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  1. AndrewR says:

    On Twitter I’m seeing a lot of wishful thinking that this will finally ignite an anti-Muslim crusade. Even if it was Muslim arson, it’s insane to think that this will wake up the same people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc

  2. peterike says:

    “Civilization” is still the best television documentary ever. Just brilliant.

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is a horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    • Agree: Coemgen, BB753
  3. JimB says:

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap. Also, firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims. I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference. Perhaps this is the fate of all Catholic monuments in Europe if Islamification isn’t stopped.

  4. Aardvark says:

    I might just tune in to the news tonight @ 6 to see how they managed to blame this on Trump.

    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  5. In September 2016, Islamic terrorists made a botched attempt to blow up Notre Dame with a car bomb. I hope this isn’t a follow up attack, as the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center followed the botched one in 1993. At the moment the news is attributing the fire to restoration work being done.

    I visited Notre Dame for the first time two months ago. Generally, sightseeing doesn’t do that much for me, but Notre Dame moved me profoundly. I’m a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, so it wasn’t that, and I don’t think it was just its age, its beauty, or its historical significance. The place had an aura about it, some kind of spiritual power. I’m glad I saw–and felt–it. Perhaps it can be restored.

  6. RickinJax says:

    Thanks for this Steve. Kenneth Clarke is the perfect response.
    Heard Shepherd Smith cut off a French official who mentioned the many churches in France that are desecrated every month. “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate…..”
    Filth

  7. @JimB

    No doubt the restoration crews working on Notre Dame are filled with low wage immigrants given that the government seems to be doing repairs on the cheap

    This makes the most sense of any explanation. Corners were cut, and this is the price.

    And why is the government– the city, or the nation?– doing the repairs? The French haven’t turned in awhile, have they?

  8. AFAIK the French didn’t need it anymore.

    Despite all the right-wing nonsense, such as scrapping the wealth tax, LREM, led by a former “Socialist”, is set to win European elections. Moreover, their elections attract 80% of adults, in contrast to US, where maybe 40% feel stupid enough to validate Trump or Clinton.

    And they were about to switch from right-wing Jew Sarko to “left-wing” Jew DSK. Who needs Christians?

    Just last week, a powerless May had Macron do what she wanted.

    It’s about time to delete France.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
  9. Anon[173] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s a symbol for the era of Macron. The destruction of the French. Unless they immediately started moving the valuable artwork out of the building at first sign of flames, it’s gone for good. The heat will be too great for anyone to survive entering the building to take it out later. The French have never been good at fast response and instant organization during an emergency the way Nordics and Anglo-Saxons are.

    • Replies: @Robert E Lee
  10. Dr. X says:
    @JimB

    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn’t just happen to “accidentally” start the fire… quite coincidental that an iconic Christian church that stood for almost a thousand years just happened to burn a month after the New Zealand thing…

  11. Fire is wrecking Notre Dame Cathedral.

    Mass legal immigration and illegal immigration are destroying European Christian nations.

    Trump is pushing mass legal immigration and illegal immigration.

    Monetary policy has been used to buy off certain generations of European Christians to prevent them from protecting their people and their culture and their nations and their lands.

    Electronic credit conjured up out of thin air is no more intrinsically valuable than the smoke rising from Notre Dame and the greedy bloated disgusting scum born before 1965 are smug with their ill-gotten gains and their knowledge that their actions will demographically destroy all European Christian nations — in Europe and around the world.

    Those born before 1965 who did nothing to stop the mass legal immigration and illegal immigration will deserve the curses of those who come after. That line from Brimelow is powerful and true.

  12. J.Ross says: • Website

    Muslims on social media are posting smiling faces and talking about divine justice.
    https://postimg.cc/grS0qsD5
    A day ago the cathedral of St Denis was desecrated; St Denis is of course tied to the repulse of Muslims in Medieval Europe.

  13. @AndrewR

    Even if it was Muslim arson

    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.

    Christians who have it in for Jews don’t attack Isaiah or Jeremiah.

    JimB’s hypothesis of low wages and standards appears to be the most likely.

    I’m also tempted to channel Jerry Falwell and accept this as an Act of God. The best way to protect churches is to attend them.

    • Replies: @Thea
    , @istevefan
  14. Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances? Aren’t our cathedrals metaphorically burning down every day? The fact that self-styled arch-conservatives call the current regime “the Cathedral” shows how the West is gone already.

    • Agree: Random Smartaleck
    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  15. Anon[173] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr. X

    It’s quite a coincidence that it’s burning a week before Easter.

  16. Thomas says:
    @Harry Baldwin

    Go see St. Peter’s in Rome someday. You’ll know why when you do.

    • Agree: slumber_j
  17. @JimB

    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.
    The mood was light and cheerful despite the crowds. The cathedral was awe inspiring, but probably fails to command enough respect to motivate the French “nation” to rededicate and redirect the refugee budget to its rebuilding though

  18. istevefan says:

    I’ve heard them say it was probably due to renovation work. Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being down that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    Outside of that, I am very upset at what was lost. It’s unreal to think Notre Dame survived the anti-Christian revolution and both world wars. This loss is symbolic of our times.

  19. Emma Watson was born in Paris on this day 29 years ago.

    FWIW

    • Replies: @Kylie
  20. istevefan says:
    @Dr. X

    Good catch. The 15th of March, and now April. And past experience had shown that retaliations aren’t limited by geography.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  21. The destruction of Christendom.

    God help us.

  22. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

  23. It only befits the times.

  24. I, for one, look forward to visiting the new Grand Mosque of Paris that will replace it.

  25. Cortes says:

    Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    ND will be restored.

    And we can console ourselves with the knowledge that the chief fire officer in Paris was close enough to be able to take immediate action:

    “The bells, Esmeralda! The bells!”

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    , @wren
    , @prosa123
  26. @AndrewR

    The blessed mother’s role is the giving and nurturance of Life. Pray first for revival, for nothing can be accomplished without it.

  27. Wilkey says:

    If it is sabotage do you think the government will ever allow the people to know it?

    It’s truly hard for me to believe that the restoration of one of the greatest pieces of architecture on the planet was subject to no greater safety protocols than a remodel at a Jiffy Lube.

    If it is sabotage it it may seem silly to hope that the West will finally wake up to the threat of Islam, but people have a way of responding emotionally to attacks on their culture and heritage in a way they don’t respond to actual, you know, murder.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    , @Colin Wright
  28. The virtue of prosperity, is temperance; the virtue of adversity, is fortitude; which in morals is the more heroical virtue. Prosperity is the blessing of the Old Testament; adversity is the blessing of the New; which carrieth the greater benediction, and the clearer revelation of God’s favor. Yet even in the Old Testament, if you listen to David’s harp, you shall hear as many hearse-like airs as carols; and the pencil of the Holy Ghost hath labored more in describing the afflictions of Job, than the felicities of Solomon. Prosperity is not without many fears and distastes; and adversity is not without comforts and hopes. We see in needle-works and embroideries, it is more pleasing to have a lively work, upon a sad and solemn ground, than to have a dark and melancholy work, upon a lightsome ground: judge therefore of the pleasure of the heart, by the pleasure of the eye. Certainly virtue is like precious odors, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue.

    – Bacon

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  29. Dr. X says:

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    If Muslims did it, the Macron government will never admit it.

    It’ll be interesting to see if they try to use the fire to declare emergency powers to crack down on the Yellow Vests, though.

    Could this become a French Reichstag fire?

  30. @Aardvark

    I hear he’s not covering himself with glory via his tweets.

  31. @istevefan

    The anti-Christian revolution is ongoing.

    • Agree: Barnard, Hail
  32. Holy crap, I don’t watch news, so I really am glad I found out about this. I was there about 1 year ago, and I was so annoyed by all the security stuff at other places in Paris, that I was miffed when the guy told me to take of my cap – I felt embarrassed upon realizing that, no, this was not to check the hat for plastique, but it’s a church, for crying out loud! We stayed over an hour enjoying the place. Here’s the quick post about it.

  33. I always check the date when “some people did something” as Ilhan Omar so cleverly puts it.

    April 15, same date as the Boston Marathon bombings.

    I don’t know if there’s a connection, my knowledge of great Islamic victories or martyrdoms is scant. The Islamists know every event and every date, though. Every time they ‘do something’ you can be sure it’s connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.

    Maybe it’s an ‘accident.’ But if it isn’t it’s going to be harder than usual to memory-hole the arson of one of the defining pieces of architecture in Christendom.

    Maybe they’ll blame the Yellow Vests and put the iron fist down.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Hail
  34. @RickinJax

    Shepard Smith is one of a number of liberals who have key positions on the supposedly conservative Fox channel. Swamp creature Chris Wallace is another.

    • Replies: @Realist
  35. There is no such thing as so-called “Judeo-Christianity.” No eternal truth in the nonsense called “Judeo-Christian.”

    There is such a thing as Jew Bolshevism. Jew Bolsheviks are using mass legal immigration and illegal immigration as demographic weapons to attack and destroy European Christian nations.

    Remember, the Bolshevik Jews who control CBS/VIACOM attacked Richard Spencer because Spencer is talking about WHITE GENOCIDE and WHITE RACE REPLACEMENT.

    Ben Shapiro is an anti-White Bolshevik Jew who pushes mass legal immigration and multiculturalism.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  36. @Anon

    I agree, the nordics and anglos make good slaves. Do not worry, there will always be opportunity for you guys to run into burning buildings for as long as we see fit to have you on this planet. One of the few things you are good for besides breeding females for our enjoyment.

  37. @Houston 1992

    I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans.

    You just mean they were Black, right? I mean, they weren’t from the USA, correct? It’s a weird world, so there’s a possibility you meant exactly what you typed, but I doubt it.

    • Replies: @Cato
  38. Barnard says:
    @Wilkey

    You would think the French government would want major remodel work at Notre Dame to be a high quality, high priority job just because of the tourism draw. Clearly that wasn’t the case, there had already been criticism the work was being done on the cheap. The question in the aftermath will be do the French people still care enough about their culture to demand accountability. I hope that they do, but am doubtful anything meaningful will happen.

  39. The “first daughter of the Church” began repudiating her spiritual heritage nearly three centuries ago. We’re seeing the end stages of the process now. Over the course of the last century, the Christian churches of France and the rest of Europe and Britain have become spiritually empty relics, most valued for the tourist money they draw and next for their artistic and historical significance. They have become soulless monuments to a civilization whose “leaders” and the social parasites promoted by those leaders are intent on destroying.

    I’ve read news reports suggesting that it was deliberate government policy to staff the Notre Dame restoration teams with moooslim immigrants. This was done despite several recent, and very serious attempts by moooslim fanatics to destroy the building and its contents. I have no doubt that we will eventually discover that it was, in fact, mooslim vandalism that destroyed this building.

    But it doesn’t really matter, unless this serves as a wake up call to Europe and Europeans and their descendants around the world. If things continue as they are, Europe and its settlements will become ever more barren, soulless vestiges of a once great civilization. Better to utterly destroy these vestiges so that something new and spiritually alive can grow in their place.

    My only prayer is that, whatever usurpers of European civilization may arise will extirpate the corrupt leadership and cultural parasites that brought this tragedy to pass so that neither these leaders nor parasites nor any possible descendants will survive to perpetrate another such desecration of a great civilization.

  40. El Dato says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    RT says:

    “French firefighters ‘not sure’ if Notre Dame fire can be stopped”

    WTF! All Twin Towers mustr go!!! Jesus Christ.

    https://www.rt.com/news/456623-notre-dame-renovations-deterioration/

    The peak of the church had been undergoing a major €6 million renovation — and the fire is thought to be linked to the revamp, French media reported, quoting the Paris fire brigade.

    Structural problems have plagued the old building for years, including dangerously eroded stone, broken gargoyles and fallen balustrades, André Finot, the cathedral’s spokesperson, told the New York Times in 2017. Finot told the newspaper the situation was “spinning out of control.”

    The Friends of Notre Dame foundation has even been seeking to raise a massive €150 million ($180 million) from French citizens and Francophiles in the US to help foot the bill for a major facelift. The French government itself allocates about €2 million each year for upkeep of the building.

    Well, Russia managed to burn a Moscow library some time back, in 2015

    Fire in major Russian library destroys 1m historic documents: Leading scientist speaks of cultural ‘Chernobyl’ after blaze ravages 2,000 sq metres of Moscow institute holding papers dating to 16th century

    One would think officials would rather perform organizational kabuki than do their jobs. One would not be wrong.

  41. Alfa158 says:
    @Dacian Julien Soros

    Maybe the cathedral herself has some sentience and decided that there was no longer a place for her in the former France. Why continue to exist as an little more than an attraction for art aficionados and tourists who want to gape at her glories? When she is no longer fulfilling her role as a religious center? When the country around her is being overrun by the people Charles Martel fought to repel? When the race who built her no longer cares about religion or it’s own heritage and is heading for replacement? Better to let herself burn than be converted to a mosque.

    • Agree: fish, Republic
  42. Dumbo says:

    I think it is sabotage, but not by Muslims. Likely an inside operation like 9/11. Or organized by Macron to deflate protests.

    Did anyone notice that Facebook was down yesterday almost all over the world, just like before the NZ attacks?

    Ok, ok, I will wear again my tinfoil hat, and go back to comment on the Moon Hoax article. 😉

    But seriously, this looks like it was planned.

    • Replies: @Gary
  43. St Denis is the ultimate target for vandalism, seeing that so many kings are buried there. Including Charles Martel.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Kylie
  44. Dumbo says:

    I agree that a Church that is no longer frequented by the faithful and is just a secular touristic attraction, was dead long ago, so in the end, Notre Dame had already “burned” much before.

    If Christianity goes, so goes Europe.

    We are witnessing something similar to the collapse of the Roman Empire, in real time.

    Only, what follows may be even worse.

    • Replies: @brandybranch
  45. Matra says:
    @Bill Jones

    Trump started the day giving advice to Boeing on branding then moved on to giving the French advice on putting out the fire. Then there’s the Tiger Woods stuff. Cringe.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  46. @Cortes

    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @PhysicistDave
  47. Ibound1 says:
    @peterike

    No. They will be repurposed as mosques, as per government policy. And Islamic twitter is full of happy emojis today about this fire.

  48. @Desiderius

    Desi, thank you for posting this.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  49. wren says:
    @Cortes

    Disney’s Clopin:

    Morning in Paris, the city awakes

    To the bells of Notre Dame

    The fisherman fishes, the bakerman bakes

    To the bells of Notre Dame

    To the big bells as loud as the thunder

    To the little bells soft as a psalm

    And some say the soul of the city’s the toll of the bells

    The bells of Notre Dame.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  50. Realist says:

    The destruction of Notre Dame is a horrendous historic loss. It does appear a lack of care and situational awareness are to blame for the tragedy.

  51. @Bill Jones

    He was trying to give them fire-fighting advice. Giving advice is how boomerdads ( all dads, really) show they care. It’s absurd and unusual but so are the times.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  52. Realist says:
    @Harry Baldwin

    Totally agree. Smith is despicable in so many ways.

  53. DFH says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Technically not a king.

    I apologise and pre-emptively disavow this post, but I had to satisfy my inner pedant.

  54. @Buffalo Joe

    Steve’s choice of response is indeed a lively work upon a sad and solemn ground.

    Sublimely appropriate.

  55. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    The Islamists know every event and every date, though.

    On their calendar. Our April 15th would be a different date every year.

    I don’t know about the French, but their Latin cousins are fond of being streets after dates.

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/direction-signs-for-iconic-avenues-in-buenos-aires-picture-id1127311728

    Whereas we…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gropecunt_Lane

    • Replies: @Ghost of Bull Moose
  56. I recall Bush Sr. saying, when asked why he didn’t go ahead and invade Iraq, “I’m not putting our troops in the middle of a country that is still fighting disputes that began a thousand years ago!”

    That reminded me of some French history. Back in 732 AD, when they stopped an historic Muslim scourge intended to islamify the whole of Western Europe. If the French couldn’t handle them, Western Europe was over. For good. After some horrific battles, some involving french soldiers killing scores of Muslims with their bare hands, the french soldiers waded into the semi-defeated Muslim morass, and slayed their commander. The Muslim attack fell apart, and the French chased their sandy asses all the way back to Spain.

    The French are the only reason all Americans aren’t all primarily speaking Farsi right now.

    Recalling Bush Sr.’s remark… I wonder if the Muslims are still pissed off about that?

    • Replies: @europeasant
  57. I visited Notre Dame years ago and took Communion there, building was splendiferous and awe inspiring. There is a weekly TV show called “Ancient Aliens” where they contribute the construction of every notable edifice, such as Ankor Wats or Machu Pichu, to Aliens. But never the cathedrals of Europe. The Cathredal across the European Continent are, to me, the greatest example of European glory. So sad to see Notre Dame fall.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  58. Anon7 says:
    @peterike

    Muslims don’t demolish what they can use!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  59. El Dato says:
    @Alfa158

    This randomly moves me to re-read Greg Bear’s Petra

    “God is dead, God is dead .
    . . . Perdition! When God dies, you’ll know it.”
    -Confessions of St. Argentine

    As near as I can discover, Mortdieu occurred seventy-seven years ago. Learned sons of pure flesh deny that magic was set loose, or even that the Alternate had gained supreme power. But few people could deny that God, as such, had died.

    All the hinges of our once-great universe fell apart, the axis tilted, cosmic doors swung shut, and the rules of existence lost their foundations. I have heard wise men speak of the slow decline, have heard them speculate on the reasons, the process. Where human thought was strong, reality’s sudden quaking was reduced to a tremor. Where human thought was weak, reality disappeared completely, swallowed by chaos.

    Legend has it that it was the arch existentialist Jansard — crucifier of the beloved St. Argentine — who, realizing his error, discovered that mind and thought could calm the foaming sea of reality.

    Most humans were entirely too irrational to begin with. Whole nations vanished or were turned into incomprehensible whirlpools of misery and depravity.

    It is said that certain universities, libraries, and museums survived, but to this day we have little contact with them.

    Our Cathedral survived. Rationality in this neighborhood, however, had weakened some centuries before Mortdieu, replaced only by a kind of rote. The Cathedral suffered. Survivors – clergy and staff, worshipers seeking sanctuary – had wretched visions, dreamed wretched dreams. They saw the stone ornaments of the great church come alive. With someone to see and believe, in a universe lacking any other foundation, my ancestors shook off stone and became flesh. Centuries of rock celibacy weighed upon them. Forty-nine nuns who had sought shelter in the Cathedral were discovered and were not entirely loath, for (so the coarser versions of the tale go) Mortdieu had had a surprising aphrodisiacal effect on the faithful. Conjugation took place. No definite
    gestation period has been established, because at that time the great stone wheel had not been set twisting back and forth to count the days. Nor had Kronos been appointed to the chair, to watch over the wheel and provide a baseline for everyday activities. But flesh did not reject stone, and there came into being the sons and daughters of flesh and stone, including me.

    Those who had fornicated with the gargoyles and animals were cast out to raise their monstrous young in the highest hidden recesses. Those who had accepted the embraces of the stone saints and other human figures were less abused but were still banished to the upper reaches. A wooden scaffold was erected, dividing the great nave into two levels. A canvas drop cloth was fastened over the scaffold, to prevent offal from raining down, and on the second level of the Cathedral the more human sons of stone and flesh set about creating a new life.

    I’m an ugly son of stone and flesh; there’s no denying it. I don’t remember my mother. It’s possible she abandoned me shortly after my birth. More than likely she is dead. My father – ugly, beaked, half-winged thing, if he resembles his son – I have never seen.

  60. Thea says:
    @istevefan

    This is the final culmination of the anti-Christian revolution. It is fittingly symbolic of the West today.

    Norte Dame has been a tourist trap for generations inspiring no more thought of the sacrifice of Christ than a visit to Stonehenge would.

    Headtbreaking but not surprising really

  61. @Alfa158

    Brilliant, sir! Absolutely brilliant! Even if the cause is a construction accident, the destruction of Notre Dame de Paris is a symbol of a Europe that is rapidly ceasing to exist.

  62. @Buffalo Joe

    Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    Würzburg’s cathedral was destroyed by terrorism, but it’s back now.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Würzburg_Cathedral

  63. • Replies: @Clifford Brown
  64. TheJester says:

    Even if the Macron government uncovers it was “arson-by-Muslim”, it will never admit it. It would fear an adverse reaction against the Muslim invaders (a.k.a. Muslim immigrants) bent on destroying Western Civilization. Talk about (a lack of) courage! Sweden is experiencing a similar problem … with a similar outcome. As for Great Britain, it’s already a diverse, multicultural corpse.

    What Macron and his globalist supporters don’t realize is that “all of France is on fire”. The “fire” in Notre Dame is a parody of France. When that “fire” is over, I suspect the end result will be similar to Notre Dame … an empty shell representing the skeletal remains of France as a nation.

  65. @JimB

    I can’t help thinking the fire was either due to malice or low IQ, and that the slow response of the Parisian fire department is the result of indifference.

    And any explanatory angle you care to take on this comes back to the ongoing decay and foolishness of the West.

  66. Thea says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Ultimately everything is an act of God no matter how insignificant. A sparrow doesn’t fall from the sky outside His will. What are we to learn from is perhaps the more urgent question.

  67. Kylie says:
    @Bob Smith of Suburbia

    Henry James was born in New York City on this day 176 tears ago.

    Of Notre Dame, he writes in The Ambassadors, “He[Strether] trod the long dim nave, sat in the splendid choir, paused before the cluttered chapels of the east end, and the mighty monument laid upon him its spell.”

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  68. Arioch says:

    …and when “it would take decadesd to reconstruct it” – it would be done to the extent of being politically correct tourist attraction. Westeing money on anoything above it would hardly be done.
    Thinking practically, it would be better to have reconstruciton never completed. Half-destroyed place would attract tourists much better than a perfect remake.

    I was thinking about “the Mosque of Notre Dame” – the going down there was much more noble. But, in reality Notre Dame was not granted even that.

  69. @Harry Baldwin

    Pray the rosary, lapsed Catholic, and save your soul!

  70. @Reg Cæsar

    The relics that must have burnt are not replaceable. Neither is the artwork.

    Moreover, the deeply vibrant religious culture that gave birth to Notre Dame is now dead. As far as I know, they did not even offer the traditional Tridentine Mass at the cathedral. Instead they offered the banal Novus Ordo Mass, the disastrous fruits of which are evident to all thinking persons.

    Any piece of art reflects its period of creation. The world of 800 years ago is not replaceable without a thorough-going Catholic religious counter-revolution to strike at the evils of the modern world and resist them with the social reign of Christ as it existed, relatively speaking, in that time. Absent that, no, Notre Dame Cathedral cannot be replaced!

    It is the preposterous arrogance of modern man to suggest that he can rebuild such a church when his attitude towards God and life is in opposition to the spirit of Christendom. This is something the mere “secular” nationalist can never understand. He cannot duplicate full beauty. Modern “secular” Westerners are not really Western, and never can be.

    Notre Dame Cathedral was built to be a CHURCH, not a MUSEUM piece, which is what the modernist “Catholic” attitude produces: it produces an empty husk!

    The Catholic Faith, though, like its savior, will be resurrected. But there will be many dark days like this – and darker still – before this time of scourging comes to a merciful end.

  71. @peterike

    It is. It is also spelled with the British “s”. Give the toffs their due.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation_(TV_series)

    • Agree: jim jones, Coemgen
    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  72. @RickinJax

    Re Filth Columnist

    Perhaps we should be grateful that he didn’t say, “Sir, sir, take [or “walk”] that hunch back.”

  73. • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  74. dearieme says:

    God has just passed judgement on the French antics designed to frustrate Brexit.

