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The New York Times editorial “Europe Should See Refugees as a Boon, Not a Burden” has not struck a chord with NYT readers. None of the top 30 or more Reader’s Pick comments are supportive. Here are the top two dozen comments:

Maureen New York 4 hours ago
Why? There are large colonies of Muslims in France. They do not benefit France. Are they vibrant, welcoming communities or are they hostile, sullen crime ridden blights? Is that the Europe you want to see developed in the future?

Reply 84Recommend
Kevin Hill Miami 4 hours ago
Does the NYT Editorial Board EVER read their own readers’ comments, especially regarding immigration and migration?

Do they care that these sorts of open borders, naive editorials are infuriating to many liberal and left readers?

And why does the NYT print cropped, hand-picked, and outright agitprop photos trying to convince the unwary that most of these are middle class families when in fact the overwhelming majority seem to be young men of military age?

Seriously, I am wondering if there is a strategy here or if the NYT editors just don’t care, or just are this out of touch with their readers.

Reply 84Recommended
Const NY 3 hours ago
Honestly, I am not sure how you can say this will be boon and not a burden. Going back to past articles in your paper, I have read about the Muslim communities in France that have failed to assimilate instead living in slums. I have read in your paper the stories of young college graduates in Spain, France and other European countries that cannot find permanent work. The unemployment rate for this group is said to be well above 20%, yet to seem to think, that European countries can absorb hundreds of thousands or even millions of people. Finally, there have been the recent stories about the children of Muslim immigrants who have gone to Syria to fight with ISIS. How do you find this to be a boon?

Reply 81Recommended
Laura St. Paul 4 hours ago
Please stop telling Europe what to do from the NYT’s comfortable perch in Manhattan.

Reply 75Recommend
NYT Pick
Armando Cedillo Los Angeles 4 hours ago
Mass immigration certainly looks sexy on the spread sheets of multi-national corporations and tax collectors but there is a huge cultural and cost when millions of Muslims begin to embed themselves within secular Judeo-Christian nations. There is also an terrible environmental cost associated with endless population growth. Europe should take care of its own poor and dispossessed (of which there are millions) before acting as a safety valve for the failures of Africa and the Middle East. This editorial should be directed at the rulers of Saudi Arabia and Dubai.



Reply 72Recommended
European in NY New York, ny 4 hours ago
Dear Editorial Board:

Please take off your Polyanna glasses already!
Do you really believe that some obscure, unnamed “numerous studies” by think-tanks with vested interested or by nerdy scholars who only understand Europe in numbers, could ever know better that each EU sovereign state and its people? How arrogant!

Your insistence on this is preposterous and ignores the FACTS, and how the Muslim immigration failed to assimilate in Europe.

Once upon a time, when Times was a better newspaper, the studies about immigration (EU? American?) Big difference!) you quoted would have been named.

If EU will face a decline of population, each country can open the borders to European countries outside the EU, such as Ukraine, where they can find a pool of ethnically, culturally and religiously well-educated people, not import Middle East and its troubles.

If Arabs were the industrious people you claim, they would have been a boon to their own Middle East, Instead, they destroyed it.

More: Refugees claim a free apt, job, monthly well-fare, free education and healthcare, plus the right to bring in the wife, 5 children, and all the in-laws to whom each beleaguered EU tax payers must pay. In return, they bring radical jihadism, backwards views, hatred of free women,Jews, Catholics, Gays, a desire to outnumber the host country and to reinstall Sharia Law.

Please stop pretending you know better than each European country and citizen and stop pushing the EU toward suicide.

Reply 72Recommended
NYT Pick
Philip Pompano Beach, FL 4 hours ago
I think any country would be intimidated by a group of people who in general do not share their secular beliefs, coming in a mass of millions, and now starting to attempt to force their way in, if they are not allowed to enter in totally unlimited numbers. This is a cultural as well as an economic issue.

Reply 72Recommended
Rob Long Island 3 hours ago
The editorial staff of the Times must live on another planet. It must be fun to pick and choose the data you want. The staff should read the articles in their own paper about the ghetto like areas in France and Britain, framed with people who refuse to assimilate, learn the language, obey the laws, yet demand Sharia law, more welfare, persecute Jewish citizens and on and on.

Study after study has shown the illegal (pardon me, “undocumented”) immigrants in the United States are a net drain on our economy, costing $billions in education and health expenses. They depress wages of minority citizens, and take jobs away from them. People say these illegals only take jobs Americans don’t want, but how many illegal citizens work as roofers, plumbers, in factories.

Many legal businesses can not survive because they are priced out by competition that uses illegal labor.

The editorial staff should get its head out of the clouds and look at the real world.

Reply 71Recommended
EK Somerset, NJ 3 hours ago
Yes, I’m sure you’re right.

The unemployable, uneducated, unskilled, undisciplined, unruly, unmarried, and uninterested in the rule of law hordes are going to be as valuable as diamonds.

Surely these Muslim mobs will be more eager than anyone imagined to abandon their eighth century religious beliefs and primitive tribal associations in order to completely assimilate into the various European cultures they are violently demanding access to.

And most optimistically, surely there is not a single ISIS or Al Quaeda plant or cell in the entire lot, so we won’t ever have to worry about any terror attacks resulting from this completely chaotic rush over Europe’s borders.

What could possibly go wrong?

Reply 66Recommend
NYT Pick
MCS New York 3 hours ago
Would the NYT Editorial Board take on hundreds of new unskilled, uneducated journalists, and pay them a weekly salary, until one may, with some will and a lot of luck become a real attribute o the newspaper? That’s precisely what it is ;lecturing the E.U to do at a time when Globalism has decimated many economies of democracies in the west, countries that barely know how to keep their own citizens working, much less take on more. Let the rich Muslim countries take the refugees. Why is it always on the West to rescue the world to only be told ungratefully I might add, to stop medalling. No one is advocating xenophobia. I feel deeply for the plight of any person in such tragic circumstances. Yet, is it wrong to truthfully examine why these events are happening? Religion and the violent and inhumane behavior it cultivates, seems to be topical here yet no one will say it. Blame the west is always the easy way out.

Reply 66Recommended
smart fox Canada 3 hours ago
frankly, the condescending tone of NYT is getting annoying
and for the record, a chosen, well trained computer engineer may well generate revenues in excess of what he or she costs in various benefits… but there are already hundreds of thousands immigrants in Europe whose lack of education makes them poorly fit in a 21st century, training intensive economy for whom this is certainly not the case.
And for the record again, Denmark is not California, you can’t easily employ untrained people picking fruits …

Reply 63Recommended
Basic Human Being USA 3 hours ago
Naive, silly article that ignores the actual situation. The people in question are mostly Muslims, Muslims who will not take kindly to being told to be tolerant to gays, treating women like equals and separation of mosque and state.

Reply 63Recommended
Dana Norway 4 hours ago
Has the editorial board ever been to a norther European city? Unlike America where Latino immigrants work impossible hard jobs for low wages to provide the families with a better life – here hundreds of thousands of migrants support their families on generous government benefits while refusing to work the unskilled job opportunities that are available to newcomers with no local language skills. Being a welfare state – we continue to pay the family benefits and naively hope they will take the employment opportunities that are available and offered. The sink or swim system in America is much better at assimilating migrants. Why do you think these migrants are “fleeing” Turkey for Germany and Sweden? Good news travels fast.

Reply 61Recommended
Andrew W Florida 3 hours ago
The NYT conveniently conflates an orderly, filtered immigration (a boon to the economy) with a massive chaotic influx of (mostly) uneducated people of a radically different culture. That anyone could see this as a net positive (economically, culturally and socially) for the host country is a rather remarkable thing.

Reply 59Recommended
MFF Frankfurt, Germany 4 hours ago
I am in a kind of stupefied awe at the gall of thus editorial – of, indeed, the NYT’s entire slant regarding the refugees/migrants crisis from Syria. This newspaper’s omnipotent fingerpointing at Europe is incredible and unbelievable. I am a longtime NYT subscriber, I consider myself as close to a bleeding-heart liberal as one can be and yet the what can only be termed a demagoguic moralizing from the NYT Editorial Board and most of its journalists is outstanding.

The Syrian crisis, let us not forget, is NOT Europe’s problem or fault – it is basically a consequence of Russian and American idiocy, as are many things in this world, and if at all Europe’s biggest faux pas has been to put up with both these world bullies. Beyond that, the very idea that one small, already overpopulated continent (Europe) should offer unlimited access to these refugees or any other is simply absurd because when, after all, does one say “stop”. Ours is a terrible place for a great deal of humanity, that is the truth, and why should *these* refugees deserve access to Europe, the most civilized place on earth, more than all the others?!! How are we supposed to fit them all in? How are we supposed to support them? How are they supposed to integrate – especially when, as we all know, the great majority come from lands and cultures which are present do NOT want to integrate?

Stop pointing fingers, NYT, and instead look around you, at your own crisis-riddled home.

Reply 53Recommended
Flabbergasted Europe 4 hours ago
As usual the whole commentary is misguided. We are not talking about migrants who aspire to join a culture because they admire it. These migrants…NOT REFUGEES…should not be confused the garden-variety immigrant who move because they dream of a better place and a society which is better than what they are escaping. No, these migrants will recreate the world they left behind to the detriment of the hosts. This has nothing to do with any study which says immigrants are a net gain for the host in terms of economics. The issue is obvious and clear: they are not so much a threat to our economy but to our very existence as a free culture. The Koran does not tolerate pluralism. The Editorial Board is like Merkel et al…blinded by their political correctness and protected behind their elitist enclaves.
Again, Europe has enough unemployed that they could bring those from Greece, etc to Germany or Sweden. This is the reason behind the EU and open INTERNAL borders to facilitate the free movement of EU citizens and residents, not foreigners with no investment in the project.

Reply 52Recommended

Solaris New York, NY 3 hours ago
This entire editorial is ridiculous (framing the enormous cultural and security aspects of the migrant crisis only in terms of profitability from the new arrivals), but I take special offense to the claim that these migrants are not coming for “benefits tourism.” The Times points out that immigrants in Britain pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits, but what on earth makes you think they will be paying taxes at all? They are undocumented migrants without so much as a driver’s license and no knowledge of the language! But you think they will be paying taxes and otherwise “chipping in” for the common good? You honestly believe these immigrants will make their first priority filling out a W-2?

Beyond that, so much I’ve seen of the crisis reeks of a bizarre form of entitlement which runs contrary to the narrative of desperate families fleeing war-torn countries in search of peace. Attacking police officers, laying down on tracks to stop trains, refusing to yield until they reach their country of choice? Every story that comes out of this crisis feels less like a genuine “refugee crisis” and more of a free-for-all of Middle Eastern migrants espousing to cash in on benefits and hospitality for Western countries they have spent their entire lives denouncing.

It’s easy to lecture Europe about its moral obligations from this side of the pond, but Lord knows if 100,000 undocumented Middle Easterners washed up on our shores, the Times would be signing a different tune.

Reply 52Recommended
L’historien CA 4 hours ago
The EU, especially Germany, is committing cultural suicide. No culture can remain stable with this many people coming in this fast that have very different ideas on women, other religions and freedom of speech.

Reply 52Recommended
DHL Washington DC 4 hours ago
These migrants will pay more in tax revenue than they will take in benefits???

Seriously???

Guess what, using blanket stats on ALL immigrants, and applying it to this specific wave of Muslim migration, is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

Trump isn’t the only crazy person around here…

Reply 49Recommended
JohnD Connecticut 4 hours ago
This article sees this as only a dollars and cents economic situation, and ignores the historical perspective and long-term social implications. European countries had to repel numerous Muslim invasions from the 8th century to the 18th century. Spain, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Serbia, Romania and others were in the forefront of what were wars of survival. Now the New York Times sees unfettered migrations as good economics.

I am much more concerned about my individual freedoms than dollars. Unfortunately, the Muslims religion appears incompatible with the ideals of individual rights that Western democracies cherish Therefore, so I see no reason to allow the seeds of destruction to be planted now – even if this does not become apparent until a couple of generations from now.

Reply 49Recommended
Basic Human Being USA 3 hours ago
Skilled immigrants can be a boon. Millions of unskilled Muslims with large families and a sexist belief system that denies women their potential are hardly likely to be anything but a burden.

Reply 48Recommended
JMAN BETHESDA, MD 4 hours ago
This is a disingenuous editorial. Allowing in vetted documented refugees may be good both economically and socially- but the current Middle Eastern diaspora to Europe is unfiltered and is overcoming any security measures. I favor liberal immigration in our country- but the border has to be controlled so we know who is coming in and where they reside. The NYT and Obama administration obviously favor no accountability for migrants either here or in Europe.

Reply 45Recommended
floramac Maine 4 hours ago
This editorial is so disingenuous I can’t take it seriously.

Reply 43Recommended
Outside the Box is a trusted commenter America 2 hours ago
This is economic fiction. And ironically it comes in the same paper on the same day Krugman accused the Republicans of spouting economic fiction.

Europe cannot absorb billions of immigrants and grow exponentially.

This is not hundreds of years ago. We can easily see that resources are limited. Jobs are limited. The billions of people that the NYT is speaking of will not save Europe. They will not improve its cultures. Instead they will overrun the existing cultures and institutions.

Reply 39Recommend
natan japan 4 hours ago
NYTimes is conflating issues in its race to the bottom with the Guardian. There is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants. There is even a greater difference between illegals in the US, who would, if given opportunity, be very happy to register and become legal, and the Muslim invaders in the EU who refuse to respect the laws even when that would benefit them.

I don’t see how violent migrants who are attacking the police before even entering a country are going to benefit any society let alone the one that’s based on law. These people break the laws just for the sake of breaking them – they can easily enter the EU legally but refuse to do so! Slovenia is the latest example of a state that allows the migrants to freely move on to Austria or stay in the country legally with all the help provided. But apparently honoring the laws of the infidel countries is bellow these war-like young men. They want to be illegal.

Reply 39Recommended
ann Seattle 3 hours ago
“Another study found that an influx of refugees into Denmark in the 1990s led native workers to switch to more skilled jobs and away from jobs that were mostly manual labor. As a result, some local workers earned higher wages.”

This study cannot be read by members of the general public unless we pay to do so. But the summary of it that the reporter has made, is refuted by David Frum in a January 15, 2015 highly readable essay in The Atlantic titled “Does Immigration Harm Working Americans?” He wrote that most of the American workers displaced by illegal immigrants are not switching to more skilled jobs. “…millions of native-born Americans, especially men, have abandoned the job market altogether. The percentage of men aged 25 to 54 who are working or looking for work has dropped to the lowest point in recorded history.” Many are receiving disability pensions even though they would be working if illegal immigrants had not taken their jobs and driven down wages.

Reply 37Recommended
Honeybee Dallas 4 hours ago
Their presence will drive down labor costs and that will indeed be a boon to business owners.
But the costs to actually feed and educate these masses will fall on the middle classes.

The NYT board is a bunch of 1%ers; all 1%ers love low wages.

Reply 37Recommended
Paco Hernandez Phoenix 3 hours ago
Easy to tell Europe what to do when you live on the other side of the Atlantic.

Reply 35Recommended

DCBarrister Washington, DC 3 hours ago
Now the NY Times Editorial board, after declaring the “Black Lives Matter” thugs (I’m Black, so put away the race card) the 21st century equivalent of the Civil Rights Freedom Riders of the 1960s, fresh off declaring Barack Obama’s Iran Deal (the one where Iran gets everything including nukes and America gets nothing)…this Times Editorial Board is now telling European leaders what they should see when it comes to the Syrian Refugee Crisis, created by Barack Obama, someone the NYT Editorial Board has never held accountable.

As someone who travels to Europe several times a year, trust me when I say they are laughing at this.

Reply 34Recommended

Forrest Chisman Stevensville, MD 3 hours ago
Are the interns writing the editorials today or is the Times being coy? The information in this editorial is at best half-digested. It’s based on research on settled immigrant communities that arrived in moderate numbers over a long period of time. Yes, in the long term a moderate influx is beneficial to the immigrants and the host country in most economic conditions. But that’s not what we’re looking at in Europe today. We’re looking at realistic concerns about the near term effects of a large influx of migrants in a very short period of time when host economies are shaky.

And even if the Times is right about this research, what does it mean European nations and the US should do? Should they/we admit all the refugees who want to come? If not, how many and when? That’s the issue in dispute and the research cited by the Times doesn’t help to resolve it. One has the sense that The Times wants a very liberal immigration policy. If so, why hint about it? Tell us exactly what you recommend.

Reply 33Recommended
Ted Pikul Interzone 3 hours ago
Is that the same CBO report that cheerily observed that “[a]verage wages would be slightly lower…through 2024…However, the rate of return on capital would be higher”? Why, yes it is!

Sometimes best to say nothing…

Reply 32Recommended
Anonymous CA 4 hours ago
This is pure rubbish. How is Germany spending 6 billion on immigrants helping Germany? They will never recoup these costs. USA Today just published a report last week that showed more than 50% of immigrants in the USA are on Welfare: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/01/immigrant-welfare-u….

These are facts, not groundless assumptions that importing more low-skilled workers is going to be good for the host country.

Germany’s lower birthrate is not a problem, with a smaller population, more of the wealth will now be concentrated in fewer people. German citizens will actually become richer on a per capita basis. In fact, populations should be decreasing now that society is entering the technological age where machines and automation can do most of the work and less people are needed, not more!

What Europe’s countries need to do is protect their borders, their cultures, their heritage, and their people from the destabilization caused by mass immigration or else Europe will turn into the foreign countries the immigrants are fleeing.

Reply 30Recommended
Basic Human Being USA 3 hours ago
The American CBO report was written by business interests to justify the importation of foreign scabs. If the majority of illegals were economically useful, Mexico would be demanding they return home rather than shoving them on us. People have the right to control their nation’s borders. More is not always better.

Reply 30Recommended

carla van rijk virginia beach, va 3 hours ago
The issue of immigration should be left up to the people of each European country rather than coerce them into action. The disruption that occurs when certain religious cultures refuse to assimilate & demand cultural accommodations including demanding free speech be stifled & viewing women’s rights differently.

My husband is of Dutch Indonesian heritage & was among the first wave of immigrants of color to arrive in Holland after Sukarno exiled them after the revolution. The Dutch Indonesians assimilated quickly into society, worked hard & were too proud ever to rely on the generous Dutch social safety net. In fact, my husband & his brother attended Catholic school, excelled & became a prominent dentist & business owner. Then, the various waves that followed included the Turks, Moroccans, Somali & Surinamese who had difficulty assimilating into the homogeneous society & placed a heavy burden on the already extremely overtaxed citizens. Many of the devout Muslims demanded that the tolerant & permissive Dutch should change their society especially after the murder of film director, Theo van Gogh & threats against Somali women’s right activist, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. This is too much pressure for such a small country & now the society is full of conflict & increasing crime & stress. Europe is not as big as the US nor as heterogeneous. The countries have long cultural histories & traditions unlike the Us that is connected through pop culture rather than centuries of culture.

Reply 28Recommended

Tim B is a trusted commenter Seattle 4 hours ago
I read an article today about the difficulties and aspirations which some of those migrating have expressed, it is hard not to feel empathy for so many who wish to escape dangerous places and times. I admire the Times for its compassionate concern for these many travelers.

For those who have expressed grave concerns about this unprecedented migration, those concerns should not be dismissed as cruel or unfeeling. European countries have undergone significant transformations over centuries, slowly working toward freer, non monarchical and egalitarian societies.

Those victories for all people in Europe and other democratic nations have slowly evolved toward greater acceptance of individual differences and over time, toward less patriarchal societies, toward ones with more acceptance of equality at work and home for women and men, toward expression of different ideas and sentiments, a more free press, more tolerance, and more acceptance of those along the vast array of the sexual rainbow.

Many understandably fear the intrusion into Europe of hundreds of thousands of immigrants, mainly Muslim, whose creed teaches far less flexibility to the open expression of ideas, and for some who openly teach antagonistic and violent approaches to be vented toward democratic societies, whose values are often antithetical to the teachings of their holy book and prophet. How will so many of these new people be assimilated into their host countries, or will they ever wish to be?

Reply 26Recommend
Joseph albany 4 hours ago
The “refugees” are mostly single men, or married men who have left their wives and children behind. They are coming to Europe for economic reasons, not political reason and not for fear of their lives. Many want to go to Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden because of their generous welfare benefits. Many, like many who have come before them, have absolutely no intention of assimilating into a secular society. Some are radicals who wish to bring Islam to Europe, and a few of these radicals are Jihadi terrorists.

These are not the types of “refugees” most Europeans are welcoming with open arms. And I cannot blame the in the least.

Reply 26Recommended
Maria London 4 hours ago
“Even a large influx of immigrants does not mean fewer jobs for the existing population, since economies do not have a finite number of jobs.” No but for Sweden, which takes mainly refugees, this means importing unemployment since the vast majority of them are unskilled whereas Sweden’s economy requires mainly skilled labor. So instead we are importing unemployment that is life long for a lot of these people and, given Sweden’s very generous welfare, life long unemployment benefits. So instead of supporting an ageing population we now have to also support unemployed refugees. Then add the cost of increased crime rates and health care… It is not sustainable. It is a lie to think that it is economically beneficial for any European country to take on tens of thousands, if not millions, of asylum seekers per year when unskilled Europeans can not even get employment. Where is my source? Tino Sanandaji at Stockholm School of Economics. Check his blog for data.

Reply 25Recommended
GS Berlin 3 hours ago
The ignorance emanating from this editorial is breathtaking. As if the amount of taxes potentially paid were the only factors here. Not even a mention of the huge potential risks associated with immigration by millions of people who are up to 20% analphabets, come from war-ravaged countries and mostly follow a strict form of islam.

Our goal shouldn’t be to raise our GDP. I’m totally fine with declining population in my country. The number of humans should decline everywhere, that is the only real answer to climate change and environmental degradation. And I don’t need our ‘decline’ filled up with desperate people from other continents for economic reasons, thank you very much.

Reply 25Recommend
Chris 10013 4 hours ago
It’s rather naive to make an entirely economic argument. A rapid introduction of a group that strains social resources, speaks a different language, brings a different religion and conservative cultural norms trumps modest economic gains. I suspect that I can demonstrate that allowing taller buildings on the upper east side of NYC would result in economic growth. Shockingly, the residents of the UES (some of whom are on this board) reject the idea of economics over preservation of their current lifestyles.

Reply 24Recommended
DD Los Angeles 3 hours ago
“Immigrants generally pay more in taxes than they claim in government benefits.”

Come and spend some time in California, where billions in taxpayer money is spent yearly on health care and education and ID cards and welfare and food stamps benefits, not to mention prison facilities, all of it on people who have no permission to be here.

Additionally, the low end of the labor market is severely depressed, and those millions working off the books because they are getting less than minimum wage aren’t paying taxes at all. Yet they all send their children to public schools, and use the emergency medical system as their personal doctors at incredible expense to the rest of us.

And no, the solution is NOT to just open the floodgates and make them ALL citizens. That way lies madness. Remember, Reagan gave amnesty to five million, and now there are fifteen million more. If we do it again, in twenty years there will be 100 million.

Reply 23Recommended

TL ATX 4 hours ago
If the world weren’t overpopulated with people and if Islam weren’t incompatible with Western values, then I’d agree with the NYTs editorial board. But neither of the two things I mentioned is the case. If we don’t hold people accountable for their reckless reproducing or for their antiquated, backwards ideologies, how else will they learn?

Reply 21Recommended
Todd Stuart key west,fl 3 hours ago
I sometimes wonder if the NYT editorial board reads the stuff they write. Europe isn’t the USA, they don’t have a strong immigrant underpinning. In American everyone who isn’t a native American has to acknowledge if they go far enough back they are children of immigrants. European countries each define themselves with a common language and typically go back centuries. When countries are build without regard for those commonalities you get a place like Yugoslavia. Which once looked pretty stable but ultimately was a ticking time bomb. To think these countries can comfortably absorb vast numbers of people with different languages, a different religion and an unclear level of commitment to socializing into these societies is absurd. The issues places like France are already having with their significant Muslim minority only adds to the concerns. The answer is to try to fix the countries the refugees are fleeing which is a major undertaking but not a big as trying to resettle half the population of Syria.

