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Muhammad Ali and Black-On-Black Violence
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Here’s the single most famous photo of Muhammad Ali, as he casts off the oppressive shackles of traditional white sportsmanship and dares to screech abuse at the fallen body of Sheriff Bull Connor. This picture is universally beloved for marking the moment in 1965 of Black Liberation when blacks freed themselves finally to stand up to The Man. No more of the racially humiliating Joe Louis-style gentlemanliness. Chest-thumping, trash-talking black masculinity is unchained!

Except … you know … that’s not precisely Sheriff Bull Connor on the canvas being screamed at by Ali, that’s another black man, Sonny Liston.

In fact, this photo works subversively well as a metaphor for a revisionist history of the what really happened over the last half century: Black Liberation was egged on by the press boys in the front row because it was so mediagenic, but, like most whites, they largely moved their families to the suburbs to get away from it, and left blacks alone to do massive violence to each other in the name of keeping it real.

From today’s New York Times:

A Weekend in Chicago: Where Gunfire Is a Terrifying Norm
JUNE 4, 2016

Three days, 64 people shot, six of them dead: Memorial Day on the streets, and the violence that has engulfed families and neighborhoods.

… From Friday evening to the end of Monday, 64 people will have been shot in this city of 2.7 million, six of them fatally. In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white.

 
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  1. Trump is a White version of Ali.

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    • Replies: @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?
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  2. “Keepin’ it real”, eh? I’ll have “fake”, then, and lots of it, please.

    (And, no, no need to “bring the flava’”, either please. No, it’s quite alright…)

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  3. @Anonymous
    Trump is a White version of Ali.

    Who’s Trump’s Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

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    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    Liston threw the fight.
    , @Jackmcg
    No, Kristol is a jew. I'd say its Jeb Bush on the canvas.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hillary, naturally.
    , @Cagey Beast
    It is funny to know that Bill Kristol has already made such an ass of himself that someone will just have to play him in any film about Trump's road to the White House.
    , @Ace
    GOPe.
    , @PortersFavTroll
    Hill
    , @Father O'Hara
    Keen wit,my friend.Keen!
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  4. A tell-all about the Clintons?

    http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

    Now, who is going to write a book about Trump’s ugly secrets? Perhaps he will appoint his horse to the Senate?

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Only problem is only State Governors can appoint U.S. Senators. (And they can do that only under certain circumstances. ) (I get the reference to Caligula's horse.)
    , @Jim Sweeney
    Generally, there need to be ugly secrets before one can write a book about them...unless you choose to write lies. Were there ugly secrets, we'd have known about them long ago.
    , @Pericles
    You nearly had Secretariat for Vice President.
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  5. One of many pitfalls tripped by American blacks is picking the worst of allies.

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  6. @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

    Liston threw the fight.

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    • Replies: @monkey
    Probably threw both, not very convincingly.
    Many of Ali's opponents came to sticky ends, besides Liston. Sonny Banks knocked him down in their 1962 bout, and was killed in a 1965 bout with Leotis Martin. Zora Folley was found in a motel pool with massive head injuries. Oscar Bonavena was very unhappy with the refereeing of their 1970 match, his only inside the distance loss, and was shot dead in Nevada in 1975.
    Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years. Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006. Alejandro Lavorante was another opponent who died from injuries received in a later bout.
    , @Sean
    No, the film shows Liston's back and shoulder muscles convulsed on the knockout, he had spent the night drinking heavily as was his habit. Probably a junky too.
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  7. “… From Friday evening to the end of Monday, 64 people will have been shot in this city of 2.7 million, six of them fatally. In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white.”

    No mention of the race of the shootists, I see.

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    • Replies: @Gina
    At the end they list the race of the dead - vast majority black, a sprinkling of hispanic, and I think just 1 white. You'd have to think the vast majority of shootists are also black....
    , @Boomstick
    They can't say for certain what the race of the shooter is because they don't have him in custody. Crime of this sort is almost entirely intra-racial, though.

    Only around a third of the murders in Chicago are considered solved, with an even lower conviction rate. The numbers in Chicago and other cities taken together are large enough to significantly influence the national statistic for "percent of murders committed by Blacks."
    , @The Alarmist

    "No mention of the race of the shootists, I see."
     
    No need ... the only important fact was that the victims were shot, as in shot with a gun. The guns are the problem, got it?
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  8. Maybe there was a predecessor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Johnson_(boxer).

    Victorian gentlemanly amateur? Nah.

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    • Replies: @Lurker
    I think the Ali schtick would only work in the TV era, not before.
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  9. “No more of the racially humiliating Joe Louis-style gentlemanliness. Chest-thumping, trash-talking black masculinity is unchained!”

    Having Negro style masculinity is bad if you want to stay out of trouble with the police and want to live a drama free life. But I recommend for East Asian men and White men to adopt Negro style masculinity only for trying to pick up women.

    Adopt the positive aspects of Negro masculinity, but none of the negative aspects of it. If you do that, you basically get Italian masculinity.

    Italian men aggressively pursue women just like Black men do, but commit crime at the level of WASP men. It’s a perfect balance, it’s the best of both worlds.

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    • Replies: @Mark2
    There's nothing "positive" about any of it. Machismo is a retrograde race to the bottom.
    , @Jim Christian
    Negro style masculinity is fine. They use it against each other, no other race will be around these animals. Who cares, their population is whittled down by each other every night. Don't argue the situation, just be happy it's happening. I don't want to go to downtown DC, Detroit or Philly anyway, nothing is there but Blaxx anyway. That they destroy each other in such numbers is a very, very good thing.
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  10. Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

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    • Replies: @CK
    He says more in two hundred well chosen words than some folks do in 15,000.
    , @idle hands
    Is this in service of promoting a new series of intra-blog prize bouts? If so I think you guys may need to outsource the trash talking, which is cheap and abundant elsewhere... Law of Comparative Advantage
    , @landlubber
    There are many published works which contain everything on which Sailer does have something valuable to say. They are found in the journals section of your local bookstore.
    , @PiltdownMan
    It's his blog. It's free to read. No registration necessary.

    A curious complaint.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Jonathan, My local newspaper publishes daily opinion columns by syndicated writers who are almost 100% liberal in their doctrine. So see how this works, if you want to read a different bent to a story, you visit a blog, like Steve's, like you just did. So what your complaint?
    , @JimB
    Part of Steve's job is to debunk the Narrative in real time. Even on the Drudge Report you will see a rush to deify this pugilistic cretin.

    Muhammed Ali was a saint of the antiwar and civil rights movement for having refused to register for the draft, essentially saying he owed the US nothing as a black man. And he is held up as a model of black grit and clean living, even as he became a dupe of the black muslim church who exploited him to make money and forced him to fight long after symptoms of permanent brain injury were apparent. With friends like the Black Muslims, who needs enemies? In the end, a group of sports loving white businessmen charitably worked to create endorsement deals to put him financially back in shape for his retirement.

    In the end, Ali was a lousy model for black youth, teaching them full throated high self regard based on nothing, the culture of dissing, and the imperative of settling meaningless arguments over who's the best with violence.

    , @V Vega

    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.
     
    After reading your fey criticism of Mr. Sailor's essay, I decided to wade in to your latest missive, and good GOD, man...

    To quote a famous writer commenting on Jack Kerouac:
    "That's not writing. That's typing!"

    Hire an editor, man!
    , @unpc downunder
    Perhaps it would be a good time for Steve to come out with a greatest hits compilation and put it out as an ebook on Amazon.
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  11. > In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white. [snip] of the alleged assailants are black, [snip] are Hispanic, and [snip] are white.

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    • Replies: @Big Bill
    Given those stats, murders in Chicago don't seem to be a "Terrifying Norm" for everyone.
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  12. More subversive, because Ali never landed a punch, Liston simply took a dive. In fact it’s completely unreal.

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    • Replies: @Unit472
    George Chavalo said Elijah Muhammeds Nation of Islam told Liston to lose the fight or be killed!
    , @Connecticut Famer
    Both Liston fights have been subject to conspiracy theory. Liston was known to be consorting with "The Boys" (in the person of Frankie Carbo) and was something of a black Luca Brazzi. One theory holds that in both fights he was under orders to fold his tent so to speak.
    , @Tracy
    No, Liston got hit -- but it didn't look like the sort of hit that should've taken him out. In their first fight, it seemed as if Liston was fighting dirty, with something on his gloves that got in Ali's (er, Clay's) eyes. It's all weird.
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  13. @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

    No, Kristol is a jew. I’d say its Jeb Bush on the canvas.

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  14. Haven’t black homicide rates been roughly the same since before the Civil War?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    64 were shot over the weekend in Chicago, and only 6 out of the 64 were killed. That's a 9% kill rate. Presumably medical advances have made these shootings less fatal. If we account for this, would the homicide rates be higher?
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    The first systematic study of homicide was done in the early 1950s by Marvin Wolfgang, based on a sample of Philadelphia police reports. The work was published in book form in 1958. Wolfgang grudgingly noted the disproportionate number of Negro homicide victims and perpetrators. Ultimately Wolfgang's key variables pretty much specified the data collected in the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports, an annual data collection effort that began nearly two decades later. Before Wolfgang and the later SHR the evidence is pretty much anecdotal but tends in the same direction.
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  15. @Wanderer
    A tell-all about the Clintons?

    http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

    Now, who is going to write a book about Trump's ugly secrets? Perhaps he will appoint his horse to the Senate?

    Only problem is only State Governors can appoint U.S. Senators. (And they can do that only under certain circumstances. ) (I get the reference to Caligula’s horse.)

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    • Replies: @Wanderer
    Damn. I was going to add a suggestion that he could appoint his horse to the High Court.
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  16. A great racialist and nationalist has died:

    A firm believer in self-help:

    http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/1999/oct/17/life1.lifemagazine

    What’s not to like?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Incidentally, his daughter married a white man. I wonder if it was her way of rebelling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvOa72BUAi0
    , @cipher
    Ali (Clay) was a great American. Beloved by millions both here and abroad. Thank you for posting that interview.
    , @anon
    Personally I think Ali was right on about his views on people preferring their own kind. The British interviewer comes across to me as a pompous ass. I have to wonder if he really believed his liberal bull**** or just felt the need to parrot some lines, even though political correctness/cultural Marxism wasn't that strong back then.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "What's not to like?"

    Want a list or just the highlights?

    Did he serve when asked to? Say what you will about Joe Louis (who did serve and didn't use CO and other trickery to dodge the draft), when he knocked out Max Schmeling in '35, it was like he was fighting for the US on a much larger scale (as world events would later prove). Louis is similiar in that vein with Jesse Owens's '36 Olympics performance. Ali, by contrast, was just a loud mouthed dim witted thug. He really wasn't any different than say, Mike Tyson. But perhaps some here as well as the US will mourn Tyson's passing one day. And of course apparently Tyson supports Trump, so "obviously" he can't be all that bad.

    As far as popular culture icons in the US, one could easily write the same lines about Ali one day about Snoop Dog. You can find various interviews over the years about his views on self-reliance, etc. He has an intact family and sponsors various charities (e.g. Pee Wee Football in Oakland area to raise money for various charities). See? Calvin Broadas is probably a natural GOP or a natural conservative, he just doesn't know it yet.

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  17. @ic1000
    > In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white. [snip] of the alleged assailants are black, [snip] are Hispanic, and [snip] are white.

    Given those stats, murders in Chicago don’t seem to be a “Terrifying Norm” for everyone.

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  18. @jimmyriddle
    Liston threw the fight.

    Probably threw both, not very convincingly.
    Many of Ali’s opponents came to sticky ends, besides Liston. Sonny Banks knocked him down in their 1962 bout, and was killed in a 1965 bout with Leotis Martin. Zora Folley was found in a motel pool with massive head injuries. Oscar Bonavena was very unhappy with the refereeing of their 1970 match, his only inside the distance loss, and was shot dead in Nevada in 1975.
    Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years. Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006. Alejandro Lavorante was another opponent who died from injuries received in a later bout.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    That is interesting. Maybe Liston did throw the fight, but looking at the 'phantom punch' in slow motion, it is obvious that the punch did land and hit normal to the chin. It reminds me of some of the punches Anderson Silva has landed. Maybe Liston did also throw the fight I am not sure. The punch may have been enough to knock him out.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo
    , @prosa123
    "Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years"

    Untrue. He died after a series of strokes.
    , @prosa123
    "Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years"

    Untrue. He died after a series of strokes.
    , @CJ
    Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006.

    A minor quibble, but he was actually beaten to death with a steel pipe wielded by his nephew Harold Berbick. That happened in Jamaica, where Berbick had returned after being deported from both Canada and the United States. Incidentally, Berbick did not come from an impoverished background; I once saw a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with his father, then the director of Jamaica's National Banana Marketing Board.
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  19. “In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white.”

    Why does the article leave out the race of the perpetrators who shot those 52 Blacks? Do these Chicago shooters of Blacks racially look like Dr. Bob Hartley, Ferris Bueller, Kevin McCallister, and Uncle Buck?

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  20. Sailer, you should change your first name to Specious.

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    • Replies: @Ace
    A drive-by comment.
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  21. Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately exonerate the white people involved, if at all possible. We’ll worry about the non-white perspective later, if there’s time

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    • Replies: @johnny memeonic
    Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately condemn the white people involved of racism. We’ll worry about the white perspective later, if there’s time.
    , @Marty
    He's blaming the white sportswriters, stupid.
    , @D. K.
    No evil White man to blame for the Clay/Ali - Liston II controversy:

    ***

    In 1965, he refereed the controversial world heavyweight championship bout between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston. Walcott lost the count as Ali circled around a floored Liston and Walcott tried to get him back to a neutral corner. Then Walcott looked outside the ring (presumably to the ringside count keeper) as Ali and Liston went at each other before Walcott instructed them to keep on fighting, then Walcott approached the fighters and abruptly stopped the fight. Walcott would never be appointed as a referee after this bout.

    ***

    [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Joe_Walcott ]

    'Jersey Joe' Walcott, coincidentally, died, at age 80, on the 30th anniversary of Clay-Liston I.
    , @idle hands
    Try reading the post again, you bird-brained mush-mouth 50s-kitsch bath toy. The 3rd graf ID's the pasty prog "other white meat" media who facilitate the bogus BoBo-bait, i.e. boundless brutality of bro-tastic black-on-black battles -- to wit, "Going Bonkers In Yonkers," as the misery of minorities is mined maliciously, all in the name of munificence, for beaucoup bucks and Burberry/Benetton backslapping on your slime-time Oscars onani-cast. Black Trek TNG greets a broken-down Bartertown reality of PAIN, while you circle the DRAIN (actually, I'm starting to sound like Clubber LANG...)
    , @Richard Steele
    Typical Tiny Duck crap--no substance, just troll baiting. Fuck off to Huffington Post, douche.
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  22. @Dave Pinsen
    Haven't black homicide rates been roughly the same since before the Civil War?

    64 were shot over the weekend in Chicago, and only 6 out of the 64 were killed. That’s a 9% kill rate. Presumably medical advances have made these shootings less fatal. If we account for this, would the homicide rates be higher?

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    • Replies: @Boomstick
    Handgun rounds are not exceptionally lethal. The fatality rate for handgun wounds seems to hover around 15%, so 9% fatality rate for that weekend is probably just noise.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Anonymous, 64 shot, is not even the number of shootings, just the number of victims. These are war zone numbers. The U of Chicago published a study a few years back that stated that the average costs of treating a gunshot victim is $84,000, of course less for some and extremely higher for others. Many gunshot wounds are life changing, resulting in full or partial paralysis, amputation or digestive system resectioning. In actually combat there are more wounds caused by shrapnel than bullets but the thugs aren't using mortars or IEDs, yet.
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  23. Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    They have good doctors in Chicago. Several saved my life from cancer in 1997.
    , @Jefferson
    "Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?"

    These Dindu Nuffin gangbangers are not Navy SEALs or SWAT and most of them do not shoot their enemies at point blank range. Also most of them do not aim for the head when they shoot their enemies.


    Rob O'Neill killed Osama Bin Laden by shooting him in the head.
    , @27 year old
    Poor shot placement
    , @White Guy In Japan
    Holding the pistol sideways may be a factor.
    , @Big Bill
    Check out http://www.heyjackass.com.

    It is the "must see" website for all stats on Chicago shootings.

    They have a nice chart of shot placement for each shooting.
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  24. @prosa123
    Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?

    They have good doctors in Chicago. Several saved my life from cancer in 1997.

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    • Replies: @Polynikes
    More the style of violence than hospitals. Recklessly firing into crowds of people and drive by gang-style shootings tend to have lots of bullets and little aim.
    , @Lugash
    They can't even hit at point blank range. It's an emotional release for them:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhMwjYFHCLc
    , @JimB
    Having several of the nation's top teaching hospitals just off Lake Shore Drive guarantees a generous supply of good doctors for Chicagoans.
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  25. @Dave Pinsen
    Haven't black homicide rates been roughly the same since before the Civil War?

    The first systematic study of homicide was done in the early 1950s by Marvin Wolfgang, based on a sample of Philadelphia police reports. The work was published in book form in 1958. Wolfgang grudgingly noted the disproportionate number of Negro homicide victims and perpetrators. Ultimately Wolfgang’s key variables pretty much specified the data collected in the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, an annual data collection effort that began nearly two decades later. Before Wolfgang and the later SHR the evidence is pretty much anecdotal but tends in the same direction.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    http://www.amren.com/news/2008/06/the_negro_crime/
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  26. @Bill Jones
    "… From Friday evening to the end of Monday, 64 people will have been shot in this city of 2.7 million, six of them fatally. In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white."

    No mention of the race of the shootists, I see.

    At the end they list the race of the dead – vast majority black, a sprinkling of hispanic, and I think just 1 white. You’d have to think the vast majority of shootists are also black….

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  27. Marty [AKA "coot veal or cot deal"] says:

    As long as everybody wears “42″ on April 15th, black people will strive to be like Jackie Robinson, and everything will be fine.

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  28. @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

    Hillary, naturally.

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    • Replies: @Tim Howells
    Great answer!
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  29. @Tiny Duck
    Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately exonerate the white people involved, if at all possible. We'll worry about the non-white perspective later, if there's time

    Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately condemn the white people involved of racism. We’ll worry about the white perspective later, if there’s time.

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  30. Marty [AKA "Harvard Hates America"] says:
    @Tiny Duck
    Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately exonerate the white people involved, if at all possible. We'll worry about the non-white perspective later, if there's time

    He’s blaming the white sportswriters, stupid.

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  31. @Big Bill
    A great racialist and nationalist has died:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Ka40KovVo

    A firm believer in self-help:

    http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/1999/oct/17/life1.lifemagazine

    What's not to like?

    Incidentally, his daughter married a white man. I wonder if it was her way of rebelling.

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    • Replies: @bomag
    her way of rebelling

    She comes across in this clip as very proud of her father, and his genetic contribution to her kids.

    A little breath of HBD.
    , @Santoculto
    He married a smart black woman**

    And their sons, they born cognitively smart*
    , @Dr Hook
    His grandson looks like a young James Remar.
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  32. @Jus' Sayin'...
    The first systematic study of homicide was done in the early 1950s by Marvin Wolfgang, based on a sample of Philadelphia police reports. The work was published in book form in 1958. Wolfgang grudgingly noted the disproportionate number of Negro homicide victims and perpetrators. Ultimately Wolfgang's key variables pretty much specified the data collected in the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports, an annual data collection effort that began nearly two decades later. Before Wolfgang and the later SHR the evidence is pretty much anecdotal but tends in the same direction.
    Read More
    • Replies: @Marty
    That Amren reprint of the 1958 article from Time puts the lie to the claim of several commenters here that the black population of San Francisco fell sharply in recent years. According to Time, in 1958 SF was 7% black. But according to the census, it was 7.8% in 2000 and 6.1 in 2010.
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  33. @Steve Sailer
    They have good doctors in Chicago. Several saved my life from cancer in 1997.

