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New PISA Test Results

Screenshot 2016-12-06 03.18.50

This table is sorted in order of scores on Science, the subject most emphasized in this 3 year period.

Here’s the big PDF of data.

Argentina for the win!

In the past, the Argentines always complained that they were doing a better job of rounding up their dimmest 15 year olds to take the international PISA exam sponsored by the OECD than some countries they could mention, cough Mexico cough, which was dragging their scores down relative to other countries, cough Vietnam cough. I don’t know what the Argentines did to better manipulate their sample this time, but it definitely worked.

Here’s a graph of the Science results (this was the year PISA emphasizes Science), with a column of what percentage of the expected 15 year olds weren’t tested:

pisa science 2

The US missed 16% of its expected coverage, which is kind of lousy. Not as bad as Vietnam (51% missing), Mexico (38%), or China (36%), but still …

Here are my posts about older PISA tests, such as 2012 and 2009.

India doesn’t take the PISA test. It tried it out on a couple of states a number of years ago and did very badly.

China is rolling the PISA out to more provinces. It did pretty well this time, but not as well as last time when it reported only the Shanghai results and came in first in the world. China’s coverage in those provinces is 3rd World level too (missing 36% of 15-year-olds). So, we’ll see…

In the past, I’ve broken out American scores by race: Asian Americans typically have done about as well as the wealthy Asian countries; white Americans do better than many European countries but not as well as Finland; Latino Americans do better than Latin countries (although Argentina boosted its scores enormously this time for as of yet unexplained reasons); African Americans do better than any African countries and most West Indian countries that bother to take the PISA test (although Trinidad is climbing). The US government usually posts that data buried in documents here.

Screenshot 2016-12-06 05.55.02

So, in Science, white Americans (531) scored like Finland, black Americans (433) scored about a standard deviation lower like Cyprus, Hispanic Americans (470) scored between Iceland and Israel, Asian Americans (525) scored like Vietnam (although Vietnam’s score is likely inflated by dropping low scorers from having to take the test), and Multiracial Americans (503) score like Ireland.

Similarly, here’s my graph of the 2012 results (averaging the three subjects equally), showing American groups (red) in racial context:

Note, this colorful graph is for 2012, not for the new 2015 results. Also, they made some scaling changes between 2012 and 2015, so the scores from this 2012 graph aren’t exactly comparable to the scores from 2015.

One question I’ve never seen an answer to is how hard different countries try on this low-stakes test and how much does it matter. One past report included a notation that Austria’s score that year was probably artificially low because teachers were striking and may have told students to do badly on the test to stick it to management. Other countries might give rousing pep talks. Who knows?

Here’s Anatoly Karlin’s comments on the PISA results at the Unz Review.

 
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235 Comments to "New PISA Test Results"
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  1. 4 provinces of China perform worse than I thought. Guangdong province may be lagging behind.
    Vietnam is a surprise.
    Where is India?

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    China's humiliating data represent about 270m people. Have to see the detail provincial breakup days later...

    But Panda suspects that Shanghai could still be No 1 if standalone beating Singapore, with Jiangsu inside top 3, Beijing about top 5. All three would be ahead of Taiwan. Almost for sure that the Cantonese dragged everyone down... note that China's low achivers data stood at stunning 10.9% compared to similar ranking countries.

    In Chinese Gaokao, Jiangsu has been top notch, always. Shanghai and Beijing have been about average, with Guangdong being below average. The top achivers in Gaokao have been historically Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Hubei, Hunan, Hebei, Henan, Shangdong,etc Eastern and Central provinces.

    Panda would like to see Vietnam's participation ratio stats before anything.

    Years ago India has decidied to drop off PISA for the foreseeable future.

    , @namae nanka
    http://blogs.economictimes.indiatimes.com/therovingeye/pisa-china-tops-india-has-fled-the-race/
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  2. Steve I have to commend your blogging dedication. It’s what 3:00 in the morning in California?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I am in London and he even beats me to it.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/803819002694922241

    Heckuva job, Steve! :)
  3. Someone who has the time should regress score difference 2016 vs 2012 on % immigrants age 18 in 2016 vs. 2012. Could do it for each of the three score differences (reading might give a different regression coefficient than maths and science). Is 18 the usual age for these tests?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Age 15.

    The PISA people usually break out immigrants and children of immigrants directly in the tests.

  4. @Peter Johnson
    Someone who has the time should regress score difference 2016 vs 2012 on % immigrants age 18 in 2016 vs. 2012. Could do it for each of the three score differences (reading might give a different regression coefficient than maths and science). Is 18 the usual age for these tests?

    Age 15.

    The PISA people usually break out immigrants and children of immigrants directly in the tests.

    Read More
  5. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I am deeply suspicious of the UK’s ranking.
    And I am also puzzled by Israel’s modest score.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AlexV
    You need to split Jews and Arabs (25% of population). Jews will be ranked #12 in reading #20 in mathematics and #30 in science, while Arabs will be below #60 (together with other Arab countries). The analysis is http://go.ynet.co.il/pic/news/pisa_2015.pdf (in Hebrew) , the key is page 15.
    , @rye
    Self identified Ashkenazim make up less than 40% of Israel's population, genetically pure Ashkenazim are even fewer.
    , @Lurker
    Like the US, the UK score needs to be broken down by race.
    , @andy
    people in the Us think Israel and they believe they are all Ashkenazi Jews. Actually, Israel in this sense is quite "diverse", you have Arabs, Sephardic Jews, Ethiopian Jews, and so forth, and their IQ is quite below that of the Ashkenazis.
    , @Scott34323432
    Israelis of European heritage score above average for Europe, but they represent only half of Israel. Arab Israelis, African Jews, and Jews of Middle Eastern heritage all drag down the average significantly.
  6. Have to admit I’m a bit miffed about my country’s results. At least it’s trending upwards. Won’t look for excuses (cough poverty, cough iodine deficiency, cough large unreported Roma population). Hope we do better. Then again, I’ll settle for mediocre scores in exchange for more assabiyah. It might be a better mix of traits for group survival in this day and age.

    Can someone more knowledgeable please tell me how these tests are conducted? I don’t remember Pisa examinations ever coming up during my schooling. I graduated from high school in 2006, so I would have caught an examination, no? I was a small town boy, but I was in the best class of the best high school in town for pre-STEM (we were arranged by test scores after 8th grade and given a harder workload), so I would assume someone would have at least padded the results by including us in the testing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @krakonos
    At least your country is moving up.
    Our country has been going gown since 2003 and no improvement in sight. We used to be above OECD average (in some disciplines even significantly), now, sadly, we are below OECD average.
    Start of the decline mysteriously coincides with the fall of communism. Children born after the fall are doing worse each passing year. Almost as if the fall marked change in reproductive patterns. All blame schools or society, not the most important asset - children, though.
  7. @Bobbii
    4 provinces of China perform worse than I thought. Guangdong province may be lagging behind.
    Vietnam is a surprise.
    Where is India?

    China’s humiliating data represent about 270m people. Have to see the detail provincial breakup days later…

    But Panda suspects that Shanghai could still be No 1 if standalone beating Singapore, with Jiangsu inside top 3, Beijing about top 5. All three would be ahead of Taiwan. Almost for sure that the Cantonese dragged everyone down… note that China’s low achivers data stood at stunning 10.9% compared to similar ranking countries.

    In Chinese Gaokao, Jiangsu has been top notch, always. Shanghai and Beijing have been about average, with Guangdong being below average. The top achivers in Gaokao have been historically Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Hubei, Hunan, Hebei, Henan, Shangdong,etc Eastern and Central provinces.

    Panda would like to see Vietnam’s participation ratio stats before anything.

    Years ago India has decidied to drop off PISA for the foreseeable future.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bobbii
    I think Guangdong province could be lower than Vietnam in every field.
  8. Argentina once again went way beyond the call of duty – 104% coverage (pp. 46).

    Read More
  9. @DukeofQin
    Steve I have to commend your blogging dedication. It's what 3:00 in the morning in California?

    I am in London and he even beats me to it.

    Heckuva job, Steve! :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Simplicity
    What do you think about India's rank if India took part in?
    , @Father O'Hara
    On the day of PISA,the most dangerous place to be is between Great Helmsman and his PC!
  10. For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bobbii
    You should visite Silicon Valley to see how white it is.
    , @PandaAtWar
    Perhaps we morons have smaller mouthes and bigger brains than you morons? ROFL


    http://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2015/article_0016.html

    , @hhd
    I consider Jews Caucasian, unless you are arguing that they are part of the mongoloid race?
    , @melendwyr
    Well, their cultures don't reward rebellion, or even sticking out. And it's been *suggested* that generations of culling rebels and rewarding conformists may have resulted in people that are bright but strongly motivated to follow the crowd. Nuture or nature? (As our host keeps pointing out, the two can't be easily separated.)

    Intelligence is a behavior, rather than a trait. Behaviors require multiple kinds of capability; any missing elements means the behavior doesn't manifest.
    , @Jack D
    Yes, keep telling yourself that while Asians eat your lunch. If only the folks at Toyota, Lenovo, Samsung, etc. had had some innovative capacity they wouldn't have been crushed by Chrysler, IBM and Motorola as they were in your alternate universe.

    Let's assume that what you are saying is totally true - Asians have ZERO innovative capacity. And yet they have managed to build wealthy societies and enormous industrial capacity in a relatively short amount of time. Toyota sells more vehicles than GM and Hyundai (which never made a single automobile before the 1970s) outsells Ford. So innovative capacity must not be a precondition to industrialization and commercial success. Maybe they do it just by stealing Western ideas and technology, but they do it. The Soviets tried to get by on IP theft and it didn't work nearly as well for them, so maybe the Asians have some quality that make up for their lack of innovative capacity (0r maybe it's not really zero after all). Edison (who knew something about such things) said that genius was 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Maybe the Asians are more willing to do the perspiration stuff than we are nowadays?
    , @WhatEvvs
    I don't know what "cogelite" means but I get your point, and I reject it. The Japanese are marvelously creative people. We steal a lot of our pop culture from them, without attribution.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    Maybe what you said applies to the Chinese, but I wouldn't rule out the creative capacity of the Japanese being on par with Westerners. Consider that all of their strides to catch up to the West have come within the last 150 years. Before that they were a backwards nation that consciously chose to isolate itself. South Korea has undergone the same rate of advancement as well. Shortly after the war they were basically on par with the Latin American Banana Republics.
    , @Sam Patch
    In "A Troublesome Inheritance" Wade suggests the lack of innovative creativity by East Asians might be explained by a thousand-year-long Imperial Exam System that emphasized rote memorization etc.
  11. @PandaAtWar
    China's humiliating data represent about 270m people. Have to see the detail provincial breakup days later...

    But Panda suspects that Shanghai could still be No 1 if standalone beating Singapore, with Jiangsu inside top 3, Beijing about top 5. All three would be ahead of Taiwan. Almost for sure that the Cantonese dragged everyone down... note that China's low achivers data stood at stunning 10.9% compared to similar ranking countries.

    In Chinese Gaokao, Jiangsu has been top notch, always. Shanghai and Beijing have been about average, with Guangdong being below average. The top achivers in Gaokao have been historically Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Hubei, Hunan, Hebei, Henan, Shangdong,etc Eastern and Central provinces.

    Panda would like to see Vietnam's participation ratio stats before anything.

    Years ago India has decidied to drop off PISA for the foreseeable future.

    I think Guangdong province could be lower than Vietnam in every field.

    Read More
  12. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    UK regional breakdown.

    In maths, Wales scored 478, below England and Northern Ireland which both scored 493 and Scotland which scored 491
    In reading, Wales once again came last in the UK with 478, England scored 500, Northern Ireland 497 and Scotland 493.
    In science, Wales scored 485, England scored 512, Northern Ireland 500 and Scotland 497.

    By ethnic group in England (UK total)

    Reading
    497 Other
    496 Mixed
    475 Black
    476 Asian (British meaning so think Pakistani. East Asians are explicitly included in “Other”)
    499 White

    Math (same order)
    490
    489
    462
    468
    493

    Science
    503
    508
    475
    481
    514

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I am surprised with the Welsh result.
    Traditionally, in Britain, the Welsh have had a reputation for quick wittedness and sharp practice, something like the Jews of Britain. Also traditionally, the Welsh had a reputation for a great aptitude and love for scholarship. Probably no other region of Britain has, over the centuries, contributed on a per capita basis more teachers and professors than the Welsh.
    , @Anonymous
    The current 'trendy' meme in the UK is to do down schoolchildren of the 'white working class' as being congenitally dumb, whilst boosting black and subcon children.
  13. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    You should visite Silicon Valley to see how white it is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Federalist
    You should visit Silicon Valley to see where it is.
  14. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    Perhaps we morons have smaller mouthes and bigger brains than you morons? ROFL

    http://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2015/article_0016.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Granted patents are a terrible proxy for innovation; applications for patents even less so. Examiners are motivated to process patents as quickly as possible, and even then, there is no requirement that a patented invention actually function, so long as it is novel, not obvious, and so on. One may patent a set of canvas wings designed to be strapped to the arms, of the sort Wile E. Coyote commonly employed. A better test of a patent's true value is in records of its litigation, not its prosecution. Of course, only a small fraction of applications for patents are granted, and a much smaller fraction of those are litigated. The most vlauable innovations, if patented at all (many are preserved as trade secrets) are amicably practiced, sold, or licensed precisely because they are indisputably innovative inventions not overly derivative from prior art.

    tl;dr: Panda may be a smartass, but maybe not so smart.
  15. I’m glad to see United States results separated by race. I have always felt that all the dire comparisons to other countries were the result of lumping American white people with all the American riffaff. This proves my suspicion.

    Also, I still strongly suspect places like China leave out literally millions of their peasants, thus skewing their scores tremendously.

    Hardly any other nation contends with the variety that mine does, and few if any of those include all their people effectively.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Panda strongly suspects that you confuse the relationship amongst concepts of peasants, literacy, education and resilience of peasants' children, their avg iq and historic achievements in China, thanks to the influenece of deeply-rooted traditional/modern Western/English caste system.
    , @Lagertha
    Buzz, you'll be happy to know that last year, my New England HS 15-year-olds, scored as high as Finland's 15-year-olds (and Korea/Singapore). In fact, several HS's in CT & MA scored up there with the top 5. Our principal and superintendent are youngish men who always want to get this info out to all the high-strung, uber-competitive parents in our community. I...I only make sure my sons had a great breakfast! There's nothing you can do to prepare for these tests, in my opinion.
  16. @Anonymous
    I am deeply suspicious of the UK's ranking.
    And I am also puzzled by Israel's modest score.

    You need to split Jews and Arabs (25% of population). Jews will be ranked #12 in reading #20 in mathematics and #30 in science, while Arabs will be below #60 (together with other Arab countries). The analysis is http://go.ynet.co.il/pic/news/pisa_2015.pdf (in Hebrew) , the key is page 15.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    If you could split the Israeli Jewish population into European (Ashkenazi plus true (Spanish origin) Sephardi) vs. the rest (Yemenite, Ethiopian, etc.) the European Jews would rank even higher. Of course the secular European Jews have the same cat lady tendencies as found in other Western countries and are in process of eliminating themselves from the gene pool.

    Israeli scores also depressed by the large ultra-Orthodox population who are not interested in secular education. However, this population is really quite intelligent (and has a high birthrate) - if they ever decided to direct their intelligence in a secular direction instead of Talmudic analysis, they could do quite well. The great grandfathers of all the secular Jewish geniuses of the 20th century would have looked just like one of these guys with bushy beards and sidelocks.
    , @Daniel H
    A quick back of the envelope calculation of the weighted averages of the Jewish and Arab populations indicates that Jews scored approximately 486 in the science PISA.

    How?
    Jordan's score (proxy for Palestinians) 409
    Israel's score (includes 25% Palestinian population) 467

    Calculate: .25 * 409 + .75 * (X, Jewish Score) = 467

    X = (467-.25*409)/.75= 486

    Not a surprising result, considering that more than half of Israel's population derive from Arab, middle eastern lands, where they had resided for eons, with no European admixture.

  17. @Anatoly Karlin
    I am in London and he even beats me to it.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/803819002694922241

    Heckuva job, Steve! :)

    What do you think about India’s rank if India took part in?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Unzerker
    When India did participate it came dead last.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Very low.

    Actually a couple of Indian states did take part in PISA 2009+, Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh.

    Both are above the Indian average in terms of socio-economic development, Tamil Nadu I recall quite substantially, but their average PISA-adjusted IQ was 75.
  18. Argentina only included those schools in the capital (CABA, for Autonomous City of Buenos Aires), the richest and more educated part of the country. The test scores for the rest of the country were invalidated as the government tampered with the sample, selecting only those schools that have done well on previous years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dumbo
    This.

    It is also arguably the whitest part of the country, although I am not 100% sure. The North tends to be more indigenous. But Buenos Aires attracts many immigrants from Bolivia, Peru, etc.
    , @Jack D
    Argentinians like to imagine themselves to be 100% European but outside of Buenos Aires with its large immigrant population (that arrived at the same time as the Ellis Island era in the US) it's not really true.

    In the end, you can predict PISA scores pretty well if you know the (true) population genetics of a country.
  19. @Anonymous
    I am deeply suspicious of the UK's ranking.
    And I am also puzzled by Israel's modest score.

    Self identified Ashkenazim make up less than 40% of Israel’s population, genetically pure Ashkenazim are even fewer.

    Read More
  20. Ok. So what’s the deal with Israel? Shouldn’t they be scoring much higher? Or are all the smart Jews living here and in Canada?

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Ok. So what’s the deal with Israel? Shouldn’t they be scoring much higher? Or are all the smart Jews living here and in Canada?
     
    Intellectual laziness might also be a factor. Israeli Jews tend to be susceptible to Levantine lunkheadism....
    , @Mr. Brown
    Jews are only 75% of Israel's population -- the other 25% consists of Israeli Arabs who presumably score like the Jordanians just did. That fact, in itself, explains it away.
    , @Jack D
    The kind of Jews you think of as being "smart Jews" are mostly Ashkenazi Jews (from E. Europe) and a small % of Sephardi Jews (whose ancestors lived in Spain). Basically they are an (especially smart) subgroup of European people - outside of E. Asians, most of the smart people in the world are of European origin. They do very well on the PISA as you might expect (although in Israel some of this group are ultra Orthodox religious fanatics who do not emphasize secular education and either don't take the PISA or do poorly on it). But this group accounts for less than 1/2 the Israeli population. The rest are either Arabs or Arab Jews from Yemen who have the same genetics as other South Arabians (some African admixture) or Ethiopian "Jews", etc. who score exactly how you would expect them to score based on their genetics.
  21. I’m surprised that japan is still doing so well, assuming they are not gaming the system, which is a pretty good assumption (Japan does a good job of administering tests). Due to demographics, the number of 17 year olds is going down, meaning the competition to get into university, even A-/B+ universities, is highly reduced, and the kids know it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    And you seriously think they don't adjust placements after demography?

    P.S. Japan has also seen a significant increase in foreign students over the past 10-15 years.
  22. Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    As it happens, the Estonian government published a breakdown of their results. There aren't many non-European immigrants in Estonia so only ethnic split is between Estonians and the large Russian minority.

    Regionally, the top performer among provinces is the island of Hiiumaa in northwestern Estonia: Science 575, Math 549. It's the county with the highest percentage of ethnic Estonians (>98% according to wiki) but has a very small total population, about 9,000.

    Weakest performer is Ida-Viru in the northeast, bordering Russia and also the most Russian (>70%) county: Science 494 Math 491. Despite the huge gap, that's about the same result as Scotland gets. Both Russians and Estonians do much worse here than in the capital.

    Harju, the largest county, housing the capital and over 40% of Estonia's population (61% Estonian 31% Russian): Science 542 Math 529

    Ida-Viru and Harju are the only counties which aren't >80% ethnic Estonian.

    National science average: Estonian 544 Russian 500
    National math average: Estonian 526 Russian 497

    Capital (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 545, Russian 508
    Rural (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 514, Russian 491

  23. @Simplicity
    What do you think about India's rank if India took part in?

    When India did participate it came dead last.

    Read More
  24. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    I consider Jews Caucasian, unless you are arguing that they are part of the mongoloid race?

    Read More
  25. Trump should tweet this New York Times story and humiliate the companies that discriminate Black Americans in favor of illegal immigrants.

    Lawsuit Alleges Racial Discrimination at National Job Agency

    A group of African-American workers filed a class-action lawsuit in federal court on Tuesday against a nationwide job placement agency and several of its clients, accusing them of discriminating against black applicants by favoring Hispanic applicants.

    http://nyti.ms/2gLayTx

    Read More
  26. 1) Argentina no longer means Argentina, it’s just the city of Buenos Aires (CABA – Ciudad Autónoma de Buenos Aires) . The results for the rest of the country were invalidated because of cheating:

    http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/Pruebas-PISA-Argentina-principal-educativa_0_1700229967.html

    2) It’s not about rounding up missing schoolchildren, if that many went missing from taking the test the results would be annulled as they were in Argentina, rather in some countries vast numbers of 15 year olds don’t attend school and PISA is a test designed for those attending school.

    3) The glass half full interpretation is that as Mexico’s share of 15 year olds that attend school has increased its scores have remained roughly static (though obviously crappy)

    Read More
  27. @Buzz Mohawk
    I'm glad to see United States results separated by race. I have always felt that all the dire comparisons to other countries were the result of lumping American white people with all the American riffaff. This proves my suspicion.

    Also, I still strongly suspect places like China leave out literally millions of their peasants, thus skewing their scores tremendously.

    Hardly any other nation contends with the variety that mine does, and few if any of those include all their people effectively.

    Panda strongly suspects that you confuse the relationship amongst concepts of peasants, literacy, education and resilience of peasants’ children, their avg iq and historic achievements in China, thanks to the influenece of deeply-rooted traditional/modern Western/English caste system.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Buzz strongly suspects that you are an apologist for a feudal society that has been backwards for millenia and has grown into the world's largest cheap labor pool thanks to the influence of deeply-rooted greed in the traditional/modern Western/English caste system.
  28. @Simplicity
    What do you think about India's rank if India took part in?

    Very low.

    Actually a couple of Indian states did take part in PISA 2009+, Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh.

    Both are above the Indian average in terms of socio-economic development, Tamil Nadu I recall quite substantially, but their average PISA-adjusted IQ was 75.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Apparently, Tamil Nadu is where all the 'smart' Indians are supposed to come from.
  29. I just wrote up my comments on PISA 2015 here:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/pisa-2015/

    (1) China disappointed relative to its leaked 2009 performance. Not only was coverage low, but at least three of the four provinces tested – Shanghai, Beijing, Jiangsu, and Guangdong – are cognitively elite.

    (2) Russia improved, probably on account of the unfortunate 1990s cohort now passing PISA-testing age.

    Read More
  30. Maybe only the ”lower class” argentinians has done this tests or my pet-hypothesis, argentinian education started to give relevance to the PISA tests.

    Singapore look like a ”reasonable” Monaco, many millionaires per capita, a outlier city-state, any doubt about it, and must be treated like that, a outlier-exception.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    No.

    Until quite recently Singapore had a low per capita GDP and was mostly working-class.
  31. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    You can deduce Indian score from UAE, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago.
    If you look at UAE and Qatar, immigrants vs native score in PISA document. Immigrants score 77 points higher at both the places.
    50 pc population in UAE is Indian, mostly migrant workers to do construction jobs and they are inbred Muslims.
    10 pc in Qatar is Indian.
    I would expect Indian score to be 475 in UAE and Qatar based on PISA data.
    Trinidad Indians were brought as slave labourers in British empire. They score 30 points higher at 450 score.
    As they are lower end of Indian population, I would expect india to score much higher, similar to Indian SAT, GMAT and GRE score which is much higher than white Americans on maths and less in English. All these samples cover a big population and as most of Indian university students are anyways lower castes who get selected for affirmative action, the selection bias in Indian GMAT, GRE and SAT score is far less than any other nation.
    However to do PISA in India, you need a language to administer the test. People speak 100 languages in india and are educated in that many languages. So, PISA had to choose English as language of administration in previous round of testing which was disastrous and was similar to conducting PISA in German on US population which will release rock bottom results.

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    • Replies: @DukeofQin
    Can't say anything about Indo Trinidadians but I can say to you that the Indian students in the UAE and Qatar being tested are not anywhere near the lower end of the Indian talent pool. Quite the opposite in fact, they come from India's socio-economic elite. What you are ignoring is the bifurcated demographic structure in the region. It's true that most Indians working in the middle east are construction workers and such and little more than slaves, but there is a layer of middle class (i.e. accountants) janissaries working there as well because the Gulf Arabs are just that damn lazy. What you are also forgetting is that the construction workers that make up the majority of subcontinentals there are pretty much slaves and have a slave like fertility rate of zero. There are no children of them to be tested because the Muslims are cunning enough to not let them breed nor allow them to import their children and families. The only Indians with children in the Gulf are basically of the English literate H1B types imported by Western multinationals, akin to what you get in the US and Canada.
  32. @Andy
    Argentina only included those schools in the capital (CABA, for Autonomous City of Buenos Aires), the richest and more educated part of the country. The test scores for the rest of the country were invalidated as the government tampered with the sample, selecting only those schools that have done well on previous years.

    This.

    It is also arguably the whitest part of the country, although I am not 100% sure. The North tends to be more indigenous. But Buenos Aires attracts many immigrants from Bolivia, Peru, etc.

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    • Replies: @andy
    A large number of people living in Buenos Aires have Amerindian blood, but their children go to school in greater Buenos Aires, the outskirts of the city. In the city itself, where the test was taken, the children are mostly of european descent (mostly spanish, italian, and some jewish).
  33. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    Well, their cultures don’t reward rebellion, or even sticking out. And it’s been *suggested* that generations of culling rebels and rewarding conformists may have resulted in people that are bright but strongly motivated to follow the crowd. Nuture or nature? (As our host keeps pointing out, the two can’t be easily separated.)

    Intelligence is a behavior, rather than a trait. Behaviors require multiple kinds of capability; any missing elements means the behavior doesn’t manifest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Intelligence is a behavior, rather than a trait. Behaviors require multiple kinds of capability; any missing elements means the behavior doesn’t manifest."

    Intelligence, governed by many genes acting in concert, is clearly a trait that is reflective of one's behavior. It is a set of skills and abilities, some of which are inborn and some of which are taught and honed, used to select and execute at will a specific course of action to be effective with people and situations.
  34. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @John Achterhof
    Estonia is looking good.

    http://truenomads.com/wp-content/uploads/estonia-estonia-estonian-girls-heaven-on-earth-demotivational-poster-1275750796.jpg

    As it happens, the Estonian government published a breakdown of their results. There aren’t many non-European immigrants in Estonia so only ethnic split is between Estonians and the large Russian minority.

    Regionally, the top performer among provinces is the island of Hiiumaa in northwestern Estonia: Science 575, Math 549. It’s the county with the highest percentage of ethnic Estonians (>98% according to wiki) but has a very small total population, about 9,000.

    Weakest performer is Ida-Viru in the northeast, bordering Russia and also the most Russian (>70%) county: Science 494 Math 491. Despite the huge gap, that’s about the same result as Scotland gets. Both Russians and Estonians do much worse here than in the capital.

    Harju, the largest county, housing the capital and over 40% of Estonia’s population (61% Estonian 31% Russian): Science 542 Math 529

    Ida-Viru and Harju are the only counties which aren’t >80% ethnic Estonian.

    National science average: Estonian 544 Russian 500
    National math average: Estonian 526 Russian 497

    Capital (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 545, Russian 508
    Rural (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 514, Russian 491

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    • Replies: @CM
    Jesus Christ the Estonians are impressive! It seems like such an impressive country cursed by bad geography. Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren't neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.

    Furthermore, Estonia lost its Baltic German community, which seem like a highly accomplished and more intelligent subset of Germans, mostly descendents of German merchants. Many famous scientists and intellectuals came from the Baltic German community.
    , @Boomstick
    Hiiumaa looks like it's rural, which is a switch for high scoring areas. Usually the high scorers are urban, or a rural area in which a university has been plopped down. (There's a land grant university effect in the US. Enormous State U was sited on some likely farm land to provide a practical education to the state residents in 1870, and 150 years later it's a leading research institution with smart children of faculty driving up test scores. )
  35. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    If you read PISA result book, difference between immigrant vs non immigrant students in science.
    Highest is china which is 135.
    Lowest is Qatar which is -77.
    So, immigrant kids in china’s provinces scored more than one standard deviation below.
    While immigrants in UAE and Qatar, 50 pc Indians who migrate to work as labourers score way above locals.

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  36. I really hope we see an update to the famed GDP/cap chart (or as I like to call it: THE chart)

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  37. It would be interesting to know which groups (e.g., Filipino) in the USA are in the “Asian” category.

    It would also be interesting to know if the Han, Korean, and Japaneses in America score the same as their relatives in Asia.

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  38. Same comment I left on Karlin’s blog:

    It seems like the scale has been compressed. In 2012 there were 11 (6) scores over 540 (550) across the three categories (excluding Shanghai), while in 2015 there are 5 (2). Plus, I think some of the movement is essentially random; I doubt that Korea or Hong Kong have actually become stupider.

    Also, Taiwan’s 2015 reading score is 497, not significantly different than the OECD average(493), while in 2012 it was 523, significantly higher than the OECD average of 496. However, the three year trend is +1 point, which contradicts the apparent decline. Does anyone have an explanation?

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    • Replies: @Klon
    Here is a link to a comment with some additional numbers. Performance of the top countries has seen a sizeable decline, or the scoring was changed.
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/pisa-2015/#comment-1674082
    , @DukeofQin
    Reading through the appendix of the PISA report now, but actually there was scaling changes made between the 2012 and 2015 PISA tests that are impacting scores. Some countries are benefitting from this while others are being hurt, Taiwan's scores (or at least the Math section is) are one of those that actually didn't change but because of scaling differences are being reported lower than previous years. I also noticed this for US reading scores which were significantly higher in 2012 than this time around. So direct comparisons between 2012 and 2015 scores should have an asterix, but comparisons between 2015 countries are OK. (see page 305 of the appendix)
  39. White Americans beat Asian Americans? Too much immigration from locations in Asia other than China, Taiwan, Japan and Korea watering down the scores?

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    You'll have to ask who are officially included in this mistically fantastic notion of "Asian Americans" indeed apart from the Han Chinese, Koreans and Japanese?
  40. @Anon
    As it happens, the Estonian government published a breakdown of their results. There aren't many non-European immigrants in Estonia so only ethnic split is between Estonians and the large Russian minority.

    Regionally, the top performer among provinces is the island of Hiiumaa in northwestern Estonia: Science 575, Math 549. It's the county with the highest percentage of ethnic Estonians (>98% according to wiki) but has a very small total population, about 9,000.

    Weakest performer is Ida-Viru in the northeast, bordering Russia and also the most Russian (>70%) county: Science 494 Math 491. Despite the huge gap, that's about the same result as Scotland gets. Both Russians and Estonians do much worse here than in the capital.

    Harju, the largest county, housing the capital and over 40% of Estonia's population (61% Estonian 31% Russian): Science 542 Math 529

    Ida-Viru and Harju are the only counties which aren't >80% ethnic Estonian.

    National science average: Estonian 544 Russian 500
    National math average: Estonian 526 Russian 497

    Capital (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 545, Russian 508
    Rural (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 514, Russian 491

    Jesus Christ the Estonians are impressive! It seems like such an impressive country cursed by bad geography. Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren’t neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.

    Furthermore, Estonia lost its Baltic German community, which seem like a highly accomplished and more intelligent subset of Germans, mostly descendents of German merchants. Many famous scientists and intellectuals came from the Baltic German community.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren’t neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.
     
    Probably not much.

