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From Wikipedia on the Beaker Culture that started spreading rapidly across Europe about 5,000 years ago:

Given the unusual form and fabric of Beaker pottery, and its abrupt appearance in the archaeological record, along with a characteristic group of other artefacts, known as the Bell Beaker “package”, the explanation for the Beaker culture until the last decades of the 20th century was to interpret it as the migration of one group of people across Europe.

However, British and American archaeology since the 1960s had been sceptical about prehistoric migration in general, so the idea of “Bell Beaker Folk” lost ground, although recent genetic findings lend renewed support to the migratory hypothesis. A theory of cultural contact de-emphasizing population movement was presented by Colin Burgess and Stephen Shennan in the mid-1970s.[29]

Under the “pots, not people” theory the Beaker culture is seen as a ‘package’ of knowledge (including religious beliefs and copper, bronze and gold working) and artefacts (including copper daggers, v-perforated buttons and stone wrist-guards) adopted and adapted by the indigenous peoples of Europe to varying degrees.

But today it turns out to have been People, Not Pots. Robert E. Howard proves once again to have had a better understanding of prehistoric Europe than cultural anthropologists.

From bioRxiv:

The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe

Iñigo Olalde, et al

doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135962
This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed

Abstract

Bell Beaker pottery spread across western and central Europe beginning around 2750 BCE before disappearing between 2200-1800 BCE. The mechanism of its expansion is a topic of long-standing debate, with support for both cultural diffusion and human migration. We present new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 170 Neolithic, Copper Age and Bronze Age Europeans, including 100 Beaker-associated individuals. … However, human migration did have an important role in the further dissemination of the Beaker Complex, which we document most clearly in Britain using data from 80 newly reported individuals dating to 3900-1200 BCE. British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion.

Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area.We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain’s Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.

See, the Russians are to blame.

 
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  1. If only we could identify contemporary descendants of that victim population, perhaps we could provide federal contract set-aside programs for businesses they own, or something.

    • LOL: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @Travis
    Europe should allow them to run Casinos on their tribal land. Stonehenge could have a HardRock Casino overlooking their burial grounds.
    , @markflag
    Contact Georgetown University that is now setting aside spaces for the descendants of slaves. Gonna devalue dat degree.
    , @Patriot
    Achilles, Maybe the Basques are the "original victims" in Europe? They appear to be an ancient, remnant people, driven to isolation and refuge in the Pyrenees Mts.
  2. Slightly OT, from later chapters of the island’s history:

    https://www.twitter.com/derekmhopper/status/862472280919506944

    • Replies: @backup
    Considering that the BB folk that colonised Great-Britain looked most similar to BB folks from the Lower Rhine/Netherlands according to the paper this chapter also comes from the same circle.
  3. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Probably mystifies most Americans, but a hoary old phrase beloved of English archaeologists and known to every schoolboy was ‘Long barrows = long heads, round barrows = round heads’.

    The explanation is that ‘barrow’ is the old English term for burial mound or tumulus, which litter the English countryside – and are, in the main, still intact after thousands and thousands of years. When archaeology first became established as a science, back in the day, it was noticed that the barrows could be divided into two groups, the ‘long’ pattern and the ’round’ pattern. The long barrows were the earliest and the skulls thus excavated were invariably dolichocephalic and surmised to be of Mediterranean provenance.
    By contrast, round barrows came later and seemed to have taken over the country as if by an invasion. The skulls contained therein were invariably brachycephalic.

    • Replies: @res
    Interesting. Thanks. I did a web search for that and most of the top hits were pre-1910.

    This excerpt from an 1899 (?) book elaborates a bit. After a ritual "debunking" (i.e. pointing out some exceptions) of the older view of course.

    Can you recommend any good references?
    , @CowtownSpike
    From The Hound of the Baskervilles, published in 1902, when Dr Mortimer first met Holmes:

    "You interest me very much, Mr. Holmes. I had hardly expected so dolichocephalic a skull or such well-marked supra-orbital development. Would you have any objection to my running my finger along your parietal fissure? A cast of your skull, sir, until the original is available, would be an ornament to any anthropological museum. It is not my intention to be fulsome, but I confess that I covet your skull.”

    Later in the tale:

    The other day—Thursday, to be more exact—Dr. Mortimer lunched with us. He has been excavating a barrow at Long Down and has got a prehistoric skull which fills him with great joy.
  4. Everyone is Russian.
    Only they don’t know it.

    • Replies: @Jake
    "Everyone is Russian.
    Only they don’t know it."

    That should be amended to: All Indo-European culture, including language, is 'Russian' in origin.

    That statement is true.
  5. Expansion of Beaker culture:

    Led to higher culture:

    Sorry.

    • LOL: 415 reasons
  6. You know what Steve ? I keep attempting to make a thoughtful and relevant post but just at the moment that I am almost done it vanishes like the last original thought you had . Splain that Negro .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL1m4__BUPs&lc=z12kg30jdu3xttazj04cg34qhueazr3ogys0k.1494470321671661

  7. I wanted to tell you an abridged version of the donut’s search for truth . Well find it on your own . Spiritual pain is the best guide to truth .

  8. Does the evidence mean (1) that the Neolithic people were bred out/absorbed into the population of the newcomers, or (2) that they were pushed off the territory/killed?

    • Replies: @Amasius
    Probably more the former. Aryans are franchisers, not genocidalists. Look at Alexander's empire, Rome, the Persian Empire. If they encountered resistance they'd crush it decisively, but really what they wanted to do was spread their culture and way of life. Their ingroup was permeable. That's why their linguistic footprint has proven permanent from Ireland to India, whereas brutal tribal empires like the Mongols, Huns, and Manchus were ephemeral.
    , @james wilson
    Since the Brits manged to retain 90% of their 5th century genome after the waves of Danes, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, and Normans hit them, the 10% Neolithic hit leaves them closer to Neanderthal fate. Very surprising.
    , @Travis
    the men were slaughtered , as their Y chromosomes were replaced by the invaders...while many Women survived as their mtDNA was passed on to future generations.
    , @BB753
    Both.
  9. We still didn’t make pots anywhere near as good as the Middle Jomon period in Japan. Bell Beaker pots are boring and uncreative as hell.

    • Replies: @wren
    Didn't the Jomon come from Siberia?

    Russians, everywhere you look.
    , @backup
    I'd be careful with talk like that. Last time some arrogant Brit spoke like that we swamped their island and reduced their ilk.
    , @tyrone
    merely a means to an ale my friend.
  10. BTW do you know who gets a big laugh from that story ? My current lady friend and my girl friend . While they are both amused for some reason they always find an excuse not to go on a picnic or camping trip with me . Go figure . Oh man pass that shit puulease .

  11. @Anon
    We still didn't make pots anywhere near as good as the Middle Jomon period in Japan. Bell Beaker pots are boring and uncreative as hell.

    Didn’t the Jomon come from Siberia?

    Russians, everywhere you look.

  12. The conquest of Britain by the Steppe people, who had something to say. They were of the view that it was better to burn out than to fade away.

  13. Not passing my posts is a macroagression byatch !!\

    Equally good IMNSHO

  14. Steve, when we were in England a couple years ago, we made sure to visit a particular museum specifically because it had artifacts of the Beaker Folk.

    They’ve been my favorite prehistoric group since I read Andre Norton’s Time Traders, in which the Beaker Folk play an important role, when I was a kid back in the ’60s.

    The one takeaway I got from the museum was that scholars seemed to think the beakers were for drinking beer or a similar beverage.

    I’m not quite sure what that says about all of us of European descent who might turn out to be descended from the Beaker Folk.

    Dave

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    The current front runner is Mead.
  15. A theory of cultural contact de-emphasizing population movement was presented by Colin Burgess and Stephen Shennan in the mid-1970s.[29]

    Just in time!

  16. @Opinionator
    Does the evidence mean (1) that the Neolithic people were bred out/absorbed into the population of the newcomers, or (2) that they were pushed off the territory/killed?

    Probably more the former. Aryans are franchisers, not genocidalists. Look at Alexander’s empire, Rome, the Persian Empire. If they encountered resistance they’d crush it decisively, but really what they wanted to do was spread their culture and way of life. Their ingroup was permeable. That’s why their linguistic footprint has proven permanent from Ireland to India, whereas brutal tribal empires like the Mongols, Huns, and Manchus were ephemeral.

  17. @Opinionator
    Does the evidence mean (1) that the Neolithic people were bred out/absorbed into the population of the newcomers, or (2) that they were pushed off the territory/killed?

    Since the Brits manged to retain 90% of their 5th century genome after the waves of Danes, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, and Normans hit them, the 10% Neolithic hit leaves them closer to Neanderthal fate. Very surprising.

    • Replies: @Travis
    the Normans , Anglos and Saxons were also decedents of the Bell Beakers...

    Megalithic structures like Stonehenge in Wiltshire, the Newgrange passage tomb in County Meath, Ireland, or the Callanish Stones on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland all likelihood built by neolithic men belonging essentially to haplogroups G2a and I2a. and no men with R1b (the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the British Isles. Today less than 1% of the British males have these once common neolithic Y chromosomes.

    But since the Bronze age 90% of men on the British Isles have been haplogroup R1b
    While the Anglos and Saxons and Normans were 50% R1b. Today 50% of males in France and Germany are R1b. Higher in Northern France and Western Germany.

    It is interesting that even today 90% of Irish males and 70% of the British are L21 a sub clade of R1b. This haplogroup is dated to about 2,700 BC. All males who are L21 have a common male ancestor who lived about 4,000 years ago.
  18. So Bronze Age Pervert is right, and there’s a bit of steppe barbarian in all of us.

    (I can’t remember which 20thC novel it was in which a character opines that the beer-drinking countries always beat the wine-drinking countries in a fight)

    • Replies: @Patrick Harris
    The vodka belt has a decent track-record against both the beer-swillers and the winos.
    , @dearieme
    "beer-drinking countries always beat the wine-drinking countries in a fight": except Rome, obvs.
  19. “If only we could identify contemporary descendants of that victim population”

    We can, to an extent. I’m one of them. The haplogroups, for the most part, tell the tale. The R haplogroups make up the majority of the Indo-Europeans, which were the Bell Beaker folks. Haplogroup I2 (mine) identifies the Hunter Gatherers who were the first Britons.

    “Does the evidence mean (1) that the Neolithic people were bred out/absorbed into the population of the newcomers, or (2) that they were pushed off the territory/killed?”

    Both. Male haplogroups are predominantly of Indo-European origin, while mitochondrial DNA, from women, is primarily from the Neolithic Farmers. At very least it was the dominant newcomers who got choice breeding privileges over the native population. As far as we can tell now, the Hunter Gatherers and Neolithic Farmers blended together peacefully, but the Indo-Europeans were a warrior based society, and undoubtedly were more formidable than the natives. In fact, most noble families in both Britain and Ireland today are descended from the Indo-Europeans.

    • Replies: @res
    Interesting. Thanks. Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1

    Can you draw any connections between haplogroup I2 (or any of the other haplogroups) and the groups described in Albion's Seed?

    Jayman goes into detail on a related topic: http://www.unz.com/jman/the-genetics-of-the-american-nations/
    but does not talk about haplogroups explicitly. I looked at Han, 2017 and they don't seem to talk about haplogroups either.

