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Kipling's "If--" Obliterated for Being Oppressive
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From The Telegraph:

Rudyard Kipling’s ‘If’ poem scrubbed off wall by students who claim he was a ‘racist’

Camilla Turner, education editor
18 JULY 2018 • 4:00PM

… Student leaders at Manchester University declared that Kipling “stands for the opposite of liberation, empowerment, and human rights”.

The poem, which had been painted on the wall of the students’ union building by an artist, was removed by students on Tuesday, in a bid to “reclaim” history on behalf of those who have been “oppressed” by “the likes of Kipling”.

In lieu of Kipling’s If, students used a black marker pen to write out the poem Still I Rise by Maya Angelou on the same stretch of wall.

Here’s an excerpt from Ms. Angelou’s poem:

Does my sassiness upset you?
Why are you beset with gloom?
’Cause I walk like I’ve got oil wells
Pumping in my living room.

Okay!

Back to The Telegraph:

today, as a team, we removed an imperialist’s work from the walls of our union and replaced them with words of the maya angelou – god knows black and brown voices have been written out of history enough, and it’s time we try to reverse that, at the very least in our union ✊

Like I’ve said before, many people today feel oppressed by the greatness of past humans, especially if those humans didn’t happen to be their ancestors.

Kipling was one of those people of whom you should be proud to belong to the same species. He was perhaps, with Keats (who wrote “On First Looking Into Chapman’s Homer” at age 21) England’s greatest literary prodigy. He published “The Man Who Would Be King” and dozens of other short stories in 1888, his annus mirabilis when he was 22.

And while Keats was a lyric poet, a young man’s job, Kipling was mature before his time. “The Man Who Would Be King” provided the 69-year-old John Huston, who more or less invented film noir in his early 30s and perhaps Hollywood’s single most memorable personality, with the story that kicked off his impressive comeback in old age.

In a 1995 poll by the BBC, Kipling’s “If–” was voted the nation’s favorite poem by a two to one margin over Tennyson’s “The Lady of Shalott.”

As Bridget Jones noted, it’s like a self-help book in verse:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Bridget found it inspirational rather than sexist. But that was back in the 1990s and much has changed since then.

Admittedly, because Kipling was a literary genius, his advice is so reasonable and even-handed in “If–” that it’s close to impossible.

Update: More from Maya Angelou’s “Still I Rise” replacement poem:

Does my sexiness upset you?
Does it come as a surprise
That I dance like I’ve got diamonds
At the meeting of my thighs?

Ouch!

 
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  1. Some “British” students quoted here are: Sara Khan, Fatima Abid.

    Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, has looks very promising.

    Read More
    • Replies: @julius caesar
    Correction: Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, looks very promising.
    , @AnotherDad

    Some “British” students quoted here are: Sara Khan, Fatima Abid.
    Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, looks very promising.
     

    What's needed is a dose of "separationism".

    It's pointless to "debate" with any of these people--they aren't interesting in the sort of logical argument "fair play" of the Anglo-Saxons.

    Rather the way to respond is "Ok, you don't like our culture, let's have separate 'British' and 'rainbow' unions. Each to his own."

    This is what scares them. Because at root this sort of stuff--as with the "Becky" thing or "white privilege", immigration, "diversity"--is really about parasitism. I've called out the core ideology as Jewish "minoritarianism"--minorities good majorities bad. But it is really about parasitism.

    White (heterosexual) gentiles absolutely positively must not be allowed to have their own stuff--schools, country clubs, neighborhoods, nations.

    It can't be about "oppression" because if it's about oppression, then all these people would not be clamoring to get *in*--to get all cosy with their supposed oppressors. Rather they would be happy--actually prefer--being in their own schools and country clubs, neighborhoods and nations doing their own stuff.

    No the ideology here is parasitism. Gloming onto whitey's stuff. First to take his stuff and use it. But beyond that to wreck it and make sure whitey can't build good stuff and enjoy it while you don't.

    Call 'em out on this. Propose the modest solution of "separationism" and you unmask them for the parasites that they are.

    , @pyrrhus
    Maya Angelou has a lot to answer for, letting that thing into print....
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  2. Twinkie says:

    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: “All flesh is grass.”

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in “villainous saltpetre”.
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our ‘ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer’s boast, the Squadron’s pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar’s downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares – shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The “captives of our bow and spear”
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What do you like about it?
    , @hhsiii
    Yeah, I imagine White Man’s Burden bothers them more than If in its own right.
    , @Anon
    So do many "brown" men. I wonder how much "Gehazi" has to do with his incipient unpersoning?(Probably not all that much).

    "Arithmetic on the Frontier" is one of my favorites too, with "The Grave of the Hundred Head" and any number of other classics including all the WWI epitaphs. But nothing quite comes up to "Recessional".

    This bust of Kipling stands near his birthplace: http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/mumbaipix.htm
    , @Prester John
    I've never heard of this Kipling poem. Upon reading it though--a good choice.
    , @Father O'Hara
    This is just the kind of stuff they're talking about!

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone's radar,or has he already been "un personned?"
    , @Chrisnonymous
    That's a great poem. Much better than "If".

    The first line obviously references the second poem of Horace's Odes, book III, and the subject of that poem is the proper education of a young man, which Kipling herein expands on vis-a-vis modern education and imperialism. Genius, as Steve says.

    "To suffer hardness with good cheer,
    In sternest school of warfare bred,
    Our youth should learn;"
    , @AnotherDad
    Unfortunately, Bush not only wasn't paying attention in History class at Yale, he wasn't paying attention in English class at Andover.
    , @Johan Schmidt

    Ask the Yusufzaies
     
    Thanks, but I'd rather not hear the sound of Malala's voice any more.
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  3. Anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Great post, Steve. Brilliant really, taking into consideration its subtlety, all it contains, and the context. Thank you.

    Regarding the last sentence, what are you saying is impossible? To follow the advice in the poem?

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  4. As an adolescent back in the ’60s, I wrote out “If-” by hand and memorized it, on my own initiative (alas, I now only remember parts of it).

    I only found out years later that this was a very Victorian thing to do!

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  5. tyrone says:

    Isn’t it funny Angelou (walk like I got oil wells) spent her last years in a wheel chair,GOD has a sense of humor and always gets the last laugh.

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    • Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist
    Don't be petty, Sir.
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  6. Great poem. It seems to be the wisdom of someone late in life who has seen a lot, but I see that Kipling was just 45 when he wrote it.

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    • Replies: @JMcG
    He lost his son in the First World War a few years after composing this. I believe he also wrote the epitaph inscribed on the grave markers for unidentified British dead- “A Soldier of the Great War, Known Unto God”
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  7. roo_ster says:

    Kipling, though not a military man, captures much of the military existence.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Particularly in Barrack Room Ballads "Tommy" and "Widow at Windsor."
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  8. My personal favorite rendition:

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    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Tim, you beat me to it. :)
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  9. roo_ster says:

    As for obliterating his poem, i am reminded of a fellow who traded his inheritance for a mess of pottage.

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  10. Anonym says:

    Or being hated, don’t give way to hating

    So they want to rub that out. They should be careful what they wish for.

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  11. Anonymous[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    What do you like about it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    Because it is very evocative and rings true. I have seen two thousand pounds of education drop to a ten-rupee jezail... though, in this case, the cheaper man was shortly thereafter pulverized by a JDAM.

    The poem is also cheerfully melancholic - it’s the superior man’s lot to risk his expensive life and limb in some obscure skirmish in a forsaken, faraway land somewhere... precisely because he IS the superior man.
    , @Johann Ricke

    What do you like about it?
     
    It's a stoic reflection on one of the ways men compete for glory. Some climb mountains. Some fight wars. The difference between climbing mountains and fighting armed men is that mountains aren't actively trying to kill you, and they're certainly not creative about it. That's why there are many sagas recounting military exploits and very few about mountain-climbing.
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  12. DCThrowback says: • Website

    *student “leaders”

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  13. Dear Student leaders at Manchester University,

    You are probably not interested in “The God’s of the Copybook Headings”, but… the God’s of the Copybook Headings are interested in YOU!

    Read More
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  14. Another day, and another story like this that would have me voting for Putin or Orban over any Democrat if they would stop the 3rd world contamination.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Flip
    The Ryan/McCain/Jeb! Republicans aren't any better.
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  15. @julius caesar
    Some "British" students quoted here are: Sara Khan, Fatima Abid.

    Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, has looks very promising.

    Correction: Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, looks very promising.

    Read More
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  16. hhsiii says:
    @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    Yeah, I imagine White Man’s Burden bothers them more than If in its own right.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    A persistent fact about the SJW activists is that they seem entirely unfamiliar with what they denounce. Has any one of them actually read Kipling? If so, they would know that the "White Man's Burden" is [spoiler alert] not a desirable thing. It is kind of an anti-privilege, to use the Current Year terminology. To continue The Current Year-isms, it's an invisible knapsack, but in a bad way. Indeed, in a certain light, the poem could be a blueprint for the SJW movement:

    Go bind your sons to exile
    To serve your captives' need;
    ...
    To seek another's profit,
    And work another's gain.
    ...
    Take up the White Man's burden —
    No tawdry rule of kings,
    But toil of serf and sweeper —
    The tale of common things.
    The ports ye shall not enter,
    The roads ye shall not tread,
    Go make them with your living,
    And mark them with your dead.
    ...
    And reap his old reward:
    ...
    The hate of those ye guard —
    ...
    Take up the White Man's burden —
    Ye dare not stoop to less —
    Nor call too loud on Freedom
    To cloak your weariness;
    By all ye cry or whisper,
    By all ye leave or do,
    The silent, sullen peoples
    Shall weigh your gods and you.
    ...
    Comes now, to search your manhood
    Through all the thankless years
    Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
    The judgment of your peers!
     
    I mean, Jaysus, can the guy be any more woke?
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  17. Sue D.Nim says:

    Bridget found it inspirational rather than sexist.
    But that was back in the 1990s and much has changed since then.

    not really – Lefties have hated Kipling for years: “racist, imperialist, blah, blah, blah”

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  18. Those student leaders don’t know much, but they know the necessary minimum about Rudyard Kipling. He was a bad, bad, white man, who said bad words like “white man’s burden”, “Gunga Din” and “Mandalay.”

    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    An excerpt

    There has been more than one reason, as I have said, for the waning of Kipling’s popularity…there are…causes more insidious and more potent. He stands, not only politically for the highest type of Toryism,—at least, one fancies he does,—but for a lot of other outdated things: pious attachment to the soil; romantic love, enduring, clean outside and in; the beauty of childhood and the bitterer beauty of parenthood; patriotism unshrinking; and unashamed; loathing of the mob and the mob’s madness and meanness; the continuity of the English political tradition, from Magna Charta down; religious toleration; scrupulous perception of differences between race and race, type and type; the White Man’s Burden. And I doubt if, even now, he is an ardent believer in Woman Suffrage.

    Almost any one of these attitudes would have been enough to damn him with the British democracy. … One even realizes—though this time with amusement—why he is persona non grata to ‘the brittle intellectuals that crack beneath the strain.’ The intellectuals say that he is good at times for children, and often for the vulgar, and take their refuge in not taking him seriously.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/01/the-remarkable-rightness-of-rudyard-kipling/306597/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonym
    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    The empire was already in decline by that point, and had already started to go soft. Even by the mid 1800s I think. In 1807 the slave trade was abolished for example. Gandhi was having success with civil disobedience in South Africa in the 1890s. Convict transportation ended in 1868 in Australia. It began in the 1610s to the Americas.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    "pious attachment to the soil; romantic love, enduring, clean outside and in; the beauty of childhood and the bitterer beauty of parenthood; patriotism unshrinking"

    His short story "The Brushwood Boy" covers all of these bases, and a lot of others, too.
    , @Almost Missouri
    Yeah, what's not to like?

    1919's "outdated things" reads like a list of new natioanlism's greatest hits.

    , @Rosamond Vincy

    He stands, not only politically for the highest type of Toryism,—at least, one fancies he does,
     
    And therein lies the problem, for the people who fancy so, haven't actually read him.
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  19. Nothing new here. As Orwell observed back in the 1940s, “during five literary generations every enlightened person has despised [Kipling], and at the end of that time nine-tenths of those enlightened persons are forgotten and Kipling is in some sense still there.” (http://www.orwell.ru/library/reviews/kipling/english/e_rkip ) I’m willing to wager that Kipling will outlast this generation of goons as well.

    Incidentally, Orwell’s analysis of why the “enlightened” classes hated Kipling is still quite interesting. One crucial reason, Orwell argues, is that Kipling “sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them”, and he sides with the practical men who does the guarding and the feeding. Basically, the enlightened hated him for pointing out that they “mock the uniforms that guard you while you sleep”.

    As for “If” in particular, I like the poem as long as I manage to forget that the poem was a tribute to Leander Starr Jameson, the bumbling leader of the botched raid against the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek back in 1895 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid ). My ancestors easily whipped him and his mercenaries, and did not hold him in particularly high regard as a soldier. Contrary to the poem, he did not keep his head and could not wait. Somehow the British press managed to make a defeat look like a victory, and turned Leander into a lion. In fairness, he seems to have been a good medical man. His patients included Paul Kruger and Lobengula, and all spoke highly of him in that regard.

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    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    I’m willing to wager that Kipling will outlast this generation of goons as well.
     
    The Chinese will be reading Kip Ling's "Lift up the Yellow Man's Burden", long after "Europe" is extinguished, just a wasteland of waddling oil well pumpers swaddled in burquas.
    , @Heros
    Isn't amusing how they call this jew coup attempt a "raid"?

    Jameson was a high level mason as were Rhodes, Milner and Kipling. IIRC, Churchill too, whose father had extensive partnerships with the Rothschilds family in South Africa.

    Churchill's fake war heroism was hyped to get him into political power in exactly the manner that John Kerry's swift boat propaganda was later. Kerry of course is famously in Skull and Bones.

    Tim and Joe take a trip down the South Africa/Masonic rabbit hole:

    https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/tkelly6785757/episodes/2018-07-14T04_21_57-07_00
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  20. Anon[164] • Disclaimer says:

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  21. utu says:

    Peaceful multicultural societies don’t exist, Dutch FM says in explosive leaked speech

    https://www.rt.com/news/433645-dutch-fm-multicultural-societies/
    I have asked my ministry this and I will pose the question here as well,” Blok can be heard saying in the video. “Give me an example of a multi-ethnic or a multi-cultural society, in which the original population still lives, and where there is a peaceful cohabitation. I don’t know one.”

    The minister went further and said it might be all fun and games to go to a “Turkish bakery on Sunday” if you live in a well-off part of a city, but a “number of side effects” promptly become tangible if one lives in a migrant-packed neighborhood.

    “You very quickly reach the limits of what a society can take,” Blok stated.

    One of the event goers gave Suriname as an example of a peaceful multicultural society. Bok, however, brushed off the claim, branding the former Dutch colony “a failed state.”

    “And that is largely to do with the ethnic divisions,” Blok said.

    Singapore was then given as an example of such a society. Blok agreed with that to a certain degree, stating, however, that the tiny South Asian country is actually very careful in its migration policies. “Singapore is indeed a mini-country, extremely selective in its migration,” Blok stated. “They do not allow poor migrants. Yes, eventually, possibly for cleaning.”

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  22. mr. wild says:

    “If” was apparently Che Guevara’s favorite poem to recite.

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  23. Tiny Duck says:

    Kipling was an imperialist racist pantload

    His work should be spit on for the odious trite bilge it is

    There is more to literature than dead white males

    You would do well to read it

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Tiny, if only you had a son who was moved aside on an escalator by a white woman then you could write at the level of Ta Nehisi Coates. "Odious trite bilge" indeed.
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  24. Compared to Maya Angelou, Kipling is Shakespear. But come on–Kipling’s poetry is doggerel and his sentiments are sententious. No wonder he was so popular. IMO Kipling’s immortality rests on his novel Kim and, for the kids, the Just So Stories.

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    • Disagree: Cloudbuster
    • Replies: @Anon
    Hey, stop already with the cultural appropriation of the great Sri Lankan playwright Shakesperera.

    But Kipling's great ability is precisely because of his lack of depth. He perfectly exemplifies what Duhem called the "shallow but ample mind", which typifies (according to Duhem) the genius of the English people. So Kipling took the normal thoughts that occurred to him as he read the newspapers or as he generally went along in life --he was a great observer-- and wrote up, inimitably, "what oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed" (to quote a famous cleric).
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  25. Arclight says:

    90% of the efforts to ‘de-colonize’ literature, science, etc. is motivated by embarrassment of the lack of comparable achievement by the noble savages most admired by the left. The other 10% is the rage this feeling produces. Success is oppression, if it’s by the wrong people.

    On a semi-related note, I finally got around to seeing Black Panther, which seemed overall like just another run of the mill superhero/comic film that is only notable for the black/African superiority spin. It wasn’t bad but it wasn’t all that great, either, although I did feel that if a white director had produced a film in which the supposedly advanced African tribes seemed to just be futuristic versions of stereotypical conceptions of more traditional/primitive tribes, he would have gotten pilloried, especially the group that chose to identify with gorillas (!) and expressed themselves through menacing grunting.

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    • Replies: @Wilkey
    My favorite aspect of Black Panther was that the tribe that decides to support Killmonger against "the good guy" is called "the Border Tribe," which struck me as an explicit effort to bash defenders of borders.

    But most hilarious of all is the line at the end of the movie: "But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers."

    After watching a movie 99.998% is ridiculously impossible we're suddenly supposed to be taking advice on real world matters. I'd like to see if Bob Iger or anyone else involved in the making of Black Panther has barriers in front of their house. It could make a great meme.
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  26. Anon[787] • Disclaimer says:

    Pearl’s are such a buzzkill to swine.

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  27. ChrisZ says:

    I love it that Kipling plays a recurring role on this blog, thanks to the appreciation of our host and so many commenters (and, of course, thanks to Kipling’s evergreen timeliness). Glad to see Keats on Chapman’s Homer here, too.

    Even the vandalism of philistines can’t erase such greatness.

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  28. Young women get an emotional high out of enforcing social rules in a way that gets them attention and defies “Daddy”. Our crappy liberal-libertine consumer culture gives them nothing but encouragement, so it escalates.

    This girl should be sent to uplift Manchester’s Muslim community.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Maybe they just get a high from enforcing social rules. Full Stop.

    Why is that?
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  29. Orwell’s essay on Kipling is worth reading. It appears in many of the compact Orwell anthologies, but is assigned to students less frequently than (say) “politics of the English language” or “Shooting an elephant.”

    Orwell thought Kipling’s line “Making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep” was a keeper–both the line and the underlying issue referred to.

    It seems to me that Kipling is a bit like Twain in the sense that the determined reader, especially a hurried and superficial reader with an ax to grind, will find many opportunities to take offense and become indignant.

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    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    It is here: http://orwell.ru/library/reviews/kipling/english/e_rkip
    , @Anonymous
    But Orwell didn't really seem to think much of Kipling, calling him a good "B" writer who had a knack for turning a phrase.
    Orwell's 1942 essay on Kipling was in response to Edmund Wilson's musings on Kipling in the Atlantic the year before, a two-part essay collected in The Wound and the Bow under the title The Kipling that Nobody Read, and very well worth reading.
    I came to Kipling with the assumption that he was a second-rate limey blowhard of a well-known type that is even represented among commenters here on iSteve.
    But he was not. He certainly was not.
    My favorite of his novels, The Light That Failed, still sticks with me, its imagery vivid and unfaded, its worldview incorporated into mine in a way that that of few novels ever have been.
    Anyone who has not read Kipling should read him. You'll find something important to you.

    W

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  30. OT:
    Now that White people are starting to see themselves as an ethnic group, it’s time to cool it with the identity politics, folks. No, we’re just getting started.

    Obama Rebukes Identity Politics

    “You can’t do this if you just out of hand disregard what your opponent has to say from the start,” he continued. “And you can’t do it if you insist that those who aren’t like you because they are white or they are male, somehow there is no way they can understand what I’m feeling, that somehow they lack standing to speak on certain matters.”

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/barack-obama-rebukes-identity-politics/

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    • Replies: @Lowe
    The danger of being a very successful person is being surrounded by sycophants, who won't tell you you're steering the ship into an iceberg until it is too late.

    Are his remarks now too little, too late, to stave off disaster for the Democratic party? He had so much to do with setting their disastrous course.
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  31. Anonym says:
    @PiltdownMan
    Those student leaders don't know much, but they know the necessary minimum about Rudyard Kipling. He was a bad, bad, white man, who said bad words like "white man's burden", "Gunga Din" and "Mandalay."

    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    An excerpt


    There has been more than one reason, as I have said, for the waning of Kipling's popularity...there are...causes more insidious and more potent. He stands, not only politically for the highest type of Toryism,—at least, one fancies he does,—but for a lot of other outdated things: pious attachment to the soil; romantic love, enduring, clean outside and in; the beauty of childhood and the bitterer beauty of parenthood; patriotism unshrinking; and unashamed; loathing of the mob and the mob's madness and meanness; the continuity of the English political tradition, from Magna Charta down; religious toleration; scrupulous perception of differences between race and race, type and type; the White Man's Burden. And I doubt if, even now, he is an ardent believer in Woman Suffrage.

    Almost any one of these attitudes would have been enough to damn him with the British democracy. ... One even realizes—though this time with amusement—why he is persona non grata to 'the brittle intellectuals that crack beneath the strain.' The intellectuals say that he is good at times for children, and often for the vulgar, and take their refuge in not taking him seriously.
     

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/01/the-remarkable-rightness-of-rudyard-kipling/306597/

    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    The empire was already in decline by that point, and had already started to go soft. Even by the mid 1800s I think. In 1807 the slave trade was abolished for example. Gandhi was having success with civil disobedience in South Africa in the 1890s. Convict transportation ended in 1868 in Australia. It began in the 1610s to the Americas.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    Another barometer of the softening of the British Empire - the death penalty.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_Kingdom

    Reform can be traced to 1808. And in the USA with the Declaration of Independence a couple decades earlier. Which goes to my point that the decadence and softening of people begins much earlier than apparent peaks of empire.
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  32. @PiltdownMan
    Those student leaders don't know much, but they know the necessary minimum about Rudyard Kipling. He was a bad, bad, white man, who said bad words like "white man's burden", "Gunga Din" and "Mandalay."

    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    An excerpt


    There has been more than one reason, as I have said, for the waning of Kipling's popularity...there are...causes more insidious and more potent. He stands, not only politically for the highest type of Toryism,—at least, one fancies he does,—but for a lot of other outdated things: pious attachment to the soil; romantic love, enduring, clean outside and in; the beauty of childhood and the bitterer beauty of parenthood; patriotism unshrinking; and unashamed; loathing of the mob and the mob's madness and meanness; the continuity of the English political tradition, from Magna Charta down; religious toleration; scrupulous perception of differences between race and race, type and type; the White Man's Burden. And I doubt if, even now, he is an ardent believer in Woman Suffrage.

    Almost any one of these attitudes would have been enough to damn him with the British democracy. ... One even realizes—though this time with amusement—why he is persona non grata to 'the brittle intellectuals that crack beneath the strain.' The intellectuals say that he is good at times for children, and often for the vulgar, and take their refuge in not taking him seriously.
     

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/01/the-remarkable-rightness-of-rudyard-kipling/306597/

    “pious attachment to the soil; romantic love, enduring, clean outside and in; the beauty of childhood and the bitterer beauty of parenthood; patriotism unshrinking”

    His short story “The Brushwood Boy” covers all of these bases, and a lot of others, too.

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  33. g2k says:

    “a man my son”…. a sexist as well

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  34. Ah, “student leaders” did this. Well of course they did, but knowing what the administration would think of it couldn’t have hurt.

    “Manchester University declined to comment, saying it was a matter for the students’ union.”
    “A spokesman for Manchester’s SU said: ‘We understand that we made a mistake in our approach to a recent piece of artwork by failing to garner student opinion at the start of a new project. We accept that the result was inappropriate and for that we apologise’”

    Suppose some students decided that “Still I Rise” didn’t represent them, noted that nobody had “garnered their opinion” on the new poem, and went ahead and painted over it on their own initiative. Does anybody think that would be a “matter for the students’ union,” justified by a “failure to consult students?” Obviously that would be vandalism and it would carry legal consequences. It’s infinitely good to be “who” and infinitely bad to be “whom.”

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  35. Tulip says:

    We know the Revolution has attained its end when the last poet is strangled in the entrails of the last comedian!

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    • Agree: kaganovitch
    • LOL: fish
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  36. AndrewR says:

    When the Saxon began to hate… himself, he encouraged this sort of humiliating subjugation of the Saxon race to uglier and stupider barbarian invaders.

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  37. Wilkey says:
    @Arclight
    90% of the efforts to 'de-colonize' literature, science, etc. is motivated by embarrassment of the lack of comparable achievement by the noble savages most admired by the left. The other 10% is the rage this feeling produces. Success is oppression, if it's by the wrong people.

    On a semi-related note, I finally got around to seeing Black Panther, which seemed overall like just another run of the mill superhero/comic film that is only notable for the black/African superiority spin. It wasn't bad but it wasn't all that great, either, although I did feel that if a white director had produced a film in which the supposedly advanced African tribes seemed to just be futuristic versions of stereotypical conceptions of more traditional/primitive tribes, he would have gotten pilloried, especially the group that chose to identify with gorillas (!) and expressed themselves through menacing grunting.

    My favorite aspect of Black Panther was that the tribe that decides to support Killmonger against “the good guy” is called “the Border Tribe,” which struck me as an explicit effort to bash defenders of borders.

    But most hilarious of all is the line at the end of the movie: “But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers.”

    After watching a movie 99.998% is ridiculously impossible we’re suddenly supposed to be taking advice on real world matters. I’d like to see if Bob Iger or anyone else involved in the making of Black Panther has barriers in front of their house. It could make a great meme.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rob McX

    “But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers.”

    After watching a movie 99.998% is ridiculously impossible we’re suddenly supposed to be taking advice on real world matters. I’d like to see if Bob Iger or anyone else involved in the making of Black Panther has barriers in front of their house.
     
    "Bridges for my country, barriers for my house". Or "bridges for thee, barriers for me".
    , @Horace Stapleton
    I don't know why any self-respecting white person would go and see the movie black panther. I don't know what race you are but if you're white I would imagine there's better things to do with your money.
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  38. I once read a John Huston interview from 1952 where he was asked what stories would he want to make into a movie and he replied “The Man Who Would be King”.

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  39. robot says: • Website

    James Joyce agreed: “I believe the three writers of the nineteenth century who had the greatest natural talents were D’Annunzio, Kipling, and Tolstoy”

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  40. Rudyard the Racist. Maybe Rudyard will takes its place alongside Becky in progressive onomastics.

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    • Replies: @Cortes
    A piece of Kipling imperialist doggerel associated with H. Rider Haggard is the McGuffin featured in the third of Lawrence Block’s “Burglar” series.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Rhodenbarr

    Very amusing.
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  41. In today’s racism news, Trevor Noah joked to the French ambassadorxir that Africa won the World Cup, not France.

    Much mirth follows.

    Uber white-boy pitcher Josh Hader has been sentenced to a re-education camp for quoting rap lyrics on his twitter feed when he was 17. The NY Mets had 50 cent, author of the transcendentally brilliant song, “I Smell Pussy,” to throw out the first pitch at one of their games.

    https://nypost.com/2018/07/07/mets-politically-correct-hypocrisy-knows-no-bounds/

    (Can’t figure out how Mushnick has survived this long.)

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  42. Ragno says:

    I’ve learned to laugh at the horrors of modernity and the collapse of civilization – or at least try to – but I’m sorry: this is the lowest ebb we have yet sunk to, and I can’t see any way to feel anything but profound, gun-in-mouth depression for the next few weeks. (Don’t worry…so long as I have Kipling on my shelves, I’ll save all my bullets for worthier targets.)

    Still…..even if we were to bodily drag every cowardly race-traitor and modern-dress orc off to the cliff’s edge, and toss them all into the sea, it won’t have made this – any of this – unhappen.

    I know kids aren’t responsible for the idiocies that our society now forces them to marinate in until it’s all they ‘know’; but I can’t believe there isn’t some secret part of their deepest selves that looks around in rage and disgust and insistently shouts ‘no!’ That belief may well be sadly naive, but it’s also our last hope.

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  43. Pat Casey says:

    Speaking of great English writers and their legacy…

    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/st.-gilbert-in-coming-weeks-the-fate-of-g.k.-chesterton-will-be-known

    St. Gilbert? In Coming Weeks, the Fate of G.K. Chesterton Will Be Known
    Is the process of canonization about to start for the British writer?

    K.V. Turley
    JUL. 18, 2018

    Is he or is he not on the road to being canonized?

    In the coming weeks, the fate of Gilbert Keith Chesterton will be known.

    Soon, all eyes will turn upon Canon John Udris as he presents his written report to the bishop of Northampton, England, with, thereafter, a decision being made.

    For the past five years, Canon Udris has been the man tasked by Bishop Peter Doyle to explore whether Chesterton was a saint. Before embarking on this latest investigation, Canon Udris was already well-acquainted with the life and writings of the author, not least because the cleric had been the parish priest of Beaconsfield, the English town approximately 25 miles northwest of London, where Chesterton lived with his wife, Frances, from 1909 until his death in 1936.

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  44. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    So do many “brown” men. I wonder how much “Gehazi” has to do with his incipient unpersoning?(Probably not all that much).

    “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorites too, with “The Grave of the Hundred Head” and any number of other classics including all the WWI epitaphs. But nothing quite comes up to “Recessional”.

    This bust of Kipling stands near his birthplace: http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/mumbaipix.htm

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  45. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:

    Seriously, these things start looking like youth activity during early days of Cultural Revolution. So much for West winning the Cold War.

    Angelou’s “poem” is not even a poetry. No defined rhythmic structure and barely any rhyming.

    What is it in English language that makes authors break rhyming so frequently? Surely Kipling realized that “virtue” does not rhyme with “you”. There are numerous examples of this even in Shakespeare.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    "Virtue" does, however, rhyme perfectly well with "hurt you".

    Eye rime is a completely different issue and its use is subject to any number of considerations. But it's certainly true that English is much less of a naturally rhyming language than, say, Spanish or Italian. On the other hand our rhythmic effects are quite impossible in, say, French, which is mostly devoid of stress accents. Our poetic tradition (end-rhymed with accentual-syllabic metre) derives from medieval Latin verse, which displaced the native alliterative and accentual forms common to Anglo-Saxon England. At least we don't have a quantitative system which would make no sense at all in English; it barely even makes sense in Latin.
    , @sfoil
    Milton didn't rhyme Paradise Lost, even including a prefatory "defense" for doing so. Of course Shakespeare used blank verse in his plays as well. Much later, the Modernists knew what they were doing. The problem isn't good poets altering or abandoning classical forms, but lessers aping them.
    , @Holden McGroin III
    Virtue does rhyme with you. And Shakespeare’s sonnets rhyme perfectly as long as you talk like a pirate. Google “original pronunciation”
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  46. While we may lament this and other similar incidents, I’m not sure why we would be surprised. During the invasion – while the war is still being fought – the invaders don’t generally pay homage to the great historical figures of the native population. They tear them down, both to encourage their own troops and to discourage their opponents.

    It’s only after the war is over and the native people enslaved or brought to heel that the invader can examine the native’s culture and appreciate its accomplishments.

    Granted, I’m sure that there are some exceptions – the Romans and Greeks come to mind or the German tribes overrunning the Roman Empire – but, in general, you shouldn’t expect invading tribes to stand in reverance before your great historical figures, certainly not while the war is still being waged.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Granted, I’m sure that there are some exceptions – the Romans and Greeks come to mind...
     
    They certainly came to Miss Angelou's mind:

    So say the Asian, the Hispanic, the Jew
    The African and Native American, the Sioux,
    The Catholic, the Muslim, the French, the Greek
    The Irish, the Rabbi, the Priest, the Sheikh...
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  47. Problem with Kipling is that he was such a cheerleader for invasion and colonialism. Pretty typical back then that the artistic community including poets would support military aggression. I’m actually shocked that they took his poem down, since so many Brits remain convinced that they were in India to help install high-speed Internet.

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    • Replies: @Dave from Oz
    "White Man's Burden" is not cheerleading for colonialism. It's the opposite, it's an ironic condemnation of the notion that it's white man's job to civilise the natives, it jeers at the idea. Its message, crudely put, is "Fuck those people. Fuck them." .

    Have a read of it.
    , @julius caesar
    The Brits did help India.

    1. India, after the decline of Mughal dynasty, was continually invaded from the western Asia, Nadir Shar, Ahmed Shah Abdali, etc. Indian rulers were sufficiently ruthless to exploit native population but kept getting their ass kicked by the invaders. British provided at least a hundred years of relative peace.

    2. Most of India was fragmented into minor kingdoms. The major power, Marathas, were divided into various clans. British (to some extent) unified the country into one administrative unit. Most of the Indian administration, from IAS system to courts, is a legacy of the British raj.

    3. Modern education system that produced the future leaders & administrators of India. Most native Indian princes and princelings tended to be vicious cunts who spent far too much time with harlots and hunting. Had the British left without leaving behind a new educated Indian elite class, the country would have reverted back to feudalism.

    4. British effectively defanged all princely states making unification of India after Independence possible. Had there been no British Raj, India would have been divided into 25 new countries instead of merely three.

    While one could argue that British did it not out of altruism but their own self interest, it is undeniable that Raj was a net positive to India, something Brits can take pride in.

    , @Anon
    since so many Brits remain convinced that they were in India to help install high-speed Internet.

    They were, at least its earlier century equivalents.

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  48. One of the greatest poems in any language, never mind English. Though the subject matter is totally different, in terms of profundity “If” ranks up there with Grey’s “Elegy.”

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  49. @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    I’ve never heard of this Kipling poem. Upon reading it though–a good choice.

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  50. Let us sit upon the ground, and tell sad stories of the death of nations; how some have been taken over by cultural Marxist dementia; some turned into a patchwork of quarreling identity groups; some haunted by the ghosts of past sins, real and imagined; some poisoned by their politicians; some sleeping through entertainment and video games kill’d; all murder’d: for within the hollow skull that empties the temples of a godless land keeps Death his court.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Gravity, sit on the ground....legs crossed in, dare I say it "Indian style." You racist.
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  51. I’m too untalented, but someone has to write the SJW’s version of “If,” starting with something like

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    “Where are you from?” and call them racist too;

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    • Agree: Percy Gryce
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    If you can draw a swastika on a bathroom wall
    Yet be the most outraged of all when it is discovered
    If you can be a 200lb black lesbian
    But declare you don't feel safe...
    If daddy is a wealthy diversity executive
    While you blame your low grades on "colonialism"
    , @Hockamaw

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    “Where are you from?” and call them racist too;
     
    Ha! A perfect ballad for our times.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    “If” by Obama the Orator:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poz6W0znOfk
    , @Giuseppe
    An SJW's If should end something like this...

    If you can grill a cis white male nitwit
    With sixty seconds worth of lashing tongue
    Yours is the dearth of every noble sentiment
    And what's more, you'll be a ma'am, my son.

