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As you’ll recall, in September 2015, Angela Merkel’s sudden whim of inviting a million marching men into the heart of Europe was widely proclaimed an audacious masterstroke that would no doubt envibrantize Germany’s economy with all those Syrian engineers. But, the cooler heads cautioned, there might be some short-term adjustment issues unless the other nations of Europe, such as Poland, were forced to take their fair share of Merkel’s Muslims.

Polish voters reacted to the EU’s demands by giving the populist conservative Law & Justice party the first majority in parliament in modern free Poland’s history.

It was almost as if the Poles, having looked around Western Europe, don’t want Muslim immigrants to establish a beachhead in their own country. As Will Rogers might have said, if you find yourself standing on nice level ground, don’t start digging.

But from the New York Times op-ed page, we learn that Polish resistance to the German chancellor’s demand for Muslim immigration into Poland isn’t really about Muslim immigration, because Poles are too stupid to know anything about Muslims, it’s really all about how those hateful Poles are bad for the Jews:

Poles Cry for ‘Pure Blood’ Again
By JAN T. GROSS NOV. 16, 2017

… Until very recently Poles had never given much thought to Islam beyond occasionally expressing a sense of historical pride that a Polish king, Jan Sobieski, defeated the Turks in a 17th-century battle near Vienna, thus saving Christian Europe from the infidels. This fits a recurrent theme in Polish national mythology: Poland as a rampart of Christianity, the Christ of Nations. Poland, according to this trope, has repeatedly, and heroically, suffered for the sake of others, especially the rest of Christian Europe.

Those nativist Polish bigots should have let the diverse Mongols loot and burn Krakow for a third time in the 13th Century instead of just twice. The Mongols had their flaws, but at least they weren’t Christians.

… But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.

As we all have learned from Polish Jokes, Poles are ignorant buffoons. For proof, see the documentary Borat.

Their animus, which carries Polish nationalism into such an aggressively xenophobic articulation, springs primarily from a deep pool of ethnic-cum-religious hatred, which is indigenous to Poland and has historically been aimed at Jews.

Anti-Semitism is a deeply entrenched and historically rooted element of this Polish nationalist worldview. …

Poland’s leaders have let an evil genie out of the bottle. What we’ve witnessed on the streets of Warsaw represents a threat not only to liberal democracy in Poland but also to the stability and welfare of the European Union.

Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …

You know, smart people like Professor Gross of Princeton wouldn’t be quite so artless in exposing their ethnic animosities if anybody less rich and less Jewish than Larry David were allowed to have a laugh at their expense. As I wrote in 2016:

When you think about it, isn’t the very idea of Polish voters daring to stand up to the German chancellor and deciding as a free people to not import anti-Semites downright Hitlerish?

 
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  1. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Any reason why Poland should avoid this?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41961801

    More than 20 police officers were injured in Brussels when celebrations over Morocco’s qualification for football’s World Cup turned violent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @El Dato
    Actually the Moroccan immigration wave stems from th 80s I think.

    Poland was also responsible for heroically stopping the Red Army's march to Berlin before Warsaw in 1920. Maybe they cannot be forgiven for that.

    (Incidentally, a lot of often nasty cleaning of the jewish population was performed by both sides during those times - bolshy collaborators to the Poles, capitalist exploiters to the Reds, you can't win! And this after 4 years of suffering under roaming armies during WWI)
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  2. JohnnyD says:

    I don’t see how the Poles are being “undemocratic.” The majority of their people voted to keep the migrants out. It’s not like this nationalism was forced upon the Poles, the way Merkel forced her people to accept millions of refugees. Also, it’s the German government which is throwing people in jail for complaining about the government’s immigration policies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jason Liu
    The western world uses 'democratic' as a catch-all word for everything that sounds nice and loving. If the people vote for something mean then it's not "real democracy".
    , @DJF
    """"I don’t see how the Poles are being “undemocratic.”"""

    You don’t understand modern globalist democracy.

    Its not the votes of Poles which count but the votes of the NYT editorial board, the Goldman Sachs board of directors, the EU Commission, etc which count. Even some Somali immigrant's vote counts more then a Pole’s

    That is why they constantly refer to democracy when doing things that the people of a country don’t like.
    , @anonmn
    You should know by now that "undemocratic" means anything that contests the prevailing narrative. It's as simple as that.
    , @Buck Turgidson
    It's not like they aren't being democratic, it's just the wrong kind of democratic. One needs to read the NYT and WaPo regularly in order to understand these nuances.
    , @ben tillman

    I don’t see how the Poles are being “undemocratic.”
     
    "Democratic" is an Orwell-word. Its official meaning is the opposite of its real meaning.
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  3. Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …

    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland’s population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    Read More
    • Replies: @DCThrowback
    If your getting paid or promoted means not seeing the obvious, you won't see it. See Silveria, Jay, LTG, Air Force. Under Obama he'd definitely be getting his 4th star. TBD under Trump.

    Re: Jan Teh Gross: "His father was Jewish and his mother was Christian." - wikipedia

    How long until Wikipedia bans its powerful alpha male editors from disclosing subjects' ethnicity in their personal bios?
    , @Jake
    'Monomaniacal' is the word.
    , @Erik L
    Bizarre. My dad was devoted to the study of historic antisemitism and he loved, loved, loved the Poles. This might have been partly because we lived in Chicago but I'm pretty sure he told me the Poles were pretty Jew loving by historic European standards. So I find this article kind of a strange smear.

    I don't know much about Polish history but I get the impression they have been invaded successfully a lot more often than the average country and never felt secure between Russia and Germany. So maybe they are a little extra touchy about foreign invasion, even if it isn't done by a formal army?
    , @Thea
    Not to mention perhaps 10 million soviet citizens.

    And if the Holocaust total is 20 million, why does only one group of 6 million get to claim it and profit from it?
    , @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.
    , @Rod1963
    If you listen to the Jews the only people who suffered were them. It's always been their SOP for the last 40 years and probably longer.

    To a Jew the only people who matter are Jews.
    , @Anonymous
    According to Wikipedia, "World War II fatality statistics vary, with estimates of total deaths ranging from 50 million to more than 80 million." So apparently 44 million to 74 million Gentiles died in WW II.
    , @(((Owen)))

    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland’s population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles?
     
    "The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils."

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles. They had 21 inter-war years to industrialize and re-arm themselves. The Bolsheviks were glaringly intent upon expansion and conquest from the beginning and the Germans were as well in the 1930s. And the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today's Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.

    But ethnic squabbles, elite infighting, squalid traditional feudal economies, and jockeying for status absorbed the potential of the Polish nation. They had every opportunity to unify, invest, and grow by open trade, land reform, and dissolving cartels and monopolies with free competition. They could have invested in schools, roads, and universities. But they did not; it was more important to keep elites powerful than to create wealth.

    And the poor—but stably hierarchical—Poland had no ability to defend against the Nazis and Soviets. So 20% of Poles died, including nearly every single one of the Jews. Non-Communist Party elites were mostly murdered or imprisoned. And the communists didn't do so hot either.

    But they had time and opportunity to avoid their own destruction. It was plainly coming and gave abundant warning. And they did nothing.

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.

    Just as America and western Europe deserve 100% of the blame for what is happening to them today. It's not the Moslem and African invaders that are ruining them. They're ruining themselves. They have been given abundant warning. And they are doing nothing to stop it.

    , @guest
    There are all sorts of questions in Holocaust literature about why the death camps were in Poland, how enthusiastic Poles were about helping Germans kill Jews, etc.

    Here's something the history books rarely ponder: for many decades Official History tried to pass off concentration camps in Germany as industrial slaughter houses, but eventually had to give them all up. The supposedly real death camps all happen to be located within territory conquered by the Soviet Union. Coincidence?
    , @Anonymous
    The author's Polish Christian mother was one of those selfless Christian Europeans who risked her life to save his Jewish father's life during WWII. And this is the gratitude that he returns both to Christians and Poles. She should've had an abortion.
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  4. CK says:

    So many places in Europe developed bad cases of anti-Semitism. S0 few places in Africa or the Far East have.
    England expelled them in 1290. France even earlier.
    Jesus Christ was a heretic, his religions Eastern Orthodox Christianity and later Roman Catholicism and still later all the Protestant spin offs were all heretical sects and their believers apostates. Maybe what is perceived as anti-Semitism is more accurately described as a response to anti-gentilism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    So many places in Europe developed bad cases of anti-Semitism. S0 few places in Africa or the Far East have.
     
    Dunno:

    The Almohads had taken control of the Almoravid Maghribi and Andalusian territories by 1147.[20] The Almohads rejected the mainstream Islamic doctrine that established the status of "dhimmi", a non-Muslim resident of a Muslim country who was allowed to practice his religion on condition of submission to Muslim rule and payment of jizya.[21]
    The treatment of Jews under Almohad rule was a drastic change. During the Caliphate of Córdoba Jewish culture experienced a Golden Age. María Rosa Menocal, a specialist in Iberian literature at Yale University, has argued that "tolerance was an inherent aspect of Andalusian society", and that the Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, while allowed fewer rights than Muslims, were still better off than in Christian Europe.[22] Many Jews migrated to al-Andalus, where they were not just tolerated, but allowed to practice their faith openly.
    Christians also practiced their religion openly in Córdoba, and both Jews and Christians lived openly in Morocco as well.
    The first Almohad leader, Abd al-Mumin, allowed an initial 7-month grace period.[23] Then he forced most of the urban dhimmi population in Morocco, both Jewish and Christian, to convert to Islam.[21]
    Those who converted had to wear identifying clothing, as they weren't regarded as sincere Muslims.[21] Cases of mass martyrdom of Jews who refused to convert to Islam are recorded.[23]

     

    Many of the conversions were superficial. Maimonides urged Jews to choose the superficial conversion over martyrdom, arguing that "Muslims know very well that we do not mean what we say, and that what we say is only to escape the ruler’s punishment and to satisfy him with this simple confession."[21] Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089–1164), who himself fled the persecutions of the Almohads, composed an elegy mourning the destruction of many Jewish communities throughout Spain and the Maghreb under the Almohads.[24] Many Jews fled from territories ruled by the Almohads to Christian lands, and others, like the family of Maimonides, fled east to more tolerant Muslim lands.[25

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_Caliphate#Status_of_non-Muslims

    The Exile of Mawzaʻ (the expulsion of Yemenite Jews to Mawza') Hebrew: גלות מוזע‎, pronounced [ğalūt mawzaʻ];‎ 1679–1680, is considered the single most traumatic event experienced collectively by the Jews of Yemen,[1] in which Jews living in nearly all cities and towns throughout Yemen were banished by decree of the king, Imām al-Mahdi Ahmad, and sent to a dry and barren region of the country named Mawzaʻ to withstand their fate or to die. Only a few communities, viz., those Jewish inhabitants who lived in the far eastern quarters of Yemen (Nihm, al-Jawf, and Khawlan of the east[2]) were spared this fate by virtue of their Arab patrons who refused to obey the king’s orders.[3] Many would die along the route and while confined to the hot and arid conditions of this forbidding terrain. After one year in exile, the exiles were called back to perform their usual tasks and labors for the indigenous Arab populations, who had been deprived of goods and services on account of their exile.[4]

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawza_Exile
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  5. I wonder whether the alliterative phrase “a million marching men” in the first sentence is an allusion to

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Mark, OT, but West Seneca West HS has an outstanding football team, of course their nick name the "Indians" is not acceptable.
    , @SteveRogers42
    Excellent Golden Age sci-fi reference!
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  6. Jason Liu says:
    @JohnnyD
    I don't see how the Poles are being "undemocratic." The majority of their people voted to keep the migrants out. It's not like this nationalism was forced upon the Poles, the way Merkel forced her people to accept millions of refugees. Also, it's the German government which is throwing people in jail for complaining about the government's immigration policies.

    The western world uses ‘democratic’ as a catch-all word for everything that sounds nice and loving. If the people vote for something mean then it’s not “real democracy”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @guest
    If the people vote for something mean, then it's "politics," which is a dirty word.

    We're schizophrenic on the subject of democratic politics.
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  7. Anon 2 says:

    Poland is perfectly happy accepting immigrants and guest workers
    who are fellow Christians. At this point Poland is hosting at least
    1.5 million guest workers and students (out of the population
    of 38.5 million) primarily from Ukraine, but also growing numbers
    from Belarus, Russia, and Slovakia. Students from western Ukraine
    are now more likely to study in Poland than in Russia.
    Warsaw, like Paris or New York, is increasingly attracting beautiful
    women from the whole region, not just Ukraine, leading to a growing
    number of marriages between Polish men and beautiful girls from
    Central and Eastern Europe.

    The labor shortage caused by Poland’s dynamic economy (and 2-3
    million who left for Britain, etc) is also beginning to attract legal
    immigrants from the high-unemployment countries such as Spain,
    Portugal, and Italy. Poland has become one big construction site.
    They cannot build skyscrapers in Warsaw fast enough. A major
    airport will be built between Warsaw and Lodz. Probably
    another large LNG terminal. Poland has the ambition of becoming
    an ultramodern country, and this requires a lot of extra hands

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Britain would be in a far better state if it 'lost' at least half a million eastern Europeans.
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  8. Jason Liu says:

    The Law & Justice party should continue their efforts to gain full control over the Polish judiciary, don’t let a few dipshits stop you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @polaco
    The justice system in PL is corrupt to the core, it's grown like cancer through the decades. Before WWII the situation was different, most lawyers, judges, and prosecutors came from the upper social strata, had solid educational background, were principled, ethical, Catholic and patriotic with impeccable manners or at least knew those values were expected of them. These people were systematically and meticulously attacked on all sides so that no respectable person remained in practice after the war, Russians begun installing their lackeys recruited from the lowest social classes, anti-Catholic, anti-polish, without a moral code, criminal communist personalities, oafs; they had mostly fake degrees obtained through "accelerated" courses the Communist party offered them at specially created institutions. There were many Jews in high positions, like the infamous Helena Wolinska whose job was to prosecute polish patriots. Even now you essentially can't be admitted to the bar unless you have an advocate in your family, outsiders aren't welcome and they'd better not try. Now the grandchildren of these people are running the show, and they're still morally degenerate louts. Judges often seem to side with criminals with whom they empathize and have a lot in common philosophically, they openly flaunt victims seeking justice. Judges dictate to court reporters what to write in the transcript, if you protest they yell at you like at a communist show trial, attorneys work against clients when it's in their interest. The judges' approval is at around 30%. In the city of Bialystok in north eastern Poland, which incidentally has the largest Russian minority in the country, about three quarters of the judges of the appellate court are relatives. So you get a sense of what the Law and Justice party is up against. Needless to say, the Constitutional Tribunal was created during the martial law in the eighties by general Jaruzelski, to give the stamp of approval to the military and dismiss anyone who tried to point to whatever legal protection the communist Constitution offered.
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  9. lavoisier says: • Website

    Given all the ethnic hatred in Poland over the years it is long past time for the great and the good to impose that ethnic diversity on the Polish people–their wishes be damned!

    What could be more reasonable and democratic than that??

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  10. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Poland has ‘benefitted’ from the EU in so many ways. It has received massive cash subsidies from other EU nations – which have no historic connections with Poland -for example.
    Poland has also been adroit at exporting its unemployment problem to other EU nations, much to the chagrin of the working class English, for example, directly leading to the brexit vote.

    But compared to all that, the Faustian price of EU membership – that is the compulsory and forceful western European style third world race replacement of the indigenous population, is a price that simply cannot be paid.

    Read More
    • Agree: RadicalCenter
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  11. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.

    Before veering off into his ethnic resentments Gross is glancing at Edsall’s topsy-turvy observation:

    The election of Donald Trump revealed that in some of the nation’s whitest municipalities and counties — the communities arguably most insulated from urban crime, immigration and gangs — …

    This argumentation is so common there must be a catchy phrase for it by now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus."

    This actually doesn't make much sense. Most Poles (proxy for white Europeans) can definitely distinguish an ethnically Muslim (mostly Mid. Eastern/North African) and an ethnically Buddhist (mostly Asian) from Jesus.

    A question to turn around would be, can NYT writers distinguish a Muslim or a Buddhist from Moses? That's a fair question in the same vein.
    , @Lars Porsena

    This argumentation is so common there must be a catchy phrase for it by now.
     
    Communism.
    , @Anonymous
    And again:

    https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/930644556105863170

    ... The right-wing ruling party in Poland, Law and Justice, has wantonly assailed the courts and the news media while railing against immigrants, Islam, the European Union and liberals.

    These far-right passions have little basis in reality. Poland’s economy has made great strides since Communism’s fall, and unemployment is at a record low, 5.3 percent. As for purported threats to Polish identity, the country of 38 million has taken in a total of 1,474 asylum-seekers this year — 18 of them from Syria, the rest mostly from Russia or Ukraine.
     
    "Why are you complaining about something we haven't even done to you yet? Plus, you're evil if you won't let us."
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  12. DCThrowback says: • Website
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    If your getting paid or promoted means not seeing the obvious, you won’t see it. See Silveria, Jay, LTG, Air Force. Under Obama he’d definitely be getting his 4th star. TBD under Trump.

    Re: Jan Teh Gross: “His father was Jewish and his mother was Christian.” – wikipedia

    How long until Wikipedia bans its powerful alpha male editors from disclosing subjects’ ethnicity in their personal bios?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico
    Wikipedians already voted to ban "religion" from the sidebar vital data along with a person's date of birth, party affiliation, etc. I strongly recommend searching down the conversation and reading it. It was very illuminating into the mindset of academics and journalists as well as the complete and utter lack of historical and social sensibility of our times.
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  13. Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons – they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers – old people, rural people and young people who can’t speak English and won’t get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are “pro” Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff77450
    Interesting. Thank you.
    , @Lex
    Previous government agreed to accept thousands of "refugees" even though it didn't have to. It was important element of election campaigns that year. Here is Kaczyński's speech in parliament that year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzdfaGvM0B8


    Jan Tomasz Gross(his father was saved by Poles from holocaust) is known as great holocaust historian in Poland(he's a sociologist) promoted by every left-wing outlet known from his factualy wrong holocaust fanfics like Poles murdering 1600 Jews in a single barn in a village where only 562 Jews lived. All because of priest's sermon.

    Jedwabne case is in itself interesting because when in 2001 archeologists started digging out hundreds of shell casings exhumations(already limited by Lech Kaczyński, "friend of the Jews") were immediately stopped for religious concerns. It was then decided that shell casings found themselves on the site either during WW1 or from 1942 onwards(Jedwabne pogrom happened in 1941). So it was decided Poles did it even though Hermann Schaper - Einsatzgruppen leader - was prosecuted for that crime in Germany. Ever since 2001 Polish left wing and Western media expect Poles to apologize and "work through" Polish involvement in Holocaust. Recently it's spinned that holocaust was comitted by international Nazis(Germans are never specifically named) and Poles with Poles being only true anti-semites - Nazis were either only following orders or acting pressured by anti-Jewish attitudes of Polish population in occupied territories.

    , @Mr. Anon

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time..............................PiS was voted in by the losers – old people, rural people and young people who can’t speak English and won’t get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan.
     
    Gosh, imagine that! People whom you casually write-off as "losers" express anti-semitism to your face. I wonder why that might be?
    , @Bies Podkrakowski

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.
     
    Actually that's total bullshit.
    , @Semion
    A bit curious here... could you give some examples of anti-semitic remarks you have heard recently from Poles and the context in which those remarks were made?

    I would appreciate that, and I guess many other readers looking to form a balanced opinion also would.

    , @utu
    I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Perhaps Poles are onto something. Do you think that Jews are as smart as you and get the hint?
    , @Beckow

    "PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons – they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support..."
     
    You realize that those two are related? 'Nationalists' see child support as a better way to maintain population than mass migration from the Third World. And everyone else sees it that way: children are costly in advanced societies. There are basically two choices: import people with all the not-so-good consequences or support families.

    Waiting with family support until the mass migration has started (e.g. Sweden, Germany...) makes it much worse. It will be the migrant families who quickly figure out the benefits and take advantage of them. See Germany or Sweden today where Third World migrants have been running a very profitable racket with large families and all the sick relatives that they can bring in. And natives are forced to pay for it - anything else would be 'discrimination'.

    Polish support for mass migration is less than 10% (maybe 25% in Warsaw), so the previous government also had to appear anti mass migration. But it is not about appearances, but actual policies - Tusk's Platform agreed to migrant relocation. And Tusk was rewarded with an EU sinecure. That's why they lost so badly.

    , @Rod1963
    American Jews pretty much hate all whites that are not to the Left of Soros and actively working to destruction of Europe and America. One just has to pick up the NYT and read the editorial section to see that.

    And what''s wrong with helping families pay for child support? Oh that's right these are white and Catholics, bad people by your definition. The rest reads like the typical Jewish/White Liberal screed against Trump voters you can find in the NYT or LAT.
    , @a reader

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time.
     
    Is it some genetic disease?
    , @SecretaryNS
    You're telling us that in Poland, the two most powerful parties are BOTH anti-immigration?

    Be still, my beating heart!
    , @Name

    The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way.
     
    Utter bullshit. A key reason why they lost was because they gave into pressure to put a refugee quota in place. And they are not at all like czech leftists(where even the communists are against multiculti). Polish liberals are closer to their Western vermin.

    You claim not to be a Jew, but you argue like one. Full of barely-veiled hatred of Poles and getting everything wrong.

    , @gerbils

    If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.
     
    Because Hitler simply did not do enough for Poles to internalize the fear of what Germans are capable of, as a group, when certain circumstances are met. Thanks for the sociology lesson.
    , @Anon
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.

    That just means Poles speak of Jews in the way Jews speak of goyim.

    It evens out.
    , @Pat Casey

    Poland actually is a very anti-Semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.
     
    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it's not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)

    The Auschwitz convent controversy was one of the most painful and unedifying of the late twentieth century. In late 1984, a small community of Carmelite nuns, whose stated purpose was to give up their lives in prayerful reparation for what had been done to the Jews, had moved into an abandoned building on the border of the concentration camp---Auschwitz I, as it was known, in distinction from the extermination camp at Birkenau, known as Auschwitz II. Protests from Jewish leaders followed.... By the summer of 1989, the situation had once again reached a boiling point, with frequently strident charges and countercharges. The Carmelites were not inclined to leave; nationalistically inclined Polish Catholics saw the international Jewish protests against the convent as an attack on Catholicism itself; Jewish protests at the convent site triggered counter-protests by local Poles and further exacerbated tensions. On July 14, 1989, seven Jews wearing striped concentration camp uniforms and led by New York Rabbi Avraham Weiss climbed over the convent fence and began banging on the convent's doors and windows, demanding that the nuns abandon the convent. Construction workers making repairs on the second floor of the building dumped water on Weiss and his followers and eventually dragged them away from the site. The police nearby, who had done nothing to stop the demonstrators, did nothing to stop the workers, either, nor did the nuns and a priest who was present. Weiss said that the police had turned their back on Jews "just like your Church did 50 years ago." Two days later, Weiss's group was allowed into the courtyard of the Metropolitan Curia at Francszkanska, in Krakow, where they tacked an appeal to Cardinal Macharski on the door, stating that they had come in peace but saying that "as proud Jews we announce---stop praying for the Jews who were killed in the Shoah, let them rest in peace as Jews." At a later meeting with an archdiocesan official, Weiss's group charged that the Catholic Church sought to "remove the Jewish character of the Shoah and give it a Christian character." Weiss and his group returned to the convent the same day, climbed over the fence again, and staged a six-hour demonstration.... By 1993, despite completion of the new center, the nuns had not yet moved. With new protests mounting and some Jewish groups threatening to boycott the mid-April commemoration of of the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, John Paul II intervened again, with a personal letter to the Carmelites....
     
    , @SteveRogers42
    Toughski shitski.
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  14. GROSS ANTI-GENTILISM

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  15. George says:

    “Angela Merkel’s sudden whim of inviting a million marching men”

    They didn’t ask permission. After more than a decade of war the refugee numbers in Turkey swelled to the point they overflowed.

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    • Replies: @guest
    Look at a map. There's an awful lot of territory between Turkey and Germany. What's the connection between them spontaneously overflowing Turkey's borders and Merkel's Boner? There is none.
    , @SteveRogers42
    But they were GIVEN permission. Not a single Heckler&Koch fired. Not a single Leopard tank rolled.
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  16. Jake says:

    Hopefully, the Poles wake up fully, as the Hungarians seem to have. The Poles are even more important because they have been used to bash Russia permanently.

    The basic ground work is perfectly clear: Poland must either continue to one of the many whores of the UN and the American Empire, with its BFF Israel and its new BFF Saudi Arabia, or Poland must be in Russia’s sphere.

    There is no possible neutral now, or in the foreseeable future. Trying to be neutral only guarantees that the Clintons, the NeoCons, the Merkels, the Tony Blairs, the Soroses, etc own you and will get around to turning your fair land into the home of 20 million or so delightful Moslems.

    And won’t that be great for the Jews?

    No people are more suicidal than Jews.

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  17. OT but fascinating:

    When I clicked on to this site a couple of minutes ago, I got a pop up message from my Malwarebytes ™ free trial (don’t ask) that iSteve has been found to be “malicious.”

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  18. Jake says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    ‘Monomaniacal’ is the word.

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  19. Svigor says:

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    What’s the down side for Poles? I could write a book about the up side.

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  20. Jeff77450 says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Interesting. Thank you.

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  21. Clyde says:

    German chancellor’s demand for Muslim immigration into Poland

    Misery enjoys company. Now Merkel morphed into misery demands company. I hope the Poles and Hungarians stand their ground, same for the others resisting Merkel migrant tyranny. Seems Czech Republic and Slovakia too.

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  22. DFH says:

    Their animus, which carries Polish nationalism into such an aggressively xenophobic articulation, springs primarily from a deep pool of ethnic-cum-religious hatred, which is indigenous to Poland and has historically been aimed at Jews.

    Funny how he doesn’t mention any of the reasons why this might exist

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    He neglected to mention that it is also directed at Orthodox Christians and Protestants. But you know how things fall in the cracks when everything is all about The Jews.
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  23. DJF says:
    @JohnnyD
    I don't see how the Poles are being "undemocratic." The majority of their people voted to keep the migrants out. It's not like this nationalism was forced upon the Poles, the way Merkel forced her people to accept millions of refugees. Also, it's the German government which is throwing people in jail for complaining about the government's immigration policies.

    “”””I don’t see how the Poles are being “undemocratic.””””

    You don’t understand modern globalist democracy.

    Its not the votes of Poles which count but the votes of the NYT editorial board, the Goldman Sachs board of directors, the EU Commission, etc which count. Even some Somali immigrant’s vote counts more then a Pole’s

    That is why they constantly refer to democracy when doing things that the people of a country don’t like.

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  24. Corn says:

    Something I read on twitter a couple days ago:

    Reminder that all the people telling white Americans to “go back to Europe” are currently going apesh— over the idea of a white Europe.

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  25. Jan Sobieski defeated the invading Turkish Muslims at Vienna in 1683. Some Princeton twat named Gross attacks the Poles in 2017 for resisting being swamped by Muslims and other foreigners of all kinds. The town of Princeton is mostly White and most of its Black residents are the famous Black squirrels who live there.

    This video portion of an Italian/Polish movie about the Battle of Vienna shows the Poles defending Vienna against the invading Muslim Turks. The Poles use a massive cavalry charge to decimate the Turks. Some of the Polish cavalrymen go into battle wearing wings and using a pike weapon that has a wooden handle and a metal tip. The metal tip detaches after the cavalryman skewers a Turkish Muslim.

    The Polish cavalry charge starts at about 4 minutes into the video:

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    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
    And they also saved a prostrate Europe from Bolshevism by defeating the Red Army 1n 1920. If the USSR had militarily linked up with revolutionary communist governments in Bavaria and Hungary, it would have been a brave new world, indeed.
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  26. Lex says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Previous government agreed to accept thousands of “refugees” even though it didn’t have to. It was important element of election campaigns that year. Here is Kaczyński’s speech in parliament that year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzdfaGvM0B8

    Jan Tomasz Gross(his father was saved by Poles from holocaust) is known as great holocaust historian in Poland(he’s a sociologist) promoted by every left-wing outlet known from his factualy wrong holocaust fanfics like Poles murdering 1600 Jews in a single barn in a village where only 562 Jews lived. All because of priest’s sermon.

    Jedwabne case is in itself interesting because when in 2001 archeologists started digging out hundreds of shell casings exhumations(already limited by Lech Kaczyński, “friend of the Jews”) were immediately stopped for religious concerns. It was then decided that shell casings found themselves on the site either during WW1 or from 1942 onwards(Jedwabne pogrom happened in 1941). So it was decided Poles did it even though Hermann Schaper – Einsatzgruppen leader – was prosecuted for that crime in Germany. Ever since 2001 Polish left wing and Western media expect Poles to apologize and “work through” Polish involvement in Holocaust. Recently it’s spinned that holocaust was comitted by international Nazis(Germans are never specifically named) and Poles with Poles being only true anti-semites – Nazis were either only following orders or acting pressured by anti-Jewish attitudes of Polish population in occupied territories.

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  27. Heros says:

    Already before the second world war for Israel, the Poles were desperately trying to free themselves of a certain race of hook nosed goyim haters. Then Churchill and Roosevelt ignored Stalin’s belated invasion of Poland and then they helped cover up how his jewish run NKVD pulled one of their shoa’s on the Polish intelligensia at Katyn, and other places, just as they had previously done to the Russian intelligensia as well. Poland was also divided up between Russia and Prussia by Rothschild agent Metternich during the Congress of Vienna.

    Poland has its own version of Two Hundred Years Together (by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn), and the non-kosher message may finally be getting through.

    https://twohundredyearstogether.wordpress.com/

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  28. Svigor says:

    Feel free(r than usual) not to publish this one, Steve.

    Jews: “K, you make us your masters, and we’ll give you a permanent, 5% boost to GDP.”
    Poles: “Fuck no.”
    Jews: “Antisemites!!!”

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  29. Svigor says:

    “Fuck the Mongols, fuck the Muslims, fuck the Germans, fuck the Russians, fuck the Nazis, fuck the Soviets, and yeah, fuck the Jews, too.”

    ~with affection, the Poles

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  30. Erik L says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    Bizarre. My dad was devoted to the study of historic antisemitism and he loved, loved, loved the Poles. This might have been partly because we lived in Chicago but I’m pretty sure he told me the Poles were pretty Jew loving by historic European standards. So I find this article kind of a strange smear.

    I don’t know much about Polish history but I get the impression they have been invaded successfully a lot more often than the average country and never felt secure between Russia and Germany. So maybe they are a little extra touchy about foreign invasion, even if it isn’t done by a formal army?

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  31. As I keep repeating. There is hardly a Pole alive who has not worked in a Western European country for a time (or who doesn’t have family members or friends who have done so).

    Being cheap labor, they’ve seen what muslim immigration to Europe looks like close up (often closer up than the upper middle class or elite of those countries ever have) and they don’t like it and don’t want it for their own country.

    Simple as that. It’s not a position that is borne of ignorance but rather from direct experience (unlike Gross who I’m pretty sure has never had to rent a room in a mostly muslim neighborhood in Birmingham or Oslo or Antwerp).

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  32. I visited Poland earlier this year- not just Warsaw but smaller towns that rarely see tourists. The Poles I met were friendly and warm, even when I told them I was Jewish and there to see the homes fled by my great grandparents before the Holocaust.

    Poles’ nationalism stems not from ethnic hatred, but a justifiable wariness of occupation after Nazi Germany and the USSR. Screw The New York Times.

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    • Replies: @Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta
    Well-adjusted nations can be great neighbors and share great hospitality and kindness.

    It's also essential that neighbors don't meddle too much and make too many demands about how the neighbor should tend his garden.
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  33. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    OT, except the guy’s last name sounds Polish:

    Last year, I posted this article about a high school running back who was passed over by big schools because he is white.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/high-school-football/2016/10/21/Why-doesn-t-Zane-Dudek-have-major-college-scholarship-offers/stories/201610210047

    Well, now he’s at Yale and doing fantastic. As a true freshman, he has 1069 yards and 14 TDs at 8 yards per carry. Tomorrow Yale plays Harvard on CNBC at noon if you need further confirmation that he definitely was good enough to play at a major school if he were black.

    On the other hand, for him, going to Yale isn’t such a bad alternative to fighting for carries at a major football school. I hear Yale might even have some distinguished alumni, some of whom would presumably help him find a remunerative job that doesn’t involve getting his head bashed in by 250 pound linebackers. If not, there’s always the Patriots.

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    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
    Surprised USAFA or Navy didn't go for him. They have a history of allowing white guys to play running back. Ditto Stanford, although he might be a little small for the PAC-12. SMU had a stud YT at RB a couple years ago, too, but everybody else in FBS pretends that whites can't carry the ball. The story of Hunter Furr at North Carolina was a typical travesty of reverse-racism in college football. Glad this kid landed on his feet.
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  34. My physician and his wife, whom I also a count as personal friends and with whom I have regularly discussed geopolitical matters, are, like the vast majority of Poles, brilliant Christians just as knowledgeable about human nature and history as they are about things like medicine​ and engineering.

    Their children attend Liberty University, not Stanford University, despite dad’s being a physician in one of the richest towns in the nation. Believe you me:

    The Poles know EXACTLY what they are doing, and it’s nothing whatsoever to do with the Jews … except that the Poles, unlike Americans and most other Europeans, are pursuing what is best for Poland, rather than what the Jews, with their globo-homo agenda, might prefer….

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  35. Thea says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    Not to mention perhaps 10 million soviet citizens.

    And if the Holocaust total is 20 million, why does only one group of 6 million get to claim it and profit from it?

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    • Replies: @Yada yada
    Don't you know, only Jewish lives matter? They're more important than you. They can murder millions under communism, but we're not allowed to talk about those lives. Your gentile life just isn't that important. Only Jews suffer. They are the only people who died EVER since the beginning of time.
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  36. Steven Pinker probably agrees!