    Finland managed to avoid going Red and hasn't generated many Great People, either due to personality reasons or a lower intelligence S.D. I suspect the same applies to their close relatives the Eesti.

    When I think famous Estonians the first four who come to mind are Mikhail Tal (chess), Sergey Dovlatov (excellent writer, but who's connection with Estonia was fleeting), and Jaan Tallinn (Skype inventor). So only 1/3 of them are Estonians.

    I recall that the richest Estonian is an ethnic Russian.
    , @Lagertha
    So proud of my Finns! and Estonia! The Finnish & Estonian people were originally the same tribe. Their language is very similar. Estonia has Russians (Soviets sent Russians there by the droves during the Cold War) but not many migrants/refugees at all. Estonians came in huge numbers to work in Finland after the USSR collapse since they could get by with the language.

    Now, I know I'll get pummeled by all you guys, but I have always heard that the Big League complicated Finnish/Estonian language (no regular verbs/no gender; 13 cases; words that can be over 28 letters long; and the "shape-shifting" of meaning of words if other words are added to a word) is somehow connected to the High IQ of ethnic Finns & Estonians. And, of course, the "Arctic Culture," that I mentioned waaaay back.

    Of course, a diet of mostly fish has been noted; and root vegetables/berries. Junk food never really existed before the 60's. I tasted my first potato chips in 1965. However, to this day, nutrition is an obsession in Finnish families (and Estonian) even households of modest means. People cook from scratch a lot. Something like a "Lunchables," would never sell in Finnish supermarkets. Also, the non-GMO, low to no preservatives in food is common (chickens are very small). I always lose weight there, like 5-10 pounds even if I do eat sausages, cheese (so good) bread, and more bread, the delicious pastries, and tasty beer. I think I need to have lunch now!

    Lastly, there is no reading and math preparation until kids reach 7 and go to 1st grade. Pre-schools are universal, but it is all like the Piaget style: learn through play; outdoors in snow, included. And mandatory naps...I still remember that since I suffer from intermittent insomnia! Lots of arts and crafts and building toys. I still have my place-mats, embroidered napkins and potholders.
    , @Anon
    They had a much poorer start compared to West Europe being part of the Russian Empire during the early 20th century (like Finland). Might take another century for them to take off. Even the Japanese underperformed their smarts in highest levels of science until the 2000's when the Nobels started rolling.

    @Lurker

    UK result has a racial breakdown. Some numbers are already in the comments above, here's the relevant government report

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/574925/PISA-2015_England_Report.pdf

  41. @Eric Ruttencutter
    Ok. So what's the deal with Israel? Shouldn't they be scoring much higher? Or are all the smart Jews living here and in Canada?

    Ok. So what’s the deal with Israel? Shouldn’t they be scoring much higher? Or are all the smart Jews living here and in Canada?

    Intellectual laziness might also be a factor. Israeli Jews tend to be susceptible to Levantine lunkheadism….

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of the Israeli population, and a significant proportion of them are ultra-Orthodox who devote minimal resources to secular subjects in their schools. More than half of the Israeli population is made up of Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (from Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, etc.) and Ethiopian Jews. The Arabs and non-European Jews bring down Israel's scores.
  42. OT–Steven Pinker:

    It’s true that the rate of violent crime went up between 2014 and 2015, most likely a consequence of the retreat of active policing since Ferguson. But it’s a small uptick in the context of the massive downward trend since 1992.

    Else, pretty terrible stances in that interview, though he leaves some wiggle room.

    http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/read/steven-pinker-talks-about-donald-trumps-victory-long-term-progress-and-wheth

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    • Replies: @candid_observer
    One of the harder things to take about Pinker is that he is obviously, in certain cases, simply saying things that he can't really believe in order to make life easier for himself. I can sort of see the point of this, in the sense that it allows him to get out a subversive message without being Watsoned out of public view. I take his position on racial differences in IQ -- that there's no good evidence they're genetically based, and some reason to believe that they're not -- as being among those that he trims for public effect. It's very hard to believe that anyone who believes what he does about gender differences will, honestly, in their own minds, dismiss the possibility of genetically based racial differences in IQ as he does. It would be different if he were simply silent on the point -- then we would be able at least to trust what he affirmatively claims.

    But if one grants that he isn't entirely honest in expressing his opinions on such matters, it greatly undermines the value of what he says. Thus, when he says something that conforms to the standard progressive narrative, I have no idea whether to take him seriously or to dismiss it as more distracting BS for public consumption.

    How much of what he says here about Trump is to be taken at face value? I don't know, and I don't know why I should take the trouble to try to figure it out.
  43. @Anon
    You can deduce Indian score from UAE, Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago.
    If you look at UAE and Qatar, immigrants vs native score in PISA document. Immigrants score 77 points higher at both the places.
    50 pc population in UAE is Indian, mostly migrant workers to do construction jobs and they are inbred Muslims.
    10 pc in Qatar is Indian.
    I would expect Indian score to be 475 in UAE and Qatar based on PISA data.
    Trinidad Indians were brought as slave labourers in British empire. They score 30 points higher at 450 score.
    As they are lower end of Indian population, I would expect india to score much higher, similar to Indian SAT, GMAT and GRE score which is much higher than white Americans on maths and less in English. All these samples cover a big population and as most of Indian university students are anyways lower castes who get selected for affirmative action, the selection bias in Indian GMAT, GRE and SAT score is far less than any other nation.
    However to do PISA in India, you need a language to administer the test. People speak 100 languages in india and are educated in that many languages. So, PISA had to choose English as language of administration in previous round of testing which was disastrous and was similar to conducting PISA in German on US population which will release rock bottom results.

    Can’t say anything about Indo Trinidadians but I can say to you that the Indian students in the UAE and Qatar being tested are not anywhere near the lower end of the Indian talent pool. Quite the opposite in fact, they come from India’s socio-economic elite. What you are ignoring is the bifurcated demographic structure in the region. It’s true that most Indians working in the middle east are construction workers and such and little more than slaves, but there is a layer of middle class (i.e. accountants) janissaries working there as well because the Gulf Arabs are just that damn lazy. What you are also forgetting is that the construction workers that make up the majority of subcontinentals there are pretty much slaves and have a slave like fertility rate of zero. There are no children of them to be tested because the Muslims are cunning enough to not let them breed nor allow them to import their children and families. The only Indians with children in the Gulf are basically of the English literate H1B types imported by Western multinationals, akin to what you get in the US and Canada.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That is true.

    The contract laborers, and maids for that matter, are forbidden to bring their families over.
    , @Anon
    Not let them breed ?
    In 21th century, it is illegal if you don't allow someone to breed. I have been to UAE and Indian construction workers settle there, have kids and families.
    You have Indian nurses in UAE and Qatar that are far from elite. Hotel owners and shop keepers who migrate without any college degree.
    Nice try trying to prove ever good score must be done by elites.
    What's your next excuse ? They asked some top university students from india to make a short trip to UAE and take the test with fake names ?
  44. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    Yes, keep telling yourself that while Asians eat your lunch. If only the folks at Toyota, Lenovo, Samsung, etc. had had some innovative capacity they wouldn’t have been crushed by Chrysler, IBM and Motorola as they were in your alternate universe.

    Let’s assume that what you are saying is totally true – Asians have ZERO innovative capacity. And yet they have managed to build wealthy societies and enormous industrial capacity in a relatively short amount of time. Toyota sells more vehicles than GM and Hyundai (which never made a single automobile before the 1970s) outsells Ford. So innovative capacity must not be a precondition to industrialization and commercial success. Maybe they do it just by stealing Western ideas and technology, but they do it. The Soviets tried to get by on IP theft and it didn’t work nearly as well for them, so maybe the Asians have some quality that make up for their lack of innovative capacity (0r maybe it’s not really zero after all). Edison (who knew something about such things) said that genius was 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Maybe the Asians are more willing to do the perspiration stuff than we are nowadays?

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    • Replies: @melendwyr
    I will note that a lot of Asian industrial achievements have been based on working to create small improvements continually, rather than radical new products.

    Which is smart, and has been wildly successful, as Western cultures tend to neglect perfectionism in pursuit of the next new thing.

    But one wonders if there are reasons for that...
    , @BenKenobi
    I agree with you that the Asians are killin' it. But they don't have the cruel yoke of diversity around their necks.

    In the mid 60's both Canada and the US decided to go multicultural. The decision was both a heinous crime and a colossal blunder. That decision was made into the new state religion. Just imagine if all the resources poured into diversity for the past 50 years went instead to, say, the space program? And we had a cohesive nation with a strong identity?

    There's no Uyghurs Lives Matter protesters screaming at professors on any campuses in Beijing.

    Shinto temples in Japan don't seek out the wretched of the Earth for import.

    South Korea doesn't let Abdul plus his 3 wives and 12 children to move in and go on welfare.

    Of course we let all this happen to us because we are simply too nice. But perhaps you've noticed something of a sea change in Western politics recently? Maybe even a watershed moment?
    , @Formerly CARealist
    Do you believe what Edison said? Isn't all genetic as to whether we're geniuses or not?

    99% vs. 1% is a pretty bold statement and wouldn't last more than 5 comments here.
    , @Federalist
    bzb's point is that East Asian countries are poor at making anything new except for making well-engineered derivatives of technologies invented by white people? Aren't Toyota, Lenovo, and Samsung good examples of that?
  45. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anon
    UK regional breakdown.

    In maths, Wales scored 478, below England and Northern Ireland which both scored 493 and Scotland which scored 491
    In reading, Wales once again came last in the UK with 478, England scored 500, Northern Ireland 497 and Scotland 493.
    In science, Wales scored 485, England scored 512, Northern Ireland 500 and Scotland 497.

     

    By ethnic group in England (UK total)

    Reading
    497 Other
    496 Mixed
    475 Black
    476 Asian (British meaning so think Pakistani. East Asians are explicitly included in "Other")
    499 White

    Math (same order)
    490
    489
    462
    468
    493

    Science
    503
    508
    475
    481
    514

    I am surprised with the Welsh result.
    Traditionally, in Britain, the Welsh have had a reputation for quick wittedness and sharp practice, something like the Jews of Britain. Also traditionally, the Welsh had a reputation for a great aptitude and love for scholarship. Probably no other region of Britain has, over the centuries, contributed on a per capita basis more teachers and professors than the Welsh.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Virtually every Englishman can remember having a rather distinctive Welsh schoolmaster.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    By far the most common stereotype of the Welsh I've heard while living in Britain (okay England) is that they are sheep shaggers.
    , @anonymized
    traditionally, Wales is "where the men are men and the sheep are petrified."

    Wales is mostly the butt of jokes about backwater rubes.
    , @Romanian
    Maybe that has resulted in a notable brain drain in favor of areas with more opportunities outside Wales. Cardiff does not strike me as a destination for ambitious Welshmen. Compounded over centuries, the effect would be rather visible.

    Cadfael, the murder solving friar in 12th century England, from a series of novels that have all been adapted for TV with Derek Jacobi in the main role, is a Welshman. He's very smart, too.
    , @anon
    mountains = iodine deficiency

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/two-thirds-teenage-girls-deficient-iodine-1824989
    , @Philip Owen
    The Welsh Assembly avoided reforming the Welsh School system along the same lines as England. Bad teaching is protected. There are no school league tables in Wales. Education in Wales is dominated by the teaching unions and run to give teachers an easier life than those in England. Pupil accomplishment is not a priority in modern Wales. A fact of life under real and existing socialism, far to the right of Corbyn.

    Wales had a formidable track record in education which was based on a lot of smaller grammar or bilateral schools which working class children could access. Places like Aberdare had Boys and Girls Grammar schools. Not only teachers but lawyers (London is packed with older Welsh Barristers) , even engineers. Comprehensive education hasn't delivered for the 11-15 year olds in Wales.

    Also Wales has had higher emigration rates than Ireland since WW2 at least. When anyone bothers to count them, the Welsh are the 2nd biggest immigrant group in England after Poles. 1/3 of British people who identify as Welsh live in South East England. This doesn't count those in Toronto (Canadian Rugby has been improving) or Auckland or running the mines near Johannesburg. When I was in school, everybody in my class had cousins in Australia, Canada or New Zealand - the teachers used to ask us to put up our hands to show it.
  46. @Eric Ruttencutter
    Ok. So what's the deal with Israel? Shouldn't they be scoring much higher? Or are all the smart Jews living here and in Canada?

    Jews are only 75% of Israel’s population — the other 25% consists of Israeli Arabs who presumably score like the Jordanians just did. That fact, in itself, explains it away.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    And Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of Israel's population. More than half of Israel's population is made up of Israeli Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (emigrated to Israel from Middle Eastern countries), and Ethiopian Jews. I am skeptical that the Arabs, Mizrahim and Ethiopian Jews score well on PISA.
  47. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anon
    UK regional breakdown.

    In maths, Wales scored 478, below England and Northern Ireland which both scored 493 and Scotland which scored 491
    In reading, Wales once again came last in the UK with 478, England scored 500, Northern Ireland 497 and Scotland 493.
    In science, Wales scored 485, England scored 512, Northern Ireland 500 and Scotland 497.

     

    By ethnic group in England (UK total)

    Reading
    497 Other
    496 Mixed
    475 Black
    476 Asian (British meaning so think Pakistani. East Asians are explicitly included in "Other")
    499 White

    Math (same order)
    490
    489
    462
    468
    493

    Science
    503
    508
    475
    481
    514

    The current ‘trendy’ meme in the UK is to do down schoolchildren of the ‘white working class’ as being congenitally dumb, whilst boosting black and subcon children.

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  48. @melendwyr
    Well, their cultures don't reward rebellion, or even sticking out. And it's been *suggested* that generations of culling rebels and rewarding conformists may have resulted in people that are bright but strongly motivated to follow the crowd. Nuture or nature? (As our host keeps pointing out, the two can't be easily separated.)

    Intelligence is a behavior, rather than a trait. Behaviors require multiple kinds of capability; any missing elements means the behavior doesn't manifest.

    “Intelligence is a behavior, rather than a trait. Behaviors require multiple kinds of capability; any missing elements means the behavior doesn’t manifest.”

    Intelligence, governed by many genes acting in concert, is clearly a trait that is reflective of one’s behavior. It is a set of skills and abilities, some of which are inborn and some of which are taught and honed, used to select and execute at will a specific course of action to be effective with people and situations.

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    • Replies: @melendwyr

    Intelligence, governed by many genes acting in concert, is clearly a trait that is reflective of one’s behavior.
     
    This is bad writing. Word-salad bad.

    Care to try again?
  49. @Jack D
    Yes, keep telling yourself that while Asians eat your lunch. If only the folks at Toyota, Lenovo, Samsung, etc. had had some innovative capacity they wouldn't have been crushed by Chrysler, IBM and Motorola as they were in your alternate universe.

    Let's assume that what you are saying is totally true - Asians have ZERO innovative capacity. And yet they have managed to build wealthy societies and enormous industrial capacity in a relatively short amount of time. Toyota sells more vehicles than GM and Hyundai (which never made a single automobile before the 1970s) outsells Ford. So innovative capacity must not be a precondition to industrialization and commercial success. Maybe they do it just by stealing Western ideas and technology, but they do it. The Soviets tried to get by on IP theft and it didn't work nearly as well for them, so maybe the Asians have some quality that make up for their lack of innovative capacity (0r maybe it's not really zero after all). Edison (who knew something about such things) said that genius was 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Maybe the Asians are more willing to do the perspiration stuff than we are nowadays?

    I will note that a lot of Asian industrial achievements have been based on working to create small improvements continually, rather than radical new products.

    Which is smart, and has been wildly successful, as Western cultures tend to neglect perfectionism in pursuit of the next new thing.

    But one wonders if there are reasons for that…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Radical new products are a maybe once in a century thing. Daimler invented the IC powered automobile in the 1880s and almost everything since then has been in the nature of improvements. If in that interval (prior to Tesla, and that remains to be seen) you had bet your money on some radical new product in the auto sector, you would have been wrong every time, while the "gradual improvement" crowd, which includes all the Asian manufacturers in the meantime has sold billions of vehicles.

    We don't live in a binary world - Asian manufacturers are not cut off from Western genius (there is a long history in Asia of hiring Western experts which continues to this day and they are not ashamed of it at all ) and Western consumers are not cut off from Asian perfectionism. I don't think this will change under Trump but what will change is that he will drive a harder bargain and not allow us to come up on the short end of trade deals - trade implies a two-way street and not just the US sending all of our money and jobs to Asia.

  50. @Corvinus
    "Intelligence is a behavior, rather than a trait. Behaviors require multiple kinds of capability; any missing elements means the behavior doesn’t manifest."

    Intelligence, governed by many genes acting in concert, is clearly a trait that is reflective of one's behavior. It is a set of skills and abilities, some of which are inborn and some of which are taught and honed, used to select and execute at will a specific course of action to be effective with people and situations.

    Intelligence, governed by many genes acting in concert, is clearly a trait that is reflective of one’s behavior.

    This is bad writing. Word-salad bad.

    Care to try again?

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  51. @AlexV
    You need to split Jews and Arabs (25% of population). Jews will be ranked #12 in reading #20 in mathematics and #30 in science, while Arabs will be below #60 (together with other Arab countries). The analysis is http://go.ynet.co.il/pic/news/pisa_2015.pdf (in Hebrew) , the key is page 15.

    If you could split the Israeli Jewish population into European (Ashkenazi plus true (Spanish origin) Sephardi) vs. the rest (Yemenite, Ethiopian, etc.) the European Jews would rank even higher. Of course the secular European Jews have the same cat lady tendencies as found in other Western countries and are in process of eliminating themselves from the gene pool.

    Israeli scores also depressed by the large ultra-Orthodox population who are not interested in secular education. However, this population is really quite intelligent (and has a high birthrate) – if they ever decided to direct their intelligence in a secular direction instead of Talmudic analysis, they could do quite well. The great grandfathers of all the secular Jewish geniuses of the 20th century would have looked just like one of these guys with bushy beards and sidelocks.

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    • Replies: @WhatEvvs
    "cat lady tendencies as found in other Western countries ...."

    Cat lady tendencies....LOL.

    Western should be Westernized. The president of Taiwan is a classic cat lady. A single never married woman who keeps two cats. She is the youngest of eleven sibs, so I think that there is something going on that Mother Nature is controlling.
  52. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Very low.

    Actually a couple of Indian states did take part in PISA 2009+, Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh.

    Both are above the Indian average in terms of socio-economic development, Tamil Nadu I recall quite substantially, but their average PISA-adjusted IQ was 75.

    Apparently, Tamil Nadu is where all the ‘smart’ Indians are supposed to come from.

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  53. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    I am surprised with the Welsh result.
    Traditionally, in Britain, the Welsh have had a reputation for quick wittedness and sharp practice, something like the Jews of Britain. Also traditionally, the Welsh had a reputation for a great aptitude and love for scholarship. Probably no other region of Britain has, over the centuries, contributed on a per capita basis more teachers and professors than the Welsh.

    Virtually every Englishman can remember having a rather distinctive Welsh schoolmaster.

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  54. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Santoculto
    Maybe only the ''lower class'' argentinians has done this tests or my pet-hypothesis, argentinian education started to give relevance to the PISA tests.

    Singapore look like a ''reasonable'' Monaco, many millionaires per capita, a outlier city-state, any doubt about it, and must be treated like that, a outlier-exception.

    No.

    Until quite recently Singapore had a low per capita GDP and was mostly working-class.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Professional classe you want to say...

    What i said

    REASONABLE Monaco

    I don't say

    = MONACO

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/singapore/gdp-per-capita


    Or you're being sarcastic with me, anon.
  55. @Andy
    Argentina only included those schools in the capital (CABA, for Autonomous City of Buenos Aires), the richest and more educated part of the country. The test scores for the rest of the country were invalidated as the government tampered with the sample, selecting only those schools that have done well on previous years.

    Argentinians like to imagine themselves to be 100% European but outside of Buenos Aires with its large immigrant population (that arrived at the same time as the Ellis Island era in the US) it’s not really true.

    In the end, you can predict PISA scores pretty well if you know the (true) population genetics of a country.

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    • Replies: @andy
    that's correct, in Argentina you have european descent mostly in the capital city of buenos aires, buenos aires province and the patagonian provinces. Outside that, in greater buenos aires and the northern provinces, a lot of amerindian blood.
    , @DH

    Argentinians like to imagine themselves to be 100% European but outside of Buenos Aires with its large immigrant population (that arrived at the same time as the Ellis Island era in the US) it’s not really true.
     
    Argentinians who are of European stock like to say (not to imagine) that they are of European stock. Nothing wrong with that.
    Argentines whites are not as politically correct as US and European whites. Nothing wrong with that either.
    I have travelled the country extensively. Whites are there spread in the entire pampas region (not just Buenos Aires Province but also Santa Fe, La Pampa, San Luis), the central sierras of Cordoba, the wine region in the west (Mendoza, San Juan), the southern Patagonia provinces and also in large pockets in the Mesopotamian NE (Misiones, Corrientes, Entre Rios). In the NW provinces there are the old traditional white ruling classes, probably the most self-aware whites of the country due to the large % of amerindians from Bolivia and Peru, who have migrated there in the last decades. In some of Bs As City neighborhoods there is now also a large fraction of Bolivians, Paraguayans and Peruvians recently arrived.
  56. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @DukeofQin
    Can't say anything about Indo Trinidadians but I can say to you that the Indian students in the UAE and Qatar being tested are not anywhere near the lower end of the Indian talent pool. Quite the opposite in fact, they come from India's socio-economic elite. What you are ignoring is the bifurcated demographic structure in the region. It's true that most Indians working in the middle east are construction workers and such and little more than slaves, but there is a layer of middle class (i.e. accountants) janissaries working there as well because the Gulf Arabs are just that damn lazy. What you are also forgetting is that the construction workers that make up the majority of subcontinentals there are pretty much slaves and have a slave like fertility rate of zero. There are no children of them to be tested because the Muslims are cunning enough to not let them breed nor allow them to import their children and families. The only Indians with children in the Gulf are basically of the English literate H1B types imported by Western multinationals, akin to what you get in the US and Canada.

    That is true.

    The contract laborers, and maids for that matter, are forbidden to bring their families over.

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  57. @Klon
    Same comment I left on Karlin's blog:

    It seems like the scale has been compressed. In 2012 there were 11 (6) scores over 540 (550) across the three categories (excluding Shanghai), while in 2015 there are 5 (2). Plus, I think some of the movement is essentially random; I doubt that Korea or Hong Kong have actually become stupider.

    Also, Taiwan's 2015 reading score is 497, not significantly different than the OECD average(493), while in 2012 it was 523, significantly higher than the OECD average of 496. However, the three year trend is +1 point, which contradicts the apparent decline. Does anyone have an explanation?

    Here is a link to a comment with some additional numbers. Performance of the top countries has seen a sizeable decline, or the scoring was changed.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/pisa-2015/#comment-1674082

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  58. Ethnic split for Singapore test results?

    How did the Haredi do in Israel?

    When did we in the US start taking the tests?

    Read More
    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    There are at most a handful of Haredim in Israel who would have participated in PISA.
  59. I can’t see it in these results but in recent years the Pisa rankings for the UK were broken down by country and Northern Ireland was only just behind Finland in the table.
    This suggests that the original Scotch Irish are keener on book learning than their American stereotype seems to imply.
    Perhaps there’s hope for West Virginia yet.

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  60. @CM
    Jesus Christ the Estonians are impressive! It seems like such an impressive country cursed by bad geography. Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren't neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.

    Furthermore, Estonia lost its Baltic German community, which seem like a highly accomplished and more intelligent subset of Germans, mostly descendents of German merchants. Many famous scientists and intellectuals came from the Baltic German community.

    Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren’t neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.

    Probably not much.

    Finland managed to avoid going Red and hasn’t generated many Great People, either due to personality reasons or a lower intelligence S.D. I suspect the same applies to their close relatives the Eesti.

    When I think famous Estonians the first four who come to mind are Mikhail Tal (chess), Sergey Dovlatov (excellent writer, but who’s connection with Estonia was fleeting), and Jaan Tallinn (Skype inventor). So only 1/3 of them are Estonians.

    I recall that the richest Estonian is an ethnic Russian.

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    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    Tal was Latvian, perhaps you mean Paul Keres? Also, who is the fourth Estonian? In any case Keres was AFAIK Estonian too so that's 2/3.
    , @Anonymous
    And the richest Russian, Umarov, is an Uzbek, despite Uzbekistan's IQ being in the low 80's.
    What's your point?
  61. @Anonymous
    I am surprised with the Welsh result.
    Traditionally, in Britain, the Welsh have had a reputation for quick wittedness and sharp practice, something like the Jews of Britain. Also traditionally, the Welsh had a reputation for a great aptitude and love for scholarship. Probably no other region of Britain has, over the centuries, contributed on a per capita basis more teachers and professors than the Welsh.

    By far the most common stereotype of the Welsh I’ve heard while living in Britain (okay England) is that they are sheep shaggers.

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  62. @Eric Ruttencutter
    Ok. So what's the deal with Israel? Shouldn't they be scoring much higher? Or are all the smart Jews living here and in Canada?

    The kind of Jews you think of as being “smart Jews” are mostly Ashkenazi Jews (from E. Europe) and a small % of Sephardi Jews (whose ancestors lived in Spain). Basically they are an (especially smart) subgroup of European people – outside of E. Asians, most of the smart people in the world are of European origin. They do very well on the PISA as you might expect (although in Israel some of this group are ultra Orthodox religious fanatics who do not emphasize secular education and either don’t take the PISA or do poorly on it). But this group accounts for less than 1/2 the Israeli population. The rest are either Arabs or Arab Jews from Yemen who have the same genetics as other South Arabians (some African admixture) or Ethiopian “Jews”, etc. who score exactly how you would expect them to score based on their genetics.

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  63. @Jack D
    If you could split the Israeli Jewish population into European (Ashkenazi plus true (Spanish origin) Sephardi) vs. the rest (Yemenite, Ethiopian, etc.) the European Jews would rank even higher. Of course the secular European Jews have the same cat lady tendencies as found in other Western countries and are in process of eliminating themselves from the gene pool.

    Israeli scores also depressed by the large ultra-Orthodox population who are not interested in secular education. However, this population is really quite intelligent (and has a high birthrate) - if they ever decided to direct their intelligence in a secular direction instead of Talmudic analysis, they could do quite well. The great grandfathers of all the secular Jewish geniuses of the 20th century would have looked just like one of these guys with bushy beards and sidelocks.

    “cat lady tendencies as found in other Western countries ….”

    Cat lady tendencies….LOL.

    Western should be Westernized. The president of Taiwan is a classic cat lady. A single never married woman who keeps two cats. She is the youngest of eleven sibs, so I think that there is something going on that Mother Nature is controlling.

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  64. @Klon
    Same comment I left on Karlin's blog:

    It seems like the scale has been compressed. In 2012 there were 11 (6) scores over 540 (550) across the three categories (excluding Shanghai), while in 2015 there are 5 (2). Plus, I think some of the movement is essentially random; I doubt that Korea or Hong Kong have actually become stupider.

    Also, Taiwan's 2015 reading score is 497, not significantly different than the OECD average(493), while in 2012 it was 523, significantly higher than the OECD average of 496. However, the three year trend is +1 point, which contradicts the apparent decline. Does anyone have an explanation?

    Reading through the appendix of the PISA report now, but actually there was scaling changes made between the 2012 and 2015 PISA tests that are impacting scores. Some countries are benefitting from this while others are being hurt, Taiwan’s scores (or at least the Math section is) are one of those that actually didn’t change but because of scaling differences are being reported lower than previous years. I also noticed this for US reading scores which were significantly higher in 2012 than this time around. So direct comparisons between 2012 and 2015 scores should have an asterix, but comparisons between 2015 countries are OK. (see page 305 of the appendix)

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  65. @theo the kraut
    OT--Steven Pinker:

    It’s true that the rate of violent crime went up between 2014 and 2015, most likely a consequence of the retreat of active policing since Ferguson. But it’s a small uptick in the context of the massive downward trend since 1992.
     
    Else, pretty terrible stances in that interview, though he leaves some wiggle room.

    http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/read/steven-pinker-talks-about-donald-trumps-victory-long-term-progress-and-wheth

    One of the harder things to take about Pinker is that he is obviously, in certain cases, simply saying things that he can’t really believe in order to make life easier for himself. I can sort of see the point of this, in the sense that it allows him to get out a subversive message without being Watsoned out of public view. I take his position on racial differences in IQ — that there’s no good evidence they’re genetically based, and some reason to believe that they’re not — as being among those that he trims for public effect. It’s very hard to believe that anyone who believes what he does about gender differences will, honestly, in their own minds, dismiss the possibility of genetically based racial differences in IQ as he does. It would be different if he were simply silent on the point — then we would be able at least to trust what he affirmatively claims.

    But if one grants that he isn’t entirely honest in expressing his opinions on such matters, it greatly undermines the value of what he says. Thus, when he says something that conforms to the standard progressive narrative, I have no idea whether to take him seriously or to dismiss it as more distracting BS for public consumption.

    How much of what he says here about Trump is to be taken at face value? I don’t know, and I don’t know why I should take the trouble to try to figure it out.

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    • Replies: @Peter Johnson
    I agree with you on this -- Pinker explicates beautifully and thinks carefully guided by the evidence, but in his writings he always holds back when being publicly honest might lead to a nasty Watsoning. In his wonderful books (he has several that are excellent) his poorly supported statements claiming no evidence for a genetic link between race and IQ stand out like a sore thumb.
  66. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    I don’t know what “cogelite” means but I get your point, and I reject it. The Japanese are marvelously creative people. We steal a lot of our pop culture from them, without attribution.

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  67. @CM
    Jesus Christ the Estonians are impressive! It seems like such an impressive country cursed by bad geography. Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren't neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.

    Furthermore, Estonia lost its Baltic German community, which seem like a highly accomplished and more intelligent subset of Germans, mostly descendents of German merchants. Many famous scientists and intellectuals came from the Baltic German community.

    So proud of my Finns! and Estonia! The Finnish & Estonian people were originally the same tribe. Their language is very similar. Estonia has Russians (Soviets sent Russians there by the droves during the Cold War) but not many migrants/refugees at all. Estonians came in huge numbers to work in Finland after the USSR collapse since they could get by with the language.

    Now, I know I’ll get pummeled by all you guys, but I have always heard that the Big League complicated Finnish/Estonian language (no regular verbs/no gender; 13 cases; words that can be over 28 letters long; and the “shape-shifting” of meaning of words if other words are added to a word) is somehow connected to the High IQ of ethnic Finns & Estonians. And, of course, the “Arctic Culture,” that I mentioned waaaay back.

    Of course, a diet of mostly fish has been noted; and root vegetables/berries. Junk food never really existed before the 60′s. I tasted my first potato chips in 1965. However, to this day, nutrition is an obsession in Finnish families (and Estonian) even households of modest means. People cook from scratch a lot. Something like a “Lunchables,” would never sell in Finnish supermarkets. Also, the non-GMO, low to no preservatives in food is common (chickens are very small). I always lose weight there, like 5-10 pounds even if I do eat sausages, cheese (so good) bread, and more bread, the delicious pastries, and tasty beer. I think I need to have lunch now!

    Lastly, there is no reading and math preparation until kids reach 7 and go to 1st grade. Pre-schools are universal, but it is all like the Piaget style: learn through play; outdoors in snow, included. And mandatory naps…I still remember that since I suffer from intermittent insomnia! Lots of arts and crafts and building toys. I still have my place-mats, embroidered napkins and potholders.

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    • Replies: @utu
    You forgot about the vodka in the diet of Estonians and Finn.
  68. @Buzz Mohawk
    I'm glad to see United States results separated by race. I have always felt that all the dire comparisons to other countries were the result of lumping American white people with all the American riffaff. This proves my suspicion.

