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Mark Zuckerberg's Sister Speaks Power to Truth About How She Is Oppressed by Socrates
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From the Washington Post opinion section:

The problems with online ‘debate me’ culture

By Donna Zuckerberg, August 29 at 12:13 PM

Donna Zuckerberg is a Silicon Valley-based classics scholar and the author of “Not All Dead White Men.” She is editor in chief of the online classics publication Eidolon.

Does Dr. Donna still dye her hair blue?

Of course, there’s also something else of interest about Donna Zuckerberg. She’s the younger sister of America’s leading fan of the Emperor Augustus, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg.

Anyone who regularly expresses ideas on the Internet — especially women who express ideas critical of men — has encountered that bane of online discourse, the man who appears seemingly out of nowhere to insist on a debate. He disagrees with the sentiment expressed and is certain he can overpower the author with his superior logic and knowledge….

As the editor of an online publication that runs articles about the intersections of classical antiquity and the modern world, often from a feminist and progressive perspective, I’ve gotten my fair share of “debate me” challenges. Many of these have come after I began writing about far-right interest in ancient Greece and Rome in 2016. Blocking some of my would-be adversaries on Twitter seemed to just energize them — and convince them I was afraid to engage.

A call to debate may seem intellectual, even civilized. In theory, well-structured and respectful debates are an ideal opportunity to reach an audience that isn’t fixed in its views. In reality, however, most “debate me” types seem to view them mainly as a chance to attack their opponent’s credibility. Their model is not Lincoln and Douglas, but rather Socrates: By needling their interlocutors with rapid-fire questions, they aim to reveal, as they see it, their opponents’ ignorance and stupidity, and their own superior intelligence and logic.

My most memorable “debate me” involved a white-nationalist YouTube personality with a ridiculous ersatz Latin pseudonym (which I don’t want to share, since he doesn’t deserve the attention), who appeared in my Twitter mentions one day, absurdly insisting that I have called the classics inherently fascist. My actual, nuanced argument is that the long enmeshment of the classics and white supremacy, both in Nazi Germany and in the pre-Civil War American South, continues to inform how we understand the ancient Mediterranean, and that progressive classical scholars should discuss that legacy and confront it. …

It’s no surprise that someone like this, whom I ignored, would draw on Stoicism, which has emerged as the favorite philosophy both of corporate executives and of the far right. …

These modest men also identify with Socrates, the original “debate me” troll. The Platonic texts show Socrates pulling any number of Athenians into debates, and although some are eager to argue with him, others can hardly wait to escape him by the end of the dialogue. Plato’s “Euthyphro” concludes with Euthyphro insisting that he has to leave, while Socrates calls after him, complaining that they haven’t yet figured out the nature of piety. Many of the dialogues end when the interlocutor has been bludgeoned into submission and seems to find it easier to agree with Socrates than continue further — every “debate me” man’s dream.

After all, a debate isn’t a conversation

As everybody knows in 2019 a “conversation” is when you shut up and listen to Donna Zuckerberg-types talk.

… And whatever happened to my Latin enthusiast? His online presence has faded, and his followers complain about how difficult it is to find his videos because YouTube keeps deleting his channels. As Laurie Penny noted last year with respect to Milo Yiannopoulos, deplatforming white supremacists is a much more successful way to shut them down than insisting that “sunlight is the best disinfectant” and allowing them to air their hateful views in a structured debate setting.

… I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

 
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  1. Mr. Blank says:

    I would love to hear what Mark thinks of his smart-but-clueless sister. I bet he has some stories.

    • Replies: @SFG
    , @Dan Hayes
    , @J.Ross
  2. Several hundred (thousand? words to say: “Stop being mean and disagreeing with me! It’s yucky.” And we all know conservatives, nationalists, and race-realists, never, ever, get challenged or attacked online.

    Actually, come to think of it, maybe they don’t.

    They just get banned after someone like the distaff Zuck tattles on them.

  3. SFG says:
    @Mr. Blank

    1. She may have dirt on him.

    2. If, as Steve has suggested, his natural inclinations are to learn right (allowing for a love for immigration to give him cheap labor), he’s not going to dish on his *sister*.

  4. anon[112] • Disclaimer says:

    iSteveFans who think “only STEM matters” should reflect on the importance of “Donna Zuckerberg [who] is a Silicon Valley-based classics scholar and …. the younger sister of America’s leading fan of the Emperor Augustus, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg.”

    • Replies: @Digital Samizdat
    , @Realist
  5. If my recollection is correct, the Greeks killed Socrates, DZ is only proposing censorship.

    Great to see the progress civilization has made over the past 4000 years…

    • LOL: Kylie
    • Replies: @International Jew
    , @Lot
    , @J
  6. anon[112] • Disclaimer says:

    Some tried to warn us that this would happen if we let women, and then Joose, study classics.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    , @J.Ross
  7. “a white-nationalist YouTube personality with a ridiculous ersatz Latin pseudonym (which I don’t want to share, since he doesn’t deserve the attention)”

    Vox Day?

  8. I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

    People who refuse to engage with others have opted out of politics and should be ignored in return. We don’t have enough spare time or energy to fret about them at any length. One should “haul ass and bypass”, as Reinhold Niebuhr advised.

  9. Ever notice how some of the most spiteful, mean spirited women are the ones who have their father/brother/husband to thank for them having any measure of success?

  10. People reasonably intelligent people can discuss topics. Really smart people tend to have superior debate skills.

    Over credentialed mid wits get intimidated with people who challenged them intellectually, since Socrates, or earlier.

