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Patrice O'Neal: Why White People Like "Creep" by Radiohead
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But I’m a creep
I’m a weirdo
What the hell am I doing here?
I don’t belong here

Radiohead’s “Creep” ranks with Nirvana’s “Smells like Teen Spirit” near the summit of 1990s grunge rock blond male self-loathing:

I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now, entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
Yeah, hey, yay

The late comedian Patrice O’Neal analyzed “Creep’s” appeal to white people:

As O’Neal points out, the moment in “Creep” that speaks most deeply to the white soul is the stuttering sound on the electric guitar at the beginning of the chorus (0:57). To me, it sounds like somebody trying to start a gasoline-powered lawn mower. Fairways don’t mow themselves.

An important bit of advice by O’Neal for nonwhites trying to learn how to deal with whites: “You cannot meet passive aggression with aggression.”

Microaggressions are a hallmark of a high civilization — e.g., the dialogue in Jane Austen’s or Evelyn Waugh’s novels — so they are particularly irritating to people worried that they come from a lower civilizational level, inciting them to respond with macroaggressions.

 
    []
  1. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    The odd thing is that Radiohead ran away from that song, and from the whole genre, and started making weird, experimental music. All down hill after The Bends.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uptown Resident
    Or, most of what they did before The Bends was derivative and noisy, and their later albums are increasingly original and musical.

    I do like "Creep," though, mostly for Thom Yorke's shockingly gorgeous tenor voice.

    Speaking off the clash between white tortured artistry and black bravado, Girl Talk does a really hilarious mashup of Thom Yorke's climax in "Creep" with Russell Tyrone Jones (Ol' Dirty Bastard)'s "Shimmy Shimmy Ya." Yorke is crooning "She's running out of here" verse while Jones bellows "Ooh baby I like it raw." It's amazing. Begins around 2:50. The contrast speaks volumes about some important group differences in romantic attitudes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka3GznTXur8
    , @grey enlightenment
    I guess that's the nice thing about getting a hit, it gives you the resources to do the style that you really like, even if ti doens't make as much money.
    , @Robert Ford
    yeah, they basically don't play it at shows any more because yorke doesn't like it - he renamed it "Crap."
    , @Front toward enemy
    I would say mostly uphill after the Bends. Amnesiac and Kid A are their best imho.
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  2. The cold snap that’s covering the South right now has reminded me how much whites value introspection in art and music. Excuse me while I proceed to watch Werner Herzog movies and listen to My Bloody Valentine until it warms up. As an aside, the Urban Outfitters near my apartment has Neil Young vinyls on display in the window, but doesn’t have anything by The Clash for sale.

    Read More
  3. Chang says:

    Patrice O’Neal was awesome. Probably my favorite black comic of the last 20 years.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    He used to joke about dying of diabetes, too. Which is what killed him. Funny dude.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren’t white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty for complaining while you’re a rich white guy. Jesus.

    Read More
    • Replies: @donut
    Key & Peele are OK but kind of hit and miss with their stuff . They were pretty good in the FX series "Fargo" . While I don't hate Louis CK I see your point about him . Here is a pretty funny routine he did on Conan sorry if everybody's already seen it :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMeXGE_a8Gg

    Anybody who has or had a dog knows what a battle of wills it is to get a pill down them.

    Bill Burr is pretty good too :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew6fv9UUlQ8
    , @TGGP
    Louis CK doesn't seem as bitter & angry as Marc Maron. This may be partly because he's become a huge success, but part of his persona is nonchalance. Like when he says eating animals is wrong, but he doesn't care, and it tastes good, so he's going to keep doing it. He delivers that with roughly the same tone as he delivers the punchline to his daughter's joke about why the gorilla wasn't allowed to go to the ballet.
    , @Wyrd
    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZpcZC1mBIk
    , @anonitron
    I think you're exaggerating the anti-white self-loathing of Louis CK somewhat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRDXeinEUJQ
    , @Abe

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.
     
    The only other black celebrities I've gotten this vibe from who look less than, like, 1/2 white are the Wayans brothers. Never saw WHITE CHICKS so I can't attest how mean-spirited it was, but they haven't shied away from playing goofy, loser characters (BLANK MAN), and their movies seem to have broadly multi-racial casts who get along in a truly easy-going/post-race manner.
    , @interesting
    "Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits"

    because he can and is allowed to.....i wonder why?
  4. Jacobite says: • Website

    Unfortunately some of my wittiest cutting remarks only come to me after the dinner party is over.

    Read More
    • Replies: @donut
    L'esprit de l'escalier
    , @Buzz Mohawk

    "Unfortunately some of my wittiest cutting remarks only come to me after the dinner party is over."
     
    Esprit de l'escalier.

    Alas, we all experience this.

  5. I sent in my application to The Real World, so I’m hoping to hear back from that. I’m putting a lot of my eggs into that basket, the MTV basket. And if that doesn’t work out I’m thinking about getting a gun, and dealin’ crack. Being a crack dealer. Not, like, a mean crack dealer, but like… like a nice one. Kinda friendly, like, “Hey, what’s up guys? You want some crack?”. I’m just kinda waiting on those two things to flesh themselves out.

    Thank the Seals for the basket, Star for the Bucks and rifle scope, Zippo for the torch, Jesus for the Coke, Crush for the Oranges and Adam for the Apple PC.

    Read More
  6. PA says:

    A mulatto: a brown ingredient in heroin

    An albino: a white ingredient in heroin

    A mosquito: the needle going in

    My libido: the rush

    Read More
  7. BB753 says:

    Good point about micro- agressions, Steve.
    I’ve always hated this song, but the real point of “Creep” is that it’s a beta’s lament, pining for a pedestalized girl :

    “When you were here before
    Couldn’t look you in the eye
    You’re just like an angel
    Your skin makes me cry”

    It’s painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric.

    BTW, the song is a rip-off of The Hollies’ hit “The Air that I Breathe”. They sued and won.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Air_That_I_Breathe

    As for O’Neal, why are Blacks so patronizing toward rock music? It’s not as if Black music today is anything but crap. Back in the 60′s a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HydvceA1PAI
    , @Priss Factor
    "It’s painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M8decTFvuc
    , @Priss Factor
    "Back in the 60′s a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups."

    But hip hop seems to have conquered the world.
    , @CJ
    The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player.

    The stoners at my high school listened to Are You Experienced? and Axis: Bold as Love until the vinyl grooves wore out. I don't remember any keyboard tracks.
  8. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Wasn’t exactly captivated or even entertained by the conversation in this clip. I did, however, find a youtube commenter’s observation particularly relevant:

    I can’t focus on Patrice with Tits McGee chillin’ next to him…damn

    Read More
  9. @Dave Pinsen
    The odd thing is that Radiohead ran away from that song, and from the whole genre, and started making weird, experimental music. All down hill after The Bends.

    Or, most of what they did before The Bends was derivative and noisy, and their later albums are increasingly original and musical.

    I do like “Creep,” though, mostly for Thom Yorke’s shockingly gorgeous tenor voice.

    Speaking off the clash between white tortured artistry and black bravado, Girl Talk does a really hilarious mashup of Thom Yorke’s climax in “Creep” with Russell Tyrone Jones (Ol’ Dirty Bastard)’s “Shimmy Shimmy Ya.” Yorke is crooning “She’s running out of here” verse while Jones bellows “Ooh baby I like it raw.” It’s amazing. Begins around 2:50. The contrast speaks volumes about some important group differences in romantic attitudes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I'll give you original, but a lot of it is experimental dreck. I think this was their peak: http://youtu.be/GKkr29EGc-Y
  10. Duderino says:

    The more liberal the whitey the more they love that song!
    By contrast, this is the song I hear my black friends singing “I’m so awesome”

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-q75gnSYsSw

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs' instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?
  11. donut says:
    @Chang
    Patrice O'Neal was awesome. Probably my favorite black comic of the last 20 years.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    He used to joke about dying of diabetes, too. Which is what killed him. Funny dude.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren't white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty for complaining while you're a rich white guy. Jesus.

    Key & Peele are OK but kind of hit and miss with their stuff . They were pretty good in the FX series “Fargo” . While I don’t hate Louis CK I see your point about him . Here is a pretty funny routine he did on Conan sorry if everybody’s already seen it :

    Anybody who has or had a dog knows what a battle of wills it is to get a pill down them.

    Bill Burr is pretty good too :

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I think Gary Shandling may have pioneered the dogs and pills bit.
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    I enjoy Louis C.K. a great deal, despite his Obamocrat tendencies. But Bill Burr is a freakin' GENIUS. And about as anti-P.C. as it gets. I can't recommend him enough.
  12. Sunbeam says:

    Ummmm I’m really not too sure who exactly Radiohead is. I didn’t really like Nirvana either.

    Only band from that era (or close to it) I liked was Alice in Chains.

    I’m pretty sure I have heard this song, but I never really paid any attention to it.

    It’s that big really?

    Have we really diverged this much? I mean to me a seminal song would be something like “Thunderstruck” by AC/DC (saying that because it seems to me that one is where they parted ways with blues rock, except for “covering” their own stuff in a lot of ways).

    This song is big? Really? I can think of more people who are into the Blue Man Group than this.

    It’s just… I dunno where I live you can pretty much count on even people that hate country knowing who the hot acts are in country. Heavy Metal (or whatever passes for it) is still big.

    All these new acts that are called things like “Death Metal” or “Thrash” or whatever it is. Things like Nightwish (think I have that name right). I have played things like Schelmish, Corvus Corax, and Daft Punk, and people seem to think it is ok.

    But Radiohead? No one listens to that. It gets played on the radio but I don’t think I have ever heard this band referenced in a conversation.

    They were big really? I’ve heard he name but just assumed they were something like a hair band from the 80′s with a different schtick. But in the end utterly disposable and forgettable.

    This song and this band really?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Creep was actually big before Radiohead got big. It's kind of weird.

    AC/DC got played a ton during the '80s, along with every other rock act that was big in the '70s. Nirvana's Nevermind finally broke rock radio open for newer bands like Radiohead in the '90s.
    , @Hipster
    Radihead has sold 30 million albums worldwide. Creep, a song released in the mid 90s, has 78 million youtube views. I have no idea about any country artists. Where I come from, NY, people often say "I like any kind if kusic, except country." Its so common it is a cliche on dating sites etc.

    No one likes metal either. Where do you live, pray? Have you had significant contact with Blue State Whites? We clearly are a separate group man.
  13. Money for nothin. Indian prime minister’s monogrammed suit sold for near $700,000 at auction.
    When it comes to religion India is a millionaire and America is a pauper and fashion is a religion.

    AN offer of something for nothing usually emanates from a Nigerian web address, or one of those breathless late-night home shopping channel …Down Under News

    Jul 2, 2014 – Is Nigeria bifurcating between the teeming urban corridor of Lagos-Ibadan, and the Boko Haram-infested northeast, where … Nigeria: With Abuja blast, Boko Haram creeps to center of capital (CSM) Legendary, mythical and imaginary scary creatures http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigerian+Nigwilly

    As Rome burns… “This proposal comes just two years after an arbitrator ruled the city of St. Louis must pay the Rams $700 million for upgrades to their current stadium and 20 years after the city ponied up $600 million to attract the team to St. Louis in the first place.

    Countless studies show such taxpayer-funded stadium projects have zero economic impact, simply giving billionaire owners—largely freed from their greatest operating costs—more disposable revenue with which to pay millionaire athletes even higher salaries.”

    http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/12/missouri-offers-to-hand-out-500-million

    Reese Bobby: How’d stock-car racing get it’s start?
    Ricky Bobby: Uh, bootleggers in Prohibition, they had to have cars fast enough to outrun the fed, then they started racing each other!
    Reese Bobby: [after a moment] That’s right. [throws another bucket on Ricky]
    Ricky Bobby: If I was right, why’d you throw another bucket on me?!
    Reese Bobby: Well I filled up three. Now, there’s nothing like driving to avoid jail. Nothing hones your mind and your instincts like necessity. So I taped a kilo of cocaine underneath the car and called the boys in blue. Now, the way I figure it, you got about 2 minutes before they show up, and you do five to ten. So, what’s it gonna be? Fear…or prison?

    Read More
    • Replies: @donut
    [Our policy here is to generally allow free exchange of ideas, including highly controversial ones, in the comment-threads. However, the number of your totally off-topic comments, often quite rambling or with lengthy unrelated quotes, is getting to be a serious problem.

    Henceforth, if you wish your comments to be published rather than simply trashed, please reduce their quantity and substantially improve their quality and topicality. You might consider establishing your own blogsite where your personal musings on all sorts of random things might be more appropriate.]

    Douche bag.
    , @Dennis Dale
    I think I speak for everyone when I ask, what the hell was that? And I thought the lyrics to "Loser" were obscure!
  14. Jefferson says:

    Patrice O’Neal was one of the greatest Irish American comedians of all time, right up there with Denis Leary.

    Read More
  15. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Dueling was common in Western civilization until fairly recently. It was allowed in the German army as late as WWI for example. Men were allowed to respond to microaggressions by demanding a duel and killing their opponents in the duel.

    The passive-aggressive snark that now saturates our culture is only around because we got rid of dueling. It was obviously a mistake and should be revived.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    It was allowed in the German army as late as WWI for example.

    One of the last serious duels was fought in 1937 by two German officers, Roland Strunk and Horst Krutschinna. The duel was fought with pistols and Strunk died of his wound.
  16. Basket Case Spending XLIX

    http://reason.com/blog/2015/02/01/this-super-bowls-case-study-in-the-mecha

    math.stackexchange.com/…/are-there-numerical-algorith…
    Stack Exchange
    Jul 5, 2011 – You can’t divide MMDCCI by LXXIII using long division. So, question: are there numerical methods for Roman numerals, and if not, how did the …“Do you think Arabs are dumb? They gave us our numbers. Try doing long division with Roman numerals.”
    ―Kurt Vonnegut
    Read more at http://izquotes.com/quote/276029
    “True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.”
    ―Kurt Vonnegut
    Read more at http://izquotes.com/quote/276029
    The going got weird and the weird went professional.

    Read More
  17. TGGP says: • Website
    @Chang
    Patrice O'Neal was awesome. Probably my favorite black comic of the last 20 years.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    He used to joke about dying of diabetes, too. Which is what killed him. Funny dude.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren't white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty for complaining while you're a rich white guy. Jesus.

    Louis CK doesn’t seem as bitter & angry as Marc Maron. This may be partly because he’s become a huge success, but part of his persona is nonchalance. Like when he says eating animals is wrong, but he doesn’t care, and it tastes good, so he’s going to keep doing it. He delivers that with roughly the same tone as he delivers the punchline to his daughter’s joke about why the gorilla wasn’t allowed to go to the ballet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @rustbeltreader
    I heard an honest man lie. I've seen the good side of bad. And the down side of up. And everything between.
    , @V Vega

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren’t white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty...
     
    Louis CK is a committed negrophile from way back–even Chris Rock has commented on it–but I don't know if it translates to hating white people. He's a former Catholic. I've noticed, for some reason, the traumatization of being raised a Catholic sometimes becomes sublimated and winds up creating odd behavior. For Louis, his rage finally translated itself into him being a self-appointed Holden Caulfield to black people.

    As far as Marc Maron, he's just a former pothead, and coke burnout, now nicotine fiend. Like most druggies, he's not that complicated. We used to call them "self-willed brats." In the context of being a middle-aged entertainer, he's a devoted neurotic exploiting his afflictions as an artistic conceit.
  18. donut says:
    @Jacobite
    Unfortunately some of my wittiest cutting remarks only come to me after the dinner party is over.

    L’esprit de l’escalier

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    German version: Treppenwitz (staircase joke or wit, or alternatively, realization of a bad joke), although I like the French version better for the notion of spirit (esprit)
  19. Wyrd says:
    @Chang
    Patrice O'Neal was awesome. Probably my favorite black comic of the last 20 years.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    He used to joke about dying of diabetes, too. Which is what killed him. Funny dude.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren't white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty for complaining while you're a rich white guy. Jesus.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Read More
  20. @Jacobite
    Unfortunately some of my wittiest cutting remarks only come to me after the dinner party is over.

    “Unfortunately some of my wittiest cutting remarks only come to me after the dinner party is over.”

    Esprit de l’escalier.

    Alas, we all experience this.

    Read More
  21. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I don’t know if the popularity of “Creep” is due so much to self-loathing as to the general tone of the song. I really like “Creep” just as I really like (and have liked for many, many years) “The Air that I Breathe” by the Hollies. Both have a mood I and sound that I relate to.

    Read More
  22. anonitron says:
    @Chang
    Patrice O'Neal was awesome. Probably my favorite black comic of the last 20 years.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    He used to joke about dying of diabetes, too. Which is what killed him. Funny dude.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren't white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty for complaining while you're a rich white guy. Jesus.

    I think you’re exaggerating the anti-white self-loathing of Louis CK somewhat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRDXeinEUJQ

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    I posted this exact same clip, but Steve bounced it.

    Now I'm glad I never donate.
  23. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Isn’t “Feels like Teen Spirit” just about normal adolescent angst and awkwardness?

    Read More
  24. @Dave Pinsen
    The odd thing is that Radiohead ran away from that song, and from the whole genre, and started making weird, experimental music. All down hill after The Bends.

    I guess that’s the nice thing about getting a hit, it gives you the resources to do the style that you really like, even if ti doens’t make as much money.

    Read More
  25. @TGGP
    Louis CK doesn't seem as bitter & angry as Marc Maron. This may be partly because he's become a huge success, but part of his persona is nonchalance. Like when he says eating animals is wrong, but he doesn't care, and it tastes good, so he's going to keep doing it. He delivers that with roughly the same tone as he delivers the punchline to his daughter's joke about why the gorilla wasn't allowed to go to the ballet.

    I heard an honest man lie. I’ve seen the good side of bad. And the down side of up. And everything between.

    Read More
  26. hilarious, especially about obama voters. he left the world too soon

    He was a star football player at West Roxbury High School, ending his career with 3 letters in varsity football and a state championship his senior year. He turned down a sports scholarship to Northeastern University in order to attend with the help of a public housing grant, because he preferred studying Performing Arts to playing football.[8][9]

    being black and weighing 300+ pounds will make you good at football it seems, just noticing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    Or it will make you JaMarcus Russell. (Jameis, meet JaMarcus - you're both in the same boat, or you will be soon enough.)

    I like ABBA, myself. (I lost my Man Card years ago - accidentally threw it away when cleaning out my wallet.)
  27. rod1963 says:

    I don’t get it, maybe it’s a age thing. I understand the alienation aspect, it’s hard not to when the MSM/Big Sports/Hollywood/Big Music/Education ram all sorts of diversity/deviancy down our gullet and when the only bad guys are white guys (often blond) and the black is the hero or the brains. Or when the white guy gets his ass kicked by a dried out 110lb feminazi who couldn’t carry a sack of spuds without tipping over. Not to mention being demonized for our civilization and just for breathing.

    Read More
  28. I don’t like “Creep.”

    But “Teen Spirit” is awesome. The good thing about “Teen Spirit” is that lyrics are incomprehensible. It’s about the sound and the attitude.

    Read More
  29. That’s hilarious! Has there ever been anything similar to “Creep” in black music? B.B. King sang about how nobody loved him…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWCdQ2yRe9k

    …but he didn’t seem too down about it.

    Read More
  30. nglaer says:

    Just came back from watching the SNL thing on TV. Chris Rock introducing Eddie Murphy. It’s rich. We’re better off with black people here, Michael Brown nonsense notwithstanding. Not 100 million of them, but. . . You Steve are the probably the only race realist guy who recognizes, acknowledges that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Black people are as American as any of us. In my family we still invite our fuckup cousin to Thanksgiving.
  31. I see a lot of whole alpha/beta dichotomy in “white music” which is missing in other music. To me the only really true mainstream music type is Alternative. (country also, but I don’t know anything about it and it stays in its own niche of the culture) At least for what has endured as “white music” has more or less followed this Progressive Rock->Punk->New Wave->Post New Wave->Grunge->Alternative. There was an offshoot of heavy rock->metal. But for the music that has flowed into the enduring idea of SWPL Culture, it has more or less followed the path I described.

    But certainly since 1990, and probably somewhat in the punk era, the feedstock from which the musicians came out of was beta males. Certainly there were the sigma broody creative types. But the bulk of these band guys probably had a rough time with girls in their teens. And even after their teens, even if the whole band thing started to kick in for them, there was this deep beta programming based on their fundamental experiences with girls and in the competition with the alpha-ish boys of their world.

    Then toss in blue pill conditioning about how women are such special little snowflakes to be loved and worshiped forever, that love!! was so special, that having a special princess girlfriend was the be all and end all of male life. And they are all told that girls like “sensitive nice guys that treat them well”, “just be yourself” and you’ll get your special princess.

    So even when Grunge boy or Alternative boy started to get the attention and effect from being on the stage, the deep blue pill programming and his beta past would kick in if he had some attractive girl fall into his lap. And he goes all nice, kiss ass, suck up, fails every shit test and she dumps him.

    Almost every alternative song has one of three themes (1 and the most common theme) I got my ass kicked by a girl and I am so miserable (2) The “alternative” version of how he just so loves her so much (3) Girls don’t like me. Given the 80/20 pareto rule and then toss in the probability that this form of music appeals to the less masculine, then in that crowd you are probably pushing 85-90% beta.

    So really this Radiohead song is not some white person singing, it is a skinny beta male, probably a smart one who is completely correct at realizing that he sort of disgusts girls, a creep.

    There are exceptions; there are alpha bands, at least alpha front men. I think Kings of Leon is an example of one, maybe the Killers. But really it is getting to the point where alternative music can sort of disgust me because I can’t stand to hear a beta bleating on and on about how “special she is and I love her sooo much”, when I know that to treat a woman in this way is absolutely suicidal.

    I listen to this college station in my town constantly, actually some national award winner. They appear to have this Top 30 format of alternative songs. Maybe a song I like will be on a couple of times and I liked it. Then I look for the band on YouTube and it just kills the song for me. The singer is so beta and the video massively reinforces it.

    Two recent examples are Rollercoaster by Bleachers and then Hey Geronimo by Sheppard. Both frontmen are two of the most beta guys and when you see the video it reinforces just how suckup bleating beta the two are.

    The girl alternative songs are like maybe 3 themes (1) I love my alpha sooo much (2) My alpha did me wrong (3) I thought he was an alpha but he turned out to be a beta, so I dumped him. Girls would want to hear some guy pledge undying love to her but not some beta. And alpha boys just don’t do the pledging of undying love. If pressed about “Do you love me?” he says “What?Whatever”.

    So then with girls you get into this whole bell curve thing on looks and any girl that is < 1.5 SD from the left side of the mean of girl attractiveness doesn't get the alpha. (Basically HB 6 or below) She either gets crapped on by him after a short fling or she never gets near him. Almost all girls today within 1 SD of the mean could have tons of male attention, just not from the males she wants to give it to her. And a lot of girl alternative listeners really fit right into this slot, HB5s or 6s, on the intelligent side, and the fact the best men don't want jack to do with them eats them up. So she also has the self loathing of the beta male.

    Music, and particularly vocal music, is sexual status signalling. And it is hard wired directly into the emotions of sex and love (which is really about sex). We get it from birds and other animals that signal using the voice. Which is why most songs are about love(sex) and not about how much I like using my washing machine or what I kick I get out of programming javascript.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Even these days when music isn't that big a deal, how many famous actresses marry alternative rock stars?

    Girls like sensitive artistic boys who sing about how nobody likes them.
    , @Vendetta
    The real magic seems to come when you get an Alpha male rockstar doing a song along 'Beta' sort of themes. Think of the enduring popularity of Axl Rose, the epitome of male alpha stardom, sitting down at a piano and singing November Rain.

    Women do actually want devotion and true love...they just want it from a real man. Not from a loser.
    , @Uptown Resident
    Actually (pace Roissy), "beta" behavior--when it goes with real world success--has been working for men for a really long time. I'm thinking of the Western love lyric tradition where the male speaker exalts the female beloved while wallowing in his own inadequacy. Dante and Petrarch pioneered this style for the modern West in the late middle ages.

    Quality guys are ones who have alpha standing (financial/professional accomplishment), but have personal behaviors that some call beta (kind, loyal, bookish, alternative, capable of self-scrutiny). By this standard, Thom Yorke is undeniably a catch.

    This is the main reason I think the alpha/beta distinction, as it's currently used, is completely off target. Successful men will attract women. Nice guys will usually be capable of a relationship. Successful, nice guys are the ideal.

    Occasionally I'll hear Gotye's "Somebody that I used to know" and laugh thinking about Lawrence Auster's "the video is distasteful" warning when linking to the music video in a post, "A music video about beta males." http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021796.html
  32. Louis CK makes my skin crawl.

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    • Replies: @Kylie
    @ Auntie Analogue

    "Louis CK makes my skin crawl."

    Mine, too. I watched some of his shows b/c that's what my husband chose for us to watch during dinner. Had no idea who he was but in no time, he made my flesh crawl. When I realized he'd sired spawn, I felt physically ill.

    Believe me, self-loathing as he is, he doesn't loathe himself half as much as I loathe him.
    , @HA
    "Louis CK makes my skin crawl."

    I get a lot of email from people saying, 'I saw something you did on TV that was clean.' Like I did this clip on Conan that went viral... So a lot of people that saw it would go to my website and be horrified by everything else that I say.

    So I got a lot of emails from people saying, 'Why can't you just keep it clean?...' And I would not usually respond to them because I don't return emails, but in my head and to a few of them I said, 'Well, you're the one putting the limit. Not me. I'm saying a bunch of stuff, and you're the one saying I should only say one facet of it.' That's a limit. But at the same time, when these people would write to me I'd kind of like them. Whenever I've encountered a Christian saying, 'Why don't you stop talking like that so I can hear you?' I think, 'Well you're the one putting the earmuffs on, but I wish you could hear me because I like you.'

    On people who identify as 'right-wing'

    "There's been a lot of simple vilification of right-wing people. It's really easy to say, 'Well, you're Christian, you're anti-this and that, and I hate you.' But to me, it's more interesting to say, 'What is this person like and how do they really think?' Do I have any common ground with people like that who find me really, really offensive?...."

    On the recent death of comedian Patrice O'Neal

    "I lost my friend Patrice. I'm sorry. [pauses] Patrice died of a diabetic coma. He didn't take good care of himself. And there's part of me that's upset with him for not taking good care of himself, because he took himself away from us."
     
    http://www.npr.org/2011/12/13/143581710/louis-c-k-reflects-on-louie-loss-love-and-life
  33. Robert Ford says: • Website
    @Dave Pinsen
    The odd thing is that Radiohead ran away from that song, and from the whole genre, and started making weird, experimental music. All down hill after The Bends.

    yeah, they basically don’t play it at shows any more because yorke doesn’t like it – he renamed it “Crap.”

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  34. V Vega says:
    @TGGP
    Louis CK doesn't seem as bitter & angry as Marc Maron. This may be partly because he's become a huge success, but part of his persona is nonchalance. Like when he says eating animals is wrong, but he doesn't care, and it tastes good, so he's going to keep doing it. He delivers that with roughly the same tone as he delivers the punchline to his daughter's joke about why the gorilla wasn't allowed to go to the ballet.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren’t white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty…

    Louis CK is a committed negrophile from way back–even Chris Rock has commented on it–but I don’t know if it translates to hating white people. He’s a former Catholic. I’ve noticed, for some reason, the traumatization of being raised a Catholic sometimes becomes sublimated and winds up creating odd behavior. For Louis, his rage finally translated itself into him being a self-appointed Holden Caulfield to black people.

    As far as Marc Maron, he’s just a former pothead, and coke burnout, now nicotine fiend. Like most druggies, he’s not that complicated. We used to call them “self-willed brats.” In the context of being a middle-aged entertainer, he’s a devoted neurotic exploiting his afflictions as an artistic conceit.

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    • Replies: @anonitron
    where did this meme that louis ck is some sort of ultra liberal negro triumphalist originate?

    i ask this as someone who's listened to ck's every stand up special and radio appearance produced before the year 2014
  35. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I’m from Eastern Europe and can’t figure out what either Sailer or Patrice are talking about here.

