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From the New York Times:

EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE

Tech’s Damaging Myth of the Loner Genius Nerd

By CLAIRE CAIN MILLER

In truth, interpersonal skills like collaboration, communication and empathy are vital to career success in technology.

As I’ve noted several times on iSteve over the last few years, NYT “reporter” Claire Cain Miller has been chief propagandist in the scramble to loot Silicon Valley in the name of feminism.

One irony is that many of the SJW adventuresses and whiners championed by Ms. Miller, such as her heroine Ellen Pao, have terrible personalities: self-absorbed, resentful, and greedy.

 
    []
  1. anon says: • Disclaimer

    “Computer programming was originally considered a woman’s job. They were programmers of the Eniac during World War II and at NASA, as shown in the film “Hidden Figures.” That began to change when programming professionalized in the 1960s. The stereotype of an eccentric genius who would rather work with machines than people was born, according to Nathan Ensmenger, a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry.”

    For the men who created the ENIAC, it was natural to get the female computers to convert to code the computations that for decades they had been doing by hand. Women were’t pioneers of programming.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Langley
    My mentor, Raymond Cattell, had pieces of the ENIAC in his home in Hawaii Kai. He had used it for factor analyzing personality traits.

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=Raymond+Cattelle&pc=MOZI&form=MOZCON

    He also did research on intelligence and race. He found what we all know.

    In 1997 the APA chose him for their Gold Medal Award for Lifetime Achievement in the Science of Psychology.

    His research and conclusions were deemed to be inappropriate by Barry Mehler who started a campaign to discredit him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Mehler

    The award was withdrawn weeks before Ray was to fly to the mainland to receive it. He died soon after.
    , @Stebbing Heuer
    I vaguely remember a song from the eighties about these women. The chorus went:

    She's an ENIAC, ENIAC programmer,
    And she's coding like she's ne'er coded before.
     
    (I confess I may have misremembered the lyrics.)
    , @Forbes

    a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry
     
    Sounds like the definition of a specialist: Someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing.
    , @International Jew
    Those ladies weren't engaging in "programming" as we understand it today. Their role was to do what today is done by an automated software component known as the loader.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
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  2. Are you planning on talking about what happened today in Cville or are you just going to bang on about golf courses and how SV is full of hypocrites for the umpteenth time?

    Read More
    • Agree: International Jew
    • Replies: @Bill P
    Who cares about Charlottesville? It's like resurrecting the 1960s. Seen it all before -- total bore.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    You know Steve's blogging style. What iSteve topic/post/headline would you pull out of Charlottesville?
    , @Difference maker
    Was just David Duke and Richard Spencer retards along with Antifa up to their usual antics
    , @Bard of Bumperstickers
    Kinder, gentler, nurturing algorithms, made with love by dedicated girlycoders, would have prevented C'ville's toxic-masculinity testosterstorm.
  3. syonredux says:

    Insanely off-topic,

    I was just re-watching John Ford’s Rio Grande (after Fort Apache, my favorite of Ford’s “Cavalry Trilogy”) and got intrigued by the character of Captain St. Jacques. So, I decided to look up the actor who played him. Holy Cow! What a life:

    Pierre (Peter) Julien Ortiz OBE (July 5, 1913 – May 16, 1988) was a United States Marine Corps colonel who received two Navy Crosses for extraordinary heroism as a major in World War II. He served in both North Africa and Europe throughout the war, as a member of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), operating behind enemy lines several times. He became an American film actor after the war.

    Although born in New York[1] to a Spanish-American mother[2] and French-American[3] father, Ortiz was educated at the University of Grenoble in France.[3] He spoke ten languages, including Spanish, French, German and Arabic.[2]
    On February 1, 1932, at the age of 19, he joined the French Foreign Legion for five years’ service in North Africa.[2][3][4][5] He was sent first to the Legion’s training camp at Sidi Bel-Abbes, Algeria. He later served in Morocco, where he was promoted to corporal in 1933 and sergeant in 1935. He was awarded the Croix de guerre twice during a campaign against the Rif.[3] He also received the Médaille militaire.[5] An acting lieutenant, he was offered a commission as a second lieutenant if he would re-enlist.[5] Instead, when his contract expired in 1937, he went to Hollywood to serve as a technical adviser for war films.[3]
    With the outbreak of World War II and the United States still neutral, he re-enlisted in the Foreign Legion in October 1939 as a sergeant, and received a battlefield commission in May 1940.[5] He was wounded while blowing up a fuel dump[5] and captured by the Germans during the 1940 Battle of France.[3] He escaped the following year via Lisbon and made his way to the United States.[5]
    He enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps on June 22, 1942.[5] As a result of his training and experience, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant after only 40 days in service.[1][3] He was promoted to captain on December 3.[5] With his knowledge of the region, he was sent to Tangier, Morocco.[4] He conducted reconnaissance behind enemy lines in Tunisia for the Office of Strategic Services (OSS).[3][5] At the time, though most of Morocco was a French protectorate, Tangiers was a protectorate of neutral Spain. During a night mission, Ortiz was seriously wounded in the right hand in an encounter with a German patrol and was sent back to the United States to recover.[5]
    In 1943, Ortiz became a member of the OSS. On January 6, 1944, he was dropped by parachute into the Haute-Savoie region of German-occupied France as part of the three-man “Union” mission, with Colonel Pierre Fourcaud of the French secret service and Captain Thackwaite from the British Special Operations Executive, to evaluate the capabilities of the Resistance in the Alpine region.[3][5] He drove four downed RAF pilots to the border of neutral Spain,[3] before leaving France with his team in late May. Promoted to major, Ortiz parachuted back into France on August 1, 1944, this time as the commander of the “Union II” mission.[3][5] He was captured by the Germans on August 16. In April 1945, he and three other prisoners of war escaped while being moved to another camp, but after ten days with little or no food, returned to their old camp after discovering that the prisoners had virtually taken control.[5] On April 29, the camp was liberated.
    He rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel in the Marine Corps Reserve. He was discharged from active duty in 1946 and returned to Hollywood.

    Upon returning to civilian life, Ortiz became an actor.[6] Ortiz appeared in a number of films, several with director John Ford, including Rio Grande, in which he played “Captain St. Jacques”. According to his son, Marine Lieutenant Colonel Peter J. Ortiz, Jr., “My father was an awful actor but he had great fun appearing in movies”.[3] At least two Hollywood films were based upon his personal exploits, 13 Rue Madeleine (1947) and Operation Secret (1952).[1]
    Ortiz died of cancer on May 16, 1988, at the age of 74, and was buried at Arlington National Cemetery. He was survived by his wife Jean and their son Peter J. Ortiz, Jr

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_J._Ortiz

    Read More
  4. Tiny Duck says:

    Just another gasp of a white male losing his privileged position

    What have white males ever created and contributed to society?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    Rather than taking a swing to swat that straight, lazy ball pitched right over the middle of the plate, I offer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo

    "Brough' order!"

    "Righ', 'ey're th' only one who could bring order . . . to a place like this?"

    , @WR
    Tiny, you're displaying disappointing trolling skills today. Anyhow, grab a pencil and take notes.

    Top 10

    1. Cars and planes
    2. Every modern electronic device (cellphones, printers, etc)
    3. Modern medicine, hospitals and all vaccines
    4. Electricity
    5. Colleges and universities
    6. Cars and planes
    7. Modern housing and plumbing
    8. The television, radio, and internet
    9. Air conditioning and central heating
    10. Mass production of Jordans and sugary drinks

    And most important of all. The welfare system and associated goodies!
    , @unpc downunder
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo
  5. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    White Gentiles are expected to have Impersonalities. Any real personality on their part is ‘triggering’.

    So, white gentiles develop impersonalities and just work hard at stuff. Then, they are blamed for lacking real personalities.

    Damned if do, damned if don’t.

    Read More
  6. benjaminl says:

    Speaking of women and personalities…

    For those of us who are totally surrounded by blue-state upper-middle-class professional-elite women, it’s quite educational to see, on Twitter, the cohort of smart, witty women who are really gung-ho about traditional gender roles.

    @AliceTeller
    @FormerlyFormer
    @apurposefulwife

    Kinda makes you realize how much feminism has warped an entire population.

    Read More
  7. @Tiny Duck
    Just another gasp of a white male losing his privileged position

    What have white males ever created and contributed to society?

    Rather than taking a swing to swat that straight, lazy ball pitched right over the middle of the plate, I offer

    “Brough’ order!”

    “Righ’, ‘ey’re th’ only one who could bring order . . . to a place like this?”

    Read More
  8. Langley says:
    @anon
    "Computer programming was originally considered a woman’s job. They were programmers of the Eniac during World War II and at NASA, as shown in the film “Hidden Figures.” That began to change when programming professionalized in the 1960s. The stereotype of an eccentric genius who would rather work with machines than people was born, according to Nathan Ensmenger, a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry."

    For the men who created the ENIAC, it was natural to get the female computers to convert to code the computations that for decades they had been doing by hand. Women were't pioneers of programming.

    My mentor, Raymond Cattell, had pieces of the ENIAC in his home in Hawaii Kai. He had used it for factor analyzing personality traits.

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=Raymond+Cattelle&pc=MOZI&form=MOZCON

    He also did research on intelligence and race. He found what we all know.

    In 1997 the APA chose him for their Gold Medal Award for Lifetime Achievement in the Science of Psychology.

    His research and conclusions were deemed to be inappropriate by Barry Mehler who started a campaign to discredit him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Mehler

    The award was withdrawn weeks before Ray was to fly to the mainland to receive it. He died soon after.

    Read More
  9. SJW’s try to have it both ways: men and women are exactly the same, but supposedly feminine qualities like empathy are more important than masculine qualities

    Read More
    • Replies: @Njguy73
    Men and women are exactly the same, especially women.
    , @prole
    AGREE, Feminists are lacking in logic.

    If women and males have identical traits , abilities and personalities why would adding female tech workers make Google more diverse ? Why do the trans-gendered claim that hormone treatments effect personality and desire ?
    , @Melendwyr
    And it's vitally important that transsexuals be allowed to act in very masculine or feminine ways, but the validity of those concepts is denied when dealing with normal men and women.

    So there differences between men and women are imposed by discrimination and culture, except for transsexuals, who are innately patterned with them.
  10. L Woods says:

    The entry of women into an institution or workplace (barring a strictly demarcated and subordinate role — and perhaps even then) inevitably leads to the prizing of extraneous garbage “skills” such as “collaboration, communication and empathy” over actual talent and ability. This is to say nothing of their predilection to worship at the feet of authority, enforce stifling conformity, scorn the low-status (read: bottom 90% on the sociopathy scale) males that actually make things work, and play “let’s you and him fight” to no end.

    Read More
  11. WR says:

    Miller wants to integrate technology to the pink economy. On June 1st, she wrote another NYT article entitled “How to raise a feminist son.” Who wouldn’t? In that thought-provoking piece, she explained:

    “Men are falling behind in school and work because we are not raising boys to succeed in the new, pink economy. Skills like cooperation, empathy and diligence — often considered to be feminine — are increasingly valued in modern-day work and school, and jobs that require these skills are the fastest-growing.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Njguy73

    Skills like cooperation, empathy and diligence — often considered to be feminine — are increasingly valued in modern-day work and school, and jobs that require these skills are the fastest-growing
     
    https://www.thiswayglobal.com/blog/fastest-growing-jobs-2017/

    Well, one out of seven ain't bad.
    , @Rod1963

    “Men are falling behind in school and work because we are not raising boys to succeed in the new, pink economy. Skills like cooperation, empathy and diligence — often considered to be feminine — are increasingly valued in modern-day work and school, and jobs that require these skills are the fastest-growing.”
     
    Nonsense. Schools are run by females and they don't like boys being boys, the bright boys just tune all the shit some idiot with a teaching degree is telling them, Others get bored and act out. So teacher sends them the the counselor who labels them learning disabled and prescribes Methamphetaminea to calm them down. Kids become zombies and are f**ked for life. Smarter ones take pills and sell them to adults and other kids. They know the teachers are mostly dimwits.

    Look public schooling is straight out unfit for white kids of ever average intelligence. They are PC/MC cesspits who because of lawsuits have to put all kids in the same class. Which ensures the smart and even average kids don't learn much.

    That said, mushy feelings crap didn't get us to the Moon or build the Space Shuttle, it didn't build the Atom bomb, the microwave oven the transistor or microprocessor or a hundred other things in our society.

    Look men can work as teams with no problem and build incredibly sophisticated systems - Boulder Dam comes to mind. The men who built Apollo used slide rules, not multiprocessor Itaniums running bulls**t collaboration software. They weren't in touch with their feelings. They make those engineers at Google, X Space and the other initiatives look like dolts who forgot how to think.

    Feminist son? That's child abuse. Sterilize the mother and father ASAP. Then shut down Yale for graduating idiots and turn it into a pig farm.
  12. Bill P says:
    @Jack Hanson
    Are you planning on talking about what happened today in Cville or are you just going to bang on about golf courses and how SV is full of hypocrites for the umpteenth time?

    Who cares about Charlottesville? It’s like resurrecting the 1960s. Seen it all before — total bore.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Charlottesville is a pretty big deal, actually.

    One school of thought in the alt-right has been "no enemies to the right". That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, etc.

    So a lot of the commentary on the right has been denunciations and distancing.

    But Varad Mehta, because his name is Varad Mehta, doesn't have to bother with that. So, instead, he produced the best tweet storm on it.

    https://twitter.com/varadmehta/status/896499004279750656
    , @Jack Hanson
    We get it. CVille offends your boomer sensibilities, scares you, and so must be verboten.
  13. Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, you get fired. So it’s not accurate to claim they’re totally incompetent. If they’re dumb, the code wouldn’t work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there’s a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It’s supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that’s not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erik L
    It's not either it compiles or it doesn't. And anyway non compilation of code is not the reason most projects fail. The nature of software development allows projects to continue for many years, missing multiple deadlines and ultimately releasing software that only kinda works and only kinda solves a user problem.

    I also see a huge discrepancy - some developers are willing and able to understand real world problems facing customers and think deeply and originally how to take advantage of the power of software to solve those problems. Others just want it laid out "here is what fields the user has to enter on a screen, make them go in a database" and then they turn the crank and make exactly that happen.

    Lots of opportunity for bad developers who don't complain much
    , @Anonymous
    Indians have many endogamous groups and hereditary trades and professions even within those castes. It's not like they just have 4 large classes that mix fairly freely within themselves, which would make them more like most other societies.
    , @candid_observer

    Code either compiles or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, you get fired. So it’s not accurate to claim they’re totally incompetent. If they’re dumb, the code wouldn’t work.
     
    You must never have written any code if you think getting code to compile is the sticking point. And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.
    , @JDG1980
    I'm unaware of anyone who claimed that Indians (the people of the nation of India) have an average IQ of 81. Are you sure they weren't talking about the other type of "Indians" (Native Americans)?

    Also, note that the "India Average" in the cited figures is lower than you'd expect by averaging the four castes together. Presumably, this is because it also includes "untouchables" (I forget what the official PC term is for them), who could potentially average lower scores than the four official castes.

    Vaishyas seem to do the best of all four castes, even though they weren't historically the highest ranking. I googled this and was unsurprised to find that the Vaishyas are the merchant caste - presumably they have above-average median IQ for the same reason as Ashkenazi Jews.
    , @Anon7
    From an earlier iSteve article

    India
    Current IQ

    Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ
    Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ
    Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ
    Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ
    Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ
    Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ
    Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
    Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ
    Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html
    , @Bastion
    "Code either compiles or it doesn't."

    LOL. "It works on my machine." is the excuse of every half-ass developer who ever lived. They are largely incompetent. 20 years ago we were get cheap talent from the right tail of the bell curve for cheap. Those days are long gone. Now, talented developers from the USA (I speak from experience), threaten, cajole, and spoon feed the "talent" from India. Am I a development lead or a kindergarten teacher? some days it's not altogether clear.
    , @Anonymous
    Do you have any data on the average BO quotient? It's gotta be sky high.
    , @jim jones
    Only 36% of Indian Engineers can write code which actually compiles:

    https://www.scribd.com/document/345948744/National-Programming-Skills-Report-Engineers-2017-Report-Brief
    , @Medvedev
    It's not either it compiles or not. A lot harder and trickier, most of the time there is multiple solutions to the same problem with different efficiency/complexity.

    As for the Indians:
    1. They are drawn from a pool of 1.3 billions people, not from a pool of average IQ.
    2. Here are the results of coding competition among high-schoolers:
    http://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2016
    China, Russia, Japan, Poland, Taiwan, Czechia among the top countries. India (1.3 bln) lags behind Bulgaria (7 million). Even with such a huge population Indians are behind if you get highly g-loaded competition (topcoder, codefources, google code jam all dominated by the same countries).
    3. Programming doesn't require you to be some kind of genius and it's sufficient to be relatively smart, unless you are involved in hardcore research. And if it's not the leading tech company or innovative startup the bar might be even lower. Turns out there are a lot sufficiently smart Indians to fill the positions + they are more proficient in English than Chinese or Russians.
    4. Cultural thing, their cultural traits help them to succeed in Western business environment where others will fail. Let me elaborate on this:
    What I learned, all this stuff "free thinking, leadership, thinking outside of the box, independent thinking etc" is a complete BS. If there is architectural question or requirement that doesn't seem right:
    - most Americans are taught to think independently and point to the problem and disagree very politely.
    - Russian guys will disagree and often not in a polite way.
    - EAsian who grew up in America -> look how Americans would react.
    - EAsian who grew up in EAsia -> either disagree politely or try hard and hard and harder.
    - Indian will agree with the boss, promise to do staff, will get a workaround, may not do it efficiently, will do it partially (cause there was a problem to begin with, working on better requirements or design would be better, but boss is more pleased when dev agreed and went on with his idea even though it wasn't 100% successful).
    The implementation may not be in the best interest of the company, but guess who will be rewarded?
    PS don't get the idea that all engineers from certain country are this way. But there are traits that are more prevalent among certain cultures.

