heard the screams from the poodle from inside her house. She ran out to witness the pitbull holding the poodle by the back of the neck, shaking the holy shit out of it. She grabbed the pitbull's collar, and started slapping his head with her hand. He released the poodle, and clamped down on her upper arm, and started that twisting motion pitbulls enjoy so much. Beating him with her fist in his head and nose, he finally got him off her, and she staggered to a neighbors house, who called the police and ambulance.

    The pitbull had not only removed about half of her bicep muscle, he came within a centimeter of a major artery. Her surgeon's told her the fact she was still alive was pure luck. Also lucky was that because it was the middle of the day, her neighbor would have usually been at work. He had returned home simply because he had forgotten something, and decided to have lunch there before returning to work. If he wasn't there, she would have bled out on his porch.

    The pit bull was euthanized. The poodle died on the front lawn. Her upper arm looks exactly as you'd imagine of someone who had a almost half of their bicep ripped out. There's no way to overlook it. It's her dominant feature if she's not wearing sleeves.

    Again, she's a dog expert. She made her money being an expert on dog behavior, and was very successful until the pitbull incident. She's kept many, many problem dogs from being euthanized. She's never had anything close to an incident like this happen to her. She's also the opposite of "ghetto."

    My take on all of it, which I've not said to her because it's rude is, "pitbulls have the mentality of a 2 year old kid. would you hand something that could kill someone to a two year old kid? In a pitbulls case, it's the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can't yield that level of pressure. Why would you get one that can? Why would you enable a 2 year old to possibly kill someone? What is the point?"

    btw, as a landlord who sometimes rents to blacks, in every case of black people owning animals, they're just the worst. They're generally just too stupid to own a dog. I'm sorry, but it's so. Every tenant we've had for years has been an idiot with their dog, regardless of the breed. They try to do everything on the cheap, and dump the dog into the pound the minute they can't get out of putting money out for it. And with pitbulls, they're the worst. We need new legislation to address stupid blacks and animal ownership. Hispanics have, at least, a bit of an excuse. Many of them are from peasant communities from another country, and just need to assimilate, and most do. Blacks have not.

    I wish PETA would get a counter-group organized against "black lives matter" called "pitbulls lives matter." They could get some decent media coverage if they mixed it up with those morons.

    Yeah, it’s like those “pet lions”. They are warm and fuzzy – but only until the point where they snap and kill you or someone from your family. Or pet chimps, for that matter. Bottom line is, own dogs that were bred to never snap or own working dogs where the risk/benefit ratio is low enough. It is plain stupid to own something for fun if that something can kill you. It’s like marrying a black widow 🙂

  193. @Twinkie

    I had a friend who was a professional working with dogs... She’s kind of a “dog whisperer.” She’s excellent with them.
     
    We shall see about that.

    She ran out to witness the pitbull holding the poodle by the back of the neck, shaking the holy shit out of it.
     
    That's a common prey behavior that many dogs engage in when they get a hold of a small prey. You will see almost any large breed dog with a rabbit, for example, shaking the heck out of it to snap its neck. This is not in any way unique to "Pit Bulls."

    She grabbed the pitbull’s collar, and started slapping his head with her hand.
     
    I am sorry to shatter your illusion about this, but your friend is absolutely, positively NOT "a professional working with dogs." No dog professional, I mean absolutely no real dog professional, would try to grab a dog's collar and, worse, strike the dog in the head with one's hand, during a dog fight. This is what clueless people do, and it will more often than not result in getting bitten by the dog, whatever the dog's breed.

    First of all, real dog professionals teach dogs a "release" command - to drop whatever is in their mouths (treat, ball, squirrel, another dog's neck, a human arm, what have you) on voice command. This should be ingrained into any dog that a real trainer keeps in his own household. All my dogs have INTENSE prey drive, but on my voice command WILL drop anything in their mouths, no matter how "juicy" and desirable that is.

    Second, breaking up a dog fight or a dog clamping down on another dog invariably involves approaching the dog from behind and picking up its hind legs (see here for an example: https://youtu.be/f7xrLXQNG0I). Only idiots and the grossly inexperienced actually strike the dog's head with one's hands (!) - that's just asking to be bitten/attacked.

    Finally, a vast majority of dogs, whatever the breed, give signs of warning, dislike or conflict with another dog. It's very rare for dogs to suddenly attack without any signs (growl/body language). An experienced dog handler can recognize and can prevent fights from starting by sensing those signs LONG before an actual physical conflict arises.

    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.
     
    That's nonsense. "Pit Bulls" do not have "locking jaws," contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.

    Again, she’s a dog expert. She made her money being an expert on dog behavior
     
    Again, she is not. No professional would ever do what she did to break up a dog fight/mauling.

    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.

    That’s nonsense. “Pit Bulls” do not have “locking jaws,” contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.

    What are you smoking, you self-sanctimonious POS?

    Where do you detect that I wrote “locking jaws”? You don’t, douchebag. Pitbulls are proven to have amongst the highest PSI pressure of all dog breeds.

    Pit Bull
    The Pitbull has become a breed synonymous with strong jaws, biting and danger. While this dog does not have the highest bite force of the dogs National Geographic tested, it is one of the top four. The Pitbull bite was measured at 235 pounds of pressure. It is the most highly recognized breed for jaw and bite strength.
    http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Which_Dog_Breed_Has_the_Strongest_Jaw

    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video you posted advised smaller women to stand aside until the attacking dog breaks off the attack. He didn’t even illustrate the scenario I described.

    I’d like to see you stand by while your small dog gets butchered by a pitbull in front of you, with it screaming during the entire process, while you break a tear like a stoic old Indian Chief looking down at a dirty diaper in the park.

    Why do so many self-proclaimed experts of aggressive dogs turn into nazi’s? They’re all mean, balding 50-somethings, wearing large wire aviator-type glasses, and speak to everyone as if they’re patronizing a dumbass. Go back to Königsberg, and clone the perfect German Shepard, you swine.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Here's a video of 5 grown men struggling to remove a Pit Bull that's locked on to a Chow Chow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ZxliBUvzA
    , @Twinkie

    What are you smoking, you self-sanctimonious POS?... you self-sanctimonious POS?
    You don’t, douchebag.
    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video
    They’re all mean, balding 50-somethings
    speak to everyone as if they’re patronizing a dumbass.
    you swine.
     
    You sound like an angry, stupid teenager. Get a grip, really.

    Pitbulls are proven to have amongst the highest PSI pressure of all dog breeds.
     
    Did you even look at the link you posted?

    Dr. Brady Barr tested a wolf, a Rottweiler, a German Shepherd, and a "Pit Bull" and obtained the following results:

    Wolf: 406 PSI
    Rottweiler: 328 PSI
    German Shepherd: 238 PSI
    Pit Bull: 235 PSI.

    Two other breeds were not tested, but their "reputed" bite forces were given:

    Doberman Pinscher: 600 PSI
    "Mastiff": 552 PSI

    The Pit Bull's bite force was the lowest among those tested by Dr. Barr.

    Let me add some other animals:
    Humans: 120 PSI
    Lions: 650 PSI
    Grizzly bears: 975 PSI
    Tigers: 1050 PSI
    Hyenas: 1100 PSI
    Gorillas: 1300 PSI
    Jaguars: 1350 PSI
    Hippos: 1825 PSI
    Alligators: 2125 PSI

    And so on (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/animals-with-the-most-powerful-bite-force.html).

    Then there is the fact that such tests are usually not particularly scientific (https://dogexpert.com/bite-force-in-dogs-is-difficult-to-calibrate-2/):

    In the only systematic study found in the literature examining bite force in dogs, the authors concluded that behavior variables were probably more important than physical variables in determining maximum bite force. In this study (Lindner, D. Measurement of bite force in dogs: A pilot study. Journal Veterinary Dentistry, 1995, Vo. 12, 49- 52) bite force measurements were obtained in 22 medium to large sized dogs during tug-of-war play games using a rawhide coated transducer rod. Bite force measurements ranged from 3 pounds of force to 313 pounds of force. Three Rottweiler dogs were tested and bite forces ranged between 169 pounds of force to 313 pounds of force. Chewing enthusiasm appear to correlate strongly with the level of bite force generated.

    In short, statements asserting maximum bite force must be treated with caution, and what one reads about concerning maximum bite force in the larger, more aggressive breeds, may be overstated. Obviously, well muscled, large-size dogs can bite with greater pressure than most breeds, and consequently can easily inflict serious personal injury to a human. Blunt and crush-type injuries are common, and a dog bite with sufficient force to a person’s neck may be fatal. [Boldface mine.]
     
    Science. Try it sometime.

    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video you posted advised smaller women to stand aside until the attacking dog breaks off the attack. He didn’t even illustrate the scenario I described.

     

    That's because small women are at a much greater danger from being mauled by dogs in fight than grown men. Would you let children attempt to break off large, powerful dogs from fighting? Saving a companion dog is nice, but the first priority should be to protect human life and safety. If you are physically weak and don't have experience, you SHOULD let the attack break off on its own. Saving fluffy is, in that scenario, not the immediate priority.

    That's the biological reality of life, pal. Get used to it. Women trainers "dominate" the companion animal training racket, but are very rare in the field dog and protection dog (Schutzhund) training for a reason. Women are, on average, far physically weaker and are emotionally less stable than men. Those traits don't lend themselves well to responding calmly and authoritatively to large powerful dogs fighting.

    And indeed your so-called professional dog trainer friend reacted hysterically and impulsively - grabbing the collar of an attacking dog and striking its head with her hand! Read this from that "50 year old balding Nazi" who knows more about dogs than your "professional" friend ever will (http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm?utm_expid=22395007-4.Wklb4ICgR0e_m0cAnu-N_A.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dhow%2Bto%2Bbreak%2Bup%2Ba%2Bdog%2Bfight%26form%3DIE11TR%26src%3DIE11TR%26pc%3DEUPP_DCJB). Some selective snippets:

    Breaking up a dog fight can go bad in a heart beat. This is serious business. So know your limitations and don't get into the middle of something you can't physically deal with.

    I will start with a warning. Unless you have a lot of experience do not try and break up a dog fight by yourself. Never step in the middle of two loving pets and try and grab them by the collar to stop a dog fight. If you try this, the chances of you being badly bitten are extremely high. People don't understand that 2 animals in the middle of a fight are in survival drive. If they see you at all, they don't look at you as their loving owner. When you charge in and grab them they either react out of a fight reflex and bite, or they see you as another aggressor. When they are in fight or flight mode they will bite you. You can take that to the bank.

    Dog fights are a very dangerous thing to try and break up alone. You should never rush in and try and grab the dogs to pull them apart. They are in high "fight drive" and are not thinking clearly when fighting. If someone grabs them they will bite without even thinking about who or what they are biting. This is how your loving pet can dog bite the living crap out of you in about a second and a half.

    In reality it probably doesn't even know it's biting you. [Boldfaces mine.]
     
    Now, some snippets of what you are SUPPOSED to do:

    The safest way to break up a dogfight requires 2 people. Each person grabs the back feet of one of the dogs. The dog back feet are then picked up like a wheelbarrow. With the legs up, both dogs are then pulled apart.

    Once the dog fight is broken up and the dogs pulled apart it is critical that the people do not release the dogs or the dog fight will begin again. The two people need to start turning in a circle, or slowly swinging the dogs in a circle while they back away from the other dog. This stops the dog from curling and coming back and biting the person holding their legs.