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    • Replies: @Hacienda
    Radiohead is English. We all have a tendency to conflate England with California. Steve is no different. If you can separate England from California, things get easier. Beck is Californian.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgSPaXgAdzE
  36. Chip Smith says: • Website

    This is a deceptively insightful moment by Patrice O’Neal, who had more than a few.

    There’s an embarrassing feeling that comes when you read where you want to leave the book and talk to the writer. I always say that when that comes, whatever your ultimate verdict, you have to call it a good book. Because it caught you. Snared you. Made you want to make it personal. The best comics are like that, too. It feels like a conversation where there’s something at stake.

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  37. Patrice O’Neal was great on the old “Tough Crowd” show that followed “The Daily Show” before Colbert got the slot. “Tough Crowd,” hosted by Colin Quinn, was a better show, with a diverse, real discussion of issues instead of unadulterated left-wing snark. Now that Colbert is off the air they really ought to bring back Colin Quinn.

    As far as Key and Peele, their “Gay Wedding Advice” is the funniest thing I’ve seen in the last year. It vividly captures the discomfort blacks have about gays.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtgY1q0J_TQ

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Tough Crowd was great, and Patrice was great on it.
  38. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The Louis CK haters are wrong. If anything that guy’s a closet realist.

    I saw him live, and he did a bit called “Of course…but maybe”, where “of course” = some socially desirable opinion you’re required to hold, and “but maybe” = his private doubts about it.

    The last one he did to close out his set was “Of course all groups are equal and there are no sub-species in the human race. Of course. OF COURSE! But maybe…that’s the most ridiculous thing I ever heard and there’s absolutely no reason to believe it.”

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  39. eah says:

    Patrice is a fairly uncommon name. Another distinguished Patrice:

    Patrice Rushen — Forget Me Nots.

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  40. J1234 says:

    One of the most important skills a radio personality can possess is the ability to laugh obligingly while interviewing a comedian. It often comes across (to me) as the most insincere laughter that a person could possibly muster up. That’s probably because most modern comics seem more pathetic than funny. Some are genuinely funny, but most of the “comedy club” variety aren’t.

    This guy isn’t so bad, but the “white people get a bad rap” line seems more like schtick to me than anything else. It’s possible that there might be some degree of sincerity there, but usually, when a prominent black celebrity shows himself to be slightly more reasonable and somewhat less venomous and moderately more conciliatory than Kanye West, he’s heralded as being wise, noble and insightful. There’s very little wisdom to be found among modern comics.

    Modern comedy seems more about forcing a perverse world view on an audience and not so much about humor. But the audience usually plays along. Like radio personalities, most audiences laugh at modern comics sort of the way religious cultists worship Jim Jones – like it’s their job and responsibility to do so.

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    • Replies: @anonitron
    I get the feeling this is becoming one of those topics that demonstrates that a significant portion of the iSteve commentariat is comprised of humorless old scolds.
  41. @Duderino
    The more liberal the whitey the more they love that song!
    By contrast, this is the song I hear my black friends singing "I'm so awesome"

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-q75gnSYsSw

    Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs’ instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Did they (blacks) just stop learning how to play instruments?".
    You may have a new line of inquiry here Steve.
    I'm guessing that most present day Afro/Americans who want to be musicians want to be rappers like Tupac.
    Guitar playing and drums not so much.
    , @duderino
    It's my observation that they most blacks still have a fair amount of natural musical talent. The whole purpose of their music is different that it is for whites (especially older ones). "I'm so awesome" is a song that you listen to in your freshly cleaned car or with your headphones on in the gym. It's just self-esteem on repeat. Showing off your swagger is the point, not your musical skill. Most black guys have a fairly high self esteem self point. Music helps keeps it high regardless of negative life events.
    , @anonymous-antiskynetist
    There's a whole theory on that having to do with defunding of band class in urban schools, but I can't remember the name associated with it.
    , @Hunsdon
    I wouldn't call him stellar on guitar, but I'll admit I was surprised when Wyclef Jean did the tribute to Johnny Cash.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-qzUqG4YpQ
    , @Mr. Blank
    There is an "official" answer to this, sort of -- official in the sense that I've heard it numerous times in different contexts.

    The way I've always heard it is that in the 70s and 80s, EEEEvil tax-hating, budget-cutting whites slashed all the funding for arts enrichment in poor schools. As a result, newer generations of poor black youth were cut off from formal music training, and black traditions of instrumental virtuosity fell by the wayside. The result was the rise of rap, a style of music which had its origins in poor black kids musically improvising with the tools they had available -- their voices and their record players.

    I have no idea how accurate this is, but it's noteworthy that I always hear some version of it any time a white person wonders aloud, "how come there are no longer any black musical geniuses like Duke Ellington or Jimi Hendrix?"
  42. It’s the Weekend! Now is the time on Sprockets, errr, iSteve where we talks about music.

    I is bona fide alcoholic, lawyer, guitar god – when my bass player’s wife lets him out of the house, he performs “Creep”. He can’t sing to save his life, but I think “Creep” is in Bb or something. It is easy for white folks to sing.

    Ok – profound observations on music achieved – there is other stuff in the universe – not just Rocket Racoon

    Check out a conquistador American singing about the damn end we are living through, the cooling…

    http://youtu.be/_VZSYJgg8Ks

    The first thing to go
    it might surprise you to know
    it’s not the blood from the muscle
    or the strength from the bone

    Between you and me
    it’s the simplest thing
    it’s the warmth of the body
    when the soul is at home

    It’s the heat
    and you struggle to keep it inside
    but it seems
    it’s stealing away in the night

    -
    When you first realized
    that your body had died
    you went to the tunnel
    to wait there alone

    And you stood there for days
    but the light never came
    so you took your poor body
    and you walked it back home

    Now you’re popping some pills
    oh to fight back the chill
    and you’re picking some flowers
    to help with the stench

    But no manner of blush
    will be quite enough
    to cover the pallor
    that spreads ‘cross your skin

    and they said
    that hell would be fire and smoke
    but in the end
    it’s this cooling that scares you the most

    -
    There’s a pretty young thing
    with a pretty gold ring
    and she talks to you every night
    ’cause she don’t know you’re dead

    And you can’t figure how
    when you’re walking through town
    no one’s noticed the knife
    sticking out of your head

    Now you’re living in fear
    that sometime this year
    they will finally notice
    that you’re heart doesn’t beat

    And they’ll dig you a grave
    and they’ll put you away
    but you still won’t be ready
    you’ll grow back like a weed

    Like a weed
    and you wonder what you’re waiting for
    ’cause it seems
    there’s no honor in death anymore

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  43. @Anonymous
    Dueling was common in Western civilization until fairly recently. It was allowed in the German army as late as WWI for example. Men were allowed to respond to microaggressions by demanding a duel and killing their opponents in the duel.

    The passive-aggressive snark that now saturates our culture is only around because we got rid of dueling. It was obviously a mistake and should be revived.

    It was allowed in the German army as late as WWI for example.

    One of the last serious duels was fought in 1937 by two German officers, Roland Strunk and Horst Krutschinna. The duel was fought with pistols and Strunk died of his wound.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859.

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2841218953_ec16824d6a_b.jpg
  44. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Uptown Resident
    Or, most of what they did before The Bends was derivative and noisy, and their later albums are increasingly original and musical.

    I do like "Creep," though, mostly for Thom Yorke's shockingly gorgeous tenor voice.

    Speaking off the clash between white tortured artistry and black bravado, Girl Talk does a really hilarious mashup of Thom Yorke's climax in "Creep" with Russell Tyrone Jones (Ol' Dirty Bastard)'s "Shimmy Shimmy Ya." Yorke is crooning "She's running out of here" verse while Jones bellows "Ooh baby I like it raw." It's amazing. Begins around 2:50. The contrast speaks volumes about some important group differences in romantic attitudes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka3GznTXur8

    I’ll give you original, but a lot of it is experimental dreck. I think this was their peak: http://youtu.be/GKkr29EGc-Y

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  45. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @donut
    Key & Peele are OK but kind of hit and miss with their stuff . They were pretty good in the FX series "Fargo" . While I don't hate Louis CK I see your point about him . Here is a pretty funny routine he did on Conan sorry if everybody's already seen it :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMeXGE_a8Gg

    Anybody who has or had a dog knows what a battle of wills it is to get a pill down them.

    Bill Burr is pretty good too :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew6fv9UUlQ8

    I think Gary Shandling may have pioneered the dogs and pills bit.

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  46. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Sunbeam
    Ummmm I'm really not too sure who exactly Radiohead is. I didn't really like Nirvana either.

    Only band from that era (or close to it) I liked was Alice in Chains.

    I'm pretty sure I have heard this song, but I never really paid any attention to it.

    It's that big really?

    Have we really diverged this much? I mean to me a seminal song would be something like "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC (saying that because it seems to me that one is where they parted ways with blues rock, except for "covering" their own stuff in a lot of ways).

    This song is big? Really? I can think of more people who are into the Blue Man Group than this.

    It's just... I dunno where I live you can pretty much count on even people that hate country knowing who the hot acts are in country. Heavy Metal (or whatever passes for it) is still big.

    All these new acts that are called things like "Death Metal" or "Thrash" or whatever it is. Things like Nightwish (think I have that name right). I have played things like Schelmish, Corvus Corax, and Daft Punk, and people seem to think it is ok.

    But Radiohead? No one listens to that. It gets played on the radio but I don't think I have ever heard this band referenced in a conversation.

    They were big really? I've heard he name but just assumed they were something like a hair band from the 80's with a different schtick. But in the end utterly disposable and forgettable.

    This song and this band really?

    Creep was actually big before Radiohead got big. It’s kind of weird.

    AC/DC got played a ton during the ’80s, along with every other rock act that was big in the ’70s. Nirvana’s Nevermind finally broke rock radio open for newer bands like Radiohead in the ’90s.

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  47. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Harry Baldwin
    Patrice O'Neal was great on the old "Tough Crowd" show that followed "The Daily Show" before Colbert got the slot. "Tough Crowd," hosted by Colin Quinn, was a better show, with a diverse, real discussion of issues instead of unadulterated left-wing snark. Now that Colbert is off the air they really ought to bring back Colin Quinn.

    As far as Key and Peele, their "Gay Wedding Advice" is the funniest thing I've seen in the last year. It vividly captures the discomfort blacks have about gays.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtgY1q0J_TQ

    Tough Crowd was great, and Patrice was great on it.

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  48. @BB753
    Good point about micro- agressions, Steve.
    I've always hated this song, but the real point of "Creep" is that it's a beta's lament, pining for a pedestalized girl :

    "When you were here before
    Couldn't look you in the eye
    You're just like an angel
    Your skin makes me cry"

    It's painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric.

    BTW, the song is a rip-off of The Hollies' hit "The Air that I Breathe". They sued and won.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Air_That_I_Breathe

    As for O'Neal, why are Blacks so patronizing toward rock music? It's not as if Black music today is anything but crap. Back in the 60's a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups.
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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Here's the earlier Phil Everly version (arranged by Warren Zevon) of the song by Hammond and Hazelwood.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdVA8YYpSMw
    , @David R. Merridale
    According to Wikipedia, Radiohead got nailed for using the same chord progression as The Air That I Breathe. But how many distinct, listenable chord progressions are there? A few hundred? A few thousand? Fewer than the number of songs, I bet.
  49. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Patrice O’Neill is right. Neil Young didn’t have a stretch as uniformly awesome as the Highway 61/Blonde on Blonde Dylan stretch. But career-wise, he has far outshone in breadth and variety his hero.

    But judging by the broad mainstream media discourse on serious folk/rock music, Bob Dylan is still at the center of the culture while Neil Young has always been a sort of fringy act. But among the large majority of long term rock music fans, Neil Young is mostly revered (even though I hear his new stuff isn’t all that special) while Bob Dylan is usually regarded as a 60′s innovator who got the ball rolling but was largely irrelevant (except to more literary-type rock fans) by the 70′s.

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    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    I've run into a number of people who compare Neil Young's career arc to Bowie and Reed's- the 1 good album/1 ok/1 bad ratio, the half-baked experiments, brooding dark lyrics.
  50. @Steve Sailer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HydvceA1PAI

    Here’s the earlier Phil Everly version (arranged by Warren Zevon) of the song by Hammond and Hazelwood.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdVA8YYpSMw

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  51. donut says:
    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I Need A Dollar was the theme song of HBO's short-lived series How To Make It In America. Which was actually kind of insightful about entrepreneurship.
  52. anonitron says:
    @V Vega

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren’t white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty...
     
    Louis CK is a committed negrophile from way back–even Chris Rock has commented on it–but I don't know if it translates to hating white people. He's a former Catholic. I've noticed, for some reason, the traumatization of being raised a Catholic sometimes becomes sublimated and winds up creating odd behavior. For Louis, his rage finally translated itself into him being a self-appointed Holden Caulfield to black people.

    As far as Marc Maron, he's just a former pothead, and coke burnout, now nicotine fiend. Like most druggies, he's not that complicated. We used to call them "self-willed brats." In the context of being a middle-aged entertainer, he's a devoted neurotic exploiting his afflictions as an artistic conceit.

    where did this meme that louis ck is some sort of ultra liberal negro triumphalist originate?

    i ask this as someone who’s listened to ck’s every stand up special and radio appearance produced before the year 2014

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    • Replies: @V Vega

    where did this meme that louis ck is some sort of ultra liberal negro triumphalist originate?

    i ask this as someone who’s listened to ck’s every stand up special and radio appearance produced before the year 2014
     
    Apparently, you missed out on "Pootie Tang."
    Or noticed in his current television series, he cast a black woman as his wife for no reason related to reality, despite his character's children being white?

    Louis CK's negrophelia is considered a given amongst his black friends:

    http://youtu.be/OKY6BGcx37k?t=15m10s

    He's the most committed negrophile since Quentin Tarantino.
  53. Radiohead is actually incredibly embarrassed about the “Creep” song, and try to distance themselves from it as much as possible. In fact at one point they were considered a “one hit wonder” where people would go to their concerts only to hear “Creep” and leave immediately after it was played.

    They even wrote a song in response to this phenomena called “My Iron Lung” a song which, I personally consider to be far better, and along with the songs “Just” and “No Surprises” probably the best track of their career.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bEGkFR9oRA

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    They would have to write a check to Hammond and Hazelwood any time they play "Creep" in concert.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Okay, but the jarring chorus from "My Iron Lung" sounds a lot like a Nirvana hit. I forget the name of it, but maybe from Nirvana's last album.
  54. Whiskey says: • Website

    Creep was important to people who wore plaid shirts and lived in Seattle, maybe. I can think of far more important songs: Anarchy in the UK, Train in Vain, Whip It, Eminence Front, Song 2, I Wanna Be Sedated, Beautiful Day, True, by respectively the Sex Pistols, Clash, Devo, The Who, Blur, Ramones, U2, and Spandau Ballet.

    Heck Fleetwood Mac matters more to White people than Radiohead and Creep.

    ONeal is onto something though. Intensely atomized individual White people yearn for intense feelings through music. AC DC Shook Me All Night Long is just the flipside of say, True or U2s semi Christian stuff.

    Very different from current Black mysic excluding Jazz guys like Ramsey Lewis Le Fleur, aimed at White audiences.

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    • Replies: @Lot

    Creep was important to people who wore plaid shirts and lived in Seattle, maybe. I can think of far more important songs: Anarchy in the UK, Train in Vain, Whip It, Eminence Front, Song 2, I Wanna Be Sedated, Beautiful Day, True, by respectively the Sex Pistols, Clash, Devo, The Who, Blur, Ramones, U2, and Spandau Ballet.
     
    Other than Song 2, those were all songs from another generation. Song 2 is really great, but lacks the emotion of Creep.

    You all who don't remember how big it was when it came out were not watching MTV or listening to "Modern Rock" radio stations back then.

    I'm sorry your formative years seem to have been the late 70's/early 80's when mainstream rock was dreck like AC/DC, the Ramones, and the Sex Pistols, plus a bunch of past-their-prime late 60's bands. Steve made the right call back then getting into New Wave.
    , @Anonymous
    Whiskey,

    I like a lot of the songs mentioned. I think Eminence Front is a great song, but to my knowledge it's never received much attention.
  55. anonitron says:
    @J1234
    One of the most important skills a radio personality can possess is the ability to laugh obligingly while interviewing a comedian. It often comes across (to me) as the most insincere laughter that a person could possibly muster up. That's probably because most modern comics seem more pathetic than funny. Some are genuinely funny, but most of the "comedy club" variety aren't.

    This guy isn't so bad, but the "white people get a bad rap" line seems more like schtick to me than anything else. It's possible that there might be some degree of sincerity there, but usually, when a prominent black celebrity shows himself to be slightly more reasonable and somewhat less venomous and moderately more conciliatory than Kanye West, he's heralded as being wise, noble and insightful. There's very little wisdom to be found among modern comics.

    Modern comedy seems more about forcing a perverse world view on an audience and not so much about humor. But the audience usually plays along. Like radio personalities, most audiences laugh at modern comics sort of the way religious cultists worship Jim Jones - like it's their job and responsibility to do so.

    I get the feeling this is becoming one of those topics that demonstrates that a significant portion of the iSteve commentariat is comprised of humorless old scolds.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Laguna Beach Fogey
    Oh, you're just realizing this now?


    For more of same, check out the guys over at Vox's place.
  56. @blank slate
    Radiohead is actually incredibly embarrassed about the "Creep" song, and try to distance themselves from it as much as possible. In fact at one point they were considered a "one hit wonder" where people would go to their concerts only to hear "Creep" and leave immediately after it was played.

    They even wrote a song in response to this phenomena called "My Iron Lung" a song which, I personally consider to be far better, and along with the songs "Just" and "No Surprises" probably the best track of their career.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bEGkFR9oRA

    They would have to write a check to Hammond and Hazelwood any time they play “Creep” in concert.

    Read More
  57. majneb says:

    I think its more accurate to say that “Creep” appeals to Generation X whites, rather than white people in general.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Major Problem
    Yeah. I'd never heard of the song before, and am not sure that I have heard of Radiohead. When I was in high school in the late 1990s, the big thing in my crowd was neo-swing and jump blues.
    Any kids into something like that "Creep" song I would have considered Big "L" scrubs--that is assuming I even noticed their existence.
    The guys in my set were into cafe-racing motorcycles (The Crest from La Canada to Wrightwood was considered a 100-mile-an-hour road), street rods and airplanes, and the girls liked vigorous, athletic dancing. The bands we danced to--and the dancing was a big part of it--were Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and The Brian Setzer Orchestra.

    http://youtu.be/pUWP8d930mg
  58. Lot says:

    I greatly like both Creep and Air That I Breath, but I don’t see enough similarity to sue over. Just a few notes. Now if you want to see some grand theft of music, listen to the song Bittersweet Symphony ripped off

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKC5cdGBY04

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  59. Lot says:
    @Whiskey
    Creep was important to people who wore plaid shirts and lived in Seattle, maybe. I can think of far more important songs: Anarchy in the UK, Train in Vain, Whip It, Eminence Front, Song 2, I Wanna Be Sedated, Beautiful Day, True, by respectively the Sex Pistols, Clash, Devo, The Who, Blur, Ramones, U2, and Spandau Ballet.

    Heck Fleetwood Mac matters more to White people than Radiohead and Creep.

    ONeal is onto something though. Intensely atomized individual White people yearn for intense feelings through music. AC DC Shook Me All Night Long is just the flipside of say, True or U2s semi Christian stuff.

    Very different from current Black mysic excluding Jazz guys like Ramsey Lewis Le Fleur, aimed at White audiences.

    Creep was important to people who wore plaid shirts and lived in Seattle, maybe. I can think of far more important songs: Anarchy in the UK, Train in Vain, Whip It, Eminence Front, Song 2, I Wanna Be Sedated, Beautiful Day, True, by respectively the Sex Pistols, Clash, Devo, The Who, Blur, Ramones, U2, and Spandau Ballet.

    Other than Song 2, those were all songs from another generation. Song 2 is really great, but lacks the emotion of Creep.

    You all who don’t remember how big it was when it came out were not watching MTV or listening to “Modern Rock” radio stations back then.

    I’m sorry your formative years seem to have been the late 70′s/early 80′s when mainstream rock was dreck like AC/DC, the Ramones, and the Sex Pistols, plus a bunch of past-their-prime late 60′s bands. Steve made the right call back then getting into New Wave.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Weren't The Ramones and Sex Pistols New Wave bands?
  60. @blank slate
    Radiohead is actually incredibly embarrassed about the "Creep" song, and try to distance themselves from it as much as possible. In fact at one point they were considered a "one hit wonder" where people would go to their concerts only to hear "Creep" and leave immediately after it was played.

    They even wrote a song in response to this phenomena called "My Iron Lung" a song which, I personally consider to be far better, and along with the songs "Just" and "No Surprises" probably the best track of their career.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bEGkFR9oRA

    Okay, but the jarring chorus from “My Iron Lung” sounds a lot like a Nirvana hit. I forget the name of it, but maybe from Nirvana’s last album.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Nirvana's "Heart-Shaped Box:"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6P0SitRwy8
    , @blank slate
    Are you trying to imply that the reason that Radiohead seems to have turned to more artsy, "experimental" music in the last decade or so is because they couldn't write a standard catchy rock hit without ripping some other band off?

    That would seem pretty ironic especially because they have become critical darlings, and widely considered "the most important band in music" by sites like Pitchfork ever since they took that step whereas before they were mainly seen as competent, but unexceptional alternative rock at best.

    Compare their old stuf ("Creep") to the songs they have been putting out more recently. It's mainly rhythm focused with a little ambient noise and some instrumentals and vocals that almost seem improvised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vMDKg4MMN8
  61. @Steve Sailer
    Okay, but the jarring chorus from "My Iron Lung" sounds a lot like a Nirvana hit. I forget the name of it, but maybe from Nirvana's last album.

    Nirvana’s “Heart-Shaped Box:”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6P0SitRwy8

    Read More
  62. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs' instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?

    “Did they (blacks) just stop learning how to play instruments?”.
    You may have a new line of inquiry here Steve.
    I’m guessing that most present day Afro/Americans who want to be musicians want to be rappers like Tupac.
    Guitar playing and drums not so much.

    Read More
  63. @JustAnotherGuyWitha1911
    It's the Weekend! Now is the time on Sprockets, errr, iSteve where we talks about music.

    I is bona fide alcoholic, lawyer, guitar god - when my bass player's wife lets him out of the house, he performs "Creep". He can't sing to save his life, but I think "Creep" is in Bb or something. It is easy for white folks to sing.

    Ok - profound observations on music achieved - there is other stuff in the universe - not just Rocket Racoon

    Check out a conquistador American singing about the damn end we are living through, the cooling...

    http://youtu.be/_VZSYJgg8Ks


    The first thing to go
    it might surprise you to know
    it's not the blood from the muscle
    or the strength from the bone

    Between you and me
    it's the simplest thing
    it's the warmth of the body
    when the soul is at home

    It's the heat
    and you struggle to keep it inside
    but it seems
    it's stealing away in the night

    -
    When you first realized
    that your body had died
    you went to the tunnel
    to wait there alone

    And you stood there for days
    but the light never came
    so you took your poor body
    and you walked it back home

    Now you're popping some pills
    oh to fight back the chill
    and you're picking some flowers
    to help with the stench

    But no manner of blush
    will be quite enough
    to cover the pallor
    that spreads 'cross your skin

    and they said
    that hell would be fire and smoke
    but in the end
    it's this cooling that scares you the most

    -
    There's a pretty young thing
    with a pretty gold ring
    and she talks to you every night
    'cause she don't know you're dead

    And you can't figure how
    when you're walking through town
    no one's noticed the knife
    sticking out of your head

    Now you're living in fear
    that sometime this year
    they will finally notice
    that you're heart doesn't beat

    And they'll dig you a grave
    and they'll put you away
    but you still won't be ready
    you'll grow back like a weed

    Like a weed
    and you wonder what you're waiting for
    'cause it seems
    there's no honor in death anymore

    Xochitl Hinojosa can sing?

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  64. So “The Air that I Breathe” from the early 1970s has a catchy chorus, but the melody for both the chorus and the bridge is dated and poppy sounding. But the verse for “The Air that I Breathe” is brilliant and ahead of its time. So Radiohead lifted the general chord progression for its verses from the old Hammond and Hazelwood song, but wrote a new verse melody. Then Radiohead used the melody from “The Air that I Breathe’s” verse for Thom Yorke’s sensational bridge.

    The Moon Loungers doing a mashup of “The Air that I Breathe” and “Creep:”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XbogWA-riU

    But, sadly, they skip the climactic bridge to “Creep,” maybe because it’s too high for the guy to sing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Perhaps the real reason Radiohead doesn't like doing "Creep" in concert is because Yorke can't reliably hit the high notes during the bridge?

    By way of analogy ... When I saw Queen in 1977, Freddie Mercury didn't even pretend to sing the famous operatic part of "Bohemian Rhapsody" -- they just played a tape while they went offstage.

    It's not impossible to do live -- I've heard a high school glee club do "Bohemian Rhapsody" and the school's star tenor sang Freddie's role without overdubs -- but by 1977 Mercury couldn't do it night after night on tour.
  65. @Steve Sailer
    So "The Air that I Breathe" from the early 1970s has a catchy chorus, but the melody for both the chorus and the bridge is dated and poppy sounding. But the verse for "The Air that I Breathe" is brilliant and ahead of its time. So Radiohead lifted the general chord progression for its verses from the old Hammond and Hazelwood song, but wrote a new verse melody. Then Radiohead used the melody from "The Air that I Breathe's" verse for Thom Yorke's sensational bridge.

    The Moon Loungers doing a mashup of "The Air that I Breathe" and "Creep:"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XbogWA-riU

    But, sadly, they skip the climactic bridge to "Creep," maybe because it's too high for the guy to sing.

    Perhaps the real reason Radiohead doesn’t like doing “Creep” in concert is because Yorke can’t reliably hit the high notes during the bridge?

    By way of analogy … When I saw Queen in 1977, Freddie Mercury didn’t even pretend to sing the famous operatic part of “Bohemian Rhapsody” — they just played a tape while they went offstage.

    It’s not impossible to do live — I’ve heard a high school glee club do “Bohemian Rhapsody” and the school’s star tenor sang Freddie’s role without overdubs — but by 1977 Mercury couldn’t do it night after night on tour.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    Steve, I saw Queen with Freddie live as well. The operatic part of “Bohemian Rhapsody" isn't one voice - it's a mega vocal studio overdubbed deal. I'm pretty sure Queen used tape for that interlude from day one.
    Fun fact - Queen played an outdoor bikie festival in Australia in 1974 before they were big.

    "According to one source, there was some incitement from the the announcer, who came on just after Queen had performed and asked the crowd: "D'you want anymore from these pommie bastards or do ya want an Aussie rock band?" Queen quit the stage to boos and calls of `go back to Pommyland, ya pooftahs!' but Freddie Mercury bravely responded by prophetically declaring "When we come back to Australia, Queen will be the biggest band in the world!" -- and when they returned in 1976 they were indeed one of the hottest acts on the planet"
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Kind of like how Robert Plant couldn't hit the bridge on Thank You when he and Page released their album so he just changed it.
    , @donut
    Here's a cover of Bohemian Rhapsody you may be familiar with :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqymcJRSbxI

    If you've already seen it don't post it. It's got almost 11,000,000 views .
    , @Brutusale
    Most of it was Roger Taylor, Queen drummer/vocalist and Taki's sailing buddy, with input in the mid-range from guitarist Brian May.

    On the album version, there were 180 vocal overdubs in the operatic section.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Rhapsody

    Was that the 1977 Queen/Thin Lizzy tour, Steve? One of the best shows I ever saw at the old Boston Garden.

    http://www.queenonline.com/en/the-band/interviews/queen-1/queen-thin-lizzy/

    RIP, Freddie Mercury and Phil Lynott.
  66. @Steve Sailer
    Perhaps the real reason Radiohead doesn't like doing "Creep" in concert is because Yorke can't reliably hit the high notes during the bridge?

    By way of analogy ... When I saw Queen in 1977, Freddie Mercury didn't even pretend to sing the famous operatic part of "Bohemian Rhapsody" -- they just played a tape while they went offstage.