Reply 21Recommended
Hopeoverexperience Edinburgh 4 hours ago
This is I’m afraid is a fallacy and underplays the stresses already existing in our countries due over populated schools which have to cater to multiple languages and to our health services which are already groaning under the weight of demand. Add to that mix uneducated young Muslim men whose work ethic is questionable and I believe we are creating an explosive mix. Longer term the change to our societies as a result of a failure to integrate will create insurmountable problems as we already see. No, the answer is to provide temporary help in a safe environment so that ultimately those people can return to their home. Enough of the bleeding hearts and lack of basic common sense.

Reply 21Recommend
Dawit Cherie Saint Paul, MN 3 hours ago
I am not so sure about that. The Saudis have changed a lot of things for worse. If we don’t try to change them first, they won’t stop trying to mold the world in their radical image. That’s hardly a boon to Europe, or the world.

Reply 20Recommended
silverfox24 Cave Creek, AZ 3 hours ago
While it is no doubt true that the initial surge of immigrants into Europe will have economic benefits fairly quickly and for some time to come, those benefits will fade over time as the immigrants become assimilated, most likely in a very imperfect way if past experience can be a guide, leading to a monumental transformation of European culture and institutions, and not necessarily in a positive way. While I applaud the European countries that display a humanity that most Islamic countries have yet to accede to, I fear they may have unwittingly signed their own death warrants since these immigrants constitute a demographic time bomb that will eventually explode. All we have to do is look to the UK, France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands (to name a handful) at the simmering unrest, often among second and third generations of immigrants. The Europe in the year 2100 will be quite different from the Europe of the year 2015.

Reply 20Recommend
al boston 3 hours ago
Again and again reporters misuse statistics to obfuscate this issue.

The fact that in 20 out of 19 countries (I’d be very interested in the analysis of the outlier country – could be most revealing) immigrants pay more in taxes than draw in benefits does not mean that they benefit the host countries because these statistics do not account for the hidden cost of massive immigration (massive means exceeding the assimilative capacity of the host):

1. The cost of crime especially by 2nd and 3rd immigrant generations, which is significant at least in USA and France.
2. The cost of education that is usually not included in calculating immigrants’ benefits.
3. Probably most importantly, the cost of eroding the host culture, which cost is almost impossible to measure, although I’m not sure if anyone’s tried.

What history teaches us is that Roman slaves were a huge economic asset until they destroyed that civilization and plunged it into the dark ages. Btw, many if not a majority of those slave had been freed by the time of that carnage.

Besides, there’s a much better and safer way to benefit from those people’s labor – guest worker visas. All the gulf countries, Russia, Singapore, etc have figured that out long ago. Look at Dubai to see what guest workers are capable of.

Reply 19Recommended
GP Los Angeles, CA 4 hours ago
The two economist cited here calculate the costs of education in the UK, and apply it to immigrants as if the education in their home country was the same. By that logic, the UK should simply eliminate their own education system. What a boon that would be.

We can see right through your agenda, NY Times.

Reply 19Recommend
Joe Seattle 3 hours ago
“The less skilled often take jobs that are hard to fill”. Sometimes because of low pay. This is a good thing? Low-paying jobs contribute to higher poverty levels.

Reply 18Recommend
Justice Holmes Charleston 3 hours ago
I’m sorry but I find it hard to believe that any rational human could suggest to the poor, working class and middle class humans in Europe that tens of thousands of migrants will be anything less that a burden. Most of the people now screaming for unlimited reception of the migrants won’t have to give up their housing benefits or unemployment or access to health care to accommodate them. Why because they live in beautiful houses or flats with regular pay checks or big stock portfolios.

No one wants to deal with the negatives of this crisis. But there are negatives that will be visited on those who are ill equipped to carry them. But who cares the elite can now feel superior.

Reply 18Recommend
David Savir Bedford MA 4 hours ago
Nothing that is uncontrollable is a boon.

Reply 18Recommend
Ulus Mcduff Los Angeles 3 hours ago
If you America think the Refugees are such a boon, why don’t doesn’t America a take them all?
I would like to see your comments if they did.

Reply 17Recommend
Diomedes Florida 4 hours ago
This discussion of migrants focuses solely on the economic consequences. Allow that to be true (although it’s debatable in the European context). What is overlooked, though, is the cultural dimension. Uncontrolled immigration to England, France and Germany have brought deep changes to the cultural life and values of those countries. England is very different to the country I grew up in in the ’50s and ’60s; France has changed so much that it can feel a parody of itself. The elephant in room is that the migrants don’t share a Judeo-Christian world view, by and large, and that they have little intention or desire to integrate or assimilate.

Reply 17Recommend
Justice Holmes Charleston 4 hours ago
The economic benefits being touted for immigration are, if they occur at all, long term while the burdens or costs of caring for the migrants are immediate. Further the studies generally do not deal with massive migration of individuals who come with nothing and surge across a border in the thousands. These golden predictions are similar to the jobs predictions made by the supports of the oil pipe line Canada…overblown and illusion at best but more than likely lies.

If migrants are going to be welcomed, it should be based not on some claim of benefit but with a recognition that the host nation will have to bear significant burdens.

Reply 17Recommend
Rufus W. Nashville 4 hours ago
Yes, Europe does see migrants as a burden because Europeans have to bear the expense of sheltering, feeding, and educating millions people – who really have no desire to become European (particularly: equal rights for all). Yes, Including a group of people into your society whose religious views -either implicitly or explicitly – place women and anyone from the LGBT community – as
less than – does create a burden.

Reply 16Recommend
David Calhoun La Jolla 4 hours ago
Another interesting take on Syrian refugees from the NY Times. If these people are all going to bring with them an economic boom, why don’t you lead the way and bring a few thousand of them here as NY Times employees? The United States, abetted by your indifferent coverage, with our ham fisted military brinksmanship that has created and is solely responsible for the upheavel that these people are fleeng, is the only nation on earth with a genuine moral obligation to harbor refugees of our US caused war. Leave the Europeans alone, they didn’t create this mess, we did.

Reply 16Recommend
Bill NYC 4 hours ago
I do not think that people are simply only concerned about the economic benefits of a mass migration of Islamic immigrants…

These new immigrants have a different set of cultural values and intolerant to many ideals of western civilization.
Currently 60 to 70 percent of inmates in France’s prison are Muslim…
In Germany, Muslims are four times as likely to be receiving welfare as non Mulsims…

Although mass migration may help large businesses, does this benefit the people?

Reply 16Recommend
Max San Francisco 4 hours ago
Please stop mixing legal and illegal immigration. You only do disservice to refugees and legal immigrants. Driving is necessary for many people, but driving without a license is harmful.

Reply 16Recommended

Paulo Ferreira White Plains, NY 4 hours ago
Yes, obviously a high birth rate is a boon for economies because it is plain for all to see that outside of oil, the economies of South America and the Middle East are booming. Gimme a break.

Reply 16Recommend
Rufus W. Nashville 4 hours ago
I don’t know….a featured story today in the Guardian newspaper online (U.K) reads: “Munich fears migrants and beer hunters may not mix well at Oktoberfest”. This is not just about people being able to get jobs and contribute to the economy – this is about the clash of two cultures that are really unreconcilable.

Reply 15Recommend
Steve Sailer America 4 hours ago
Mass immigration is very good for the billionaire class by driving up the supply of labor and thus driving down its price. Why billionaires deserve this special favor is unexplained, however.

Reply 14Recommend
GT NJ 4 hours ago
The USA is a country familiar with immigration. We occasionally have “issues” when numbers become large … be it a particular population or area …. this happened with the Irish and the Italians .. and somewhat less to the germans in the mid 1800’s..

Europe has almost no history of immigration .. and what they have experienced has not gone well. I frequently travel to Germany — Munich in particular. They don’t like the the current influx of UAE residents fleeing the heat of the middle east — and they are paying! This is not going to end well — I don’t think people understand the homogenous nature of the place. It’s not going to work in Italy or Austria either — it’s not London.

I’m Irish BTW

Reply 14Recommend
ann Seattle 4 hours ago
The first report referred to in your article was probably underwritten by the government, but cannot be read without a payment.

Another one of the reports says that a quarter of the Europeans moving to Britain since 2000 had a university degree paid for by their country of origin. This is a stark contrast to our illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America as the overwhelming majority of them have no more than a primary school education taught by rural teachers who either inherited or purchased their positions. Some of the illegal immigrants have never been to school at all, and so cannot read or write even in their native Spanish or Mayan language, let alone in English.

The 2013 Congressional Budget Office Report predicts that if the illegal immigrants are given legal status, that unemployment will rise through 2020 and average wages will decrease until 2025.

Reply 14Recommend
Amanda New York 4 hours ago
Once again, you conflate those who immigrate legally with those who do so illegally.

Legal immigrants are filtered by the host country, which chooses those who are healthier, stronger, and smarter than the natives. As you would expect, they use social services less often than natives, and do more work. They are a boon to the economy.

Illegal immigrants typically include a mixture of hard-working but uneducated people who are net contributors until their children enter school, at which point they become expensive, and benefits seekers who are expensive from the very beginning. Studies sometimes obscure this by ignoring the costs of their children on the basis that their children are citizens. But this is invalid and the children and grandchildren of uneducated migrants are usually net recipients of public funds, and much less happy to take the less desirable jobs that the original immigrant parent or grandparent was glad to have.

Reply 14Recommend
B. Granat Lake Linden, Michigan 4 hours ago
“In Britain, for example, immigrants from the rest of Europe pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits, according to an analysis by two economists.”

Ok. Now exactly WHICH immigrants of that totality pay more in taxes?

Reply 13Recommend
John Graham Phoenix 4 hours ago
Another example of why the editorial board lacks credibility on this topic. The penultimate paragraph refers to a CBO report that allegedly referred to “giving undocumented workers a path to citizenship.” Search that report–it doesn’t once mention “citizenship.” In truth, it refers to “legal status,” which is a crucial difference. How can we believe anything from the board when it willingly misrepresents the report’s contents (and when the misrepresentation is so easy to uncover)? And, as usual, the editorial board conspicuously dodges stating its position regarding immigration, which appears to be open borders for every nation state in the world. [If that is incorrect, please let your readers know.] At some point, someone on the editorial board needs to stand up and be the adult in the room on this topic.

Reply 13Recommend
Un PRK 4 hours ago
This refugee crisis created by Obama and Hillary Clinton is now being foisted upon Europe. Solutions are needed … not excuses from the Times editorial board hoping to shed a positive light on the greatest humanitarian disaster of this millennium.. Most readers are simply not dumb enough to believe the editorial board that this refugee crisis is such a great gain to the countries that take these people in and will create high wage jobs for the currently unemployed in those countries. New York Times readers may be ill-informed, but they are not stupid enough to believe such rancid slop.

Reply 11Recommend
laikalee California 3 hours ago
Well intended, but still voodoo economics!

Reply 10Recommend
Maria London 3 hours ago
Totally, anybody living in a northern European country knows that it is a fairy tale to say that massive immigration of Muslims is actually working out. It is a ticking bomb!

In Reply to Maureen Reply 10Recommend
Joe Yohka New York 4 hours ago
Of course the studies are based on orderly immigration, which is routinely quota based on criteria, education and a country’s needs. This is quite different. The root cause is in Syria, where our foreign policies and red lines are non existant.

Reply 10Recommend

marymary DC 4 hours ago
I don’t know. I suspect that this situation may play out much as it would in more micro terms. If a friend and his friends and their families decided to ‘visit’ my home for an indefinite period of time, eating my food, consuming my resources, after a little bit I would not be feeling the boon.

Reply 10Recommend
Ryan New York 4 hours ago
The studies referenced in this article may all be true; immigration bolsters growth. However this article only references the conclusion arrived at by these studies. It is disingenuous to continue to claim that immigration is a boon for countries without examining the controlled naturalization process many countries use to ensure immigrants are assimilated into their society.

Refugee crises surely cannot be conflated to the controlled immigration these studies reference. How can one take the Editorial Board’s opinion seriously when, instead of posing a humanitarian viewpoint, the Board attempts to cite studies on controlled immigration and apply them to a refugee crisis.

When an individual immigrates to the U.S. (for example) they must endure an arduous naturalization process. This process essentially forces them to be sponsored by an employer (if working) and motivates them to engage in socially productive behavior in order to become a citizen. Taking this into account, I for one, can see how someone immigrating (LEGALLY) to the U.S. would be motivated to find and keep work, pay taxes, and assimilate into society.

With all of that said, this isn’t immigration. This is a refugee crisis spurred by civil war throughout Syria and ISIS in Iraq. This is a crisis that occurred while Obama “drew a red line” and called ISIS a “JV-team”. This is a crisis that the U.S. actually supported in Syria via CIA weapons and cash paid to rebel fighters. This is not immigration

Reply 9Recommend
O’Brien Airstrip One 4 hours ago
Yes. Because all those immigrants from Muslim countries have worked out oh-so-well in France. For our part in the United States, let’s follow this argument. open up the borders, and watch the American economy take off into the stratosphere. What are we waiting for?

Look. It is a terrible humanitarian crisis. But if tiny Israel could resettle tens of thousands of Yemeni and Ethiopian Jews to its territory in a matter of weeks, the West could resettle a million of these migrants in any Arab or majority-Muslim country or countries that is willing to take them on. We’ve got the logistical capability to do that. The Moroccan and Algerian airlines can keep flying their commercial flights. So can the Turks and Emiratis. In doing this, we’ll more than meet our responsibility.

Reply 9Recommend
Outside the Box is a trusted commenter America 2 hours ago
Maybe the NYT thinks editorial is penance for the way is disparaged Irish and Italian immigrants to the US.

Reply 8Recommend
Joanna Berkeley, CA 3 hours ago
Have you looked at Sweden? They thought educating the youth would integrate them. Now most of the refugees are still on welfare, unemployed and not integrated. Europe isn’t America. You can’t assume that what happens in America will happen in Europe. We are a nation of immigrants.

Have you looked at France to see how integration is proceeding? What about Germany with sky high anti immigration protests? The European economy is very unstable and volatile right now.

 
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  1. That was fucking spectacular.

  2. I’m floored by this. I’ve seen anti-immigration comments land a lot of support in the NYT comment sections but always alongside some opposite progressive pro-immigration responses as well. I’ve never seen a solid wall of backlash like this.

    • Agree: Seminumerical
    • Replies: @anon
    Yes, it is used to be a small propaganda wing and a huge number of outer ring people who believed the propaganda but now it's like the outer ring has evaporated. I assume those people still nominally believe it but have become unsure and thus silent.
    , @Anonymous
    It's been happening on the comments sections of all sorts of mainstream news sites lately. Some have responded by just flat out censoring and blocking anyone who doesn't toe the line -- see National Review for example.
    , @Perspective
    I think this is one of the few times where I have seen the top comments on more conservative publications closely match those on liberal sites. Us commoners are now calling out the media/politicians and their pathological altruist followers on this. Many commenters correctly note that most of the migrants are fit young men, yet the media acts like over half of them are comprised of women, children and the disabled.

    As others have asked, what is the end game of this project? What is the narratives goal?
  3. The commenters speak with far more sense than the editors, but “secular Judeo-Christian nations?” The “US, for example” has an “arduous naturalization process”? (Perhaps the “United States” of Mexico or Brazil!)

    They need to find other sources of information. AM radio, flawed as it is, would be an improvement and a start.

  4. Who is the famous Jewish wag who said, “I have never met a Judeo-Christian”? Rabbi Stephen Wise?

    • Replies: @JSM
    Wouldn't that be the Jews for Jesus guys? They are the ONLY ones who, logically, might be called Judeo-Christian, but they number, what, a few hundred thousand people? Makes it seem like calling Western countries "Judeo-Christian"is a punchline, doesn't it?
  5. To be fair to The Times, they said people have to start *thinking* of these migrants as a boon and not a burden.

    Just imagine. Imagine all the people. Living in harmony and being a boon!

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "Living in harmony and being a boon!"

    More like baboon.
    , @White Guy In Japan
    Imagine no more illegal immigrants,
    It isn't hard to do...
  6. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Liberalism is a mind virus. It’s a syndrome whereby the patient off-loads hostility under the guise of do-gooderism. Patient becomes addicted to the thrill of getting away with social destruction that otherwise would be socially unacceptable.

    There is a lot in common between, say, France and Chicago. San Francisco and Sweden. These are places where the virus takes hold.

    If the elites can wall themselves off from the effects of their own policies then the spiral can continue! For decades!

    The funniest thing about this is that malice is never named as the driver of the crazy car. The veneer of do-gooderism is bulletproof.

    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    Liberalism is a mind virus
     
    Even the liberal NYT commenters are horrified by this forced mass immigration. And many of the biggest supporters of mass immigration are politically on the right, like the Koch brothers.

    It's amazing how intelligent and reasonable the comments sound, while the official NYT op-ed sounds deranged. I thought that the newspaper was supposed to conform to the bias of their readers. That is clearly not happening.

    That was fucking spectacular.
     
    Absolutely! Go liberal NYT commenters, go!!!
  7. I’ve been paying attention to the immigration issue for years, and I’ve never seen the kind of emphatic opposition to mass immigration that we are now seeing. It will be interesting to see what coming elections in the US and Europe bring, and whether our leaders finally start listening to the citizens or whether they continue to find even more ways to blatantly ignore and undermine the will of the voters.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    In this case I think it's called "the collapse of traditional print newsmedia."

    Even Carlos Slim buying a hefty share of Grey Lady stock and pushing the editorial content and story development guidelines in the direction of his view of what's Boonly (externalizing his lawless and stupid onto El Norte, and hectoring its beleaguered residents to see this as a good thing as their wages are attached to supply welfare dollars to pay for phone calls back to Mehico) doesn't seem to be bailing the model out.

    Meantime, those within that model are having a remarkably hard time comprehending their own irrelevancy to and disengagement with the rank and file.

    Believe me, the MSM panic rooms are fuller by the moment. Between medium collapse and narrative collapse, it's not at all clear how they're going to keep the revenues propped up, particularly with talk of a Wall St. hard correction in the near future.

    Hardening clickbait demographics works to some degree. (What, in this house, we call the "boobs, freaks, and Hitler" model of clickbait.)

    But sites like Unz and Taki, blogs like Those Who Can See, JayMan, and VDARE, and "new right" outlets like Counter-Currents and Radix are leading even those who disagree with the "new right" to do a lot of rethinking and reframing of their own views.

    Viewers/readers may still buy access to and read NYT...but NYT, like The Nation, The Atlantic, and that piece of crap Mother Jones are learning that the audience, not the medium, is the message.

    > I’ve never seen the kind of emphatic opposition to
    > mass immigration that we are now seeing.

    Watching this electron cloud of rank and file opposition coalesce around lightning rods such as Mr. Sailer has been glorious indeed.

    It has left me feeling that maybe AOHell and Zuckerberg couldn't turn every last corner of the Internet into a combination shopping mall, porn palace, and infotainment clickbait currency mint. There are still niches where the awake and thinking and honestly dissenting can talk to one another.

    What's more transformative than people observing as that sort of dialogue proceeds? God knows the MSM don't allow it. One doesn't have to agree to benefit, and that's what the old media don't comprehend, but the Romans did 2,000 years ago: lockstep collapses bridges.

    Who's behind all that new media agora-disputation is another question. I like to think that for every Eye of Soros and Ford Foundation operative pushing the Stalinish MSM, there's 1,000 "quarter-millionaires next door" funding these smaller information projects. You know, the kind of people the Founders had in mind as the ones who should be allowed to vote.

    But there's probably some super rich angels as well.

  8. Really , who likes Paris more than nyt readers? What would they enjoy about a million more new caught sullen peoples?

    • Replies: @neutral
    That saying "a conservative is a liberal who was mugged", they should modify it to "a conservative is liberal who has been to Paris or Italy". Those places have been so rapidly transformed from what liberals think they would have been, that it can easily convert even the most hardened Trotskyite.

    In fact things are changing so rapidly that even the terms "conservative" or "liberal" will no longer be used, growing up in South Africa just before Apartheid ended, I remember how people would talk about being liberal or conservative, those terms are no longer used. The same can be observed in countries like Venezueala, Colombia, Brazil etc. the formal press likes to label party X as liberal or conservative, but the reality is that politics is mostly driven by racial identity, liberal vs. conservative are first world terms, once the liberals have succeeded in changing a country into 3rd world, they no longer make sense.
  9. Collated report on the rape wave committed by the Free Stuff Army across Germany which is being kept quiet by the police/media.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

    • Replies: @Cryptogenic
    As Steve says, I'm shocked, shocked.

    "The practice of providing accommodations in large tents, the lack of gender-separate sanitary facilities...."

    How progressive of them.
  10. @Vendetta
    I'm floored by this. I've seen anti-immigration comments land a lot of support in the NYT comment sections but always alongside some opposite progressive pro-immigration responses as well. I've never seen a solid wall of backlash like this.

    Yes, it is used to be a small propaganda wing and a huge number of outer ring people who believed the propaganda but now it’s like the outer ring has evaporated. I assume those people still nominally believe it but have become unsure and thus silent.

  11. Mexican immigrants to the US boost GDP, while dragging down GDP per capita. They benefit business owners and upper-middle-class people who want cheap nannies, while hurting people at the bottom end of the economic scale.

    Arab Muslim immigrants to Europe are not only transparently shopping around for the countries with the most generous welfare payments, they actively want to destroy their host countries. Not only will Europe have to pay for cradle to the grave welfare, they’ll have to spend billions on security measures to keep them from blowing the place up. Letting them in is a disaster for everyone, including the wealthy.

    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @wolfy
    this is a myth.percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.
  12. I noticed voodoo economics got mentioned. More Bush legacy goodness.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    Racial diversity and mass immigration are voodoo sociology.
  13. I’ve noticed for some time that immigration & segregation editorials set the commentators off. Now when they throw in the GOP into the mix then the comments sound like typical liberal comments dripping with hatred.

  14. @Daniel Antinora
    To be fair to The Times, they said people have to start *thinking* of these migrants as a boon and not a burden.

    Just imagine. Imagine all the people. Living in harmony and being a boon!

    “Living in harmony and being a boon!”

    More like baboon.

  15. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The most important moral lesson to take home from this crisis is that so called ‘open borders’ are just sheer, utter madness.
    Perhaps the graphic scenes have awakened the general public to that fact.
    Of the politicians and economists, those who actually wield power, rest assured that they will continue, wooden-headidly, in their path of madness.

  16. at least these comments get online. In the german newspaper FAZ which is considered to be conservative, a lot of these comments would probably not get published

  17. @Wilkey
    I've been paying attention to the immigration issue for years, and I've never seen the kind of emphatic opposition to mass immigration that we are now seeing. It will be interesting to see what coming elections in the US and Europe bring, and whether our leaders finally start listening to the citizens or whether they continue to find even more ways to blatantly ignore and undermine the will of the voters.

    In this case I think it’s called “the collapse of traditional print newsmedia.”

    Even Carlos Slim buying a hefty share of Grey Lady stock and pushing the editorial content and story development guidelines in the direction of his view of what’s Boonly (externalizing his lawless and stupid onto El Norte, and hectoring its beleaguered residents to see this as a good thing as their wages are attached to supply welfare dollars to pay for phone calls back to Mehico) doesn’t seem to be bailing the model out.

    Meantime, those within that model are having a remarkably hard time comprehending their own irrelevancy to and disengagement with the rank and file.

    Believe me, the MSM panic rooms are fuller by the moment. Between medium collapse and narrative collapse, it’s not at all clear how they’re going to keep the revenues propped up, particularly with talk of a Wall St. hard correction in the near future.

    Hardening clickbait demographics works to some degree. (What, in this house, we call the “boobs, freaks, and Hitler” model of clickbait.)

    But sites like Unz and Taki, blogs like Those Who Can See, JayMan, and VDARE, and “new right” outlets like Counter-Currents and Radix are leading even those who disagree with the “new right” to do a lot of rethinking and reframing of their own views.

    Viewers/readers may still buy access to and read NYT…but NYT, like The Nation, The Atlantic, and that piece of crap Mother Jones are learning that the audience, not the medium, is the message.

