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NFL QB Sam Bradford when he was at Putnam City HS in Oklahoma City, along with his parents. Bradford is 1/16th Cherokee and his father, who also played football for the U. of Oklahoma, is 1/8th Cherokee.

There seems to be a lot of confusion over just how American Indian Senator Elizabeth Warren is compared to other white Americans.

Much of this seems to be that few Americans, other than genealogy enthusiasts, can do power of two arithmetic or take reciprocals in their heads. Heck, I screwed up my first tweet on Monday, announcing that Prof. Bustamante’s finding of one unadmixed Native American ancestor within a probability range of 6 to 10 generations ago, most likely 8 generations ago, meant she was most likely 1/256th Indian (which I got right), or 0.2% (which is wrong, it’s 0.4%).

Carl Zimmer of the New York Times is adamant that Senator Warren might have additional Amerindian ancestry that, through her bad luck, has been genetically lost. It’s important to keep in mind that the genetic reshuffling that happens at conception is not exquisitely random, it’s more like a child’s lumpy attempt at shuffling decks of cards.

For example, it’s likely that millions of Americans are descendants of King Edward I of England (1239-1307). On the other hand, most of his current descendents have zero DNA segments that directly descend from this king, so a DNA test would not prove they were descended from him if his bones were dug up and sequenced. On the other hand, a few of his descendants probably do have segments of his DNA.

So Zimmer’s point is true, but it’s also true that Senator Warren’s Amerindian ancestry might appear exaggerated in a DNA study through luck. That’s why Prof. Bustamante estimated a range of six to ten generations ago, with eight as the most probable.

Somebody tweeted that Warren might be less Indian than the average self-identified white American. If Warren had a single Native American ancestor ten generations ago, that would make her 1/1024 Indian, or 0.1%. A 2013 study by 23andMe of their customers who self-identified as white found they were 0.18% American Indian on average.

On the other hand, Bustamante said Warren appeared to be about 10 times more American Indian than his reference sample of self-identified American whites, who were drawn from Utah (i.e., mostly Mormons).

Utah whites have been used by geneticists going back to the HapMap about 15 years ago as a proxy for Northwestern Europeans. The Mormons tended to be recruited either from white Americans who weren’t frontiersmen or from northwestern Europe.

Screenshot 2018-10-17 02.24.13

George Romney, Self Portrait

For example, the Romney family arrived in America from England, where Miles Romney, a convert to Mormonism, was a first cousin of the superb English society painter George Romney, who was intensely English-looking.

In contrast, other ethnicities of American whites, such as East Coast ethnics like Martin Scorsese and Donald Trump aren’t very Amerindian at all.

On the other hand, the Scots-Irish might be slightly more likely to have an Amerindian ancestor because they tended more often to be frontiersmen.

For example, I have a brother-in-law who was born in West Virginia and served 20 years at the bottom of the ocean as a nuclear sub powerplant technician. Whether he has any Indian ancestry or not is uncertain (he was orphaned young), but he’s a teetotaler: whether he’s part Indian or all Scots-Irish, he thinks it’s a good idea to avoid liquor.

It’s a complicated question whether there was more stigma or glamor associated with being somewhat American Indian by ancestry in the past. Current Year people tend to assume that the stigma associated with being part black applied to other races, but that’s not at all indisputable. For example, Westerners such as Mark Twain tended to be prejudiced against part-Indians (e.g., compare the villainous half-breed Injun Joe in Tom Sawyer to the lovable slave Jim in Huckleberry Finn), but Easterners such as James Fennimore Cooper tended to be prejudiced in favor of part-Indians.

Over time, as Indians stopped being a threat, opinion shifted in their favor. For example, Herbert Hoover’s vice president Charles Curtis may have been 3/8ths Indian. As a child, he lived on an Indian reservation in Kansas and spoke Kaw before he spoke English. This seems to have added a little glamor to his resume.

Oklahomans, such as Warren, tend to be the most mixed of Old Americans. For example, consider the journeyman NFL quarterback Sam Bradford, who won the 2008 Heisman at the U. of Oklahoma. From the New York Times in 2008:

Sooners’ Bradford Is Accidental Cherokee Hero
By THAYER EVANS OCT. 10, 2008

TAHLEQUAH, Okla. — … Entering Saturday’s Red River Rivalry between No. 1 Oklahoma and No. 5 Texas, Bradford is at the forefront of Heisman Trophy conversations, and at the center of attention in the Cherokee Nation, the second-largest tribe in the United States.

Bradford is believed to be the first Cherokee to start at quarterback for a Division I university since Sonny Sixkiller, a full-blooded Cherokee, who was born here and starred at Washington in the early 1970s.

But Bradford is just one-sixteenth Cherokee and until Oklahoma publicized that heritage last season, his father Kent said he had probably only talked to his son about it two or three times as he grew up in Oklahoma City. Kent Bradford said his great-grandmother, Susie Walkingstick, was a full-blooded Cherokee.

The elder Bradford, who was an offensive lineman at Oklahoma in the 1970s, said: “There’s a lot of people in Oklahoma that have Indian blood. I wasn’t brought up to really know much about it. I can’t really give him a lot of information either.

“At times, it’s somewhat awkward in that he and I are indeed portrayed as Indians,” he said. “We do have some Indian blood, but that isn’t us out there counting that.”

Warren’s home state of Oklahoma, the former Indian Territory that Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer light out for at the end of Twain’s masterpiece, is famous for its high percentage of people who are part white and part Indian. Famous Americans born in Oklahoma include:

Jim Thorpe, the great athlete who is thought of as Indian, but was part white on both of his parents’ sides.

Will Rogers, the radio comedian who might have been the most popular celebrity in America in the early 1930s. He is said to be 9/32 Cherokee.

Maria Tallchief, the most famous American ballerina of the 1950s, whose father was the chief of the oil-rich Osage Indians.

Chuck Norris, martial arts actor, claims to have some kind of Cherokee roots.

Johnny Bench, catcher for the 1970s Reds, is said to be 1/8th Choctaw.

Robert L. Owen, one of the first two Senators from Oklahoma (along with the blind Thomas Gore, Gore Vidal’s beloved grandfather). In 1906 as the lawyer for the Eastern Cherokee, he won a settlement of nearly $5 million from the federal government for Cherokee lands in the east taken in the 1830s. In the Senate, his Glass-Owen bill founded the Federal Reserve. His mother was 1/8th or 1/16th Cherokee, but skillfully emphasized her Indian roots.

Other Oklahomans claiming Indian descent include evangelist Oral Roberts. American Indians who ended up in the Oklahoma territory, include Sequoyah, inventor of the Cherokee alphabet, and Stand Watie, the Confederate general. Oklahoma-born celebrities who probably weren’t at all Indian include Mickey Mantle and Woody Guthrie.

I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be.

 
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  1. “There’s a lot of people in Oklahoma that have Indian blood.”

    Never knew a single person from Oklahoma who didn’t claim to have Amerind blood.

    Pretty much a point of honor for them, and to some extent most ‘White’ Americans.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'Pretty much a point of honor for them, and to some extent most ‘White’ Americans.'

    Yeah. My daughter's boyfriend -- who is whiter than white -- used to keep claiming his family was part-Indian.

    She finally got fed up with this and paid for a DNA test. 'You are not part Indian.' I'd guess anyone who has any awareness of their family having spent time on the frontier tends to improve the story. I've certainly seen that with various bits of our family lore.
    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    I come across this a lot as well, which underscores Warren's uber white detachment from a country that still had a lot of ancestral memory of its Anglo-Celt, frontier-capitalist roots when she was growing up.

    Note that the Osage drum-design of the Oklahoma flag was adopted in 1925, in a contest sponsored by the Daughters of the American Revolution! This was around the era when Warren's parents were married; more evidence that she is spinning tales out of whole cloth about Oklahoma's supposed rampant, anti-Indian animus. Oklahoma should be thankful that Warren headed to the NY-NJ-MA Progressivist hub to be among her own kind.
  2. Considering that Warren’s real family roots are Southern, shouldn’t she be cast out of the Party for benefiting from her ancestors blood guilt? After all, isn’t the new face of the Party Harris, Booker, DeLeon, and Ocasio-Cortez?

    It’s always a good strategy to sow division among your enemies.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    yeah, it was those Southerners who sent the Cherokee packing along the Trail of Tears. She should have her little Indian percentage whoop on her big, white, Southern percentage. Maybe have a mole or two removed and consider it a little scalping.
    , @Anon
    Slave owners or not, her family were the evil frontiersmen who landed in America and kept moving west, cutting down trees. Farming, genociding Indians , destroying buffalo and mountain lions and wolves and destroying the wonderful ness of pre Columbian America.

    Contrast those minions of the devil
    with the revolutionary saints who swarmed out of the communist shetls of Russia determined to transform evil White Christian America into a Jewish communist nation run from Wall Street and Los Angeles

    The history of the USA began in 1880 on Ellis Island, not with the Spanish and English settlements in the 1500s.
  3. Current Year people tend to assume that the stigma associated with being part black applied to other races, but that’s not at all indisputable.

    I’d say the large number of people out there who claimed Indian ancestry when they didn’t actually have any strongly suggests that it wasn’t the stigma some people now imagine; indeed, quite the contrary.

  4. “You’re part-Cherokee, my very special child,” is something every Oklahoman is told in the crib. It’s a state that tends to romanticize Native culture. Despite all the Cherokees running around, I can count the number of full-blood Natives I ever met on one hand. One was a Kickapoo. The other a Ho-Chunk from Wisconsin.

    • Replies: @Travis
    I doubt there have been any full blooded American Indians born after the Civil War. Just as they have not found any African-Americans who are >95% African.

    One reason the American Indian Tribes all opposes DNA testing, none of the tribe members who have been tested are more than 40% Native American. None of the Cherokee tested are more than 30% Native American, on average a Cherokee tribe member is genetically about 3% Native American and 99% of Cherokee Males have a European Y chromosome haplogroup. In fact a Cherokee male is more likely to have a European Y Haplogroup than the average White American.
  5. I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be.

    Yeah, that’s my experience. And perhaps you know biographical reasons why not, but I can certainly imagine Micky Mantle’s having been maybe 1/8th Cherokee.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right, I was kind of disappointed that Mickey Mantle, whom I assume that my overseas readers assume is an American folk legend like Paul Bunyan or Jack Armstrong, never claimed to be part Indian.
  6. @slumber_j

    I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be.
     
    Yeah, that's my experience. And perhaps you know biographical reasons why not, but I can certainly imagine Micky Mantle's having been maybe 1/8th Cherokee.

    Right, I was kind of disappointed that Mickey Mantle, whom I assume that my overseas readers assume is an American folk legend like Paul Bunyan or Jack Armstrong, never claimed to be part Indian.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    On the other hand, he did drink himself to death.
  7. Americans in the past–even in Norman Rockwell’s 1950′s!–weren’t so hung up on Indian ancestry as liberals try (mightily) to put over on us….

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose
    That kid is part injun, part Gabby Hayes and part pirate. Cool!
    , @Anonymous
    Or the inherent evil of confederates
    , @Old Palo Altan
    Precisely.

    But note what race is not included.

    Blacks are outside the pale; always have been, and always will be.
    , @Lucas McCrudy
    I remember an old episode of Leave it to Beaver where the Beaver is desperate for it to rain for some reason and remembers how one of his classmates kept claiming that she was part Indian. So he deicides to consult her father, a judge, to see if he can do a rain dance. The girl's father is quite amused by Beaver's request but responds that the only Indian on his family tree was his Great-grandfather (making him 1/8th) and that since he made his money in Oklahoma oil, he didn't care whether it rained or not. So small amounts of Amerindian DNA never carried a stigma in pre late-1960s America, If anything they carried a certain romance for people.
  8. I believe it was in the 70′s I read an article that declared any white people who had European ancestors here over 200 years ago would be certain to have some black ancestry. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Or the 23 and me, Ancestry ads would surely be putting it out there. I’ve had people here since before 1650 and nary a trace. And other branches that were here before 1750.

    As to pioneers. I’ve had ancestors in Missouri since the Spanish were in possession. Again, nada of Amerind DNA. Though that could possibly be because I did not get the smidgen needed to show this. My Oklahoma ancestors weren’t there before about 1895. The current Oklahoma generations hoped to have Amerind backgrounds but none who’ve been tested show any that I know of.

  9. Flight from white is big in Oklahoma where 1/128th can get you a card and all sorts of freebies and yet still vote GOP.

    In 2007 the Cherokees e voted to evict the Freedmens as members thus removing all benefits. The Freemen were descendants of slaves that the Cherokees owned pre Civil war. A judge overturned that election last year and their status has been returned.

    Their casinos are a blight on the state. They have sucked billions from people that can’t afford it.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
    "Their casinos are a blight on the state. They have sucked billions from people that can't afford it."

    Agree, they are a blight on the state. By why should Las Vegas and the state of Nevada have no competition for the money of suckers? We Texans have resisted mightily the construction of casinos in our state, but many complain about all the Texans going to nearby Oklahoma and Louisiana giving their money away and not keeping it in Texas.
  10. I always assumed that Jim Plunkett was mostly Native American from his darker complexion. A Wiki search shows “Mexican” with family from New Mexico and one parent may have had “Native American” blood.

