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From the New York Times:

Medieval Scholars Joust With White Nationalists. And One Another.

By Jennifer Schuessler
May 5, 2019

… [Medievalism] has also been slow to take up the subject of race.

While archaeological evidence shows that Africans and other nonwhite people were present in medieval Europe, some scholars argue that race is a modern construct, with limited relevance in a period when differences in religion mattered more than skin color.

The link claiming “Africans and other nonwhite people were present in medieval Europe” leads to an endless series of posts at a website called The Public Medievalist on “Race, Racism and the Middle Ages.”

For over two centuries, American slaveholders, the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Nazi Germany, and today’s white supremacist self-styled “alt-right” have all promoted a twisted idea of the Middle Ages that props up their white-supremacist fantasies. And unfortunately, their view of the Middle Ages has trickled into the groundwater of the broader popular historical consciousness. Depictions of people of color in films, TV series, and video games about the Middle Ages are practically nonexistent. Those that do show people of color in the Middle Ages typically only reinforce this paradigm. For instance, the 2001 film Black Knight makes comedic hay out of the idea being black is at odds with being a knight.

But scholars know that the medieval world was not limited only to England or Western Europe. And even if it were limited to only Western Europe, it would still feature the stories of a number of people of color.

So, there are two arguments here:

One is that the academic field of “medievalism” should extend to parts of the world that didn’t exactly have a Middle Ages because they didn’t have a Renaissance. Naturally, Medievalists are prejudiced in favor of expansion of Medievalism. But why shouldn’t those places be studied instead by other academic domains, such as the various Area Studies?

The conceit behind Medievalism is that Europe, especially Western Europe, was relatively culturally unified enough during the Middle Ages, and different enough from both the Ancient World (the domain of Classics) and from the Europe that emerged after a series of landmark events around 1500 AD (from say as early as the Black Death through the Italian Renaissance, the invention of the printing press, the Age of Exploration, the Protestant Reformation, and going perhaps as very late as the Treaty of Westphalia) that it can form a coherent subject.

Adding, say, Pre-Columbian Studies to the subject of Medievalism seems more like academic imperialism than a useful way to organize knowledge. When Columbus reaches the New World in 1492 sounds like a good point to begin seriously fading out both Pre-Columbian Studies and Medievalism.

As for People of Color being in medieval Western Europe, here’s a posting from this site:

Uncovering the African Presence in Medieval Europe
by ADAM SIMMONS on APRIL 27, 2017

He mentions a French account of the Fourth Crusade that plundered Constantinople, which recounts in 1403 a visiting king in Constantinople with “black” skin and a cross on his forehead:

“I’faith,” said the emperor, “this is the king of Nubia, who is come on pilgrimage to this city.”

Nubia is a place up the Nile, southeast of Aswan in modern Sudan. The current residents are moderately dark in skin color. I don’t see any analyses of ancient DNA, but they probably won’t be all the different from what we can see today.

This pious Christian king from Nubia wanted to make the pilgrimage all the way to Santiago de Compostela in Spain. One Latin text from the era mentions Nubians as one of 72 nations having visited the Spanish shrine, so who knows if the king made it or not. I hope he did.

But of course this is just a version of Orientalism. Call it Ornamentalism when instead of visiting exotic foreign lands you look for accounts of exotics making long, arduous journeys to your lands. I’m a fan of Ornamentalism or, as you might call it, Prester Johnism, as I wrote last year about Ethiopians visiting medieval Europe in Taki’s Magazine:

Interestingly, it appears that Christian Ethiopia may have first reached out to medieval Europe rather than vice versa. Perhaps due to word of the ongoing success of the Christian reconquista of Spain, in 1306 the Ethiopian emperor sent a diplomatic delegation of thirty to the Pope in Avignon to discuss a mutual defense pact against the Muslims.

Roman Catholics had long dreamt of contacting a Christian ally on the far side of the Islamic world, perhaps in India or Central Asia, to open a second front against the Muslims. They had a name for this legendary potential comrade: Prester John. He was believed to rule a kingdom filled with exotic wonders, but still friendly to Western Christians.

The arrival of the Ethiopian delegation helped convince Europeans that Ethiopia instead must be the home of the formidable Prester John.

This proved confusing to Ethiopian diplomats, such as the four who attended the Pope’s Council of Florence in 1441. They patiently explained that “Prester John” was not one of the many titles of their king. But Westerners paid their protests no mind since their strategy was the same as Prester John’s would be: to team up with Europe against Islam.

Of course, the actual number of sub-Saharans in medieval Western Europe before the Age of Exploration must have been minuscule. Here’s a challenge for all the woke medievalists: designate medieval graveyards in Western Europe, such as next to pilgrimage sites, where you think the odds are highest that high tech graverobber geneticists like David Reich might find one medieval sub-Saharan.

Let’s find one.

 
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  1. Steve, have you read David Cannadine’s book Ornamentalism? It’s essentially a cheeky rejoinder to histories of the British Empire that see racism as its overriding ideological foundation (à la Said). His point is that the British imperialists were often more interested in ideas of class and rank, and the empire became a kind of aristocratic playground at a time when industrial democracy was on the rise at home.

  2. The Black Knight movie is clearly the perfect parody from notorious racist Martin Lawrence.

    These articles always strike me as being written by people trained as lawyers, making an argument they know is untrue with the use of slippery words. “Africans and other nonwhite people were present in medieval Europe” is true, and by repeating it they are trying to transform it into “were a large and critically important presence in medieval Europe.” Same with “feature the stories of a number of people of color.” What number, 10? No, it must be about 50% of such stories. But, of course, these critically important people of color had nothing to do with the Crusades or other currently objectionable aspects of medieval European life. They probably made a brave and woke stand against such things.

  3. The whole Prester John thing was wishful thinking of the worst sort. That dream died when most of the Mongols, who had successfully destroyed most of the old Islamic Empire, ended up converting to Islam themselves. They probably recognized that no religion is better suited to mindless conquest than Islam.

  4. The proportion of Africans in mediaeval Europe could also be calculated from the extent of African ingress into modern European DNA. It is likely to be negligible.

  5. dearieme says:

    The DNA of the people descended from medieval Europeans has been much studied. Is there much trace of African – specifically subSaharan African – descent? Not even 1/1024 I’ll bet.

  6. The whole Prester John thing was wishful thinking at its worst. That dream died after the Mongols (who had already destroyed much of the old Islamic Empire) converted to Islam themselves. The Mongols probably recognized that no religion is better suited to mindless conquest than Islam.

  7. Flemur says:

    Depictions of people of color in films, TV series, and video games about the Middle Ages are practically nonexistent.

    Depiction of people of non-color in films, TV series, and video games about ancient China or tribal Africa are practically nonexistent.

  8. Abe says:

    These articles always strike me as being written by people trained as lawyers,

    These articles strike me as being written by people trained as how to speak by lawyers for the benefit of little old men and women in black robes behind huge desks. In other words they’re lying scum, and I only wish we in real life had a black site rendition treaty with the Boltons to dump them off at the Dreadfort.

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
  9. anon[265] • Disclaimer says:

    The great New Thought speaker who called himself “Neville” (Neville Goddard, 1905-72) is a feast of Sailerisms. Not only did he come from English-dominated, high-IQ Barbados, but he claimed to have received his teachings from a “black Ethiopian rabbi” called Abdullah.

    Mitch Horowitz has tried to track this “Abdullah” down but with little success; the closest candidate was a figure in the Marcus Garvey movement in 1930s New York who later emigrated back to Ethiopia and died shortly before the Italian invasion, but the dates don’t quite match up.

    “Abdullah” was likely a fiction, but it slots in nicely with Prester John, Ethiopia being cut off from degenerating Europe and thus preserving a purer, truer form of Christianity, Ethiopia having the oldest, largest manuscript of the Bible (88 books!), or having the Ark of the Covenant.

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/05/a-word-from-the-wise-guy-part-one/

  10. In the Middle Ages (and certainly the Dark Ages), most people lived and died in the same cottage and never ventured further afield than 10 miles. To suggest that medieval societies had the same level of heterogeneity as they do today is the PC equivalent of creationists insisting that man co-existed with dinosaurs at Genesis!

    And if their theory is true and the world of 1000AD looked more like the world of 2000 AD than 1500 AD, how come one continent was always heterogeneous and the others were always homogeneous. And what would incentivize all the peoples of the world to magically decide to settle backward Europe. What kind of person in Sung Dynasty China or Abbasid Caliphate thinks, “Times are tough here, I think I’ll try my luck with the Vikings!”

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  11. Gordo says:

    These articles always strike me as being written by people trained as lawyers, making an argument they know is untrue with the use of slippery words.

    That’s pretty much all modern journalism is.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  12. Anon[328] • Disclaimer says:

    So, there are two arguments here

    This kind of clear, analytical thinking is getting less and less common. Breaking problems down into their constituent parts and solving the parts one by one is the way lawyers work, but in the humanities you have to contextualize everything, which in practice simply means you can wiggle out of an argument you are losing by jumping to another unrelated point.

    Somethere, maybe Slate Star Codex, I read a description of two styles of disputation, one that divides an issue up and deals with each point separately, and one that conglomerates things. The idea was that there are two personality types. I don’t buy it. The latter approach is nonsense unless you are claiming that two supposedly unrelated issues are in fact related if you look closely enough.

    —–

    Oxford academic Diarmaid MacCulloch wrote a thousand page history of Christianity ten years ago (with the obligatory miniseries documentary), and to fill up the book he delved into some exotic branches of Christianity. Among them was Nubia (now Sudan), where it existed from very early days, and from the sixth century until the coming of Islam was the official court religion. Christianity survived the Islam in Ethiopia, however, but it was isolated from about the 7th century. These isolated version of Christianity are pretty interesting, having developed in their own directions. The weirdest is the version of Christianity that developed in secret on remote islands in Japan where Christians fled after the Jesuits started getting crucified. There was no Japanese bible and only a minimal amount of Christian doctrine and lore had been transmitted, so it turned into this weird variation of Buddhism that was passed down in families for centuries.

  13. Interestingly I never see any articles about the presence of Europeans in Medieval Africa – do the progressives who push this stuff believe that the traffic was only one way or are they afraid that saying that Europeans visiting Africa would justify colonialism or something?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Lockean Proviso
  14. TWS says:

    Will we have our Prester John? Will we tell tales of lost Christian Kings?

  15. Jack D says:

    It’s pretty much obligatory now that in any Hollywood picture set in the Europe of the past, you have to throw in a few black people. Since we get our mental picture of the past largely from film, kids growing up today will just assume that there were black people in the Europe of the past.

    • Agree: fish
  16. HonestBl says:
    @william munny

    The plan is always to muddy the waters because the facts do not support their assertions:

    “scientists do not use the word race but the word population” . Yeah, but it’s like saying that I say “french red wine” while a sommelier says ” a burgundy”.

    “Most crimes happen between people of the same race” does not say anything about the volume of black crime.

    The majority of their arguments are meant to derail the conversation. It’s quite sickening when you actually think about it

  17. Mr. Anon says:

    This is ultimately nothing less than a campaign to write white people out of their own history.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    , @bored identity
    , @Anon
  18. Jack D says:
    @william munny

    No, it has more to do with Communist propaganda than legal briefs. It’s like the WaPo headline that “Refugees are contributing to the economy in Germany” – it’s true that 1 out of 10 of them has gotten a job, so the headline is not technically a lie, it’s just highly spun. Legal briefs are designed to be read by judges and if you tried to spin a judge in such an obvious way you’d insult his intelligence and it would backfire on you. Leftism was always a Utopian project where you would re-imagine the world as a better more just place than the world that we have now, so it’s no great stretch to re-imagine the past.

    The filmed “past” is always a work of imagination anyway and has more to do with the present day than the actual past. Is making say Moses or Cleopatra black any less inaccurate than making them blue eyed Northern Europeans? The movie producers of the 1960s probably knew that the real Cleopatra didn’t look like Elizabeth Taylor but they were trying to sell movie tickets in the present, not make a historically accurate documentary.

  19. Raze the academy and salt the ground.

    • Agree: BenKenobi
  20. Vinteuil says:
    @william munny

    “Africans and other nonwhite people were present in medieval Europe” is true…

    That’s the motte.

    …and by repeating it they are trying to transform it into “were a large and critically important presence in medieval Europe.”

    That’s the bailey.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    , @Buffalo Joe
  21. This is going to end with them applying die to the faces and hands of the figures depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry, isn’t it?

  22. @Vinteuil

    The sort of bad faith we’re experiencing with regard to the historical race revisionism reminds me of a certain episode of Cheers for some reason.

    It’s the one where Cliff makes it on to Jeopardy! and the Final Jeopardy clue is “Archibald Leach, Bernard Schwartz and Lucille LeSueur.”

    • LOL: Vinteuil
  23. On lots (lots) of medieval paintings, the occasional Moor shows up. Painters were curious and the public was very much in need of interesting things to take home from a visit to a famous church, let’s say, to talk about.

    The Moors on Bavarian paintings and sculptures appeared around thirteen hundred – the theory from Medievalists goes like this: At about thirteen hundred, Europe, Asia, and Afrika had become known to a wider public and needed to be represented now in Christian art, to show the universal power of Christendom – the Moors started to appear then to show this to the peoples of Europe (and the world). This is from the Bavarian Television and has some nice examples:
    https://www.br.de/radio/bayern2/sendungen/land-und-leute/der-schwarze-weise-warning100.html

  24. You don’t have to read academic, Medievalist tombs. You could just read “Iberia,” James Michener’s entertaining book on Spain. It goes into the Muslim invasion of Spain during the Dark Ages. The architectural history of Spain has some Moorish influence for that reason, and the palace of Alhambra is all-out Islamic. Unfortunately, it is hard to use photos when people take snapshots on trips abroad, loading them into the Internet under vague licensing. Some rich person needs to travel the world, taking photos for students to use and dropping them into the Public Domain.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberia_(book)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra

    The Orientalist trends in Western art mostly come from China and Japan, with the Impressionists borrowing heavily from the perspectival devices and the casual subjects of the Japanese printmakers. The French applied arts (furniture upholstery & wall decor) have touches of chinoiserie patterns, derived from the Chinese porcelain that Western aristocrats were importing, so do British (& American) Georgian interiors, mostly in the wallpaper. In the Georgian style, it is the red-and-white chinoiserie pattern, not the blue and white.