    By circling the dog has to sidestep with its front feet or it will fall on its chin. As long as you slowly continue to back and circle, the dog cannot do any damage to you. To insure that the fight will not begin all over again when you release the dogs, one of the dogs needs to be dragged into an enclosure (i.e. a kennel, the garage, another room) before the dog is released. If you do not do this, the dogs will often charge back and start fighting again or if you release the dog to quickly the dog will turn and attack the person who had his feet.

    The worst case scenario is that you are alone when a serious fight breaks out. There are a couple things that you must keep in mind:
    •Keep your cool you have a job to do.
    •Do not waste time screaming at the dogs. It hardly ever works.
    •Your goal is still the same; you must break up the fight without getting hurt.
    •Go get a leash (allow the fight to continue while you do this).
    •Dogs are almost always locked onto one another. Walk up and loop the leash around the back loin of the dog by either threading the leash through the handle or use the clip. I prefer the thread method.
    •Now slowly back away and drag the dog to a fence or to an object that you can tie the leash to. By doing this, you effectively create an anchor for one of the dogs.
    •Then walk around and grab the back legs of the second dog and drag it away from the dog that is tied up. Remember to turn and circle as they release.
    •Drag the dog into a dog pen or another room before you release the back legs.
    •Go back and take the dog off the fence and put him or her into a dog kennel.
    •Sit down and have a stiff drink (or two). [Boldfaces mine.]
     
    Try to learn something instead of spouting expletives, okay?

    I’d like to see you stand by while your small dog gets butchered by a pitbull in front of you, with it screaming during the entire process, while you break a tear like a stoic old Indian Chief looking down at a dirty diaper in the park.
     
    1. I would not let dogs just roam about and hang out by themselves. My dogs are always supervised. When you have had large packs of dogs as I have over the years, you can't be an absentee pack leader. If they can't be supervised, they are kenneled.

    2. Furthermore, I do not allow my dogs to engage in aggression toward each other. Ever. I am the pack leader, and I get to decide on inter-pack violence, if any.

    3. I have broken off numerous dog fights, including big-on-small attacks, in the process of learning dog handling and training.

    4. None of this changes the fact that your friend was bitten badly out of her own inexperience or stupidity. No reputable trainer will ever sanction pulling at the collar and striking the dog's head with one's hand - that is absolutely the opposite of what you should do, period.
  194. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Soupor Juan
    4 hrs ·
    I wonder: Do our, “Social Welfare Systems” in this and in other Countries, take the place of dog, “Breeders” in terms of allowing and nurturing TYPES of humans which normally would not exist due to, “natural selection” and Mother Natures [other] methods of dealing with members of the [human race] which are not adapted to survive on their own? If so, are we then [simply], nurturing a dangerous way of life for ourselves which at some future point, becomes [unsustainable] and will in fact hurt all of us in the end?
    Richard

  195. @V Vega


    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.
     

     

    That’s nonsense. “Pit Bulls” do not have “locking jaws,” contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.
     
    What are you smoking, you self-sanctimonious POS?

    Where do you detect that I wrote "locking jaws"? You don't, douchebag. Pitbulls are proven to have amongst the highest PSI pressure of all dog breeds.


    Pit Bull
    The Pitbull has become a breed synonymous with strong jaws, biting and danger. While this dog does not have the highest bite force of the dogs National Geographic tested, it is one of the top four. The Pitbull bite was measured at 235 pounds of pressure. It is the most highly recognized breed for jaw and bite strength.
    http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Which_Dog_Breed_Has_the_Strongest_Jaw
     
    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video you posted advised smaller women to stand aside until the attacking dog breaks off the attack. He didn't even illustrate the scenario I described.

    I'd like to see you stand by while your small dog gets butchered by a pitbull in front of you, with it screaming during the entire process, while you break a tear like a stoic old Indian Chief looking down at a dirty diaper in the park.

    Why do so many self-proclaimed experts of aggressive dogs turn into nazi's? They're all mean, balding 50-somethings, wearing large wire aviator-type glasses, and speak to everyone as if they're patronizing a dumbass. Go back to Königsberg, and clone the perfect German Shepard, you swine.

    Here’s a video of 5 grown men struggling to remove a Pit Bull that’s locked on to a Chow Chow:

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Here’s a video of 5 grown men struggling to remove a Pit Bull that’s locked on to a Chow Chow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ZxliBUvzA
     
    A classic example of people who don't know what they are doing. There could be 50 of those people, and they would struggle. Of the five, two are trying to physically open the jaws and the others are holding down the dogs. Not one thinks to pick up the hind legs. It's really the height of stupidity or ignorance to put your hand near the muzzle of an unknown, powerful dog that is in fight/prey mode, let alone actually stick your hand into the mouth in an attempt to get a release.
  196. @Hippopotamusdrome


    At one point (several decades ago), the German Shepherd was number one, which reflected the ownership trend of the time.

     

    We want per-capita though.

    Pit bulls punched above their weight in the past.

    Fatal dog attacks in the United States

    Year -- Total Fatal dog attacks -- Pit Bull percent of total
    1945 -- 2 -- 100%
    1946-1964: 0%
    1965 -- 3 -- 33%
    1966-1975: 0%
    1976 -- 5 -- 25%
    1977-1980: 0%
    1981 -- 4 -- 25%
    1982 -- 4 -- 25%
    1983 -- 5 -- 40%
    1984 -- 5 -- 40%
    1985 -- 1 -- 0%
    1986 -- 7 -- 57%
    1987 -- 6 -- 100% (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)
    1988 -- 6 -- 17%
    1989 -- 5 -- 0%
    1990 -- 7 -- 29%
    ...
    2014 -- 33 -- 56%
    2015 -- 30 -- 67%

    Pit bulls punched above their weight in the past.

    Be that as it may, it wasn’t number one decades ago.

    1946-1964: 0%
    1966-1975: 0%
    1977-1980: 0%

    Your own source shows that for a stretch of 20 years and then again 10 years, it accounted for 0% of dog bite-caused fatalities.

    Indeed, you might note that until very recently only a handful of people, if any, died from dog bites in the whole country annually. Such deaths were very rare – the proverbial dying from getting hit by a lightning.

  197. @res

    First of all, real dog professionals teach dogs a “release” command – to drop whatever is in their mouths (treat, ball, squirrel, another dog’s neck, a human arm, what have you) on voice command. This should be ingrained into any dog that a real trainer keeps in his own household. All my dogs have INTENSE prey drive, but on my voice command WILL drop anything in their mouths, no matter how “juicy” and desirable that is.

    Second, breaking up a dog fight or a dog clamping down on another dog invariably involves approaching the dog from behind and picking up its hind legs (see here for an example: https://youtu.be/f7xrLXQNG0I). Only idiots and the grossly inexperienced actually strike the dog’s head with one’s hands (!) – that’s just asking to be bitten/attacked.

    Finally, a vast majority of dogs, whatever the breed, give signs of warning, dislike or conflict with another dog. It’s very rare for dogs to suddenly attack without any signs (growl/body language). An experienced dog handler can recognize and can prevent fights from starting by sensing those signs LONG before an actual physical conflict arises.
     

    It has been interesting reading the pit bull stories. Your quote above best aligns with my experience. I was bitten by a pit bull once. I was doing something aggressive near (not towards) its owner. After a warning jump/snap near me (which I did not process because I was angry) it bit and held my thigh just above the knee. I yelled "(dog name), NO!" and the dog released, went submissive, and looked as close to chagrined as a dog can. Surprisingly little damage was done, but I am glad the dog released and curious about how close it was to the femoral artery given the discussion above.

    I grew up in an area with quite a few dogs loose or on long chains. My experience was most dogs were reasonable if I stood without fear and offered a hand for sniffing. Any thoughts on how to approach (or disengage from) an unknown and unleashed dog? (the hind legs tip above is a good one that I had not known--thanks. I have broken up a dog fight between medium/big aggressive dogs before and fortunately had no problems, but in hindsight it was pretty stupid)

    P.S. In my pit bull story above I knew both the dog and the owner well and the dog was in general a well trained sweetheart.

    Any thoughts on how to approach (or disengage from) an unknown and unleashed dog?

    That depends on the context. Typically when family, friends, and acquaintances of mine asked me for training their dogs, I would usually observe how they interact with their dogs first. Then I would ask them to go inside the house, and then usually sit down on a chair in the yard, ignore the dogs, and mind my business for a while. Most dogs get curious and eventually come closer, sniff, retreat, and get closer, retreat, and repeat. I usually have lots of little meaty treats to reward their curiosity once I sense that they are becoming more curious and at the same time more comfortable.

    Patience is the name of the game here. I don’t hurry the process, because I know from experiences of my younger days that if you hurry you are likely to be anxious, and dogs can sense that anxiety. And that can lead to bad results. I’ve been bitten a fair amount in my life (from handling dogs to breaking up fights).

    As far as disengaging, that also depends on context. In general, I’d relax my body (deep, slow breathing helps), avoid eye contact, and back away very slowly. But much of it depends on the signals the particular dog is giving me.

    the hind legs tip above is a good one that I had not known–thanks.

    It’s one of the first things I teach to people who want to learn to break up dog fights/bites. But the important thing isn’t just to pick up the legs; you have to turn. That forces the dog to brace itself with its front legs instead of turning around and biting you (otherwise they fall on their faces).

  198. @Hippopotamusdrome


    At one point (several decades ago), the German Shepherd was number one, which reflected the ownership trend of the time.

     

    We want per-capita though.

    Pit bulls punched above their weight in the past.

    Fatal dog attacks in the United States

    Year -- Total Fatal dog attacks -- Pit Bull percent of total
    1945 -- 2 -- 100%
    1946-1964: 0%
    1965 -- 3 -- 33%
    1966-1975: 0%
    1976 -- 5 -- 25%
    1977-1980: 0%
    1981 -- 4 -- 25%
    1982 -- 4 -- 25%
    1983 -- 5 -- 40%
    1984 -- 5 -- 40%
    1985 -- 1 -- 0%
    1986 -- 7 -- 57%
    1987 -- 6 -- 100% (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)
    1988 -- 6 -- 17%
    1989 -- 5 -- 0%
    1990 -- 7 -- 29%
    ...
    2014 -- 33 -- 56%
    2015 -- 30 -- 67%

    (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)

    Spuds Mackenzie was a female Bull Terrier – different breed from American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier.

    • Replies: @Yinzer
    Variant on the same type of bulldog(not today's congenital nightmare) & small ratting terriers. Pits, Bull Terriers, American Staff, & Staffies are all the same family & from same background.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    Spuds Mackenzie was a female Bull Terrier – different breed from American Pit Bull
     
    Whatever. Any dog with the word "bull" in its name because it was bred to fight bulls and/or other dogs is good enough for me. The traits that make them good at fighting bulls and in dogfighting is what makes them dangerous.


    Bull Terrier
    ...
    History and Origin

    When bullbaiting was outlawed in England in 1835 the "sport" of dog-fighting became popular and a smaller dog breed was needed, that could be more easily hidden under one's coat at the arrival of the police.

    These dogs also had to be more agile and light as the dog fights usually lasted longer than bull fights.
    ...
    It got the reputation of a 'canine gladiator' which would fight to the death to please his master.