    Ms. Zuckerberg appears closer to lack wit than mid wit….. so which prefers banning to conversation.

  11. BB753 says:

    Socrates, the original “mansplainer”!

  12. Charon says:

    “I’ve come to realize that it’s much easier to have your opponents silenced than it is to counter their arguments with your own. After all, you might get shown up! And where’s the fun in that?”

  13. white-nationalist YouTube personality with a ridiculous ersatz Latin pseudonym

    That’s gotta be Vox Day/Popoli. You google their names together and the text of Donna’s book is the second result:

    … open white nationalist, as is Theodore “Vox Day” Beale, a science-fiction writer who runs a blog called Vox Popoli (sic) …

    He’s a writer and a blogger in her book but a YouTube personality in her article.

    • Replies: @Altai
    , @Mike Perry
  14. bgates says:

    that bane of online discourse, the man who….disagrees with the sentiment expressed

    I know, I know, it would be closer to her meaning to truncate that quote before “who”.

    [Awful men] seem to view [debates] mainly as a chance to attack their opponent’s credibility. Their model is not Lincoln and Douglas,

    O for the days when Lincoln and Douglas traveled Illinois to affirm and agree with each other.

  15. Dan Hayes says:
    @Mr. Blank

    Mr Blank:

    Don’t you get it?

    Mark’s controlling and oftentimes shutting down the discourse on a world-wide scale is what his jelly-bean sister is doing on a minute scale!

  16. J.Ross says:

    his followers complain about how difficult it is to find his videos because YouTube keeps deleting his channels.

    This is some real let-them-eat-cake stuff even before you remember who is saying it.
    Last time Donna was doing non-classical stuff, making public statements while on the Facebook board, she demanded that people just get over privacy because there would be none in the future.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Curle
  17. Anon[412] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    I had been ignoring Brexit, as I ignored Russia.

    But the other day I read this long piece, which gives a good history of the matter:

    Why Hasn’t Brexit Happened?
    https://www.claremont.org/crb/article/why-hasnt-brexit-happened-yet/

    Executive summary of the last part: The EU will win in any scenario that involves choplogic legalisms. So (my takeaway) the only way to escape is to break things and just quit. There will be a period of sulking and revenge by the EU, but normalcy will eventually return.

    The BBC has a chart that seems to suggest that if (by prorogation) MPs cannot act, then October 31 ends it.

    • Agree: jim jones
  18. Ibound1 says:

    Right – no conversation, no debate with bad MAGA men – ostracism!
    Isn’t that the word ? I’m not a “scholar” myself.

  19. Lagertha says:

    … I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

    Spoken like a true bullshit artist!

    Forget about embarrassing her brother, she embarrasses women who actually, also know the Classics! The fact that she is loathe to argue with men (or anyone) about what Socrates or Aristotle meant about whatever, makes her look like a wuss and worse, a phony. And, that she can’t handle the “debate-me trolls,” makes her look like a person who not only needs to be de-platformed herself.

    Her platform is only there because of the profound wealth of her brother. He must cringe every time she goes on a tirade against mostly, non-Jewish guys. She is her brother’s, Mark, personal AOC nightmare, chirping in his ear, day after day, and embarrassing him more and more as time goes on. I mean, guys who were lefties will vote for Trump to just tell these women to STFU. It is getting weirder and weirder.

  20. a Silicon Valley-based classics scholar

    That very phrase by itself evokes, well, this:

    • Replies: @Gilbert Ratchet
  21. J.Ross says:

    Interesting that she makes no mention of IF Stone’s arguments that Socrates had it coming because he had participated* in a thwarted dictatorial takeover and then demonstrated contempt for Athenian democracy at a time when it was physically threatened.
    Stone also attacks not so much Socrates as Plato’s accounts (which are almost all we have of him) for being one-sided. Of course Socrates wins every time. Without more firmly covering that ground, you leave the conclusion that Socrates was just that good, a conclusion perfectly compatible with Donna’s bootyblasted babywhining. You know, one way to avoid the problem of a one-sided after-the-fact account would be to have a real time, neutral discussion forum, such as Donna is here furiously running — well, segwaying away from.
    Also, feelings regarding Socrates were thoroughly mixed back when I wasn’t shadowbanned on the chans. Diogenes and his lentils leading by example were the chad alpha go-to admired philosopher, followed closely by tied Seneca and Marcus A.

    *Socrates held a minor office but did nothing in it, which may have been a kind of passive protest, or it might be that he was just lazy outside of debating.

  22. CAL2 says:

    My actual, nuanced argument is that the long enmeshment of the classics and white supremacy, both in Nazi Germany and in the pre-Civil War American South, continues to inform how we understand the ancient Mediterranean, and that progressive classical scholars should discuss that legacy and confront it. …

    Discuss and confront can only mean rewrite and remove to create a false, but SJW picture of the past.

    Nothing demonstrates the failure of the publish or perish mentality of American universities than this lunacy which demands constant novelty in fields that are mined out.

  23. songbird says:

    After all, a debate isn’t a conversation

    I have never understood the crazy but I think related statement that “film is a conversation.” Is that why they used a specula to prop Alex’s eyes open in A Clockwork Orange?

  24. Joseph A. says:

    What a loathsome creature.

  25. J.Ross says:
    @Mr. Blank

    My expectation would be like the later twist in “Eastern Promises,” that is, family values are alive and well with our betters, even if they appear to fight.

