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From Jezebel:

‘Is the UVA Rape Story a Gigantic Hoax?’ Asks Idiot
Anna Merlan

Ever since journalist Sabrina Rubin Erdely published her searing Rolling Stone story about “Jackie,” a woman who was allegedly the victim of a gang rape at a frat party at the University of Virginia, there’s been an ongoing and much-needed public conversation about the way rape and sexual assault claims are dealt with on college campuses. But Robby Soave at the libertarian magazine Reason thinks we’re talking about the wrong questions entirely. Shouldn’t we be asking, he wonders, if Jackie just, like, made the whole story up?

Soave writes that Erdely’s story is “not credible,” according to “journalists who contemplate such matters.” Which journalists, exactly? One, to be precise, a guy by the name of Richard Bradley, who writes on his blog that he doesn’t believe the story: “I don’t believe that it happened—certainly not in the way that it is recounted.”

Bradley writes that “something about this story doesn’t feel right.” …’

Soave at Reason—who has previously written that much of the campus sexual assault crisis is just “criminalizing campus sex”—takes Bradley’s giant ball of shit and runs with it. …

In summary, what we have here are two dudes who have some vague suspicions and, on that basis, are implying that Ederley either fabricated her story or failed to do her due diligence and didn’t fact check what Jackie told her. Never mind that she gave a long interview to the Washington Post this weekend about the weeks she spent fact-checking the story. Erdely explains in that interview, too, that she won’t discuss some details about Jackie’s alleged attackers because of an agreement she made with Jackie, who is, she tells the paper “very fearful of these men, in particular Drew. . . . She now considers herself an empty shell. So when it comes down to identifying them, she has a very hard time with that.”

But never mind Erdely’s months of work. Two guys who have no idea what they’re talking about don’t believe it. Case closed.

Correction: A previous version of this post incorrectly said Richard Bradley is retired. In fact, he is the current editor-in-chief of Worth. I regret the error. This is what a professional journalistic correction looks like, in the unlikely event that any editors at Worth or writers at Reason ever need to issue one.

Richard Bradley responds here.

 
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  1. iSteve vs. Jezebel should be done up in 1960s underground comic book style by R. Crumb.

    I’d buy that comic.

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    Hell yeah! R Crumb rocks.
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  2. rivelino says: • Website

    SJWs = SJBs

    bullies!

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  3. OK, I read the WaPo interview. Really, that’s the best they can do? The alleged victim really is named Jackie something or other, and she really was a lifeguard in high school? And we know it’s all true because none of the (unidentified alleged) perpetrators (whom the reporter won’t confirm she even talked to) have denied it?

    The purpose of propaganda isn’t to mislead, it’s to humiliate you into submission by insulting your intelligence. The Washington Post and Rolling Stone are propaganda organs. Therefore, etc.

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  4. This is what a professional journalistic correction looks like, in the unlikely event that any editors at Worth or writers at Reason ever need to issue one.

    That was just sublime!

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  5. Danindc says:

    The level of mental illness shown on Jezebel has only been equaled in Jonestown, Guyana.

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  6. Federale says: • Website

    Because nothing says legitimate like pseudonyms. 100% fake. Name the perpetrators and make arrests. Fake like Crystal Gail Magnum and the false allegations in the Duke Lacrosse lynching.

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  7. Jack D says:

    This is what is known in rhetoric as “appeal to authority”. Erdely was interviewed in the Washington Post, those who doubt her are nobodies, “case closed”. Erdely tells us that she did lots of fact checking which must remain double super secret, but if you doubt her you are a sexist pig and probably a racist too.

    BTW, last time I looked, there was a difference between “I’m not 100% sure this story is true” and “case closed”, but let’s skip over that. Whatever Erdely says must be taken as gospel, because .uh because. Never mind that there are no eye witness who have come forward (other than the accuser), no forensic evidence, lots of details that don’t make any sense (the “shattered glass”), etc. How DARE these nobodies express the slightest doubt!

    Remember when that guy Drudge doubted what the Washington experts were saying (or not saying) about Lewinsky? What a nobody he was too! And those guys in pajamas who doubted the Duke lacrosse rape accusations – what a bunch of nobodies they were too. Next time I hope all the nobodies will know enough to keep their mouths shut and leave it to the experts.

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  8. syonredux says:

    Magazine writer Sabrina Rubin Erdely knew she wanted to write about sexual assaults at an elite university. What she didn’t know was which university.

    So, for six weeks starting in June, Erdely interviewed students from across the country. She talked to people at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and her alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania. None of those schools felt quite right. But one did: the University of Virginia, a public school, Southern and genteel, brimming with what Erdely calls “super-smart kids” and steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson.

    MMMM, so Northern schools like Harvard and Princeton didn’t “feel quite right” but UVA, “Southern and genteel, [.....] steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson” did? Sounds like someone had a narrative in mind

    The 9,000-word story prompted a wave of outrage and revulsion at U-Va., an institution still reeling from the kidnapping and death of another female student, Hannah Graham, in September.

    Who was killed by a Black man named Jesse Matthew, but that kind of crime doesn’t fit the narrative, so lets put that to one side

    Erdely spent weeks corroborating details of Jackie’s account, including such minutiae as her work as a lifeguard. She concluded: “I find her completely credible. It’s impossible to know for certain what happened in that room, because I wasn’t in it. But I certainly believe that she described an experience that was in­cred­ibly traumatic to her.”

    What does her work as a lifeguard have to do with corroborating her rape story?

    Some elements of the story, however, are apparently too delicate for Erdely to talk about now. She won’t say, for example, whether she knows the names of Jackie’s alleged attackers or whether in her reporting she approached “Drew,” the alleged ringleader, for comment. She is bound to silence about those details, she said, by an agreement with Jackie, who “is very fearful of these men, in particular Drew. . . . She now considers herself an empty shell. So when it comes down to identifying them, she has a very hard time with that.”

    But she’s totally OK with talking in great detail about every other aspect of the rape

    The story does take one journalistic shortcut. The alleged assault, described in graphic detail, is presented largely without traditional qualifiers, such as “according to Jackie” or “allegedly.”

    Well, that’s one way to characterize it.Another way would be to call it tabloid journalism

    In any case, there have been no outright denials from any party about the alleged crime Erdely reported,

    Since she hasn’t identified anyone, who is supposed to be issuing denials?

    More problematic, at least to Erdely, was the university’s response, or lack of one, as she investigated Jackie’s story. She says that the university “stonewalled” her repeatedly. Among other things, her requests for statistics about alleged sexual assaults on campus were blocked, as were her inquiries about the university’s policies and procedures for handling such crimes, she said. She also said that university officials cancelled interviews with her, including one as she was about to board a plane to fly to Charlottesville.

    MMM, maybe they could sense that she was planning a hatchet job?

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    The only name she names is U. of Va.
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  9. Wilkey says:

    “But never mind Erdely’s months of work. Two guys who have no idea what they’re talking about don’t believe it. Case closed.”

    The atheist left in a nutshell: Christianity is a made up belief built around enormous, centuries old institutions built on volumes upon volumes of made up doctrine with hundreds of millions of deluded believers..

    However…one woman would never make up a a few pages of bullshit for Rolling Stone Magazine.

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  10. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    It’s Jezebel. Who cares.

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  11. Mr. Blank says:

    Hey, when I clicked on the Reason story that Jezebel linked to, it popped up with this nifty little thing called “donotlink.com.” Apparently it’s a website that allows you to link to a site without boosting its rank on Google.

    Now that there is a handy tool! Is this new, or is it just the first I’m hearing about it? If widely adopted, maybe it could put an end to this ridiculous “clickbait” trend exploited by sites like, you know, Jezebel (and Salon, most notoriously). Nice!

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    • Replies: @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin
    Use archive.today when linking to clickbait it archives the page and doesn't provide clicks like donotlink.com
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  12. Wilkey says:

    “so Northern schools like Harvard and Princeton didn’t “feel quite right” but UVA, “Southern and genteel, [.....] steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson” did? Sounds like someone had a narrative in mind”

    Ya think?

    And well whaddaya know if she didn’t just happen to come across an awesome possum gang rape to write about? Why I’m sure these elite school gang rapes are practically a dime a dozen!

    “In any case, there have been no outright denials from any party about the alleged crime Erdely reported”

    And just who is supposed to be denying this rape? The unnamed perps? The unnamed witnesses? The female, leftist administrators who may actually like the narrative? Does anyone think that Gov. Terry McAuliffe is going to fight Rolling Stone to defend UVA’s honor?

    The claims being made in the article are huge and damaging. The alleged victims should have to put up or shut up. This is not the first time an elite Southern school has been tarred by bullshit allegations of gang rape.

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  13. Wilkey says:

    The “Jackie” case is the perfect case around which to build claims of the so-called “rape culture.”

    The alleged victims and perps in the Tawana Brawley and Duke Lacrosse cases were known. The vicitms had to present actual evidence against which the alleged perps could defend themselves by producing evidence, alibis, etc.

    But the “Jackie” case gives us no names, and therefore no way to disprove it. We’re just supposed to assume they’re telling the truth.

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  14. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:

    “The level of mental illness shown on Jezebel has only been equaled in Jonestown, Guyana.”

    It’s a millennial disease.

    There was once a time when a lot of racy things could not be said. So, it took some courage to write a book like Portnoy’s Complaint. So, there arose the fallacious idea that vulgar talk = truth. Actually, most vulgar talk is mundane crap. Saying ‘fuc*’ and ‘vagina’ a million times proves nothing.

    But millennials who grew up on youtube think they are so true and real because they just blurt out whatever dumb shit that pops inside their heads. On sexual matters and etc, it’s ‘let it all hang loose’. It porny and trashy and raw, all done in casual manner. So, that must make them so real.

    It’s like tattoos in the past had meaning. If you served in war and survived, you earned the right to get a tattoo as a kind of prole badge of honor. It signified something. Now, every trashy millenny idiot gets a tattoo or a bunch of them because they they think it’s so cool and natural and casual and all over. But they signify nothing.

