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NYT: "Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago"
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From the New York Times:

Even With Affirmative Action, Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago
By JEREMY ASHKENAS, HAEYOUN PARK and ADAM PEARCE AUG. 24, 2017

Even after decades of affirmative action, black and Hispanic students are more underrepresented at the nation’s top colleges and universities than they were 35 years ago, according to a New York Times analysis.

- It’s almost as if 45 to 50 years of affirmative action haven’t succeeded in making blacks and Hispanics smarter …

Here’s the 1996-2011 trends in SAT Math scores from Unsilenced Science:

Not much is happening other than Asians are scoring higher.

Similarly, here’s Unsilenced Science’s graph of trends on the composite SAT and ACT college admission test scores:

Asians are pulling away from pack, while blacks are lagging. (The number of blacks taking these tests has been going up, so that performance isn’t all that bad.)

- And it’s almost as if the massive increase in Asian-American and foreign Asian enrollment in colleges had to hurt other groups’ numbers due to simple arithmetic.

The share of black freshmen at elite schools is virtually unchanged since 1980.

When, by the way, affirmative action was roaring strong. You may recall the famous Bakke lawsuit over racial quotas at the University of California reached the U.S. Supreme Court in 1978, when Judge Powell’s one-man decision somehow wound up being decisive. Powell’s baby slicing brilliance: racial quotas are illegal if you call then “quotas” but not if you call them “goals.”

Part of what the NYT is doing is playing off their readers’ lack of historical sense. Subscribers are constantly told that America was a racist hell-hole until approximately the day before yesterday, so “1980″ sounds like the Dark Ages to them. In reality of course, it was well past the social revolution of the 1960s, with affirmative action going full blast.

Black students are just 6 percent of freshmen but 15 percent of college-age Americans, as the chart below shows.

Screenshot 2017-08-24 17.47.08

The NYT won’t tell us what the actual numbers were in 1980 (which turns out to be a bigger problem below with the Hispanic graph), but it looks like 1980 numbers were something like blacks being 13% of the college-age population and 6% of elite college freshmen.

It would be interesting to see what % blacks made up in the 90th percentile or higher on the SAT and ACT test in 1980 versus 2015. My guess would be it was a small percentage in 1980 and an even smaller percentage in 2015 due to the flood of high scoring Asians.

Here’s a recent Brookings Institution graph:

Screenshot 2017-08-24 17.56.56

Blacks make up only 2% of those scoring on the math SAT 650 to 700, 2% of 700 to 750, and 2% of 750 to 800. In contrast Asians make up 27% of 650 to 700, 39% of 700 to 750, and 60% of 750 to 800.

A 650 on math is a good score, but not amazing: it’s at the 86th percentile of those who take the SAT and the 90th percentile of a nationally representative sample (including those who missed out on taking the SAT because they were in Juvy Hall). So blacks make up 6% of elite college freshmen but only 2% among those scoring at the 86th percentile or higher on the Math SAT. Of course, blacks don’t benefit from White Privilege.

Here’s the Brookings article on how test score gaps aren’t closing much.

I don’t know what this graph would have looked like in 1980, but the immense Asian numbers at the high end wouldn’t have been so big, thus increasing the other groups’ representation proportionately.

More Hispanics are attending elite schools, but the increase has not kept up with the huge growth of young Hispanics in the United States, so the gap between students and the college-age population has widened.

Screenshot 2017-08-24 17.52.38

Now here’s where the NYT’s methodology becomes intentionally misleading. They won’t tell us what the actual numbers were in 1980, but it looks like back then Hispanics were about 7% of the population and 4% of the elite freshmen, compared to 22% and 13% in 2015. Those proportions are roughly the same, so not much has really happened. For example 4/7 = 0.57 and 13/22 = 0.59, suggesting a slight increase in favor of Hispanics over the years. But of course these are guesstimates from eyeballing the graph.

But the NYT can claim that The Gap has gotten … three … times … larger!

The Times analysis includes 100 schools ranging from public flagship universities to the Ivy League. For both blacks and Hispanics, the trend extends back to at least 1980, the earliest year that fall enrollment data was available from the National Center for Education Statistics.

Blacks and Hispanics have gained ground at less selective colleges and universities but not at the highly selective institutions, said Terry Hartle, a senior vice president at the American Council on Education, which represents more than 1,700 colleges and universities.

The 1985 book Choosing Elites by social scientist Robert Klitgaard, who went on to be president of Claremont McKenna college, reveals much about Harvard’s 1970s internal studies of just how much affirmative action Harvard could afford. This turned out to be some, but not as much as they had hoped when they got started with quotas in the late 1960s. In particular, inner city black males were not a good bet.

Here’s the NYT’s graph of the racial trends at the alpha dog of academia, Harvard:

Screenshot 2017-08-24 19.15.47

Although this is just speculation, it sure looks like Harvard decided during the 1990s that allowing the white percentage to continue to fall sharply, as it had in the 1980s, would eventually prove Bad for the Brand.

- One other thing that’s going on is that white parents and students have tended to become much more ambitious and/or fatalistic about attending elite national private colleges since I was in high school. For example, it was standard for my friends from our Catholic school to attend cheap U. of California campuses, but the NYT graphs show whites barely showing up at many UC colleges anymore. For example, here is UC Irvine in Orange County where whites make up only 15% of the freshmen:

Screenshot 2017-08-24 18.16.27

Today it seems as if a huge fraction of white parents are just convinced that of course they will have to spend an extra $125k to send their kids to a private college in another state instead of to a public college that they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars their whole lives. That’s what you have to do if you are white.

By the way, if you are wondering why the expensive Claremont colleges in Southern California are having so many hissy fits, as frequently reported here and more recently reported in the NYT (“More Diversity Means More Demands,” here’s a graph of Claremont’s STEM college Harvey Mudd’s trajectory:

Screenshot 2017-08-24 20.38.02

Harvey Mudd recently got woke and decided to let in lots of Non-Asian Minorities and girls, because obviously things like test scores must be biased, with the results that you or I would expect:

An elite California college canceled 2 days of classes amid tension over workload and racial issues on campus
Inside Higher Ed

 
    []
  1. Tiny Duck says:

    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn’t that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I’m sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    Read More
    • Troll: IHTG, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @anonHUN
    What are those impediments? Isn't their own community/culture are one of those?
    , @Rich
    Yes, IQ is a very steep hill to overcome. Less intelligent people, through hard work and perseverance, can be very successful, but that's the thing, it takes hard work. And no, Whites know there is no "level playing field" blacks and other minorities get 100's of points added to their test scores in order for them to take up space a more qualified applicant should fill.
    You must not be from the US, a black kid who showers and wears a suit will be snatched up by any company or school that can get their hands on him, just to fill a quota. They will bend over backwards trying to help him survive and prosper, and promote him far above his abilities.
    , @Frederick John
    Ever thought of becoming a fiction writer??
    , @MarkinLA
    That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I’m sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    Yes, they are deliberate. You have to read at at least the 10th grade level to even function in college. You have to write at the 9th grade level or the work becomes too difficult. You have to have at least an 11th grade knowledge of math if you intend to be in a STEM field. These white imposed impediments are too much for the average POC.
    , @Nick Granite
    There is a direct contradiction in bitching about opportunity and very deliberately raising an EBT Army of monumental proportions during the Obama years. We won't go into the the psychology of dependence that goes with it. I hate to break this to you but 90% of everybody faces an uphill climb in being successful, listening to progressives tell you you're f__ked from the get go "because whitey" and we're here to help you is a loser's recipe that will never work. The progressives of course are banking on that.
    , @Fred Not Reed
    Blacks have low IQ's. Jews say Black IQ is equal because then they can use Blacks to genocidally displace Whites. Which they've been doing.

    It's all about displacing Whites.

    How about the elephant in the room: Massively rigged over-representation of non-meritorious Jews at the elite schools at the expense of White enrollment.

    http://whitenationalism.com/ms/ms-45.htm
    , @Monkface
    You know what else is invisible? Any evidence or arguments for all of your simplified assertions.
    , @Anonymous
    Someone peed in his mother.
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  2. This was supposed to be the year that innocent youth Trayvon Martin was to graduate so supposedly some college gave his parents a posthumous degree in his name. Not sure how that diploma factors in to overall black graduation from US colleges.

    “1980″ sounds like the Dark Ages to them.”

    Anything pre-Internet will do. Back in the days of no running water, few flush toilets, and no internet. Or pre-’93, the start of Bill Clinton’s first term (first black president).

    Also, hasn’t CA’s total white population been declining because of people leaving the state? Stands to reason that fewer white CA residents = fewer white CA students in the state university system.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Schmidt
    You're not kidding about the "Dark Ages". I was watching someone live-stream a city-builder and he gave his citizens "Free Wi-fi", when the game calendar read "1994". Several people jumped into chat to claim "Wi-fi didn't exist in 1994". Actually, it did.
  3. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Underrepresented is another one of those fun liberal terms that’s intentionally vague and wide enough for them to play games with. That blacks are in low numbers at institutions of higher learning, esp. Ivy League ones, is indisputable. They use that as ‘proof’ for their assumption that it must be racism, without the slightest shred of evidence. Never mind the fact that blacks are given effectively hundreds of points of credit on SATs they never earned, never mind that schools now intentionally set out to ‘holistically’ examine students instead of basing color blind on merit, to give blacks a leg up. Never mind that increasingly scholarship and opportunity after scholarship and opportunity in academia is earmarked for minorities, esp. blacks. Never mind that study after study shows blacks spend less time studying than whites and Asians, despite white America bending over backwards to create tutoring, after school programs, etc focused solely on them. And of course, never mind the IQ gap, no, that couldn’t possibly be a source of different outcomes in academia. No, it must be evil white racism afoot.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pete22
    The "evidence" is always implied in their usually unstated but long-running assumption that blacks and whites have exactly the same brains.

    That is goes unstated, but is yet foundational to their argument, is their way of recognizing the assumption as a biological (and cultural) law; similar to how gravity is also assumed to exist.
  4. Hubbard says:

    Small nit to pick, but Klitgaard was president of Claremont Graduate University, which is not the same as Claremont McKenna, though both are part of the Claremont Consortium of Colleges.

    And though both CGU and CMC have professors affiliated with the Claremont Institute, that little think tank isn’t a part of the colleges.

    Claremonsters take that sort of thing seriously.

    Read More
  5. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    And what’s the attrition rate at the top schools for Jews and then also non-Jewish whites?

    Asian over-representation is not impacting blacks/Hispanics all that much according to this data… so whitey is taking the big hit, right?

    Also, massive Asian over-representation was apparently not enough to create an aura of prestige at UC Irvine. Even though it’s a great area as opposed to USC. Funny/Not Funny how Asians lag in prestige.

    If we continue with mass Asian immigration our top schools will have all the prestige of Asia. Which is to say not very much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marty T
    Asians are not prestigious, which is why the Ivies limit their enrollment (though they are still overrepresented).
    , @Liberal hypocrisy
    "If we continue with mass Asian immigration our top schools will have all the prestige of Asia. Which is to say not very much."

    Exactly. As Malcolm Gladwell once said, if Harvard were majority Asian, it would no longer be Harvard. It would be Berkeley. It's time to curtail immigration from China and India, limit green card issuance to these 2 countries to no more than 5% of total green cards issued each year compared to at least 25% now. And cancel the EB5 and H1b altogether, these two groups probably make up 99% of EB5 and at least 70% of all H1b visas issued.

    , @Fred Not Reed
    It's all about displacing Whites.
  6. Dr. X says:

    Even after decades of affirmative action, black and Hispanic students are more underrepresented at the nation’s top colleges and universities than they were 35 years ago, according to a New York Times analysis.

    This does not surprise me one bit.

    It is my observation that, after spending my entire adult life on college campuses, that no matter how often college administrators practically get on their knees to kiss black students (and black faculty) on the ass, there is still a dearth of blacks in higher ed because most blacks simply have no interest in, or aptitude for, academic life.

    Of course, there are exceptions — but I can count the ones I’ve personally seen on one hand and still have a couple of fingers left.

    Blacks that I see in college tend to be there to play football or basketball, and frequently quit without a degree when the season is over and/or they become academically ineligible. (Academic ineligibility is usually delayed by the coaching staff until the season is over anyway).

    That’s just they way it is, plain and simple.

    Read More
  7. The introduction of standardized testing & merit based admissions for these gatekeepers of American social mobility were a one time shock rather than permanent revolution. Even though that was a pretty good one time shake, the salad dressing has been settling and separating into it’s natural constituent elements ever since.

    The future? A crypto-ethnic-caste society like every other place that has had enough time and peace at equilibrium for things to settle into place.

    GWF Hegel and F Fukuyama perhaps dismissed feudalism prematurely.

    Read More
  8. Wilkey says:

    “Today it seems as if a huge fraction of white parents are just convinced that of course they will have to spend an extra $125k to send their kids to a private college in another state instead of to a public college that they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars their whole lives. That’s what you have to do if you are white.”

    So first white parents in many towns had to pay for grades 1-12 (on top of their taxes), now they have to pay for private colleges, as well. Well this bodes well for things.

    Read More
  9. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The elaborate AA regime is just the urban policy wonk version of Get Whitey.

    There are zero non-white countries in the world that allow this nonsense. But incoherent jackass Trump loves AA: “I love affirmative action.”

    Dear Draft Dodger POTUS: Can we get some AA in the casualties in Afghanistan? How’s the Asian, Hispanic, black representation in that category.

    Read More
    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    According to Thomas Sowell, it's actually a relatively common response to differing outcomes in non-white countries too. See "Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study" by Sowell.
  10. Yan Shen says:

    Just pointing out the obvious that the way Brookings presented the SAT tail end math data understates the extent to which Asian Americans dominate, since there are fewer Asian Americans in recent high school cohorts compared to members of other ethnic groups.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.
    , @FKA Max
    We had a discussion/debate about this a while back:

    Has anybody noticed this yet?

    Overall these test-takers were 14 percent Asian, 51 percent White, 21 percent Latino and 14 percent black.

    Would it be reasonable to assume, that there would be a higher percentage of non-Hispanic White 750-800 scores if non-Hispanic Whites were represented at their current/actual percentage of the population: 62 percent?

    Nobody seems to have factored this in or pointed this out so far – that I am aware of – that Asians are currently about 5.6 percent of the population, but 14 percent of the test-takers.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/everything-about-sat-math-racial-gaps-has-changed-since-1972/#comment-1761621

    Excerpt from your reply:

    I admit that presenting the data in terms of % of total test takers who scored above some threshold is a bit misleading, since it ignores the obvious fact that the different groups weren’t equally represented in the overall test taking pool. However, this in fact understates the degree to which Asian Americans over-performed, since obviously there were a lot more white Americans in absolute numbers.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/everything-about-sat-math-racial-gaps-has-changed-since-1972/#comment-1761666

    Excerpt from my reply to you:


    If non-Hispanic Whites were to test-prep at the same rates and with the same intensity/dedication/ambition as Asians do, there would also be many more non-Hispanic White 750-800 scores:

    Use of Test-Prep Courses and Gains, by Race and Ethnicity

    Group, % Taking Test-Prep Course, Post-Course Gain in Points on SAT
    East Asian American 30% 68.8
    Other Asian 15% 23.8
    White 10% 12.3
    Black 16% 14.9
    Hispanic 11% 24.6
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/everything-about-sat-math-racial-gaps-has-changed-since-1972/#comment-1761758
  11. Yan Shen says:
    @Yan Shen
    Just pointing out the obvious that the way Brookings presented the SAT tail end math data understates the extent to which Asian Americans dominate, since there are fewer Asian Americans in recent high school cohorts compared to members of other ethnic groups.

    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Laugh Track

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.
     
    Perhaps I've asked this before, but what's the breakdown of who are South Asians, Southeast Asians, and East Asians? Living here in the backwaters of the US, our perceptions of them get all mixed together. Our bad, no doubt.
    , @lao gu
    60% of math score above 750 are Asian which are about 6% population of USA. White about 33% score above 750. It safely guess that East Asian students are three times high achieved than the
    Jews, It is amusing.
    , @Jim
    Certainly lumping Northeast Asian, Southeast Asian and South Asian together is absurd. Like referring to a Han Chinese person in Shanghai and a Russian living in Vladivostok as both "Asian". Of course terms like "Hispanic" are absurd also. Mayan speaking Amerindians in Guatemala have little in common with the population of Barcelona.
  12. Yan Shen says:

    Now here’s where the NYT’s methodology becomes intentionally misleading. They won’t tell us what the actual numbers were in 1980, but it looks like back then Hispanics were about 7% of the population and 4% of the elite freshmen, compared to 22% and 13% in 2015. Those proportions are roughly the same, so not much has really happened. For example 4/7 = 0.57 and 13/22 = 0.59, suggesting a slight increase in favor of Hispanics over the years. But of course these are guesstimates from eyeballing the graph.

    But the NYT can claim that The Gap has gotten … three … times … larger!

    Yeah that’s just uh faulty math right there. Their entire method of taking the absolute % delta instead of the ratio means that potentially their entire article is bullshit.

    I mean with a Haeyoun Park as one of the authors, one might’ve thought that it would’ve been picked up on. And honestly I wouldn’t even give them the benefit of the doubt and describe it as intentionally misleading.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen

    The methodology used to determine higher or lower degree of representation is incorrect. The NYT compares the absolute percent deltas instead of the ratios.

    Imagine that Hispanics were say 8% of the general population in 1980 but 4% of students at elite colleges. In 2017, we see that they're 16% of the general population but 8% of students at elite colleges. The NYT would say the delta went from 8-4 = 4% to 16-8 = 8%, but in reality the ratio of 4/8 and 8/16 are both 50% and in this example Hispanics remain represented at 50% their overall population % at elite schools.

    Will the NYT publish a retraction of their potentially flawed methodology?
     

    Yo Steve. I submitted this as a comment to that article. We'll see when it gets approved and published whether the uh NYT writers pick up on it.
  13. Moses says:

    What percent of the “White” line is Jewish? Are Jews “overrepresented”?

    Asking for a friend.

    Read More
  14. Jack D says:

    Something is strange about the black right tail on the Brookings graph – 2%, 2%, 2% (and it’s mirror image the left Asian tail). The predicted outcome is that as the middle tier, the white group should have a symmetrical graph with the largest # in the middle (this is the classic Bell Curve presented slightly differently) while the high and low IQ groups dominate one tail (their bell curves are cut off on one side by floor/ceiling effects) and should taper to the other tail. It all works except the outlying tail doesn’t taper but instead flattens. What is that about?

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    I think it is an artifact of overall population changes at tails and perhaps some rounding issues. This version of the graphic (from Steve's link) looks more like you describe.

    https://i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ccf_20170201_reeves_1.png

    More discussion of the Brookings graphic from February at http://www.unz.com/isteve/brookings-race-gaps-in-sat-math-scores-are-as-big-as-ever/
  15. Stacy235l says:

    Interestingly, it looks like Asians have been starting to follow whites

    Starting to follow whites? They’ve been cheating and flooding American schools for generations now. This shows that they’re continuing to follow us. It makes it look like *they don’t want them any more after they’ve got’em. They’ll just keep following and taking from us forever. Something has to be done about this.

    I know pointing out Asian academic fraud will be upsetting to some, but in Asia cheating is the norm. The magic dirt of America doesn’t make’em stop.

    * It appears that to Asians, as to Blacks, everything seems better when white people have it. I wonder why?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen

    They’ll just keep following and taking from us forever. Something has to be done about this.
     
    Seems like the only thing that can be done, unless we want to endorse pogroms against market dominant minorities, is to reduce the delta on something like the SAT math.

    I'm also in favor of reducing immigration in general, but I suspect that's not all that you have in mind.

  16. @Peripatetic commenter
    Wait. What?

    https://files.gab.ai/image/599f76f80cd13.png

    Seems implausible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, would you believe this one?

    https://files.gab.ai/image/599f62e49537a.jpeg
    , @Lot
    More like mathematically impossible, since 43% of the Jewish population (using the Nuremberg Law Israel immigration definition) is more than 1% of the population.
    , @kihowi
    Looks like the person who made that image heard that 43% of the 1% are Jewish and got it the wrong way round.
    , @kaganovitch
    Rest assured that is not an ad by a Jewish org. That's alt-right trolling.
    , @Tradecraft46
    You produce, you get invited. Now there is more competition and some of the desired groups are an embarrassment.

    I think it is all culture and motivation. When a kid says he wants to go to college and become a....

    Then gets his gal pal preggers, he is not really interested, having no ability to defer pleasure. A slum goddess can do that to you.

    If you want to do it, it is going to hurt and you can make no mistakes, if you want to reach your goals.
  17. Yan Shen says:
    @Yan Shen

    Now here’s where the NYT’s methodology becomes intentionally misleading. They won’t tell us what the actual numbers were in 1980, but it looks like back then Hispanics were about 7% of the population and 4% of the elite freshmen, compared to 22% and 13% in 2015. Those proportions are roughly the same, so not much has really happened. For example 4/7 = 0.57 and 13/22 = 0.59, suggesting a slight increase in favor of Hispanics over the years. But of course these are guesstimates from eyeballing the graph.

    But the NYT can claim that The Gap has gotten … three … times … larger!
     

    Yeah that's just uh faulty math right there. Their entire method of taking the absolute % delta instead of the ratio means that potentially their entire article is bullshit.

    I mean with a Haeyoun Park as one of the authors, one might've thought that it would've been picked up on. And honestly I wouldn't even give them the benefit of the doubt and describe it as intentionally misleading.

    The methodology used to determine higher or lower degree of representation is incorrect. The NYT compares the absolute percent deltas instead of the ratios.

    Imagine that Hispanics were say 8% of the general population in 1980 but 4% of students at elite colleges. In 2017, we see that they’re 16% of the general population but 8% of students at elite colleges. The NYT would say the delta went from 8-4 = 4% to 16-8 = 8%, but in reality the ratio of 4/8 and 8/16 are both 50% and in this example Hispanics remain represented at 50% their overall population % at elite schools.

    Will the NYT publish a retraction of their potentially flawed methodology?

    Yo Steve. I submitted this as a comment to that article. We’ll see when it gets approved and published whether the uh NYT writers pick up on it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @academic gossip
    Yes, NYT used bad methodology. No, your method is not valid either, although better than the NYT Asian reporter's. The fraction of foreign students has increased, and it affects the numerator but not the denominator of your calculation. A simple cure for that is to divide your Hispanic (or Asian, or black) American university/population ratio by the one for white Americans, thinking of the latter as a baseline.

    By the way, isn't it interesting that the Eastasian math superhero genes you keep acclaiming happen to fail whenever it's not a question on an admissions test? It's almost as if there's a big discrepancy where ethnic self-image >>> test scores (Asian value transference) >>> actual skills.

    , @Peter Johnson
    I do not completely agree with you on this technical point. There an infinite variety of ways to measure the change over time. To actually say one is the best and another is flawed requires a complete model of the data generating process, maximum likelihood or other objective criterion for choosing, etc. Their choice seems ok and your choice seems ok but neither is absolutely correct or definitively flawed, unless one specifies a complete statistical model.
  18. JohnnyD says:

    I’m sure that tearing down Confederate statues will greatly improve black SAT scores…

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Didn't you hear? Tear down a Confederate statue and you get 50 bonus points on the SAT. We'll close that gap in no time.
  19. Yan Shen says:
    @Stacy235l
    Interestingly, it looks like Asians have been starting to follow whites

    Starting to follow whites? They've been cheating and flooding American schools for generations now. This shows that they're continuing to follow us. It makes it look like *they don't want them any more after they've got'em. They'll just keep following and taking from us forever. Something has to be done about this.

    I know pointing out Asian academic fraud will be upsetting to some, but in Asia cheating is the norm. The magic dirt of America doesn't make'em stop.

    * It appears that to Asians, as to Blacks, everything seems better when white people have it. I wonder why?

    They’ll just keep following and taking from us forever. Something has to be done about this.

    Seems like the only thing that can be done, unless we want to endorse pogroms against market dominant minorities, is to reduce the delta on something like the SAT math.

    I’m also in favor of reducing immigration in general, but I suspect that’s not all that you have in mind.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stacy235l
    Seems like the only thing that can be done, unless we want to endorse pogroms against market dominant minorities

    Cheating isn't market dominance. Or maybe it is. Congratulations, your people dominate the academic fraud market. Hope your proud.

    If you were really that bright you wouldn't need to follow and take from us, you would have founded all the top schools yourselves.

    , @3g4me
    @ 1-1000 Always and Eternal Yan Shen: When you establish your primarily Han genius ethnostate, we'll all congratulate you on your foresight and success. Oh wait, there are already a number of Han ethnostates, yet for some unknown reason all that Han innate genius only seems to flower among White European Christian civilization. Funny, that.

    What you may have in mind doesn't particularly matter, since America is not your country and Americans are certainly not your people. Your incessant crowing about purported Asian intellectual superiority (ever present in your comments at other sites prior to your banning as a pain in the ass) exhibits a certain astounding lack of self-awareness, to use something another commenter here remarked about Jack D - another example of a proud "market-dominant minority."
  20. The multiracial component has to be another factor that’s driving the gap. The category only appears around ’08 or ’09 in the Harvard graph and seems to be concurrent with a decline in blacks and Asians. I don’t know the exact value of privilege Pokemon points, but a multiracial black/Hispanic could have a leg up in admissions and a happa could have an admission advantage over an Asian or a white.

    Read More
  21. @Steve Sailer
    Seems implausible.

    Well, would you believe this one?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    No, but it's funny.
    , @Anonymous
    Imagine having such a low opinion of your own shock troops that you'd worry the public wouldn't realize that these are parodies, so you instruct your propaganda outlets to cover for them by calling them victims of a "smear campaign": http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41036631
  22. RonS says:

    Have you noticed that http://www.collegeboard.com seems to have stopped providing detailed SAT breakdowns by race and gender?

    Data such as that in the Brookings graph above has always been readily available on the college board site. I recently looked for that information but could not find it. All that they now include in their reports are group median scores.

    Did I just miss it or is this another example of PC covering up of hate facts?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    The trend now is for hate-data like this to be released only to academics who then release the info in journal articles behind paywalls.

    The way to fight this is to just get the articles from a university library or using the proxy of a current student you know, then putting it into wikipedia with the proper citation.
  23. Lot says:

    Part of the reason whites are abandoning the UCs is that the price gap has narrowed. Sticker price at private schools is mostly now for the dumb kids of rich people plus foreigners.

    To keep the sweet sweet river of Red Chinamen paying the full $53,000 a year tuition flowing, you need to have a critical mass of white Americans too. If they wanted to go to school with a bunch of Chinese, they could just stay in China.

    A moderately bright white American kid should have no problem finding a respectable private school that will charge under $15,000 a year after “scholarships,” which some colleges give to more than 90% of non-foreign students.

    Read More
  24. @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, would you believe this one?

    https://files.gab.ai/image/599f62e49537a.jpeg

    No, but it’s funny.

    Read More
  25. DPG says:

    You can send your sons to a public school, where they can hook up with the plentiful Asian girls. If you want your daughter to get used to dating eligible men, you have to send her to a private school.

    Read More
  26. Lot says:

    Harvard should just eliminate the catagory of international in its student race data and count them in with the Americans. Suddenly the Asian share would go way up and appease the Unz/Hsu/Twinkie “Harvad Unfair to Asian!” brigade. With a gazillion people in Africa and Latin America to choose from, they can also admit the expected 22% or whatever black/hispanic quota without lowering standards so much. And really, elite white or whitish South Americans are a lot cooler to have as classmates than Chuy el Chubby Chicano de Chicago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Unz/Hsu/Twinkie “Harvad Unfair to Asian!” brigade.
     
    Although I respect the work that Messrs. Unz and Hsu do, I have a somewhat different take on the whole "Asian underrepresentation" thing.

    As I wrote in the past several times, I prefer a meritocratic elite over an unmeritocratic one, but I much prefer a patriotic elite with noblesse oblige over a meritocratic one.

    Suddenly the Asian share would go way up
     
    If the current form of "holistic admission" standards were to be dropped in favor of pure meritocracy, the Asian percentage would probably rise from 15-20% to 30-35%. But the white percentage would stay about the same.* Meanwhile, the NAM percentage would crater.

    *Of course, while the white percentage would remain stable, the "whites" in that category would be different whites. That is to say, more goyim and fewer Jews. You probably don't like that so much.
    , @Anon
    I would be very wary of sending a kid to a college with the idea of picking up a South American white mate. The elite families anywhere south of the Rio Grande tend to be intermingled with local mafias to a degree that's absolutely appalling. Even if the elites aren't criminals themselves, they have too many criminal friends and associates.
  27. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Seems implausible.

    More like mathematically impossible, since 43% of the Jewish population (using the Nuremberg Law Israel immigration definition) is more than 1% of the population.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico
    Or did it mean that the top 1% of America's population includes 43% of its Jewish population? That seems at least somewhat more plausible.
  28. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer


    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    If these scores meant anything in the real world than Asians would’ve taken over Wall Street long ago. Markets have never been more dependent on high level math. Yet Asian representation is modest. And –most importantly– there is no Asian reputation for investment, market speculation (or blatant manipulation) genius.

    Ethnic groups develop reputations within industries. This is where the rubber meets the road. And if you think there are Wall Street players demanding Asians be in charge of their departments, firms or accounts, due to known stellar track record that seems to be an ethnic trait, think again. It’s not happening.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    I'm fairly certain East Asians are over-represented amongst quants. For instance, I remember Michael Lewis talking about Greg Lippmann's "Chinese quant" in The Big Short. It was also one of the more memorable scenes in the movie adaptation of the novel.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/greg-lippmanns-chinese-quant-eugene-xu-leaves-deutsche-bank-2010-5

    Let's also not forget that David X. Li was another guy who pioneered the usage of Gaussian copula models for pricing CDOs back in the early 2000s, which contributed to a lot of this stuff to begin with.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_X._Li

    You're probably thinking more of investment banking or other softer areas of finance where it's more about having an aggressive jock personality. A lot of athlete types for instance fare well in investment banking or even as traders!

    Elite East Asians in general skew more towards tech than finance from what I can see. You can see this also reflected in the very different way that East Asian economies are oriented compared to the economies of the West, California tech aside. As many have pointed out, the economies of China, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are disproportionately oriented towards tech and advanced manufacturing, whereas Western economies tend to be more oriented towards services such as investment banking, management consulting, etc.

    , @lavoisier
    Asians are starting to win a lot of Nobel prizes and are very active in patent applications. Their intelligence is legitimate.

    That they have not started dominating Wall Street yet is not an indication of a lack of intelligence.

    What takes more brains? Winning a Nobel prize in science and making important scientific discoveries or becoming a hedge fund billionaire?
  29. Having looked into the NYT article a little more to see what is up with their data, weirdly excluding multiracial students in the present day cohort (and possibly Native Americans/whatever else they are missing) seems to be doing most of the heavy lifting. Multiracial students (with almost all of these being from Asian/Hispanic/other mixes, not black) are 8-10% of the high school or college-applying cohorts these days, so not negligible.