  26. istevefan says:

    As Laurie Penny noted last year with respect to Milo Yiannopoulos, deplatforming white supremacists is a much more successful way to shut them down than insisting that “sunlight is the best disinfectant” and allowing them to air their hateful views in a structured debate setting.

    … I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

    That passage says a lot. It’s a complete inversion of the Western worldview I was taught.

    • Agree: Charon, Cortes, GermanReader2
    • Replies: @Anonymousse
    , @guest
    , @Bill B.
  27. fish says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    OMG…….it’s Ferris Buellers sister!

  28. Anon[375] • Disclaimer says:

    If your argument falls apart during a debate, it’s because it’s a lousy argument.

    • Agree: GermanReader2
  29. She’s an ass but her “debater” is an ass too. He did too misconstrue her argument. Meanwhile, she misconstrues Plato’s arguments. (There being no text by Socrates to consult.)

  30. anon[369] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross

    That was probably one of his other sisters, Randi. She was involved with Facebook for awhile and eventually asked to leave (I assume). She was gaff prone and not too bright.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Reg Cæsar
  31. @anon

    Yes, we get a double whammy in her case. Both her sex and her tribe are screaming in her head “these goyboys are entirely, irredeemably and dangerously wrong about everything! You must correct them!”.

    • Agree: Herbert West
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  32. JimB says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Ever notice how some of the most spiteful, mean spirited women are the ones who have their father/brother/husband to thank for them having any measure of success?

    Donna Zuckerberg looks like a dental hygienist. My suspicion is that dentistry, practiced by Zuckerberg senior, runs deep in the family blood and that the world would be better off if the whole Zuckerberg clan, including little Mark and Donna, stuck to filling cavities, scaling plaque, and doing root canals instead of fitting muzzles to free thinkers.

  33. Got to wonder to the extent that Donna loathes BAP.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  34. @NJ Transit Commuter

    Yeah but we’re regressing fast, so hold on to your hat.

  35. Charon says:
    @James J. O'Meara

    Speaking of vox, this from ‘vox.com’ is being widely disseminated over the past day. From the annals of permissible–nay, promoted!–hate speech:

    A zillion-word polemic about how vile, hateful and racist old white people are. Why must we take care of them? Why not just kill them all off, like they deserve?

    https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/8/21/20694768/home-health-aides-elder-care

    I read the whole thing so you don’t have to. I’m willing to bet that it’s mostly if not entirely made up. Not as if anyone ever checks on these things.

  36. Puremania says:

    Oh my god, can you imagine being this woman’s dentist? “In theory, Dr., your suggestion of a thorough dental exam may seem medically reasonable, even healthy. In reality, however, you “observe-me” types are just looking for an opportunity to do rapid-fire x-rays as a way to reveal, as you see it, your patient’s infections and cavities.”

  37. … — especially women who express ideas critical of men — has encountered that bane of online discourse, the man who appears seemingly out of nowhere to insist on a debate.

    As a thought experiment here, what would happen if this man wrote a comment in direct reply to Rosie of unz.com? Would there be an explosion that would destroy the known Universe?

    Anyone… anyone … Physicist Dave?

    (Just joking around, Rosie!)

  38. @MikeatMikedotMike

    She should every day be thanking God she doesn’t much resemble her brother

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  39. J.Ross says:
    @anon

    How many sisters does this guy have and how are all of them kosher bimbos?

  40. @anon

    She was gaff prone and not too bright.

    How hard is it to get a gaff license in California? Are they allowed in workplaces?

  41. @Jack Henson

    How much does Donna Zuckerberg deep down loathe her big brother?

  42. Her attitude toward debate is the common girly attitude to talking about their personal problems. They aren’t looking for you to analyze things and suggest a practical solution. They just want you to listen sympathetically.

    • Replies: @Forbes
  43. J.Ross says:
    @anon

    Pretty sure Loeb (as in Loeb interlinear Greek and Latin translations) was Jewish. And the Jews can always say they were there.

    • Replies: @Nachum
  44. Man, I just read that last excerpt. This lady is far gone down the rat-hole of totalitarianism.

    “Pol Pot could have really used a gal like you, Donna.”

  45. @istevefan

    The last name should clue you in… this person is not a part of the western worldview except perhaps in their traditional role of antagonist

    • Agree: Mr McKenna
  46. @JimB

    Hmmm, do you think that was the original impetus for Facebook? Perhaps the idea was to be able to show off one’s bridge-work and removed plaque, rather than just the gourmet meals, cat toys, and bowel movements as it’s commonly used for now … far as I know, anyway, I’m not member in good standing.

  47. newrouter says:
    @International Jew

    Seeing the extra 2 tons makes a difference.

  48. Lot says:
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    It seems when Donna read the Apology, she was happy with the outcome.

    Pictured center: Obnoxious white guy who got what was coming to him.

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Rohirrimborn
    , @Ron Mexico
  49. L.D. says: • Website

    The original article on the WP features pictures of Alexandra Occasional Cortex and of the author, Donna Zuckerberg. The former is a poster girl for why women should be banned from politics, the latter is a poster girl for why women should be banned from Academia.

  50. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    It’s no surprise that someone like this, whom I ignored, would draw on Stoicism, which has emerged as the favorite philosophy both of corporate executives and of the far right. …

    It still amazes me that Tom Wolfe wrote about this in A Man In Full 10-15 years before it happened.