    > I’ve never seen the kind of emphatic opposition to
    > mass immigration that we are now seeing.

    Watching this electron cloud of rank and file opposition coalesce around lightning rods such as Mr. Sailer has been glorious indeed.

    It has left me feeling that maybe AOHell and Zuckerberg couldn’t turn every last corner of the Internet into a combination shopping mall, porn palace, and infotainment clickbait currency mint. There are still niches where the awake and thinking and honestly dissenting can talk to one another.

    What’s more transformative than people observing as that sort of dialogue proceeds? God knows the MSM don’t allow it. One doesn’t have to agree to benefit, and that’s what the old media don’t comprehend, but the Romans did 2,000 years ago: lockstep collapses bridges.

    Who’s behind all that new media agora-disputation is another question. I like to think that for every Eye of Soros and Ford Foundation operative pushing the Stalinish MSM, there’s 1,000 “quarter-millionaires next door” funding these smaller information projects. You know, the kind of people the Founders had in mind as the ones who should be allowed to vote.

    But there’s probably some super rich angels as well.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Slim is a Lebanese.

    Basically it is his people - Syria and Lebanon were one and the same prior to 1918, who are the 'migrants'.
    I'm most surprised that he isn't doing everything possible to get the USA to take in vast numbers of Syrians, of indeed isn't pressing Mexico.

    Or, perhaps Carlos Slim is a christian, and rather leave Muslim countrymen to their fate.
    , @Leftist conservative

    Believe me, the MSM panic rooms are fuller by the moment. Between medium collapse and narrative collapse, it’s not at all clear how they’re going to keep the revenues propped up, particularly with talk of a Wall St. hard correction in the near future.

     

    yes, hardly anyone realizes how interconnected the collapsing real economy is to the MSM slant on immigration. The 2008 financial crisis brought a lot of media outlets nearly to their knees. A lot of experienced journalists had to leave the profession or took pay cuts.

    It was combination of the economy and the internet replacing traditional journalism.

    What we have now is the fed reserve bank and the central banks of other nations propping up the price of assets so as to prevent another collapse. Crucial to preventing another collapse is keeping some degree of growth alive. That is where mass immigration comes in--it is probably the major source of growth for the western economies now. That small degree of growth is critical to preventing another collapse, which would of course take down a lot of media outlets and put a lot of journalists out of work.

    So this is why the media is so voraciously supporting the refugee invasion in europe and toeing the neoliberal party line that maintains that these refugees are quasi-holy.

    This is also why the media hates Trump. His comments about rapist illegals strikes at one of the core tenets of multiculturalism--that immigrants are Good People. It is crucial that white americans think that immigrants are good people. That is part of how they manufacture consent for mass immigration.

    Now, the economic analysis that holds that immigration increases GDP is probably true. But the gains are given mostly to Capital and not to Labor. Also there are many negative effects on the citizens that are not economic.

    Anyway, it is really all about money. Like it always is.
  18. @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    I noticed voodoo economics got mentioned. More Bush legacy goodness.

    Racial diversity and mass immigration are voodoo sociology.

  19. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Olorin
    In this case I think it's called "the collapse of traditional print newsmedia."

    Even Carlos Slim buying a hefty share of Grey Lady stock and pushing the editorial content and story development guidelines in the direction of his view of what's Boonly (externalizing his lawless and stupid onto El Norte, and hectoring its beleaguered residents to see this as a good thing as their wages are attached to supply welfare dollars to pay for phone calls back to Mehico) doesn't seem to be bailing the model out.

    Meantime, those within that model are having a remarkably hard time comprehending their own irrelevancy to and disengagement with the rank and file.

    Believe me, the MSM panic rooms are fuller by the moment. Between medium collapse and narrative collapse, it's not at all clear how they're going to keep the revenues propped up, particularly with talk of a Wall St. hard correction in the near future.

    Hardening clickbait demographics works to some degree. (What, in this house, we call the "boobs, freaks, and Hitler" model of clickbait.)

    But sites like Unz and Taki, blogs like Those Who Can See, JayMan, and VDARE, and "new right" outlets like Counter-Currents and Radix are leading even those who disagree with the "new right" to do a lot of rethinking and reframing of their own views.

    Viewers/readers may still buy access to and read NYT...but NYT, like The Nation, The Atlantic, and that piece of crap Mother Jones are learning that the audience, not the medium, is the message.

    > I’ve never seen the kind of emphatic opposition to
    > mass immigration that we are now seeing.

    Watching this electron cloud of rank and file opposition coalesce around lightning rods such as Mr. Sailer has been glorious indeed.

    It has left me feeling that maybe AOHell and Zuckerberg couldn't turn every last corner of the Internet into a combination shopping mall, porn palace, and infotainment clickbait currency mint. There are still niches where the awake and thinking and honestly dissenting can talk to one another.

    What's more transformative than people observing as that sort of dialogue proceeds? God knows the MSM don't allow it. One doesn't have to agree to benefit, and that's what the old media don't comprehend, but the Romans did 2,000 years ago: lockstep collapses bridges.

    Who's behind all that new media agora-disputation is another question. I like to think that for every Eye of Soros and Ford Foundation operative pushing the Stalinish MSM, there's 1,000 "quarter-millionaires next door" funding these smaller information projects. You know, the kind of people the Founders had in mind as the ones who should be allowed to vote.

    But there's probably some super rich angels as well.

    Slim is a Lebanese.

    Basically it is his people – Syria and Lebanon were one and the same prior to 1918, who are the ‘migrants’.
    I’m most surprised that he isn’t doing everything possible to get the USA to take in vast numbers of Syrians, of indeed isn’t pressing Mexico.

    Or, perhaps Carlos Slim is a christian, and rather leave Muslim countrymen to their fate.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Carlos Slim is Christian, so the Syrians Muslims are not his people.
  20. On the topic of immigration and economics, the way the NYT likes to frame the narrative is that conservatives should be more concerned about the economy than liberals. They probably have to create this narrative because there really is nothing else the NYT would like conservatives to support. I am no hippie, money is important but it does not drive who I am, and I certainly would never want to destroy my nation to boost GDP by a few percentage points.

    I have had some nasty flame wars online with extreme liberals, the type of liberal that believes the stereotype that conservatives should only care about money, when I reject this, they usually attack me by saying that I am a loser with no money and they even go as far as calling me a socialist or communist. These kind of attacks for me are proof is that they are actually the ones that only care about money, and that they really have nothing more than that they hold in value.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "I have had some nasty flame wars online with extreme liberals, the type of liberal that believes the stereotype that conservatives should only care about money, when I reject this, they usually attack me by saying that I am a loser with no money and they even go as far as calling me a socialist or communist. These kind of attacks for me are proof is that they are actually the ones that only care about money, and that they really have nothing more than that they hold in value."

    That is the irony in what many liberals believe: they imagine conservatives to be greedy and heartless, and yet many conservatives have religious motivations which are anything but. They may be naive and foolish, but they are not greedy and heartless. It is liberals, being essentially materialists, who have the more cold and cynical political views and who are more likely motivated by gain. They tend to project their own greediness on to others. Some conservatives do this to, mind you. People who are quick to attribute other peoples actions to greed tend to be greedy and grasping (or at least really cheap) themselves.
  21. Too bad. The damage is already done. You guys are going down.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "Too bad. The damage is already done. You guys are going down."

    And do you imagine that people named Nguyen are going to last in a sea of blacks, mexicans, and arabs?
  22. On the article you linked here: http://www.unz.com/isteve/intifada-in-europe/ , a lot of the “NYT picks” comments expressed very Sailerian sentiments, and I was surprised to see this particular comment, which used the other I-word, being singled out as the “featured comment”:

    At what point did the European countries realize they were being invaded? Last weekend? Yesterday? Will history look at the leaders’ initial open-border policy as the greatest lapse in historical memory recorded in modern times? Or just a spot of momentary insanity?

    It seems that very different people are responsible for the editorial decisions that go into an article’s presentation vs. the editorial decisions that go into curating reader-provided content.

  23. One wonders whether these comments are truly representative of NYT reading goodthinkers. Last week I got in a FB debate with my sister and her friend who is an American immigrant in Hungary. They claim the invaders are “refugees”. I pointed out that even the UN admits almost three quarters are males. No response, unsurprisingly. The intellectually dishonest, when confronted with unimpeachable facts, prefer to ignore them than admit being wrong.

    • Replies: @Ed
    Facebook isn't a good venue for political discussions, especially if you're college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony.
  24. @BurplesonAFB
    Really , who likes Paris more than nyt readers? What would they enjoy about a million more new caught sullen peoples?

    That saying “a conservative is a liberal who was mugged”, they should modify it to “a conservative is liberal who has been to Paris or Italy”. Those places have been so rapidly transformed from what liberals think they would have been, that it can easily convert even the most hardened Trotskyite.

    In fact things are changing so rapidly that even the terms “conservative” or “liberal” will no longer be used, growing up in South Africa just before Apartheid ended, I remember how people would talk about being liberal or conservative, those terms are no longer used. The same can be observed in countries like Venezueala, Colombia, Brazil etc. the formal press likes to label party X as liberal or conservative, but the reality is that politics is mostly driven by racial identity, liberal vs. conservative are first world terms, once the liberals have succeeded in changing a country into 3rd world, they no longer make sense.

    • Agree: Kyle McKenna
  25. I think I uncovered another pollster committing fraud by just making up numbers. It has happened regularly.

    http://votergravity.com/fiorina-leads-in-nh-in-post-cnn-debate-poll/

    So they claim that, in one day, they surveyed by telephone “2,839 New New Hampshire Republican Primary Voters” In the last election without an incumbent, there were 239,765 votes cast in the NH Republican Primary. That is 1.2% of New Hampshire Republicans or leaners.

    That is just completely implausible. They use autodial, so they are not allowed to hit cell phones. Response rates are extremely low for land lines, most people with them screen with answering machines and caller ID, and this is especially the case if you have a landline in NH and get barraged by attempts to poll you.

    I think this company, which makes software for campaigns, decided to make up a poll with results that would attract attention. iCarly going from 4th place to 1st place would fit the bill.

  26. This is a glorious thing to see. The only thing I don’t understand is why the NYT are still allowing comments, or dishonestly promoting certain pro-immigration articles.

    • Replies: @H2
    Other sites have shut off comments before so no guarantee the NYT will allow them in the future
    , @Anonym
    Sorry, that should have read "The only thing I don’t understand is why the NYT are still allowing comments, or why they haven't started dishonestly promoting/publishing certain pro-immigration comments."
  27. This whole episode is so bizarre it reminds me of Michael Swanwick’s short story Radiant Doors.

  28. @Daniel Antinora
    To be fair to The Times, they said people have to start *thinking* of these migrants as a boon and not a burden.

    Just imagine. Imagine all the people. Living in harmony and being a boon!

    Imagine no more illegal immigrants,
    It isn’t hard to do…

    • Replies: @Ttjy
    How about no more legal immigrants too?
  29. @Anonym
    This is a glorious thing to see. The only thing I don't understand is why the NYT are still allowing comments, or dishonestly promoting certain pro-immigration articles.

    Other sites have shut off comments before so no guarantee the NYT will allow them in the future

    • Replies: @Anonym
    I know. That is why I find it so amazing that such a liberal bastion still allows them.
    , @Shine a Light
    I get maybe 25% of my comments to the NYT's published. I'm usually heretical against the Narrative but not outright rude. So for everyone of these nicey-nice anti-immigration comments, you can well imagine there are plenty of others that don't make it past the filters.

    The Daily Telegraph has pretty much shut down comments. The Guardian very heavily censors. One place where I push a lot of limits is the Washington Post and so far I have not had a problem there. Seriously there are times I go overboard there and nothing ever happens. NRO is almost impossible for me, even if I don't use the word "cuck" my comments there maybe last 3 minutes at best.
    , @Ed
    Doubtful they've just rolled out a notification system for comments. If your comment is liked or replied to you receive a notification.

    The NYT allows comments on a handful of stories a day and most opinion pieces. They're moderated so they can filter out the loons. Frankly I like their system as opposed to the free wheeling structure at Breitbart where there are thousands of comments of tripe.
  30. Despite Hungary’s brave stand, basically nothing has changed. The refugees are being allowed to pass through Croatia, to Hungary, and then to Austria. 4000 arrived in Austria last night.

    The problem is once they are inside Europe’s exterior perimeter, no nation wants to keep them on their territory nor send them back. No Balkan nation wants to become Europe’s “panic room” where all the refugees are stuffed into.

    What this means is that despite the border clash theater in Hungary a couple days ago — nothing has changed and the flows have only been slightly diverted but not slowed down. The Balkan states say the problem has to be solved in Turkey and Greece which is actually correct since no one is man enough in Europe to collect these refugees and physically take them back to Turkey.

    But the EU moves as slowly as a turtle. Germany and France have to get motivated to provide the required border protection in Greece and Turkey. They will drag their feet until the Eastern bloc nations accept forced quotas.

    So this invasion is no where near containment. Even Hungary is wussing out a bit although they are being placed in a terrible position due to no fault of their own.

    Knowing the pace of “action” by the EU, it will be months (if ever) before this invasion is stemmed — and at that point it will be too late to save a large part of Europe.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Actually, these migrants are being forced down our throats by the Croatians who happen to have a slimy leftist prime minister who had criticized Hungary but then now is transporting those migrants to Hungary. They even sent a train transport in spite of Hungarian authorities having rejected them (and giving a red light signal!) accompanied by forty armed policemen, in blatant violation of the Schengen border.

    We've just started to build a fence on the Croatian border, but honestly I think it would be nice if all border states started building fences.

    , @Anonymous
    I wonder if the eastern bloc nations now regret joining the EU?
  31. @H2
    Other sites have shut off comments before so no guarantee the NYT will allow them in the future

    I know. That is why I find it so amazing that such a liberal bastion still allows them.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar


    Other sites have shut off comments before so no guarantee the NYT will allow them in the future
     
    @H2
    I know. That is why I find it so amazing that such a liberal bastion still allows them.
     
    A good sign-- the filterers may agree with the commenters. Din't tell the management!

    Or maybe Carlos pays by the word.
  32. @H2
    Other sites have shut off comments before so no guarantee the NYT will allow them in the future

    I get maybe 25% of my comments to the NYT’s published. I’m usually heretical against the Narrative but not outright rude. So for everyone of these nicey-nice anti-immigration comments, you can well imagine there are plenty of others that don’t make it past the filters.

    The Daily Telegraph has pretty much shut down comments. The Guardian very heavily censors. One place where I push a lot of limits is the Washington Post and so far I have not had a problem there. Seriously there are times I go overboard there and nothing ever happens. NRO is almost impossible for me, even if I don’t use the word “cuck” my comments there maybe last 3 minutes at best.

    • Replies: @Ed
    The Washington Post seems to have a high tolerance for crime think comments. Might be Bezos doing. They still have limits though, during the case of the murdered wealthy DC family the comments came in fast & furious. Most were pretty racist blaming blacks for crime & some even advocated for segregation.

    They turned off comments to most stories having to do with the case as a result. Same thing with that UVA girl that was murdered by a black guy.
    , @oh its just me
    NPR also has been known (as will the NYT ) prunes comments after the initial rush and just leave 'stupid' opposing comments to make it look like anyone who opposes their article is an idiot.
    , @MarkinLA
    You might be treated at WaPO as I think I am. I can comment but nobody else sees it. I forget the name for that type of censorship. I had suspected it because nobody ever responded to me no matter how outrageous my post (just to get a rise). They were mostly good conservative comments, I just went overboard to prove my suspicion.
  33. @Das
    Mexican immigrants to the US boost GDP, while dragging down GDP per capita. They benefit business owners and upper-middle-class people who want cheap nannies, while hurting people at the bottom end of the economic scale.

    Arab Muslim immigrants to Europe are not only transparently shopping around for the countries with the most generous welfare payments, they actively want to destroy their host countries. Not only will Europe have to pay for cradle to the grave welfare, they'll have to spend billions on security measures to keep them from blowing the place up. Letting them in is a disaster for everyone, including the wealthy.

    this is a myth.percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    • Replies: @bomag
    .percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    But it could well have been higher sans immigration. A lot of post 1965 wage and income growth was given to immigrants. Then, add this to the loss of social cohesion, and the pressure on housing, on private and public institutions; that income doesn't buy what it could have.
    , @Travis
    per-capita income of Americans may not have been reduced by immigration , but certain segments of the population benefited much more than others while others have been hurt economically

    The upper classes and many small business owners benefitted tremendously from the influx of cheap labor, while those in the bottom half have seen wages fall, housing costs rise and their teenage children have less opportunity to find summer jobs and get real work experience

    it is a question of whom benefits and who is hurt by importing low cost workers. Certainly the upper class workers enjoy low cost nannies while high school girls lose the opportunity to babysit and teenage boys lose the opportunity to work part-time busboy jobs etc...

    other effects of massive immigration cannot be seen, driving down White fertility rates due to the higher costs of housing and the disintegration of formerly white areas, diversity also decreases the trust levels and quality of life of and culture of the host nation
    , @MarkinLA
    percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    Yeah tell that to all the union construction workers.

    Maybe you mean 10,000 American workers have their pay go down and 100 business owners get all the lost income. So in that case the per capita income is the same.
  34. I like to think that this is a big set up for a future where President Hussein Obama Comacho will announce:

    “Immigration is good all the time for all reasons. The NYT told me so. Therefore, as a favor to other countries, we will begin deporting select groups of our citizens and allow them to bestow the blessings of diversity and GDP growth elsewhere.”

  35. These data are from 2008- before the crisis- but Eurostat put together a bunch of indicators of migrant economic integration. You have to wade through a lot of confusingly agglomerated figures, but for example then find that prime-aged recent migrants from low and middle HDI nations had, as of 2008, an unemployment rate of 21 and 23 percent in Germany and France, compared to 6 percent for the native population. (Table 1.8) I’d be curious how these numbers have changed since then.

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/3217494/5727749/KS-31-10-539-EN.PDF/bcf27a60-7016-4fec-98c5-e8488491ebbd

  36. @AndrewR
    One wonders whether these comments are truly representative of NYT reading goodthinkers. Last week I got in a FB debate with my sister and her friend who is an American immigrant in Hungary. They claim the invaders are "refugees". I pointed out that even the UN admits almost three quarters are males. No response, unsurprisingly. The intellectually dishonest, when confronted with unimpeachable facts, prefer to ignore them than admit being wrong.

    Facebook isn’t a good venue for political discussions, especially if you’re college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "Facebook isn’t a good venue for political discussions, especially if you’re college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony."

    I don't use Facebook for political debate, but I am quite clear where I stand on various issues/candidates. I seldom make a political post. The point is to let people know that certain views are acceptable to hold. You don't have to talk about them all the time.
    , @NOTA
    Also, the format favors very short comments and responses, so anything complicated or outside the mainstream at all is almost impossible to discuss effectively.
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "Facebook isn’t a good venue for political discussions, especially if you’re college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony."

    Facebook is an EXCELLENT resource for political discussions...if you know how to use it (and oddly, very few people seem to). What you do, is set up a Facebook Group, and then designate it as Private. You then fill up that Group with interesting people (ideally, no more than a couple dozen active posters), who can be trusted not to rat each other out in the event they do see something they dislike, and voila - no threat of censorship, and no idiots chiming in with PC nonsense. I'm in several private FB Groups (including one where one of the principal writers at this site is a member, for example), and the discussions that go on there are significantly better than even the commenting section at this fine website.
  37. @wolfy
    this is a myth.percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    .percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    But it could well have been higher sans immigration. A lot of post 1965 wage and income growth was given to immigrants. Then, add this to the loss of social cohesion, and the pressure on housing, on private and public institutions; that income doesn’t buy what it could have.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Economists talk all the time about opportunity cost ... except when the topic is immigration.
  38. Leftist conservative [AKA "radical_centrist"] says: • Website
    @Olorin
    In this case I think it's called "the collapse of traditional print newsmedia."

    Even Carlos Slim buying a hefty share of Grey Lady stock and pushing the editorial content and story development guidelines in the direction of his view of what's Boonly (externalizing his lawless and stupid onto El Norte, and hectoring its beleaguered residents to see this as a good thing as their wages are attached to supply welfare dollars to pay for phone calls back to Mehico) doesn't seem to be bailing the model out.

    Meantime, those within that model are having a remarkably hard time comprehending their own irrelevancy to and disengagement with the rank and file.

    Believe me, the MSM panic rooms are fuller by the moment. Between medium collapse and narrative collapse, it's not at all clear how they're going to keep the revenues propped up, particularly with talk of a Wall St. hard correction in the near future.

    Hardening clickbait demographics works to some degree. (What, in this house, we call the "boobs, freaks, and Hitler" model of clickbait.)

    But sites like Unz and Taki, blogs like Those Who Can See, JayMan, and VDARE, and "new right" outlets like Counter-Currents and Radix are leading even those who disagree with the "new right" to do a lot of rethinking and reframing of their own views.

    Viewers/readers may still buy access to and read NYT...but NYT, like The Nation, The Atlantic, and that piece of crap Mother Jones are learning that the audience, not the medium, is the message.

    > I’ve never seen the kind of emphatic opposition to
    > mass immigration that we are now seeing.

    Watching this electron cloud of rank and file opposition coalesce around lightning rods such as Mr. Sailer has been glorious indeed.

    It has left me feeling that maybe AOHell and Zuckerberg couldn't turn every last corner of the Internet into a combination shopping mall, porn palace, and infotainment clickbait currency mint. There are still niches where the awake and thinking and honestly dissenting can talk to one another.

    What's more transformative than people observing as that sort of dialogue proceeds? God knows the MSM don't allow it. One doesn't have to agree to benefit, and that's what the old media don't comprehend, but the Romans did 2,000 years ago: lockstep collapses bridges.

    Who's behind all that new media agora-disputation is another question. I like to think that for every Eye of Soros and Ford Foundation operative pushing the Stalinish MSM, there's 1,000 "quarter-millionaires next door" funding these smaller information projects. You know, the kind of people the Founders had in mind as the ones who should be allowed to vote.

    But there's probably some super rich angels as well.

    Believe me, the MSM panic rooms are fuller by the moment. Between medium collapse and narrative collapse, it’s not at all clear how they’re going to keep the revenues propped up, particularly with talk of a Wall St. hard correction in the near future.

    yes, hardly anyone realizes how interconnected the collapsing real economy is to the MSM slant on immigration. The 2008 financial crisis brought a lot of media outlets nearly to their knees. A lot of experienced journalists had to leave the profession or took pay cuts.

    It was combination of the economy and the internet replacing traditional journalism.

    What we have now is the fed reserve bank and the central banks of other nations propping up the price of assets so as to prevent another collapse. Crucial to preventing another collapse is keeping some degree of growth alive. That is where mass immigration comes in–it is probably the major source of growth for the western economies now. That small degree of growth is critical to preventing another collapse, which would of course take down a lot of media outlets and put a lot of journalists out of work.

    So this is why the media is so voraciously supporting the refugee invasion in europe and toeing the neoliberal party line that maintains that these refugees are quasi-holy.

    This is also why the media hates Trump. His comments about rapist illegals strikes at one of the core tenets of multiculturalism–that immigrants are Good People. It is crucial that white americans think that immigrants are good people. That is part of how they manufacture consent for mass immigration.

    Now, the economic analysis that holds that immigration increases GDP is probably true. But the gains are given mostly to Capital and not to Labor. Also there are many negative effects on the citizens that are not economic.

    Anyway, it is really all about money. Like it always is.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  39. @Shine a Light
    I get maybe 25% of my comments to the NYT's published. I'm usually heretical against the Narrative but not outright rude. So for everyone of these nicey-nice anti-immigration comments, you can well imagine there are plenty of others that don't make it past the filters.

    The Daily Telegraph has pretty much shut down comments. The Guardian very heavily censors. One place where I push a lot of limits is the Washington Post and so far I have not had a problem there. Seriously there are times I go overboard there and nothing ever happens. NRO is almost impossible for me, even if I don't use the word "cuck" my comments there maybe last 3 minutes at best.