    Vulgar or not, people gotta give their views and ideas some thought and develop some kind of argument instead of just blurting them out. That sense of process is what’s missing from millenies.
    Of course, one thing they are very mindful about is PC.

    Just listen to this idiot. Kim Morgan the moron is cringeworthy.

    http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-cinephiliacs/e/36074503?autoplay=true

    This is the stupidest shit I ever read.

    http://sunsetgun.typepad.com/sunsetgun/2013/07/the-love.html

    blah blah blah blah

    blah blah blah blah

    ‘hi guys’ blah blah blah blah

    blah blah blah blah

    blah blah blah blah

    blah blah blah blah

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    • Replies: @gu
    MPC?

    Why do you people hate on Millennials so much?
    , @peterike
    So, it took some courage to write a book like Portnoy’s Complaint.

    Yeah, like the "courage" to come out gay. Publishing that trashy piece of moral rot took less than zero "courage" because Roth knew it would make him infamous. Vulgarity was everywhere in the air -- c'mon, this was three years after Lenny Bruce was dead. Jews were flexing their social and media muscle and learning very fast that the WASP establishment would collapse in a series of massive cave-ins. By the time "Portnoy" was published in 1969 the game was pretty much up.
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  15. Folks have to read Richard Bradley’s rebuttal.

    I’ve never seen anyone describe someone as a mentally deficient sociopath in such a nice, polite and avuncular fashion.

    Sample: “According to her LinkedIn page, Anna Merlan is a 2010 graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism who has also worked at the Dallas Observer, the Village Voice and now Jezebel—a downward trajectory, you might say, but never mind.”

    Don’t bother with Merlan’s article — just go straight to Bradley.

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  16. Ross says:

    If no one is allowed to question anonymous and implausible claims of being raped, then can I just say how I was raped by a marauding gang of Social Justice Warriors when I visited the offices of Jezebel.

    Now don’t be questioning the veracity of my story you shameless white male rape apologists.

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    • Replies: @dcite
    but did you have a good time Ross? Thet's the important thing.
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  17. dearieme says:

    “steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    I admit that the story doesn’t sound plausible to me. But I’ve never raped anyone, or even been tempted to, nor am I familiar with US fraternities, so I don’t suppose my guess is worth much.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Do British universities have fraternities or anything like them?
    , @Luke Lea
    @ dearime - "since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter."

    For the record, as I recall, she did have a choice. When they were together in France, Sally Hennings had to option to remain behind when Jefferson returned to Monticello, but he talked her into coming back with him in return for promises of freedom for some of her relatives when he died. Anyway, they were more or less in love it seems pretty evident to me. They were practically married in the privacy of his home. She was his deceased wife's half-sister, after all, and "mighty white" as they said in those days. She later passed for white, in Maryland (?), after Jefferson died.

    , @syonredux

    “steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.
     
    Certainly the power differential is in his favor.....but feminists tend not to realize that woman find power quite sexy

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?
     
    It's elite, but not nearly as elite as Harvard, or Princeton, or Yale. To put it more bluntly, you don't want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story.

    It's Southern, not Northern; hence, one can attach to it the standard liberal stigmata (slavery, Jim Crow, male chauvinism, etc)

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so. Garry Wills' work provides a useful chart for the shift in opinion. In Inventing America: Jefferson's Declaration of Independence (1978), Wills' is respectful and sympathetic.In Negro President: Jefferson and the Slave Power (2003), he is hostile and condemning .
    , @syonredux
    steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    It’s elite, but not nearly as elite as Harvard, or Princeton, or Yale. To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story.

    It’s Southern, not Northern; hence, one can attach to it the standard liberal stigmata (slavery, Jim Crow, male chauvinism, etc)

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so. Garry Wills’ work provides a useful chart for the shift in opinion. In Inventing America: Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence (1978), Wills’ is respectful and sympathetic.In Negro President: Jefferson and the Slave Power (2003), he is hostile and condemning .
    , @Art Deco
    since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Since when has it been established that he did? The genetic testing was done on descendents of one of Sally Hemings' many children and merely demonstrated that a male Jefferson was an ancestor. It did not identify which male Jefferson.
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  18. Mr. Blank says:

    I, too, had my doubts about that Rolling Stone story, simply because I’ve worked in journalism and I presume that the highly-compensated, highly-experienced editors at Rolling Stone are as ethical and professional as the low-level outfits I’ve worked with throughout my career. No editor I’ve ever worked with would be willing to publish such an incredible story without some extremely compelling proof, even if that proof had to be withheld from publication to protect sources. Every single editor I’ve worked with professionally would have demanded a lot more than just a reporter’s word before running something so sensational.

    Then again, that didn’t stop Stephen Glass. Although considering the shockwaves that Glass sent through the industry, you’d think that would cause editors to be a hell of a lot more cautious.

    It does seem, though, that one of the recurring themes of the past decade has been the failure of our purported elites to demonstrate any compelling link between their credentials and their actual skills and knowledge — hello, President Obama! If this does turn out to be a hoax, I’ll go out on a limb and predict that it will be yet another depressing case where entitled elites were happy to break or bend the rules for each other — rules that they conveniently require everyone else to follow down to the letter.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Blank

    I, too, had my doubts about that Rolling Stone story, simply because I’ve worked in journalism and I presume that the highly-compensated, highly-experienced editors at Rolling Stone are as ethical and professional as the low-level outfits I’ve worked with throughout my career.
     
    My bad; what I meant to write there was:

    "I, too, had my doubts about that Rolling Stone story, but I assumed it must be true simply because I’ve worked in journalism and I presume that the highly-compensated, highly-experienced editors at Rolling Stone are as ethical and professional as the low-level outfits I’ve worked with throughout my career."
    , @Anonymous
    Stephen Glass was 20 years ago. Nothing happened before this babe graduated CSJ.

    My Mom told me, "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is". Dollars to donuts says that his whole thing falls apart.
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  19. @Mr. Blank
    Hey, when I clicked on the Reason story that Jezebel linked to, it popped up with this nifty little thing called "donotlink.com." Apparently it's a website that allows you to link to a site without boosting its rank on Google.

    Now that there is a handy tool! Is this new, or is it just the first I'm hearing about it? If widely adopted, maybe it could put an end to this ridiculous "clickbait" trend exploited by sites like, you know, Jezebel (and Salon, most notoriously). Nice!

    Use archive.today when linking to clickbait it archives the page and doesn’t provide clicks like donotlink.com

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It is blocked by mcafee filter (where I work at least) as under category anonymizing utilities.
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  20. george says:

    On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners. Wall Street Journal suggests visiting Japan.

    Made Better in Japan

    For decades, Japan simply imported the wares of foreign cultures, but recession has led to invention. The country has begun creating the finest American denim, French cuisine and Italian espresso in the world. Now is the time to visit.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204542404577157290201608630

    They forgot to mention Scotch Whiskey.

    Japanese whiskey nabs ‘Best in the World’ title over Scottish brands

    http://nypost.com/2014/11/04/japanese-whiskey-nabs-best-in-the-world-title-over-scottish-brands/

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    • Replies: @peterike
    On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners.

    Indeed! But of course white people could never figure out how to put together the pile of slops that constitute Mexican food, so open borders. And of course whenever you hear about an awesome taco truck or restaurant somewhere doing crazy, wicked good creative things with tacos, it's a couple of white guys. Like Rockaway Taco in Queens (opened by Andrew Field and David Selig).

    Same thing is true for pretty much every non-European cuisine. Any half-baked white culinary school graduate could open an Indian or Chinese place that's ten times better than 95% of the places run by Indians and Chinese. The only separation is at the very, very high end. In other words, yes, let the two or three greatest Chinese chefs move to America, but nobody else.
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  21. Sabrina Rubin Erdely is quite obviously our greatest writer of literary fiction since Janet Cooke, Jayson Blair, and Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    And that “Human Accomplishment” guy what’s-his-name says our civilization is no longer capable of artistic perfection…

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  22. Seamus says:

    The Rolling Stone story was fake but accurate.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The Rolling Stone story was fake but accurate.
     
    I expect this is the case. Meaning, "OK, OK, so it didn't happen THIS time, but evil white boys do it all the time, so it is good we get flipped out about it."

    Like the hate crimes that surface once or twice a year, you get a good two days of hate rallies (Orwell's "Two Minutes Hate") out of the deal.

    But, like the Claremont-McKenna case that Steve reported on ten (10) years ago, if you screw up and actually report the hate crime/rape/whatever to the police, you can get busted for false reporting and lying to the police, which are criminal, as <a href="http://www.academia.org/academic-hate-crime-hoax/"poor Professor Dunn discovered to her great chagrin.

    The Rolling Stone Rapee did not go to the cops, either then or now, since she would have been busted for lying.
    , @ben tillman

    The Rolling Stone story was fake but accurate.
     
    Like the story about Polly Perkins and Rick von Sloneker?
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  23. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Man, I really hope Gamergate folks are successful in their attept at putting Gawker out of businesss so that humanity won’t have to deal with Jezebel garbage anymore. (For those of you don’t know, Jezebel is part of Gawker online publishing company and GamerGate community has been at war with Gawker for several months now)

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  24. Marc says:

    think that a story with that magnitude of allegation cannot be written in a responsible manner with the level of sourcing and verification that Sabrina Rubin Erdely provided — you can never get that back if you are wrong.

    If kids and parents don’t have the willingness to bring the police authorities in for something of that magnitude, they are irresponsible. Their daughter should be out of that school immediately.

    It seems Sabrina Rubin Erdely is acting on a hunch just as much as Jezebel claims you are.

    Leftism is pathological, they never have to reconcile their contradictions to themselves. We waste our time pointing them out, because they are meaningless to the liberal, and everyone else with any common sense doesn’t need to hear us repeating the obvious and evident.

    I don’t know what happened. I do know that Rolling Stone acted irresponsibly by publishing something so terribly sourced and the parents and friends acted irresponsibly if this is real and the police were not brought in immediately.

    I did read the article in its entirety last week since I have senior daughter applying to UVA — and it is thus important for me to understand what is real and not. I found it very frustrating that the article came off as other articles that later proved to be false. My wife and I have discussed our frustration at how fantastical or horrific it seems — depending on actual reality — but not have any way to know at level that is actionable.