     

  199. @Anonymous
    Here's a video of 5 grown men struggling to remove a Pit Bull that's locked on to a Chow Chow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ZxliBUvzA

    Here’s a video of 5 grown men struggling to remove a Pit Bull that’s locked on to a Chow Chow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ZxliBUvzA

    A classic example of people who don’t know what they are doing. There could be 50 of those people, and they would struggle. Of the five, two are trying to physically open the jaws and the others are holding down the dogs. Not one thinks to pick up the hind legs. It’s really the height of stupidity or ignorance to put your hand near the muzzle of an unknown, powerful dog that is in fight/prey mode, let alone actually stick your hand into the mouth in an attempt to get a release.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Regarding the hind legs method: What if the other dog still wants to fight?
    , @Anonymous
    That's the point, moron. These are random bystanders on the street, not professional handlers. 5 grown men who are random bystanders and not expert handlers should be able to easily remove an attacking dog. The onus is on that pit bull and its owner. That pit bull should be taken out and its owner should face criminal charges.
  200. Ha haaa! the tattoos! Sort of cruel of me to chime in so late in this post but, I couldn’t resist since I believe I may be the consummate animal lover (adopter of all things great and small – humans not included) on Steve’s blog (rescue old horses or chickens anyone?…hedgehogs, pigs, ex-Easter bunnies, even fracking gold fish?!?)

    Also, my youngest son is home safely from Europe, so I am relieved…nothing happened to this large group of our H.S. students from the USA on tour – hundreds of American H.S’s, btw, cancelled their spring trips to Europe, post Brussels.

    In addition, my removal of Melanoma is on schedule – I live with this – sort of told everyone here in the past, that I spent too much time in the sun (sailing, mostly) and, at water’s edge in the 60’s-70’s, way before that Australian study on skin cancer in 1973 – doomsday for me – my parents did not link sun exposure to cancer (like most people). For the last 30 years, you all know what SPF means…and why hats are important…rash guard shirts…whatever.

    But, with 6-month skin scans, one can just get the questionable or lab-positive stuff, cut out…more or less simple. And, now, there are sooo many cool clothes/gear to wear that are SPF 50.

    However, my point is, Pit Bulls are good dogs, but the breed needs to be ended…it will be slow; but it will end the tragedy of this breed (most numerous in shelters/pounds) being the most abused by horrible, stupid, indifferent people. There is no point to continue this breed.

    I, myself, have adopted many different dog breeds (mostly seniors because I am a sucker)….my favorites are Borzois (last one died in my arms last month) and Irish Wolfhounds and Scottish Deer Hounds/Danes. These dogs are loving and surreal in their devotion. And, they don’t bark, have no dander for allergic people, don’t lick people, don’t jump up on people, don’t drool (some Danes do). They are very “clean dogs” who are more like cats all day after their “run”; sleeping/restive.

    My other point: TATTOOS beware! when you place metals under your skin (the dyes) you have the same level I have (90%) of getting Melanoma! Melanoma lesions, when a dermatologist identifies it, can be cut out/off of your body. Melanoma that grows unabated/unnoticed can travel to your brain/lungs/liver/pancreas/bones and it kills you-kind of like Bob Marley…who ignored his skin lesion on his calf for 20 years – it was too late – cancer was throughout his body, in every organ. So, Tattoos and Pit Bulls = Bad and Sad, possibly on the road to death and misery. Dogs can also get Melanoma. My current Irish had virulent Melanoma (before I adopted him) but he is currently slipping away because of old age – he is 11 so he is in the pantheon of his breed.

    • Replies: @Discard
    If all the pit bulls are sterilized, the Stupids will decide that some other breed is the most vicious and therefore most desirable. Bedlington Terriers? Great Danes? Spare the dogs and sterilize the Stupids.
  201. @Twinkie

    Here’s a video of 5 grown men struggling to remove a Pit Bull that’s locked on to a Chow Chow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ZxliBUvzA
     
    A classic example of people who don't know what they are doing. There could be 50 of those people, and they would struggle. Of the five, two are trying to physically open the jaws and the others are holding down the dogs. Not one thinks to pick up the hind legs. It's really the height of stupidity or ignorance to put your hand near the muzzle of an unknown, powerful dog that is in fight/prey mode, let alone actually stick your hand into the mouth in an attempt to get a release.

    Regarding the hind legs method: What if the other dog still wants to fight?

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Regarding the hind legs method: What if the other dog still wants to fight?
     
    Please see my last reply to "Rodney." If you are alone, you loop a leash on the hind part of one dog, secure the leash to a tree or some heavy object, then grab the hind legs of the other dog.
  202. @V Vega


    In a pitbulls case, it’s the PSI pressure of their jaws. Average dogs can’t yield that level of pressure.
     

     

    That’s nonsense. “Pit Bulls” do not have “locking jaws,” contrary to myths and rumors. Many other breeds of similar stature, athleticism, and muscularity have similar jaw strengths.
     
    What are you smoking, you self-sanctimonious POS?

    Where do you detect that I wrote "locking jaws"? You don't, douchebag. Pitbulls are proven to have amongst the highest PSI pressure of all dog breeds.


    Pit Bull
    The Pitbull has become a breed synonymous with strong jaws, biting and danger. While this dog does not have the highest bite force of the dogs National Geographic tested, it is one of the top four. The Pitbull bite was measured at 235 pounds of pressure. It is the most highly recognized breed for jaw and bite strength.
    http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Which_Dog_Breed_Has_the_Strongest_Jaw
     
    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video you posted advised smaller women to stand aside until the attacking dog breaks off the attack. He didn't even illustrate the scenario I described.

    I'd like to see you stand by while your small dog gets butchered by a pitbull in front of you, with it screaming during the entire process, while you break a tear like a stoic old Indian Chief looking down at a dirty diaper in the park.

    Why do so many self-proclaimed experts of aggressive dogs turn into nazi's? They're all mean, balding 50-somethings, wearing large wire aviator-type glasses, and speak to everyone as if they're patronizing a dumbass. Go back to Königsberg, and clone the perfect German Shepard, you swine.

    What are you smoking, you self-sanctimonious POS?… you self-sanctimonious POS?
    You don’t, douchebag.
    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video
    They’re all mean, balding 50-somethings
    speak to everyone as if they’re patronizing a dumbass.
    you swine.

    You sound like an angry, stupid teenager. Get a grip, really.

    Pitbulls are proven to have amongst the highest PSI pressure of all dog breeds.

    Did you even look at the link you posted?

    Dr. Brady Barr tested a wolf, a Rottweiler, a German Shepherd, and a “Pit Bull” and obtained the following results:

    Wolf: 406 PSI
    Rottweiler: 328 PSI
    German Shepherd: 238 PSI
    Pit Bull: 235 PSI.

    Two other breeds were not tested, but their “reputed” bite forces were given:

    Doberman Pinscher: 600 PSI
    “Mastiff”: 552 PSI

    The Pit Bull’s bite force was the lowest among those tested by Dr. Barr.

    Let me add some other animals:
    Humans: 120 PSI
    Lions: 650 PSI
    Grizzly bears: 975 PSI
    Tigers: 1050 PSI
    Hyenas: 1100 PSI
    Gorillas: 1300 PSI
    Jaguars: 1350 PSI
    Hippos: 1825 PSI
    Alligators: 2125 PSI

    And so on (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/animals-with-the-most-powerful-bite-force.html).

    Then there is the fact that such tests are usually not particularly scientific (https://dogexpert.com/bite-force-in-dogs-is-difficult-to-calibrate-2/):

    In the only systematic study found in the literature examining bite force in dogs, the authors concluded that behavior variables were probably more important than physical variables in determining maximum bite force. In this study (Lindner, D. Measurement of bite force in dogs: A pilot study. Journal Veterinary Dentistry, 1995, Vo. 12, 49- 52) bite force measurements were obtained in 22 medium to large sized dogs during tug-of-war play games using a rawhide coated transducer rod. Bite force measurements ranged from 3 pounds of force to 313 pounds of force. Three Rottweiler dogs were tested and bite forces ranged between 169 pounds of force to 313 pounds of force. Chewing enthusiasm appear to correlate strongly with the level of bite force generated.

    In short, statements asserting maximum bite force must be treated with caution, and what one reads about concerning maximum bite force in the larger, more aggressive breeds, may be overstated. Obviously, well muscled, large-size dogs can bite with greater pressure than most breeds, and consequently can easily inflict serious personal injury to a human. Blunt and crush-type injuries are common, and a dog bite with sufficient force to a person’s neck may be fatal. [Boldface mine.]

    Science. Try it sometime.

    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video you posted advised smaller women to stand aside until the attacking dog breaks off the attack. He didn’t even illustrate the scenario I described.

    That’s because small women are at a much greater danger from being mauled by dogs in fight than grown men. Would you let children attempt to break off large, powerful dogs from fighting? Saving a companion dog is nice, but the first priority should be to protect human life and safety. If you are physically weak and don’t have experience, you SHOULD let the attack break off on its own. Saving fluffy is, in that scenario, not the immediate priority.

    That’s the biological reality of life, pal. Get used to it. Women trainers “dominate” the companion animal training racket, but are very rare in the field dog and protection dog (Schutzhund) training for a reason. Women are, on average, far physically weaker and are emotionally less stable than men. Those traits don’t lend themselves well to responding calmly and authoritatively to large powerful dogs fighting.

    And indeed your so-called professional dog trainer friend reacted hysterically and impulsively – grabbing the collar of an attacking dog and striking its head with her hand! Read this from that “50 year old balding Nazi” who knows more about dogs than your “professional” friend ever will (http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm?utm_expid=22395007-4.Wklb4ICgR0e_m0cAnu-N_A.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dhow%2Bto%2Bbreak%2Bup%2Ba%2Bdog%2Bfight%26form%3DIE11TR%26src%3DIE11TR%26pc%3DEUPP_DCJB). Some selective snippets:

    Breaking up a dog fight can go bad in a heart beat. This is serious business. So know your limitations and don’t get into the middle of something you can’t physically deal with.

    I will start with a warning. Unless you have a lot of experience do not try and break up a dog fight by yourself. Never step in the middle of two loving pets and try and grab them by the collar to stop a dog fight. If you try this, the chances of you being badly bitten are extremely high. People don’t understand that 2 animals in the middle of a fight are in survival drive. If they see you at all, they don’t look at you as their loving owner. When you charge in and grab them they either react out of a fight reflex and bite, or they see you as another aggressor. When they are in fight or flight mode they will bite you. You can take that to the bank.

    Dog fights are a very dangerous thing to try and break up alone. You should never rush in and try and grab the dogs to pull them apart. They are in high “fight drive” and are not thinking clearly when fighting. If someone grabs them they will bite without even thinking about who or what they are biting. This is how your loving pet can dog bite the living crap out of you in about a second and a half.

    In reality it probably doesn’t even know it’s biting you. [Boldfaces mine.]

    Now, some snippets of what you are SUPPOSED to do:

    The safest way to break up a dogfight requires 2 people. Each person grabs the back feet of one of the dogs. The dog back feet are then picked up like a wheelbarrow. With the legs up, both dogs are then pulled apart.

    Once the dog fight is broken up and the dogs pulled apart it is critical that the people do not release the dogs or the dog fight will begin again. The two people need to start turning in a circle, or slowly swinging the dogs in a circle while they back away from the other dog. This stops the dog from curling and coming back and biting the person holding their legs.