    The Washington Post seems to have a high tolerance for crime think comments. Might be Bezos doing. They still have limits though, during the case of the murdered wealthy DC family the comments came in fast & furious. Most were pretty racist blaming blacks for crime & some even advocated for segregation.

    They turned off comments to most stories having to do with the case as a result. Same thing with that UVA girl that was murdered by a black guy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "Ed says:

    The Washington Post seems to have a high tolerance for crime think comments. Might be Bezos doing. They still have limits though, during the case of the murdered wealthy DC family the comments came in fast & furious. Most were pretty racist blaming blacks for crime & some even advocated for segregation."

    Yes, God forbid that anyone should associate blacks with crime. That might be considered racist. Or, even worse, true.
  40. @H2
    Other sites have shut off comments before so no guarantee the NYT will allow them in the future

    Doubtful they’ve just rolled out a notification system for comments. If your comment is liked or replied to you receive a notification.

    The NYT allows comments on a handful of stories a day and most opinion pieces. They’re moderated so they can filter out the loons. Frankly I like their system as opposed to the free wheeling structure at Breitbart where there are thousands of comments of tripe.

  41. @bomag
    .percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    But it could well have been higher sans immigration. A lot of post 1965 wage and income growth was given to immigrants. Then, add this to the loss of social cohesion, and the pressure on housing, on private and public institutions; that income doesn't buy what it could have.

    Economists talk all the time about opportunity cost … except when the topic is immigration.

    • Agree: Travis
  42. @Shine a Light
    I get maybe 25% of my comments to the NYT's published. I'm usually heretical against the Narrative but not outright rude. So for everyone of these nicey-nice anti-immigration comments, you can well imagine there are plenty of others that don't make it past the filters.

    The Daily Telegraph has pretty much shut down comments. The Guardian very heavily censors. One place where I push a lot of limits is the Washington Post and so far I have not had a problem there. Seriously there are times I go overboard there and nothing ever happens. NRO is almost impossible for me, even if I don't use the word "cuck" my comments there maybe last 3 minutes at best.

    NPR also has been known (as will the NYT ) prunes comments after the initial rush and just leave ‘stupid’ opposing comments to make it look like anyone who opposes their article is an idiot.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    Yep. You are on to their system. It's the same in mass-media entertainment. There's nothing more effective with the masses than having an ugly & stupid character denigrating uncontrolled immigration. Works like a charm with sheep.
    , @Shine a Light
    Yes, they are brutal at NPR so I gave up. My comments were fairly tame (attacking Democrats for supporting cheap labor) and they got yanked with a quickness.

    This morning the Guardian opened comments on the Refugee invasion and the comment thread was a blood bath for the Narrative. Nine out of ten massively against. Sometimes there are ironic comments that I read as against but the naive censors could mistake as pro-migrant. The funniest comment asked where all the #MigrantWelcome commentators had gone and the response was, "they're busy installing bars over their windows"
  43. The strangeness associated with the Western “diversity” movement is the movement’s attempt to relativize and trivialize the issues of ethnic, cultural, and religious antagonisms that have historically led to social disruptions, civil wars, and mass migrations in the first place — Shiite vs. Sunni, Muslim vs. Hindi, Catholic vs. Protestant, Christian vs. Muslim, Christian vs. Jew, Africans vs. Europeans, English vs. Irish. You get the idea.

    So, what makes the liberal SJWs believe that the “diversity” movement in Western European societies will succeed? The SJW “new world order”: A society intermixed with large populations of Shiites, Sunnis, Muslims, Hindi, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Black Africans, Europeans, Amerindians, etc., ad nauseam … all living peacefully together in a divinely ordained “Camp of Saints” while enjoying an explosion of ethnic restaurants, colorful dress, and new insights into foreign cultures. What are they thinking?

    The reality is more common sense: The evolution of “no go” areas in Western European and North American cities; that is, Muslim communities in Great Britain and France run in accordance with Sharia Law with mutawa enforcing dress codes for women; “no go” areas for Whites in African-American, Hispanic, and North African communities (choose your continent); the trivialization of education as communities mandate “multicultural” perspectives in the classroom. Indeed, the “multicultural” perspective by its very nature assumes that all cultures are created equal and therefore there is no such thing as “civilization” that one generation passes to another.

    What the SJWs miss is that culture is more than colorful dress and ethnic food. It governs a culture’s understanding of right and wrong; what is good and what is bad; the concept of what is lawful and unlawful; social interaction between the sexes; what is and is not acceptable dress; assumptions about how to raise children (or decide what is and is not child abuse); the roles that men, women, and children play in life. In short, a multicultural society quickly devolves into a “freak show” in which anything goes and nothing works … a Hobbesian nightmare in which life is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short” (Leviathan, Chapters XIII–XIV). Ironically, the Syrians and Iraqis appear to know what this is about as they stampede to the “more civilized” culture of Western Europe to raise their families in safety.

    Who knows? Perhaps someday the Whites in North America and Western Europe might be part of a new mass migration to somewhere else to escape the continual social strife and civil wars in their new “multicultural” societies.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin, Forbes, Kylie
    • Replies: @Maj. Kong

    So, what makes the liberal SJWs believe that the “diversity” movement in Western European societies will succeed? The SJW “new world order”: A society intermixed with large populations of Shiites, Sunnis, Muslims, Hindi, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Black Africans, Europeans, Amerindians, etc., ad nauseam … all living peacefully together in a divinely ordained “Camp of Saints” while enjoying an explosion of ethnic restaurants, colorful dress, and new insights into foreign cultures. What are they thinking?
     
    You need to understand the philosophy of liberalism to get this. Liberals don't think that religion and ethnicity will matter in this new world. They extrapolate the deracination of NW European descended-peoples to somehow apply to everyone, if only they were "freed". John Locke believed, and todays neoconservatives believe that there is a universal desire for freedom, that can escape any "social constructs".

    Voltaire is famous for saying that he would defend to the death the right to say what you want, but he also thought that the Church would be dead in 100 years. While some think the traditional society will voluntarily "wither", others are more circumspect and want it violently uprooted. Islamic immigration is one of the ways to accomplish it.
    , @Yakimi

    The strangeness associated with the Western “diversity” movement is the movement’s attempt to relativize and trivialize the issues of ethnic, cultural, and religious antagonisms that have historically led to social disruptions, civil wars, and mass migrations in the first place
     
    The "diversity" movement is fundamentally antagonistic, and it seeks to wield those historic resentments to left-wing ends. "Diversity" is the popular distillation of intersectionality, in which the hegemony of straight white male oppressors is considered the paramount evil, and must be eroded by a neoproletarian alliance of intersectionally oppressed "minorities".

    Few people actually think in these terms, but they get the gist of it, enough to be suspicious of any homogeneity on the part of whites.

    , @IA
    "Who knows? Perhaps someday the Whites in North America and Western Europe might be part of a new mass migration to somewhere else to escape the continual social strife and civil wars . . ."

    Levittown on Mars.
  44. @Anonym
    This is a glorious thing to see. The only thing I don't understand is why the NYT are still allowing comments, or dishonestly promoting certain pro-immigration articles.

    Sorry, that should have read “The only thing I don’t understand is why the NYT are still allowing comments, or why they haven’t started dishonestly promoting/publishing certain pro-immigration comments.”

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    They are usually better at sorting. And very often, particularly for favorite topics, they permit no comments at all. Too risky.
  45. The funniest thing about this is that malice is never named as the driver of the crazy car. The veneer of do-gooderism is bulletproof.

    Owning the bullhorn has its privileges.

    Mexican immigrants to the US boost GDP, while dragging down GDP per capita. They benefit business owners and upper-middle-class people who want cheap nannies, while hurting people at the bottom end of the economic scale.

    They hurt the average taxpayer, too; socialize the costs, privatize the profits.

    at least these comments get online. In the german newspaper FAZ which is considered to be conservative, a lot of these comments would probably not get published

    Maybe they’re afraid all the undercover cops running the “extreme right” in Germany will make inflammatory statements.

    No response, unsurprisingly. The intellectually dishonest, when confronted with unimpeachable facts, prefer to ignore them than admit being wrong.

    Shutting a liberal up is a victory. It’s human nature not to admit being wrong, and to instead withdraw (or double down, in the case of extremists). It takes a lot of back and forth to move people. The way to persuade is to take the horse to water, and let him think drinking was his idea. I think someone here recently mentioned that Trump featured that in his book on selling. If so, the man is right. 2+2=4 is not the way to persuade. 2+2=? is how it’s done. People get to think they’re being clever when they fill in the answer themselves.

  46. @Shine a Light
    Despite Hungary's brave stand, basically nothing has changed. The refugees are being allowed to pass through Croatia, to Hungary, and then to Austria. 4000 arrived in Austria last night.

    The problem is once they are inside Europe's exterior perimeter, no nation wants to keep them on their territory nor send them back. No Balkan nation wants to become Europe's "panic room" where all the refugees are stuffed into.

    What this means is that despite the border clash theater in Hungary a couple days ago -- nothing has changed and the flows have only been slightly diverted but not slowed down. The Balkan states say the problem has to be solved in Turkey and Greece which is actually correct since no one is man enough in Europe to collect these refugees and physically take them back to Turkey.

    But the EU moves as slowly as a turtle. Germany and France have to get motivated to provide the required border protection in Greece and Turkey. They will drag their feet until the Eastern bloc nations accept forced quotas.

    So this invasion is no where near containment. Even Hungary is wussing out a bit although they are being placed in a terrible position due to no fault of their own.

    Knowing the pace of "action" by the EU, it will be months (if ever) before this invasion is stemmed -- and at that point it will be too late to save a large part of Europe.

    Actually, these migrants are being forced down our throats by the Croatians who happen to have a slimy leftist prime minister who had criticized Hungary but then now is transporting those migrants to Hungary. They even sent a train transport in spite of Hungarian authorities having rejected them (and giving a red light signal!) accompanied by forty armed policemen, in blatant violation of the Schengen border.

    We’ve just started to build a fence on the Croatian border, but honestly I think it would be nice if all border states started building fences.

    • Replies: @Shine a Light
    I agree with the underhandedness of Croatia but that move was not difficult to foresee. The fence is almost irrelevant now -- the Croatians are just busing the migrants up to broder crossings and the Hungarians are taking them. They then send them on to Austria after processing them. A very few stay in Hungary.

    Is Orban just waiting until he has fences around these other border crossings and then he will start to say no to the migrants the Croatians are dumping on him? Not to be too hysterical here but driving busloads of migrants up to your border is bordering (!) on an act of war.

    I get the feeling Orban has blinked. But behind him there are always the boys from Jobbik. In the meantime we are getting some theater but not much action. Of course NONE of this is Hungary's fault -- and us wussies further north are hoping he will pull our chestnuts out of the fire -- well actually chuck those chestnuts all the way back over to Turkey, but it really isn't fair this all falls on Hungary;s shoulders.

    I suppose he is doing what is in his nation's best interest by letting the invasion sweep into Austria. Very few stay behind. It is not his job to alone save Europe.
  47. @reiner Tor
    Actually, these migrants are being forced down our throats by the Croatians who happen to have a slimy leftist prime minister who had criticized Hungary but then now is transporting those migrants to Hungary. They even sent a train transport in spite of Hungarian authorities having rejected them (and giving a red light signal!) accompanied by forty armed policemen, in blatant violation of the Schengen border.

    We've just started to build a fence on the Croatian border, but honestly I think it would be nice if all border states started building fences.

    I agree with the underhandedness of Croatia but that move was not difficult to foresee. The fence is almost irrelevant now — the Croatians are just busing the migrants up to broder crossings and the Hungarians are taking them. They then send them on to Austria after processing them. A very few stay in Hungary.

    Is Orban just waiting until he has fences around these other border crossings and then he will start to say no to the migrants the Croatians are dumping on him? Not to be too hysterical here but driving busloads of migrants up to your border is bordering (!) on an act of war.

    I get the feeling Orban has blinked. But behind him there are always the boys from Jobbik. In the meantime we are getting some theater but not much action. Of course NONE of this is Hungary’s fault — and us wussies further north are hoping he will pull our chestnuts out of the fire — well actually chuck those chestnuts all the way back over to Turkey, but it really isn’t fair this all falls on Hungary;s shoulders.

    I suppose he is doing what is in his nation’s best interest by letting the invasion sweep into Austria. Very few stay behind. It is not his job to alone save Europe.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    We're building the fence on the Croatian border, too. I'm not sure what would happen if then the migrants started coming through Romania, but we also started to build a fence there, too. I suppose once the fence is ready, no more buses will be coming.
  48. “In Britain, for example, immigrants from the rest of Europe pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits, according to an analysis by two economists.”

    This idea that non-European immigrants are overall a great boon to Europe is a myth that has been exploded many times. Christopher Caldwell in his book noted that any positive gains discovered, even if dubious, are quoted in absolute numbers that hide the fact that in percentage terms the benefits of mass immigration are minuscule and in no way compensate for the cultural assault.

    The British study cited above found that early movers from Europe had made a mild net positive fiscal contribution but that migration from outside the EU was a massive fiscal drain. The researchers tried to bury this inconvenient finding.

  49. The commenters are better educated on this that the NT Times pooh bah who wrote it. Anyone have a clue who this might be? I know he or she will right similar garbage in the future. Pity, he might learn something if he read the comments.

  50. I think comment sections are clickbaits. Heavily censored or nonexistent comment sections… not so much. Besides, censorship takes a lot of staff time, which probably the understaffed outlets can’t afford. The fact that there still is a lot of censorship and discontinued comment sections is evidence that these media enterprises are not purely profit-oriented.

  51. @TheJester
    The strangeness associated with the Western "diversity" movement is the movement's attempt to relativize and trivialize the issues of ethnic, cultural, and religious antagonisms that have historically led to social disruptions, civil wars, and mass migrations in the first place -- Shiite vs. Sunni, Muslim vs. Hindi, Catholic vs. Protestant, Christian vs. Muslim, Christian vs. Jew, Africans vs. Europeans, English vs. Irish. You get the idea.

    So, what makes the liberal SJWs believe that the "diversity" movement in Western European societies will succeed? The SJW "new world order": A society intermixed with large populations of Shiites, Sunnis, Muslims, Hindi, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Black Africans, Europeans, Amerindians, etc., ad nauseam ... all living peacefully together in a divinely ordained "Camp of Saints" while enjoying an explosion of ethnic restaurants, colorful dress, and new insights into foreign cultures. What are they thinking?

    The reality is more common sense: The evolution of "no go" areas in Western European and North American cities; that is, Muslim communities in Great Britain and France run in accordance with Sharia Law with mutawa enforcing dress codes for women; "no go" areas for Whites in African-American, Hispanic, and North African communities (choose your continent); the trivialization of education as communities mandate "multicultural" perspectives in the classroom. Indeed, the "multicultural" perspective by its very nature assumes that all cultures are created equal and therefore there is no such thing as "civilization" that one generation passes to another.

    What the SJWs miss is that culture is more than colorful dress and ethnic food. It governs a culture's understanding of right and wrong; what is good and what is bad; the concept of what is lawful and unlawful; social interaction between the sexes; what is and is not acceptable dress; assumptions about how to raise children (or decide what is and is not child abuse); the roles that men, women, and children play in life. In short, a multicultural society quickly devolves into a "freak show" in which anything goes and nothing works ... a Hobbesian nightmare in which life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (Leviathan, Chapters XIII–XIV). Ironically, the Syrians and Iraqis appear to know what this is about as they stampede to the "more civilized" culture of Western Europe to raise their families in safety.

    Who knows? Perhaps someday the Whites in North America and Western Europe might be part of a new mass migration to somewhere else to escape the continual social strife and civil wars in their new "multicultural" societies.

    So, what makes the liberal SJWs believe that the “diversity” movement in Western European societies will succeed? The SJW “new world order”: A society intermixed with large populations of Shiites, Sunnis, Muslims, Hindi, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Black Africans, Europeans, Amerindians, etc., ad nauseam … all living peacefully together in a divinely ordained “Camp of Saints” while enjoying an explosion of ethnic restaurants, colorful dress, and new insights into foreign cultures. What are they thinking?

    You need to understand the philosophy of liberalism to get this. Liberals don’t think that religion and ethnicity will matter in this new world. They extrapolate the deracination of NW European descended-peoples to somehow apply to everyone, if only they were “freed”. John Locke believed, and todays neoconservatives believe that there is a universal desire for freedom, that can escape any “social constructs”.

    Voltaire is famous for saying that he would defend to the death the right to say what you want, but he also thought that the Church would be dead in 100 years. While some think the traditional society will voluntarily “wither”, others are more circumspect and want it violently uprooted. Islamic immigration is one of the ways to accomplish it.

  52. Times comment:
    These migrants will pay more in tax revenue than they will take in benefits??? Seriously???
    Guess what, using blanket stats on ALL immigrants, and applying it to this specific wave of Muslim migration, is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty. Trump isn’t the only crazy person around here…

    Gotta establish your Times cred by calling Trump crazy. The only guy with a clue is crazy. Must be one of those wise fools so common in literature.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    Donald Trump as the incomparable Mulla Nasrudin!

    Trump was standing near a river. A man on the other side shouted to him, “Hey! How can I get across the river?”
    “You are across!“ Trump shouted back.
  53. From one of the top comments:
    Do [Times editorial writers] care that these sorts of open borders, naive editorials are infuriating to many liberal and left readers?

    I really wonder about this too. Does this sort of wrongheadedness cost it subscribers, or credibility on other issues with its readership ? I can kind of understand how the Times gets away with certain seemingly untenable positions, i.e., the endless “How Do We Close the Achievement Gap?” stuff, but its support for the Syrian invasion of Europe is insanely indefensible. I’d love to see a James O’Keefe type exposure of what Times editors really think as they sit around discussing these issues. How can they be this crazy? Perhaps they have to support the Syrian/Muslim invasion of Europe in order to be consistent with their support for the Mexican/CA invasion of the US. It occurred to me during the Ebola outbreak that Obama refused to block immigrants from the affected regions because he didn’t want to plant the idea that it’s possible to block immigrants from anywhere.

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    Yes. The disconnect between the obvious reality and what the MSM peddles in this migrant invasion surely has become hard not to notice.

    I would be more confident that the MSM will pay a price in terms of readers/viewers if there were more alternatives for daily news coverage offering the same breadth; the newspaper of record type of advantage has yet to disappear. Personally I use the MSM for news bulletins but often look for explication elsewhere.

    It would have been nice if so many of the once feisty regional and city papers of the Anglo-sphere had not been turned into free sheets and the like. My impression is that liberal goodthink runs increasingly thin the further east one goes in Europe and more or less evaporates outside it.
    , @Lagertha
    well, the soccer moms of yore are now thinkin' Trump is our guy.
  54. Anyone notice new pics of refugees feature a women in the center of the pic usually surrounded by men?

  55. @Ed
    Facebook isn't a good venue for political discussions, especially if you're college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony.

    “Facebook isn’t a good venue for political discussions, especially if you’re college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony.”

    I don’t use Facebook for political debate, but I am quite clear where I stand on various issues/candidates. I seldom make a political post. The point is to let people know that certain views are acceptable to hold. You don’t have to talk about them all the time.

  56. @Shine a Light
    Despite Hungary's brave stand, basically nothing has changed. The refugees are being allowed to pass through Croatia, to Hungary, and then to Austria. 4000 arrived in Austria last night.

    The problem is once they are inside Europe's exterior perimeter, no nation wants to keep them on their territory nor send them back. No Balkan nation wants to become Europe's "panic room" where all the refugees are stuffed into.

    What this means is that despite the border clash theater in Hungary a couple days ago -- nothing has changed and the flows have only been slightly diverted but not slowed down. The Balkan states say the problem has to be solved in Turkey and Greece which is actually correct since no one is man enough in Europe to collect these refugees and physically take them back to Turkey.

    But the EU moves as slowly as a turtle. Germany and France have to get motivated to provide the required border protection in Greece and Turkey. They will drag their feet until the Eastern bloc nations accept forced quotas.

    So this invasion is no where near containment. Even Hungary is wussing out a bit although they are being placed in a terrible position due to no fault of their own.

    Knowing the pace of "action" by the EU, it will be months (if ever) before this invasion is stemmed -- and at that point it will be too late to save a large part of Europe.

    I wonder if the eastern bloc nations now regret joining the EU?

    • Replies: @Shine a Light
    I'm following things pretty closely and I am not getting that feeling yet. I suppose playing up fears of the big bad Putin just salivating at the teeth to invade them keeps the Eastern Europeans in line to some extent. But their rebellion against this Islamic invasion has been very impressive.
  57. @wolfy
    this is a myth.percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    per-capita income of Americans may not have been reduced by immigration , but certain segments of the population benefited much more than others while others have been hurt economically

    The upper classes and many small business owners benefitted tremendously from the influx of cheap labor, while those in the bottom half have seen wages fall, housing costs rise and their teenage children have less opportunity to find summer jobs and get real work experience

    it is a question of whom benefits and who is hurt by importing low cost workers. Certainly the upper class workers enjoy low cost nannies while high school girls lose the opportunity to babysit and teenage boys lose the opportunity to work part-time busboy jobs etc…

    other effects of massive immigration cannot be seen, driving down White fertility rates due to the higher costs of housing and the disintegration of formerly white areas, diversity also decreases the trust levels and quality of life of and culture of the host nation

  58. In this Saturday’s NYT, the Obama administration announced is is beginning talks with Moscow to coordinate together to fix the problem in Syria. This is a waving white flag of surrender by the West. Perhaps Putin had something to do with the hordes traveling north to Europe.

    While the U.S. position is the replacement of Assad, he, Saddam Hussein and Khadafi are looking pretty good compared to the chaos 15 years of U.S. military and NGO cluster****s have given us.

    My guess is the flow of refugees will be stopping a little closer to home.

    • Replies: @Niccolo Salo
    " Perhaps Putin had something to do with the hordes traveling north to Europe. "

    Not at all. Some 2 million have been sitting in Turkey for some time now and Turkey simply opened up the valve. The reason for this is that the West has been planning to use the refugee/migrant crisis as a new attempt for a causus belli to remove Assad.

    ...problem is that Putin caught on and has sent his advisors and material to bolster the Assad regime in tandem with Iran :)

    Recall that Berlusconi, Putin's close buddy, struck a deal with Gaddafi to end the flow of migrants from Africa to Europe. Gaddafi was removed and all hell broke loose. There is someone else wishing these flows into Europe and it ain't Putin.

    Funny how we never hear about these smugglers and who they are. My speculation is that state intelligence services are making some nice cash off the books by opening up and directing these ratlines.
  59. @Shine a Light
    I get maybe 25% of my comments to the NYT's published. I'm usually heretical against the Narrative but not outright rude. So for everyone of these nicey-nice anti-immigration comments, you can well imagine there are plenty of others that don't make it past the filters.

    The Daily Telegraph has pretty much shut down comments. The Guardian very heavily censors. One place where I push a lot of limits is the Washington Post and so far I have not had a problem there. Seriously there are times I go overboard there and nothing ever happens. NRO is almost impossible for me, even if I don't use the word "cuck" my comments there maybe last 3 minutes at best.

    You might be treated at WaPO as I think I am. I can comment but nobody else sees it. I forget the name for that type of censorship. I had suspected it because nobody ever responded to me no matter how outrageous my post (just to get a rise). They were mostly good conservative comments, I just went overboard to prove my suspicion.

    • Replies: @Shine a Light
    Thanks, I checked and I am still getting responses although not as much as I used to. For a while there I was defending Trump from the LEFT and several people found that quite entertaining. Others were outraged. My comments have been more conventional and boring lately there lately.

    I'm actually having trouble getting in sometimes even with incognito mode...
  60. @wolfy
    this is a myth.percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    percapita income of white Americans is not reduced by Mexican immigration.

    Yeah tell that to all the union construction workers.

    Maybe you mean 10,000 American workers have their pay go down and 100 business owners get all the lost income. So in that case the per capita income is the same.

    • Agree: Kyle McKenna
  61. @anon
    Collated report on the rape wave committed by the Free Stuff Army across Germany which is being kept quiet by the police/media.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

    As Steve says, I’m shocked, shocked.

