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From The Atlantic:

When Will the Gender Gap in Science Disappear?

A new study estimates that it will take 16 years for women and men to publish papers in equal numbers. For physics, it will take 258.

ED YONG 2:00 PM ET SCIENCE

That’s how long it will take before the number of women on scientific papers is equal to the number of men.

Luke Holman from the University of Melbourne got that estimate by working out the number of female and male authors on almost 10 million academic papers, published over the last 15 years. With help from Melbourne colleagues Cindy Hauser and Devi Stuart-Fox, he then used the data to estimate the size of the well-documented gender gap in science, and more importantly, how long it might take to close.

At the current rate of change, women will catch up to men in 16 years—but that overall estimate masks a huge amount of variation. For example, out of the 115 disciplines represented in the data, women authors outnumber men in just a handful (including nursing and midwifery) and publish at the same rate in just 23 (including psychology, nutrition, and public health).

In 87 of the 115 disciplines, women are still significantly outnumbered by men. Some of these, including anthropology, microbiology, and medical genetics, will reach parity within the next decade.

Life scientists (CRISPR)

But others, like physics, mathematics, and computer science, not only have the highest male biases, with women being outnumbered by a factor of six, but also the slowest rates of improvement. In physics, the gender gap might take 258 years to fully close. If nothing changes, no living physicist or mathematician will see parity within their lifetime—or their grandchildren’s.

Death scientist

Why must there be equal numbers of male and female physicists? Because Mother Nature refuses to reveal her secrets to men. As George Orwell explained:

Feminist theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as “the truth” exists. There is, for instance, no such thing as “Science”. There is only “Male Science,” “Female Science,” etc. The implied objective of this line of thought is a dream world in which Hillary, or the Gender Studies department, controls not only the future but the past. If Hillary says of such and such an event, “It never happened” — well, it never happened. If she says that two and two are five — well two and two are five. This prospect reassures me much more than CNN and NPR together — and after our experiences of the last few years that is not such a frivolous statement.

 
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  1. Men should leave the death sciences and start having as many babies as women do. How many years will that take? Parity is very important. Can they calculate how long that will take?

    • Agree: TheBoom, Ben tillman
    • LOL: Mishra, Twinkie
    • Troll: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Parity is very important.
     
    As any satirist will tell you, some things are beyond parity.
    , @Autochthon
    Damnit. I meant only to write "well played" with an "LOL" but this shitty phone was obviously designed by and for the tiny fingers of a rare, female scientist of death....
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II
    Agree.
  2. Gender bias would predict that the more subjective sciences, such as anthropology or psychology would allow for more subterfuge than objective sciences duch as mathematics or physics. Flaws in journals of math are more likely to be immediately exposed.
    Of course, we find the opposite the case. The more politicized, the fuzzier or more subjective the science, the more likely it is to tilt female.
    Think of it this way, which would be easier to impersonate: a math professor or a sociology professor?
    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective and the top grandmasters are a virtually all male.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective ...
     
    Chess rating are even MORE objective, because they are simply obtained from results of official match games. I.E., if you beat a guy with a higher rating, yours will go up and his will go down, all other things equal.

    There's a lot of fudging with the authorship of journal articles, even in the hard sciences, though I admit you can't fake the paper itself for too long. It goes like "Remember we lent you that data acquisition computer for your testing for a week. You're gonna put me and my grad student on there, right? We'll put you on our theoretical paper coming out since you reminded us of that book that had the solution to our differential equation in it." You end up with 12 co-authors, most of them with unreadable Chinese or Indian names, at that.
    , @Anonymous
    One time Noam Chomsky was responding to someone asking about him essentially being jumped at a professional conference, an experience that greatly distressed his collaborator, Morris Halle.


    He said something like, "Oh, the linguists and anthropologists setting up the conference to ambush me? No, I didn't mind...I'd had training in logic, mathematics, etc., so I knew what an argument was; I couldn't be intimidated just because 500 people said so."

    , @Ben tillman
    Good points. You are right.
    , @Almost Missouri
    IOW, the less science-y the "science" is, the more female it is.
    , @Pat Boyle
    An even more apt example would be Contract Bridge. Most Chess players are men but most Bridge players are women. Yet except for Helen Sobel there has never been a really formidable female Bridge player.

    Bridge was created (by Eli Culbertson I think) with language that is full of sexual double entendres .

  3. Ed Foo Yong should calculate when the race gap will end in sports.

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    And the sex gap. But yes Your point is well taken.
    , @Forbes
    Thirty years ago when running (and jogging) was all the rage, the then SJWs in the sports commentary world were projecting when women would finally (finally, finally) overtake men in the marathon road race.

    In the then near-recent past, women had improved the world record time in the event by a dozen minutes, while men's time had only improved by a couple minutes.

    So the geniuses extrapolated the trend in improving times and declared that women would overtake men in about two decades.
  4. “That’s how long it will take before the number of women on scientific papers is equal to the number of men.”

    Do ” women on scientific papers” contain useful information?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Do ” women on scientific papers” contain useful information?
     
    Like caged birds leave on newspapers of record?
    , @Paleo Liberal
    Only if the women are in binders.
  5. And how many years will it take for a woman to author a study on when the gender gap in science will disappear? Thank God for iSteve reading this Scheisse and summarizing it with a picture and quote from Harvard & Oxford graduate Robert Oppenheimer. I wonder when the Chosen glitterati from The New York Times and Washington Post will advocate eliminating Oppenheimer from history like Robert E. Lee.

  6. @Buzz Mohawk
    Men should leave the death sciences and start having as many babies as women do. How many years will that take? Parity is very important. Can they calculate how long that will take?

    Parity is very important.

    As any satirist will tell you, some things are beyond parity.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Well played. All hail Caesar!
  7. What is the big need for this gap to be closed? To add to what Mr. Mohawk said regarding having babies, an impossibility, I don’t hear much about closing the gap in strippers and prostitutes which also pay pretty damn well. In fact, on an after-tax and hourly basis, these two professions offer compensation that is higher than any one of the people publishing those papers, and there’s ZERO committee work. Plus, you don’t have to sweat out tenure …. just, well, STDs and all.

    In physics, the gender gap might take 258 years to fully close…

    See, now that’s why you all are still stuck in Sociology and have your papers rejected. You don’t understand precision and accuracy. What is the tolerance or error-range on this 258 year value your calculations came up with? Do you really know +/- 1/2 year on this? Oh, I guess why you stuck that “might” in there. Real professional, Ed!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    As repulsive as emotionally healthy women would find prostitution, it is a more honest occupation than being a liberal soft-sciences professor. As well as being less destructive to society.
    , @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    What is the big need for this gap to be closed?
     
    Asking the rhetorical question as is common on centrist, right-side and right-wing response / reaction to this sort of thing not only fails to stop it, it makes it stronger.

    I really don't understand why that isn't sinking in with the right.

    People (not everyone - I mean "people" as in a democratic threshold necessary to move politics) do not respond to good or right argumentation or fairness - they respond to power.

    When you demonstrate that you can do something irrational and still not be stopped - that is a demonstration of power. People, in turn, follow the side that has demonstrated power because no one wants to be on the business end of the bat.

    If you cannot or will not form alliances of sufficient quantity to create the political will to resist irrationality, then you have to take different approaches. Mishra in comment #25 has the right idea:


    Why all this sturm und drang? Simply prohibit males from publishing for the next 300 years or so, to even things out. Prohibit white people, too. Actually, prohibit white males from accomplishing anything at all.
     
    ...literally: run candidates - right wing candidates - to make it worse. Hit the left from the left. Be entirely plain what you're doing, "look, this is where you want us to go. Why wait? Let's go there right now."

    Then the left either has to help and sow the seeds of its own destruction by going there before the frog has boiled, or reverse course and pivot back to rationality.

  8. @Buzz Mohawk
    Men should leave the death sciences and start having as many babies as women do. How many years will that take? Parity is very important. Can they calculate how long that will take?

    Damnit. I meant only to write “well played” with an “LOL” but this shitty phone was obviously designed by and for the tiny fingers of a rare, female scientist of death….

    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    As someone who still misses his BlackBerry, I fully understand.
    , @Twinkie

    Damnit. I meant only to write “well played” with an “LOL” but this shitty phone was obviously designed by and for the tiny fingers of a rare, female scientist of death….
     
    For a moment there, I thought, "What is wrong with this guy? It's meant to be satirical. I thought he had some sense of humor."
  9. @Zpaladin
    Gender bias would predict that the more subjective sciences, such as anthropology or psychology would allow for more subterfuge than objective sciences duch as mathematics or physics. Flaws in journals of math are more likely to be immediately exposed.
    Of course, we find the opposite the case. The more politicized, the fuzzier or more subjective the science, the more likely it is to tilt female.
    Think of it this way, which would be easier to impersonate: a math professor or a sociology professor?
    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective and the top grandmasters are a virtually all male.

    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective …

    Chess rating are even MORE objective, because they are simply obtained from results of official match games. I.E., if you beat a guy with a higher rating, yours will go up and his will go down, all other things equal.

    There’s a lot of fudging with the authorship of journal articles, even in the hard sciences, though I admit you can’t fake the paper itself for too long. It goes like “Remember we lent you that data acquisition computer for your testing for a week. You’re gonna put me and my grad student on there, right? We’ll put you on our theoretical paper coming out since you reminded us of that book that had the solution to our differential equation in it.” You end up with 12 co-authors, most of them with unreadable Chinese or Indian names, at that.

    • Agree: Autochthon
  10. Anonymous[140] • Disclaimer says:
    @Zpaladin
    Gender bias would predict that the more subjective sciences, such as anthropology or psychology would allow for more subterfuge than objective sciences duch as mathematics or physics. Flaws in journals of math are more likely to be immediately exposed.
    Of course, we find the opposite the case. The more politicized, the fuzzier or more subjective the science, the more likely it is to tilt female.
    Think of it this way, which would be easier to impersonate: a math professor or a sociology professor?
    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective and the top grandmasters are a virtually all male.

    One time Noam Chomsky was responding to someone asking about him essentially being jumped at a professional conference, an experience that greatly distressed his collaborator, Morris Halle.

    He said something like, “Oh, the linguists and anthropologists setting up the conference to ambush me? No, I didn’t mind…I’d had training in logic, mathematics, etc., so I knew what an argument was; I couldn’t be intimidated just because 500 people said so.”

  11. I first read that headline as “death sentences”. Who’d want parity in that?

    But it’s always about equality of the good things. If women come a long way, baby, and catch up to men in tobacco use, well, we have a train wreck, not a cause for celebration.

    It’s a rare bird indeed who expects women to embrace obligations along with rights, e.g., Ruth Bader Ginsburg. That’s why it’s called “women’s liberation“.

    • Replies: @gunner29

    It’s a rare bird indeed who expects women to embrace obligations along with rights, e.g., Ruth Bader Ginsburg. That’s why it’s called “women’s liberation“.
     
    What's been obvious over the last 50 years is womyn wanting to retain all the rights and privileges womyn have traditionally had, plus acquire all the rights and privileges men have traditionally had, but none of the obligations or responsibilities of either gender....that is called womyn's libearation...
  12. @newrouter
    "That’s how long it will take before the number of women on scientific papers is equal to the number of men."

    Do " women on scientific papers" contain useful information?

    Do ” women on scientific papers” contain useful information?

    Like caged birds leave on newspapers of record?

  13. @newrouter
    "That’s how long it will take before the number of women on scientific papers is equal to the number of men."

    Do " women on scientific papers" contain useful information?

    Only if the women are in binders.

  14. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:

    With help from Melbourne colleagues Cindy Hauser and Devi Stuart-Fox, he then used the data to estimate the size of the well-documented gender gap …

    What better person to ask for unbiased expert input than Dr. Devi? Devi maintains a very pretty personal website dedicated to:

    “Animal colouration and evolutionary ecology of lizards”

    https://devistuartfox.com/

    Devi herself switched from nerd work analyzing molecules in the lab to something more LIVELY involving COLORS and SEX:

    I began my research career with projects on phylogeography and molecular systematics of lizards under the supervision of Craig Moritz, but quickly discovered that I wanted to know what my study animals did. My PhD on natural and sexual selection colour patterns in a group of dragon lizards therefore incorporated a strong behavioural element.

    https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/display/person155120

  15. So who is responsible for George Orwell’s quote? Mark Twain? Will Rogers? Yogi Berra?

    It’s amazing that a biologist would waste research time on gendering names from papers. It must have been a bitch, especially considering that many researchers use initials on papers. This might be a case of the recent problem of researchers gaming the Scopus citations ranking prior to a tenure decision by publishing a click-baity paper.

  16. @Reg Cæsar
    I first read that headline as "death sentences". Who'd want parity in that?

    But it's always about equality of the good things. If women come a long way, baby, and catch up to men in tobacco use, well, we have a train wreck, not a cause for celebration.

    It's a rare bird indeed who expects women to embrace obligations along with rights, e.g., Ruth Bader Ginsburg. That's why it's called "women's liberation".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw3xH2jO9EE

    It’s a rare bird indeed who expects women to embrace obligations along with rights, e.g., Ruth Bader Ginsburg. That’s why it’s called “women’s liberation“.

    What’s been obvious over the last 50 years is womyn wanting to retain all the rights and privileges womyn have traditionally had, plus acquire all the rights and privileges men have traditionally had, but none of the obligations or responsibilities of either gender….that is called womyn’s libearation…

  17. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Ed Foo Yong

    Some dorktor

    So, we got two Asian dorks making a fuss about womenfolk and Negrofolk.

