The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Is the NYT Gearing Up to Watson Geneticist David Reich Too?
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Oddly, the New York Times has published a second article summarizing the message of its long article on David Reich and other Ancient DNA scientists:

5 Takeaways From the Ancient DNA Research Story

By The New York Times Magazine
Jan. 17, 2019

In only the past few years, as a new report in The New York Times Magazine describes, this burgeoning science of “paleogenomics” has begun to offer surprising revisions to the story of humanity. But at the same time, this research has generated significant controversy, including among some of the archaeologists, anthropologists and other academics who have collaborated with geneticists on this work.

This kind of Vox-like explainer about a New York Times article appearing in the New York Times is pretty weird. Presumably, the NYT, having recently Watsoned for crimethinking geneticist James Watson now wants to Watson fellow crimethinker geneticist David Reich.

Here are some key takeaways.

The study of ancient DNA has upended many of our assumptions about prehistoric times.

For decades, it was commonly believed that ancient communities tended to stay in one place — and thus didn’t mix very much with their neighbors.

The idea of “pure” groups with identifiable “origins” has been largely reconsidered.

Many of the new findings say the same thing: that these groups mixed together in the process of great and previously unknown migrations.

For example, ancient DNA research seems to indicate that about 5,000 years ago, when Europe was populated with a mix of hunter-gatherer groups and early farmers, a group of outsiders suddenly arrived — nomadic herders from the Asian steppes — and within a relatively short time their own ancestry became prevalent. Sometimes these prehistoric migrations seemed to result in “admixture” between groups on an even footing. Other times, however, researchers describe population “replacement” or “turnover” — the near-wholesale shift from one predominant ancestry to another. Contemporary Europeans owe a significant amount of their genetic inheritance to the incoming herders.

So, the history of Western Europe being invaded by Aryans in the 25th Century BC should make you favor North America being invaded by Central Americans in the 21st Century AD and Eastern Europe being invaded by Aryans in the 20th Century AD.

Oh … what? Uh-oh … OK, the takeaway is to change the name Aryans to Indo-Europeans. Forget all about Aryans.

For peoples around the world today, these new theories about origin and migration can have destabilizing implications. …

Archaeologists have collaborated with geneticists on these academic papers, but many of them now worry that the papers are trafficking in some old, discredited ideas.

Many archaeologists feel as though they’ve been here before. For the first half of the twentieth century, archaeology tended to believe that large migrations of superior peoples shaped the landscape and culture of the ancient world. That idea was easily exploited by nationalists…

In the early 1960s, a new generation of archaeologists came to question these grand historical narratives and the unwarranted assumptions that supported them. They turned away from simplistic stories about the distant past in favor of much more detailed attention to specific societal dynamics. Now, some worry that their geneticist colleagues are making similarly grand claims on the basis of a small number of samples.

As opposed to the reigning Social Constructionist conventional wisdom, which was based on no number of samples, just wishful thinking.

Razib Khan responds:

One thing I want to address is a critique, expressed by some academics in the piece, that researchers in ancient DNA do not have the number of samples to make the generalizations that they make. This seems reasonable on the face of it, but one thing you have to consider is that when you obtain an individual’s DNA you get a window onto their whole pedigree. A single individual is actually a pedigree if you have its genome. A genome provides an enormous amount of data. It is an endpoint of a historical process of sexual reproduction that extends back many generations.

Of course, it could be that the one ancient skeleton available happened to be some shipwrecked guy from far away or whatever, but over time you get more samples so this problem isn’t terribly permanent. One thing you can say in defense of David Reich is that he is not hoarding evidence. Data is getting churned out to the public at remarkable speed.

Because, of course, the social constructionist Old Guard whose fundamental worldview is being proven wrong were never “bewitched” by ideology.

David Reich has peeved a lot of people for reasons good and bad. He’s put himself near the top of a cartel of super labs that are doing astonishing research at the cost of demanding that everybody else play ball with them or be relegated to the minor leagues of ancient DNA research. It’s kind of like it’s 1890 and the Standard Oil Company will sell you high quality fuel practically all over the world, but don’t even think about going into the oil business if you don’t want to play ball with John D. Rockefeller.

Reich and Paabo seem to have an agreement that Reich deals with the more recent skeletons and Paabo the older ones. Reich’s big competitor is evidently Eske Willerslev, who isn’t mentioned in the NYT article.

The ideological questions are mostly a cover for these business questions. We’ll see if Reich has thrown enough Russians peasants out of his sleigh ideologically to save his operation from the wolves on his tail. As I wrote last year:

Despite Reich’s occasional need to stop his otherwise lucid narrative to spew irrational rage against his fellow race-science heretics such as James D. Watson, the genome expert conclusively demolishes the post-Boasian anthropologists’ conventional wisdom.

For poorly explained reasons, Reich feels it satisfying to occasionally vilify some of his own admirers, such as Watson, New York Times genetics reporter Nicholas Wade, the late genetic anthropologist Henry Harpending, reporter Jason Hardy, physicist Gregory Cochran, and economic historian Gregory Clark. In the funniest line in the book, Reich exclaims:

Writing now, I shudder to think of Watson, or of Wade, or their forebears, behind my shoulder.

Evidently, Reich has…issues. But a close reader of his book can enjoy his prodigious research without taking terribly seriously Reich’s prejudices.

 
Hide 85 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. syonredux says:

    Many of the new findings say the same thing: that these groups mixed together in the process of great and previously unknown migrations.