    Great is the way of the Lord.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
  75. Muse says:

    This is a horrific cultural loss. Some of the comments speculating that Muslim workers or someone else intentionally set fire to Notre Dame are shameful. Wait for the facts.

    These kinds of accidental fires happen frequently. As an example, see the Chicago Pilgrim Baptist Church below.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrim_Baptist_Church

    Here is another church fire on the Southside of Chicago:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/multiple-alarm-fire-scorches-landmark-chicago-church-shrine-of-christ-the-king-sovereign-priest/

    Notre Dame has a leaded roof, which requires heat to melt the lead when repairing the roof. That might have been the cause. Maybe it was something else. No doubt the construction workers will report what happened on their shift.

    • Replies: @RationalExpressions
  76. Jack D says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Perhap French construction workers who had a bit more wine than they should have with lunch?

    It’s really much too soon to blame this on Muslims. It’s only going to make you look foolish later on for having jumped to conclusions when it turns out that Pierre done it.

  77. Dtbb says:

    The thing is a man made mountain. The wood parts burn but the stones will remain. The spire was probably unstable and being shored up by wood. The building isn’t going anywhere.

  78. Jack D says:
    @istevefan

    It’s also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There’s the same amount of evidence as y’all have for pinning it on Muslims.

  79. neutral says:

    In some ways this is a merciful ending of it. The fate of France is certain, Notre Dame was either going to turn into a mosque or at best become a soulless tourist attraction. Had the people who built it seen visions of the future they would have thought this was the best way out.

  80. RickinJax says:

    What odds the Pope comes out in favor of rebuilding in a modern style more inclusive of other religions?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  81. Jack D says:
    @Bill Jones

    He suggested dropping water from a plane – the French fire service replied that this would damage the structure – they’re probably right but at this point it looks like a total loss so maybe he was right – perhaps a damaged structure is better than no structure. Sometimes it takes some “out of the box” thinking by someone who is not an “expert” to come up with the right answer.

    Our fire hoses perhaps pump a little more than Roman bucket brigades but judging by the results are little more effective. You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond “pour water on it”. One a structure is fully involved, with current technology the best that they can do seems to keep the fire from spreading to nearby buildings and sometimes not even that. Near where I live a large block square apt. complex under construction caught fire due to a spark from a welder’s torch. Not only did it burn to the ground but it set the neighboring occupied complex on fire and burned that to the ground too.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  82. Yak-15 says:
    @Alfa158

    I like how the NYT was able to find a crying Muslim to interview.

    I look forward to the new interfaith unity temple that happens to only give Islamic sermons to be built.

  83. It’s a pity that it’s unlikely that anyone will make use of leftover materials used on this gigantic monument to power and the gigantic parasitic grift that is organised religion. They’ll pump more tax money into it, to continue the grift.

    With all the productivity grifted for its production and maintenance, quite a few starving Parisians of the time could have been fed, housed and clothed.

    Also… despite the fact that Jeebus is a myth, a bunch of people pretend to give a fuck what he thought about things.

    Like all charlatans, the dude spoke in riddles and was inconsistent as fuck… but it’s likely he would have seen that edifice for what it was/is: a huge expensive mechanism for earthly power-projection. He was kinda against huge public displays of piety, right?

    Hard to tell: you’re not supposed to hide your lamp under a bushel (Matthew 5:14–15; Mark 4:21–25; Luke 8:16–18) , but you also shouldn’t make gratuitous public displays of devotion that are seen of men (Matthew 6:5).

    Anyway… as I say – inconsistent. But gilded palaces with statues – probably crosses the line on the “seen of men” thingy.

    Maybe he had his DadSelf do an Act of Yahweh to show the Catholics that he meant “Suffer the little children” to mean less anal rape – although why he would wait until Catholic paedophilia was trending on Twitter, is right up there when it comes to ‘mysterious ways’.

    The site should be put to a useful purpose – turned into apartments or a shopping centre. The same is true for every palace, cathedral and shrine – people are ‘moved’ by the architecture[1], and do not see the underlying crime: use of scarce resources for institutional self-aggrandisement, that could have been used to keep people alive. They are like a beautiful woman with syphilis.

    Eisenhower said the same sort of thing with respect to military spending –

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

    This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people…

    The Catholic church (and all churches) should be taxed – in fact since they got most of their property by seizing it from dissidents, the church should be expropriated for fraud (and child molestation).

    [1] on ‘grand’ architecture: have you ever noticed that in most towns of appreciable size, the overwhelming preponderance of imposing architecture is either government buildings, banks, or churches? No surprise that the world’s biggest grifts can afford to build palaces to themselves.

  84. If you see this man on your building buy insurance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Petit

  85. bored identity strongly believes that Macronophiliacly morbid MSM will let us know in 3,2,1… that the flambéing was a joint terror-enterprise involving domestic Yellow, and Real Fight Red Vests.

    Meanwhile, don’t be surprised if ever compassionate Javanka offers a refuge status, or at least some bell-hoping H-1B visa, to the most vulnerable victim of this latest culturicide:

  86. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr. X

    You gotta wonder if a Muslim construction crew didn’t just happen to “accidentally” start the fire…

    Muslim’s don’t generally attempt to destroy Christian holy sites. Jesus is revered in Islam.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  87. @Bill Jones

    There is literally nothing that Trump can say that some people won’t declare monstrous.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
  88. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Jack D

    Whoever they are, they’ve been doing this for a month. Evidence is never necessary to condemn white supremacism.

    • Replies: @South Texas Guy
  89. Tiny Duck says:

    I am betting false flag by islamophobes.

    France is notorious for muslim hatred and pretty much all terrorism and violence is caused by right wing white men.

  90. @Harry Baldwin

    Nearby, on the same island, is Sainte Chapelle. That will still be there and visible. Go, next time in Paris, during the afternoon. You won’t remember Notre Dame.

  91. 216 says:
    @Jack D

    The amount of BlackHate ™ is still sickening

  92. @Desiderius

    It is also spelled with the British “s”

    It’s not a ‘British’ “s”, it is the ‘Non-US’ “s”. It is the way the word is properly spelt, and the decision was made by the people who invented the language.

    Like centre, colour, defence, emphasise, grey, haemorrhage, mould, and sulphur.

    Given my druthers there would be no fixed orthography and we would revert to the relative free-for-all situation that existed historically; all that matters is that ideas are transmitted reliably, not that life is made easier for primary school teachers. (Obviously that idea can’t extend to keywords in computer languages yet).

    • Agree: bored identity
  93. Kylie says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t think our usual suspects would decide on a target that subtly–or that ineffectively. You don’t really think torching St. Denis would have the same impact on the West as torching Notre Dame, do you?

    • Replies: @Olorin
  94. J.Ross says: • Website

    Not all the triumphal tone is coming from Muslims.
    https://postimg.cc/qhJNqkfY
    (The Jews didn’t “manage” without their central Temple: for about a century they gave up in their identity, then they completely restructured their religion.)
    https://postimg.cc/fVvZLYwz/cf749367
    Notice the people calling out this genius are Jewish.

  95. L Woods says:
    @AndrewR

    In fairness, the last straw isn’t always something of much significance in itself (ie, the cartridge oil that ignited the Sepoy Mutiny). Still, I expect whitey will do exactly what he’s best at: nothing.

    • Replies: @bomag
  96. I can ‘t say I’m too upset, sadly. When I last visited in 2001, the Church looked heavily restored. At least one side had over 50% new facing stone.
    If it had been Chartres, Rheims or Mont St Michel, that would have been a catastrophe.
    Notre Dame de Paris, only a great loss.

    • Replies: @David
  97. Thinker says:

    Maybe this will spur the French into returning to church, and toss out Macron.

  98. @Jack D

    It’s also Tax Day. Perhaps it was ignited by American anti-tax libertarians. There’s the same amount of evidence as y’all have for pinning it on Muslims.

    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks, recently including one intended to blow up Notre Dame.

    That said, he don’t you consider shutting up, instead of carrying on with your demonstration of arrogance, powered by astonishing ignorance?

    We’ll “get” that you’re a moron, so you really have nothing left to prove here.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @snorlax
  99. tyrone says:
    @JimB

    Are they dancing in the ban-lieu?…….enquiring minds want to know……just making way for the mosque?

  100. anon[389] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR

    I’m waiting for the suggestions that the restored cathedral be multi-faith, but of course with no Christian symbols or imagery, as that might offend people of other faiths. Might as well throw in a minaret while they’re at it. And “Notre Dame du Prophète” has a nice ecumenical ring to it, I think.

  101. @Jack D

    Plus – nobody needs to do such a thing. It can simply happen. Bad luck.
    (“Do not set fire to the nobility’s mansions / before The Hawk has cried” (old song from the Southern German Peasants War in the 16th-century meaning: Be cold blooded – the more critical the situation, the more so…).

  102. Quasimodo predicted all this

    • Replies: @Patrick in SC
  103. Anon[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    I wouldn’t be surprised that preservation codes made it impossible to kit out Notre Dame with anything that would have made it more fireproof. Installing a sprinkler system might have saved it, but there’s no way a rigid French bureaucracy would have allowed it.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  104. @RickinJax

    Fox News identifies Philippe Karsenty as an elected official but according to Wikipedia he ran for office in 2012 and lost. He seems to be best known for this:

    Muhammad al-Durrah Controversy

    Karsenty came to public attention in 2004, when he was sued for libel by the French television network, France 2, after accusing the network of having broadcast a staged footage of the reported killing of a 12-year-old Palestinian boy, Muhammad al-Durrah, during a gun battle in the Gaza Strip in 2000. France 2 won its case in October 2006, but the judgment was overturned by the Paris Court of Appeal in May 2008, with France 2 refusing to release the full footage taken by their stringer on that day. France 2 has appealed the decision to the Cour de cassation, France’s highest court. In February 2012, the Cour de cassation cancelled the ruling of the Court of Appeal which had acquitted Karsenty. On June 26, 2013, the Paris Court of Appeals once again convicted Karsenty of defamation, and fined him €7000.

  105. @AndrewR

    Everyone on this side of the old Iron Curtain are the kind of “people who shrugged their shoulders at Bataclan/Nice/Hebdo/etc”. It’s just as true of Americans as it is of the French.

    • Replies: @Anon
  106. Vinteuil says:

    Back when I used to make classical music YouTube videos, I made one for Notre Dame de Paris:

    The music is Pérotin’s Sederunt Principes, one of the first two pieces of 4-part polyphony, believed to have been written for performance in the half-finished Cathedral in 1199.

  107. snorlax says:
    @Jack D

    Maybe you could cut off oxygen by putting a giant tarp or tent over a structure (like fumigation, but fireproof), optionally pumping in CO2 to speed up the process.

  108. @istevefan

    Your point on fire watches are spot on. There should also be prestaged gear for fighting a fire. The standard fire trucks in the city wouldn’t be able to reach the roof either.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  109. ATBOTL says:

    A few strange characters are having mixed feelings about the fire.

    The front entrance to Notre Dame was adorned with an antisemitic allusion but no you're right, I should weep for this devastating loss. pic.twitter.com/O9pt0ge2cg— The Jewish Worker (@JewishWorker) April 15, 2019

  110. Arclight says:

    People do dumb stuff on construction sites all of the time, and add in that this building had a lot of bone-dry timber and likely little to no fire suppression, it wouldn’t take much to send the entire thing up.

    That said, it does feel like a metaphor – a monument to the genius and culture of our forebears goes up in smoke thanks to incompetent efforts to restore it.

  111. The mayor being a socialist and running the city for half a decade hasn’t proved very effective in doing things right; unless increases in rats, homelessness and graffiti are markers of success. Now this disaster.

  112. @Desiderius

    No one who ever stood before it or within its walls thought he would outlive it.

    I understand the emotion but: –

    – Cathedrals, like old towns from the Middle Ages in general, can burn down any day.
    I live in a town with a Cathedral from the Middle Ages – and I lived nearby for a few years in a house named Zum Distel (at the thistle) from 1352, in the Konradi’s lane… we spoke lots of time about fire. And old Sacristan Schatz from the Cathedral speaks about fire, whenever he accompanies a group of people into the attic of the Cathedral of Our Beloved Women in Constance.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  113. Hail says: • Website
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Every time they ‘do something’ you can be sure it’s connected to some grudge from the middle ages or earlier.

    John Morgan
    @licht_alberich

    In the comments sections of news sites and on social media, Muslims in France are mocking the fire at Notre Dame Cathedral. Seriously, if these people hate their hosts and their culture so much, they need to be sent home.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  114. Olorin says:
    @Kylie

    I admit having a queasy spell, reflecting on how Notre-Dame had been repeatedly translated from a loved, specific, ancient local site of Christian/matriarchal devotion…

    …to a veritable globo-infotainment memecluster removed from any sense of the sacred and increasingly identified with the “sanctuary” movement. (And a grotesque translation of the site’s holy anima into a pretty gal kidnapped by a misunderstood monster.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunchback_of_Notre-Dame#Drama_adaptations

    Even bearing in mind this and other sites’ role as infotainment theatres of their various ages, it occurred to me that ending its existence via live globo-infotainment newsmedia seemed evocative of something other than accident.

    Cui bono?

    Has Pope Marx or one of his fancy-hatted administrators or bankers changed the insurance status of the place lately?

    Any of them heavily invested in historic restoration, construction…or in fire suppression technology (such as a restored cathedral will have in eight-figure amounts)?

    Is it true that clots of statuary and paintings had been removed “for restoration” recently? Where are they?

    It’s not as though we’re unfamiliar with world-renowned landmarks being destroyed live on TV for insurance and political profit, and to shift balances of power. To clear the way for a rebuilding project that would be very difficult if approached organically/normally. To rally people around those major works.

    It’s not as though we’re unaware of the fact that today is the anniversary of the Boston Marathon bombing and the monthiversary of the Christchurch mosque attack. Nor that it is “holy week” for Catholics.

    It isn’t as though we can’t think of reasons why all three streams of Abrahamics wouldn’t gain from destroying the place.

    It’s not as though historic objects/site conservation and restoration hasn’t been a total clusterfugg since the early 1970s. Including the already-accomplished destruction of the men and women whose embodied and family-/community-transmitted memory and craft skills created and maintained these objects and sites for millennia.

    That control was systematically moved into the faraway towers of academia, museums, and “philanthropy” as these institutions went full Globalismo. (They use Ford and Rockefeller and UNESCO and bankster bucks to hire low-bid teams of unskilled or semiskilled workers who do in fact do things like kick over lamps in cattle-pens, oops, and burn down cities.)

    No, wait, that was Chicago in 1871.

    Anyway, you get my drift. And if I recall correctly Victor Hugo’s novel about the site served as a rallying point for rebuilding the church after the destruction wrought upon it post-1789.

    I realize the faithful care about the relics and such, but my first thought was for this:

    https://mypipeorganhobby.blogspot.com/2008/11/organ-notre-dame-paris.html

    Spiritus.

    (FWIW, word on the street in Peshtigo, Wisconsin, used to be that the 1871 Chicago fire, as well as the concomitant one in that little Wisconsin city and two others, was started deliberately by agents of lumber speculators from Singapore, Michigan. Which clearcut the surrounding forests to rebuild Chicago, Peshtigo, and I forget the other two cities…then became a ghost town eaten by wind and sand. Some developers wanted to build a resort atop the ghost town’s dunes a few years back, but I don’t know if they got the go-ahead.)

  115. Liza says:

    1. The Reims Cathedral ( Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Reims) is a close replica of the one burned in Paris, so maybe that’s where the tourists will be off to, now.

    2. I’ll bet the ghost of Dominique Venner is wandering thru the ruins.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  116. Where did the fire start, and how?

  117. @Harry Baldwin

    I hate to say it, but to me what’s most impressive is all the work involved, both structural and detailed. It’s ain’t no big-box store.

  118. @Jack D

    ‘You would think that with all the technology that we have that firefighting would have advanced beyond “pour water on it”.’

    I believe there is an advanced firefighting technology called a ‘sprinkler’. It will be interesting to see if they were proposed as an upgrade for ND in the past and who decided they were uneccessary.

  119. @RickinJax

    “Sir, sir, we will not allow you to speculate…..”

    Yeah, like it’s a court of law rather than just some nightly infotainment.

    Filth!

    AGREED, Rick. (My punctuation and bolding.)

  120. @Reg Cæsar

    Chartres nearly suffered the same fate.

    All the glass from the cathedral was removed in 1939 just before the Germans invaded France, and it was cleaned after the War and releaded before replacing. While the city suffered heavy damage by bombing in the course of World War II, the cathedral was spared by an American Army officer who challenged the order to destroy it.

    Colonel Welborn Barton Griffith, Jr. questioned the strategy of destroying the cathedral and volunteered to go behind enemy lines to find out whether the German Army was occupying the cathedral and using it as an observation post. With a single enlisted soldier to assist, Griffith proceeded to the cathedral and confirmed that the Germans were not using it. After he returned from his reconnaissance, he reported that the cathedral was clear of enemy troops. The order to destroy the cathedral was withdrawn, and the Allies later liberated the area. Griffith was killed in action later that day on 16 August 1944, in the town of Leves, near Chartres.

    Still, here’s Orson Welles with the grey pill:

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  121. @Vinteuil

    The decline of mainline Protestantism is most immediately apparent in their abandonment of polyphonic congregational singing.

  122. J.Ross says: • Website

    A Danish anon claims that Muslims in Denmark are now rioting in response to a “Fleming Rose” type:

    Rasmus Paludan, edgy free speech activist, went to our multicultural capital and held a Quran throwing competition.

    Muslims from all the nearby kebab shops and paki kiosks went full war mode and shut down around 25% of the city. Some of them were even wearing ISIS clothing:

    https://www.bt.dk/krimi/uromager-iklaedt-toej-med-is-logo-bekymrende-siger-ekspert

    After dozens of fires, riots and 30+ arrests the police had to pull their guns which finally made the Muslim crowd disperse:

    https://ekstrabladet.dk/112/betjente-foelte-sig-truet-trak-vaaben-paa-noerrebro/7597591

    Later “someone” called the police about “youth” jumping on a car. When the police arrived and went to check the car a timed carbomb went off:

    https://newsbreak.dk/by-i-knae-betjente-traekker-pistolerne/

  123. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Hail

    The problem is that the rulers of France feel the same as the Muslims, but have some tact.

    • Agree: Kylie
  124. Bubba says:
    @istevefan

    Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite.

    Unless they are trained firefighters who know exactly how to stop a fire, then a fire watch in this case is useless. The “fire watch” most likely consisted unskilled and untrained workers who ran away in panic.

    Unfortunately the loss of this masterpiece will soon be forgotten faster than the horrific Batclan and Charlie Hebdo massacres.

  125. @Vinteuil

    Beautiful.

    I looked up the composer and was hit with this:

    Perotinus Magnus (fl. c. 1200), (Pérotin the Great, Magister Perotinus) was a composer from around the late 12th century, associated with the Notre Dame school of polyphony in Paris and the ars antiqua musical style.

    Notre Dame school – Wikipedia:

    The Notre Dame school or the Notre Dame school of polyphony refers to the group of composers working at or near the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris from about 1160 to 1250, along with the music they produced.

  126. Rapparee says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    And why is the government– the city, or the nation?– doing the repairs?

    Since 1905, the French state owns the building, operating it on behalf of the Catholic Church. Separation of Church and State means something very different in France than in the US.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  127. Hodag says:

    Pasatiempo on the golf channel – Western Collegiate.

    • Replies: @sanjoaquinsam
  128. J.Ross says: • Website

    A newly released episode trailer for an anti-white CBS drama “The Good Fight” stars a Nigerian actor ‘Nyambi Nyambi’ directly advocating for the unprovoked assault of white people, days after a 5 year old boy was thrown off of a balcony by a black man. The trailer recieved massive backlash on both youtube and twitter after being called out and it was taken down on both platforms by CBS.

    Trailer Links:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20190413194638/https://twitter.com/thegoodfight/status/1116815576347713537

  129. @Cagey Beast

    Cagey Beast asked:

    Why are there people on Twitter now who express sadness at Notre Dame burning when they work to destroy the West in all other circumstances?

    Becuase, in the end, they know they are members of a civilization, a unique civilization that, for all its flaws, has the most spectacular achievements in human history.

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts .

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    The coming together around this tragedy reminds us that sometimes sanity wins out.

  130. Ugh, if t was intentional, the evil destroyers couldn’t have picked a more meticulous, beautifully crafted example of Western, historical architecture to take down. If it wasn’t intentional, who was in charge of guarding that irreplaceable structure? It is not a good idea to put a family-friendly, above-firing babyvacationer, taking tons of time off for the kiddos, in charge of something that cannot be replaced. They can never, ever get that back, and it was the prime, architectural symbol of France, the world’s #1 art nation. Wonder what it would take for France to get serious about protecting its national treasures, rather than just protecting its top 20% of globalist elites and their cheap-labor servants? Wonder what it would take for them to get serious about addressing the roots of their social / economic unrest? Many of those top 20%ers will see a cut in their income from reduced tourism, and those incomparable French architectural and artistic masterpieces are the biggest reason for all of that tourism money.

    How many years of careful design and painstaking, laborious effort did it take to produce that masterpiece?

    Disgusting!!!!

  131. Vinteuil says:
    @istevefan

    Others familiar with such work say there are always guys on fire watch with extinguishers and such whenever work is being done that could cause a fire. Additionally they say a fire watch is kept 2 or more hours after such work is done to ensure smoldering embers don’t ignite. Given how anal the Euros are on safety issues, e.g. mandatory yellow vest in car, I doubt this was a construction mistake.

    But given the nature of the ruling class, do you really think they will report the truth even if was terrorism?

    I, too, doubt the official story – and for the same reason.

    I’ve spent a lot of time in Europe, over the last few years, and I’ve been constantly impressed by the meticulous care they’re giving to the restoration of their past – whether in Paris, or Ghent, or Firenze.

    I find it hard to believe that this is mere carelessness. I find it easy to believe that The Powers That Be are lying to me.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  132. @Buffalo Joe

    Buffalo Joe wrote

    :Cortes, I like your comments, but Notre Dame would have to be replicated, not restored,structurally a total loss.

    The news reports say most of the masonry still stands; the spire is gone, but the towers stand.

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    It may take a long time.

  133. prosa123 says:
    @Cortes

    Fires happen, even in great historic buildings. Within my lifetime I recall blazes in York Minster and Windsor Castle.

    Just yesterday there was a fire in the basement of New York’s enormous (and unfinished after 120+ years of construction) cathedral of St. John the Divine. It didn’t appear to cause too much fire damage but the smoke was bad enough that the Palm Sunday services had to be held outdoors.

  134. Ann K says: • Website
    @Houston 1992

    African Americans in what way?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  135. J.Ross says: • Website

    But good thing we’re so reasonable, we get like reasonableness points or something.

    Screengrab from the TV show “The Good Fight”:

    https://postimg.cc/3002BKLR

  136. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dieter Kief

    TIME columnist Christopher J. Hale
    @chrisjollyhale tweeted, “A Jesuit friend in Paris who works in #NotreDame told me cathedral staff said the fire was intentionally set.” and then he deleted the tweet after a few minutes. || #NotreDameFire #mepolitics

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Real_Matty_Mac/status/1117849686147100672

    • Replies: @Jack D
  137. Issac says:
    @Andy

    Nothing he wrote was reasonable, but reading daily open borders propaganda makes it appear so.

  138. Polynikes says:
    @Jack D

    Or make you look like a fool for missing the obvious.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  139. When I saw online it was under renovation I assumed it was yet another construction laborer who is lazy/stupid/drunk/high screwing up and starting a fire.