    • Replies: @James J. O'Meara
  51. Lot says:
    @Lot

    That reminds me of my Le Mort de Treyvoncles photoshop

  52. Lot says:
    @JimB

    “My suspicion is that dentistry, practiced by Zuckerberg senior, runs deep in the family blood”

    After the Facebook IPO Zuck gave his father $100 million. Dad didn’t retire though, he just really liked fixing teeth.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    , @JimB
  53. snorlax says:
    @Lot

    After the Facebook IPO Zuck gave his father $100 million.

    “Dad, this is to show I love you just as much as I love the Newark public school system.”

  54. Sbalfa says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    She has reptilian eyes like her brother.

    • Replies: @anon
  55. black sea says:

    Womansplaining:

    We need to have a conversation about why we won’t be having a debate about . . . well, anything.

    Oh, and in this conversation, you won’t be saying anything.

    Nod your head if you agree . . . or if you disagree. Or just nod your head and get it over with.

  56. Roger says:

    Wow, she just confirmed my suspicions.

  57. Anonymous[111] • Disclaimer says:

    [D]eplatforming white supremacists is a much more successful way to shut them down than insisting that “sunlight is the best disinfectant” and allowing them to air their hateful views.… I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

    Calvin and his Dad would disagree — but they lived in an era so far distant that we have only shadowy myths and fading legends about it.

    • Replies: @guest
  58. Nachum says:
    @J.Ross

    The greatest Jewish philosopher, Maimonides, is openly indebted to the Greek philosophers, and he’s not the only one. Rabbinic admiration of Greece- art, language, philosophy- goes back to the Talmud at least.

    I imagine Zuckerberg knows none of this. She has probably never cracked open a volume of Maimonides or the Talmud in her life, and has probably never even thought of them.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  59. J says: • Website
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Your recollection is correct. Athenians tried to escape obnoxious Socrates. They could have forbidden him to loiter in the marketplace and make a nuisance of himself, but they were too civilized for that. They could have exiled him, but it may have turned friendly cities against Athens. They had no choice but to make him drink poison. But it backfired, he was made a martyr of free speech.

    DZ should have surely voted for Socrates death.

  60. anon[111] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sbalfa

    She has reptilian eyes like her brother.

    David Icke knows.

  61. It’s odd, but Dr. Donna’s official CV somehow neglects to mention that she is also a Senior Research Fellow at the National Foundation for the Confirmation of Canards and Tropes.

  62. There’s nothing fragile about avoiding defense of your ideas in open debate. You might lose, and so give rhetorical ammunition to toxically masculine snowflakes.

  63. Mr. Anon says:

    If Mark Zuckerberg were a dentist, a doctor, or a bond trader, nobody would have ever heard of Donna Zuckerberg, she wouldn’t be writing op-eds for WaPo, and nobody would give a damn what she thinks.

    I already don’t give a damn what she thinks, except in so far as it illustrates what humorless, talentless feminists think.

  64. guest says:

    “As the editor of an online publication that runs articles on the intersections of classical antiquity and the modern world, often from a feminist and progressive perspective, I’ve gotten my fair share of ‘debate me’ challenges”

    There is literally no connection between the parts of this sentence. I could easily believe no one ever wants to debate such a person.

    By the way, we all hate know-nothing know-it-all Keyboard Warriors itchin’ ta pick a fight. You can just ignore them, you dumb professor.

  65. guest says:
    @Anonymous

    “Not sayin’ I’m against Free Speech, but we can’t have speech, ya know, runnin’ around all free-like. “

  66. guest says:
    @istevefan

    How exactly is Gay Jew Milo a “white supremacist?”

    Oh yeah, that’s just another term for the Whom of their Who/Whom.

  67. guest says:
    @James J. O'Meara

    The Red Indian white nationalist?

    I don’t see how “Vox Day” is ridiculous, unless you assume he actually thinks his is the voice of God. Which I doubt.

  68. @International Jew

    Somebody forgot to trap a husband until too late.

  69. @anon

    No. If you really believe in the humanities, then Zuck’s sister is the absolute last person you should reflect on.

  70. Anyone who regularly expresses ideas on the Internet — especially women who express ideas critical of men — has encountered that bane of online discourse, the man who appears seemingly out of nowhere to insist on a debate. He disagrees with the sentiment expressed and is certain he can overpower the author with his superior logic and knowledge….

    They want to challenge you to a debate using “logic and knowledge”? Where do these troglodytes come from! What’s wrong with just having a good, old-fashioned barroom brawl with broken bottles? That’s how we did it in my day.

    It’s no surprise that someone like this, whom I ignored, would draw on Stoicism, which has emerged as the favorite philosophy both of corporate executives and of the far right.

    Are we to assume from this big brother Mark (or is that Big Brother Mark?) is a Stoic?

    • Replies: @animalogic
  71. Cortes says:

    Who will win the playoff for Battle of the Bullshitters: Donna Zuckerberg vs Eric Cantona?

    Here’s Eric yesterday on top form, training for the Quickening (there can only be one):

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/30/eric-cantona-eternal-war-crime-king-lear

  72. @Steve Sailer

    No one would even know who she was without him, nor would she have ever had the platform, the money and the power to censor people who criticize her. That must make her resent him all the more, ironic isnt it? The other thing is he probably knows more about classics than she does to boot.

  73. deplatforming white supremacists is a much more successful way to shut them down than insisting that “sunlight is the best disinfectant”

    Jeez. How could anyone with intellectual pretensions write such a thing without irony. This chick wants to be Nero, not Cicero.