    Not unknown to scholars in the 1920s….

    https://www.amazon.com/Aryans-V-Gordon-Childe/dp/0880291397

  2. The study of ancient DNA has upended many of our assumptions about prehistoric times.

    For example, turns out the Ziggurat of Ur was built by four sassy black chicks who migrated there from Sweden. Where they’d been gang-raped by blond Nordics. No really, you can look it up. If it hadn’t been for Open Borders it would have just been an anthill. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    Here’s one for Corvy & Ducky: Columbus’s Toxic Whiteness led to Auschwitz.
    https://medium.com/the-secret-history-of-america/the-whitest-man-who-ever-lived-6f9e3c60b560

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @Reg Cæsar
  3. Lagertha says:

    OMG. I have a bomb shell of my family.

  4. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Sometimes these prehistoric migrations seemed to result in “admixture” between groups on an even footing.

    I don’t remember Reich mentioning this “admixture” possibility, if what is meant here is a free mixing of two populations, with intermarriage involving both sexes of both peoples. Maybe I don’t remember it from Reich’s book, or maybe it wasn’t in the book.

    What I remember is that there were two things that they found happening: (1) The prior inhabitants completely disappeared from the genome, or (2) The female lines remained, but the male lines entirely disappeard from the genome.

    In other words, the men were always killed. In some cases the women were killed also, but usually they were raped and taken as sub-wives. Personally, I think that the women were not a randomly selected subset of the conquered people. They probably killed all the women who were not within the first five years or so of their menarche.

  5. Lagertha says:

    it is true bombshell…all the way to the Levant.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anonymous
  6. Lagertha says:

    the scary part was: Red Hair. I had insomnia over this…. yeah, yeah, yeah, I am still a “srawberry-blonde” but still Red. I enjoyed that book Red: a history of the Red Head.

  7. Razib Khan says: • Website

    aryans is a term only used by indo-iranians.

  8. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s funny how they don’t mention that most of this data concerns Europe, and that similar conclusions about population movements and “admixture” could be made about the Americas if skulls were more freely available.

    “We know who are ancestors are and how we came to be here: The Great Buffalo in the Sky created us! We will not release our ancestral bones.”

    Had there been more American data, then the explainer could have included an item like:

    6. It turns out the the First Peoples were the second peoples, and they killed off the real first peoples, except for a few of the hotter chicks that they kept around. The real first peoples might have resisted more effectively, but they were having trouble getting enough nutrition after killing to extinction 30 species of unique New World macrofauna and thus screwing up their environment. The third peoples let some of the second peoples live and they were given casinos.

  9. What’s the deal with immediately writing a new article to report on their first article?

    The first one did seem to be flabbily written. My guess is that someone noticed some language that could be construed as overly tolerant of wrong think, so they had to issue what they consider to be a more condemning clarification.

    Both articles are behind a paywall so it’s hard to say what they amended exactly.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @jim jones
  10. Lagertha says:
    @Razib Khan

    WTF is wrong with you!? Armenians have used that for a long, long time, way before you either knew who you are for 12 generations!, hahaaa I really hate SJWs with an axe to grind.

  11. Lagertha says:
    @Razib Khan

    no, you’re wrong. The term comes from the Arals – look at a map. Sorry, I love to curse and use the F word as much as possible…it’s an imaginary weapon, I suppose.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  12. Lot says:

    “Is the NYT Gearing Up to Watson Geneticist David Reich?”

    It helps to be A Jew With Ivy League Tenure. Amy Wax survived. Pinker gets plenty of hate on Woke Twitter but nothing more organized has ever come from it. Larry Summers lost his President of Harvard position, but is still a top tier professor.

  13. KunioKun says:

    Maybe the NYT is subtly warning its readers that today’s Grand Narrative might need a rethink? Or, more likely, the NYT is reminding academics that everybody needs to be inline on today’s Grand Narrative, or else. Of course, today’s Grand Narrative is not bad like great grandpa’s grand narratives.

    I always assumed that the invasions from the steppes (huns and goths) at the end of the Roman empire were just one more cycle of a pattern that continued backward forever in time so long as humans existed in those regions.

    “discredited ideas” is npc-speak for “ideas we don’t like”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  14. Lagertha says:
    @Razib Khan

    Sorry to be so strident…but I just found out that my family goes back to the Levant…to Armenia/Iran/Iraq…haplo stuff…incredible stuff logged by a professor family person. I know that sounds weird, but I want him to remain anonymous…bc we only care about our one weird family – did not realize with DNA results that we added 2000+ years to our known family tree (goes back 800 yrs).

  15. Why can’t they just spin this research as woke? Is it really so hard? E.g. “Europeans” are the descendants of evil invaders who came in and killed everybody. They stole Europe, so they don’t even deserve their “homeland”.

  16. El Dato says:
    @Mr McKenna

    Here’s one for Corvy & Ducky: Columbus’s Toxic Whiteness led to Auschwitz.

    Fuuu …. that writing is a hard slog. Writing from a universe in which the Eurasian Contient is reduced to Evilurope & a few annex slave territories exploited by whitey. When an article starts with a quote from Gravity’s Rainbow, it’s generally not a good sign.

    “The Genius” is the great white male thinker — Newton, Darwin, Einstein — chasing universal pursuits like mathematics, science and exploration. The non-white male majority of the human race exist beyond the borders of Civilization…

    I thought Einstein wasn’t even white?

    Over the past 500 years there have been many contenders for the dubious honor of being the whitest man who ever lived. Tight competition arises from the likes of Thomas Jefferson, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Reinhard Hydrich [sic], John Mayer, John Elway, Jay Gould, or the guy who started it all, Christopher Columbus.

    I have never heard Reinhard Heydrich listed in the same breath as … wait a minute.