    “The practice of providing accommodations in large tents, the lack of gender-separate sanitary facilities….”

    How progressive of them.

  62. @White Guy In Japan
    Imagine no more illegal immigrants,
    It isn't hard to do...

    How about no more legal immigrants too?

  63. It does my heart good to see all these (mainly White) liberals talking sensibly about immigration. A cynic might say they’re just SWPLer-types, who only care about Europe because they want it to remain a fashionable boutique destination for their vacation needs. And while I’m sure that’s true for a significant fraction of them, I don’t really worry too much about their motives (although I did find it frustrating, the way several commenters drew a distinction between apparently blood-and-soil Europe that has an authentic, organic culture, and crappy ol’ America, which is nothing to them but a benighted commercial realm, unified by our enthusiasm for inane pop culture).

    Be that as it may, it will be very interesting to see what impact this immigration crisis will have on European politics. We may not have to wait long in order to find out; Greek parliamentary elections are scheduled for tomorrow. Will Golden Dawn become that nation’s 2nd largest party? Wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

  64. “If Arabs were the industrious people you claim, they would have been a boon to their own Middle East, Instead, they destroyed it.”

    Nothing I like better than a really pointed insight.

  65. The fact that there still is a lot of censorship and discontinued comment sections is evidence that these media enterprises are not purely profit-oriented.

    Worth repeating.

  66. @Big Bill
    Who is the famous Jewish wag who said, "I have never met a Judeo-Christian"? Rabbi Stephen Wise?

    Wouldn’t that be the Jews for Jesus guys? They are the ONLY ones who, logically, might be called Judeo-Christian, but they number, what, a few hundred thousand people? Makes it seem like calling Western countries “Judeo-Christian”is a punchline, doesn’t it?

  67. @Harry Baldwin
    Times comment:
    These migrants will pay more in tax revenue than they will take in benefits??? Seriously???
    Guess what, using blanket stats on ALL immigrants, and applying it to this specific wave of Muslim migration, is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty. Trump isn’t the only crazy person around here…


    Gotta establish your Times cred by calling Trump crazy. The only guy with a clue is crazy. Must be one of those wise fools so common in literature.

    Donald Trump as the incomparable Mulla Nasrudin!

    Trump was standing near a river. A man on the other side shouted to him, “Hey! How can I get across the river?”
    “You are across!“ Trump shouted back.

  68. @Ed
    Facebook isn't a good venue for political discussions, especially if you're college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony.

    Also, the format favors very short comments and responses, so anything complicated or outside the mainstream at all is almost impossible to discuss effectively.

  69. @Anonymous
    Liberalism is a mind virus. It's a syndrome whereby the patient off-loads hostility under the guise of do-gooderism. Patient becomes addicted to the thrill of getting away with social destruction that otherwise would be socially unacceptable.

    There is a lot in common between, say, France and Chicago. San Francisco and Sweden. These are places where the virus takes hold.

    If the elites can wall themselves off from the effects of their own policies then the spiral can continue! For decades!

    The funniest thing about this is that malice is never named as the driver of the crazy car. The veneer of do-gooderism is bulletproof.

    Liberalism is a mind virus

    Even the liberal NYT commenters are horrified by this forced mass immigration. And many of the biggest supporters of mass immigration are politically on the right, like the Koch brothers.

    It’s amazing how intelligent and reasonable the comments sound, while the official NYT op-ed sounds deranged. I thought that the newspaper was supposed to conform to the bias of their readers. That is clearly not happening.

    That was fucking spectacular.

    Absolutely! Go liberal NYT commenters, go!!!

  70. There’s a lot of sputtering incoherence in the NYT comments, indicating incipient rage. Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left. Also a number stress the anti-Semitism of the refugees, another way to gain allies.

    I’m sure the NYT is looking at this in terms of the Irish, Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common (The Germans didn’t have it so bad except for the WW1 anti-German mania, and the Chinese hysteria ca. Blaine’s candidacy is also relevant but the numbers were far smaller, not forgetting Japanese in WW2.) So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.

    Badfeels associated with the Euro Refugee crisis are probably being suppressed by NYT management because the association with Latino immigration to America are obvious, even though the Euro case is much worse.

    This is turning into a classic lifeboat problem. Neither US nor EU are where they were 100, 150 years ago. The EU doesn’t have the room, or the resources, except artificially, and the US has the room, but doesn’t want the decline in quality of life that immigrant swarms will bring. Time to reconstruct Lady Liberty and take away the torch and replace it with a stop sign — or a weapon.

    At the same time, lack of native population growth and economic growth as such is going to lead to more stratification in both EU and US, which explains the premium on IQ and education, since lack of growth equals a kind of serfdom or hereditary underclass.

    • Replies: @AnAnon
    "and the US has the room" - the southwest is poised to run out of water in a few decades, likewise we have a bunch of not particularly hospitable terrain that is why our pop density is lower. Immigrants aren't going to be dumped onto some frontier to homestead, they are going straight to the cities, like every wave for the past century.
    , @Jefferson
    " Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left."

    Has any prominent White female politician or White female political pundit in Europe openly opposed letting in masses of 3rd world misogynistic Muslim men into Europe?

    Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions.

    , @Curle

    Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common . . . So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.
     
    Was it, all OK in the end? Sure, the wave of Italian crime gangs has waned but I'm not sure we've gotten past the influence of the Eastern European leftists who came to this country. Alternate histories are hard to assemble, but realistic assessments of past immigration decisions never seem to occur. Plus, the introduction of Africans to these shores, though involuntary, should be used to counter this myth that all peoples can assimilate.
  71. @Ed
    Facebook isn't a good venue for political discussions, especially if you're college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony.

    “Facebook isn’t a good venue for political discussions, especially if you’re college educated. There is too mush signaling being done on Facebook that renders most exchanges inauthentic or phony.”

    Facebook is an EXCELLENT resource for political discussions…if you know how to use it (and oddly, very few people seem to). What you do, is set up a Facebook Group, and then designate it as Private. You then fill up that Group with interesting people (ideally, no more than a couple dozen active posters), who can be trusted not to rat each other out in the event they do see something they dislike, and voila – no threat of censorship, and no idiots chiming in with PC nonsense. I’m in several private FB Groups (including one where one of the principal writers at this site is a member, for example), and the discussions that go on there are significantly better than even the commenting section at this fine website.

  72. @neutral
    On the topic of immigration and economics, the way the NYT likes to frame the narrative is that conservatives should be more concerned about the economy than liberals. They probably have to create this narrative because there really is nothing else the NYT would like conservatives to support. I am no hippie, money is important but it does not drive who I am, and I certainly would never want to destroy my nation to boost GDP by a few percentage points.

    I have had some nasty flame wars online with extreme liberals, the type of liberal that believes the stereotype that conservatives should only care about money, when I reject this, they usually attack me by saying that I am a loser with no money and they even go as far as calling me a socialist or communist. These kind of attacks for me are proof is that they are actually the ones that only care about money, and that they really have nothing more than that they hold in value.

    “I have had some nasty flame wars online with extreme liberals, the type of liberal that believes the stereotype that conservatives should only care about money, when I reject this, they usually attack me by saying that I am a loser with no money and they even go as far as calling me a socialist or communist. These kind of attacks for me are proof is that they are actually the ones that only care about money, and that they really have nothing more than that they hold in value.”

    That is the irony in what many liberals believe: they imagine conservatives to be greedy and heartless, and yet many conservatives have religious motivations which are anything but. They may be naive and foolish, but they are not greedy and heartless. It is liberals, being essentially materialists, who have the more cold and cynical political views and who are more likely motivated by gain. They tend to project their own greediness on to others. Some conservatives do this to, mind you. People who are quick to attribute other peoples actions to greed tend to be greedy and grasping (or at least really cheap) themselves.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Bravo. How did you misunderestimate me?
  73. @Anonymous
    Too bad. The damage is already done. You guys are going down.

    “Too bad. The damage is already done. You guys are going down.”

    And do you imagine that people named Nguyen are going to last in a sea of blacks, mexicans, and arabs?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    And do you imagine that people named Nguyen are going to last in a sea of blacks, mexicans, and arabs?
     
    It helps to have forty million family members to which to turn for aid and comfort.
  74. @TheJester
    The strangeness associated with the Western "diversity" movement is the movement's attempt to relativize and trivialize the issues of ethnic, cultural, and religious antagonisms that have historically led to social disruptions, civil wars, and mass migrations in the first place -- Shiite vs. Sunni, Muslim vs. Hindi, Catholic vs. Protestant, Christian vs. Muslim, Christian vs. Jew, Africans vs. Europeans, English vs. Irish. You get the idea.

    So, what makes the liberal SJWs believe that the "diversity" movement in Western European societies will succeed? The SJW "new world order": A society intermixed with large populations of Shiites, Sunnis, Muslims, Hindi, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Black Africans, Europeans, Amerindians, etc., ad nauseam ... all living peacefully together in a divinely ordained "Camp of Saints" while enjoying an explosion of ethnic restaurants, colorful dress, and new insights into foreign cultures. What are they thinking?

    The reality is more common sense: The evolution of "no go" areas in Western European and North American cities; that is, Muslim communities in Great Britain and France run in accordance with Sharia Law with mutawa enforcing dress codes for women; "no go" areas for Whites in African-American, Hispanic, and North African communities (choose your continent); the trivialization of education as communities mandate "multicultural" perspectives in the classroom. Indeed, the "multicultural" perspective by its very nature assumes that all cultures are created equal and therefore there is no such thing as "civilization" that one generation passes to another.

    What the SJWs miss is that culture is more than colorful dress and ethnic food. It governs a culture's understanding of right and wrong; what is good and what is bad; the concept of what is lawful and unlawful; social interaction between the sexes; what is and is not acceptable dress; assumptions about how to raise children (or decide what is and is not child abuse); the roles that men, women, and children play in life. In short, a multicultural society quickly devolves into a "freak show" in which anything goes and nothing works ... a Hobbesian nightmare in which life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (Leviathan, Chapters XIII–XIV). Ironically, the Syrians and Iraqis appear to know what this is about as they stampede to the "more civilized" culture of Western Europe to raise their families in safety.

    Who knows? Perhaps someday the Whites in North America and Western Europe might be part of a new mass migration to somewhere else to escape the continual social strife and civil wars in their new "multicultural" societies.

    The strangeness associated with the Western “diversity” movement is the movement’s attempt to relativize and trivialize the issues of ethnic, cultural, and religious antagonisms that have historically led to social disruptions, civil wars, and mass migrations in the first place

    The “diversity” movement is fundamentally antagonistic, and it seeks to wield those historic resentments to left-wing ends. “Diversity” is the popular distillation of intersectionality, in which the hegemony of straight white male oppressors is considered the paramount evil, and must be eroded by a neoproletarian alliance of intersectionally oppressed “minorities”.

    Few people actually think in these terms, but they get the gist of it, enough to be suspicious of any homogeneity on the part of whites.

  75. @Ed
    The Washington Post seems to have a high tolerance for crime think comments. Might be Bezos doing. They still have limits though, during the case of the murdered wealthy DC family the comments came in fast & furious. Most were pretty racist blaming blacks for crime & some even advocated for segregation.

    They turned off comments to most stories having to do with the case as a result. Same thing with that UVA girl that was murdered by a black guy.

    “Ed says:

    The Washington Post seems to have a high tolerance for crime think comments. Might be Bezos doing. They still have limits though, during the case of the murdered wealthy DC family the comments came in fast & furious. Most were pretty racist blaming blacks for crime & some even advocated for segregation.”

    Yes, God forbid that anyone should associate blacks with crime. That might be considered racist. Or, even worse, true.

  76. This is the end of the Left. That’s the core of this ongoing crisis, which will drag on for years and probably bring down a lot of societies. The social welfare state is based on the idea of human equality and the idea that social engineering can control human outcomes. This fantasy dominated the 20C; it is a religion to most Westerners, especially their vast bureaucracies. Mass non-Western immigration is exploding this paradigm, one country at a time. Sweden, the granddaddy of social democracies, is beginning to crack. If Swedes decide that their welfare state is actually just a generous nation state, its foundations shift fundamentally. Denmark is already there. This is the end of the Left.

    • Replies: @oh its just me
    oh no, it's just the beginning of the left.
    As richard spencer said, multiculturalism has failed but it's only just beginning to fail.

    The left is engaging in the same strategy that has turned red states to blue and kept them in near absolute control of all major US cities for over a century.

    It doesn't matter if it makes things worse for people - it makes things better for them.
  77. Liberals are just not allowed to admit that immigration to the US legal or illegal, could have other than positive effects. To admit that it could even be a mixed-bag is just unacceptable to them. If they let themselves think that there might be detrimental effects to the host populations, they would feel racist. So they trumpet the idea that all immigration is good immigration. I often try to get liberals to play the Devil’s advocate and ask them if they can think of any negatives about illegal immigration. They just can’t do it. Even the NYT commenters seem willing to defend Europe, because they just luv Europe and can’t bear the idea of Muslim immigrants making Europe less liberal, but they are incapable of defending the US and so in their comments state that migrants to the US are different, because we are a nation of immigrants etc..

  78. The Times seems to be out of touch with their no doubt largely swpl love readership. How come the MSM is *always* saying the same thing – immigration is an unqualified boon. Is it impossible to question the conventional wisdom at all? There’s no downside, for anyone? No one’s been negatively affected by immigration?

    Things are upside down. Do the editors of the Times think their readers are hate filled bigots? All of them? That’s what they call Trump or anyone else making such comments. Have they ever referenced George Borjas, the Harvard economist?

    Is it that they fear getting out of line? Whatever the cause, the immigration is only good all the time crowd is more doctrinaire than the Russian Revolutionaries. (Or whoever).

  79. @SPMoore8
    There's a lot of sputtering incoherence in the NYT comments, indicating incipient rage. Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left. Also a number stress the anti-Semitism of the refugees, another way to gain allies.

    I'm sure the NYT is looking at this in terms of the Irish, Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common (The Germans didn't have it so bad except for the WW1 anti-German mania, and the Chinese hysteria ca. Blaine's candidacy is also relevant but the numbers were far smaller, not forgetting Japanese in WW2.) So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.

    Badfeels associated with the Euro Refugee crisis are probably being suppressed by NYT management because the association with Latino immigration to America are obvious, even though the Euro case is much worse.

    This is turning into a classic lifeboat problem. Neither US nor EU are where they were 100, 150 years ago. The EU doesn't have the room, or the resources, except artificially, and the US has the room, but doesn't want the decline in quality of life that immigrant swarms will bring. Time to reconstruct Lady Liberty and take away the torch and replace it with a stop sign -- or a weapon.

    At the same time, lack of native population growth and economic growth as such is going to lead to more stratification in both EU and US, which explains the premium on IQ and education, since lack of growth equals a kind of serfdom or hereditary underclass.

    “and the US has the room” – the southwest is poised to run out of water in a few decades, likewise we have a bunch of not particularly hospitable terrain that is why our pop density is lower. Immigrants aren’t going to be dumped onto some frontier to homestead, they are going straight to the cities, like every wave for the past century.

    • Agree: Kyle McKenna
  80. @Vendetta
    I'm floored by this. I've seen anti-immigration comments land a lot of support in the NYT comment sections but always alongside some opposite progressive pro-immigration responses as well. I've never seen a solid wall of backlash like this.

    It’s been happening on the comments sections of all sorts of mainstream news sites lately. Some have responded by just flat out censoring and blocking anyone who doesn’t toe the line — see National Review for example.

  81. What else do readers expect of the Carlos Slim Daily?

  82. Leftist Conservative above makes a point worth repeating.

    The doomer blogger Gail Tverberg, who was and maybe still is an actuary, calculated that half of GDP growth is simply population growth. The elites in Europe and the US are running a sort of ponzi scheme where assets are valued on the basis of “growth” in the future. But the growth requires an ever increasing population. If the native population reduces their family size, as has been happening in both the US and Europe (and which historically does happen over time as places become more crowded and the cost of living goes up), then more people will have to be imported. Its really that simple. A big problem for the European elites is that the nearby developing countries with exploding populations are in the Muslim Near East and sub-Sahara Africa, the US elites at least get to bring in Indians from the Andes and Central America.

    The only two countries that I’m aware of where the government has a policy of getting the population down to a more sustainable figure are China and Japan. I wonder if this is an East Asian thing. The Indian government also tried in the 1970s and failed. In Japan low population growth/ population decline has translated directly into really low GDP growth numbers. They will have to go throw several generations who accomplish nothing much, not having the opportunities that come when the economy is growing, but at the end of the century will have a less crowded and less import dependent country that is still culturally Japanese. And people have noted that the “silent depression” in Japan hasn’t really reduced living standards, because with a smaller population there is more go to around per capita, but it probably has limited the numbers of Japanese billionaires.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    The only two countries that I’m aware of where the government has a policy of getting the population down to a more sustainable figure are China and Japan. I wonder if this is an East Asian thing.
     
    Korea has a lower birthrate than Japan.
    Last year, the Korean birthrate was 1.19 children for every woman.
    Japan’s birthrate is recorded at 1.4 per woman while Germany is a little higher at 1.43. The fall in birthrate is a more serious problem for Asian countries like South Korea and Japan where fewer immigrants arrive and fill in for the lost native population.
    http://learningenglish.voanews.com/content/the-end-of-south-korea/2436486.html
    , @Leftist conservative

    The elites in Europe and the US are running a sort of ponzi scheme where assets are valued on the basis of “growth” in the future. But the growth requires an ever increasing population. If the native population reduces their family size, as has been happening in both the US and Europe (and which historically does happen over time as places become more crowded and the cost of living goes up), then more people will have to be imported.
     
    Right. The pro-immigrant propaganda from the corporate media is part of the drive to prop up the economic system in the West by pushing up the value of asset prices. That is one reason the media hates trump--if he were to get into power and deport a bunch of illegals, that would lower real estate prices in america. Less illegals here in america, more apartment vacancies, and so on down the chain. Some prospective illegals would not go to america at all, and that would lower growth, lower asset prices more etc.

    The whole thing really is a ponzi scheme based at least in part on immigration.

    It needs to crash. And stay crashed.


    This "growth" is more like a cancer.
  83. On SPMoore8’s comment above, people keep forgetting that the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965 (there was even a net outflow during the 1930s), which allowed forty years to assimilate those earlier waves of immigration.

    Its also obviously alot easier to assimilate Catholics into a dominant Protestant culture than to assimilate Muslims into Christian cultures.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "On SPMoore8′s comment above, people keep forgetting that the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965 (there was even a net outflow during the 1930s), which allowed forty years to assimilate those earlier waves of immigration.

    Its also obviously alot easier to assimilate Catholics into a dominant Protestant culture than to assimilate Muslims into Christian cultures."

    Indeed, that is why when Left Wingers compare Muslim immigrants in Europe to Ellis Island Italian immigrants in the U.S it is like comparing apples to oranges.

    Italians in the U.S are not committing terrorist attacks and Italians in the U.S are not over represented among welfare recipients.

    , @Kyle McKenna

    the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965
     
    Sorry but this is quite mistaken. The USA had quotas for most countries during this period, designed to reinforce the existing ethnic mix; two conspicuous exceptions being Canada and Mexico, from which any number could migrate. The door was never, ever closed or anything remotely like that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

    The National Origins Act was as instrumental as anything at placing the USA atop the world's nations and keeping her there, until the disastrous Hart-Celler Act of 1965 which set in place the ruinous path we now inhabit.

  84. @SPMoore8
    There's a lot of sputtering incoherence in the NYT comments, indicating incipient rage. Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left. Also a number stress the anti-Semitism of the refugees, another way to gain allies.

    I'm sure the NYT is looking at this in terms of the Irish, Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common (The Germans didn't have it so bad except for the WW1 anti-German mania, and the Chinese hysteria ca. Blaine's candidacy is also relevant but the numbers were far smaller, not forgetting Japanese in WW2.) So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.

    Badfeels associated with the Euro Refugee crisis are probably being suppressed by NYT management because the association with Latino immigration to America are obvious, even though the Euro case is much worse.

    This is turning into a classic lifeboat problem. Neither US nor EU are where they were 100, 150 years ago. The EU doesn't have the room, or the resources, except artificially, and the US has the room, but doesn't want the decline in quality of life that immigrant swarms will bring. Time to reconstruct Lady Liberty and take away the torch and replace it with a stop sign -- or a weapon.

    At the same time, lack of native population growth and economic growth as such is going to lead to more stratification in both EU and US, which explains the premium on IQ and education, since lack of growth equals a kind of serfdom or hereditary underclass.

    ” Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left.”

    Has any prominent White female politician or White female political pundit in Europe openly opposed letting in masses of 3rd world misogynistic Muslim men into Europe?

    Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions.

    • Replies: @Das
    "Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions."

    You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool.

    There's definitely coalitions to be built between the anti-immigrant right and sections of the left.

    Steve likes to complain about Democrats and their divisive KKKrazy-Glue holding their coalition together, but the right is pointlessly divisive in yammering about the "Food Stamp President" and gay marriage, which makes it hard to build a broader anti-immigration coalition.
    , @Harold
    Marine Le Pen.
  85. @Anonym
    Sorry, that should have read "The only thing I don’t understand is why the NYT are still allowing comments, or why they haven't started dishonestly promoting/publishing certain pro-immigration comments."

    They are usually better at sorting. And very often, particularly for favorite topics, they permit no comments at all. Too risky.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Absolutely. Almost any time they want to say something contentious, they don't permit comments.
  86. @oh its just me
    NPR also has been known (as will the NYT ) prunes comments after the initial rush and just leave 'stupid' opposing comments to make it look like anyone who opposes their article is an idiot.

    Yep. You are on to their system. It’s the same in mass-media entertainment. There’s nothing more effective with the masses than having an ugly & stupid character denigrating uncontrolled immigration. Works like a charm with sheep.

  87. The beauty of comment sections is that the journalists tasked with reading them have to read them. It is difficult to maintain ideological purity in cases where your ideology is wrong and you have to read through thousands of opposing views, some of which are very well articulated. Maybe this is why the NYT is allowing such comments… a cadre in the NYT have been converted. Just a guess.

    When we start seeing a few major politicians, papers, TV stations and film production companies on our side… it is the beginning of the end for PC. Once the lines break it may turn into a rout.

  88. Hm, my opinion of the Times readership has risen somewhat after reading this.

    These are the exact same people who lectured us on how great NAFTA would be for the American worker, and anyway, it’s all inevitable via the forces of history so stfu already. How did that work out?

    Haha, they closed that comment section down right quick now!

  89. @km
    This is the end of the Left. That's the core of this ongoing crisis, which will drag on for years and probably bring down a lot of societies. The social welfare state is based on the idea of human equality and the idea that social engineering can control human outcomes. This fantasy dominated the 20C; it is a religion to most Westerners, especially their vast bureaucracies. Mass non-Western immigration is exploding this paradigm, one country at a time. Sweden, the granddaddy of social democracies, is beginning to crack. If Swedes decide that their welfare state is actually just a generous nation state, its foundations shift fundamentally. Denmark is already there. This is the end of the Left.

    oh no, it’s just the beginning of the left.
    As richard spencer said, multiculturalism has failed but it’s only just beginning to fail.

    The left is engaging in the same strategy that has turned red states to blue and kept them in near absolute control of all major US cities for over a century.

    It doesn’t matter if it makes things worse for people – it makes things better for them.

  90. @Shine a Light
    I agree with the underhandedness of Croatia but that move was not difficult to foresee. The fence is almost irrelevant now -- the Croatians are just busing the migrants up to broder crossings and the Hungarians are taking them. They then send them on to Austria after processing them. A very few stay in Hungary.

    Is Orban just waiting until he has fences around these other border crossings and then he will start to say no to the migrants the Croatians are dumping on him? Not to be too hysterical here but driving busloads of migrants up to your border is bordering (!) on an act of war.

    I get the feeling Orban has blinked. But behind him there are always the boys from Jobbik. In the meantime we are getting some theater but not much action. Of course NONE of this is Hungary's fault -- and us wussies further north are hoping he will pull our chestnuts out of the fire -- well actually chuck those chestnuts all the way back over to Turkey, but it really isn't fair this all falls on Hungary;s shoulders.