  25. Mr. Grey says:
    @Jack D

    Once in Germany I met a very beautiful girl from Greece who resembled Elizabeth Taylor, and since Cleopatra was of Greek ancestry, I would say Elizabeth Taylor is much closer to what Cleopatra looked like than Cicely Tyson (an actress once used as an example by a devotee of Africana studies of what Cleopatra should look like).

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
    , @Jack D
  26. Mr. Grey says:

    I find this rejection of one’s own history truly mysterious. Europe has had it’s bad moments, but so has every other culture, and with great achievements also come great disasters. I can only blame it on the average person’s stunning ignorance of history and the concept of Intersectionality that is so in vogue with progressive types. Well-educated, upper middle class white academics have a negative Intersectionality rating, meaning they have no right to speak and are bad people. The only way to correct this is to be an ally to POC. Being an ally means not only endlessly apologizing for one’s culture but also promoting ideas to boost the self-esteem of the Victim Class, such as the notion that sub-saharan Africans lived and prospered across medieval Europe.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  27. songbird says:

    Depictions of people of color in films, TV series, and video games about the Middle Ages are practically nonexistent.

    Actually, it seems like there are quite a lot. King Arthur and Robin Hood seem to need to have black friends nowadays to show they are not racist. One recent King Arthur movie had at least three blacks in it.

    Given all this, what is funny is progs’ blatant hostility to whites in The Great Wall, which was a Chinese co-production, as well as Northern Euros as Greeks, when the Rock was cast as Hercules.

    • Replies: @Lurker
  28. Did Africans have a strong influence in Europe in the Middle Ages?

    Were Moors African?
    Was Spain part of Europe?

    Historians have long stated that knowledge and culture often spread from Asia or the Middle East through North Africa into Spain. And that much of this knowledge spread from Spain into the rest of Europe. Anything with an “al”, such as algebra or alchemy. Also clocks, the Hindu-Arabic number system, chess, etc.

    Crusaders also had contact with non-Europeans.

    And royalty and other elites sometimes had contact with non-Europeans, as did some traders.

    Realize that the countryside in non-Spanish Europe was a bit different. It was entirely possible to live one’s entire life in Sussex, never leave Sussex and never meet anyone from outside of Sussex. Someone like Meghan Markle would never be seen.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
  29. Bill P says:

    There were quite a few black Africans in Islamic Spain, and enough of them lingered on after the reconquest that eventually they were deported, by Phillip II I believe. I read about it in the Thomas Walsh biography on Phillip II, so it’s not some multiculti fantasy. Evidently, the blacks formed dance troupes and made their living as entertainers.

    • Replies: @Lot
  30. Well, you know, the Medieval Times were along time ago, but if blacks want to knights, to go along with being Kangs, I am cool with that. I remember hearing of a child named Sir Paris and another named Sir Mister. They did some nasty things in Medieval times so maybe we will hear about Sir Emmitt.

  31. @Vinteuil

    Vin, wait for the Europe was built on the back of Africans.

    • LOL: Vinteuil
  32. The link claiming “Africans and other nonwhite people were present in medieval Europe” leads to an endless series of posts at a website

    Yeah I saw that too.

    I was kind of suspecting they were going to cite Cheddar man, who was not medieval, and give me a good chuckle. But apparently no actual source on that one.

  33. Jimi says:
    @Jack D

    Not to quibble but the 1960s movie producers did their best to make Cleopatra look swarthier than Elizabeth Taylor naturally is. Elizabeth Taylor’s Cleopatra is what I imagine a 6-7th generation Greek woman in Egypt to look like.

  34. Lot says:
    @Bill P

    “There were quite a few black Africans in Islamic Spain”

    Nope.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    , @Bill P
  35. Consider things from the perspectives of those descended from outside the Hajnal lines: most of modern life is having your face rubbed in the reality that you didn’t build that. None of it. Your ancestors couldn’t even come up with the wheel. So you have to generate this fabulist version of history where hunter-gatherers are right there in the mix as the Anglo-European world builds Western civilization, instead of just existing with the other animals in the wilderness like you’ve done for millenia.

    There was a hilarious video by @CityBureaucrat (RIP) showing two African women moving a pile of sand. They used a wide-bladed adze that they wielded backhanded, dumped the sand in a metal bucket, then hoisted it on top of one woman’s head. I guess they alternated who had to carry the bucket.

    Two simple machines, the lever and the wheel, and they couldn’t put them in the right combinations to get shovels and wheelbarrows. Can you imagine what modern life looks like to such people?

    • Agree: GermanReader2
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Corvinus
  36. @Jack D

    Cleopatra was Greek. She might have looked like Elizabeth Taylor.

  37. Lot says:

    Possibly very good news tomorrow: Trump to raise the punitive tariffs on $200 billion of chinese imports from 10% to 25% starting tomorrow.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-backtracking-exclusiv-idUSKCN1SE0WJ

    Total Chinese imports are around $600 billion, and the promise last year is that the tariffs would cover nearly all imports starting 1/1/19. That got delayed to 4/1/19, then delayed again.

    If Trump wants the positive effects of the tariffs on US manufacturing to kick in by reelection time, he needs to move more aggressively.

    Please like and retweet the President’s tariffs posts!

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  38. OT but…anyone who watches The Science Channel can’t help but notice the sudden increase in wymyns and Peepuls o’ Kullah on the astronomy segments, including some black dude with an African sounding name who looks and sounds like he has marbles in his mouth. What ever happened to Alex Fillippenko. an award-winning professor at Cal Bezerkly and a recognized expert on supernovae? Or Professor Kaku for that matter?

  39. Travis says:
    @william munny

    it seems their term “people of color” includes Egyptians and Syrians, North Africans and middle eastern people were always considered caucasian , even by the racist anthropologists who defined the races into 3 categories, Negroid , Mongoloid and Caucasoid. “people of color” is more of a social construct than race and is an almost meaningless term when the NY times considers Ted Cruz to be a person of color. Last year Ted Cruz was listed as one of the few non-white senators.

    They conflate being from Africa as being a person of Color despite Northern Africans being considered caucasian, even the United States government still classifies them as white today, even as Egyptians have become less caucasian due to the slave trade. It seems the leftists are trying to confuse the issue of race by implying non-europeans are now “people of color”.

    They cannot even find Negroid remains in Egypt 1,200 years ago. Scientists took 166 bone samples from 151 mummies, dating from 1200 B.C. to A.D. 425, extracting DNA from 90 individuals. They found that ancient Egyptians share almost no DNA with sub-Saharan Africans. Instead, their closest relatives were people living the Levant. Strikingly, the mummies were more closely related to Europeans and Anatolians than to modern Egyptians. “The genetics of Egyptians did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300-year timespan we studied,” said Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute. So as late as 425 AD the Egyptians were still genetically not very different from Southern Europeans. If the presence of Blacks cannot be found in Egypt , it is doubtful they will find any Negroid presence in medieval Europe.

    • Agree: 95Theses
  40. @Dieter Kief

    On lots (lots) of medieval paintings, the occasional Moor shows up. Painters were curious and the public was very much in need of interesting things to take home from a visit to a famous church, let’s say, to talk about.

    Fair enough, but those aren’t depictions of Africans so much as darkened depictions of Europeans. The figures’ features aren’t African (nose, hair), so you get the sense that the artist is aware that there are men with very dark skin and hair, but that he has never seen one personally or had the opportunity to study one for enough time to notice these very obvious differences.

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
  41. kihowi says:

    Sometimes it seems like virtually all modern “arguments” are taking advantage of people’s innumeracy and illiterate confusion about terms like “average” and “on the whole”.

    “I once saw a dog with three legs so you can’t say that dogs have four legs.”
    You could call that invalidating a trend with an exception.

    Then you can go a step further and use that to suggest that that exception was actually about 50%
    “Since you can’t say dogs have four legs it’s pointless to talk about percentages and the only thing we can say about dogs is that they have a diverse number of legs”

    Replace “three legs” with “medieval negroes”, etc etc.

    I can never settle on an explanation. Do people really not know how numbers work, or are they just that cynical?

    • Replies: @res
  42. @Paleo Liberal

    Were Moors African?
    Was Spain part of Europe?

    Moors came into Spain from Northern Africa – from what we now call Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, etc. – and were of course African in that sense. They probably looked much like the current inhabitants of the North African coast. They were not negroid, and did not look like American blacks, whose origins are sub-Saharan.

    Crusaders also had contact with non-Europeans.

    Of course – like Saladin, for example. He was a Kurd.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Digital Samizdat
  43. istevefan says:

    But scholars know that the medieval world was not limited only to England or Western Europe. And even if it were limited to only Western Europe, it would still feature the stories of a number of people of color.

    I’ve never met anyone who thinks non-Whites or non-Europeans never lived in Europe. In fact most people interested in European history are keenly aware of the various invasions of non-Europeans into Europe over the centuries.

    What we really have here is something we have encountered in other areas of debate. Namely, the other side is trying to rhetorically attack our position by holding our ideas to an impossible standard of 100 percent. By that I mean they think that if they can prove that one non-European lived in Europe during the time in question, then our whole position is invalid. This would be like someone pointing out to the Chinese that since Marco Polo lived in China for a while, their whole interpretation of Chinese history is flawed. We would not do that to China, so why would we allow others to do this to us?

    As I said this tactic has been used before. For example, when our side promotes building a border wall to reduce illegal crossings, the other side will point out that our wall will not be 100 percent effective since someone will inevitably cross it. And since it won’t be 100 percent effective, we shouldn’t waste any effort on constructing it.

    Note that when it comes to their issues, no amount of contrarian information negates the validity of their idea. Point out to them that Head Start and other government programs are maybe 50 percent effective, and they will counter that it’s only that way because we have not properly funded it. Point out the existence of black slave owners, or non-Whites involved in the slave trade, and they will double down on their White supremacy tropes.

    On a side note, are blacks and other non-Whites even remotely interested in European history? Seems to me this is all being led by self-hating Whites trying to prove their virtue (pun intended).

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Vinteuil
  44. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:

    As a Catholic, I feel compelled to point out that Constantinople wasn’t “our land”. It was somebody else’s land and we should have stayed out, as pretty much everybody except those involved realized even at the time. Normally I think we should stop apologizing for the Fourth Crusade, but come on. Also, typo alert: 1403???

  45. @Jack D

    The movie producers of the 1960s probably knew that the real Cleopatra didn’t look like Elizabeth Taylor but they were trying to sell movie tickets in the present, not make a historically accurate documentary.

    Cleopatra VII was of Macedonian ancestry, being one of the Ptolemaioi. Moreover, since the Ptolemaic dynasty all contracted incestuous marriages, we can be reasonably certain that she was of pure Macedonian ancestry. The Wikipedia article on the Ptolemies is illustrated by a portrait of her, showing her white skin and red hair.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Jack D
    , @Lot
  46. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    I don’t know if I’m a nonwhite, but I’m interested in European history, because it is the history of the Church and of the American civilizational paradigm.

  47. @william munny

    Using vague and evasive verbal constructions is perhaps the defining M.O. of the NYT, which is an unending font of disinformation about everything.

    A second increasingly common technique is the rote invocation of “white supremacy” as their ad hominem foil. In this case, if you think Europe in 1300 A.D. was actually populated by Europeans you are endorsing “twisted” white supremecist fantasies of Nazis and the KKK. So, either get with our propaganda or you, too, are a Nazi-thinker.

    Then there is the obligatory false appeal to authority: “scholars know . . .”

    NYT-speak is really maddening to people who are used to subject-verb-predicate and a linear path of logic. Instead NYT-speak is all about talking in circles, making word associations, and creating a mood and feeling of goodness in the liberal reader.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Lurker
  48. Jack D says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    While technically “Moor” is synonymous with what we would call “Moroccan” today (same word root) – the Berber people of N. Africa, in fact Europeans had a sort of vague notion of African and Islamic peoples (most Europeans probably never saw one in the flesh even once in their lifetime) and used the term “Moor” very loosely. They didn’t always clearly distinguish between Arabs, Berbers and Sub-saharans (and indeed as you go down the Nile from Egypt into Sudan there is really no bright line – the people just gradually get darker and darker) and used “Moor” as a sort of catch-all for everyone who was not European or Asian. If you look at Medieval depictions of what they call “Moors” (and indeed depictions all the way to the early 2oth century) they can range from Mediterranean looking all the way to shiny coal black (“Blackamoors”). And when the Portuguese and Spanish went exploring further east, they were apt to call any dark skinned person they saw “Moros”, from Ceylon to the South Pacific.

    Remember these were the same people who thought the inhabitants of N. America were “Indians” – human taxonomy was not their strong suit.

  49. @Crawfurdmuir

    Yeah, the Moors almost certainly were Arabs. But it is also true that they imported Negro slaves from W. Africa into Spain and Portugal when they ruled those nations. The question is: how many Negroes were to be seen in the rest of Europe during that time period (roughly 700AD – 1500)? But for the odd Christian pilgrim, my guess is not too many.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
  50. Jack D says:

    Orwell laid it all out in the Principles of Newspeak, an appendix to Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    He didn’t realize that modern Leftists would use it as an instruction manual.

    The only real difference is that the Old Marxism was obsessed with class – in Communist China you had a “black” (bad) background which limited your career opportunities and so on if you were descended from the wrong social class (e.g. landlords or rich farmers), while being of peasant or revolutionary stock was a big plus factor , while Cultural Marxism is obsessed with race – in modern America you have a bad background if you are descended from the “wrong” (white) race while being of the “right” (non-white, especially black) race is good. Part of it is an appeal to karmic “justice” – in the New Order, the totem pole is flipped on its head and last shall be first. In both cases, there are still hereditary untouchables and Brahmins, they’ve just traded places. It’s really very crude and pre-modern for a supposedly “intellectual” ideology. Basically it’s a slave revolt – we’re all Haitians now!

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  51. Steve: You’re prob. right about the blacks, but you got me doodling here.