    So I guess they discern if you’re Latino-Native American vs. just pure US-based Tribe Native American. The “Latino-Native American” may be more like a Brazilian continuity thing, versus a “1/1024th” thing for “US-based Tribe Native American.”

    I’d also assume Tony Romo may have Latino-Native American from his father’s “Mexican” side.

    • Replies: @Jake Barnes
    Michael Irvin famously speculated that Romo had a (male) ancestor who had “jumped the fence”, as it were.
    , @Hibernian
    Romo's father is Filipino.
  11. All I know is that according to 23andme I am .5% Native American & no one in our family has ever claimed Indian heritage. My Dad always claimed to be Scottish & my Mom was from England. I don’t know if it’s a statistical blip or if I do actually have an Indian in the family tree, but for Senator Warren to claim this test proves her Indian heritage is risible. She’s a liar and a fraud.

  12. The craziest part about Oklahoma is it’s sheer overrepresentation in the major stars in the world of country music. Even though the music is produced in Nashville, all the big artists seem to be from Oklahoma:

    Garth Brooks
    Toby Keith
    Carrie Underwood
    Blake Shelton
    Reba McEntire
    Brooks & Dunn (Ronnie Dunn)
    Vince Gill
    Joe Diffie

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    It’s all Merle Haggard’s fault.
  13. In Canada, they use a term called “visible minority”. Not sure about the context it’s actually used for in Canada, but it would appear to be synonymous with a “sight test”. And let’s be honest, the sight test is the best indicator of how we react to others based on their race. If someone appears to be a different race then yourself, then you will react to them accordingly, regardless of how they self-identify or what their actual gene mix is. So based on that, Sam Bradford is an Indian. Elizabeth Warren ain’t. End of discussion.

  14. I think Warren took the wrong tack when the whole Indian thing started.

    From Wikipedia: as the fourth child of middle-class parents Pauline (née Reed, 1912–1995) and Donald Jones Herring (1911–1997). Warren has described her family as teetering “on the ragged edge of the middle class” and “kind of hanging on at the edges by our fingernails”.

    So in her position in her youth, I can see why she inflated her resume to meet the expectations of the East Coast elites. But to be honest I give her credit for having the gall to convince a willing audience, the Yale HR department, to suspend disbelief about her precise ancestry.

    Warren likely entered the Ivy league system on an affirmative action basis but it was not based on American Indian, it was based on being a lowish born white from a fly over state. Either to achieve diversity or if you are a conspiracy theorist to co-opt Oklahoma leadership from local Oklahoma institutions she was likely given an admissions advantage.

    In summation, I 100% support her misrepresentation, but not a fabrication, of her ancestry, which was always understood to be unknowable to her. You go girl!!!! Warren 2020, Now more than ever.

  15. I’m no expert, but I’ve been dabbling in genetics, documenting my genealogy. I know enough to see the BS being thrown about by both sides. The “average” white American has no Native American blood at all. There probably are more part blacks running around than part Indians. Almost all American blacks are part white.

    The Scotch-Irish were probably a little more inclined, early on, to take an Indian wife, as they lived on the frontier and women were scarce, but they were just one of several ethnicities living in the frontier.

    The mass immigration of Germans and potato Irish came AFTER most Indians were resettled out West, and at least half of white Americans descend from those people.

    I read a report that claimed 12% of Southern whites had some African DNA, in the range of 3% or less. There were a LOT more blacks in the South than there were Natives, so I wouldn’t expect more miscegenation with Natives than with blacks.

    But none of this changes the fact that the amount of Native DNA Warren might have is anywhere near enough to back up her earlier claims. I am more Asian than she is Native American. I don’t run around sharing my Asian recipes, and talking about my Asian heritiage. I didn’t even know about it before I took a DNA test.

    Another rub is that some databases confuse East Asian DNA with Native American DNA. I know I can run my through some tests on GedMatch that look for Native American DNA, and it shows the Asian part to be NA. All the other tests show East Asian.

  16. The truth is that white men stole everything and are FINALLY being talked about being brought to justice. That is what all this anxiety is about

    Warrens ancestry is a moot point. I don’t think she will beat Kamala Harris. Trump is not long for this world and will be impeached after the Blue Wave midterms

    • LOL: Sarah Toga
    • Replies: @Haxo Angmark
    you shouldn't LOL at TinyDuck, SarahToga...it often has profound insights:

    it's true that Pocahontas has no real political future; and the dems 2020 nominee will probably be Kamala Harris, who is a Hindoo.

    and Trump, impeached or not, will probably have to withdraw from the 2020 set-up due to health reasons; to be replaced by Nikki Haley....

    leading to an all-Hindoo Prez race
  17. Jessica Alba was on the George Lopez show a few years ago. When presented with the results of her DNA test that showed she was only 13 percent Amerind (and 87 percent European) she looked like she was going to cry. This was after Lopez said Larry David’s test showed he was over 30 percent Amerind.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    So if we aggregated the entire population of the US into the form of one person, Jessica Alba would be whiter than that.
    , @Jack D

    This was after Lopez said Larry David’s test showed he was over 30 percent Amerind.
     
    Larry David is not 30% Amerind, he is 0% Amerind. If it was possible to be less than 0% Amerind, he would be that too.
  18. Chief Wahoo McDaniel, while not born in Oklahoma, is a Sooner Football legend and still holds the record for longest punt, 91 yards.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    He must have had a huge tailwind. ♪♫♬ ♪♫♬ Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plain!" ♪♫♬
  19. The federal reserve, eh?

    I’d be willing to bet a lot that the Glass-Owen Bill had a heckuva lot more Glass than Owen in its DNA.

    • LOL: donut
  20. A 2013 study by 23andMe of their customers who self-identified as white found they were 0.18% American Indian on average.

    And also that only 2% to 4% of “white” people had any measurable Amerindian DNA, so that 0.18% doesn’t represent the average or median person.

  21. That’s an incredible list of people from Oklahoma. I never knew. Really impressive.

  22. Nobody has asked her how many samples she gave, and how many times the results were analyzed. Maybe this is her third try, but the first time anything other than white showed up.

  23. anon[414] • Disclaimer says:

    Current Year people tend to assume that the stigma associated with being part black applied to other races, but that’s not at all indisputable.

    Of course people are proud of their Indian blood. The world isn’t divided into People of Color vs. Whites. The world is divided into People Who Aren’t Black vs. Blacks.
    Look at Hawaii – they are multi-racial with almost no blacks and reasonably free of racial conflict.
    Never let someone use the phrase People of Color without challenging it. The category that counts is People Who Aren’t Black.

    • Replies: @Giant Duck

    Look at Hawaii – they are multi-racial with almost no blacks and reasonably free of racial conflict.
     
    LOL. Have you ever been there? The place is seething with racial conflict.
    , @Nathan
    Lol. That's a howler, haole.
  24. Having been transplanted to Oklahoma from Southern California at a rather young age, I am aware of this phenomenon. The rules by which one is considered to be an “official” indian can be very complex, however. To determine who is a tribal member varies by tribal group. The Dawes Act broke up the old reservation system and granted both land allotments and US citizenship to tribal members. At first this did not apply to a number of Oklahoma-based tribes, but they were eventually included by additional legislation. For the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, the largest Cherokee group, IIRC, tribal membership requires an ancestor listed on the tribal census rolls created by the Dawes Commission around 1900. Percentage of blood does not count at all. This means you can have members of the tribe who have very small percentages of native blood. (I have a relative who has a membership card listing their indian heritage as 1/512.) Alternatively, some tribes require a blood quantum for membership. A much smaller Cherokee group, the United Keetowah Band, requires 1/4 indian blood for membership. In any real sense, it is probably much more “indian,” but a far smaller group. The problem for various tribes in Oklahoma, and many other states for that matter, is that because of intermarriage, the pool of high-blood-percentage individuals is shrinking, causing the tribes relying on blood quantum to therefore shrink over time. This has caused some tribes to relax blood quantum percentages. By ignoring the blood quantum issue entirely, the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma continues to have a large membership (around 300,000 I think), insuring generational continuity. I surmise that one of the reasons that many members of this group strongly resist what Warren is doing, is they do not want to go down the path of blood percentage having anything to do with tribal membership. As a side note, most folks, even with indian ancestry, didn’t care much about it until casinos. It is also worth noting that the Cherokee tribal government was not reconstituted until the 1940′s. One of the principal chiefs in the early years was W.W. Keeler, a chemical engineer who eventually was the CEO of Phillips Petroleum.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Excellent post
  25. “I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be.”

    Very interesting assertion, one with which I agree. And not just because of the fairly high percentage of multi-generational white Oklahomans who have at least one Indian ancestor. But more so because a few years ago one of those studies of ancestral origins found that OK is the state with the highest percentage of people who claim Irish ancestry.

    ‘The red-headed adventurers’ who are known to have been the vast majority of fathers of mixed-race children with Indian women on the southern and southwestern frontiers were indeed of preponderantly Celtic ancestry: primarily Ulster Protestant from Scots Lowland stock, but also Irish Catholic, Scottish Highland, and Welsh. Cherokee chief John Ross and Creek chief Alexander McGillivray both had Highland family names, and both knew that and knew that they had kin who were ‘white,’ many of them also having a dollop of Indian ancestry.

    I would guess that more than a few of the posters here as boys would have read the northeast OK set novel Where the Red Fern Grows by Wilson Rawls. The family in the tale is white, but also part of the Cherokee tribe.

    When those eminent historians Forrest McDonald and Grady McWhiney (2 more Highland surnames) began writing how and why they thought Southern culture (and the local cultures of the Little Dixies of southwestern PA and the southern quarters or even thirds of OH, IN, and IL) had been determined primarily by peoples from Celtic lands, rather than England, they were met first by a large number of older academics giving them the thumbs up, and then by a series of vicious attacks by scholars who were either known Leftists or were perceived moderates obsessed with not offending Leftists; they called it racist. And then the early recognized neocon-allied academics declared their total opposition to any such ideas being mentioned.

    When Leftists hate something that is about white Gentiles to the point of demanding it not be aired, and the neocons also get involved on the side of Leftists, then you know it is true and a threat to the Left.

    OK is a prime example.

    • Replies: @densa
    Yes, and even prior to OK, there was mixing among the races. Early on being of mixed blood was taken as a point of pride, a sign of early pioneer heritage. And, as you point out, some of the early Cherokee chiefs were White. Amerindians were romanticized as soon as the bloodshed stopped. There were mixed breed or half-breed counties, such as at the eastern border where Kansas meets Nebraska.

    Then there was the issue of the Dawes rolls in the first place, which was partly to stop becoming a tribe of Blacks. Race relations can get so complicated.

    Warren's claims might have some historical merit, but the fact remains that she is not Cherokee. If she were to make that claim as a White person by appearance, she would have to have a record of Cherokee ancestry. Even if her ancestry traced back to Ross, it would be in the Cherokee records.
  26. Diversity Cheat Elizabeth Warren has Crawford ancestry out of Tennessee.

    A good portion of Tennessee people went to Oklahoma; I’m talking about the ones who went on their own volition, not the Amerindians that Andrew Jackson removed to prevent more bloody contact between White pioneers/settlers and Amerindians.

  27. @Declane
    "You're part-Cherokee, my very special child," is something every Oklahoman is told in the crib. It's a state that tends to romanticize Native culture. Despite all the Cherokees running around, I can count the number of full-blood Natives I ever met on one hand. One was a Kickapoo. The other a Ho-Chunk from Wisconsin.

    I doubt there have been any full blooded American Indians born after the Civil War. Just as they have not found any African-Americans who are >95% African.

    One reason the American Indian Tribes all opposes DNA testing, none of the tribe members who have been tested are more than 40% Native American. None of the Cherokee tested are more than 30% Native American, on average a Cherokee tribe member is genetically about 3% Native American and 99% of Cherokee Males have a European Y chromosome haplogroup. In fact a Cherokee male is more likely to have a European Y Haplogroup than the average White American.

    • LOL: Clyde
  28. According to Wikipedia Bradford got a 36 on his Wonderlic. I didn’t know he was that smart.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Sam Bradford is pretty smart. He has been paid, not earned, well over $120 million dollars despite being a terrible NFL quarterback.
    , @Sam Haysom
    Bradford is a really good dude who absolutely could have been a top 8 QB if his bones weren’t so brittle.

    I think the next frontier in QB analysis has to be personality analysis Bradford is a quiet dude and I just don’t know how amenable that is to succeeding in the NFL. I almost seems like it’s better to be weird standoffish like Aaron Rodgers than it is to be friendly but shy like a Bradford or a Mariota.
  29. A few months ago I saw an article which indicated that the “trace elements” (i.e., very small segments) that are returned with DNA tests are likely errors and are unreliable. I thought it was on this blog, but I can’t seem to locate it now.

  30. Sam attended and played football for Putnam City North High School. Putnam City High School is in the same district, but located a bit south of PC North. All Putnam City District High Schools play in the same stadium located at Putnam City High School also known as PC Original. My kids graduated from North. We live just down the street.