    It's not impossible to do live -- I've heard a high school glee club do "Bohemian Rhapsody" and the school's star tenor sang Freddie's role without overdubs -- but by 1977 Mercury couldn't do it night after night on tour.

    Steve, I saw Queen with Freddie live as well. The operatic part of “Bohemian Rhapsody” isn’t one voice – it’s a mega vocal studio overdubbed deal. I’m pretty sure Queen used tape for that interlude from day one.
    Fun fact – Queen played an outdoor bikie festival in Australia in 1974 before they were big.

    “According to one source, there was some incitement from the the announcer, who came on just after Queen had performed and asked the crowd: “D’you want anymore from these pommie bastards or do ya want an Aussie rock band?” Queen quit the stage to boos and calls of `go back to Pommyland, ya pooftahs!’ but Freddie Mercury bravely responded by prophetically declaring “When we come back to Australia, Queen will be the biggest band in the world!” — and when they returned in 1976 they were indeed one of the hottest acts on the planet”

    Read More
  67. @Steve Sailer
    Okay, but the jarring chorus from "My Iron Lung" sounds a lot like a Nirvana hit. I forget the name of it, but maybe from Nirvana's last album.

    Are you trying to imply that the reason that Radiohead seems to have turned to more artsy, “experimental” music in the last decade or so is because they couldn’t write a standard catchy rock hit without ripping some other band off?

    That would seem pretty ironic especially because they have become critical darlings, and widely considered “the most important band in music” by sites like Pitchfork ever since they took that step whereas before they were mainly seen as competent, but unexceptional alternative rock at best.

    Compare their old stuf (“Creep”) to the songs they have been putting out more recently. It’s mainly rhythm focused with a little ambient noise and some instrumentals and vocals that almost seem improvised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vMDKg4MMN8

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Radiohead since OK Computer or whatever album they started doing the experimental stuff is like the rock equivalent of The Wire or something - the critics lavish praise on it but how many people actually enjoy it?

    It's like some of the modern noise symphonies impose on their patrons sometimes. Maybe later Radiohead's prominence is a CIA conspiracy, like that abstract art business Steve has blogged about.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to ...

    It's interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they'd be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It's a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).
  68. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    ‘Ronnie James Dio flashed a ” Devil’s Horns” gesture to the audience.’

    Now, that’s more the quintessence of ‘white boy’s’ rock.

    Read More
  69. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @donut
    I need a dollar

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zx-QNIGZ8Y

    from season 1 The Wire

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of-NHHmUO0k&list=PL38839DF355414C98

    I Need A Dollar was the theme song of HBO’s short-lived series How To Make It In America. Which was actually kind of insightful about entrepreneurship.

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  70. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    What other motifs than sexual bragging, bragging about money, threatening to kill or injure people, and self pitying whining does rap deal with?

    Read More
  71. @grey enlightenment
    hilarious, especially about obama voters. he left the world too soon

    He was a star football player at West Roxbury High School, ending his career with 3 letters in varsity football and a state championship his senior year. He turned down a sports scholarship to Northeastern University in order to attend with the help of a public housing grant, because he preferred studying Performing Arts to playing football.[8][9]

    being black and weighing 300+ pounds will make you good at football it seems, just noticing.

    Or it will make you JaMarcus Russell. (Jameis, meet JaMarcus – you’re both in the same boat, or you will be soon enough.)

    I like ABBA, myself. (I lost my Man Card years ago – accidentally threw it away when cleaning out my wallet.)

    Read More
  72. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    Perhaps the real reason Radiohead doesn't like doing "Creep" in concert is because Yorke can't reliably hit the high notes during the bridge?

    By way of analogy ... When I saw Queen in 1977, Freddie Mercury didn't even pretend to sing the famous operatic part of "Bohemian Rhapsody" -- they just played a tape while they went offstage.

    It's not impossible to do live -- I've heard a high school glee club do "Bohemian Rhapsody" and the school's star tenor sang Freddie's role without overdubs -- but by 1977 Mercury couldn't do it night after night on tour.

    Kind of like how Robert Plant couldn’t hit the bridge on Thank You when he and Page released their album so he just changed it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    Nobody's pulled off warbling when he needs to like Plant, even at the early stage of his career. One of the things I noticed from various youtube footage/audio boots (now that even Led Wallet has about given up on stopping them) is how after 1972 Plant simply lost half a register. I certainly like a lot of their later stuff, but he pretty much quit trying to hit that zone again.
  73. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @blank slate
    Are you trying to imply that the reason that Radiohead seems to have turned to more artsy, "experimental" music in the last decade or so is because they couldn't write a standard catchy rock hit without ripping some other band off?

    That would seem pretty ironic especially because they have become critical darlings, and widely considered "the most important band in music" by sites like Pitchfork ever since they took that step whereas before they were mainly seen as competent, but unexceptional alternative rock at best.

    Compare their old stuf ("Creep") to the songs they have been putting out more recently. It's mainly rhythm focused with a little ambient noise and some instrumentals and vocals that almost seem improvised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vMDKg4MMN8

    Radiohead since OK Computer or whatever album they started doing the experimental stuff is like the rock equivalent of The Wire or something – the critics lavish praise on it but how many people actually enjoy it?

    It’s like some of the modern noise symphonies impose on their patrons sometimes. Maybe later Radiohead’s prominence is a CIA conspiracy, like that abstract art business Steve has blogged about.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uptown Resident
    This may be a generational divide. Gen-Xers and older prefer Radiohead's rockier stuff. Millennials are post-rock.

    I didn't pay any attention to Radiohead until "In Rainbows" came out. The song "Reckoner" is still probably my favorite piece of theirs.

    Thom Yorke is an interesting guy. He's vegan. He's married to his college girlfriend, and they have two kids. His wife wrote her dissertation on the iconographic tradition of Dante's "Divine Comedy." Yorke shuns his celebrity and has an awkward relationship with the media.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOoCixFA8OI
    , @Lot
    I think The Wire was amazing. I've watched the whole series twice, and look forward to doing so again in five years or so.

    Radiohead, outside of Creep, ranges from bland to bad.

    A few times I tried listening to the top songs of the year list from Pitchfork, and they were almost universally bad and in the same way as Radiohead.
  74. Every trend and element in ‘rock’ and rap has been around since the summer of 1965. What has changed is that since that time, blacks and whites have pretty obviously been trying to find a way to segregate while switching the source of these pop forms away from southern American culture to borrowing more from modern European art conventions and middle class pretentions.We are far removed from the conventions that began with the pentecostal churches. But what remains is a shared cultural spring for artists and communities that try their hardest to self-segregate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "Every trend and element in ‘rock’ and rap has been around since the summer of 1965. "

    Rappish?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba1JnNiyBY
  75. @Mark Minter
    I see a lot of whole alpha/beta dichotomy in "white music" which is missing in other music. To me the only really true mainstream music type is Alternative. (country also, but I don't know anything about it and it stays in its own niche of the culture) At least for what has endured as "white music" has more or less followed this Progressive Rock->Punk->New Wave->Post New Wave->Grunge->Alternative. There was an offshoot of heavy rock->metal. But for the music that has flowed into the enduring idea of SWPL Culture, it has more or less followed the path I described.

    But certainly since 1990, and probably somewhat in the punk era, the feedstock from which the musicians came out of was beta males. Certainly there were the sigma broody creative types. But the bulk of these band guys probably had a rough time with girls in their teens. And even after their teens, even if the whole band thing started to kick in for them, there was this deep beta programming based on their fundamental experiences with girls and in the competition with the alpha-ish boys of their world.

    Then toss in blue pill conditioning about how women are such special little snowflakes to be loved and worshiped forever, that love!! was so special, that having a special princess girlfriend was the be all and end all of male life. And they are all told that girls like "sensitive nice guys that treat them well", "just be yourself" and you'll get your special princess.

    So even when Grunge boy or Alternative boy started to get the attention and effect from being on the stage, the deep blue pill programming and his beta past would kick in if he had some attractive girl fall into his lap. And he goes all nice, kiss ass, suck up, fails every shit test and she dumps him.

    Almost every alternative song has one of three themes (1 and the most common theme) I got my ass kicked by a girl and I am so miserable (2) The "alternative" version of how he just so loves her so much (3) Girls don't like me. Given the 80/20 pareto rule and then toss in the probability that this form of music appeals to the less masculine, then in that crowd you are probably pushing 85-90% beta.

    So really this Radiohead song is not some white person singing, it is a skinny beta male, probably a smart one who is completely correct at realizing that he sort of disgusts girls, a creep.

    There are exceptions; there are alpha bands, at least alpha front men. I think Kings of Leon is an example of one, maybe the Killers. But really it is getting to the point where alternative music can sort of disgust me because I can't stand to hear a beta bleating on and on about how "special she is and I love her sooo much", when I know that to treat a woman in this way is absolutely suicidal.

    I listen to this college station in my town constantly, actually some national award winner. They appear to have this Top 30 format of alternative songs. Maybe a song I like will be on a couple of times and I liked it. Then I look for the band on YouTube and it just kills the song for me. The singer is so beta and the video massively reinforces it.

    Two recent examples are Rollercoaster by Bleachers and then Hey Geronimo by Sheppard. Both frontmen are two of the most beta guys and when you see the video it reinforces just how suckup bleating beta the two are.

    The girl alternative songs are like maybe 3 themes (1) I love my alpha sooo much (2) My alpha did me wrong (3) I thought he was an alpha but he turned out to be a beta, so I dumped him. Girls would want to hear some guy pledge undying love to her but not some beta. And alpha boys just don't do the pledging of undying love. If pressed about "Do you love me?" he says "What?Whatever".

    So then with girls you get into this whole bell curve thing on looks and any girl that is < 1.5 SD from the left side of the mean of girl attractiveness doesn't get the alpha. (Basically HB 6 or below) She either gets crapped on by him after a short fling or she never gets near him. Almost all girls today within 1 SD of the mean could have tons of male attention, just not from the males she wants to give it to her. And a lot of girl alternative listeners really fit right into this slot, HB5s or 6s, on the intelligent side, and the fact the best men don't want jack to do with them eats them up. So she also has the self loathing of the beta male.

    Music, and particularly vocal music, is sexual status signalling. And it is hard wired directly into the emotions of sex and love (which is really about sex). We get it from birds and other animals that signal using the voice. Which is why most songs are about love(sex) and not about how much I like using my washing machine or what I kick I get out of programming javascript.

    Even these days when music isn’t that big a deal, how many famous actresses marry alternative rock stars?

    Girls like sensitive artistic boys who sing about how nobody likes them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Heck, they don't even have to play electric guitar. Daisy from "The Great Gatsby" married that Christian banjo praise music guy.
    , @donut
    I'm a sensitive mutherf**ker . Can I get some of that good s**t too ?
  76. @Steve Sailer
    Even these days when music isn't that big a deal, how many famous actresses marry alternative rock stars?

    Girls like sensitive artistic boys who sing about how nobody likes them.

    Heck, they don’t even have to play electric guitar. Daisy from “The Great Gatsby” married that Christian banjo praise music guy.

    Read More
  77. Sean says:

    Suicide rates don’t lie.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Suicide rates don’t lie.

    Yes, this is what Patrice O'Neal was getting at - or getting close to - when he dissected "Creep" and "Fight Club". There's an emotional range that people like the Finns and Japanese hit that is audible to most of us fellow northerners but seems to have no more effect than the sound of a dog whistle to billions of others . This part of the emotional spectrum seems to lead to high suicide rates on the down-side and clever mobile phones on the up-side. In safer levels in produces songs like "Creep".
  78. @blank slate
    Are you trying to imply that the reason that Radiohead seems to have turned to more artsy, "experimental" music in the last decade or so is because they couldn't write a standard catchy rock hit without ripping some other band off?

    That would seem pretty ironic especially because they have become critical darlings, and widely considered "the most important band in music" by sites like Pitchfork ever since they took that step whereas before they were mainly seen as competent, but unexceptional alternative rock at best.

    Compare their old stuf ("Creep") to the songs they have been putting out more recently. It's mainly rhythm focused with a little ambient noise and some instrumentals and vocals that almost seem improvised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vMDKg4MMN8

    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to …

    It’s interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they’d be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It’s a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Or Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees). Gay, and a great singer. Or the kid fronting Queen now. http://youtu.be/gM7Hlg75Mlo
    , @Harry Baldwin
    I'm not that knowledgeable about music and wouldn't be aware of anyone who's not regularly on mainstream radio, but I've trhought about how many rock stars can really sing. Obviously Freddie Mercury and Pat Benatar. To the list of male performers I'd add Meatloaf in his heyday.

    For male performers, there's a type of voice that works for rock, it doesn't have to be opera star quality. When Sam Cook was complimented on his singing, he responded, “Well that’s very kind of you, but voices ought not to be measured by how pretty they are. Instead they matter only if they convince you that they are telling the truth.” [Quoted by Bob Dylan, who would resonate with that sentiment.]
    , @Uptown Resident

    It’s interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey.
     
    SO true.

    Trent Reznor is an example of a revered terrible singer. He writes interesting, moving music--but it's amazing that he gets away with singing it in addition to writing it.
    , @Brutusale
    The best vocal chops are in metal these days
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_l4Ab5FRwM

    Straight white males should like this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpJAmlnBxoA

    or this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwGSAFarHRg

    Our Scandinavian friends are on the cutting edge of metal with vocal chops, but this Norwegian kid is out there, doing the occasional original with a band but making a nice living with 600K Youtube subscribers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnoQ_Y6FUqE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzK-EqyWlt0

    His Bohemian Rhapsody:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG8XDs8v3J0

    As well as Iron Maiden's Bruce Dickinson:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sif4TcI1_w
    , @Abe

    But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).
     
    Obsolescence + technical intricacy = GAY-GAY-GAAAAY!! (cf. opera, Broadway)

    If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they’d be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.
     
    Yeah, but that ratio is probably skewed by the fact that Strummer and Reed look like toads, not real rock gods (no homo). Robert Plant does top Rolling Stone's reader's poll of best rock singers (though he doesn't crack the Top 10 of RS's official, SCIENCE!-tific poll, where golden throated, like-never-to-be-seen-again marvels like John Lennon and Bob Dylan deservedly round out the top 7- God, Jann Wenner is such a rock & roll homer!).

    Actually, Mercury comes out below Jagger in the official Rolling Stone poll. I'd probably pick him as best all time, but your comments about him not matching his studio feats live (corroborating other things I've read) knock him down a few notches. As a Zep bootleg connoisseur, though, I can attest every singing highlight Plant achieved in the studio he matched live at least half a dozen times, and actually exceeded 2-3 times. The only other singer I can say rivals and exceeds him is Steve Perry, which is a grudging admission from someone not a big fan of Journye's cheeseball material.

    , @Chris
    This is an interesting comment. I'm a big fan of Mark Kozelek (Red House Painters, Sun Kil Moon) and there is no question that he has a high male to female ratio. He even had some lyrics recently about it:

    ------
    My band played here a lot in the nineties when we had
    A lot of female fans and fuck they all were cute
    Now I just sign posters for guys in tennis shoes
    ------

    His vocal style has become more and more monotone over time.
  79. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Seems like he was an interesting guy and I think he has a point – it’s the dagger going in at 0:57.

    Judging by some of the comments maybe it’s more of a repressed violence Anglo thing than universal White maybe?

    (Louis CK’s hatred of white people isn’t self-hatred.)

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  80. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to ...

    It's interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they'd be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It's a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

    Or Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees). Gay, and a great singer. Or the kid fronting Queen now. http://youtu.be/gM7Hlg75Mlo

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  81. @Sean
    Suicide rates don't lie.

    Suicide rates don’t lie.

    Yes, this is what Patrice O’Neal was getting at – or getting close to – when he dissected “Creep” and “Fight Club”. There’s an emotional range that people like the Finns and Japanese hit that is audible to most of us fellow northerners but seems to have no more effect than the sound of a dog whistle to billions of others . This part of the emotional spectrum seems to lead to high suicide rates on the down-side and clever mobile phones on the up-side. In safer levels in produces songs like “Creep”.

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  82. @Harry Baldwin
    It was allowed in the German army as late as WWI for example.

    One of the last serious duels was fought in 1937 by two German officers, Roland Strunk and Horst Krutschinna. The duel was fought with pistols and Strunk died of his wound.

    The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859.

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    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859."

    I imagine a lot of people reading this will be curious about such an incident. If they were to visit Wikipedia, here's what they'd find:


    <<>>
    , @Harry Baldwin
    That was the duel between Sen. David Broderick and Chief Justice David Terry, considered the last duel involving important people in the US. To a large extent it reflected the growing tension between North and South, which often erupted in 1850s California, where there were immigrants from all parts of the country. Terry, the Southerner, was a notorious duelist who had been involved in several bowie knife scrapes. He killed Broderick but was acquitted of murder because it was considered a fair duel. In 1889, in a public restaurant, Terry attacked Judge Stephen Field, who had succeeded Broderick, and was killed by Field's bodyguard. Field had also been a duelist in his youth, known to have had a jacket made with side pockets large enough to carry a pistol in each.

    I've read there are granite markers on the spots where Terry and Broderick stood when they fired.
    , @Marty
    Steve, do you know what the greatest aspect of The Duel Hole is?
  83. Pat Casey says:

    yeah but Karma Police is a jam.

    Karma police
    Arrest this man
    He talks in maths
    He buzzes like a fridge
    He’s like a detuned radio

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  84. duderino says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs' instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?

    It’s my observation that they most blacks still have a fair amount of natural musical talent. The whole purpose of their music is different that it is for whites (especially older ones). “I’m so awesome” is a song that you listen to in your freshly cleaned car or with your headphones on in the gym. It’s just self-esteem on repeat. Showing off your swagger is the point, not your musical skill. Most black guys have a fairly high self esteem self point. Music helps keeps it high regardless of negative life events.

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  85. polynikes says:

    Figured you guys would be more into Bill Buur’s take on white guilt movies.

    http://youtu.be/7LyqBb6HBSk

    Love Bill Burr.

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  86. SFG says:

    Good points, but what about market forces? Girls buy a lot of this crap. They love to hear high-status males (rock stars) saying how much they love them.

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  87. @anonitron
    I think you're exaggerating the anti-white self-loathing of Louis CK somewhat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRDXeinEUJQ

    I posted this exact same clip, but Steve bounced it.

    Now I’m glad I never donate.

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  88. @Steve Sailer
    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to ...

    It's interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they'd be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It's a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

    I’m not that knowledgeable about music and wouldn’t be aware of anyone who’s not regularly on mainstream radio, but I’ve trhought about how many rock stars can really sing. Obviously Freddie Mercury and Pat Benatar. To the list of male performers I’d add Meatloaf in his heyday.

    For male performers, there’s a type of voice that works for rock, it doesn’t have to be opera star quality. When Sam Cook was complimented on his singing, he responded, “Well that’s very kind of you, but voices ought not to be measured by how pretty they are. Instead they matter only if they convince you that they are telling the truth.” [Quoted by Bob Dylan, who would resonate with that sentiment.]

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    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    I think that was Smoky Robinson who said that, but point made.
  89. V Vega says:
    @anonitron
    where did this meme that louis ck is some sort of ultra liberal negro triumphalist originate?

    i ask this as someone who's listened to ck's every stand up special and radio appearance produced before the year 2014

    where did this meme that louis ck is some sort of ultra liberal negro triumphalist originate?

    i ask this as someone who’s listened to ck’s every stand up special and radio appearance produced before the year 2014

    Apparently, you missed out on “Pootie Tang.”
    Or noticed in his current television series, he cast a black woman as his wife for no reason related to reality, despite his character’s children being white?

    Louis CK’s negrophelia is considered a given amongst his black friends:

    http://youtu.be/OKY6BGcx37k?t=15m10s

    He’s the most committed negrophile since Quentin Tarantino.

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  90. Priss Factor [AKA "K. Arujo"] says:
    @juswonderinaboutbaseball
    Every trend and element in 'rock' and rap has been around since the summer of 1965. What has changed is that since that time, blacks and whites have pretty obviously been trying to find a way to segregate while switching the source of these pop forms away from southern American culture to borrowing more from modern European art conventions and middle class pretentions.We are far removed from the conventions that began with the pentecostal churches. But what remains is a shared cultural spring for artists and communities that try their hardest to self-segregate.

    “Every trend and element in ‘rock’ and rap has been around since the summer of 1965. ”

    Rappish?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba1JnNiyBY

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  91. @anon
    Patrice O'Neill is right. Neil Young didn't have a stretch as uniformly awesome as the Highway 61/Blonde on Blonde Dylan stretch. But career-wise, he has far outshone in breadth and variety his hero.

    But judging by the broad mainstream media discourse on serious folk/rock music, Bob Dylan is still at the center of the culture while Neil Young has always been a sort of fringy act. But among the large majority of long term rock music fans, Neil Young is mostly revered (even though I hear his new stuff isn't all that special) while Bob Dylan is usually regarded as a 60's innovator who got the ball rolling but was largely irrelevant (except to more literary-type rock fans) by the 70's.

    I’ve run into a number of people who compare Neil Young’s career arc to Bowie and Reed’s- the 1 good album/1 ok/1 bad ratio, the half-baked experiments, brooding dark lyrics.

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  92. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm not that knowledgeable about music and wouldn't be aware of anyone who's not regularly on mainstream radio, but I've trhought about how many rock stars can really sing. Obviously Freddie Mercury and Pat Benatar. To the list of male performers I'd add Meatloaf in his heyday.

    For male performers, there's a type of voice that works for rock, it doesn't have to be opera star quality. When Sam Cook was complimented on his singing, he responded, “Well that’s very kind of you, but voices ought not to be measured by how pretty they are. Instead they matter only if they convince you that they are telling the truth.” [Quoted by Bob Dylan, who would resonate with that sentiment.]

    I think that was Smoky Robinson who said that, but point made.

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  93. @Dave Pinsen
    Kind of like how Robert Plant couldn't hit the bridge on Thank You when he and Page released their album so he just changed it.

    Nobody’s pulled off warbling when he needs to like Plant, even at the early stage of his career. One of the things I noticed from various youtube footage/audio boots (now that even Led Wallet has about given up on stopping them) is how after 1972 Plant simply lost half a register. I certainly like a lot of their later stuff, but he pretty much quit trying to hit that zone again.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I wonder how well Freddy Mercury handled that bit of vocal histrionics in Another One Bites The Dust live. Or how well Adam Lambert does now.
    , @Kylie
    @yaqub the mad scientist

    "Nobody’s pulled off warbling when he needs to like Plant, even at the early stage of his career. One of the things I noticed from various youtube footage/audio boots (now that even Led Wallet has about given up on stopping them) is how after 1972 Plant simply lost half a register."

    Plant had a phenomenal voice with terrific breath control. Singers lose their top notes as they age and I'm sure in Plant's case, his recreational habits didn't help his voice.

    Another with terrific breath control, not surprisingly, was Chet Baker. The same qualities that made him such a gifted horn player also made him a marvelous singer. It's a pity most people don't realize how hard it is to sing softly. His phrasing, breath control and dynamics are amazing.

    http://youtu.be/jvXywhJpOKs
  94. Lara says:

    He does have a good point about not responding to passive aggression with straight up aggression. The few times I have lost my temper on black women, they actually became more calm and reasonable.

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  95. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Nobody has brought up the very odd thing about Patrice O’Neal and his comments. This is a guy who suffered for years from diabetes but couldn’t pull himself out of a gluttony cycle. He found solace through stuffing his face with cheeseburgers and died because of it.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Once you get on insulin it gets more difficult, because insulin makes you hungrier and it makes you bigger.
    , @donut
    Diabetes is a motherf**ker , I don't have it , thank god but I wouldn't judge anybody who has to deal with it .
  96. That stuttering guitar IS echt white folks. Always reminded me of the spastic stylings of Andy Gill from Gang of Four, one of the whitest bands that ever walked a stage; although their influences were all black at second hand. (via Doctor Feelgood). Fugazi is another utterly white group that takes black stuff like reggae and hops it up to that tempo and feel that I always associate with methamphetamine hillbilly fightin’ music–the original in that style being bluegrass.

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  97. @Steve Sailer
    Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs' instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?

    There’s a whole theory on that having to do with defunding of band class in urban schools, but I can’t remember the name associated with it.

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  98. Priss Factor [AKA "K. Arujo"] says:
    @BB753
    Good point about micro- agressions, Steve.
    I've always hated this song, but the real point of "Creep" is that it's a beta's lament, pining for a pedestalized girl :

    "When you were here before
    Couldn't look you in the eye
    You're just like an angel
    Your skin makes me cry"

    It's painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric.

    BTW, the song is a rip-off of The Hollies' hit "The Air that I Breathe". They sued and won.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Air_That_I_Breathe

    As for O'Neal, why are Blacks so patronizing toward rock music? It's not as if Black music today is anything but crap. Back in the 60's a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups.

    “It’s painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M8decTFvuc

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  99. Priss Factor [AKA "K. Arujo"] says:
    @BB753
    Good point about micro- agressions, Steve.
    I've always hated this song, but the real point of "Creep" is that it's a beta's lament, pining for a pedestalized girl :

    "When you were here before
    Couldn't look you in the eye
    You're just like an angel
    Your skin makes me cry"

    It's painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric.

    BTW, the song is a rip-off of The Hollies' hit "The Air that I Breathe". They sued and won.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Air_That_I_Breathe

    As for O'Neal, why are Blacks so patronizing toward rock music? It's not as if Black music today is anything but crap. Back in the 60's a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups.

    “Back in the 60′s a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups.”

    But hip hop seems to have conquered the world.

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  100. @donut
    Key & Peele are OK but kind of hit and miss with their stuff . They were pretty good in the FX series "Fargo" . While I don't hate Louis CK I see your point about him . Here is a pretty funny routine he did on Conan sorry if everybody's already seen it :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMeXGE_a8Gg

    Anybody who has or had a dog knows what a battle of wills it is to get a pill down them.

    Bill Burr is pretty good too :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew6fv9UUlQ8

    I enjoy Louis C.K. a great deal, despite his Obamocrat tendencies. But Bill Burr is a freakin’ GENIUS. And about as anti-P.C. as it gets. I can’t recommend him enough.

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  101. I would not conflate Waugh and Austen. Waugh was willing to make fun of anybody. In the Austen world your attitude toward your equal has much more room to be sarcastic or rude than your attitude toward your superiors or inferiors. The climax of Emma is a sarcastic remark toward a social inferior that seems rather mild by modern standards but in the book is taken as proof that Emma has allowed herself to become a jerk and needs Mr. Knightley to straighten her out.

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  102. Sunbeam says:

    I think there are some regional and class things going on here that haven’t been mentioned at all here yet.

    Louis CK (However you are supposed to spell that)? WhTF watches him? Larry the Cable Guy and David Chapelle on the other hand, usually the day after a Chapelle show or a Cable guy special, I’d hear someone talking about him. I’ve never heard anyone talking about Louis CK, just you know going about the day’s business of living.

    It is what it is I guess. But this whole notion that this Creep song (and Radiohead) is some kind of anthem…

    Well maybe it is. For you. Kind of like I had never heard of “mumble” movies before looking at this site.

    But I am struck by something. It’s like there was some kind of big divergence after 1980 or so, and not just between white and black music, but among the white audience as well.

    I have to echo some comments on here that black people seem to have forgotten how to play instruments. Well that is obviously not true, because you can find some really good black musicians… if you look real, real hard.

    The problem is that the gigantic black acts, the ones that mega sell and have a big presence in the public mind, well the problem is that they … suck.

    Like the Supreme Court justice who said he knew porn “when he saw it,” it just seems like you can tell when music has something, when it is good. You may not like the piece itself, but there is something that cannot be denied.

    And in general I haven’t heard that since about 1980 with black music, at least the big selling acts.

    Something odd happened about then that isn’t much analyzed as far as pop culture goes.

    Just to kind of rip off Dylan Thomas, when someone’s words “fork lightning” you can hear it, whether it is Motown or Bohemian Rhapsody.

    And this Creep song doesn’t fork lightning.