    Also, I still strongly suspect places like China leave out literally millions of their peasants, thus skewing their scores tremendously.

    Hardly any other nation contends with the variety that mine does, and few if any of those include all their people effectively.

    Buzz, you’ll be happy to know that last year, my New England HS 15-year-olds, scored as high as Finland’s 15-year-olds (and Korea/Singapore). In fact, several HS’s in CT & MA scored up there with the top 5. Our principal and superintendent are youngish men who always want to get this info out to all the high-strung, uber-competitive parents in our community. I…I only make sure my sons had a great breakfast! There’s nothing you can do to prepare for these tests, in my opinion.

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    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Excellent! Congratulations!

    I went to a high school like that. The guys in my circle of friends went on to great careers. Two have patents in their name. Another is a department head at a university. Another is in the top eschelon of engineers at a major computer company. Another produces a popular TV show, earning multi-millions of dollars. Another flies airliners, after a career as a Navy fighter pilot. Still another is a pediatrician.

    This is the United States. We ARE the Americans. The rest is chaff accumulated from bad leadership, like the Immigration Act of 1965, and the importation of cheap labor to pick cotton -- or to mow lawns today.

    Nobody else on Earth has to compensate for this garbage.
  69. @Anonymous
    I am deeply suspicious of the UK's ranking.
    And I am also puzzled by Israel's modest score.

    Like the US, the UK score needs to be broken down by race.

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  70. @melendwyr
    I will note that a lot of Asian industrial achievements have been based on working to create small improvements continually, rather than radical new products.

    Which is smart, and has been wildly successful, as Western cultures tend to neglect perfectionism in pursuit of the next new thing.

    But one wonders if there are reasons for that...

    Radical new products are a maybe once in a century thing. Daimler invented the IC powered automobile in the 1880s and almost everything since then has been in the nature of improvements. If in that interval (prior to Tesla, and that remains to be seen) you had bet your money on some radical new product in the auto sector, you would have been wrong every time, while the “gradual improvement” crowd, which includes all the Asian manufacturers in the meantime has sold billions of vehicles.

    We don’t live in a binary world – Asian manufacturers are not cut off from Western genius (there is a long history in Asia of hiring Western experts which continues to this day and they are not ashamed of it at all ) and Western consumers are not cut off from Asian perfectionism. I don’t think this will change under Trump but what will change is that he will drive a harder bargain and not allow us to come up on the short end of trade deals – trade implies a two-way street and not just the US sending all of our money and jobs to Asia.

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    • Replies: @melendwyr
    You have excellent points. Permit me to modify my statements: Western societies tend to look for major improvements, discrete changes in fitness, 'jumps'. Eastern ones tend to be perfectionistic and seek frequent minor improvements while not eliminating the basic design.

    There are positive aspects of both strategies. I suspect that neither societal model is any good at what the other excels at.
  71. @Jack D
    Argentinians like to imagine themselves to be 100% European but outside of Buenos Aires with its large immigrant population (that arrived at the same time as the Ellis Island era in the US) it's not really true.

    In the end, you can predict PISA scores pretty well if you know the (true) population genetics of a country.

    that’s correct, in Argentina you have european descent mostly in the capital city of buenos aires, buenos aires province and the patagonian provinces. Outside that, in greater buenos aires and the northern provinces, a lot of amerindian blood.

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    • Replies: @AP
    There are a lot of Ukrainian settlements in northern Argentina though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Argentines
  72. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @CM
    Jesus Christ the Estonians are impressive! It seems like such an impressive country cursed by bad geography. Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren't neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.

    Furthermore, Estonia lost its Baltic German community, which seem like a highly accomplished and more intelligent subset of Germans, mostly descendents of German merchants. Many famous scientists and intellectuals came from the Baltic German community.

    They had a much poorer start compared to West Europe being part of the Russian Empire during the early 20th century (like Finland). Might take another century for them to take off. Even the Japanese underperformed their smarts in highest levels of science until the 2000′s when the Nobels started rolling.

    UK result has a racial breakdown. Some numbers are already in the comments above, here’s the relevant government report

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/574925/PISA-2015_England_Report.pdf

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  73. @Lagertha
    So proud of my Finns! and Estonia! The Finnish & Estonian people were originally the same tribe. Their language is very similar. Estonia has Russians (Soviets sent Russians there by the droves during the Cold War) but not many migrants/refugees at all. Estonians came in huge numbers to work in Finland after the USSR collapse since they could get by with the language.

    Now, I know I'll get pummeled by all you guys, but I have always heard that the Big League complicated Finnish/Estonian language (no regular verbs/no gender; 13 cases; words that can be over 28 letters long; and the "shape-shifting" of meaning of words if other words are added to a word) is somehow connected to the High IQ of ethnic Finns & Estonians. And, of course, the "Arctic Culture," that I mentioned waaaay back.

    Of course, a diet of mostly fish has been noted; and root vegetables/berries. Junk food never really existed before the 60's. I tasted my first potato chips in 1965. However, to this day, nutrition is an obsession in Finnish families (and Estonian) even households of modest means. People cook from scratch a lot. Something like a "Lunchables," would never sell in Finnish supermarkets. Also, the non-GMO, low to no preservatives in food is common (chickens are very small). I always lose weight there, like 5-10 pounds even if I do eat sausages, cheese (so good) bread, and more bread, the delicious pastries, and tasty beer. I think I need to have lunch now!

    Lastly, there is no reading and math preparation until kids reach 7 and go to 1st grade. Pre-schools are universal, but it is all like the Piaget style: learn through play; outdoors in snow, included. And mandatory naps...I still remember that since I suffer from intermittent insomnia! Lots of arts and crafts and building toys. I still have my place-mats, embroidered napkins and potholders.

    You forgot about the vodka in the diet of Estonians and Finn.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    My great aunt swore by it. Two vodkas shotglass a day, and she died @98 with no dementia. She hated to move to the retirement home at 93 (lack of privacy) and not be able to keep enjoying her vodka and her 4 woodburning "kakel ugns" that she lit everyday. Her husband died 30 years earlier. She always told me vodka cleared her brain of calcium deposits! Soooo...vodka?

    This is so lovely, for all of you to enjoy. In another life, I would love to be Tinja: Happy 99th I Day, Suomi!

    www.visitfinland.com/video/call-of-the-wild-tinja-and-her-dogs/

  74. @Dumbo
    This.

    It is also arguably the whitest part of the country, although I am not 100% sure. The North tends to be more indigenous. But Buenos Aires attracts many immigrants from Bolivia, Peru, etc.

    A large number of people living in Buenos Aires have Amerindian blood, but their children go to school in greater Buenos Aires, the outskirts of the city. In the city itself, where the test was taken, the children are mostly of european descent (mostly spanish, italian, and some jewish).

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  75. @Anonymous
    I am deeply suspicious of the UK's ranking.
    And I am also puzzled by Israel's modest score.

    people in the Us think Israel and they believe they are all Ashkenazi Jews. Actually, Israel in this sense is quite “diverse”, you have Arabs, Sephardic Jews, Ethiopian Jews, and so forth, and their IQ is quite below that of the Ashkenazis.

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  76. @Romanian
    Have to admit I'm a bit miffed about my country's results. At least it's trending upwards. Won't look for excuses (cough poverty, cough iodine deficiency, cough large unreported Roma population). Hope we do better. Then again, I'll settle for mediocre scores in exchange for more assabiyah. It might be a better mix of traits for group survival in this day and age.

    Can someone more knowledgeable please tell me how these tests are conducted? I don't remember Pisa examinations ever coming up during my schooling. I graduated from high school in 2006, so I would have caught an examination, no? I was a small town boy, but I was in the best class of the best high school in town for pre-STEM (we were arranged by test scores after 8th grade and given a harder workload), so I would assume someone would have at least padded the results by including us in the testing.

    At least your country is moving up.
    Our country has been going gown since 2003 and no improvement in sight. We used to be above OECD average (in some disciplines even significantly), now, sadly, we are below OECD average.
    Start of the decline mysteriously coincides with the fall of communism. Children born after the fall are doing worse each passing year. Almost as if the fall marked change in reproductive patterns. All blame schools or society, not the most important asset – children, though.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Not to toot my Finnish horn too loud, but, considering that today is the 99th Independence Day of Suomi, there is this to offer up: After WW2 (Finland had the Soviet "Marshall Plan") Finland decided to invest heavily in education. Children were considered a national resource, and the entire country decided that technology was the way to go. A staggering 60% of the population left the countryside and moved to the major cities (if you could say that then), Helsinki, Tampere and Pori. Children's education was an obsessive focus. Children's needs are met with a kind of concern that does not exist in other countries. I would say they have better services than Sweden now; the new Somalia. Voila', many years later, Finns still outscore all Western countries....along with their cousins, the Estonians.
  77. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @DukeofQin
    Can't say anything about Indo Trinidadians but I can say to you that the Indian students in the UAE and Qatar being tested are not anywhere near the lower end of the Indian talent pool. Quite the opposite in fact, they come from India's socio-economic elite. What you are ignoring is the bifurcated demographic structure in the region. It's true that most Indians working in the middle east are construction workers and such and little more than slaves, but there is a layer of middle class (i.e. accountants) janissaries working there as well because the Gulf Arabs are just that damn lazy. What you are also forgetting is that the construction workers that make up the majority of subcontinentals there are pretty much slaves and have a slave like fertility rate of zero. There are no children of them to be tested because the Muslims are cunning enough to not let them breed nor allow them to import their children and families. The only Indians with children in the Gulf are basically of the English literate H1B types imported by Western multinationals, akin to what you get in the US and Canada.

    Not let them breed ?
    In 21th century, it is illegal if you don’t allow someone to breed. I have been to UAE and Indian construction workers settle there, have kids and families.
    You have Indian nurses in UAE and Qatar that are far from elite. Hotel owners and shop keepers who migrate without any college degree.
    Nice try trying to prove ever good score must be done by elites.
    What’s your next excuse ? They asked some top university students from india to make a short trip to UAE and take the test with fake names ?

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    • Replies: @DukeofQin
    I am going to assume that you are, in addition to being grossly dishonest, also blatantly stupid. 21st century it may be but the social mores of the Gulf Arabs are not quite akin to that of Canadians. They actively can and do suppress immigrant fertility and are not quite so reckless as to allow their imported helot labour to potentially outbreed them.

    Your lie that Indian labor can actually settle down and have children and family in the Gulf is repudiated by a simple review of the demographic profile of the Gulf States.

    For example, the UAE has a gender ratio for 0-14 years of age of 635k males to 606k females. A natural ratio. However for the ages between 15-24, the upper bounds of which begin to include younger migrant labour, the ratio is now 477k to 325k men to women. For ages 25-54, the prime adult working age population the ratio 2.768 million to 864k. There are more than three times as many adult men in the UAE than there are adult women. Factor in that the plurality if not majority of adult women in Dubai are Arab muslims, this means that the immigrant labor pool is probably 5:1 male to female. Furthermore, the majority of the immigrant women are domestic servants from places like the Philippines and Indonesia who work and live at the homes of elites they are essentially socially segregated from the majority of male labourers that come from India, Bangladesh, Nepal, and Pakistan.
  78. @PandaAtWar
    Panda strongly suspects that you confuse the relationship amongst concepts of peasants, literacy, education and resilience of peasants' children, their avg iq and historic achievements in China, thanks to the influenece of deeply-rooted traditional/modern Western/English caste system.

    Buzz strongly suspects that you are an apologist for a feudal society that has been backwards for millenia and has grown into the world’s largest cheap labor pool thanks to the influence of deeply-rooted greed in the traditional/modern Western/English caste system.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    "backwards for millenia"? well, if you mean it's England or America, Panda strongly suspects that you are an apologist for the industrialisation, because they are no more the world's largest cheap labour pools as time has moved on (the House of Lord in London disagrees and still looks down upon you low caste lot though), can you believe it given the influence of deeply-rooted traditional/modern Western/English feudal caste system you have? ROFL
    , @Numinous
    I guess history isn't your strong suit. Your people were once cheap labor too.
  79. Read More
  80. US improved a lot since 2012 PISA. What’s is the explanation? Schools and educators are more savvy about how to go about to produce kids scoring better at PISA test? Those who look for confirmation of their biases in the PISA result table are just fooling themselves. It is all about procedures and drills and changing environments and attitudes.

    After several decades of adaptations American car industry is able to make cars comparable and often identical to those from Japan. PISA scores improvement might be a results of similar process of adopting know how and breaking it down into tasks and procedures that nearly anybody could carry.

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  81. OT: Might we break down Trump-supporters into two factions: those who understand the NYT-worldview but reject it, and those who’ve never even tried to understand it?

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  82. @Lagertha
    Buzz, you'll be happy to know that last year, my New England HS 15-year-olds, scored as high as Finland's 15-year-olds (and Korea/Singapore). In fact, several HS's in CT & MA scored up there with the top 5. Our principal and superintendent are youngish men who always want to get this info out to all the high-strung, uber-competitive parents in our community. I...I only make sure my sons had a great breakfast! There's nothing you can do to prepare for these tests, in my opinion.

    Excellent! Congratulations!

    I went to a high school like that. The guys in my circle of friends went on to great careers. Two have patents in their name. Another is a department head at a university. Another is in the top eschelon of engineers at a major computer company. Another produces a popular TV show, earning multi-millions of dollars. Another flies airliners, after a career as a Navy fighter pilot. Still another is a pediatrician.

    This is the United States. We ARE the Americans. The rest is chaff accumulated from bad leadership, like the Immigration Act of 1965, and the importation of cheap labor to pick cotton — or to mow lawns today.

    Nobody else on Earth has to compensate for this garbage.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    OMG! The Navy pilot, he's not TD by any chance?!
  83. @Buzz Mohawk
    Excellent! Congratulations!

    I went to a high school like that. The guys in my circle of friends went on to great careers. Two have patents in their name. Another is a department head at a university. Another is in the top eschelon of engineers at a major computer company. Another produces a popular TV show, earning multi-millions of dollars. Another flies airliners, after a career as a Navy fighter pilot. Still another is a pediatrician.

    This is the United States. We ARE the Americans. The rest is chaff accumulated from bad leadership, like the Immigration Act of 1965, and the importation of cheap labor to pick cotton -- or to mow lawns today.

    Nobody else on Earth has to compensate for this garbage.

    OMG! The Navy pilot, he’s not TD by any chance?!

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    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Those are not his initials, if that's what you mean by TD.

    He liked to show off on his dirt bike in the mountains. Becoming a fighter pilot made sense. Driving airliners around probably bores him.

    BTW I think of myself as one of the least successful of the bunch, but I'm doing all right. In retrospect, I think I just lived in a town with a lot of smart people.

    Congrats again on your high school's results!
  84. @Jack D
    Radical new products are a maybe once in a century thing. Daimler invented the IC powered automobile in the 1880s and almost everything since then has been in the nature of improvements. If in that interval (prior to Tesla, and that remains to be seen) you had bet your money on some radical new product in the auto sector, you would have been wrong every time, while the "gradual improvement" crowd, which includes all the Asian manufacturers in the meantime has sold billions of vehicles.

    We don't live in a binary world - Asian manufacturers are not cut off from Western genius (there is a long history in Asia of hiring Western experts which continues to this day and they are not ashamed of it at all ) and Western consumers are not cut off from Asian perfectionism. I don't think this will change under Trump but what will change is that he will drive a harder bargain and not allow us to come up on the short end of trade deals - trade implies a two-way street and not just the US sending all of our money and jobs to Asia.

    You have excellent points. Permit me to modify my statements: Western societies tend to look for major improvements, discrete changes in fitness, ‘jumps’. Eastern ones tend to be perfectionistic and seek frequent minor improvements while not eliminating the basic design.

    There are positive aspects of both strategies. I suspect that neither societal model is any good at what the other excels at.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    If what you are saying is true, then we would expect that, for example, Western automobiles would periodically get the "jump" on Asian ones until the Asians had time to copy and perfect the Western innovations, but I would say that for the last maybe 40 years that has not been the case - the Japanese manufacturers have been neck and neck with, if not ahead of, the Western producers and sometimes are the ones to introduce the boldest leaps - the Mazda rotary engine (admittedly invented by a German), the Prius hybrid, just in time manufacturing, etc.

    American manufacturers held onto the "basic design" - big cars with low efficiency OHV engines, rear wheel drive,etc. long after the Japanese had moved to more efficient designs and the Americans were the ones who had to play catch up in the end. A late '70s Ford Maverick was basically a warmed over 1960 Ford Falcon while a late '70s Honda Civic has more in common with the cars that are being sold today.

    And this is not to mention Japanese innovation (now admittedly somewhat fading) in electronics - from the dawn of the transistor era the Japanese were ahead and the US industry never really caught up.

  85. @Honorary thief
    White Americans beat Asian Americans? Too much immigration from locations in Asia other than China, Taiwan, Japan and Korea watering down the scores?

    You’ll have to ask who are officially included in this mistically fantastic notion of “Asian Americans” indeed apart from the Han Chinese, Koreans and Japanese?

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  86. One last thing: the “coverage” is the proportion of those represented in the test sample relative to the total population of 15-year-olds. For example, in China (B-S-J-G) there are 2.1 million people of the right age, of which 1.5 million are in school. For all the countries tested, the coverage of the enrolled population was over 90%.
    See page 290: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/9816061e.pdf?expires=1481052723&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=8E0EDEE28A0A70F727D4AA33B0B549C0

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  87. @Buzz Mohawk
    Buzz strongly suspects that you are an apologist for a feudal society that has been backwards for millenia and has grown into the world's largest cheap labor pool thanks to the influence of deeply-rooted greed in the traditional/modern Western/English caste system.

    “backwards for millenia”? well, if you mean it’s England or America, Panda strongly suspects that you are an apologist for the industrialisation, because they are no more the world’s largest cheap labour pools as time has moved on (the House of Lord in London disagrees and still looks down upon you low caste lot though), can you believe it given the influence of deeply-rooted traditional/modern Western/English feudal caste system you have? ROFL

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  88. This just for fun: Swedish academic wanting to trash Finnish School system always beating Sweden! I love reading these “cat fights,” of academics when it comes to education. There’s actually, some other good stuff about PISA scores on the right side column.

    Nobody believes me when I say it is always 10% of every society who does the best in school….the 10% you either were lucky enough to be a part of, or noticed how good they were in school.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/critique_of_finlands_education_system_raises_eyebrows/7947814

    I can’t figure out how to link this, but typing in yle.fi should get you there.

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    • Replies: @theo the kraut
    like so, no https:

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/critique_of_finlands_education_system_raises_eyebrows/7947814
  89. @Bobbii
    I think Guangdong province could be lower than Vietnam in every field.

    You’ll bet eating your keyboard for that? LoL

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  90. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Insofar as intelligence is genetic, within a reasonable number of years we should know the alleles that can be linked to intelligence and the genes that can be linked to genius (exceptional achievement) if they exist separately. Chinese are working on this right now.

    This is my prediction regarding the eventual results: there will be no genetic differentiation in average intelligence or “genius” among some high-performing East Asian population like Han that is truly regional, but there will be genetic variation in at least one that can be linked to economic status or occupation. Further, despite their relative achievement difference now, Japanese/Korean-Chinese differences in this regard will not be more significant than Chinese regional variation.

    Within Europe, save perhaps in groups like Ashkenazi and Roma with their specific population histories and selective pressures, the situation will be the same. On average the difference between the “core” such as Germans and periphery such as Latvians or Estonians or Irish will turn out insignificant, and all the difference can be explained through historical or cultural factors.

    Clear intercontinental difference on the other hand will be found.

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  91. @candid_observer
    One of the harder things to take about Pinker is that he is obviously, in certain cases, simply saying things that he can't really believe in order to make life easier for himself. I can sort of see the point of this, in the sense that it allows him to get out a subversive message without being Watsoned out of public view. I take his position on racial differences in IQ -- that there's no good evidence they're genetically based, and some reason to believe that they're not -- as being among those that he trims for public effect. It's very hard to believe that anyone who believes what he does about gender differences will, honestly, in their own minds, dismiss the possibility of genetically based racial differences in IQ as he does. It would be different if he were simply silent on the point -- then we would be able at least to trust what he affirmatively claims.

    But if one grants that he isn't entirely honest in expressing his opinions on such matters, it greatly undermines the value of what he says. Thus, when he says something that conforms to the standard progressive narrative, I have no idea whether to take him seriously or to dismiss it as more distracting BS for public consumption.

    How much of what he says here about Trump is to be taken at face value? I don't know, and I don't know why I should take the trouble to try to figure it out.

    I agree with you on this — Pinker explicates beautifully and thinks carefully guided by the evidence, but in his writings he always holds back when being publicly honest might lead to a nasty Watsoning. In his wonderful books (he has several that are excellent) his poorly supported statements claiming no evidence for a genetic link between race and IQ stand out like a sore thumb.

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  92. @Jack D
    Yes, keep telling yourself that while Asians eat your lunch. If only the folks at Toyota, Lenovo, Samsung, etc. had had some innovative capacity they wouldn't have been crushed by Chrysler, IBM and Motorola as they were in your alternate universe.

    Let's assume that what you are saying is totally true - Asians have ZERO innovative capacity. And yet they have managed to build wealthy societies and enormous industrial capacity in a relatively short amount of time. Toyota sells more vehicles than GM and Hyundai (which never made a single automobile before the 1970s) outsells Ford. So innovative capacity must not be a precondition to industrialization and commercial success. Maybe they do it just by stealing Western ideas and technology, but they do it. The Soviets tried to get by on IP theft and it didn't work nearly as well for them, so maybe the Asians have some quality that make up for their lack of innovative capacity (0r maybe it's not really zero after all). Edison (who knew something about such things) said that genius was 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Maybe the Asians are more willing to do the perspiration stuff than we are nowadays?

    I agree with you that the Asians are killin’ it. But they don’t have the cruel yoke of diversity around their necks.

    In the mid 60′s both Canada and the US decided to go multicultural. The decision was both a heinous crime and a colossal blunder. That decision was made into the new state religion. Just imagine if all the resources poured into diversity for the past 50 years went instead to, say, the space program? And we had a cohesive nation with a strong identity?

    There’s no Uyghurs Lives Matter protesters screaming at professors on any campuses in Beijing.

    Shinto temples in Japan don’t seek out the wretched of the Earth for import.

    South Korea doesn’t let Abdul plus his 3 wives and 12 children to move in and go on welfare.

    Of course we let all this happen to us because we are simply too nice. But perhaps you’ve noticed something of a sea change in Western politics recently? Maybe even a watershed moment?

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    • Replies: @BB753
    We are too nice to tell our not-so-nice elites to stop their crap! That's the difference.
  93. @Lagertha
    This just for fun: Swedish academic wanting to trash Finnish School system always beating Sweden! I love reading these "cat fights," of academics when it comes to education. There's actually, some other good stuff about PISA scores on the right side column.

    Nobody believes me when I say it is always 10% of every society who does the best in school....the 10% you either were lucky enough to be a part of, or noticed how good they were in school.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/critique_of_finlands_education_system_raises_eyebrows/7947814

    I can't figure out how to link this, but typing in yle.fi should get you there.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Embarrassing...but, I have often said I am not computer/internet savvy. Thanx
  94. @PandaAtWar
    Perhaps we morons have smaller mouthes and bigger brains than you morons? ROFL


    http://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2015/article_0016.html

    Granted patents are a terrible proxy for innovation; applications for patents even less so. Examiners are motivated to process patents as quickly as possible, and even then, there is no requirement that a patented invention actually function, so long as it is novel, not obvious, and so on. One may patent a set of canvas wings designed to be strapped to the arms, of the sort Wile E. Coyote commonly employed. A better test of a patent’s true value is in records of its litigation, not its prosecution. Of course, only a small fraction of applications for patents are granted, and a much smaller fraction of those are litigated. The most vlauable innovations, if patented at all (many are preserved as trade secrets) are amicably practiced, sold, or licensed precisely because they are indisputably innovative inventions not overly derivative from prior art.

    tl;dr: Panda may be a smartass, but maybe not so smart.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Panda said "1,000 miles starts with the first step". A terrible WIPO innovation proxy is by all means 1,000 times better than that buzz proxy, or you think otherwise?

    tl;dr: Panda's arse is a trade secret, or one of those most valuable innovations more often than not, smart or no is a topic of Vogue magazine, not a PISA column. lol
  95. @Anonymous
    I am surprised with the Welsh result.
    Traditionally, in Britain, the Welsh have had a reputation for quick wittedness and sharp practice, something like the Jews of Britain. Also traditionally, the Welsh had a reputation for a great aptitude and love for scholarship. Probably no other region of Britain has, over the centuries, contributed on a per capita basis more teachers and professors than the Welsh.

    traditionally, Wales is “where the men are men and the sheep are petrified.”

    Wales is mostly the butt of jokes about backwater rubes.

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  96. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    Maybe what you said applies to the Chinese, but I wouldn’t rule out the creative capacity of the Japanese being on par with Westerners. Consider that all of their strides to catch up to the West have come within the last 150 years. Before that they were a backwards nation that consciously chose to isolate itself. South Korea has undergone the same rate of advancement as well. Shortly after the war they were basically on par with the Latin American Banana Republics.

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  97. @Jack D
    Yes, keep telling yourself that while Asians eat your lunch. If only the folks at Toyota, Lenovo, Samsung, etc. had had some innovative capacity they wouldn't have been crushed by Chrysler, IBM and Motorola as they were in your alternate universe.

    Let's assume that what you are saying is totally true - Asians have ZERO innovative capacity. And yet they have managed to build wealthy societies and enormous industrial capacity in a relatively short amount of time. Toyota sells more vehicles than GM and Hyundai (which never made a single automobile before the 1970s) outsells Ford. So innovative capacity must not be a precondition to industrialization and commercial success. Maybe they do it just by stealing Western ideas and technology, but they do it. The Soviets tried to get by on IP theft and it didn't work nearly as well for them, so maybe the Asians have some quality that make up for their lack of innovative capacity (0r maybe it's not really zero after all). Edison (who knew something about such things) said that genius was 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Maybe the Asians are more willing to do the perspiration stuff than we are nowadays?

    Do you believe what Edison said? Isn’t all genetic as to whether we’re geniuses or not?

    99% vs. 1% is a pretty bold statement and wouldn’t last more than 5 comments here.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Edison spoke at a time when most (white) Americans had similar genetics so if Edison was a genius it wasn't because he was genetically different than all the other people in his small town in Ohio. So he figured it was because he worked harder than most.

    It's ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head - in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.
  98. @melendwyr
    You have excellent points. Permit me to modify my statements: Western societies tend to look for major improvements, discrete changes in fitness, 'jumps'. Eastern ones tend to be perfectionistic and seek frequent minor improvements while not eliminating the basic design.

    There are positive aspects of both strategies. I suspect that neither societal model is any good at what the other excels at.

    If what you are saying is true, then we would expect that, for example, Western automobiles would periodically get the “jump” on Asian ones until the Asians had time to copy and perfect the Western innovations, but I would say that for the last maybe 40 years that has not been the case – the Japanese manufacturers have been neck and neck with, if not ahead of, the Western producers and sometimes are the ones to introduce the boldest leaps – the Mazda rotary engine (admittedly invented by a German), the Prius hybrid, just in time manufacturing, etc.

    American manufacturers held onto the “basic design” – big cars with low efficiency OHV engines, rear wheel drive,etc. long after the Japanese had moved to more efficient designs and the Americans were the ones who had to play catch up in the end. A late ’70s Ford Maverick was basically a warmed over 1960 Ford Falcon while a late ’70s Honda Civic has more in common with the cars that are being sold today.

    And this is not to mention Japanese innovation (now admittedly somewhat fading) in electronics – from the dawn of the transistor era the Japanese were ahead and the US industry never really caught up.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    And this is not to mention Japanese innovation (now admittedly somewhat fading) in electronics – from the dawn of the transistor era the Japanese were ahead and the US industry never really caught up.
     
    Don't get carried away. Quite a lot has been done in the USA since the "dawn of the transistor era: the integrated circuit, supercomputers (Seymour Cray), etc
  99. @Bobbii
    You should visite Silicon Valley to see how white it is.

    You should visit Silicon Valley to see where it is.

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  100. @Jack D
    Yes, keep telling yourself that while Asians eat your lunch. If only the folks at Toyota, Lenovo, Samsung, etc. had had some innovative capacity they wouldn't have been crushed by Chrysler, IBM and Motorola as they were in your alternate universe.

    Let's assume that what you are saying is totally true - Asians have ZERO innovative capacity. And yet they have managed to build wealthy societies and enormous industrial capacity in a relatively short amount of time. Toyota sells more vehicles than GM and Hyundai (which never made a single automobile before the 1970s) outsells Ford. So innovative capacity must not be a precondition to industrialization and commercial success. Maybe they do it just by stealing Western ideas and technology, but they do it. The Soviets tried to get by on IP theft and it didn't work nearly as well for them, so maybe the Asians have some quality that make up for their lack of innovative capacity (0r maybe it's not really zero after all). Edison (who knew something about such things) said that genius was 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Maybe the Asians are more willing to do the perspiration stuff than we are nowadays?

    bzb’s point is that East Asian countries are poor at making anything new except for making well-engineered derivatives of technologies invented by white people? Aren’t Toyota, Lenovo, and Samsung good examples of that?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.
    , @Against Eurocentric BS,
    Until about 1776 when James Watt invented HIS game-changing steam engine, it was Europe that copied a lot of technologies from China. Even though Europe overtook China in physics, astronomy, math in the 17th century, China was still ahead of Europei in TECHNOLOGY until the late 18th century. I'll just name a few Chinese technologies Europe got from China. Not only gunpowder but also canon, gun, bomb, rocket, both land and sea mines, paper, printing ( both woodblock and movable type), color printing, compass, cast iron, blast furnace, coke, designs for various textile machines, so-called Bessemer steel process, Siemens' steel process, porcelain, silk, lacquer, deep -drilling techniques for oil and natural gas, draw loom, quilting machine, rudder, watertight compartments on ships, multi-mast, modern horse collar, cast iron plough, winnowing machine, multi-seed drill and much more.. All these Chinese inventions were transmitted to Europe between the 6th through the 19th century. These Chinese inventions changed tremendously then technologically- backward Europe. According to Robert Temple a well-respected scholar of the Oriental Studies, more than half the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution, came out of China. Also even in the ancient times, China was far ahead of Gereco-Roman civilization in technology, So you just remember that the last 240- year Western domination is an aberration from the long-running Asian and Chinese domination and Europe was basically, copying, adaptive culture before the Industrial Revolution, The way things are going now I think there is a good chance that China will the technological superpower again by the middle of this century.
  101. @AlexV
    You need to split Jews and Arabs (25% of population). Jews will be ranked #12 in reading #20 in mathematics and #30 in science, while Arabs will be below #60 (together with other Arab countries). The analysis is http://go.ynet.co.il/pic/news/pisa_2015.pdf (in Hebrew) , the key is page 15.

    A quick back of the envelope calculation of the weighted averages of the Jewish and Arab populations indicates that Jews scored approximately 486 in the science PISA.

    How?
    Jordan’s score (proxy for Palestinians) 409
    Israel’s score (includes 25% Palestinian population) 467

    Calculate: .25 * 409 + .75 * (X, Jewish Score) = 467

    X = (467-.25*409)/.75= 486

    Not a surprising result, considering that more than half of Israel’s population derive from Arab, middle eastern lands, where they had resided for eons, with no European admixture.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes, for Israel we should really seek information about the scores for Jews vs Arabs and the scores for Ashkenazi Jews vs. other Jews. The national score is meaningless as it is for the United States.
    , @AlexV
    You are right, the numbers for Jews are 488 for science (30th place), 507 for reading (12th place) and 495 for math (20th place). Arabs are less then 400.
  102. @Jack D
    If what you are saying is true, then we would expect that, for example, Western automobiles would periodically get the "jump" on Asian ones until the Asians had time to copy and perfect the Western innovations, but I would say that for the last maybe 40 years that has not been the case - the Japanese manufacturers have been neck and neck with, if not ahead of, the Western producers and sometimes are the ones to introduce the boldest leaps - the Mazda rotary engine (admittedly invented by a German), the Prius hybrid, just in time manufacturing, etc.

