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Philosopher: "I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Mind?"
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From the NYT:

I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Mind?
I have a rational argument for my position. But I want to hear yours.

By Gary Gutting
Mr. Gutting is a emeritus professor of philosophy at Notre Dame.

Dec. 10, 2018

… The last step, then, in the defense of affirmation [sic] action in college admissions is an appeal to the moral demand to compensate for the damage done to by minorities by a long history of racial discrimination. Sotomayor elaborates: “Race matters in part because of the long history of racial minorities being denied access to the political process. … Race also matters because of persistent racial inequality in society — inequality that cannot be ignored and that has produced stark socioeconomic disparities …. Race matters because of the slights, the snickers, the silent judgments that reinforce that most crippling of thoughts: ‘I do not belong here.’”

What exactly is the logic here? We know the horrors of slavery, Jim Crow and lynchings, but how could they connect to the somewhat less than stellar academic records of middle-class black students who might not make the cut at Harvard? The connection would have to lie, as Sotomayor suggests, in the present-day residues, the stubborn structural effects of centuries of mistreatment, gradually diminishing but still an undeserved burden.

Are the burdens of centuries of mistreatment gradually diminishing? That would seem likely in terms of straightforward common sense, but instead the respectable media seems to give us the impression that the Burdens of History are increasing as time passes: e.g., there is absolutely no MoveOn.org for slavery/Jim Crow.

For example, Emmett Till is mentioned far more often in the New York Times in this decade than two decades ago. Emmett Till was mentioned twice in the NYT in 1990 and 72 times in 2017.

In a 2003 opinion, Sandra Day O’Connor implied that she only thought this rationale would be reasonable until 2028. Of course, we are now 60% of the way there, and virtually nothing has changed, so we don’t hear about the temporary nature anymore.

The burden shows up in both economic and social terms. The wealth (total value of home, savings, investments, etc.) of middle-class white families is about four times that of middle-class black families. This gives white families a decided edge in their ability to survive financial setbacks and resources to provide a better education for their children. Similarly, due to restrictive real estate practices, wealthier blacks still often live in poorer neighborhoods than comparable whites do, reducing educational and cultural opportunities. There are also psychological effects: Black children live in a world where their very appearance presents them as “others,” often objects of either uneasy suspicion or patronizing sympathy.

So it’s hard to deny that blacks as a whole face a distinctive set of disadvantages that are primarily due to the still effective legacy of slavery.

But, by Professor Gutting’s logic, why should recent immigrant groups also get racial/ethnic preferences in United State, when their ancestors weren’t burdened by the sins of American history? Why does getting off a plane from Buenos Aires make you eligible for low interest SBA minority development loans and government contracting breaks in the USA?

Some institutions don’t offer affirmative action to Hispanics from Buenos Aires. I vaguely recall that some college, Princeton?, didn’t give a boost up to Cubans. But most of affirmative action doesn’t worry about fine distinctions like this. Either you are in or you are not in. (This by the way is why Elizabeth Warren’s claim to be Diverse is such a beartrap for her: if anybody ought to know how the affirmative action system ought to work it’s a Harvard Law professor who is now a Senator and wants to be President. But she seems opportunistic and clueless, so some of her staff is fleeing, perhaps because they foresee a future of endless discussions over who is and who isn’t eligible for Diversity benefits.)

A reasonable compromise based on this logic might be to preserve affirmative action for the historic victim groups of American history — blacks descended from American slaves (e.g., Michelle Obama, but not Barack Obama) and for American Indians; but junk preferences for groups largely descended from recent immigrants.

Of course, virtually nobody favors this. One reason is because the Supreme Court has over the years created the rationale that affirmative action is reparations to blacks, it’s instead for the benefit of whites: they prosper from Vitamin D!

 
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  1. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Vitamin D or a weight that makes us stronger.

  2. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    When he was professor, why didn’t he step down and give his job to a Negro?

    • LOL: bomag
  3. It doesn’t work.

    That said, the only worthwhile argument in favor of Affirmative Action is that it is a necessary evil to keep a fragile social peace – it need not be remedial in the sense that it has not and will never close the achievement gaps which it was proposed to do, but the beneficiaries are now too numerous and powerful and the costs of outlawing it so heavy that it may be superior to the alternative.

  4. Hail says: • Website

    a future of endless discussions over who is and who isn’t eligible for Diversity benefits

    A recent court case involved a man who did a 23andMe, found 4% Subsaharan ancestry, and sued for the right to minority business loans.

    Law requires precise definitions: Yes or no; get the loan, or don’t. The Supreme Court will, I presume, have to rule on what the genetic cutoff for racial benefits is to be. Stop these 4%-Subsaharan types fraudulently absconding with the best Diversity benefits.

    What will the racial cutoff-line be? I am thinking it could be:

    20.0% Subsaharan and up, get race benefits; no race benefits at 19.9% and below.

  5. Glenn Loury recently had thoughts about AA over at bloggingheads.tv. Worth your while: https://bloggingheads.tv/videos/54292?in=9:45

    • Replies: @SMK
  6. A reasonable compromise based on this logic might be to preserve affirmative action for the historic victim groups of American history — blacks descended from American slaves (e.g., Michelle Obama, but not Barack Obama) and for American Indians; but junk preferences for groups largely descended from recent immigrants.

    NO.

    a) Anyone who’s paid any attention to politics over the last few decades would have to be damn near retarded to not know by now that the people we are arguing with on this DO NOT COMPROMISE. A compromise means, to them, a lull in the battle for re-loading.

    b) I don’t think it’s reasonable at all for any self-respecting conservative to support a policy of deliberate mandated discrimination in admissions, hiring, and advancement in careers against white men, as has been going on since the 1970’s.

    NO!

  7. istevefan says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Are you the same Dave Pinsen who posts on Seeking Alpha? If so, how are you able to conduct business there if you post somewhat controversial things out in the open? I’ve read the comments of people on Seeking Alpha and they don’t seem like Trump supporters or Sailer readers to me. Does this affect your bottom line at all?

    • Replies: @IHTG
    , @snorlax
    , @Dave Pinsen
    , @Lot
  8. IHTG says:
    @istevefan

    The identity of Seeking Alpha’s CEO may be relevant here

  9. After that one, I’ve got to at least give you credit in what you wrote at the end, similarly to your writing on the latest post(s?) about Chief Spreading Bull, of the Nations of the Upper Massachusetts. I didn’t get a chance to comment under that or those ones.

    Yes, I agree that Chief Warren makem big mistake by taking that DNA test (even though she was slick enough to not announce anything until she got her 1/128 to 1/1064 result, whatever it was). It does indeed open up a can of worms if that result is supposed to back up any boxes she checked regarding race/ethnicity on any applications, etc. Even with the bit about tribal membership aside, if that small amount is all it takes to check that box, then all bets are off. Colleges will become regular tribal jamborees, with struggle sessions instead of sweat lodges.

    The big Chiefs no likem. Big Chiefs on warpath, they will go. [/Yoda of the Souix]

  10. Whiskey says: • Website

    I wonder how I as a White man would fare if Mexico annexed California and granted all citizenship. It would be beneficial for White people if nations has to compete for their loyalty and taxes rather than the reverse.

  11. Tiny Duck says:

    white girls benefit from affirmative action by having easy access to Black Men who can satisfy their physical needs in a way white boys just cannot provide

    Workout AA whites girls might never know the joy of ecstasy and the privilege of strong children

  12. anonymous[140] • Disclaimer says:

    “For example, Emmett Till is mentioned far more often in the New York Times in this decade than two decades ago. Emmett Till was mentioned twice in the NYT in 1990 and 72 times in 2017.”

    Interesting point. I recall the movie Mississippi Burning from around 86 (I believe). That was about 20 years after the events and it seemed like 100. Now it’s like it’s supposed to be like yesterday.

    Wasn’t Spike Lee being considered a serious director supposed to absolve us?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  13. El Dato says:

    – Let Asian/Latino workgroups decide the administrative points on how to affirmatively action Blacks.
    – Let Asian/Blacks workgroups decide the administrative points on how to affirmatively action Latinos.
    – Let Black/Latino workgroups decide the administrative points on how to affirmatively action Asians.
    – Let Israeli workgroups decide the administrative points on how to affirmatively action Jews.
    – Whites automatically get affirmatively actioned depending on the population-weighted affirmative action bonuses that transpired above, based on their primary residence.
    – If the affirmative action payout reaches more than 100% of available resources, you have to tap the card with the highest postmodern philosophy score and make magic dirt for two rounds.

  14. El Dato says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Diversity isn’t a magic pill that makes American society instantly stronger—it’s more like exercise. Just as lifting weights strengthens muscles, learning to deal with people who are obviously different strengthens the core American value of individualism.

    I understand that core diversity zones exhibit individualism to a degree that normal sad undividual americans decide to move elsewhere.

  15. Flip says:

    Certainly no descendants of immigrants should get affirmative action, which would restrict it to American slave descendants and American Indians. They are the only ones who didn’t choose to come here.

  16. notanon says:

    the only long-term effective form of affirmative action would be to tell the truth about genetics and encourage selective breeding.

  17. newrouter says:

    “blacks descended from American slaves (e.g., Michelle Obama, but not Barack Obama) and for American Indians; ”

    No. Go for gold get rid of it all. If the negros squawk, point out the trillions of dollars sent their way since 1965 and it hasn’t made a damn difference to their place in this society.

  18. J.Ross says: • Website

    Amy Wax devoted one of her books to this (tldr, making the victim whole is not a genie-wish and may not even be possible) so it’s kind of remarkable that a person claiming to be an academic familiar with philosophy whips out a cheap advertising trick (Hello there! Can I talk to you for a minute, in print?) instead of responding to Wax.

  19. @Hail

    Cutoff-line will be 6% African , evenNorth-Africans will qualify for diversity benefits.

  20. Anon[395] • Disclaimer says:

    The left will twist itself into knots claiming that immigrants and descendants are entitled to AA due to being victims of Western colonialism.

    It would be a small miracle for the GOP to regain the House and restructure affirmative action to be income-based, rather than race-based. Abolishment altogether would touch off a judical rebellion, if not a literal rebellion.

    The reality is that conservatives need their own country.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  21. J.Ross says: • Website

    So it’s hard to deny that whites as a whole face a distinctive set of disadvantages, threats, costs, losses, and limitations that are primarily due to the still effective legacy* of black criminality.
    Welp, Day of the Rope it is. I’m sure there are counter-feeling but I’m not sure there are counter-arguments.

    *The still effective legacy? Never mind the missing hyphen. How would it be a legacy if it had lost all effect? Is he in high school?

  22. If you believe that “government is an armed minority, occupying territory and taxing the people to reward its supporters,” as I do, then Affirmative Action is merely a ruse for the ruling class to justify rewarding supporters of the Democratic Party.

  23. Anon[215] • Disclaimer says:

    Are the burdens of centuries of mistreatment gradually diminishing?

    Whatever burdens may remain are in places like “wealth accumulation” and the like, and the research there is tendentious and confirmation biasy. If I were to construct a research protocol I’d want a control group of poor whites, and other races, to show how unimportant your “inheritance” is to the success of a bright kid, and how quickly family fortunes dissipate. Maybe if you can blame self-destructive black “culture” on slavery, that could be a contributor.

    But there is no way that “centuries of mistreatment” are lowering IQ in the present day. And once you establish the IQ gap, it is sufficient to explain all that wealth gaps and culture are trying to explain. There is no more gap left for these factors to explain.

    Nicholas Comfort thinks that real-soon-now, upcoming discoveries will explain the slavery-to-present connection: “post-transcriptional modification, epigenetics, microbiomics, and systems biology,” so it seems like the excuses will never run out. Epigenetics seems in particular to be the go-to explanation for the more informed crowd, who know that the cognitive gaps are real.

    As usual, this is never spelled out in any detail, but the idea seems to be that the slave ancestor was super stressed out (and I think most poor white people in the mid-1800s were super stressed out too, life was hard), and this stress caused some hormone or something to be excreted into their system and then magic happened and IQ fell, and the homone excreter was passed on to kids epigenetically, voila!, so on down the line.

    Real science would then ask, let’s assume that epigentics could do that, and then what are the candidate stressor substances, can they cause a stable IQ drop, are they present in blacks descended from slaves more than in poor whites, are they present in blacks Africa and elsewhere, and so on. I think the answer is that it’s a big just-so story, and in particular, there is no way any candidate substance could lower IQ, permanently, and to a stable level, unless lead or mercury are being epigenetically and alchemically created, which is a discovoery worth a Nobel Prize, I’d think, nuclear transmutation is real!

    • Replies: @Seamus
    , @peterike
  24. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Alec Leamas

    Ah, the South African position. “This is dangerous and completely wrong but we just don’t have a choice.”

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  25. He concludes with “I think I’ve made a strong case for affirmative action” but I never actually saw him make any case whatsoever. His essay also treats college admissions as a terminal goal, as if increasing black representation at universities is itself sufficient to solve anything.

  26. Luke Lea says:

    Off topic, but has anyone noticed that Comey lately is beginning to look like Ramzpaul?

    https://goo.gl/ZnvLZV

  27. bomag says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    it’s more like exercise

    It’s more like a drug: a little bit makes you high; after awhile you notice nausea; and eventually you get to where we are today — head in the toilet.

  28. snorlax says:
    @istevefan

    Looks like SΑ still adheres to the old* system (formerly insisted on by the left, following “McCarthyism”) where employees’ politics were none of the employer’s business.

    *Feels like an eternity ago, but it still prevailed as late as 2012 or so.

  29. @Anon

    Absolutely. White supporters of AA invariably see themselves as the elite who have godlike insight into the workings of society and who also are in the intellectual 1% whose accomplishments are irrefutably based on merit. It’s a form of benevolent supremacism which endows the superior with the right to do with the rest of us as they see fit: a little unfairness to one group then cancelled out by a little unfairness to another now. Of course tests of moral reasoning or good judgment aren’t required of our current crop of geniuses. So now we have to explain why a society shouldn’t replace capable employees/leaders/teachers with less capable or incapable ones.

    • Replies: @istevefan
  30. bomag says:
    @Alec Leamas

    Agree here, and that a lot of the welfare state is the buying of social peace.

    A telling line was, “… the still effective legacy of slavery.” This older professor danced around the notion that maybe AA doesn’t really work, or isn’t really needed to get the same results; but he ends by spouting the usual PC.

  31. @Hail

    Hail, When my wife was offered contracts with the University at Buffalo they said she qualified because she was a woman business owner and she had a name that was on their list of Hispanic names, even though her lineage was Italian. Whatever makes them happy I guess.

    • Replies: @Hail
  32. Flip says:
    @Hail

    I wonder if we get race panels to classify people by race like they had in South Africa.

    • Replies: @Hail
  33. Coag says:

    His mind will be changed and he’ll wake up from his obscurantist fog once he accepts modern science and recognizes that persistent racial socioeconomic inequalities are substantially due to biological bases for racial differences in intelligence and behavior.

    • LOL: Lowe
  34. Ibound1 says:
    @Hail

    His exact quote: “I’m a certified black man.”

    The courts have zero authority to set a percentage limit. That’s a legislative decision. They can only say he is or he isn’t under the law and how in the world will they decide that? By how he looks?

    Hopefully this will wreck the whole system.

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @bomag
    , @Seamus
  35. @Alec Leamas

    Look at Malaysia.
    Attempts to do away with affirmative action benefits for Malays can cause riots.

    Interesting when the majority of the population is eligible for AA

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  36. His entire argument is based on unacknowledged assumptions that blacks are equal to whites in native ability, have the same Faustian drive to think and create and are motivated by the same things that move whites to action.