  31. @Shingas the Terrible
    Considering that Warren’s real family roots are Southern, shouldn’t she be cast out of the Party for benefiting from her ancestors blood guilt? After all, isn’t the new face of the Party Harris, Booker, DeLeon, and Ocasio-Cortez?

    It’s always a good strategy to sow division among your enemies.

    yeah, it was those Southerners who sent the Cherokee packing along the Trail of Tears. She should have her little Indian percentage whoop on her big, white, Southern percentage. Maybe have a mole or two removed and consider it a little scalping.

  32. @FO337

    “There’s a lot of people in Oklahoma that have Indian blood."
     
    Never knew a single person from Oklahoma who didn't claim to have Amerind blood.

    Pretty much a point of honor for them, and to some extent most 'White' Americans.

    ‘Pretty much a point of honor for them, and to some extent most ‘White’ Americans.’

    Yeah. My daughter’s boyfriend — who is whiter than white — used to keep claiming his family was part-Indian.

    She finally got fed up with this and paid for a DNA test. ‘You are not part Indian.’ I’d guess anyone who has any awareness of their family having spent time on the frontier tends to improve the story. I’ve certainly seen that with various bits of our family lore.

  33. “I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be.”

    I looked at the list of actors on that list and I agree that many of them just seem quintessentially American (James Garner, Gary Busey, Chuck Norris, Van Heflin, Candy Clark, Mary Kay Place, Vera Miles).

    But who knew that Tony Randall was a Jewish kid who graduated from Tulsa High? I always thought he was a WASP from Connecticut or something.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Well, maybe he wanted to be. If someone self-identities as a Connecticut WASP, who are you to reject their lived truth, bigot?


    Tony Curtis did a funny and very respectful introduction to Cary Grant for TCM. He said something like "Growing up, I didn't know anyone like Cary Grant--I didn't even know someone like Cary Grant could *possibly* exist. I wanted to look like him, sound like him, be him. When I finally got to the point where someone asked me what kind of movie I wanted to do, I immediately said, "a Service picture with Cary Grant."

    *Curtis enlisted in the United States Navy after the attack on Pearl Harbor and war was declared. Inspired by Cary Grant's role in Destination Tokyo and Tyrone Power's in Crash Dive (1943), he joined the Pacific submarine force.[11] Curtis served aboard a submarine tender, the USS Proteus, until the end of the Second World War. On September 2, 1945, Curtis witnessed the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay from his ship's signal bridge about a mile away.
  34. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Shingas the Terrible
    Considering that Warren’s real family roots are Southern, shouldn’t she be cast out of the Party for benefiting from her ancestors blood guilt? After all, isn’t the new face of the Party Harris, Booker, DeLeon, and Ocasio-Cortez?

    It’s always a good strategy to sow division among your enemies.

    Slave owners or not, her family were the evil frontiersmen who landed in America and kept moving west, cutting down trees. Farming, genociding Indians , destroying buffalo and mountain lions and wolves and destroying the wonderful ness of pre Columbian America.

    Contrast those minions of the devil
    with the revolutionary saints who swarmed out of the communist shetls of Russia determined to transform evil White Christian America into a Jewish communist nation run from Wall Street and Los Angeles

    The history of the USA began in 1880 on Ellis Island, not with the Spanish and English settlements in the 1500s.

  35. 1970 Heisman winner, no. 1 overall pick, and 2-time Super Bowl winner, former NFL QB Jim Plunkett is of Native American ancestry.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Plunkett

  36. @Hodag
    Chief Wahoo McDaniel, while not born in Oklahoma, is a Sooner Football legend and still holds the record for longest punt, 91 yards.

    He must have had a huge tailwind. ♪♫♬ ♪♫♬ Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plain!” ♪♫♬

  37. The problem with the average .18% figure is the same one often sees with averages: it’s distorted by a few who have very high values. The average net worth when Bill Gates walks into a room is a lot more than when he leaves that room. Probably very few white Americans have any level of AmInd ancestry, though, as you suggest, it may be significantly higher if you restrict yourselves to those with substantial Revolutionary era ancestry.

    On the other hand Zimmer’s complaint about ancestors being lost is pretty lame. He provides a graph in his tweet that shows that even going back 8 generations, 80% of ancestors will be represented. At 10 generations, it’s about 50%.

    So some adjustment, probably mostly pretty minor, would be required at the lower (upper?) end of the curve.

    What they should really provide for Warren is a distribution that captures the probabilities she would have various amounts of ancestry across the full range. Obviously, there’s some probability that she has an AmInd ancestor more recent than 6 generations ago, and some that she has one or more ancestors more than 10 generations ago. It was fairly arbitrary that the analysis stopped at 6 and 10. I never saw an account as to why those cutoffs were chosen — it wasn’t clear what error bars they incorporated.

    A distribution might be provided that tells us what’s really going on. These estimates could be made to include the possibility that some ancestors would be lost in the DNA.

    In any case, I don’t see how that distribution would differ in a meaningful way from the crude estimate range of 1/64th through 1/1024th. The 1/64th would stay as is. But, presumably, the 1/1024 would be turned into a quantity somewhat more than 1/1000 (though still less than 1/512).

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Correct. On another thread, someone said that only something like 2.5% of self-identified white Americans have an Indian ancestry. So 97.5% have zero and 2.5% have an average of 7.2% and that gets you to .18% overall average. Generally speaking, anything less than 1/8 (12.5%) doesn't change your appearance enough that you can't "pass" or identify as white. This is especially true for N. American Indians who didn't look that different from Southern Europeans to begin with.
  38. I’ve been amused (but not surprised) that the Cherokees being wheeled out to speak against Warren are themselves very white. Like Two Spirit Rebecca Nagle:

    By the way, Warren is not the only white person trading on Native ancestry in academia, I assure you.

    • Troll: Hibernian
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Go sail away with Bogie and Bacall.
  39. Isn’t there a theme of of half-indian male love interests in harlequin romance novels? The idea behind these male characters is that they are somewhat wild, dangerous, and untameable until the right women comes along.

    In Canada, apparently, the ethnic group with the highest rate of teetotaling is Native Canadians.

    eded

    • Replies: @Jack D

    In Canada, apparently, the ethnic group with the highest rate of teetotaling is Native Canadians.
     
    There are a couple of reasons for this:

    1. People with alcoholic tendencies (especially those who have been thru AA) know that they cannot just take one drink - once they start they will keep drinking until they pass out. So many of them completely abstain.

    2. In the far North there are whole Inuit villages that are "dry" for this reason - they know that they can't manage alcohol as a race so they try to keep it completely unavailable to everyone.
  40. @FO337

    “There’s a lot of people in Oklahoma that have Indian blood."
     
    Never knew a single person from Oklahoma who didn't claim to have Amerind blood.

    Pretty much a point of honor for them, and to some extent most 'White' Americans.

    I come across this a lot as well, which underscores Warren’s uber white detachment from a country that still had a lot of ancestral memory of its Anglo-Celt, frontier-capitalist roots when she was growing up.

    Note that the Osage drum-design of the Oklahoma flag was adopted in 1925, in a contest sponsored by the Daughters of the American Revolution! This was around the era when Warren’s parents were married; more evidence that she is spinning tales out of whole cloth about Oklahoma’s supposed rampant, anti-Indian animus. Oklahoma should be thankful that Warren headed to the NY-NJ-MA Progressivist hub to be among her own kind.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Oklahoma should be thankful that Warren headed to the NY-NJ-MA Progressivist hub to be among her own kind.
     
    This is how the Progressives reproduce their Uruk-hai. See also Steven Colbert.
  41. Copy edit, Bradford went to PC North.

    I love the potential for tension between the millions of descendants of Edward I and the Ulster Scots relatives of William Wallace.

    I semi fervantly hope I made a mistake, so that someone can copy edit me.

  42. @candid_observer
    The problem with the average .18% figure is the same one often sees with averages: it's distorted by a few who have very high values. The average net worth when Bill Gates walks into a room is a lot more than when he leaves that room. Probably very few white Americans have any level of AmInd ancestry, though, as you suggest, it may be significantly higher if you restrict yourselves to those with substantial Revolutionary era ancestry.

    On the other hand Zimmer's complaint about ancestors being lost is pretty lame. He provides a graph in his tweet that shows that even going back 8 generations, 80% of ancestors will be represented. At 10 generations, it's about 50%.

    https://twitter.com/carlzimmer/status/1052225051557269505

    So some adjustment, probably mostly pretty minor, would be required at the lower (upper?) end of the curve.

    What they should really provide for Warren is a distribution that captures the probabilities she would have various amounts of ancestry across the full range. Obviously, there's some probability that she has an AmInd ancestor more recent than 6 generations ago, and some that she has one or more ancestors more than 10 generations ago. It was fairly arbitrary that the analysis stopped at 6 and 10. I never saw an account as to why those cutoffs were chosen -- it wasn't clear what error bars they incorporated.

    A distribution might be provided that tells us what's really going on. These estimates could be made to include the possibility that some ancestors would be lost in the DNA.

    In any case, I don't see how that distribution would differ in a meaningful way from the crude estimate range of 1/64th through 1/1024th. The 1/64th would stay as is. But, presumably, the 1/1024 would be turned into a quantity somewhat more than 1/1000 (though still less than 1/512).

    Correct. On another thread, someone said that only something like 2.5% of self-identified white Americans have an Indian ancestry. So 97.5% have zero and 2.5% have an average of 7.2% and that gets you to .18% overall average. Generally speaking, anything less than 1/8 (12.5%) doesn’t change your appearance enough that you can’t “pass” or identify as white. This is especially true for N. American Indians who didn’t look that different from Southern Europeans to begin with.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Generally speaking, anything less than 1/8 (12.5%) doesn’t change your appearance enough that you can’t “pass” or identify as white. This is especially true for N. American Indians who didn’t look that different from Southern Europeans to begin with."

    Artie Lange has way more than 12.5% Amerindian ancestry. His DNA results revealed that he is 25% Amerindian yet phenotype wise he still looks like a Guinea.


    Yet despite Artie Lange being a gazillion times more Amerindian than Elizabeth Warren, he still does not identify as an Oppressed Person Of Color.

  43. You sternly corrected me some time ago when I said she was 1/24th Indian. I was of course trying to be preposterous, like her story, but I’m changing my story and saying it was a typo.

  44. Are Oklahoma Whites on average less blond/Nordic looking than other Flyover Country Whites if there was so much racial miscegenation between Whites and Amerindians there?

    Are Oklahoman Whites on average as dark haired as New York/New Jersey/Connecticut/Rhode Island/Massachusetts Whites with it’s heavy immigration of Portuguese, Jews, Italians, and Greeks.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I think you tend to get in Oklahoma situations like Sam Bradford's parents. His mother looks very Northwestern European and his dad mostly does too, except for a hint around the eyes. Sam, however, is pretty dark and pretty Indian looking. (I doubt it's a John Redcorn-type thing. Sam's huge dad played for the OU Sooners on the offensive line, so any John Redcorn lurking about would have to be pretty brave even for a brave.)
    , @Anondc
    Having married an Oklahoman and subsequently spending a lot of time there one of he most supervising things in first noticed was the large amount of blonde and red haired families with tribal license plates. I would say highness it as blonde as people from the heavily Germanic states you would not notice a huge difference in the appearance of Oklahoma whites vs other flyover whites.

    Another throng I noticed is that the part Indian whites are completely assimilated intongreater white society with no prejudice, while full blood Indians are perceived far differently.
    , @S. Anonyia
    Oklahomans are almost as blond as Midwesterners. The only part of flyover country that’s almost as dark haired as the Northeast is the Deep South (don’t be fooled by the hair dye look at the males). Yet there are fewer stories of Indian ancestors there relative to say, Appalachia.
  45. James Garner was part Cherokee, and he grew up here in Norman and went to the same elementary school, Wilson Elementary, as Elizabeth Warren. His brother lived down the street from us, and James would visit in a gold Camaro, or, perhaps it was a Firebird.

    https://www.indianz.com/News/2014/07/21/james-garner-actor-with-cherok.asp

  46. I’d also like to note that Native American last names like “Sixkiller” are extremely impressive, at least to young boys.

    I don’t know what it means, but I assume it means that one of Sonny’s ancestors killed six people. I.e. don’t mess with Sonny.

    • Replies: @J1234

    I’d also like to note that Native American last names like “Sixkiller” are extremely impressive, at least to young boys.
     
    I remember little about college football in the early 70's, but I certainly do remember Sonny Sixkiller. And you're right, it's the name. Unforgettable. The only only other college quarterback I remember from that era was my home state's Jerry Tagge. Great quarterback, but his name wasn't nearly as cool.

    As to Elizabeth Warren, I have an acquaintance who claims that his mom is one half Cherokee, yet he himself looks like he just stepped off a Viking boat: Tall, bright red hair, pale complexion and lots of freckles. It's always a laugh to see him out in the sunshine, covered with so much sunscreen that he looks like he's been painted.