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    And when an area is more than any small percentage African, support for any Democrat whosoever skyrockets. What else?
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  37. Wilkey says:

    Angela Merkel ran roughshod over German and EU law by inviting the refugees into Germany and then forcing them on the EU. If she had put her policy up for a referendum it would have failed miserably, yet she is hailed as a hero of democracy. The Polish government is heeding the will of the overwhelming majority of its people, but it is authoritarian.

    And journalists wonder why people no longer trust them.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Aye. Well said.
    , @Eagle Eye
    Angela Merkel is a CIA stooge. Merkel's sudden opening of the floodgates to Muslim migrants after years of planning and preparatory groundwork was ably executed by Obama's CIA, but draws on long-standing, bipartisan Deep State planning.

    Draconian "hate speech" laws are now in effect in most European countries and enforced vigorously to ensure that the destruction of Europe will have become a fait accompli before any serious opposition has a chance to crystallize among the native populace. Counter-immigrant parties are actively undermined through tried-and-true secret service techniques.

    Team Trump is now on the fence as to whether to reverse course or continue with the bipartisan "program." China is watching from the sidelines, waiting for Eurasia to fall into its lap, and planning policies for absorbing Europe. The Muslims themselves are merely extras in a much larger "Great Game." Given the uneasy truce currently prevailing between the CIA and Trump, drastic changes are unlikely.

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  38. Moses says:

    PiS was voted in by the losers – old people, rural people and young people who can’t speak English and won’t get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan.

    Yes, but are they deplorable? Irredeemable even?

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  39. Nico says:
    @DCThrowback
    If your getting paid or promoted means not seeing the obvious, you won't see it. See Silveria, Jay, LTG, Air Force. Under Obama he'd definitely be getting his 4th star. TBD under Trump.

    Re: Jan Teh Gross: "His father was Jewish and his mother was Christian." - wikipedia

    How long until Wikipedia bans its powerful alpha male editors from disclosing subjects' ethnicity in their personal bios?

    Wikipedians already voted to ban “religion” from the sidebar vital data along with a person’s date of birth, party affiliation, etc. I strongly recommend searching down the conversation and reading it. It was very illuminating into the mindset of academics and journalists as well as the complete and utter lack of historical and social sensibility of our times.

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    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat
    Is the Pope Catholic?
    , @larry lurker
    At the bottom of each article you can see the categories the article is included in - very useful for learning things (ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation) that may not be included in the article itself. No sources though.
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  40. AndrewR says:

    I used to sympathize with the Poles, but I’ve read a bit about how hostile many Poles are towards the idea of owning up to the atrocities that were committed against ethnic Germans by Poles after the war, and now frankly I don’t care what happens to Poland. They want to portray themselves as total victims of the Germans. So I say let them get their wish.

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    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    Poles have a lot of guilt for WWII. But so do other countries. Deal wid it! We are all on the same side now!
    , @snorlax
    The expulsion of Germans from E. Europe after WWII was a horrible crime,[1] but I can hardly blame the Poles[2] for not feeling particularly sorry about it after the far worse things the Nazis and Communists[3] did to them.

    The Germans (and not just in the Nazi period) really behaved in a despicable way towards the people who had literally saved German civilization twice (from the Mongols and then the Turks, and arguably also from the advancing Red Army at the end of WWI).

    [1] But, like African slavery, one that largely left the victimized populations much better off than if they had remained in place.
    [2] Or even the Czechs, who were arguably mistreating their German minority prior to the war, and whom, speaking relatively, the German occupiers treated much "better" than the Poles, both actually and in their future plans (deindustrialization and forced Germanization for the Czechs, extermination for the bulk of the "subhuman" Poles, with the most "Aryan"-looking saved for sexual or menial enslavement).
    [3] Germany's fault for partitioning Poland with Stalin, then starting and losing their war with him.
    , @Daniel H
    What hostility? The historical facts are there. Do you expect Poland to apologize for seizing these lands?
    Dream on. Germany started the war. Germany had evil intentions for all the unfortunate peoples conquered by their army. So Poland expelled all Germans from East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia. These had been contested lands and Poland was determined to make sure they would never be contested again.

    The Germans brought this upon themselves. The Poles never harassed German minorities in Danzig, had no intention to do so and had zero interest in making claims on Silesia, Pomerania or East Prussia. If you ask me, considering the atrocities perpetrated by the Germans on the Polish nation, and the plans they had for reducing Poles to be slaves of Germany, the Germans expelled from the German lands got off easy. They were allowed to leave with just the clothes on their backs and whatever they could carry. That is far more privilege than the Germans ever gave the victims of their cruelty.

    Same goes for the Czechs expelling the Germans from the Sudetenland. Again, Germany got off easy for the crimes she committed. But that's the past, and I hold no grudge against today's or tomorrow's Germany for wars/crimes committed in the past. The current generation of Germans bear no responsibility for what their grandfathers / great-grandfathers did.
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  41. Moses says:

    Following the popular will of the people and going counter to German bullying to prohibit Muslims from entering the country is now “anti-democratic.” The satire writes itself.

    War is peace
    Freedom is slavery
    Democracy is anti-democratic

    I stopped taking NYT seriously years ago. It’s like the Onion to me now.

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  42. Mr. Anon says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time…………………………PiS was voted in by the losers – old people, rural people and young people who can’t speak English and won’t get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan.

    Gosh, imagine that! People whom you casually write-off as “losers” express anti-semitism to your face. I wonder why that might be?

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    • Agree: utu, Miro23
    • Replies: @Bubba
    Amen brother!!!! Great comment!
    , @snorlax
    Peter's not Jewish, he's Azeri or Central Asian judging by his surname (and his frequently-stated pro-Iran views), so presumably a Shia Muslim (possibly from a secular or Christian-convert family judging by his given name).
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  43. Jack D says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of ’39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have “persuaded” more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn’t make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too – they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel – they were all over the place so it’s impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, “the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you’re next.” Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today’s Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right – the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today’s Polish rightists are not focused on Poland’s almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    The Jedwabne pogrom was organized by the Germans.
    , @Beckow
    Overall a good summary, but why this random line:

    Russians showed up and things got even worse
     
    Here are the facts: Germans murdered 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Polish Catholics, 20% of pre-war population was murdered by Germans. They also almost completely destroyed Poland, Germans literally levelled Warsaw to the ground.

    Russians (as part of Soviet Union) expelled about 1 million Poles in 1939-40, many Jews who ended up surviving the war because of that. They also killed around 30-40k right-wing Polish opponents who they saw as their declared enemy. (Lots of that killing was done by Polish Jewish communists, and by Ukrainian nationalists - that area has had a lot of historical scores to settle.)

    Russia also lost half million soldiers liberating Poland from Nazis. Nobody else was going to do it, Poles were slated for extermination by Germans as sub-humans (maybe because they had a hard time telling Jesus from Buddha as Gross points out, or maybe the bathing issue, Germans are fussy).

    So how it 'got worse under Russia'? I am really curious to know what kind of thinking can come to that conclusion. Or is it now a quasi-religious requirement that any idea has to be accompanied by a ritual denunciation of the 'devil', in this case Russia? It undermines your other valid points.

    , @BenKenobi
    "they thought of the Jews the same way Zimbabwe thought of White farmers..."

    Yeah but lack of Jews doesn't cause starvation.

    In fact, the history of Bolshevism shows that a surplus of Jews causes starvation.

    *thinking emoticon*
    , @keuril
    This is an excellent post, really balanced and informative. It shows why Steve has honored you with a “Superposter” golden rectangle around your handle, though for some reason this only appears on my iPad, not on my phone or computer.
    , @a reader

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic.
     
    Is it some incurable illness?
    , @Sam Haysom
    Look how all of sudden tenure on the land does confer legitimacy. God you are so transparent and wordy.
    , @peakhunter
    Let's provide even more nuance, shall we?

    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.
     
    If I could find ONE word to describe Gross it would *be* "ignorant". He is being widely accused of making up facts, distorting the evidence, using vast generalizations, nation shaming & going with all this bullshit abroad, to the biggest audiences like the NYT, and pretending he is some sort of "historian".

    He said 1600 people were killed in Jedwabne. Actual toll was 340. And it was German inspired, part of the wider operation. And the Jews were accused of communist sympathies. And it was done by a group of dudes, not the entire town. It's almost as if *gasp* it's all complicated.

    The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans
     
    There was no official collaboration with the Germans. Do you know why? Because Hitler didn't want to. He knew, based on his past observations, that Poles can't be trusted, we would find any opportunity to resist. We would only make decent slaves or should be extreminated altogether. The Polish Underground State classified those people as traitors and executed them.

    were not kind to Polish fascists.
     
    I hope you are being ironic here because it borders on libel.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers.
     
    Poland was off the map for nearly 150 years and had to fight tooth & nail for its survival. Jews, with their Zionism and above-than-average love for Bolshevism and not-really-that-strong love for Poland were a natural internal enemy for the nationalists, as the nationalists were natural enemy for the Jews & Zionists. We can comfortably dismiss this as tribal warfare & not try to paint one or the other as either oppressor or the victim.

    Ironic enough, Jan Mosdorf, the leader of pre-WWII Radical Nationalists, was executed in Auschwitz for helping the Jews.
    , @Philopolonist
    I think Jack D is largely correct in his balanced assessment. There is one important point that he omits from his account of Jedwabne, however. At least, as I understand it.

    In September 1939, Poland was invaded from both sides---by the Germans from the West and shortly thereafter by the Russians from the East. Poland was divided as planned in the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Jedwabne was in the Russian zone of occupation.

    Two years later in June 1941, Nazi Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union, by way, first, of Soviet-occupied Poland.

    Jedwabne had been under Soviet communist control for two years, therefore, and the population had been subject to the usual communist treatment. Various kinds of persecutions of Polish Catholics, on the one hand. Rising social positions for Jedwabne's Polish Jews, on the other. Jedwabne's Jews were seen as collaborators with the communists.

    It was in 1941 that the horrific destruction of the Jews of Jedwabne took place. Not in 1939. I think this is important for any assessment of the meaning of that event.
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  44. Mr. Anon says:
    @Wilkey
    Angela Merkel ran roughshod over German and EU law by inviting the refugees into Germany and then forcing them on the EU. If she had put her policy up for a referendum it would have failed miserably, yet she is hailed as a hero of democracy. The Polish government is heeding the will of the overwhelming majority of its people, but it is authoritarian.

    And journalists wonder why people no longer trust them.

    Aye. Well said.

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  45. @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.

    Actually that’s total bullshit.

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    • Replies: @snorlax
    No, he's right. There's more open antisemitism in Poland than you'll find almost anywhere else outside of the Muslim world. But it's nothing like it once was, it's not violent, the pogroms aren't about to restart at any moment and I wouldn't think of advising my Jewish friends against going.

    And, in fairness, Polish denunciations of "Jew-Communism" do have some basis in fact, at least when discussing the most repressive period in the 1950s. Also in fairness, the surviving Polish Jews who joined the Stalinist secret police in such large numbers were factually (but not morally) justified in believing they were giving the Poles a taste of their own medicine.

    The movie Ida, which deservedly won the Oscar for Best Foreign-Language Film a few years back, is a compelling and honest view into the tragedies of Poland and of the Polish Jews in the 20th century.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    Spend 5 minutes listening to Radio Maria.
    , @AP

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.

    Actually that’s total bullshit.
     
    Poland certainly isn't antisemitic by Muslim or Nazi standards, they don't advocate harming Jews, nor do they justify or support pogroms or anti-Jewish terrorism; rather Poles tend to be very non-PC about Jews, noticing and openly discussing stuff like clannishness or Jewish successes. In Poland, I've heard several Poles comment about how physically unattractive they view Jews to be. I remember an American visitor being shocked at hearing such comments.

    As victims of Nazi atrocities themselves, Poles also tend not to place World War II-era Jews on a victim pedestal relative to themselves, emphasizing their own suffering, which may be off-putting to some Jewish visitors.
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  46. Moses says:

    Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel…

    Is it possible for a Gentile to be “Righteous” for anything other than helping Jews? Or is Gentiles’ “Righteousness” measured only by the “Are they good for the Jews?” yardstick?

    Would a “Righteous Jew” be one who sticks his neck out for Gentiles? Or just Jews?

    Asking for a friend.

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    • Replies: @snorlax

    The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach), also referred to as the Noahide Laws or the Noachide Laws (from the English transliteration of the Hebrew pronunciation of "Noah"), are a set of imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God [1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]

    Accordingly, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws because they were given by Moses[4] is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[5][6]

    The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated are the following:[7]

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to curse God.
    To establish courts of justice.
    Not to commit murder.
    Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
    Not to steal.
    Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
     
    In seriousness it's a bit much to be offended that the Israeli Holocaust memorial foundation recognizes Gentiles who saved Jews from the Holocaust.
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  47. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus. Their animus, which carries Polish nationalism into such an aggressively xenophobic articulation, springs primarily from a deep pool of ethnic-cum-religious hatred, which is indigenous to Poland and has historically been aimed at Jews.

    Sigh. For Jews, everything is always about Jews.

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  48. Szopen says:

    You are completely wrong. PiS won in every segment of society – in young, old, urban, rural, high educated, low educated. It is true that the margin of victory was larger in uneducated old rural rednecks, but otoh PO won decisively in prisons. Does that mean PO is party of criminals (i mean, they are, but could you conclude that from the data about criminal voting preferences alone)?

    Also, 500 zlotys is often repeated by “mainstream” (ie the lemings) people, who have never talked to PiS voters and they just repeat what they hear in “normal, european” (ie compradorian) media. Don’t fell for that.

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    • Replies: @cliff arroyo
    " PiS won in every segment of society"

    But they won a lot of votes by keeping the party elite/leadership (Kaczyński and Macierewicz especially) out of sight and more or less promising they would play no important part in a PiS government. That didn't last long and they alienated a lot of young people who were voting for a younger generation of politician and not the PRL fossils who ran back in to take over as soon as the votes were counted.

    I spend a lot of my working hours around highly educated young Polish people and none of them can stand the current government (especially Kaczyński or Macierewicz).
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  49. Steve – you may or may not be aware of Gross’ earlier books, which are quite different from the tired, current year stuff you see here.

    Gross wrote two important books in the previous century that focused on the German and Soviet invasions and occupations of Poland during WWII. Both are essentially indictments on the Nazis and Soviets and take them to task for their endless crimes and repressions in Poland during the war years. They are more or less written from a Polish nationalist (or maybe more correctly, statist) perspective and are devoid of any type of cliche wokeness (both were written while Poland was still Communist). Both works address the Jewish angles (as they should) but don’t particularly focus on them.

    It’s worth noting Gross is actually from Poland btw and left in the late 1960s after involvement in anti-Communist protests and in the wake of anti-Semitic purge of some of the few remaining Jews from the Party.

    But times change, of course. In the new millennium he has focused much more on Polish anti-Semitism, writing books on the 1946 pogrom in Kielce as well as the controversial ‘Neighbors’ about a nasty 1941 incident in which Polish civilians in Jedwabne, fresh off of nearly two years of Soviet occupation and repression (which Gross had examined thoroughly in a 1988 book), took out their anger on Jews as the German army came through in the initial weeks of the Barbarossa Operation.

    I do recommend his earlier works highly – they provide an interesting contrast with this Op-Ed and really do illustrate how much has changed since the Cold War.

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  50. Anon 2 says:

    It’s always refreshing for me to interact with Israeli Jews
    as compared to the American Jews. For the latter it’s
    always 1933, especially for the older generation, those
    in their 60s or 70s. The Israelis, by comparison, are a breath
    of fresh air. They have a country to run so they’ve moved on.
    I’d venture to say that the younger Jews who are often only
    half- or one-quarter Jewish have also managed to move on.

    It’s very similar to the difference between the American blacks
    and the blacks from Africa.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Big Bill
    So true. Israelis are pretty normal, healthy, ethnocentric, quasi-racist folks, much like everyone else on the planet. Galut Jews, however, are another story. Forget "next year in Jerusalem." Make it this year.
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  51. Mr. Anon says:

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have “persuaded” more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn’t make it) to leave before the Germans showed up.

    Those damned Poles! Why didn’t they have the decency to launch a pogrom!

    But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    Perhaps the Selucid Greeks felt the same way about the Maccabees.

    That came off as a highly tendentious and ethnically self-interested reading of polish history. They were damned when they did, and damned when they didn’t.

    The Poles are entitled to their history, their traditions, and their right-wing. And, no, not everything is all about your tribe and its history of perpetual grievance against those among whom they live.

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    • Agree: Miro23
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  52. Semion says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    A bit curious here… could you give some examples of anti-semitic remarks you have heard recently from Poles and the context in which those remarks were made?

    I would appreciate that, and I guess many other readers looking to form a balanced opinion also would.

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  53. Mr. Anon says:

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.

    I wonder, is Israel a very anti-polish country, even today?

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  54. Svigor says:

    Eastern Europe is where Jews were at their exploitative/oppressive worst. Going into modernity, they hadn’t built a good reputation for themselves in the region. They didn’t exactly acquit themselves well there leading up to and during WWII, either. Or after, for that matter.

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  55. Svigor says:

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains).

    I suppose whether they were right is down to the economic niche in question. E.g., in the middle ages, it was tax farming. I.e., “hey, monarch/noble classes, I can squeeze more revenue out of your peasants than those schlubs working for you now; they have a shred of fellow-feeling for their countrymen, but we don’t.” During the Soviet era, it was something similar.

    But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    Maybe the Poles felt like they’d never invited the Jews, never welcomed them, and acting otherwise would amount to an invitation, or a welcome? How great do Jews expect Native Americans to feel about the White Man? The Poles were in Poland first, no? Why should we let Jews hold Poles to a different standard?

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  56. dearieme says:

    The Poles were unmanly enough to allow themselves to be bullied into converting from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism. No doubt they’ll make good moslems eventually.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Well, no country has historically become Protestant in the first case without bullying from a few rich jerks who wanted to take over monasteries.

    So there. Na-na-na-na-na-na, as they say.
    , @polskijoe
    Poland was never Protestant.
    There was a time when some of the "elites" and parts were turning protestant.
    Thankfully that failed. I want none of that "Christian" Zionism or liberal Protestant stuff
    which has effect the vast majority of Protestants in the white world.

    It was majority Catholic for almost all of 1000 years.
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  57. @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    The Jedwabne pogrom was organized by the Germans.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Gross didn't think so. Let's say it's "controversial". Naturally the Poles would prefer to blame it all on the Germans. Reality is very complicated and filled with shades of gray. As I said above, Polish behavior ranged from abominable to indifferent to heroic - it's impossible to generalize.
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  58. Beckow says:
    @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    Overall a good summary, but why this random line:

    Russians showed up and things got even worse

    Here are the facts: Germans murdered 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Polish Catholics, 20% of pre-war population was murdered by Germans. They also almost completely destroyed Poland, Germans literally levelled Warsaw to the ground.

    Russians (as part of Soviet Union) expelled about 1 million Poles in 1939-40, many Jews who ended up surviving the war because of that. They also killed around 30-40k right-wing Polish opponents who they saw as their declared enemy. (Lots of that killing was done by Polish Jewish communists, and by Ukrainian nationalists – that area has had a lot of historical scores to settle.)

    Russia also lost half million soldiers liberating Poland from Nazis. Nobody else was going to do it, Poles were slated for extermination by Germans as sub-humans (maybe because they had a hard time telling Jesus from Buddha as Gross points out, or maybe the bathing issue, Germans are fussy).

    So how it ‘got worse under Russia’? I am really curious to know what kind of thinking can come to that conclusion. Or is it now a quasi-religious requirement that any idea has to be accompanied by a ritual denunciation of the ‘devil’, in this case Russia? It undermines your other valid points.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    They certainly got worse for Polish fascists and for many of them it was well deserved that things got worse for them.

    But, it is really not necessary for me to list the evil deeds of Stalin. He was no better in Poland than he was elsewhere. There are volumes filled with his murderous deeds - you are not fooling anyone by pretending otherwise. The Russians took Poland not out of any altruism but because Stalin wanted it for himself. I am not going to defend the Communists any more than I defend the Nazis. A pox on both their houses.
    , @sailerfan5000

    Poles were slated for extermination by Germans as sub-humans
     
    Is there any source for this? People make claims like this regarding what the Nazis would have done had they won the war but there never seems to be any provided evidence or context.

    I understand Isteve commentators loath to be associated with all the National Socialists on the alt-right, but they seem to be conspicuously devoid of having skepticism of the victor's narrative of WW2. You guys are people who generally show skepticism of all the other narratives from both present day (muslims/immigration is great!) to history (civil rights movement was all black run and great for the nation!), but when someone claims Hitler planned to to X/Y/Z to some population of over 20+ million people, no one seems to raise an eyebrow.

    I'm not saying you all need to put on the swastika patch, but the Nazi Demon narrative is pretty integral in how they keep the alt-right suppressed. The standard narrative is that the second you start accepting racial differences as a White European you open the door to thinking of others as "sub-human," and you'll have no qualms about putting people in death camps. Much as we make fun of leftists for lazily calling people "nazis" to end a conversation, there's a reason they still do it because it still holds a certain amount of effectiveness.

    And before you call me a you-know-what, I like to make it clear that I'm glad Hitler shot himself in his bunker, and glad the Anglos were able to reach western Germany before it was too late. The National Socialists really do represent the upper limits of human brutality. (emphasis on the HUMAN, not the White Male authoritarian personality disorder BS).
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  59. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    It’s funny how every time the Jews call for genocide against some other group, be it the Germans, the Poles, or the Palestinians, they always justify their animus with tales of X group’s alleged past cruelties. And yet it’s never examined whether any past behavior of the Jews precipitated these alleged events. Naturally, of course, given the friendliness and loyalty of modern day Jews to their biggest host countries, we know that every past conflict between Gentile and Jew must have been the product of unthinking prejudice by the Gentiles against their Jewish neighbors.

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  60. They’re really trying to avoid a North Korea/South Korea situation where in 30-40 years Germany is a disintegrating hellhole and Poland is a transparently superior country despite coming from a far lower base, with history judging them as psychopathic fools. If they break everyone while they still have power they can pretend it was all some kind of historical act of God.

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  61. These drooling sanctimonious patronizing Fake News morons should go a little bit further south and ask the Greeks, the Bulgarians and the Romanians about Muslims. Down in the Balkans they know – they should – they were enslaved by the Muslim Turks from before the New World was discovered to, in some cases, after Lincoln freed the American slaves. The concepts of “Dhimmihood” and “Devshirme” are very much worth knowing for all self-righteous and opinionated self-professed foes of slavery.

    What we’re seeing here is an expression of Western mainstream liberal bigotry. There are groups it’s OK to despise in the West, and Slavs and Eastern Europeans in general and Russians in particular are one of those groups. Two other ones are Christians and rednecks/rustics/provincials. That’s why the absurd Russiagate narrative receives so much traction – it appeals to deep-seated and savage prejudices of modern liberals.

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  62. utu says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Perhaps Poles are onto something. Do you think that Jews are as smart as you and get the hint?

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  63. Jack D says:
    @reiner Tor
    The Jedwabne pogrom was organized by the Germans.

    Gross didn’t think so. Let’s say it’s “controversial”. Naturally the Poles would prefer to blame it all on the Germans. Reality is very complicated and filled with shades of gray. As I said above, Polish behavior ranged from abominable to indifferent to heroic – it’s impossible to generalize.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    If you're familiar with standard holocaust literature, you're aware that the Germans (Heydrich et al) gave explicit orders to encourage locals in areas captured from the Soviets to commit pogroms. This wasn't always successful, and even where it was, usually some prodding by the Germans was needed. At a minimum, the Germans encouraged the participants.
    , @Beckow

    "Reality is very complicated and filled with shades of gray...Polish behavior ranged from abominable to indifferent to heroic – it’s impossible to generalize."
     
    True, and yet on a meta level, you and Gros generalize. It is a form of 'generalization' to make sweeping statements about Poles, or Germans, but not about Jews, or Gypsies, or Ottomans, etc... that's the point.

    We all agree that history is complex and 'controversial'. But that's true about all situations, all history, all people. When you apply nuance to one and a sweeping generalization to the other, it is a bit more than being 'controversial', it is a form of subtle propaganda. One could argue that it is the core of modern, academic propaganda.
    , @Anon 2
    Jack D needs to get acquainted with the Yad Vashem
    memorial to the victims of the Holocaust in western
    Jerusalem. It recognizes a certain number of the Righteous
    Among Nations. No country has contributed more of the
    Righteous than Poland, 6706 to be exact. Germany only
    contributed 601, and Russia a pitiful 204. This is despite
    the fact that, unlike in Western Europe, any help offered
    to protect the Jews was instantly punished with death.
    I wonder how many Jews gave their lives to aid the Polish
    Christians three million of whom perished
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  64. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Globalists cry for Mixed Blood again.

    How did mixed-blood come about in the Ottoman Empire? Much imperialism and rape.

    How did mixed-blood come about in Latin America? Much imperialism and rape.

    How did mixed-blood come about in Central Asia? Much imperialism and rape.

    How does China intended to fix its Tibetan problem? Blood mixing.

    How did some blacks become mulattoes in the past? White Master power over blacks.
    How come white women are having mulatto babies? Black men as master race over cucked out white men.

    What did the US do in Vietnam during the war. Turned countless women into whores and race-mixed with them and left their kids behind.

    Sordid history of race-mixing.

    PS. New York Times will be more consistent if it insisted on Israel allowing Right of Return and massive blood-mixing between Jews and Arabs.

    PSS. Even though Jewish-European blood is mixed, Jewish community made a great effort to minimize the mixing over the yrs prior to modern era. That is how the identity survived.
    As long as a people are not imperialist and don’t seek domination over OTHERS, what does it matter if they prefer their own blood in their own land? Sounds DEFENSIVE to me. Also, if Poles insist on Polish blood, then there is less chance that Polish women will become commoditized whores to be bought and sold by globalists.

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  65. @Jack D
    Gross didn't think so. Let's say it's "controversial". Naturally the Poles would prefer to blame it all on the Germans. Reality is very complicated and filled with shades of gray. As I said above, Polish behavior ranged from abominable to indifferent to heroic - it's impossible to generalize.

    If you’re familiar with standard holocaust literature, you’re aware that the Germans (Heydrich et al) gave explicit orders to encourage locals in areas captured from the Soviets to commit pogroms. This wasn’t always successful, and even where it was, usually some prodding by the Germans was needed. At a minimum, the Germans encouraged the participants.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Encouragement wasn't always needed, especially in the Ukraine. In Lvov (Lemberg, Lviv, however you want to call it) the Ukrainians were so brutal that the Germans told them to tone it down a little. Poland wasn't usually that bad, but there were plenty of horrible things - Polish extortionists who would blackmail hidden Jews (and then turn them over to the Germans when they had extorted everything), Poles who would turn in Jews for a reward of a bag of sugar, etc. When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren't always who you think they are, in either direction.

    Pre-war Poland was not like modern day America where anti-Semites usually feel the need to disguise their views in public - plenty (though by no means all or even most) Poles wore their anti-Semitism openly and proudly, as explicit planks of their right wing political platform. But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government (which, while in some ways anti-Semitic after the death of Pilsudski, was still committed to rule of law) were well able to hold their own until the Germans showed up. But Poland had plenty of native anti-Semites who didn't need encouragement from the Germans - license alone was quite sufficient.
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  66. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    You’d think Poland would get some credit for being one of the few countries not have mass expulsions of their Jews to the point of having some of their Largest cities be Majority Jewish, but that almost never seems to come up. Or for being one of the most “tolerant” places from the 1300s to 1700s or whenever, and for having amazingly high standards of Liberty for Eastern Europe and even Western Europe at the time. But no, they’re bad and evil for defending themselves and even people relatively far away from Marauding invaders during this time period!

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  67. Beckow says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    “PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons – they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support…”

    You realize that those two are related? ‘Nationalists’ see child support as a better way to maintain population than mass migration from the Third World. And everyone else sees it that way: children are costly in advanced societies. There are basically two choices: import people with all the not-so-good consequences or support families.

    Waiting with family support until the mass migration has started (e.g. Sweden, Germany…) makes it much worse. It will be the migrant families who quickly figure out the benefits and take advantage of them. See Germany or Sweden today where Third World migrants have been running a very profitable racket with large families and all the sick relatives that they can bring in. And natives are forced to pay for it – anything else would be ‘discrimination’.

    Polish support for mass migration is less than 10% (maybe 25% in Warsaw), so the previous government also had to appear anti mass migration. But it is not about appearances, but actual policies – Tusk’s Platform agreed to migrant relocation. And Tusk was rewarded with an EU sinecure. That’s why they lost so badly.

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  68. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Why is conquered blood better than unconquered blood?

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  69. Thea says:

    Ot but a navy pilot drew male private parts in the sky. This is front page news because live in clown upside down land. Also a mother was worried about how to explain it to her son who saw it. Really if he doesn’t know…

    http://www.wtsp.com/mobile/article/news/graphic-navy-admits-to-being-involved-in-obscene-skydrawings-spotted-in-okanogan-co/67-492521457

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  70. BenKenobi says:
    @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    “they thought of the Jews the same way Zimbabwe thought of White farmers…”

    Yeah but lack of Jews doesn’t cause starvation.

    In fact, the history of Bolshevism shows that a surplus of Jews causes starvation.

    *thinking emoticon*

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  71. syonredux says:

    Until very recently Poles had never given much thought to Islam beyond occasionally expressing a sense of historical pride that a Polish king, Jan Sobieski, defeated the Turks in a 17th-century battle near Vienna, thus saving Christian Europe from the infidels.

    The battle to which Gross so obliquely refers is the 1683 Battle of Vienna; it’s kinda important:

    The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlen Berge or Kahlenberg; Polish: bitwa pod Wiedniem or odsiecz wiedeńska (The Relief of Vienna); Modern Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması, Ottoman Turkish: Beç Ḳalʿası Muḥāṣarası) took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna on 12 September 1683 after the imperial city had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. The battle was fought by the Habsburg Monarchy, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire, under the command of King John III Sobieski against the Ottomans and their vassal and tributary states. The battle marked the first time the Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire had cooperated militarily against the Ottomans, and it is often seen as a turning point in history, after which “the Ottoman Turks ceased to be a menace to the Christian world”. In the ensuing war that lasted until 1699, the Ottomans lost almost all of Hungary to the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

    Maybe Gross would have preferred a Muslim victory…..

    Poland’s leaders have let an evil genie out of the bottle. What we’ve witnessed on the streets of Warsaw represents a threat not only to liberal democracy in Poland but also to the stability and welfare of the European Union.

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …

    It’s always 1933-’45…..Maybe Gross hasn’t quite grasped the fact that history is not static….To quote Marine Le Pen:

    “The reality is that there exist in France associations that are supposedly representative of French Jews, which have stuck with a software that came out of the Second World War,” she said, meaning that members of the Jewish leadership are still preoccupied with the threat of Nazi-like fascism. “For decades they have continued to fight against an anti-Semitism that no longer exists in France, for reasons of—how should I say this?—intellectual laziness. And by a form of submission to the politically correct. And while they were doing this, while they were fighting against an enemy that no longer existed, an anti-Semitism was gaining force in France stemming notably from the development of fundamentalist Islamist thought.”

    http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/

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    • Replies: @Rod1963
    Yep they are still stuck in 39-45. But it's been very useful for them. They've made tremendous social and financial gains since '45. Not to mention being able to guilt trip whites who had association with what happened in Europe and to intimidate and punish whites who notice their control of the media, finance, and foreign policy.

    The only drawback is that they are now enablers of Islamic terrorism and colonization of the West which will destroy them, They are being driven out of France, England and in time Germany.

    Mutti Merkel did them no favors when unleashed the Muslim invasion on Europe.
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  72. anonmn says:
    @JohnnyD
    I don't see how the Poles are being "undemocratic." The majority of their people voted to keep the migrants out. It's not like this nationalism was forced upon the Poles, the way Merkel forced her people to accept millions of refugees. Also, it's the German government which is throwing people in jail for complaining about the government's immigration policies.

    You should know by now that “undemocratic” means anything that contests the prevailing narrative. It’s as simple as that.

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  73. Rod1963 says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    If you listen to the Jews the only people who suffered were them. It’s always been their SOP for the last 40 years and probably longer.

    To a Jew the only people who matter are Jews.

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  74. What a surprise that Jack D, a Jewish ethnocentrist, is spamming the comments once again. Get to work, Steve and stop dithering.

    P.S. (((Jan T Gross)))

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  75. Beckow says:
    @Jack D
    Gross didn't think so. Let's say it's "controversial". Naturally the Poles would prefer to blame it all on the Germans. Reality is very complicated and filled with shades of gray. As I said above, Polish behavior ranged from abominable to indifferent to heroic - it's impossible to generalize.

    “Reality is very complicated and filled with shades of gray…Polish behavior ranged from abominable to indifferent to heroic – it’s impossible to generalize.”

    True, and yet on a meta level, you and Gros generalize. It is a form of ‘generalization’ to make sweeping statements about Poles, or Germans, but not about Jews, or Gypsies, or Ottomans, etc… that’s the point.

    We all agree that history is complex and ‘controversial’. But that’s true about all situations, all history, all people. When you apply nuance to one and a sweeping generalization to the other, it is a bit more than being ‘controversial‘, it is a form of subtle propaganda. One could argue that it is the core of modern, academic propaganda.

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  76. Merkel cries out in pain as she rape(((fugee)))s the Slavs.

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  77. Rod1963 says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    American Jews pretty much hate all whites that are not to the Left of Soros and actively working to destruction of Europe and America. One just has to pick up the NYT and read the editorial section to see that.

    And what”s wrong with helping families pay for child support? Oh that’s right these are white and Catholics, bad people by your definition. The rest reads like the typical Jewish/White Liberal screed against Trump voters you can find in the NYT or LAT.

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  78. Assuming the left in this country gains full power at some point, a question I’ve had is how they and their neocon allies plan to carry out all the wars they’d like to fight. I’m figuring that the Scots-Irish fighting types that like to volunteer for our armed forces aren’t going too be keen on attacking Poland to get them to accept diversity. That’s where the draft will come in. And mark my words, it will be the left that reinstates it. It likely will be some backdoor provision; a Dem or RINO presidential candidate will suggest that mandatory “national service” be passed in order to promote national cohesiveness (which we will need in order to manage our multi-cult society).