    By circling the dog has to sidestep with its front feet or it will fall on its chin. As long as you slowly continue to back and circle, the dog cannot do any damage to you. To insure that the fight will not begin all over again when you release the dogs, one of the dogs needs to be dragged into an enclosure (i.e. a kennel, the garage, another room) before the dog is released. If you do not do this, the dogs will often charge back and start fighting again or if you release the dog to quickly the dog will turn and attack the person who had his feet.

    The worst case scenario is that you are alone when a serious fight breaks out. There are a couple things that you must keep in mind:
    •Keep your cool you have a job to do.
    •Do not waste time screaming at the dogs. It hardly ever works.
    •Your goal is still the same; you must break up the fight without getting hurt.
    •Go get a leash (allow the fight to continue while you do this).
    •Dogs are almost always locked onto one another. Walk up and loop the leash around the back loin of the dog by either threading the leash through the handle or use the clip. I prefer the thread method.
    •Now slowly back away and drag the dog to a fence or to an object that you can tie the leash to. By doing this, you effectively create an anchor for one of the dogs.
    •Then walk around and grab the back legs of the second dog and drag it away from the dog that is tied up. Remember to turn and circle as they release.
    •Drag the dog into a dog pen or another room before you release the back legs.
    •Go back and take the dog off the fence and put him or her into a dog kennel.
    •Sit down and have a stiff drink (or two). [Boldfaces mine.]

    Try to learn something instead of spouting expletives, okay?

    I’d like to see you stand by while your small dog gets butchered by a pitbull in front of you, with it screaming during the entire process, while you break a tear like a stoic old Indian Chief looking down at a dirty diaper in the park.

    1. I would not let dogs just roam about and hang out by themselves. My dogs are always supervised. When you have had large packs of dogs as I have over the years, you can’t be an absentee pack leader. If they can’t be supervised, they are kenneled.

    2. Furthermore, I do not allow my dogs to engage in aggression toward each other. Ever. I am the pack leader, and I get to decide on inter-pack violence, if any.

    3. I have broken off numerous dog fights, including big-on-small attacks, in the process of learning dog handling and training.

    4. None of this changes the fact that your friend was bitten badly out of her own inexperience or stupidity. No reputable trainer will ever sanction pulling at the collar and striking the dog’s head with one’s hand – that is absolutely the opposite of what you should do, period.

    • Replies: @Yinzer
    Great comment! Very sound advice. Right on target about unstable handlers.
  203. @TWS
    Yes, if Monte Carlos liked biting people and things that analogy would work. Unlike a gun or car dogs have desires and drives of their own. If my car wanted to run someone over I'd have it scrapped.

    My contention is that pit bulls are no more or less vicious than many other breeds. Yes, my pit bull liked to bite, as does my greyhound. It’s called “mouth play”. I put on welding gloves and we go at it, snarling and tail-wagging. I let the dog pull a glove off, and game over.

    • Replies: @TWS
    How many people have greyhounds, hell any sight hound, killed in the last few years? How many people have been permanently maimed? Look, you're either trolling or drank the kool-aide.
  204. @Anonymous
    How stupid do you have to be to think that inert objects and machines like guns and cars are analogous to biological organisms like dogs?

    Analogical reasoning is among the highest correlates with IQ in IQ testing, which is probably why the analogies section was dropped from the SAT about a decade ago. It's not surprising to see defenders of pit bulls deficient in this respect.

    Not stupid at all. Pit Bulls that just go crazy without reason are a fairy tale, like cars that just accelerate for no reason just as the brakes stop working and the transmission refuses to go into neutral. Urban legends.

    How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?

    • Replies: @V Vega

    "How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?"
     
    No, but we do have gun control for 50mm machine guns. As a machine gun is to a hand gun, a pitbull is to a chihuahua. That is, if something goes wrong, the results of a pitbull, or machine gun, is far more destructive than a handgun or chihuahua.

    Now that I've aced the IQ test, one question: if everyone is so confused and angry about pitbulls, how the hell are we going to figure out how to get blacks to limit their offspring voluntarily? These emotional arguments don't give me much confidence!
    , @Yinzer
    Best comment. Love Sailer, but the dog posts bring out all the idiots who know nothing about dogs.If you are aware & "notice" things in an urban environment, can't but help but notice certain populations abuse, neglect & are so sadistic towards animals. That is the problem. Pit bulls are no more a problem than"gun violence" is problem. Ghettos,barrios and also some dirt roads etc...dangerous places w/lots of scary people & damaged poorly treated animals.
    , @CommentGuy
    How stupid do you have to be to think that pit bulls dominate the dog fight scene just because they're "fashionable with the ghettos and barrios?"

    Do greyhounds dominate the race scene because they're fashionable with whitey?

    Why are the pit bull-loving readers of this blog so into reverse causality here?

    , @Anonymous
    You're apparently unable to conceptually distinguish between inert objects like cars, guns, and hammers and biological organisms like dogs. If that's not stupid, I don't know what is.
    , @TWS
    Dogs can and are bred for certain uses. Greyhounds were raised to race, bloodhounds to track, GSD as protection/police, etc. Pitts were bred to fight and kill other animals.

    No training can change the genes. Nature beats nurture bloody every time.
  205. @Lagertha
    Ha haaa! the tattoos! Sort of cruel of me to chime in so late in this post but, I couldn't resist since I believe I may be the consummate animal lover (adopter of all things great and small - humans not included) on Steve's blog (rescue old horses or chickens anyone?...hedgehogs, pigs, ex-Easter bunnies, even fracking gold fish?!?)

    Also, my youngest son is home safely from Europe, so I am relieved...nothing happened to this large group of our H.S. students from the USA on tour - hundreds of American H.S's, btw, cancelled their spring trips to Europe, post Brussels.

    In addition, my removal of Melanoma is on schedule - I live with this - sort of told everyone here in the past, that I spent too much time in the sun (sailing, mostly) and, at water's edge in the 60's-70's, way before that Australian study on skin cancer in 1973 - doomsday for me - my parents did not link sun exposure to cancer (like most people). For the last 30 years, you all know what SPF means...and why hats are important...rash guard shirts...whatever.

    But, with 6-month skin scans, one can just get the questionable or lab-positive stuff, cut out...more or less simple. And, now, there are sooo many cool clothes/gear to wear that are SPF 50.

    However, my point is, Pit Bulls are good dogs, but the breed needs to be ended...it will be slow; but it will end the tragedy of this breed (most numerous in shelters/pounds) being the most abused by horrible, stupid, indifferent people. There is no point to continue this breed.

    I, myself, have adopted many different dog breeds (mostly seniors because I am a sucker)....my favorites are Borzois (last one died in my arms last month) and Irish Wolfhounds and Scottish Deer Hounds/Danes. These dogs are loving and surreal in their devotion. And, they don't bark, have no dander for allergic people, don't lick people, don't jump up on people, don't drool (some Danes do). They are very "clean dogs" who are more like cats all day after their "run"; sleeping/restive.

    My other point: TATTOOS beware! when you place metals under your skin (the dyes) you have the same level I have (90%) of getting Melanoma! Melanoma lesions, when a dermatologist identifies it, can be cut out/off of your body. Melanoma that grows unabated/unnoticed can travel to your brain/lungs/liver/pancreas/bones and it kills you-kind of like Bob Marley...who ignored his skin lesion on his calf for 20 years - it was too late - cancer was throughout his body, in every organ. So, Tattoos and Pit Bulls = Bad and Sad, possibly on the road to death and misery. Dogs can also get Melanoma. My current Irish had virulent Melanoma (before I adopted him) but he is currently slipping away because of old age - he is 11 so he is in the pantheon of his breed.

    If all the pit bulls are sterilized, the Stupids will decide that some other breed is the most vicious and therefore most desirable. Bedlington Terriers? Great Danes? Spare the dogs and sterilize the Stupids.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
    There is something to be said for this view. If pit bulls are eradicated, the idiots will collect and mis-handle Rottweilers. When the Rotts are later eradicated, the idiots will collect American Bulldogs. You think a pit bull can do some damage? Try a 150# American Bulldog. And after we rid the world of all the bull fighting dogs, then we will see idiots breeding and training the breed origins back into Mastiffs. Worried about a puny 65# pit bull? Try a vicious 240# English Mastiff. My last Mastiff was over 200# and both bred and trained to be the most gentle dog I've ever owned, but I'm certain within ten generations you could breed a vicious Mastiff. We don't need Roman Legion war dogs in our cities..
  206. @Discard
    Not stupid at all. Pit Bulls that just go crazy without reason are a fairy tale, like cars that just accelerate for no reason just as the brakes stop working and the transmission refuses to go into neutral. Urban legends.

    How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?

    “How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?”

    No, but we do have gun control for 50mm machine guns. As a machine gun is to a hand gun, a pitbull is to a chihuahua. That is, if something goes wrong, the results of a pitbull, or machine gun, is far more destructive than a handgun or chihuahua.

    Now that I’ve aced the IQ test, one question: if everyone is so confused and angry about pitbulls, how the hell are we going to figure out how to get blacks to limit their offspring voluntarily? These emotional arguments don’t give me much confidence!

    • Replies: @Discard
    If, as a machine gun is to a hand gun, a pit bull is to a chihuahua, then so is a machine gun to a hand gun what a German shepherd is to a chihuahua. If thing go wrong with a German shepherd, the results are much worse than with a chihuahua. Is your argument that big dogs should be outlawed?

    As for getting Blacks to limit their offspring voluntarily, offer childless Black girls $100,000 to be sterilized. A bargain.
  207. Dindu Nuffins get rottweilers and pitbulls so that they can protect themselves from this racist dog.

  208. @Discard
    Not stupid at all. Pit Bulls that just go crazy without reason are a fairy tale, like cars that just accelerate for no reason just as the brakes stop working and the transmission refuses to go into neutral. Urban legends.

    How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?

    Best comment. Love Sailer, but the dog posts bring out all the idiots who know nothing about dogs.If you are aware & “notice” things in an urban environment, can’t but help but notice certain populations abuse, neglect & are so sadistic towards animals. That is the problem. Pit bulls are no more a problem than”gun violence” is problem. Ghettos,barrios and also some dirt roads etc…dangerous places w/lots of scary people & damaged poorly treated animals.

  209. @Twinkie

    (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)
     
    Spuds Mackenzie was a female Bull Terrier - different breed from American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier.

    Variant on the same type of bulldog(not today’s congenital nightmare) & small ratting terriers. Pits, Bull Terriers, American Staff, & Staffies are all the same family & from same background.

  210. @Twinkie

    What are you smoking, you self-sanctimonious POS?... you self-sanctimonious POS?
    You don’t, douchebag.
    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video
    They’re all mean, balding 50-somethings
    speak to everyone as if they’re patronizing a dumbass.
    you swine.
     
    You sound like an angry, stupid teenager. Get a grip, really.

    Pitbulls are proven to have amongst the highest PSI pressure of all dog breeds.
     
    Did you even look at the link you posted?

    Dr. Brady Barr tested a wolf, a Rottweiler, a German Shepherd, and a "Pit Bull" and obtained the following results:

    Wolf: 406 PSI
    Rottweiler: 328 PSI
    German Shepherd: 238 PSI
    Pit Bull: 235 PSI.

    Two other breeds were not tested, but their "reputed" bite forces were given:

    Doberman Pinscher: 600 PSI
    "Mastiff": 552 PSI

    The Pit Bull's bite force was the lowest among those tested by Dr. Barr.