    Also, at elite colleges, international/non-citizen students might have gone from about 3% in 1980 to 15% in the present day. It’s not clear, maybe I didn’t dig deep enough, if the many charts presented are made with this in mind or not, if they are including non-citizen students that simply cuts into the proportion of all students of all races remaining.

    Blacks are probably about 11% of the American citizen students at elite colleges in the present day, 13%ish of the population, and in 1980 they were more underrepresented than that, by ratio and by total percentage points, say 7%/12%.

    There were actually so few Hispanics in the US in about 1980 (and few would be elite students) that is possible a given random college, like an Ivy League college, had a more extreme ratio of Hispanics then than in the present day, but that’s very noisy data from small numbers.

    As already mentioned somewhere, that Brookings graph is not sourced from a data source with absolute numbers and has huge error (in other words, they calculate their numbers by multiplying a rounded-off percentile of students against the total numbers, which for white students could be anywhere from 1.6% to 2.9%, and that represents a difference of thousands of students because whites are such a large group of test-takers and which could change the Asian/white ratio by about 20 percentage points. For every other group, being accurate to the nearest percentage point matters much much less). Also, no accounting for American citizenship (the underlying data source doesn’t publicly release this either).

    It might actually be possible to backtrack from total numbers reported or male/female estimates to calculate a closer to true number range by race for that category, still no way to account for citizenship, multiple tests taken etc.

    Better present-day (or at least as close to the present year as is released) data imo for the number of relatively elite students is AP exam scores. Higher proportion of US citizens, less effect of repeated test-taking and superscoring since that basically doesn’t happen, and no competition weirdly siphoning off students. While there is an SAT/ACT split nontrivially by geography, demographics, etc… (and for example, only “top” students in a given state may self-select into taking the SAT or ACT in that state while everyone else takes the other one) AP exams have comparatively very little competition.

    Not that this is a victory for SJW diversity, of course. Whites/Asians together (plus multiracials who are white/Asian) make up about 90% of elite scorers, and whites are anywhere from 2x to 4x the Asian numbers depending on the subject (say, maths vs english)

    Read More
    • Replies: @prusmc
    Some schools flaunt the number and percent of students enrolled in AP courses. They pat themselves on the back for high enrollment and then conceal the scores. This means that a large number of 1 or 2 test scores is success and counts as much in the school evaluation as much or more than a few 4 and 5 scores.
  30. Lot says:
    @RonS
    Have you noticed that www.collegeboard.com seems to have stopped providing detailed SAT breakdowns by race and gender?

    Data such as that in the Brookings graph above has always been readily available on the college board site. I recently looked for that information but could not find it. All that they now include in their reports are group median scores.

    Did I just miss it or is this another example of PC covering up of hate facts?

    The trend now is for hate-data like this to be released only to academics who then release the info in journal articles behind paywalls.

    The way to fight this is to just get the articles from a university library or using the proxy of a current student you know, then putting it into wikipedia with the proper citation.

    Read More
  31. Yan Shen says:
    @Anonymous
    @Yan Shen
    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    If these scores meant anything in the real world than Asians would've taken over Wall Street long ago. Markets have never been more dependent on high level math. Yet Asian representation is modest. And --most importantly-- there is no Asian reputation for investment, market speculation (or blatant manipulation) genius.

    Ethnic groups develop reputations within industries. This is where the rubber meets the road. And if you think there are Wall Street players demanding Asians be in charge of their departments, firms or accounts, due to known stellar track record that seems to be an ethnic trait, think again. It's not happening.

    I’m fairly certain East Asians are over-represented amongst quants. For instance, I remember Michael Lewis talking about Greg Lippmann’s “Chinese quant” in The Big Short. It was also one of the more memorable scenes in the movie adaptation of the novel.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/greg-lippmanns-chinese-quant-eugene-xu-leaves-deutsche-bank-2010-5

    Let’s also not forget that David X. Li was another guy who pioneered the usage of Gaussian copula models for pricing CDOs back in the early 2000s, which contributed to a lot of this stuff to begin with.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_X._Li

    You’re probably thinking more of investment banking or other softer areas of finance where it’s more about having an aggressive jock personality. A lot of athlete types for instance fare well in investment banking or even as traders!

    Elite East Asians in general skew more towards tech than finance from what I can see. You can see this also reflected in the very different way that East Asian economies are oriented compared to the economies of the West, California tech aside. As many have pointed out, the economies of China, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are disproportionately oriented towards tech and advanced manufacturing, whereas Western economies tend to be more oriented towards services such as investment banking, management consulting, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Let’s also not forget that David X. Li was another guy who pioneered the usage of Gaussian copula models for pricing CDOs back in the early 2000s, which contributed to a lot of this stuff to begin with.

    That worked out well:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/wall-streets-infatuation-with-gauss/

    , @heh
    Yet East Asian countries have lower productivity than all of the leading Western nations, and not by a small amount either. Remember, GDP per capita is productivity x hours worked. If we'd normalise all countries to 1500 hours worked per person, per year, then East Asian countries would fall far behind.

    Those who don't know economics think that working more means you're better. Well, Greeks work hardest in Europe, not because they are most disciplined but because they have really bad productivity. Same pattern holds vis-a-vis East Asian developed countries like Japan/Korea/Taiwan vs the leading Western nations.

    So, nice excuse-making, but if EAs were so brilliant, we'd see it in productivity statistics. We don't. Protip: you can use math in more areas than just manufacturing or tech.
  32. res says:
    @Jack D
    Something is strange about the black right tail on the Brookings graph - 2%, 2%, 2% (and it's mirror image the left Asian tail). The predicted outcome is that as the middle tier, the white group should have a symmetrical graph with the largest # in the middle (this is the classic Bell Curve presented slightly differently) while the high and low IQ groups dominate one tail (their bell curves are cut off on one side by floor/ceiling effects) and should taper to the other tail. It all works except the outlying tail doesn't taper but instead flattens. What is that about?

    I think it is an artifact of overall population changes at tails and perhaps some rounding issues. This version of the graphic (from Steve’s link) looks more like you describe.

    More discussion of the Brookings graphic from February at http://www.unz.com/isteve/brookings-race-gaps-in-sat-math-scores-are-as-big-as-ever/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Better, but still misleading - the left tail (200-250 and 250-300) is missing, presumably because you would see two more tall bars for blacks, smaller ones for Hispanics and almost no whites or (especially) Asians. The 200-250 bar would be the taller one because it includes all the blacks who would score below 200 if such a score was possible just as the tall right Asian bar includes not only all the dudes whose real score is 750-800 but those that would get 850 or 900 if that was possible.
  33. res says:
    @JohnnyD
    I'm sure that tearing down Confederate statues will greatly improve black SAT scores...

    Didn’t you hear? Tear down a Confederate statue and you get 50 bonus points on the SAT. We’ll close that gap in no time.

    Read More
  34. HI says:

    The materials (prior test questions and answers) generated by the Chinese SAT cheating industry have been making their way into the US through the Chinese-American community. There is no comparable cheating industry for the ACT, afaik. I’d be curious to see an ACT math trend chart to see if it matches the SAT one. If Asian ACT scores parallel the SAT ones, that would suggest cheating is not a big factor. If Asian SAT scores went up faster than ACT scores in recent years, the divergence could be attributed to Chinese cheating (which would be higher than the difference due to dilution by non-Chinese). I don’t have this data for the ACT but someone surely does.

    Read More
  35. @Yan Shen
    I'm fairly certain East Asians are over-represented amongst quants. For instance, I remember Michael Lewis talking about Greg Lippmann's "Chinese quant" in The Big Short. It was also one of the more memorable scenes in the movie adaptation of the novel.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/greg-lippmanns-chinese-quant-eugene-xu-leaves-deutsche-bank-2010-5

    Let's also not forget that David X. Li was another guy who pioneered the usage of Gaussian copula models for pricing CDOs back in the early 2000s, which contributed to a lot of this stuff to begin with.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_X._Li

    You're probably thinking more of investment banking or other softer areas of finance where it's more about having an aggressive jock personality. A lot of athlete types for instance fare well in investment banking or even as traders!

    Elite East Asians in general skew more towards tech than finance from what I can see. You can see this also reflected in the very different way that East Asian economies are oriented compared to the economies of the West, California tech aside. As many have pointed out, the economies of China, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are disproportionately oriented towards tech and advanced manufacturing, whereas Western economies tend to be more oriented towards services such as investment banking, management consulting, etc.

    Let’s also not forget that David X. Li was another guy who pioneered the usage of Gaussian copula models for pricing CDOs back in the early 2000s, which contributed to a lot of this stuff to begin with.

    That worked out well:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/wall-streets-infatuation-with-gauss/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Hey man, I never claimed that it wasn't a uh recipe for disaster...
  36. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, would you believe this one?

    https://files.gab.ai/image/599f62e49537a.jpeg

    Imagine having such a low opinion of your own shock troops that you’d worry the public wouldn’t realize that these are parodies, so you instruct your propaganda outlets to cover for them by calling them victims of a “smear campaign”: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41036631

    Read More
  37. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Why is Hispanic enrollment at UC Irvine so high since California banned affirmative action? Is it that transfer scam you wrote about UCLA using?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I dunno.

    Here's a recent UCI press release:


    UCI meets U.S. Department of Education eligibility as a Hispanic-serving institution
    Latino enrollment reaches 25.7 percent, reflecting campus commitment to diversity

    ON MAY 22, 2017
    Irvine, Calif., May 22, 2017 — The U.S. Department of Education has named the University of California, Irvine a Hispanic-serving institution for 2017-18, meaning that fully one-quarter of undergraduates identify as Latino and that half of all students receive financial aid.

    The designation builds on UCI’s recognition earlier this year as an Asian American and Native American Pacific Islander-serving institution, demonstrating the university’s dedication to providing a world-class education to every qualified student.

    HSI and AANAPISI are part of a federal program to help universities support first-generation and low-income students. They increase UCI’s eligibility for funding and grants from the departments of Education, Agriculture and Housing & Urban Development that can be used for a variety of purposes: to boost financial aid and other student services, to purchase scientific and laboratory equipment, for faculty development and to improve classrooms.


    “This milestone validates our commitment to diversity and aligns with our aspiration to be a national leader and global model of inclusive excellence,” said UCI Chancellor Howard Gillman. “This program enables UCI to serve as an engine of social mobility for all Californians and empowers us to create a more brilliant future for everyone in the state.”

    UCI’s current Hispanic enrollment is 25.7 percent, double what it was a decade ago, and the campus received more Chicano/Latino freshman applications for the 2017-18 academic year (23,463) than any other UC school.
     
    Maybe when the economy collapsed UCI decided to pursue federal funds for being heavily Hispanic?

    Seems like a really bad marketing decision, though.
  38. Whiskey says: • Website

    What is the easily foreseeable outcomes here?

    A. We will have an elite formed out of Harvard and so on that is largely non-White and much of that Black.
    B. The sub-elite or lower elite out of UC and the various state schools like Missouri and so on will be amazingly non-White, mostly Asian/Hispanic.
    C. The mostly White schools will be out in the Mountain West, places like West Virginia or New Hampshire and Vermont, and schools in the Deep South where defacto segregation is a matter of survival. PHYSICAL survival.

    In short, we will have nearly every region of the nation save the Mountain West and small portions of the NE plus portions of the Deep South pursuing every White man into the weeds. Kevin Michael Grace’s joke on VDARE.com about figuring he’ll wake up to Trump and Pence arrested and a national reconciliation government of Ryan and Schumer sending every White male to a FEMA gulag seems prophetic.

    But what then? Does anyone have any confidence that a nation with a leadership class comprised of Barack Obama, Valerie Jarrett, Kamala Harris, Xochotil Hinojosa, Marco Rubio, Antonio Villaraigosa, and Elaine Chao are going to prevent disaster? Or that a lower tier of elite/leaders comprised of the Aslan Brothers, late of Debbie Wasserman Schulz’s IT staff, various scamming Asian foreigners, and the like will bring anything other than absolute disaster of Pakistani levels daily to American life in the space of months if not weeks?

    And then what? After every competent White male has been purged from every place from the White House down to the motor pool mechanic, what then? Will President for Life Kamala Harris be happy with hot and cold running sewage in the White House? Nope, the only solution will be what Mao did when faced with disaster as the Soviets made moves on his border — call off the Cultural Revolution and bring back the imperialist running dogs to actually run things, only with a gun to their backs and little leeway. This is what Stalin did when he suddenly needed people under Hitler’s Blitzkrieg.

    This is likely to happen very fast, with connecting technology speeding up the cycles far beyond what we’ve seen before. Our goal is survival, nothing more.

    Read More
  39. @Yan Shen

    The methodology used to determine higher or lower degree of representation is incorrect. The NYT compares the absolute percent deltas instead of the ratios.

    Imagine that Hispanics were say 8% of the general population in 1980 but 4% of students at elite colleges. In 2017, we see that they're 16% of the general population but 8% of students at elite colleges. The NYT would say the delta went from 8-4 = 4% to 16-8 = 8%, but in reality the ratio of 4/8 and 8/16 are both 50% and in this example Hispanics remain represented at 50% their overall population % at elite schools.

    Will the NYT publish a retraction of their potentially flawed methodology?
     

    Yo Steve. I submitted this as a comment to that article. We'll see when it gets approved and published whether the uh NYT writers pick up on it.

    Yes, NYT used bad methodology. No, your method is not valid either, although better than the NYT Asian reporter’s. The fraction of foreign students has increased, and it affects the numerator but not the denominator of your calculation. A simple cure for that is to divide your Hispanic (or Asian, or black) American university/population ratio by the one for white Americans, thinking of the latter as a baseline.

    By the way, isn’t it interesting that the Eastasian math superhero genes you keep acclaiming happen to fail whenever it’s not a question on an admissions test? It’s almost as if there’s a big discrepancy where ethnic self-image >>> test scores (Asian value transference) >>> actual skills.

    Read More
  40. @Yan Shen
    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.

    Perhaps I’ve asked this before, but what’s the breakdown of who are South Asians, Southeast Asians, and East Asians? Living here in the backwaters of the US, our perceptions of them get all mixed together. Our bad, no doubt.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    what’s the breakdown of who are South Asians, Southeast Asians, and East Asians?
     
    Roughly:

    East Asians = Japanese, Chinese, Koreans

    South Asians = Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalese

    SE Asians = Filipinos, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians, Laotians, Thais, Malaysians, Burmese

    But it's all complicated by the fact that nearly all of the SE Asian countries have sizable ethnic Chinese sub-populations. Some of them are mixed with the locals to greater and lesser extents, but many are still pretty heavily genetically Chinese.

    Singapore is geographically SE Asian, obviously, but its population is 75% Chinese, so call it what you will.

    , @Anonymous
    You raise a good point. Several years ago, the dumb Asians (Tongans, Melanesians, Micronesians) petitioned the UC system to split them off from "Asians-Pacific Islanders" as a separate racial quota group since they have such huge intelligence and cultural deficits when compared to smarter "Asian" races such as Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans. As I remember the article was in the LA Times.

    Since the UC system discriminates against "Asian" students, generally, the dumb Asians were at a double disadvantage.
  41. kihowi says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Seems implausible.

    Looks like the person who made that image heard that 43% of the 1% are Jewish and got it the wrong way round.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yes. The 1% are around 3 million so if 43% of them are Jewish (I don't even know whether that is true), that's a little over 1 million. 43% of the US Jewish population is more like 2.5 million. So attacking the 1% is more like attacking 20% of the Jewish population. That still leaves 80% of Jews out of the 1% (vs 99% of everyone else).
  42. Stacy235l says:
    @Yan Shen

    They’ll just keep following and taking from us forever. Something has to be done about this.
     
    Seems like the only thing that can be done, unless we want to endorse pogroms against market dominant minorities, is to reduce the delta on something like the SAT math.

    I'm also in favor of reducing immigration in general, but I suspect that's not all that you have in mind.

    Seems like the only thing that can be done, unless we want to endorse pogroms against market dominant minorities

    Cheating isn’t market dominance. Or maybe it is. Congratulations, your people dominate the academic fraud market. Hope your proud.

    If you were really that bright you wouldn’t need to follow and take from us, you would have founded all the top schools yourselves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn't primarily due to HBD? (Let's ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)

    In other words, East Asians are really really good at uh cheating on math tests like the SAT math, AIME, USAMO, or the likes but not as good at cheating on verbal tests like the LSAT or say the bar exams for law.

    And it's entirely coincidental that the kinds of admissions tests they're more proficient at cheating on versus less proficient at cheating on also seems to be reflected in the psychometric literature when it comes to more general IQ testing.

    Sounds to me like someone's wielding what Steve would refer to as Occam's Butterknife!

    Please refer to my prior comments about East Asian economies vs Western economies. A meme popularized by Half Sigma/Lion of the Blogosphere was that high math ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    Wouldn't it make more sense to describe those disproportionately engaged in value transference as the people really taking away from others?

  43. Today it seems as if a huge fraction of white parents are just convinced that of course they will have to spend an extra $125k to send their kids to a private college in another state instead of to a public college that they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars their whole lives.

    Yep, I see this a lot. In fact, they often send their kids to another state’s state school! That means paying way more money for no more quality. And these are often people who will really miss that money when they retire.

    Read More
    • Replies: @StillCARealist
    Well you can include these parents in that stat. We looked at UC Berkeley and Davis, and they were crowded and gross. Gross like homeless people all around. Plus, the student who conducted the campus tour at Berkeley was some sort of lesbian communist. My son was thoroughly turned off.

    Cal Poly is a beautiful campus, but it's just so crowded. Why be a number in a huge machine when you can get personal attention and mentoring in a small institution? The smaller, elite, private CA schools didn't accept him so it's off to AZ for college. The cost really isn't that different for us.

    the state schools, like Sac State, Fresno State, are full of students who aren't taking it seriously. Some are, but many are working full/part time and drifting in and out of majors and semesters. My old guitar teacher was majoring in music at Sac State and then decided to switch to computer science. He was essentially a student throughout his twenties.
    , @Anon
    Parents may be counting on selling their 1 million dollar house (originally bought for 300K) and using the profit to retire to a cheaper state.
    , @3g4me
    @43 International Jew: Just as Steve noted Whites don't seem to breed well in captivity, neither do they flourish when constantly prodded by others who want to overwhelm them and then claim to be them.
    Gee, it almost seems as though many White parents are willing to pay ruinous $ to ensure their kids experience, somewhere and sometime, a White environment - particularly where assortative mating is concerned. Then, there are those of us who attended "elite" institutions ourselves who are unwilling to throw our children to the diversity mob and thus eschew college for our offspring altogether.

    It's almost as though DNA matters. Who'dathunkit?
    , @Anonymous

    they often send their kids to another state’s state school! That means paying way more money for no more quality.
     
    We just went through this. Other state schools often give a lot of automatic merit aid for good students and many are actively recruiting California students. Our son got offered $21K and $15K/year from U of Az and ASU, respectively, which brought down the cost to under $30K, so less than the UCs and just above the Cal States. ASU is very decently ranked (top 40) in engineering. Additionally, our local private school, Chapman University, also offers automatic aid, too - $29K is their top award I believe, $22K is the second tier. They were able to attract a handful of top (Asian) students (4.5/4.7+ GPAs, 12+ type kids APs) from my son's high school away from the UCs.

    CARealist - Cal Poly is a large school (around 21,000 undergrads) but it holds class sizes very small. This year it over enrolled by about 800 kids so everyone is doubled and tripled up in the dorms and apartments and yet my son's Physics II class is 48 kids, Calc II is 50, and English class is 22. *That* is the number one reason I pushed him to accept their offer even though our main focus was on out state options. My husband and I went to east coast private, top 50 nationally ranked colleges and our foundational science/math classes were never that small. Moreover, the student population is currently (they're working on changing that) majority white and the medium income of the students who go there is around $152K with only ~15% of students coming from homes that make under $65K (very similar to a private school like RPI), giving him as close to a private school experience at a public school price as we can get.

    One thing that bothers me about the UCs is the enormous percentage of students who come from households that make less than $65,000 - hovering about 35% overall (Davis: 37%, San Diego 43%, to name two). This is quite a bit more than other state university systems, too - Oregon State: 25%, Colorado State is at 20% to name two other systems. I'm not sure how the UCs can get away with affording to turn their back on full tuition-paying bright white kids but I've come to the conclusion they are actively pushing whites out of the UCs. Hopefully budget realities will eventually catch up with them but seeing how corruptly and ineptly California is run I am not holding my breath.

    (source for economic info here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html?_r=0)

  44. BozoB says:

    I have no argument against classifying Jews as whites, but the NYT’s unwillingness to look at the Jewish and non-Jewish components of the “white” population obscures a rather significant social fact: because the elite schools have a very high Jewish population, the non-Jewish white student population is significantly “under-represented,” to use the Times’s term.

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  45. Yan Shen says:
    @Stacy235l
    Seems like the only thing that can be done, unless we want to endorse pogroms against market dominant minorities

    Cheating isn't market dominance. Or maybe it is. Congratulations, your people dominate the academic fraud market. Hope your proud.

    If you were really that bright you wouldn't need to follow and take from us, you would have founded all the top schools yourselves.

    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn’t primarily due to HBD? (Let’s ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)

    In other words, East Asians are really really good at uh cheating on math tests like the SAT math, AIME, USAMO, or the likes but not as good at cheating on verbal tests like the LSAT or say the bar exams for law.

    And it’s entirely coincidental that the kinds of admissions tests they’re more proficient at cheating on versus less proficient at cheating on also seems to be reflected in the psychometric literature when it comes to more general IQ testing.

    Sounds to me like someone’s wielding what Steve would refer to as Occam’s Butterknife!

    Please refer to my prior comments about East Asian economies vs Western economies. A meme popularized by Half Sigma/Lion of the Blogosphere was that high math ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    Wouldn’t it make more sense to describe those disproportionately engaged in value transference as the people really taking away from others?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    Cram schooling for years before taking the SAT isn't cheating, but it does suggest Asian SAT scores overpredict IQ. The Asian White SAT math gap is substantially larger than what you'd predict from the math IQ subscores.

    That is not a moral judgement BTW, I encourage teens in my family to study more for the SAT. I tell them one extra question right could be the difference between getting and not getting a $20,000 scholarship. I do this in vain though, they seem content to get their 1250s taking the test with no prep and going to their state flagship public school.

    Actual SAT cheating seems to be common in South Korea and the rich parts of China.
    , @AM

    Wouldn’t it make more sense to describe those disproportionately engaged in value transference as the people really taking away from others?
     
    sigh It takes many paragraphs to justify cheating and lieing and usually it's with sentences like these.

    The Asian are more likely to cheat on math exams because the culture holds math in higher esteem than say being a lawyer, which it appears is a universally hated profession. :)

    At any rate, I don't think Asians really cheat all the much because they hold their own in places/occupations where cheating on just one exam doesn't get you very much. The real issue is that the culture of corruption, particularly theft and cheating, has prevented using that talent very effectively.
    , @Moses

    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn’t primarily due to HBD? (Let’s ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)
     
    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-European gap on something like, oh I dunno, every single technological and business innovation of the last 500 years isn't primarily due to HBD?

    Euros invent. Asians copy. HBD.

  46. The New York Times comments section does not allow anyone to mention the true and increasingly obvious reason for the failure of affirmative action: genetically-mediated average differences in behavioral patterns across races. They, along with others supporting the mainstream narrative, censor the truth to enforce social harmony, but in the long run (like now) it produces social dissonance instead.

    Read More
  47. Yan Shen says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Let’s also not forget that David X. Li was another guy who pioneered the usage of Gaussian copula models for pricing CDOs back in the early 2000s, which contributed to a lot of this stuff to begin with.

    That worked out well:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/wall-streets-infatuation-with-gauss/

    Hey man, I never claimed that it wasn’t a uh recipe for disaster…

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  48. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer


    You’re probably thinking more of investment banking or other softer areas of finance where it’s more about having an aggressive jock personality.

    No. The algos used to manipulate the markets are not a “soft area of finance.” I used the words high level math and manipulation in my comment but you twisted what I said.

    There is evidence of modest Asian participation in the hedge fund AI universe. But according to the test scores Asians should be dominating market manipulation worldwide. Asians are as greedy as anyone else and they love to gamble more than anyone and they have huge populations. So where is the flood of Asian geniuses in the markets? The answer is that there is no flood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Liberal hypocrisy
    "Asians are as greedy as anyone else and they love to gamble more than anyone and they have huge populations. So where is the flood of Asian geniuses in the markets? The answer is that there is no flood."

    We should be thanking God that they are not flooding Wall Street. We've already got enough Jews there wrecking the whole world's economy for their own gains, the last thing we need is more Asians following in their footsteps.

  49. Twinkie says:
    @Lot
    Harvard should just eliminate the catagory of international in its student race data and count them in with the Americans. Suddenly the Asian share would go way up and appease the Unz/Hsu/Twinkie "Harvad Unfair to Asian!" brigade. With a gazillion people in Africa and Latin America to choose from, they can also admit the expected 22% or whatever black/hispanic quota without lowering standards so much. And really, elite white or whitish South Americans are a lot cooler to have as classmates than Chuy el Chubby Chicano de Chicago.

    Unz/Hsu/Twinkie “Harvad Unfair to Asian!” brigade.

    Although I respect the work that Messrs. Unz and Hsu do, I have a somewhat different take on the whole “Asian underrepresentation” thing.

    As I wrote in the past several times, I prefer a meritocratic elite over an unmeritocratic one, but I much prefer a patriotic elite with noblesse oblige over a meritocratic one.

    Suddenly the Asian share would go way up

    If the current form of “holistic admission” standards were to be dropped in favor of pure meritocracy, the Asian percentage would probably rise from 15-20% to 30-35%. But the white percentage would stay about the same.* Meanwhile, the NAM percentage would crater.

    *Of course, while the white percentage would remain stable, the “whites” in that category would be different whites. That is to say, more goyim and fewer Jews. You probably don’t like that so much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Caitlin Flanagan wrote in The Atlantic in 2001 about how when she was a college counselor at Harvard-Westlake in the Hollywood Hills about how rich parents would come to her desperate about getting their kid into some second tier Eastern college. She'd ask and find out that dad, who was making mid-six figures, usually had gone to UCLA.
    , @Lot
    I do not agree Jews are held to a lower standard in admissions. But your assumption I have a nepotistic bias toward them is wrong. I am half "goyim" and aside from fellow half breeds they make up 80% of my family due to differing fertility on each side.

    My reference to the Asian share going up was not from eliminating AA, but counting international students, who seem to be about 65% Asian in good schools, in race stats. In other words, a way for Harvard to appease SJW without any real policy change.
  50. Yan Shen says:

    A follow-up to my comments in this thread and partly in response to other comments I’m skimming in different threads. The fact of the matter is, complaining about Asian Americans or immigrant Asians disproportionately dominating academics in the United States doesn’t solve the entirety of the problem.

    Adopting a mentality of insularity and ethno-nationalism doesn’t change the fact that we live in a globalized economy. Remember when Japan bashing in the United States was in vogue during the 1980s and early 1990s, when Japan supposedly put a dent in the US automobile and consumer electronics industries? And you had Michael Crichton’s novel Rising Sun that somewhat bizarrely read like it could’ve been titled the The Protocols of the Elders of Tokyo?

    The world’s never been more interconnected, whether economically or scientifically. You’re never shielded from competition just because you’ve hiding in some ethnic enclave. So complaining doesn’t really solve anything.

    At the end of the day, the question is, who are the value creators in society?

    Read More
    • Replies: @3g4me
    @51 Yan Shen: "At the end of the day, the question is, who are the value creators in society?"

    Yet somehow you can never answer the question "Then why are you all here, and not at home among your own so very superior people and culture?"
    , @Liberal hypocrisy
    "Adopting a mentality of insularity and ethno-nationalism doesn’t change the fact that we live in a globalized economy...The world’s never been more interconnected, whether economically or scientifically. "

    That is such complete BS. Overwhelming majority of immigrants from mainland China are corrupt government officials or businessmen and their offspring, escaping to greener pastures with their ill gotten gains after wrecking their own society with corruption and their polluting factories.

    I'm so tired of Asians coming in here to lecture us about the wonders of globalization and multiculturalism, when in fact nearly all Asian societies are unbelievably insular and mono-cultural, and incredibly racist towards other races esp. people of darker skin. All Asian countries from Japan, China, Korea to India make it nearly impossible for foreigners to immigrate or become citizens. Yet these same groups never hesitate to yell "racist!" whenever any western country doesn't let them in en masse.

    If multiculturalim is really that wonderful, why doesn't China open its doors to mass immigration from Southeast Asia, India, Mideast, Africa, Latin America? Practice what you preach. Meanwhile, America's benefited enough from you Asians, please stay home and benefit yourselves.

  51. @Twinkie

    Unz/Hsu/Twinkie “Harvad Unfair to Asian!” brigade.
     
    Although I respect the work that Messrs. Unz and Hsu do, I have a somewhat different take on the whole "Asian underrepresentation" thing.

    As I wrote in the past several times, I prefer a meritocratic elite over an unmeritocratic one, but I much prefer a patriotic elite with noblesse oblige over a meritocratic one.

    Suddenly the Asian share would go way up
     
    If the current form of "holistic admission" standards were to be dropped in favor of pure meritocracy, the Asian percentage would probably rise from 15-20% to 30-35%. But the white percentage would stay about the same.* Meanwhile, the NAM percentage would crater.

    *Of course, while the white percentage would remain stable, the "whites" in that category would be different whites. That is to say, more goyim and fewer Jews. You probably don't like that so much.

    Caitlin Flanagan wrote in The Atlantic in 2001 about how when she was a college counselor at Harvard-Westlake in the Hollywood Hills about how rich parents would come to her desperate about getting their kid into some second tier Eastern college. She’d ask and find out that dad, who was making mid-six figures, usually had gone to UCLA.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Just a theory: I think that UCLA dad wants daughter to mingle with students from the right class. Colleges considered by many to be 2nd or 3rd tier aren't that, anymore to parents and students, as long as the majority of the kids are upper middle class. I can think of 50 colleges in New England that are easy to get into for a very intelligent HS kid, and they are applying to these in droves - so the school becomes more selective. Example: Hobart William Smith, Union, Northeastern, Endicott, Villanova, Providence, Roger Williams (great location), Bentley. Out west, midwest, & south: U of Denver, Marquette, Gettysburg, Baylor, SMU, Hendrix, Rhodes, Roanoke, James Madison, George Mason, Elon, High Point, Furman, Wake Forest, Wofford, College of Charleston, Clemson, many more.

    Virtually all of these colleges have rather steep tuition (or high OOS for public ones), but they are very generous towards top 5% SAT scorers. This fact is now royally ticking off elite U's because they don't think that is fair to give merit money to "rich kids"- kid you not! They feel that the lesser U's should only give money to poor students. I always find this so hypocritical since it is a well known fact that legacies and multi millionaires' kids, many that are just sketchy or average academically, always get accepted. Yet, they don't fill their elite campuses up with many poor urban (hardly ever, rural) kids. They definitely favor majority wealthy students.