    But the amount of defense the left is throwing up has me thinking they think it is Islam means peace.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  140. @Vinteuil

    There was the fire at La fenice in Venice that was set by contractors who were going to suffer a penalty for late completion. People do stupid things.

    Will every cathedral with a wooden roof start planning to install fire extinguishing pipes tomorrow? This happened within memory in York, so it should not be a surprise.

  141. Polynikes says:
    @PhysicistDave

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    • LOL: Chrisnonymous
  142. This, from the Turkish Foreign Minister…

    He deleted his previous Tweet, in which he said:

    Friends, stop! If you burn them all down, we can’t turn them into mosques like Hagia Sophia!

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  143. @PhysicistDave

    France will restore it. They have no choice.

    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

  144. Anonymous[349] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dieter Kief

    My g-g-g-g-great-grandfather renovated the floor of the women’s choir at the Freiburger Muenster. The most interesting aspect of the project was the exhumation of Berthold V, the last of the Zaehringers, from the crypt under the stone floor. The project report indicated he was over 7 feet tall.

  145. @Vinteuil

    Wonderful. Thanks for posting.

    “Sunt lacrimae rerum et mentem mortalia tangunt”
    -Virgil Book I, line 462 of the Aeneid

  146. @WowJustWow

    Henry Adams’ Mont-St. Michel & Chartres is a good book and might be a comforting read at this time.

  147. @Reg Cæsar

    That should read “tithed”, not “turned”.

    Damned Kindle. It also recognized the names Gehry and Libeskind, but not Macron. What gives in Seattle?

  148. Bubba says:

    Quelle horreur! Unless it is a disciple of Benjamin Henry Latrobe, then fuggedaboudit.

  149. slumber_j says:
    @Houston 1992

    I was there a month ago today with the wife and kids and had similar impressions. Really jarring and awful that this has happened.

  150. @Jack D

    bored identity strongly believes that, at this point, simply pointing Acckmed’s Butter-knife at Reg Caesar is pointless.

    You know why?

    ‘Cause bored identity not only strongly believes, but also <i.knows that Pierre is plagued by Pierromanic tendencies caused by prolonged exposure to radiation from Crescent,Star,& Black Space Rock:

    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3201b6be7b060f31f96cdbae5b7a3599

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Vogel

    Not to mention:

    https://history.yale.edu/people/pierre-islam

    So, Reg’s razor is maybe dull, but it’s still a razor.

  151. @Reg Cæsar

    … Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry …

    Yes, the alienu prayer in glass and steel. A stainless steel and glass tumour will be added to Notre Dame and the Argentine anti-Pope will squeal with delight when the drawings are shown to him.

    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  152. @Lawyer Guy

    The Barcelona terrorists ultimate plan was to blow up Gaudi’s Sacred Family cathedral.

    But there are a lot of church arsonists and they have a lot of different motivations. And everybody is saying this wasn’t arson.

    • Replies: @SDMatt
    , @JimB
  153. Bubba says:
    @Vinteuil

    Thanks! That was wonderful!

  154. Western says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    It will be a fake. It looks like it has been gutted. It will be like a print of a famous painting, a poster of Van Gogh’s Sunflowers. It will never be the same. Part of the mystique is knowing that it was built of over 2 centuries without the aide of modern construction techniques.

  155. Anon[941] • Disclaimer says:

    What we’re seeing is the 2nd fall of Rome at the hands of the barbarians. Except that this time, the Western Civilization of Europe and America is Rome. The Romans didn’t think something as powerful and warlike as Rome could fall, but it did.

  156. Anon[395] • Disclaimer says:

    off topic

    Muh helots

    Trump Administration’s Refugee Limits Leave Meatpacking Plants Struggling To Find Enough Workers

    Afflictions like this are common in the meatpacking industry, where the rate of injury is 2.5 time higher than the national average, according to the Department of Labor. But refugees like Basar, who’s still learning English, have few options for employment.
    JBS pays a starting wage of $13 to $15 an hour, plus benefits. That’s why, according to a report by the Fiscal Policy Institute, the meatpacking industry has the fifth-highest concentration of refugee workers, behind taxi drivers and truck drivers.

    https://www.kcur.org/post/trump-administration-s-refugee-limits-leave-meatpacking-plants-struggling-find-enough-workers#stream/0

  157. notanon says:

    lots of arson attacks on churches in France so i wouldn’t be surprised if this was another

    but more importantly i think it will be believed to be arson even if it isn’t.

    (what effect that will have, if any, who knows)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  158. Ben Shapiro asked his followers to familiarize themselves with the philosophy behind the cathedral. This drew a harsh response from Josh Marshall, who called Shapiro a buffoonish ignoramus. “While building was just underway, the King despoiled the Jews of France of all their property and expelled them from his kingdom.”

  159. I find it incredible that there wasn’t a night watchman on duty. Was he asleep?

    Then I read, ‘I visited ND 2 weeks ago. The security guards were African-Africans…’

    Let’s not leap to conclusions, but…

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  160. nebulafox says:
    @Polynikes

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do. In Islam, Jesus, while emphatically mortal (because there is no God but God… that was the whole point of the faith from the very beginning in 600s Arabia) is considered a forerunner prophet to Muhammad who will come again at the end days.

    I’d be cautious about jumping to conclusions here.

  161. @Wilkey

    ‘…If it is sabotage it it may seem silly to hope that the West will finally wake up to the threat of Islam,…

    It’s almost pathetic that people think Islam is the threat we face.

    If enough really do think that way, then there is no hope.

  162. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    First reports are often wrong. This is what is called “hearsay” – a friend of a friend told me. Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable. Everyone needs to be patient – the fire has to be out before the arson investigators can go in safely.

  163. @Anon

    I went to look at Notre Dame in 1980, but I don’t recall the interior so perhaps I didn’t go inside. The interior of Chartres cathedral out near Versailles is one of the chief glories of Europe, so it would be a challenge to put in modern pipes without ruining it.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Anon
  164. nebulafox says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    The fact that the government in charge of the second largest army in NATO openly states that under no circumstances must their co-ethnics in Europe assimilate to Western culture and eulogizes Ottoman conquests in Europe is one of those things that should be more concerning to the powers that be…

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
  165. @PhysicistDave

    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already. I am guessing this some sort of incompetence. However, back maybe 10 years ago, I read an article about a developer in Paris who wanted to tear down Notre Dame and build high-end apartment complexes. His argument was that the cathedral no longer served enough people to justify taking up its valuable real estate. So, it’s possible there was something nefarious going on.

    When I was a small boy, my father had a colleague in art history who traveled to Paris every summer just to investigate and document the small features of the facade of Notre Dame. That cathedral must be one of the most-documented architectural structures in the world.

    The Temple of the Golden Pavilion in Japan was burned down in the 1950s. It took 5-6 years for it to be rebuilt, but as far as I know, it was rebuilt to exactly its previous condition. I think the actual construction took about a year, so I assume the Japanese spent about 5 years doing research to make sure they go it right.

    When the World Trade Center reconstruction was first being discussed, one columnist in National Review (this was back before the Defenestration of Derb, when I was still reading it) said the WTC should be rebuilt exactly, but with the addition of Vulcan cannons mounted on the roof. That was pretty much my feeling as well. In the actual event, we ended up with a horrible wound in the center of New York City that (1) capitulates to the perpetrators by letting their destruction stand (so to speak) and (2) invites Americans to keep the feelz going instead of rebuilding and getting back to work. Plus, it took forever to finish.

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei’s glass Louvre Pyramid. Imagine Notre Dame’s two towers with the Soumaya Museum rising up behind them in place of the former spire!

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @PhysicistDave
  166. @notanon

    Keep in mind that there is a lot of church arson in America and almost none of it is Islamic. Disturbed people who like fire and don’t like God do some of it.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Jack D
  167. @Jack D

    Yes. Well, that’s true, but I thought it was very interesting that Aupetit, the archbishop of Paris, made a point of saying that he had received condolences from the chief rabbi of Paris. That seemed like a very pointed rebuke of omission. Perhaps the Catholic hierarchy has some insight in the matter.

  168. @Western

    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

  169. @nebulafox

    Maybe the recently retired CIA man, Mike Morell needs to go on PBS again and speculate about killing Turks the way he did about Russians and Syrians? That seems to be the way Washington deals with things now days.

  170. Jack D says:
    @Polynikes

    A stopped clock is right twice a day. I didn’t rule out that it was Muslim arson – it’s just that we have no proof right now. Given that it was a construction site, it’s much more likely that it was construction related – construction workers burn buildings down all the time.

  171. @Dr History

    Some kind of white metal head just got arrested for setting 3 black churches on fire in Louisiana. Firebugs are a threat everywhere. Joe Wambaugh wrote a book about a cop in SoCal who had been turned down for the fire department so he set stores on fire, including one my mother shopped at, and then would call in the first report from just down the block.

  172. This is a tragedy, no question. But even today’s secular French have enough sense to restore Notre Dame.

    Watching the videos of the flames and their destruction, I had a couple of thoughts. Even von Cholitz, the primary Kraut in charge of 1944 Paris, didn’t destroy the cathedral (nor other major monuments and places, nor the city).

    Second thought: Rabelais had a character piss from atop Notre Dame onto the square and a crowd below. Wasn’t it something like a flood? That characters urinary system’s services would have been appreciated today 🙁

    If you’ve been there and looked up, it makes you wary. Was it Gargantua or Pantagruel, can’t recall.

  173. Anonymous[263] • Disclaimer says:
    @PhysicistDave

    Keep telling yourself that.

  174. Paul says:

    How’s that multicultural thing working out in France?

  175. t says:

    Does this mean Jews will still be talking about the golfacust in 2720?

    • Replies: @t
    , @AnotherDad
  176. nebulafox says:

    If anybody hasn’t reported it yet, Steve, al-Aqsa in Jerusalem also burnt.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Jack D
  177. @Tom Scarlett

    Ben Shapiro was trying to peddle the “Judeo-Christian” nonsense. Josh Marshall was right to call bullshit on it. Of course Marshall doesn’t stop to ask whether the King of France was right to expel the Jews because he’d turn into a pillar of self-hating salt or something if he did.

  178. @Polynikes

    Polynikes wrote to me:

    What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?

    Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    , @Kylie
  179. J.Ross says: • Website
    @nebulafox

    “Most Muslims” aren’t terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn’t exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren’t serving in it.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    , @Yoopy
  180. @Louis Renault

    I was shocked at all the artifacts and works of art still stored inside the building. I hope this is a wake-up call to other such places around Europe.

    Back in the Edo period, fire was such a danger in Japanese cities that townspeople built special fire-resistant out-buildings called kura. Europe needs to adopt this strategy as well. Cathedrals like Notre Dame could be storing their valuables in underground bunkers.

  181. Polynikes says:
    @nebulafox

    “Most” Muslims don’t commit acts of terrorism. But a disproportionate of them do, enough so, that mass immigration into the west is a bad idea.

    “most” blacks don’t commit murder. But the difference between 3/100k murders and 33/100k is the difference between civilization and the ghetto.

    Why must I be “cautious?” Are the good think police going to arrest me if I’m wrong? Don’t be a concern troll.

  182. Jack D says:
    @Steve Sailer

    There is (or was) a “attic” space between the ceiling vaults you see from below and the roofline above. This could be sprinklered without anyone seeing it.

  183. notanon says:
    @Steve Sailer

    yes – however i’m thinking about your thing about countries like Turkey where everyone believe in conspiracy theories.

    i’m coming to the view that when a population completely loses faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class they end up believing the worst possible explanation for any event.

    so imo the key metric here is not what actually happened but if it was Muslim arson what is the chance the French media-political class would allow it to be reported? my guess is zero and that zero is why people will come to believe it was muslim arson (even if it wasn’t).

    • Agree: Cortes
    • Replies: @anon
    , @notanon
  184. FLgeezer says:
    @Jack D

    >First reports are often wrong. This is what is called “hearsay”

    It wouldn’t surprise me to find (((them))) blaming it on Iran. That would be sufficient justification to mix it up with the mullahs, which (((they))) have been advocating for for about two decades.

  185. J.Ross says: • Website
    @nebulafox

    Interesting. But this sounds much smaller, and precluded from revenge arson by being too close in time.
    https://www.newsweek.com/notre-dame-fire-aqsa-mosque-1397259

    The Marwani Prayer Room is located underneath the southeastern corner of the Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, which contains both the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque. Sheikh Azzam al-Khatib, director general of the Jerusalem Waqf and Al-Aqsa Mosque Affairs Department, told Jordan’s Al-Mamlaka TV that the fire broke out in the courtyard and preliminary information suggested that it may have been caused by children tampering in the area.

  186. Polynikes says:
    @Jack D

    ” construction workers burn buildings down all the time.”

    They do? Where do you live?

    I have no idea what started it. Seems silly to not discuss possible Islamic terrorism as a potential cause–at least as much as these catastrophic construction fires, anyway.

  187. Jack D says:
    @Ann K

    He said African -African. Paris is full of African-Africans from the former French colonies.

    • Replies: @a reader
  188. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    There was a minor fire in the area called “Solomon’s Stables” which is under the platform on which al-Aqsa sits. The mosque itself did not burn and the fire is out. It was apparently set by Muslim children playing.

  189. What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge?

    Look up the word forebears.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  190. Jack D says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Church fires are very hard to put out. The structure is often not occupied and by the time anyone notices the building is fully involved. It’s usually one big open space and once it gets going there’s no stopping it until all the fuel is consumed.

  191. @Rapparee

    That sweeping legislation of 1905 took the heart out of France, setting the stage for her regular humiliation since.

    First by the Germans, then by the Americans, now by the Muslims.

  192. @Colin Wright

    I find it incredible that there wasn’t a night watchman on duty. Was he asleep?

    He had a chiropractor’s appointment.

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  193. @Steve Sailer

    Euclid had no need of number.

  194. @Steve Sailer

    No, that’s typical Josh Marshall, one of the original dicks on the internet (along with DeLong and Leiter).

  195. @Reg Cæsar

    The question was rhetorical. PDave’s come a long way.

  196. @Steve Sailer

    They built Notre Dame doing construction arithmetic with Roman numerals. How did they do that?

    Trial and error. Cf. Beauvais.

    Beauvais Cathedral: the gravity-defying church

    Falling Buttresses: Beauvais Cathedral and the Limits of Gothic Architecture

    • Replies: @James Speaks
  197. “The France that cries and the France that laughs”

  198. Daniel H says:

    Rude, untoward and inappropriate for me to say at this moment, but when Notre Dame is rebuilt I hope they don’t rebuild the spire. Notre Dame is stunningly beautiful, the spire was added 180 years ago, and detracts from the beautiful symmetry of the church as designed and crafted. And the spire looks like one of those new-fangled cell phone towers with, garlanded with microwave devices. I hope that the rebuild will do justice to this magnificent achievement.

  199. Alfa158 says:
    @Western

    The Benedictine monastery at Montecassino was reduced to gravel by the Allies in WW2, but was perfectly rebuilt in a relatively short time to brand new condition including all the sculpture, paintings and gilding . The only problem is that everything looks new and shiny with none of the patina and wear of an old building so it just doesn’t have the same impact of the original, founded 1500 years ago. The Benedictine Abbey in Melk Austria is virtually a copy and you can feel the difference in their antiquity. (The Benedictine monks ran one of the first major franchise operations. When they referred to Golden Arches they weren’t kidding about the gold part.)

    • Replies: @Western
  200. Jack D says:
    @Polynikes

    You want the cathedral so you can make it into a mosque – see Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. And you want the mosque so you can make it into a cathedral -see the Mosque of Cordoba.

    • Replies: @SDMatt
  201. BB753 says:

    Dear Muslim terrorists:

    Please choose other less beautiful Paris monuments for your arsons. May I suggest for your next “coup” the horrendous Centre Georges Pompidou.
    Thanks in advance

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Georges_Pompidou

    • LOL: Desiderius
  202. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Some interesting coincidences: Today is Yom HaAliyah:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaAliyah

    Yom HaAliyah (Aliyah Day) (Hebrew: יום העלייה‎) is an Israeli national holiday celebrated annually according to the Jewish calendar on the tenth of the Hebrew month of Nisan and also observed in schools on the seventh of the Hebrew month of Cheshvan, to commemorate the historic events of the Jewish People entering the Land of Israel as written in the Bible, which happened on the tenth of the Hebrew month of Nisan

    https://www.newsweek.com/notre-dame-fire-aqsa-mosque-1397259

    “Jerusalem’s Al-Aqsa Mosque Fire Burns at the Same Time As Flames Engulf Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris”

  203. What does a Muslim country want with a cathedral?

    A connect-the-dots mosque.

    Turks push to turn iconic Hagia Sophia back into a mosque

    Kemalists had made it a museum in 1935. Not long after they changed the name of the city.

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
  204. @(((They))) Live

    “Quasimodo predicted all this.”

    A Sopranos fan!

  205. SDMatt says:
    @Steve Sailer

    In Homage To Catalonia Orwell wrote:

    For the first time since I had been in Barcelona I went to have a look at the cathedral – a modern cathedral, and one of the most hideous buildings in the world. It has four crenellated spires exactly the shape of hock bottles. Unlike most of the churches in Barcelona it was not damaged during the revolution – it was spared because of its ‘artistic value’, people said.

    I think the Anarchists showed bad taste in not blowing it up when they had a chance, though they did hang a red and black banner between its spires.

    In fact most of the figures at the Rosary doorway on the Nativity Facade were destroyed and later had to be replaced.

    Gaudi of course is interred in the crypt. The Anarchists liked to dig up clergy and desecrate their bodies. I hope he was left alone.

  206. snorlax says:
    @Dr History

    Wrong, since American Libertarians have not staged organized terrorist attacks

    Oklahoma City comes to mind.

  207. Moses says:

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    Close Dave, but a bit off. Allow me to rephrase:

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to subvert and take control of the material abundance West through demographic invasion.

    Muslims certainly do not want to “become” our feminist pussy-hat wearers or open celebration of homosexuality.

    They just want our stuff.

  208. @Daniel H

    Oh, I was wondering about the spire. It seemed a bit much with all the else that’s going on.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  209. @Liza

    Based on the little exposure I had in some Architectural History and Medieval Art courses I would argue that the cathedrals at Reims and Amiens equal, and in some ways surpass Notre-Dame de Paris.

    Personally, I prefer the asymmetry and excess of Reims to the neater, tidier, perhaps even a bit sterile structure at Amiens.

  210. @peterike

    Meanwhile, the loss of Notre Dame is horrendous. But given current trends, in 20 or 30 more years, the demolition of the great cathedrals in France, Germany, England and a few others will be government policy.

    It’s going to be a lot more than the great cathedrals. We have a civilization to destroy!

  211. Moses says:
    @PhysicistDave

    It is also worth remembering that most people in the rest of the world do not hate the West: they want to be the West.

    Close Dave, but a bit off.

    Muslims certainly do not want to “become” the West. The West exalts that which they despise — feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality, non-burqa-wearing women, interest-bearing accounts, etc.

    They just want our stuff.

    And they will get it through their ongoing demographic invasion and high reproduction rates.

  212. @Reg Cæsar

    Mrs Macron just announced the finalists will be Daniel Libeskind and Frank Gehry. Cast your vote today!

    Neither!

    H.R. Giger is the only man who can do this job properly!

    • Replies: @Liza
    , @Anonymous
  213. Wilkey says:
    @PhysicistDave

    “What use do we have for the Parthenon? Or Stonehenge? Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.”

    Pretty sure he was asking that as a joke. However, victorious conquering Muslims know exactly what to do with a Christian cathedral, especially the greatest of them.

    The sad truth is that if they choose to restore Notre Dame – and politically that’s the only tenable option – by the time they get around to finishing the work, two or three generations from now, France could very well be majority Muslim, and there’s an even better chance whites will be a racial minority.

    If anything good could come of this it’s the reinvigoration of the French people’s sense of themselves as a people, through an awareness of their heritage. Not exactly holding my breath, but it could happen.

  214. @Cagey Beast

    Commenter Jack Strocchi said the other day, “Post-modern art is thus the deepest reflection of liberal resentment of our ancestors achievement – it is in essence an act of vandalism.”

    Seems to fit (((Libeskind’s and Gehry”s))) architecture to a tee.

    • Agree: Liza
  215. Western says:
    @Alfa158

    They might as well rebuild Notre Dame in Las Vegas next to the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, and Venice canals.

    • Replies: @gabriel alberton
  216. @nebulafox

    You’d be surprised. Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.

    Really?

    Not two weeks ago I had half a dozen Muslims in a so-called “moderate” Muslim country tell me to my face that the Holy Trinity is a, “a joke,” followed by much hearty laughing.

  217. SDMatt says:
    @Jack D

    The Mosque of Cordoba started life centuries earlier as the Basilica of St Vincent.

    • Agree: songbird
  218. @Reg Cæsar

    Freemasons memorized construction techniques and dimensions that had worked previously. They did not understand theory. Theory did not come about until after Newton.

  219. bomag says:
    @Western

    Best option is to rebuild, even if it is a copy. Not much in this day would be up to replacing a copy of Notre Dame.

  220. Vinteuil says:
    @Tom Scarlett

    Wow – Ben Shapiro isn’t sufficiently ethnocentric for Josh Marshall.

    One hardly knows what to say.

    • Replies: @216
  221. @Jack D

    Jack D is right. Many fires have been started by roofers who use blow torches to melt the tar when laying down roll roofing. Fire can get out of control very quickly. I know.

  222. Moses says:
    @Steve Sailer

    It is possible to do multiplication, division, addition and subtraction using Roman numerals. Cumbersome, but the method was known to the Romans and, I assume, medieval French.

    http://turner.faculty.swau.edu/mathematics/materialslibrary/roman/

  223. Moses says:
    @Tom Scarlett

    Notre Dame burned to the ground whatever whatever.

    All I want to know is the history behind Notre Dame factored into Jewish persecution?

    Everyone knows an event is only important given how it affects the Jews.

    • Replies: @Uncle Remus
  224. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Kenneth Clark said “not perhaps the most lovable of cathedrals, but the most rigorously intellectual facade in the whole of Gothic art…”

  225. @Jack D

    Not under Jack D’s watch:

    “Not on my watch,” Shepard Smith said scolding Philippe Karsenty, a French elected official who questioned the “politically correct” narrative that the Notre Dame fire was an accident.

    “Even the Nazis didn’t dare destroy it [Notre Dame cathedral],” Karsenty said. “And you have to know for the last year we’ve had churches desecrated each and every week all over France so of course you will hear the story of the politically correct which will tell you it is probably an accident.”

    Shepard Smith immediately cut off Karsenty — “Sir. Sir! Sir! We’re not going to speculate here of the cause of something for which we don’t know.”

    Shepard Smith would not let the guest speak and eventually ended the call saying, “No sir, not here, not on my watch!”

  226. @Reg Cæsar

    It truly is an unfortunate accident of history that such a remarkable man (Mustafa Kemal) was born as a Turk. If not for that, the Turks would have been crushed in WW1 and the western third of modern Turkey would now be in Greek hands. Istanbul would once again be Constantinople.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  227. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    Given that it was a construction site, it’s much more likely that it was construction related – construction workers burn buildings down all the time.

    Except this isn’t just a construction site. It’s one of the most famous structures in the world. Would they allow a crew that did not specialize in such work to even touch the place? Surely they would go beyond even the stringent safety standards they already have when working on a treasure like this.

    Also, one would think that the workers and restoration people on a project like this are highly specialized in this line of work. I could be wrong, but I just can’t believe they would take the lowest bidder on something like this.