    Scroll.. Scroll …

    Michael Mark Cohen teaches American Studies and African American Studies at UC Berkeley.

    Oh.

    Which brings us, finally, to the best part of this photo: the toy Rockets. Just look at that row of model Rockets, that mathematically engorging bar graph of tumescent metal missiles. These are scale models of the Saturn rocket series, with the enormous Saturn V model directly at WvB’s back and extending outside the frame. So yes, the choice of decor speaks to his profession and his obsessions.

    As Freud says: Sometimes a mockup of a technical system is just something that a Cohen is bound to interpret as a penis and has to obsess about.

    The last word on this story has to go to Gil Scott Herron, and his poem “Whitey on the Moon,” released on Small Talk on 125 and Lenox (1970).

    Rat done bit my sister Nell, and Whitey’s on the Moon.
    Her face and arms began to swell, and Whitey’s on the Moon.
    I can’t pay no doctor’s bills, with Whitey on the Moon.

    And now it’s Chinaman on the Moon, and you still can’t pay the doctor’s bills, though they are more diverse for sure. How about that?

    • Replies: @bomag
  17. Luke Lea says:

    So maybe mass migrations of peoples is not such a good idea for the peoples on the receiving ends?

    Do we know of any exceptions?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  18. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Luke Lea

    America, when we could absorb newcomers with wilderness, and arguably a period in later America when the immigrants we got were skilled and well-behaved. In both cases work was needed to accommodate people, it wasn’t this happy accident that just worked out.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  19. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Razib Khan

    Razib returns and immediately runs into Lagertha. It could’ve been donut …

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  20. AKAHorace says:

    Completely off topic, a question for those who know about Sword and Sorcery (Conan) lit.

    I always thought that Tolkien was a pioneer when he went back to ancient myths. Conan the barbarian was published before Lord of the Rings though ? I always had the impression that it came out in the 50s. Did either gendre influence each other ?

  21. El Dato says:

    OT1: What’s the deal with Trump’s “S.D.I. Zwei”?

    It sounds like one of those projects that will definitely to prove that freshly printed “money” and an organization that is mostly bureaucracy doesn’t give you supertech if you just have JavaScript wranglers to spend it on and Physics is against you.

    S.D.I.’s great success was due to the fact that nobody had to design even a demonstrator…

    Never try to do “take two” on a known scam. I thought Trump understood that.

    This time there isn’t even a good rationale for “industrial policy” in the guise of an armaments race. (i.e. a pot of money for blue-sky R&D and STEM academics as happened for Strategic Defense and Strategic Computing intiatives)

    OT2: Southern Poverty Law Center hit with lawsuit for tagging immigration watchdog as hate group

  22. El Dato says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    I surmise that kind of “point + re-point” article pair emission would be encountered in Soviet Publications. It helps to “clarify” things which might have made a wrong impression on the article-skimming proletariat and possibly caused a commissar to place an inquisitive phone call to the editor.

    • Agree: Peter Johnson
  23. @Anon

    The third peoples let some of the second peoples live and they were given casinos.

    LOL

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  24. Anon[205] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lagertha

    The real problem is that it’s out in the open.

    All these PC voices who seek to destroy careers KNOW THE TRUTH themselves. They just don’t want us to know it. But the truth is coming out. This truth is apparently ‘too dangerous’ for us and especially for them if we know it. We are to be told fairy tales while the ‘adults in the room’ get to hog the facts.

    If Reich had related these truths to only the inner circle, no problem. But his stuff became public, and that was the big problem.

    Same thing with Watson. He talked to the public. It’s likely that Watson privately said such things to a bunch of people in over the decades, but that was okay because it was insider knowledge. Yes, blacks lag in intelligence. His real sin was he went public with it. And then, everyone had to turn against him. Now, all the people who heard him say it in private and probably agreed with him are feigning shock because THEY too will come under attack. Same with Donald Sterling. People knew he said such things forever. But it became public, and everyone felt he had to disown him or else be tarnished by association.

    So, it’s not much what people believe. It’s a matter of keeping in within the inner circle or telling the whole world.

    I finally saw ROSEMARY’S BABY. It’s a Polanski movie I’ve been avoiding all these years because it annoyed me to no end as one of my sister’s obsessions long ago.

    But it’s actually an interesting esoteric movie about a resilient bunch of Jews with ancient roots taking over the womb of a white woman with no sense of roots and history. (The story isn’t saying Jews are devil worshipers but that they internalized some of the accusations of satanism against them as Christ-killers and blood-libelers. As they had to survive as the ‘parasitic’ Other, they couldn’t help but absorb some of the negative stereotypes about them. It’s like some white guys internalize aspects of ‘nazism’ because they are told 24/7 that they are ‘white supremacists’ for just saying “it’s okay to be white”. But then, I suppose there is a kind of ‘satanism’ in any form of traditionalism. In a traditional society, a woman isn’t just marrying the man as individual but bearer of the torch. So, he is carrying the seed of not only himself but his father and grandfather and greatgrandfather and etc. And that means the woman is having sex not just with her husband but his father and grandfather and etc. Thus, sex becomes more ritualistic or ‘satanic’-conspiratorial.)

    ROSEMARY’S BABY is relevant to the genetic debate today because of the two layers of reality by which the People of the Coven(ant) operate in the film. On the outside, they seem mostly like normal people and try to pass themselves as ordinary Americans. And in public, they would most passionately DENY what they are really about. But in their inner circle, they know what it’s all about. Anyway, what is allowed and even obligatory in the inner circle is totally forbidden in public.