    I suppose he is doing what is in his nation's best interest by letting the invasion sweep into Austria. Very few stay behind. It is not his job to alone save Europe.

    We’re building the fence on the Croatian border, too. I’m not sure what would happen if then the migrants started coming through Romania, but we also started to build a fence there, too. I suppose once the fence is ready, no more buses will be coming.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The migrants may try to climb the fences as people have done in Ceuta and Melilla (Spanish enclaves on the North African coast). Hungary needs to make the fences formidable obstacles. Perhaps multiple layers of fencing, fencing made of razor wire, or electrification of the fences would work. It also needs to patrol the fenced areas because no doubt some migrants will try to tunnel under the fence.
  91. @Muse
    In this Saturday's NYT, the Obama administration announced is is beginning talks with Moscow to coordinate together to fix the problem in Syria. This is a waving white flag of surrender by the West. Perhaps Putin had something to do with the hordes traveling north to Europe.

    While the U.S. position is the replacement of Assad, he, Saddam Hussein and Khadafi are looking pretty good compared to the chaos 15 years of U.S. military and NGO cluster****s have given us.

    My guess is the flow of refugees will be stopping a little closer to home.

    ” Perhaps Putin had something to do with the hordes traveling north to Europe. ”

    Not at all. Some 2 million have been sitting in Turkey for some time now and Turkey simply opened up the valve. The reason for this is that the West has been planning to use the refugee/migrant crisis as a new attempt for a causus belli to remove Assad.

    …problem is that Putin caught on and has sent his advisors and material to bolster the Assad regime in tandem with Iran 🙂

    Recall that Berlusconi, Putin’s close buddy, struck a deal with Gaddafi to end the flow of migrants from Africa to Europe. Gaddafi was removed and all hell broke loose. There is someone else wishing these flows into Europe and it ain’t Putin.

    Funny how we never hear about these smugglers and who they are. My speculation is that state intelligence services are making some nice cash off the books by opening up and directing these ratlines.

  92. @TheJester
    The strangeness associated with the Western "diversity" movement is the movement's attempt to relativize and trivialize the issues of ethnic, cultural, and religious antagonisms that have historically led to social disruptions, civil wars, and mass migrations in the first place -- Shiite vs. Sunni, Muslim vs. Hindi, Catholic vs. Protestant, Christian vs. Muslim, Christian vs. Jew, Africans vs. Europeans, English vs. Irish. You get the idea.

    So, what makes the liberal SJWs believe that the "diversity" movement in Western European societies will succeed? The SJW "new world order": A society intermixed with large populations of Shiites, Sunnis, Muslims, Hindi, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Black Africans, Europeans, Amerindians, etc., ad nauseam ... all living peacefully together in a divinely ordained "Camp of Saints" while enjoying an explosion of ethnic restaurants, colorful dress, and new insights into foreign cultures. What are they thinking?

    The reality is more common sense: The evolution of "no go" areas in Western European and North American cities; that is, Muslim communities in Great Britain and France run in accordance with Sharia Law with mutawa enforcing dress codes for women; "no go" areas for Whites in African-American, Hispanic, and North African communities (choose your continent); the trivialization of education as communities mandate "multicultural" perspectives in the classroom. Indeed, the "multicultural" perspective by its very nature assumes that all cultures are created equal and therefore there is no such thing as "civilization" that one generation passes to another.

    What the SJWs miss is that culture is more than colorful dress and ethnic food. It governs a culture's understanding of right and wrong; what is good and what is bad; the concept of what is lawful and unlawful; social interaction between the sexes; what is and is not acceptable dress; assumptions about how to raise children (or decide what is and is not child abuse); the roles that men, women, and children play in life. In short, a multicultural society quickly devolves into a "freak show" in which anything goes and nothing works ... a Hobbesian nightmare in which life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (Leviathan, Chapters XIII–XIV). Ironically, the Syrians and Iraqis appear to know what this is about as they stampede to the "more civilized" culture of Western Europe to raise their families in safety.

    Who knows? Perhaps someday the Whites in North America and Western Europe might be part of a new mass migration to somewhere else to escape the continual social strife and civil wars in their new "multicultural" societies.

    “Who knows? Perhaps someday the Whites in North America and Western Europe might be part of a new mass migration to somewhere else to escape the continual social strife and civil wars . . .”

    Levittown on Mars.

  93. @Ed
    Leftist Conservative above makes a point worth repeating.

    The doomer blogger Gail Tverberg, who was and maybe still is an actuary, calculated that half of GDP growth is simply population growth. The elites in Europe and the US are running a sort of ponzi scheme where assets are valued on the basis of "growth" in the future. But the growth requires an ever increasing population. If the native population reduces their family size, as has been happening in both the US and Europe (and which historically does happen over time as places become more crowded and the cost of living goes up), then more people will have to be imported. Its really that simple. A big problem for the European elites is that the nearby developing countries with exploding populations are in the Muslim Near East and sub-Sahara Africa, the US elites at least get to bring in Indians from the Andes and Central America.

    The only two countries that I'm aware of where the government has a policy of getting the population down to a more sustainable figure are China and Japan. I wonder if this is an East Asian thing. The Indian government also tried in the 1970s and failed. In Japan low population growth/ population decline has translated directly into really low GDP growth numbers. They will have to go throw several generations who accomplish nothing much, not having the opportunities that come when the economy is growing, but at the end of the century will have a less crowded and less import dependent country that is still culturally Japanese. And people have noted that the "silent depression" in Japan hasn't really reduced living standards, because with a smaller population there is more go to around per capita, but it probably has limited the numbers of Japanese billionaires.

    The only two countries that I’m aware of where the government has a policy of getting the population down to a more sustainable figure are China and Japan. I wonder if this is an East Asian thing.

    Korea has a lower birthrate than Japan.
    Last year, the Korean birthrate was 1.19 children for every woman.
    Japan’s birthrate is recorded at 1.4 per woman while Germany is a little higher at 1.43. The fall in birthrate is a more serious problem for Asian countries like South Korea and Japan where fewer immigrants arrive and fill in for the lost native population.
    http://learningenglish.voanews.com/content/the-end-of-south-korea/2436486.html

    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    the Korean birthrate was 1.19 children for every woman.
    Japan’s birthrate is recorded at 1.4 per woman while Germany is a little higher at 1.43. The fall in birthrate is a more serious problem for Asian countries like South Korea and Japan where fewer immigrants arrive and fill in for the lost native population.
     
    You sound like the editorial board of the NY Times.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Why is it a serious problem for two of the most technologically advanced countries in the world?

    It doesn't take number of people to produce goods and services today, given automation. Consider the alternative of too many people and two
    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/645369378482094081
  94. @Ed
    On SPMoore8's comment above, people keep forgetting that the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965 (there was even a net outflow during the 1930s), which allowed forty years to assimilate those earlier waves of immigration.

    Its also obviously alot easier to assimilate Catholics into a dominant Protestant culture than to assimilate Muslims into Christian cultures.

    “On SPMoore8′s comment above, people keep forgetting that the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965 (there was even a net outflow during the 1930s), which allowed forty years to assimilate those earlier waves of immigration.

    Its also obviously alot easier to assimilate Catholics into a dominant Protestant culture than to assimilate Muslims into Christian cultures.”

    Indeed, that is why when Left Wingers compare Muslim immigrants in Europe to Ellis Island Italian immigrants in the U.S it is like comparing apples to oranges.

    Italians in the U.S are not committing terrorist attacks and Italians in the U.S are not over represented among welfare recipients.

    • Replies: @oh its just me
    40% of italians went BACK - back then there was no welfare state
  95. It seems the closer to the World Trade Center Towers the liberal was, the crazier he is.

  96. It is really amazing.

    The Times’ own readers/subscribers are appalled by the knee-jerk jerkism of the masters, the people controlling the Times.

    The Sulzberger family needs a micro-revolt.

    Surely there is a sane niece or nephew or an in-law among their ranks who is sensible enough to spike such ludicrous embarrassing nonsense and in this case dismiss the perpetrators.

  97. @Kyle McKenna
    They are usually better at sorting. And very often, particularly for favorite topics, they permit no comments at all. Too risky.

    Absolutely. Almost any time they want to say something contentious, they don’t permit comments.

  98. @Jefferson
    "On SPMoore8′s comment above, people keep forgetting that the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965 (there was even a net outflow during the 1930s), which allowed forty years to assimilate those earlier waves of immigration.

    Its also obviously alot easier to assimilate Catholics into a dominant Protestant culture than to assimilate Muslims into Christian cultures."

    Indeed, that is why when Left Wingers compare Muslim immigrants in Europe to Ellis Island Italian immigrants in the U.S it is like comparing apples to oranges.

    Italians in the U.S are not committing terrorist attacks and Italians in the U.S are not over represented among welfare recipients.

    40% of italians went BACK – back then there was no welfare state

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "40% of italians went BACK – back then there was no welfare state"

    Italians in the U.S are under represented among welfare recipients today in 2015. Not too many Americans on welfare have last names like Cavazzini and Gannascoli.

  99. @Vendetta
    I'm floored by this. I've seen anti-immigration comments land a lot of support in the NYT comment sections but always alongside some opposite progressive pro-immigration responses as well. I've never seen a solid wall of backlash like this.

    I think this is one of the few times where I have seen the top comments on more conservative publications closely match those on liberal sites. Us commoners are now calling out the media/politicians and their pathological altruist followers on this. Many commenters correctly note that most of the migrants are fit young men, yet the media acts like over half of them are comprised of women, children and the disabled.

    As others have asked, what is the end game of this project? What is the narratives goal?

  100. @Jefferson
    " Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left."

    Has any prominent White female politician or White female political pundit in Europe openly opposed letting in masses of 3rd world misogynistic Muslim men into Europe?

    Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions.

    “Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions.”

    You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool.

    There’s definitely coalitions to be built between the anti-immigrant right and sections of the left.

    Steve likes to complain about Democrats and their divisive KKKrazy-Glue holding their coalition together, but the right is pointlessly divisive in yammering about the “Food Stamp President” and gay marriage, which makes it hard to build a broader anti-immigration coalition.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool."

    Cut out your PC tomfoolery. There is no such thing called 'homophobia', and Islamic values are better than feminism.
    Not that I like Islam or agree with Muslim nuttery, but feminism is even nuttier.

    At least Islam as a culture ensures the survival of a people. Feminism leads to racial and national suicide. Leaving aside immigrants, if the West had to adopt Islam or feminims, it should go with Islam. Islam is nutty, but feminism is a death cult. Chechens as Muslims are kinda nutty, but they are a hardy people.

    Feminism's contradiction is self-defeating but also brings down mankind.
    Feminism stresses collective identity of womanhood and individual identity of narcissism.
    But the core identity of a woman or a man should be family and then ethnos.
    Collective identity of Sisterhood is ridiculous since women cannot produce life among themselves. Also, while women can be friends with one another, they really wanna fall in love with a man. Same goes for men. Men can be buddies with one another, but true love is with a woman. And man and woman produce a kid. So, the core unit is the family.
    But people also need a culture and history, and every people have their own heritage, identity, and narrative. So, the creation of a family is seen as a being part of the larger family of race, nation, and culture. A true woman has a kid because she values her race and sees the kid as a another member of the race who will carry the torch of her people. (Islam at least ensures that even though its rules on womanhood is too strict.)

    But a feminist is cut off from thoughts of race, culture, and history. Because she has no sense of race, she only thinks about herself, or me, me, me. So, the main priority is money and personal power. And the thought of having a kid makes her feel powerless since she only feels her personal freedom has been constrained. If she thought racially, she would feel powerful through her children as she would see herself as creator of future white folks to carry on with the torch of identity. But since she rejects white identity and interest, she sees having a kid as a burden.
    Or, she might have a kid simply to serve her vanity of being a mother and fulfilling her personal happiness. It's no wonder that such women often adopt African babies. It's like buying a baby doll to play the role of mother. She sees the hubby and kiddie as serving her need for self-fulfillment than seeing herself as serving the greater mission of preserving her own race. Now, self-fulfillment is a part of life, but since our lives our short, we need a bigger vision of our place in the grander scheme of things.

    Feminism's collective identity makes no sense since sisterhood is not natural. The idea that a Turkish woman should feel closer to African women and Israeli women than with her Turkish national male kin is ridiculous. That a wife should identify more with next door wife than with her own husband and sons is ridiculous. Feminist collective identity is a social construct. Sure, women become friends and can have fun together and can discuss things they wouldn't with men, BUT the core identity of women and men must be the family cuz it is the epicenter of love and life.

    As for an identity of individual narcissism, it's shallow cuz it's premised on the notion that oneself if the center of the universe than a link in the continuum of life and history. What is the difference between human and beask? A bear or tiger has no sense of history or culture. It only lives for its pleasure and food and self-fulfillment.
    In contrast, humans have a sense of history, heritage, culture, & future, and he or she shapes his/her life in accordance to this understanding. But maybe this understanding no longer exists cuz we are acculturated not by family, community, and culture but by the opiate of pop culture that makes us gaze nonstop at vapid celebrities and because we are indoctrinated by PC that says history teaches us nothing but 'white guilt' and how it is so important that we worship homos.
    , @rod1963
    Those warning of the incompatibility of Islam and the West have been repeatedly demonized by the Left and GOP elites since day one.

    Why do you think we didn't hit Saudi Arabia after 9/11 when we found out that the bulk of the attackers were funded by them as well as the radical brand of Islam they were following?

    Our elites aren't interested. Neither is the Left that went out of it's way to protect and promote Islam. In England, criticism of Islam is punishable by prison time thanks to the Left.

    Our elites are more interested in globalization and confronting Islam means a end to globalization. Can't have that.

    The problem with the Left is that is a good portion of it is virulently anti-white and any criticism of the brown skinned 3rd worlders is considered the most horrible act imaginable. Muslims are saints in their view.

    Even when one of their own dares they are attacked. Take Bruce Bawer, a gay in Europe who has written the lethal threat Islam poses to Gays. He ended up ostracized, the Gays didn't want to hear it.

    Feminists are no better, most don't want to hear the warnings made by female Muslim apostates in regards to the treatment of women by Muslims. Why? Because it attacks the dogma that white males are the primary source of female oppression in the world.

    For the time being, until the Left and the elites gets off their suicide binge or they are removed from power, it will be the white nationalists that will have to try and protect Europe from Islam and protect themselves from attacks from the Left and elites.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    "You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe"

    I don't know. Without going all Heartiste, women en masse seem to like to be on whichever side's winning (the UK Times newspaper has that same yearning) - they were famously more culturally conservative than UK men back until probably the 1980s, now they're more liberal than men. There's some old video of Hitler surrounded by ecstatic Frauleins, eyes shining.

    And most of the lesbian feminists (Julie Bindel excepted) are turning a blind eye to industrial-scale child rape because racism. By the time the morality police come for them there won't be much solidarity from the sisters. Allegra Mostyn-Owen (ex Mrs Boris Johnson, Tatler cover girl in her time) is my canary in the coal mine here.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1243624/Revealed-The-Muslim-toyboy-whos-secretly-married-Boriss-ex-wife.html
  101. Anyway, upper-middle-class Times readers tend to know which side their bread is buttered.

    They’re not competing with Mexicans in the labor market or the housing market, so they don’t really see the problem with letting hard-working Pedro mow their lawn.

    Mohammad throwing rocks at police officers in Hungary gets a totally different reaction. They know *that* is not going to be good for the gays, the Jews, or upper-middle-class liberals in general.

    • Replies: @e
    They’re not competing with Mexicans in the labor market or the housing market, so they don’t really see the problem with letting hard-working Pedro mow their lawn.

    Then they have blinders on: the extensive CA prison system is heavy with inmates that are the progeny of the Pedros who mow lawns.
  102. @oh its just me
    40% of italians went BACK - back then there was no welfare state

    “40% of italians went BACK – back then there was no welfare state”

    Italians in the U.S are under represented among welfare recipients today in 2015. Not too many Americans on welfare have last names like Cavazzini and Gannascoli.

    • Replies: @oh its just me
    point being sir, that there was no mechanism for the less competent italians to stay.
  103. The title of this song perfectly describes how Angela Merkel see the masses of 3rd world Muslims pouring into Europe.

    • Replies: @oh its just me
    ok, i just endured this song for x minutes, and left none the wiser......
  104. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    Didn’t NY have its own camp of saints when all those negroes were let out of prison and allowed to run free? Civil liberty lawyers were saying all them thugs were victims, revolutionaries, falsely charged, misguided, and etc. It was NY’s death wish.

    Looks like NYers got smart and turned NY’s version of camp of saint into prison of negro, and NY got cleaner and safer.

    Granted, I guess NY did gain something from immigrants driving taxis, running restaurants, working as nannies, and etc. It goes to show that not all non-whites are the same.

    Though I’m appalled by all those Middle Easterners rushing into Europe, it would a million times worse if they were negroes from Africa. It’s like if every non-white in LA were a negro, LA would be freaking Detroit.

    But Europe is only Europe if it has genuine Europeans, just like the Middle East is only Middle Eastern if it has Arabs, Kurds, and etc.

    If boon-ism is the core ideology of a nation, then China and India should fill up every nation as Chinese and Indians certainly are hard workers. But what about the character of the nation?

  105. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Sometimes I make the mistake of looking at New Scientist, an Economist-style Fabian “let’s conquer the world via integration and open borders” journal disguised as a popular science magazine.

    The 9-Sept-2015 issue has an editorial and an article that uses the same talking points and claims as the NYT article. The message is that ignorant racist people are against mass immigration and once the “facts” are really understood everyone will see how great immigration and the immigrants are. There’s something truly breathtaking about the combination of ignorance and arrogance displayed by New Scientist here.

    “Europe’s refugees: Making a drama out of a crisis: Our response to the Syrian refugee crisis is driven by fiction, not facts. Only evidence-based policies have any hope of working”, New Scientist, 9-Sept-2015 (in print on 12-Sept-2015):

    “There’s no shortage of misinformation when talking about migration…

    …efforts have …been complicated in many countries by anti-immigration parties spreading misinformation… When politics takes precedence over facts, tragedies tend to happen.

    …We can, and must, do better. The key word is “misinformation”. Complex issues require nations to respond in an informed and sophisticated way, bringing all the available evidence to bear, acting on it – and explaining it to reluctant electorates if needed. By these criteria, Europe has failed miserably

    …labour migration into Western Europe has been falling steadily since 2007.

    …since 2000, immigrants in the UK paid more into government coffers than they took out in benefits… even managed this during a time of government deficits, when by definition the native majority was a net drain on public resources.

    …knee-jerk assumptions about human migration often crumble under proper scrutiny.

    …like it or not, the present crisis is just the start.

    …large-scale migration will be a defining issues of this century, driven by population growth, political instability and climate change, and enabled by increased global connectivity, both physical and digital. We cannot stop it by building fences or turning away boats. So we had better get a handle on it now.”

    Notice the awesome ‘if governments overspend, the native population is a drain, so we must have immigration’. Great jumble of words that could be mistaken for an argument! And of course the classic argument by inevitability. And climate! proves its all the fault of the West.

    “Why welcoming more refugees makes economic sense for Europe: Europe’s leaders are under pressure to accept 130,000 more refugees, mostly from Syria. It’s not just the right thing to do, it makes economic sense”, Special report, New Scientist, 9 September 2015:

    “…fear that letting in some refugees will encourage more, and that migrants will be an economic burden. Yet the evidence shows both beliefs are false. …

    …“No existing sound research substantiates the political claim that giving people asylum in Europe stimulates more flow,” says Alexander Betts, head of the Refugee Studies Centre at the University of Oxford. “Nearly all refugees want to go home. They don’t sit in refugee camps calculating where they can get the best benefits.”…

    “There is no evidence of a pull factor,” agrees Ian Goldin, head of the Oxford Martin School on global challenges. …Desperate people don’t make that calculation.”

    …Germany had 200,000 more deaths than births in 2012, more than compensated by 391,000 immigrants. …

    …migrants needn’t be a burden. On 4 September the World Bank, the UN’s International Labour Organization and the OECD club of rich countries issued a report concluding that “in most countries migrants pay more in taxes and social contributions than they receive.”

    …That is partly because most migrants are young and need relatively little in the way of benefits.

    …Carlos Vargas-Silva of the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford reported this year that letting in 260,000 immigrants a year could halve the UK’s public debt 50 years from now. …

    …“There can be local negative effects on jobs, but that can be managed,” says Betts. For example minimum wages can stop immigrants undercutting locals.

    …Some studies show migrants create jobs for locals, says Mathias Czaika of the International Migration Institute at the University of Oxford. `…Mostly the impact on wages or jobs is neutral or positive.’

    …So why do doors stay shut…? …fear of the cultural impact of foreigners. …

    …Europe will have to learn how to deal with cultural differences, and get its asylum rules in order, because more refugees are coming.

    … “…other countries with large numbers of refugees, like Kenya, need more help, or the entire refugee regime will collapse.”

    Climate triggered the crisis in Syria, so the world must brace itself for more climate refugees in the years to come.

    Climate refugees. I think I get it!

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    You're right. That was awful. Dishonesty laced with a sly wink.
  106. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:
    @Das
    "Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions."

    You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool.

    There's definitely coalitions to be built between the anti-immigrant right and sections of the left.

    Steve likes to complain about Democrats and their divisive KKKrazy-Glue holding their coalition together, but the right is pointlessly divisive in yammering about the "Food Stamp President" and gay marriage, which makes it hard to build a broader anti-immigration coalition.

    “You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool.”

    Cut out your PC tomfoolery. There is no such thing called ‘homophobia’, and Islamic values are better than feminism.
    Not that I like Islam or agree with Muslim nuttery, but feminism is even nuttier.

    At least Islam as a culture ensures the survival of a people. Feminism leads to racial and national suicide. Leaving aside immigrants, if the West had to adopt Islam or feminims, it should go with Islam. Islam is nutty, but feminism is a death cult. Chechens as Muslims are kinda nutty, but they are a hardy people.

    Feminism’s contradiction is self-defeating but also brings down mankind.
    Feminism stresses collective identity of womanhood and individual identity of narcissism.
    But the core identity of a woman or a man should be family and then ethnos.
    Collective identity of Sisterhood is ridiculous since women cannot produce life among themselves. Also, while women can be friends with one another, they really wanna fall in love with a man. Same goes for men. Men can be buddies with one another, but true love is with a woman. And man and woman produce a kid. So, the core unit is the family.
    But people also need a culture and history, and every people have their own heritage, identity, and narrative. So, the creation of a family is seen as a being part of the larger family of race, nation, and culture. A true woman has a kid because she values her race and sees the kid as a another member of the race who will carry the torch of her people. (Islam at least ensures that even though its rules on womanhood is too strict.)

    But a feminist is cut off from thoughts of race, culture, and history. Because she has no sense of race, she only thinks about herself, or me, me, me. So, the main priority is money and personal power. And the thought of having a kid makes her feel powerless since she only feels her personal freedom has been constrained. If she thought racially, she would feel powerful through her children as she would see herself as creator of future white folks to carry on with the torch of identity. But since she rejects white identity and interest, she sees having a kid as a burden.
    Or, she might have a kid simply to serve her vanity of being a mother and fulfilling her personal happiness. It’s no wonder that such women often adopt African babies. It’s like buying a baby doll to play the role of mother. She sees the hubby and kiddie as serving her need for self-fulfillment than seeing herself as serving the greater mission of preserving her own race. Now, self-fulfillment is a part of life, but since our lives our short, we need a bigger vision of our place in the grander scheme of things.

    Feminism’s collective identity makes no sense since sisterhood is not natural. The idea that a Turkish woman should feel closer to African women and Israeli women than with her Turkish national male kin is ridiculous. That a wife should identify more with next door wife than with her own husband and sons is ridiculous. Feminist collective identity is a social construct. Sure, women become friends and can have fun together and can discuss things they wouldn’t with men, BUT the core identity of women and men must be the family cuz it is the epicenter of love and life.