    This article sucked because of its unverifiability of allegations that are truly monumental.

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  25. Jim Sweeney says: • Website

    Wouldn’t it be simple to determine the full name of the boyfriend – Drew? How many “Drews” were in attendance at UVA that semester and part of that house? It narrows down rather fast doesn’t it?
    And he would be able to ID the others alleged to have been involved. That seems to make the author’s boast of heavy-duty fact checking seem rather thin gruel.

    What truly amazes me is the utter lack of interest by the “victim” in prosecuting the case within the legal system. That, to me, casts serious doubt on her allegations.

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  26. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @dearieme
    "steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    I admit that the story doesn't sound plausible to me. But I've never raped anyone, or even been tempted to, nor am I familiar with US fraternities, so I don't suppose my guess is worth much.

    Do British universities have fraternities or anything like them?

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    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club

    The club uniform is magnificently stupid, requiring the outlay of thousands of pounds for a garishly useless, custom-made swallowtail coat.

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  27. Jefferson says:

    Jezebel is the same site where all of the Black female readers claim that they get catcalled by White guys on a daily basis.

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    • Replies: @dcite
    I've lived in the metroplises with large black populations for years, and have NEVER seen white sexually harrass blacks. Blacks do it all the time to whites. The only way a white might ever harrass a black in that way, would be surreptitiously. Or perhaps a really stupid or crazy highschooler. But o the steet, in public places, never.
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  28. Mr. Blank says:
    @Mr. Blank
    I, too, had my doubts about that Rolling Stone story, simply because I've worked in journalism and I presume that the highly-compensated, highly-experienced editors at Rolling Stone are as ethical and professional as the low-level outfits I've worked with throughout my career. No editor I've ever worked with would be willing to publish such an incredible story without some extremely compelling proof, even if that proof had to be withheld from publication to protect sources. Every single editor I've worked with professionally would have demanded a lot more than just a reporter's word before running something so sensational.

    Then again, that didn't stop Stephen Glass. Although considering the shockwaves that Glass sent through the industry, you'd think that would cause editors to be a hell of a lot more cautious.

    It does seem, though, that one of the recurring themes of the past decade has been the failure of our purported elites to demonstrate any compelling link between their credentials and their actual skills and knowledge — hello, President Obama! If this does turn out to be a hoax, I'll go out on a limb and predict that it will be yet another depressing case where entitled elites were happy to break or bend the rules for each other — rules that they conveniently require everyone else to follow down to the letter.

    I, too, had my doubts about that Rolling Stone story, simply because I’ve worked in journalism and I presume that the highly-compensated, highly-experienced editors at Rolling Stone are as ethical and professional as the low-level outfits I’ve worked with throughout my career.

    My bad; what I meant to write there was:

    “I, too, had my doubts about that Rolling Stone story, but I assumed it must be true simply because I’ve worked in journalism and I presume that the highly-compensated, highly-experienced editors at Rolling Stone are as ethical and professional as the low-level outfits I’ve worked with throughout my career.”

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  29. Tiny Duck says:

    I actually don’t mind if this story is fake. Girls having a healthy sexual appetite is a good thing. They need to feed it. However this can be tricky when piece of crap guys force themselves on girls. Only awesome men should be allowed access to women. Stuff like this will dissuade crappy men from looking at girls. Chlorine for the gene pool.

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    • Replies: @gu
    Ted, you've outed yourself as an obvious troll.
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  30. Adam1 says:

    Off topic — Slate: James Watson Throws a Fit

    Watson fundamentally misunderstands research on race, genes, and intelligence. Scientists have been debunking ideas like his since well before The Bell Curve made a mockery of statistical analysis. The latest for-crying-out-loud-do-we have-to-do-this-again moment came this year with the publication of Nicholas Wade’s book Troublesome Inheritance, which Watson blurbed as “a masterful overview of how changes in our respective lineages let us begin to understand how human beings have evolved.” Anthropologists, evolutionary biologists, and pretty much anybody with real expertise explained why the book’s assumptions about race-based traits were wrong—and Wade is much more sophisticated in his thinking than Watson is.

    Yet the Slate writer does not provide a single argument against Wade & Watson’s wrong, wrong, wrong views. Other experts have said they are wrong. That is enough.

    Watson had a major insight 61 years ago about the physical structure of DNA. He is one of the founders of a very important but very specific subset of modern biology, and he devoted most of the rest of his career to the study of cancer biology. But he knows fuck all about history, human evolution, anthropology, sociology, psychology, or any rigorous study of intelligence or race.

    Slate writers know “fuck all” about pretty much everything except lib/prog propaganda.

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    • Replies: @BenjaminL
    That article links to E. O. Wilson's memoir of Watson too...

    https://www.msu.edu/course/lbs/333/fall/wilson.html
    , @Jon
    There's quite a food fight going on in the comments of the James Watson article.

    One occasionally wonders about the longevity of comment systems. Should something come up in the next few years that indisputably proves up certain HBD topics (I know, I know -- a daydream, but indulge me)... will one be able to go back and leave "nanner, nanner" kickers to old comments? One wonders how those on the Left would take that, as their default reaction to no-escape facts is to burst into flames.
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  31. Luke Lea says:
    @syonredux

    Magazine writer Sabrina Rubin Erdely knew she wanted to write about sexual assaults at an elite university. What she didn’t know was which university.

    So, for six weeks starting in June, Erdely interviewed students from across the country. She talked to people at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and her alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania. None of those schools felt quite right. But one did: the University of Virginia, a public school, Southern and genteel, brimming with what Erdely calls “super-smart kids” and steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson.
     
    MMMM, so Northern schools like Harvard and Princeton didn't "feel quite right" but UVA, "Southern and genteel, [.....] steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson" did? Sounds like someone had a narrative in mind

    The 9,000-word story prompted a wave of outrage and revulsion at U-Va., an institution still reeling from the kidnapping and death of another female student, Hannah Graham, in September.
     
    Who was killed by a Black man named Jesse Matthew, but that kind of crime doesn't fit the narrative, so lets put that to one side

    Erdely spent weeks corroborating details of Jackie’s account, including such minutiae as her work as a lifeguard. She concluded: “I find her completely credible. It’s impossible to know for certain what happened in that room, because I wasn’t in it. But I certainly believe that she described an experience that was in­cred­ibly traumatic to her.”
     
    What does her work as a lifeguard have to do with corroborating her rape story?

    Some elements of the story, however, are apparently too delicate for Erdely to talk about now. She won’t say, for example, whether she knows the names of Jackie’s alleged attackers or whether in her reporting she approached “Drew,” the alleged ringleader, for comment. She is bound to silence about those details, she said, by an agreement with Jackie, who “is very fearful of these men, in particular Drew. . . . She now considers herself an empty shell. So when it comes down to identifying them, she has a very hard time with that.”
     
    But she's totally OK with talking in great detail about every other aspect of the rape

    The story does take one journalistic shortcut. The alleged assault, described in graphic detail, is presented largely without traditional qualifiers, such as “according to Jackie” or “allegedly.”
     
    Well, that's one way to characterize it.Another way would be to call it tabloid journalism

    In any case, there have been no outright denials from any party about the alleged crime Erdely reported,
     
    Since she hasn't identified anyone, who is supposed to be issuing denials?

    More problematic, at least to Erdely, was the university’s response, or lack of one, as she investigated Jackie’s story. She says that the university “stonewalled” her repeatedly. Among other things, her requests for statistics about alleged sexual assaults on campus were blocked, as were her inquiries about the university’s policies and procedures for handling such crimes, she said. She also said that university officials cancelled interviews with her, including one as she was about to board a plane to fly to Charlottesville.
     
    MMM, maybe they could sense that she was planning a hatchet job?

    The only name she names is U. of Va.

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    • Replies: @ben tillman

    The only name she names is U. of Va.
     
    And Phi Psi. But it's like every other story chosen for mass distribution. The real purpose is to convey a sense of collective guilt. In this case the collectively guilty are Phi Psi brothers. Greeks more generally, men, and especially White men.
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  32. Foseti says: • Website

    Skepticism of the Rolling Stone story hits the Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/articles/bret-stephens-uva-ferguson-and-media-failure-1417478164

    This is getting interesting.

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  33. This country has a huge supply of people who are mental cases but yet can come across as rational and reasonable sounding. UFO abductees are available to tell their true stories of alien love. Years back they had child ritual murder and sex abuse rings being run by witches who were multi-generational. People have claimed to have been raped in bizarre ceremonies with presidents and powerful individuals in attendance. Strange and amazing tales laid out in lurid detail.
    It always involves sex of some variety or other though, doesn’t it?

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  34. monkeys says:

    This tumblr post by Sean Tejaratchi remains the perfect encapsulation of Jezebel:

    http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/image/49200517952

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  35. Luke Lea says:
    @dearieme
    "steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    I admit that the story doesn't sound plausible to me. But I've never raped anyone, or even been tempted to, nor am I familiar with US fraternities, so I don't suppose my guess is worth much.

    @ dearime – “since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.”

    For the record, as I recall, she did have a choice. When they were together in France, Sally Hennings had to option to remain behind when Jefferson returned to Monticello, but he talked her into coming back with him in return for promises of freedom for some of her relatives when he died. Anyway, they were more or less in love it seems pretty evident to me. They were practically married in the privacy of his home. She was his deceased wife’s half-sister, after all, and “mighty white” as they said in those days. She later passed for white, in Maryland (?), after Jefferson died.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    How can we imagine any woman falling in love with Thomas Jefferson?
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  36. dcite says:
    @Ross
    If no one is allowed to question anonymous and implausible claims of being raped, then can I just say how I was raped by a marauding gang of Social Justice Warriors when I visited the offices of Jezebel.

    Now don't be questioning the veracity of my story you shameless white male rape apologists.

    but did you have a good time Ross? Thet’s the important thing.

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  37. WhatEvvs [AKA "Bemused"] says:

    Jesse Matthews might be linked to as many as 10 violent crimes:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/suspect-hannah-graham-disappearance-va-officials-cold-cases-article-1.1959882

    Yes, this Rolling Stone article is awfully conveniently timed.