    Reich’s crime is not that he came up with certain findings. It’s that he’s in a position to share it with the world. Oh no! Such knowledge must be kept with the Coven(ant). Today’s elites are like the Coven in RB. They know and surely speak the truth inside the Coven. The truth is dark and it’s about power and ruthless competition.
    And if this truth goes public and becomes part of normal discourse, everyone will see the world differently and the fairytale of the ‘liberal democratic world order’ will crumble. The facade needs to be maintained to push through the globalist project that really empowers the ultra elites of the inner circle. That is the paradox. In order for the Coven to maximize its super-elitism, they must hide the real truth and fool us into believing that the globalist project is about diversity-and-inclusion and the dream of equality when, in fact, the end goal is very opposite. The elites promote the falsehood of equality to create the NWO in which their inner-circle gets to reign supreme forever.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
    , @RonaldB
  25. Mr. Anon says:

    Perhaps we shouldn’t use the term “Watsoning” do describe the act of Watsoning. How about calling it “Gallileoing” to make plain what is really at issue? Nowadays, Gallileo is considered the good guy, so it makes clear what is really happening: the suppression of scientific thought that the establishment considers inconvenient.

  26. Twinkie says:
    @Razib Khan

    aryans is a term only used by indo-iranians.

    It’s a lost cause with Mr. Sailer on that score. I’ve corrected him numerous times, but he just chugs along.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  27. Twinkie says:
    @Lagertha

    Lagertha, dear, you know I’m quite fond of your wine-soaked ditziness, but for goodness sakes, shut it and pay attention. You are writing to an actual geneticist.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
  28. @AKAHorace

    The Lord of the Rings didn’t come out until the 1950s, but The Hobbit was published in the 1930s, and Tolkien was already deep into his myth-building during his WWI years.

    Tolkien also didn’t want to reproduce/retool ancient myths: he was trying to make up a new one for England. He was in a way jealous that other ‘northerners’ such as the Germans and Nordics and Celts had national myths and literature (much of which he had studied in the original languages) in a way England didn’t.

  29. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    Evidently, Reich has…issues. But a close reader of his book can enjoy his prodigious research without taking terribly seriously Reich’s prejudices.

    Steve:

    Could you please lay out an educational roadmap for the world, or thinking people, to get up to speed on the latest and best science regarding genetic determinism and human biodiversity. Assume total ignorance on the part of the students, to start with.

    Does one just need to read Reich’s book?
    Other books?
    Take an intro course in genetics to understand those books?
    Take a course in mathematics to understand the genetics course.

    I get the sense reading your posts that an awful lot is being obscured. Please point the way to our arriving at the understanding you think we should have.

  30. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    It’s a lost cause with Mr. Sailer on that score. I’ve corrected him numerous times, but he just chugs along.

    He’s also been asked numerous times to drop the pejorative “WASP”.

    • Replies: @robwin
  31. @Mr McKenna

    For example, turns out the Ziggurat of Ur was built by four sassy black chicks who migrated there from Sweden

    A giant dildo? Stele Dan?

    Still, I can understand why they wouldn’t brag about it, now that we know ziggurats cause canzer.

  32. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    In other words, the men were always killed.

    They were always killed … when what happened exactly??

    Could you please be a little more specific?

    And is this a claim made in Reich’s book?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @dr kill
  33. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    6. It turns out the the First Peoples were the second peoples, and they killed off the real first peoples,

    Has this been established in any way?

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
  34. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lagertha

    it is true bombshell…all the way to the Levant.

    What happened? Did you just learn you are Jewish or something?

  35. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @KunioKun

    I always assumed that the invasions from the steppes (huns and goths) at the end of the Roman empire were just one more cycle of a pattern that continued backward forever in time so long as humans existed in those regions.

    And what pattern was that exactly?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  36. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross

    America, when we could absorb newcomers with wilderness, and arguably a period in later America when the immigrants we got were skilled and well-behaved. In both cases work was needed to accommodate people, it wasn’t this happy accident that just worked out.

    America is not a counter example. Mass migration was not a good idea for the Amerindians or the founding stock that succeeded them. Both have been replaced by the newcomers.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @baythoven
  37. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    And if this truth goes public and becomes part of normal discourse, everyone will see the world differently and the fairytale of the ‘liberal democratic world order’ will crumble.

    This sentence is in need of some explication.

    • Replies: @Anon
  38. AndrewR says:
    @Anonymous

    Traditionally, when a territory is conquered, all the conquered men are either exiled, killed or enslaved. The net effect is the same: their genetic line in that territory ends.

  39. jim jones says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    The NYT is open if you live outside the USA, I suggest you get a VPN and change your location:

  40. @Anon

    New story, contesting previous explanations for extinction of Clovis people and megafauna in Pleistocene Americas:

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/impact-crater-greenland-asteroid-younger-dryas

    Seems this is the asteroid that did the damage. The impace of secondary debris from the asteroid impact can be seen in the upper Midwest today on ground penetrating radar.

    I’ve seen no report of evidence that Asian immigrants killed off Clovis remnant populations, but, hey, that bunch killed off each other enthusiastically right up to the AD 1800s, why not Clovis remnants also? Just a guess, of course.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    , @Old fogey
  41. Twinkie says:
    @AndrewR

    Traditionally, when a territory is conquered, all the conquered men are either exiled, killed or enslaved. The net effect is the same: their genetic line in that territory ends.

    Really? Is that why Britain is still 50%+ Celtic as opposed to Anglo-Saxon or Norman?

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  42. @Anon

    Killing the men and taking the women seems to be the case in Spain when the Yamna arrived four millennia ago, and also in Medellin, Colombia, when the Spanish descendants of the Yamna arrived less than four centuries ago. In both cases the Y-dna of the previous occupants almost vanished, but the MTdna survived.