    Let me add some other animals:
    Humans: 120 PSI
    Lions: 650 PSI
    Grizzly bears: 975 PSI
    Tigers: 1050 PSI
    Hyenas: 1100 PSI
    Gorillas: 1300 PSI
    Jaguars: 1350 PSI
    Hippos: 1825 PSI
    Alligators: 2125 PSI

    And so on (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/animals-with-the-most-powerful-bite-force.html).

    Then there is the fact that such tests are usually not particularly scientific (https://dogexpert.com/bite-force-in-dogs-is-difficult-to-calibrate-2/):

    In the only systematic study found in the literature examining bite force in dogs, the authors concluded that behavior variables were probably more important than physical variables in determining maximum bite force. In this study (Lindner, D. Measurement of bite force in dogs: A pilot study. Journal Veterinary Dentistry, 1995, Vo. 12, 49- 52) bite force measurements were obtained in 22 medium to large sized dogs during tug-of-war play games using a rawhide coated transducer rod. Bite force measurements ranged from 3 pounds of force to 313 pounds of force. Three Rottweiler dogs were tested and bite forces ranged between 169 pounds of force to 313 pounds of force. Chewing enthusiasm appear to correlate strongly with the level of bite force generated.

    In short, statements asserting maximum bite force must be treated with caution, and what one reads about concerning maximum bite force in the larger, more aggressive breeds, may be overstated. Obviously, well muscled, large-size dogs can bite with greater pressure than most breeds, and consequently can easily inflict serious personal injury to a human. Blunt and crush-type injuries are common, and a dog bite with sufficient force to a person’s neck may be fatal. [Boldface mine.]
     
    Science. Try it sometime.

    The stupid self-sanctimonious nazi video you posted advised smaller women to stand aside until the attacking dog breaks off the attack. He didn’t even illustrate the scenario I described.

     

    That's because small women are at a much greater danger from being mauled by dogs in fight than grown men. Would you let children attempt to break off large, powerful dogs from fighting? Saving a companion dog is nice, but the first priority should be to protect human life and safety. If you are physically weak and don't have experience, you SHOULD let the attack break off on its own. Saving fluffy is, in that scenario, not the immediate priority.

    That's the biological reality of life, pal. Get used to it. Women trainers "dominate" the companion animal training racket, but are very rare in the field dog and protection dog (Schutzhund) training for a reason. Women are, on average, far physically weaker and are emotionally less stable than men. Those traits don't lend themselves well to responding calmly and authoritatively to large powerful dogs fighting.

    And indeed your so-called professional dog trainer friend reacted hysterically and impulsively - grabbing the collar of an attacking dog and striking its head with her hand! Read this from that "50 year old balding Nazi" who knows more about dogs than your "professional" friend ever will (http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm?utm_expid=22395007-4.Wklb4ICgR0e_m0cAnu-N_A.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dhow%2Bto%2Bbreak%2Bup%2Ba%2Bdog%2Bfight%26form%3DIE11TR%26src%3DIE11TR%26pc%3DEUPP_DCJB). Some selective snippets:

    Breaking up a dog fight can go bad in a heart beat. This is serious business. So know your limitations and don't get into the middle of something you can't physically deal with.

    I will start with a warning. Unless you have a lot of experience do not try and break up a dog fight by yourself. Never step in the middle of two loving pets and try and grab them by the collar to stop a dog fight. If you try this, the chances of you being badly bitten are extremely high. People don't understand that 2 animals in the middle of a fight are in survival drive. If they see you at all, they don't look at you as their loving owner. When you charge in and grab them they either react out of a fight reflex and bite, or they see you as another aggressor. When they are in fight or flight mode they will bite you. You can take that to the bank.

    Dog fights are a very dangerous thing to try and break up alone. You should never rush in and try and grab the dogs to pull them apart. They are in high "fight drive" and are not thinking clearly when fighting. If someone grabs them they will bite without even thinking about who or what they are biting. This is how your loving pet can dog bite the living crap out of you in about a second and a half.

    In reality it probably doesn't even know it's biting you. [Boldfaces mine.]
     
    Now, some snippets of what you are SUPPOSED to do:

    The safest way to break up a dogfight requires 2 people. Each person grabs the back feet of one of the dogs. The dog back feet are then picked up like a wheelbarrow. With the legs up, both dogs are then pulled apart.

    Once the dog fight is broken up and the dogs pulled apart it is critical that the people do not release the dogs or the dog fight will begin again. The two people need to start turning in a circle, or slowly swinging the dogs in a circle while they back away from the other dog. This stops the dog from curling and coming back and biting the person holding their legs.

    By circling the dog has to sidestep with its front feet or it will fall on its chin. As long as you slowly continue to back and circle, the dog cannot do any damage to you. To insure that the fight will not begin all over again when you release the dogs, one of the dogs needs to be dragged into an enclosure (i.e. a kennel, the garage, another room) before the dog is released. If you do not do this, the dogs will often charge back and start fighting again or if you release the dog to quickly the dog will turn and attack the person who had his feet.

    The worst case scenario is that you are alone when a serious fight breaks out. There are a couple things that you must keep in mind:
    •Keep your cool you have a job to do.
    •Do not waste time screaming at the dogs. It hardly ever works.
    •Your goal is still the same; you must break up the fight without getting hurt.
    •Go get a leash (allow the fight to continue while you do this).
    •Dogs are almost always locked onto one another. Walk up and loop the leash around the back loin of the dog by either threading the leash through the handle or use the clip. I prefer the thread method.
    •Now slowly back away and drag the dog to a fence or to an object that you can tie the leash to. By doing this, you effectively create an anchor for one of the dogs.
    •Then walk around and grab the back legs of the second dog and drag it away from the dog that is tied up. Remember to turn and circle as they release.
    •Drag the dog into a dog pen or another room before you release the back legs.
    •Go back and take the dog off the fence and put him or her into a dog kennel.
    •Sit down and have a stiff drink (or two). [Boldfaces mine.]
     
    Try to learn something instead of spouting expletives, okay?

    I’d like to see you stand by while your small dog gets butchered by a pitbull in front of you, with it screaming during the entire process, while you break a tear like a stoic old Indian Chief looking down at a dirty diaper in the park.
     
    1. I would not let dogs just roam about and hang out by themselves. My dogs are always supervised. When you have had large packs of dogs as I have over the years, you can't be an absentee pack leader. If they can't be supervised, they are kenneled.

    2. Furthermore, I do not allow my dogs to engage in aggression toward each other. Ever. I am the pack leader, and I get to decide on inter-pack violence, if any.

    3. I have broken off numerous dog fights, including big-on-small attacks, in the process of learning dog handling and training.

    4. None of this changes the fact that your friend was bitten badly out of her own inexperience or stupidity. No reputable trainer will ever sanction pulling at the collar and striking the dog's head with one's hand - that is absolutely the opposite of what you should do, period.

    Great comment! Very sound advice. Right on target about unstable handlers.

  211. @Jefferson
    Some Asians who adopt ghetto NAM culture, also own rottweilers and pitbulls.

    Those types of Asians are rotten bananas. They adopt the World Star Hip Hop culture as a middle finger to the model minority stereotype. The rotten banana ghetto Asians are the most anti-White out of all the Asian subgroups. Whenever they mix outside of their race, they are more likely to date Blacks than they are to date Whites.

    Some Hmong have really gotten into the urban, hip-hop, designer dog “Bully Dog” breeding craze. Very broad, low slung Pits. Think crossed w/Bulldog and other breeds. Also a mini version crossed w/French Bulldog.

  212. @Discard
    Nonsense. Mine was sweet tempered. I found her outside a convenience store at 3:00 AM. I bought her some lunchmeat, and when I opened it, I could see that she was harmless, even though she was starving and her ribs were sticking out. I let her take it from my hand, which she did very gently, and brought her home. She never had a problem at the dog park, did not even have a beef with neighborhood cats. She was good with groups of children too.

    A vicious dog is usually a sign of a vicious owner. The dogs are usually salvageable.

    Notice that @ my local dog park. Pits are well behaved. All are rescues. Don’t have one myself.

    • Replies: @Discard
    The only vicious pit bull I ever saw was at a dog park. Some tattooed gang cholo had it on a big chain, the size of chain you'd see blocking off a parking lot. No handle on the chain, the dirtbag just held the end. This was a dog park in the Hollywood hills, so the cholo had made a special trip to unnerve the nice White people. Both dog and animal oozed malevolence, so I moved off. A couple minutes later, the brute's dog had attacked another dog.
  213. @Discard
    A. What happened to all you racists? You're falling down. If a particular gun is fashionable in the ghettos and barrios, it will turn up disproportionately in the crime statistics. If a particular car is popular in the ghettos and barrios, it will disproportionately appear in theft and drunk driving cases. And if Blacks and Mexicans favor a particular breed of dog, that breed will disproportionately turn up in the biting stats.
    Blaming pit bulls for biting is like blaming Chevrolet Monte Carlos for drive by shootings. The dog is just a tool.



    B. I don't know that it's SJWs taking their anti-racism to the canine level, but I'm seeing more middle class people with pit mixes these days. My guess is that they're for protection, not social signaling.

    Lot more b/c they are the most common dog in shelters. Fosters now do a lot better job @ getting them ready for a homes. Wish more SJW types would “notice” the problem demographic that causes most of the problems for these poor animals. Diversity & animal welfare do not go together.

  214. @V Vega

    "How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?"
     
    No, but we do have gun control for 50mm machine guns. As a machine gun is to a hand gun, a pitbull is to a chihuahua. That is, if something goes wrong, the results of a pitbull, or machine gun, is far more destructive than a handgun or chihuahua.

    Now that I've aced the IQ test, one question: if everyone is so confused and angry about pitbulls, how the hell are we going to figure out how to get blacks to limit their offspring voluntarily? These emotional arguments don't give me much confidence!

    If, as a machine gun is to a hand gun, a pit bull is to a chihuahua, then so is a machine gun to a hand gun what a German shepherd is to a chihuahua. If thing go wrong with a German shepherd, the results are much worse than with a chihuahua. Is your argument that big dogs should be outlawed?

    As for getting Blacks to limit their offspring voluntarily, offer childless Black girls $100,000 to be sterilized. A bargain.

  215. @CPK
    No, I'm not a pit bull owner, but I've worked with a lot of dogs as a shelter volunteer. Based on that experience, I found that the article went off the rails almost immediately:

    dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise
     
    No. Really, just, no. Even experienced vets can't do more than make an educated guess at breed mix, and those guesses aren't very reliable. If we don't have a pedigree, or even better a DNA test, then we don't know the breed. Full stop, end of research project.

    Dogsbite.org is relying on journalists for breed identification (their data set is based on media reports). Maybe there are some very conscientious journalists who won't call a dog a "pit bull" until they've seen its AKC papers. But I suspect that, when reporting what are literally "dog bites man" stories, they (or their sources) simply fall back on the lazy stereotype that violent dog = "pit bull" until proven otherwise.

    Granted, the stereotype may become self-fulfilling: thugs are attracted to pit bulls because of their violent reputation, then train the dogs to live up to that reputation. But if so, pit bull violence (to the extent it's a thing) is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated -- not anything inherent to the breed.

    Again, there's a precise analogy with guns, crime and gun control: the problem is the thug himself, not the otherwise-legal instruments he puts to thuggish ends.

    Very good & accurate comment. I’m another “right wing nut” who is also involved in dog rescues & fostering. Our numbers are growing. Contrary to some of the idiots posting comments, lots of men are in now involved. Know very macho police men, MMA practitioners & bikers who volunteer.
    Noticed Alt Right attracts lots of animal lovers. Think b/c they notice diversity and animal welfare do not go together.