    He seems to be (unlike E. Warren) a person of integrity, so it's unlikely he's fabricating his ancestry, especially when you consider that both he and the people he hangs with have a decidedly conservative bent. He's only brought his heritage up once, and he's a Southerner with an interest in Confederate history. He could be mistaken about the percentage of his mom's heritage, but claims that she has a dark complexion.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    last names like “Sixkiller” … I don’t know what it means
     
    His ancestors were slayers of suds.

    http://www.robulrichbrews.com/uploads/4/6/8/8/46886161/9069057_orig.jpg
    , @Christo
    Could also be one used or owned a Colt pistol or repeating rifle. A "six-gun", in Indian language and naming conventions could easily have been "six-killer"
  47. @Jack D
    Correct. On another thread, someone said that only something like 2.5% of self-identified white Americans have an Indian ancestry. So 97.5% have zero and 2.5% have an average of 7.2% and that gets you to .18% overall average. Generally speaking, anything less than 1/8 (12.5%) doesn't change your appearance enough that you can't "pass" or identify as white. This is especially true for N. American Indians who didn't look that different from Southern Europeans to begin with.

    “Generally speaking, anything less than 1/8 (12.5%) doesn’t change your appearance enough that you can’t “pass” or identify as white. This is especially true for N. American Indians who didn’t look that different from Southern Europeans to begin with.”

    Artie Lange has way more than 12.5% Amerindian ancestry. His DNA results revealed that he is 25% Amerindian yet phenotype wise he still looks like a Guinea.

    Yet despite Artie Lange being a gazillion times more Amerindian than Elizabeth Warren, he still does not identify as an Oppressed Person Of Color.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    According to the Wiki, Lange found this out in 2003, which is the dark ages for DNA testing. That's probably around the time that Larry David "learned" that he was 30% Amerind (actual % = 0).
  48. @Jake
    "I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be."

    Very interesting assertion, one with which I agree. And not just because of the fairly high percentage of multi-generational white Oklahomans who have at least one Indian ancestor. But more so because a few years ago one of those studies of ancestral origins found that OK is the state with the highest percentage of people who claim Irish ancestry.

    'The red-headed adventurers' who are known to have been the vast majority of fathers of mixed-race children with Indian women on the southern and southwestern frontiers were indeed of preponderantly Celtic ancestry: primarily Ulster Protestant from Scots Lowland stock, but also Irish Catholic, Scottish Highland, and Welsh. Cherokee chief John Ross and Creek chief Alexander McGillivray both had Highland family names, and both knew that and knew that they had kin who were 'white,' many of them also having a dollop of Indian ancestry.

    I would guess that more than a few of the posters here as boys would have read the northeast OK set novel Where the Red Fern Grows by Wilson Rawls. The family in the tale is white, but also part of the Cherokee tribe.

    When those eminent historians Forrest McDonald and Grady McWhiney (2 more Highland surnames) began writing how and why they thought Southern culture (and the local cultures of the Little Dixies of southwestern PA and the southern quarters or even thirds of OH, IN, and IL) had been determined primarily by peoples from Celtic lands, rather than England, they were met first by a large number of older academics giving them the thumbs up, and then by a series of vicious attacks by scholars who were either known Leftists or were perceived moderates obsessed with not offending Leftists; they called it racist. And then the early recognized neocon-allied academics declared their total opposition to any such ideas being mentioned.

    When Leftists hate something that is about white Gentiles to the point of demanding it not be aired, and the neocons also get involved on the side of Leftists, then you know it is true and a threat to the Left.

    OK is a prime example.

    Yes, and even prior to OK, there was mixing among the races. Early on being of mixed blood was taken as a point of pride, a sign of early pioneer heritage. And, as you point out, some of the early Cherokee chiefs were White. Amerindians were romanticized as soon as the bloodshed stopped. There were mixed breed or half-breed counties, such as at the eastern border where Kansas meets Nebraska.

    Then there was the issue of the Dawes rolls in the first place, which was partly to stop becoming a tribe of Blacks. Race relations can get so complicated.

    Warren’s claims might have some historical merit, but the fact remains that she is not Cherokee. If she were to make that claim as a White person by appearance, she would have to have a record of Cherokee ancestry. Even if her ancestry traced back to Ross, it would be in the Cherokee records.

  49. @LaHonda
    The craziest part about Oklahoma is it’s sheer overrepresentation in the major stars in the world of country music. Even though the music is produced in Nashville, all the big artists seem to be from Oklahoma:

    Garth Brooks
    Toby Keith
    Carrie Underwood
    Blake Shelton
    Reba McEntire
    Brooks & Dunn (Ronnie Dunn)
    Vince Gill
    Joe Diffie

    It’s all Merle Haggard’s fault.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    Merle was born in California (outskirts of Bakersfield). Though his parents were Okies, so definitely had a cultural claim on OK.
  50. @The Anti-Gnostic
    I come across this a lot as well, which underscores Warren's uber white detachment from a country that still had a lot of ancestral memory of its Anglo-Celt, frontier-capitalist roots when she was growing up.

    Note that the Osage drum-design of the Oklahoma flag was adopted in 1925, in a contest sponsored by the Daughters of the American Revolution! This was around the era when Warren's parents were married; more evidence that she is spinning tales out of whole cloth about Oklahoma's supposed rampant, anti-Indian animus. Oklahoma should be thankful that Warren headed to the NY-NJ-MA Progressivist hub to be among her own kind.

    Oklahoma should be thankful that Warren headed to the NY-NJ-MA Progressivist hub to be among her own kind.

    This is how the Progressives reproduce their Uruk-hai. See also Steven Colbert.

  51. @ThreeCranes
    Americans in the past--even in Norman Rockwell's 1950's!--weren't so hung up on Indian ancestry as liberals try (mightily) to put over on us....


    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iRvQpYZ2Z5k/Td-HFa7-PfI/AAAAAAAAPdQ/qYP1MSmdO-E/s1600/familytree_Norman_Rockwell.jpg

    That kid is part injun, part Gabby Hayes and part pirate. Cool!

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Rockwell did have a sense of humor. It's well known that he used his neighbors as models. The son of the Yankee soldier, the Anglican preacher looking dude, looks like Rockwell himself.
    , @Desiderius
    Wonder if the pirate is Lord Hamilton?
  52. @Benjaminl
    I'd also like to note that Native American last names like "Sixkiller" are extremely impressive, at least to young boys.

    I don't know what it means, but I assume it means that one of Sonny's ancestors killed six people. I.e. don't mess with Sonny.

    I’d also like to note that Native American last names like “Sixkiller” are extremely impressive, at least to young boys.

    I remember little about college football in the early 70′s, but I certainly do remember Sonny Sixkiller. And you’re right, it’s the name. Unforgettable. The only only other college quarterback I remember from that era was my home state’s Jerry Tagge. Great quarterback, but his name wasn’t nearly as cool.

    As to Elizabeth Warren, I have an acquaintance who claims that his mom is one half Cherokee, yet he himself looks like he just stepped off a Viking boat: Tall, bright red hair, pale complexion and lots of freckles. It’s always a laugh to see him out in the sunshine, covered with so much sunscreen that he looks like he’s been painted.

    He seems to be (unlike E. Warren) a person of integrity, so it’s unlikely he’s fabricating his ancestry, especially when you consider that both he and the people he hangs with have a decidedly conservative bent. He’s only brought his heritage up once, and he’s a Southerner with an interest in Confederate history. He could be mistaken about the percentage of his mom’s heritage, but claims that she has a dark complexion.

  53. I suspect initially Warren may have played up this fake Cherokee identity for social standing rather than affirmative action benefits.

    As a white Oklahoman she must have faced a lot of snobbery from her fellow New England academics. Becoming Native American woman must have been a way for her to boost her social standing. I don’t think she expected to get affirmative action benefits when she started lying about her identity.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It’s really odd how it’s socially acceptable to be transracial in some ways- such as a million whites telling others they are Indians without the slightest evidence, yet Dolezal got run through the ringer for it. Maybe it’s because it’s more common to be claimed than white -black or maybe people are used to seeing those with no perceived differences from whites who are “Indians” by 1/16 blood or something like that whereas someone with black blood will typically be black enough to notice it.
  54. For example, Westerners such as Mark Twain tended to be prejudiced against part-Indians (e.g., compare the villainous half-breed Injun Joe in Tom Sawyer to the lovable slave Jim in Huckleberry Finn), but Easterners such as James Fennimore Cooper tended to be prejudiced in favor of part-Indians.

    There’s a natural law in here somewhere…

    Negative feelings between races are directly proportional to the races’ proximity to each other.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Twain wrote about this very issue. Seems that even in his day romanticizing the noble savage was beginning to to go on, so he wrote a short piece about it, shooting the whole thing down with comical results from his own personal observations as well as those of others, as someone who had actually lived around them. Great read if you get a chance, it’s online and maybe at most 10 pages long.
  55. How do you figure that James Fenemore Cooper favored Indians? In “Last of the Mohicans the protagonist Natty Bumpo declares his racial purity at every opportunity lest someone thinks that his frontier abilities stem from some Indian heritage. He seems desperate to be sure no one mistakes him for a half-breed.

    • Replies: @Millennial
    Cooper didn't favor Indians completely, but he idealized the colonial frontier and believed that Europeans were responsible for ruining that ideal "state of nature." So, his hero is a white man who has largely embraced Indian culture.

    To some extent Last of the Mohicans is about mocking racialist ideas. Natty's skills, therefore, have nothing to do with his race. For similar reasons it is heavily implied (I don't recall if stated explicitly) that Colonel Munro's daughters were the offspring of an Afro-Caribbean mother.
    , @Sam Haysom
    I think that was more a nature vs nurture thing there as Natty was raised by Delaware or some such tribe right? And his buddy the Mohican was definitely depicted as very noble. I wonder if Cooper says anything about the Indians in The American Democrat. Complete aside but it’s pretty interesting how Cooper’s reputation rose concurrent with interest in the Age of Jackson and then dissipated as the age of Jackson feel out of focus.

    I never realized the Iowa Hawkeyes were named of his alias in LotM.
  56. Three weeks out and the big public debate is about fractions of racial admixture in DNA.

    Probably not a best-case scenario for Dem strategists. Can’t we find somebecky to change the subject?

    https://nypost.com/2018/10/17/golfcart-gail-calls-cops-on-black-dad-at-his-kids-soccer-game/

    • Replies: @gunner29

    Three weeks out and the big public debate is about fractions of racial admixture in DNA.

    Probably not a best-case scenario for Dem strategists. Can’t we find somebecky to change the subject?
     
    This was intended to be something to damage Trump and conservatives just before the elections.

    Not working. Just like the Kavanaugh circus was meant to get leftys all worked up and voting!

    That didn't work either. It's the conservatives that are finally seeing what the leftys would do to them if they ever got in charge with the current insane mind....
  57. Admit it Steve, you didn’t even bother guessing with Chuck Norris. He bores you plus he’s just too low brow to appeal to you at all. If he golfed or was an architect you would have done the research and math back to Christopher Columbus.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I like Chuck Norris. His martial arts studio was on Ventura Blvd when I was a kid. A bunch of my classmates went there for lessons after school.
  58. The tricky part of dna is that although you inherit 50% from each parent you probably DO NOT inherit 25% from each grandparent. Theoretically you could inherit 49-1-1-49 or something like that. .

  59. iSteve, you forgot qb Sonny Sixkiller, a Cherokee born in Oklahoma but raised in the Northwest.

  60. anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dreadnought
    "I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be."

    I looked at the list of actors on that list and I agree that many of them just seem quintessentially American (James Garner, Gary Busey, Chuck Norris, Van Heflin, Candy Clark, Mary Kay Place, Vera Miles).

    But who knew that Tony Randall was a Jewish kid who graduated from Tulsa High? I always thought he was a WASP from Connecticut or something.

    Well, maybe he wanted to be. If someone self-identities as a Connecticut WASP, who are you to reject their lived truth, bigot?

    Tony Curtis did a funny and very respectful introduction to Cary Grant for TCM. He said something like “Growing up, I didn’t know anyone like Cary Grant–I didn’t even know someone like Cary Grant could *possibly* exist. I wanted to look like him, sound like him, be him. When I finally got to the point where someone asked me what kind of movie I wanted to do, I immediately said, “a Service picture with Cary Grant.”

    *Curtis enlisted in the United States Navy after the attack on Pearl Harbor and war was declared. Inspired by Cary Grant’s role in Destination Tokyo and Tyrone Power’s in Crash Dive (1943), he joined the Pacific submarine force.[11] Curtis served aboard a submarine tender, the USS Proteus, until the end of the Second World War. On September 2, 1945, Curtis witnessed the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay from his ship’s signal bridge about a mile away.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Other great moments in mid-century Jewish worship of gentiles:

    In one of those ridiculous boomer baseball nostalgia documentaries they had a series of Jews rapturously recounting their idolization of Mickey Mantle:

    Billy Crystal: He looked great, he played great, even his name was great. Just saying it: Mick-ey Mant-le.

    Richard Lewis: Mickey Mantle...I was just glad his name wasn't Shlomo Hershlog.
    , @Anonymous
    Proteus was one of the two tenders at Point Loma when I was stationed there. Was famous for how it was still a WW2 ship in service. Decommed in the early 90s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Proteus_(AS-19)
  61. @Pat Boyle
    How do you figure that James Fenemore Cooper favored Indians? In "Last of the Mohicans the protagonist Natty Bumpo declares his racial purity at every opportunity lest someone thinks that his frontier abilities stem from some Indian heritage. He seems desperate to be sure no one mistakes him for a half-breed.