    American manufacturers held onto the "basic design" - big cars with low efficiency OHV engines, rear wheel drive,etc. long after the Japanese had moved to more efficient designs and the Americans were the ones who had to play catch up in the end. A late '70s Ford Maverick was basically a warmed over 1960 Ford Falcon while a late '70s Honda Civic has more in common with the cars that are being sold today.

    And this is not to mention Japanese innovation (now admittedly somewhat fading) in electronics - from the dawn of the transistor era the Japanese were ahead and the US industry never really caught up.

    And this is not to mention Japanese innovation (now admittedly somewhat fading) in electronics – from the dawn of the transistor era the Japanese were ahead and the US industry never really caught up.

    Don’t get carried away. Quite a lot has been done in the USA since the “dawn of the transistor era: the integrated circuit, supercomputers (Seymour Cray), etc

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I was really thinking more about consumer electronics - radios, TVs, VCRs, etc. After the wooden cabinet/vacuum tube era, the Japanese were way ahead. Ditto cameras. Even when the US was good at innovation, they didn't end up with the manufacturing .
  103. I’d love to be a fly on the wall when someone tells the precious snowflakes taking the test that their scores are being so ruthlessly compared.

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  104. @Federalist
    bzb's point is that East Asian countries are poor at making anything new except for making well-engineered derivatives of technologies invented by white people? Aren't Toyota, Lenovo, and Samsung good examples of that?

    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Explosives Prize? Pauleeeeez. lol
    , @Chrisnonymous
    I don't know how precisely to compare Nobel prizes to one another, but here are a few observations:

    1- The invention of LEDs led to 3 of those prizes. Essentially, one discovery, 3 prizes.

    2- The underground Kamiokande neutrino detector was built in the 1980s, when money was easy to come by in Japan. The detector is responsible for 2 of those prizes. Should the prizes have gone to the physicists or Japan's successful industrialists?

    3- Some of the prizes in medicine have gone to people who explicating "mechanisms". To me, this sounds like the kind of medical discovery that involves the highest labor-to-ingenuity ratio.

    I don't know anything about chemistry. Does anybody have an opinion on the 2 prizes shared re palladium-related reactions?
    , @PandaAtWar
    The Explosives Prize, hard science or not, has been by and large a function of a small academic+ political + geopolitical complex affiliation, accumulation of $$$$$$$$ funding/project, accumulation GDP & college funding /head, personal age, national avg IQ, and total population size of prize-winner's country. It has existed in a random time frame (gee, the boys of 20th century were/are funny indeed) for a tiny period of time in the historical river. Using Explosives Prize to somehow rank or prove nation/people's historical innovation record takes a huuuuge risk of , for instance, to suggest that "Sun is in fact so insignificant and dark while the Moon is far bigger and bright in comparison" just because we're now at 7pm winter times in the north hemersphere...eeeerrr, interesting.
    , @syonredux

    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.
     
    Yep. Here's a map from WEST HUNTER where countries are sized according to scientific output:


    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/zones-of-thought/

    Japan dwarfs Africa, Latin America, etc
    , @Federalist
    True. Nobels in the sciences suggest that Asians (or at least the Japanese) are innovative.

    My point was that citing Toyota, Lenovo, and Samsung doesn't refute the argument that East Asian countries are poor at creating new things but tend to succeed at well engineered derivatives of technologies invented by white people. These companies didn't really have anything to do with inventing cars, computers, televisions, smart phones, etc. (as far as I know but I'm not an expert by any means).

  105. @WhatEvvs
    I don't know what "cogelite" means but I get your point, and I reject it. The Japanese are marvelously creative people. We steal a lot of our pop culture from them, without attribution.

    Turnabout is fair play.

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  106. In my lifetime, the rise of Samsung is pretty shocking to me. I didn’t anticipated that. They were able to beat the Japanese at their own game. Even the mighty Sony.

    It’s like if you tell me today that in 20 years that there will be a Vietnamese global company on the scale of Samsung, I won’t believe you.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    The rise of S. Korea in general has been pretty amazing. At the end of the Korean War, S. Korea was a folkloric kind of place like Nepal or something, where subsistence farmers in funny clothes rode around on ox carts and scavenged in the dumpsters of American Army bases. The reason that there are lots of Koreans in America is that Korea was a really poor country. Hyundai, now bigger than Ford, produced its 1st homegrown design car only in the 70s and built licensed (from Ford) cars for only a few years before that. At that point Ford had a 70 year head start in the auto business. My father used to say "wanting is better than knowing". The Koreans really WANTED it.
  107. @Autochthon
    Granted patents are a terrible proxy for innovation; applications for patents even less so. Examiners are motivated to process patents as quickly as possible, and even then, there is no requirement that a patented invention actually function, so long as it is novel, not obvious, and so on. One may patent a set of canvas wings designed to be strapped to the arms, of the sort Wile E. Coyote commonly employed. A better test of a patent's true value is in records of its litigation, not its prosecution. Of course, only a small fraction of applications for patents are granted, and a much smaller fraction of those are litigated. The most vlauable innovations, if patented at all (many are preserved as trade secrets) are amicably practiced, sold, or licensed precisely because they are indisputably innovative inventions not overly derivative from prior art.

    tl;dr: Panda may be a smartass, but maybe not so smart.

    Panda said “1,000 miles starts with the first step”. A terrible WIPO innovation proxy is by all means 1,000 times better than that buzz proxy, or you think otherwise?

    tl;dr: Panda’s arse is a trade secret, or one of those most valuable innovations more often than not, smart or no is a topic of Vogue magazine, not a PISA column. lol

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Conceding data about patents are poor proxies for data about innovation while suggesting they are nevertheless the best we can do is risible. All recorded history and our lying eyes provide a surfeit of better data regarding the veritable deluge of invention and creativiry by Europeans and our diaspora versus the dearth of it by Asians and theirs. Cf. gunpowder and paper versus essentially every other significant technological advancement. (Nevermind the arts and humanities.) I'd start an illustraive list but I don't have that kind of time, and there is no honour in carrying on ungraciously after victory: just look to the example of how gracious Douglas MacArthur was to the vanquished after the flight of the Enola Gay (speaking of Occidental innovations over Oriental roboticism...). That example implicates the Japanese, and you imply allegiance to the Chinese, but then, even the Japanese have achieved far greater innovation and success than your ilk.

    A dictum: military technology is often a good reflection of a people's comparative innovation, because it is for obvious reasons not so readily shared, and more closely guarded from theft (and the Chinese steal intellectual property like nobody's business!). Yet the Chinese cannot so much as field an aircraft carrier worthy to be considered one by modern standards.

    Panda, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I don't mind saying so; my distaste stems in large part from my suspicion you are a parastic immivader, gleefully deriding the U.S.A. to praise China, despite having fled the latter to dwell in the former. Revealed preferences, hypocrisy, actions inconsistent with words...Hell's bells, a whole host of contemptible implications follow if my suspicion is correct.
  108. @BenKenobi
    I agree with you that the Asians are killin' it. But they don't have the cruel yoke of diversity around their necks.

    In the mid 60's both Canada and the US decided to go multicultural. The decision was both a heinous crime and a colossal blunder. That decision was made into the new state religion. Just imagine if all the resources poured into diversity for the past 50 years went instead to, say, the space program? And we had a cohesive nation with a strong identity?

    There's no Uyghurs Lives Matter protesters screaming at professors on any campuses in Beijing.

    Shinto temples in Japan don't seek out the wretched of the Earth for import.

    South Korea doesn't let Abdul plus his 3 wives and 12 children to move in and go on welfare.

    Of course we let all this happen to us because we are simply too nice. But perhaps you've noticed something of a sea change in Western politics recently? Maybe even a watershed moment?

    We are too nice to tell our not-so-nice elites to stop their crap! That’s the difference.

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  109. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @syonredux

    Ok. So what’s the deal with Israel? Shouldn’t they be scoring much higher? Or are all the smart Jews living here and in Canada?
     
    Intellectual laziness might also be a factor. Israeli Jews tend to be susceptible to Levantine lunkheadism....

    Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of the Israeli population, and a significant proportion of them are ultra-Orthodox who devote minimal resources to secular subjects in their schools. More than half of the Israeli population is made up of Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (from Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, etc.) and Ethiopian Jews. The Arabs and non-European Jews bring down Israel’s scores.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of the Israeli population, and a significant proportion of them are ultra-Orthodox who devote minimal resources to secular subjects in their schools. More than half of the Israeli population is made up of Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (from Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, etc.) and Ethiopian Jews. The Arabs and non-European Jews bring down Israel’s scores.
     
    Sure. That's a big factor. I'm just noting that you can add to that fact the presence of an Eastern Med "Life's-a-beach-let's-go-to-the-disco" mentality."
  110. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Mr. Brown
    Jews are only 75% of Israel's population -- the other 25% consists of Israeli Arabs who presumably score like the Jordanians just did. That fact, in itself, explains it away.

    And Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of Israel’s population. More than half of Israel’s population is made up of Israeli Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (emigrated to Israel from Middle Eastern countries), and Ethiopian Jews. I am skeptical that the Arabs, Mizrahim and Ethiopian Jews score well on PISA.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The Ashkenazis in Israel probably score below whites.
    If you look at the raw data from the PISA website, there seems to be no bimodality in the distribution of the scores, and even if you rightfully assume Ashkenazis score significantly more than Mizrahis, they still come out very unimpressive.
  111. @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.

    I don’t know how precisely to compare Nobel prizes to one another, but here are a few observations:

    1- The invention of LEDs led to 3 of those prizes. Essentially, one discovery, 3 prizes.

    2- The underground Kamiokande neutrino detector was built in the 1980s, when money was easy to come by in Japan. The detector is responsible for 2 of those prizes. Should the prizes have gone to the physicists or Japan’s successful industrialists?

    3- Some of the prizes in medicine have gone to people who explicating “mechanisms”. To me, this sounds like the kind of medical discovery that involves the highest labor-to-ingenuity ratio.

    I don’t know anything about chemistry. Does anybody have an opinion on the 2 prizes shared re palladium-related reactions?

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    • Replies: @inertial
    Of course, the original (white) scientist who discovered (and correctly explained) LED lights in the first place got no Nobel. Which goes to show that Nobels are not always the best criteria.
  112. @bzb
    For the cogelite morons here, why are east asian countries so poor at making anything new except for making well engineeeredderivatives of technologies invented by white people? Does hong kong and Singapore have any notable industries aside from real estate any finance? Basically it seems that east Asians have zero innovative capacities compared to Caucasians.

    In “A Troublesome Inheritance” Wade suggests the lack of innovative creativity by East Asians might be explained by a thousand-year-long Imperial Exam System that emphasized rote memorization etc.

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    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter

    In “A Troublesome Inheritance” Wade suggests the lack of innovative creativity by East Asians might be explained by a thousand-year-long Imperial Exam System that emphasized rote memorization etc.
     
    Well, that is everyone's go to explanation.

    However, Hong Kong used to have an entertainment industry capable of creating emptying streets all over Asia in the '80s.

    I suspect that the lack of 'innovations' has more to do with the lack of protection for merchants and inventors for thousands of years. Why put the effort into inventing some great new idea if the Emperor's friends could confiscate it all from you.
  113. @syonredux

    And this is not to mention Japanese innovation (now admittedly somewhat fading) in electronics – from the dawn of the transistor era the Japanese were ahead and the US industry never really caught up.
     
    Don't get carried away. Quite a lot has been done in the USA since the "dawn of the transistor era: the integrated circuit, supercomputers (Seymour Cray), etc

    I was really thinking more about consumer electronics – radios, TVs, VCRs, etc. After the wooden cabinet/vacuum tube era, the Japanese were way ahead. Ditto cameras. Even when the US was good at innovation, they didn’t end up with the manufacturing .

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    I was really thinking more about consumer electronics – radios, TVs, VCRs, etc. After the wooden cabinet/vacuum tube era, the Japanese were way ahead. Ditto cameras.
     
    Sure. I was just responding to the lack of that kind of qualifier in your original post.
    , @Philip Owen
    The saying used to be "Invented in Britain, developed in America, Made in Japan". Rather unfair to continental Europe but it illustrated the times.

    Another one, slightly off topic.

    German cars, "Designed by geniuses, built by craftsmen"
    Japanese cars, "Designed by geniuses, built by morons"
    British cars, "Built by craftsmen"
  114. @Jack D
    I was really thinking more about consumer electronics - radios, TVs, VCRs, etc. After the wooden cabinet/vacuum tube era, the Japanese were way ahead. Ditto cameras. Even when the US was good at innovation, they didn't end up with the manufacturing .

    I was really thinking more about consumer electronics – radios, TVs, VCRs, etc. After the wooden cabinet/vacuum tube era, the Japanese were way ahead. Ditto cameras.

    Sure. I was just responding to the lack of that kind of qualifier in your original post.

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  115. @Anonymous
    Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of the Israeli population, and a significant proportion of them are ultra-Orthodox who devote minimal resources to secular subjects in their schools. More than half of the Israeli population is made up of Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (from Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, etc.) and Ethiopian Jews. The Arabs and non-European Jews bring down Israel's scores.

    Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of the Israeli population, and a significant proportion of them are ultra-Orthodox who devote minimal resources to secular subjects in their schools. More than half of the Israeli population is made up of Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (from Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, etc.) and Ethiopian Jews. The Arabs and non-European Jews bring down Israel’s scores.

    Sure. That’s a big factor. I’m just noting that you can add to that fact the presence of an Eastern Med “Life’s-a-beach-let’s-go-to-the-disco” mentality.”

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  116. @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.

    The Explosives Prize, hard science or not, has been by and large a function of a small academic+ political + geopolitical complex affiliation, accumulation of $$$$$$$$ funding/project, accumulation GDP & college funding /head, personal age, national avg IQ, and total population size of prize-winner’s country. It has existed in a random time frame (gee, the boys of 20th century were/are funny indeed) for a tiny period of time in the historical river. Using Explosives Prize to somehow rank or prove nation/people’s historical innovation record takes a huuuuge risk of , for instance, to suggest that “Sun is in fact so insignificant and dark while the Moon is far bigger and bright in comparison” just because we’re now at 7pm winter times in the north hemersphere…eeeerrr, interesting.

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Eh.Sure, the Nobel has its problems (e.g., how they failed to honor figures like Josiah Willard Gibbs, Oswald Avery, Colin MacLeod, Maclyn McCarty, etc).That being said, it still provides a fairly decent yardstick for achievements in STEM for the last century or so.
  117. @Formerly CARealist
    Do you believe what Edison said? Isn't all genetic as to whether we're geniuses or not?

    99% vs. 1% is a pretty bold statement and wouldn't last more than 5 comments here.

    Edison spoke at a time when most (white) Americans had similar genetics so if Edison was a genius it wasn’t because he was genetically different than all the other people in his small town in Ohio. So he figured it was because he worked harder than most.

    It’s ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head – in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    It’s ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head – in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.
     
    The creation of the modern industrial laboratory was one of Edison's greatest contributions to science.
    , @syonredux

    It’s ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head – in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.
     
    That's also one of the things that works against Edison in terms of popular culture. We have this romantic image of the scientist/inventor as a kind of lonely visionary. Edison, in contrast, was about relentless work. There's a problem to be solved? Gather a team of smart guys and start finding solutions. We need someone with a thorough grounding in, say, mathematics? Hire that Francis Robbins Upton kid that Hermann von Helmholtz thinks so highly of.
  118. @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.

    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.

    Yep. Here’s a map from WEST HUNTER where countries are sized according to scientific output:

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/zones-of-thought/

    Japan dwarfs Africa, Latin America, etc

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  119. @theo the kraut
    like so, no https:

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/critique_of_finlands_education_system_raises_eyebrows/7947814

    Embarrassing…but, I have often said I am not computer/internet savvy. Thanx

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  120. @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have won a lot of hard science Nobels in this century.

    True. Nobels in the sciences suggest that Asians (or at least the Japanese) are innovative.

    My point was that citing Toyota, Lenovo, and Samsung doesn’t refute the argument that East Asian countries are poor at creating new things but tend to succeed at well engineered derivatives of technologies invented by white people. These companies didn’t really have anything to do with inventing cars, computers, televisions, smart phones, etc. (as far as I know but I’m not an expert by any means).

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  121. @Jack D
    Edison spoke at a time when most (white) Americans had similar genetics so if Edison was a genius it wasn't because he was genetically different than all the other people in his small town in Ohio. So he figured it was because he worked harder than most.

    It's ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head - in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.

    It’s ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head – in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.

    The creation of the modern industrial laboratory was one of Edison’s greatest contributions to science.

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  122. Chinese results seem persistently dragged down by reading. Given the nature of their writing system it is probably to be expected, since it is demonstrably much harder to master than those based on alphabets. Hong Kong and Singapore both use English as a primary language from what I understand, although I have not looked into whether their tests were done in English. But that might be a reason for why they out perform China significantly in reading.

    If we ignore the reading score, China’s science and math scores are both significantly ahead of the OECD average, which reflects where we’d expect China’s most developed regions to be – that is, around the level of Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. Further progress is probably possible given the example of Taiwan – listed as Chinese Taipei – which has a similar depressed reading score but is even higher above the OECD average in math and science.

    Unfortunately, it is never possible to fully control for the effects of reading as any standardized testing that is not a formal IQ test of the Raven’s Progressive Matrices type will be biased by the written medium in which it is given. At the end of the day, PISA is an education achievement test, and only an above average proxy for intelligence testing. It can never substitute for intelligence tests altogether.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Testing reading across languages seems harder to fine tune to make it fair to everybody than testing math.

    The PISA people do a lot of fix-it-in-post work where they toss out questions after the test that appear to have been culturally biased and the like. I assume they are pretty good at it and do it objectively, honestly, and competently. But how can I tell?

    , @The Wobbly Guy
    All tests in Singapore are administered in English unless they are explicitly non-English language subjects eg. Tamil literature, china studies in chinese.
    , @bsbsbsbsbs
    You people know that the imperial civil service exam contained zero math, or at least vastly emphasized subjects like Confucian analects and history and poetry writing, which would fall under liberal arts right? Why hasn't this been mentioned in this blog even ONCE?
  123. @krakonos
    At least your country is moving up.
    Our country has been going gown since 2003 and no improvement in sight. We used to be above OECD average (in some disciplines even significantly), now, sadly, we are below OECD average.
    Start of the decline mysteriously coincides with the fall of communism. Children born after the fall are doing worse each passing year. Almost as if the fall marked change in reproductive patterns. All blame schools or society, not the most important asset - children, though.

    Not to toot my Finnish horn too loud, but, considering that today is the 99th Independence Day of Suomi, there is this to offer up: After WW2 (Finland had the Soviet “Marshall Plan”) Finland decided to invest heavily in education. Children were considered a national resource, and the entire country decided that technology was the way to go. A staggering 60% of the population left the countryside and moved to the major cities (if you could say that then), Helsinki, Tampere and Pori. Children’s education was an obsessive focus. Children’s needs are met with a kind of concern that does not exist in other countries. I would say they have better services than Sweden now; the new Somalia. Voila’, many years later, Finns still outscore all Western countries….along with their cousins, the Estonians.

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    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    What's the immigration situation like in Finland?
  124. @Neal
    In my lifetime, the rise of Samsung is pretty shocking to me. I didn't anticipated that. They were able to beat the Japanese at their own game. Even the mighty Sony.

    It's like if you tell me today that in 20 years that there will be a Vietnamese global company on the scale of Samsung, I won't believe you.

    The rise of S. Korea in general has been pretty amazing. At the end of the Korean War, S. Korea was a folkloric kind of place like Nepal or something, where subsistence farmers in funny clothes rode around on ox carts and scavenged in the dumpsters of American Army bases. The reason that there are lots of Koreans in America is that Korea was a really poor country. Hyundai, now bigger than Ford, produced its 1st homegrown design car only in the 70s and built licensed (from Ford) cars for only a few years before that. At that point Ford had a 70 year head start in the auto business. My father used to say “wanting is better than knowing”. The Koreans really WANTED it.

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    • Replies: @yss
    Uhm no the only reason why the Koreans stole the march from the Japanese in cars is that the KRW was a lot weaker than the JPY for a while, like from 2010 to 2012.
  125. @Jack D
    Edison spoke at a time when most (white) Americans had similar genetics so if Edison was a genius it wasn't because he was genetically different than all the other people in his small town in Ohio. So he figured it was because he worked harder than most.

    It's ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head - in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.

    It’s ironic that the image of the inventor is that of a light bulb suddenly going on over your head – in fact Edison (or actually the people he had working in his lab) tried thousands of materials before they found a suitable filament.

    That’s also one of the things that works against Edison in terms of popular culture. We have this romantic image of the scientist/inventor as a kind of lonely visionary. Edison, in contrast, was about relentless work. There’s a problem to be solved? Gather a team of smart guys and start finding solutions. We need someone with a thorough grounding in, say, mathematics? Hire that Francis Robbins Upton kid that Hermann von Helmholtz thinks so highly of.

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  126. @Sam Patch
    In "A Troublesome Inheritance" Wade suggests the lack of innovative creativity by East Asians might be explained by a thousand-year-long Imperial Exam System that emphasized rote memorization etc.

    In “A Troublesome Inheritance” Wade suggests the lack of innovative creativity by East Asians might be explained by a thousand-year-long Imperial Exam System that emphasized rote memorization etc.

    Well, that is everyone’s go to explanation.

    However, Hong Kong used to have an entertainment industry capable of creating emptying streets all over Asia in the ’80s.

    I suspect that the lack of ‘innovations’ has more to do with the lack of protection for merchants and inventors for thousands of years. Why put the effort into inventing some great new idea if the Emperor’s friends could confiscate it all from you.

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    • Replies: @Sam Patch
    That, too, sounds reasonable. but what do I know? I'm just a gap-toothed, ignorant deplorable
    , @ffer
    Does HK have any industry nowadays aside from finance related stuff and real estate speculation, quite impressive where all those nobel laureate are going eh? It used to have some industry like textiles but it all went to China despite HK keeping the HKD artificially weak.
  127. @Lathdrinor
    Chinese results seem persistently dragged down by reading. Given the nature of their writing system it is probably to be expected, since it is demonstrably much harder to master than those based on alphabets. Hong Kong and Singapore both use English as a primary language from what I understand, although I have not looked into whether their tests were done in English. But that might be a reason for why they out perform China significantly in reading.

    If we ignore the reading score, China's science and math scores are both significantly ahead of the OECD average, which reflects where we'd expect China's most developed regions to be - that is, around the level of Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. Further progress is probably possible given the example of Taiwan - listed as Chinese Taipei - which has a similar depressed reading score but is even higher above the OECD average in math and science.

    Unfortunately, it is never possible to fully control for the effects of reading as any standardized testing that is not a formal IQ test of the Raven's Progressive Matrices type will be biased by the written medium in which it is given. At the end of the day, PISA is an education achievement test, and only an above average proxy for intelligence testing. It can never substitute for intelligence tests altogether.

    Testing reading across languages seems harder to fine tune to make it fair to everybody than testing math.

    The PISA people do a lot of fix-it-in-post work where they toss out questions after the test that appear to have been culturally biased and the like. I assume they are pretty good at it and do it objectively, honestly, and competently. But how can I tell?

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    • Replies: @Lathdrinor
    I am sure their effort is commendable, but cultural bias is a problem of a different nature than the one I am talking about. The Chinese writing system, as one of the few completely logographic systems left in the world, has unique challenges absent in other systems. For an example, see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3549123. It is the only writing system in the world that demands the memorization of some 4,000 graphs before literacy can be achieved. For comparison, in Japanese that number is less than half, and in English, less than a hundredth.

    The effects of having to learn such a system cannot be easily determined from an education achievement test, which necessarily must test students in their native language, even if they attempt to avoid cultural bias in the questions. It would be satisfying to quantity this difference in terms of a negative score contribution, but I do not think the issue is that simple, because as the study above indicates, this difference can manifest in very strange ways - such as a significant negative correlation between reading scores and the use of one input method versus another during learning. Thus, there could be a significant generation difference in reading ability between Chinese children simply on the basis of adoption of electronic learning devices. Such differences say nothing about the children's IQ, but inevitably end up in standardized testing results that are then used as proxies for IQ, leading to general confusion about whether the average IQ is dropping.

    It is for this reason that I think PISA results should always be taken with a grain of salt. It might be the best measure that exists for comparing contemporary international populations, but that still doesn't make it an excellent measure. The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.
  128. OT but the story about the Oakland rave burning is interesting because it condenses a number of points relevant to the split between liberals and conservatives.

    The operator leased the building which he sublet to tenants for use as an art colony. Although the building was not zoned for residential living twenty people lived there. The operator had rewired the building but his work didn’t conform to code. In the wake of the building’s burning down he rhetorically asks whether he is the one to be held responsible for all this–and then blames the landlord for not bearing the expense of upgrading a building that was never intended to be used in the way in which he used it.

    So, we have a doper hailing from south of the border who brought with him his Latin American distain for building codes coupled with his artistic liberal intolerance of being told what to do by stale, pale white guys who wrote the book on wiring. Who needs those guys anyway? Artists don’t color within the lines–they’re Artists! A deadly combination because electricity is going to do what it does, irrespective of your opinion of yourself. Liberals can’t get their minds around the concept that the world does what it does and doesn’t give a hoot about their inner state of being.

    Is he an illegal? Who knows. But it doesn’t matter because, legal or not, he brought his third world attitudes with him.

    Illegal’s very presence here shows their distain for Law so why would anyone expect them to conform to codes the purpose of which they don’t understand and which appear to their simple minds as unnecessary interference by the white establishment? Liberal enablers support them in their ignorance and arrogance. Ultimately, Obama and all liberals are to blame because their worldview can’t take anything seriously enough to let themselves be inconvenienced by white-man’s codes.

    White man’s codes embody the kernel of wisdom distilled from generations of experience and experiment. It is comforting to know that other honest human beings have endeavored to create standards which if conformed to, virtually guarantee that one won’t meet with misfortune. But, again, artists look at themselves as exceptional people–Supermen–uniquely placed above the humdrum of humanity. This kind of clueless arrogance is sure to bring disaster. The fire was all too predictable.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    There has been a lot made of the illegal residence part but it's my understanding that few if any of the residents died in the fire. Those killed were mostly upstairs at the illegal rave. Performance venues are where a lot of mass casualty fires occur - the fire spreads faster than the ability of a large group of people to evacuate. There is not that much to be gained by chasing after starving artists priced out of the conventional housing market but going after illegal entertainment venues is low hanging fruit - no one NEEDS to attend an illegal rave on the 2nd floor of a firetrap without proper exits. The dance party was apparently advertised on the interwebs. If Oakland had a functional government their firemen (who sit around the fire house doing nothing most of the time) could have been checking the internet every day (plus the walls of local cafes, etc.) for Oakland plus dance party, rave, etc. and then checking the advertised address against venues with proper occupancy permits and up to date inspections for group events. No permit, $5,000 fine plus a restraining order even before the event. In addition, post a $500 anonymous reward for the first person to rat out an illegal gathering - ten crackheads will rat it out within 5 minutes. Send a cop around to make sure that the event is really cancelled. Hold the event anyway and get hauled off to jail for endangering the public. You only have to do this a few times before all the fun goes out of the illegal rave business and scumballs like the sub-landlord have to think of some other scam. The "artists" can still have all the drug filled raves that they want, they just have to hold them somewhere that has fire exits and sprinklers, etc.
  129. @utu
    You forgot about the vodka in the diet of Estonians and Finn.

    My great aunt swore by it. Two vodkas shotglass a day, and she died @98 with no dementia. She hated to move to the retirement home at 93 (lack of privacy) and not be able to keep enjoying her vodka and her 4 woodburning “kakel ugns” that she lit everyday. Her husband died 30 years earlier. She always told me vodka cleared her brain of calcium deposits! Soooo…vodka?

    This is so lovely, for all of you to enjoy. In another life, I would love to be Tinja: Happy 99th I Day, Suomi!

    http://www.visitfinland.com/video/call-of-the-wild-tinja-and-her-dogs/

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    A little vodka is good, a lot is not. Some people can do 2 shots a day and leave it at that (which is healthier than not drinking at all based on many studies) but other people won't stop until the bottle is empty and that is not a recipe for a long life.
  130. @Anonymous
    I am deeply suspicious of the UK's ranking.
    And I am also puzzled by Israel's modest score.

    Israelis of European heritage score above average for Europe, but they represent only half of Israel. Arab Israelis, African Jews, and Jews of Middle Eastern heritage all drag down the average significantly.

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  131. @PandaAtWar
    The Explosives Prize, hard science or not, has been by and large a function of a small academic+ political + geopolitical complex affiliation, accumulation of $$$$$$$$ funding/project, accumulation GDP & college funding /head, personal age, national avg IQ, and total population size of prize-winner's country. It has existed in a random time frame (gee, the boys of 20th century were/are funny indeed) for a tiny period of time in the historical river. Using Explosives Prize to somehow rank or prove nation/people's historical innovation record takes a huuuuge risk of , for instance, to suggest that "Sun is in fact so insignificant and dark while the Moon is far bigger and bright in comparison" just because we're now at 7pm winter times in the north hemersphere...eeeerrr, interesting.

    Eh.Sure, the Nobel has its problems (e.g., how they failed to honor figures like Josiah Willard Gibbs, Oswald Avery, Colin MacLeod, Maclyn McCarty, etc).That being said, it still provides a fairly decent yardstick for achievements in STEM for the last century or so.

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  132. @Lagertha
    My great aunt swore by it. Two vodkas shotglass a day, and she died @98 with no dementia. She hated to move to the retirement home at 93 (lack of privacy) and not be able to keep enjoying her vodka and her 4 woodburning "kakel ugns" that she lit everyday. Her husband died 30 years earlier. She always told me vodka cleared her brain of calcium deposits! Soooo...vodka?

    This is so lovely, for all of you to enjoy. In another life, I would love to be Tinja: Happy 99th I Day, Suomi!

    www.visitfinland.com/video/call-of-the-wild-tinja-and-her-dogs/

    A little vodka is good, a lot is not. Some people can do 2 shots a day and leave it at that (which is healthier than not drinking at all based on many studies) but other people won’t stop until the bottle is empty and that is not a recipe for a long life.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    - know many of both types of drinkers....Finnish, American, Irish, Argentinian, Mexican, Taiwanese, Lebanese, Armenian, Australian (of course!), many other nationals from all over the world.

    My great aunt said this to me in the early 80's when alcohol and drugs were not really a topic of interest as far as health in her small town...she was born in the 1890's so she didn't pay any attention to stuff like that! - she didn't have a tv! She felt alcoholics were weak, for instance. She was like the girl, Tinja, in the video I sent you guys. Tinja, a fantasy daughter that I wished I had!
  133. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    By the way: a little amusing how the scores of France, England, Germany … are lowered by immigrants.
    As for Spain and Italy, there’s a wide IQ gap between their North and South, and the scores here are, probably, the overall median value. (There’s a large South-North IQ gap in Japan as well).

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    • Replies: @The Wobbly Guy
    Simple. We're not smarter. We're just awfully pragmatic in figuring out how to draw out that potential compared to other systems, and then putting in back breaking amounts of effort to making it happen.