    I guess it’s also an admission that she lacks the rhetorical skills to make the case for whatever nonsense theories she is peddling.

  74. Altai says:
    @larry lurker

    Vox Popoli has very low penetration though. But Donna would like him, he autistically bans certain discussions or topics and is convinced that the arenas of maximum cultural import are badly written formulaic pulp space opera books and comic books. A bit like how Donna wants to ban discussion of certain topics and thinks the academic Classics is a vibrant part of the contemporary academic world instead of a largely self-contained mad house.

    The two of them are almost (Vox Popoli is famously highly religous) perfect representations of the central axis of most internet debate. I call this the Aspergers-BPD axis. GamerGate was a good example of a direct conflict of what is otherwise a kind of general battle for control of the internet narratives.

  75. It is to our detriment that so powerful a man– and one who seems a bit cracked himself– has this dopey a sibling.

    She’s going to devastate our classical education because she’s this awesome combination of bored, ignorant and full of power.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  76. … I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

    She’s a woman, with abilities and emotions ideal for raising children inside a family. For a woman such as statement means “do it this way or I make this marriage unworkable.” For a man, ” I’m not open to debating that topic further” is another way of saying “Push this and we fight”.

    She probably doesn’t know what she’s saying. That’s one reason men don’t play women’s games, and that men’s organizations fail when women participate, as do women’s organizations when men participate (MADD’s takeover by men, or for that matter the takeover of women’s families by the man-run but woman staffed “child protective services”, being examples).

    Counterinsurgency

  77. Aft says:

    My actual, nuanced argument is that the long enmeshment of the classics and white supremacy, both in Nazi Germany and in the pre-Civil War American South, continues to inform how we understand the ancient Mediterranean, and that progressive classical scholars should discuss that legacy and confront it. …

    I’ve never seen someone use so many words to say nothing. Her oh-so-nuanced argument is some actually smart people should go look at something because some other people said some stuff about it. Brilliant.

    That apple fell pretty far from the other one (creepy robot or not, he’s got to have a couple dozen IQ points on his whiny sister).

  78. @CAL2

    Thanks CAL2, couldn’t agree more.
    The quote you reference really is offensive. Two examples of so-called”emeshment” justifies such progressive attacks.
    That the Ancients simply didn’t think much in terms of “race” is no doubt beside the point. The point is to use the Nazi’s & their classical views etc to attack whites NOW.

  79. @Known Fact

    She’s probably thanking God in her quieter moments that she is indeed her brother’s sister, and not some dental hygienist in Dubuque.

    Grauniad: “When the academic, sister of Mark Zuckerberg, began exploring online antifeminism, she discovered far-right men’s groups were using classical antiquity to support their views.”

    • Agree: Ragno
  80. @Mister.Baseball

    She’s going to devastate our classical education because she’s this awesome combination of bored, ignorant and full of power.

    Classics were probably toast anyway, because of their reverence for things like virtue, courage, accomplishment, excellence and integrity. Things which we now know are suffused with White Male Privilege and antithetical to Diversity and Inclusion.

  81. @Digital Samizdat

    Stoicism & corporate executives ? WHAT ?

  82. I don’t think there is any value in debating these people – the SJWs. They’ll just get you Cancelled – and outside the USA you run the risk of being prosecuted for Harassment. Blog mockery (as done here) seems better – though even then they’ll declare it Harassment and try to get you Cancelled.

    Edit: Pretty amazing she compares her opponents to Socrates, and herself to his enemies who killed him for debating too much, though.

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  83. @J.Ross

    Hard to deny that Socrates was a real pain in the ass.

  84. Yes, well, those Romans knew what to do with Greeks. When all else fails, brute force prevails:

  85. @Reg Cæsar

    I love VDH’s response to this tagline. He calls himself a “San-Joaquin Valley based Classics Scholar”

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  86. @Lot

    The prominent archway in that painting is more roman than greek. I doubt any such archway existed in the Athens of Socrates.

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
    , @Reg Cæsar
  87. @Steve Sailer

    If Zuck ever delivers the doxx on BAP, her brother will pull ahead hard and fast as “most hated man” to Donna.

    Her output will be incredible as she insists she is not thinking about BAP/Mr. Darcy.

  88. Socrates didn’t pull people into debates. He engaged in ordinary chit-chat with them until they claimed to have expertise in some moral value, and only then did he begin using his famous method on them. Euthyphro, for example, claimed to have superior knowledge of piety.

  89. Hank Yobo says:
    @CAL2

    Silly me. I didn’t know that Gibbons and Braudel were card-carrying Nazis or Confederates.

  90. Realist says:
    @anon

    iSteveFans who think “only STEM matters”

    STEM matters most.

    FIFY

  91. The man she’s afraid to name is likely Quintus Curtius, a mostly self-taught (I believe) Latin scholar and stoic blogger and podcaster. He’s been associated with the manosphere, RooshV, etc.

    IIRC, Miss Zuckerberg went after him and others before anyone knew who she was. He didn’t just “appear in my mentions one day.”

    Here’s the man’s blog:

    https://qcurtius.com/

    • Replies: @Bill B.
  92. Ragno says:

    Zuckerberg ought to get down on her knobby knees to thank Zeus for patriarchal capitalism, which – unfortunately – assures her that so long as her brother has millions upon billions of dollars, she need never ever worry about being deplatformed…while she whispers into the ear of Big Bro, and Big Tech, pointing out who should be silenced next.