    More the style of violence than hospitals. Recklessly firing into crowds of people and drive by gang-style shootings tend to have lots of bullets and little aim.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
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  34. @Tiny Duck
    Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately exonerate the white people involved, if at all possible. We'll worry about the non-white perspective later, if there's time

    No evil White man to blame for the Clay/Ali – Liston II controversy:

    ***

    In 1965, he refereed the controversial world heavyweight championship bout between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston. Walcott lost the count as Ali circled around a floored Liston and Walcott tried to get him back to a neutral corner. Then Walcott looked outside the ring (presumably to the ringside count keeper) as Ali and Liston went at each other before Walcott instructed them to keep on fighting, then Walcott approached the fighters and abruptly stopped the fight. Walcott would never be appointed as a referee after this bout.

    ***

    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Joe_Walcott ]

    ‘Jersey Joe’ Walcott, coincidentally, died, at age 80, on the 30th anniversary of Clay-Liston I.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Ali is standing over Liston in the photo above (taken by Frank Sinatra I believe). Ali ran around the ring and stood right over Liston. but what the rules mandate is going to a neutral corner, and Wallcott was quite correct in not counting Liston out.

    Wallcott's mistake was in allowing, himself to be influenced by Nat Fleischer the venerable owner of Ring magazine who climbed through the ropes after the contest had been restarted and said Liston was down for more than 10 seconds so it was over. This was actually beside the point.

    Against Oscar Bonavena, Ali not only stood over his downed opponent instead of going to a neutral corner, he took an advantage by finishing him off as soon as he had got up. Ali was given an awful lot of leeway. Liston on the other hand was the champion that nobody, black or white, wanted, JFK and the NAACP tried to keep Patterson from fighting Liston.

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  35. The key character development of the movie “Creed” was from beating up black guys outside the ring to beating up white guys inside the ring.

    https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/03/12/creed/

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  36. @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    He says more in two hundred well chosen words than some folks do in 15,000.

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  37. I fail to understand why black on black violence is worth writing about. It’s perfectly natural for blacks to beat and murder each other. It’s not a aberration it’s a feature.

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  38. @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

    It is funny to know that Bill Kristol has already made such an ass of himself that someone will just have to play him in any film about Trump’s road to the White House.

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  39. @prosa123
    Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?

    “Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?”

    These Dindu Nuffin gangbangers are not Navy SEALs or SWAT and most of them do not shoot their enemies at point blank range. Also most of them do not aim for the head when they shoot their enemies.

    Rob O’Neill killed Osama Bin Laden by shooting him in the head.

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  40. @Hibernian
    Only problem is only State Governors can appoint U.S. Senators. (And they can do that only under certain circumstances. ) (I get the reference to Caligula's horse.)

    Damn. I was going to add a suggestion that he could appoint his horse to the High Court.

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  41. @Tiny Duck
    Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately exonerate the white people involved, if at all possible. We'll worry about the non-white perspective later, if there's time

    Try reading the post again, you bird-brained mush-mouth 50s-kitsch bath toy. The 3rd graf ID’s the pasty prog “other white meat” media who facilitate the bogus BoBo-bait, i.e. boundless brutality of bro-tastic black-on-black battles — to wit, “Going Bonkers In Yonkers,” as the misery of minorities is mined maliciously, all in the name of munificence, for beaucoup bucks and Burberry/Benetton backslapping on your slime-time Oscars onani-cast. Black Trek TNG greets a broken-down Bartertown reality of PAIN, while you circle the DRAIN (actually, I’m starting to sound like Clubber LANG…)

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    IQ, it is good to vent and to vent in an amusing way. Kudos.
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  42. The Malcolm X, Cassius X, Elijah Muhammad story is very interesting. Ali learned a lot from Malcolm. Then Ali turned his back on him as Elijah had him killed.

    http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Friendship-Between-Muhammad/dp/0465079709/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1465097895&sr=8-1&keywords=malcolm+x+muhammad+ali

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  43. @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    Is this in service of promoting a new series of intra-blog prize bouts? If so I think you guys may need to outsource the trash talking, which is cheap and abundant elsewhere… Law of Comparative Advantage

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  44. @Wanderer
    A tell-all about the Clintons?

    http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

    Now, who is going to write a book about Trump's ugly secrets? Perhaps he will appoint his horse to the Senate?

    Generally, there need to be ugly secrets before one can write a book about them…unless you choose to write lies. Were there ugly secrets, we’d have known about them long ago.

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  45. @Big Bill
    A great racialist and nationalist has died:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Ka40KovVo

    A firm believer in self-help:

    http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/1999/oct/17/life1.lifemagazine

    What's not to like?

    Ali (Clay) was a great American. Beloved by millions both here and abroad. Thank you for posting that interview.

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  46. L7's says:

    I used to train under a wonderful old boxing coach named Tommy Rawson. He was on the boxing commission of new England at the time of the second liston fight.he had to drive up to Maine from boston to address reports that liston wasn’t training.he told liston if he didn’t start at least going through the motions he was gonna cancel the fight and liston complied . Something does seem odd about the whole event…anyone know how a title fight ended up in little old Maine?

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    • Replies: @fnn
    "Something does seem odd about the whole event…anyone know how a title fight ended up in little old Maine?"

    Wikipedia has a pretty detailed account of the whole series of controversies related to the fight-including why it wound up taking place in little Lewiston, Maine:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston#Lewiston.2C_Maine
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  47. @prosa123
    Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?

    Poor shot placement

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  48. Ethnic cleansing is a bitch, the Latinos are still “whacking” blacks on the streets of SoCal after 30 years of “drive byes” even though most Blacks have moved to Palmdale or “Hatlanta”, I dont think they were ever more than 15% in LA County, now down to about 5%, Chicago will take 5 decades of street murders or more depending on federal immigration skintones before the violence slows.

    The ethnic cleaning murder rate always runs a “Bell Curve”, Chicago is in the beginning near the rim before the long steep spike (50 years) followed by a plateau and slow decline to stability.

    Who knows the blacks may fight off the Mexicans, one thing is fore sure Chicago is going non-white fast, no white voters, no treasury defense, no affordability.

    One giant CRA GHETTO owned by banks like Detroit and Bell.

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  49. @prosa123
    Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?

    Holding the pistol sideways may be a factor.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    I remember that even an old episode of CSI (the original) mocked the rap-video sideways gun shooter and used science to back it up. The crime labbers figured out that the scar on the wannabe-ganster-rapper's cheek came from a shell casing that flew up and burned his cheek---because the idiot had fired the gun sideways, causing the casing to hit him in the face as opposed to being harmlessly released to the side.
    , @anon
    MTYHBUSTERS did a interesting show on this and found the sideways "gangsta" style of shooting was by far the most ineffective way to shoot someone. In some tests accuracy was as low as 1%.
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  50. @monkey
    Probably threw both, not very convincingly.
    Many of Ali's opponents came to sticky ends, besides Liston. Sonny Banks knocked him down in their 1962 bout, and was killed in a 1965 bout with Leotis Martin. Zora Folley was found in a motel pool with massive head injuries. Oscar Bonavena was very unhappy with the refereeing of their 1970 match, his only inside the distance loss, and was shot dead in Nevada in 1975.
    Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years. Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006. Alejandro Lavorante was another opponent who died from injuries received in a later bout.

    That is interesting. Maybe Liston did throw the fight, but looking at the ‘phantom punch’ in slow motion, it is obvious that the punch did land and hit normal to the chin. It reminds me of some of the punches Anderson Silva has landed. Maybe Liston did also throw the fight I am not sure. The punch may have been enough to knock him out.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Ouch.

    Real boxing doesn't look much like a Rocky movie, where everything is telegraphed so viewers can follow what's going on.

    Boxing is kind of like hockey where the action tended to be too quick to really follow on pre-HD television. I watched a lot of Olympic boxing on TV in 1976, but I had a hard time following who was winning from what I was seeing.

    Did they have instant replay set up for the closed circuit telecast?

    Former champ James J. "Cinderella Man" Braddock was in the front row and told a reporter: "I have a feeling that this guy (Ali) is a lot better than any of us gave him credit for," Braddock said. "It isn't the knockout punch that sticks in my mind as much as a punch he let go (earlier)....It was a right to Liston's jaw and it shook him to his shoetops. For all we know, it could have been the one that set up the knockout."

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  51. @monkey
    Probably threw both, not very convincingly.
    Many of Ali's opponents came to sticky ends, besides Liston. Sonny Banks knocked him down in their 1962 bout, and was killed in a 1965 bout with Leotis Martin. Zora Folley was found in a motel pool with massive head injuries. Oscar Bonavena was very unhappy with the refereeing of their 1970 match, his only inside the distance loss, and was shot dead in Nevada in 1975.
    Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years. Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006. Alejandro Lavorante was another opponent who died from injuries received in a later bout.

    “Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years”

    Untrue. He died after a series of strokes.

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    • Replies: @Gato de la Biblioteca
    The car accident happened in 1986, and Norton spent several years in a coma before coming out of it. Norton died many years later in 2013.
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  52. @monkey
    Probably threw both, not very convincingly.
    Many of Ali's opponents came to sticky ends, besides Liston. Sonny Banks knocked him down in their 1962 bout, and was killed in a 1965 bout with Leotis Martin. Zora Folley was found in a motel pool with massive head injuries. Oscar Bonavena was very unhappy with the refereeing of their 1970 match, his only inside the distance loss, and was shot dead in Nevada in 1975.
    Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years. Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006. Alejandro Lavorante was another opponent who died from injuries received in a later bout.

    “Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years”

    Untrue. He died after a series of strokes.

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  53. @Steve Sailer
    They have good doctors in Chicago. Several saved my life from cancer in 1997.

    They can’t even hit at point blank range. It’s an emotional release for them:

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  54. @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    There are many published works which contain everything on which Sailer does have something valuable to say. They are found in the journals section of your local bookstore.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    There are many published works which contain everything on which Sailer does have something valuable to say.
     
    Uhh, that's a straw man. To be clear, I said that Sailer does not always have something of value to say. I did not say that he never has anything valuable to say. Those are two completely separate propositions.

    For example, the idea here that the boxing match between Ali and Liston has something to do with black on black crime is pretty self-evidently a brain fart.

    He recently wrote something saying that the O.J. Simpson case encapsulates the relationship between blacks and whites in America. Now, very many A-list black celebrities marry white women. As far as I can recall, none of them ever murder their wives. Except for O.J. probably. To take something that is an utterly unique case and say it encapsulates race relations in America is pretty bloody bizarre and, when I read it, I actually thought it was border-line demented.
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  55. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hillary, naturally.

    Great answer!

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  56. CJ says:
    @monkey
    Probably threw both, not very convincingly.
    Many of Ali's opponents came to sticky ends, besides Liston. Sonny Banks knocked him down in their 1962 bout, and was killed in a 1965 bout with Leotis Martin. Zora Folley was found in a motel pool with massive head injuries. Oscar Bonavena was very unhappy with the refereeing of their 1970 match, his only inside the distance loss, and was shot dead in Nevada in 1975.
    Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years. Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006. Alejandro Lavorante was another opponent who died from injuries received in a later bout.

    Trevor Berbick was killed with an axe in 2006.

    A minor quibble, but he was actually beaten to death with a steel pipe wielded by his nephew Harold Berbick. That happened in Jamaica, where Berbick had returned after being deported from both Canada and the United States. Incidentally, Berbick did not come from an impoverished background; I once saw a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with his father, then the director of Jamaica’s National Banana Marketing Board.

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  57. OT: a nice quote by Tila Tequila, former porn star and now twitter nazi, on ‘Fash the Nation 42′ (https://radio.therightstuff.biz/2016/06/04/fash-the-nation-week-42/), ~89:30. She came back to Houston after it’d been diversified. She says the intent of section 8 is to put blacks on their best behavior, get them out of their bad environments, but that “that’s not how it works, they dominate the neighborhood and chase out the nice people” (paraphrase). Promises good times for Obama’s Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing.

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    • Replies: @Spotted Toad
    Some economists studied the Houston Section 8 lottery; the applicants who won the lottery and received the housing voucher committed more crimes, mostly assaults. Men who won the lottery were twice as likely to get arrested than men who applied for Section 8 but lost. Basically, since spending the voucher is fungible with other spending, you can get drunk (or high, perhaps) more often if you win than if you don't, and consequently get in more fights. The voucher had no effect on women's propensity to commit crimes.

    https://economics.nd.edu/assets/153486/carr_jillian_jmp.pdf

    This is consistent with other findings that transfers fungible with cash tend to increase crime in the short term (aside from any increases in the long term due to "welfare dependency," change in culture, etc.)
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  58. @Anonym
    That is interesting. Maybe Liston did throw the fight, but looking at the 'phantom punch' in slow motion, it is obvious that the punch did land and hit normal to the chin. It reminds me of some of the punches Anderson Silva has landed. Maybe Liston did also throw the fight I am not sure. The punch may have been enough to knock him out.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo

    Ouch.

    Real boxing doesn’t look much like a Rocky movie, where everything is telegraphed so viewers can follow what’s going on.

    Boxing is kind of like hockey where the action tended to be too quick to really follow on pre-HD television. I watched a lot of Olympic boxing on TV in 1976, but I had a hard time following who was winning from what I was seeing.

    Did they have instant replay set up for the closed circuit telecast?

    Former champ James J. “Cinderella Man” Braddock was in the front row and told a reporter: “I have a feeling that this guy (Ali) is a lot better than any of us gave him credit for,” Braddock said. “It isn’t the knockout punch that sticks in my mind as much as a punch he let go (earlier)….It was a right to Liston’s jaw and it shook him to his shoetops. For all we know, it could have been the one that set up the knockout.”

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    • Replies: @Anonym

    Ouch.

    Real boxing doesn’t look much like a Rocky movie, where everything is telegraphed so viewers can follow what’s going on.

    Boxing is kind of like hockey where the action tended to be too quick to really follow on pre-HD television. I watched a lot of Olympic boxing on TV in 1976, but I had a hard time following who was winning from what I was seeing.

    Did they have instant replay set up for the closed circuit telecast?

    Former champ James J. “Cinderella Man” Braddock was in the front row and told a reporter: “I have a feeling that this guy (Ali) is a lot better than any of us gave him credit for,” Braddock said. “It isn’t the knockout punch that sticks in my mind as much as a punch he let go (earlier)….It was a right to Liston’s jaw and it shook him to his shoetops. For all we know, it could have been the one that set up the knockout.”
     
    I have no idea whether there was instant replay. I highly doubt it, given the phantom punch controversy. If they could see that footage, it would remove a lot of the contention. My post actually understates my belief as to whether Liston was legitimately knocked out. That blow is definitely believable as a KO punch, but who knows whether it did - the crumple started straight away though, and that sort of thing would be hard to time especially as he didn't see it coming. OTOH, a fix is generally arranged with the predetermined loser of the fight, as I understand it. So there could be a situation where a fix was arranged and Liston was legitimately knocked out. The FBI seems to think a fix was in.

    The particular AS knockout I was thinking of was the Griffen knockout. There are lots of slow motion replays after it, but at full speed it is hard to see what actually happens, as you say. The punch is also at right angles to the face, hitting the jaw.

    https://youtu.be/Rt1IIJMpcgI?t=42

    I concur with what you say about boxing (and MMA) being a sport where sometimes it's easy to underestimate a punch because it's too fast to see properly.

    BTW is your email still the aol one?
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  59. The famous picture Steve put in this article has long been lionized by the left as a symbol of Ali’s defiance and black anger and all that leftist rationalization hooey.

    In reality, the photo actually depicts Ali screaming at Liston to “get up” because he realized on some level Liston shouldn’t have gone down from the relatively minor beating he’d taken thus far. Ali wanted to prove how great he was by seriously beating Liston. Liston, however, was throwing that fight, no matter what Ali screamed.

    I often wonder if Ali knew how many of his fights were fixed, because in retrospect its clear many of them were. He wasn’t a very smart man and was pretty self-absorbed, but he was also a hustler, so I don’t know whether he knew the fights were hustled or whether he was too dumb and arrogant to know his opponents were taking dives.

    I think it was the latter; a dumb man like Ali, who spent so much time on camera, would have eventually let slip that the fights were fixed if he thought that they were. Like his religious life, Ali’s professional life was very controlled by much smarter folks who let Ali think he was in charge and doing it all by himself.

    Ali’s wife controlled him in the same way, and somehow rehabilitated the yutz’s image into some kind of American icon and made some money off him. We forget how (rightfully) hated Ali was in the 1970s. When Stallone made Rocky, Apollo Creed was based on Ali, but Stallone massively changed much of the character to make Apollo a worthy, decent man, because Ali was so hated Stallone was afraid that the movie would fall into cheesy territory if the audience simply rooted for Rocky because they wanted the Ali-stand-in punished. Ironically, that probably began the ESPN/sporswriter rehab-hagiography of Ali, where Ali’s reputation was salvaged for later (white) generations.

    Fuck Ali. He was a draft dodging coward who hated the U.S. and whites on a very real level. He was a mouth, stupid punk who could beat people up well and had some very shady handlers. That is all.

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    • Replies: @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    He was The Greatest because he told us he was. Persuasion.
    In reality he was ordinary.
    Joe Bugner, a journeyman boxer fought him twice, went the distance and lost on points due to Clay's mafia connections.
    , @anonymouse
    How to explain his doggerel poetry then. His handlers didn't compose it for him to recite. On a different subject, I should add that I've been increasingly enjoying reading iSteve comments.
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  60. @Bill Jones
    "… From Friday evening to the end of Monday, 64 people will have been shot in this city of 2.7 million, six of them fatally. In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white."

    No mention of the race of the shootists, I see.

    They can’t say for certain what the race of the shooter is because they don’t have him in custody. Crime of this sort is almost entirely intra-racial, though.

    Only around a third of the murders in Chicago are considered solved, with an even lower conviction rate. The numbers in Chicago and other cities taken together are large enough to significantly influence the national statistic for “percent of murders committed by Blacks.”

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    For the vast majority of these shootings, the victims survived. Those victims, and usually other witnesses, as well, usually are able to describe their assailants. Police regularly announce those descriptions of suspects at large. Reporters and editors regularly redact the apparent race, color and ethnicity of the suspects, even though doing so puts the public at greater risk.
    , @Jefferson
    "They can’t say for certain what the race of the shooter is because they don’t have him in custody. Crime of this sort is almost entirely intra-racial, though."

    Blacks in Chicago are not being murdered in neighborhoods that racially resemble the cast of a John Hughes movie, so yeah no shit this sort of crime is intraracial.
    https://youtu.be/0HND8ywYcC0
    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    For fraction of the money Soros has wasted on BLM, he could have funded surveillance cameras for Chicago's most violent neighborhoods.

    I would like to know what percentage of Chicago homicides take place outside and could be captured on video.

    The gang murder trial I was a juror on that ended in an acquittal due to gross lack of evidence happened out in the middle of the street in front of a crowd on a hot summer's night.

    If you watch The First 48, a large number of the shootings involving blacks that are resolved had video evidence. I imagine the show's producers choose not to waste time attempting to track cases involving AAs that do not have either video, audio or social media evidence simply because the "no snitch" mentality makes the cases poor odds for resolution.

    Of course the last thing TWMNBN would want is more video that would end up on WSHH, SBPDL or Colin Flaherty's Youtube channel.

    But improving the CPD murder case conviction rate by just 10% could dramatically lower the carnage.
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  61. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    One thing I’m pretty certain of.

    All those white armchair warriors who so lionize Ali and Mike Tyson. They fawn over them, worship them, ride on their coat-tails, hang on to every word, say joky sweet things to them.

    Both Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali know full well that those self same whites would mutter to themselves ‘useless black b*stard’ if they were not talented sportsmen and just typical ghetto blacks.
    Now, you reflect on that, and how this must effect their psyches.

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    • Replies: @Unit472
    The 1960's Ali was, like the 1970's George Foreman, not very likable. Both, however, mellowed as they outgrew the arrogance of youth.
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  62. @Anonymous
    64 were shot over the weekend in Chicago, and only 6 out of the 64 were killed. That's a 9% kill rate. Presumably medical advances have made these shootings less fatal. If we account for this, would the homicide rates be higher?

    Handgun rounds are not exceptionally lethal. The fatality rate for handgun wounds seems to hover around 15%, so 9% fatality rate for that weekend is probably just noise.