    , @AnotherDad

    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.
     
    Such confident cluelessness.

    You've got one data point--one paper, from one guy, from one sample, 50 years ago ... and now you "know" about India's IQ distribution and are shedding your light of knowledge upon us idiot HBDers. Thanks.

    Thought experiment:
    You and I trot into a mid-range, ho-hum high school in Bombay. A range of kids from various jati are there and we can--sort of--toss them into the four or five big caste buckets. I look at those buckets and ... ah the kids in those buckets are +/- reasonably similar in grades and test scores. You cry out, IQ caste stratification does not exist! Indians are all the same! You are a fool.

    The problem, of course, is selection bias. Who is in the high school? How representative are they for their caste group for all of India.

    If we really encountered this scenario, and then I got some more data about performance of this high school relative to all India and started doing a bunch of math, I might come up with model something like this:
    -- Dalits -- 90%tile of Dalits nationwide
    -- Shudra -- 80%
    -- Vaishya -- 40%
    -- Brahmin -- 30%

    The Dalit and Shudra families who got themselves positioned to send their kids to this high school were pretty on the ball and their kids good enough students to merit the effort/expense. The Brahmin and Vaishya kids were pretty ho-hum. Their parents not particularly successful for their caste and their kids not exceptional enough to warrant better.

    Selection bias is a huge factor. It utterly dominates any analysis of immigrants. (Ex. the laughable nonsense from Chanda Chisala.) But it can even be significant for nominally representative samples like the PISA tests depending on just how much how was really done to get a representative sample and how much "special needs" exclusion was done.

  14. WR says:
    @Tiny Duck
    Just another gasp of a white male losing his privileged position

    What have white males ever created and contributed to society?

    Tiny, you’re displaying disappointing trolling skills today. Anyhow, grab a pencil and take notes.

    Top 10

    1. Cars and planes
    2. Every modern electronic device (cellphones, printers, etc)
    3. Modern medicine, hospitals and all vaccines
    4. Electricity
    5. Colleges and universities
    6. Cars and planes
    7. Modern housing and plumbing
    8. The television, radio, and internet
    9. Air conditioning and central heating
    10. Mass production of Jordans and sugary drinks

    And most important of all. The welfare system and associated goodies!

    Read More
  15. Erik L says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    It’s not either it compiles or it doesn’t. And anyway non compilation of code is not the reason most projects fail. The nature of software development allows projects to continue for many years, missing multiple deadlines and ultimately releasing software that only kinda works and only kinda solves a user problem.

    I also see a huge discrepancy – some developers are willing and able to understand real world problems facing customers and think deeply and originally how to take advantage of the power of software to solve those problems. Others just want it laid out “here is what fields the user has to enter on a screen, make them go in a database” and then they turn the crank and make exactly that happen.

    Lots of opportunity for bad developers who don’t complain much

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    I also see a huge discrepancy – some developers are willing and able to understand real world problems facing customers and think deeply and originally how to take advantage of the power of software to solve those problems. Others just want it laid out “here is what fields the user has to enter on a screen, make them go in a database” and then they turn the crank and make exactly that happen.

    Lots of opportunity for bad developers who don’t complain much

     

    True, but it takes a moderate IQ to write even bad code. Even elementary coding isn't simple. If Indians have a mean IQ of 81 or whatever, they shouldn't be able to write that.

    These Indian H1bs are being paid 6 figure salaries. Nobody pays that much to stupid coders.

    https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-Green-Card.aspx?T=CT
  16. Erik L says:

    My reaction to this article is that she is partly or even mostly right about what is needed for most software development. Well, I wouldn’t call it empathy but yes it is far more difficult and important for most projects to understand customer problems and analyze those systematically and translate those into something that can induce the developers to create a good solution.

    It does involve communicating with people who are not in software and understanding what the real problem is. Usually the real problems are not directly stated by the customer.

    So she’s partially right. On the other hand I don’t see how that contradicts that guy’s essay or manifesto or whatever.

    Also I have never noticed women to be particularly superior at this task but I have a pretty small sample size. Should be noted that properly done, these tasks also benefit from that autistic spectrum obsession with categorizing, creating taxonomies, generalizing and so forth

    Read More
    • Replies: @Njguy73

    that autistic spectrum obsession with categorizing, creating taxonomies, generalizing and so forth
     
    Slate was saying good things about this back in 2014.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/03/28/autism_at_work_companies_like_sap_and_freddie_mac_are_hiring_people_with.html
  17. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    Indians have many endogamous groups and hereditary trades and professions even within those castes. It’s not like they just have 4 large classes that mix fairly freely within themselves, which would make them more like most other societies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    For at least 15 years, almost every HBDer has been claiming the Brahmin priest caste were the smartest and that they alone accounted for Indian achievements. That doesn't seem to be the case, according to the data.

    The elite trades and professions clustered within the upper castes. So if there was a strong caste-IQ correlation, that should've shown up in the data.
  18. @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    Code either compiles or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, you get fired. So it’s not accurate to claim they’re totally incompetent. If they’re dumb, the code wouldn’t work.

    You must never have written any code if you think getting code to compile is the sticking point. And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors
    , @Anonym
    While his general point is correct (coding should get you a measurable outcome, within constraints, and it doesn't matter what your feelings are), to his original point 1.34B people at IQ 81 are going to have even 3SD above (e.g. 126 IQ assuming SD of 15 points), 1.34M people to draw on.

    Now, that's assuming there aren't multiple sub-populations of people at different IQ averages and SD, which is what probably exists in India.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.
     
    Really really important code gets JITted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation
  19. Well timed comment Steve. This dovetails with a comment i’ve been meaning to make for a few days.

    I think there’s a lot of folks who make a sort of sloppy association: women==superior social skills==better collaboration.

    [TL;DR -- men are actually better collaborators at scale.]

    Sam Sharma made that argument in a comment a few days back. Yonatan Zunger’s middle point about engineering requiring people skills makes it to. (A quite valid point. I start off my Communications Merit Badge class driving this point home–to do anything of consequence you have to have good communication skills to get other people on board with your program.) Zunger is clever and careful. He keeps on message and always uses quotes around “female” to avoid the implication he believes in biological stereotypes. But the implication is that male nerds will flame out and women will excel do once the scale of the engineering moves out beyond what one guy can do in his office or lab. And in truth there are definitely a lot of nerdy (aspie) guys in tech who are abysmally poor at communication.

    However, this argument really misunderstands women’s superior “social skills”. Where women have the clear advantage is really in “inter-personal” skills–with the accent on the personal. Women are better at skills like reading faces and have more empathy. They really are superior doing things like say child care or nursing. They can probably do very well in sales for the right products. And they are fine managing small groups.

    However, there’s very little evidence–like none–that women are superior *at scale*. That they are better at coordinating and getting everything lined up and everyone marching in the right direction to make some large project work. It simply isn’t the case. Beyond the scale of say the tribal hen circle, women’s “social skills” don’t really scale. The problem is with women … it really is personal.

    In contrast men do scale. They do it by teams, male-bonding and, to scale up, with hierarchy. Men are also better at putting aside the personal for a larger goal. Men can be competing–for status and leadership in a group–but keep that competition from derailing a larger cooperative goal. (E.g. surrounding the intruder tribe’s camp, then rushing in to kill or drive off the men and grab up the women.) In fact throughout history men scaled up to even form alliances with foreign peoples whose languages they don’t speak and customs they don’t like in order to achieve big goals like annihilating a common enemy. Yes, another warfare analogy, but that’s actually what corporate competition is analogous to–mobilizing all your efforts to get your superior product out there to beat your competitor. Then furthermore there’s the issue that large engineering at scale also involves … abstraction at scale. Abstraction–seeing this big picture puzzle of lots of moving pieces–is again something men just tend to be better at. Women prefer the personal and concrete–their project, their people.

    I can prattle on but that’s the gist of it. Women are indeed different than men and superior in inter-personal skills. But the sort of corporate product building thing isn’t really about strong “personal” relationships, it’s about being able to do a bunch of precisely not-very-personal, we-don’t-have-to-hug, collaborations with other people/groups on the basis of mutual interest and the ability to agree on logically/rationally on approaches/interfaces/timetables/procedures to get a larger job done.

    Read More
    • Agree: Frau Katze
    • Replies: @Drake

    But the sort of corporate product building thing isn’t really about strong “personal” relationships, it’s about being able to do a bunch of precisely not-very-personal, we-don’t-have-to-hug, collaborations with other people
     
    This is correct. One thing the people who emphasize the need for communication tend to overlook is that in tech much of the important communication concerns objective facts rather than feelings. And I don't think men, or even introverted aspy types, are deficient when it comes to communicating such facts.

    Documenting code or writing white papers doesn't require the same empathy that writing a Jane Austen novel does.
    , @Frau Katze
    Think how much collaboration was required for something like the Manhattan project!

    It was heavily male.
  20. JDG1980 says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    I’m unaware of anyone who claimed that Indians (the people of the nation of India) have an average IQ of 81. Are you sure they weren’t talking about the other type of “Indians” (Native Americans)?

    Also, note that the “India Average” in the cited figures is lower than you’d expect by averaging the four castes together. Presumably, this is because it also includes “untouchables” (I forget what the official PC term is for them), who could potentially average lower scores than the four official castes.

    Vaishyas seem to do the best of all four castes, even though they weren’t historically the highest ranking. I googled this and was unsurprised to find that the Vaishyas are the merchant caste – presumably they have above-average median IQ for the same reason as Ashkenazi Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    I’m unaware of anyone who claimed that Indians (the people of the nation of India) have an average IQ of 81. Are you sure they weren’t talking about the other type of “Indians” (Native Americans)?
     
    Lynn found a study showing a 81 IQ in India. For years, that number has been repeated on HBD sites. I think it's sort of interesting that an 81 IQ country could succeed in something like software. This 81 IQ country also has satellites, nuclear weapons, and super computers.

    The Brahmins are right around the average.


    I googled this and was unsurprised to find that the Vaishyas are the merchant caste – presumably they have above-average median IQ for the same reason as Ashkenazi Jews.
     
    They found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests. So if the merchant castes did better, likely it's due to wealth.
  21. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Bill P
    Who cares about Charlottesville? It's like resurrecting the 1960s. Seen it all before -- total bore.

    Charlottesville is a pretty big deal, actually.

    One school of thought in the alt-right has been “no enemies to the right”. That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, etc.

    So a lot of the commentary on the right has been denunciations and distancing.

    But Varad Mehta, because his name is Varad Mehta, doesn’t have to bother with that. So, instead, he produced the best tweet storm on it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    It would be good to read something from a non-Leftist POV about Charlottesville (the leftist POV is easy to find, but it seems to be of its typical intellectual quality). If Steve doesn't feel commenting on that is part of his comparative advantage, perhaps someone here can recommend an alternative source.
    , @Samuel Skinner
    There is no alternative to 'no enemies to the right'. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won't make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn't to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.
    , @27 year old
    >One school of thought in the alt-right has been “no enemies to the right”. That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, et

    Can you elaborate on this?

    A disaster in what way?
    , @guest
    You're sweating Nazi flags? Really? Just roll over and let PC-dom do whatever it wants to you, then.
    , @Jack Hanson
    There's been a lot of cucks squealing about violence because their sinecures are under threat.

    More virtue signalling. What a shocker.
  22. @Anonymous
    Indians have many endogamous groups and hereditary trades and professions even within those castes. It's not like they just have 4 large classes that mix fairly freely within themselves, which would make them more like most other societies.

    For at least 15 years, almost every HBDer has been claiming the Brahmin priest caste were the smartest and that they alone accounted for Indian achievements. That doesn’t seem to be the case, according to the data.

    The elite trades and professions clustered within the upper castes. So if there was a strong caste-IQ correlation, that should’ve shown up in the data.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Discussions invoking data are much better if they actually include references to said data.
    , @Anonymous
    My point was that I don't know if there is a strong caste IQ correlation, as the 4 castes don't cover all the various endogamous groups in the population.
  23. Rod1963 says:

    Pao is a egomaniac with no social skills and lacks introspection. IOW she’s Asian trash with a college degree. It’s one of the drawbacks of Tiger mom’s they turn out smart but emotionally crippled human beings whom you just want to kick their asses for fun. Provided they don’t burn out before the graduate.

    Programming does not need empathy. It doesn’t need another layer of parasites to complicate things and take time away from coding. It doesn’t need incompetent female coders.

    We can start fixing things by booting out all the Babus and Chinese grinders. Let them innovate in their home countries.

    Then we break up the massive monopolies like Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc.

    If a company wants to outsource make them pay the going rate paid in the U.S. that will pucker the CEO’s butt.

    This will also raise wages for our coders which is needed when even the rank and file coders at Google don’t make more than a cop or aerospace tech pulling OT. All of which is a testament to globalization and importing foreign workers to destroy the wage structure in this country.

    Say what you want about the senior executives, founders and CEO of Google. In the end they’re ruthless globalists running a glorified sweat shop and are all about screwing over the worker while making themselves even wealthier.

    Why do you think all the Silicon Valley CEO’s embraced globalism and open borders – they want cheap and easily replaceable labor.

    Read More
  24. @candid_observer

    Code either compiles or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, you get fired. So it’s not accurate to claim they’re totally incompetent. If they’re dumb, the code wouldn’t work.
     
    You must never have written any code if you think getting code to compile is the sticking point. And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.

    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn’t. It doesn’t take genius level IQ to do it, but you can’t be totally incompetent either.

    It’s remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here’s the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    About 8.5% of U.S. Science&Engineering students are Indian international students.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    India has a large number of people. A percentage will be on the far right side of the bell curve. My impression is that, for cultural reasons, almost all these people go into medicine/technology and are willing to do what it takes for career advancement, accounting for their representation. This doesn't mean the majority of Indians getting hired to do coding are being awarded jobs based purely on innate ability.
    , @res
    Simple questions:
    - Have you ever written code?
    - If so, approximately how many lines was your longest program?
    - Have you ever worked on a multi-person coding project?
    - Have you ever worked on a fully staffed programming project (e.g. including marketing, tech writing, QA) shipping code for sale to an external user?

    Having written code myself (my answers: yes, ~1o KLOC IIRC, yes, yes), this statement of yours sounds profoundly ignorant:

    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn’t.
     
    One of the most frustrating things about the Damore conversation is how many people seem to think themselves knowledgeable about coding. Perhaps even worse are those like Zunger who actually do have experience but ignore the importance of coding skills themselves in favor of what is necessary to be most successful and/or move to the next level.
    , @candid_observer
    My remark wasn't meant to be substantive. It was meant to be pedantic.

    That word "compile" doesn't mean what you think it means.
    , @nebulafox
    Coding is objective. You can either do it or you can't. No social uncertainties. I suppose that is a big reason why it appeals to a lot of people on the autism spectrum.

    As for India, when you have 1.2 billion people, you have a lot of smart people and a lot of dummies. Also, only the absolutely peak of the population get past the IIT-JEE, which is basically an automatic ticket to either US graduate school with the possibility of a green-card or a well-paid job locally. Socialism did a lot of things absolutely poorly, but one thing it did right* was education in mathematics, physics, and engineering, whether it was the totalitarian/authoritarian USSR or the Fabian socialist democratic Cold War India. One of the reasons Israel was so eager to get former Soviet Jews to make aliyah in the 1990s was their technical skills, product of the often blatantly anti-Semitic but still first rate mathematical education system in the USSR.

    *(Anti-intellectual totalitarian exceptions have existed, like 1960s China or 1970s Cambodia or Ethiopia. One of the first orders of business for Deng Xiaoping in power was opening China's university system back up and exporting tens of thousands of young Chinese to the US, Europe, Japan, and especially Singapore-where future officials learned not just economics, but also subtler, more effective and media friendly methods of handling dissent-for postgraduate education or training.)

    , @Frau Katze
    It's clear you have never written code.

    Depending on the size of the project, the same person will communicate with the user, write and test the code, release in small doses to a selected group of users, get feedback: i.e. does the program do what you wanted? There may be several iterations, depending on the complexity.

    So there is some communication required.

    But it's not "empathetic" style communicating. It's not like you're a psychologist trying to help them deal with life's difficulties.
    , @Dmon
    Arrow of causality is backward. If a higher percentage of the population could code, they wouldn't have 3rd world conditions.
  25. Anonym says:
    @candid_observer

    Code either compiles or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, you get fired. So it’s not accurate to claim they’re totally incompetent. If they’re dumb, the code wouldn’t work.
     
    You must never have written any code if you think getting code to compile is the sticking point. And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.

    While his general point is correct (coding should get you a measurable outcome, within constraints, and it doesn’t matter what your feelings are), to his original point 1.34B people at IQ 81 are going to have even 3SD above (e.g. 126 IQ assuming SD of 15 points), 1.34M people to draw on.

    Now, that’s assuming there aren’t multiple sub-populations of people at different IQ averages and SD, which is what probably exists in India.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    The point is that code compiling is very different from code running correctly to spec. And anyone who codes is well aware of that. One of the marks of a beginner and/or mediocre coder is believing compiling successfully is anywhere near sufficient.

    Thanks for calculating the India numbers. If anyone wants to have a serious conversation about the IQ of Indians this looks like a decent starting point: http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/iqs-of-indians/
  26. In truth, interpersonal skills like collaboration, communication and empathy are vital to career success in technology.

    Well, of course! These things are always necessary to climbing the corporate ladder (although the article doesn’t mention ruthless backstabbing). In any automotive company, the people who actually build the cars are on the bottom rung. In any tech company, the people who actually do the tech are likewise on the bottom rung. “Career Success” in tech is all about getting the hell away from actually doing any tech. Oh, you need to spend a couple of years at the coalface for street cred, you probably actually do need to know how to code. But beyond that? It’s a dead-end.