    Non-elite U's figured out what works: give money to top 5% students, and fill your school up with students whose parents want them to mingle with other wealthy, well-adjusted very good students; result: college stays viable with full-freight paying students, thus becomes more selective every year. It is sort of brilliant. And, like I said, increasingly, if you are studying something like chemistry at Villanova, you will be in competition with Ivy Leagues grads, but, you may have no debt as you begin your first job...and, you had an absolute blast with the tons of friends you made.

    Here is a weird fact: kids are very unhappy at the Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, etc....many feel lonely; they're surrounded by deeply dissatisfied, offended by something kids, and many find the work too hard. So, many kids want to go to these other U's that have grown in reputation for being full of fun, happy, well-adjusted people. And, parents want the safety and peace of mind from a campus full of normies. Parents and students are alarmed with all the protests, violence, screaming at white kids about white privilege, canceling classes for some consciousness raising event, the cognitive dissonance.

    White kids are not accepted like they once were, into the elite U's, anyway, despite being in the top 3% academically...and I've griped about this before. If you have a hook (being an All-State-All-American in crew, or something) you get in. So, being with ambitious kids at a school which was perceived to be lower tier, is just fine. Perhaps it's a better place to meet more people who will be in the 1-2% earning power bracket, eventually, anyway. Fathers of daughters especially, want to launch their kid into a sea of appropriate suitors...upping their daughter's chances of finding a mate before the corporate ladder.

    Second and third tier Universities/colleges have come to represent a sort of a club where your child can mingle with their socio-economic piers without the threat of protests, grievance collector hysteria, or being screamed at, threatened for being privileged (Dartmouth, Berkeley, etc.). It's almost very 1950's on some of these campuses....especially during football games. In other words, private colleges are increasingly full of students from the top 5 % of socio-economic group anyway, despite the push for diversity, there is little or no diversity of class. I started noticing that students really do just want to simply study, have fun, make friends, get a job, get a boyfriend or girlfriend...and be happy in college. Parents, who will pay mega-bucks, don't want the hassles of today's elite U's zeitgeist. Pretty soon Berkeley will yield less innovators/super stars and become a joke school full of misanthropes.

  52. Olorin says:

    Even after decades of affirmative action, black and Hispanic students are more underrepresented at the nation’s top colleges and universities than they were 35 years ago, according to a New York Times analysis.

    I figure this bashing on by the NYT trio is just a distraction from another trend.

    Discussed at length in the past by both our host, and our host’s host.

    View post on imgur.com

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Comms
    Admissions offices are underexamined contributors to the distribution of ethnicities and other groupings. Staff and management in those offices perform gatekeeper, or thumb on the scale roles. Look out for number one is the motto. Call around, get organization charts, see who controls the decisions and you will find out where undisclosed soft power resides.
  53. Lot says:
    @Twinkie

    Unz/Hsu/Twinkie “Harvad Unfair to Asian!” brigade.
     
    Although I respect the work that Messrs. Unz and Hsu do, I have a somewhat different take on the whole "Asian underrepresentation" thing.

    As I wrote in the past several times, I prefer a meritocratic elite over an unmeritocratic one, but I much prefer a patriotic elite with noblesse oblige over a meritocratic one.

    Suddenly the Asian share would go way up
     
    If the current form of "holistic admission" standards were to be dropped in favor of pure meritocracy, the Asian percentage would probably rise from 15-20% to 30-35%. But the white percentage would stay about the same.* Meanwhile, the NAM percentage would crater.

    *Of course, while the white percentage would remain stable, the "whites" in that category would be different whites. That is to say, more goyim and fewer Jews. You probably don't like that so much.

    I do not agree Jews are held to a lower standard in admissions. But your assumption I have a nepotistic bias toward them is wrong. I am half “goyim” and aside from fellow half breeds they make up 80% of my family due to differing fertility on each side.

    My reference to the Asian share going up was not from eliminating AA, but counting international students, who seem to be about 65% Asian in good schools, in race stats. In other words, a way for Harvard to appease SJW without any real policy change.

    Read More
  54. @Dave Pinsen
    Why is Hispanic enrollment at UC Irvine so high since California banned affirmative action? Is it that transfer scam you wrote about UCLA using?

    I dunno.

    Here’s a recent UCI press release:

    UCI meets U.S. Department of Education eligibility as a Hispanic-serving institution
    Latino enrollment reaches 25.7 percent, reflecting campus commitment to diversity

    ON MAY 22, 2017
    Irvine, Calif., May 22, 2017 — The U.S. Department of Education has named the University of California, Irvine a Hispanic-serving institution for 2017-18, meaning that fully one-quarter of undergraduates identify as Latino and that half of all students receive financial aid.

    The designation builds on UCI’s recognition earlier this year as an Asian American and Native American Pacific Islander-serving institution, demonstrating the university’s dedication to providing a world-class education to every qualified student.

    HSI and AANAPISI are part of a federal program to help universities support first-generation and low-income students. They increase UCI’s eligibility for funding and grants from the departments of Education, Agriculture and Housing & Urban Development that can be used for a variety of purposes: to boost financial aid and other student services, to purchase scientific and laboratory equipment, for faculty development and to improve classrooms.

    “This milestone validates our commitment to diversity and aligns with our aspiration to be a national leader and global model of inclusive excellence,” said UCI Chancellor Howard Gillman. “This program enables UCI to serve as an engine of social mobility for all Californians and empowers us to create a more brilliant future for everyone in the state.”

    UCI’s current Hispanic enrollment is 25.7 percent, double what it was a decade ago, and the campus received more Chicano/Latino freshman applications for the 2017-18 academic year (23,463) than any other UC school.

    Maybe when the economy collapsed UCI decided to pursue federal funds for being heavily Hispanic?

    Seems like a really bad marketing decision, though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    This shockingly racist anti-white federal program gives out $8 million a year for the asian heavy schools and $100 million to hispanic heavy schools. A drop in the bucket. I guess if you are already 24% hispanic getting to 25% could be worth it. The average hispanic grant is $1 million per school and asian about $400,000.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    That seems to be a recurring cultural theme, Southern Californians heading east for college. Off the top of my head: Less Than Zero, Better Luck Tomorrow, Superbad.
  55. Lot says:
    @Yan Shen
    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn't primarily due to HBD? (Let's ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)

    In other words, East Asians are really really good at uh cheating on math tests like the SAT math, AIME, USAMO, or the likes but not as good at cheating on verbal tests like the LSAT or say the bar exams for law.

    And it's entirely coincidental that the kinds of admissions tests they're more proficient at cheating on versus less proficient at cheating on also seems to be reflected in the psychometric literature when it comes to more general IQ testing.

    Sounds to me like someone's wielding what Steve would refer to as Occam's Butterknife!

    Please refer to my prior comments about East Asian economies vs Western economies. A meme popularized by Half Sigma/Lion of the Blogosphere was that high math ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    Wouldn't it make more sense to describe those disproportionately engaged in value transference as the people really taking away from others?

    Cram schooling for years before taking the SAT isn’t cheating, but it does suggest Asian SAT scores overpredict IQ. The Asian White SAT math gap is substantially larger than what you’d predict from the math IQ subscores.

    That is not a moral judgement BTW, I encourage teens in my family to study more for the SAT. I tell them one extra question right could be the difference between getting and not getting a $20,000 scholarship. I do this in vain though, they seem content to get their 1250s taking the test with no prep and going to their state flagship public school.

    Actual SAT cheating seems to be common in South Korea and the rich parts of China.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen

    The Asian White SAT math gap is substantially larger than what you’d predict from the math IQ subscores.
     
    Not sure if I agree with that. On various non-verbal performance IQ tests, I've often seen deltas of anywhere between 10-15 points between East Asians and whites on avg, assuming say a SD of 15. The gap seems to be particularly high on something like the Raven's.

    The SAT math delta seems to me to also be mirrored in say the AIME or USAMO?
    , @keuril

    Cram schooling for years before taking the SAT isn’t cheating, but it does suggest Asian SAT scores overpredict IQ
     
    I recently spoke with an Asian girl attending a top Ivy. She told me she started studying for the SAT in fifth grade.
  56. @Laugh Track

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.
     
    Perhaps I've asked this before, but what's the breakdown of who are South Asians, Southeast Asians, and East Asians? Living here in the backwaters of the US, our perceptions of them get all mixed together. Our bad, no doubt.

    what’s the breakdown of who are South Asians, Southeast Asians, and East Asians?

    Roughly:

    East Asians = Japanese, Chinese, Koreans

    South Asians = Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalese

    SE Asians = Filipinos, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians, Laotians, Thais, Malaysians, Burmese

    But it’s all complicated by the fact that nearly all of the SE Asian countries have sizable ethnic Chinese sub-populations. Some of them are mixed with the locals to greater and lesser extents, but many are still pretty heavily genetically Chinese.

    Singapore is geographically SE Asian, obviously, but its population is 75% Chinese, so call it what you will.

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  57. It’s rayciss to question any aspect of a NYT article on any aspect of race in America.

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  58. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I dunno.

    Here's a recent UCI press release:


    UCI meets U.S. Department of Education eligibility as a Hispanic-serving institution
    Latino enrollment reaches 25.7 percent, reflecting campus commitment to diversity

    ON MAY 22, 2017
    Irvine, Calif., May 22, 2017 — The U.S. Department of Education has named the University of California, Irvine a Hispanic-serving institution for 2017-18, meaning that fully one-quarter of undergraduates identify as Latino and that half of all students receive financial aid.

    The designation builds on UCI’s recognition earlier this year as an Asian American and Native American Pacific Islander-serving institution, demonstrating the university’s dedication to providing a world-class education to every qualified student.

    HSI and AANAPISI are part of a federal program to help universities support first-generation and low-income students. They increase UCI’s eligibility for funding and grants from the departments of Education, Agriculture and Housing & Urban Development that can be used for a variety of purposes: to boost financial aid and other student services, to purchase scientific and laboratory equipment, for faculty development and to improve classrooms.


    “This milestone validates our commitment to diversity and aligns with our aspiration to be a national leader and global model of inclusive excellence,” said UCI Chancellor Howard Gillman. “This program enables UCI to serve as an engine of social mobility for all Californians and empowers us to create a more brilliant future for everyone in the state.”

    UCI’s current Hispanic enrollment is 25.7 percent, double what it was a decade ago, and the campus received more Chicano/Latino freshman applications for the 2017-18 academic year (23,463) than any other UC school.
     
    Maybe when the economy collapsed UCI decided to pursue federal funds for being heavily Hispanic?

    Seems like a really bad marketing decision, though.

    This shockingly racist anti-white federal program gives out $8 million a year for the asian heavy schools and $100 million to hispanic heavy schools. A drop in the bucket. I guess if you are already 24% hispanic getting to 25% could be worth it. The average hispanic grant is $1 million per school and asian about $400,000.

    Read More
  59. Yan Shen says:
    @Lot
    Cram schooling for years before taking the SAT isn't cheating, but it does suggest Asian SAT scores overpredict IQ. The Asian White SAT math gap is substantially larger than what you'd predict from the math IQ subscores.

    That is not a moral judgement BTW, I encourage teens in my family to study more for the SAT. I tell them one extra question right could be the difference between getting and not getting a $20,000 scholarship. I do this in vain though, they seem content to get their 1250s taking the test with no prep and going to their state flagship public school.

    Actual SAT cheating seems to be common in South Korea and the rich parts of China.

    The Asian White SAT math gap is substantially larger than what you’d predict from the math IQ subscores.

    Not sure if I agree with that. On various non-verbal performance IQ tests, I’ve often seen deltas of anywhere between 10-15 points between East Asians and whites on avg, assuming say a SD of 15. The gap seems to be particularly high on something like the Raven’s.

    The SAT math delta seems to me to also be mirrored in say the AIME or USAMO?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    "I’ve often seen deltas of anywhere between 10-15 points between East Asians and whites on avg, assuming say a SD of 15."

    Do you have some examples? I do not remember seeing anything like this in the K-12 test results broken down by subject and race.

    "USAMO"

    Based on the US spelling bee I conclude south asians have an average verbal IQ of 140. Or maybe these contests cannot be used to estimate group IQ.
  60. Is there an iSteve commenter out there with excel and analytical skills to fill in the %s at 1980, which Steve Sailer asked about? It would be a service. I have to grade summer exams all day and cannot do it. Someone?

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  61. @Yan Shen

    The methodology used to determine higher or lower degree of representation is incorrect. The NYT compares the absolute percent deltas instead of the ratios.

    Imagine that Hispanics were say 8% of the general population in 1980 but 4% of students at elite colleges. In 2017, we see that they're 16% of the general population but 8% of students at elite colleges. The NYT would say the delta went from 8-4 = 4% to 16-8 = 8%, but in reality the ratio of 4/8 and 8/16 are both 50% and in this example Hispanics remain represented at 50% their overall population % at elite schools.

    Will the NYT publish a retraction of their potentially flawed methodology?
     

    Yo Steve. I submitted this as a comment to that article. We'll see when it gets approved and published whether the uh NYT writers pick up on it.

    I do not completely agree with you on this technical point. There an infinite variety of ways to measure the change over time. To actually say one is the best and another is flawed requires a complete model of the data generating process, maximum likelihood or other objective criterion for choosing, etc. Their choice seems ok and your choice seems ok but neither is absolutely correct or definitively flawed, unless one specifies a complete statistical model.

    Read More
  62. Nico says:
    @Lot
    More like mathematically impossible, since 43% of the Jewish population (using the Nuremberg Law Israel immigration definition) is more than 1% of the population.

    Or did it mean that the top 1% of America’s population includes 43% of its Jewish population? That seems at least somewhat more plausible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Nope. Doesn't work unless Jews màke up about 80 per cent of the top 1 per centbin the US.
  63. anon says: • Disclaimer

    http://www.apa.org/education/ce/stigma-priming.pdf

    Just to tie up some details. With that post about Kahneman fessing up.

    The now discredited theory of priming is the old explanation of why Blacks will never close the gap,

    OK … Discredited in my dreams. But it is under attack and the bayesians won’t let this one go.

    Read More
  64. Lot says:
    @Yan Shen

    The Asian White SAT math gap is substantially larger than what you’d predict from the math IQ subscores.
     
    Not sure if I agree with that. On various non-verbal performance IQ tests, I've often seen deltas of anywhere between 10-15 points between East Asians and whites on avg, assuming say a SD of 15. The gap seems to be particularly high on something like the Raven's.

    The SAT math delta seems to me to also be mirrored in say the AIME or USAMO?

    “I’ve often seen deltas of anywhere between 10-15 points between East Asians and whites on avg, assuming say a SD of 15.”

    Do you have some examples? I do not remember seeing anything like this in the K-12 test results broken down by subject and race.

    “USAMO”

    Based on the US spelling bee I conclude south asians have an average verbal IQ of 140. Or maybe these contests cannot be used to estimate group IQ.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Read La Griffe du Lion - if you know what % of a subgroup is in the tail, then you can work backward from the normal curve and infer the median IQ . For example, if you know that ~25% of American Nobel Prize winners are Jewish (i.e. overrepresented from the general population by a factor of ~ 10), then you can infer (with a little mathematical hocus pocus) that median Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is somewhere around 110. If it was lower, it wouldn't be possible to have so many in the 140+ range where Nobel Prize winners are found. You could do the same with other g loaded tests.

    It seems that a lot of people here are suspicious of Asian test scores. Maybe a few people are cheating but it ain't ALL cheating, unless you view working really hard as cheating.
  65. Realist says:

    “Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago””

    Good now if we can get their representation down to what is justified by their ability….it will be great.

    Read More
  66. Can we ban Asian commenters from these types of threads?

    Asians cheat on tests. Everyone knows it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    Someone needs to do an exhaustive analysis of the racial/ethnic composition of the iSteve commentariat.

    I'm a goy, but I've spent most of my life in the Jewier corners of Latin Miami. As such, I've never known what it's like to be surrounded by "my people." (I have some relatives down here, but we're not on speaking terms. The only family I have is my mother.)

    My Minnesota-born father's folks were both second-generation Nordic immigrants; some of my mother's Scottish forebears came to America in colonial times.

    Now, here's my deep, dark secret: I have a non-trivial chunk of Native ancestry - as in, I have second (or is it third?) cousins who live or have lived on a reservation. (Yes, some of them are drunks.) I have been to said reservation. It does not have a casino, being in a state where airports have (legal) slot machines right at the gates.

    I have drunk deeply from the well of multigenerational suffering. (But I've never touched the firewater.)

    So I'm less than 100% white. (I take after my tall, fair father, so I *look* 100% white.) What I lose in Nazi racial-purity cred, I gain in this-is-my-land-immigrants-go-away cred. I also get to claim (truthfully) that I am descended from tribal chieftains.

    A little ethnic kink never hurt anybody, right?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, the cheating is called "study."

    We invented the standardized test, which Europe later adopted through the British. And in an amazing coincidence, we do well at it at something we designed and literally bred for.
  67. Arclight says:

    Is it possible that the increase in Asian performance can be partially chalked up to cheating? I seem to recall that Chinese students seeking admission to US schools engages in widespread cheating to get in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @BenjaminL
    Education Realist (who frequently comments here) has been making that case, not to mention Steve's own postings...

    https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/asian-immigrants-and-what-no-one-mentions-aloud/

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/could-rico-be-used-to-clean-up-sat-cheating/

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/guess-who-is-cheating-on-the-sat-again/

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/chinese-cheating/
    https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2012/05/26/cheating/
  68. keuril says:
    @Lot
    Cram schooling for years before taking the SAT isn't cheating, but it does suggest Asian SAT scores overpredict IQ. The Asian White SAT math gap is substantially larger than what you'd predict from the math IQ subscores.

    That is not a moral judgement BTW, I encourage teens in my family to study more for the SAT. I tell them one extra question right could be the difference between getting and not getting a $20,000 scholarship. I do this in vain though, they seem content to get their 1250s taking the test with no prep and going to their state flagship public school.

    Actual SAT cheating seems to be common in South Korea and the rich parts of China.

    Cram schooling for years before taking the SAT isn’t cheating, but it does suggest Asian SAT scores overpredict IQ

    I recently spoke with an Asian girl attending a top Ivy. She told me she started studying for the SAT in fifth grade.

    Read More
  69. Ben Kurtz says: • Website

    Steve and most of his readers don’t fall for this, but most average Americans who are not good at Noticing can easily be taken in by the “Resources Argument;” that is, the claim that poor Black and Hispanic students don’t do well in school or or standardized tests because their families and school districts lack the money to buy good teachers, SAT prep, and all the other little things that help better-off White and Asian kids get ahead.

    And if the Resources Argument is true, then ever-more affirmative action, welfare, federal intervention, Common Core, No Child Left Behind, etc., etc. is warranted because someday it will finally deliver sustainable Gap Closure.

    The problem with the Resources Argument, of course, is that it’s total bunk. When one does get ahold of data broken down by race as well as family income, the whole thing rapidly falls apart:

    Children of the richest black families ($200,000+ annual income) have SAT scores that are, on average, virtually equal to those of children of the poorest white families (sub-$20,000 annual income). Those same sub-$20k white children outscore, by 35 points, children of black families in the second-highest income bracket ($160k-$200k), and they outscore children of comparable poor black families (sub-$20k) by 180 points. There must be a whole lot of magic pixie dust in that poor white kid’s invisible knapsack to outweigh the after-school activities, European vacations and private SAT tutors that the rich suburban black kid can afford — but the white trailer park kid can only dream about! And a half century of intensive interventions has not fundamentally closed the gap.

    What I call The Most Important Graph in American Educational Policy is available here:

    https://benkurtzblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/12/the-blackwhite-sat-gap/

    Read More
  70. AM says:
    @Yan Shen
    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn't primarily due to HBD? (Let's ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)

    In other words, East Asians are really really good at uh cheating on math tests like the SAT math, AIME, USAMO, or the likes but not as good at cheating on verbal tests like the LSAT or say the bar exams for law.

    And it's entirely coincidental that the kinds of admissions tests they're more proficient at cheating on versus less proficient at cheating on also seems to be reflected in the psychometric literature when it comes to more general IQ testing.

    Sounds to me like someone's wielding what Steve would refer to as Occam's Butterknife!

    Please refer to my prior comments about East Asian economies vs Western economies. A meme popularized by Half Sigma/Lion of the Blogosphere was that high math ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    Wouldn't it make more sense to describe those disproportionately engaged in value transference as the people really taking away from others?

    Wouldn’t it make more sense to describe those disproportionately engaged in value transference as the people really taking away from others?

    sigh It takes many paragraphs to justify cheating and lieing and usually it’s with sentences like these.

    The Asian are more likely to cheat on math exams because the culture holds math in higher esteem than say being a lawyer, which it appears is a universally hated profession. :)

    At any rate, I don’t think Asians really cheat all the much because they hold their own in places/occupations where cheating on just one exam doesn’t get you very much. The real issue is that the culture of corruption, particularly theft and cheating, has prevented using that talent very effectively.

    Read More
  71. Hi says:

    In other words, East Asians are really really good at uh cheating on math tests like the SAT math, AIME, USAMO, or the likes but not as good at cheating on verbal tests like the LSAT or say the bar exams for law.

    It’s entirely possible that East Asians are better and more interested in math, and more hard-working than average, AND that they cheat on the SAT. These are not exclusive.

    Do you think the cheating industry has no aggregate effect? Have you read the Reuters stories?

    The AIME and USAMO are tiny tests at the far right of the skill distribution. They reflect to a large extent outsized interest and parental pressure (not always, but often). Such outliers don’t disprove that cheating is a factor for the masses.

    Also, even if the SAT were to stop reusing old questions and somehow eliminate all other forms of cheating, you’d still be left with the difference in tolerance to drudgery. Despite the ideal, the SAT is not entirely a measure of intelligence, but also a measure of preparation. Grades are already supposed to measure indirectly work. The SAT is supposed to measure aptitude, and it starts failing at that when one group prepares very differently from another. By the way, this argument suggests that the SAT could under-predict black and Hispanic performance if the high performers in these groups prepare less for the test than others (we don’t know that). There may be no easy solution to this problem, by the way, but I wouldn’t rush to claiming that the SAT reflects more than it does.

    Read More
  72. The broadly stable representation of blacks and Hispanics in elite colleges since 1980 and the failure in the 37 years since to replicate the relatively impressive progress that those groups made in the previous 35 years going back to 1945 dramatically raises the stakes for the SJW lobby in selling their “racism as a cause of every disparity” bill of goods. On the one hand, if people think rationally about the issue, they might conclude that (Shock! Horror!), discrimination does not represent the principal explanatory variable behind disappointing black and Hispanic performance in fields that confer high social status (i.e. not incarceration statistics) on large numbers of people (i.e. not professional music, acting or sport). On the other hand, if people can be convinced to think irrationally and through the emotional prism of wishful thinking and bitter disappointment, then the returns on harnessing black and Hispanic rage (which is really oblique embarrassment) increase dramatically.

    The SJWs have thus been left with a high-risk binary: concede your entire case and get real jobs or slip the surly bonds of reality, abjure logic, use evidence of the fundamental error of your hypothesis as prove of its truth (i.e. the Butterfield Effect) and prosper in ways you could never previously have imagined. Of course, in the past, there was a third option, namely trying to marshal the available evidence and logic in support of sensible arguments for your position. That option has gone as the evidence of the last 37 years suggests that policies of the postwar period of 1945-80 largely squeezed the lemon dry in terms of closing gaps. In this context, the SJW movement’s increasing recourse to pure fantasy is entirely to be expected. Consider the following:

    1. The first point Steve makes himself in the above post. The year 1980 represented a point in time in which the United States was decades into a long term social engineering project – i.e. 1980 was a pretty “woke” epoch when it came to the widespread acceptance of egalitarian racial orthodoxy on the part of officialdom. Therefore, the New York Times is not comparing 2017 to 1920 or 1950 or even 1970 but to a time when 80% or more of the changes in orthodoxy in respect of matters of race and colour had already happened. In other words, one is comparing 2017 (a rather politically correct year, to say the least) to 1980 (a less politically correct year than 2017 to be sure but much closer to 2017 in terms of its prevailing orthodoxies than to 1950 or 1960 and a quarter century or so after SCOTUS’s Brown decision). In other words, we should expect that to the extent that the gap existing in 1945 was due to “racism”, much of that gap should have already been eliminated by 1980 and any improvements since then ought to have been, at most, incremental and extremely modest.

    2. However, as Steve has often pointed out, prevailing SJW orthodoxy has it that the US was essentially ruled by the Klan until some time around the middle of last week, meaning that 1980 becomes as stand-in for 1950 or, for that matter, 1865 – the year doesn’t matter, only the fact that the past was BAD and the present is enlightened (albeit not enlightened enough to deliver results which are materially different from the EVIL past). However, notwithstanding the incredible recency of America’s delivery from bigotry, the SJWs don’t seem to be able to explain the fact that nobody in officialdom is prepared to explicitly contradict their worldview – surely, one would have thought, if the arc of justice had only started to bend at so recent a time, there would be lots of members of the ancien regime assailing their logic. Of course, nobody asks them to so they don’t have to.

    3. Therein lies the first paradox. If the last 37 years had worked out as they were supposed to, the rage that characterises the politics of non-white, non-Asian minorities in the 21st century wouldn’t exist and the SJW industry wouldn’t either, meaning that the SJWs must walk the tightrope of (a) maximising the failure of their pet projects in order to manufacture the rage that keeps them in business; and (b) drawing attention away from those failures so as to ensure that people don’t start objecting to their favoured policy prescription of doubling down on them. In this context, counterintuition, illogicality and almost mystical levels of excess complexity are both necessary and helpful.

    4. Of course, while 1980 was not a terribly long time ago when measured by reference to the evolution of race relations policy between the days of Lord Wilberforce and the present, it’s also a sufficiently long time ago that many of the “legacy” or “overhang” issues of the benighted past had yet to be fully expelled from the system. In 1980, colleges and universities were still being run by professors and admissions officers whose formative years had been the pre-”enlightenment” period of 1930 to 1960 and were thus too old to have internalised contemporary egalitarian mores as an unquestionable orthodoxies. Today’s colleges, by contrast, are largely controlled by the graduating classes of 1975 to 1985. Logically, therefore, prejudices or racist teachers, lecturers and admission officers, less “diverse” faculties and staffs etc. were a much GREATER problem in 1980 than in 2017.

    5. This creates an even bigger problem than 1-3 above, which is that if indubitable progress in reducing racial prejudice in the last 37 years has failed to make any material difference to the achievement gap, the logical corollary is that so called “racism” was simply never a significant explanatory variable behind that gap in the first place. If racial orthodoxy were like a product which one bought off a shelf to, say, clear up the crab grass in one’s lawn and it failed to do so, then people would consider it a failure and stop buying it and this would force the SJWs to abandon the product or take it back to the drawing board for some radical re-engineering. However, if looked at through an emotional prism, failure increases rather than diminishes demand for the product.

    6. The perception that one’s failures are a result of oppression and discrimination catalyse a dignified anger, firstly because people who genuinely fear oppression and discrimination are usually too scared of authority to become rude and obstreperous and, secondly, because people who can blame the injurious behaviour of others for their lack of conspicuous success don’t have to regard same as a reflection on themselves. Conversely, however, the less oppression and discrimination demonstrably exist, the more likely the authorities are to accept the obstreperous behaviour of society’s losers with pity and good grace and the more a person or group’s inadequacies come to be perceived as intrinsic rather than an external imposition. This makes unsuccessful non-whites (a) angrier; and (b) more likely to get away with expressing that anger in destructive and unreasonable ways.

    7. This is where a second important iSteve theme comes into play, namely a principal I have Christened: Sailer’s Law of Inverse Temporal Causality – i.e. The longer ago a prejudicial or discriminatory practice existed, the more it affects the lives of people in the present day. So, for example, blacks committed less crime (a lot less) in 1950 than they do today. However, the reason they commit crime in disproportion to their numbers today is because of slavery and Jim Crow. However, in 1950, there was still a handful of surviving freed slaves (i.e. slavery was more recent) and the Jim Crow laws were still (largely) on the books.

    8. For people whose ethnic subcultures are derived from classic Third World mysticism, characterised by a belief in (literal) magic, the thinking outlined at 7 above is not a stretch. The late Henry Harpending, for example, compared the type of beliefs that American blacks have in “systemic racism” to witch doctor type beliefs in evil spirits being cast unintentionally on long journeys overseas. When compared to classic western rationalism, believing that Tyrone held up a 7-11 because his great-great-great-great grandpa was a slave may seem nuts but it stacks up rather well relative to a belief in voodoo (Haiti) or that broccoli can cure AIDS (South Africa).

    9. Hence the power of modern racial orthodoxy as a motivator. If you are an elite black like Mark Lamont Hill or Michael Eric Dyson or one of the many affirmative action undergraduates who covet their unearned prestige and wealth, the rational component of your brain feels humiliation about how much the world has changed to your people’s liking and how pathetically little they’ve done with it, while the mystical and magical elements of the culture in which they have been raised leave you emotionally susceptible to a belief in wild conspiracies.

    10. Meanwhile, when faced with the millions of working class whites in flyover country who are either popping oxycontins or voting for Trump or both, SJWs traffic in the internalisation of yet another blatant illogic. Whilst white “privilege” explains non-white rage, they explain white rage as a product of their resentment of a future that belongs to “we the diverse” not “pale, stale, male” Americana. So which is it? Are YOU annoyed because whitey is sticking it to you, or is HE annoyed because he can’t stick it to you anymore? The answer of course is either or both, depending on the context. Today, 2 + 2 = 4 but tomorrow it might be 5.

    10. Of course, the vast majority of us either lack the qualities necessary to be a professional SJW or have better things to be doing with our lives. Again, this might be expected to weaken their ideology but, as usual, the opposite is the case. The constant contradiction and counter-intuition associated with the SJW worldview bamboozles those with sub-120 IQs. They know it’s nonsense but they can’t articulate why, which means that they either surrender and mouth the bromides or they express their incredulity in ways that allow high-IQ Koolaid drinkers to make fun of them. For people of 120+ IQs who know not only the fact that it’s nonsense but also why, the blatant illogicality of what they know they have to believe in order to avoid being Watsoned into social and professional hell is humiliating and humiliated people don’t riot and they don’t organise. Rather, they just go silent.

    Like subprime lending, I suspect that the SJW business plan will keep on working until it doesn’t.

    Read More
  73. The broadly stable representation of blacks and Hispanics in elite colleges since 1980 and the failure in the 37 years since to replicate the relatively impressive progress that those groups made in the previous 35 years going back to 1945 dramatically raises the stakes for the SJW lobby in selling their “racism as a cause of every disparity” bill of goods. On the one hand, if people think rationally about the issue, they might conclude that (Shock! Horror!), discrimination does not represent the principal explanatory variable behind disappointing black and Hispanic performance in fields that confer high social status (i.e. not incarceration statistics) on large numbers of people (i.e. not professional music, acting or sport). On the other hand, if people can be convinced to think irrationally and through the emotional prism of wishful thinking and bitter disappointment, then the returns on harnessing black and Hispanic rage (which is really oblique embarrassment) increase dramatically.