    I hate Jann Wenner.

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  38. @Luke Lea
    @ dearime - "since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter."

    For the record, as I recall, she did have a choice. When they were together in France, Sally Hennings had to option to remain behind when Jefferson returned to Monticello, but he talked her into coming back with him in return for promises of freedom for some of her relatives when he died. Anyway, they were more or less in love it seems pretty evident to me. They were practically married in the privacy of his home. She was his deceased wife's half-sister, after all, and "mighty white" as they said in those days. She later passed for white, in Maryland (?), after Jefferson died.

    How can we imagine any woman falling in love with Thomas Jefferson?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Not just the women. John Adams details pretty graphically his trysts with "Jumbo Jefferson" in his memoirs.
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  39. dcite says:
    @Jefferson
    Jezebel is the same site where all of the Black female readers claim that they get catcalled by White guys on a daily basis.

    I’ve lived in the metroplises with large black populations for years, and have NEVER seen white sexually harrass blacks. Blacks do it all the time to whites. The only way a white might ever harrass a black in that way, would be surreptitiously. Or perhaps a really stupid or crazy highschooler. But o the steet, in public places, never.

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  40. What do you suppose would happen if Erdely herself went on TV tomorrow and said she made the whole thing up?

    I’ll answer that for you: there would be a very terse correction in the WaPo followed by an article claiming that because so many people believed it, it goes to prove that things like this really happen all the time at fraternity houses at the college your daughter goes to. If it was really that outlandish, we wouldn’t have printed it and you wouldn’t have believed it, right? Also, racism.

    There is no such thing as bad publicity. All you have to do is get the issue on the agenda. Don’t you people remember sludge, acid rain, alar, killer bees and cancer from cell phones? They could have half the country hysterical because blue jeans are dyed with indigo and ANIMALS WHO EAT INDIGO ARE POISONED!!!1!!. People are not only gullible, they seem to have a deep need to be upset over something.

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  41. Ace says:

    In any case, there have been no outright denials from any party about the alleged crime Erdely reported

    ^ That is so stupid, only a Jezebel author could come up with it.

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  42. Hoping y’all don’t mind me linking to my old blog …

    I did an interview with a woman who really was raped on campus back in the ’70s. There was an investigation, a trial and a conviction. Notice how different her account is than the UVa one. Even granting that many years have passed, her account is honest and blunt without veering off into the kind of hallucinatory melodrama the Rolling Stone article foregrounded. Everything about my interviewee’s account says “likely and plausible.” Everything about the RS account says “largely fabricated with possibly some small basis in reality.” IMHO, of course.

    Part one.

    Part two.

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    • Replies: @NOTA
    Our college newspaper published a first person account of a rape, when I was in school there many years ago. I have no way of knowing how well it was fact-checked, but it was also unspectacular and extremely credible sounding.
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  43. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    "steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    I admit that the story doesn't sound plausible to me. But I've never raped anyone, or even been tempted to, nor am I familiar with US fraternities, so I don't suppose my guess is worth much.

    “steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that woman find power quite sexy

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    It’s elite, but not nearly as elite as Harvard, or Princeton, or Yale. To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story.

    It’s Southern, not Northern; hence, one can attach to it the standard liberal stigmata (slavery, Jim Crow, male chauvinism, etc)

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so. Garry Wills’ work provides a useful chart for the shift in opinion. In Inventing America: Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence (1978), Wills’ is respectful and sympathetic.In Negro President: Jefferson and the Slave Power (2003), he is hostile and condemning .

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  44. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    "steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    I admit that the story doesn't sound plausible to me. But I've never raped anyone, or even been tempted to, nor am I familiar with US fraternities, so I don't suppose my guess is worth much.

    steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    It’s elite, but not nearly as elite as Harvard, or Princeton, or Yale. To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story.

    It’s Southern, not Northern; hence, one can attach to it the standard liberal stigmata (slavery, Jim Crow, male chauvinism, etc)

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so. Garry Wills’ work provides a useful chart for the shift in opinion. In Inventing America: Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence (1978), Wills’ is respectful and sympathetic.In Negro President: Jefferson and the Slave Power (2003), he is hostile and condemning .

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    "To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story."

    That had occurred to me. I must be becoming a dreadful cynic.

    "Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy": Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn't overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens. What a lovely chap he was.

    "As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so": and very sensible too. The man was a scoundrelly huckster. The best of them was Washington.
    , @IBC

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so.

     

    I think that Thomas Jefferson still has many admirers, however you're right in that it's now a virtual requirement that any discussion about his life or work includes a strong statement about his hypocritical attitudes on slavery. Since he is known especially for penning that famous line from the Declaration of Independence that "all men are created equal," an honest attempt to understand his attitude on this is actually important provided it doesn't dominate all the discussion about him.

    A few months ago, there was an episode of On Point (A show on NPR, out of Boston) where they discussed Thomas Jefferson's presidential style. The guest was Jon Meacham, an historian and the former editor of Newsweek. Fairly late in the show, Tom Ashbrook (who is actually a pretty astute and talented host in most cases) gave the prerequisite moral admonishment about Jefferson and slavery. In his response, Meacham did not mirror Ashbrook's morally emphatic tone, but instead continued on with his usual interested but at the same time disinterested manner of speaking. He accepted criticism of Jefferson but put his hypocritical attitudes on race in the context of his other inconsistancies and even argued that Jefferson the Founding Father, would have never existed without the institution of slavery. I don't think Meacham was trying to score points with either liberals or conservatives. And while I'm sure that Meacham has a deep interest in Jefferson, this wasn't hero worship or an attack on false idols either. He was just trying to explain Jefferson's perspective and how that related to the world in which he lived as well as how it might be relevant to us today.

    I'm recounting this because I think that it's a good example of a good substantive discussion in a public forum (a call in radio show), where a potentially controversial issue was addressed but didn't end up dominating the discussion. If people want that sort of discussion, it's still available given the right moderators and participants. By the way, Meacham's book is called Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power. I haven't read it but it seems like it might offer some good examples of the "who/whom" principle, e.g. the Louisiana Purchase.

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  45. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:

    Why won’t the rapists be identified? Black?

    Was the police contacted?

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  46. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:

    Journalists fish for Big Story news.

    Instead of netting what’s out there, they fish for the story that is preferred by the news market.

    Imagine a news market wants pikes but you keep catching perches and bullheads. Suppose you catch 10 perches and 20 bullheads everyday. But they are not favored, so you toss them back in.
    Finally, after a full month, you catch a pike. You sell it to the market, and market creates the impression that the pond is filled with pikes.

    Suppose the news market wants ‘whites rape black girl’ story at a college. So, you go looking for such news stories. There’s a bunch about blacks-raping-whites stories, but that’s not what the news market wants. So, you reject such stories, and you look and look, and when something like Duke Lacrosse case comes along, you claim you caught the biggest pike of them all.
    But it turns out to be a tire.

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  47. TWS says:
    @Shouting Thomas
    iSteve vs. Jezebel should be done up in 1960s underground comic book style by R. Crumb.

    I'd buy that comic.

    Hell yeah! R Crumb rocks.

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  48. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    Suppose the news market wants ‘whites rape black girl’ story at a college.

    Actually, that’s not what the market wants. They know that it is highly unlikely.

    The market actually wants information about which groups are more dangerous and likely to let fly with an AK47 at a bus so they can stay away from such people and escape from residential areas where such people live.

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    • Replies: @NOTA
    News is mostly not about information, it's about entertainment and learning what the smart, informed people are talking about. If most people wanted high quality information about the world in their news, newspapers and TV news would look radically different--more like technical podcasts or blog articles describing research papers.
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  49. – Dealing with U.S. black feminists who constantly talk about white male rape during slavery is like dialoguing with Afro-centrists who believe that the ancient Egyptians were black, the ancient Lebanese/Syrians/Iranians were black, the ancient Arabs were black, the ancient Greeks/Italians were black, and let me guess, who else is, or was, somehow part of their low-achieving miserable existence? Misery sure loves company.

    It’s like Oprah Winfrey’s movie, the Butler. The reality is that the Butler’s real name is Eugene Allen. Here is where the movie rewrote history: he did NOT have a son who died in Vietnam, he did NOT have a son who became a Black Panther, his mother was NO raped by a white cotton field manager, and his father was NOT murdered by the same white man.

    U.S. black feminists who read and write in Jezebel are completely delusional if they think the U.S.A. was ever Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic on a smaller scale, or at worst, Brazil, at a much larger scale. They need to open their eyes, and read actual accounts of vast miscegenation between black female slaves and Portuguese Conquistadores in Brazil.

    The descendants from these unions, the mulattos, the quadroons and the octoroons, don’t live a life of wealth, happiness and equality in the Caribbean. They dislike themselves and live a bad life. Brazil has become a caste type society, just like India.

    Most black female slaves in the U.S.A. were truly desexualized overworked creatures, and most of them didn’t marry nor bear the children of wealthy Western European slave masters. In addition, most didn’t marry nor bear the mulatto children of working-class and middle-class immigrants from Europe either. Most were under segregation and really, their wishes is nothing more than a romance porn novel. A male relative of Thomas Jefferson fathered the child, not him. It’s like they’re power-tripping in order to empower themselves.

    The whole Sally Hemming and Thomas Jefferson love affair is a myth, propagated by desperate U.S. black feminists who want to upgrade their status, insert themselves in U.S. history (really, rewrite to make themselves more important than they ever really were), dislike their matriarchal world in urban ghettos, which is full of nappy haired, obese, dark brown-skinned people, violent crime, falling educational standards, a feelings-based religion concentrated on the “Word of Faith” prosperity gospel and no middle-class (a small upper-class, and a large underclass, signifying no mean, no average and no middle).

    They don’t really like the truth. I find it interesting where widespread miscegenation with black female slaves was either prohibited, frowned upon, didn’t occur or rare by most cases (e.g. little evidence of family, relationships, children), such as the United States of America and Canada, get the whole false rape accusations, yet it’s completely non-existent in the U.S.A. and Canada. There’s more evidence that in Canada, a person might have Native Amerindian great-great-grandmother than anything else.