    Why? Maybe having no iconic value of their own as Asian males, they feel a need to attach themselves to Big Issue problems like ‘gender gap’ or ‘racism’.

  18. One of the most interesting HBD facts is how racial cognitive differences kind of mirror sex differences in cognitive profiles, something which Steve has discussed before.

    I didn’t get to discuss that in my previous article on the math/verbal split, but obviously the fact that East Asians tend to excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to Europeans mirrors the way that males excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to women.

    I can’t seem to find it, but I think Richard Lynn published some study a while back showing that East Asian versus European college major profiles across different subject areas mirrored that of male versus female choice of college majors.

    China’s modern day STEM rise is clearly and disproportionately in the quantitative physical sciences and engineering and skews away from life sciences.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    This is true but there's a further dimension: we can look at the innovativeness of those whites who do go into STEM, and we can continue to compare males and females within life sciences, and we can look at generations. There are a lot of white males of a particular generation I would be happy to consign to Mongolian seraglios. Nevertheless something tells me that differences will still be apparent, for those interested in differences.
    , @AnotherDad

    I didn’t get to discuss that in my previous article on the math/verbal split, but obviously the fact that East Asians tend to excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to Europeans mirrors the way that males excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to women.
     
    Actually, i'd say the really interesting HBD thing is that the cognitive profile and personality profile don't trend the same way.

    Relative to whites the East Asian cognitive profile is more math/spatial--a male trait--
    while the personality profile is more cooperative--a female trait.



    As I commented, while the basic thesis of you article seems to me--both obvious and--correct, i.e. "Asians good at math" and this helps Asians push ahead in the STEM fields, your claims that it's been the most important factor is wrong.

    East Asia's dramatic rise in terms of HBD factors, the ranking is
    1) IQ (g) -- i.e. general intelligence

    2) Personality profile--high conscientiousness, high cooperation, low time preference--ideal of organizing industrial production. I.e. Asian grinding. Asians on average can work harder and longer without complaint. A good bit of the Asian rise has been fueled by packing Asian women into factories and having them work long hours at a relatively high level of quality. (Something the people in pretty much all other 3rd world nations were--and still are--completely unable to do.)

    3) Finally, the math/verbal split. Being able to grab hold of Western technology, understand it and begin to make their own advances.

    #3 seems more likely to become more and more salient moving forward--as it has for Japan already--as East Asia pushes ahead of the West. But again, even in the future, the biggest factor not going to be this, but the West committing suicide through diversity.
  19. When Oppenheimer said “Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds” after the Trinity Test, he probably meant it in a much more figurative sense. Given his knowledge of the Sanskrit writings from which he took the line, a more accurate meaning would be something along the lines of “I now have a huge responsibility, and must carry it out wisely.”

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Michael Clayton quotes often apply in the iSteve world. Recall Tilda Swinton (Crowder) and George Clooney (title role) in a climactic scene.

    Karen Crowder: You don't want the money?
    Michael Clayton: Keep the money. You'll need it.
    Don Jefferies: Is this fellow bothering you?
    Michael Clayton: Am I bothering you?
    Don Jefferies: Karen, I've got a board waiting in there. What the hell's going on? Who are you?
    Michael Clayton: I'm Shiva, the God of death.
    , @middle aged vet . . .
    prosa123 - I hope you are right. That being said, all of us have the capability of making other people's - maybe not many, but at least some - lives much much better, and sometimes many of us just do not bother. The whole Sanskrit shtick that we apply to nuclear physicists is pretty dramatic but we all live dramatic lives, when you think about it, even very lazy people are dramatically failures from the point of view of those poor souls who need the help of lazy people, who do not want them to be so very very lazy, who want them to help out just a little bit more, but who live lives of despair because the lazy people who could help them will not help them.

    I am not gonna disagree with Yan Shen here but, Well, the money in 2018 is on Chinese life sciences and the IPOs associated with those Chinese "life sciences"...

    Lack of moral boundaries when it comes to life science stuff is gonna be to the future what investing in IBM was to the future back when the most famous Chinese person in America was poor little Garry Trudeau's heartless and relentless caricature of a short stereotyped Chinese woman, wearing the same unflattering ink-black clothes every day, making comments every day that showed how servilely in love she was with an American man (BD I think the "great wit" Trudeau called him, or maybe it was the Somerset Maugham caricature who ran around pretending to be a journalist - who knows, who can follow the trails of this trash?). Heartless, like I said.

    Yan Shen, good luck in the future.

    All that being said, Feynman's memoirs are completely tone-deaf when he talks about his work for the military. He was extremely lucky he was not born in the future Prosperity Zone or in one of the Kaiser's territories, he would not have made it out of the 1940s alive. Nice guy, and funny, and a better person than most of us, but not the sort of person one wants in a son-in-law. Sorry, but that is true.

    , @bartok

    a more accurate meaning would be something along the lines of “I now have a huge responsibility, and must carry it out wisely.”
     
    Got any evidence of that?
    The plain meaning is a combination of "I am a golden god" and "The horror, the horror."
  20. I fear it’ll be millennia before the gender YAP closes.

  21. @Zpaladin
    Gender bias would predict that the more subjective sciences, such as anthropology or psychology would allow for more subterfuge than objective sciences duch as mathematics or physics. Flaws in journals of math are more likely to be immediately exposed.
    Of course, we find the opposite the case. The more politicized, the fuzzier or more subjective the science, the more likely it is to tilt female.
    Think of it this way, which would be easier to impersonate: a math professor or a sociology professor?
    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective and the top grandmasters are a virtually all male.

    Good points. You are right.

  22. @Anon
    Ed Foo Yong should calculate when the race gap will end in sports.

    And the sex gap. But yes Your point is well taken.

  23. @Autochthon
    Damnit. I meant only to write "well played" with an "LOL" but this shitty phone was obviously designed by and for the tiny fingers of a rare, female scientist of death....

    As someone who still misses his BlackBerry, I fully understand.

  24. @Buzz Mohawk
    Men should leave the death sciences and start having as many babies as women do. How many years will that take? Parity is very important. Can they calculate how long that will take?

    Agree.

  25. Why all this sturm und drang? Simply prohibit males from publishing for the next 300 years or so, to even things out. Prohibit white people, too. Actually, prohibit white males from accomplishing anything at all. Sounds like a plan amirite? Fair’s fair! What could possibly go wrong?

  26. Anonymous[295] • Disclaimer says:

    Biology will probably go the other direction as it is increasingly dominated by quant methods.

  27. @prosa123
    When Oppenheimer said "Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds" after the Trinity Test, he probably meant it in a much more figurative sense. Given his knowledge of the Sanskrit writings from which he took the line, a more accurate meaning would be something along the lines of "I now have a huge responsibility, and must carry it out wisely."

    Michael Clayton quotes often apply in the iSteve world. Recall Tilda Swinton (Crowder) and George Clooney (title role) in a climactic scene.

    Karen Crowder: You don’t want the money?
    Michael Clayton: Keep the money. You’ll need it.
    Don Jefferies: Is this fellow bothering you?
    Michael Clayton: Am I bothering you?
    Don Jefferies: Karen, I’ve got a board waiting in there. What the hell’s going on? Who are you?
    Michael Clayton: I’m Shiva, the God of death.

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    I did not expect to like that movie.

    By the end I loved it.
  28. @Zpaladin
    Gender bias would predict that the more subjective sciences, such as anthropology or psychology would allow for more subterfuge than objective sciences duch as mathematics or physics. Flaws in journals of math are more likely to be immediately exposed.
    Of course, we find the opposite the case. The more politicized, the fuzzier or more subjective the science, the more likely it is to tilt female.
    Think of it this way, which would be easier to impersonate: a math professor or a sociology professor?
    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective and the top grandmasters are a virtually all male.

    IOW, the less science-y the “science” is, the more female it is.

  29. @prosa123
    When Oppenheimer said "Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds" after the Trinity Test, he probably meant it in a much more figurative sense. Given his knowledge of the Sanskrit writings from which he took the line, a more accurate meaning would be something along the lines of "I now have a huge responsibility, and must carry it out wisely."

    prosa123 – I hope you are right. That being said, all of us have the capability of making other people’s – maybe not many, but at least some – lives much much better, and sometimes many of us just do not bother. The whole Sanskrit shtick that we apply to nuclear physicists is pretty dramatic but we all live dramatic lives, when you think about it, even very lazy people are dramatically failures from the point of view of those poor souls who need the help of lazy people, who do not want them to be so very very lazy, who want them to help out just a little bit more, but who live lives of despair because the lazy people who could help them will not help them.

    I am not gonna disagree with Yan Shen here but, Well, the money in 2018 is on Chinese life sciences and the IPOs associated with those Chinese “life sciences”…

    Lack of moral boundaries when it comes to life science stuff is gonna be to the future what investing in IBM was to the future back when the most famous Chinese person in America was poor little Garry Trudeau’s heartless and relentless caricature of a short stereotyped Chinese woman, wearing the same unflattering ink-black clothes every day, making comments every day that showed how servilely in love she was with an American man (BD I think the “great wit” Trudeau called him, or maybe it was the Somerset Maugham caricature who ran around pretending to be a journalist – who knows, who can follow the trails of this trash?). Heartless, like I said.

    Yan Shen, good luck in the future.

    All that being said, Feynman’s memoirs are completely tone-deaf when he talks about his work for the military. He was extremely lucky he was not born in the future Prosperity Zone or in one of the Kaiser’s territories, he would not have made it out of the 1940s alive. Nice guy, and funny, and a better person than most of us, but not the sort of person one wants in a son-in-law. Sorry, but that is true.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    That was Duke. BD was Mike Doonesbury's jock roomate in college at the very start of the strip, when Trudeau himself was in college, who later went to Vietnam and befriended a vertically challenged mother-venerating freedom fighter in pyjamas. Duke was Hunter S. Thompson and his vaguely Vietnamese secretary/girlfriend/Jeeves/muse was supposed to represent Thompson's secretary/girlfriend/Jeeves/muse of the late seventies and early eighties, who was -- dig this -- Palestinian (the same chick was responsible for the Terry Gilliam movie reviving interest in Thompson). Trudeau, who has been so articulate lately about how it is neither funny nor free speech to "punch down," and about afflicting the comfortable, found a Palestinian character too difficult to write, so he went with vaguely South East Asian.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    She wasn't that servile. Early storylines had her deliberately mistranslating everything Uncle Duke actually said so he wouldn't offend the audience. The Jeeves comparison is pretty close to the mark: she was constantly managing the situation to save Duke, who never had a clue.
    , @Anon
    I was just thinking about that Duke/Chinawoman bit yesterday! For some reason, at the time, the bit where Duke has some sort of stomach attack at a state dinner (like GHW Bush) and shouts, as he slumps under the table, "You poisoned me with rancid chick chow!" seemed hysterically funny, so much so that I recall it even to this day. But it occurred to me that the Holy Trudeau could never get away with that today.
  30. In physics, the gender gap might take 258 years to fully close…
    Luke Holman from the University of Melbourne got that estimate…

    If that journal had rejected Luke Holman’s silly paper in favor of a paper — almost any paper — by a woman, the world would be no worse off and we’d be a bit closer to gender parity.

    This nonsense reminds me of forecasts of when women’s track world records would converge with men’s.

  31. Women can play all they want in the life sciences and humanities, but there has to a male-only space in these disciplines.

    It may be the case that women on the balance have higher verbal skills (although the SAT seems to suggest otherwise), but that doesn’t matter given their deficiencies in other areas, especially objectivity.

    There are lots of smart women out there, but they’re often the biggest offenders in academia, and lots of other areas, too. A woman’s higher IQ just makes her a more formidable opponent of reason, which is an enormous drain on one’s time and mental health.

    As sympathetic as I am (at times) to bright women, I actually grew up with them and live with them to this day, and it is no bed of roses let me tell you. Sometimes, guys just need a break to think about things. This is how material progress occurs. Without male-only spaces this will not happen.

    Women can rail against “the patriarchy” all they want, but its existence only proves that men need safe spaces, too. The destruction of these male organizations and societies goes a long way to explain the precipitous decline in civil society and male achievement.

    Charles Murray should explore this angle, but he prefers to pile onto hard-pressed men and praise the great achievements of the women who live in the mediocre, non-productive communities they create and prefer when given the whip hand over the local men.

  32. What if women just aren’t terribly interested?

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Women, or rather at least one woman whose name I refuse to mention in this thread, dominate(s) the field of obsessing over other people's private lives...
    , @Anonymous

    What if women just aren’t terribly interested?
     
    Bingo. What they are really saying is that women who have the 'necessities' (IQ, future time preference, capacity for long disciplined work) must be kept out of the occupational tracks they prefer and made to go into ones that do not interest them or to which they are temperamentally unsuited, because diversity statistics.

    Most women do not want to be in "Traditionally Male Occupations" not because they are traditionally male but because they involve aspects they find unpleasant or because they are not fascinating to them, or do not give them much reward.

    In electronic manufacturing, the assembly side of the house was traditionally all female and the techs, engineers, and financial people all male. We now have women in those positions at a much greater rate than was traditional, but they are different women than the assemblers. Assembleresses, rework operators, solder inspectors, et al are working class background white women, Asian first and second gen immigrants, a few mestizas. Rarely blacks. Women engineers are even more likely than their male counterparts to come from white collar or professional families. Female bench techs were probably Navy ETs or they had a dad that was very heavily into ham radio and made all the kids build radios and learn Morse code.
  33. @Autochthon
    Damnit. I meant only to write "well played" with an "LOL" but this shitty phone was obviously designed by and for the tiny fingers of a rare, female scientist of death....