    We can assume that, as mammals and primates, blacks and whites share similar instinctual appetites such as sex and hunger and that they are capable of language as well as experiencing emotional feelings such as grief and joy. Beyond that nothing is to be taken for granted.

    We know that no African tribe developed a written language. None developed a sophisticated number system. African culture seems to have been expressed in singing and dancing, just as it is today. Twerking is not new. We have seen it before in vintage film footage of primitive African tribal dancing.

    He simply assumes away everything that is in contention. Democrats always do this. They won’t soil their hands (or minds) with the nuts and bolts of evolution.

    The professor is ignorant of the incredible amount of stored intelligence that has accumulated in our modern machine age technology.

    Recently someone posted a reference to a German book about ball bearings. I ordered it through Amazon. It tells one more than they ever wanted to know about ball bearings. But I was impressed by the vast amount of research and experimentation that has gone into the subject. And by how critical ball bearings are to not only every machine in your house, but to the giant forges, presses and lathes of industry. True behemoths that spin on precision bearings that are laser interferometer ground to accuracy of fractions of a micron.

    The gulf separating Africans from Germans is vast. It wasn’t caused by slavery or redlining or job discrimination. And for sure, it won’t be bridged by programs that attempt to compensate or make up the lack of intellectual progress by blacks simply by moving them around or putting more books in their libraries.

  37. @Flip

    Not entirely correct.

    My Native American ancestors chose to come to a land now known as North America, and some even supported the Americans in the Revolution, but they did not have much say in living in a white dominated society.

    Most of my white ancestors came here willingly, but some did not. All of my white Ancestors were on the American side in the Revolution, except for one British soldier who deserted after embezzlement of His Majesty’s Army’s funds.

    The earliest of the Liberal family (not my real name of course) deserted from the Royal Navy after having been impressed into service. His descendant, and my ancestor, was an officer in the Boston Minutemen, fought in the very earliest battles. So the Liberal family did not choose to come to North America, but by God we chose to be part of the United States.

  38. kiismerhe says:

    “I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Mind?”

    Affirmative Action is based on a lie. Blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites and yellows and no regulation is going to change that. To enforce it you have to make up more and more lies and censure more and more opinions. It is not going to work for much longer.

  39. Anon[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @newrouter

    Blacks respond by simply demanding more, and if they don’t turn out, the Dems don’t win elections.

    YT will be paying until the golden goose is finally killed, and that may not be in the offing anytime soon.

    Liberals have been good at forcing conservative whites to pay the Black Danegeld, we must find a way of reversing that.

    The GOP has a clear interest in raging against A/A, but not doing anything about it. A/A probably accounts for a sizeable portion of the white/asian young males that vote GOP, and a sizeable portion of the UMC parents angry their kid is locked out of the state flagship.

    A triangulating path would be to reduce international students, rather than A/A. That would also reduce the number of OPT and H-1B.

    “American Students First”

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    , @Jack D
  40. Dr. X says:

    Prof. Gutting is not a philosopher, he’s a sophist in the classical sense — the type of guy Socrates did intellectual battle with, and the type of guy who brought Socrates before the Assembly to stand trial on capital charges of “disbelieving in the gods” and “corrupting the youth.”

    What Prof. Gutting is offering here is little more than cheap ethnic equalitarianism, not philosophy. If he had read Aristotle seriously, he would understand that Nature creates fundamental, hierarchical distinctions among men. The task of political society is to create a hierarchical structure in which the “best natured men” rule, not to artificially induce equality between superiors and inferiors. As Aristotle summed it up, “Justice is equality for equals, and inequality for unequals.”

    The trick is how to accomplish that. Aristotle believed that some people were naturally suited to be slaves, and others naturally suited to be masters. He admitted, though, that unjust political societies sometimes created slavery “by convention,” i.e., forced people to be slaves by law when in fact they were not “slaves by nature.”

    Prof. Gutting utterly fails to take into account Aristotle’s very nuanced argument on political rule. Applying an Aristotelian analysis to the situation of the contemporary Negro, we may rephrase the question as follows: “Is the inferior social and economic position of the Negro vis-a-vis the white the result of political and social convention (in which case it would be utterly unjust) or the result of ineradicable differences created by Nature itself?”

    Gutting assumes that it is merely political convention. But he fails to take into account the modern science of genetics, and fails to acknowledge the anecdotal evidence that African societies, which never experienced white slaveholding or Jim Crow, are inferior to white societies in innumerable ways.

    A truly Socratic philosopher would at least argue the latter position as the antithesis of the former position in an effort to arrive at the truth dialectically.

    But Gutting doesn’t bother — he merely accepts the thesis that racial differences are caused by conventional discrimination (which no longer exists), and offers a redistributionist punishment-for-the-sins-of-the-father on whites as the “solution.”

    Any serious and honest thinker must necessarily analyze racial differences, and policies of racial “discrimination,” as a chicken-or-egg question, viz: does the policy of “discrimination” exist because the subject was actually inferior (and thus the policy was not really “discriminatory,” but justly suited to the subject’s nature), or, conversely, was the policy of “discrimination” an artificial and conventional policy, entirely divorced from the nature of the subject in question, and nothing more than a mere power play?

    Q.E.D…

    • Replies: @Jack D
  41. Buck says:

    I’m for a geocentric model of the universe. Change my mind or I burn you at the stake for heresy.

    His whole system of belief is based on the fantasy of a less than wise Latina.

    “The connection would have to lie, as Sotomayor suggests, in the present-day residues, the stubborn structural effects of centuries of mistreatment, gradually diminishing but still an undeserved burden.”

    Or we could go with, say, that the groups requiring Affirmative Action are less intelligent on average.

  42. @ThreeCranes

    His entire argument is based on unacknowledged assumptions that blacks are equal to whites in native ability, have the same Faustian drive to think and create and are motivated by the same things that move whites to action.

    I don’t know that it’s an argument anymore so much as a dare.

    “My position is entirely dependent upon this easily refuted but socially unacceptable fact. Your choices are to tacitly accept this falsehood as a premise in this discussion dooming your counter to failure, or take issue with the falsehood and thereby identify yourself as an unperson. Choose wisely.”

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Lowe
  43. Rosie says:

    A few thoughts:

    (1) If affirmative action is intended to compensate, why do disproportionately young, middle-class Whites have to shoulder the burden rather than established elite Whites? We all know the answer, and it should be totally unsatisfactory to a philosophy professor.

    (2) There is a causation problem. The weight of the evidence shows that black failure is caused by black shortcomings, not White malfeasance.

    (3) If being the “other” is so bad, why shouldn’t Whites resist becoming a minority in White homelands, which obviously exist, otherwise blacks wouldn’t feel “otherized.”

    (4) When is he going to demand Asian or Jewish quotas? Never, I suppose.

  44. Rosie says:
    @Alec Leamas

    I don’t know that it’s an argument anymore so much as a dare.

    “My position is entirely dependent upon this easily refuted but socially unacceptable fact. Your choices are to tacitly accept this falsehood as a premise in this discussion dooming your counter to failure, or take issue with the falsehood and thereby identify yourself as an unperson. Choose wisely.”

    Ouch! Truth hurts.

  45. @newrouter

    AGREED!

    … and how about my comment #6 (currently) getting de-whimmed?

  46. Hail says: • Website
    @Ibound1

    They [courts] can only say he is or he isn’t under the law and how in the world will they decide that? By how he looks?

    If the Supreme Court could discover a previously undetected clause in the U.S. Constitution mandating race benefits (to promote constitutionally demanded Diversity), why couldn’t it discover the framers’ intended definition of the preferred races?

    Maybe a conservative faction on the Supreme Court would cite the spirit of the federal-level 3/5ths compromise, updated and repurposed for the 21st century, and declare the cutoff for receiving race benefits is to be 60.0% Subsaharan and up. A left-leaning faction would cite the big 23andme data study by Bryc, et. al. (2015), whose Figure 4 shows that individuals with 28%+ Subsaharan tend to identify as African American, and set the race benefit cutoff correspondingly to 28.0% Subsaharan and up.

    The courts have zero authority to set a percentage limit. That’s a legislative decision.

    Am I wrong that the legislative precedents for this are all at the state level?

    A common state-level definition of Black in the South was 1/16th [6.25%], but afaik there has never been a federal definition of Black. Might the Supreme Court cite old state laws and establish the federal race-benefit cutoff at 6.25% and up?

  47. istevefan says:

    Sometime object of this blog, Tim Wise, is advocating to get a Columbia U. student expelled.

    https://twitter.com/timjacobwise/status/1072191834057773056

    The kid seems pretty smart. He has already written a book on physics that is on sale at Amazon.

  48. Hail says: • Website
    @Flip

    The Elizabeth Warren affair was a race-panel-by-media.

    Will Ocasio-Cortez release her genetic test showing her % Jewish ancestry [#16] before running for Senate in the 2020s?

  49. Anon[395] • Disclaimer says:

    Does anyone envision the “gender pay gap” disappearing off the political radar screen?

    If you can’t mollify white women, how exactly is anyone else going to accept loss of the spoils system?

    For all of the effort Trump tries to claim about reducing black unemployment rates, the rate is currently 5.9%. Full employment is generally considered to be at 5%, so blacks are still in a recession.

    Will the racial rates of unemployment converge anytime soon, or will the dispairty reach a tolerable level?

    Blacks love to claim that slavery built America, but notice that they never pursue any kind of separatism.

  50. Hail says: • Website
    @Buffalo Joe

    qualified because she was a woman business owner and she had a name that was on their list of Hispanic names, even though her lineage was Italian

    These are exactly the kinds of racial oversights that can be eliminated in the new, genetic-testing-enabled world of scientifically applied race benefits.

  51. istevefan says:
    @miss marple

    It’s a form of benevolent supremacism which endows the superior with the right to do with the rest of us as they see fit:

    In a related way this is similar to white organizations that sponsor refugees. They get to virtual signal by bringing in poor refugees. But then they leave the care of the wretched refuse up to John Q. Public without regards to Mr. Public’s desire to help or not.

    • Agree: Autochthon
  52. @newrouter

    They did not have “trillions” of dollars “sent their way.” That’s utterly stupid.

    • Replies: @newrouter
    , @newrouter
  53. @istevefan

    Huh. I hope he’s never eaten peanut butter, otherwise he’d be a giant hypocrite.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  54. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @istevefan

    Yes.

    Seeking Alpha authors and readers have diverse political views, but the editors prefer authors keep politics to a minimum in their articles.

    I’m not aware of any incidence of them raising an issue about authors’ views expressed elsewhere though.

  55. Anon[352] • Disclaimer says:

    These type of propositions by coddled pseudo-academics (pesudo in the sense that what they state that the are represnenting , ie: “rationalism”, and what they actually present are two different things – an inexcusable offense for an academic) are exhausting because they are so easily answered and buried. To wit:

    The last step, then, in the defense of affirmation [sic] action in college admissions is an appeal to the moral demand

    Liberals have spent 5 centuries arguing against objective morality, only to assert an objective and universal morality later? Please. Philosophical-proof fail.

    to compensate for the damage done to by minorities by a long history of racial discrimination.

    What living minorities were damaged by racial discrimination that precedes their lifetime? If we are individuals, then there is no “group (intergenerational) damage” and if we are not then White people have interests that need to be addressed as such. Philosophical-proof fail.

    If we are talking morality, lack of a universal application of such a rule is a de facto sign that you are being immoral. Moreover, is that a parallel type of damage done to the Irish, or to the individual families whose men were conscripted and killed in wars? Where do the reparations end, and why (under what universal moral guideline)? Where can we conduct a peer review of this stated guideline? Are those present day minorities actually damaged, or are they better off because they are here and not in Africa where they would be if the slave industry had not existed?

    Sotomayor elaborates: “Race matters in part because of the long history of racial minorities being denied access to the political process. …

    An assertion without “rational” support. This logic reads as propaganda because it is too simplistic. It omits all additional aspects of what he is referencing, as well as a discussion of the ramifications of assuming that individuals can be held to be responsible for and /or entitled to political action based on the history of groups of people that are not alive anymore (let alone of their race).

    Race also matters because of persistent racial inequality in society

    There is nothing in the constitution that mandates equality of outcome. So, what is his point?

    — inequality that cannot be ignored and that has produced stark socioeconomic disparities ….

    So he’s an activist with a political opinion, not someone arguing rational logic.

    Race matters because of the slights, the snickers, the silent judgments that reinforce that most crippling of thoughts: ‘I do not belong here.’”

    Invented narrative does not suffice as support of a supposed “rational” argument.

    What exactly is the logic here? We know the horrors of slavery, Jim Crow and lynchings,

    When someone states “we all know” in place of a discussion, know that you are being taken for a ride.

    Slavery was unfortunate but they would not be here without it and other people were also enslaved. If we could reverse it, most white people would. Would most American-Black people if it meant that they would currently be in Africa?

    It is extremely debatable if Jim Crowe was horrible and not net beneficial to everyone. We’d have to run the nuumbers. Stating that Jim Crowe produced “horrors” on the whole is pure propaganda.

    Lynchings were generally in response to post civil war rapes and murders of white women (and sometimes their families) by freed slaves, whom the carpet bagger officials in the South would not properly prosecute. Lynchings were used as deterrents of further rape, which generally didn’t work.

    but how could they connect to the somewhat less than stellar academic records of middle-class black students who might not make the cut at Harvard? The connection would have to lie, as Sotomayor suggests, in the present-day residues, the stubborn structural effects of centuries of mistreatment, gradually diminishing but still an undeserved burden.

    Pure narrative. Invented sociology, developmental science, and psychology for the purpose of political rent and racial agitation. There isn’t a rational argument to be found in the vicinity of this article of recycled tropes.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  56. The solution is for all white people to become enslaved to black people. Go back and read Lincoln’s 2nd inaugural. You will not be optimistic about the future, and neither was he.

    Absent white enslavement, there is a slow degradation in culture that the black people won’t notice until the electricity goes out, or a conflict of some sort that results in some kind of division of the races as individuals see fit.

    Degradation in culture seems most likely, though that could change in a hurry if a real crisis came up.

  57. newrouter says:

    A simple question: Since 1965 the USA has directed trillions of dollars to the Negro community: where’s the Negro Einstein, Fermi, Tesla et al?

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @Reg Cæsar
  58. newrouter says:
    @obwandiyag

    Stop paying EBT for a year and get back to me.

  59. Anon[352] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    Yeshiva educated Tim Wise has been openly chomping at the bit for a race war for a long time now. His visceral racial hatred is out in the open for all to see on a regular basis.

    • Replies: @Kaganovitch
  60. Richard S says:

    I know this isn’t an original point, but the fact that Michelle Obama’s ancestors were brought to America against their will has actually proved beneficial (in a global sense) for the descendants of those transported.

    Citizenship of an industrial, first world democracy with the rule of law, running water, food surpluses, the world’s best medical and educational infrastructures etc etc is damn sight better than life in their ethno-racial homelands, no?

    • Replies: @anon
  61. J.Ross says: • Website
    @istevefan

    Yeah, there’s no white men forced out of college without thoughtcrime, there’s no white men in trades, there’s no cash economy, there’s no life outside coastal urban Starbucks franchises, and there’s no income without a degree in a fake humanities subject.
    But notice his phrasing. “Wreck” normally means “murder” or “badly beat” and has for years. Notice the learned professor’s epithet for the human being he is talking about. Notice Wise doesn’t say “wreck his career” or “wreck his chances,” Wise specifies wrecking him. Could anyone tweet this under their own name about Tim Wise without police attention? Some people are just above the law.

    • Replies: @Lowe
    , @Mr McKenna
  62. bomag says:
    @Ibound1

    The courts have zero authority to set a percentage limit. That’s a legislative decision.