    , @Rob McX
    I like that. I've tried writing the ending:

    If you can view your Y chromosome and genitals
    And treat those two impostors just the same
    Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it;
    And - which is more - you'll be a trans, my son!
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  52. Anon[324] • Disclaimer says:

    This is the UK, but I predict that at some point under similar circumstances in the U.S, a college president will, overriding all underlings, simply expel, permanently, with no transferable credit, a group of such vandals, with no public explanation. He will become an un-fireable hero. There may be lawsuits, but universities have lawyers, and these things can be dragged out for years. And felony criminal complaints are also possible against litigious vandals who can’t take a hint.

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  53. @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    This is just the kind of stuff they’re talking about!

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone’s radar,or has he already been “un personned?”

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    • Replies: @Tex

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone’s radar,or has he already been “un personned?”
     
    London seems to fly beneath the radar, but you think he'd make a perfect target, racially conscious, devoted to masculinity, and popular with traditional readers. The funny part is, he was hugely popular in the Soviet Union, thanks in part to London's avowed socialist politics. Lenin was a fan, albeit with reservations. I was just reading about kids enjoying Jack London books in Stalingrad in the days before the Wehrmacht hit the city.
    , @Twinkie

    Jack London
     
    How could I not love the works of a man who wrote this?

    http://london.sonoma.edu/writings/Revolution/yellow.html
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    We read "To Build a Fire" in high school, and my mom got me "The Call of the Wild" when I was in Jr. High, but maybe he's been labeled a thought-criminal since then.
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  54. OT – Guardian defends Soros noch einmal. A well meaning chap …

    “Daniel Bessner teaches in the Henry M Jackson School of International Studies at the University of Washington.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/06/the-george-soros-philosophy-and-its-fatal-flaw

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  55. BenKenobi says:

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  56. Two from Kipling that Jerry liked to remind us of. (men seldom need educating but they often need reminding)

    http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_oldissue.htm

    http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_copybook.htm

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  57. They’re not changing our culture. They’re trying to erase it–literally.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    And who's letting them get away with this? Why the English cucks!!! The Great Shuttening of the West continues and all we hear are crickets from the cucks.

    Harry married the negress Cheddar Woman. Some black woman was named the winner of Ms. Universe Great Britian contest. We will have to shut down everything in the West. It will be interesting to see what will be resurrected.
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  58. anon[202] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    a

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    a
     
    A+.
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  59. One of the best poems ever written. Only a barbarian could hate it.

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  60. If they wanted a POC poem,why did pick such a stupid one? There is lots of good poetry by non-whites. If these young uns are supposed to be educated and woke,they must have a wide variety of POC lit at hand.
    Are they trolling the academy a bit? Are they dumb?
    I used to read a few blacks like the Harlem poet Countee Cullen. He was legitimately good.

    I’m sure his stuff beats “oil wells pumping in my living room.” (Which seems to have a vague and disgusting sexual tone. Is it me?)

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Because they don't want smart POCs. They failed to read correctly the message of "The White Man's Burden" (probably because they only read the title and not the poem) and they want to excoriate other whites for their oppression and evil*. POCs (who in all honesty probably like Kipling) are actually merely incidental to the campaign against the evil white people.

    *Since the poem was written about the time of the American annexation of the Philippines one common interpretation is that Kipling is telling the US: "Okay, you've had your fun criticizing how everybody else is treating their imperial subjects-- now you try it for a change".
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  61. Lot says:

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

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    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Troll: TWS
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.
    , @Lot
    I had a look at the BBC 100 favorite poems of Britons referenced in the article. I was pleasantly surprised by the near lack of modern and PC dreck, instead lots of Olde England romantic stuff and militarism. Steve's most quoted Ozymandias is no. 30

    Sorry if my dislike for No 1 offends. Road Not Taken might well top an American version of the list and is bad for similar reasons. The best American poem on the British list is Song of Hiawatha.

    , @dfordoom

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.
     
    Kipling was a wonderful and complex writer (and a magnificent writer of short stories) but "If" is a pretty awful cringe-inducing poem.
    , @Anonymous
    Kipling was more of a popular writer who wrote a lot of doggerel, rather than one of the great literary figures. Although being popular doesn't necessarily preclude one from being great. Dickens and Trollope wrote for popular audiences.
    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    Outsong In The Jungle is my favorite:

    BALOO

    FOR the sake of him who showed
    One wise Frog the Jungle-Road,
    Keep the Law the Man-Pack make
    For thy blind old Baloo's sake!
    Clean or tainted, hot or stale,
    Hold it as it were the Trail,
    Through the day and through the night,
    Questing neither left nor right.
    For the sake of him who loves
    Thee beyond all else that moves,
    When thy Pack would make thee pain,
    Say: " Tabaqui sings again."
    When thy Pack would work thee ill,
    Say: "Shere Khan is yet to kill."
    When the knife is drawn to slay,
    Keep the Law and go thy way.
    (Root and honey, palm and spathe,
    Guard a cub from harm and scathe!)
    Wood and Water, Wind and Tree,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!

    KAA

    Anger is the egg of Fear--
    Only lidless eyes see clear.
    Cobra-poison none may leech--
    Even so with Cobra-speech.
    Open talk shall call to thee
    Strength, whose mate is Courtesy.
    Send no lunge beyond thy length.
    Lend no rotten bough thy strength.
    Gauge thy gape with buck or goat,
    Lest thine eye should choke thy throat.
    After gorging, wouldst thou sleep ?
    Look thy den be hid and deep,
    Lest a wrong, by thee forgot,
    Draw thy killer to the spot.
    East and West and North and South,
    Wash thy hide and close thy mouth.
    (Pit and rift and blue pool-brim,
    Middle-Jungle follow him!)
    Wood and Water, Wind and Tree,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!

    BAGHEERA

    In the cage my life began;
    Well I know the worth of Man.
    By the Broken Lock that freed--
    Man-cub, ware the Man-cub's breed!
    Scenting-dew or starlight pale,
    Choose no tangled tree-cat trail.
    Pack or council, hunt or den,
    Cry no truce with Jackal-Men.
    Feed them silence when they say:
    "Come with us an easy way."
    Feed them silence when they seek
    Help of thine to hurt the weak.
    Make no bandar's boast of skill;
    Hold thy peace above the kill.
    Let nor call nor song nor sign
    Turn thee from thy hunting-line.
    (Morning mist or twilight clear,
    Serve him, Wardens of the Deer!)
    Wood and Water, Wind and Tree,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!

    THE THREE

    On the trail that thou must tread
    To the threshold of our dread,
    Where the Flower blossoms red;
    Through the nights when thou shalt lie
    Prisoned from our Mother-sky,
    Hearing us, thy loves, go by;
    In the dawns when thou. shalt wake
    To the toil thou canst not break,
    Heartsick for the Jungle's sake;
    Wood and Water, Wind air Tree,
    Wisdom, Strength, and Courtesy,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!
    _________________________________

    I like middlebrow. Shakespeare was probably middlebrow. Or maybe Shakespeare was highbrow in a society that knew the importance of transmitting highbrow culture to middlebrow people.

    Kipling is a great example of the elite preaching what they practice. Do we have anybody anywhere who comes even close to Kipling's stature?
    , @vinteuil

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow.
     
    Well, it's certainly every pseud's idea of "hokey & middlebrow."
    , @AnotherDad

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.
     
    What's wrong with middlebrow?

    The truth is most of the "truths" people can and need to learn aren't exactly rocket science, they really are "middlebrow".

    Off the top of my head:
    -- treat other people like you want to be treated
    -- you are responsible for yourself--got a problem? look in the mirror
    -- clean up after yourself
    -- try hard
    -- build your brain, read, study, learn, educate yourself--keep learning all the time
    -- listen--you don't know it all
    -- not everyone is like you, not everyone agrees with you, and sometimes they are right
    -- learn from your mistakes; even better other people's mistakes
    -- be a good neighbor, but …
    -- don't be a doormat
    -- stand up for yourself, but …
    -- learn to keep your mouth shut when appropriate
    -- choose your battles
    -- be productive, do useful work, create, build
    -- try it yourself ... but ask for help if you really can't figure it out
    -- finish
    -- be true to your commitments
    -- work hard, but …
    -- life isn't just work--leave time for recreation, hobbies, friends and most of all family
    -- have fun, but ...
    -- real happiness is not the same as pleasure
    -- drink … in moderation
    -- eat … in moderation
    -- exercise
    -- real happiness--for most--will come from building a family
    -- people are different
    -- most people aren't like you, don't think like you
    -- you can't solve other people's problems, fix other people's lives
    -- if you are "saving the world" … you are making it worse
    -- "saving the world" won't make you happy
    -- to really "save the world", be productive, take care of your family, neighborhood and nation
    -- stay out of other peoples' business
    -- keep foreigners from invading and settling your nation**

    ... and yet many people just won't "get" this middlebrow wisdom.

    (**Yes Lot, i'm looking at you here.)
    , @tomv
    Ah, the good ol' "middlebrow" insult. You can use it against anything popular, and poseurs of all stripes do so with relish.

    Tom Wolfe is middlebrow. Carl Sagan is middlebrow. Vivaldi is middlebrow.

    If Shakespeare were still packing houses today, he, too, would be middlebrow.

    The Fringe's contempt for the Core is nothing new, but then you went ahead and put Maya Angelou's dross in the same category as Kipling's If.

    Then it's no longer Fringe vs Core, but Lunacy vs Sanity.
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  62. Thomas Hardy was a literary genius; Rudyard Kipling was a propaganda twat for the British Empire.

    Young morons attacking Kipling? I want some of these young anti-Kipling morons to go bananas and detonate the debt bomb. The crazier some of the young people go, the more likely they are to repudiate the government debt. The Bank of England has been engaging in the same type of monetary extremism that the Federal Reserve Bank and the other globalized central banks have been doing.

    In the United States, trillion dollar deficits are just around the corner. Hundreds of trillions of dollars of total government debt and liabilities remain unpayable. Let the young turds say Whitey is bad and we ain’t paying the debt.

    Young White patriots will do what they must to restore European Christendom and cancel the debts. The answer to Odious Debt is a Debt Jubilee. And yes, most of you born before 1965 will be financially liquidated. Tough shit, you cowards deserve what is coming to you.

    Turning away from European Christendom? Pulling up the roots of the European Christian people? Let those bastards go hog wild crazy! Smoke them out and then deport those anti-White bastards. Young White rats attacking their own people and their own ancestors should be deported to Africa immediately and swiftly. That’s a pun, folks!

    The way European Christendom is going to be saved and rejuvenated is during the tumult when the asset bubbles and debt cooked up by the globalized central banks goes belly up.

    If you are not talking about central banking you are full of shit or in the pocket of the globalizers.

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    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Henry's Cat
    What's your literary opinion of How to Win Friends and Influence People?
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  63. Screwtape says:

    Indeed. They do not “feel” oppressed. They feel shame, envy, and covetousness.

    Like the narcissist, they gaze into the pond of western civilization and see beauty and goodness, they see a depth of life and a posterity that flows from headwaters they know are not theirs.

    And they know that the beauty they see is not theirs either. So the deep shame wells up and they resent this beautiful place, this oasis filled by a river through time that tells none of their stories, reflects none of their kind.

    And so it all must be stripped down, painted over with desperate and furious scratchings of their cobbled attempts to emulate this beauty.

    Except they can’t hide their shame, their resemtment and thus their art, as all of their expressions follow, is shallow, trivial, and ultimately: hideous.

    Sad, that they are compelled to destroy and not create their own, if even quaintly delusional wakandian rewrites.

    But this is the poison of leftism. It not only stokes the fires of envy, it forecloses all truth and beauty, past, present, and future.

    So they are cut off from those things that may shine, the beauty that might be plucked from their own history, or culled from the ether of these salad years we enjoy, by those who are not darkened by jealousy and rage.

    So with the death of all histories, the future is bleak indeed. What happens when the narcissists run out of supply?

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    • Agree: Almost Missouri
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  64. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm too untalented, but someone has to write the SJW's version of "If," starting with something like

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    "Where are you from?" and call them racist too;

    If you can draw a swastika on a bathroom wall
    Yet be the most outraged of all when it is discovered
    If you can be a 200lb black lesbian
    But declare you don’t feel safe…
    If daddy is a wealthy diversity executive
    While you blame your low grades on “colonialism”

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  65. Thomas Hardy was descended from Normans.

    Rudyard Kipling was a Yorkshire turd with a habitational surname. The Kipling people were cottagers of perhaps Saxon blood.

    Let the young scum in England attack Kipling.

    The larger point understood by perceptive minds is that the ruling class will allow the young dirtbags to attack Kipling and White people, but the ruling class and its propaganda outlets will not let the young attack the unpayable government debt and privatization schemes and the Bank of England and mass immigration and multiculturalism and the ruling class itself.

    The English ruling class is just as evil as the ruling class of the American Empire.

    Thankfully, the ruling classes in both England and the United States will soon be removed from power.

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  66. @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.

     

    I think that this is Kipling's best anti-SJW poem:


    The Gods of the Copybook Headings

    AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
    I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
    Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

    We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
    That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
    But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
    So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

    We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

    With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
    They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
    They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
    So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.


    When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

    On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
    (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
    Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

    Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
    And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
    That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;


    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

    , @syonredux

    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.
     
    Here's another good one:

    The Stranger

    The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk--
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind.

    The men of my own stock,
    They may do ill or well,
    But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
    They are used to the lies I tell;
    And we do not need interpreters
    When we go to buy or sell.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control--
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.


    The men of my own stock,
    Bitter bad they may be,
    But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
    And see the things I see;
    And whatever I think of them and their likes
    They think of the likes of me.

    This was my father's belief
    And this is also mine:
    Let the corn be all one sheaf--
    And the grapes be all one vine,
    Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
    By bitter bread and wine.
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  67. Lot says:
    @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    I had a look at the BBC 100 favorite poems of Britons referenced in the article. I was pleasantly surprised by the near lack of modern and PC dreck, instead lots of Olde England romantic stuff and militarism. Steve’s most quoted Ozymandias is no. 30

    Sorry if my dislike for No 1 offends. Road Not Taken might well top an American version of the list and is bad for similar reasons. The best American poem on the British list is Song of Hiawatha.

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    • Agree: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @syonredux
    Frost's best work is not his most popular:

    Directive

    Back out of all this now too much for us,
    Back in a time made simple by the loss
    Of detail, burned, dissolved, and broken off
    Like graveyard marble sculpture in the weather,
    There is a house that is no more a house
    Upon a farm that is no more a farm
    And in a town that is no more a town.
    The road there, if you'll let a guide direct you
    Who only has at heart your getting lost,
    May seem as if it should have been a quarry -
    Great monolithic knees the former town
    Long since gave up pretense of keeping covered.
    And there's a story in a book about it:
    Besides the wear of iron wagon wheels
    The ledges show lines ruled southeast-northwest,
    The chisel work of an enormous Glacier
    That braced his feet against the Arctic Pole.
    You must not mind a certain coolness from him
    Still said to haunt this side of Panther Mountain.
    Nor need you mind the serial ordeal
    Of being watched from forty cellar holes

    As if by eye pairs out of forty firkins.
    As for the woods' excitement over you
    That sends light rustle rushes to their leaves,
    Charge that to upstart inexperience.
    Where were they all not twenty years ago?
    They think too much of having shaded out
    A few old pecker-fretted apple trees.
    Make yourself up a cheering song of how
    Someone's road home from work this once was,
    Who may be just ahead of you on foot
    Or creaking with a buggy load of grain.
    The height of the adventure is the height
    Of country where two village cultures faded
    Into each other. Both of them are lost.
    And if you're lost enough to find yourself
    By now, pull in your ladder road behind you
    And put a sign up CLOSED to all but me.
    Then make yourself at home. The only field
    Now left's no bigger than a harness gall.
    First there's the children's house of make-believe,
    Some shattered dishes underneath a pine,

    The playthings in the playhouse of the children.
    Weep for what little things could make them glad.
    Then for the house that is no more a house,
    But only a belilaced cellar hole,
    Now slowly closing like a dent in dough.
    This was no playhouse but a house in earnest.
    Your destination and your destiny's
    A brook that was the water of the house,
    Cold as a spring as yet so near its source,
    Too lofty and original to rage.
    (We know the valley streams that when aroused
    Will leave their tatters hung on barb and thorn.)
    I have kept hidden in the instep arch
    Of an old cedar at the waterside
    A broken drinking goblet like the Grail
    Under a spell so the wrong ones can't find it,
    So can't get saved, as Saint Mark says they mustn't.
    (I stole the goblet from the children's playhouse.)
    Here are your waters and your watering place.
    Drink and be whole again beyond confusion.
    , @Ganderson
    "Ozymandias, King of Ants"
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    Alas that was the 1990s - very few of those poets will feature on the modern English curriculum in the UK. Gone will be Tennyson, de la Mare, Brooke, Gray, Masefield.

    Jenny Joseph's wishful thinking will still be there, and Larkin's This Be The Verse. There'll be a lot more Carol Ann Duffy, and a lot more agitprop like this (in my kids schoolbooks)


    Excuse me
    Standing on one leg
    I'm half-caste

    Explain yuself
    Wha yu mean
    When yu say half-caste
    Yu mean when picasso
    Mix red an green
    Is a half-caste canvas?
    Explain yuself
    Wha u mean
    When yu say half-caste
    Yu mean when light an shadow
    Mix in de sky
    Is a half-caste weather??
    Well in dat case
    England weather
    Nearly always half-caste
    In fact some o dem cloud
    Half-caste till dem overcast
    So spiteful dem dont want de sun pass
    Ah rass
    Explain yuself
    Wha yu mean
    When yu say half-caste?
    Yu mean tchaikovsky
    Sit down at dah piano
    An mix a black key
    Wid a white key
    Is a half-caste symphony?

    Explain yuself
    Wha yu mean
    Ah listening to yu wid de keen
    Half of mih ear
    Ah looking at u wid de keen
    Half of mih eye
    And when I'm introduced to yu
    I'm sure you'll understand
    Why I offer yu half-a-hand
    An when I sleep at night
    I close half-a-eye
    Consequently when I dream
    I dream half-a-dream
    An when moon begin to glow
    I half-caste human being
    Cast half-a-shadow
    But yu come back tomorrow
    Wid de whole of yu eye
    An de whole of yu ear
    And de whole of yu mind

    An I will tell yu
    De other half
    Of my story
     

    I quote

    This John Agard poem criticises the use of the term “half-caste”, a popular British slur against mixed-race individuals.

    The poem demonstrates Agard’s subtle cleverness. He assumes naivety and mock-stupidity, asks the listener to ‘explain’ what he means when he uses the insulting term ‘half-caste’. He then applies the idea of incompleteness, implied by the term, to the world around us. So, the insult is converted to a joke when Agard says, for example, ‘…mix a black key/Wid a white key/Is a half-caste symphony?’.

    The overriding tone of this poem is humorous, the most effective way, as Agard is no doubt aware, to achieve understanding. There are, however, mocking, sarcastic undertones. The poem works best when spoken aloud in performance.
     

    , @Anon
    What is bad about road not taken?
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  68. I always found “White Man’s Burden” to be darkly sarcastic – you’ll improve the savage and he’ll hate you for it. How apropos.

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  69. “The Man Who Would Be King” provided the 69-year-old John Huston, who more or less invented film noir in his early 30s”

    Hold it hold it. Invented the film noir? Seriously? How about Raoul Walsh’s High Sierra (also in 1941). Huston had more duds than greats in his career.

    “and perhaps Hollywood’s single most memorable personality, with the story that kicked off his impressive comeback in old age.”

    The film was so-so, not a great one by any stretch, especially when one thinks of the great films of the same era. Huston also had plenty of duds during his old age as well: Annie; that film about satanism/witchcraft; film he did on soccer with Stallone and Pele or something. In other words, once Huston stopped making films with Bogart his career seemed to take a turn for mostly the worst.

    “He’s not much as a director unless he has Bogie to help him out”–John Wayne, he worked with Huston on the real bad stinker “The Barbarian and the Geisha”

    Also, Hollywood was and is filled with tons of memorable personalities just as great as if not surpassing Houston: DeMille; John Ford; Hitchcock; Raoul Walsh; Orson Welles (who definitely was a greater filmmaker than Huston).

    I wonder how many Millennials can name numerous John Huston films today? (excluding of course any film school students) But that does tend to happen when one’s films mostly fail at the box office over a decades span of time.

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    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    Film noir really started in the late 1940s with those beautiful, shadowy black and white films depicting soldiers fresh from the killing fields of Europe and the Pacific islands getting into stateside trouble with get-rich-quick schemes and shady dames.

    Houston's The Maltese Falcon (1941), while a great crime film, is not typically noir. The film's greatness lies in its ability to be engaging despite the fact that it is really a collection of scenes with guys sitting around in rooms talking. Chalk it up to the script, acting talent involved, and Houston's finesse with the camera.

    Houston went on to make The Kremlin Letter (1970), an under-appreciated espionage thriller.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Yojimbo, Hmmm, "Maltese Falcon" and "Treasure of the Sierra Madres" are both great films, but are you saying they are only good because of Bogart?
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  70. Thea says:

    If reads a bit like modern self-help psychology. It isn’t Kipling’s best. But it doesn’t matter because Shakespeare would get the same treatment by SJWs.

    A lot of the students are descended from people like Kipling. I don’t think the Caribbean imports are nearly as twisted up over this as the local white liberal students.

    Why maya Angelou and not some poet from India? Wouldn’t that speak to the demographics better?

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  71. OT (sort of): Trevor Noah of the Daily Show gets in a tiff with the French ambassador for noticing that the “French” team is mostly Africans.

    I don’t watch the Daily Show, but I’m pretty certain that Noah is a DB. However, in this case, he’s simply pointing that race matters, that you never lose your ancestry. Noah was proud of the black guys who won the World Cup because he’s part black. The French ambassador argued that once you become a French citizen, you are French. He’s wrong.

    What a stupid, stupid world we live in.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/trevor-noah-fires-back-at-french-ambassador-who-criticized-world-cup-joke/ar-AAAhmEu?ocid=spartandhp

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Noah is trying to eviscerate or appropriate French identity for Africans, while retaining a racial identity for Africans.

    It is conquest (or attempted conquest) at the level of groups, but also effectively at the level of territory.
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  72. @PiltdownMan
    Those student leaders don't know much, but they know the necessary minimum about Rudyard Kipling. He was a bad, bad, white man, who said bad words like "white man's burden", "Gunga Din" and "Mandalay."

    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    An excerpt


    There has been more than one reason, as I have said, for the waning of Kipling's popularity...there are...causes more insidious and more potent. He stands, not only politically for the highest type of Toryism,—at least, one fancies he does,—but for a lot of other outdated things: pious attachment to the soil; romantic love, enduring, clean outside and in; the beauty of childhood and the bitterer beauty of parenthood; patriotism unshrinking; and unashamed; loathing of the mob and the mob's madness and meanness; the continuity of the English political tradition, from Magna Charta down; religious toleration; scrupulous perception of differences between race and race, type and type; the White Man's Burden. And I doubt if, even now, he is an ardent believer in Woman Suffrage.

    Almost any one of these attitudes would have been enough to damn him with the British democracy. ... One even realizes—though this time with amusement—why he is persona non grata to 'the brittle intellectuals that crack beneath the strain.' The intellectuals say that he is good at times for children, and often for the vulgar, and take their refuge in not taking him seriously.
     

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/01/the-remarkable-rightness-of-rudyard-kipling/306597/

    Yeah, what’s not to like?

    1919′s “outdated things” reads like a list of new natioanlism’s greatest hits.

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  73. syonredux says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.

    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.

    I think that this is Kipling’s best anti-SJW poem:

    The Gods of the Copybook Headings

    AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
    I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
    Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

    We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
    That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
    But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
    So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

    We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

    With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
    They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
    They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
    So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

    When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”

    On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
    (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
    Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”

    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”

    Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
    And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
    That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Who are the Gods of the Copybook headings?
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  74. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    Kipling was a wonderful and complex writer (and a magnificent writer of short stories) but “If” is a pretty awful cringe-inducing poem.

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    • Replies: @Rob McX
    I have to agree about "If" - not that the sentiments are unworthy or anything, but it looks more like prose to me.
    , @Lowe
    Yes, I would have a lot more respect for the students who painted over it, if their justification were that it is a bad poem. Of course then they would have overwritten it with another of his poems.
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  75. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    Kipling was more of a popular writer who wrote a lot of doggerel, rather than one of the great literary figures. Although being popular doesn’t necessarily preclude one from being great. Dickens and Trollope wrote for popular audiences.

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  76. Kipling’s “If” expresses a kind of Confucianism–mastery of the world begins with mastery of the self. It is written implicitly from the perspective of someone inside describing how to get there. It’s interesting that the students replaced it with a poem that is written implicitly from the perspective of someone outside who refuses criticism (and, consequently, advice). One by someone from a people at the apex of civilization and one by someone from a people who have never created a civilization.

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  77. syonredux says:

    Like I’ve said before, many people today feel oppressed by the greatness of past humans, especially if those humans didn’t happen to be their ancestors.

    Pope foresaw the current hour:

    In vain, in vain—the all-composing hour
    Resistless falls; the Muse obeys the power.
    She comes! she comes! the sable throne behold
    Of Night primeval, and of Chaos old! 630
    Before her Fancy’s gilded clouds decay,
    And all its varying rainbows die away.
    Wit shoots in vain its momentary fires,
    The meteor drops, and in a flash expires.
    As one by one, at dread Medea’s strain, 635
    The sick’ning stars fade off th’ ethereal plain;
    As Argus’ eyes, by Hermes’ wand opprest,
    Closed one by one to everlasting rest;
    Thus at her felt approach, and secret might,
    Art after Art goes out, and all is night. 640
    See skulking Truth to her old cavern fled,
    Mountains of casuistry heap’d o’er her head!
    Philosophy, that lean’d on Heaven before,
    Shrinks to her second cause, and is no more.
    Physic of Metaphysic begs defence, 645
    And Metaphysic calls for aid on Sense!
    See Mystery to Mathematics fly!
    In vain! they gaze, turn giddy, rave, and die.
    Religion, blushing, veils her sacred fires,
    And unawares Morality expires. 650

    Nor public flame, nor private, dares to shine;
    Nor human spark is left, nor glimpse divine!
    Lo! thy dread empire, Chaos! is restor’d;
    Light dies before thy uncreating word:
    Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall; 655
    And universal Darkness buries all.

    Pope, Dunciad

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  78. Anon[123] • Disclaimer says:

    Kellogg’s original was O.K., But I prefer the Dolly Parton cover version.

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  79. syonredux says:
    @Lot
    I had a look at the BBC 100 favorite poems of Britons referenced in the article. I was pleasantly surprised by the near lack of modern and PC dreck, instead lots of Olde England romantic stuff and militarism. Steve's most quoted Ozymandias is no. 30

    Sorry if my dislike for No 1 offends. Road Not Taken might well top an American version of the list and is bad for similar reasons. The best American poem on the British list is Song of Hiawatha.

    Frost’s best work is not his most popular:

    Directive

    Back out of all this now too much for us,
    Back in a time made simple by the loss
    Of detail, burned, dissolved, and broken off
    Like graveyard marble sculpture in the weather,
    There is a house that is no more a house
    Upon a farm that is no more a farm
    And in a town that is no more a town.
    The road there, if you’ll let a guide direct you
    Who only has at heart your getting lost,
    May seem as if it should have been a quarry -
    Great monolithic knees the former town
    Long since gave up pretense of keeping covered.
    And there’s a story in a book about it:
    Besides the wear of iron wagon wheels
    The ledges show lines ruled southeast-northwest,
    The chisel work of an enormous Glacier
    That braced his feet against the Arctic Pole.
    You must not mind a certain coolness from him
    Still said to haunt this side of Panther Mountain.
    Nor need you mind the serial ordeal
    Of being watched from forty cellar holes

    As if by eye pairs out of forty firkins.
    As for the woods’ excitement over you
    That sends light rustle rushes to their leaves,
    Charge that to upstart inexperience.
    Where were they all not twenty years ago?
    They think too much of having shaded out
    A few old pecker-fretted apple trees.
    Make yourself up a cheering song of how
    Someone’s road home from work this once was,
    Who may be just ahead of you on foot
    Or creaking with a buggy load of grain.
    The height of the adventure is the height
    Of country where two village cultures faded
    Into each other. Both of them are lost.
    And if you’re lost enough to find yourself
    By now, pull in your ladder road behind you
    And put a sign up CLOSED to all but me.
    Then make yourself at home. The only field
    Now left’s no bigger than a harness gall.
    First there’s the children’s house of make-believe,
    Some shattered dishes underneath a pine,

    The playthings in the playhouse of the children.
    Weep for what little things could make them glad.
    Then for the house that is no more a house,
    But only a belilaced cellar hole,
    Now slowly closing like a dent in dough.
    This was no playhouse but a house in earnest.
    Your destination and your destiny’s
    A brook that was the water of the house,
    Cold as a spring as yet so near its source,
    Too lofty and original to rage.
    (We know the valley streams that when aroused
    Will leave their tatters hung on barb and thorn.)
    I have kept hidden in the instep arch
    Of an old cedar at the waterside
    A broken drinking goblet like the Grail
    Under a spell so the wrong ones can’t find it,
    So can’t get saved, as Saint Mark says they mustn’t.
    (I stole the goblet from the children’s playhouse.)
    Here are your waters and your watering place.
    Drink and be whole again beyond confusion.

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  80. Rob McX says:
    @Wilkey
    My favorite aspect of Black Panther was that the tribe that decides to support Killmonger against "the good guy" is called "the Border Tribe," which struck me as an explicit effort to bash defenders of borders.

    But most hilarious of all is the line at the end of the movie: "But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers."

    After watching a movie 99.998% is ridiculously impossible we're suddenly supposed to be taking advice on real world matters. I'd like to see if Bob Iger or anyone else involved in the making of Black Panther has barriers in front of their house. It could make a great meme.

    “But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers.”

    After watching a movie 99.998% is ridiculously impossible we’re suddenly supposed to be taking advice on real world matters. I’d like to see if Bob Iger or anyone else involved in the making of Black Panther has barriers in front of their house.

    “Bridges for my country, barriers for my house”. Or “bridges for thee, barriers for me”.

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  81. syonredux says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.

    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.

    Here’s another good one:

    The Stranger

    The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk–
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind.

    The men of my own stock,
    They may do ill or well,
    But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
    They are used to the lies I tell;
    And we do not need interpreters
    When we go to buy or sell.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control–
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    The men of my own stock,
    Bitter bad they may be,
    But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
    And see the things I see;
    And whatever I think of them and their likes
    They think of the likes of me.

    This was my father’s belief
    And this is also mine:
    Let the corn be all one sheaf–
    And the grapes be all one vine,
    Ere our children’s teeth are set on edge
    By bitter bread and wine.

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    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    Darn, you beat me Syon. That's what i get for staying up late.

    Yeah, the white boys should put down their video games for a few minutes, graffiti over the fat-black-lady dreck the ugly girls put up, and put up "The Stranger".

    That would get "get 'em going".
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  82. Hockamaw says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm too untalented, but someone has to write the SJW's version of "If," starting with something like

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    "Where are you from?" and call them racist too;

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    “Where are you from?” and call them racist too;

    Ha! A perfect ballad for our times.

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  83. @hhsiii
    Yeah, I imagine White Man’s Burden bothers them more than If in its own right.

    A persistent fact about the SJW activists is that they seem entirely unfamiliar with what they denounce. Has any one of them actually read Kipling? If so, they would know that the “White Man’s Burden” is [spoiler alert] not a desirable thing. It is kind of an anti-privilege, to use the Current Year terminology. To continue The Current Year-isms, it’s an invisible knapsack, but in a bad way. Indeed, in a certain light, the poem could be a blueprint for the SJW movement:

    Go bind your sons to exile
    To serve your captives’ need;

    To seek another’s profit,
    And work another’s gain.

    Take up the White Man’s burden —
    No tawdry rule of kings,
    But toil of serf and sweeper —
    The tale of common things.
    The ports ye shall not enter,
    The roads ye shall not tread,
    Go make them with your living,
    And mark them with your dead.

    And reap his old reward:

    The hate of those ye guard —

    Take up the White Man’s burden —
    Ye dare not stoop to less —
    Nor call too loud on Freedom
    To cloak your weariness;
    By all ye cry or whisper,
    By all ye leave or do,
    The silent, sullen peoples
    Shall weigh your gods and you.

    Comes now, to search your manhood
    Through all the thankless years
    Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
    The judgment of your peers!

    I mean, Jaysus, can the guy be any more woke?

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    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    The silent, sullen peoples

     


    Shall weigh your gods and you.

     

    I don't give a damn what some non-Christian or non-European wog thinks about anything.

    They should have been kept the hell out of England.

    Kipling the British Empire booster is concerned about the thoughts of some sullen nig, nog or wog?
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    No, they haven't read it, and they haven't taken the trouble to learn anything about the author, who, far from being a jingoistic Colonialist, was at best ambivalent about the Empire, given that he adored India and was miserably abused by caregivers in England. He was also bitterly critical of the way common soldiers were treated and of Victoria's reclusiveness after Albert died. It was her job to bolster morale with public appearances, and one poem pretty much told Her Majesty, "Show yourself, Ma'am."
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  84. syonredux says:

    The 23 year old Kipling knocked on Twain’s door in 1889 in Elmira, NY. They had an enthusiastic 2 hour talk.

    Mark Twain on Kipling:

    The New York Times,
    September 9, 1899
    MARK TWAIN ON RUDYARD KIPLING.
    A letter from Mark Twain addressed to a correspondent in Oklahoma is published in one of the Kansas City papers. It relates to Rudyard Kipling and was called out in an interesting manner. It seems that the students of Stillwater College, in Oklahoma, recently declared that Kipling was entitled to be regarded as the greatest living writer of English. Dr. Henry Walker of Oklahoma City disagreed with this verdict in a letter which he wrote to a paper published in Oklahoma City, and gave that proud eminence to Mark Twain instead. He sent Mr. Clemens a copy of his letter and has received the following reply:

    “Dear Doctor Walker: I thank you ever so much for the impulse which moved you to write the article–and for the article, also, which is mighty good reading. And I am glad you praised Kipling–he deserves it; he deserves all the praise that is lavished upon him, and more. It is marvelous–the work which that boy has done the more you read the ‘Jungle Books’ the more wonderful they grow. But Kipling himself does not appreciate them as he ought; he read ‘Tom Sawyer’ a couple of times when he was coming up out of his illness and said he would rather be author of that book than any that has been published during its lifetime. Now, I could have chosen better, I should have chosen ‘Jungle Books.’ But I prize his compliment just the same, of course. I thank you gain and heartily. I haven’t the language to say it strongly enough.”

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Kipling on meeting Mark Twain:

    You are a contemptible lot, over yonder. Some of you are Commissioners, and some Lieutenant-Governors, and some have the V. C., and a few are privileged to walk about the Mall arm in arm with the Viceroy; but I have seen Mark Twain this golden morning, have shaken his hand, and smoked a cigar—no, two cigars—with him, and talked with him for more than two hours! Understand clearly that I do not despise you; indeed, I don’t. I am only very sorry for you, from the Viceroy downward.
     