    Read More
  27. @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    About 8.5% of U.S. Science&Engineering students are Indian international students.

    Read More
  28. FKA Max says:

    self-absorbed, resentful, and greedy.

    The opposite seems to be true for Angela Ahrendts, she even openly admits that she is not a “techie”.

    Angela Ahrendts Almost Turned Down Tim Cook’s Apple Offer | Fortune Most Powerful Women

    Read More
  29. @Jack Hanson
    Are you planning on talking about what happened today in Cville or are you just going to bang on about golf courses and how SV is full of hypocrites for the umpteenth time?

    You know Steve’s blogging style. What iSteve topic/post/headline would you pull out of Charlottesville?

    Read More
  30. res says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Charlottesville is a pretty big deal, actually.

    One school of thought in the alt-right has been "no enemies to the right". That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, etc.

    So a lot of the commentary on the right has been denunciations and distancing.

    But Varad Mehta, because his name is Varad Mehta, doesn't have to bother with that. So, instead, he produced the best tweet storm on it.

    https://twitter.com/varadmehta/status/896499004279750656

    It would be good to read something from a non-Leftist POV about Charlottesville (the leftist POV is easy to find, but it seems to be of its typical intellectual quality). If Steve doesn’t feel commenting on that is part of his comparative advantage, perhaps someone here can recommend an alternative source.

    Read More
  31. res says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    For at least 15 years, almost every HBDer has been claiming the Brahmin priest caste were the smartest and that they alone accounted for Indian achievements. That doesn't seem to be the case, according to the data.

    The elite trades and professions clustered within the upper castes. So if there was a strong caste-IQ correlation, that should've shown up in the data.

    Discussions invoking data are much better if they actually include references to said data.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Said data are here.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

     

    For years, nearly every HBDer claimed that the Brahmins were a high IQ super elite in India. Based on what data, I don't know.
  32. @Erik L
    It's not either it compiles or it doesn't. And anyway non compilation of code is not the reason most projects fail. The nature of software development allows projects to continue for many years, missing multiple deadlines and ultimately releasing software that only kinda works and only kinda solves a user problem.

    I also see a huge discrepancy - some developers are willing and able to understand real world problems facing customers and think deeply and originally how to take advantage of the power of software to solve those problems. Others just want it laid out "here is what fields the user has to enter on a screen, make them go in a database" and then they turn the crank and make exactly that happen.

    Lots of opportunity for bad developers who don't complain much

    I also see a huge discrepancy – some developers are willing and able to understand real world problems facing customers and think deeply and originally how to take advantage of the power of software to solve those problems. Others just want it laid out “here is what fields the user has to enter on a screen, make them go in a database” and then they turn the crank and make exactly that happen.

    Lots of opportunity for bad developers who don’t complain much

    True, but it takes a moderate IQ to write even bad code. Even elementary coding isn’t simple. If Indians have a mean IQ of 81 or whatever, they shouldn’t be able to write that.

    These Indian H1bs are being paid 6 figure salaries. Nobody pays that much to stupid coders.

    https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-Green-Card.aspx?T=CT

    Read More
  33. @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    India has a large number of people. A percentage will be on the far right side of the bell curve. My impression is that, for cultural reasons, almost all these people go into medicine/technology and are willing to do what it takes for career advancement, accounting for their representation. This doesn’t mean the majority of Indians getting hired to do coding are being awarded jobs based purely on innate ability.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    India has a large number of people. A percentage will be on the far right side of the bell curve.
     
    Given the extreme level of poverty and malnutrition there, I'd bet most of the human capital is untapped. The Indian H1bs aren't the smartest of the country, but rather the smartest of the small number of people affluent enough to afford food, education, and the basics of life.

    My impression is that, for cultural reasons, almost all these people go into medicine/technology and are willing to do what it takes for career advancement, accounting for their representation.
     
    HBDers have spent decades claiming "culture" doesn't exist or that it's merely a product of genes.

    Is it plausible that 81 IQ people would create a pro-education culture?


    This doesn’t mean the majority of Indians getting hired to do coding are being awarded jobs based purely on innate ability.

     

    Probably not, but it does imply the mean IQ isn't anything ridiculously low like 81. It can't be that low.

    Maybe India is a 95-100 IQ country, but with more of a pro-education culture due to millennia of Malthusian culture. That's my guess.

    Ron Unz speculated that India's poverty is mostly due to the corrupt nature and rabid tribalism of its leaders. Which seems plausible to me.
  34. @res
    Discussions invoking data are much better if they actually include references to said data.

    Said data are here.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

    For years, nearly every HBDer claimed that the Brahmins were a high IQ super elite in India. Based on what data, I don’t know.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    How about a link to the data source itself? And 50 year old data is pretty stale at this point. I assume India has experienced major changes in environment over that time.

    For years, nearly every HBDer claimed that the Brahmins were a high IQ super elite in India. Based on what data, I don’t know.
     
    Part of the reason is probably Brahmin overrepresentation in US tech companies.

    Here's some discussion. I'm not sure how seriously to take it: https://pumpkinperson.com/2014/09/29/caste-iq-in-india/
    Some more from iSteve based on the same rec1man source I think: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html
  35. The Indians are mediocre programmers who have locked in the H1B racket via group strategy and ethnic nepotism. Elite Indians don’t actually program because they are not competitive at it. Rather all of them beeline towards management and use their actual competitive advantages, namely office politics and group cohesion, to push out others and hire more Indians. So much programming today at the low end is basically the copy pasting from established code libraries so Indian seat warmers have basically replaced more expensive non Indian seat warmers while patting themselves on the back.

    India already produces a huge number of programmers as the Google code jam and other competitions have shown being usually the largest component. They are just really poor performers being reduced to nothing as the challenges become more difficult.

    Citing the number of Indians in the MIT computer science department is laughable. Offices politics has a huge effect on who gets tenure. Your link also shows quite a few blacks and hordes of women being represented. In the real world where performance matters their representation is usually 0 so the number of Indians tenured at MIT is proof of nothing.

    Russian and Chinese cyber warfare capabilities are infamous. Indian hackers are non existent and its not because they are so ethical, rather just incompetent.

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  36. res says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    Simple questions:
    - Have you ever written code?
    - If so, approximately how many lines was your longest program?
    - Have you ever worked on a multi-person coding project?
    - Have you ever worked on a fully staffed programming project (e.g. including marketing, tech writing, QA) shipping code for sale to an external user?

    Having written code myself (my answers: yes, ~1o KLOC IIRC, yes, yes), this statement of yours sounds profoundly ignorant:

    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn’t.

    One of the most frustrating things about the Damore conversation is how many people seem to think themselves knowledgeable about coding. Perhaps even worse are those like Zunger who actually do have experience but ignore the importance of coding skills themselves in favor of what is necessary to be most successful and/or move to the next level.

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    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    Does writing code that writes code (that works) count?

    What multiplier would you give me for each KLOC written by my code generator?
  37. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyWalker123
    For at least 15 years, almost every HBDer has been claiming the Brahmin priest caste were the smartest and that they alone accounted for Indian achievements. That doesn't seem to be the case, according to the data.

    The elite trades and professions clustered within the upper castes. So if there was a strong caste-IQ correlation, that should've shown up in the data.

    My point was that I don’t know if there is a strong caste IQ correlation, as the 4 castes don’t cover all the various endogamous groups in the population.

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  38. @JDG1980
    I'm unaware of anyone who claimed that Indians (the people of the nation of India) have an average IQ of 81. Are you sure they weren't talking about the other type of "Indians" (Native Americans)?

    Also, note that the "India Average" in the cited figures is lower than you'd expect by averaging the four castes together. Presumably, this is because it also includes "untouchables" (I forget what the official PC term is for them), who could potentially average lower scores than the four official castes.

    Vaishyas seem to do the best of all four castes, even though they weren't historically the highest ranking. I googled this and was unsurprised to find that the Vaishyas are the merchant caste - presumably they have above-average median IQ for the same reason as Ashkenazi Jews.

    I’m unaware of anyone who claimed that Indians (the people of the nation of India) have an average IQ of 81. Are you sure they weren’t talking about the other type of “Indians” (Native Americans)?

    Lynn found a study showing a 81 IQ in India. For years, that number has been repeated on HBD sites. I think it’s sort of interesting that an 81 IQ country could succeed in something like software. This 81 IQ country also has satellites, nuclear weapons, and super computers.

    The Brahmins are right around the average.

    I googled this and was unsurprised to find that the Vaishyas are the merchant caste – presumably they have above-average median IQ for the same reason as Ashkenazi Jews.

    They found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests. So if the merchant castes did better, likely it’s due to wealth.

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  39. res says:
    @Anonym
    While his general point is correct (coding should get you a measurable outcome, within constraints, and it doesn't matter what your feelings are), to his original point 1.34B people at IQ 81 are going to have even 3SD above (e.g. 126 IQ assuming SD of 15 points), 1.34M people to draw on.

    Now, that's assuming there aren't multiple sub-populations of people at different IQ averages and SD, which is what probably exists in India.

    The point is that code compiling is very different from code running correctly to spec. And anyone who codes is well aware of that. One of the marks of a beginner and/or mediocre coder is believing compiling successfully is anywhere near sufficient.

    Thanks for calculating the India numbers. If anyone wants to have a serious conversation about the IQ of Indians this looks like a decent starting point: http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/iqs-of-indians/

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Here's another question: How bad are we stripmining India of its smart fractions of people?

    And what is the effect of this on India generally? It can't be good. It could be really bad, or it could be really, really bad.

    We're taking out of India all the people who 1) have any reason to be discontented with the generally shitty state of the country and 2) have any hope of making improvements.

    We are also, not that we necessarily care, very possibly enabling Caste Genocide-whole castes (or subcastes) are emigrating to the US, where they tend to outmarry at much higher rates and their kids will probably become Christians , atheists, or agnostics and say phooey to Hinduism. They might even start eating cows!

    Again, correctly, SJWs don't give a shit because they hate whitey worse than they care about anything else and will not be moved. But the great unwashed, and some Indians too (who are also generally unwashed, but that's a different bag of curry powder) may think about it. And from an Indian nationalist standpoint, it is indeed their version of white genocide.
    , @Anonym
    I am well aware that generating code that compiles (i.e. does not throw up a syntax error or something of that nature, everything is roughly where it supposed to be) is only a fairly trivial step in ultimately generating something that does what you want it to do, from a coding perspective. Even when things work 90% of the time, troubleshooting so that they work 100% of the time can take the majority of your coding time. Optimizing things can take a while, maybe your algorithm is unacceptably slow for example.

    Obviously there are some competent-enough coders from India for the major H1B employers to try to continue to keep the flow up, though I do hear horror stories. I think this was JW's point. That, and how does an IQ 81 country produce acceptable coders? If they have 18% of the world's population, that's a start. And even IQ 81 is better than the typical SSA country.
  40. Anon7 says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    From an earlier iSteve article

    India
    Current IQ

    Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ
    Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ
    Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ
    Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ
    Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ
    Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ
    Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
    Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ
    Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Those numbers sound like garbage. No way could there be large Indian subgroups with mean IQ in the 110-120 range.

    My model of India is that most of the caste groups cluster in the 95-100 IQ range. If there really are 110-120 IQ subgroups in India, we would see that in their historical and contemporary output.

    Also, the study on caste and academic achievement showed no advantage for the Brahmins. So the numbers have no basis in reality.
    , @AnotherDad
    Johnny Walker and I actually agree on this one. RecMan's numbers are garbage--obvious garbage.

    For starters, even Brahmins in the US don't have a 120 mean IQ. They are highly selected and smart and have the highest incomes of any ethnic group--a bunch of that from immigrant drive and hustle--but they still aren't all that. (The actual immigrants in STEM, coming for masters degrees are in that ballpark, but the full immigrant pool is broader than that including wives, and then the kids get some regression to the mean.)

    Furthermore, though a small percentage of India--maybe 5%?--there are a lot of Brahmins and they've been prominent in India's civil administration from the get go. If they are really a near genius population then it's hard to explain the continual sheer mediocrity of India including its inability to organize even its basic public services very well.

    And the muslim number is low. That's just good old muslim bashing. The muslim community is no doubt low IQ. A lot of converts came from the lower castes who had a crappy deal under Hinduism and Islam at least delivered better hope and self-respect. (And Islam itself knocks about 5 points off IQ.) But there was massive defection to the religion of the rulers across many layers of society. And they didn't all--or even most--leave for Pakistan. You don't throw up the scientists (e.g. Abdul Kalam) from a 75 IQ population.


    Another Dad stab at some more realistic numbers:
    -- Brahmin -- 104 (equivalent to Chinese but skewed more verbal)
    -- Vaishya -- 98 (equivalent to whites, with some particularly smarter sub-castes)
    -- Shudra -- 83 now, 90 non-repressed
    -- Muslims -- 83 now, 90 non-repressed (less a coherent population, more a collection)
    -- Dalit -- 75 now, 85 non-repressed
    -- Tribal -- 70 now, 80 non-repressed

    All India--85ish now, similar to the African-American number. India's far inferior performance on PISA due to poor schooling in India. (African-Americans have the huge benefit--across all spheres of life--of living in a white organized society ... then whine about it.)

    My guess is that if India could address the nutritional and schooling deficiencies--essentially move up the Flynn curve--that their actual current genotypic IQ is something around 90, similar to other West Asian places. (Pulled down by tribals and peasant caste backwardness, pulled up by long civilization and literacy of some castes.)

    However, a big problem for India is that it is highly dysgenic. The upper castes have taken to the Western--and "population correct"--standard of two kids. And like the West often fail to meet that. Sometimes intentionally because--like the US--multiculturalism and high population means "affordable family formation" and stuff like "housing in a good neighborhood" and "good schools" are very expensive. Upper castes are in TFR terms contracting already. And then many of the best and brightest Indians have emigrated. So the smarter upper castes are getting smaller and dumber.

    Meanwhile the lower caste population--especially in the north--is still growing rapidly. And the muslim population even more rapidly. So India will be
    -- more crowded
    -- genotypically dumber even as the phenotypic IQ improves
    -- more riven by the Hindu-Muslim divide

    India will improve with increased prosperity, but because of--pretty much the same causes as in the West--dysgenics and diversity, India is not headed toward a happy place.
  41. @Dave Pinsen
    Charlottesville is a pretty big deal, actually.

    One school of thought in the alt-right has been "no enemies to the right". That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, etc.

    So a lot of the commentary on the right has been denunciations and distancing.

    But Varad Mehta, because his name is Varad Mehta, doesn't have to bother with that. So, instead, he produced the best tweet storm on it.

    https://twitter.com/varadmehta/status/896499004279750656

    There is no alternative to ‘no enemies to the right’. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won’t make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn’t to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    There is no alternative to ‘no enemies to the right’. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won’t make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream.
     
    It does however make sense to have a policy of "no allies who are stupid". And waving swastika flags at an event designed to gain visibility for your movement is pretty stupid. Nazism is a proven loser. If the alt-right doesn't realize that, then they aren't as smart as they think they are, and won't be as influential as they hope to be. Actually, I wonder how many of the 1488 crowd in attendance were on the FBI payroll. Not all of them, I suspect, or even most of them. But I would not be surprised if a few of them are.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    The alternative is winning elections, like Trump did.
    https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/896515474665746437
    , @Anonym
    There is no alternative to ‘no enemies to the right’. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won’t make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn’t to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    Exactly, we will never get mainstream approval. We've had half a century of being Charlie Brown trying to kick Lucy's football of "mainstream approval". The goal is to shift the Overton window in an anti-immigrationist, pro-white direction.

    My guess is that Steve is waiting until he can read enough on the C_ville subject to say something that complies with his TINF objectives - True, Interesting, New, or Funny, I think it was.

    , @Kevin C.

    The goal isn’t to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.
     
    And what makes you think that's achievable?
  42. Bastion says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    “Code either compiles or it doesn’t.”

    LOL. “It works on my machine.” is the excuse of every half-ass developer who ever lived. They are largely incompetent. 20 years ago we were get cheap talent from the right tail of the bell curve for cheap. Those days are long gone. Now, talented developers from the USA (I speak from experience), threaten, cajole, and spoon feed the “talent” from India. Am I a development lead or a kindergarten teacher? some days it’s not altogether clear.

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  43. res says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Said data are here.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

     

    For years, nearly every HBDer claimed that the Brahmins were a high IQ super elite in India. Based on what data, I don't know.

    How about a link to the data source itself? And 50 year old data is pretty stale at this point. I assume India has experienced major changes in environment over that time.

    For years, nearly every HBDer claimed that the Brahmins were a high IQ super elite in India. Based on what data, I don’t know.

    Part of the reason is probably Brahmin overrepresentation in US tech companies.

    Here’s some discussion. I’m not sure how seriously to take it: https://pumpkinperson.com/2014/09/29/caste-iq-in-india/
    Some more from iSteve based on the same rec1man source I think: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Both those links are based on the analysis of Rec1Man. He's a self-identified Indian Brahmin poster who claims the Brahmins are a super high IQ (110-120 IQ, depending on the region of the Brahmin's location) over class.

    His caste-IQ estimates are at odds with the data from the Indian sociologists.

    The data may be 50 years old, but it's based on a decent sample size. Do you think that upper castes would've become a lot smarter since then?

    I tried doing some research on caste&IQ. The data I found did show upper castes did better on IQ-related tests, but some of the studies suggested socioeconomic factors were responsible for the variation.

    Also, there are many Indian/Paki subcontinentals in the UK. A large fraction are the descendants of peasant laborers, while others are the children of professionals.