    Damnit. I meant only to write “well played” with an “LOL” but this shitty phone was obviously designed by and for the tiny fingers of a rare, female scientist of death….

    For a moment there, I thought, “What is wrong with this guy? It’s meant to be satirical. I thought he had some sense of humor.”

    • Replies: @Mishra
    Dude, I think that every time you post.

    j/k ;)
  34. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    What is the big need for this gap to be closed? To add to what Mr. Mohawk said regarding having babies, an impossibility, I don't hear much about closing the gap in strippers and prostitutes which also pay pretty damn well. In fact, on an after-tax and hourly basis, these two professions offer compensation that is higher than any one of the people publishing those papers, and there's ZERO committee work. Plus, you don't have to sweat out tenure .... just, well, STDs and all.

    In physics, the gender gap might take 258 years to fully close...
     
    See, now that's why you all are still stuck in Sociology and have your papers rejected. You don't understand precision and accuracy. What is the tolerance or error-range on this 258 year value your calculations came up with? Do you really know +/- 1/2 year on this? Oh, I guess why you stuck that "might" in there. Real professional, Ed!

    As repulsive as emotionally healthy women would find prostitution, it is a more honest occupation than being a liberal soft-sciences professor. As well as being less destructive to society.

  35. @Twinkie

    Damnit. I meant only to write “well played” with an “LOL” but this shitty phone was obviously designed by and for the tiny fingers of a rare, female scientist of death….
     
    For a moment there, I thought, "What is wrong with this guy? It's meant to be satirical. I thought he had some sense of humor."

    Dude, I think that every time you post.

    j/k 😉

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    My posts are much funnier if you have stiff drink first.
  36. @Rosamond Vincy
    What if women just aren't terribly interested?

    Women, or rather at least one woman whose name I refuse to mention in this thread, dominate(s) the field of obsessing over other people’s private lives…

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Oh, I don't know. Apparently, I have some androgynous qualities. A younger male friend was complaining his supervisor was so bad he was ready to quit. Having survived many corporate @$$holes, I told him how to transfer to another position by researching the dept. of choice and emphasizing his interest in it, touching only briefly on the fact that he could not "grow as an employee" in his present department, because his supervisor wouldn't give him the detailed training he needed to fulfill his responsibilities, etc. I said not to whine about his mgr., because it would make him look bad and because HR was probably well aware of the situation, and was just waiting for the old windbag to retire or die.

    Providing solutions seems to be a masculine trait. Had I been truly feminine, I'd have encouraged my friend to Talk About His Feelings.
  37. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    What if women just aren't terribly interested?

    What if women just aren’t terribly interested?

    Bingo. What they are really saying is that women who have the ‘necessities’ (IQ, future time preference, capacity for long disciplined work) must be kept out of the occupational tracks they prefer and made to go into ones that do not interest them or to which they are temperamentally unsuited, because diversity statistics.

    Most women do not want to be in “Traditionally Male Occupations” not because they are traditionally male but because they involve aspects they find unpleasant or because they are not fascinating to them, or do not give them much reward.

    In electronic manufacturing, the assembly side of the house was traditionally all female and the techs, engineers, and financial people all male. We now have women in those positions at a much greater rate than was traditional, but they are different women than the assemblers. Assembleresses, rework operators, solder inspectors, et al are working class background white women, Asian first and second gen immigrants, a few mestizas. Rarely blacks. Women engineers are even more likely than their male counterparts to come from white collar or professional families. Female bench techs were probably Navy ETs or they had a dad that was very heavily into ham radio and made all the kids build radios and learn Morse code.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    I know a doctor (female), from a family of driven high-flyers, who's just given up work, and says she wishes she'd done something like an art degree (she's a talented and self-taught interior and garden designer).

    (I threw electronic kits, the breadboard type where you can configure what you want from a circuit diagram, at all my kids, daughter included. None were very interested, to them electronic stuff is pretty much black box. When my sons wanted computers, I did insist they build their own desktops)

    , @Moses

    Bingo. What they are really saying is that women who have the ‘necessities’ (IQ, future time preference, capacity for long disciplined work) must be kept out of the occupational tracks they prefer and made to go into ones that do not interest them or to which they are temperamentally unsuited, because diversity statistics.

     

    Yes. And "They" invariably refers to women who did not choose STEM careers themselves. Instead, they chose "gender studies" and the lucrative gender industry. But STEM is the only choice for other women besides them. Because justice!

    Weird.

  38. A lot of research (at least in medicine, with which I am much more familiar) is very workmanlike. Should we give 1.5 mg of this drug or is it safe to give 1.2? What is the quality of life of patients that have surgery X ten years later? This sort of research is very necessary and incredibly boring. On these sorts of projects the best collaborators are female residents, med students, or young attendings. You tell them the basic idea, what data needs to be collected, and they go out and do it, and then write it up. They find citations. They take feedback. They generally do a good job. Young men are a pain in the ass for these sorts of projects because they always want to glam up the project, or they think that they have some brilliant insight that people who have worked in the field for a long time have overlooked. (I was once one of these pain-in-the-ass young men.) But sometime in their late 20s- early 30s these pain-in-the-ass young men have had enough failures that they start to develop some genuine insight into what they are doing and can begin to effectively design/lead these projects, while the younger women just don’t seem to make that transition.

    It’s even more stark for the non-boring research; the high-risk high-reward projects that are a little out there, probably going to fail, but would really be an advance if they worked. These projects almost always happen in the context of informal relationships that men develop. Men just like to talk about work, both while at work and outside of work. They talk about things, not people. And they love to share their pet ideas and speculate irresponsibly. The most productive research collaborations I’ve been a part of have basically started as a grown up version of a dorm room bull sessions. Except that we decided to actually figure out whether someone was full of it or not.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    An extremely accurate observation.
  39. I know Steve Sailer, like me, remembers all those studies predicting the exact date at which female track and field records would equal male.

  40. @Yan Shen
    Women, or rather at least one woman whose name I refuse to mention in this thread, dominate(s) the field of obsessing over other people's private lives...

    Oh, I don’t know. Apparently, I have some androgynous qualities. A younger male friend was complaining his supervisor was so bad he was ready to quit. Having survived many corporate @$$holes, I told him how to transfer to another position by researching the dept. of choice and emphasizing his interest in it, touching only briefly on the fact that he could not “grow as an employee” in his present department, because his supervisor wouldn’t give him the detailed training he needed to fulfill his responsibilities, etc. I said not to whine about his mgr., because it would make him look bad and because HR was probably well aware of the situation, and was just waiting for the old windbag to retire or die.

    Providing solutions seems to be a masculine trait. Had I been truly feminine, I’d have encouraged my friend to Talk About His Feelings.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That's being cunning, a trait women often possess more than men.

    It isn't unusual for a woman to figure out how to work or game a system involving human frailties, foibles, or other defects in ways men never would. I've often had to deal with some dork in management and come to the conclusion that there was no way to get around the guy and had a woman explain how she'd maneuver around the guy in a way I'd never have thought of. On a couple of occasions it worked.
  41. @Yan Shen
    One of the most interesting HBD facts is how racial cognitive differences kind of mirror sex differences in cognitive profiles, something which Steve has discussed before.

    I didn't get to discuss that in my previous article on the math/verbal split, but obviously the fact that East Asians tend to excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to Europeans mirrors the way that males excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to women.

    I can't seem to find it, but I think Richard Lynn published some study a while back showing that East Asian versus European college major profiles across different subject areas mirrored that of male versus female choice of college majors.

    China's modern day STEM rise is clearly and disproportionately in the quantitative physical sciences and engineering and skews away from life sciences.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/

    This is true but there’s a further dimension: we can look at the innovativeness of those whites who do go into STEM, and we can continue to compare males and females within life sciences, and we can look at generations. There are a lot of white males of a particular generation I would be happy to consign to Mongolian seraglios. Nevertheless something tells me that differences will still be apparent, for those interested in differences.

  42. @middle aged vet . . .
    prosa123 - I hope you are right. That being said, all of us have the capability of making other people's - maybe not many, but at least some - lives much much better, and sometimes many of us just do not bother. The whole Sanskrit shtick that we apply to nuclear physicists is pretty dramatic but we all live dramatic lives, when you think about it, even very lazy people are dramatically failures from the point of view of those poor souls who need the help of lazy people, who do not want them to be so very very lazy, who want them to help out just a little bit more, but who live lives of despair because the lazy people who could help them will not help them.

    I am not gonna disagree with Yan Shen here but, Well, the money in 2018 is on Chinese life sciences and the IPOs associated with those Chinese "life sciences"...

    Lack of moral boundaries when it comes to life science stuff is gonna be to the future what investing in IBM was to the future back when the most famous Chinese person in America was poor little Garry Trudeau's heartless and relentless caricature of a short stereotyped Chinese woman, wearing the same unflattering ink-black clothes every day, making comments every day that showed how servilely in love she was with an American man (BD I think the "great wit" Trudeau called him, or maybe it was the Somerset Maugham caricature who ran around pretending to be a journalist - who knows, who can follow the trails of this trash?). Heartless, like I said.

    Yan Shen, good luck in the future.

    All that being said, Feynman's memoirs are completely tone-deaf when he talks about his work for the military. He was extremely lucky he was not born in the future Prosperity Zone or in one of the Kaiser's territories, he would not have made it out of the 1940s alive. Nice guy, and funny, and a better person than most of us, but not the sort of person one wants in a son-in-law. Sorry, but that is true.

    That was Duke. BD was Mike Doonesbury’s jock roomate in college at the very start of the strip, when Trudeau himself was in college, who later went to Vietnam and befriended a vertically challenged mother-venerating freedom fighter in pyjamas. Duke was Hunter S. Thompson and his vaguely Vietnamese secretary/girlfriend/Jeeves/muse was supposed to represent Thompson’s secretary/girlfriend/Jeeves/muse of the late seventies and early eighties, who was — dig this — Palestinian (the same chick was responsible for the Terry Gilliam movie reviving interest in Thompson). Trudeau, who has been so articulate lately about how it is neither funny nor free speech to “punch down,” and about afflicting the comfortable, found a Palestinian character too difficult to write, so he went with vaguely South East Asian.

    • Replies: @middle aged vet . . .
    J. Ross - thanks, you know much more about this interesting subject than I do.

    Rosamond Vincy - anon - gunner29 - thanks for clarifying my memories of reading Doonesbury back in the day. I think Steve Sailer is funnier, overall, than Trudeau (i.e more amusing lines per decade) , leaving aside the question of whom one agrees with on the underlying issues, but the Doonesbury guy sure could draw, and he was funny quite often, and got better at drawing from the start until at least the late 80s, when I stopped being interested .... I wish he (Trudeau) was on my side on more issues. Oh well.

    Also, that Chinese woman was potentially the best looking woman in the Doonesbury universe. BD's hippy girlfriend was prettier, I guess, but she lacked self-awareness.

  43. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Oh, I don't know. Apparently, I have some androgynous qualities. A younger male friend was complaining his supervisor was so bad he was ready to quit. Having survived many corporate @$$holes, I told him how to transfer to another position by researching the dept. of choice and emphasizing his interest in it, touching only briefly on the fact that he could not "grow as an employee" in his present department, because his supervisor wouldn't give him the detailed training he needed to fulfill his responsibilities, etc. I said not to whine about his mgr., because it would make him look bad and because HR was probably well aware of the situation, and was just waiting for the old windbag to retire or die.

    Providing solutions seems to be a masculine trait. Had I been truly feminine, I'd have encouraged my friend to Talk About His Feelings.

    That’s being cunning, a trait women often possess more than men.

    It isn’t unusual for a woman to figure out how to work or game a system involving human frailties, foibles, or other defects in ways men never would. I’ve often had to deal with some dork in management and come to the conclusion that there was no way to get around the guy and had a woman explain how she’d maneuver around the guy in a way I’d never have thought of. On a couple of occasions it worked.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Trust me, I learned this stuff the hard way. It took me years.
  44. @Mishra
    Dude, I think that every time you post.

    j/k ;)

    My posts are much funnier if you have stiff drink first.

  45. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:

    OT but …

    PRIZE QUESTION: What does an establishment law firm do in this situation to show its pro bono virtue?

    On March 2, Susan Becerra began driving a new bus route—one identified by witnesses as “bus route number 8.” Becerra had been warned that there was a group of students from the Diana Avenue stop who, because of their chronic misbehavior, had been instructed by the previous driver to sit in the front of the bus. On two successive days, she observed a girl, Victim, trip as she and other girls got off the bus. Thereafter, on March 5, Becerra talked to the girls as they exited the bus. After identifying Victim as the girl who had been tripped, she told Becerra that she had tripped because multiple boys, including M.N., had been touching her inappropriately.

    Thereafter and immediately before class started that day at the School, Becerra approached Principal Griffin and informed her that a female student accompanying her, Victim, had been subjected to inappropriate treatment on the bus. Griffin then took Victim to her office and contacted the Morgan Hill Police Department. From Griffin’s observation, Victim was very scared; she was “shaking, sad, and withdrawn.” Victim was concerned about what would happen to her at school. Griffin testified “there were some comments at certain points that were made to her by these boys that it was not in her best interests to be telling on them.” Victim said she was afraid of the boys.

    ANSWER can be found at the end of this document:

    http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H043343.PDF

  46. Why must there be equal numbers of male and female physicists?

    What’s with all this bigoted oppressive gender binary fascism? There are at least a hundred genders and there won’t be justice until every single one of those genders is equally represented in physics departments. We don’t need any of this “man” and “woman” nonsense. It’s the Current Year!