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    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat
    The draft will never come back.

    With a draft, people start to really care about where the army is being sent. That's the last thing our ruling class wants - to have to make their case to the general public before committing the military to some whackistan. They learned from Vietnam.
    , @RadicalCenter
    My children will NOT be conscripted to die and kill needlessly for this empire. I will help them leave the USA if necessary. And they will have the language skills to live and thrive in a lot of other places.
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  79. “Poles had never given much thought to Islam”

    Does he even realize there’s an indigenous muslim minority (Tatars in the northeast)?

    I’ve never heard any Pole say a bad word about the Tatars (known among other things for their fierce Polish patriotism).

    I have heard that relations are not always easy between them and more recent arrivals (and that Saudi missionary efforts among the Tatars were not tremendously successful)

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    • Replies: @Anon

    Saudi missionary efforts among the Tatars were not tremendously successful
     
    Good for them!
    , @RadicalCenter
    The so-called Lipka Tartars are a tiny, insignificant minority of about twenty thousand. Proves nothing about how Muslims can be expected to behave if they achieve real numbers in Poland.
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  80. syonredux says:

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …

    Which has, you know, something to do with the fact that the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Jews, and lots of Jews lived in Poland….

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    How many?
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  81. a reader says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time.

    Is it some genetic disease?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    It's why 80% of Jews lived in Poland for centuries. They just really love antisemites.
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  82. keuril says:
    @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    This is an excellent post, really balanced and informative. It shows why Steve has honored you with a “Superposter” golden rectangle around your handle, though for some reason this only appears on my iPad, not on my phone or computer.

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  83. a reader says:
    @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic.

    Is it some incurable illness?

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    "There is no question that the second-century Jews were unashamedly anti-Christian."

    And the fourth-century Jews.

    And the nineteenth-century Jews.

    And the twentieth-Century Jews.

    And the twenty-first-century Jews.

    And I say this as someone who grew up in a heavily Jewish area and can relate to and understand them quite well for a Goy. My best friend here in L.A. is a politically conservative Jewish guy who is OB-SESSED with his Jewish identity. He is comfortable enough with me that he has let slip his rather vicious bias against Slavs, especially Russia and Poland. I had to remind him, hey you're my bud but please remember that I am both Christian and part Slavic.
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  84. Anti-Semitism, as is well established, is a complete mystery! Since there can be no excuse, there can be no reason, so let us not reason. On the other hand, by 1750 80% of the worlds Jewry lived in Poland. 80%, They were first imported by Polish nobles, and not for the best of reasons. It did not work out well for the peasant. So it began.

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  85. Zach says:

    “Angela Merkel’s sudden whim of inviting a million marching men into the heart of Europe”

    Although I haven’t any proof for it, I have to think Obama twisted Merkel’s arm, forcing her to open the borders. Merkel had been critical of multiculturalism and Obama need a place to put the Syrians that he had made homeless. Maybe she took them in as part of a deal to get Ukraine in the EU?

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  86. @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    You’re telling us that in Poland, the two most powerful parties are BOTH anti-immigration?

    Be still, my beating heart!

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Is Polish too hard for a 40- or 50-something to learn decently well? Hmm....
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  87. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    That was the second time the Ottomans reached Vienna, the first being in 1529 under Suleiman the Magnificent. On both occasions they were stymied.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Are you sad or happy Turkish Muslims were stymied in their jihad on Vienna?
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  88. a reader says:
    @syonredux

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    Which has, you know, something to do with the fact that the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Jews, and lots of Jews lived in Poland....

    How many?

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    How many?
     
    In 1939?

    In 1933, approximately 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe, comprising 1.7% of the total European population. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world's Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million.
     

    Eastern Europe

    The majority of Jews in prewar Europe resided in eastern Europe. The largest Jewish communities in this area were in Poland, with about 3,000,000 Jews (9.5%); the European part of the Soviet Union, with 2,525,000 (3.4%); and Romania, with 756,000 (4.2%). The Jewish population in the three Baltic states totaled 255,000: 95,600 in Latvia, 155,000 in Lithuania, and 4,560 in Estonia. Here, Jews comprised 4.9%, 7.6%, and 0.4% of each country's population, respectively, and 5% of the region's total population.
     
    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161
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  89. Name says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way.

    Utter bullshit. A key reason why they lost was because they gave into pressure to put a refugee quota in place. And they are not at all like czech leftists(where even the communists are against multiculti). Polish liberals are closer to their Western vermin.

    You claim not to be a Jew, but you argue like one. Full of barely-veiled hatred of Poles and getting everything wrong.

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    I was in Poland during the elections. Where were you? Immigration was not an issue with most PiS voters I know. Kukiz voters were/are concerned about immigration. Most PiS voters were just sick of PO arrogance and corruption, and watching a small class of privileged people get very rich while most Poles continue to struggle. Emigration was a bigger issue than immigration because a lot of rural Poles find it humiliating that their sons/daughters need to go abroad to make money.
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  90. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Didn’t Poland invite Jews to live in Poland while other nations expelled them? Yet how many Jews tried to make friendships with their Polish neighbors, let alone even learn the Polish language?

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  91. TheJester says:

    I recall an aphorism voiced decades ago by a historian. “If the Germans had not gotten to the Jews first, the Poles would have ..,”

    Then I get my “23&me” DNA analysis and roam their site. Genetic homelands? The genetic homeland of the Ashkenazi Jews is POLAND.

    Then I read a bit about how Poles and Jews migrated westward after the last partition of Poland by Prussia, Russia, and Austria in 1795. Technically now “Prussians”, Polish Jews and … well Poles … migrated westward to participate in German industrialization.

    However, the roles were different. The Jews had been the estate managers for the Prussian/Polish aristocracy; they managed the Polish peasants. Nothing moved in the historic Polish economy unless the Jews managed it. In Germany, the Jews played the same role as managers. Instead of peasants, the Polish immigrants played the role of industrial workers. In both “countries”, the Poles felt exploited. They were.

    As a measure of Polish sentiment, Joseph Conrad (a.k.a. Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski) wrote a short story, “Amy Foster, about a poor Pole from Central Europe whose family is scammed by Jews (Jews sold them a non-existent ticket on a non-existent ship) and, instead of sailing from Hamburg to America, he is shipwrecked off the coast of England. (Would Joseph Conrad be considered anti-Semitic in today’s world … or, was he just relating the collective experience of the Polish people.)

    So, the Poles have historical reasons to be anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish. In 1683, the Muslims were set on conquering Europe and “feeding their horses in the Vatican.” The Polish cavalry stopped them at the gates of Vienna. They saved Europe for Christianity and Western Civilization. So, the Poles have the national experience of concluding that Muslims are indeed their enemies. “Been there … done that!” as the saying goes.

    Then, the Polish people have hundreds of years of experience of being exploited by the Jewish merchant class … an experience that Americans have also experienced and are just finding the courage to discuss in open conversation.

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  92. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @cliff arroyo
    "Poles had never given much thought to Islam"

    Does he even realize there's an indigenous muslim minority (Tatars in the northeast)?

    I've never heard any Pole say a bad word about the Tatars (known among other things for their fierce Polish patriotism).

    I have heard that relations are not always easy between them and more recent arrivals (and that Saudi missionary efforts among the Tatars were not tremendously successful)

    Saudi missionary efforts among the Tatars were not tremendously successful

    Good for them!

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  93. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    According to Wikipedia, “World War II fatality statistics vary, with estimates of total deaths ranging from 50 million to more than 80 million.” So apparently 44 million to 74 million Gentiles died in WW II.

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  94. As we all have learned from Polish Jokes, Poles are ignorant buffoons.

    Ah, but there are no Polish jokes. All they get are generic backward-people gags. Irish, Jewish, Mexican, black, etc., jokes are tailored to the race. Not for Poles.

    Speaking of ignorant buffoons:

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/man-forgets-where-he-parks-his-car-then-finds-it-20-years-later/ar-BBF5mZ2?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

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  95. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @a reader

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time.
     
    Is it some genetic disease?

    It’s why 80% of Jews lived in Poland for centuries. They just really love antisemites.

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  96. PeteW says:

    “springs primarily from a deep pool of ethnic-cum-religious hatred”

    Whereas the globalists want to ensure young Polish women are introduced to a great deal of ethnic cum. No thanks.

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  97. Lex says:

    Is there something wrong with my comment that awaits moderation?

    Btw, here is something crazy from Jewish and leftist Polish perspective(guy speaking is Sławomir Sierakowski head of Soros sponsored Krytyka Polityczna and contributor for NYT): https://youtu.be/UAkcT5_MGqk?t=49

    It’s so insane it’s difficult not to laugh.

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    • Replies: @Bubba
    Until George Soros gives his entire fortune to the Jews & Gentiles from which he stole in WWII, then this ridiculous speech is completely moot. George Soros is the definition of chutzpah and I don’t mean it in an admirable way.
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  98. Rod1963 says:
    @syonredux

    Until very recently Poles had never given much thought to Islam beyond occasionally expressing a sense of historical pride that a Polish king, Jan Sobieski, defeated the Turks in a 17th-century battle near Vienna, thus saving Christian Europe from the infidels.
     
    The battle to which Gross so obliquely refers is the 1683 Battle of Vienna; it's kinda important:

    The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlen Berge or Kahlenberg; Polish: bitwa pod Wiedniem or odsiecz wiedeńska (The Relief of Vienna); Modern Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması, Ottoman Turkish: Beç Ḳalʿası Muḥāṣarası) took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna on 12 September 1683 after the imperial city had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. The battle was fought by the Habsburg Monarchy, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire, under the command of King John III Sobieski against the Ottomans and their vassal and tributary states. The battle marked the first time the Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire had cooperated militarily against the Ottomans, and it is often seen as a turning point in history, after which "the Ottoman Turks ceased to be a menace to the Christian world". In the ensuing war that lasted until 1699, the Ottomans lost almost all of Hungary to the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

    Maybe Gross would have preferred a Muslim victory.....

    Poland’s leaders have let an evil genie out of the bottle. What we’ve witnessed on the streets of Warsaw represents a threat not only to liberal democracy in Poland but also to the stability and welfare of the European Union.

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …

     

    It's always 1933-'45.....Maybe Gross hasn't quite grasped the fact that history is not static....To quote Marine Le Pen:

    “The reality is that there exist in France associations that are supposedly representative of French Jews, which have stuck with a software that came out of the Second World War,” she said, meaning that members of the Jewish leadership are still preoccupied with the threat of Nazi-like fascism. “For decades they have continued to fight against an anti-Semitism that no longer exists in France, for reasons of—how should I say this?—intellectual laziness. And by a form of submission to the politically correct. And while they were doing this, while they were fighting against an enemy that no longer existed, an anti-Semitism was gaining force in France stemming notably from the development of fundamentalist Islamist thought.”

     

    http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/

    Yep they are still stuck in 39-45. But it’s been very useful for them. They’ve made tremendous social and financial gains since ’45. Not to mention being able to guilt trip whites who had association with what happened in Europe and to intimidate and punish whites who notice their control of the media, finance, and foreign policy.

    The only drawback is that they are now enablers of Islamic terrorism and colonization of the West which will destroy them, They are being driven out of France, England and in time Germany.

    Mutti Merkel did them no favors when unleashed the Muslim invasion on Europe.

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    • Replies: @Anemone
    What if that was the goal all along?

    The ingathering of diaspora Jews to Israel IS one of the main goals of zionism.

    It is a feature, not a bug. And it is working. The number of Jews making aliyah is at an all time high.
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  99. Anon 2 says:
    @Jack D
    Gross didn't think so. Let's say it's "controversial". Naturally the Poles would prefer to blame it all on the Germans. Reality is very complicated and filled with shades of gray. As I said above, Polish behavior ranged from abominable to indifferent to heroic - it's impossible to generalize.

    Jack D needs to get acquainted with the Yad Vashem
    memorial to the victims of the Holocaust in western
    Jerusalem. It recognizes a certain number of the Righteous
    Among Nations. No country has contributed more of the
    Righteous than Poland, 6706 to be exact. Germany only
    contributed 601, and Russia a pitiful 204. This is despite
    the fact that, unlike in Western Europe, any help offered
    to protect the Jews was instantly punished with death.
    I wonder how many Jews gave their lives to aid the Polish
    Christians three million of whom perished

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I am very familiar with the Righteous Gentiles of Poland. In general, I am much more personally familiar with the behavior of Poles and Jews and Germans and Ukrainians and Russians during the war than I would prefer to be - if I had my choice it would be something that I read about in a history book rather than hearing directly from my parents and other surviving relatives. I can only repeat what I said before. War brings out both the best and worst in humans. People's behavior ranged all the way from saintly to indifferent to devilish. Everyone must be judged as an individual and not as a member of a race. The saintly deeds of the righteous do not pardon the deeds of the evil nor vice versa.
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  100. benjaminl says:

    If we compare Andrzej Fister-Stoga’s 2007 review of Jan Gross in First Things with Norman Davies’s 1987 exchange with Abraham Brumberg in the New York Review of Books (cited by Fister-Stoga), the echoes are really striking. You might almost Notice a Pattern:

    [MORE]

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/001-fear-and-trembling

    Fister-Stoga:

    At the outset of his book, Gross clearly states that “the nature of prejudice is to make unwarranted totalizing claims, whereas understanding advances through elucidation of careful distinctions.” In his analysis, he makes much needed and careful distinctions when writing about the behavior of people of Jewish origin. Gross indicates, for example, that highly placed Jews in communist security services were “second to none in cruelly abusing their prisoners.” He does not object to their being described as “instrumental in imposing communism on Polish society after the war”a fine proposition, provided that ‘they’ signifies ‘zealous Communist apparatchiks,’ not ‘Jews,’ and that ethnicity does not factor into the equation.” Gross is also careful not to confuse instances of violent behavior with some sort of obsessive hatred. When judging the cruel actions of these communist secret-police officials, who happened to be Jewish, Gross writes: “Frankly, there is not much to say in direct reply except that these were bad people.”

    Gross unfortunately does not make the same analytical effort when examining the behavior of non-Jews. A small minority of Poles violently killed returning Jews is, in Gross’ eye, a warrant to write about all Poles being anti-Semitic. “What stands out on this gruesome occasion” of the Kielce pogrom “is the widely shared sense in Polish society that getting rid of Jews, by killing them if necessary, was permissible.” On the same page, Gross describes a casual conversation between a Polish policeman and a truck driver in which the latter agrees to transport a Jewish woman and her child to be murdered: “The only thing that matters is that [the conversation] could have taken place, indeed that it did take place, and that it was a completely comprehensible exchange between strangers in Poland in Anno Domini 1946.” To make such totalizing statements is simply unfair to the vast majority of Poles who did not participate in violence against Jews.

    It is a pity that Gross was unable to keep to his methodological principles when writing about the behavior of Poles during and after the war but simply lumped them all together: the “bad people” together with the majority of the indifferent and the few noble ones. This is the biggest flaw of an otherwise important work, for it amounts to a failed chance to give a balanced account in an area of study where balanced scholarship is so badly needed.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1987/04/09/poles-and-jews-an-exchange/

    Davies:

    Mr. Brumberg’s frantic efforts to pin the anti-Semitic label onto all manner of Polish individuals and organization—with occasional gestures toward the exceptional “good Pole” or righteous gentile, to prove his rule—can only serve to emphasize the crudity of his favorite weapon. One must seriously inquire whether the concept of anti-Semitism is adequate to the task of defining and explaining the historic conflict of two nations. For one thing, the word “anti-Semitism” appears to be infinitely elastic, being applied to everything from the advocacy of genocide to a dislike for bagels. Nowadays in America, it is widely used to condemn any criticism of Jews, or of the Jewish state, Israel, irrespective of the merits of such criticism. Furthermore, like all its dialectical counterparts, such as “anti-Sovietism,” it can easily be used to smear all expression of dissenting opinion, since any protesters to the smear can automatically be tagged with the same lousy label.

    Worst of all, when applied to complex international or intercommunal relationships, it assumes from the start that the main source of any antagonisms where Jews are involved must lie with the Jews’ opponents. In the nature of things, anti-Semitism cannot be invoked to explore the attitude and conduct of the Semites, nor to consider the happier aspects of the Semites’ relations with their neighbors. When applied to the history of Poles and Jews, it cannot do other than suggest firstly that there are no redeeming features to the tale, and secondly that the Poles are to blame for all the misery.

    Anti-Semitism, therefore, looks to be a sadly blunt and one-sided tool, capable of probing only one side of multidimensional problems. It is as though one were asked to write the history of Ireland armed solely with the concept of “anti-Protestantism,” or to analyze Moslem–Hindu relations in India on the sole basis of “anti-Islamism,” or to expound on Russo-American relations on the sole basis of the “anti-Americanism” of the Russians. No one in his right mind would deny that an irrational hatred of Jews has been a recurrent and deplorable ingredient of Poland’s many social and political conflicts. But that ingredient is but one item in a far more complicated and unsavory menu. Another ingredient is the irrational hatred of some Jews for Poles.

    [...]

    The Yad Vashem archive in Israel, too, provides detailed substantiation of the same picture. “The Jews welcomed the Red Army with joy. The young people spent all their days and evenings with the soldiers.” In Grodno, “all sorts of appointments were filled predominantly with Jews, and the Soviet authorities entrusted them, too, with the top positions.” In Lwów, “I must admit that the majority of positions in the Soviet agencies have been taken by Jews.” A Jewish observer to the pro-Soviet demonstrations in Lwów related, “Whenever a political march, or protest meeting, or some other sort of joyful event took place, the visual effect was unambiguous—Jews.” In Wielkie Oczy, the Jewish doctor recalled how local Jewish youths, having formed themselves into a “Komsomol” toured the countryside smashing Catholic shrines. The references can be found in a recent study of the Soviet deportations from eastern Poland by J.T. and I. Gross, W Czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali: Polska, a Rosja, 1939–1942.9

    In Pinsk, where the population was over 90 percent Jewish, young Jews built an “Arc de Triomphe.”

    The purpose here, of course, is not to demonstrate what one hopes would be taken for granted, namely, that Jews given the chance will behave as well or as badly as anyone else. The purpose is simply to show that the marked increase in anti-Semitism in occupied Poland in 1939–1941 was linked to Jewish conduct. To put the perspective of many Poles emotively, Jews were seen to be dancing on Poland’s grave.

    Naturally, there is more to the story than that. Objectively speaking, there was no reason for Polish Jews as a whole to react to Poland’s downfall in the way that most Poles did, nor for them to share the Polish feeling that collaborating with the invaders was in itself an act of disloyalty. Nor should one forget that the prevalence of Jews in the Soviet organs of oppression did not stop the Soviets, once established, from devastating Jewish life in the Soviet zone.

    There is much more in Davies’s response, but basically, he (like Fister-Stoga 20 years later) tries to acknowledge the complexity and shades of gray among the respective ethnic communities, being balanced while also making judgments. Whereas Brumberg, like Jan Gross, focuses more on demonizing and defaming the Gentiles.

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    • Replies: @Miro23

    The purpose is simply to show that the marked increase in anti-Semitism in occupied Poland in 1939–1941 was linked to Jewish conduct. To put the perspective of many Poles emotively, Jews were seen to be dancing on Poland’s grave.
     
    Worth repeating, and US Jews are now dancing on the Anglo grave, which may well work in the same way.
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  101. gerbils says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Because Hitler simply did not do enough for Poles to internalize the fear of what Germans are capable of, as a group, when certain circumstances are met. Thanks for the sociology lesson.

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  102. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.

    That just means Poles speak of Jews in the way Jews speak of goyim.

    It evens out.

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    • Agree: Bubba
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  103. Cyrano says:

    I think it’s time for Poland to take one for the team. Their most obsessive dream has always been to be “western”. Having acquired (thanks to the infinite wisdom of their forefathers) a “western” religion, instead of the barbaric eastern mongol horde embraced, despicable, low ranking religion, they are now more than half way there to being fully accepted as true “westerners”.

    The only missing ingredient is to muslimize their country in line with western standards I have no doubt about Poland’s flexibility towards western demands.

    If the west asks them to bend over and take one for the team, with the ultimate prize offered being recognition of Poland as “western” – the Polaks would gladly submit to those demands.

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  104. Pat Casey says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Poland actually is a very anti-Semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it’s not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)

    The Auschwitz convent controversy was one of the most painful and unedifying of the late twentieth century. In late 1984, a small community of Carmelite nuns, whose stated purpose was to give up their lives in prayerful reparation for what had been done to the Jews, had moved into an abandoned building on the border of the concentration camp—Auschwitz I, as it was known, in distinction from the extermination camp at Birkenau, known as Auschwitz II. Protests from Jewish leaders followed…. By the summer of 1989, the situation had once again reached a boiling point, with frequently strident charges and countercharges. The Carmelites were not inclined to leave; nationalistically inclined Polish Catholics saw the international Jewish protests against the convent as an attack on Catholicism itself; Jewish protests at the convent site triggered counter-protests by local Poles and further exacerbated tensions. On July 14, 1989, seven Jews wearing striped concentration camp uniforms and led by New York Rabbi Avraham Weiss climbed over the convent fence and began banging on the convent’s doors and windows, demanding that the nuns abandon the convent. Construction workers making repairs on the second floor of the building dumped water on Weiss and his followers and eventually dragged them away from the site. The police nearby, who had done nothing to stop the demonstrators, did nothing to stop the workers, either, nor did the nuns and a priest who was present. Weiss said that the police had turned their back on Jews “just like your Church did 50 years ago.” Two days later, Weiss’s group was allowed into the courtyard of the Metropolitan Curia at Francszkanska, in Krakow, where they tacked an appeal to Cardinal Macharski on the door, stating that they had come in peace but saying that “as proud Jews we announce—stop praying for the Jews who were killed in the Shoah, let them rest in peace as Jews.” At a later meeting with an archdiocesan official, Weiss’s group charged that the Catholic Church sought to “remove the Jewish character of the Shoah and give it a Christian character.” Weiss and his group returned to the convent the same day, climbed over the fence again, and staged a six-hour demonstration…. By 1993, despite completion of the new center, the nuns had not yet moved. With new protests mounting and some Jewish groups threatening to boycott the mid-April commemoration of of the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, John Paul II intervened again, with a personal letter to the Carmelites….

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    John Paul was a pretty smart guy as well as very spiritual so if he thought it was a bad idea then maybe it really was a bad idea? What would you think of say a Buddhist monastery on the Gettysburg battlefield?
    , @Johann Ricke

    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it’s not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)
     
    Imagine if Muslims built a mosque on the borders of the World Trade Center, promising to pray for all the dead infidels on 9/11. Except 6m infidels died on 9/11. Imagine if the Muslim reaction was to hate infidels even more. Would you say it's not hard to see the infidels brought this hate upon themselves?
    , @a reader
    Yet one more incomprehensible mystery: a Roman Catholic cardinal fought tooth and nail to have a Catholic convent removed from Auschwitz.


    (French] Cardinal [Jean-Marie] Lustiger gained recognition after negotiating in 1987 with representatives of the organized Jewish community (including Théo Klein, the former president of the CRIF)[17] the departure of the Carmelite nuns who built a convent in Auschwitz concentration camp (see Auschwitz cross).[2][6]
     
    Jean-Marie Lustiger
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  105. Jack D says:
    @reiner Tor
    If you're familiar with standard holocaust literature, you're aware that the Germans (Heydrich et al) gave explicit orders to encourage locals in areas captured from the Soviets to commit pogroms. This wasn't always successful, and even where it was, usually some prodding by the Germans was needed. At a minimum, the Germans encouraged the participants.

    Encouragement wasn’t always needed, especially in the Ukraine. In Lvov (Lemberg, Lviv, however you want to call it) the Ukrainians were so brutal that the Germans told them to tone it down a little. Poland wasn’t usually that bad, but there were plenty of horrible things – Polish extortionists who would blackmail hidden Jews (and then turn them over to the Germans when they had extorted everything), Poles who would turn in Jews for a reward of a bag of sugar, etc. When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren’t always who you think they are, in either direction.

    Pre-war Poland was not like modern day America where anti-Semites usually feel the need to disguise their views in public – plenty (though by no means all or even most) Poles wore their anti-Semitism openly and proudly, as explicit planks of their right wing political platform. But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government (which, while in some ways anti-Semitic after the death of Pilsudski, was still committed to rule of law) were well able to hold their own until the Germans showed up. But Poland had plenty of native anti-Semites who didn’t need encouragement from the Germans – license alone was quite sufficient.

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    • Replies: @Lex
    As you can see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przytyk_pogrom it wasn't one sided conflict where Polish brutes murdered innocent angelic Jews.

    first incident took place early in the morning of March 9, when Jewish merchants destroyed a stall which belonged to a Polish hat-maker. Police intervened, but on the same day, at 15:00, a member of endecja, Józef Strzałkowski, appeared in front of a stall of a Jewish baker, urging Polish peasants not to buy any products from Jewish merchants. The baker kicked Strzałkowski's crutch, and in return, the Pole hit him in the arm. The baker complained about it to the police, and Strzałkowski was arrested. This provoked anger among the peasants, who surrounded the police station, demanding the release of Strzałkowski. After 20 minutes, the peasants were dispersed, together with members of Jewish youth, which began gathering in the town square.[12]

    At the same time, another riot began at the other side of the market square, on Warszawska Street. Taking advantage of the absence of police at the market while they were occupied defending the police station, a few peasants began to turn over Jewish stalls and beat at least one Jewish merchant. [6] A group of armed Jews, led by Icek Frydman, acted to defend the Jewish merchants from the attacks by the Polish peasants. A number of Poles were severely beaten and injured, including women and children. As police investigation later proved, several members of Jewish community of Przytyk joined the attackers. Marek Jan Chodakiewicz quotes original documents from the court in Radom: "Jews would approach wagons, and [Polish] women there had to cover themselves from rocks and baton hits, meted out by Jews". Furthermore, as Chodakiewicz writes, Jews shot in the backs of the retreating Poles, wounding at least three people.[6] A Polish peasant Stanisław Kubiak was shot in the back by Luzer Kirszencwajg, while Stanisław Popiel was shot in the arm.

    Polish peasants, aware of their numerical superiority, began gathering on the other side of the Radomka river. Near the bridge, another riot began, when Jewish stalls were turned over. Both sides threw rocks at each other, and the police had to divide their forces into two groups. One was busy dispersing the peasants, while another one was trying to restrain the Jews, who kept on throwing rocks. When the police seemed to have settled the situation, a Jewish member of the Mizrachi movement, Szulim Chil Leska, began shooting at Poles from the window of a house. Leska killed a peasant named Stanisław Wieśniak. This infuriated the Polish crowd of some 1,000, which the police were unable to control.[13] Marek Jan Chodakiewicz writes that Leska was not threatened by the peasants, while his victim did not take part in the riots. "Angry, vengeful peasants attacked the Jews. Pleas for mercy did not help (...) Wild, primal instincts were unleashed. The peasants destroyed (but not robbed) Jewish possessions, Jews were beaten, including women and children. Police forces were inadequate to stop the mob, and it took some time for the reinforcements from Radom to come [to Przytyk]"
     
    You used word anti-semitism a lot. I don't see word anti-gentilism or anti-polonism in there. Why?
    , @anonymous

    But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government...
     
    Jews seemed ready, willing and able to assist the Soviets with their invasion of Poland during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920. Might this have had something to do with the attitudes of Polish nationalist pre-WW2?
    , @anonymous

    When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren’t always who you think they are, in either direction.
     
    Didn't the Jews assist the Soviets with their invasion of Poland during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920? Might this have had something to do with the attitudes of Polish nationalist pre-WW2?
    , @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    Huh? Wonder why Ukrainians hate Jews (aka Stalin’s Willing Executioners)?

    It’s a bloody mystery.
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  106. They have that backward. The NYT needs a bit of diversity. Poland happens to be a Polish county (I know, crazy how that happened) and don’t need to open their borders to please a news paper run by mostly one race.

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  107. Bubba says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time..............................PiS was voted in by the losers – old people, rural people and young people who can’t speak English and won’t get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan.
     
    Gosh, imagine that! People whom you casually write-off as "losers" express anti-semitism to your face. I wonder why that might be?

    Amen brother!!!! Great comment!

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  108. Again, this problem can be solved by cuck pope Frannie stating that Islam is a Christian heresy and does not belong in Europe. The next problems to be solved would the blacks/Asians in the Western churches and the West.

    As for the Jews, that problem can easily be solved by collapsing the Zioevangizers in the USA.

    Here is what our rulers want for us: (((Stefan Molyneux))) – his mother was a German Jewess who fled Germany when Hitler took over. Even though he was sent to Christian schools, it is obvious with whom he identifies. You can hear his comments at the 24 and 56 minute marks.

    Western peoples who have Western nations are to give them up, be persecuted and then will be reborn. That’s chutzpah. Of course the Jews and Northeast Asians Molyneux says are superior to Westerners will help in this rebirth.

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    • Replies: @Perspective
    If Stefan Molyneux is Jewish, he has never said so to my knowledge. On some shows he has mentioned that he has an affinity to Germany because is half-German. I thought he gave some insightful advice by advocating that European Gentiles start emulating Jews as opposed to being scornful.
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  109. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @dearieme
    The Poles were unmanly enough to allow themselves to be bullied into converting from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism. No doubt they'll make good moslems eventually.

    Well, no country has historically become Protestant in the first case without bullying from a few rich jerks who wanted to take over monasteries.

    So there. Na-na-na-na-na-na, as they say.

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  110. @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    Look how all of sudden tenure on the land does confer legitimacy. God you are so transparent and wordy.

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  111. Jack D says:
    @Anon 2
    Jack D needs to get acquainted with the Yad Vashem
    memorial to the victims of the Holocaust in western
    Jerusalem. It recognizes a certain number of the Righteous
    Among Nations. No country has contributed more of the
    Righteous than Poland, 6706 to be exact. Germany only
    contributed 601, and Russia a pitiful 204. This is despite
    the fact that, unlike in Western Europe, any help offered
    to protect the Jews was instantly punished with death.
    I wonder how many Jews gave their lives to aid the Polish
    Christians three million of whom perished

    I am very familiar with the Righteous Gentiles of Poland. In general, I am much more personally familiar with the behavior of Poles and Jews and Germans and Ukrainians and Russians during the war than I would prefer to be – if I had my choice it would be something that I read about in a history book rather than hearing directly from my parents and other surviving relatives. I can only repeat what I said before. War brings out both the best and worst in humans. People’s behavior ranged all the way from saintly to indifferent to devilish. Everyone must be judged as an individual and not as a member of a race. The saintly deeds of the righteous do not pardon the deeds of the evil nor vice versa.

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  112. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Steve
    Interesting post and quite ironic. There are a lot of Polish immigrants in the UK and they are not very popular:

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/poland-shocked-xenophobic-abuse-poles-uk-160627105512611.html

    Maybe a surprise to some here but white isnt always white

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    If the Brits had any sense left, they would focus their ire and energy on deporting and excluding Muslims from their country, not complaining about Poles. (yes, I realize that Poles compete against Brits for jobs, hence the infamous "Polish plumber" trope)
    , @nebulafox
    I would hazard a guess that deporting Mirpuri child rapists would be the first priority of a lot of British voters, nonetheless.
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  113. syonredux says:
    @a reader
    How many?

    How many?

    In 1939?

    In 1933, approximately 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe, comprising 1.7% of the total European population. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world’s Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million.

    Eastern Europe

    The majority of Jews in prewar Europe resided in eastern Europe. The largest Jewish communities in this area were in Poland, with about 3,000,000 Jews (9.5%); the European part of the Soviet Union, with 2,525,000 (3.4%); and Romania, with 756,000 (4.2%). The Jewish population in the three Baltic states totaled 255,000: 95,600 in Latvia, 155,000 in Lithuania, and 4,560 in Estonia. Here, Jews comprised 4.9%, 7.6%, and 0.4% of each country’s population, respectively, and 5% of the region’s total population.

    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

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    • Replies: @a reader
    ... and after WWII ?
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  114. Yada yada says:
    @Thea
    Not to mention perhaps 10 million soviet citizens.

    And if the Holocaust total is 20 million, why does only one group of 6 million get to claim it and profit from it?

    Don’t you know, only Jewish lives matter? They’re more important than you. They can murder millions under communism, but we’re not allowed to talk about those lives. Your gentile life just isn’t that important. Only Jews suffer. They are the only people who died EVER since the beginning of time.

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  115. Lex says:
    @Jack D
    Encouragement wasn't always needed, especially in the Ukraine. In Lvov (Lemberg, Lviv, however you want to call it) the Ukrainians were so brutal that the Germans told them to tone it down a little. Poland wasn't usually that bad, but there were plenty of horrible things - Polish extortionists who would blackmail hidden Jews (and then turn them over to the Germans when they had extorted everything), Poles who would turn in Jews for a reward of a bag of sugar, etc. When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren't always who you think they are, in either direction.

    Pre-war Poland was not like modern day America where anti-Semites usually feel the need to disguise their views in public - plenty (though by no means all or even most) Poles wore their anti-Semitism openly and proudly, as explicit planks of their right wing political platform. But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government (which, while in some ways anti-Semitic after the death of Pilsudski, was still committed to rule of law) were well able to hold their own until the Germans showed up. But Poland had plenty of native anti-Semites who didn't need encouragement from the Germans - license alone was quite sufficient.