    The SJWs have thus been left with a high-risk binary: concede your entire case and get real jobs or slip the surly bonds of reality, abjure logic, use evidence of the fundamental error of your hypothesis as proof of its truth (i.e. the Butterfield Effect) and prosper in ways you could never previously have imagined. Of course, in the past, there was a third option, namely trying to marshal the available evidence and logic in support of sensible arguments for your position. That option has gone as the evidence of the last 37 years suggests that policies of the postwar period of 1945-80 largely squeezed the lemon dry in terms of closing gaps. In this context, the SJW movement’s increasing recourse to pure fantasy is entirely to be expected. Consider the following:

    1. The first point Steve makes himself in the above post. The year 1980 represented a point in time in which the United States was decades into a long term social engineering project – i.e. 1980 was a pretty “woke” epoch when it came to the widespread acceptance of egalitarian racial orthodoxy on the part of officialdom. Therefore, the New York Times is not comparing 2017 to 1920 or 1950 or even 1970 but to a time when 80% or more of the changes in orthodoxy in respect of matters of race and colour had already happened. In other words, one is comparing 2017 (a rather politically correct year, to say the least) to 1980 (a less politically correct year than 2017 to be sure but much closer to 2017 in terms of its prevailing orthodoxies than to 1950 or 1960 and a quarter century or so after SCOTUS’s Brown decision). In other words, we should expect that to the extent that the gap existing in 1945 was due to “racism”, much of that gap should have already been eliminated by 1980 and any improvements since then ought to have been, at most, incremental and extremely modest.

    2. However, as Steve has often pointed out, prevailing SJW orthodoxy has it that the US was essentially ruled by the Klan until some time around the middle of last week, meaning that 1980 becomes a stand-in for 1950 or, for that matter, 1865 – the year doesn’t matter, only the fact that the past was BAD and the present is enlightened (albeit not enlightened enough to deliver results which are materially different from the EVIL past). However, notwithstanding the incredible recency of America’s delivery from bigotry, the SJWs don’t seem to be able to explain the fact that nobody in officialdom is prepared to explicitly contradict their worldview – surely, one would have thought, if the arc of justice had only started to bend at so recent a time, there would be lots of members of the ancien regime assailing their logic. Of course, nobody asks them to so they don’t have to.

    [MORE]

    3. Therein lies the first paradox. If the last 37 years had worked out as they were supposed to, the rage that characterises the politics of non-white, non-Asian minorities in the 21st century wouldn’t exist and the SJW industry wouldn’t either, meaning that the SJWs must walk the tightrope of (a) maximising the failure of their pet projects in order to manufacture the rage that keeps them in business; and (b) drawing attention away from those failures so as to ensure that people don’t start objecting to their favoured policy prescription of doubling down on them. In this context, counterintuition, illogicality and almost mystical levels of excess complexity are both necessary and helpful.

    4. Of course, while 1980 was not a terribly long time ago when measured by reference to the evolution of race relations policy between the days of Lord Wilberforce and the present, it’s also a sufficiently long time ago that many of the “legacy” or “overhang” issues of the benighted past had yet to be fully expelled from the system. In 1980, colleges and universities were still being run by professors and admissions officers whose formative years had been the pre-”enlightenment” period of 1930 to 1960 and were thus too old to have internalised contemporary egalitarian mores as an unquestionable orthodoxies. Today’s colleges, by contrast, are largely controlled by the graduating classes of 1975 to 1985. Logically, therefore, prejudices or racist teachers, lecturers and admission officers, less “diverse” faculties and staffs etc. were a much GREATER problem in 1980 than in 2017.

    5. This creates an even bigger problem than 1-3 above, which is that if indubitable progress in reducing racial prejudice in the last 37 years has failed to make any material difference to the achievement gap, the logical corollary is that so called “racism” was simply never a significant explanatory variable behind that gap in the first place. If racial orthodoxy were like a product which one bought off a shelf to, say, clear up the crab grass in one’s lawn and it failed to do so, then people would consider it a failure and stop buying it and this would force the SJWs to abandon the product or take it back to the drawing board for some radical re-engineering. However, if looked at through an emotional prism, failure increases rather than diminishes demand for the product.

    6. The perception that one’s failures are a result of oppression and discrimination catalyse a dignified anger, firstly because people who genuinely fear oppression and discrimination are usually too scared of authority to become rude and obstreperous and, secondly, because people who can blame the injurious behaviour of others for their lack of conspicuous success don’t have to regard same as a reflection on themselves. Conversely, however, the less oppression and discrimination demonstrably exist, the more likely the authorities are to accept the obstreperous behaviour of society’s losers with pity and good grace and the more a person or group’s inadequacies come to be perceived as intrinsic rather than an external imposition. This makes unsuccessful non-whites (a) angrier; and (b) more likely to get away with expressing that anger in destructive and unreasonable ways.

    7. This is where a second important iSteve theme comes into play, namely a principal I have Christened: Sailer’s Law of Inverse Temporal Causality – i.e. The longer ago a prejudicial or discriminatory practice existed, the more it affects the lives of people in the present day. So, for example, blacks committed less crime (a lot less) in 1950 than they do today. However, the reason they commit crime in disproportion to their numbers today is because of slavery and Jim Crow. However, in 1950, there was still a handful of surviving freed slaves (i.e. slavery was more recent) and the Jim Crow laws were still (largely) on the books.

    8. For people whose ethnic subcultures are derived from classic Third World mysticism, characterised by a belief in (literal) magic, the thinking outlined at 7 above is not a stretch. The late Henry Harpending, for example, compared the type of beliefs that American blacks have in “systemic racism” to witch doctor type beliefs in evil spirits being cast unintentionally on long journeys overseas. When compared to classic western rationalism, believing that Tyrone held up a 7-11 because his great-great-great-great grandpa was a slave may seem nuts but it stacks up rather well relative to a belief in voodoo (Haiti) or that broccoli can cure AIDS (South Africa).

    9. Hence the power of modern racial orthodoxy as a motivator. If you are an elite black like Mark Lamont Hill or Michael Eric Dyson or one of the many affirmative action undergraduates who covet their unearned prestige and wealth, the rational component of your brain feels humiliation about how much the world has changed to your people’s liking and how pathetically little they’ve done with it, while the mystical and magical elements of the culture in which they have been raised leave you emotionally susceptible to a belief in wild conspiracies.

    10. Meanwhile, when faced with the millions of working class whites in flyover country who are either popping oxycontins or voting for Trump or both, SJWs traffic in the internalisation of yet another blatant illogic. Whilst white “privilege” explains non-white rage, they explain white rage as a product of their resentment of a future that belongs to “we the diverse” not “pale, stale, male” Americana. So which is it? Are YOU annoyed because whitey is sticking it to you, or is HE annoyed because he can’t stick it to you anymore? The answer of course is either or both, depending on the context. Today, 2 + 2 = 4 but tomorrow it might be 5.

    10. Of course, the vast majority of us either lack the qualities necessary to be a professional SJW or have better things to be doing with our lives. Again, this might be expected to weaken their ideology but, as usual, the opposite is the case. The constant contradiction and counter-intuition associated with the SJW worldview bamboozles those with sub-120 IQs. They know it’s nonsense but they can’t articulate why, which means that they either surrender and mouth the bromides or they express their incredulity in ways that allow high-IQ Koolaid drinkers to make fun of them. For people of 120+ IQs who know not only the fact that it’s nonsense but also why, the blatant illogicality of what they know they have to believe in order to avoid being Watsoned into social and professional hell is humiliating and humiliated people don’t riot and they don’t organise. Rather, they just go silent.

    Like subprime lending, I suspect that the SJW business plan will keep on working until it doesn’t.

    Read More
  74. Jack D says:
    @res
    I think it is an artifact of overall population changes at tails and perhaps some rounding issues. This version of the graphic (from Steve's link) looks more like you describe.

    https://i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ccf_20170201_reeves_1.png

    More discussion of the Brookings graphic from February at http://www.unz.com/isteve/brookings-race-gaps-in-sat-math-scores-are-as-big-as-ever/

    Better, but still misleading – the left tail (200-250 and 250-300) is missing, presumably because you would see two more tall bars for blacks, smaller ones for Hispanics and almost no whites or (especially) Asians. The 200-250 bar would be the taller one because it includes all the blacks who would score below 200 if such a score was possible just as the tall right Asian bar includes not only all the dudes whose real score is 750-800 but those that would get 850 or 900 if that was possible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Agreed. We had this exact conversation in the comment thread of the February post I linked. Here is a direct link to my elaboration: http://www.unz.com/isteve/brookings-race-gaps-in-sat-math-scores-are-as-big-as-ever/#comment-1754187

    Reproducing the most relevant part of that comment here:

    Nice catch. Here is a slightly different look at the data from the source referenced in the plots:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-ethnicity-2015.pdf

    I did not check rigorously (you would need to multiply the percentages by populations and then divide by total population, more math than I felt like doing), but it looks like your speculation is in the ballpark.

    At the low end Whites do best (i.e. least represented per capita, 1% 250-300, 1-% 200-250) with Asians a bit behind. Blacks are worst with 7-8% 250-300 and 3% 200-250. One interesting feature of the data is they break Hispanics into three groups: Mexican or Mexican American; Puerto Rican; Latin American, Central American, South American, or Other Latino. One thing that does is supply SAT taking student population numbers for those subgroups
     
  75. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Laugh Track

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.
     
    Perhaps I've asked this before, but what's the breakdown of who are South Asians, Southeast Asians, and East Asians? Living here in the backwaters of the US, our perceptions of them get all mixed together. Our bad, no doubt.

    You raise a good point. Several years ago, the dumb Asians (Tongans, Melanesians, Micronesians) petitioned the UC system to split them off from “Asians-Pacific Islanders” as a separate racial quota group since they have such huge intelligence and cultural deficits when compared to smarter “Asian” races such as Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans. As I remember the article was in the LA Times.

    Since the UC system discriminates against “Asian” students, generally, the dumb Asians were at a double disadvantage.

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  76. Jack D says:
    @kihowi
    Looks like the person who made that image heard that 43% of the 1% are Jewish and got it the wrong way round.

    Yes. The 1% are around 3 million so if 43% of them are Jewish (I don’t even know whether that is true), that’s a little over 1 million. 43% of the US Jewish population is more like 2.5 million. So attacking the 1% is more like attacking 20% of the Jewish population. That still leaves 80% of Jews out of the 1% (vs 99% of everyone else).

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    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for providing more realistic numbers. Do you have a citation that I can use elsewhere?

    I find myself wondering whether that graphic is a Trumpian (go ahead, correct my crime statistics for blacks) ruse.
  77. Jack D says:
    @Lot
    "I’ve often seen deltas of anywhere between 10-15 points between East Asians and whites on avg, assuming say a SD of 15."

    Do you have some examples? I do not remember seeing anything like this in the K-12 test results broken down by subject and race.

    "USAMO"

    Based on the US spelling bee I conclude south asians have an average verbal IQ of 140. Or maybe these contests cannot be used to estimate group IQ.

    Read La Griffe du Lion – if you know what % of a subgroup is in the tail, then you can work backward from the normal curve and infer the median IQ . For example, if you know that ~25% of American Nobel Prize winners are Jewish (i.e. overrepresented from the general population by a factor of ~ 10), then you can infer (with a little mathematical hocus pocus) that median Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is somewhere around 110. If it was lower, it wouldn’t be possible to have so many in the 140+ range where Nobel Prize winners are found. You could do the same with other g loaded tests.

    It seems that a lot of people here are suspicious of Asian test scores. Maybe a few people are cheating but it ain’t ALL cheating, unless you view working really hard as cheating.

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    • Replies: @Peter Johnson
    This is theoretically correct under exact normality, but keep in mind that estimating the mean or median from an extreme quantile is strongly dependent upon assumed normality of the distribution.
    , @Lot
    Cramming is not cheating.
  78. BenjaminL says:
    @Arclight
    Is it possible that the increase in Asian performance can be partially chalked up to cheating? I seem to recall that Chinese students seeking admission to US schools engages in widespread cheating to get in.
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  79. @International Jew

    Today it seems as if a huge fraction of white parents are just convinced that of course they will have to spend an extra $125k to send their kids to a private college in another state instead of to a public college that they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars their whole lives.
     
    Yep, I see this a lot. In fact, they often send their kids to another state's state school! That means paying way more money for no more quality. And these are often people who will really miss that money when they retire.

    Well you can include these parents in that stat. We looked at UC Berkeley and Davis, and they were crowded and gross. Gross like homeless people all around. Plus, the student who conducted the campus tour at Berkeley was some sort of lesbian communist. My son was thoroughly turned off.

    Cal Poly is a beautiful campus, but it’s just so crowded. Why be a number in a huge machine when you can get personal attention and mentoring in a small institution? The smaller, elite, private CA schools didn’t accept him so it’s off to AZ for college. The cost really isn’t that different for us.

    the state schools, like Sac State, Fresno State, are full of students who aren’t taking it seriously. Some are, but many are working full/part time and drifting in and out of majors and semesters. My old guitar teacher was majoring in music at Sac State and then decided to switch to computer science. He was essentially a student throughout his twenties.

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  80. @Jack D
    Read La Griffe du Lion - if you know what % of a subgroup is in the tail, then you can work backward from the normal curve and infer the median IQ . For example, if you know that ~25% of American Nobel Prize winners are Jewish (i.e. overrepresented from the general population by a factor of ~ 10), then you can infer (with a little mathematical hocus pocus) that median Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is somewhere around 110. If it was lower, it wouldn't be possible to have so many in the 140+ range where Nobel Prize winners are found. You could do the same with other g loaded tests.

    It seems that a lot of people here are suspicious of Asian test scores. Maybe a few people are cheating but it ain't ALL cheating, unless you view working really hard as cheating.

    This is theoretically correct under exact normality, but keep in mind that estimating the mean or median from an extreme quantile is strongly dependent upon assumed normality of the distribution.

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  81. @Anonymous
    The elaborate AA regime is just the urban policy wonk version of Get Whitey.

    There are zero non-white countries in the world that allow this nonsense. But incoherent jackass Trump loves AA: "I love affirmative action."

    Dear Draft Dodger POTUS: Can we get some AA in the casualties in Afghanistan? How's the Asian, Hispanic, black representation in that category.

    According to Thomas Sowell, it’s actually a relatively common response to differing outcomes in non-white countries too. See “Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study” by Sowell.

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  82. @Steve Sailer
    Seems implausible.

    Rest assured that is not an ad by a Jewish org. That’s alt-right trolling.

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    • Replies: @El Dato
    Definitely we live in the post-Onion Singularity times.
    , @dcite
    If it were a true ANTIFA (or similar org) funded the baby wouldn't be so cute. It would look more like that creature that sings "I'm the baby gotta love me" and hits the dad with a frying pan;
    ANTIFA is part of psychological warfare. You have look carefully to discern parody from actual attempts at influence, but the difference is there.
  83. Comms says:
    @Olorin

    Even after decades of affirmative action, black and Hispanic students are more underrepresented at the nation’s top colleges and universities than they were 35 years ago, according to a New York Times analysis.
     
    I figure this bashing on by the NYT trio is just a distraction from another trend.

    Discussed at length in the past by both our host, and our host's host.

    http://imgur.com/TzDOsKi
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

    Admissions offices are underexamined contributors to the distribution of ethnicities and other groupings. Staff and management in those offices perform gatekeeper, or thumb on the scale roles. Look out for number one is the motto. Call around, get organization charts, see who controls the decisions and you will find out where undisclosed soft power resides.

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    • Replies: @Olorin
    Also given the soft nature of the job, admissions--like HR in the corporate or NGO or public or ed sectors--is where a lot of AA hiring happens.

    If the person in charge of admissions or HR has certain group interests, and chooses to hire those who pose no real threat to their power owing to let's politely say Lower Capacities, or low pay that will lead them to move to another job soon, that is a path for admissions managers to build a mini-empire within the institution as surely as if they'd hired only like-minded types.

    Or in the next institution one works for: consider the rapid rise of concerns about "transgender admissions and retention." Get a few tranny-student scalps in a not-very-impressive admissions management job, and your attraction/retention numbers are money in the bank when you apply for a better job elsewhere. There's always some new social engineering fashion to master for profit.

    But admissions units also take direct orders from top admin, Comms.

    Look out for number one is the motto.
     

    Accurate IME. These days "admission and enrollment management" is considered its own field in the Ed Biz:

    https://www.nacacnet.org/news--publications/Research/career-paths-for-admission-officers-a-survey-report/

    "Undisclosed soft power"--that's a precise and useful term for what the "second wave feminists" used to call their project of getting inside institutions and changing them via influence that is difficult to document...and harder still to point to and root out for anyone but those with massive power in the institution (board, president, president's front-office staff).

    Whether it's sleeping your way to a job (sex/mates), getting in by whatever means and squatting the position (territory), or adoption of the latest fashion in top-down social engineering with money pools behind it (resources), that "soft power" has very real evolutionary roots and consequences.

    Still, top-down, financialized/monetarized corporate, government, and plutocrat ("foundation") power players issue many of the marching orders that an institution's president/top officers implement. Those agents of the institution are hired precisely on their promises to deliver what the boards and funding agents want to achieve. That gets passed down the line administratively.

    At public colleges and universities, I've watched my entire adult life (often up close) as the funding base has been systematically shifted out of the public's hands. So we are taxed heavily to support public education that is occupied by people hostile to us who build careers on that animus.

  84. ColRebSez says: • Website

    The NYT apparently has a minimum percentile of two percent. Their graph understates just how huge the test-score gap is.

    The ACT has stopped making scores broken down by ethnicity easily available, and it’s hard to find the old documents with a Google search. But here are links to the 2013 ACT scores:

    National: http://www.act.org/content/dam/act/unsecured/documents/Natl-Scores-2013-National2013.pdf

    Asians: https://forms.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/pdf/profile/Asian.pdf

    Blacks: https://forms.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/pdf/profile/AfricanAmerican.pdf

    The 98th percentile nationally for 2013 was 32. For Asians it was 34. For blacks it was 27. In 2013 239,598 blacks took the ACT versus 71,677 Asians. 475 blacks made a score of 32 or higher and 31 made a 35 or 36. For Asians, 7,508 made a score of 32 or higher and 1,486 made a score of 35 or 36. If “diversity” means anything close to proportional representation, the only way to achieve it is to discriminate pretty harshly against Asians.

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    • Replies: @Ed
    They're available they just want people to pay for them. Several states have pretty good education data states that parse SAT/ACT test scores at state, county, district and city level.

    Michigan comes to mind. Georgia too.
  85. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Lot
    Harvard should just eliminate the catagory of international in its student race data and count them in with the Americans. Suddenly the Asian share would go way up and appease the Unz/Hsu/Twinkie "Harvad Unfair to Asian!" brigade. With a gazillion people in Africa and Latin America to choose from, they can also admit the expected 22% or whatever black/hispanic quota without lowering standards so much. And really, elite white or whitish South Americans are a lot cooler to have as classmates than Chuy el Chubby Chicano de Chicago.

    I would be very wary of sending a kid to a college with the idea of picking up a South American white mate. The elite families anywhere south of the Rio Grande tend to be intermingled with local mafias to a degree that’s absolutely appalling. Even if the elites aren’t criminals themselves, they have too many criminal friends and associates.

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  86. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @International Jew

    Today it seems as if a huge fraction of white parents are just convinced that of course they will have to spend an extra $125k to send their kids to a private college in another state instead of to a public college that they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars their whole lives.
     
    Yep, I see this a lot. In fact, they often send their kids to another state's state school! That means paying way more money for no more quality. And these are often people who will really miss that money when they retire.

    Parents may be counting on selling their 1 million dollar house (originally bought for 300K) and using the profit to retire to a cheaper state.

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  87. Moses says:
    @Yan Shen
    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn't primarily due to HBD? (Let's ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)

    In other words, East Asians are really really good at uh cheating on math tests like the SAT math, AIME, USAMO, or the likes but not as good at cheating on verbal tests like the LSAT or say the bar exams for law.

    And it's entirely coincidental that the kinds of admissions tests they're more proficient at cheating on versus less proficient at cheating on also seems to be reflected in the psychometric literature when it comes to more general IQ testing.

    Sounds to me like someone's wielding what Steve would refer to as Occam's Butterknife!

    Please refer to my prior comments about East Asian economies vs Western economies. A meme popularized by Half Sigma/Lion of the Blogosphere was that high math ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    Wouldn't it make more sense to describe those disproportionately engaged in value transference as the people really taking away from others?

    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn’t primarily due to HBD? (Let’s ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)

    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-European gap on something like, oh I dunno, every single technological and business innovation of the last 500 years isn’t primarily due to HBD?

    Euros invent. Asians copy. HBD.

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    It's an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that's not the issue I'm addressing here.

    We're talking about modern day. It's clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they're vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference. You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside. East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc. This pattern has been noted by many people. Eamonn Fingleton for instance has long been writing about this fact.

    The idea that East Asians are "copying" doesn't really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn't a particular great engineer. In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple's products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let's call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple's products in the marketplace. In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc.

    , @Krastos the Gluemaker
    No, vague racist assertions are not the whole story, but there are a few more things everybody ignores (due to being really bad at the logic and statistics, imo) and could be elaborated on.

    Besides self-selection, one notable factor for the SAT family of standardized tests is that students take the test different numbers of times, and because it's (at least in part, and 100% sometimes or in some sections or in the past) a multiple choice test there is random noise in the results produced. Well, testing can produce essentially random variance anyway, but literally millions of students deliberately guess at multiple choice questions, as everyone knows.

    Not only do different races and genders have different rates of taking the test, but each demographic bin probably has statistically significant (and meaningful) differences. White males, white females, Asian males, Asian females, etc. each take these tests different numbers of times on average.

    Class bias is actually huge here too, it's not just biological demographic distinctions and (poor) Hispanics and blacks that are disadvantaged. Though none of their advocates ever seem to know enough to figure this out and argue this, I will.

    Here's some examples:

    Student A takes the SAT 5 times, scoring on two sections, Math+Verbal/Reading/whatever you call it:
    730, 680
    760, 650
    740, 690
    800, 670
    750, 710

    Student B takes the SAT once, scoring
    750, 750

    These could be any races, but let's say Student B was a poor rural white student, and Student A was Asian, and anyhow, the scores as reported by a college or averaged into large national reports or whatever show Student A has a 1510 total SAT and Student B has a 1500 total.

    Without the raw data or many many more summary statistics it's impossible to really know for sure how situations like the above affect broad, rounded off reports and averages.

    Also, there are situations like this:

    Middle-class Mary takes the SAT as a freshman, for some reason, scores 550/550. She decides she doesn't like the SAT and never takes it again, taking the ACT some nonzero number of times and eventually reporting an ACT score of 30 to colleges. Her SAT score, however, is recorded in databases and totaled and averaged into whatever counts.

    There are tens of thousands of cases each year corresponding to all of the above situations; it's not a simple problem to correct for and none of the raw data on things like this are ever released, but we can guarantee different races/genders/poor/rich do self-select into test taking at different rates.

    Given that poor blacks and Hispanics are marginally disadvantaged by all such situations and behavior, and the class bias in general, there is a politically correct angle to take a look at all this. It does mean that small differences in averages or lumpy counts (even forgetting again that we can't sort out citizens/noncitizens from public data and such) shouldn't be treated as that big of a deal.

    Also why for purposes of validity in discussions like these, tests like the AP tests which students take only once are valuable to consider.
  88. Lot says:
    @Jack D
    Read La Griffe du Lion - if you know what % of a subgroup is in the tail, then you can work backward from the normal curve and infer the median IQ . For example, if you know that ~25% of American Nobel Prize winners are Jewish (i.e. overrepresented from the general population by a factor of ~ 10), then you can infer (with a little mathematical hocus pocus) that median Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is somewhere around 110. If it was lower, it wouldn't be possible to have so many in the 140+ range where Nobel Prize winners are found. You could do the same with other g loaded tests.

    It seems that a lot of people here are suspicious of Asian test scores. Maybe a few people are cheating but it ain't ALL cheating, unless you view working really hard as cheating.

    Cramming is not cheating.

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    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    Memorizing is not learning.
    , @L Woods
    For the verbal portions, it almost is, in spirit.
  89. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    This was supposed to be the year that innocent youth Trayvon Martin was to graduate so supposedly some college gave his parents a posthumous degree in his name. Not sure how that diploma factors in to overall black graduation from US colleges.


    “1980″ sounds like the Dark Ages to them."

    Anything pre-Internet will do. Back in the days of no running water, few flush toilets, and no internet. Or pre-'93, the start of Bill Clinton's first term (first black president).

    Also, hasn't CA's total white population been declining because of people leaving the state? Stands to reason that fewer white CA residents = fewer white CA students in the state university system.

    You’re not kidding about the “Dark Ages”. I was watching someone live-stream a city-builder and he gave his citizens “Free Wi-fi”, when the game calendar read “1994″. Several people jumped into chat to claim “Wi-fi didn’t exist in 1994″. Actually, it did.

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  90. res says:
    @Jack D
    Better, but still misleading - the left tail (200-250 and 250-300) is missing, presumably because you would see two more tall bars for blacks, smaller ones for Hispanics and almost no whites or (especially) Asians. The 200-250 bar would be the taller one because it includes all the blacks who would score below 200 if such a score was possible just as the tall right Asian bar includes not only all the dudes whose real score is 750-800 but those that would get 850 or 900 if that was possible.

    Agreed. We had this exact conversation in the comment thread of the February post I linked. Here is a direct link to my elaboration: http://www.unz.com/isteve/brookings-race-gaps-in-sat-math-scores-are-as-big-as-ever/#comment-1754187

    Reproducing the most relevant part of that comment here:

    Nice catch. Here is a slightly different look at the data from the source referenced in the plots:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-ethnicity-2015.pdf

    I did not check rigorously (you would need to multiply the percentages by populations and then divide by total population, more math than I felt like doing), but it looks like your speculation is in the ballpark.

    At the low end Whites do best (i.e. least represented per capita, 1% 250-300, 1-% 200-250) with Asians a bit behind. Blacks are worst with 7-8% 250-300 and 3% 200-250. One interesting feature of the data is they break Hispanics into three groups: Mexican or Mexican American; Puerto Rican; Latin American, Central American, South American, or Other Latino. One thing that does is supply SAT taking student population numbers for those subgroups

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  91. res says:
    @Jack D
    Yes. The 1% are around 3 million so if 43% of them are Jewish (I don't even know whether that is true), that's a little over 1 million. 43% of the US Jewish population is more like 2.5 million. So attacking the 1% is more like attacking 20% of the Jewish population. That still leaves 80% of Jews out of the 1% (vs 99% of everyone else).

    Thanks for providing more realistic numbers. Do you have a citation that I can use elsewhere?

    I find myself wondering whether that graphic is a Trumpian (go ahead, correct my crime statistics for blacks) ruse.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    The 1% = 1% of US population of 325M = 3.25M

    US Jews, roughly 6 million.

    Source: Wikipedia

    The rest is just simple math.
  92. 3g4me says:
    @Yan Shen

    They’ll just keep following and taking from us forever. Something has to be done about this.
     
    Seems like the only thing that can be done, unless we want to endorse pogroms against market dominant minorities, is to reduce the delta on something like the SAT math.

    I'm also in favor of reducing immigration in general, but I suspect that's not all that you have in mind.

    @ 1-1000 Always and Eternal Yan Shen: When you establish your primarily Han genius ethnostate, we’ll all congratulate you on your foresight and success. Oh wait, there are already a number of Han ethnostates, yet for some unknown reason all that Han innate genius only seems to flower among White European Christian civilization. Funny, that.

    What you may have in mind doesn’t particularly matter, since America is not your country and Americans are certainly not your people. Your incessant crowing about purported Asian intellectual superiority (ever present in your comments at other sites prior to your banning as a pain in the ass) exhibits a certain astounding lack of self-awareness, to use something another commenter here remarked about Jack D – another example of a proud “market-dominant minority.”

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    • Replies: @Jack D

    Han innate genius only seems to flower among White European Christian civilization
     
    I guess you haven't visited Singapore lately, or HK or Shanghai, etc.

    The Chinese had a civilization back when Europeans were still living in caves.
  93. @27 year old
    Can we ban Asian commenters from these types of threads?

    Asians cheat on tests. Everyone knows it.

    Someone needs to do an exhaustive analysis of the racial/ethnic composition of the iSteve commentariat.

    I’m a goy, but I’ve spent most of my life in the Jewier corners of Latin Miami. As such, I’ve never known what it’s like to be surrounded by “my people.” (I have some relatives down here, but we’re not on speaking terms. The only family I have is my mother.)

    My Minnesota-born father’s folks were both second-generation Nordic immigrants; some of my mother’s Scottish forebears came to America in colonial times.

    Now, here’s my deep, dark secret: I have a non-trivial chunk of Native ancestry – as in, I have second (or is it third?) cousins who live or have lived on a reservation. (Yes, some of them are drunks.) I have been to said reservation. It does not have a casino, being in a state where airports have (legal) slot machines right at the gates.

    I have drunk deeply from the well of multigenerational suffering. (But I’ve never touched the firewater.)

    So I’m less than 100% white. (I take after my tall, fair father, so I *look* 100% white.) What I lose in Nazi racial-purity cred, I gain in this-is-my-land-immigrants-go-away cred. I also get to claim (truthfully) that I am descended from tribal chieftains.

    A little ethnic kink never hurt anybody, right?

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  94. 3g4me says:
    @International Jew

    Today it seems as if a huge fraction of white parents are just convinced that of course they will have to spend an extra $125k to send their kids to a private college in another state instead of to a public college that they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars their whole lives.
     
    Yep, I see this a lot. In fact, they often send their kids to another state's state school! That means paying way more money for no more quality. And these are often people who will really miss that money when they retire.

    @43 International Jew: Just as Steve noted Whites don’t seem to breed well in captivity, neither do they flourish when constantly prodded by others who want to overwhelm them and then claim to be them.
    Gee, it almost seems as though many White parents are willing to pay ruinous $ to ensure their kids experience, somewhere and sometime, a White environment – particularly where assortative mating is concerned. Then, there are those of us who attended “elite” institutions ourselves who are unwilling to throw our children to the diversity mob and thus eschew college for our offspring altogether.

    It’s almost as though DNA matters. Who’dathunkit?

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  95. 3g4me says:
    @Yan Shen
    A follow-up to my comments in this thread and partly in response to other comments I'm skimming in different threads. The fact of the matter is, complaining about Asian Americans or immigrant Asians disproportionately dominating academics in the United States doesn't solve the entirety of the problem.

    Adopting a mentality of insularity and ethno-nationalism doesn't change the fact that we live in a globalized economy. Remember when Japan bashing in the United States was in vogue during the 1980s and early 1990s, when Japan supposedly put a dent in the US automobile and consumer electronics industries? And you had Michael Crichton's novel Rising Sun that somewhat bizarrely read like it could've been titled the The Protocols of the Elders of Tokyo?

    The world's never been more interconnected, whether economically or scientifically. You're never shielded from competition just because you've hiding in some ethnic enclave. So complaining doesn't really solve anything.

    At the end of the day, the question is, who are the value creators in society?

    @51 Yan Shen: “At the end of the day, the question is, who are the value creators in society?”

    Yet somehow you can never answer the question “Then why are you all here, and not at home among your own so very superior people and culture?”