    Taking the Middle ages as lasting from the Fall of Rome (9/4/476) to the Fall of Constantinople (5/29/1453), that’s a heck of a long time. The mid-point is at 1/15/965 (think Germans & Byzantines up, Vikings & Magyars down https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/965 ). The quarter-points are 11/9/720 (think approx. Battle of Tours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720s#720 ) and 3/24/1209 (think approx. Magna Carta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1209 ). L-o-n-g time.

    And fer crying out loud, Steve, there’s only one “i” in “minuscule.”

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Abe
    , @Hail
  52. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    To be quite fair, your ancestors (assuming they come from within the “Hajnal line”-demarcated region) most probably didn’t invent the wheel either.

    Nor the law of the lever (they had the lever itself, though), nor the zero, nor (considering Leibniz never married), even binary arithmetic.

  53. Benjaminl says:

    Off-topic:

    Behind the scenes at a Clickbait Outrage Content Farm

    https://theoutline.com/post/2156/mic-com-and-the-cynicism-of-modern-media

    • Replies: @Tex
  54. @Kaplan Turqweather

    As recently as the 1950s there was a TV show that had a guy who could figure out within 100 miles in rural areas or 10 miles in urban areas where someone came from based on their speech.

    My father told me one time he was watching the show and there was a woman who had what seemed to be a posh English accent. The guy on the show correctly placed her within a mile in an upper class neighborhood in the upper east side of Manhattan where rich snobs tended to affect posh English accents.

    In England people could be placed in much smaller areas.

    • Replies: @jim jones
  55. istevefan says:
    @Dieter Kief

    On lots (lots) of medieval paintings, the occasional Moor shows up.

    They show up. Check out the flag of Sardinia. Check out the flag of Corsica

    • LOL: Gordo
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  56. Cortes says:
    @Lot

    From Wikipedia:

    “. En referencia a los negros, las fuentes árabes citan frecuentemente a los abid o sudán como parte integrante de la sociedad. Abderramán III tenía una guardia negra personal que asistió a la investidura del nuevo califa Al-Hakam II, siguiendo a los eslavos en el cortejo. Cuando estalló la revolución en el siglo XI se alinearon con los bereberes. Las mujeres negras eran muy apreciadas como cocineras y concubinas. En general los negros y mulatos eran mal vistos por la aristocracia andalusí y vivían como esclavos y eran el escalón más bajo de la sociedad”

    The Abderramán in question is listed as first Caliph in Córdoba.

    Mass migration over the last century or so has made a difference but in general the population skin colour becomes progressively darker as you travel from north to south in Spain and plenty of Spanish people are very dark skinned indeed. And they tend to be a bit squat rather than slim and tall like Berbers.

  57. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pseudodositheus

    They don’t much care about medieval Africa. There would certainly have been Europeans in North Africa but as you go to the sub-Saharan regions their presence becomes less likely (until the Portuguese started their exploration program).

  58. res says:
    @kihowi

    Good analogy.

    I can never settle on an explanation. Do people really not know how numbers work, or are they just that cynical?

    How about: many people don’t know how numbers work and many of those who do are cynical enough to exploit that.

  59. Lurker says:
    @songbird

    Actually, it seems like there are quite a lot.

    Rather too many in fact.

  60. gcochran says:
    @Travis

    Egyptians in Roman times had ~10% sub-Saharan African ancestry. mostly from Nubia. Today it’s about 20%, roughly equally from Nubia and West Africa.

    I read the paper.

    • Replies: @res
  61. Olorin says:
    @Mr. Anon

    More accurately, to replace whites in their own history/ancestry with others who had nothing to do with it.

    Just as whites are being replaced in the present.

    Retconning history is a powerful tool.

    If you look at the first five books of the Old Testament, you’d think that (out of being taught that) the people who wrote them were, oh, say, slaves in Egypt or something in the 13th century BC. And that these books were written long before, say, the third century BC. Out of Hellenistic sources and philosphy.

    https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/review-russell-e-gmirkin-plato-and-creation-hebrew-bible

    Interesting little note there. Ramses II is widely considered the most respected, accomplished, and powerful pharoah of Egypt’s various ancient empire(s). Isn’t it interesting that the Jewish mythos places themselves squarely in the middle of that story, and declare themselves the pyramid builders and such.

    We was slaves. Also kangs.

    https://forward.com/culture/397911/passover-jews-in-egypt-coexisted-with-muslims-christians/

    Sounds oddly familiar.

  62. Lurker says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    If Europe was once teeming with PoC, where did they go? I mean until the present enlightened era.

  63. Alden says:
    @Jack D

    Cleopatra and all her ancestors going back to Macedonian Alexander’s Macedonian half brother Ptolemy 1 and his Macedonian Queen Bernice were Macedonians and looked a lot more European than the present inhabitants of Egypt. In fact they were European all of them, from 318 BC to around 30 BC.

    Taylor or any European woman looked a lot more like the real Cleopatra than the African fantasies or Arabs who arrived 600 years after her death.

  64. @istevefan

    Right. The flag of Sardinia shows the head of a decapitated Moor.
    Around the Mediterranean, there are up to this day festivals and festivities (often times held after the vine harvest – in the most joyous time of all year) which remind the locals of the centuries of Moor attacks and women theft at the coastline from Italy to Portugal and Spain. I’ve been to such a festival at times on Elba, with very impressive scenes, really, showing the attacks – and how the women were defended by their brave men in historical costumes, and lots and lots of new vine at every corner!

    – For centuries, this was understood by just about everybody who got to know something about these festivals. – But, sigh, not any longer. I’ve had a long lasting battle with leftists on a German bog, who held, that these festivals – – – represent: International friendship and the openness of the Mediterranian peoples towards foreigners. – – – – Incredible, but true.

  65. Arclight says:

    It seems to me what work historians’ insistence that the past in Europe was actually diverse based on the largely temporary presence of this envoy or that is basically a version of the One Drop Rule.

    A Diverse Person set foot in Europe at some point, which means a) it must be mentioned at every opportunity, b) it’s absurd to view Europe as more or less racially cohesive, and c) no one really cared about race back then so medieval Europe was more progressive on such matters than modern Western Civilization.

  66. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    Cleopatra was Macedonio-Persian (as well as hevily inbred), we’ve been down this route. In most of her depictions she looks more or less what you’d expect an inbred royal to look like, but all of them are stylized after either Greek or Egyptian ideals.

  67. Abe says:
    @Jack D

    The filmed “past” is always a work of imagination anyway and has more to do with the present day than the actual past. Is making say Moses or Cleopatra black any less inaccurate than making them blue eyed Northern Europeans?

    Well, they did find the mummy of a pharaoh (Ramses?) with naturally red hair, I think. But, yes, during the later Roman Empire it was popular for middle class Roman Egyptians to purchase coffins with pretty exquisitely painted portraits of the deceased on the lids, some of which have survived intact, and they look very much like what you’d expect Rami Mallick’s extended family to look like.

    Interestingly I’ve found just browsing on Wikipedia (help us all when the SJWs REALLY get around to turning it into Wokepedia!) how different-looking the two ruling peoples of classical Persia are. The Parthians, who reigned during the first half of the Roman Empire, are very European-looking based on their iconography as well as what archaeological remains have been found. Basically given their appearance and derivation from a land a bit east of the Black Sea they are fairly pure neo-Yamnaya people. The Sassanians who replaced them in the latter half of the Roman Empire are much more typical Perisan-looking (check out the schnozes and Perse-fro’s on the series of post 250 AD royal coins!) The massive statue of Shapur I is a great example-

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Statue_of_Shapur_I

    this guy looks ready to move to LA, start a car dealership, and build a massively expensive ugly house!

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  68. Alden says:

    A lot of the medieval birth of Jesus pictures showed one of the 3 Kings and some of the kings servants as black. It was a way of proclaiming the universalism of Catholicism to all the people of earth The 3 Kings are an homage to the Zoroastrian origins of Christianity Jewish locals and Mother, Persian travelers at the arrival of the new God on earth.

  69. This proved confusing to Ethiopian diplomats, such as the four who attended the Pope’s Council of Florence in 1441. They patiently explained that “Prester John” was not one of the many titles of their king. But Westerners paid their protests no mind since their strategy was the same as Prester John’s would be: to team up with Europe against Islam.

    Some things never change. They are still forever explaining things patiently. We are still paying their protests ‘no mind.’ And everyone has it out for poor Islam.

    • Replies: @Lot
  70. theMann says:

    The first line of this article gave me the best laugh I have had in a while.

    In all seriousness, has any Medieval Scholar in the history of the world ever been on horseback? And am I the only one who would pay to see them joust White Nationalists?

    Getting to the point, including people in my ancestor’s history who weren’t there, and couldn’t have been there, is incredibly insulting, to me personally, and to my people. Where do these obvious Racists work, because we need to complain to their HR departments until they apologize. And then have them fired anyway.

  71. @Digital Samizdat

    Yeah, the Moors almost certainly were Arabs. But it is also true that they imported Negro slaves from W. Africa into Spain and Portugal when they ruled those nations.

    It was customary among the Mahommedans to geld male slaves, so as not to endanger the seraglio. This probably explains why there is not a large resident black population in Turkey, despite the endurance of slavery there until almost the end of Ottoman rule, or in Saudi Arabia, where slavery persisted until the 1960s. There was no interest in breeding new slaves – when more were needed, they simply imported new ones.

    We owe the presence of a distinct black community in the United States in good part to the statutory prohibition of the trans-Atlantic slave trade in 1808. This made the propagation of the domestic slave population profitable, as negroes had become in essence a kind of valuable livestock. Slaveowners had strong incentives to treat their slaves well when a slave of prime working age might be worth more than $1000 in gold at $20.67/oz. Slavery in the Islamic world by contrast was much more like slavery had been in classical antiquity, where if a slave displeased his master he might be fed to the eels.

    • Agree: Vinteuil
  72. Lot says:
    @william munny

    Very good comment!

    Here’s a letter from circa 1595 protesting “blackamoor” migration to London:

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/transcripts/privy_council.htm

    This document from Queen E uses the phrase “blackamoores and negroes” suggesting they are different groups.

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/transcripts/deportation_van_senden.htm

    However, they may not be different races, with blackamoor meaning a black slave purchased from north african traders, and negro more generally meaning any black.

    Blackamoor as a heraldry symbol are always subsaharan africans.

    However, so are plain Moors, most famously the version called Moor’s head used for Corsica and Savoy:

    This version doesn’t have the exaggeration SSA features found elsewhere however.

    European crests also sometimes featured silly white cavemen, called “wild man.” Here is Prince Phillip’s:

    Here’s Bergen op Zoom, Netherlands flag:

  73. Lot says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    The crusader states and mongols made several attempts at an anti-Mameluk alliance, but it never happened. Later when Muslim Mongols based in Iran invaded Anatolia, the local Christians sided with their Ottoman oppressors and helped the Ottoman army escape to Thrace to wait out the Mongols, a strategy which worked.

    • Replies: @Anon
  74. Abe says:
    @Lot

    European crests also sometimes featured silly white cavemen, called “wild man.” Here is Prince Phillip’s:

    That’s no caveman, bay-bee*! That’s sexy, swinging Hercules!

    [MORE]

    * felt the need, for no particular reason, to respond in an Austin Powers affect.

    • Replies: @Lot
  75. @Lurker

    If Europe was once teeming with PoC, where did they go?

    Genocided, probably. Another cause for reparations.

  76. @Dieter Kief

    Right. The flag of Sardinia shows the head of a decapitated Moor.
    Around the Mediterranean, there are up to this day festivals and festivities (often times held after the vine harvest – in the most joyous time of all year) which remind the locals of the centuries of Moor attacks and women theft at the coastline from Italy to Portugal and Spain. I’ve been to such a festival at times on Elba, with very impressive scenes, really, showing the attacks – and how the women were defended by their brave men in historical costumes, and lots and lots of new vine at every corner!

    When Francisco Franco was a young officer in the Spanish Army, Spain suffered Rif rebellions in its North African colony, comparable to the better-known ones in neighboring French possessions. Franco commanded a regiment fighting the rebels, and when the Queen of Spain visited to inspect his troops, he presented her with a large basket of roses, in the middle of which were set several decapitated Moors’ heads. This romantic gesture apparently had some reference to a mediæval Spanish legend that at the time would have been well-known to any educated Spaniard.

    The Queen’s reaction was not recorded.

    • Replies: @Lurker
  77. Bill P says:
    @Lot

    Yeah, there’s plenty of evidence they were there. It would be pretty strange if the Arabs hadn’t brought black slaves to Spain since they were using them everywhere else at the time.

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Jack D
  78. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    There was a successful Portuguese-Ethiopian alliance, led by Christopher da Gama who died in the conflict.

  79. res says:
    @gcochran

    I assume this is the paper (in case anyone else wants to read it)?
    Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

    Popular article about it: https://www.shh.mpg.de/423779/mummy-genomes

    Greg, do you think it is reasonable to speculate that the average Egyptian had more sub-Saharan African ancestry than the mummified elite? If so, any thoughts about magnitude?

    Do present day Egyptians vary in sub-Saharan African ancestry by social class?

    This excerpt from the paper is a counterargument to my point.

    Although we only analysed mummified remains, there is little reason to believe that the burials Rubensohn excavated belonged exclusively to a group of prosperous inhabitants on the basis of the far published references to excavation diaries and Rubensohn’s preliminary reports that permit a basic reconstruction. Rather it seems arguable that the complete spectrum of society is represented, ranging from Late Period priests’ burials that stand out by virtue of their size and contents to simple inhumations that are buried with little to no grave goods2. The widespread mummification treatments in the Ptolemaic and Roman Periods in particular, leading to a decline in standards and costs48 and the generally modest appearance of many burials further supports this assessment.

    • Replies: @gcochran
  80. Corvinus says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    “Consider things from the perspectives of those descended from outside the Hajnal lines: most of modern life is having your face rubbed in the reality that you didn’t build that. None of it.”

    Actually, the point of view is that some people, in this case the Alt Right, take exclusive credit for developing everything good while completely dismissing that their creations resulted in many bad things. Right on cue, you chime in to perpetuate this notion.

    “Your ancestors couldn’t even come up with the wheel.”