    Here's some academic data of their student performance.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/886691620695003136

    The Tamils (who are the descendants of refugees from Sri Lanka) substantially outperform the national average. The Nepalis (who are mainly the children of soldiers in the UK army) are the average. The Bengalis (who come from a backward region of Bangladesh) are only slightly below average. The Punjabis (who are mainly descended from agricultural-region migrants) are also slightly below the average.

    Here's some more data.

    http://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Chisala-4.png
  44. @Tiny Duck
    Just another gasp of a white male losing his privileged position

    What have white males ever created and contributed to society?

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  45. @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    My remark wasn’t meant to be substantive. It was meant to be pedantic.

    That word “compile” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

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  46. @Chrisnonymous
    India has a large number of people. A percentage will be on the far right side of the bell curve. My impression is that, for cultural reasons, almost all these people go into medicine/technology and are willing to do what it takes for career advancement, accounting for their representation. This doesn't mean the majority of Indians getting hired to do coding are being awarded jobs based purely on innate ability.

    India has a large number of people. A percentage will be on the far right side of the bell curve.

    Given the extreme level of poverty and malnutrition there, I’d bet most of the human capital is untapped. The Indian H1bs aren’t the smartest of the country, but rather the smartest of the small number of people affluent enough to afford food, education, and the basics of life.

    My impression is that, for cultural reasons, almost all these people go into medicine/technology and are willing to do what it takes for career advancement, accounting for their representation.

    HBDers have spent decades claiming “culture” doesn’t exist or that it’s merely a product of genes.

    Is it plausible that 81 IQ people would create a pro-education culture?

    This doesn’t mean the majority of Indians getting hired to do coding are being awarded jobs based purely on innate ability.

    Probably not, but it does imply the mean IQ isn’t anything ridiculously low like 81. It can’t be that low.

    Maybe India is a 95-100 IQ country, but with more of a pro-education culture due to millennia of Malthusian culture. That’s my guess.

    Ron Unz speculated that India’s poverty is mostly due to the corrupt nature and rabid tribalism of its leaders. Which seems plausible to me.

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Some parts of India are more developed than others. I've never been, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But generally speaking, from what I've heard from Indians or people who have been to India, while Dravadian South India has a fair amount of poverty, touts, and all the rest, it is a lot easier than the North for foreigners to handle and seems to have a higher level of development as a whole. Ethnic Tamils in Malaysia and Singapore generally tend to do well. On the other hand, the "Hindi Belt" of Uttar Pradesh/Bihar and the Bengal in the east remain the poorest areas of India.

    Interestingly, Gujurat has really, really made a jump in the HDI rankings over the past 15 years, which corresponds to Modi's governorship. RSS man or not, he knows his way around economic development.

  47. Kylie says:
    @syonredux
    Insanely off-topic,

    I was just re-watching John Ford's Rio Grande (after Fort Apache, my favorite of Ford's "Cavalry Trilogy") and got intrigued by the character of Captain St. Jacques. So, I decided to look up the actor who played him. Holy Cow! What a life:

    Pierre (Peter) Julien Ortiz OBE (July 5, 1913 – May 16, 1988) was a United States Marine Corps colonel who received two Navy Crosses for extraordinary heroism as a major in World War II. He served in both North Africa and Europe throughout the war, as a member of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), operating behind enemy lines several times. He became an American film actor after the war.
     

    Although born in New York[1] to a Spanish-American mother[2] and French-American[3] father, Ortiz was educated at the University of Grenoble in France.[3] He spoke ten languages, including Spanish, French, German and Arabic.[2]
    On February 1, 1932, at the age of 19, he joined the French Foreign Legion for five years' service in North Africa.[2][3][4][5] He was sent first to the Legion's training camp at Sidi Bel-Abbes, Algeria. He later served in Morocco, where he was promoted to corporal in 1933 and sergeant in 1935. He was awarded the Croix de guerre twice during a campaign against the Rif.[3] He also received the Médaille militaire.[5] An acting lieutenant, he was offered a commission as a second lieutenant if he would re-enlist.[5] Instead, when his contract expired in 1937, he went to Hollywood to serve as a technical adviser for war films.[3]
    With the outbreak of World War II and the United States still neutral, he re-enlisted in the Foreign Legion in October 1939 as a sergeant, and received a battlefield commission in May 1940.[5] He was wounded while blowing up a fuel dump[5] and captured by the Germans during the 1940 Battle of France.[3] He escaped the following year via Lisbon and made his way to the United States.[5]
    He enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps on June 22, 1942.[5] As a result of his training and experience, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant after only 40 days in service.[1][3] He was promoted to captain on December 3.[5] With his knowledge of the region, he was sent to Tangier, Morocco.[4] He conducted reconnaissance behind enemy lines in Tunisia for the Office of Strategic Services (OSS).[3][5] At the time, though most of Morocco was a French protectorate, Tangiers was a protectorate of neutral Spain. During a night mission, Ortiz was seriously wounded in the right hand in an encounter with a German patrol and was sent back to the United States to recover.[5]
    In 1943, Ortiz became a member of the OSS. On January 6, 1944, he was dropped by parachute into the Haute-Savoie region of German-occupied France as part of the three-man "Union" mission, with Colonel Pierre Fourcaud of the French secret service and Captain Thackwaite from the British Special Operations Executive, to evaluate the capabilities of the Resistance in the Alpine region.[3][5] He drove four downed RAF pilots to the border of neutral Spain,[3] before leaving France with his team in late May. Promoted to major, Ortiz parachuted back into France on August 1, 1944, this time as the commander of the "Union II" mission.[3][5] He was captured by the Germans on August 16. In April 1945, he and three other prisoners of war escaped while being moved to another camp, but after ten days with little or no food, returned to their old camp after discovering that the prisoners had virtually taken control.[5] On April 29, the camp was liberated.
    He rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel in the Marine Corps Reserve. He was discharged from active duty in 1946 and returned to Hollywood.
     

    Upon returning to civilian life, Ortiz became an actor.[6] Ortiz appeared in a number of films, several with director John Ford, including Rio Grande, in which he played "Captain St. Jacques". According to his son, Marine Lieutenant Colonel Peter J. Ortiz, Jr., "My father was an awful actor but he had great fun appearing in movies".[3] At least two Hollywood films were based upon his personal exploits, 13 Rue Madeleine (1947) and Operation Secret (1952).[1]
    Ortiz died of cancer on May 16, 1988, at the age of 74, and was buried at Arlington National Cemetery. He was survived by his wife Jean and their son Peter J. Ortiz, Jr
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_J._Ortiz

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  48. @candid_observer
    My remark wasn't meant to be substantive. It was meant to be pedantic.

    That word "compile" doesn't mean what you think it means.

    What do you think that I think it means?

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  49. @Anon7
    From an earlier iSteve article

    India
    Current IQ

    Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ
    Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ
    Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ
    Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ
    Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ
    Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ
    Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
    Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ
    Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html

    Those numbers sound like garbage. No way could there be large Indian subgroups with mean IQ in the 110-120 range.

    My model of India is that most of the caste groups cluster in the 95-100 IQ range. If there really are 110-120 IQ subgroups in India, we would see that in their historical and contemporary output.

    Also, the study on caste and academic achievement showed no advantage for the Brahmins. So the numbers have no basis in reality.

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    • Replies: @Anon7
    I happen to know at least a dozen people who are South Indian Brahmins, and I can tell you from my personal experience that these people, born in India, are certainly in the IQ 120+ range. They are academic physicians, they are college professors, they are computer programmers and they are not affirmative action hires. I don't know very many of their kids, but the two that I do know averaged 34 across the board on their ACTs, which is not an IQ test, but I don't doubt that these kids are bright academically, IQ 120 at least.

    The stats mentioned in the iSteve article said that southern Brahmins represented the upper 1% of India's intellectual population and I don't have any idea whether or not that number is true. But if you compare that to the US, about 10% of Americans have IQ 120 or better.
  50. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @res
    The point is that code compiling is very different from code running correctly to spec. And anyone who codes is well aware of that. One of the marks of a beginner and/or mediocre coder is believing compiling successfully is anywhere near sufficient.

    Thanks for calculating the India numbers. If anyone wants to have a serious conversation about the IQ of Indians this looks like a decent starting point: http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/iqs-of-indians/

    Here’s another question: How bad are we stripmining India of its smart fractions of people?

    And what is the effect of this on India generally? It can’t be good. It could be really bad, or it could be really, really bad.

    We’re taking out of India all the people who 1) have any reason to be discontented with the generally shitty state of the country and 2) have any hope of making improvements.

    We are also, not that we necessarily care, very possibly enabling Caste Genocide-whole castes (or subcastes) are emigrating to the US, where they tend to outmarry at much higher rates and their kids will probably become Christians , atheists, or agnostics and say phooey to Hinduism. They might even start eating cows!

    Again, correctly, SJWs don’t give a shit because they hate whitey worse than they care about anything else and will not be moved. But the great unwashed, and some Indians too (who are also generally unwashed, but that’s a different bag of curry powder) may think about it. And from an Indian nationalist standpoint, it is indeed their version of white genocide.

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    • Replies: @res
    Agreed. It's funny how the SJWs used to care about the brain drain from less developed countries. Now they just want ALL of them to come here.
    , @PiltdownMan

    Here’s another question: How bad are we stripmining India of its smart fractions of people?
     
    The trendline of India's GDP growth rate for the last 70 years suggests that immigration of members of their talented class has only a minimal impact.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-growth-annual


    Fewer than 100,000 Indians, including family members, get green cards in America each year. That's a tiny, tiny fraction of even the talented tenth in India.
  51. Njguy73 says:
    @Clement Pulaski
    SJW's try to have it both ways: men and women are exactly the same, but supposedly feminine qualities like empathy are more important than masculine qualities

    Men and women are exactly the same, especially women.

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  52. Njguy73 says:
    @WR
    Miller wants to integrate technology to the pink economy. On June 1st, she wrote another NYT article entitled "How to raise a feminist son." Who wouldn't? In that thought-provoking piece, she explained:

    "Men are falling behind in school and work because we are not raising boys to succeed in the new, pink economy. Skills like cooperation, empathy and diligence — often considered to be feminine — are increasingly valued in modern-day work and school, and jobs that require these skills are the fastest-growing."

    Skills like cooperation, empathy and diligence — often considered to be feminine — are increasingly valued in modern-day work and school, and jobs that require these skills are the fastest-growing

    https://www.thiswayglobal.com/blog/fastest-growing-jobs-2017/

    Well, one out of seven ain’t bad.

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  53. I’m with Heartiste; what Google (and the rest of Silicon Valley) needs is a black woman CEO. We should be demanding it.

    I think one of Alinsky’s rules for radicals was force the enemy to live up to its own standards.

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    • LOL: PV van der Byl
    • Replies: @Kevin C.

    I think one of Alinsky’s rules for radicals was force the enemy to live up to its own standards.
     
    That requires the enemy to have actual standards, to which they may be held, rather than pure "who, whom."
  54. Njguy73 says:
    @Erik L
    My reaction to this article is that she is partly or even mostly right about what is needed for most software development. Well, I wouldn't call it empathy but yes it is far more difficult and important for most projects to understand customer problems and analyze those systematically and translate those into something that can induce the developers to create a good solution.

    It does involve communicating with people who are not in software and understanding what the real problem is. Usually the real problems are not directly stated by the customer.

    So she's partially right. On the other hand I don't see how that contradicts that guy's essay or manifesto or whatever.

    Also I have never noticed women to be particularly superior at this task but I have a pretty small sample size. Should be noted that properly done, these tasks also benefit from that autistic spectrum obsession with categorizing, creating taxonomies, generalizing and so forth

    that autistic spectrum obsession with categorizing, creating taxonomies, generalizing and so forth

    Slate was saying good things about this back in 2014.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/03/28/autism_at_work_companies_like_sap_and_freddie_mac_are_hiring_people_with.html

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  55. Mr. Anon says:
    @Samuel Skinner
    There is no alternative to 'no enemies to the right'. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won't make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn't to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    There is no alternative to ‘no enemies to the right’. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won’t make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream.

    It does however make sense to have a policy of “no allies who are stupid”. And waving swastika flags at an event designed to gain visibility for your movement is pretty stupid. Nazism is a proven loser. If the alt-right doesn’t realize that, then they aren’t as smart as they think they are, and won’t be as influential as they hope to be. Actually, I wonder how many of the 1488 crowd in attendance were on the FBI payroll. Not all of them, I suspect, or even most of them. But I would not be surprised if a few of them are.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In any WN/WP gathering anyone waving a swastika or the KKK logo is even money to be one of two things: a Fed or ADL/SPLC plant, or a certified nutcase. Ditto anyone with the Northwest tricolor outside of the Northwest area itself.
  56. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    Do you have any data on the average BO quotient? It’s gotta be sky high.

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  57. anon says: • Disclaimer

    In truth, interpersonal skills like collaboration, communication and empathy are vital to career success in technology.

    True that.

    Cause coding is a great place to start a tech career, it isn’t the greatest place to end one. Like venture capital. Nice work if you can get it.

    Somebody that is great at sales is going to make money … and if they have subject matter expertise, selling tech stuff is great. Sell software, services, systems, outsourcing, or non commodity hardware.

    And a good coder will tend to become a project leader or manager or designer. The best paid, senior people will tend to be managers of one sort or another and needs management skills. As well as a solid foundation in the underlying technology.

    So, sure. But for front line, coding? Your stereotypical engineering type is what you need.

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  58. @anon
    "Computer programming was originally considered a woman’s job. They were programmers of the Eniac during World War II and at NASA, as shown in the film “Hidden Figures.” That began to change when programming professionalized in the 1960s. The stereotype of an eccentric genius who would rather work with machines than people was born, according to Nathan Ensmenger, a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry."

    For the men who created the ENIAC, it was natural to get the female computers to convert to code the computations that for decades they had been doing by hand. Women were't pioneers of programming.

    I vaguely remember a song from the eighties about these women. The chorus went:

    She’s an ENIAC, ENIAC programmer,
    And she’s coding like she’s ne’er coded before.

    (I confess I may have misremembered the lyrics.)

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  59. Anonym says:
    @res
    The point is that code compiling is very different from code running correctly to spec. And anyone who codes is well aware of that. One of the marks of a beginner and/or mediocre coder is believing compiling successfully is anywhere near sufficient.

    Thanks for calculating the India numbers. If anyone wants to have a serious conversation about the IQ of Indians this looks like a decent starting point: http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/iqs-of-indians/

    I am well aware that generating code that compiles (i.e. does not throw up a syntax error or something of that nature, everything is roughly where it supposed to be) is only a fairly trivial step in ultimately generating something that does what you want it to do, from a coding perspective. Even when things work 90% of the time, troubleshooting so that they work 100% of the time can take the majority of your coding time. Optimizing things can take a while, maybe your algorithm is unacceptably slow for example.

    Obviously there are some competent-enough coders from India for the major H1B employers to try to continue to keep the flow up, though I do hear horror stories. I think this was JW’s point. That, and how does an IQ 81 country produce acceptable coders? If they have 18% of the world’s population, that’s a start. And even IQ 81 is better than the typical SSA country.

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  60. @Dave Pinsen
    Charlottesville is a pretty big deal, actually.

    One school of thought in the alt-right has been "no enemies to the right". That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, etc.

    So a lot of the commentary on the right has been denunciations and distancing.

    But Varad Mehta, because his name is Varad Mehta, doesn't have to bother with that. So, instead, he produced the best tweet storm on it.

    https://twitter.com/varadmehta/status/896499004279750656

    >One school of thought in the alt-right has been “no enemies to the right”. That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, et

    Can you elaborate on this?

    A disaster in what way?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    There's a gap between Derbyshire and people carrying Nazi party flags. Spencer was in that gap. No enemies to the right for Derb and his embrace of Spencer means now he embraces pro-Nazi activists too.

    Also, murder and demonstrating lack of self-restraint are not things we endorse.

    I for one am not interested in an ID movement focused on whites going out in a blaze of glory. I'm interested in one that appeals to more whites--enough to be politically viable. Your actions have got to appeal to my mom and dad--long-time Buchanan-on-McLaughlin-Group fans who are still (for bad reasons) pro-GOP/pro-NR/pro-Neocon types. They should be brought into the fold, but I can't direct them to any alt-rightish material because of stunts like Cville.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    You know how #BlackLivesMatter violence was a disaster for Dems? In that way.
  61. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Samuel Skinner
    There is no alternative to 'no enemies to the right'. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won't make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn't to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    The alternative is winning elections, like Trump did.

    Read More
    • Replies: @guest
    One man's riot is another man's cops beating up on peaceful people for no good reason.

    But you're right, Miller. The alt-right really oughtta drip the targeted assassination of cops. It's so counter-productive electorally.

    Wait a minute, they're not committing terrorism. They just showing up to do what they got a permit to do ahead of time, before it was pulled for political reasons, then they were beset upon by thugs and cops for political reasons.

    Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I guess.
  62. @res
    Simple questions:
    - Have you ever written code?
    - If so, approximately how many lines was your longest program?
    - Have you ever worked on a multi-person coding project?
    - Have you ever worked on a fully staffed programming project (e.g. including marketing, tech writing, QA) shipping code for sale to an external user?

    Having written code myself (my answers: yes, ~1o KLOC IIRC, yes, yes), this statement of yours sounds profoundly ignorant:

    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn’t.
     
    One of the most frustrating things about the Damore conversation is how many people seem to think themselves knowledgeable about coding. Perhaps even worse are those like Zunger who actually do have experience but ignore the importance of coding skills themselves in favor of what is necessary to be most successful and/or move to the next level.

    Does writing code that writes code (that works) count?

    What multiplier would you give me for each KLOC written by my code generator?

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    • Replies: @res

    Does writing code that writes code (that works) count?
     
    Asking that question means my earlier questions are probably irrelevant for you ; )

    What multiplier would you give me for each KLOC written by my code generator?
     