    Not to mention the sheer amount of shadow education (private tuition) that goes on.
    , @Anonym
    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    My guess is that Singapore drew the smarter and more ambitious Chinese of their areas, rather than the average of the brightest areas. Singapore is, geographically, an ideal trading nexus. A lot of intelligent commerce-minded people migrated there. There may be a eugenic effect going on, as cost of living is high and raising children is not cheap. Lee Kwan Yew was probably the most race realist ruler of the modern era. Probably since Hitler tbh.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Singaporeans

    http://www.yoursingapore.com/travel-guide-tips/about-singapore.html
    , @anon

    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?
     
    selection for immigrants and fish diet (iodine) to maximize potential
    , @M
    As you suspect, there are significant differences between regions in Spain and Italy:

    http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888933433235

    (Regional PISA breakdown - excel format)

    Table B2.I.72 is instructive.

    Non-immigrant students - Mean PISA Science:

    Italy Bolzano - 522
    Italy Trento - 518
    Italy Lombaria - 510
    Italy Campania - 449

    Spain Madrid - 528
    Spain Castile Leon - 523
    Spain Navarre - 520
    Spain Aragon - 519
    Spain Catalonia - 518
    Spain Canary Islands - 479
    Spain Extremadura - 476
    Spain Andalusia - 475

    UK England - 520
    UK Northern Ireland - 509
    UK Scotland - 498
    UK Wales - 488

    Proximity to Switzerland is a fairly good predicator of European subregional scores... (With the Baltic exception).

    For benchmarking see http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888933433226

    Table I.7.4a Non-immigrant students - Mean PISA Science:

    Singapore - 550
    Japan - 539
    Switzerland - 527
    B-S-J-G (China) - 521
    Korea - 516
    France - 506
    Russia - 489
    Iceland - 478
    Greece - 461
    Chile - 449
    Uruguay - 437
    Romania - 435
  134. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Daniel H
    A quick back of the envelope calculation of the weighted averages of the Jewish and Arab populations indicates that Jews scored approximately 486 in the science PISA.

    How?
    Jordan's score (proxy for Palestinians) 409
    Israel's score (includes 25% Palestinian population) 467

    Calculate: .25 * 409 + .75 * (X, Jewish Score) = 467

    X = (467-.25*409)/.75= 486

    Not a surprising result, considering that more than half of Israel's population derive from Arab, middle eastern lands, where they had resided for eons, with no European admixture.

    Yes, for Israel we should really seek information about the scores for Jews vs Arabs and the scores for Ashkenazi Jews vs. other Jews. The national score is meaningless as it is for the United States.

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  135. @Anon
    As it happens, the Estonian government published a breakdown of their results. There aren't many non-European immigrants in Estonia so only ethnic split is between Estonians and the large Russian minority.

    Regionally, the top performer among provinces is the island of Hiiumaa in northwestern Estonia: Science 575, Math 549. It's the county with the highest percentage of ethnic Estonians (>98% according to wiki) but has a very small total population, about 9,000.

    Weakest performer is Ida-Viru in the northeast, bordering Russia and also the most Russian (>70%) county: Science 494 Math 491. Despite the huge gap, that's about the same result as Scotland gets. Both Russians and Estonians do much worse here than in the capital.

    Harju, the largest county, housing the capital and over 40% of Estonia's population (61% Estonian 31% Russian): Science 542 Math 529

    Ida-Viru and Harju are the only counties which aren't >80% ethnic Estonian.

    National science average: Estonian 544 Russian 500
    National math average: Estonian 526 Russian 497

    Capital (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 545, Russian 508
    Rural (1/3 of the population) math average: Estonian 514, Russian 491

    Hiiumaa looks like it’s rural, which is a switch for high scoring areas. Usually the high scorers are urban, or a rural area in which a university has been plopped down. (There’s a land grant university effect in the US. Enormous State U was sited on some likely farm land to provide a practical education to the state residents in 1870, and 150 years later it’s a leading research institution with smart children of faculty driving up test scores. )

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  136. @theo the kraut
    OT--news from Germany:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4004480/Pictured-Afghan-migrant-17-modelled-gangsta-rappers-raped-murdered-EU-official-s-daughter-met-work-refugees.html

    http://www.germanjoys.eu/2016/12/ambush-rapist-in-bochum-is-31-year-old-iraqi-migrant.html

    so creepy….awful – a serial rapist. Germany should deport his ass to a Saudi prison or something. Why did Merkel let these savages in? – well, I do know why, I just want her to “pay.”

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  137. @Steve Sailer
    Testing reading across languages seems harder to fine tune to make it fair to everybody than testing math.

    The PISA people do a lot of fix-it-in-post work where they toss out questions after the test that appear to have been culturally biased and the like. I assume they are pretty good at it and do it objectively, honestly, and competently. But how can I tell?

    I am sure their effort is commendable, but cultural bias is a problem of a different nature than the one I am talking about. The Chinese writing system, as one of the few completely logographic systems left in the world, has unique challenges absent in other systems. For an example, see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3549123. It is the only writing system in the world that demands the memorization of some 4,000 graphs before literacy can be achieved. For comparison, in Japanese that number is less than half, and in English, less than a hundredth.

    The effects of having to learn such a system cannot be easily determined from an education achievement test, which necessarily must test students in their native language, even if they attempt to avoid cultural bias in the questions. It would be satisfying to quantity this difference in terms of a negative score contribution, but I do not think the issue is that simple, because as the study above indicates, this difference can manifest in very strange ways – such as a significant negative correlation between reading scores and the use of one input method versus another during learning. Thus, there could be a significant generation difference in reading ability between Chinese children simply on the basis of adoption of electronic learning devices. Such differences say nothing about the children’s IQ, but inevitably end up in standardized testing results that are then used as proxies for IQ, leading to general confusion about whether the average IQ is dropping.

    It is for this reason that I think PISA results should always be taken with a grain of salt. It might be the best measure that exists for comparing contemporary international populations, but that still doesn’t make it an excellent measure. The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    You could make up a measure of "bookishness" by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be. High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.

     

    This is a good point. I've watched at first hand my daughter's education in Hong Kong schools, and it sure seems to me that learning Chinese takes up a hell of a lot of bandwidth. It's also likely that the need to pound away at memorizing characters for years on end seriously affects the way other academic subjects are taught and learned.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    BTW, thanks for the link to that paper -- very interesting.

    Daughter Calvinist and her friends text each other using a form of romanized Chinese they've essentially invented themselves, mixed up with loads of English loan words. They're therefore writing in Chinese, but using only English characters. I've asked her why they don't use actual Chinese characters, since they certainly could use a pinyin entry system if they don't want to draw out the actual characters, but she said it's just too much trouble to constantly have to take the extra step of choosing the right character out of the popup menu . . . .

    I wonder if the proliferation of pinyin and other romanized Chinese data entry schemes on smartphones will eventually break the millenia-long tradition of logographic Chinese writing.

    , @PandaAtWar
    As a native Mandarin speaker, Panda disgrees with you on "problem from writing system". e.g. Taiwan uses traditional form of Mandarin that takes even more energy out of brain than the mainland where a simplised form is used. So why TW is ahead of China in reading if Mandarin is the major problem? True that learning Madarin take an extra brain energy, yet it's entirely different matter when you're a native speaker. The low reading scores are due to mainly 2 areas according to todays'feedback from Taiwanese schools:

    http://udn.com/news/story/6886/2152853-%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98%E4%B8%80%E9%9B%A3%E9%8A%9C%E6%8E%A5-%E6%95%99%E5%B8%AB%E6%86%82%EF%BC%9A%E6%9C%83%E8%A6%BA%E5%9C%8B%E6%96%87%E5%83%8F%E6%95%B8%E5%AD%B8%E4%B8%80%E6%A8%A3%E9%9B%A3

    They are mainly 1) not used to reading long pieces of paper that covering wide arrange of topics. Exams in TW focus on much shorter content so pupils are used to reading and acting on shorter messages, particularly for the current smart-phone-generation. The youngsters are not even patient enough to read a long 3C product manual for instance; and 2) not used to computerised test format as all major local exams have been conducted using pens and paper withoutcomputers.

    Panda believes it's the same for S-B-J-G(China) to a large extent. They, out of several others, seem to be a better explaination than Mandarin language.

  138. @Peripatetic commenter

    In “A Troublesome Inheritance” Wade suggests the lack of innovative creativity by East Asians might be explained by a thousand-year-long Imperial Exam System that emphasized rote memorization etc.
     
    Well, that is everyone's go to explanation.

    However, Hong Kong used to have an entertainment industry capable of creating emptying streets all over Asia in the '80s.

    I suspect that the lack of 'innovations' has more to do with the lack of protection for merchants and inventors for thousands of years. Why put the effort into inventing some great new idea if the Emperor's friends could confiscate it all from you.

    That, too, sounds reasonable. but what do I know? I’m just a gap-toothed, ignorant deplorable

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  139. @ThreeCranes
    OT but the story about the Oakland rave burning is interesting because it condenses a number of points relevant to the split between liberals and conservatives.

    The operator leased the building which he sublet to tenants for use as an art colony. Although the building was not zoned for residential living twenty people lived there. The operator had rewired the building but his work didn't conform to code. In the wake of the building's burning down he rhetorically asks whether he is the one to be held responsible for all this--and then blames the landlord for not bearing the expense of upgrading a building that was never intended to be used in the way in which he used it.

    So, we have a doper hailing from south of the border who brought with him his Latin American distain for building codes coupled with his artistic liberal intolerance of being told what to do by stale, pale white guys who wrote the book on wiring. Who needs those guys anyway? Artists don't color within the lines--they're Artists! A deadly combination because electricity is going to do what it does, irrespective of your opinion of yourself. Liberals can't get their minds around the concept that the world does what it does and doesn't give a hoot about their inner state of being.

    Is he an illegal? Who knows. But it doesn't matter because, legal or not, he brought his third world attitudes with him.

    Illegal's very presence here shows their distain for Law so why would anyone expect them to conform to codes the purpose of which they don't understand and which appear to their simple minds as unnecessary interference by the white establishment? Liberal enablers support them in their ignorance and arrogance. Ultimately, Obama and all liberals are to blame because their worldview can't take anything seriously enough to let themselves be inconvenienced by white-man's codes.

    White man's codes embody the kernel of wisdom distilled from generations of experience and experiment. It is comforting to know that other honest human beings have endeavored to create standards which if conformed to, virtually guarantee that one won't meet with misfortune. But, again, artists look at themselves as exceptional people--Supermen--uniquely placed above the humdrum of humanity. This kind of clueless arrogance is sure to bring disaster. The fire was all too predictable.

    There has been a lot made of the illegal residence part but it’s my understanding that few if any of the residents died in the fire. Those killed were mostly upstairs at the illegal rave. Performance venues are where a lot of mass casualty fires occur – the fire spreads faster than the ability of a large group of people to evacuate. There is not that much to be gained by chasing after starving artists priced out of the conventional housing market but going after illegal entertainment venues is low hanging fruit – no one NEEDS to attend an illegal rave on the 2nd floor of a firetrap without proper exits. The dance party was apparently advertised on the interwebs. If Oakland had a functional government their firemen (who sit around the fire house doing nothing most of the time) could have been checking the internet every day (plus the walls of local cafes, etc.) for Oakland plus dance party, rave, etc. and then checking the advertised address against venues with proper occupancy permits and up to date inspections for group events. No permit, $5,000 fine plus a restraining order even before the event. In addition, post a $500 anonymous reward for the first person to rat out an illegal gathering – ten crackheads will rat it out within 5 minutes. Send a cop around to make sure that the event is really cancelled. Hold the event anyway and get hauled off to jail for endangering the public. You only have to do this a few times before all the fun goes out of the illegal rave business and scumballs like the sub-landlord have to think of some other scam. The “artists” can still have all the drug filled raves that they want, they just have to hold them somewhere that has fire exits and sprinklers, etc.

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  140. @Jack D
    A little vodka is good, a lot is not. Some people can do 2 shots a day and leave it at that (which is healthier than not drinking at all based on many studies) but other people won't stop until the bottle is empty and that is not a recipe for a long life.

    - know many of both types of drinkers….Finnish, American, Irish, Argentinian, Mexican, Taiwanese, Lebanese, Armenian, Australian (of course!), many other nationals from all over the world.

    My great aunt said this to me in the early 80′s when alcohol and drugs were not really a topic of interest as far as health in her small town…she was born in the 1890′s so she didn’t pay any attention to stuff like that! – she didn’t have a tv! She felt alcoholics were weak, for instance. She was like the girl, Tinja, in the video I sent you guys. Tinja, a fantasy daughter that I wished I had!

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  141. A few thoughts. Why did Asian American scores on PISA change so much relative to 2012? I believe back then they broke out Pacific Islanders as a separate group, did they continue to do so this year? Regardless, interestingly, if we interpret these numbers at face value, Asian Americans edged out white Americans in reading this time around, but were edged out in math and science, which seems totally opposite of what you typically see from other standardized testing. IIRC, the 2012 Asian American PISA numbers showed a significant Asian American edge relative to all other ethnic groups?

    Also someone else pointed out already that the aggregate China group has a significantly higher percentage of low performers (10.9%) relative to other high performing nations. Suggests perhaps that there’s some lumping in effect here of high performing and low performing ethnic sub-groups?

    I think despite aggregate China’s lower performance relative to Shanghai’s stratospheric 2012 scores, the general picture is more or less the same. East Asian nations typically exhibit the strongest performance in math, followed by science, and then reading.

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  142. @Anon
    Not let them breed ?
    In 21th century, it is illegal if you don't allow someone to breed. I have been to UAE and Indian construction workers settle there, have kids and families.
    You have Indian nurses in UAE and Qatar that are far from elite. Hotel owners and shop keepers who migrate without any college degree.
    Nice try trying to prove ever good score must be done by elites.
    What's your next excuse ? They asked some top university students from india to make a short trip to UAE and take the test with fake names ?

    I am going to assume that you are, in addition to being grossly dishonest, also blatantly stupid. 21st century it may be but the social mores of the Gulf Arabs are not quite akin to that of Canadians. They actively can and do suppress immigrant fertility and are not quite so reckless as to allow their imported helot labour to potentially outbreed them.

    Your lie that Indian labor can actually settle down and have children and family in the Gulf is repudiated by a simple review of the demographic profile of the Gulf States.

    For example, the UAE has a gender ratio for 0-14 years of age of 635k males to 606k females. A natural ratio. However for the ages between 15-24, the upper bounds of which begin to include younger migrant labour, the ratio is now 477k to 325k men to women. For ages 25-54, the prime adult working age population the ratio 2.768 million to 864k. There are more than three times as many adult men in the UAE than there are adult women. Factor in that the plurality if not majority of adult women in Dubai are Arab muslims, this means that the immigrant labor pool is probably 5:1 male to female. Furthermore, the majority of the immigrant women are domestic servants from places like the Philippines and Indonesia who work and live at the homes of elites they are essentially socially segregated from the majority of male labourers that come from India, Bangladesh, Nepal, and Pakistan.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    I would suggest you to read "Qatar School Rankings" in previous edition of PISA. 10/30 top schools were Indian that only hire Indian kids (out of 150 schools in Qatar).

    If Indians in UAE and Qatar are not breeding (which keeps up the PISA score, indeed your stupidity is amazing), then why you have 10 schools out of top 30 schools that are only reserved for Indians ?

    And even those schools hire 3x more students than rest of the schools in Qatar.
    So, at school kid level, Indians are equally represented as per their population size.

    Forget about Qatar and UAE.
    Let me take you to Singapore.

    https://themigrationist.net/2014/01/08/riot-in-singapores-little-india/
    "Of these, 760,000 are ‘low-skilled’ male migrant workers on work permit."

    "It has been estimated that South Asian men number around 300,000, they fall under the ‘low-skilled’ category and are hired largely in the construction industry."

    http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-singapores-immigrant-population-brings-policy-challenges
    "Due to policies instituted in the 1990s to recruit the highly skilled in nontraditional source countries, however, the majority of skilled workers (apart from Malaysians) are now from China and India".

    http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/news/population-in-brief-2014.pdf
    Page 8: "Foreign employment growth was mainly driven by the construction sector."

    These are from Singapore government websites.

    It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.
    And Indian fertility rate in Singapore is much higher at 2.3 kid/women.

    If you happen to read about Singapore's PISA, bottom 5% has score of 430. Suppose all these are Indians (worst case scenario, even though Indians score better than Malays), that would still mean that kids of Indian construction workers have indeed scored 420+.

    Let me take you to UK:-

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.
    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.

    Let me take you to South Africa:-

    It is undisputed that Indians came as slaves in British Empire. They measure 3 points higher than colored, and 0.5 standard deviation below whites as per IQ tests.

    So, again you have non-elites scoring at 92-94 after Flynn is done on them.
  143. @Lathdrinor
    Chinese results seem persistently dragged down by reading. Given the nature of their writing system it is probably to be expected, since it is demonstrably much harder to master than those based on alphabets. Hong Kong and Singapore both use English as a primary language from what I understand, although I have not looked into whether their tests were done in English. But that might be a reason for why they out perform China significantly in reading.

    If we ignore the reading score, China's science and math scores are both significantly ahead of the OECD average, which reflects where we'd expect China's most developed regions to be - that is, around the level of Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. Further progress is probably possible given the example of Taiwan - listed as Chinese Taipei - which has a similar depressed reading score but is even higher above the OECD average in math and science.

    Unfortunately, it is never possible to fully control for the effects of reading as any standardized testing that is not a formal IQ test of the Raven's Progressive Matrices type will be biased by the written medium in which it is given. At the end of the day, PISA is an education achievement test, and only an above average proxy for intelligence testing. It can never substitute for intelligence tests altogether.

    All tests in Singapore are administered in English unless they are explicitly non-English language subjects eg. Tamil literature, china studies in chinese.

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  144. @Anatoly Karlin
    I am in London and he even beats me to it.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/803819002694922241

    Heckuva job, Steve! :)

    On the day of PISA,the most dangerous place to be is between Great Helmsman and his PC!

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  145. @Lathdrinor
    I am sure their effort is commendable, but cultural bias is a problem of a different nature than the one I am talking about. The Chinese writing system, as one of the few completely logographic systems left in the world, has unique challenges absent in other systems. For an example, see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3549123. It is the only writing system in the world that demands the memorization of some 4,000 graphs before literacy can be achieved. For comparison, in Japanese that number is less than half, and in English, less than a hundredth.

    The effects of having to learn such a system cannot be easily determined from an education achievement test, which necessarily must test students in their native language, even if they attempt to avoid cultural bias in the questions. It would be satisfying to quantity this difference in terms of a negative score contribution, but I do not think the issue is that simple, because as the study above indicates, this difference can manifest in very strange ways - such as a significant negative correlation between reading scores and the use of one input method versus another during learning. Thus, there could be a significant generation difference in reading ability between Chinese children simply on the basis of adoption of electronic learning devices. Such differences say nothing about the children's IQ, but inevitably end up in standardized testing results that are then used as proxies for IQ, leading to general confusion about whether the average IQ is dropping.

    It is for this reason that I think PISA results should always be taken with a grain of salt. It might be the best measure that exists for comparing contemporary international populations, but that still doesn't make it an excellent measure. The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.

    You could make up a measure of “bookishness” by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be. High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    You could make up a measure of “bookishness” by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be.
     
    That's certainly the case for Mexicans:


    The Country That Stopped Reading

    Nowadays more children attend school than ever before, but they learn much less. They learn almost nothing. The proportion of the Mexican population that is literate is going up, but in absolute numbers, there are more illiterate people in Mexico now than there were 12 years ago. Even if baseline literacy, the ability to read a street sign or news bulletin, is rising, the practice of reading an actual book is not. Once a reasonably well-educated country, Mexico took the penultimate spot, out of 108 countries, in a Unesco assessment of reading habits a few years ago.
     
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/opinion/the-country-that-stopped-reading.html
    , @syonredux

    High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.
     
    That might explain the popularity of the " light novel" in Japan:

    A light novel (ライトノベル raito noberu?) is a style of Japanese novel primarily, but not exclusively, targeting middle- and high-school students (young adult demographic).[1][2] "Light novel" is a wasei-eigo, or a Japanese term formed from words in the English language. Such short, light novels are often called ranobe (ラノベ?)[3] or LN in the West. They are typically not more than 40,000–50,000 words long (the shorter ones being equivalent to a novella in US publishing terms), are rarely more than a few hundred pages, often have dense publishing schedules, are usually published in bunkobon size (A6, 10.5 cm × 14.8 cm), and are often illustrated,[4] mostly with manga style art. The text is often serialized in anthology magazines before collection in book form.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel
    , @Jack D
    Bookishness varies between Asian countries: According to the UNESCO study, Chinese people read only 4.39 books per year on average, compared with 11 in South Korea, 8.4 in Japan, 7 in the U.S. and 2 in Mexico. So Chinese are less bookish than Americans, Japanese and Koreans more.
    , @Anonymous
    What else is there to do on a 18hr long cold, dark evening?

    Actually there is playing soccer in a nice brightly-lit, warm, indoor space. And get in practice, lots and lots of practice. And thus beating the over-paid ponces of England.
  146. @Steve Sailer
    You could make up a measure of "bookishness" by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be. High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.

    You could make up a measure of “bookishness” by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be.

    That’s certainly the case for Mexicans:

    The Country That Stopped Reading

    Nowadays more children attend school than ever before, but they learn much less. They learn almost nothing. The proportion of the Mexican population that is literate is going up, but in absolute numbers, there are more illiterate people in Mexico now than there were 12 years ago. Even if baseline literacy, the ability to read a street sign or news bulletin, is rising, the practice of reading an actual book is not. Once a reasonably well-educated country, Mexico took the penultimate spot, out of 108 countries, in a Unesco assessment of reading habits a few years ago.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/opinion/the-country-that-stopped-reading.html

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  147. @Steve Sailer
    You could make up a measure of "bookishness" by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be. High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.

    High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.

    That might explain the popularity of the ” light novel” in Japan:

    A light novel (ライトノベル raito noberu?) is a style of Japanese novel primarily, but not exclusively, targeting middle- and high-school students (young adult demographic).[1][2] “Light novel” is a wasei-eigo, or a Japanese term formed from words in the English language. Such short, light novels are often called ranobe (ラノベ?)[3] or LN in the West. They are typically not more than 40,000–50,000 words long (the shorter ones being equivalent to a novella in US publishing terms), are rarely more than a few hundred pages, often have dense publishing schedules, are usually published in bunkobon size (A6, 10.5 cm × 14.8 cm), and are often illustrated,[4] mostly with manga style art. The text is often serialized in anthology magazines before collection in book form.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel

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  148. @Chrisnonymous
    I don't know how precisely to compare Nobel prizes to one another, but here are a few observations:

    1- The invention of LEDs led to 3 of those prizes. Essentially, one discovery, 3 prizes.

    2- The underground Kamiokande neutrino detector was built in the 1980s, when money was easy to come by in Japan. The detector is responsible for 2 of those prizes. Should the prizes have gone to the physicists or Japan's successful industrialists?

    3- Some of the prizes in medicine have gone to people who explicating "mechanisms". To me, this sounds like the kind of medical discovery that involves the highest labor-to-ingenuity ratio.

    I don't know anything about chemistry. Does anybody have an opinion on the 2 prizes shared re palladium-related reactions?

    Of course, the original (white) scientist who discovered (and correctly explained) LED lights in the first place got no Nobel. Which goes to show that Nobels are not always the best criteria.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Red and green LEDs were easy to achieve and not useful for general lighting. You could use them as little indicator lamps and that was about it. The invention of the blue LED (which no one could figure out for a long time) made it possible to use LEDs for general lighting and now they are on the way to replacing the incandescent bulb and saving a vast amount of energy.
  149. @andy
    that's correct, in Argentina you have european descent mostly in the capital city of buenos aires, buenos aires province and the patagonian provinces. Outside that, in greater buenos aires and the northern provinces, a lot of amerindian blood.

    There are a lot of Ukrainian settlements in northern Argentina though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Argentines

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  150. @Lathdrinor
    Chinese results seem persistently dragged down by reading. Given the nature of their writing system it is probably to be expected, since it is demonstrably much harder to master than those based on alphabets. Hong Kong and Singapore both use English as a primary language from what I understand, although I have not looked into whether their tests were done in English. But that might be a reason for why they out perform China significantly in reading.

    If we ignore the reading score, China's science and math scores are both significantly ahead of the OECD average, which reflects where we'd expect China's most developed regions to be - that is, around the level of Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. Further progress is probably possible given the example of Taiwan - listed as Chinese Taipei - which has a similar depressed reading score but is even higher above the OECD average in math and science.

    Unfortunately, it is never possible to fully control for the effects of reading as any standardized testing that is not a formal IQ test of the Raven's Progressive Matrices type will be biased by the written medium in which it is given. At the end of the day, PISA is an education achievement test, and only an above average proxy for intelligence testing. It can never substitute for intelligence tests altogether.

    You people know that the imperial civil service exam contained zero math, or at least vastly emphasized subjects like Confucian analects and history and poetry writing, which would fall under liberal arts right? Why hasn’t this been mentioned in this blog even ONCE?

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    You just did, but this makes the Chinese achievements in math even more impressive - most of their exposure to math has been in the last century or so and they have completely caught up.

    The Chinese did have their own mathematics. They had a proof of the Pythagorean Theorem before Pythagoras.
  151. @Peripatetic commenter

    In “A Troublesome Inheritance” Wade suggests the lack of innovative creativity by East Asians might be explained by a thousand-year-long Imperial Exam System that emphasized rote memorization etc.
     
    Well, that is everyone's go to explanation.

    However, Hong Kong used to have an entertainment industry capable of creating emptying streets all over Asia in the '80s.

    I suspect that the lack of 'innovations' has more to do with the lack of protection for merchants and inventors for thousands of years. Why put the effort into inventing some great new idea if the Emperor's friends could confiscate it all from you.

    Does HK have any industry nowadays aside from finance related stuff and real estate speculation, quite impressive where all those nobel laureate are going eh? It used to have some industry like textiles but it all went to China despite HK keeping the HKD artificially weak.

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    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    It used to have some industry like textiles but it all went to China despite HK keeping the HKD artificially weak.

     

    It's true most HK industry moved north of the border, but HK has for a very long time maintained a peg between its dollar and the US dollar.
  152. @Jack D
    The rise of S. Korea in general has been pretty amazing. At the end of the Korean War, S. Korea was a folkloric kind of place like Nepal or something, where subsistence farmers in funny clothes rode around on ox carts and scavenged in the dumpsters of American Army bases. The reason that there are lots of Koreans in America is that Korea was a really poor country. Hyundai, now bigger than Ford, produced its 1st homegrown design car only in the 70s and built licensed (from Ford) cars for only a few years before that. At that point Ford had a 70 year head start in the auto business. My father used to say "wanting is better than knowing". The Koreans really WANTED it.

    Uhm no the only reason why the Koreans stole the march from the Japanese in cars is that the KRW was a lot weaker than the JPY for a while, like from 2010 to 2012.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Wow, that's really amazing - a 2 year window of favorable exchange rates and they were able to get ahead of the world leaders in auto manufacturing. Someone should tell the Cambodians and the Filipinos about this.
  153. And Samsung basically pirated the iphone

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Not really. They use the ARM chip and huge amounts of technology developed around Cambridge in the UK - the silicon valley of the mobile phone - all subcontract for other brands. Much of Samsung and LG's LCD screen technology was transferred from Russian engineers after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
  154. @yss
    Uhm no the only reason why the Koreans stole the march from the Japanese in cars is that the KRW was a lot weaker than the JPY for a while, like from 2010 to 2012.

    Wow, that’s really amazing – a 2 year window of favorable exchange rates and they were able to get ahead of the world leaders in auto manufacturing. Someone should tell the Cambodians and the Filipinos about this.

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  155. @Anatoly Karlin

    Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren’t neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.
     
    Probably not much.

    Finland managed to avoid going Red and hasn't generated many Great People, either due to personality reasons or a lower intelligence S.D. I suspect the same applies to their close relatives the Eesti.

    When I think famous Estonians the first four who come to mind are Mikhail Tal (chess), Sergey Dovlatov (excellent writer, but who's connection with Estonia was fleeting), and Jaan Tallinn (Skype inventor). So only 1/3 of them are Estonians.

    I recall that the richest Estonian is an ethnic Russian.

    Tal was Latvian, perhaps you mean Paul Keres? Also, who is the fourth Estonian? In any case Keres was AFAIK Estonian too so that’s 2/3.

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  156. @goatweed
    Ethnic split for Singapore test results?

    How did the Haredi do in Israel?

    When did we in the US start taking the tests?

    There are at most a handful of Haredim in Israel who would have participated in PISA.

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  157. @Anonymous
    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    By the way: a little amusing how the scores of France, England, Germany ... are lowered by immigrants.
    As for Spain and Italy, there's a wide IQ gap between their North and South, and the scores here are, probably, the overall median value. (There's a large South-North IQ gap in Japan as well).

    Simple. We’re not smarter. We’re just awfully pragmatic in figuring out how to draw out that potential compared to other systems, and then putting in back breaking amounts of effort to making it happen.

    Not to mention the sheer amount of shadow education (private tuition) that goes on.

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  158. @inertial
    Of course, the original (white) scientist who discovered (and correctly explained) LED lights in the first place got no Nobel. Which goes to show that Nobels are not always the best criteria.

    Red and green LEDs were easy to achieve and not useful for general lighting. You could use them as little indicator lamps and that was about it. The invention of the blue LED (which no one could figure out for a long time) made it possible to use LEDs for general lighting and now they are on the way to replacing the incandescent bulb and saving a vast amount of energy.

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  159. @bsbsbsbsbs
    You people know that the imperial civil service exam contained zero math, or at least vastly emphasized subjects like Confucian analects and history and poetry writing, which would fall under liberal arts right? Why hasn't this been mentioned in this blog even ONCE?

    You just did, but this makes the Chinese achievements in math even more impressive – most of their exposure to math has been in the last century or so and they have completely caught up.

    The Chinese did have their own mathematics. They had a proof of the Pythagorean Theorem before Pythagoras.

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  160. @Steve Sailer
    You could make up a measure of "bookishness" by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be. High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.

    Bookishness varies between Asian countries: According to the UNESCO study, Chinese people read only 4.39 books per year on average, compared with 11 in South Korea, 8.4 in Japan, 7 in the U.S. and 2 in Mexico. So Chinese are less bookish than Americans, Japanese and Koreans more.

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  161. @Lagertha
    OMG! The Navy pilot, he's not TD by any chance?!

    Those are not his initials, if that’s what you mean by TD.

    He liked to show off on his dirt bike in the mountains. Becoming a fighter pilot made sense. Driving airliners around probably bores him.

    BTW I think of myself as one of the least successful of the bunch, but I’m doing all right. In retrospect, I think I just lived in a town with a lot of smart people.

    Congrats again on your high school’s results!

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  162. @PandaAtWar
    Panda said "1,000 miles starts with the first step". A terrible WIPO innovation proxy is by all means 1,000 times better than that buzz proxy, or you think otherwise?

    tl;dr: Panda's arse is a trade secret, or one of those most valuable innovations more often than not, smart or no is a topic of Vogue magazine, not a PISA column. lol

    Conceding data about patents are poor proxies for data about innovation while suggesting they are nevertheless the best we can do is risible. All recorded history and our lying eyes provide a surfeit of better data regarding the veritable deluge of invention and creativiry by Europeans and our diaspora versus the dearth of it by Asians and theirs. Cf. gunpowder and paper versus essentially every other significant technological advancement. (Nevermind the arts and humanities.) I’d start an illustraive list but I don’t have that kind of time, and there is no honour in carrying on ungraciously after victory: just look to the example of how gracious Douglas MacArthur was to the vanquished after the flight of the Enola Gay (speaking of Occidental innovations over Oriental roboticism…). That example implicates the Japanese, and you imply allegiance to the Chinese, but then, even the Japanese have achieved far greater innovation and success than your ilk.