    That great anthropologist Winston Churchill again, writing in the 30s. People armed with DNA are still arguing over whether the Saxons intermingled or exterminated – last I read five or six years back was a theory that South-Eastern England was already pretty Belgic rather than Celtic.

    A broader question is keenly disputed. Did the invaders exterminate the native population, or did they superimpose themselves upon them and become to some extent blended with them? Here it is necessary to distinguish between the age of fierce forays in search of plunder and the age of settlement. Gildas is speaking of the former, and the scenes he described were repeated in the Danish invasions three centuries later. But to the settler such raids are only occasional incidents in a life mainly occupied in subduing the soil, and in that engrossing task labour is as important as land. The evidence of place-names suggests that in Sussex extermination was the rule. Farther west there are grounds for thinking that a substantial British population survived, and the oldest West Saxon code of A.D. 694 makes careful provision for the rights of “Welshmen” of various degrees — substantial landowners, and “the King’s Welshmen who ride his errands”, his native gallopers in fact, who knew the ancient track-ways. Even where self-interest did not preserve the native villagers as labourers on Saxon farms we may cherish the hope that somewhere a maiden’s cry for pity, the appeal of beauty in distress, the lustful needs of an invading force, would create some bond between victor and vanquished. Thus the blood would be preserved, thus the rigours of subjugation would fade as generations passed away. The complete obliteration of an entire race over large areas is repulsive to the human mind. There should at least have been, in default of pity, a hearing for practical advantage or the natural temptations of sex.

    • Replies: @HA
  43. @Razib Khan

    The Nazis were Persian? Besides, it’s a great way for those of us from the lower orders to say we’re equal to aristocrats.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  44. @Twinkie

    Twinkie wrote:

    Really? Is that why Britain is still 50%+ Celtic as opposed to Anglo-Saxon or Norman?

    My impression from Reich’s book is that the English are largely pre-Celtic.

    I admit that what I most liked about Reich’s book is that I am descended from the Bell Beaker folk: I’ve had a fascination with the Beaker folk ever since reading Andre Norton’s The Time Traders back in grade school.

    It bears mentioning that Reich’s book is not primarily about hot issues concerning race and intelligence. The book is mainly just really cool stuff about the past and about our ancestors.

  45. Sean says:

    The ideological questioners have dispensed with the category of truth altogether. It’s a left wing version of Hobbes.

  46. Anon[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    If racial differences really do exist, the arrival of 100 millions of black Africans into Europe doesn’t mean lots more white people who just happen to have black skin. It means a real challenge of dealing with a people less intelligent, stronger, and possibly more psychopathic. If ONE Simon Mol managed to have sex with 300 Polish women, what does the arrival of 100s of millions of Africans portend?

    And people will have to get used to the idea that some groups, Jews for example, will have socio-economic dominance over them on a permanent basis due to genetic factors.

    So-called End of History would be seen as Beginning of Superiority. Behind the sheen of equal liberal success for all of humanity tutored on same ideas and values, there will be increasing dominance over some groups over others. Just like sports have narrowed the field for black domination around the world, globalism has increased Jewish and Chinese power over that of many others.

    So far, many peoples around the world, elites and masses, have been made accepting of globalism on the premise that all people are same and interchangeable(though Zionists don’t think Jews and Arabs are interchangeable). Many goy nations have been persuaded to accept and even welcome replacement like Palestinians in the West Bank on the premise that the newcomers are just like them or can become must like them. Globalism is universal Palestinianization of goy nations. The realization of the truth of HBD may lead to the Zionization of goy nations. Each nation, like Israel, will try to guard its uniqueness and be mindful of other groups as really being different and posing a challenge to their well-being.

    The Glob wants Zionization only for Israel while Palestinianization for everyone else. That’s why it shrieks about spread of HBD.

    Yet, it’s strange because the globalist message works on two levels contradictorily. In what it SAYS, it emphasizes racial equality. So,white Europeans should welcome Africans as white-people-with-black-skin. But in what it SHOWS, it highlights racial superiority. So, white Europeans should welcome Africans as the superior race who will bring the light of sports excellence, sexual prowess, and colorfulness to dull bland white-bread race.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Flip
  47. Anonymous[123] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Nope. There is no inner party.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @Anon
  48. KunioKun says:

    Sorry, I am unable to do the @ thing because of all my anti-javascript stuff. I will explain my thinking on the question of the pattern of invasions from the steppes.

    I am not an expert or even particularly well read on the topic, so I reserve the right to be wrong.

    1) the steppes have little resources for building walls. (I understand they are wide open plains).
    2) life in that environment would be brutal because you cannot hide behind walls. You stand and fight or lose and run/die. The survivors would have to be hard as nails.
    3) life where people can build walls (like Rome) to hide behind is softer. You can have more specialization so you can develop a more complex society (technology).
    4) When these groups interact with each other some of the plainsmen will get the idea that they want a softer life or maybe just some of the goodies behind the walls or maybe they get pounded by even tougher plainsmen (the goths were fleeing the huns). So invasions occur.
    5) These invasions are complicated. They could start out as raiding but over time end up with settlement. Superior tech from the complex societies (armor, disciplined fighting techniques, religious zealotry) can fend them off for a time but eventually the softies lose. However, during that time the invaders tend to evolve to become softies themselves. A generation or two later and the former invaders are outraged that some ass on a horse wants to come and raid on his ancestral lands.

    6) Why did the steppes keep producing new waves of people? I have no idea. I would guess that the plains are big enough to support big populations of people but not so big like Africa that they can keep moving away. Eventually they had to leave the plains. Also, lack of specialization meant there was less to do other than make babies and fight.