  228. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Abacus nicely covers all basic engineering calculations. That’s how Greeks and Romans did it.

  229. Panhandle says:

    It’s early days so the truth about this fire isn’t yet known, though truth may be leaking out.
    If this guy and his sources are legitimate then officials there are suspicious of the fire origin and
    No one was working there today. Safety procedures are said to have been strictly followed. And
    Evidently unknown persons were seen in non public places just prior to the fire and video is here
    https://mobile.twitter.com/sotiridi

  230. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @Anonymous
  231. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Moderates in our own country will do the same.

    There’s a Goldwater quote which comes to mind.

  232. @istevefan

    A giant apartment complex under construction in downtown L.A. burned down spectacularly a few years ago.

    That turned out to be Black Lives Matter terrorism arson.

    https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-da-vinci-arson-plea-20170424-story.html

  233. MBlanc46 says:
    @J.Ross

    St Denis was third century, three centuries before Islam.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Anonymous
    , @Reg Cæsar
  234. J.Ross says: • Website
    @PhysicistDave

    If they wanted to be the West then they would be the West in their own countries. They look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    , @L Woods
  235. @istevefan

    She’s giving it to Ben from the other direction.

    For once, I think I’m with Shapiro. They’re both right about his ignorance, but as with Trump that may be necessary to find our way through the impasse.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @istevefan
    , @J.Ross
  236. 216 says:
    @Vinteuil

    Shapiro leads a predominantly Christian following, but he’s never indicated the slightest interest in conversion.

    For starters, that makes his followers look gullible, stupid, and lacking of self-respect.

    For leftist co-ethnics, he isn’t subverting hard enough, as his obvious interest has been Zionism instead of Tikkun.

    Outside of Conservatism Inc and associated right-liberals, the term Judeo-Christian is useless. But they won’t use the term Abrahamic, as it grants moral legitimacy to Islam.

    • Agree: bored identity
  237. J.Ross says: • Website
    @MBlanc46

    The monks at St Denis give us the story of Charles Martel repelling the religion of peace, in “the Chronicle of St Denis.”

  238. Anon[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andy

    somewhat off-topic, here is a reasonable essay on immigration by Andrew Sullivan:

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/andrew-sullivan-the-opportunity-of-white-anxiety.html

    I’m glad to see Eric Kaufmann’s book getting some high profile attention stateside.

    In addition to Kaufmann’s analysis and prescriptions, his book contains a quite detailed history of American immigration, cosmopolitanism and the intellectual movements related to it. Kaufmann traces it from pre-Revolution through, well, people like Peter Brimelow. If you think you know this stuff, you don’t.

    The Zeroeth Amendment is covered, though not called that by Kaufmann. It started with just a teeny plaque inside the base, and grew from there.

    Kaufmann has done some excellent interviews that are available on YouTube.

    • Agree: utu
  239. istevefan says:
    @Desiderius

    And Kristol is giving it back to Ben too.

    • Replies: @216
    , @Desiderius
  240. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Desiderius

    Agree. Shapiro’s an enemy, but his tone and intention here were unimpeachable, and his good deed is hideously punished.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @Anonymous
  241. istevefan says:

    Trump was mocked for this tweet:

    But, here is an example of such a tactic being used:

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  242. t says:
    @t

    I doubt on Protestant in a thousand knows what the Edict of Fontainebleau was but Jews can talk about 1260 without looking it up.

  243. Jim Lahey says:

    Growing up I often visited the cathedral in Covington, KY (why does that city sound familiar?). Its facade is a very close replica of that of Notre Dame de Paris
    .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_Basilica_of_the_Assumption_(Covington,_Kentucky)

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  244. @Steve Sailer

    America does The Apocalypse better, and L.A. in particular, is fertile ground for apocalyptic visions. Even a downtown L.A. luxury condo fire feels pretty close to The End Times.

  245. istevefan says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Mohammedans have to be careful around Jesus, who is a prophet, albeit a dwarf prophet, to them. I doubt the fecal treatment given to other French churches of late was their work, unless there are MENA Sartres among them.

    They have to speak well of him because they consider him a prophet. But they don’t have to respect crosses, crucifixes or any statues of him because they consider that idolatry. So they will on occasion ransack a church and destroy the statues, glass windows and any other depictions they find.

  246. 216 says:
    @istevefan

    My culture is not your prom dress

  247. Anon[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame, but when the homeless-filled Pan Pacific Auditorium burned down it really hit me that the Los Angeles I grew up in was dying. The slow disappearance of all the Googie-style restaurants led up to it.

    OT

    Rod Dreher at the American Conservative sympathetically summarized a recent article by a young Englishman who converted to Islam. It’s not as crazy as you might think. It’s kind of like becoming a fan of Jordan Peterson, but with a more spiritual component. He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become, something with firm traditional beliefs, discipline, and patriarchal guidance and leadership. He relates how all Christian churches he visited had been co-opted (Dreher, who ended up in an Eastern Orthodox church, wished the guy had given that a try).

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/why-convert-to-islam/

    The longer original piece published on a Christian website:

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/05/why-i-became-muslim

  248. @Moses

    That’s still a bit off, IMO, Mose. The Moslems that have come already are getting the good stuff that the West built over the long term. Once their numbers get big and overwhelming, yes, they will still have the land, and the deteriorating infrastructure and physical plant (“there’s a lot of ruin in a nation”), but the intangible benefits of Western society that the earlier crowd came for will have already been destroyed by them and others by that time.

    • Replies: @Moses
  249. @J.Ross

    Interesting analogy, I’ll borrow it.

  250. Liza says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Giger croaked in 2014.

    Fernando Botero’s still around, though. The slender statues in the cathedral are surely fat shaming – he’ll rectify that!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Botero#Examples_of_his_work

  251. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @MBlanc46

    Well, this was a third of a century ago……maybe closer to half of one now.

  252. @J.Ross

    Atrocities. Beggars belief. Never been to Notre Dame, but it was … Sweet Jesu, … are marvel of the Christian faith, and also, secularly, an architectural masterpiece of the high middle ages.

    I’ve never seen it in person, and many the French people are by and large shit, but this is at best, gross incompetence, and … you know. Out and about at bars and such, I heard many people talking about 911 … this pisses me off and I’ll leave it there.

  253. Kylie says:
    @PhysicistDave

    “Most human beings are not completely insane. That includes most Muslims.”

    No, but they are often irrational. Some populations more so than others.

  254. istevefan says:
    @nebulafox

    Most Muslims have a much higher opinion of Christianity than, say, Jews or most Western atheists do.

    Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it. Now, I don’t think Jews or atheists really want us to remain Christian either. But the former would have us convert to their faith, while the latter would not.

    Don’t get lulled into complacency with muslims. They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being. And truth be told, they have gotten the better of us over the last 1400 years. They occupied parts of Spain for up to 700 years. They occupied parts of SE Europe for almost 500 years. Heck, parts of modern Greece were still under occupation a century ago.

    Add up their slave count and it is estimated they took over 1 million Europeans as slaves in the Mediterranean and about 2 million via Crimea.

    Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity. While at the same time they have established a couple muslim nations in Europe and were recently granted a third, courtesy of the USAF.

    And don’t forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots. We are effectively ceding them territory that they otherwise could not have taken militarily. And there is no let up in sight.

    In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    , @nebulafox
  255. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    I’ve read news reports suggesting that it was deliberate government policy to staff the Notre Dame restoration teams with moooslim immigrants. This was done despite several recent, and very serious attempts by moooslim fanatics to destroy the building and its contents. I have no doubt that we will eventually discover that it was, in fact, mooslim vandalism that destroyed this building.

    Maybe, maybe not. My guess is that fire would not have made the muzzies get their rocks off nearly as well as a good blast. Like the now bought off IRA, Muzzies really like to make stuff go kaboom.

    • Replies: @a reader
  256. Anonymous[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    The LARPing muh-Traditional Catholic types are among the most insufferable people on Twitter. You know this one’s especially bad because she uses “Our Lady”. Romanism was the original Globalist and Multicultural ideology, no matter how hard these types try to retcon things.

    • Replies: @utu
  257. @Anon

    This seems like an idiotic comparison to Notre Dame,

    You are correct in terms of metapolitical, historical and cultural symbolism, but in terms of a massive urban fire, the L.A. DaVinci Fire was pretty bad.

  258. Cato says:
    @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Dude, he meant they were black people straight from Africa.

  259. @Muse

    “Some of the comments speculating that Muslim workers or someone else intentionally set fire to Notre Dame are shameful. Wait for the facts.”

    Followed by a bunch of blind speculation.

  260. @Buffalo Joe

    Looking like fall is an overstatement. Heroic work by French firefighters and their brave chaplain.

  261. Kylie says:
    @istevefan

    “In a way I hope muslims did burn down Notre Dame. If that is what it takes to end the madness of the immivasion, then so be it.”

    Except that it won’t. If it turns out that Muslims did burn down Notre Dame, I bet the French use that as an excuse to crack down on the right, supposedly to prevent a backlash but in reality because they won’t let a good crisis go to waste.

    • Agree: Liza
  262. songbird says:

    I still think it is suspicious.

    But speaking of fire suppression, I think lightning rods were adopted pretty widely on old churches in Europe. It is curious that there is nothing else. Like I am surprised they don’t have some sort of paint or stain they could put on wood, something like boric acid, which is used in cellulose insulation, if I recall.

  263. @Jim Lahey

    Covington has two spectacular cathedrals. Catholic stonemasons fleeing Bismarck. One of my ancestors was a French stonemason from that era.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  264. @istevefan

    Dude’s been living in hell. It’s getting to him.

  265. Whiskey says: • Website

    Muslims likely burned it down. It’s what they do. Scorpion, frog.

    Macron will likely replace the ruins with a mosque. All the Jacinda Arderns will approve.

  266. Moses says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Fair enough Achmed — the invaders will not be able to maintain Western material success (see: South Africa).

    But that is beside the point.

    They want our stuff, and they’re grabbing it. Because we are weak and have lost all self-belief.

    They have not the forsight to see the future consequences of their actions (see: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe redistribution of wealthy farms from Whites to Blacks).

    Those who envy take, then destroy.

    It is known.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  267. @istevefan

    Dog bites man. Shapiro posted a particularly stupid tweet mocking Trump before he deleted it.

    You’d think the three-hundredth time this happened they’d check themselves.

    You’d be wrong. Incredible social pressure to signal distance from Trump. Never seen anything like it.

  268. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Clifford Brown

    Ah yes, the old toggle top. Great fun at the range or for plinking, or in .30 caliber with the long barrel squirrel and rabbit collector….but the last firearm of the modern world you’d want to bet your life on.

    The Hi Power and Radom were the best 9mm pistols of the era, but the 1911 reigns supreme. A more modern variant with the feed ramp on the barrel that can be switched between 9mm/.38 Super/10mm/.45 ACP would be even better.

    The Hi Power is a great design but 9mm doesn’t cut it. I think the perfect solution for the Hi Power was worked out by Guns & Ammo magazine in the late 70s. They designed a ~10mm cartridge that was the largest a Browning Hi Power could safely handle based on belted Weatherby brass. That, I am certain, is where Jeff Cooper (pbuh) got the idea for the Bren Ten. The G&A solution was better in that any stock Hi-Power could be converted and converted back to 9mm easily. And with a stiffer spring they were safe to shoot with the black case 9mm buzzgun ammo that was cheap then but not safe in most stock 9mm pistols. That stuff is why the 9mm cylinder for .357 Ruger Blackhawks was invented. IIRC it was Berdan primed but very cheap.

    Israeli? German? Don’t remember where it came from but I nailed an immense, aggressive, feral and possibly rabid dog with one round out of said Blackhawk and she crumped like I had hit her with a Nitro Express round. I hate shooting dogs because, among other reasons, usually they let out a horrifying death howl, but this bitch (turned out not to have been rabid but had attacked a couple of kids who had to get the rabies shot series) was dead before she hit the ground.

    Probably the reason the G&A design failed was because NIH syndrome coupled with the ludicrous prices Weatherby gets for brass. RCBS still has the dies available if I am not mistaken.

  269. anon[357] • Disclaimer says:
    @notanon

    i’m coming to the view that when a population completely loses faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class they end up believing the worst possible explanation for any event.

    And moreover it is very reasonable to assume the worst of people who have betrayed your trust. If Bernie Madofff is trying to sell me stock, I will not bother listening to his pitch. I will assume he is a liar and brush him off. Just so the Democrats and Republicans.

  270. Mr. Anon says:
    @PhysicistDave

    All the white-bashing, all the attacks on Western civilization, are really just petty little scams aimed at increasing their power, indeed, in some cases, just at getting a bit more of the loot into their own personal bank accounts.

    It isn’t just motivated by a lust for money or power – although that is part of it. There is also a lot of deep-seated hatred behind it.

  271. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Giger was, if nothing else, unique. Would have loved to met him.

  272. @Jack D

    Dropping tons of water out of a plane on a structure that was not designed to withstand such an impact is moronic.

    Calling this sort of prima facie nonsense “out-of-the-box-thinking” is moronic, too.

    But then we had to destroy the village in order to save it, de we not?

  273. notanon says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    My general feeling is that if this were the work of Muslim terrorists, they would have claimed responsibility for it already.

    i doubt the church burnings in France are consciously jihadist – just ethnic hatred.

  274. Mr. Anon says:

    I always thought the cathedral in Cologne was more impressive looking – much more “gothicky”, if you will.

    It’s a shame about Notre Dame. I had no idea the roof was supported by timbers. 800 years is pretty old for a wooden structure Not many survive that long.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  275. anon[293] • Disclaimer says:

    “Trump was mocked for this tweet”

    The Tweet was pretty innocuous. Didn’t stop CNN’s resident genius Erin Burnett from mouthing off about it for hate clicks in a segment that made its way into YouTube’s breaking news listing; so much for trusted news. Shameless buffoon (Burnett). YouTube should remove the video listing and suspend CNN’s account for that.

  276. @Desiderius

    The link goes to Houellebecq offering thoughts prescient as usual including a few real gems.

  277. J.Ross says: • Website

    Some good news out of Europe: Finland’s pro-sovereignty Finn’s Party did smashingly well in the recent general election.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-15/finland-s-nail-biter-election-sets-stage-for-tough-talks-q-a

    The Social Democrats got 40 seats, the Finns Party 39 and the National Coalition 38. The race was tight to the very end, with the Social Democrats winning by a narrower margin than polls suggested and the anti-immigration group posting a surprisingly strong showing. Outgoing Prime Minister Juha Sipila’s Center Party was punished by voters, and Blue Reform, the more moderate faction that splintered from the Finns in 2017, was wiped out.

  278. jim jones says:

    I have some Catholic neighbours, I will have to ask them later why God did not simply make it rain to put out the fire.

  279. @t

    We had St. Bart’s. French geography doesn’t lend itself well to pluralism.

  280. @Cloudbuster

    For the most part when Trump talks he sounds and gestures like a fussy queen from some 1970s movie about aging homosexuals. His tweets sound more like a senile uncle. How he still has defenders is amazing. I suppose it says something about his opponents and the lack of quality leadership in the country.

    • Replies: @Moses
    , @Desiderius
    , @Ibound1
  281. @J.Ross

    Oriflamme. the Sacred Banner of St Denis
    Combat without quarter/mercy/ransom/
    Ye that makes sense to me

  282. Timothy S says:

    @Anonymous[206]
    “Muslim’s don’t generally attempt to destroy Christian holy sites. Jesus is revered in Islam.”

    Oh really? There are hundreds of instances in Europe over the last year alone.
    As in all wars, symbolic icons of the enemy are prime targets. There was one only yesterday if I recall. I’m sure about 10 minutes of research could unearth thousands more instances of desecration over the centuries.
    Mohammed was eager to claim other belief systems as subservient to his own. It makes it far easier to establish temporary truces – which are just that: temporary. Ultimately, his system cannot tolerate anything beyond his own epileptic vision of the cosmos.

  283. Wilkey says:

    Notre Dame burns. It’s not destroyed by lightning, earthquake, tornado, tsunami, or meteor strike, but almost certainly by some careless, thoughtless act of man.

    What a perfect metaphor for the way the leaders of the West are pissing away our proud, ancient heritage. It breaks down, of course, with the arrival of the firefighters. If the metaphor worked perfectly Macron would have had all the firefighters arrested and fired, and then denounced the water and firehoses as racist microaggressions against the diversity of elements.

  284. @Andy

    Andrew’s approval of the Border Wall is perceptive, and telling: “Merely as a symbol of border control, it could calm people down, curtail some of the hysteria, and dampen the appeal of the far right”.

    This is exactly why I oppose the Wall. It will be a symbol, and only a symbol, allowing the politicians to do nothing. A Wall is no substitute for vigilance and harshly punishing the people who employ illegal aliens and make this country an attractive destination for them.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  285. @Anon

    He just wanted a haven from the sex-booze-cosmopolitan-transgender-emasculated-unpatriotic hellhole that modern society has become

    Good luck with that. From what I have seen of Islam it is mostly entirely corrupted and completely uninspiring. Iranian Mullahs are as venal as they come, most Sunni Islamic leaders seem to have IQs of 90. Saudis are complete hypocrites.

    The appeal of Islam to young men is mostly nihilistic and rage driven – the desire to take revenge against a society that doesn’t need or want them. But it offers nothing constructive.

    The Catholic church has issues, but you can still find a way to God in the rich intellectual and spiritual traditions the Church as developed over thousands of years. This is true of Orthodox Judaism and Buddhism as well.

    • Agree: Ibound1
  286. Yoopy says:
    @J.Ross

    “Most Muslims” aren’t terrorists; by this reasoning, the US military doesn’t exist, or is nothing to worry about, seeing as most Americans aren’t serving in it.

    First rate analogy. The Chinese concur…

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6924349/China-using-AI-identify-Uighurs-China-NYT.html

  287. gcochran says:
    @t

    In my experience, Jews don’t know much about Jewish medieval history.

  288. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    Romanism was the original Globalist and Multicultural ideology – that kept as safe from Masons, Jews and Communists for over 18 hundred years.

  289. SF says:
    @Jack D

    I spent some time working on wildland fires back in the day. Heavy Helicopters probably would have been useful. They can spray to some extent rather than just drop a water bomb, and could direct the water much better than a fixed wing aircraft. The fire hoses seemed on the videos from the scene to be not too effective. The building is about 130 feet tall, or was. It has been 17 years since I was there, but it is hard to imagine a building that is mainly stone and concrete burning that intensively. I wouldn’t rule out arson.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @istevefan
    , @Jack D
  290. nebulafox says:
    @istevefan

    You and everybody else who responded completely missed my point. If I thought mass unassimilable Islamic immigration was wise, I wouldn’t be here.

    But if you really want to find the most hostile people to *Christianity*, as a faith, you won’t find them-usually-among run-of-the-mill Muslims. And the types that do tend to hate everybody who isn’t of their Islamist persuasion. Jesus is, as I’ve mentioned, is massively respected within mainstream Islam, so most Muslims wouldn’t exactly be jazzed about him being considered an insane fool, or even a “social revolutionary” without the requisite prophet status.

    Compare this to say, Judaism, where for a long time Jesus was condemned to a dung pit in hell as the son of a drunken whore and Roman soldier.

    (Now, Judaism, on the other hand: that’s another story. It’s really hard for someone who has never been to the Islamic World to comprehend just how deep the anti-Semitism can go sometimes. Left-wing American Jews sometimes have a hard time figuring this out because they live in a fantasy world where it is the 1960s forever.)

    > They have had their eyes on Europe since the day they came into being.

    Sometimes. Sometimes not. Islam has been around for a pretty long time.

    Mainstream Islam bequeathed to us by ‘Abd al-Malik and his cronies (Muhammad’s goals were a little more local and blurry) did have their eyes on conquering Europe: but that’s because the Umayyad dynasty had deep routes to the Byzantine empire and naturally focused on Constantinople. The Abbasids, by contrast, focused on the east. The bloody nose the Byzantines gave the Arabs in 717 had a fair amount to do with this, but it was also because they decided to relocate to Baghdad, and because the east was just richer and more prosperous at the time. The trade routes to India, Indonesia, and China was where the money was at.

    The other major imperial Islamic threat to European civilization was, as I’ve mentioned, Ottoman Turkey. There was definitely a religious triumphalist dimension (which Islam as a whole has always innately had, due to the circumstances of its creation-I’ll readily grant that Western bien-pensants really don’t want to cop to that) to that, but if it were all about religion, the Mughals and the Safavids would have been aiding them in their conquest. The Persians even allied with European powers to provide a counterweight against Turkish power in the Islamic World. People are people. They deal with the complex realities of their time and are usually inconsistent at best at what they choose to follow.

    >Do most muslims want Europe and her New World offshoots to remain Christian? I doubt it.

    Nah, most are indifferent to what the kafirs do in their own turf. They reckon Western US and much of the USA as basically irreligious anyway. There’s a strong underlying cultural contempt for Western decadence in a lot of the Islamic World, but imperial-style fantasies of en masse exporting the faith these days are relegated to specific cultures (Turkey under the AKP has a strong neo-Ottoman romantic streak in them these days, and the Saudis are the Saudis). This isn’t the 1600s, let alone the 700s.

    >Additionally they radically altered the MENA and removed most of the vestiges of Christianity.

    We’re getting relatively close to 1500 years after the conquests. Time to let it go. Islam is a faith of over a billion people now, a reality that just needs to be dealt with. Setting the planet on fire in the name of religious conflict is a profoundly dumb idea: and exactly what the jihadis want.

    >And don’t forget the biggest thing of all, namely, that we have allowed and even welcomed tens of millions of them to settle into Europe and its New World offshoots.

    Not in America. Western Europe is a different story. I’ve got little sympathy for Islamic immigrants uncomfortable with Western norms, but until the Europeans decide their cultures are worth defending and immigrants can either get on board or screw off, though, they deserve what they get.

  291. @Moses

    Moses wrote to me:

    Muslims certainly do not want to “become” the West. The West exalts that which they despise — feminist pussy-hat wearers, open celebration of homosexuality…

    So… are you saying Muslims are less sane than contemporary Westerners or more sane?

    • Replies: @Moses
    , @L Woods
    , @Kylie
  292. @J.Ross

    J. Ross wrote to me:

    [Muslims] look at meritocracy as misrule and freedom of speech as disrespect.

    I’ve known quite a few Muslims over the decades and read reports by people who know those countries far better than you or I ever will.

    There are clearly a lot of Muslims who respect meritocracy and freedom of expression — one lives across the street from me.

    And, I know white Americans who don’t.

    However, at least until recently, we Americans more or less knew how to keep our crazies under control (not so much any longer). And, the sane folks in Muslim countries were not as good at keeping their crazies under control.

    Think of it as a problem in zoo-keeping: we knew what to do with our wild beasts in the shape of humans (I mean thuggish white Americans — this is not a racist point), they not as much.

    Although, nowadays…. if I had to choose between being ruled by an all-powerful AOC or an all-powerful Ayatollah, I’m not sure which way I’d go.

  293. @Western

    Or like the Parthenon in Nashville.

    Regarding the reactions: God, save me from such unctuous tweets and public statements, as genuine as the roof which will replace the one which burned down.

  294. nebulafox says:
    @PhysicistDave

    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    Otherwise… you’d be stunned to see how utterly similar the psychological profile is between the two. It’s the same angry, alienated young man who really isn’t interested in the nuances of history or theology or ideology. Some people just want to watch the world burn, you know?