    A dictum: military technology is often a good reflection of a people’s comparative innovation, because it is for obvious reasons not so readily shared, and more closely guarded from theft (and the Chinese steal intellectual property like nobody’s business!). Yet the Chinese cannot so much as field an aircraft carrier worthy to be considered one by modern standards.

    Panda, I don’t like the cut of your jib, and I don’t mind saying so; my distaste stems in large part from my suspicion you are a parastic immivader, gleefully deriding the U.S.A. to praise China, despite having fled the latter to dwell in the former. Revealed preferences, hypocrisy, actions inconsistent with words…Hell’s bells, a whole host of contemptible implications follow if my suspicion is correct.

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    • Replies: @5371
    Accusations of "intellectual property theft", "copying" and "cheating" are always the resort of those who have no other argument. Winners don't waste their time whining like that.
    , @PandaAtWar
    hmmmmm, that typical Stormfronter way of bifurcation of yours, Panda hates to say, is too robotic, persistent as always nonetheless, and without a trace of innovation...

    Shall Panda interpret your full-on personal attack is your particularly subtle way of throwing in the towel? Thank you and pls go on. LoL

    , @Against Eurocentric BS.
    I think you are suffering from a severe case of the much- debunked and outdated Eurocentric hallucinations. You sound like a typical ignorant Eurocentric person who knows very little about the monumental achievements of China but loves to belittle them. The only reason the Western culture has dominated for the last 200 years is that it's power has ascended greatly since the Industrial Revolution. Things are going to change in this century

    Before the Industrial Revolution, Europe was basically a copying and adaptive culture. The Greek civilization was NOT an ORIGINAL civilization like the Chinese civilization.

    The Greek civilization was heavily influenced by both Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations ( Greek myths and religion had their roots in various Mesopotamian and Egyptian beliefs).. The Greek architecture and medicine were adopted from Egypt and ancient Greeks extensively borrowed from Babylonians ( the ancestors of the present day Arabs) for it's astronomy and mathematics and even it's alphabet was based on the non- European semitic Phoenician alphabet. How about Christianity which was originated among non-European semitic people?. As you can see, the Greeks were the biggest copycats in the ancient world. During this ancient time period, in China there were Confucius, Laozi, Mozi, Zhangzi, Mencius, Sun tsu, etc whose thoughts were at least as great as those of any Greek thinkers. If anybody wants to find out the outstanding technological achievements of China up to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, they should read SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA by Joseph Needham which was picked as one of the 100 best English language non-fictions of the 20th century by Random House. I'm going to list some of many Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to the backward Europe through direct, indirect, stimulus diffusion before the Industrial Revolution (some of the Chinese technologies were even transmitted at the late stage of the Industrial Revolution). China invented compass, rudder, leeboard, centerboard, multi-mast, watertight compartments which Europe didn't use for their ships until the late 18th century. Without adopting all these Chinese inventions, the European voyages of discovery wouldn't have been possible. Also China invented not only paper but also printing including the movable type about 400 years before Gutenberg who had been vey likely influenced by the movable type developments in China and Korea beforehand, developed one. Without assimilating these Chinese inventions, the SPREAD of Renaissance would have been extremely difficult. China invented not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon, rocket including multi-stage ones, both land and sea mines, bomb, even hand grenade. All these Chinese military technologies were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect diffusion . Can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions? China even invented the mechanical clock in the 8th century with the invention of the ESCAPEMENT FOR EXACT TIME-KEEPING. This Chinese mechanical clock technology was first transmitted to the Islamic civilization then to the Moslem-occupied Spain. After assimilating the previous Chinese and Moslem clock -making technologies, in the early 14th century Europe finally developed more advanced mechanical clock, run by falling weights or springs rather than falling water or mercury. Even the European Enlightenment was heavily influenced by many of Chinese thoughts. As a matter of fact, many Enlightenment thinkers such as Montaigne, Leibniz, Voltaire, Quesnay, etc. were enamored with the ancient Chinese idea of mandate of heaven that essentially declared that an UNFIT king should be overthrown. These European scholars thought the mandate of heaven idea was much more enlightening than the rigid and primitive European idea of the divine right of king to rule forever no matter what. There is no doubt this Chinese idea of mandate of heaven influenced the French Revolution. Also these European thinkers had a high opinion of the Chinese bureaucratic system based on meritocracy through civil service examinations, while denouncing the privileges of the European hereditary aristocracy. Even the concept of LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM, also known as FREE- MARKET CAPITALISM (the most Ideal form of capitalism) was borne around the 6th century BC in China. Both Taoists and Confucian scholars believed in little or no state intervention in economic activities. From about 2nd century BC on, Chinese dynasties practiced free market economy while only intervening from time to time in iron and salt enterprises and also by and large they kept taxes low. The Chinese idea of laissez-faire capitalism greatly influenced the French economist Quesnay who in turn influenced Adam Smith. Also in the 18th century all things Chinese were a rage in Europe. Europeans copied Chinese architecture, interior decoration, tea-drinking, etc. As you can see it was the Europeans copying Chinese, not the other way around. It's no accident China and India were the two BIGGEST economies in the world from the 1st century to the end of the 18th century. Also China invented blast furnace, coking - coal, so called- Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens' Steel process, weaving machine( the British weaving machine was based on Italian design that in turn was based on original Chinese model. So in other words, the design of Chinese silk weaving machine was first transmitted to Italy in the13th century and later to Britain by the way of Italy but British modified the machine for the production of cotton fabrics ), drilling techniques for oil and natural gas ( China drilled for natural gas and transferred it through pipelines for heating and lighting starting in the 4th century BC, on the other hand Europe didn't use natural gas until the 19th century but again Britain was the first country in Europe to use natural gas in 1798). All these Chinese inventions were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect or stimulus diffusion. Without using all these Chinese inventions, the Industrial Revolution wouldn't have been possible. Even in agriculture, the backward Europe got modern horse collar, moldboard cast iron plow, rotary winnowing fan, MULTI -seed drill technologies and the techniques of row cultivation of crops and intense hoeing by horse-drawn hoes from China( with the exception of the horse collar which Europe adopted in the 8th century, the rest of the Chinese agricultural technologies were adopted by Europe only in the 18th century). This really shows how backward Europe was at the time. By adopting all these Chinese technologies, Britain could bring about an agricultural revolution in the 18th century These are just some of the ground- breaking Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to Europe before the Industrial Revolution. Even SCIENCE was born in the 11th century in the Islamic civilization with the birth of the EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD ( all ancient civilizations were pre-scientific) The backwards Europeans translated a very large amount of Islamic scientific writings into Latin and extensively studied them thus bringing SCIENCE to Europe. Specially Alhazen's masterpiece, BOOK OF OPTICS which is recognized as the first scientific treatise in the world by many scholars had profound effects on many European scientists. Without the influence of the Islamic science, there would have been no Scientific Revolution in Europe. The relatively primitive Europeans learned not only science but also advanced math from the Islamic civilization in the Middle Ages. Also the Islamic architecture and literature greatly influenced Europe. As you can see Europe was basically a copying and adaptive culture before the Industrial Revolution. Even though Europe overtook China in SCIENCE in the 17th century. China was still ahead of Europe in TECHNOLOGY until about the end of the 18th century because there was disconnect between nascent scientific theories and implementing them for technological developments. Before the Industrial Revolution, almost all the technological improvements were made by craftsmen or technicians not by scientists. Even ancient China was far ahead of the Greco-Roman civilization in technology. For example, China was the only culture in the world that could melt iron ore by the 5th century BC. But Europe couldn't melt iron ore until the late 14th century ( even though the blast furnace technology was known in some parts of the Scandinavia in the 8th century, it wasn't widespread) . This ancient Chinese ability to melt iron ore made all the difference in the production of superior weapons, farming and industrial tools. According to Robert Temple, a well-respected scholar of the Oriental Studies, more than half of the inventions that laid foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution came from China. So all the narrow-minded Eurocentric people should remember that the Western scientific and technological achievements in the last 200 years were built on the prior Chinese and Islamic accomplishments. It just didn't happen in a vacuum. The problem with the outdated Eurocentric people is that if Europe developed the same thing which China had already invented earlier, they falsely claim it as an "independent" European invention, instead of acknowledging the very strong possibility that Europe got the Chinese technology by direct or indirect or stimulus diffusion ( the movable type is a good example). If China had not declined in the 19th century and had a more powerful second industrial revolution ( China's first industrial revolution--- also world's first industrial revolution occurred in the 11th century under Sung dynasty), we might be speaking Mandarin now, instead of English also studying Confucius, Laozi, Mozi, Mencius, instead of such overrated ancient Greeks as Socrates, Aristotle, Plato. What we are seeing now is the 200-- year Western domination is coming to an end and the world is going BACK to the original Chinese predominance in economy and technology. The last 200 years of the Western domination was an ABERRATION from the long-running Chinese super achievements.
  163. @Lathdrinor
    I am sure their effort is commendable, but cultural bias is a problem of a different nature than the one I am talking about. The Chinese writing system, as one of the few completely logographic systems left in the world, has unique challenges absent in other systems. For an example, see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3549123. It is the only writing system in the world that demands the memorization of some 4,000 graphs before literacy can be achieved. For comparison, in Japanese that number is less than half, and in English, less than a hundredth.

    The effects of having to learn such a system cannot be easily determined from an education achievement test, which necessarily must test students in their native language, even if they attempt to avoid cultural bias in the questions. It would be satisfying to quantity this difference in terms of a negative score contribution, but I do not think the issue is that simple, because as the study above indicates, this difference can manifest in very strange ways - such as a significant negative correlation between reading scores and the use of one input method versus another during learning. Thus, there could be a significant generation difference in reading ability between Chinese children simply on the basis of adoption of electronic learning devices. Such differences say nothing about the children's IQ, but inevitably end up in standardized testing results that are then used as proxies for IQ, leading to general confusion about whether the average IQ is dropping.

    It is for this reason that I think PISA results should always be taken with a grain of salt. It might be the best measure that exists for comparing contemporary international populations, but that still doesn't make it an excellent measure. The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.

    The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.

    This is a good point. I’ve watched at first hand my daughter’s education in Hong Kong schools, and it sure seems to me that learning Chinese takes up a hell of a lot of bandwidth. It’s also likely that the need to pound away at memorizing characters for years on end seriously affects the way other academic subjects are taught and learned.

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  164. @ffer
    Does HK have any industry nowadays aside from finance related stuff and real estate speculation, quite impressive where all those nobel laureate are going eh? It used to have some industry like textiles but it all went to China despite HK keeping the HKD artificially weak.

    It used to have some industry like textiles but it all went to China despite HK keeping the HKD artificially weak.

    It’s true most HK industry moved north of the border, but HK has for a very long time maintained a peg between its dollar and the US dollar.

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  165. @Anonymous
    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    By the way: a little amusing how the scores of France, England, Germany ... are lowered by immigrants.
    As for Spain and Italy, there's a wide IQ gap between their North and South, and the scores here are, probably, the overall median value. (There's a large South-North IQ gap in Japan as well).

    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    My guess is that Singapore drew the smarter and more ambitious Chinese of their areas, rather than the average of the brightest areas. Singapore is, geographically, an ideal trading nexus. A lot of intelligent commerce-minded people migrated there. There may be a eugenic effect going on, as cost of living is high and raising children is not cheap. Lee Kwan Yew was probably the most race realist ruler of the modern era. Probably since Hitler tbh.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Singaporeans

    http://www.yoursingapore.com/travel-guide-tips/about-singapore.html

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  166. @Lathdrinor
    I am sure their effort is commendable, but cultural bias is a problem of a different nature than the one I am talking about. The Chinese writing system, as one of the few completely logographic systems left in the world, has unique challenges absent in other systems. For an example, see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3549123. It is the only writing system in the world that demands the memorization of some 4,000 graphs before literacy can be achieved. For comparison, in Japanese that number is less than half, and in English, less than a hundredth.

    The effects of having to learn such a system cannot be easily determined from an education achievement test, which necessarily must test students in their native language, even if they attempt to avoid cultural bias in the questions. It would be satisfying to quantity this difference in terms of a negative score contribution, but I do not think the issue is that simple, because as the study above indicates, this difference can manifest in very strange ways - such as a significant negative correlation between reading scores and the use of one input method versus another during learning. Thus, there could be a significant generation difference in reading ability between Chinese children simply on the basis of adoption of electronic learning devices. Such differences say nothing about the children's IQ, but inevitably end up in standardized testing results that are then used as proxies for IQ, leading to general confusion about whether the average IQ is dropping.

    It is for this reason that I think PISA results should always be taken with a grain of salt. It might be the best measure that exists for comparing contemporary international populations, but that still doesn't make it an excellent measure. The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.

    BTW, thanks for the link to that paper — very interesting.

    Daughter Calvinist and her friends text each other using a form of romanized Chinese they’ve essentially invented themselves, mixed up with loads of English loan words. They’re therefore writing in Chinese, but using only English characters. I’ve asked her why they don’t use actual Chinese characters, since they certainly could use a pinyin entry system if they don’t want to draw out the actual characters, but she said it’s just too much trouble to constantly have to take the extra step of choosing the right character out of the popup menu . . . .

    I wonder if the proliferation of pinyin and other romanized Chinese data entry schemes on smartphones will eventually break the millenia-long tradition of logographic Chinese writing.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I doubt it because the computers keep getting better at guessing which character you mean from the context, whether it is typed in pinyin or spoken, so eventually the pop up menus won't be needed. Chinese characters are deeply ingrained into the culture and won't go away that easily. At first, Chinese homophones seem daunting (something like "ma" can mean dozens of things) but in conversation humans have no problem figuring out from the context whether you are talking about a horse or your mother and someday computers will be able to figure this out too.
  167. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Imagine how much they could have accomplished if they weren’t neighbouring Russia and could have just been independent this past century.
     
    Probably not much.

    Finland managed to avoid going Red and hasn't generated many Great People, either due to personality reasons or a lower intelligence S.D. I suspect the same applies to their close relatives the Eesti.

    When I think famous Estonians the first four who come to mind are Mikhail Tal (chess), Sergey Dovlatov (excellent writer, but who's connection with Estonia was fleeting), and Jaan Tallinn (Skype inventor). So only 1/3 of them are Estonians.

    I recall that the richest Estonian is an ethnic Russian.

    And the richest Russian, Umarov, is an Uzbek, despite Uzbekistan’s IQ being in the low 80′s.
    What’s your point?

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  168. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    And Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of Israel's population. More than half of Israel's population is made up of Israeli Arabs, Mizrahi Jews (emigrated to Israel from Middle Eastern countries), and Ethiopian Jews. I am skeptical that the Arabs, Mizrahim and Ethiopian Jews score well on PISA.

    The Ashkenazis in Israel probably score below whites.
    If you look at the raw data from the PISA website, there seems to be no bimodality in the distribution of the scores, and even if you rightfully assume Ashkenazis score significantly more than Mizrahis, they still come out very unimpressive.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Do you mean White Americans? The Jewish Israeli estimated PISA science score of 486 (see comment 103 to this post) is between the scores of students in Luxembourg and Russian. And that score includes the Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews and whatever small number of haredi/hasidic Ashkenazi Jews took the test in addition to secular Ashkenazi Jews. You don't consider the inhabitants of Luxembourg and Russia to be White?
    , @5371
    Your words are going to hurt the "muh IQ" Jewish supremacists very deeply.
    , @twwu
    How come Ashkenazi Jews outperform WASPs by like 10 to 1 despite them having roughly similar IQ scores according to audicious epigone?
  169. Babylonians discovered Pythagorean theorem in 2000 bc, and some dude named maruska invented blue LEDs in 1972, and would have developed bright leds in the 70s if rca had not gone belly up. The way american companies operate hobbles them since profits go into dividends and share buybacks rather than r and d.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Maruska's blue LED was not bright enough to be useful. However, another (Greek) American, Moustakas, invented a bright blue LED and should have received credit. He did however recently win a patent lawsuit which is maybe better than credit.
  170. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    The Ashkenazis in Israel probably score below whites.
    If you look at the raw data from the PISA website, there seems to be no bimodality in the distribution of the scores, and even if you rightfully assume Ashkenazis score significantly more than Mizrahis, they still come out very unimpressive.

    Do you mean White Americans? The Jewish Israeli estimated PISA science score of 486 (see comment 103 to this post) is between the scores of students in Luxembourg and Russian. And that score includes the Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews and whatever small number of haredi/hasidic Ashkenazi Jews took the test in addition to secular Ashkenazi Jews. You don’t consider the inhabitants of Luxembourg and Russia to be White?

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  171. @The Last Real Calvinist
    BTW, thanks for the link to that paper -- very interesting.

    Daughter Calvinist and her friends text each other using a form of romanized Chinese they've essentially invented themselves, mixed up with loads of English loan words. They're therefore writing in Chinese, but using only English characters. I've asked her why they don't use actual Chinese characters, since they certainly could use a pinyin entry system if they don't want to draw out the actual characters, but she said it's just too much trouble to constantly have to take the extra step of choosing the right character out of the popup menu . . . .

    I wonder if the proliferation of pinyin and other romanized Chinese data entry schemes on smartphones will eventually break the millenia-long tradition of logographic Chinese writing.

    I doubt it because the computers keep getting better at guessing which character you mean from the context, whether it is typed in pinyin or spoken, so eventually the pop up menus won’t be needed. Chinese characters are deeply ingrained into the culture and won’t go away that easily. At first, Chinese homophones seem daunting (something like “ma” can mean dozens of things) but in conversation humans have no problem figuring out from the context whether you are talking about a horse or your mother and someday computers will be able to figure this out too.

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  172. @bbs
    Babylonians discovered Pythagorean theorem in 2000 bc, and some dude named maruska invented blue LEDs in 1972, and would have developed bright leds in the 70s if rca had not gone belly up. The way american companies operate hobbles them since profits go into dividends and share buybacks rather than r and d.

    Maruska’s blue LED was not bright enough to be useful. However, another (Greek) American, Moustakas, invented a bright blue LED and should have received credit. He did however recently win a patent lawsuit which is maybe better than credit.

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  173. @Autochthon
    Conceding data about patents are poor proxies for data about innovation while suggesting they are nevertheless the best we can do is risible. All recorded history and our lying eyes provide a surfeit of better data regarding the veritable deluge of invention and creativiry by Europeans and our diaspora versus the dearth of it by Asians and theirs. Cf. gunpowder and paper versus essentially every other significant technological advancement. (Nevermind the arts and humanities.) I'd start an illustraive list but I don't have that kind of time, and there is no honour in carrying on ungraciously after victory: just look to the example of how gracious Douglas MacArthur was to the vanquished after the flight of the Enola Gay (speaking of Occidental innovations over Oriental roboticism...). That example implicates the Japanese, and you imply allegiance to the Chinese, but then, even the Japanese have achieved far greater innovation and success than your ilk.

    A dictum: military technology is often a good reflection of a people's comparative innovation, because it is for obvious reasons not so readily shared, and more closely guarded from theft (and the Chinese steal intellectual property like nobody's business!). Yet the Chinese cannot so much as field an aircraft carrier worthy to be considered one by modern standards.

    Panda, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I don't mind saying so; my distaste stems in large part from my suspicion you are a parastic immivader, gleefully deriding the U.S.A. to praise China, despite having fled the latter to dwell in the former. Revealed preferences, hypocrisy, actions inconsistent with words...Hell's bells, a whole host of contemptible implications follow if my suspicion is correct.

    Accusations of “intellectual property theft”, “copying” and “cheating” are always the resort of those who have no other argument. Winners don’t waste their time whining like that.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I make no accusations; I state facts. Chinese disregard for rights in intellectual property is ubiquitous and well documented. I myself write from years of personal experience and my own expertise with intellectual property, including experience on the receiving end of dawn raids in which representatives of the Chinese government cavalierly and without due process seize computers from American and other foreign companies foolish enough to have set up laboratories in China (the Chinese routinely require foreign firms to establish laboratories in China in exchange for permission to sell widgets and otherwise conduct business there, and the foreign executives in their shortsighted greed comply). Of course, it's all a scam: as soon as the Chinese steal enough intellectual property from such operations to ramp up their knock-offs, the government finds some bogus reason or another—antitrust pretexts are one of the most common, and goofy, since the whole point of a patent is effectively a legal monopoly encouraged and permitted so as to stimulate innovation—to shut down the foreign operation to the benefit of the thieving Chinese, whose governmentally owned corporations then take the accused foreigners' market-share using the stolen technology. Imagine if, say, Intel or Microsoft were owned and operated by the American government, and that the federal courts, the International Trade Commission, the Department of Justice, et al. were constantly, conveniently, prosecuting foreign competitors and finding against them, and you will begin to understand the Chinese racket.

    I nevertheless make my arguments not from authority, but empiricism. Here is a primer on the topic for you with much greater detail:

    http://www.ipcommission.org/report/ip_commission_report_052213.pdf

    I note your and the Panda character's dismissal of my points with smug, silly remarks in the vein of "neener neener" even as you accuse me of resorting to impliedly unsubstantiated accusations. I welcome actual refutations of the widely documented theft of intellectual property by Chinese (and, indeed, their own corrupt government's contempt for enforcing laws regarding intellectual property even as duly litigated matters before legitimate tribunals everywhere else in the world consistently find egregious violations by the Chinese).

    Now, if you are making some kind of inarticulate argument that intellectual property itself is a concept that should not be respected as the basis for your idea that the theft of it is a whiner's last resort, that's another matter, and one requiring much more fundamental aspects of jurisprudence to be explained. Law school is expensive, though, so you'd best get cracking stealing other people's inventions and hoarding the ill gotten gains if you want to finance such an education.
  174. @Anonymous
    The Ashkenazis in Israel probably score below whites.
    If you look at the raw data from the PISA website, there seems to be no bimodality in the distribution of the scores, and even if you rightfully assume Ashkenazis score significantly more than Mizrahis, they still come out very unimpressive.

    Your words are going to hurt the “muh IQ” Jewish supremacists very deeply.

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  175. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Hiiumaa looks like it’s rural, which is a switch for high scoring areas. Usually the high scorers are urban, or a rural area in which a university has been plopped down.

    Hiiumaa is not rural in the traditional sense, it is more like a resort island (along with Saaremaa, right next to it). They don’t do typical agro industries there but mostly services (tourism) – and there is not much there except for beaches, vacation homes, little ports, lighthouses, breweries and craft businesses. It is a very SWPL place that people from all over the Baltic region visit for vacations or where they buy vacation properties (to go boating and hiking). In fact, the difference between Hiiumaa and Tallinn, where people might have more money for their children’s extra curricular activities, may not be that big.

    Estonia has made it a point to mitigate the impact of social differences on the quality of education. They use something called the social index – they subtract this social index from the results in, say, Tallinn, and as a result it turns out that the level of education is just as good in rural areas as in the capital. The results are due to the innovative education system.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Correct, the difference between Estonians in Tallinn and Tartu and Hiiumaa when it comes to math results is negligible. Narva Estonians do worse than the rural average and way worse than the average in other towns, but Narva is not a majority or plurality Estonian town.
  176. @Buzz Mohawk
    Buzz strongly suspects that you are an apologist for a feudal society that has been backwards for millenia and has grown into the world's largest cheap labor pool thanks to the influence of deeply-rooted greed in the traditional/modern Western/English caste system.

    I guess history isn’t your strong suit. Your people were once cheap labor too.

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    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    My people have set the pace for humanity for the past 500 years. I think we can take some credit for recency -- as in relevant to modern times, which by the way are the product of...wait for it...my people.
  177. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Steve Sailer
    You could make up a measure of "bookishness" by country. Northern Europeans, such as Icelanders, tend to be pretty bookish, I would guess. Latin Americans tend not to be. High IQ northeastern Asians are perhaps less bookish than northwestern Europeans. This may have something to do with the effort required to read in different languages.

    What else is there to do on a 18hr long cold, dark evening?

    Actually there is playing soccer in a nice brightly-lit, warm, indoor space. And get in practice, lots and lots of practice. And thus beating the over-paid ponces of England.

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  178. @Anonymous
    The Ashkenazis in Israel probably score below whites.
    If you look at the raw data from the PISA website, there seems to be no bimodality in the distribution of the scores, and even if you rightfully assume Ashkenazis score significantly more than Mizrahis, they still come out very unimpressive.

    How come Ashkenazi Jews outperform WASPs by like 10 to 1 despite them having roughly similar IQ scores according to audicious epigone?

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    • Replies: @AER
    Outperform 10 to 1? Source pls. We don't quibble on the fact that they are outperforming. I'm asking you to substantiate the specific 10-1 ratio. Unless, of course, you're just BSing. Also, they don't have similar IQs. Epigone's theory is a one-off deviation from established observation running in many decades.

    Finally, keep in mind that Israel has a 75% Jewish population. Of that 75%, half is Arabic. It's 75% if you include mixed Arab/Ashkenazi. So, one quarter of 75% is pure Ashkenazi. On top of that, you have a significant Askhenazi Haredi population.

    So the secular pure Ashkenazi is sub-15% of the total school population.That is still a very high percentage of high-IQ kids.

    , @anon

    How come Ashkenazi Jews outperform WASPs by like 10 to 1 despite them having roughly similar IQ scores according to audicious epigone?
     
    Lots of ethnic nepotism in certain areas: e.g. finance, media etc however I think there's something else which effects all the longer-civilized populations.

    Leaving aside arguments about overall average IQ if you selected a group of WASPs and a similar size group from any of the longer civilized populations with the same IQ then i think the WASPs will have more ADD so they get out-competed on [swottiness / conscientousness].

    When it was just WASPs it didn't matter as the lazy and bright ones out-competed the lazy and dumb ones and so they still became the doctors/scientists etc but with immigration of bright people from longer civilized populations they are increasingly squeezed out.

    If correct and if the ADD is a factor in innovation then this process will have (or already has had) a significant effect on total innovation.
  179. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @DukeofQin
    I am going to assume that you are, in addition to being grossly dishonest, also blatantly stupid. 21st century it may be but the social mores of the Gulf Arabs are not quite akin to that of Canadians. They actively can and do suppress immigrant fertility and are not quite so reckless as to allow their imported helot labour to potentially outbreed them.

    Your lie that Indian labor can actually settle down and have children and family in the Gulf is repudiated by a simple review of the demographic profile of the Gulf States.

    For example, the UAE has a gender ratio for 0-14 years of age of 635k males to 606k females. A natural ratio. However for the ages between 15-24, the upper bounds of which begin to include younger migrant labour, the ratio is now 477k to 325k men to women. For ages 25-54, the prime adult working age population the ratio 2.768 million to 864k. There are more than three times as many adult men in the UAE than there are adult women. Factor in that the plurality if not majority of adult women in Dubai are Arab muslims, this means that the immigrant labor pool is probably 5:1 male to female. Furthermore, the majority of the immigrant women are domestic servants from places like the Philippines and Indonesia who work and live at the homes of elites they are essentially socially segregated from the majority of male labourers that come from India, Bangladesh, Nepal, and Pakistan.

    I would suggest you to read “Qatar School Rankings” in previous edition of PISA. 10/30 top schools were Indian that only hire Indian kids (out of 150 schools in Qatar).

    If Indians in UAE and Qatar are not breeding (which keeps up the PISA score, indeed your stupidity is amazing), then why you have 10 schools out of top 30 schools that are only reserved for Indians ?

    And even those schools hire 3x more students than rest of the schools in Qatar.
    So, at school kid level, Indians are equally represented as per their population size.

    Forget about Qatar and UAE.
    Let me take you to Singapore.

    https://themigrationist.net/2014/01/08/riot-in-singapores-little-india/

    “Of these, 760,000 are ‘low-skilled’ male migrant workers on work permit.”

    “It has been estimated that South Asian men number around 300,000, they fall under the ‘low-skilled’ category and are hired largely in the construction industry.”

    http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-singapores-immigrant-population-brings-policy-challenges

    “Due to policies instituted in the 1990s to recruit the highly skilled in nontraditional source countries, however, the majority of skilled workers (apart from Malaysians) are now from China and India”.

    http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/news/population-in-brief-2014.pdf

    Page 8: “Foreign employment growth was mainly driven by the construction sector.”

    These are from Singapore government websites.

    It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.
    And Indian fertility rate in Singapore is much higher at 2.3 kid/women.

    If you happen to read about Singapore’s PISA, bottom 5% has score of 430. Suppose all these are Indians (worst case scenario, even though Indians score better than Malays), that would still mean that kids of Indian construction workers have indeed scored 420+.

    Let me take you to UK:-

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.
    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.

    Let me take you to South Africa:-

    It is undisputed that Indians came as slaves in British Empire. They measure 3 points higher than colored, and 0.5 standard deviation below whites as per IQ tests.

    So, again you have non-elites scoring at 92-94 after Flynn is done on them.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    If you want to see the scores of Indian elites, I would suggest you to google India's GMAT, GRE and SAT scores which are still depressed by english handicap.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    "As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain. As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them."

    I don't think Indians who come to the UK have average IQs of 83. Pakistanis, maybe.

    India is so caste-stratified that we really need figures on IQ by caste. I'm not sure how many (if any) exist, but there's a good set of comments here.

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/

    "Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs."
     
    More interesting stuff on the Indian diaspora here.

    http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/worlds-successful-diasporas/article/648273
    , @AER
    That sounds reasonably fair. Wouldn't Sri Lanka also be a somewhat decent proxy for the average Indian, at least down south? Even in Sri lanka there has been signficant malnutrition and less school infrastructure, so even then the IQ is almost certainly higher.
    , @PandaAtWar

    These are from Singapore government websites. It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.
     

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.


     


    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.
     
    The exact source links please? not some forms of subjective "deduction".
  180. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anon
    I would suggest you to read "Qatar School Rankings" in previous edition of PISA. 10/30 top schools were Indian that only hire Indian kids (out of 150 schools in Qatar).

    If Indians in UAE and Qatar are not breeding (which keeps up the PISA score, indeed your stupidity is amazing), then why you have 10 schools out of top 30 schools that are only reserved for Indians ?

    And even those schools hire 3x more students than rest of the schools in Qatar.
    So, at school kid level, Indians are equally represented as per their population size.

    Forget about Qatar and UAE.
    Let me take you to Singapore.

    https://themigrationist.net/2014/01/08/riot-in-singapores-little-india/
    "Of these, 760,000 are ‘low-skilled’ male migrant workers on work permit."

    "It has been estimated that South Asian men number around 300,000, they fall under the ‘low-skilled’ category and are hired largely in the construction industry."

    http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-singapores-immigrant-population-brings-policy-challenges
    "Due to policies instituted in the 1990s to recruit the highly skilled in nontraditional source countries, however, the majority of skilled workers (apart from Malaysians) are now from China and India".

    http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/news/population-in-brief-2014.pdf
    Page 8: "Foreign employment growth was mainly driven by the construction sector."

    These are from Singapore government websites.

    It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.
    And Indian fertility rate in Singapore is much higher at 2.3 kid/women.

    If you happen to read about Singapore's PISA, bottom 5% has score of 430. Suppose all these are Indians (worst case scenario, even though Indians score better than Malays), that would still mean that kids of Indian construction workers have indeed scored 420+.

    Let me take you to UK:-

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.
    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.

    Let me take you to South Africa:-

    It is undisputed that Indians came as slaves in British Empire. They measure 3 points higher than colored, and 0.5 standard deviation below whites as per IQ tests.

    So, again you have non-elites scoring at 92-94 after Flynn is done on them.

    If you want to see the scores of Indian elites, I would suggest you to google India’s GMAT, GRE and SAT scores which are still depressed by english handicap.