    Cooper didn’t favor Indians completely, but he idealized the colonial frontier and believed that Europeans were responsible for ruining that ideal “state of nature.” So, his hero is a white man who has largely embraced Indian culture.

    To some extent Last of the Mohicans is about mocking racialist ideas. Natty’s skills, therefore, have nothing to do with his race. For similar reasons it is heavily implied (I don’t recall if stated explicitly) that Colonel Munro’s daughters were the offspring of an Afro-Caribbean mother.

    • Replies: @Gracebear
    Only one of them, the dark haired one. The other was a blond. The two girls had different mothers.
  62. @istevefan
    According to Wikipedia Bradford got a 36 on his Wonderlic. I didn't know he was that smart.

    Sam Bradford is pretty smart. He has been paid, not earned, well over $120 million dollars despite being a terrible NFL quarterback.

  63. Steve: Zimmer thinks that meiosis involves chromosomes being taken at random from the existing pairs, not the recombination of the pair (really, it’s one of his tweets yesterday), so he should vastly overestimate how quickly one becomes likely to lose all traces of an ancestor in DNA.

    edit: I see that candid observer linked that tweet already

  64. anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Well, maybe he wanted to be. If someone self-identities as a Connecticut WASP, who are you to reject their lived truth, bigot?


    Tony Curtis did a funny and very respectful introduction to Cary Grant for TCM. He said something like "Growing up, I didn't know anyone like Cary Grant--I didn't even know someone like Cary Grant could *possibly* exist. I wanted to look like him, sound like him, be him. When I finally got to the point where someone asked me what kind of movie I wanted to do, I immediately said, "a Service picture with Cary Grant."

    *Curtis enlisted in the United States Navy after the attack on Pearl Harbor and war was declared. Inspired by Cary Grant's role in Destination Tokyo and Tyrone Power's in Crash Dive (1943), he joined the Pacific submarine force.[11] Curtis served aboard a submarine tender, the USS Proteus, until the end of the Second World War. On September 2, 1945, Curtis witnessed the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay from his ship's signal bridge about a mile away.

    Other great moments in mid-century Jewish worship of gentiles:

    In one of those ridiculous boomer baseball nostalgia documentaries they had a series of Jews rapturously recounting their idolization of Mickey Mantle:

    Billy Crystal: He looked great, he played great, even his name was great. Just saying it: Mick-ey Mant-le.

    Richard Lewis: Mickey Mantle…I was just glad his name wasn’t Shlomo Hershlog.

  65. It misses the whole point of Tom Sawyer to suppose that he too “lights out for the Territory” at the end of HUCKLEBERRY FINN. Huck goes alone. At that time, moreover, the territory for which he lit out covered a great deal more land than present-day Oklahoma. Writing in the 1880′s, Mark Twain set his story back before the passage of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, for readers who could hardly miss the ironies accumulated through all that had happened since.

  66. @Pat Boyle
    How do you figure that James Fenemore Cooper favored Indians? In "Last of the Mohicans the protagonist Natty Bumpo declares his racial purity at every opportunity lest someone thinks that his frontier abilities stem from some Indian heritage. He seems desperate to be sure no one mistakes him for a half-breed.

    I think that was more a nature vs nurture thing there as Natty was raised by Delaware or some such tribe right? And his buddy the Mohican was definitely depicted as very noble. I wonder if Cooper says anything about the Indians in The American Democrat. Complete aside but it’s pretty interesting how Cooper’s reputation rose concurrent with interest in the Age of Jackson and then dissipated as the age of Jackson feel out of focus.

    I never realized the Iowa Hawkeyes were named of his alias in LotM.

  67. @Oklahoma Transplant
    Having been transplanted to Oklahoma from Southern California at a rather young age, I am aware of this phenomenon. The rules by which one is considered to be an "official" indian can be very complex, however. To determine who is a tribal member varies by tribal group. The Dawes Act broke up the old reservation system and granted both land allotments and US citizenship to tribal members. At first this did not apply to a number of Oklahoma-based tribes, but they were eventually included by additional legislation. For the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, the largest Cherokee group, IIRC, tribal membership requires an ancestor listed on the tribal census rolls created by the Dawes Commission around 1900. Percentage of blood does not count at all. This means you can have members of the tribe who have very small percentages of native blood. (I have a relative who has a membership card listing their indian heritage as 1/512.) Alternatively, some tribes require a blood quantum for membership. A much smaller Cherokee group, the United Keetowah Band, requires 1/4 indian blood for membership. In any real sense, it is probably much more "indian," but a far smaller group. The problem for various tribes in Oklahoma, and many other states for that matter, is that because of intermarriage, the pool of high-blood-percentage individuals is shrinking, causing the tribes relying on blood quantum to therefore shrink over time. This has caused some tribes to relax blood quantum percentages. By ignoring the blood quantum issue entirely, the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma continues to have a large membership (around 300,000 I think), insuring generational continuity. I surmise that one of the reasons that many members of this group strongly resist what Warren is doing, is they do not want to go down the path of blood percentage having anything to do with tribal membership. As a side note, most folks, even with indian ancestry, didn't care much about it until casinos. It is also worth noting that the Cherokee tribal government was not reconstituted until the 1940's. One of the principal chiefs in the early years was W.W. Keeler, a chemical engineer who eventually was the CEO of Phillips Petroleum.

    Excellent post

  68. @Desiderius
    It’s all Merle Haggard’s fault.

    Merle was born in California (outskirts of Bakersfield). Though his parents were Okies, so definitely had a cultural claim on OK.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Bakersfield might as well be in Oklahoma. Maybe instead of breaking up California Oklahoma could just extend the panhandle out to the inland empire up to Fresno.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Merle was born in California (outskirts of Bakersfield). Though his parents were Okies, so definitely had a cultural claim on OK.
     
    So do Ron and Clint Howard, whose father Rance was an Okie as well.
  69. @FruitDestroyer
    Jessica Alba was on the George Lopez show a few years ago. When presented with the results of her DNA test that showed she was only 13 percent Amerind (and 87 percent European) she looked like she was going to cry. This was after Lopez said Larry David's test showed he was over 30 percent Amerind.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZNAqwrm9hY

    So if we aggregated the entire population of the US into the form of one person, Jessica Alba would be whiter than that.

  70. @Steve Sailer
    Right, I was kind of disappointed that Mickey Mantle, whom I assume that my overseas readers assume is an American folk legend like Paul Bunyan or Jack Armstrong, never claimed to be part Indian.

    On the other hand, he did drink himself to death.

  71. @Benjaminl
    I'd also like to note that Native American last names like "Sixkiller" are extremely impressive, at least to young boys.

    I don't know what it means, but I assume it means that one of Sonny's ancestors killed six people. I.e. don't mess with Sonny.

    last names like “Sixkiller” … I don’t know what it means

    His ancestors were slayers of suds.

    • LOL: Dtbb
  72. I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be.

    Every county in Oklahoma voted majority Trump, that map is redder than the native red clay:

    https://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/oklahoma/

    If memory serves, in both 2008 and 2012, every county in Oklahoma voted majority GOP.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    Oklahoma is way more Conservative than it's Southern neighbor Texas and that's because Mexicans have not demographically overtaken Oklahoma.
  73. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    That kid is part injun, part Gabby Hayes and part pirate. Cool!

    Rockwell did have a sense of humor. It’s well known that he used his neighbors as models. The son of the Yankee soldier, the Anglican preacher looking dude, looks like Rockwell himself.

  74. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_P._Stafford

    No mention if he is Indian. Since he is bald I’d say there is zero chance he has any Indian in him.

  75. @ThreeCranes
    Americans in the past--even in Norman Rockwell's 1950's!--weren't so hung up on Indian ancestry as liberals try (mightily) to put over on us....


    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iRvQpYZ2Z5k/Td-HFa7-PfI/AAAAAAAAPdQ/qYP1MSmdO-E/s1600/familytree_Norman_Rockwell.jpg

    Or the inherent evil of confederates

  76. I grew up in Oklahoma, and it’s true that Amerindian-mixed people are common there, though I don’t have any Amerindian ancestry according to my 23andMe results.

    I think my cousin in Oklahoma, the career politician Chris Benge, is part Cherokee on his father’s side. His mother and my mother are sisters.

  77. Two anecdotes from the early Twentieth century: Joseph Campbell as a boy once told a stranger that he had Red Indian blood (his older brother quickly added “and I have dog blood.”) and Salvador Dali, who could not credibly claim to be a Mohawk, claimed to have some Arab blood as an explanation for his willfulness. Indians were enormously popular in culture, advertising, and entertainment. The swastika was universal and one of its primary explanations was as an Indian sigil (thus the 45th Infantry Division flash, which after Nazism was replaced with a thunderbird — still an Indian symbol). It was probably a common little thing that everybody said, a meme of its time, that so and so “had Indian blood” ( or a local equivalent). Anti-racism made that unfashionable and forgotten. But actual Indians probably remember and resent that past behavior.

  78. @anon

    Current Year people tend to assume that the stigma associated with being part black applied to other races, but that’s not at all indisputable.
     
    Of course people are proud of their Indian blood. The world isn't divided into People of Color vs. Whites. The world is divided into People Who Aren't Black vs. Blacks.
    Look at Hawaii - they are multi-racial with almost no blacks and reasonably free of racial conflict.
    Never let someone use the phrase People of Color without challenging it. The category that counts is People Who Aren't Black.

    Look at Hawaii – they are multi-racial with almost no blacks and reasonably free of racial conflict.

    LOL. Have you ever been there? The place is seething with racial conflict.

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    Case in point- here’s an article about the discrimination that Micronesians face in Hawaii:

    https://www.google.com/amp/amp.civilbeat.org/2011/06/no-aloha-for-micronesians-in-hawaii/

    I imagine most mainland Americans probably couldn’t tell the difference between a native Hawaiian and a Micronesian. But those Hawaiians sure can tell.
  79. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    That kid is part injun, part Gabby Hayes and part pirate. Cool!

    Wonder if the pirate is Lord Hamilton?

    • Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose
    The wife looks Spanish, presumably that's her coat of arms? Castillo?
  80. I kind of think Ward Churchill’s cheekbones out-Indian Senator Warren’s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill#Genealogy_and_Tribal_affiliation

  81. @MSNBC
    I always assumed that Jim Plunkett was mostly Native American from his darker complexion. A Wiki search shows “Mexican” with family from New Mexico and one parent may have had “Native American” blood.

    So I guess they discern if you’re Latino-Native American vs. just pure US-based Tribe Native American. The “Latino-Native American” may be more like a Brazilian continuity thing, versus a “1/1024th” thing for “US-based Tribe Native American.”

    I’d also assume Tony Romo may have Latino-Native American from his father’s “Mexican” side.

    Michael Irvin famously speculated that Romo had a (male) ancestor who had “jumped the fence”, as it were.

  82. @eded
    Isn't there a theme of of half-indian male love interests in harlequin romance novels? The idea behind these male characters is that they are somewhat wild, dangerous, and untameable until the right women comes along.

    In Canada, apparently, the ethnic group with the highest rate of teetotaling is Native Canadians.

    eded

    In Canada, apparently, the ethnic group with the highest rate of teetotaling is Native Canadians.

    There are a couple of reasons for this:

    1. People with alcoholic tendencies (especially those who have been thru AA) know that they cannot just take one drink – once they start they will keep drinking until they pass out. So many of them completely abstain.

    2. In the far North there are whole Inuit villages that are “dry” for this reason – they know that they can’t manage alcohol as a race so they try to keep it completely unavailable to everyone.

  83. @FruitDestroyer
    Jessica Alba was on the George Lopez show a few years ago. When presented with the results of her DNA test that showed she was only 13 percent Amerind (and 87 percent European) she looked like she was going to cry. This was after Lopez said Larry David's test showed he was over 30 percent Amerind.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZNAqwrm9hY

    This was after Lopez said Larry David’s test showed he was over 30 percent Amerind.

    Larry David is not 30% Amerind, he is 0% Amerind. If it was possible to be less than 0% Amerind, he would be that too.

  84. @ThreeCranes
    Americans in the past--even in Norman Rockwell's 1950's!--weren't so hung up on Indian ancestry as liberals try (mightily) to put over on us....


    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iRvQpYZ2Z5k/Td-HFa7-PfI/AAAAAAAAPdQ/qYP1MSmdO-E/s1600/familytree_Norman_Rockwell.jpg

    Precisely.

    But note what race is not included.

    Blacks are outside the pale; always have been, and always will be.

  85. @istevefan
    According to Wikipedia Bradford got a 36 on his Wonderlic. I didn't know he was that smart.

    Bradford is a really good dude who absolutely could have been a top 8 QB if his bones weren’t so brittle.

    I think the next frontier in QB analysis has to be personality analysis Bradford is a quiet dude and I just don’t know how amenable that is to succeeding in the NFL. I almost seems like it’s better to be weird standoffish like Aaron Rodgers than it is to be friendly but shy like a Bradford or a Mariota.

  86. If memory serves, Oklahoma license plates used to say ‘Native America’.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Digital Samizdat:

    In addition to Native America, Visit and Is OK! have also served as Oklahoma license plate slogans. The latter is the one that sticks out in my memory.