    And geez. Bob Dylan compared to Neil Young. Umm that kind of seems like comparing Godzilla to one of the Raptors from Jurassic Park.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I watch Louis C.K.'s show, but I think I laughed 0 or 1 times all season. He's a comedian who makes an alleged comedy that is almost never funny. And critics eat it up.
    , @anon
    "And geez. Bob Dylan compared to Neil Young. Umm that kind of seems like comparing Godzilla to one of the Raptors from Jurassic Park."

    I guess everyone has different tastes but I do think Dylan became largely only a music journalist's artist post mid 60's. This probably had to do with rock music becoming a more instrumental virtuoso genre starting in the late 60's instead of a more songwriter's genre like it was earlier in the 60's.

    But I remember reading a Lou Reed interview from the mid 70's where he raves on and on about Neil Young's guitar playing. I bet no big time acts from the era like Zepplin, Bowie, or the more obscure acts who nonetheless thought they were on par with the big acts like Lou Reed were really worried any longer about keeping up with any Dylan innovations, but most probably watched to make sure they were keeping up with some of the stuff Neil Young was doing.
  103. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Steve, on your point about many rock singers not being able to actually sing, or actually singing very badly, as compared to 1950s crooners, who were actual singers, this has got more to do with marketing and AR men taking over in the 60s and the ultimate triumph of style over substance. However, due to the preponderance of TV karaoke Simon Cowbell shows, the pendulum is swinging back to actual vocal excellence over showbiz puffery. Not that I’m a fan of Cowbell though.

    David Essex who was huge in 1970s was a very poor if not appallingly bad singer – his normal speaking voice, for gods sake is strained and horrible. But David Essex due to self mythologizing about his ‘dark gypsy good looks’ – this is before gypsies got a bad rap in the UK due to being faced with the reality of Romanian Roma, and undoubtedly he was a very handsome man’ was massively popular with women.
    During the heyday of mass market rock from 60s right through to the 90s, singing ability was only a very minor concern. The big concern was management, marketibility, hype, creating a buzz and selling product. It was a bizarro world.

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  104. @Dave Pinsen
    Radiohead since OK Computer or whatever album they started doing the experimental stuff is like the rock equivalent of The Wire or something - the critics lavish praise on it but how many people actually enjoy it?

    It's like some of the modern noise symphonies impose on their patrons sometimes. Maybe later Radiohead's prominence is a CIA conspiracy, like that abstract art business Steve has blogged about.

    This may be a generational divide. Gen-Xers and older prefer Radiohead’s rockier stuff. Millennials are post-rock.

    I didn’t pay any attention to Radiohead until “In Rainbows” came out. The song “Reckoner” is still probably my favorite piece of theirs.

    Thom Yorke is an interesting guy. He’s vegan. He’s married to his college girlfriend, and they have two kids. His wife wrote her dissertation on the iconographic tradition of Dante’s “Divine Comedy.” Yorke shuns his celebrity and has an awkward relationship with the media.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOoCixFA8OI

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    It could be a generational thing.

    One thing I've noticed, though, is there doesn't seem to have been much change in alt-rock in maybe 20 years or more. I turn to the indie channel on FIOS and there are songs from this year or last that wouldn't have been out of place in the '90s.
  105. Hacienda says:
    @Anonymous
    I'm from Eastern Europe and can't figure out what either Sailer or Patrice are talking about here.

    Radiohead is English. We all have a tendency to conflate England with California. Steve is no different. If you can separate England from California, things get easier. Beck is Californian.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgSPaXgAdzE

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  106. @anonitron
    I get the feeling this is becoming one of those topics that demonstrates that a significant portion of the iSteve commentariat is comprised of humorless old scolds.

    Oh, you’re just realizing this now?

    For more of same, check out the guys over at Vox’s place.

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  107. @Steve Sailer
    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to ...

    It's interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they'd be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It's a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

    It’s interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey.

    SO true.

    Trent Reznor is an example of a revered terrible singer. He writes interesting, moving music–but it’s amazing that he gets away with singing it in addition to writing it.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yeah, real interesting, moving stuff:

    http://www.lyrics007.com/Nine%20Inch%20Nails%20Lyrics/Closer%20Lyrics.html

    I want to f*ck you like an animal
    I want to feel you from the inside
     
  108. @Steve Sailer
    The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859.

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2841218953_ec16824d6a_b.jpg

    “The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859.”

    I imagine a lot of people reading this will be curious about such an incident. If they were to visit Wikipedia, here’s what they’d find:

    <<>>

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    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "I imagine a lot of people reading this will be curious about such an incident. If they were to visit Wikipedia, here’s what they’d find:"

    Oddly, the text I included subsequently, did not appear in the original post (had something to do with the brackets I used to denote a quotation, I guess). Here it is for real, this time:


    At that time, just prior to the start of the American Civil War, the Democratic Party of California was divided between pro-slavery and "Free Soil" factions. Broderick led the Free Soilers. One of his closest friends was David S. Terry, formerly the Chief Justice of the California State Supreme Court, an advocate of the extension of slavery into California. Terry lost his re-election bid because of his pro-slavery platform, and he blamed Broderick for the loss.

    Terry, considered even by his friends as caustic and aggressive,[6] made some inflammatory remarks at a party convention in Sacramento, which Broderick read. He took offense, and sent his former friend, Terry, an equally vitriolic reply which proclaimed:


    'Terry to be a "damned miserable wretch" who was as corrupt as President James Buchanan and William Gwin, California's other senator. "I have hitherto spoken of him as an honest man--as the only honest man on the bench of a miserable, corrupt Supreme Court--but now I find I was mistaken. I take it all back. He is just as bad as the others."'[7]

    Passions escalated; and, on September 13, 1859, Terry and Broderick, both expert marksmen, met outside of San Francisco city limits at Lake Merced for a duel.

    The pistols chosen for the duel had hair triggers, and Broderick's discharged prior to the final "1-2-3" count, firing prematurely into the ground. Thus disarmed, he was forced to stand as Terry shot him in the right lung. Terry at first believed the shot to be only a flesh wound, but it was mortal three days later. He was buried under a monument erected by the state in Lone Mountain Cemetery in San Francisco.
  109. Scott Walker, another guy with a masculine vocal style, which was copied, some say, by Bowie.

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  110. Hunsdon says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs' instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?

    I wouldn’t call him stellar on guitar, but I’ll admit I was surprised when Wyclef Jean did the tribute to Johnny Cash.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-qzUqG4YpQ

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  111. donut says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Perhaps the real reason Radiohead doesn't like doing "Creep" in concert is because Yorke can't reliably hit the high notes during the bridge?

    By way of analogy ... When I saw Queen in 1977, Freddie Mercury didn't even pretend to sing the famous operatic part of "Bohemian Rhapsody" -- they just played a tape while they went offstage.

    It's not impossible to do live -- I've heard a high school glee club do "Bohemian Rhapsody" and the school's star tenor sang Freddie's role without overdubs -- but by 1977 Mercury couldn't do it night after night on tour.

    Here’s a cover of Bohemian Rhapsody you may be familiar with :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqymcJRSbxI

    If you’ve already seen it don’t post it. It’s got almost 11,000,000 views .

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  112. Mr. Blank says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs' instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?

    There is an “official” answer to this, sort of — official in the sense that I’ve heard it numerous times in different contexts.

    The way I’ve always heard it is that in the 70s and 80s, EEEEvil tax-hating, budget-cutting whites slashed all the funding for arts enrichment in poor schools. As a result, newer generations of poor black youth were cut off from formal music training, and black traditions of instrumental virtuosity fell by the wayside. The result was the rise of rap, a style of music which had its origins in poor black kids musically improvising with the tools they had available — their voices and their record players.

    I have no idea how accurate this is, but it’s noteworthy that I always hear some version of it any time a white person wonders aloud, “how come there are no longer any black musical geniuses like Duke Ellington or Jimi Hendrix?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @donut
    I think most of the black singers of the 50's -70's got their experience singing in church not schools. The little current black music that I've heard is pretty much shit to me. Everybody hits a dry spell , fashions come and go.

    Who's heard of the Mills Brothers today ? But "The Mills Brothers, sometimes billed as The Four Mills Brothers, and originally known as The Four Kings of Harmony, were an American jazz and pop vocal quartet of the 20th century who made more than 2,000 recordings that combined sold more than 50 million copies, and garnered at least three dozen gold records. The Mills Brothers were inducted into The Vocal Group Hall of Fame in 1998."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9U75YC-jA

    Their career spanned four decades , the Rolling Stones of their day.

    , @The most deplorable one

    how come there are no longer any black musical geniuses like Duke Ellington or Jimi Hendrix?
     
    Was Hendrix really a musical genius or was he only a musical mediocrity who was fortunate to be black in an almost all-white industry and was thus a novelty?
  113. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    Isn’t this simply a reflection of the different life experiences of white males and females?

    Steve, did you have any sisters? Fathers, it seems to me (as a father and a son with a sister) always treat their daughters as special and their sons as a disappointment.

    Surely, this is also what the College Rape Hysteria is mostly about. Young women saying: “But I’m special, I’m Daddy’s little girl. How could that creep pump me and then dump me?”

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  114. I like two songs of Radiohead and especially the most famous of them, Fake Plastic Trees. Just like because of the melody and the complement of the tearful voice of the singer.

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  115. @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859."

    I imagine a lot of people reading this will be curious about such an incident. If they were to visit Wikipedia, here's what they'd find:


    <<>>

    “I imagine a lot of people reading this will be curious about such an incident. If they were to visit Wikipedia, here’s what they’d find:”

    Oddly, the text I included subsequently, did not appear in the original post (had something to do with the brackets I used to denote a quotation, I guess). Here it is for real, this time:

    At that time, just prior to the start of the American Civil War, the Democratic Party of California was divided between pro-slavery and “Free Soil” factions. Broderick led the Free Soilers. One of his closest friends was David S. Terry, formerly the Chief Justice of the California State Supreme Court, an advocate of the extension of slavery into California. Terry lost his re-election bid because of his pro-slavery platform, and he blamed Broderick for the loss.

    Terry, considered even by his friends as caustic and aggressive,[6] made some inflammatory remarks at a party convention in Sacramento, which Broderick read. He took offense, and sent his former friend, Terry, an equally vitriolic reply which proclaimed:

    ‘Terry to be a “damned miserable wretch” who was as corrupt as President James Buchanan and William Gwin, California’s other senator. “I have hitherto spoken of him as an honest man–as the only honest man on the bench of a miserable, corrupt Supreme Court–but now I find I was mistaken. I take it all back. He is just as bad as the others.”‘[7]

    Passions escalated; and, on September 13, 1859, Terry and Broderick, both expert marksmen, met outside of San Francisco city limits at Lake Merced for a duel.

    The pistols chosen for the duel had hair triggers, and Broderick’s discharged prior to the final “1-2-3″ count, firing prematurely into the ground. Thus disarmed, he was forced to stand as Terry shot him in the right lung. Terry at first believed the shot to be only a flesh wound, but it was mortal three days later. He was buried under a monument erected by the state in Lone Mountain Cemetery in San Francisco.

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    • Replies: @Hipster
    Lol @dueling
    "He was forced to stand there and be shot in the lung"

    Ask a black guy if hed just stand there. Haha what a weird custom.
  116. donut says:
    @Mr. Blank
    There is an "official" answer to this, sort of -- official in the sense that I've heard it numerous times in different contexts.

    The way I've always heard it is that in the 70s and 80s, EEEEvil tax-hating, budget-cutting whites slashed all the funding for arts enrichment in poor schools. As a result, newer generations of poor black youth were cut off from formal music training, and black traditions of instrumental virtuosity fell by the wayside. The result was the rise of rap, a style of music which had its origins in poor black kids musically improvising with the tools they had available -- their voices and their record players.

    I have no idea how accurate this is, but it's noteworthy that I always hear some version of it any time a white person wonders aloud, "how come there are no longer any black musical geniuses like Duke Ellington or Jimi Hendrix?"

    I think most of the black singers of the 50′s -70′s got their experience singing in church not schools. The little current black music that I’ve heard is pretty much shit to me. Everybody hits a dry spell , fashions come and go.

    Who’s heard of the Mills Brothers today ? But “The Mills Brothers, sometimes billed as The Four Mills Brothers, and originally known as The Four Kings of Harmony, were an American jazz and pop vocal quartet of the 20th century who made more than 2,000 recordings that combined sold more than 50 million copies, and garnered at least three dozen gold records. The Mills Brothers were inducted into The Vocal Group Hall of Fame in 1998.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9U75YC-jA

    Their career spanned four decades , the Rolling Stones of their day.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    +100 on the Mills Brothers. Great singers of beautiful songs.
    , @James Kabala
    My father's uncle was a big fan of the Mills Brothers.
  117. @Dave Pinsen
    The odd thing is that Radiohead ran away from that song, and from the whole genre, and started making weird, experimental music. All down hill after The Bends.

    I would say mostly uphill after the Bends. Amnesiac and Kid A are their best imho.

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  118. @Steve Sailer
    The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859.

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2841218953_ec16824d6a_b.jpg

    That was the duel between Sen. David Broderick and Chief Justice David Terry, considered the last duel involving important people in the US. To a large extent it reflected the growing tension between North and South, which often erupted in 1850s California, where there were immigrants from all parts of the country. Terry, the Southerner, was a notorious duelist who had been involved in several bowie knife scrapes. He killed Broderick but was acquitted of murder because it was considered a fair duel. In 1889, in a public restaurant, Terry attacked Judge Stephen Field, who had succeeded Broderick, and was killed by Field’s bodyguard. Field had also been a duelist in his youth, known to have had a jacket made with side pockets large enough to carry a pistol in each.

    I’ve read there are granite markers on the spots where Terry and Broderick stood when they fired.

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  119. Brutusale says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Perhaps the real reason Radiohead doesn't like doing "Creep" in concert is because Yorke can't reliably hit the high notes during the bridge?

    By way of analogy ... When I saw Queen in 1977, Freddie Mercury didn't even pretend to sing the famous operatic part of "Bohemian Rhapsody" -- they just played a tape while they went offstage.

    It's not impossible to do live -- I've heard a high school glee club do "Bohemian Rhapsody" and the school's star tenor sang Freddie's role without overdubs -- but by 1977 Mercury couldn't do it night after night on tour.

    Most of it was Roger Taylor, Queen drummer/vocalist and Taki’s sailing buddy, with input in the mid-range from guitarist Brian May.

    On the album version, there were 180 vocal overdubs in the operatic section.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Rhapsody

    Was that the 1977 Queen/Thin Lizzy tour, Steve? One of the best shows I ever saw at the old Boston Garden.

    http://www.queenonline.com/en/the-band/interviews/queen-1/queen-thin-lizzy/

    RIP, Freddie Mercury and Phil Lynott.

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  120. Vendetta says:
    @Mark Minter
    I see a lot of whole alpha/beta dichotomy in "white music" which is missing in other music. To me the only really true mainstream music type is Alternative. (country also, but I don't know anything about it and it stays in its own niche of the culture) At least for what has endured as "white music" has more or less followed this Progressive Rock->Punk->New Wave->Post New Wave->Grunge->Alternative. There was an offshoot of heavy rock->metal. But for the music that has flowed into the enduring idea of SWPL Culture, it has more or less followed the path I described.

    But certainly since 1990, and probably somewhat in the punk era, the feedstock from which the musicians came out of was beta males. Certainly there were the sigma broody creative types. But the bulk of these band guys probably had a rough time with girls in their teens. And even after their teens, even if the whole band thing started to kick in for them, there was this deep beta programming based on their fundamental experiences with girls and in the competition with the alpha-ish boys of their world.

    Then toss in blue pill conditioning about how women are such special little snowflakes to be loved and worshiped forever, that love!! was so special, that having a special princess girlfriend was the be all and end all of male life. And they are all told that girls like "sensitive nice guys that treat them well", "just be yourself" and you'll get your special princess.

    So even when Grunge boy or Alternative boy started to get the attention and effect from being on the stage, the deep blue pill programming and his beta past would kick in if he had some attractive girl fall into his lap. And he goes all nice, kiss ass, suck up, fails every shit test and she dumps him.

    Almost every alternative song has one of three themes (1 and the most common theme) I got my ass kicked by a girl and I am so miserable (2) The "alternative" version of how he just so loves her so much (3) Girls don't like me. Given the 80/20 pareto rule and then toss in the probability that this form of music appeals to the less masculine, then in that crowd you are probably pushing 85-90% beta.

    So really this Radiohead song is not some white person singing, it is a skinny beta male, probably a smart one who is completely correct at realizing that he sort of disgusts girls, a creep.

    There are exceptions; there are alpha bands, at least alpha front men. I think Kings of Leon is an example of one, maybe the Killers. But really it is getting to the point where alternative music can sort of disgust me because I can't stand to hear a beta bleating on and on about how "special she is and I love her sooo much", when I know that to treat a woman in this way is absolutely suicidal.

    I listen to this college station in my town constantly, actually some national award winner. They appear to have this Top 30 format of alternative songs. Maybe a song I like will be on a couple of times and I liked it. Then I look for the band on YouTube and it just kills the song for me. The singer is so beta and the video massively reinforces it.

    Two recent examples are Rollercoaster by Bleachers and then Hey Geronimo by Sheppard. Both frontmen are two of the most beta guys and when you see the video it reinforces just how suckup bleating beta the two are.

    The girl alternative songs are like maybe 3 themes (1) I love my alpha sooo much (2) My alpha did me wrong (3) I thought he was an alpha but he turned out to be a beta, so I dumped him. Girls would want to hear some guy pledge undying love to her but not some beta. And alpha boys just don't do the pledging of undying love. If pressed about "Do you love me?" he says "What?Whatever".

    So then with girls you get into this whole bell curve thing on looks and any girl that is < 1.5 SD from the left side of the mean of girl attractiveness doesn't get the alpha. (Basically HB 6 or below) She either gets crapped on by him after a short fling or she never gets near him. Almost all girls today within 1 SD of the mean could have tons of male attention, just not from the males she wants to give it to her. And a lot of girl alternative listeners really fit right into this slot, HB5s or 6s, on the intelligent side, and the fact the best men don't want jack to do with them eats them up. So she also has the self loathing of the beta male.

    Music, and particularly vocal music, is sexual status signalling. And it is hard wired directly into the emotions of sex and love (which is really about sex). We get it from birds and other animals that signal using the voice. Which is why most songs are about love(sex) and not about how much I like using my washing machine or what I kick I get out of programming javascript.

    The real magic seems to come when you get an Alpha male rockstar doing a song along ‘Beta’ sort of themes. Think of the enduring popularity of Axl Rose, the epitome of male alpha stardom, sitting down at a piano and singing November Rain.

    Women do actually want devotion and true love…they just want it from a real man. Not from a loser.

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    • Replies: @rod1963
    Bingo!!

    Women want a real man, not a wimpy beta male(loser) from the local cube farm. The beta male radiates weakness and desperation - and women can see it and they naturally despise it. It tells them, not husband or father material.

    Betas who do get lucky, it's usually because they are wealthy like Gates or Zuckerberg. Both got a serious creep thing going on that would normally keep women away from them if they were just some dilbert type in a cube.
    , @Anonymous
    also "Sweet Child O' Mine"
  121. New Wave music was an artifice for dorky guys to get laid by artsy wannabe women. It worked and as a collateral benefit provided some reasonably entertaining music for the rest of us.

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  122. How can you talk about “Creep” & “Teen Spirit” without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck’s “I’m a Loser?”

    It’s funny to see how the seeming one novelty hit wonder Beck has turned into a beloved figure in alt-rock/alternative for two decades. In fact, Kanye West’s post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a “jackass.”)

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    • Replies: @Abe

    Kanye West’s post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a “jackass.”)
     
    And yet Kanye West is like Dr. Albert Schweitzer compared to, oh, Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin. Obama only posthumously adopted them because white people were noticing their bad behavior. These sons Obama might have had were the sons-in-law he- HELL NO!- would never, ever had had.
    , @Abe

    How can you talk about “Creep” & “Teen Spirit” without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck’s “I’m a Loser?”
     
    Beck, the grand-daddy of all SWPL's! (Cobain doesn't count- by killing himself he proved his self-loathing was actually not of the fake, hypocritical SWPL variety). Extra points were using goofy, self-deprecating Spanglish in the song- "soy un perdedor".

    Maybe the biggest winner (given his meager actual talents) was Gavin Rossdale from BUSH, though, who went on to become- Mr. Gwen Stefani!!!, still married and I'm sure with two beautiful kids (SMILE!, blinding GLINT! off pearly white incisors).
    , @Harry Baldwin
    So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a “jackass.”)

    Yes, such a safe target that even Obama felt it was okay to criticize him. Kanye may be the only black man Obama has ever criticized. Were Trayvon and Michael Brown jackasses too? Apparently not.
    , @Lot

    How can you talk about “Creep” & “Teen Spirit” without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck’s “I’m a Loser?”
     
    I don't think any of these songs were mainly about self-loathing. Creep could just as much be about an above-average guy realizing he doesn't stand a chance with an extremely attractive woman. Smells Like Teen Spirit and Loser generally have word salad lyrics. ("In the time of chimpanzees I was the monkey")

    There are plenty of clearer examples of self loathing that were hits, like Adam's Song ("I can't wait, till I get home, to pass the time in my room alone") and Papa Roach's Last Resort, and really about 70% of nu metal hits.
    , @Dennis Dale
    "Loser" is completely different. "Teen Spirit" and "Creep" are intended as genuine expressions of self-loathing, with Cobain an earnest baring of the soul and Yorke taking on the role of a self-described "creep". But there's no irony or humor--no greater awareness. No wonder Radiohead is embarrassed by the track. Cobain was a major talent, no doubt, but I'm a little embarrassed for him, watching the Teen Spirit video, or seeing that familiar poster-photo of him staring pensively at us from behind his greasy locks, or seeing the clip of him in the documentary Curt and Courtney embarrassed to admit he loved his family. It so contradicted the pose!
    The ironic thing is you can't trust these guys any more than the obvious phonies. No one is so inauthentic as he whose overriding desire is to be authentic. He may have himself fooled, but that hardly makes him any more honest.

    Beck intends with his stream-of-consciousness style an ironic take on the subject of self-loathing. "Loser" is the antidote to "Creep" and the whole grunge conceit.

    , @Ezra
    Kanye West was right. Beck didn't deserve to win, even for lifetime achievement.

    I kind of assumed that the Scientologists organized a campaign to win the Grammy for Beck. But no one talks about it, so I must have made a mistake.
  123. Ivy says:
    @donut
    L'esprit de l'escalier

    German version: Treppenwitz (staircase joke or wit, or alternatively, realization of a bad joke), although I like the French version better for the notion of spirit (esprit)

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  124. andy says:

    Re microagressions, irony seems to me very much a western thing. Even East Asian cultures (which one can hardly regard as uncivilized) seems to lack it.

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    • Replies: @Curle
    "Even East Asian cultures (which one can hardly regard as uncivilized) seems to lack it." ---------------------

    Isn't the whole Psy thing irony?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
  125. White people can be self loathing and introspective and all that for sure. But go to any event that attracts large groups of white people drinking beer in plastic cups, and play journey and see what happens. “Don’t stop believin” is like the white national athem.

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  126. Kylie says:
    @Auntie Analogue
    Louis CK makes my skin crawl.

    @ Auntie Analogue

    “Louis CK makes my skin crawl.”

    Mine, too. I watched some of his shows b/c that’s what my husband chose for us to watch during dinner. Had no idea who he was but in no time, he made my flesh crawl. When I realized he’d sired spawn, I felt physically ill.

    Believe me, self-loathing as he is, he doesn’t loathe himself half as much as I loathe him.

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  127. Camlost says:

    The result was the rise of rap, a style of music which had its origins in poor black kids musically improvising with the tools they had available — their voices and their record players.

    I dunno, most of the early rappers (like Krs One or Kurtis Blow) trace the origins of rap to a country effectively devoid of white people.

    Early rap mimiced the Jamaican tradition of “toasting,” where a deejay would get a sound system and tour (sometimes rural) areas and Dancehalls with a single track playing, and the people of the area would get on to the microphone of the sound system and rhyme over the same track, competing to see who could innovate and motivate the crowd the most. Kool Herc was one of the most influential figures in this, he was an immigrant from Jamaica.

    The earliest rappers had to actually perform at parties and build a following and then hope to get airplay on local NYC radio, which only played rap late at night or in mixes since rap didn’t command money and a commercial following yet.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I thought a lot of early rappers said the first rap they ever heard was in that Blondie song Rapture: http://youtu.be/pHCdS7O248g
  128. Dumbo says:

    Another alternative hit song of the 90′s was “Loser” by Beck, who recently won the Grammies. And then Morrissey/The Smiths. Irony mixed with self-loathing is a whole subset of white pop/alternative music, which you don’t really find in black music, perhaps because blacks are not so much prone to introspection/introversion in general.

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    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    I don't think Morrissey is crippled with too much self-loathing; I get the impression he's quite okay with himself and has been from the start. Morrissey enjoys being a hambone and he does it with wit. His loathing is directed outwards, as it should be:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKoS5X4SMrY

    That song could have been called "You Don't Know Me", if Ray Charles hadn't already taken the title or "The Anglosphere and its Discontents" if Freud hadn't already ripped that off.

    I saw that video years ago but it looked a little different to me now. It made me think of the people of eastern Ukraine, with their own defiance and mixed identities. I guess it helps that it looks like Morrissey is performing in a bomb shelter.

    , @Dave Pinsen
    The Smiths broke up in 1988. But arguably their oeuvre became bigger culturally as time went on.
  129. Abe says: • Website
    @Earl Lemongrab
    How can you talk about "Creep" & "Teen Spirit" without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck's "I'm a Loser?"

    It's funny to see how the seeming one novelty hit wonder Beck has turned into a beloved figure in alt-rock/alternative for two decades. In fact, Kanye West's post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a "jackass.")

    Kanye West’s post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a “jackass.”)

    And yet Kanye West is like Dr. Albert Schweitzer compared to, oh, Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin. Obama only posthumously adopted them because white people were noticing their bad behavior. These sons Obama might have had were the sons-in-law he- HELL NO!- would never, ever had had.

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  130. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Mr. Blank
    There is an "official" answer to this, sort of -- official in the sense that I've heard it numerous times in different contexts.

    The way I've always heard it is that in the 70s and 80s, EEEEvil tax-hating, budget-cutting whites slashed all the funding for arts enrichment in poor schools. As a result, newer generations of poor black youth were cut off from formal music training, and black traditions of instrumental virtuosity fell by the wayside. The result was the rise of rap, a style of music which had its origins in poor black kids musically improvising with the tools they had available -- their voices and their record players.

    I have no idea how accurate this is, but it's noteworthy that I always hear some version of it any time a white person wonders aloud, "how come there are no longer any black musical geniuses like Duke Ellington or Jimi Hendrix?"

    how come there are no longer any black musical geniuses like Duke Ellington or Jimi Hendrix?

    Was Hendrix really a musical genius or was he only a musical mediocrity who was fortunate to be black in an almost all-white industry and was thus a novelty?

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  131. @donut
    I think most of the black singers of the 50's -70's got their experience singing in church not schools. The little current black music that I've heard is pretty much shit to me. Everybody hits a dry spell , fashions come and go.

    Who's heard of the Mills Brothers today ? But "The Mills Brothers, sometimes billed as The Four Mills Brothers, and originally known as The Four Kings of Harmony, were an American jazz and pop vocal quartet of the 20th century who made more than 2,000 recordings that combined sold more than 50 million copies, and garnered at least three dozen gold records. The Mills Brothers were inducted into The Vocal Group Hall of Fame in 1998."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9U75YC-jA

    Their career spanned four decades , the Rolling Stones of their day.

    +100 on the Mills Brothers. Great singers of beautiful songs.

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  132. Way OT, but have many people seen this story?

    “A male student at an unnamed college in Oregon was investigated for sexual assault. But even after he had cleared his name, he was still prohibited from having contact with a female student—denying him access to his classes, residence, and job—because he merely resembled the man who had committed rape.”

    http://reason.com/blog/2015/02/19/male-student-banned-from-campus-because

    Am I the only one who finds this story, as related originally by a Harvard Law professor, a little hard to believe? Doesn’t it seem like too perfect a story — and a too perfectly outrageous example of PC running amok? My BS detector is in the red zone.