    As for an identity of individual narcissism, it’s shallow cuz it’s premised on the notion that oneself if the center of the universe than a link in the continuum of life and history. What is the difference between human and beask? A bear or tiger has no sense of history or culture. It only lives for its pleasure and food and self-fulfillment.
    In contrast, humans have a sense of history, heritage, culture, & future, and he or she shapes his/her life in accordance to this understanding. But maybe this understanding no longer exists cuz we are acculturated not by family, community, and culture but by the opiate of pop culture that makes us gaze nonstop at vapid celebrities and because we are indoctrinated by PC that says history teaches us nothing but ‘white guilt’ and how it is so important that we worship homos.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Cut out your PC tomfoolery. There is no such thing called ‘homophobia’, and Islamic values are better than feminism."

    Islamic values = 3rd world values. That is why the vast majority of Muslim countries are poverty stricken 3rd world toilets. The only reason there is wealth in the Gulf Arab states is because of oil. If it wasn't for oil, countries like Kuwait and Qatar would still be in the stone age in terms of standards of living.

    " if the West had to adopt Islam or feminims, it should go with Islam. Islam is nutty, but feminism is a death cult. "

    Islam is the mother of all death cults in terms of murdering people who are religiously different from them. The Boston bombing, 9/11, the Madrid bombing, the Paris mass shooting, the Madrid bombing, the Armenian genocide, etc.

    Islam is responsible for way more deaths worldwide than Feminism ever will, by a huge landslide. Islam is such an extremely violent cult that I am surprised a Black man did not invent that religion.

    I can see why such an extremely violent religion like Islam attracts so many Black male prison inmates to want to convert.

  107. @Ed
    On SPMoore8's comment above, people keep forgetting that the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965 (there was even a net outflow during the 1930s), which allowed forty years to assimilate those earlier waves of immigration.

    Its also obviously alot easier to assimilate Catholics into a dominant Protestant culture than to assimilate Muslims into Christian cultures.

    the borders of the US were closed between 1925 and 1965

    Sorry but this is quite mistaken. The USA had quotas for most countries during this period, designed to reinforce the existing ethnic mix; two conspicuous exceptions being Canada and Mexico, from which any number could migrate. The door was never, ever closed or anything remotely like that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

    The National Origins Act was as instrumental as anything at placing the USA atop the world’s nations and keeping her there, until the disastrous Hart-Celler Act of 1965 which set in place the ruinous path we now inhabit.

  108. @Jefferson
    The title of this song perfectly describes how Angela Merkel see the masses of 3rd world Muslims pouring into Europe.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41GsS3jldOI

    ok, i just endured this song for x minutes, and left none the wiser……

  109. @Jefferson
    "40% of italians went BACK – back then there was no welfare state"

    Italians in the U.S are under represented among welfare recipients today in 2015. Not too many Americans on welfare have last names like Cavazzini and Gannascoli.

    point being sir, that there was no mechanism for the less competent italians to stay.

  110. @Clyde

    The only two countries that I’m aware of where the government has a policy of getting the population down to a more sustainable figure are China and Japan. I wonder if this is an East Asian thing.
     
    Korea has a lower birthrate than Japan.
    Last year, the Korean birthrate was 1.19 children for every woman.
    Japan’s birthrate is recorded at 1.4 per woman while Germany is a little higher at 1.43. The fall in birthrate is a more serious problem for Asian countries like South Korea and Japan where fewer immigrants arrive and fill in for the lost native population.
    http://learningenglish.voanews.com/content/the-end-of-south-korea/2436486.html

    the Korean birthrate was 1.19 children for every woman.
    Japan’s birthrate is recorded at 1.4 per woman while Germany is a little higher at 1.43. The fall in birthrate is a more serious problem for Asian countries like South Korea and Japan where fewer immigrants arrive and fill in for the lost native population.

    You sound like the editorial board of the NY Times.

  111. BBC news reports that Croatia is “forcing” Hungary to take refugees. Something tells me a war might break out real soon.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    BBC news reports that Croatia is “forcing” Hungary to take refugees. Something tells me a war might break out real soon.
     
    Great! Boats of Croats and junks with Hunkies headed for America-- as war refugees.

    Actually, staging a pretend war might discourage the present pseudorefugees somewhat.
  112. @Das
    "Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions."

    You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool.

    There's definitely coalitions to be built between the anti-immigrant right and sections of the left.

    Steve likes to complain about Democrats and their divisive KKKrazy-Glue holding their coalition together, but the right is pointlessly divisive in yammering about the "Food Stamp President" and gay marriage, which makes it hard to build a broader anti-immigration coalition.

    Those warning of the incompatibility of Islam and the West have been repeatedly demonized by the Left and GOP elites since day one.

    Why do you think we didn’t hit Saudi Arabia after 9/11 when we found out that the bulk of the attackers were funded by them as well as the radical brand of Islam they were following?

    Our elites aren’t interested. Neither is the Left that went out of it’s way to protect and promote Islam. In England, criticism of Islam is punishable by prison time thanks to the Left.

    Our elites are more interested in globalization and confronting Islam means a end to globalization. Can’t have that.

    The problem with the Left is that is a good portion of it is virulently anti-white and any criticism of the brown skinned 3rd worlders is considered the most horrible act imaginable. Muslims are saints in their view.

    Even when one of their own dares they are attacked. Take Bruce Bawer, a gay in Europe who has written the lethal threat Islam poses to Gays. He ended up ostracized, the Gays didn’t want to hear it.

    Feminists are no better, most don’t want to hear the warnings made by female Muslim apostates in regards to the treatment of women by Muslims. Why? Because it attacks the dogma that white males are the primary source of female oppression in the world.

    For the time being, until the Left and the elites gets off their suicide binge or they are removed from power, it will be the white nationalists that will have to try and protect Europe from Islam and protect themselves from attacks from the Left and elites.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    with all the apocalyptic things going on, I find it embarrassing, no offensive ( I am a graduate of an elite New England U, and an EU citizen) that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not sought out with her well-documented expertise and wisdom to expound on this quixotic refugee implosion in Europe!!!
  113. @SPMoore8
    There's a lot of sputtering incoherence in the NYT comments, indicating incipient rage. Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left. Also a number stress the anti-Semitism of the refugees, another way to gain allies.

    I'm sure the NYT is looking at this in terms of the Irish, Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common (The Germans didn't have it so bad except for the WW1 anti-German mania, and the Chinese hysteria ca. Blaine's candidacy is also relevant but the numbers were far smaller, not forgetting Japanese in WW2.) So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.

    Badfeels associated with the Euro Refugee crisis are probably being suppressed by NYT management because the association with Latino immigration to America are obvious, even though the Euro case is much worse.

    This is turning into a classic lifeboat problem. Neither US nor EU are where they were 100, 150 years ago. The EU doesn't have the room, or the resources, except artificially, and the US has the room, but doesn't want the decline in quality of life that immigrant swarms will bring. Time to reconstruct Lady Liberty and take away the torch and replace it with a stop sign -- or a weapon.

    At the same time, lack of native population growth and economic growth as such is going to lead to more stratification in both EU and US, which explains the premium on IQ and education, since lack of growth equals a kind of serfdom or hereditary underclass.

    Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common . . . So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.

    Was it, all OK in the end? Sure, the wave of Italian crime gangs has waned but I’m not sure we’ve gotten past the influence of the Eastern European leftists who came to this country. Alternate histories are hard to assemble, but realistic assessments of past immigration decisions never seem to occur. Plus, the introduction of Africans to these shores, though involuntary, should be used to counter this myth that all peoples can assimilate.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Leftists helped put once-radical ideas like getting weekends off inside the Overton Window. It was pretty clever of globalist capitalists to divert leftism from pro-labor activism to pro-immigrant/LGBTQ/minority etc. activism.
    , @Anonymous
    Letting in masses of Eastern European leftists may prove to be the downfall of the USA.

    It's been an absolute disaster.
  114. @Das
    Anyway, upper-middle-class Times readers tend to know which side their bread is buttered.

    They're not competing with Mexicans in the labor market or the housing market, so they don't really see the problem with letting hard-working Pedro mow their lawn.

    Mohammad throwing rocks at police officers in Hungary gets a totally different reaction. They know *that* is not going to be good for the gays, the Jews, or upper-middle-class liberals in general.

    They’re not competing with Mexicans in the labor market or the housing market, so they don’t really see the problem with letting hard-working Pedro mow their lawn.

    Then they have blinders on: the extensive CA prison system is heavy with inmates that are the progeny of the Pedros who mow lawns.

  115. @Clyde

    The only two countries that I’m aware of where the government has a policy of getting the population down to a more sustainable figure are China and Japan. I wonder if this is an East Asian thing.
     
    Korea has a lower birthrate than Japan.
    Last year, the Korean birthrate was 1.19 children for every woman.
    Japan’s birthrate is recorded at 1.4 per woman while Germany is a little higher at 1.43. The fall in birthrate is a more serious problem for Asian countries like South Korea and Japan where fewer immigrants arrive and fill in for the lost native population.
    http://learningenglish.voanews.com/content/the-end-of-south-korea/2436486.html

    Why is it a serious problem for two of the most technologically advanced countries in the world?

    It doesn’t take number of people to produce goods and services today, given automation. Consider the alternative of too many people and two

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    368 posts as tea boys…
     
    I wonder what the response is for posts as peg boys. Seems to work in Afghanistan.
  116. @Anonym
    I know. That is why I find it so amazing that such a liberal bastion still allows them.

    Other sites have shut off comments before so no guarantee the NYT will allow them in the future


    I know. That is why I find it so amazing that such a liberal bastion still allows them.

    A good sign– the filterers may agree with the commenters. Din’t tell the management!

    Or maybe Carlos pays by the word.

  117. @Dave Pinsen
    Why is it a serious problem for two of the most technologically advanced countries in the world?

    It doesn't take number of people to produce goods and services today, given automation. Consider the alternative of too many people and two
    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/645369378482094081

    368 posts as tea boys…

    I wonder what the response is for posts as peg boys. Seems to work in Afghanistan.

  118. @Curle

    Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common . . . So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.
     
    Was it, all OK in the end? Sure, the wave of Italian crime gangs has waned but I'm not sure we've gotten past the influence of the Eastern European leftists who came to this country. Alternate histories are hard to assemble, but realistic assessments of past immigration decisions never seem to occur. Plus, the introduction of Africans to these shores, though involuntary, should be used to counter this myth that all peoples can assimilate.

    Leftists helped put once-radical ideas like getting weekends off inside the Overton Window. It was pretty clever of globalist capitalists to divert leftism from pro-labor activism to pro-immigrant/LGBTQ/minority etc. activism.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    It was pretty clever of globalist capitalists to divert leftism from pro-labor activism to pro-immigrant/LGBTQ/minority etc. activism.
     
    Leftism has never been about anything other than power. They don't need to be "diverted". They have snouts like dogs', and olfactories to match.
    , @iSteveFan

    Leftists helped put once-radical ideas like getting weekends off inside the Overton Window.
     
    I didn't think Henry Ford was exactly a leftist.
  119. @Name Withheld
    BBC news reports that Croatia is "forcing" Hungary to take refugees. Something tells me a war might break out real soon.

    BBC news reports that Croatia is “forcing” Hungary to take refugees. Something tells me a war might break out real soon.

    Great! Boats of Croats and junks with Hunkies headed for America– as war refugees.

    Actually, staging a pretend war might discourage the present pseudorefugees somewhat.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    For hundreds of years, Hungary and Croatia were the same nation - this explains the apparent absurdity of the 'Hungarian navy'.
    So relations between the two nations are like the relations between England and Wales.
  120. @Mr. Anon
    "Too bad. The damage is already done. You guys are going down."

    And do you imagine that people named Nguyen are going to last in a sea of blacks, mexicans, and arabs?

    And do you imagine that people named Nguyen are going to last in a sea of blacks, mexicans, and arabs?

    It helps to have forty million family members to which to turn for aid and comfort.

  121. @Dave Pinsen
    Leftists helped put once-radical ideas like getting weekends off inside the Overton Window. It was pretty clever of globalist capitalists to divert leftism from pro-labor activism to pro-immigrant/LGBTQ/minority etc. activism.

    It was pretty clever of globalist capitalists to divert leftism from pro-labor activism to pro-immigrant/LGBTQ/minority etc. activism.

    Leftism has never been about anything other than power. They don’t need to be “diverted”. They have snouts like dogs’, and olfactories to match.

    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    "Leftism has never been about anything other than power.""

    This is a silly kind of statement that leads to racial self-loathing (in the case of libertarians) or blaming leftism on Jews (in the case of white nationalists). Modern leftism is an outgrowth of western individualism and hunter gatherer naivety, which more ethnocentric and collectivist races like East Asians are less prone to.

    Many otherwise good white people are leftists. They believe in a number of deluded ideas in part because their brains are geared to analysis issues in terms of emotion rather than reason. Why do you think so many single women and most artists and actors are left-liberals? because they are all nasty and selfish?
  122. @Dave Pinsen
    Leftists helped put once-radical ideas like getting weekends off inside the Overton Window. It was pretty clever of globalist capitalists to divert leftism from pro-labor activism to pro-immigrant/LGBTQ/minority etc. activism.

    Leftists helped put once-radical ideas like getting weekends off inside the Overton Window.

    I didn’t think Henry Ford was exactly a leftist.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Henry Ford was sort of a progressive paternalist, along the lines of Michael Bloomberg. But a shorter work week was on the Socialist party platform before Ford instituted it.
  123. @Reg Cæsar

    BBC news reports that Croatia is “forcing” Hungary to take refugees. Something tells me a war might break out real soon.
     
    Great! Boats of Croats and junks with Hunkies headed for America-- as war refugees.

    Actually, staging a pretend war might discourage the present pseudorefugees somewhat.

    For hundreds of years, Hungary and Croatia were the same nation – this explains the apparent absurdity of the ‘Hungarian navy’.
    So relations between the two nations are like the relations between England and Wales.

    • Replies: @HA
    "For hundreds of years, Hungary and Croatia were the same nation – this explains the apparent absurdity of the ‘Hungarian navy’."

    Captain Georg von Trapp, of "Sound of Music" fame, was one of those absurd Austro-Hungarian naval officers, and sank 13 Allied ships in WWI. He was born in what is today the Croatian city of Zadar.

    His first wife, Agathe Whitehead, was the granddaughter and heiress of Robert Whitehead, whose torpedo factory was in nearby Rijeka, which is where Georg attended the naval academy.

    , @Anonymous
    They're nothing like England and Wales. England and Wales are part of the same country, and the Welsh have been almost completely assimilated. Hungarians and Croats are completely different nations with completely different languages, and for a century now they haven't had much to do with each other. The people of each country know little about those on the other side, and almost never think about them, but the little they do know they tend to like, and consider themselves friends. There was a scandal that somewhat threatened that in the last couple of years, but not much has changed.

    Hungarians aren't thrilled with this week's hot potato antics, but the truth is that people in Croatia are much more in line with Orban than their government on this one. Of course, the language gap means there's little idea in each country about what the mood is really like on the other side. Still, I can't see the way people see each other changing much in the long term. There are just no great passions between the two nations, one way or the other.
  124. @Jefferson
    " Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left."

    Has any prominent White female politician or White female political pundit in Europe openly opposed letting in masses of 3rd world misogynistic Muslim men into Europe?

    Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions.

    Marine Le Pen.

  125. @iSteveFan

    Leftists helped put once-radical ideas like getting weekends off inside the Overton Window.
     
    I didn't think Henry Ford was exactly a leftist.

    Henry Ford was sort of a progressive paternalist, along the lines of Michael Bloomberg. But a shorter work week was on the Socialist party platform before Ford instituted it.

  126. @MarkinLA
    You might be treated at WaPO as I think I am. I can comment but nobody else sees it. I forget the name for that type of censorship. I had suspected it because nobody ever responded to me no matter how outrageous my post (just to get a rise). They were mostly good conservative comments, I just went overboard to prove my suspicion.

    Thanks, I checked and I am still getting responses although not as much as I used to. For a while there I was defending Trump from the LEFT and several people found that quite entertaining. Others were outraged. My comments have been more conventional and boring lately there lately.

    I’m actually having trouble getting in sometimes even with incognito mode…

  127. @Anonymous
    I wonder if the eastern bloc nations now regret joining the EU?

    I’m following things pretty closely and I am not getting that feeling yet. I suppose playing up fears of the big bad Putin just salivating at the teeth to invade them keeps the Eastern Europeans in line to some extent. But their rebellion against this Islamic invasion has been very impressive.

  128. @oh its just me
    NPR also has been known (as will the NYT ) prunes comments after the initial rush and just leave 'stupid' opposing comments to make it look like anyone who opposes their article is an idiot.

    Yes, they are brutal at NPR so I gave up. My comments were fairly tame (attacking Democrats for supporting cheap labor) and they got yanked with a quickness.

    This morning the Guardian opened comments on the Refugee invasion and the comment thread was a blood bath for the Narrative. Nine out of ten massively against. Sometimes there are ironic comments that I read as against but the naive censors could mistake as pro-migrant. The funniest comment asked where all the #MigrantWelcome commentators had gone and the response was, “they’re busy installing bars over their windows”

  129. Once again, we see how the internet has changed everything. Prior to it, we were spoon-fed “facts” and had no alternative to the narrative which was handed down. The death and restriction of comments sections is a testament to this new reality. We have a narrow window of opportunity to restore sanity before they find effective solutions to remedy the problem.

    See: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/21/tech/web/online-comment-sections/

    It looks as though they are planning to bind comments with a social-media profile (real id) probably because of the pressure of conformity and the fear of ostracism. If they succeed, then we’re done and the internet will become as tv is now.

  130. The New York Times editorial “Europe Should See Refugees as a Boon, Not a Burden

    Boone: “I found my thrill on Blueberry Hill…”

    Burdon: “We gotta get out of this place, if it’s the last thing we ever do!”

  131. Leftist conservative [AKA "radical_centrist"] says: • Website
    @Ed
    Leftist Conservative above makes a point worth repeating.

    The doomer blogger Gail Tverberg, who was and maybe still is an actuary, calculated that half of GDP growth is simply population growth. The elites in Europe and the US are running a sort of ponzi scheme where assets are valued on the basis of "growth" in the future. But the growth requires an ever increasing population. If the native population reduces their family size, as has been happening in both the US and Europe (and which historically does happen over time as places become more crowded and the cost of living goes up), then more people will have to be imported. Its really that simple. A big problem for the European elites is that the nearby developing countries with exploding populations are in the Muslim Near East and sub-Sahara Africa, the US elites at least get to bring in Indians from the Andes and Central America.

    The only two countries that I'm aware of where the government has a policy of getting the population down to a more sustainable figure are China and Japan. I wonder if this is an East Asian thing. The Indian government also tried in the 1970s and failed. In Japan low population growth/ population decline has translated directly into really low GDP growth numbers. They will have to go throw several generations who accomplish nothing much, not having the opportunities that come when the economy is growing, but at the end of the century will have a less crowded and less import dependent country that is still culturally Japanese. And people have noted that the "silent depression" in Japan hasn't really reduced living standards, because with a smaller population there is more go to around per capita, but it probably has limited the numbers of Japanese billionaires.

    The elites in Europe and the US are running a sort of ponzi scheme where assets are valued on the basis of “growth” in the future. But the growth requires an ever increasing population. If the native population reduces their family size, as has been happening in both the US and Europe (and which historically does happen over time as places become more crowded and the cost of living goes up), then more people will have to be imported.

    Right. The pro-immigrant propaganda from the corporate media is part of the drive to prop up the economic system in the West by pushing up the value of asset prices. That is one reason the media hates trump–if he were to get into power and deport a bunch of illegals, that would lower real estate prices in america. Less illegals here in america, more apartment vacancies, and so on down the chain. Some prospective illegals would not go to america at all, and that would lower growth, lower asset prices more etc.

    The whole thing really is a ponzi scheme based at least in part on immigration.

    It needs to crash. And stay crashed.

    This “growth” is more like a cancer.

    • Replies: @Bleuteaux
    This is true. The entire real estate and home construction industries are addicted to this, on the high and low ends. The model here in the Midwest is that as the oldest neighborhoods turn to shit, gradually newer and newer ones become more crowded, become problematic, and new subdivisions 10-30 miles out of town develop. Rinse & repeat. If the left wants to actually fight sprawl, it should a) stop immigration immediately, b) shut down the BLM crowd.
  132. No one would expect commenters at Britain’s right-of centre Telegraph (now owned by two brothers who would make plausible Bond villains) to agree with mass muslim immigration to Europe. But the days of reflex ‘send in the bombers’ reaction’s also a thing of the past. Charles Krauthammer gets a bashing in the comments here (sort by ‘Best’ – it’s that dreadful Disqus)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11873813/In-Syria-Vladimir-Putin-is-the-arsonist-playing-fireman.html

  133. @Harry Baldwin
    From one of the top comments:
    Do [Times editorial writers] care that these sorts of open borders, naive editorials are infuriating to many liberal and left readers?

    I really wonder about this too. Does this sort of wrongheadedness cost it subscribers, or credibility on other issues with its readership ? I can kind of understand how the Times gets away with certain seemingly untenable positions, i.e., the endless "How Do We Close the Achievement Gap?" stuff, but its support for the Syrian invasion of Europe is insanely indefensible. I'd love to see a James O'Keefe type exposure of what Times editors really think as they sit around discussing these issues. How can they be this crazy? Perhaps they have to support the Syrian/Muslim invasion of Europe in order to be consistent with their support for the Mexican/CA invasion of the US. It occurred to me during the Ebola outbreak that Obama refused to block immigrants from the affected regions because he didn't want to plant the idea that it's possible to block immigrants from anywhere.

    Yes. The disconnect between the obvious reality and what the MSM peddles in this migrant invasion surely has become hard not to notice.

    I would be more confident that the MSM will pay a price in terms of readers/viewers if there were more alternatives for daily news coverage offering the same breadth; the newspaper of record type of advantage has yet to disappear. Personally I use the MSM for news bulletins but often look for explication elsewhere.

    It would have been nice if so many of the once feisty regional and city papers of the Anglo-sphere had not been turned into free sheets and the like. My impression is that liberal goodthink runs increasingly thin the further east one goes in Europe and more or less evaporates outside it.

  134. @Das
    "Or do all of the White European females think Syrian Muslim men are so sexy that they get wet and salivate at the mere thought of them coming into Europe by the tens of millions."

    You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool.

    There's definitely coalitions to be built between the anti-immigrant right and sections of the left.

    Steve likes to complain about Democrats and their divisive KKKrazy-Glue holding their coalition together, but the right is pointlessly divisive in yammering about the "Food Stamp President" and gay marriage, which makes it hard to build a broader anti-immigration coalition.

    “You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe”

    I don’t know. Without going all Heartiste, women en masse seem to like to be on whichever side’s winning (the UK Times newspaper has that same yearning) – they were famously more culturally conservative than UK men back until probably the 1980s, now they’re more liberal than men. There’s some old video of Hitler surrounded by ecstatic Frauleins, eyes shining.

    And most of the lesbian feminists (Julie Bindel excepted) are turning a blind eye to industrial-scale child rape because racism. By the time the morality police come for them there won’t be much solidarity from the sisters. Allegra Mostyn-Owen (ex Mrs Boris Johnson, Tatler cover girl in her time) is my canary in the coal mine here.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1243624/Revealed-The-Muslim-toyboy-whos-secretly-married-Boriss-ex-wife.html

  135. There’s a lot of sputtering incoherence in the NYT comments, indicating incipient rage. Interesting to note that a plurality of commenters oppose the refugees because they come from misogynistic and homophobic cultures, that might be a way to gain allies on the left. Also a number stress the anti-Semitism of the refugees, another way to gain allies.

    Yeah but now you’re losing me.

    And do you imagine that people named Nguyen are going to last in a sea of blacks, mexicans, and arabs?

    His name seems to be a silly pun (say it out loud).

    It doesn’t matter if it makes things worse for people – it makes things better for them.

    “Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.”

  136. @Anonymous
    For hundreds of years, Hungary and Croatia were the same nation - this explains the apparent absurdity of the 'Hungarian navy'.
    So relations between the two nations are like the relations between England and Wales.

    “For hundreds of years, Hungary and Croatia were the same nation – this explains the apparent absurdity of the ‘Hungarian navy’.”