    Maybe Big Bro really should run for President; when you consider that not only would he lose, and resoundingly, but his sister would catapult into the Most Despised Woman in America, finally knocking Miz Hill’ry off her gargoyle-perch – it’s the closest we’ll have gotten to win/win thus far in this benighted century.

  93. Dr. X says:

    Zuckerberg, like most of the female academics I’ve had the misfortune of encountering, is a stupid fucking moron LARPing as a scholar.

    Socrates actually called for the equality of — indeed, the communism of — the men and women of the Guardian Class in The Republic.

    Aristotle, his pupil, thought this was absurd, and wrote in his Politics “The male is by nature superior, the female inferior.”

    History has proven that Aristotle got it right, and Zuckerberg has once again confirmed it.

  94. This calls to mind the previous discussion here about two competing forms of intellectual discourse: http://www.unz.com/isteve/intellectual-discourse-taking/

    Usually SJWs don’t acknowledge that their form of debate is a break from that of traditional scholars. Dr. Zuckerberg at least is doing us a favor by explicitly arguing against using intellectual discourse instead of just mindlessly crying foul.

    Of course, she won’t take this train of thought to its logical conclusion.

  95. @J.Ross

    Yeah, I was gonna mention (((Izzy Stone’s))) book about Soc deserving death. Between her and Stone, a pattern seems to be emerging. Maybe there really is a difference btw Athens and Jerusalem.

    Maybe someone should tell Donna that the Talmud academies borrowed their teaching methods (two Jews, three opinions) from the Greeks.

  96. Aryan Man replies:

    If [Leftism] were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible openness to evidence, they could not fail to receive any real truth which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that [Left]ists do not follow this honourable course, but cheat at their game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction.”

    ― H.P. Lovecraft, Against Religion: The Atheist Writings of H.P. Lovecraft

  97. Soc had met her kind before. In, I think, the Phaedrus, he comments that some people, when he has deprived them of some cherished notion, get so angry they try to BITE him.

  98. @Dave Pinsen

    Stoicism ALSO influenced a lot of Hellenistic Jews, including St. Paul. I mentioned Greek dialectic influencing the Talmud above, others have noted Maimonides. It seem that the lady, in her ignorance and blind hatred, is trying to out-Jew the Diaspora Jews themselves and return to the kind of goyim-pure theocracy of the Maccabees. Talk about atavism.

  99. She sounds like a roller derby queen scoring a few quick points and then motioning to cut off the jam. But methinks it’s all just a pathetic plea for more attention, even contrary attention.

  100. My most memorable “debate me” involved a white-nationalist YouTube personality with a ridiculous ersatz Latin pseudonym (which I don’t want to share, since he doesn’t deserve the attention)

    This is presumably a reference to the Floridian known as Augustus Sol Invictus. Which is his legal name, for the record.

  101. JimB says:
    @Lot

    After the Facebook IPO Zuck gave his father $100 million. Dad didn’t retire though, he just really liked fixing teeth.

    As one of the world’s richest men, Mark Zuckerberg has a lot of time on his hands. He should go to dental school, then open an office in the main Facebook building. He can offer free dental care to his employees, or he can torture his business rivals a la the Marathon Man.

  102. Forbes says:
    @James J. O'Meara

    My most memorable “debate me” involved a white-nationalist YouTube personality with a ridiculous ersatz Latin pseudonym (which I don’t want to share, since he doesn’t deserve the attention…)

    …but let me share it anyway…

    LOL.

  103. Forbes says:
    @International Jew

    She needs to push away from the sumo wrestler training table…

  104. Forbes says:
    @International Jew

    Absolutely!

    As my then-wife (now ex-) said to me while complaining about some dreariness–“I don’t want you to fix it, I want you to listen to me!”

  105. She is right about two things:

    1. Socrates’ way of arguing was a debate, not a discussion & if not exactly trolling, something close to it

    2. there is a connection between right-winger state of mind & exaltation of Greco-Roman civilization (although this is a complex subject)

    On the other hand, she is, judging from this, a typical ideologized creature not interested in truth, but in preaching her gospel (and shutting up potential opponents).

    There were & are great female classical scholars, but I don’t think she’s one of them.

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  106. @James J. O'Meara

    No, I think it was Quintus Curtius . She singled him out for attack in her book.

  107. @larry lurker

    No, I think it was Quintus Curtius . She singled him out for attack in her book. I don’t think she even mentioned Vox Day.

  108. Vinteuil says:
    @James J. O'Meara

    As Laurie Penny noted last year with respect to Milo Yiannopoulos, deplatforming white supremacists is a much more successful way to shut them down than insisting that “sunlight is the best disinfectant” and allowing them to air their hateful views in a structured debate setting.

    … I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

    So if The Sisterhood had been in control in Athens in 399 B.C., there would have been no trial, and no defense. Socrates would simply have been…removed from the scene, by any means necessary. Along with all his known admirers – especially Plato.

    No philosophy, no science, no civilization.

    The more openly these people reveal what they really think, the better.

  109. Vinteuil says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Socrates’ way of arguing was a debate, not a discussion & if not exactly trolling, something close to it…

    Totally disagree. “Trolling” is just stirring up trouble for its own sake. Socrates never trolls. He often says provocative things that he doesn’t quite believe – but only in pursuit of getting his interlocutors to see what he sees as the truth.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  110. Vinteuil says:
    @Rohirrimborn

    The prominent archway in that painting is more roman than greek. I doubt any such archway existed in the Athens of Socrates.