    They’ll get faced with some administrative interpretations of various statutes and start slicing the baby.

  63. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Alec Leamas

    In ten years there will be utterly serious and properly credentialled fiftycenters away from keyboard who will reattempt the idea that the European Renaissance was actually just the spread of Chinese inventions. Only this time people who question it will be fired or expelled.

  64. newrouter says:
    @obwandiyag

    12/31/1965 $320,904,110,042.04

    http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdhisto4.htm

    >How much is the U.S. national debt in 2017? As of this writing, the U.S. national debt in 2017 is $19.9 trillion <

    https://www.lombardiletter.com/how-much-is-the-u-s-national-debt/7508/

  65. @Flip

    No. American slave diasporians are not in danger of having their culture or their gene lines erased. In fact, it appears that not only their blood but their culture “carries” through race mixing, so they get double benefit through association with the American peoples. Many, if not most, Indians are whiter than I, so it is not clear how they are suffering from inheritance of native blood. Tribal members generally have dual citizenship, or American citizenship plus, which is compensation enough, if not more than enough. Just being a good person, or the descendant of folks who rode hard and got rode hard in return seven score or more years ago is not sufficient for AA.

  66. snorlax says:
    @ThreeCranes

    We know that no African tribe developed a written language. None developed a sophisticated number system.

    No Bantu tribe; the Ethiopians did.

    • Replies: @EH
    , @ThreeCranes
  67. gregor says:
    @Alec Leamas

    That’s the best argument I can come up with, that it’s more or less a form a riot insurance. You could of course just do straight welfare, but affirmative action arguably would give a greater boost to the morale of the low-performing group (even if it’s less efficient). As a counter-argument, I would note that the efficiency costs are significant. It’s insanity to do it for medical schools, for example. And it has been a disaster for the public sector. The right tends to be dismissive of government and assume the public sector is inherently incompetent, but in fact I suspect with proper civil service standards things would be reasonably well-run. I’m actually surprised that liberals haven’t figured out that turning the public sector into a big jobs program for blacks undermines their quest to expand the role of the state.

  68. Hail says: • Website
    @newrouter

    point out the trillions of dollars sent their way since 1965

    All things are subject to tradeoffs. In this case, we traded-off a moon base or two.

  69. L Woods says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    This is, I will grant, a slightly less retarded argument.

  70. This condescending douche-nozzle parenthetically defines “wealth” as if it were an erudite concept, technical jargon, or a term of art, telling the reader all he needs to know about the author.

  71. Mr. Anon says:

    I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Mind?

    By Gary Gutting

    No, but we can cheer as your sons get squeezed out of opportunities in life and laugh when your AA doctor screws up your blood pressure meds.

    You’re welcome.

    • Agree: densa
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  72. Anon[334] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Reparations would be a mistake because:

    — We all know the problem with blacks isn’t money. Cut each one a check for $10,000 or $10 million, and two generations later you’re back where you started (and it’s whitey’s fault, for reasons).

    — We all know the problem with blacks is never going to get any better, short of massive admixture.

    — Thus, demands for further reparations would erupt every two or three generations in perpetuity, and those times there would be a precedent. Descendants of the original reparationees will say, “We weren’t around, they didn’t represent us, and it wasn’t done right and didn’t work. We need a redo.”

    It’s a form of guerrilla warfare, and the guerillas always win. You know how China and Korea say Japan never apologized nor took responsibility for its wartime activities? There’s an entire Wikipedia page of the dozens of apologies, and it’s incomplete. The recipients of the gift that keeps on giving will never give it up.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Mr McKenna
  73. Anon[405] • Disclaimer says:

    The wealth study he cites is a methodological disaster, but other academics are afraid to point that out.

    One clue is the “whites have 4 times the wealth” statement. This is not the writer: it’s a quote from the researchers. But in statistics you don’t say x times y in a case where the values can be negative as well as positive.

    If I have $10 and you are in debt for $1, how many times richer am I than you? There’s no meaningful answer.

    Even without negative numbers, “times” is a squishy way to express stuff liked this. If I have $10,000 and you have $100 is the same “times” as $100 to $1.

  74. @newrouter

    That’s because so-called affirmative action, like all welfare, is just feeding feral cats without spaying and neautering them: it only exacerbates the trouble.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  75. The idea that Jim Crow explains for blacks’ relative poverty is nonsense.

    Not getting to live among white Americans, not getting to vote in American elections, not getting FHA home loans, having no access to white Americans’ schools, companies and clubs: these “disadvantages” applied equally to Belgians and Norwegians (those who remained back in Europe that is). And yet Belgium and Norway have done fine.

    If anything, blacks had an advantage over the Norwegians because blacks could more easily trade with a rich country (the USA) for many years when Sweden (Norway’s only land neighbor) wasn’t all that prosperous.

    Of course, if white America didn’t just keep the blacks apart but actively plundered them, then there’d be a case to be made. And I know there are isolated examples of that (which some people love to exaggerate). But by and large the USA has always been a sparsely populated country with lots of room available for any group that wanted to make a go of it.

  76. @Alec Leamas

    There is only one long term solution: separate nations for separate races.

  77. Sean says:

    Of course, virtually nobody favors this. One reason is because the Supreme Court has over the years created the rationale that affirmative action is [not?] reparations to blacks, it’s instead for the benefit of whites: they prosper from Vitamin D!

    https://nypost.com/2017/08/04/minorities-make-up-majority-of-harvards-incoming-class/

    Minorities make up the majority of Harvard’s Class of 2021 — for the first time in the school’s 380-year history, according to reports.

    The Ivy League school’s incoming freshman class is comprised of 50.8 percent of minorities — including African-Americans, Hispanics or Latinos, Asian-Americans, Native Americans or Pacific Islanders – compared to 47.3 percent last year, the Boston Globe reported

    What is happening in effect targets white gentiles, especially the ablest non-elite white gentiles. There is currently extreme reluctance about allowing Asians their meritocratic due because that would be turning up the heat under white gentiles too fast, and the frog might jump out of the pot.

    If you look at the Supreme Court, where Catholics once played a similar role to Asians in the Ivy League, they inexorably increased until the WASP presence completely faded away. My feeling is that an analogous process will begin to happen with high end colleges, and the ablest non elite white gentiles will be slowly but surely eliminated.

  78. Lot says:
    @istevefan

    The median successful Seeking Alpha author is a high IQ Ron Paul voter. If they culled authors with “problematic” views, half the site would be gone.

    Peter Brimelow’s running VDare, which is probably to the right of Dave overall, did not seem to impact his continued financial journalism career.

  79. @notanon

    In order to do that, control of the media must be forced away from (((them))). They control everything. Publishing houses, media, social media, internet providers, banks, film studios. You cannot disseminate a large scale message without them.

  80. EH says:
    @snorlax

    Ethiopians got their writing system from their fellow Semitics. (They’re about 40% Semitic genetically, and Amharic is a Semitic language. Their African genes are also very distant from those of Bantus.) To be fair, just about everybody today ultimately got their writing system from the Phoenicians.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Bliss
  81. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Reparations would be a mistake because:

    – We all know the problem with blacks isn’t money. Cut each one a check for $10,000 or $10 million, and two generations later you’re back where you started (and it’s whitey’s fault, for reasons).

    – We all know the problem with blacks is never going to get any better, short of massive admixture.

    – Thus, demands for further reparations would erupt every two or three generations in perpetuity, and those times there would be a precedent. Descendants of the original reparationees will say, “We weren’t around, they didn’t represent us, and it wasn’t done right and didn’t work. We need a redo.”

    Reparations will work very well so long as one key principle is absolutely maintained: no reparation without separation.

    We will offer descendants of slaves (>75% blood quantum give or take) who say they hate Amurrica and whites or who ‘can’t get past the legacy of slavery’ a sizable nest egg, half in cash and half spread out over 20 years, so they can move to a country which they prefer, in Africa or elsewhere, as long as it is on a different continent. The condition-non-negotiable, absolute, and irrevocable-once the jet is wheels up, their feet never touch US soil again. Ever.

    I figure a total nest egg of between $250 and $500k is appropriate. Put the money in a safe bank account and the interest will enable them to live like kangs in Africa.

    We’ll also have to pay the countries to take them, I figure. The agreement is that the expatriated black surrenders his or her US passport and is issued citizenship in their new country.

    Most of them will go through the cash up front like goose shit through a tin horn, but the rest will keep them fed and clothed well by local standards for the rest of their lives.

    • Replies: @Anon
  82. Seventy-four comments and nobody said “What mind?”

    I weep for the future of vaudeville-level snark.

  83. Mr. Blank says:

    Race matters because of the slights, the snickers, the silent judgments that reinforce that most crippling of thoughts: ‘I do not belong here.’

    Oh, brother. As a distinctively country-bumpkin-sounding white guy, I experienced EXACTLY THIS PHENOMENON on an almost daily basis in grad school. Should I have received special benefits as compensation?

    Seriously, though, I agree with Steve: I’m fine with affirmative action in the form of a straight quota system for a few small, well-defined groups. Since some form of affirmative action seems inevitable, that’s the lesser evil. The free-form version of affirmative action practiced today is far more destructive.

    • Replies: @Mr. Blank
    , @Sean
  84. Mr. Blank says:
    @Mr. Blank

    I mean, I can’t even count the number of times I had to listen to snickers and guffaws from better-bred students when I would try to pronounce, in my yee-haw Gomer Pyle accent, the name of some famous foreign scholar whose name I knew only from reading it in print.

    That entitles me to money and prizes, right? Hello?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  85. First, tell me, do you want to change your mind?

  86. One real harm of affirmative action is that it devalues genuine accomplishment by Blacks.

    A better compromise would be:

    1. Restrict it to Native Americans and Black Americans with deep roots in the USA

    2. In education, allow generous support for HBCUs and scholarships, but not lowered admission standards.

    3. In employment, restrict it to entry-level government make-work schemes, and places where the competence bar can be reasonably quite low (the US Postal Service, DMV etc).

    And also remove all affirmative action aimed at women.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  87. ‘There are also psychological effects: Black children live in a world where their very appearance presents them as “others,” often objects of either uneasy suspicion or patronizing sympathy.”

    Hmmmm. “Patronizing sympathy”? Sounds like an argument against AA right there.

  88. @Hail

    20.0% Subsaharan and up, get race benefits; no race benefits at 19.9% and below.

    Oh, boy! Elon Musk and Charlize Theron get low-interest loans that we can’t.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
  89. Sean says:
    @Mr. Blank

    The prof is from Harvard

    http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/52_harvard-blackstudents.html
    Many, if not most Americans, believe that the 1960s protest movement that produced aggressive college recruitment of “ghetto kids” continues today bringing significant numbers of low-income and often underqualified blacks to America’s elite campuses. But the conventional wisdom is false.
    In a 2004 interview Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., director of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African-American Research at Harvard, told the London Observer, “The black kids who come to Harvard or Yale are middle class. Nobody else gets through.” […]
    Professor Gates, speaking at a public forum at Princeton University, stated his belief that 75 percent of the black students at Harvard were of African or Caribbean descent or of mixed race. According to Professor Gates, more than two thirds of all Harvard’s black students were either the children or grandchildren of West Indians or Africans and very few of Harvard’s black students were the descendants of American slaves

    The few that are are all from wealthy families. It is all about filling places that could be taken by non elite white gentiles. The opposition to meritocratic admission of Chinese is tactical, because it would be too much too soon and white gentiles with power would also be affected.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  90. @EH

    To be fair, just about everybody today ultimately got their writing system from the Phoenicians.

    Just about everybody using an alphabet, that is. Syllabaries and ideographs have no connection to Phoenicia.

  91. Tyrion 2 says:

    Affirmative action is ripe for a campaign of civil disobedience.

    The framing is “solidarity”. As in “we are all Spartacus”.

    It shouldn’t be too explicit in its target but more one of not separating people out by race etc.

    Then people can virtue signal by putting random ethnobiographical details down when they fill out forms.

    E.g “I am a white man and I fill out my forms as a black woman. Black women deserve equal treatment to white men. I’m doing my bit, what about you?”

  92. “The last step, then, in the defense of affirmation [sic] action in college admissions is an appeal to the moral demand to compensate for the damage done to by [sic] minorities by a long history of racial discrimination. ”

    Dear Mr. Slim: Have you replaced your copy editors with A.I. bots? How’s that been workin’ out for ya?

  93. @Dave Pinsen

    Better to ask if it’s a poison pill or a weight that crushes us. White Identity, by Jared Taylor, makes a scholarly and devastating case that diversity is our strain. One of the more surprising findings in that book is that even professional diversity consultants freely admit that their only real job is damage control.

    Ethnic diversity is a pure liability, with only laughably marginal, muh-tacos exceptions.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  94. Realist says:
    @Alec Leamas

    Truth must rule….let the riots begin.

  95. bomag says:
    @gregor

    I’m actually surprised that liberals haven’t figured out that turning the public sector into a big jobs program for blacks undermines their quest to expand the role of the state.

    On many occasions, I’ve seen the incompetence of the state turned into an excuse to increase funding to now get things done.

    affirmative action arguably would give a greater boost to the morale of the low-performing group

    Insidiously, AA has gone beyond this and now fuels the narrative that White overlords have purposely kept the Other down via evil machinations, thus AA is needed planet wide to raise up the downtrodden.

    The Narrative goes that Whites feel guilty about their “privilege”, etc.; thus, they implemented AA as a weak measure to atone for their sins. But, the mob just sees this as admittance of guilt, thus justifying the mob as it loots and overruns whitey.

    • Agree: Mr McKenna
  96. @Anon

    Here in Ohio, a Republican governor (Voinovich) added Indians (dot) to the list of AA-eligible groups.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  97. Joe Walker says: • Website

    The problem with affirmative action is that it puts people into positions that they are unqualified for. Would you want to go to a doctor or lawyer who only got their position through affirmative action? I wouldn’t.

  98. When I went to the comments to the NYT artcle at 5:45 eastern time, Steve’s came up as the top NYT pick and one of the Reader picks.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  99. @gregor

    Once again, our beloved host has written of this in the past.

  100. @jimmyriddle

    About the Postal Service, that’s been done already, and the results speak for themselves.

  101. “A reasonable compromise based on this logic might be to preserve affirmative action for the historic victim groups of American history —”

    Or like the victims of the American indentured servitude “program” which turned however many thousands of Irish/English and other European ethnics into de facto slaves?

    Why no mention of them? Is this new compromise out of money already?

    • Replies: @JackOH
  102. JackOH says:

    Well, I’ve written here that I believe affirmative action is our #1 domestic evil, corrupting our thought and action in a whole bunch of ways. For example, there’s the one comment above that has AA as “riot insurance”, which is hard to quarrel with.

    Allow me space for quippiness. Wasn’t there a line from a play that said “whenever I hear the phrase ‘legacy of slavery’, I reach for my revolver”? Dang, I may have got that wrong.

    Isn’t there likewise a “legacy of emancipation” that ought to have superseded the “legacy of slavery”?

    Plus, when’s the last time anyone heard White folks say they got a bum deal in 2018 because of institutional arrangements their great-great-great-great-great-grandparents were in back in the 19th century?

    Plus, is it too much to ask that Black folks make their peace with America, that White folks make their peace with Blacks, and that we have laws that make that possible, instead of laws that encourage the worst instincts among disparate people who must somehow live together?

    Apologies for the micro-rant. Morning coffee’s working . . . .

  103. Seamus says:
    @Anon

    As usual, this is never spelled out in any detail, but the idea seems to be that the slave ancestor was super stressed out (and I think most poor white people in the mid-1800s were super stressed out too, life was hard), and this stress caused some hormone or something to be excreted into their system and then magic happened and IQ fell, and the homone excreter was passed on to kids epigenetically, voila!, so on down the line.