    P.S. I finally am getting around to reading Mary Chestnut (still in 1861 though). Thanks to you (and others here) for motivating me.
  20. @Achilles
    If only we could identify contemporary descendants of that victim population, perhaps we could provide federal contract set-aside programs for businesses they own, or something.

    Europe should allow them to run Casinos on their tribal land. Stonehenge could have a HardRock Casino overlooking their burial grounds.

    • Replies: @JohnnyGeo
    something like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyh1Va_mYWI
  21. @Opinionator
    Does the evidence mean (1) that the Neolithic people were bred out/absorbed into the population of the newcomers, or (2) that they were pushed off the territory/killed?

    the men were slaughtered , as their Y chromosomes were replaced by the invaders…while many Women survived as their mtDNA was passed on to future generations.

    • Replies: @backup
    No. BB in Britain was similar to BB on the Lower Rhine, hence no admixture. Maybe 10%. That wasn't merely due to suppresion. That hardly could not have happened through genocide. There must have been a neolithic collaps beforehand. I go for the Plague Hypothesis.
    , @backup
    A second thought is that true Bell Beaker burials from, say, Hungary vary widely in Steppe ancestry according to this paper. They really have a lot of interesting details.
  22. @Anonymous
    Slightly OT, from later chapters of the island's history:

    https://www.twitter.com/derekmhopper/status/862472280919506944

    Considering that the BB folk that colonised Great-Britain looked most similar to BB folks from the Lower Rhine/Netherlands according to the paper this chapter also comes from the same circle.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Which chapter?
  23. @Anon
    We still didn't make pots anywhere near as good as the Middle Jomon period in Japan. Bell Beaker pots are boring and uncreative as hell.

    I’d be careful with talk like that. Last time some arrogant Brit spoke like that we swamped their island and reduced their ilk.

  24. The Beakers collaborated with King Dlanod The Great to ensure his succession to the throne . We know this now from decades of anthropological research by NNC and other giants in that field .

  25. @Anonymous Nephew
    So Bronze Age Pervert is right, and there's a bit of steppe barbarian in all of us.

    (I can't remember which 20thC novel it was in which a character opines that the beer-drinking countries always beat the wine-drinking countries in a fight)

    The vodka belt has a decent track-record against both the beer-swillers and the winos.

    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    They themselves were beaten by the sake-sippers in 1905, who in turn were crushed by the beer-swillers in 1945.
  26. Wiemar looks positively straitlaced compared to the arsenal of “democracy” .

  27. Here’s lefty standup comedian Stewart Lee’s pro-immigrant Beaker Folk bit:

  28. Clearly, our greatest challenge is Beaker Privilege.

  29. “KNOW, oh prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars—Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Zamora with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-haunted mystery, Zingara with its chivalry, Koth that bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem, Stygia with its shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania whose riders wore steel and silk and gold. But the proudest kingdom of the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the dreaming west. Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen- eyed,sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.”—The Nemedian Chronicles

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    Ah... yes. Nemedian Chronicles. Primary textbook for first year students at Robert Edward Howard School of Anthropology.

    Funded by King Conan the First.

  30. @Anonymous Nephew
    So Bronze Age Pervert is right, and there's a bit of steppe barbarian in all of us.

    (I can't remember which 20thC novel it was in which a character opines that the beer-drinking countries always beat the wine-drinking countries in a fight)

    “beer-drinking countries always beat the wine-drinking countries in a fight”: except Rome, obvs.

    • Replies: @Patrick Harris
    They had a good run, but did eventually succumb to beer-drinkers. But then the conquering beer-drinkers all settled down and became wine-drinkers. It's the great circle of ethanol.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    I was waiting for that, but I don't think anyone knows what the Ancient Britons drank. Hops weren't around till mediaeval times. Does anyone know if the Britons drank ale?

    On assimilation vs extermination - kill the men and take the women was standard in those days I think, still is in some cultures. There's a reason why more women than men find the idea of "helping the poor refugees" attractive - Whiskey bangs on about little else.

    As Churchill said of the Saxon invasions "we may cherish the hope that somewhere a maiden's cry for pity, the appeal of beauty in distress, the lustful needs of an invading force, would create some bond between victor and vanquished".
  31. So, once again they are discovering that culture is downstream from genetics.

    Ie, a cultural practice sweeps through a population once there is genetic support for it.

  32. OT

    The Guardian (and some US group) looks at the “well-paid yet poor” in Silicon Valley. It’s like we are on one side of a silvered window, and while we can see them, they can’t see us – no mention of immigration, or H1B staff. And while the main thrust of the piece is “you’ll feel poor if surrounded by those much richer than you”, IMHO anyone who has to work three jobs, or finds that mortgage+childcare = 80% of income, is objectively poor, at least as far as disposable income goes.

    There’s also plenty for a Tomassi or Dalrock to get into, let alone an Affordable Family Formation guru

    “Now in her mid-40s, she would like to have a child but “would never consider actually doing so, as I have no resources”. Part of the problem is her personal debt. Her credit card debt, for instance, equals $27,000. This all began because for years, she was making less and was unmarried.

    “I was living by myself,” she says, “choosing to live on the Upper West Side,” an affluent area of Manhattan: even though the rentals in the area were unaffordable, the costs associated with moving were also prohibitive. “I wasn’t going to never buy clothes or never go out or never go on vacation. I’d just say ‘screw it’ and made a decision to put it on a credit card.””

    https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/may/11/outclassed-neighbors-income-happiness

    And on BBC Radio Four, Hacking The Unconscious, not a training manual for a conquering steppe barbarian but an entire series devoted to marketing/advertising. The enthusiastic presenter seems a bit like the City guys who look on Liar’s Poker or Wolf of Wall Street as an instruction manual rather than a cautionary tale, but Steve may find it of interest. Geoffrey Miller was in today’s episode and there’s a lot of concepts like social proof flying around.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pn983

    • Replies: @Bill P

    The Guardian (and some US group) looks at the “well-paid yet poor” in Silicon Valley. It’s like we are on one side of a silvered window, and while we can see them, they can’t see us – no mention of immigration, or H1B staff. And while the main thrust of the piece is “you’ll feel poor if surrounded by those much richer than you”, IMHO anyone who has to work three jobs, or finds that mortgage+childcare = 80% of income, is objectively poor, at least as far as disposable income goes.

    There’s also plenty for a Tomassi or Dalrock to get into, let alone an Affordable Family Formation guru
     
    Money has more to do with social dominance than it does material well-being; although the two are connected, the latter proceeds from the former. It has always been that way.
  33. Archaeology needs to sever its ties with cultural anthropology and start turning back 50 years of decline.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Too many "nice white ladies" and cultural marxists in that field, yep!
  34. @Opinionator
    Does the evidence mean (1) that the Neolithic people were bred out/absorbed into the population of the newcomers, or (2) that they were pushed off the territory/killed?

    Both.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Just as you and Travis write, this is nearly always the case; invaders don't destroy or discard the women of conquered peoples any more than they would other serviceable winnings such as cattle, tools, or stored crops. It may seem misogynistic to think of females as chattel, but for 99.999999% of history they were. And, come the apocalypse, they almost certainly shall be again.
    , @backup
    Neither actually. If invaders kill men, they confiscate women. That invariably leads to genetic changes. However, the paper states clearly that the colossal genetic turnover in Britain remained the same until deep into the Bronze Age.
  35. So, the British (i.e. the people who are to blame for Brexit) are basically a Putinist plot avant la lettre designed to undermine democracy. Don’t their leaders have not just the right but the duty to dissolve them and provide a more polite and reliable people instead?

  36. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    OT:

    Chinese caregivers sue alleged California birth tourism center, citing low wages and unpaid overtime

    http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/10/chinese-caregivers-sue-alleged-birth-tourism-center-citing-low-wages-and-unpaid-overtime/

    Workers hired to care for pregnant Chinese women who traveled to give birth on American soil are suing an alleged birth tourism center, citing unfair wages and working conditions.

    In a lawsuit filed in Orange County Superior Court, six Chinese immigrant caregivers, including two from Orange County, say the Xin Xi Du Month Center forced them to work more than 70 hours a week while paying less than minimum wage and withholding overtime.

    Southern California is home to a cottage industry for so-called birth tourists who travel here from China to give birth so their babies will have instant U.S. citizenship under the 14th Amendment.

    I hate to say anything critical of increased numbers of Chinese immigrants because they’re probably the best of the bunch we’re getting.

  37. Human history, red in tooth and claw.

    • Agree: Charles Pewitt
  38. Archaeology is just a form of decriminalized grave robbery, and our museums are just High Church comicons where Darwinian autists go around larping as experts and pretending that, somewhere in the past, their fantasies actually existed.

    • Replies: @Moshe
    Intelligent Dasein believes in a literal invisible Man-God who Chose Trump and therefore we must trust him (not Slick Willy or Obama though of course). And he also believes in a literal devil.

    And HE has the lowest opinion (as referenced above) of what he calls "darwinists".

    I don't think it's rude calling him and his kind out on this, I think it's mean.

    Never go full retard, dude.
  39. They’re using the magic word “migration”. So it wasn’t a violent, un-PC “invasion”, it was a peaceful, culturally enriching PC “migration”. That explains it.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @prole
    Just as Hernan Corte and the other conquistadors "migrated" to New Spain and South America, etc..
  40. @Anonymous
    Probably mystifies most Americans, but a hoary old phrase beloved of English archaeologists and known to every schoolboy was 'Long barrows = long heads, round barrows = round heads'.


    The explanation is that 'barrow' is the old English term for burial mound or tumulus, which litter the English countryside - and are, in the main, still intact after thousands and thousands of years. When archaeology first became established as a science, back in the day, it was noticed that the barrows could be divided into two groups, the 'long' pattern and the 'round' pattern. The long barrows were the earliest and the skulls thus excavated were invariably dolichocephalic and surmised to be of Mediterranean provenance.
    By contrast, round barrows came later and seemed to have taken over the country as if by an invasion. The skulls contained therein were invariably brachycephalic.

    Interesting. Thanks. I did a web search for that and most of the top hits were pre-1910.

    This excerpt from an 1899 (?) book elaborates a bit. After a ritual “debunking” (i.e. pointing out some exceptions) of the older view of course.

    Can you recommend any good references?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Only what I learned as a 12 year old during school history lessons.
    , @Bundang Social Club
    Here's a nice article from 1897 that gives the then-Current Wisdom on the population history of the British Isles. It's pretty astonishing that you could learn more about this stuff from Popular Science in 1897 than in 1997:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eiIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=Long+barrows+%3D+long+heads,+round+barrows+%3D+round+heads&source=bl&ots=bsXqRvsjRW&sig=eSt4miJFGPVfeIO4uj5Fex6dNjA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw2a6BmOfTAhVj6YMKHWgxCIMQ6AEIQjAI#v=onepage&q&f=false

    The whole issue is an interesting read. Some of the articles:

    ARE THERE PLANETS AMONG THE STARS?

    ANIMATED PICTURES.

    THE SCIENTIFIC SPIRIT IN KIPLING'S WORK.

    PRINCIPLES OF TAXATION.

    THE FEAR OF DEATH.

    THE TEACHING OF APPLIED SCIENCE.
    -About how the Germans rushed out to a lead in chemistry despite much of the basic research being done in France and Britain.

    THE LIFE HISTORY OF SCIENTIFIC IDEAS.