    As you probably know, that is an extremely interesting question. First though, would you base it on lines of code written by your code generator or lines of "code" in your code generator and its inputs?

    FWIW I'm not a big fan of LOC as a metric. Too much fuzziness because of different languages, coding styles, what actually gets counted, etc. The real point of my LOC question was trying to get an idea of program complexity dealt with. Code generation is nice because it keeps the amount of information that has to be actively maintained down, helps minimize redundancy, and can simplify massive changes.
  63. jim jones says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    Only 36% of Indian Engineers can write code which actually compiles:

    https://www.scribd.com/document/345948744/National-Programming-Skills-Report-Engineers-2017-Report-Brief

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    • Replies: @Nico
    And I'm not certain their "engineering" credentials are up to the stuff of what accredited American engineering colleges turn out.
  64. nebulafox says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    Coding is objective. You can either do it or you can’t. No social uncertainties. I suppose that is a big reason why it appeals to a lot of people on the autism spectrum.

    As for India, when you have 1.2 billion people, you have a lot of smart people and a lot of dummies. Also, only the absolutely peak of the population get past the IIT-JEE, which is basically an automatic ticket to either US graduate school with the possibility of a green-card or a well-paid job locally. Socialism did a lot of things absolutely poorly, but one thing it did right* was education in mathematics, physics, and engineering, whether it was the totalitarian/authoritarian USSR or the Fabian socialist democratic Cold War India. One of the reasons Israel was so eager to get former Soviet Jews to make aliyah in the 1990s was their technical skills, product of the often blatantly anti-Semitic but still first rate mathematical education system in the USSR.

    *(Anti-intellectual totalitarian exceptions have existed, like 1960s China or 1970s Cambodia or Ethiopia. One of the first orders of business for Deng Xiaoping in power was opening China’s university system back up and exporting tens of thousands of young Chinese to the US, Europe, Japan, and especially Singapore-where future officials learned not just economics, but also subtler, more effective and media friendly methods of handling dissent-for postgraduate education or training.)

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  65. Anonym says:
    @Samuel Skinner
    There is no alternative to 'no enemies to the right'. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won't make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn't to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    There is no alternative to ‘no enemies to the right’. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won’t make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn’t to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    Exactly, we will never get mainstream approval. We’ve had half a century of being Charlie Brown trying to kick Lucy’s football of “mainstream approval”. The goal is to shift the Overton window in an anti-immigrationist, pro-white direction.

    My guess is that Steve is waiting until he can read enough on the C_ville subject to say something that complies with his TINF objectives – True, Interesting, New, or Funny, I think it was.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    You got to kick the football last November -- you don't remember?

    Why fumble it now?
  66. Drake says:
    @AnotherDad
    Well timed comment Steve. This dovetails with a comment i've been meaning to make for a few days.

    I think there's a lot of folks who make a sort of sloppy association: women==superior social skills==better collaboration.

    [TL;DR -- men are actually better collaborators at scale.]

    Sam Sharma made that argument in a comment a few days back. Yonatan Zunger's middle point about engineering requiring people skills makes it to. (A quite valid point. I start off my Communications Merit Badge class driving this point home--to do anything of consequence you have to have good communication skills to get other people on board with your program.) Zunger is clever and careful. He keeps on message and always uses quotes around "female" to avoid the implication he believes in biological stereotypes. But the implication is that male nerds will flame out and women will excel do once the scale of the engineering moves out beyond what one guy can do in his office or lab. And in truth there are definitely a lot of nerdy (aspie) guys in tech who are abysmally poor at communication.

    However, this argument really misunderstands women's superior "social skills". Where women have the clear advantage is really in "inter-personal" skills--with the accent on the personal. Women are better at skills like reading faces and have more empathy. They really are superior doing things like say child care or nursing. They can probably do very well in sales for the right products. And they are fine managing small groups.

    However, there's very little evidence--like none--that women are superior *at scale*. That they are better at coordinating and getting everything lined up and everyone marching in the right direction to make some large project work. It simply isn't the case. Beyond the scale of say the tribal hen circle, women's "social skills" don't really scale. The problem is with women ... it really is personal.

    In contrast men do scale. They do it by teams, male-bonding and, to scale up, with hierarchy. Men are also better at putting aside the personal for a larger goal. Men can be competing--for status and leadership in a group--but keep that competition from derailing a larger cooperative goal. (E.g. surrounding the intruder tribe's camp, then rushing in to kill or drive off the men and grab up the women.) In fact throughout history men scaled up to even form alliances with foreign peoples whose languages they don't speak and customs they don't like in order to achieve big goals like annihilating a common enemy. Yes, another warfare analogy, but that's actually what corporate competition is analogous to--mobilizing all your efforts to get your superior product out there to beat your competitor. Then furthermore there's the issue that large engineering at scale also involves ... abstraction at scale. Abstraction--seeing this big picture puzzle of lots of moving pieces--is again something men just tend to be better at. Women prefer the personal and concrete--their project, their people.

    I can prattle on but that's the gist of it. Women are indeed different than men and superior in inter-personal skills. But the sort of corporate product building thing isn't really about strong "personal" relationships, it's about being able to do a bunch of precisely not-very-personal, we-don't-have-to-hug, collaborations with other people/groups on the basis of mutual interest and the ability to agree on logically/rationally on approaches/interfaces/timetables/procedures to get a larger job done.

    But the sort of corporate product building thing isn’t really about strong “personal” relationships, it’s about being able to do a bunch of precisely not-very-personal, we-don’t-have-to-hug, collaborations with other people

    This is correct. One thing the people who emphasize the need for communication tend to overlook is that in tech much of the important communication concerns objective facts rather than feelings. And I don’t think men, or even introverted aspy types, are deficient when it comes to communicating such facts.

    Documenting code or writing white papers doesn’t require the same empathy that writing a Jane Austen novel does.

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  67. res says:
    @Anonymous
    Here's another question: How bad are we stripmining India of its smart fractions of people?

    And what is the effect of this on India generally? It can't be good. It could be really bad, or it could be really, really bad.

    We're taking out of India all the people who 1) have any reason to be discontented with the generally shitty state of the country and 2) have any hope of making improvements.

    We are also, not that we necessarily care, very possibly enabling Caste Genocide-whole castes (or subcastes) are emigrating to the US, where they tend to outmarry at much higher rates and their kids will probably become Christians , atheists, or agnostics and say phooey to Hinduism. They might even start eating cows!

    Again, correctly, SJWs don't give a shit because they hate whitey worse than they care about anything else and will not be moved. But the great unwashed, and some Indians too (who are also generally unwashed, but that's a different bag of curry powder) may think about it. And from an Indian nationalist standpoint, it is indeed their version of white genocide.

    Agreed. It’s funny how the SJWs used to care about the brain drain from less developed countries. Now they just want ALL of them to come here.

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  68. @27 year old
    >One school of thought in the alt-right has been “no enemies to the right”. That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, et

    Can you elaborate on this?

    A disaster in what way?

    There’s a gap between Derbyshire and people carrying Nazi party flags. Spencer was in that gap. No enemies to the right for Derb and his embrace of Spencer means now he embraces pro-Nazi activists too.

    Also, murder and demonstrating lack of self-restraint are not things we endorse.

    I for one am not interested in an ID movement focused on whites going out in a blaze of glory. I’m interested in one that appeals to more whites–enough to be politically viable. Your actions have got to appeal to my mom and dad–long-time Buchanan-on-McLaughlin-Group fans who are still (for bad reasons) pro-GOP/pro-NR/pro-Neocon types. They should be brought into the fold, but I can’t direct them to any alt-rightish material because of stunts like Cville.

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    • Replies: @Difference maker
    Aye, we need to break with them. And since we are, it's really nbd. Just more Antifa retardation.

    Notice that even the Msm doesn't dare label them as simply/only Trump supporters. Water off a duck's back
  69. Rod1963 says:
    @WR
    Miller wants to integrate technology to the pink economy. On June 1st, she wrote another NYT article entitled "How to raise a feminist son." Who wouldn't? In that thought-provoking piece, she explained:

    "Men are falling behind in school and work because we are not raising boys to succeed in the new, pink economy. Skills like cooperation, empathy and diligence — often considered to be feminine — are increasingly valued in modern-day work and school, and jobs that require these skills are the fastest-growing."

    “Men are falling behind in school and work because we are not raising boys to succeed in the new, pink economy. Skills like cooperation, empathy and diligence — often considered to be feminine — are increasingly valued in modern-day work and school, and jobs that require these skills are the fastest-growing.”

    Nonsense. Schools are run by females and they don’t like boys being boys, the bright boys just tune all the shit some idiot with a teaching degree is telling them, Others get bored and act out. So teacher sends them the the counselor who labels them learning disabled and prescribes Methamphetaminea to calm them down. Kids become zombies and are f**ked for life. Smarter ones take pills and sell them to adults and other kids. They know the teachers are mostly dimwits.

    Look public schooling is straight out unfit for white kids of ever average intelligence. They are PC/MC cesspits who because of lawsuits have to put all kids in the same class. Which ensures the smart and even average kids don’t learn much.

    That said, mushy feelings crap didn’t get us to the Moon or build the Space Shuttle, it didn’t build the Atom bomb, the microwave oven the transistor or microprocessor or a hundred other things in our society.

    Look men can work as teams with no problem and build incredibly sophisticated systems – Boulder Dam comes to mind. The men who built Apollo used slide rules, not multiprocessor Itaniums running bulls**t collaboration software. They weren’t in touch with their feelings. They make those engineers at Google, X Space and the other initiatives look like dolts who forgot how to think.

    Feminist son? That’s child abuse. Sterilize the mother and father ASAP. Then shut down Yale for graduating idiots and turn it into a pig farm.

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  70. nebulafox says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    India has a large number of people. A percentage will be on the far right side of the bell curve.
     
    Given the extreme level of poverty and malnutrition there, I'd bet most of the human capital is untapped. The Indian H1bs aren't the smartest of the country, but rather the smartest of the small number of people affluent enough to afford food, education, and the basics of life.

    My impression is that, for cultural reasons, almost all these people go into medicine/technology and are willing to do what it takes for career advancement, accounting for their representation.
     
    HBDers have spent decades claiming "culture" doesn't exist or that it's merely a product of genes.

    Is it plausible that 81 IQ people would create a pro-education culture?


    This doesn’t mean the majority of Indians getting hired to do coding are being awarded jobs based purely on innate ability.

     

    Probably not, but it does imply the mean IQ isn't anything ridiculously low like 81. It can't be that low.

    Maybe India is a 95-100 IQ country, but with more of a pro-education culture due to millennia of Malthusian culture. That's my guess.

    Ron Unz speculated that India's poverty is mostly due to the corrupt nature and rabid tribalism of its leaders. Which seems plausible to me.

    Some parts of India are more developed than others. I’ve never been, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But generally speaking, from what I’ve heard from Indians or people who have been to India, while Dravadian South India has a fair amount of poverty, touts, and all the rest, it is a lot easier than the North for foreigners to handle and seems to have a higher level of development as a whole. Ethnic Tamils in Malaysia and Singapore generally tend to do well. On the other hand, the “Hindi Belt” of Uttar Pradesh/Bihar and the Bengal in the east remain the poorest areas of India.

    Interestingly, Gujurat has really, really made a jump in the HDI rankings over the past 15 years, which corresponds to Modi’s governorship. RSS man or not, he knows his way around economic development.

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  71. In truth, interpersonal skills like collaboration, communication and empathy are vital to career success in technology.

    Collaboration is one of those buzwords used by women and others who just want to talk about writing code and don’t have the skills to actually do it.

    In truth, a lot of what those nerds do these days is understanding, and then modifying/improving other men’s code. This is collaboration, separated, of course, by time and space.

    I write a very large amount of code by myself but I collaborate with lots of other people in doing so, some of whom work on the same code, some of whom work on other code and some of whom don’t work on the code at all.

    And empathy? Give me a break. When I review someone else’s code there is no time for empathy. If it is wrong, it is wrong. If it is crap, it is crap and if they keep producing crap there is no place for them.

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  72. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @27 year old
    >One school of thought in the alt-right has been “no enemies to the right”. That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, et

    Can you elaborate on this?

    A disaster in what way?

    You know how #BlackLivesMatter violence was a disaster for Dems? In that way.

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    • Replies: @guest
    BLM perpetrated violence.

    The violence you saw in Charlottesville was perpetrated upon otherwise peaceful protesters. The MSM won't allow that to be the story, obviously. But for those with eyes to see, we know the enemy and various civil authorities won't allow us to demonstrate in public. Free speech is only for goodthinkers.

    Normal people see this, and maybe they Notice. The more who Notice, the more join us and become active, and the more gets done.

    Not everyone is distracted by Nazi flags and mayhem that wouldn't exist if people laid back and let the iconoclasts have their way. Some people see protests that would be perfectly legal and peaceful without thugs and stormtroopers beating on people.
    , @Jack Hanson
    Youre equivocating a fracas with multiple riots across cities, multiple dead PD, and we don't even know much millions of dollars of damages?

    I see Rich Lowry wasn't the only person who got gelded yesterday.
  73. res says:
    @Peripatetic commenter
    Does writing code that writes code (that works) count?

    What multiplier would you give me for each KLOC written by my code generator?

    Does writing code that writes code (that works) count?

    Asking that question means my earlier questions are probably irrelevant for you ; )

    What multiplier would you give me for each KLOC written by my code generator?

    As you probably know, that is an extremely interesting question. First though, would you base it on lines of code written by your code generator or lines of “code” in your code generator and its inputs?

    FWIW I’m not a big fan of LOC as a metric. Too much fuzziness because of different languages, coding styles, what actually gets counted, etc. The real point of my LOC question was trying to get an idea of program complexity dealt with. Code generation is nice because it keeps the amount of information that has to be actively maintained down, helps minimize redundancy, and can simplify massive changes.

    Read More
  74. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Mr. Anon

    There is no alternative to ‘no enemies to the right’. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won’t make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream.
     
    It does however make sense to have a policy of "no allies who are stupid". And waving swastika flags at an event designed to gain visibility for your movement is pretty stupid. Nazism is a proven loser. If the alt-right doesn't realize that, then they aren't as smart as they think they are, and won't be as influential as they hope to be. Actually, I wonder how many of the 1488 crowd in attendance were on the FBI payroll. Not all of them, I suspect, or even most of them. But I would not be surprised if a few of them are.

    In any WN/WP gathering anyone waving a swastika or the KKK logo is even money to be one of two things: a Fed or ADL/SPLC plant, or a certified nutcase. Ditto anyone with the Northwest tricolor outside of the Northwest area itself.

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  75. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonym
    There is no alternative to ‘no enemies to the right’. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won’t make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn’t to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    Exactly, we will never get mainstream approval. We've had half a century of being Charlie Brown trying to kick Lucy's football of "mainstream approval". The goal is to shift the Overton window in an anti-immigrationist, pro-white direction.

    My guess is that Steve is waiting until he can read enough on the C_ville subject to say something that complies with his TINF objectives - True, Interesting, New, or Funny, I think it was.

    You got to kick the football last November — you don’t remember?

    Why fumble it now?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kevin C.

    You got to kick the football last November — you don’t remember?
     
    Talking as if presidential elections matter.
    , @Anonym
    You got to kick the football last November — you don’t remember?

    Still waiting for that "mainstream approval" thing, which I guess is something the MSM confers. Evidently Trump has mainstream electoral approval. It hasn't stopped the muh Russia impeach claptrap from the MSM.

    I put this in the Dylan Roof category. Dylan Roof didn't derail the Trump Train and neither will this. It's a statistical anomaly. Other than that, we have a right to protest just as much as the Million Man March did.

    As for the "Nazis" I bet most work for the government in a COINTELPRO capacity. When the left starts noticing and denouncing en masse the hammer and sickle wavers of their own, maybe I will revisit the topic.
  76. Kevin C. says:
    @Samuel Skinner
    There is no alternative to 'no enemies to the right'. Attack Nazis for socialism if you want, but getting rid of Nazis won't make the Alt-Right more palatable to the mainstream. The goal isn't to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    The goal isn’t to get the mainstreams approval. It is to get the mainstream willing to fight your enemies or not prevent you from fighting them.

    And what makes you think that’s achievable?

    Read More
  77. Kevin C. says:
    @Johnny Smoggins
    I'm with Heartiste; what Google (and the rest of Silicon Valley) needs is a black woman CEO. We should be demanding it.

    I think one of Alinsky's rules for radicals was force the enemy to live up to its own standards.

    I think one of Alinsky’s rules for radicals was force the enemy to live up to its own standards.

    That requires the enemy to have actual standards, to which they may be held, rather than pure “who, whom.”

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  78. Kevin C. says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    You got to kick the football last November -- you don't remember?

    Why fumble it now?

    You got to kick the football last November — you don’t remember?

    Talking as if presidential elections matter.

    Read More
  79. guest says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Charlottesville is a pretty big deal, actually.

    One school of thought in the alt-right has been "no enemies to the right". That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, etc.

    So a lot of the commentary on the right has been denunciations and distancing.

    But Varad Mehta, because his name is Varad Mehta, doesn't have to bother with that. So, instead, he produced the best tweet storm on it.

    https://twitter.com/varadmehta/status/896499004279750656

    You’re sweating Nazi flags? Really? Just roll over and let PC-dom do whatever it wants to you, then.

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  80. guest says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    The alternative is winning elections, like Trump did.
    https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/896515474665746437

    One man’s riot is another man’s cops beating up on peaceful people for no good reason.

    But you’re right, Miller. The alt-right really oughtta drip the targeted assassination of cops. It’s so counter-productive electorally.

    Wait a minute, they’re not committing terrorism. They just showing up to do what they got a permit to do ahead of time, before it was pulled for political reasons, then they were beset upon by thugs and cops for political reasons.

    Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I guess.

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  81. guest says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    You know how #BlackLivesMatter violence was a disaster for Dems? In that way.

    BLM perpetrated violence.

    The violence you saw in Charlottesville was perpetrated upon otherwise peaceful protesters. The MSM won’t allow that to be the story, obviously. But for those with eyes to see, we know the enemy and various civil authorities won’t allow us to demonstrate in public. Free speech is only for goodthinkers.

    Normal people see this, and maybe they Notice. The more who Notice, the more join us and become active, and the more gets done.

    Not everyone is distracted by Nazi flags and mayhem that wouldn’t exist if people laid back and let the iconoclasts have their way. Some people see protests that would be perfectly legal and peaceful without thugs and stormtroopers beating on people.

    Read More
  82. Anonym says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    You got to kick the football last November -- you don't remember?

    Why fumble it now?

    You got to kick the football last November — you don’t remember?

    Still waiting for that “mainstream approval” thing, which I guess is something the MSM confers. Evidently Trump has mainstream electoral approval. It hasn’t stopped the muh Russia impeach claptrap from the MSM.

    I put this in the Dylan Roof category. Dylan Roof didn’t derail the Trump Train and neither will this. It’s a statistical anomaly. Other than that, we have a right to protest just as much as the Million Man March did.

    As for the “Nazis” I bet most work for the government in a COINTELPRO capacity. When the left starts noticing and denouncing en masse the hammer and sickle wavers of their own, maybe I will revisit the topic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Dylan Roof was a loner; this happened at a huge rally. That's an obvious difference.

    You can allege that the guys holding the swastika flags were government infiltrators and argue that there's a double standard about hammer & sickle flags all you like, but Nazi symbols are still political kryptonite in America, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. Not a problem for LARPers who thrive on transgression, but it's a problem for the political right.
  83. Ivy says:
    @Kevin C.

    I think one of Alinsky’s rules for radicals was force the enemy to live up to its own standards.
     
    That requires the enemy to have actual standards, to which they may be held, rather than pure "who, whom."

    Moving goal posts and all that.

    Read More
  84. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonym
    You got to kick the football last November — you don’t remember?

    Still waiting for that "mainstream approval" thing, which I guess is something the MSM confers. Evidently Trump has mainstream electoral approval. It hasn't stopped the muh Russia impeach claptrap from the MSM.

    I put this in the Dylan Roof category. Dylan Roof didn't derail the Trump Train and neither will this. It's a statistical anomaly. Other than that, we have a right to protest just as much as the Million Man March did.

    As for the "Nazis" I bet most work for the government in a COINTELPRO capacity. When the left starts noticing and denouncing en masse the hammer and sickle wavers of their own, maybe I will revisit the topic.

    Dylan Roof was a loner; this happened at a huge rally. That’s an obvious difference.

    You can allege that the guys holding the swastika flags were government infiltrators and argue that there’s a double standard about hammer & sickle flags all you like, but Nazi symbols are still political kryptonite in America, and that’s not likely to change anytime soon. Not a problem for LARPers who thrive on transgression, but it’s a problem for the political right.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonym
    How do you plan to control any of this? What is your proposal? You can't control who joins a protest and you can't control a lone nut.

    On the bright side, I really liked the "You will not replace us!" slogan.
  85. Medvedev says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    It’s not either it compiles or not. A lot harder and trickier, most of the time there is multiple solutions to the same problem with different efficiency/complexity.

    As for the Indians:
    1. They are drawn from a pool of 1.3 billions people, not from a pool of average IQ.
    2. Here are the results of coding competition among high-schoolers:

    http://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2016

    China, Russia, Japan, Poland, Taiwan, Czechia among the top countries. India (1.3 bln) lags behind Bulgaria (7 million). Even with such a huge population Indians are behind if you get highly g-loaded competition (topcoder, codefources, google code jam all dominated by the same countries).
    3. Programming doesn’t require you to be some kind of genius and it’s sufficient to be relatively smart, unless you are involved in hardcore research. And if it’s not the leading tech company or innovative startup the bar might be even lower. Turns out there are a lot sufficiently smart Indians to fill the positions + they are more proficient in English than Chinese or Russians.
    4. Cultural thing, their cultural traits help them to succeed in Western business environment where others will fail. Let me elaborate on this:
    What I learned, all this stuff “free thinking, leadership, thinking outside of the box, independent thinking etc” is a complete BS. If there is architectural question or requirement that doesn’t seem right:
    - most Americans are taught to think independently and point to the problem and disagree very politely.
    - Russian guys will disagree and often not in a polite way.
    - EAsian who grew up in America -> look how Americans would react.
    - EAsian who grew up in EAsia -> either disagree politely or try hard and hard and harder.
    - Indian will agree with the boss, promise to do staff, will get a workaround, may not do it efficiently, will do it partially (cause there was a problem to begin with, working on better requirements or design would be better, but boss is more pleased when dev agreed and went on with his idea even though it wasn’t 100% successful).
    The implementation may not be in the best interest of the company, but guess who will be rewarded?
    PS don’t get the idea that all engineers from certain country are this way. But there are traits that are more prevalent among certain cultures.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    They are 8.5% of the STEM PHDs. They also have satellites, nuclear weapons, and super computers. Which is pretty good for an abysmally poor country.

    It's true they have 1.3 billion people, but almost all of them live in dire poverty. So their intellectual talent is largely untapped. The H1bs are the cream of the few who are not impoverished.

    3. Programming doesn’t require you to be some kind of genius and it’s sufficient to be relatively smart, unless you are involved in hardcore research. And if it’s not the leading tech company or innovative startup the bar might be even lower. Turns out there are a lot sufficiently smart Indians to fill the positions + they are more proficient in English than Chinese or Russians.
     
    If they're more English proficient, it'd imply higher verbal IQ. Or at least comparable verbal IQ.


    4. Cultural thing, their cultural traits help them to succeed in Western business environment where others will fail. Let me elaborate on this:
    What I learned, all this stuff “free thinking, leadership, thinking outside of the box, independent thinking etc” is a complete BS. If there is architectural question or requirement that doesn’t seem right:
    - most Americans are taught to think independently and point to the problem and disagree very politely.
    - Russian guys will disagree and often not in a polite way.
    - EAsian who grew up in America -> look how Americans would react.
    - EAsian who grew up in EAsia -> either disagree politely or try hard and hard and harder.
    - Indian will agree with the boss, promise to do staff, will get a workaround, may not do it efficiently, will do it partially (cause there was a problem to begin with, working on better requirements or design would be better, but boss is more pleased when dev agreed and went on with his idea even though it wasn’t 100% successful).
    The implementation may not be in the best interest of the company, but guess who will be rewarded?
    PS don’t get the idea that all engineers from certain country are this way. But there are traits that are more prevalent among certain cultures.
     
    That sounds plausible. Indians are about 70% of H-1bs. There's no way that 70% of the world's smartest people are Indian. However, there's also no way that an 81 IQ country captures 70% of our tech visas.

    The Indians may not be Einsteins, but anything in the 80-90 IQ range is totally implausible. That just doesn't make sense.
  86. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    As Silly Valley is filled with anti-white globalists, I welcome this. Let Paos and her ilk take over and mess it all up.

    Let Madame Mao or Pao rule.

    Read More
  87. @Anonymous
    Here's another question: How bad are we stripmining India of its smart fractions of people?

    And what is the effect of this on India generally? It can't be good. It could be really bad, or it could be really, really bad.

    We're taking out of India all the people who 1) have any reason to be discontented with the generally shitty state of the country and 2) have any hope of making improvements.

    We are also, not that we necessarily care, very possibly enabling Caste Genocide-whole castes (or subcastes) are emigrating to the US, where they tend to outmarry at much higher rates and their kids will probably become Christians , atheists, or agnostics and say phooey to Hinduism. They might even start eating cows!

    Again, correctly, SJWs don't give a shit because they hate whitey worse than they care about anything else and will not be moved. But the great unwashed, and some Indians too (who are also generally unwashed, but that's a different bag of curry powder) may think about it. And from an Indian nationalist standpoint, it is indeed their version of white genocide.

    Here’s another question: How bad are we stripmining India of its smart fractions of people?

    The trendline of India’s GDP growth rate for the last 70 years suggests that immigration of members of their talented class has only a minimal impact.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-growth-annual

    Fewer than 100,000 Indians, including family members, get green cards in America each year. That’s a tiny, tiny fraction of even the talented tenth in India.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Fewer than 100,000 Indians, including family members, get green cards in America each year. That’s a tiny, tiny fraction of even the talented tenth in India.
     
    I'm with Derb here; that's about 100k too many.
  88. Nico says:
    @jim jones
    Only 36% of Indian Engineers can write code which actually compiles:

    https://www.scribd.com/document/345948744/National-Programming-Skills-Report-Engineers-2017-Report-Brief

    And I’m not certain their “engineering” credentials are up to the stuff of what accredited American engineering colleges turn out.

    Read More
  89. @Jack Hanson
    Are you planning on talking about what happened today in Cville or are you just going to bang on about golf courses and how SV is full of hypocrites for the umpteenth time?

    Was just David Duke and Richard Spencer retards along with Antifa up to their usual antics

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    Five people died and a helicopter crashed.

    Okay then.
  90. @Chrisnonymous
    There's a gap between Derbyshire and people carrying Nazi party flags. Spencer was in that gap. No enemies to the right for Derb and his embrace of Spencer means now he embraces pro-Nazi activists too.

    Also, murder and demonstrating lack of self-restraint are not things we endorse.

    I for one am not interested in an ID movement focused on whites going out in a blaze of glory. I'm interested in one that appeals to more whites--enough to be politically viable. Your actions have got to appeal to my mom and dad--long-time Buchanan-on-McLaughlin-Group fans who are still (for bad reasons) pro-GOP/pro-NR/pro-Neocon types. They should be brought into the fold, but I can't direct them to any alt-rightish material because of stunts like Cville.

    Aye, we need to break with them. And since we are, it’s really nbd. Just more Antifa retardation.

    Notice that even the Msm doesn’t dare label them as simply/only Trump supporters. Water off a duck’s back

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  91. Anonym says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Dylan Roof was a loner; this happened at a huge rally. That's an obvious difference.

    You can allege that the guys holding the swastika flags were government infiltrators and argue that there's a double standard about hammer & sickle flags all you like, but Nazi symbols are still political kryptonite in America, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. Not a problem for LARPers who thrive on transgression, but it's a problem for the political right.

    How do you plan to control any of this? What is your proposal? You can’t control who joins a protest and you can’t control a lone nut.

    On the bright side, I really liked the “You will not replace us!” slogan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    My proposal is to not hold rallies with neo-Nazis. If you can't keep them out, don't hold the rally.

    The election of Trump started the process of moving racial demographics into the Overton window; this "Unite The Right" fiasco pushes it in the opposite direction.
  92. Woman wins £360k payout after manager’s sexist comment in the office

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/woman-wins-360k-payout-after-managers-sexist-comment-in-the-office-a3600811.html

    The Court of Appeal heard how Ms Konczak suffered a mental breakdown after being told in 2007 that “women take things more emotionally than men, whilst men tend to forget things and move on.”

    Read More
  93. @AnotherDad
    Well timed comment Steve. This dovetails with a comment i've been meaning to make for a few days.

    I think there's a lot of folks who make a sort of sloppy association: women==superior social skills==better collaboration.

    [TL;DR -- men are actually better collaborators at scale.]

    Sam Sharma made that argument in a comment a few days back. Yonatan Zunger's middle point about engineering requiring people skills makes it to. (A quite valid point. I start off my Communications Merit Badge class driving this point home--to do anything of consequence you have to have good communication skills to get other people on board with your program.) Zunger is clever and careful. He keeps on message and always uses quotes around "female" to avoid the implication he believes in biological stereotypes. But the implication is that male nerds will flame out and women will excel do once the scale of the engineering moves out beyond what one guy can do in his office or lab. And in truth there are definitely a lot of nerdy (aspie) guys in tech who are abysmally poor at communication.

    However, this argument really misunderstands women's superior "social skills". Where women have the clear advantage is really in "inter-personal" skills--with the accent on the personal. Women are better at skills like reading faces and have more empathy. They really are superior doing things like say child care or nursing. They can probably do very well in sales for the right products. And they are fine managing small groups.

    However, there's very little evidence--like none--that women are superior *at scale*. That they are better at coordinating and getting everything lined up and everyone marching in the right direction to make some large project work. It simply isn't the case. Beyond the scale of say the tribal hen circle, women's "social skills" don't really scale. The problem is with women ... it really is personal.

    In contrast men do scale. They do it by teams, male-bonding and, to scale up, with hierarchy. Men are also better at putting aside the personal for a larger goal. Men can be competing--for status and leadership in a group--but keep that competition from derailing a larger cooperative goal. (E.g. surrounding the intruder tribe's camp, then rushing in to kill or drive off the men and grab up the women.) In fact throughout history men scaled up to even form alliances with foreign peoples whose languages they don't speak and customs they don't like in order to achieve big goals like annihilating a common enemy. Yes, another warfare analogy, but that's actually what corporate competition is analogous to--mobilizing all your efforts to get your superior product out there to beat your competitor. Then furthermore there's the issue that large engineering at scale also involves ... abstraction at scale. Abstraction--seeing this big picture puzzle of lots of moving pieces--is again something men just tend to be better at. Women prefer the personal and concrete--their project, their people.

    I can prattle on but that's the gist of it. Women are indeed different than men and superior in inter-personal skills. But the sort of corporate product building thing isn't really about strong "personal" relationships, it's about being able to do a bunch of precisely not-very-personal, we-don't-have-to-hug, collaborations with other people/groups on the basis of mutual interest and the ability to agree on logically/rationally on approaches/interfaces/timetables/procedures to get a larger job done.

    Think how much collaboration was required for something like the Manhattan project!

    It was heavily male.

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  94. @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    It’s clear you have never written code.

    Depending on the size of the project, the same person will communicate with the user, write and test the code, release in small doses to a selected group of users, get feedback: i.e. does the program do what you wanted? There may be several iterations, depending on the complexity.

    So there is some communication required.

    But it’s not “empathetic” style communicating. It’s not like you’re a psychologist trying to help them deal with life’s difficulties.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Mid-level and high-level coding assignments look like that. Low-level coding (the type H1bs often do) is much more basic - input/output.

    My point is that there's no way an 81 IQ country could produce so many people who can do even that type of coding. Even that basic coding requires some minimum level of competence.

    If you didn't know what the hell you were doing, you'd be fired quickly. It's not like a "softer" field (like HR), which you can sort of BS your way through.
  95. @candid_observer

    Code either compiles or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, you get fired. So it’s not accurate to claim they’re totally incompetent. If they’re dumb, the code wouldn’t work.
     
    You must never have written any code if you think getting code to compile is the sticking point. And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.

    And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.

    Really really important code gets JITted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, I would have to say that really, really important code gets written in assembler. However, you probably first want to look at other low-hanging fruit and make sure that you have chosen a correct algorithm and are not doing stupid O(N^2) or O(e^N) things.

    Finally, if you are using an interpreted language for really, really important stuff, like, say Lua, then you probably want to be using LuaJIT.
  96. @PiltdownMan

    Here’s another question: How bad are we stripmining India of its smart fractions of people?
     
    The trendline of India's GDP growth rate for the last 70 years suggests that immigration of members of their talented class has only a minimal impact.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-growth-annual


    Fewer than 100,000 Indians, including family members, get green cards in America each year. That's a tiny, tiny fraction of even the talented tenth in India.

    Fewer than 100,000 Indians, including family members, get green cards in America each year. That’s a tiny, tiny fraction of even the talented tenth in India.

    I’m with Derb here; that’s about 100k too many.

    Read More
  97. @Bill P
    Who cares about Charlottesville? It's like resurrecting the 1960s. Seen it all before -- total bore.

    We get it. CVille offends your boomer sensibilities, scares you, and so must be verboten.

    Read More
  98. @Difference maker
    Was just David Duke and Richard Spencer retards along with Antifa up to their usual antics

    Five people died and a helicopter crashed.

    Okay then.

    Read More
  99. @Dave Pinsen
    Charlottesville is a pretty big deal, actually.

    One school of thought in the alt-right has been "no enemies to the right". That ended up being an unmitigated disaster in Charlottesville today, with the loss of life plus the Nazi flags, etc.

    So a lot of the commentary on the right has been denunciations and distancing.

    But Varad Mehta, because his name is Varad Mehta, doesn't have to bother with that. So, instead, he produced the best tweet storm on it.

    https://twitter.com/varadmehta/status/896499004279750656

    There’s been a lot of cucks squealing about violence because their sinecures are under threat.

    More virtue signalling. What a shocker.

    Read More
  100. @Dave Pinsen
    You know how #BlackLivesMatter violence was a disaster for Dems? In that way.

    Youre equivocating a fracas with multiple riots across cities, multiple dead PD, and we don’t even know much millions of dollars of damages?

    I see Rich Lowry wasn’t the only person who got gelded yesterday.

    Read More
    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Learn what "equivocating" means before you use it next time.

    A young girl is dead and a right winger is in custody for killing her. You want to continue along this tack until the far right's body count climbs to BLM levels?
  101. Jack D says:

    This bait and switch seems to be the SJW theme of the week. It’s logical fallacies all the way down.

    1. Being a good coder requires “empathy”.

    2. Women have “empathy”.

    3. Therefore women are great coders, better than men who lack “empathy”.

    Except that the type of empathy that you need to be a great coder and the type of empathy that women have is not the same kind of empathy – the same word is used for two completely different things. And real world experience shows that #3 is false.