  47. @Anonymous

    What if women just aren’t terribly interested?
     
    Bingo. What they are really saying is that women who have the 'necessities' (IQ, future time preference, capacity for long disciplined work) must be kept out of the occupational tracks they prefer and made to go into ones that do not interest them or to which they are temperamentally unsuited, because diversity statistics.

    Most women do not want to be in "Traditionally Male Occupations" not because they are traditionally male but because they involve aspects they find unpleasant or because they are not fascinating to them, or do not give them much reward.

    In electronic manufacturing, the assembly side of the house was traditionally all female and the techs, engineers, and financial people all male. We now have women in those positions at a much greater rate than was traditional, but they are different women than the assemblers. Assembleresses, rework operators, solder inspectors, et al are working class background white women, Asian first and second gen immigrants, a few mestizas. Rarely blacks. Women engineers are even more likely than their male counterparts to come from white collar or professional families. Female bench techs were probably Navy ETs or they had a dad that was very heavily into ham radio and made all the kids build radios and learn Morse code.

    I know a doctor (female), from a family of driven high-flyers, who’s just given up work, and says she wishes she’d done something like an art degree (she’s a talented and self-taught interior and garden designer).

    (I threw electronic kits, the breadboard type where you can configure what you want from a circuit diagram, at all my kids, daughter included. None were very interested, to them electronic stuff is pretty much black box. When my sons wanted computers, I did insist they build their own desktops)

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    Very few people give much thought to what actually goes on inside even the most rudimentary piece of equipment. For example, I recall someone years ago on the web alluding to how we "just know" not to yank an electrical cord out of the outlet because we figure it will mess up the electrical connection at the plug because the only people he ever saw doing this were FEMALES. That is physical intuition at its most basic level. Guys think about stuff like that.

    To put it another way, I have never seen a chick disassemble a piece of equipment just to see what's inside it that makes it tick. Guys like guns because they are mechanically interesting -- "Forgotten Weapons" (on full30.com and Pornhub too!) keeps going from people like that.

    Heathkit used to be a great familiariser of the masses with basic electronics; the loss of Radio Shack I believe is a great tragedy to the DIYers. PRC manufacture is so efficient that purchase replacement has long since replaced the analyze & repair mentality Westerners had pre-21st century.
  48. So why are most of the coroners on TV shows women?

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    The same reason all the judges are. It's a good way to give an under-five to someone you don't want as a lead.
  49. Luke Holman from the University of Melbourne got that estimate by working out the number of female and male authors on almost 10 million academic papers, published over the last 15 years. With help from Melbourne colleagues Cindy Hauser and Devi Stuart-Fox, he then used the data to estimate the size of the well-documented gender gap in science, and more importantly, how long it might take to close.

    Well that was grant money well spent.

  50. I work in the computer industry. In school the number of women was around 50% in each class, and now at companies that I have worked for the ratio is about the same in term of employees. Most of the bosses I have had since going into programming have been women and most of the professors who taught programming back in school were women. The company I work for now, a large healthcare services company, is run by women. My immediate boss is a woman as is her boss. The primary software we work with is the largest EMR software in the world. It was created by a woman and she still runs the company. The work we do is boring and tedious. If there is any bias at all it is very blatant ageism. Millennials are considered by our company as people that can be molded into the perfect “company people” and all attention is paid to their needs. Another reason this is is that our company is located in a smaller city and the fear is that younger talent will run off to a major market like Chicago or Dallas if not enough attention is given to nurture these younger employees. Any way, anybody over 35 is wasting their time in this company, and I suspect from hearing from others, in the industry as a whole. As for similar reasons, other companies coddle younger workers and could care less about older ones. This whole women vs. men meme running through STEM is BS.

  51. @Yan Shen
    One of the most interesting HBD facts is how racial cognitive differences kind of mirror sex differences in cognitive profiles, something which Steve has discussed before.

    I didn't get to discuss that in my previous article on the math/verbal split, but obviously the fact that East Asians tend to excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to Europeans mirrors the way that males excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to women.

    I can't seem to find it, but I think Richard Lynn published some study a while back showing that East Asian versus European college major profiles across different subject areas mirrored that of male versus female choice of college majors.

    China's modern day STEM rise is clearly and disproportionately in the quantitative physical sciences and engineering and skews away from life sciences.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/

    I didn’t get to discuss that in my previous article on the math/verbal split, but obviously the fact that East Asians tend to excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to Europeans mirrors the way that males excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to women.

    Actually, i’d say the really interesting HBD thing is that the cognitive profile and personality profile don’t trend the same way.

    Relative to whites the East Asian cognitive profile is more math/spatial–a male trait–
    while the personality profile is more cooperative–a female trait.

    As I commented, while the basic thesis of you article seems to me–both obvious and–correct, i.e. “Asians good at math” and this helps Asians push ahead in the STEM fields, your claims that it’s been the most important factor is wrong.

    East Asia’s dramatic rise in terms of HBD factors, the ranking is
    1) IQ (g) — i.e. general intelligence

    2) Personality profile–high conscientiousness, high cooperation, low time preference–ideal of organizing industrial production. I.e. Asian grinding. Asians on average can work harder and longer without complaint. A good bit of the Asian rise has been fueled by packing Asian women into factories and having them work long hours at a relatively high level of quality. (Something the people in pretty much all other 3rd world nations were–and still are–completely unable to do.)

    3) Finally, the math/verbal split. Being able to grab hold of Western technology, understand it and begin to make their own advances.

    #3 seems more likely to become more and more salient moving forward–as it has for Japan already–as East Asia pushes ahead of the West. But again, even in the future, the biggest factor not going to be this, but the West committing suicide through diversity.

    • Replies: @Marcus D.
    The talent for science of Asians is much lower than people usually imagine. They learn very well what was already discovered, but their contributions with new knowledge aren't so bright. Even if you compare the Japanese with poorer southern European countries like Italy and Spain, they lose. If you compare them with northern Europeans they lose by far.

    This corroborate the reputation of Asians as unimaginative people that copy and imitate the European achievments.

    You can see this, when you compare the number of citations per paper from different countries:

    United States 23.58
    China 7.16
    United Kingdom 21.04
    Germany 19.07
    Japan 14.98
    France 18.56
    Canada 21.14
    Italy 17.50
    Spain 15.89
    Australia 18.33
    South Korea 11.75
    Netherlands 24.67
    Switzerland 25.64
    Taiwan 11.97
    Sweden 23.59
    Austria 19.04
    Denmark 24.28
    Israel 21.70
    Finland 21.17
    Norway 19.25
    Singapore 16.98
    Hong Kong 18.19
    New Zealand 18.14
    Ireland 17.87

    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php

    Even extremely wealthy and competitive cities like Singapore and Hong Kong, with a enormous number of foreigner talent (more than 70% of the academic staff in the best universities), many of them ethnic Europeans, aren't as good as small northern European countries with native talent.

  52. @Anonymous
    That's being cunning, a trait women often possess more than men.

    It isn't unusual for a woman to figure out how to work or game a system involving human frailties, foibles, or other defects in ways men never would. I've often had to deal with some dork in management and come to the conclusion that there was no way to get around the guy and had a woman explain how she'd maneuver around the guy in a way I'd never have thought of. On a couple of occasions it worked.

    Trust me, I learned this stuff the hard way. It took me years.

  53. @The Alarmist
    So why are most of the coroners on TV shows women?

    The same reason all the judges are. It’s a good way to give an under-five to someone you don’t want as a lead.

  54. @middle aged vet . . .
    prosa123 - I hope you are right. That being said, all of us have the capability of making other people's - maybe not many, but at least some - lives much much better, and sometimes many of us just do not bother. The whole Sanskrit shtick that we apply to nuclear physicists is pretty dramatic but we all live dramatic lives, when you think about it, even very lazy people are dramatically failures from the point of view of those poor souls who need the help of lazy people, who do not want them to be so very very lazy, who want them to help out just a little bit more, but who live lives of despair because the lazy people who could help them will not help them.

    I am not gonna disagree with Yan Shen here but, Well, the money in 2018 is on Chinese life sciences and the IPOs associated with those Chinese "life sciences"...

    Lack of moral boundaries when it comes to life science stuff is gonna be to the future what investing in IBM was to the future back when the most famous Chinese person in America was poor little Garry Trudeau's heartless and relentless caricature of a short stereotyped Chinese woman, wearing the same unflattering ink-black clothes every day, making comments every day that showed how servilely in love she was with an American man (BD I think the "great wit" Trudeau called him, or maybe it was the Somerset Maugham caricature who ran around pretending to be a journalist - who knows, who can follow the trails of this trash?). Heartless, like I said.

    Yan Shen, good luck in the future.

    All that being said, Feynman's memoirs are completely tone-deaf when he talks about his work for the military. He was extremely lucky he was not born in the future Prosperity Zone or in one of the Kaiser's territories, he would not have made it out of the 1940s alive. Nice guy, and funny, and a better person than most of us, but not the sort of person one wants in a son-in-law. Sorry, but that is true.

    She wasn’t that servile. Early storylines had her deliberately mistranslating everything Uncle Duke actually said so he wouldn’t offend the audience. The Jeeves comparison is pretty close to the mark: she was constantly managing the situation to save Duke, who never had a clue.

  55. It’s been reported that transgender men (i.e., those who made the female-to-male
    transition) have been known to say, “For the first time in my life I get physics.”
    I’m in a technical field, and my dean (who is a woman) told me she did very well
    in physics in college but the subject still went completely over her head.
    My female students (and we get a lot of them in the gen ed classes we’re all
    required to teach) usually tell me, in so many words, that they “love biology,
    like chemistry, but hate physics.”

  56. Stopped reading the Atlantic when they removed comments. Can’t believe I’m the only one.

  57. @YetAnotherAnon
    I know a doctor (female), from a family of driven high-flyers, who's just given up work, and says she wishes she'd done something like an art degree (she's a talented and self-taught interior and garden designer).

    (I threw electronic kits, the breadboard type where you can configure what you want from a circuit diagram, at all my kids, daughter included. None were very interested, to them electronic stuff is pretty much black box. When my sons wanted computers, I did insist they build their own desktops)

    Very few people give much thought to what actually goes on inside even the most rudimentary piece of equipment. For example, I recall someone years ago on the web alluding to how we “just know” not to yank an electrical cord out of the outlet because we figure it will mess up the electrical connection at the plug because the only people he ever saw doing this were FEMALES. That is physical intuition at its most basic level. Guys think about stuff like that.

    To put it another way, I have never seen a chick disassemble a piece of equipment just to see what’s inside it that makes it tick. Guys like guns because they are mechanically interesting — “Forgotten Weapons” (on full30.com and Pornhub too!) keeps going from people like that.

    Heathkit used to be a great familiariser of the masses with basic electronics; the loss of Radio Shack I believe is a great tragedy to the DIYers. PRC manufacture is so efficient that purchase replacement has long since replaced the analyze & repair mentality Westerners had pre-21st century.

  58. @Achmed E. Newman
    What is the big need for this gap to be closed? To add to what Mr. Mohawk said regarding having babies, an impossibility, I don't hear much about closing the gap in strippers and prostitutes which also pay pretty damn well. In fact, on an after-tax and hourly basis, these two professions offer compensation that is higher than any one of the people publishing those papers, and there's ZERO committee work. Plus, you don't have to sweat out tenure .... just, well, STDs and all.

    In physics, the gender gap might take 258 years to fully close...
     
    See, now that's why you all are still stuck in Sociology and have your papers rejected. You don't understand precision and accuracy. What is the tolerance or error-range on this 258 year value your calculations came up with? Do you really know +/- 1/2 year on this? Oh, I guess why you stuck that "might" in there. Real professional, Ed!

    What is the big need for this gap to be closed?

    Asking the rhetorical question as is common on centrist, right-side and right-wing response / reaction to this sort of thing not only fails to stop it, it makes it stronger.

    I really don’t understand why that isn’t sinking in with the right.

    People (not everyone – I mean “people” as in a democratic threshold necessary to move politics) do not respond to good or right argumentation or fairness – they respond to power.

    When you demonstrate that you can do something irrational and still not be stopped – that is a demonstration of power. People, in turn, follow the side that has demonstrated power because no one wants to be on the business end of the bat.

    If you cannot or will not form alliances of sufficient quantity to create the political will to resist irrationality, then you have to take different approaches. Mishra in comment #25 has the right idea:

    Why all this sturm und drang? Simply prohibit males from publishing for the next 300 years or so, to even things out. Prohibit white people, too. Actually, prohibit white males from accomplishing anything at all.

    …literally: run candidates – right wing candidates – to make it worse. Hit the left from the left. Be entirely plain what you’re doing, “look, this is where you want us to go. Why wait? Let’s go there right now.”

    Then the left either has to help and sow the seeds of its own destruction by going there before the frog has boiled, or reverse course and pivot back to rationality.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    When you demonstrate that you can do something irrational and still not be stopped – that is a demonstration of power. People, in turn, follow the side that has demonstrated power because no one wants to be on the business end of the bat. [Your Bold]
     
    I agree with this PSH, and I guess I was just replying sanely to the iSteve commenters and readers (and author, of course)

    However, I don't agree that letting the left get what it wants, good and hard, is the answer. It'd be like sitting back and letting the Bolsheviks or Mao's people get their way. The misery to follow could last 100 years. It's not like they are only ruining their own lives - they will take us all down with them.