    (The ayatollahs, for their part, are venal, hypocritical SOBs who run a deeply nasty regime. But, apart from the fact that their geopolitics are a lot more reality-based than Official Washington would give them credit for-the Shah wanted an atomic bomb too, for some of the same reasons-they do not want war with the US, because they know that’ll abort Iran’s inevitable hegemonic rise in the region when the CENTCOM/petrodollar game eventually runs dry for the Sauds. Plus, they aren’t the ones using zakat/oil money to export Wahhabism. Thinking that Iran today is the same as it was under Khomeini is like comparing 1990s China to Cultural Revolution-era China.)

  295. @Chrisnonymous

    Chrisnonymous wrote to me:

    I fear the French will not opt for the Japanese or American solutions but will instead do something that combines the ruins from this fire with a modernist or post-modernist building a la I.M. Pei’s glass Louvre Pyramid.

    I’ve seen the Louvre Pyramid, and while it is certainly out of place, it is not disgustingly ugly.

    No, for truly pointless ugliness take the “Pompidou Center”: I saw Steyn make this comment tonight on television, but I have seen the Pompidou Center, and I heartily agree.

    Fortunately, I think Victor Hugo still has enough impact that the French will rebuild the cathedral rather than desecrate it (I use “desecrate” in an aesthetic and historical sense, not theological).

  296. JMcG says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I recently read a book, recommended here I believe, titled Structures, by J.E. Gordon. It is a sort of an elementary guide to structural engineering. In it, Mr. Gordon makes the point that masonry structures such as Notre Dame are scalable.
    That is to say that if you can build a scale model of the structure using the same materials that doesn’ t collapse, you can go ahead and build the full size structure, as the loads work out properly.
    I simplify obviously, but the book was a very worthwhile quick read.

  297. @nebulafox

    nebulafox wrote to me:

    There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    Well, when I said “crazies” I had in mind leftists/progressives (though I hold no brief for white nationalists either).

    I actually think both jihadists and SJW’s are dead ends historically: ordinary people want peace, stability, material comforts, an opportunity for a normal family life, etc. Neither jihadists nor SJWs can deliver that long term.

    Being more or less a libertarian (old school, not new school), I would like to think that libertarian ideas can deliver on all that. Of course, in terms of power politics, libertarians are an insignificant force politically everywhere.

    On the other hand, it is fundamentally libertarian ideas — limited government, freedom of the press, a market economy, civilian rather then military control of the state, etc. — that made the modern West possible.

    Concretely, I think of it as a triangular battle: Thomas Jefferson vs. Karl Marx vs. Muhammad. For a long time in the twentieth century, it looked as if Marx was the wave of the future. In recent decades, Muhammad has been having his day.

    In the long run, my money is on Jefferson: either the ideas of the American Founders prevail or the entire planet enters a new Dark Age.

    As to whether those ideas triumph under the label of “libertarianism,” or “liberalism,” or “conservatism”… I don’t really care.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    , @nebulafox
  298. @Daniel H

    A disagree from me. I like neo-Gothic Romanticism where appropriate and well-conceived. Notre-Dame is, after all, a medieval Gothic cathedral. The ornamentation is part of the mystique. Viollet-le-Duc’s spire was not a completely new addition: There was an original one removed in 1786 due to decay. Balance-wise, a central spire keeps the overall mass from being visually end-heavy and dominated by the huge towers.

    One problem with the look of the modern spire was its darkening due to grime, which contrasted with the rest of the exterior. The restoration would have made it of-a-piece with the rest. Finally, another reason to exactly rebuild the spire is that in all modern memory of Notre-Dame, including almost all photography, the spire rises.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Meretricious
  299. @The Wild Geese Howard

    I assume you came back with the Mohammed was a child molester stuff?

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  300. @The Wild Geese Howard

    I assume you came back with the Mohammed was a child molester stuff?

  301. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Although your comment is basically correct, I am able to correct you on one point: the old rite is celebrated there at least once a year at the high altar as the opening ceremony of the Paris-Chartres Pilgrimage. This is always on the Saturday before Pentecost, so this year a new venue will have to be found and I am certain that an even stronger sense that the pilgrimage exists to foster the restoration of Catholic France will be present in everyone’s minds.

  302. @RickinJax

    His minders are doing their best to keep him under control, but his thoughts will certainly veer in that direction, if he thinks about it at all.

  303. @Anonymous

    My favourite sort of historical tidbit, one with a family connection and a striking fact to bring us right into the middle of history as it was actually lived.

  304. @Desiderius

    And who was he fleeing?

    Napoleon III?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  305. @Andy

    Had an illegal approach the house this evening. He didn’t seem to be armed, but lied about how many more were with him. I could go on, but I’ve seen the type before, and I have to wonder if I didn’t have a pistol on my belt what would have happened.

    This is ridiculous. This is something people in Maine, Minnesota or whatever don’t have to deal with. It’s just not a good idea here to walk around if you’re not strapped.

    Most are fine. I don’t blame them. But some, and I suspect this guy was one of them, are extremely bad. If he would have shot me, he would have had my wallet, car keys, and be in Dallas or whereever before anyone thought to look for me. And if he’s never been picked up before, no prints in the system, no ID.

  306. @istevefan

    If we’re going to have a conspiracy theory, I prefer the one that Macron did it to quelch yellow vest enthusiasm.

    That bastard.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  307. @nebulafox

    The main differences between crazies in the West and crazies in the Islamic World is that the latter can join coherent movements that pose threats to the stability of dozens of governments across multiple continents. There’s simply no analogue to that among, say, white nationalists, despite what our media desperately wants people to believe.

    I think you’re a little off. What make the muslim thing such a threat is the very large support network they enjoy. Either financial, cultural, emotional, logistical. A bunch of muslims really hate the west, and they turn a blind eye to the people perpetrating crimes, or else actively help them.

    I wonder what career and cutural paths the Bin Ladens that Bush had spirited out of the US after 911 has been? The wrong country was invaded in 2013 if you ask me.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
    • Replies: @nebulafox
  308. @The Wild Geese Howard

    The Koran explicitly rejects the co-substantial nature of Jesus, as asserted in the Nicene creed. It holds that the gospels were corrupted, after the life of Jesus, by mortal men, specifically, by their insistence on a triune nature for God.

    The Koran, however, does not reject the Virgin Birth, nor the Immaculate Conception, and holds that Jesus was the Messiah, performed miracles, and will return on Judgment Day to usher the righteous into Heaven.

    All that puts it way closer to Christianity, doctrinally speaking, than Judaism.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  309. @PhysicistDave

    I think we have come to accept the Pyramid out of familiarity and contrast with other aesthetic degradations that have followed it.

  310. @Reg Cæsar

    What about Maya Lin?!? Racists!

  311. bomag says:
    @L Woods

    I expect whitey will do exactly what he’s best at: nothing.

    Well, whitey is actively, and with great vigor,hollowing out his heritage and history.

    As Steve noted here in a different context: “human capital poorly deployed.”

  312. It’s a shock to hear Kenneth Clark’s accent after so many years. While his accent was a fairly commonplace upper-class Brit accent when the series aired, when I was young, listening to it now, in 2019, made me realize that the classic British toff RP accent of most of the second half of the 20th century is now extinct.

    Clarke’s own accent is apparently a successor to an earlier upper class accent which arose in the Edwardian era and lasted until mid-century.

    • Replies: @BB753
    , @Old Palo Altan
  313. DFH says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    But did they say that Jesus was burning in faeces in Hell or that the Virgin was in a tub of boiling semen, which is written in the Talmud?

  314. Moses says:
    @PhysicistDave

    Sanity got nuttin’ to do with it, Dave.

  315. @PhysicistDave

    As to whether those ideas triumph under the label of “libertarianism,” or “liberalism,” or “conservatism”… I don’t really care.

    Well, might turn out, that the new label reads Islamism – at least in Europe (cf. Michel Houellebecq: Submission). Grammar school Kreuzberg, 2019: Relation Turkish and Arab (etc.) speaking kids to German speaking kids: A whopping 370:1!

  316. @Anonymous

    A truly big man this Zähringer. Freiburg flourished under them – as did the Black Forest. The Zähringers understood, that there is no leadership without followers – one reason, they supported the church whenever possible.

  317. @Anonymous

    A truly big man this Zähringer. Freiburg flourished under them – as did the Black Forest. The Zähringers understood, that there is no leadership without followers – one reason, they supported the church whenever possible.

  318. @Anonymous

    A truly big man this Zähringer. Freiburg flourished under them – as did the Black Forest. The Zähringers understood, that there is no leadership without followers – one reason, they supported the church whenever possible.
    The Freiburger Cathedral made it into my dreams – into those of them, which entered long time memory. It is an absolute treasure and collective work of art – as is the Augustiner-Museum in Freiburg, btw. – you can’t surpass that. Just saw a few Mantegas and Bellinis in Berlin. Great – but not better. Spent some hours there with an absolutely enchanted group of visitors I was lucky enough to show around last autumn.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  319. @nebulafox

    I’m sorry but your long-winded post only reveals that you’ve completely missed the point of Islam.

  320. BB753 says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Man, was Keynes wrong! Bright future my arse!

  321. @PhysicistDave

    “I’ve seen the Louvre Pyramid, and while it is certainly out of place, it is not disgustingly ugly.”

    No, it simply makes the foyer beneath it so unbearably hot as to be uninhabitable. Standing beneath it on a sunny day is like being an ant under a magnifying glass. Another testimony to our artists’ and architects’ lack of well-rounded skills. What is held up as daring is merely cute. A feminine aesthetic.

  322. Anonymous[167] • Disclaimer says:

    Hearing all the lachrymous wailing and expostulations from the so called ‘great and good’ about ‘the obscene damage to priceless, ancient European culture and heritage’, one is a but a little annoyed and irritated.

    In the final analysis, Notre Dame is merely a pile of stone and timber – although artfully arranged – of no real antiquity on the geological or evolutionary time scale.

    But as very real fears are being wept for the said like of rock, the selfsame pompous weepers and wailers absolutely could not give a damn – and actively hard those who do – about the extinction of the unique millennia year old European genotypes and phenotypes – the *only* salient fact about Notre Dame, which once gone is gone forever, unlike a building, and do everything in their power to import as many thirdworlders as possible into the European motherland, the crucible of creation of European art and genius.

    It I’ll behooves me to point out that France will be majority non European by ethnicity by mid century.

    Now, that is the *real* tragedy, the tragedy that dares not speak its name.

  323. David says:
    @Verymuchalive

    John Ruskin wrote an essay deploring the extensive repair of Notre Dame “under the wise rule of Napoleon III.” He quoted some French guy saying that, sure we’re replacing a lot of the statuary but we’re recreating it with “mathematical precision.” Ruskin says, if I were to tell you I can recreate the Elgin Marbles with mathematical precision but first I have to smash up the originals, would you be happy with that?

    From that essay, on a shelf too high for me to get at right now, I get the impression that much of what we could have seen yesterday morning wasn’t from the twelfth century.

  324. L Woods says:
    @PhysicistDave

    To ask that question is to answer it.

  325. Kylie says:
    @PhysicistDave

    How about just a different kind of insanity?

  326. Anonymous[416] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dieter Kief

    An ancestor was a Zunftmeister in Freiburg and sold land to the Augustiners. I believe it may be the land where the Augustiner-Museum now stands.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  327. L Woods says:
    @J.Ross

    I hardly see an issue, as they’ll find neither of those things in today’s West.

  328. @Jus' Sayin'...

    …. and if Europe does finally fall to Islam, America will be filled with death worshipping Central Americans. A few pockets of White holy rollers will be hanging on here and there, convinced their prosperity gospel heresy saved them from Europe’s fate. The Fabian socialists in fancy-drsss (Mainline Protestants and White Catholics) will be literally and figuratively cannibalized by the rest. Only the flyover country heretics will be around by then.

  329. Ibound1 says:
    @nebulafox

    Jesus is not respected in the Muslim world at all. A fictional character named Issa, invented by Muhammad, who talked in the cradle, and who was never crucified – and was a Muslim – is respected as a prophet in the Muslim world. If Christians called Muhammad Moh, said he was a Christian, and said he was calling people back to Christianity, would Muslims say Muhammad was “massively respected” in the Muslim world?

  330. @Peter Akuleyev

    How he still has defenders is amazing.

    He doesn’t.

    Like Trump, we recognize that there is no defense against bad faith on this scale, so offense it is, in all senses of the word.

  331. Ibound1 says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Has he invaded anyone? Has he “surged” anywhere? Our last few geniuses were unable to manage that.

  332. @Old Palo Altan

    Lol. We think he was from Alsace-Lorraine, so maybe Bismarck too. The Franco-Prussian War couldn’t have been encouraging.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  333. @Matra

    Save your cringing for the snobs. Trump stayed with Tiger when he was down. If you can’t appreciate that I cringe for you.

    • Replies: @Matra
  334. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    As far as I know, they did not even offer the traditional Tridentine Mass at the cathedral. Instead they offered the banal Novus Ordo Mass, the disastrous fruits of which are evident to all thinking persons.

    For many years, the Church of St Agnes in St Paul celebrated Latin High Mass every week, half of them with orchestra (Beethoven, Schubert, Haydn, Gounod, etc.) and half with Gregorian chant. Liturgy was in Latin, too, and the priest faced the crucifix, not the congregation.

    The most surprising thing was that– and I confirmed it with the pastor– these was entirely Novus Ordo. Tridentine Masses still needed a dispensation, and one other church in the archdiocese had that, but not St Agnes.

    I think they’ve returned to Tridentine in the past decade, but you really can’t tell the difference without a scorecard. So you could get pretty close to Tridentine under Novus Ordo, if you knew, and cared, what you were doing.

    The church was built by Austrian immigrants. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are depicted on the ceiling as blond and blue-eyed.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
  335. bomag says:
    @nebulafox

    But if you really want to find the most hostile people to *Christianity* as a faith, you won’t find them,usually,among run of the mill Muslims.

    Islam has been around for a pretty long time.

    Europeans… deserve what they get.

    Too blasé. Islam buries science and intellectual traditions. At least Atheism and Judaism carries on those aspects (maybe).

    Human society must resist giving in to such entropy. Your neighbor’s house and household are at risk of falling to the elements, but it is no comfort when such happens, in as far as it reduces your support community.

  336. @PhysicistDave

    However, at least until recently, we Americans more or less knew how to keep our crazies under control (not so much any longer). And, the sane folks in Muslim countries were not as good at keeping their crazies under control.

    The Sermon on the Mount is a better tool for that than is Surah 9 of the Koran.

    Interestingly, “atrocitologist” Matthew White says only 13 of the 100 deadliest human atrocities were committed in the name of religion. Makes you wonder about the other 87. I wonder how that compares with RJ Rummel’s views.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  337. @nebulafox

    We’re getting relatively close to 1500 years after the conquests. Time to let it go.

    But 70 years after losing 0.1% of your territory, that’s another story?

    • Agree: Chrisnonymous
  338. Anon[314] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I take it you’ve never seen Phantom of the Opera?

  339. Travis says:
    @Steve Sailer

    In France, two churches are desecrated every day on average. According to PI-News, a German news site, 1,063 attacks on Christian churches or symbols (crucifixes, icons, statues) were registered in France in 2018. This represents a 17% increase compared to the previous year (2017), when 878 attacks were registered— meaning that such attacks are only going from bad to worse.

    Similar reports are coming out of Germany. Four separate churches were vandalized and/or torched in March alone. “In this country,” PI-News explained, “there is a creeping war against everything that symbolizes Christianity: attacks on mountain-summit crosses, on sacred statues by the wayside, on churches… and recently also on cemeteries.”

    A German report from 2017 noted that in the Alps and Bavaria alone, around 200 churches were attacked and many crosses broken: “Police are currently dealing with church desecrations again and again. The perpetrators are often youthful rioters with a migration background.” Elsewhere they are described as “young Islamists.”

  340. LondonBob says:
    @istevefan

    Just like the occasional church in England where the New Model Army was stationed and they have had their stain glass windows smashed as idolatrous.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  341. @Dr History

    “The French are the only reason all Americans aren’t all primarily speaking Farsi right now”

    You forgot to mention Vienna 1683.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

    The invasion in 1683 was more serious. The Moslems brought an army of at least 100,000 for the invasion plus camp followers numbering at least 100,000.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  342. @istevefan

    Yes, the destruction and desecration of churches and all things Christian is certainly in the toolbox of islamists (rather like shelling the Buddhist monumental rock sculptures in Afghanistan a few years back).

    Here is an example of just this behavior, and the response to this execrable barbarism from Syria. (There used to be comments under this post, but Col. Lang discontinued using Discus to manage comments, and they all disappeared; a worthwhile action despite this, and a cautionary note to those who outsource control of comments to SJWs such as Discus.)

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/04/httpswwwalmasdarnewscomarticle600-year-old-aleppo-cathedral-re-consecrated-after-jihadist-destruction.html

    P.S.: Here is the link to Co. Lang’s post concerning Discus, and the comments from readers.

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/04/disqus.html

  343. “If we want to see it as a symbol for Western civilization, then we should take the symbolism a step further and recognize that more survived than was feared yesterday. The rock, the relics, the interior, arguably the heart of Notre Dame, the heart of Western civilization, is still there. It will be the basis of the rebuilding.”

    From Instapundit comments.

  344. Anon[314] • Disclaimer says:
    @Western

    Apparently it’s not as old as people think. The spire, for instance, dates back only 200 years. The rose windows are not original either. It’s been repaired and updated in bits and pieces over the centuries. Think Sisteen Chapel, where the ceiling contains almost nothing painted by Michelangelo, although it probably looks nearly the same as when it was originally done.

    New York Magazine currently has a related long piece about the “restoration” of a “Da Vinci” painting that, if authentic, was in such bad shape that it was basically recreated. Since then it’s changed hands a few times, topping $400,000.

    In Japan the historical shrines and temples are all made of untreated wood, and they are torn down and rebuilt on a schedule.

  345. @nebulafox

    What people in the West often ignore, both people who hate Islam and people who romanticize it, is that Islam on its home turf is increasingly subject to the same secular pressures and decay that Christianity faces in the West. The number of regular mosque going Muslims has been declining steadily. A lot of patriarchal traditions are breaking down under the impact of technology and the internet. Sexual mores are being corrupted by the internet. Islam is increasingly an ethnic badge people wear as a source of self-esteem – particularly by Muslims who live in the West and have no real hope of fitting in. But the idea that Europeans would convert en masse to Islam would actually be anathema to most immigrants if they gave the idea 5 seconds deep thought (which, admittedly, they probably don’t). If all the elites in Germany converted to Islam then a poorly educated Turkish wanna-be rapper in Duisburg would end up being just as much a loser in Germany as he would be back home in Bursa or Erdigli.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @prosa123
    , @J.Ross
    , @nebulafox
  346. Ganderson says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I grew up at St. Mark’s, just as my mom had- before she died in 1982 she had asked that her funeral be held at St. Agnes, in Latin. NOT ALLOWED. She loved her Church and hated what it had become post Vatican II.

  347. LondonBob says:

    The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow was demolished by the communists in the early thirties. The planned for replacement Palace of the Soviets was never built due to the German invasion. Material was instead used for metro construction and an open air swimming pool was put there. In the nineties, despite the economic collapse, a public subscription was launched and it was rebuilt. Perhaps my favourite tourist spot in Moscow. Notre Dame will be rebuilt.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour

  348. I’m having a look at French Twitter and there are a lot of people sharing screen captures of Muslims celebrating the fire at Notre Dame. By the time this is over, the fire may as well have been set by an Islamist, given all the animosity this is creating. For better or worse, social media lets one group taunt the other, without elite approved community leaders guiding the conversation.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  349. istevefan says:
    @nebulafox

    You and everybody else who responded completely missed my point. If I thought mass unassimilable Islamic immigration was wise, I wouldn’t be here.

    What was the purpose of your point? Were you trying to tell us that muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet while Jews and atheists have a high disregard for him? And therefore muslims are innately friendlier to Christians than are Jews and atheists?

    Fine, we all know that Jesus is a prophet to them. But that still leaves us with the problem that we follow Jesus, and thus deviate massively from their teachings. Look at how the Sunnis react towards the Shia. Both of them are ostensibly of the same faith. If their disagreement is just over the successor, how do they really feel about a people who follow, in their eyes, the wrong prophet?

    Your point in this day and age would be like someone telling the North American Indians that the English really like your culture. In fact they’d like to use likenesses of your people as representations for their sports teams and institutions because they really admire the fighting spirit of your people.

    Though the English might have had, and still do have, respect and admiration for the Native Americans, it did not entice them to join that culture, nor refrain them from replacing it.

    We’re getting relatively close to 1500 years after the conquests.

    Tell that to the Serbians who just lost Kosovo. Tell that to the Greeks of Cyprus. Tell it to the ME Christians who have just recently gone through yet another round of ethnic cleansing. Additionally, as I have pointed out before, I know a Greek gentleman still alive today who was born in a town that was still under muslim occupation just 5 years before his birth. The conquests are not 1500 years old and in some cases are ongoing.

    Not in America. Western Europe is a different story.

    Really? Though it is true Europe is further along in muslim migration, even though we are further along in overall third world migration, the USA has nearly doubled its population of muslims since 9-11. We have significantly more muslims today than pre-911.

    More importantly there are no controls in place to prevent that number from climbing even higher. There is no statute that says to put a cap on their presence at 1 %, 2%, 10% or higher. So to look at their numbers and believe all is well because they are still under 2% is not wise.

    I imagine there were men of the Wampanoag who assured others at one time that the Puritans were only 1 percent of the population. How did that work out?

    • Agree: Ibound1, Meretricious
    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Marat
    , @ThreeCranes
  350. Liza says:

    Re the bombing of the church in Dresden.

    About a third of the new Frauenkirche building is made from the old, dark-colored stones that were left in the ruins. The rest are new, light colored sandstones. Together they create a kind of mosaic of past and present. The golden cross atop the church’s dome was even created by the son of an English pilot who dropped bombs on Dresden in 1945. And of course, there is a new organ.

    In the United States the Friends of Dresden counted David Rockefeller and Henry Kissinger among its members, and in France, there was the Association Frauenkirche Paris

    Oh, how very touching. Next thing you know, our enemies will hold bake sales in aid of putting Notre Dame Cathedral back together again. Fuck you all backwards, every last one of you. Starting with any politician even remotely involved with Washington’s shitty wars in the middle east, if only by refusing to condemn them.

  351. Anonymous[158] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    There was a plot to blow up Barcelona cathedral a few years ago.

    (OTOH, it’s such an ugly building maybe it would be a blessing if it burned down).

  352. prosa123 says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    But the idea that Europeans would convert en masse to Islam would actually be anathema to most immigrants if they gave the idea 5 seconds deep thought

    Conversion to Islam is very rare, largely limited to the lumpenproletariat and some weirdos.

  353. Jack D says:
    @istevefan

    Islam has very clear rules on how Christians and Jews are to be treated inside the land of Islam. As People of the Book they have a protected status and cannot be slain like heathens, but they have subservient status and must pay the jizya tax. Of course Muslim extremists don’t (despite their pretenses) really respect Islamic law and mistreat Christians along with everyone else.

    • Replies: @Ibound1
    , @notanon
  354. @dearieme

    Pretty good take. The Almighty has his ways and his plans and his timing.

    Don’t worry, your country will leave the EU eventually, and then the whole thing will either collapse or whither away on the vine.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  355. Ibound1 says:
    @Jack D

    Let us propose that “non-mistreatment” to Muslims living in the West. The Muslims can live among us as long as they pay a special per capita tax to us as a sign of their submission. They may not rule non-Muslims. If they cause trouble, death penalty. Let’s see, what else? Oh right – no one can convert to Islam and if you do it is also the death penalty. I don’t see how any Muslims could possibly object to that treatment.

  356. @Desiderius

    That looks interesting.