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  63. @Boomstick
    They can't say for certain what the race of the shooter is because they don't have him in custody. Crime of this sort is almost entirely intra-racial, though.

    Only around a third of the murders in Chicago are considered solved, with an even lower conviction rate. The numbers in Chicago and other cities taken together are large enough to significantly influence the national statistic for "percent of murders committed by Blacks."

    For the vast majority of these shootings, the victims survived. Those victims, and usually other witnesses, as well, usually are able to describe their assailants. Police regularly announce those descriptions of suspects at large. Reporters and editors regularly redact the apparent race, color and ethnicity of the suspects, even though doing so puts the public at greater risk.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
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  64. Read More
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  65. In 1976 Vince McMahon was on commentary for the showdown between Muhammad Ali and the Italian Gorilla Monsoon.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    In 1976 Vince McMahon was on commentary for the showdown between Muhammad Ali and the Italian Gorilla Monsoon.
    https://youtu.be/RSJf8v-EFhk
     
    Gorilla Monsoon was so fat and flabby I thought he might have a heart attack when he twirled Muhammad Ali above his head. Great video, Thanks for posting. I also liked the way Gorilla Monsoon dealt with his wrestling opponent before Ali. The way the opponent prat falled himself out of the ring. High level stoopid fakery.
    , @SteveRogers42
    Good catch, Jeff! Comedy gold!
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  66. @Tiny Duck
    Apparently, the top priority when discussing race is to immediately exonerate the white people involved, if at all possible. We'll worry about the non-white perspective later, if there's time

    Typical Tiny Duck crap–no substance, just troll baiting. Fuck off to Huffington Post, douche.

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  67. @Steve Sailer
    Ouch.

    Real boxing doesn't look much like a Rocky movie, where everything is telegraphed so viewers can follow what's going on.

    Boxing is kind of like hockey where the action tended to be too quick to really follow on pre-HD television. I watched a lot of Olympic boxing on TV in 1976, but I had a hard time following who was winning from what I was seeing.

    Did they have instant replay set up for the closed circuit telecast?

    Former champ James J. "Cinderella Man" Braddock was in the front row and told a reporter: "I have a feeling that this guy (Ali) is a lot better than any of us gave him credit for," Braddock said. "It isn't the knockout punch that sticks in my mind as much as a punch he let go (earlier)....It was a right to Liston's jaw and it shook him to his shoetops. For all we know, it could have been the one that set up the knockout."

    Ouch.

    Real boxing doesn’t look much like a Rocky movie, where everything is telegraphed so viewers can follow what’s going on.

    Boxing is kind of like hockey where the action tended to be too quick to really follow on pre-HD television. I watched a lot of Olympic boxing on TV in 1976, but I had a hard time following who was winning from what I was seeing.

    Did they have instant replay set up for the closed circuit telecast?

    Former champ James J. “Cinderella Man” Braddock was in the front row and told a reporter: “I have a feeling that this guy (Ali) is a lot better than any of us gave him credit for,” Braddock said. “It isn’t the knockout punch that sticks in my mind as much as a punch he let go (earlier)….It was a right to Liston’s jaw and it shook him to his shoetops. For all we know, it could have been the one that set up the knockout.”

    I have no idea whether there was instant replay. I highly doubt it, given the phantom punch controversy. If they could see that footage, it would remove a lot of the contention. My post actually understates my belief as to whether Liston was legitimately knocked out. That blow is definitely believable as a KO punch, but who knows whether it did – the crumple started straight away though, and that sort of thing would be hard to time especially as he didn’t see it coming. OTOH, a fix is generally arranged with the predetermined loser of the fight, as I understand it. So there could be a situation where a fix was arranged and Liston was legitimately knocked out. The FBI seems to think a fix was in.

    The particular AS knockout I was thinking of was the Griffen knockout. There are lots of slow motion replays after it, but at full speed it is hard to see what actually happens, as you say. The punch is also at right angles to the face, hitting the jaw.

    I concur with what you say about boxing (and MMA) being a sport where sometimes it’s easy to underestimate a punch because it’s too fast to see properly.

    BTW is your email still the aol one?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I suspect that problem that sophisticated boxing observers had back in 1964-65 with underestimating Ali was that they tended to view him as the black Willie Pastrano, a light heavyweight who trained with Ali under Angelo Dundee.

    Pastrano, who was about a half dozen years older than Ali, had won the light heavyweight crown in 1963, with a style similar to what Ali developed under Dundee: hands low and a lot of fancy footwork. (Ali had kept his hands higher, which was more conventional, back when he won the light heavyweight gold at the 1960 Olympics.)

    Pastrano was a skilled fighter and a popular personality, but he had skinny arms and didn't have much knockout power. From Wikipedia:

    "As Willie lost weight, he realized two things. First, he loved boxing. Second, he hated getting hit. So, Pastrano developed a style of boxing in which he hardly got hit, and in return, tried not to hurt his opponent as well. ...

    "Managed by the legendary Angelo Dundee, Pastrano was a smooth, quick boxer with a great left hand. He was a stablemate of Cassius Clay and often sparred with the future champion early in Clay's career. His talent was dissipated by his aversion to training and a fondness for partying and carousing. His success was also limited by his lack of punching power, hence his record of only 14 knockout wins in his 84 fights. Nevertheless, he defeated most of the light heavyweight challengers of his generation. He also outpointed former light heavyweight champion Joey Maxim, and boxed a draw with the legendary Archie Moore. He retired with a record of 63 wins (14 by KO), 13 losses and 8 draws."

    So if you are an old time boxing writer in 1964, it was natural to think of Ali as the second coming of Willie Pastrano, a showboating light hitter. That's all very fine in the light heavyweight ranks, but Ali would be destroyed by the fearsome heavyweight champion of the world Sonny Liston.

    That turned out to be the wrong template, though.

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  68. @Boomstick
    They can't say for certain what the race of the shooter is because they don't have him in custody. Crime of this sort is almost entirely intra-racial, though.

    Only around a third of the murders in Chicago are considered solved, with an even lower conviction rate. The numbers in Chicago and other cities taken together are large enough to significantly influence the national statistic for "percent of murders committed by Blacks."

    “They can’t say for certain what the race of the shooter is because they don’t have him in custody. Crime of this sort is almost entirely intra-racial, though.”

    Blacks in Chicago are not being murdered in neighborhoods that racially resemble the cast of a John Hughes movie, so yeah no shit this sort of crime is intraracial.

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  69. @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    It’s his blog. It’s free to read. No registration necessary.

    A curious complaint.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    A curious complaint.
     
    What complaint? I didn't lay out any specific grievance.

    Now, the whole notion that a boxing match between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston has anything to do with "black on black violence" is pretty ridiculous. So I was just musing that maybe Sailer ought to refrain from such bullshit, but that is not exactly a complaint per se.
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  70. @Anonym

    Ouch.

    Real boxing doesn’t look much like a Rocky movie, where everything is telegraphed so viewers can follow what’s going on.

    Boxing is kind of like hockey where the action tended to be too quick to really follow on pre-HD television. I watched a lot of Olympic boxing on TV in 1976, but I had a hard time following who was winning from what I was seeing.

    Did they have instant replay set up for the closed circuit telecast?

    Former champ James J. “Cinderella Man” Braddock was in the front row and told a reporter: “I have a feeling that this guy (Ali) is a lot better than any of us gave him credit for,” Braddock said. “It isn’t the knockout punch that sticks in my mind as much as a punch he let go (earlier)….It was a right to Liston’s jaw and it shook him to his shoetops. For all we know, it could have been the one that set up the knockout.”
     
    I have no idea whether there was instant replay. I highly doubt it, given the phantom punch controversy. If they could see that footage, it would remove a lot of the contention. My post actually understates my belief as to whether Liston was legitimately knocked out. That blow is definitely believable as a KO punch, but who knows whether it did - the crumple started straight away though, and that sort of thing would be hard to time especially as he didn't see it coming. OTOH, a fix is generally arranged with the predetermined loser of the fight, as I understand it. So there could be a situation where a fix was arranged and Liston was legitimately knocked out. The FBI seems to think a fix was in.

    The particular AS knockout I was thinking of was the Griffen knockout. There are lots of slow motion replays after it, but at full speed it is hard to see what actually happens, as you say. The punch is also at right angles to the face, hitting the jaw.

    https://youtu.be/Rt1IIJMpcgI?t=42

    I concur with what you say about boxing (and MMA) being a sport where sometimes it's easy to underestimate a punch because it's too fast to see properly.

    BTW is your email still the aol one?

    I suspect that problem that sophisticated boxing observers had back in 1964-65 with underestimating Ali was that they tended to view him as the black Willie Pastrano, a light heavyweight who trained with Ali under Angelo Dundee.

    Pastrano, who was about a half dozen years older than Ali, had won the light heavyweight crown in 1963, with a style similar to what Ali developed under Dundee: hands low and a lot of fancy footwork. (Ali had kept his hands higher, which was more conventional, back when he won the light heavyweight gold at the 1960 Olympics.)

    Pastrano was a skilled fighter and a popular personality, but he had skinny arms and didn’t have much knockout power. From Wikipedia:

    “As Willie lost weight, he realized two things. First, he loved boxing. Second, he hated getting hit. So, Pastrano developed a style of boxing in which he hardly got hit, and in return, tried not to hurt his opponent as well. …

    “Managed by the legendary Angelo Dundee, Pastrano was a smooth, quick boxer with a great left hand. He was a stablemate of Cassius Clay and often sparred with the future champion early in Clay’s career. His talent was dissipated by his aversion to training and a fondness for partying and carousing. His success was also limited by his lack of punching power, hence his record of only 14 knockout wins in his 84 fights. Nevertheless, he defeated most of the light heavyweight challengers of his generation. He also outpointed former light heavyweight champion Joey Maxim, and boxed a draw with the legendary Archie Moore. He retired with a record of 63 wins (14 by KO), 13 losses and 8 draws.”

    So if you are an old time boxing writer in 1964, it was natural to think of Ali as the second coming of Willie Pastrano, a showboating light hitter. That’s all very fine in the light heavyweight ranks, but Ali would be destroyed by the fearsome heavyweight champion of the world Sonny Liston.

    That turned out to be the wrong template, though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czBnNDb3lXc

    Here's Willie Pastrano winning the light heavyweight belt in 1963 vs. Harold Johnson.
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  71. I would say the 2010´s version of this is the Balotelli flexing image. I have actually seen antifa groups use it in a explicit way. The difference is that in the case of Balotelli it actually way a victory over the white man.

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  72. @Steve Sailer
    I suspect that problem that sophisticated boxing observers had back in 1964-65 with underestimating Ali was that they tended to view him as the black Willie Pastrano, a light heavyweight who trained with Ali under Angelo Dundee.

    Pastrano, who was about a half dozen years older than Ali, had won the light heavyweight crown in 1963, with a style similar to what Ali developed under Dundee: hands low and a lot of fancy footwork. (Ali had kept his hands higher, which was more conventional, back when he won the light heavyweight gold at the 1960 Olympics.)

    Pastrano was a skilled fighter and a popular personality, but he had skinny arms and didn't have much knockout power. From Wikipedia:

    "As Willie lost weight, he realized two things. First, he loved boxing. Second, he hated getting hit. So, Pastrano developed a style of boxing in which he hardly got hit, and in return, tried not to hurt his opponent as well. ...

    "Managed by the legendary Angelo Dundee, Pastrano was a smooth, quick boxer with a great left hand. He was a stablemate of Cassius Clay and often sparred with the future champion early in Clay's career. His talent was dissipated by his aversion to training and a fondness for partying and carousing. His success was also limited by his lack of punching power, hence his record of only 14 knockout wins in his 84 fights. Nevertheless, he defeated most of the light heavyweight challengers of his generation. He also outpointed former light heavyweight champion Joey Maxim, and boxed a draw with the legendary Archie Moore. He retired with a record of 63 wins (14 by KO), 13 losses and 8 draws."

    So if you are an old time boxing writer in 1964, it was natural to think of Ali as the second coming of Willie Pastrano, a showboating light hitter. That's all very fine in the light heavyweight ranks, but Ali would be destroyed by the fearsome heavyweight champion of the world Sonny Liston.

    That turned out to be the wrong template, though.

    Here’s Willie Pastrano winning the light heavyweight belt in 1963 vs. Harold Johnson.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Pastrano is a Hall-of-Famer, but he wasn't Ali. The rumor is that Clay was whipping, world-champion Pastrano in sparring when he was a teen.
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  73. @whorefinder
    The famous picture Steve put in this article has long been lionized by the left as a symbol of Ali's defiance and black anger and all that leftist rationalization hooey.

    In reality, the photo actually depicts Ali screaming at Liston to "get up" because he realized on some level Liston shouldn't have gone down from the relatively minor beating he'd taken thus far. Ali wanted to prove how great he was by seriously beating Liston. Liston, however, was throwing that fight, no matter what Ali screamed.

    I often wonder if Ali knew how many of his fights were fixed, because in retrospect its clear many of them were. He wasn't a very smart man and was pretty self-absorbed, but he was also a hustler, so I don't know whether he knew the fights were hustled or whether he was too dumb and arrogant to know his opponents were taking dives.

    I think it was the latter; a dumb man like Ali, who spent so much time on camera, would have eventually let slip that the fights were fixed if he thought that they were. Like his religious life, Ali's professional life was very controlled by much smarter folks who let Ali think he was in charge and doing it all by himself.

    Ali's wife controlled him in the same way, and somehow rehabilitated the yutz's image into some kind of American icon and made some money off him. We forget how (rightfully) hated Ali was in the 1970s. When Stallone made Rocky, Apollo Creed was based on Ali, but Stallone massively changed much of the character to make Apollo a worthy, decent man, because Ali was so hated Stallone was afraid that the movie would fall into cheesy territory if the audience simply rooted for Rocky because they wanted the Ali-stand-in punished. Ironically, that probably began the ESPN/sporswriter rehab-hagiography of Ali, where Ali's reputation was salvaged for later (white) generations.

    Fuck Ali. He was a draft dodging coward who hated the U.S. and whites on a very real level. He was a mouth, stupid punk who could beat people up well and had some very shady handlers. That is all.

    He was The Greatest because he told us he was. Persuasion.
    In reality he was ordinary.
    Joe Bugner, a journeyman boxer fought him twice, went the distance and lost on points due to Clay’s mafia connections.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "He was The Greatest because he told us he was. Persuasion.
    In reality he was ordinary.
    Joe Bugner, a journeyman boxer fought him twice, went the distance and lost on points due to Clay’s mafia connections."

    A Black Muslim had the backing of Italian Catholic Cosa Nostra?
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  74. @Bill Jones
    "… From Friday evening to the end of Monday, 64 people will have been shot in this city of 2.7 million, six of them fatally. In a population made up of nearly equal numbers of whites, blacks and Hispanics, 52 of the shooting victims are black, 11 Hispanic and one white."

    No mention of the race of the shootists, I see.

    “No mention of the race of the shootists, I see.”

    No need … the only important fact was that the victims were shot, as in shot with a gun. The guns are the problem, got it?

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  75. @Steve Sailer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czBnNDb3lXc

    Here's Willie Pastrano winning the light heavyweight belt in 1963 vs. Harold Johnson.

    Pastrano is a Hall-of-Famer, but he wasn’t Ali. The rumor is that Clay was whipping, world-champion Pastrano in sparring when he was a teen.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Pastrano was given a boxing lesson by the undersized Welsh "heavyweight" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Erskine_(Welsh_boxer)

    Clay was not that impressive early as a pro, getting hit quite a lot (he got at least one decision despite taking a battering) but steadily improved over his career though remaining vulnerable to a left hook. Little old Archie Moore, who was in a personality clash with Clay when Clay refused to mop up the gym as Moore ordered, actually hurt Clay in their fight to decide who 'd face Sonny Liston. Liston's left was his main weapon, and like Henry Cooper, he was a converted southpaw, that is he fought with his dominant hand forward. Frazier was virtually a left hander too.

    A lot of the fighters Ali destroyed as champ before his legal problems over the draft were past their best. He was taller than everyone he fought with the exception of Ernie Terrell. That "whats my name fight" was not what people say, Terrell (who insisted Clay had deliberately thumbed him) had an eye swelled shut but as the commentators noted it seemed more likely in late rounds that Clay could not finish him off, or rather was not willing to take the chance on closing with a 6'6'' fighter.

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  76. @PiltdownMan
    It's his blog. It's free to read. No registration necessary.

    A curious complaint.

    A curious complaint.

    What complaint? I didn’t lay out any specific grievance.

    Now, the whole notion that a boxing match between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston has anything to do with “black on black violence” is pretty ridiculous. So I was just musing that maybe Sailer ought to refrain from such bullshit, but that is not exactly a complaint per se.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    Look, Mr. Revusky - this isn't all that hard. Even you could prob'ly get it, if you really tried.

    For at least the last 50 years, MSM outlets like Sports Illustrated have celebrated blacks behaving badly as some sort of noble rebellion against The Man...

    ...when, in fact, it's just blacks behaving badly (mostly against each other).
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  77. @landlubber
    There are many published works which contain everything on which Sailer does have something valuable to say. They are found in the journals section of your local bookstore.

    There are many published works which contain everything on which Sailer does have something valuable to say.

    Uhh, that’s a straw man. To be clear, I said that Sailer does not always have something of value to say. I did not say that he never has anything valuable to say. Those are two completely separate propositions.

    For example, the idea here that the boxing match between Ali and Liston has something to do with black on black crime is pretty self-evidently a brain fart.

    He recently wrote something saying that the O.J. Simpson case encapsulates the relationship between blacks and whites in America. Now, very many A-list black celebrities marry white women. As far as I can recall, none of them ever murder their wives. Except for O.J. probably. To take something that is an utterly unique case and say it encapsulates race relations in America is pretty bloody bizarre and, when I read it, I actually thought it was border-line demented.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If you google "nba player wives" or "nba player girlfriends", there are only a few white women. A-list black men generally aren't keen about white women.
    , @Desiderius
    Insults do not constitute an argument. They often indicate the lack thereof.
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  78. @Anonymous
    Incidentally, his daughter married a white man. I wonder if it was her way of rebelling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvOa72BUAi0

    her way of rebelling

    She comes across in this clip as very proud of her father, and his genetic contribution to her kids.

    A little breath of HBD.

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  79. In Madmen the old secretary, Miss Blankenship, expresses no interest in Clay-Liston and says “If I wanted to watch 2 negroes fight I’d throw a dollar out the window.” Which is a great line and an example of Weiner having it both ways, as the audience can laugh and say it’s laughing at how awful people used to be.

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  80. @Jonathan Revusky

    There are many published works which contain everything on which Sailer does have something valuable to say.
     
    Uhh, that's a straw man. To be clear, I said that Sailer does not always have something of value to say. I did not say that he never has anything valuable to say. Those are two completely separate propositions.

    For example, the idea here that the boxing match between Ali and Liston has something to do with black on black crime is pretty self-evidently a brain fart.

    He recently wrote something saying that the O.J. Simpson case encapsulates the relationship between blacks and whites in America. Now, very many A-list black celebrities marry white women. As far as I can recall, none of them ever murder their wives. Except for O.J. probably. To take something that is an utterly unique case and say it encapsulates race relations in America is pretty bloody bizarre and, when I read it, I actually thought it was border-line demented.

    If you google “nba player wives” or “nba player girlfriends”, there are only a few white women. A-list black men generally aren’t keen about white women.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    But A-list black women are keen on black jocks. I've known a couple of blacks superstars ex-wives: first rate ladies.
    , @Anonym
    Interesting. A lot of elite men (in any field) realize that they face a hard choice between procreating for pleasure or dynasty. If they are lucky they realize this before their first marriage. The best way of staving off regression to the mean is picking a wife with likely equal or better DNA for what makes you a success, or even complements a weakness.

    Thus I can see that a lot of black NBA wives might be black, tall and coordinated, with probably NBA or other pro athlete ancestors.