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    There are 5 million Chinese in the US and something like 1380 million Chinese in mainland China. By my estimates there are maybe around 10 million Chinese total living in Western nations. The idea that East Asians or even Chinese Americans specifically are "all here" is statistical laughable, but I agree that sometimes it may feel that way due to the disproportionate academic dominance of East Asian Americans!
  96. Marty T says:
    @Anonymous
    And what's the attrition rate at the top schools for Jews and then also non-Jewish whites?

    Asian over-representation is not impacting blacks/Hispanics all that much according to this data... so whitey is taking the big hit, right?

    Also, massive Asian over-representation was apparently not enough to create an aura of prestige at UC Irvine. Even though it's a great area as opposed to USC. Funny/Not Funny how Asians lag in prestige.

    If we continue with mass Asian immigration our top schools will have all the prestige of Asia. Which is to say not very much.

    Asians are not prestigious, which is why the Ivies limit their enrollment (though they are still overrepresented).

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  97. Yan Shen says:
    @Moses

    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn’t primarily due to HBD? (Let’s ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)
     
    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-European gap on something like, oh I dunno, every single technological and business innovation of the last 500 years isn't primarily due to HBD?

    Euros invent. Asians copy. HBD.

    It’s an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that’s not the issue I’m addressing here.

    We’re talking about modern day. It’s clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they’re vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference. You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside. East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc. This pattern has been noted by many people. Eamonn Fingleton for instance has long been writing about this fact.

    The idea that East Asians are “copying” doesn’t really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn’t a particular great engineer. In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple’s products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let’s call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple’s products in the marketplace. In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jim jones
    The CEO of Samsung has just been given a five year jail sentence for bribery
    , @Desiderius

    It’s an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years
     
    We're currently experiencing what y'all went through in the late Ming, except our eunuchs are LGBT.
    , @Moses

    It’s an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that’s not the issue I’m addressing here.
     
    "That's not the issue I'm addressing here" = I don't want to talk about the fact that Asians invented nothing in the last 500 years.

    We’re talking about modern day.
     
    Yes. The modern day where Asian economic growth is built entirely on top of European innovations. Nice sidestep by the way.

    It’s clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they’re vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

     

    Yes. Certainly Asians skew towards the technical. That's because their population mean for imagining and creating is far to the left of Euros.

    According to you, "value creation activities" are only technical. Imagination got nuttin' to do with it -- just engineers figuring out how to make smaller, cheaper widgets -- the stuff that great nations are made of.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

     

    LOL. Only high processing power for math creates value. Anything else is shysterism. Got it.

    You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside.

     

    Erm, "California tech" is all software and creativity -- Paypal, Google, Linkedin, AirBNB. "Economies of East Asia" is using cheap labor to crank out tinier and tinier gadgets designed in California by Euros.

    East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc.

     

    I repeat -- following instructions from Euros to build widgets is the only activity that creates value. Conceiving, designing and building business models around those widgets is nothing more than value transference. The Euros add nothing.

    The idea that East Asians are “copying” doesn’t really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

     

    Another sidestep. Show me one, just one, technological or business innovation from Asia that is extensively used in modern industry or society. Vaunted mathematical ability?

    Show me one mathematical breakthrough from an Asian in the past 500 years. For each one you find (if you can find even one) I'll show you 50 from Europeans. "High mathematical ability" indeed. I could say the same about a spreadsheet.

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

     

    Right. Steve Jobs created nothing. Revolutionizing the music, computer and mobile phone industries. Making massive value-creating business models like Uber (copied by the Chinese immediately) possible.

    Only the nerdy technical guys who figured out how to build what Jobs told them to had value. Again, got it.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn’t a particular great engineer.

     

    Right. And which man has had a greater transformative impact on modern society? The engineer (Gates) or the creative visionary (Jobs)? Rhetorical.

    In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple’s products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let’s call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple’s products in the marketplace.
     
    Translation: The widget makers are the real heroes and value creators here! Jobs did nothing. A shyster at best (typed on Yan Shen's smartphone, an irony-free zone).

    In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc
     
    Everyone knows that innovation is purely about incremental widget improvements, at which Asians excel. Building widgets conceived and designed by Europeans is "real innovation." Aseans are so good at it that the all scientific and engineering progress underlying all these widgets came from Europeans.
  98. Yan Shen says:
    @3g4me
    @51 Yan Shen: "At the end of the day, the question is, who are the value creators in society?"

    Yet somehow you can never answer the question "Then why are you all here, and not at home among your own so very superior people and culture?"

    There are 5 million Chinese in the US and something like 1380 million Chinese in mainland China. By my estimates there are maybe around 10 million Chinese total living in Western nations. The idea that East Asians or even Chinese Americans specifically are “all here” is statistical laughable, but I agree that sometimes it may feel that way due to the disproportionate academic dominance of East Asian Americans!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Moses
    Asian academic ability and intelligence are so awesome they have been unable to create world class universities in their own countries. Instead they flock to Western universities to learn.

    Oh, the irony.
  99. All the OC white kids go to Chapman University now, which has been good for Chapman. Its US News ranking has skyrocketed and its film school now plays Cornell to UCLA and USC’s Harvard (which isn’t a slight).

    Among my white friends, many indeed went to private schools but made up for it by commuting rather than living on campus. It’s still more $$ than attending a UC, but if you factor in room and board and the generous aid that places like Chapman, Loyola Marymount, or Pepperdine give their middle class students, the difference in cost wasn’t ungodly. (Full tuition and room/board at a UC = $33k per year, while tuition without room/board at a private school generally falls around $40k per year after aid.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A film school in a plausible location is a good way to boost your college's name recognition, since film people get interviewed more than just about anybody except athletes.
  100. Does any of this take into account the steep upgrading curve of SAT’s that started after 1995? Artificially inflating all scores by hundreds of points (such as a 1400 in 1992 is equivalent to a 1600 in 2002). Maybe all the stats even out (doubtful) but at the least you would think elevating the curve and flattening high end results would much with things. At any rate, I’m not sure there’s any point in comparing SAT scores with previous years since they started dumbing down the outcomes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Unsilenced Science's charts of the SAT start after the 1995 recentering.
  101. I thought they announced this year that less than half of Harvard incoming are white? That hasn’t helped blacks at all?

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  102. @Seth Largo
    All the OC white kids go to Chapman University now, which has been good for Chapman. Its US News ranking has skyrocketed and its film school now plays Cornell to UCLA and USC's Harvard (which isn't a slight).

    Among my white friends, many indeed went to private schools but made up for it by commuting rather than living on campus. It's still more $$ than attending a UC, but if you factor in room and board and the generous aid that places like Chapman, Loyola Marymount, or Pepperdine give their middle class students, the difference in cost wasn't ungodly. (Full tuition and room/board at a UC = $33k per year, while tuition without room/board at a private school generally falls around $40k per year after aid.)

    A film school in a plausible location is a good way to boost your college’s name recognition, since film people get interviewed more than just about anybody except athletes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    The Duffer Brothers' success with Stranger Things is going to do much more to raise Chapman's profile than anything done by that famous physicist guy they brought in a few years ago (who of course just wanted to retire in Orange County, not continue to do famous physicist research).
  103. @Pansophic_Gothi
    Does any of this take into account the steep upgrading curve of SAT's that started after 1995? Artificially inflating all scores by hundreds of points (such as a 1400 in 1992 is equivalent to a 1600 in 2002). Maybe all the stats even out (doubtful) but at the least you would think elevating the curve and flattening high end results would much with things. At any rate, I'm not sure there's any point in comparing SAT scores with previous years since they started dumbing down the outcomes.

    Unsilenced Science’s charts of the SAT start after the 1995 recentering.

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  104. 3g4me says:

    @102 Yan Shen: Oooh, a rhetorical kill shot? I bow my head in deep shame at my unworthiness. Thing is Yan, what you don’t get – what you’ll never get – is that when all is said and done you’re still a Han larping as an American. You know it and I know it. Your children will still be Han larping as Americans.

    Oh, and pro-tip – it’s not really a contest if one side has already opted out. But enjoy your crowing. I realize it’s all you really have.

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  105. @Steve Sailer
    A film school in a plausible location is a good way to boost your college's name recognition, since film people get interviewed more than just about anybody except athletes.

    The Duffer Brothers’ success with Stranger Things is going to do much more to raise Chapman’s profile than anything done by that famous physicist guy they brought in a few years ago (who of course just wanted to retire in Orange County, not continue to do famous physicist research).

    Read More
  106. Lagertha says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Caitlin Flanagan wrote in The Atlantic in 2001 about how when she was a college counselor at Harvard-Westlake in the Hollywood Hills about how rich parents would come to her desperate about getting their kid into some second tier Eastern college. She'd ask and find out that dad, who was making mid-six figures, usually had gone to UCLA.

    Just a theory: I think that UCLA dad wants daughter to mingle with students from the right class. Colleges considered by many to be 2nd or 3rd tier aren’t that, anymore to parents and students, as long as the majority of the kids are upper middle class. I can think of 50 colleges in New England that are easy to get into for a very intelligent HS kid, and they are applying to these in droves – so the school becomes more selective. Example: Hobart William Smith, Union, Northeastern, Endicott, Villanova, Providence, Roger Williams (great location), Bentley. Out west, midwest, & south: U of Denver, Marquette, Gettysburg, Baylor, SMU, Hendrix, Rhodes, Roanoke, James Madison, George Mason, Elon, High Point, Furman, Wake Forest, Wofford, College of Charleston, Clemson, many more.

    Virtually all of these colleges have rather steep tuition (or high OOS for public ones), but they are very generous towards top 5% SAT scorers. This fact is now royally ticking off elite U’s because they don’t think that is fair to give merit money to “rich kids”- kid you not! They feel that the lesser U’s should only give money to poor students. I always find this so hypocritical since it is a well known fact that legacies and multi millionaires’ kids, many that are just sketchy or average academically, always get accepted. Yet, they don’t fill their elite campuses up with many poor urban (hardly ever, rural) kids. They definitely favor majority wealthy students.

    Non-elite U’s figured out what works: give money to top 5% students, and fill your school up with students whose parents want them to mingle with other wealthy, well-adjusted very good students; result: college stays viable with full-freight paying students, thus becomes more selective every year. It is sort of brilliant. And, like I said, increasingly, if you are studying something like chemistry at Villanova, you will be in competition with Ivy Leagues grads, but, you may have no debt as you begin your first job…and, you had an absolute blast with the tons of friends you made.

    Here is a weird fact: kids are very unhappy at the Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, etc….many feel lonely; they’re surrounded by deeply dissatisfied, offended by something kids, and many find the work too hard. So, many kids want to go to these other U’s that have grown in reputation for being full of fun, happy, well-adjusted people. And, parents want the safety and peace of mind from a campus full of normies. Parents and students are alarmed with all the protests, violence, screaming at white kids about white privilege, canceling classes for some consciousness raising event, the cognitive dissonance.

    White kids are not accepted like they once were, into the elite U’s, anyway, despite being in the top 3% academically…and I’ve griped about this before. If you have a hook (being an All-State-All-American in crew, or something) you get in. So, being with ambitious kids at a school which was perceived to be lower tier, is just fine. Perhaps it’s a better place to meet more people who will be in the 1-2% earning power bracket, eventually, anyway. Fathers of daughters especially, want to launch their kid into a sea of appropriate suitors…upping their daughter’s chances of finding a mate before the corporate ladder.

    Second and third tier Universities/colleges have come to represent a sort of a club where your child can mingle with their socio-economic piers without the threat of protests, grievance collector hysteria, or being screamed at, threatened for being privileged (Dartmouth, Berkeley, etc.). It’s almost very 1950′s on some of these campuses….especially during football games. In other words, private colleges are increasingly full of students from the top 5 % of socio-economic group anyway, despite the push for diversity, there is little or no diversity of class. I started noticing that students really do just want to simply study, have fun, make friends, get a job, get a boyfriend or girlfriend…and be happy in college. Parents, who will pay mega-bucks, don’t want the hassles of today’s elite U’s zeitgeist. Pretty soon Berkeley will yield less innovators/super stars and become a joke school full of misanthropes.

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  107. Winston says:

    Most discussions about affirmative action miss the real point. AA is not about racial preference or social justice/injustice but rather about social harmony. If the US doesn’t want continued racial wars and want to remain as a republic, the achievement gap between different racial groups has to be controlled to a certain degree. The problem is that the current form of AA doesn’t seem to work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    In Woody Allen's Bananas , the mad Castro type dictator decrees:

    "All children under 16 years old... are now 16 years old."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV4N2dk0cMk

    Closing the achievement gap is like that. Just because the government decrees something to be true doesn't make it true. "Closing the achievement gap" is like filling a leaky bucket. As long as the government keeps pouring massive transfer payments into black and Hispanic communities, they can give blacks the appearance of living a middle class white life. But the moment the massive government support goes away (not just outright welfare but the whole framework of government interventions) it all goes to hell like some African colony returned to the bush.

    Current AA doesn't work because it can never work any more than Communism could ever work. No matter how you disguise it or rename it or reform it , it's not going to change reality. Facts are stubborn things.

  108. Ed says:
    @ColRebSez
    The NYT apparently has a minimum percentile of two percent. Their graph understates just how huge the test-score gap is.

    The ACT has stopped making scores broken down by ethnicity easily available, and it's hard to find the old documents with a Google search. But here are links to the 2013 ACT scores:

    National: http://www.act.org/content/dam/act/unsecured/documents/Natl-Scores-2013-National2013.pdf

    Asians: https://forms.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/pdf/profile/Asian.pdf

    Blacks: https://forms.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/pdf/profile/AfricanAmerican.pdf

    The 98th percentile nationally for 2013 was 32. For Asians it was 34. For blacks it was 27. In 2013 239,598 blacks took the ACT versus 71,677 Asians. 475 blacks made a score of 32 or higher and 31 made a 35 or 36. For Asians, 7,508 made a score of 32 or higher and 1,486 made a score of 35 or 36. If "diversity" means anything close to proportional representation, the only way to achieve it is to discriminate pretty harshly against Asians.

    They’re available they just want people to pay for them. Several states have pretty good education data states that parse SAT/ACT test scores at state, county, district and city level.

    Michigan comes to mind. Georgia too.

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  109. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    So I was at the orientation for one of these “Other Top Universities” the other day and one of the student speakers at the big assembly was a girl from who took a gap year in Israel, and was a gender and sexuality studies major, and was “interested in the intersection of farming and gender” (or something like that). I was looking around to see if it registered with anyone else, but it seems like I was the only one who got the joke. What goes unsaid often times goes unthought…

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  110. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    I dunno.

    Here's a recent UCI press release:


    UCI meets U.S. Department of Education eligibility as a Hispanic-serving institution
    Latino enrollment reaches 25.7 percent, reflecting campus commitment to diversity

    ON MAY 22, 2017
    Irvine, Calif., May 22, 2017 — The U.S. Department of Education has named the University of California, Irvine a Hispanic-serving institution for 2017-18, meaning that fully one-quarter of undergraduates identify as Latino and that half of all students receive financial aid.

    The designation builds on UCI’s recognition earlier this year as an Asian American and Native American Pacific Islander-serving institution, demonstrating the university’s dedication to providing a world-class education to every qualified student.

    HSI and AANAPISI are part of a federal program to help universities support first-generation and low-income students. They increase UCI’s eligibility for funding and grants from the departments of Education, Agriculture and Housing & Urban Development that can be used for a variety of purposes: to boost financial aid and other student services, to purchase scientific and laboratory equipment, for faculty development and to improve classrooms.


    “This milestone validates our commitment to diversity and aligns with our aspiration to be a national leader and global model of inclusive excellence,” said UCI Chancellor Howard Gillman. “This program enables UCI to serve as an engine of social mobility for all Californians and empowers us to create a more brilliant future for everyone in the state.”

    UCI’s current Hispanic enrollment is 25.7 percent, double what it was a decade ago, and the campus received more Chicano/Latino freshman applications for the 2017-18 academic year (23,463) than any other UC school.
     
    Maybe when the economy collapsed UCI decided to pursue federal funds for being heavily Hispanic?

    Seems like a really bad marketing decision, though.

    That seems to be a recurring cultural theme, Southern Californians heading east for college. Off the top of my head: Less Than Zero, Better Luck Tomorrow, Superbad.

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  111. jim jones says:
    @Yan Shen
    It's an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that's not the issue I'm addressing here.

    We're talking about modern day. It's clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they're vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference. You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside. East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc. This pattern has been noted by many people. Eamonn Fingleton for instance has long been writing about this fact.

    The idea that East Asians are "copying" doesn't really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn't a particular great engineer. In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple's products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let's call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple's products in the marketplace. In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc.

    The CEO of Samsung has just been given a five year jail sentence for bribery

    Read More
  112. @jim jones
    The CEO of Samsung has just been given a five year jail sentence for bribery

    That doesn’t happen in the U.S. much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Comms
    Lack of bribery convictions may indicate overburdened courts, craftier lawyers, different crimes to pursue, or not pursue (see entries for Holder, Eric), or American ingenuity in better crime and policy widgets.
  113. @Yan Shen
    It's an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that's not the issue I'm addressing here.

    We're talking about modern day. It's clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they're vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference. You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside. East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc. This pattern has been noted by many people. Eamonn Fingleton for instance has long been writing about this fact.

    The idea that East Asians are "copying" doesn't really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn't a particular great engineer. In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple's products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let's call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple's products in the marketplace. In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc.

    It’s an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years

    We’re currently experiencing what y’all went through in the late Ming, except our eunuchs are LGBT.

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  114. Moses says:
    @Yan Shen
    It's an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that's not the issue I'm addressing here.

    We're talking about modern day. It's clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they're vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference. You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside. East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc. This pattern has been noted by many people. Eamonn Fingleton for instance has long been writing about this fact.

    The idea that East Asians are "copying" doesn't really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn't a particular great engineer. In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple's products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let's call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple's products in the marketplace. In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc.

    It’s an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that’s not the issue I’m addressing here.

    “That’s not the issue I’m addressing here” = I don’t want to talk about the fact that Asians invented nothing in the last 500 years.

    We’re talking about modern day.

    Yes. The modern day where Asian economic growth is built entirely on top of European innovations. Nice sidestep by the way.

    It’s clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they’re vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

    Yes. Certainly Asians skew towards the technical. That’s because their population mean for imagining and creating is far to the left of Euros.

    According to you, “value creation activities” are only technical. Imagination got nuttin’ to do with it — just engineers figuring out how to make smaller, cheaper widgets — the stuff that great nations are made of.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

    LOL. Only high processing power for math creates value. Anything else is shysterism. Got it.

    You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside.

    Erm, “California tech” is all software and creativity — Paypal, Google, Linkedin, AirBNB. “Economies of East Asia” is using cheap labor to crank out tinier and tinier gadgets designed in California by Euros.

    East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc.

    I repeat — following instructions from Euros to build widgets is the only activity that creates value. Conceiving, designing and building business models around those widgets is nothing more than value transference. The Euros add nothing.

    The idea that East Asians are “copying” doesn’t really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

    Another sidestep. Show me one, just one, technological or business innovation from Asia that is extensively used in modern industry or society. Vaunted mathematical ability?

    Show me one mathematical breakthrough from an Asian in the past 500 years. For each one you find (if you can find even one) I’ll show you 50 from Europeans. “High mathematical ability” indeed. I could say the same about a spreadsheet.

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

    Right. Steve Jobs created nothing. Revolutionizing the music, computer and mobile phone industries. Making massive value-creating business models like Uber (copied by the Chinese immediately) possible.

    Only the nerdy technical guys who figured out how to build what Jobs told them to had value. Again, got it.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn’t a particular great engineer.

    Right. And which man has had a greater transformative impact on modern society? The engineer (Gates) or the creative visionary (Jobs)? Rhetorical.

    In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple’s products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let’s call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple’s products in the marketplace.

    Translation: The widget makers are the real heroes and value creators here! Jobs did nothing. A shyster at best (typed on Yan Shen’s smartphone, an irony-free zone).

    In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc

    Everyone knows that innovation is purely about incremental widget improvements, at which Asians excel. Building widgets conceived and designed by Europeans is “real innovation.” Aseans are so good at it that the all scientific and engineering progress underlying all these widgets came from Europeans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Your view that the Asians invent nothing and just build widgets that white people design for them is false. Japan and Korea produce a lot of stuff on their own that is every bit as good as Western stuff, sometimes better = phones, cars, etc. And the Chinese are catching up fast. All of these countries started from a very low base and have made incredible progress since the end of WWII while we have gone in the other direction . They went from oxcarts to supercars and we went from Detroit the Motor City to a place that looks like Tokyo after the firebombing raids.
    , @Yan Shen
    Uh no, the entire point is that the scientific and engineering R&D work today is being disproportionately done in East Asia or by East Asians in the US! Pointing out that things were different a few hundred years ago doesn't really change the fact that we live in the present, no?

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    When the iPhone 8 uses a next generation OLED screen or the likes, Samsung is probably the company supplying it to them. Software aside, Apple's primary strengths are in marketing and design. Samsung's strength is in engineering, which I would argue is real innovation and creation. Like I mentioned in my previous post, you're merely subscribing to the Don Draper theory of innovation, which I suggested probably reveals a cultural schism between how East Asians and whites view these sorts of things.
  115. Jack D says:
    @res
    Thanks for providing more realistic numbers. Do you have a citation that I can use elsewhere?

    I find myself wondering whether that graphic is a Trumpian (go ahead, correct my crime statistics for blacks) ruse.

    The 1% = 1% of US population of 325M = 3.25M

    US Jews, roughly 6 million.

    Source: Wikipedia

    The rest is just simple math.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Never trust wiki on sensitive issues.
    Any investigation into the six million jews killed by Hitler stuck on the question 'who is a jew', and 'where and when were jews counted to this criterium'.

    The association of atheistic jews defines a jew as 'somone belonging to the jewish culture'.
    They do not seem to understand that this definition defines nothing, because this jewish culture has not been defined.

    The German race laws of the thirties had nothing to do with race, one was a jew according to the registered religion of parents and greatparents.
    Jewishness thus varied from one eight to one.

    I corresponded with a USA citizen whose great grandfather around 1870 in Germany converted from judaism to protestantism.
    If my correspondent goes to church in the USA, I do nog know, what I do know is that in my opinion according to the definition of the atheistic jews he's a jew.
    His jewishness was clear to me from the way he distorted facts about how Israel was founded.

    So if officially the USA has two percent jews, I'd say in reality it is six or more.
  116. Jack D says:
    @Winston
    Most discussions about affirmative action miss the real point. AA is not about racial preference or social justice/injustice but rather about social harmony. If the US doesn't want continued racial wars and want to remain as a republic, the achievement gap between different racial groups has to be controlled to a certain degree. The problem is that the current form of AA doesn't seem to work.

    In Woody Allen’s Bananas , the mad Castro type dictator decrees:

    “All children under 16 years old… are now 16 years old.”

    Closing the achievement gap is like that. Just because the government decrees something to be true doesn’t make it true. “Closing the achievement gap” is like filling a leaky bucket. As long as the government keeps pouring massive transfer payments into black and Hispanic communities, they can give blacks the appearance of living a middle class white life. But the moment the massive government support goes away (not just outright welfare but the whole framework of government interventions) it all goes to hell like some African colony returned to the bush.

    Current AA doesn’t work because it can never work any more than Communism could ever work. No matter how you disguise it or rename it or reform it , it’s not going to change reality. Facts are stubborn things.

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  117. Moses says:
    @Yan Shen
    There are 5 million Chinese in the US and something like 1380 million Chinese in mainland China. By my estimates there are maybe around 10 million Chinese total living in Western nations. The idea that East Asians or even Chinese Americans specifically are "all here" is statistical laughable, but I agree that sometimes it may feel that way due to the disproportionate academic dominance of East Asian Americans!

    Asian academic ability and intelligence are so awesome they have been unable to create world class universities in their own countries. Instead they flock to Western universities to learn.

    Oh, the irony.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Only Chinese and Koreans currently do. Japanese for the most part don't. I don't see this as being particularly different from how Americans used to study in Europe back in the day. By the way, you might want to take your head out of the sand and look at China's rapid rise since 2000 in S&T.

    "Take chemistry: in the year 2000, China published 3.7 per cent of all papers in chemistry in the Thomson-Reuters Web of Science collection, based on all Thomson-accredited English-language journals. In 2012, that proportion had reached 16.9 per cent, and China’s total quantity of chemistry papers exceeded that of the US. More strikingly, in 2000 China authored just 0.6 per cent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one per cent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3 per cent of the leading one per cent of papers, half as many as the US – an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing – where China publishes more top one per cent papers than the US – and mathematics (NSF, 2014).

    http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp9.pdf

    American universities became preeminent in part due to the influx of Jewish and other immigrants during the World War 2 era. Their current status I would argue is bolstered in large part by foreigners. What percent of faculty at major universities in relevant subject areas are of foreign origin? Silicon Valley for that matter has a vastly disproportionate Asian American contribute, so in reality in my prior article, more like 4.4 out of the top 5 patent clusters worldwide are East Asian.

    The fact of the matter is, in today's highly competitive and globalized economy you either put up or shut up. Bitching about shit and accusing people of cheating doesn't change anything. It just smacks of sour grapes.

    , @Anon
    According to the US News& World Report, 6 out of top 10 engineering schools are in Asia, with Chinese Tsinghua on top outranking MIT.


    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

    10, 15 years most people outside of Asia would not have heard of these "Asian" universities. But universities in Asia, especially in China, are improving, and improving fast.

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/reputation-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

    - Tsinghua University (#14)
    - Peking University (#17)
    - Kyoto University(#25)
  118. Jack D says:
    @Moses

    It’s an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that’s not the issue I’m addressing here.
     
    "That's not the issue I'm addressing here" = I don't want to talk about the fact that Asians invented nothing in the last 500 years.

    We’re talking about modern day.
     
    Yes. The modern day where Asian economic growth is built entirely on top of European innovations. Nice sidestep by the way.

    It’s clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they’re vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

     

    Yes. Certainly Asians skew towards the technical. That's because their population mean for imagining and creating is far to the left of Euros.

    According to you, "value creation activities" are only technical. Imagination got nuttin' to do with it -- just engineers figuring out how to make smaller, cheaper widgets -- the stuff that great nations are made of.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

     

    LOL. Only high processing power for math creates value. Anything else is shysterism. Got it.

    You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside.

     

    Erm, "California tech" is all software and creativity -- Paypal, Google, Linkedin, AirBNB. "Economies of East Asia" is using cheap labor to crank out tinier and tinier gadgets designed in California by Euros.

    East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc.

     

    I repeat -- following instructions from Euros to build widgets is the only activity that creates value. Conceiving, designing and building business models around those widgets is nothing more than value transference. The Euros add nothing.

    The idea that East Asians are “copying” doesn’t really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

     

    Another sidestep. Show me one, just one, technological or business innovation from Asia that is extensively used in modern industry or society. Vaunted mathematical ability?

    Show me one mathematical breakthrough from an Asian in the past 500 years. For each one you find (if you can find even one) I'll show you 50 from Europeans. "High mathematical ability" indeed. I could say the same about a spreadsheet.

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

     

    Right. Steve Jobs created nothing. Revolutionizing the music, computer and mobile phone industries. Making massive value-creating business models like Uber (copied by the Chinese immediately) possible.

    Only the nerdy technical guys who figured out how to build what Jobs told them to had value. Again, got it.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn’t a particular great engineer.

     

    Right. And which man has had a greater transformative impact on modern society? The engineer (Gates) or the creative visionary (Jobs)? Rhetorical.

    In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple’s products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let’s call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple’s products in the marketplace.
     
    Translation: The widget makers are the real heroes and value creators here! Jobs did nothing. A shyster at best (typed on Yan Shen's smartphone, an irony-free zone).

    In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc
     
    Everyone knows that innovation is purely about incremental widget improvements, at which Asians excel. Building widgets conceived and designed by Europeans is "real innovation." Aseans are so good at it that the all scientific and engineering progress underlying all these widgets came from Europeans.

    Your view that the Asians invent nothing and just build widgets that white people design for them is false. Japan and Korea produce a lot of stuff on their own that is every bit as good as Western stuff, sometimes better = phones, cars, etc. And the Chinese are catching up fast. All of these countries started from a very low base and have made incredible progress since the end of WWII while we have gone in the other direction . They went from oxcarts to supercars and we went from Detroit the Motor City to a place that looks like Tokyo after the firebombing raids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Sure I'm a uh creative visionary. I want a fancy rocket ship that'll take us to Mars that looks like this with that there and this here. Now let's have some dull scientist and engineering types grind it out and make my vision a reality!
  119. Jack D says:
    @3g4me
    @ 1-1000 Always and Eternal Yan Shen: When you establish your primarily Han genius ethnostate, we'll all congratulate you on your foresight and success. Oh wait, there are already a number of Han ethnostates, yet for some unknown reason all that Han innate genius only seems to flower among White European Christian civilization. Funny, that.

    What you may have in mind doesn't particularly matter, since America is not your country and Americans are certainly not your people. Your incessant crowing about purported Asian intellectual superiority (ever present in your comments at other sites prior to your banning as a pain in the ass) exhibits a certain astounding lack of self-awareness, to use something another commenter here remarked about Jack D - another example of a proud "market-dominant minority."

    Han innate genius only seems to flower among White European Christian civilization

    I guess you haven’t visited Singapore lately, or HK or Shanghai, etc.

    The Chinese had a civilization back when Europeans were still living in caves.

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  120. Jack D says:
    @Johan Schmidt
    You're not kidding about the "Dark Ages". I was watching someone live-stream a city-builder and he gave his citizens "Free Wi-fi", when the game calendar read "1994". Several people jumped into chat to claim "Wi-fi didn't exist in 1994". Actually, it did.

    Actually it didn’t. Wikipedia says 1998.

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  121. Yan Shen says:
    @Moses

    It’s an interesting question why Europe and East Asia diverged in the past 500 years, but that’s not the issue I’m addressing here.
     
    "That's not the issue I'm addressing here" = I don't want to talk about the fact that Asians invented nothing in the last 500 years.

    We’re talking about modern day.
     
    Yes. The modern day where Asian economic growth is built entirely on top of European innovations. Nice sidestep by the way.

    It’s clear to me that East Asians skew towards quantitative aptitude and that probably explains why East Asians are disproportionately over-represented in actual value creation activities, i.e. they’re vastly over-represented in technical roles in Silicon Valley, etc.

     

    Yes. Certainly Asians skew towards the technical. That's because their population mean for imagining and creating is far to the left of Euros.

    According to you, "value creation activities" are only technical. Imagination got nuttin' to do with it -- just engineers figuring out how to make smaller, cheaper widgets -- the stuff that great nations are made of.

    Please refer to my early comment about the meme that high mathematical ability is conducive to value creation while high verbal ability is conducive to value transference.

     

    LOL. Only high processing power for math creates value. Anything else is shysterism. Got it.

    You can see this reflected in the very different manner that the economies of East Asia are oriented compared to the economies of Western nations, California tech aside.

     

    Erm, "California tech" is all software and creativity -- Paypal, Google, Linkedin, AirBNB. "Economies of East Asia" is using cheap labor to crank out tinier and tinier gadgets designed in California by Euros.