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/21/mark-twain-centennial-rud_n_545016.html
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  85. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Kipling’s poem got quoted a lot than Angelou’s during this summer’s Wimbledon and World Cup. E.g.,

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  86. @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    Outsong In The Jungle is my favorite:

    BALOO

    FOR the sake of him who showed
    One wise Frog the Jungle-Road,
    Keep the Law the Man-Pack make
    For thy blind old Baloo’s sake!
    Clean or tainted, hot or stale,
    Hold it as it were the Trail,
    Through the day and through the night,
    Questing neither left nor right.
    For the sake of him who loves
    Thee beyond all else that moves,
    When thy Pack would make thee pain,
    Say: ” Tabaqui sings again.”
    When thy Pack would work thee ill,
    Say: “Shere Khan is yet to kill.”
    When the knife is drawn to slay,
    Keep the Law and go thy way.
    (Root and honey, palm and spathe,
    Guard a cub from harm and scathe!)
    Wood and Water, Wind and Tree,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!

    KAA

    [MORE]
    [MORE]

    Anger is the egg of Fear–
    Only lidless eyes see clear.
    Cobra-poison none may leech–
    Even so with Cobra-speech.
    Open talk shall call to thee
    Strength, whose mate is Courtesy.
    Send no lunge beyond thy length.
    Lend no rotten bough thy strength.
    Gauge thy gape with buck or goat,
    Lest thine eye should choke thy throat.
    After gorging, wouldst thou sleep ?
    Look thy den be hid and deep,
    Lest a wrong, by thee forgot,
    Draw thy killer to the spot.
    East and West and North and South,
    Wash thy hide and close thy mouth.
    (Pit and rift and blue pool-brim,
    Middle-Jungle follow him!)
    Wood and Water, Wind and Tree,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!

    BAGHEERA

    In the cage my life began;
    Well I know the worth of Man.
    By the Broken Lock that freed–
    Man-cub, ware the Man-cub’s breed!
    Scenting-dew or starlight pale,
    Choose no tangled tree-cat trail.
    Pack or council, hunt or den,
    Cry no truce with Jackal-Men.
    Feed them silence when they say:
    “Come with us an easy way.”
    Feed them silence when they seek
    Help of thine to hurt the weak.
    Make no bandar’s boast of skill;
    Hold thy peace above the kill.
    Let nor call nor song nor sign
    Turn thee from thy hunting-line.
    (Morning mist or twilight clear,
    Serve him, Wardens of the Deer!)
    Wood and Water, Wind and Tree,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!

    THE THREE

    On the trail that thou must tread
    To the threshold of our dread,
    Where the Flower blossoms red;
    Through the nights when thou shalt lie
    Prisoned from our Mother-sky,
    Hearing us, thy loves, go by;
    In the dawns when thou. shalt wake
    To the toil thou canst not break,
    Heartsick for the Jungle’s sake;
    Wood and Water, Wind air Tree,
    Wisdom, Strength, and Courtesy,
    Jungle-Favour go with thee!
    _________________________________

    I like middlebrow. Shakespeare was probably middlebrow. Or maybe Shakespeare was highbrow in a society that knew the importance of transmitting highbrow culture to middlebrow people.

    Kipling is a great example of the elite preaching what they practice. Do we have anybody anywhere who comes even close to Kipling’s stature?

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  87. OFF TOPIC

    Was all this anti-Christian crap about the US Air Force in the Jewish media just a con job to put Jew officers in charge of the Air Force? I remember many articles in the media about the Christian officers in the Air Force and now I see a Jew named David Goldfein is top dog of the US Air Force.

    I remember articles with that ugly modern Air Force building in Colorado or some damn place out West and it was always about the Christians praying or this or that. So what? This is a European Christian nation, and if you don’t like it, get the hell out. If you want, we can deport you to Uganda.

    It turns out some Jew named Schwartz was top dog at the US Air Force from 2008 to 2012.

    Why was there all this anti-Christian crap in the media about the US Air Force when two Jews were running the frigging joint? The media is the enemy of the American people.

    Hyman Rickover is the only Jew that ever mattered for the US military. President Trump has to make
    sure that the Jew-controlled Neo-Conservative faction of the GOP is removed from power. No more war on behalf of Israel in the Middle East or West Asia.

    The US military is designed to waste and misdirect the martial energy of the European Christian ancestral core of the United States. Young European Christian American soldiers are serving the GOVERNMENT of the United States, they are not serving the COUNTRY that is the United States.

    The US military is designed to project the ideology of mass immigration, multiculturalism, financialization and globalization.

    The US military is NOT designed to defend and protect the United States of America.

    There is a difference between the government and the country. There is a difference between the US government and the US nation.

    The US military does not protect and defend the United States of America.

    US Air Force Chief of Staff David Goldfein:

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  88. @Percy Gryce
    They're not changing our culture. They're trying to erase it--literally.

    And who’s letting them get away with this? Why the English cucks!!! The Great Shuttening of the West continues and all we hear are crickets from the cucks.

    Harry married the negress Cheddar Woman. Some black woman was named the winner of Ms. Universe Great Britian contest. We will have to shut down everything in the West. It will be interesting to see what will be resurrected.

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    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    Harry married the negress Cheddar Woman. Some black woman was named the winner of Ms. Universe Great Britian contest. We will have to shut down everything in the West. It will be interesting to see what will be resurrected.

     

    Electronics is the thing that controls what must be shut down in the West. The electronic propaganda and the electronic banking system.

    The Bank of England and the BBC and all that stuff is what the ruling class in England uses to retain power.
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  89. syonredux says:
    @syonredux

    The 23 year old Kipling knocked on Twain's door in 1889 in Elmira, NY. They had an enthusiastic 2 hour talk.
     
    https://twitter.com/Steve_Sailer/status/1019889278824767489


    Mark Twain on Kipling:

    The New York Times,
    September 9, 1899
    MARK TWAIN ON RUDYARD KIPLING.
    A letter from Mark Twain addressed to a correspondent in Oklahoma is published in one of the Kansas City papers. It relates to Rudyard Kipling and was called out in an interesting manner. It seems that the students of Stillwater College, in Oklahoma, recently declared that Kipling was entitled to be regarded as the greatest living writer of English. Dr. Henry Walker of Oklahoma City disagreed with this verdict in a letter which he wrote to a paper published in Oklahoma City, and gave that proud eminence to Mark Twain instead. He sent Mr. Clemens a copy of his letter and has received the following reply:
     

    "Dear Doctor Walker: I thank you ever so much for the impulse which moved you to write the article--and for the article, also, which is mighty good reading. And I am glad you praised Kipling--he deserves it; he deserves all the praise that is lavished upon him, and more. It is marvelous--the work which that boy has done the more you read the 'Jungle Books' the more wonderful they grow. But Kipling himself does not appreciate them as he ought; he read 'Tom Sawyer' a couple of times when he was coming up out of his illness and said he would rather be author of that book than any that has been published during its lifetime. Now, I could have chosen better, I should have chosen 'Jungle Books.' But I prize his compliment just the same, of course. I thank you gain and heartily. I haven't the language to say it strongly enough."
     

    Kipling on meeting Mark Twain:

    You are a contemptible lot, over yonder. Some of you are Commissioners, and some Lieutenant-Governors, and some have the V. C., and a few are privileged to walk about the Mall arm in arm with the Viceroy; but I have seen Mark Twain this golden morning, have shaken his hand, and smoked a cigar—no, two cigars—with him, and talked with him for more than two hours! Understand clearly that I do not despise you; indeed, I don’t. I am only very sorry for you, from the Viceroy downward.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/21/mark-twain-centennial-rud_n_545016.html

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Henry James on Kipling:

    "Kipling strikes me as personally the most complete man of genius that I have ever known"
     
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  90. @Almost Missouri
    A persistent fact about the SJW activists is that they seem entirely unfamiliar with what they denounce. Has any one of them actually read Kipling? If so, they would know that the "White Man's Burden" is [spoiler alert] not a desirable thing. It is kind of an anti-privilege, to use the Current Year terminology. To continue The Current Year-isms, it's an invisible knapsack, but in a bad way. Indeed, in a certain light, the poem could be a blueprint for the SJW movement:

    Go bind your sons to exile
    To serve your captives' need;
    ...
    To seek another's profit,
    And work another's gain.
    ...
    Take up the White Man's burden —
    No tawdry rule of kings,
    But toil of serf and sweeper —
    The tale of common things.
    The ports ye shall not enter,
    The roads ye shall not tread,
    Go make them with your living,
    And mark them with your dead.
    ...
    And reap his old reward:
    ...
    The hate of those ye guard —
    ...
    Take up the White Man's burden —
    Ye dare not stoop to less —
    Nor call too loud on Freedom
    To cloak your weariness;
    By all ye cry or whisper,
    By all ye leave or do,
    The silent, sullen peoples
    Shall weigh your gods and you.
    ...
    Comes now, to search your manhood
    Through all the thankless years
    Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
    The judgment of your peers!
     
    I mean, Jaysus, can the guy be any more woke?

    The silent, sullen peoples

    Shall weigh your gods and you.

    I don’t give a damn what some non-Christian or non-European wog thinks about anything.

    They should have been kept the hell out of England.

    Kipling the British Empire booster is concerned about the thoughts of some sullen nig, nog or wog?

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    I think the "peers" are meant to be fellow Anglos, and "your gods and you" are the British imperial project.

    But yes, it is paradoxical how the Anglo imperial project of the 19th century imperceptibly shaded into the SJW imperial project of the 21st century.
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  91. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm too untalented, but someone has to write the SJW's version of "If," starting with something like

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    "Where are you from?" and call them racist too;

    “If” by Obama the Orator:

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    placeboing was beyond brilliant. seems to have more or less dried up, though. too bad.
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  92. @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    That’s a great poem. Much better than “If”.

    The first line obviously references the second poem of Horace’s Odes, book III, and the subject of that poem is the proper education of a young man, which Kipling herein expands on vis-a-vis modern education and imperialism. Genius, as Steve says.

    “To suffer hardness with good cheer,
    In sternest school of warfare bred,
    Our youth should learn;”

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  93. Someone should teach these kids this one:
    It was not part of their blood,
    It came to them very late,
    With long arrears to make good,
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    They were not easily moved,
    They were icy — willing to wait
    Till every count should be proved,
    Ere the Saxon began to hate.

    Their voices were even and low.
    Their eyes were level and straight.
    There was neither sign nor show
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not preached to the crowd.
    It was not taught by the state.
    No man spoke it aloud
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not suddently bred.
    It will not swiftly abate.
    Through the chilled years ahead,
    When Time shall count from the date
    That the Saxon began to hate.

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  94. Ganderson says:
    @Lot
    I had a look at the BBC 100 favorite poems of Britons referenced in the article. I was pleasantly surprised by the near lack of modern and PC dreck, instead lots of Olde England romantic stuff and militarism. Steve's most quoted Ozymandias is no. 30

    Sorry if my dislike for No 1 offends. Road Not Taken might well top an American version of the list and is bad for similar reasons. The best American poem on the British list is Song of Hiawatha.

    “Ozymandias, King of Ants”

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  95. @syonredux

    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.
     
    Here's another good one:

    The Stranger

    The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk--
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind.

    The men of my own stock,
    They may do ill or well,
    But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
    They are used to the lies I tell;
    And we do not need interpreters
    When we go to buy or sell.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control--
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.


    The men of my own stock,
    Bitter bad they may be,
    But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
    And see the things I see;
    And whatever I think of them and their likes
    They think of the likes of me.

    This was my father's belief
    And this is also mine:
    Let the corn be all one sheaf--
    And the grapes be all one vine,
    Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
    By bitter bread and wine.

    Darn, you beat me Syon. That’s what i get for staying up late.

    Yeah, the white boys should put down their video games for a few minutes, graffiti over the fat-black-lady dreck the ugly girls put up, and put up “The Stranger”.

    That would get “get ‘em going”.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Yeah, the white boys should put down their video games for a few minutes, graffiti over the fat-black-lady dreck the ugly girls put up, and put up “The Stranger”.

     

    Or this Fred Fisher classic:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neEnhgBDVlM
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  96. Anon[328] • Disclaimer says:

    Soccer-punched.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    Anon(328) wrote:
    "Woman punched in the face, boyfriend viciously beaten by group of Algerian men on night of World Cup win.

    Their crime?

    They said “Vive la France!”

    The wonders of multi-culturalism never cease."


    I propose the following:

    The [French] politicians are writing checks that their electorate can't cash.
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  97. Anon[328] • Disclaimer says:

    If these people are anti-imperialist, why are they globalist that calls for demographic imperialism and cultural hegemony of Pop all over the world?

    And PC is ideological imperialism that tells all the world to worship homo.

    Also, ‘inclusion’ means whites must include non-whites who want to get away from their own kind.
    I guess anti-whiteness is therapeutic in masking the embarrassing fact that non-whites prefer whiteness over their own kind. They do everything to flee from their own kind and live with/under whites, but to hide their dog-like behavior, they do the PC howl like they’re proud wolves.

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  98. vinteuil says:
    @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow.

    Well, it’s certainly every pseud’s idea of “hokey & middlebrow.”

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  99. @attilathehen
    And who's letting them get away with this? Why the English cucks!!! The Great Shuttening of the West continues and all we hear are crickets from the cucks.

    Harry married the negress Cheddar Woman. Some black woman was named the winner of Ms. Universe Great Britian contest. We will have to shut down everything in the West. It will be interesting to see what will be resurrected.

    Harry married the negress Cheddar Woman. Some black woman was named the winner of Ms. Universe Great Britian contest. We will have to shut down everything in the West. It will be interesting to see what will be resurrected.

    Electronics is the thing that controls what must be shut down in the West. The electronic propaganda and the electronic banking system.

    The Bank of England and the BBC and all that stuff is what the ruling class in England uses to retain power.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    You are insane. We are communicating via electronics on the Internet.

    As to banking, I used to work in banks and electronic banking is great as long as you have standards. Banks will lend to anyone because they know they can get governments to cover their losses.

    The white Brits needs a white Brit party to start making changes. They are super cucked.
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  100. vinteuil says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican
    “If” by Obama the Orator:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poz6W0znOfk

    placeboing was beyond brilliant. seems to have more or less dried up, though. too bad.

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    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    The 2016 election and aftermath was a special time. So much great material.
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  101. Rob McX says:
    @dfordoom

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.
     
    Kipling was a wonderful and complex writer (and a magnificent writer of short stories) but "If" is a pretty awful cringe-inducing poem.

    I have to agree about “If” – not that the sentiments are unworthy or anything, but it looks more like prose to me.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    It's not prose, it just doesn't come up to the heights of his better work. Any regular poet would be very proud to have penned such a piece. Like Excelsior, it's good schoolboy reading, to be affectionately remembered afterwards, which Kipling intended (hence the poem is addressed to a boy who wants to be a man).
    , @dfordoom

    I have to agree about “If” – not that the sentiments are unworthy or anything, but it looks more like prose to me.
     
    I think you could say that of most of Kipling's verse. It's often amusing and witty, often clever and even wise, but it's not exactly poetry as such. And "If" is a poor example.

    On the other hand in the prose arena Kipling had some actual masterpieces to his credit. I think it's reasonable to describe both Kim and The Man Who Would Be King as masterpieces. Quite a few of the short stories are excellent.

    Kipling's contribution to science fiction is often overlooked. WITH THE NIGHT MAIL and AS EASY AS ABC are intriguing and important sci-fi short stories.

    He was a great writer. He just wasn't a great poet. His verse can be great fun but it isn't great poetry.
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  102. vinteuil says:

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    • Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    Why does Sir Michael Caine, a trained actor, misread the script?

    Kipling wrote, "don't look too good, nor talk too wise";
    Caine says, "don't look too good, nor look too wise".

    Kipling wrote, "fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run";
    Caine recalibrates this minute to, unaccountably, "forty seconds".

    And this recitation is not from memory; he is reading the poem from a book.
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  103. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob McX
    I have to agree about "If" - not that the sentiments are unworthy or anything, but it looks more like prose to me.

    It’s not prose, it just doesn’t come up to the heights of his better work. Any regular poet would be very proud to have penned such a piece. Like Excelsior, it’s good schoolboy reading, to be affectionately remembered afterwards, which Kipling intended (hence the poem is addressed to a boy who wants to be a man).

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  104. syonredux says:
    @syonredux
    Kipling on meeting Mark Twain:

    You are a contemptible lot, over yonder. Some of you are Commissioners, and some Lieutenant-Governors, and some have the V. C., and a few are privileged to walk about the Mall arm in arm with the Viceroy; but I have seen Mark Twain this golden morning, have shaken his hand, and smoked a cigar—no, two cigars—with him, and talked with him for more than two hours! Understand clearly that I do not despise you; indeed, I don’t. I am only very sorry for you, from the Viceroy downward.
     
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/21/mark-twain-centennial-rud_n_545016.html

    Henry James on Kipling:

    “Kipling strikes me as personally the most complete man of genius that I have ever known”

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  105. Lowe says:
    @Cagey Beast
    OT:
    Now that White people are starting to see themselves as an ethnic group, it's time to cool it with the identity politics, folks. No, we're just getting started.

    Obama Rebukes Identity Politics


    “You can’t do this if you just out of hand disregard what your opponent has to say from the start,” he continued. “And you can’t do it if you insist that those who aren’t like you because they are white or they are male, somehow there is no way they can understand what I’m feeling, that somehow they lack standing to speak on certain matters.”
     
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/barack-obama-rebukes-identity-politics/

    The danger of being a very successful person is being surrounded by sycophants, who won’t tell you you’re steering the ship into an iceberg until it is too late.

    Are his remarks now too little, too late, to stave off disaster for the Democratic party? He had so much to do with setting their disastrous course.

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    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    It's remarkable how quickly everyone near power seemed to forget that running Obama as "leader of the free world" was a desperate, faith-based move by the Establishment. Obama was rushed into the presidential politics with the paint still wet on him. The Mocha Messiah was sent to soothe and reassure the European provinces of American empire even before he was in office. Silly Norwegian cat ladies threw a Nobel peace prize at him just for being more like Sidney Poitier than Bush Jr. And Bush Jr was himself an untested candidate people had hoped would be less interventionist than his predecessor.

    I guess my point is that the current mess has been a long time coming.
    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    Obama was just a callow fool. The projection onto him of characteristics that were definitively not there just played into his solipsistic narcissism. Unreflective until smacked in the face by the two by four of reality, and even then he only dimly glimpses what damage he in actuality has done after having been placed in a position to instead do some real good.

    Of course, he was always and only along for the ride on the gravy train, so what the hell am I thinking by entertaining the notion that there was ever anything positive to this empty suit.
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  106. @anon
    a

    a

    A+.

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  107. @charles w abbott
    Orwell's essay on Kipling is worth reading. It appears in many of the compact Orwell anthologies, but is assigned to students less frequently than (say) "politics of the English language" or "Shooting an elephant."

    Orwell thought Kipling's line "Making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep" was a keeper--both the line and the underlying issue referred to.

    It seems to me that Kipling is a bit like Twain in the sense that the determined reader, especially a hurried and superficial reader with an ax to grind, will find many opportunities to take offense and become indignant.

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  108. Lowe says:

    You think a university president would expel students for painting over a wall in the student union? Maybe if they painted a swastika on it. Otherwise, no, that will never happen.

    By the way, it is not possible to make university credits not transferrable. It is entirely the choice of another school whether some credits transfer, so outside the control of the original school. They could refuse to give a transcript, but this probably would not work, particularly in the contentious situation you describe.

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    • Replies: @Lowe
    Comment was directed at Anon[324].
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  109. @AnotherDad
    Darn, you beat me Syon. That's what i get for staying up late.

    Yeah, the white boys should put down their video games for a few minutes, graffiti over the fat-black-lady dreck the ugly girls put up, and put up "The Stranger".

    That would get "get 'em going".

    Yeah, the white boys should put down their video games for a few minutes, graffiti over the fat-black-lady dreck the ugly girls put up, and put up “The Stranger”.

    Or this Fred Fisher classic:

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  110. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Seriously, these things start looking like youth activity during early days of Cultural Revolution. So much for West winning the Cold War.

    Angelou's "poem" is not even a poetry. No defined rhythmic structure and barely any rhyming.

    What is it in English language that makes authors break rhyming so frequently? Surely Kipling realized that "virtue" does not rhyme with "you". There are numerous examples of this even in Shakespeare.

    “Virtue” does, however, rhyme perfectly well with “hurt you”.

    Eye rime is a completely different issue and its use is subject to any number of considerations. But it’s certainly true that English is much less of a naturally rhyming language than, say, Spanish or Italian. On the other hand our rhythmic effects are quite impossible in, say, French, which is mostly devoid of stress accents. Our poetic tradition (end-rhymed with accentual-syllabic metre) derives from medieval Latin verse, which displaced the native alliterative and accentual forms common to Anglo-Saxon England. At least we don’t have a quantitative system which would make no sense at all in English; it barely even makes sense in Latin.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Anon, Tiger. Tiger burning bright. In the forest of the night. What immortal hand or eye, could frame your fearful symmetry. This is the only example of Eye-rhyme I can remember.
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  111. Lowe says:
    @dfordoom

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.
     
    Kipling was a wonderful and complex writer (and a magnificent writer of short stories) but "If" is a pretty awful cringe-inducing poem.

    Yes, I would have a lot more respect for the students who painted over it, if their justification were that it is a bad poem. Of course then they would have overwritten it with another of his poems.

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  112. @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    What’s wrong with middlebrow?

    The truth is most of the “truths” people can and need to learn aren’t exactly rocket science, they really are “middlebrow”.

    Off the top of my head:
    – treat other people like you want to be treated
    – you are responsible for yourself–got a problem? look in the mirror
    – clean up after yourself
    – try hard
    – build your brain, read, study, learn, educate yourself–keep learning all the time
    – listen–you don’t know it all
    – not everyone is like you, not everyone agrees with you, and sometimes they are right
    – learn from your mistakes; even better other people’s mistakes
    – be a good neighbor, but …
    – don’t be a doormat
    – stand up for yourself, but …
    – learn to keep your mouth shut when appropriate
    – choose your battles
    – be productive, do useful work, create, build
    – try it yourself … but ask for help if you really can’t figure it out
    – finish
    – be true to your commitments
    – work hard, but …
    – life isn’t just work–leave time for recreation, hobbies, friends and most of all family
    – have fun, but …
    – real happiness is not the same as pleasure
    – drink … in moderation
    – eat … in moderation
    – exercise
    – real happiness–for most–will come from building a family
    – people are different
    – most people aren’t like you, don’t think like you
    – you can’t solve other people’s problems, fix other people’s lives
    – if you are “saving the world” … you are making it worse
    – “saving the world” won’t make you happy
    – to really “save the world”, be productive, take care of your family, neighborhood and nation
    – stay out of other peoples’ business
    – keep foreigners from invading and settling your nation**

    … and yet many people just won’t “get” this middlebrow wisdom.

    (**Yes Lot, i’m looking at you here.)

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    • Agree: kaganovitch
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Follow the Teen Commandments!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZk2Jo43BDI
    , @dfordoom

    What’s wrong with middlebrow?
     
    There's nothing wrong with middlebrow. Kipling at his best is still middlebrow, but very very high grade middlebrow. He's one of the few worthy winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature.

    The problem with "If" is not that it's middlebrow. The problem is that it's a bad poem by a very good writer.
    , @vinteuil
    What’s wrong with middlebrow?

    Good question. To which the answer is: nothing.

    Middlebrow: Vermeer. Highbrow: Basquiat.

    Middlebrow: 1 Henry IV. Highbrow: Angels in America.

    Middlebrow: Vaughan Williams' *Pastoral Symphony* . Highbrow: Berio's *Sinfonia*.

    ...and so on and so forth.

    So, at least, my highbrow acquaintances inform me.
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  113. Pat Boyle says:

    Steve is probably right about John Huston inventing film noir. To gain an insight watch the Huston-Bogart version of ‘The Maltese Falcon’. Then watch the decade earlier version with Riccardo Cortez as Sam Spade.

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    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Steve is probably right about John Huston inventing film noir. To gain an insight watch the Huston-Bogart version of ‘The Maltese Falcon’.
     
    The Maltese Falcon is a very great movie. But to a purist it's not film noir. Which doesn't matter. In 1941 no-one knew film noir existed. Huston just made a crime movie which turned out to be a great movie.

    I'd rate The Man Who Would Be King as Huston's other great movie. Aside from that he made some interesting failures.
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  114. John Houston’s The Man Who Would Be King (1975), with its pairing of Sean Connery and Michael Caine, is magnificent. I’ve watched it several times.

    Not so magnificent: “… god knows black and brown voices have been written out of history enough …”

    The above statement would be true had it been uttered thirty years ago. Now we are drowning in a cesspit of brown and particularly black cultural products.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    Dude, thirty years ago was 1988. The emphasis on "black and brown voices" far beyond their merits was already in full swing.
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  115. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Father O'Hara
    If they wanted a POC poem,why did pick such a stupid one? There is lots of good poetry by non-whites. If these young uns are supposed to be educated and woke,they must have a wide variety of POC lit at hand.
    Are they trolling the academy a bit? Are they dumb?
    I used to read a few blacks like the Harlem poet Countee Cullen. He was legitimately good.

    I'm sure his stuff beats "oil wells pumping in my living room." (Which seems to have a vague and disgusting sexual tone. Is it me?)

    Because they don’t want smart POCs. They failed to read correctly the message of “The White Man’s Burden” (probably because they only read the title and not the poem) and they want to excoriate other whites for their oppression and evil*. POCs (who in all honesty probably like Kipling) are actually merely incidental to the campaign against the evil white people.

    *Since the poem was written about the time of the American annexation of the Philippines one common interpretation is that Kipling is telling the US: “Okay, you’ve had your fun criticizing how everybody else is treating their imperial subjects– now you try it for a change”.

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  116. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:

    O/T

    https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/SoCal-Car-Wash-Owner-Settles-Wages-Lawsuit-for-42M-488634521.html

    The owner of a dozen Southern California car washes will pay $4.2 million to settle a federal lawsuit claiming that he cheated hundreds of employees out of wages.

    The U.S. Department of Labor announced Wednesday that about 800 workers will receive back pay under a consent agreement reached with Vahid Delrahim. The agreement was filed in Los Angeles federal court.

    The wonderful benefits of mass immigration!

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  117. Giuseppe says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm too untalented, but someone has to write the SJW's version of "If," starting with something like

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    "Where are you from?" and call them racist too;

    An SJW’s If should end something like this…

    If you can grill a cis white male nitwit
    With sixty seconds worth of lashing tongue
    Yours is the dearth of every noble sentiment
    And what’s more, you’ll be a ma’am, my son.

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  118. Anonymous[107] • Disclaimer says:
    @charles w abbott
    Orwell's essay on Kipling is worth reading. It appears in many of the compact Orwell anthologies, but is assigned to students less frequently than (say) "politics of the English language" or "Shooting an elephant."

    Orwell thought Kipling's line "Making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep" was a keeper--both the line and the underlying issue referred to.

    It seems to me that Kipling is a bit like Twain in the sense that the determined reader, especially a hurried and superficial reader with an ax to grind, will find many opportunities to take offense and become indignant.

    But Orwell didn’t really seem to think much of Kipling, calling him a good “B” writer who had a knack for turning a phrase.
    Orwell’s 1942 essay on Kipling was in response to Edmund Wilson’s musings on Kipling in the Atlantic the year before, a two-part essay collected in The Wound and the Bow under the title The Kipling that Nobody Read, and very well worth reading.
    I came to Kipling with the assumption that he was a second-rate limey blowhard of a well-known type that is even represented among commenters here on iSteve.
    But he was not. He certainly was not.
    My favorite of his novels, The Light That Failed, still sticks with me, its imagery vivid and unfaded, its worldview incorporated into mine in a way that that of few novels ever have been.
    Anyone who has not read Kipling should read him. You’ll find something important to you.

    W

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  119. @Tiny Duck
    Kipling was an imperialist racist pantload

    His work should be spit on for the odious trite bilge it is

    There is more to literature than dead white males

    You would do well to read it

    Tiny, if only you had a son who was moved aside on an escalator by a white woman then you could write at the level of Ta Nehisi Coates. “Odious trite bilge” indeed.

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    • Replies: @tyrone
    Oh no ,tiny would have a theyby, never a son!
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  120. sfoil says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    Seriously, these things start looking like youth activity during early days of Cultural Revolution. So much for West winning the Cold War.

    Angelou's "poem" is not even a poetry. No defined rhythmic structure and barely any rhyming.

    What is it in English language that makes authors break rhyming so frequently? Surely Kipling realized that "virtue" does not rhyme with "you". There are numerous examples of this even in Shakespeare.

    Milton didn’t rhyme Paradise Lost, even including a prefatory “defense” for doing so. Of course Shakespeare used blank verse in his plays as well. Much later, the Modernists knew what they were doing. The problem isn’t good poets altering or abandoning classical forms, but lessers aping them.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    sfoil, Detention at my Catholic boys HS consisted of squatting like a baseball catcher while memorizing a page of "Paradise Lost.' No one ever succeeded in early release by being able to quote the required passages. One hour plus extra time for goofing a round or farting. Fifty year reunion was a gathering of old men with gimpy knees.
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  121. Tex says:
    @Father O'Hara
    This is just the kind of stuff they're talking about!

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone's radar,or has he already been "un personned?"

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone’s radar,or has he already been “un personned?”

    London seems to fly beneath the radar, but you think he’d make a perfect target, racially conscious, devoted to masculinity, and popular with traditional readers. The funny part is, he was hugely popular in the Soviet Union, thanks in part to London’s avowed socialist politics. Lenin was a fan, albeit with reservations. I was just reading about kids enjoying Jack London books in Stalingrad in the days before the Wehrmacht hit the city.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    In her book Memories of Lenin, the revolutionary leader’s wife Nadezhda Krupskaya said that when the revolutionary leader was dying she read him a tale by London:
     

    Love of Life – it is still lying on the table in his room. It was a very fine story. In a wilderness of ice, where no human being had set foot, a sick man, dying of hunger, is making for the harbour of a big river. His strength is giving out, he cannot walk but keeps slipping, and beside him there slides a wolf – also dying of hunger. There is a fight between them: the man wins. Half-dead, half-demented, he reaches his goal. That tale greatly pleased Ilyich (Lenin). Next day he asked me to read him more Jack London.
     
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/01/reading-group-which-jack-london-book-should-we-read-in-november
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  122. @Gravity Denier
    Let us sit upon the ground, and tell sad stories of the death of nations; how some have been taken over by cultural Marxist dementia; some turned into a patchwork of quarreling identity groups; some haunted by the ghosts of past sins, real and imagined; some poisoned by their politicians; some sleeping through entertainment and video games kill'd; all murder'd: for within the hollow skull that empties the temples of a godless land keeps Death his court.

    Gravity, sit on the ground….legs crossed in, dare I say it “Indian style.” You racist.

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  123. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymouse
    Compared to Maya Angelou, Kipling is Shakespear. But come on--Kipling's poetry is doggerel and his sentiments are sententious. No wonder he was so popular. IMO Kipling's immortality rests on his novel Kim and, for the kids, the Just So Stories.

    Hey, stop already with the cultural appropriation of the great Sri Lankan playwright Shakesperera.

    But Kipling’s great ability is precisely because of his lack of depth. He perfectly exemplifies what Duhem called the “shallow but ample mind”, which typifies (according to Duhem) the genius of the English people. So Kipling took the normal thoughts that occurred to him as he read the newspapers or as he generally went along in life –he was a great observer– and wrote up, inimitably, “what oft was thought but ne’er so well expressed” (to quote a famous cleric).

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    • Replies: @Anon
    The English are great observers of the natural world: Shakespeare, Locke, Newton, Darwin.
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  124. Lowe says:
    @Lowe
    You think a university president would expel students for painting over a wall in the student union? Maybe if they painted a swastika on it. Otherwise, no, that will never happen.

    By the way, it is not possible to make university credits not transferrable. It is entirely the choice of another school whether some credits transfer, so outside the control of the original school. They could refuse to give a transcript, but this probably would not work, particularly in the contentious situation you describe.

    Comment was directed at Anon[324].

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  125. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    “The Man Who Would Be King” provided the 69-year-old John Huston, who more or less invented film noir in his early 30s"

    Hold it hold it. Invented the film noir? Seriously? How about Raoul Walsh's High Sierra (also in 1941). Huston had more duds than greats in his career.


    "and perhaps Hollywood’s single most memorable personality, with the story that kicked off his impressive comeback in old age."

    The film was so-so, not a great one by any stretch, especially when one thinks of the great films of the same era. Huston also had plenty of duds during his old age as well: Annie; that film about satanism/witchcraft; film he did on soccer with Stallone and Pele or something. In other words, once Huston stopped making films with Bogart his career seemed to take a turn for mostly the worst.

    "He's not much as a director unless he has Bogie to help him out"--John Wayne, he worked with Huston on the real bad stinker "The Barbarian and the Geisha"

    Also, Hollywood was and is filled with tons of memorable personalities just as great as if not surpassing Houston: DeMille; John Ford; Hitchcock; Raoul Walsh; Orson Welles (who definitely was a greater filmmaker than Huston).

    I wonder how many Millennials can name numerous John Huston films today? (excluding of course any film school students) But that does tend to happen when one's films mostly fail at the box office over a decades span of time.

    Film noir really started in the late 1940s with those beautiful, shadowy black and white films depicting soldiers fresh from the killing fields of Europe and the Pacific islands getting into stateside trouble with get-rich-quick schemes and shady dames.

    Houston’s The Maltese Falcon (1941), while a great crime film, is not typically noir. The film’s greatness lies in its ability to be engaging despite the fact that it is really a collection of scenes with guys sitting around in rooms talking. Chalk it up to the script, acting talent involved, and Houston’s finesse with the camera.

    Houston went on to make The Kremlin Letter (1970), an under-appreciated espionage thriller.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Not exactly so much Huston's finesse with the camera but also a practical element. Most of the main actors were 5'6" and under. At times the camera angles appear to have been shot with the lense literally on the ground looking upward, and most likely for that practical reason. Two reasons why Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet were in a few films with Bogart. Both were at times contracted to Warners. The other reason, namely, that both men were shorter than Bogart, who wasn't a very tall man.

    There's a reason why Ward Bond doesn't stand directly next to Bogart until the final scene (or at least the camera angles don't focus on that aspect until the end).

    And Ward Bond was one of the greatest supporting actors in all of the classic Hollywood era, perhaps of the entire 20th century.
    , @dfordoom

    Film noir really started in the late 1940s with those beautiful, shadowy black and white films depicting soldiers fresh from the killing fields of Europe and the Pacific islands getting into stateside trouble with get-rich-quick schemes and shady dames.
     
