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NYT: Ferguson Effect Not Real, of Course, But We Should be Concerned About Not Enough Law & Order in Brooklyn
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From the New York Times local news section:

As Shootings Spike in Northern Brooklyn, N.Y.P.D. and Prosecutors Collide
A progressive district attorney’s efforts to give offenders a second chance have upset the police, who are struggling to contain gun violence.

By Ali Watkins, Aug. 8, 2019

On the morning of the New York Police Department’s July crime briefing, the department’s highest ranking officer, Chief Terence A. Monahan, was frustrated.

For months, his officers had wrestled with a stubborn spike in gun violence in northern Brooklyn, and by Chief Monahan’s assessment, the statistics were not his department’s fault. He took the microphone and aimed a public swipe at Brooklyn’s district attorney, Eric Gonzalez.

“Our police officers are out there taking guns off the streets,” Chief Monahan said. “We are still seeing pleas that result in little or no jail time.”

The salvo was a rare public glimpse of a monthslong spat between the police and Mr. Gonzalez over the alarming rise in shootings and murders in a small cluster of neighborhoods in Brooklyn. Shootings are up 10 percent across northern Brooklyn for the year, and in some neighborhoods — like East New York and Crown Heights — they have doubled.

Important people live in New York City, so NYC has been immune to the Ferguson Effect, except for a few months after in late 2014-early 2015 after the loosies vendor died. But then a BLM terrorist murdered two NYPD officers in 12/14. The NYPD revolted against the leftist Mayor, and top cop Bill Bratton didn’t do much to prop up the mayor, so Di Blasio eventually backed down and the NYPD, mollified, left the donut shop and went back to doing what it does best.

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  1. important people live in chicago too, so what’s the difference?

    i guess chicago doesn’t want, or isn’t willing to deploy, a police state.

    NYC is much less dangerous today, because it’s a police state. having a police state does work, if you want to reduce crime a lot. but you have to have, you know, everything that comes along with a police state.

  2. @prime noticer

    important people live in chicago too, so what’s the difference?

    A lot less than in New York City.

    A guy I knew played for the Yankees a quarter of a century ago. He was the only Yankee to live in NYC that year. Now, I believe, a lot of the ballplayers live in the city. The number of VIPs who live in NYC these days is huge.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @Not Raul
  3. Dan Hayes says:


    As you pointed out some time ago the Dinkins-era crime wave was effectively stopped by locking up the perps for enough time that testosterone-depleted upon release they would do little societal damage.

    Unfortunately the equation has changed with the toxic alliance of SJWs and aggrieved majority minorities. When the inevitable economic downturn occurs the manure will hit the fan big time. But when that occurs the SJWs/majority minorities combo will not countenance any roll-back of their judicial delusions.

  4. @prime noticer

    Well, the de facto ethnic cleansing of native-born African-Americans has been a big, unnoticed factor.

    • Replies: @Discordiax
    , @Ed
  5. @Steve Sailer

    The number of VIPs who live in NYC these days is huge.

    Yeah, Jeffrey Epstein for one. And lots of his friends for two.

    • LOL: Twodees Partain
    • Replies: @Lurker
  6. It’s probably herd-culling time since we have so few casualties when waging war. I’d say forbid killing cops but let the perp on perp violence do its magic.

    OT: Who died and made Tucker Carlson boss of the conservatives? And did he buy his way into FOX being as he’s more snark than talent?

    • Troll: Lurker
  7. Anon[286] • Disclaimer says:

    “….police, who are struggling to contain gun violence”

    The noun, adverb, verb, and direct object of that sentence are arranged to seemingly imply that if the police were just better at what they do, one supposes that they could easily contain some Brooklynites from shooting and killing othee Brooklynites. No fault accrued to the shooters or victims (who in some cases stole from or screwed over said shooters).

    I genuinely despise the NYT.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    , @EdwardM
  8. @prime noticer

    NYC is much less dangerous today, because it’s a police state.