    I agree that you can't really reason sanely with these people, because they just are projecting power and don't care if your arguments are logically correct. I believe, though, that a good response directly to these people is "NO!" or "Fuck you, I'm not doing it!"
  59. @Zpaladin
    Gender bias would predict that the more subjective sciences, such as anthropology or psychology would allow for more subterfuge than objective sciences duch as mathematics or physics. Flaws in journals of math are more likely to be immediately exposed.
    Of course, we find the opposite the case. The more politicized, the fuzzier or more subjective the science, the more likely it is to tilt female.
    Think of it this way, which would be easier to impersonate: a math professor or a sociology professor?
    This is similar to chess ratings, which are objective and the top grandmasters are a virtually all male.

    An even more apt example would be Contract Bridge. Most Chess players are men but most Bridge players are women. Yet except for Helen Sobel there has never been a really formidable female Bridge player.

    Bridge was created (by Eli Culbertson I think) with language that is full of sexual double entendres .

  60. It’s pointless to even pick at the various stupidities here. This whole thing is stupid end-to-end.

    All this “gender equity” nonsense is a sign of civilization in decline.

    I know plenty of competent women in STEM–including AnotherMom. And a nation can glean some extra scientific/technical progress by tapping the skills of women who are so inclined, before and after their child bearing.

    But the main thing a civilization needs from its smart women is … smart babies! The old traditional order–which wasn’t “sexist” but entirely natural for an era when there was a lot more work involved in housework and childcare–got the job done just fine. And you can have a perfectly sane order that prioritized babies, but gives women freedom to pursue whatever career interests they have.

    But a society that preaches “gender equity”, expects women to match what men do and tells women to prioritize career, is a society that is dying.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Anon
    The Official Story is that nasty Nazis "forced" women to bear children etc. but the reality was that National Socialism. a la Scandinavia, simply provided financial incentives so that women COULD stay home and raise children. Any woman who WANTED to become a test pilot, for example, was free to do so. But to the Official Storytellers anything less than current year style "liberation" is The Handmaid's Tale.
  61. Anonymous[581] • Disclaimer says:
    @SimpleSong
    A lot of research (at least in medicine, with which I am much more familiar) is very workmanlike. Should we give 1.5 mg of this drug or is it safe to give 1.2? What is the quality of life of patients that have surgery X ten years later? This sort of research is very necessary and incredibly boring. On these sorts of projects the best collaborators are female residents, med students, or young attendings. You tell them the basic idea, what data needs to be collected, and they go out and do it, and then write it up. They find citations. They take feedback. They generally do a good job. Young men are a pain in the ass for these sorts of projects because they always want to glam up the project, or they think that they have some brilliant insight that people who have worked in the field for a long time have overlooked. (I was once one of these pain-in-the-ass young men.) But sometime in their late 20s- early 30s these pain-in-the-ass young men have had enough failures that they start to develop some genuine insight into what they are doing and can begin to effectively design/lead these projects, while the younger women just don't seem to make that transition.

    It's even more stark for the non-boring research; the high-risk high-reward projects that are a little out there, probably going to fail, but would really be an advance if they worked. These projects almost always happen in the context of informal relationships that men develop. Men just like to talk about work, both while at work and outside of work. They talk about things, not people. And they love to share their pet ideas and speculate irresponsibly. The most productive research collaborations I've been a part of have basically started as a grown up version of a dorm room bull sessions. Except that we decided to actually figure out whether someone was full of it or not.

    An extremely accurate observation.

  62. Anon[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @middle aged vet . . .
    prosa123 - I hope you are right. That being said, all of us have the capability of making other people's - maybe not many, but at least some - lives much much better, and sometimes many of us just do not bother. The whole Sanskrit shtick that we apply to nuclear physicists is pretty dramatic but we all live dramatic lives, when you think about it, even very lazy people are dramatically failures from the point of view of those poor souls who need the help of lazy people, who do not want them to be so very very lazy, who want them to help out just a little bit more, but who live lives of despair because the lazy people who could help them will not help them.

    I am not gonna disagree with Yan Shen here but, Well, the money in 2018 is on Chinese life sciences and the IPOs associated with those Chinese "life sciences"...

    Lack of moral boundaries when it comes to life science stuff is gonna be to the future what investing in IBM was to the future back when the most famous Chinese person in America was poor little Garry Trudeau's heartless and relentless caricature of a short stereotyped Chinese woman, wearing the same unflattering ink-black clothes every day, making comments every day that showed how servilely in love she was with an American man (BD I think the "great wit" Trudeau called him, or maybe it was the Somerset Maugham caricature who ran around pretending to be a journalist - who knows, who can follow the trails of this trash?). Heartless, like I said.

    Yan Shen, good luck in the future.

    All that being said, Feynman's memoirs are completely tone-deaf when he talks about his work for the military. He was extremely lucky he was not born in the future Prosperity Zone or in one of the Kaiser's territories, he would not have made it out of the 1940s alive. Nice guy, and funny, and a better person than most of us, but not the sort of person one wants in a son-in-law. Sorry, but that is true.

    I was just thinking about that Duke/Chinawoman bit yesterday! For some reason, at the time, the bit where Duke has some sort of stomach attack at a state dinner (like GHW Bush) and shouts, as he slumps under the table, “You poisoned me with rancid chick chow!” seemed hysterically funny, so much so that I recall it even to this day. But it occurred to me that the Holy Trudeau could never get away with that today.

    • Replies: @gunner29

    “You poisoned me with rancid chick chow!” seemed hysterically funny, so much so that I recall it even to this day. But it occurred to me that the Holy Trudeau could never get away with that today.
     
    1

    It was rancid chink chow. Late 70s or early 80s, I think.
  63. Anon[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    It's pointless to even pick at the various stupidities here. This whole thing is stupid end-to-end.

    All this "gender equity" nonsense is a sign of civilization in decline.

    I know plenty of competent women in STEM--including AnotherMom. And a nation can glean some extra scientific/technical progress by tapping the skills of women who are so inclined, before and after their child bearing.

    But the main thing a civilization needs from its smart women is ... smart babies! The old traditional order--which wasn't "sexist" but entirely natural for an era when there was a lot more work involved in housework and childcare--got the job done just fine. And you can have a perfectly sane order that prioritized babies, but gives women freedom to pursue whatever career interests they have.

    But a society that preaches "gender equity", expects women to match what men do and tells women to prioritize career, is a society that is dying.

    The Official Story is that nasty Nazis “forced” women to bear children etc. but the reality was that National Socialism. a la Scandinavia, simply provided financial incentives so that women COULD stay home and raise children. Any woman who WANTED to become a test pilot, for example, was free to do so. But to the Official Storytellers anything less than current year style “liberation” is The Handmaid’s Tale.

  64. @Anon
    I was just thinking about that Duke/Chinawoman bit yesterday! For some reason, at the time, the bit where Duke has some sort of stomach attack at a state dinner (like GHW Bush) and shouts, as he slumps under the table, "You poisoned me with rancid chick chow!" seemed hysterically funny, so much so that I recall it even to this day. But it occurred to me that the Holy Trudeau could never get away with that today.

    “You poisoned me with rancid chick chow!” seemed hysterically funny, so much so that I recall it even to this day. But it occurred to me that the Holy Trudeau could never get away with that today.

    1

    It was rancid chink chow. Late 70s or early 80s, I think.

  65. @Ivy
    Michael Clayton quotes often apply in the iSteve world. Recall Tilda Swinton (Crowder) and George Clooney (title role) in a climactic scene.

    Karen Crowder: You don't want the money?
    Michael Clayton: Keep the money. You'll need it.
    Don Jefferies: Is this fellow bothering you?
    Michael Clayton: Am I bothering you?
    Don Jefferies: Karen, I've got a board waiting in there. What the hell's going on? Who are you?
    Michael Clayton: I'm Shiva, the God of death.

    I did not expect to like that movie.

    By the end I loved it.

  66. @Reg Cæsar

    Parity is very important.
     
    As any satirist will tell you, some things are beyond parity.

    Well played. All hail Caesar!

  67. @Anon
    Ed Foo Yong should calculate when the race gap will end in sports.

    Thirty years ago when running (and jogging) was all the rage, the then SJWs in the sports commentary world were projecting when women would finally (finally, finally) overtake men in the marathon road race.

    In the then near-recent past, women had improved the world record time in the event by a dozen minutes, while men’s time had only improved by a couple minutes.

    So the geniuses extrapolated the trend in improving times and declared that women would overtake men in about two decades.

  68. “Death Scientist”

    He had a daughter, Katherine “Toni” Oppenheimer, born 1944.

    “Robert Oppenheimer died of cancer in 1967. Soon after, in 1969, Toni Oppenheimer was denied a position as a translator for the United Nations because the FBI refused to grant her a security clearance. That process dredged up many of the communist charges that had been leveled at her father fifteen years before. Toni found herself unable to completely recover from the two events.

    “Soon after losing out on the U.N. position, and after two unsuccessful marriages, Toni permanently relocated to St. John. She became a recluse in her family’s old cottage, with few friends on the remote island. She committed suicide in January, 1977, a month after her 33rd birthday.

    https://www.atomicheritage.org/profile/toni-oppenheimer

  69. There is a persistent vogue in blaming the Counterculture for public skepticism about Big Science. Of course, people don’t still use the term “Counterculture”, but i don’t know the collective label for the combined Forces of Superstition. A rational Enlightenment fan, showing their academic superiority and Right-Think, would list Bible Christian Fundamentalism; the tabloids, all the conspiracy theories on the “history” TV channels, and popular interest in everything from Bigfoot to flying saucers.

    But the real reason is stated clearly in the last quote from this piece: increasingly, the power to broadcast ones ideas is being restricted to two groups: advocates of Ruling Class policies for collective social engineering of consensus belief; and advocates for the importance of the Mainstream media, i.e., articles about elected officials and Hollywood stars. Articles that preach Party doctrine; and articles that popularize the propaganda organs.

    This is the legacy of PC. People get the message: the truth is the truth purely because the Ruling Class says so. The “truth” as argued elsewhere cannot prevail against it. The polls prove that everyone else is changing their opinion. Either convince yourself that they must be right, and accept Party doctrine; or condemn yourself to a marginal life as a lonely person who believes strange, unpleasant things.

    No one is more alone in America than a classic liberal intellectual who grew up in the 1950’s, believing in the Open Society, and free trade in ideas: let all ideas be heard, and the truth will simply prevail. I was one of those. Was I a dupe of a systematic policy of displacing a traditional beliefs, especially Christianity and patriotism? I am a stranger in a strange land-

    I realized many years ago, when I lived in New York, that the New York Post was not more “true” or “false” than the New York Times, but was a lot more amusing. That’s why more people watch Ancient Aliens and TMZ than most “news” programs-

  70. @J.Ross
    That was Duke. BD was Mike Doonesbury's jock roomate in college at the very start of the strip, when Trudeau himself was in college, who later went to Vietnam and befriended a vertically challenged mother-venerating freedom fighter in pyjamas. Duke was Hunter S. Thompson and his vaguely Vietnamese secretary/girlfriend/Jeeves/muse was supposed to represent Thompson's secretary/girlfriend/Jeeves/muse of the late seventies and early eighties, who was -- dig this -- Palestinian (the same chick was responsible for the Terry Gilliam movie reviving interest in Thompson). Trudeau, who has been so articulate lately about how it is neither funny nor free speech to "punch down," and about afflicting the comfortable, found a Palestinian character too difficult to write, so he went with vaguely South East Asian.

    J. Ross – thanks, you know much more about this interesting subject than I do.

    Rosamond Vincy – anon – gunner29 – thanks for clarifying my memories of reading Doonesbury back in the day. I think Steve Sailer is funnier, overall, than Trudeau (i.e more amusing lines per decade) , leaving aside the question of whom one agrees with on the underlying issues, but the Doonesbury guy sure could draw, and he was funny quite often, and got better at drawing from the start until at least the late 80s, when I stopped being interested …. I wish he (Trudeau) was on my side on more issues. Oh well.

    Also, that Chinese woman was potentially the best looking woman in the Doonesbury universe. BD’s hippy girlfriend was prettier, I guess, but she lacked self-awareness.

  71. @prosa123
    When Oppenheimer said "Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds" after the Trinity Test, he probably meant it in a much more figurative sense. Given his knowledge of the Sanskrit writings from which he took the line, a more accurate meaning would be something along the lines of "I now have a huge responsibility, and must carry it out wisely."

    a more accurate meaning would be something along the lines of “I now have a huge responsibility, and must carry it out wisely.”

    Got any evidence of that?
    The plain meaning is a combination of “I am a golden god” and “The horror, the horror.”

  72. @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    What is the big need for this gap to be closed?
     
    Asking the rhetorical question as is common on centrist, right-side and right-wing response / reaction to this sort of thing not only fails to stop it, it makes it stronger.

    I really don't understand why that isn't sinking in with the right.

    People (not everyone - I mean "people" as in a democratic threshold necessary to move politics) do not respond to good or right argumentation or fairness - they respond to power.

    When you demonstrate that you can do something irrational and still not be stopped - that is a demonstration of power. People, in turn, follow the side that has demonstrated power because no one wants to be on the business end of the bat.

    If you cannot or will not form alliances of sufficient quantity to create the political will to resist irrationality, then you have to take different approaches. Mishra in comment #25 has the right idea:


    Why all this sturm und drang? Simply prohibit males from publishing for the next 300 years or so, to even things out. Prohibit white people, too. Actually, prohibit white males from accomplishing anything at all.
     
    ...literally: run candidates - right wing candidates - to make it worse. Hit the left from the left. Be entirely plain what you're doing, "look, this is where you want us to go. Why wait? Let's go there right now."