  216. @Yinzer
    Notice that @ my local dog park. Pits are well behaved. All are rescues. Don't have one myself.

    The only vicious pit bull I ever saw was at a dog park. Some tattooed gang cholo had it on a big chain, the size of chain you’d see blocking off a parking lot. No handle on the chain, the dirtbag just held the end. This was a dog park in the Hollywood hills, so the cholo had made a special trip to unnerve the nice White people. Both dog and animal oozed malevolence, so I moved off. A couple minutes later, the brute’s dog had attacked another dog.

  217. @Anonym
    This is not surprising. For some reason, most straight women and especially nurturing type women do not have what it takes to make a dog know its place in the home. The only man who would not naturally understand physical pecking orders would be someone who was home-schooled.

    A dog that thinks it is the boss, or does not know it is going to get a severe "correction" the moment it looks the wrong way at your kids, is as dangerous as a loaded weapon. The warning signs are predictable if you know what to look for as well. The problem is, a lot of people don't. That dog that is growling as your kids try and take its toy away? Serious dominance hierarchy problems.

    This is more going to be a problem with naturally dominant breeds of dogs. And with such dogs, they will not know to obey properly until you start controlling their life and issuing corrections that are strong enough to cause a yelp. Of course, doing so is going to cause anyone mildly SJWish in nature to be triggered. They anthropomorphize the dog, and do not try and understand the dog on its own merits.

    Unfortunately a log of (most?) dog schools don't seem to teach the pack structure thing, and they try and do everything with positive training and with limp-wristed negative training.

    By and large women, especially city women don't understand "tough love" and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.

    By and large women, especially city women don’t understand “tough love” and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.

    This has been my observation as well. Having spent decades on a farm, I have had unpleasant experience with, shall we say, harsher aspects of dog ownership including having to “put down” a much loved pet after it was devastated by an automobile strike. My wife, a typical feminine female, would have sat and cried until the dog expired in agony. Likewise, she couldn’t bring herself to discipline a dog in dog terms (i.e. Negative reward of a type applied by another dog) thus allowing behaviors in very large dogs that could easily kill her or a child.

    And all this goes to my general theory that women should never have a say in matters of state. They should have no voice (outside influence they wield domestically) in wars or law enforcement for example and generally speaking where we have given women that voice things have gone drastically wrong.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @rtnl070818
    I think this is a modern idea. I think it stems from a fear that harsh punishment will do permanent psychological damage to a child. Parents before a certain time didn't have this fear. I'm not sure when it started but I suspect it is part of Freud's legacy. It isn't necessarily true. If punishment is followed by rapprochement after the child demonstrates that he understands that he did something that the parent didn't like and is sorry then no long term harm will ensue. The same is true with dogs. You have to punish them harshly enough. When they show deference you let them know everything is ok. They learn. But I think everyone nowadays has been influenced by this fear that they are going to do permanent emotional damage so they are afraid punish sufficiently.
  218. @Discard
    Not stupid at all. Pit Bulls that just go crazy without reason are a fairy tale, like cars that just accelerate for no reason just as the brakes stop working and the transmission refuses to go into neutral. Urban legends.

    How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?

    How stupid do you have to be to think that pit bulls dominate the dog fight scene just because they’re “fashionable with the ghettos and barrios?”

    Do greyhounds dominate the race scene because they’re fashionable with whitey?

    Why are the pit bull-loving readers of this blog so into reverse causality here?

    • Replies: @Discard
    Pit bulls dominate the the dog fight scene because they have big jaws and they are short legged, just as tall men dominate basketball. The large jaws are the reason for their popularity, not any innate viscousness. The most vicious cocker spaniel imaginable can't bite as hard as a gentle collie, let alone a pit bull. I have a near-feral nine pound terrier mutt, but she's no match for my kindly greyhound, even though she has terrified me.

    Why are the pit bull haters so into reverse causality here? Do big men dominate boxing because big men like to hurt other people more than small men do?

    Note: I have a near feral terrier because it belonged to a friend of mine that died, and she was badly neglected afterwards, not because I like crazy dogs. I have worked to tame her, and we now can play biting games without risk to my hands.
  219. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    There seems to be a steady trickle of stories where the owner doesn't treat the dog Micheal Vick style, and she (it's usually a woman for some reason) trips or falls and the pitbull switches to ATTACK MODE. "The dog was always so nice, a beloved member of the family."

    Seems every one of those articles contains a quote by one of the authorities about how it’s not the breed but the owners. There must be a very small margin for error with Pitbulls. I think it would be next to impossible to make my dog vicious like that,

    • Replies: @Discard
    As I mentioned above, I have seen an old man's lap dog turn nasty from six months of neglect. All dogs are potentially vicious, and a 20 pound mutt can rip your throat out if motivated. In the case of fighting dogs, I understand that they are deliberately abused as a way of fight training.

    You should see some of these owners. You'd shoot them down in a heartbeat.
  220. @Anonymous
    "Pit bulls" aren't a specific breed, so that's not any kind of serious counter-argument. "Pit bull" refers to a general category of dogs that encompasses a variety of different breeds and crosses that trace their heritage to bull-baiting in England until the 19th century.

    “Pit bulls” aren’t a specific breed

    Yes, just so. We can draw inferences about behavioral genetics only for a population that is reasonably homogenous — not if the population is just a loosely-defined heterogeneous “general category”. So the more broadly we define “pit bull”, the harder it is to attribute any behavioral traits to genetics and breeding.

    Dogsbite.org comes pretty close to defining it as “any dog some rando described as a pit bull”. Their data set is based on media reports. Maybe these journalists (and/or their sources) were extremely conscientious and only used the label “pit bull” when they had a pedigree or DNA test in hand. But it seems more likely that they just used “pit bull” as lazy shorthand for “dangerous dog that isn’t obviously some other breed I’m more familiar with”.

    Dogsbite.org hand-waves this by asserting that the media report breed identifications made by people like Animal Control officers — which, even if true, is meaningless. Nobody can do better than a tentative best-guess approximation of breed mix just by looking at a dog. This is why dog DNA tests (and before that, pedigrees) are a thing, and when available, they often prove those approximations to be wrong.

    What Dogsbite.org has quantified is not dog behavior, but journalist behavior. They’ve shown that the perception (“pit bull” = “dangerous dog”) is widespread, not that it’s accurate. It could be accurate, but we need much better data (and we’d need to control for the dogs’ environment and training prior to the incident).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    No, you're wrong. You most definitely can attribute behavioral traits to genetics for categories like "pit bull" that encompass a variety of breeds and crosses, just as you can for categories like "working dog" and "watch dog" and "guard dog" that include various breeds that share certain traits or tendencies.
  221. @Buffalo Joe
    Jack Hanson, Mr. or Ms. CPK is a bit off base. My daughter owned a Cane Corso and they could chew and swallow a pit bull. Corsos are huge dogs, the Italian version of a Mastiff. All the guard and war dogs are descendants of Mastiffs. In Michigan about three or four years ago, a male and female Cane Corso dug out of their pen and caught up to a jogger. They shredded the poor bastard, mauled him to death. A neighbor shot at the dogs and even managed to hit one, but the attack was relentless. The owners were charged with a degree of murder, as they should be. My brother owned a Rottweiler, the predecessor of the pit bull craze. I would not let my children out of the car until the dog was in its pen.

    Mr. or Ms. CPK is a bit off base. My daughter owned a Cane Corso and they could chew and swallow a pit bull.

    Mr. — and yes, I know the difference between a Cane Corso and a Pit Bull (and a Boxer, and a Dogo Argentino, etc.) The thing is that I’m not sure that most journalists know the difference — and the Dogsbite.org data set is based entirely on media reports. My hypothesis is that journalists tend to use “pit bull” as lazy shorthand for any dog that was (1) involved in a violent incident and (2) isn’t obviously some other breed that the journalist (who may well know nothing about dog breeds) is familiar with.

    It could be that “pit bulls” (however defined) are indeed more dangerous, but we need better data. Ideally, DNA tests for every dog that commits a fatal attack, showing the breed mix. This wouldn’t be all that expensive — it’s just a logistics issue of getting samples from various local law enforcement agencies before the dogs involved are destroyed.

    • Replies: @CommentGuy
    You do not need better data if you are a dog fighter or dog fight gambler.

    Pit bulls, however defined, are dominant in dog fighting.

    Greyhounds, however defined, tend to run pretty fast.
  222. @CPK

    Mr. or Ms. CPK is a bit off base. My daughter owned a Cane Corso and they could chew and swallow a pit bull.
     
    Mr. -- and yes, I know the difference between a Cane Corso and a Pit Bull (and a Boxer, and a Dogo Argentino, etc.) The thing is that I'm not sure that most journalists know the difference -- and the Dogsbite.org data set is based entirely on media reports. My hypothesis is that journalists tend to use "pit bull" as lazy shorthand for any dog that was (1) involved in a violent incident and (2) isn't obviously some other breed that the journalist (who may well know nothing about dog breeds) is familiar with.

    It could be that "pit bulls" (however defined) are indeed more dangerous, but we need better data. Ideally, DNA tests for every dog that commits a fatal attack, showing the breed mix. This wouldn't be all that expensive -- it's just a logistics issue of getting samples from various local law enforcement agencies before the dogs involved are destroyed.

    You do not need better data if you are a dog fighter or dog fight gambler.

    Pit bulls, however defined, are dominant in dog fighting.

    Greyhounds, however defined, tend to run pretty fast.

  223. @utu
    "I own a Corso,"..."my bitch mauling an illegal alien sex offender to death when he went after my wife and kids."

    You confabulate.

    You figured me out.

  224. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @CPK

    “Pit bulls” aren’t a specific breed
     
    Yes, just so. We can draw inferences about behavioral genetics only for a population that is reasonably homogenous -- not if the population is just a loosely-defined heterogeneous "general category". So the more broadly we define "pit bull", the harder it is to attribute any behavioral traits to genetics and breeding.

    Dogsbite.org comes pretty close to defining it as "any dog some rando described as a pit bull". Their data set is based on media reports. Maybe these journalists (and/or their sources) were extremely conscientious and only used the label "pit bull" when they had a pedigree or DNA test in hand. But it seems more likely that they just used "pit bull" as lazy shorthand for "dangerous dog that isn't obviously some other breed I'm more familiar with".

    Dogsbite.org hand-waves this by asserting that the media report breed identifications made by people like Animal Control officers -- which, even if true, is meaningless. Nobody can do better than a tentative best-guess approximation of breed mix just by looking at a dog. This is why dog DNA tests (and before that, pedigrees) are a thing, and when available, they often prove those approximations to be wrong.

    What Dogsbite.org has quantified is not dog behavior, but journalist behavior. They've shown that the perception ("pit bull" = "dangerous dog") is widespread, not that it's accurate. It could be accurate, but we need much better data (and we'd need to control for the dogs' environment and training prior to the incident).

    No, you’re wrong. You most definitely can attribute behavioral traits to genetics for categories like “pit bull” that encompass a variety of breeds and crosses, just as you can for categories like “working dog” and “watch dog” and “guard dog” that include various breeds that share certain traits or tendencies.

  225. @Discard
    Not stupid at all. Pit Bulls that just go crazy without reason are a fairy tale, like cars that just accelerate for no reason just as the brakes stop working and the transmission refuses to go into neutral. Urban legends.