    Dr. Lysenko, please call your office.

  104. Seamus says:
    @Ibound1

    The courts have zero authority to set a percentage limit. That’s a legislative decision.

    Separation of powers, like most of that constitution written by dead white male slaveholders, is racist.

  105. diversity, section 8, welfare–they are all parasitical survival strategies, which is how most blacks operate in a European civilization. bottom line is that the American Negro is helpless without whites, and whites are now aware of what the game is. I predict that the makers will be divorcing the takers within 50 years

  106. @Hail

    Maybe 1/8th, certifiable by whether at least one of eight great-grandparents was identified as black on a census form. One-eighth is a good number since that’s what Dred Scott was, and he was a famous victim of discrimination.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  107. @kiismerhe

    The “philosopher” may as well say
    That incompetence just has to stay,
    And our dissatisfaction
    With “affirmative action”
    Is a tax that we Whites have to pay.

    • Agree: Prester John
  108. Bliss says:

    A reasonable compromise based on this logic might be to preserve affirmative action for the historic victim groups of American history — blacks descended from American slaves (e.g., Michelle Obama, but not Barack Obama) and for American Indians; but junk preferences for groups largely descended from recent immigrants.

    That’s just common sense. That was the original intent. The fact that it is not implemented that way is another example of how American Indians and African-Americans keep getting screwed.

  109. Dan Smith says:

    I had a discussion in around 1965 with my Dad, a career Naval officer, not a philosophy professor, about AA. He argued that it was necessary to give minorities ( we called them Negroes in those uninformed times) a leg up in college admissions so they could catch up, as it were, to white people in terms of achieving educational muscle power. Then, all the bad things were going to go away. No mention of reparations at the time. It’s now 53 years later. Will somebody do the calculation and tell me if the benefits have occurred?

  110. It always gets back to the problems of our obsolete farm equipment, the cotton pickers and their good-for-nothing follow-ons:

    Fom Sotomayor:”Race matters because of the slights, the snickers, the silent judgments that reinforce that most crippling of thoughts: ‘I do not belong here.’”

    It’s the sound of quiet when you’re in the ‘bad’ part of town. A feeling, “I don’t belong here”. But it’s only when Whites are stuck in a Black part of town, say, Newark, SE DC, certain parts of Philly if you make a wrong exit from the wrong part of I95 or the NJTP.

    The wise Latina(x) Sotomayor is correct. In that scenario, “I don’t belong here” is a siren call to run like Hell.

  111. JackOH says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Mike, the bio of Michael Harrington I’m reading mentions a 1764 ad in New Haven offering “A Parcel of Irish Servants . . . to be sold cheap”.

  112. Here is the argument:We oppose affirmative action because of Native Born White American Racial Tribalism….And we really don’t care if you don’t like this…Purfessthur…

  113. MLK says:

    I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Mind?

    What exactly is the logic here?

    This is an exercise in shifting the burden. An appeal to what you allude to with “Good Enough For Government Work.” Don’t try to fix something that really isn’t broken.

    One of the problems with that logic is that AA has failed those it was created to benefit, the descendants of slaves. I’ve had the same point of view for 30 years:

    A reasonable compromise based on this logic might be to preserve affirmative action for the historic victim groups of American history — blacks descended from American slaves (e.g., Michelle Obama, but not Barack Obama) and for American Indians; but junk preferences for groups largely descended from recent immigrants.

    But this is anything but a compromise based on his logic. The reason being because it would return us to first principles and objectives.

    The logic which has no merit and has become highly deleterious is treating all AA as ‘Apples to Apples’ under the rubric of diversity. No one, including Gutting, actually believes that, though many if not most say they do because the whole thing comes apart at the seams if Trump Logic (focus on objectives/outcomes) takes hold.

    My point being by mention of POTUS Trump is an analogy to his Global Trade Reset. In short, Gutting is arguing the counter — ‘I’m for Free Trade, can you change my mind?’ Trump is destroying what is playfully referred to as Free Trade, which is anything but, by ruthlessly invoking principles and objectives.

  114. @Anon

    As Lenin said “Who? Whom?”

  115. ATBOTL says:

    It seemed like shorty after 2000, affirmative action as an issue basically disappeared. Conservatives used to talk about it a lot back in the 70’s through 90’s. My sense is that the post-9/11 imperialist culture that swept conservative white America had a lot to do with it. All the attention was directed to “support the war, support Bush, support the military, support the police, support domestic surveillance” etc.

    Trump didn’t even bring it up.

    The DR3 thinking obviously was a big factor. White conservatives have been obsessed lately with trying to win blacks over and have nothing to show for it. Part of the obsession has been to ignore AA.

    When is this going to change? When are white conservatives going to demand that anti-white discrimination cease?

  116. @Joe Walker

    Yeah, but wouldn’t you feel chills of excitement, knowing that you were participating in The Great Experiment.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  117. Seamus says:

    “There are also psychological effects: Black children live in a world where their very appearance presents them as ‘others,’ often objects of either uneasy suspicion or patronizing sympathy.”

    Yeah, Nigerians are so beaten down psychologically that they have higher average incomes than white Americans.

  118. @snorlax

    I should have said “sub-Saharan African tribe”.

  119. Svigor says:

    The last step, then, in the defense of affirmation [sic] action in college admissions is an appeal to the moral demand to compensate for the damage done to by minorities by a long history of racial discrimination.

    This dude can’t even make a proper sentence, never mind logic.

    “The burdens of history” argument only works when history was actually a burden.

    Slavery lifted blacks up.

  120. Mr. Anon says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    One of the more surprising findings in that book is that even professional diversity consultants freely admit that their only real job is damage control.

    Really? I’m surprised that they bother to control the amount of damage that they inflict.

  121. Mr. Anon says:
    @Redneck farmer

    Here in Ohio, a Republican governor (Voinovich) added Indians (dot) to the list of AA-eligible groups.

    Because, after all, America was India’s oppressive colonial master.

  122. Mr. Anon says:
    @Hail

    20.0% Subsaharan and up, get race benefits; no race benefits at 19.9% and below.

    That’s the same criterion used for Uranium.

    I guess real black people are Highly Enriched Africanium. And people like Idi Amin and Jean-Bedel Bokassa are weapons-grade.

    • LOL: Hail
  123. @Alec Leamas

    “the only worthwhile argument in favor of Affirmative Action is that it is a necessary evil to keep a fragile social peace”

    Yes, this is the only serious argument in its favor. It may not be right, but it is a legitimate argument.

    IMHO, the real evil of Affirmative Action isn’t that it exists. It is that it is discussed so dishonestly. The lies used to support the policy metastasize and propagate into other areas, creating malignant and aggressive sociopolitical cancer. [Sorry about that metaphor, but it really is apt.]

    A Just Affirmative Action would be 1) honest, and 2) transparent. In the best case, we would know the society-wide number of AA jobs and AA students, the dollar amount of AA contracts. Elizabeth Warren wouldn’t be able to pretend AA had nothing to do with her fabulous career. You would know that the pilot of the plane you are about to board or the surgeon of the procedure you are about to undergo got the job because of race rather than merit. If you are fine with that, then God bless you. If you decline that flight or that surgery, then no penalty attaches.

    But at a very minimum, not discussing AA so dishonestly, as this professor does, would end.

    Well, I know we all do our part by speaking truth to power to extent circumstances allow. So God bless you all.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @anon.
  124. Typo alert. That last sentence should read “… the Supreme Court has over the years created the rationale that affirmative action is NOT reparations to blacks …” Otherwise, the complete sentence makes no sense. (Sean December 11, 2018 6:24 am GMT agrees.)

  125. anon[203] • Disclaimer says:

    Race matters because of the slights, the snickers, the silent judgments that reinforce that most crippling of thoughts: ‘I do not belong here.’”

    maybe consider listening to that voice that tells you this

  126. @kiismerhe

    No, that will convince no one.

    As Justice Kennedy explained once to some school kids when speaking of the need to get rid of segregation: “It hurts people.”

    All the scientific, academic explanations fall before the logic of harm and hurt feelings. So we just tell liberals, “It hurts people.”

  127. Jack D says:
    @ThreeCranes

    We know that no African tribe developed a written language. None developed a sophisticated number system. African culture seems to have been expressed in singing and dancing, just as it is today.

    1. When you speak of African, it is important to state Subsaharan African. North Africa has an entirely different history.

    2. Subsaharan African culture consists of more than just singing and dancing. Their visual arts (sculpture, masks, jewelry, etc.) were also quite expressive. It’s important to note that they were not Stone Age (like the American Indians) but had the capability of making iron tools and weapons. The Zulus were fierce warriors and even defeated European armies (e.g. the Battle of Isandlwana). However, it does seem like they were deficient in matters involving abstract reasoning (mathematics, etc.).

    • Replies: @snorlax
  128. Lowe says:
    @Alec Leamas

    Eccentric billionaires need to step up, and do something truly non-conformist. Like signing ghostwritten rebuttals of the conventional wisdom.

    How much can SJWs actually hurt you if your business is in finance or energy? I don’t know, but probably not a lot.

  129. Jack D says:
    @Almost Missouri

    These two things (keeping social peace vs. transparent AA) are inherently contradictory. Keeping social peace, by definition, requires polite fictions such as the crap that Gutting espouses, O’Connor’s fiction that the need for AA will someday disappear, and so on. Social peace is often (perhaps always) built on polite fictions and hypocrisies. Not just the peace that prevails between blacks and whites but between the different social classes, people of differing wealth and abilities, the sexes, etc. No society can function based on cold dry truth all the time – polite fictions grease the wheels of the machine and allow it to function.

    Blacks want to (need to, for reasons of personal pride) have it both ways – OTOH benefit from AA, OTOH, insist that they are the intellectual equals of whites and the need for AA arises only because of white racism and not due to any genetic inferiority or any problems with black culture that need to be fixed by the black community itself. This contradiction is never going away. There is a reason that AA is conducted under a blanket of night and fog – it is an inherently shameful thing and cannot withstand the light of day given our constitutional and philosophical imperatives of equality.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Rosie
    , @Almost Missouri
  130. The wealth (total value of home, savings, investments, etc.) of middle-class white families is about four times that of middle-class black families.

    But, then these “middle-class” black families aren’t middle-class.

  131. anon[203] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Blacks want to (need to, for reasons of personal pride) have it both ways – OTOH benefit from AA, OTOH, insist that they are the intellectual equals of whites and the need for AA arises only because of white racism….

    jews are behind this argument though, just like they were behind the NAACP

  132. Lowe says:
    @J.Ross

    You’re reading too much into his comment. The police would agree. People use the word “wreck” in all kinds of ways.

    I wonder is whether some part of Tim Wise is embarrassed by his life. Isn’t it beneath a grown man to stalk a college student and plot his downfall like a cartoon villain?

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  133. songbird says:
    @gregor

    What I’d say is whatever you subsidize you get more of. You can’t buy the status quo, only a trend. And we can’t afford the trend.

  134. peterike says:
    @Anon

    (and I think most poor white people in the mid-1800s were super stressed out too, life was hard)

    Indeed. Read a novel like “Giants in the Earth” about pioneer life on the Dakota plains for Norwegian immigrants. The typical black house servant in the South had a far easier life.

  135. phil says:

    “We all know about the lynchings..”

    Uh, no. Among the people lynched were whites. Among the blacks lynched, a high percentage were guilty of horrific crimes. And… the number of whites murdered by blacks during just a few high-crime years exceeds the total number of blacks lynched in all of the many decades for which records exist.

    It’s time to end affirmative action for blacks. It has always been time to end affirmative action for blacks.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  136. peterike says:

    A surprising number of the comments (of those I read) on the article are against Aff Ack, and nearly all are some spin on the “it should be based on class, not race” argument. Which I guess is the politest kind of opposition you can have. I didn’t see anyone — even Steve — address the elephant in the room of racial differences in ability. But then, I suspect no such comment would get past the NY Times censors. (I did see someone say there is “zero” genetic basis to differences in outcome, so it has to be societal — sigh).

    There were a few Chinese whiners saying, “Chinese are the REAL discriminated against!” Of course, being let into our country by the millions and given total access to all the institutions that white people built isn’t good enough. We have to let you ALL in. I get it. How many American whites attend the best Chinese universities, or teach there, I’d like to know.

    Anyway, it’s all a pointless discussion. Nothing is going to change. And why isn’t anyone asking, “Why do we have government small business loans in the first place?”

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Rosie
  137. Jack D says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    learning to deal with people who are obviously different strengthens the core American value of individualism.

    Aside from the question of whether it is really good for you to be “working out” at the diversity gym 24/7, I question the original premise – that diversity strengthens American individualism. I think it does the exact opposite. For example, the response of whites in NYC in the ’60s and ’70s to dealing with people who were “obviously different” (such as crime prone blacks from the South) was to either flee to the ultra-white suburbs (which were more segregated than the old neighborhoods ever were) or to strengthen the value of COLLECTIVISM by forming organizations such as the Guardian Angels and the Jewish Defense League. And later to strengthen the police force, another form of collective action.

    “Individualism” was strengthened only in that the suburbs left people isolated and destroyed the traditional neighborhood collective institutions such as the ethnic social clubs and organizations that existed in the cities. I wouldn’t call this “individualistic” but “atomized” – people were left as isolated consumers whose main interaction with society was to watch ads on TV and buy the junk that was being touted there. Which corporate America liked just fine.

    The traditional kind of American individualism (the kind where you didn’t bother locking the doors to your house) was strongest where the people were most homogeneous.

    Most of all, “diversity” begs the question of what are the diverse like? If the diverse are really violent and crime prone like blacks and Guatemalans, it’s hard to say how even a little time in the diversity gym is good for you.

  138. Jack D says:
    @anonymous

    The movie was released in ’88 and Till was killed in ’55, so more like 30 years. But the Mississippi of 1988 was entirely different from that of 1955 and even more so today, but in Hollywood it’s alway 1955 in Mississippi.

  139. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    A triangulating path would be to reduce international students, rather than A/A. That would also reduce the number of OPT and H-1B.

    Internationals are a “visible minority” but rarely are they more than 10% of enrollment, if that, so getting rid of them doesn’t really do much. They also pay full freight, which decreases costs for the remaining white students, while AA students are usually attending for free or at greatly reduced prices (i.e. the white students are paying for them).

    • Replies: @anon
  140. Pat Boyle says:

    The idea that racism has caused black people problems is a classic case of the “Post quo, ergo propter quo” fallacy. That means that if some event follows after some other event, it does not mean that the first caused the second. In the case of racism it is observed that Negroes have lower IQ’s, more crime, less achievement than some of the other races. It is also observed that in this country there used to be considerable ill treatment of black people.

    If you assert that the behavioral deficits of blacks are caused by their former mistreatment you are jumping to a conclusion. You are committing a logical fallacy.

    If you then prescribe a remedy like Affirmative Action you are just making it worse.

    I do not approve of racial epithets. Everyone should be polite. But it is vacuous to claim that calling an Italian a ‘Dago’ will lower his IQ. If that sort of thing actually happened it would be trivial to create a research design that could predict a person’s IQ based on the number of racial slurs he had endured. But there are no such studies. A lot of social policy and jurisprudence assumes all sorts of racial effects that have never been systematically observed.

    Almost all the classic examples of racial prejudice are based on supposition. Very little is based on actual knowledge. Indeed people don’t really expect race issues to be logically sound. For example – two different water fountains. At one time in the South Jim Crow laws and customs led to water fountains being labeled ‘White’ and ‘Black’. Everyone thinks this is terrible but has it ever been demonstrated that it had any bad effect? For example blacks kill each other at astonishingly high rates. And it is also true that at one time there were separate water fountains. We stopped having separate water fountains but still have plenty of black on black shootings.