    As you can see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przytyk_pogrom it wasn’t one sided conflict where Polish brutes murdered innocent angelic Jews.

    first incident took place early in the morning of March 9, when Jewish merchants destroyed a stall which belonged to a Polish hat-maker. Police intervened, but on the same day, at 15:00, a member of endecja, Józef Strzałkowski, appeared in front of a stall of a Jewish baker, urging Polish peasants not to buy any products from Jewish merchants. The baker kicked Strzałkowski’s crutch, and in return, the Pole hit him in the arm. The baker complained about it to the police, and Strzałkowski was arrested. This provoked anger among the peasants, who surrounded the police station, demanding the release of Strzałkowski. After 20 minutes, the peasants were dispersed, together with members of Jewish youth, which began gathering in the town square.[12]

    At the same time, another riot began at the other side of the market square, on Warszawska Street. Taking advantage of the absence of police at the market while they were occupied defending the police station, a few peasants began to turn over Jewish stalls and beat at least one Jewish merchant. [6] A group of armed Jews, led by Icek Frydman, acted to defend the Jewish merchants from the attacks by the Polish peasants. A number of Poles were severely beaten and injured, including women and children. As police investigation later proved, several members of Jewish community of Przytyk joined the attackers. Marek Jan Chodakiewicz quotes original documents from the court in Radom: “Jews would approach wagons, and [Polish] women there had to cover themselves from rocks and baton hits, meted out by Jews”. Furthermore, as Chodakiewicz writes, Jews shot in the backs of the retreating Poles, wounding at least three people.[6] A Polish peasant Stanisław Kubiak was shot in the back by Luzer Kirszencwajg, while Stanisław Popiel was shot in the arm.

    Polish peasants, aware of their numerical superiority, began gathering on the other side of the Radomka river. Near the bridge, another riot began, when Jewish stalls were turned over. Both sides threw rocks at each other, and the police had to divide their forces into two groups. One was busy dispersing the peasants, while another one was trying to restrain the Jews, who kept on throwing rocks. When the police seemed to have settled the situation, a Jewish member of the Mizrachi movement, Szulim Chil Leska, began shooting at Poles from the window of a house. Leska killed a peasant named Stanisław Wieśniak. This infuriated the Polish crowd of some 1,000, which the police were unable to control.[13] Marek Jan Chodakiewicz writes that Leska was not threatened by the peasants, while his victim did not take part in the riots. “Angry, vengeful peasants attacked the Jews. Pleas for mercy did not help (…) Wild, primal instincts were unleashed. The peasants destroyed (but not robbed) Jewish possessions, Jews were beaten, including women and children. Police forces were inadequate to stop the mob, and it took some time for the reinforcements from Radom to come [to Przytyk]“

    You used word anti-semitism a lot. I don’t see word anti-gentilism or anti-polonism in there. Why?

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Funny you should mention Przytyk - my father was from Przytyk and was personally present for the pogrom. In case you haven't noticed, Wikipedia is not written by the gods but by humans who are subject to human biases. The editing of the Przytyk article has been hijacked by Polish nationalist types who give a highly one sided account of the actions of the day. Of course my memory of my father's version is not a historic source that meets Wikipedia standards, but in the memorial book of Przytyk (the survivors of almost every Jewish shtetl in Poland put together a memorial book after the war, in place of the graves that the dead did not have) Frydman (who survived the war and lived in Israel) gives a very different account. I have considered editing the Przytyk article based on Frydman as a source, but frankly I don't have the energy to fight with the nationalist assholes.

    As I alluded to earlier (and this is in part what I was alluding to), before the German elephant showed up, the Polish anti-Semitic minority and the Jews were fairly evenly matched o a physical level. Frydman had been in the Polish army and had some notion of weapons and tactics. The Jewish self-defense had been prepared in advance. The Prytyk pogrom was not some Fiddler on the Roof thing where the mean Russians beat up the helpless Jews - the Jews (including my father) gave as good as they got and he was proud of this.

    But morally, I don't think you can put the Jews and the anti-Semites on the same level. Were the Korean liquor store owners of LA with their rifles on the rooftop of their stores on the same moral level as the looters in the street? The root of the pogrom was the cause of "Polonization" - the idea that the Jews of Poland should be (by force if necessary by louts who would stand in front of your shop and "discourage" Poles from entering) deprived of their livelihood so that they would leave Poland. Przytyk, BTW was 80% Jewish. Polish farmers from the surrounding countryside came there specifically to patronize the Jewish shops and marketplace because Jews were skilled artisans making shoes, clothing, farm implements, etc. that they could not produce on their farms.
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  116. Yada yada says:

    I’m so sick of these nosy, destructive Hebrews. They are like locusts who swarm in and devastate the face of the earth. Do the world a favor and take the next flight to Tel Aviv. Please.

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  117. Jack D says:
    @Beckow
    Overall a good summary, but why this random line:

    Russians showed up and things got even worse
     
    Here are the facts: Germans murdered 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Polish Catholics, 20% of pre-war population was murdered by Germans. They also almost completely destroyed Poland, Germans literally levelled Warsaw to the ground.

    Russians (as part of Soviet Union) expelled about 1 million Poles in 1939-40, many Jews who ended up surviving the war because of that. They also killed around 30-40k right-wing Polish opponents who they saw as their declared enemy. (Lots of that killing was done by Polish Jewish communists, and by Ukrainian nationalists - that area has had a lot of historical scores to settle.)

    Russia also lost half million soldiers liberating Poland from Nazis. Nobody else was going to do it, Poles were slated for extermination by Germans as sub-humans (maybe because they had a hard time telling Jesus from Buddha as Gross points out, or maybe the bathing issue, Germans are fussy).

    So how it 'got worse under Russia'? I am really curious to know what kind of thinking can come to that conclusion. Or is it now a quasi-religious requirement that any idea has to be accompanied by a ritual denunciation of the 'devil', in this case Russia? It undermines your other valid points.

    They certainly got worse for Polish fascists and for many of them it was well deserved that things got worse for them.

    But, it is really not necessary for me to list the evil deeds of Stalin. He was no better in Poland than he was elsewhere. There are volumes filled with his murderous deeds – you are not fooling anyone by pretending otherwise. The Russians took Poland not out of any altruism but because Stalin wanted it for himself. I am not going to defend the Communists any more than I defend the Nazis. A pox on both their houses.

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    • Agree: Perspective
    • Replies: @Beckow
    You are being evasive. It was a specific comparison of Poles regarding Germany and Russia. The numbers (and facts) speak for themselves.

    I would dare to say that even for right-wing Poles (or 'fascists') things were a lot worse under Germans. You try too hard to deny the obvious.
    , @AP

    The Russians took Poland not out of any altruism but because Stalin wanted it for himself.
     
    An appropriate analogy would be - Poland was saved from a sadistic serial killer by a brutal rapist who locked her in his basement for decades. Whose apologists then demand that Poland be grateful for having been saved from death.
    , @polaco
    The "polish fascist" you're talking about, that were viciously persecuted after the war by Russians, were actually people who resisted the Nazis the most, so as new occupants, the Russians assumed correctly that they would resist them as well and focused their attention on those "troublemakers". Calling them fascists you sound like a Russian TV set, they label their perceived enemies Nazis and fascists, just like the left wing terrorists in the West whom Russia supported and lead in the sixties and seventies that now took on a life of their own and even turn against her.
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  118. @AndrewR
    I used to sympathize with the Poles, but I've read a bit about how hostile many Poles are towards the idea of owning up to the atrocities that were committed against ethnic Germans by Poles after the war, and now frankly I don't care what happens to Poland. They want to portray themselves as total victims of the Germans. So I say let them get their wish.

    Poles have a lot of guilt for WWII. But so do other countries. Deal wid it! We are all on the same side now!

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  119. George says:

    Polish King Casimir III the Diversifier invites Jews and gives them rights and protection, without invading anywhere.

    Due to his deep relationship with the legendary Esterka who played a significant role in the King’s life, Casimir was favorably disposed toward Jews living in Poland. On 9 October 1334, he confirmed the privileges granted to Jews in 1264 by Bolesław V the Chaste. Under penalty of death, he prohibited the kidnapping of Jewish children for the purpose of enforced Christian baptism, and he inflicted heavy punishment for the desecration of Jewish cemeteries. While Jews had lived in Poland since before his reign, Casimir allowed them to settle in Poland in great numbers and protected them as people of the king.[2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_III_the_Great#Relationship_with_Polish_Jews

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  120. @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    Let’s provide even more nuance, shall we?

    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    If I could find ONE word to describe Gross it would *be* “ignorant”. He is being widely accused of making up facts, distorting the evidence, using vast generalizations, nation shaming & going with all this bullshit abroad, to the biggest audiences like the NYT, and pretending he is some sort of “historian”.

    He said 1600 people were killed in Jedwabne. Actual toll was 340. And it was German inspired, part of the wider operation. And the Jews were accused of communist sympathies. And it was done by a group of dudes, not the entire town. It’s almost as if *gasp* it’s all complicated.

    The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans

    There was no official collaboration with the Germans. Do you know why? Because Hitler didn’t want to. He knew, based on his past observations, that Poles can’t be trusted, we would find any opportunity to resist. We would only make decent slaves or should be extreminated altogether. The Polish Underground State classified those people as traitors and executed them.

    were not kind to Polish fascists.

    I hope you are being ironic here because it borders on libel.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers.

    Poland was off the map for nearly 150 years and had to fight tooth & nail for its survival. Jews, with their Zionism and above-than-average love for Bolshevism and not-really-that-strong love for Poland were a natural internal enemy for the nationalists, as the nationalists were natural enemy for the Jews & Zionists. We can comfortably dismiss this as tribal warfare & not try to paint one or the other as either oppressor or the victim.

    Ironic enough, Jan Mosdorf, the leader of pre-WWII Radical Nationalists, was executed in Auschwitz for helping the Jews.

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  121. Jack D says:
    @Pat Casey

    Poland actually is a very anti-Semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.
     
    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it's not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)

    The Auschwitz convent controversy was one of the most painful and unedifying of the late twentieth century. In late 1984, a small community of Carmelite nuns, whose stated purpose was to give up their lives in prayerful reparation for what had been done to the Jews, had moved into an abandoned building on the border of the concentration camp---Auschwitz I, as it was known, in distinction from the extermination camp at Birkenau, known as Auschwitz II. Protests from Jewish leaders followed.... By the summer of 1989, the situation had once again reached a boiling point, with frequently strident charges and countercharges. The Carmelites were not inclined to leave; nationalistically inclined Polish Catholics saw the international Jewish protests against the convent as an attack on Catholicism itself; Jewish protests at the convent site triggered counter-protests by local Poles and further exacerbated tensions. On July 14, 1989, seven Jews wearing striped concentration camp uniforms and led by New York Rabbi Avraham Weiss climbed over the convent fence and began banging on the convent's doors and windows, demanding that the nuns abandon the convent. Construction workers making repairs on the second floor of the building dumped water on Weiss and his followers and eventually dragged them away from the site. The police nearby, who had done nothing to stop the demonstrators, did nothing to stop the workers, either, nor did the nuns and a priest who was present. Weiss said that the police had turned their back on Jews "just like your Church did 50 years ago." Two days later, Weiss's group was allowed into the courtyard of the Metropolitan Curia at Francszkanska, in Krakow, where they tacked an appeal to Cardinal Macharski on the door, stating that they had come in peace but saying that "as proud Jews we announce---stop praying for the Jews who were killed in the Shoah, let them rest in peace as Jews." At a later meeting with an archdiocesan official, Weiss's group charged that the Catholic Church sought to "remove the Jewish character of the Shoah and give it a Christian character." Weiss and his group returned to the convent the same day, climbed over the fence again, and staged a six-hour demonstration.... By 1993, despite completion of the new center, the nuns had not yet moved. With new protests mounting and some Jewish groups threatening to boycott the mid-April commemoration of of the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, John Paul II intervened again, with a personal letter to the Carmelites....
     

    John Paul was a pretty smart guy as well as very spiritual so if he thought it was a bad idea then maybe it really was a bad idea? What would you think of say a Buddhist monastery on the Gettysburg battlefield?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    I don't know but I sure wouldn't give a damn about a Buddhist monastery on the Hanoi Hilton?

    Agree about JPII though.
    , @Pat Casey
    As a traditionalist Catholic I think John Paul II had nothing but bad ideas when it came to inter-religious issues. I think he should have called those malicious Jewish accusers the Synagogue of Satan.

    A Buddhist monastery on the Gettysburg battlefield would be strange beyond strange but I would not mind it personally. But if the Gettysburg battlefield was in Cambodia, well that would be as strange as a convent in Poland.

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  122. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    John Paul was a pretty smart guy as well as very spiritual so if he thought it was a bad idea then maybe it really was a bad idea? What would you think of say a Buddhist monastery on the Gettysburg battlefield?

    I don’t know but I sure wouldn’t give a damn about a Buddhist monastery on the Hanoi Hilton?

    Agree about JPII though.

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  123. pyrrhus says:

    “Smart people like Professor Gross of Princeton” make a serious mistake when they write bigoted diatribes for the NYT…..Then the rest of us realize that such “smart people” are only interested in whether it’s “good for the Jews” and only got their positions through ethnocentric nepotism…

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  124. Ironically, the nationalist hero King Sobieski was a staunch ally and protector of Polish Jews, and was a sort of folk hero to Jews across Europe for a century or so after his death.

    Maybe Poland can escape diversification by claiming that Merkel’s refugees are technically German, and we simply can’t have Germans resettle in Poland after having been righteously ethnically cleansed out of East Prussia and Silesia.

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  125. @Jack D
    Gross is not ignorant. Jan T. Gross is the author of “Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland” which is a book about how the Poles of that town took it upon themselves to kill all their Jewish neighbors without waiting for the Nazis to do the job.

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic. It was an explicit part of their ideology. They thought of the Jews in the same way as the rulers of Zimbabwe thought of white farmers. They wanted the Jews out of the country so that they could occupy their economic niche and take their resources (which they viewed as ill gotten gains). However, their program, before the Germans occupied the country, was not genocidal (although it was occasionally violent). There were a few riots or pogroms if you will, but before September of '39, you could count on the fingers of one hand all the Jews who had been killed by Polish nationalists. However, the Jews of Poland, though a minority (10% of the population) were not without their own resources, both political and physical and roughly speaking they were holding their own against the Polish nationalists up until the war.

    My only regret is that the nationalists were not MORE successful before the war so that they could have "persuaded" more Jews, including my parents (not to mention all of my other relatives who didn't make it) to leave before the Germans showed up. But the Jews of Poland were not going to let a bunch of punks chase them out of the place where they had lived for centuries.

    However, when the Germans showed up, they acted not just as a thumb on the scale but an elephant on the scale so that incidents like the massacre of Jedwabne could take place. Nevertheless, most Polish Jews were murdered by the Germans, not by their neighbors. The Poles ranged all the way from active collaboration with the Germans (difficult because the Germans regarded them as sub-human too - they never set up a Polish puppet government as they did in some of the Western countries but rather ruled directly) to indifference to active resistance and hiding of Jews (despite the fact that the Germans imposed the death penalty for the latter). Not all the Poles were like the villagers of Jedwabne, nor were all the Poles like the Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel - they were all over the place so it's impossible to generalize.

    For the Polish nationalists, the extermination of the Jews was the realization of their fondest dreams in nightmare form. It was like one of those fairy tales where you ask the genie to do something for you and he takes you too literally. The Germans told the Poles, "the good news is that we got rid of the Jews, the bad news is that you're next." Then the Russians showed up and things got even worse, especially for the Polish right. After the war the Polish Communists installed by the Soviets (many of whom were themselves of Jewish origin) were not kind to Polish fascists.

    This is, as Gross knows as well as anyone, the sad and tragic history of Poland. But today's Polish right has very little to do with the old Polish right - the war and the 50 year period of Communist rule created an almost total break with the past. Today's Polish rightists are not focused on Poland's almost non-existent remaining Jewish community but on the threat of Muslim invasion. They maybe express a little too much admiration for the historic Polish right but I can understand their desire to re-root themselves in Polish history after having been so cut off.

    I think Jack D is largely correct in his balanced assessment. There is one important point that he omits from his account of Jedwabne, however. At least, as I understand it.

    In September 1939, Poland was invaded from both sides—by the Germans from the West and shortly thereafter by the Russians from the East. Poland was divided as planned in the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Jedwabne was in the Russian zone of occupation.

    Two years later in June 1941, Nazi Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union, by way, first, of Soviet-occupied Poland.

    Jedwabne had been under Soviet communist control for two years, therefore, and the population had been subject to the usual communist treatment. Various kinds of persecutions of Polish Catholics, on the one hand. Rising social positions for Jedwabne’s Polish Jews, on the other. Jedwabne’s Jews were seen as collaborators with the communists.

    It was in 1941 that the horrific destruction of the Jews of Jedwabne took place. Not in 1939. I think this is important for any assessment of the meaning of that event.

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  126. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon 2
    Poland is perfectly happy accepting immigrants and guest workers
    who are fellow Christians. At this point Poland is hosting at least
    1.5 million guest workers and students (out of the population
    of 38.5 million) primarily from Ukraine, but also growing numbers
    from Belarus, Russia, and Slovakia. Students from western Ukraine
    are now more likely to study in Poland than in Russia.
    Warsaw, like Paris or New York, is increasingly attracting beautiful
    women from the whole region, not just Ukraine, leading to a growing
    number of marriages between Polish men and beautiful girls from
    Central and Eastern Europe.

    The labor shortage caused by Poland's dynamic economy (and 2-3
    million who left for Britain, etc) is also beginning to attract legal
    immigrants from the high-unemployment countries such as Spain,
    Portugal, and Italy. Poland has become one big construction site.
    They cannot build skyscrapers in Warsaw fast enough. A major
    airport will be built between Warsaw and Lodz. Probably
    another large LNG terminal. Poland has the ambition of becoming
    an ultramodern country, and this requires a lot of extra hands

    Britain would be in a far better state if it ‘lost’ at least half a million eastern Europeans.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Here in America, many of us would gladly trade a half million of our Mexican or Muslim immigrants for those terrible Slavs.
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  127. Jack D says:
    @Lex
    As you can see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przytyk_pogrom it wasn't one sided conflict where Polish brutes murdered innocent angelic Jews.

    first incident took place early in the morning of March 9, when Jewish merchants destroyed a stall which belonged to a Polish hat-maker. Police intervened, but on the same day, at 15:00, a member of endecja, Józef Strzałkowski, appeared in front of a stall of a Jewish baker, urging Polish peasants not to buy any products from Jewish merchants. The baker kicked Strzałkowski's crutch, and in return, the Pole hit him in the arm. The baker complained about it to the police, and Strzałkowski was arrested. This provoked anger among the peasants, who surrounded the police station, demanding the release of Strzałkowski. After 20 minutes, the peasants were dispersed, together with members of Jewish youth, which began gathering in the town square.[12]

    At the same time, another riot began at the other side of the market square, on Warszawska Street. Taking advantage of the absence of police at the market while they were occupied defending the police station, a few peasants began to turn over Jewish stalls and beat at least one Jewish merchant. [6] A group of armed Jews, led by Icek Frydman, acted to defend the Jewish merchants from the attacks by the Polish peasants. A number of Poles were severely beaten and injured, including women and children. As police investigation later proved, several members of Jewish community of Przytyk joined the attackers. Marek Jan Chodakiewicz quotes original documents from the court in Radom: "Jews would approach wagons, and [Polish] women there had to cover themselves from rocks and baton hits, meted out by Jews". Furthermore, as Chodakiewicz writes, Jews shot in the backs of the retreating Poles, wounding at least three people.[6] A Polish peasant Stanisław Kubiak was shot in the back by Luzer Kirszencwajg, while Stanisław Popiel was shot in the arm.

    Polish peasants, aware of their numerical superiority, began gathering on the other side of the Radomka river. Near the bridge, another riot began, when Jewish stalls were turned over. Both sides threw rocks at each other, and the police had to divide their forces into two groups. One was busy dispersing the peasants, while another one was trying to restrain the Jews, who kept on throwing rocks. When the police seemed to have settled the situation, a Jewish member of the Mizrachi movement, Szulim Chil Leska, began shooting at Poles from the window of a house. Leska killed a peasant named Stanisław Wieśniak. This infuriated the Polish crowd of some 1,000, which the police were unable to control.[13] Marek Jan Chodakiewicz writes that Leska was not threatened by the peasants, while his victim did not take part in the riots. "Angry, vengeful peasants attacked the Jews. Pleas for mercy did not help (...) Wild, primal instincts were unleashed. The peasants destroyed (but not robbed) Jewish possessions, Jews were beaten, including women and children. Police forces were inadequate to stop the mob, and it took some time for the reinforcements from Radom to come [to Przytyk]"
     
    You used word anti-semitism a lot. I don't see word anti-gentilism or anti-polonism in there. Why?

    Funny you should mention Przytyk – my father was from Przytyk and was personally present for the pogrom. In case you haven’t noticed, Wikipedia is not written by the gods but by humans who are subject to human biases. The editing of the Przytyk article has been hijacked by Polish nationalist types who give a highly one sided account of the actions of the day. Of course my memory of my father’s version is not a historic source that meets Wikipedia standards, but in the memorial book of Przytyk (the survivors of almost every Jewish shtetl in Poland put together a memorial book after the war, in place of the graves that the dead did not have) Frydman (who survived the war and lived in Israel) gives a very different account. I have considered editing the Przytyk article based on Frydman as a source, but frankly I don’t have the energy to fight with the nationalist assholes.

    As I alluded to earlier (and this is in part what I was alluding to), before the German elephant showed up, the Polish anti-Semitic minority and the Jews were fairly evenly matched o a physical level. Frydman had been in the Polish army and had some notion of weapons and tactics. The Jewish self-defense had been prepared in advance. The Prytyk pogrom was not some Fiddler on the Roof thing where the mean Russians beat up the helpless Jews – the Jews (including my father) gave as good as they got and he was proud of this.

    But morally, I don’t think you can put the Jews and the anti-Semites on the same level. Were the Korean liquor store owners of LA with their rifles on the rooftop of their stores on the same moral level as the looters in the street? The root of the pogrom was the cause of “Polonization” – the idea that the Jews of Poland should be (by force if necessary by louts who would stand in front of your shop and “discourage” Poles from entering) deprived of their livelihood so that they would leave Poland. Przytyk, BTW was 80% Jewish. Polish farmers from the surrounding countryside came there specifically to patronize the Jewish shops and marketplace because Jews were skilled artisans making shoes, clothing, farm implements, etc. that they could not produce on their farms.

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    The editing of the Przytyk article has been hijacked by Polish nationalist types who give a highly one sided account of the actions of the day.
     
    As opposed no doubt to Jewish nationalist types who give a perfectly fair and balanced account.

    Out of curiosity, how many descendants did victims of this pogrom leave? Is there some sort of organization you guys can start or join to give a meticulously researched account of your side of things (it seems like you've already got a good start on this)?
    , @jane claire
    An interesting book I read once, I think it was called Vilna.
    Anyway, stories are told and retold and if your dad was a communist/socialist then the Poles did it. The point is there are a millions of reasons and stories of what happened, one for each. People say why do people fight in a war and then they argue over the reasons, but the facts are that each has his reason. The religious man will be prompted for or by his religion. the nationalist for his nation and people, the oligarch will start the war for power, the businessman will pick a side to sell products and wealth, the mother and father who tries to protect there children, the child born into revenge. There are lots of reasons that things happen the way they do and there are reasons why God set the world originally the way it was, but of course some people really just don't believe in that stuff.


    P.S
    I'm almost positive the Holocaust happened while the Jews were down south in America saving the blacks from slavery. You know once I mentioned to my daughter that white people helped blacks escape slavery and she was shocked and said "they did?"

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  128. syonredux says:
    @CK
    So many places in Europe developed bad cases of anti-Semitism. S0 few places in Africa or the Far East have.
    England expelled them in 1290. France even earlier.
    Jesus Christ was a heretic, his religions Eastern Orthodox Christianity and later Roman Catholicism and still later all the Protestant spin offs were all heretical sects and their believers apostates. Maybe what is perceived as anti-Semitism is more accurately described as a response to anti-gentilism.

    So many places in Europe developed bad cases of anti-Semitism. S0 few places in Africa or the Far East have.

    Dunno:

    The Almohads had taken control of the Almoravid Maghribi and Andalusian territories by 1147.[20] The Almohads rejected the mainstream Islamic doctrine that established the status of “dhimmi”, a non-Muslim resident of a Muslim country who was allowed to practice his religion on condition of submission to Muslim rule and payment of jizya.[21]
    The treatment of Jews under Almohad rule was a drastic change. During the Caliphate of Córdoba Jewish culture experienced a Golden Age. María Rosa Menocal, a specialist in Iberian literature at Yale University, has argued that “tolerance was an inherent aspect of Andalusian society”, and that the Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, while allowed fewer rights than Muslims, were still better off than in Christian Europe.[22] Many Jews migrated to al-Andalus, where they were not just tolerated, but allowed to practice their faith openly.
    Christians also practiced their religion openly in Córdoba, and both Jews and Christians lived openly in Morocco as well.
    The first Almohad leader, Abd al-Mumin, allowed an initial 7-month grace period.[23] Then he forced most of the urban dhimmi population in Morocco, both Jewish and Christian, to convert to Islam.[21]
    Those who converted had to wear identifying clothing, as they weren’t regarded as sincere Muslims.[21] Cases of mass martyrdom of Jews who refused to convert to Islam are recorded.[23]

    Many of the conversions were superficial. Maimonides urged Jews to choose the superficial conversion over martyrdom, arguing that “Muslims know very well that we do not mean what we say, and that what we say is only to escape the ruler’s punishment and to satisfy him with this simple confession.”[21] Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089–1164), who himself fled the persecutions of the Almohads, composed an elegy mourning the destruction of many Jewish communities throughout Spain and the Maghreb under the Almohads.[24] Many Jews fled from territories ruled by the Almohads to Christian lands, and others, like the family of Maimonides, fled east to more tolerant Muslim lands.[25

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawza_Exile

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  129. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Funny you should mention Przytyk - my father was from Przytyk and was personally present for the pogrom. In case you haven't noticed, Wikipedia is not written by the gods but by humans who are subject to human biases. The editing of the Przytyk article has been hijacked by Polish nationalist types who give a highly one sided account of the actions of the day. Of course my memory of my father's version is not a historic source that meets Wikipedia standards, but in the memorial book of Przytyk (the survivors of almost every Jewish shtetl in Poland put together a memorial book after the war, in place of the graves that the dead did not have) Frydman (who survived the war and lived in Israel) gives a very different account. I have considered editing the Przytyk article based on Frydman as a source, but frankly I don't have the energy to fight with the nationalist assholes.

    As I alluded to earlier (and this is in part what I was alluding to), before the German elephant showed up, the Polish anti-Semitic minority and the Jews were fairly evenly matched o a physical level. Frydman had been in the Polish army and had some notion of weapons and tactics. The Jewish self-defense had been prepared in advance. The Prytyk pogrom was not some Fiddler on the Roof thing where the mean Russians beat up the helpless Jews - the Jews (including my father) gave as good as they got and he was proud of this.

    But morally, I don't think you can put the Jews and the anti-Semites on the same level. Were the Korean liquor store owners of LA with their rifles on the rooftop of their stores on the same moral level as the looters in the street? The root of the pogrom was the cause of "Polonization" - the idea that the Jews of Poland should be (by force if necessary by louts who would stand in front of your shop and "discourage" Poles from entering) deprived of their livelihood so that they would leave Poland. Przytyk, BTW was 80% Jewish. Polish farmers from the surrounding countryside came there specifically to patronize the Jewish shops and marketplace because Jews were skilled artisans making shoes, clothing, farm implements, etc. that they could not produce on their farms.

    The editing of the Przytyk article has been hijacked by Polish nationalist types who give a highly one sided account of the actions of the day.

    As opposed no doubt to Jewish nationalist types who give a perfectly fair and balanced account.

    Out of curiosity, how many descendants did victims of this pogrom leave? Is there some sort of organization you guys can start or join to give a meticulously researched account of your side of things (it seems like you’ve already got a good start on this)?

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  130. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Encouragement wasn't always needed, especially in the Ukraine. In Lvov (Lemberg, Lviv, however you want to call it) the Ukrainians were so brutal that the Germans told them to tone it down a little. Poland wasn't usually that bad, but there were plenty of horrible things - Polish extortionists who would blackmail hidden Jews (and then turn them over to the Germans when they had extorted everything), Poles who would turn in Jews for a reward of a bag of sugar, etc. When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren't always who you think they are, in either direction.

    Pre-war Poland was not like modern day America where anti-Semites usually feel the need to disguise their views in public - plenty (though by no means all or even most) Poles wore their anti-Semitism openly and proudly, as explicit planks of their right wing political platform. But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government (which, while in some ways anti-Semitic after the death of Pilsudski, was still committed to rule of law) were well able to hold their own until the Germans showed up. But Poland had plenty of native anti-Semites who didn't need encouragement from the Germans - license alone was quite sufficient.

    But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government…

    Jews seemed ready, willing and able to assist the Soviets with their invasion of Poland during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920. Might this have had something to do with the attitudes of Polish nationalist pre-WW2?

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  131. a reader says:

    Różański became active in the Communist Party of Poland before World War II. He joined the NKVD following the Soviet invasion of Poland and after the war, served as an interrogator with the Polish Communist security apparatus .

    Różański was personally involved in torturing and maiming dozens of opponents of the Polish People’s Republic, including anti-communist activists.

    Różański personally administered torture to Witold Pilecki, one of the most famous “Cursed soldiers” and the only individual who willingly went to Auschwitz Camp.

    Józef Różański

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  132. polskijoe says:

    NYTimes can go f itself.

    There is no standard of what an antisemite is.
    Anyone can be accused of antisemitism.

    Poland never killed millions of Jews. Like dozens and dozens of other countries they were kicked out from some of the Jews werent compatable.

    What is interesting its the Jews in USA
    still barking about Holocaust, blaming Poles, trying to make an industry,
    accusing everyone of being “neonazi” “fascist”.

    Why dont these Liberal Jews particularly in USA go live in Israel?
    They are blaming everyone but themselves.

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  133. @Anonymous
    That was the second time the Ottomans reached Vienna, the first being in 1529 under Suleiman the Magnificent. On both occasions they were stymied.

    Are you sad or happy Turkish Muslims were stymied in their jihad on Vienna?

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  134. Wilkey says:

    I’d bet that Poland could benefit from some diversity, but the all but unmentionable truth is that the diversity that would actually benefit Poland is mostly other Europeans.

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  135. Beckow says:
    @Jack D
    They certainly got worse for Polish fascists and for many of them it was well deserved that things got worse for them.

    But, it is really not necessary for me to list the evil deeds of Stalin. He was no better in Poland than he was elsewhere. There are volumes filled with his murderous deeds - you are not fooling anyone by pretending otherwise. The Russians took Poland not out of any altruism but because Stalin wanted it for himself. I am not going to defend the Communists any more than I defend the Nazis. A pox on both their houses.

    You are being evasive. It was a specific comparison of Poles regarding Germany and Russia. The numbers (and facts) speak for themselves.

    I would dare to say that even for right-wing Poles (or ‘fascists’) things were a lot worse under Germans. You try too hard to deny the obvious.

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  136. El Dato says:
    @Anonymous
    Any reason why Poland should avoid this?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41961801


    More than 20 police officers were injured in Brussels when celebrations over Morocco's qualification for football's World Cup turned violent.
     

    Actually the Moroccan immigration wave stems from th 80s I think.

    Poland was also responsible for heroically stopping the Red Army’s march to Berlin before Warsaw in 1920. Maybe they cannot be forgiven for that.

    (Incidentally, a lot of often nasty cleaning of the jewish population was performed by both sides during those times – bolshy collaborators to the Poles, capitalist exploiters to the Reds, you can’t win! And this after 4 years of suffering under roaming armies during WWI)

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  137. a reader says:

    Helena Wolińska-Brus (28 February 1919 – 26 November 2008) was a military prosecutor in postwar Poland with the rank of lieutenant-colonel (podpułkownik), involved in Stalinist regime show trials of the 1950s. She has been implicated in the arrest and execution of many Polish anti-Nazi resistance fighters including key figures in Poland’s wartime Home Army.

    The first of three applications for Wolińska-Brus’ extradition to Poland was made in 1999. The Polish indictments were based the claim that Wolińska-Brus had fabricated evidence which led to the execution of general Emil Fieldorf and the wrongful arrest and imprisonment of 24 other anti-Nazi resistance fighters.[6] Both requests were refused by the Home Office; in particular, because of her advanced age and the long period of time that had elapsed since the alleged crimes occurred.

    Helena Wolińska-Brus

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  138. snorlax says:
    @AndrewR
    I used to sympathize with the Poles, but I've read a bit about how hostile many Poles are towards the idea of owning up to the atrocities that were committed against ethnic Germans by Poles after the war, and now frankly I don't care what happens to Poland. They want to portray themselves as total victims of the Germans. So I say let them get their wish.

    The expulsion of Germans from E. Europe after WWII was a horrible crime,[1] but I can hardly blame the Poles[2] for not feeling particularly sorry about it after the far worse things the Nazis and Communists[3] did to them.

    The Germans (and not just in the Nazi period) really behaved in a despicable way towards the people who had literally saved German civilization twice (from the Mongols and then the Turks, and arguably also from the advancing Red Army at the end of WWI).

    [1] But, like African slavery, one that largely left the victimized populations much better off than if they had remained in place.
    [2] Or even the Czechs, who were arguably mistreating their German minority prior to the war, and whom, speaking relatively, the German occupiers treated much “better” than the Poles, both actually and in their future plans (deindustrialization and forced Germanization for the Czechs, extermination for the bulk of the “subhuman” Poles, with the most “Aryan”-looking saved for sexual or menial enslavement).
    [3] Germany’s fault for partitioning Poland with Stalin, then starting and losing their war with him.

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    • Replies: @Lex
    It was also decided by Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill.
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  139. Tiny Duck says:

    The only way we can combat racism is by not allowing white Christians to retain institutional power. Poland is a majority white country and needs to allow immigrants in so that there is not yet another place where whites can run to so they can breed other white kids and hog all the good social capital

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  140. a reader says:

    Along with several other high functionaries including Dir. Anatol Fejgin, Col. Józef Różański, Dir. Julia Brystiger and the chief supervisor of Polish State Security Services, Minister Jakub Berman from the Politburo, Roman Romkowski came to symbolize communist terror in postwar Poland.