    NYC became less dangerous because Giuliani instituted stop-and-frisk, and cleaned up the streets. Bloomberg continued most of his policies, and among other things billionaires across the globe coincidentally decided they just had to have a condo in Manhattan. The money has poured in like a force of nature.

    DeBlasio has been backtracking on the law-and-order thing, and wouldn’t you know it, crime is creeping back up.

    Chicago was never anywhere near as important as New York, and now it’s almost dispensable. I say this as someone who always liked Chicago and found its residents particularly friendly. But the insults keep coming: not only is Chicago no longer the “Second City” — that’s Los Angeles now — but it’s no longer even the third largest consolidated metro area. Washington-Baltimore has passed it this year and the SF Bay Area will be next, likely by next year’s census. Dallas and Houston aren’t far behind. Within a few years (note the growth rates) Chicago will be the 7th largest CSA, at best. That’ll probably sting a few egos in the City of Big Shoulders.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Lagertha
  9. J.Ross says:

    Fear not, citizens! Someone in Derb’s ancestral fief has found and activated the Lament Configuration! The Cenobites will protect us!

  10. @Mr McKenna

    Giuliani instituted stop-and-frisk

    Did he? Or did Bloomberg really up that?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @Sam Haysom
  11. @Steve Sailer

    I always think of Giuliani and Bloomberg as being like Ruth and Gehrig in the Yankees lineup.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  12. @Buzz Mohawk

    Ha! I love that! To Steve: New Yorkers in the 90s always credited Giuliani, and I just looked it up and yes, it appears to be largely if not entirely a Rudy Innovation.

    Of course, since RG has been defending DT these past few years, his name will be forever divorced from anything Righteous. Which works out fine, since S&F is now considered very, very racist. As is any anti-crime measure, actually.

    • Replies: @David
  13. Lurker says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Very Important Pederasts. Allegedly.

    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Prester John
  14. Alfa158 says:

    You are actually understating how vile the NYT is. Their verbiage suggests that the cops are doing a poor job, not of containing Brooklynites from shooting and killing other Brooklynites, but of containing sentient guns from shooting and killing Brooklynites.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  15. @prime noticer

    important people live in chicago too, so what’s the difference?

    i guess chicago doesn’t want, or isn’t willing to deploy, a police state.

    I’ll concur with the other folks that the people there are much less important. But the other thing is it is a more neatly segregated place. Always was. And now some of the nearer in projects–closer to the important people–were dynamited during the Obama era and their residents shipped out to diversify Dubuque. Meanwhile the Mexicans keep coming in.

    So most of these guns that keep going off are down south. And with the exception of Hyde Park around the University of Chicago there are zero important people down there.

    This is in contrast to say Brooklym were there are semi-important–or young and eventually might be important–people and not to far away people who need policing. Not to mention Manhattan chock full of people who consider themselves the world’s most important people.

  16. @miss marple

    I have my reservations about Carlson (especially, that he’s a rude interviewer), but he’s doing important work raising issues no one — even on Fox — dares raise.

  17. El Dato says:

    Not sentient guns. Gun gas! Stubborn gun gas!

    Concentrating in overpoliced areas and tragic hollows.

    • Replies: @GermanReader2
  18. Dan Hayes says:
    @International Jew

    International Jew:

    One slipup, real or imagined, and Tucker will be heave hoed from Fox as Murdock’s sons are Ivanka / Jared wannabees.

    BTW, I respectfully disagree: at most Tucker is a spirited, not rude, interviewer. Anyway let us enjoy Tucker until such time as he is replaced by somebody of outstanding moral character, somebody like Shep Smith.

  19. @Alfa158

    Their verbiage tries to stay as far away from the reality of it as possible. The police there are not trying to get some violent unruly blacks from killing. No, they are battling that stubborn spike on a graph.

  20. … and the NYPD, mollified, left the donut shop and went back to doing what it does best.

    What’s that, turning the streets of NYC into a free-fire zone? Considering the number of shots it typically takes NYC cops to take down a perp, I would not say it is marksmanship.

  21. @El Dato

    You both do not get it right. The reason for the violence is violent dirt!