    Of course, if it’s anything like the truth, God help us.

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  133. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    ‘The Air that I Breathe’ by the Hollies always takes me back to 1974, the year that it was released, and always provokes in me a memory of the industrial/political troubles that afflicted the UK in that year. For some reason I find it strongly evocative of that era, the guitar chords seem to sing out the essence of those times.
    The era of Ted Heath, electrical power cuts, coal miners on strike, sugar rationing, the ‘three day week’ , the oil crisis, 20% inflation. Strange and evocative times.
    The Hollies were, perhaps, the last vestige of golden era rock bands from the 60s still working back in 74, and had upgraded their sound to be in tune with those times.

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  134. Priss Factor [AKA "K. Arujo"] says:

    Nirvana sounds like reaction to illicit street drugs.

    Radiohead sounds like reaction to big pharma prescription drugs.

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  135. sc says:

    Yes, white people make depressing music now because that expresses how they perceive their current state. The end of the Cold Car signaled the start of the racial cold war in earnest in the 90s. That’s where Grunge came from.

    Without an external threat, the plutocrats felt safe to move ahead with their divide and conquer strategy. And a big part of that is telling white people, constantly, in every possible way, how immoral they are. And how awesome everyone else is.

    …Listen to Van Halen’s “Diver Down” (1982) and you are going to hear over the top exuberance. Released at the climax of the Cold War. Writing depressing music is not innately characteristic to white people.

    Black people once made depressing music. You may have heard of the genre. It’s called the Blues.

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  136. Hipster says:
    @Sunbeam
    Ummmm I'm really not too sure who exactly Radiohead is. I didn't really like Nirvana either.

    Only band from that era (or close to it) I liked was Alice in Chains.

    I'm pretty sure I have heard this song, but I never really paid any attention to it.

    It's that big really?

    Have we really diverged this much? I mean to me a seminal song would be something like "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC (saying that because it seems to me that one is where they parted ways with blues rock, except for "covering" their own stuff in a lot of ways).

    This song is big? Really? I can think of more people who are into the Blue Man Group than this.

    It's just... I dunno where I live you can pretty much count on even people that hate country knowing who the hot acts are in country. Heavy Metal (or whatever passes for it) is still big.

    All these new acts that are called things like "Death Metal" or "Thrash" or whatever it is. Things like Nightwish (think I have that name right). I have played things like Schelmish, Corvus Corax, and Daft Punk, and people seem to think it is ok.

    But Radiohead? No one listens to that. It gets played on the radio but I don't think I have ever heard this band referenced in a conversation.

    They were big really? I've heard he name but just assumed they were something like a hair band from the 80's with a different schtick. But in the end utterly disposable and forgettable.

    This song and this band really?

    Radihead has sold 30 million albums worldwide. Creep, a song released in the mid 90s, has 78 million youtube views. I have no idea about any country artists. Where I come from, NY, people often say “I like any kind if kusic, except country.” Its so common it is a cliche on dating sites etc.

    No one likes metal either. Where do you live, pray? Have you had significant contact with Blue State Whites? We clearly are a separate group man.

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    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    "No one likes metal either. Where do you live, pray? Have you had significant contact with Blue State Whites? We clearly are a separate group man."

    I live in the southern US. Hold your applause.

    That is my point though, I think it's pretty obvious that things have gone beyond bifurcation, to trifurcation, to whatever arbitrary number anyone would care to select.

    I have a point with this. It's pretty obvious with the talk about flyover country, red versus blue states, and the like.

    Namely that the divisions between whites are pretty significant too. Old news I guess, but this kind of division goes way back to the origins of the country (literally if you read Albion's Children). Another excellent book is Colin Woodard's American Nations book, which was excellent till he got to the 20th century and began conflating the folkways of New England with being next to godliness. Of course what do you expect from someone descended or at least strongly identifying with Puritans?

    Jayman has some really excellent material on this sort of thing (though I never will accept some of his conclusions like nurture doesn't do anything - at all).

    But say we somehow reversed or stopped immigration. The old regional differences are still there and don't seem to be fading, even though obvious things like accents are dissolving away.

    And just as a personal reflection. I'd love to be as successful as any number of distinguished "Yankees" I could name. I'd love to have accomplished great things intellectually like ... heck Josiah Willard Gibbs, Feynman (can we count him? NYC is as Yankee as it gets though Boston could argue about it), and lots lots more.

    But for the life of me, I can't see how appreciating Louis CK or Radiohead gets me any of that.

    I mean if you can explain to me how A -> B in this case, I'd suppress my gag reflex. I get that teams are usually better than individuals, that being macho is a waste of time, that hard work and education are virtues to be striven for.

    But for the life of me, what part does Blue State culture have to play in that? If anything you guys seem like you are dancing on the crypts and tombs of the guys that actually accomplished all I've mentioned?

    But I see totally different cultures (like Asians) that accomplish the same things without the baggage you guys are toting now.

    Things that have intrinsic value can't be denied, their truth cannot be ignored. (unless you are brain dead).

    But I'm not getting that from you. Literature, music, mindset, just a different flavor of bullshit.

    And a darn putrid strain of it too.

    And just perusing the pages of history casually, the Civil War ended in 1865. That is just not much time as these ethnic and geographic conflicts go. A historian in 2500 wouldn't blink an eyelash if a separatist conflict erupted in 2065. Just the blink of an eye as these things go really.

    Not that I am prophesying mind you, just that you can look at things and ponder the possible roads that might go this way or that.

    Plus your mom dresses you funny, and you have crap taste in music. And tell that significant other of yours you want a sandwich, A.S.A.P.
    , @Greenstalk

    Radihead has sold 30 million albums worldwide. Creep, a song released in the mid 90s, has 78 million youtube views.

    No one likes metal either
     
    Linkin Park has sold 60 million albums and their song 'Numb" has 220 million youtube views. So SOMEBODY likes metal. Or nu-metal at any rate.

    On the subject of rap, gangsta rap is deeply crappy. But rap can be effective when done right, as a white guy and Japanese-America guy demonstrate here. Click 'show more" and find the song "In The End".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQLYacC3Wag
  137. Abe says: • Website
    @Chang
    Patrice O'Neal was awesome. Probably my favorite black comic of the last 20 years.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    He used to joke about dying of diabetes, too. Which is what killed him. Funny dude.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren't white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty for complaining while you're a rich white guy. Jesus.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    The only other black celebrities I’ve gotten this vibe from who look less than, like, 1/2 white are the Wayans brothers. Never saw WHITE CHICKS so I can’t attest how mean-spirited it was, but they haven’t shied away from playing goofy, loser characters (BLANK MAN), and their movies seem to have broadly multi-racial casts who get along in a truly easy-going/post-race manner.

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  138. Whiskey says: • Website

    That guitar bit from Creep echoes the one in Bowie’s “Modern Love.”

    As for the lack of 90s era and onwards anthems, that is the function of the birth dearth, the lack of young people in enough numbers to create a musical movement.

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  139. @nglaer
    Just came back from watching the SNL thing on TV. Chris Rock introducing Eddie Murphy. It's rich. We're better off with black people here, Michael Brown nonsense notwithstanding. Not 100 million of them, but. . . You Steve are the probably the only race realist guy who recognizes, acknowledges that.

    Black people are as American as any of us. In my family we still invite our fuckup cousin to Thanksgiving.

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    • Replies: @Hereward
    That's pretty much the same point made in the first scene of the first episode of The Wire.
  140. Hipster says:
    @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "I imagine a lot of people reading this will be curious about such an incident. If they were to visit Wikipedia, here’s what they’d find:"

    Oddly, the text I included subsequently, did not appear in the original post (had something to do with the brackets I used to denote a quotation, I guess). Here it is for real, this time:


    At that time, just prior to the start of the American Civil War, the Democratic Party of California was divided between pro-slavery and "Free Soil" factions. Broderick led the Free Soilers. One of his closest friends was David S. Terry, formerly the Chief Justice of the California State Supreme Court, an advocate of the extension of slavery into California. Terry lost his re-election bid because of his pro-slavery platform, and he blamed Broderick for the loss.

    Terry, considered even by his friends as caustic and aggressive,[6] made some inflammatory remarks at a party convention in Sacramento, which Broderick read. He took offense, and sent his former friend, Terry, an equally vitriolic reply which proclaimed:


    'Terry to be a "damned miserable wretch" who was as corrupt as President James Buchanan and William Gwin, California's other senator. "I have hitherto spoken of him as an honest man--as the only honest man on the bench of a miserable, corrupt Supreme Court--but now I find I was mistaken. I take it all back. He is just as bad as the others."'[7]

    Passions escalated; and, on September 13, 1859, Terry and Broderick, both expert marksmen, met outside of San Francisco city limits at Lake Merced for a duel.

    The pistols chosen for the duel had hair triggers, and Broderick's discharged prior to the final "1-2-3" count, firing prematurely into the ground. Thus disarmed, he was forced to stand as Terry shot him in the right lung. Terry at first believed the shot to be only a flesh wound, but it was mortal three days later. He was buried under a monument erected by the state in Lone Mountain Cemetery in San Francisco.

    Lol @dueling
    “He was forced to stand there and be shot in the lung”

    Ask a black guy if hed just stand there. Haha what a weird custom.

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  141. @Dumbo
    Another alternative hit song of the 90's was "Loser" by Beck, who recently won the Grammies. And then Morrissey/The Smiths. Irony mixed with self-loathing is a whole subset of white pop/alternative music, which you don't really find in black music, perhaps because blacks are not so much prone to introspection/introversion in general.

    I don’t think Morrissey is crippled with too much self-loathing; I get the impression he’s quite okay with himself and has been from the start. Morrissey enjoys being a hambone and he does it with wit. His loathing is directed outwards, as it should be:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKoS5X4SMrY

    That song could have been called “You Don’t Know Me”, if Ray Charles hadn’t already taken the title or “The Anglosphere and its Discontents” if Freud hadn’t already ripped that off.

    I saw that video years ago but it looked a little different to me now. It made me think of the people of eastern Ukraine, with their own defiance and mixed identities. I guess it helps that it looks like Morrissey is performing in a bomb shelter.

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  142. Brutusale says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to ...

    It's interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they'd be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It's a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

    The best vocal chops are in metal these days

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_l4Ab5FRwM

    Straight white males should like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpJAmlnBxoA

    or this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwGSAFarHRg

    Our Scandinavian friends are on the cutting edge of metal with vocal chops, but this Norwegian kid is out there, doing the occasional original with a band but making a nice living with 600K Youtube subscribers:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnoQ_Y6FUqE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzK-EqyWlt0

    His Bohemian Rhapsody:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG8XDs8v3J0

    As well as Iron Maiden’s Bruce Dickinson:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sif4TcI1_w

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  143. Abe says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to ...

    It's interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they'd be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It's a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

    But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

    Obsolescence + technical intricacy = GAY-GAY-GAAAAY!! (cf. opera, Broadway)

    If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they’d be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    Yeah, but that ratio is probably skewed by the fact that Strummer and Reed look like toads, not real rock gods (no homo). Robert Plant does top Rolling Stone’s reader’s poll of best rock singers (though he doesn’t crack the Top 10 of RS’s official, SCIENCE!-tific poll, where golden throated, like-never-to-be-seen-again marvels like John Lennon and Bob Dylan deservedly round out the top 7- God, Jann Wenner is such a rock & roll homer!).

    Actually, Mercury comes out below Jagger in the official Rolling Stone poll. I’d probably pick him as best all time, but your comments about him not matching his studio feats live (corroborating other things I’ve read) knock him down a few notches. As a Zep bootleg connoisseur, though, I can attest every singing highlight Plant achieved in the studio he matched live at least half a dozen times, and actually exceeded 2-3 times. The only other singer I can say rivals and exceeds him is Steve Perry, which is a grudging admission from someone not a big fan of Journye’s cheeseball material.

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  144. guest007 says:

    I am surprised that no one has linked to the Scala and Kolacny Brothers cover of Creep that was used in the trailer for The Social Network.

    As a footnote, Scala and Kolacny Brothers’ cover of Metallic’s Nothing Else Matters was used in the trailer of Zero Dark Thirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Rg6nuZoQM

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  145. Drogger says: • Website

    Non-violent resistance is the ultimate in passive aggressive behavior.

    Which is probably why the Civil Rights Movement and Ghandi succeeded in toppling Jim Crow and the British in India, respectively.

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  146. Curle says:
    @andy
    Re microagressions, irony seems to me very much a western thing. Even East Asian cultures (which one can hardly regard as uncivilized) seems to lack it.

    “Even East Asian cultures (which one can hardly regard as uncivilized) seems to lack it.” ———————

    Isn’t the whole Psy thing irony?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

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  147. rod1963 says:
    @Vendetta
    The real magic seems to come when you get an Alpha male rockstar doing a song along 'Beta' sort of themes. Think of the enduring popularity of Axl Rose, the epitome of male alpha stardom, sitting down at a piano and singing November Rain.

    Women do actually want devotion and true love...they just want it from a real man. Not from a loser.

    Bingo!!

    Women want a real man, not a wimpy beta male(loser) from the local cube farm. The beta male radiates weakness and desperation – and women can see it and they naturally despise it. It tells them, not husband or father material.

    Betas who do get lucky, it’s usually because they are wealthy like Gates or Zuckerberg. Both got a serious creep thing going on that would normally keep women away from them if they were just some dilbert type in a cube.

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  148. Abe says: • Website
    @Earl Lemongrab
    How can you talk about "Creep" & "Teen Spirit" without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck's "I'm a Loser?"

    It's funny to see how the seeming one novelty hit wonder Beck has turned into a beloved figure in alt-rock/alternative for two decades. In fact, Kanye West's post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a "jackass.")

    How can you talk about “Creep” & “Teen Spirit” without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck’s “I’m a Loser?”

    Beck, the grand-daddy of all SWPL’s! (Cobain doesn’t count- by killing himself he proved his self-loathing was actually not of the fake, hypocritical SWPL variety). Extra points were using goofy, self-deprecating Spanglish in the song- “soy un perdedor”.

    Maybe the biggest winner (given his meager actual talents) was Gavin Rossdale from BUSH, though, who went on to become- Mr. Gwen Stefani!!!, still married and I’m sure with two beautiful kids (SMILE!, blinding GLINT! off pearly white incisors).

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  149. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anon
    Nobody has brought up the very odd thing about Patrice O'Neal and his comments. This is a guy who suffered for years from diabetes but couldn't pull himself out of a gluttony cycle. He found solace through stuffing his face with cheeseburgers and died because of it.

    Once you get on insulin it gets more difficult, because insulin makes you hungrier and it makes you bigger.

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  150. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @yaqub the mad scientist
    Nobody's pulled off warbling when he needs to like Plant, even at the early stage of his career. One of the things I noticed from various youtube footage/audio boots (now that even Led Wallet has about given up on stopping them) is how after 1972 Plant simply lost half a register. I certainly like a lot of their later stuff, but he pretty much quit trying to hit that zone again.

    I wonder how well Freddy Mercury handled that bit of vocal histrionics in Another One Bites The Dust live. Or how well Adam Lambert does now.

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  151. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Sunbeam
    I think there are some regional and class things going on here that haven't been mentioned at all here yet.

    Louis CK (However you are supposed to spell that)? WhTF watches him? Larry the Cable Guy and David Chapelle on the other hand, usually the day after a Chapelle show or a Cable guy special, I'd hear someone talking about him. I've never heard anyone talking about Louis CK, just you know going about the day's business of living.

    It is what it is I guess. But this whole notion that this Creep song (and Radiohead) is some kind of anthem...

    Well maybe it is. For you. Kind of like I had never heard of "mumble" movies before looking at this site.

    But I am struck by something. It's like there was some kind of big divergence after 1980 or so, and not just between white and black music, but among the white audience as well.

    I have to echo some comments on here that black people seem to have forgotten how to play instruments. Well that is obviously not true, because you can find some really good black musicians... if you look real, real hard.

    The problem is that the gigantic black acts, the ones that mega sell and have a big presence in the public mind, well the problem is that they ... suck.

    Like the Supreme Court justice who said he knew porn "when he saw it," it just seems like you can tell when music has something, when it is good. You may not like the piece itself, but there is something that cannot be denied.

    And in general I haven't heard that since about 1980 with black music, at least the big selling acts.

    Something odd happened about then that isn't much analyzed as far as pop culture goes.

    Just to kind of rip off Dylan Thomas, when someone's words "fork lightning" you can hear it, whether it is Motown or Bohemian Rhapsody.

    And this Creep song doesn't fork lightning.

    And geez. Bob Dylan compared to Neil Young. Umm that kind of seems like comparing Godzilla to one of the Raptors from Jurassic Park.

    I watch Louis C.K.’s show, but I think I laughed 0 or 1 times all season. He’s a comedian who makes an alleged comedy that is almost never funny. And critics eat it up.

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  152. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Uptown Resident
    This may be a generational divide. Gen-Xers and older prefer Radiohead's rockier stuff. Millennials are post-rock.

    I didn't pay any attention to Radiohead until "In Rainbows" came out. The song "Reckoner" is still probably my favorite piece of theirs.

    Thom Yorke is an interesting guy. He's vegan. He's married to his college girlfriend, and they have two kids. His wife wrote her dissertation on the iconographic tradition of Dante's "Divine Comedy." Yorke shuns his celebrity and has an awkward relationship with the media.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOoCixFA8OI

    It could be a generational thing.

    One thing I’ve noticed, though, is there doesn’t seem to have been much change in alt-rock in maybe 20 years or more. I turn to the indie channel on FIOS and there are songs from this year or last that wouldn’t have been out of place in the ’90s.

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  153. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Santoculto
    I like two songs of Radiohead and especially the most famous of them, Fake Plastic Trees. Just like because of the melody and the complement of the tearful voice of the singer.

    That’s a good song too. Another from The Bends.

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  154. Mr. Anon says:

    “BB753 says:

    BTW, the song is a rip-off of The Hollies’ hit “The Air that I Breathe”. They sued and won.”

    They shouldn’t have. “Creep” is hardly a rip-off of “The Air that I Breathe”.

    “As for O’Neal, why are Blacks so patronizing toward rock music? It’s not as if Black music today is anything but crap. Back in the 60′s a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups.”

    A good point. While it is certainly true that blacks had a lot to do with the foundation of Rock and Roll, white musicians drew on a lot of other influences as well – classical, hillbilly, english folk music, mexican, etc – many of which came to dominate the sound. It’s difficult to identify much black influence in a song like – “Paint it Black”, for instance – or in almost anything by Kansas, King Crimson, Talk Talk, Supertramp, or any number of any other bands.

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  155. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Camlost

    The result was the rise of rap, a style of music which had its origins in poor black kids musically improvising with the tools they had available — their voices and their record players.
     
    I dunno, most of the early rappers (like Krs One or Kurtis Blow) trace the origins of rap to a country effectively devoid of white people.

    Early rap mimiced the Jamaican tradition of "toasting," where a deejay would get a sound system and tour (sometimes rural) areas and Dancehalls with a single track playing, and the people of the area would get on to the microphone of the sound system and rhyme over the same track, competing to see who could innovate and motivate the crowd the most. Kool Herc was one of the most influential figures in this, he was an immigrant from Jamaica.

    The earliest rappers had to actually perform at parties and build a following and then hope to get airplay on local NYC radio, which only played rap late at night or in mixes since rap didn't command money and a commercial following yet.

    I thought a lot of early rappers said the first rap they ever heard was in that Blondie song Rapture: http://youtu.be/pHCdS7O248g

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    • Replies: @Camlost
    Rapper's Delight predated Rapture by at least one year.

    If you watch the video for Rapture it featured Fab 5 Freddy, who had already been on the rap scene for some time. Rapture's claim to fame is that it's the first "rap" song to hit #1 on a chart.
    , @Lot
    Unlikely. A year before Rapture, Rapper's Delight was a big hit:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapper%27s_Delight

    It is sad to listen to the catchy and cheerful first wave of rap knowing that it lasted only about 12 years, while awful gangsta rap has been going strong for more than two decades with no end in sight.

    I think the best rap song from the early years was by another cute young white girl:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGL0JMa3DWo
  156. Kylie says:
    @yaqub the mad scientist
    Nobody's pulled off warbling when he needs to like Plant, even at the early stage of his career. One of the things I noticed from various youtube footage/audio boots (now that even Led Wallet has about given up on stopping them) is how after 1972 Plant simply lost half a register. I certainly like a lot of their later stuff, but he pretty much quit trying to hit that zone again.

    “Nobody’s pulled off warbling when he needs to like Plant, even at the early stage of his career. One of the things I noticed from various youtube footage/audio boots (now that even Led Wallet has about given up on stopping them) is how after 1972 Plant simply lost half a register.”

    Plant had a phenomenal voice with terrific breath control. Singers lose their top notes as they age and I’m sure in Plant’s case, his recreational habits didn’t help his voice.

    Another with terrific breath control, not surprisingly, was Chet Baker. The same qualities that made him such a gifted horn player also made him a marvelous singer. It’s a pity most people don’t realize how hard it is to sing softly. His phrasing, breath control and dynamics are amazing.

    http://youtu.be/jvXywhJpOKs

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  157. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Dumbo
    Another alternative hit song of the 90's was "Loser" by Beck, who recently won the Grammies. And then Morrissey/The Smiths. Irony mixed with self-loathing is a whole subset of white pop/alternative music, which you don't really find in black music, perhaps because blacks are not so much prone to introspection/introversion in general.

    The Smiths broke up in 1988. But arguably their oeuvre became bigger culturally as time went on.

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    • Replies: @Dumbo
    Yes, the group ended in the late 80 but their influence was felt for years after that. Morrissey still sings with moderate success, although he seems to have found a different audience. For some unfathomable reason, apparently he became popular with latinos, which one would think would be the opposite of his style.
  158. Mr. Anon says:

    Rap provided a way for completely talentless, unmusical people to style themselves “musicians”, just as modern art provided a way for talentless, unartistic people to style themselves “artists”.

    It is No Musician Left Behind.

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  159. Some early rap numbers:

    Dylan obviously

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7WAoepiuCg

    Jefferson Airplane

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL7HiGD0JcQ

    Stones

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2wttYva1AQ

    Aerosmith obviously

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKttENbsoyk

    It’s a cheeky gimmick that sort-of works once or twice for an individual group, but I can’t believe anyone can listen to it extensively. And I think the term “rap” goes back to Woody Guthrie days and earlier. Numbers like “Talkin’ Fishin’ Blues” were called “raps” IIRC.

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  160. @Earl Lemongrab
    How can you talk about "Creep" & "Teen Spirit" without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck's "I'm a Loser?"

    It's funny to see how the seeming one novelty hit wonder Beck has turned into a beloved figure in alt-rock/alternative for two decades. In fact, Kanye West's post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a "jackass.")

    So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a “jackass.”)

    Yes, such a safe target that even Obama felt it was okay to criticize him. Kanye may be the only black man Obama has ever criticized. Were Trayvon and Michael Brown jackasses too? Apparently not.

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    • Replies: @Dumbo
    Isn't it strange to have a president commenting so much on pop culture and calling someone a "jackass"? then again, Obama has said worse things.
  161. Camlost says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    I thought a lot of early rappers said the first rap they ever heard was in that Blondie song Rapture: http://youtu.be/pHCdS7O248g

    Rapper’s Delight predated Rapture by at least one year.

    If you watch the video for Rapture it featured Fab 5 Freddy, who had already been on the rap scene for some time. Rapture’s claim to fame is that it’s the first “rap” song to hit #1 on a chart.

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  162. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Whiskey
    Creep was important to people who wore plaid shirts and lived in Seattle, maybe. I can think of far more important songs: Anarchy in the UK, Train in Vain, Whip It, Eminence Front, Song 2, I Wanna Be Sedated, Beautiful Day, True, by respectively the Sex Pistols, Clash, Devo, The Who, Blur, Ramones, U2, and Spandau Ballet.

    Heck Fleetwood Mac matters more to White people than Radiohead and Creep.

    ONeal is onto something though. Intensely atomized individual White people yearn for intense feelings through music. AC DC Shook Me All Night Long is just the flipside of say, True or U2s semi Christian stuff.

    Very different from current Black mysic excluding Jazz guys like Ramsey Lewis Le Fleur, aimed at White audiences.

    Whiskey,

    I like a lot of the songs mentioned. I think Eminence Front is a great song, but to my knowledge it’s never received much attention.

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  163. Lot says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Radiohead since OK Computer or whatever album they started doing the experimental stuff is like the rock equivalent of The Wire or something - the critics lavish praise on it but how many people actually enjoy it?

    It's like some of the modern noise symphonies impose on their patrons sometimes. Maybe later Radiohead's prominence is a CIA conspiracy, like that abstract art business Steve has blogged about.

    I think The Wire was amazing. I’ve watched the whole series twice, and look forward to doing so again in five years or so.

    Radiohead, outside of Creep, ranges from bland to bad.

    A few times I tried listening to the top songs of the year list from Pitchfork, and they were almost universally bad and in the same way as Radiohead.

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    • Replies: @donut
    If you have the series on DVD listen to the commentaries as well .
  164. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Lot

    Creep was important to people who wore plaid shirts and lived in Seattle, maybe. I can think of far more important songs: Anarchy in the UK, Train in Vain, Whip It, Eminence Front, Song 2, I Wanna Be Sedated, Beautiful Day, True, by respectively the Sex Pistols, Clash, Devo, The Who, Blur, Ramones, U2, and Spandau Ballet.
     
    Other than Song 2, those were all songs from another generation. Song 2 is really great, but lacks the emotion of Creep.

    You all who don't remember how big it was when it came out were not watching MTV or listening to "Modern Rock" radio stations back then.

    I'm sorry your formative years seem to have been the late 70's/early 80's when mainstream rock was dreck like AC/DC, the Ramones, and the Sex Pistols, plus a bunch of past-their-prime late 60's bands. Steve made the right call back then getting into New Wave.

    Weren’t The Ramones and Sex Pistols New Wave bands?

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  165. Lot says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    I thought a lot of early rappers said the first rap they ever heard was in that Blondie song Rapture: http://youtu.be/pHCdS7O248g

    Unlikely. A year before Rapture, Rapper’s Delight was a big hit:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapper%27s_Delight

    It is sad to listen to the catchy and cheerful first wave of rap knowing that it lasted only about 12 years, while awful gangsta rap has been going strong for more than two decades with no end in sight.

    I think the best rap song from the early years was by another cute young white girl:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGL0JMa3DWo

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  166. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Sunbeam
    I think there are some regional and class things going on here that haven't been mentioned at all here yet.

    Louis CK (However you are supposed to spell that)? WhTF watches him? Larry the Cable Guy and David Chapelle on the other hand, usually the day after a Chapelle show or a Cable guy special, I'd hear someone talking about him. I've never heard anyone talking about Louis CK, just you know going about the day's business of living.

    It is what it is I guess. But this whole notion that this Creep song (and Radiohead) is some kind of anthem...

    Well maybe it is. For you. Kind of like I had never heard of "mumble" movies before looking at this site.

    But I am struck by something. It's like there was some kind of big divergence after 1980 or so, and not just between white and black music, but among the white audience as well.

    I have to echo some comments on here that black people seem to have forgotten how to play instruments. Well that is obviously not true, because you can find some really good black musicians... if you look real, real hard.

    The problem is that the gigantic black acts, the ones that mega sell and have a big presence in the public mind, well the problem is that they ... suck.

    Like the Supreme Court justice who said he knew porn "when he saw it," it just seems like you can tell when music has something, when it is good. You may not like the piece itself, but there is something that cannot be denied.

    And in general I haven't heard that since about 1980 with black music, at least the big selling acts.

    Something odd happened about then that isn't much analyzed as far as pop culture goes.

    Just to kind of rip off Dylan Thomas, when someone's words "fork lightning" you can hear it, whether it is Motown or Bohemian Rhapsody.

    And this Creep song doesn't fork lightning.

    And geez. Bob Dylan compared to Neil Young. Umm that kind of seems like comparing Godzilla to one of the Raptors from Jurassic Park.