    7) the above is about Rome, but walled cities were not invented by the Romans so I assume the pattern continues backwards at least as far as the invention of walled cities. Perhaps the first waves of massive success by the Indo-Euro/Aryans initially was due to nobody inventing walls yet?

    I am reading the series of book on Byzantium by Norwich. The first book is pretty much the fall of the western empire. It is lots of fun reading about all this. The above is me filling in the gaps from his facts. I need to read more on the topic.

  49. Anonymous[529] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    The Glob wants Zionization only for Israel while Palestinianization for everyone else. That’s why it shrieks about spread of HBD.

    Why would the spread of HBD lead to Zionization outside of Israel?

    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @RonaldB
  50. dr kill says:
    @Anonymous

    Oh boy, is this a request for someone to draw you a picture?

    I personally feel that bilateral vasectomy would show more feelz than castration, don’t you agree? Or perhaps just a pinky-swear not to breed anymore.

  51. Andy says:

    I wasn’t aware of Eske Willerslev, but he seems to have had an interesting life:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eske_Willerslev

  52. @AndrewR

    Traditionally, when a territory is conquered, all the conquered men are either exiled, killed or enslaved. The net effect is the same: their genetic line in that territory ends.

    That’s not the way conquest works. What happens is that the defeated warriors are asked to submit or die. The ones who submit are incorporated piecemeal into existing units, kept as an independent unit with other units placed behind them as their reliability/loyalty is ascertained, or turned into civilians. Every successful empire has added large numbers of defeated warriors to its ranks. Enslaving warriors is asking for trouble. They need to be killed if irreconcilable, recruited into existing armies or turned into civilians with land grants. Non-warrior males from conquered territories generally resume their existence as just another group of tax-paying civilians (i.e. sheep to be sheared).

    • Agree: Twinkie
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Anonymous
  53. @Anonymous

    Well Clovis migration is thought to be around 11000 BC but we have archaeological evidence people were here as far back as 16000 BC and beyond.

    Clovis cultural artifacts are not present prior to 11k or so.

    No remaining trace is left of any other peoples that were here before Clovis, unless you count maybe some melanesian traces in the Amazon.

    • Replies: @Anon
  54. @Counterinsurgency

    Clovis was the asian immigrants (as far as anyone can tell). They killed off the paleo-indians (whatever the hell they were).

  55. Old fogey says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    Many thanks for reminding everyone about the asteroid impact in Greenland, which undoubtedly affected a good portion of the Northern Hemisphere. The Younger Dryas was not a comfortable time for human beings.

  56. HA says:
    @AndrewR

    “all the conquered men are either exiled, killed or enslaved”

    This assumes that they weren’t slaves or peasants previously. If they were, there would be no pressing need to slaughter them and thereby deprive the conquerors of the labor needed to work the fields and produce the wealth that was likely a major reason for invading in the first place. Slaves/serfs/peasants are pretty much interchangeable cattle as far as the elites are concerned.

    It may well be that most of the conquered warriors and nobles were removed from the gene pool, save for the younger males who were adopted, but the vast majority of the local populace (during the Middle Ages, about 85% of Europe’s inhabitants were peasants) would have likely stayed put.

  57. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Nope. There is no inner party.

    Hide the book. Hurry! No coincidence. 1933. 1966. Numerology. What happened in 33?

  58. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Why would the spread of HBD lead to Zionization outside of Israel?

    It won’t necessarily but it could. If human groups are indeed different, then diversity will lead to dramatic, even devastating, changes to society. If blacks are tougher and meaner, then more of them will lead to criminalization of society, like in Brazil. If Jews smarter and have more drive, letting them into your nation and the policy of colorblind meritocracy will lead to rise of Jews, and then Jews might be hostile and subvert your nation. It was done to Palestinians, and now it’s being done to whites. If Muslims are inbred and have lower IQ and host a host of personality problems, it’s not a good idea to let too many in. If Mexicans are resigned and mediocre, they will remain in in the lower classes and vote for the party that offers them more stuff. Since the global elitists offer the immigrant-groups and lower elements More Stuff, the rising tide of color will vote for the globo-oligarchs waging war on national identity and national economy.

    So, far, anti-HBD and racial equality myth have fooled a lot of people that non-whites will become just like whites in the West. Or that with a little more help, black Africa will become Wakanda-ish like Singapore. Since all people are equally promising in every endeavor, we should all be interchangeable globo-homo citizens of the world.

    But knowing HBD means your people are distinct and possess more of certain traits that made your society the way it is. Your people have certain advantages, certain disadvantages. If only ideology or creed determines societies, all Christian societies should be the same. But consider the difference between Scandinavian Christians and African Christians. Consider how communism played out differently among Europeans, Asians, Africans, and etc.

    Now, HBD itself doesn’t assure anything. Jews know the truth of HBD, at least privately among themselves, but they also possess an aggressive spirit. That’s why Jared Diamond is all about use of DNA tests to see who’s a real Jew to qualify for immigration to Israel.
    The difference between Judaism and Christianity/Islam is that the former says God chose His favorite people whereas Christianity and Islam says YOU get to choose God. Jews believe that the one and only God chose them above all people. Universal faiths say any pagan or infidel can choose God and become part of the spiritual family. Judaism is a stronger idea because it says God chose the Jews. It was not the decision of man(as among Christians and Muslims) but the decision of God Himself. Most Jews are now secular but their stronger historical and tribal sense fills them with much grit, drive, and ambition. This is why HBD in the hands of Jews has led to such concentrations of Jewish power and the rise of Israel.