  87. @TWS
    Admit it Steve, you didn't even bother guessing with Chuck Norris. He bores you plus he's just too low brow to appeal to you at all. If he golfed or was an architect you would have done the research and math back to Christopher Columbus.

    I like Chuck Norris. His martial arts studio was on Ventura Blvd when I was a kid. A bunch of my classmates went there for lessons after school.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    Chuck Norris

    Golan and Globus

    Shelly Winters

    Martin Balsam

    Never Again

    Lots of other guys besides Chuck Norris have done propaganda movies for Israel

    Hey buddy, is that his own hair? Is Chuck Norris bald or what?

  88. Anonymous[413] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    For example, Westerners such as Mark Twain tended to be prejudiced against part-Indians (e.g., compare the villainous half-breed Injun Joe in Tom Sawyer to the lovable slave Jim in Huckleberry Finn), but Easterners such as James Fennimore Cooper tended to be prejudiced in favor of part-Indians.
     
    There's a natural law in here somewhere...

    Negative feelings between races are directly proportional to the races' proximity to each other.

    Twain wrote about this very issue. Seems that even in his day romanticizing the noble savage was beginning to to go on, so he wrote a short piece about it, shooting the whole thing down with comical results from his own personal observations as well as those of others, as someone who had actually lived around them. Great read if you get a chance, it’s online and maybe at most 10 pages long.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Pretty sure Rousseau predates Twain.
  89. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Three weeks out and the big public debate is about fractions of racial admixture in DNA.

    Probably not a best-case scenario for Dem strategists. Can't we find somebecky to change the subject?

    https://nypost.com/2018/10/17/golfcart-gail-calls-cops-on-black-dad-at-his-kids-soccer-game/

    Three weeks out and the big public debate is about fractions of racial admixture in DNA.

    Probably not a best-case scenario for Dem strategists. Can’t we find somebecky to change the subject?

    This was intended to be something to damage Trump and conservatives just before the elections.

    Not working. Just like the Kavanaugh circus was meant to get leftys all worked up and voting!

    That didn’t work either. It’s the conservatives that are finally seeing what the leftys would do to them if they ever got in charge with the current insane mind….

  90. We lived in Oklahoma twice: the first time when I was an Air Force officer at Tinker AFB in Oklahoma City and the second time as a manager for an Oklahoma state agency.

    I noticed a stark change in Oklahoma culture in the intervening years. In the early 1980s, Amerindians tended to hide their Indian heritage. In the mid-1990s, it seemed that everyone with black hair and a Mediterranean complexion claimed a Cherokee heritage. I’m not exaggerating: a friend of mine tried to cash in on his black hair and complexion … although I thought he looked more Italian than Amerindian. It was a race for the spoils.

    I wonder if the Wiki quote below had anything to do with the cultural change between the early 1980s and the 1990s:

    The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (Pub.L. 100–497, 25 U.S.C. § 2701 et seq.) is a 1988 United States federal law that establishes the jurisdictional framework that governs Indian gaming.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Gaming_Regulatory_Act

    In our second time in Oklahoma, my delightful “barberette” was a young woman named Sarah (not her real name). One day I noticed that, aside from my car, there was only one other car in the parking lot. It had a Commanche license plate (tax breaks, free medical care, and casinos are not the only perks for being Amerindian in Oklahoma). I asked Sarah about it.

    She said that, yes, she was a Commanche from the Ft. Sill area. She showed me her Indian card … the one she shows to get free medical care in special Oklahoma City clinics. The card had her Indian surname. She said it meant “mercy killer”. I guess every tribe needed a few of those before Amerindians won their treaty rights to Western medical care.

    I asked Sarah about her perks on the reservation. She said that, if she lived on the reservation, she would get free housing and a free university education. However, she and her husband chose to live in Oklahoma City. They lived on the edge of town in a trailer and were saving to build a house on the outskirts. We talked linage. She said her father was Italian and her husband was … well, white.

    Yes, it appears that intermarriage would be a progressive threat to tribal rolls if the criteria are too strict; and clearly, DNA cannot be the only arbitrator.

    Somewhere in the 1990s I ran across an aphorism governing current Amerindian/White relationships and the perks that come from being on a tribal roll. Maybe Sarah mentioned it to me.

    When you took our land, you said you would feed us, house us, and educate us as long as the grass was green and the rivers flowed. I guess you didn’t know how long that would be, did you?”

  91. @Anonymous
    Twain wrote about this very issue. Seems that even in his day romanticizing the noble savage was beginning to to go on, so he wrote a short piece about it, shooting the whole thing down with comical results from his own personal observations as well as those of others, as someone who had actually lived around them. Great read if you get a chance, it’s online and maybe at most 10 pages long.

    Pretty sure Rousseau predates Twain.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    irrelevant
  92. @Steve Sailer
    I like Chuck Norris. His martial arts studio was on Ventura Blvd when I was a kid. A bunch of my classmates went there for lessons after school.

    Chuck Norris

    Golan and Globus

    Shelly Winters

    Martin Balsam

    Never Again

    Lots of other guys besides Chuck Norris have done propaganda movies for Israel

    Hey buddy, is that his own hair? Is Chuck Norris bald or what?

  93. I watched Liz Warren’s current campaign video with her family all sure that so-and-so was most certainly Indian, etc., and was reminded of how family lore can so readily replace reality. My dear maternal grandmother was once suspected of having American Indian blood but only when she was about age 60. Born in northern Ohio around 1888, she actually looked Indian but nobody mentioned it until she went to visit her daughter (my mother) in Arizona immediately after WWII. That was when people began to remark that she looked like many of the locals. Over a native jewelry counter, a tribal lady pointed to her and said, “You’re Indian!” Indeed, she did have straight hair, a wide face, high cheekbones, and a strong jaw. The legend was born! Indian ancestors in Pennsylvania Dutch country were imagined, and it was the regular topic of family conversation. My mother took the belief to her grave. I managed to put a damper on the stories when my DNA test came back finding that I was almost entirely Teutonic, with a bit of the British isles thrown in but with no trace of New World stuff.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Born in northern Ohio around 1888, she actually looked Indian"

    So your German grandmother looked Indian. She is either a very exotic German or in your neck of the woods everybody who does not look like they came straight out of Sweden is Indian looking to locals eyes. You must live in a very blond area of Northern Ohio.

  94. @Giant Duck

    Look at Hawaii – they are multi-racial with almost no blacks and reasonably free of racial conflict.
     
    LOL. Have you ever been there? The place is seething with racial conflict.

    Case in point- here’s an article about the discrimination that Micronesians face in Hawaii:

    https://www.google.com/amp/amp.civilbeat.org/2011/06/no-aloha-for-micronesians-in-hawaii/

    I imagine most mainland Americans probably couldn’t tell the difference between a native Hawaiian and a Micronesian. But those Hawaiians sure can tell.

  95. @anon

    Current Year people tend to assume that the stigma associated with being part black applied to other races, but that’s not at all indisputable.
     
    Of course people are proud of their Indian blood. The world isn't divided into People of Color vs. Whites. The world is divided into People Who Aren't Black vs. Blacks.
    Look at Hawaii - they are multi-racial with almost no blacks and reasonably free of racial conflict.
    Never let someone use the phrase People of Color without challenging it. The category that counts is People Who Aren't Black.

    Lol. That’s a howler, haole.

  96. @Jefferson
    Are Oklahoma Whites on average less blond/Nordic looking than other Flyover Country Whites if there was so much racial miscegenation between Whites and Amerindians there?

    Are Oklahoman Whites on average as dark haired as New York/New Jersey/Connecticut/Rhode Island/Massachusetts Whites with it's heavy immigration of Portuguese, Jews, Italians, and Greeks.

    I think you tend to get in Oklahoma situations like Sam Bradford’s parents. His mother looks very Northwestern European and his dad mostly does too, except for a hint around the eyes. Sam, however, is pretty dark and pretty Indian looking. (I doubt it’s a John Redcorn-type thing. Sam’s huge dad played for the OU Sooners on the offensive line, so any John Redcorn lurking about would have to be pretty brave even for a brave.)

  97. @Desiderius
    Pretty sure Rousseau predates Twain.

    irrelevant

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    even in his day romanticizing the noble savage was beginning to to go on
     
    https://www.britannica.com/art/noble-savage
  98. @Desiderius
    Wonder if the pirate is Lord Hamilton?

    The wife looks Spanish, presumably that’s her coat of arms? Castillo?

  99. @Ol' Fogey
    I watched Liz Warren’s current campaign video with her family all sure that so-and-so was most certainly Indian, etc., and was reminded of how family lore can so readily replace reality. My dear maternal grandmother was once suspected of having American Indian blood but only when she was about age 60. Born in northern Ohio around 1888, she actually looked Indian but nobody mentioned it until she went to visit her daughter (my mother) in Arizona immediately after WWII. That was when people began to remark that she looked like many of the locals. Over a native jewelry counter, a tribal lady pointed to her and said, “You’re Indian!” Indeed, she did have straight hair, a wide face, high cheekbones, and a strong jaw. The legend was born! Indian ancestors in Pennsylvania Dutch country were imagined, and it was the regular topic of family conversation. My mother took the belief to her grave. I managed to put a damper on the stories when my DNA test came back finding that I was almost entirely Teutonic, with a bit of the British isles thrown in but with no trace of New World stuff.

    “Born in northern Ohio around 1888, she actually looked Indian”

    So your German grandmother looked Indian. She is either a very exotic German or in your neck of the woods everybody who does not look like they came straight out of Sweden is Indian looking to locals eyes. You must live in a very blond area of Northern Ohio.

    • Replies: @Ol' Fogey
    I have no idea what you are talking about and probably don't either.
  100. Anonymous[527] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jimi
    I suspect initially Warren may have played up this fake Cherokee identity for social standing rather than affirmative action benefits.

    As a white Oklahoman she must have faced a lot of snobbery from her fellow New England academics. Becoming Native American woman must have been a way for her to boost her social standing. I don't think she expected to get affirmative action benefits when she started lying about her identity.

    It’s really odd how it’s socially acceptable to be transracial in some ways- such as a million whites telling others they are Indians without the slightest evidence, yet Dolezal got run through the ringer for it. Maybe it’s because it’s more common to be claimed than white -black or maybe people are used to seeing those with no perceived differences from whites who are “Indians” by 1/16 blood or something like that whereas someone with black blood will typically be black enough to notice it.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    It’s because the Dolezals are fundies. In other words, it’s about class.
  101. @William Badwhite
    Merle was born in California (outskirts of Bakersfield). Though his parents were Okies, so definitely had a cultural claim on OK.

    Bakersfield might as well be in Oklahoma. Maybe instead of breaking up California Oklahoma could just extend the panhandle out to the inland empire up to Fresno.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Which is why Bakersfield rivaled Nashville as the country music capital for several years. Country and Western swing bands used it as their home base. That was also a big reason Leo Fender had ready access to these people. They’d swing through and Leo would give them stuff to try out. Fender listened to what they said. Other companies made guitars and guitar amplifiers, but Fender’s worked better.
  102. @Anonymous
    irrelevant

    even in his day romanticizing the noble savage was beginning to to go on

    https://www.britannica.com/art/noble-savage

  103. @Sarah Toga

    I get the impression from looking at lists of famous Oklahomans that Oklahomans, for better or worse, tend to be more American than you or I could ever hope to be.
     
    Every county in Oklahoma voted majority Trump, that map is redder than the native red clay:
    https://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/oklahoma/

    If memory serves, in both 2008 and 2012, every county in Oklahoma voted majority GOP.

    Oklahoma is way more Conservative than it’s Southern neighbor Texas and that’s because Mexicans have not demographically overtaken Oklahoma.

    • Replies: @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    We do have a lot of Mexicans, but most don't give a damn about politics. In rural Oklahoma, they tend to become rednecks pretty quickly.

    It is very common to hear a person of Mexican descent in rural Oklahoma speaking with a thick Okie accent and then switching to Spanish 10 minutes later.
  104. @Jefferson
    Oklahoma is way more Conservative than it's Southern neighbor Texas and that's because Mexicans have not demographically overtaken Oklahoma.

    We do have a lot of Mexicans, but most don’t give a damn about politics. In rural Oklahoma, they tend to become rednecks pretty quickly.

    It is very common to hear a person of Mexican descent in rural Oklahoma speaking with a thick Okie accent and then switching to Spanish 10 minutes later.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "We do have a lot of Mexicans"

    But not enough Mexicans to make Oklahoma a competitive state for The Democratic Party in presidential elections.

    Oklahoma is Redder than the sea that Moses split to free his people . Texas is no longer super Red, it's becoming Purple like Florida and eventually will turn full blown Blue like California.
  105. Random observations: Could the relatively low levels of Native American admixture among white Americans be due to the extremely violent relations between white settlers and Natives in early American history? I mean, historical accounts are pretty gruesome…

    The first Native American Miss America was way back in 1926, so implications of how having Native American ancestors would be perceived back in the bad old days are pretty obvious.

  106. @WJ
    Flight from white is big in Oklahoma where 1/128th can get you a card and all sorts of freebies and yet still vote GOP.