    “And geez. Bob Dylan compared to Neil Young. Umm that kind of seems like comparing Godzilla to one of the Raptors from Jurassic Park.”

    I guess everyone has different tastes but I do think Dylan became largely only a music journalist’s artist post mid 60′s. This probably had to do with rock music becoming a more instrumental virtuoso genre starting in the late 60′s instead of a more songwriter’s genre like it was earlier in the 60′s.

    But I remember reading a Lou Reed interview from the mid 70′s where he raves on and on about Neil Young’s guitar playing. I bet no big time acts from the era like Zepplin, Bowie, or the more obscure acts who nonetheless thought they were on par with the big acts like Lou Reed were really worried any longer about keeping up with any Dylan innovations, but most probably watched to make sure they were keeping up with some of the stuff Neil Young was doing.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Dylan's Rolling Thunder tour of 1974 was a huge deal at the time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwuBly4Pye4

  167. Annek says:

    Here’s a cover of “Creep” by Carrie Manolakos. I like it a lot, but some people say that she sings too loudly at the end.

    Here’s the link, in case I didn’t embed the video correctly: https://www.youtube.com/embed/aZ5ZclZTeTU

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  168. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Nowhere near as good as Pearl Jam, arguably the best alternative/grunge band of all time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S73ypK3As8I

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  169. Lot says:
    @Earl Lemongrab
    How can you talk about "Creep" & "Teen Spirit" without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck's "I'm a Loser?"

    It's funny to see how the seeming one novelty hit wonder Beck has turned into a beloved figure in alt-rock/alternative for two decades. In fact, Kanye West's post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a "jackass.")

    How can you talk about “Creep” & “Teen Spirit” without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck’s “I’m a Loser?”

    I don’t think any of these songs were mainly about self-loathing. Creep could just as much be about an above-average guy realizing he doesn’t stand a chance with an extremely attractive woman. Smells Like Teen Spirit and Loser generally have word salad lyrics. (“In the time of chimpanzees I was the monkey”)

    There are plenty of clearer examples of self loathing that were hits, like Adam’s Song (“I can’t wait, till I get home, to pass the time in my room alone”) and Papa Roach’s Last Resort, and really about 70% of nu metal hits.

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    • Replies: @Dumbo
    I remember "Welcome to my Life" by Simple Plan, which was a little more than self-loathing.
    Some songs by Green Day too. Well, teenage angst and all that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt0WP9ZBNiY
  170. Michelle says:

    The contrast between love songs such as Otis Redding’s, “That’s How Strong My Love Is” and Bo Diddly’s, “Oh You Pretty Thing” and today’s misogynistic rap music is startling. I think Black culture has always been the canary in the coal mine. Blacks were vulnerable right after they gained civil rights. Much like a 21 year old, newly able to drink, Blacks were disproportionately affected and damaged by hippie culture. Drugs and alcohol, free sex and especially, feminism, had a more profoundly detrimental effect on Black people than it did on whites.

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  171. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Vendetta
    The real magic seems to come when you get an Alpha male rockstar doing a song along 'Beta' sort of themes. Think of the enduring popularity of Axl Rose, the epitome of male alpha stardom, sitting down at a piano and singing November Rain.

    Women do actually want devotion and true love...they just want it from a real man. Not from a loser.

    also “Sweet Child O’ Mine”

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  172. Dumbo says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a “jackass.”)

    Yes, such a safe target that even Obama felt it was okay to criticize him. Kanye may be the only black man Obama has ever criticized. Were Trayvon and Michael Brown jackasses too? Apparently not.

    Isn’t it strange to have a president commenting so much on pop culture and calling someone a “jackass”? then again, Obama has said worse things.

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  173. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @eah
    Patrice is a fairly uncommon name. Another distinguished Patrice:

    Patrice Rushen -- Forget Me Nots.

    O’Neil was named after Patrice Lumumba.

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  174. @Mark Minter
    I see a lot of whole alpha/beta dichotomy in "white music" which is missing in other music. To me the only really true mainstream music type is Alternative. (country also, but I don't know anything about it and it stays in its own niche of the culture) At least for what has endured as "white music" has more or less followed this Progressive Rock->Punk->New Wave->Post New Wave->Grunge->Alternative. There was an offshoot of heavy rock->metal. But for the music that has flowed into the enduring idea of SWPL Culture, it has more or less followed the path I described.

    But certainly since 1990, and probably somewhat in the punk era, the feedstock from which the musicians came out of was beta males. Certainly there were the sigma broody creative types. But the bulk of these band guys probably had a rough time with girls in their teens. And even after their teens, even if the whole band thing started to kick in for them, there was this deep beta programming based on their fundamental experiences with girls and in the competition with the alpha-ish boys of their world.

    Then toss in blue pill conditioning about how women are such special little snowflakes to be loved and worshiped forever, that love!! was so special, that having a special princess girlfriend was the be all and end all of male life. And they are all told that girls like "sensitive nice guys that treat them well", "just be yourself" and you'll get your special princess.

    So even when Grunge boy or Alternative boy started to get the attention and effect from being on the stage, the deep blue pill programming and his beta past would kick in if he had some attractive girl fall into his lap. And he goes all nice, kiss ass, suck up, fails every shit test and she dumps him.

    Almost every alternative song has one of three themes (1 and the most common theme) I got my ass kicked by a girl and I am so miserable (2) The "alternative" version of how he just so loves her so much (3) Girls don't like me. Given the 80/20 pareto rule and then toss in the probability that this form of music appeals to the less masculine, then in that crowd you are probably pushing 85-90% beta.

    So really this Radiohead song is not some white person singing, it is a skinny beta male, probably a smart one who is completely correct at realizing that he sort of disgusts girls, a creep.

    There are exceptions; there are alpha bands, at least alpha front men. I think Kings of Leon is an example of one, maybe the Killers. But really it is getting to the point where alternative music can sort of disgust me because I can't stand to hear a beta bleating on and on about how "special she is and I love her sooo much", when I know that to treat a woman in this way is absolutely suicidal.

    I listen to this college station in my town constantly, actually some national award winner. They appear to have this Top 30 format of alternative songs. Maybe a song I like will be on a couple of times and I liked it. Then I look for the band on YouTube and it just kills the song for me. The singer is so beta and the video massively reinforces it.

    Two recent examples are Rollercoaster by Bleachers and then Hey Geronimo by Sheppard. Both frontmen are two of the most beta guys and when you see the video it reinforces just how suckup bleating beta the two are.

    The girl alternative songs are like maybe 3 themes (1) I love my alpha sooo much (2) My alpha did me wrong (3) I thought he was an alpha but he turned out to be a beta, so I dumped him. Girls would want to hear some guy pledge undying love to her but not some beta. And alpha boys just don't do the pledging of undying love. If pressed about "Do you love me?" he says "What?Whatever".

    So then with girls you get into this whole bell curve thing on looks and any girl that is < 1.5 SD from the left side of the mean of girl attractiveness doesn't get the alpha. (Basically HB 6 or below) She either gets crapped on by him after a short fling or she never gets near him. Almost all girls today within 1 SD of the mean could have tons of male attention, just not from the males she wants to give it to her. And a lot of girl alternative listeners really fit right into this slot, HB5s or 6s, on the intelligent side, and the fact the best men don't want jack to do with them eats them up. So she also has the self loathing of the beta male.

    Music, and particularly vocal music, is sexual status signalling. And it is hard wired directly into the emotions of sex and love (which is really about sex). We get it from birds and other animals that signal using the voice. Which is why most songs are about love(sex) and not about how much I like using my washing machine or what I kick I get out of programming javascript.

    Actually (pace Roissy), “beta” behavior–when it goes with real world success–has been working for men for a really long time. I’m thinking of the Western love lyric tradition where the male speaker exalts the female beloved while wallowing in his own inadequacy. Dante and Petrarch pioneered this style for the modern West in the late middle ages.

    Quality guys are ones who have alpha standing (financial/professional accomplishment), but have personal behaviors that some call beta (kind, loyal, bookish, alternative, capable of self-scrutiny). By this standard, Thom Yorke is undeniably a catch.

    This is the main reason I think the alpha/beta distinction, as it’s currently used, is completely off target. Successful men will attract women. Nice guys will usually be capable of a relationship. Successful, nice guys are the ideal.

    Occasionally I’ll hear Gotye’s “Somebody that I used to know” and laugh thinking about Lawrence Auster’s “the video is distasteful” warning when linking to the music video in a post, “A music video about beta males.” http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021796.html

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Spot on.
    , @Chris
    You are completely correct about the silly alpha/beta distinction as often presented. Trying to relentlessly shoehorn complex behavior into two buckets makes no sense.
    , @manton
    Yeah, well, Petrach pined after a married woman ("Laura") his entire life and never even spoke to her, much less anything else.

    So, alpha/beta may be a bit binary and limiting, but the example of Petrach is woefully inapt to illustrate the point.
  175. @anon
    "And geez. Bob Dylan compared to Neil Young. Umm that kind of seems like comparing Godzilla to one of the Raptors from Jurassic Park."

    I guess everyone has different tastes but I do think Dylan became largely only a music journalist's artist post mid 60's. This probably had to do with rock music becoming a more instrumental virtuoso genre starting in the late 60's instead of a more songwriter's genre like it was earlier in the 60's.

    But I remember reading a Lou Reed interview from the mid 70's where he raves on and on about Neil Young's guitar playing. I bet no big time acts from the era like Zepplin, Bowie, or the more obscure acts who nonetheless thought they were on par with the big acts like Lou Reed were really worried any longer about keeping up with any Dylan innovations, but most probably watched to make sure they were keeping up with some of the stuff Neil Young was doing.

    Dylan’s Rolling Thunder tour of 1974 was a huge deal at the time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwuBly4Pye4

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  176. Dumbo says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    The Smiths broke up in 1988. But arguably their oeuvre became bigger culturally as time went on.

    Yes, the group ended in the late 80 but their influence was felt for years after that. Morrissey still sings with moderate success, although he seems to have found a different audience. For some unfathomable reason, apparently he became popular with latinos, which one would think would be the opposite of his style.

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  177. @onetwothree
    Some early rap numbers:

    Dylan obviously

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7WAoepiuCg

    Jefferson Airplane

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL7HiGD0JcQ

    Stones

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2wttYva1AQ

    Aerosmith obviously

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKttENbsoyk

    It's a cheeky gimmick that sort-of works once or twice for an individual group, but I can't believe anyone can listen to it extensively. And I think the term "rap" goes back to Woody Guthrie days and earlier. Numbers like "Talkin' Fishin' Blues" were called "raps" IIRC.

    “Buffalo Gals”

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  178. Dumbo says:
    @Lot

    How can you talk about “Creep” & “Teen Spirit” without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck’s “I’m a Loser?”
     
    I don't think any of these songs were mainly about self-loathing. Creep could just as much be about an above-average guy realizing he doesn't stand a chance with an extremely attractive woman. Smells Like Teen Spirit and Loser generally have word salad lyrics. ("In the time of chimpanzees I was the monkey")

    There are plenty of clearer examples of self loathing that were hits, like Adam's Song ("I can't wait, till I get home, to pass the time in my room alone") and Papa Roach's Last Resort, and really about 70% of nu metal hits.

    I remember “Welcome to my Life” by Simple Plan, which was a little more than self-loathing.
    Some songs by Green Day too. Well, teenage angst and all that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt0WP9ZBNiY

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  179. donut says:
    @rustbeltreader
    Money for nothin. Indian prime minister’s monogrammed suit sold for near $700,000 at auction.
    When it comes to religion India is a millionaire and America is a pauper and fashion is a religion.

    AN offer of something for nothing usually emanates from a Nigerian web address, or one of those breathless late-night home shopping channel ...Down Under News

    Jul 2, 2014 - Is Nigeria bifurcating between the teeming urban corridor of Lagos-Ibadan, and the Boko Haram-infested northeast, where ... Nigeria: With Abuja blast, Boko Haram creeps to center of capital (CSM) Legendary, mythical and imaginary scary creatures http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigerian+Nigwilly

    As Rome burns... "This proposal comes just two years after an arbitrator ruled the city of St. Louis must pay the Rams $700 million for upgrades to their current stadium and 20 years after the city ponied up $600 million to attract the team to St. Louis in the first place.

    Countless studies show such taxpayer-funded stadium projects have zero economic impact, simply giving billionaire owners—largely freed from their greatest operating costs—more disposable revenue with which to pay millionaire athletes even higher salaries."
    http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/12/missouri-offers-to-hand-out-500-million
    Reese Bobby: How'd stock-car racing get it's start?
    Ricky Bobby: Uh, bootleggers in Prohibition, they had to have cars fast enough to outrun the fed, then they started racing each other!
    Reese Bobby: [after a moment] That's right. [throws another bucket on Ricky]
    Ricky Bobby: If I was right, why'd you throw another bucket on me?!
    Reese Bobby: Well I filled up three. Now, there's nothing like driving to avoid jail. Nothing hones your mind and your instincts like necessity. So I taped a kilo of cocaine underneath the car and called the boys in blue. Now, the way I figure it, you got about 2 minutes before they show up, and you do five to ten. So, what's it gonna be? Fear...or prison?

    [Our policy here is to generally allow free exchange of ideas, including highly controversial ones, in the comment-threads. However, the number of your totally off-topic comments, often quite rambling or with lengthy unrelated quotes, is getting to be a serious problem.

    Henceforth, if you wish your comments to be published rather than simply trashed, please reduce their quantity and substantially improve their quality and topicality. You might consider establishing your own blogsite where your personal musings on all sorts of random things might be more appropriate.]

    Douche bag.

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  180. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @Earl Lemongrab
    How can you talk about "Creep" & "Teen Spirit" without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck's "I'm a Loser?"

    It's funny to see how the seeming one novelty hit wonder Beck has turned into a beloved figure in alt-rock/alternative for two decades. In fact, Kanye West's post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a "jackass.")

    “Loser” is completely different. “Teen Spirit” and “Creep” are intended as genuine expressions of self-loathing, with Cobain an earnest baring of the soul and Yorke taking on the role of a self-described “creep”. But there’s no irony or humor–no greater awareness. No wonder Radiohead is embarrassed by the track. Cobain was a major talent, no doubt, but I’m a little embarrassed for him, watching the Teen Spirit video, or seeing that familiar poster-photo of him staring pensively at us from behind his greasy locks, or seeing the clip of him in the documentary Curt and Courtney embarrassed to admit he loved his family. It so contradicted the pose!
    The ironic thing is you can’t trust these guys any more than the obvious phonies. No one is so inauthentic as he whose overriding desire is to be authentic. He may have himself fooled, but that hardly makes him any more honest.

    Beck intends with his stream-of-consciousness style an ironic take on the subject of self-loathing. “Loser” is the antidote to “Creep” and the whole grunge conceit.

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  181. @Steve Sailer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HydvceA1PAI

    According to Wikipedia, Radiohead got nailed for using the same chord progression as The Air That I Breathe. But how many distinct, listenable chord progressions are there? A few hundred? A few thousand? Fewer than the number of songs, I bet.

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  182. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @rustbeltreader
    Money for nothin. Indian prime minister’s monogrammed suit sold for near $700,000 at auction.
    When it comes to religion India is a millionaire and America is a pauper and fashion is a religion.

    AN offer of something for nothing usually emanates from a Nigerian web address, or one of those breathless late-night home shopping channel ...Down Under News

    Jul 2, 2014 - Is Nigeria bifurcating between the teeming urban corridor of Lagos-Ibadan, and the Boko Haram-infested northeast, where ... Nigeria: With Abuja blast, Boko Haram creeps to center of capital (CSM) Legendary, mythical and imaginary scary creatures http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigerian+Nigwilly

    As Rome burns... "This proposal comes just two years after an arbitrator ruled the city of St. Louis must pay the Rams $700 million for upgrades to their current stadium and 20 years after the city ponied up $600 million to attract the team to St. Louis in the first place.

    Countless studies show such taxpayer-funded stadium projects have zero economic impact, simply giving billionaire owners—largely freed from their greatest operating costs—more disposable revenue with which to pay millionaire athletes even higher salaries."
    http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/12/missouri-offers-to-hand-out-500-million
    Reese Bobby: How'd stock-car racing get it's start?
    Ricky Bobby: Uh, bootleggers in Prohibition, they had to have cars fast enough to outrun the fed, then they started racing each other!
    Reese Bobby: [after a moment] That's right. [throws another bucket on Ricky]
    Ricky Bobby: If I was right, why'd you throw another bucket on me?!
    Reese Bobby: Well I filled up three. Now, there's nothing like driving to avoid jail. Nothing hones your mind and your instincts like necessity. So I taped a kilo of cocaine underneath the car and called the boys in blue. Now, the way I figure it, you got about 2 minutes before they show up, and you do five to ten. So, what's it gonna be? Fear...or prison?

    I think I speak for everyone when I ask, what the hell was that? And I thought the lyrics to “Loser” were obscure!

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  183. @Chang
    Patrice O'Neal was awesome. Probably my favorite black comic of the last 20 years.

    Key & Peele are good, but they both had a white parent, so bit different.

    Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits, but he never seemed angry or bitter. Even that clip there shows it, I think. He liked white people.

    He used to joke about dying of diabetes, too. Which is what killed him. Funny dude.

    Meanwhile the comic I loathe the most is Louis CK. I hate the bitter, angry, self-loathing, left-wing white comics. Louis CK, Marc Maron. So boring and predictable and depressing. I get it, you hate white people and wish you weren't white so you could complain about your life without feeling guilty for complaining while you're a rich white guy. Jesus.

    “Patrice would joke about anything. Nothing was off limits”

    because he can and is allowed to…..i wonder why?

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  184. @majneb
    I think its more accurate to say that "Creep" appeals to Generation X whites, rather than white people in general.

    Yeah. I’d never heard of the song before, and am not sure that I have heard of Radiohead. When I was in high school in the late 1990s, the big thing in my crowd was neo-swing and jump blues.
    Any kids into something like that “Creep” song I would have considered Big “L” scrubs–that is assuming I even noticed their existence.
    The guys in my set were into cafe-racing motorcycles (The Crest from La Canada to Wrightwood was considered a 100-mile-an-hour road), street rods and airplanes, and the girls liked vigorous, athletic dancing. The bands we danced to–and the dancing was a big part of it–were Cherry Poppin’ Daddies, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and The Brian Setzer Orchestra.

    http://youtu.be/pUWP8d930mg

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    • Replies: @Space Ghost
    Sorry man but you sound like a huge tool. The kids who listened to that music in *my* high school were the prototypes of the fedora-tipping neckbeard meme that is all over the internet - mimicking the surface style but none of the actual cool of the 1940s swing era. Which isn't that surprising - it's very difficult to be cool as an 18 year old. But to still talk about it 15 years later, and put yourself above people who listened to other music...rough.
  185. anon says: • Disclaimer

    If I recall, Dylan had a big mid 70′s comeback with the release of Blood on the Tracks and the Basement Tapes and tour but then largely vanished again from any deep significance with what was going on with the most impassioned rock fans. (He had mostly an emeritus status at the time, which he largely retains today.)

    Maybe the best way to describe the differing statuses of Dylan and Neil Young is this. I was a part of the early Gen X’er group who came of age as music fans in the early to mid 80′s (after either Dylan or Neil Young’s hey-days). But contemporary music mostly sucked so myself and most of my peers mostly listened to stuff from the late 60′s and 70′s. And I would say Neil Young probably hovered around the top 10 all-time favorite artists of almost all the mostly college-prep kids who I mostly hung out with who were into music. But probably more impressively, he also probably hovered around the top 10 for the dudes heading to the factory right after high school- that is if they didn’t drop out first. You’d see many of these kids through the years sporting either an Ozzy t-shirt or Neil Young one. ……And like I said, Dylan, if he had any real status at all, had mostly a respected emeritus status with both sets of 80′s kids. Nobody really listened to him.

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  186. Hereward says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Black people are as American as any of us. In my family we still invite our fuckup cousin to Thanksgiving.

    That’s pretty much the same point made in the first scene of the first episode of The Wire.

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  187. Camlost says:

    It is sad to listen to the catchy and cheerful first wave of rap knowing that it lasted only about 12 years, while awful gangsta rap has been going strong for more than two decades with no end in sight.

    Rap absolutely died when it left New York.

    The West Coast made it very violent and the South turned hip hop lyrics into nothing but a ghetto refrain chanted over and over and over…

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  188. donut says:
    @Lot
    I think The Wire was amazing. I've watched the whole series twice, and look forward to doing so again in five years or so.

    Radiohead, outside of Creep, ranges from bland to bad.

    A few times I tried listening to the top songs of the year list from Pitchfork, and they were almost universally bad and in the same way as Radiohead.

    If you have the series on DVD listen to the commentaries as well .

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  189. @donut
    I think most of the black singers of the 50's -70's got their experience singing in church not schools. The little current black music that I've heard is pretty much shit to me. Everybody hits a dry spell , fashions come and go.

    Who's heard of the Mills Brothers today ? But "The Mills Brothers, sometimes billed as The Four Mills Brothers, and originally known as The Four Kings of Harmony, were an American jazz and pop vocal quartet of the 20th century who made more than 2,000 recordings that combined sold more than 50 million copies, and garnered at least three dozen gold records. The Mills Brothers were inducted into The Vocal Group Hall of Fame in 1998."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9U75YC-jA

    Their career spanned four decades , the Rolling Stones of their day.

    My father’s uncle was a big fan of the Mills Brothers.

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  190. donut says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Even these days when music isn't that big a deal, how many famous actresses marry alternative rock stars?

    Girls like sensitive artistic boys who sing about how nobody likes them.

    I’m a sensitive mutherf**ker . Can I get some of that good s**t too ?

    Read More
  191. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Uptown Resident

    It’s interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey.
     
    SO true.

    Trent Reznor is an example of a revered terrible singer. He writes interesting, moving music--but it's amazing that he gets away with singing it in addition to writing it.

    Yeah, real interesting, moving stuff:

    http://www.lyrics007.com/Nine%20Inch%20Nails%20Lyrics/Closer%20Lyrics.html

    I want to f*ck you like an animal
    I want to feel you from the inside

    Read More
  192. donut says:
    @Anon
    Nobody has brought up the very odd thing about Patrice O'Neal and his comments. This is a guy who suffered for years from diabetes but couldn't pull himself out of a gluttony cycle. He found solace through stuffing his face with cheeseburgers and died because of it.

    Diabetes is a motherf**ker , I don’t have it , thank god but I wouldn’t judge anybody who has to deal with it .

    Read More
  193. donut says:

    OK I’ve got to put this great artiste in here too :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoaLCc2jR_g

    I know I put Freddie Fender”s version in before but she wrote it and deserves the credit for her genius .

    Read More
    • Replies: @donut
    Nirvana ? The only approach to Nirvana they ever found was beating their meat .And dope .
  194. CJ says:
    @BB753
    Good point about micro- agressions, Steve.
    I've always hated this song, but the real point of "Creep" is that it's a beta's lament, pining for a pedestalized girl :

    "When you were here before
    Couldn't look you in the eye
    You're just like an angel
    Your skin makes me cry"

    It's painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric.

    BTW, the song is a rip-off of The Hollies' hit "The Air that I Breathe". They sued and won.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Air_That_I_Breathe

    As for O'Neal, why are Blacks so patronizing toward rock music? It's not as if Black music today is anything but crap. Back in the 60's a Black like Jimmy Hendrix could play in a band with two Whites. The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player. Blacks were open then about what they could learn from Whites. Now they act like spoiled children, putting down the grown-ups.

    The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player.

    The stoners at my high school listened to Are You Experienced? and Axis: Bold as Love until the vinyl grooves wore out. I don’t remember any keyboard tracks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @donut
    I had tickets to see Hendrix at Mosque Theatre in Newark in April of 1968 . But they killed MLK that week and my folks wouldn't let us go . There were no troubles in Newark that week , apparently they believed in his nonviolent philosophy up in that bitch . I heard afterwards that he gave the concert and only a few hundred people showed up . They all moved down in front and he gave a great performance .
  195. donut says:
    @CJ
    The Jimmy Hendrix Experience owed a lot to its English keyboard player.

    The stoners at my high school listened to Are You Experienced? and Axis: Bold as Love until the vinyl grooves wore out. I don't remember any keyboard tracks.

    I had tickets to see Hendrix at Mosque Theatre in Newark in April of 1968 . But they killed MLK that week and my folks wouldn’t let us go . There were no troubles in Newark that week , apparently they believed in his nonviolent philosophy up in that bitch . I heard afterwards that he gave the concert and only a few hundred people showed up . They all moved down in front and he gave a great performance .

    Read More
  196. donut says:
    @donut
    OK I've got to put this great artiste in here too :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoaLCc2jR_g

    I know I put Freddie Fender"s version in before but she wrote it and deserves the credit for her genius .

    Nirvana ? The only approach to Nirvana they ever found was beating their meat .And dope .

    Read More
  197. donut says:

    What would you prefer , a hundred Picasso shit sprays on canvas or one or two cave paintings by an unknown genius lost in the mists of time ?

    Read More
  198. Sunbeam says:
    @Hipster
    Radihead has sold 30 million albums worldwide. Creep, a song released in the mid 90s, has 78 million youtube views. I have no idea about any country artists. Where I come from, NY, people often say "I like any kind if kusic, except country." Its so common it is a cliche on dating sites etc.

    No one likes metal either. Where do you live, pray? Have you had significant contact with Blue State Whites? We clearly are a separate group man.

    “No one likes metal either. Where do you live, pray? Have you had significant contact with Blue State Whites? We clearly are a separate group man.”

    I live in the southern US. Hold your applause.

    That is my point though, I think it’s pretty obvious that things have gone beyond bifurcation, to trifurcation, to whatever arbitrary number anyone would care to select.

    I have a point with this. It’s pretty obvious with the talk about flyover country, red versus blue states, and the like.

    Namely that the divisions between whites are pretty significant too. Old news I guess, but this kind of division goes way back to the origins of the country (literally if you read Albion’s Children). Another excellent book is Colin Woodard’s American Nations book, which was excellent till he got to the 20th century and began conflating the folkways of New England with being next to godliness. Of course what do you expect from someone descended or at least strongly identifying with Puritans?

    Jayman has some really excellent material on this sort of thing (though I never will accept some of his conclusions like nurture doesn’t do anything – at all).

    But say we somehow reversed or stopped immigration. The old regional differences are still there and don’t seem to be fading, even though obvious things like accents are dissolving away.

    And just as a personal reflection. I’d love to be as successful as any number of distinguished “Yankees” I could name. I’d love to have accomplished great things intellectually like … heck Josiah Willard Gibbs, Feynman (can we count him? NYC is as Yankee as it gets though Boston could argue about it), and lots lots more.

    But for the life of me, I can’t see how appreciating Louis CK or Radiohead gets me any of that.

    I mean if you can explain to me how A -> B in this case, I’d suppress my gag reflex. I get that teams are usually better than individuals, that being macho is a waste of time, that hard work and education are virtues to be striven for.

    But for the life of me, what part does Blue State culture have to play in that? If anything you guys seem like you are dancing on the crypts and tombs of the guys that actually accomplished all I’ve mentioned?

    But I see totally different cultures (like Asians) that accomplish the same things without the baggage you guys are toting now.

    Things that have intrinsic value can’t be denied, their truth cannot be ignored. (unless you are brain dead).

    But I’m not getting that from you. Literature, music, mindset, just a different flavor of bullshit.

    And a darn putrid strain of it too.

    And just perusing the pages of history casually, the Civil War ended in 1865. That is just not much time as these ethnic and geographic conflicts go. A historian in 2500 wouldn’t blink an eyelash if a separatist conflict erupted in 2065. Just the blink of an eye as these things go really.

    Not that I am prophesying mind you, just that you can look at things and ponder the possible roads that might go this way or that.

    Plus your mom dresses you funny, and you have crap taste in music. And tell that significant other of yours you want a sandwich, A.S.A.P.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Curle
    Re: the cultural roots of Radiohead popularity and your bifurcation debate with @Hipster from NYC.