    At trial, Col. Różański didn’t deny that he routinely tortured prisoners including Polish United Workers’ Party members, and he didn’t apologize for his actions. Instead, he pointed a finger at Romkowski and continuously repeated the Leninist argument of justification of any means to an end. For him, torturing people was a daily double-shift job, nothing more, nothing less. He admitted that all charges against his victims were falsified on site by his department.

    Roman Romkowski

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  141. El Dato says:

    Interestingly, I can’t remember the NYT writing this about Ukraine (which is clearly even more nationalist than Poland) as the Freedoms arrived.

    Is Ukrainian Nationalism Good For the Jews?

    I only remember

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-russian-jewish-leader-says-ukraine-oligarch-should-be-hanged/

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  142. Daniel H says:

    Small irony: Poland is home to the longest living Muslim community in Northern Europe, the Liptka Tatars. Muslims have been living in Poland much longer than in German, Sweden, Netherlands, England, USA, etc. The Liptka Tatars have resided in Poland, Lithuania and Belarus since the 14th century. Allowed to enter by the king, escaping the depredations of Tamerlane. The Liptka Tatars are Poles first, Muslims second and have always been noted for their patriotism and devotion to the Polish nation and people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars

    Another interesting factoid. The oldest extant mosque in the United States is a Polish Liptka Tatar Mosque located in hipster Williamsburg, New York City. The mosque has been there since the 1930s.

    https://www.baltictimes.com/how_america___s_oldest_mosque_was_built_by_muslims_from_the_baltic/

    Now it is true that there are very few Liptka Tatars left in Poland (there are more in Belarus, which is quasi Poland). Most have converted to Catholicism over the centuries, but they are still there, practicing their religion unmolested. It’s not Islam per se that is the problem with Islamic migration, it’s the NUMBERS. Poland has absorbed and can absorb a small number of Muslims, but they know damn well what will happen if they are allowed entry in massive numbers. Give credit to people’s grasp of historical memory.

    BTW, two famous Americans of Liptka Tatar descent: Charles Bronson and the lovely Martha Stewart.

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  143. a reader says:

    Anatol Fejgin (Warsaw, September 25, 1909 – July 28, 2002 also in Warsaw) was a Polish-Jewish communist before World War II, and after 1949, commander of the Stalinist political police at the Ministry of Public Security of Poland,[1] in charge of its notorious Special Bureau (the 10th Department).[2] During the Polish October revolution of 1956, his name – along with a number of others including his colleague Col. Józef Różański (born Josek Goldberg), and Minister Jakub Berman – came to symbolize communist terror in postwar Poland.

    Anatol Fejgin

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  144. @Pat Casey

    Poland actually is a very anti-Semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.
     
    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it's not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)

    The Auschwitz convent controversy was one of the most painful and unedifying of the late twentieth century. In late 1984, a small community of Carmelite nuns, whose stated purpose was to give up their lives in prayerful reparation for what had been done to the Jews, had moved into an abandoned building on the border of the concentration camp---Auschwitz I, as it was known, in distinction from the extermination camp at Birkenau, known as Auschwitz II. Protests from Jewish leaders followed.... By the summer of 1989, the situation had once again reached a boiling point, with frequently strident charges and countercharges. The Carmelites were not inclined to leave; nationalistically inclined Polish Catholics saw the international Jewish protests against the convent as an attack on Catholicism itself; Jewish protests at the convent site triggered counter-protests by local Poles and further exacerbated tensions. On July 14, 1989, seven Jews wearing striped concentration camp uniforms and led by New York Rabbi Avraham Weiss climbed over the convent fence and began banging on the convent's doors and windows, demanding that the nuns abandon the convent. Construction workers making repairs on the second floor of the building dumped water on Weiss and his followers and eventually dragged them away from the site. The police nearby, who had done nothing to stop the demonstrators, did nothing to stop the workers, either, nor did the nuns and a priest who was present. Weiss said that the police had turned their back on Jews "just like your Church did 50 years ago." Two days later, Weiss's group was allowed into the courtyard of the Metropolitan Curia at Francszkanska, in Krakow, where they tacked an appeal to Cardinal Macharski on the door, stating that they had come in peace but saying that "as proud Jews we announce---stop praying for the Jews who were killed in the Shoah, let them rest in peace as Jews." At a later meeting with an archdiocesan official, Weiss's group charged that the Catholic Church sought to "remove the Jewish character of the Shoah and give it a Christian character." Weiss and his group returned to the convent the same day, climbed over the fence again, and staged a six-hour demonstration.... By 1993, despite completion of the new center, the nuns had not yet moved. With new protests mounting and some Jewish groups threatening to boycott the mid-April commemoration of of the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, John Paul II intervened again, with a personal letter to the Carmelites....
     

    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it’s not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)

    Imagine if Muslims built a mosque on the borders of the World Trade Center, promising to pray for all the dead infidels on 9/11. Except 6m infidels died on 9/11. Imagine if the Muslim reaction was to hate infidels even more. Would you say it’s not hard to see the infidels brought this hate upon themselves?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Imagine if Hitler was a wacko atheist instead of an orthodox Catholic.

    Oh wait, he was.
    , @Pat Casey
    First of all a mosque is not the equivalent of a convent. If there was a dilapidated abandoned building near the WTC site and a small group of Muslim women were living there as nuns as a form of reparation, I would not be offended by that at all. I would say they are friends of America. But that's still an imperfect analogy, because the Holocaust was not the outcome of Catholic doctrine. You addled idiot.
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  145. Lex says:
    @snorlax
    The expulsion of Germans from E. Europe after WWII was a horrible crime,[1] but I can hardly blame the Poles[2] for not feeling particularly sorry about it after the far worse things the Nazis and Communists[3] did to them.

    The Germans (and not just in the Nazi period) really behaved in a despicable way towards the people who had literally saved German civilization twice (from the Mongols and then the Turks, and arguably also from the advancing Red Army at the end of WWI).

    [1] But, like African slavery, one that largely left the victimized populations much better off than if they had remained in place.
    [2] Or even the Czechs, who were arguably mistreating their German minority prior to the war, and whom, speaking relatively, the German occupiers treated much "better" than the Poles, both actually and in their future plans (deindustrialization and forced Germanization for the Czechs, extermination for the bulk of the "subhuman" Poles, with the most "Aryan"-looking saved for sexual or menial enslavement).
    [3] Germany's fault for partitioning Poland with Stalin, then starting and losing their war with him.

    It was also decided by Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill.

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  146. snorlax says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time..............................PiS was voted in by the losers – old people, rural people and young people who can’t speak English and won’t get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan.
     
    Gosh, imagine that! People whom you casually write-off as "losers" express anti-semitism to your face. I wonder why that might be?

    Peter’s not Jewish, he’s Azeri or Central Asian judging by his surname (and his frequently-stated pro-Iran views), so presumably a Shia Muslim (possibly from a secular or Christian-convert family judging by his given name).

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  147. a reader says:

    Jakub Berman (26 December 1901 – 10 April 1984) was a prominent communist in prewar Poland. Toward the end of World War II he joined the Politburo of the Polish United Workers’ Party. Between 1944 and 1953, he was considered Joseph Stalin’s right hand in the People’s Republic of Poland – in charge of the Ministry of Public Security – the largest secret police in Polish history and one of its most repressive institutions.

    Jakub Berman

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  148. a reader says:

    Julia Brystiger (née Prajs, born November 25, 1902, in Stryj – died November 9, 1975, in Warsaw) was a Polish Communist activist and member of the security apparatus in Stalinist Poland.[1] She was also known as Julia Bristiger, Brystygierowa, and by her nicknames – given by the victims of torture: Luna, Bloody Luna, Daria, Ksenia, and Maria. The nickname Bloody Luna was a direct reference of her Gestapo-like methods during interrogations.

    Julia Brystiger

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  149. Cyrano says:

    Catholicism and Islam are actually very compatible. Both religions supposedly preach a belief in God, but what they actually preach is a belief in their religion. Those are 2 different things.

    Believing in God makes you a good person, someone who appreciates all the God’s creations. Believing in your particular brand of religion, on the other hand, makes you an a**hole. Probably even worse than that, makes you a homicidal maniac, because a member of any religion other than your own is a “Godless” individual that deserves to die.

    Catholics put this to practice in South America, where the ignorance of a Christian God was enough evidence for the Catholics that those people that they found over there – are savages who don’t deserve to live. Islam is pretty much the same – it’s not about belief in God, it’s about a belief in the superiority of their religion. Anybody who doesn’t belong to their religion – all bets are off.

    Polaks have similar attitude towards religion, they don’t necessarily believe in God as much as they believe in Catholicism. Big distinction. So I don’t see a reason why these 2 religions similar in attitudes couldn’t find a way for better understanding and coexisting with each other.

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    • Replies: @Anon

    Believing in your particular brand of religion, on the other hand, makes you an a**hole.
     
    Would that make you Exhibit #1?
    , @RadicalCenter
    Compare the New Testament to the koran and it shouldn't be hard to answer your own rather question.

    If your hatred of catholics or the RC Church is strong enough to make you try to conflate Catholicism with islam, you should step back and consider that is rational or healthy.

    And I say that as someone who has left the RC Church.

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  150. Tiny Duck says:

    You people support pedophiles like Roy Moore and that is one of the many reasons you will lose badly in the future.

    Just complete moral bankruptcy

    Leonard Pitts has great commentary on this

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    “Leonard Pitts has great commentary on this”

    Paging Fish......
    , @Mr. Anon

    Leonard Pitts has great commentary on this
     
    Undoubtedly better than yours, that's for sure.
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  151. a reader says:

    Śmietański was stationed at the Mokotów Prison. From World War II until the collapse of the Eastern Bloc in 1989, Mokotów Prison – where Śmietański conducted his deeds – was a place of detention, torture and execution of the Polish anti-communist opposition.

    Śmietański – nicknamed by the inmates as the “Butcher of the Mokotow Prison” – executed personally and supervised the executions of hundreds of opponents of the Stalinist regime in PRL.

    Piotr Śmietański

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  152. Daniel H says:
    @AndrewR
    I used to sympathize with the Poles, but I've read a bit about how hostile many Poles are towards the idea of owning up to the atrocities that were committed against ethnic Germans by Poles after the war, and now frankly I don't care what happens to Poland. They want to portray themselves as total victims of the Germans. So I say let them get their wish.

    What hostility? The historical facts are there. Do you expect Poland to apologize for seizing these lands?
    Dream on. Germany started the war. Germany had evil intentions for all the unfortunate peoples conquered by their army. So Poland expelled all Germans from East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia. These had been contested lands and Poland was determined to make sure they would never be contested again.

    The Germans brought this upon themselves. The Poles never harassed German minorities in Danzig, had no intention to do so and had zero interest in making claims on Silesia, Pomerania or East Prussia. If you ask me, considering the atrocities perpetrated by the Germans on the Polish nation, and the plans they had for reducing Poles to be slaves of Germany, the Germans expelled from the German lands got off easy. They were allowed to leave with just the clothes on their backs and whatever they could carry. That is far more privilege than the Germans ever gave the victims of their cruelty.

    Same goes for the Czechs expelling the Germans from the Sudetenland. Again, Germany got off easy for the crimes she committed. But that’s the past, and I hold no grudge against today’s or tomorrow’s Germany for wars/crimes committed in the past. The current generation of Germans bear no responsibility for what their grandfathers / great-grandfathers did.

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  153. @Beckow
    Overall a good summary, but why this random line:

    Russians showed up and things got even worse
     
    Here are the facts: Germans murdered 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Polish Catholics, 20% of pre-war population was murdered by Germans. They also almost completely destroyed Poland, Germans literally levelled Warsaw to the ground.

    Russians (as part of Soviet Union) expelled about 1 million Poles in 1939-40, many Jews who ended up surviving the war because of that. They also killed around 30-40k right-wing Polish opponents who they saw as their declared enemy. (Lots of that killing was done by Polish Jewish communists, and by Ukrainian nationalists - that area has had a lot of historical scores to settle.)

    Russia also lost half million soldiers liberating Poland from Nazis. Nobody else was going to do it, Poles were slated for extermination by Germans as sub-humans (maybe because they had a hard time telling Jesus from Buddha as Gross points out, or maybe the bathing issue, Germans are fussy).

    So how it 'got worse under Russia'? I am really curious to know what kind of thinking can come to that conclusion. Or is it now a quasi-religious requirement that any idea has to be accompanied by a ritual denunciation of the 'devil', in this case Russia? It undermines your other valid points.

    Poles were slated for extermination by Germans as sub-humans

    Is there any source for this? People make claims like this regarding what the Nazis would have done had they won the war but there never seems to be any provided evidence or context.

    I understand Isteve commentators loath to be associated with all the National Socialists on the alt-right, but they seem to be conspicuously devoid of having skepticism of the victor’s narrative of WW2. You guys are people who generally show skepticism of all the other narratives from both present day (muslims/immigration is great!) to history (civil rights movement was all black run and great for the nation!), but when someone claims Hitler planned to to X/Y/Z to some population of over 20+ million people, no one seems to raise an eyebrow.

    I’m not saying you all need to put on the swastika patch, but the Nazi Demon narrative is pretty integral in how they keep the alt-right suppressed. The standard narrative is that the second you start accepting racial differences as a White European you open the door to thinking of others as “sub-human,” and you’ll have no qualms about putting people in death camps. Much as we make fun of leftists for lazily calling people “nazis” to end a conversation, there’s a reason they still do it because it still holds a certain amount of effectiveness.

    And before you call me a you-know-what, I like to make it clear that I’m glad Hitler shot himself in his bunker, and glad the Anglos were able to reach western Germany before it was too late. The National Socialists really do represent the upper limits of human brutality. (emphasis on the HUMAN, not the White Male authoritarian personality disorder BS).

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    • Replies: @Beckow

    "Is there any source for this?"
     
    I share your skepticism, I also tend to err on the skeptic side. I dislike the ritualised self-debasement that European Christian societies have descended to, with Germans the absolute extreme. You are right that a lot of what we hear is 'victor history'. And the stories get exaggerated and over-simplified.

    But there was (unfortunately) a documented plan by Germany to slowly exterminate a number of eastern European nations, Poles among them as the primary victims. You can start with Mein Kampf where the 'lebensraum' (living space for more Germans) is described in detail. What followed were a number of implementation plans starting in 1939: Poles were moved out of certain areas, German colonists were moved in (e.g. Auschwitz was a 'happy' German town with thousands of new German colonists from the West), educated classes were eliminated (mostly shot), higher education above elementary school for Poles was forbidden. There are documents that were presented in Norimberg based on German Plan Ost that talked about 1/3 Poles moved to the east, 1/3 forcefully assimilated (the better looking ones?), 1/3 exterminated. Some of them were fantastic, but both the intention and the initial execution can easily be documented.

    This was real and 3 million Polish Catholics were murdered by Germans. (250,000 Czechs were also murdered). This was nothing like in the Western Europe, Germans saw the local population as redundant sub-humans and they acted on that belief. There was never even an attempt to have some sort of a local Polish self-government, it was a brutal, military occupation from day one until the end of war when Red Army defeated them.

    The WWII Nazism was anti-white people, anti-Christian people - if those people were not Germanic or Latin (Anglos were always fine with Hitler). That's why it failed - you cannot take on 200 million eastern Europeans. My suggestion to the West, liberal, nationalist, or whatever, is not to try it again.

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  154. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Johann Ricke

    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it’s not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)
     
    Imagine if Muslims built a mosque on the borders of the World Trade Center, promising to pray for all the dead infidels on 9/11. Except 6m infidels died on 9/11. Imagine if the Muslim reaction was to hate infidels even more. Would you say it's not hard to see the infidels brought this hate upon themselves?

    Imagine if Hitler was a wacko atheist instead of an orthodox Catholic.

    Oh wait, he was.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Some reason this (#144) was held up?

    It's not a great insight or anything, but I don't think it's that bad.

    RB
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  155. snorlax says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.
     
    Actually that's total bullshit.

    No, he’s right. There’s more open antisemitism in Poland than you’ll find almost anywhere else outside of the Muslim world. But it’s nothing like it once was, it’s not violent, the pogroms aren’t about to restart at any moment and I wouldn’t think of advising my Jewish friends against going.

    And, in fairness, Polish denunciations of “Jew-Communism” do have some basis in fact, at least when discussing the most repressive period in the 1950s. Also in fairness, the surviving Polish Jews who joined the Stalinist secret police in such large numbers were factually (but not morally) justified in believing they were giving the Poles a taste of their own medicine.

    The movie Ida, which deservedly won the Oscar for Best Foreign-Language Film a few years back, is a compelling and honest view into the tragedies of Poland and of the Polish Jews in the 20th century.

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    • Replies: @cliff arroyo
    "There’s more open antisemitism in Poland than you’ll find almost anywhere else "

    If you speak Polish you'll quickly find out that Poles speak about themselves in extremely antagonistic terms as well. Polish rhetoric is rougher than Americans are used to but they apply it to themselves as much as anyone else.
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  156. a reader says:

    Hilary Minc (24 August 1905, Kazimierz Dolny – 26 November 1974, Warsaw) was a communist politician in Stalinist Poland and a pro-Soviet Marxist economist.

    Hilary Minc

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  157. a reader says:
    @syonredux

    How many?
     
    In 1939?

    In 1933, approximately 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe, comprising 1.7% of the total European population. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world's Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million.
     

    Eastern Europe

    The majority of Jews in prewar Europe resided in eastern Europe. The largest Jewish communities in this area were in Poland, with about 3,000,000 Jews (9.5%); the European part of the Soviet Union, with 2,525,000 (3.4%); and Romania, with 756,000 (4.2%). The Jewish population in the three Baltic states totaled 255,000: 95,600 in Latvia, 155,000 in Lithuania, and 4,560 in Estonia. Here, Jews comprised 4.9%, 7.6%, and 0.4% of each country's population, respectively, and 5% of the region's total population.
     
    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

    … and after WWII ?

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  158. Bubba says:
    @Lex
    Is there something wrong with my comment that awaits moderation?

    Btw, here is something crazy from Jewish and leftist Polish perspective(guy speaking is Sławomir Sierakowski head of Soros sponsored Krytyka Polityczna and contributor for NYT): https://youtu.be/UAkcT5_MGqk?t=49

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRXgTPeyx3Q

    It's so insane it's difficult not to laugh.

    Until George Soros gives his entire fortune to the Jews & Gentiles from which he stole in WWII, then this ridiculous speech is completely moot. George Soros is the definition of chutzpah and I don’t mean it in an admirable way.

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  159. @Bies Podkrakowski

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.
     
    Actually that's total bullshit.

    Spend 5 minutes listening to Radio Maria.

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    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    Seriously? Radio Maryja? That's your argument for describing whole country as strongly antisemitic?
    , @polaco
    There's nothing antisemitic in their programming. Totally zero. If they were they wouldn't even get a license to broadcast. Any thinking person realizes this. Radio Maryja has been under attack by the left since inception. Particularly by the Gazeta Wyborcza, the preeminent leftist rag, which used to be the largest newspaper in circulation until peoples' eyes have opened and now it's struggling. It's longtime editor in chief, now retired, was one Adam Michnik, a jew whose real name is Schechter and whose half brother Stefan, a Stalinist prosecutor, lives in exile in Sweden and has successfully fought off several extradition attempts by Poland to bring him to justice for his crimes. His line of defense was of course that notorious polish antisemitism which would joeperdize any chance of having a fair trial.
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  160. Truth says:

    Hey guys; a Dog-Killer is a better man than tha’ whole lot of yaahz!

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21447070/michael-vick-makes-final-payment-clear-more-17-million-debt

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  161. snorlax says:
    @Moses

    Righteous Gentiles memorialized at Yad Vashem in Israel...

     

    Is it possible for a Gentile to be "Righteous" for anything other than helping Jews? Or is Gentiles' "Righteousness" measured only by the "Are they good for the Jews?" yardstick?

    Would a "Righteous Jew" be one who sticks his neck out for Gentiles? Or just Jews?

    Asking for a friend.

    The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva Mitzvot B’nei Noach), also referred to as the Noahide Laws or the Noachide Laws (from the English transliteration of the Hebrew pronunciation of “Noah”), are a set of imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God [1] as a binding set of laws for the “children of Noah” – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]

    Accordingly, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws because they were given by Moses[4] is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[5][6]

    The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated are the following:[7]

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to curse God.
    To establish courts of justice.
    Not to commit murder.
    Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
    Not to steal.
    Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

    In seriousness it’s a bit much to be offended that the Israeli Holocaust memorial foundation recognizes Gentiles who saved Jews from the Holocaust.

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    • Replies: @Big Bill
    You cannot be an official "righteous among the gentile" if you asked for money or anything. Yad Vashem, which officially certifies all the Righteous Among the Gentiles for the Jewish Nation, is pretty darned strict.

    If you were a WWII gentile fisherman and were smuggling Jews out of Germany at night [read: death sentence], asking them if they had money so you could get gas for the boat invalidates you.

    If you were sheltering Jews in your barn [read: death sentence] and asked them for money to help buy food in the village also invalidates you.

    The Jews are real strict on how righteous gentiles have to be. Even if your life was on the line, asking the Jews you are trying to save to contribute to their own salvation means that you risked your life for money.

    I think we should establish a Righteous Among the Jews and a Righteous Among the Negroes award for all those many Jews and Negroes who risk their own lives and the lives of their families to save white Christians.
    , @Moses

    In seriousness it’s a bit much to be offended that the Israeli Holocaust memorial foundation recognizes Gentiles who saved Jews from the Holocaust.
     
    Fair enough and a reasonable comment. That wasn't my point though.

    My point was that Jews seem to measure *everything* by the yardstick of the positive/negative impact on their group, i.e. "Is it good for the Jews?" Nothing else matters for them.

    Nothing wrong with that. Just calling it out. We Whites can learn from the Jews.

    As another commenter pointed out on these boards a few weeks ago -- In diversity America "We're all Jews now." Act like it.

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  162. @Name

    The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way.
     
    Utter bullshit. A key reason why they lost was because they gave into pressure to put a refugee quota in place. And they are not at all like czech leftists(where even the communists are against multiculti). Polish liberals are closer to their Western vermin.

    You claim not to be a Jew, but you argue like one. Full of barely-veiled hatred of Poles and getting everything wrong.

    I was in Poland during the elections. Where were you? Immigration was not an issue with most PiS voters I know. Kukiz voters were/are concerned about immigration. Most PiS voters were just sick of PO arrogance and corruption, and watching a small class of privileged people get very rich while most Poles continue to struggle. Emigration was a bigger issue than immigration because a lot of rural Poles find it humiliating that their sons/daughters need to go abroad to make money.

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  163. @Szopen
    You are completely wrong. PiS won in every segment of society - in young, old, urban, rural, high educated, low educated. It is true that the margin of victory was larger in uneducated old rural rednecks, but otoh PO won decisively in prisons. Does that mean PO is party of criminals (i mean, they are, but could you conclude that from the data about criminal voting preferences alone)?

    Also, 500 zlotys is often repeated by "mainstream" (ie the lemings) people, who have never talked to PiS voters and they just repeat what they hear in "normal, european" (ie compradorian) media. Don't fell for that.

    ” PiS won in every segment of society”

    But they won a lot of votes by keeping the party elite/leadership (Kaczyński and Macierewicz especially) out of sight and more or less promising they would play no important part in a PiS government. That didn’t last long and they alienated a lot of young people who were voting for a younger generation of politician and not the PRL fossils who ran back in to take over as soon as the votes were counted.

    I spend a lot of my working hours around highly educated young Polish people and none of them can stand the current government (especially Kaczyński or Macierewicz).

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  164. @snorlax
    No, he's right. There's more open antisemitism in Poland than you'll find almost anywhere else outside of the Muslim world. But it's nothing like it once was, it's not violent, the pogroms aren't about to restart at any moment and I wouldn't think of advising my Jewish friends against going.

    And, in fairness, Polish denunciations of "Jew-Communism" do have some basis in fact, at least when discussing the most repressive period in the 1950s. Also in fairness, the surviving Polish Jews who joined the Stalinist secret police in such large numbers were factually (but not morally) justified in believing they were giving the Poles a taste of their own medicine.

    The movie Ida, which deservedly won the Oscar for Best Foreign-Language Film a few years back, is a compelling and honest view into the tragedies of Poland and of the Polish Jews in the 20th century.

    “There’s more open antisemitism in Poland than you’ll find almost anywhere else ”

    If you speak Polish you’ll quickly find out that Poles speak about themselves in extremely antagonistic terms as well. Polish rhetoric is rougher than Americans are used to but they apply it to themselves as much as anyone else.

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  165. @Peter Akuleyev
    Spend 5 minutes listening to Radio Maria.

    Seriously? Radio Maryja? That’s your argument for describing whole country as strongly antisemitic?

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    • Replies: @utu
    He is anti-Catholic or something.
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  166. @JohnnyD
    I don't see how the Poles are being "undemocratic." The majority of their people voted to keep the migrants out. It's not like this nationalism was forced upon the Poles, the way Merkel forced her people to accept millions of refugees. Also, it's the German government which is throwing people in jail for complaining about the government's immigration policies.

    It’s not like they aren’t being democratic, it’s just the wrong kind of democratic. One needs to read the NYT and WaPo regularly in order to understand these nuances.

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  167. Eagle Eye says:
    @Wilkey
    Angela Merkel ran roughshod over German and EU law by inviting the refugees into Germany and then forcing them on the EU. If she had put her policy up for a referendum it would have failed miserably, yet she is hailed as a hero of democracy. The Polish government is heeding the will of the overwhelming majority of its people, but it is authoritarian.

    And journalists wonder why people no longer trust them.

    Angela Merkel is a CIA stooge. Merkel’s sudden opening of the floodgates to Muslim migrants after years of planning and preparatory groundwork was ably executed by Obama’s CIA, but draws on long-standing, bipartisan Deep State planning.

    Draconian “hate speech” laws are now in effect in most European countries and enforced vigorously to ensure that the destruction of Europe will have become a fait accompli before any serious opposition has a chance to crystallize among the native populace. Counter-immigrant parties are actively undermined through tried-and-true secret service techniques.

    Team Trump is now on the fence as to whether to reverse course or continue with the bipartisan “program.” China is watching from the sidelines, waiting for Eurasia to fall into its lap, and planning policies for absorbing Europe. The Muslims themselves are merely extras in a much larger “Great Game.” Given the uneasy truce currently prevailing between the CIA and Trump, drastic changes are unlikely.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    How did the CIA come to be run by anti-American traitors? This goes back a while at least to Bush I who ran it and was clearly a globalist,
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  168. a reader says:

    On March 15, 1945, Morel became commander of the infamous Zgoda camp in Świętochłowice.[3] The Zgoda camp was set up by the Soviet political police, or NKVD, after the Soviet Army entered southern Poland. In February 1945 the camp was handed over to the Communist Polish secret service, the notorious Urząd Bezpieczeństwa.

    Sometimes children were sent to the camp along with parents.[7] Prisoners were not accused of any crime, but were sent by decision of Security Authorities. Authorities tried to convince society that prisoners were only ethnic Germans and former Nazi war criminals and collaborators.[7] It is estimated that close to 2,000 inmates died in the camp where torture and abuse of prisoners were chronic and rampant.

    Poland twice requested his extradition, but Israel refused to comply and rejected the more serious charges as being false, potentially part of an antisemitic conspiracy, and again rejected extradition on the grounds that the statute of limitations against Morel had run out, and that Morel was in poor health.

    Salomon Morel

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  169. @Nico
    Wikipedians already voted to ban "religion" from the sidebar vital data along with a person's date of birth, party affiliation, etc. I strongly recommend searching down the conversation and reading it. It was very illuminating into the mindset of academics and journalists as well as the complete and utter lack of historical and social sensibility of our times.

    Is the Pope Catholic?

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    He's nearly a communist and probably a homosexual. Not sure, though, whether he is Christian.
    , @Autochthon
    Not anymore, no; he genuinely is not.
    , @Nico
    I used to ask that question ironically. Since Bergoglio set his bum on the seat of St. Peter I have found myself asking the question literally.
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  170. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    Encouragement wasn't always needed, especially in the Ukraine. In Lvov (Lemberg, Lviv, however you want to call it) the Ukrainians were so brutal that the Germans told them to tone it down a little. Poland wasn't usually that bad, but there were plenty of horrible things - Polish extortionists who would blackmail hidden Jews (and then turn them over to the Germans when they had extorted everything), Poles who would turn in Jews for a reward of a bag of sugar, etc. When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren't always who you think they are, in either direction.

    Pre-war Poland was not like modern day America where anti-Semites usually feel the need to disguise their views in public - plenty (though by no means all or even most) Poles wore their anti-Semitism openly and proudly, as explicit planks of their right wing political platform. But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government (which, while in some ways anti-Semitic after the death of Pilsudski, was still committed to rule of law) were well able to hold their own until the Germans showed up. But Poland had plenty of native anti-Semites who didn't need encouragement from the Germans - license alone was quite sufficient.

    When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren’t always who you think they are, in either direction.

    Didn’t the Jews assist the Soviets with their invasion of Poland during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920? Might this have had something to do with the attitudes of Polish nationalist pre-WW2?

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    I can't speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused to unload ships for the Polish Army in 1920. The mutual cooperation between the Red Army and the Reichswehr in the 1920s was based off of destroying Poland.
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  171. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Cyrano
    Catholicism and Islam are actually very compatible. Both religions supposedly preach a belief in God, but what they actually preach is a belief in their religion. Those are 2 different things.

    Believing in God makes you a good person, someone who appreciates all the God’s creations. Believing in your particular brand of religion, on the other hand, makes you an a**hole. Probably even worse than that, makes you a homicidal maniac, because a member of any religion other than your own is a “Godless” individual that deserves to die.

    Catholics put this to practice in South America, where the ignorance of a Christian God was enough evidence for the Catholics that those people that they found over there - are savages who don’t deserve to live. Islam is pretty much the same – it’s not about belief in God, it’s about a belief in the superiority of their religion. Anybody who doesn’t belong to their religion – all bets are off.

    Polaks have similar attitude towards religion, they don’t necessarily believe in God as much as they believe in Catholicism. Big distinction. So I don’t see a reason why these 2 religions similar in attitudes couldn’t find a way for better understanding and coexisting with each other.

    Believing in your particular brand of religion, on the other hand, makes you an a**hole.

    Would that make you Exhibit #1?

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    • Replies: @Cyrano
    No, but you look like a prime candidate to fill that spot.
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  172. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Assuming the left in this country gains full power at some point, a question I’ve had is how they and their neocon allies plan to carry out all the wars they’d like to fight. I’m figuring that the Scots-Irish fighting types that like to volunteer for our armed forces aren’t going too be keen on attacking Poland to get them to accept diversity. That’s where the draft will come in. And mark my words, it will be the left that reinstates it. It likely will be some backdoor provision; a Dem or RINO presidential candidate will suggest that mandatory “national service” be passed in order to promote national cohesiveness (which we will need in order to manage our multi-cult society).

    The draft will never come back.

    With a draft, people start to really care about where the army is being sent. That’s the last thing our ruling class wants – to have to make their case to the general public before committing the military to some whackistan. They learned from Vietnam.

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  173. @Peripatetic commenter
    Steven Pinker probably agrees!

    https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/931156417314279424

    And when an area is more than any small percentage African, support for any Democrat whosoever skyrockets. What else?

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  174. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The NYT (and the forces it represents) can’t have a single country such as Poland or Hungary remaining majority-white. If they did, other white people might move there and before you know it, a critical mass could arise which could interfere with the ‘forces’ dominion.

    They will bring the entire show down à la Samson Option before they’ll let a single country remain majority-white. Because to them, it’s the same thing: white people in control of their own destiny interferes with the ‘Tribe’ and their own objectives.

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  175. Jews want Moslems everywhere but in the Middle East … can’t imagine why.

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  176. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Assuming the left in this country gains full power at some point, a question I’ve had is how they and their neocon allies plan to carry out all the wars they’d like to fight. I’m figuring that the Scots-Irish fighting types that like to volunteer for our armed forces aren’t going too be keen on attacking Poland to get them to accept diversity. That’s where the draft will come in. And mark my words, it will be the left that reinstates it. It likely will be some backdoor provision; a Dem or RINO presidential candidate will suggest that mandatory “national service” be passed in order to promote national cohesiveness (which we will need in order to manage our multi-cult society).

    My children will NOT be conscripted to die and kill needlessly for this empire. I will help them leave the USA if necessary. And they will have the language skills to live and thrive in a lot of other places.

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  177. @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland’s population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles?

    “The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils.”

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles. They had 21 inter-war years to industrialize and re-arm themselves. The Bolsheviks were glaringly intent upon expansion and conquest from the beginning and the Germans were as well in the 1930s. And the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today’s Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.

    But ethnic squabbles, elite infighting, squalid traditional feudal economies, and jockeying for status absorbed the potential of the Polish nation. They had every opportunity to unify, invest, and grow by open trade, land reform, and dissolving cartels and monopolies with free competition. They could have invested in schools, roads, and universities. But they did not; it was more important to keep elites powerful than to create wealth.

    And the poor—but stably hierarchical—Poland had no ability to defend against the Nazis and Soviets. So 20% of Poles died, including nearly every single one of the Jews. Non-Communist Party elites were mostly murdered or imprisoned. And the communists didn’t do so hot either.

    But they had time and opportunity to avoid their own destruction. It was plainly coming and gave abundant warning. And they did nothing.

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.

    Just as America and western Europe deserve 100% of the blame for what is happening to them today. It’s not the Moslem and African invaders that are ruining them. They’re ruining themselves. They have been given abundant warning. And they are doing nothing to stop it.

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    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.
     
    Fascinating theory.

    But you are obviously confusing late First Republic also called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth a.k.a Kingdom of Poland (translating polish term Rzeczpospolita is tricky) and Second Polish Republic.

    the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today’s Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.
     
    This stimulates reward centers of my nationalistic brain. Any sources on this?
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles.
     