    Places full of mestizos in Central-South America, such as Chile, Costa Rica, Colombia, El Salvador, Paraguay, Nicaragua, Mexico, also get the whole false rape accusations of black women who work in Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs), despite the fact that the Spanish Conquistadores these clearly preferred the Native Amerindian girls.

    Reading Jezebel is a pain the neck. The name, “Jezebel”, is an appropriate name for that repulsive website. It abounds with wicked, shameless women.

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  50. NOTA says:

    There is a funny parallel here between two politically hot stories where questions of fact and desired narratives collide. In one case, a grand jury decision should *not* be trusted as having carefully looked into the facts, but instead the whole matter needs further investigation. In the other, a journalist and her editors *should* be trusted as having looked into the facts, and anyone questioning them is a bad person.

    Obviously, what’s happening here is that the desired narrative is driving peoples’ assumptions about the facts. The problem is, that doesn’t tell us what the facts really are. It’s entirely possible that that cop shot Brown when he was trying to surrender, and that this awful gangrape happened at UVA in pretty much the way it’s described in the article. The fact that there are dishonest people you don’t much like who are willing to bend the truth to claim that those statements are true doesn’t tell you anything about whether they’re true or not. (Similarly, various people with unsavory motives may be trying to bend the truth to claim they’re both false. Again, this doesn’t tell you who’s right.)

    You will never learn anything about the answer to a question of fact by analyzing whose side wins or loses based on the answer.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    "You will never learn anything about the answer to a question of fact by analyzing whose side wins or loses based on the answer."

    You are completely wrong about this. In the post-modern, who/whom world, facts DEPEND on who wins and loses. It's impossible to answer any question without knowing WHO and WHOM. Truth is, like racial, purely a social construct.
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  51. gu says:
    @Tiny Duck
    I actually don't mind if this story is fake. Girls having a healthy sexual appetite is a good thing. They need to feed it. However this can be tricky when piece of crap guys force themselves on girls. Only awesome men should be allowed access to women. Stuff like this will dissuade crappy men from looking at girls. Chlorine for the gene pool.

    Ted, you’ve outed yourself as an obvious troll.

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  52. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:

    Race and rape. Who, whom, right?

    Libs never tire of bitching about THE BIRTH OF A NATION’s scene where a white woman kills herself to preserve her honor from a Negro. Such ‘racist’ and reactionary values!! Such ‘paranoia’ about black men!!
    Shame on the movie.

    But Libs have no problem with the opening of THE GODFATHER where an ethnic father says his daughter did everything to resist the boys to keep her honor. The way he utters ‘honor’ with conviction always moves me.
    She got beaten and nearly killed, but she refused to give up her honor that is central to her family and culture. She was willing to die than be raped. Even libs are moved by that.

    But then, the thugs are presumably waspy types who tried to exploit and abuse an ethnic girl as their sex toy. And it’s deemed NOT ‘paranoid’ or ‘hysterical’ to assume that privileged waspy types would do that to the child of an immigrant(just like HEAVEN’S GATE would have us believe wasps were out to do holocaust on ethno-white immigrants).
    It’s also okay for Vito to send his henchmen to beat them wasp kids into a pulp. Libs say vigilante justice is bad, but they aren’t bothered about what will happen to the wasp boys. And it’s not ‘racist’ to assume that wasps are so eeeeeevil that the entire system would conspire to let the boys get off easy. Wasps all act like cabal(but Jews presumably don’t).

    Who, whom.

    Read More
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  53. NOTA says:
    @Paleo Retiree
    Hoping y'all don't mind me linking to my old blog ...

    I did an interview with a woman who really was raped on campus back in the '70s. There was an investigation, a trial and a conviction. Notice how different her account is than the UVa one. Even granting that many years have passed, her account is honest and blunt without veering off into the kind of hallucinatory melodrama the Rolling Stone article foregrounded. Everything about my interviewee's account says "likely and plausible." Everything about the RS account says "largely fabricated with possibly some small basis in reality." IMHO, of course.

    Part one.

    Part two.

    Our college newspaper published a first person account of a rape, when I was in school there many years ago. I have no way of knowing how well it was fact-checked, but it was also unspectacular and extremely credible sounding.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paleo Retiree
    Thanks for taking a look. I really admired my interviewee for revisiting the event with such honesty and clarity.
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  54. gu says:
    @Priss Factor
    "The level of mental illness shown on Jezebel has only been equaled in Jonestown, Guyana."

    It's a millennial disease.

    There was once a time when a lot of racy things could not be said. So, it took some courage to write a book like Portnoy's Complaint. So, there arose the fallacious idea that vulgar talk = truth. Actually, most vulgar talk is mundane crap. Saying 'fuc*' and 'vagina' a million times proves nothing.

    But millennials who grew up on youtube think they are so true and real because they just blurt out whatever dumb shit that pops inside their heads. On sexual matters and etc, it's 'let it all hang loose'. It porny and trashy and raw, all done in casual manner. So, that must make them so real.

    It's like tattoos in the past had meaning. If you served in war and survived, you earned the right to get a tattoo as a kind of prole badge of honor. It signified something. Now, every trashy millenny idiot gets a tattoo or a bunch of them because they they think it's so cool and natural and casual and all over. But they signify nothing.

    Vulgar or not, people gotta give their views and ideas some thought and develop some kind of argument instead of just blurting them out. That sense of process is what's missing from millenies.
    Of course, one thing they are very mindful about is PC.

    Just listen to this idiot. Kim Morgan the moron is cringeworthy.

    http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-cinephiliacs/e/36074503?autoplay=true

    This is the stupidest shit I ever read.

    http://sunsetgun.typepad.com/sunsetgun/2013/07/the-love.html

    blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp3kzy3eTcU

    blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_aFtKjoQuA

    'hi guys' blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74xIu2wS9mQ

    blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhoEJjPi4es

    blah blah blah blah

    http://youtu.be/Qi74Tzhn3w0

    blah blah blah blah

    http://youtu.be/1x_CvVzBmQY

    MPC?

    Why do you people hate on Millennials so much?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "Why do you people hate on Millennials so much?"

    http://youtu.be/HDNOB6TnHSI?t=1m21s

    Gah!!!!

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-G5_stw6KU0o/TzjSAdPjYHI/AAAAAAAACCE/7EWIPBzDagg/s1600/bomb.jpg

    Where's Moses when we need him?

    http://youtu.be/Id6oS3L-D9A?t=31s

    PS: Tim Cook said god blessed him with fruitiness. So 'God hates fruits' is wrong, but invoking God to say 'god loves fruits' is okay?

    Libs love god as long as he/she/it is just a ad-man for their decrepit agendas.
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  55. NOTA says:
    @The most deplorable one

    Suppose the news market wants ‘whites rape black girl’ story at a college.
     
    Actually, that's not what the market wants. They know that it is highly unlikely.

    The market actually wants information about which groups are more dangerous and likely to let fly with an AK47 at a bus so they can stay away from such people and escape from residential areas where such people live.

    News is mostly not about information, it’s about entertainment and learning what the smart, informed people are talking about. If most people wanted high quality information about the world in their news, newspapers and TV news would look radically different–more like technical podcasts or blog articles describing research papers.

    Read More
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  56. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Mr. Blank
    I, too, had my doubts about that Rolling Stone story, simply because I've worked in journalism and I presume that the highly-compensated, highly-experienced editors at Rolling Stone are as ethical and professional as the low-level outfits I've worked with throughout my career. No editor I've ever worked with would be willing to publish such an incredible story without some extremely compelling proof, even if that proof had to be withheld from publication to protect sources. Every single editor I've worked with professionally would have demanded a lot more than just a reporter's word before running something so sensational.

    Then again, that didn't stop Stephen Glass. Although considering the shockwaves that Glass sent through the industry, you'd think that would cause editors to be a hell of a lot more cautious.

    It does seem, though, that one of the recurring themes of the past decade has been the failure of our purported elites to demonstrate any compelling link between their credentials and their actual skills and knowledge — hello, President Obama! If this does turn out to be a hoax, I'll go out on a limb and predict that it will be yet another depressing case where entitled elites were happy to break or bend the rules for each other — rules that they conveniently require everyone else to follow down to the letter.

    Stephen Glass was 20 years ago. Nothing happened before this babe graduated CSJ.

    My Mom told me, “If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is”. Dollars to donuts says that his whole thing falls apart.

    Read More
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  57. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:
    @gu
    MPC?

    Why do you people hate on Millennials so much?

    “Why do you people hate on Millennials so much?”

    Gah!!!!

    Where’s Moses when we need him?

    PS: Tim Cook said god blessed him with fruitiness. So ‘God hates fruits’ is wrong, but invoking God to say ‘god loves fruits’ is okay?

    Libs love god as long as he/she/it is just a ad-man for their decrepit agendas.

    Read More
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  58. eah says:

    Seems her name is Merlan, not Merlana.

    Reading ‘Jezebel’ is an even bigger waste of time than reading ‘Slate’ (if that’s even possible). Commenting there even more so. It has infinitely large editorial inertia — no outside force ever really seems to influence its direction. It’s a kind of opinion perpetual motion machine — it just keeps going and going and going. More suitable for analogies in an elementary physics class than anything else.

    Read More
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  59. Bill P says:

    Hey, when I clicked on the Reason story that Jezebel linked to, it popped up with this nifty little thing called “donotlink.com.” Apparently it’s a website that allows you to link to a site without boosting its rank on Google.

    -Mr. Blank

    That’s for dummies who don’t know how to use the “nofollow” tag.

    Read More
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  60. Jefferson says:

    “Suppose the news market wants ‘whites rape black girl’ story at a college. So, you go looking for such news stories. There’s a bunch about blacks-raping-whites stories, but that’s not what the news market wants. So, you reject such stories, and you look and look, and when something like Duke Lacrosse case comes along, you claim you caught the biggest pike of them all.
    But it turns out to be a tire.”