  22. I’m confused. Why on earth are you guys all rattling on about guns and crime and Brooklyn and Chicago and Tucker and Giuliani, when the most obvious key issue clearly is… we desperately need to build more Holocaust museums!!!

  23. @Redneck farmer

    mass incarceration played a role there too.
    fewer black males to outnumber.
    less crime to keep out the non-riffraff

  24. David says:
    @Mr McKenna

    Under Giuliani, there was very little stop and frisk. I don’t remember it coming up in the news. In 2002, the year after Giuliani and the earliest year Wikipedia has numbers for, there were just under 100,000 “terry stops.” At the height, a few years later (still under Bloomberg), there were well over half a million annually. It’s really a Bloomberg thing.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  25. Anon[136] • Disclaimer says:

    Re the loosies guy, for whom a cop must be fired, it seems … still dragging on:

    There was no chokehold:

    This cop calls it a headlock. It was in the form of a stranglehold, not a chokehold, but wasn’t compressed. It was basically just a hook to topple him off balance and get him to the ground.

    So what killed him? The New York Times editorial board revealed it in a variation of their upside down articles:

    It Wasn’t Just the Chokehold

    Let me correct their title: It wasn’t the chokehold at all, and actually there wasn’t even a chokehold.

    Basically, they suffocated him by laying him down on his belly. This can kill fat people. It killed him. So the only question in my mind is whether that specific cop had training about this danger.

    Besides the banned chokehold used by Officer Daniel Pantaleo, who brought Mr. Garner down, throwing a beefy arm around his neck, there was lethal danger in the way Mr. Garner was subdued — on his stomach, with a pile of cops on his back.

    This breaks a basic rule of safe arrests, especially for people who, like Mr. Garner, are overweight and have medical problems like asthma. When the New York medical examiner’s office ruled Mr. Garner’s death a homicide, it cited “compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”

    As early as 1995, a Department of Justice bulletin on “positional asphyxia” quoted the New York Police Department’s guidelines on preventing deaths in custody. <“As soon as the subject is handcuffed, get him off his stomach. Turn him on his side or place him in a seated position.”

    As Michael Baden, a former chief medical examiner of New York City, told The Times: “Obese people especially, lying face down, prone, are unable to breathe when enough pressure is put on their back. The pressure prevents the diaphragm from going up and down, and he can’t inhale and exhale.”

    They are still mentioning the chokehold here, but the medical examiner’s report, which also mentions a chokehold, specifically says that there was no crushing of the esophagus nor bruising of the neck around the arteries. Without that it’s just a headlock and no constraint of air can happen.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  26. RobUK says:

    Important people live in New York City

    Including the New York Times, I assume, hence the “alarming rise”.

  27. Ed says:
    @Redneck farmer

    Right. I think 1/2 of NYC’s black population are immigrants or their kids. This is not to say black immigrants aren’t involved in crime but they appear to do so at lower rates than US origin or ADOS blacks.

    Meanwhile in Chicago the black population consists of descendants of migrants from Deep South Mississippi. Evidently they were especially backwards compared to blacks from other regions in the south.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  28. anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve Sailer tells it short and sweet, he tells the truth, tells it like it is:

    “Important people live in New York City, so NYC has been immune to the Ferguson Effect, except for a few months after in late 2014-early 2015 after the loosies vendor died. But then a BLM terrorist murdered two NYPD officers in 12/14. The NYPD revolted against the leftist Mayor, and top cop Bill Bratton didn’t do much to prop up the mayor, so Di Blasio eventually backed down and the NYPD, mollified, left the donut shop and went back to doing what it does best.”

    I respond:

    I wish so much to be able to meet the rare, honest few writers from California – Steve Sailer, Allan Wall, David Cole.

    Seems like Amren in Middle TN is currently the only place for dissident Right people to get together and they might end.

    Otherwise we are alone and I don’t know how long the dissedent right will be alive on the Internet – maybe in Hungary or Poland.

  29. TWS says:
    @prime noticer

    Yeah that’s not a police state.