    Per usual, you need a history lesson and proper context. Jared Diamond wrote it. Europe and Asiaʼs geographical location promoted cultural exchange between its people in a way that the rest of the world lacked. By being orientated by a East-West Axis, domesticated breeds in one part of the continent could be used in another location on that continent due to the seasons and climate being relatively similar. Moreover, this East-West Axis allowed for a greater variety of plants and animals to be exchanged, given how Europe and Asia engaged in more trade compared to Africa-Europe and North America-South America. Innovations and disease also spread due to more frequent contact
    between Europe and Asia.

    Now, wheeled vehicles appear in late 400 B.C., near simultaneously in Mesopotamia and Central Europe. The wheel and axle was barely used in Sub-Saharan Africa (except Ethiopia and Somalia) until colonial powers arrived in the 19th century. Though not independently invented, the wheel was known to African societies.

    Why was it not adopted? Reasonably, it was not perceived to largely increase efficiency, considering this region had no drought animals (until European contact) or lack of suitable terrain in dense forests and mountainous areas. Where systems of slavery and forced labor were prevalent, it may also have reduced incentives to upgrade labor efficiency.

    So why did it take some parts of Africa longer use the wheel for travel? To a number of groups of people, they already had efficient means like the canoe. For instance, in the desert, riding on a camel may be better than being pulled on a carriage. Its height makes it less suitable for drought purposes than oxen, but from perhaps 1000 B.C. it was used in Asia and North Africa for drawing wagons and for plowing.

    In South America, the wheel and axle appear in sculpture and toys, but were not applied to transport. Lacking a suitable beast of burden here posed a limitation on the usefulness of any cart, and even following the introduction of the horse by the Spanish, the travois for tribal groups in North America was lighter and easier to assemble for a nomadic people.

    Even today pack animals have been used in places like Colorado in preference to wheeled carts. As for the native Australians, there was no beast of burden, there was unsuitable terrain, and the nomadic lifestyle produced no incentive to make use of rollers or wheels. It is like asking why the Swiss never developed a catamaran, or why intensive cultivation of rice never took place outside of Asia.

    Inventions must fulfill an urgent need if they are to gain widespread use. Their absence is to be expected if new technology introduced is deemed other than important. Diamond notes that Africa and the Americas were predominantly hunter-gather societies living in an environment where wild game was plentiful, edible plants grew prolifically, and the climate was moderate. There was no incentive to change what was an idyllic lifestyle.

    “So you have to generate this fabulist version of history where hunter-gatherers are right there in the mix as the Anglo-European world builds Western civilization, instead of just existing with the other animals in the wilderness like you’ve done for millenia.”

    The Anglo-European civilization would not have gotten off the ground had it not plundered the world for its natural resources. Of course, these hunter-gatherers were quite content with their own designs–sure, they would like the free stuff and gimmedats, who wouldn’t?–without being butchered by intruders for gold, glory, and God.

    “Two simple machines, the lever and the wheel, and they couldn’t put them in the right combinations to get shovels and wheelbarrows. Can you imagine what modern life looks like to such people?”

    You mean in a similar fashion like medieval alchemists? By the way, the lever and the wheel were most likely invented in Mesopotamia. Score one for the ancient world.

    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Alden
    , @Saxon
    , @Jack D
  81. Lot says:
    @John Derbyshire

    Europe in 500AD had very little in common with Europe of 1000AD.

    In 500AD, as in 300AD, you had Latin-speaking Christians in the South and West and pagan illiterates in the North and East.

    I’d make the Dark Ages its own period and date it from the end of the Western Empire to the start of Charlemagne’s reign in 768.

    The 650-750 period also marks the end to the migration period, the beginning of German civilization, the rise of the Papacy, and the end of North Africa being part of European civilization. Those transitions are at least as important as the technical ends to the Western and Eastern Roman Empires.

  82. Tipsy says:

    All of this is so transparent.

    The progressive left wants to turn Europe into a multi-racial paradise. It’s not working out very well: Identitarian movements are springing up opposing it, threatening the immanentization of their eschaton The rhetorical counter-response of the progressive left to this is “How can you, in good faith, oppose this? Europe has always been multi-racial !!11!”

    It’s 1917 all over again, except it’s race instead of class. Same swindle, different con.

  83. Lot says:
    @Bill P

    The Arabs brought black slaves to Spain in the 700s? Why bother when there were ample local Christians to enslave (and plenty of evidence of them enslaving Spanish Christians)?

    What specific evidence?

    The Moorish hold on Northern Spain was weak and short lived. Central spain was fairly poor and mostly controlled by Spanish converts to Islam, not Arabs. In Granada, maybe, but they still had slave raids into Christian Spain all the way into the 1400s.

    • Replies: @Bill P
  84. Jack D says:
    @Gordo

    In my experience, most journalists are dumber than lawyers (and sportswriters are dumber than other journalists). They are all Left-liberals for the most part but the smarter you are, the more skillful you are at lying through omission. By the time you get to junior reporter territory, they are wearing their biases on their sleeve and nobody who isn’t already a believer gets fooled. There’s a reason why lawyers get paid better than reporters.

    Most lawyers are smart enough to know that everyone (especially judges) doesn’t already agree with you and it is their job to convince those who might not be. Leftist reporters tend to assume that all people of good faith already share the reporter’s views. As people of good faith, their readers should already share certain common and basic assumptions – e.g. all humans have equal intelligence, that Trump is evil, etc. – so it is appropriate for the reporter to take these as a given and start their report from there. If you are going to write about a trip around the world you are not going to start by proving that the world is not flat – everyone already knows this basic fact.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @Alden
    , @Desiderius
  85. AndrewR says:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/TIA_EWING/status/1126429296019611650

    Fox Chicago reporter not only blurs the “ok” sign but calls for the man to be doxxed.

  86. Vinteuil says:
    @Mr. Grey

    Cleopatra was of Greek ancestry

    Maria Callas:

  87. guest says:

    There are probably no old white men actually interested in Medieval times left. University departments studying it are filled by the same sort of people who fill other studies, themselves full of the same ideas corrupting the Western mind. They bring up race because they kinda have to, because they’re bored, because they want to be Relevant, because the are subversive. Not towards contemporary culture, but towards the culture that’s been beat upon for 600 years.

    The rest of us laugh at them as they earnestly try to get us to believe in this:

  88. Jack D says:
    @Bill P

    Talk about coals to Newcastle. Why would they bring Africans to Spain when there were plenty of Christians who could be kidnapped into slavery? Over a million white Christians were kidnapped by pirates into slavery along the Barbary Coast right up until the 19th century (late enough to include some Americans). The US and other countries periodically bombarded the N. African ports in order to force the local sultans to give up piracy but the treaties didn’t really hold because, like Somalia today, the central government was weak and because piracy was vital to the local economy – it was far more lucrative than any other available business. The kidnapping didn’t really end until N. Africa was completely conquered by European powers in the 1830s. When are the Moroccans, Algerians, Libyans and Tunisians going to start paying reparations?

    • Agree: istevefan, ic1000
    • Replies: @Bill P
  89. @Alec Leamas

    William The Bastard DOES sound like a ghetto boy, doesn’t it?

  90. guest says:
    @Lurker

    Into your bloodstream, Jack!

  91. jim jones says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    I identified a chap who asked me for directions in London as a German simply because he had no accent, Brits always have a regional accent.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  92. Abe says:
    @John Derbyshire

    that’s a heck of a long time.

    Indeed! Wikipedia is wonderful, the closest I’ll ever get to living my time machine TV series character fantasy the way it allows me to jump between ages and civilizations with the click of a link.

    Since at least the time when Gibbon dissed them, the Byzantines have not been hugely interesting to Western historians despite their importance to Western history (ecumenical councils defining Christianity, Christianization of the Slavs, bulwark against Islam, repository of irreplaceable classic learning, etc.) yet Wikipedia helps bring them into better relief. Consider the fact that the Romans were fighting the Sassanian Persians for 400 years! It was the mother of all Cold Wars (Cold War not in the sense of their never militarily confronting each other, which obviously they did, but of two implacable superpowers with large professional military establishments locked in a twilight struggle neither is powerful enough to win or really make any significant change to their shared strategic reality).

  93. Jack D says:
    @Mr. Grey

    Elizabeth Taylor was known for her striking violet colored eyes and she also had a little ski slope nose, straight hair and very pale skin. None of these features are common among Greeks. Cleopatra probably looked like the women in the Fayum portraits – dark eyes, olive skin, curly black hair.

  94. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    We have a bit of an idea what Cleopatra looked like; her portraits though stylized mostly show very white skin and sort of frizzy hair.

  95. Anonymous[585] • Disclaimer says:

    It used to be…

    HEY HEY HO HO WESTERN CIV HAS GOT TO GO.

    In other words, Western Civ is ‘white supremacist’.

    Now it is…

    HEY HEY HO HO WESTERN CIV WAS AFRO… and POC.

    In other words, Western Civ was the product of Diversity.

    Well, one silver lining. Blame Diversity for slave trade and imperialism.

    As for the Orient, Crusade was not a white attack on POC since Western Civ was always diverse.
    And because Marco Polo visited China and Europeans traded with Japan in the 16th century, those were NOT Asian nations but ‘global hubs’.

  96. Vinteuil says:
    @istevefan

    Point out to them that Head Start and other government programs are maybe 50 percent effective…

    Head Start is, in fact, zero percent effective.

    Seems to me this is all being led by self-hating Whites…

    In all my many travels, I’ve never met any “self-hating Whites.” These people don’t hate themselves. They hate you & me.

    And the more they hate you & me, the more they love themselves.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
  97. Tex says:
    @Benjaminl

    That’s a pretty interesting article and well worth a read. There’s a meta-narrative bonus in it being presented on The Outline, which is patently a click-bait outrage farm with intellectual pretensions. I got to the end of the piece about Mic and find an article titled “Who Goes Nazi?”

  98. guest says:

    They really needed to spell out every single preferred enemy: American slaveholders (not any other kind of slaveholder, just American), the KKK (and they can’t just say “KKK,” but spell it out), Nazi Germany, and Current Year badthinkers. At this point, I worry by being so specific the Public Medieval Fantasist runs the risk of leaving some necessary evil group out. Which can get you in hot water.

    It surprises me that they cite the Martin Lawrence vehicle Black Knight, considering how perfect a meme it makes against Woke Medievalists. Because they are that ridiculous. They want us to believe Sir Martin Lawrence would fit into 14th century London perfectly. Because they think we’re that stupid. (Presumably they’re attempting to preempt the mockery that’s already started.)

    By the way, were Southron slavocrats or the KKK actually interested in the fact of whiteness in Europe’s Middle Ages? I think they probably just took it for granted. The Nazis loved their runes and so forth, but I don’t know how much time overall they dedicated to denying the presence of undermen in Olden-day Mittleeuropa.

  99. Jack D says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    The portrait is posthumous and most likely imaginary as to many of the details such as hair color. Nevertheless, there are other images of Cleopatra and we know of her family as well – she was definitely European (Greek) and not “black” but didn’t really look like an English rose either.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
  100. England has always had an immigrant population, and at least one of Shakespeare’s heroes was black, and the first black to kiss a white person on stage until Kevin Costner and Whitney Houston repeated the trick, so no prejudice in the entertainment industry.

    “I am one, sir, that comes to tell you your daughter
    and the Moor are now making the beast with two backs.(IAGO,ActI,SceneI)”
    ― William Shakespeare, Othello

    And then there was the Black Prince, eldest son of Edward III, and noone knows quite how he got his name, but there is no doubt that he was black-hearted.

    And now we have another black princeling, young Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Markle, who is qualified by birth to be both president of the US and king of England. The latter is somewhat unlikely as his uncle would have to take his whole family on a fated helicopter ride–but these things happen, as with the JFK line of succession. No doubt he will also be studying Kind Hearts and Coronets when he gets a bit older.

    My guess last week was that the child would get a name like George Washington Windsor that would lend him the name recognition to help him run for US president (St. George being the patron saint of England and the name of 6 kings and plus a future heir to the throne, and Washington being a place name in both England and the US.)

    However his parents did even better than I had dared to think with Archie being the name of the famous average American Archie Bunker and of a popular cartoon strip, and Harrison being the name of not one, but TWO US presidents as well as a Beatle.

  101. Mr. Grey says:
    @Jack D

    I totally agree. My point is that Elizabeth Taylor still likely resembles Cleopatra more than a sub-saharan African.

  102. Alden says:
    @Jack D

    Wikipedia has several sculptures of cleopatra Straight hair in a bun pointed chin pointed nose. Very European looking, 300 years of Macedonian brother sister ancestry. The Ptolemian dynasty weren’t ethnic Egyptian. They were Macedonian Greek. Her ancestor Ptolemy 1 was half brother of Alexander. Supposedly she was the first ruler who learned the Egyptian language. Her dynasty didn’t seem to mix with Egyptians. If they didn’t bother to learn Egyptian, it means that Greek, not Egyptian was the official language of Egypt.

    Taylor’s eyes weren’t violet blue either. They were just plain blue. No human animal bird or fish eyes are violet anyway. Violet eyes were just a PR thing.

    Taylor was a lot better casting choice than the very black very negro Inspector Jaubert in the latest BBC version of Les Miserables.

    Cleopatra was pure European. Any European ethnic actress would do.

    Taylor was cast because she was a major star whose movies always made money. Women flocked to Taylor films because of the melodrama scripts and her clothes. Men flocked to Taylor films because of what was in the clothes.

  103. Most of the NYT’s comments attacking/demeaning Medieval Europe seem to be, based on surname or outright admission, Jewish or non-white. My favorite comment is the one by, my guess, a black dude arguing that Genghis Khan and the mongols were paragons of peace, virtue and tolerance. Another subcategory are the jewish leftists trying to argue, hey, don’t lump us in with these primitive illiterate Europeans! We didn’t land on Medieval Europe! Medieval Europe landed on us!

  104. @Jack D

    Definitely had a touch of the tarbrush somewhere in the branches of the family tree, did Miss Cleo. Not a blonde like Helen of Troy.

    Was this the face that launched a thousand ships?

    Elizabeth Taylor may not have looked a lot like Cleopatra, but one of the things about acting is that you have to pretend to be someone else and make an audience temporarily believe in you.