    If the news market can not find an actual White guy for a “White male rapes Black women” new story, they will settle for the next best thing which is a Multiracial man who has a European last name and slap the “White” label on him like what happened in Oklahoma City when a half East Asian and half White police officer was labeled by the local Oklahoma City news outlets as “White” after he was accused of raping a bunch of Black women.

    Read More
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  61. peterike says:
    @Priss Factor
    "The level of mental illness shown on Jezebel has only been equaled in Jonestown, Guyana."

    It's a millennial disease.

    There was once a time when a lot of racy things could not be said. So, it took some courage to write a book like Portnoy's Complaint. So, there arose the fallacious idea that vulgar talk = truth. Actually, most vulgar talk is mundane crap. Saying 'fuc*' and 'vagina' a million times proves nothing.

    But millennials who grew up on youtube think they are so true and real because they just blurt out whatever dumb shit that pops inside their heads. On sexual matters and etc, it's 'let it all hang loose'. It porny and trashy and raw, all done in casual manner. So, that must make them so real.

    It's like tattoos in the past had meaning. If you served in war and survived, you earned the right to get a tattoo as a kind of prole badge of honor. It signified something. Now, every trashy millenny idiot gets a tattoo or a bunch of them because they they think it's so cool and natural and casual and all over. But they signify nothing.

    Vulgar or not, people gotta give their views and ideas some thought and develop some kind of argument instead of just blurting them out. That sense of process is what's missing from millenies.
    Of course, one thing they are very mindful about is PC.

    Just listen to this idiot. Kim Morgan the moron is cringeworthy.

    http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-cinephiliacs/e/36074503?autoplay=true

    This is the stupidest shit I ever read.

    http://sunsetgun.typepad.com/sunsetgun/2013/07/the-love.html

    blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp3kzy3eTcU

    blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_aFtKjoQuA

    'hi guys' blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74xIu2wS9mQ

    blah blah blah blah

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhoEJjPi4es

    blah blah blah blah

    http://youtu.be/Qi74Tzhn3w0

    blah blah blah blah

    http://youtu.be/1x_CvVzBmQY

    So, it took some courage to write a book like Portnoy’s Complaint.

    Yeah, like the “courage” to come out gay. Publishing that trashy piece of moral rot took less than zero “courage” because Roth knew it would make him infamous. Vulgarity was everywhere in the air — c’mon, this was three years after Lenny Bruce was dead. Jews were flexing their social and media muscle and learning very fast that the WASP establishment would collapse in a series of massive cave-ins. By the time “Portnoy” was published in 1969 the game was pretty much up.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux
    The '60s collapse in standards was something that many people anticipated.If memory serves, Heinlein wrote Stranger in a Strange Land and then stuck it in a drawer, waiting for the moment when social mores would allow its publication.Appropriately enough, it was finally published in 1961.

    Roth's career reflects the pace of decay in American society; just compare the stories collected in Goodbye, Columbus (1959) to Portnoy's Complaint, published just ten years later in 1969.
    , @Priss Factor
    "Publishing that trashy piece of moral rot took less than zero “courage” because Roth knew it would make him infamous."

    I disagree. Had it been badly written, it would have been a disaster. The material was redeemed through the insightful and witty telling. Also, it was courageous for presenting Jews with warts and all.
    Also, Roth didn't hide the Jewish content of his story as Miller and Salinger had done.
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  62. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    How can we imagine any woman falling in love with Thomas Jefferson?

    Not just the women. John Adams details pretty graphically his trysts with “Jumbo Jefferson” in his memoirs.

    Read More
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  63. peterike says:
    @george
    On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners. Wall Street Journal suggests visiting Japan.

    Made Better in Japan

    For decades, Japan simply imported the wares of foreign cultures, but recession has led to invention. The country has begun creating the finest American denim, French cuisine and Italian espresso in the world. Now is the time to visit.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204542404577157290201608630

    They forgot to mention Scotch Whiskey.

    Japanese whiskey nabs ‘Best in the World’ title over Scottish brands

    http://nypost.com/2014/11/04/japanese-whiskey-nabs-best-in-the-world-title-over-scottish-brands/

    On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners.

    Indeed! But of course white people could never figure out how to put together the pile of slops that constitute Mexican food, so open borders. And of course whenever you hear about an awesome taco truck or restaurant somewhere doing crazy, wicked good creative things with tacos, it’s a couple of white guys. Like Rockaway Taco in Queens (opened by Andrew Field and David Selig).

    Same thing is true for pretty much every non-European cuisine. Any half-baked white culinary school graduate could open an Indian or Chinese place that’s ten times better than 95% of the places run by Indians and Chinese. The only separation is at the very, very high end. In other words, yes, let the two or three greatest Chinese chefs move to America, but nobody else.

    Read More
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  64. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Seamus
    The Rolling Stone story was fake but accurate.

    The Rolling Stone story was fake but accurate.

    I expect this is the case. Meaning, “OK, OK, so it didn’t happen THIS time, but evil white boys do it all the time, so it is good we get flipped out about it.”

    Like the hate crimes that surface once or twice a year, you get a good two days of hate rallies (Orwell’s “Two Minutes Hate“) out of the deal.

    But, like the Claremont-McKenna case that Steve reported on ten (10) years ago, if you screw up and actually report the hate crime/rape/whatever to the police, you can get busted for false reporting and lying to the police, which are criminal, as <a title=”"http://www.academia.org/academic-hate-crime-hoax/"poor&#8221; href="http://www.academia.org/academic-hate-crime-hoax/"poor Professor Dunn discovered to her great chagrin.

    The Rolling Stone Rapee did not go to the cops, either then or now, since she would have been busted for lying.

    Read More
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  65. BenjaminL says:
    @Adam1
    Off topic — Slate: James Watson Throws a Fit

    Watson fundamentally misunderstands research on race, genes, and intelligence. Scientists have been debunking ideas like his since well before The Bell Curve made a mockery of statistical analysis. The latest for-crying-out-loud-do-we have-to-do-this-again moment came this year with the publication of Nicholas Wade’s book Troublesome Inheritance, which Watson blurbed as “a masterful overview of how changes in our respective lineages let us begin to understand how human beings have evolved.” Anthropologists, evolutionary biologists, and pretty much anybody with real expertise explained why the book’s assumptions about race-based traits were wrong—and Wade is much more sophisticated in his thinking than Watson is.
     
    Yet the Slate writer does not provide a single argument against Wade & Watson's wrong, wrong, wrong views. Other experts have said they are wrong. That is enough.

    Watson had a major insight 61 years ago about the physical structure of DNA. He is one of the founders of a very important but very specific subset of modern biology, and he devoted most of the rest of his career to the study of cancer biology. But he knows fuck all about history, human evolution, anthropology, sociology, psychology, or any rigorous study of intelligence or race.
     
    Slate writers know “fuck all" about pretty much everything except lib/prog propaganda.

    That article links to E. O. Wilson’s memoir of Watson too…

    https://www.msu.edu/course/lbs/333/fall/wilson.html

    Read More
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  66. iSteveFan says:

    Indeed! But of course white people could never figure out how to put together the pile of slops that constitute Mexican food, so open borders.

    You’ll note that Rick Bayless is arguably among the best Mexican cuisine chefs in the USA. The guy spent some time there during his college years, learned the language and the culture, and imported the cuisine back to Chicago. I am surprised more SWPLs don’t do this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I've been going to Thai restaurants since 1983. Unlike most restaurants in the U.S., they haven't improved much. That's because they are run by people who aren't particularly interested in food, they are interested in living in America.
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  67. @iSteveFan

    Indeed! But of course white people could never figure out how to put together the pile of slops that constitute Mexican food, so open borders.
     
    You'll note that Rick Bayless is arguably among the best Mexican cuisine chefs in the USA. The guy spent some time there during his college years, learned the language and the culture, and imported the cuisine back to Chicago. I am surprised more SWPLs don't do this.

    I’ve been going to Thai restaurants since 1983. Unlike most restaurants in the U.S., they haven’t improved much. That’s because they are run by people who aren’t particularly interested in food, they are interested in living in America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I'm surprised you've been going to Thai places that long. Thai food only became trendy relatively recently. I don't recall seeing Thai places on the East Coast even in the 90s. I'm sure they were around but generally you didn't find them on the East Coast unless you were seeking them out, and you weren't usually seeking them out because it wasn't trendy then. I imagine they were more common in LA back then relative to the East Coast. But what about Chicago? Were there lots of Thai places in Chicago back then?
    , @Art Deco
    Try Erawan outside of Syracuse.
    , @Jack D
    The reason American Thai restaurants are mediocre is because the customers are mostly white. There aren't enough Thai people in America to sustain most Thai restaurants. The vast improvement in Chinese restaurants in big cities in America (from "chop suey" to very authentic) has come about because there is a large Chinese customer base to keep the chefs honest. In areas where there still aren't many Chinese, it's still mostly slop.
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  68. terrapin gape writes:

    And it’s deemed NOT ‘paranoid’ or ‘hysterical’ to assume that privileged waspy types would do that to the child of an immigrant(just like HEAVEN’S GATE would have us believe wasps were out to do holocaust on ethno-white immigrants).

    –Since I’m a huge fan of “Heaven’s Gate”, I’ll point out that, if you look very carefully, the local “merchants” among the immigrants sell them out. In the end credits, some of these guys are identified as “German”, but I wonder about that.

    I guess Kristofferson’s Averill’s siding with the immigrants is a classic Auster-style liberal trifecta (Good Liberal against Bad Whites to lead/protect proletariat masses); but in “Heaven’s Gate”s case those immigrant masses at least ARE white. And rich Harvard elite types are certainly no longer on America’s side, whether they’re WASPs or otherwise.

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn. Pauline Kael compared Cimino’s tracking shots to the music of Bruckner and Mahler (yes, I know, but–), and THAT wouldn’t do either.

    And Coppola’s “One from the heart”– probably wasn’t going to do box office like “Gigi”, but Francis was trying to run his own studio. Maybe THAT just wouldn’t do . . . .

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn. Pauline Kael compared Cimino’s tracking shots to the music of Bruckner and Mahler (yes, I know, but–), and THAT wouldn’t do either.
     