    Oh come on, victim blaming? Really, you should re-examine your premises.
    , @Issac
    By this logic all of our own ancestors who failed to flee Europe deserved their deaths too. What a morally repugnant screed.
    , @Thirdeye
    Poland's mistake was in failing to foresee the rearmament of Germany and the rapid emergence of Soviet industrial power. Their security strategy depended on Anglo-French sponsorship, as established in the 1919-1921 wars. What worked in 1921 no longer worked in 1939.
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  178. @cliff arroyo
    "Poles had never given much thought to Islam"

    Does he even realize there's an indigenous muslim minority (Tatars in the northeast)?

    I've never heard any Pole say a bad word about the Tatars (known among other things for their fierce Polish patriotism).

    I have heard that relations are not always easy between them and more recent arrivals (and that Saudi missionary efforts among the Tatars were not tremendously successful)

    The so-called Lipka Tartars are a tiny, insignificant minority of about twenty thousand. Proves nothing about how Muslims can be expected to behave if they achieve real numbers in Poland.

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  179. guest says:
    @Jason Liu
    The western world uses 'democratic' as a catch-all word for everything that sounds nice and loving. If the people vote for something mean then it's not "real democracy".

    If the people vote for something mean, then it’s “politics,” which is a dirty word.

    We’re schizophrenic on the subject of democratic politics.

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  180. Pat Casey says:
    @Johann Ricke

    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it’s not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)
     
    Imagine if Muslims built a mosque on the borders of the World Trade Center, promising to pray for all the dead infidels on 9/11. Except 6m infidels died on 9/11. Imagine if the Muslim reaction was to hate infidels even more. Would you say it's not hard to see the infidels brought this hate upon themselves?

    First of all a mosque is not the equivalent of a convent. If there was a dilapidated abandoned building near the WTC site and a small group of Muslim women were living there as nuns as a form of reparation, I would not be offended by that at all. I would say they are friends of America. But that’s still an imperfect analogy, because the Holocaust was not the outcome of Catholic doctrine. You addled idiot.

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  181. @a reader

    There is no questions that the 1930s Polish nationalist parties were unashamedly anti-Semitic.
     
    Is it some incurable illness?

    “There is no question that the second-century Jews were unashamedly anti-Christian.”

    And the fourth-century Jews.

    And the nineteenth-century Jews.

    And the twentieth-Century Jews.

    And the twenty-first-century Jews.

    And I say this as someone who grew up in a heavily Jewish area and can relate to and understand them quite well for a Goy. My best friend here in L.A. is a politically conservative Jewish guy who is OB-SESSED with his Jewish identity. He is comfortable enough with me that he has let slip his rather vicious bias against Slavs, especially Russia and Poland. I had to remind him, hey you’re my bud but please remember that I am both Christian and part Slavic.

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  182. @SecretaryNS
    You're telling us that in Poland, the two most powerful parties are BOTH anti-immigration?

    Be still, my beating heart!

    Is Polish too hard for a 40- or 50-something to learn decently well? Hmm….

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  183. guest says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    There are all sorts of questions in Holocaust literature about why the death camps were in Poland, how enthusiastic Poles were about helping Germans kill Jews, etc.

    Here’s something the history books rarely ponder: for many decades Official History tried to pass off concentration camps in Germany as industrial slaughter houses, but eventually had to give them all up. The supposedly real death camps all happen to be located within territory conquered by the Soviet Union. Coincidence?

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  184. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    I wonder whether the alliterative phrase "a million marching men" in the first sentence is an allusion to
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

    Mark, OT, but West Seneca West HS has an outstanding football team, of course their nick name the “Indians” is not acceptable.

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  185. polskijoe says:
    @dearieme
    The Poles were unmanly enough to allow themselves to be bullied into converting from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism. No doubt they'll make good moslems eventually.

    Poland was never Protestant.
    There was a time when some of the “elites” and parts were turning protestant.
    Thankfully that failed. I want none of that “Christian” Zionism or liberal Protestant stuff
    which has effect the vast majority of Protestants in the white world.

    It was majority Catholic for almost all of 1000 years.

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  186. guest says:
    @George
    "Angela Merkel’s sudden whim of inviting a million marching men"

    They didn't ask permission. After more than a decade of war the refugee numbers in Turkey swelled to the point they overflowed.

    Look at a map. There’s an awful lot of territory between Turkey and Germany. What’s the connection between them spontaneously overflowing Turkey’s borders and Merkel’s Boner? There is none.

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  187. @anonymous
    Steve
    Interesting post and quite ironic. There are a lot of Polish immigrants in the UK and they are not very popular:
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/poland-shocked-xenophobic-abuse-poles-uk-160627105512611.html

    Maybe a surprise to some here but white isnt always white

    If the Brits had any sense left, they would focus their ire and energy on deporting and excluding Muslims from their country, not complaining about Poles. (yes, I realize that Poles compete against Brits for jobs, hence the infamous “Polish plumber” trope)

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  188. Sorry my friends, you have posted well but all that needs to be said is….NYT show me your diverse Editorial Board. Silence.

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  189. @Anonymous
    Britain would be in a far better state if it 'lost' at least half a million eastern Europeans.

    Here in America, many of us would gladly trade a half million of our Mexican or Muslim immigrants for those terrible Slavs.

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  190. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Gosh, it’s as if “diversity” were code for something else …

    Weird how it’s only imposed on White countries.

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  191. @Cyrano
    Catholicism and Islam are actually very compatible. Both religions supposedly preach a belief in God, but what they actually preach is a belief in their religion. Those are 2 different things.

    Believing in God makes you a good person, someone who appreciates all the God’s creations. Believing in your particular brand of religion, on the other hand, makes you an a**hole. Probably even worse than that, makes you a homicidal maniac, because a member of any religion other than your own is a “Godless” individual that deserves to die.

    Catholics put this to practice in South America, where the ignorance of a Christian God was enough evidence for the Catholics that those people that they found over there - are savages who don’t deserve to live. Islam is pretty much the same – it’s not about belief in God, it’s about a belief in the superiority of their religion. Anybody who doesn’t belong to their religion – all bets are off.

    Polaks have similar attitude towards religion, they don’t necessarily believe in God as much as they believe in Catholicism. Big distinction. So I don’t see a reason why these 2 religions similar in attitudes couldn’t find a way for better understanding and coexisting with each other.

    Compare the New Testament to the koran and it shouldn’t be hard to answer your own rather question.

    If your hatred of catholics or the RC Church is strong enough to make you try to conflate Catholicism with islam, you should step back and consider that is rational or healthy.

    And I say that as someone who has left the RC Church.

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    • Replies: @Cyrano
    The only difference between a Catholic and a Muslim is that a Catholic believes that his religion makes him more civilized – and thus a better person, while a Muslim believes that his religion makes him a better person.

    There is only one extra step that Catholics take to reach the conclusion that their religion makes them better. They are both wrong. Religion doesn’t make anyone better if all the other indicators for humaneness are coming up empty.
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  192. @Faraday's Bobcat
    Is the Pope Catholic?

    He’s nearly a communist and probably a homosexual. Not sure, though, whether he is Christian.

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  193. @Anonymous

    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.
     
    Before veering off into his ethnic resentments Gross is glancing at Edsall's topsy-turvy observation:

    The election of Donald Trump revealed that in some of the nation’s whitest municipalities and counties — the communities arguably most insulated from urban crime, immigration and gangs -- ...
     
    This argumentation is so common there must be a catchy phrase for it by now.

    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.”

    This actually doesn’t make much sense. Most Poles (proxy for white Europeans) can definitely distinguish an ethnically Muslim (mostly Mid. Eastern/North African) and an ethnically Buddhist (mostly Asian) from Jesus.

    A question to turn around would be, can NYT writers distinguish a Muslim or a Buddhist from Moses? That’s a fair question in the same vein.

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Jesus probably looked like your typical Palestinian Jew of the day: prominent black or dark brown beard, olive skin, probably highly muscular given the fact that he was possibly impressed into service as a slave laborer for the Romans as a teenager, worked as a carpenter, and was a dynamic preacher in the wilderness.

    So, you could make a case for people confusing him with, say, a Lebanese Shi'a. But an African or a Chinese? (Or for that matter, a German?) Highly unlikely.

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  194. KenH says:

    Jan Gross’s column should erase all doubt that Jews are riding shotgun (and carrying the shotgun) in the quest to racially amalgamate Europe with African savages and barbarous Middle East Muslims. So it’s the Jews, stupid. Merkel, May and other Euro dunderheads are merely tools to advance this agenda.

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  195. Pat Casey says:
    @Jack D
    John Paul was a pretty smart guy as well as very spiritual so if he thought it was a bad idea then maybe it really was a bad idea? What would you think of say a Buddhist monastery on the Gettysburg battlefield?

    As a traditionalist Catholic I think John Paul II had nothing but bad ideas when it came to inter-religious issues. I think he should have called those malicious Jewish accusers the Synagogue of Satan.

    A Buddhist monastery on the Gettysburg battlefield would be strange beyond strange but I would not mind it personally. But if the Gettysburg battlefield was in Cambodia, well that would be as strange as a convent in Poland.

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  196. @Anonymous

    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.
     
    Before veering off into his ethnic resentments Gross is glancing at Edsall's topsy-turvy observation:

    The election of Donald Trump revealed that in some of the nation’s whitest municipalities and counties — the communities arguably most insulated from urban crime, immigration and gangs -- ...
     
    This argumentation is so common there must be a catchy phrase for it by now.

    This argumentation is so common there must be a catchy phrase for it by now.

    Communism.

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  197. Big Bill says:
    @snorlax

    The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach), also referred to as the Noahide Laws or the Noachide Laws (from the English transliteration of the Hebrew pronunciation of "Noah"), are a set of imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God [1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]

    Accordingly, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws because they were given by Moses[4] is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[5][6]

    The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated are the following:[7]

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to curse God.
    To establish courts of justice.
    Not to commit murder.
    Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
    Not to steal.
    Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
     
    In seriousness it's a bit much to be offended that the Israeli Holocaust memorial foundation recognizes Gentiles who saved Jews from the Holocaust.

    You cannot be an official “righteous among the gentile” if you asked for money or anything. Yad Vashem, which officially certifies all the Righteous Among the Gentiles for the Jewish Nation, is pretty darned strict.

    If you were a WWII gentile fisherman and were smuggling Jews out of Germany at night [read: death sentence], asking them if they had money so you could get gas for the boat invalidates you.

    If you were sheltering Jews in your barn [read: death sentence] and asked them for money to help buy food in the village also invalidates you.

    The Jews are real strict on how righteous gentiles have to be. Even if your life was on the line, asking the Jews you are trying to save to contribute to their own salvation means that you risked your life for money.

    I think we should establish a Righteous Among the Jews and a Righteous Among the Negroes award for all those many Jews and Negroes who risk their own lives and the lives of their families to save white Christians.

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    • Replies: @J. Sailerite
    Absolutely libelous. One could still be righteous among the gentiles if one took money, but only that needed to cover expenses, not to profit as a black marketer.

    "No material reward or substantial compensation was exacted by the rescuer from the rescued as a condition for extending aid."
    http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFA-Archive/2003/Pages/The%20Righteous%20Among%20the%20Nations.aspx
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  198. @Nico
    Wikipedians already voted to ban "religion" from the sidebar vital data along with a person's date of birth, party affiliation, etc. I strongly recommend searching down the conversation and reading it. It was very illuminating into the mindset of academics and journalists as well as the complete and utter lack of historical and social sensibility of our times.

    At the bottom of each article you can see the categories the article is included in – very useful for learning things (ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation) that may not be included in the article itself. No sources though.

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  199. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    http://stuffblackpeopledontlike.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-post-apartheid-condition-of-ponte.html

    People stopped believing in Potemkin Villages.

    But they never seem to wake up to the grim reality of Ittakesa Villages.

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  200. utu says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski
    Seriously? Radio Maryja? That's your argument for describing whole country as strongly antisemitic?

    He is anti-Catholic or something.

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  201. Corn says:
    @Tiny Duck
    You people support pedophiles like Roy Moore and that is one of the many reasons you will lose badly in the future.

    Just complete moral bankruptcy

    Leonard Pitts has great commentary on this

    “Leonard Pitts has great commentary on this”

    Paging Fish……

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  202. @Jack D
    Funny you should mention Przytyk - my father was from Przytyk and was personally present for the pogrom. In case you haven't noticed, Wikipedia is not written by the gods but by humans who are subject to human biases. The editing of the Przytyk article has been hijacked by Polish nationalist types who give a highly one sided account of the actions of the day. Of course my memory of my father's version is not a historic source that meets Wikipedia standards, but in the memorial book of Przytyk (the survivors of almost every Jewish shtetl in Poland put together a memorial book after the war, in place of the graves that the dead did not have) Frydman (who survived the war and lived in Israel) gives a very different account. I have considered editing the Przytyk article based on Frydman as a source, but frankly I don't have the energy to fight with the nationalist assholes.

    As I alluded to earlier (and this is in part what I was alluding to), before the German elephant showed up, the Polish anti-Semitic minority and the Jews were fairly evenly matched o a physical level. Frydman had been in the Polish army and had some notion of weapons and tactics. The Jewish self-defense had been prepared in advance. The Prytyk pogrom was not some Fiddler on the Roof thing where the mean Russians beat up the helpless Jews - the Jews (including my father) gave as good as they got and he was proud of this.

    But morally, I don't think you can put the Jews and the anti-Semites on the same level. Were the Korean liquor store owners of LA with their rifles on the rooftop of their stores on the same moral level as the looters in the street? The root of the pogrom was the cause of "Polonization" - the idea that the Jews of Poland should be (by force if necessary by louts who would stand in front of your shop and "discourage" Poles from entering) deprived of their livelihood so that they would leave Poland. Przytyk, BTW was 80% Jewish. Polish farmers from the surrounding countryside came there specifically to patronize the Jewish shops and marketplace because Jews were skilled artisans making shoes, clothing, farm implements, etc. that they could not produce on their farms.

    An interesting book I read once, I think it was called Vilna.
    Anyway, stories are told and retold and if your dad was a communist/socialist then the Poles did it. The point is there are a millions of reasons and stories of what happened, one for each. People say why do people fight in a war and then they argue over the reasons, but the facts are that each has his reason. The religious man will be prompted for or by his religion. the nationalist for his nation and people, the oligarch will start the war for power, the businessman will pick a side to sell products and wealth, the mother and father who tries to protect there children, the child born into revenge. There are lots of reasons that things happen the way they do and there are reasons why God set the world originally the way it was, but of course some people really just don’t believe in that stuff.

    P.S
    I’m almost positive the Holocaust happened while the Jews were down south in America saving the blacks from slavery. You know once I mentioned to my daughter that white people helped blacks escape slavery and she was shocked and said “they did?”

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    • Replies: @utu
    Great Anti-Semitic Pogrom in Przytyk: Poles started riot. ews in self-defense wounded 3 Poles. Then Poles intensified riot. One Pole was shot. And then two Jews were killed.

    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/this-day-in-jewish-history/1.707613

    March 9, 1936, is the date on which intercommunal violence between Jews and non-Jews in the Polish town of Przytyk led to the deaths of three people and the wounding of more than 20. Two of the dead were Jews, and one was a non-Jew.

    The incident is generally referred to by Jewish historians as the “Przytyk Pogrom,” although “riot” may be more fitting. Anti-Semitism was behind the series of events that led to the violence, but the violence itself was spontaneous, rather than a planned attack.

    The Endecjna (National Democracy) party was encouraging people to boycott Jewish-owned businesses, and to set up alternatives to them that would be owned by non-Jews. In response, some Jews flooded the market with products, pushing prices down to a level that made it hard for the newcomers to compete.

    Anticipating friction, the police beefed up their presence in Przytyk on March 9. They did manage to prevent significant confrontations throughout the morning, though there were cases of the market stalls of Jews being overturned

    By afternoon, however, matters got out of hand. A number of Jewish businesses were attacked, the Jewish defense group responded, and three non-Jews were wounded. Skirmishes turned into riots, and crowds began to attack Jewish-owned homes.

    At one point, when a mob began shattering the windows of a residence at 53 Warszawski Street, a defense league member living there fired into street from his window, killing a non-Jew, Stanislaw Wiesniak. In the ensuing chaos, a Jewish couple, Josek and Khaye Minkowski, were killed too.
     
    , @Jack D
    My father was not a Communist, he was a simple fisherman whose only wish was to be left alone to catch his carp.
    , @Anonymous
    Not really. Wars are fought for territory or resources, except maybe for the bloody borders of Islam. Also, violence and war are different things.
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  203. Big Bill says:
    @Anon 2
    It's always refreshing for me to interact with Israeli Jews
    as compared to the American Jews. For the latter it's
    always 1933, especially for the older generation, those
    in their 60s or 70s. The Israelis, by comparison, are a breath
    of fresh air. They have a country to run so they've moved on.
    I'd venture to say that the younger Jews who are often only
    half- or one-quarter Jewish have also managed to move on.

    It's very similar to the difference between the American blacks
    and the blacks from Africa.

    So true. Israelis are pretty normal, healthy, ethnocentric, quasi-racist folks, much like everyone else on the planet. Galut Jews, however, are another story. Forget “next year in Jerusalem.” Make it this year.

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  204. @Faraday's Bobcat
    Is the Pope Catholic?

    Not anymore, no; he genuinely is not.

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  205. @(((Owen)))

    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland’s population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles?
     
    "The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils."

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles. They had 21 inter-war years to industrialize and re-arm themselves. The Bolsheviks were glaringly intent upon expansion and conquest from the beginning and the Germans were as well in the 1930s. And the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today's Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.

    But ethnic squabbles, elite infighting, squalid traditional feudal economies, and jockeying for status absorbed the potential of the Polish nation. They had every opportunity to unify, invest, and grow by open trade, land reform, and dissolving cartels and monopolies with free competition. They could have invested in schools, roads, and universities. But they did not; it was more important to keep elites powerful than to create wealth.

    And the poor—but stably hierarchical—Poland had no ability to defend against the Nazis and Soviets. So 20% of Poles died, including nearly every single one of the Jews. Non-Communist Party elites were mostly murdered or imprisoned. And the communists didn't do so hot either.

    But they had time and opportunity to avoid their own destruction. It was plainly coming and gave abundant warning. And they did nothing.

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.

    Just as America and western Europe deserve 100% of the blame for what is happening to them today. It's not the Moslem and African invaders that are ruining them. They're ruining themselves. They have been given abundant warning. And they are doing nothing to stop it.

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.

    Fascinating theory.

    But you are obviously confusing late First Republic also called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth a.k.a Kingdom of Poland (translating polish term Rzeczpospolita is tricky) and Second Polish Republic.

    the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today’s Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.

    This stimulates reward centers of my nationalistic brain. Any sources on this?

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    • Replies: @(((Owen)))
    I just know that in academics, in engineering companies, and the major math, physics, and computer sciences olympiads for students, the Poles show up at top levels in numbers ridiculously out of proportion to population.
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  206. nebulafox says:
    @anonymous

    When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren’t always who you think they are, in either direction.
     
    Didn't the Jews assist the Soviets with their invasion of Poland during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920? Might this have had something to do with the attitudes of Polish nationalist pre-WW2?

    I can’t speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused to unload ships for the Polish Army in 1920. The mutual cooperation between the Red Army and the Reichswehr in the 1920s was based off of destroying Poland.

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    • Replies: @anonymous

    I can’t speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused to unload ships for the Polish Army in 1920.
     
    And there was a good reason for that. The German workers in Danzig felt their city was still part of Germany and did not support the treaty that separated it from German rule.
    , @anonymous

    I can’t speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused ....
     
    Well since the topic was why are the Poles anti-semitic, it's immaterial what the Germans did or did not do in 1920. During the Soviet-Polish war of 1920, the Soviets put Jews in charge of Polish territories taken by the Red Army. Maybe watching their Jewish neighbors willingly cooperate with their enemy played some role in how the Polish nationalists of the 1930s felt towards Polish Jews.
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  207. utu says:

    Helaloooo! Comments #156 and #168 still waiting.

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  208. Miro23 says:
    @benjaminl
    If we compare Andrzej Fister-Stoga's 2007 review of Jan Gross in First Things with Norman Davies's 1987 exchange with Abraham Brumberg in the New York Review of Books (cited by Fister-Stoga), the echoes are really striking. You might almost Notice a Pattern:



    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/001-fear-and-trembling

    Fister-Stoga:

    At the outset of his book, Gross clearly states that “the nature of prejudice is to make unwarranted totalizing claims, whereas understanding advances through elucidation of careful distinctions.” In his analysis, he makes much needed and careful distinctions when writing about the behavior of people of Jewish origin. Gross indicates, for example, that highly placed Jews in communist security services were “second to none in cruelly abusing their prisoners.” He does not object to their being described as “instrumental in imposing communism on Polish society after the war”a fine proposition, provided that ‘they’ signifies ‘zealous Communist apparatchiks,’ not ‘Jews,’ and that ethnicity does not factor into the equation.” Gross is also careful not to confuse instances of violent behavior with some sort of obsessive hatred. When judging the cruel actions of these communist secret-police officials, who happened to be Jewish, Gross writes: “Frankly, there is not much to say in direct reply except that these were bad people.”

    Gross unfortunately does not make the same analytical effort when examining the behavior of non-Jews. A small minority of Poles violently killed returning Jews is, in Gross’ eye, a warrant to write about all Poles being anti-Semitic. “What stands out on this gruesome occasion” of the Kielce pogrom “is the widely shared sense in Polish society that getting rid of Jews, by killing them if necessary, was permissible.” On the same page, Gross describes a casual conversation between a Polish policeman and a truck driver in which the latter agrees to transport a Jewish woman and her child to be murdered: “The only thing that matters is that [the conversation] could have taken place, indeed that it did take place, and that it was a completely comprehensible exchange between strangers in Poland in Anno Domini 1946.” To make such totalizing statements is simply unfair to the vast majority of Poles who did not participate in violence against Jews.

    It is a pity that Gross was unable to keep to his methodological principles when writing about the behavior of Poles during and after the war but simply lumped them all together: the “bad people” together with the majority of the indifferent and the few noble ones. This is the biggest flaw of an otherwise important work, for it amounts to a failed chance to give a balanced account in an area of study where balanced scholarship is so badly needed.
     
    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1987/04/09/poles-and-jews-an-exchange/

    Davies:

    Mr. Brumberg’s frantic efforts to pin the anti-Semitic label onto all manner of Polish individuals and organization—with occasional gestures toward the exceptional “good Pole” or righteous gentile, to prove his rule—can only serve to emphasize the crudity of his favorite weapon. One must seriously inquire whether the concept of anti-Semitism is adequate to the task of defining and explaining the historic conflict of two nations. For one thing, the word “anti-Semitism” appears to be infinitely elastic, being applied to everything from the advocacy of genocide to a dislike for bagels. Nowadays in America, it is widely used to condemn any criticism of Jews, or of the Jewish state, Israel, irrespective of the merits of such criticism. Furthermore, like all its dialectical counterparts, such as “anti-Sovietism,” it can easily be used to smear all expression of dissenting opinion, since any protesters to the smear can automatically be tagged with the same lousy label.

    Worst of all, when applied to complex international or intercommunal relationships, it assumes from the start that the main source of any antagonisms where Jews are involved must lie with the Jews’ opponents. In the nature of things, anti-Semitism cannot be invoked to explore the attitude and conduct of the Semites, nor to consider the happier aspects of the Semites’ relations with their neighbors. When applied to the history of Poles and Jews, it cannot do other than suggest firstly that there are no redeeming features to the tale, and secondly that the Poles are to blame for all the misery.

    Anti-Semitism, therefore, looks to be a sadly blunt and one-sided tool, capable of probing only one side of multidimensional problems. It is as though one were asked to write the history of Ireland armed solely with the concept of “anti-Protestantism,” or to analyze Moslem–Hindu relations in India on the sole basis of “anti-Islamism,” or to expound on Russo-American relations on the sole basis of the “anti-Americanism” of the Russians. No one in his right mind would deny that an irrational hatred of Jews has been a recurrent and deplorable ingredient of Poland’s many social and political conflicts. But that ingredient is but one item in a far more complicated and unsavory menu. Another ingredient is the irrational hatred of some Jews for Poles.
     
    [...]

    The Yad Vashem archive in Israel, too, provides detailed substantiation of the same picture. “The Jews welcomed the Red Army with joy. The young people spent all their days and evenings with the soldiers.” In Grodno, “all sorts of appointments were filled predominantly with Jews, and the Soviet authorities entrusted them, too, with the top positions.” In Lwów, “I must admit that the majority of positions in the Soviet agencies have been taken by Jews.” A Jewish observer to the pro-Soviet demonstrations in Lwów related, “Whenever a political march, or protest meeting, or some other sort of joyful event took place, the visual effect was unambiguous—Jews.” In Wielkie Oczy, the Jewish doctor recalled how local Jewish youths, having formed themselves into a “Komsomol” toured the countryside smashing Catholic shrines. The references can be found in a recent study of the Soviet deportations from eastern Poland by J.T. and I. Gross, W Czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali: Polska, a Rosja, 1939–1942.9

    In Pinsk, where the population was over 90 percent Jewish, young Jews built an “Arc de Triomphe.”

    The purpose here, of course, is not to demonstrate what one hopes would be taken for granted, namely, that Jews given the chance will behave as well or as badly as anyone else. The purpose is simply to show that the marked increase in anti-Semitism in occupied Poland in 1939–1941 was linked to Jewish conduct. To put the perspective of many Poles emotively, Jews were seen to be dancing on Poland’s grave.

    Naturally, there is more to the story than that. Objectively speaking, there was no reason for Polish Jews as a whole to react to Poland’s downfall in the way that most Poles did, nor for them to share the Polish feeling that collaborating with the invaders was in itself an act of disloyalty. Nor should one forget that the prevalence of Jews in the Soviet organs of oppression did not stop the Soviets, once established, from devastating Jewish life in the Soviet zone.

     

    There is much more in Davies's response, but basically, he (like Fister-Stoga 20 years later) tries to acknowledge the complexity and shades of gray among the respective ethnic communities, being balanced while also making judgments. Whereas Brumberg, like Jan Gross, focuses more on demonizing and defaming the Gentiles.

    The purpose is simply to show that the marked increase in anti-Semitism in occupied Poland in 1939–1941 was linked to Jewish conduct. To put the perspective of many Poles emotively, Jews were seen to be dancing on Poland’s grave.

    Worth repeating, and US Jews are now dancing on the Anglo grave, which may well work in the same way.

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  209. nebulafox says:

    Poland had a very different relationship with its Jews than Germany did. For one thing, the Jewish minority was much, much larger in Poland-10x larger than in Germany, at least. More importantly, it was much more traditional and generally tended to be segregated from their Polish neighbors in Yiddish speaking shtetls. Those in the cities lived in their own neighborhoods. To many Jews in Poland, the Polish language might as well have Mandarin, and vice versa. The German Jews, by contrast, were considered to be “more German than the Germans” and were largely concentrated in the big cities, with 1/3rd living in Berlin alone. The “Ostjuden” who emigrated to places like Berlin, Breslau, Leipzig, Frankfurt, etc, typically held them in contempt, and vice versa.

    It isn’t a coincidence that the Holocaust escalated in Poland-and would reach its climax with Barbarossa when the Wehrmacht hit the heart of the old Pale. Very few German soldiers likely had any contact with Orthodox, Yiddish speaking Ostjuden back in Germany, meaning that Nazi propaganda was highly effective.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Poland had a very different relationship with its Jews than Germany did.
     
    Yep.

    Only 12 percent of Jews declared Polish as their first language in the national census of 1931, while 79 percent listed Yiddish and the remaining 9 percent Hebrew as their mother-tongue.[177] For hundreds of thousands of Jews the Polish language was barely familiar.[178] By contrast, the overwhelming majority of German Jews of this period spoke German as their first language.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Poland

    The German Jews, by contrast, were considered to be “more German than the Germans” and were largely concentrated in the big cities, with 1/3rd living in Berlin alone. The “Ostjuden” who emigrated to places like Berlin, Breslau, Leipzig, Frankfurt, etc, typically held them in contempt, and vice versa.

    It isn’t a coincidence that the Holocaust escalated in Poland-and would reach its climax with Barbarossa when the Wehrmacht hit the heart of the old Pale. Very few German soldiers likely had any contact with Orthodox, Yiddish speaking Ostjuden back in Germany, meaning that Nazi propaganda was highly effective.
     

    Yeah, even hardened Nazis tended to balk at the idea of treating German Jews in the same fashion as the Ostjuden. Cf, for example, Walter Kube:

    I wish to ask you personally for an official directive for the conduct of the civilian administration towards the Jews deported from Germany to Belorussia. Among these Jews are men who fought at the Front and have the Iron Cross, First and Second Class, war invalids, half-Aryans, even three-quarter Aryans. Up to now only 6,000 to 7,000 Jews have arrived, of the 25,000 who were expected. I am not aware what has become of the others. In the course of several visits to the Ghetto I noted that these Jews, who also differ from the Russian Jews in their personal cleanliness, are also skilled workers capable of doing five times as much in a day as the Russian Jews.
     

    I am certainly a hard [man] and willing to help solve the Jewish question, but people who come from our own cultural sphere just are not the same as the brutish hordes in this place. Is the slaughter to be carried out by the Lithuanians and Letts, who are themselves rejected by the population here? I couldn't do it. I beg you to give clear directives [in this matter], with due consideration for the good name of our Reich and our Party, in order that the necessary action can be taken in the most humane manner.
     
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/application-by-kube-generalkommissar-of-belorussia-to-lohse-concerning-the-condition-of-german-jews-in-minsk
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  210. @Jack D
    Encouragement wasn't always needed, especially in the Ukraine. In Lvov (Lemberg, Lviv, however you want to call it) the Ukrainians were so brutal that the Germans told them to tone it down a little. Poland wasn't usually that bad, but there were plenty of horrible things - Polish extortionists who would blackmail hidden Jews (and then turn them over to the Germans when they had extorted everything), Poles who would turn in Jews for a reward of a bag of sugar, etc. When the shit hits the fan you get to find out who your real friends are and they aren't always who you think they are, in either direction.

    Pre-war Poland was not like modern day America where anti-Semites usually feel the need to disguise their views in public - plenty (though by no means all or even most) Poles wore their anti-Semitism openly and proudly, as explicit planks of their right wing political platform. But as I said before, before the war the Jews, assisted by the Polish government (which, while in some ways anti-Semitic after the death of Pilsudski, was still committed to rule of law) were well able to hold their own until the Germans showed up. But Poland had plenty of native anti-Semites who didn't need encouragement from the Germans - license alone was quite sufficient.

    Huh? Wonder why Ukrainians hate Jews (aka Stalin’s Willing Executioners)?

    It’s a bloody mystery.

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  211. Thea says:
    @Eagle Eye
    Angela Merkel is a CIA stooge. Merkel's sudden opening of the floodgates to Muslim migrants after years of planning and preparatory groundwork was ably executed by Obama's CIA, but draws on long-standing, bipartisan Deep State planning.

    Draconian "hate speech" laws are now in effect in most European countries and enforced vigorously to ensure that the destruction of Europe will have become a fait accompli before any serious opposition has a chance to crystallize among the native populace. Counter-immigrant parties are actively undermined through tried-and-true secret service techniques.

    Team Trump is now on the fence as to whether to reverse course or continue with the bipartisan "program." China is watching from the sidelines, waiting for Eurasia to fall into its lap, and planning policies for absorbing Europe. The Muslims themselves are merely extras in a much larger "Great Game." Given the uneasy truce currently prevailing between the CIA and Trump, drastic changes are unlikely.

    How did the CIA come to be run by anti-American traitors? This goes back a while at least to Bush I who ran it and was clearly a globalist,

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  212. @Random Lurker
    I visited Poland earlier this year- not just Warsaw but smaller towns that rarely see tourists. The Poles I met were friendly and warm, even when I told them I was Jewish and there to see the homes fled by my great grandparents before the Holocaust.

    Poles’ nationalism stems not from ethnic hatred, but a justifiable wariness of occupation after Nazi Germany and the USSR. Screw The New York Times.

    Well-adjusted nations can be great neighbors and share great hospitality and kindness.

    It’s also essential that neighbors don’t meddle too much and make too many demands about how the neighbor should tend his garden.

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  213. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    This isn’t really about Diversity as a good or an ideal.

    It’s about Diversity as a tool of penetration.

    A homogeneous nationalist Poland is about unity and solidarity. Polish leaders represent and serve Polish people. So, there is a hard shell around Poland, and it’s not easy for outsiders to take over.

    Now, most people don’t care what Poles do since they don’t want to take over Poland or gain control of it. They see it as fine that Poles want to keep and control their nation.

    But globalists, mainly Jewish ones, do want to gain control over gentile nations.
    To break the shell and enter through the cracks, Diversity is useful. If Poles comes to see Diversity as an ideal, nationalist Poles and ‘prog’ Poles will be at loggerheads. And then, globalists can use the progs to boost ‘immigration’, and then the Prog Poles will side with newcomers against patriotic Poles deemed as ‘nazis’, and then, the young generation of Poles will be indoctrinated that Diversity Rules while nationalism sucks. This will lead to many cracks in the shell, and then, globalist influences can enter from all sides.

    Cracks are dangerous. Even a hairline fracture can fatally weaken the system under duress. And once a crack is visible, a wedge can be driven in, and then a little twist can make the whole thing break apart.

    Globalists don’t care if Poland has Muslims/Africans or not. That isn’t the central issue. Globalists want those foreigners inside Poland because they are useful as a wedge to crack it open so that globalist elites can take over the divided and fatally weakened system. Jewish globalists want to take over and control Poland. Since Jews don’t have the numbers, they need OTHERS to provide the numbers, and this is where ‘Diversity’ comes in. Also, Diversity will always divide the native population into pro-diversity group and pro-solidarity group. System can then be pried apart.

    Globalists see every nation as a coconut.

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  214. nebulafox says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus."

    This actually doesn't make much sense. Most Poles (proxy for white Europeans) can definitely distinguish an ethnically Muslim (mostly Mid. Eastern/North African) and an ethnically Buddhist (mostly Asian) from Jesus.

    A question to turn around would be, can NYT writers distinguish a Muslim or a Buddhist from Moses? That's a fair question in the same vein.