    SKETCH OF JOSEPH PRESTWICH
    -Only for the first line: "SIR JOSEPH PRESTWICH was, at the time of his death, the oldest of British geologists."



    And the letter from the "Editor's Table" is a pretty impressive summary of the scientific achievements of the 19th century, ending on the down note that, in the future, their descendants might well be like the post-technological, post-literate Eloi from the Time Machine:


    "AS the nineteenth century draws to its close there is no slackening in that onward march of scientific discovery and invention which has been its chief characteristic...

    ...there is a tendency, which we think is already beginning to be well defined, to effect a radical differentiation between those who are concerned in carrying out the work of the world as thinkers and inventors and those who are only concerned in using the improved appliances placed in their hands. Some of our readers will remember the horribly grim development suggested in Mr. H. G. Wells's fantastical romance..."
     
    Is there any doubt that the Belle Epoque was Peak Western Civilization?
  41. @Anonymous Nephew
    OT


    The Guardian (and some US group) looks at the "well-paid yet poor" in Silicon Valley. It's like we are on one side of a silvered window, and while we can see them, they can't see us - no mention of immigration, or H1B staff. And while the main thrust of the piece is "you'll feel poor if surrounded by those much richer than you", IMHO anyone who has to work three jobs, or finds that mortgage+childcare = 80% of income, is objectively poor, at least as far as disposable income goes.

    There's also plenty for a Tomassi or Dalrock to get into, let alone an Affordable Family Formation guru


    "Now in her mid-40s, she would like to have a child but “would never consider actually doing so, as I have no resources”. Part of the problem is her personal debt. Her credit card debt, for instance, equals $27,000. This all began because for years, she was making less and was unmarried.

    “I was living by myself,” she says, “choosing to live on the Upper West Side,” an affluent area of Manhattan: even though the rentals in the area were unaffordable, the costs associated with moving were also prohibitive. “I wasn’t going to never buy clothes or never go out or never go on vacation. I’d just say ‘screw it’ and made a decision to put it on a credit card.”"
     

    https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/may/11/outclassed-neighbors-income-happiness


    And on BBC Radio Four, Hacking The Unconscious, not a training manual for a conquering steppe barbarian but an entire series devoted to marketing/advertising. The enthusiastic presenter seems a bit like the City guys who look on Liar's Poker or Wolf of Wall Street as an instruction manual rather than a cautionary tale, but Steve may find it of interest. Geoffrey Miller was in today's episode and there's a lot of concepts like social proof flying around.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pn983

    The Guardian (and some US group) looks at the “well-paid yet poor” in Silicon Valley. It’s like we are on one side of a silvered window, and while we can see them, they can’t see us – no mention of immigration, or H1B staff. And while the main thrust of the piece is “you’ll feel poor if surrounded by those much richer than you”, IMHO anyone who has to work three jobs, or finds that mortgage+childcare = 80% of income, is objectively poor, at least as far as disposable income goes.

    There’s also plenty for a Tomassi or Dalrock to get into, let alone an Affordable Family Formation guru

    Money has more to do with social dominance than it does material well-being; although the two are connected, the latter proceeds from the former. It has always been that way.

  42. How in the heck did Steppe people acquire the maritime technology to cross the Channel or sail the North Sea?

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    "How in the heck did Steppe people acquire the maritime technology to cross the Channel or sail the North Sea?"

    IIRC until about 8,000 BC England was connected by a land bridge to le Continent and before then you could walk or ride. Rising sea levels after the last ice age destroyed this, and as the land conformation meant different tide times for the "Atlantic side" and "North Sea side" the erosion must have been fierce.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel#Geological_origins.3B_giant_waterfalls_and_catastrophic_floods

    But bronze age boats existed. The technology was doubtless acquired by trial and error, and boatbuilders were probably also 'test pilots'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Bronze_Age_Boat
  43. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The far back ancient times really had a large flux of migration and diversity going on. But what more and more seems to be is that it happened between neighboring regions with ethnic/cultural developing tribes ending up creating the ancient productive societies.
    .
    Nowadays is basically bringing people from the most remote places on Earth, each one of them with an ethnic/cultural identity that won’t fit in the host nation. Societies are already defined, but those with the globalist agenda (believing it sincerely or not) still push this nonsense for their own benefit.
    .
    By taking remnants of native european groups like the Basque or Sami, one can suppose europeans before steppe tribes were already white. Steppe people mostly came from Anatolia or the russian stepes, close to the Caucasus and Central Asia, where a lot of Proto-Indo-Iranian tribes could be found, the farthest from Europe ancient immigration seemed to come. They weren’t nordic white (being a nomad/semi-nomad from the steppes means being under the sun all the time), but by the way their blood ended up mixing with native europeans and comparing the result of that (the ancient indo-european we know) with the recent population means they weren’t that far genetically/phenotypically. Also, some of the steppe tradition seems to have mixed with the farmer tradition smoothly. After that the sedentary population would grow in number and late steppe people coming to Europe would be less in number than their ancestors and would be easily assimilated by the people there, only leaving their name and language behind, maybe without changing much was was already changed.
    .
    But then, it only happened in an long lost time where societies weren’t developed, resources and land were plenty and the best matching tribes could create the most stable societies, not too “far away” it seems. After that societies developed mostly monolithically and people now can trace their nation’s ancestry clearly.

  44. Props for the REH reference, Steve! Keep up the good work.

    That said, here are some Howard quotes to “migrate”/replace that Milius/Temujin thingie:

    “Not alone did the Sword People come or dwell in Britain. The River People were before us and the Wolf People came later. But they were Aryans like us, light-eyed and tall and blond. We fought them, for the reason that the various drifts of Aryans have always fought each other, just as the Achaeans fought the Dorians, just as the Celts and Germans cut each other’s throats; aye, just as the Hellenes and the Persians, who were once one people and of the same drift, split in two different ways on the long trek and centuries later met and flooded Greece and Asia Minor with blood.”

    “They were workers in flint and are known to anthropologists as men of the Neolithic or polished stone age. Relics of their age show plainly that they had reached a comparatively high stage of primitive culture by the beginning of the bronze age, which was ushered in by the ancestors of the Celts…”

    ” ‘Then,’ and his voice thrilled with rage and hate, until it seemed to reverberate through the cavern, ‘then the Celts came… We were driven out. They enslaved us. They drove us into the forest. Some of us fled into the mountains of the west. Many fled into the mountains of the north.’ “

  45. Hill Farmer’s Blues by Mark Knopfler

    I’m going into Tow Law

    For what I need

    Chain for the ripsaw

    Killer for the weed

    The dogs at the back door

    Leave him be

    Don’t feed him jack

    And don’t wait up for me

    Tow Law is up Yorkshire way in England. Maybe the hill farmer has the blues because he has ancestral memories of his continental past. In the song by Knopfler he has the blues because of this: “Behind my back Lord, you made a fool of me.”

    Maybe all the people in Britain are odd because they are now on a big island instead of a continent and they have visions of where they were before. I am glad the British got control of America instead of any of the other continental powers.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    A bit further North in Durham. Law is a dialect term applied to high moorland and mountains in the Far North East of England. I was there when it still had a colliery.

    Dire Straits was a Geordie (North East) band.

  46. • Replies: @syonredux
    How deplorable....

    In addition to interpreting world history, the decorators of the Library of Congress also attempted to illustrate cutting-edge science. That resulted in one of the stranger features of the Jefferson Building: a series of 33 faces on the outdoor keystones of the building representing the world’s primary races as determined by Smithsonian scientist Otis T. Mason. These so-called “ethnological heads” were modeled on his collection of “authentic, life-size models, chiefly of savage and barbarous peoples,” boasted the “Handbook of the Library of Congress” in 1897. Today, they stand as an unintentional monument to the folly of “scientifically” categorizing races, which led to eugenics and other horrors.
     
  47. @dearieme
    "beer-drinking countries always beat the wine-drinking countries in a fight": except Rome, obvs.

    They had a good run, but did eventually succumb to beer-drinkers. But then the conquering beer-drinkers all settled down and became wine-drinkers. It’s the great circle of ethanol.

  48. @Flinders Petrie
    Archaeology needs to sever its ties with cultural anthropology and start turning back 50 years of decline.

    Too many “nice white ladies” and cultural marxists in that field, yep!

  49. @King Kull
    "KNOW, oh prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars—Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Zamora with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-haunted mystery, Zingara with its chivalry, Koth that bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem, Stygia with its shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania whose riders wore steel and silk and gold. But the proudest kingdom of the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the dreaming west. Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen- eyed,sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."—The Nemedian Chronicles

    Ah… yes. Nemedian Chronicles. Primary textbook for first year students at Robert Edward Howard School of Anthropology.

    Funded by King Conan the First.

  50. @res
    Interesting. Thanks. I did a web search for that and most of the top hits were pre-1910.

    This excerpt from an 1899 (?) book elaborates a bit. After a ritual "debunking" (i.e. pointing out some exceptions) of the older view of course.

    Can you recommend any good references?

    Only what I learned as a 12 year old during school history lessons.

    • Replies: @res
    I wonder if they still teach that? Meant both as a serious question and a (possible) joke.
  51. Speaking of Science, Real and Fake, here’s a tweet reproducing an advertisement for a talk to be given by the President Elect of the American Sociological Association, Eduardo Bonilla-Silva:

    The ideology posturing as science is bad enough, but this buffoon thinks that a meteorologist is someone who studies meteors.

    Again, President-Elect of the American Sociological Association.

    • LOL: res
    • Replies: @Florida trial witness
    That's real retarded, sir.
  52. @dearieme
    "beer-drinking countries always beat the wine-drinking countries in a fight": except Rome, obvs.

    I was waiting for that, but I don’t think anyone knows what the Ancient Britons drank. Hops weren’t around till mediaeval times. Does anyone know if the Britons drank ale?

    On assimilation vs extermination – kill the men and take the women was standard in those days I think, still is in some cultures. There’s a reason why more women than men find the idea of “helping the poor refugees” attractive – Whiskey bangs on about little else.

    As Churchill said of the Saxon invasions “we may cherish the hope that somewhere a maiden’s cry for pity, the appeal of beauty in distress, the lustful needs of an invading force, would create some bond between victor and vanquished”.

  53. [M]igration…replaced >90% of Britain’s Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years….

    Pffft; that’s unimpressive. Migration from Asia and Europe is currently on set to handily replace one hundred per cent of Britain’s gene pool within a few decades, or perhaps a single century on the outside (the process being accelerated beyond normal generational limits by murder from the invaders and genetic suicide by the autochthonous…).

    On a less depressing and less sardonic note, this stuff is yet more evidence supporting the theory it was peoples from the Pontic steppes, as great innovators at mining and smelting, who subsequently exerted an enormous influence on surrounding regions.

  54. @candid_observer
    Speaking of Science, Real and Fake, here's a tweet reproducing an advertisement for a talk to be given by the President Elect of the American Sociological Association, Eduardo Bonilla-Silva:

    https://twitter.com/RealPeerReview/status/862404791548338176

    The ideology posturing as science is bad enough, but this buffoon thinks that a meteorologist is someone who studies meteors.

    Again, President-Elect of the American Sociological Association.

    That’s real retarded, sir.

  55. @Anon
    We still didn't make pots anywhere near as good as the Middle Jomon period in Japan. Bell Beaker pots are boring and uncreative as hell.

    merely a means to an ale my friend.