    I suspect that some of it was a delayed realization regarding the political-aesthetic values surrounding The Deer Hunter; in its attitudes towards social rituals (cf the wedding and hunting sequences), military service, and love of country (cf the "God Bless America " scene), the film is positively Burkean. Indeed, allowing for generational shifts, it's the kind of film that John Ford might have made, had he been born in 1939 and not 1894.

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.
    , @Priss Factor
    "Since I’m a huge fan of 'Heaven’s Gate', I’ll point out that, if you look very carefully, the local “merchants” among the immigrants sell them out."

    All cinematography and no script.

    I wonder if the Hell Gate orphanage in GANGS OF NEW YORK--similarly ambitious work--was an homage to Cimino's film.
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  69. slumber_j says:
    @Anonymous
    Do British universities have fraternities or anything like them?

    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club

    The club uniform is magnificently stupid, requiring the outlay of thousands of pounds for a garishly useless, custom-made swallowtail coat.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A drunken riot by a stand-in for the Bullingdon Club sets in motion by Evelyn Waugh's first novel "Decline and Fall."
    , @syonredux

    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:
     
    Princeton banned fraternities until the 1980s, and, in response, the students developed eating clubs that are analogous to the Bullingdon Club:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_clubs_at_Princeton_University

    F. Scott Fitzgerald was a member of the University Cottage Club, and he devotes a good chunk of This Side of Paradise (his debut novel) to describing the Princeton Eating Clubs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Cottage_Club
    , @dearieme
    "A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford ..." Correction: the sole famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford.
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  70. @slumber_j
    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club

    The club uniform is magnificently stupid, requiring the outlay of thousands of pounds for a garishly useless, custom-made swallowtail coat.

    A drunken riot by a stand-in for the Bullingdon Club sets in motion by Evelyn Waugh’s first novel “Decline and Fall.”

    Read More
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  71. syonredux says:
    @peterike
    So, it took some courage to write a book like Portnoy’s Complaint.

    Yeah, like the "courage" to come out gay. Publishing that trashy piece of moral rot took less than zero "courage" because Roth knew it would make him infamous. Vulgarity was everywhere in the air -- c'mon, this was three years after Lenny Bruce was dead. Jews were flexing their social and media muscle and learning very fast that the WASP establishment would collapse in a series of massive cave-ins. By the time "Portnoy" was published in 1969 the game was pretty much up.

    The ’60s collapse in standards was something that many people anticipated.If memory serves, Heinlein wrote Stranger in a Strange Land and then stuck it in a drawer, waiting for the moment when social mores would allow its publication.Appropriately enough, it was finally published in 1961.

    Roth’s career reflects the pace of decay in American society; just compare the stories collected in Goodbye, Columbus (1959) to Portnoy’s Complaint, published just ten years later in 1969.

    Read More
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  72. Jefferson says:

    “On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners.”

    Yeah you can find a restaurant or bakery in Tokyo that serves Cannoli.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    “On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners.”

    But must they put corn on pizza?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBfhI1Jpw6A
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  73. syonredux says:
    @Lucius Somesuch
    terrapin gape writes:

    And it’s deemed NOT ‘paranoid’ or ‘hysterical’ to assume that privileged waspy types would do that to the child of an immigrant(just like HEAVEN’S GATE would have us believe wasps were out to do holocaust on ethno-white immigrants).
     
    --Since I'm a huge fan of "Heaven's Gate", I'll point out that, if you look very carefully, the local "merchants" among the immigrants sell them out. In the end credits, some of these guys are identified as "German", but I wonder about that.

    I guess Kristofferson's Averill's siding with the immigrants is a classic Auster-style liberal trifecta (Good Liberal against Bad Whites to lead/protect proletariat masses); but in "Heaven's Gate"s case those immigrant masses at least ARE white. And rich Harvard elite types are certainly no longer on America's side, whether they're WASPs or otherwise.

    I've come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. "The Deer Hunter" made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn't do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino's work, you can see the intent) must've prompted visceral scorn. Pauline Kael compared Cimino's tracking shots to the music of Bruckner and Mahler (yes, I know, but--), and THAT wouldn't do either.

    And Coppola's "One from the heart"-- probably wasn't going to do box office like "Gigi", but Francis was trying to run his own studio. Maybe THAT just wouldn't do . . . .

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn. Pauline Kael compared Cimino’s tracking shots to the music of Bruckner and Mahler (yes, I know, but–), and THAT wouldn’t do either.

    I suspect that some of it was a delayed realization regarding the political-aesthetic values surrounding The Deer Hunter; in its attitudes towards social rituals (cf the wedding and hunting sequences), military service, and love of country (cf the “God Bless America ” scene), the film is positively Burkean. Indeed, allowing for generational shifts, it’s the kind of film that John Ford might have made, had he been born in 1939 and not 1894.

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paleo Retiree
    I think there's a chance you may be looking a little too hard for reasons why critics turned on Cimino. I attended the notorious screening of "Heaven's Gate," the one that prompted Vincent Canby's pan in The New York Times, and at intermission people were walking around shellshocked, amazed how at how overblown and bad the film was. I think a lot of people found it to be a talented, coked-out monstrosity. No more complicated than that. Sometimes people just don't enjoy things.
    , @Seneca
    @ syon

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.
     
    Great film IMO...amazing performances from Clint Eastwood (very understated) and Jeff Bridges (filled with pathos).

    @Lucius Somesuch

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn
     
    Good point I always wondered about Cimino's fall from grace. I mean he screws up the budget on one film Heaven's Gate (okay yeah I know ....it was a lot of money) he finds it difficult to make another film again in Hollywood. At the time it sounded strange to me, but maybe they were looking for a reason to deep six him as you suggest. A certain schadenfreude if you will (to reference a recent post by Steve regarding German words). On the other hand, it may be that he is just particularly difficult to work with. His Wiki entry lists numerous projects he has been associated with, but did not end up filming including " The Fountainhead" his dream project. His other dream project is purportedly filming Crime and Punishment, but I don't see how these two books are connected . The list makes for interesting reading however.
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  74. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    I've been going to Thai restaurants since 1983. Unlike most restaurants in the U.S., they haven't improved much. That's because they are run by people who aren't particularly interested in food, they are interested in living in America.

    I’m surprised you’ve been going to Thai places that long. Thai food only became trendy relatively recently. I don’t recall seeing Thai places on the East Coast even in the 90s. I’m sure they were around but generally you didn’t find them on the East Coast unless you were seeking them out, and you weren’t usually seeking them out because it wasn’t trendy then. I imagine they were more common in LA back then relative to the East Coast. But what about Chicago? Were there lots of Thai places in Chicago back then?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I went to a Thai restaurant for the first time before going to see the Gene Hackman movie Uncommon Valor over Christmas 1983 in West Hollywood. A Thai restaurant opened a few blocks from the office in Chicago in, I believe, the spring of 1984. I hosted a lunch for about 20 fellow workers at a Thai restaurant around January 1986. That was the first time I heard about peanut allergies. One lady couldn't eat anything because Thais used peanuts everywhere. She was very nice about it.
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  75. @Anonymous
    I'm surprised you've been going to Thai places that long. Thai food only became trendy relatively recently. I don't recall seeing Thai places on the East Coast even in the 90s. I'm sure they were around but generally you didn't find them on the East Coast unless you were seeking them out, and you weren't usually seeking them out because it wasn't trendy then. I imagine they were more common in LA back then relative to the East Coast. But what about Chicago? Were there lots of Thai places in Chicago back then?

    I went to a Thai restaurant for the first time before going to see the Gene Hackman movie Uncommon Valor over Christmas 1983 in West Hollywood. A Thai restaurant opened a few blocks from the office in Chicago in, I believe, the spring of 1984. I hosted a lunch for about 20 fellow workers at a Thai restaurant around January 1986. That was the first time I heard about peanut allergies. One lady couldn’t eat anything because Thais used peanuts everywhere. She was very nice about it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "One lady couldn’t eat anything because Thais used peanuts everywhere."

    I've always said Thai food is chop suey with peanut butter.
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  76. syonredux says:
    @slumber_j
    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club

    The club uniform is magnificently stupid, requiring the outlay of thousands of pounds for a garishly useless, custom-made swallowtail coat.

    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:

    Princeton banned fraternities until the 1980s, and, in response, the students developed eating clubs that are analogous to the Bullingdon Club:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_clubs_at_Princeton_University

    F. Scott Fitzgerald was a member of the University Cottage Club, and he devotes a good chunk of This Side of Paradise (his debut novel) to describing the Princeton Eating Clubs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Cottage_Club

    Read More
    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Yeah, but the Princeton clubs aren't really the same: nearly all undergraduates belong to one, and they function as substitute dining halls where students eat almost all their meals.

    The Bullingdon meets occasionally, mostly to get blackout-drunk and trash an unsuspecting restaurant. Any "dining" is purely incidental.
    , @Anonymous
    The reason fraternities started back up at Princeton in the 80s is a woman named Sally Frank. The university went coed in 1970. All but 3 of the eating clubs went coed right away. The 3 holdouts were the most prestigious, and we all know how feminists feel about prestigious, all male clubs. Sally Frank sued all 3 in 1979. The first one caved in 86, but the last two made it to 91, when a court forced the issue, and created a new demand for exclusive, male only spaces.

    The feminists are firmly in control of the university now, thanks to recently retired President Shirley Tilghman, so finishing off fraternities is definitely on the agenda. It wouldn't surprise me if the school combined the UVA article with some recent events at Tiger Inn to reach their goal.
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  77. @NOTA
    Our college newspaper published a first person account of a rape, when I was in school there many years ago. I have no way of knowing how well it was fact-checked, but it was also unspectacular and extremely credible sounding.

    Thanks for taking a look. I really admired my interviewee for revisiting the event with such honesty and clarity.

    Read More
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  78. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I went to a Thai restaurant for the first time before going to see the Gene Hackman movie Uncommon Valor over Christmas 1983 in West Hollywood. A Thai restaurant opened a few blocks from the office in Chicago in, I believe, the spring of 1984. I hosted a lunch for about 20 fellow workers at a Thai restaurant around January 1986. That was the first time I heard about peanut allergies. One lady couldn't eat anything because Thais used peanuts everywhere. She was very nice about it.