    Double Indemnity (1944) is probably the first full-blown American film noir. Also Fritz Lang's 1944 The Woman in the Window (depending on how you feel about the ending).

    You need a doomed hero but it has to be at least partly his own fault. You need a femme fatale. You need an atmosphere of moral corruption. You need the noir visual style. The Maltese Falcon has some noirish elements but it's not real noir. My theory is that John Huston could never have made a genuine film noir. He just wasn't misanthropic or despairing enough. Billy Wilder on the other hand had more than enough misanthropy to pull it off. Fritz Lang's noirs were Catholic noirs, which is another story.
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  126. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    “The Man Who Would Be King” provided the 69-year-old John Huston, who more or less invented film noir in his early 30s"

    Hold it hold it. Invented the film noir? Seriously? How about Raoul Walsh's High Sierra (also in 1941). Huston had more duds than greats in his career.


    "and perhaps Hollywood’s single most memorable personality, with the story that kicked off his impressive comeback in old age."

    The film was so-so, not a great one by any stretch, especially when one thinks of the great films of the same era. Huston also had plenty of duds during his old age as well: Annie; that film about satanism/witchcraft; film he did on soccer with Stallone and Pele or something. In other words, once Huston stopped making films with Bogart his career seemed to take a turn for mostly the worst.

    "He's not much as a director unless he has Bogie to help him out"--John Wayne, he worked with Huston on the real bad stinker "The Barbarian and the Geisha"

    Also, Hollywood was and is filled with tons of memorable personalities just as great as if not surpassing Houston: DeMille; John Ford; Hitchcock; Raoul Walsh; Orson Welles (who definitely was a greater filmmaker than Huston).

    I wonder how many Millennials can name numerous John Huston films today? (excluding of course any film school students) But that does tend to happen when one's films mostly fail at the box office over a decades span of time.

    Yojimbo, Hmmm, “Maltese Falcon” and “Treasure of the Sierra Madres” are both great films, but are you saying they are only good because of Bogart?

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Does appear to be the obvious point. The other being, that the Maltese Falcon at times gets more of an elite mention by the film school/film historians because it was John Huston's debut directing film. The question at times does come up: which film made Bogart a leading man Alister in his own right? The case can be made for either film. Most of the time, however, the Maltese Falcon is given the nod, even though both films were made in the same year.

    If anything, Raoul Walsh has often gotten thrown by the wayside among established elite opinion of film historians. Perhaps because he didn't win an Oscar, which Huston did (Treasure of the Sierra Madre), which of course starred Bogart. Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film. In other words, its unlikely that Huston could've directed a film such as Goodfellas or even the Godfather series, whereas Walsh could easily have directed such films and made them classics. Walsh did direct one of the earliest gangster films in the 1910's and was an established Alist director before either Huston or John Ford.

    High Sierra, however, (and Casablanca and later the Caine Mutiny) does help to demonstrate that Bogart didn't need Huston to make him a lasting great star (as he delivered indelible performances in these films), whereas Huston needed to rely more on Bogart for his great films. Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston's non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.

    In the final analysis, Bogart proved his range as an actor no matter the director, whereas the jury is still out with John Huston being considered one of the greatest ever directors of classic Hollywood, especially when Bogart is not in the film.

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  127. @Tim Howells
    My personal favorite rendition:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poz6W0znOfk

    Tim, you beat me to it. :)

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  128. @Anon
    "Virtue" does, however, rhyme perfectly well with "hurt you".

    Eye rime is a completely different issue and its use is subject to any number of considerations. But it's certainly true that English is much less of a naturally rhyming language than, say, Spanish or Italian. On the other hand our rhythmic effects are quite impossible in, say, French, which is mostly devoid of stress accents. Our poetic tradition (end-rhymed with accentual-syllabic metre) derives from medieval Latin verse, which displaced the native alliterative and accentual forms common to Anglo-Saxon England. At least we don't have a quantitative system which would make no sense at all in English; it barely even makes sense in Latin.

    Anon, Tiger. Tiger burning bright. In the forest of the night. What immortal hand or eye, could frame your fearful symmetry. This is the only example of Eye-rhyme I can remember.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Mr. Buffalo*,

    That was absolutely brilliant! I wish I could upvote it.

    But I've got another one:
    It is an ancient Mariner,
    And he stoppeth one of three.
    "By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
    Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?

    *In the style of Leonardo da Vinci, do your friends call you Giuseppe da Buffalo?

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  129. I wish I could remember who first used the term — might’ve been Tom Bethell — but Maya Angelou was certainly an excellent example of a QuotaPoet. No good, but sufficiently black.

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  130. @Bragadocious
    Problem with Kipling is that he was such a cheerleader for invasion and colonialism. Pretty typical back then that the artistic community including poets would support military aggression. I'm actually shocked that they took his poem down, since so many Brits remain convinced that they were in India to help install high-speed Internet.

    “White Man’s Burden” is not cheerleading for colonialism. It’s the opposite, it’s an ironic condemnation of the notion that it’s white man’s job to civilise the natives, it jeers at the idea. Its message, crudely put, is “Fuck those people. Fuck them.” .

    Have a read of it.

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  131. anon[192] • Disclaimer says:

    So why can’t some other “student leaders” paint over the Angelou poem and put “If” back up on the wall? Why always let the left crazies get the last word?

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Because the cucks don't fight for anything. Here is something the French did a while back. Ramzpaul just interviewed her.

    https://news.artnet.com/art-world/racist-porn-star-vandalizes-paris-street-art-310108

    The president of FSU is moving some statue because the person was connected to slavery. The Great Shuttening of the West continues apace.

    , @Almost Missouri
    Because the administrators are fellow lefties who secretly approve of the vandalism.
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  132. @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    Unfortunately, Bush not only wasn’t paying attention in History class at Yale, he wasn’t paying attention in English class at Andover.

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  133. @vinteuil
    placeboing was beyond brilliant. seems to have more or less dried up, though. too bad.

    The 2016 election and aftermath was a special time. So much great material.

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  134. @sfoil
    Milton didn't rhyme Paradise Lost, even including a prefatory "defense" for doing so. Of course Shakespeare used blank verse in his plays as well. Much later, the Modernists knew what they were doing. The problem isn't good poets altering or abandoning classical forms, but lessers aping them.

    sfoil, Detention at my Catholic boys HS consisted of squatting like a baseball catcher while memorizing a page of “Paradise Lost.’ No one ever succeeded in early release by being able to quote the required passages. One hour plus extra time for goofing a round or farting. Fifty year reunion was a gathering of old men with gimpy knees.

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    • Replies: @Reactionary Utopian

    One hour plus extra time for goofing a round or farting. Fifty year reunion was a gathering of old men with gimpy knees.
     
    Buffalo Joe, I suspect it’s a rare man at a 50th high school reunion who doesn’t have a pair of used-up knees. Give ‘em the benefit of the doubt.
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  135. @vinteuil
    https://youtu.be/EEFMVIfl2UY

    Why does Sir Michael Caine, a trained actor, misread the script?

    Kipling wrote, “don’t look too good, nor talk too wise”;
    Caine says, “don’t look too good, nor look too wise”.

    Kipling wrote, “fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run”;
    Caine recalibrates this minute to, unaccountably, “forty seconds”.

    And this recitation is not from memory; he is reading the poem from a book.

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    • Replies: @Anon

    Kipling wrote, “fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run”;
     
    What does this even mean?
    , @vinteuil

    Why does Sir Michael Caine, a trained actor, misread the script?
     
    He's old?
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  136. Off to Ellis Island to scrub Emma Lazarus’ poem and replace it with some rap lyrics. That should blow their minds.

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    • Replies: @Yak-15
    That would cause amazing acts of confusion amongst the left.
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  137. @Bragadocious
    Problem with Kipling is that he was such a cheerleader for invasion and colonialism. Pretty typical back then that the artistic community including poets would support military aggression. I'm actually shocked that they took his poem down, since so many Brits remain convinced that they were in India to help install high-speed Internet.

    The Brits did help India.

    1. India, after the decline of Mughal dynasty, was continually invaded from the western Asia, Nadir Shar, Ahmed Shah Abdali, etc. Indian rulers were sufficiently ruthless to exploit native population but kept getting their ass kicked by the invaders. British provided at least a hundred years of relative peace.

    2. Most of India was fragmented into minor kingdoms. The major power, Marathas, were divided into various clans. British (to some extent) unified the country into one administrative unit. Most of the Indian administration, from IAS system to courts, is a legacy of the British raj.

    3. Modern education system that produced the future leaders & administrators of India. Most native Indian princes and princelings tended to be vicious cunts who spent far too much time with harlots and hunting. Had the British left without leaving behind a new educated Indian elite class, the country would have reverted back to feudalism.

    4. British effectively defanged all princely states making unification of India after Independence possible. Had there been no British Raj, India would have been divided into 25 new countries instead of merely three.

    While one could argue that British did it not out of altruism but their own self interest, it is undeniable that Raj was a net positive to India, something Brits can take pride in.

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    • Replies: @Bragadocious
    This type of pro-empire BS is precisely what I'm talking about. I suggest you do some reading about the Bengal Famine of 1943-44 when the Brits turned away free shipments of rice from Canada & the U.S. to alleviate the suffering of those people you pretend to care about. Intentional famines were British policy from the very beginning of the Raj. They ordered Indians to grow opium instead of rice to help British trade with catastrophic results for the natives.
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  138. @Lot
    I had a look at the BBC 100 favorite poems of Britons referenced in the article. I was pleasantly surprised by the near lack of modern and PC dreck, instead lots of Olde England romantic stuff and militarism. Steve's most quoted Ozymandias is no. 30

    Sorry if my dislike for No 1 offends. Road Not Taken might well top an American version of the list and is bad for similar reasons. The best American poem on the British list is Song of Hiawatha.

    Alas that was the 1990s – very few of those poets will feature on the modern English curriculum in the UK. Gone will be Tennyson, de la Mare, Brooke, Gray, Masefield.

    Jenny Joseph’s wishful thinking will still be there, and Larkin’s This Be The Verse. There’ll be a lot more Carol Ann Duffy, and a lot more agitprop like this (in my kids schoolbooks)

    Excuse me
    Standing on one leg
    I’m half-caste

    Explain yuself
    Wha yu mean
    When yu say half-caste
    Yu mean when picasso
    Mix red an green
    Is a half-caste canvas?
    Explain yuself
    Wha u mean
    When yu say half-caste
    Yu mean when light an shadow
    Mix in de sky
    Is a half-caste weather??
    Well in dat case
    England weather
    Nearly always half-caste
    In fact some o dem cloud
    Half-caste till dem overcast
    So spiteful dem dont want de sun pass
    Ah rass
    Explain yuself
    Wha yu mean
    When yu say half-caste?
    Yu mean tchaikovsky
    Sit down at dah piano
    An mix a black key
    Wid a white key
    Is a half-caste symphony?

    Explain yuself
    Wha yu mean
    Ah listening to yu wid de keen
    Half of mih ear
    Ah looking at u wid de keen
    Half of mih eye
    And when I’m introduced to yu
    I’m sure you’ll understand
    Why I offer yu half-a-hand
    An when I sleep at night
    I close half-a-eye
    Consequently when I dream
    I dream half-a-dream
    An when moon begin to glow
    I half-caste human being
    Cast half-a-shadow
    But yu come back tomorrow
    Wid de whole of yu eye
    An de whole of yu ear
    And de whole of yu mind

    An I will tell yu
    De other half
    Of my story

    I quote

    This John Agard poem criticises the use of the term “half-caste”, a popular British slur against mixed-race individuals.

    The poem demonstrates Agard’s subtle cleverness. He assumes naivety and mock-stupidity, asks the listener to ‘explain’ what he means when he uses the insulting term ‘half-caste’. He then applies the idea of incompleteness, implied by the term, to the world around us. So, the insult is converted to a joke when Agard says, for example, ‘…mix a black key/Wid a white key/Is a half-caste symphony?’.

    The overriding tone of this poem is humorous, the most effective way, as Agard is no doubt aware, to achieve understanding. There are, however, mocking, sarcastic undertones. The poem works best when spoken aloud in performance.

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  139. syonredux says:
    @Tex

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone’s radar,or has he already been “un personned?”
     
    London seems to fly beneath the radar, but you think he'd make a perfect target, racially conscious, devoted to masculinity, and popular with traditional readers. The funny part is, he was hugely popular in the Soviet Union, thanks in part to London's avowed socialist politics. Lenin was a fan, albeit with reservations. I was just reading about kids enjoying Jack London books in Stalingrad in the days before the Wehrmacht hit the city.

    In her book Memories of Lenin, the revolutionary leader’s wife Nadezhda Krupskaya said that when the revolutionary leader was dying she read him a tale by London:

    Love of Life – it is still lying on the table in his room. It was a very fine story. In a wilderness of ice, where no human being had set foot, a sick man, dying of hunger, is making for the harbour of a big river. His strength is giving out, he cannot walk but keeps slipping, and beside him there slides a wolf – also dying of hunger. There is a fight between them: the man wins. Half-dead, half-demented, he reaches his goal. That tale greatly pleased Ilyich (Lenin). Next day he asked me to read him more Jack London.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/01/reading-group-which-jack-london-book-should-we-read-in-november

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  140. Flip says:
    @Logwarrior
    Another day, and another story like this that would have me voting for Putin or Orban over any Democrat if they would stop the 3rd world contamination.

    The Ryan/McCain/Jeb! Republicans aren’t any better.

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  141. @julius caesar
    Some "British" students quoted here are: Sara Khan, Fatima Abid.

    Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, has looks very promising.

    Some “British” students quoted here are: Sara Khan, Fatima Abid.
    Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, looks very promising.

    What’s needed is a dose of “separationism”.

    It’s pointless to “debate” with any of these people–they aren’t interesting in the sort of logical argument “fair play” of the Anglo-Saxons.

    Rather the way to respond is “Ok, you don’t like our culture, let’s have separate ‘British’ and ‘rainbow’ unions. Each to his own.”

    This is what scares them. Because at root this sort of stuff–as with the “Becky” thing or “white privilege”, immigration, “diversity”–is really about parasitism. I’ve called out the core ideology as Jewish “minoritarianism”–minorities good majorities bad. But it is really about parasitism.

    White (heterosexual) gentiles absolutely positively must not be allowed to have their own stuff–schools, country clubs, neighborhoods, nations.

    It can’t be about “oppression” because if it’s about oppression, then all these people would not be clamoring to get *in*–to get all cosy with their supposed oppressors. Rather they would be happy–actually prefer–being in their own schools and country clubs, neighborhoods and nations doing their own stuff.

    No the ideology here is parasitism. Gloming onto whitey’s stuff. First to take his stuff and use it. But beyond that to wreck it and make sure whitey can’t build good stuff and enjoy it while you don’t.

    Call ‘em out on this. Propose the modest solution of “separationism” and you unmask them for the parasites that they are.

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    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Well put. There is absolutely zero logic to the anti-white male hysteria. If we're so terrible, minorities should be more than happy for us to have our own schools and clubs. They should be jump for joy. But they don't. Indeed, we're not even allowed to suggest it. The fact that even suggesting that whites have their schools, neighborhoods, clubs, etc., is the most evil thing ever shows that this is what they are most afraid of.

    I've argued for a long time that the best future for whites is to set up a separate society within the coming Brazil of the North, in essense, separationism. Yeah, I'd rather that we have our own country, but that's not going to happen. We'll need to learn to live within the crappy multi-everything country that will be the United States.

    It would need to start small. Maybe a European-American student association or business association. Nothing political. Once that becomes accepted, move toward European-American lobby groups and communities.

    Civic Nationalism has no real future. The best that we can hope for is to carve out our own space in a larger society.
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  142. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cagey Beast
    Young women get an emotional high out of enforcing social rules in a way that gets them attention and defies "Daddy". Our crappy liberal-libertine consumer culture gives them nothing but encouragement, so it escalates.

    This girl should be sent to uplift Manchester's Muslim community.

    Maybe they just get a high from enforcing social rules. Full Stop.

    Why is that?

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    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Yes, they get a high out of enforcing social rules, full stop. They also get a high out of getting attention, full stop and defying Daddy, full stop. Combine all three and that's a lot of incentive.

    Why do they get a high from enforcing social rules? Probably because they're bossy little mommies manqué. They want to be seen to be good little rule enforcers probably because girls historically left their own families (defied Daddy) and had to then prove their loyalty, virtue and maternal competence to their new mother-in-law and sisters-in-law. Just my guess.

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  143. The poem says nothing that non-whites could possibly be offended by unless they are offended by the idea of getting yourself off your big fat rear end and trying to make your life work through sheer determination.

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  144. A couple early lines of “The Explorer”:

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Five_Nations/The_Explorer

    “Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges—
    “Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!”

    are in the dining hall at Camp Parsons. (Where i was with my son three times in my active scoutmastering days.) Of course it helps if you actually have the Olympic Mountains looming up above camp.

    Always liked the vibe of that. Hope they kept that sign when they rebuilt the dining hall a few years back.

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  145. @Lowe
    The danger of being a very successful person is being surrounded by sycophants, who won't tell you you're steering the ship into an iceberg until it is too late.

    Are his remarks now too little, too late, to stave off disaster for the Democratic party? He had so much to do with setting their disastrous course.

    It’s remarkable how quickly everyone near power seemed to forget that running Obama as “leader of the free world” was a desperate, faith-based move by the Establishment. Obama was rushed into the presidential politics with the paint still wet on him. The Mocha Messiah was sent to soothe and reassure the European provinces of American empire even before he was in office. Silly Norwegian cat ladies threw a Nobel peace prize at him just for being more like Sidney Poitier than Bush Jr. And Bush Jr was himself an untested candidate people had hoped would be less interventionist than his predecessor.

    I guess my point is that the current mess has been a long time coming.

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  146. @AnotherDad

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.
     
    What's wrong with middlebrow?

    The truth is most of the "truths" people can and need to learn aren't exactly rocket science, they really are "middlebrow".

    Off the top of my head:
    -- treat other people like you want to be treated
    -- you are responsible for yourself--got a problem? look in the mirror
    -- clean up after yourself
    -- try hard
    -- build your brain, read, study, learn, educate yourself--keep learning all the time
    -- listen--you don't know it all
    -- not everyone is like you, not everyone agrees with you, and sometimes they are right
    -- learn from your mistakes; even better other people's mistakes
    -- be a good neighbor, but …
    -- don't be a doormat
    -- stand up for yourself, but …
    -- learn to keep your mouth shut when appropriate
    -- choose your battles
    -- be productive, do useful work, create, build
    -- try it yourself ... but ask for help if you really can't figure it out
    -- finish
    -- be true to your commitments
    -- work hard, but …
    -- life isn't just work--leave time for recreation, hobbies, friends and most of all family
    -- have fun, but ...
    -- real happiness is not the same as pleasure
    -- drink … in moderation
    -- eat … in moderation
    -- exercise
    -- real happiness--for most--will come from building a family
    -- people are different
    -- most people aren't like you, don't think like you
    -- you can't solve other people's problems, fix other people's lives
    -- if you are "saving the world" … you are making it worse
    -- "saving the world" won't make you happy
    -- to really "save the world", be productive, take care of your family, neighborhood and nation
    -- stay out of other peoples' business
    -- keep foreigners from invading and settling your nation**

    ... and yet many people just won't "get" this middlebrow wisdom.

    (**Yes Lot, i'm looking at you here.)

    Follow the Teen Commandments!

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  147. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bragadocious
    Problem with Kipling is that he was such a cheerleader for invasion and colonialism. Pretty typical back then that the artistic community including poets would support military aggression. I'm actually shocked that they took his poem down, since so many Brits remain convinced that they were in India to help install high-speed Internet.

    since so many Brits remain convinced that they were in India to help install high-speed Internet.

    They were, at least its earlier century equivalents.

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  148. Cortes says:
    @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    Rudyard the Racist. Maybe Rudyard will takes its place alongside Becky in progressive onomastics.

    A piece of Kipling imperialist doggerel associated with H. Rider Haggard is the McGuffin featured in the third of Lawrence Block’s “Burglar” series.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Rhodenbarr

    Very amusing.

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  149. OT:Steve, you have to know about this kid. Coleman Hughes is a prodigy. I believe he is a sophomore at Columbia. Here’s a taste:

    “No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income.”

    I think he’s a rapper and a jazz musician as well.

    https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black-american-culture-and-the-racial-wealth-gap/

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    You could buy a smartphone in 2013 for like 30 dollars. Hardly a luxury item.
    , @res
    And this:

    Similar disparities emerge when people are grouped by religion. A 2003 study found that Jewish households had a 7-to-1 wealth advantage over Conservative Protestant households, despite the fact that Protestants have been favored over Jews for most of American history. Because facts like these discredit the assumption that government favoritism drives wealth accrual, they don’t make it into the progressive narrative.
     
    Thanks for linking that article. I had not seen it. Some more about Coleman Hughes in my comment from last month: https://www.unz.com/isteve/doesnt-sound-too-promising/#comment-2354438
    , @Steve Sailer
    Thanks
    , @Reg Cæsar

    I think he’s a rapper and a jazz musician as well.

     

    That's like being a portraitist and a graffiti tagger. A classical odist and a Borscht Belt comedian. A schoolteacher and a child molester. (Oh, wait...)


    Do any American diners have teppanyaki hash-slingers?
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  150. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    I had a look at the BBC 100 favorite poems of Britons referenced in the article. I was pleasantly surprised by the near lack of modern and PC dreck, instead lots of Olde England romantic stuff and militarism. Steve's most quoted Ozymandias is no. 30

    Sorry if my dislike for No 1 offends. Road Not Taken might well top an American version of the list and is bad for similar reasons. The best American poem on the British list is Song of Hiawatha.

    What is bad about road not taken?

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  151. @Charles Pewitt
    Thomas Hardy was a literary genius; Rudyard Kipling was a propaganda twat for the British Empire.

    Young morons attacking Kipling? I want some of these young anti-Kipling morons to go bananas and detonate the debt bomb. The crazier some of the young people go, the more likely they are to repudiate the government debt. The Bank of England has been engaging in the same type of monetary extremism that the Federal Reserve Bank and the other globalized central banks have been doing.

    In the United States, trillion dollar deficits are just around the corner. Hundreds of trillions of dollars of total government debt and liabilities remain unpayable. Let the young turds say Whitey is bad and we ain't paying the debt.

    Young White patriots will do what they must to restore European Christendom and cancel the debts. The answer to Odious Debt is a Debt Jubilee. And yes, most of you born before 1965 will be financially liquidated. Tough shit, you cowards deserve what is coming to you.

    Turning away from European Christendom? Pulling up the roots of the European Christian people? Let those bastards go hog wild crazy! Smoke them out and then deport those anti-White bastards. Young White rats attacking their own people and their own ancestors should be deported to Africa immediately and swiftly. That's a pun, folks!

    The way European Christendom is going to be saved and rejuvenated is during the tumult when the asset bubbles and debt cooked up by the globalized central banks goes belly up.

    If you are not talking about central banking you are full of shit or in the pocket of the globalizers.

    What’s your literary opinion of How to Win Friends and Influence People?

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  152. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country
    OT (sort of): Trevor Noah of the Daily Show gets in a tiff with the French ambassador for noticing that the "French" team is mostly Africans.

    I don't watch the Daily Show, but I'm pretty certain that Noah is a DB. However, in this case, he's simply pointing that race matters, that you never lose your ancestry. Noah was proud of the black guys who won the World Cup because he's part black. The French ambassador argued that once you become a French citizen, you are French. He's wrong.

    What a stupid, stupid world we live in.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/trevor-noah-fires-back-at-french-ambassador-who-criticized-world-cup-joke/ar-AAAhmEu?ocid=spartandhp

    Noah is trying to eviscerate or appropriate French identity for Africans, while retaining a racial identity for Africans.

    It is conquest (or attempted conquest) at the level of groups, but also effectively at the level of territory.

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  153. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Its kind of the perfect anti-SJW poem, though.

     

    I think that this is Kipling's best anti-SJW poem:


    The Gods of the Copybook Headings

    AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
    I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
    Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

    We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
    That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
    But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
    So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

    We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

    With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
    They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
    They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
    So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.


    When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

    On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
    (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
    Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

    Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
    And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
    That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;


    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

    Who are the Gods of the Copybook headings?

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    "Who are the Gods of the Copybook headings?"

    The "copybook headings" to which the title refers were proverbs or maxims, extolling age old wisdom - virtues such as honesty or fair dealing that were printed at the top of the pages of 19th-century British students' special notebooks, called copybooks. The school-children had to write them by hand repeatedly down the page. However, the marketplaces were areas that dishonesty and immorality ruled. The Gods (or principles) of the marketplace represent selfishness, reckless progress, over-indulgence and a failure to learn from the past.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_of_the_Copybook_Headings
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  154. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Anon, Tiger. Tiger burning bright. In the forest of the night. What immortal hand or eye, could frame your fearful symmetry. This is the only example of Eye-rhyme I can remember.

    Mr. Buffalo*,

    That was absolutely brilliant! I wish I could upvote it.

    But I’ve got another one:
    It is an ancient Mariner,
    And he stoppeth one of three.
    “By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
    Now wherefore stopp’st thou me?

    *In the style of Leonardo da Vinci, do your friends call you Giuseppe da Buffalo?

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Anon, you're a funny guy, but my mother, now two weeks short of her 101st birthday, still calls me Peppe or Peppino . Should have thought of Giuseppe da Buffalo as my "pseudonymic handle."
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  155. @Wilkey
    My favorite aspect of Black Panther was that the tribe that decides to support Killmonger against "the good guy" is called "the Border Tribe," which struck me as an explicit effort to bash defenders of borders.

    But most hilarious of all is the line at the end of the movie: "But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers."

    After watching a movie 99.998% is ridiculously impossible we're suddenly supposed to be taking advice on real world matters. I'd like to see if Bob Iger or anyone else involved in the making of Black Panther has barriers in front of their house. It could make a great meme.

    I don’t know why any self-respecting white person would go and see the movie black panther. I don’t know what race you are but if you’re white I would imagine there’s better things to do with your money.

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    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Well I didn't exactly go anywhere to see it. I sure as hell wouldnt have spent money to see it in a movie theatre. We watched it on Netflix or something. I knew it would be utter crap, but occasionally you have to watch utter crap in order to have an informed opinion on the Genre of Utter Crap. I figured I could up my credibility twice as fast by watching a movie with a mostly black cast.
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  156. @Buffalo Joe
    sfoil, Detention at my Catholic boys HS consisted of squatting like a baseball catcher while memorizing a page of "Paradise Lost.' No one ever succeeded in early release by being able to quote the required passages. One hour plus extra time for goofing a round or farting. Fifty year reunion was a gathering of old men with gimpy knees.

    One hour plus extra time for goofing a round or farting. Fifty year reunion was a gathering of old men with gimpy knees.

    Buffalo Joe, I suspect it’s a rare man at a 50th high school reunion who doesn’t have a pair of used-up knees. Give ‘em the benefit of the doubt.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    RU, we probably all had gimpy knees at our tenth reunion and hair.
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  157. @Anonymous Bosch
    Nothing new here. As Orwell observed back in the 1940s, "during five literary generations every enlightened person has despised [Kipling], and at the end of that time nine-tenths of those enlightened persons are forgotten and Kipling is in some sense still there." (http://www.orwell.ru/library/reviews/kipling/english/e_rkip ) I'm willing to wager that Kipling will outlast this generation of goons as well.

    Incidentally, Orwell's analysis of why the "enlightened" classes hated Kipling is still quite interesting. One crucial reason, Orwell argues, is that Kipling "sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them", and he sides with the practical men who does the guarding and the feeding. Basically, the enlightened hated him for pointing out that they "mock the uniforms that guard you while you sleep".

    As for "If" in particular, I like the poem as long as I manage to forget that the poem was a tribute to Leander Starr Jameson, the bumbling leader of the botched raid against the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek back in 1895 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid ). My ancestors easily whipped him and his mercenaries, and did not hold him in particularly high regard as a soldier. Contrary to the poem, he did not keep his head and could not wait. Somehow the British press managed to make a defeat look like a victory, and turned Leander into a lion. In fairness, he seems to have been a good medical man. His patients included Paul Kruger and Lobengula, and all spoke highly of him in that regard.

    I’m willing to wager that Kipling will outlast this generation of goons as well.

    The Chinese will be reading Kip Ling’s “Lift up the Yellow Man’s Burden”, long after “Europe” is extinguished, just a wasteland of waddling oil well pumpers swaddled in burquas.

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  158. tyrone says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Tiny, if only you had a son who was moved aside on an escalator by a white woman then you could write at the level of Ta Nehisi Coates. "Odious trite bilge" indeed.

    Oh no ,tiny would have a theyby, never a son!

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  159. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Hey, stop already with the cultural appropriation of the great Sri Lankan playwright Shakesperera.

    But Kipling's great ability is precisely because of his lack of depth. He perfectly exemplifies what Duhem called the "shallow but ample mind", which typifies (according to Duhem) the genius of the English people. So Kipling took the normal thoughts that occurred to him as he read the newspapers or as he generally went along in life --he was a great observer-- and wrote up, inimitably, "what oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed" (to quote a famous cleric).

    The English are great observers of the natural world: Shakespeare, Locke, Newton, Darwin.

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  160. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    Why does Sir Michael Caine, a trained actor, misread the script?

    Kipling wrote, "don't look too good, nor talk too wise";
    Caine says, "don't look too good, nor look too wise".

    Kipling wrote, "fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run";
    Caine recalibrates this minute to, unaccountably, "forty seconds".

    And this recitation is not from memory; he is reading the poem from a book.

    Kipling wrote, “fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run”;

    What does this even mean?

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    • Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian
    Fill the time that you have with accomplishments; time only runs one way, and you will never get wasted time back to remediate your sloth.
    , @Anon
    It means, in modern parlance, that you've got to give it 100% all the time, you can't just coast. If Caine changed it to forty seconds, that's hilarious, it means you only need to give a 66% effort.
    , @vinteuil

    What does this even mean?
     
    Something pretty close to this:

    O gentlemen, the time of life is short;
    To spend that shortness basely were too long
    If life did ride upon a dial’s point,
    Still ending at the arrival of an hour.
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  161. AndrewR says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose
    OT:Steve, you have to know about this kid. Coleman Hughes is a prodigy. I believe he is a sophomore at Columbia. Here's a taste:

    "No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income."

    I think he's a rapper and a jazz musician as well.

    https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black-american-culture-and-the-racial-wealth-gap/

    You could buy a smartphone in 2013 for like 30 dollars. Hardly a luxury item.

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  162. Dmitry says:

    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

    No Lermontov.
    Just skillful, middle-level poetry for popular consumption.
    And the American replacement – unskillful, low-level poetry for political consumption.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    And the American replacement – unskillful, low-level poetry for political consumption.
     
    Black replacement, dear fellow. Be precise.
    , @Cortes
    I had the misfortune * for a while to be a colleague on a research project of a Scottish guy who was the double of Lermontov: name of Learmonth also (cue the “Twilight Zone” music):

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Lermontov

    * he was a duplicitous ****
    , @vinteuil
    Dmitry, even the best Russian poetry in the best translations comes across as pretty crappy stuff in English.

    No matter how long I live, or how hard I try, I'll never really *get* Pushkin.

    But, hey, maybe you're a multilingual genius who *gets* Kipling in the original English.
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  163. donut says:

    Good .

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  164. @AnotherDad

    Some “British” students quoted here are: Sara Khan, Fatima Abid.
    Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, looks very promising.
     

    What's needed is a dose of "separationism".

    It's pointless to "debate" with any of these people--they aren't interesting in the sort of logical argument "fair play" of the Anglo-Saxons.

    Rather the way to respond is "Ok, you don't like our culture, let's have separate 'British' and 'rainbow' unions. Each to his own."

    This is what scares them. Because at root this sort of stuff--as with the "Becky" thing or "white privilege", immigration, "diversity"--is really about parasitism. I've called out the core ideology as Jewish "minoritarianism"--minorities good majorities bad. But it is really about parasitism.

    White (heterosexual) gentiles absolutely positively must not be allowed to have their own stuff--schools, country clubs, neighborhoods, nations.

    It can't be about "oppression" because if it's about oppression, then all these people would not be clamoring to get *in*--to get all cosy with their supposed oppressors. Rather they would be happy--actually prefer--being in their own schools and country clubs, neighborhoods and nations doing their own stuff.

    No the ideology here is parasitism. Gloming onto whitey's stuff. First to take his stuff and use it. But beyond that to wreck it and make sure whitey can't build good stuff and enjoy it while you don't.

    Call 'em out on this. Propose the modest solution of "separationism" and you unmask them for the parasites that they are.

    Well put. There is absolutely zero logic to the anti-white male hysteria. If we’re so terrible, minorities should be more than happy for us to have our own schools and clubs. They should be jump for joy. But they don’t. Indeed, we’re not even allowed to suggest it. The fact that even suggesting that whites have their schools, neighborhoods, clubs, etc., is the most evil thing ever shows that this is what they are most afraid of.

    I’ve argued for a long time that the best future for whites is to set up a separate society within the coming Brazil of the North, in essense, separationism. Yeah, I’d rather that we have our own country, but that’s not going to happen. We’ll need to learn to live within the crappy multi-everything country that will be the United States.

    It would need to start small. Maybe a European-American student association or business association. Nothing political. Once that becomes accepted, move toward European-American lobby groups and communities.

    Civic Nationalism has no real future. The best that we can hope for is to carve out our own space in a larger society.

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    • Replies: @Rob McX

    Civic Nationalism has no real future. The best that we can hope for is to carve out our own space in a larger society.
     
    Whatever about the future of civic nationalism, the multiculturalists don't want whites having their own communities within what were their own countries, even though non-whites are always complaining about whites and should logically want to get away from them. After all, having all-white enclaves would only be a transitional step towards forming their own countries again and keeping non-whites out. Whites would start asking themselves "Why are we supporting these people? They're just a burden on us. Let's have our own countries like in the old days - with borders around them". And so history would repeat itself - homogeneous nation states.
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  165. @julius caesar
    The Brits did help India.

    1. India, after the decline of Mughal dynasty, was continually invaded from the western Asia, Nadir Shar, Ahmed Shah Abdali, etc. Indian rulers were sufficiently ruthless to exploit native population but kept getting their ass kicked by the invaders. British provided at least a hundred years of relative peace.

    2. Most of India was fragmented into minor kingdoms. The major power, Marathas, were divided into various clans. British (to some extent) unified the country into one administrative unit. Most of the Indian administration, from IAS system to courts, is a legacy of the British raj.

    3. Modern education system that produced the future leaders & administrators of India. Most native Indian princes and princelings tended to be vicious cunts who spent far too much time with harlots and hunting. Had the British left without leaving behind a new educated Indian elite class, the country would have reverted back to feudalism.

    4. British effectively defanged all princely states making unification of India after Independence possible. Had there been no British Raj, India would have been divided into 25 new countries instead of merely three.

    While one could argue that British did it not out of altruism but their own self interest, it is undeniable that Raj was a net positive to India, something Brits can take pride in.