  56. Most of britain are BASQUE,nothing to do with steppe peoples and are related to the pharoahs,dont be so self hating, and pathetic the only aryan heritage about you is the language.

  57. @Opinionator
    How in the heck did Steppe people acquire the maritime technology to cross the Channel or sail the North Sea?

    “How in the heck did Steppe people acquire the maritime technology to cross the Channel or sail the North Sea?”

    IIRC until about 8,000 BC England was connected by a land bridge to le Continent and before then you could walk or ride. Rising sea levels after the last ice age destroyed this, and as the land conformation meant different tide times for the “Atlantic side” and “North Sea side” the erosion must have been fierce.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel#Geological_origins.3B_giant_waterfalls_and_catastrophic_floods

    But bronze age boats existed. The technology was doubtless acquired by trial and error, and boatbuilders were probably also ‘test pilots’.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Bronze_Age_Boat

  58. @BB753
    Both.

    Just as you and Travis write, this is nearly always the case; invaders don’t destroy or discard the women of conquered peoples any more than they would other serviceable winnings such as cattle, tools, or stored crops. It may seem misogynistic to think of females as chattel, but for 99.999999% of history they were. And, come the apocalypse, they almost certainly shall be again.

  59. res says:
    @RebelWriter
    "If only we could identify contemporary descendants of that victim population"

    We can, to an extent. I'm one of them. The haplogroups, for the most part, tell the tale. The R haplogroups make up the majority of the Indo-Europeans, which were the Bell Beaker folks. Haplogroup I2 (mine) identifies the Hunter Gatherers who were the first Britons.


    "Does the evidence mean (1) that the Neolithic people were bred out/absorbed into the population of the newcomers, or (2) that they were pushed off the territory/killed?"

    Both. Male haplogroups are predominantly of Indo-European origin, while mitochondrial DNA, from women, is primarily from the Neolithic Farmers. At very least it was the dominant newcomers who got choice breeding privileges over the native population. As far as we can tell now, the Hunter Gatherers and Neolithic Farmers blended together peacefully, but the Indo-Europeans were a warrior based society, and undoubtedly were more formidable than the natives. In fact, most noble families in both Britain and Ireland today are descended from the Indo-Europeans.

    Interesting. Thanks. Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1

    Can you draw any connections between haplogroup I2 (or any of the other haplogroups) and the groups described in Albion’s Seed?

    Jayman goes into detail on a related topic: http://www.unz.com/jman/the-genetics-of-the-american-nations/
    but does not talk about haplogroups explicitly. I looked at Han, 2017 and they don’t seem to talk about haplogroups either.

    P.S. I finally am getting around to reading Mary Chestnut (still in 1861 though). Thanks to you (and others here) for motivating me.

    • Replies: @RebelWriter
    " Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?"

    More or less. There were definitely multiple migrations, as we know from recorded history. Prehistorically we have the archaeological record, and now DNA. The DNA record is in the infant stage, and we learn more every day. For instance when Cambridge began the British DNA Project, the first take is that there was no great migration of Celtic people to the British Isles, and that Celtic was a language and culture of trade, but not a group of people. Now we've come full circle and the invasion is confirmed. There's still a lot more to be learned. For instance the Druids. Why was this religion peculiar to Britain, and not found among Celtic cultures of continental Europe? Was it a holdover of the earlier populations? I tend to think so, as Stonehenge and other such megalithic structures are rarely found outside of Britain, and these predate the Indo-Europeans.

    The specific subclade of I2 to look at is I2a1b, L161.1, sometimes additionally identified as "Isles," with an Isles A, B, C, and D. It is found almost nowhere else but in the British Isles, and some parts of Germany. They originated in the Balkans, where there was a Glacial Refuge, which allowed pockets of people to survive the Ice Ages of the Glacial Maximums. During a glacial minimum they spread out, mostly to Central and Eastern Europe, the Italian Peninsula, and the Island of Sardinia. Another group kept going, and crossed to Britain via Doggerland, the land bridge that existed between continental Europe and Britain. They crossed over to Ireland at some point, and colonized it, too. My branch of this haplogroup divided from the main line some 6,700 years ago in Britain.

    There were later glacial maximums, and there are differing theories about the first settlements of modern humans. Some people think the earliest settlements died out, and it took more than one attempt. However, they were the first, and for a time, the only modern humans in Britain. It's thought they existed in scattered small family groups, and followed the deer herds. They are sometimes referred to as the Deer Hunters. If you're interested, this link takes you to a site where a lot of the current theories are shown in an interesting and entertaining format: http://s168543378.onlinehome.us/z/L-161_Timeline%20.html

    As to your question about the people written about in Albion's Seed, they were present among all four groups to a small extent. This haplogroup accounts for only about 1% to 2% of the men of the British Isles today, vs. 80% to 90% for R1b. R1b-L21 is now considered a definite, but not the only Haplogroup to be identified as Celtic. There are R1b (and R1a) lineages in every other group to invade Britain, right up to and including the Normans. As they are such a small group of people, I can understand why there are largely ignored, except for being the first. Outside of the megaliths of ancient Britain, and their DNA, they've left no trace of themselves on the historic record.

    They survived in small pockets all over Britain. Looking at the results of the I2a Haplogroup Project at FTDNA, most descendants today are found in Scotland, then England, then Ireland. They were not Celtic, or Anglo-Saxon, nor Dane; they adopted the culture of the dominant group, and survived.

    Enjoy your Mary! I know I did. She was definitely a woman, and an entertaining writer.
  60. @Anonymous
    Only what I learned as a 12 year old during school history lessons.

    I wonder if they still teach that? Meant both as a serious question and a (possible) joke.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That was back in the 1970s.

    As I recall, it was right at the beginning of the syllabus - 'begin at the beginning' of the history of England.
  61. “To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.”

  62. @res
    Interesting. Thanks. I did a web search for that and most of the top hits were pre-1910.

    This excerpt from an 1899 (?) book elaborates a bit. After a ritual "debunking" (i.e. pointing out some exceptions) of the older view of course.

    Can you recommend any good references?

    Here’s a nice article from 1897 that gives the then-Current Wisdom on the population history of the British Isles. It’s pretty astonishing that you could learn more about this stuff from Popular Science in 1897 than in 1997:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eiIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=Long+barrows+%3D+long+heads,+round+barrows+%3D+round+heads&source=bl&ots=bsXqRvsjRW&sig=eSt4miJFGPVfeIO4uj5Fex6dNjA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw2a6BmOfTAhVj6YMKHWgxCIMQ6AEIQjAI#v=onepage&q&f=false

    The whole issue is an interesting read. Some of the articles:

    ARE THERE PLANETS AMONG THE STARS?

    ANIMATED PICTURES.

    THE SCIENTIFIC SPIRIT IN KIPLING’S WORK.

    PRINCIPLES OF TAXATION.

    THE FEAR OF DEATH.

    THE TEACHING OF APPLIED SCIENCE.
    -About how the Germans rushed out to a lead in chemistry despite much of the basic research being done in France and Britain.

    THE LIFE HISTORY OF SCIENTIFIC IDEAS.

    SKETCH OF JOSEPH PRESTWICH
    -Only for the first line: “SIR JOSEPH PRESTWICH was, at the time of his death, the oldest of British geologists.”

    And the letter from the “Editor’s Table” is a pretty impressive summary of the scientific achievements of the 19th century, ending on the down note that, in the future, their descendants might well be like the post-technological, post-literate Eloi from the Time Machine:

    “AS the nineteenth century draws to its close there is no slackening in that onward march of scientific discovery and invention which has been its chief characteristic…

    …there is a tendency, which we think is already beginning to be well defined, to effect a radical differentiation between those who are concerned in carrying out the work of the world as thinkers and inventors and those who are only concerned in using the improved appliances placed in their hands. Some of our readers will remember the horribly grim development suggested in Mr. H. G. Wells’s fantastical romance…”

    Is there any doubt that the Belle Epoque was Peak Western Civilization?

    • Replies: @Bundang Social Club
    OT, but I started leafing through more of these old Pop Sci issues, and there's an excellent piece on immigration from 1905.
    It's difficult to summarize, but basically concludes that immigrants at the time were assimilating at a satisfactory rate.

    One finding that surprised me was that native-born whites of foreign parentage had a literacy rate of 98% in 1900 compared with 94% for whites of foreign stock.
    The explanation given is that the immigrants all settled in rich Northern states with functioning educational institutions that did a good job of making sure all children went to school, while the native whites of the South were still quite backwards. It also makes the argument that, corrected for demographics (young adult males were heavily over-represented), immigrants were not particularly inclined to criminality.

    The author is pretty agnostic on the economic effects on native workers, but does note that low-cost immigrant labor drove natives out of the garment industry and made labor organization there virtually impossible.

    243-255: https://books.google.com/books?id=DyQDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&lr=#v=onepage&q&f=true
    , @res
    Thanks!
  63. @Rohirrimborn
    OT - iSteve bait in today's Washington Post:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/express/wp/2017/05/11/the-library-of-congresss-jefferson-building-very-beautiful-a-little-bit-racist/?utm_term=.865bc1ff1120

    How deplorable….

    In addition to interpreting world history, the decorators of the Library of Congress also attempted to illustrate cutting-edge science. That resulted in one of the stranger features of the Jefferson Building: a series of 33 faces on the outdoor keystones of the building representing the world’s primary races as determined by Smithsonian scientist Otis T. Mason. These so-called “ethnological heads” were modeled on his collection of “authentic, life-size models, chiefly of savage and barbarous peoples,” boasted the “Handbook of the Library of Congress” in 1897. Today, they stand as an unintentional monument to the folly of “scientifically” categorizing races, which led to eugenics and other horrors.

  64. @james wilson
    Since the Brits manged to retain 90% of their 5th century genome after the waves of Danes, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, and Normans hit them, the 10% Neolithic hit leaves them closer to Neanderthal fate. Very surprising.

    the Normans , Anglos and Saxons were also decedents of the Bell Beakers…

    Megalithic structures like Stonehenge in Wiltshire, the Newgrange passage tomb in County Meath, Ireland, or the Callanish Stones on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland all likelihood built by neolithic men belonging essentially to haplogroups G2a and I2a. and no men with R1b (the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the British Isles. Today less than 1% of the British males have these once common neolithic Y chromosomes.

    But since the Bronze age 90% of men on the British Isles have been haplogroup R1b
    While the Anglos and Saxons and Normans were 50% R1b. Today 50% of males in France and Germany are R1b. Higher in Northern France and Western Germany.

    It is interesting that even today 90% of Irish males and 70% of the British are L21 a sub clade of R1b. This haplogroup is dated to about 2,700 BC. All males who are L21 have a common male ancestor who lived about 4,000 years ago.

  65. From the Bell Beaker Blog:

    (Update 2)
    Ok, so I was wrong. Lactase Persistence is very low even in the British Bronze Age!! What!
    They absolutely, positively, unequivocally exclude admixture from Iberia (Neolithic ancestry of Beakers, they say is more similar to LBK populations (actually GAC and TRB).
    Iberian Beakers have zero steppe admixture (except two girls in the North)
    Dutch and British Beakers are identical
    95% of British Beakers are R1b P312. However, this reduces in the MBA to 75%
    93.5% population replacement. Wow again. (Keep in mind this may be relative to immigration)
    British Beakers were more vanilla and then became increasingly so.