    How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?

    You’re apparently unable to conceptually distinguish between inert objects like cars, guns, and hammers and biological organisms like dogs. If that’s not stupid, I don’t know what is.

    • Replies: @Discard
    You're apparently unable to conceptually distinguish between stupid, brutish dogs owners and responsible, caring dog owners.

    And before calling your betters stupid, read their comments in full. Start with my comment # 171.
  226. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Here’s a video of 5 grown men struggling to remove a Pit Bull that’s locked on to a Chow Chow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ZxliBUvzA
     
    A classic example of people who don't know what they are doing. There could be 50 of those people, and they would struggle. Of the five, two are trying to physically open the jaws and the others are holding down the dogs. Not one thinks to pick up the hind legs. It's really the height of stupidity or ignorance to put your hand near the muzzle of an unknown, powerful dog that is in fight/prey mode, let alone actually stick your hand into the mouth in an attempt to get a release.

    That’s the point, moron. These are random bystanders on the street, not professional handlers. 5 grown men who are random bystanders and not expert handlers should be able to easily remove an attacking dog. The onus is on that pit bull and its owner. That pit bull should be taken out and its owner should face criminal charges.

    • Replies: @Discard
    The breed of dog does not matter. Do you really think that five random bystanders could separate a couple fighting golden retrievers by trying to pry their jaws open? Think again. I once had to force hydrogen peroxide down my own 15 pound dog's throat. It's not easy, and he was a very tractable dog.
  227. @Discard
    My contention is that pit bulls are no more or less vicious than many other breeds. Yes, my pit bull liked to bite, as does my greyhound. It's called "mouth play". I put on welding gloves and we go at it, snarling and tail-wagging. I let the dog pull a glove off, and game over.

    How many people have greyhounds, hell any sight hound, killed in the last few years? How many people have been permanently maimed? Look, you’re either trolling or drank the kool-aide.

    • Replies: @Discard
    Not trolling, not drinking Kool-Aid. Who owns greyhounds? Nice middle class people. Who owns vicious pit bulls? Morons. Just a hour ago I crossed the street to avoid crowding a Mexican kid with a pit bull straining towards me on a leash. I reserve my animosity for the source of the problem.
  228. @Discard
    Not stupid at all. Pit Bulls that just go crazy without reason are a fairy tale, like cars that just accelerate for no reason just as the brakes stop working and the transmission refuses to go into neutral. Urban legends.

    How stupid do you have to be to assume that, when a breed that is fashionable in ghettos and barrios has a high rate of biting, the problem must be the breed? Do you support nationwide gun control as a means to reduce urban murder rates too?

    Dogs can and are bred for certain uses. Greyhounds were raised to race, bloodhounds to track, GSD as protection/police, etc. Pitts were bred to fight and kill other animals.

    No training can change the genes. Nature beats nurture bloody every time.

    • Replies: @Discard
    Bulldogs were bred for fighting, as were other breeds. Greyhounds are trained to race by chasing prey, but last week, as my greyhound approached a baby possum, I called him back and he obeyed. Nurture beat nature.

    All dogs are potential killers. Look at their mouths. Those fangs are not there to get a good grip on tennis balls. Training is largely about manipulating their instincts to our own purposes. Some dogs have more blood lust than others, but all are trainable towards a peaceable existence.
  229. @Discard
    If all the pit bulls are sterilized, the Stupids will decide that some other breed is the most vicious and therefore most desirable. Bedlington Terriers? Great Danes? Spare the dogs and sterilize the Stupids.

    There is something to be said for this view. If pit bulls are eradicated, the idiots will collect and mis-handle Rottweilers. When the Rotts are later eradicated, the idiots will collect American Bulldogs. You think a pit bull can do some damage? Try a 150# American Bulldog. And after we rid the world of all the bull fighting dogs, then we will see idiots breeding and training the breed origins back into Mastiffs. Worried about a puny 65# pit bull? Try a vicious 240# English Mastiff. My last Mastiff was over 200# and both bred and trained to be the most gentle dog I’ve ever owned, but I’m certain within ten generations you could breed a vicious Mastiff. We don’t need Roman Legion war dogs in our cities..

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Maybe miniature pit bulls could be brought into fashion by low rent celebrities being photographed with their pocket pit bulls? If pit bulls only weighed 20 pounds instead of 50 pounds, they'd be less like to actually kill somebody when they get triggered.
  230. @Stan d Mute
    There is something to be said for this view. If pit bulls are eradicated, the idiots will collect and mis-handle Rottweilers. When the Rotts are later eradicated, the idiots will collect American Bulldogs. You think a pit bull can do some damage? Try a 150# American Bulldog. And after we rid the world of all the bull fighting dogs, then we will see idiots breeding and training the breed origins back into Mastiffs. Worried about a puny 65# pit bull? Try a vicious 240# English Mastiff. My last Mastiff was over 200# and both bred and trained to be the most gentle dog I've ever owned, but I'm certain within ten generations you could breed a vicious Mastiff. We don't need Roman Legion war dogs in our cities..

    Maybe miniature pit bulls could be brought into fashion by low rent celebrities being photographed with their pocket pit bulls? If pit bulls only weighed 20 pounds instead of 50 pounds, they’d be less like to actually kill somebody when they get triggered.

    • Replies: @V Vega
    Genius Alert:

    Paging Steve Sailer!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAcNzikzjBc
    , @Twinkie

    If pit bulls only weighed 20 pounds instead of 50 pounds, they’d be less like to actually kill somebody when they get triggered.
     
    Perhaps. Then again, the majority of killings are of small children left unattended by adults. Heck even a Pomeranian was responsible for killing a kid. A 20 lbs. dog can still do a lot of damage (and probably kill) small children.
  231. I was at 7-11 and saw a copy of the SI swim suit issue with Rhonda Rousey on the cover in body paint….she still has that pit bull sneer that Holly Hahn knocked off her face.

  232. @CommentGuy
    How stupid do you have to be to think that pit bulls dominate the dog fight scene just because they're "fashionable with the ghettos and barrios?"

    Do greyhounds dominate the race scene because they're fashionable with whitey?

    Why are the pit bull-loving readers of this blog so into reverse causality here?

    Pit bulls dominate the the dog fight scene because they have big jaws and they are short legged, just as tall men dominate basketball. The large jaws are the reason for their popularity, not any innate viscousness. The most vicious cocker spaniel imaginable can’t bite as hard as a gentle collie, let alone a pit bull. I have a near-feral nine pound terrier mutt, but she’s no match for my kindly greyhound, even though she has terrified me.

    Why are the pit bull haters so into reverse causality here? Do big men dominate boxing because big men like to hurt other people more than small men do?

    Note: I have a near feral terrier because it belonged to a friend of mine that died, and she was badly neglected afterwards, not because I like crazy dogs. I have worked to tame her, and we now can play biting games without risk to my hands.

  233. @rtnl070818
    Seems every one of those articles contains a quote by one of the authorities about how it's not the breed but the owners. There must be a very small margin for error with Pitbulls. I think it would be next to impossible to make my dog vicious like that,

    As I mentioned above, I have seen an old man’s lap dog turn nasty from six months of neglect. All dogs are potentially vicious, and a 20 pound mutt can rip your throat out if motivated. In the case of fighting dogs, I understand that they are deliberately abused as a way of fight training.

    You should see some of these owners. You’d shoot them down in a heartbeat.

  234. @Anonymous
    You're apparently unable to conceptually distinguish between inert objects like cars, guns, and hammers and biological organisms like dogs. If that's not stupid, I don't know what is.

    You’re apparently unable to conceptually distinguish between stupid, brutish dogs owners and responsible, caring dog owners.

    And before calling your betters stupid, read their comments in full. Start with my comment # 171.

  235. @Anonymous
    That's the point, moron. These are random bystanders on the street, not professional handlers. 5 grown men who are random bystanders and not expert handlers should be able to easily remove an attacking dog. The onus is on that pit bull and its owner. That pit bull should be taken out and its owner should face criminal charges.

    The breed of dog does not matter. Do you really think that five random bystanders could separate a couple fighting golden retrievers by trying to pry their jaws open? Think again. I once had to force hydrogen peroxide down my own 15 pound dog’s throat. It’s not easy, and he was a very tractable dog.

  236. @TWS
    How many people have greyhounds, hell any sight hound, killed in the last few years? How many people have been permanently maimed? Look, you're either trolling or drank the kool-aide.

    Not trolling, not drinking Kool-Aid. Who owns greyhounds? Nice middle class people. Who owns vicious pit bulls? Morons. Just a hour ago I crossed the street to avoid crowding a Mexican kid with a pit bull straining towards me on a leash. I reserve my animosity for the source of the problem.

  237. @TWS
    Dogs can and are bred for certain uses. Greyhounds were raised to race, bloodhounds to track, GSD as protection/police, etc. Pitts were bred to fight and kill other animals.

    No training can change the genes. Nature beats nurture bloody every time.

    Bulldogs were bred for fighting, as were other breeds. Greyhounds are trained to race by chasing prey, but last week, as my greyhound approached a baby possum, I called him back and he obeyed. Nurture beat nature.

    All dogs are potential killers. Look at their mouths. Those fangs are not there to get a good grip on tennis balls. Training is largely about manipulating their instincts to our own purposes. Some dogs have more blood lust than others, but all are trainable towards a peaceable existence.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Bulldogs were bred for fighting, as were other breeds.
     
    I hesitate to even mention another Japanese breed, but, hopefully no one here will be interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosa_%28dog%29

    The Japanese breed generally weighs between 80 and 135 pounds (36 and 61 kg), while the non-Japanese breeders have focused on dogs that weigh from 130 to 200 lb (60 to 90 kg)
     
    "Ugh" is all I can say.

    One thing to keep in mind about fighting dogs is that they were bred to fight OTHER DOGS, not humans. As such, their lineages tended to develop INTER-DOG aggression, not aggression toward humans. Indeed, good examples of such lineages usually had an excellent inhibition against biting humans, because that allowed handlers to be able to control their dogs safely even "in the heat of battle."

    UKC's description of American Pit Bull Terriers' temperament is quite clear about their unsuitability for protection training due to abundance of friendliness to strangers as well as the high undesirability of any aggression toward people (which means such dogs are to be culled from the bloodline).
  238. @Steve Sailer
    Maybe miniature pit bulls could be brought into fashion by low rent celebrities being photographed with their pocket pit bulls? If pit bulls only weighed 20 pounds instead of 50 pounds, they'd be less like to actually kill somebody when they get triggered.

    Genius Alert:

    Paging Steve Sailer!

  239. @Neil Templeton
    Regarding the hind legs method: What if the other dog still wants to fight?

    Regarding the hind legs method: What if the other dog still wants to fight?

    Please see my last reply to “Rodney.” If you are alone, you loop a leash on the hind part of one dog, secure the leash to a tree or some heavy object, then grab the hind legs of the other dog.

  240. @Steve Sailer
    Maybe miniature pit bulls could be brought into fashion by low rent celebrities being photographed with their pocket pit bulls? If pit bulls only weighed 20 pounds instead of 50 pounds, they'd be less like to actually kill somebody when they get triggered.

    If pit bulls only weighed 20 pounds instead of 50 pounds, they’d be less like to actually kill somebody when they get triggered.

    Perhaps. Then again, the majority of killings are of small children left unattended by adults. Heck even a Pomeranian was responsible for killing a kid. A 20 lbs. dog can still do a lot of damage (and probably kill) small children.