    As I said on the other thread, we need a better leadership class. Either these people are themselves simpletons who fall for simple logical fallacies or else they thing that we are stupid and will fall for such fallacies ourselves. Either way is bad.

    Read More
  102. prole says:
    @Clement Pulaski
    SJW's try to have it both ways: men and women are exactly the same, but supposedly feminine qualities like empathy are more important than masculine qualities

    AGREE, Feminists are lacking in logic.

    If women and males have identical traits , abilities and personalities why would adding female tech workers make Google more diverse ? Why do the trans-gendered claim that hormone treatments effect personality and desire ?

    Read More
  103. Forbes says:
    @anon
    "Computer programming was originally considered a woman’s job. They were programmers of the Eniac during World War II and at NASA, as shown in the film “Hidden Figures.” That began to change when programming professionalized in the 1960s. The stereotype of an eccentric genius who would rather work with machines than people was born, according to Nathan Ensmenger, a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry."

    For the men who created the ENIAC, it was natural to get the female computers to convert to code the computations that for decades they had been doing by hand. Women were't pioneers of programming.

    a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry

    Sounds like the definition of a specialist: Someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    Akin to that cat that chases its tail in decreasing radius circles until it disappears up its own...
  104. @Jim Don Bob

    And some important code is interpreted, not compiled, anyway.
     
    Really really important code gets JITted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation

    Well, I would have to say that really, really important code gets written in assembler. However, you probably first want to look at other low-hanging fruit and make sure that you have chosen a correct algorithm and are not doing stupid O(N^2) or O(e^N) things.

    Finally, if you are using an interpreted language for really, really important stuff, like, say Lua, then you probably want to be using LuaJIT.

    Read More
  105. Dmon says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Most basic level coding assignments involve your boss telling you to write a program that takes an input and gives a desired output. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't take genius level IQ to do it, but you can't be totally incompetent either.

    It's remarkable that super poor India can produce so many people that can do this work. One wonders if they had first world economic conditions, how many coders they could produce.

    Here's the computer science faculty at MIT. About 7% Indian.

    https://www.eecs.mit.edu/people/faculty-advisors

    Arrow of causality is backward. If a higher percentage of the population could code, they wouldn’t have 3rd world conditions.

    Read More
  106. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Jack Hanson
    Youre equivocating a fracas with multiple riots across cities, multiple dead PD, and we don't even know much millions of dollars of damages?

    I see Rich Lowry wasn't the only person who got gelded yesterday.

    Learn what “equivocating” means before you use it next time.

    A young girl is dead and a right winger is in custody for killing her. You want to continue along this tack until the far right’s body count climbs to BLM levels?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    While there are all sorts of claims about him, has the perp come out and claimed he supports any one political faction?

    Also, what happened to breaking eggs and making omelettes?

    , @AnotherDad

    A young girl is dead and a right winger is in custody for killing her. You want to continue along this tack until the far right’s body count climbs to BLM levels?
     
    Dave, i'm pretty much where you are on the optics of this.

    But--not to split hairs--but there isn't a "young girl" dead. "Girl" is even a stretch. She was a 32 year old woman who chose to be out there with the antifas to try and keep Spencer--or whoever it was exactly--from having their rally.

    That's what these people do. You know it, I know it.

    It sucks that a right winger did this. That annoys me, folks have to keep a cooler head. (I confess I lack a solution to this because these antifa thugs attack people and after they assaulted me, i'd probably want to run a bunch of 'em over myself. Trump should speak to this issue--the right to peacefully assemble.)

    However, i'm distinctly not in mourning for this woman. After the last few years of BLM, the "refugee" invasion, the election--i'm done with the "wish everyone well" nonsense. I wish these sort of people to die before they kill the West. If 100 million good thinkers woke up dead tomorrow--including some of my friends and relatives--and the West was saved as a result, I wouldn't shed a tear. The survival of the West and the white race is more important--orders of magnitude more important--than these people's lives.
  107. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonym
    How do you plan to control any of this? What is your proposal? You can't control who joins a protest and you can't control a lone nut.

    On the bright side, I really liked the "You will not replace us!" slogan.

    My proposal is to not hold rallies with neo-Nazis. If you can’t keep them out, don’t hold the rally.

    The election of Trump started the process of moving racial demographics into the Overton window; this “Unite The Right” fiasco pushes it in the opposite direction.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    Dave shamefully wringing his hands so hard he's got smoke rising from them.

    "WE GOTTA CEDE EVERYTHING GUYS SO WE CAN KEEP WHAT WE HAVE."

    L M B O
    , @Anonym
    The election of Trump started the process of moving racial demographics into the Overton window; this “Unite The Right” fiasco pushes it in the opposite direction

    I guess I don't see it that way. I see the election of Trump as a manifestation of a movement that has occurred in response to PC and mass non-white immigration into every white country - the program of race replacement. Trump himself has alluded to being the messenger multiple times. Maybe not of that specifically but a citizenist presidency is a stepping stone away from anti-white politics.

    A decade ago, many countries were well and truly on their way to being pozzed, but the citizens of each country didn't realize that the poz was not specific to their own country, it was part of a greater phenomenon. Now there is that realization. People talk. People are networked. People are pissed off beyond measure. None of that occurred because of Trump. Without it, neither Trump nor Brexit would have had any hope of positive election results.

    The "pro tip" is this - if you (not you specifically but TPTB) don't like Nazis, then don't create a world that is worse to the one that the Nazis would have created had they won (limited to Europe basically). Pogroms of Jews - it's not nice, though it's also not nice to attempt to bring about bloodthirsty Marxist revolutions. A slow-poisoning pogrom of my kind and creating a situation where my children and grandchildren may be in a war? Objectively less nice in every way.

    If it was my own rally, no, I don't think the optics are the best but this one event is not going to cause the millions of us out here to say "Whoa, I was on the fence but race replacement is now awesome, please proceed apace."
  108. @Dave Pinsen
    My proposal is to not hold rallies with neo-Nazis. If you can't keep them out, don't hold the rally.

    The election of Trump started the process of moving racial demographics into the Overton window; this "Unite The Right" fiasco pushes it in the opposite direction.

    Dave shamefully wringing his hands so hard he’s got smoke rising from them.

    “WE GOTTA CEDE EVERYTHING GUYS SO WE CAN KEEP WHAT WE HAVE.”

    L M B O

    Read More
  109. Anonym says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    My proposal is to not hold rallies with neo-Nazis. If you can't keep them out, don't hold the rally.

    The election of Trump started the process of moving racial demographics into the Overton window; this "Unite The Right" fiasco pushes it in the opposite direction.

    The election of Trump started the process of moving racial demographics into the Overton window; this “Unite The Right” fiasco pushes it in the opposite direction

    I guess I don’t see it that way. I see the election of Trump as a manifestation of a movement that has occurred in response to PC and mass non-white immigration into every white country – the program of race replacement. Trump himself has alluded to being the messenger multiple times. Maybe not of that specifically but a citizenist presidency is a stepping stone away from anti-white politics.

    A decade ago, many countries were well and truly on their way to being pozzed, but the citizens of each country didn’t realize that the poz was not specific to their own country, it was part of a greater phenomenon. Now there is that realization. People talk. People are networked. People are pissed off beyond measure. None of that occurred because of Trump. Without it, neither Trump nor Brexit would have had any hope of positive election results.

    The “pro tip” is this – if you (not you specifically but TPTB) don’t like Nazis, then don’t create a world that is worse to the one that the Nazis would have created had they won (limited to Europe basically). Pogroms of Jews – it’s not nice, though it’s also not nice to attempt to bring about bloodthirsty Marxist revolutions. A slow-poisoning pogrom of my kind and creating a situation where my children and grandchildren may be in a war? Objectively less nice in every way.

    If it was my own rally, no, I don’t think the optics are the best but this one event is not going to cause the millions of us out here to say “Whoa, I was on the fence but race replacement is now awesome, please proceed apace.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I think #BlackLivesMatter is a decent analogy to the #UniteTheRight, as I mentioned on Twitter. Let's say you were against police brutality, especially against blacks. Then you see the violence caused by BLM. It doesn't mean that you're now in favor of police brutality, but maybe you're so disgusted that you withdraw from it.



    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/896932658172833792
  110. @Dave Pinsen
    Learn what "equivocating" means before you use it next time.

    A young girl is dead and a right winger is in custody for killing her. You want to continue along this tack until the far right's body count climbs to BLM levels?

    While there are all sorts of claims about him, has the perp come out and claimed he supports any one political faction?

    Also, what happened to breaking eggs and making omelettes?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    At some point he also lived inUnion, Ky., where he was a quiet student but had “radical ideas on race,” history teacher Derek Weimer told the WCPO news channel in Cincinnati.

    “He was very infatuated with the Nazis, with Adolf Hitler,” Weimer told WCPO. “He also had a huge military history, especially with German military history and World War II. But, he was pretty infatuated with that stuff.”
     

    Source.

    What kind of omelet do you want this kid to make for you?

  111. @Jack Hanson
    Are you planning on talking about what happened today in Cville or are you just going to bang on about golf courses and how SV is full of hypocrites for the umpteenth time?

    Kinder, gentler, nurturing algorithms, made with love by dedicated girlycoders, would have prevented C’ville’s toxic-masculinity testosterstorm.

    Read More
  112. @anon
    "Computer programming was originally considered a woman’s job. They were programmers of the Eniac during World War II and at NASA, as shown in the film “Hidden Figures.” That began to change when programming professionalized in the 1960s. The stereotype of an eccentric genius who would rather work with machines than people was born, according to Nathan Ensmenger, a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry."

    For the men who created the ENIAC, it was natural to get the female computers to convert to code the computations that for decades they had been doing by hand. Women were't pioneers of programming.

    Those ladies weren’t engaging in “programming” as we understand it today. Their role was to do what today is done by an automated software component known as the loader.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    Indeed, and the A-0 "compiler" that Grace Murray Hopper worked on was a linker/loader:

    http://history-computer.com/ModernComputer/Software/FirstCompiler.html
  113. @International Jew
    Those ladies weren't engaging in "programming" as we understand it today. Their role was to do what today is done by an automated software component known as the loader.

    Indeed, and the A-0 “compiler” that Grace Murray Hopper worked on was a linker/loader:

    http://history-computer.com/ModernComputer/Software/FirstCompiler.html

    Read More
  114. @Frau Katze
    It's clear you have never written code.

    Depending on the size of the project, the same person will communicate with the user, write and test the code, release in small doses to a selected group of users, get feedback: i.e. does the program do what you wanted? There may be several iterations, depending on the complexity.

    So there is some communication required.

    But it's not "empathetic" style communicating. It's not like you're a psychologist trying to help them deal with life's difficulties.

    Mid-level and high-level coding assignments look like that. Low-level coding (the type H1bs often do) is much more basic – input/output.

    My point is that there’s no way an 81 IQ country could produce so many people who can do even that type of coding. Even that basic coding requires some minimum level of competence.

    If you didn’t know what the hell you were doing, you’d be fired quickly. It’s not like a “softer” field (like HR), which you can sort of BS your way through.

    Read More
  115. Ivy says:
    @Forbes

    a historian at Indiana University who studies the cultural history of the software industry
     
    Sounds like the definition of a specialist: Someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing.

    Akin to that cat that chases its tail in decreasing radius circles until it disappears up its own…

    Read More
  116. @Medvedev
    It's not either it compiles or not. A lot harder and trickier, most of the time there is multiple solutions to the same problem with different efficiency/complexity.

    As for the Indians:
    1. They are drawn from a pool of 1.3 billions people, not from a pool of average IQ.
    2. Here are the results of coding competition among high-schoolers:
    http://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2016
    China, Russia, Japan, Poland, Taiwan, Czechia among the top countries. India (1.3 bln) lags behind Bulgaria (7 million). Even with such a huge population Indians are behind if you get highly g-loaded competition (topcoder, codefources, google code jam all dominated by the same countries).
    3. Programming doesn't require you to be some kind of genius and it's sufficient to be relatively smart, unless you are involved in hardcore research. And if it's not the leading tech company or innovative startup the bar might be even lower. Turns out there are a lot sufficiently smart Indians to fill the positions + they are more proficient in English than Chinese or Russians.
    4. Cultural thing, their cultural traits help them to succeed in Western business environment where others will fail. Let me elaborate on this:
    What I learned, all this stuff "free thinking, leadership, thinking outside of the box, independent thinking etc" is a complete BS. If there is architectural question or requirement that doesn't seem right:
    - most Americans are taught to think independently and point to the problem and disagree very politely.
    - Russian guys will disagree and often not in a polite way.
    - EAsian who grew up in America -> look how Americans would react.
    - EAsian who grew up in EAsia -> either disagree politely or try hard and hard and harder.
    - Indian will agree with the boss, promise to do staff, will get a workaround, may not do it efficiently, will do it partially (cause there was a problem to begin with, working on better requirements or design would be better, but boss is more pleased when dev agreed and went on with his idea even though it wasn't 100% successful).
    The implementation may not be in the best interest of the company, but guess who will be rewarded?
    PS don't get the idea that all engineers from certain country are this way. But there are traits that are more prevalent among certain cultures.

    They are 8.5% of the STEM PHDs. They also have satellites, nuclear weapons, and super computers. Which is pretty good for an abysmally poor country.

    It’s true they have 1.3 billion people, but almost all of them live in dire poverty. So their intellectual talent is largely untapped. The H1bs are the cream of the few who are not impoverished.

    3. Programming doesn’t require you to be some kind of genius and it’s sufficient to be relatively smart, unless you are involved in hardcore research. And if it’s not the leading tech company or innovative startup the bar might be even lower. Turns out there are a lot sufficiently smart Indians to fill the positions + they are more proficient in English than Chinese or Russians.

    If they’re more English proficient, it’d imply higher verbal IQ. Or at least comparable verbal IQ.

    4. Cultural thing, their cultural traits help them to succeed in Western business environment where others will fail. Let me elaborate on this:
    What I learned, all this stuff “free thinking, leadership, thinking outside of the box, independent thinking etc” is a complete BS. If there is architectural question or requirement that doesn’t seem right:
    - most Americans are taught to think independently and point to the problem and disagree very politely.
    - Russian guys will disagree and often not in a polite way.
    - EAsian who grew up in America -> look how Americans would react.
    - EAsian who grew up in EAsia -> either disagree politely or try hard and hard and harder.
    - Indian will agree with the boss, promise to do staff, will get a workaround, may not do it efficiently, will do it partially (cause there was a problem to begin with, working on better requirements or design would be better, but boss is more pleased when dev agreed and went on with his idea even though it wasn’t 100% successful).
    The implementation may not be in the best interest of the company, but guess who will be rewarded?
    PS don’t get the idea that all engineers from certain country are this way. But there are traits that are more prevalent among certain cultures.

    That sounds plausible. Indians are about 70% of H-1bs. There’s no way that 70% of the world’s smartest people are Indian. However, there’s also no way that an 81 IQ country captures 70% of our tech visas.

    The Indians may not be Einsteins, but anything in the 80-90 IQ range is totally implausible. That just doesn’t make sense.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res

    If they’re more English proficient, it’d imply higher verbal IQ. Or at least comparable verbal IQ.
     
    Or an English colonial history. Come on JohnnyWalker123, you are better than that.
    , @Anonymous
    It would be impossible if H-1Bs were randomly selected across India's population.

    But if one looks at it as a selected "draft" of specified subsets of India's micro-stratified society, with a billion population overall, it makes sense. The average H-1B hire is a mediocre programmer, but all the companies that hire them find that adequate for the positions for which they hire them.

    The entire computer industry, since the seventies has been based on the idea that hardware will get cheaper , bigger, and faster forever while communications get faster and cheaper forever. Therefore turning out a lot of code makes money, it does not have to be elegant or very well proven.

    Looking back if we had taxed computers as cars were taxed on weight, horsepower or displacement, we'd have much better programming paradigms.
  117. @res
    How about a link to the data source itself? And 50 year old data is pretty stale at this point. I assume India has experienced major changes in environment over that time.

    For years, nearly every HBDer claimed that the Brahmins were a high IQ super elite in India. Based on what data, I don’t know.
     
    Part of the reason is probably Brahmin overrepresentation in US tech companies.

    Here's some discussion. I'm not sure how seriously to take it: https://pumpkinperson.com/2014/09/29/caste-iq-in-india/
    Some more from iSteve based on the same rec1man source I think: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html

    Both those links are based on the analysis of Rec1Man. He’s a self-identified Indian Brahmin poster who claims the Brahmins are a super high IQ (110-120 IQ, depending on the region of the Brahmin’s location) over class.

    His caste-IQ estimates are at odds with the data from the Indian sociologists.

    The data may be 50 years old, but it’s based on a decent sample size. Do you think that upper castes would’ve become a lot smarter since then?

    I tried doing some research on caste&IQ. The data I found did show upper castes did better on IQ-related tests, but some of the studies suggested socioeconomic factors were responsible for the variation.

    Also, there are many Indian/Paki subcontinentals in the UK. A large fraction are the descendants of peasant laborers, while others are the children of professionals.

    Here’s some academic data of their student performance.

    The Tamils (who are the descendants of refugees from Sri Lanka) substantially outperform the national average. The Nepalis (who are mainly the children of soldiers in the UK army) are the average. The Bengalis (who come from a backward region of Bangladesh) are only slightly below average. The Punjabis (who are mainly descended from agricultural-region migrants) are also slightly below the average.

    Here’s some more data.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for the data. As I noted, I'm really not sure about rec1man's conclusions (I tend to agree with you that they are high, but without evidence). However, he seems to have thought about it much more than I have (and is likely biased as you note). I just wish he included more about how he arrived at his conclusions and any underlying data he used.

    Let's take a step back for a moment. India is exceptional in a number of ways. Both good and bad. It says a great deal that we actually don't have good current data about IQ in India.