    (Update 3)
    “In central Europe, Steppe ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker Complex-associated individuals, contradicting initial suggestions of gene flow between these groups based on analysis of mtDNA and dental morphology”

    (Update 6)

    After reading through the first time and looking at the Balkans paper, several things ranging from 1) effectively proven to 2) more likely with new factual weight being added, now seem possible:
    Beaker appears to have come directly from the Pontic-Caspian steppe while absorbing LBK-like or admixed ancestry. Census estimates and other data supports this.
    Many of their mito-profiles look steppic.
    The Ukraine looks mixed
    Skin, eyes and LP basically identical to Yamnaya, changes over time. (Which I still don’t get)
    Not a trickle of people. Waves of immigrants first into Europe, then the isles with massive population increases following (older papers below).
    Areas of Europe less affected initially get theirs in the Bronze Age.
    U106 ~= Veluwe Beakers

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/

  66. Razib’s take:

    First, the Bell Beaker phenomenon was both cultural and demographic. Cultural in that it began in the Iberian peninsula, and was transmitted to Central Europe, without much gene flow from what they can see. Demographic in that its push west into what is today the Low Countries and France and the British Isles was accompanied by massive gene flow.

    In their British samples they conclude that 90% of the ancestry of early Bronze Age populations derive from migrants from Central Europe with some steppe-like ancestry. In over words, in a few hundred years there was a 90% turnover of ancestry. The preponderance of the male European R1b lineage also dates to this period. It went from ~0% to ~75-90% in Britain over a few hundred years.

    The vast majority of the allele frequency change in Britons for digestion of milk sugar post-dates the demographic turnover. In other words, the modern allele frequency is a function of post-Bronze Age selection. This is not surprising, as it supports the result in Eight thousand years of natural selection.

    At least as interesting are the pigmentation loci. The fact that the derived frequency in HERC2-OCA2 is lower in both British and Central European Beaker people samples indicates that the lower proportion is not an artifact of sampling. Britons have gotten more blue-eyed over the last 4,000 years. Second, SLC45A2 is at shocking low proportions for modern European populations.

    This particular result convinces me that the method in Field et al. which detected lots of recent (last 2,000 years) selection on pigmentation in British populations is not just a statistical artifact. Though these papers are solving much of European prehistory, they are also going to be essential windows into the trajectory of natural selection in human populations over the last 5,000 years.

    * In the context of this paper the Anglo-Saxon migrations tackled by the PoBI paper are minor affairs because the two populations were already genetically rather close. Additionally, the PoBI paper found that the German migrations were significant demographic events, but most of the ancestry across Britain does date to the previous period.

    http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/10/the-bronze-age-demographic-transformation-of-britiain/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RazibKhansTotalFeed+%28Razib+Khan%27s+total+feed%29

  67. @Bundang Social Club
    Here's a nice article from 1897 that gives the then-Current Wisdom on the population history of the British Isles. It's pretty astonishing that you could learn more about this stuff from Popular Science in 1897 than in 1997:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eiIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=Long+barrows+%3D+long+heads,+round+barrows+%3D+round+heads&source=bl&ots=bsXqRvsjRW&sig=eSt4miJFGPVfeIO4uj5Fex6dNjA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw2a6BmOfTAhVj6YMKHWgxCIMQ6AEIQjAI#v=onepage&q&f=false

    The whole issue is an interesting read. Some of the articles:

    ARE THERE PLANETS AMONG THE STARS?

    ANIMATED PICTURES.

    THE SCIENTIFIC SPIRIT IN KIPLING'S WORK.

    PRINCIPLES OF TAXATION.

    THE FEAR OF DEATH.

    THE TEACHING OF APPLIED SCIENCE.
    -About how the Germans rushed out to a lead in chemistry despite much of the basic research being done in France and Britain.

    THE LIFE HISTORY OF SCIENTIFIC IDEAS.

    SKETCH OF JOSEPH PRESTWICH
    -Only for the first line: "SIR JOSEPH PRESTWICH was, at the time of his death, the oldest of British geologists."



    And the letter from the "Editor's Table" is a pretty impressive summary of the scientific achievements of the 19th century, ending on the down note that, in the future, their descendants might well be like the post-technological, post-literate Eloi from the Time Machine:


    "AS the nineteenth century draws to its close there is no slackening in that onward march of scientific discovery and invention which has been its chief characteristic...

    ...there is a tendency, which we think is already beginning to be well defined, to effect a radical differentiation between those who are concerned in carrying out the work of the world as thinkers and inventors and those who are only concerned in using the improved appliances placed in their hands. Some of our readers will remember the horribly grim development suggested in Mr. H. G. Wells's fantastical romance..."
     
    Is there any doubt that the Belle Epoque was Peak Western Civilization?

    OT, but I started leafing through more of these old Pop Sci issues, and there’s an excellent piece on immigration from 1905.
    It’s difficult to summarize, but basically concludes that immigrants at the time were assimilating at a satisfactory rate.

    One finding that surprised me was that native-born whites of foreign parentage had a literacy rate of 98% in 1900 compared with 94% for whites of foreign stock.
    The explanation given is that the immigrants all settled in rich Northern states with functioning educational institutions that did a good job of making sure all children went to school, while the native whites of the South were still quite backwards. It also makes the argument that, corrected for demographics (young adult males were heavily over-represented), immigrants were not particularly inclined to criminality.

    The author is pretty agnostic on the economic effects on native workers, but does note that low-cost immigrant labor drove natives out of the garment industry and made labor organization there virtually impossible.

    243-255: https://books.google.com/books?id=DyQDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&lr=#v=onepage&q&f=true

    • Replies: @res
    After skimming that I wonder if the author would have been considered the equivalent of an SJW in his time. Amazing to see how much we have "advanced" in 100+ years in our ability to have a thoughtful discussion about topics like this.

    I liked the first sentence of the concluding paragraph:

    The establishment here of foreign standards of living is unquestionably detrimental.
     
  68. @Achilles
    If only we could identify contemporary descendants of that victim population, perhaps we could provide federal contract set-aside programs for businesses they own, or something.

    Contact Georgetown University that is now setting aside spaces for the descendants of slaves. Gonna devalue dat degree.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    But we are all the descendants of slaves. And of slave owners. That is how human history, and pre-history, is.
  69. @Patrick Harris
    The vodka belt has a decent track-record against both the beer-swillers and the winos.

    They themselves were beaten by the sake-sippers in 1905, who in turn were crushed by the beer-swillers in 1945.

  70. @res
    I wonder if they still teach that? Meant both as a serious question and a (possible) joke.

    That was back in the 1970s.

    As I recall, it was right at the beginning of the syllabus – ‘begin at the beginning’ of the history of England.

    • Replies: @res
    That makes sense. Can anyone comment on whether it is still part of the curriculum? And if not, when the change happened?
  71. @PhysicistDave
    Steve, when we were in England a couple years ago, we made sure to visit a particular museum specifically because it had artifacts of the Beaker Folk.

    They've been my favorite prehistoric group since I read Andre Norton's Time Traders, in which the Beaker Folk play an important role, when I was a kid back in the '60s.

    The one takeaway I got from the museum was that scholars seemed to think the beakers were for drinking beer or a similar beverage.

    I'm not quite sure what that says about all of us of European descent who might turn out to be descended from the Beaker Folk.

    Dave

    The current front runner is Mead.

  72. @Bundang Social Club
    Here's a nice article from 1897 that gives the then-Current Wisdom on the population history of the British Isles. It's pretty astonishing that you could learn more about this stuff from Popular Science in 1897 than in 1997:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eiIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=Long+barrows+%3D+long+heads,+round+barrows+%3D+round+heads&source=bl&ots=bsXqRvsjRW&sig=eSt4miJFGPVfeIO4uj5Fex6dNjA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw2a6BmOfTAhVj6YMKHWgxCIMQ6AEIQjAI#v=onepage&q&f=false

    The whole issue is an interesting read. Some of the articles:

    ARE THERE PLANETS AMONG THE STARS?

    ANIMATED PICTURES.

    THE SCIENTIFIC SPIRIT IN KIPLING'S WORK.

    PRINCIPLES OF TAXATION.

    THE FEAR OF DEATH.

    THE TEACHING OF APPLIED SCIENCE.
    -About how the Germans rushed out to a lead in chemistry despite much of the basic research being done in France and Britain.

    THE LIFE HISTORY OF SCIENTIFIC IDEAS.

    SKETCH OF JOSEPH PRESTWICH
    -Only for the first line: "SIR JOSEPH PRESTWICH was, at the time of his death, the oldest of British geologists."



    And the letter from the "Editor's Table" is a pretty impressive summary of the scientific achievements of the 19th century, ending on the down note that, in the future, their descendants might well be like the post-technological, post-literate Eloi from the Time Machine:


    "AS the nineteenth century draws to its close there is no slackening in that onward march of scientific discovery and invention which has been its chief characteristic...

    ...there is a tendency, which we think is already beginning to be well defined, to effect a radical differentiation between those who are concerned in carrying out the work of the world as thinkers and inventors and those who are only concerned in using the improved appliances placed in their hands. Some of our readers will remember the horribly grim development suggested in Mr. H. G. Wells's fantastical romance..."
     
    Is there any doubt that the Belle Epoque was Peak Western Civilization?

    Thanks!

  73. @Anonymous
    That was back in the 1970s.

    As I recall, it was right at the beginning of the syllabus - 'begin at the beginning' of the history of England.

    That makes sense. Can anyone comment on whether it is still part of the curriculum? And if not, when the change happened?

  74. @Charles Pewitt
    https://youtu.be/nvEWq01cg6g

    Hill Farmer's Blues by Mark Knopfler

    I'm going into Tow Law

    For what I need

    Chain for the ripsaw

    Killer for the weed

    The dogs at the back door

    Leave him be

    Don't feed him jack

    And don't wait up for me




    Tow Law is up Yorkshire way in England. Maybe the hill farmer has the blues because he has ancestral memories of his continental past. In the song by Knopfler he has the blues because of this: "Behind my back Lord, you made a fool of me."

    Maybe all the people in Britain are odd because they are now on a big island instead of a continent and they have visions of where they were before. I am glad the British got control of America instead of any of the other continental powers.

    A bit further North in Durham. Law is a dialect term applied to high moorland and mountains in the Far North East of England. I was there when it still had a colliery.

    Dire Straits was a Geordie (North East) band.

  75. res says:
    @Bundang Social Club
    OT, but I started leafing through more of these old Pop Sci issues, and there's an excellent piece on immigration from 1905.
    It's difficult to summarize, but basically concludes that immigrants at the time were assimilating at a satisfactory rate.

    One finding that surprised me was that native-born whites of foreign parentage had a literacy rate of 98% in 1900 compared with 94% for whites of foreign stock.
    The explanation given is that the immigrants all settled in rich Northern states with functioning educational institutions that did a good job of making sure all children went to school, while the native whites of the South were still quite backwards. It also makes the argument that, corrected for demographics (young adult males were heavily over-represented), immigrants were not particularly inclined to criminality.

    The author is pretty agnostic on the economic effects on native workers, but does note that low-cost immigrant labor drove natives out of the garment industry and made labor organization there virtually impossible.