    I knew a good college level player (white). He was married to a tall successful intelligent female basketball player. Not unattractive but no bombshell. He would fool around with women whose defining characteristic was hotness. Although he was lucky enough to realize my point before his first marriage, perhaps unsurprisingly this did not stop him going on to have another marriage, though I lost contact with him before then. I thought of this example after I made my above point.

    To tie it back into the subject kind of, he would have made a good dog breeder.

    , @IA

    A-list black men generally aren’t keen about white women.
     
    I think it depends on their level of socialization. More civilized blacks are able to navigate white cultural norms (such as they are) and not totally embarrass or insult middle class white women.
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  81. @Bugg
    More subversive, because Ali never landed a punch, Liston simply took a dive. In fact it's completely unreal.

    George Chavalo said Elijah Muhammeds Nation of Islam told Liston to lose the fight or be killed!

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  82. @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    He was The Greatest because he told us he was. Persuasion.
    In reality he was ordinary.
    Joe Bugner, a journeyman boxer fought him twice, went the distance and lost on points due to Clay's mafia connections.

    “He was The Greatest because he told us he was. Persuasion.
    In reality he was ordinary.
    Joe Bugner, a journeyman boxer fought him twice, went the distance and lost on points due to Clay’s mafia connections.”

    A Black Muslim had the backing of Italian Catholic Cosa Nostra?

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    As the expression goes, business is business.
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  83. @Jonathan Revusky

    There are many published works which contain everything on which Sailer does have something valuable to say.
     
    Uhh, that's a straw man. To be clear, I said that Sailer does not always have something of value to say. I did not say that he never has anything valuable to say. Those are two completely separate propositions.

    For example, the idea here that the boxing match between Ali and Liston has something to do with black on black crime is pretty self-evidently a brain fart.

    He recently wrote something saying that the O.J. Simpson case encapsulates the relationship between blacks and whites in America. Now, very many A-list black celebrities marry white women. As far as I can recall, none of them ever murder their wives. Except for O.J. probably. To take something that is an utterly unique case and say it encapsulates race relations in America is pretty bloody bizarre and, when I read it, I actually thought it was border-line demented.

    Insults do not constitute an argument. They often indicate the lack thereof.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Insults do not constitute an argument.
     
    All I said was that what he was saying didn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense to claim that the Ali-Liston boxing match has anything to do with the problem of black on black crime. It doesn't make any sense to say that O.J. killing his ex-wife "encapsulates" race relations in America.
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  84. @Anonymous
    One thing I'm pretty certain of.

    All those white armchair warriors who so lionize Ali and Mike Tyson. They fawn over them, worship them, ride on their coat-tails, hang on to every word, say joky sweet things to them.

    Both Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali know full well that those self same whites would mutter to themselves 'useless black b*stard' if they were not talented sportsmen and just typical ghetto blacks.
    Now, you reflect on that, and how this must effect their psyches.

    The 1960′s Ali was, like the 1970′s George Foreman, not very likable. Both, however, mellowed as they outgrew the arrogance of youth.

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    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    The way Foreman giddily danced with two American flags after winning gold made him sympathetic to whites throughout his career though.
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  85. @Anonymous
    If you google "nba player wives" or "nba player girlfriends", there are only a few white women. A-list black men generally aren't keen about white women.

    But A-list black women are keen on black jocks. I’ve known a couple of blacks superstars ex-wives: first rate ladies.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder

    ladies
     
    I do not think that word means what you think it means.
    , @Arclight
    Yes, this lines up with my experience in the few cases in which I am friends or acquaintances with former NBA players. However, in my very limited experience, both men are still married to these women, and aside from the women being impressive people, the players are as well. They were smart to make use of their physical skills to make a lot of money at a young age, but they are intelligent guys regardless, so it makes sense that they gravitated to smart (and attractive) women as their spouses.
    , @Gringo
    But A-list black women are keen on black jocks. I’ve known a couple of blacks superstars ex-wives: first rate ladies.

    I worked under a principal whose ex was later inducted into his sport's Hall of Fame. I will spare the details, but suffice it to say that she was neither a likeable person nor a competent administrator. The school district agreed, as it did not renew her contract.
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  86. How the Supreme Court kept Muhammad Ali out of jail:

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/2016/06/how-supreme-court-decided-draft-evasion.html

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  87. @L7's
    I used to train under a wonderful old boxing coach named Tommy Rawson. He was on the boxing commission of new England at the time of the second liston fight.he had to drive up to Maine from boston to address reports that liston wasn't training.he told liston if he didn't start at least going through the motions he was gonna cancel the fight and liston complied . Something does seem odd about the whole event...anyone know how a title fight ended up in little old Maine?

    “Something does seem odd about the whole event…anyone know how a title fight ended up in little old Maine?”

    Wikipedia has a pretty detailed account of the whole series of controversies related to the fight-including why it wound up taking place in little Lewiston, Maine:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston#Lewiston.2C_Maine

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    • Replies: @Bugg
    Educated guess that Boston and East Coast crime families with an interest in fixing a fight had an interest in it being held in some out of the way place yet still under their control. As others have noted, no small irony that instead of taunting Liston, many have said Ali is in the photo yelling at him to get up to make the fix look real. No doubt he was a talented boxer, but he was really good at selling himself. Frazier and Foreman (at least in his first incarnation) were never in his class as salesmen. And ducking fights like a 2nd Foreman fight than everyone knew he would have lost badly if Foreman actually trained. Further he was expert at taking punishment, and it led to his Parkinson's Syndrome(which is not the same thing as Parkinson's Disease).

    Today we are inundated with the outpouring of sportswriters waxing poetic about a man who hated them and this country, and refused to serve it so he could professionally punch others in the face. Further I have nothing but contempt for Islam. Yet on the one occasion in his life when he could have shown moral courage to protect his friend Malcolm X, Ali did nothing to stand up for him nor stop his murder at the hands on Elijah Mohammed and his thugs. That is moral cowardice.
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  88. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Liston did take a punch in their second fight and used that to go down and act like he was knocked out. He had taken a painful beating the first time around and probably didn’t want to go through that again, especially since he threw what he could the last time and it wasn’t enough. He knew he was going to lose so he just took the payday and saved himself the pain. Liston looked formidable but really wasn’t bigger than Clay who was taller and weights were in the same ballpark. Clay was the beneficiary of some unfair decisions in his career. Clay’s appeal to blacks was that they love anyone who pokes his finger into the white man’s eye.

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  89. @Jefferson
    "He was The Greatest because he told us he was. Persuasion.
    In reality he was ordinary.
    Joe Bugner, a journeyman boxer fought him twice, went the distance and lost on points due to Clay’s mafia connections."

    A Black Muslim had the backing of Italian Catholic Cosa Nostra?

    As the expression goes, business is business.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    'As the expression goes, business is business."

    Instead of leave the gun & take the cannoli, it's leave the gun and take the quran.
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  90. @Steve Sailer
    But A-list black women are keen on black jocks. I've known a couple of blacks superstars ex-wives: first rate ladies.

    ladies

    I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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    • Agree: Kylie
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  91. @White Guy In Japan
    Holding the pistol sideways may be a factor.

    I remember that even an old episode of CSI (the original) mocked the rap-video sideways gun shooter and used science to back it up. The crime labbers figured out that the scar on the wannabe-ganster-rapper’s cheek came from a shell casing that flew up and burned his cheek—because the idiot had fired the gun sideways, causing the casing to hit him in the face as opposed to being harmlessly released to the side.

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  92. @Jonathan Revusky

    A curious complaint.
     
    What complaint? I didn't lay out any specific grievance.

    Now, the whole notion that a boxing match between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston has anything to do with "black on black violence" is pretty ridiculous. So I was just musing that maybe Sailer ought to refrain from such bullshit, but that is not exactly a complaint per se.

    Look, Mr. Revusky – this isn’t all that hard. Even you could prob’ly get it, if you really tried.

    For at least the last 50 years, MSM outlets like Sports Illustrated have celebrated blacks behaving badly as some sort of noble rebellion against The Man…

    …when, in fact, it’s just blacks behaving badly (mostly against each other).

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    …when, in fact, it’s just blacks behaving badly (mostly against each other).
     
    And Muhammad Ali knocking out Sonny Liston was an example of that?

    You see, as I said, the whole thing just doesn't make any sense. But, never mind, that just doesn't seem to bother people here.
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  93. @the cruncher
    OT: a nice quote by Tila Tequila, former porn star and now twitter nazi, on 'Fash the Nation 42' (https://radio.therightstuff.biz/2016/06/04/fash-the-nation-week-42/), ~89:30. She came back to Houston after it'd been diversified. She says the intent of section 8 is to put blacks on their best behavior, get them out of their bad environments, but that "that's not how it works, they dominate the neighborhood and chase out the nice people" (paraphrase). Promises good times for Obama's Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing.

    Some economists studied the Houston Section 8 lottery; the applicants who won the lottery and received the housing voucher committed more crimes, mostly assaults. Men who won the lottery were twice as likely to get arrested than men who applied for Section 8 but lost. Basically, since spending the voucher is fungible with other spending, you can get drunk (or high, perhaps) more often if you win than if you don’t, and consequently get in more fights. The voucher had no effect on women’s propensity to commit crimes.

    https://economics.nd.edu/assets/153486/carr_jillian_jmp.pdf

    This is consistent with other findings that transfers fungible with cash tend to increase crime in the short term (aside from any increases in the long term due to “welfare dependency,” change in culture, etc.)

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    • Replies: @Lot
    There is also something strange about giving away welfare benefits by lottery.

    I never understood why the GOP did not just shut down HUD by blocking its spending bill. That is the one cabinet-level government agency that does not do anything useful for core GOP interest groups. Sure there are section 8 landlords, but they are usually small time and not heavily Republican.

    Instead they shut down national parks, social security offices, and other popular parts of the federal government during their various government shutdown fights with Obama.

    There are all sorts of things that could be attached to a HUD funding bill that Obama would have to accept at pain of a HUD shutdown: end to sanctuary cities, defunding of anti-suburb HUD lawyers who demand the building of "affording housing," ending affirmative action within the department and its contractors, conversion of underused public housing to detain asylum claimers rather than release them (never to return for their hearing).
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  94. @Jefferson
    In 1976 Vince McMahon was on commentary for the showdown between Muhammad Ali and the Italian Gorilla Monsoon.
    https://youtu.be/RSJf8v-EFhk

    In 1976 Vince McMahon was on commentary for the showdown between Muhammad Ali and the Italian Gorilla Monsoon.
    https://youtu.be/RSJf8v-EFhk

    Gorilla Monsoon was so fat and flabby I thought he might have a heart attack when he twirled Muhammad Ali above his head. Great video, Thanks for posting. I also liked the way Gorilla Monsoon dealt with his wrestling opponent before Ali. The way the opponent prat falled himself out of the ring. High level stoopid fakery.

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  95. @whorefinder
    The famous picture Steve put in this article has long been lionized by the left as a symbol of Ali's defiance and black anger and all that leftist rationalization hooey.

    In reality, the photo actually depicts Ali screaming at Liston to "get up" because he realized on some level Liston shouldn't have gone down from the relatively minor beating he'd taken thus far. Ali wanted to prove how great he was by seriously beating Liston. Liston, however, was throwing that fight, no matter what Ali screamed.

    I often wonder if Ali knew how many of his fights were fixed, because in retrospect its clear many of them were. He wasn't a very smart man and was pretty self-absorbed, but he was also a hustler, so I don't know whether he knew the fights were hustled or whether he was too dumb and arrogant to know his opponents were taking dives.

    I think it was the latter; a dumb man like Ali, who spent so much time on camera, would have eventually let slip that the fights were fixed if he thought that they were. Like his religious life, Ali's professional life was very controlled by much smarter folks who let Ali think he was in charge and doing it all by himself.

    Ali's wife controlled him in the same way, and somehow rehabilitated the yutz's image into some kind of American icon and made some money off him. We forget how (rightfully) hated Ali was in the 1970s. When Stallone made Rocky, Apollo Creed was based on Ali, but Stallone massively changed much of the character to make Apollo a worthy, decent man, because Ali was so hated Stallone was afraid that the movie would fall into cheesy territory if the audience simply rooted for Rocky because they wanted the Ali-stand-in punished. Ironically, that probably began the ESPN/sporswriter rehab-hagiography of Ali, where Ali's reputation was salvaged for later (white) generations.

    Fuck Ali. He was a draft dodging coward who hated the U.S. and whites on a very real level. He was a mouth, stupid punk who could beat people up well and had some very shady handlers. That is all.

    How to explain his doggerel poetry then. His handlers didn’t compose it for him to recite. On a different subject, I should add that I’ve been increasingly enjoying reading iSteve comments.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    Well, you explained it all ready: it was doggerel, verbal diarrhea, which would have been chided as such had he been white. His black privilege, however, made the lefties pretend what he said was worth consideration.

    One adaptation of many lower IQ-but-energetic people is to cobble together various phrases--mostly cliched ones--to serve as all-purpose responses when facing a smarter person talking to them. Either exerting dominance to cover up their lack of intelligence--"shut up, nerd/white man/fool"---or else to overload the opponent with a barrage of nonsense, off the cuff, to confuse them. Rap, for example, became popular because of its relation to this phenomenon.
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  96. I was curious about the one white guy shot. Was he shot by a non-white, which probably would have made 100% of the shooters black or Hispanic?

    I found this:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-man-held-without-bail-in-memorial-day-weekend-slaying-20160604-story.html

    Nope, his shooter was a pure European – one Mulosmani Florin.

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    • Replies: @biz

    Nope, his shooter was a pure European
     
    At first this does look like some unambiguous white-on-white crime, with absolutely no racial or ethnic angle, but no so fast...

    "Florin, who was born in Albania, was arrested about 11:15 a.m. June 2 at a Rolling Meadows motel, according to a police report. He was positively identified as the person who entered the store with the shooter by witnesses inside the store and the surviving victim, and as the person who began an altercation with Cionzynski’s friend and punched Cionzynski, Sedelmaier said. The incident was also captured on surveillance video."

    Albania is around 70% Muslim, so there could be a jihad / Muslim honor connection here for all we know. One thing we can count on is that if there is, it will not be reported.
    , @Hhsiii
    Florin wasn't the shooter. His unnamed friend was.
    , @reiner Tor
    Albanians are phenotypically quite white, this guy is among the least European-looking Albanians. They often have blue or grey eyes and light brown hair (blondism is only frequent among their women due to hair dye), and their complexions are often lighter than that of Greeks or other Balkan peoples. I guess they must be genetically quite close to other Europeans as well. But they are totally undomesticated, are probably the most clannish and among the most violent Europeans. If having lived under Ottoman rule or being (nominally, their women have quite deep necklines) Muslim plays any role in this is anybody's guess.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    pure European – one Mulosmani Florin

     

    LOL.


    ... Florin, who was born in Albania...

     

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  97. @Anonymous
    Incidentally, his daughter married a white man. I wonder if it was her way of rebelling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvOa72BUAi0

    He married a smart black woman**

    And their sons, they born cognitively smart*

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  98. Looks southern European, the neck tattoo is what? Albanian mafia?

    Read down, and yup! Albanian!

    Although from the article, it seems he wasn’t the trigger-puller. Could be wrong, it’s worded strangely.

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  99. @Steve Sailer
    But A-list black women are keen on black jocks. I've known a couple of blacks superstars ex-wives: first rate ladies.

    Yes, this lines up with my experience in the few cases in which I am friends or acquaintances with former NBA players. However, in my very limited experience, both men are still married to these women, and aside from the women being impressive people, the players are as well. They were smart to make use of their physical skills to make a lot of money at a young age, but they are intelligent guys regardless, so it makes sense that they gravitated to smart (and attractive) women as their spouses.

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  100. biz says:
    @Jack D
    I was curious about the one white guy shot. Was he shot by a non-white, which probably would have made 100% of the shooters black or Hispanic?

    I found this:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-man-held-without-bail-in-memorial-day-weekend-slaying-20160604-story.html

    Nope, his shooter was a pure European - one Mulosmani Florin.

    Nope, his shooter was a pure European

    At first this does look like some unambiguous white-on-white crime, with absolutely no racial or ethnic angle, but no so fast…

    “Florin, who was born in Albania, was arrested about 11:15 a.m. June 2 at a Rolling Meadows motel, according to a police report. He was positively identified as the person who entered the store with the shooter by witnesses inside the store and the surviving victim, and as the person who began an altercation with Cionzynski’s friend and punched Cionzynski, Sedelmaier said. The incident was also captured on surveillance video.”

    Albania is around 70% Muslim, so there could be a jihad / Muslim honor connection here for all we know. One thing we can count on is that if there is, it will not be reported.

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  101. @Jack D
    I was curious about the one white guy shot. Was he shot by a non-white, which probably would have made 100% of the shooters black or Hispanic?

    I found this:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-man-held-without-bail-in-memorial-day-weekend-slaying-20160604-story.html

    Nope, his shooter was a pure European - one Mulosmani Florin.

    Florin wasn’t the shooter. His unnamed friend was.

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  102. @prosa123
    Six dead out of 64 shot? What were they using, BB guns?

    Check out http://www.heyjackass.com.

    It is the “must see” website for all stats on Chicago shootings.

    They have a nice chart of shot placement for each shooting.

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    • Replies: @V Vega
    Why is it that black folks tend to be able to aim a basketball at least adequately, but when it comes to small arms fire accuracy, they seem to trail whites by a significant margin? Related to their cultural experience, they are outrageously underrepresented in the Olympics in target shooting events.

    http://www.usashooting.org

    Any good ideas as to why this is? It seems obvious that the inherent branding opportunities is one of the last avenues of entrepreneurship that has been left untouched by aspiring black folks. Imagine a black Olympic Gold Medal Winner presenting his/her own line of handguns!
    Hell, imagine even Michael Jordan or Ice Cube and his NWA submitting a signature handgun line. Imagine the thrill of busting a cap into some scurrilous Hoodrat who owes you money with an Easy E Snubnose! Takin' care of BIDNESS!!
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  103. Boxing promoters’ putting fights on pay-per-view or premium channels is like a malnourished person cutting off and eating pieces of his own flesh. It may provide a bit of short-term revenue/nutrition, but in the long run it’s a pretty bad strategy. Having fights visible to the huge potential audiences of free network TV is the only way to make boxing a major sport once again.

    In fairness, boxing is a tough sell on advertiser-supported network TV because there aren’t many breaks and fights are of unpredictable length, but there certainly are ways around that. Soccer games get enormous audiences on advertiser-supported TV networks in Europe and South America even though there are very few breaks in the action.

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  104. @Unit472
    The 1960's Ali was, like the 1970's George Foreman, not very likable. Both, however, mellowed as they outgrew the arrogance of youth.

    The way Foreman giddily danced with two American flags after winning gold made him sympathetic to whites throughout his career though.

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  105. @Jack D
    I was curious about the one white guy shot. Was he shot by a non-white, which probably would have made 100% of the shooters black or Hispanic?

    I found this:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-man-held-without-bail-in-memorial-day-weekend-slaying-20160604-story.html

    Nope, his shooter was a pure European - one Mulosmani Florin.

    Albanians are phenotypically quite white, this guy is among the least European-looking Albanians. They often have blue or grey eyes and light brown hair (blondism is only frequent among their women due to hair dye), and their complexions are often lighter than that of Greeks or other Balkan peoples. I guess they must be genetically quite close to other Europeans as well. But they are totally undomesticated, are probably the most clannish and among the most violent Europeans. If having lived under Ottoman rule or being (nominally, their women have quite deep necklines) Muslim plays any role in this is anybody’s guess.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    As I have often said, Europeanness is not automatically next to Godliness - there are some pretty low rent whites around. Florian seems to have plugged into American white trash culture - neck tattoo, living in a motel, etc. I assume he is also a drug addict.

    Florian was perhaps not the sharpest knife in the criminal drawer. Attempts robbery inside a gas station where there are sure to be lots of security cameras. Kills someone but leaves lots of surviving witnesses. Sports large neck tattoo of Albanian eagle that makes him easily identifiable unless they can find 5 other guys with Albanian eagle neck tattoos for the lineup.