    Captain Georg von Trapp, of “Sound of Music” fame, was one of those absurd Austro-Hungarian naval officers, and sank 13 Allied ships in WWI. He was born in what is today the Croatian city of Zadar.

    His first wife, Agathe Whitehead, was the granddaughter and heiress of Robert Whitehead, whose torpedo factory was in nearby Rijeka, which is where Georg attended the naval academy.

  137. @Curle

    Italian and Jewish waves to the US, where xonophobic comments about them were common . . . So NYT extrapolates and determines that all will be OK in the end.
     
    Was it, all OK in the end? Sure, the wave of Italian crime gangs has waned but I'm not sure we've gotten past the influence of the Eastern European leftists who came to this country. Alternate histories are hard to assemble, but realistic assessments of past immigration decisions never seem to occur. Plus, the introduction of Africans to these shores, though involuntary, should be used to counter this myth that all peoples can assimilate.

    Letting in masses of Eastern European leftists may prove to be the downfall of the USA.

    It’s been an absolute disaster.

    • Replies: @Irish Savant
    "Eastern European leftists"

    Mmmm......isn't there a word for them? (Scratchin' ma haid...)
  138. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    For hundreds of years, Hungary and Croatia were the same nation - this explains the apparent absurdity of the 'Hungarian navy'.
    So relations between the two nations are like the relations between England and Wales.

    They’re nothing like England and Wales. England and Wales are part of the same country, and the Welsh have been almost completely assimilated. Hungarians and Croats are completely different nations with completely different languages, and for a century now they haven’t had much to do with each other. The people of each country know little about those on the other side, and almost never think about them, but the little they do know they tend to like, and consider themselves friends. There was a scandal that somewhat threatened that in the last couple of years, but not much has changed.

    Hungarians aren’t thrilled with this week’s hot potato antics, but the truth is that people in Croatia are much more in line with Orban than their government on this one. Of course, the language gap means there’s little idea in each country about what the mood is really like on the other side. Still, I can’t see the way people see each other changing much in the long term. There are just no great passions between the two nations, one way or the other.

  139. @Reg Cæsar

    It was pretty clever of globalist capitalists to divert leftism from pro-labor activism to pro-immigrant/LGBTQ/minority etc. activism.
     
    Leftism has never been about anything other than power. They don't need to be "diverted". They have snouts like dogs', and olfactories to match.

    “Leftism has never been about anything other than power.””

    This is a silly kind of statement that leads to racial self-loathing (in the case of libertarians) or blaming leftism on Jews (in the case of white nationalists). Modern leftism is an outgrowth of western individualism and hunter gatherer naivety, which more ethnocentric and collectivist races like East Asians are less prone to.

    Many otherwise good white people are leftists. They believe in a number of deluded ideas in part because their brains are geared to analysis issues in terms of emotion rather than reason. Why do you think so many single women and most artists and actors are left-liberals? because they are all nasty and selfish?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Why do you think so many single women and most artists and actors are left-liberals? because they are all nasty and selfish?
     
    I wasn't talking about the rank-and-file.
  140. @Priss Factor
    "You would think that lesbian feminists, at least, would see the problem of letting in a bunch of homophobic, backwards religious Muslims into Europe, even if straight feminists like the idea of a bunch of tanned, exotic young dudes entering the dating pool."

    Cut out your PC tomfoolery. There is no such thing called 'homophobia', and Islamic values are better than feminism.
    Not that I like Islam or agree with Muslim nuttery, but feminism is even nuttier.

    At least Islam as a culture ensures the survival of a people. Feminism leads to racial and national suicide. Leaving aside immigrants, if the West had to adopt Islam or feminims, it should go with Islam. Islam is nutty, but feminism is a death cult. Chechens as Muslims are kinda nutty, but they are a hardy people.

    Feminism's contradiction is self-defeating but also brings down mankind.
    Feminism stresses collective identity of womanhood and individual identity of narcissism.
    But the core identity of a woman or a man should be family and then ethnos.
    Collective identity of Sisterhood is ridiculous since women cannot produce life among themselves. Also, while women can be friends with one another, they really wanna fall in love with a man. Same goes for men. Men can be buddies with one another, but true love is with a woman. And man and woman produce a kid. So, the core unit is the family.
    But people also need a culture and history, and every people have their own heritage, identity, and narrative. So, the creation of a family is seen as a being part of the larger family of race, nation, and culture. A true woman has a kid because she values her race and sees the kid as a another member of the race who will carry the torch of her people. (Islam at least ensures that even though its rules on womanhood is too strict.)

    But a feminist is cut off from thoughts of race, culture, and history. Because she has no sense of race, she only thinks about herself, or me, me, me. So, the main priority is money and personal power. And the thought of having a kid makes her feel powerless since she only feels her personal freedom has been constrained. If she thought racially, she would feel powerful through her children as she would see herself as creator of future white folks to carry on with the torch of identity. But since she rejects white identity and interest, she sees having a kid as a burden.
    Or, she might have a kid simply to serve her vanity of being a mother and fulfilling her personal happiness. It's no wonder that such women often adopt African babies. It's like buying a baby doll to play the role of mother. She sees the hubby and kiddie as serving her need for self-fulfillment than seeing herself as serving the greater mission of preserving her own race. Now, self-fulfillment is a part of life, but since our lives our short, we need a bigger vision of our place in the grander scheme of things.

    Feminism's collective identity makes no sense since sisterhood is not natural. The idea that a Turkish woman should feel closer to African women and Israeli women than with her Turkish national male kin is ridiculous. That a wife should identify more with next door wife than with her own husband and sons is ridiculous. Feminist collective identity is a social construct. Sure, women become friends and can have fun together and can discuss things they wouldn't with men, BUT the core identity of women and men must be the family cuz it is the epicenter of love and life.

    As for an identity of individual narcissism, it's shallow cuz it's premised on the notion that oneself if the center of the universe than a link in the continuum of life and history. What is the difference between human and beask? A bear or tiger has no sense of history or culture. It only lives for its pleasure and food and self-fulfillment.
    In contrast, humans have a sense of history, heritage, culture, & future, and he or she shapes his/her life in accordance to this understanding. But maybe this understanding no longer exists cuz we are acculturated not by family, community, and culture but by the opiate of pop culture that makes us gaze nonstop at vapid celebrities and because we are indoctrinated by PC that says history teaches us nothing but 'white guilt' and how it is so important that we worship homos.

    “Cut out your PC tomfoolery. There is no such thing called ‘homophobia’, and Islamic values are better than feminism.”

    Islamic values = 3rd world values. That is why the vast majority of Muslim countries are poverty stricken 3rd world toilets. The only reason there is wealth in the Gulf Arab states is because of oil. If it wasn’t for oil, countries like Kuwait and Qatar would still be in the stone age in terms of standards of living.

    ” if the West had to adopt Islam or feminims, it should go with Islam. Islam is nutty, but feminism is a death cult. ”

    Islam is the mother of all death cults in terms of murdering people who are religiously different from them. The Boston bombing, 9/11, the Madrid bombing, the Paris mass shooting, the Madrid bombing, the Armenian genocide, etc.

    Islam is responsible for way more deaths worldwide than Feminism ever will, by a huge landslide. Islam is such an extremely violent cult that I am surprised a Black man did not invent that religion.

    I can see why such an extremely violent religion like Islam attracts so many Black male prison inmates to want to convert.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    "Islam is responsible for way more deaths worldwide than Feminism ever will, by a huge landslide."

    Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales
  141. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    “Islam is the mother of all death cults in terms of murdering people who are religiously different from them.”

    Islam is a death cult that kills the enemy.

    Feminism is a death cult that kills the self and family. Feminists may not kill with bombs and guns but it makes white women not produce life. Feminism is sexual betrayal of ho’s against their own men.

    Which is worse?

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Islam is a death cult that kills the enemy."

    Yeah skiapolemistis unless you yourself are Muslim, than Islam also sees you as the enemy. Why would they make an exception for an Infidel like you?

    "Feminism is a death cult that kills the self and family. Feminists may not kill with bombs and guns but it makes white women not produce life. Feminism is sexual betrayal of ho’s against their own men.

    Which is worse?"

    Islam is worse. You sound extremely cuck beta defending a group that has an extreme hatred of you for being a Westerner and would not hesitate to murder you.

    Just because a lot of White women are not producing children, it does not make it okay to flood White Western nations with hostile anti-Western 3rd world Muslims.

    A lot of Japanese women are also not producing children either, but you don't see Japan opening up it's border to let in the Muslim world.

  142. Welsh people speaking English (apparently).

    (note the proportion of light skin + black hair)

    (partially hidden by lighter streaks on some of the women)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Welsh is a nice language. It's a pity a mere 10% in Wales are native speakers, and the number of speakers is falling.
    , @random observer
    I didn't heard a word of English- they were all speaking Welsh [Cymraeg].

    I must admit, I was impressed by the black man speaking Welsh- obviously a relatively recent immigrant somewhere in his family, if not himself. That's some serious commitment to assimilate to a host culture.

    Some of those women seemed to have a bit of a common accent- the equivalent of a really thick drawl, a Glasgow Scottish accent, or Cockney. Not ideal. But still pleasant to hear. A young woman speaking Welsh with a really refined accent is the most pleasant vocal sound in the world, regardless of what she is saying. At least if you don't speak and just listen to the trills.
  143. @Leftist conservative

    The elites in Europe and the US are running a sort of ponzi scheme where assets are valued on the basis of “growth” in the future. But the growth requires an ever increasing population. If the native population reduces their family size, as has been happening in both the US and Europe (and which historically does happen over time as places become more crowded and the cost of living goes up), then more people will have to be imported.
     
    Right. The pro-immigrant propaganda from the corporate media is part of the drive to prop up the economic system in the West by pushing up the value of asset prices. That is one reason the media hates trump--if he were to get into power and deport a bunch of illegals, that would lower real estate prices in america. Less illegals here in america, more apartment vacancies, and so on down the chain. Some prospective illegals would not go to america at all, and that would lower growth, lower asset prices more etc.

    The whole thing really is a ponzi scheme based at least in part on immigration.

    It needs to crash. And stay crashed.


    This "growth" is more like a cancer.

    This is true. The entire real estate and home construction industries are addicted to this, on the high and low ends. The model here in the Midwest is that as the oldest neighborhoods turn to shit, gradually newer and newer ones become more crowded, become problematic, and new subdivisions 10-30 miles out of town develop. Rinse & repeat. If the left wants to actually fight sprawl, it should a) stop immigration immediately, b) shut down the BLM crowd.

  144. @Harry Baldwin
    From one of the top comments:
    Do [Times editorial writers] care that these sorts of open borders, naive editorials are infuriating to many liberal and left readers?

    I really wonder about this too. Does this sort of wrongheadedness cost it subscribers, or credibility on other issues with its readership ? I can kind of understand how the Times gets away with certain seemingly untenable positions, i.e., the endless "How Do We Close the Achievement Gap?" stuff, but its support for the Syrian invasion of Europe is insanely indefensible. I'd love to see a James O'Keefe type exposure of what Times editors really think as they sit around discussing these issues. How can they be this crazy? Perhaps they have to support the Syrian/Muslim invasion of Europe in order to be consistent with their support for the Mexican/CA invasion of the US. It occurred to me during the Ebola outbreak that Obama refused to block immigrants from the affected regions because he didn't want to plant the idea that it's possible to block immigrants from anywhere.

    well, the soccer moms of yore are now thinkin’ Trump is our guy.

  145. @rod1963
    Those warning of the incompatibility of Islam and the West have been repeatedly demonized by the Left and GOP elites since day one.

    Why do you think we didn't hit Saudi Arabia after 9/11 when we found out that the bulk of the attackers were funded by them as well as the radical brand of Islam they were following?

    Our elites aren't interested. Neither is the Left that went out of it's way to protect and promote Islam. In England, criticism of Islam is punishable by prison time thanks to the Left.

    Our elites are more interested in globalization and confronting Islam means a end to globalization. Can't have that.

    The problem with the Left is that is a good portion of it is virulently anti-white and any criticism of the brown skinned 3rd worlders is considered the most horrible act imaginable. Muslims are saints in their view.

    Even when one of their own dares they are attacked. Take Bruce Bawer, a gay in Europe who has written the lethal threat Islam poses to Gays. He ended up ostracized, the Gays didn't want to hear it.

    Feminists are no better, most don't want to hear the warnings made by female Muslim apostates in regards to the treatment of women by Muslims. Why? Because it attacks the dogma that white males are the primary source of female oppression in the world.

    For the time being, until the Left and the elites gets off their suicide binge or they are removed from power, it will be the white nationalists that will have to try and protect Europe from Islam and protect themselves from attacks from the Left and elites.

    with all the apocalyptic things going on, I find it embarrassing, no offensive ( I am a graduate of an elite New England U, and an EU citizen) that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not sought out with her well-documented expertise and wisdom to expound on this quixotic refugee implosion in Europe!!!

  146. @Mr. Anon
    "I have had some nasty flame wars online with extreme liberals, the type of liberal that believes the stereotype that conservatives should only care about money, when I reject this, they usually attack me by saying that I am a loser with no money and they even go as far as calling me a socialist or communist. These kind of attacks for me are proof is that they are actually the ones that only care about money, and that they really have nothing more than that they hold in value."

    That is the irony in what many liberals believe: they imagine conservatives to be greedy and heartless, and yet many conservatives have religious motivations which are anything but. They may be naive and foolish, but they are not greedy and heartless. It is liberals, being essentially materialists, who have the more cold and cynical political views and who are more likely motivated by gain. They tend to project their own greediness on to others. Some conservatives do this to, mind you. People who are quick to attribute other peoples actions to greed tend to be greedy and grasping (or at least really cheap) themselves.

    Bravo. How did you misunderestimate me?

  147. @unpc downunder
    "Leftism has never been about anything other than power.""

    This is a silly kind of statement that leads to racial self-loathing (in the case of libertarians) or blaming leftism on Jews (in the case of white nationalists). Modern leftism is an outgrowth of western individualism and hunter gatherer naivety, which more ethnocentric and collectivist races like East Asians are less prone to.

    Many otherwise good white people are leftists. They believe in a number of deluded ideas in part because their brains are geared to analysis issues in terms of emotion rather than reason. Why do you think so many single women and most artists and actors are left-liberals? because they are all nasty and selfish?

    Why do you think so many single women and most artists and actors are left-liberals? because they are all nasty and selfish?

    I wasn’t talking about the rank-and-file.

  148. @Priss Factor
    "Islam is the mother of all death cults in terms of murdering people who are religiously different from them."

    Islam is a death cult that kills the enemy.

    Feminism is a death cult that kills the self and family. Feminists may not kill with bombs and guns but it makes white women not produce life. Feminism is sexual betrayal of ho's against their own men.

    Which is worse?

    “Islam is a death cult that kills the enemy.”

    Yeah skiapolemistis unless you yourself are Muslim, than Islam also sees you as the enemy. Why would they make an exception for an Infidel like you?

    “Feminism is a death cult that kills the self and family. Feminists may not kill with bombs and guns but it makes white women not produce life. Feminism is sexual betrayal of ho’s against their own men.

    Which is worse?”

    Islam is worse. You sound extremely cuck beta defending a group that has an extreme hatred of you for being a Westerner and would not hesitate to murder you.

    Just because a lot of White women are not producing children, it does not make it okay to flood White Western nations with hostile anti-Western 3rd world Muslims.

    A lot of Japanese women are also not producing children either, but you don’t see Japan opening up it’s border to let in the Muslim world.

  149. @Jefferson
    "Cut out your PC tomfoolery. There is no such thing called ‘homophobia’, and Islamic values are better than feminism."

    Islamic values = 3rd world values. That is why the vast majority of Muslim countries are poverty stricken 3rd world toilets. The only reason there is wealth in the Gulf Arab states is because of oil. If it wasn't for oil, countries like Kuwait and Qatar would still be in the stone age in terms of standards of living.

    " if the West had to adopt Islam or feminims, it should go with Islam. Islam is nutty, but feminism is a death cult. "

    Islam is the mother of all death cults in terms of murdering people who are religiously different from them. The Boston bombing, 9/11, the Madrid bombing, the Paris mass shooting, the Madrid bombing, the Armenian genocide, etc.

    Islam is responsible for way more deaths worldwide than Feminism ever will, by a huge landslide. Islam is such an extremely violent cult that I am surprised a Black man did not invent that religion.

    I can see why such an extremely violent religion like Islam attracts so many Black male prison inmates to want to convert.

    “Islam is responsible for way more deaths worldwide than Feminism ever will, by a huge landslide.”

    Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales

    • Replies: @HA
    "Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales"

    Islam does not have much of a problem with abortions in the earlier months:

    In Islam, the fetus is believed to become a living soul after four months of gestation
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_abortion
    , @Jefferson
    "Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales"

    And White Ethnic Brits will eventually die off completely if they end up being demographically overwhelmed by Muslims. It will make 6 million abortions look like a drop in the bucket in comparison.
  150. @anon
    Welsh people speaking English (apparently).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCjLWzRUZik


    (note the proportion of light skin + black hair)

    (partially hidden by lighter streaks on some of the women)

    Welsh is a nice language. It’s a pity a mere 10% in Wales are native speakers, and the number of speakers is falling.

  151. @Anonymous Nephew
    "Islam is responsible for way more deaths worldwide than Feminism ever will, by a huge landslide."

    Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales

    “Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales”

    Islam does not have much of a problem with abortions in the earlier months:

    In Islam, the fetus is believed to become a living soul after four months of gestation

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_abortion

  152. It’s notable that females outnumber males in the Muslim world. In India and China the reverse is true.

  153. @Anonymous
    Letting in masses of Eastern European leftists may prove to be the downfall of the USA.

    It's been an absolute disaster.

    “Eastern European leftists”

    Mmmm……isn’t there a word for them? (Scratchin’ ma haid…)

  154. @Anonymous Nephew
    "Islam is responsible for way more deaths worldwide than Feminism ever will, by a huge landslide."

    Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales

    “Is that true? More than 6 million abortions in England and Wales”

    And White Ethnic Brits will eventually die off completely if they end up being demographically overwhelmed by Muslims. It will make 6 million abortions look like a drop in the bucket in comparison.

  155. @anonymous
    Sometimes I make the mistake of looking at New Scientist, an Economist-style Fabian "let's conquer the world via integration and open borders" journal disguised as a popular science magazine.

    The 9-Sept-2015 issue has an editorial and an article that uses the same talking points and claims as the NYT article. The message is that ignorant racist people are against mass immigration and once the "facts" are really understood everyone will see how great immigration and the immigrants are. There's something truly breathtaking about the combination of ignorance and arrogance displayed by New Scientist here.

    "Europe’s refugees: Making a drama out of a crisis: Our response to the Syrian refugee crisis is driven by fiction, not facts. Only evidence-based policies have any hope of working", New Scientist, 9-Sept-2015 (in print on 12-Sept-2015):


    "There’s no shortage of misinformation when talking about migration...

    ...efforts have ...been complicated in many countries by anti-immigration parties spreading misinformation... When politics takes precedence over facts, tragedies tend to happen.

    ...We can, and must, do better. The key word is “misinformation”. Complex issues require nations to respond in an informed and sophisticated way, bringing all the available evidence to bear, acting on it – and explaining it to reluctant electorates if needed. By these criteria, Europe has failed miserably

    ...labour migration into Western Europe has been falling steadily since 2007.

    ...since 2000, immigrants in the UK paid more into government coffers than they took out in benefits... even managed this during a time of government deficits, when by definition the native majority was a net drain on public resources.

    ...knee-jerk assumptions about human migration often crumble under proper scrutiny.

    ...like it or not, the present crisis is just the start.

    ...large-scale migration will be a defining issues of this century, driven by population growth, political instability and climate change, and enabled by increased global connectivity, both physical and digital. We cannot stop it by building fences or turning away boats. So we had better get a handle on it now."

     

    Notice the awesome 'if governments overspend, the native population is a drain, so we must have immigration'. Great jumble of words that could be mistaken for an argument! And of course the classic argument by inevitability. And climate! proves its all the fault of the West.


    "Why welcoming more refugees makes economic sense for Europe: Europe's leaders are under pressure to accept 130,000 more refugees, mostly from Syria. It's not just the right thing to do, it makes economic sense", Special report, New Scientist, 9 September 2015:


    "...fear that letting in some refugees will encourage more, and that migrants will be an economic burden. Yet the evidence shows both beliefs are false. ...

    ...“No existing sound research substantiates the political claim that giving people asylum in Europe stimulates more flow,” says Alexander Betts, head of the Refugee Studies Centre at the University of Oxford. “Nearly all refugees want to go home. They don’t sit in refugee camps calculating where they can get the best benefits.”...

    “There is no evidence of a pull factor,” agrees Ian Goldin, head of the Oxford Martin School on global challenges. ...Desperate people don’t make that calculation.”

    ...Germany had 200,000 more deaths than births in 2012, more than compensated by 391,000 immigrants. ...

    ...migrants needn’t be a burden. On 4 September the World Bank, the UN’s International Labour Organization and the OECD club of rich countries issued a report concluding that “in most countries migrants pay more in taxes and social contributions than they receive.”

    ...That is partly because most migrants are young and need relatively little in the way of benefits.

    ...Carlos Vargas-Silva of the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford reported this year that letting in 260,000 immigrants a year could halve the UK’s public debt 50 years from now. ...

    ...“There can be local negative effects on jobs, but that can be managed,” says Betts. For example minimum wages can stop immigrants undercutting locals.

    ...Some studies show migrants create jobs for locals, says Mathias Czaika of the International Migration Institute at the University of Oxford. `...Mostly the impact on wages or jobs is neutral or positive.'

    ...So why do doors stay shut...? ...fear of the cultural impact of foreigners. ...

    ...Europe will have to learn how to deal with cultural differences, and get its asylum rules in order, because more refugees are coming.

    ... ``...other countries with large numbers of refugees, like Kenya, need more help, or the entire refugee regime will collapse.''

    ...Climate triggered the crisis in Syria, so the world must brace itself for more climate refugees in the years to come.

     

    Climate refugees. I think I get it!

    You’re right. That was awful. Dishonesty laced with a sly wink.

  156. @anon
    Welsh people speaking English (apparently).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCjLWzRUZik


    (note the proportion of light skin + black hair)

    (partially hidden by lighter streaks on some of the women)

    I didn’t heard a word of English- they were all speaking Welsh [Cymraeg].

    I must admit, I was impressed by the black man speaking Welsh- obviously a relatively recent immigrant somewhere in his family, if not himself. That’s some serious commitment to assimilate to a host culture.

    Some of those women seemed to have a bit of a common accent- the equivalent of a really thick drawl, a Glasgow Scottish accent, or Cockney. Not ideal. But still pleasant to hear. A young woman speaking Welsh with a really refined accent is the most pleasant vocal sound in the world, regardless of what she is saying. At least if you don’t speak and just listen to the trills.

  157. @Anonymous
    Slim is a Lebanese.

    Basically it is his people - Syria and Lebanon were one and the same prior to 1918, who are the 'migrants'.
    I'm most surprised that he isn't doing everything possible to get the USA to take in vast numbers of Syrians, of indeed isn't pressing Mexico.

    Or, perhaps Carlos Slim is a christian, and rather leave Muslim countrymen to their fate.

    Carlos Slim is Christian, so the Syrians Muslims are not his people.

  158. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor
    We're building the fence on the Croatian border, too. I'm not sure what would happen if then the migrants started coming through Romania, but we also started to build a fence there, too. I suppose once the fence is ready, no more buses will be coming.

    The migrants may try to climb the fences as people have done in Ceuta and Melilla (Spanish enclaves on the North African coast). Hungary needs to make the fences formidable obstacles. Perhaps multiple layers of fencing, fencing made of razor wire, or electrification of the fences would work. It also needs to patrol the fenced areas because no doubt some migrants will try to tunnel under the fence.

  159. […] & now the society is full of conflict & increasing crime & stress.” —carla van rijk, NY Times commentator quoted by […]

  160. […] than yet another step towards white genocide. For these elites, more migrants simply provides more reason for optimism on everyone’s part. Whole paragraphs of Thiel’s remarks on the pernicious economic […]

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