    Then the left either has to help and sow the seeds of its own destruction by going there before the frog has boiled, or reverse course and pivot back to rationality.

    When you demonstrate that you can do something irrational and still not be stopped – that is a demonstration of power. People, in turn, follow the side that has demonstrated power because no one wants to be on the business end of the bat. [Your Bold]

    I agree with this PSH, and I guess I was just replying sanely to the iSteve commenters and readers (and author, of course)

    However, I don’t agree that letting the left get what it wants, good and hard, is the answer. It’d be like sitting back and letting the Bolsheviks or Mao’s people get their way. The misery to follow could last 100 years. It’s not like they are only ruining their own lives – they will take us all down with them.

    I agree that you can’t really reason sanely with these people, because they just are projecting power and don’t care if your arguments are logically correct. I believe, though, that a good response directly to these people is “NO!” or “Fuck you, I’m not doing it!”

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    However, I don’t agree that letting the left get what it wants, good and hard, is the answer. It’d be like sitting back and letting the Bolsheviks or Mao’s people get their way.
     
    You don't give them what they want. You give them what they claim to want.

    When feminists bleat about equality you say OK, we're going to eliminate all women's sports. In order to demonstrate how equal they are in future women tennis players etc will compete on level terms with men.

    When liberals whine about reparations or how necessary AA is in academia you tell them they're right but they haven't gone far enough. As reparations for slavery all white university professors should be immediately fired and replaced by People of Color. Let's see how white liberal professors like them apples.
  73. @AnotherDad

    I didn’t get to discuss that in my previous article on the math/verbal split, but obviously the fact that East Asians tend to excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to Europeans mirrors the way that males excel at spatial/mathematical aptitude relative to women.
     
    Actually, i'd say the really interesting HBD thing is that the cognitive profile and personality profile don't trend the same way.

    Relative to whites the East Asian cognitive profile is more math/spatial--a male trait--
    while the personality profile is more cooperative--a female trait.



    As I commented, while the basic thesis of you article seems to me--both obvious and--correct, i.e. "Asians good at math" and this helps Asians push ahead in the STEM fields, your claims that it's been the most important factor is wrong.

    East Asia's dramatic rise in terms of HBD factors, the ranking is
    1) IQ (g) -- i.e. general intelligence

    2) Personality profile--high conscientiousness, high cooperation, low time preference--ideal of organizing industrial production. I.e. Asian grinding. Asians on average can work harder and longer without complaint. A good bit of the Asian rise has been fueled by packing Asian women into factories and having them work long hours at a relatively high level of quality. (Something the people in pretty much all other 3rd world nations were--and still are--completely unable to do.)

    3) Finally, the math/verbal split. Being able to grab hold of Western technology, understand it and begin to make their own advances.

    #3 seems more likely to become more and more salient moving forward--as it has for Japan already--as East Asia pushes ahead of the West. But again, even in the future, the biggest factor not going to be this, but the West committing suicide through diversity.

    The talent for science of Asians is much lower than people usually imagine. They learn very well what was already discovered, but their contributions with new knowledge aren’t so bright. Even if you compare the Japanese with poorer southern European countries like Italy and Spain, they lose. If you compare them with northern Europeans they lose by far.

    This corroborate the reputation of Asians as unimaginative people that copy and imitate the European achievments.

    You can see this, when you compare the number of citations per paper from different countries:

    United States 23.58
    China 7.16
    United Kingdom 21.04
    Germany 19.07
    Japan 14.98
    France 18.56
    Canada 21.14
    Italy 17.50
    Spain 15.89
    Australia 18.33
    South Korea 11.75
    Netherlands 24.67
    Switzerland 25.64
    Taiwan 11.97
    Sweden 23.59
    Austria 19.04
    Denmark 24.28
    Israel 21.70
    Finland 21.17
    Norway 19.25
    Singapore 16.98
    Hong Kong 18.19
    New Zealand 18.14
    Ireland 17.87

    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php

    Even extremely wealthy and competitive cities like Singapore and Hong Kong, with a enormous number of foreigner talent (more than 70% of the academic staff in the best universities), many of them ethnic Europeans, aren’t as good as small northern European countries with native talent.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen

    Even if you compare the Japanese with poorer southern European countries like Italy and Spain, they lose.
     
    Not even close. Since 2000 Japan has 17 Nobel Prize laureates in the natural sciences. By contrast Spain has 2 Nobel Prize laureates in science in its entire history and unlike China which only recently modernized and starting contributing the world science, most European countries have been part of the integrated scientific community for far longer.

    Japan has far higher numbers of world class scientists compared to either Italy or Spain when you consider the pool of future Nobel eligible scientists.

    Per capita citation rates are relevant information, but probably need some degree of interpretation. Also I think you seriously over-state the number of ethnic Europeans working in either Singapore or Hong Kong universities.

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-ties-the-US-as-the-most-influential-nation-in-science


    China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, matching the U.S., according to the Japan Science and Technology Agency.

    And with U.S. President Donald Trump planning a major spending cut for the sciences, China could well take the sole lead.

    Dipping into the global database of scientific theses, the agency took the top 10% of the most-referenced studies in each field and determined the number of authors who were affiliated with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, France, China or Japan. China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. The U.S. led the way in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine.

    China's progress was especially pronounced in computer science. While the country accounted for only 3% of the most-referenced studies in 2000, the figure had surged to 21% by 2015. It has also had the fastest supercomputer in the world since 2013, and the two fastest in 2016.
     

    Also, Chinese Americans are significantly over-represented in American STEM relative to their overall populations. Please education yourself a bit more before commenting on these matters.
  74. @Achmed E. Newman

    When you demonstrate that you can do something irrational and still not be stopped – that is a demonstration of power. People, in turn, follow the side that has demonstrated power because no one wants to be on the business end of the bat. [Your Bold]
     
    I agree with this PSH, and I guess I was just replying sanely to the iSteve commenters and readers (and author, of course)

    However, I don't agree that letting the left get what it wants, good and hard, is the answer. It'd be like sitting back and letting the Bolsheviks or Mao's people get their way. The misery to follow could last 100 years. It's not like they are only ruining their own lives - they will take us all down with them.

    I agree that you can't really reason sanely with these people, because they just are projecting power and don't care if your arguments are logically correct. I believe, though, that a good response directly to these people is "NO!" or "Fuck you, I'm not doing it!"

    However, I don’t agree that letting the left get what it wants, good and hard, is the answer. It’d be like sitting back and letting the Bolsheviks or Mao’s people get their way.

    You don’t give them what they want. You give them what they claim to want.

    When feminists bleat about equality you say OK, we’re going to eliminate all women’s sports. In order to demonstrate how equal they are in future women tennis players etc will compete on level terms with men.

    When liberals whine about reparations or how necessary AA is in academia you tell them they’re right but they haven’t gone far enough. As reparations for slavery all white university professors should be immediately fired and replaced by People of Color. Let’s see how white liberal professors like them apples.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Yeah, but what I and Mr. Handle were both saying is that these people don't care about your or ANY logic, even if you try to use their logic against them. They will find a way to make things go the way they want. For example, at the universities, those white professors, along with the other-colored SJWs will come to an agreement - probably the usual one : the whites get to hang on, pleasing them in the short term which is all they care about, while the others slowly complete their take-over. Keep in mind who run these places, DforDoom.

    Unplug the TV, don't go to their movies, and more importantly try to homeschool and keep your kids out of the cntrl-left institutions, along with yourself. When the money stops, it's all over for these clowns. Peak Stupidity is around the corner.
  75. @Marcus D.
    The talent for science of Asians is much lower than people usually imagine. They learn very well what was already discovered, but their contributions with new knowledge aren't so bright. Even if you compare the Japanese with poorer southern European countries like Italy and Spain, they lose. If you compare them with northern Europeans they lose by far.

    This corroborate the reputation of Asians as unimaginative people that copy and imitate the European achievments.

    You can see this, when you compare the number of citations per paper from different countries:

    United States 23.58
    China 7.16
    United Kingdom 21.04
    Germany 19.07
    Japan 14.98
    France 18.56
    Canada 21.14
    Italy 17.50
    Spain 15.89
    Australia 18.33
    South Korea 11.75
    Netherlands 24.67
    Switzerland 25.64
    Taiwan 11.97
    Sweden 23.59
    Austria 19.04
    Denmark 24.28
    Israel 21.70
    Finland 21.17
    Norway 19.25
    Singapore 16.98
    Hong Kong 18.19
    New Zealand 18.14
    Ireland 17.87

    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php

    Even extremely wealthy and competitive cities like Singapore and Hong Kong, with a enormous number of foreigner talent (more than 70% of the academic staff in the best universities), many of them ethnic Europeans, aren't as good as small northern European countries with native talent.

    Even if you compare the Japanese with poorer southern European countries like Italy and Spain, they lose.

    Not even close. Since 2000 Japan has 17 Nobel Prize laureates in the natural sciences. By contrast Spain has 2 Nobel Prize laureates in science in its entire history and unlike China which only recently modernized and starting contributing the world science, most European countries have been part of the integrated scientific community for far longer.

    Japan has far higher numbers of world class scientists compared to either Italy or Spain when you consider the pool of future Nobel eligible scientists.

    Per capita citation rates are relevant information, but probably need some degree of interpretation. Also I think you seriously over-state the number of ethnic Europeans working in either Singapore or Hong Kong universities.

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-ties-the-US-as-the-most-influential-nation-in-science

    China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, matching the U.S., according to the Japan Science and Technology Agency.

    And with U.S. President Donald Trump planning a major spending cut for the sciences, China could well take the sole lead.

    Dipping into the global database of scientific theses, the agency took the top 10% of the most-referenced studies in each field and determined the number of authors who were affiliated with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, France, China or Japan. China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. The U.S. led the way in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine.

    China’s progress was especially pronounced in computer science. While the country accounted for only 3% of the most-referenced studies in 2000, the figure had surged to 21% by 2015. It has also had the fastest supercomputer in the world since 2013, and the two fastest in 2016.

    Also, Chinese Americans are significantly over-represented in American STEM relative to their overall populations. Please education yourself a bit more before commenting on these matters.

    • Replies: @Marcus D.

    Not even close. Since 2000 Japan has 17 Nobel Prize laureates in the natural sciences. By contrast Spain has 2 Nobel Prize laureates in science in its entire history and unlike China which only recently modernized and starting contributing the world science, most European countries have been part of the integrated scientific community for far longer.

     

    The average citation per paper is the best way to evaluate the scientific impact of a country. It's the gold standart. It indicates the real average performance of thousands laboratories. And in fact, it's a real-time evaluation. Some Nobel Prizes don't represent the widespread importance of the scientific research made by a country. By the way, I used only 2 poorer Western European countries, at the lower limits of the Western Europe potential with the best Asian country.

    Also I think you seriously over-state the number of ethnic
    Europeans working in either Singapore or Hong Kong universities.
     
    Singapore or Hong Kong are cities that atract talent all over the world, Asian
    or not. This is corroborated by the proportion of foreigner-born academic staff of these universities:

    University of Hong Kong:
    Distribution of International Professoriate Staff (Based on Nationality) (Excluding Honorary / Visiting)
    國際教授人員(以國籍釐定)分佈人數(不包括名譽 / 客座教授人員)
    Region
    地區 Headcount
    人數 %
    百分比
    Mainland China 中國內地 234 34.2%
    Other Asian Countries 其他亞洲國家 101 14.8%
    Australia and New Zealand 澳洲及新西蘭 55 8.0%
    European Countries 歐洲國家 134 19.6%
    North American Countries 北美國家 156 22.8%
    Others (e.g. Central and South America, African Countries)
    其他 (例如︰中美及南美、非洲國家) 4 0.6%
    All 總計 684 100%
    https://www.cpao.hku.hk/qstats/staff-profiles

    50% of the staff were born in Western countries. Sure there are a lot of Europeans there.

    I don´t know the number of international professors from the National University of Singapore, so I choosed the physics department.I counted 26 europeans from total of 78. So, there are 1/3 % of ethnic european professors.
    https://www.physics.nus.edu.sg/staff/faculty.html

    I ask myself. What would be the per capita citations for western cities like London, Paris or New York. Or more small homogeneuous places like Zurich, Amsterdam or Copenhagen.


    China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, matching the U.S., according to the Japan Science and Technology Agency.

    And with U.S. President Donald Trump planning a major spending cut for the sciences, China could well take the sole lead.

    Dipping into the global database of scientific theses, the agency took the top 10% of the most-referenced studies in each field and determined the number of authors who were affiliated with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, France, China or Japan. China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. The U.S. led the way in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine.

    China’s progress was especially pronounced in computer science. While the country accounted for only 3% of the most-referenced studies in 2000, the figure had surged to 21% by 2015. It has also had the fastest supercomputer in the world since 2013, and the two fastest in 2016.

     

    Well, the contribution of Asians is only 12,5% in your ranking. Even with a polulation more than double of all Europeans, considering all our different sub-ethnicities. I think the asian contribution of 6% is more proportionally appropriate. We can have a long discussion of why places like China is still underdeveloped. This is a interesting discussion of the historic intellectual inequalities between Europeans and Asians. It will only reinforce the European genius. But now , I want only to know, the biological potential of Asians. Japan is the perfect model to evaluate, because it's the only fully developed Asian country, for at least a half century.

    I was generous when I used Italy and Spain to compare with the most developed Asian country. In fact the difference between Northern Europeans and Japan is enormous. Using the ranking used in the article that you posted, proportionally Italy and Spain have more top scientists than Japan ( Spain has 3 times more top scientists).
    Places like UK, Swizerland or Denmark have near or more than 10 times top scientists than Japan!
    https://clarivate.com/hcr/trends/world-hcr/all/2017/per-capita/


    Also, Chinese Americans are significantly over-represented in American STEM relative to their overall populations. Please education yourself a bit more before commenting on these matters.
     