    Even though HBD as an idea points the way, whether a people will go in that direction or not will depend on their agency and drive. Notice that several people can share the same idea, but some act on it while most don’t. Some are more active and driven while others just don’t want to bother with it EVEN IF they do know. Most Mexicans are passive and resigned. They come to the US not out of some great ambition but because life is easier. That’s about it. Once they have the basics, they just want to drink Corona beer with lime and make taco.

    In contrast, Jews have great drive. They pulled off the impossible in reviving the nation of Israel that hadn’t existed for 2000 yrs. They had an idea of becoming the elite of US, made the most powerful people on Earth, the Wasps. And Jews did it because they made themselves do it. They had tremendous agency, an idea that nothing gets done unless YOU do it(or manipulate others to do it for you). Jews believe they must rule because they are special and the best. But paradoxically, Jews can pull this off ONLY IF they fool us that we are all equal. Being ‘citizens of the world’, we lower our tribal guard and hug everyone, and then all the world becomes open to globalist penetration and takeover. Because Jews rule globalism, triumph of globalism means the power of guys like Soros and Michael Bloomberg and Google guys.

    Take the movie TRUE GRIT by the Coens. Justice in the movie isn’t assured. The girl’s father was killed, but most of the law is busy with other stuff and not interested. She gets ‘justice’ only because she’s so driven, stubborn, insistent, and fanatical. She makes it happen. And Jews got ‘sand’, the grit thing or gritz. Even though European Christians were more active and driven than most peoples, Jews were even more so. Christianity tells people that God is ruler of all peoples and will eventually take care of everything. So, even if one does nothing(and is meek), God will eventually take care of things and favor the good over evil. In contrast, Judaism says God chosen Jews to be a special people, and Jews better use all their wit, smarts, and drive to make it happen. God chose the Jews but cannot make it happen for Jews unless Jews do it for themselves.

    So, even though HBD points the way, it is not enough. Knowing is not enough. The future depends on feelers and doers, on those who not only know but feel they must act on what they know.
    It is such drive that makes HBD subjective than merely objective. Objective HBD doesn’t favor any particular race. It is just a rational means to study humanity and notice the differences. Any people can partake of HBD research/discourse and learn stuff on a scientific and rational level. Objective HBD lacks direction. But HBD + pride of identity means the use of HBD to maximize the power of one’s own group. In Israel, Jews understand that Jewish Only Immigration and Closed Borders to goyim is good for Jewish Power. In goy nations, Jews know they can gain more influence if goyim give up national identity and become frivolous fools like Justin Trudeau or Paul Ryan. For Jews, HBD is a very subjective affair. Of course, they will not admit it and just dish out the same old crap of Stephen Jay Gould. But within their circle, they know.

  59. baythoven says:
    @Anonymous

    J. Ross is right. Immigrants to America in the 1800’s were a net benefit, to the country and to the founding stock. Though I would add that some peoples made a more positive contribution than others. Those flooding the cities — largely Irish, Italian, Jewish — were, shall we say, a mixed bag. But those that helped settle the northern plains — mainly Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Czechs — were a great boon to our country.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  60. robwin says:
    @Anonymous

    I recall when ultra Liberal RINO John Lindsay dropped the W and used ASP instead. If I recall correctly he believed that acronym more correctly conveyed the nature of whites. The MSM was totally delighted with the change.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  61. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Redneck farmer

    He meant “correctly used” — an autist’s tic, conflating use with correct use to write out error. I once did that and am tempted again because of an increasing tendency, probably by young people who grew up with autocorrect and never learned to care about spelling, to write the wrong homophone.

  62. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Johann Ricke

    What time period is this? Isn’t it probable that the much earlier conquerers weren’t doing the same thing as Romans and Persians? And if this is what they were doing, where did the genes go?

  63. HA says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    “Killing the men and taking the women seems to be the case in Spain when the Yamna arrived four millennia ago, and also in Medellin, Colombia,”

    The study you linked to specifically noted that Medellin was an outlier, and therefore not to be taken as representative of a general pattern:

    the admixture patterns reported here for Medellin can not be taken to represent country-wide patterns of Colombian genetic ancestry. Indeed, studies on the genetic ancestry of Colombians sampled from different regions of the country often yield very different results

    Moreover, as noted in the paper, Colombia was chosen in the first place partly due to the anomalously high admixture of European/NativeAmerican/African genes, so in that sense, the study group is an outlier of an outlier.

    Finally, the paper notes that not only is the European contribution favors the Y-dna component, the same is true (albeit to a lesser extent) for the African contribution.

  64. I’ve made this joke before, but what the NYT is advocating is as if you forced chemists to answer every question by saying “Matter is a bunch of substances, all mixed up. It’s pretty much all the same stuff.”

  65. @Anon

    They probably killed all the women who were not within the first five years or so of their menarche.

    Probably?

    Go read the book of Numbers, man.

  66. Flip says:
    @Anon

    Can’t say that I am too sorry for those Polish women…

  67. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AndrewR

    Traditionally, when a territory is conquered, all the conquered men are either exiled, killed or enslaved. The net effect is the same: their genetic line in that territory ends.

    True. That’s why if you go to India today you’ll find there are no Indians there. They’re all Englishmen.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  68. Anonymous[372] • Disclaimer says:
    @Johann Ricke

    That depends on how numerous the invaders are. A small invader elite will have a different attitude to the defeated people than an entire mass-migrating nation.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  69. Anon[268] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lars Porsena

    Yes. The Melanesian stuff is weird, and I can’t help think it’s some sort of mathematical glitch in the gene analysis, but who knows.