    The answer is simple – racism as presently conceived is bunk. It doesn’t exit. If it ever did it was a long time ago. It is mostly just a hustle.

  141. Anonymous[457] • Disclaimer says:

    “Black children live in a world where their very appearance presents them as “others,” often objects of either uneasy suspicion or patronizing sympathy.”

    White people live in a world where their very appearance in certain neighborhoods presents them as “others,” often objects of either mugging or rape.

  142. JMcG says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I agree completely. Compromising has gotten us curb stomped for fifty or sixty years now. That America is gone.

  143. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Affirmative action has nothing to do with its ostensible aims to redress past wrongs and injustices, and everything to do with trying to stabilize society by co-opting representatives of the various demographic groups in society and getting them to “buy in” to the system and submit to the prevailing power structure and elite. You see this in all complex societies. Institutions use formal and informal quotas to be representative to certain degrees and thus inhibit revolt and destabilization. Even the very structure of the US government includes this. Every state in the union gets 2 senate votes, despite the vast differences in population, wealth, influence, power among the states. It’s a form of affirmative action provided to smaller states to get them to buy in to the union.

    These African and West Indian blacks are not descendents of American slaves, but it’s considered ok for them to get the AA slots because they’re perceived to represent the black portion of society, by most blacks and non-blacks, for practical purposes.

    With the decline of anti-Semitic discrimination and the general taboo against anti-Semitic attitudes, Jews have come to occupy a similar position as these Africans/West Indians. Jews are not supposed to be singled out from white gentiles and thus are supposed to represent the white gentile population in institutions. The dilemma for Jews is that in more homogeneous societies, they are more likely to be singled out a la Europe historically, Germany in the 30s, etc., while in more heterogeneous societies, there is greater political consciousness among the various groups in society which can also lead to Jews getting singled out. I think the ideal situation for Jews is not to be the sole minority in society and thus the target of the white gentile man on the street, but for there to be enough diversity and for the white gentile man on the street to be unaware of Jewish representation among the elite and for there to be other targets for his ire.

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @Jack D
  144. @Mr. Blank

    That entitles me to money and prizes, right?

    Yes. You can pick up your money at Steve’s Malibu house.

  145. map says:

    The professor is for affirmative action…for other people. Not for himself or his career.

  146. anon[203] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    They also pay full freight, which decreases costs for the remaining white students…

    any proof? more likely it all goes to low income AA students

    ….while AA students are usually attending for free or at greatly reduced prices (i.e. the white students are paying for them).

    this i believe

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Rosie
  147. Jack D says:
    @Dr. X

    Gutting isn’t even a sophist, which requires a certain level of … uh… sophistication. He’s just a mediocrity. His arguments amount to who…whom and the only reason that serious people don’t just laugh at them is that they conform so well with the religious pieties and conventional wisdom of our age.

    Someone said that this amount to a cynical “I dare you!” by Gutting. Like the Communist authorities forcing Havel’s greengrocer to display “Workers of the World Unite!” signs in his window, he is doing this to humiliate us, knowing that most of us are not brave enough to publicly counter his lies and risk the destruction of our careers. But I think he lacks even the self awareness for that. Like all true believers, he has drunk his own Kool-Aid and really believes this crap. I would have more respect for him if he really was an apparatchik, who was at least getting paid to enforce the Party line, but no he is a fool who is doing this for free. The irony is that fools like this are the 1st ones who are swept aside if the Revolution ever prevails – the new Red Guards would gladly toss this old whitey out the window just for being whitey no matter how Woke he claimed to be.

  148. The connection would have to lie . . . in the present-day residues, the stubborn structural effects of centuries of mistreatment . . . “

    I guess the benefit of fancying yourself as a “philosopher” is that you aren’t burdened with mundane matters like empirical proof or examining alternative hypotheses. (Like Blacks having an average IQ of 85).

    You can just assume that correlation equals causation because it’s part of your brief to define reality, anyway.

    This is an annoying trend at the NYT. They have someone propounded the usual hackneyed social justice talking points, but they do so “as a philosopher” or “as a social scientist.” As if that gives a new weight to the old cliches.

  149. @Achmed E. Newman

    They don’t compromise because they don’t see this as a debate among fellow citizens. The other side is in a war. They want us either dead or subjugated. We are evil in their minds. Why would they compromise.

  150. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    I think the ideal situation for Jews is not to be the sole minority in society and thus the target of the white gentile man on the street, but for there to be enough diversity and for the white gentile man on the street to be unaware of Jewish representation among the elite and for there to be other targets for his ire.

    No, the ideal situation for Jews would to be

    So strong that no one would, no one could, threaten their existence.

  151. @Anon

    The reality is that conservatives need their own country.

    Although I do not consider myself a ‘conservative’ I think you have a point. But you might as well say the same thing for ‘white people’ and the problem remains: if you create something nice, but do not protect it, it will be ruined by a flood of ‘others’.

    That’s actually the situation America enjoyed until several decades ago, but unfortunately we’d also imported a virus bent on killing the host.

  152. @J.Ross

    And (in our case, aided and abetted by a flood of third-world immigration) it leads straight toward first–dispossession and then–massacres.

  153. Jack D says:
    @anon

    You need a certain amount of $ to operate the U. The more money there is from full paying (foreign) students, the less natives have to pay to fund the budget (foreign students pay out of state tuition at state U’s). This is why U’s like foreign students. This benefits both black and white locals. If blacks are already paying zero they can’t pay less than zero so whites get the benefit.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  154. Bliss says:
    @EH

    To be fair, just about everybody today ultimately got their writing system from the Phoenicians.

    The Phoenician alphabet (and their language as well) can be traced back to Ancient Egypt:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet

    The history of the alphabet started in ancient Egypt…..In the Middle Bronze Age, an apparently “alphabetic” system known as the Proto-Sinaitic script appears in Egyptian turquoise mines in the Sinai peninsula dated to circa the 15th century BC……an even earlier version of this first alphabet at Wadi el-Hol dated to circa 1800 BC and showing evidence of having been adapted from specific forms of Egyptian hieroglyphs that could be dated to circa 2000 BC, strongly suggesting that the first alphabet had been developed about that time.[10]……..The Proto-Sinaitic script eventually developed into the Phoenician alphabet, which is conventionally called “Proto-Canaanite” before ca. 1050 BC.[2] The oldest text in Phoenician script is an inscription on the sarcophagus of King Ahiram. This script is the parent script of all western alphabets.

  155. Barack Obama is NOT “African-American” in the sense that we have understood that term for decades, when it replaced the term “Afro-American” which meant precisely the same thing: an American citizen whose ancestors lived within the territorial US sometime before 1865 and were held in bondage. Barry would be more precisely called “Kenyan-American” since we know exactly which nation was the homeland of his father.

    • Agree: Bliss
  156. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    These African and West Indian blacks are not descendents of American slaves, but it’s considered ok for them to get the AA slots because they’re perceived to represent the black portion of society, by most blacks and non-blacks, for practical purposes.

    For practical purposes, places like Harvard need reasonably bright African and West Indian blacks to fill their black quota because if they had to use only Michelle Obama type blacks they could not get enough even minimally qualified blacks to make it thru 4 years. They need their Obamas and Holders.

    The dilemma for Jews is that in more homogeneous societies, they are more likely to be singled out a la Europe historically, Germany in the 30s, etc., while in more heterogeneous societies, there is greater political consciousness among the various groups in society which can also lead to Jews getting singled out.

    So damned if you do, damned if you don’t? Jews did pretty well in America vs. Europe because blacks filled the role of the all purpose scapegoat/visible minority.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    , @snorlax
  157. Bliss says:
    @ThreeCranes

    We know that no African tribe developed a written language.

    You must be hanging around only ignoramuses then. The Ancient Egyptians, the Nubians, the Ethiopians, the Nigerians had writing long before any Northern European tribe. Educate yourself:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meroitic_alphabet

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge%27ez_script

    • Replies: @snorlax
  158. @J.Ross

    Some people are just above the law.

    Entire classes of people are above the law, and believe you me, they know it.

  159. @Jack D

    Jews did pretty well in America vs. Europe because blacks filled the role of the all purpose scapegoat/visible minority.

    And the lesson is: pollute every country your people control, so that you may always “do pretty well”…ergo the flood of third-world immigration.

  160. @Jack D

    The more money there is from full paying (foreign) students, the less natives have to pay to fund the budget

    I find that unconvincing. Introducing foreign students into our education market is a classic case of increasing demand for the product (or, as economists like to say, “shifting the demand curve out”). Every economics textbook will tell you that that makes the equilibrium price go up.

    Think of your favorite sports team. It’s in the doldrums, losing game after game. Stalwarts like you that attend the games, and not much anyone else. Then one year, finally, the team gets it together and rises to the top of its division. Lots of fair-weather fans materialize, the stadium is no longer half-empty, and there’s strong demand for the expensive VIP seats. What happens with the price of a ticket? Does the team’s owner use his new source of revenue to lower the price of cheap seats? Nope.

    I’m afraid the “full-fare foreigners subsidize tuition for Americans” is just a self-serving myth — one of many — propagated by the colleges.

    • Replies: @Anon
  161. “I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Mind?”

    But you have to change my mind without saying anything that sounds “offensive”: you need to make your argument relying only on facts, sociological theories, links to web sites and words that I approve of.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  162. @Anon

    We all know the problem with blacks is never going to get any better, short of massive admixture.

    Well then, massive admixture ye shall have, if MSM depictions are any indicator. Almost uniformly, they insist that the only acceptable mate for a white woman is a black man; if none are handy other POC are an acceptable substitute, but only occasionally.

  163. @william munny

    Could you paste it in here for us, please, Mr. Munny? (That is, unless it’s pretty much what he wrote above.) I’ll be damned if I’m gonna click on the NY Times. Seriously, I’m pretty worried that I will.

    • Replies: @william munny
  164. @Joe Walker

    That’s 1/2 of it. The other (zero-sum, see?) half is the white guys who didn’t get to be doctors, doing what they wanted to, in life, due to being discriminated against by law. How many of you think that this is just fine with you? How about for your sons?

    (I didn’t mention lawyers, cause, …. lawyers.)

  165. @International Jew

    Oh, come on!

    AEN, speaking on behalf of Mr. Gutting

  166. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    It is extremely debatable if Jim Crowe was horrible and not net beneficial to everyone. We’d have to run the nuumbers. Stating that Jim Crowe produced “horrors” on the whole is pure propaganda.

    So you’re saying that being treated like 2nd class citizens in the country of their birth may have been net beneficial to blacks? In that case, you won’t mind it when you get treated as a 2nd class citizen in your own country, I guess. I guess lynching was also “net beneficial to everyone”, even the hanging victim, because it stretched your neck muscles?

    Seriously, that’s a bridge too far. Whites in the South may have enacted Jim Crow for (their own) good reasons but to say that it was “net beneficial” to blacks is ridiculous. Perhaps if “separate but equal” was really equal then you might be able to make an argument that separation of the races was the best thing to do but in reality it was carried out in a way that was not “net beneficial” to blacks. Blacks were perhaps always doomed to failure by virtue of their lower IQ but Jim Crow mainly made things worse (for them). There were some small advantages to, for example, black owned small businesses but these were paid for by black consumers who had to pay higher prices and get inferior service (which is why these businesses mostly disappeared when Jim Crow did).

  167. @Tyrion 2

    AGREED!

    That’s all it would take to take the whole system down.

    I AM SHITAVIOUS!

    • LOL: Dtbb
  168. Saxon says:
    @Alec Leamas

    Appeasement in the hopes you’ll be stuffed into the cannibal’s cookpot last, huh?

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
  169. Rosie says:
    @Jack D

    Blacks want to (need to, for reasons of personal pride) have it both ways – OTOH benefit from AA, OTOH, insist that they are the intellectual equals of whites and the need for AA arises only because of white racism and not due to any genetic inferiority or any problems with black culture that need to be fixed by the black community itself. This contradiction is never going away.

    Reason number 1,488 why Whites need our own country.

  170. Rosie says:
    @anon

    any proof? more likely it all goes to low income AA students

    It doesn’t matter either way. The foreign students may be reducing White costs, but they’re going to reduce their wages, too, so it’s an economic wash – and an ethnic-genetic catastrophe.

  171. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:
    @International Jew

    The university economic structure is like that of the airlines. Capital intensive, high labor costs, and price discriminating. Also monpolistic, “national flag carrier” and “flagship university”.

    So, do the first class passengers subsidize the rest? Perhaps in historical terms. There are far more planes, and far better planes, and the inflation adjusted cost is down. But service standards were also said to decrease, though I think this has more to do with increasing number of proles flying and the application of anti-discrimination law to flight attendants.

    In the same vein, the value of the university degree is in relative decline, but in contrast to the airlines the inflation adjusted cost is up. The university systems have put capital investments into athletics, fitness centers and social justice warriors. There’s also a host of questionable administrators that don’t seem to do anything. The airlines in comparison were able to eliminate the need for the third man in the cockpit.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  172. Rosie says:
    @Jack D

    There were some small advantages to, for example, black owned small businesses but these were paid for by black consumers who had to pay higher prices and get inferior service (which is why these businesses mostly disappeared when Jim Crow did).

    You are incorrect here. Jim Crowe forced the talented tenth to live with ghetto blacks, and gave them an incentive to hold them to standards.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  173. @Jack D

    I agree with IJ on his reply regarding the university’s encouragement of full-paying foreign students. That money just goes into the pot for more buildings to house more students and more $75,000/year deans and administrators of this or that. Additionally, at the grad school level, those students are not particularly bright anymore, and are there for some cheap labor doing research and teaching classes to high-paying kids who can’t understand them, costing plenty of white Americans any good shot at grad school (not based on scores, but impossibility of supporting a family on that meager assistantship income).

    But, that wasn’t what I was going to write on this reply (just want to keep total comment #s down a bit), haha!

    I like your great comment here though about the mindset of this guy Gutting. I just noted that he is an Emeritus Professor of Philosophy. Man things are going downhill at the U’s if you see what I mean here. I guess that’s why some commenters here have been replying with simple logic, but as you say, this guy is probably a true believer, and arguments are beneath him.

    When the Red Guards, Red Khmers, or whoever comes to get him, he needs to remember throw away his spectacles. Then he might have a fighting chance.

  174. Saxon says:
    @notanon

    I think we all know how that would actually play out; Policy making it illegal for pure Europeans to reproduce with others of their own kind.

  175. Bill says:
    @Alec Leamas

    The objective is to skim off the talented tenth and give them sinecures. That way they have some investment in the status quo and won’t be going around fomenting unrest. The untalented nine tenths just get walled off in some ghetto from which they are unable to escape without their leaders. Kind of like District 9.

  176. Rosie says:
    @peterike

    There were a few Chinese whiners saying, “Chinese are the REAL discriminated against!” Of course, being let into our country by the millions and given total access to all the institutions that white people built isn’t good enough. We have to let you ALL in. I get it. How many American whites attend the best Chinese universities, or teach there, I’d like to know.

    Always remember, most non-whites say,

    “What’s ours is ours to keep, what’s yours is multicultural.”

    • Replies: @Anon
  177. @Tyrion 2

    Henceforth I wish to be known as Obatumba Wamabumbe.
    Umm….Ron?

  178. @Dave Pinsen

    ” . . . MUH CORE VALUE . . . ”
    Those words, “core value”, or just “value” or “values” are the modern, secular equivalent of saying something is Scripture. But a counterfeit.

    I reject the notion of “core values”.