    • Replies: @Alden
  105. Corvinus says:
    @Jack D

    Let’s flip the script here.

    In my experience, most Alt Right commenters are dumber than non-Alt Right commenters. They are all right-conservative for the most part but the smarter you are, the more skillful you are at lying through omission. By the time you get to respond to numerous websites, the Alt-Right commenters are wearing their biases on their sleeve and nobody who isn’t already a believer gets fooled. There’s a reason why non-Alt Right commenters see right through the Alt Right.

    Yet, there are people are smart enough to know that everyone doesn’t already agree with you and it is their job to convince those who might not be. The Alt Right tends to assume that all people of good faith already share their views. As people of good faith, their commenters should already share certain common and basic assumptions, so it is appropriate for the Alt Right to take these as a given. The problem is that the Alt Right has their own predispositions and confirmation biases, as well as an echo chamber.

    Again, see how easy it is to flip the script, Jack D?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  106. Vinteuil says:
    @Lot

    Please like and retweet the President’s tariffs posts!

    But that would require one to sign up for Twitter. That’s too high a price to pay.

    • Replies: @Lot
  107. songbird says:
    @Lot

    I always thought HL Mencken’s use of the word “blackamoor” was funny.

    I had presumed that it was just a sort of redundancy, with “black” being the old way “moors” were perceived, but then there was the fish to throw doubt on the theory.

    • Replies: @Lot
  108. Alden says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Othello wasn’t a hero. He was so stupid he believed what Iago told him. Then he murdered his wife.

    In the first part of the play he tells Desdemonda that he’s Egyptian. He was captured in a Turkish slave raid at 14. The handkerchief was his mother’s. His family was killed in the raid. He grabbed his mother’s handkerchief and kept it through all his travails and triumphs
    He and some Italian slaves escaped. He joined the Navy and rose to admiral fighting the Turks.

    Moor didn’t mean SSA negro at the time. It meant Arab. The moors as SSA negroes is a 20 the century lie.

    Orhello is based on a true event. A Venetian admiral strangled his wife because she had an affair. Or he thought he had an affair.

  109. Alden says:
    @Jack D

    Leftist reporters remind me of today’s clergy. The only people who attend services today are true believers who believe every word the preacher says.

    That’s who reporters think they are, clergy preaching to true believers.

  110. gcochran says:
    @res

    Differences in ancestry between elites and average in ancient Egypt: I wouldn’t really expect much difference. Over time things tend to homogenize. At the very top, dynastic marriages may made a difference.

    Do present-day Egyptians vary in SSA ancestry by social class? I don’t know. Copts have less, I think.

    Given enough time, skin color alleles are no longer tightly associated with ancestry fractions.

    • Replies: @res
  111. They are correct, there were plenty of People of Color in mediaeval Europe. There were Arab invaders, colonizers, and slave-owners, cutting off sea-trade routes and land trade routes, repressing European development for centuries. There were Berber, Moorish and Turkish invaders, colonizers, and slave-owners; there were Jewish invaders, loan-sharks, tax extortionists, fraudsters, and (of course) slave-traders, who gladly and at great profits sold European women and children to Muslim People of Color for use as rape toys. There were Turks who kidnaped Christian European boys, tortured and brainwashed them, and turned them into soldiers fighting against and slaughtering their own people. There were Mongol invaders, colonizers and slave-owners, who deliberately introduced the Black Plague into Europe via the Crimea. People of Color were so vibrantly present that they killed off close to one-third of Europeans with imported plague — lots more killed than Mesoamericans killed by smallpox.

    Yes, you bet your bippy there were vibrant and diverse People of Color present in Europe all throughout the Middle Ages.

    Now they better get busy with the reparations. Lots and lots and /lots/ of reparations, quick smart.

  112. Lot says:
    @Vinteuil

    Yeah I hope that goes without saying.

    Every patriot IMO should:

    Cancel cable TV
    Use craigslist, offerup, ebay and thrift stores before buying imported Chinese crap from retailers
    Avoid giving money directly or indirectly to major league sports
    Drive the most efficient American-assembled car that is practical for their life
    Use an adblocker for their browsing
    Invest only in Vanguard funds, real estate, and precious metals

    These few steps deprive hollywood, wall street, red china and the oil arabs of $$$ for little to no effort. I’ve never met anyone who regretted cord-cutting and went back to regular cable TV.

    • Replies: @Alden
    , @Gordo
    , @Redneck farmer
  113. Alden says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    So you believe the public school history you were taught? Was the chapter on Egyptians littered with black Pharaohs and Queens?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  114. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Jack D

    The Ptolemys were Macedonian.

  115. OFF TOPIC

    Chubby, fat-faced Danish guy says that Danes will be a minority in Denmark in 2040 because of mass legal immigration.

    Danish guy likes to eat and bash the Hell out of the ruling class of Denmark. Good for him!

    This portly Danish political leader made his comments in a debate on TV and the other politicians didn’t like it.

    Pernille Vermund is a shapely and beautiful Danish political leader who also supports a Denmark and Danes First immigration policy that serves the national interests of Denmark.

    Meanwhile…in the USA…Biden supports mass legal immigration and illegal immigration.

  116. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    …straight hair and very pale skin. None of these features are common among Greeks.

    First, it is hard to classify what the Greeks looked like then because the ones who call themselves Greeks today can vary considerably. I am assuming it has something to do with being at the crossroads of civilization for 2500 years with conquerors coming and going, and a lot of foot traffic crisscrossing the region. Additionally non-Greeks in the Hellenic world might have come to culturally identify as Greek and their descendants do so still today.

    Having said that I have seen quite a few Greeks that have straight hair and very pale skin. What I find interesting is that though their skin is pale, it lacks the rosy colored checks that one finds in some people on the British isles. So even if you put one next to a some Brit and their skin tone is similar, they don’t have that reddish color in their cheeks.

  117. Lot says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    “pure Macedonian ancestry.”

    Mostly Greek, sure. Purely, I doubt it. 300 years is a long time to stick with one extended family. Some of those brother-sister and “double uncle” inbred marriages might have resulted in a string of stillbirths and early deaths, with the queen later resorting to a secret outside sire whose children turned out healthier. We know high status Romans (among others) without sons also adopted males from their extended family, and this may have happened without being recorded and preserved.

    The line also mixed with other Hellenic royalty that could have previously outbred with the locals they ruled. So I’d wager she had some Syrian or Anatolian ancestry too.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  118. Alden says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Harrison, son of Harry. Archie, not Archibald is supposed to be a fairly popular boys name in England.

  119. Vinteuil says:
    @Jack D

    Old Marxism was obsessed with class – in Communist China you had a “black” (bad) background which limited your career opportunities and so on if you were descended from the wrong social class (e.g. landlords or rich farmers), while being of peasant or revolutionary stock was a big plus factor , while Cultural Marxism is obsessed with race – in modern America you have a bad background if you are descended from the “wrong” (white) race while being of the “right” (non-white, especially black) race is good.

    Excellent, succinct summing up of “Old” Marxism, Cultural Marxism, and the relationship between them.

    Part of it is an appeal to karmic “justice” – in the New Order, the totem pole is flipped on its head and last shall be first.

    Matthew 20:16 – were any more unfortunate words ever written?

  120. @Prester John

    Over on the BBC we have a large and jolly Nigerian woman on our flagship astronomy program,

    replacing the late, magnificent and very un-PC Patrick Moore.

    Btw has Steve seen the latest massacre news from Bronze Age Europe?

    https://www.forensicmag.com/news/2019/05/ancient-mass-grave-poland-yields-dna-tale-massacre

    The 15 people—men, women and children—had been killed with violent blows to the head. But they were buried with apparent care, with rich grave goods and a mother buried cradling her child, some 5,000 years ago in what we now call Poland…

    The group had a mix of western hunter-gatherer (approximately 30 percent) and Neolithic farmer DNA (approximately 70 percent), but no ancestry from the steppes.

    The DNA revealed eight males and seven females. Three were young boys, between 1 and 6 years old. The other males were estimated to have been in their late teens, or older than 40 at the time their deaths. The females spanned the age gamut from teenagers to a woman between 50 and 60. Four whole nuclear families were in the grave.

    The people were not inbred, even though they all shared a Y chromosome, because six different maternal lineages were found in the mitochondrial genetic analyses.

    Parents were buried next to children, and siblings were placed side by side.

    The theory of the massacre: that the fathers and husbands of the victims arrived after the slaughter to honor their dead—and that it was part of a larger historical shift in prehistoric Europe.

    “Although the reason for the massacre is unknown, it is possible that it was connected with the expansion of Corded Ware groups, which may have resulted in competition for resources and violent conflict,” the authors conclude. “Evidently, these individuals were buried by people who knew them well and who carefully placed them in the grave according to familial relationships.”

    Obviously they were killed by blows to the head from clay pots with a distinctive corded design!

  121. OT

    Low time preference in action. Medicaid patients sell their expensive life-saving prescriptions for $20-$100. Bonus: the runner is Ahmed Mohamed, and the crooked pharmacist is Elfatih Ibrahim.

    https://www.nj.com/hudson/2019/05/jersey-city-at-the-center-of-11-million-meds-for-cash-scheme-officials-say.html

  122. @Hapalong Cassidy

    ‘…They probably recognized that no religion is better suited to mindless conquest than Islam.’

    Then why is Christianity associated with a far greater area of conquest?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  123. I think the historians were right. I went to Medieval Times and saw four blacks there.

  124. J.Ross says: • Website

    Real real good one. Dig: Michigan Public Radio airs an Arab chemical engineer whose hobby is stand-up comedy. His first line bemoans the unforgivable burden oppressed upon his white and sinless neck by stupid bigoted flyover country redneck Americans. About twenty seconds later, exact words: “My uncle was a general in Saddam’s army.”
    https://www.michiganradio.org/post/abdallah-jasim-how-he-uses-comedy-navigate-life-muslim-american

  125. Alden says:
    @Lot

    Why but an American car. Detroit is where the auto manufacturers imported blacks and allowed them to take over and destroy the city. Fords? The Ford Foundation was the main funder of the feminazi movement and anti White affirmative action. TheFord family started it as a tax dodge. With all that money and power the family could have done something about the Ford Foundation’s anti White activism. Know who funded and sent employees to set up LARAZA and MALDEF the first radical Hispanic organizations? Ford Foundation and its Marxist anti White workers.

    I don’t want to enrich black Detroit by buying American cars. Or the capitalist pigs who funded affirmative action lawsuits and rulings.

  126. a tactic they’ve always used is “One is the same as all.” that is, if there was one african anywhere in europe ever, that’s exactly the same as the UK being turned into Nairobi right now in 2019. there was an african here once 500 years ago, so what’s the difference? one african here once, 100 million africans here forever, that’s the same exact thing.

    they employ a similar tactic, that i call balance, for anti-social behavior. but it’s used in the reverse. one european man broke some law at some point here, so europeans are the problem, or, european men are just as likely to do whatever anti-social thing it is, and so forth. so there’s no difference between europeans and the vibrant for whatever it is in question.

    the actual numbers are irrelevant as long as they get their one single example. they’ll harp on that for decades and decades.

    “Crispus Attucks, therefore the revolution and entire history of the United States has always been as black as night, that’s who we are, africans are THE core element of the country and built everything…”

    “Ah ah ah white guy. Timothy Mcveigh. We’ll never let you forget. Our reply to every single discussion. Don’t start talking about anything. Nope, wrong. Timothy Mcveigh. Whatever you say, that’s our answer, we’re right, you’re wrong, white guys are dangerous threat to us all, other people are no more dangerous than white guys.”

    the battle over which exact person sets foot on mars first will be one of the biggest battles in the history of mankind.

    sports leagues and sports commissioners desperately use the second tactic, balance, to make the leagues seem more fair. and increasingly, most sportswriters employ this as one of their central tools. they’re under the same pressure as public school administrators with regard to rule breakers and discipline.

  127. @istevefan

    We have a pretty good idea of what Cleopatra looked like because her likeness in profile appears on coins. There’s a good chance the portrait is accurate, because it’s not idealized, and it’s not flattering.

    Cleopatra was an Eastern Mediterranean-looking woman who was somewhat homely, and who had straight hair and a large, strong, very prominent nose. She looked more formidable than she did beautiful. I’m pretty sure /I’d/ be afraid of her.

    We can’t tell skin color from the coins, but she was quite obviously Caucasoid, and the entire Near East and Eastern Mediterranean was a lot “whiter” in those days than it is today. Even now, plenty of Syrians (viz. NOT “Arabs”) can easily pass for Europeans. The ancient Sumerians in their self portraits went to great lengths to indicate that they had blue eyes.

    • Replies: @Lot
  128. Gordo says:
    @Lot

    Every patriot IMO should:

    Cancel cable TV
    Use craigslist, offerup, ebay and thrift stores before buying imported Chinese crap from retailers
    Avoid giving money directly or indirectly to major league sports
    Drive the most efficient American-assembled car that is practical for their life
    Use an adblocker for their browsing
    Invest only in Vanguard funds, real estate, and precious metals

    These few steps deprive hollywood, wall street, red china and the oil arabs of $$$ for little to no effort. I’ve never met anyone who regretted cord-cutting and went back to regular cable TV.

    A lot of good advice there.

    • Agree: jim jones
  129. @Lurker

    It’s called intermingling.

    The were invasions from Africa. Although the SSA percentage of the invaders was usually low, it was higher than among the invaded. There were a few blackamoors amongst the lighter skin Moors. The Moors were darker than the Spanish. The Spanish word Moreno refers to someone who has darker skin, hair and eyes than the average Spaniard. Still plenty of people in Spain called Morenos.

    Sometimes the invaders married local whites. Sometimes in warfare women get raped.

    The people in areas invaded by Africa, such as Iberia, Sicily, Corsica, etc. these days tend to be darker than those from areas NOT invaded by Africans.

    There is some speculation that the royal family of Portugal intermarried with Moors, possibly even blackamoors. Queen Charlotte was descended from the Portuguese royal family, and there was a lot of speculation that she had African blood. She had a ton of kids, and just about every royal in Europe is descended from her. For example, both Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip are descendants of Charlotte through Charlotte’s granddaughter Victoria

  130. @Travis

    They conflate being from Africa as being a person of Color despite Northern Africans being considered caucasian, even the United States government still classifies them as white today…

    Well, ‘they,’ and the US government are 100% wrong.