  30. The NYT has been running a series of articles about what’s happened out there in Nowheresville (AKA Ferguson, Missouri) since that famous “unarmed black teenager” was tragically slain by a policeman while strolling home after a robbery.
    Today’s installment (with links to previous articles a little ways down):

    The Lives of Ferguson Activists, Five Years Later
    The energy of the street protests has faded, but it carries on in national conversations about race, and in the lives of the people who were there.

    Surprise, surprise, it turns out that these “Ferguson activists” are morons, grifters, and loons.
    Pretty funny!

  31. @miss marple

    OT: Who died and made Tucker Carlson boss of the conservatives?

    Most of the so-called conservatives were, and still are, proud Never Trumpers. DJT is not my favorite, but he’s all I’ve got on my side. I am not asking the NTs to support him, but they could at least maintain a respectful silence, especially give the lunacy that is the current Democratic party.

    Tucker stepped into a vacancy and has been advocating policies that help American citizens, much like Steve.

  32. @International Jew

    Carlson, rude? My, the Overton window certainly has shifted; you tell me in which direction.

    When I think of rude talking heads, Chris Matthews is about numero uno on my list. Polite interviewer ? –hard to say. Superficially, one might argue Charlie Rose, but I’d say the borders of Uncle Charlie’s plantation were so firmly pre-established before his shows, that being rude was a moot question.

  33. Bugg says:

    I worked in that office as an Assistant DA, first under Liz Holtzman, then Joe Hynes. What ever else you could say about either, if you got caught with a gun in Brooklyn, you either took a plea with 1 year in jail, or you went to trial and rolled the dice. There were no exceptions. At least then liberals understood anyone walking around with an illegal gun was a very bad thing.

    Diversion programs for minor offenses and especially low level drug offenders make a lot of sense. And while you always have backsliding, many people who do stupid things in their teens and early 20s wise up and go on to productive lives. But most of the kids with guns are idiot gangbangers, They are not going to learn anything other than they got away with it.

    At a loss why after the Brownsville Brooklyn mass shooting there wasn’t as much of an outcry. Why is this thing not like the others? Oh, right, no white guy. In fact Da Community, rather than being upset that the shooter is still at large, is now suing NYPD after the crowd at this disaster of a party would not let NYPD do a proper investigation .

    Problem with NYPD is SQF did go too far. Under Bloomberg and his commissioner, Ray Kelly, they started encouraging cops to stop a lot of people to show they were doing something, probable cause for the stop be damned. So you had precinct commanders trying to impress City Hall with more enforcement even though there wasn’t much more you could do, and some inner city mayhem is never going away short of marshall law and a division of Marines. And some commanders cooked the books to advance their careers. Many of those SQF stops were pointless, and they gave goo goo liberals the tools to win in federal court. Was a point NYPD could have eased off a bit, and instead they overdid things.

    There was a dramatic drop in crime due to Compstat enforcement. But some of the drop was also due to the street drug of choice going from crack cocaine to opioids. And the “Freakonomics” guys posited it also corresponded to easy availability of free abortion on demand in NYC beginning roughly 15 years prior to the drop; since each year more African-American babies are aborted than are born live in NYC .

  34. Not Raul says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Also, a large percentage of the important people in the Chicago area live outside city limits, in places like Oak Park, Evanston, Highland Park, Wilmette, Kenilworth, Glencoe, Winnetka, and Glenview.

    There are different rules for places like that than for non-elite areas.

  35. Not Raul says:

    I’m generally impressed by the African immigrants I see in my part of the World. They seem to be courteous, diligent people. Perhaps Ghana, Ethiopia, and Eritrea tend to send the USA better people than some other places do.

  36. @Lurker

    Yeah–and in Westchester County too.

  37. Forbes says:

    Fortunately, the Queens DA candidate (endorsed by Occasionally-Crazy) who campaigned to follow the de-incarceration path blazed by the Brooklyn DA, lost in the recent primary to a mainstream candidate. November elections being a formality in the Democrat bastion of NYC (other than Staten Island).