    243-255: https://books.google.com/books?id=DyQDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&lr=#v=onepage&q&f=true

    After skimming that I wonder if the author would have been considered the equivalent of an SJW in his time. Amazing to see how much we have “advanced” in 100+ years in our ability to have a thoughtful discussion about topics like this.

    I liked the first sentence of the concluding paragraph:

    The establishment here of foreign standards of living is unquestionably detrimental.

    • Replies: @Bundang Social Club
    This guy was definitely a center-left Progressive/Good Government type, but I don't think that's really an SJW equivalent.

    The first line of the piece is so reasonable and moderate that it couldn't be uttered in polite company today:

    THE assimilation of hundreds of thousands of aliens every year undoubtedly produces social and political effects worthy of close study, which are overlooked by some and exaggerated by others.
     
    As Steve is apt to point out, schmaltz so clouds much of the current discourse on immigration that much of it fails to clear even this relatively low hurdle of seriousness.
  76. @Anonymous
    Probably mystifies most Americans, but a hoary old phrase beloved of English archaeologists and known to every schoolboy was 'Long barrows = long heads, round barrows = round heads'.


    The explanation is that 'barrow' is the old English term for burial mound or tumulus, which litter the English countryside - and are, in the main, still intact after thousands and thousands of years. When archaeology first became established as a science, back in the day, it was noticed that the barrows could be divided into two groups, the 'long' pattern and the 'round' pattern. The long barrows were the earliest and the skulls thus excavated were invariably dolichocephalic and surmised to be of Mediterranean provenance.
    By contrast, round barrows came later and seemed to have taken over the country as if by an invasion. The skulls contained therein were invariably brachycephalic.

    From The Hound of the Baskervilles, published in 1902, when Dr Mortimer first met Holmes:

    “You interest me very much, Mr. Holmes. I had hardly expected so dolichocephalic a skull or such well-marked supra-orbital development. Would you have any objection to my running my finger along your parietal fissure? A cast of your skull, sir, until the original is available, would be an ornament to any anthropological museum. It is not my intention to be fulsome, but I confess that I covet your skull.”

    Later in the tale:

    The other day—Thursday, to be more exact—Dr. Mortimer lunched with us. He has been excavating a barrow at Long Down and has got a prehistoric skull which fills him with great joy.

  77. @res
    After skimming that I wonder if the author would have been considered the equivalent of an SJW in his time. Amazing to see how much we have "advanced" in 100+ years in our ability to have a thoughtful discussion about topics like this.

    I liked the first sentence of the concluding paragraph:

    The establishment here of foreign standards of living is unquestionably detrimental.
     

    This guy was definitely a center-left Progressive/Good Government type, but I don’t think that’s really an SJW equivalent.

    The first line of the piece is so reasonable and moderate that it couldn’t be uttered in polite company today:

    THE assimilation of hundreds of thousands of aliens every year undoubtedly produces social and political effects worthy of close study, which are overlooked by some and exaggerated by others.

    As Steve is apt to point out, schmaltz so clouds much of the current discourse on immigration that much of it fails to clear even this relatively low hurdle of seriousness.

    • Replies: @res

    This guy was definitely a center-left Progressive/Good Government type, but I don’t think that’s really an SJW equivalent.
     
    I was mostly making a rueful comment on how far the Overton window has shifted. I think the "center-left Progressive/Good Government type" did much good in this country. Sometimes I worry that the SJWs might prove to be much the same only in the current year (THEY certainly think so).

    Lots of good points in your comments above. Thanks.
  78. @Travis
    the men were slaughtered , as their Y chromosomes were replaced by the invaders...while many Women survived as their mtDNA was passed on to future generations.

    No. BB in Britain was similar to BB on the Lower Rhine, hence no admixture. Maybe 10%. That wasn’t merely due to suppresion. That hardly could not have happened through genocide. There must have been a neolithic collaps beforehand. I go for the Plague Hypothesis.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    " I go for the Plague Hypothesis." A plague that killed the men but not the women?
  79. @markflag
    Contact Georgetown University that is now setting aside spaces for the descendants of slaves. Gonna devalue dat degree.

    But we are all the descendants of slaves. And of slave owners. That is how human history, and pre-history, is.

    • Replies: @backup
    I think reducing human history to such simple schemes is exactly where Marx went wrong.
  80. @Travis
    Europe should allow them to run Casinos on their tribal land. Stonehenge could have a HardRock Casino overlooking their burial grounds.

    something like this:

  81. I don’t trust any source that doesn’t know how to spell artifacts – it’s twice, so not a typo. Of course, this is Wikipedia, so I guess it must be right, they’re all over the internets.

    Then the 2nd article starts in with the “B.C.E.” crap. I can’t read another library book with that B.C.E. and C.E. terminology. I was getting a carpal tunnel flare-up after a few hundred pages of crossing that shit out with an ink pen.

  82. @Intelligent Dasein
    Archaeology is just a form of decriminalized grave robbery, and our museums are just High Church comicons where Darwinian autists go around larping as experts and pretending that, somewhere in the past, their fantasies actually existed.

    Intelligent Dasein believes in a literal invisible Man-God who Chose Trump and therefore we must trust him (not Slick Willy or Obama though of course). And he also believes in a literal devil.

    And HE has the lowest opinion (as referenced above) of what he calls “darwinists”.

    I don’t think it’s rude calling him and his kind out on this, I think it’s mean.

    Never go full retard, dude.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    I'm at a loss as to what exactly it is you're calling me out on here.
  83. @Travis
    the men were slaughtered , as their Y chromosomes were replaced by the invaders...while many Women survived as their mtDNA was passed on to future generations.

    A second thought is that true Bell Beaker burials from, say, Hungary vary widely in Steppe ancestry according to this paper. They really have a lot of interesting details.

  84. @BB753
    Both.

    Neither actually. If invaders kill men, they confiscate women. That invariably leads to genetic changes. However, the paper states clearly that the colossal genetic turnover in Britain remained the same until deep into the Bronze Age.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Well, if what you describe is not both some breeding (with the women) and some killing and attrition (of the men), what is it?
  85. res says:
    @Bundang Social Club
    This guy was definitely a center-left Progressive/Good Government type, but I don't think that's really an SJW equivalent.

    The first line of the piece is so reasonable and moderate that it couldn't be uttered in polite company today:

    THE assimilation of hundreds of thousands of aliens every year undoubtedly produces social and political effects worthy of close study, which are overlooked by some and exaggerated by others.
     
    As Steve is apt to point out, schmaltz so clouds much of the current discourse on immigration that much of it fails to clear even this relatively low hurdle of seriousness.

    This guy was definitely a center-left Progressive/Good Government type, but I don’t think that’s really an SJW equivalent.

    I was mostly making a rueful comment on how far the Overton window has shifted. I think the “center-left Progressive/Good Government type” did much good in this country. Sometimes I worry that the SJWs might prove to be much the same only in the current year (THEY certainly think so).

    Lots of good points in your comments above. Thanks.

  86. @dearieme
    But we are all the descendants of slaves. And of slave owners. That is how human history, and pre-history, is.

    I think reducing human history to such simple schemes is exactly where Marx went wrong.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    What on earth does that gnomic utterance mean?
  87. @Moshe
    Intelligent Dasein believes in a literal invisible Man-God who Chose Trump and therefore we must trust him (not Slick Willy or Obama though of course). And he also believes in a literal devil.

    And HE has the lowest opinion (as referenced above) of what he calls "darwinists".

    I don't think it's rude calling him and his kind out on this, I think it's mean.

    Never go full retard, dude.

    I’m at a loss as to what exactly it is you’re calling me out on here.

  88. @Anonymous
    Everyone is Russian.
    Only they don't know it.

    “Everyone is Russian.
    Only they don’t know it.”

    That should be amended to: All Indo-European culture, including language, is ‘Russian’ in origin.

    That statement is true.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Or maybe Ukrainian.
  89. @Y
    They're using the magic word "migration". So it wasn't a violent, un-PC "invasion", it was a peaceful, culturally enriching PC "migration". That explains it.

    Just as Hernan Corte and the other conquistadors “migrated” to New Spain and South America, etc..

  90. @backup
    No. BB in Britain was similar to BB on the Lower Rhine, hence no admixture. Maybe 10%. That wasn't merely due to suppresion. That hardly could not have happened through genocide. There must have been a neolithic collaps beforehand. I go for the Plague Hypothesis.

    ” I go for the Plague Hypothesis.” A plague that killed the men but not the women?

    • Replies: @backup
    There is more than 90% people replacement in Britain, not 50%. The Tuithoorn samples are similar to the British and the British Bell beaker samples don't differ significantly from the continental ones on uniparental markers.
  91. @Jake
    "Everyone is Russian.
    Only they don’t know it."

    That should be amended to: All Indo-European culture, including language, is 'Russian' in origin.

    That statement is true.

    Or maybe Ukrainian.

  92. @backup
    Neither actually. If invaders kill men, they confiscate women. That invariably leads to genetic changes. However, the paper states clearly that the colossal genetic turnover in Britain remained the same until deep into the Bronze Age.

    Well, if what you describe is not both some breeding (with the women) and some killing and attrition (of the men), what is it?

    • Replies: @backup
    Good question. I don't know. Plague has been found in Yamnaya samples. There are signs of huge population collapses before the population turnover in the British Isles. But these are merely suggestions, although Corded Ware expert Kristan Kristiansen made the link with plague.

    Now, a merger between Yamnaya like type men and farmer women did occur in Europe to create the Bell beaker people. But not in Britain.
  93. @dearieme
    " I go for the Plague Hypothesis." A plague that killed the men but not the women?

    There is more than 90% people replacement in Britain, not 50%. The Tuithoorn samples are similar to the British and the British Bell beaker samples don’t differ significantly from the continental ones on uniparental markers.

  94. @BB753
    Well, if what you describe is not both some breeding (with the women) and some killing and attrition (of the men), what is it?

    Good question. I don’t know. Plague has been found in Yamnaya samples. There are signs of huge population collapses before the population turnover in the British Isles. But these are merely suggestions, although Corded Ware expert Kristan Kristiansen made the link with plague.

    Now, a merger between Yamnaya like type men and farmer women did occur in Europe to create the Bell beaker people. But not in Britain.

  95. @backup
    I think reducing human history to such simple schemes is exactly where Marx went wrong.

    What on earth does that gnomic utterance mean?

    • Replies: @backup
    That was basically what Marxism is about: reducing history to the exchanges between the exploiters and the exploited. Slave keepers and slaves.

    History is infinitely richer and more complex.

  96. @res
    Interesting. Thanks. Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1

    Can you draw any connections between haplogroup I2 (or any of the other haplogroups) and the groups described in Albion's Seed?

    Jayman goes into detail on a related topic: http://www.unz.com/jman/the-genetics-of-the-american-nations/
    but does not talk about haplogroups explicitly. I looked at Han, 2017 and they don't seem to talk about haplogroups either.

    P.S. I finally am getting around to reading Mary Chestnut (still in 1861 though). Thanks to you (and others here) for motivating me.

    ” Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?”

    More or less. There were definitely multiple migrations, as we know from recorded history. Prehistorically we have the archaeological record, and now DNA. The DNA record is in the infant stage, and we learn more every day. For instance when Cambridge began the British DNA Project, the first take is that there was no great migration of Celtic people to the British Isles, and that Celtic was a language and culture of trade, but not a group of people. Now we’ve come full circle and the invasion is confirmed. There’s still a lot more to be learned. For instance the Druids. Why was this religion peculiar to Britain, and not found among Celtic cultures of continental Europe? Was it a holdover of the earlier populations? I tend to think so, as Stonehenge and other such megalithic structures are rarely found outside of Britain, and these predate the Indo-Europeans.