    Yeah, I know, that means throw away all those “mission statements” of corporations, colleges, non-profits, even churches. Good riddance.

    In the realm of A Nation, we have Laws and Customs. Laws by the consent of the governed. Immigration since 1965 is lie upon deceit, it is imposed without the consent of the American people. Reckless immigration is gasoline on the destructive flames of AA.

    Customs as handed down from our Forefathers such as the Virginia Colonists of the South and the Pilgrim Fathers up North. Those Customs served us well, while we maintained them, made us the greatest Nation of all history. But many fools have cast aside American Customs.

    Law and Custom is what matters.

  179. @Dave Pinsen

    Just as lifting weights strengthens muscles,

    Hey – here’s an idea to make us all financially fit!
    Let’s all get a big burden of debt to carry around! Just a lifting weights builds muscles, a big burden of bottomless debt makes you financially fit!

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  180. SMK says: • Website
    @FruitDestroyer

    The distinct “burden” faced by Negros, especially “blacks” who are not mulattoes, quadroons, and octoroons, is low average IQ and its psychological, emotional, and behavioral consequences. Nature is to blame, not whites and “racism” and the “legacy of slavery and segregation.” The blacks of Haiti murdered all the whites over 200-years ago after torturing, raping, gang-raping, mutilating, and eating who knows how many of them. The distinctly hellish poverty, violence, criminality, anarchy, dysfunction, etc. of Haiti, the worst nation in the Western Hemisphere, and comparable to African countries, has nothing to do with the legacy of slavery and everything to do with a population that has an average IQ of 67.

  181. snorlax says:
    @Jack D

    For practical purposes, places like Harvard need reasonably bright African and West Indian blacks to fill their black quota

    Not that you disagree, but of course that’s begging the question by assuming the desirability of a “black quota.”

    So damned if you do, damned if you don’t?

    Yes. When you don’t have to be a visible minority, the best way to avoid scapegoating is stop trying to make “I’m a visible minority” happen.

    Jews did pretty well in America vs. Europe because blacks filled the role of the all purpose scapegoat/visible minority.

    Jews did pretty well in America because the eeeevul WASPs were/are by far the most racially, ethnically and religiously tolerant and generous people who have ever existed, particularly with respect to Jews.

    Blacks were never the “all-purpose scapegoat” except in the South and among those working-class urban whites who had to live alongside them. Among the rest, blank-slatist and Numinous Negro type thinking goes back nearly two centuries.

    The actual all-purpose scapegoats were 1) consistently throughout US history, Southern whites and 2) successively, Loyalists, Germans and Scots-Irish, Catholic Irish and Chinese, Italians and briefly Germans again, WASPs and then whites.

  182. anon[245] • Disclaimer says:

    Read the story on the Marine aircraft collision near Japan and my i-steve trained mind naturally asked if this could be an affirmative action-related incident.

    Guess what. Sadly, this pilot lost his life among four other Marines and people not totally indoctrinated with PC culture have to question if it’s true that affirmative action is still a supposedly necessary evil, does it have to include jobs where hiring based on group membership instead of competence can get many people killed? https://goo.gl/images/kPQRmX

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    , @Jim Don Bob
  183. snorlax says:
    @Jack D

    but had the capability of making iron tools and weapons. … it does seem like they were deficient in matters involving abstract reasoning (mathematics, etc.).

    Which put them roughly 3,000 years behind Europe.

  184. @Lowe

    Isn’t it beneath a grown man to stalk a college student and plot his downfall like a cartoon villain?

    So you’d think. But in the Current Year, the rewards for “punching nazis” are limitless. And by “punching” we mean “anything we want to do” and by “Nazis” we mean “anyone we don’t like”. Such are the Privileges of Power.

  185. @phil

    Thank you. Hardly ever does anyone mention these basic truths.

  186. Anon[333] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    According to this logic, wouldn’t it mean that American land was taken from the Chinese?

    If institutions built by a subset of whites at some point in history are the collective property of whites, including subsets of whites that did not build the institutions and aren’t descendants of the builders, then that would suggest that since American Indians and Chinese are the same race, American Indian land was their collective property.

    I think most people implicitly subscribe to this sort of logic of collective property. I think it’s why, for example, whites in general don’t get worked up about the plight of South African whites, while they might be concerned about immigration and demographic change in Europe.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  187. snorlax says:
    @Bliss

    Ethiopians and Nubians (i.e. Sudanese) are much more closely related to Arabs than Bantus.

    The “Nsibidi” of the Igbos, the highest-achieving West Africans, is considered “proto-writing,” (it isn’t related to a spoken language) not writing, and the earliest confirmed inscriptions are from the 15th century A.D. There are a handful of artifacts that some researchers speculate have inscriptions in earlier forms of Nsibidi, and the earliest of those was dated to an interval of the 5th to 9th century A.D.

    Northern Europe was too cold for Bronze or Iron Age agriculture and so was very sparsely populated during that time period, but nevertheless artifacts with actual writing have been found dating to an interval of the 5th to 2nd century B.C. in Slovenia and the 1st century A.D. near the border between Germany and Denmark.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Bliss
    , @Bliss
  188. @Anon

    It is the liberal way, occupy the moral high ground and then hurl down immoral epithets.

  189. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Sarah Toga

    I don’t think it’s been fashionable since the 2008 crash, but there used to be a theory that high levels of corporate debt were good in part because it was a “knife on the steering wheel” that kept management on its toes.

    • LOL: Sarah Toga
    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  190. Affirmative action represents two faulty premises; one is the attribution of all personal qualities to environment, and the other is credentialism – the assumption that the scarecrow doesn’t need a brain, just a diploma. Underlying both is the assumption that assuring equal outcomes for all people is the only right and just order of society.

    Yet education is merely the development of existing capacities. Since Mr. Gutting is a professor of philosophy, it might be appropriate to mention Plato’s dialogue Meno, in which Socrates shows that Meno’s young slave is wrong about a problem in geometry, but then elicits a correct answer from him by a series of questions. This, Socrates argues, shows that knowledge is already present in the mind, and needs only to be re-awakened.

    We need not subscribe to Plato’s concept of anamnesis. It is enough to observe that the mind is like an untilled field; cultivation brings out its natural fertility, and makes it productive. But, just as all soil is not equally fecund, so all minds are not. We cannot, however hard we try, raise corn in the Sahara desert or the arctic tundra. So it is with education. Some minds are impervious to cultivation. Others are cultivable, but with poor or mediocre results. Only the best yield rich harvests.

    Our faith in education as a means of lifting people out of poverty and bettering society as a whole originates in the great success it had in so doing during the latter half of the nineteenth and the earlier half of the twentieth centuries. It succeeded because there was then a great deal of undeveloped potential. Today, not much of that is left.

    IQ – and proxies for IQ, such as SAT scores – are not particularly malleable by education. Ignorance can be remedied, but stupidity cannot. When dealing with black/white differences in achievement we run up against the stubborn fact that in the U.S. population, median black IQ is about 15 points below median white IQ. This does not mean that there are not high-IQ blacks and low-IQ whites, but rather that high-IQ blacks are much rarer than high-IQ whites. Reliance on test scores alone for college admissions therefore necessarily leads to disparate impacts on the two groups.

    The effect of affirmative action is that admissions criteria are made less demanding for blacks than for whites, and typically, less demanding for whites than for East Asians. One might find, for example, that under such a regimen, black applicants needed a SAT score of 1200, white applicants a score of 1300, and Asians a score of 1400 to qualify. Such an arrangement seems to be deemed acceptable if the result is that a sufficient number of black applicants are admitted. The same reasoning must eventually apply to grading once the applicants are admitted, and ultimately to requirements for graduation. It availeth not if the entering class be 10% black, but the graduating class should include far fewer than 10%. That, too, will be considered a disparate impact, and prima facie evidence of racial discrimination.

    This line of reasoning leads ultimately to the devaluation of the degree. Formal education is almost by definition anti-egalitarian. If a diploma does not confer ant real distinction on its holder, implying that he is significantly superior to those who do not possess such a credential, what is the point of getting one? As an academic, what does that imply for Mr. Gutting and his institution?

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    , @Jack D
  191. @Jack D

    So you’re saying that being treated like 2nd class citizens in the country of their birth may have been net beneficial to blacks?

    It’s pretty likely, and should be obvious to anyone who even glances at what happens to blacks who don’t have white people around them.

    In that case, you won’t mind it when you get treated as a 2nd class citizen in your own country, I guess.

    Non sequitur; anyone might well ‘mind’ something worse than what he’s used to, but that’s not the case in black American history. Or with immigrants for that matter.

    I guess lynching was also “net beneficial to everyone”

    Another non sequitur; one gets tired of explaining. Atomic bombs are also not “net beneficial to everyone.”

  192. @Jack D

    The irony is that fools like this are the 1st ones who are swept aside if the Revolution ever prevails – the new Red Guards would gladly toss this old whitey out the window just for being whitey no matter how Woke he claimed to be.

    Yep. Ask the old Bolsheviks how it worked out for them. “If Stalin only knew!”

  193. @Rosie

    Jim Crowe forced the talented tenth to live with ghetto blacks, and gave them an incentive to hold them to standards.

    Yep. And as soon as federal fair housing laws were passed, the good blacks got the hell out of the ghetto as fast as they could. See Prince George’s county, Maryland.

  194. @anon

    does it have to include jobs where hiring based on group membership instead of competence can get many people killed?

    Extrapolate from this to the future of your nation.

  195. @Dave Pinsen

    Also helped to keep the workers down. One corporation after another was wrecked and looted by LBO types who then walked away with the equity. Feature, not a bug, they tell us. Who might these people be?

    • Replies: @snorlax
  196. @anon

    All the stories I have seen about this are what a great guy the fighter pilot was. No information on what happened, and no word about, or sympathy for, the five white guys on the tanker who died when he crashed into it.

    The military is being very tight lipped about the whole thing.

  197. @Crawfurdmuir

    A thoughtful post, but you seem to have swallowed whole the notion of the “Asian Quota” and use SAT scores in support of that. Grades and test scores (where Asians tend to excel) are not (and should not be) the only metrics used in college admissions. Asians (and Jews) are wildly over-represented at most of our nation’s top colleges.

  198. Boethiuss says:

    Steve’s Compromise is a small but important cog of the Reverse Sailer Thesis in action.

    Way back when, say 2004 or earlier, Steve figured out the Sailer Thesis. That is, contra any idea of an Emerging Democratic Majority, elections in the United States are determined by white voters, especially in terms of bourgeois family aspirations. Or to put in another way, if white Americans are motivated to build good families and use their votes in furtherance of that ambition, they will generate the margins enough to outvote the vote buying schemes of the Democrats.

    That was then, and it was a radical idea then, but now that has at least to some extent sunk into the conventional wisdom, for us, for the other side and the punditocracy in general.

    Now, under Trump, the Sailer Thesis is showing its age and we’re seeing the beginnings of the Reverse Sailer Thesis. For the Trump era, and specifically the 2018 election season, the minority vote is becoming less important, but the GOP is losing its advantage among white voters.

    For us on the GOP/conservative side, this is not at all a good development. The logic of the Sailer Thesis on the whole favors the Republicans. The logic of the Reverse Sailer Thesis simply doesn’t.

    That’s why the Republicans desperately need a new party leader. The idea isn’t to repudiate Trump. Trump is a vulgar person but his official actions haven’t necessarily been bad or wrong. Instead the idea is to transcend Trump: Trump might have been the best answer for his time, but this is no longer his time any more.

    The people who are still propping up Trump at this point are buying into the stupid atmospherics surrounding Omarosa, Stormy Daniels and the like when the American voters and voting to get rid of the whole thing.

    As it relates to the OP, the minority vote is less homogenous than it was before. In fact, Trump has actually improved the standing of Republicans among a number of them. And in a vacuum, that ought to be good news for Republicans. But we’re not in a vacuum, and whatever gains he’s making for us among minorities aren’t enough to help.

  199. Jack D says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    The Ellis Island immigrants (and especially the Jews) constituted vast untapped seedlings of human potential and when these seedlings were transplanted onto America’s Magic Dirt, they flourished. (You can argue whether this flourishing helped or hurt the plants that were already there, but you can’t argue that they flourished – billionaires, Nobel Prize winners, physicists, etc. – the results are indisputable).

    So it is a natural mistake, I suppose, especially if you buy into the pleasant notion that “all men are created equal” to think that if you bring in a different group (Mexicans, Africans, etc.) and give them the same education and opportunities, the results will be the same as they were last time.

  200. Hail says: • Website
    @newrouter

    where’s the Negro Einstein, Fermi, Tesla et al?

    There might be more, but racist Whites like George Zimmerman keep gunning them down over things like skittles disputes, before they reach their best years. Sad.

  201. Philosopher: “I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Mind?”

    Philosopher: “I’m for Affirmative Action. Can You Change My Diaper?”

  202. @newrouter

    …where’s the Negro Einstein, Fermi, Tesla et al?

    Found the Tesla for you:

  203. @snorlax

    Ethiopians and Nubians (i.e. Sudanese) are much more closely related to Arabs than Bantus.

    Somalia is in the Arab League. And that sounds about right, if you know Arabs.

  204. anon. says:
    @Almost Missouri

    AA at Harvard can’t be more than a couple hundred. They now let some in to field sports teams, I gotta guess that a lot of them check multiple boxes. Harvard isn’t a big thing in African American culture. Id bet that USC snags a few Harvard admits (or potential admits).

    But racial preferences at the DMV? AA in entry level government jobs is a big deal. Actually, in my state, a lot of routine stuff is now done by mail/on line and there are lightly used offices (and the service isn’t bad).

    I can’t believe any of it is is remotely transparent to blacks. I don’t know if any local jobs have ever been awarded on merit, It is more like a tacit quota system. Everyone knows that the DMV clerks are AA and people mostly don’t care.

    Delivery of government services to blacks seems like a place for informal quotas to me. Outside of government, I imagine that AA doesn’t register. Entire neighborhoods of Black youths would qualify for Harvard preferences if they could meet the non trivial prerequisites. Meanwhile, jobs that are local and plausible have more than filled their quota.

    I read an article in the New Yorker years ago about an average black kid who was desperately trying to prove he had a Cherokee Grandmother and was looking for family bibles that potentially proved it. In order to finance junior college, which was filled with diversity.

  205. @ThreeCranes

    No piling on. I’ve repented already in response to snorlax.

  206. Anon[215] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    The average admixture of American’s who self-identify as black is 25 percent, so a 75 percent requirement would disqualify half.

    With the current immigration system there is nothing that would prevent anyone “separated” from the U.S. from walking back in. You’d have to have a wall, a withdrawal from internation refugee conventions, and you’d have to disqualify the separees from any sort of non-immigrant visa, including tourist or medical or spouse.

  207. Not far from Notre Dame, football still builds character in Indiana.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/12/10/pregnant-student-dead-football-player-charged/2273118002/

    Check out the mascot– will Neanderthals demand its change?


    https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/7ca5777018bc1b02e833e9705dd358c9

  208. snorlax says:
    @istevefan

    1. “White supremacists” are a super-powerful force who dominate the country and the world, control all aspects of society and levers of government, cause every social ill and rule with an unbreakable iron fist.

    2. Armed with Twitter, we can and will permanently ruin the life of any white person who makes a mildly edgy statement to the effect of “it’s okay to be white.”

    • Replies: @Hail
  209. @Jack D

    So you’re saying that being treated like 2nd class citizens in the country of their birth may have been net beneficial to blacks? In that case, you won’t mind it when you get treated as a 2nd class citizen in your own country, I guess.

    Dunno, Jack. Was it bad for our people that in the old country we were (mostly) prevented from farming, forcing us to go into professions that selected for literacy and numeracy?