  38. Native (white) New Yorker here. For what it’s worth, all the African Americans I have known in NYC are descended from South Carolinians or are from the Islands. I definitely have the impression that the blacks from South Carolina were better educated and “classier” than the ones from Mississippi.

    And the ones from the Islands (West Indies/Caribbean) are immigrants who, although black, definitely share some of the usual upward-striving attitudes of all immigrants. Their children may regress somewhat, but still are not “ghetto,” (as one Haitian immigrant referred to native-born blacks to me, with total contempt in her voice.)

    The West Indian immigrants have an unbelievable contempt for American blacks. One told me that her mother calls them “cockroaches.”

    • Replies: @Bugg
  39. @Steve Sailer

    Bloomberg’s innovation was to shift stop and frisk from a community specific tactic of community policy/ broken windows policing into a more general method of gun control.

    In Bloomberg’s term stop and frisks increased five fold from 100K to 500K. When Wilson envisioned stop and frisk as part of Broken Windows policing it really was a method to escalate a nuisance violation into a full stop in order to justify jamming up a potential hoodlum. These could be done pretty causally and generally the searchee had done something to deserve like hop a turnstile (it’s not a coincidence that Bratton’s first job for the NYPD was a transit cop chief).The idea was you were going after people who were annoying even to black people so that stop and frisk could actually increase good will with the community. In in many cases they weren’t even a Terry stop because the searchee was being detained for a violation not reasonable suspicion.

    Under Bloomberg it really did shift into frisking every 20th black guy and see if he had a gun. It’s pretty interesting to listen when Bratton talks about stop and frisk he’s always insistent that what it grew into is not what Wilson or he had intended and was frustrated that it continued to be used in low crime areas as a means of wink wink gun control.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  40. Bugg says:
    @Amused Observer

    See lots of GoodWhites and even Orthodox Jews who use Caribbean ladies as their baby sitters. You never see them hiring an American black girl. All kinds of castes exist among the Coalition of the Fringes. Puerto Ricans look down on Dominicans; we’re Americans!They both look down at Mexicans, who dislike Guatamalans and Salvadorans. Caribbean and American blacks dislike each other. Crops up in every political race in the inner city, with invariably an American vs. an islander, both black. Everyone looks down on Haitians; heard Dominicans call them upright rats. Cubans believe , with some justification , they are better than them all because they are in fact the most Euro. Recall when Cookie Rojas was managing the Royals he took great offense because he considered himself to be Spanish. One Cuban guy I know is a retired nuclear reactor specialist who was in charge of Indian Point for a few decades. Picture a NASA scientist who looks and talks like Ricardo Montablan.

    • Replies: @Kron Krenjamin
    , @Anonymous
  41. Anon[183] • Disclaimer says:

    The comments on the NYT “Ferguson activists” article almost all say that the article is bullshit.
    That’s also pretty funny!

  42. @David

    Yeah, I read that in Wiki too. The other major source Google likes on this is the Washington Post. Don’t know if you lived in NY at the time, but the consensus was virtually unanimous that Giuliani ‘cleaned up the streets’ and it’s beyond question that under his reign crime declined rapidly. That doesn’t tell us much about causation, of course. There’s no question that S&F made the news much more under Bloomberg. It’s strange that he caught less flak than Rudy did.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @David
  43. @Sam Haysom

    Under Bloomberg it really did shift into frisking every 20th black guy and see if he had a gun.

    Sounds so horrible, doesn’t it? If we implemented it nationally, crime would nearly vanish. We could frisk some white guys too, right? But I’m also leery of ever giving more power to the government.

  44. @Bugg

    Rojas never managed the royals. You guys need to slow it down a little bit that boomer narcissism and penchant for showing off and talking too much doesn’t mix very well with the early stage dementia.

    • Replies: @Bugg
  45. eah says:

    • Replies: @EdwardM
  46. eah says:

    Butting in on the NYT.

  47. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:

    Puerto Ricans look down on Dominicans;

    Isn’t it the other way around?