    Jesus probably looked like your typical Palestinian Jew of the day: prominent black or dark brown beard, olive skin, probably highly muscular given the fact that he was possibly impressed into service as a slave laborer for the Romans as a teenager, worked as a carpenter, and was a dynamic preacher in the wilderness.

    So, you could make a case for people confusing him with, say, a Lebanese Shi’a. But an African or a Chinese? (Or for that matter, a German?) Highly unlikely.

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    What the heck is this idea people have that all carpenters are giants or something? It shows up somewhere in Heinlein too. I mean, you must know actual carpenters. Don't they look like regular people to you? Heck, my grandfather who was a roofer and a construction foreman was smaller than his wife (who was about average-sized).

    Dynamic preachers: don't think Elmer Gantry, think Sai Baba.
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  215. nebulafox says:
    @anonymous
    Steve
    Interesting post and quite ironic. There are a lot of Polish immigrants in the UK and they are not very popular:
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/poland-shocked-xenophobic-abuse-poles-uk-160627105512611.html

    Maybe a surprise to some here but white isnt always white

    I would hazard a guess that deporting Mirpuri child rapists would be the first priority of a lot of British voters, nonetheless.

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  216. Twinkie says:

    The Mongols had their flaws, but at least they weren’t Christians.

    Many Mongols were Nestorian Christians, which contributed to the myth of Prester John.

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    IIRC the Nestorian Mongols were mostly crushed by Genghis. The ones whom the Europeans came into contact with came after, and weren't Christian.
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  217. utu says:
    @jane claire
    An interesting book I read once, I think it was called Vilna.
    Anyway, stories are told and retold and if your dad was a communist/socialist then the Poles did it. The point is there are a millions of reasons and stories of what happened, one for each. People say why do people fight in a war and then they argue over the reasons, but the facts are that each has his reason. The religious man will be prompted for or by his religion. the nationalist for his nation and people, the oligarch will start the war for power, the businessman will pick a side to sell products and wealth, the mother and father who tries to protect there children, the child born into revenge. There are lots of reasons that things happen the way they do and there are reasons why God set the world originally the way it was, but of course some people really just don't believe in that stuff.


    P.S
    I'm almost positive the Holocaust happened while the Jews were down south in America saving the blacks from slavery. You know once I mentioned to my daughter that white people helped blacks escape slavery and she was shocked and said "they did?"

    Great Anti-Semitic Pogrom in Przytyk: Poles started riot. ews in self-defense wounded 3 Poles. Then Poles intensified riot. One Pole was shot. And then two Jews were killed.

    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/this-day-in-jewish-history/1.707613

    March 9, 1936, is the date on which intercommunal violence between Jews and non-Jews in the Polish town of Przytyk led to the deaths of three people and the wounding of more than 20. Two of the dead were Jews, and one was a non-Jew.

    The incident is generally referred to by Jewish historians as the “Przytyk Pogrom,” although “riot” may be more fitting. Anti-Semitism was behind the series of events that led to the violence, but the violence itself was spontaneous, rather than a planned attack.

    The Endecjna (National Democracy) party was encouraging people to boycott Jewish-owned businesses, and to set up alternatives to them that would be owned by non-Jews. In response, some Jews flooded the market with products, pushing prices down to a level that made it hard for the newcomers to compete.

    Anticipating friction, the police beefed up their presence in Przytyk on March 9. They did manage to prevent significant confrontations throughout the morning, though there were cases of the market stalls of Jews being overturned

    By afternoon, however, matters got out of hand. A number of Jewish businesses were attacked, the Jewish defense group responded, and three non-Jews were wounded. Skirmishes turned into riots, and crowds began to attack Jewish-owned homes.

    At one point, when a mob began shattering the windows of a residence at 53 Warszawski Street, a defense league member living there fired into street from his window, killing a non-Jew, Stanislaw Wiesniak. In the ensuing chaos, a Jewish couple, Josek and Khaye Minkowski, were killed too.

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  218. syonredux says:
    @nebulafox
    Poland had a very different relationship with its Jews than Germany did. For one thing, the Jewish minority was much, much larger in Poland-10x larger than in Germany, at least. More importantly, it was much more traditional and generally tended to be segregated from their Polish neighbors in Yiddish speaking shtetls. Those in the cities lived in their own neighborhoods. To many Jews in Poland, the Polish language might as well have Mandarin, and vice versa. The German Jews, by contrast, were considered to be “more German than the Germans” and were largely concentrated in the big cities, with 1/3rd living in Berlin alone. The “Ostjuden” who emigrated to places like Berlin, Breslau, Leipzig, Frankfurt, etc, typically held them in contempt, and vice versa.


    It isn't a coincidence that the Holocaust escalated in Poland-and would reach its climax with Barbarossa when the Wehrmacht hit the heart of the old Pale. Very few German soldiers likely had any contact with Orthodox, Yiddish speaking Ostjuden back in Germany, meaning that Nazi propaganda was highly effective.

    Poland had a very different relationship with its Jews than Germany did.

    Yep.

    Only 12 percent of Jews declared Polish as their first language in the national census of 1931, while 79 percent listed Yiddish and the remaining 9 percent Hebrew as their mother-tongue.[177] For hundreds of thousands of Jews the Polish language was barely familiar.[178] By contrast, the overwhelming majority of German Jews of this period spoke German as their first language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Poland

    The German Jews, by contrast, were considered to be “more German than the Germans” and were largely concentrated in the big cities, with 1/3rd living in Berlin alone. The “Ostjuden” who emigrated to places like Berlin, Breslau, Leipzig, Frankfurt, etc, typically held them in contempt, and vice versa.

    It isn’t a coincidence that the Holocaust escalated in Poland-and would reach its climax with Barbarossa when the Wehrmacht hit the heart of the old Pale. Very few German soldiers likely had any contact with Orthodox, Yiddish speaking Ostjuden back in Germany, meaning that Nazi propaganda was highly effective.

    Yeah, even hardened Nazis tended to balk at the idea of treating German Jews in the same fashion as the Ostjuden. Cf, for example, Walter Kube:

    I wish to ask you personally for an official directive for the conduct of the civilian administration towards the Jews deported from Germany to Belorussia. Among these Jews are men who fought at the Front and have the Iron Cross, First and Second Class, war invalids, half-Aryans, even three-quarter Aryans. Up to now only 6,000 to 7,000 Jews have arrived, of the 25,000 who were expected. I am not aware what has become of the others. In the course of several visits to the Ghetto I noted that these Jews, who also differ from the Russian Jews in their personal cleanliness, are also skilled workers capable of doing five times as much in a day as the Russian Jews.

    I am certainly a hard [man] and willing to help solve the Jewish question, but people who come from our own cultural sphere just are not the same as the brutish hordes in this place. Is the slaughter to be carried out by the Lithuanians and Letts, who are themselves rejected by the population here? I couldn’t do it. I beg you to give clear directives [in this matter], with due consideration for the good name of our Reich and our Party, in order that the necessary action can be taken in the most humane manner.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/application-by-kube-generalkommissar-of-belorussia-to-lohse-concerning-the-condition-of-german-jews-in-minsk

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    His name was not Walter, it was Wilhelm. Despite his sympathy for German Jews, he was extremely cruel to the Ostjuden. His most famous quote is, "What plague and syphilis are to humanity, are Jews to the white race." On September 22, 1943 Kube was sent to a well deserved place in hell by a time bomb hidden in his mattress. The bomb was allegedly placed by Soviet partisan Yelena Mazanik (1914–1996), a Belarusian female who had managed to find employment in Kube's household as a maid to assassinate him. Mazanik escaped the reprisals and continued to fight with the partisans. She was later awarded the title Heroine of the Soviet Union. After the war she went on to become deputy director of the Fundamental Library of the Belarusian Academy of Sciences.
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  219. Jack D says:
    @jane claire
    An interesting book I read once, I think it was called Vilna.
    Anyway, stories are told and retold and if your dad was a communist/socialist then the Poles did it. The point is there are a millions of reasons and stories of what happened, one for each. People say why do people fight in a war and then they argue over the reasons, but the facts are that each has his reason. The religious man will be prompted for or by his religion. the nationalist for his nation and people, the oligarch will start the war for power, the businessman will pick a side to sell products and wealth, the mother and father who tries to protect there children, the child born into revenge. There are lots of reasons that things happen the way they do and there are reasons why God set the world originally the way it was, but of course some people really just don't believe in that stuff.


    P.S
    I'm almost positive the Holocaust happened while the Jews were down south in America saving the blacks from slavery. You know once I mentioned to my daughter that white people helped blacks escape slavery and she was shocked and said "they did?"

    My father was not a Communist, he was a simple fisherman whose only wish was to be left alone to catch his carp.

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  220. Importing Muslim antisemites into Poland would only finish what the Nazi and Communists tried, the destruction of Jewish life and lives in Poland.
    A small, but vocal, minority of the nationalists in the rally, were mentally-ill useful idiots of the communists as antisemites.

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  221. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    Poland had a very different relationship with its Jews than Germany did.
     
    Yep.

    Only 12 percent of Jews declared Polish as their first language in the national census of 1931, while 79 percent listed Yiddish and the remaining 9 percent Hebrew as their mother-tongue.[177] For hundreds of thousands of Jews the Polish language was barely familiar.[178] By contrast, the overwhelming majority of German Jews of this period spoke German as their first language.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Poland

    The German Jews, by contrast, were considered to be “more German than the Germans” and were largely concentrated in the big cities, with 1/3rd living in Berlin alone. The “Ostjuden” who emigrated to places like Berlin, Breslau, Leipzig, Frankfurt, etc, typically held them in contempt, and vice versa.

    It isn’t a coincidence that the Holocaust escalated in Poland-and would reach its climax with Barbarossa when the Wehrmacht hit the heart of the old Pale. Very few German soldiers likely had any contact with Orthodox, Yiddish speaking Ostjuden back in Germany, meaning that Nazi propaganda was highly effective.
     

    Yeah, even hardened Nazis tended to balk at the idea of treating German Jews in the same fashion as the Ostjuden. Cf, for example, Walter Kube:

    I wish to ask you personally for an official directive for the conduct of the civilian administration towards the Jews deported from Germany to Belorussia. Among these Jews are men who fought at the Front and have the Iron Cross, First and Second Class, war invalids, half-Aryans, even three-quarter Aryans. Up to now only 6,000 to 7,000 Jews have arrived, of the 25,000 who were expected. I am not aware what has become of the others. In the course of several visits to the Ghetto I noted that these Jews, who also differ from the Russian Jews in their personal cleanliness, are also skilled workers capable of doing five times as much in a day as the Russian Jews.
     

    I am certainly a hard [man] and willing to help solve the Jewish question, but people who come from our own cultural sphere just are not the same as the brutish hordes in this place. Is the slaughter to be carried out by the Lithuanians and Letts, who are themselves rejected by the population here? I couldn't do it. I beg you to give clear directives [in this matter], with due consideration for the good name of our Reich and our Party, in order that the necessary action can be taken in the most humane manner.
     
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/application-by-kube-generalkommissar-of-belorussia-to-lohse-concerning-the-condition-of-german-jews-in-minsk

    His name was not Walter, it was Wilhelm. Despite his sympathy for German Jews, he was extremely cruel to the Ostjuden. His most famous quote is, “What plague and syphilis are to humanity, are Jews to the white race.” On September 22, 1943 Kube was sent to a well deserved place in hell by a time bomb hidden in his mattress. The bomb was allegedly placed by Soviet partisan Yelena Mazanik (1914–1996), a Belarusian female who had managed to find employment in Kube’s household as a maid to assassinate him. Mazanik escaped the reprisals and continued to fight with the partisans. She was later awarded the title Heroine of the Soviet Union. After the war she went on to become deputy director of the Fundamental Library of the Belarusian Academy of Sciences.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    His name was not Walter, it was Wilhelm.
     
    Yeah, I recalled his name incorrectly.

    . Despite his sympathy for German Jews, he was extremely cruel to the Ostjuden.
     
    Well, yeah. That was my point.
    , @a reader

    His most famous quote is, “What plague and syphilis are to humanity, are Jews to the white race.”
     
    What a monstrosity !

    Did he in turn inspire this guy, who for some reason is remembered as "one of the most influential critics of her generation."
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  222. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    His name was not Walter, it was Wilhelm. Despite his sympathy for German Jews, he was extremely cruel to the Ostjuden. His most famous quote is, "What plague and syphilis are to humanity, are Jews to the white race." On September 22, 1943 Kube was sent to a well deserved place in hell by a time bomb hidden in his mattress. The bomb was allegedly placed by Soviet partisan Yelena Mazanik (1914–1996), a Belarusian female who had managed to find employment in Kube's household as a maid to assassinate him. Mazanik escaped the reprisals and continued to fight with the partisans. She was later awarded the title Heroine of the Soviet Union. After the war she went on to become deputy director of the Fundamental Library of the Belarusian Academy of Sciences.

    His name was not Walter, it was Wilhelm.

    Yeah, I recalled his name incorrectly.

    . Despite his sympathy for German Jews, he was extremely cruel to the Ostjuden.

    Well, yeah. That was my point.

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  223. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @jane claire
    An interesting book I read once, I think it was called Vilna.
    Anyway, stories are told and retold and if your dad was a communist/socialist then the Poles did it. The point is there are a millions of reasons and stories of what happened, one for each. People say why do people fight in a war and then they argue over the reasons, but the facts are that each has his reason. The religious man will be prompted for or by his religion. the nationalist for his nation and people, the oligarch will start the war for power, the businessman will pick a side to sell products and wealth, the mother and father who tries to protect there children, the child born into revenge. There are lots of reasons that things happen the way they do and there are reasons why God set the world originally the way it was, but of course some people really just don't believe in that stuff.


    P.S
    I'm almost positive the Holocaust happened while the Jews were down south in America saving the blacks from slavery. You know once I mentioned to my daughter that white people helped blacks escape slavery and she was shocked and said "they did?"

    Not really. Wars are fought for territory or resources, except maybe for the bloody borders of Islam. Also, violence and war are different things.

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  224. demel says: • Website

    Good discussion. And Poland is so anti-Semitic that today a guy got jail time there, primarily for making anti-Semitic comments…

    http://wroclawuncut.com/2017/11/16/piotr-rybak-bound-for-prison-after-breaking-house-arrest-terms/

    Piotr Rybak In Prison After Breaking House Arrest Terms
    Posted by: Gregor Gowans in News November 16, 2017

    Having successfully fought for his prison sentence to be downgraded to 3 months of electronic tagging, Piotr Rybak will now spend the next couple of months behind bars.
    For those not familiar with Rybak, he is an important figure in the Wrocław division of the ultra nationalist group the ONR.
    In November 2015 Piotr Rybak infamously burned an effigy of a Jew on the Rynek, which resulted in him being charged with the public incitement of hatred based on national, ethnic, racial and religious differences.
    After almost two years of legal wrangling, Rybak and his legal team managed to get his prison sentence reduced from 10 months to 3 months. The 3 month jail term was then downgraded to electronic tagging last month.

    Under the terms of his 3 month sentence of electronic tagging, Rybak was merely required to show “absolute observance of applicable legal norms” and stay at home from 7pm-9am.
    However, despite making it home from Saturday’s nationalist march just in time, the courts have decided that Rybak is still guilty of breaking the conditions of his house arrest.
    According to Gazeta Wyborcza, the court’s patience finally broke after Rybak continued to walk a fine line with his behaviour and comments about Jews.
    Only minutes after avoiding a prison sentence, Rybak recorded a video with his close friend Jacek Międlar outside Wrocław’s White Stork Synagogoue. During the short clip he was heard saying “We wish all Lefties and Jews today would go to the nearest pharmacy and buy pills with coal, because it works better.”
    Rybak then took part in the nationalist march on November the 11th, during which he was accused of making hate-filled chants alongside Międlar.
    Rybak was also seen criticising the Polish President and his wife on a Twitter video. During his tirade he called President Duda “pro-Ukrainian” and labelled his wife “Jewish”. He then said that the Jews in Poland “should drive to Israel”.
    Police are reported to have arrested Rybak in his home at 9pm yesterday. He was then taken to a police detention centre. This morning he was transferred to a prison on Świebodzka street, where he will likely spend the rest of his 3 month sentence behind bars.

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    • Replies: @Lex
    I wonder how they react in Israel to insults towards Polish people(like Radwańska sisters).
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  225. But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.

    What an incredibly offensive thing to say, substitute “Poles” with just about any protective class out there (IE Hispanic, Haitian, Vietnamese) and see the reaction. The double standard strikes again, currently India is building a wall with Bangladesh and banning and deporting Rohingya illegal migrants. Where is the outrage from the NYT? I’m not saying India has no right to do the aforementioned, I just wish the NYT would exercise some consistency every once in a while.

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    • Replies: @a reader
    For some time already, we are subjected to daily sob stories and reports, be it in the NYT or French media.
    Muslim Rohingyas are powerless victims (who merely attack police stations), while Buddhist Burmese are bloodthirsty oppressors. (remind you some pattern ?)

    This bodes not well for the future of Myanmar.
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  226. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @nebulafox
    Jesus probably looked like your typical Palestinian Jew of the day: prominent black or dark brown beard, olive skin, probably highly muscular given the fact that he was possibly impressed into service as a slave laborer for the Romans as a teenager, worked as a carpenter, and was a dynamic preacher in the wilderness.

    So, you could make a case for people confusing him with, say, a Lebanese Shi'a. But an African or a Chinese? (Or for that matter, a German?) Highly unlikely.

    What the heck is this idea people have that all carpenters are giants or something? It shows up somewhere in Heinlein too. I mean, you must know actual carpenters. Don’t they look like regular people to you? Heck, my grandfather who was a roofer and a construction foreman was smaller than his wife (who was about average-sized).

    Dynamic preachers: don’t think Elmer Gantry, think Sai Baba.

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  227. @attilathehen
    Again, this problem can be solved by cuck pope Frannie stating that Islam is a Christian heresy and does not belong in Europe. The next problems to be solved would the blacks/Asians in the Western churches and the West.

    As for the Jews, that problem can easily be solved by collapsing the Zioevangizers in the USA.

    Here is what our rulers want for us: (((Stefan Molyneux))) - his mother was a German Jewess who fled Germany when Hitler took over. Even though he was sent to Christian schools, it is obvious with whom he identifies. You can hear his comments at the 24 and 56 minute marks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FduYWW-7cEM

    Western peoples who have Western nations are to give them up, be persecuted and then will be reborn. That's chutzpah. Of course the Jews and Northeast Asians Molyneux says are superior to Westerners will help in this rebirth.

    If Stefan Molyneux is Jewish, he has never said so to my knowledge. On some shows he has mentioned that he has an affinity to Germany because is half-German. I thought he gave some insightful advice by advocating that European Gentiles start emulating Jews as opposed to being scornful.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    I've heard him say he was. Also someone a couple of months ago posted a link where he gave a speech in Toronto talking about his Jewish mother and their family.

    But let's say that if he's not Jewish, he is wrong in saying Jews are the smartest tribe ever.

    He's not a Zioevangizer so his semitophilia needs explaining. He's Jewish.
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  228. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @nebulafox
    I can't speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused to unload ships for the Polish Army in 1920. The mutual cooperation between the Red Army and the Reichswehr in the 1920s was based off of destroying Poland.

    I can’t speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused to unload ships for the Polish Army in 1920.

    And there was a good reason for that. The German workers in Danzig felt their city was still part of Germany and did not support the treaty that separated it from German rule.

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    • Replies: @utu
    Nonsense. It was not ethnic or nationality issue. It was communist agitation among trade unions. The same happened among dock workers and railway workers in other countries. They all wanted the Bolshevik armies to bring the communist paradise to them.
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  229. @(((Owen)))

    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland’s population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles?
     
    "The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils."

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles. They had 21 inter-war years to industrialize and re-arm themselves. The Bolsheviks were glaringly intent upon expansion and conquest from the beginning and the Germans were as well in the 1930s. And the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today's Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.

    But ethnic squabbles, elite infighting, squalid traditional feudal economies, and jockeying for status absorbed the potential of the Polish nation. They had every opportunity to unify, invest, and grow by open trade, land reform, and dissolving cartels and monopolies with free competition. They could have invested in schools, roads, and universities. But they did not; it was more important to keep elites powerful than to create wealth.

    And the poor—but stably hierarchical—Poland had no ability to defend against the Nazis and Soviets. So 20% of Poles died, including nearly every single one of the Jews. Non-Communist Party elites were mostly murdered or imprisoned. And the communists didn't do so hot either.

    But they had time and opportunity to avoid their own destruction. It was plainly coming and gave abundant warning. And they did nothing.

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.

    Just as America and western Europe deserve 100% of the blame for what is happening to them today. It's not the Moslem and African invaders that are ruining them. They're ruining themselves. They have been given abundant warning. And they are doing nothing to stop it.

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles.

    Oh come on, victim blaming? Really, you should re-examine your premises.

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  230. @Big Bill
    You cannot be an official "righteous among the gentile" if you asked for money or anything. Yad Vashem, which officially certifies all the Righteous Among the Gentiles for the Jewish Nation, is pretty darned strict.

    If you were a WWII gentile fisherman and were smuggling Jews out of Germany at night [read: death sentence], asking them if they had money so you could get gas for the boat invalidates you.

    If you were sheltering Jews in your barn [read: death sentence] and asked them for money to help buy food in the village also invalidates you.

    The Jews are real strict on how righteous gentiles have to be. Even if your life was on the line, asking the Jews you are trying to save to contribute to their own salvation means that you risked your life for money.

    I think we should establish a Righteous Among the Jews and a Righteous Among the Negroes award for all those many Jews and Negroes who risk their own lives and the lives of their families to save white Christians.

    Absolutely libelous. One could still be righteous among the gentiles if one took money, but only that needed to cover expenses, not to profit as a black marketer.

    “No material reward or substantial compensation was exacted by the rescuer from the rescued as a condition for extending aid.”

    http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFA-Archive/2003/Pages/The%20Righteous%20Among%20the%20Nations.aspx

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  231. utu says:
    @anonymous

    I can’t speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused to unload ships for the Polish Army in 1920.
     
    And there was a good reason for that. The German workers in Danzig felt their city was still part of Germany and did not support the treaty that separated it from German rule.

    Nonsense. It was not ethnic or nationality issue. It was communist agitation among trade unions. The same happened among dock workers and railway workers in other countries. They all wanted the Bolshevik armies to bring the communist paradise to them.

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Danzig was an overwhelmingly German city that wanted to remain in Germany. It was all about nationality in the case of Danzig-with the major exceptions of Saxony and of course, Greater Berlin, the Communists tended to far weaker in the East Elbian regions of the Reich.

    The Bolsheviks in Moscow were merely seen as a means to an end as far as Poland was concerned for many Germans, whether it was the proles in Ohra or the high command of the Reichswehr back in Berlin, who were busy setting up a highly fruitful cooperation with the Red Army that would last until the Nazis took power. And Stalin-who detested Poles-would have been all too happy to keep the military alliance going had Hitler not come along and unilaterally terminated everything, in favor of a volte face toward Poland that would last until 1939.

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  232. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Half of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Poles. …
     
    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland's population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles? Is Jan Gross ignorant, malicious or, more likely, both?

    The author’s Polish Christian mother was one of those selfless Christian Europeans who risked her life to save his Jewish father’s life during WWII. And this is the gratitude that he returns both to Christians and Poles. She should’ve had an abortion.

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  233. AP says:
    @Jack D
    They certainly got worse for Polish fascists and for many of them it was well deserved that things got worse for them.

    But, it is really not necessary for me to list the evil deeds of Stalin. He was no better in Poland than he was elsewhere. There are volumes filled with his murderous deeds - you are not fooling anyone by pretending otherwise. The Russians took Poland not out of any altruism but because Stalin wanted it for himself. I am not going to defend the Communists any more than I defend the Nazis. A pox on both their houses.

    The Russians took Poland not out of any altruism but because Stalin wanted it for himself.

    An appropriate analogy would be – Poland was saved from a sadistic serial killer by a brutal rapist who locked her in his basement for decades. Whose apologists then demand that Poland be grateful for having been saved from death.

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  234. polaco says:
    @Jason Liu
    The Law & Justice party should continue their efforts to gain full control over the Polish judiciary, don't let a few dipshits stop you.

    The justice system in PL is corrupt to the core, it’s grown like cancer through the decades. Before WWII the situation was different, most lawyers, judges, and prosecutors came from the upper social strata, had solid educational background, were principled, ethical, Catholic and patriotic with impeccable manners or at least knew those values were expected of them. These people were systematically and meticulously attacked on all sides so that no respectable person remained in practice after the war, Russians begun installing their lackeys recruited from the lowest social classes, anti-Catholic, anti-polish, without a moral code, criminal communist personalities, oafs; they had mostly fake degrees obtained through “accelerated” courses the Communist party offered them at specially created institutions. There were many Jews in high positions, like the infamous Helena Wolinska whose job was to prosecute polish patriots. Even now you essentially can’t be admitted to the bar unless you have an advocate in your family, outsiders aren’t welcome and they’d better not try. Now the grandchildren of these people are running the show, and they’re still morally degenerate louts. Judges often seem to side with criminals with whom they empathize and have a lot in common philosophically, they openly flaunt victims seeking justice. Judges dictate to court reporters what to write in the transcript, if you protest they yell at you like at a communist show trial, attorneys work against clients when it’s in their interest. The judges’ approval is at around 30%. In the city of Bialystok in north eastern Poland, which incidentally has the largest Russian minority in the country, about three quarters of the judges of the appellate court are relatives. So you get a sense of what the Law and Justice party is up against. Needless to say, the Constitutional Tribunal was created during the martial law in the eighties by general Jaruzelski, to give the stamp of approval to the military and dismiss anyone who tried to point to whatever legal protection the communist Constitution offered.

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  235. nebulafox says:
    @utu
    Nonsense. It was not ethnic or nationality issue. It was communist agitation among trade unions. The same happened among dock workers and railway workers in other countries. They all wanted the Bolshevik armies to bring the communist paradise to them.

    Danzig was an overwhelmingly German city that wanted to remain in Germany. It was all about nationality in the case of Danzig-with the major exceptions of Saxony and of course, Greater Berlin, the Communists tended to far weaker in the East Elbian regions of the Reich.

    The Bolsheviks in Moscow were merely seen as a means to an end as far as Poland was concerned for many Germans, whether it was the proles in Ohra or the high command of the Reichswehr back in Berlin, who were busy setting up a highly fruitful cooperation with the Red Army that would last until the Nazis took power. And Stalin-who detested Poles-would have been all too happy to keep the military alliance going had Hitler not come along and unilaterally terminated everything, in favor of a volte face toward Poland that would last until 1939.

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    One really odd quirk of history: unlike the Prussian generals, Hitler's origins as an Austrian meant that his anti-Slavic racism was generally directed against Czechs, not Poles. This showed in his pre-1939 foreign policy. He couldn't have cared less if some Junkers lost their estates in West Prussia-his plans weren't meant for *them*. It was his deep seated aversion to normality that made him realize he had a better chance of seizing Moscow than Bromberg, as early as the Landsberg period.

    Yet the occupation of Poland would be infinitely more brutal than the one in Czechoslovakia, and it would be Poland that was the real testing ground for the institutionalized racial megalomania that would come into full force in the USSR. By contrast, with the exception of a couple of Table Talk conversations and the aftermath of Heydrich's assassination, Hitler seemed to become completely indifferent (if you can count not having Generalplan Ost as a long term goal for all Slavs as indifferent) to Czechs after he occupied Prague. Kind of shows you how weird and random Hitler's mind was. The mere act of defying him, or even the optics of doing so, whether before or during the occupation, seemed to stimulate him into a frenzy. Like a spoiled child. A lot of people don't seem to often get just what an antisocial outcast Hitler was in life, to a degree that none of his contemporaries (dictatorial or otherwise) in history can match.

    , @utu
    Germany and Reichswehr certainly had no desire to see Bolsheviks into Poland and possibly further west into Germany where German communists were ready to revolt and join arms with Bolsheviks. Boycott of Poland was instigated by communists all over Europe. Supplies of weapon for Poland could not pass Germany and Czechoslovakia. In UK trade unions threatened the general strike if weapons were to be sent to Poland. I am sure that there were Germans at that time who wished Poland ill and the defeat to stoke their Schadenfreude but they were the stupid ones who understood nothing.
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  236. nebulafox says:
    @nebulafox
    Danzig was an overwhelmingly German city that wanted to remain in Germany. It was all about nationality in the case of Danzig-with the major exceptions of Saxony and of course, Greater Berlin, the Communists tended to far weaker in the East Elbian regions of the Reich.

    The Bolsheviks in Moscow were merely seen as a means to an end as far as Poland was concerned for many Germans, whether it was the proles in Ohra or the high command of the Reichswehr back in Berlin, who were busy setting up a highly fruitful cooperation with the Red Army that would last until the Nazis took power. And Stalin-who detested Poles-would have been all too happy to keep the military alliance going had Hitler not come along and unilaterally terminated everything, in favor of a volte face toward Poland that would last until 1939.

    One really odd quirk of history: unlike the Prussian generals, Hitler’s origins as an Austrian meant that his anti-Slavic racism was generally directed against Czechs, not Poles. This showed in his pre-1939 foreign policy. He couldn’t have cared less if some Junkers lost their estates in West Prussia-his plans weren’t meant for *them*. It was his deep seated aversion to normality that made him realize he had a better chance of seizing Moscow than Bromberg, as early as the Landsberg period.

    Yet the occupation of Poland would be infinitely more brutal than the one in Czechoslovakia, and it would be Poland that was the real testing ground for the institutionalized racial megalomania that would come into full force in the USSR. By contrast, with the exception of a couple of Table Talk conversations and the aftermath of Heydrich’s assassination, Hitler seemed to become completely indifferent (if you can count not having Generalplan Ost as a long term goal for all Slavs as indifferent) to Czechs after he occupied Prague. Kind of shows you how weird and random Hitler’s mind was. The mere act of defying him, or even the optics of doing so, whether before or during the occupation, seemed to stimulate him into a frenzy. Like a spoiled child. A lot of people don’t seem to often get just what an antisocial outcast Hitler was in life, to a degree that none of his contemporaries (dictatorial or otherwise) in history can match.

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  237. poland is an idea nation.

    poland must contend with sweden in the marketplace of idea nations.

    the whole world can be polish if they have that orientation.

    except israel must remain a jewish state.

    because holocaust.

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  238. polaco says: • Website
    @Jack D
    They certainly got worse for Polish fascists and for many of them it was well deserved that things got worse for them.

    But, it is really not necessary for me to list the evil deeds of Stalin. He was no better in Poland than he was elsewhere. There are volumes filled with his murderous deeds - you are not fooling anyone by pretending otherwise. The Russians took Poland not out of any altruism but because Stalin wanted it for himself. I am not going to defend the Communists any more than I defend the Nazis. A pox on both their houses.

    The “polish fascist” you’re talking about, that were viciously persecuted after the war by Russians, were actually people who resisted the Nazis the most, so as new occupants, the Russians assumed correctly that they would resist them as well and focused their attention on those “troublemakers”. Calling them fascists you sound like a Russian TV set, they label their perceived enemies Nazis and fascists, just like the left wing terrorists in the West whom Russia supported and lead in the sixties and seventies that now took on a life of their own and even turn against her.

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    • Agree: utu
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  239. @Perspective
    If Stefan Molyneux is Jewish, he has never said so to my knowledge. On some shows he has mentioned that he has an affinity to Germany because is half-German. I thought he gave some insightful advice by advocating that European Gentiles start emulating Jews as opposed to being scornful.

    I’ve heard him say he was. Also someone a couple of months ago posted a link where he gave a speech in Toronto talking about his Jewish mother and their family.

    But let’s say that if he’s not Jewish, he is wrong in saying Jews are the smartest tribe ever.

    He’s not a Zioevangizer so his semitophilia needs explaining. He’s Jewish.

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  240. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    I wonder whether the alliterative phrase "a million marching men" in the first sentence is an allusion to
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

    Excellent Golden Age sci-fi reference!

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  241. @George
    "Angela Merkel’s sudden whim of inviting a million marching men"

    They didn't ask permission. After more than a decade of war the refugee numbers in Turkey swelled to the point they overflowed.

    But they were GIVEN permission. Not a single Heckler&Koch fired. Not a single Leopard tank rolled.

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  242. Issac says:
    @(((Owen)))

    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland’s population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles?
     
    "The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils."

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles. They had 21 inter-war years to industrialize and re-arm themselves. The Bolsheviks were glaringly intent upon expansion and conquest from the beginning and the Germans were as well in the 1930s. And the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today's Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.

    But ethnic squabbles, elite infighting, squalid traditional feudal economies, and jockeying for status absorbed the potential of the Polish nation. They had every opportunity to unify, invest, and grow by open trade, land reform, and dissolving cartels and monopolies with free competition. They could have invested in schools, roads, and universities. But they did not; it was more important to keep elites powerful than to create wealth.

    And the poor—but stably hierarchical—Poland had no ability to defend against the Nazis and Soviets. So 20% of Poles died, including nearly every single one of the Jews. Non-Communist Party elites were mostly murdered or imprisoned. And the communists didn't do so hot either.

    But they had time and opportunity to avoid their own destruction. It was plainly coming and gave abundant warning. And they did nothing.

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.

    Just as America and western Europe deserve 100% of the blame for what is happening to them today. It's not the Moslem and African invaders that are ruining them. They're ruining themselves. They have been given abundant warning. And they are doing nothing to stop it.

    By this logic all of our own ancestors who failed to flee Europe deserved their deaths too. What a morally repugnant screed.

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  243. @Charles Pewitt
    Jan Sobieski defeated the invading Turkish Muslims at Vienna in 1683. Some Princeton twat named Gross attacks the Poles in 2017 for resisting being swamped by Muslims and other foreigners of all kinds. The town of Princeton is mostly White and most of its Black residents are the famous Black squirrels who live there.