    In 2007 the Cherokees e voted to evict the Freedmens as members thus removing all benefits. The Freemen were descendants of slaves that the Cherokees owned pre Civil war. A judge overturned that election last year and their status has been returned.

    Their casinos are a blight on the state. They have sucked billions from people that can't afford it.

    “Their casinos are a blight on the state. They have sucked billions from people that can’t afford it.”

    Agree, they are a blight on the state. By why should Las Vegas and the state of Nevada have no competition for the money of suckers? We Texans have resisted mightily the construction of casinos in our state, but many complain about all the Texans going to nearby Oklahoma and Louisiana giving their money away and not keeping it in Texas.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    why should Las Vegas and the state of Nevada have no competition for the money of suckers?

     

    Its a race to the bottom. Casinos and lotteries are "a tax on people who are bad at math" (attribution to...someone besides myself). It is cynical and short-sighted for states to use them as a revenue source. Low IQ people ruined by gambling and throwing money away on the lottery end up being wards of the state. Encouraging people to have a get-rich-quick-mentality is shameful.
  107. @Anonymous
    It’s really odd how it’s socially acceptable to be transracial in some ways- such as a million whites telling others they are Indians without the slightest evidence, yet Dolezal got run through the ringer for it. Maybe it’s because it’s more common to be claimed than white -black or maybe people are used to seeing those with no perceived differences from whites who are “Indians” by 1/16 blood or something like that whereas someone with black blood will typically be black enough to notice it.

    It’s because the Dolezals are fundies. In other words, it’s about class.

  108. @ThreeCranes
    Americans in the past--even in Norman Rockwell's 1950's!--weren't so hung up on Indian ancestry as liberals try (mightily) to put over on us....


    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iRvQpYZ2Z5k/Td-HFa7-PfI/AAAAAAAAPdQ/qYP1MSmdO-E/s1600/familytree_Norman_Rockwell.jpg

    I remember an old episode of Leave it to Beaver where the Beaver is desperate for it to rain for some reason and remembers how one of his classmates kept claiming that she was part Indian. So he deicides to consult her father, a judge, to see if he can do a rain dance. The girl’s father is quite amused by Beaver’s request but responds that the only Indian on his family tree was his Great-grandfather (making him 1/8th) and that since he made his money in Oklahoma oil, he didn’t care whether it rained or not. So small amounts of Amerindian DNA never carried a stigma in pre late-1960s America, If anything they carried a certain romance for people.

  109. @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    We do have a lot of Mexicans, but most don't give a damn about politics. In rural Oklahoma, they tend to become rednecks pretty quickly.

    It is very common to hear a person of Mexican descent in rural Oklahoma speaking with a thick Okie accent and then switching to Spanish 10 minutes later.

    “We do have a lot of Mexicans”

    But not enough Mexicans to make Oklahoma a competitive state for The Democratic Party in presidential elections.

    Oklahoma is Redder than the sea that Moses split to free his people . Texas is no longer super Red, it’s becoming Purple like Florida and eventually will turn full blown Blue like California.

    • Replies: @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    That is true. South Oklahoma City is now "little Mexico," but they are mostly illegal and there doesn't seem to be much of a push by anyone to organize the area into a political block.

    Texas has people of Mexican descent going back many generations. Historically, they have taken great pride in being Texans. The Democratic Party has had success recently convincing a lot of them that they have more power identifying as Mexicans rather than Texans.

    The divide and conquer strategy of the Dems seems to be bearing fruit in Texas.
  110. Ralph Blane, credited along with Hugh Martin for the songs in Meet Me In St Louis, was from Oklahoma. They had a sort of Lennon-and-McCartney deal where they’d write whole songs individually, then publish them together.

    After Blane died, Martin claimed that after their first year or so together, Blane didn’t hold up his end of the bargain, and everything, including “Trolley Song” and “Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas”, were his alone. Interestingly, Alec Wilder in his 1970 book had a subchapter on Martin alone.

    Martin says he doesn’t know why he let Blane get away with this, but my suspicion is that Martin was a lifelong closet case. Or, more charitably, a low-key, good-taste case of someone born (in Alabama) in 1914.

    However, Jimmy Webb and Lee Hazlewood, also Oklahomans, were the real thing.

  111. @William Badwhite
    Merle was born in California (outskirts of Bakersfield). Though his parents were Okies, so definitely had a cultural claim on OK.

    Merle was born in California (outskirts of Bakersfield). Though his parents were Okies, so definitely had a cultural claim on OK.

    So do Ron and Clint Howard, whose father Rance was an Okie as well.

  112. @Jefferson
    Are Oklahoma Whites on average less blond/Nordic looking than other Flyover Country Whites if there was so much racial miscegenation between Whites and Amerindians there?

    Are Oklahoman Whites on average as dark haired as New York/New Jersey/Connecticut/Rhode Island/Massachusetts Whites with it's heavy immigration of Portuguese, Jews, Italians, and Greeks.

    Having married an Oklahoman and subsequently spending a lot of time there one of he most supervising things in first noticed was the large amount of blonde and red haired families with tribal license plates. I would say highness it as blonde as people from the heavily Germanic states you would not notice a huge difference in the appearance of Oklahoma whites vs other flyover whites.

    Another throng I noticed is that the part Indian whites are completely assimilated intongreater white society with no prejudice, while full blood Indians are perceived far differently.

  113. @MSNBC
    I always assumed that Jim Plunkett was mostly Native American from his darker complexion. A Wiki search shows “Mexican” with family from New Mexico and one parent may have had “Native American” blood.

    So I guess they discern if you’re Latino-Native American vs. just pure US-based Tribe Native American. The “Latino-Native American” may be more like a Brazilian continuity thing, versus a “1/1024th” thing for “US-based Tribe Native American.”

    I’d also assume Tony Romo may have Latino-Native American from his father’s “Mexican” side.

    Romo’s father is Filipino.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Roman Gabriel - also Filipino
  114. Anonymous[217] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius
    Bakersfield might as well be in Oklahoma. Maybe instead of breaking up California Oklahoma could just extend the panhandle out to the inland empire up to Fresno.

    Which is why Bakersfield rivaled Nashville as the country music capital for several years. Country and Western swing bands used it as their home base. That was also a big reason Leo Fender had ready access to these people. They’d swing through and Leo would give them stuff to try out. Fender listened to what they said. Other companies made guitars and guitar amplifiers, but Fender’s worked better.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Guitar amplifiers are a weird thing in that literally no one with any formal engineering skills understood what it was that guitar players actually wanted from an amplifier (besides that it not blow up) until very late in the game so to speak. Engineers labored under the idea that players wanted a "good" amplifier that gave a pure tone when in fact no one wanted that: they wanted EQ, compression and distortion, but very specific amounts of all three and in a specific order.

    Even the "not blow up" part was difficult for makers to get. Gibson, for instance, used the latest innovative circuits and tubes in many of its designs, but the internal construction of them looked like something out of an ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook except not even that good. Fender amps look like a military or test equipment build-not Vollum era Tek scope grade, but serviceable, with parts mostly on tagboards. They were entertainment grade parts, but Fender knew which ones to pick and which to eschew. (McIntosh did likewise, using innovative design and low build cost to stay in business where rival Marantz went broke decades earlier.)

    Fender amps (and the early Marshalls which are Fender clones) are still the standard of the guitar industry, with dozens of "boutique" makers and thousands of DIY hobbyists still copying the basic tweed and blackface/brownface Fender circuits. Players may experiment with exotic Matchless, Rivera, Soldano, or (usually copies of ) tweako Dumble or Trainwreck amps, but they seem always to wind up going back to the Fenders.
  115. @Seth Largo
    I've been amused (but not surprised) that the Cherokees being wheeled out to speak against Warren are themselves very white. Like Two Spirit Rebecca Nagle:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUvyy69VMAAMfBg.jpg

    By the way, Warren is not the only white person trading on Native ancestry in academia, I assure you.

    Go sail away with Bogie and Bacall.

  116. It’s a complicated question whether there was more stigma or glamor associated with being somewhat American Indian by ancestry in the past. Current Year people tend to assume that the stigma associated with being part black applied to other races, but that’s not at all indisputable.

    A grandson of Chang Bunker (One half of Chang and Eng, the original Siamese Twins) was a general during WW2:

    Caleb Vance Haynes (March 15, 1895 – April 5, 1966) was a United States Air Force (USAF) major general.[1] The grandson of Chang Bunker, a famous Siamese Twin, he served in the Air Force as an organizer, able to create air units from scratch. He commanded a large number of groups, squadrons and task forces before, during and after World War II.[2]

    He was born in Dobson, the county seat of Surry County, North Carolina, on March 15, 1895 to Caleb Hill Haynes, Jr. and Margaret Elizabeth “Lizzie” Bunker.[1] The couple produced five daughters and four sons — Caleb Vance Haynes was the fourth child and the second son. At the time of his birth, his father was the Surry County, North Carolina Registrar of Deeds. The father continued to rise in North Carolina Democratic Party politics, serving as one of the delegates to the Democratic National Convention in 1912. A Mason, Caleb Hill Haynes, Jr. was the county sheriff for twenty years following which he was elected to the North Carolina General Assembly in 1931.[6]

    On his mother’s side, Caleb Vance Haynes had Thai and Chinese ancestors through his grandfather Chang Bunker, one of the original Siamese Twins.[1] The conjoined twins married sisters, with Chang Bunker marrying Adelaide Yates. The couple produced seven daughters and three sons, and lived west of Mount Airy, North Carolina.[1] Three of their Anglo-Chinese offspring, including Lizzie Bunker, Haynes’s mother, married into the local Haynes clan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caleb_V._Haynes

  117. @Tiny Duck
    The truth is that white men stole everything and are FINALLY being talked about being brought to justice. That is what all this anxiety is about

    Warrens ancestry is a moot point. I don't think she will beat Kamala Harris. Trump is not long for this world and will be impeached after the Blue Wave midterms

    you shouldn’t LOL at TinyDuck, SarahToga…it often has profound insights:

    it’s true that Pocahontas has no real political future; and the dems 2020 nominee will probably be Kamala Harris, who is a Hindoo.

    and Trump, impeached or not, will probably have to withdraw from the 2020 set-up due to health reasons; to be replaced by Nikki Haley….

    leading to an all-Hindoo Prez race

  118. Sequoia’s invention was the Cherokee syllabary, not an alphabet. Great column, otherwise. On another note, your Dodgers are looking pretty good.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    All of a sudden.

    They've managed to win two straight games without hitting any homers, which must be rare for them.

    They had a really bad record during the regular season of winning close games, winning mostly when they clubbed the opposition into submission with homers: the Dodgers have a ridiculous number of potentially above average hitters, but if they don't hit homers in a given game, they often manage to blow it. Until the 13th inning last night, the Dodgers weren't known for manufacturing runs.

    But they have the talent to be one of the 3 top teams in baseball, along with Boston and Houston in the AL.

  119. @Paleoconn
    Sequoia's invention was the Cherokee syllabary, not an alphabet. Great column, otherwise. On another note, your Dodgers are looking pretty good.

    All of a sudden.

    They’ve managed to win two straight games without hitting any homers, which must be rare for them.

    They had a really bad record during the regular season of winning close games, winning mostly when they clubbed the opposition into submission with homers: the Dodgers have a ridiculous number of potentially above average hitters, but if they don’t hit homers in a given game, they often manage to blow it. Until the 13th inning last night, the Dodgers weren’t known for manufacturing runs.

    But they have the talent to be one of the 3 top teams in baseball, along with Boston and Houston in the AL.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Houston; AL? Bah. The 1993 Phillies swept Houston in the season opening series that year and went on to win almost a hundred games. It was the best baseball season of my life. Right up until Joe Carter jacked one to win the World Series. I won’t hear a word said against Mitch Williams though; he was a true closer, All or nothing.
    Now, I haven’t watched a game in years.
  120. @Digital Samizdat
    If memory serves, Oklahoma license plates used to say 'Native America'.

    Digital Samizdat:

    In addition to Native America, Visit and Is OK! have also served as Oklahoma license plate slogans. The latter is the one that sticks out in my memory.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    The Land of Ah's...
    , @Digital Samizdat
    Yeah, I remember seeing the OK license plate, too.
  121. @Jefferson
    "We do have a lot of Mexicans"

    But not enough Mexicans to make Oklahoma a competitive state for The Democratic Party in presidential elections.

    Oklahoma is Redder than the sea that Moses split to free his people . Texas is no longer super Red, it's becoming Purple like Florida and eventually will turn full blown Blue like California.

    That is true. South Oklahoma City is now “little Mexico,” but they are mostly illegal and there doesn’t seem to be much of a push by anyone to organize the area into a political block.

    Texas has people of Mexican descent going back many generations. Historically, they have taken great pride in being Texans. The Democratic Party has had success recently convincing a lot of them that they have more power identifying as Mexicans rather than Texans.

    The divide and conquer strategy of the Dems seems to be bearing fruit in Texas.

  122. @Hibernian
    Romo's father is Filipino.