    If only Jacques-Louis David could have had you available as an historical advisor!

  111. Vinteuil says:
    @Simon in London

    Pretty amazing she compares her opponents to Socrates, and herself to his enemies who killed him for debating too much, though.

    No kldding -it’s pretty amazing.

  112. @Gilbert Ratchet

    I love VDH’s response to this tagline. He calls himself a “San-Joaquin Valley based Classics Scholar”

    At least folks get their hands dirty in that California valley.

  113. @Vinteuil

    We can dispense with modern concepts. Be as it may, Socrates was into debate, not a discussion. In most, though not all celebrated dialogs, he is not a seeker after truth. He knows the truth & he is trying to enforce his opinion (or knowledge, whatever) on others. “Parmenides” & a few other dialogs may be exceptions, but, generally-Socrates was more of a prophet disguised as a seeker/lover of wisdom than a philosopher in a more modest sense of the word.

    In that respect, he was not much different from other gurus like Heraclitus, Parmenides or Empedocles.

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  114. @Rohirrimborn

    The prominent archway in that painting is more roman than greek. I doubt any such archway existed in the Athens of Socrates.

    Are you steeped in stoa-tistics?

    Ben Orlin writes in Math With Bad Drawings that he’s disturbed that the “most ‘Gothic’ page” in 250 novels digitally examined by researchers was detected not through obvious clues like arch-way, but merely by counting pronouns.

    Interestingly, women are far more likely than men to use you in writing. There is some debate whether this is due directly to sex, or to choice of subject matter. (Women who write about engineering or geology don’t use you a lot; men who write weepy supermarket novels do.)

    But in that case, it’s indirect.

    As for “bad drawings”, here’s the ideal iSteve cartoon:

    And identity politics nuked, inadvertently:

  115. Curle says:
    @J.Ross

    In other words, YouTube, owned by Google, her brother’s putative competitor but in reality partner in monopoly seeking and political influencing, deplatformed someone she disagrees with.

    Wow!

  116. TheJester says:

    Donna seems to agree with my sister … as both of them voice the tenor of the times: “I know I’m right, so no goddammed man is going to tell me what to think or what to do!” End of discussion.

    BTW: Life did not turn out well for my sister. Life, as it were, just ignored her. She didn’t have the Zuckerberg’s soft cushion and tribal connections to fall back on.

  117. J.Ross says:
    @Nachum

    Or maybe she’s just really into the spirit of Hannukah.

  118. @Jack Henson

    If Zuck ever delivers the doxx on BAP….

    In the unlikely (and frankly distasteful) event that Zuck and BAP ever have any interaction, it will be for the sole and express purpose of formalizing Zuck’s utter submission to BAP.

    Anyone who can conceive of another outcome is certainly a moral degenerate, probably a dangerous lunatic, and should definitely be placed in preventive detention.

    • Replies: @Anon
  119. jb says:

    This was a perfect example of a bad faith upside-down opinion piece. It really had nothing to do with any sort of “debate me culture.” That was just the setup. The internet is and has always been full of idiot trolls. They don’t just challenge people like Donna Zuckerberg, they challenge everybody. You, me, each other, everybody. They have always been there, they will always be there, and they are easy to ignore.

    The trolls are only brought onto the stage to justify the last part of the piece, where we find out that: 1) the sister of the richest man in the world believes that the best way to deal with opinions she finds offensive is to have people like her brother silence them; and 2) she has no interest in talking with anybody who disagrees with her about this.

  120. Vinteuil says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    …he is trying to enforce his opinion (or knowledge, whatever) on others…

    When does Socrates ever “enforce” anything on anybody, you surprising man?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  121. @Vinteuil

    For instance in “Phaedo”, he discusses 4 arguments for & against immortality of the soul. Arguments are, as usual, rather weak & full of errors, whether pro et con. Then, near the end, he drops all pretenses & delivers a speech in which he describes visionary voyage of a post-mortem soul into equivalents of our Heaven & Hell, all crammed into “astronomy” that would fit better Dante, or Books of Enoch or any extra-physical mundus imaginalis one can find in classic scholarly works of Carol Zaleskie, Henry Corbin, Ioan Coulianu, Michel Hulin, Gregory Vlastos or Moshe Idel. Then, he reverts back to usual chattering, which is, now, evidently superfluous after his authoritatively pronounced epiphanies.

    He does so in other dialogs with myths.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Vinteuil
    , @Vinteuil
  122. @J.Ross

    Plato’s accounts (which are almost all we have of him)

    News to me.

    • Replies: @Aristophanes
  123. Donna Zuckerberg presumably knows far more than her average interlocutor about the Classics, and should find it child’s play to wipe the floor with their ill-informed arguments. But apparently not.

    My actual, nuanced argument is that the long enmeshment of the classics and white supremacy, both in Nazi Germany and in the pre-Civil War American South, continues to inform how we understand the ancient Mediterranean, and that progressive classical scholars should discuss that legacy and confront it. …

    It might inform how she understands the ancient Mediterranean.

    … I believe there is little point in engaging with these people — and I’m not open to debating that topic further.

    Less Socrates, more Caligula.

    • Replies: @gregor
  124. @Lot

    “Obnoxious white guy” Like Ozzy Osbourne, he was a corruptor of the youth.

  125. Anonymous[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @CAL2

    QUOTE: My actual, nuanced argument is that the long enmeshment of the classics and white supremacy … in the pre-Civil War American South …

    Ah yes – who could ever forget Scarlett O’Hara’s famous exchange with Rhett Butler about “War, Whiteness and τέλος in the Illiad“?