    East Asian economies are disproportionately shifted towards value creation tech and advanced manufacturing, while Western economies are more oriented towards value transference services such as investment banking, management consulting, law, etc.

     

    I repeat -- following instructions from Euros to build widgets is the only activity that creates value. Conceiving, designing and building business models around those widgets is nothing more than value transference. The Euros add nothing.

    The idea that East Asians are “copying” doesn’t really hold water when you consider that East Asians are actually disproportionately over-represented in value creation activities both in the US and worldwide. For instance see the article below.

     

    Another sidestep. Show me one, just one, technological or business innovation from Asia that is extensively used in modern industry or society. Vaunted mathematical ability?

    Show me one mathematical breakthrough from an Asian in the past 500 years. For each one you find (if you can find even one) I'll show you 50 from Europeans. "High mathematical ability" indeed. I could say the same about a spreadsheet.

    I suspect that part of the perception gap is due to what I noted in another comment, when I responded to someone holding up Steve Jobs as an example of innovative and creative brilliance! My point was that Jobs was actually noted mostly for being a product and design person, not for being technically brilliant.

     

    Right. Steve Jobs created nothing. Revolutionizing the music, computer and mobile phone industries. Making massive value-creating business models like Uber (copied by the Chinese immediately) possible.

    Only the nerdy technical guys who figured out how to build what Jobs told them to had value. Again, got it.

    Bill Gates supposedly looked down on Steve Jobs because the latter wasn’t a particular great engineer.

     

    Right. And which man has had a greater transformative impact on modern society? The engineer (Gates) or the creative visionary (Jobs)? Rhetorical.

    In actuality, most of the high end technical components in Apple’s products are made in East Asia, many of them supplied by their direct competitor Samsung! Let’s call Jobs as belonging to what I refer to as the Don Draper school of innovation. Others have described Steve Jobs as possessing a reality distortion field, able to use slick marketing and verbiage to advance Apple’s products in the marketplace.
     
    Translation: The widget makers are the real heroes and value creators here! Jobs did nothing. A shyster at best (typed on Yan Shen's smartphone, an irony-free zone).

    In general, I suspect that whites are more inclined to view the kind of design innovation that Jobs embodies as being real innovation, while East Asians typically view innovation from a more purely technical perspective, i.e. Samsung coming out with the latest generation OLED displays, etc
     
    Everyone knows that innovation is purely about incremental widget improvements, at which Asians excel. Building widgets conceived and designed by Europeans is "real innovation." Aseans are so good at it that the all scientific and engineering progress underlying all these widgets came from Europeans.

    Uh no, the entire point is that the scientific and engineering R&D work today is being disproportionately done in East Asia or by East Asians in the US! Pointing out that things were different a few hundred years ago doesn’t really change the fact that we live in the present, no?

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    When the iPhone 8 uses a next generation OLED screen or the likes, Samsung is probably the company supplying it to them. Software aside, Apple’s primary strengths are in marketing and design. Samsung’s strength is in engineering, which I would argue is real innovation and creation. Like I mentioned in my previous post, you’re merely subscribing to the Don Draper theory of innovation, which I suggested probably reveals a cultural schism between how East Asians and whites view these sorts of things.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Moses
    More sidestepping.

    Yes, Asians work disproportionately in STEM. And if Asians tend to be strong in STEM due to HBD (which I don't doubt) then why have we seen no historical innovation from Asian countries? All fundamental innovations, discoveries and scientific theories came from the West. Yes, all right up to the Current Year.

    - Internal combustion engine
    - Power generation and transmission
    - The corporation
    - The Internet
    - Computers
    - Radio
    - Television
    - Calculus
    - Trigonometry
    - Rocketry
    - Display technology
    - Quantum theory
    - Steam engine
    - Clocks
    - Genetic theory and engineering
    - Understanding of the circulatory system
    - Advanced drugs

    I could go on and on. Charles Murray already has.

    My observation after living in Asia for 10+ years is that although Asians have strong processing power they're weak in the creativity and insight that leads to innovation and breakthroughs. They are good at making improvements to already-existing processes/products, but not so good at breakthroughs (like iPhone, Google, Internet, Uber, reusable rockets etc). It explains why they never developed technology like Euros did.


    Software aside, Apple’s primary strengths are in marketing and design. Samsung’s strength is in engineering, which I would argue is real innovation and creation.

     

    I am not knocking the engineering that Samsung does. It's advanced work. It does require intelligence and skill. And they are great at it.

    Apple excels at understanding what people need, imagining the future and ideating devices, software and business models that change the world. It's suited to European HBD strengths. Samsung excels at applied engineering and building the devices to spec cleverly. It's suited to Asian HBD strengths.

    It seems where we differ is you value only the applied engineering bit. Whereas I put tremendous value on the ideation and creation. Without ideation there can be nothing. Without highly advanced engineering maybe the devices would be bulkier or more expensive, but we'd still have them.

    After all, Europeans did manage to build electronic devices before outsourcing to Asia, whereas Asians were never able to ideate or build these innovations without European insight (hence all scientific and technological progress has been from the West up to now).

    I'm not knocking Asians. I'm married to one. I actually view Asians and Europeans as having a symbiotic relationship. They complement each other, HBD-wise.

    I am a little fatigued at the chest-thumping of "Asian mathematical aptitude". Yes, I don't doubt it. But it's more of an ability to process math, not innovate or think creatively. Hence the symbiosis between Euros and Asians.

  122. Yan Shen says:
    @Jack D
    Your view that the Asians invent nothing and just build widgets that white people design for them is false. Japan and Korea produce a lot of stuff on their own that is every bit as good as Western stuff, sometimes better = phones, cars, etc. And the Chinese are catching up fast. All of these countries started from a very low base and have made incredible progress since the end of WWII while we have gone in the other direction . They went from oxcarts to supercars and we went from Detroit the Motor City to a place that looks like Tokyo after the firebombing raids.

    Sure I’m a uh creative visionary. I want a fancy rocket ship that’ll take us to Mars that looks like this with that there and this here. Now let’s have some dull scientist and engineering types grind it out and make my vision a reality!

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Yan Shen, with that comment you validate the stereotype. Don't underestimate the difficulty of knowing when the time is right for a given innovation and having the drive, resources, and risk loving personality to make it happen. The whole point is that the "grind it out" phase only becomes possible after some innovator has done the ground work of identifying the opportunity, providing the resources, finding the right people, and turning a seemingly impossible project into a complicated structure of (interdependent, and vulnerable to a single failure!) "grind it out" components.

    P.S. Apportioning the rewards between the two types can be hard. We engineering types often fail to appreciate the risk undertaken by these innovators. That risk should be rewarded.

    P.P.S. Jack D is right and I am mystified that so many underestimate Asian ability (it's all cheating!) after their success in so many industries over time.
  123. Yan Shen says:
    @Moses
    Asian academic ability and intelligence are so awesome they have been unable to create world class universities in their own countries. Instead they flock to Western universities to learn.

    Oh, the irony.

    Only Chinese and Koreans currently do. Japanese for the most part don’t. I don’t see this as being particularly different from how Americans used to study in Europe back in the day. By the way, you might want to take your head out of the sand and look at China’s rapid rise since 2000 in S&T.

    “Take chemistry: in the year 2000, China published 3.7 per cent of all papers in chemistry in the Thomson-Reuters Web of Science collection, based on all Thomson-accredited English-language journals. In 2012, that proportion had reached 16.9 per cent, and China’s total quantity of chemistry papers exceeded that of the US. More strikingly, in 2000 China authored just 0.6 per cent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one per cent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3 per cent of the leading one per cent of papers, half as many as the US – an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing – where China publishes more top one per cent papers than the US – and mathematics (NSF, 2014).

    http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp9.pdf

    American universities became preeminent in part due to the influx of Jewish and other immigrants during the World War 2 era. Their current status I would argue is bolstered in large part by foreigners. What percent of faculty at major universities in relevant subject areas are of foreign origin? Silicon Valley for that matter has a vastly disproportionate Asian American contribute, so in reality in my prior article, more like 4.4 out of the top 5 patent clusters worldwide are East Asian.

    The fact of the matter is, in today’s highly competitive and globalized economy you either put up or shut up. Bitching about shit and accusing people of cheating doesn’t change anything. It just smacks of sour grapes.

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  124. @Moses

    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-white gap on something like the SAT math isn’t primarily due to HBD? (Let’s ignore selective immigration for a moment here.)
     
    Is there any evidence that the East Asian-European gap on something like, oh I dunno, every single technological and business innovation of the last 500 years isn't primarily due to HBD?

    Euros invent. Asians copy. HBD.

    No, vague racist assertions are not the whole story, but there are a few more things everybody ignores (due to being really bad at the logic and statistics, imo) and could be elaborated on.

    Besides self-selection, one notable factor for the SAT family of standardized tests is that students take the test different numbers of times, and because it’s (at least in part, and 100% sometimes or in some sections or in the past) a multiple choice test there is random noise in the results produced. Well, testing can produce essentially random variance anyway, but literally millions of students deliberately guess at multiple choice questions, as everyone knows.

    Not only do different races and genders have different rates of taking the test, but each demographic bin probably has statistically significant (and meaningful) differences. White males, white females, Asian males, Asian females, etc. each take these tests different numbers of times on average.

    Class bias is actually huge here too, it’s not just biological demographic distinctions and (poor) Hispanics and blacks that are disadvantaged. Though none of their advocates ever seem to know enough to figure this out and argue this, I will.

    Here’s some examples:

    Student A takes the SAT 5 times, scoring on two sections, Math+Verbal/Reading/whatever you call it:
    730, 680
    760, 650
    740, 690
    800, 670
    750, 710

    Student B takes the SAT once, scoring
    750, 750

    These could be any races, but let’s say Student B was a poor rural white student, and Student A was Asian, and anyhow, the scores as reported by a college or averaged into large national reports or whatever show Student A has a 1510 total SAT and Student B has a 1500 total.

    Without the raw data or many many more summary statistics it’s impossible to really know for sure how situations like the above affect broad, rounded off reports and averages.

    Also, there are situations like this:

    Middle-class Mary takes the SAT as a freshman, for some reason, scores 550/550. She decides she doesn’t like the SAT and never takes it again, taking the ACT some nonzero number of times and eventually reporting an ACT score of 30 to colleges. Her SAT score, however, is recorded in databases and totaled and averaged into whatever counts.

    There are tens of thousands of cases each year corresponding to all of the above situations; it’s not a simple problem to correct for and none of the raw data on things like this are ever released, but we can guarantee different races/genders/poor/rich do self-select into test taking at different rates.

    Given that poor blacks and Hispanics are marginally disadvantaged by all such situations and behavior, and the class bias in general, there is a politically correct angle to take a look at all this. It does mean that small differences in averages or lumpy counts (even forgetting again that we can’t sort out citizens/noncitizens from public data and such) shouldn’t be treated as that big of a deal.

    Also why for purposes of validity in discussions like these, tests like the AP tests which students take only once are valuable to consider.

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  125. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    @Yan Shen
    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    If these scores meant anything in the real world than Asians would've taken over Wall Street long ago. Markets have never been more dependent on high level math. Yet Asian representation is modest. And --most importantly-- there is no Asian reputation for investment, market speculation (or blatant manipulation) genius.

    Ethnic groups develop reputations within industries. This is where the rubber meets the road. And if you think there are Wall Street players demanding Asians be in charge of their departments, firms or accounts, due to known stellar track record that seems to be an ethnic trait, think again. It's not happening.

    Asians are starting to win a lot of Nobel prizes and are very active in patent applications. Their intelligence is legitimate.

    That they have not started dominating Wall Street yet is not an indication of a lack of intelligence.

    What takes more brains? Winning a Nobel prize in science and making important scientific discoveries or becoming a hedge fund billionaire?

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  126. FKA Max says:
    @Yan Shen
    Just pointing out the obvious that the way Brookings presented the SAT tail end math data understates the extent to which Asian Americans dominate, since there are fewer Asian Americans in recent high school cohorts compared to members of other ethnic groups.

    We had a discussion/debate about this a while back:

    Has anybody noticed this yet?

    Overall these test-takers were 14 percent Asian, 51 percent White, 21 percent Latino and 14 percent black.

    Would it be reasonable to assume, that there would be a higher percentage of non-Hispanic White 750-800 scores if non-Hispanic Whites were represented at their current/actual percentage of the population: 62 percent?

    Nobody seems to have factored this in or pointed this out so far – that I am aware of – that Asians are currently about 5.6 percent of the population, but 14 percent of the test-takers.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/everything-about-sat-math-racial-gaps-has-changed-since-1972/#comment-1761621

    Excerpt from your reply:

    I admit that presenting the data in terms of % of total test takers who scored above some threshold is a bit misleading, since it ignores the obvious fact that the different groups weren’t equally represented in the overall test taking pool. However, this in fact understates the degree to which Asian Americans over-performed, since obviously there were a lot more white Americans in absolute numbers.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/everything-about-sat-math-racial-gaps-has-changed-since-1972/#comment-1761666

    Excerpt from my reply to you:

    If non-Hispanic Whites were to test-prep at the same rates and with the same intensity/dedication/ambition as Asians do, there would also be many more non-Hispanic White 750-800 scores:

    Use of Test-Prep Courses and Gains, by Race and Ethnicity

    Group, % Taking Test-Prep Course, Post-Course Gain in Points on SAT
    East Asian American 30% 68.8
    Other Asian 15% 23.8
    White 10% 12.3
    Black 16% 14.9
    Hispanic 11% 24.6

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/everything-about-sat-math-racial-gaps-has-changed-since-1972/#comment-1761758

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  127. anonHUN says:
    @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    What are those impediments? Isn’t their own community/culture are one of those?

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  128. Moses says:
    @Yan Shen
    Uh no, the entire point is that the scientific and engineering R&D work today is being disproportionately done in East Asia or by East Asians in the US! Pointing out that things were different a few hundred years ago doesn't really change the fact that we live in the present, no?

    https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

    When the iPhone 8 uses a next generation OLED screen or the likes, Samsung is probably the company supplying it to them. Software aside, Apple's primary strengths are in marketing and design. Samsung's strength is in engineering, which I would argue is real innovation and creation. Like I mentioned in my previous post, you're merely subscribing to the Don Draper theory of innovation, which I suggested probably reveals a cultural schism between how East Asians and whites view these sorts of things.

    More sidestepping.

    Yes, Asians work disproportionately in STEM. And if Asians tend to be strong in STEM due to HBD (which I don’t doubt) then why have we seen no historical innovation from Asian countries? All fundamental innovations, discoveries and scientific theories came from the West. Yes, all right up to the Current Year.

    - Internal combustion engine
    - Power generation and transmission
    - The corporation
    - The Internet
    - Computers
    - Radio
    - Television
    - Calculus
    - Trigonometry
    - Rocketry
    - Display technology
    - Quantum theory
    - Steam engine
    - Clocks
    - Genetic theory and engineering
    - Understanding of the circulatory system
    - Advanced drugs

    I could go on and on. Charles Murray already has.

    My observation after living in Asia for 10+ years is that although Asians have strong processing power they’re weak in the creativity and insight that leads to innovation and breakthroughs. They are good at making improvements to already-existing processes/products, but not so good at breakthroughs (like iPhone, Google, Internet, Uber, reusable rockets etc). It explains why they never developed technology like Euros did.

    Software aside, Apple’s primary strengths are in marketing and design. Samsung’s strength is in engineering, which I would argue is real innovation and creation.

    I am not knocking the engineering that Samsung does. It’s advanced work. It does require intelligence and skill. And they are great at it.

    Apple excels at understanding what people need, imagining the future and ideating devices, software and business models that change the world. It’s suited to European HBD strengths. Samsung excels at applied engineering and building the devices to spec cleverly. It’s suited to Asian HBD strengths.

    It seems where we differ is you value only the applied engineering bit. Whereas I put tremendous value on the ideation and creation. Without ideation there can be nothing. Without highly advanced engineering maybe the devices would be bulkier or more expensive, but we’d still have them.

    After all, Europeans did manage to build electronic devices before outsourcing to Asia, whereas Asians were never able to ideate or build these innovations without European insight (hence all scientific and technological progress has been from the West up to now).

    I’m not knocking Asians. I’m married to one. I actually view Asians and Europeans as having a symbiotic relationship. They complement each other, HBD-wise.

    I am a little fatigued at the chest-thumping of “Asian mathematical aptitude”. Yes, I don’t doubt it. But it’s more of an ability to process math, not innovate or think creatively. Hence the symbiosis between Euros and Asians.

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    • Replies: @El Dato

    But it’s more of an ability to process math, not innovate or think creatively.
     
    Strength in diversity etc. but you may have heard of Shinichi Mochizuki's purported proof of the abc conjecture (2016-07)

    Basically, he went off the beaten paths completely and produced something that no-one except him and possibly his students can properly explain or understand. There seems also an at least initial huffiness regarding trying to connect back to the mainstream world of mathematics to at least get something across. Not entirely sure about the latest developments in that particular excursion into theorem space.

    See also: Hope Rekindled for Perplexing Proof (2015-11)
    , @Yan Shen
    Once again, you keep bringing up past history. I get it man. Issac Newton was a great man. Charles Murray mentioned him in his book. Unfortunate Newton died hundreds of years ago, influential as he was. The Arabs had a good run of a few hundred years also, but all of that's in the past. You mention Murray's book. Let me point out that it goes through 1950. We live in 2017. The question is, how will the next 500 years look like?

    Fact of the matter is, increasingly more of the actual value creation R&D science and technology work is being disproportionately done by East Asians today, whether in East Asia or in the US. My point was that holding up Jobs as an example of creative innovation is questionable at best, given that his main strengths were in product and design, as opposed to technical. Both Bill Gates and Steve Wozniack's dad supposedly look down on Jobs. In the Walter Issacson biography Woz's dad apparently felt that Jobs had created shit.

    Even more ironic, since you accuse East Asians of stealing, Jobs has long been accused of taking credit for other people's ideas!

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Steve-Jobs-take-credit-for-some-of-the-inventions-of-others

    The fact that you're still doubling down on Jobs as this paragon of supposed uh American creative and innovative brilliance really goes back to this schism I suggested existed between how East Asians and whites view innovation. Whites are far more likely to subscribe to the Don Draper theory of innovation, while East Asians view innovation primarily through the lens of the technical

    The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple's devices. They're all supplied by East Asian companies.

    Let me save you some time, since this information isn't in Charles Murrays book. Ching Tang, a Chinese American, is often considered to be the father of the OLED. NAND was invented by Fujio Masuoka while working for Toshiba around 1980. If you've been following recent news, one of the big things was Toshiba trying to shed its memory division or something due to financial circumstances and numerous buyers lining up to bid...

  129. El Dato says:
    @kaganovitch
    Rest assured that is not an ad by a Jewish org. That's alt-right trolling.

    Definitely we live in the post-Onion Singularity times.

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  130. El Dato says:
    @Moses
    More sidestepping.

    Yes, Asians work disproportionately in STEM. And if Asians tend to be strong in STEM due to HBD (which I don't doubt) then why have we seen no historical innovation from Asian countries? All fundamental innovations, discoveries and scientific theories came from the West. Yes, all right up to the Current Year.

    - Internal combustion engine
    - Power generation and transmission
    - The corporation
    - The Internet
    - Computers
    - Radio
    - Television
    - Calculus
    - Trigonometry
    - Rocketry
    - Display technology
    - Quantum theory
    - Steam engine
    - Clocks
    - Genetic theory and engineering
    - Understanding of the circulatory system
    - Advanced drugs

    I could go on and on. Charles Murray already has.

    My observation after living in Asia for 10+ years is that although Asians have strong processing power they're weak in the creativity and insight that leads to innovation and breakthroughs. They are good at making improvements to already-existing processes/products, but not so good at breakthroughs (like iPhone, Google, Internet, Uber, reusable rockets etc). It explains why they never developed technology like Euros did.


    Software aside, Apple’s primary strengths are in marketing and design. Samsung’s strength is in engineering, which I would argue is real innovation and creation.

     

    I am not knocking the engineering that Samsung does. It's advanced work. It does require intelligence and skill. And they are great at it.

    Apple excels at understanding what people need, imagining the future and ideating devices, software and business models that change the world. It's suited to European HBD strengths. Samsung excels at applied engineering and building the devices to spec cleverly. It's suited to Asian HBD strengths.

    It seems where we differ is you value only the applied engineering bit. Whereas I put tremendous value on the ideation and creation. Without ideation there can be nothing. Without highly advanced engineering maybe the devices would be bulkier or more expensive, but we'd still have them.

    After all, Europeans did manage to build electronic devices before outsourcing to Asia, whereas Asians were never able to ideate or build these innovations without European insight (hence all scientific and technological progress has been from the West up to now).

    I'm not knocking Asians. I'm married to one. I actually view Asians and Europeans as having a symbiotic relationship. They complement each other, HBD-wise.

    I am a little fatigued at the chest-thumping of "Asian mathematical aptitude". Yes, I don't doubt it. But it's more of an ability to process math, not innovate or think creatively. Hence the symbiosis between Euros and Asians.

    But it’s more of an ability to process math, not innovate or think creatively.

    Strength in diversity etc. but you may have heard of Shinichi Mochizuki‘s purported proof of the abc conjecture (2016-07)

    Basically, he went off the beaten paths completely and produced something that no-one except him and possibly his students can properly explain or understand. There seems also an at least initial huffiness regarding trying to connect back to the mainstream world of mathematics to at least get something across. Not entirely sure about the latest developments in that particular excursion into theorem space.

    See also: Hope Rekindled for Perplexing Proof (2015-11)

    Read More
  131. In an article here I read that blacks on average have a lower IQ.
    Now oen may ask what the cultural component of IQ is, but IQ has to do with western society.
    So, who has a lower IQ fits less well in western society, intellectually or culturally.
    If all this is true one may deplore it, but it seems that little can be done about it;

    In Germqny in the thirties there was a substantial overrepresention of jews in intellectual professions, doctors, lawyers, journalists, university professors.
    When Sarrazin wrote his book on how Germany destroys itself through immigration, on average people with lower IQ’s, IQ is supposed to be heritary to a large degree, he also remarked that jews on average have a ten percent higher IQ.
    This remark is said to be the reason he was fired immediately.

    In the Netherlands already decades ago a psychologist, Buikhuysen, investigated if criminality was heritary.
    He was fired too.

    Our western societies are supposed to be rational, but they are not.
    Unpleasant truths are suppressed.

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  132. unit472 says:

    One major problem is that so brilliant are our black geniuses they reduce our societies need for large numbers of highly educated negroes. Afterall, once a Ta-Nehisi Coates has spoken on a subject what is left to be said? Then there is the most brilliant astrophysicist of all time, Neil DeGrasse Tyson. So powerful is this man’s mind that not even the mysteries of the universe can fully occupy his time. While the white Ph.Ds at the Weather Channel and National Hurricane Center struggled to come to grips with the hurricane now battering Texas, former planetarium director Tyson, was able to make sense of it all in one tweet. He wrote: “”Don’t see much denial of @NOAA climate scientists who have predicted Hurricane Harvey’s devastating path into Texas”

    Now I admit I don’t see much correlation between a single hurricane and global climate but then I am not a world famous negro scientist either.

    Read More
    • Replies: @El Dato
    Well, that's the guy who thinks deflecting asteroids is easy and can be done today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI9M37tdWiI

    He's a showman.
    , @Jim
    The computer models attempting to predict the path of Harvey over a few days in the future don't appear to be have been any more accurate than simple guesswork. After Harvey went back into the Gulf all the models were predicting that it would make landfall again in Houston. Instead it made landfall about 5 miles west of Cameron, Louisiana.

    Of course comparing predicting the path of a storm a few days into the future with predicting global climate trends many decades into the future is absurd.
  133. @Jack D
    The 1% = 1% of US population of 325M = 3.25M

    US Jews, roughly 6 million.

    Source: Wikipedia

    The rest is just simple math.

    Never trust wiki on sensitive issues.
    Any investigation into the six million jews killed by Hitler stuck on the question ‘who is a jew’, and ‘where and when were jews counted to this criterium’.

    The association of atheistic jews defines a jew as ‘somone belonging to the jewish culture’.
    They do not seem to understand that this definition defines nothing, because this jewish culture has not been defined.

    The German race laws of the thirties had nothing to do with race, one was a jew according to the registered religion of parents and greatparents.
    Jewishness thus varied from one eight to one.

    I corresponded with a USA citizen whose great grandfather around 1870 in Germany converted from judaism to protestantism.
    If my correspondent goes to church in the USA, I do nog know, what I do know is that in my opinion according to the definition of the atheistic jews he’s a jew.
    His jewishness was clear to me from the way he distorted facts about how Israel was founded.

    So if officially the USA has two percent jews, I’d say in reality it is six or more.

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  134. Rich says:
    @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    Yes, IQ is a very steep hill to overcome. Less intelligent people, through hard work and perseverance, can be very successful, but that’s the thing, it takes hard work. And no, Whites know there is no “level playing field” blacks and other minorities get 100′s of points added to their test scores in order for them to take up space a more qualified applicant should fill.
    You must not be from the US, a black kid who showers and wears a suit will be snatched up by any company or school that can get their hands on him, just to fill a quota. They will bend over backwards trying to help him survive and prosper, and promote him far above his abilities.

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  135. prusmc says:
    @Krastos the Gluemaker
    Having looked into the NYT article a little more to see what is up with their data, weirdly excluding multiracial students in the present day cohort (and possibly Native Americans/whatever else they are missing) seems to be doing most of the heavy lifting. Multiracial students (with almost all of these being from Asian/Hispanic/other mixes, not black) are 8-10% of the high school or college-applying cohorts these days, so not negligible.

    Also, at elite colleges, international/non-citizen students might have gone from about 3% in 1980 to 15% in the present day. It's not clear, maybe I didn't dig deep enough, if the many charts presented are made with this in mind or not, if they are including non-citizen students that simply cuts into the proportion of all students of all races remaining.

    Blacks are probably about 11% of the American citizen students at elite colleges in the present day, 13%ish of the population, and in 1980 they were more underrepresented than that, by ratio and by total percentage points, say 7%/12%.

    There were actually so few Hispanics in the US in about 1980 (and few would be elite students) that is possible a given random college, like an Ivy League college, had a more extreme ratio of Hispanics then than in the present day, but that's very noisy data from small numbers.

    As already mentioned somewhere, that Brookings graph is not sourced from a data source with absolute numbers and has huge error (in other words, they calculate their numbers by multiplying a rounded-off percentile of students against the total numbers, which for white students could be anywhere from 1.6% to 2.9%, and that represents a difference of thousands of students because whites are such a large group of test-takers and which could change the Asian/white ratio by about 20 percentage points. For every other group, being accurate to the nearest percentage point matters much much less). Also, no accounting for American citizenship (the underlying data source doesn't publicly release this either).

    It might actually be possible to backtrack from total numbers reported or male/female estimates to calculate a closer to true number range by race for that category, still no way to account for citizenship, multiple tests taken etc.

    Better present-day (or at least as close to the present year as is released) data imo for the number of relatively elite students is AP exam scores. Higher proportion of US citizens, less effect of repeated test-taking and superscoring since that basically doesn't happen, and no competition weirdly siphoning off students. While there is an SAT/ACT split nontrivially by geography, demographics, etc... (and for example, only "top" students in a given state may self-select into taking the SAT or ACT in that state while everyone else takes the other one) AP exams have comparatively very little competition.

    Not that this is a victory for SJW diversity, of course. Whites/Asians together (plus multiracials who are white/Asian) make up about 90% of elite scorers, and whites are anywhere from 2x to 4x the Asian numbers depending on the subject (say, maths vs english)

    Some schools flaunt the number and percent of students enrolled in AP courses. They pat themselves on the back for high enrollment and then conceal the scores. This means that a large number of 1 or 2 test scores is success and counts as much in the school evaluation as much or more than a few 4 and 5 scores.

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    • Replies: @Krastos the Gluemaker
    The point is there is raw data on AP exam scores by the exam subject, race, and gender, and usually public, private school status and some more, not other vague statistics reported elsewhere by high schools and other institutions. I'm not talking about the latter sources.

    There's a good couple decades-ish of archives.

    You can look up for example and see that there are 80% more white males than females with top scores on an AP Calculus exam or any comparison like that, for many recent years.

    Except for some Hispanic students in US high schools not being American citizens, a notable enough number at statistical levels, there is much, much less distortion in AP exam data for problems that do exist in other data, that's what I'm referring to.

    Again, almost nobody takes the same AP exam multiple times, as with the SAT/ACT, and non-citizen Asian students are not confusingly mixed in with AP score data to nearly the same extent.

    Still nothing is perfect, the AP exams have a much less granular scoring range, and there are self-selection biases, class and demography issues, but it's a sanity check, particularly on outrageous claims.
  136. El Dato says:
    @unit472
    One major problem is that so brilliant are our black geniuses they reduce our societies need for large numbers of highly educated negroes. Afterall, once a Ta-Nehisi Coates has spoken on a subject what is left to be said? Then there is the most brilliant astrophysicist of all time, Neil DeGrasse Tyson. So powerful is this man's mind that not even the mysteries of the universe can fully occupy his time. While the white Ph.Ds at the Weather Channel and National Hurricane Center struggled to come to grips with the hurricane now battering Texas, former planetarium director Tyson, was able to make sense of it all in one tweet. He wrote: ""Don't see much denial of @NOAA climate scientists who have predicted Hurricane Harvey's devastating path into Texas"

    Now I admit I don't see much correlation between a single hurricane and global climate but then I am not a world famous negro scientist either.

    Well, that’s the guy who thinks deflecting asteroids is easy and can be done today:

    He’s a showman.

    Read More
  137. Comms says:
    @Steve Sailer
    That doesn't happen in the U.S. much.

    Lack of bribery convictions may indicate overburdened courts, craftier lawyers, different crimes to pursue, or not pursue (see entries for Holder, Eric), or American ingenuity in better crime and policy widgets.

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  138. aab says:

    Some enlightened liberals are now saying AA doesn’t work because of segregated K-12 schools that failed these otherwise brilliant blacks and hispanics long before college.

    First, there is the hypocrisy. If every libtard moves into a segregated neighborhood and sends his/her kid to a segregated school, we would have no problem with crime ridden segregated neighborhoods and failed schools. But of course, these same libtards are always clamoring to live in the whitest possible neighborhoods and sending their kids to the whitest possible schools. They just want other people (aka “racist” conservatives) to sacrifice their kids, not themselves. Many of these libtards are now even running away from Asians, too much competition.

    Next, liberals just can’t have it both ways. They want completely desegregated schools where blacks and hispanics remain minorities among white students (as if blacks and browns can only learn when they are seated next to a white kid — but don’t bother explaining to a libtard how that is racist), but they also want unlimited immigration from the 3rd world. When you have unlimited immigration from non-white countries, whites invariably become a minority, which means these minority groups will have fewer and fewer chances of being “integrated” with whites, because we are running out of whites to integrate them. But don’t bother explaining that to a liberal either, if they understood logic they wouldn’t be liberals.