    Was it bad for the Japanese that God didn’t endow them with the bountiful natural resources He gave to the Congolese?

    Sure it’s bad if in addition to being a second class citizen, you’re also subjected to regular rape and pillage. But that wasn’t a significant part of African Americans’ experience (i.e. after the initial act of separating them from the natural treasures of central Africa).

    • Replies: @BigDickNick
    , @Jack D
  210. Hail says: • Website
    @snorlax

    “White supremacists” are a super-powerful force who dominate the country and the world

    Someone ought to consider writing a letter to Wikipedia, kindly asking them to include the above on the following page:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  211. @Saxon

    This isn’t personal to me. We’re discussing the more and less persuasive arguments in favor of Affirmative Action from a dispassionate position.

    • Replies: @Saxon
  212. @Paleo Liberal

    By the Warren standard, we are here too. There is no honor among these thieves – take them for all they’re worth.

  213. @Alec Leamas

    Tells you all you need to know about who exactly is oppressing whom when you put it that way.

  214. @Achmed E. Newman

    It is a shorter version of the above and it is still the 12th highest Reader Pick:

    Steve Sailer
    AmericaDec. 10
    Times Pick
    But, by Professor Gutting’s logic, why should recent immigrant groups also get racial/ethnic preferences in United State, when their ancestors weren’t burdened by the sins of American history? Why does getting off a plane from Buenos Aires make you eligible for low interest SBA minority development loans and government contracting breaks in the USA?

    A reasonable compromise might be to preserve affirmative action for the historic victim groups of American history — blacks descended from American slaves (e.g., Michelle Obama, but not Barack Obama) and for American Indians; but junk preferences for groups largely descended from recent immigrants.

    6 Replies70 RecommendShare

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  215. @Jack D

    “No society can function based on cold dry truth all the time”

    I dunno. I’ve thought this too sometimes. But the ancient Persians–superpower of their era–did pretty well with a culture that emphasized truth rather than evasive accommodation. There are other such examples. Indeed, I tend to think that favoring truth over polite evasions is characteristic of all societies on the upswing. But of course, “on the upswing” might be our real problem.

    In any case, if we start making exceptions from truth: “this area must be protected from truth, and also this area must be protected from truth, and gee whaddya know now also this area”, etc. etc., where does it end? As the Aff Act experience shows, it doesn’t. It just expands malignantly forever until either it is killed or the host dies. Hence the unpleasant but apt cancer metaphor.

    “Blacks want to (need to, for reasons of personal pride) have it both ways”

    Change “need to” to “like to” and I’ll agree. Unfortunately, the rest of society is all too willing to accede to whatever the latest black “like” is, irrespective of merit.

    In the 100 years between Emancipation, when slavery ended, and the Civil Rights era, when our modern “polite” fictions began, blacks actually did pretty well for themselves. Their families were intact, their material well being improved, their crime rate was (relatively) low, and crucially, they accomplished this mostly by their own effort. Since the “Civil Rights” era though, which went forward in a miasma of race-propaganda, all these things have gone into reverse. Families are broken, material improvement has slowed or reversed, crime has skyrocketed, and crucially, what largess blacks receive now disproportionately comes from the benignity of the white man rather than from their own efforts. So back when there was no polite fiction of absolute biological equivalence, blacks did pretty well. In today’s regime of polite lies, most black prosperity is Potemkin.

    “There is a reason that AA is conducted under a blanket of night and fog – it is an inherently shameful thing and cannot withstand the light of day”

    Agree, but the source of the shame is simply its obvious falsehood. Polite civilization-enabling hypocrisy isn’t really that shameful.

    “cannot withstand the light of day given our constitutional and philosophical imperatives of equality.”

    Sort of picking nits now, but as you are no doubt aware, there was no “constitutional imperative” of equality until the 14th Amendment, and even then, it was only “equal protection”, not equality-of-outcome. The equality-of-outcome that now comes under the “Equality” rubric was not in the original jurisprudence. Equality-of-outcome is of only very recent and extra-constitutional vintage. It was retconned into the 14th Amendment to create a false pedigree.

  216. Rosie says:
    @Anon

    According to this logic, wouldn’t it mean that American land was taken from the Chinese?

    You answered your own question:

    If institutions built …

  217. L Woods says:

    “Social peace.” LOL. Boomers.

  218. Hibernian says:

    “That’s a legislative decision.”

    All AA decisions starting with, and including, the establishment of AA are quasi-judicial or quasi-legislative decisions by bureaucrats in the Executive branch.

  219. @william munny

    Good thing for Steve I’m not a subscriber, I’m sorry to have to say.

    Oh, and thanks for pasting that in.

  220. Svigor says:

    Of course, virtually nobody favors this. One reason is because the Supreme Court has over the years created the rationale that affirmative action is reparations to blacks, it’s instead for the benefit of whites: they prosper from Vitamin D!

    It’s funny how only this dubious “benefit” is justified on the basis of being good for whites; does anyone know any other gov’t policy that is justified on the basis of being good for whites – specifically whites?

    Because I don’t. I’ve done a great deal of thinking about what’s good for whites, and spent much of my life advocating for what I think is good for whites. And I’ve read a lot about the intersection of policy and race in America, over the years. And I can’t think of any other gov’t policy that’s justified on the basis of being good for whites in particular.

  221. @Anon

    “Yeshiva educated Tim Wise”

    Wise has one Jewish grandparent. He has never been near a Yeshiva.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  222. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    A kind of top-down unity paradox operates in society. Both higher-ups and lower-downs feel contempt for the Middle.

    The Middle is made up of people who believe in Rule of Law. They are ‘petite bourgeoisie’. They care about maintaining their front lawns, picking up garbage, and obeying rules. They believe or want to believe that society is governed by rules that apply to all equally. And for the most part, the Middle Class ‘walks the talk’. Middle class is(or should be) reasonably sane and educated. Its folks understand why Rule of Law is important and why everyone must do their share. They are ABOUT Rule of Law, about standing in line and paying for stuff and suffering consequences of bad actions.

    In contrast, the lower-downs are AGAINST Rule of Law. Too many of them are too stupid to understand the importance of the Rule. Or they are too pathological to care about right and wrong. They admire outlaws and criminals. They feel and act like animals.

    Given that the higher-ups are more intelligent, more educated, and wealthier than the Middle, one might think that the elites are even better version of the Middle. And perhaps, there was some of this in Protestant Elites in places in UK, Germany, and US of yesteryear. Protestantism emphasized moderation and a spartan outlook. Also, its beliefs and values were the great equalizer between rulers and ruled. Before Protestant churches become decadent or cucked(or just trivial), they instilled elites and masses with serious creeds and values.

    But the natural tendency of the higher-ups is to snub the Rule as well. Why? Because for them to rule as they really please, they must trample on the golden rule. Sure, they will support Rule of Law and Fairness when such suit them(or as a social good for the suckers), but they are prone to pull all sorts of tricks to get what they want.

    The difference between the Middle and the Upper is that the Middle is reasonably content with ‘enough’. So, if Middle people have good enough jobs and nice enough house, they are okay and don’t expect more. In contrast, the Uppers are far more ambitious and grandiose. It could be their emotional psychopathic narcissistic nature or arrogance from sense of being smarter or more imaginative. Because they always want MORE(wealth, power, honor, fame, prestige, etc), they hate any obstacle that stands in the way of accumulating more of whatever they want.
    But because they are too educated and refined and urbane, they don’t go AGAINST the rule like the lower elements do. Instead, they find all sorts of ways to go AROUND the Rule. If bribing politicians is illegal, give them $100,000s for speeches. Gain control of the media and cook up BS like ‘hate speech’ to shut down people. Use whore politicians to bail out banks that acted like gangsters. Use Deep Media of War Department and Big Media to justify wars on basis of ‘spreading democracy’. Use the mask of ‘privatization’ to economically loot a nation like Russia.

    In GOODFELLAS, we see goombas who stick up truck drivers and steal with guns and knives. And they blow all their cash on stupid shi*.
    In WOLF OF WALL STREET, we see guys who become insiders in finance and break every rule. Gangsters occupy the underworld, and finance guys occupy the uberworld, but their attitude is the similar. The Rule gets in their way, so find ways to go against it or around it.
    Same with Madoff as played by Deniro in THE WIZARD OF LIES.

    Now, the guys in WOLF OF WALL STREET are something of anomaly. Clever hucksters who found a shortcut to the big times. One might argue most people in Wall Street are not that crazy. Fair enough. But given the behavior of men like Soros and Big Banks in recent yrs, they don’t seem to care much about the Rule of Law. And Neocon elites with immense pull in Deep State seem to feel contempt for anything resembling honesty, truth, and integrity as mere boy scout kiddie stuff. Max Boot is an elite academic pundit but really thinks and acts like a deep state gangster.

    Whether it’s nihilism of low thugs or nihilism of high lords, there is a perverse pride in that they don’t have to play by the rules. The lower elements figure they are too fast and furious to play by the rules. Why not just grab and run? And the higher elements figure that they are too smart and awesome to play by rules that apply to middle class suckers. (One reason why Jews felt contempt for Germans was the latter believed in standing in line and following the rules. What may seem like virtue to some look like dimwit stuff to others.)

    So, the middle class stands in line. The lower elements sneak in through the backdoor, and higher elements have VIP passes and don’t have to wait for anything.

    So, it doesn’t surprise me that some elite academic is for affirmative action. It’s just a middle finger to the Middle Class. The uppers live by their own rules, and the lowers live by their own rules. It’s the Middle that must pay for both. Of course, the upper member is too clever and smart(and too superior) to lose his OWN position to the lowers. If anything, elite nihilism may romanticize lower nihilism as a kindred spirit against ‘boring petite bourgeois’ values.

    But what happens when the Middle also erodes and loses trust in the system and says hell with Rule? What is the rule in a world of ‘gay marriage’? What are middle class values when 80% of Americans support ‘gay marriage’ or watch the Kartrashians with their kids, or when Tattoos become the norm even among middle class folks to the point where employers must now tolerate people with body graffiti all over their bodies? What happens when the Middle Class goes the way of BREAKING BAD? Or when gambling is a family values entertainment and when kids of middle class parents grow up emulating Lena Dunham and other trash?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  223. @International Jew

    “Dunno, Jack. Was it bad for our people that in the old country we were (mostly) prevented from farming, forcing us to go into professions that selected for literacy and numeracy?”

    I don’t know that there is a lot of historical support for the idea jews couldn’t have normal jobs on a wide scale. Money lending was simply more attractive.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  224. anon[293] • Disclaimer says:
    @Richard S

    And none of the descendants of those slaves would have ever been born. As individuals, every black American with slave ancestry owes their very existence to one of their ancestors having been enslaved and shipped to the New World. If, for example, Michelle Obama’s slave ancestors have been left behind in Africa they would have found different mates – if they mated at all – had different children, and produced an entirely new line of descendants. It’s not like there would be a Michelle Obama doppleganger living in modern Ouagadougou in a alt-history timeline. The Universe really was not waiting for her, or Barry.

    But most would agree with “Thank God my granddaddy got on that boat.” Perhaps time that Teh Genius got to work on a case for reparations for descendants of those poor Africans who were not invited on an all-inclusive cruise to the Americas.

  225. Jack D says:
    @Kaganovitch

    Please stop confusing us with the truth. And can’t Tulane be said to be a yeshiva of sorts? Don’t people sit there?

  226. Jack D says:
    @BigDickNick

    In the pre-industrial world there were no “jobs”. Jews were banned from farming, banned from the trade guilds. Not that money lending was the sole remaining or even the dominant occupation.

    • Replies: @snorlax
  227. @Anon

    You hit the nail on the head: price discrimination. That means getting everyone to pay as much as you can squeeze out of them. Which means you give no breaks to nobody no time.

    I’ll buy your argument that the presence of high-paying passengers stimulated airplane R&D, plus economies of scale, making possible more fuel-efficient planes, which resulted in lower prices (though only to the most price-sensitive customers — remember the part about price discrimination). But that doesn’t apply to colleges because there’s been no technical progress to speak of in college teaching. If anything, college teaching has become less efficient over time: professor teaching loads at the leading schools are half what they were before the 1960s, and professors are a smaller share of the college budget as administrators have proliferated.

  228. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    One reason why Jews felt contempt for Germans was the latter believed in standing in line and following the rules. What may seem like virtue to some look like dimwit stuff to others.

    Eastern Jews used to think that German Jews were just as uptight and rule bound as other Germans. There was an entire genre of “Yekke” jokes making fun of German Jew’s excessive inflexibility (German Jews were called “Yekkes” in Yiddish for obscure reasons). Here is one:

    A Yekke decides to take the train from Berlin to Dresden. He books his trip weeks in advance and tells the ticket agent, “There’s only one thing I care about. I should be facing the same direction as the train is moving.”

    On the day of the trip, he arrives at the station an hour before departure. But when he boards the train, he is dismayed to find that his seat is facing in the wrong direction – toward the back of the train.

    As soon as he gets to Dresden, he telephones the ticket agency to complain. The agent apologizes several times, and says, “Why didn’t you ask the person sitting opposite you if he’d be willing to switch seats?”

    “I would have,” said the Yekke, “but I was out of luck. The seat opposite mine was empty.”

  229. Jack D says:
    @International Jew

    Was it bad for the Japanese that God didn’t endow them with the bountiful natural resources He gave to the Congolese?

    For the most part yes – they would have been better off with more resources. It’s like when Tevye’s socialist son-in-law tells him that money is a curse. Tevye replies, “may God afflict me with this curse. And may I never recover.” I’m sure that Japanese would love to be “cursed” with rich oil and mineral reserves.

    I think it is just one of God’s little jokes that he endows undeserving primitives like the Congolese and Saudis with rich natural resources and gives none to the clever and hardworking Japanese.

    Of course, greedy men played an even bigger joke on America – God endowed it with BOTH rich natural resources and hard working people but the greedy upper classes wanted FREE labor and imported black slaves.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  230. snorlax says:
    @Jack D

    Contrary to popular belief, Jews were never banned from farming, which would be nonsensical as that was the lowliest profession. In certain countries at certain times Jews were banned from owning land, which is not at all the same thing.

    In Ireland under British Protestant rule, Catholics were banned from owning land. Pretty much everywhere in Europe, it was initially the case that only nobles could own land, a restriction which was gradually relaxed over time. The disfavored class could—and the vast bulk were forced to—farm as tenants or serfs.

    Also contrary to popular belief, guilds rarely held legal monopolies. If you opened a tannery without first joining the tanners’ guild, nobody would stop you. Most guilds did have, due to network effects, a monopoly on vocational education, so an independent craftsman would have to figure it out for himself. Luckily, I hear Jews are good at that sort of thing.

  231. Bliss says:
    @snorlax

    Ethiopians and Nubians (i.e. Sudanese) are much more closely related to Arabs than Bantus.

    The native, paternal Haplogroup of all Africa (North, South, East, West) is E. Bantus and African-Americans share this Haplogroup with Egyptians, Ethiopians and Sudanese. The Arab/Semitic native Haplogroup is J.

    The “Nsibidi” of the Igbos, the highest-achieving West Africans, is considered “proto-writing,” (it isn’t related to a spoken language) not writing, and the earliest confirmed inscriptions are from the 15th century A.D.

    You are off by a millennium:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_systems_of_Africa

    Nsibidi… is a system of symbols indigenous to what is now southeastern Nigeria that is apparently an ideographic script, though there have been suggestions that it includes logographic elements.[3] The symbols are at least several centuries old: early forms appeared on excavated pottery as well as what are most likely ceramic stools and headrests from the Calabar region, with a range of dates from 400 to 1400 CE.