    The specific subclade of I2 to look at is I2a1b, L161.1, sometimes additionally identified as “Isles,” with an Isles A, B, C, and D. It is found almost nowhere else but in the British Isles, and some parts of Germany. They originated in the Balkans, where there was a Glacial Refuge, which allowed pockets of people to survive the Ice Ages of the Glacial Maximums. During a glacial minimum they spread out, mostly to Central and Eastern Europe, the Italian Peninsula, and the Island of Sardinia. Another group kept going, and crossed to Britain via Doggerland, the land bridge that existed between continental Europe and Britain. They crossed over to Ireland at some point, and colonized it, too. My branch of this haplogroup divided from the main line some 6,700 years ago in Britain.

    There were later glacial maximums, and there are differing theories about the first settlements of modern humans. Some people think the earliest settlements died out, and it took more than one attempt. However, they were the first, and for a time, the only modern humans in Britain. It’s thought they existed in scattered small family groups, and followed the deer herds. They are sometimes referred to as the Deer Hunters. If you’re interested, this link takes you to a site where a lot of the current theories are shown in an interesting and entertaining format: http://s168543378.onlinehome.us/z/L-161_Timeline%20.html

    As to your question about the people written about in Albion’s Seed, they were present among all four groups to a small extent. This haplogroup accounts for only about 1% to 2% of the men of the British Isles today, vs. 80% to 90% for R1b. R1b-L21 is now considered a definite, but not the only Haplogroup to be identified as Celtic. There are R1b (and R1a) lineages in every other group to invade Britain, right up to and including the Normans. As they are such a small group of people, I can understand why there are largely ignored, except for being the first. Outside of the megaliths of ancient Britain, and their DNA, they’ve left no trace of themselves on the historic record.

    They survived in small pockets all over Britain. Looking at the results of the I2a Haplogroup Project at FTDNA, most descendants today are found in Scotland, then England, then Ireland. They were not Celtic, or Anglo-Saxon, nor Dane; they adopted the culture of the dominant group, and survived.

    Enjoy your Mary! I know I did. She was definitely a woman, and an entertaining writer.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    There’s still a lot more to be learned. For instance the Druids. Why was this religion peculiar to Britain, and not found among Celtic cultures of continental Europe?
     
    I was under the impression that Druids existed on the Continent:

    The earliest known references to the druids date to the fourth century BCE and the oldest detailed description comes from Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico (50s BCE). Later Greco-Roman writers also described the Druids, including Cicero,[2] Tacitus[3] and Pliny the Elder.[4] Following the Roman invasion of Gaul, the druid orders were suppressed by the Roman government under the 1st century CE emperors Tiberius and Claudius, and had disappeared from the written record by the 2nd century.
     

    The earliest extant text that describes the druids in detail is Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico, book VI, written in the 50s or 40s BCE. A military general who was intent on conquering Gaul and Britain, Caesar described the druids as being concerned with "divine worship, the due performance of sacrifices, private or public, and the interpretation of ritual questions." He claimed that they played an important part in Gaulish society, being one of the two respected classes along with the equites (in Rome the name for members of a privileged class above the common people, but also "horsemen") and that they performed the function of judges. He claimed that they recognized the authority of a single leader, who would rule until his death, when a successor would be chosen by vote or through conflict. He also remarked that they met annually at a sacred place in the region occupied by the Carnute tribe in Gaul, while they viewed Britain as the centre of druidic study; and that they were not found amongst the German tribes to the east of the Rhine. According to Caesar, many young men were trained to be druids, during which time they had to learn all the associated lore by heart. He also claimed their main teaching was "the souls do not perish, but after death pass from one to another". They were also concerned with "the stars and their movements, the size of the cosmos and the earth, the world of nature, and the powers of deities", indicating they were involved with not only such common aspects of religion as theology and cosmology, but also astronomy. Caesar also held that they were "administrators" during rituals of human sacrifice, for which criminals were usually used, and that the method was through burning in a wicker man
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid
    , @backup
    There is a DNA paper out on Paleolithic Ice Age Europe. The ice age refuge theories are most likely not what happened. Y-DNA I was all over the place and survived among the Iberian refuge just as well.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/05/the-genetic-history-of-ice-age-europe.html
    , @Travis
    Megalithic structures like Stonehenge in Wiltshire, the Newgrange passage tomb in County Meath, Ireland, or the Callanish Stones on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland were in all likelihood built by men belonging essentially to haplogroups G2a and I2a.. The ancient Y-DNA samples from Atlantic Megalithic cultures tested to date included haplogroups G2a (20 samples), I2a1 (4 samples) and I2a2a. No R1b samples found. 500 years later R1b men were 90% of the samples from a base of 0.

    It is perhaps the wealth of Megalithic people that attracted, through the Beaker network, the Indo-European speakers from central Europe, and caused them to invade western Europe and destroy the Megalithic cultures that had lasted for several millennia. Equipped with bronze weapons and horses, these Indo-Europeans were not cereal farmers but cattle herders from the Pontic Steppe, north of the Black Sea. They had already conquered the Balkans, the Carpathians, Poland, Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries between 4,000 and 2,800 BCE, causing the collapse of all the Chalcolithic and Neolithic cultures in those areas. The southern R1b branch had advanced from the Hungarian plain to Bohemia and Germany by 2500 BCE (presence of R1b confirmed by Lee at al. 2012), and continued its migration until the Atlantic coast, reaching Britain and western France by 2,200 BCE and Ireland by 2,000 BCE.

    It is likely that these Proto-Celts who invaded the British Isles belonged to a great majority to the L21 subclade of R1b, as this haplogroup now makes up over two thirds of paternal lineages in Wales, Ireland and Highland Scotland.
  97. @Achilles
    If only we could identify contemporary descendants of that victim population, perhaps we could provide federal contract set-aside programs for businesses they own, or something.

    Achilles, Maybe the Basques are the “original victims” in Europe? They appear to be an ancient, remnant people, driven to isolation and refuge in the Pyrenees Mts.

  98. @dearieme
    What on earth does that gnomic utterance mean?

    That was basically what Marxism is about: reducing history to the exchanges between the exploiters and the exploited. Slave keepers and slaves.

    History is infinitely richer and more complex.

  99. @RebelWriter
    " Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?"

    More or less. There were definitely multiple migrations, as we know from recorded history. Prehistorically we have the archaeological record, and now DNA. The DNA record is in the infant stage, and we learn more every day. For instance when Cambridge began the British DNA Project, the first take is that there was no great migration of Celtic people to the British Isles, and that Celtic was a language and culture of trade, but not a group of people. Now we've come full circle and the invasion is confirmed. There's still a lot more to be learned. For instance the Druids. Why was this religion peculiar to Britain, and not found among Celtic cultures of continental Europe? Was it a holdover of the earlier populations? I tend to think so, as Stonehenge and other such megalithic structures are rarely found outside of Britain, and these predate the Indo-Europeans.

    The specific subclade of I2 to look at is I2a1b, L161.1, sometimes additionally identified as "Isles," with an Isles A, B, C, and D. It is found almost nowhere else but in the British Isles, and some parts of Germany. They originated in the Balkans, where there was a Glacial Refuge, which allowed pockets of people to survive the Ice Ages of the Glacial Maximums. During a glacial minimum they spread out, mostly to Central and Eastern Europe, the Italian Peninsula, and the Island of Sardinia. Another group kept going, and crossed to Britain via Doggerland, the land bridge that existed between continental Europe and Britain. They crossed over to Ireland at some point, and colonized it, too. My branch of this haplogroup divided from the main line some 6,700 years ago in Britain.

    There were later glacial maximums, and there are differing theories about the first settlements of modern humans. Some people think the earliest settlements died out, and it took more than one attempt. However, they were the first, and for a time, the only modern humans in Britain. It's thought they existed in scattered small family groups, and followed the deer herds. They are sometimes referred to as the Deer Hunters. If you're interested, this link takes you to a site where a lot of the current theories are shown in an interesting and entertaining format: http://s168543378.onlinehome.us/z/L-161_Timeline%20.html

    As to your question about the people written about in Albion's Seed, they were present among all four groups to a small extent. This haplogroup accounts for only about 1% to 2% of the men of the British Isles today, vs. 80% to 90% for R1b. R1b-L21 is now considered a definite, but not the only Haplogroup to be identified as Celtic. There are R1b (and R1a) lineages in every other group to invade Britain, right up to and including the Normans. As they are such a small group of people, I can understand why there are largely ignored, except for being the first. Outside of the megaliths of ancient Britain, and their DNA, they've left no trace of themselves on the historic record.

    They survived in small pockets all over Britain. Looking at the results of the I2a Haplogroup Project at FTDNA, most descendants today are found in Scotland, then England, then Ireland. They were not Celtic, or Anglo-Saxon, nor Dane; they adopted the culture of the dominant group, and survived.

    Enjoy your Mary! I know I did. She was definitely a woman, and an entertaining writer.

    There’s still a lot more to be learned. For instance the Druids. Why was this religion peculiar to Britain, and not found among Celtic cultures of continental Europe?

    I was under the impression that Druids existed on the Continent:

    The earliest known references to the druids date to the fourth century BCE and the oldest detailed description comes from Julius Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico (50s BCE). Later Greco-Roman writers also described the Druids, including Cicero,[2] Tacitus[3] and Pliny the Elder.[4] Following the Roman invasion of Gaul, the druid orders were suppressed by the Roman government under the 1st century CE emperors Tiberius and Claudius, and had disappeared from the written record by the 2nd century.

    The earliest extant text that describes the druids in detail is Julius Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico, book VI, written in the 50s or 40s BCE. A military general who was intent on conquering Gaul and Britain, Caesar described the druids as being concerned with “divine worship, the due performance of sacrifices, private or public, and the interpretation of ritual questions.” He claimed that they played an important part in Gaulish society, being one of the two respected classes along with the equites (in Rome the name for members of a privileged class above the common people, but also “horsemen”) and that they performed the function of judges. He claimed that they recognized the authority of a single leader, who would rule until his death, when a successor would be chosen by vote or through conflict. He also remarked that they met annually at a sacred place in the region occupied by the Carnute tribe in Gaul, while they viewed Britain as the centre of druidic study; and that they were not found amongst the German tribes to the east of the Rhine. According to Caesar, many young men were trained to be druids, during which time they had to learn all the associated lore by heart. He also claimed their main teaching was “the souls do not perish, but after death pass from one to another”. They were also concerned with “the stars and their movements, the size of the cosmos and the earth, the world of nature, and the powers of deities”, indicating they were involved with not only such common aspects of religion as theology and cosmology, but also astronomy. Caesar also held that they were “administrators” during rituals of human sacrifice, for which criminals were usually used, and that the method was through burning in a wicker man

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid

  100. @RebelWriter
    " Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?"