    I usually link to this interview as recommended reading for those who’ve read only Dawkins, Harris, and the like, and are enthralled by them.

    http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=7992

  357. Brilliant. The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

    The movie is rather different from the book, but I recommend both. Charles Laughton does a magnificent Quasimodo.

  358. It probably wasn’t arson. It was sheer incompetence. Everybody is an idiot nowadays. Even in France.

  359. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    Compare this to say, Judaism, where for a long time Jesus was condemned to a dung pit in hell as the son of a drunken whore and Roman soldier.

    This is not an accurate representation of the Jewish view of Jesus, ever. To the extent that Jews even believe that there is a hell (it’s not an important part of the theology), there are no dung pits, only fire and a soul only stays there for 12 months after death. While there is some speculation in Jewish sources that Jesus was fathered as a result of a rape by a Roman soldier (which is frankly more believable than the story that he is the product of virgin birth), I know of no sources that portray Mary as a drunk. Jews also deny that Jesus arose from the dead and ascended bodily to heaven and consider the various “miracles” that Jesus allegedly performed as magic tricks. These seem to be efforts to provide reasonable explanations for the otherwise impossible events described in the New Testament. You wouldn’t expect Jews to accept the magical aspects of the Jesus story any more than Christians accept that the stories of the pagan gods are literally true.

  360. CCZ says:

    So #Macron pledged to rebuild #NotreDame immediately “in a way consistent with our modern diverse nation.” Tweet got promptly deleted.

    http://archive.is/fUdwq#selection-3517.0-3537.95


    Perhaps this is the non-Muslim post-modernist vision?

    • Replies: @istevefan
    , @larry lurker
  361. dimples says:

    Notre Dame is the soul of France (or what is left of it). Now is a good time to restore the cathedral from the ground up, although I doubt if you can get enough one foot thick oak beams any longer. But since the beams are hidden in the roof above the vaulting they can be made from plywood and it will not matter. The cost will be in the billions but France will pay it.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
  362. notanon says:
    @Jack D

    the jizya tax under the Ottomans was the first-born male child as a slave.

  363. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    “This is not an accurate representation…”

    It is close to the Talmudic view of Jesus and Mary.

    You wouldn’t expect Jews to accept the magical aspects of the Jesus story any more than Christians accept that the stories of the pagan gods are literally true.

    Why not accept such magical aspects? Jews seem to accept the many magical aspects in the Torah.

    A nd not so much Jews not accepting these aspects as it is the unquenchable hatred of Jew for Christian for 2000 years.

    The original and longest lived anti semitism is Jew for Christian.

    Mamilla Pool.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  364. @Jack D

    You wouldn’t expect Jews to accept the magical aspects of the Jesus story any more than Christians accept that the stories of the pagan gods are literally true.

    Given that Christianity might be viewed as a Jewish heresy, a more apt analogy would be to Islam, viz Christians don’t consider Muhammad’s magical revelations from Allah to be literally true, since Islam is equally a Christian heresy.

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @C. ThunderCock
  365. bc says:
    @nebulafox

    Thanks for an informed view of Islam vis à vis the West. Shortly after 9/11, I undertook a cursory survey of Islam and the Middle East with the idea of understanding the “other side”, and came away with the impression that you also have given–monolithic Islam is an inchoate, ahistorical model not very useful in combatting terrorism or immigration/invasion.

  366. @MBlanc46

    St Denis was third century, three centuries before Islam.

    St George was even earlier. He’s also “tied to the repulse of Muslims” in medieval Europe. England, too.

  367. Dumbo says:
    @Jack D

    To the extent that Jews even believe that there is a hell

    Onkelos said to him: What is the punishment of that man, a euphemism for Jesus himself, in the next world? Jesus said to him: He is punished with boiling excrement. As the Master said: Anyone who mocks the words of the Sages will be sentenced to boiling excrement. And this was his sin, as he mocked the words of the Sages. The Gemara comments: Come and see the difference between the sinners of Israel and the prophets of the nations of the world. As Balaam, who was a prophet, wished Israel harm, whereas Jesus the Nazarene, who was a Jewish sinner, sought their well-being.

    https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.57a?lang=bi

    You wouldn’t expect Jews to accept the magical aspects of the Jesus story

    “On Passover Eve they hung the corpse of Jesus the Nazarene after they killed him by way of stoning. And a crier went out before him for forty days, publicly proclaiming: Jesus the Nazarene is going out to be stoned because he practiced sorcery, incited people to idol worship, and led the Jewish people astray. Anyone who knows of a reason to acquit him should come forward and teach it on his behalf. And the court did not find a reason to acquit him, and so they stoned him and hung his corpse on Passover eve.”

    https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.43a?lang=bi

    I know of no sources that portray Mary as a drunk

    Not a drunk, but an adulterer:

    “The Gemara asks: Why did they call him ben Setada, when he was the son of Pandeira? Rav Ḥisda says: Perhaps his mother’s husband, who acted as his father, was named Setada, but his mother’s paramour, who fathered this mamzer, was named Pandeira. The Gemara challenges: But his mother’s husband was Pappos ben Yehuda, not Setada. Rather, perhaps his mother was named Setada, and he was named ben Setada after her. The Gemara challenges: But his mother was Miriam, who braided women’s hair. The Gemara explains: That is not a contradiction; Setada was merely a nickname, as they say in Pumbedita: This one strayed [setat da] from her husband.”

    https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.67a?lang=bi

    • Replies: @Jack D
  368. @Hapalong Cassidy

    Stephan Patsis (yes, of Greek ancestry) got death threats for this strip:

  369. @Jack D

    more believable

    More accurately plausible rather than believable, given that it has been believed by a billion give or take.

    • Agree: Jack D
    • Replies: @Desiderius
  370. notanon says:
    @notanon

    thinking about this some more – in the context of people losing all faith in the truthfulness of their political-media class you could almost see “thinking the worst” as a kind of risk-minimizing behavior.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  371. @Desiderius

    Even if that Roman Centurion didn’t actually get in there, Christianity is all about a big hunk of Greco-Roman chocolate getting in your Hebraic peanut-butter.

    Yet a bastard son is still a son, and in this take the living, breathing Notre Dame was all yours. So maybe better for the Jews to lean toward Shapiro’s take rather than Marshall’s, if you take my meaning.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  372. Thirdtwin says:
    @JimB

    “…firefighter crews in Paris are loaded with Muslims…”

    Do you have a source for that? I’m not doubting you at all. It would explain this mention of prayer in an otherwise secular tweet by Ilhan Omar:

    “…Thinking of the people of Paris and praying for every first responder trying to save this wonder…”

  373. “Nostradamus predicted the fire!!
    ‘In the 6th month of the Golden Clothed
    Fearful fire at Nostre Dame
    Great joy of the wogs
    Sadness of the people of France’

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  374. Whiskey says: • Website

    Macron has announced that Notre Dame will be rebuilt along the lines of modern multicultural France.

    Presumably this means a mosque.

    Islam seems triumphant. Over 450 churches were burned in France last year. All arrested have been Muslims.

    Islam and jihad have something. Enslavement or death of White men. Its why so few White men convert and most White converts are women.

    What does the West have? To fight for and inspire young White men? Trannies? Bruce Jenner? Whores for rappers like the Kardashians? Triggly Puff? Groveling before rappers?

    The movement that answers this question will move and level mountains.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  375. @Whiskey

    What does the West have?

    What we always have. Jesus Christ, and him crucified, dead, resurrected, risen, and ascended to sit at the right hand of our heavenly Father, ever steadfast and faithful, never forsaking His people, no matter how far we fall.

  376. jim jones says:

    French Churches Vandalized in 2018:

  377. AndrewR says:
    @peterike

    Why destroy them when they can be made into mosques?

  378. Jack D says:
    @Desiderius

    You don’t have to go back to the 12th century to link Notre Dame with anti-Semitism. The state funeral of the anti-Semitic, pro-Nazi Vichy Propaganda Minister Henriot (assassinated by the Resistance) was presided over by Cardinal Suhard in Notre Dame Cathedral. Thousands of the faithful mourned him. The conservative elements in the Catholic Church were very closely connected with Vichy – to them (like some here), Judaism and Bolshevism were synonymous. After the war, De Gaulle shunned Suhard.

    All that being said, Notre Dame is just a (beautiful) pile of rocks and can’t be blamed for the actions of its human masters. However, for the time being I remain convinced that the mostly likely cause for the fire was not arson but a construction accident followed by various forms of negligence – just the usual level of human incompetence. Apparently the smoke alarms in the “forest” (the framework of ancient dry timbers that held up the roof) went off maybe 20 minutes before the fire was located (allowing it to spread) and it took the fire service maybe another hour to set up high pressure lines and get sufficient water onto the fire. So something that should have been put out by a fire extinguisher (or by the non-existent sprinkler system in the attic) turned into a massive conflagration.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  379. dwb says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    It is terrible to see the historic cathedral destroyed.

    From the perspective of a mass-attending Catholic, the most critical things to be saved were saved – the Crown of Thorns, a piece of the cross itself, and nails used in the crucifixion that Louis IX (Saint-Louis) retrieved from Constantinople – are among the most sacred relics of our faith. They apparently have been saved.

    We lived in Paris, and used to go the Notre-Dame often. It is a horrible loss. It makes me incredibly sad to think about it destroyed.

    From the perspective of a member of the faith, the church is a building. According to the Gospel of Saint-Matthew, wherever two believers gather, Jesus is there. Obviously, a holy site is consecrated. All altars in Catholic churches have relics in them. But the building itself is less important than the place. And the faithful who come.

    Recall that Jesus himself came into the world in a humble place for animals, not a grand cathedral.

    The edifice can be rebuilt. It will be.

    It is up to the faithful whether it is a holy place again, not the stonemasons who repair it.

  380. Thinker says:

    The current excuse is that it was an “accident”. I fear even if it’s arson, we will never know who really did it, because if it’s arson, violence will erupt in France, and Macron’s presidency will collapse into a smoldering heap. His handlers at the Rothschild bank just can’t have that.

    Unless, they can find someway to pin it on Iran, then voila! Reason for war! I’m sure the CIA will send in a team to “help” investigate in no time.

  381. @Jus' Sayin'...

    “the corrupt leadership and cultural parasites that brought this tragedy to pass” the tables of the money changers have been turned, let’s see how French Catholics respond.

  382. Jack D says:
    @anon

    Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    You bring up the one massacre of Christians by Jews in all of recorded history while the number of massacres of Jews by Christians is as countless as the stars in the sky.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @anon
    , @AnotherDad
    , @istevefan
  383. a reader says:
    @Jack D

    Hearsay is not admissible in court because it is so often unreliable.

    Except at the Nuremberg Trials.

    • Agree: JMcG
    • Replies: @Jack D
  384. @t

    LOL. Pure ethnocentric gold.

    Amazingly the most obvious notion–that maybe if the Jews (or anyone) do not want to integrate to the norms, values, culture and people of a nation, then maybe they should just stay the hell out?–has never ever occured to little Josh’s big Jewish brain.

    There is no entitlement to have anyone welcome you or accomodate you. There is doubly no requirement to welcome people who specifically do not want to integrate with you! Such a notion is flat out looney.

    The French were right to kick the Jews out. One of the wisest things they’ve ever done. Nations like England and France that did it went on to develop there own internal middle classes and prosper instead of having a external middle man minority extracting wealth. If every country in Europe had pursued the “integrate or get the hell out” policy much strife and tragedy could have been avoided.

  385. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    One?

    Thou uninformed.

    Many before and after.

    Plus,

    the other points.

  386. @notanon

    Bring down complexity, the most unpleasant aspect of modern life, at any cost! – This is often times the main driver behind this kind of thinking. This notion is understandable, but not that reasonable. It works at times and brings proper results, even, but it is still no sound method and thus neither too useful nor too good.

    • Replies: @notanon
  387. @Moses

    No doubt we’ll be hearing soon enough.

  388. @Cagey Beast

    If Nostradamus was still alive, I might quite easily predict his death. Sigh. Nostradamus, a trickster. One of the most successful tricksters of all time, though, I’d agree on that.

  389. a reader says:
    @Jack D

    Paris is full of African-Africans from the former French colonies.

    And this means … many !

  390. @Jack D

    You bring up the one massacre of Christians by Jews in all of recorded history while the number of massacres of Jews by Christians is as countless as the stars in the sky.

    More ethnocentric gold.

    I’ll assume you have a poetic license for the “as countless as the stars in the sky” and pass on that.

    The Jews were not to chained and dragged into our European homelands.

    The Jews could have packed up and left Europe, to go off and live somewhere else with someone else or by themselves creating their own nation. Resolved the issue by separatation. They didn’t do that.

    The Jews could have –like whatever Jewish ancestors i have–converted to the local religon and culture, integrated with the local people and just became French, or English or Dutch or German, etc. etc. Resolved the issue by integration. They didn’t do that either.

    The Jews insisted on living as a separate tribe, with their separate–we’re the chosen!–religion right in the middle of Christian Europe while trying to middle man a buck out of the local yokels. Basically it worked. The Jews had a much higher population expansion in Europe than the native Europeans. Your ancestors weren’t oppressed in the core biological sense of population expansion.

    Of course, diversity plus proximity creates conflict.

    Where Jews have had power, had the whip hand, they do not seem squeamish about dishing it out to their enemies. If your point is that the Jews in Europe as a minority were smart enough not to start fights that would end with them getting their asses kicked. Point taken.

    • Agree: bored identity
  391. Jack D says:
    @Dumbo

    The man called Yeshu in the Talmud may or may not be Jesus. I am not going to start a disputation of the Talmud with you – that’s really old school. The Talmud is a work from around 500AD – it does not meet modern standards of political correctness or adherence to fact.

    At this point, barely half of people in France (not just Jews and Muslims) accept the divinity of Jesus, so the Talmud is the least of your problems.

    • Replies: @Dumbo
    , @bored identity
  392. @AndrewR

    A week ago, the liberals were trying to make the church fires in the south a topic again. Perhaps, Jerrold Nadler will be more cautious now that the winds are shifting.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  393. @Harry Baldwin

    Notre Dame was built in the ages of Faith and The Faith is dead in France. I wouldn’t give a dime to Macron’s folly (his promise to rebuild)

    Catholic Prophecy foresees civil war breaking out in France and Italy about the same time (Civil war in England later) with the French finally, restoring the Monarchy The Fence Catholic Monarch wil team with a great Pope and they wil defeat the Russian and Prussians in Cologne and, finally, in Westphalia and the nature of the triumph wil make it clear to man that Gid intervened on behalf of the Monarch and Pope.

    The Catholic Monarch will then chase the invading Mahometan armies back into the middle east

  394. @David

    on a shelf too high for me to get at right now

    The Present West considering Her Glorious Past, in a nutshell.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    , @JMcG
  395. @Desiderius

    If he was French speaking, as I presume, then no.

    I myself, Catholic though I may be, find it impossible to dislike Bismarck. He knew just how far to go, and when to be magnanimous, as he was with poor Austria in 1866.

    Once he understood that the Kulturkampf wasn’t going as he had envisaged, there too he backed off.

    Above all, he would never have countenanced a war on two fronts.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  396. a reader says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Personally, I prefer the asymmetry and excess of Reims to the neater, tidier, perhaps even a bit sterile structure at Amiens.

    What about this building commissioned 60 years later by the richest man to roam the earth, ever.

  397. @Jack D

    So you completely dodge the question. There is worse in store for Jews than mere Christians if they continue to do so.

  398. @Anonymous

    The Augustiner-Museum in Freiburg – an absolute treasure! – Thanks for posting this.

  399. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    Are you going to start to list the Pogroms of 1821, 1859, 1905, etc., etc.?

  400. @PhysicistDave

    The most piquant side of the Pompidou Center saga is that Pompidou himself would have absolutely loathed it.

  401. @Chrisnonymous

    I had been thinking precisely that.

    And now I read that he is babbling about rebuilding it in a “multifaith” way.

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
  402. J.Ross says: • Website
    @byrresheim

    What’s moronic is officials who cannot be bothered to protect their patrimony taking time to maintain the “Trump is always stupid” order. Any time Trump says anything, sensible or otherwise, establishment coffee-fetchers are under orders to promptly call him an idiot. The effect is to grey out their scripted and unwavering outrage.

  403. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Cagey Beast

    A French political official on Fox attempted to point out the possibility of arson in light of the recent vandalism spree and was shouted down by Shepard Smith.

  404. a reader says:
    @Anonymous

    Muzzies really like to make stuff go kaboom.

    Grlz* already tried it 3 years ago.

    *They surprisingly failed.

  405. istevefan says:
    @CCZ

    I think it was Cologne Cathedral in Germany which got new stained glass windows in 2006, whose designs were not Christian at all. They were more secular than Christian. I fear this is what is in store for Notre Dame.

    • Replies: @kihowi
  406. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Muslim “sexual mores” are “rape a helpless victim who doesn’t matter, do not harass the daughter of a Muslim.” It’s like a car thief explaining to his son how to get a door open. People from the Christian sphere, especially in this thread, are stuck in this presupposition that everything worls like Christianity. That sort of works for parts of Buddhism but people really don’t get how alien Islam is. One of Islam’s greatest strengths is that it does not waste time asking people to wrestle with their nature.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  407. @PiltdownMan

    Keynes was upper-middle, and his accent should be called the classic Oxbridge one. Listen to Bertrand Russell for the authentic aristocratic voice of the era.

    The last person I knew who spoke it was Charles Stourton, 23rd Baron Stourton, 27th Baron Segrave, 26th Baron Mowbray, generally referred to as Lord Mowbray. He died in 2006, aged 83.
    It was a joy to listen to him.

    One whose accent I would love to hear (it must be available somewhere: he spoke on the wireless in his day) was Dean Inge. Born in 1860, educated at Eton and King’s College, Cambridge, he was a philosopher and a famously eloquent preacher and essayist, of decidedly right-wing views.

    He was a prophet too: the sort of English he spoke he said, was dying out, and would be replaced by a form of the lower-class London accent of his day. “Estuary English” it is now called, and he was precisely right.
    Rather gloriously (given that it was the accent of many of my own ancestors) he once wrote that the best English he ever heard spoken was in Boston, by the people we now call Brahmins. That too, of course, is now gone.

  408. Jack D says:
    @SF

    The part that was stone (no concrete except for the mortar and that was a mistake – modern cement mortar is harder than the stone and was causing damage) did not burn for the most part. If you notice, the inner ceiling and outer roofline of Notre Dame (of almost every cathedral) do not coincide – on the inside you see gothic stone vaulting and on the outside there was a pointy pitched A roof. The attic space in between (which normally is never seen by the public) was filled with so many 800 year old massive structural timbers holding up the roof that it was called “the forest”. Apparently of all the things that were neglected on the Cathedral the roof was not one of them so as a consequence the timbers were bone dry. Even the spire was made from lead covered wood. The wood is what burned like crazy.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  409. Jack D says:
    @a reader

    If only them Nazis had been given a fair trial they would have got off , for sure.

    • Replies: @a reader
  410. J.Ross says: • Website
    @PhysicistDave

    The “I knew a guy argument” is unacceptable regarding black criminality because of overwhelming statistical phenomena, but less acceptable with Islam because Islam has clearly laid out standing orders.
    I knew a Muslim (great guy, very sharp, sometime guest on BBC) who loved doppelbock.

  411. istevefan says:
    @SF

    Watch this clip of a small helicopter dousing an apartment fire. Given the nearby river, it would have been easy for such helicopters to dip their buckets and then make continuous drops. And given the size of the helicopter and the height of the drop, the water stream would not have been as harsh as what you have when a large C-130 dumps several times the amount of water at a greater height and speed.

  412. I did some searching yesterday for expressions of condolence and solidarity from our Muslim brothers, but came up empty.
    Shockin’, innit?

  413. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Prof. Woland

    Yes, after years of black men setting church fires, they finally found one white kid dumb enough to do that, so naturally they say nothing about the others and push the white supremacist delusion.

  414. Dumbo says:
    @Jack D

    I am not familiar with the Talmud at all, but this is a Jewish source, and they translated it as Jesus, so I guess they know what they are talking about.

    Anyway, the Talmud is a collection of discussions and so it usually contradicts itself.

    barely half of people in France (not just Jews and Muslims) accept the divinity of Jesus, so the Talmud is the least of your problems.

    Yes, I think I said something similar in some other thread. But I think “half of people” in France is an optimistic thought, maybe more like 20%?

    Anyway, hard to feel too much pity for the French, as they are among those who most promoted multiculturalism and assimilation. I’m not even sure there is a point of return for them. It really seems to be one of the countries in worse situation now in Europe (in what concerns immigration).

  415. Marat says:
    @istevefan

    You may have already read this, but Nassim Nicholas Taleb has a short essay explaining the outsized impact of a noisy minority:

    https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15

    • Replies: @istevefan
  416. @CCZ

    There are enough people googling the alleged Macron quote that “consistent with our modern diverse nation” autocompleted for me.

    The archive link is a tweet with a screenshot of the tweet, not the tweet itself. Any other sources on this? If he said it to reporters there should be recordings out there.

  417. kihowi says:
    @istevefan

    I wouldn’t be surprised. Cologne and its cathedral are a depressing place. Especially coming out of the train station, everything is baldy aged 1960s hostile modernism with a catheral in the middle of it, looking out of place. It’s where all those women were vibrantly raped a while ago.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  418. @jim jones

    “I have some Catholic neighbours, I will have to ask them later why God did not simply make it rain to put out the fire.” – –

    – – I frankly don’t know and am a protestant, sorry. My guess is: God thinks well about all of mankind, be they more or less gifted. – Ah – and then this: Had God sent rain – where would you have ended up, without your ages-old question to ask?

    • Replies: @JMcG
  419. @Robert E Lee

    REL. I could have used the Troll button, but I would rather say you are one.

  420. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Jus, Sign of the times. Our last two presidents seem to have no religious footing unless it is for a photo op.

  421. @Dr. X

    It’s also quite a coincidence that Michelle Obama is in Paris signing books. Her dissembling pontifications followed by Barry’s tweets are really quite sickening.

  422. @t

    Do too — It’s that hotel on Miami Beach!

  423. @jim jones

    jim, Thanks, but only black churches in America warrant MSN coverage.

  424. @Charles Pewitt

    Charles, there is no Jewish edifice in the whole world that compares to a cathedral.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  425. Jack D says:
    @byrresheim

    See the video at #431. Looks highly effective to me and does not appear to damage the structure. It appears to snuff out the fire instantly. The roof of a building is designed to withstand a deluge of rain – it shouldn’t be hard to figure out how much water that is and adjust the altitude and speed of the aircraft and the rate of release to be less than the carrying capacity of the roof.

    Fire departments have been around for a long time and they are one of those places where people tend to get mired in tradition – we do it this way because we have always done it this way. Usually these traditions reflect the hard won lessons of the past and it’s generally good to stick to them and not try to reinvent the wheel on a daily basis. But sometimes (such as on 9/11) these traditions backfire on you because you are in a situation that is way outside the usual parameters – you need to keep your mind open to the question of whether you are in such a situation and need to start improvising because the usual way is not going to work.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
  426. @wren

    wren, thank you, but Obama said the greatest sound in the world was the Muslim call to prayers.

  427. Jack D says:
    @kihowi

    If Cologne is a depressing looking place filled with ugly 1960s buildings, you may thank the RAF and Hitler.

  428. @Anon7

    Anon, there is an area of Buffalo called Polonia. Magnificent Catholic churches were walking distance apart. Today I could take you to three that are now mosques, stripped of all Christian images.

  429. JimB says:
    @Steve Sailer

    And everybody is saying this wasn’t arson.