    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I'm writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it's obvious that Euroepeans are the best (by far).
  76. @Yan Shen

    Even if you compare the Japanese with poorer southern European countries like Italy and Spain, they lose.
     
    Not even close. Since 2000 Japan has 17 Nobel Prize laureates in the natural sciences. By contrast Spain has 2 Nobel Prize laureates in science in its entire history and unlike China which only recently modernized and starting contributing the world science, most European countries have been part of the integrated scientific community for far longer.

    Japan has far higher numbers of world class scientists compared to either Italy or Spain when you consider the pool of future Nobel eligible scientists.

    Per capita citation rates are relevant information, but probably need some degree of interpretation. Also I think you seriously over-state the number of ethnic Europeans working in either Singapore or Hong Kong universities.

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-ties-the-US-as-the-most-influential-nation-in-science


    China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, matching the U.S., according to the Japan Science and Technology Agency.

    And with U.S. President Donald Trump planning a major spending cut for the sciences, China could well take the sole lead.

    Dipping into the global database of scientific theses, the agency took the top 10% of the most-referenced studies in each field and determined the number of authors who were affiliated with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, France, China or Japan. China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. The U.S. led the way in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine.

    China's progress was especially pronounced in computer science. While the country accounted for only 3% of the most-referenced studies in 2000, the figure had surged to 21% by 2015. It has also had the fastest supercomputer in the world since 2013, and the two fastest in 2016.
     

    Also, Chinese Americans are significantly over-represented in American STEM relative to their overall populations. Please education yourself a bit more before commenting on these matters.

    Not even close. Since 2000 Japan has 17 Nobel Prize laureates in the natural sciences. By contrast Spain has 2 Nobel Prize laureates in science in its entire history and unlike China which only recently modernized and starting contributing the world science, most European countries have been part of the integrated scientific community for far longer.

    The average citation per paper is the best way to evaluate the scientific impact of a country. It’s the gold standart. It indicates the real average performance of thousands laboratories. And in fact, it’s a real-time evaluation. Some Nobel Prizes don’t represent the widespread importance of the scientific research made by a country. By the way, I used only 2 poorer Western European countries, at the lower limits of the Western Europe potential with the best Asian country.

    Also I think you seriously over-state the number of ethnic
    Europeans working in either Singapore or Hong Kong universities.

    Singapore or Hong Kong are cities that atract talent all over the world, Asian
    or not. This is corroborated by the proportion of foreigner-born academic staff of these universities:

    University of Hong Kong:
    Distribution of International Professoriate Staff (Based on Nationality) (Excluding Honorary / Visiting)
    國際教授人員(以國籍釐定)分佈人數(不包括名譽 / 客座教授人員)
    Region
    地區 Headcount
    人數 %
    百分比
    Mainland China 中國內地 234 34.2%
    Other Asian Countries 其他亞洲國家 101 14.8%
    Australia and New Zealand 澳洲及新西蘭 55 8.0%
    European Countries 歐洲國家 134 19.6%
    North American Countries 北美國家 156 22.8%
    Others (e.g. Central and South America, African Countries)
    其他 (例如︰中美及南美、非洲國家) 4 0.6%
    All 總計 684 100%
    https://www.cpao.hku.hk/qstats/staff-profiles

    50% of the staff were born in Western countries. Sure there are a lot of Europeans there.

    I don´t know the number of international professors from the National University of Singapore, so I choosed the physics department.I counted 26 europeans from total of 78. So, there are 1/3 % of ethnic european professors.
    https://www.physics.nus.edu.sg/staff/faculty.html

    I ask myself. What would be the per capita citations for western cities like London, Paris or New York. Or more small homogeneuous places like Zurich, Amsterdam or Copenhagen.

    China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, matching the U.S., according to the Japan Science and Technology Agency.

    And with U.S. President Donald Trump planning a major spending cut for the sciences, China could well take the sole lead.

    Dipping into the global database of scientific theses, the agency took the top 10% of the most-referenced studies in each field and determined the number of authors who were affiliated with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, France, China or Japan. China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. The U.S. led the way in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine.

    China’s progress was especially pronounced in computer science. While the country accounted for only 3% of the most-referenced studies in 2000, the figure had surged to 21% by 2015. It has also had the fastest supercomputer in the world since 2013, and the two fastest in 2016.

    Well, the contribution of Asians is only 12,5% in your ranking. Even with a polulation more than double of all Europeans, considering all our different sub-ethnicities. I think the asian contribution of 6% is more proportionally appropriate. We can have a long discussion of why places like China is still underdeveloped. This is a interesting discussion of the historic intellectual inequalities between Europeans and Asians. It will only reinforce the European genius. But now , I want only to know, the biological potential of Asians. Japan is the perfect model to evaluate, because it’s the only fully developed Asian country, for at least a half century.

    I was generous when I used Italy and Spain to compare with the most developed Asian country. In fact the difference between Northern Europeans and Japan is enormous. Using the ranking used in the article that you posted, proportionally Italy and Spain have more top scientists than Japan ( Spain has 3 times more top scientists).
    Places like UK, Swizerland or Denmark have near or more than 10 times top scientists than Japan!
    https://clarivate.com/hcr/trends/world-hcr/all/2017/per-capita/

    Also, Chinese Americans are significantly over-represented in American STEM relative to their overall populations. Please education yourself a bit more before commenting on these matters.

    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I’m writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it’s obvious that Euroepeans are the best (by far).

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they’re talking about. It’s not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won’t suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I’ve heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who’s familiar with whom.

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China’s modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences. And China's rise in STEM isn't even close to having peaked given that it only started around year 2000.


    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley.
     
    Uh no. Chinese Americans are over-represented at basically every level of elite STEM in the US, including as founders of companies, i.e. Jerry Yang of Yahoo or Jen-Hsen Huang of Nvidia. They’re disproportionately over-represented in America’s top science labs, top universities, top academic competitions like USAMO/IMO or the Raytheon Science Talent Search.

    And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I’m writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it’s obvious that Euroepeans are the best.
     
    Yet for some strange reason elite STEM, increasingly in the West even, seems to be disproportionately dominated by East Asians, as I pointed out above.
  77. Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they’re talking about. It’s not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won’t suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I’ve heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who’s familiar with whom.

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China’s modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences.

    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley.

    Uh no. Chinese Americans are over-represented at basically every level of elite STEM in the US, including as founders of companies, i.e. Jerry Yang of Yahoo or Jen-Hsen Huang of Nvidia. They’re disproportionately over-represented in America’s top science labs, top universities, top academic competitions like USAMO/IMO or the Raytheon Science Talent Search.

    And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I’m writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it’s obvious that Euroepeans are the best.

    Yet for some strange reason elite STEM, increasingly in the West even, seems to be disproportionately dominated by East Asians, as I pointed out above.

    • Replies: @Moses

    Jerry Yang of Yahoo
     
    Jerry Yang, whatever his other talents, sucked majorly as a CEO.
  78. @Marcus D.

    Not even close. Since 2000 Japan has 17 Nobel Prize laureates in the natural sciences. By contrast Spain has 2 Nobel Prize laureates in science in its entire history and unlike China which only recently modernized and starting contributing the world science, most European countries have been part of the integrated scientific community for far longer.

     

    The average citation per paper is the best way to evaluate the scientific impact of a country. It's the gold standart. It indicates the real average performance of thousands laboratories. And in fact, it's a real-time evaluation. Some Nobel Prizes don't represent the widespread importance of the scientific research made by a country. By the way, I used only 2 poorer Western European countries, at the lower limits of the Western Europe potential with the best Asian country.

    Also I think you seriously over-state the number of ethnic
    Europeans working in either Singapore or Hong Kong universities.
     
    Singapore or Hong Kong are cities that atract talent all over the world, Asian
    or not. This is corroborated by the proportion of foreigner-born academic staff of these universities:

    University of Hong Kong:
    Distribution of International Professoriate Staff (Based on Nationality) (Excluding Honorary / Visiting)
    國際教授人員(以國籍釐定)分佈人數(不包括名譽 / 客座教授人員)
    Region
    地區 Headcount
    人數 %
    百分比
    Mainland China 中國內地 234 34.2%
    Other Asian Countries 其他亞洲國家 101 14.8%
    Australia and New Zealand 澳洲及新西蘭 55 8.0%
    European Countries 歐洲國家 134 19.6%
    North American Countries 北美國家 156 22.8%
    Others (e.g. Central and South America, African Countries)
    其他 (例如︰中美及南美、非洲國家) 4 0.6%
    All 總計 684 100%
    https://www.cpao.hku.hk/qstats/staff-profiles

    50% of the staff were born in Western countries. Sure there are a lot of Europeans there.

    I don´t know the number of international professors from the National University of Singapore, so I choosed the physics department.I counted 26 europeans from total of 78. So, there are 1/3 % of ethnic european professors.
    https://www.physics.nus.edu.sg/staff/faculty.html

    I ask myself. What would be the per capita citations for western cities like London, Paris or New York. Or more small homogeneuous places like Zurich, Amsterdam or Copenhagen.


    China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, matching the U.S., according to the Japan Science and Technology Agency.

    And with U.S. President Donald Trump planning a major spending cut for the sciences, China could well take the sole lead.

    Dipping into the global database of scientific theses, the agency took the top 10% of the most-referenced studies in each field and determined the number of authors who were affiliated with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, France, China or Japan. China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. The U.S. led the way in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine.

    China’s progress was especially pronounced in computer science. While the country accounted for only 3% of the most-referenced studies in 2000, the figure had surged to 21% by 2015. It has also had the fastest supercomputer in the world since 2013, and the two fastest in 2016.

     

    Well, the contribution of Asians is only 12,5% in your ranking. Even with a polulation more than double of all Europeans, considering all our different sub-ethnicities. I think the asian contribution of 6% is more proportionally appropriate. We can have a long discussion of why places like China is still underdeveloped. This is a interesting discussion of the historic intellectual inequalities between Europeans and Asians. It will only reinforce the European genius. But now , I want only to know, the biological potential of Asians. Japan is the perfect model to evaluate, because it's the only fully developed Asian country, for at least a half century.

    I was generous when I used Italy and Spain to compare with the most developed Asian country. In fact the difference between Northern Europeans and Japan is enormous. Using the ranking used in the article that you posted, proportionally Italy and Spain have more top scientists than Japan ( Spain has 3 times more top scientists).
    Places like UK, Swizerland or Denmark have near or more than 10 times top scientists than Japan!
    https://clarivate.com/hcr/trends/world-hcr/all/2017/per-capita/


    Also, Chinese Americans are significantly over-represented in American STEM relative to their overall populations. Please education yourself a bit more before commenting on these matters.
     
    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I'm writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it's obvious that Euroepeans are the best (by far).

    Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they’re talking about. It’s not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won’t suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I’ve heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who’s familiar with whom.

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China’s modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences. And China’s rise in STEM isn’t even close to having peaked given that it only started around year 2000.

    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley.

    Uh no. Chinese Americans are over-represented at basically every level of elite STEM in the US, including as founders of companies, i.e. Jerry Yang of Yahoo or Jen-Hsen Huang of Nvidia. They’re disproportionately over-represented in America’s top science labs, top universities, top academic competitions like USAMO/IMO or the Raytheon Science Talent Search.

    And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I’m writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it’s obvious that Euroepeans are the best.

    Yet for some strange reason elite STEM, increasingly in the West even, seems to be disproportionately dominated by East Asians, as I pointed out above.

    • Replies: @Marcus D.

    Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they’re talking about. It’s not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won’t suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I’ve heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who’s familiar with whom.

     

    Awards are not the correct way to evaluate the general scientific competence of a country. For example, there are 12 French Fields medalists, and only one German. Do you think that the competence of German mathematicians are weaker than of the French mathematicians ? In fact in the metrics, they are very similar.

    And in reality Spain and Italy are better than Japan not only in the average performance of all their scientists. They also have more top scientists, that do high end science. I used the ranking from the article that you posted, as I wrote above. There are only 3300 scientists in that ranking from millions around the world.

    Here the exact data for 2017:
    Italy 46 scientists for a population of 57 million
    Spain 58 scientists for a population of 39 million
    Japan 75 scientists for a population of 126 million
    https://clarivate.com/hcr/trends/world-hcr/all/2017/per-capita/

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China’s modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences. And China’s rise in STEM isn’t even close to having peaked given that it only started around year 2000.

     

    In fact the average performance for Japanese scientists are worse than of Italy or Spain also on hard sciences:
    The data for physiscs:
    Japan 13.19
    Italy 16.44
    Spain 17.58
    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?area=3100
    Or mathematics:
    Japan 6.59
    Italy 8.85
    Spain 8.70
    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?area=2600
  79. @Anonymous

    What if women just aren’t terribly interested?
     
    Bingo. What they are really saying is that women who have the 'necessities' (IQ, future time preference, capacity for long disciplined work) must be kept out of the occupational tracks they prefer and made to go into ones that do not interest them or to which they are temperamentally unsuited, because diversity statistics.

    Most women do not want to be in "Traditionally Male Occupations" not because they are traditionally male but because they involve aspects they find unpleasant or because they are not fascinating to them, or do not give them much reward.