    Illinois no longer has the death penalty but it does have life sentences without parole so Florian is probably never getting out. Under the felony murder doctrine he is just as guilty of murder as the shooter.

    It's true we still don't know the shooter's race.
    , @Jefferson
    "Albanians are phenotypically quite white, this guy is among the least European-looking Albanians. They often have blue or grey eyes"

    Actually most Albanians do not have blue eyes. Only 11 percent of Albanian have blue eyes. When you also include other different shades of light eyes, only 20 percent of Albanians have non brown eyes.
    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4581457/1/

    The late John Belushi was Albanian and he had brown eyes. Albanian pop singer Rita Ora has brown eyes. Hollywood casted a brown eyed Albanian actress named Masiela Lusha to play George Lopez's Mexican daughter on his show.

    On average Albanians are closer to Mediterraneans in physical features than they are to Nordic people.

    If Albania was a majority blue eyed country, it would have made the goodest countries list that Steve Sailer posted, but it didn't.

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  106. Now that he is dead, lets move fast and get him on the $20 bill. He was a great fighter, a charming guy, and was pretty handsome yet in a decidedly Afro-American direction.

    If we have to have a an african on our money, lets not make it an affirmative action abolitionist- lets put an American on the $20 who was actually the greatest with no asterisks.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Sounds okay to me.
    , @Steve Sailer
    You can put a descendant of a slave on the 20 replacing a slaveowner, but also one, Ali, whom the slaveowner, Jackson, would have admired.
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  107. @Gross Terry
    Now that he is dead, lets move fast and get him on the $20 bill. He was a great fighter, a charming guy, and was pretty handsome yet in a decidedly Afro-American direction.


    If we have to have a an african on our money, lets not make it an affirmative action abolitionist- lets put an American on the $20 who was actually the greatest with no asterisks.

    Sounds okay to me.

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  108. @Gross Terry
    Now that he is dead, lets move fast and get him on the $20 bill. He was a great fighter, a charming guy, and was pretty handsome yet in a decidedly Afro-American direction.


    If we have to have a an african on our money, lets not make it an affirmative action abolitionist- lets put an American on the $20 who was actually the greatest with no asterisks.

    You can put a descendant of a slave on the 20 replacing a slaveowner, but also one, Ali, whom the slaveowner, Jackson, would have admired.

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  109. @D. K.
    http://www.amren.com/news/2008/06/the_negro_crime/

    That Amren reprint of the 1958 article from Time puts the lie to the claim of several commenters here that the black population of San Francisco fell sharply in recent years. According to Time, in 1958 SF was 7% black. But according to the census, it was 7.8% in 2000 and 6.1 in 2010.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Look at 1970 Census for San Francisco.
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  110. @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    Jonathan, My local newspaper publishes daily opinion columns by syndicated writers who are almost 100% liberal in their doctrine. So see how this works, if you want to read a different bent to a story, you visit a blog, like Steve’s, like you just did. So what your complaint?

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  111. @Desiderius
    Insults do not constitute an argument. They often indicate the lack thereof.

    Insults do not constitute an argument.

    All I said was that what he was saying didn’t make any sense. It doesn’t make any sense to claim that the Ali-Liston boxing match has anything to do with the problem of black on black crime. It doesn’t make any sense to say that O.J. killing his ex-wife “encapsulates” race relations in America.

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  112. @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

    GOPe.

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  113. Bugg says:
    @fnn
    "Something does seem odd about the whole event…anyone know how a title fight ended up in little old Maine?"

    Wikipedia has a pretty detailed account of the whole series of controversies related to the fight-including why it wound up taking place in little Lewiston, Maine:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston#Lewiston.2C_Maine

    Educated guess that Boston and East Coast crime families with an interest in fixing a fight had an interest in it being held in some out of the way place yet still under their control. As others have noted, no small irony that instead of taunting Liston, many have said Ali is in the photo yelling at him to get up to make the fix look real. No doubt he was a talented boxer, but he was really good at selling himself. Frazier and Foreman (at least in his first incarnation) were never in his class as salesmen. And ducking fights like a 2nd Foreman fight than everyone knew he would have lost badly if Foreman actually trained. Further he was expert at taking punishment, and it led to his Parkinson’s Syndrome(which is not the same thing as Parkinson’s Disease).

    Today we are inundated with the outpouring of sportswriters waxing poetic about a man who hated them and this country, and refused to serve it so he could professionally punch others in the face. Further I have nothing but contempt for Islam. Yet on the one occasion in his life when he could have shown moral courage to protect his friend Malcolm X, Ali did nothing to stand up for him nor stop his murder at the hands on Elijah Mohammed and his thugs. That is moral cowardice.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    After the assassination of Malcom X, Ali probably went with Elijah Muhammad for his own physical safety as much as anything.
    , @Former Darfur
    I have no specific information on the Liston-Ali fight (either of them) beyond what's on Wikipedia, but I do know that there were enormous amounts of illegal betting on major boxing matches in those days. Blacks mostly lack the kind of organizational skills to make stuff like this work, which is why the Italians controlled organized crime until RICO and the general cultural disintegration of "the old ways".

    And the one thing most all the commenters on Liston seem agreed on is that he was both unbelievably tough and capable of punching harder than most of his contemporaries.
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  114. @jimmyriddle
    Liston threw the fight.

    No, the film shows Liston’s back and shoulder muscles convulsed on the knockout, he had spent the night drinking heavily as was his habit. Probably a junky too.

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  115. @Bugg
    More subversive, because Ali never landed a punch, Liston simply took a dive. In fact it's completely unreal.

    Both Liston fights have been subject to conspiracy theory. Liston was known to be consorting with “The Boys” (in the person of Frankie Carbo) and was something of a black Luca Brazzi. One theory holds that in both fights he was under orders to fold his tent so to speak.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    And why would the mob want Liston to lose? Ali was under the control of the Black Muslims. The Mob had no hook into him.
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  116. @Anonymous
    64 were shot over the weekend in Chicago, and only 6 out of the 64 were killed. That's a 9% kill rate. Presumably medical advances have made these shootings less fatal. If we account for this, would the homicide rates be higher?

    Anonymous, 64 shot, is not even the number of shootings, just the number of victims. These are war zone numbers. The U of Chicago published a study a few years back that stated that the average costs of treating a gunshot victim is $84,000, of course less for some and extremely higher for others. Many gunshot wounds are life changing, resulting in full or partial paralysis, amputation or digestive system resectioning. In actually combat there are more wounds caused by shrapnel than bullets but the thugs aren’t using mortars or IEDs, yet.

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  117. @idle hands
    Try reading the post again, you bird-brained mush-mouth 50s-kitsch bath toy. The 3rd graf ID's the pasty prog "other white meat" media who facilitate the bogus BoBo-bait, i.e. boundless brutality of bro-tastic black-on-black battles -- to wit, "Going Bonkers In Yonkers," as the misery of minorities is mined maliciously, all in the name of munificence, for beaucoup bucks and Burberry/Benetton backslapping on your slime-time Oscars onani-cast. Black Trek TNG greets a broken-down Bartertown reality of PAIN, while you circle the DRAIN (actually, I'm starting to sound like Clubber LANG...)

    IQ, it is good to vent and to vent in an amusing way. Kudos.

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  118. @landlubber
    Sailer, you should change your first name to Specious.

    A drive-by comment.

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  119. JimB says:
    @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    Part of Steve’s job is to debunk the Narrative in real time. Even on the Drudge Report you will see a rush to deify this pugilistic cretin.

    Muhammed Ali was a saint of the antiwar and civil rights movement for having refused to register for the draft, essentially saying he owed the US nothing as a black man. And he is held up as a model of black grit and clean living, even as he became a dupe of the black muslim church who exploited him to make money and forced him to fight long after symptoms of permanent brain injury were apparent. With friends like the Black Muslims, who needs enemies? In the end, a group of sports loving white businessmen charitably worked to create endorsement deals to put him financially back in shape for his retirement.

    In the end, Ali was a lousy model for black youth, teaching them full throated high self regard based on nothing, the culture of dissing, and the imperative of settling meaningless arguments over who’s the best with violence.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @D. K.
    Cassius Clay, in fact, did register for the draft, in 1960. It was when he (since "rechristened" as Muhammad Ali) was called upon to be inducted, on April 28, 1967, that he refused to step forward and be sworn into military service.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali#Vietnam_War_and_resistance_to_the_draft

    Ali caught a major break, when the Supreme Court reversed his conviction on procedural grounds, without remanding his case to be reconsidered. It is clear to me, from his own statements, that he was not really a pacifist who truly believed that his own religion forbade him to fight, in any and all circumstances; he merely did not believe in his fighting for the United States-- and especially not against the (non-white) Vietnamese-- rather than in the name of Allah and Islam, against the infidels.

    (My own priestly brother became a conscientious objector, after graduating from Notre Dame. He entered the seminary, at the Pontifical North American College, in Rome, after sitting out a year, while his appeal was settled. He wound up, for several years, in the middle of El Salvador's infamous civil war.)
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  120. The race is now on among local communities and school districts to start naming streets and public schools after Muhammad Ali. Oh, and when will Ali’s birthday (Jan. 17th; two days after MLK’s) be designated a national holiday?

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  121. @Steve Sailer
    They have good doctors in Chicago. Several saved my life from cancer in 1997.

    Having several of the nation’s top teaching hospitals just off Lake Shore Drive guarantees a generous supply of good doctors for Chicagoans.

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    • Replies: @Lurker
    A generous supply of gunshot riddled bodies is good practice for aspiring surgeons.
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  122. Kids of black/white parents who have a white father tend to look more white.
    It could explain why white brazilians look so strange, they were all descendants of white fathers.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Kids of black/white parents who have a white father tend to look more white.
    It could explain why white brazilians look so strange, they were all descendants of white fathers."

    Are you saying White Brazilians have Black mothers? That is news to Gisele Bundchen and blond haired and blue eyed Tiago Splitter from The San Antonio Spurs for example, that their mothers are Black.
    http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2010/news/features/fran_blinebury/07/22/spurs/tiago.jpg

    Negro maternal genes must be extremely weak in Brazil when it comes to phenotype.
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  123. Sean says:
    @Truth
    Pastrano is a Hall-of-Famer, but he wasn't Ali. The rumor is that Clay was whipping, world-champion Pastrano in sparring when he was a teen.

    Pastrano was given a boxing lesson by the undersized Welsh “heavyweight” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Erskine_(Welsh_boxer)

    Clay was not that impressive early as a pro, getting hit quite a lot (he got at least one decision despite taking a battering) but steadily improved over his career though remaining vulnerable to a left hook. Little old Archie Moore, who was in a personality clash with Clay when Clay refused to mop up the gym as Moore ordered, actually hurt Clay in their fight to decide who ‘d face Sonny Liston. Liston’s left was his main weapon, and like Henry Cooper, he was a converted southpaw, that is he fought with his dominant hand forward. Frazier was virtually a left hander too.

    A lot of the fighters Ali destroyed as champ before his legal problems over the draft were past their best. He was taller than everyone he fought with the exception of Ernie Terrell. That “whats my name fight” was not what people say, Terrell (who insisted Clay had deliberately thumbed him) had an eye swelled shut but as the commentators noted it seemed more likely in late rounds that Clay could not finish him off, or rather was not willing to take the chance on closing with a 6’6” fighter.

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  124. @Steve Sailer
    But A-list black women are keen on black jocks. I've known a couple of blacks superstars ex-wives: first rate ladies.

    But A-list black women are keen on black jocks. I’ve known a couple of blacks superstars ex-wives: first rate ladies.

    I worked under a principal whose ex was later inducted into his sport’s Hall of Fame. I will spare the details, but suffice it to say that she was neither a likeable person nor a competent administrator. The school district agreed, as it did not renew her contract.

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  125. Sean says:
    @D. K.
    No evil White man to blame for the Clay/Ali - Liston II controversy:

    ***

    In 1965, he refereed the controversial world heavyweight championship bout between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston. Walcott lost the count as Ali circled around a floored Liston and Walcott tried to get him back to a neutral corner. Then Walcott looked outside the ring (presumably to the ringside count keeper) as Ali and Liston went at each other before Walcott instructed them to keep on fighting, then Walcott approached the fighters and abruptly stopped the fight. Walcott would never be appointed as a referee after this bout.

    ***

    [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Joe_Walcott ]

    'Jersey Joe' Walcott, coincidentally, died, at age 80, on the 30th anniversary of Clay-Liston I.

    Ali is standing over Liston in the photo above (taken by Frank Sinatra I believe). Ali ran around the ring and stood right over Liston. but what the rules mandate is going to a neutral corner, and Wallcott was quite correct in not counting Liston out.

    Wallcott’s mistake was in allowing, himself to be influenced by Nat Fleischer the venerable owner of Ring magazine who climbed through the ropes after the contest had been restarted and said Liston was down for more than 10 seconds so it was over. This was actually beside the point.

    Against Oscar Bonavena, Ali not only stood over his downed opponent instead of going to a neutral corner, he took an advantage by finishing him off as soon as he had got up. Ali was given an awful lot of leeway. Liston on the other hand was the champion that nobody, black or white, wanted, JFK and the NAACP tried to keep Patterson from fighting Liston.

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  126. @reiner Tor
    Albanians are phenotypically quite white, this guy is among the least European-looking Albanians. They often have blue or grey eyes and light brown hair (blondism is only frequent among their women due to hair dye), and their complexions are often lighter than that of Greeks or other Balkan peoples. I guess they must be genetically quite close to other Europeans as well. But they are totally undomesticated, are probably the most clannish and among the most violent Europeans. If having lived under Ottoman rule or being (nominally, their women have quite deep necklines) Muslim plays any role in this is anybody's guess.

    As I have often said, Europeanness is not automatically next to Godliness – there are some pretty low rent whites around. Florian seems to have plugged into American white trash culture – neck tattoo, living in a motel, etc. I assume he is also a drug addict.

    Florian was perhaps not the sharpest knife in the criminal drawer. Attempts robbery inside a gas station where there are sure to be lots of security cameras. Kills someone but leaves lots of surviving witnesses. Sports large neck tattoo of Albanian eagle that makes him easily identifiable unless they can find 5 other guys with Albanian eagle neck tattoos for the lineup.

    Illinois no longer has the death penalty but it does have life sentences without parole so Florian is probably never getting out. Under the felony murder doctrine he is just as guilty of murder as the shooter.

    It’s true we still don’t know the shooter’s race.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "As I have often said, Europeanness is not automatically next to Godliness – there are some pretty low rent whites around."

    Most low rent Whites in Europe are followers of the quran (Bosnians, Chechens, and Albanians).

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  127. @Big Bill
    Check out http://www.heyjackass.com.

    It is the "must see" website for all stats on Chicago shootings.

    They have a nice chart of shot placement for each shooting.

    Why is it that black folks tend to be able to aim a basketball at least adequately, but when it comes to small arms fire accuracy, they seem to trail whites by a significant margin? Related to their cultural experience, they are outrageously underrepresented in the Olympics in target shooting events.

    http://www.usashooting.org

    Any good ideas as to why this is? It seems obvious that the inherent branding opportunities is one of the last avenues of entrepreneurship that has been left untouched by aspiring black folks. Imagine a black Olympic Gold Medal Winner presenting his/her own line of handguns!
    Hell, imagine even Michael Jordan or Ice Cube and his NWA submitting a signature handgun line. Imagine the thrill of busting a cap into some scurrilous Hoodrat who owes you money with an Easy E Snubnose! Takin’ care of BIDNESS!!

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Oozy O, I can't answer about basketball, but in the Olympics there are no shooting events where the shooter shoots from inside a moving vehicle at a stationary or fleeing target. Coulda of happen though if Obama, Jarrett and Emanuel had landed the Olympics in Chicago.
    , @Triumph104
    With the exception of gymnastics, black youth don't engage in activities that require parental participation. Basketball doesn't require parental participation and it is impossible to avoid in the US. Basketball is a prestigious activity for blacks that can lead to scholarships, fame, and wealth. If a kid has a ball and access to a hoop he can practice by himself. That same kid will not be able to take himself to the gun range.


    This weekend is the gymnastics competition for men who are attempting to make the senior national team. Plenty of blacks.

    https://youtu.be/L0KlXgYAdjA?t=1403
    , @William Badwhite
    "Why is it that black folks tend to be able to aim a basketball at least adequately, but when it comes to small arms fire accuracy"

    Shooting accurately is very difficult and movies/tv shows etc greatly exaggerate the ease of hitting a target. There are numerous studies that show even well-trained handgun shooters (Marines, police, etc) when surprised are less than 50% accurate from inside 15 feet. By accurate I mean hitting their target at all, much less a center mass or head shot. This is one reason that if you see a video of a police shooting, they typically empty the magazine - they've been trained that most shots will miss so keep shooting.

    Shooting well requires both competence and currency. I'd guess the answer to your question is that the black people that shoot basketballs well are the black people that practice shooting basketballs. Staying current on shooting handguns requires access to a shooting range and the money to afford ammunition - something your average ghetto dweller likely does not have.

    White or black, people that don't know how to shoot a weapon properly are going to miss most of the time. For an example, look at the number of shots fired at the OK Corral and the number of hits.
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  128. @reiner Tor
    Albanians are phenotypically quite white, this guy is among the least European-looking Albanians. They often have blue or grey eyes and light brown hair (blondism is only frequent among their women due to hair dye), and their complexions are often lighter than that of Greeks or other Balkan peoples. I guess they must be genetically quite close to other Europeans as well. But they are totally undomesticated, are probably the most clannish and among the most violent Europeans. If having lived under Ottoman rule or being (nominally, their women have quite deep necklines) Muslim plays any role in this is anybody's guess.

    “Albanians are phenotypically quite white, this guy is among the least European-looking Albanians. They often have blue or grey eyes”

    Actually most Albanians do not have blue eyes. Only 11 percent of Albanian have blue eyes. When you also include other different shades of light eyes, only 20 percent of Albanians have non brown eyes.

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4581457/1/

    The late John Belushi was Albanian and he had brown eyes. Albanian pop singer Rita Ora has brown eyes. Hollywood casted a brown eyed Albanian actress named Masiela Lusha to play George Lopez’s Mexican daughter on his show.

    On average Albanians are closer to Mediterraneans in physical features than they are to Nordic people.

    If Albania was a majority blue eyed country, it would have made the goodest countries list that Steve Sailer posted, but it didn’t.

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    • Replies: @Lurker

    Albanian pop singer Rita Ora has brown eyes.
     
    I do wonder about her. She just doesnt look as if she is entirely European. This may just be some weird parallel evolution in her case and emphasized in hair styles, dress etc. I'm pretty sure her promotion in trash culture is something to do with her looking like she might be partly black.
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  129. The details and true facts of the slaughter of the Hanafi Muslims in Washington DC, will never be know. The baddest and boldest brothers from the Philly Black Muslim mosque perpetrated the deed WITH CASSIUS CLAY PAYING A VISIT ONE DAY BEFORE THE MASSACRE. The go ahead to do the deed was given then? The master himself said so [Elijah Poole].

    Who knows and who will ever know.

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  130. @Anonymous
    If you google "nba player wives" or "nba player girlfriends", there are only a few white women. A-list black men generally aren't keen about white women.

    Interesting. A lot of elite men (in any field) realize that they face a hard choice between procreating for pleasure or dynasty. If they are lucky they realize this before their first marriage. The best way of staving off regression to the mean is picking a wife with likely equal or better DNA for what makes you a success, or even complements a weakness.

    Thus I can see that a lot of black NBA wives might be black, tall and coordinated, with probably NBA or other pro athlete ancestors.

    I knew a good college level player (white). He was married to a tall successful intelligent female basketball player. Not unattractive but no bombshell. He would fool around with women whose defining characteristic was hotness. Although he was lucky enough to realize my point before his first marriage, perhaps unsurprisingly this did not stop him going on to have another marriage, though I lost contact with him before then. I thought of this example after I made my above point.

    To tie it back into the subject kind of, he would have made a good dog breeder.

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  131. @White Guy In Japan
    Holding the pistol sideways may be a factor.