    As a person with deep roots in the South, and a Radiohead fan, I can't help but note a couple of things:

    1) The South is the most traditionally British of all the regions of the US (at least genetically) and Radiohead is, for modern music terms, characteristically British. Their sound, and Coldplay's variant of it, has been wildly popular there for some time. If you are southern and of British descent, as I am, you should recognize this music as genetically familiar in the same way you should recognize British folk music as genetically familiar (assuming genetic familiarity extended to music is a real thing). I believe one can trace a line of influence between traditional British folk music, early 20th century British symphonic music (Holst) down to Fairport Convention, Pink Floyd, Radiohead and Coldplay. British folk music is virtually indistinguishable from traditional Appalachian music and much more like it than present day country and western music. In other words, your ancestors would listen to today's country and likely find it unfamiliar. Not so with British folk music.

    2) Athens GA was a hotspot for bands that were precursors to this Alt. rock stuff back in the 80s. Radiohead is not unlike REMs Murmur album.

    3) I'd bet there are more southerners than you realize who enjoy British popular music like Radiohead.
  199. Svigor says:

    I always liked Pearl Jam better than Nirvana, though it’s not like it took much. I find it funny that Cobain attacked Vedder for being disingenuous or “selling out” or whatever. Cobain probably offed himself after a thorough personal inventory.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I thought Cobain's issue wasn't with Vedder but critics who put Pearl Jam in the grunge category. I think he called them "the Buffalo Springfield of the '90s".
  200. Ezra says:
    @Earl Lemongrab
    How can you talk about "Creep" & "Teen Spirit" without mentioning the third leg of the 1990s blond male self-loathing triumvirate, Beck's "I'm a Loser?"

    It's funny to see how the seeming one novelty hit wonder Beck has turned into a beloved figure in alt-rock/alternative for two decades. In fact, Kanye West's post-Grammy insult toward Beck provoked the biggest outpouring of liberal white anger toward a black guy in ages. So much so, in fact, that one suspected a lot of generalized anger being directed toward a fairly safe target (even Obama has gone on record as calling Kanye a "jackass.")

    Kanye West was right. Beck didn’t deserve to win, even for lifetime achievement.

    I kind of assumed that the Scientologists organized a campaign to win the Grammy for Beck. But no one talks about it, so I must have made a mistake.

    Read More
  201. @Major Problem
    Yeah. I'd never heard of the song before, and am not sure that I have heard of Radiohead. When I was in high school in the late 1990s, the big thing in my crowd was neo-swing and jump blues.
    Any kids into something like that "Creep" song I would have considered Big "L" scrubs--that is assuming I even noticed their existence.
    The guys in my set were into cafe-racing motorcycles (The Crest from La Canada to Wrightwood was considered a 100-mile-an-hour road), street rods and airplanes, and the girls liked vigorous, athletic dancing. The bands we danced to--and the dancing was a big part of it--were Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and The Brian Setzer Orchestra.

    http://youtu.be/pUWP8d930mg

    Sorry man but you sound like a huge tool. The kids who listened to that music in *my* high school were the prototypes of the fedora-tipping neckbeard meme that is all over the internet – mimicking the surface style but none of the actual cool of the 1940s swing era. Which isn’t that surprising – it’s very difficult to be cool as an 18 year old. But to still talk about it 15 years later, and put yourself above people who listened to other music…rough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Major Problem
    Grow up and get over the fact not everybody liked the same kind of music or liked the same groups of people in high school--and they can maintain those prejudices as they move through life.
    Incidentally, what kind of person uses childish insults like "huge tool"? I guess somebody like you who claims to know a Navy SEAL, as if that were a big deal. I know quite a few SEALs; I ran XTERRA Guam competing against NSWU-1 members a few years ago and often hung out with them at the Horse and Cow in Tamuning. (I ran into some of the same guys in AFG.) Nobody but nobody plays something like Radiohead at a Navy bar. But Royal Crown Review? Sure.
    One of the guys who danced to neo-swing in high school was on the development team for MCSOCOM Det 1. Two others serve with FORECON. Another is a pilot with 3rd MAW. And another is an aviator with CVW-8 and not long ago got off a nine-month deployment that included striking ISIS targets. I doubt any of them have ever worn neck beards and fedoras (I had to look up what those were).
  202. Paul says:

    Here’s a pussy-whipped national anthem from back in the day, written by white folks, performed by a black dude. It’s no accident it was featured in “something about mary,” which was a comedy about a wee white jewish pussy-whip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwx8Voq373A

    I think, as a white dude, I like “creep,” as well as these songs because it takes me back to my days of pining for the head cheerleader/homecoming queen at my high school. I was a sophomore, she was a senior. Blonde, 6’1″, beautiful face, and perfect body. Believe me, she was astounding.

    I’d stare at her when she walked by, because I didn’t care what she thought of me, since I was a lowly sophomore, I knew her boyfriend attended college, and she looked at me like I was a roach who needed to be stepped on.

    Amongst girls in my own age bracket, I think I did fine. I wasn’t a creep, but I know the feeling from Aryan Blondie, two years older than me, giving me the stink-eye. I could easily see me walking home afterwards, singing “creep” to myself. When I aimed lower (girls my own age) life got way better.

    Also, to be fair, the sophomore girls who thought they might have a chance with me when I was a senior faired no better than I did. I thought they were kind of creepy myself.
    They weren’t “alpha” girls, and, as opposed to young men’s overriding tastes today, the idea of no pubic hair repulsed me.

    I think “creep” just brings to mind a faux dramatic phase in most white dudes lives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Curle
    "Also, to be fair, the sophomore girls who thought they might have a chance with me when I was a senior faired no better than I did. I thought they were kind of creepy myself.
    They weren’t “alpha” girls, ." ----------------------------------------

    I presume by 'alpha girls' you are referring to sexually aggressive women? Whether because of my generation, the way I was raised (which included a very sexually tame private school where many of the girls had older boyfriends), the way I was trained by my long time high school girlfriend (lots of pleading + lots of attention from me = only the slightest of concessions) kept me mostly unaware of the existence of sexually aggressive women. I had my eyes opened, a little, in college when, during a party, the top campus hottie dating the biggest man on campus (it was a small school) entered my room, shut the door and immediately started getting frisky. This was a woman I barely knew (though she was drunk). I was both dumbfounded and 100% certain that it was some kind of candid camera type practical joke. I was, even at that time generally, having my traditional experiences with women, dating, begging , being treated like a yo-yo and getting very little in exchange for a lot of effort.

    Lessons learned: 1) women are not subject to easy categorization; 2) you cannot infer the preferences or even the behavior of one from the behavior of others; 3) there's no accounting for taste; and 4) women do the picking. This was all new information to me at the time.
  203. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Microaggressions aren’t a hallmark of “high civilization” as much as they’re the hallmark of low-T effeminate men, and women. The most passive aggressive people you’ll ever meet are native South Asians. Probably due to being half Irish, I agree with the blacks that it is a very irritating trait, and more found in SWPLs than other white people. If someone is passive aggressive with me, I become instantly immersed with fantasies of punching their teeth down their mouth.

    Read More
  204. Curle says:
    @Sunbeam
    "No one likes metal either. Where do you live, pray? Have you had significant contact with Blue State Whites? We clearly are a separate group man."

    I live in the southern US. Hold your applause.

    That is my point though, I think it's pretty obvious that things have gone beyond bifurcation, to trifurcation, to whatever arbitrary number anyone would care to select.

    I have a point with this. It's pretty obvious with the talk about flyover country, red versus blue states, and the like.

    Namely that the divisions between whites are pretty significant too. Old news I guess, but this kind of division goes way back to the origins of the country (literally if you read Albion's Children). Another excellent book is Colin Woodard's American Nations book, which was excellent till he got to the 20th century and began conflating the folkways of New England with being next to godliness. Of course what do you expect from someone descended or at least strongly identifying with Puritans?

    Jayman has some really excellent material on this sort of thing (though I never will accept some of his conclusions like nurture doesn't do anything - at all).

    But say we somehow reversed or stopped immigration. The old regional differences are still there and don't seem to be fading, even though obvious things like accents are dissolving away.

    And just as a personal reflection. I'd love to be as successful as any number of distinguished "Yankees" I could name. I'd love to have accomplished great things intellectually like ... heck Josiah Willard Gibbs, Feynman (can we count him? NYC is as Yankee as it gets though Boston could argue about it), and lots lots more.

    But for the life of me, I can't see how appreciating Louis CK or Radiohead gets me any of that.

    I mean if you can explain to me how A -> B in this case, I'd suppress my gag reflex. I get that teams are usually better than individuals, that being macho is a waste of time, that hard work and education are virtues to be striven for.

    But for the life of me, what part does Blue State culture have to play in that? If anything you guys seem like you are dancing on the crypts and tombs of the guys that actually accomplished all I've mentioned?

    But I see totally different cultures (like Asians) that accomplish the same things without the baggage you guys are toting now.

    Things that have intrinsic value can't be denied, their truth cannot be ignored. (unless you are brain dead).

    But I'm not getting that from you. Literature, music, mindset, just a different flavor of bullshit.

    And a darn putrid strain of it too.

    And just perusing the pages of history casually, the Civil War ended in 1865. That is just not much time as these ethnic and geographic conflicts go. A historian in 2500 wouldn't blink an eyelash if a separatist conflict erupted in 2065. Just the blink of an eye as these things go really.

    Not that I am prophesying mind you, just that you can look at things and ponder the possible roads that might go this way or that.

    Plus your mom dresses you funny, and you have crap taste in music. And tell that significant other of yours you want a sandwich, A.S.A.P.

    Re: the cultural roots of Radiohead popularity and your bifurcation debate with from NYC.

    As a person with deep roots in the South, and a Radiohead fan, I can’t help but note a couple of things:

    1) The South is the most traditionally British of all the regions of the US (at least genetically) and Radiohead is, for modern music terms, characteristically British. Their sound, and Coldplay’s variant of it, has been wildly popular there for some time. If you are southern and of British descent, as I am, you should recognize this music as genetically familiar in the same way you should recognize British folk music as genetically familiar (assuming genetic familiarity extended to music is a real thing). I believe one can trace a line of influence between traditional British folk music, early 20th century British symphonic music (Holst) down to Fairport Convention, Pink Floyd, Radiohead and Coldplay. British folk music is virtually indistinguishable from traditional Appalachian music and much more like it than present day country and western music. In other words, your ancestors would listen to today’s country and likely find it unfamiliar. Not so with British folk music.

    2) Athens GA was a hotspot for bands that were precursors to this Alt. rock stuff back in the 80s. Radiohead is not unlike REMs Murmur album.

    3) I’d bet there are more southerners than you realize who enjoy British popular music like Radiohead.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    "1) The South is the most traditionally British of all the regions of the US (at least genetically) and Radiohead is, for modern music terms, characteristically British. Their sound, and Coldplay’s variant of it, has been wildly popular there for some time. If you are southern and of British descent, as I am, you should recognize this music as genetically familiar in the same way you should recognize British folk music as genetically familiar (assuming genetic familiarity extended to music is a real thing). I believe one can trace a line of influence between traditional British folk music, early 20th century British symphonic music (Holst) down to Fairport Convention, Pink Floyd, Radiohead and Coldplay. British folk music is virtually indistinguishable from traditional Appalachian music and much more like it than present day country and western music. In other words, your ancestors would listen to today’s country and likely find it unfamiliar. Not so with British folk music."

    You've got a reasonable premise (though I'd think New England culturally can claim to at least have as much "English" influence as the American south).

    But you lose me after that. Pink Floyd has roots in British Folk Music? I just don't buy that one. I vaguely remember the first Pink Floyd album (the one with the pot plants or whatever on the cover). Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall are a lot more familiar to me.

    I'd actually think the Kinks fit your description more than Pink Floyd, as regards British Concert Hall music, if not British Symphonic music (they really stuck their thumbs in a lot of pies) . I really know nothing about Coldplay; I've heard a few songs, but I had the same enthusiasm for them I had for Britney Spears. Not really sure what Fairport Convention is or was.

    I'd agree with you about modern country music. That stuff died a long time ago. Basically now... let's just not talk about it, ok? It is basically pop from 20 years ago, sung or narrated with an accent that people who actually worked in cotton fields never possessed, with a heaping helping of hip hop becoming more present every year.

    I think Garth Brooks was the Herald of Destruction as far as country goes.

    You really couldn't insult this genre enough to suit me.

    "2) Athens GA was a hotspot for bands that were precursors to this Alt. rock stuff back in the 80s. Radiohead is not unlike REMs Murmur album."

    I'll have to take your word on it. I really didn't like REM personally, though they were big. Always preferred the B-52's from that era and city (Athens). And that is another band that I'm drawing a blank on if you say they were influenced by British folk music.

    "3) I’d bet there are more southerners than you realize who enjoy British popular music like Radiohead."

    There might be. But this just isn't a big thing here. Patrice O'Neal would have drawn a blank if he did that routine on John Boy and Billy.

    Just wanted to add, I've always thought As Tears Go By from the Stones came out of British Music Halls. Maybe I am wrong though, but it sure doesn't seem bluesy or country.

  205. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Svigor
    I always liked Pearl Jam better than Nirvana, though it's not like it took much. I find it funny that Cobain attacked Vedder for being disingenuous or "selling out" or whatever. Cobain probably offed himself after a thorough personal inventory.

    I thought Cobain’s issue wasn’t with Vedder but critics who put Pearl Jam in the grunge category. I think he called them “the Buffalo Springfield of the ’90s”.

    Read More
  206. Sunbeam says:
    @Curle
    Re: the cultural roots of Radiohead popularity and your bifurcation debate with @Hipster from NYC.

    As a person with deep roots in the South, and a Radiohead fan, I can't help but note a couple of things:

    1) The South is the most traditionally British of all the regions of the US (at least genetically) and Radiohead is, for modern music terms, characteristically British. Their sound, and Coldplay's variant of it, has been wildly popular there for some time. If you are southern and of British descent, as I am, you should recognize this music as genetically familiar in the same way you should recognize British folk music as genetically familiar (assuming genetic familiarity extended to music is a real thing). I believe one can trace a line of influence between traditional British folk music, early 20th century British symphonic music (Holst) down to Fairport Convention, Pink Floyd, Radiohead and Coldplay. British folk music is virtually indistinguishable from traditional Appalachian music and much more like it than present day country and western music. In other words, your ancestors would listen to today's country and likely find it unfamiliar. Not so with British folk music.

    2) Athens GA was a hotspot for bands that were precursors to this Alt. rock stuff back in the 80s. Radiohead is not unlike REMs Murmur album.

    3) I'd bet there are more southerners than you realize who enjoy British popular music like Radiohead.

    “1) The South is the most traditionally British of all the regions of the US (at least genetically) and Radiohead is, for modern music terms, characteristically British. Their sound, and Coldplay’s variant of it, has been wildly popular there for some time. If you are southern and of British descent, as I am, you should recognize this music as genetically familiar in the same way you should recognize British folk music as genetically familiar (assuming genetic familiarity extended to music is a real thing). I believe one can trace a line of influence between traditional British folk music, early 20th century British symphonic music (Holst) down to Fairport Convention, Pink Floyd, Radiohead and Coldplay. British folk music is virtually indistinguishable from traditional Appalachian music and much more like it than present day country and western music. In other words, your ancestors would listen to today’s country and likely find it unfamiliar. Not so with British folk music.”

    You’ve got a reasonable premise (though I’d think New England culturally can claim to at least have as much “English” influence as the American south).

    But you lose me after that. Pink Floyd has roots in British Folk Music? I just don’t buy that one. I vaguely remember the first Pink Floyd album (the one with the pot plants or whatever on the cover). Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall are a lot more familiar to me.

    I’d actually think the Kinks fit your description more than Pink Floyd, as regards British Concert Hall music, if not British Symphonic music (they really stuck their thumbs in a lot of pies) . I really know nothing about Coldplay; I’ve heard a few songs, but I had the same enthusiasm for them I had for Britney Spears. Not really sure what Fairport Convention is or was.

    I’d agree with you about modern country music. That stuff died a long time ago. Basically now… let’s just not talk about it, ok? It is basically pop from 20 years ago, sung or narrated with an accent that people who actually worked in cotton fields never possessed, with a heaping helping of hip hop becoming more present every year.

    I think Garth Brooks was the Herald of Destruction as far as country goes.

    You really couldn’t insult this genre enough to suit me.

    “2) Athens GA was a hotspot for bands that were precursors to this Alt. rock stuff back in the 80s. Radiohead is not unlike REMs Murmur album.”

    I’ll have to take your word on it. I really didn’t like REM personally, though they were big. Always preferred the B-52′s from that era and city (Athens). And that is another band that I’m drawing a blank on if you say they were influenced by British folk music.

    “3) I’d bet there are more southerners than you realize who enjoy British popular music like Radiohead.”

    There might be. But this just isn’t a big thing here. Patrice O’Neal would have drawn a blank if he did that routine on John Boy and Billy.

    Just wanted to add, I’ve always thought As Tears Go By from the Stones came out of British Music Halls. Maybe I am wrong though, but it sure doesn’t seem bluesy or country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    There aren't any Pink Floyd albums that look like what you described.
  207. Patrice O’Neal could be funny, but he’s rated much higher in the ranks of comedians than he would be if he were white. He was also pretty filthy, and not just in his act. He regularly talked about how much he enjoyed pissing on his girlfriend. In fact, he said the reason he first went to the doctor and found out he had diabetes was because his girlfriend told him his urine tasted like birthday cake.

    Read More
  208. Curle says:
    @Paul
    Here's a pussy-whipped national anthem from back in the day, written by white folks, performed by a black dude. It's no accident it was featured in "something about mary," which was a comedy about a wee white jewish pussy-whip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwx8Voq373A

    I think, as a white dude, I like "creep," as well as these songs because it takes me back to my days of pining for the head cheerleader/homecoming queen at my high school. I was a sophomore, she was a senior. Blonde, 6'1", beautiful face, and perfect body. Believe me, she was astounding.

    I'd stare at her when she walked by, because I didn't care what she thought of me, since I was a lowly sophomore, I knew her boyfriend attended college, and she looked at me like I was a roach who needed to be stepped on.

    Amongst girls in my own age bracket, I think I did fine. I wasn't a creep, but I know the feeling from Aryan Blondie, two years older than me, giving me the stink-eye. I could easily see me walking home afterwards, singing "creep" to myself. When I aimed lower (girls my own age) life got way better.

    Also, to be fair, the sophomore girls who thought they might have a chance with me when I was a senior faired no better than I did. I thought they were kind of creepy myself.
    They weren't "alpha" girls, and, as opposed to young men's overriding tastes today, the idea of no pubic hair repulsed me.

    I think "creep" just brings to mind a faux dramatic phase in most white dudes lives.

    “Also, to be fair, the sophomore girls who thought they might have a chance with me when I was a senior faired no better than I did. I thought they were kind of creepy myself.
    They weren’t “alpha” girls, .” —————————————-

    I presume by ‘alpha girls’ you are referring to sexually aggressive women? Whether because of my generation, the way I was raised (which included a very sexually tame private school where many of the girls had older boyfriends), the way I was trained by my long time high school girlfriend (lots of pleading + lots of attention from me = only the slightest of concessions) kept me mostly unaware of the existence of sexually aggressive women. I had my eyes opened, a little, in college when, during a party, the top campus hottie dating the biggest man on campus (it was a small school) entered my room, shut the door and immediately started getting frisky. This was a woman I barely knew (though she was drunk). I was both dumbfounded and 100% certain that it was some kind of candid camera type practical joke. I was, even at that time generally, having my traditional experiences with women, dating, begging , being treated like a yo-yo and getting very little in exchange for a lot of effort.

    Lessons learned: 1) women are not subject to easy categorization; 2) you cannot infer the preferences or even the behavior of one from the behavior of others; 3) there’s no accounting for taste; and 4) women do the picking. This was all new information to me at the time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paul

    I presume by ‘alpha girls’ you are referring to sexually aggressive women? Whether because of my generation, the way I was raised (which included a very sexually tame private school where many of the girls had older boyfriends), the way I was trained by my long time high school girlfriend (lots of pleading + lots of attention from me = only the slightest of concessions) kept me mostly unaware of the existence of sexually aggressive women.
     
    I don't necessarily mean sexually aggressive women. I knew plenty I wouldn't call "alpha." I also usually turned them down. By "alpha" I guess I mean social winners. Those who do well in school, have friends, excel in their interests, aren't weird-and are sexually attractive.

    Non-alpha girls tend to pitch fits, play the victim, wait by the phone, stick notes in your locker, and that shit. I can think of 2 non-alpha girls I wouldn't date in high school, and one of them coerced one of her friends to confront me, indicating she would hit me if I didn't answer her questions correctly. Another one, an athletic gal, confronted me herself with the threat of punching me in the face. As if she could punch me into fucking her, I guess. This came to a head after she hassled me for months. Neither of them hit me, btw. They were aggressive, they wanted me as their boyfriend, they wanted sex, but they were female versions of pussies. Not "alpha." They were fuckable, but not worth the time.

    The epitome of an alpha girl would be the one I described. A 6'1" blonde bombshell who was the homecoming queen and head cheerleader.

    Through all of my dating career, I guess I've been very lucky. Never had to deal with any weirdness with women sexually. Not much game playing. All pretty straightforward.

    Lessons learned: 1) women are not subject to easy categorization; 2) you cannot infer the preferences or even the behavior of one from the behavior of others; 3) there’s no accounting for taste; and 4) women do the picking. This was all new information to me at the time.
     
    I disagree with one and two. Women are pretty easy to categorize, if you're not willing to play their games. Number three is right. Number four, "women do the picking" is what you WANT them to think! Dealing with women is kind of like doing sales. Sometimes you have to nudge them the way you want them to go, other times you have to tell them what to do. Cats can be herded. It's not pretty, but it can be done.

    One thing I did learn about dating women who knew they were very attractive, you don't have to put up with their shit. You can walk away. More often than not, they'll get in touch at a later date, and things can work well from there.
    Sometimes they're acting shitty just because the timing was all wrong for them for whatever reason, which is understandable. Not all great looking women are shitheads. They're just trying to navigate life as well as they can, just like you and me. Always be nice, and give 'em a "time out" for some months. I had one girl call me two years after I walked. Her behavior cleaned up nicely.
  209. Sunbeam says:

    Geez just got through listening to some Coldplay. All I can think of, is that it is Journey with a piano and a guy that can’t sing as well.

    Seriously the English produced Richard Burton (not the Welsh actor one), Jack Churchill, Isaac Newton…

    Then Coldplay? These guys are like diet coke. Or Zima.

    Literally whether it is the snowcovered north, or the deepest jungle, I just cannot imagine listening to a Coldplay song sitting around the fire with the drums going. Let alone drinking beer or smoking pot. They would harsh my mellow something fierce.

    About as non-primal as you can get, yet it is somehow… not cerebral.

    A conundrum. Heck Boy George had more stones than these guys. Or David Bowie when he was in full Ziggy Stardust mode.

    Geez I am going to play Janis Joplin’s Ball and Chain performance from Monterrey. It’s almost like … well I don’t know. There is just nothing there, like one of these interchangeable barbie dolls they put out a new model every few years for to market music to teen age girls.

    It’s like they are a bridge in song, but the bridge never ends or goes anywhere. And it isn’t in a jazzy kind of way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Curle
    Sunbeam,

    I should have cited my sources. Here's an amazon background on the book "Electric Eden."

    Note, this book does cover Marxists successfully hijacking British folk music (as they did in this country) for a time and also credits British paganism with some degree of influence in perpetuating the style.

    If you've never heard Fairport Convention you should. Sandy Denny is my favorite female vocalist (she's dead). She sang the female part on the Battle of Evermore (Led Zeppelin). Below is a song, the theme of which is Mary Queen of Scots last night before her beheading.

    Electric Eden: Unearthing Britain's Visionary Music

    Rob Young investigates how the idea of folk has been handed down and transformed by successive generations - song collectors, composers, Marxist revivalists, folk-rockers, psychedelic voyagers, free festival-goers, experimental pop stars and electronic innovators.

    In a sweeping panorama of Albion's soundscape that takes in the pioneer spirit of Cecil Sharp; the pastoral classicism of Ralph Vaughan Williams and Peter Warlock; the industrial folk revival of Ewan MacColl and A. L. Lloyd; the folk-rock of Fairport Convention, Sandy Denny, Nick Drake, Shirley Collins, John Martyn and Pentangle; the bucolic psychedelia of The Incredible String Band, The Beatles and Pink Floyd; the acid folk of Comus, Forest, Mr Fox and Trees; The Wicker Man and occult folklore; the early Glastonbury and Stonehenge festivals; and the visionary pop of Kate Bush, Julian Cope and Talk Talk, Electric Eden maps out a native British musical voice that reflects the complex relationships between town and country, progress and nostalgia, radicalism and conservatism.

    An attempt to isolate the 'Britishness' of British music - a wild combination of pagan echoes, spiritual quest, imaginative time-travel, pastoral innocence and electrified creativity - Electric Eden will be treasured by anyone interested in the tangled story of Britain's folk music and Arcadian dreams.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbnLVvAJrec
  210. @Space Ghost
    Sorry man but you sound like a huge tool. The kids who listened to that music in *my* high school were the prototypes of the fedora-tipping neckbeard meme that is all over the internet - mimicking the surface style but none of the actual cool of the 1940s swing era. Which isn't that surprising - it's very difficult to be cool as an 18 year old. But to still talk about it 15 years later, and put yourself above people who listened to other music...rough.

    Grow up and get over the fact not everybody liked the same kind of music or liked the same groups of people in high school–and they can maintain those prejudices as they move through life.
    Incidentally, what kind of person uses childish insults like “huge tool”? I guess somebody like you who claims to know a Navy SEAL, as if that were a big deal. I know quite a few SEALs; I ran XTERRA Guam competing against NSWU-1 members a few years ago and often hung out with them at the Horse and Cow in Tamuning. (I ran into some of the same guys in AFG.) Nobody but nobody plays something like Radiohead at a Navy bar. But Royal Crown Review? Sure.
    One of the guys who danced to neo-swing in high school was on the development team for MCSOCOM Det 1. Two others serve with FORECON. Another is a pilot with 3rd MAW. And another is an aviator with CVW-8 and not long ago got off a nine-month deployment that included striking ISIS targets. I doubt any of them have ever worn neck beards and fedoras (I had to look up what those were).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Space Ghost
    Wow. The fact that you

    1) felt the need to read through my entire post history
    2) interpreted a one-line, thread-relevant, throwaway comment about someone I know as "bragging" or a "big deal"
    3) responded with your own Navy creds and those of all your high school buddies

    because of my comment confirms that my initial analysis was correct. You should do something about your anger issues, it's not healthy.

    BTW I made no claim about Radiohead whatsoever, which you would have noticed if you weren't so angry. I was simply commenting on your poor taste in music, and the hilarity that a grown man would carry petty high school judgements into adulthood.
  211. Curle says:
    @Sunbeam
    Geez just got through listening to some Coldplay. All I can think of, is that it is Journey with a piano and a guy that can't sing as well.

    Seriously the English produced Richard Burton (not the Welsh actor one), Jack Churchill, Isaac Newton...

    Then Coldplay? These guys are like diet coke. Or Zima.

    Literally whether it is the snowcovered north, or the deepest jungle, I just cannot imagine listening to a Coldplay song sitting around the fire with the drums going. Let alone drinking beer or smoking pot. They would harsh my mellow something fierce.

    About as non-primal as you can get, yet it is somehow... not cerebral.

    A conundrum. Heck Boy George had more stones than these guys. Or David Bowie when he was in full Ziggy Stardust mode.

    Geez I am going to play Janis Joplin's Ball and Chain performance from Monterrey. It's almost like ... well I don't know. There is just nothing there, like one of these interchangeable barbie dolls they put out a new model every few years for to market music to teen age girls.

    It's like they are a bridge in song, but the bridge never ends or goes anywhere. And it isn't in a jazzy kind of way.

    Sunbeam,

    I should have cited my sources. Here’s an amazon background on the book “Electric Eden.”

    Note, this book does cover Marxists successfully hijacking British folk music (as they did in this country) for a time and also credits British paganism with some degree of influence in perpetuating the style.

    If you’ve never heard Fairport Convention you should. Sandy Denny is my favorite female vocalist (she’s dead). She sang the female part on the Battle of Evermore (Led Zeppelin). Below is a song, the theme of which is Mary Queen of Scots last night before her beheading.