    There is a tiny subset of the Berber ethnic group that could be considered physically and mentally, “white.”

    As for the other 99% of the population being, “white,” I can only say, “hell no!”

    Source: Lived in North Africa for 4+ years.

  131. Lurker says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    Lots of British pubs are named “The Saracen’s Head” and variants thereof.

  132. Altai says:

    Of course, the actual number of sub-Saharans in medieval Western Europe before the Age of Exploration must have been miniscule.

    This is obvious but really that isn’t their argument. It’s not the amount, it’s purely the presence. So a few Bantu-like people showing up in Southern European trade cities enough to have paintings made of them is supposed to retrospectively invoke the immigrant veto into the past.

    The immigrant veto is thus: the second a single immigrant with sufficient ethnocentrism (read: not a modern North West European) shows up in a foreign land, the natives lose all self-determination, no matter how slowly, they now cannot say this land is for them. It thus follows a one-drop logic. You can’t challenge this because no matter how few or how ungracious a guest the foreigner is, you’re not allowed to suggest their behaviour or the consequences of their presence is negative.

    Case-in-point of the immigrant veto.
    Trump says the US is ‘full’, but is it?
    By Rupa Shenoy
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48179914

    This was the original title, but they’ve seen thought better of having Rupa Shenoy on the by-line of that title, so now they’re claiming an American objection with ‘Trump says America is ‘full’ but this US state says ‘not us”.

    Iceland’s proposed ban on male circumcision upsets Jews, Muslims
    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/20/health/iceland-circumcision-ban-reaction-intl/index.html

    Maybe a dozen expat Jews in Iceland.

    • Replies: @Lurker
  133. Let me be clear. If you want your Orientalism, you can keep your Orientalism. So can I.
    Because, you did not build that Medieval Europe.

  134. Abe says:

    Those that do show people of palor typically only reinforce this paradigm. For instance, the 1997 film BEVERLY HILLS NINJA makes comedic hay out of the idea being white, uncoordinated, and massively obese is at odds with being a ninja.

  135. Mr. Blank says:

    It’s interesting how this phenomenon is treated differently depending on the direction in which it occurs.

    It’s probable that every culture produces people with wanderlust — this is how international trade networks form, after all. In a few extraordinary cases such people will wander far and wide. But if we found evidence that a white man from, say, 13th century France had traveled to sub-Saharan Africa (there must have been at least a handful who managed to do it, even if they left no records behind), it wouldn’t be upheld as proof that Africa has always been a natural extension of white, Christian Europe. The History Channel would not show a “reconstruction” of 13th century Nigeria with white Europeans worshipping in Gothic cathedrals.

    But if we find evidence that a sub-Saharan African man had somehow ended up in 13th century France (again, there must have been at least one or two), apparently that is unimpeachable proof that France has always had a population that looked like New York City circa 2019.

  136. …parts of the world that didn’t exactly have a Middle Ages because they didn’t have a Renaissance.

    Or a Classical Era to renaître to.

  137. Whiskey says: • Website

    The Chicago Cubs banned for life a fan who made the OK sign on tv. Said no interest in talking to him or getting his side of story.

    How soon are all White men banned from everywhere? All the time?

  138. @istevefan

    This happens in Asia too–some Asian women go to lengths to get “white” skin but never achieve the ruddiness of some Europeans. In extreme cases, they take on a kind of Michael Jackson coloration.

    I think the issue of what ancient Greeks looked like has been discussed here before. Dienekes seems to have the most extensive treatment.

  139. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Jonathan Mason

    That would be Shakespeare’s play about Venice, fighting wars with the nearby-to-Venice Ottoman Empire, from which the black hero had escaped. What part of England is Venice in? That like Leeds?

  140. donut says:

    Once upon a time in America :

    • Replies: @istevefan
  141. Jack D says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Moor could mean “black” but it could also mean N. African. Here is an Elizabethan portrait of a “Moorish” ambassador who some believe was the inspiration for Shakespeare’s character:

    • Replies: @istevefan
  142. Jack D says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    Oh bullshit. Charlotte was about as African as Elizabeth Warren is Indian. If there was any intermingling, it was before 1492 so 15+ generations ago. And I’ll bet that by the time you get to the current princes, it was down to undetectable.

  143. @Paleo Liberal

    There is some speculation that the royal family of Portugal intermarried with Moors, possibly even blackamoors.

    Before that, there is more than speculation that they intermarried with the English, hence the bit about “our oldest allies”. Prince Henry the Navigator’s mother was English, and her uncle or granduncle by marriage was John of Gaunt.

    It’s interesting that Charlotte, born in Mecklenburg, would be rumored to have African ancestry, but Catherine of Braganza, born near the southern Portuguese/Spanish border, would not. Queens County, New York, was ostensibly named for her, and the ukulele has its roots in her corner of Iberia.

    The people in areas invaded by Africa, such as Iberia, Sicily, Corsica, etc. these days tend to be darker than those from areas NOT invaded by Africans.

    Yes, it’s probably sunnier there!

    Ulcinj in Montenegro was a pirate’s lair, and it’s claimed many there descend from a mostly African crew escaping a shipwreck hundreds of years ago.

  144. BenKenobi says:
    @Abe

    Roose Bolton did literally nothing wrong.

  145. Anon[166] • Disclaimer says:

    When people experience too much cognitive dissonance, they start rewriting history. POC in the West can’t stand the thought that they’re just newcomers who used to live in huts in Africa very recently , so they’re trying to write themselves into this cool culture that they so desperately envy and want to be part of.

  146. @Lot

    if there shall be any person or persons which be possessed of any such blackamoors that refuse to deliver them in sort aforesaid, then we require you to call them before you and to advise and persuade them by all good means to satisfy her majesty’s pleasure therein; which if they shall eftsoons willfully and obstinately refuse, we pray you to certify their names to us, to the end her majesty may take such further course therein as it shall seem best in her princely wisdom.

    …the original “E”-verify!

  147. J.Ross says: • Website

    Jean-Pierre will not make a sequel to Amelie because “Paris is ugly now.”
    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/amelie-sequel-jean-pierre-jeunet-audrey-tautou-paris-france-a8904181.html
    He specifies “construction.”

    Jeunet’s new film TS Spivet had a botched release in the US after distributor Harvey Weinstein shelved the film in retaliation for Jeunet refusing to make cuts.

  148. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Whiskey

    If goyishe kopp was a slur, there’d be no need to wait to find out. But let’s keep giving money to people who genocidally despise us and want us broke, beaten up, imprisoned, homeless, killed, humiliated, and so on, because maybe the pigs will be nicer if we will work harder.

  149. @Mr. Blank

    One of these medievalist posts mentioned a Sicilian in the 1300 or 1400s who was kind of the Marco Polo of Ethiopia. He showed up in Ethiopia and got a job with the Emperor or whatever kind of government they had and went on diplomatic missions for Ethiopia in the Indian Ocean region.

    My assumption is that this doesn’t justify Mussolini invading Ethiopia, but you never know …

  150. @Alec Leamas

    applying die to the faces and hands of the figures depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry, isn’t it?

  151. Corvinus says:
    @Whiskey

    “How soon are all White men banned from everywhere? ”

    Never.

  152. John of Gaunt brings up Inman, Bayne, Armytage, Bland, Hardin, Buttner, Stovall, Wilkins, Lampley, Paxson, Bezer, Withers, Lawrence, Russell, Kitson, Manners, Daubney, Donington, St. Leger, Hungerford, Kerby, Fox, Bailey and others.

  153. istevefan says:
    @Whiskey

    How soon are all White men banned from everywhere? All the time?

    Easy fix to that Whiseky. Boycott. Use the power of your money. We still do make up 1/3 rd of the nation and an even greater proportion of the GDP.

  154. @Paleo Liberal

    The people in areas invaded by Africa, such as Iberia, Sicily, Corsica, etc. these days tend to be darker than those from areas NOT invaded by Africans.

    Obligatory HBD-relevant YouTube clip from the film True Romance:

    • Replies: @istevefan
    , @Lot
  155. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    The adjective black gets thrown around a lot and means different things in different times and places. Yet contemporary Americans who discover the term in some old manuscript immediately attach it to the meaning in the modern day American census

  156. istevefan says:
    @donut

    I have never seen that flick before, but that scene rings true. But there are two things to point out.

    First, the bugle call known as “Retreat” is the first one being played and the men are standing at parade rest. The soldiers ignoring this and scurrying towards the building would have been admonished at that time.

    Second, when Jackie Gleason and the rest come to attention and salute as the flag is being lowered, the bugle call being played was “To The Colors”. In this clip Jackie calls out “Retreat”.

    All in all it was pretty accurate of the daily routine of lowering the flag at an army base. And a high ranking sergeant like Jackie would have yelled at those guys who were ignoring the bugle and trying to get inside.

    If you ever visit an army base when they lower the flag, you will see everyone outside come to parade rest, then attention and then render a salute. Cars and trucks will stop and the occupants will exit and do the same. I’ve seen civilians in cars wondering what the heck is going on as traffic suddenly stops and everyone gets out to salute.

  157. @Prester John

    No problem, this reflects a rational division of labor. AA scientists who had to be dragged across the PhD finish line going on TV leaves real scientists more time to do their science.

  158. Lurker says:
    @Altai

    Trump says the US is ‘full’, but is it? By Rupa Shenoy

    I’ve checked the data, I can confirm there’s definitely one too many Rupa Shenoys already.

  159. Bill P says:
    @Lot

    Probably not so much as early as the 700s, but during the high Middle Ages. There are surviving bills of sale, some skeletons have been found, and there’s surviving 13th century art (e.g. Cantigas de Santa Maria illuminations) that depicts them there.

    By “quite a few” I don’t mean Chicago numbers, but rather a lot more than in non-Muslim Europe, which had practically none. People in Seville would would have been familiar with sub-saharans; Navarre probably not.

  160. @Paleo Liberal

    The Spanish word Moreno refers to someone who has darker skin, hair and eyes than the average Spaniard. Still plenty of people in Spain called Morenos.

    Moreno is the Spanish adjective for ‘brown skinned’, and is closely related to ‘marron’ which is the Spanish word for brown. In Spanish cultures it is quite common to address someone whom you do not know by some physical characteristic. “Hey, brownie, fatty, blondie, skinny–does the bus to Santiago depart from this gate?”

    Rita Brown

    https://people.com/movies/rita-moreno-really-resented-darkening-her-skin-west-side-story/

  161. istevefan says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    That clip is quite over the top and probably had more to do with the writer’s mental state than reality.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  162. Lot says:
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    “She looked more formidable than she did beautiful.”

    Mark Antony was certainly smitten with her. He was also bisexual (and according to Cicero, a catcher) so maybe he liked a masculine looking woman.

    She looked quite ugly in their joint coin:

    Below average but not ugly in this one:

    Above average in this Roman statue made during her visit to Rome:

    The noseless Cleo also looks OK but in the coins her nose is her worst feature.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  163. I’m glad someone finally had the courage to call out Black Knight for being racist.

  164. @Lot

    Need to add: Take up gardening, and learn how to preserve food, and save seeds. Also, a Colt AR, some training, and a dozen of your favorite magazines for it. Check out some of the Made In America websites, they’re a source for new clothes, tools and other things you need.

  165. istevefan says:

    In Kansas City, and I suppose around the nation, we have a large Renaissance Festival. I wonder how long it will be before this too becomes corrupted and totally devoid of its original purpose.

  166. Bill P says:
    @Jack D

    Well, that’s one reason Al-Andalus would naturally have black slaves — because it had a huge slave market that was part of an intercontinental trade. Did Egyptians content themselves with only the Nubian slaves to which they had easy access? Far from it. They bought large numbers of Europeans as well.

    The reason there isn’t more black ancestry in Iberians is that the blacks were deported along with their Moorish owners after the Reconquista. Medieval skeletons from parts of Iberia are more likely to have sub-Saharan ancestry than today’s (or at least the 1970s’) indigenous inhabitants in those same places.

    Furthermore, the trans-Atlantic slave trade didn’t emerge out of thin air. The Portuguese took over a lot of existing Arab/Muslim slave markets, which is why you find a lot of East African ancestry in Brazil. They were already familiar with the trans-Saharan slave trade in the middle of the 15th century.

  167. Travis says:
    @Whiskey

    Baseball and football stadiums will be empty if they banned most of the white people who attend games.

  168. Jack D says:
    @Corvinus

    Only problem is your flipped script bears no resemblance to reality. It’s like flipping the script where white teens play the knockout game on old black people – does not exist in our universe.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  169. @Hapalong Cassidy

    While they were conquering a surprising number of them were Nestorian Christians all the way to the highest ranks.

  170. Lot says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Great scene from a great movie.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  171. @Paleo Liberal

    There was probably more East Asian intermingling in Scandinavia/Eastern Europe than there was SSA intermingling in Mediterranean Europe (it actually shows up a little in DNA tests and what haplogroups are common there) I’m sure there is a little admixture from the Middle East in Southern Europe though.

    People in Mediterranean Europe are darker because it is sunny and warm and being able to tan is beneficial in that kind of environment. Hell, white American southerners (mostly British) and white Australians (also mostly British descent) are way swarthier than native Brits. Especially eyes and skin, though there probably isn’t a big difference in hair. White southerners look like Northern Italians or Central Europeans in coloring, not the Northern Euros they are. That’s what many generations of selective pressure for warm weather will do to a population’s appearance.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  172. @Lot

    That bust looks like the Polish model Mika Wlo. If Cleopatra looked like that, one could understand the appeal.

    • Replies: @Lot
  173. Lot says:
    @songbird

    In the old days Moor could mean a white-looking Moroccan or completely black African, so blackamoor was probably invented to describe blacks specifically.

    Negro is the Spanish word for the color black, Queen E’s use of the term was the first time I saw it used that far back in English to refer to a person. Surprised me actually since Spanish loan words in English seem to mostly have entered the language after 1700 and via Latin America to North America to England.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  174. @Lot

    True, true.