    In electronic manufacturing, the assembly side of the house was traditionally all female and the techs, engineers, and financial people all male. We now have women in those positions at a much greater rate than was traditional, but they are different women than the assemblers. Assembleresses, rework operators, solder inspectors, et al are working class background white women, Asian first and second gen immigrants, a few mestizas. Rarely blacks. Women engineers are even more likely than their male counterparts to come from white collar or professional families. Female bench techs were probably Navy ETs or they had a dad that was very heavily into ham radio and made all the kids build radios and learn Morse code.

    Bingo. What they are really saying is that women who have the ‘necessities’ (IQ, future time preference, capacity for long disciplined work) must be kept out of the occupational tracks they prefer and made to go into ones that do not interest them or to which they are temperamentally unsuited, because diversity statistics.

    Yes. And “They” invariably refers to women who did not choose STEM careers themselves. Instead, they chose “gender studies” and the lucrative gender industry. But STEM is the only choice for other women besides them. Because justice!

    Weird.

  80. @Yan Shen
    Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they're talking about. It's not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won't suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I've heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who's familiar with whom.

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China's modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences.


    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley.
     
    Uh no. Chinese Americans are over-represented at basically every level of elite STEM in the US, including as founders of companies, i.e. Jerry Yang of Yahoo or Jen-Hsen Huang of Nvidia. They're disproportionately over-represented in America's top science labs, top universities, top academic competitions like USAMO/IMO or the Raytheon Science Talent Search.

    And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I’m writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it’s obvious that Euroepeans are the best.
     
    Yet for some strange reason elite STEM, increasingly in the West even, seems to be disproportionately dominated by East Asians, as I pointed out above.

    Jerry Yang of Yahoo

    Jerry Yang, whatever his other talents, sucked majorly as a CEO.

  81. @Yan Shen
    Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they’re talking about. It’s not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won’t suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I’ve heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who’s familiar with whom.

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China’s modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences. And China's rise in STEM isn't even close to having peaked given that it only started around year 2000.


    Asians are very good professionals, with their strong work ethics (and yes, with their IQ). This explain their success in USA, as doctors or working as coders for European or Jewish entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley.
     
    Uh no. Chinese Americans are over-represented at basically every level of elite STEM in the US, including as founders of companies, i.e. Jerry Yang of Yahoo or Jen-Hsen Huang of Nvidia. They’re disproportionately over-represented in America’s top science labs, top universities, top academic competitions like USAMO/IMO or the Raytheon Science Talent Search.

    And Asians make very orderly and wealthy societies. But I writting about a level above this. I’m writting about the limits of the human achievements, and it’s obvious that Euroepeans are the best.
     
    Yet for some strange reason elite STEM, increasingly in the West even, seems to be disproportionately dominated by East Asians, as I pointed out above.

    Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they’re talking about. It’s not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won’t suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I’ve heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who’s familiar with whom.

    Awards are not the correct way to evaluate the general scientific competence of a country. For example, there are 12 French Fields medalists, and only one German. Do you think that the competence of German mathematicians are weaker than of the French mathematicians ? In fact in the metrics, they are very similar.

    And in reality Spain and Italy are better than Japan not only in the average performance of all their scientists. They also have more top scientists, that do high end science. I used the ranking from the article that you posted, as I wrote above. There are only 3300 scientists in that ranking from millions around the world.

    Here the exact data for 2017:
    Italy 46 scientists for a population of 57 million
    Spain 58 scientists for a population of 39 million
    Japan 75 scientists for a population of 126 million
    https://clarivate.com/hcr/trends/world-hcr/all/2017/per-capita/

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China’s modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences. And China’s rise in STEM isn’t even close to having peaked given that it only started around year 2000.

    In fact the average performance for Japanese scientists are worse than of Italy or Spain also on hard sciences:
    The data for physiscs:
    Japan 13.19
    Italy 16.44
    Spain 17.58
    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?area=3100
    Or mathematics:
    Japan 6.59
    Italy 8.85
    Spain 8.70
    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?area=2600

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Based on your own links, even some African or Latin countries like Namibia, Bolivia, and Venezuela average substantially higher citations per physics paper than Japan!

    Based on that list and sorted by per capita citations, Japan ranks 60th. If you think Japan is the world's 60th best physics research nation and behind physics powerhouses like Bolivia and Venezuela, then I truly have a bridge to sell you. Please use your brain here. :)

  82. Sorry but you’re sadly mistaken if you think Spain and Italy are ahead of Japan in science, especially in physics. It’s not even close.

    Japan is a world leader in physics and has produced numerous world class physicists post 1950. Trust me. In fact, talk to anyone who works in science or understands science and ask them which country is by far superior in the field of physics, Japan or Spain. The fact that you’re even trying to argue otherwise suggests you’re an amateur with no real understanding of the field.

    If you think Spain or even Italy rank above it just because they average higher citation rates per paper in physics, then I have a bridge to sell you. This is probably the clearest indication that the kinds of metrics you cite aren’t particularly useful for assessing high level science.

  83. I should also point out that the Clarivate highly cited data isn’t as useful as it might seem because I’ve skimmed the lists in the past and noticed that numerous Japanese scientists who have been considered to be Nobel worthy future laureates weren’t necessarily on those lists in different fields.

    I can guarantee you that the vast majority of Spanish and Italian highly cited in Clarviate have no chance at ever winning a Nobel prize while Japan has actually a high number of potential Nobel prize winners, including many who may not be in those lists.

    The fact that you’re convinced that Spain, which has contributed relatively little to modern science post 1950, apart from a couple of well known scientists like Juan Ignacio Cirac, is actually ahead of Japan, especially in the field of physics suggests that you know very little apart from citing some superficially interesting but flawed numbers.

    In fact, let’s make a monetary bet. We’ll ask knowledgeable third parties such as professional physicists to assess which country is superior in physics Japan or Spain.

    Don’t double down on a bad bet.

  84. In fact since Marcus seems to be over-invested in his completely absurd thesis that Spain is superior to Japan in science, let’s do the following exercise. Since the topic is elite world class science, let’s try to name 15 scientists off of the top of our heads who currently haven’t won the Nobel prize but who are considered to be Nobel worthy candidates in that based on their resumes so far no one would be surprised if they were to win the Nobel prize in the future. We’ll do this for Spain and for Japan.

    For Japan, the first 15 names I have in mind are Akira Yoshino, Susumu Kitagawa, Makoto Fujita, Kazutoshi Mori, Shizuo Akira, Tadamitsu Kishimoto, Tasuku Honjo, Seiji Ogawa, Sumio Iijima, Hideo Hosono, Akira Endo, Akira Fujishima, Tsutomu Miyasaka, Shimon Sakaguchi, and Yoshinori Tokura.

    For Spain, the only name that immediately comes to mind is Juan Ignacio Cirac. This may in part be because of my skewed focus on Japan as opposed to Spain, so perhaps Marcus can complete the other 14 for us.

    Of course, given that Spain has only produced 2 Nobel science laureates since 1900, despite the fact that unlike China which only really began to modernize in recent decades and which, as I’ve shown, only has really started to take off in science post 2000, European countries have been integrated into world science for many decades if not centuries, we may never see 15 total Spanish science winners in our lifetimes even.

    There’s no Spanish university even remotely close to the levels of the top universities in Japan or East Asia.

  85. @Marcus D.

    Sorry, anyone who thinks Japan lags a country like Spain in science has no clue what they’re talking about. It’s not even close. Since 2000 Japan has won the 2nd most number of Nobel Prizes in the natural sciences apart from America. There are no Spanish universities even remotely close to the kind of prestige that schools like the University of Tokyo or Kyoto University enjoy. And as I pointed out, Japan has a huge pool of future potential Nobel laureates while Spain basically has minimal to none.

    In fact, the very fact that Japan lags Spain or Italy on some of the kinds of metrics you cite suggest that they may not be particularly good for assessing high end science. I won’t suggest all the possible reasons, but some of the criticisms I’ve heard before are that average citation rates may in part be a reflection of network effects and who’s familiar with whom.

     

    Awards are not the correct way to evaluate the general scientific competence of a country. For example, there are 12 French Fields medalists, and only one German. Do you think that the competence of German mathematicians are weaker than of the French mathematicians ? In fact in the metrics, they are very similar.

    And in reality Spain and Italy are better than Japan not only in the average performance of all their scientists. They also have more top scientists, that do high end science. I used the ranking from the article that you posted, as I wrote above. There are only 3300 scientists in that ranking from millions around the world.

    Here the exact data for 2017:
    Italy 46 scientists for a population of 57 million
    Spain 58 scientists for a population of 39 million
    Japan 75 scientists for a population of 126 million
    https://clarivate.com/hcr/trends/world-hcr/all/2017/per-capita/

    Another point to take into account is that usually these metrics account for a variety of soft fields such as social sciences and life sciences where East Asian countries may have relatively minimal presence, given that they tend to skew towards hard quantitative fields. In fact, my very point was that China’s modern day rise in STEM was fairly lopsided in favor of physical sciences and engineering and away from life sciences and social sciences. And China’s rise in STEM isn’t even close to having peaked given that it only started around year 2000.

     

    In fact the average performance for Japanese scientists are worse than of Italy or Spain also on hard sciences:
    The data for physiscs:
    Japan 13.19
    Italy 16.44
    Spain 17.58
    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?area=3100
    Or mathematics:
    Japan 6.59
    Italy 8.85
    Spain 8.70
    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?area=2600

    Based on your own links, even some African or Latin countries like Namibia, Bolivia, and Venezuela average substantially higher citations per physics paper than Japan!

    Based on that list and sorted by per capita citations, Japan ranks 60th. If you think Japan is the world’s 60th best physics research nation and behind physics powerhouses like Bolivia and Venezuela, then I truly have a bridge to sell you. Please use your brain here. 🙂

    • Replies: @Marcus D.
    I don’t need Spain to prove the widespread white intelectual superiority.

    Top nations in physics

    1 Switzerland
    2 Denmark
    3 United States
    4 Austria
    5 The Netherlands
    6 England
    7 Germany
    8 Israel
    9 Canada
    10 Sweden
    11 Spain
    12 France
    13 Italy
    14%3D Belgium
    14%3D Australia
    16 Japan
    17 Poland
    18 Brazil
    19 South Korea
    20 India

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/top-nations-in-physics/410295.article
  86. @dfordoom

    However, I don’t agree that letting the left get what it wants, good and hard, is the answer. It’d be like sitting back and letting the Bolsheviks or Mao’s people get their way.
     
    You don't give them what they want. You give them what they claim to want.

    When feminists bleat about equality you say OK, we're going to eliminate all women's sports. In order to demonstrate how equal they are in future women tennis players etc will compete on level terms with men.

    When liberals whine about reparations or how necessary AA is in academia you tell them they're right but they haven't gone far enough. As reparations for slavery all white university professors should be immediately fired and replaced by People of Color. Let's see how white liberal professors like them apples.

    Yeah, but what I and Mr. Handle were both saying is that these people don’t care about your or ANY logic, even if you try to use their logic against them. They will find a way to make things go the way they want. For example, at the universities, those white professors, along with the other-colored SJWs will come to an agreement – probably the usual one : the whites get to hang on, pleasing them in the short term which is all they care about, while the others slowly complete their take-over. Keep in mind who run these places, DforDoom.

    Unplug the TV, don’t go to their movies, and more importantly try to homeschool and keep your kids out of the cntrl-left institutions, along with yourself. When the money stops, it’s all over for these clowns. Peak Stupidity is around the corner.

  87. @Yan Shen
    Based on your own links, even some African or Latin countries like Namibia, Bolivia, and Venezuela average substantially higher citations per physics paper than Japan!

    Based on that list and sorted by per capita citations, Japan ranks 60th. If you think Japan is the world's 60th best physics research nation and behind physics powerhouses like Bolivia and Venezuela, then I truly have a bridge to sell you. Please use your brain here. :)

    I don’t need Spain to prove the widespread white intelectual superiority.

    Top nations in physics

    1 Switzerland
    2 Denmark
    3 United States
    4 Austria
    5 The Netherlands
    6 England
    7 Germany
    8 Israel
    9 Canada
    10 Sweden
    11 Spain
    12 France
    13 Italy
    14%3D Belgium
    14%3D Australia
    16 Japan
    17 Poland
    18 Brazil
    19 South Korea
    20 India

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/top-nations-in-physics/410295.article

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Sorry man you're too dumb to even talk to at this point and really are just doing your best to reinforce white American intellectual mediocrity. Any list that ranks Spain above Japan and places Japan right near civilizational powerhouses like Brazil in physics basically has no real value. Use your brain. Observe the real world. You're basically proving yourself to be a greater embarrassment with each post.
  88. @Marcus D.
    I don’t need Spain to prove the widespread white intelectual superiority.

    Top nations in physics

    1 Switzerland
    2 Denmark
    3 United States
    4 Austria
    5 The Netherlands
    6 England
    7 Germany
    8 Israel
    9 Canada
    10 Sweden
    11 Spain
    12 France
    13 Italy
    14%3D Belgium
    14%3D Australia
    16 Japan
    17 Poland
    18 Brazil
    19 South Korea
    20 India

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/top-nations-in-physics/410295.article

    Sorry man you’re too dumb to even talk to at this point and really are just doing your best to reinforce white American intellectual mediocrity. Any list that ranks Spain above Japan and places Japan right near civilizational powerhouses like Brazil in physics basically has no real value. Use your brain. Observe the real world. You’re basically proving yourself to be a greater embarrassment with each post.

  89. Any list that ranks Spain above Japan and places Japan right near civilizational powerhouses like Brazil in physics basically has no real value.

    Sorry man, the data don’t care about your fellings. That’s the place deserved for Asians :))

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