    Probably just garden variety stupidity, but I still wonder about who was on the employee list of the cheap dick company which caused billions of euros in damage while doing a 5 million euro restoration. Everyone on the payroll should be publicly guillotined.

  430. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    John, pushing the “Agree” button would not do your comment justice. So well stated my friend.

  431. @europeasant

    They also made the grave mistake of bringing their secret weapon – coffee.

  432. Jack D says:
    @SF

    There don’t seem to be many photos of the “forest” of Notre Dame but here’s one:

    This looks like just a small section – the rounded east end of the Cathedral (the end opposite the two towers) but the network of timbers would have covered the entire roof.

  433. @Kratoklastes

    Krap, oh did I miss spell that? Today, the construction of a structure such as Notre Dame would be hailed as a wonderous public works project, employing a diverse crew that received specific government training after having learned next to nothing in public schools. I am glad Steve edits on a whim so we can be exposed to the thinking of people like you. Wish you well, really. Oh, and historically Jesus existed so shove the ignorant Jeebus crap.

  434. @byrresheim

    prima facie nonsense

    If it were prima facie, you wouldn’t have felt compelled to offer your (non-)evidence.

    The saying goes that if you’re going to strike at the king, you’d best kill him, yet you strike and strike and strike with your dull knives and land nary a scratch all the while strutting around like you’re some kind of hero.

    Cervantes could never have imagined such a spectacle.

  435. @David

    I’ve read that Notre Dame had been allowed to fall into a very poor state of repair by the 19th century and the publication of Hugo’s Hunchback of Notre Dame renewed interest in it and helped inspire a restoration at that time. (I just Googled this to confirm it.)

  436. a reader says:
    @Jack D

    For invading Poland, Finland, the Baltic States, and exterminating their Christian populations, the Soviets got off rather lightly.

  437. I still find the fire odd. Surely, a building as important and vulnerable as Notre Dame rates a night watchman?

    Assuming there was one, how could the fire have progressed as far as it obviously did before being detected?

    Obviously, the possibilities are legion, but my guess is that the responsible party was asleep, absent, or otherwise not on the job — and he belongs to some group that makes it politically incorrect to say ‘the _________ watchman was asleep.’

  438. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Wild Geese, Mona Lisa is not a beutiful woman, but the panting is a beautiful work of art. I have seen neither Reims or Amiens, but Notre Dame moved me.

  439. Matra says:
    @Desiderius

    If you don’t think Trump’s water tankers remark – as if the French experts weren’t aware of all the options – wasn’t cringeworthy I don’t know what to say. He came across like a blowhard armchair expert injecting himself into the event.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  440. @istevefan

    Right on target.

    The mistake most of these guys who are defending Islam make is the Fallacy of Composition.

    It goes like this:

    I know a Muslim guy and he’s really nice. Intelligent too. He doesn’t want to convert me, or kill me.

    Therefore a community of 100 million Muslims would behave no differently.

    Simply, bullsh*t. A bogus argument.

    • Agree: istevefan, GermanReader2
  441. @J.Ross

    Thank you for speaking the plain truth, unlike some on this thread.

  442. @Mr. Anon

    Mr. Anon, I got out my copy of cathedral building, simple text titled “Cathedral” and relearned that the vaulted ceiling were supported by wooden lagging during construction and latter removed. But the peaked roofs were all supported by wooden trusses. The Basillica of our Lady of victory in nearby Lackawanna, NY, has it’s roofs supported by a wrought iron frame. There was a documentory on local TV about it’s construction.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @Jack D
  443. @Jack D

    Hah. What a dummy I am. All this time and I didn’t realize that it was Hitler piloting those Lancasters.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  444. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Interesting info. At any rate, I daresay your viewpoint will prevail. If we get that far.

  445. @David

    Notre Dame was heavily restored in the period 1848-73 by Lassus and Viollet-le-Duc.
    As Wikipedia, for once accurately, comments:

    Eugène Emmanuel Viollet-le-Duc (27 January 1814 – 17 September 1879) was a French architect and theorist, famous for his interpretive restorations of medieval buildings. Born in Paris, he was a major Gothic Revival architect

    In other words, care was taken to consult original records and drawings. But where absent, as they mostly were, more speculative restoration was put in place. What you see of the interior is largely of their design. Like many buildings heavily restored during the Victorian period, much of what you see is that of the restorers. So, Notre Dame is a great loss. But it is not comparable to the loss of the great cathedrals and monasteries which have come more or less intact from the Middle Ages.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  446. @Jack D

    I toured the attic in the Church of St. Nicolaas in Elburg, Netherlands (and bought the organ recital CD). Massive oak timber frame construction, notched and pegged. Dry and dusty as could be, a credit to the skill of the craftsmen who built it. But, as you say, an arsonist’s wet (?) dream.

    A roof isn’t held up with masonry. Even today’s brick or block house uses wood trusses or rafters to hold up the roof.

  447. Gary says:
    @Dumbo

    You hit the nail on the head. Cultural Marxists trying to save Macron

  448. I see Notre Dame burning as the inverse of Jefferson and Adams both dying on the 50th anniversary of the Declaration. Before Easter, at the most visible Western-Christian cultural center of France – the Western European country with the highest Muslim population.

    I’m somewhere between deist and agnostic, but sometimes you have to wonder if there is indeed an omnipotent G_d, and he’s sending us a message.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  449. Neoconned says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve I attend comic con every summer at the LACC. I can recall looking thru the glass east and seeing no towers….that lasted til about 2015. I came back in summer 2016 and 4 or 5 towers were now up SE of DTLA.

    Some of the locals I chatted with told me they were condo towers. When I returned in 2017 I counted 8 odd rowers done or near done…..with 5 odd more under construction

  450. @byrresheim

    The village is destroyed? Gosh, you are thin-skinned.

  451. JMcG says:
    @Desiderius

    Ouch. Not a personal comment to either of you, but that was a bullseye.

  452. @stillCARealist

    … or whither away on the vine.

    Whither wendeth hither vine?

    • LOL: Liza
  453. JMcG says:
    @Jack D

    Airplanes, Gothic architecture, is there anything this guy isn’t an expert on? Blind spots maybe?

    • Replies: @istevefan
    , @bored identity
  454. JMcG says:
    @Dieter Kief

    Dieter, you’re not a bad guy for a Protestant. I think you are joining Buffalo Joe in the ranks of my favorite commenters. If ever you come to the east coast of the US, let me know.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  455. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Used my agree, but agree.

  456. 1/2 The former chief engineer of Notre-Dame on the thesis of the accident: “Old oak, it takes a lot of kindling to burn it … There are 2 men constantly day and night to investigate an alarm and call the fire department … “” I’m stunned “

    “In 2010, we overhauled all electrical installations, there is no possibility of a short circuit, all the detection and fire protection of ND (was extensive)”

    For the chief architect of historical monuments responsible for the restoration of the spire, Phil. Villeneuve, “the work had not started yet, only the scaffolding were being assembled (…) the hypothesis of the hot spot is not the right one.”

    • Replies: @Jack D
  457. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    You have a text on Cathedral building? I’ve never wished I were Italian before, but if you get a copy of that…

  458. Eagle Eye says:
    @Old Palo Altan

    And now I read that [Maricon] is babbling about rebuilding [Notre Dame] in a “multifaith” way.

    If Maricon really said that, then we are 100% looking at a Deep State operation ordered by Maricon personally as a distraction from his problems with the still uppity citizenry.

  459. In the wake of the tragic burning of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France some commentators suggest this is a sign of the decline of Christianity in Europe if not the world. Some have referred to our times as a “Post-Christian” era.

    While it’s true that the influence of Christianity on the culture has waned as post modern paganism exerts its influence, as an eschatological optimist I believe that we are in a Pre-Christian era. As Charles Spurgeon once said, “It would be easy to show that at our present rate of progress the kingdoms of this world never could become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ. Indeed, many in the Church are giving up the idea of it except on the occasion of the advent of Christ, which, as it chimes in with our own idleness, is likely to be a popular doctrine. I myself believe that King Jesus will reign, and the idols be utterly abolished. . . . The Holy Ghost would never suffer the imputation to rest upon His holy name that He was not able to convert the world.”

    Ancient Rome could not stamp out the church and the emergence of Islam could not. Tyrants like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot could not destroy the church. After Peter’s confession of belief that Jesus was the Anointed One, Jesus said, “… I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    The cathedral like any other church building is just that: a building. It is not a church or the Church. The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is all believers from all time who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as the propitiation for their sin.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  460. Anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:

  461. @Kratoklastes

    The world sucks. Notre Dame did not. That is all ye need to know.

  462. notanon says:
    @Jack D

    that’s sad – i love old wood

  463. @Jack D

    I admit the Cologne cathedral is surrounded by rather ugly buildings but the cathedral itself is very impressive.

    • Agree: Liza
  464. @Jack D

    OTOH, much of today’s rebuilt Nuremberg (Old Town) looks great.

  465. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    If one is a keen observer of the passing scene he will notice that the fine hand of God makes his presence known in the affairs of man.

  466. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Enemy of Earth

    The cathedral like any other church building is just that: a building. It is not a church or the Church. The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is all believers from all time who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as the propitiation for their sin.

    Well, at least you spelled “catholic” with a lower case C.

  467. @Jack D

    I’ve seen fire retardant (kind of an orange colored substance) used on forest fires. I wonder if it would have been effective on Notre Dame.

  468. Escher says:
    @AndrewR

    If it was Muslim arson, the truth will be buried deeper than the Mariana trench.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @J.Ross
  469. istevefan says:
    @JMcG

    He’s a renaissance man.

  470. notanon says:
    @jim jones

    why God did not simply make it rain to put out the fire

    if God judges behavior then people need to be free to choose.

    you may not agree with the premise but what follows is logically consistent.

  471. Jack D says:
    @ThreeCranes

    Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
  472. @dwb

    2 Corinthians 5:1-10:

    For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

    6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  473. @dimples

    I believe donations will pour in from all over the world.

  474. Jack D says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    I wonder when they do the replacement whether they will try to duplicate the timbers or replace them with a more modern material? I would vote for something lighter and less flammable. It wouldn’t detract from the appearance of the Cathedral because no one sees them. St. John the Divine in upper Manhattan has a steel framework for the roof. You can see it is a lot less dense than the “forest”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  475. Jack D says:
    @Cagey Beast

    Maybe it’s true, maybe he’s just covering his ass. Maybe someone putting the scaffolding together dropped a lit cigarette.

  476. Jack D says:
    @Verymuchalive

    Le Duc thought that he could out-Gothic the “Goths” – that he could channel what they WOULD have wanted. Of course a lot of what he built had a lot more to do with Victorian tastes than with authentic Gothic architecture. It’s really hard to do “authentic” period pieces – if you look at Hollywood costume dramas from various decades you can usually tell what decade they are from because they look more like the era that they are filmed in than they look like ancient Romans or whatever. This is true right up to our time when we start to see black “Romans”.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
  477. @JMcG

    J, I will ignore your snark, but this is a very simple book, with sketches, that follows the building of a mythical Cathedral. Found it at the library book sale. Paid a buck. Title is “Cathedral”, author is David Macaulay, Publisher, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1973. Text is folksy and the drawings are cartoonish, but the description of the building is instructive. Only 78 pages, every page with an illustration. Like a course from your favorite HS teacher who made learning fun. Good luck finding it.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  478. While replying to JMcG about the book “Cathedral, the story of it’s construction” I found that there is a animated video of the book and the construction of a Cathedral. Not the most complex video but very informative and entertaining. Book got very good reviews for a 80 page book.

  479. @JMcG

    You have a text on Cathedral building?

    It’s likely Cathedral by David Macauley. He has a great book series geared towards kids— Castle, Pyramid, etc. Some were made into specials that aired on PBS. Cathedral opens with a fire that destroys a different Notre-Dame.

    Castle was my favorite:

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @JMcG
  480. @Matra

    There are two comments on this thread that refute your take. Experts are people too – a lot of our experts have been wrong about just about everything, which is how Trump got elected – but even if the French firefighters were on a higher level than the norm, and it has since been made clear that they are, no one knows all the options. Trump having been involved in fighting the California fires of course has some knowledge of that latest techniques in firefighting, and there is absolutely nothing cringeworthy in showing one’s concern and offering what one can to help.

    Of course the real flaw in Trump’s tweet was that even if he were right, there wouldn’t be enough time to get the tankers there. But if you’re cringing about that, that’s your Trump Derangement, not anything he did wrong.

  481. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    PBS really kicks the living shit out of NPR.

  482. It could be much worse:

  483. @ThreeCranes

    I haven’t reached it much since the iphone came out either. We’ve all fallen short of the glory of God.

    It will probably take some veritable hits from the Confucians to awake us from our slumber.

  484. @Escher

    Until it is useful. Which may be sooner than you think.

  485. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Probably a professional burn job.
    Similar thugs destroying the Mosque of Samarra and the 3 WTC towers?
    We are in a time of ugliness, devolving.
    Replace the cathedral with an out house.
    Toilet better represents current France.
    And Europe.

  486. Dube says:

    Macron in today’s NYT: “So, yes, we will rebuild Notre-Dame Cathedral, more beautiful than ever, and I want this to be finished in five years,” Mr. Macron said. “We can do it, and we will mobilize to do so.”

    More beautiful than ever…!

  487. @Anonymous Jew

    agnostic

    We are all of us, men of good faith, more or less agnostic before the Almighty.

    It is time for Odysseus to finally return home to clear out the gnostic suitors from his home and hearth.

  488. @Robert E Lee

    Ah, the basement boy presumes to misappropriate the name of the great Robert E. Lee. When you stand in that great day, and answer for your deeds, remember your choice today.

  489. @Old Palo Altan

    My sense is that any nation would be more than well-served to have Bismarck at the helm, but that may be my German half speaking.

  490. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Spoken like a true Frenchman, Jean.

  491. @Desiderius

    I’d give President Trump the benefit of the doubt in this instance. A billionaire real-estate developer who has built, bought out, or franchised his name to numerous high-rise buildings probably has had some exposure to the subject of fire-fighting approaches to higher elevation fires.

  492. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Joe, my apologies. That didn’t go over in print like it would in a bar. Never in life would I attack my Catholic Italian cousins, or you personally.

  493. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    the deeply vibrant religious culture that gave birth to Notre Dame is now dead

    It is not. There is a remnant: “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” The Scriptures testify against you.

    But then you know this, or you would not write:

    The Catholic Faith, though, like its savior, will be resurrected. But there will be many dark days like this – and darker still – before this time of scourging comes to a merciful end.

    Be careful not to succumb to despair. That path is the impulsive response of the Eeyore brigade here. Do not join them. Their shortsightedness is the council of defeat.

  494. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Escher

    Over the past few years, there have been a lot of European “gas leaks,” including a recent one in a historical Paris building that didn’t have gas lines, and at least one of which released nails (no doubt precipitating from the ambient steel secreted by climate change). Except for one in Hungary all have been under-reported and quite carefully labeled gas leaks and absolutely nothing else.
    Earlier today I wanted to link a Wired article about leadership chaos at FaceZuck. I wanted to use it to show that purity is a trap for newcomers. Try as I might, I couldn’t find any information past the flat out lying. i wanted to say, “get past those first three paragraphs about Russians hacking the election and Marina Abramovic not existing, because paragraph four is gold, Mark throws an Octavian doll at his second niece twice removed.” But it was not only propaganda, but warmed-over propaganda, refuted by establishment sources.
    We really are going to a place where the Mighty Wurlitzer is just flat out lying to you all the time and you’re better off ignoring it.

  495. @Jack D

    Le Duc thought that he could out-Gothic the “Goths” – that he could channel what they WOULD have wanted. Of course a lot of what he built had a lot more to do with Victorian tastes than with authentic Gothic architecture.

    Viollet-le-Duc did great work on Notre-Dame. See my comment above about the spire (with detailed pics—click to enlarge).

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  496. @Jack D

    Maybe someone putting the scaffolding together dropped a lit cigarette.

    His point is that a lit cigarette could not ignite anything sufficient to account for what happened.

    Ass covering? You are overreaching. Whatever ‘official’ report the French produce, we know we cannot trust it. Maybe this was some accident. But tell me Jack, if you knew truth would out, and had skin in the game, which way would you bet?

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
    , @Jack D
  497. Lagertha says:
    @JimB

    It all seems too sinister, once again…too close to the timing of Christ Church for Christ’s sake.

    I am so jaded that I believe setting this fire was intentional – no renovation of rare, Medieval, iconic structures is handled this poorly that fire is a thing that could happen (hmmmm, something really did happen, here, in Paris) – this is total bullshit. Notre Dame is the oldest, tallest symbol of Western Civ: Twin Towers came down; now, the most iconic symbol left unscathed for centuries, in a modern day, European, conflict zone, has been destroyed by people who live to hate.

  498. Lagertha says:
    @JimB

    It all seems too sinister, once again…too close to the timing of Christ Church for Christ’s sake.

    I am so jaded that I believe setting this fire was intentional. No renovation of rare, Medieval, iconic structures is handled this poorly that fire is a thing that could happen – (hmmmm; something really did happen, here, in Paris) – this smells bad and phony.

    Notre Dame is the oldest, tallest symbol of Western Civ: Twin Towers came down; now, the most iconic, tall symbol left unscathed for centuries, in a modern day, European, conflict zone, has been destroyed by people who live to hate Western Civilization and European people. I am convinced this was intentionally started since architectural renovations of this level, are coordinated like open heart surgery. Somebody just wanted to burn it down.

  499. @J.Ross

    If all I can manage for an enemy is little Ben Shapiro I might as well just hang it up and go play with my boys.

  500. notanon says:
    @Dieter Kief

    yeah i agree – just thinking aloud about the consequences of lack of trust in the elite.

    interesting possibility in terms of people “believing the worst” conspiracy theory – i wonder if the one that eventually takes hold won’t be “muslims did it to turn notre dame into a mosque” but “macron did it to turn notre dame into a mosque.”

  501. Anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross

  502. nebulafox says:
    @PhysicistDave

    Ah, I just can’t take the SJWs all that seriously. It’s actually better that they become the face of the progressive project as much as possible before they burn out. They might be in the spirit of the Bolsheviks in terms of being pseudo-intellectuals alien to their own society, inevitably misproduced by a sclerotic system. But the Bolsheviks were no-kidding terrorists, if increasingly marginalized ones before WWI rescued them-bombings, robberies, assassinations, all manner of illegal, violent activity that, in tandem with Okhrana reprisals, made late Tsarist Russia such a tense place. I can’t see even a civilizational catastrophe like that giving the SJWs real power, independently of their oligarchic and media patrons. It’s require them to get off of Twitter and do something.

    Their oligarchic and media buddies are a different story… if we’re headed for a new Dark Ages, I’ll at least know who to blame when I’m busy preserving knowledge for a new Petrarch to pick up some day. But first I’ve got to acquire that knowledge.

    (Who knows, maybe I’ll become a libertarian like you. I’m gonna go as close to blank-slate as is possible and start afresh.)

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  503. nebulafox says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Essentially. This is why I’m not particularly worried about it in the long run. I’m typing this from a Muslim country right now, and I can see the evidence all around me.

    However, globalization and industrialization has made a more orthodox form of Islam popular in a lot of countries that previously had a default mode of local traditions mixed in with Islam. People being people, they might not actually take all the rules seriously in their day-to-day life, but they’ll also feel pressure to conform. It doesn’t take much.

    It’s a fascinating paradox to see in real time.

    >But the idea that Europeans would convert en masse to Islam would actually be anathema to most immigrants if they gave the idea 5 seconds deep thought (which, admittedly, they probably don’t).

    There are a few who do, but they tend to be the types who actually *want* Islam to become more modern and “Western” within the Islamic World proper. Many are well-educated skeptics who can’t bring themselves to be honest and leave the religion (to be fair to them, the barriers are a lot steeper than in the West), or at best, are akin to cultural Christians you see in the West who don’t take the holy book literally and focus on the social/community aspects of the faith. Unlike in much of the West, though, they are still very much a minority in their own societies, not least due to Islam’s programmatic nature.

    Your average underclass loser Muslim in Western Europe, by contrast, desperately wants an identity for himself. If all the kafirs for whom he is trained to have so much contempt for adopt the religion: well, that kind of destroys the purpose.

    This has happened before within Islam: it was one of the major causes of the downfall of the Umayyads, which had profound consequences. A lot of things you’ll see within Islam have Zoroastrian origins for a reason.

  504. nebulafox says:
    @South Texas Guy

    >What make the muslim thing such a threat is the very large support network they enjoy.

    I’m not as off as you think. A pretty solid majority of Muslims-especially in Europe-have views on atheists, Jews, feminists, LGBT people, separation of church and state, and a whole lot else that secular, left-wing Westerners would find deeply shocking. Were they not Oppressed (TM) under Current Wisdom, they’d be condemned as considerably bigger raging bigots than most conservative working-class white people. America is luckier because for most of our history, we’ve been careful about who we import from that part of the world: not that the modern Democrats wouldn’t love to change that.

    Most of them are not going to strap on bombs and take up guns over it, because they aren’t evil or crazy. But social segregation and ghettoization is already on the table in most of Western Europe. Conditional, ambiguous views on the jihadis, or states that support them, are also there to anybody who bothers to pay attention to what European Muslims, particularly younger ones, actually think. And Muslims who actually do want to assimilate to Western norms will have a tougher time doing so. It’s not encouraging.

    The Islamic World itself is a different story, better in some ways, worse in others. I think a good start would be distancing ourselves from a certain government that does everything it can to make sure the jihadis they produce make trouble outside their borders and tolerates zakat money given to the crazies.

    >What make the muslim thing such a threat is the very large support network they enjoy.

    The Islamic World is in for a rough time over the next century as they tried to reconcile their faith to modernity. The West should stay out of it as much as possible. Let things take their natural course.

    If they attack us, by all means, unleash hell. Within our own nations, obviously, don’t tolerate anything smacking of Islamism. But as infidel cultures, attempting to define what Islam “really is” (as progressives are wont to do) or the political systems in Islamic countries is highly counterproductive: it’ll be automatically be an open target for reactionary attacks solely by virtue of our association with it.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  505. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    Ah, so you are familiar with the Talmud passage. For the record, I’m not a Christian (I personally think Jesus was a well-intentioned but delusional Palestinian Jewish apocalyptic who Paul transformed into the Logos), so I’m not being condemnatory. This was after Christianity was adopted by the same Roman state who attempted to culturally exterminate Judaism and was still regularly persecuting it, so the level of dislike is understandable. It got filtered out within the succeeding centuries and has little to do with Judaism beyond that. I’ll confess that stating “long time” was inaccurate. Nevertheless it was there theologically… once. Islam has never had a corollary to this contempt because they viewed him as another prophet from God-Muslims won’t usually even have truck with the idea that he was a nice hippie type or a mere social revolutionary. There’s a fundamental difference, not least because as Johann Ricke mentioned, it might well be that Islam stemmed in part from the heretical non-trinitarian Christian sects that sought refuge in Arabia during late antiquity.

    (It’s pretty well agreed upon that Muhammad was one of many in a new generation of apocalpytic monotheist-prophet leaders that arose during the societal chaos of bubonic-plagued ravaged Great War-era Arabia. For her part, Mary is mentioned more in the Qu’ran than in the New Testament: as a superior example of womanhood to the Prophet’s gossipy wives.)