    MTYHBUSTERS did a interesting show on this and found the sideways “gangsta” style of shooting was by far the most ineffective way to shoot someone. In some tests accuracy was as low as 1%.

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    Holding the gun sideways seems like more of an expression of intimidation where the intended target is given an unobstructed view of the shooter's glaring eyes than a serious attempt at marksmanship.

    Carefully looking down the sights would only prevent the shooter from daring the victim to look him in the eye and cower before pulling the trigger.

    That this behavior pattern reminds one of that of both those of African ancestry and our closet related species is not something that has escaped notice.

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=eye+contact++chimpanzee+intimidation
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  132. @Marty
    That Amren reprint of the 1958 article from Time puts the lie to the claim of several commenters here that the black population of San Francisco fell sharply in recent years. According to Time, in 1958 SF was 7% black. But according to the census, it was 7.8% in 2000 and 6.1 in 2010.

    Look at 1970 Census for San Francisco.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Look at 1970 Census for San Francisco.'

    San Francisco was 13 percent Black in 1970 when Dirry Harry Callahan ruled the streets with an iron fist.

    In 1980 Oakland was as Black as St. Louis.

    San Francisco was still majority White as recently as 1990, although to most Blacks San Francisco is still a majority White city because Asians to them are Honorary Whites.

    High income earning Asian techies are pricing Blacks out of San Francisco. Some historically Black neighborhoods in SF have turned into Asian Blade Runner world.

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  133. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Big Bill
    A great racialist and nationalist has died:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Ka40KovVo

    A firm believer in self-help:

    http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/1999/oct/17/life1.lifemagazine

    What's not to like?

    Personally I think Ali was right on about his views on people preferring their own kind. The British interviewer comes across to me as a pompous ass. I have to wonder if he really believed his liberal bull**** or just felt the need to parrot some lines, even though political correctness/cultural Marxism wasn’t that strong back then.

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  134. So in other words;

    900,000 whites = 1 shot.

    900,000 Hispanics = 11 shot.

    900,000 blacks = 52 shot.

    Looking at this it seems to me, that Hispanics are an incredibly violent group, while blacks are a super-incredibly violent one compared to whites.

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  135. @V Vega
    Why is it that black folks tend to be able to aim a basketball at least adequately, but when it comes to small arms fire accuracy, they seem to trail whites by a significant margin? Related to their cultural experience, they are outrageously underrepresented in the Olympics in target shooting events.

    http://www.usashooting.org

    Any good ideas as to why this is? It seems obvious that the inherent branding opportunities is one of the last avenues of entrepreneurship that has been left untouched by aspiring black folks. Imagine a black Olympic Gold Medal Winner presenting his/her own line of handguns!
    Hell, imagine even Michael Jordan or Ice Cube and his NWA submitting a signature handgun line. Imagine the thrill of busting a cap into some scurrilous Hoodrat who owes you money with an Easy E Snubnose! Takin' care of BIDNESS!!

    Oozy O, I can’t answer about basketball, but in the Olympics there are no shooting events where the shooter shoots from inside a moving vehicle at a stationary or fleeing target. Coulda of happen though if Obama, Jarrett and Emanuel had landed the Olympics in Chicago.

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  136. @Bugg
    More subversive, because Ali never landed a punch, Liston simply took a dive. In fact it's completely unreal.

    No, Liston got hit — but it didn’t look like the sort of hit that should’ve taken him out. In their first fight, it seemed as if Liston was fighting dirty, with something on his gloves that got in Ali’s (er, Clay’s) eyes. It’s all weird.

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  137. @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    After reading your fey criticism of Mr. Sailor’s essay, I decided to wade in to your latest missive, and good GOD, man…

    To quote a famous writer commenting on Jack Kerouac:
    “That’s not writing. That’s typing!

    Hire an editor, man!

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  138. @prosa123
    "Ken Norton won all 3 fights against Ali, though he only got the decision in one. Victim of an unexplained single vehicle car accident, and in a coma for 5 years"

    Untrue. He died after a series of strokes.

    The car accident happened in 1986, and Norton spent several years in a coma before coming out of it. Norton died many years later in 2013.

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  139. @Bugg
    Educated guess that Boston and East Coast crime families with an interest in fixing a fight had an interest in it being held in some out of the way place yet still under their control. As others have noted, no small irony that instead of taunting Liston, many have said Ali is in the photo yelling at him to get up to make the fix look real. No doubt he was a talented boxer, but he was really good at selling himself. Frazier and Foreman (at least in his first incarnation) were never in his class as salesmen. And ducking fights like a 2nd Foreman fight than everyone knew he would have lost badly if Foreman actually trained. Further he was expert at taking punishment, and it led to his Parkinson's Syndrome(which is not the same thing as Parkinson's Disease).

    Today we are inundated with the outpouring of sportswriters waxing poetic about a man who hated them and this country, and refused to serve it so he could professionally punch others in the face. Further I have nothing but contempt for Islam. Yet on the one occasion in his life when he could have shown moral courage to protect his friend Malcolm X, Ali did nothing to stand up for him nor stop his murder at the hands on Elijah Mohammed and his thugs. That is moral cowardice.

    After the assassination of Malcom X, Ali probably went with Elijah Muhammad for his own physical safety as much as anything.

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  140. @Connecticut Famer
    Both Liston fights have been subject to conspiracy theory. Liston was known to be consorting with "The Boys" (in the person of Frankie Carbo) and was something of a black Luca Brazzi. One theory holds that in both fights he was under orders to fold his tent so to speak.

    And why would the mob want Liston to lose? Ali was under the control of the Black Muslims. The Mob had no hook into him.

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    • Replies: @Bugg
    Bookmakers even La Cosa Nostra ones have (had given what's left even in NYC these days)no allegiance higher than their bottom lines. These guys only want to make sure they make money, which usually involves even play on both ends of a proposition. And in a Big Event they make even more if the psychology of the public helps them, and in this case they wanted lots of money on Liston against the hated upstart Ali.Better still if you can fix that outcome. Hard to do today. Last occasion that we know about on a big scale is Rick Kuhn working with Henry Hill at Boston College basketball in the 1980s. The ESPN 30 for 30 doc on that is pretty interesting.

    Knew 2 old time LCN bookies as friends and clients. And the psychology of the public plays out in odd ways when it comes to betting on sports. 3 examples; the 1969 and 2003 World Series and the Pats almost undefeated season. In 1969, every romantic drunk ass Mets fan bet a bit at wrong long odds, and given the misjudged odds the bookies took a serious bath. Along the same lines, the Yankees in 2003 were huge favorites such nobody bet them, but a few smart bettors took a very good Marlins team at long odds, and again bookies got hurt. As to the Pats, bookies were only too happy to take big overvalued bets on the Pats on the money line and on the spread, so they cleaned up.

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  141. @vinteuil
    Look, Mr. Revusky - this isn't all that hard. Even you could prob'ly get it, if you really tried.

    For at least the last 50 years, MSM outlets like Sports Illustrated have celebrated blacks behaving badly as some sort of noble rebellion against The Man...

    ...when, in fact, it's just blacks behaving badly (mostly against each other).

    …when, in fact, it’s just blacks behaving badly (mostly against each other).

    And Muhammad Ali knocking out Sonny Liston was an example of that?

    You see, as I said, the whole thing just doesn’t make any sense. But, never mind, that just doesn’t seem to bother people here.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Dear Mr. Revusky:

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don't get it.

    I get it.

    Steve

    , @vinteuil
    BTW - it wasn't the knockout that counted as " behaving badly." Please do try to keep up.
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  142. @anony-mouse
    Maybe there was a predecessor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Johnson_(boxer).

    Victorian gentlemanly amateur? Nah.

    I think the Ali schtick would only work in the TV era, not before.

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  143. @Boomstick
    They can't say for certain what the race of the shooter is because they don't have him in custody. Crime of this sort is almost entirely intra-racial, though.

    Only around a third of the murders in Chicago are considered solved, with an even lower conviction rate. The numbers in Chicago and other cities taken together are large enough to significantly influence the national statistic for "percent of murders committed by Blacks."

    For fraction of the money Soros has wasted on BLM, he could have funded surveillance cameras for Chicago’s most violent neighborhoods.

    I would like to know what percentage of Chicago homicides take place outside and could be captured on video.

    The gang murder trial I was a juror on that ended in an acquittal due to gross lack of evidence happened out in the middle of the street in front of a crowd on a hot summer’s night.

    If you watch The First 48, a large number of the shootings involving blacks that are resolved had video evidence. I imagine the show’s producers choose not to waste time attempting to track cases involving AAs that do not have either video, audio or social media evidence simply because the “no snitch” mentality makes the cases poor odds for resolution.

    Of course the last thing TWMNBN would want is more video that would end up on WSHH, SBPDL or Colin Flaherty’s Youtube channel.

    But improving the CPD murder case conviction rate by just 10% could dramatically lower the carnage.

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  144. @Jefferson
    "Albanians are phenotypically quite white, this guy is among the least European-looking Albanians. They often have blue or grey eyes"

    Actually most Albanians do not have blue eyes. Only 11 percent of Albanian have blue eyes. When you also include other different shades of light eyes, only 20 percent of Albanians have non brown eyes.
    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4581457/1/

    The late John Belushi was Albanian and he had brown eyes. Albanian pop singer Rita Ora has brown eyes. Hollywood casted a brown eyed Albanian actress named Masiela Lusha to play George Lopez's Mexican daughter on his show.

    On average Albanians are closer to Mediterraneans in physical features than they are to Nordic people.

    If Albania was a majority blue eyed country, it would have made the goodest countries list that Steve Sailer posted, but it didn't.

    Albanian pop singer Rita Ora has brown eyes.

    I do wonder about her. She just doesnt look as if she is entirely European. This may just be some weird parallel evolution in her case and emphasized in hair styles, dress etc. I’m pretty sure her promotion in trash culture is something to do with her looking like she might be partly black.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "I do wonder about her. She just doesnt look as if she is entirely European. This may just be some weird parallel evolution in her case and emphasized in hair styles, dress etc. I’m pretty sure her promotion in trash culture is something to do with her looking like she might be partly black."

    Some people also think Paula Abdul is partially Black, but she is just a swarthy Syrian Jew.

    There is an Italian woman named Melissa Gorga on The Real Housewives Of New Jersey who some people think is partially Black, but she is just a swarthy Sicilian.

    Her Sicilian father looks Middle Eastern like Borat.
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  145. @Jonathan Revusky

    …when, in fact, it’s just blacks behaving badly (mostly against each other).
     
    And Muhammad Ali knocking out Sonny Liston was an example of that?

    You see, as I said, the whole thing just doesn't make any sense. But, never mind, that just doesn't seem to bother people here.

    Dear Mr. Revusky:

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don’t get it.

    I get it.

    Steve

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    • Replies: @Mark2
    "Argument by incomprehension."
    , @Jonathan Revusky

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don’t get it.
     
    Uhh, yeah, actually, you're quite right. I don't typically "get it" here. I guess this is sort of "dog whistle" stuff.

    So I don't get it because I'm not a dog.

    I get it.
     
    Uhh, yeah, you understand your own point presumably. But I always figured that the point of writing was that the reader understand your point. That you understand your own point, in principle, goes without saying, no?

    Well, anyway, never mind... Don't worry about me hanging out here too much. I find it's a very mentally unhygienic sort of environment. These sort of clickbait articles and then all the people flocking here to rant about how beastly black people are.

    It's all my fault really. I've got to develop more mental discipline, refrain from clicking on these sorts of things.
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  146. @Jefferson
    "No more of the racially humiliating Joe Louis-style gentlemanliness. Chest-thumping, trash-talking black masculinity is unchained!"

    Having Negro style masculinity is bad if you want to stay out of trouble with the police and want to live a drama free life. But I recommend for East Asian men and White men to adopt Negro style masculinity only for trying to pick up women.

    Adopt the positive aspects of Negro masculinity, but none of the negative aspects of it. If you do that, you basically get Italian masculinity.

    Italian men aggressively pursue women just like Black men do, but commit crime at the level of WASP men. It's a perfect balance, it's the best of both worlds.

    There’s nothing “positive” about any of it. Machismo is a retrograde race to the bottom.

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  147. @JimB
    Having several of the nation's top teaching hospitals just off Lake Shore Drive guarantees a generous supply of good doctors for Chicagoans.

    A generous supply of gunshot riddled bodies is good practice for aspiring surgeons.

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    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    "A generous supply of gunshot riddled bodies is good practice for aspiring surgeons."

    In a prior life the US Army was one of my clients. IT stuff, nothing combat-related. I'd often have a lot of down time waiting for Colonel this or Major that to come to a meeting in a conference room on a base someplace. I'd sit there and read whatever magazines were lying around the waiting room. I remember reading an issue of "Stars and Stripes" circa 1991 and there was a multi-page article detailing how the Army was assigning many of its doctors to inner-city emergency rooms. The doctor they profiled in the article was assigned to a Baltimore hospital and enthusiastically described how the sort of gunshot wounds, burns, blunt force trauma, etc that he dealt with on a daily basis provided excellent real world training for the sort of injuries he'd expect to see on a battlefield.

    In case you're wondering how military doctors come along: after being accepted to medical school aspiring doctors can join a given service and in exchange for that service paying for medical school, the doctor takes on a military commitment. I don't recall exactly but I think it was something like 6-7 years in the service. They're usually accelerated in rank (rank equals pay) so you see a lot of doctors much younger than their rank would indicate (e.g. 30 year old Lt. Colonels). The downside is, if you let the Army pay for your medical school and the Army tells you to go be an ER doc in the southside of Chicago...off you go.
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  148. @Bugg
    Educated guess that Boston and East Coast crime families with an interest in fixing a fight had an interest in it being held in some out of the way place yet still under their control. As others have noted, no small irony that instead of taunting Liston, many have said Ali is in the photo yelling at him to get up to make the fix look real. No doubt he was a talented boxer, but he was really good at selling himself. Frazier and Foreman (at least in his first incarnation) were never in his class as salesmen. And ducking fights like a 2nd Foreman fight than everyone knew he would have lost badly if Foreman actually trained. Further he was expert at taking punishment, and it led to his Parkinson's Syndrome(which is not the same thing as Parkinson's Disease).

    Today we are inundated with the outpouring of sportswriters waxing poetic about a man who hated them and this country, and refused to serve it so he could professionally punch others in the face. Further I have nothing but contempt for Islam. Yet on the one occasion in his life when he could have shown moral courage to protect his friend Malcolm X, Ali did nothing to stand up for him nor stop his murder at the hands on Elijah Mohammed and his thugs. That is moral cowardice.

    I have no specific information on the Liston-Ali fight (either of them) beyond what’s on Wikipedia, but I do know that there were enormous amounts of illegal betting on major boxing matches in those days. Blacks mostly lack the kind of organizational skills to make stuff like this work, which is why the Italians controlled organized crime until RICO and the general cultural disintegration of “the old ways”.

    And the one thing most all the commenters on Liston seem agreed on is that he was both unbelievably tough and capable of punching harder than most of his contemporaries.

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    • Replies: @Chris

    And the one thing most all the commenters on Liston seem agreed on is that he was both unbelievably tough and capable of punching harder than most of his contemporaries.
     
    Those things do little good against a faster opponent who's nearly impossible to hit. Plodding around a ring for 15 rounds swinging at air while getting jabbed is demoralizing. Liston, who quit in late rounds in their first fight, most likely knew he was going to lose and decided to simply stay on the canvas from that punch he could have gotten up from.

    The Rumble in the Jungle fight with Foreman ten years later was a replay of the Liston fights. The fierce monster puncher was expected to silence the lighter-hitting loudmouth. Rumors of foulplay still swirl around it too.
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  149. @anon
    MTYHBUSTERS did a interesting show on this and found the sideways "gangsta" style of shooting was by far the most ineffective way to shoot someone. In some tests accuracy was as low as 1%.

    Holding the gun sideways seems like more of an expression of intimidation where the intended target is given an unobstructed view of the shooter’s glaring eyes than a serious attempt at marksmanship.

    Carefully looking down the sights would only prevent the shooter from daring the victim to look him in the eye and cower before pulling the trigger.

    That this behavior pattern reminds one of that of both those of African ancestry and our closet related species is not something that has escaped notice.

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=eye+contact++chimpanzee+intimidation

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  150. @Jack D
    I was curious about the one white guy shot. Was he shot by a non-white, which probably would have made 100% of the shooters black or Hispanic?

    I found this:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-man-held-without-bail-in-memorial-day-weekend-slaying-20160604-story.html

    Nope, his shooter was a pure European - one Mulosmani Florin.

    pure European – one Mulosmani Florin

    LOL.

    … Florin, who was born in Albania…

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  151. @Jefferson
    "No more of the racially humiliating Joe Louis-style gentlemanliness. Chest-thumping, trash-talking black masculinity is unchained!"

    Having Negro style masculinity is bad if you want to stay out of trouble with the police and want to live a drama free life. But I recommend for East Asian men and White men to adopt Negro style masculinity only for trying to pick up women.

    Adopt the positive aspects of Negro masculinity, but none of the negative aspects of it. If you do that, you basically get Italian masculinity.

    Italian men aggressively pursue women just like Black men do, but commit crime at the level of WASP men. It's a perfect balance, it's the best of both worlds.

    Negro style masculinity is fine. They use it against each other, no other race will be around these animals. Who cares, their population is whittled down by each other every night. Don’t argue the situation, just be happy it’s happening. I don’t want to go to downtown DC, Detroit or Philly anyway, nothing is there but Blaxx anyway. That they destroy each other in such numbers is a very, very good thing.

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  152. @Steve Sailer
    Dear Mr. Revusky:

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don't get it.

    I get it.

    Steve

    “Argument by incomprehension.”

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  153. @Steve Sailer
    Look at 1970 Census for San Francisco.

    “Look at 1970 Census for San Francisco.’

    San Francisco was 13 percent Black in 1970 when Dirry Harry Callahan ruled the streets with an iron fist.

    In 1980 Oakland was as Black as St. Louis.

    San Francisco was still majority White as recently as 1990, although to most Blacks San Francisco is still a majority White city because Asians to them are Honorary Whites.

    High income earning Asian techies are pricing Blacks out of San Francisco. Some historically Black neighborhoods in SF have turned into Asian Blade Runner world.

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    • Replies: @Marty
    Harry didn't show up until 1971.
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  154. @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

    Hill

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  155. Bugg says:
    @David In TN
    And why would the mob want Liston to lose? Ali was under the control of the Black Muslims. The Mob had no hook into him.

    Bookmakers even La Cosa Nostra ones have (had given what’s left even in NYC these days)no allegiance higher than their bottom lines. These guys only want to make sure they make money, which usually involves even play on both ends of a proposition. And in a Big Event they make even more if the psychology of the public helps them, and in this case they wanted lots of money on Liston against the hated upstart Ali.Better still if you can fix that outcome. Hard to do today. Last occasion that we know about on a big scale is Rick Kuhn working with Henry Hill at Boston College basketball in the 1980s. The ESPN 30 for 30 doc on that is pretty interesting.

    Knew 2 old time LCN bookies as friends and clients. And the psychology of the public plays out in odd ways when it comes to betting on sports. 3 examples; the 1969 and 2003 World Series and the Pats almost undefeated season. In 1969, every romantic drunk ass Mets fan bet a bit at wrong long odds, and given the misjudged odds the bookies took a serious bath. Along the same lines, the Yankees in 2003 were huge favorites such nobody bet them, but a few smart bettors took a very good Marlins team at long odds, and again bookies got hurt. As to the Pats, bookies were only too happy to take big overvalued bets on the Pats on the money line and on the spread, so they cleaned up.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    So what? When Ali won the title, Black Muslims not the Mob were in charge.
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  156. Lot says:
    @Spotted Toad
    Some economists studied the Houston Section 8 lottery; the applicants who won the lottery and received the housing voucher committed more crimes, mostly assaults. Men who won the lottery were twice as likely to get arrested than men who applied for Section 8 but lost. Basically, since spending the voucher is fungible with other spending, you can get drunk (or high, perhaps) more often if you win than if you don't, and consequently get in more fights. The voucher had no effect on women's propensity to commit crimes.

    https://economics.nd.edu/assets/153486/carr_jillian_jmp.pdf

    This is consistent with other findings that transfers fungible with cash tend to increase crime in the short term (aside from any increases in the long term due to "welfare dependency," change in culture, etc.)