    Lastly, there is no pleasing these libtards or their charges as long every black is not living in a mega mansion and holding a professional job. Since these elite schools are so good at polishing rocks into diamonds and turning out the smartest kids like Obama, we need to make every one of our top 10 schools – the Ivies+Stanford+MIT 100% black, until the average income of blacks equals that of whites. I say it’s time to get that going.

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  139. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Moses
    Asian academic ability and intelligence are so awesome they have been unable to create world class universities in their own countries. Instead they flock to Western universities to learn.

    Oh, the irony.

    According to the US News& World Report, 6 out of top 10 engineering schools are in Asia, with Chinese Tsinghua on top outranking MIT.

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

    10, 15 years most people outside of Asia would not have heard of these “Asian” universities. But universities in Asia, especially in China, are improving, and improving fast.

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/reputation-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

    - Tsinghua University (#14)
    - Peking University (#17)
    - Kyoto University(#25)

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  140. res says:
    @Yan Shen
    Sure I'm a uh creative visionary. I want a fancy rocket ship that'll take us to Mars that looks like this with that there and this here. Now let's have some dull scientist and engineering types grind it out and make my vision a reality!

    Yan Shen, with that comment you validate the stereotype. Don’t underestimate the difficulty of knowing when the time is right for a given innovation and having the drive, resources, and risk loving personality to make it happen. The whole point is that the “grind it out” phase only becomes possible after some innovator has done the ground work of identifying the opportunity, providing the resources, finding the right people, and turning a seemingly impossible project into a complicated structure of (interdependent, and vulnerable to a single failure!) “grind it out” components.

    P.S. Apportioning the rewards between the two types can be hard. We engineering types often fail to appreciate the risk undertaken by these innovators. That risk should be rewarded.

    P.P.S. Jack D is right and I am mystified that so many underestimate Asian ability (it’s all cheating!) after their success in so many industries over time.

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  141. @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    Ever thought of becoming a fiction writer??

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  142. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Two national mathematics organizations are on a mission to prove that math education is “unjust and grounded in a legacy of institutional discrimination.”

    The National Council of Supervisors of Mathematics (NCSM) and TODOS: Mathematics for All “ratify social justice as a key priority in the access to, engagement with, and advancement in mathematics education for our country’s youth,” the groups declared last year in a joint statement, elaborating that “a social justice stance interrogates and challenges the roles power, privilege, and oppression play in the current unjust system of mathematics education—and in society as a whole.”

    https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9627

    Math education is unjust and Asians are cheating their tests. How else do you explain the SAT test results?

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  143. The HBD-mediated differences between European and East Asian intellects is well illustrated by the rapid development of the Japanese sailing fleet in the mid-19th century. Japan was far behind Europe in 1840, but rapidly built an entire new fleet by directly copying from a set of Dutch shipbuilding manuals. This took great copying/replication skills, but not that much genuine creativity, compared to the European development of the original fleets.

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  144. From looking at the NYT original article, which contains demographics breakdown of every elite school as well as top liberal arts colleges and flagship universities, one thing stands out. The liberal arts colleges are overwhelmingly white, and they are also overwhelmingly liberal. In fact the whiter it is the more liberal it is, just like Brown is one of the whitest Ivies and it’s also the most liberal. Isn’t it ironic?

    This again speaks to the hypocrisy of the left. They clamor to get into the whitest colleges, then decry white racism. Just like how they clamor to move to the whitest neighborhoods and send their kids to the whitest schools, then decry racist segregation.

    If liberals understood hypocrisy, they wouldn’t be liberals.

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  145. lao gu says:
    @Yan Shen
    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.

    60% of math score above 750 are Asian which are about 6% population of USA. White about 33% score above 750. It safely guess that East Asian students are three times high achieved than the
    Jews, It is amusing.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    But the psychometric evidence does indicate that Ashkenazi Jews are about a half-standard deviation above Northeast Asians in IQ. However Northeast Asian IQ is strongly biased toward quantitative-spatial IQ.
  146. This is strong argument for curtailing Asian immigration, in particular from China and India, these two countries alone make up at least 40% of all new immigrants. If we don’t do this, pretty soon all our top 100 universities will be 90% Chinese or Indian. There are 2.6 Billion of them combined, only 320 million of us. They will swallow us whole and turn us into United States of Chindia within one generation. Many parts of the west coast are already there. Anyone who thinks that’s good for the US should just move to China or India, see how pleasant it is to live in a Chinese or Indian society.

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  147. @Anonymous
    And what's the attrition rate at the top schools for Jews and then also non-Jewish whites?

    Asian over-representation is not impacting blacks/Hispanics all that much according to this data... so whitey is taking the big hit, right?

    Also, massive Asian over-representation was apparently not enough to create an aura of prestige at UC Irvine. Even though it's a great area as opposed to USC. Funny/Not Funny how Asians lag in prestige.

    If we continue with mass Asian immigration our top schools will have all the prestige of Asia. Which is to say not very much.

    “If we continue with mass Asian immigration our top schools will have all the prestige of Asia. Which is to say not very much.”

    Exactly. As Malcolm Gladwell once said, if Harvard were majority Asian, it would no longer be Harvard. It would be Berkeley. It’s time to curtail immigration from China and India, limit green card issuance to these 2 countries to no more than 5% of total green cards issued each year compared to at least 25% now. And cancel the EB5 and H1b altogether, these two groups probably make up 99% of EB5 and at least 70% of all H1b visas issued.

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  148. heh says:
    @Yan Shen
    I'm fairly certain East Asians are over-represented amongst quants. For instance, I remember Michael Lewis talking about Greg Lippmann's "Chinese quant" in The Big Short. It was also one of the more memorable scenes in the movie adaptation of the novel.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/greg-lippmanns-chinese-quant-eugene-xu-leaves-deutsche-bank-2010-5

    Let's also not forget that David X. Li was another guy who pioneered the usage of Gaussian copula models for pricing CDOs back in the early 2000s, which contributed to a lot of this stuff to begin with.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_X._Li

    You're probably thinking more of investment banking or other softer areas of finance where it's more about having an aggressive jock personality. A lot of athlete types for instance fare well in investment banking or even as traders!

    Elite East Asians in general skew more towards tech than finance from what I can see. You can see this also reflected in the very different way that East Asian economies are oriented compared to the economies of the West, California tech aside. As many have pointed out, the economies of China, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are disproportionately oriented towards tech and advanced manufacturing, whereas Western economies tend to be more oriented towards services such as investment banking, management consulting, etc.

    Yet East Asian countries have lower productivity than all of the leading Western nations, and not by a small amount either. Remember, GDP per capita is productivity x hours worked. If we’d normalise all countries to 1500 hours worked per person, per year, then East Asian countries would fall far behind.

    Those who don’t know economics think that working more means you’re better. Well, Greeks work hardest in Europe, not because they are most disciplined but because they have really bad productivity. Same pattern holds vis-a-vis East Asian developed countries like Japan/Korea/Taiwan vs the leading Western nations.

    So, nice excuse-making, but if EAs were so brilliant, we’d see it in productivity statistics. We don’t. Protip: you can use math in more areas than just manufacturing or tech.

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  149. Yan Shen says:
    @Moses
    More sidestepping.

    Yes, Asians work disproportionately in STEM. And if Asians tend to be strong in STEM due to HBD (which I don't doubt) then why have we seen no historical innovation from Asian countries? All fundamental innovations, discoveries and scientific theories came from the West. Yes, all right up to the Current Year.

    - Internal combustion engine
    - Power generation and transmission
    - The corporation
    - The Internet
    - Computers
    - Radio
    - Television
    - Calculus
    - Trigonometry
    - Rocketry
    - Display technology
    - Quantum theory
    - Steam engine
    - Clocks
    - Genetic theory and engineering
    - Understanding of the circulatory system
    - Advanced drugs

    I could go on and on. Charles Murray already has.

    My observation after living in Asia for 10+ years is that although Asians have strong processing power they're weak in the creativity and insight that leads to innovation and breakthroughs. They are good at making improvements to already-existing processes/products, but not so good at breakthroughs (like iPhone, Google, Internet, Uber, reusable rockets etc). It explains why they never developed technology like Euros did.


    Software aside, Apple’s primary strengths are in marketing and design. Samsung’s strength is in engineering, which I would argue is real innovation and creation.

     

    I am not knocking the engineering that Samsung does. It's advanced work. It does require intelligence and skill. And they are great at it.

    Apple excels at understanding what people need, imagining the future and ideating devices, software and business models that change the world. It's suited to European HBD strengths. Samsung excels at applied engineering and building the devices to spec cleverly. It's suited to Asian HBD strengths.

    It seems where we differ is you value only the applied engineering bit. Whereas I put tremendous value on the ideation and creation. Without ideation there can be nothing. Without highly advanced engineering maybe the devices would be bulkier or more expensive, but we'd still have them.

    After all, Europeans did manage to build electronic devices before outsourcing to Asia, whereas Asians were never able to ideate or build these innovations without European insight (hence all scientific and technological progress has been from the West up to now).

    I'm not knocking Asians. I'm married to one. I actually view Asians and Europeans as having a symbiotic relationship. They complement each other, HBD-wise.

    I am a little fatigued at the chest-thumping of "Asian mathematical aptitude". Yes, I don't doubt it. But it's more of an ability to process math, not innovate or think creatively. Hence the symbiosis between Euros and Asians.

    Once again, you keep bringing up past history. I get it man. Issac Newton was a great man. Charles Murray mentioned him in his book. Unfortunate Newton died hundreds of years ago, influential as he was. The Arabs had a good run of a few hundred years also, but all of that’s in the past. You mention Murray’s book. Let me point out that it goes through 1950. We live in 2017. The question is, how will the next 500 years look like?

    Fact of the matter is, increasingly more of the actual value creation R&D science and technology work is being disproportionately done by East Asians today, whether in East Asia or in the US. My point was that holding up Jobs as an example of creative innovation is questionable at best, given that his main strengths were in product and design, as opposed to technical. Both Bill Gates and Steve Wozniack’s dad supposedly look down on Jobs. In the Walter Issacson biography Woz’s dad apparently felt that Jobs had created shit.

    Even more ironic, since you accuse East Asians of stealing, Jobs has long been accused of taking credit for other people’s ideas!

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Steve-Jobs-take-credit-for-some-of-the-inventions-of-others

    The fact that you’re still doubling down on Jobs as this paragon of supposed uh American creative and innovative brilliance really goes back to this schism I suggested existed between how East Asians and whites view innovation. Whites are far more likely to subscribe to the Don Draper theory of innovation, while East Asians view innovation primarily through the lens of the technical

    The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple’s devices. They’re all supplied by East Asian companies.

    Let me save you some time, since this information isn’t in Charles Murrays book. Ching Tang, a Chinese American, is often considered to be the father of the OLED. NAND was invented by Fujio Masuoka while working for Toshiba around 1980. If you’ve been following recent news, one of the big things was Toshiba trying to shed its memory division or something due to financial circumstances and numerous buyers lining up to bid…

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Since Moses thinks so highly of Steve Jobs and in general is an avid believer in what I call the Don Draper school of innovation, let me point out one other irony apart from the fact that as a primarily product and design oriented rather than technically oriented person, Jobs was often accused of taking credit for other people's ideas.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-was-wrong-about-big-phones-2014-9

    Apple's phones have always been small compared to those of their Asian competitors such as Samsung. Jobs was famously quoted as saying back in the day that no one would want to buy a big phone.

    On the other hand, companies like Samsung more or less pioneered the phablet, with their Galaxy Note series of phones. One of the things people realized when the iPhone 7 Plus came out was that Apple finally realized that people wanted big phones and that phablets were a thing!

    Now granted, I personally don't think "pioneering the phablet" category of products is true innovation in the sense that coming out with the next generation of OLED screens is, but since Moses and it seems like many other white Americans are such avid disciples of the Don Draper school of innovation, I just thought it might be interesting to point out that fact!

    , @Rdm
    Don't worry.

    Ching Tang will be forgotten any time sooner. Hollywood is doing a good job of erasing Asians innovations/invention/creation with whitewashing.

    1. A white guy, Harrison Ford, angry, impulsive, mad scientist managing the entire lab, working days and nights, trying to find a very cure he's been toiling for years while bravely going against the manipulative world of the pharmaceutical companies. A cure for Pompe disease. What a scene where disease-inflicted family profusely thank A white guy for his bravery and discovery.

    In real life --> Yuan-Tsong Chen

    https://pediatrics.duke.edu/faculty/yuan-tsong-chen-md-phd
    http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2010/06/chen-yuan-tsong-pompe-disease-biotech.html

    2. If a scene where a white guy, Jim Sturgess, mentally calculated how much a customer will be paying for their discounted clothes in a split second, will not dazzle your mind, you'd be amazed to learn this story was based on a real life events. The guy was so math-genius, he's practically made Las Vegas to pay for his college fund.

    In real life --> Jeff Ma

    Any redneck watching those movies in their sleazy apartments on Saturday afternoon suddenly wake up, pumped up for Charlottesville movement.

    , @PandaAtWar
    "The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple’s devices. They’re all supplied by East Asian companies..."

    Don't forget the legendary Largan Precision, founded by Tony Chen and Scott Lin of Taiwan, which currently dominates global high-end smartphones camera lens with more than 450 global patents, surpassing traditional Japanese lens powerhouses.

    Largan is the exclusive supplier of high-end lens for Apple iphones , e.g. the current Apple flagships iPhone 7 Plus and iPhone 8 (and some of Huawei phones lately).
  150. Olorin says:
    @Comms
    Admissions offices are underexamined contributors to the distribution of ethnicities and other groupings. Staff and management in those offices perform gatekeeper, or thumb on the scale roles. Look out for number one is the motto. Call around, get organization charts, see who controls the decisions and you will find out where undisclosed soft power resides.

    Also given the soft nature of the job, admissions–like HR in the corporate or NGO or public or ed sectors–is where a lot of AA hiring happens.

    If the person in charge of admissions or HR has certain group interests, and chooses to hire those who pose no real threat to their power owing to let’s politely say Lower Capacities, or low pay that will lead them to move to another job soon, that is a path for admissions managers to build a mini-empire within the institution as surely as if they’d hired only like-minded types.

    Or in the next institution one works for: consider the rapid rise of concerns about “transgender admissions and retention.” Get a few tranny-student scalps in a not-very-impressive admissions management job, and your attraction/retention numbers are money in the bank when you apply for a better job elsewhere. There’s always some new social engineering fashion to master for profit.

    But admissions units also take direct orders from top admin, Comms.

    Look out for number one is the motto.

    Accurate IME. These days “admission and enrollment management” is considered its own field in the Ed Biz:

    https://www.nacacnet.org/news–publications/Research/career-paths-for-admission-officers-a-survey-report/

    “Undisclosed soft power”–that’s a precise and useful term for what the “second wave feminists” used to call their project of getting inside institutions and changing them via influence that is difficult to document…and harder still to point to and root out for anyone but those with massive power in the institution (board, president, president’s front-office staff).

    Whether it’s sleeping your way to a job (sex/mates), getting in by whatever means and squatting the position (territory), or adoption of the latest fashion in top-down social engineering with money pools behind it (resources), that “soft power” has very real evolutionary roots and consequences.

    Still, top-down, financialized/monetarized corporate, government, and plutocrat (“foundation”) power players issue many of the marching orders that an institution’s president/top officers implement. Those agents of the institution are hired precisely on their promises to deliver what the boards and funding agents want to achieve. That gets passed down the line administratively.

    At public colleges and universities, I’ve watched my entire adult life (often up close) as the funding base has been systematically shifted out of the public’s hands. So we are taxed heavily to support public education that is occupied by people hostile to us who build careers on that animus.

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  151. @Yan Shen
    A follow-up to my comments in this thread and partly in response to other comments I'm skimming in different threads. The fact of the matter is, complaining about Asian Americans or immigrant Asians disproportionately dominating academics in the United States doesn't solve the entirety of the problem.

    Adopting a mentality of insularity and ethno-nationalism doesn't change the fact that we live in a globalized economy. Remember when Japan bashing in the United States was in vogue during the 1980s and early 1990s, when Japan supposedly put a dent in the US automobile and consumer electronics industries? And you had Michael Crichton's novel Rising Sun that somewhat bizarrely read like it could've been titled the The Protocols of the Elders of Tokyo?

    The world's never been more interconnected, whether economically or scientifically. You're never shielded from competition just because you've hiding in some ethnic enclave. So complaining doesn't really solve anything.

    At the end of the day, the question is, who are the value creators in society?

    “Adopting a mentality of insularity and ethno-nationalism doesn’t change the fact that we live in a globalized economy…The world’s never been more interconnected, whether economically or scientifically. ”

    That is such complete BS. Overwhelming majority of immigrants from mainland China are corrupt government officials or businessmen and their offspring, escaping to greener pastures with their ill gotten gains after wrecking their own society with corruption and their polluting factories.

    I’m so tired of Asians coming in here to lecture us about the wonders of globalization and multiculturalism, when in fact nearly all Asian societies are unbelievably insular and mono-cultural, and incredibly racist towards other races esp. people of darker skin. All Asian countries from Japan, China, Korea to India make it nearly impossible for foreigners to immigrate or become citizens. Yet these same groups never hesitate to yell “racist!” whenever any western country doesn’t let them in en masse.

    If multiculturalim is really that wonderful, why doesn’t China open its doors to mass immigration from Southeast Asia, India, Mideast, Africa, Latin America? Practice what you preach. Meanwhile, America’s benefited enough from you Asians, please stay home and benefit yourselves.

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  152. @Anonymous
    @Yan Shen


    You’re probably thinking more of investment banking or other softer areas of finance where it’s more about having an aggressive jock personality.


    No. The algos used to manipulate the markets are not a "soft area of finance." I used the words high level math and manipulation in my comment but you twisted what I said.

    There is evidence of modest Asian participation in the hedge fund AI universe. But according to the test scores Asians should be dominating market manipulation worldwide. Asians are as greedy as anyone else and they love to gamble more than anyone and they have huge populations. So where is the flood of Asian geniuses in the markets? The answer is that there is no flood.

    “Asians are as greedy as anyone else and they love to gamble more than anyone and they have huge populations. So where is the flood of Asian geniuses in the markets? The answer is that there is no flood.”

    We should be thanking God that they are not flooding Wall Street. We’ve already got enough Jews there wrecking the whole world’s economy for their own gains, the last thing we need is more Asians following in their footsteps.

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  153. Yan Shen says:
    @Yan Shen
    Once again, you keep bringing up past history. I get it man. Issac Newton was a great man. Charles Murray mentioned him in his book. Unfortunate Newton died hundreds of years ago, influential as he was. The Arabs had a good run of a few hundred years also, but all of that's in the past. You mention Murray's book. Let me point out that it goes through 1950. We live in 2017. The question is, how will the next 500 years look like?

    Fact of the matter is, increasingly more of the actual value creation R&D science and technology work is being disproportionately done by East Asians today, whether in East Asia or in the US. My point was that holding up Jobs as an example of creative innovation is questionable at best, given that his main strengths were in product and design, as opposed to technical. Both Bill Gates and Steve Wozniack's dad supposedly look down on Jobs. In the Walter Issacson biography Woz's dad apparently felt that Jobs had created shit.

    Even more ironic, since you accuse East Asians of stealing, Jobs has long been accused of taking credit for other people's ideas!

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Steve-Jobs-take-credit-for-some-of-the-inventions-of-others

    The fact that you're still doubling down on Jobs as this paragon of supposed uh American creative and innovative brilliance really goes back to this schism I suggested existed between how East Asians and whites view innovation. Whites are far more likely to subscribe to the Don Draper theory of innovation, while East Asians view innovation primarily through the lens of the technical

    The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple's devices. They're all supplied by East Asian companies.

    Let me save you some time, since this information isn't in Charles Murrays book. Ching Tang, a Chinese American, is often considered to be the father of the OLED. NAND was invented by Fujio Masuoka while working for Toshiba around 1980. If you've been following recent news, one of the big things was Toshiba trying to shed its memory division or something due to financial circumstances and numerous buyers lining up to bid...

    Since Moses thinks so highly of Steve Jobs and in general is an avid believer in what I call the Don Draper school of innovation, let me point out one other irony apart from the fact that as a primarily product and design oriented rather than technically oriented person, Jobs was often accused of taking credit for other people’s ideas.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-was-wrong-about-big-phones-2014-9

    Apple’s phones have always been small compared to those of their Asian competitors such as Samsung. Jobs was famously quoted as saying back in the day that no one would want to buy a big phone.

    On the other hand, companies like Samsung more or less pioneered the phablet, with their Galaxy Note series of phones. One of the things people realized when the iPhone 7 Plus came out was that Apple finally realized that people wanted big phones and that phablets were a thing!

    Now granted, I personally don’t think “pioneering the phablet” category of products is true innovation in the sense that coming out with the next generation of OLED screens is, but since Moses and it seems like many other white Americans are such avid disciples of the Don Draper school of innovation, I just thought it might be interesting to point out that fact!

    Read More
  154. God gave different groups different talents so we can all complement one another’s strengths and weaknesses. Whites are best at service, from public service to professional services to retail. Asians are good at doing the grunt work, from back office work to research and manufacturing. Latin Americans are good at farm work, transportation and construction. Muslims are good at running falafel and kebab stands. Blacks are good at music, entertainment and sports. If we can all just accept these norms, as well as individual exceptions, make the best of our God given talents and stop griping about the talents we don’t have, the world will be a much more peaceful place.

    Also, I don’t think God meant for us to all live in one place. That’s why he created the Tower of Babel and make us all speak different languages. If we could just all stay in our own respective corners of the world and trade goods and services rather than people, the world will be much more peaceful as well. With the advent of telcom and fast shipping, trading is now much easier than ever before. The world is big enough for all of us, just not all in the same place.

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    • Agree: Peter Johnson
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    I think you've missed my point. I agree that multiculturalism isn't an unalloyed good and that in general people are better off and more comfortable living with their own ethnic group. I've stated that I support that vision for the countries of Europe, Asia, and Africa. I've also argued that America has a unique history that means that a certain degree of multiculturalism will always be inevitable, in a way that it may not be for Europeans, Asians, or Africans.

    I think that's a crucial point to understand and accept. In the same way that Singapore's unique history means that it will always be a more multicultural country than say Japan, so too does America's unique history present us with certain realities. That being said, I also agree that immigration and other certain excesses may have gotten out of hand in recent decades. I'm generally in favor of what Sailer would describe as "citizenism", in the sense that I think America should prioritize the well-being of its own citizens over that of the rest of the world.

    Unfortunately, what's done is done. No one who's here legally is going to be kicked out, so it doesn't make much sense to keep pointing to how great things were back in the day, when white Americans were still 90% of the overall population. That's never coming back, so it's better to abandon that Utopian fantasy in favor of a more pragmatic mindset that allows us to move the country forward in the right direction, given where we find ourselves today. This is where I've argued white nationalists like Derbyshire miserably fail. In order to move a multicultural nation forward, you have to unite, not divide.

    Lee Kuan Yew was the consummate race realist, but also the consummate Confucian statesman. He knew that in order to make multicultural Singapore work, everyone had to agree to abide by a certain set of principles. What we need in this country now more than ever isn't the vision of a Coates or Derbyshire or Spencer, but alas that of a Lee Kuan Yew!
    , @FKA Max

    Keynes sounds pretty Alt Rigthish or Alt Leftish to me here
    [...]
    [I sympathize, therefore, with those who would minimize, rather than with those who would maximize, economic entanglement among nations. Ideas, knowledge, science, hospitality, travel--these are the things which should of their nature be international. But let goods be homespun whenever it is reasonably and conveniently possible, and, above all, let finance be primarily national. Yet, at the same time, those who seek to disembarrass a country of its entanglements should be very slow and wary. It should not be a matter of tearing up roots but of slowly training a plant to grow in a different direction.]

    For these strong reasons, therefore, I am inclined to the belief that, after the transition is accomplished, a greater measure of national self-sufficiency and economic isolation among countries than existed in 1914 may tend to serve the cause of peace, rather than otherwise. At any rate, the age of economic internationalism was not particularly successful in avoiding war; and if its friends retort, that the imperfection of its success never gave it a fair chance, it is reasonable to point out that a greater success is scarcely probable in the coming years.


    – https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/interwar/keynes.htm
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/npis-spencer-vs-politcos-hirsh-etc/#comment-1670398
    , @Bliss

    If we could just all stay in our own respective corners of the world and trade goods and services rather than people, the world will be much more peaceful as well.
     
    So when are you going to start the Back To Europe Movement?

    Isn’t that your corner of the world?
  155. dcite says:
    @kaganovitch
    Rest assured that is not an ad by a Jewish org. That's alt-right trolling.

    If it were a true ANTIFA (or similar org) funded the baby wouldn’t be so cute. It would look more like that creature that sings “I’m the baby gotta love me” and hits the dad with a frying pan;
    ANTIFA is part of psychological warfare. You have look carefully to discern parody from actual attempts at influence, but the difference is there.

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  156. Yan Shen says:
    @Liberal hypocrisy
    God gave different groups different talents so we can all complement one another's strengths and weaknesses. Whites are best at service, from public service to professional services to retail. Asians are good at doing the grunt work, from back office work to research and manufacturing. Latin Americans are good at farm work, transportation and construction. Muslims are good at running falafel and kebab stands. Blacks are good at music, entertainment and sports. If we can all just accept these norms, as well as individual exceptions, make the best of our God given talents and stop griping about the talents we don't have, the world will be a much more peaceful place.

    Also, I don't think God meant for us to all live in one place. That's why he created the Tower of Babel and make us all speak different languages. If we could just all stay in our own respective corners of the world and trade goods and services rather than people, the world will be much more peaceful as well. With the advent of telcom and fast shipping, trading is now much easier than ever before. The world is big enough for all of us, just not all in the same place.

    I think you’ve missed my point. I agree that multiculturalism isn’t an unalloyed good and that in general people are better off and more comfortable living with their own ethnic group. I’ve stated that I support that vision for the countries of Europe, Asia, and Africa. I’ve also argued that America has a unique history that means that a certain degree of multiculturalism will always be inevitable, in a way that it may not be for Europeans, Asians, or Africans.

    I think that’s a crucial point to understand and accept. In the same way that Singapore’s unique history means that it will always be a more multicultural country than say Japan, so too does America’s unique history present us with certain realities. That being said, I also agree that immigration and other certain excesses may have gotten out of hand in recent decades. I’m generally in favor of what Sailer would describe as “citizenism”, in the sense that I think America should prioritize the well-being of its own citizens over that of the rest of the world.

    Unfortunately, what’s done is done. No one who’s here legally is going to be kicked out, so it doesn’t make much sense to keep pointing to how great things were back in the day, when white Americans were still 90% of the overall population. That’s never coming back, so it’s better to abandon that Utopian fantasy in favor of a more pragmatic mindset that allows us to move the country forward in the right direction, given where we find ourselves today. This is where I’ve argued white nationalists like Derbyshire miserably fail. In order to move a multicultural nation forward, you have to unite, not divide.

    Lee Kuan Yew was the consummate race realist, but also the consummate Confucian statesman. He knew that in order to make multicultural Singapore work, everyone had to agree to abide by a certain set of principles. What we need in this country now more than ever isn’t the vision of a Coates or Derbyshire or Spencer, but alas that of a Lee Kuan Yew!

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  157. FKA Max says:
    @Liberal hypocrisy
    God gave different groups different talents so we can all complement one another's strengths and weaknesses. Whites are best at service, from public service to professional services to retail. Asians are good at doing the grunt work, from back office work to research and manufacturing. Latin Americans are good at farm work, transportation and construction. Muslims are good at running falafel and kebab stands. Blacks are good at music, entertainment and sports. If we can all just accept these norms, as well as individual exceptions, make the best of our God given talents and stop griping about the talents we don't have, the world will be a much more peaceful place.

    Also, I don't think God meant for us to all live in one place. That's why he created the Tower of Babel and make us all speak different languages. If we could just all stay in our own respective corners of the world and trade goods and services rather than people, the world will be much more peaceful as well. With the advent of telcom and fast shipping, trading is now much easier than ever before. The world is big enough for all of us, just not all in the same place.

    Keynes sounds pretty Alt Rigthish or Alt Leftish to me here
    [...]
    [I sympathize, therefore, with those who would minimize, rather than with those who would maximize, economic entanglement among nations. Ideas, knowledge, science, hospitality, travel--these are the things which should of their nature be international. But let goods be homespun whenever it is reasonably and conveniently possible, and, above all, let finance be primarily national. Yet, at the same time, those who seek to disembarrass a country of its entanglements should be very slow and wary. It should not be a matter of tearing up roots but of slowly training a plant to grow in a different direction.]

    For these strong reasons, therefore, I am inclined to the belief that, after the transition is accomplished, a greater measure of national self-sufficiency and economic isolation among countries than existed in 1914 may tend to serve the cause of peace, rather than otherwise. At any rate, the age of economic internationalism was not particularly successful in avoiding war; and if its friends retort, that the imperfection of its success never gave it a fair chance, it is reasonable to point out that a greater success is scarcely probable in the coming years.

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/interwar/keynes.htm

    http://www.unz.com/article/npis-spencer-vs-politcos-hirsh-etc/#comment-1670398

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  158. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @International Jew

    Today it seems as if a huge fraction of white parents are just convinced that of course they will have to spend an extra $125k to send their kids to a private college in another state instead of to a public college that they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars their whole lives.
     
    Yep, I see this a lot. In fact, they often send their kids to another state's state school! That means paying way more money for no more quality. And these are often people who will really miss that money when they retire.

    they often send their kids to another state’s state school! That means paying way more money for no more quality.

    We just went through this. Other state schools often give a lot of automatic merit aid for good students and many are actively recruiting California students. Our son got offered $21K and $15K/year from U of Az and ASU, respectively, which brought down the cost to under $30K, so less than the UCs and just above the Cal States. ASU is very decently ranked (top 40) in engineering. Additionally, our local private school, Chapman University, also offers automatic aid, too – $29K is their top award I believe, $22K is the second tier. They were able to attract a handful of top (Asian) students (4.5/4.7+ GPAs, 12+ type kids APs) from my son’s high school away from the UCs.

    CARealist – Cal Poly is a large school (around 21,000 undergrads) but it holds class sizes very small. This year it over enrolled by about 800 kids so everyone is doubled and tripled up in the dorms and apartments and yet my son’s Physics II class is 48 kids, Calc II is 50, and English class is 22. *That* is the number one reason I pushed him to accept their offer even though our main focus was on out state options. My husband and I went to east coast private, top 50 nationally ranked colleges and our foundational science/math classes were never that small. Moreover, the student population is currently (they’re working on changing that) majority white and the medium income of the students who go there is around $152K with only ~15% of students coming from homes that make under $65K (very similar to a private school like RPI), giving him as close to a private school experience at a public school price as we can get.

    One thing that bothers me about the UCs is the enormous percentage of students who come from households that make less than $65,000 – hovering about 35% overall (Davis: 37%, San Diego 43%, to name two). This is quite a bit more than other state university systems, too – Oregon State: 25%, Colorado State is at 20% to name two other systems. I’m not sure how the UCs can get away with affording to turn their back on full tuition-paying bright white kids but I’ve come to the conclusion they are actively pushing whites out of the UCs. Hopefully budget realities will eventually catch up with them but seeing how corruptly and ineptly California is run I am not holding my breath.