  48. J.Ross says:
    @miss marple

    All the other public conservatives.

  49. J.Ross says:

    >there was no chokehold
    The signature of the current class of the lyingpress is to superficially deny debunked lies (so they can claim to be telling the truth) while constantly re-iterating the technically denied lie.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  50. Lagertha says:
    @Mr McKenna

    Giuliani started the “stop & frisk/broken windows/2-3 cops together on a beat.” At that time, Democrats were loathe to admit it that it worked. Bloomberg followed Rudy’s system because he is a short, non-threatening guy, and as a billionaire, was loathe to think that a scrappy Italian street guy/mayor, who was not as rich as he is, had “fixed” NYC crime, finally. Living in NYC in the 80’s, it was a shit-hole city….where guys like Goetze just unloaded on some youts on a subway.

  51. Anonymous[332] • Disclaimer says:

    to superficially deny debunked lies (so they can claim to be telling the truth) while constantly re-iterating the technically denied lie.


    • Replies: @J.Ross
  52. @Mr McKenna

    My impression is that Bloomberg greatly upped Stop and Frisk.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  53. Bugg says:
    @Kron Krenjamin

    Happened while he was coaching for the Marlins. Point stands.

  54. MBlanc46 says:
    @prime noticer

    Almost all the killing in Chicago occurs in the South and West Side ghettos. Some of it is starting to seep out into white areas, but as long as it’s largely blacks killing blacks, most people just ignore it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  55. Anonymous[302] • Disclaimer says:

    Almost all the killing in Chicago occurs in the South and West Side ghettos. Some of it is starting to seep out into white areas, but as long as it’s largely blacks killing blacks, most people just ignore it.

    Is it on the increase?

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  56. Up here in what used to be the Whitopia of Canada, there were 17 people shot in Toronto in 14 separate incidents last weekend. The mayor of Toronto wants the Feds to step in and for everybody to “put aside partisanship”, which means let’s have more gun control.

    Yet every time, and I mean every time, I cross into Canada, I get asked if I have a weapon. So far, I have resisted the temptation to answer, “Full or semi automatic?”

  57. J.Ross says:

    Like how they were briefly mentioning “the investigation into Russian interference in elections” as often as possible, and in the middle of it very quickly quoted John McCain admitting to nothingburgerness. Or briefly invoking or namedropping young unarmed black victims of police shootings without the crucial details about these victims having assaulted police officers.

  58. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @prime noticer

    NYC isn’t a police state for, shall we say, people who live there without government assistance. They may put their bags through an X-ray machine at big office buildings, but that’s about it.

  59. MBlanc46 says:

    It has been quite bad for a number of years, since the COD “decapitated” the gangs, eliminating such control as there was in them.

  60. EdwardM says:

    Relatedly, from an article from the Times on 08/10 about Zimbabwe’s new president:

    Mr. Mnangagwa has already removed some constraints on foreign investors and white farmers who lost land under Mr. Mugabe.

    Those unfortunate hapless white farmers just lost their land. Woe is them!

    The upshot of the article is that, shockingly, the new leadership in Zimbabwe is just as bad, or worse, than the old leadership.

  61. EdwardM says:

    I think Darren Wilson has a legitimate defamation claim here.

  62. David says:
    @Mr McKenna

    I used to ride the 6 train from Astor Place to 86th for work. Before Giuliani, the ride was a circus of homeless preaching panhandlers selling “Street News.” The very first morning of Giuliani’s administration, it stopped, just like a switch had been flicked.

    Washington Square under Dinkins was an open air drug market. The dealers literally shouted their wears across the park.

    Giuliani stopped that by making it known that the cops wouldn’t mess with dealers who conducted their business clandestinely using beepers and phones. Pretty soon, the dealers were quietly handing out business cards with names like “Hemp It Up.” It worked. Pretty soon, old ladies were walking to the corner store again, without backup.

    I was lucky enough to get to thank the Mayor personally for so dramatically improving the quality of my life. In an elevator at the Times Square Marriott. He shook my hand and said thanks, so did his girlfriend.

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