    Naturally, this doesn’t change the fact that Christianity is viewed as inferior to Islam, and just like any other non-Muslim minority (in many Muslim countries, this includes “heretics” like the Ahmadis, Shi’ites in Sunni dominated ones, etc), their theological position in Islamic society is one of protected submission. Their practical position is, at best, an unstated exclusion from the mainstream culture, unless the country is home to large or powerful non-Muslim minorities who have to be placated. But if you ask your average Muslim their opinion of Christianity, it’ll nevertheless usually be much more positive than their opinion of Judaism or atheism: and it’ll definitely be higher than the *typical* opinion coming from your average affluent Western secularist or Jew, from my experience.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  506. Pericles says:
    @jim jones

    When you have them tied up in your basement?

  507. @Reg Cæsar

    On their calendar. Our April 15th would be a different date every year.

    Yes, but terrorism is for our edification. That’s why they attacked Benghazi on September 11.

  508. Pericles says:
    @PhysicistDave

    There are clearly a lot of Muslims who respect meritocracy and freedom of expression — one lives across the street from me.

    Do you regularly tell him his so-called god doesn’t exist? You being an atheist and all.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  509. @Jack D

    The man called Yeshu in the Talmud may or may not be Jesus.

    I am not going to start a disputation of the Talmud with you – that’s really old school.

    Thou shall not start disputation of the Talmud with…you.

    That’s totally legit Talmudic explanation that could, or could be not be used equally in the old and the new school of adherence to facts.

    Or is it?

    Yeh-SHU-ah, why not?

    bored identity strongly believes that you may have, or may have not a special space in Tdzak D’s two millennia old/ new school Talmudictionary of Well-Chosen Insults for Goykophage, and Other Paramecia Organisms:

    Or does he?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  510. @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    I can testify that a dropped cigarette has the potential to start a blaze. While working on a barn roof one bright windy day I tossed my lighted cigarette over the side. It was not long before someone yelled smoke. It seems the cigarette had fallen on top of some very dry wood shingles and they ignited. Needless to say the roofing crew rapidly descended the roof and hastened to extinguish the fire. If more time had been taken and no water nearby the entire barn could have gone down in flames.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  511. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Viollet-le-Duc was a top class Gothic Revival architect. But don’t take his restoration as being equivalent to original mediaeval work. It’s a loss, but not of the same order as original mediaeval fabric.
    I sincerely hope that Notre Dame is left as is. It should be preserved as a historical monument. It should not be re-re-restored. It has been owned by the French State since 1905. I feel the worst though. Especially with a sleazebag like Macron in charge.
    PS Mr Steve, over 500 replies – about the Notre Dame. And no sight of Arabs in planes smashing into its towers. Must be a record.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  512. @Jack D

    Jews also deny that Jesus arose from the dead and ascended bodily to heaven and consider the various “miracles” that Jesus allegedly performed as magic tricks.

    I informed my 6-year-old daughter that Jesus was always obedient and always put his toys away. She replied that the t0ys were not put away physically, but by magic, so this did not count.

    So apparently this view of Jesus is quite widespread, even in nominally Christian circles.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  513. Jack D says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Not true. Not only were those beams tinder dry but there was a generous bed of flammable dust around them. Apparently the smoke alarm panel was mis-labeled so when the alarm went off (long before open flames were seen), they looked in the wrong area (and therefore found nothing). And there were no firewalls in the attic – once the fire got going it raced thru the whole space. And no sprinklers. They knew that they had a ticking time bomb and did nothing about it. A watchman would visit the attic a couple of times a day – meaningless when the whole thing went up in an hour. Yet this worked for decades because there was nobody up there normally and they purposely didn’t run any wiring thru so there was no chance of an electrical fire. But once you turned the isolated attic into a lively construction scene with all sorts of people coming and going, all bets were off.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  514. Jack D says:
    @bored identity

    A little bit incoherent but I appreciate the effort. I wouldn’t do the same for you.

  515. @Jack D

    Funny, Jack. The NYTimes used the same expression “forest” of wood in an article the title of which included the phrase “it was inevitable”.

    It’s almost as though you two were reading from the same playbook. Nah, that couldn’t be. You’re just an impartial observer, calling out all the anti-Semites you find in these comment sections.

    What I want to know is, is how an attic which had survived for hundreds of years (and one which contained no electricity) just spontaneously burst into flames–“inevitably” as it were? And while you’re reflecting on that conundrum, consider this; America is chock full of homes with attics made up of wooden rafters, joists, floors and trusses. Why don’t they just spontaneously ignite? And what’s even more perplexing is that in most cases, electrical wiring does run in the attics of those millions of homes. And yet they just sit there, tinderboxes just waiting for…..for what?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  516. Jack D says:
    @Verymuchalive

    Agree. I’ve seen engravings of Notre Dame without its spire (which went missing around the time of the Revolution until le Duc put one back) but I haven’t been able to find any images of the original spire. I gather though that it was not as grand as le Duc’s. Chartres does nicely without any spire at the transept (although 2 spectacular towers at the front) while Rouen is a bit over the top – like a mini Eiffel Tower on top of the Cathedral (for a few short years in the 19th century it was the world’s tallest bldg). Notre Dame’s seemed to be a little bit out of proportion to the rather modest towers but it was so familiar that it seemed right . As one of the first Gothic Cathedrals the towers of Notre Dame are rather squat compared to the High Gothic churches – the price of being first. Probably the original spire was equally modest.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  517. Anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @Simply Simon

    The weather in northern France has been cold and wet for weeks.

  518. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    It got filtered out within the succeeding centuries

    More like beaten out – the Church did not take kindly to editions of the Talmud with these passages in them.

    I agree with your main point though – in general Islam has a (somewhat) positive view of Jesus as a lesser prophet (Mohamed being the greatest and final prophet) while Judaism does not recognize him as a prophet at all but as a sinner and trickster – a sort of Judean Uri Geller.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    , @Desiderius
  519. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    What is really scary is that (even putting aside the Saudis – the Wahhabi were always crazy but in the past harmless because they didn’t have 2 shekels to rub together – oil changed that big time) the trend in Islamic countries is AWAY from modernization – if you look at pictures of Cairo or Kabul or Tehran from the 1960s they look completely modern (at least among the elites) – not a headscarf in sight. Now even places like Turkey and Indonesia that always had rather lite versions of Islam are now swinging toward being devout. Part of it is demographic in that the more religious countryside out reproduced the Westernized cities but part of it is a conscious reject of Western depravity. Maybe a moderate form of Islam could have been reconciled with the conservative mores of pre-1960s America (although Qutb was shocked even by what he saw in the ’40s in conservative Greeley, Colorado) but the only thing it can do with modern Globohomo, trans loving America is to reject it utterly and completely.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    , @nebulafox
  520. @Jack D

    I agree with your main point though – in general Islam has a (somewhat) positive view of Jesus as a lesser prophet (Mohamed being the greatest and final prophet) while Judaism does not recognize him as a prophet at all but as a sinner and trickster – a sort of Judean Uri Geller.

    Again, Christians have had as little patience for Islam as Jews have had for Christianity. It’s a survival strategy, the idea being to prevent adherents from being seduced by heresy.

  521. @Jonathan Mason

    Everyone knows that only Zoroastrians (or as the great Gygax, on one of his less creative days, dubbed them – magic-users) can use real magic.

  522. @Jack D

    C’mon Jack, if Uri Geller had been this successful you know y’all would have embraced him. You’re the people of Jacob, not Esau. There’s more going on there than that.

  523. @Jack D

    It never seemed right to me. Looked like a radio tower.

  524. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Jack D

    A contrarian take.

  525. @Jack D

    Thank you, Tdzak.

    The biggest challenge was to find a shofar with matching tone colors of your skin.

    No disputation about that one, bored identity strongly believes.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  526. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    I agree. Steel would be better than wood. As long as it looks the same from the street, who cares what the structural members are made of? Hardly anybody will ever see them anyway.

  527. @Johann Ricke

    It would be pretty ridiculous to view Christianity as a “jewish heresy” given that talmudic judaism (obviously what a modern person would call “the jewish religion”) is far predated by Christianity. And given that explicitly Christ-centered Christianity (that is Christianity post-Christ, some would argue that Moses and Abraham were of course Christians themselves, despite preceding Christ’s incarnation on earth) was created first and also far more centrally features the old testament as a source of moral doctrine, Christianity has a stronger claim of continuity with the “Judaism” of antiquity (that is, the Judaism of Moses and Jesus’ contemporaries).

  528. @Jack D

    the trend in Islamic countries is AWAY from modernization

    I think the deeper trend is definitely away from traditional Islam and that is precisely why you see more public symbols of devotion, often symbols and behaviors that weren’t even really “traditional”.

    Maybe a moderate form of Islam could have been reconciled with the conservative mores of pre-1960s America

    No. Traditional Muslims are more upset by women driving cars, having pre-marital sex and leading independent lives than they are by homosexuality. Not to mention the rampant alcoholism in the West, which was even worse in the 1950s America than now.

    For the most part, America was already a depraved and decadent society by the 1920s (by traditonal Christian/Muslim standards at any rate).

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  529. @Pericles

    Pericles asked me:

    Do you regularly tell him his so-called god doesn’t exist? You being an atheist and all.

    The neighbor is a “she.” Yeah, we’ve talked about it: I am, after all, not ashamed of being an atheist, though I don’t really care if other people think a God exists.

    She does not mind, though of course she disagrees with me: she believes in religious freedom. All of my neighbors do. This is America.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  530. @nebulafox

    nebulafox wrote to me:

    Ah, I just can’t take the SJWs all that seriously…Their oligarchic and media buddies are a different story… if we’re headed for a new Dark Ages, I’ll at least know who to blame when I’m busy preserving knowledge for a new Petrarch to pick up some day.

    Yeah, a lot of the street-soldier SJWs are rather pathetic psych cases. The media types are largely mercenary. And, the ruling elite will move on to some other scam when the SJW nonsense comes to be viewed by a younger generation as passe.

    nebulafox also said:

    Who knows, maybe I’ll become a libertarian like you. I’m gonna go as close to blank-slate as is possible and start afresh.

    Well, watch out for what I call “new-school” libertarians. Unfortunately, an awful lot of the most prominent of contemporary libertarians have come to hate traditional middle-class American values. They’re divided among themselves, ranging from SJWs to yuppie worshipers of high-tech to neo-medievalists. (!).

    Their only common factor is that they despise the old bourgeois values of (actual) tolerance, solid middle-class families, a life not centered on politics, etc. I.e., they do not really like actual core Americans.

    Very strange, given that the founding document of America is libertarian.

    So, I consider myself an “old-school” libertarian: Locke, Jefferson, Thoreau… all the way up to Murray Rothbard. I knew Rothbard, by the way, and while he is widely considered a leftist libertarian, he was not. His favorite music was Baroque and classical jazz. He loved old movies and the NBA. He thought women should be homemakers or career women as they wished.

    Rothbard wanted people to be free to live the sort of mundane, apolitical, unWoke lives that most human beings actually find satisfying — i.e., the sort of happiness that the Founders meant when they talked of the “pursuit of happiness.” In short, he was a true bourgeois American.

    But, strangely, many contemporary libertarians have plans for the human race — whether they are “space cadets” or “Woke” or neo-feudalists — that do not seem to have much to do with what actual people want for themselves.

    A very strange paradox.

    Personally, I sort of want to leave my fellow human beings alone (aside from arguing with some of them here on Sailer’s blog) to make of their lives what they wish.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  531. @Jack D

    Thank you, Tdzak.

    The biggest challenge was to find a shofar with matching tone colors of your skin.

    No disputation about that one, bored identity strongly believes.

  532. @PhysicistDave

    She does not mind, though of course she disagrees with me: she believes in religious freedom. All of my neighbors do. This is America.

    Bake that cake, PDave.

  533. Jack D says:
    @ThreeCranes

    Here’s a clue : 90% of the church fires in France start in churches that are under renovation. Once you introduce humans with their cigarettes, torches, power tools, etc. into a sterile space, all bets are off.

    The “forest” is what the French themselves called the timbers in the attic of Notre Dame. But it is true that the NY Times and I get our marching orders every day from the Elders of Zion. For some reason, the Elders have decided NOT to blame this one on the Muslims. It doesn’t make any sense to me since Muslims don’t really like the Elders, but I am in no position to question my daily orders from the Elders.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  534. @Jack D

    “marching orders from the Elders of Zion.

    More like Alison Wier’s How Israel and its partisans work to censor the Internet–of which your reductio ad absurdum is a shining example.

  535. @JMcG

    Thanks for your compliments – this is a truly pleasant surprise, I must say.
    I’ve been to the East Coast once – NYC and then the Carolinas – the Blue Ridge Mountains, Cape Hatteras (my tent was severely threatened in a storm in late June, my skin turned red while hitchhiking) – but except for that – and those big fish that turned up near me I wasn’t so sure about while swimming in the Ocean, everything was fine – the waves were high at times, but I liked that.
    Ahh – that’s a few decades ago now. I told my wife about your kind response, she said, if you fly, take me with you…(but I haven’t flown in decades either! – and my wife never in her whole life – imagine that – and she doesn’t even fear flying).

  536. Jack D says:
    @bored identity

    Bored, I’m so white that the Pillsbury Doughboy looks like a Mexican when he stands next to me.

    • Replies: @bored identity
  537. @Peter Akuleyev

    Peter Akuleyev wrote:

    For the most part, America was already a depraved and decadent society by the 1920s (by traditonal Christian/Muslim standards at any rate)

    Well… yes and no.

    You need to distinguish between the elite in any society vs. the mass of ordinary people, and you need to distinguish between what human beings aspire to vs. the human frailties they actually exhibit in real life.

    I’m not old enough to remember the 1920s, of course, but I know a great deal of my own family’s history back then as well as knowing about the period from extensive reading.

    The people back then who considered themselves culturally cutting-edge (the phrase is the “smart set,” the actual name of a contemporary magazine aimed at these people– sounds pretty corny now!) were indeed consciously violating traditional norms. Pretty tame by our standards today (e.g., transgender was not really big), but they did intend to épater la bourgeoisie.

    But that wasn’t most Americans. I know of people in that generation in my family who cheated on a spouse or who got divorced — but they were not doing it to be edgy; they just suffered from personal or moral frailties. And, I know of other branches of my family back then for whom every indication is that they were solid, respectable, upstanding members of a middle-class society that publicly embraced their values — family-oriented, church-going, financially responsible, and all the rest.

    What has indeed happened in the last century is that the celebration of decadence and dissolute living has moved from the upper class and Bohemian fringes down to middle and lower classes (and also from Europe to America).

    Interestingly, the reverse process seems to have happened in the early Victorian Age: the upper-middle class basically decided to civilize society and largely succeeded, for a couple generations.

    Things can change pretty fast culturally: it would not surprise me if most of us here live to see a neo-Victorianism in our lifetimes (ah, Queesn Victoria — where are you now that we need you?).

    Human history really is not one uni-linear downward slide into decadence: if it were, we would all have devolved into worms by now.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Jack D
  538. Jack D says:
    @PhysicistDave

    Evolution, both social and biological, tends to be “punctuated” – that is, it not a nice smooth curve up and down, but rather things decline to some low point and then BANG something big happens that completely shakes things up. In the case of human societies, what tends to happen is that you get invaded and the new invaders impose their own social system which is quite different from the existing social system. These invasions happen when the existing population has gone soft and is no longer willing or able to stand up and fight off the invaders. The invaders might have even come peacefully in the beginning (or even been imported as slaves) but eventually they overwhelm their masters by sheer numbers if nothing else. The existing population (especially the males) may or may not survive this transition. Females are either not given the choice or, as hypergamous creatures, are eager to willingly join up with the new dominant group – I’m dating this new Conquistador and he’s so handsome with his sword – I’ll bet our babies will be really tall. Does any of this sound like what is going on in our society now?

  539. @Father O'Hara

    No, but in the past I had told them that the Quran could not be perfect because it was written by Mohammed, who is human, and thus flawed and imperfect. They didn’t care for that too much.

    In this instance, I had to grin and bear it. I was in the middle of a local military base in a Muslim country.

  540. @JMcG

    bored identity strongly believes that this forum desperately depends on Jack D’s two cents on any given topic:

  541. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    >(even putting aside the Saudis – the Wahhabi were always crazy but in the past harmless because they didn’t have 2 shekels to rub together – oil changed that big time)

    The weird, malignant family firm known as Saudi Arabia elicits deeply mixed feelings within the Islamic World. They have the religious sites, of course, so people who still take the religion seriously pre-Enlightenment style (aka-most run of the mill Muslims in the Islamic World) have no choice but to travel there and show proper respect. They also fund a whole range of charitable activities in poorer Islamic countries, who know that the ultimate intent is to raise new human resources for Saudi jihadi adventures, but aren’t in an economic position to refuse it. But, particularly on the subcontinent and in Indonesia, the locals tend to deeply resent how the Saudis abuse, rape, and even kill the laborers they send. This even extends to the better educated: my old Pakistani roommate’s brother worked for over a decade in Saudi Arabia as an engineer. He was invariably treated at best like a servant, despite the fact that he was always brighter than the Saudis, who were far too lazy to do the work themselves. Also, the boozing and whoring of the Saudi princes is pretty common knowledge.

    (The Saudis have no choice but to be more respectful to whites and East Asians, infidel status aside, yet I’d be surprised if they didn’t view us with racial contempt as well. Saudi Arabia is the ultimate showcase of what happens when you give a tribal, pre-modern society tons of money with little work or any other advancement. The country still had legal slavery not that long ago.)

    >Now even places like Turkey and Indonesia that always had rather lite versions of Islam are now swinging toward being devout.

    You are correct-hijabs were rare in Malaysia and Indonesia before 1979, for example. But Turkey and Indonesia were probably never as secular as they seemed to be, especially outside of the capital. What is true all over, however, is that Islam has gotten more “orthodox” with the advent of globalization and rising living standards. Places that had their own local brands of Islam have been leaning more and more to a mainstream, globalized version. Turkey, of course, had the legacy of Kemalism utterly dominating the country politically throughout the 20th Century, but I’ll leave more detailed commentary to someone more familiar with that country.

    (I wish my father was here, he spent a lot of time stationed there before I was born and could probably talk about it relatively intelligently. One Turkish dude I did meet referred to all the Turks in Germany-who invariably supported Erdogan, coming from the Anatolian heartland-disparigingly as “the dark Turks”. Birth rates in Turkey seem particularly instructive: in the western parts of the country, it is below replacement level, on par with Europe, whereas toward the aforementioned Anatolian heartland, you are looking at Middle Eastern levels of fertility.)

    In Indonesia’s case… this was because Suharto quite literally enforcing secularism at the butt of a gun when he was in power. Suharto spent much of the 1950s putting down Islamist-inspired separatist movements, which in conjunction with his background (Javanese declassed priyayi + Japanese army training) led to a predictable deep dislike for Islamism, both on ideological and political grounds. Anybody talking about replacing Jakarta’s corrupt rule with shari’ah in Aceh during the New Order years was thrown in jail or just disappeared. Most of the peasants were not about to complain during the course of the New Order thanks mostly to the massive rise in living standards and quality of life, but also because they had deep local traditions in the kampungs which the government couldn’t have cared less about-and to an extent, shared in. Who cared what the peasants thought, anyhow, as long as they paid their taxes and kept out of trouble?

    But the new middle class that came into being as a result of the economic growth, in addition to with having no patience for Suharto’s “sultan” style of rule that their parents took for granted as natural, also was looking for a new identity of their own. They had moved to the cities: that meant all the syncretic Javanese traditions were gone from their lives. That meant they were looking for something new… and the wave of conservatism that spread throughout the Islamic World in the 1980s conjoined with the beginnings of globalization. Which meant that a place like Indonesia, previously rather disconnected from the Middle East, got tapped into it. Previous waves of Islamism in Indonesia, like Darul Islam, inevitably had a strongly local flavor to them. Nowadays, it is a more ostentatiously “mainstream” Islam that is becoming popular.

    So, an interesting paradox: democracy, globalization, and relative wealth has led to a more orthodox form of Islam rather than irreligion. It’s almost as if some places aren’t the West and inexorably marching to the Crystal Palace, y’know?

    > Maybe a moderate form of Islam could have been reconciled with the conservative mores of pre-1960s America (although Qutb was shocked even by what he saw in the ’40s in conservative Greeley, Colorado) but the only thing it can do with modern Globohomo, trans loving America is to reject it utterly and completely.

    Yes and no. If you go on a deeper level, you’ll notice that the Islamic World has been able to push a lot of unwanted Western cultural exports underground in a way that would be unfathomable to your average American 20-something. But it has been unable to get rid of them. Premartial sex is way more common in the Islamic World than it used to be. Consumerism is rampant in cultures obeying a religion that is quite explicit about its distaste for it. Alcohol is way more accessible, as is porn and modern music. Women are present in the workforce, even if they are wearing hijabs. And it’s not at all uncommon to see the same kind of loudly pious types in Parisian ghettos who would be attracted to ISIS to be addicted to porn and vapid American rap music.

    Yet, yet, yet… Islam manages to preserve and even strengthen some very anachronistic elements. Good luck if you are a Muslim woman who wants to marry a non-Muslim guy, for starters. Parents and kin and honor remain important. Atheists and agnostics will remain mostly closeted-and even people who are secularists or privately reject the religion will accept the common narrative about their faith in a relatively naive manner that you don’t see outside of conservative parts of the US, let alone Europe.

    Above all: people are individuals. Some do what it takes to conform to more stringent societal norms and lead double lives behind it. Others get more genuinely pious. I’m pretty sure that in ancient Byzantium, too, you had people who went to church every day of the week and some who rarely went at all: yet you probably never saw atheists in the modern sense of the word.

    Is the conservative turn partly meant to countermand and fight against this as much as possible to preserve the religion against a similar fate that befell Christianity in the West? Possibly. They are simultaneously attracted to modernity and repelled by it. Even the Islamists are advocates of adopting Western technology while rejecting all the social and sexual stuff. It is really quite fascinating to watch.

  542. @Jack D

    bored identity strongly believes that Inner Melanin Index should be always guesstimated by the eye of the beholder.

    Judged by the latest round of Jack D’s rubbing against all those rough comments,
    it seems that his regular shedding season is coming rather earlier than expected.

    The empirical evidence proves that too often behind doughish puffiness and
    polished blue eyes lingers an epic epigenetic appetite for the perpetual restitution of histrionic grievances – and that will turn a seemingly ordinary person into a raging black toro, or a vengeful red heifer:

    Now, don’t be afraid and grab that mirror, Tdzak.

  543. nebulafox says:
    @PiltdownMan

    7th Century Arabia was messily sectarian. In a place with no great history of literacy or organized statehood, the lines between different religious sects were blurrier than in neighboring Rome or Persia. You could find plenty of sects that you would have found in the old days of Christianity, back when it was still bubbling and forming, out of sight and touch of Imperial agents looking to enforce orthodoxy.

    Some local Christians believed in a notion of a female Holy Spirit, or other things that would have put them quite beyond the pale for the Prophet. But others believed in a unitarian vision of God, with a mortal Jesus appointed by God as a prophet who would come again to judge the dead, that would have been quite acceptable to the new community awaiting the End Days in the eminently apocalyptic environment of the early 7th century Near East. (Huge, terrible wars. The bubonic plague. Economic depression. Environmental catastrophe and famine. Seriously: these were *bad* times. It’s easy to see why the Qu’ran is so apocalyptic. Only toward the end-which is paradoxically the first surahs-does this fade and Muhammad start to think of a wholly new sort of new faith.)

    Of course, the big difference between Christianity and Islam was that Christianity had 300 years to calcify before it took power. It became an imperial religion. Islam got an empire almost right off the bat. It was born one. The doctrines of Islam were shaped according to this reality, which necessitated differentiating itself from the conquered peoples, and above all from the empire that they were trying to conquer by the late 600s.

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