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  181. @Daniel H
    A quick back of the envelope calculation of the weighted averages of the Jewish and Arab populations indicates that Jews scored approximately 486 in the science PISA.

    How?
    Jordan's score (proxy for Palestinians) 409
    Israel's score (includes 25% Palestinian population) 467

    Calculate: .25 * 409 + .75 * (X, Jewish Score) = 467

    X = (467-.25*409)/.75= 486

    Not a surprising result, considering that more than half of Israel's population derive from Arab, middle eastern lands, where they had resided for eons, with no European admixture.

    You are right, the numbers for Jews are 488 for science (30th place), 507 for reading (12th place) and 495 for math (20th place). Arabs are less then 400.

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  182. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous

    Hiiumaa looks like it’s rural, which is a switch for high scoring areas. Usually the high scorers are urban, or a rural area in which a university has been plopped down.
     
    Hiiumaa is not rural in the traditional sense, it is more like a resort island (along with Saaremaa, right next to it). They don't do typical agro industries there but mostly services (tourism) - and there is not much there except for beaches, vacation homes, little ports, lighthouses, breweries and craft businesses. It is a very SWPL place that people from all over the Baltic region visit for vacations or where they buy vacation properties (to go boating and hiking). In fact, the difference between Hiiumaa and Tallinn, where people might have more money for their children's extra curricular activities, may not be that big.

    Estonia has made it a point to mitigate the impact of social differences on the quality of education. They use something called the social index - they subtract this social index from the results in, say, Tallinn, and as a result it turns out that the level of education is just as good in rural areas as in the capital. The results are due to the innovative education system.

    Correct, the difference between Estonians in Tallinn and Tartu and Hiiumaa when it comes to math results is negligible. Narva Estonians do worse than the rural average and way worse than the average in other towns, but Narva is not a majority or plurality Estonian town.

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  183. @Autochthon
    Conceding data about patents are poor proxies for data about innovation while suggesting they are nevertheless the best we can do is risible. All recorded history and our lying eyes provide a surfeit of better data regarding the veritable deluge of invention and creativiry by Europeans and our diaspora versus the dearth of it by Asians and theirs. Cf. gunpowder and paper versus essentially every other significant technological advancement. (Nevermind the arts and humanities.) I'd start an illustraive list but I don't have that kind of time, and there is no honour in carrying on ungraciously after victory: just look to the example of how gracious Douglas MacArthur was to the vanquished after the flight of the Enola Gay (speaking of Occidental innovations over Oriental roboticism...). That example implicates the Japanese, and you imply allegiance to the Chinese, but then, even the Japanese have achieved far greater innovation and success than your ilk.

    A dictum: military technology is often a good reflection of a people's comparative innovation, because it is for obvious reasons not so readily shared, and more closely guarded from theft (and the Chinese steal intellectual property like nobody's business!). Yet the Chinese cannot so much as field an aircraft carrier worthy to be considered one by modern standards.

    Panda, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I don't mind saying so; my distaste stems in large part from my suspicion you are a parastic immivader, gleefully deriding the U.S.A. to praise China, despite having fled the latter to dwell in the former. Revealed preferences, hypocrisy, actions inconsistent with words...Hell's bells, a whole host of contemptible implications follow if my suspicion is correct.

    hmmmmm, that typical Stormfronter way of bifurcation of yours, Panda hates to say, is too robotic, persistent as always nonetheless, and without a trace of innovation…

    Shall Panda interpret your full-on personal attack is your particularly subtle way of throwing in the towel? Thank you and pls go on. LoL

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  184. @Jack D
    Argentinians like to imagine themselves to be 100% European but outside of Buenos Aires with its large immigrant population (that arrived at the same time as the Ellis Island era in the US) it's not really true.

    In the end, you can predict PISA scores pretty well if you know the (true) population genetics of a country.

    Argentinians like to imagine themselves to be 100% European but outside of Buenos Aires with its large immigrant population (that arrived at the same time as the Ellis Island era in the US) it’s not really true.

    Argentinians who are of European stock like to say (not to imagine) that they are of European stock. Nothing wrong with that.
    Argentines whites are not as politically correct as US and European whites. Nothing wrong with that either.
    I have travelled the country extensively. Whites are there spread in the entire pampas region (not just Buenos Aires Province but also Santa Fe, La Pampa, San Luis), the central sierras of Cordoba, the wine region in the west (Mendoza, San Juan), the southern Patagonia provinces and also in large pockets in the Mesopotamian NE (Misiones, Corrientes, Entre Rios). In the NW provinces there are the old traditional white ruling classes, probably the most self-aware whites of the country due to the large % of amerindians from Bolivia and Peru, who have migrated there in the last decades. In some of Bs As City neighborhoods there is now also a large fraction of Bolivians, Paraguayans and Peruvians recently arrived.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I was not referring to the Argentine ruling classes who have every right to say that they are European because they really are. What I was talking about (and this is true all over Latin America) that in Argentina if you are mixed race (partly indigenous) but connected to (even on the poor end of) Spanish culture rather than an Indian tribe, you still think of yourself as "white". Rather than the "flight from white" that we have in America, they are still at the stage where people with more or less plausibly European features "pass" or consider themselve white, whereas in fact maybe 1/2 the population has at least some Indian admixture.
  185. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Foreign Expert
    I'm surprised that japan is still doing so well, assuming they are not gaming the system, which is a pretty good assumption (Japan does a good job of administering tests). Due to demographics, the number of 17 year olds is going down, meaning the competition to get into university, even A-/B+ universities, is highly reduced, and the kids know it.

    And you seriously think they don’t adjust placements after demography?

    P.S. Japan has also seen a significant increase in foreign students over the past 10-15 years.

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  186. @Lagertha
    Not to toot my Finnish horn too loud, but, considering that today is the 99th Independence Day of Suomi, there is this to offer up: After WW2 (Finland had the Soviet "Marshall Plan") Finland decided to invest heavily in education. Children were considered a national resource, and the entire country decided that technology was the way to go. A staggering 60% of the population left the countryside and moved to the major cities (if you could say that then), Helsinki, Tampere and Pori. Children's education was an obsessive focus. Children's needs are met with a kind of concern that does not exist in other countries. I would say they have better services than Sweden now; the new Somalia. Voila', many years later, Finns still outscore all Western countries....along with their cousins, the Estonians.

    What’s the immigration situation like in Finland?

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Not good. Some 32,000 came in...supposedly 19,000 don't qualify. Some 3-4 thousand have been put on jets back to whatever country they came from. 2-3000 have disappeared (withdrawn their asylum papers: Finland too cold; food bland; refugees complained that they are housed way outside of the capital city! snicker...) They are now "rounding them up" but it is a slow process (police don't have guns) to get rid of the 10,ooo or so who don't qualify - all able-bodied men. The families seem to be ok.

    There has been about 1050 rapes since last year - also women murdered. The white supremacists are very active....and, there are no laws to prevent them from marching and protesting - the refugees are definitely irked by the intense "Sons of Odin" and other groups. Finnish men are tall and fearless...and volatile.

    People, generally, have "caught on" to the social welfare costs, as the "healthy male refugees," are expensive. There is much grumbling about the severe cuts in care for : disabled, elderly, children, education, in order to pay for the refugees. They will not get the money they were expecting, so many have gone to Sweden & Germany/Holland. In the end, Finland is too cold/remote for anyone but families to want to stay there. And, because of the weather, it is very hard to find women in the towns & cities 9 months of the year.

    The Migrant situation is not as hard as it is in the other European countries - but they have brought crime (muggings/rapes/theft). At least Putin, with Trump as president, has stopped human traffickers now, who trucked refugee men to the Eastern and Lappish borders - this was a BIG problem.

    Finns don't like strangers, so it is a lonely place to get marooned in. And, there are Kurds there (after the Kuwait/Iraq war), "great refugees" from the early 90's, and, the Kurds hate the Sunni Muslims, as you know. The Kurds have done well in Finland, and they are integrated, their women don't wear headscarves, etc, and they have become university educated.Nobody likes the unintegrated Somalis...which there is something like 10,000 - not sure of the exact number since I live in the states. At least, Finnish media doesn't play the PC game as much, since the society is mostly, ethnic Finns. But, like I said, the actual, true families seem to be ok; have been accepted.

  187. @twwu
    How come Ashkenazi Jews outperform WASPs by like 10 to 1 despite them having roughly similar IQ scores according to audicious epigone?

    Outperform 10 to 1? Source pls. We don’t quibble on the fact that they are outperforming. I’m asking you to substantiate the specific 10-1 ratio. Unless, of course, you’re just BSing. Also, they don’t have similar IQs. Epigone’s theory is a one-off deviation from established observation running in many decades.

    Finally, keep in mind that Israel has a 75% Jewish population. Of that 75%, half is Arabic. It’s 75% if you include mixed Arab/Ashkenazi. So, one quarter of 75% is pure Ashkenazi. On top of that, you have a significant Askhenazi Haredi population.

    So the secular pure Ashkenazi is sub-15% of the total school population.That is still a very high percentage of high-IQ kids.

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  188. @Anon
    I would suggest you to read "Qatar School Rankings" in previous edition of PISA. 10/30 top schools were Indian that only hire Indian kids (out of 150 schools in Qatar).

    If Indians in UAE and Qatar are not breeding (which keeps up the PISA score, indeed your stupidity is amazing), then why you have 10 schools out of top 30 schools that are only reserved for Indians ?

    And even those schools hire 3x more students than rest of the schools in Qatar.
    So, at school kid level, Indians are equally represented as per their population size.

    Forget about Qatar and UAE.
    Let me take you to Singapore.

    https://themigrationist.net/2014/01/08/riot-in-singapores-little-india/
    "Of these, 760,000 are ‘low-skilled’ male migrant workers on work permit."

    "It has been estimated that South Asian men number around 300,000, they fall under the ‘low-skilled’ category and are hired largely in the construction industry."

    http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-singapores-immigrant-population-brings-policy-challenges
    "Due to policies instituted in the 1990s to recruit the highly skilled in nontraditional source countries, however, the majority of skilled workers (apart from Malaysians) are now from China and India".

    http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/news/population-in-brief-2014.pdf
    Page 8: "Foreign employment growth was mainly driven by the construction sector."

    These are from Singapore government websites.

    It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.
    And Indian fertility rate in Singapore is much higher at 2.3 kid/women.

    If you happen to read about Singapore's PISA, bottom 5% has score of 430. Suppose all these are Indians (worst case scenario, even though Indians score better than Malays), that would still mean that kids of Indian construction workers have indeed scored 420+.

    Let me take you to UK:-

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.
    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.

    Let me take you to South Africa:-

    It is undisputed that Indians came as slaves in British Empire. They measure 3 points higher than colored, and 0.5 standard deviation below whites as per IQ tests.

    So, again you have non-elites scoring at 92-94 after Flynn is done on them.

    “As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain. As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.”

    I don’t think Indians who come to the UK have average IQs of 83. Pakistanis, maybe.

    India is so caste-stratified that we really need figures on IQ by caste. I’m not sure how many (if any) exist, but there’s a good set of comments here.

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/

    “Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs.”

    More interesting stuff on the Indian diaspora here.

    http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/worlds-successful-diasporas/article/648273

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    No. Indians in UK score 83 on IQ.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b132/1ab30f8e414e7e0b353979ddbab0e15bf523.pdf

    Page 56:-

    "First, rows 6 and 7 give non-verbal reasoning IQs of 83 for Indian children resident for fewer than four years in Britain and 97 for those resident in Britain for four or more years, indicating a gain of 14 IQ points arising from residence."

    Secondly, I am not into believing that Indian castes differ on IQ unless there is a scientific data-set attached with the article or blog.

    However, there is IQ data-set on Indian castes vs IQ. Well here you go:-

    https://books.google.co.in/books?id=9tZ4AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=chopra+iq+difference+between+castes&source=bl&ots=mUJt4iGaiY&sig=K5__8u3gFJA4AG6yXxjnwnzm4Xk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUm83W_MbQAhUEQI8KHW--DpEQ6AEIOjAC#v=onepage&q=chopra%20iq%20difference%20between%20castes&f=false

    Page 16:-

    "Looking at the overall results of IQ testing in India we conclude that significant differences in cognitive test scores by caste status do not seem to exist."

    There is no major differences between Indian castes. As per IQ tests done vs castes and not someone's blog. Book is above with many research papers.

    On non-verbal IQ tests (Raven’s Progressive Matrices), there are no significant differences among Indian castes.

    As it is observed via IQ testing (not someone’s blogs) that Vaishyas have higher non-verbal IQ than Kshatriya who have higher non-verbal IQ than Brahmins followed by SCs.

    Rather the difference between Vaishyas and Brahmins on non-verbal IQ tests (as per IQ research) is same as the difference between Brahmins and Scheduled Castes.

    Secondly, the differences among Indian castes is estimated to be less than 3 IQ points on non-verbal IQ tests.

    However on verbal IQ tests, the difference is 11 IQ points.

    And is more correlated to socio-economic status.

    However, Muslims score 5-6 points below on genes as they are incest and practice inbreeding.

    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/brahmins-one-of-the-poorest-and-maligned-castes-in-india/

    "Brahmins : One of the poorest and maligned ‘Castes’ in India".

    Brhamins, the so called most superior Indian group as per these blogs. Is also the poorest and hopeless ethnic group in India. With test scores at par with Scheduled Castes (as shown above).

    However, they are the most racist, supremacist and manipulative thugs who will troll on internet about their supremacy like Rec1man out of which these blogs are written. And should be just ignored.

    As Indians in UK score 97 after 4 years of residency after coming from 83 IQ. Entire India will have similar 14 points jump from 83 to 97 after Flynn is done and will be 83 IQ before Flynn effect.

    , @anon
    To see Flynn effect on India and if it is real or not, I attach the following articles:-

    1. IQ of Aligarh, Uttar Pradesh (Average IQ of 109.5 for outbred and 98 for inbred):-

    Source: “Badaruddoza. Inbreeding effects on metrical phenotypes among North Indian Children. Collegicum Antropologicum 28(Suppl. 2): 311-318. (ISSN No. 0350-6134.”

    Link: http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/44025

    2. IQ of Ahmedabad (Average IQ of 104, 97 in 2 districts):-

    Source: http://www.fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/trivedi-2007.pdf

    3. Average IQ of school kids in Lucknow in non-dental fluorosis regions was 110 and 100 overall (normal fluoride region and severe fluoride regions combined).

    Source: http://www.jcdr.net/article_fulltext.asp?issn=0973-709x&year=2015&month=November&volume=9&issue=11&page=ZC10&id=6726

    4. IQ of Pune (Average IQ of 97.2):-

    Source: http://www.indianpediatrics.net/feb2004/feb-121-128.htm

    5. IQ in villages in Mundra, Gujarat (Average IQ of 97.7)

    Source: http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/trivedi-20124.pdf

    6. IQ in Uttar Pradesh (Average IQ of 99.6 out-bred):-

    Source: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01067435

    Similarly, entire State of Haryana in North India (which is India's highest GDP per capita state) is performing one standard deviation above average Indian.

    http://img.asercentre.org/docs/Publications/ASER%20Reports/ASER%202014/ASER%20state%20pages%20Eng/haryana.pdf

    Compare this reading and maths score to other Indian states where scores are below average like Tamil Nadu or Madhya Pradesh.

    Lastly, Flynn effect on IQ of Indians in Britain is incomplete. To see real Flynn effect, IQ of second generation is to be tested.
    If Indian immigrants to UK score 83 as they come from malnourished or poor living conditions and score 97 in just 4 years of residency in UK. The scores can be even higher had those been born in UK.
    , @PandaAtWar

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/
    “Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc
    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.
    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs.”
     
    Please don't quote this highly subjective what-ifs and if-thens rubbish as a form of proof, because with likewise numerous groundless assumptions, Panda can very reasonablely deduct as well that the Earth is the center of the universe. ROFL
  189. @Anon
    I would suggest you to read "Qatar School Rankings" in previous edition of PISA. 10/30 top schools were Indian that only hire Indian kids (out of 150 schools in Qatar).

    If Indians in UAE and Qatar are not breeding (which keeps up the PISA score, indeed your stupidity is amazing), then why you have 10 schools out of top 30 schools that are only reserved for Indians ?

    And even those schools hire 3x more students than rest of the schools in Qatar.
    So, at school kid level, Indians are equally represented as per their population size.

    Forget about Qatar and UAE.
    Let me take you to Singapore.

    https://themigrationist.net/2014/01/08/riot-in-singapores-little-india/
    "Of these, 760,000 are ‘low-skilled’ male migrant workers on work permit."

    "It has been estimated that South Asian men number around 300,000, they fall under the ‘low-skilled’ category and are hired largely in the construction industry."

    http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-singapores-immigrant-population-brings-policy-challenges
    "Due to policies instituted in the 1990s to recruit the highly skilled in nontraditional source countries, however, the majority of skilled workers (apart from Malaysians) are now from China and India".

    http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/news/population-in-brief-2014.pdf
    Page 8: "Foreign employment growth was mainly driven by the construction sector."

    These are from Singapore government websites.

    It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.
    And Indian fertility rate in Singapore is much higher at 2.3 kid/women.

    If you happen to read about Singapore's PISA, bottom 5% has score of 430. Suppose all these are Indians (worst case scenario, even though Indians score better than Malays), that would still mean that kids of Indian construction workers have indeed scored 420+.

    Let me take you to UK:-

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.
    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.

    Let me take you to South Africa:-

    It is undisputed that Indians came as slaves in British Empire. They measure 3 points higher than colored, and 0.5 standard deviation below whites as per IQ tests.

    So, again you have non-elites scoring at 92-94 after Flynn is done on them.

    That sounds reasonably fair. Wouldn’t Sri Lanka also be a somewhat decent proxy for the average Indian, at least down south? Even in Sri lanka there has been signficant malnutrition and less school infrastructure, so even then the IQ is almost certainly higher.

    Read More
  190. @5371
    Accusations of "intellectual property theft", "copying" and "cheating" are always the resort of those who have no other argument. Winners don't waste their time whining like that.

    I make no accusations; I state facts. Chinese disregard for rights in intellectual property is ubiquitous and well documented. I myself write from years of personal experience and my own expertise with intellectual property, including experience on the receiving end of dawn raids in which representatives of the Chinese government cavalierly and without due process seize computers from American and other foreign companies foolish enough to have set up laboratories in China (the Chinese routinely require foreign firms to establish laboratories in China in exchange for permission to sell widgets and otherwise conduct business there, and the foreign executives in their shortsighted greed comply). Of course, it’s all a scam: as soon as the Chinese steal enough intellectual property from such operations to ramp up their knock-offs, the government finds some bogus reason or another—antitrust pretexts are one of the most common, and goofy, since the whole point of a patent is effectively a legal monopoly encouraged and permitted so as to stimulate innovation—to shut down the foreign operation to the benefit of the thieving Chinese, whose governmentally owned corporations then take the accused foreigners’ market-share using the stolen technology. Imagine if, say, Intel or Microsoft were owned and operated by the American government, and that the federal courts, the International Trade Commission, the Department of Justice, et al. were constantly, conveniently, prosecuting foreign competitors and finding against them, and you will begin to understand the Chinese racket.

    I nevertheless make my arguments not from authority, but empiricism. Here is a primer on the topic for you with much greater detail:

    http://www.ipcommission.org/report/ip_commission_report_052213.pdf

    I note your and the Panda character’s dismissal of my points with smug, silly remarks in the vein of “neener neener” even as you accuse me of resorting to impliedly unsubstantiated accusations. I welcome actual refutations of the widely documented theft of intellectual property by Chinese (and, indeed, their own corrupt government’s contempt for enforcing laws regarding intellectual property even as duly litigated matters before legitimate tribunals everywhere else in the world consistently find egregious violations by the Chinese).

    Now, if you are making some kind of inarticulate argument that intellectual property itself is a concept that should not be respected as the basis for your idea that the theft of it is a whiner’s last resort, that’s another matter, and one requiring much more fundamental aspects of jurisprudence to be explained. Law school is expensive, though, so you’d best get cracking stealing other people’s inventions and hoarding the ill gotten gains if you want to finance such an education.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    Since you seem to have plenty of free time, you might do some research into how well "intellectual property", especially when it belonged to foreigners, was respected in the 19th century US. After that I would recommend meditating on some passages from scripture. The one about motes and beams comes to mind.
    , @Against Eurocentric BS.
    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, an America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries' inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens' novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages). You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN'T CHINA----- IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. China is no exception to the rule. Also before the Industrial Revolution the backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization
    , @Against Eurocentric BS.
    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, an America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries' inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens' novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages). You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN'T CHINA----- IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. China is no exception to the rule. Also before the Industrial Revolution the backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization
  191. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous Nephew
    "As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain. As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them."

    I don't think Indians who come to the UK have average IQs of 83. Pakistanis, maybe.

    India is so caste-stratified that we really need figures on IQ by caste. I'm not sure how many (if any) exist, but there's a good set of comments here.

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/

    "Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs."
     
    More interesting stuff on the Indian diaspora here.

    http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/worlds-successful-diasporas/article/648273

    No. Indians in UK score 83 on IQ.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b132/1ab30f8e414e7e0b353979ddbab0e15bf523.pdf

    Page 56:-

    “First, rows 6 and 7 give non-verbal reasoning IQs of 83 for Indian children resident for fewer than four years in Britain and 97 for those resident in Britain for four or more years, indicating a gain of 14 IQ points arising from residence.”

    Secondly, I am not into believing that Indian castes differ on IQ unless there is a scientific data-set attached with the article or blog.

    However, there is IQ data-set on Indian castes vs IQ. Well here you go:-

    https://books.google.co.in/books?id=9tZ4AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=chopra+iq+difference+between+castes&source=bl&ots=mUJt4iGaiY&sig=K5__8u3gFJA4AG6yXxjnwnzm4Xk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUm83W_MbQAhUEQI8KHW–DpEQ6AEIOjAC#v=onepage&q=chopra%20iq%20difference%20between%20castes&f=false

    Page 16:-

    “Looking at the overall results of IQ testing in India we conclude that significant differences in cognitive test scores by caste status do not seem to exist.”

    There is no major differences between Indian castes. As per IQ tests done vs castes and not someone’s blog. Book is above with many research papers.

    On non-verbal IQ tests (Raven’s Progressive Matrices), there are no significant differences among Indian castes.

    As it is observed via IQ testing (not someone’s blogs) that Vaishyas have higher non-verbal IQ than Kshatriya who have higher non-verbal IQ than Brahmins followed by SCs.

    Rather the difference between Vaishyas and Brahmins on non-verbal IQ tests (as per IQ research) is same as the difference between Brahmins and Scheduled Castes.

    Secondly, the differences among Indian castes is estimated to be less than 3 IQ points on non-verbal IQ tests.

    However on verbal IQ tests, the difference is 11 IQ points.

    And is more correlated to socio-economic status.

    However, Muslims score 5-6 points below on genes as they are incest and practice inbreeding.

    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/brahmins-one-of-the-poorest-and-maligned-castes-in-india/

    “Brahmins : One of the poorest and maligned ‘Castes’ in India”.

    Brhamins, the so called most superior Indian group as per these blogs. Is also the poorest and hopeless ethnic group in India. With test scores at par with Scheduled Castes (as shown above).

    However, they are the most racist, supremacist and manipulative thugs who will troll on internet about their supremacy like Rec1man out of which these blogs are written. And should be just ignored.

    As Indians in UK score 97 after 4 years of residency after coming from 83 IQ. Entire India will have similar 14 points jump from 83 to 97 after Flynn is done and will be 83 IQ before Flynn effect.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Jumping up 14 points is not just Flynn. There are Indians coming to UK claiming to speak English and taking IQ tests in English but their British English is not as good as they think it is at first. After a few more years their English improves and they are better able to take an English IQ test. Most Indians speak English only as a 2nd language and the English that they speak is Indian English which at this point has diverged considerably from British English. Even an American might lose a few points on a British IQ test when they start asking about the boot and the bonnet and the lift, etc.
  192. @Anonymous
    No.

    Until quite recently Singapore had a low per capita GDP and was mostly working-class.

    Professional classe you want to say…

    What i said

    REASONABLE Monaco

    I don’t say

    = MONACO

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/singapore/gdp-per-capita

    Or you’re being sarcastic with me, anon.

    Read More
  193. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous Nephew
    "As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain. As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them."

    I don't think Indians who come to the UK have average IQs of 83. Pakistanis, maybe.

    India is so caste-stratified that we really need figures on IQ by caste. I'm not sure how many (if any) exist, but there's a good set of comments here.

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/

    "Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs."
     
    More interesting stuff on the Indian diaspora here.

    http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/worlds-successful-diasporas/article/648273

    To see Flynn effect on India and if it is real or not, I attach the following articles:-

    1. IQ of Aligarh, Uttar Pradesh (Average IQ of 109.5 for outbred and 98 for inbred):-

    Source: “Badaruddoza. Inbreeding effects on metrical phenotypes among North Indian Children. Collegicum Antropologicum 28(Suppl. 2): 311-318. (ISSN No. 0350-6134.”

    Link: http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/44025

    2. IQ of Ahmedabad (Average IQ of 104, 97 in 2 districts):-

    Source: http://www.fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/trivedi-2007.pdf

    3. Average IQ of school kids in Lucknow in non-dental fluorosis regions was 110 and 100 overall (normal fluoride region and severe fluoride regions combined).

    Source: http://www.jcdr.net/article_fulltext.asp?issn=0973-709x&year=2015&month=November&volume=9&issue=11&page=ZC10&id=6726

    4. IQ of Pune (Average IQ of 97.2):-

    Source: http://www.indianpediatrics.net/feb2004/feb-121-128.htm

    5. IQ in villages in Mundra, Gujarat (Average IQ of 97.7)

    Source: http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/trivedi-20124.pdf

    6. IQ in Uttar Pradesh (Average IQ of 99.6 out-bred):-

    Source: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01067435

    Similarly, entire State of Haryana in North India (which is India’s highest GDP per capita state) is performing one standard deviation above average Indian.

    http://img.asercentre.org/docs/Publications/ASER%20Reports/ASER%202014/ASER%20state%20pages%20Eng/haryana.pdf

    Compare this reading and maths score to other Indian states where scores are below average like Tamil Nadu or Madhya Pradesh.

    Lastly, Flynn effect on IQ of Indians in Britain is incomplete. To see real Flynn effect, IQ of second generation is to be tested.
    If Indian immigrants to UK score 83 as they come from malnourished or poor living conditions and score 97 in just 4 years of residency in UK. The scores can be even higher had those been born in UK.

    Read More
  194. @Lathdrinor
    I am sure their effort is commendable, but cultural bias is a problem of a different nature than the one I am talking about. The Chinese writing system, as one of the few completely logographic systems left in the world, has unique challenges absent in other systems. For an example, see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3549123. It is the only writing system in the world that demands the memorization of some 4,000 graphs before literacy can be achieved. For comparison, in Japanese that number is less than half, and in English, less than a hundredth.

    The effects of having to learn such a system cannot be easily determined from an education achievement test, which necessarily must test students in their native language, even if they attempt to avoid cultural bias in the questions. It would be satisfying to quantity this difference in terms of a negative score contribution, but I do not think the issue is that simple, because as the study above indicates, this difference can manifest in very strange ways - such as a significant negative correlation between reading scores and the use of one input method versus another during learning. Thus, there could be a significant generation difference in reading ability between Chinese children simply on the basis of adoption of electronic learning devices. Such differences say nothing about the children's IQ, but inevitably end up in standardized testing results that are then used as proxies for IQ, leading to general confusion about whether the average IQ is dropping.

    It is for this reason that I think PISA results should always be taken with a grain of salt. It might be the best measure that exists for comparing contemporary international populations, but that still doesn't make it an excellent measure. The fact that China and Taiwan reading scores are persistently depressed might indicate something about their verbal IQ, or it might indicate something about the writing system they use, or the way they learn that writing system. We cannot tell the difference from examining PISA scores alone, and theories built upon such scores may lead to the need for severe corrections later down the line.

    As a native Mandarin speaker, Panda disgrees with you on “problem from writing system”. e.g. Taiwan uses traditional form of Mandarin that takes even more energy out of brain than the mainland where a simplised form is used. So why TW is ahead of China in reading if Mandarin is the major problem? True that learning Madarin take an extra brain energy, yet it’s entirely different matter when you’re a native speaker. The low reading scores are due to mainly 2 areas according to todays’feedback from Taiwanese schools:

    http://udn.com/news/story/6886/2152853-%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98%E4%B8%80%E9%9B%A3%E9%8A%9C%E6%8E%A5-%E6%95%99%E5%B8%AB%E6%86%82%EF%BC%9A%E6%9C%83%E8%A6%BA%E5%9C%8B%E6%96%87%E5%83%8F%E6%95%B8%E5%AD%B8%E4%B8%80%E6%A8%A3%E9%9B%A3

    They are mainly 1) not used to reading long pieces of paper that covering wide arrange of topics. Exams in TW focus on much shorter content so pupils are used to reading and acting on shorter messages, particularly for the current smart-phone-generation. The youngsters are not even patient enough to read a long 3C product manual for instance; and 2) not used to computerised test format as all major local exams have been conducted using pens and paper withoutcomputers.

    Panda believes it’s the same for S-B-J-G(China) to a large extent. They, out of several others, seem to be a better explaination than Mandarin language.

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  195. @Anonymous Nephew
    "As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain. As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them."

    I don't think Indians who come to the UK have average IQs of 83. Pakistanis, maybe.

    India is so caste-stratified that we really need figures on IQ by caste. I'm not sure how many (if any) exist, but there's a good set of comments here.

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/

    "Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs."
     
    More interesting stuff on the Indian diaspora here.

    http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/worlds-successful-diasporas/article/648273

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/
    “Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc
    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.
    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs.”

    Please don’t quote this highly subjective what-ifs and if-thens rubbish as a form of proof, because with likewise numerous groundless assumptions, Panda can very reasonablely deduct as well that the Earth is the center of the universe. ROFL

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Panda can very reasonably deduct as well that the Middle Kingdom is the center of the universe.

    There I fixed it for you.
  196. @Anon
    I would suggest you to read "Qatar School Rankings" in previous edition of PISA. 10/30 top schools were Indian that only hire Indian kids (out of 150 schools in Qatar).

    If Indians in UAE and Qatar are not breeding (which keeps up the PISA score, indeed your stupidity is amazing), then why you have 10 schools out of top 30 schools that are only reserved for Indians ?

    And even those schools hire 3x more students than rest of the schools in Qatar.
    So, at school kid level, Indians are equally represented as per their population size.

    Forget about Qatar and UAE.
    Let me take you to Singapore.

    https://themigrationist.net/2014/01/08/riot-in-singapores-little-india/
    "Of these, 760,000 are ‘low-skilled’ male migrant workers on work permit."

    "It has been estimated that South Asian men number around 300,000, they fall under the ‘low-skilled’ category and are hired largely in the construction industry."

    http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-singapores-immigrant-population-brings-policy-challenges
    "Due to policies instituted in the 1990s to recruit the highly skilled in nontraditional source countries, however, the majority of skilled workers (apart from Malaysians) are now from China and India".

    http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/news/population-in-brief-2014.pdf
    Page 8: "Foreign employment growth was mainly driven by the construction sector."

    These are from Singapore government websites.

    It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.
    And Indian fertility rate in Singapore is much higher at 2.3 kid/women.

    If you happen to read about Singapore's PISA, bottom 5% has score of 430. Suppose all these are Indians (worst case scenario, even though Indians score better than Malays), that would still mean that kids of Indian construction workers have indeed scored 420+.

    Let me take you to UK:-

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.
    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.

    Let me take you to South Africa:-

    It is undisputed that Indians came as slaves in British Empire. They measure 3 points higher than colored, and 0.5 standard deviation below whites as per IQ tests.