    (source for economic info here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html?_r=0)

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  159. Bliss says:
    @Liberal hypocrisy
    God gave different groups different talents so we can all complement one another's strengths and weaknesses. Whites are best at service, from public service to professional services to retail. Asians are good at doing the grunt work, from back office work to research and manufacturing. Latin Americans are good at farm work, transportation and construction. Muslims are good at running falafel and kebab stands. Blacks are good at music, entertainment and sports. If we can all just accept these norms, as well as individual exceptions, make the best of our God given talents and stop griping about the talents we don't have, the world will be a much more peaceful place.

    Also, I don't think God meant for us to all live in one place. That's why he created the Tower of Babel and make us all speak different languages. If we could just all stay in our own respective corners of the world and trade goods and services rather than people, the world will be much more peaceful as well. With the advent of telcom and fast shipping, trading is now much easier than ever before. The world is big enough for all of us, just not all in the same place.

    If we could just all stay in our own respective corners of the world and trade goods and services rather than people, the world will be much more peaceful as well.

    So when are you going to start the Back To Europe Movement?

    Isn’t that your corner of the world?

    Read More
  160. LauraMR says:

    I always enjoy these reports. I graduated top of the top and got nothing but rejections (even if I paid!) despite claims that affirmative action was on my side.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Apparently one type of affirmative action which was on your side wasn't as strong as another type which wasn't.
  161. Bliss says:

    The most noteworthy data here are the SAT Math scores at the highest level:

    1. There are almost twice as many asians in the highest percentile than whites, despite there being over 10 times as many whites in America. A very large achievement gap. Maybe the Nazis and Klansmen at Charlottesville should have written “We will not be replaced by Jews….and Asians” on their signs? But HBD dogma stipulates that they deserve what’s coming. Right?

    2. The 2% african-american representation at the highest level in math may be low but it is not neglible. The potential is clearly there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D

    The 2% african-american representation at the highest level in math may be low but it is not neglible. The potential is clearly there.
     
    1. It is negligible - is it maybe 1/7th their representation in the general population

    2. This 2% cohort is not at all typical of garden variety Negroes. There are major advantages to being "black" nowadays so people who are 3/4 or more white are "black", kids raised by their 100% white mothers are black, Igbos from Nigeria are black, Bajans are black, etc. Everyone in this 2% is black except actual slave descended American blacks with 80% African heritage, who are mostly absent .

  162. Bliss says:

    These racial categories paint with too broad a brush.

    The scores for whites are skewed upward by jewish-americans and downward by irish, scots-Irish, poles etc. Whites should at least be separated into immigrants from England, Ireland, Germany, Poland and Italy. Plus of course the Ashkenazi Jews, who punch way above their weight in numbers.

    According to Lynn southern blacks have significantly lower IQ (80) compared to blacks outside the South (IQ 90). Blacks should be separated into those two groups, plus the immigrants from the Caribbean who are probably the highest achieving blacks.

    Asians are painted with the broadest brush here. East Asians and South Asians are very different entities. The Asian category should at least be separated into these two main groups. Plus the Malays of Southeast Asia. They should be represented by immigrants from China, India and Philippines respectively.

    Likewise Hispanics can be sub categorized as mexicans, puerto ricans and cubans.

    Read More
  163. MarkinLA says:
    @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I’m sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    Yes, they are deliberate. You have to read at at least the 10th grade level to even function in college. You have to write at the 9th grade level or the work becomes too difficult. You have to have at least an 11th grade knowledge of math if you intend to be in a STEM field. These white imposed impediments are too much for the average POC.

    Read More
  164. Jack D says:
    @Bliss
    The most noteworthy data here are the SAT Math scores at the highest level:

    1. There are almost twice as many asians in the highest percentile than whites, despite there being over 10 times as many whites in America. A very large achievement gap. Maybe the Nazis and Klansmen at Charlottesville should have written “We will not be replaced by Jews....and Asians” on their signs? But HBD dogma stipulates that they deserve what’s coming. Right?

    2. The 2% african-american representation at the highest level in math may be low but it is not neglible. The potential is clearly there.

    The 2% african-american representation at the highest level in math may be low but it is not neglible. The potential is clearly there.

    1. It is negligible – is it maybe 1/7th their representation in the general population

    2. This 2% cohort is not at all typical of garden variety Negroes. There are major advantages to being “black” nowadays so people who are 3/4 or more white are “black”, kids raised by their 100% white mothers are black, Igbos from Nigeria are black, Bajans are black, etc. Everyone in this 2% is black except actual slave descended American blacks with 80% African heritage, who are mostly absent .

    Read More
  165. @prusmc
    Some schools flaunt the number and percent of students enrolled in AP courses. They pat themselves on the back for high enrollment and then conceal the scores. This means that a large number of 1 or 2 test scores is success and counts as much in the school evaluation as much or more than a few 4 and 5 scores.

    The point is there is raw data on AP exam scores by the exam subject, race, and gender, and usually public, private school status and some more, not other vague statistics reported elsewhere by high schools and other institutions. I’m not talking about the latter sources.

    There’s a good couple decades-ish of archives.

    You can look up for example and see that there are 80% more white males than females with top scores on an AP Calculus exam or any comparison like that, for many recent years.

    Except for some Hispanic students in US high schools not being American citizens, a notable enough number at statistical levels, there is much, much less distortion in AP exam data for problems that do exist in other data, that’s what I’m referring to.

    Again, almost nobody takes the same AP exam multiple times, as with the SAT/ACT, and non-citizen Asian students are not confusingly mixed in with AP score data to nearly the same extent.

    Still nothing is perfect, the AP exams have a much less granular scoring range, and there are self-selection biases, class and demography issues, but it’s a sanity check, particularly on outrageous claims.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I've written about Advanced Placement scores by demographic a lot.
  166. @Krastos the Gluemaker
    The point is there is raw data on AP exam scores by the exam subject, race, and gender, and usually public, private school status and some more, not other vague statistics reported elsewhere by high schools and other institutions. I'm not talking about the latter sources.

    There's a good couple decades-ish of archives.

    You can look up for example and see that there are 80% more white males than females with top scores on an AP Calculus exam or any comparison like that, for many recent years.

    Except for some Hispanic students in US high schools not being American citizens, a notable enough number at statistical levels, there is much, much less distortion in AP exam data for problems that do exist in other data, that's what I'm referring to.

    Again, almost nobody takes the same AP exam multiple times, as with the SAT/ACT, and non-citizen Asian students are not confusingly mixed in with AP score data to nearly the same extent.

    Still nothing is perfect, the AP exams have a much less granular scoring range, and there are self-selection biases, class and demography issues, but it's a sanity check, particularly on outrageous claims.

    I’ve written about Advanced Placement scores by demographic a lot.

    Read More
  167. Hibernian says:
    @LauraMR
    I always enjoy these reports. I graduated top of the top and got nothing but rejections (even if I paid!) despite claims that affirmative action was on my side.

    Apparently one type of affirmative action which was on your side wasn’t as strong as another type which wasn’t.

    Read More
  168. @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    There is a direct contradiction in bitching about opportunity and very deliberately raising an EBT Army of monumental proportions during the Obama years. We won’t go into the the psychology of dependence that goes with it. I hate to break this to you but 90% of everybody faces an uphill climb in being successful, listening to progressives tell you you’re f__ked from the get go “because whitey” and we’re here to help you is a loser’s recipe that will never work. The progressives of course are banking on that.

    Read More
  169. Rdm says:
    @Yan Shen
    Once again, you keep bringing up past history. I get it man. Issac Newton was a great man. Charles Murray mentioned him in his book. Unfortunate Newton died hundreds of years ago, influential as he was. The Arabs had a good run of a few hundred years also, but all of that's in the past. You mention Murray's book. Let me point out that it goes through 1950. We live in 2017. The question is, how will the next 500 years look like?

    Fact of the matter is, increasingly more of the actual value creation R&D science and technology work is being disproportionately done by East Asians today, whether in East Asia or in the US. My point was that holding up Jobs as an example of creative innovation is questionable at best, given that his main strengths were in product and design, as opposed to technical. Both Bill Gates and Steve Wozniack's dad supposedly look down on Jobs. In the Walter Issacson biography Woz's dad apparently felt that Jobs had created shit.

    Even more ironic, since you accuse East Asians of stealing, Jobs has long been accused of taking credit for other people's ideas!

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Steve-Jobs-take-credit-for-some-of-the-inventions-of-others

    The fact that you're still doubling down on Jobs as this paragon of supposed uh American creative and innovative brilliance really goes back to this schism I suggested existed between how East Asians and whites view innovation. Whites are far more likely to subscribe to the Don Draper theory of innovation, while East Asians view innovation primarily through the lens of the technical

    The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple's devices. They're all supplied by East Asian companies.

    Let me save you some time, since this information isn't in Charles Murrays book. Ching Tang, a Chinese American, is often considered to be the father of the OLED. NAND was invented by Fujio Masuoka while working for Toshiba around 1980. If you've been following recent news, one of the big things was Toshiba trying to shed its memory division or something due to financial circumstances and numerous buyers lining up to bid...

    Don’t worry.

    Ching Tang will be forgotten any time sooner. Hollywood is doing a good job of erasing Asians innovations/invention/creation with whitewashing.

    1. A white guy, Harrison Ford, angry, impulsive, mad scientist managing the entire lab, working days and nights, trying to find a very cure he’s been toiling for years while bravely going against the manipulative world of the pharmaceutical companies. A cure for Pompe disease. What a scene where disease-inflicted family profusely thank A white guy for his bravery and discovery.

    In real life –> Yuan-Tsong Chen

    https://pediatrics.duke.edu/faculty/yuan-tsong-chen-md-phd

    http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2010/06/chen-yuan-tsong-pompe-disease-biotech.html

    2. If a scene where a white guy, Jim Sturgess, mentally calculated how much a customer will be paying for their discounted clothes in a split second, will not dazzle your mind, you’d be amazed to learn this story was based on a real life events. The guy was so math-genius, he’s practically made Las Vegas to pay for his college fund.

    In real life –> Jeff Ma

    Any redneck watching those movies in their sleazy apartments on Saturday afternoon suddenly wake up, pumped up for Charlottesville movement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You remind me of all the Hollywood movies where a character known by his fellow nationals to be one of them (e.g. Australian) wss played as an American by an American actor. Mind you, until Meryl Streep proved that American actors could do accents we assumed that the American actor (hired for the name recognition) was allowed to play an American because he couldn't sound like anything else.
  170. @Nico
    Or did it mean that the top 1% of America's population includes 43% of its Jewish population? That seems at least somewhat more plausible.

    Nope. Doesn’t work unless Jews màke up about 80 per cent of the top 1 per centbin the US.

    Read More
  171. @Rdm
    Don't worry.

    Ching Tang will be forgotten any time sooner. Hollywood is doing a good job of erasing Asians innovations/invention/creation with whitewashing.

    1. A white guy, Harrison Ford, angry, impulsive, mad scientist managing the entire lab, working days and nights, trying to find a very cure he's been toiling for years while bravely going against the manipulative world of the pharmaceutical companies. A cure for Pompe disease. What a scene where disease-inflicted family profusely thank A white guy for his bravery and discovery.

    In real life --> Yuan-Tsong Chen

    https://pediatrics.duke.edu/faculty/yuan-tsong-chen-md-phd
    http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2010/06/chen-yuan-tsong-pompe-disease-biotech.html

    2. If a scene where a white guy, Jim Sturgess, mentally calculated how much a customer will be paying for their discounted clothes in a split second, will not dazzle your mind, you'd be amazed to learn this story was based on a real life events. The guy was so math-genius, he's practically made Las Vegas to pay for his college fund.

    In real life --> Jeff Ma

    Any redneck watching those movies in their sleazy apartments on Saturday afternoon suddenly wake up, pumped up for Charlottesville movement.

    You remind me of all the Hollywood movies where a character known by his fellow nationals to be one of them (e.g. Australian) wss played as an American by an American actor. Mind you, until Meryl Streep proved that American actors could do accents we assumed that the American actor (hired for the name recognition) was allowed to play an American because he couldn’t sound like anything else.

    Read More
  172. @Steve Sailer
    Seems implausible.

    You produce, you get invited. Now there is more competition and some of the desired groups are an embarrassment.

    I think it is all culture and motivation. When a kid says he wants to go to college and become a….

    Then gets his gal pal preggers, he is not really interested, having no ability to defer pleasure. A slum goddess can do that to you.

    If you want to do it, it is going to hurt and you can make no mistakes, if you want to reach your goals.

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  173. @Anonymous
    And what's the attrition rate at the top schools for Jews and then also non-Jewish whites?

    Asian over-representation is not impacting blacks/Hispanics all that much according to this data... so whitey is taking the big hit, right?

    Also, massive Asian over-representation was apparently not enough to create an aura of prestige at UC Irvine. Even though it's a great area as opposed to USC. Funny/Not Funny how Asians lag in prestige.

    If we continue with mass Asian immigration our top schools will have all the prestige of Asia. Which is to say not very much.

    It’s all about displacing Whites.

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  174. @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    Blacks have low IQ’s. Jews say Black IQ is equal because then they can use Blacks to genocidally displace Whites. Which they’ve been doing.

    It’s all about displacing Whites.

    How about the elephant in the room: Massively rigged over-representation of non-meritorious Jews at the elite schools at the expense of White enrollment.

    http://whitenationalism.com/ms/ms-45.htm

    Read More
  175. @Lagertha
    Just a theory: I think that UCLA dad wants daughter to mingle with students from the right class. Colleges considered by many to be 2nd or 3rd tier aren't that, anymore to parents and students, as long as the majority of the kids are upper middle class. I can think of 50 colleges in New England that are easy to get into for a very intelligent HS kid, and they are applying to these in droves - so the school becomes more selective. Example: Hobart William Smith, Union, Northeastern, Endicott, Villanova, Providence, Roger Williams (great location), Bentley. Out west, midwest, & south: U of Denver, Marquette, Gettysburg, Baylor, SMU, Hendrix, Rhodes, Roanoke, James Madison, George Mason, Elon, High Point, Furman, Wake Forest, Wofford, College of Charleston, Clemson, many more.

    Virtually all of these colleges have rather steep tuition (or high OOS for public ones), but they are very generous towards top 5% SAT scorers. This fact is now royally ticking off elite U's because they don't think that is fair to give merit money to "rich kids"- kid you not! They feel that the lesser U's should only give money to poor students. I always find this so hypocritical since it is a well known fact that legacies and multi millionaires' kids, many that are just sketchy or average academically, always get accepted. Yet, they don't fill their elite campuses up with many poor urban (hardly ever, rural) kids. They definitely favor majority wealthy students.

    Non-elite U's figured out what works: give money to top 5% students, and fill your school up with students whose parents want them to mingle with other wealthy, well-adjusted very good students; result: college stays viable with full-freight paying students, thus becomes more selective every year. It is sort of brilliant. And, like I said, increasingly, if you are studying something like chemistry at Villanova, you will be in competition with Ivy Leagues grads, but, you may have no debt as you begin your first job...and, you had an absolute blast with the tons of friends you made.

    Here is a weird fact: kids are very unhappy at the Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, etc....many feel lonely; they're surrounded by deeply dissatisfied, offended by something kids, and many find the work too hard. So, many kids want to go to these other U's that have grown in reputation for being full of fun, happy, well-adjusted people. And, parents want the safety and peace of mind from a campus full of normies. Parents and students are alarmed with all the protests, violence, screaming at white kids about white privilege, canceling classes for some consciousness raising event, the cognitive dissonance.

    White kids are not accepted like they once were, into the elite U's, anyway, despite being in the top 3% academically...and I've griped about this before. If you have a hook (being an All-State-All-American in crew, or something) you get in. So, being with ambitious kids at a school which was perceived to be lower tier, is just fine. Perhaps it's a better place to meet more people who will be in the 1-2% earning power bracket, eventually, anyway. Fathers of daughters especially, want to launch their kid into a sea of appropriate suitors...upping their daughter's chances of finding a mate before the corporate ladder.

    Second and third tier Universities/colleges have come to represent a sort of a club where your child can mingle with their socio-economic piers without the threat of protests, grievance collector hysteria, or being screamed at, threatened for being privileged (Dartmouth, Berkeley, etc.). It's almost very 1950's on some of these campuses....especially during football games. In other words, private colleges are increasingly full of students from the top 5 % of socio-economic group anyway, despite the push for diversity, there is little or no diversity of class. I started noticing that students really do just want to simply study, have fun, make friends, get a job, get a boyfriend or girlfriend...and be happy in college. Parents, who will pay mega-bucks, don't want the hassles of today's elite U's zeitgeist. Pretty soon Berkeley will yield less innovators/super stars and become a joke school full of misanthropes.

    An interesting post. Note sp. peer not pier.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Yeah...my duh. English is not my first language, so I make a lot of mistakes like that. By the way, I am now an emptynester and I have witnessed the total bs of college applications at elite U's (I went to one) for 10-12 years...around the time when they stopped accepting many white, non-Jewish boys...now it is happening to girls. It also is happening to Indian and Chinese kids now, who live in select upper income neighborhoods...kid you not.

    When my son almost applied to Stamford (he was All-State-All-American in his sport), he inquired about an interview when they came to our state for that, and, he was told that they do interviews in only certain zip codes. On the website (sure it has been removed by now) they warn parents that they can't piggyback off of a relative's address. In other words, if you live in Westchester County, you're not getting an interview with Stanford.

    Another funny story: my youngest son has a name that is a combo (and hyphenated) of French and English names, kinda' unusual (after a French relative) that many elite U's assumed he was black...kid you not. The main reason they were going crazy over him was not just his athletic achievements (football, primarily) but he was in the top 2% academically, top 1% for SAT's, etc. He had 11 Varsity letters!

    I was just stunned how many athletic recruiters & academic recruiters, were stepping all over each other until they saw this tall, Nordic giant! Reverse racism of some kind. We kept getting all kinds of SJW programs and University programs for tuition reduction, grants, scholarships all for POC! With his unusual name, they thought he was black. Ironically, his first name is very common in the Nordic countries.

  176. Chloe says:

    What exactly is the point of all this? Equal opportunity does not equal outcome. If society feels “Blacks” are treated unfairly, perhaps the question is how? Not why. In 35 years they have found what? Less interest in college by ‘Blacks?” Perhaps their home life has influence on their need to educate. Perhaps in 35 years they have believed in the Liberal mindset and now are so angry it did not work they are blaming Whites & Asians. HELLO..whites also recently voted in a Black Potus for 8 years and that was what? A social experiment? How did that work out? Stop the blame game, start doing what is best for you.

    Read More
  177. Lagertha says:
    @Peter Johnson
    An interesting post. Note sp. peer not pier.

    Yeah…my duh. English is not my first language, so I make a lot of mistakes like that. By the way, I am now an emptynester and I have witnessed the total bs of college applications at elite U’s (I went to one) for 10-12 years…around the time when they stopped accepting many white, non-Jewish boys…now it is happening to girls. It also is happening to Indian and Chinese kids now, who live in select upper income neighborhoods…kid you not.

    When my son almost applied to Stamford (he was All-State-All-American in his sport), he inquired about an interview when they came to our state for that, and, he was told that they do interviews in only certain zip codes. On the website (sure it has been removed by now) they warn parents that they can’t piggyback off of a relative’s address. In other words, if you live in Westchester County, you’re not getting an interview with Stanford.

    Another funny story: my youngest son has a name that is a combo (and hyphenated) of French and English names, kinda’ unusual (after a French relative) that many elite U’s assumed he was black…kid you not. The main reason they were going crazy over him was not just his athletic achievements (football, primarily) but he was in the top 2% academically, top 1% for SAT’s, etc. He had 11 Varsity letters!

    I was just stunned how many athletic recruiters & academic recruiters, were stepping all over each other until they saw this tall, Nordic giant! Reverse racism of some kind. We kept getting all kinds of SJW programs and University programs for tuition reduction, grants, scholarships all for POC! With his unusual name, they thought he was black. Ironically, his first name is very common in the Nordic countries.

    Read More
  178. @27 year old
    Can we ban Asian commenters from these types of threads?

    Asians cheat on tests. Everyone knows it.

    Yes, the cheating is called “study.”

    We invented the standardized test, which Europe later adopted through the British. And in an amazing coincidence, we do well at it at something we designed and literally bred for.

    Read More
    • Agree: Peter Johnson
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    But we, in Finland, are the smartest in the world. Sorry. And we are the most artistically gifted and creative/proven - Sibelius, Aalto, Torvalds, Saarinen, Wirkkala.. and, we are the tallest...the scariest, with our fitness - we have WW2 to prove it, as far as bravery...we have the most beautiful women. Done.
    , @Jim
    Yes, standardized testing is a Chinese invention going back thousands of years and was unknown in the West prior to about 1800. It should be noted though that standardized testing was also unknown in Japan until recent times. I wonder if there is any data showing how Japanese compare with Chinese in performance on standardized tests.
  179. Lagertha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, the cheating is called "study."

    We invented the standardized test, which Europe later adopted through the British. And in an amazing coincidence, we do well at it at something we designed and literally bred for.

    But we, in Finland, are the smartest in the world. Sorry. And we are the most artistically gifted and creative/proven – Sibelius, Aalto, Torvalds, Saarinen, Wirkkala.. and, we are the tallest…the scariest, with our fitness – we have WW2 to prove it, as far as bravery…we have the most beautiful women. Done.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim
    I thought Iceland was supposed to have the most beautiful women?
  180. Monkface says:
    @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    You know what else is invisible? Any evidence or arguments for all of your simplified assertions.

    Read More
  181. Jim says:
    @Yan Shen
    2013 data shows that 13% of Asians scored above a 750 on the SAT, versus 2 percent of whites and basically fewer than 1% of blacks and Hispanics.

    Hypothesis. The aggregate Asian category lumps together South Asians and Southeast Asians. Both groups rank lower than East Asians in terms of quantitative aptitude, the latter much more so. If we could separate out East Asians, we would probably see that decently more than 13% of test takers score above a 750 on the SAT math.

    Certainly lumping Northeast Asian, Southeast Asian and South Asian together is absurd. Like referring to a Han Chinese person in Shanghai and a Russian living in Vladivostok as both “Asian”. Of course terms like “Hispanic” are absurd also. Mayan speaking Amerindians in Guatemala have little in common with the population of Barcelona.

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  182. Jim says:
    @Lagertha
    But we, in Finland, are the smartest in the world. Sorry. And we are the most artistically gifted and creative/proven - Sibelius, Aalto, Torvalds, Saarinen, Wirkkala.. and, we are the tallest...the scariest, with our fitness - we have WW2 to prove it, as far as bravery...we have the most beautiful women. Done.

    I thought Iceland was supposed to have the most beautiful women?

    Read More
  183. Jim says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, the cheating is called "study."

    We invented the standardized test, which Europe later adopted through the British. And in an amazing coincidence, we do well at it at something we designed and literally bred for.

    Yes, standardized testing is a Chinese invention going back thousands of years and was unknown in the West prior to about 1800. It should be noted though that standardized testing was also unknown in Japan until recent times. I wonder if there is any data showing how Japanese compare with Chinese in performance on standardized tests.

    Read More
  184. Jim says:
    @lao gu
    60% of math score above 750 are Asian which are about 6% population of USA. White about 33% score above 750. It safely guess that East Asian students are three times high achieved than the
    Jews, It is amusing.

    But the psychometric evidence does indicate that Ashkenazi Jews are about a half-standard deviation above Northeast Asians in IQ. However Northeast Asian IQ is strongly biased toward quantitative-spatial IQ.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Panda can't believe that for decades the so-called "mainstream IQ researchers" have been still messing apples and oranges around, due to either concerted deliberation or shared stupidity!

    Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic, not a race, they are a tiny group out of "Caucasoid".

    whereas Northeast Asians are not an ethnic but by and large a MAJOR race, so-called "Mongoloid".

    They are apples/oranges in comparison.


    P.S.
    Most SouthEast Asians are NOT Mongoloid, but Mongoloid/Australoid hybrid.
    Most Central Asians are NOT Mongoloid, but Caucasoid & Caucasoid/Mongoloid hybrid.
    Most South Asians are NOT Mongoloid, but Australoid, Caucasoid, & Australoid/Caucasoid hybrid.
  185. Jim says:
    @unit472
    One major problem is that so brilliant are our black geniuses they reduce our societies need for large numbers of highly educated negroes. Afterall, once a Ta-Nehisi Coates has spoken on a subject what is left to be said? Then there is the most brilliant astrophysicist of all time, Neil DeGrasse Tyson. So powerful is this man's mind that not even the mysteries of the universe can fully occupy his time. While the white Ph.Ds at the Weather Channel and National Hurricane Center struggled to come to grips with the hurricane now battering Texas, former planetarium director Tyson, was able to make sense of it all in one tweet. He wrote: ""Don't see much denial of @NOAA climate scientists who have predicted Hurricane Harvey's devastating path into Texas"

    Now I admit I don't see much correlation between a single hurricane and global climate but then I am not a world famous negro scientist either.

    The computer models attempting to predict the path of Harvey over a few days in the future don’t appear to be have been any more accurate than simple guesswork. After Harvey went back into the Gulf all the models were predicting that it would make landfall again in Houston. Instead it made landfall about 5 miles west of Cameron, Louisiana.

    Of course comparing predicting the path of a storm a few days into the future with predicting global climate trends many decades into the future is absurd.

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  186. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Tiny Duck
    I thought it was supposed to be whites that were the big losers in our society? Wasn't that the subtext of the Trump campaign? Just goes to show that the conflict that is being ginned up around race is totally misplaced. The much more serious problem in America today is the inequality of opportunity.

    whites like to tell themselves blacks not only have a level playing field, they are given special privileges. That may be true for a very few, but 90 percent still face a steep uphill climb with lots of impediments that are mostly invisible to whites. I'm sorry to say I think most of these impediments are deliberate.

    Someone peed in his mother.

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  187. @Yan Shen
    Once again, you keep bringing up past history. I get it man. Issac Newton was a great man. Charles Murray mentioned him in his book. Unfortunate Newton died hundreds of years ago, influential as he was. The Arabs had a good run of a few hundred years also, but all of that's in the past. You mention Murray's book. Let me point out that it goes through 1950. We live in 2017. The question is, how will the next 500 years look like?

    Fact of the matter is, increasingly more of the actual value creation R&D science and technology work is being disproportionately done by East Asians today, whether in East Asia or in the US. My point was that holding up Jobs as an example of creative innovation is questionable at best, given that his main strengths were in product and design, as opposed to technical. Both Bill Gates and Steve Wozniack's dad supposedly look down on Jobs. In the Walter Issacson biography Woz's dad apparently felt that Jobs had created shit.

    Even more ironic, since you accuse East Asians of stealing, Jobs has long been accused of taking credit for other people's ideas!

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Steve-Jobs-take-credit-for-some-of-the-inventions-of-others

    The fact that you're still doubling down on Jobs as this paragon of supposed uh American creative and innovative brilliance really goes back to this schism I suggested existed between how East Asians and whites view innovation. Whites are far more likely to subscribe to the Don Draper theory of innovation, while East Asians view innovation primarily through the lens of the technical

    The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple's devices. They're all supplied by East Asian companies.

    Let me save you some time, since this information isn't in Charles Murrays book. Ching Tang, a Chinese American, is often considered to be the father of the OLED. NAND was invented by Fujio Masuoka while working for Toshiba around 1980. If you've been following recent news, one of the big things was Toshiba trying to shed its memory division or something due to financial circumstances and numerous buyers lining up to bid...

    “The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple’s devices. They’re all supplied by East Asian companies…”

    Don’t forget the legendary Largan Precision, founded by Tony Chen and Scott Lin of Taiwan, which currently dominates global high-end smartphones camera lens with more than 450 global patents, surpassing traditional Japanese lens powerhouses.

    Largan is the exclusive supplier of high-end lens for Apple iphones , e.g. the current Apple flagships iPhone 7 Plus and iPhone 8 (and some of Huawei phones lately).

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Actually almost all Samsung smartphones have been using copycat "Largan lens", too. Samsung later got sued of infringe of patents by Largan and they reached an off-court deal...
  188. @PandaAtWar
    "The OLED and NAND flash memory are some of the highest value added parts in many of Apple’s devices. They’re all supplied by East Asian companies..."

    Don't forget the legendary Largan Precision, founded by Tony Chen and Scott Lin of Taiwan, which currently dominates global high-end smartphones camera lens with more than 450 global patents, surpassing traditional Japanese lens powerhouses.

    Largan is the exclusive supplier of high-end lens for Apple iphones , e.g. the current Apple flagships iPhone 7 Plus and iPhone 8 (and some of Huawei phones lately).

    Actually almost all Samsung smartphones have been using copycat “Largan lens”, too. Samsung later got sued of infringe of patents by Largan and they reached an off-court deal…

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  189. Lagertha says:
    @Jim
    I thought Iceland was supposed to have the most beautiful women?

    you, Jim, are absolutely correct.

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  190. Pete22 says:
    @Anonymous
    Underrepresented is another one of those fun liberal terms that's intentionally vague and wide enough for them to play games with. That blacks are in low numbers at institutions of higher learning, esp. Ivy League ones, is indisputable. They use that as 'proof' for their assumption that it must be racism, without the slightest shred of evidence. Never mind the fact that blacks are given effectively hundreds of points of credit on SATs they never earned, never mind that schools now intentionally set out to 'holistically' examine students instead of basing color blind on merit, to give blacks a leg up. Never mind that increasingly scholarship and opportunity after scholarship and opportunity in academia is earmarked for minorities, esp. blacks. Never mind that study after study shows blacks spend less time studying than whites and Asians, despite white America bending over backwards to create tutoring, after school programs, etc focused solely on them. And of course, never mind the IQ gap, no, that couldn't possibly be a source of different outcomes in academia. No, it must be evil white racism afoot.

    The “evidence” is always implied in their usually unstated but long-running assumption that blacks and whites have exactly the same brains.

    That is goes unstated, but is yet foundational to their argument, is their way of recognizing the assumption as a biological (and cultural) law; similar to how gravity is also assumed to exist.

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  191. @Jim
    But the psychometric evidence does indicate that Ashkenazi Jews are about a half-standard deviation above Northeast Asians in IQ. However Northeast Asian IQ is strongly biased toward quantitative-spatial IQ.

    Panda can’t believe that for decades the so-called “mainstream IQ researchers” have been still messing apples and oranges around, due to either concerted deliberation or shared stupidity!

    Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic, not a race, they are a tiny group out of “Caucasoid”.

    whereas Northeast Asians are not an ethnic but by and large a MAJOR race, so-called “Mongoloid”.

    They are apples/oranges in comparison.

    P.S.
    Most SouthEast Asians are NOT Mongoloid, but Mongoloid/Australoid hybrid.
    Most Central Asians are NOT Mongoloid, but Caucasoid & Caucasoid/Mongoloid hybrid.
    Most South Asians are NOT Mongoloid, but Australoid, Caucasoid, & Australoid/Caucasoid hybrid.

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