    More or less. There were definitely multiple migrations, as we know from recorded history. Prehistorically we have the archaeological record, and now DNA. The DNA record is in the infant stage, and we learn more every day. For instance when Cambridge began the British DNA Project, the first take is that there was no great migration of Celtic people to the British Isles, and that Celtic was a language and culture of trade, but not a group of people. Now we've come full circle and the invasion is confirmed. There's still a lot more to be learned. For instance the Druids. Why was this religion peculiar to Britain, and not found among Celtic cultures of continental Europe? Was it a holdover of the earlier populations? I tend to think so, as Stonehenge and other such megalithic structures are rarely found outside of Britain, and these predate the Indo-Europeans.

    The specific subclade of I2 to look at is I2a1b, L161.1, sometimes additionally identified as "Isles," with an Isles A, B, C, and D. It is found almost nowhere else but in the British Isles, and some parts of Germany. They originated in the Balkans, where there was a Glacial Refuge, which allowed pockets of people to survive the Ice Ages of the Glacial Maximums. During a glacial minimum they spread out, mostly to Central and Eastern Europe, the Italian Peninsula, and the Island of Sardinia. Another group kept going, and crossed to Britain via Doggerland, the land bridge that existed between continental Europe and Britain. They crossed over to Ireland at some point, and colonized it, too. My branch of this haplogroup divided from the main line some 6,700 years ago in Britain.

    There were later glacial maximums, and there are differing theories about the first settlements of modern humans. Some people think the earliest settlements died out, and it took more than one attempt. However, they were the first, and for a time, the only modern humans in Britain. It's thought they existed in scattered small family groups, and followed the deer herds. They are sometimes referred to as the Deer Hunters. If you're interested, this link takes you to a site where a lot of the current theories are shown in an interesting and entertaining format: http://s168543378.onlinehome.us/z/L-161_Timeline%20.html

    As to your question about the people written about in Albion's Seed, they were present among all four groups to a small extent. This haplogroup accounts for only about 1% to 2% of the men of the British Isles today, vs. 80% to 90% for R1b. R1b-L21 is now considered a definite, but not the only Haplogroup to be identified as Celtic. There are R1b (and R1a) lineages in every other group to invade Britain, right up to and including the Normans. As they are such a small group of people, I can understand why there are largely ignored, except for being the first. Outside of the megaliths of ancient Britain, and their DNA, they've left no trace of themselves on the historic record.

    They survived in small pockets all over Britain. Looking at the results of the I2a Haplogroup Project at FTDNA, most descendants today are found in Scotland, then England, then Ireland. They were not Celtic, or Anglo-Saxon, nor Dane; they adopted the culture of the dominant group, and survived.

    Enjoy your Mary! I know I did. She was definitely a woman, and an entertaining writer.

    There is a DNA paper out on Paleolithic Ice Age Europe. The ice age refuge theories are most likely not what happened. Y-DNA I was all over the place and survived among the Iberian refuge just as well.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/05/the-genetic-history-of-ice-age-europe.html

  101. @RebelWriter
    " Am I right to infer there were multiple migrations from Europe to Britain and I2 is the first we see in the genetic record?"

    More or less. There were definitely multiple migrations, as we know from recorded history. Prehistorically we have the archaeological record, and now DNA. The DNA record is in the infant stage, and we learn more every day. For instance when Cambridge began the British DNA Project, the first take is that there was no great migration of Celtic people to the British Isles, and that Celtic was a language and culture of trade, but not a group of people. Now we've come full circle and the invasion is confirmed. There's still a lot more to be learned. For instance the Druids. Why was this religion peculiar to Britain, and not found among Celtic cultures of continental Europe? Was it a holdover of the earlier populations? I tend to think so, as Stonehenge and other such megalithic structures are rarely found outside of Britain, and these predate the Indo-Europeans.

    The specific subclade of I2 to look at is I2a1b, L161.1, sometimes additionally identified as "Isles," with an Isles A, B, C, and D. It is found almost nowhere else but in the British Isles, and some parts of Germany. They originated in the Balkans, where there was a Glacial Refuge, which allowed pockets of people to survive the Ice Ages of the Glacial Maximums. During a glacial minimum they spread out, mostly to Central and Eastern Europe, the Italian Peninsula, and the Island of Sardinia. Another group kept going, and crossed to Britain via Doggerland, the land bridge that existed between continental Europe and Britain. They crossed over to Ireland at some point, and colonized it, too. My branch of this haplogroup divided from the main line some 6,700 years ago in Britain.

    There were later glacial maximums, and there are differing theories about the first settlements of modern humans. Some people think the earliest settlements died out, and it took more than one attempt. However, they were the first, and for a time, the only modern humans in Britain. It's thought they existed in scattered small family groups, and followed the deer herds. They are sometimes referred to as the Deer Hunters. If you're interested, this link takes you to a site where a lot of the current theories are shown in an interesting and entertaining format: http://s168543378.onlinehome.us/z/L-161_Timeline%20.html

    As to your question about the people written about in Albion's Seed, they were present among all four groups to a small extent. This haplogroup accounts for only about 1% to 2% of the men of the British Isles today, vs. 80% to 90% for R1b. R1b-L21 is now considered a definite, but not the only Haplogroup to be identified as Celtic. There are R1b (and R1a) lineages in every other group to invade Britain, right up to and including the Normans. As they are such a small group of people, I can understand why there are largely ignored, except for being the first. Outside of the megaliths of ancient Britain, and their DNA, they've left no trace of themselves on the historic record.

    They survived in small pockets all over Britain. Looking at the results of the I2a Haplogroup Project at FTDNA, most descendants today are found in Scotland, then England, then Ireland. They were not Celtic, or Anglo-Saxon, nor Dane; they adopted the culture of the dominant group, and survived.

    Enjoy your Mary! I know I did. She was definitely a woman, and an entertaining writer.

    Megalithic structures like Stonehenge in Wiltshire, the Newgrange passage tomb in County Meath, Ireland, or the Callanish Stones on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland were in all likelihood built by men belonging essentially to haplogroups G2a and I2a.. The ancient Y-DNA samples from Atlantic Megalithic cultures tested to date included haplogroups G2a (20 samples), I2a1 (4 samples) and I2a2a. No R1b samples found. 500 years later R1b men were 90% of the samples from a base of 0.

    It is perhaps the wealth of Megalithic people that attracted, through the Beaker network, the Indo-European speakers from central Europe, and caused them to invade western Europe and destroy the Megalithic cultures that had lasted for several millennia. Equipped with bronze weapons and horses, these Indo-Europeans were not cereal farmers but cattle herders from the Pontic Steppe, north of the Black Sea. They had already conquered the Balkans, the Carpathians, Poland, Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries between 4,000 and 2,800 BCE, causing the collapse of all the Chalcolithic and Neolithic cultures in those areas. The southern R1b branch had advanced from the Hungarian plain to Bohemia and Germany by 2500 BCE (presence of R1b confirmed by Lee at al. 2012), and continued its migration until the Atlantic coast, reaching Britain and western France by 2,200 BCE and Ireland by 2,000 BCE.

    It is likely that these Proto-Celts who invaded the British Isles belonged to a great majority to the L21 subclade of R1b, as this haplogroup now makes up over two thirds of paternal lineages in Wales, Ireland and Highland Scotland.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    What education does one need to understand the language you use in this post? A semester course in Genetics? Two or three chapters of a particular textbook?
  102. Iñigo Olalde, et al

    Shouldn’t that be Iñigo Montoya?

  103. @backup
    Considering that the BB folk that colonised Great-Britain looked most similar to BB folks from the Lower Rhine/Netherlands according to the paper this chapter also comes from the same circle.

    Which chapter?

  104. @Travis
    Megalithic structures like Stonehenge in Wiltshire, the Newgrange passage tomb in County Meath, Ireland, or the Callanish Stones on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland were in all likelihood built by men belonging essentially to haplogroups G2a and I2a.. The ancient Y-DNA samples from Atlantic Megalithic cultures tested to date included haplogroups G2a (20 samples), I2a1 (4 samples) and I2a2a. No R1b samples found. 500 years later R1b men were 90% of the samples from a base of 0.

    It is perhaps the wealth of Megalithic people that attracted, through the Beaker network, the Indo-European speakers from central Europe, and caused them to invade western Europe and destroy the Megalithic cultures that had lasted for several millennia. Equipped with bronze weapons and horses, these Indo-Europeans were not cereal farmers but cattle herders from the Pontic Steppe, north of the Black Sea. They had already conquered the Balkans, the Carpathians, Poland, Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries between 4,000 and 2,800 BCE, causing the collapse of all the Chalcolithic and Neolithic cultures in those areas. The southern R1b branch had advanced from the Hungarian plain to Bohemia and Germany by 2500 BCE (presence of R1b confirmed by Lee at al. 2012), and continued its migration until the Atlantic coast, reaching Britain and western France by 2,200 BCE and Ireland by 2,000 BCE.

    It is likely that these Proto-Celts who invaded the British Isles belonged to a great majority to the L21 subclade of R1b, as this haplogroup now makes up over two thirds of paternal lineages in Wales, Ireland and Highland Scotland.

    What education does one need to understand the language you use in this post? A semester course in Genetics? Two or three chapters of a particular textbook?

    • Replies: @res
    Depends on how deeply you want to understand. You need to know that they are talking about Y-DNA haplogroups. Then try searching through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup
    for the terms used earlier. See what does and doesn't make sense. I think it's perfectly possible to understand most of this (at a basic but useful level) with a few facts:

    1. Y chromosomes are passed intact (e.g. no recombination) through the male line (only men have one).
    2. Occasionally mutations happen causing the phylogenetic tree to branch.
    3. Those mutations/branches can be used to track populations with a common male ancestor.
    4. The most recent common ancestor of all men is known as "Y-chromosomal Adam" (compare "Mitochondrial Eve") and is the base of the Y-DNA phylogenetic tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

    Also worth knowing the similarities with Mt-DNA (Mitochondrial DNA). Present in both men and women, but passed (also intact) through the female line because the egg provides the mitochondria for cells of the fetus.

    P.S. If you are interested in popular accounts of this search for Spencer Wells (books, TV, etc.). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_Wells

    P.P.S. If you want to know more this may be a good place to start: https://www.coursera.org/learn/genetics-evolution
    A much liked and IMHO fairly easy college course.
  105. res says:
    @Opinionator
    What education does one need to understand the language you use in this post? A semester course in Genetics? Two or three chapters of a particular textbook?

    Depends on how deeply you want to understand. You need to know that they are talking about Y-DNA haplogroups. Then try searching through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup
    for the terms used earlier. See what does and doesn’t make sense. I think it’s perfectly possible to understand most of this (at a basic but useful level) with a few facts:

    1. Y chromosomes are passed intact (e.g. no recombination) through the male line (only men have one).
    2. Occasionally mutations happen causing the phylogenetic tree to branch.
    3. Those mutations/branches can be used to track populations with a common male ancestor.
    4. The most recent common ancestor of all men is known as “Y-chromosomal Adam” (compare “Mitochondrial Eve”) and is the base of the Y-DNA phylogenetic tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

    Also worth knowing the similarities with Mt-DNA (Mitochondrial DNA). Present in both men and women, but passed (also intact) through the female line because the egg provides the mitochondria for cells of the fetus.

    P.S. If you are interested in popular accounts of this search for Spencer Wells (books, TV, etc.). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_Wells

    P.P.S. If you want to know more this may be a good place to start: https://www.coursera.org/learn/genetics-evolution
    A much liked and IMHO fairly easy college course.

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