    Electric Eden: Unearthing Britain’s Visionary Music

    Rob Young investigates how the idea of folk has been handed down and transformed by successive generations – song collectors, composers, Marxist revivalists, folk-rockers, psychedelic voyagers, free festival-goers, experimental pop stars and electronic innovators.

    In a sweeping panorama of Albion’s soundscape that takes in the pioneer spirit of Cecil Sharp; the pastoral classicism of Ralph Vaughan Williams and Peter Warlock; the industrial folk revival of Ewan MacColl and A. L. Lloyd; the folk-rock of Fairport Convention, Sandy Denny, Nick Drake, Shirley Collins, John Martyn and Pentangle; the bucolic psychedelia of The Incredible String Band, The Beatles and Pink Floyd; the acid folk of Comus, Forest, Mr Fox and Trees; The Wicker Man and occult folklore; the early Glastonbury and Stonehenge festivals; and the visionary pop of Kate Bush, Julian Cope and Talk Talk, Electric Eden maps out a native British musical voice that reflects the complex relationships between town and country, progress and nostalgia, radicalism and conservatism.

    An attempt to isolate the ‘Britishness’ of British music – a wild combination of pagan echoes, spiritual quest, imaginative time-travel, pastoral innocence and electrified creativity – Electric Eden will be treasured by anyone interested in the tangled story of Britain’s folk music and Arcadian dreams.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbnLVvAJrec

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    Thanks, I missed that act (Fairport Convention) and I like this period of time.

    I might add I am listening to one of their songs, "Tam Lin," now. I picked it because, well it sounds like a folk song. This isn't a dig on them, but it apparently dates from 1969 and has a serious Jefferson Airplane thing going on with it.

    Also listened to one called "Who knows where the time goes." I like it, but I'm not sure how well. I think that is a good sign.

    Don't feel the need to reply, this thread is as grizzled as a 15 year old dog now. Still, I have trouble seeing any kind of descent from folk to some of the material you listed.

    Still I haven't read the book. But Scarborough Fair to "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" is a big leap. Comfortably Numb maybe, hmmmm

    I also have to say upon reflection that there were some things the Beatles did that didn't come from the Mississippi Delta or even the Ganges. I'm pretty sure that what I am talking about isn't totally original, it was too well formed to just be an experiment.

    Have to think about this some more. But all I've ever really heard is folk music (the version of it we have here), so I don't know I can form an opinion.
  212. @Hipster
    Radihead has sold 30 million albums worldwide. Creep, a song released in the mid 90s, has 78 million youtube views. I have no idea about any country artists. Where I come from, NY, people often say "I like any kind if kusic, except country." Its so common it is a cliche on dating sites etc.

    No one likes metal either. Where do you live, pray? Have you had significant contact with Blue State Whites? We clearly are a separate group man.

    Radihead has sold 30 million albums worldwide. Creep, a song released in the mid 90s, has 78 million youtube views.

    No one likes metal either

    Linkin Park has sold 60 million albums and their song ‘Numb” has 220 million youtube views. So SOMEBODY likes metal. Or nu-metal at any rate.

    On the subject of rap, gangsta rap is deeply crappy. But rap can be effective when done right, as a white guy and Japanese-America guy demonstrate here. Click ‘show more” and find the song “In The End”.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQLYacC3Wag

    Read More
  213. HA says:
    @Auntie Analogue
    Louis CK makes my skin crawl.

    “Louis CK makes my skin crawl.”

    I get a lot of email from people saying, ‘I saw something you did on TV that was clean.’ Like I did this clip on Conan that went viral… So a lot of people that saw it would go to my website and be horrified by everything else that I say.

    So I got a lot of emails from people saying, ‘Why can’t you just keep it clean?…’ And I would not usually respond to them because I don’t return emails, but in my head and to a few of them I said, ‘Well, you’re the one putting the limit. Not me. I’m saying a bunch of stuff, and you’re the one saying I should only say one facet of it.’ That’s a limit. But at the same time, when these people would write to me I’d kind of like them. Whenever I’ve encountered a Christian saying, ‘Why don’t you stop talking like that so I can hear you?’ I think, ‘Well you’re the one putting the earmuffs on, but I wish you could hear me because I like you.’

    On people who identify as ‘right-wing’

    “There’s been a lot of simple vilification of right-wing people. It’s really easy to say, ‘Well, you’re Christian, you’re anti-this and that, and I hate you.’ But to me, it’s more interesting to say, ‘What is this person like and how do they really think?’ Do I have any common ground with people like that who find me really, really offensive?….”

    On the recent death of comedian Patrice O’Neal

    “I lost my friend Patrice. I’m sorry. [pauses] Patrice died of a diabetic coma. He didn’t take good care of himself. And there’s part of me that’s upset with him for not taking good care of himself, because he took himself away from us.”

    http://www.npr.org/2011/12/13/143581710/louis-c-k-reflects-on-louie-loss-love-and-life

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  214. Sunbeam says:
    @Curle
    Sunbeam,

    I should have cited my sources. Here's an amazon background on the book "Electric Eden."

    Note, this book does cover Marxists successfully hijacking British folk music (as they did in this country) for a time and also credits British paganism with some degree of influence in perpetuating the style.

    If you've never heard Fairport Convention you should. Sandy Denny is my favorite female vocalist (she's dead). She sang the female part on the Battle of Evermore (Led Zeppelin). Below is a song, the theme of which is Mary Queen of Scots last night before her beheading.

    Electric Eden: Unearthing Britain's Visionary Music

    Rob Young investigates how the idea of folk has been handed down and transformed by successive generations - song collectors, composers, Marxist revivalists, folk-rockers, psychedelic voyagers, free festival-goers, experimental pop stars and electronic innovators.

    In a sweeping panorama of Albion's soundscape that takes in the pioneer spirit of Cecil Sharp; the pastoral classicism of Ralph Vaughan Williams and Peter Warlock; the industrial folk revival of Ewan MacColl and A. L. Lloyd; the folk-rock of Fairport Convention, Sandy Denny, Nick Drake, Shirley Collins, John Martyn and Pentangle; the bucolic psychedelia of The Incredible String Band, The Beatles and Pink Floyd; the acid folk of Comus, Forest, Mr Fox and Trees; The Wicker Man and occult folklore; the early Glastonbury and Stonehenge festivals; and the visionary pop of Kate Bush, Julian Cope and Talk Talk, Electric Eden maps out a native British musical voice that reflects the complex relationships between town and country, progress and nostalgia, radicalism and conservatism.

    An attempt to isolate the 'Britishness' of British music - a wild combination of pagan echoes, spiritual quest, imaginative time-travel, pastoral innocence and electrified creativity - Electric Eden will be treasured by anyone interested in the tangled story of Britain's folk music and Arcadian dreams.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbnLVvAJrec

    Thanks, I missed that act (Fairport Convention) and I like this period of time.

    I might add I am listening to one of their songs, “Tam Lin,” now. I picked it because, well it sounds like a folk song. This isn’t a dig on them, but it apparently dates from 1969 and has a serious Jefferson Airplane thing going on with it.

    Also listened to one called “Who knows where the time goes.” I like it, but I’m not sure how well. I think that is a good sign.

    Don’t feel the need to reply, this thread is as grizzled as a 15 year old dog now. Still, I have trouble seeing any kind of descent from folk to some of the material you listed.

    Still I haven’t read the book. But Scarborough Fair to “Shine On You Crazy Diamond” is a big leap. Comfortably Numb maybe, hmmmm

    I also have to say upon reflection that there were some things the Beatles did that didn’t come from the Mississippi Delta or even the Ganges. I’m pretty sure that what I am talking about isn’t totally original, it was too well formed to just be an experiment.

    Have to think about this some more. But all I’ve ever really heard is folk music (the version of it we have here), so I don’t know I can form an opinion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Thanks, I missed that act (Fairport Convention) and I like this period of time.
     
    It only took me 25 or 30 years, but I finally found some Fairport Convention that lived up to the hype. Liege & Lief has at least 3 excellent songs: Tam Lin, Come All Ye, and Sir Patrick Spens. Liege & Lief also includes a version of Reynardine, but Pentangle's version is much better.
  215. @Major Problem
    Grow up and get over the fact not everybody liked the same kind of music or liked the same groups of people in high school--and they can maintain those prejudices as they move through life.
    Incidentally, what kind of person uses childish insults like "huge tool"? I guess somebody like you who claims to know a Navy SEAL, as if that were a big deal. I know quite a few SEALs; I ran XTERRA Guam competing against NSWU-1 members a few years ago and often hung out with them at the Horse and Cow in Tamuning. (I ran into some of the same guys in AFG.) Nobody but nobody plays something like Radiohead at a Navy bar. But Royal Crown Review? Sure.
    One of the guys who danced to neo-swing in high school was on the development team for MCSOCOM Det 1. Two others serve with FORECON. Another is a pilot with 3rd MAW. And another is an aviator with CVW-8 and not long ago got off a nine-month deployment that included striking ISIS targets. I doubt any of them have ever worn neck beards and fedoras (I had to look up what those were).

    Wow. The fact that you

    1) felt the need to read through my entire post history
    2) interpreted a one-line, thread-relevant, throwaway comment about someone I know as “bragging” or a “big deal”
    3) responded with your own Navy creds and those of all your high school buddies

    because of my comment confirms that my initial analysis was correct. You should do something about your anger issues, it’s not healthy.

    BTW I made no claim about Radiohead whatsoever, which you would have noticed if you weren’t so angry. I was simply commenting on your poor taste in music, and the hilarity that a grown man would carry petty high school judgements into adulthood.

    Read More
  216. Vendetta says:
    @Uptown Resident
    Actually (pace Roissy), "beta" behavior--when it goes with real world success--has been working for men for a really long time. I'm thinking of the Western love lyric tradition where the male speaker exalts the female beloved while wallowing in his own inadequacy. Dante and Petrarch pioneered this style for the modern West in the late middle ages.

    Quality guys are ones who have alpha standing (financial/professional accomplishment), but have personal behaviors that some call beta (kind, loyal, bookish, alternative, capable of self-scrutiny). By this standard, Thom Yorke is undeniably a catch.

    This is the main reason I think the alpha/beta distinction, as it's currently used, is completely off target. Successful men will attract women. Nice guys will usually be capable of a relationship. Successful, nice guys are the ideal.

    Occasionally I'll hear Gotye's "Somebody that I used to know" and laugh thinking about Lawrence Auster's "the video is distasteful" warning when linking to the music video in a post, "A music video about beta males." http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021796.html

    Spot on.

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  217. Jay Fink says:

    The only thing I didn’t like in “Creep” was the lyrics “I want a perfect body, I want a perfect soul”. These lyrics made me, a Gen Xer, start to worship baby boomers. Boomer men didn’t even think about their bodies and were sexually invisible. I love them for this. My rotten generation were the ones that started caring what men’s bodies looked like and I can’t despise and resent them enough for it….although gen y took it to the next level.

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  218. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    In the early 90′s I noticed some blacks visceral negative reaction when Nirvana’s Smells Like Teen Spirit came on the radio.

    “It’s musical nihilism” said I. “Yes, but that is not why they don’t like it” a friend told me. “It’s our nihilism, not their’s” he explained.

    White guys can’t help being white, even when they do rap. Case in point:

    MC 900 Ft Jesus – The City Sleeps

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KB54p8_wh8

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    MC 900 Ft Jesus was pretty cool. And funny:

    The Beastie Boys and Eminem had the right idea: they weren't going to pretend to be gangstas or street prophets (it's embarrassing enough when the brothers do it), and rap, such as it is, was enriched for it. Someone's got to bring some real wit.

    Looks like that embed didn't work:

    http://youtu.be/AWwQsdHMT7Y

  219. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sunbeam
    "1) The South is the most traditionally British of all the regions of the US (at least genetically) and Radiohead is, for modern music terms, characteristically British. Their sound, and Coldplay’s variant of it, has been wildly popular there for some time. If you are southern and of British descent, as I am, you should recognize this music as genetically familiar in the same way you should recognize British folk music as genetically familiar (assuming genetic familiarity extended to music is a real thing). I believe one can trace a line of influence between traditional British folk music, early 20th century British symphonic music (Holst) down to Fairport Convention, Pink Floyd, Radiohead and Coldplay. British folk music is virtually indistinguishable from traditional Appalachian music and much more like it than present day country and western music. In other words, your ancestors would listen to today’s country and likely find it unfamiliar. Not so with British folk music."

    You've got a reasonable premise (though I'd think New England culturally can claim to at least have as much "English" influence as the American south).

    But you lose me after that. Pink Floyd has roots in British Folk Music? I just don't buy that one. I vaguely remember the first Pink Floyd album (the one with the pot plants or whatever on the cover). Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall are a lot more familiar to me.

    I'd actually think the Kinks fit your description more than Pink Floyd, as regards British Concert Hall music, if not British Symphonic music (they really stuck their thumbs in a lot of pies) . I really know nothing about Coldplay; I've heard a few songs, but I had the same enthusiasm for them I had for Britney Spears. Not really sure what Fairport Convention is or was.

    I'd agree with you about modern country music. That stuff died a long time ago. Basically now... let's just not talk about it, ok? It is basically pop from 20 years ago, sung or narrated with an accent that people who actually worked in cotton fields never possessed, with a heaping helping of hip hop becoming more present every year.

    I think Garth Brooks was the Herald of Destruction as far as country goes.

    You really couldn't insult this genre enough to suit me.

    "2) Athens GA was a hotspot for bands that were precursors to this Alt. rock stuff back in the 80s. Radiohead is not unlike REMs Murmur album."

    I'll have to take your word on it. I really didn't like REM personally, though they were big. Always preferred the B-52's from that era and city (Athens). And that is another band that I'm drawing a blank on if you say they were influenced by British folk music.

    "3) I’d bet there are more southerners than you realize who enjoy British popular music like Radiohead."

    There might be. But this just isn't a big thing here. Patrice O'Neal would have drawn a blank if he did that routine on John Boy and Billy.

    Just wanted to add, I've always thought As Tears Go By from the Stones came out of British Music Halls. Maybe I am wrong though, but it sure doesn't seem bluesy or country.

    There aren’t any Pink Floyd albums that look like what you described.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    "There aren’t any Pink Floyd albums that look like what you described."

    I think you are right. I could have sworn there was a pot plants on the cover, or back side of the cover on the first Pink Floyd album.

    Did a google and didn't find anything that looked like that though. Still I could swear I've seen this image before. Maybe on the sleeve of the vinyl record itself?

    Dunno, but I will cheerfully admit I'm wrong. Not sure I have looked at an actual Pink Floyd vinyl album since the mid 80's, so it's not surprising.
    , @Curle
    There is a large clear class jug on the cover of Ummagumma with a plant inside that could be easily mistaken for marijuana unless, of course, it is marijuana.
  220. Paul says:
    @Curle
    "Also, to be fair, the sophomore girls who thought they might have a chance with me when I was a senior faired no better than I did. I thought they were kind of creepy myself.
    They weren’t “alpha” girls, ." ----------------------------------------

    I presume by 'alpha girls' you are referring to sexually aggressive women? Whether because of my generation, the way I was raised (which included a very sexually tame private school where many of the girls had older boyfriends), the way I was trained by my long time high school girlfriend (lots of pleading + lots of attention from me = only the slightest of concessions) kept me mostly unaware of the existence of sexually aggressive women. I had my eyes opened, a little, in college when, during a party, the top campus hottie dating the biggest man on campus (it was a small school) entered my room, shut the door and immediately started getting frisky. This was a woman I barely knew (though she was drunk). I was both dumbfounded and 100% certain that it was some kind of candid camera type practical joke. I was, even at that time generally, having my traditional experiences with women, dating, begging , being treated like a yo-yo and getting very little in exchange for a lot of effort.

    Lessons learned: 1) women are not subject to easy categorization; 2) you cannot infer the preferences or even the behavior of one from the behavior of others; 3) there's no accounting for taste; and 4) women do the picking. This was all new information to me at the time.

    I presume by ‘alpha girls’ you are referring to sexually aggressive women? Whether because of my generation, the way I was raised (which included a very sexually tame private school where many of the girls had older boyfriends), the way I was trained by my long time high school girlfriend (lots of pleading + lots of attention from me = only the slightest of concessions) kept me mostly unaware of the existence of sexually aggressive women.

    I don’t necessarily mean sexually aggressive women. I knew plenty I wouldn’t call “alpha.” I also usually turned them down. By “alpha” I guess I mean social winners. Those who do well in school, have friends, excel in their interests, aren’t weird-and are sexually attractive.

    Non-alpha girls tend to pitch fits, play the victim, wait by the phone, stick notes in your locker, and that shit. I can think of 2 non-alpha girls I wouldn’t date in high school, and one of them coerced one of her friends to confront me, indicating she would hit me if I didn’t answer her questions correctly. Another one, an athletic gal, confronted me herself with the threat of punching me in the face. As if she could punch me into fucking her, I guess. This came to a head after she hassled me for months. Neither of them hit me, btw. They were aggressive, they wanted me as their boyfriend, they wanted sex, but they were female versions of pussies. Not “alpha.” They were fuckable, but not worth the time.

    The epitome of an alpha girl would be the one I described. A 6’1″ blonde bombshell who was the homecoming queen and head cheerleader.

    Through all of my dating career, I guess I’ve been very lucky. Never had to deal with any weirdness with women sexually. Not much game playing. All pretty straightforward.

    Lessons learned: 1) women are not subject to easy categorization; 2) you cannot infer the preferences or even the behavior of one from the behavior of others; 3) there’s no accounting for taste; and 4) women do the picking. This was all new information to me at the time.

    I disagree with one and two. Women are pretty easy to categorize, if you’re not willing to play their games. Number three is right. Number four, “women do the picking” is what you WANT them to think! Dealing with women is kind of like doing sales. Sometimes you have to nudge them the way you want them to go, other times you have to tell them what to do. Cats can be herded. It’s not pretty, but it can be done.

    One thing I did learn about dating women who knew they were very attractive, you don’t have to put up with their shit. You can walk away. More often than not, they’ll get in touch at a later date, and things can work well from there.
    Sometimes they’re acting shitty just because the timing was all wrong for them for whatever reason, which is understandable. Not all great looking women are shitheads. They’re just trying to navigate life as well as they can, just like you and me. Always be nice, and give ‘em a “time out” for some months. I had one girl call me two years after I walked. Her behavior cleaned up nicely.

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  221. Sunbeam says:
    @Anonymous
    There aren't any Pink Floyd albums that look like what you described.

    “There aren’t any Pink Floyd albums that look like what you described.”

    I think you are right. I could have sworn there was a pot plants on the cover, or back side of the cover on the first Pink Floyd album.

    Did a google and didn’t find anything that looked like that though. Still I could swear I’ve seen this image before. Maybe on the sleeve of the vinyl record itself?

    Dunno, but I will cheerfully admit I’m wrong. Not sure I have looked at an actual Pink Floyd vinyl album since the mid 80′s, so it’s not surprising.

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  222. Curle says:
    @Anonymous
    There aren't any Pink Floyd albums that look like what you described.

    There is a large clear class jug on the cover of Ummagumma with a plant inside that could be easily mistaken for marijuana unless, of course, it is marijuana.

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  223. Marty says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The great seventh at the San Francisco Golf Club is called the Duel Hole because a former chief justice of the California Supreme Court legally killed a U.S. Senator on the spot in 1859.

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2841218953_ec16824d6a_b.jpg

    Steve, do you know what the greatest aspect of The Duel Hole is?

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  224. Chris says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    Pretty awful vocal from a guy who can sing fine when he wants to ...

    It's interesting how straight male rock fans seldom care about good singing, while women idolize vocal athletes like Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey. If you made up a list of singers whose fan bases had the highest male to female ratios, they'd be guys like Lou Reed and Joe Strummer.

    It's a weird thing because the dominant male vocalists of the distant past (e.g., Crosby, Sinatra, Presley) were terrific singers. Guy country singers can generally sing just fine. But in the post-Dylan rock tradition, a good voice seems a little gay (e.g., Freddie).

    This is an interesting comment. I’m a big fan of Mark Kozelek (Red House Painters, Sun Kil Moon) and there is no question that he has a high male to female ratio. He even had some lyrics recently about it:

    ——
    My band played here a lot in the nineties when we had
    A lot of female fans and fuck they all were cute
    Now I just sign posters for guys in tennis shoes
    ——

    His vocal style has become more and more monotone over time.

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  225. Chris says: • Website
    @Uptown Resident
    Actually (pace Roissy), "beta" behavior--when it goes with real world success--has been working for men for a really long time. I'm thinking of the Western love lyric tradition where the male speaker exalts the female beloved while wallowing in his own inadequacy. Dante and Petrarch pioneered this style for the modern West in the late middle ages.

    Quality guys are ones who have alpha standing (financial/professional accomplishment), but have personal behaviors that some call beta (kind, loyal, bookish, alternative, capable of self-scrutiny). By this standard, Thom Yorke is undeniably a catch.

    This is the main reason I think the alpha/beta distinction, as it's currently used, is completely off target. Successful men will attract women. Nice guys will usually be capable of a relationship. Successful, nice guys are the ideal.

    Occasionally I'll hear Gotye's "Somebody that I used to know" and laugh thinking about Lawrence Auster's "the video is distasteful" warning when linking to the music video in a post, "A music video about beta males." http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021796.html

    You are completely correct about the silly alpha/beta distinction as often presented. Trying to relentlessly shoehorn complex behavior into two buckets makes no sense.

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  226. manton says:
    @Uptown Resident
    Actually (pace Roissy), "beta" behavior--when it goes with real world success--has been working for men for a really long time. I'm thinking of the Western love lyric tradition where the male speaker exalts the female beloved while wallowing in his own inadequacy. Dante and Petrarch pioneered this style for the modern West in the late middle ages.

    Quality guys are ones who have alpha standing (financial/professional accomplishment), but have personal behaviors that some call beta (kind, loyal, bookish, alternative, capable of self-scrutiny). By this standard, Thom Yorke is undeniably a catch.

    This is the main reason I think the alpha/beta distinction, as it's currently used, is completely off target. Successful men will attract women. Nice guys will usually be capable of a relationship. Successful, nice guys are the ideal.

    Occasionally I'll hear Gotye's "Somebody that I used to know" and laugh thinking about Lawrence Auster's "the video is distasteful" warning when linking to the music video in a post, "A music video about beta males." http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021796.html

    Yeah, well, Petrach pined after a married woman (“Laura”) his entire life and never even spoke to her, much less anything else.

    So, alpha/beta may be a bit binary and limiting, but the example of Petrach is woefully inapt to illustrate the point.

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  227. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    In the early 90's I noticed some blacks visceral negative reaction when Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit came on the radio.

    "It's musical nihilism" said I. "Yes, but that is not why they don't like it" a friend told me. "It's our nihilism, not their's" he explained.

    White guys can't help being white, even when they do rap. Case in point:

    MC 900 Ft Jesus - The City Sleeps

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KB54p8_wh8

    MC 900 Ft Jesus was pretty cool. And funny:

    The Beastie Boys and Eminem had the right idea: they weren’t going to pretend to be gangstas or street prophets (it’s embarrassing enough when the brothers do it), and rap, such as it is, was enriched for it. Someone’s got to bring some real wit.

    Looks like that embed didn’t work:

    http://youtu.be/AWwQsdHMT7Y

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  228. conatus says:

    How about Beck’s lyrics from 1993

    “Soy un perdedor
    I’m a loser baby, so why don’t you kill me?”

    You can’t get any more direct than that for YT’s anthem

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  229. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Apart from the repressed violence the other aspect of “Creep” (and the billion other songs on a similar theme) is how being genetically programmed for pair bonding totally sucks when it’s unrequited.

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  230. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Dave Pinsen
    The odd thing is that Radiohead ran away from that song, and from the whole genre, and started making weird, experimental music. All down hill after The Bends.

    A negative emotion evaporates when expressed.

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  231. @Sunbeam
    Thanks, I missed that act (Fairport Convention) and I like this period of time.

    I might add I am listening to one of their songs, "Tam Lin," now. I picked it because, well it sounds like a folk song. This isn't a dig on them, but it apparently dates from 1969 and has a serious Jefferson Airplane thing going on with it.

    Also listened to one called "Who knows where the time goes." I like it, but I'm not sure how well. I think that is a good sign.

    Don't feel the need to reply, this thread is as grizzled as a 15 year old dog now. Still, I have trouble seeing any kind of descent from folk to some of the material you listed.

    Still I haven't read the book. But Scarborough Fair to "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" is a big leap. Comfortably Numb maybe, hmmmm

    I also have to say upon reflection that there were some things the Beatles did that didn't come from the Mississippi Delta or even the Ganges. I'm pretty sure that what I am talking about isn't totally original, it was too well formed to just be an experiment.

    Have to think about this some more. But all I've ever really heard is folk music (the version of it we have here), so I don't know I can form an opinion.

    Thanks, I missed that act (Fairport Convention) and I like this period of time.

    It only took me 25 or 30 years, but I finally found some Fairport Convention that lived up to the hype. Liege & Lief has at least 3 excellent songs: Tam Lin, Come All Ye, and Sir Patrick Spens. Liege & Lief also includes a version of Reynardine, but Pentangle’s version is much better.

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  232. Damn it, Steve! I have work to do today.

    Anonymous says: Isn’t “Feels like Teen Spirit” just about normal adolescent angst and awkwardness?

    Yeah, pretty much. It’s focused through Cobain’s “guy in a band who goes to a lot of shows” filter. Throw in some existential confusion and there ya go. I always thought “Creep” was normal adolescent angst and awkwardness, too.

    BB753 says: I’ve always hated this song, but the real point of “Creep” is that it’s a beta’s lament, pining for a pedestalized girl…. It’s painful to hear a man being such a pussy, even in a song lyric.

    True, and I feel pretty much the same way about the song now (maybe the band does, too). However, if you were an awkward teenager/blue pill/hadn’t perfected your game when the song came out, it really spoke to you. Most of us outgrew it and learned a lesson. Chalk it up to youthful indiscretion. FWIW, this is the same reason I can’t listen to Nine Inch Nails, Smashing Pumpkins, or any of Henry Rollins solo efforts today.

    Sunbeam says They were big really? I’ve heard he name but just assumed they were something like a hair band from the 80′s with a different schtick. But in the end utterly disposable and forgettable.
    This song and this band really?

    Yeah, really.

    majneb says: I think its more accurate to say that “Creep” appeals to Generation X whites, rather than white people in general.

    Now, we’re getting somewhere.

    Sunbeam says: I think there are some regional and class things going on here that haven’t been mentioned at all here yet.

    But I am struck by something. It’s like there was some kind of big divergence after 1980 or so, and not just between white and black music, but among the white audience as well.

    Here we go! Yes, there was a huge divergence in white music toward the end of 1991. Nirvana blew up and opened the door for a lot of other bands. This set the tone for the rest of the decade, until the rise of boy bands and Brittney Aguilaras.

    It’s interesting that you mentioned the regional and class aspects. In hindsight, I have a lot of cousins all right around my age. By 1992, the ones who lived in cities all loved alternative rock and punk rock. The ones who lived in rural areas all held on to hair metal for about another five years. Not a large sample size, but an interesting anecdotal data point.

    Flash forward twenty years, and I still go deer hunting with my rural cousins. Last December at the end of the last day, we were all are armed with 12-guages, driving around in Cousin Doug’s giant pickup tuck filled with freshly tagged bucks and does. He had his Sirius radio locked in to some 90s alt rock channel, and the Butthole Surfers’ “Pepper” comes on. Surreal doesn’t even begin to describe it.

    Steve Sailer says: Are blacks as bad at music these days as they sound on their favorite rap songs’ instrumental tracks? Did they just stop learning how to play instruments?

    I thought you answered this years ago with your observation about the lack of new Tiger Woodses, Arthur Ashes, and Venus Sisterses? Same principle.

    Anonymous says: The passive-aggressive snark that now saturates our culture is only around because we got rid of dueling. It was obviously a mistake and should be revived.

    I believe it was Hegel who speculated that the first time two men fought to the death over honor was the first time the human spirit separated itself from the animal world. Passive-aggressive snark is the polar opposite of honor. You’re on to something.

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