    This type of pro-empire BS is precisely what I’m talking about. I suggest you do some reading about the Bengal Famine of 1943-44 when the Brits turned away free shipments of rice from Canada & the U.S. to alleviate the suffering of those people you pretend to care about. Intentional famines were British policy from the very beginning of the Raj. They ordered Indians to grow opium instead of rice to help British trade with catastrophic results for the natives.

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  166. res says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose
    OT:Steve, you have to know about this kid. Coleman Hughes is a prodigy. I believe he is a sophomore at Columbia. Here's a taste:

    "No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income."

    I think he's a rapper and a jazz musician as well.

    https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black-american-culture-and-the-racial-wealth-gap/

    And this:

    Similar disparities emerge when people are grouped by religion. A 2003 study found that Jewish households had a 7-to-1 wealth advantage over Conservative Protestant households, despite the fact that Protestants have been favored over Jews for most of American history. Because facts like these discredit the assumption that government favoritism drives wealth accrual, they don’t make it into the progressive narrative.

    Thanks for linking that article. I had not seen it. Some more about Coleman Hughes in my comment from last month: https://www.unz.com/isteve/doesnt-sound-too-promising/#comment-2354438

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Protestants have been favored over Jews? That's news to me.
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  167. Anon[755] • Disclaimer says:
    @res
    And this:

    Similar disparities emerge when people are grouped by religion. A 2003 study found that Jewish households had a 7-to-1 wealth advantage over Conservative Protestant households, despite the fact that Protestants have been favored over Jews for most of American history. Because facts like these discredit the assumption that government favoritism drives wealth accrual, they don’t make it into the progressive narrative.
     
    Thanks for linking that article. I had not seen it. Some more about Coleman Hughes in my comment from last month: https://www.unz.com/isteve/doesnt-sound-too-promising/#comment-2354438

    Protestants have been favored over Jews? That’s news to me.

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  168. @Lowe
    The danger of being a very successful person is being surrounded by sycophants, who won't tell you you're steering the ship into an iceberg until it is too late.

    Are his remarks now too little, too late, to stave off disaster for the Democratic party? He had so much to do with setting their disastrous course.

    Obama was just a callow fool. The projection onto him of characteristics that were definitively not there just played into his solipsistic narcissism. Unreflective until smacked in the face by the two by four of reality, and even then he only dimly glimpses what damage he in actuality has done after having been placed in a position to instead do some real good.

    Of course, he was always and only along for the ride on the gravy train, so what the hell am I thinking by entertaining the notion that there was ever anything positive to this empty suit.

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  169. And this piece for City Journal, which I’m sure you’ve seen:

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/black-only-schools-16000.html

    I imagine a debate between Hughes and Coates as something like the Tyson/Spinks fight.

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  170. @Anonymous
    Seriously, these things start looking like youth activity during early days of Cultural Revolution. So much for West winning the Cold War.

    Angelou's "poem" is not even a poetry. No defined rhythmic structure and barely any rhyming.

    What is it in English language that makes authors break rhyming so frequently? Surely Kipling realized that "virtue" does not rhyme with "you". There are numerous examples of this even in Shakespeare.

    Virtue does rhyme with you. And Shakespeare’s sonnets rhyme perfectly as long as you talk like a pirate. Google “original pronunciation”

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  171. @anon
    So why can't some other "student leaders" paint over the Angelou poem and put "If" back up on the wall? Why always let the left crazies get the last word?

    Because the cucks don’t fight for anything. Here is something the French did a while back. Ramzpaul just interviewed her.

    https://news.artnet.com/art-world/racist-porn-star-vandalizes-paris-street-art-310108

    The president of FSU is moving some statue because the person was connected to slavery. The Great Shuttening of the West continues apace.

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  172. @Charles Pewitt

    Harry married the negress Cheddar Woman. Some black woman was named the winner of Ms. Universe Great Britian contest. We will have to shut down everything in the West. It will be interesting to see what will be resurrected.

     

    Electronics is the thing that controls what must be shut down in the West. The electronic propaganda and the electronic banking system.

    The Bank of England and the BBC and all that stuff is what the ruling class in England uses to retain power.

    You are insane. We are communicating via electronics on the Internet.

    As to banking, I used to work in banks and electronic banking is great as long as you have standards. Banks will lend to anyone because they know they can get governments to cover their losses.

    The white Brits needs a white Brit party to start making changes. They are super cucked.

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  173. @anon
    So why can't some other "student leaders" paint over the Angelou poem and put "If" back up on the wall? Why always let the left crazies get the last word?

    Because the administrators are fellow lefties who secretly approve of the vandalism.

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  174. Rob McX says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm too untalented, but someone has to write the SJW's version of "If," starting with something like

    If you can lose your head when all about you
    Are indulging and trying to calm you,
    If you can fall apart when a friend asks you,
    "Where are you from?" and call them racist too;

    I like that. I’ve tried writing the ending:

    If you can view your Y chromosome and genitals
    And treat those two impostors just the same
    Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it;
    And – which is more – you’ll be a trans, my son!

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  175. tomv says:
    @Lot
    The problem with "If" is that it's hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I'd say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.

    Ah, the good ol’ “middlebrow” insult. You can use it against anything popular, and poseurs of all stripes do so with relish.

    Tom Wolfe is middlebrow. Carl Sagan is middlebrow. Vivaldi is middlebrow.

    If Shakespeare were still packing houses today, he, too, would be middlebrow.

    The Fringe’s contempt for the Core is nothing new, but then you went ahead and put Maya Angelou’s dross in the same category as Kipling’s If.

    Then it’s no longer Fringe vs Core, but Lunacy vs Sanity.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil

    Ah, the good ol’ “middlebrow” insult. You can use it against anything popular, and poseurs of all stripes do so with relish.
     
    Exactly. When people dismiss something as "middlebrow," they're not engaged in aesthetic judgment. They're engaged in status signalling.
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  176. pyrrhus says:
    @julius caesar
    Some "British" students quoted here are: Sara Khan, Fatima Abid.

    Civic Nationalism, that Steve seemingly advocates for, has looks very promising.

    Maya Angelou has a lot to answer for, letting that thing into print….

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  177. @Anon
    Maybe they just get a high from enforcing social rules. Full Stop.

    Why is that?

    Yes, they get a high out of enforcing social rules, full stop. They also get a high out of getting attention, full stop and defying Daddy, full stop. Combine all three and that’s a lot of incentive.

    Why do they get a high from enforcing social rules? Probably because they’re bossy little mommies manqué. They want to be seen to be good little rule enforcers probably because girls historically left their own families (defied Daddy) and had to then prove their loyalty, virtue and maternal competence to their new mother-in-law and sisters-in-law. Just my guess.

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  178. @Charles Pewitt

    The silent, sullen peoples

     


    Shall weigh your gods and you.

     

    I don't give a damn what some non-Christian or non-European wog thinks about anything.

    They should have been kept the hell out of England.

    Kipling the British Empire booster is concerned about the thoughts of some sullen nig, nog or wog?

    I think the “peers” are meant to be fellow Anglos, and “your gods and you” are the British imperial project.

    But yes, it is paradoxical how the Anglo imperial project of the 19th century imperceptibly shaded into the SJW imperial project of the 21st century.

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  179. Twinkie says:
    @Father O'Hara
    This is just the kind of stuff they're talking about!

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone's radar,or has he already been "un personned?"

    Jack London

    How could I not love the works of a man who wrote this?

    http://london.sonoma.edu/writings/Revolution/yellow.html

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  180. @Reactionary Utopian

    One hour plus extra time for goofing a round or farting. Fifty year reunion was a gathering of old men with gimpy knees.
     
    Buffalo Joe, I suspect it’s a rare man at a 50th high school reunion who doesn’t have a pair of used-up knees. Give ‘em the benefit of the doubt.

    RU, we probably all had gimpy knees at our tenth reunion and hair.

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  181. @Anon

    Kipling wrote, “fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run”;
     
    What does this even mean?

    Fill the time that you have with accomplishments; time only runs one way, and you will never get wasted time back to remediate your sloth.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil

    Fill the time that you have with accomplishments; time only runs one way, and you will never get wasted time back to remediate your sloth.
     
    Just so.
    , @Da Wei
    Well stated. Thank you.
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  182. Rob McX says:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Well put. There is absolutely zero logic to the anti-white male hysteria. If we're so terrible, minorities should be more than happy for us to have our own schools and clubs. They should be jump for joy. But they don't. Indeed, we're not even allowed to suggest it. The fact that even suggesting that whites have their schools, neighborhoods, clubs, etc., is the most evil thing ever shows that this is what they are most afraid of.

    I've argued for a long time that the best future for whites is to set up a separate society within the coming Brazil of the North, in essense, separationism. Yeah, I'd rather that we have our own country, but that's not going to happen. We'll need to learn to live within the crappy multi-everything country that will be the United States.

    It would need to start small. Maybe a European-American student association or business association. Nothing political. Once that becomes accepted, move toward European-American lobby groups and communities.

    Civic Nationalism has no real future. The best that we can hope for is to carve out our own space in a larger society.

    Civic Nationalism has no real future. The best that we can hope for is to carve out our own space in a larger society.

    Whatever about the future of civic nationalism, the multiculturalists don’t want whites having their own communities within what were their own countries, even though non-whites are always complaining about whites and should logically want to get away from them. After all, having all-white enclaves would only be a transitional step towards forming their own countries again and keeping non-whites out. Whites would start asking themselves “Why are we supporting these people? They’re just a burden on us. Let’s have our own countries like in the old days – with borders around them”. And so history would repeat itself – homogeneous nation states.

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  183. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Kipling wrote, “fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run”;
     
    What does this even mean?

    It means, in modern parlance, that you’ve got to give it 100% all the time, you can’t just coast. If Caine changed it to forty seconds, that’s hilarious, it means you only need to give a 66% effort.

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  184. @Anon
    Mr. Buffalo*,

    That was absolutely brilliant! I wish I could upvote it.

    But I've got another one:
    It is an ancient Mariner,
    And he stoppeth one of three.
    "By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
    Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?

    *In the style of Leonardo da Vinci, do your friends call you Giuseppe da Buffalo?

    Anon, you’re a funny guy, but my mother, now two weeks short of her 101st birthday, still calls me Peppe or Peppino . Should have thought of Giuseppe da Buffalo as my “pseudonymic handle.”

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    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    May God bless her and keep her.
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  185. Twinkie says:
    @Anonymous
    What do you like about it?

    Because it is very evocative and rings true. I have seen two thousand pounds of education drop to a ten-rupee jezail… though, in this case, the cheaper man was shortly thereafter pulverized by a JDAM.

    The poem is also cheerfully melancholic – it’s the superior man’s lot to risk his expensive life and limb in some obscure skirmish in a forsaken, faraway land somewhere… precisely because he IS the superior man.

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Because it is very evocative and rings true. I have seen two thousand pounds of education drop to a ten-rupee jezail
     
    During contact with the enemy, what % of the time have you had on-call air or artillery support within say, 30 minutes? Have you ever had to do without from beginning to end?
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  186. syonredux says:
    @Dmitry

    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
     
    No Lermontov.
    Just skillful, middle-level poetry for popular consumption.
    And the American replacement - unskillful, low-level poetry for political consumption.

    And the American replacement – unskillful, low-level poetry for political consumption.

    Black replacement, dear fellow. Be precise.

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  187. syonredux says:
    @Anon
    Who are the Gods of the Copybook headings?

    “Who are the Gods of the Copybook headings?”

    The “copybook headings” to which the title refers were proverbs or maxims, extolling age old wisdom – virtues such as honesty or fair dealing that were printed at the top of the pages of 19th-century British students’ special notebooks, called copybooks. The school-children had to write them by hand repeatedly down the page. However, the marketplaces were areas that dishonesty and immorality ruled. The Gods (or principles) of the marketplace represent selfishness, reckless progress, over-indulgence and a failure to learn from the past.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_of_the_Copybook_Headings

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  188. @tyrone
    Isn't it funny Angelou (walk like I got oil wells) spent her last years in a wheel chair,GOD has a sense of humor and always gets the last laugh.

    Don’t be petty, Sir.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Don’t be petty, Sir.

     

    Better to be Petty.

    https://media.golfdigest.com/photos/59d38e64d340d344f8fe33c6/master/w_768,c_limit/GettyImages-73998970.jpg
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  189. Cortes says:
    @Dmitry

    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
     
    No Lermontov.
    Just skillful, middle-level poetry for popular consumption.
    And the American replacement - unskillful, low-level poetry for political consumption.

    I had the misfortune * for a while to be a colleague on a research project of a Scottish guy who was the double of Lermontov: name of Learmonth also (cue the “Twilight Zone” music):

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Lermontov

    * he was a duplicitous ****

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    If Sailor is not angry about us going offtopic.

    Lermontov is also an amazing young prodigy (like Keats).

    At age 17 only, Lermontov writes this classic.

    To put it in English, I won't translate into myself, but copy from a translation of Nabokov - translation in English has lost some parts, but improved others. (Because it is rhyming in Russian - he has to change words so it rhymes in English),


    Angel

    An angel was crossing the pale vault of night,
    and his song was as soft as his flight,
    and the moon and the stars and the clouds in a throng
    stood enthralled by his holy song.

    He sang of the bliss of the innocent shades
    in the depths of celestial glades;
    he sang of the Sovereign Being, and free
    of guile was his eulogy.

    He carried a soul in his arms, a young life,
    to the world of sorrow and strife,
    and the young soul retained the throb of that song
    - without words, but vivid and strong.

    And tied to this planet long did it pine
    full of yearnings dimply divine,
    and our dull little ditties could never replace
    songs belonging to infinite space

     

    Some problems
    e.g.

    "to the world of sorrow and strife" (should be saying"to world of sorrow and tears")

    "- without words, but vivid and strong." (should be saying "remained without words, but alive")

    In the last paragraph also he changes over the order of sentences in translation.

    Still awesome in English. In the first and last sentence, Nabokov (non-literal translation) changes it a lot in English and it sounds cooler than the original.

    -

    -
    -

    As a song version - they are missing a few lines from the poem, but not terrible

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evq9ZRUkGD8

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  190. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    OT:Steve, you have to know about this kid. Coleman Hughes is a prodigy. I believe he is a sophomore at Columbia. Here's a taste:

    "No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income."

    I think he's a rapper and a jazz musician as well.

    https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black-american-culture-and-the-racial-wealth-gap/

    Thanks

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  191. Dai Alanye says: • Website

    Seems obvious, following the Manchester University anti-If event, that Queen Liz should appoint/declare/nominate/whatever-one-does-in-this-sort- of-circumstance Maya Angelou as Doggerelista Laureate.

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  192. If a picture paints a thousand words,
    Then why can’t I paint you?
    The words will never show the you I’ve come to know.
    If a face could launch a thousand ships,
    Then where am I to go?
    There’s no one home but you,
    You’re all that’s left me too.
    And when my love for life is running dry,
    You come and pour yourself on me.
    If a man could be two places at one time,
    I’d be with you.
    Tomorrow and today, beside you all the way.
    If the world should stop revolving spinning slowly down to die,
    I’d spend the end with you.
    And when the world was through,
    Then one by one the stars would all go out,
    Then you and I would simply fly away

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  193. @Nigerian Nationalist
    Don't be petty, Sir.

    Don’t be petty, Sir.

    Better to be Petty.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Don’t be petty, Sir.

    Better to be Petty.

     

    At least when it comes to girls......

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d0/df/92/d0df92ef2bfb76e7daff7241f5c9c4d1--pin-up-art-pinup.jpg

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  194. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    OT:Steve, you have to know about this kid. Coleman Hughes is a prodigy. I believe he is a sophomore at Columbia. Here's a taste:

    "No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income."

    I think he's a rapper and a jazz musician as well.

    https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black-american-culture-and-the-racial-wealth-gap/

    I think he’s a rapper and a jazz musician as well.

    That’s like being a portraitist and a graffiti tagger. A classical odist and a Borscht Belt comedian. A schoolteacher and a child molester. (Oh, wait…)

    Do any American diners have teppanyaki hash-slingers?

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  195. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    While we may lament this and other similar incidents, I'm not sure why we would be surprised. During the invasion - while the war is still being fought - the invaders don't generally pay homage to the great historical figures of the native population. They tear them down, both to encourage their own troops and to discourage their opponents.

    It's only after the war is over and the native people enslaved or brought to heel that the invader can examine the native's culture and appreciate its accomplishments.

    Granted, I'm sure that there are some exceptions - the Romans and Greeks come to mind or the German tribes overrunning the Roman Empire - but, in general, you shouldn't expect invading tribes to stand in reverance before your great historical figures, certainly not while the war is still being waged.

    Granted, I’m sure that there are some exceptions – the Romans and Greeks come to mind…

    They certainly came to Miss Angelou’s mind:

    So say the Asian, the Hispanic, the Jew
    The African and Native American, the Sioux,
    The Catholic, the Muslim, the French, the Greek
    The Irish, the Rabbi, the Priest, the Sheikh…

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  196. Escher says:

    Does my sassiness upset you?
    Why are you beset with gloom?
    ’Cause I walk like I’ve got oil wells
    Pumping in my living room.

    Does my sexiness upset you?
    Does it come as a surprise
    That I dance like I’ve got diamonds
    At the meeting of my thighs?

    Yuck!
    Being “woke” seems to inversely correlate with all standard metrics of learning and taste, but maybe that is the idea.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Escher comment 196,
    Next time, provide a trigger warning, LOL! One consolation is reading that Angelou word vomit on an empty stomach.
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  197. JMcG says:
    @John Achterhof
    Great poem. It seems to be the wisdom of someone late in life who has seen a lot, but I see that Kipling was just 45 when he wrote it.

    He lost his son in the First World War a few years after composing this. I believe he also wrote the epitaph inscribed on the grave markers for unidentified British dead- “A Soldier of the Great War, Known Unto God”

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  198. TheBoom says:

    The saddest part of this newest jihad against a dead white man is the comment section of the Telegraph article. Many commenters believe that the Khan woman who is the student leader will be in for a rude awakening when she has to go out into the real world. Well, in reality, she has just made her career by declaring a famous dead white man racist and supplanting his poem with one by a black woman. The doors will be wide open for Khan in academia, corporations, the BBC, the Guardian, governmental bodies, and NGOs. Sad to see that so many people in the UK don’t realize that they have lost and the invaders and the elite that hate the populace have won. The citizenry cannot fight to take back their country until they acknowledge they have lost it

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  199. Dmitry says:
    @Cortes
    I had the misfortune * for a while to be a colleague on a research project of a Scottish guy who was the double of Lermontov: name of Learmonth also (cue the “Twilight Zone” music):

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Lermontov

    * he was a duplicitous ****

    If Sailor is not angry about us going offtopic.

    Lermontov is also an amazing young prodigy (like Keats).

    At age 17 only, Lermontov writes this classic.

    To put it in English, I won’t translate into myself, but copy from a translation of Nabokov – translation in English has lost some parts, but improved others. (Because it is rhyming in Russian – he has to change words so it rhymes in English),

    Angel

    An angel was crossing the pale vault of night,
    and his song was as soft as his flight,
    and the moon and the stars and the clouds in a throng
    stood enthralled by his holy song.

    He sang of the bliss of the innocent shades
    in the depths of celestial glades;
    he sang of the Sovereign Being, and free
    of guile was his eulogy.

    He carried a soul in his arms, a young life,
    to the world of sorrow and strife,
    and the young soul retained the throb of that song
    - without words, but vivid and strong.

    And tied to this planet long did it pine
    full of yearnings dimply divine,
    and our dull little ditties could never replace
    songs belonging to infinite space

    Some problems
    e.g.

    “to the world of sorrow and strife” (should be saying”to world of sorrow and tears”)

    “- without words, but vivid and strong.” (should be saying “remained without words, but alive”)

    In the last paragraph also he changes over the order of sentences in translation.

    Still awesome in English. In the first and last sentence, Nabokov (non-literal translation) changes it a lot in English and it sounds cooler than the original.

    -

    -
    -

    As a song version – they are missing a few lines from the poem, but not terrible

    Read More
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  200. @Buffalo Joe
    Anon, you're a funny guy, but my mother, now two weeks short of her 101st birthday, still calls me Peppe or Peppino . Should have thought of Giuseppe da Buffalo as my "pseudonymic handle."

    May God bless her and keep her.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Seconded.

    And congratulations as well on her 101st birthday.
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  201. foulkes says:

    Loony liberals and SJWs have renewed the White Man’s Burden.

    They don’t want the power of the white man’s responsibility . They assume the power of the white man’s supposed guilt

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  202. Mr. Anon says:

    Maya Angelou was less than a mediocrity. One of the (many) things that, in a just world, Bill Clinton would have to answer for, is making this no-talent scribbler of dross a household name.

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  203. Wilkey says:
    @Horace Stapleton
    I don't know why any self-respecting white person would go and see the movie black panther. I don't know what race you are but if you're white I would imagine there's better things to do with your money.

    Well I didn’t exactly go anywhere to see it. I sure as hell wouldnt have spent money to see it in a movie theatre. We watched it on Netflix or something. I knew it would be utter crap, but occasionally you have to watch utter crap in order to have an informed opinion on the Genre of Utter Crap. I figured I could up my credibility twice as fast by watching a movie with a mostly black cast.

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  204. It’s also quoted in grrrl-bible Harriet the Spy. Harriet, like Bridget Jones, finds it inspirational.

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  205. Anonym says:
    @Anonym
    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    The empire was already in decline by that point, and had already started to go soft. Even by the mid 1800s I think. In 1807 the slave trade was abolished for example. Gandhi was having success with civil disobedience in South Africa in the 1890s. Convict transportation ended in 1868 in Australia. It began in the 1610s to the Americas.

    Another barometer of the softening of the British Empire – the death penalty.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_Kingdom

    Reform can be traced to 1808. And in the USA with the Declaration of Independence a couple decades earlier. Which goes to my point that the decadence and softening of people begins much earlier than apparent peaks of empire.

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  206. @roo_ster
    Kipling, though not a military man, captures much of the military existence.

    Particularly in Barrack Room Ballads “Tommy” and “Widow at Windsor.”

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  207. @Almost Missouri
    A persistent fact about the SJW activists is that they seem entirely unfamiliar with what they denounce. Has any one of them actually read Kipling? If so, they would know that the "White Man's Burden" is [spoiler alert] not a desirable thing. It is kind of an anti-privilege, to use the Current Year terminology. To continue The Current Year-isms, it's an invisible knapsack, but in a bad way. Indeed, in a certain light, the poem could be a blueprint for the SJW movement:

    Go bind your sons to exile
    To serve your captives' need;
    ...
    To seek another's profit,
    And work another's gain.
    ...
    Take up the White Man's burden —
    No tawdry rule of kings,
    But toil of serf and sweeper —
    The tale of common things.
    The ports ye shall not enter,
    The roads ye shall not tread,
    Go make them with your living,
    And mark them with your dead.
    ...
    And reap his old reward:
    ...
    The hate of those ye guard —
    ...
    Take up the White Man's burden —
    Ye dare not stoop to less —
    Nor call too loud on Freedom
    To cloak your weariness;
    By all ye cry or whisper,
    By all ye leave or do,
    The silent, sullen peoples
    Shall weigh your gods and you.
    ...
    Comes now, to search your manhood
    Through all the thankless years
    Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
    The judgment of your peers!
     
    I mean, Jaysus, can the guy be any more woke?

    No, they haven’t read it, and they haven’t taken the trouble to learn anything about the author, who, far from being a jingoistic Colonialist, was at best ambivalent about the Empire, given that he adored India and was miserably abused by caregivers in England. He was also bitterly critical of the way common soldiers were treated and of Victoria’s reclusiveness after Albert died. It was her job to bolster morale with public appearances, and one poem pretty much told Her Majesty, “Show yourself, Ma’am.”

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  208. @PiltdownMan
    Those student leaders don't know much, but they know the necessary minimum about Rudyard Kipling. He was a bad, bad, white man, who said bad words like "white man's burden", "Gunga Din" and "Mandalay."

    It is interesting to read an essay from The Atlantic, from 99 years ago, by a contemporary fan of Kipling. It appears that even back in 1919, Kipling was getting targeted as not quite politically correct.

    An excerpt


    There has been more than one reason, as I have said, for the waning of Kipling's popularity...there are...causes more insidious and more potent. He stands, not only politically for the highest type of Toryism,—at least, one fancies he does,—but for a lot of other outdated things: pious attachment to the soil; romantic love, enduring, clean outside and in; the beauty of childhood and the bitterer beauty of parenthood; patriotism unshrinking; and unashamed; loathing of the mob and the mob's madness and meanness; the continuity of the English political tradition, from Magna Charta down; religious toleration; scrupulous perception of differences between race and race, type and type; the White Man's Burden. And I doubt if, even now, he is an ardent believer in Woman Suffrage.

    Almost any one of these attitudes would have been enough to damn him with the British democracy. ... One even realizes—though this time with amusement—why he is persona non grata to 'the brittle intellectuals that crack beneath the strain.' The intellectuals say that he is good at times for children, and often for the vulgar, and take their refuge in not taking him seriously.
     

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/01/the-remarkable-rightness-of-rudyard-kipling/306597/

    He stands, not only politically for the highest type of Toryism,—at least, one fancies he does,

    And therein lies the problem, for the people who fancy so, haven’t actually read him.

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  209. syonredux says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Don’t be petty, Sir.

     

    Better to be Petty.

    https://media.golfdigest.com/photos/59d38e64d340d344f8fe33c6/master/w_768,c_limit/GettyImages-73998970.jpg

    Don’t be petty, Sir.

    Better to be Petty.

    At least when it comes to girls……

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.

    "Too narrow in the hips"--Nero in Quo Vadis?

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  210. @Anonymous
    What do you like about it?

    What do you like about it?

    It’s a stoic reflection on one of the ways men compete for glory. Some climb mountains. Some fight wars. The difference between climbing mountains and fighting armed men is that mountains aren’t actively trying to kill you, and they’re certainly not creative about it. That’s why there are many sagas recounting military exploits and very few about mountain-climbing.

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  211. @Buffalo Joe
    Yojimbo, Hmmm, "Maltese Falcon" and "Treasure of the Sierra Madres" are both great films, but are you saying they are only good because of Bogart?

    Does appear to be the obvious point. The other being, that the Maltese Falcon at times gets more of an elite mention by the film school/film historians because it was John Huston’s debut directing film. The question at times does come up: which film made Bogart a leading man Alister in his own right? The case can be made for either film. Most of the time, however, the Maltese Falcon is given the nod, even though both films were made in the same year.

    If anything, Raoul Walsh has often gotten thrown by the wayside among established elite opinion of film historians. Perhaps because he didn’t win an Oscar, which Huston did (Treasure of the Sierra Madre), which of course starred Bogart. Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film. In other words, its unlikely that Huston could’ve directed a film such as Goodfellas or even the Godfather series, whereas Walsh could easily have directed such films and made them classics. Walsh did direct one of the earliest gangster films in the 1910′s and was an established Alist director before either Huston or John Ford.

    High Sierra, however, (and Casablanca and later the Caine Mutiny) does help to demonstrate that Bogart didn’t need Huston to make him a lasting great star (as he delivered indelible performances in these films), whereas Huston needed to rely more on Bogart for his great films. Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston’s non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.

    In the final analysis, Bogart proved his range as an actor no matter the director, whereas the jury is still out with John Huston being considered one of the greatest ever directors of classic Hollywood, especially when Bogart is not in the film.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston’s non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.
     
    The Man Who Would Be King ......And Fat City is an overlooked gem.....
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Yo, Thank you for the great reply.
    , @syonredux

    . Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film.
     
    Walsh was certainly a master of the gangster film (The Roaring Twenties, White Heat), but I'm less confident about his stature as a director of Westerns. I just can't quite rank his films in the genre alongside the work of Anthony Mann, Budd Boetticher . Howard Hawks, John Ford....
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  212. @SunBakedSuburb
    Film noir really started in the late 1940s with those beautiful, shadowy black and white films depicting soldiers fresh from the killing fields of Europe and the Pacific islands getting into stateside trouble with get-rich-quick schemes and shady dames.

    Houston's The Maltese Falcon (1941), while a great crime film, is not typically noir. The film's greatness lies in its ability to be engaging despite the fact that it is really a collection of scenes with guys sitting around in rooms talking. Chalk it up to the script, acting talent involved, and Houston's finesse with the camera.

    Houston went on to make The Kremlin Letter (1970), an under-appreciated espionage thriller.

    Not exactly so much Huston’s finesse with the camera but also a practical element. Most of the main actors were 5’6″ and under. At times the camera angles appear to have been shot with the lense literally on the ground looking upward, and most likely for that practical reason. Two reasons why Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet were in a few films with Bogart. Both were at times contracted to Warners. The other reason, namely, that both men were shorter than Bogart, who wasn’t a very tall man.

    There’s a reason why Ward Bond doesn’t stand directly next to Bogart until the final scene (or at least the camera angles don’t focus on that aspect until the end).

    And Ward Bond was one of the greatest supporting actors in all of the classic Hollywood era, perhaps of the entire 20th century.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Not exactly so much Huston’s finesse with the camera but also a practical element.
     
    Finesse makes the practical look graceful....

    Two reasons why Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet were in a few films with Bogart. Both were at times contracted to Warners. The other reason, namely, that both men were shorter than Bogart, who wasn’t a very tall man.

     

    And the third reason: They worked so well together.....the alchemy of chemistry.....it can't be duplicated....

    And Ward Bond was one of the greatest supporting actors in all of the classic Hollywood era, perhaps of the entire 20th century.
     
    I prefer Elisha Cook, jr.....such an odd presence.....
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  213. @syonredux

    Don’t be petty, Sir.

    Better to be Petty.

     

    At least when it comes to girls......

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d0/df/92/d0df92ef2bfb76e7daff7241f5c9c4d1--pin-up-art-pinup.jpg

    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.

    “Too narrow in the hips”–Nero in Quo Vadis?

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.
     
    The good old Petty girl......



    https://68.media.tumblr.com/d0f19b0028b508ea49aeb3c5bed05c57/tumblr_n4oy6i3XhE1qh583lo1_1280.jpg

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.
     
    Caviar to the general, dear fellow.....A true divinity is beyond the hoi polloi....


    https://68.media.tumblr.com/2652fe7643c03313cb9e5e7275868d6b/tumblr_oo4114vdAt1rdwepdo1_500.jpg
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Rather look like that than a K-dash. Naughtiness is always better implied.
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  214. @Twinkie
    Because it is very evocative and rings true. I have seen two thousand pounds of education drop to a ten-rupee jezail... though, in this case, the cheaper man was shortly thereafter pulverized by a JDAM.

    The poem is also cheerfully melancholic - it’s the superior man’s lot to risk his expensive life and limb in some obscure skirmish in a forsaken, faraway land somewhere... precisely because he IS the superior man.

    Because it is very evocative and rings true. I have seen two thousand pounds of education drop to a ten-rupee jezail

    During contact with the enemy, what % of the time have you had on-call air or artillery support within say, 30 minutes? Have you ever had to do without from beginning to end?

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  215. jim jones says:
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  216. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rob McX
    I have to agree about "If" - not that the sentiments are unworthy or anything, but it looks more like prose to me.

    I have to agree about “If” – not that the sentiments are unworthy or anything, but it looks more like prose to me.

    I think you could say that of most of Kipling’s verse. It’s often amusing and witty, often clever and even wise, but it’s not exactly poetry as such. And “If” is a poor example.

    On the other hand in the prose arena Kipling had some actual masterpieces to his credit. I think it’s reasonable to describe both Kim and The Man Who Would Be King as masterpieces. Quite a few of the short stories are excellent.

    Kipling’s contribution to science fiction is often overlooked. WITH THE NIGHT MAIL and AS EASY AS ABC are intriguing and important sci-fi short stories.

    He was a great writer. He just wasn’t a great poet. His verse can be great fun but it isn’t great poetry.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The first section of Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy" is based on Kipling's "Kim." Heinlein was a brilliant idea man and competent writer. Kipling, however, was a literary genius.
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  217. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AnotherDad

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.
     
    What's wrong with middlebrow?

    The truth is most of the "truths" people can and need to learn aren't exactly rocket science, they really are "middlebrow".

    Off the top of my head:
    -- treat other people like you want to be treated
    -- you are responsible for yourself--got a problem? look in the mirror
    -- clean up after yourself
    -- try hard
    -- build your brain, read, study, learn, educate yourself--keep learning all the time
    -- listen--you don't know it all
    -- not everyone is like you, not everyone agrees with you, and sometimes they are right
    -- learn from your mistakes; even better other people's mistakes
    -- be a good neighbor, but …
    -- don't be a doormat
    -- stand up for yourself, but …
    -- learn to keep your mouth shut when appropriate
    -- choose your battles
    -- be productive, do useful work, create, build
    -- try it yourself ... but ask for help if you really can't figure it out
    -- finish
    -- be true to your commitments
    -- work hard, but …
    -- life isn't just work--leave time for recreation, hobbies, friends and most of all family
    -- have fun, but ...
    -- real happiness is not the same as pleasure
    -- drink … in moderation
    -- eat … in moderation
    -- exercise
    -- real happiness--for most--will come from building a family
    -- people are different
    -- most people aren't like you, don't think like you
    -- you can't solve other people's problems, fix other people's lives
    -- if you are "saving the world" … you are making it worse
    -- "saving the world" won't make you happy
    -- to really "save the world", be productive, take care of your family, neighborhood and nation
    -- stay out of other peoples' business
    -- keep foreigners from invading and settling your nation**

    ... and yet many people just won't "get" this middlebrow wisdom.

    (**Yes Lot, i'm looking at you here.)

    What’s wrong with middlebrow?

    There’s nothing wrong with middlebrow. Kipling at his best is still middlebrow, but very very high grade middlebrow. He’s one of the few worthy winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature.

    The problem with “If” is not that it’s middlebrow. The problem is that it’s a bad poem by a very good writer.

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  218. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Pat Boyle
    Steve is probably right about John Huston inventing film noir. To gain an insight watch the Huston-Bogart version of 'The Maltese Falcon'. Then watch the decade earlier version with Riccardo Cortez as Sam Spade.

    Steve is probably right about John Huston inventing film noir. To gain an insight watch the Huston-Bogart version of ‘The Maltese Falcon’.

    The Maltese Falcon is a very great movie. But to a purist it’s not film noir. Which doesn’t matter. In 1941 no-one knew film noir existed. Huston just made a crime movie which turned out to be a great movie.

    I’d rate The Man Who Would Be King as Huston’s other great movie. Aside from that he made some interesting failures.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    By the way, note that i chose the ambiguous category of perhaps Hollywood's most memorable personality to describe Huston: a director of classic movies, a rogue, a storyteller, who was also an unforgettable character actor (e.g., Chinatown). And the main figure in quite a dynastu from his father Walter Huston to his daughter Angelica who stole more than a few movies and, 85 years after Walter's prime, his son Danny is getting big roles in movies like Wonder Woman.
    , @syonredux

    The Maltese Falcon is a very great movie. But to a purist it’s not film noir. Which doesn’t matter. In 1941 no-one knew film noir existed. Huston just made a crime movie which turned out to be a great movie.