  126. Anonymous[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Socrates was a near contemporary of Chuang-Tzu. Perhaps they partook of similar stimulants.

  127. anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:

    Might as well try to have a fair and reasonable debate with ISIS Jihadists or some 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum crying and shouting:

    “I want, I want”

  128. Anon[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Anyone who can conceive of another outcome is certainly a moral degenerate, probably a dangerous lunatic, and should definitely be placed in preventive detention.

    The revelation is that BAP is Zuck’s alter ego. Zuckerberg has convinced himself that he is the culmination of the Iron Age man, that is, the Caesars. He conceives of himself as Augustus, but note that he has also named his daughter August, which would imply that he also plays the role of Julius Caesar, because he must conceive of himself as his own father figure; if he were any less it would diminish his self-importance. But Iron Age man is himself the metaphorical son of Bronze Age man, and so Zuck must incarnate and concretize this abstract father figure, so as to give himself a background. But at the same time Iron Age man must dominate, and what better way of showing that than to have your father involved in endless and inconclusive battles with your sister?

    (no, that wasn’t serious)

  129. gregor says:
    @James N. Kennett

    My actual, nuanced argument is that the long enmeshment of the classics and white supremacy, both in Nazi Germany and in the pre-Civil War American South, continues to inform how we understand the ancient Mediterranean, and that progressive classical scholars should discuss that legacy and confront it. …

    Nuanced. My. Ass.

    Greek and Roman civilization have been highly influential throughout Western Europe and America but they were not especially influential on Nazi Germany or the American South. She chooses those supposed examples not because of any careful consideration of the intellectual history but simply because those are the historical examples that Hollywood presents most frequently and hence the only historical examples the woke crowd is able to recognize.

  130. Anon[397] • Disclaimer says:

    Wealthy and powerful people who work iniquity will always lie about their motives, and that is what Donna is doing here: she is making excuses for Facebook’s attempt to rig elections, by painting all of the company’s censorship victims as fascists and bigots. This smear tactic is a desperate attempt at political damage control, after recent exposures of Facebook corruption:

    Facebook bans Trump campaign ad for “assuming gender identity”
    https://www.newswars.com/facebook-bans-trump-campaign-ad-for-assuming-gender-identity-report

    Facebook blocks viral political meme maker hours after site launch
    https://www.infowars.com/facebook-blocks-viral-pro-trump-meme-maker-hours-after-page-launch
    https://reclaimthenet.org/carpedonktum-meme-world-blocked-facebook

    Facebook whistleblower exposes shadow ban on conservative content
    https://worldtruth.tv/facebook-whistleblower-exposes-malicious-algorithm-to-shadow-ban-and-de-boost-conservative-content
    https://www.projectveritas.com/2019/02/27/facebook-insider-leaks-docs

    Facebook to Ban Users Who Share Infowars Content
    https://www.activistpost.com/2019/05/facebook-to-ban-users-who-share-infowars-content-unless-it-is-explicitly-condemning-it.html

    Snopes Now Has Power To ‘Shadowban’ Conservative Facebook Users
    https://newspunch.com/snopes-shadowban-conservative-facebook

    Facebook blocks pages with MILLIONS of subscribers after CNN reports ties with RT
    https://www.rt.com/news/451709-soapbox-backthen-wasted-suspended-facebook/

    SJWs Always Lie

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  131. Vinteuil says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I guess the word “enforce” doesn’t mean to you what it means to me.

  132. Vinteuil says:
    @Anon

    I always keep hoping that, some day, Vox Day will grow up.

  133. Vinteuil says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Sorry if I was too dismissive.

    Socrates’ arguments, in the Phaedo, for the immortality of the soul range from pretty bad to slightly promising.

    But “enforcement?” No way.

  134. Bill B. says:
    @istevefan

    When you cite Laurie Penny as an expert source you are really scraping the barrel.

  135. Bill B. says:
    @Ledford Ledford

    Yes you are right.

    Let me move on to your other false point where you said I unduly emphasize character and virtue. How can someone like yourself, who claims to be a classicist, say such a thing? Do you hate your field that much? Are you that ignorant of the classical tradition that you claim to be upholding?

    There are a great many classical writers, and one cannot speak for all of them in a few sentences. But are you actually going to try to claim, Ms. Zuckerberg, that an emphasis on character and virtue is not a thread that runs through a great number of classical authors? Are you so willfully blind that you refuse to see what is right before your eyes? Consider these examples, just to state a few…

    Do you want to know why I write? Because I love the subject matter, and I truly believe in its power to bring back what we have lost from our society. I venerate these classical and Renaissance works because I know how true their lessons are for real life. I use them as a source of moral inspiration, a guide to a better life, and as a vision for the elevation of the human spirit.

    You, on the other hand, use them as a punch line. You have no real feel for these works. If you did, you would never be able to miss the role of character and virtue in a great many classical and Renaissance works. In fact, I think that deep down, you despise these books. Why? They call attention to everything that you and your social justice warrior ilk are not: honorable, good, just, and fair-minded. Those who lack character and virtue hate nothing more than someone who talks about such things. You seek to shut people up who fail to toe your politically-correct line.

    https://qcurtius.com/2016/12/18/a-response-to-a-detractor/

    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  136. @Cagey Beast

    And once again the question is raised: Why did white men ever allow these people into their lands?

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