    • Replies: @snorlax
  232. Bliss says:
    @snorlax

    Northern Europe was too cold for Bronze or Iron Age agriculture and so was very sparsely populated during that time period

    Nonsense. Julius Caesar killed a million Celts and enslaved another million during the Gallic Wars:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Wars

    Then there were the millions of Germanics who wouldn’t be civilized until many centuries later. Despite their large numbers the Northern Europeans were incapable of creating a civilization worthy of the name on their own.

  233. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Homer Plessy, not Dred Scott.

  234. ATBOTL says:

    I notice in the comments here, there is a lack moral outrage over anti-white discrimination. Comments debating the best way to do anti-white discrimination are sickening. This is boomer thinking.

    We need to be outraged that our group is being hurt. We need to be furious and work up the political will to stop it. Comments like many of those on this thread are the problem. Anti-white discrimination is a moral atrocity and must be fought with fanatic intensity. There is no place for acceptance, seeing the good side of it or discussing how to improve it. It must stop. Immediately, totally and permanently.

    Lack of an emotional gut level reaction to anti-white policies by older white conservatives is the problem.

  235. Anonymous[246] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Gary Gutting and his wife Anastasia have at least three children. Daughter Tasha Gutting Tyska Grant (born 1969) graduated from Notre Dame in 1992. She is an historical novelist who writes under the pseudonym Tasha Alexander. Her son Alexander Tyska, or someone with the same name and age, was on the Texas A&M sailing team and competed in two regattas.

    Son Thomas Michael Gutting (born 1978) has a BA from Johns Hopkins and a law degree from the University of Houston. He currently works in a Houston law firm specializing in “Mass Tort and Toxic Tort and Environmental practices”.

    Son Edward Michael Gutting (born 1972) attended the University of Chicago and earned a PhD in classics from Princeton. He led the classics program at Virginia Wesleyan College for a while, then was an assistant classics professor at the University of Mississippi from 2003 until 2011, when he became a “trailing spouse” and followed his wife, history professor Angela Hornsby Gutting, to Missouri State University. Edward was initially in MSU’s history department and later placed as an instructor in the classics department.

    Edward Gutting is currently awaiting his January 2019 trial for the 2016 homicide of retired MSU history professor Marc Cooper. Cooper and his wife Nancy were sitting in their home at 7:45pm when Edward broke in through the back door, chased Cooper through the house and stabbed him to death. Nancy was cut several times trying to save her husband.

    Cooper retired as Missouri State University history professor in 2014. His position had not been filled and he had spoken with Angela Hornsby Gutting about her husband Edward filling the position. On the day Cooper was killed, MSU changed the area of instruction for Cooper’s former position leaving Edward no longer qualified.

    Edward Gutting had been arrested in Mississippi for hitting a teen who whistled across a restaurant at his own female friend. Edward was also arrested for inhaling laughing gas while sitting in a car with his wife. In Missouri, Edward was arrested for driving while intoxicated. After the stabbings, Edward told police that he was drunk.

    Edward and his wife Angela, a black woman, filed for bankruptcy in 2013.

  236. @Jack D

    For the most part yes – they would have been better off with more resources.

    Hmm. Then what about the theory that a harsh climate selected for teamwork and personal responsibility, while the tropical African paradise made it possible for women to feed themselves and their children without help from the men who were thus freed to while away their days hanging out drinking and brawling? I find that theory pretty convincing.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  237. Jack D says:
    @International Jew

    Then what about the theory that a harsh climate selected for teamwork and personal responsibility,

    Exactly – this explains why the Eskimos (oh, sorry, Inuit) were the first to split the atom and the Lapps were the first to industrialize.

    Or maybe there can be too much of a “good” thing, including harsh climate and lack of resources?

    • Replies: @International Jew
  238. snorlax says:
    @Bliss

    You are off by a millennium

    Yes, I read the Wikipedia article too. My link is to the source Wikipedia cites for that claim, which Wikipedia is exaggerating. Nevertheless, even assuming the fifth century A.D. timeframe for Igbo proto-writing, Germanic actual writing precedes it by between 900 and 600 years, north Germanic actual writing by 400 years, and European actual writing (Linear A) by 3000.

    Julius Caesar killed a million Celts and enslaved another million during the Gallic Wars

    According to Plutarch and Appian. As a general rule of thumb, you can divide any figure a Roman historian provides for enemy numeric strength by 20 or so. Taking those figures at face value, any civilization that could support a population, much less an army, measured in the millions would be easily among the most advanced in the world at the time.

    And the Gauls had written language since around 600 B.C., contemporary with Ethiopians and 1000-2000 years before Igbo proto-writing.

    Haplogroup

    The most common paternal haplogroup among Ethiopians is E-M215 (E1b1b) which they share with most North Africans, 10-30% of Southern Europeans and Jews, and almost no Bantus (who likely got it via East or North African admixture).

    [MORE]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Ethiopia#Genetic_studies

    Genetic studies

    Autosomal DNA

    Tishkoff et al. (2009) identified fourteen ancestral population clusters which correlate with self-described ethnicity and shared cultural and/or linguistic properties in Africa in what was the largest autosomal study of the continent to date. The Burji, Konso and Beta Israel were sampled from Ethiopia. The Afroasiatic speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the “Cushitic” cluster, 6% in the “Saharan/Dogon” cluster, 5% in the “Niger Kordofanian” cluster, 3% each in the “Nilo-Saharan” and “Chadic Saharan” cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC’s) found in Sub-Saharan Africa. The “Cushitic” cluster was also deemed “closest to the non-African AACs, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans into Saharan and Eastern Africa.”

    Wilson et al. (2001), an autosomal DNA study based on cluster analysis that looked at a combined sample of Amhara and Oromo examining a ”single” enzyme variants: Norwegians and Papua New Guineans, and 6% with Chinese.

    Paternal lineages
    A composite look at most YDNA studies done so far reveals that, out of a total of 459 males sampled from Ethiopia, approximately 58% of Y-chromosome haplotypes were found to belong to Haplogroup E, of which 71% (41% of total) were characterized by one of its further downstream sub lineage known as E1b1b, while the remainder were mostly characterized by Haplogroup E1b1(x E1b1b,E1b1a), and to a lesser extent Haplogroup E2. With respect to E1b1b, some studies have found that it exists at its highest level among the Oromo, where it represented 62.8% of the haplotypes, while it was found at 35.4% among the Amhara, other studies however have found an almost equal representation of Haplogroup E1b1b at approximately 57% in both the Oromo and the Amhara. The haplogroup (as its predecessor E1b1) is thought to have originated in Ethiopia or elsewhere in the E1b1b1a (M78), which arose later in north-eastern Africa and then back-migrated to eastern Africa.

    Haplogroup J has been found at a frequency of approximately 18% in Ethiopians, with a higher prevalence among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35%, of which about 94% (17% of total) is of the type J1, while 6% (1% of total) is of J2 type. On the other hand, 26% of the individuals sampled in the Arsi control portion of Moran et al. (2004) were found to belong to Haplogroup J.

    Another fairly prevalent lineage in Ethiopia belongs to Haplogroup A, occurring at a frequency of about 17% within Ethiopia, it is almost all characterized by its downstream sub lineage of A3b2 (M13). Restricted to Africa, and mostly found along the Rift Valley from Ethiopia to Haplogroup A represents the deepest branch in the Human Y- Chromosome phylogeny.

    Finally, Haplogroup T at approximately 4% and Haplogroup B at approximately 3%, make up the remainder of the Y-DNA Haplogroups found within Ethiopia.

    Maternal lineages
    The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%). There is controversy surrounding their origins as either native or a possible ancient back migration into Ethiopia from Asia.

    Passarino et al. (1998) suggested that:

    Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. Conversely, the Niger–Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females.

    While there is debate among the scientific community of what exactly constitutes “Caucasoid gene flow”, the same study further stated:

    Indeed, Ethiopians do not seem to result only from a simple combination of proto-Niger–Congo and Middle Eastern genes. Their African component cannot be completely explained by that of present-day Niger–Congo speakers, and it is quite different from that of the Khoisan. Thus, a portion of the current Ethiopian gene pool may be the product of in situ differentiation from an ancestral gene pool.”

    Scott et al. (2005) similarly observed that the Ethiopian population is almost equally divided between individuals that carry Eurasian maternal lineages, and those that belong to African clades. They describe the presence of Eurasian clades in the country as sequences that “are thought to be found in high numbers in Ethiopia either as a result of substantial gene flow into Ethiopia from Eurasia (Chen et al., 2000; Richards et al., 2003), or as a result of having undergone several branching events in demic diffusion, acting as founder lineages for non-African populations”. The researchers further found no association between regional origin of subjects or language family (Semitic/Cushitic) and their mitochondrial type:

    The haplogroup distribution amongst all subjects (athletes and controls) from different geographical regions of Ethiopia is displayed in Table 3. As can be seen graphically in Fig. 3, the mtDNA haplogroup distribution of each region is similar, with all regions displaying similar proportions of African ‘L’ haplogroups (Addis Ababa: 59%, Arsi: 50%, Shewa: 44%, Other: 57%). No association was found between regional origin of subjects and their mitochondrial type (v2=8.5, 15 df, P=0.9). Similarly, the mtDNA haplogroup distribution of subjects (athletes and controls) speaking languages from each family is shown in Table 3. Again there was no association between language family and mitochondrial type (v2=5.4, 5 df, P=0.37). As can be seen in Fig. 4, the haplogroup distributions of each language family are again very similar.

    In addition, Musilová et al. (2011) observed significant maternal ties between its Ethiopian and other Horn African samples with its Western Asian samples; particularly in terms of the HV1b mtDNA haplogroup. The authors noted:

    “Detailed phylogeography of HV1 sequences shows that more recent demographic upheavals likely contributed to their spread from West Arabia to East Africa, a finding concordant with archaeological records suggesting intensive maritime trade in the Red Sea from the sixth millennium BC onwards.”

    According to Černý et al. (2008), many Ethiopians also share specific maternal lineages with areas in Yemen and other parts of Northeast Africa. The authors indicate that:

    “The most frequent haplotype in west coastal Yemen is 16126–16362, which is found not only in the Ethiopian highlands but also in Somalia, lower Egypt and at especially high frequency in the Nubians. The Tihama share some West Eurasian haplotypes with Africans, e.g. J and K with Ethiopians, Somali and Egyptians.”

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Bliss
  239. “A reasonable compromise based on this logic might be to preserve affirmative action for the historic victim groups of American history — blacks descended from American slaves (e.g., Michelle Obama, but not Barack Obama) and for American Indians; but junk preferences for groups largely descended from recent immigrants.”

    Those two have offspring, at least I assume Michelle’s spawn are Barack’s, so how is that supposed to work?

    And I doubt that Michelle Obama’s children are much oppressed by being “objects of either uneasy suspicion or patronizing sympathy” compared with your average white kid, so… explain the rationale for screwing over the latter to give them an advantage, again, because I’m not seeing it.

    We’re talking about government here. Any government which treats you badly compared with others is asking for you to support its overthrow. Period.

  240. Saxon says:
    @Alec Leamas

    We could relate it to form of tribute that’s being paid to people who’ve literally invaded us. A sort of modern Danegeld, except that these people aren’t strong or intelligent in much any way like the Danes likely were when they did that way back when, and we really don’t have much to fear from these people if they actually get violent over not getting our stuff redistributed to them in a way that would justify using violence in self-defense.

    In any case, a “peace” is not really worth keeping if it just leads inexorably towards your own destruction. I’d rather rip the bandage off and get all of this over with, but there are a lot of gutless cowards who would rather let things just get worse and worse and pass the problems on to the next generation(s).

  241. @Jack D

    Not much scope for advancement when you live on ice.

    Surviving in England, back in the paleolithic, was challenging enough.

  242. Never heard of Gary Gutting before this, but now I’ve seen his name a second time. He wrote the (not quite voluminous) volume on Foucault for Oxford U. Press’s “A Very Short Introduction” series. I don’t think he means the pendulum guy, either.

    The front pages list about 200 in this series. Authors familiar to Americans include Roger Scruton (Spinoza, Kant, beauty), Peter Singer (Marx, Hegel), and Germaine Greer (Shakespeare). Britons would recognize many of the others, I presume.

    Is this series trustworthy? The particular book I have is on a technical subject pretty hard to fake, so it’s not the best example to gauge the other 200.

  243. Bliss says:
    @snorlax

    even assuming the fifth century A.D. timeframe for Igbo proto-writing, Germanic actual writing precedes it by between 900 and 600 years, north Germanic actual writing by 400 years

    Where is your evidence for these dates? Runes are the earliest evidence of germanic writing and the following shows that you are off once again, by many centuries:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runes

    The earliest runic inscriptions date from around 150 AD. The characters were generally replaced by the Latin alphabet as the cultures that had used runes underwent Christianisation, by approximately 700 AD in central Europe and 1100 AD in northern Europe………The three best-known runic alphabets are the Elder Futhark (around 150–800 AD), the Anglo-Saxon Futhorc (400–1100 AD), and the Younger Futhark (800–1100 AD).

    Nubians, Ethiopians, Egyptians, Berbers etc were writing in their own scripts long before that. The point is this: Northern Europeans were late to the civilization game. Very late. And civilization was imposed on them by the Romans from the South. They were unable to achieve that feat on their own. Since this forum is dominated by HBDers, what’s their explanation? Is there a civilization gene that was missing in the nordics? Did they gain that gene from their conquerors and civilizers from the South?

    Inquiring minds want to know…

  244. Bliss says:
    @snorlax

    The most common paternal haplogroup among Ethiopians is E-M215 (E1b1b) which they share with most North Africans, 10-30% of Southern Europeans and Jews, and almost no Bantus (who likely got it via East or North African admixture).

    Haplogroup E-M215 (E1b1b) originated in subsaharan Africa, in the Horn of Africa. It is found in all parts of Africa. It is an African Haplogroup. If you find it in Europe or elsewhere consider it historical evidence of african presence there in the past:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA)

    https://www.somalispot.com/attachments/3498/

    The other major African Haplogroup is E-V38 (E1b1a) which is closely related to the above E-M215 (E1b1b) also originated in subsaharan Africa (Horn of Africa) and is also found all across Africa. It is the most prevalent African Haplogroup. This is the Haplogroup of the Pharaohs of the Ramesside Period of Ancient Egypt. It is also the main Haplogroup found in African origin males in the Americas. Here’s a list of the main Haplogroup of each country:

    http://atlasdna.xyvy.info/Haplogroup-Map-Interactive/majority-haplogroup-country-map

  245. Anonymous[284] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    Someone ought to consider writing a letter to Wikipedia, kindly asking them to include the above on the following page:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes

    More pertinently, you can add this entry yourself to Wiki alternative infogalactic.com which is a less pozzed version of Wikipedia.

  246. Natufian says:

    Haplogroup E-M215 (E1b1b) originated in subsaharan Africa, in the Horn of Africa. It is found in all parts of Africa. It is an African Haplogroup. If you find it in Europe or elsewhere consider it historical evidence of african presence there in the past

    DNA analysis of ancient human fossils actually indicates that both E1b1b and E1b1a likely originated outside of Africa, in Asia. The oldest occurrences of the haplogroup E have recently been observed in Asia (including E1b1a), in a paper published earlier this year:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13904-Central-and-South-Asian-DNA-Paper

    Haplogroup E therefore appears to be an old Asian paternal lineage, which entered Africa at an early date. It was probably introduced by the first speakers of the Afro-Asiatic language family. Through interbreeding, the clade then appears to have been picked up by neighboring hunter-gatherer populations (the first Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan speakers), who instead originally carried the archaic A and B paternal haplogroups.

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