    This video portion of an Italian/Polish movie about the Battle of Vienna shows the Poles defending Vienna against the invading Muslim Turks. The Poles use a massive cavalry charge to decimate the Turks. Some of the Polish cavalrymen go into battle wearing wings and using a pike weapon that has a wooden handle and a metal tip. The metal tip detaches after the cavalryman skewers a Turkish Muslim.

    The Polish cavalry charge starts at about 4 minutes into the video:

    https://youtu.be/X8zCv0AHnCs

    And they also saved a prostrate Europe from Bolshevism by defeating the Red Army 1n 1920. If the USSR had militarily linked up with revolutionary communist governments in Bavaria and Hungary, it would have been a brave new world, indeed.

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  244. AP says:
    @Twinkie

    The Mongols had their flaws, but at least they weren’t Christians.
     
    Many Mongols were Nestorian Christians, which contributed to the myth of Prester John.

    IIRC the Nestorian Mongols were mostly crushed by Genghis. The ones whom the Europeans came into contact with came after, and weren’t Christian.

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    • Replies: @AP
    This doesn't contradict what you wrote, of course.
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  245. polaco says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Spend 5 minutes listening to Radio Maria.

    There’s nothing antisemitic in their programming. Totally zero. If they were they wouldn’t even get a license to broadcast. Any thinking person realizes this. Radio Maryja has been under attack by the left since inception. Particularly by the Gazeta Wyborcza, the preeminent leftist rag, which used to be the largest newspaper in circulation until peoples’ eyes have opened and now it’s struggling. It’s longtime editor in chief, now retired, was one Adam Michnik, a jew whose real name is Schechter and whose half brother Stefan, a Stalinist prosecutor, lives in exile in Sweden and has successfully fought off several extradition attempts by Poland to bring him to justice for his crimes. His line of defense was of course that notorious polish antisemitism which would joeperdize any chance of having a fair trial.

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  246. @Anon
    OT, except the guy’s last name sounds Polish:

    Last year, I posted this article about a high school running back who was passed over by big schools because he is white.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/high-school-football/2016/10/21/Why-doesn-t-Zane-Dudek-have-major-college-scholarship-offers/stories/201610210047

    Well, now he’s at Yale and doing fantastic. As a true freshman, he has 1069 yards and 14 TDs at 8 yards per carry. Tomorrow Yale plays Harvard on CNBC at noon if you need further confirmation that he definitely was good enough to play at a major school if he were black.

    On the other hand, for him, going to Yale isn’t such a bad alternative to fighting for carries at a major football school. I hear Yale might even have some distinguished alumni, some of whom would presumably help him find a remunerative job that doesn’t involve getting his head bashed in by 250 pound linebackers. If not, there’s always the Patriots.

    Surprised USAFA or Navy didn’t go for him. They have a history of allowing white guys to play running back. Ditto Stanford, although he might be a little small for the PAC-12. SMU had a stud YT at RB a couple years ago, too, but everybody else in FBS pretends that whites can’t carry the ball. The story of Hunter Furr at North Carolina was a typical travesty of reverse-racism in college football. Glad this kid landed on his feet.

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  247. @Peter Akuleyev
    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn't spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.

    Where the article (and Sailer) is really off base is crediting immmigration fears with putting PiS in power. The former ruling party was also against immigration, just in a quieter Czech sort of way. PiS won for old fashioned populist reasons - they promised people 500 zloty a month for child support and rode a wave of popular anger at the corruption of Platform. People voted for PiS because they were angry at seeing the children of former Communists get rich in business. PiS was voted in by the losers - old people, rural people and young people who can't speak English and won't get jobs in finance or high-tech start ups in Cracow or Poznan. Very few Poles of any political stripe are "pro" Muslim immigration the way German or American leftists are. If Merkel were anti immigration PiS would just find another way to persuade Poles Germans are bad.

    Toughski shitski.

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  248. Cyrano says:
    @RadicalCenter
    Compare the New Testament to the koran and it shouldn't be hard to answer your own rather question.

    If your hatred of catholics or the RC Church is strong enough to make you try to conflate Catholicism with islam, you should step back and consider that is rational or healthy.

    And I say that as someone who has left the RC Church.

    The only difference between a Catholic and a Muslim is that a Catholic believes that his religion makes him more civilized – and thus a better person, while a Muslim believes that his religion makes him a better person.

    There is only one extra step that Catholics take to reach the conclusion that their religion makes them better. They are both wrong. Religion doesn’t make anyone better if all the other indicators for humaneness are coming up empty.

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    • Replies: @Anemone

    The only difference between Islam and Catholicism...
     
    Although after having read your past comments you stroke me as mildly retarded, this last display of laziness, arrogance and sheer ignorance puts you in, eyeballing here, the top 10000 percentile of UNZs most brutish and simplistic comments, and I have to assume that you must probably be 12 years old.

    And this comes from an atheist reader, in favor of outlawing the initiation and teaching of religion to minors.

    Bravo Cyrano!

    Now go and read a bit (a lot) before commenting on things you obviously have no idea about and form an informed and balanced opinion before even thinking to touch that keyboard again to nauseate the readership with your mental droppings.
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  249. Cyrano says:
    @Anon

    Believing in your particular brand of religion, on the other hand, makes you an a**hole.
     
    Would that make you Exhibit #1?

    No, but you look like a prime candidate to fill that spot.

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  250. AP says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.
     
    Actually that's total bullshit.

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.

    Actually that’s total bullshit.

    Poland certainly isn’t antisemitic by Muslim or Nazi standards, they don’t advocate harming Jews, nor do they justify or support pogroms or anti-Jewish terrorism; rather Poles tend to be very non-PC about Jews, noticing and openly discussing stuff like clannishness or Jewish successes. In Poland, I’ve heard several Poles comment about how physically unattractive they view Jews to be. I remember an American visitor being shocked at hearing such comments.

    As victims of Nazi atrocities themselves, Poles also tend not to place World War II-era Jews on a victim pedestal relative to themselves, emphasizing their own suffering, which may be off-putting to some Jewish visitors.

    Read More
    • Replies: @a reader
    In any case, no discussion of Poland's alleged anti-semitism is complete without mentioning the Arenda system.

    (For some reason the Wikipedia article is only available in French.)

    Here are some well-documented versions in English. (must be read carefully)

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  251. AP says:
    @AP
    IIRC the Nestorian Mongols were mostly crushed by Genghis. The ones whom the Europeans came into contact with came after, and weren't Christian.

    This doesn’t contradict what you wrote, of course.

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  252. Mr. Anon says:
    @Tiny Duck
    You people support pedophiles like Roy Moore and that is one of the many reasons you will lose badly in the future.

    Just complete moral bankruptcy

    Leonard Pitts has great commentary on this

    Leonard Pitts has great commentary on this

    Undoubtedly better than yours, that’s for sure.

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  253. Clap your peepers on this bit of lefty globohomo madness:

    If this came to pass, my money’s on Poland.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "This is what democracy looks like!"
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  254. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @SteveRogers42
    Clap your peepers on this bit of lefty globohomo madness:

    http://i.magaimg.net/img/1ujo.jpg

    If this came to pass, my money's on Poland.

    “This is what democracy looks like!”

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  255. a reader says:
    @Pat Casey

    Poland actually is a very anti-Semitic country, even today. I work there, I hear anti Semitic remarks all the time. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are very few Jews left for them to be anti-Semitic too, but it is hardly surprising that a devoutly Catholic nationalist Polish government is going to be viewed very unfavorably by American Jews. I wouldn’t spend time in Poland today if I were Jewish.
     
    The following is a significant episode in the living memory of Poland and marked a resurgence of anti-Semitism there. (Recounted by philo-semite George Weigel, still it's not hard to see the Jews brought it on themselves.)

    The Auschwitz convent controversy was one of the most painful and unedifying of the late twentieth century. In late 1984, a small community of Carmelite nuns, whose stated purpose was to give up their lives in prayerful reparation for what had been done to the Jews, had moved into an abandoned building on the border of the concentration camp---Auschwitz I, as it was known, in distinction from the extermination camp at Birkenau, known as Auschwitz II. Protests from Jewish leaders followed.... By the summer of 1989, the situation had once again reached a boiling point, with frequently strident charges and countercharges. The Carmelites were not inclined to leave; nationalistically inclined Polish Catholics saw the international Jewish protests against the convent as an attack on Catholicism itself; Jewish protests at the convent site triggered counter-protests by local Poles and further exacerbated tensions. On July 14, 1989, seven Jews wearing striped concentration camp uniforms and led by New York Rabbi Avraham Weiss climbed over the convent fence and began banging on the convent's doors and windows, demanding that the nuns abandon the convent. Construction workers making repairs on the second floor of the building dumped water on Weiss and his followers and eventually dragged them away from the site. The police nearby, who had done nothing to stop the demonstrators, did nothing to stop the workers, either, nor did the nuns and a priest who was present. Weiss said that the police had turned their back on Jews "just like your Church did 50 years ago." Two days later, Weiss's group was allowed into the courtyard of the Metropolitan Curia at Francszkanska, in Krakow, where they tacked an appeal to Cardinal Macharski on the door, stating that they had come in peace but saying that "as proud Jews we announce---stop praying for the Jews who were killed in the Shoah, let them rest in peace as Jews." At a later meeting with an archdiocesan official, Weiss's group charged that the Catholic Church sought to "remove the Jewish character of the Shoah and give it a Christian character." Weiss and his group returned to the convent the same day, climbed over the fence again, and staged a six-hour demonstration.... By 1993, despite completion of the new center, the nuns had not yet moved. With new protests mounting and some Jewish groups threatening to boycott the mid-April commemoration of of the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, John Paul II intervened again, with a personal letter to the Carmelites....
     

    Yet one more incomprehensible mystery: a Roman Catholic cardinal fought tooth and nail to have a Catholic convent removed from Auschwitz.

    (French] Cardinal [Jean-Marie] Lustiger gained recognition after negotiating in 1987 with representatives of the organized Jewish community (including Théo Klein, the former president of the CRIF)[17] the departure of the Carmelite nuns who built a convent in Auschwitz concentration camp (see Auschwitz cross).[2][6]

    Jean-Marie Lustiger

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    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    a reader:

    On Cardinal Lustier's death an Orthodox Jewish friend pronounced that he was neither a good Jew nor a good Catholic.
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  256. Moses says:
    @snorlax

    The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach), also referred to as the Noahide Laws or the Noachide Laws (from the English transliteration of the Hebrew pronunciation of "Noah"), are a set of imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God [1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]

    Accordingly, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws because they were given by Moses[4] is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[5][6]

    The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated are the following:[7]

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to curse God.
    To establish courts of justice.
    Not to commit murder.
    Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
    Not to steal.
    Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
     
    In seriousness it's a bit much to be offended that the Israeli Holocaust memorial foundation recognizes Gentiles who saved Jews from the Holocaust.

    In seriousness it’s a bit much to be offended that the Israeli Holocaust memorial foundation recognizes Gentiles who saved Jews from the Holocaust.

    Fair enough and a reasonable comment. That wasn’t my point though.

    My point was that Jews seem to measure *everything* by the yardstick of the positive/negative impact on their group, i.e. “Is it good for the Jews?” Nothing else matters for them.

    Nothing wrong with that. Just calling it out. We Whites can learn from the Jews.

    As another commenter pointed out on these boards a few weeks ago — In diversity America “We’re all Jews now.” Act like it.

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  257. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @nebulafox
    I can't speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused to unload ships for the Polish Army in 1920. The mutual cooperation between the Red Army and the Reichswehr in the 1920s was based off of destroying Poland.

    I can’t speak for the Jews, but I do know that ethnic German portworkers in Danzig refused ….

    Well since the topic was why are the Poles anti-semitic, it’s immaterial what the Germans did or did not do in 1920. During the Soviet-Polish war of 1920, the Soviets put Jews in charge of Polish territories taken by the Red Army. Maybe watching their Jewish neighbors willingly cooperate with their enemy played some role in how the Polish nationalists of the 1930s felt towards Polish Jews.

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  258. utu says:
    @nebulafox
    Danzig was an overwhelmingly German city that wanted to remain in Germany. It was all about nationality in the case of Danzig-with the major exceptions of Saxony and of course, Greater Berlin, the Communists tended to far weaker in the East Elbian regions of the Reich.

    The Bolsheviks in Moscow were merely seen as a means to an end as far as Poland was concerned for many Germans, whether it was the proles in Ohra or the high command of the Reichswehr back in Berlin, who were busy setting up a highly fruitful cooperation with the Red Army that would last until the Nazis took power. And Stalin-who detested Poles-would have been all too happy to keep the military alliance going had Hitler not come along and unilaterally terminated everything, in favor of a volte face toward Poland that would last until 1939.

    Germany and Reichswehr certainly had no desire to see Bolsheviks into Poland and possibly further west into Germany where German communists were ready to revolt and join arms with Bolsheviks. Boycott of Poland was instigated by communists all over Europe. Supplies of weapon for Poland could not pass Germany and Czechoslovakia. In UK trade unions threatened the general strike if weapons were to be sent to Poland. I am sure that there were Germans at that time who wished Poland ill and the defeat to stoke their Schadenfreude but they were the stupid ones who understood nothing.

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  259. Dan Hayes says:
    @a reader
    Yet one more incomprehensible mystery: a Roman Catholic cardinal fought tooth and nail to have a Catholic convent removed from Auschwitz.


    (French] Cardinal [Jean-Marie] Lustiger gained recognition after negotiating in 1987 with representatives of the organized Jewish community (including Théo Klein, the former president of the CRIF)[17] the departure of the Carmelite nuns who built a convent in Auschwitz concentration camp (see Auschwitz cross).[2][6]
     
    Jean-Marie Lustiger

    a reader:

    On Cardinal Lustier’s death an Orthodox Jewish friend pronounced that he was neither a good Jew nor a good Catholic.

    Read More
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  260. a reader says:
    @Jack D
    His name was not Walter, it was Wilhelm. Despite his sympathy for German Jews, he was extremely cruel to the Ostjuden. His most famous quote is, "What plague and syphilis are to humanity, are Jews to the white race." On September 22, 1943 Kube was sent to a well deserved place in hell by a time bomb hidden in his mattress. The bomb was allegedly placed by Soviet partisan Yelena Mazanik (1914–1996), a Belarusian female who had managed to find employment in Kube's household as a maid to assassinate him. Mazanik escaped the reprisals and continued to fight with the partisans. She was later awarded the title Heroine of the Soviet Union. After the war she went on to become deputy director of the Fundamental Library of the Belarusian Academy of Sciences.

    His most famous quote is, “What plague and syphilis are to humanity, are Jews to the white race.”

    What a monstrosity !

    Did he in turn inspire this guy, who for some reason is remembered as “one of the most influential critics of her generation.”

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  261. a reader says:
    @Perspective

    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.
     
    What an incredibly offensive thing to say, substitute "Poles" with just about any protective class out there (IE Hispanic, Haitian, Vietnamese) and see the reaction. The double standard strikes again, currently India is building a wall with Bangladesh and banning and deporting Rohingya illegal migrants. Where is the outrage from the NYT? I'm not saying India has no right to do the aforementioned, I just wish the NYT would exercise some consistency every once in a while.

    For some time already, we are subjected to daily sob stories and reports, be it in the NYT or French media.
    Muslim Rohingyas are powerless victims (who merely attack police stations), while Buddhist Burmese are bloodthirsty oppressors. (remind you some pattern ?)

    This bodes not well for the future of Myanmar.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    It's the same in Sweden; completely unrelated I'm sure.

    There was for example a totally legit non-blood libel story about Rohingya children thrown into a fire by evil Buddhists a couple of days ago. The framework seems so familiar somehow. Syria ... gassings and holocaust centers ... Kuwait ... babies killed in hospitals ... umm, I can't quite remember. I'm feeling woozy, somebody give me a shot of Narrative, stat.

    I just can't figure out why Bangladesh dislikes the Rohingya too. That's a glitch. Literally shaking now.
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  262. a reader says:
    @AP

    Poland actually is a very anti-semitic country, even today.

    Actually that’s total bullshit.
     
    Poland certainly isn't antisemitic by Muslim or Nazi standards, they don't advocate harming Jews, nor do they justify or support pogroms or anti-Jewish terrorism; rather Poles tend to be very non-PC about Jews, noticing and openly discussing stuff like clannishness or Jewish successes. In Poland, I've heard several Poles comment about how physically unattractive they view Jews to be. I remember an American visitor being shocked at hearing such comments.

    As victims of Nazi atrocities themselves, Poles also tend not to place World War II-era Jews on a victim pedestal relative to themselves, emphasizing their own suffering, which may be off-putting to some Jewish visitors.

    In any case, no discussion of Poland’s alleged anti-semitism is complete without mentioning the Arenda system.

    (For some reason the Wikipedia article is only available in French.)

    Here are some well-documented versions in English. (must be read carefully)

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  263. Nico says:
    @Faraday's Bobcat
    Is the Pope Catholic?

    I used to ask that question ironically. Since Bergoglio set his bum on the seat of St. Peter I have found myself asking the question literally.

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  264. Anemone says:
    @Rod1963
    Yep they are still stuck in 39-45. But it's been very useful for them. They've made tremendous social and financial gains since '45. Not to mention being able to guilt trip whites who had association with what happened in Europe and to intimidate and punish whites who notice their control of the media, finance, and foreign policy.

    The only drawback is that they are now enablers of Islamic terrorism and colonization of the West which will destroy them, They are being driven out of France, England and in time Germany.

    Mutti Merkel did them no favors when unleashed the Muslim invasion on Europe.

    What if that was the goal all along?

    The ingathering of diaspora Jews to Israel IS one of the main goals of zionism.

    It is a feature, not a bug. And it is working. The number of Jews making aliyah is at an all time high.

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  265. How various anti-Semitic Central European countries where I have lived/worked respond to charges that they are anti-Semitic:

    1. Austria: No, we’re not smirking

    2. Hungary: Not saying we are, but we have a right to defend Hungarian identity

    3. Romania: Of course, Jews are evil

    4. Poland: How dare you! Poles are the most tolerant people in Europe! Only Jews would spread such nasty propaganda about Poland!

    I love Poland, but as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old.

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    • Replies: @Pericles

    I love Poland, but as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old.

     

    Hey over here, we've got another one!

    And ... sure you do.
    , @Moses
    How would you define "anti-Semitic"? Does it mean "anti-Jew"?

    Thanks.
    , @utu
    as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old

    All this because Poles are less inhibited to talk about Jews and their role. The more mature nations do not talk about Jews, right? So if Poles stopped talking about Jews would you give them a pass to graduate to the class of more mature nations? And if they stopped thinking about the Jews entirely they would graduate cum laude, right? Would it help them to make optimal decisions then if they amputated an important segment of reality from their field of vision?
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  266. Lex says:
    @demel
    Good discussion. And Poland is so anti-Semitic that today a guy got jail time there, primarily for making anti-Semitic comments...

    http://wroclawuncut.com/2017/11/16/piotr-rybak-bound-for-prison-after-breaking-house-arrest-terms/

    Piotr Rybak In Prison After Breaking House Arrest Terms
    Posted by: Gregor Gowans in News November 16, 2017

    Having successfully fought for his prison sentence to be downgraded to 3 months of electronic tagging, Piotr Rybak will now spend the next couple of months behind bars.
    For those not familiar with Rybak, he is an important figure in the Wrocław division of the ultra nationalist group the ONR.
    In November 2015 Piotr Rybak infamously burned an effigy of a Jew on the Rynek, which resulted in him being charged with the public incitement of hatred based on national, ethnic, racial and religious differences.
    After almost two years of legal wrangling, Rybak and his legal team managed to get his prison sentence reduced from 10 months to 3 months. The 3 month jail term was then downgraded to electronic tagging last month.

    Under the terms of his 3 month sentence of electronic tagging, Rybak was merely required to show "absolute observance of applicable legal norms" and stay at home from 7pm-9am.
    However, despite making it home from Saturday's nationalist march just in time, the courts have decided that Rybak is still guilty of breaking the conditions of his house arrest.
    According to Gazeta Wyborcza, the court's patience finally broke after Rybak continued to walk a fine line with his behaviour and comments about Jews.
    Only minutes after avoiding a prison sentence, Rybak recorded a video with his close friend Jacek Międlar outside Wrocław's White Stork Synagogoue. During the short clip he was heard saying "We wish all Lefties and Jews today would go to the nearest pharmacy and buy pills with coal, because it works better."
    Rybak then took part in the nationalist march on November the 11th, during which he was accused of making hate-filled chants alongside Międlar.
    Rybak was also seen criticising the Polish President and his wife on a Twitter video. During his tirade he called President Duda "pro-Ukrainian" and labelled his wife "Jewish". He then said that the Jews in Poland "should drive to Israel".
    Police are reported to have arrested Rybak in his home at 9pm yesterday. He was then taken to a police detention centre. This morning he was transferred to a prison on Świebodzka street, where he will likely spend the rest of his 3 month sentence behind bars.

    I wonder how they react in Israel to insults towards Polish people(like Radwańska sisters).

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  267. Pericles says:
    @a reader
    For some time already, we are subjected to daily sob stories and reports, be it in the NYT or French media.
    Muslim Rohingyas are powerless victims (who merely attack police stations), while Buddhist Burmese are bloodthirsty oppressors. (remind you some pattern ?)

    This bodes not well for the future of Myanmar.

    It’s the same in Sweden; completely unrelated I’m sure.

    There was for example a totally legit non-blood libel story about Rohingya children thrown into a fire by evil Buddhists a couple of days ago. The framework seems so familiar somehow. Syria … gassings and holocaust centers … Kuwait … babies killed in hospitals … umm, I can’t quite remember. I’m feeling woozy, somebody give me a shot of Narrative, stat.

    I just can’t figure out why Bangladesh dislikes the Rohingya too. That’s a glitch. Literally shaking now.

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  268. Pericles says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    How various anti-Semitic Central European countries where I have lived/worked respond to charges that they are anti-Semitic:

    1. Austria: No, we're not smirking

    2. Hungary: Not saying we are, but we have a right to defend Hungarian identity

    3. Romania: Of course, Jews are evil

    4. Poland: How dare you! Poles are the most tolerant people in Europe! Only Jews would spread such nasty propaganda about Poland!

    I love Poland, but as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old.

    I love Poland, but as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old.

    Hey over here, we’ve got another one!

    And … sure you do.

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    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    Russians love. They cannot help themselves :)
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  269. Dr. Doom says:

    You know God has a sense of humor when you see Jews in the New York Times claiming that Invading Poland is good for World Peace and Harmony. The Crazy Times have about climaxed at this point.

    Whom Gods Destroy, They First Drive Mad…

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  270. @JohnnyD
    I don't see how the Poles are being "undemocratic." The majority of their people voted to keep the migrants out. It's not like this nationalism was forced upon the Poles, the way Merkel forced her people to accept millions of refugees. Also, it's the German government which is throwing people in jail for complaining about the government's immigration policies.

    I don’t see how the Poles are being “undemocratic.”

    “Democratic” is an Orwell-word. Its official meaning is the opposite of its real meaning.

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  271. Moses says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    How various anti-Semitic Central European countries where I have lived/worked respond to charges that they are anti-Semitic:

    1. Austria: No, we're not smirking

    2. Hungary: Not saying we are, but we have a right to defend Hungarian identity

    3. Romania: Of course, Jews are evil

    4. Poland: How dare you! Poles are the most tolerant people in Europe! Only Jews would spread such nasty propaganda about Poland!

    I love Poland, but as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old.

    How would you define “anti-Semitic”? Does it mean “anti-Jew”?

    Thanks.

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  272. @Pericles

    I love Poland, but as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old.

     

    Hey over here, we've got another one!

    And ... sure you do.

    Russians love. They cannot help themselves :)

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  273. utu says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    How various anti-Semitic Central European countries where I have lived/worked respond to charges that they are anti-Semitic:

    1. Austria: No, we're not smirking

    2. Hungary: Not saying we are, but we have a right to defend Hungarian identity

    3. Romania: Of course, Jews are evil

    4. Poland: How dare you! Poles are the most tolerant people in Europe! Only Jews would spread such nasty propaganda about Poland!

    I love Poland, but as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old.

    as a nation Poland has the emotional maturity and self-awareness of a fifteen-year old

    All this because Poles are less inhibited to talk about Jews and their role. The more mature nations do not talk about Jews, right? So if Poles stopped talking about Jews would you give them a pass to graduate to the class of more mature nations? And if they stopped thinking about the Jews entirely they would graduate cum laude, right? Would it help them to make optimal decisions then if they amputated an important segment of reality from their field of vision?

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  274. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    Imagine if Hitler was a wacko atheist instead of an orthodox Catholic.

    Oh wait, he was.

    Some reason this (#144) was held up?

    It’s not a great insight or anything, but I don’t think it’s that bad.

    RB

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  275. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous

    But most Poles couldn’t tell a Muslim or a Buddhist from Jesus.
     
    Before veering off into his ethnic resentments Gross is glancing at Edsall's topsy-turvy observation:

    The election of Donald Trump revealed that in some of the nation’s whitest municipalities and counties — the communities arguably most insulated from urban crime, immigration and gangs -- ...
     
    This argumentation is so common there must be a catchy phrase for it by now.

    And again:

    … The right-wing ruling party in Poland, Law and Justice, has wantonly assailed the courts and the news media while railing against immigrants, Islam, the European Union and liberals.

    These far-right passions have little basis in reality. Poland’s economy has made great strides since Communism’s fall, and unemployment is at a record low, 5.3 percent. As for purported threats to Polish identity, the country of 38 million has taken in a total of 1,474 asylum-seekers this year — 18 of them from Syria, the rest mostly from Russia or Ukraine.

    “Why are you complaining about something we haven’t even done to you yet? Plus, you’re evil if you won’t let us.”

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  276. Anemone says:
    @Cyrano
    The only difference between a Catholic and a Muslim is that a Catholic believes that his religion makes him more civilized – and thus a better person, while a Muslim believes that his religion makes him a better person.

    There is only one extra step that Catholics take to reach the conclusion that their religion makes them better. They are both wrong. Religion doesn’t make anyone better if all the other indicators for humaneness are coming up empty.

    The only difference between Islam and Catholicism…

    Although after having read your past comments you stroke me as mildly retarded, this last display of laziness, arrogance and sheer ignorance puts you in, eyeballing here, the top 10000 percentile of UNZs most brutish and simplistic comments, and I have to assume that you must probably be 12 years old.

    And this comes from an atheist reader, in favor of outlawing the initiation and teaching of religion to minors.

    Bravo Cyrano!

    Now go and read a bit (a lot) before commenting on things you obviously have no idea about and form an informed and balanced opinion before even thinking to touch that keyboard again to nauseate the readership with your mental droppings.

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  277. Lex says:

    http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Poland-defends-Warsaw-march-calling-for-ethnic-cleansing-of-Jews-Muslims-514160

    POLAND DEFENDS MARCH CALLING FOR ETHNIC CLEANSING OF JEWS, MUSLIMS

    Israel has spoken with Poland about the march. On Sunday night its Foreign Ministry said that the event was a dangerous “parade of extremist and racist elements.”

    It added, “We hope the Polish authorities will act against the organizers. History shows that racial hatred must be dealt with quickly and decisively.”

    Prior to World War II some 3.2 million Jews lived in Poland, most of whom were killed during the Holocaust; many of the survivors left. As of 2010, there were only about 3,200 Jews still living in Poland.

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  278. Thirdeye says:
    @DFH

    Their animus, which carries Polish nationalism into such an aggressively xenophobic articulation, springs primarily from a deep pool of ethnic-cum-religious hatred, which is indigenous to Poland and has historically been aimed at Jews.
     
    Funny how he doesn't mention any of the reasons why this might exist

    He neglected to mention that it is also directed at Orthodox Christians and Protestants. But you know how things fall in the cracks when everything is all about The Jews.

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  279. Thirdeye says:
    @(((Owen)))

    The Nazis murdered more than 20% of Poland’s population, including the 3M Jews, but it is the fault of the Poles?
     
    "The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils."

    Yes, it is the fault of the Poles. They had 21 inter-war years to industrialize and re-arm themselves. The Bolsheviks were glaringly intent upon expansion and conquest from the beginning and the Germans were as well in the 1930s. And the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today's Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.

    But ethnic squabbles, elite infighting, squalid traditional feudal economies, and jockeying for status absorbed the potential of the Polish nation. They had every opportunity to unify, invest, and grow by open trade, land reform, and dissolving cartels and monopolies with free competition. They could have invested in schools, roads, and universities. But they did not; it was more important to keep elites powerful than to create wealth.

    And the poor—but stably hierarchical—Poland had no ability to defend against the Nazis and Soviets. So 20% of Poles died, including nearly every single one of the Jews. Non-Communist Party elites were mostly murdered or imprisoned. And the communists didn't do so hot either.

    But they had time and opportunity to avoid their own destruction. It was plainly coming and gave abundant warning. And they did nothing.

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.

    Just as America and western Europe deserve 100% of the blame for what is happening to them today. It's not the Moslem and African invaders that are ruining them. They're ruining themselves. They have been given abundant warning. And they are doing nothing to stop it.

    Poland’s mistake was in failing to foresee the rearmament of Germany and the rapid emergence of Soviet industrial power. Their security strategy depended on Anglo-French sponsorship, as established in the 1919-1921 wars. What worked in 1921 no longer worked in 1939.

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  280. Steve,

    Larry Auster once wrote that if you take a half gallon of ice cream and mix it with a pint of shit, the total will not taste or feel like ice cream. Gross’s piece contains more lies and hysterical exaggerations than you can possibly know, and you criticized adroitly those of them that you could discern. But you avoided commenting on the pint of shit that Gross describes more or less truthfully.

    You evince the same blind spot that has taken the Alt Right down, again and again, not the least in the recent Charlottesville march and in this Polish event too. “Sig Heil,” whether in mocking by R. Spencer or in earnest by Polish, Slovak and Hungarian Nazizoid yobs is not funny. The NPI “conference” in Budapest was not the wholesome event that Vdare.com described, either. Viktor Orban–by far the best, most effective leader that any white country has–had the insight to shut it down and let R. Spencer taste Hungarian jail. Poland’s president followed with a preventive measure.

    That is what smart white leaders do. Hungary is 100 times more effective in pointing out and containing negative Jewish influences than all these Sieg Heil “white patriots” are in their sum total, including in the U.S. — precisely because Orban shuns toxic antisemites. Orban’s Fidesz is thriving, but McDonald’s A3P not quite so.

    It’s time you and the true American right, from Charles Martel Society through the selection of the speakers at the Mencken Conference, reflected on this issue.

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  281. Beckow says:
    @sailerfan5000

    Poles were slated for extermination by Germans as sub-humans
     
    Is there any source for this? People make claims like this regarding what the Nazis would have done had they won the war but there never seems to be any provided evidence or context.

    I understand Isteve commentators loath to be associated with all the National Socialists on the alt-right, but they seem to be conspicuously devoid of having skepticism of the victor's narrative of WW2. You guys are people who generally show skepticism of all the other narratives from both present day (muslims/immigration is great!) to history (civil rights movement was all black run and great for the nation!), but when someone claims Hitler planned to to X/Y/Z to some population of over 20+ million people, no one seems to raise an eyebrow.

    I'm not saying you all need to put on the swastika patch, but the Nazi Demon narrative is pretty integral in how they keep the alt-right suppressed. The standard narrative is that the second you start accepting racial differences as a White European you open the door to thinking of others as "sub-human," and you'll have no qualms about putting people in death camps. Much as we make fun of leftists for lazily calling people "nazis" to end a conversation, there's a reason they still do it because it still holds a certain amount of effectiveness.

    And before you call me a you-know-what, I like to make it clear that I'm glad Hitler shot himself in his bunker, and glad the Anglos were able to reach western Germany before it was too late. The National Socialists really do represent the upper limits of human brutality. (emphasis on the HUMAN, not the White Male authoritarian personality disorder BS).

    “Is there any source for this?”

    I share your skepticism, I also tend to err on the skeptic side. I dislike the ritualised self-debasement that European Christian societies have descended to, with Germans the absolute extreme. You are right that a lot of what we hear is ‘victor history’. And the stories get exaggerated and over-simplified.

    But there was (unfortunately) a documented plan by Germany to slowly exterminate a number of eastern European nations, Poles among them as the primary victims. You can start with Mein Kampf where the ‘lebensraum’ (living space for more Germans) is described in detail. What followed were a number of implementation plans starting in 1939: Poles were moved out of certain areas, German colonists were moved in (e.g. Auschwitz was a ‘happy’ German town with thousands of new German colonists from the West), educated classes were eliminated (mostly shot), higher education above elementary school for Poles was forbidden. There are documents that were presented in Norimberg based on German Plan Ost that talked about 1/3 Poles moved to the east, 1/3 forcefully assimilated (the better looking ones?), 1/3 exterminated. Some of them were fantastic, but both the intention and the initial execution can easily be documented.

    This was real and 3 million Polish Catholics were murdered by Germans. (250,000 Czechs were also murdered). This was nothing like in the Western Europe, Germans saw the local population as redundant sub-humans and they acted on that belief. There was never even an attempt to have some sort of a local Polish self-government, it was a brutal, military occupation from day one until the end of war when Red Army defeated them.

    The WWII Nazism was anti-white people, anti-Christian people – if those people were not Germanic or Latin (Anglos were always fine with Hitler). That’s why it failed – you cannot take on 200 million eastern Europeans. My suggestion to the West, liberal, nationalist, or whatever, is not to try it again.

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  282. @Bies Podkrakowski

    Poland deserves 100% of the blame for what happened to it in WWII.
     
    Fascinating theory.

    But you are obviously confusing late First Republic also called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth a.k.a Kingdom of Poland (translating polish term Rzeczpospolita is tricky) and Second Polish Republic.

    the Poles were one of the highest-IQ peoples in the world at the time, probably exceeding even the Chinese and Koreans of today; even without the Jews, today’s Poland has higher smart fraction IQs than Russians or Germans.
     
    This stimulates reward centers of my nationalistic brain. Any sources on this?

    I just know that in academics, in engineering companies, and the major math, physics, and computer sciences olympiads for students, the Poles show up at top levels in numbers ridiculously out of proportion to population.

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