    So, again you have non-elites scoring at 92-94 after Flynn is done on them.

    These are from Singapore government websites. It is undisputed that 5% of Singaporean population is Indian expats that are mainly employed in construction worker sector (referred to as elites of India by trolls like you as they do better than expected in second generation) and take up permanent resident-ship.

    As per Lynn, Indians in UK measure 83 IQ when they arrive and 97 after residing 4+ years in Britain.

    As they come from rural areas of Punjab and are mostly laborers (their score when they come to UK is undisputed at 83 slightly below average Indian), this is what Indian laborers will score after flynn effect is done on them.

    The exact source links please? not some forms of subjective “deduction”.

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  197. @Numinous
    I guess history isn't your strong suit. Your people were once cheap labor too.

    My people have set the pace for humanity for the past 500 years. I think we can take some credit for recency — as in relevant to modern times, which by the way are the product of…wait for it…my people.

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    • Replies: @Numinous
    My point was that everyone is cheap labor until they grow prosperous enough to be, well, expensive labor. Cheap labor is a legitimate tool an individual or group employs to increase its competitive advantage. I'm sure you'll call it a "race to the bottom", but the bottom here is really a springboard and not a sinkhole.

    And sure, you can be proud of what your people have achieved in the past few centuries, as long as you recognize that these trends are ephemeral when examined on a historical scale.
  198. @Anonymous
    I am surprised with the Welsh result.
    Traditionally, in Britain, the Welsh have had a reputation for quick wittedness and sharp practice, something like the Jews of Britain. Also traditionally, the Welsh had a reputation for a great aptitude and love for scholarship. Probably no other region of Britain has, over the centuries, contributed on a per capita basis more teachers and professors than the Welsh.

    Maybe that has resulted in a notable brain drain in favor of areas with more opportunities outside Wales. Cardiff does not strike me as a destination for ambitious Welshmen. Compounded over centuries, the effect would be rather visible.

    Cadfael, the murder solving friar in 12th century England, from a series of novels that have all been adapted for TV with Derek Jacobi in the main role, is a Welshman. He’s very smart, too.

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  199. @Buzz Mohawk
    My people have set the pace for humanity for the past 500 years. I think we can take some credit for recency -- as in relevant to modern times, which by the way are the product of...wait for it...my people.

    My point was that everyone is cheap labor until they grow prosperous enough to be, well, expensive labor. Cheap labor is a legitimate tool an individual or group employs to increase its competitive advantage. I’m sure you’ll call it a “race to the bottom”, but the bottom here is really a springboard and not a sinkhole.

    And sure, you can be proud of what your people have achieved in the past few centuries, as long as you recognize that these trends are ephemeral when examined on a historical scale.

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  200. @Autochthon
    I make no accusations; I state facts. Chinese disregard for rights in intellectual property is ubiquitous and well documented. I myself write from years of personal experience and my own expertise with intellectual property, including experience on the receiving end of dawn raids in which representatives of the Chinese government cavalierly and without due process seize computers from American and other foreign companies foolish enough to have set up laboratories in China (the Chinese routinely require foreign firms to establish laboratories in China in exchange for permission to sell widgets and otherwise conduct business there, and the foreign executives in their shortsighted greed comply). Of course, it's all a scam: as soon as the Chinese steal enough intellectual property from such operations to ramp up their knock-offs, the government finds some bogus reason or another—antitrust pretexts are one of the most common, and goofy, since the whole point of a patent is effectively a legal monopoly encouraged and permitted so as to stimulate innovation—to shut down the foreign operation to the benefit of the thieving Chinese, whose governmentally owned corporations then take the accused foreigners' market-share using the stolen technology. Imagine if, say, Intel or Microsoft were owned and operated by the American government, and that the federal courts, the International Trade Commission, the Department of Justice, et al. were constantly, conveniently, prosecuting foreign competitors and finding against them, and you will begin to understand the Chinese racket.

    I nevertheless make my arguments not from authority, but empiricism. Here is a primer on the topic for you with much greater detail:

    http://www.ipcommission.org/report/ip_commission_report_052213.pdf

    I note your and the Panda character's dismissal of my points with smug, silly remarks in the vein of "neener neener" even as you accuse me of resorting to impliedly unsubstantiated accusations. I welcome actual refutations of the widely documented theft of intellectual property by Chinese (and, indeed, their own corrupt government's contempt for enforcing laws regarding intellectual property even as duly litigated matters before legitimate tribunals everywhere else in the world consistently find egregious violations by the Chinese).

    Now, if you are making some kind of inarticulate argument that intellectual property itself is a concept that should not be respected as the basis for your idea that the theft of it is a whiner's last resort, that's another matter, and one requiring much more fundamental aspects of jurisprudence to be explained. Law school is expensive, though, so you'd best get cracking stealing other people's inventions and hoarding the ill gotten gains if you want to finance such an education.

    Since you seem to have plenty of free time, you might do some research into how well “intellectual property”, especially when it belonged to foreigners, was respected in the 19th century US. After that I would recommend meditating on some passages from scripture. The one about motes and beams comes to mind.

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  201. @Anon
    No. Indians in UK score 83 on IQ.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b132/1ab30f8e414e7e0b353979ddbab0e15bf523.pdf

    Page 56:-

    "First, rows 6 and 7 give non-verbal reasoning IQs of 83 for Indian children resident for fewer than four years in Britain and 97 for those resident in Britain for four or more years, indicating a gain of 14 IQ points arising from residence."

    Secondly, I am not into believing that Indian castes differ on IQ unless there is a scientific data-set attached with the article or blog.

    However, there is IQ data-set on Indian castes vs IQ. Well here you go:-

    https://books.google.co.in/books?id=9tZ4AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=chopra+iq+difference+between+castes&source=bl&ots=mUJt4iGaiY&sig=K5__8u3gFJA4AG6yXxjnwnzm4Xk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUm83W_MbQAhUEQI8KHW--DpEQ6AEIOjAC#v=onepage&q=chopra%20iq%20difference%20between%20castes&f=false

    Page 16:-

    "Looking at the overall results of IQ testing in India we conclude that significant differences in cognitive test scores by caste status do not seem to exist."

    There is no major differences between Indian castes. As per IQ tests done vs castes and not someone's blog. Book is above with many research papers.

    On non-verbal IQ tests (Raven’s Progressive Matrices), there are no significant differences among Indian castes.

    As it is observed via IQ testing (not someone’s blogs) that Vaishyas have higher non-verbal IQ than Kshatriya who have higher non-verbal IQ than Brahmins followed by SCs.

    Rather the difference between Vaishyas and Brahmins on non-verbal IQ tests (as per IQ research) is same as the difference between Brahmins and Scheduled Castes.

    Secondly, the differences among Indian castes is estimated to be less than 3 IQ points on non-verbal IQ tests.

    However on verbal IQ tests, the difference is 11 IQ points.

    And is more correlated to socio-economic status.

    However, Muslims score 5-6 points below on genes as they are incest and practice inbreeding.

    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/brahmins-one-of-the-poorest-and-maligned-castes-in-india/

    "Brahmins : One of the poorest and maligned ‘Castes’ in India".

    Brhamins, the so called most superior Indian group as per these blogs. Is also the poorest and hopeless ethnic group in India. With test scores at par with Scheduled Castes (as shown above).

    However, they are the most racist, supremacist and manipulative thugs who will troll on internet about their supremacy like Rec1man out of which these blogs are written. And should be just ignored.

    As Indians in UK score 97 after 4 years of residency after coming from 83 IQ. Entire India will have similar 14 points jump from 83 to 97 after Flynn is done and will be 83 IQ before Flynn effect.

    Jumping up 14 points is not just Flynn. There are Indians coming to UK claiming to speak English and taking IQ tests in English but their British English is not as good as they think it is at first. After a few more years their English improves and they are better able to take an English IQ test. Most Indians speak English only as a 2nd language and the English that they speak is Indian English which at this point has diverged considerably from British English. Even an American might lose a few points on a British IQ test when they start asking about the boot and the bonnet and the lift, etc.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    If you read my previous reply. It is clearly mentioned that it is "non-verbal IQ". Again I attach the source (Richard Lynn's book):-

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b132/1ab30f8e414e7e0b353979ddbab0e15bf523.pdf

    Page 56:-

    “First, rows 6 and 7 give non-verbal reasoning IQs of 83 for Indian children resident for fewer than four years in Britain and 97 for those resident in Britain for four or more years, indicating a gain of 14 IQ points arising from residence.”

    NON-VERBAL IQ !!!!

    English doesn't mater in non-verbal IQ tests as it is based on Raven's Progressive Matrices.
  202. @PandaAtWar

    http://akarlin.com/2012/08/rec1man-on-indian-iq/
    “Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc
    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.
    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs.”
     
    Please don't quote this highly subjective what-ifs and if-thens rubbish as a form of proof, because with likewise numerous groundless assumptions, Panda can very reasonablely deduct as well that the Earth is the center of the universe. ROFL

    Panda can very reasonably deduct as well that the Middle Kingdom is the center of the universe.

    There I fixed it for you.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Panda can very reasonably deduct as well that the Middle Kingdom is the centre of the unniverse, even without that many assumptions.

    You careless old bean! Rofl

  203. @DH

    Argentinians like to imagine themselves to be 100% European but outside of Buenos Aires with its large immigrant population (that arrived at the same time as the Ellis Island era in the US) it’s not really true.
     
    Argentinians who are of European stock like to say (not to imagine) that they are of European stock. Nothing wrong with that.
    Argentines whites are not as politically correct as US and European whites. Nothing wrong with that either.
    I have travelled the country extensively. Whites are there spread in the entire pampas region (not just Buenos Aires Province but also Santa Fe, La Pampa, San Luis), the central sierras of Cordoba, the wine region in the west (Mendoza, San Juan), the southern Patagonia provinces and also in large pockets in the Mesopotamian NE (Misiones, Corrientes, Entre Rios). In the NW provinces there are the old traditional white ruling classes, probably the most self-aware whites of the country due to the large % of amerindians from Bolivia and Peru, who have migrated there in the last decades. In some of Bs As City neighborhoods there is now also a large fraction of Bolivians, Paraguayans and Peruvians recently arrived.

    I was not referring to the Argentine ruling classes who have every right to say that they are European because they really are. What I was talking about (and this is true all over Latin America) that in Argentina if you are mixed race (partly indigenous) but connected to (even on the poor end of) Spanish culture rather than an Indian tribe, you still think of yourself as “white”. Rather than the “flight from white” that we have in America, they are still at the stage where people with more or less plausibly European features “pass” or consider themselve white, whereas in fact maybe 1/2 the population has at least some Indian admixture.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    The conscript soldiers captured in the Falklands war looked very Ameri-Indian when seen en masse by the side of the Brits.
  204. @Jack D
    Panda can very reasonably deduct as well that the Middle Kingdom is the center of the universe.

    There I fixed it for you.

    Panda can very reasonably deduct as well that the Middle Kingdom is the centre of the unniverse, even without that many assumptions.

    You careless old bean! Rofl

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  205. @Frau Katze
    What's the immigration situation like in Finland?

    Not good. Some 32,000 came in…supposedly 19,000 don’t qualify. Some 3-4 thousand have been put on jets back to whatever country they came from. 2-3000 have disappeared (withdrawn their asylum papers: Finland too cold; food bland; refugees complained that they are housed way outside of the capital city! snicker…) They are now “rounding them up” but it is a slow process (police don’t have guns) to get rid of the 10,ooo or so who don’t qualify – all able-bodied men. The families seem to be ok.

    There has been about 1050 rapes since last year – also women murdered. The white supremacists are very active….and, there are no laws to prevent them from marching and protesting – the refugees are definitely irked by the intense “Sons of Odin” and other groups. Finnish men are tall and fearless…and volatile.

    People, generally, have “caught on” to the social welfare costs, as the “healthy male refugees,” are expensive. There is much grumbling about the severe cuts in care for : disabled, elderly, children, education, in order to pay for the refugees. They will not get the money they were expecting, so many have gone to Sweden & Germany/Holland. In the end, Finland is too cold/remote for anyone but families to want to stay there. And, because of the weather, it is very hard to find women in the towns & cities 9 months of the year.

    The Migrant situation is not as hard as it is in the other European countries – but they have brought crime (muggings/rapes/theft). At least Putin, with Trump as president, has stopped human traffickers now, who trucked refugee men to the Eastern and Lappish borders – this was a BIG problem.

    Finns don’t like strangers, so it is a lonely place to get marooned in. And, there are Kurds there (after the Kuwait/Iraq war), “great refugees” from the early 90′s, and, the Kurds hate the Sunni Muslims, as you know. The Kurds have done well in Finland, and they are integrated, their women don’t wear headscarves, etc, and they have become university educated.Nobody likes the unintegrated Somalis…which there is something like 10,000 – not sure of the exact number since I live in the states. At least, Finnish media doesn’t play the PC game as much, since the society is mostly, ethnic Finns. But, like I said, the actual, true families seem to be ok; have been accepted.

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  206. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    I am surprised with the Welsh result.
    Traditionally, in Britain, the Welsh have had a reputation for quick wittedness and sharp practice, something like the Jews of Britain. Also traditionally, the Welsh had a reputation for a great aptitude and love for scholarship. Probably no other region of Britain has, over the centuries, contributed on a per capita basis more teachers and professors than the Welsh.
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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Good grief!

    In Builth Wells in the mountains of Mid Wales (hills really) in the 1950's I remember several older people around from outlying farms who had goitres. There was a time when UK salt was iodized. I think it started in WW2. I remember reading the label of Saxa salt where it proudly proclaimed its iodine content. Teachers talked about iodine in school. When did the iodine go?
  207. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    By the way: a little amusing how the scores of France, England, Germany ... are lowered by immigrants.
    As for Spain and Italy, there's a wide IQ gap between their North and South, and the scores here are, probably, the overall median value. (There's a large South-North IQ gap in Japan as well).

    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    selection for immigrants and fish diet (iodine) to maximize potential

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  208. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @twwu
    How come Ashkenazi Jews outperform WASPs by like 10 to 1 despite them having roughly similar IQ scores according to audicious epigone?

    How come Ashkenazi Jews outperform WASPs by like 10 to 1 despite them having roughly similar IQ scores according to audicious epigone?

    Lots of ethnic nepotism in certain areas: e.g. finance, media etc however I think there’s something else which effects all the longer-civilized populations.

    Leaving aside arguments about overall average IQ if you selected a group of WASPs and a similar size group from any of the longer civilized populations with the same IQ then i think the WASPs will have more ADD so they get out-competed on [swottiness / conscientousness].

    When it was just WASPs it didn’t matter as the lazy and bright ones out-competed the lazy and dumb ones and so they still became the doctors/scientists etc but with immigration of bright people from longer civilized populations they are increasingly squeezed out.

    If correct and if the ADD is a factor in innovation then this process will have (or already has had) a significant effect on total innovation.

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    • Replies: @Anon

    When it was just WASPs it didn’t matter as the lazy and bright ones out-competed the lazy and dumb ones and so they still became the doctors/scientists etc but with immigration of bright people from longer civilized populations they are increasingly squeezed out.
     
    This is stupid on a lot of levels. The reason why Anglo natives tend to be outcompeted is because most immigration to the Anglo nations is highly skilled. Low-skill mexican immigration has not dominated for over 10 years now. And even before that, there was a significant skilled component.

    The average Indian isn't immigrating. It's the top 5%. Same with other groups.

    Secondly, there was never a period in history when it was "just WASPs". Civilisations have been competing since the dawn of the ages. The rise of the West wasn't a fluke or a lucky accident. It was meticolous and drawn out over the centuries.

    But don't let me stop you from continuing being an idiot.
  209. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Jack D
    Jumping up 14 points is not just Flynn. There are Indians coming to UK claiming to speak English and taking IQ tests in English but their British English is not as good as they think it is at first. After a few more years their English improves and they are better able to take an English IQ test. Most Indians speak English only as a 2nd language and the English that they speak is Indian English which at this point has diverged considerably from British English. Even an American might lose a few points on a British IQ test when they start asking about the boot and the bonnet and the lift, etc.

    If you read my previous reply. It is clearly mentioned that it is “non-verbal IQ”. Again I attach the source (Richard Lynn’s book):-

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b132/1ab30f8e414e7e0b353979ddbab0e15bf523.pdf

    Page 56:-

    “First, rows 6 and 7 give non-verbal reasoning IQs of 83 for Indian children resident for fewer than four years in Britain and 97 for those resident in Britain for four or more years, indicating a gain of 14 IQ points arising from residence.”

    NON-VERBAL IQ !!!!

    English doesn’t mater in non-verbal IQ tests as it is based on Raven’s Progressive Matrices.

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  210. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anon

    How come Ashkenazi Jews outperform WASPs by like 10 to 1 despite them having roughly similar IQ scores according to audicious epigone?
     
    Lots of ethnic nepotism in certain areas: e.g. finance, media etc however I think there's something else which effects all the longer-civilized populations.

    Leaving aside arguments about overall average IQ if you selected a group of WASPs and a similar size group from any of the longer civilized populations with the same IQ then i think the WASPs will have more ADD so they get out-competed on [swottiness / conscientousness].

    When it was just WASPs it didn't matter as the lazy and bright ones out-competed the lazy and dumb ones and so they still became the doctors/scientists etc but with immigration of bright people from longer civilized populations they are increasingly squeezed out.

    If correct and if the ADD is a factor in innovation then this process will have (or already has had) a significant effect on total innovation.

    When it was just WASPs it didn’t matter as the lazy and bright ones out-competed the lazy and dumb ones and so they still became the doctors/scientists etc but with immigration of bright people from longer civilized populations they are increasingly squeezed out.

    This is stupid on a lot of levels. The reason why Anglo natives tend to be outcompeted is because most immigration to the Anglo nations is highly skilled. Low-skill mexican immigration has not dominated for over 10 years now. And even before that, there was a significant skilled component.

    The average Indian isn’t immigrating. It’s the top 5%. Same with other groups.

    Secondly, there was never a period in history when it was “just WASPs”. Civilisations have been competing since the dawn of the ages. The rise of the West wasn’t a fluke or a lucky accident. It was meticolous and drawn out over the centuries.

    But don’t let me stop you from continuing being an idiot.

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  211. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    The reason why Anglo natives tend to be outcompeted is because most immigration to the Anglo nations is highly skilled. .. The average Indian isn’t immigrating. It’s the top 5%.

    I’m comparing the segment of people who become doctors/lawyers and among that segment Anglos are less swotty than Jews/Indians/Chinese competing for those jobs.

    In environments where it was just Anglos competing – of which there were many within recent memory – the guy who was B+ academically without trying too hard still got to medical school whereas when competing with the more swotty ethnic groups working hard for an A they don’t.

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  212. @Anonymous
    Why are people in Singapore smarter than the other people of their same race?

    By the way: a little amusing how the scores of France, England, Germany ... are lowered by immigrants.
    As for Spain and Italy, there's a wide IQ gap between their North and South, and the scores here are, probably, the overall median value. (There's a large South-North IQ gap in Japan as well).

    As you suspect, there are significant differences between regions in Spain and Italy:

    http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888933433235

    (Regional PISA breakdown – excel format)

    Table B2.I.72 is instructive.

    Non-immigrant students – Mean PISA Science:

    Italy Bolzano – 522
    Italy Trento – 518
    Italy Lombaria – 510
    Italy Campania – 449

    Spain Madrid – 528
    Spain Castile Leon – 523
    Spain Navarre – 520
    Spain Aragon – 519
    Spain Catalonia – 518
    Spain Canary Islands – 479
    Spain Extremadura – 476
    Spain Andalusia – 475

    UK England – 520
    UK Northern Ireland – 509
    UK Scotland – 498
    UK Wales – 488

    Proximity to Switzerland is a fairly good predicator of European subregional scores… (With the Baltic exception).

    For benchmarking see http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888933433226

    Table I.7.4a Non-immigrant students – Mean PISA Science:

    Singapore – 550
    Japan – 539
    Switzerland – 527
    B-S-J-G (China) – 521
    Korea – 516
    France – 506
    Russia – 489
    Iceland – 478
    Greece – 461
    Chile – 449
    Uruguay – 437
    Romania – 435

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  213. @Autochthon
    Conceding data about patents are poor proxies for data about innovation while suggesting they are nevertheless the best we can do is risible. All recorded history and our lying eyes provide a surfeit of better data regarding the veritable deluge of invention and creativiry by Europeans and our diaspora versus the dearth of it by Asians and theirs. Cf. gunpowder and paper versus essentially every other significant technological advancement. (Nevermind the arts and humanities.) I'd start an illustraive list but I don't have that kind of time, and there is no honour in carrying on ungraciously after victory: just look to the example of how gracious Douglas MacArthur was to the vanquished after the flight of the Enola Gay (speaking of Occidental innovations over Oriental roboticism...). That example implicates the Japanese, and you imply allegiance to the Chinese, but then, even the Japanese have achieved far greater innovation and success than your ilk.

    A dictum: military technology is often a good reflection of a people's comparative innovation, because it is for obvious reasons not so readily shared, and more closely guarded from theft (and the Chinese steal intellectual property like nobody's business!). Yet the Chinese cannot so much as field an aircraft carrier worthy to be considered one by modern standards.

    Panda, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I don't mind saying so; my distaste stems in large part from my suspicion you are a parastic immivader, gleefully deriding the U.S.A. to praise China, despite having fled the latter to dwell in the former. Revealed preferences, hypocrisy, actions inconsistent with words...Hell's bells, a whole host of contemptible implications follow if my suspicion is correct.

    I think you are suffering from a severe case of the much- debunked and outdated Eurocentric hallucinations. You sound like a typical ignorant Eurocentric person who knows very little about the monumental achievements of China but loves to belittle them. The only reason the Western culture has dominated for the last 200 years is that it’s power has ascended greatly since the Industrial Revolution. Things are going to change in this century

    Before the Industrial Revolution, Europe was basically a copying and adaptive culture. The Greek civilization was NOT an ORIGINAL civilization like the Chinese civilization.

    The Greek civilization was heavily influenced by both Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations ( Greek myths and religion had their roots in various Mesopotamian and Egyptian beliefs).. The Greek architecture and medicine were adopted from Egypt and ancient Greeks extensively borrowed from Babylonians ( the ancestors of the present day Arabs) for it’s astronomy and mathematics and even it’s alphabet was based on the non- European semitic Phoenician alphabet. How about Christianity which was originated among non-European semitic people?. As you can see, the Greeks were the biggest copycats in the ancient world. During this ancient time period, in China there were Confucius, Laozi, Mozi, Zhangzi, Mencius, Sun tsu, etc whose thoughts were at least as great as those of any Greek thinkers. If anybody wants to find out the outstanding technological achievements of China up to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, they should read SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA by Joseph Needham which was picked as one of the 100 best English language non-fictions of the 20th century by Random House. I’m going to list some of many Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to the backward Europe through direct, indirect, stimulus diffusion before the Industrial Revolution (some of the Chinese technologies were even transmitted at the late stage of the Industrial Revolution). China invented compass, rudder, leeboard, centerboard, multi-mast, watertight compartments which Europe didn’t use for their ships until the late 18th century. Without adopting all these Chinese inventions, the European voyages of discovery wouldn’t have been possible. Also China invented not only paper but also printing including the movable type about 400 years before Gutenberg who had been vey likely influenced by the movable type developments in China and Korea beforehand, developed one. Without assimilating these Chinese inventions, the SPREAD of Renaissance would have been extremely difficult. China invented not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon, rocket including multi-stage ones, both land and sea mines, bomb, even hand grenade. All these Chinese military technologies were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect diffusion . Can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions? China even invented the mechanical clock in the 8th century with the invention of the ESCAPEMENT FOR EXACT TIME-KEEPING. This Chinese mechanical clock technology was first transmitted to the Islamic civilization then to the Moslem-occupied Spain. After assimilating the previous Chinese and Moslem clock -making technologies, in the early 14th century Europe finally developed more advanced mechanical clock, run by falling weights or springs rather than falling water or mercury. Even the European Enlightenment was heavily influenced by many of Chinese thoughts. As a matter of fact, many Enlightenment thinkers such as Montaigne, Leibniz, Voltaire, Quesnay, etc. were enamored with the ancient Chinese idea of mandate of heaven that essentially declared that an UNFIT king should be overthrown. These European scholars thought the mandate of heaven idea was much more enlightening than the rigid and primitive European idea of the divine right of king to rule forever no matter what. There is no doubt this Chinese idea of mandate of heaven influenced the French Revolution. Also these European thinkers had a high opinion of the Chinese bureaucratic system based on meritocracy through civil service examinations, while denouncing the privileges of the European hereditary aristocracy. Even the concept of LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM, also known as FREE- MARKET CAPITALISM (the most Ideal form of capitalism) was borne around the 6th century BC in China. Both Taoists and Confucian scholars believed in little or no state intervention in economic activities. From about 2nd century BC on, Chinese dynasties practiced free market economy while only intervening from time to time in iron and salt enterprises and also by and large they kept taxes low. The Chinese idea of laissez-faire capitalism greatly influenced the French economist Quesnay who in turn influenced Adam Smith. Also in the 18th century all things Chinese were a rage in Europe. Europeans copied Chinese architecture, interior decoration, tea-drinking, etc. As you can see it was the Europeans copying Chinese, not the other way around. It’s no accident China and India were the two BIGGEST economies in the world from the 1st century to the end of the 18th century. Also China invented blast furnace, coking – coal, so called- Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens’ Steel process, weaving machine( the British weaving machine was based on Italian design that in turn was based on original Chinese model. So in other words, the design of Chinese silk weaving machine was first transmitted to Italy in the13th century and later to Britain by the way of Italy but British modified the machine for the production of cotton fabrics ), drilling techniques for oil and natural gas ( China drilled for natural gas and transferred it through pipelines for heating and lighting starting in the 4th century BC, on the other hand Europe didn’t use natural gas until the 19th century but again Britain was the first country in Europe to use natural gas in 1798). All these Chinese inventions were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect or stimulus diffusion. Without using all these Chinese inventions, the Industrial Revolution wouldn’t have been possible. Even in agriculture, the backward Europe got modern horse collar, moldboard cast iron plow, rotary winnowing fan, MULTI -seed drill technologies and the techniques of row cultivation of crops and intense hoeing by horse-drawn hoes from China( with the exception of the horse collar which Europe adopted in the 8th century, the rest of the Chinese agricultural technologies were adopted by Europe only in the 18th century). This really shows how backward Europe was at the time. By adopting all these Chinese technologies, Britain could bring about an agricultural revolution in the 18th century These are just some of the ground- breaking Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to Europe before the Industrial Revolution. Even SCIENCE was born in the 11th century in the Islamic civilization with the birth of the EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD ( all ancient civilizations were pre-scientific) The backwards Europeans translated a very large amount of Islamic scientific writings into Latin and extensively studied them thus bringing SCIENCE to Europe. Specially Alhazen’s masterpiece, BOOK OF OPTICS which is recognized as the first scientific treatise in the world by many scholars had profound effects on many European scientists. Without the influence of the Islamic science, there would have been no Scientific Revolution in Europe. The relatively primitive Europeans learned not only science but also advanced math from the Islamic civilization in the Middle Ages. Also the Islamic architecture and literature greatly influenced Europe. As you can see Europe was basically a copying and adaptive culture before the Industrial Revolution. Even though Europe overtook China in SCIENCE in the 17th century. China was still ahead of Europe in TECHNOLOGY until about the end of the 18th century because there was disconnect between nascent scientific theories and implementing them for technological developments. Before the Industrial Revolution, almost all the technological improvements were made by craftsmen or technicians not by scientists. Even ancient China was far ahead of the Greco-Roman civilization in technology. For example, China was the only culture in the world that could melt iron ore by the 5th century BC. But Europe couldn’t melt iron ore until the late 14th century ( even though the blast furnace technology was known in some parts of the Scandinavia in the 8th century, it wasn’t widespread) . This ancient Chinese ability to melt iron ore made all the difference in the production of superior weapons, farming and industrial tools. According to Robert Temple, a well-respected scholar of the Oriental Studies, more than half of the inventions that laid foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution came from China. So all the narrow-minded Eurocentric people should remember that the Western scientific and technological achievements in the last 200 years were built on the prior Chinese and Islamic accomplishments. It just didn’t happen in a vacuum. The problem with the outdated Eurocentric people is that if Europe developed the same thing which China had already invented earlier, they falsely claim it as an “independent” European invention, instead of acknowledging the very strong possibility that Europe got the Chinese technology by direct or indirect or stimulus diffusion ( the movable type is a good example). If China had not declined in the 19th century and had a more powerful second industrial revolution ( China’s first industrial revolution— also world’s first industrial revolution occurred in the 11th century under Sung dynasty), we might be speaking Mandarin now, instead of English also studying Confucius, Laozi, Mozi, Mencius, instead of such overrated ancient Greeks as Socrates, Aristotle, Plato. What we are seeing now is the 200– year Western domination is coming to an end and the world is going BACK to the original Chinese predominance in economy and technology. The last 200 years of the Western domination was an ABERRATION from the long-running Chinese super achievements.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    All true so far as I know. That said, some of the prior claims are stretching things a bit. Europeans did much to make things practical. And I will defend Boyle as inventor of modern science.

    One a side note, Joseph Needham was Margaret Thatcher's favourite author. She used to buy and read each volume as soon as it was published. She finally met him in Cambridge when he was old but still writing. It is a rather lengthy series of books. Not a weekend read. Serious ability to give attention to densely factual subject matter required.
  214. @Autochthon
    I make no accusations; I state facts. Chinese disregard for rights in intellectual property is ubiquitous and well documented. I myself write from years of personal experience and my own expertise with intellectual property, including experience on the receiving end of dawn raids in which representatives of the Chinese government cavalierly and without due process seize computers from American and other foreign companies foolish enough to have set up laboratories in China (the Chinese routinely require foreign firms to establish laboratories in China in exchange for permission to sell widgets and otherwise conduct business there, and the foreign executives in their shortsighted greed comply). Of course, it's all a scam: as soon as the Chinese steal enough intellectual property from such operations to ramp up their knock-offs, the government finds some bogus reason or another—antitrust pretexts are one of the most common, and goofy, since the whole point of a patent is effectively a legal monopoly encouraged and permitted so as to stimulate innovation—to shut down the foreign operation to the benefit of the thieving Chinese, whose governmentally owned corporations then take the accused foreigners' market-share using the stolen technology. Imagine if, say, Intel or Microsoft were owned and operated by the American government, and that the federal courts, the International Trade Commission, the Department of Justice, et al. were constantly, conveniently, prosecuting foreign competitors and finding against them, and you will begin to understand the Chinese racket.

    I nevertheless make my arguments not from authority, but empiricism. Here is a primer on the topic for you with much greater detail:

    http://www.ipcommission.org/report/ip_commission_report_052213.pdf

    I note your and the Panda character's dismissal of my points with smug, silly remarks in the vein of "neener neener" even as you accuse me of resorting to impliedly unsubstantiated accusations. I welcome actual refutations of the widely documented theft of intellectual property by Chinese (and, indeed, their own corrupt government's contempt for enforcing laws regarding intellectual property even as duly litigated matters before legitimate tribunals everywhere else in the world consistently find egregious violations by the Chinese).

    Now, if you are making some kind of inarticulate argument that intellectual property itself is a concept that should not be respected as the basis for your idea that the theft of it is a whiner's last resort, that's another matter, and one requiring much more fundamental aspects of jurisprudence to be explained. Law school is expensive, though, so you'd best get cracking stealing other people's inventions and hoarding the ill gotten gains if you want to finance such an education.

    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, an America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries’ inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens’ novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages). You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN’T CHINA—– IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. China is no exception to the rule. Also before the Industrial Revolution the backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization

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