    I’d rate The Man Who Would Be King as Huston’s other great movie. Aside from that he made some interesting failures.
     
    Dunno. I can think of quite a few other successes in Huston's filmography: Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The Asphalt Jungle, Key Largo, Fat City........
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  219. dfordoom says: • Website
    @SunBakedSuburb
    Film noir really started in the late 1940s with those beautiful, shadowy black and white films depicting soldiers fresh from the killing fields of Europe and the Pacific islands getting into stateside trouble with get-rich-quick schemes and shady dames.

    Houston's The Maltese Falcon (1941), while a great crime film, is not typically noir. The film's greatness lies in its ability to be engaging despite the fact that it is really a collection of scenes with guys sitting around in rooms talking. Chalk it up to the script, acting talent involved, and Houston's finesse with the camera.

    Houston went on to make The Kremlin Letter (1970), an under-appreciated espionage thriller.

    Film noir really started in the late 1940s with those beautiful, shadowy black and white films depicting soldiers fresh from the killing fields of Europe and the Pacific islands getting into stateside trouble with get-rich-quick schemes and shady dames.

    Double Indemnity (1944) is probably the first full-blown American film noir. Also Fritz Lang’s 1944 The Woman in the Window (depending on how you feel about the ending).

    You need a doomed hero but it has to be at least partly his own fault. You need a femme fatale. You need an atmosphere of moral corruption. You need the noir visual style. The Maltese Falcon has some noirish elements but it’s not real noir. My theory is that John Huston could never have made a genuine film noir. He just wasn’t misanthropic or despairing enough. Billy Wilder on the other hand had more than enough misanthropy to pull it off. Fritz Lang’s noirs were Catholic noirs, which is another story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Murder, My Sweet (1944) with Dick Powell as Phillip Marlowe can also be said to be a solid noir. It was Powell, and not Bogart, by the way, whom Raymond Chandler considered to be the definitive actor to play his private eye on screen. A bit surprised that Powell wasn't considered for an Oscar for the role. Of course, had the film been made at MGM and not at lower level studio RKO, perhaps he would've been.

    Robert Mitchum offered a reason as to why smaller studios made more noirs than the majors. At the lower/middling studios they could only afford to make so many A pictures and generally that meant that stars such as Cary Grant would get the best lighting, which meant that the studios other pictures had to be made on constrained budget (and lesser quality lighting) and hence the noir was born.

    Mitchum starred in the 1947 film noir Out of the Past with Kirk Douglas (still alive, by the way, at 101).
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  220. m___ says:

    “… —You’ll be a Man, my son!”

    The equivalent of a Toots Tielemans on his harmonica in jazz, or Miles Davis in his inspired moments on the trumpet. To condense deep meaning into a few lines of format as is the case is true genial output.

    It should not matter much whether the many are held up as a reference to his definite genius. What’s more, he can reproduce similar sparks almost at will, the hallmarks of genius the man. It is all in the eyes of the beholder, or it speaks as to the talents of the receiver. Our guess, “democratically” weighting, most would agree to erase or keep the display for shallow reasons with no understanding of a quality argument anyhow.

    Our history in the West is so abundant in great output, for it was the arts and sciences catering to a true cognitive elite that was able to finance their fancies. That is probably why today it is all about “rap” or “crap” and likewise. Great times for superficial overload, shallow thinking, capital without cognitive easing.

    Our elites of lore, and today’s sell outs, are as different as head to tail.

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  221. @dfordoom

    Steve is probably right about John Huston inventing film noir. To gain an insight watch the Huston-Bogart version of ‘The Maltese Falcon’.
     
    The Maltese Falcon is a very great movie. But to a purist it's not film noir. Which doesn't matter. In 1941 no-one knew film noir existed. Huston just made a crime movie which turned out to be a great movie.

    I'd rate The Man Who Would Be King as Huston's other great movie. Aside from that he made some interesting failures.

    By the way, note that i chose the ambiguous category of perhaps Hollywood’s most memorable personality to describe Huston: a director of classic movies, a rogue, a storyteller, who was also an unforgettable character actor (e.g., Chinatown). And the main figure in quite a dynastu from his father Walter Huston to his daughter Angelica who stole more than a few movies and, 85 years after Walter’s prime, his son Danny is getting big roles in movies like Wonder Woman.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    By the way, note that i chose the ambiguous category of perhaps Hollywood’s most memorable personality to describe Huston
     
    Yep, he was certainly larger-than-life. And I have a soft spot for directors who make interesting failures. They're often preferable to uninteresting conventional successes. MOBY DICK and BEAT THE DEVIL are interesting Huston failures.
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  222. @dfordoom

    I have to agree about “If” – not that the sentiments are unworthy or anything, but it looks more like prose to me.
     
    I think you could say that of most of Kipling's verse. It's often amusing and witty, often clever and even wise, but it's not exactly poetry as such. And "If" is a poor example.

    On the other hand in the prose arena Kipling had some actual masterpieces to his credit. I think it's reasonable to describe both Kim and The Man Who Would Be King as masterpieces. Quite a few of the short stories are excellent.

    Kipling's contribution to science fiction is often overlooked. WITH THE NIGHT MAIL and AS EASY AS ABC are intriguing and important sci-fi short stories.

    He was a great writer. He just wasn't a great poet. His verse can be great fun but it isn't great poetry.

    The first section of Heinlein’s “Citizen of the Galaxy” is based on Kipling’s “Kim.” Heinlein was a brilliant idea man and competent writer. Kipling, however, was a literary genius.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Wonder how much of Kipling's Just So Stories owe an amount of ordinary speculation from having read Darwin's On the Origin of the Species.
    , @syonredux

    The first section of Heinlein’s “Citizen of the Galaxy” is based on Kipling’s “Kim.” Heinlein was a brilliant idea man and competent writer. Kipling, however, was a literary genius.
     
    The Twain-Kipling-Heinlein sequence: Huckleberry Finn influenced Kim which influenced Citizen of the Galaxy.....
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  223. @dfordoom

    Film noir really started in the late 1940s with those beautiful, shadowy black and white films depicting soldiers fresh from the killing fields of Europe and the Pacific islands getting into stateside trouble with get-rich-quick schemes and shady dames.
     
    Double Indemnity (1944) is probably the first full-blown American film noir. Also Fritz Lang's 1944 The Woman in the Window (depending on how you feel about the ending).

    You need a doomed hero but it has to be at least partly his own fault. You need a femme fatale. You need an atmosphere of moral corruption. You need the noir visual style. The Maltese Falcon has some noirish elements but it's not real noir. My theory is that John Huston could never have made a genuine film noir. He just wasn't misanthropic or despairing enough. Billy Wilder on the other hand had more than enough misanthropy to pull it off. Fritz Lang's noirs were Catholic noirs, which is another story.

    Murder, My Sweet (1944) with Dick Powell as Phillip Marlowe can also be said to be a solid noir. It was Powell, and not Bogart, by the way, whom Raymond Chandler considered to be the definitive actor to play his private eye on screen. A bit surprised that Powell wasn’t considered for an Oscar for the role. Of course, had the film been made at MGM and not at lower level studio RKO, perhaps he would’ve been.

    Robert Mitchum offered a reason as to why smaller studios made more noirs than the majors. At the lower/middling studios they could only afford to make so many A pictures and generally that meant that stars such as Cary Grant would get the best lighting, which meant that the studios other pictures had to be made on constrained budget (and lesser quality lighting) and hence the noir was born.

    Mitchum starred in the 1947 film noir Out of the Past with Kirk Douglas (still alive, by the way, at 101).

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Murder, My Sweet (1944) with Dick Powell as Phillip Marlowe can also be said to be a solid noir. It was Powell, and not Bogart, by the way, whom Raymond Chandler considered to be the definitive actor to play his private eye on screen. A bit surprised that Powell wasn’t considered for an Oscar for the role. Of course, had the film been made at MGM and not at lower level studio RKO, perhaps he would’ve been.
     
    Bit of an overlooked film. One thing that sets Powell's Chandler apart is that he brings less baggage with him. Bogart was wonderful as Marlowe*, but one is always aware that one is watching Bogart....


    RE: Mitchum,

    It's a great misfortune that we never got to see him play Marlowe in his prime....


    *Love this scene:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNhPdJFZcQ
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  224. @Steve Sailer
    The first section of Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy" is based on Kipling's "Kim." Heinlein was a brilliant idea man and competent writer. Kipling, however, was a literary genius.

    Wonder how much of Kipling’s Just So Stories owe an amount of ordinary speculation from having read Darwin’s On the Origin of the Species.

    Read More
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  225. vinteuil says:
    @AnotherDad

    The problem with “If” is that it’s hokey and middlebrow. Same for the poem they wrote over it. I’d say it is the worst of the top 20 most famous English poems.
     
    What's wrong with middlebrow?

    The truth is most of the "truths" people can and need to learn aren't exactly rocket science, they really are "middlebrow".

    Off the top of my head:
    -- treat other people like you want to be treated
    -- you are responsible for yourself--got a problem? look in the mirror
    -- clean up after yourself
    -- try hard
    -- build your brain, read, study, learn, educate yourself--keep learning all the time
    -- listen--you don't know it all
    -- not everyone is like you, not everyone agrees with you, and sometimes they are right
    -- learn from your mistakes; even better other people's mistakes
    -- be a good neighbor, but …
    -- don't be a doormat
    -- stand up for yourself, but …
    -- learn to keep your mouth shut when appropriate
    -- choose your battles
    -- be productive, do useful work, create, build
    -- try it yourself ... but ask for help if you really can't figure it out
    -- finish
    -- be true to your commitments
    -- work hard, but …
    -- life isn't just work--leave time for recreation, hobbies, friends and most of all family
    -- have fun, but ...
    -- real happiness is not the same as pleasure
    -- drink … in moderation
    -- eat … in moderation
    -- exercise
    -- real happiness--for most--will come from building a family
    -- people are different
    -- most people aren't like you, don't think like you
    -- you can't solve other people's problems, fix other people's lives
    -- if you are "saving the world" … you are making it worse
    -- "saving the world" won't make you happy
    -- to really "save the world", be productive, take care of your family, neighborhood and nation
    -- stay out of other peoples' business
    -- keep foreigners from invading and settling your nation**

    ... and yet many people just won't "get" this middlebrow wisdom.

    (**Yes Lot, i'm looking at you here.)

    What’s wrong with middlebrow?

    Good question. To which the answer is: nothing.

    Middlebrow: Vermeer. Highbrow: Basquiat.

    Middlebrow: 1 Henry IV. Highbrow: Angels in America.

    Middlebrow: Vaughan Williams’ *Pastoral Symphony* . Highbrow: Berio’s *Sinfonia*.

    …and so on and so forth.

    So, at least, my highbrow acquaintances inform me.

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  226. sb says:

    Surprised no one has said that Kipling was the Jordan Peterson of his day

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  227. vinteuil says:
    @SunBakedSuburb
    John Houston's The Man Who Would Be King (1975), with its pairing of Sean Connery and Michael Caine, is magnificent. I've watched it several times.

    Not so magnificent: "... god knows black and brown voices have been written out of history enough ..."

    The above statement would be true had it been uttered thirty years ago. Now we are drowning in a cesspit of brown and particularly black cultural products.

    Dude, thirty years ago was 1988. The emphasis on “black and brown voices” far beyond their merits was already in full swing.

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  228. vinteuil says:
    @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    Why does Sir Michael Caine, a trained actor, misread the script?

    Kipling wrote, "don't look too good, nor talk too wise";
    Caine says, "don't look too good, nor look too wise".

    Kipling wrote, "fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run";
    Caine recalibrates this minute to, unaccountably, "forty seconds".

    And this recitation is not from memory; he is reading the poem from a book.

    Why does Sir Michael Caine, a trained actor, misread the script?

    He’s old?

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  229. @Twinkie
    Well, this “yellow” man admires his work. His “Arithmetic on the Frontier” is one of my favorite poems:

    A great and glorious thing it is
    To learn, for seven years or so,
    The Lord knows what of that and this,
    Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
    The flying bullet down the Pass,
    That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

    Three hundred pounds per annum spent
    On making brain and body meeter
    For all the murderous intent
    Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
    And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
    What comes of all our 'ologies.

    A scrimmage in a Border Station-
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
    The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
    Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

    No proposition Euclid wrote
    No formulae the text-books know,
    Will turn the bullet from your coat,
    Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
    Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
    The odds are on the cheaper man.

    One sword-knot stolen from the camp
    Will pay for all the school expenses
    Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
    Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
    But, being blessed with perfect sight,
    Picks off our messmates left and right.

    With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
    The troopships bring us one by one,
    At vast expense of time and steam,
    To slay Afridis where they run.
    The "captives of our bow and spear"
    Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

    Ask the Yusufzaies

    Thanks, but I’d rather not hear the sound of Malala’s voice any more.

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  230. vinteuil says:
    @Anon

    Kipling wrote, “fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run”;
     
    What does this even mean?

    What does this even mean?

    Something pretty close to this:

    O gentlemen, the time of life is short;
    To spend that shortness basely were too long
    If life did ride upon a dial’s point,
    Still ending at the arrival of an hour.

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  231. vinteuil says:
    @Dmitry

    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
     
    No Lermontov.
    Just skillful, middle-level poetry for popular consumption.
    And the American replacement - unskillful, low-level poetry for political consumption.

    Dmitry, even the best Russian poetry in the best translations comes across as pretty crappy stuff in English.

    No matter how long I live, or how hard I try, I’ll never really *get* Pushkin.

    But, hey, maybe you’re a multilingual genius who *gets* Kipling in the original English.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Pushkin's economy of words makes him quite literally impossible to translate. He could put in two lines what normal people need half a page to express. His best poetry is breathtaking in its beauty and depth.
    , @Dmitry
    I'm sure Kipling is probably a very good writer - I would like to read his book "Kim", one day.

    But this poem of is banal and uninteresting (although it surely completes its mission, which is skillfully describing a kind of perfect attitude desired of English military officers).

    Poetry is not just the quality of the language, but also its images and ideas (which even badly translated, becomes interesting in different languages).

    17 year old poetry of Lermontov (I post Nabokov translation above) is not special just because of its language (in some areas it sounds cooler in the English), but because of metaphysical creepiness of the imagery, perfect matching of the language with the imagery, and that this nursery rhyme which also describes his own talent and is a prophecy of the life-trajectory of Lermontov (the poem implies his fate and why he will not spend much time on this planet, where the songs are less interesting than the world he came from).

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  232. vinteuil says:
    @tomv
    Ah, the good ol' "middlebrow" insult. You can use it against anything popular, and poseurs of all stripes do so with relish.

    Tom Wolfe is middlebrow. Carl Sagan is middlebrow. Vivaldi is middlebrow.

    If Shakespeare were still packing houses today, he, too, would be middlebrow.

    The Fringe's contempt for the Core is nothing new, but then you went ahead and put Maya Angelou's dross in the same category as Kipling's If.

    Then it's no longer Fringe vs Core, but Lunacy vs Sanity.

    Ah, the good ol’ “middlebrow” insult. You can use it against anything popular, and poseurs of all stripes do so with relish.

    Exactly. When people dismiss something as “middlebrow,” they’re not engaged in aesthetic judgment. They’re engaged in status signalling.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Relevant:
    https://www.youtube.com/embed/EmVI7pf0MwE?start=1288&end=1296&autoplay=1
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  233. vinteuil says:
    @JerseyJeffersonian
    Fill the time that you have with accomplishments; time only runs one way, and you will never get wasted time back to remediate your sloth.

    Fill the time that you have with accomplishments; time only runs one way, and you will never get wasted time back to remediate your sloth.

    Just so.

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  234. Yak-15 says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Off to Ellis Island to scrub Emma Lazarus' poem and replace it with some rap lyrics. That should blow their minds.

    That would cause amazing acts of confusion amongst the left.

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  235. Da Wei says:
    @JerseyJeffersonian
    Fill the time that you have with accomplishments; time only runs one way, and you will never get wasted time back to remediate your sloth.

    Well stated. Thank you.

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  236. Da Wei says:

    I greatly admire “If” as a tribute to gumption, the forgotten virtue. Here’s my story. Back when my grandson was about eleven I offered him a hundred bucks if he’d learn “If” and stand up straight and recite it flawlessly. I kept my money. He’s a fine lad, still.

    Another time, I made the same offer (with a week’s time limit) to a group of boys and girls in China. One girl was puzzled about the last line, so I suggested she recite it as, “and what’s more you’ll be a woman, my daughter.” I told her Kipling would like that. A week later the girl cut the mustard and took the yard. (It was a Chinese 100, about 14 bucks.) Her recitation was impeccable. She was nine years old and spoke Mandarin and Cantonese (mother’s tongue), German (father’s tongue) and English. Like others, her brilliance was her gumption and effort (what “If” is about) more than IQ. It’s surprising what you can do if you don’t know you can’t.

    I’ve seen young people become very interested in this poem and the stories behind it, in the friendship of Kipling and Jamison, the story behind his name and the fiasco of the raid. It leads right on to the Boer Wars and the stalwart scouts on both sides, Dany Theron, then Duquesne and Burnham. Young people get enthralled in these stories, but only if their minds haven’t been polluted by PC correctness and “Black Panther” fantasies. Needless to say, these young people have not been in the States. They’ve been in Asia.

    The subject of Steve Sailer’s enlightening account of the university elites so disgusts me that I had to tell this true story. The girl is much older now and going great guns.

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  237. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @vinteuil
    Dmitry, even the best Russian poetry in the best translations comes across as pretty crappy stuff in English.

    No matter how long I live, or how hard I try, I'll never really *get* Pushkin.

    But, hey, maybe you're a multilingual genius who *gets* Kipling in the original English.

    Pushkin’s economy of words makes him quite literally impossible to translate. He could put in two lines what normal people need half a page to express. His best poetry is breathtaking in its beauty and depth.

    Read More
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  238. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @vinteuil

    Ah, the good ol’ “middlebrow” insult. You can use it against anything popular, and poseurs of all stripes do so with relish.
     
    Exactly. When people dismiss something as "middlebrow," they're not engaged in aesthetic judgment. They're engaged in status signalling.
    Read More
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  239. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    By the way, note that i chose the ambiguous category of perhaps Hollywood's most memorable personality to describe Huston: a director of classic movies, a rogue, a storyteller, who was also an unforgettable character actor (e.g., Chinatown). And the main figure in quite a dynastu from his father Walter Huston to his daughter Angelica who stole more than a few movies and, 85 years after Walter's prime, his son Danny is getting big roles in movies like Wonder Woman.

    By the way, note that i chose the ambiguous category of perhaps Hollywood’s most memorable personality to describe Huston

    Yep, he was certainly larger-than-life. And I have a soft spot for directors who make interesting failures. They’re often preferable to uninteresting conventional successes. MOBY DICK and BEAT THE DEVIL are interesting Huston failures.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Yep, he was certainly larger-than-life. And I have a soft spot for directors who make interesting failures. They’re often preferable to uninteresting conventional successes. MOBY DICK and BEAT THE DEVIL are interesting Huston failures.
     
    I always liked Orson Welles as Father Mapple in Moby-Dick




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mog0W6Jwj0Q
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  240. anonymous[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Soccer-punched.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1019987090954649602

    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/1020001606794956800

    Anon(328) wrote:
    “Woman punched in the face, boyfriend viciously beaten by group of Algerian men on night of World Cup win.

    Their crime?

    They said “Vive la France!”

    The wonders of multi-culturalism never cease.”

    I propose the following:

    The [French] politicians are writing checks that their electorate can’t cash.

    Read More
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  241. anonymous[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @Escher

    Does my sassiness upset you?
    Why are you beset with gloom?
    ’Cause I walk like I’ve got oil wells
    Pumping in my living room.

    Does my sexiness upset you?
    Does it come as a surprise
    That I dance like I’ve got diamonds
    At the meeting of my thighs?

     

    Yuck!
    Being "woke" seems to inversely correlate with all standard metrics of learning and taste, but maybe that is the idea.

    Escher comment 196,
    Next time, provide a trigger warning, LOL! One consolation is reading that Angelou word vomit on an empty stomach.

    Read More
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  242. Heros says:
    @Anonymous Bosch
    Nothing new here. As Orwell observed back in the 1940s, "during five literary generations every enlightened person has despised [Kipling], and at the end of that time nine-tenths of those enlightened persons are forgotten and Kipling is in some sense still there." (http://www.orwell.ru/library/reviews/kipling/english/e_rkip ) I'm willing to wager that Kipling will outlast this generation of goons as well.

    Incidentally, Orwell's analysis of why the "enlightened" classes hated Kipling is still quite interesting. One crucial reason, Orwell argues, is that Kipling "sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them", and he sides with the practical men who does the guarding and the feeding. Basically, the enlightened hated him for pointing out that they "mock the uniforms that guard you while you sleep".

    As for "If" in particular, I like the poem as long as I manage to forget that the poem was a tribute to Leander Starr Jameson, the bumbling leader of the botched raid against the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek back in 1895 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid ). My ancestors easily whipped him and his mercenaries, and did not hold him in particularly high regard as a soldier. Contrary to the poem, he did not keep his head and could not wait. Somehow the British press managed to make a defeat look like a victory, and turned Leander into a lion. In fairness, he seems to have been a good medical man. His patients included Paul Kruger and Lobengula, and all spoke highly of him in that regard.

    Isn’t amusing how they call this jew coup attempt a “raid”?

    Jameson was a high level mason as were Rhodes, Milner and Kipling. IIRC, Churchill too, whose father had extensive partnerships with the Rothschilds family in South Africa.

    Churchill’s fake war heroism was hyped to get him into political power in exactly the manner that John Kerry’s swift boat propaganda was later. Kerry of course is famously in Skull and Bones.

    Tim and Joe take a trip down the South Africa/Masonic rabbit hole:

    https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/tkelly6785757/episodes/2018-07-14T04_21_57-07_00

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  243. syonredux says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The first section of Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy" is based on Kipling's "Kim." Heinlein was a brilliant idea man and competent writer. Kipling, however, was a literary genius.

    The first section of Heinlein’s “Citizen of the Galaxy” is based on Kipling’s “Kim.” Heinlein was a brilliant idea man and competent writer. Kipling, however, was a literary genius.

    The Twain-Kipling-Heinlein sequence: Huckleberry Finn influenced Kim which influenced Citizen of the Galaxy…..

    Read More
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  244. syonredux says:
    @dfordoom

    Steve is probably right about John Huston inventing film noir. To gain an insight watch the Huston-Bogart version of ‘The Maltese Falcon’.
     
    The Maltese Falcon is a very great movie. But to a purist it's not film noir. Which doesn't matter. In 1941 no-one knew film noir existed. Huston just made a crime movie which turned out to be a great movie.

    I'd rate The Man Who Would Be King as Huston's other great movie. Aside from that he made some interesting failures.

    The Maltese Falcon is a very great movie. But to a purist it’s not film noir. Which doesn’t matter. In 1941 no-one knew film noir existed. Huston just made a crime movie which turned out to be a great movie.

    I’d rate The Man Who Would Be King as Huston’s other great movie. Aside from that he made some interesting failures.

    Dunno. I can think of quite a few other successes in Huston’s filmography: Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The Asphalt Jungle, Key Largo, Fat City……..

    Read More
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  245. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.

    "Too narrow in the hips"--Nero in Quo Vadis?

    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.

    The good old Petty girl……

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.

    Caviar to the general, dear fellow…..A true divinity is beyond the hoi polloi….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    Caviar to the general
     
    Caviar for the Colonel as well:
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8WQ3g_t1joY/VqwmWHjCwyI/AAAAAAAA4BU/m3HoY3AhSLo/s1600/col%2Bblimp.jpg
    'Twill fill with joy and madness stark
    The hoi polloi!
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    NOTICE, he posts a classic blonde beauty in an evening gown, more akin to Jean Harlow (a definite classic beauty of her time).

    Hepburn wearing a masculine blouse (what else) and definitely not in an evening gown.
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  246. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Not exactly so much Huston's finesse with the camera but also a practical element. Most of the main actors were 5'6" and under. At times the camera angles appear to have been shot with the lense literally on the ground looking upward, and most likely for that practical reason. Two reasons why Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet were in a few films with Bogart. Both were at times contracted to Warners. The other reason, namely, that both men were shorter than Bogart, who wasn't a very tall man.

    There's a reason why Ward Bond doesn't stand directly next to Bogart until the final scene (or at least the camera angles don't focus on that aspect until the end).

    And Ward Bond was one of the greatest supporting actors in all of the classic Hollywood era, perhaps of the entire 20th century.

    Not exactly so much Huston’s finesse with the camera but also a practical element.

    Finesse makes the practical look graceful….

    Two reasons why Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet were in a few films with Bogart. Both were at times contracted to Warners. The other reason, namely, that both men were shorter than Bogart, who wasn’t a very tall man.

    And the third reason: They worked so well together…..the alchemy of chemistry…..it can’t be duplicated….

    And Ward Bond was one of the greatest supporting actors in all of the classic Hollywood era, perhaps of the entire 20th century.

    I prefer Elisha Cook, jr…..such an odd presence…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Finesse makes the practical look graceful…."

    Chance is the Fool's Name for Fate.

    The camera appears quite clunky at times since it appears that Huston was filming from the floor and shooting upward.

    Unlike Cooke, who usually got typcasted playing same old, same old, Ward Bond had a great range and is considered (AFI among them) to be among the greatest character/supporting actors of the 20th century. Another nominee for that category would be three time Oscar winner Walter Brennan, who was quite taller than Bogie, but it actually works to his advantage in To Have and to Have Not, since he's playing an affable garrulous drunkard whom no one takes very seriously.

    Cooke was in quite a few Bogart films for the obvious reason: way shorter than Bogie. He wasn't as adept at comedy as Ward Bond. Also, the great US genre, the Western was Bond's own and could compete with anyone in that field.
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  247. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Does appear to be the obvious point. The other being, that the Maltese Falcon at times gets more of an elite mention by the film school/film historians because it was John Huston's debut directing film. The question at times does come up: which film made Bogart a leading man Alister in his own right? The case can be made for either film. Most of the time, however, the Maltese Falcon is given the nod, even though both films were made in the same year.

    If anything, Raoul Walsh has often gotten thrown by the wayside among established elite opinion of film historians. Perhaps because he didn't win an Oscar, which Huston did (Treasure of the Sierra Madre), which of course starred Bogart. Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film. In other words, its unlikely that Huston could've directed a film such as Goodfellas or even the Godfather series, whereas Walsh could easily have directed such films and made them classics. Walsh did direct one of the earliest gangster films in the 1910's and was an established Alist director before either Huston or John Ford.

    High Sierra, however, (and Casablanca and later the Caine Mutiny) does help to demonstrate that Bogart didn't need Huston to make him a lasting great star (as he delivered indelible performances in these films), whereas Huston needed to rely more on Bogart for his great films. Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston's non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.

    In the final analysis, Bogart proved his range as an actor no matter the director, whereas the jury is still out with John Huston being considered one of the greatest ever directors of classic Hollywood, especially when Bogart is not in the film.

    Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston’s non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.

    The Man Who Would Be King ……And Fat City is an overlooked gem…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    If its overlooked then that means it wasn't all that. Else it would've been all that during its time.

    Duh.

    Man who would be King is overrated. A nice little pleasant buddy film, and nothing more. Certainly can't compete with Newman/Redford's The Sting, made around the same time and with a much stronger cast.
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  248. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.
     
    The good old Petty girl......



    https://68.media.tumblr.com/d0f19b0028b508ea49aeb3c5bed05c57/tumblr_n4oy6i3XhE1qh583lo1_1280.jpg

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.
     
    Caviar to the general, dear fellow.....A true divinity is beyond the hoi polloi....


    https://68.media.tumblr.com/2652fe7643c03313cb9e5e7275868d6b/tumblr_oo4114vdAt1rdwepdo1_500.jpg

    Caviar to the general

    Caviar for the Colonel as well:

    ‘Twill fill with joy and madness stark
    The hoi polloi!

    Read More
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  249. Dmitry says:
    @vinteuil
    Dmitry, even the best Russian poetry in the best translations comes across as pretty crappy stuff in English.

    No matter how long I live, or how hard I try, I'll never really *get* Pushkin.

    But, hey, maybe you're a multilingual genius who *gets* Kipling in the original English.

    I’m sure Kipling is probably a very good writer – I would like to read his book “Kim”, one day.

    But this poem of is banal and uninteresting (although it surely completes its mission, which is skillfully describing a kind of perfect attitude desired of English military officers).

    Poetry is not just the quality of the language, but also its images and ideas (which even badly translated, becomes interesting in different languages).

    17 year old poetry of Lermontov (I post Nabokov translation above) is not special just because of its language (in some areas it sounds cooler in the English), but because of metaphysical creepiness of the imagery, perfect matching of the language with the imagery, and that this nursery rhyme which also describes his own talent and is a prophecy of the life-trajectory of Lermontov (the poem implies his fate and why he will not spend much time on this planet, where the songs are less interesting than the world he came from).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    But this poem of is banal and uninteresting (although it surely completes its mission, which is skillfully describing a kind of perfect attitude desired of English military officers).

     

    The poem of Kipling containing some kind of Ancient Indian stoical atmosphere* as well - but never "taking off" with any visual, structure, or explanation why, so that after reading it you have no insight into the truth of these ideals (beyond your intuition that they sound cool).

    It's just listing these in an unrealistic, way as ideals to follow. (In some way, it seems not to reach the level of poetry).

    * E.g.

    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same"


    -

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  250. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry
    I'm sure Kipling is probably a very good writer - I would like to read his book "Kim", one day.

    But this poem of is banal and uninteresting (although it surely completes its mission, which is skillfully describing a kind of perfect attitude desired of English military officers).

    Poetry is not just the quality of the language, but also its images and ideas (which even badly translated, becomes interesting in different languages).

    17 year old poetry of Lermontov (I post Nabokov translation above) is not special just because of its language (in some areas it sounds cooler in the English), but because of metaphysical creepiness of the imagery, perfect matching of the language with the imagery, and that this nursery rhyme which also describes his own talent and is a prophecy of the life-trajectory of Lermontov (the poem implies his fate and why he will not spend much time on this planet, where the songs are less interesting than the world he came from).

    But this poem of is banal and uninteresting (although it surely completes its mission, which is skillfully describing a kind of perfect attitude desired of English military officers).

    The poem of Kipling containing some kind of Ancient Indian stoical atmosphere* as well – but never “taking off” with any visual, structure, or explanation why, so that after reading it you have no insight into the truth of these ideals (beyond your intuition that they sound cool).

    It’s just listing these in an unrealistic, way as ideals to follow. (In some way, it seems not to reach the level of poetry).

    * E.g.

    “If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same”

    -

    Read More
    • Replies: @vinteuil

    “If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same”
     
    Those are two utterly brilliant lines.
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  251. @syonredux

    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.
     
    The good old Petty girl......



    https://68.media.tumblr.com/d0f19b0028b508ea49aeb3c5bed05c57/tumblr_n4oy6i3XhE1qh583lo1_1280.jpg

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.
     
    Caviar to the general, dear fellow.....A true divinity is beyond the hoi polloi....


    https://68.media.tumblr.com/2652fe7643c03313cb9e5e7275868d6b/tumblr_oo4114vdAt1rdwepdo1_500.jpg

    NOTICE, he posts a classic blonde beauty in an evening gown, more akin to Jean Harlow (a definite classic beauty of her time).

    Hepburn wearing a masculine blouse (what else) and definitely not in an evening gown.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    NOTICE, he posts a classic blonde beauty in an evening gown, more akin to Jean Harlow (a definite classic beauty of her time).
     
    Rather better than Harlow, I should think; she always emanated an odor of decadence and decay, like meat left rotting in the summer sun.....

    Hepburn wearing a masculine blouse (what else) and definitely not in an evening gown.
     
    One does not gild the lily, dear fellow; the lines of a thoroughbred are visible in even the plainest garb.
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  252. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Ewwww! For goodness sakes! What kind of smut is being posted here? That line appears to be pre-Hayes Code.

    Well, at least one can say that that is definitely NOT Katherine Hepburn, who seldom looked good in an evening gown, much less in a dress.

    "Too narrow in the hips"--Nero in Quo Vadis?

    Rather look like that than a K-dash. Naughtiness is always better implied.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    'twas a different era and 'tis a different century now. Beauty standards have changed since that time.
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  253. @syonredux

    Not exactly so much Huston’s finesse with the camera but also a practical element.
     
    Finesse makes the practical look graceful....

    Two reasons why Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet were in a few films with Bogart. Both were at times contracted to Warners. The other reason, namely, that both men were shorter than Bogart, who wasn’t a very tall man.

     

    And the third reason: They worked so well together.....the alchemy of chemistry.....it can't be duplicated....

    And Ward Bond was one of the greatest supporting actors in all of the classic Hollywood era, perhaps of the entire 20th century.
     
    I prefer Elisha Cook, jr.....such an odd presence.....

    “Finesse makes the practical look graceful….”

    Chance is the Fool’s Name for Fate.

    The camera appears quite clunky at times since it appears that Huston was filming from the floor and shooting upward.

    Unlike Cooke, who usually got typcasted playing same old, same old, Ward Bond had a great range and is considered (AFI among them) to be among the greatest character/supporting actors of the 20th century. Another nominee for that category would be three time Oscar winner Walter Brennan, who was quite taller than Bogie, but it actually works to his advantage in To Have and to Have Not, since he’s playing an affable garrulous drunkard whom no one takes very seriously.

    Cooke was in quite a few Bogart films for the obvious reason: way shorter than Bogie. He wasn’t as adept at comedy as Ward Bond. Also, the great US genre, the Western was Bond’s own and could compete with anyone in that field.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    “Finesse makes the practical look graceful….”

    Chance is the Fool’s Name for Fate.
     
    The fool sees chance where the wise see design....

    As for Elisha Cook, jr, I've always liked what David Thompson had to say about him:

    There are big stars in the movies who pass by, leaving us uninterested.And there are supporting actors whose faces will stop you dead as you flip through an album history.Who really wants to know more about Robert Taylor, say? But who wouldn't want to read a good biography of Elisha Cook jr?He was small, scrawny; he was losing his hair, and had a high-pitched voice; he had eyes screwed into his head with all the desperate resolve of wanting to be taken seriously. He could be a loudmouth, bullying the air around him, like Wilmer in The Maltese Falcon, and he could be a quiet, gutsy squirt like Henry Jones in The Big Sleep. It wasn't a big adjustment, going from one to the other; and maybe it wasn't a huge range. But Elisha Cook was guaranteed. Put him in a bad picture, and he made it watchable for ten minutes. Put him in something good and he was a metaphor for glue, or the medium itself. He could make you trust a film.
     
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  254. @Father O'Hara
    This is just the kind of stuff they're talking about!

    In addition to Kipling,one of my favorites was Jack London. I wonder if he is on anyone's radar,or has he already been "un personned?"

    We read “To Build a Fire” in high school, and my mom got me “The Call of the Wild” when I was in Jr. High, but maybe he’s been labeled a thought-criminal since then.

    Read More
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  255. @syonredux

    Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston’s non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.
     