    But Monte Verde is a pretty strong pre-Clovis find. And David Reich in his book writes about the DNA studies that have made it clear that Clovis First is wrong. Eske Willerslev studied a Clovis era infant from Montana whose genes are a mix of Clovis and a ghost population that had to have preceded Clovis. Tribes stopped cooperating after this, because the idea of a slaughtered ghost people didn’t jibe with their no-word-for-war-use-all-the-buffalo image of themselves.

    Reading between the lines, Reich seems to imply in his book that research is proceding apace, but results are not being published. There is a whisper network to exchange results among researchers and take dibs on findings, but everything is sort of embargoed until a solution can be found to the recacitrant Indian Tribes who object to research.

  70. RonaldB says:
    @Anon

    Here’s a big problem.

    The facts you say they are trying to suppress are not just some esoteric knowledge, but powerful determinants of the future. If the facts of genetic differentiation are true, even if the elites gain the power you say they want, they will be in charge of a world vastly different from the one they are used to. It will be like the fabulously rich aristocrats of Saudi Arabia who have to maintain a facade of being comfortable in a medieval, repressive society, but have to periodically fly off the London to cavort with prostitutes and drugs.

    So, I offer the separate hypothesis that the leftist elites and high-level politicians simply don’t have the intelligence or curiosity to understand the findings of genetic determination. The politicians who don’t have children and never will, like Macron and Merkel, may indeed not care what happens after they leave office, but I doubt if these leaders have the curiosity or interest to actually understand anything outside of political activity.

    I think there is a further drive, that of pure destruction. The cultural Marxists take as their first principle, that Western civilization and peoples should be destroyed. But, while they have a strong drive for personal power, I am not convinced their actions are based on a conspiratorial movement to gain long-term control. I just don’t think their planning goes that far ahead.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
  71. @Anonymous

    That depends on how numerous the invaders are. A small invader elite will have a different attitude to the defeated people than an entire mass-migrating nation.

    Doesn’t matter. The king or chief of the conquering tribe is always looking for new allies/subordinates to balance his existing rivals within his tribe/nation. Because no king is truly ever secure from challenges within, which are more insidious and less predictable than anything from without. The fates of Alexander’s mother, wife and progeny are cases in point. Roman emperors had similar issues.

    External enemies never come out of the blue. Internal enemies always do. It’s a lot like that Goodfellas scene when Henry Hill heaved a sigh of relief upon realizing he wasn’t being grabbed by fellow wise guys:

    For a second, I thought I was dead, but when I heard all the noise I knew they were cops. Only cops talk that way. If they had been wise guys, I wouldn’t have heard a thing. I would’ve been dead.

  72. RonaldB says:
    @Anonymous

    I presume by HBD, anon means the knowledge of real, significant and indelible genetic difference between peoples.

    If, say, the common people in a society understood that differences between peoples were indelible, and that the traits they see in an alien society people are fleeing with be brought by the alien people with them, the native common people will oppose the immigration of different people.

    The immigration of different people is what I presume anon means by “Palestinization”.

    Therefore, a cult wishing to dilute and destroy the West will object to the spreading of knowledge of HBD. Making this knowledge common will cause resistance to what they wish to accomplish.

  73. AndrewR says:
    @dfordoom

    I don’t understand your choice to use sarcasm here. It was needlessly hostile and unconducive to constructive dialogue.

    The Aryans obviously were unable to conquer the entire subcontinent, but whiter Indians can mostly trace their Aryanness to their patrilineal line.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  74. bomag says:
    @El Dato

    LOL

    Fuuu …. that writing is a hard slog.

    Torturous; the usual boilerplate announcing that White privilege is solely responsible for technical progress in the last 500 years; now that we are finally ending White privilege, we can start enjoying life without the burden of technical progress. Or something.

  75. Anonymous[710] • Disclaimer says:
    @robwin

    “Anglo Saxons” is perfectly serviceable.

  76. Anonymous[710] • Disclaimer says:
    @baythoven

    Immigrants to America in the 1800’s were a net benefit, to the country and to the founding stock.

    Uh, how were they a benefit to the native stock?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  77. No. What Reich makes clear is that in his view, the notion of a unitary purity to any racial configuration is unlikely given the depth of genetic mixture.

    So an argument based on white superiority is to misconstrue the genetic evidence.

  78. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AndrewR

    I don’t understand your choice to use sarcasm here. It was needlessly hostile and unconducive to constructive dialogue.

    I apologise.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  79. AndrewR says:
    @dfordoom

    I’m way over it, but many of us are too quick to resort to sarcasm. I myself slip up from time to time. Just understanding that it’s a bad habit is the first step

  80. AndrewR says:
    @Anonymous

    The urban immigrants were net neutral, at best, but what would the US be today without the Central and Northern Europeans who settled the unpopulated land in the Midwest and beyond?

  81. MEH 0910 says:

  82. Lagertha says:
    @RonaldB

    you’re wrong. Why: people are egoists and evil. People who are not evil want to live peacefully and share their goods inorder to survive. People like you are why someone 20 yrs old hates the guts out of every government (or private fucking banker whores) stooge – you are all stooges. The next generation who is high on marijuana and shots of whiskey is gonna just cut your heads off some night, and forget what they did the next morning. That is your reality, if you right now, you think you are in the power level?. Heaven help you when the kids mow you down like a piece of garbage too high on the course!, hahaaaa.

  83. Lagertha says:
    @Twinkie

    I was trying to make him find his balls. I am sick and tired of nicey-nice maneuver to deal with people who hate you – you know exactly what I mean. So, whatever…I do not have a reputation that must be protected! I am a vagabond, useless POS.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?
The sources of America’s immigration problems—and a possible solution
The evidence is clear — but often ignored