    However, I prefer this scene, which Gary Oldman considers his greatest film performance:

    “Is it white boy day?”

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  175. @Lot

    Always easier to sweet talk someone in their own language.

    • Replies: @Lot
  176. Lot says:
    @Desiderius

    Wow, bust and hips that big on a waist that small are magic. Add in big eyes and long dense hair…

    How did you ever hear if her though? she seems pretty obscure, only 178 instagram followers.

  177. @Abe

    I was on the jury of one of Sassanian King Shapur I’s Los Angeles car-dealing descendants who was on trial for his firm stealing half the sales tax they collected from Mexicans.

  178. @Jack D

    There’s also the sense they have that they’re fighting against an evil so elemental that it’s no holds barred, so perversely the more overt their bullshit the more it shows how woke they are to who they’re really dealing with and how dedicated they are to the cause.

  179. @Mr. Anon

    Rubbish.

    Everybody knows that England would never be on the brink of Brexit, if it wasn’t for the strong historical presence of EUbonic Alahites.

    Everybody knows that Morgan Freeman was jihad-hooding King John’s evil dominium, many, many centuries before Robert of Loxley tanked his tights in Waterworld.

    Everybody knows, that’s how it goes.

  180. @Lot

    Not at all. My understanding is that all Phillip got was sweet talk until he finally lost patience and dispatched the Armada to more colorfully express his displeasure.

  181. Lot says:
    @Abe

    I’ll take your word for it but I picture Herc with sandals and a sword.

    The Dutch cavemen look like they might have eyes for each other.

    • Replies: @Abe
  182. Saxon says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    The problem is that there is no genetic evidence for this. When you see this kind of propaganda like the BBC cartoon about “the typical family in Roman Britain” and it’s a mulatto family, well where did they all go? Why aren’t their modern descendants all mulattoes? Why are NONE of their descendants except those who have foolishly mixed with recent newcomers mulattoes?

  183. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:

    It went from Attacking Western Civ to Appropriating it.

  184. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jack D

    The filmed “past” is always a work of imagination anyway and has more to do with the present day than the actual past. Is making say Moses or Cleopatra black any less inaccurate than making them blue eyed Northern Europeans?

    If you believe Hollywood then both the ancient world and medieval worlds were full of Americans.

    If you’ve seen The Black Shield of Falworth with Tony Curtis you know that at least some medieval knights were in fact Jewish kids from The Bronx.

  185. Abe says:
    @Lot

    I’ll take your word for it but I picture Herc with sandals and a sword.

    The loincloth made from the skin of the Nemean Lion gives it away.

  186. @Lot

    Mika appears to be a slightly purer, slightly more innocent version of Emily Ratajkowski.

    According to the international pickup set, gals like this are not hard to find in Poland.

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
  187. @Lot

    European crests also sometimes featured silly white cavemen, called “wild man.” Here is Prince Phillip’s(…)

    Prince Philip’s crest does not depict a wild man. The crest is what is centered above the shield, helm, and torse or crest-coronet. The blason reads “for a crest, upon a coronet of a son of the sovereign Proper, the royal helm Or, upon which issuant from a ducal coronet Or, a plume of five ostrich feathers alternately Sable and Argent.”

    The wild man is one of the supporters of the coat-of-arms. It reflects Philip’s Danish paternal line (before he was created Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, and Baron Greenwich, he was a Prince of Greece and Denmark). The Royal Arms of Denmark has two wild men as supporters. They also feature in some Scottish bearings (e.g., Hay, Earls of Errol), and you note a Dutch example. They are seen mainly in arms from countries surrounding the North Sea, and very rarely elsewhere.

  188. What medieval dagoes imagined a Jewess from the middle east might look like:

  189. @jim jones

    I always found it easier to talk with Dutch than Englishmen. Some of the English dialects and accents are difficult.

  190. @S. Anonyia

    The Mongol hordes made sure there is East Asian blood in Eastern Europe.

    I have no idea how much SSA blood there is in the areas raided by men who were mostly white, but with some SSA blood.

    But it explains where they went.

    The halfbreed Mongols left by the hordes intermingled with white folks, and now their descendants are mostly white.

    I am descended from great Cherokee chiefs, and I am a tribal member, but anyone who looks at me sees me as white. Same with many other people I know of Native American descent.

    With enough dilution, everyone seems to be the same race. At some point in the future, if the human race survives, most humans will be some sort of mix. Maybe a few groups that won’t intermarry at all, like Amish or Druze will be the exception.

  191. J.Ross says: • Website
    @istevefan

    Everything Tarentino has ever had to say goes back to hating his father. Blacks come in because of their hypermasculinity (replacing the missing father) and capacity to outrage (insulting dad, wherever he is). This scene is actually touching because, unusually for Tarentino, the father is good; he is nobly sacrificing himself to enable his son to escape. That’s why he’s going out of his way to be insulting.

  192. @Hapalong Cassidy

    You don’t say…

    Our land is the home of … wild men — men with horns, one-eyed men, men with eyes before and behind, centaurs, fauns, satyrs, pygmies, forty-ell high giants, cyclopses, and similar women. It is the home, too, of the phoenix and of nearly all living animals.

  193. @Lot

    She resembles my wife.

    • Replies: @Lot
  194. Lot says:
    @Desiderius

    Well please forgive my prior ogling of the woman who looks like your wife!

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  195. @Alden

    So you believe the public school history you were taught? Was the chapter on Egyptians littered with black Pharaohs and Queens?

    Careful.”Public school” means something quite different in Mr Mason’s realm.

    • Replies: @Alden
  196. Of course, the actual number of sub-Saharans in medieval Western Europe before the Age of Exploration must have been miniscule.

    Minuscule.

    It’s a medieval word itself, based on minus, and the counterpart of majuscule.

    https://www.britannica.com/art/Carolingian-minuscule
    https://www.omniglot.com/writing/carolingian.htm


  197. Alden says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    About Queen Charlotte, the word is speculation. I think the one and only Portuguese ancestor was about 400 years before Charlotte was born.

    And there’s no proof whatsoever that any Portuguese royals ever married a Moor.

    It’s about as realistic as Nefertiti, cleopatra and the Black Prince were black. Edward of Woodstock was known as the Black Prince because he favored black horses clothes and even armor.

    But liberal historians claim all those people were black. I’ve even seen a scholarly article claiming that the Muslims who ruled parts of Spain for 800 years were black African negroes.
    Or Mary Tudor the Queen was part black because her mother was Spanish and therefore mostly black.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  198. Alden says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Public, state, high school comprehensive private they’re all the same, anti White indoctrination centers

  199. Alfa158 says:
    @Prester John

    Hakeem Oluseyi. In one of the segments he demonstrated a point of orbital mechanics by shooting hoops. I hope he came up with idea himself and it did not originate from the producers having a cruel bit of fun trolling him.

  200. Alden says:
    @Corvinus

    Wheeled carts that didn’t use draft animals but humans were used extensively in Europe and Asia. In China, sometimes people were hitched up like horses to pull vehicles.

    They’re very useful. If well balanced one man can push or pull a cart with a 400 pd load. They’re also more suited to cities and towns. No manure, no animal feed stabling vet care no mules horses ornery in the crowded streets.

    A major necessity in even small carts is proper axles. Wheels aren’t all that useful without well functioning axles. The Europeans had proper axles which made the wheels so highly functional

    Then there’s medieval European dumb waiter elevator type things. Ropes, gears pulleys a platform and one person on the rope can haul big loads up 4 floors all day.

    The no draft animals as the reason for no wheeled vehicles is ridiculous as are most of Jared Diamond’s ramblings

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  201. Dtbb says:

    I remember reading a book years ago that said the Ethiopians went to Avignon to warn the Pope that the Knights Templar were searching for the Ark of the Covenant, and that is why he crushed them.

  202. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    A Beatle, a Blondie and a car radiator too.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  203. Saxon says:
    @Corvinus

    Jared Diamond’s book is a series of just-so stories with no citations, no data, no research.

    His central thesis of crops and domesticable animals doesn’t even check out. There are plenty of crops in these regions that could have been selectively bred, and most of them taken north/south just fine. Animals such as Bison or horse equivalents like Zebra, or draft animals like llamas that could have been tamed and selectively bred and indeed HAVE been tamed by Europeans that later came but never selectively bred that’s a time investment people aren’t willing to put in when they can just import the animals we’ve been working on for much longer. But it never happened with other peoples. You’re so basic bitch with your shitty posts. It’s all so tiresome.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @Corn
  204. Pericles says:
    @Mr. Grey

    rejection of one’s own history

    Indeed, what are Dorothy Kim and Donna Zuckerberg thinking?

  205. @Lot

    Mostly Greek, sure. Purely, I doubt it. 300 years is a long time to stick with one extended family. Some of those brother-sister and “double uncle” inbred marriages might have resulted in a string of stillbirths and early deaths, with the queen later resorting to a secret outside sire whose children turned out healthier.

    The secret outside sire would also come from her social circles, which were exclusively Greek/Macedonian, too. Egypt was ruled by a Greek elite for centuries, to the point of natives not being allowed into the military as ordinary soldiers. I doubt a Greek/Macedonian queen would have slept with an Egyptian servant, women’s hypergamic instincts would have likely prevented it. Besides, a brown-skinned child would have been noticed, too.

    • Replies: @Anon
  206. @Mr. Blank

    “if we find evidence that a sub-Saharan African man had somehow ended up in 13th century France (again, there must have been at least one or two)”

    Unlikely at that date, the only SSAs would have been slaves in Islamic societies (and the males were castrated). It wasn’t until the 1440s that the Portuguese started sailing the West African coast – by 1445 they had a slave trading post off Mauretania at Arguin.

    But “progress” was rapid – only 110 years later a chap called John Lok, relation of the philosopher, was bringing five Ghanaians to England. “Lok’s ships also brought home five Africans from present-day Ghana to learn English and act as interpreters on future trading voyages to Guinea.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lok

  207. Corvinus says:
    @Alden

    “Wheeled carts that didn’t use draft animals but humans were used extensively in Europe and Asia. In China, sometimes people were hitched up like horses to pull vehicles.”

    Used extensively is the operative term here. The environment highly encouraged those peoples, who borrowed that idea from ancient civilizations, to employ them on a large-scale.

    “The no draft animals as the reason for no wheeled vehicles is ridiculous as are most of Jared Diamond’s ramblings.”

    So, basically, you don’t like his argument for personal reasons. I NOTICE you neglect to address specifically the major points I offered. Typical.

  208. Corvinus says:
    @Saxon

    “Jared Diamond’s book is a series of just-so stories with no citations, no data, no research.”

    That’s a bold claim. Care to elaborate?

    His central thesis of crops and domesticable animals doesn’t even check out.

    “There are plenty of crops in these regions that could have been selectively bred, and most of them taken north/south just fine.”

    Diamond covers these points.

    “Animals such as Bison or horse equivalents like Zebra, or draft animals like llamas that could have been tamed and selectively bred and indeed HAVE been tamed by Europeans…”

    Really? Bison, zebra, and llamas tamed by Europeans? What are your sources to counter the argument here, for example, for zebras?

    https://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/zebra.html

    “that later came but never selectively bred that’s a time investment people aren’t willing to put in when they can just import the animals we’ve been working on for much longer.”

    Unless, as Diamond notes, there is little need on the part of the people to engage in such action.

    “You’re so basic bitch with your shitty posts. It’s all so tiresome.”

    All your lies are belong to us.

  209. Corvinus says:
    @Jack D

    You’ve created a little safe space world for yourself. But you can’t really live in that cocoon all your life. Then again, maybe you will…

  210. Corn says:
    @Lot

    Talk about smooth skin. She almost looks like a mannequin.

  211. Jack D says:
    @Corvinus

    Right, the reason the Plains Indians didn’t have wheeled vehicles was that there were mountains in Colorado. As a matter of fact, to this day, no wheeled vehicles are in use anywhere in N. America because they are just not practical for our terrain.

    There are large stretches of the US where the terrain is treeless plains or deserts without rivers. If you want to get around in these places (and carry a significant amount of cargo), wheeled vehicles are the only practical means and the terrain lends itself to their use. It’s true that America lacked horses but, for example the buffalo could have been domesticated the way that the water buffalo was elsewhere. In fact, white people did get American buffalo (bison) to pull carts:

    The real answer is that the American Indians were a primitive stone age hunter gatherer people and they never reached the level of having domesticated animals or wheeled vehicles that had been achieved in Mesopotamia 5,000+ years ago.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  212. Corn says:
    @Saxon

    “Jared Diamond’s book is a series of just-so stories with no citations, no data, no research.”

    I read Guns, Germs and Steel years ago. He briefly mentions that culture can affect development, comparing the reaction of two tribes of Papuans to seeing a helicopter, but within a paragraph it seems he’s right back to his thesis of environment, environment, environment.

    In another part of the book he actually adopts this “golly gee, humans were used to horses, why would humans want to invent cars?” attitude. Maybe because they wanted to travel faster? Wanted transportation that didn’t need to sleep?

    GGS was interesting, but Diamond has blind spots you can drive a Mack truck through.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
  213. Jack D says:
    @Lot

    She’s a beautiful girl, but I can guarantee that that photo doesn’t really represent reality. In your photo, her skin appears impossibly smooth and free of all blemishes. I am also guessing that they cut in her waistline and made her arms skinnier – it really looks like a heavily retouched photo. Her right arm looks particularly unnatural. Most magazine ads and star publicity photos that you see have been heavily Photoshopped to make them look better looking / skinnier than they really are but if you look closely you can see the evidence of the photoshopping.

  214. Jack D says:
    @Alden

    What this reminds me of the most is Soviet propaganda. If you recall, the Soviets used to claim (actually it was exaggerated into a joke in the West – the reality wasn’t quite that bad) that the Russians had invented EVERYTHING. Nowadays, the claim is that EVERYONE in the past was black. It all has to do with bending reality to fit ideology. If history conflicts with doctrine, you have to change the history, not the doctrine. Orwell understood.

  215. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    At last the mask officially comes off!

  216. Corvinus says:
    @Jack D

    “Right, the reason the Plains Indians didn’t have wheeled vehicles was that there were mountains in Colorado.”