    There is also something strange about giving away welfare benefits by lottery.

    I never understood why the GOP did not just shut down HUD by blocking its spending bill. That is the one cabinet-level government agency that does not do anything useful for core GOP interest groups. Sure there are section 8 landlords, but they are usually small time and not heavily Republican.

    Instead they shut down national parks, social security offices, and other popular parts of the federal government during their various government shutdown fights with Obama.

    There are all sorts of things that could be attached to a HUD funding bill that Obama would have to accept at pain of a HUD shutdown: end to sanctuary cities, defunding of anti-suburb HUD lawyers who demand the building of “affording housing,” ending affirmative action within the department and its contractors, conversion of underused public housing to detain asylum claimers rather than release them (never to return for their hearing).

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    This is another reason to support Trump. Trump (and of course his father) have spent decades working in real estate so if anyone would be familiar with demographic makeup of various neighborhoods it would be him.
    Really wouldn't put it past a future Trump administration to decide to close down HUD or to defund it, if he thought it was an agency that was underperforming or didn't make much sense to keep allowing to operate as it was changing the demographics of various US suburbs (prime building areas for middle class housing).
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  157. @V Vega
    Why is it that black folks tend to be able to aim a basketball at least adequately, but when it comes to small arms fire accuracy, they seem to trail whites by a significant margin? Related to their cultural experience, they are outrageously underrepresented in the Olympics in target shooting events.

    http://www.usashooting.org

    Any good ideas as to why this is? It seems obvious that the inherent branding opportunities is one of the last avenues of entrepreneurship that has been left untouched by aspiring black folks. Imagine a black Olympic Gold Medal Winner presenting his/her own line of handguns!
    Hell, imagine even Michael Jordan or Ice Cube and his NWA submitting a signature handgun line. Imagine the thrill of busting a cap into some scurrilous Hoodrat who owes you money with an Easy E Snubnose! Takin' care of BIDNESS!!

    With the exception of gymnastics, black youth don’t engage in activities that require parental participation. Basketball doesn’t require parental participation and it is impossible to avoid in the US. Basketball is a prestigious activity for blacks that can lead to scholarships, fame, and wealth. If a kid has a ball and access to a hoop he can practice by himself. That same kid will not be able to take himself to the gun range.

    This weekend is the gymnastics competition for men who are attempting to make the senior national team. Plenty of blacks.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    With a group that is around 75% out of wedlock births, lack of parental participation is putting it mildly.
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  158. @Jefferson
    In 1976 Vince McMahon was on commentary for the showdown between Muhammad Ali and the Italian Gorilla Monsoon.
    https://youtu.be/RSJf8v-EFhk

    Good catch, Jeff! Comedy gold!

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  159. @Former Darfur
    I have no specific information on the Liston-Ali fight (either of them) beyond what's on Wikipedia, but I do know that there were enormous amounts of illegal betting on major boxing matches in those days. Blacks mostly lack the kind of organizational skills to make stuff like this work, which is why the Italians controlled organized crime until RICO and the general cultural disintegration of "the old ways".

    And the one thing most all the commenters on Liston seem agreed on is that he was both unbelievably tough and capable of punching harder than most of his contemporaries.

    And the one thing most all the commenters on Liston seem agreed on is that he was both unbelievably tough and capable of punching harder than most of his contemporaries.

    Those things do little good against a faster opponent who’s nearly impossible to hit. Plodding around a ring for 15 rounds swinging at air while getting jabbed is demoralizing. Liston, who quit in late rounds in their first fight, most likely knew he was going to lose and decided to simply stay on the canvas from that punch he could have gotten up from.

    The Rumble in the Jungle fight with Foreman ten years later was a replay of the Liston fights. The fierce monster puncher was expected to silence the lighter-hitting loudmouth. Rumors of foulplay still swirl around it too.

    Read More
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  160. @Jack D
    As I have often said, Europeanness is not automatically next to Godliness - there are some pretty low rent whites around. Florian seems to have plugged into American white trash culture - neck tattoo, living in a motel, etc. I assume he is also a drug addict.

    Florian was perhaps not the sharpest knife in the criminal drawer. Attempts robbery inside a gas station where there are sure to be lots of security cameras. Kills someone but leaves lots of surviving witnesses. Sports large neck tattoo of Albanian eagle that makes him easily identifiable unless they can find 5 other guys with Albanian eagle neck tattoos for the lineup.

    Illinois no longer has the death penalty but it does have life sentences without parole so Florian is probably never getting out. Under the felony murder doctrine he is just as guilty of murder as the shooter.

    It's true we still don't know the shooter's race.

    “As I have often said, Europeanness is not automatically next to Godliness – there are some pretty low rent whites around.”

    Most low rent Whites in Europe are followers of the quran (Bosnians, Chechens, and Albanians).

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  161. @Seran
    Kids of black/white parents who have a white father tend to look more white.
    It could explain why white brazilians look so strange, they were all descendants of white fathers.

    “Kids of black/white parents who have a white father tend to look more white.
    It could explain why white brazilians look so strange, they were all descendants of white fathers.”

    Are you saying White Brazilians have Black mothers? That is news to Gisele Bundchen and blond haired and blue eyed Tiago Splitter from The San Antonio Spurs for example, that their mothers are Black.

    Negro maternal genes must be extremely weak in Brazil when it comes to phenotype.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Plus Brazil has the South American Indians that are part of their DNA admixture. Didn't Brazil have a fairly large German population that immigrated to Brazil about a century or so ago?

    Bundchen does sound like a German surname.
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  162. @Big Bill
    A great racialist and nationalist has died:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Ka40KovVo

    A firm believer in self-help:

    http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/1999/oct/17/life1.lifemagazine

    What's not to like?

    “What’s not to like?”

    Want a list or just the highlights?

    Did he serve when asked to? Say what you will about Joe Louis (who did serve and didn’t use CO and other trickery to dodge the draft), when he knocked out Max Schmeling in ’35, it was like he was fighting for the US on a much larger scale (as world events would later prove). Louis is similiar in that vein with Jesse Owens’s ’36 Olympics performance. Ali, by contrast, was just a loud mouthed dim witted thug. He really wasn’t any different than say, Mike Tyson. But perhaps some here as well as the US will mourn Tyson’s passing one day. And of course apparently Tyson supports Trump, so “obviously” he can’t be all that bad.

    As far as popular culture icons in the US, one could easily write the same lines about Ali one day about Snoop Dog. You can find various interviews over the years about his views on self-reliance, etc. He has an intact family and sponsors various charities (e.g. Pee Wee Football in Oakland area to raise money for various charities). See? Calvin Broadas is probably a natural GOP or a natural conservative, he just doesn’t know it yet.

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  163. @Jefferson
    "Kids of black/white parents who have a white father tend to look more white.
    It could explain why white brazilians look so strange, they were all descendants of white fathers."

    Are you saying White Brazilians have Black mothers? That is news to Gisele Bundchen and blond haired and blue eyed Tiago Splitter from The San Antonio Spurs for example, that their mothers are Black.
    http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2010/news/features/fran_blinebury/07/22/spurs/tiago.jpg

    Negro maternal genes must be extremely weak in Brazil when it comes to phenotype.

    Plus Brazil has the South American Indians that are part of their DNA admixture. Didn’t Brazil have a fairly large German population that immigrated to Brazil about a century or so ago?

    Bundchen does sound like a German surname.

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  164. @Triumph104
    With the exception of gymnastics, black youth don't engage in activities that require parental participation. Basketball doesn't require parental participation and it is impossible to avoid in the US. Basketball is a prestigious activity for blacks that can lead to scholarships, fame, and wealth. If a kid has a ball and access to a hoop he can practice by himself. That same kid will not be able to take himself to the gun range.


    This weekend is the gymnastics competition for men who are attempting to make the senior national team. Plenty of blacks.

    https://youtu.be/L0KlXgYAdjA?t=1403

    With a group that is around 75% out of wedlock births, lack of parental participation is putting it mildly.

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  165. @Lot
    There is also something strange about giving away welfare benefits by lottery.

    I never understood why the GOP did not just shut down HUD by blocking its spending bill. That is the one cabinet-level government agency that does not do anything useful for core GOP interest groups. Sure there are section 8 landlords, but they are usually small time and not heavily Republican.

    Instead they shut down national parks, social security offices, and other popular parts of the federal government during their various government shutdown fights with Obama.

    There are all sorts of things that could be attached to a HUD funding bill that Obama would have to accept at pain of a HUD shutdown: end to sanctuary cities, defunding of anti-suburb HUD lawyers who demand the building of "affording housing," ending affirmative action within the department and its contractors, conversion of underused public housing to detain asylum claimers rather than release them (never to return for their hearing).

    This is another reason to support Trump. Trump (and of course his father) have spent decades working in real estate so if anyone would be familiar with demographic makeup of various neighborhoods it would be him.
    Really wouldn’t put it past a future Trump administration to decide to close down HUD or to defund it, if he thought it was an agency that was underperforming or didn’t make much sense to keep allowing to operate as it was changing the demographics of various US suburbs (prime building areas for middle class housing).

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  166. @Lurker

    Albanian pop singer Rita Ora has brown eyes.
     
    I do wonder about her. She just doesnt look as if she is entirely European. This may just be some weird parallel evolution in her case and emphasized in hair styles, dress etc. I'm pretty sure her promotion in trash culture is something to do with her looking like she might be partly black.

    “I do wonder about her. She just doesnt look as if she is entirely European. This may just be some weird parallel evolution in her case and emphasized in hair styles, dress etc. I’m pretty sure her promotion in trash culture is something to do with her looking like she might be partly black.”

    Some people also think Paula Abdul is partially Black, but she is just a swarthy Syrian Jew.

    There is an Italian woman named Melissa Gorga on The Real Housewives Of New Jersey who some people think is partially Black, but she is just a swarthy Sicilian.

    Her Sicilian father looks Middle Eastern like Borat.

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  167. @Bugg
    Bookmakers even La Cosa Nostra ones have (had given what's left even in NYC these days)no allegiance higher than their bottom lines. These guys only want to make sure they make money, which usually involves even play on both ends of a proposition. And in a Big Event they make even more if the psychology of the public helps them, and in this case they wanted lots of money on Liston against the hated upstart Ali.Better still if you can fix that outcome. Hard to do today. Last occasion that we know about on a big scale is Rick Kuhn working with Henry Hill at Boston College basketball in the 1980s. The ESPN 30 for 30 doc on that is pretty interesting.

    Knew 2 old time LCN bookies as friends and clients. And the psychology of the public plays out in odd ways when it comes to betting on sports. 3 examples; the 1969 and 2003 World Series and the Pats almost undefeated season. In 1969, every romantic drunk ass Mets fan bet a bit at wrong long odds, and given the misjudged odds the bookies took a serious bath. Along the same lines, the Yankees in 2003 were huge favorites such nobody bet them, but a few smart bettors took a very good Marlins team at long odds, and again bookies got hurt. As to the Pats, bookies were only too happy to take big overvalued bets on the Pats on the money line and on the spread, so they cleaned up.

    So what? When Ali won the title, Black Muslims not the Mob were in charge.

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  168. In the 1970s, a lot of Italian men in The U.S with the 70s looking black mustaches could pass for Middle Easterners. I am talking about the Tom Savini and Jim Croce looking mustaches.

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  169. Ali would have been no match for the much bigger and stronger Lennox Lewis or Klitschko brothers.

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  170. @whorefinder
    As the expression goes, business is business.

    ‘As the expression goes, business is business.”

    Instead of leave the gun & take the cannoli, it’s leave the gun and take the quran.

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  171. Marty [AKA "coot veal or cot deal"] says:
    @Jefferson
    "Look at 1970 Census for San Francisco.'

    San Francisco was 13 percent Black in 1970 when Dirry Harry Callahan ruled the streets with an iron fist.

    In 1980 Oakland was as Black as St. Louis.

    San Francisco was still majority White as recently as 1990, although to most Blacks San Francisco is still a majority White city because Asians to them are Honorary Whites.

    High income earning Asian techies are pricing Blacks out of San Francisco. Some historically Black neighborhoods in SF have turned into Asian Blade Runner world.

    Harry didn’t show up until 1971.

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  172. @Jonathan Revusky
    Mr. Sailer has a voluminous output and many people seem to enjoy it, so who am I to judge? But it really does seem to me that it would be better if he only wrote articles when he actually has something to say.

    Perhaps it would be a good time for Steve to come out with a greatest hits compilation and put it out as an ebook on Amazon.

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  173. @Steve Sailer
    Dear Mr. Revusky:

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don't get it.

    I get it.

    Steve

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don’t get it.

    Uhh, yeah, actually, you’re quite right. I don’t typically “get it” here. I guess this is sort of “dog whistle” stuff.

    So I don’t get it because I’m not a dog.

    I get it.

    Uhh, yeah, you understand your own point presumably. But I always figured that the point of writing was that the reader understand your point. That you understand your own point, in principle, goes without saying, no?

    Well, anyway, never mind… Don’t worry about me hanging out here too much. I find it’s a very mentally unhygienic sort of environment. These sort of clickbait articles and then all the people flocking here to rant about how beastly black people are.

    It’s all my fault really. I’ve got to develop more mental discipline, refrain from clicking on these sorts of things.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    Is this [infra] you, by any chance?

    https://www.facebook.com/revusky

    If so, you really ought to reconsider your above denial....
    , @reiner Tor
    We'll miss you.
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  174. @Wanderer
    A tell-all about the Clintons?

    http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

    Now, who is going to write a book about Trump's ugly secrets? Perhaps he will appoint his horse to the Senate?

    You nearly had Secretariat for Vice President.

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  175. Oh no! Does this mean we don’t have Revusky to kick around anymore?

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  176. @Jonathan Revusky

    …when, in fact, it’s just blacks behaving badly (mostly against each other).
     
    And Muhammad Ali knocking out Sonny Liston was an example of that?

    You see, as I said, the whole thing just doesn't make any sense. But, never mind, that just doesn't seem to bother people here.

    BTW – it wasn’t the knockout that counted as ” behaving badly.” Please do try to keep up.

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  177. @Jonathan Revusky

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don’t get it.
     
    Uhh, yeah, actually, you're quite right. I don't typically "get it" here. I guess this is sort of "dog whistle" stuff.

    So I don't get it because I'm not a dog.

    I get it.
     
    Uhh, yeah, you understand your own point presumably. But I always figured that the point of writing was that the reader understand your point. That you understand your own point, in principle, goes without saying, no?

    Well, anyway, never mind... Don't worry about me hanging out here too much. I find it's a very mentally unhygienic sort of environment. These sort of clickbait articles and then all the people flocking here to rant about how beastly black people are.

    It's all my fault really. I've got to develop more mental discipline, refrain from clicking on these sorts of things.

    Is this [infra] you, by any chance?

    https://www.facebook.com/revusky

    If so, you really ought to reconsider your above denial….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Is this [infra] you, by any chance?
     
    Well, how many people do you think have the same name as me?

    Look, in general, if I write something, I sign my name to it, just sort of on principle, because I feel it's the minimum step of taking responsibility for what one says. Maybe it's a naive attitude and I shouldn't do that. But I do it...

    But the point is this: if you choose to be anonymous, i.e. to hide your face, it is completely improper for you to point at things you dig up on google and say insulting things to me when I do not hide my face. In short, say any personal thing you want to me, but show your face, don't say it from behind a mask. I mean that's pathetic.

    It's completely improper and that you seem to think this is okay marks you as some sort of moral imbecile.
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  178. @JimB
    Part of Steve's job is to debunk the Narrative in real time. Even on the Drudge Report you will see a rush to deify this pugilistic cretin.

    Muhammed Ali was a saint of the antiwar and civil rights movement for having refused to register for the draft, essentially saying he owed the US nothing as a black man. And he is held up as a model of black grit and clean living, even as he became a dupe of the black muslim church who exploited him to make money and forced him to fight long after symptoms of permanent brain injury were apparent. With friends like the Black Muslims, who needs enemies? In the end, a group of sports loving white businessmen charitably worked to create endorsement deals to put him financially back in shape for his retirement.

    In the end, Ali was a lousy model for black youth, teaching them full throated high self regard based on nothing, the culture of dissing, and the imperative of settling meaningless arguments over who's the best with violence.

    Cassius Clay, in fact, did register for the draft, in 1960. It was when he (since “rechristened” as Muhammad Ali) was called upon to be inducted, on April 28, 1967, that he refused to step forward and be sworn into military service.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali#Vietnam_War_and_resistance_to_the_draft

    Ali caught a major break, when the Supreme Court reversed his conviction on procedural grounds, without remanding his case to be reconsidered. It is clear to me, from his own statements, that he was not really a pacifist who truly believed that his own religion forbade him to fight, in any and all circumstances; he merely did not believe in his fighting for the United States– and especially not against the (non-white) Vietnamese– rather than in the name of Allah and Islam, against the infidels.

    (My own priestly brother became a conscientious objector, after graduating from Notre Dame. He entered the seminary, at the Pontifical North American College, in Rome, after sitting out a year, while his appeal was settled. He wound up, for several years, in the middle of El Salvador’s infamous civil war.)

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Every US male on turning 18 had to register for the draft (same as today). It never fully jibed that Ali, a supposed pacifist, made his living beating up people in a ring. After all, if he could fight in the ring, he could fight in real life overseas.
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  179. @Jonathan Revusky

    Thank you for reiterating your point several times that you just don’t get it.
     
    Uhh, yeah, actually, you're quite right. I don't typically "get it" here. I guess this is sort of "dog whistle" stuff.

    So I don't get it because I'm not a dog.

    I get it.
     
    Uhh, yeah, you understand your own point presumably. But I always figured that the point of writing was that the reader understand your point. That you understand your own point, in principle, goes without saying, no?

    Well, anyway, never mind... Don't worry about me hanging out here too much. I find it's a very mentally unhygienic sort of environment. These sort of clickbait articles and then all the people flocking here to rant about how beastly black people are.

    It's all my fault really. I've got to develop more mental discipline, refrain from clicking on these sorts of things.

    We’ll miss you.

    Read More
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  180. @Anonymous
    Incidentally, his daughter married a white man. I wonder if it was her way of rebelling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvOa72BUAi0

    His grandson looks like a young James Remar.

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  181. @D. K.
    Cassius Clay, in fact, did register for the draft, in 1960. It was when he (since "rechristened" as Muhammad Ali) was called upon to be inducted, on April 28, 1967, that he refused to step forward and be sworn into military service.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali#Vietnam_War_and_resistance_to_the_draft

    Ali caught a major break, when the Supreme Court reversed his conviction on procedural grounds, without remanding his case to be reconsidered. It is clear to me, from his own statements, that he was not really a pacifist who truly believed that his own religion forbade him to fight, in any and all circumstances; he merely did not believe in his fighting for the United States-- and especially not against the (non-white) Vietnamese-- rather than in the name of Allah and Islam, against the infidels.

    (My own priestly brother became a conscientious objector, after graduating from Notre Dame. He entered the seminary, at the Pontifical North American College, in Rome, after sitting out a year, while his appeal was settled. He wound up, for several years, in the middle of El Salvador's infamous civil war.)

    Every US male on turning 18 had to register for the draft (same as today). It never fully jibed that Ali, a supposed pacifist, made his living beating up people in a ring. After all, if he could fight in the ring, he could fight in real life overseas.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    George Carlin did a routine on the tension between what Ali did and what the government wanted him to do instead:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9kTAz-cc0Q
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  182. @anonymouse
    How to explain his doggerel poetry then. His handlers didn't compose it for him to recite. On a different subject, I should add that I've been increasingly enjoying reading iSteve comments.

    Well, you explained it all ready: it was doggerel, verbal diarrhea, which would have been chided as such had he been white. His black privilege, however, made the lefties pretend what he said was worth consideration.