  241. @Discard
    Bulldogs were bred for fighting, as were other breeds. Greyhounds are trained to race by chasing prey, but last week, as my greyhound approached a baby possum, I called him back and he obeyed. Nurture beat nature.

    All dogs are potential killers. Look at their mouths. Those fangs are not there to get a good grip on tennis balls. Training is largely about manipulating their instincts to our own purposes. Some dogs have more blood lust than others, but all are trainable towards a peaceable existence.

    Bulldogs were bred for fighting, as were other breeds.

    I hesitate to even mention another Japanese breed, but, hopefully no one here will be interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosa_%28dog%29

    The Japanese breed generally weighs between 80 and 135 pounds (36 and 61 kg), while the non-Japanese breeders have focused on dogs that weigh from 130 to 200 lb (60 to 90 kg)

    “Ugh” is all I can say.

    One thing to keep in mind about fighting dogs is that they were bred to fight OTHER DOGS, not humans. As such, their lineages tended to develop INTER-DOG aggression, not aggression toward humans. Indeed, good examples of such lineages usually had an excellent inhibition against biting humans, because that allowed handlers to be able to control their dogs safely even “in the heat of battle.”

    UKC’s description of American Pit Bull Terriers’ temperament is quite clear about their unsuitability for protection training due to abundance of friendliness to strangers as well as the high undesirability of any aggression toward people (which means such dogs are to be culled from the bloodline).

  242. @Stan d Mute

    By and large women, especially city women don’t understand “tough love” and that sometimes a little viciousness and cruelty is warranted in life. Civilization brings effeteness. That is something that can be said for farm-women types, they are generally not this way.
     
    This has been my observation as well. Having spent decades on a farm, I have had unpleasant experience with, shall we say, harsher aspects of dog ownership including having to "put down" a much loved pet after it was devastated by an automobile strike. My wife, a typical feminine female, would have sat and cried until the dog expired in agony. Likewise, she couldn't bring herself to discipline a dog in dog terms (i.e. Negative reward of a type applied by another dog) thus allowing behaviors in very large dogs that could easily kill her or a child.

    And all this goes to my general theory that women should never have a say in matters of state. They should have no voice (outside influence they wield domestically) in wars or law enforcement for example and generally speaking where we have given women that voice things have gone drastically wrong.

    I think this is a modern idea. I think it stems from a fear that harsh punishment will do permanent psychological damage to a child. Parents before a certain time didn’t have this fear. I’m not sure when it started but I suspect it is part of Freud’s legacy. It isn’t necessarily true. If punishment is followed by rapprochement after the child demonstrates that he understands that he did something that the parent didn’t like and is sorry then no long term harm will ensue. The same is true with dogs. You have to punish them harshly enough. When they show deference you let them know everything is ok. They learn. But I think everyone nowadays has been influenced by this fear that they are going to do permanent emotional damage so they are afraid punish sufficiently.

  243. Didn’t the Romans use to begin battles by releasing a bunch of ravenous kamikaze-like dogs upon their enemies to “soften ’em up” before the real attack? Any of them there hounds still around?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I read a claim that Roman dogs of war weighed 300 pounds.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Zeke, The Cane Corso is the Roman Mastiff War dog.
    , @Jack Hanson
    Cane Corsos.
  244. @Twinkie

    (Spuds MacKenzie commercial)
     
    Spuds Mackenzie was a female Bull Terrier - different breed from American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier.

    Spuds Mackenzie was a female Bull Terrier – different breed from American Pit Bull

    Whatever. Any dog with the word “bull” in its name because it was bred to fight bulls and/or other dogs is good enough for me. The traits that make them good at fighting bulls and in dogfighting is what makes them dangerous.

    Bull Terrier

    History and Origin

    When bullbaiting was outlawed in England in 1835 the “sport” of dog-fighting became popular and a smaller dog breed was needed, that could be more easily hidden under one’s coat at the arrival of the police.

    These dogs also had to be more agile and light as the dog fights usually lasted longer than bull fights.

    It got the reputation of a ‘canine gladiator’ which would fight to the death to please his master.

  245. @V Vega
    Didn't the Romans use to begin battles by releasing a bunch of ravenous kamikaze-like dogs upon their enemies to "soften 'em up" before the real attack? Any of them there hounds still around?

    I read a claim that Roman dogs of war weighed 300 pounds.

    • Replies: @V Vega
    Apparently, it was the Neapolitan Mastiff. The breed's photo is included in the following top ten shithead dog list, and the dog looks as one would expect of the guard dog of hell's gates. Pit bulls are noted also:


    http://listverse.com/2011/08/23/top-10-banned-dog-breeds/
  246. @Steve Sailer
    I read a claim that Roman dogs of war weighed 300 pounds.

    Apparently, it was the Neapolitan Mastiff. The breed’s photo is included in the following top ten shithead dog list, and the dog looks as one would expect of the guard dog of hell’s gates. Pit bulls are noted also:

    http://listverse.com/2011/08/23/top-10-banned-dog-breeds/

  247. @CommentGuy
    Perhaps you have not owned any pit bulls, but in identifying yourself as a "shelter volunteer" and putting forth the usual range of surreptitiously emotional arguments, you have outed yourself as a member of the Anti-Racist Dog Brigade.

    Surely we recognize that the greyhound is unusually well-equipped to run sprints. We also recognize that this is primarily a function of genetics when compared to other breeds. Yet, for some reason, the extremely outsized damage caused by pit bulls is "is a function of the way pit bulls tend to be raised and treated — not anything inherent to the breed." Now, you might retort with the previous nonsense about breed misidentification, and I will in turn request that you re-familiarize yourself with the breeding history of pit bulls and the nature of supply and demand economics as it pertains to dog fighting and gambling. What reason would there be for the overwhelming dominance of pit bulls in the dog fight game? Surely, not misidentification or confirmation bias. Or is this kinda like the wage gap, where the greedy corporations have yet to figure out that you can hire an entire staff of brilliant females for 77% of what their male counterparts would cost?

    One more obnoxious question: How many tattoos do you have?

    Since you asked: I have no tattoos. And while I’ve been fond of an individual “pit bull” now and then, I’ve got no emotional commitment (“surreptitious” or otherwise) to the bully breeds as such. (Personally, I prefer little fru-fru dogs like Yorkies and Maltese, even if they do tend to make people question my heterosexuality.)

    On the other hand, I do get a bit emotional about spurious arguments based on bad data.

    Dogsbite.org’s data are based on media reports. So they don’t actually show that pit bulls accounted for half of all fatal dog attacks. They show that dogs described as “pit bulls” in media reports accounted for half of all fatal dog attacks. How many were actually pit bulls is anyone’s guess.

    Dogsbite.org handwaves the problem by simply asserting a-priori that media reports identify dog breeds reliably and accurately. For reasons I’ve already discussed (and which should be obvious), I’m skeptical. And if the data set doesn’t correctly identify dogs by breed, then it’s useless.

  248. @V Vega
    Didn't the Romans use to begin battles by releasing a bunch of ravenous kamikaze-like dogs upon their enemies to "soften 'em up" before the real attack? Any of them there hounds still around?

    Zeke, The Cane Corso is the Roman Mastiff War dog.

    • Agree: Jack Hanson
  249. Speaking of war dogs, we would be remiss if we didn’t give a nod to Sergeant Stubby, highly decorated war dog of WWI. He saved many lives, performed in many battles with distinction, survived mustard gas and hand grenade attacks, and even captured a German soldier. He was highly decorated, and the draw for many military parades after the war. Why Steven Spielberg hasn’t made a biopic of this dog should confound the sensibilities of any dedicated american:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_Stubby

  250. @Threecranes
    I doubt that many pit bull owners take the trouble to "train" the dog at all.

    And (in response to Steve's query above) I doubt that many take the trouble to selectively "breed" the dog, or have intelligence and foresight to carry out any operation the results of which are not seen for generations.

    In my experience, which has included having my dog mauled on a public street by a neighbor's pit bull, the owners are drug dealers or society's discontents who want a guard dog to alert them to strangers and more especially the Law. Owning a pit bull is a badge or mark of membership for them.

    When my dog was attacked by an unrestrained pit bull my wife pepper sprayed it (which caused it to release its death grip on my dog's neck) simultaneously I grabbed it by its hind leg and began spinning it in giant circles like a kid does with a bucket filled with water (like the water, the pit bull's head stays in its place i.e. away from your hand). At the peak of a whirl, I let it go. It flew about thirty feet, landed in a pile, righted itself, oriented itself and turned to renew its attack. These things are relentless. Luckily, the owner with kids in tow had showed up by then and managed to subdue it. Ever since then I have carried my legally licensed concealed pistol when walking the dog. Next pit bull that attacks me, my wife or dog gets shot. This attack wasn't the first. The first time, my dog bolted in retreat and jerked my wife backward so that she fell hindmost into a ditch. The police are indifferent. There is no law against a dog killing another dog in my state. To settle, an aggrieved owner must pursue justice on their own initiative through civil courts. Only if the dog bites you do the police take action.

    Dogo Argentino are worse. Much larger, just as aggressive, and increasingly popular.

    There’s an unwatchable Youtube of a Dogo being walked by a woman. The Dogo attacks a smaller dog and locks onto its throat.

    The smaller dog is literally screaming….it is heartbreaking….while the stupid female owner of the Dogo pathetically and uselessly tries to get it to release.

    I agree with you. Carry a gun. SHOOT aggressive dogs. I love dogs but people who keep dogs for “protection” are like idiots who would keep a loaded gun around when the gun can fire itself.

    Had a dog locked onto my beloved pet (while she was still alive) I’d have verified a safe backstop, put the gun near the spine of the aggressive animal and blown some vertebrae downrange. It would have then been pure self-control not to use the carcass to beat the owner senseless.

  251. @Pontius
    When we adopted a Malamute puppy to replace our dearly departed Shepherd mix, our Lab/Border Collie female would sometimes pin him to the ground on his back and growl menacingly into his face until he yelped. We would be alarmed by this, until we realized it was just the natural way dogs train newcomers into the pecking order. He grew up to love her, and she him ( although she was coy about it!) and never crossed her in any way, even when he towered over her. He's a big guy now, 110lbs. He has a slight dominance issue, but generally is a food loving affection hound. I would NOT want to face off with him if he was angry though.

    I met a guy from Indiana who owned a Malamute. There were some coyotes calling out pets into the night and eating them. They called out his Malamute one night, and when he awoke the next day, his dog was on the porch covered in blood. Alarmed, he immediately began looking for injuries and found none. A wildlife officer told him he had found a dead coyote in the ditch about a mile from his place, and another so badly chewed up, he had to shoot him to end his suffering.

    A cousin had the same experience with a Malamute, a huge male that was substantially larger than 110lbs. Dog was good with the kids and cats, but killed wild animals for sport and ripped up a German Shepherd police dog living in the neighborhood.

    Personally, I’d never have an animal around me that I couldn’t handle bare-handed if it went full-insane. For dogs, this means nothing much above 70 lbs, and that’s labs. I’d never, ever have a pit, a rot or similar breed, regardless of size. People, especially women, who think they can handle large dogs are just playing the odds where drawing the short straw is catastrophic.

  252. @V Vega
    Didn't the Romans use to begin battles by releasing a bunch of ravenous kamikaze-like dogs upon their enemies to "soften 'em up" before the real attack? Any of them there hounds still around?

    Cane Corsos.

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