    The Man Who Would Be King ......And Fat City is an overlooked gem.....

    If its overlooked then that means it wasn’t all that. Else it would’ve been all that during its time.

    Duh.

    Man who would be King is overrated. A nice little pleasant buddy film, and nothing more. Certainly can’t compete with Newman/Redford’s The Sting, made around the same time and with a much stronger cast.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Disagree. The Sting was overly mannered and not very believable. It rode on the success of Newman and Redford in Butch Cassidy.
    , @syonredux

    If its overlooked then that means it wasn’t all that. Else it would’ve been all that during its time.

    Duh.
     

    Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! .....Although, the "duh" was a bit much.....

    Man who would be King is overrated. A nice little pleasant buddy film, and nothing more. Certainly can’t compete with Newman/Redford’s The Sting, made around the same time and with a much stronger cast.
     
    Other way round, surely. The Sting is a pleasant diversion, a well-acted bob-bon of a film, whereas The Man Who Would Be King contains unsettling truths and disturbing depths......
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  256. @Rosamond Vincy
    Rather look like that than a K-dash. Naughtiness is always better implied.

    ’twas a different era and ’tis a different century now. Beauty standards have changed since that time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    twas a different era and ’tis a different century now. Beauty standards have changed since that time.
     
    And for the worse......to go from this



    http://wfiles.brothersoft.com/j/joanne_dru_58411-1440x900.jpg


    To this surgically-enhanced monstrosity.....


    http://www.gotceleb.com/wp-content/uploads/photos/kim-kardashian/in-bikini-bottom-in-mexico/Kim-Kardashian-in-Bikini-Bottom-2017--09.jpg
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  257. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    If its overlooked then that means it wasn't all that. Else it would've been all that during its time.

    Duh.

    Man who would be King is overrated. A nice little pleasant buddy film, and nothing more. Certainly can't compete with Newman/Redford's The Sting, made around the same time and with a much stronger cast.

    Disagree. The Sting was overly mannered and not very believable. It rode on the success of Newman and Redford in Butch Cassidy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Unlike the Man who would be King, The Sting made tons at the box office and received tons of Oscar nominations. Even today, it's considered the epitome of early 70's buddy films. It's self-consciously a lark and both actors played it as such, they're having fun with it and it shows (or rather shines) through.
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  258. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    If its overlooked then that means it wasn't all that. Else it would've been all that during its time.

    Duh.

    Man who would be King is overrated. A nice little pleasant buddy film, and nothing more. Certainly can't compete with Newman/Redford's The Sting, made around the same time and with a much stronger cast.

    If its overlooked then that means it wasn’t all that. Else it would’ve been all that during its time.

    Duh.

    Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much…..

    Man who would be King is overrated. A nice little pleasant buddy film, and nothing more. Certainly can’t compete with Newman/Redford’s The Sting, made around the same time and with a much stronger cast.

    Other way round, surely. The Sting is a pleasant diversion, a well-acted bob-bon of a film, whereas The Man Who Would Be King contains unsettling truths and disturbing depths……

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much….."

    Now why is it that at times I do believe that you are channeling an inner Noel Coward? Or attempting to.

    This is 2018, correct? Was just checking because sometimes I'm not so sure after reading endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.

    The calla lilies are in bloom again. Really they are.
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  259. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Finesse makes the practical look graceful…."

    Chance is the Fool's Name for Fate.

    The camera appears quite clunky at times since it appears that Huston was filming from the floor and shooting upward.

    Unlike Cooke, who usually got typcasted playing same old, same old, Ward Bond had a great range and is considered (AFI among them) to be among the greatest character/supporting actors of the 20th century. Another nominee for that category would be three time Oscar winner Walter Brennan, who was quite taller than Bogie, but it actually works to his advantage in To Have and to Have Not, since he's playing an affable garrulous drunkard whom no one takes very seriously.

    Cooke was in quite a few Bogart films for the obvious reason: way shorter than Bogie. He wasn't as adept at comedy as Ward Bond. Also, the great US genre, the Western was Bond's own and could compete with anyone in that field.

    “Finesse makes the practical look graceful….”

    Chance is the Fool’s Name for Fate.

    The fool sees chance where the wise see design….

    As for Elisha Cook, jr, I’ve always liked what David Thompson had to say about him:

    There are big stars in the movies who pass by, leaving us uninterested.And there are supporting actors whose faces will stop you dead as you flip through an album history.Who really wants to know more about Robert Taylor, say? But who wouldn’t want to read a good biography of Elisha Cook jr?He was small, scrawny; he was losing his hair, and had a high-pitched voice; he had eyes screwed into his head with all the desperate resolve of wanting to be taken seriously. He could be a loudmouth, bullying the air around him, like Wilmer in The Maltese Falcon, and he could be a quiet, gutsy squirt like Henry Jones in The Big Sleep. It wasn’t a big adjustment, going from one to the other; and maybe it wasn’t a huge range. But Elisha Cook was guaranteed. Put him in a bad picture, and he made it watchable for ten minutes. Put him in something good and he was a metaphor for glue, or the medium itself. He could make you trust a film.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Could write pretty much the exact same thing about Ward Bond, you know.

    Overshadowed by John Ford and then by his buddy John Wayne. Finally in later middle age he gets a chance at stardom on TV, and then....rest in peace.
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  260. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    NOTICE, he posts a classic blonde beauty in an evening gown, more akin to Jean Harlow (a definite classic beauty of her time).

    Hepburn wearing a masculine blouse (what else) and definitely not in an evening gown.

    NOTICE, he posts a classic blonde beauty in an evening gown, more akin to Jean Harlow (a definite classic beauty of her time).

    Rather better than Harlow, I should think; she always emanated an odor of decadence and decay, like meat left rotting in the summer sun…..

    Hepburn wearing a masculine blouse (what else) and definitely not in an evening gown.

    One does not gild the lily, dear fellow; the lines of a thoroughbred are visible in even the plainest garb.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JMcG
    Great, if cruel, description of Harlow. She always seemed desperate to me.
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  261. syonredux says:
    @dfordoom

    By the way, note that i chose the ambiguous category of perhaps Hollywood’s most memorable personality to describe Huston
     
    Yep, he was certainly larger-than-life. And I have a soft spot for directors who make interesting failures. They're often preferable to uninteresting conventional successes. MOBY DICK and BEAT THE DEVIL are interesting Huston failures.

    Yep, he was certainly larger-than-life. And I have a soft spot for directors who make interesting failures. They’re often preferable to uninteresting conventional successes. MOBY DICK and BEAT THE DEVIL are interesting Huston failures.

    I always liked Orson Welles as Father Mapple in Moby-Dick

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  262. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Murder, My Sweet (1944) with Dick Powell as Phillip Marlowe can also be said to be a solid noir. It was Powell, and not Bogart, by the way, whom Raymond Chandler considered to be the definitive actor to play his private eye on screen. A bit surprised that Powell wasn't considered for an Oscar for the role. Of course, had the film been made at MGM and not at lower level studio RKO, perhaps he would've been.

    Robert Mitchum offered a reason as to why smaller studios made more noirs than the majors. At the lower/middling studios they could only afford to make so many A pictures and generally that meant that stars such as Cary Grant would get the best lighting, which meant that the studios other pictures had to be made on constrained budget (and lesser quality lighting) and hence the noir was born.

    Mitchum starred in the 1947 film noir Out of the Past with Kirk Douglas (still alive, by the way, at 101).

    Murder, My Sweet (1944) with Dick Powell as Phillip Marlowe can also be said to be a solid noir. It was Powell, and not Bogart, by the way, whom Raymond Chandler considered to be the definitive actor to play his private eye on screen. A bit surprised that Powell wasn’t considered for an Oscar for the role. Of course, had the film been made at MGM and not at lower level studio RKO, perhaps he would’ve been.

    Bit of an overlooked film. One thing that sets Powell’s Chandler apart is that he brings less baggage with him. Bogart was wonderful as Marlowe*, but one is always aware that one is watching Bogart….

    RE: Mitchum,

    It’s a great misfortune that we never got to see him play Marlowe in his prime….

    *Love this scene:

    Read More
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  263. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Does appear to be the obvious point. The other being, that the Maltese Falcon at times gets more of an elite mention by the film school/film historians because it was John Huston's debut directing film. The question at times does come up: which film made Bogart a leading man Alister in his own right? The case can be made for either film. Most of the time, however, the Maltese Falcon is given the nod, even though both films were made in the same year.

    If anything, Raoul Walsh has often gotten thrown by the wayside among established elite opinion of film historians. Perhaps because he didn't win an Oscar, which Huston did (Treasure of the Sierra Madre), which of course starred Bogart. Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film. In other words, its unlikely that Huston could've directed a film such as Goodfellas or even the Godfather series, whereas Walsh could easily have directed such films and made them classics. Walsh did direct one of the earliest gangster films in the 1910's and was an established Alist director before either Huston or John Ford.

    High Sierra, however, (and Casablanca and later the Caine Mutiny) does help to demonstrate that Bogart didn't need Huston to make him a lasting great star (as he delivered indelible performances in these films), whereas Huston needed to rely more on Bogart for his great films. Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston's non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.

    In the final analysis, Bogart proved his range as an actor no matter the director, whereas the jury is still out with John Huston being considered one of the greatest ever directors of classic Hollywood, especially when Bogart is not in the film.

    Yo, Thank you for the great reply.

    Read More
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  264. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    'twas a different era and 'tis a different century now. Beauty standards have changed since that time.

    twas a different era and ’tis a different century now. Beauty standards have changed since that time.

    And for the worse……to go from this

    To this surgically-enhanced monstrosity…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I will leave it to others to decide which part has been enhanced. However, in 2018, that is considered to be more in line with mainstream definitions of beauty. It definitely smolders, sizzles, with sensuality and S-E-X.

    Whereas the first woman....uh, pray tell, who exactly she be? Could be any one from a number of one to three. As in three thousand xeroxed copies of the same old, same old boring, tired, worn out, with that Vitalis over greased hair. It simply must be the fifties or early sixties.

    Egad. That we should mark this as a low ebb in feminine beauty and remark "May we never pass through this shameful portal ever again."

    Probably won't, as it is, after all, 2018. And women have certainly gotten more beautiful and more sensual with the passing decades.
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  265. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Does appear to be the obvious point. The other being, that the Maltese Falcon at times gets more of an elite mention by the film school/film historians because it was John Huston's debut directing film. The question at times does come up: which film made Bogart a leading man Alister in his own right? The case can be made for either film. Most of the time, however, the Maltese Falcon is given the nod, even though both films were made in the same year.

    If anything, Raoul Walsh has often gotten thrown by the wayside among established elite opinion of film historians. Perhaps because he didn't win an Oscar, which Huston did (Treasure of the Sierra Madre), which of course starred Bogart. Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film. In other words, its unlikely that Huston could've directed a film such as Goodfellas or even the Godfather series, whereas Walsh could easily have directed such films and made them classics. Walsh did direct one of the earliest gangster films in the 1910's and was an established Alist director before either Huston or John Ford.

    High Sierra, however, (and Casablanca and later the Caine Mutiny) does help to demonstrate that Bogart didn't need Huston to make him a lasting great star (as he delivered indelible performances in these films), whereas Huston needed to rely more on Bogart for his great films. Aside from perhaps The Asphalt Jungle (purposely cast without Bogart or a big name star for added heft), one can make the case that Huston's non-Bogart work throughout his career does not contain a great film comparable to his Bogart ones.

    In the final analysis, Bogart proved his range as an actor no matter the director, whereas the jury is still out with John Huston being considered one of the greatest ever directors of classic Hollywood, especially when Bogart is not in the film.

    . Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film.

    Walsh was certainly a master of the gangster film (The Roaring Twenties, White Heat), but I’m less confident about his stature as a director of Westerns. I just can’t quite rank his films in the genre alongside the work of Anthony Mann, Budd Boetticher . Howard Hawks, John Ford….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    From wikipedia on Walsh's 1915 film Regeneration:

    "Cited as one of the first full-length gangster films,[3] Regeneration tells the story of a poor orphan who rises to control the mob until he meets a woman for whom he wants to change."

    Walsh also did quite well in comedy pictures, from his 1926 What Price Glory?, to 1936 Klondike Annie with Mae West.

    Now if you want to suggest a classic hollywood amazing personality female, unlike Hepburn, I would suggest Mae West. A very world wise woman, and nobody's fool. Understood how the game was played and never insisted on less than her just share. Also, in her own code, she didn't do dirt to those who didn't diss her.

    Walsh Westerns, we have The Big Trail (1930), was among the first 70mm widescreen films. It was an amazing film. It had the misfortune of being released in one of the worst years of the Depression, as well as only a couple of movie houses in NY and LA having the equipment to show the 70mm version. The 35mm doesnt do it justice.

    Dark Command (1940) an excellent pairing of John Wayne and Walter Pidgeon. Could perhaps make a case for Robert Mitchum's Pursued (1947). And of course The Tall Men (1955) with Clark Gable is an affable fun time all around.

    War films would include Objective Burma (1945), perhaps Errol Flynn's best attempts at serious understated acting (for him) a fairly realistic type of film considering the time period and material.

    So overall careerwise, Walsh was just the equal if not the better to John Huston. And Walsh wrote an entertaining autobiography of his friendships with diverse peoples from Errol Flynn to John Barrymore.

    I'm thinking that Walsh would've been an ideal choice to direct Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard script as he literally lived that era (silent) and knew it from the start.
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  266. @Jim Don Bob
    Disagree. The Sting was overly mannered and not very believable. It rode on the success of Newman and Redford in Butch Cassidy.

    Unlike the Man who would be King, The Sting made tons at the box office and received tons of Oscar nominations. Even today, it’s considered the epitome of early 70′s buddy films. It’s self-consciously a lark and both actors played it as such, they’re having fun with it and it shows (or rather shines) through.

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  267. @syonredux

    If its overlooked then that means it wasn’t all that. Else it would’ve been all that during its time.

    Duh.
     

    Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! .....Although, the "duh" was a bit much.....

    Man who would be King is overrated. A nice little pleasant buddy film, and nothing more. Certainly can’t compete with Newman/Redford’s The Sting, made around the same time and with a much stronger cast.
     
    Other way round, surely. The Sting is a pleasant diversion, a well-acted bob-bon of a film, whereas The Man Who Would Be King contains unsettling truths and disturbing depths......

    “Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much…..”

    Now why is it that at times I do believe that you are channeling an inner Noel Coward? Or attempting to.

    This is 2018, correct? Was just checking because sometimes I’m not so sure after reading endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.

    The calla lilies are in bloom again. Really they are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.
     
    https://mb.ntd.tv/inspiring/assets/uploads/2017/10/NTD-PEON-TO-MILLIONIARE-640x359.png
    ?
    , @syonredux

    Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much…..”

    Now why is it that at times I do believe that you are channeling an inner Noel Coward? Or attempting to.
     
    I've always been a young fogey.....

    This is 2018, correct? Was just checking because sometimes I’m not so sure after reading endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.
     
    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate.....
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  268. @syonredux

    “Finesse makes the practical look graceful….”

    Chance is the Fool’s Name for Fate.
     
    The fool sees chance where the wise see design....

    As for Elisha Cook, jr, I've always liked what David Thompson had to say about him:

    There are big stars in the movies who pass by, leaving us uninterested.And there are supporting actors whose faces will stop you dead as you flip through an album history.Who really wants to know more about Robert Taylor, say? But who wouldn't want to read a good biography of Elisha Cook jr?He was small, scrawny; he was losing his hair, and had a high-pitched voice; he had eyes screwed into his head with all the desperate resolve of wanting to be taken seriously. He could be a loudmouth, bullying the air around him, like Wilmer in The Maltese Falcon, and he could be a quiet, gutsy squirt like Henry Jones in The Big Sleep. It wasn't a big adjustment, going from one to the other; and maybe it wasn't a huge range. But Elisha Cook was guaranteed. Put him in a bad picture, and he made it watchable for ten minutes. Put him in something good and he was a metaphor for glue, or the medium itself. He could make you trust a film.
     

    Could write pretty much the exact same thing about Ward Bond, you know.

    Overshadowed by John Ford and then by his buddy John Wayne. Finally in later middle age he gets a chance at stardom on TV, and then….rest in peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Could write pretty much the exact same thing about Ward Bond, you know.
     
    When it came to Ward Bond, Thompson was rather harsh:

    [T]here are many stories about Bond's stupidity, his uncouthness, and his being the butt of jokes-and sadly these are more entertaining than many of the films he made. Which is not to say that Bond was a hopeless case:in The Searchers, he notices the way Ethan's sister-in-law handles his coat; and in Gentleman Jim-as John L Sullivan-he brings a tear to the eye. All too often, however, the tears are in his own eyes first.
     
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  269. @syonredux

    twas a different era and ’tis a different century now. Beauty standards have changed since that time.
     
    And for the worse......to go from this



    http://wfiles.brothersoft.com/j/joanne_dru_58411-1440x900.jpg


    To this surgically-enhanced monstrosity.....


    http://www.gotceleb.com/wp-content/uploads/photos/kim-kardashian/in-bikini-bottom-in-mexico/Kim-Kardashian-in-Bikini-Bottom-2017--09.jpg

    I will leave it to others to decide which part has been enhanced. However, in 2018, that is considered to be more in line with mainstream definitions of beauty. It definitely smolders, sizzles, with sensuality and S-E-X.

    Whereas the first woman….uh, pray tell, who exactly she be? Could be any one from a number of one to three. As in three thousand xeroxed copies of the same old, same old boring, tired, worn out, with that Vitalis over greased hair. It simply must be the fifties or early sixties.

    Egad. That we should mark this as a low ebb in feminine beauty and remark “May we never pass through this shameful portal ever again.”

    Probably won’t, as it is, after all, 2018. And women have certainly gotten more beautiful and more sensual with the passing decades.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    I will leave it to others to decide which part has been enhanced. However, in 2018, that is considered to be more in line with mainstream definitions of beauty. It definitely smolders, sizzles, with sensuality and S-E-X.
     
    Which merely indicates how far we have fallen.....that Black and Latinx standards are now accepted.....

    And it's the caudal appendage that has been enhanced, dear fellow. What's the opposite of callipygous? Cacopygous?

    Whereas the first woman….uh, pray tell, who exactly she be?
     
    And here I thought that you were a cinéaste.....It's Joanne Dru, dear fellow.You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon....

    Could be any one from a number of one to three. As in three thousand xeroxed copies of the same old, same old boring, tired, worn out, with that Vitalis over greased hair. It simply must be the fifties or early sixties.
     
    The before times, the long, long ago.....When true beauties walked the Earth.....


    http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/24600000/AVA-GARDNER-ava-gardner-24658076-680-908.jpg


    http://highlighthollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Maureen-O-Hara-classic-movies-22535468-1200-1301.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/5a/5f/7e5a5f510d457e3c61a7e75bffa77018.jpg

    Probably won’t, as it is, after all, 2018. And women have certainly gotten more beautiful and more sensual with the passing decades.
     
    Judging by this Kardashian mudshark......Certainly not....
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  270. @syonredux

    . Like Huston, Walsh made films in several genres. Unlike Huston, Walsh was a master at both the Western and the gangster film.
     
    Walsh was certainly a master of the gangster film (The Roaring Twenties, White Heat), but I'm less confident about his stature as a director of Westerns. I just can't quite rank his films in the genre alongside the work of Anthony Mann, Budd Boetticher . Howard Hawks, John Ford....

    From wikipedia on Walsh’s 1915 film Regeneration:

    “Cited as one of the first full-length gangster films,[3] Regeneration tells the story of a poor orphan who rises to control the mob until he meets a woman for whom he wants to change.”

    Walsh also did quite well in comedy pictures, from his 1926 What Price Glory?, to 1936 Klondike Annie with Mae West.

    Now if you want to suggest a classic hollywood amazing personality female, unlike Hepburn, I would suggest Mae West. A very world wise woman, and nobody’s fool. Understood how the game was played and never insisted on less than her just share. Also, in her own code, she didn’t do dirt to those who didn’t diss her.

    Walsh Westerns, we have The Big Trail (1930), was among the first 70mm widescreen films. It was an amazing film. It had the misfortune of being released in one of the worst years of the Depression, as well as only a couple of movie houses in NY and LA having the equipment to show the 70mm version. The 35mm doesnt do it justice.

    Dark Command (1940) an excellent pairing of John Wayne and Walter Pidgeon. Could perhaps make a case for Robert Mitchum’s Pursued (1947). And of course The Tall Men (1955) with Clark Gable is an affable fun time all around.

    War films would include Objective Burma (1945), perhaps Errol Flynn’s best attempts at serious understated acting (for him) a fairly realistic type of film considering the time period and material.

    So overall careerwise, Walsh was just the equal if not the better to John Huston. And Walsh wrote an entertaining autobiography of his friendships with diverse peoples from Errol Flynn to John Barrymore.

    I’m thinking that Walsh would’ve been an ideal choice to direct Billy Wilder’s Sunset Boulevard script as he literally lived that era (silent) and knew it from the start.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    From wikipedia on Walsh’s 1915 film Regeneration:

    “Cited as one of the first full-length gangster films,[3] Regeneration tells the story of a poor orphan who rises to control the mob until he meets a woman for whom he wants to change.”
     
    Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film......

    Walsh also did quite well in comedy pictures, from his 1926 What Price Glory?, to 1936 Klondike Annie with Mae West.
     
    Walsh was a very versatile guy, no doubt. His Captain Horatio Hornblower, for example, is an excellent Napoleonic-era naval adventure film.

    Now if you want to suggest a classic hollywood amazing personality female, unlike Hepburn, I would suggest Mae West. A very world wise woman, and nobody’s fool. Understood how the game was played and never insisted on less than her just share. Also, in her own code, she didn’t do dirt to those who didn’t diss her.
     
    Mae West, another grotesque abomination.....She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd....

    Walsh Westerns, we have The Big Trail (1930), was among the first 70mm widescreen films. It was an amazing film. It had the misfortune of being released in one of the worst years of the Depression, as well as only a couple of movie houses in NY and LA having the equipment to show the 70mm version. The 35mm doesnt do it justice.

    Dark Command (1940) an excellent pairing of John Wayne and Walter Pidgeon. Could perhaps make a case for Robert Mitchum’s Pursued (1947). And of course The Tall Men (1955) with Clark Gable is an affable fun time all around.
     
    Walsh was a good, but not great, director of Westerns. I just can't set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc

    I’m thinking that Walsh would’ve been an ideal choice to direct Billy Wilder’s Sunset Boulevard script as he literally lived that era (silent) and knew it from the start.
     
    Dunno. Could he have conjured the "Hollywood Gothic" atmosphere that the script requires.....
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  271. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much….."

    Now why is it that at times I do believe that you are channeling an inner Noel Coward? Or attempting to.

    This is 2018, correct? Was just checking because sometimes I'm not so sure after reading endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.

    The calla lilies are in bloom again. Really they are.

    endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.


    ?

    Read More
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  272. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @kaganovitch
    May God bless her and keep her.

    Seconded.

    And congratulations as well on her 101st birthday.

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  273. JMcG says:
    @syonredux

    NOTICE, he posts a classic blonde beauty in an evening gown, more akin to Jean Harlow (a definite classic beauty of her time).
     
    Rather better than Harlow, I should think; she always emanated an odor of decadence and decay, like meat left rotting in the summer sun.....

    Hepburn wearing a masculine blouse (what else) and definitely not in an evening gown.
     
    One does not gild the lily, dear fellow; the lines of a thoroughbred are visible in even the plainest garb.

    Great, if cruel, description of Harlow. She always seemed desperate to me.

    Read More
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  274. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    From wikipedia on Walsh's 1915 film Regeneration:

    "Cited as one of the first full-length gangster films,[3] Regeneration tells the story of a poor orphan who rises to control the mob until he meets a woman for whom he wants to change."

    Walsh also did quite well in comedy pictures, from his 1926 What Price Glory?, to 1936 Klondike Annie with Mae West.

    Now if you want to suggest a classic hollywood amazing personality female, unlike Hepburn, I would suggest Mae West. A very world wise woman, and nobody's fool. Understood how the game was played and never insisted on less than her just share. Also, in her own code, she didn't do dirt to those who didn't diss her.

    Walsh Westerns, we have The Big Trail (1930), was among the first 70mm widescreen films. It was an amazing film. It had the misfortune of being released in one of the worst years of the Depression, as well as only a couple of movie houses in NY and LA having the equipment to show the 70mm version. The 35mm doesnt do it justice.

    Dark Command (1940) an excellent pairing of John Wayne and Walter Pidgeon. Could perhaps make a case for Robert Mitchum's Pursued (1947). And of course The Tall Men (1955) with Clark Gable is an affable fun time all around.

    War films would include Objective Burma (1945), perhaps Errol Flynn's best attempts at serious understated acting (for him) a fairly realistic type of film considering the time period and material.

    So overall careerwise, Walsh was just the equal if not the better to John Huston. And Walsh wrote an entertaining autobiography of his friendships with diverse peoples from Errol Flynn to John Barrymore.

    I'm thinking that Walsh would've been an ideal choice to direct Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard script as he literally lived that era (silent) and knew it from the start.

    From wikipedia on Walsh’s 1915 film Regeneration:

    “Cited as one of the first full-length gangster films,[3] Regeneration tells the story of a poor orphan who rises to control the mob until he meets a woman for whom he wants to change.”

    Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film……

    Walsh also did quite well in comedy pictures, from his 1926 What Price Glory?, to 1936 Klondike Annie with Mae West.

    Walsh was a very versatile guy, no doubt. His Captain Horatio Hornblower, for example, is an excellent Napoleonic-era naval adventure film.

    Now if you want to suggest a classic hollywood amazing personality female, unlike Hepburn, I would suggest Mae West. A very world wise woman, and nobody’s fool. Understood how the game was played and never insisted on less than her just share. Also, in her own code, she didn’t do dirt to those who didn’t diss her.

    Mae West, another grotesque abomination…..She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd….

    Walsh Westerns, we have The Big Trail (1930), was among the first 70mm widescreen films. It was an amazing film. It had the misfortune of being released in one of the worst years of the Depression, as well as only a couple of movie houses in NY and LA having the equipment to show the 70mm version. The 35mm doesnt do it justice.

    Dark Command (1940) an excellent pairing of John Wayne and Walter Pidgeon. Could perhaps make a case for Robert Mitchum’s Pursued (1947). And of course The Tall Men (1955) with Clark Gable is an affable fun time all around.

    Walsh was a good, but not great, director of Westerns. I just can’t set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc

    I’m thinking that Walsh would’ve been an ideal choice to direct Billy Wilder’s Sunset Boulevard script as he literally lived that era (silent) and knew it from the start.

    Dunno. Could he have conjured the “Hollywood Gothic” atmosphere that the script requires…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film……"

    Yes, but sometimes its better when Wiki says it. Although its best not to quote TOO much from Wiki, as it then becomes a rather lowbrow, down market thing to do.


    "Mae West, another grotesque abomination…..She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd…."

    Now that's a snobbish insult of Mae. German-Irish, she was the late Victorian ideal type of woman, an example of new America post-Civil War. Ms. West would never have gone for the likes of Kardashians, as: 1. She tended to see through the phonies and frauds. 2. Understood never to cross a certain line in dealing with the opposite sexes. And unlike the waif like butchette, Mae West was quite a visually interesting woman in her own right and for her own time.

    "The Cala lillies are out in bloom, really they are."

    No, they are NOT. And certainly not from one such as THAT.


    "I just can’t set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc"

    Come, come now. You forgot to include Shane, as well as The Plainsman in that category. Neither film should be relegated to the 'etc'.


    "Dunno. Could he have conjured the “Hollywood Gothic” atmosphere that the script requires….."

    Uh, yes, yes, he could. His They Drive By Night has a goth realism that was quite unique for WB in 1940. Underrated and a bit forgotten, unfortunately. Had he but won for White Heat.
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  275. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    I will leave it to others to decide which part has been enhanced. However, in 2018, that is considered to be more in line with mainstream definitions of beauty. It definitely smolders, sizzles, with sensuality and S-E-X.

    Whereas the first woman....uh, pray tell, who exactly she be? Could be any one from a number of one to three. As in three thousand xeroxed copies of the same old, same old boring, tired, worn out, with that Vitalis over greased hair. It simply must be the fifties or early sixties.

    Egad. That we should mark this as a low ebb in feminine beauty and remark "May we never pass through this shameful portal ever again."

    Probably won't, as it is, after all, 2018. And women have certainly gotten more beautiful and more sensual with the passing decades.

    I will leave it to others to decide which part has been enhanced. However, in 2018, that is considered to be more in line with mainstream definitions of beauty. It definitely smolders, sizzles, with sensuality and S-E-X.

    Which merely indicates how far we have fallen…..that Black and Latinx standards are now accepted…..

    And it’s the caudal appendage that has been enhanced, dear fellow. What’s the opposite of callipygous? Cacopygous?

    Whereas the first woman….uh, pray tell, who exactly she be?

    And here I thought that you were a cinéaste…..It’s Joanne Dru, dear fellow.You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon….

    Could be any one from a number of one to three. As in three thousand xeroxed copies of the same old, same old boring, tired, worn out, with that Vitalis over greased hair. It simply must be the fifties or early sixties.

    The before times, the long, long ago…..When true beauties walked the Earth…..

    Probably won’t, as it is, after all, 2018. And women have certainly gotten more beautiful and more sensual with the passing decades.

    Judging by this Kardashian mudshark……Certainly not….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Smut, smut, and double smut! What kind of pictures is one allowed to post here? Goodness, gracious!

    "And here I thought that you were a cinéaste….."

    I never made that assumption towards you. What is this exactly? The verbiage of wits a la Pee Wee's Big Adventure (1985) when Mr. Wee and Clarence engage in their "I know you are, but what am I?"
    Goodness!


    It’s Joanne Dru, dear fellow."

    Uh, yes, and that was sarcasm, Katherine.


    "You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon…."

    And I suppose its only natural that you forgot to mention her role as the double love interest in Broderick Crawford's tour de force All the King's Men. Apparently by your reckoning that long forgotten film isn't worth all that much either. But then, when one is posting smutty pictures of classic women, well, sorry, but the brain does tend to forget the subject matter at hand, so perhaps shouldn't be entirely surprised.

    Smut, smut, and double smut. Totally unacceptable. May I remind you that there used to be fairly strict laws in the US on what one could and could not consume for visual consumption? Truly don't know what to make of this....this....type of visual stimulation.

    Props though for posting Ava. Now there was a true beauty. Could easily have played Delilah in DeMille's Samson and Delilah, hands down.
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  276. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Could write pretty much the exact same thing about Ward Bond, you know.

    Overshadowed by John Ford and then by his buddy John Wayne. Finally in later middle age he gets a chance at stardom on TV, and then....rest in peace.

    Could write pretty much the exact same thing about Ward Bond, you know.

    When it came to Ward Bond, Thompson was rather harsh:

    [T]here are many stories about Bond’s stupidity, his uncouthness, and his being the butt of jokes-and sadly these are more entertaining than many of the films he made. Which is not to say that Bond was a hopeless case:in The Searchers, he notices the way Ethan’s sister-in-law handles his coat; and in Gentleman Jim-as John L Sullivan-he brings a tear to the eye. All too often, however, the tears are in his own eyes first.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And yet the AFI has him in about two dozen films that are considered among the greatest of 20th century Hollywood.

    It was Bond, more so than Wayne, who was John Ford's favorite actor in the sound era as he used him about 24 or so times. His work in Wagonmaster (1950), Young Mr Lincoln, ('39), The Fugitive (47), and My Darling Clementine (46). Point being that Ford used Bond in some unusual films that Wayne never appeared in.

    Before one so quickly says "Ah yes, but that's because Ford got the most out of him", that's definitely true, at the same time, however, Bond proved more than able in Huston's The Maltese Falcon, It's a Wonderful Life, Johnny Guitar, and Sergeant York.

    More than versatile, a definite range for comedy or drama. Where Bond tends to fall through the cracks is due in large part:

    1. His right wing politics (leading member of MPAA), not entirely fair, but there you have it. Had Bond been a leftist he'd definitely be given greater slack and leeway.

    2. Not a leading man til the end of his life. Always an important part of the cast but never the main thing.

    3. Dying in 1960, just as Film Studies was taking off in America. Had he lived another decade, he could've given ample interviews still enjoyed today. Whereas Raoul Walsh had the decency to not pass away until 1980.

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  277. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much….."

    Now why is it that at times I do believe that you are channeling an inner Noel Coward? Or attempting to.

    This is 2018, correct? Was just checking because sometimes I'm not so sure after reading endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.

    The calla lilies are in bloom again. Really they are.

    Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much…..”

    Now why is it that at times I do believe that you are channeling an inner Noel Coward? Or attempting to.

    I’ve always been a young fogey…..

    This is 2018, correct? Was just checking because sometimes I’m not so sure after reading endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.

    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate…..
     
    or

    A FOOL there was and he made his prayer
    (A Fool as you and I !)
    To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair
    ...
     
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  278. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Top-notch satire on your part. Bravo! …..Although, the “duh” was a bit much…..”

    Now why is it that at times I do believe that you are channeling an inner Noel Coward? Or attempting to.
     
    I've always been a young fogey.....

    This is 2018, correct? Was just checking because sometimes I’m not so sure after reading endless peons to Katherine Hepburn.
     
    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate.....

    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate…..

    or

    A FOOL there was and he made his prayer
    (A Fool as you and I !)
    To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate…..

    or

    A FOOL there was and he made his prayer
    (A Fool as you and I !)
    To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair
     

    In a foolish age, the wise man is taken for a fool......
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  279. @syonredux

    From wikipedia on Walsh’s 1915 film Regeneration:

    “Cited as one of the first full-length gangster films,[3] Regeneration tells the story of a poor orphan who rises to control the mob until he meets a woman for whom he wants to change.”
     
    Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film......

    Walsh also did quite well in comedy pictures, from his 1926 What Price Glory?, to 1936 Klondike Annie with Mae West.
     
    Walsh was a very versatile guy, no doubt. His Captain Horatio Hornblower, for example, is an excellent Napoleonic-era naval adventure film.

    Now if you want to suggest a classic hollywood amazing personality female, unlike Hepburn, I would suggest Mae West. A very world wise woman, and nobody’s fool. Understood how the game was played and never insisted on less than her just share. Also, in her own code, she didn’t do dirt to those who didn’t diss her.
     
    Mae West, another grotesque abomination.....She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd....

    Walsh Westerns, we have The Big Trail (1930), was among the first 70mm widescreen films. It was an amazing film. It had the misfortune of being released in one of the worst years of the Depression, as well as only a couple of movie houses in NY and LA having the equipment to show the 70mm version. The 35mm doesnt do it justice.

    Dark Command (1940) an excellent pairing of John Wayne and Walter Pidgeon. Could perhaps make a case for Robert Mitchum’s Pursued (1947). And of course The Tall Men (1955) with Clark Gable is an affable fun time all around.
     
    Walsh was a good, but not great, director of Westerns. I just can't set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc

    I’m thinking that Walsh would’ve been an ideal choice to direct Billy Wilder’s Sunset Boulevard script as he literally lived that era (silent) and knew it from the start.
     