    One adaptation of many lower IQ-but-energetic people is to cobble together various phrases–mostly cliched ones–to serve as all-purpose responses when facing a smarter person talking to them. Either exerting dominance to cover up their lack of intelligence–”shut up, nerd/white man/fool”—or else to overload the opponent with a barrage of nonsense, off the cuff, to confuse them. Rap, for example, became popular because of its relation to this phenomenon.

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  183. I’m kind of thinking out loud here: I’ve read that prior to the advent of modern Kevlar body armor the ratio of killed to wounded in combat was 1 to 2.4. On average for every one combatant killed there would be 2.4 wounded casualties.

    Periodically I read about the number of weekend shootings in Chicago and the ratio is usually something similar to this current one; 6 killed, 58 wounded. That’s 1 killed for every 9.7 wounded. I realize that these thugs aren’t trained to shot like soldiers & marines are. I also realize that the Chicago thugs are using guns only; no grenades, mortars, artillery, airstrikes, etc. I also realize that some of the wounded may subsequently die. I also realize that the thugs aren’t trying to “take and hold ground” which requires a higher level of violence than the kind of “hit-and-run” tactics likely being used in Chicago. Still, as a retired army master sergeant I’m both surprised and curious as to why so few are killed.

    “A penny for your thoughts.”

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  184. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Every US male on turning 18 had to register for the draft (same as today). It never fully jibed that Ali, a supposed pacifist, made his living beating up people in a ring. After all, if he could fight in the ring, he could fight in real life overseas.

    George Carlin did a routine on the tension between what Ali did and what the government wanted him to do instead:

    Read More
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  185. @D. K.
    Is this [infra] you, by any chance?

    https://www.facebook.com/revusky

    If so, you really ought to reconsider your above denial....

    Is this [infra] you, by any chance?

    Well, how many people do you think have the same name as me?

    Look, in general, if I write something, I sign my name to it, just sort of on principle, because I feel it’s the minimum step of taking responsibility for what one says. Maybe it’s a naive attitude and I shouldn’t do that. But I do it…

    But the point is this: if you choose to be anonymous, i.e. to hide your face, it is completely improper for you to point at things you dig up on google and say insulting things to me when I do not hide my face. In short, say any personal thing you want to me, but show your face, don’t say it from behind a mask. I mean that’s pathetic.

    It’s completely improper and that you seem to think this is okay marks you as some sort of moral imbecile.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    Your bark is much worse than your intellectual bite, Johnnie, as is demonstrated by your inability even to grasp this blog post. Stick to hanging out with your fellow geeks.
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  186. @Anonymous
    If you google "nba player wives" or "nba player girlfriends", there are only a few white women. A-list black men generally aren't keen about white women.

    A-list black men generally aren’t keen about white women.

    I think it depends on their level of socialization. More civilized blacks are able to navigate white cultural norms (such as they are) and not totally embarrass or insult middle class white women.

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  187. @Jonathan Revusky

    Is this [infra] you, by any chance?
     
    Well, how many people do you think have the same name as me?

    Look, in general, if I write something, I sign my name to it, just sort of on principle, because I feel it's the minimum step of taking responsibility for what one says. Maybe it's a naive attitude and I shouldn't do that. But I do it...

    But the point is this: if you choose to be anonymous, i.e. to hide your face, it is completely improper for you to point at things you dig up on google and say insulting things to me when I do not hide my face. In short, say any personal thing you want to me, but show your face, don't say it from behind a mask. I mean that's pathetic.

    It's completely improper and that you seem to think this is okay marks you as some sort of moral imbecile.

    Your bark is much worse than your intellectual bite, Johnnie, as is demonstrated by your inability even to grasp this blog post. Stick to hanging out with your fellow geeks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Your bark is much worse than your intellectual bite, Johnnie, as is demonstrated by your inability even to grasp this blog post.
     
    I'm pretty satisfied that there's nothing there to grasp. If there was something there, presumably, you'd make some attempt to explain it rather than resorting to personal attacks.

    But again, this business of trying to dig up something personal about me when you yourself are availing yourself of anonymity -- this really shows what kind of person you are. But, anyway, there's no debate going on here. You essentially conceded by doing that. It's a tacit admission that you have nothing valid to say.
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  188. @V Vega
    Why is it that black folks tend to be able to aim a basketball at least adequately, but when it comes to small arms fire accuracy, they seem to trail whites by a significant margin? Related to their cultural experience, they are outrageously underrepresented in the Olympics in target shooting events.

    http://www.usashooting.org

    Any good ideas as to why this is? It seems obvious that the inherent branding opportunities is one of the last avenues of entrepreneurship that has been left untouched by aspiring black folks. Imagine a black Olympic Gold Medal Winner presenting his/her own line of handguns!
    Hell, imagine even Michael Jordan or Ice Cube and his NWA submitting a signature handgun line. Imagine the thrill of busting a cap into some scurrilous Hoodrat who owes you money with an Easy E Snubnose! Takin' care of BIDNESS!!

    “Why is it that black folks tend to be able to aim a basketball at least adequately, but when it comes to small arms fire accuracy”

    Shooting accurately is very difficult and movies/tv shows etc greatly exaggerate the ease of hitting a target. There are numerous studies that show even well-trained handgun shooters (Marines, police, etc) when surprised are less than 50% accurate from inside 15 feet. By accurate I mean hitting their target at all, much less a center mass or head shot. This is one reason that if you see a video of a police shooting, they typically empty the magazine – they’ve been trained that most shots will miss so keep shooting.

    Shooting well requires both competence and currency. I’d guess the answer to your question is that the black people that shoot basketballs well are the black people that practice shooting basketballs. Staying current on shooting handguns requires access to a shooting range and the money to afford ammunition – something your average ghetto dweller likely does not have.

    White or black, people that don’t know how to shoot a weapon properly are going to miss most of the time. For an example, look at the number of shots fired at the OK Corral and the number of hits.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
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  189. @Lurker
    A generous supply of gunshot riddled bodies is good practice for aspiring surgeons.

    “A generous supply of gunshot riddled bodies is good practice for aspiring surgeons.”

    In a prior life the US Army was one of my clients. IT stuff, nothing combat-related. I’d often have a lot of down time waiting for Colonel this or Major that to come to a meeting in a conference room on a base someplace. I’d sit there and read whatever magazines were lying around the waiting room. I remember reading an issue of “Stars and Stripes” circa 1991 and there was a multi-page article detailing how the Army was assigning many of its doctors to inner-city emergency rooms. The doctor they profiled in the article was assigned to a Baltimore hospital and enthusiastically described how the sort of gunshot wounds, burns, blunt force trauma, etc that he dealt with on a daily basis provided excellent real world training for the sort of injuries he’d expect to see on a battlefield.

    In case you’re wondering how military doctors come along: after being accepted to medical school aspiring doctors can join a given service and in exchange for that service paying for medical school, the doctor takes on a military commitment. I don’t recall exactly but I think it was something like 6-7 years in the service. They’re usually accelerated in rank (rank equals pay) so you see a lot of doctors much younger than their rank would indicate (e.g. 30 year old Lt. Colonels). The downside is, if you let the Army pay for your medical school and the Army tells you to go be an ER doc in the southside of Chicago…off you go.

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  190. @D. K.
    Your bark is much worse than your intellectual bite, Johnnie, as is demonstrated by your inability even to grasp this blog post. Stick to hanging out with your fellow geeks.

    Your bark is much worse than your intellectual bite, Johnnie, as is demonstrated by your inability even to grasp this blog post.

    I’m pretty satisfied that there’s nothing there to grasp. If there was something there, presumably, you’d make some attempt to explain it rather than resorting to personal attacks.

    But again, this business of trying to dig up something personal about me when you yourself are availing yourself of anonymity — this really shows what kind of person you are. But, anyway, there’s no debate going on here. You essentially conceded by doing that. It’s a tacit admission that you have nothing valid to say.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    We'll miss you, Jon.
    , @D. K.
    I did not go off trying to "dig up" (again with the "dog" metaphor!) something on you, Johnnie; I merely was interested in seeing what kind of a putz you appear to be, outside of your comments here. As I already had said, you truly are a geek-- as you yourself admit, elsewhere.

    As for me, I am a mere commenter here, not a member of the unz.com contributors, like Steve-- and even you! You obviously use your real identity, here and elsewhere, because you want to be known and admired for what you obviously consider to be your obvious intellectual brilliance. "You pays your money, you takes your chances."

    As a mere commenter here, I feel no moral requirement, as you claim I ought, to use my actual name, thus bringing unwanted attention not only to my personal life, but to those whom I know and love. Instead, I use my real initials, here and elsewhere. I never have told a lie about myself, in the few thousands of comments that I have posted, here and elsewhere, and anyone with a sufficient IQ should be able to "dig up" plenty on me, since my body of comments are replete with a vast amount of identifying information about me, as well as about my family, friends and former associates, whom I also choose not to name, with the exception of a few of my former professors, who are renown in their fields. The notion that I and others here who choose to remain anonymous or pseudonymous are morally proscribed from criticizing you personally, while you are free to do so to us, individually and collectively, is a laughable conceit on your part.

    You began your comments here by criticizing Steve for even posting this particular piece, and by implying that you yourself are not one who enjoys Steve's "voluminous output"-- begging the question of just why you are here commenting, at all!?! In your second comment, replying to commenter 'PiltdownMan', who had found your complaint "curious," you claimed that you had lodged no complaint at all, because you "didn't lay out any specific grievance." I find that defense of your initial comment, above, "curious"-- but not nearly as dubious as your follow-up remark, in that same reply:

    "Now, the whole notion that a boxing match between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston has anything to do with 'black on black violence' is pretty ridiculous."

    Two black men beating the hell out of each other, in front of a huge audience, in order to gain acclaim and lucre, and you see no "'black on black [sic] violence?'" "[R]idiculous" indeed....

    I will not go through the complete tape of you and other commenters, above, sparring over this particular post. I will just point to a comment, by commenter 'JimB', that amply answered your initial "[non-]complaint" about it, before I ever dared to incite your righteous ire by pointing to your own canine nature:

    ***

    Part of Steve’s job is to debunk the Narrative in real time. Even on the Drudge Report you will see a rush to deify this pugilistic cretin.

    Muhammed Ali was a saint of the antiwar and civil rights movement for having refused to register for the draft, essentially saying he owed the US nothing as a black man. And he is held up as a model of black grit and clean living, even as he became a dupe of the black muslim church who exploited him to make money and forced him to fight long after symptoms of permanent brain injury were apparent. With friends like the Black Muslims, who needs enemies? In the end, a group of sports loving white businessmen charitably worked to create endorsement deals to put him financially back in shape for his retirement.

    In the end, Ali was a lousy model for black youth, teaching them full throated high self regard based on nothing, the culture of dissing, and the imperative of settling meaningless arguments over who’s the best with violence.

    ***

    That comment was seconded by commenter 'Triumph104'. I myself replied to it, but only to correct the record as to Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali and the Selective Service Administration. The most curious thing about that well-stated defense of this blog post by Steve Sailer is in who did not deign to reply to it: one Jonathan Revusky, of the Tarragona Revuskys. Had it escaped your notice, for these past fifty-some hours, Johnnie boy? Perhaps this reiteration of it, with its succinct summation of the ultimate point of Muhammad Ali's actual salience in American cultural life, will induce you to tear into it, with your bulldog tenacity and pit bull ferocity (intellectually speaking, of course).

    When Steve Sailer himself tired of your monotonous growling, however, you did promptly reply to him:

    ***

    Uhh, yeah, actually, you’re quite right. I don’t typically “get it” here. I guess this is sort of “dog whistle” stuff.

    So I don’t get it because I’m not a dog.

    . . .

    Uhh, yeah, you understand your own point presumably. But I always figured that the point of writing was that the reader understand your point. That you understand your own point, in principle, goes without saying, no?

    Well, anyway, never mind… Don’t worry about me hanging out here too much. I find it’s a very mentally unhygienic sort of environment. These sort of clickbait articles and then all the people flocking here to rant about how beastly black people are.

    It’s all my fault really. I’ve got to develop more mental discipline, refrain from clicking on these sorts of things.

    ***

    Apparently, as a self-styled geek, and perhaps also as someone on the ASRS, your own English comprehension skills suffer a significant loss in deciphering interpersonal communication. When Steve remarked "I get it," he was acknowledging-- as should be obvious to any native English-speaking adult with a three-digit IQ who is not languishing on the aforementioned scale-- that he understood the import of your constant complaint that you found this particular blog post to be inanely meaningless, along with most of the rest of Steve's blog posts. He was not defending it by claiming that he himself understood it, "so there!"

    To date, and without reviewing the full tape, I cannot recall a single other commenter, here, who has seconded that complaint of yours (which, of course, you deny even was a complaint). To you, that merely confirms that we are all "dogs"-- i.e., "RACISTS!"-- who can hear Steve's metaphorical "whistle" to come running, salivating at his malicious and malignant stereotypes about Blacks that you, as a righteous anti-racist and ally of all oppressed non-Whites, cannot hear yourself, but can infer, as all good anti-racists can, from the pack of rabid hounds racing by you to tear voraciously at Mr. Sailer's pseudo-intellectual raw meat.
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  191. @Jonathan Revusky

    Your bark is much worse than your intellectual bite, Johnnie, as is demonstrated by your inability even to grasp this blog post.
     
    I'm pretty satisfied that there's nothing there to grasp. If there was something there, presumably, you'd make some attempt to explain it rather than resorting to personal attacks.

    But again, this business of trying to dig up something personal about me when you yourself are availing yourself of anonymity -- this really shows what kind of person you are. But, anyway, there's no debate going on here. You essentially conceded by doing that. It's a tacit admission that you have nothing valid to say.

    We’ll miss you, Jon.

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  192. I’m as sad as everybody else about the departure of Mr. Revusky. Yet I find it curious that while he has found time to comment about the conspiratorial nature (inside job!) of the Zebra murders and hint about 911 or other similar events, he’s yet to write a single line about Paul Walker and his mysterious death at the very young age of 40. I’m sure there must be a conspiracy lurking around, because 40-year-olds don’t just die suddenly, especially not if they are such giants like Paul Walker.

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  193. D. K. says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    Your bark is much worse than your intellectual bite, Johnnie, as is demonstrated by your inability even to grasp this blog post.
     
    I'm pretty satisfied that there's nothing there to grasp. If there was something there, presumably, you'd make some attempt to explain it rather than resorting to personal attacks.

    But again, this business of trying to dig up something personal about me when you yourself are availing yourself of anonymity -- this really shows what kind of person you are. But, anyway, there's no debate going on here. You essentially conceded by doing that. It's a tacit admission that you have nothing valid to say.

    I did not go off trying to “dig up” (again with the “dog” metaphor!) something on you, Johnnie; I merely was interested in seeing what kind of a putz you appear to be, outside of your comments here. As I already had said, you truly are a geek– as you yourself admit, elsewhere.

    As for me, I am a mere commenter here, not a member of the unz.com contributors, like Steve– and even you! You obviously use your real identity, here and elsewhere, because you want to be known and admired for what you obviously consider to be your obvious intellectual brilliance. “You pays your money, you takes your chances.”

    As a mere commenter here, I feel no moral requirement, as you claim I ought, to use my actual name, thus bringing unwanted attention not only to my personal life, but to those whom I know and love. Instead, I use my real initials, here and elsewhere. I never have told a lie about myself, in the few thousands of comments that I have posted, here and elsewhere, and anyone with a sufficient IQ should be able to “dig up” plenty on me, since my body of comments are replete with a vast amount of identifying information about me, as well as about my family, friends and former associates, whom I also choose not to name, with the exception of a few of my former professors, who are renown in their fields. The notion that I and others here who choose to remain anonymous or pseudonymous are morally proscribed from criticizing you personally, while you are free to do so to us, individually and collectively, is a laughable conceit on your part.

    You began your comments here by criticizing Steve for even posting this particular piece, and by implying that you yourself are not one who enjoys Steve’s “voluminous output”– begging the question of just why you are here commenting, at all!?! In your second comment, replying to commenter ‘PiltdownMan’, who had found your complaint “curious,” you claimed that you had lodged no complaint at all, because you “didn’t lay out any specific grievance.” I find that defense of your initial comment, above, “curious”– but not nearly as dubious as your follow-up remark, in that same reply:

    “Now, the whole notion that a boxing match between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston has anything to do with ‘black on black violence’ is pretty ridiculous.”

    Two black men beating the hell out of each other, in front of a huge audience, in order to gain acclaim and lucre, and you see no “‘black on black [sic] violence?’” “[R]idiculous” indeed….

    I will not go through the complete tape of you and other commenters, above, sparring over this particular post. I will just point to a comment, by commenter ‘JimB’, that amply answered your initial “[non-]complaint” about it, before I ever dared to incite your righteous ire by pointing to your own canine nature:

    ***

    Part of Steve’s job is to debunk the Narrative in real time. Even on the Drudge Report you will see a rush to deify this pugilistic cretin.

    Muhammed Ali was a saint of the antiwar and civil rights movement for having refused to register for the draft, essentially saying he owed the US nothing as a black man. And he is held up as a model of black grit and clean living, even as he became a dupe of the black muslim church who exploited him to make money and forced him to fight long after symptoms of permanent brain injury were apparent. With friends like the Black Muslims, who needs enemies? In the end, a group of sports loving white businessmen charitably worked to create endorsement deals to put him financially back in shape for his retirement.

    In the end, Ali was a lousy model for black youth, teaching them full throated high self regard based on nothing, the culture of dissing, and the imperative of settling meaningless arguments over who’s the best with violence.

    ***

    That comment was seconded by commenter ‘Triumph104′. I myself replied to it, but only to correct the record as to Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali and the Selective Service Administration. The most curious thing about that well-stated defense of this blog post by Steve Sailer is in who did not deign to reply to it: one Jonathan Revusky, of the Tarragona Revuskys. Had it escaped your notice, for these past fifty-some hours, Johnnie boy? Perhaps this reiteration of it, with its succinct summation of the ultimate point of Muhammad Ali’s actual salience in American cultural life, will induce you to tear into it, with your bulldog tenacity and pit bull ferocity (intellectually speaking, of course).

    When Steve Sailer himself tired of your monotonous growling, however, you did promptly reply to him:

    ***

    Uhh, yeah, actually, you’re quite right. I don’t typically “get it” here. I guess this is sort of “dog whistle” stuff.

    So I don’t get it because I’m not a dog.

    . . .

    Uhh, yeah, you understand your own point presumably. But I always figured that the point of writing was that the reader understand your point. That you understand your own point, in principle, goes without saying, no?

    Well, anyway, never mind… Don’t worry about me hanging out here too much. I find it’s a very mentally unhygienic sort of environment. These sort of clickbait articles and then all the people flocking here to rant about how beastly black people are.

    It’s all my fault really. I’ve got to develop more mental discipline, refrain from clicking on these sorts of things.

    ***

    Apparently, as a self-styled geek, and perhaps also as someone on the ASRS, your own English comprehension skills suffer a significant loss in deciphering interpersonal communication. When Steve remarked “I get it,” he was acknowledging– as should be obvious to any native English-speaking adult with a three-digit IQ who is not languishing on the aforementioned scale– that he understood the import of your constant complaint that you found this particular blog post to be inanely meaningless, along with most of the rest of Steve’s blog posts. He was not defending it by claiming that he himself understood it, “so there!”

    To date, and without reviewing the full tape, I cannot recall a single other commenter, here, who has seconded that complaint of yours (which, of course, you deny even was a complaint). To you, that merely confirms that we are all “dogs”– i.e., “RACISTS!”– who can hear Steve’s metaphorical “whistle” to come running, salivating at his malicious and malignant stereotypes about Blacks that you, as a righteous anti-racist and ally of all oppressed non-Whites, cannot hear yourself, but can infer, as all good anti-racists can, from the pack of rabid hounds racing by you to tear voraciously at Mr. Sailer’s pseudo-intellectual raw meat.

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  194. @prosecutemax
    Who's Trump's Sonny Liston then? Bill Kristol?

    Keen wit,my friend.Keen!

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  195. […] As the New York Times reported on Chicago’s latest Memorial Day Weekend: […]

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