    Do you think that upper castes would’ve become a lot smarter since then?
     
    No. As I think you are implying I would have thought the relative performance of the lower castes would have improved since then. I don't know enough about Indian sociology to understand the correlation between caste and class in practice and I think that would have a major impact on the relative environments experienced.
  118. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Jack Hanson
    Dave shamefully wringing his hands so hard he's got smoke rising from them.

    "WE GOTTA CEDE EVERYTHING GUYS SO WE CAN KEEP WHAT WE HAVE."

    L M B O
    Read More
  119. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Peripatetic commenter
    While there are all sorts of claims about him, has the perp come out and claimed he supports any one political faction?

    Also, what happened to breaking eggs and making omelettes?

    At some point he also lived inUnion, Ky., where he was a quiet student but had “radical ideas on race,” history teacher Derek Weimer told the WCPO news channel in Cincinnati.

    “He was very infatuated with the Nazis, with Adolf Hitler,” Weimer told WCPO. “He also had a huge military history, especially with German military history and World War II. But, he was pretty infatuated with that stuff.”

    Source.

    What kind of omelet do you want this kid to make for you?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    Ha ha ha. Everything is racially charged according to the Lying MSM.

    Meanwhile they don't bother telling you the truth about mass shootings in America:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
  120. @Dave Pinsen

    At some point he also lived inUnion, Ky., where he was a quiet student but had “radical ideas on race,” history teacher Derek Weimer told the WCPO news channel in Cincinnati.

    “He was very infatuated with the Nazis, with Adolf Hitler,” Weimer told WCPO. “He also had a huge military history, especially with German military history and World War II. But, he was pretty infatuated with that stuff.”
     

    Source.

    What kind of omelet do you want this kid to make for you?

    Ha ha ha. Everything is racially charged according to the Lying MSM.

    Meanwhile they don’t bother telling you the truth about mass shootings in America:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

    Read More
  121. res says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    They are 8.5% of the STEM PHDs. They also have satellites, nuclear weapons, and super computers. Which is pretty good for an abysmally poor country.

    It's true they have 1.3 billion people, but almost all of them live in dire poverty. So their intellectual talent is largely untapped. The H1bs are the cream of the few who are not impoverished.

    3. Programming doesn’t require you to be some kind of genius and it’s sufficient to be relatively smart, unless you are involved in hardcore research. And if it’s not the leading tech company or innovative startup the bar might be even lower. Turns out there are a lot sufficiently smart Indians to fill the positions + they are more proficient in English than Chinese or Russians.
     
    If they're more English proficient, it'd imply higher verbal IQ. Or at least comparable verbal IQ.


    4. Cultural thing, their cultural traits help them to succeed in Western business environment where others will fail. Let me elaborate on this:
    What I learned, all this stuff “free thinking, leadership, thinking outside of the box, independent thinking etc” is a complete BS. If there is architectural question or requirement that doesn’t seem right:
    - most Americans are taught to think independently and point to the problem and disagree very politely.
    - Russian guys will disagree and often not in a polite way.
    - EAsian who grew up in America -> look how Americans would react.
    - EAsian who grew up in EAsia -> either disagree politely or try hard and hard and harder.
    - Indian will agree with the boss, promise to do staff, will get a workaround, may not do it efficiently, will do it partially (cause there was a problem to begin with, working on better requirements or design would be better, but boss is more pleased when dev agreed and went on with his idea even though it wasn’t 100% successful).
    The implementation may not be in the best interest of the company, but guess who will be rewarded?
    PS don’t get the idea that all engineers from certain country are this way. But there are traits that are more prevalent among certain cultures.
     
    That sounds plausible. Indians are about 70% of H-1bs. There's no way that 70% of the world's smartest people are Indian. However, there's also no way that an 81 IQ country captures 70% of our tech visas.

    The Indians may not be Einsteins, but anything in the 80-90 IQ range is totally implausible. That just doesn't make sense.

    If they’re more English proficient, it’d imply higher verbal IQ. Or at least comparable verbal IQ.

    Or an English colonial history. Come on JohnnyWalker123, you are better than that.

    Read More
  122. res says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Both those links are based on the analysis of Rec1Man. He's a self-identified Indian Brahmin poster who claims the Brahmins are a super high IQ (110-120 IQ, depending on the region of the Brahmin's location) over class.

    His caste-IQ estimates are at odds with the data from the Indian sociologists.

    The data may be 50 years old, but it's based on a decent sample size. Do you think that upper castes would've become a lot smarter since then?

    I tried doing some research on caste&IQ. The data I found did show upper castes did better on IQ-related tests, but some of the studies suggested socioeconomic factors were responsible for the variation.

    Also, there are many Indian/Paki subcontinentals in the UK. A large fraction are the descendants of peasant laborers, while others are the children of professionals.

    Here's some academic data of their student performance.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/886691620695003136

    The Tamils (who are the descendants of refugees from Sri Lanka) substantially outperform the national average. The Nepalis (who are mainly the children of soldiers in the UK army) are the average. The Bengalis (who come from a backward region of Bangladesh) are only slightly below average. The Punjabis (who are mainly descended from agricultural-region migrants) are also slightly below the average.

    Here's some more data.

    http://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Chisala-4.png

    Thanks for the data. As I noted, I’m really not sure about rec1man’s conclusions (I tend to agree with you that they are high, but without evidence). However, he seems to have thought about it much more than I have (and is likely biased as you note). I just wish he included more about how he arrived at his conclusions and any underlying data he used.

    Let’s take a step back for a moment. India is exceptional in a number of ways. Both good and bad. It says a great deal that we actually don’t have good current data about IQ in India.

    Do you think that upper castes would’ve become a lot smarter since then?

    No. As I think you are implying I would have thought the relative performance of the lower castes would have improved since then. I don’t know enough about Indian sociology to understand the correlation between caste and class in practice and I think that would have a major impact on the relative environments experienced.

    Read More
  123. @Dave Pinsen
    Learn what "equivocating" means before you use it next time.

    A young girl is dead and a right winger is in custody for killing her. You want to continue along this tack until the far right's body count climbs to BLM levels?

    A young girl is dead and a right winger is in custody for killing her. You want to continue along this tack until the far right’s body count climbs to BLM levels?

    Dave, i’m pretty much where you are on the optics of this.

    But–not to split hairs–but there isn’t a “young girl” dead. “Girl” is even a stretch. She was a 32 year old woman who chose to be out there with the antifas to try and keep Spencer–or whoever it was exactly–from having their rally.

    That’s what these people do. You know it, I know it.

    It sucks that a right winger did this. That annoys me, folks have to keep a cooler head. (I confess I lack a solution to this because these antifa thugs attack people and after they assaulted me, i’d probably want to run a bunch of ‘em over myself. Trump should speak to this issue–the right to peacefully assemble.)

    However, i’m distinctly not in mourning for this woman. After the last few years of BLM, the “refugee” invasion, the election–i’m done with the “wish everyone well” nonsense. I wish these sort of people to die before they kill the West. If 100 million good thinkers woke up dead tomorrow–including some of my friends and relatives–and the West was saved as a result, I wouldn’t shed a tear. The survival of the West and the white race is more important–orders of magnitude more important–than these people’s lives.

    Read More
  124. @JohnnyWalker123
    Someone explain this. If Indians have an average IQ of 81, how are they taking over the H1b racket?

    Code either compiles or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you get fired. So it's not accurate to claim they're totally incompetent. If they're dumb, the code wouldn't work.

    A lot of HBDers claim there's a huge IQ gap between the upper and lower caste Indians. It's supposedly the higher castes who produce all that code, while the low caste masses are totally incompetent in comparison.

    Except that's not true. See below quote.

    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.
     
    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    Indian IQ would appear to be another topic on which HBDers are, once again, totally wrong about.

    Such confident cluelessness.

    You’ve got one data point–one paper, from one guy, from one sample, 50 years ago … and now you “know” about India’s IQ distribution and are shedding your light of knowledge upon us idiot HBDers. Thanks.

    Thought experiment:
    You and I trot into a mid-range, ho-hum high school in Bombay. A range of kids from various jati are there and we can–sort of–toss them into the four or five big caste buckets. I look at those buckets and … ah the kids in those buckets are +/- reasonably similar in grades and test scores. You cry out, IQ caste stratification does not exist! Indians are all the same! You are a fool.

    The problem, of course, is selection bias. Who is in the high school? How representative are they for their caste group for all of India.

    If we really encountered this scenario, and then I got some more data about performance of this high school relative to all India and started doing a bunch of math, I might come up with model something like this:
    – Dalits — 90%tile of Dalits nationwide
    – Shudra — 80%
    – Vaishya — 40%
    – Brahmin — 30%

    The Dalit and Shudra families who got themselves positioned to send their kids to this high school were pretty on the ball and their kids good enough students to merit the effort/expense. The Brahmin and Vaishya kids were pretty ho-hum. Their parents not particularly successful for their caste and their kids not exceptional enough to warrant better.

    Selection bias is a huge factor. It utterly dominates any analysis of immigrants. (Ex. the laughable nonsense from Chanda Chisala.) But it can even be significant for nominally representative samples like the PISA tests depending on just how much how was really done to get a representative sample and how much “special needs” exclusion was done.

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  125. @Anon7
    From an earlier iSteve article

    India
    Current IQ

    Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ
    Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ
    Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ
    Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ
    Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ
    Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ
    Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
    Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ
    Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html

    Johnny Walker and I actually agree on this one. RecMan’s numbers are garbage–obvious garbage.

    For starters, even Brahmins in the US don’t have a 120 mean IQ. They are highly selected and smart and have the highest incomes of any ethnic group–a bunch of that from immigrant drive and hustle–but they still aren’t all that. (The actual immigrants in STEM, coming for masters degrees are in that ballpark, but the full immigrant pool is broader than that including wives, and then the kids get some regression to the mean.)

    Furthermore, though a small percentage of India–maybe 5%?–there are a lot of Brahmins and they’ve been prominent in India’s civil administration from the get go. If they are really a near genius population then it’s hard to explain the continual sheer mediocrity of India including its inability to organize even its basic public services very well.

    And the muslim number is low. That’s just good old muslim bashing. The muslim community is no doubt low IQ. A lot of converts came from the lower castes who had a crappy deal under Hinduism and Islam at least delivered better hope and self-respect. (And Islam itself knocks about 5 points off IQ.) But there was massive defection to the religion of the rulers across many layers of society. And they didn’t all–or even most–leave for Pakistan. You don’t throw up the scientists (e.g. Abdul Kalam) from a 75 IQ population.

    Another Dad stab at some more realistic numbers:
    – Brahmin — 104 (equivalent to Chinese but skewed more verbal)
    – Vaishya — 98 (equivalent to whites, with some particularly smarter sub-castes)
    – Shudra — 83 now, 90 non-repressed
    – Muslims — 83 now, 90 non-repressed (less a coherent population, more a collection)
    – Dalit — 75 now, 85 non-repressed
    – Tribal — 70 now, 80 non-repressed

    All India–85ish now, similar to the African-American number. India’s far inferior performance on PISA due to poor schooling in India. (African-Americans have the huge benefit–across all spheres of life–of living in a white organized society … then whine about it.)

    My guess is that if India could address the nutritional and schooling deficiencies–essentially move up the Flynn curve–that their actual current genotypic IQ is something around 90, similar to other West Asian places. (Pulled down by tribals and peasant caste backwardness, pulled up by long civilization and literacy of some castes.)

    However, a big problem for India is that it is highly dysgenic. The upper castes have taken to the Western–and “population correct”–standard of two kids. And like the West often fail to meet that. Sometimes intentionally because–like the US–multiculturalism and high population means “affordable family formation” and stuff like “housing in a good neighborhood” and “good schools” are very expensive. Upper castes are in TFR terms contracting already. And then many of the best and brightest Indians have emigrated. So the smarter upper castes are getting smaller and dumber.

    Meanwhile the lower caste population–especially in the north–is still growing rapidly. And the muslim population even more rapidly. So India will be
    — more crowded
    — genotypically dumber even as the phenotypic IQ improves
    — more riven by the Hindu-Muslim divide

    India will improve with increased prosperity, but because of–pretty much the same causes as in the West–dysgenics and diversity, India is not headed toward a happy place.

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  126. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonym
    The election of Trump started the process of moving racial demographics into the Overton window; this “Unite The Right” fiasco pushes it in the opposite direction

    I guess I don't see it that way. I see the election of Trump as a manifestation of a movement that has occurred in response to PC and mass non-white immigration into every white country - the program of race replacement. Trump himself has alluded to being the messenger multiple times. Maybe not of that specifically but a citizenist presidency is a stepping stone away from anti-white politics.

    A decade ago, many countries were well and truly on their way to being pozzed, but the citizens of each country didn't realize that the poz was not specific to their own country, it was part of a greater phenomenon. Now there is that realization. People talk. People are networked. People are pissed off beyond measure. None of that occurred because of Trump. Without it, neither Trump nor Brexit would have had any hope of positive election results.

    The "pro tip" is this - if you (not you specifically but TPTB) don't like Nazis, then don't create a world that is worse to the one that the Nazis would have created had they won (limited to Europe basically). Pogroms of Jews - it's not nice, though it's also not nice to attempt to bring about bloodthirsty Marxist revolutions. A slow-poisoning pogrom of my kind and creating a situation where my children and grandchildren may be in a war? Objectively less nice in every way.

    If it was my own rally, no, I don't think the optics are the best but this one event is not going to cause the millions of us out here to say "Whoa, I was on the fence but race replacement is now awesome, please proceed apace."

    I think #BlackLivesMatter is a decent analogy to the #UniteTheRight, as I mentioned on Twitter. Let’s say you were against police brutality, especially against blacks. Then you see the violence caused by BLM. It doesn’t mean that you’re now in favor of police brutality, but maybe you’re so disgusted that you withdraw from it.

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  127. Melendwyr says: • Website
    @Clement Pulaski
    SJW's try to have it both ways: men and women are exactly the same, but supposedly feminine qualities like empathy are more important than masculine qualities

    And it’s vitally important that transsexuals be allowed to act in very masculine or feminine ways, but the validity of those concepts is denied when dealing with normal men and women.

    So there differences between men and women are imposed by discrimination and culture, except for transsexuals, who are innately patterned with them.

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  128. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyWalker123
    They are 8.5% of the STEM PHDs. They also have satellites, nuclear weapons, and super computers. Which is pretty good for an abysmally poor country.

    It's true they have 1.3 billion people, but almost all of them live in dire poverty. So their intellectual talent is largely untapped. The H1bs are the cream of the few who are not impoverished.

    3. Programming doesn’t require you to be some kind of genius and it’s sufficient to be relatively smart, unless you are involved in hardcore research. And if it’s not the leading tech company or innovative startup the bar might be even lower. Turns out there are a lot sufficiently smart Indians to fill the positions + they are more proficient in English than Chinese or Russians.
     
    If they're more English proficient, it'd imply higher verbal IQ. Or at least comparable verbal IQ.


    4. Cultural thing, their cultural traits help them to succeed in Western business environment where others will fail. Let me elaborate on this:
    What I learned, all this stuff “free thinking, leadership, thinking outside of the box, independent thinking etc” is a complete BS. If there is architectural question or requirement that doesn’t seem right:
    - most Americans are taught to think independently and point to the problem and disagree very politely.
    - Russian guys will disagree and often not in a polite way.
    - EAsian who grew up in America -> look how Americans would react.
    - EAsian who grew up in EAsia -> either disagree politely or try hard and hard and harder.
    - Indian will agree with the boss, promise to do staff, will get a workaround, may not do it efficiently, will do it partially (cause there was a problem to begin with, working on better requirements or design would be better, but boss is more pleased when dev agreed and went on with his idea even though it wasn’t 100% successful).
    The implementation may not be in the best interest of the company, but guess who will be rewarded?
    PS don’t get the idea that all engineers from certain country are this way. But there are traits that are more prevalent among certain cultures.
     
    That sounds plausible. Indians are about 70% of H-1bs. There's no way that 70% of the world's smartest people are Indian. However, there's also no way that an 81 IQ country captures 70% of our tech visas.

    The Indians may not be Einsteins, but anything in the 80-90 IQ range is totally implausible. That just doesn't make sense.

    It would be impossible if H-1Bs were randomly selected across India’s population.

    But if one looks at it as a selected “draft” of specified subsets of India’s micro-stratified society, with a billion population overall, it makes sense. The average H-1B hire is a mediocre programmer, but all the companies that hire them find that adequate for the positions for which they hire them.

    The entire computer industry, since the seventies has been based on the idea that hardware will get cheaper , bigger, and faster forever while communications get faster and cheaper forever. Therefore turning out a lot of code makes money, it does not have to be elegant or very well proven.

    Looking back if we had taxed computers as cars were taxed on weight, horsepower or displacement, we’d have much better programming paradigms.

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  129. Anon7 says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Those numbers sound like garbage. No way could there be large Indian subgroups with mean IQ in the 110-120 range.

    My model of India is that most of the caste groups cluster in the 95-100 IQ range. If there really are 110-120 IQ subgroups in India, we would see that in their historical and contemporary output.

    Also, the study on caste and academic achievement showed no advantage for the Brahmins. So the numbers have no basis in reality.

    I happen to know at least a dozen people who are South Indian Brahmins, and I can tell you from my personal experience that these people, born in India, are certainly in the IQ 120+ range. They are academic physicians, they are college professors, they are computer programmers and they are not affirmative action hires. I don’t know very many of their kids, but the two that I do know averaged 34 across the board on their ACTs, which is not an IQ test, but I don’t doubt that these kids are bright academically, IQ 120 at least.

    The stats mentioned in the iSteve article said that southern Brahmins represented the upper 1% of India’s intellectual population and I don’t have any idea whether or not that number is true. But if you compare that to the US, about 10% of Americans have IQ 120 or better.

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