    Dunno. Could he have conjured the "Hollywood Gothic" atmosphere that the script requires.....

    “Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film……”

    Yes, but sometimes its better when Wiki says it. Although its best not to quote TOO much from Wiki, as it then becomes a rather lowbrow, down market thing to do.

    “Mae West, another grotesque abomination…..She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd….”

    Now that’s a snobbish insult of Mae. German-Irish, she was the late Victorian ideal type of woman, an example of new America post-Civil War. Ms. West would never have gone for the likes of Kardashians, as: 1. She tended to see through the phonies and frauds. 2. Understood never to cross a certain line in dealing with the opposite sexes. And unlike the waif like butchette, Mae West was quite a visually interesting woman in her own right and for her own time.

    “The Cala lillies are out in bloom, really they are.”

    No, they are NOT. And certainly not from one such as THAT.

    “I just can’t set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc”

    Come, come now. You forgot to include Shane, as well as The Plainsman in that category. Neither film should be relegated to the ‘etc’.

    “Dunno. Could he have conjured the “Hollywood Gothic” atmosphere that the script requires…..”

    Uh, yes, yes, he could. His They Drive By Night has a goth realism that was quite unique for WB in 1940. Underrated and a bit forgotten, unfortunately. Had he but won for White Heat.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    “Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film……”

    Yes, but sometimes its better when Wiki says it.
     
    Probably not in this instance.....

    “Mae West, another grotesque abomination…..She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd….”

    Now that’s a snobbish insult of Mae. German-Irish, she was the late Victorian ideal type of woman, an example of new America post-Civil War. Ms. West would never have gone for the likes of Kardashians, as: 1. She tended to see through the phonies and frauds. 2. Understood never to cross a certain line in dealing with the opposite sexes. And unlike the waif like butchette, Mae West was quite a visually interesting woman in her own right and for her own time.
     
    Snobbery is essential, dear fellow; it keeps the Latinx at bay.

    As for Mae West.....hideous though she was (to look upon her is to retch), she did possesses a quick wit.....If only she she had confined herself to radio and the stage (best heard, not seen)....

    “I just can’t set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc”

    Come, come now. You forgot to include Shane, as well as The Plainsman in that category. Neither film should be relegated to the ‘etc’.
     
    Not quite up to the level of the others......Although Jack Palance was truly marvelous in Shane

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWnDVW07_1c

    “Dunno. Could he have conjured the “Hollywood Gothic” atmosphere that the script requires…..”

    Uh, yes, yes, he could. His They Drive By Night has a goth realism that was quite unique for WB in 1940. Underrated and a bit forgotten, unfortunately. Had he but won for White Heat.
     
    Fine film (Ida Lupino is quite good in it).....But it doesn't convince me that Walsh could have handled Sunset Boulevard....
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  280. @syonredux

    I will leave it to others to decide which part has been enhanced. However, in 2018, that is considered to be more in line with mainstream definitions of beauty. It definitely smolders, sizzles, with sensuality and S-E-X.
     
    Which merely indicates how far we have fallen.....that Black and Latinx standards are now accepted.....

    And it's the caudal appendage that has been enhanced, dear fellow. What's the opposite of callipygous? Cacopygous?

    Whereas the first woman….uh, pray tell, who exactly she be?
     
    And here I thought that you were a cinéaste.....It's Joanne Dru, dear fellow.You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon....

    Could be any one from a number of one to three. As in three thousand xeroxed copies of the same old, same old boring, tired, worn out, with that Vitalis over greased hair. It simply must be the fifties or early sixties.
     
    The before times, the long, long ago.....When true beauties walked the Earth.....


    http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/24600000/AVA-GARDNER-ava-gardner-24658076-680-908.jpg


    http://highlighthollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Maureen-O-Hara-classic-movies-22535468-1200-1301.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/5a/5f/7e5a5f510d457e3c61a7e75bffa77018.jpg

    Probably won’t, as it is, after all, 2018. And women have certainly gotten more beautiful and more sensual with the passing decades.
     
    Judging by this Kardashian mudshark......Certainly not....

    Smut, smut, and double smut! What kind of pictures is one allowed to post here? Goodness, gracious!

    “And here I thought that you were a cinéaste…..”

    I never made that assumption towards you. What is this exactly? The verbiage of wits a la Pee Wee’s Big Adventure (1985) when Mr. Wee and Clarence engage in their “I know you are, but what am I?”
    Goodness!

    It’s Joanne Dru, dear fellow.”

    Uh, yes, and that was sarcasm, Katherine.

    “You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon….”

    And I suppose its only natural that you forgot to mention her role as the double love interest in Broderick Crawford’s tour de force All the King’s Men. Apparently by your reckoning that long forgotten film isn’t worth all that much either. But then, when one is posting smutty pictures of classic women, well, sorry, but the brain does tend to forget the subject matter at hand, so perhaps shouldn’t be entirely surprised.

    Smut, smut, and double smut. Totally unacceptable. May I remind you that there used to be fairly strict laws in the US on what one could and could not consume for visual consumption? Truly don’t know what to make of this….this….type of visual stimulation.

    Props though for posting Ava. Now there was a true beauty. Could easily have played Delilah in DeMille’s Samson and Delilah, hands down.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    It’s Joanne Dru, dear fellow.”

    Uh, yes, and that was sarcasm, Katherine.
     
    Thank God.....For a moment there I thought that you were truly benighted.....

    “You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon….”

    And I suppose its only natural that you forgot to mention her role as the double love interest in Broderick Crawford’s tour de force All the King’s Men. Apparently by your reckoning that long forgotten film isn’t worth all that much either.
     
    Didn't feel like posting her entire CV, dear fellow.....

    Smut, smut, and double smut. Totally unacceptable. May I remind you that there used to be fairly strict laws in the US on what one could and could not consume for visual consumption? Truly don’t know what to make of this….this….type of visual stimulation.

     

    A reminder of the what the world was like pre-Kardashian:


    http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12000000/Vivien-Leigh-vivien-leigh-12001641-760-952.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a9/2f/4f/a92f4febe8c71668e0e41d38a6ffda7a.jpg


    https://medias.unifrance.org/medias/157/11/68509/format_page/ingrid-bergman.jpg
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  281. @syonredux

    Could write pretty much the exact same thing about Ward Bond, you know.
     
    When it came to Ward Bond, Thompson was rather harsh:

    [T]here are many stories about Bond's stupidity, his uncouthness, and his being the butt of jokes-and sadly these are more entertaining than many of the films he made. Which is not to say that Bond was a hopeless case:in The Searchers, he notices the way Ethan's sister-in-law handles his coat; and in Gentleman Jim-as John L Sullivan-he brings a tear to the eye. All too often, however, the tears are in his own eyes first.
     

    And yet the AFI has him in about two dozen films that are considered among the greatest of 20th century Hollywood.

    It was Bond, more so than Wayne, who was John Ford’s favorite actor in the sound era as he used him about 24 or so times. His work in Wagonmaster (1950), Young Mr Lincoln, (’39), The Fugitive (47), and My Darling Clementine (46). Point being that Ford used Bond in some unusual films that Wayne never appeared in.

    Before one so quickly says “Ah yes, but that’s because Ford got the most out of him”, that’s definitely true, at the same time, however, Bond proved more than able in Huston’s The Maltese Falcon, It’s a Wonderful Life, Johnny Guitar, and Sergeant York.

    More than versatile, a definite range for comedy or drama. Where Bond tends to fall through the cracks is due in large part:

    1. His right wing politics (leading member of MPAA), not entirely fair, but there you have it. Had Bond been a leftist he’d definitely be given greater slack and leeway.

    2. Not a leading man til the end of his life. Always an important part of the cast but never the main thing.

    3. Dying in 1960, just as Film Studies was taking off in America. Had he lived another decade, he could’ve given ample interviews still enjoyed today. Whereas Raoul Walsh had the decency to not pass away until 1980.

    Read More
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  282. vinteuil says:
    @Dmitry

    But this poem of is banal and uninteresting (although it surely completes its mission, which is skillfully describing a kind of perfect attitude desired of English military officers).

     

    The poem of Kipling containing some kind of Ancient Indian stoical atmosphere* as well - but never "taking off" with any visual, structure, or explanation why, so that after reading it you have no insight into the truth of these ideals (beyond your intuition that they sound cool).

    It's just listing these in an unrealistic, way as ideals to follow. (In some way, it seems not to reach the level of poetry).

    * E.g.

    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same"


    -

    “If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same”

    Those are two utterly brilliant lines.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Question: HOW exactly does one treat both Triumph and Disaster? Nonchalant, a la "aw, shucks, 'tis no big deal." In an effete, pissed off mood?

    Perhaps one could get a cue from how President Trump might treat them.
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  283. syonredux says:
    @Anon

    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate…..
     
    or

    A FOOL there was and he made his prayer
    (A Fool as you and I !)
    To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair
    ...
     

    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate…..

    or

    A FOOL there was and he made his prayer
    (A Fool as you and I !)
    To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair

    In a foolish age, the wise man is taken for a fool……

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    You're right; how could even Kipling have made such a mistake as to consider someone a fool who can recognize that

    the lines of a thoroughbred are visible in even the plainest garb
     
    as below:
    https://data.whicdn.com/images/86125152/original.jpg
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  284. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Smut, smut, and double smut! What kind of pictures is one allowed to post here? Goodness, gracious!

    "And here I thought that you were a cinéaste….."

    I never made that assumption towards you. What is this exactly? The verbiage of wits a la Pee Wee's Big Adventure (1985) when Mr. Wee and Clarence engage in their "I know you are, but what am I?"
    Goodness!


    It’s Joanne Dru, dear fellow."

    Uh, yes, and that was sarcasm, Katherine.


    "You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon…."

    And I suppose its only natural that you forgot to mention her role as the double love interest in Broderick Crawford's tour de force All the King's Men. Apparently by your reckoning that long forgotten film isn't worth all that much either. But then, when one is posting smutty pictures of classic women, well, sorry, but the brain does tend to forget the subject matter at hand, so perhaps shouldn't be entirely surprised.

    Smut, smut, and double smut. Totally unacceptable. May I remind you that there used to be fairly strict laws in the US on what one could and could not consume for visual consumption? Truly don't know what to make of this....this....type of visual stimulation.

    Props though for posting Ava. Now there was a true beauty. Could easily have played Delilah in DeMille's Samson and Delilah, hands down.

    It’s Joanne Dru, dear fellow.”

    Uh, yes, and that was sarcasm, Katherine.

    Thank God…..For a moment there I thought that you were truly benighted…..

    “You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon….”

    And I suppose its only natural that you forgot to mention her role as the double love interest in Broderick Crawford’s tour de force All the King’s Men. Apparently by your reckoning that long forgotten film isn’t worth all that much either.

    Didn’t feel like posting her entire CV, dear fellow…..

    Smut, smut, and double smut. Totally unacceptable. May I remind you that there used to be fairly strict laws in the US on what one could and could not consume for visual consumption? Truly don’t know what to make of this….this….type of visual stimulation.

    A reminder of the what the world was like pre-Kardashian:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Considering that Miss. Dru didn't appear in that many iconic films fondly recalled from that era, one that won the Oscar for Best Picture is by automatic definition supposed to be at the top of her resume.

    I assume that these are taken from your personal collection. And where pray tell is the likes of Olivia DeHavilland; nor let us overlook Brigette Bardot; Ursula Andress. Would also throw Rita Hayworth into the mix. Put the blame on Mame, boys. What a stacked, smoldering, sizzling, sensual body, and long length beautiful hair.

    How you cannot remember Rita, one of the icons of that era is simply baffling.

    Another beauty though not quite remembered today would be Ella Raines. There is a special word for beauty, and Ella definitely had it.

    Whether or not Kim Novak had "it" I will leave up to others to decide.

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  285. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film……"

    Yes, but sometimes its better when Wiki says it. Although its best not to quote TOO much from Wiki, as it then becomes a rather lowbrow, down market thing to do.


    "Mae West, another grotesque abomination…..She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd…."

    Now that's a snobbish insult of Mae. German-Irish, she was the late Victorian ideal type of woman, an example of new America post-Civil War. Ms. West would never have gone for the likes of Kardashians, as: 1. She tended to see through the phonies and frauds. 2. Understood never to cross a certain line in dealing with the opposite sexes. And unlike the waif like butchette, Mae West was quite a visually interesting woman in her own right and for her own time.

    "The Cala lillies are out in bloom, really they are."

    No, they are NOT. And certainly not from one such as THAT.


    "I just can’t set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc"

    Come, come now. You forgot to include Shane, as well as The Plainsman in that category. Neither film should be relegated to the 'etc'.


    "Dunno. Could he have conjured the “Hollywood Gothic” atmosphere that the script requires….."

    Uh, yes, yes, he could. His They Drive By Night has a goth realism that was quite unique for WB in 1940. Underrated and a bit forgotten, unfortunately. Had he but won for White Heat.

    “Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film……”

    Yes, but sometimes its better when Wiki says it.

    Probably not in this instance…..

    “Mae West, another grotesque abomination…..She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd….”

    Now that’s a snobbish insult of Mae. German-Irish, she was the late Victorian ideal type of woman, an example of new America post-Civil War. Ms. West would never have gone for the likes of Kardashians, as: 1. She tended to see through the phonies and frauds. 2. Understood never to cross a certain line in dealing with the opposite sexes. And unlike the waif like butchette, Mae West was quite a visually interesting woman in her own right and for her own time.

    Snobbery is essential, dear fellow; it keeps the Latinx at bay.

    As for Mae West…..hideous though she was (to look upon her is to retch), she did possesses a quick wit…..If only she she had confined herself to radio and the stage (best heard, not seen)….

    “I just can’t set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc”

    Come, come now. You forgot to include Shane, as well as The Plainsman in that category. Neither film should be relegated to the ‘etc’.

    Not quite up to the level of the others……Although Jack Palance was truly marvelous in Shane

    “Dunno. Could he have conjured the “Hollywood Gothic” atmosphere that the script requires…..”

    Uh, yes, yes, he could. His They Drive By Night has a goth realism that was quite unique for WB in 1940. Underrated and a bit forgotten, unfortunately. Had he but won for White Heat.

    Fine film (Ida Lupino is quite good in it)…..But it doesn’t convince me that Walsh could have handled Sunset Boulevard….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Shane is equal to the Searchers and Red River, hands down. I also momentarily forgot ol' Coop's role in High Noon.

    Alan Ladd should've won for Shane. Palance was fine, but he wasn't all that, also wasn't very long on screen.

    Backstory is that it was pure studio politics. Ladd, a mainstay at Paramount, got tired of his contract and decided to get into independent producing (much as many actors were starting to in early/mid. 50's). Paramount got its revenge by simply attempting to rush Shane out (one of his final films made under his contract with Paramount). Unfortunately for them, it was a massive colossal hit. Then Paramount decided to push for oscar nominations for Van Hefflin, Brandon DeWilde, and Palance, but NOT Ladd. That is ridiculous. Ladd is doing most of the work in the film. Come on.

    Paramount then pushed for one of its contract actors, William Holden, in Stalag 17, and he won. Fine role, but not the equal of Alan Ladd in Shane.

    Allan got a raw deal from that. He should've at least been nominated.

    The Plainsman helped bring back the Western to Hollywood A picture status, it had been regulated to B status for most of the thirties. It also helped convince Ford to make Stagecoach.

    But Alan definitely was given the shaft by not even being nominated for Shane. Come on.

    Walsh would've done just fine. His Pursued ('47) was a noirish western quasi psychological drama. And he definitely knew the silent era inside and out. Would've been an interesting picture with him at the helm.

    Any more smutty pictures you have to show? One would at least hope that Rita is included among them. Also Jennifer Jones and Jean Peters should get honorable mentions.

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  286. I watched All The Kings Men recently. It was pretty good, and Joanne Dru was stunning.

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  287. @syonredux

    It’s Joanne Dru, dear fellow.”

    Uh, yes, and that was sarcasm, Katherine.
     
    Thank God.....For a moment there I thought that you were truly benighted.....

    “You might know her from obscure, virtually unknown films like Red River and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon….”

    And I suppose its only natural that you forgot to mention her role as the double love interest in Broderick Crawford’s tour de force All the King’s Men. Apparently by your reckoning that long forgotten film isn’t worth all that much either.
     
    Didn't feel like posting her entire CV, dear fellow.....

    Smut, smut, and double smut. Totally unacceptable. May I remind you that there used to be fairly strict laws in the US on what one could and could not consume for visual consumption? Truly don’t know what to make of this….this….type of visual stimulation.

     

    A reminder of the what the world was like pre-Kardashian:


    http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12000000/Vivien-Leigh-vivien-leigh-12001641-760-952.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a9/2f/4f/a92f4febe8c71668e0e41d38a6ffda7a.jpg


    https://medias.unifrance.org/medias/157/11/68509/format_page/ingrid-bergman.jpg

    Considering that Miss. Dru didn’t appear in that many iconic films fondly recalled from that era, one that won the Oscar for Best Picture is by automatic definition supposed to be at the top of her resume.

    I assume that these are taken from your personal collection. And where pray tell is the likes of Olivia DeHavilland; nor let us overlook Brigette Bardot; Ursula Andress. Would also throw Rita Hayworth into the mix. Put the blame on Mame, boys. What a stacked, smoldering, sizzling, sensual body, and long length beautiful hair.

    How you cannot remember Rita, one of the icons of that era is simply baffling.

    Another beauty though not quite remembered today would be Ella Raines. There is a special word for beauty, and Ella definitely had it.

    Whether or not Kim Novak had “it” I will leave up to others to decide.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Considering that Miss. Dru didn’t appear in that many iconic films fondly recalled from that era, one that won the Oscar for Best Picture is by automatic definition supposed to be at the top of her resume.
     
    Only if one is foolish enough to think that a Best Picture Oscar is a mark of quality......

    Red River is better than All the King's Men.

    I assume that these are taken from your personal collection. And where pray tell is the likes of Olivia DeHavilland; nor let us overlook Brigette Bardot; Ursula Andress. Would also throw Rita Hayworth into the mix. Put the blame on Mame, boys. What a stacked, smoldering, sizzling, sensual body, and long length beautiful hair.

    How you cannot remember Rita, one of the icons of that era is simply baffling.
     
    You actually want me to post images of every beautiful actress from the Before Times......
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  288. @syonredux

    “Well, I did say that Walsh was a master of the gangster film……”

    Yes, but sometimes its better when Wiki says it.
     
    Probably not in this instance.....

    “Mae West, another grotesque abomination…..She would certainly fit in with the Kardashian crowd….”

    Now that’s a snobbish insult of Mae. German-Irish, she was the late Victorian ideal type of woman, an example of new America post-Civil War. Ms. West would never have gone for the likes of Kardashians, as: 1. She tended to see through the phonies and frauds. 2. Understood never to cross a certain line in dealing with the opposite sexes. And unlike the waif like butchette, Mae West was quite a visually interesting woman in her own right and for her own time.
     
    Snobbery is essential, dear fellow; it keeps the Latinx at bay.

    As for Mae West.....hideous though she was (to look upon her is to retch), she did possesses a quick wit.....If only she she had confined herself to radio and the stage (best heard, not seen)....

    “I just can’t set his films in the genre alongside Red River, The Searchers, Ride Lonesome, Man of the West, etc”

    Come, come now. You forgot to include Shane, as well as The Plainsman in that category. Neither film should be relegated to the ‘etc’.
     
    Not quite up to the level of the others......Although Jack Palance was truly marvelous in Shane

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWnDVW07_1c

    “Dunno. Could he have conjured the “Hollywood Gothic” atmosphere that the script requires…..”

    Uh, yes, yes, he could. His They Drive By Night has a goth realism that was quite unique for WB in 1940. Underrated and a bit forgotten, unfortunately. Had he but won for White Heat.
     
    Fine film (Ida Lupino is quite good in it).....But it doesn't convince me that Walsh could have handled Sunset Boulevard....

    Shane is equal to the Searchers and Red River, hands down. I also momentarily forgot ol’ Coop’s role in High Noon.

    Alan Ladd should’ve won for Shane. Palance was fine, but he wasn’t all that, also wasn’t very long on screen.

    Backstory is that it was pure studio politics. Ladd, a mainstay at Paramount, got tired of his contract and decided to get into independent producing (much as many actors were starting to in early/mid. 50′s). Paramount got its revenge by simply attempting to rush Shane out (one of his final films made under his contract with Paramount). Unfortunately for them, it was a massive colossal hit. Then Paramount decided to push for oscar nominations for Van Hefflin, Brandon DeWilde, and Palance, but NOT Ladd. That is ridiculous. Ladd is doing most of the work in the film. Come on.

    Paramount then pushed for one of its contract actors, William Holden, in Stalag 17, and he won. Fine role, but not the equal of Alan Ladd in Shane.

    Allan got a raw deal from that. He should’ve at least been nominated.

    The Plainsman helped bring back the Western to Hollywood A picture status, it had been regulated to B status for most of the thirties. It also helped convince Ford to make Stagecoach.

    But Alan definitely was given the shaft by not even being nominated for Shane. Come on.

    Walsh would’ve done just fine. His Pursued (’47) was a noirish western quasi psychological drama. And he definitely knew the silent era inside and out. Would’ve been an interesting picture with him at the helm.

    Any more smutty pictures you have to show? One would at least hope that Rita is included among them. Also Jennifer Jones and Jean Peters should get honorable mentions.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Shane is equal to the Searchers and Red River, hands down.
     
    Nah. It's good but not great. It's biggest problem is that it feels over-directed. All those beauty shots....the clouds hanging just so in the sky....And that kid is more than a little annoying.......

    Alan Ladd should’ve won for Shane. Palance was fine, but he wasn’t all that, also wasn’t very long on screen.
     
    Best thing in the film. One of cinema's greatest villains. And it's all done with a handful of scenes.....

    The Plainsman helped bring back the Western to Hollywood A picture status, it had been regulated to B status for most of the thirties. It also helped convince Ford to make Stagecoach.
     
    But Stagecouch is simply the superior film.....

    Walsh would’ve done just fine. His Pursued (’47) was a noirish western quasi psychological drama. And he definitely knew the silent era inside and out. Would’ve been an interesting picture with him at the helm.
     
    Perhaps. It certainly would have been a very different film....
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  289. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    When mortals view a goddess, paeans seem appropriate…..

    or

    A FOOL there was and he made his prayer
    (A Fool as you and I !)
    To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair
     

    In a foolish age, the wise man is taken for a fool......

    You’re right; how could even Kipling have made such a mistake as to consider someone a fool who can recognize that

    the lines of a thoroughbred are visible in even the plainest garb

    as below:

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux
    http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/whistlejacket-george-stubbs.jpg
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  290. @vinteuil

    “If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same”
     
    Those are two utterly brilliant lines.

    Question: HOW exactly does one treat both Triumph and Disaster? Nonchalant, a la “aw, shucks, ’tis no big deal.” In an effete, pissed off mood?

    Perhaps one could get a cue from how President Trump might treat them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "HOW exactly does one treat both Triumph and Disaster?"

    With perfect indifference - as Epictetus advised, and as Cato the Younger (kind of sort of) practiced.

    Stoicism is, of course, hard to live by. And Trump is no Stoic.
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  291. vinteuil says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Question: HOW exactly does one treat both Triumph and Disaster? Nonchalant, a la "aw, shucks, 'tis no big deal." In an effete, pissed off mood?

    Perhaps one could get a cue from how President Trump might treat them.

    “HOW exactly does one treat both Triumph and Disaster?”

    With perfect indifference – as Epictetus advised, and as Cato the Younger (kind of sort of) practiced.

    Stoicism is, of course, hard to live by. And Trump is no Stoic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Oh, or to use a modern day example, like Mr. Spock. Logical, either way.

    No he isn't, but he does have a unique approach to every single emotion, and this makes him more real, and thus more human.
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  292. @vinteuil
    "HOW exactly does one treat both Triumph and Disaster?"

    With perfect indifference - as Epictetus advised, and as Cato the Younger (kind of sort of) practiced.

    Stoicism is, of course, hard to live by. And Trump is no Stoic.

    Oh, or to use a modern day example, like Mr. Spock. Logical, either way.

    No he isn’t, but he does have a unique approach to every single emotion, and this makes him more real, and thus more human.

    Read More
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  293. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Considering that Miss. Dru didn't appear in that many iconic films fondly recalled from that era, one that won the Oscar for Best Picture is by automatic definition supposed to be at the top of her resume.

    I assume that these are taken from your personal collection. And where pray tell is the likes of Olivia DeHavilland; nor let us overlook Brigette Bardot; Ursula Andress. Would also throw Rita Hayworth into the mix. Put the blame on Mame, boys. What a stacked, smoldering, sizzling, sensual body, and long length beautiful hair.

    How you cannot remember Rita, one of the icons of that era is simply baffling.

    Another beauty though not quite remembered today would be Ella Raines. There is a special word for beauty, and Ella definitely had it.

    Whether or not Kim Novak had "it" I will leave up to others to decide.

    Considering that Miss. Dru didn’t appear in that many iconic films fondly recalled from that era, one that won the Oscar for Best Picture is by automatic definition supposed to be at the top of her resume.

    Only if one is foolish enough to think that a Best Picture Oscar is a mark of quality……

    Red River is better than All the King’s Men.

    I assume that these are taken from your personal collection. And where pray tell is the likes of Olivia DeHavilland; nor let us overlook Brigette Bardot; Ursula Andress. Would also throw Rita Hayworth into the mix. Put the blame on Mame, boys. What a stacked, smoldering, sizzling, sensual body, and long length beautiful hair.

    How you cannot remember Rita, one of the icons of that era is simply baffling.

    You actually want me to post images of every beautiful actress from the Before Times……

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Apparently you do have quite a collection. Actually, next time it might be best to post a picture of an actress who didn't have heaping copious amounts of pancake makeup (as in the second/middle picture). Gad, what were they thinking back in those days? Apparently not very much. Mounds and mounds and heaping mounds of pancake. If one wants to eat a pancake, may we suggest going to Denny's? But to see it on an actress's face? Honestly now. Want that actress to look years younger? Apply the pancake and watch the years roll away in the dough.

    "Red River is better than All the King’s Men."

    No it's not, oh yes it is. And so forth. Yawn. Again, this is akin to Clarence vs Mr. Wee's "I know you are but what am I?" back and forth. Oh, here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGWbzUM-y8



    How does one attempt to prove it? By the box office? Both were massive hits. By the Academy Awards? All the King's Men won hands down. And, back in those days, an Academy Award was a very big deal. For the most part (examples do abound, of course), for the most part, the Awards were devoid of politics, a la the various popular culture causes that one finds abounding in Award shows today.
    Studio Politics is entirely different matter.
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  294. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Shane is equal to the Searchers and Red River, hands down. I also momentarily forgot ol' Coop's role in High Noon.

    Alan Ladd should've won for Shane. Palance was fine, but he wasn't all that, also wasn't very long on screen.

    Backstory is that it was pure studio politics. Ladd, a mainstay at Paramount, got tired of his contract and decided to get into independent producing (much as many actors were starting to in early/mid. 50's). Paramount got its revenge by simply attempting to rush Shane out (one of his final films made under his contract with Paramount). Unfortunately for them, it was a massive colossal hit. Then Paramount decided to push for oscar nominations for Van Hefflin, Brandon DeWilde, and Palance, but NOT Ladd. That is ridiculous. Ladd is doing most of the work in the film. Come on.

    Paramount then pushed for one of its contract actors, William Holden, in Stalag 17, and he won. Fine role, but not the equal of Alan Ladd in Shane.

    Allan got a raw deal from that. He should've at least been nominated.

    The Plainsman helped bring back the Western to Hollywood A picture status, it had been regulated to B status for most of the thirties. It also helped convince Ford to make Stagecoach.

    But Alan definitely was given the shaft by not even being nominated for Shane. Come on.

    Walsh would've done just fine. His Pursued ('47) was a noirish western quasi psychological drama. And he definitely knew the silent era inside and out. Would've been an interesting picture with him at the helm.

    Any more smutty pictures you have to show? One would at least hope that Rita is included among them. Also Jennifer Jones and Jean Peters should get honorable mentions.

    Shane is equal to the Searchers and Red River, hands down.

    Nah. It’s good but not great. It’s biggest problem is that it feels over-directed. All those beauty shots….the clouds hanging just so in the sky….And that kid is more than a little annoying…….

    Alan Ladd should’ve won for Shane. Palance was fine, but he wasn’t all that, also wasn’t very long on screen.

    Best thing in the film. One of cinema’s greatest villains. And it’s all done with a handful of scenes…..

    The Plainsman helped bring back the Western to Hollywood A picture status, it had been regulated to B status for most of the thirties. It also helped convince Ford to make Stagecoach.

    But Stagecouch is simply the superior film…..

    Walsh would’ve done just fine. His Pursued (’47) was a noirish western quasi psychological drama. And he definitely knew the silent era inside and out. Would’ve been an interesting picture with him at the helm.

    Perhaps. It certainly would have been a very different film….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "All those beauty shots….the clouds hanging just so in the sky…."

    Like all those ridiculously overdone unnecessary widescreen shots of Monument Valley, hanging in the sky. Not very good to use an argument that can easily be used vs your own position. I'll put it up vs the Searchers anytime. Anytime.


    "Best thing in the film. One of cinema’s greatest villains. And it’s all done with a handful of scenes….."

    That was Stevens' directing. Palance was never all that as an actor, much less a barely competent thespian. Greatest villian? The film isn't called "Wilson". No, among the best things in the picture is when he has to break the news to little Joey, telling him he won't be coming back with him.

    "And mother wants you, I know she does." And the kid as you call him (Tony and Oscar award nominated) slowly begins to figure it out what he just called out to his surrogate father. THAT is great cinema, courtesy of Stevens and DeWilde.

    Another great scene is Shane telling the mother he won't be returning. "Then we'll never see you again?" She asks with hint of desperation. "Never is a long time, Marian." He replies with finality and a hint of acceptance of his fate come whatever it may be.

    Shane not only got a glimpse, but he is shown about to carry on as best he can for the rest of his life, knowing, if he were only on the other side of the law, he could carry her off and be happy. But as he's on the good side, he can't. The brand sticks, and he can't break the mold.

    The one actor who does the most work in the film, drives the story, the narrative, and doesn't get nominated? Ridiculous. Balderdash. One of the best Western Heroes of the 20th century, Shane. Not nominated??

    That's studio politics and that is totally completely unnecessary.

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  295. syonredux says:
    @Anon
    You're right; how could even Kipling have made such a mistake as to consider someone a fool who can recognize that

    the lines of a thoroughbred are visible in even the plainest garb
     
    as below:
    https://data.whicdn.com/images/86125152/original.jpg

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    But that's a counterexample, you know.
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  296. @syonredux

    Considering that Miss. Dru didn’t appear in that many iconic films fondly recalled from that era, one that won the Oscar for Best Picture is by automatic definition supposed to be at the top of her resume.
     
    Only if one is foolish enough to think that a Best Picture Oscar is a mark of quality......

    Red River is better than All the King's Men.

    I assume that these are taken from your personal collection. And where pray tell is the likes of Olivia DeHavilland; nor let us overlook Brigette Bardot; Ursula Andress. Would also throw Rita Hayworth into the mix. Put the blame on Mame, boys. What a stacked, smoldering, sizzling, sensual body, and long length beautiful hair.

    How you cannot remember Rita, one of the icons of that era is simply baffling.
     
    You actually want me to post images of every beautiful actress from the Before Times......

    Apparently you do have quite a collection. Actually, next time it might be best to post a picture of an actress who didn’t have heaping copious amounts of pancake makeup (as in the second/middle picture). Gad, what were they thinking back in those days? Apparently not very much. Mounds and mounds and heaping mounds of pancake. If one wants to eat a pancake, may we suggest going to Denny’s? But to see it on an actress’s face? Honestly now. Want that actress to look years younger? Apply the pancake and watch the years roll away in the dough.

    “Red River is better than All the King’s Men.”

    No it’s not, oh yes it is. And so forth. Yawn. Again, this is akin to Clarence vs Mr. Wee’s “I know you are but what am I?” back and forth. Oh, here.

    How does one attempt to prove it? By the box office? Both were massive hits. By the Academy Awards? All the King’s Men won hands down. And, back in those days, an Academy Award was a very big deal. For the most part (examples do abound, of course), for the most part, the Awards were devoid of politics, a la the various popular culture causes that one finds abounding in Award shows today.
    Studio Politics is entirely different matter.

    Read More
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  297. @syonredux

    Shane is equal to the Searchers and Red River, hands down.
     
    Nah. It's good but not great. It's biggest problem is that it feels over-directed. All those beauty shots....the clouds hanging just so in the sky....And that kid is more than a little annoying.......

    Alan Ladd should’ve won for Shane. Palance was fine, but he wasn’t all that, also wasn’t very long on screen.
     
    Best thing in the film. One of cinema's greatest villains. And it's all done with a handful of scenes.....

    The Plainsman helped bring back the Western to Hollywood A picture status, it had been regulated to B status for most of the thirties. It also helped convince Ford to make Stagecoach.
     
    But Stagecouch is simply the superior film.....

    Walsh would’ve done just fine. His Pursued (’47) was a noirish western quasi psychological drama. And he definitely knew the silent era inside and out. Would’ve been an interesting picture with him at the helm.
     
    Perhaps. It certainly would have been a very different film....

    “All those beauty shots….the clouds hanging just so in the sky….”

    Like all those ridiculously overdone unnecessary widescreen shots of Monument Valley, hanging in the sky. Not very good to use an argument that can easily be used vs your own position. I’ll put it up vs the Searchers anytime. Anytime.

    “Best thing in the film. One of cinema’s greatest villains. And it’s all done with a handful of scenes…..”

    That was Stevens’ directing. Palance was never all that as an actor, much less a barely competent thespian. Greatest villian? The film isn’t called “Wilson”. No, among the best things in the picture is when he has to break the news to little Joey, telling him he won’t be coming back with him.

    “And mother wants you, I know she does.” And the kid as you call him (Tony and Oscar award nominated) slowly begins to figure it out what he just called out to his surrogate father. THAT is great cinema, courtesy of Stevens and DeWilde.

    Another great scene is Shane telling the mother he won’t be returning. “Then we’ll never see you again?” She asks with hint of desperation. “Never is a long time, Marian.” He replies with finality and a hint of acceptance of his fate come whatever it may be.

    Shane not only got a glimpse, but he is shown about to carry on as best he can for the rest of his life, knowing, if he were only on the other side of the law, he could carry her off and be happy. But as he’s on the good side, he can’t. The brand sticks, and he can’t break the mold.

    The one actor who does the most work in the film, drives the story, the narrative, and doesn’t get nominated? Ridiculous. Balderdash. One of the best Western Heroes of the 20th century, Shane. Not nominated??

    That’s studio politics and that is totally completely unnecessary.

    Read More
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  298. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux
    http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/whistlejacket-george-stubbs.jpg

    But that’s a counterexample, you know.

    Read More