    Roman Gabriel – also Filipino

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A whole bunch of diverse QBs on the West Coast 40 to 50 years ago:

    Roman Gabriel - half Filipino
    Sonny Sixkiller - Indian
    Jack Thompson - The Throwin' Samoan
    Samoa Samoa
    Jim Plunkett -- Mexican American and Indian
    Jimmy Jones -- black
    James Harris -- black
    Warren Moon -- black

    Joe Kapp at Berkeley was before my time. I vaguely recall him as part either Mexican or Indian.

    My impression is that both Mexicans and Native Americans aren't as good athletes as they used to be.

  123. @Steve Sailer
    All of a sudden.

    They've managed to win two straight games without hitting any homers, which must be rare for them.

    They had a really bad record during the regular season of winning close games, winning mostly when they clubbed the opposition into submission with homers: the Dodgers have a ridiculous number of potentially above average hitters, but if they don't hit homers in a given game, they often manage to blow it. Until the 13th inning last night, the Dodgers weren't known for manufacturing runs.

    But they have the talent to be one of the 3 top teams in baseball, along with Boston and Houston in the AL.

    Houston; AL? Bah. The 1993 Phillies swept Houston in the season opening series that year and went on to win almost a hundred games. It was the best baseball season of my life. Right up until Joe Carter jacked one to win the World Series. I won’t hear a word said against Mitch Williams though; he was a true closer, All or nothing.
    Now, I haven’t watched a game in years.

  124. @JMcG
    Roman Gabriel - also Filipino

    A whole bunch of diverse QBs on the West Coast 40 to 50 years ago:

    Roman Gabriel – half Filipino
    Sonny Sixkiller – Indian
    Jack Thompson – The Throwin’ Samoan
    Samoa Samoa
    Jim Plunkett — Mexican American and Indian
    Jimmy Jones — black
    James Harris — black
    Warren Moon — black

    Joe Kapp at Berkeley was before my time. I vaguely recall him as part either Mexican or Indian.

    My impression is that both Mexicans and Native Americans aren’t as good athletes as they used to be.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    The bar is a lot higher now.
  125. @Dan Hayes
    Digital Samizdat:

    In addition to Native America, Visit and Is OK! have also served as Oklahoma license plate slogans. The latter is the one that sticks out in my memory.

    The Land of Ah’s…

  126. @Jefferson
    Are Oklahoma Whites on average less blond/Nordic looking than other Flyover Country Whites if there was so much racial miscegenation between Whites and Amerindians there?

    Are Oklahoman Whites on average as dark haired as New York/New Jersey/Connecticut/Rhode Island/Massachusetts Whites with it's heavy immigration of Portuguese, Jews, Italians, and Greeks.

    Oklahomans are almost as blond as Midwesterners. The only part of flyover country that’s almost as dark haired as the Northeast is the Deep South (don’t be fooled by the hair dye look at the males). Yet there are fewer stories of Indian ancestors there relative to say, Appalachia.

  127. @Millennial
    Cooper didn't favor Indians completely, but he idealized the colonial frontier and believed that Europeans were responsible for ruining that ideal "state of nature." So, his hero is a white man who has largely embraced Indian culture.

    To some extent Last of the Mohicans is about mocking racialist ideas. Natty's skills, therefore, have nothing to do with his race. For similar reasons it is heavily implied (I don't recall if stated explicitly) that Colonel Munro's daughters were the offspring of an Afro-Caribbean mother.

    Only one of them, the dark haired one. The other was a blond. The two girls had different mothers.

  128. @Jefferson
    "Generally speaking, anything less than 1/8 (12.5%) doesn’t change your appearance enough that you can’t “pass” or identify as white. This is especially true for N. American Indians who didn’t look that different from Southern Europeans to begin with."

    Artie Lange has way more than 12.5% Amerindian ancestry. His DNA results revealed that he is 25% Amerindian yet phenotype wise he still looks like a Guinea.


    Yet despite Artie Lange being a gazillion times more Amerindian than Elizabeth Warren, he still does not identify as an Oppressed Person Of Color.

    According to the Wiki, Lange found this out in 2003, which is the dark ages for DNA testing. That’s probably around the time that Larry David “learned” that he was 30% Amerind (actual % = 0).

  129. @Benjaminl
    I'd also like to note that Native American last names like "Sixkiller" are extremely impressive, at least to young boys.

    I don't know what it means, but I assume it means that one of Sonny's ancestors killed six people. I.e. don't mess with Sonny.

    Could also be one used or owned a Colt pistol or repeating rifle. A “six-gun”, in Indian language and naming conventions could easily have been “six-killer”

  130. @Jefferson
    "Born in northern Ohio around 1888, she actually looked Indian"

    So your German grandmother looked Indian. She is either a very exotic German or in your neck of the woods everybody who does not look like they came straight out of Sweden is Indian looking to locals eyes. You must live in a very blond area of Northern Ohio.

    I have no idea what you are talking about and probably don’t either.

  131. @anonymous
    Well, maybe he wanted to be. If someone self-identities as a Connecticut WASP, who are you to reject their lived truth, bigot?


    Tony Curtis did a funny and very respectful introduction to Cary Grant for TCM. He said something like "Growing up, I didn't know anyone like Cary Grant--I didn't even know someone like Cary Grant could *possibly* exist. I wanted to look like him, sound like him, be him. When I finally got to the point where someone asked me what kind of movie I wanted to do, I immediately said, "a Service picture with Cary Grant."

    *Curtis enlisted in the United States Navy after the attack on Pearl Harbor and war was declared. Inspired by Cary Grant's role in Destination Tokyo and Tyrone Power's in Crash Dive (1943), he joined the Pacific submarine force.[11] Curtis served aboard a submarine tender, the USS Proteus, until the end of the Second World War. On September 2, 1945, Curtis witnessed the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay from his ship's signal bridge about a mile away.

    Proteus was one of the two tenders at Point Loma when I was stationed there. Was famous for how it was still a WW2 ship in service. Decommed in the early 90s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Proteus_(AS-19)

  132. Anonymous[221] • Disclaimer says:

    When I was at McKinsey, I had a teammate who had grown up a sharecropper in OK. (Do they still have that?) Told me stories of how she would hold the chicken on the block while her brother chopped the head off with an axe. (Chickens were no big deal but she loved the cow…when it went away and there was meat the next day, her family told her they had traded with another farm…) Just remember having another teammate who was a good old boy from NC (or styled himself so, had a strong accent). But he was upper middle class, had gone to University of Richmond, then Harvard Law, then clerking for a Federal judge. The Okie gal had gone to a bible college and somehow wandered around before popping into the screening process and making it through. Remember her telling him… “you’re not a redneck. I know what a redneck is.”)

  133. Ive realized recently that the way out of multiculturalism is actually the American Indian.

    In a recent nytimes book review podcast, a Harvard history professor admitted that after WWII, the history of native Americans was deliberately downplayed.

    In contrast, the history of black Africans was emphasized.

    If we could go back to emphasizing the history of native Americans instead of the current year making American history mostly about black slaves, then many positive things start happening.

    Emphasizing black slavery just makes people angry and resentful. Emphasizing native American history is a better aesthetic. It is outdoorsy and healthy. And many old line settler families do claim some native American ancestry. Warren does which is a trait of the white population in the Midwest.

  134. Anonymous[896] • Disclaimer says:

    Strangely enough, the 23 and Me algorithm commonly assigns a smidgen of ‘Amerindian’ DNA, generally ’0.1%’ to persons of indigenous central and eastern European ancestry.

    Apparently, this due to shared ‘Ancestral North Eurasian’ ancestry, as expressed in the Yamanya Steppe invaders of Europe, the last common link being in the Siberia of 40,000 years ago. The DNA is sensitive enough to pick up this ancient and tenuous connection.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Y DNA haplogroup 'Q' - perhaps the quintessential authentic Amerindian marker, is also found sporadically in individuals of pure European descent, further implying that ancient and tenuous connection.
  135. @Steve Sailer
    A whole bunch of diverse QBs on the West Coast 40 to 50 years ago:

    Roman Gabriel - half Filipino
    Sonny Sixkiller - Indian
    Jack Thompson - The Throwin' Samoan
    Samoa Samoa
    Jim Plunkett -- Mexican American and Indian
    Jimmy Jones -- black
    James Harris -- black
    Warren Moon -- black

    Joe Kapp at Berkeley was before my time. I vaguely recall him as part either Mexican or Indian.

    My impression is that both Mexicans and Native Americans aren't as good athletes as they used to be.

    The bar is a lot higher now.

  136. @Anonymous
    Strangely enough, the 23 and Me algorithm commonly assigns a smidgen of 'Amerindian' DNA, generally '0.1%' to persons of indigenous central and eastern European ancestry.

    Apparently, this due to shared 'Ancestral North Eurasian' ancestry, as expressed in the Yamanya Steppe invaders of Europe, the last common link being in the Siberia of 40,000 years ago. The DNA is sensitive enough to pick up this ancient and tenuous connection.

    Y DNA haplogroup ‘Q’ – perhaps the quintessential authentic Amerindian marker, is also found sporadically in individuals of pure European descent, further implying that ancient and tenuous connection.

  137. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Which is why Bakersfield rivaled Nashville as the country music capital for several years. Country and Western swing bands used it as their home base. That was also a big reason Leo Fender had ready access to these people. They’d swing through and Leo would give them stuff to try out. Fender listened to what they said. Other companies made guitars and guitar amplifiers, but Fender’s worked better.

    Guitar amplifiers are a weird thing in that literally no one with any formal engineering skills understood what it was that guitar players actually wanted from an amplifier (besides that it not blow up) until very late in the game so to speak. Engineers labored under the idea that players wanted a “good” amplifier that gave a pure tone when in fact no one wanted that: they wanted EQ, compression and distortion, but very specific amounts of all three and in a specific order.

    Even the “not blow up” part was difficult for makers to get. Gibson, for instance, used the latest innovative circuits and tubes in many of its designs, but the internal construction of them looked like something out of an ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook except not even that good. Fender amps look like a military or test equipment build-not Vollum era Tek scope grade, but serviceable, with parts mostly on tagboards. They were entertainment grade parts, but Fender knew which ones to pick and which to eschew. (McIntosh did likewise, using innovative design and low build cost to stay in business where rival Marantz went broke decades earlier.)

    Fender amps (and the early Marshalls which are Fender clones) are still the standard of the guitar industry, with dozens of “boutique” makers and thousands of DIY hobbyists still copying the basic tweed and blackface/brownface Fender circuits. Players may experiment with exotic Matchless, Rivera, Soldano, or (usually copies of ) tweako Dumble or Trainwreck amps, but they seem always to wind up going back to the Fenders.

  138. @Simply Simon
    "Their casinos are a blight on the state. They have sucked billions from people that can't afford it."

    Agree, they are a blight on the state. By why should Las Vegas and the state of Nevada have no competition for the money of suckers? We Texans have resisted mightily the construction of casinos in our state, but many complain about all the Texans going to nearby Oklahoma and Louisiana giving their money away and not keeping it in Texas.

    why should Las Vegas and the state of Nevada have no competition for the money of suckers?

    Its a race to the bottom. Casinos and lotteries are “a tax on people who are bad at math” (attribution to…someone besides myself). It is cynical and short-sighted for states to use them as a revenue source. Low IQ people ruined by gambling and throwing money away on the lottery end up being wards of the state. Encouraging people to have a get-rich-quick-mentality is shameful.

  139. Another quintessentially American Okie: cowboy, rodeo champ, and eventual Oscar-winning actor Ben Johnson, by all accounts a wonderfully down-to-earth fellow with an extremely non-Hollywood temperament, who nevertheless managed to work for temperamental nutcases like John Ford and Sam Peckinpah. He was supposedly part-Cherokee as well; given his utterly unpretentious personality, it’s hard to imagine him making that up, and his rather squinty eyes and dark hair make it easy to believe.

  140. One thing to note is that in the South in the Bad Old Days, light skinned blacks who could pass, would often claim indian heritage to avoid more derogatory inferences.

  141. Aside from my years serving in the USAF, I’ve lived in Oklahoma my entire life. Your observations about Oklahoma and the almost symbiotic relationship between the tribes who were dumped here over the course of the 19th century and the whites who both pioneered here (the rougher, if braver, sort) and those who just showed up to collect free land (the more typical sort) are spot-on.

    Though whether we’re “more American” is open to debate – that’s laying it on a bit thick – what we indisputably are is this odd, *uniquely* American place where the Left’s Right Side of History tidy narratives simply fall apart.

    Indeed, Oklahoma is an iSteve laboratory demonstration before iSteve analysis was a thing in our current, collective Orwellian sissy-fit Leftist atmosphere: a poor, often physically harsh place, where diversity was dominant before Diversity was cool, in the early-20th century style that simply accepted the facts as they were on the ground, with no one’s eye’s lying to them. Lots of oil under the ground, so fantastic mineral wealth with the recurrent booms-and-busts, and the kind of people that that kind of hitting-the-lottery style wealth attracts, from top to bottom; and the Reservations, in the background of it all. And their descendants. And all of us together, growling about Texas.

    You nailed it!

  142. @Dan Hayes
    Digital Samizdat:

    In addition to Native America, Visit and Is OK! have also served as Oklahoma license plate slogans. The latter is the one that sticks out in my memory.

    Yeah, I remember seeing the OK license plate, too.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes

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