    No, the reason is that the Plains Indians had been semi-sedentary until the introduction of horses, which enabled them to follow the buffalo herd more effectively. That is, until whitey showed up with their iron horses and shot dead tens of millions of buffalo. Is that situation not an “invasion”, akin to the ones you are claiming which are afflicting the U.S.? Or do you just pick and choose which situations fit your narrative?

    “It’s true that America lacked horses but, for example the buffalo could have been domesticated the way that the water buffalo was elsewhere.”

    Not quite, see below.

    “In fact, white people did get American buffalo (bison) to pull carts…”

    Was this animal born and raised on their farm? In other words, it could be tamed. Of course, you are taking one instance here and assuming that it can be done over a long period of time.

    Domestication, as opposed to taming, requires a short list of unimpressive traits. In addition to living in herds, the animals must breed in captivity. Buffalo are not innately submissive, nor are they innately submissive towards dominant members of their own species. They are skittish, unpredictable, and potentially aggressive in the presence of humans.

    Furthermore, their submissiveness must be transferable to human handlers. Remember, domestication is not an entirely top-down process driven by humans — the species must be biologically prepared for it. Camels can be domesticated, but not their cousin the vicuna. Reindeer, out of dozens of deer species, have been domesticated.

    From what I gather, nearly nearly all animals that have been domesticated produce low levels of cortisol (a stress hormone) in comparison to their ancestors, Basically, domestication involves selecting a species that has a genetic mutation for low production of this hormone.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  217. “Of course, the actual number of SUB-Saharans in medieval Western Europe before the Age of Exploration must have been minuscule. Here’s a challenge for all the woke medievalists: designate medieval graveyards in Western Europe, such as next to pilgrimage sites, where you think the odds are highest that high tech graverobber geneticists like David Reich might find one medieval sub-Saharan.

    Let’s find one.”

    Let’s up the ante and make it explicitly clear: Graves would tend to suggest that communities, and not just a single outlier, happened to live within a community.

    Show an example of SUB-Saharan (and “Nubians”; “Ethiopians”) having formed an entire community and lived in England, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Iceland, Poland, Baltic States, during the Middle Ages/Renaissance (pre 1603; and before ca.1650/1660). During the age of serfdom in Europe, a typical village community, show us an example of dozens of Africans in say, the Orkney Islands in Northern Scotland, or Copenhagen, 1300’s. Since everyone’s history today knows these “obvious” facts, courtesy of that Korean Medievalist (an oxymoron if ever there was, as Koreans did not reside in Middle Ages/Renaissance Europe), then it should be as easy as observing sunrises and sunsets that these alleged “facts of history” did occur.

    And remember: it wasn’t til the 7th and 8th centuries that Islam came into direct contact with Western African areas (and in turn took their lands and captured them as slaves). As there is something called the Saharan desert of about 3,000 MILES to cross, on foot, and camels.

    Question to Steve and anyone else out there: What is to account for this doubling down against basic historical facts that weren’t questioned for centuries by official academia? Punching up wouldn’t seem to provide the full explanation. Historians like to believe that they are dealing with facts. When Afro-centrist crackpots made these similar claims regarding Middle Ages European history, they were widely ignored or dismissed without comment. Why now in 2010’s are these once considered crackpot ideas now given credence? And, with no direct factual evidence given to overturn the established consensus of several centuries? Why now, and what’s the real agenda behind this….this…asinine idiocy?

    Honestly now. Its tantamount to saying that longtime residents of a neighborhood (nation, geographic area, towns, etc) were utterly mistaken as to the demographic makeup of their own neighborhoods. Something that was carefully written down for centuries, as well as archeologically recorded (e.g. graveyards, DNA in the skeletons would bear out the written records regarding the residents of the neighborhoods, etc).

    Notice, you don’t see the reverse. No one tries to say “Well, you know, the ancient peoples of what’s now Uganda and Chad were actually all white peoples! Yeah, sure they were. Everyone knows this, it’s just a vast conspiracy by Afrocentrists to hide the truth from everyone!” You don’t see that. Neither do you see “Well, the real founders of the ancient Xian, Han, and of course the Sui dynasties were all black. Everyone knows this, it’s just the mean racists of East Asia that’s conspiring to hide the truth!”

    Suppose the tables are turned on this Korean Dorothy what’s her name Medievalist, a la “Well, ancient Korea was founded by black people. This was well known and if you don’t believe it, you’re automatically a racist.” See what she says to that. Of course, she might believe it, as she’d rather not appear to be racist.

  218. Anon[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    You must admire the audacity of these people. Shriek about ‘cultural appropriation’ when Whites adopt the fashions and customs of other races, while quietly pushing whites out of their own culture.

  219. Hail says: • Website
    @John Derbyshire

    Great food for thought.

    Some proposed alternate (symbolic) dates:

    Surely the Roman Empire was effectively over by (or, because of) the Conversion of Constantine (312), and something new had emerged (or “was emerging,” if you prefer). I would say Augustine (354-430) was not a (true) Roman, but a post-Roman Christian.

    Some scholars hold that the spread of Islam in the 600s to 700s , by disrupting world trade patterns and cutting off west-east links, overturned the then-existing order and caused “Europe,” as we now think of it, to be born — and thus begins our medieval period. Dating the unfortunate spread of Islam to a single year (for purposes of the aforementioned order-overturning, vis-a-vis Europe) may not necessarily be possible; the fall of Jerusalem is April 637 (five years after the death of the false prophet), might do. (Alexandria fell in Sept. 642.)

    As for 29 May 1453, while definitely a good symbolic bookend for these purposes, might I suggest, on a more optimistic note, the very next year, 1454, when Herr Gutenberg printed his first Bible?

    A proposed amended European history era dating, then:
    – by ca. early 300s: The Roman period ends (defacto, if not dejure);
    – early 300s to ca. mid 600s: Transition period; Christianization and the rise of the Germanic ‘Barbarians,’ in earnest, to true continental-scope power (the centuries-long fusion of the two being “Europe,” according to a famous argument);
    – April 637 to (ca. summer-autumn) 1454: The “Medieval Period” in Europe

    The midpoint of the period “Fall of Jerusalem to a Muslim army (637) to the first Gutenberg Bible printing (ca. summer-autumn 1454)” would about Christmas 1045.

    What was the scene like in late 1045? A 17-year-old William the Bastard (title later upgraded to ‘Conqueror’) could be seen hanging around with various sorts of noble thugs in Normandy; further north, in Norway, a few old-timer Vikings spoke of the good old days of western adventure and glory, but most accepted the new Christian order, even though it was only a few decades old at most.

  220. @J.Ross

    True, but for me Oldman’s talent as an actor is confirmed by his convincing portrayal of the utterly square James Gordon in Nolan’s Batman trilogy:

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  221. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    My friend Nigel Harrison, who bought me dinner in LA once, and who was kicked out of the band for loyalty to Freaky Frank Infante. A very underrated bass player and fairly decent songwriter who never really got his groove back after the defenestration.

    Wouldn’t say he was as great as Beatle George, but at least he never kissed the maharishi’s ass either, and a stand up guy who paid the price and never truckled.

  222. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    In Europe they have bred circus lions in captivity for at least fifty (lion) generations, though the modern elimination of animal acts has resulted in the line pretty well being gone as well. One could say they were domesticated, being selected to look fierce but be handleable. The lions one sees in private ownership in the US-there’s a lot of them, especially in Texas-are not these but usually were derived from cubs brought in in the sixties or seventies from US zoo populations or smuggled in from the bush.

    What amazes me with all the lions and tigers in the US is that someone only gets mauled or killed once every few years or so. These are immense apex predators and considering their sheer physical power, the fact that the average bozo that gets one doesn’t get chomped and the cat dies of old age more often than not says a lot.

    I’ve handled full grown lions, cougars and cheetahs but never a tiger or a leopard. Leopards scare me a little. A lion or tiger will kill you or he won’t, but a leopard can really mess you up even if he doesn’t kill you. You could be a waffled mess of keloid scars when you get out of hospital. The Russians had a lot of balls to let Putin get in there with one that time.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  223. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    If you’ve seen The Black Shield of Falworth with Tony Curtis you know that at least some medieval knights were in fact Jewish kids from The Bronx.

    The film is famous for an apocryphal line, rendered as “Yonda stands da castle of my fodda” or similar. The plot details above show that this would not fit the story: there is no “castle of my father”. The line is said to have come from a remark made by Debbie Reynolds on television.[1]

    This chestnut used to be quoted in Radio Times whenever the film was on BBC television, and found its way into a 2007 study of Tony Curtis’s work by Clive James. Curtis has denied ever saying that line, but he did actually say a similar line in the movie Son of Ali Baba, released in 1952 (and one of two “Arabian Nights” style fantasies he did with Piper Laurie) , that reads, “This is the palace of my father, and yonder lies the Valley of the Sun”, and he did deliver it in a markedly New York accent.[2]

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  224. @Pseudodositheus

    “Interestingly I never see any articles about the presence of Europeans in Medieval Africa – do the progressives who push this stuff believe that the traffic was only one way or are they afraid that saying that Europeans visiting Africa would justify colonialism?”

    Maybe they’re afraid of saying that Europeans got eaten who went into Africa without guns.

  225. Corvinus says:
    @Anonymous

    “In Europe they have bred circus lions in captivity for at least fifty (lion) generations, though the modern elimination of animal acts has resulted in the line pretty well being gone as well.”

    For 50 generations? What is your source?

    “One could say they were domesticated, being selected to look fierce but be handleable.”

    No, they were tamed.

    https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/why-exotic-animals-can-never-really-be-pets/

    “The lions one sees in private ownership in the US-there’s a lot of them, especially in Texas-are not these but usually were derived from cubs brought in in the sixties or seventies from US zoo populations or smuggled in from the bush.”

    How many is “a lot of them”?

    “What amazes me with all the lions and tigers in the US is that someone only gets mauled or killed once every few years or so.”

    How many lions and tigers are estimated to be in the U.S.? Moreover, what are the circumstances involved in these maulings? You say these animals tend to die of old age in captivity–what is that age?

    I do appreciate the red herring, however. Now, what say you about the domestication of zebras and buffalo?

  226. @Corn

    He apparently stopped defending the GGS thesis in public forums after people started pointing out that environmental potency would obviously provoke a genetic response.

  227. @prime noticer

    the battle over which exact person sets foot on mars first will be one of the biggest battles in the history of mankind.

    As if we still had the civilizational capacity for extra-orbital travel …

  228. Saxon says:

    Germans were using Zebras in Africa around the time of WW1 in place of horses, due to a shortage of their own horses and logistics to ship them. They’re harder to tame and not as good as horses. However, our modern horses are descended from species like the now-extinct Tarpan whose ancestors were similar to Zebras once upon a time. They were selectively bred. Yet the Africans were never able to do what Germans could do in a short few years with Zebras.

    Lots of animals are like this. The Auroch of Europe was the most likely ancestor of modern cows. It was much larger and the males were very aggressive animals according to historical sources, and is now extinct.

    Russians created domesticated versions of foxes. It took them 11 generations to get to a point where a significant percentage (>10%) were friendly to humans in the same way that domesticated cats and dogs are. A couple dozen more generations on and nearly half of the foxes were like that. They could almost certainly continue and create a completely domesticated breed of fox, though almost no one would want one. It was an exercise that proved that these very skittish animals that were completely unfriendly to humans in the wild could in fact be domesticated.

    No one else did these things, though. Why is that?

    The worst part of Diamond’s book is his claim that the Papuans are somehow superior to everyone else but especially us by using this idea that if you just dropped us into their environment with nothing they’d probably do better. This is of course dishonestly contrasted with multigenerational living with foreign groups who are still out competed by us in a civilizational environment.

  229. J.Ross says: • Website
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    I’m told enjoying TTSS is a kind of intelligence test (I liked it, my dad demanded to know what had happened).
    I dig Oldman so much I sought out every appearance. This led me to Nobody’s Baby, which is a kind of proof of how skilled the Coen two-body problem really is, becaise it’s a shameless ripoff of Raising Arizona executed by illiterates. Oldman appears for five (5) seconds. I made it to an interminable dialogue about whether women with breast implants can express milk, admitted defeat, and brought out the trusty and glorious Sword of the Beast.

  230. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Do Brits like the New York accent, or hate it, or like hating it? A while back BBC Radio did a radio play about David Bowie’s last days and the producer character did a similar accent that was just off enough that it stuck a bit in the ear. But he was clearly meant to be likeable.

  231. J.Ross says: • Website
    @prime noticer

    The first episode of the new Les Miserables is pretty good except for the “everyone was always black” nonsense, which is so clumsily done that it’s self-parodic. They could have gotten away with an occasional high yeller whore (although a Canuck would have been better in every way, if also impossible). But they’re conquerors, they’re not worried about getting away with anything. The tone of every African imposition is always one of demonstrating superiority over frail white people, often cartoonishly. As a result the viewer is constantly jerked between sensitive and competent white thespians in high soap opera and a Fifty Cent video.
    Also (want to be wrong about this) the South of France is one of the world’s beauty spots but not when it’s almost all obviously computer generated.
    Typical of illiterate SJWs, they’re not doing an original production about Haiti or Old New Orleans, or something like Anne Rice’s Feast of All Saints. They’re not interested in an actual historical society with respectable blacks, they’re interested in destroying history.

  232. dfordoom says: • Website
    @prime noticer

    the battle over which exact person sets foot on mars first will be one of the biggest battles in the history of mankind.

    If the Americans get to Mars first it will be a trans Woman of Color.

    That is of course assuming that a spacecraft with a diverse inclusive crew actually reaches Mars without self-destructing.

  233. Anon[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    We did this work on another thread; Cleopatra is about 2/3 Macedonian and 1/3 Persian assuming legitimate descent.

    There were also presumably light-skinned Egyptians, though their contribution to the gene pool is not a necessary hypothesis.

  234. Miro23 says:
    @Dieter Kief

    Agreed, that the “Moros y Cristianos” festivals in Spain have become a social and tourist event. They no longer commemorate the Christian Spanish reconquest of Moorish Spain.

    Present day Moors easily enter Spain an get Spanish nationality – which they are doing in large numbers.

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