    “One lady couldn’t eat anything because Thais used peanuts everywhere.”

    I’ve always said Thai food is chop suey with peanut butter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Chinese food has peanuts too though.

    Thai food is more like chop suey with coconut and fragrant flower or plants mixed in.
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  79. @syonredux

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn. Pauline Kael compared Cimino’s tracking shots to the music of Bruckner and Mahler (yes, I know, but–), and THAT wouldn’t do either.
     
    I suspect that some of it was a delayed realization regarding the political-aesthetic values surrounding The Deer Hunter; in its attitudes towards social rituals (cf the wedding and hunting sequences), military service, and love of country (cf the "God Bless America " scene), the film is positively Burkean. Indeed, allowing for generational shifts, it's the kind of film that John Ford might have made, had he been born in 1939 and not 1894.

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.

    I think there’s a chance you may be looking a little too hard for reasons why critics turned on Cimino. I attended the notorious screening of “Heaven’s Gate,” the one that prompted Vincent Canby’s pan in The New York Times, and at intermission people were walking around shellshocked, amazed how at how overblown and bad the film was. I think a lot of people found it to be a talented, coked-out monstrosity. No more complicated than that. Sometimes people just don’t enjoy things.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Cocaine.
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  80. GW says:

    Contrasting the initial Richard Bradley piece with the comments section of the Post article a week later, momentum is clearly building on the side of sanity. People are seeing through what reads like a cartoonishly fictitious event, and many are no longer even hedging their bets, being fine to call the story a complete hoax.

    By my reckoning, here seems to be the media chain which has gotten us to this point: Richard Bradley pens original story doubting events as described. iSteve links story. Reason sees link on iSteve, cites original source Richard Bradley. Talking Points memo (left wing blog) trolling for something to whine about sees Reason piece. This in turn gets picked up by Jezebel, which prompts a response by Bradley.

    The next question is, what is going to be the next piece of evidence? Will RS release any info on the alleged attackers? Will any formal charges be filed? Will the university be forced to commit to a plan of action (either by going after fraternity which shelters gang rapists more strongly or conversely by going after RS/”Jackie” for a ridiculous and damaging bit of fraud), or will it hide in its bureaucratic labyrinth, in fear of litigation and reputation damage?

    Reading some comments in the original RS piece, there may be factual inaccuracies the frat can use. Apparently pledges don’t rush until spring semester at UVA anyway, this event allegedly occurred in the fall. Also another commenter said that during that time there were no Phi Psis who worked at the campus pool, but “Jackie” knew “Drew” because they both worked there. Of course this may be hearsay, but these are the details which can be exposed and probably will be in the coming weeks.

    Read More
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  81. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:
    @Jefferson
    "On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners."

    Yeah you can find a restaurant or bakery in Tokyo that serves Cannoli.

    “On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners.”

    But must they put corn on pizza?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Brutusale
    You sound like Tony Bourdain, flabbergasted when he was served ramen with corn in it in Japan.

    The consensus pick for the best Thai restaurant in America is Pok Pok in Portland and NYC, run by the decidedly non-Thai owner/chef Andy Ricker.
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  82. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:
    @Lucius Somesuch
    terrapin gape writes:

    And it’s deemed NOT ‘paranoid’ or ‘hysterical’ to assume that privileged waspy types would do that to the child of an immigrant(just like HEAVEN’S GATE would have us believe wasps were out to do holocaust on ethno-white immigrants).
     
    --Since I'm a huge fan of "Heaven's Gate", I'll point out that, if you look very carefully, the local "merchants" among the immigrants sell them out. In the end credits, some of these guys are identified as "German", but I wonder about that.

    I guess Kristofferson's Averill's siding with the immigrants is a classic Auster-style liberal trifecta (Good Liberal against Bad Whites to lead/protect proletariat masses); but in "Heaven's Gate"s case those immigrant masses at least ARE white. And rich Harvard elite types are certainly no longer on America's side, whether they're WASPs or otherwise.

    I've come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. "The Deer Hunter" made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn't do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino's work, you can see the intent) must've prompted visceral scorn. Pauline Kael compared Cimino's tracking shots to the music of Bruckner and Mahler (yes, I know, but--), and THAT wouldn't do either.

    And Coppola's "One from the heart"-- probably wasn't going to do box office like "Gigi", but Francis was trying to run his own studio. Maybe THAT just wouldn't do . . . .

    “Since I’m a huge fan of ‘Heaven’s Gate’, I’ll point out that, if you look very carefully, the local “merchants” among the immigrants sell them out.”

    All cinematography and no script.

    I wonder if the Hell Gate orphanage in GANGS OF NEW YORK–similarly ambitious work–was an homage to Cimino’s film.

    Read More
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  83. @Paleo Retiree
    I think there's a chance you may be looking a little too hard for reasons why critics turned on Cimino. I attended the notorious screening of "Heaven's Gate," the one that prompted Vincent Canby's pan in The New York Times, and at intermission people were walking around shellshocked, amazed how at how overblown and bad the film was. I think a lot of people found it to be a talented, coked-out monstrosity. No more complicated than that. Sometimes people just don't enjoy things.

    Cocaine.

    Read More
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  84. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:
    @peterike
    So, it took some courage to write a book like Portnoy’s Complaint.

    Yeah, like the "courage" to come out gay. Publishing that trashy piece of moral rot took less than zero "courage" because Roth knew it would make him infamous. Vulgarity was everywhere in the air -- c'mon, this was three years after Lenny Bruce was dead. Jews were flexing their social and media muscle and learning very fast that the WASP establishment would collapse in a series of massive cave-ins. By the time "Portnoy" was published in 1969 the game was pretty much up.

    “Publishing that trashy piece of moral rot took less than zero “courage” because Roth knew it would make him infamous.”

    I disagree. Had it been badly written, it would have been a disaster. The material was redeemed through the insightful and witty telling. Also, it was courageous for presenting Jews with warts and all.
    Also, Roth didn’t hide the Jewish content of his story as Miller and Salinger had done.

    Read More
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  85. Seneca says:
    @syonredux

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn. Pauline Kael compared Cimino’s tracking shots to the music of Bruckner and Mahler (yes, I know, but–), and THAT wouldn’t do either.
     
    I suspect that some of it was a delayed realization regarding the political-aesthetic values surrounding The Deer Hunter; in its attitudes towards social rituals (cf the wedding and hunting sequences), military service, and love of country (cf the "God Bless America " scene), the film is positively Burkean. Indeed, allowing for generational shifts, it's the kind of film that John Ford might have made, had he been born in 1939 and not 1894.

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.

    @ syon

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.

    Great film IMO…amazing performances from Clint Eastwood (very understated) and Jeff Bridges (filled with pathos).

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn

    Good point I always wondered about Cimino’s fall from grace. I mean he screws up the budget on one film Heaven’s Gate (okay yeah I know ….it was a lot of money) he finds it difficult to make another film again in Hollywood. At the time it sounded strange to me, but maybe they were looking for a reason to deep six him as you suggest. A certain schadenfreude if you will (to reference a recent post by Steve regarding German words). On the other hand, it may be that he is just particularly difficult to work with. His Wiki entry lists numerous projects he has been associated with, but did not end up filming including ” The Fountainhead” his dream project. His other dream project is purportedly filming Crime and Punishment, but I don’t see how these two books are connected . The list makes for interesting reading however.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paleo Retiree
    The filmbiz didn't turn its back on Cimino because of "Heaven's Gate." He went on to make three more biggish-budget movies in the 1980s -- not a bad record. What "Heaven's Gate" represented was the end of the "New Hollywood" era of the 1970s, and what the business turned its back on was the personal-cinema, visionary-director thang that defined the '70s. The biz took the disaster of "Heaven's Gate" as proof that producers and studios needed to get back in charge of moviemaking.

    (Don't mean to pontificate, but I was in the middle of film journalism back in those days. Might as well put a little of it to use.)

    , @whorefinder

    His Wiki entry lists numerous projects he has been associated with, but did not end up filming including ” The Fountainhead” his dream project. His other dream project is purportedly filming Crime and Punishment, but I don’t see how these two books are connected.
     
    Actually might make sense as together. Dostoyevsky was a former radical turned ultra-nationalist/tsarist who was quite open in criticizing left-wing ewish influence and behavior in his time---so much so that he wrote a lighthearted essay defending himself against charges of anti-semitism.

    That Cimino might be attracted to projects that undercut left-wing ideology.
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  86. Jon says:
    @Adam1
    Off topic — Slate: James Watson Throws a Fit

    Watson fundamentally misunderstands research on race, genes, and intelligence. Scientists have been debunking ideas like his since well before The Bell Curve made a mockery of statistical analysis. The latest for-crying-out-loud-do-we have-to-do-this-again moment came this year with the publication of Nicholas Wade’s book Troublesome Inheritance, which Watson blurbed as “a masterful overview of how changes in our respective lineages let us begin to understand how human beings have evolved.” Anthropologists, evolutionary biologists, and pretty much anybody with real expertise explained why the book’s assumptions about race-based traits were wrong—and Wade is much more sophisticated in his thinking than Watson is.
     
    Yet the Slate writer does not provide a single argument against Wade & Watson's wrong, wrong, wrong views. Other experts have said they are wrong. That is enough.

    Watson had a major insight 61 years ago about the physical structure of DNA. He is one of the founders of a very important but very specific subset of modern biology, and he devoted most of the rest of his career to the study of cancer biology. But he knows fuck all about history, human evolution, anthropology, sociology, psychology, or any rigorous study of intelligence or race.
     
    Slate writers know “fuck all" about pretty much everything except lib/prog propaganda.

    There’s quite a food fight going on in the comments of the James Watson article.

    One occasionally wonders about the longevity of comment systems. Should something come up in the next few years that indisputably proves up certain HBD topics (I know, I know — a daydream, but indulge me)… will one be able to go back and leave “nanner, nanner” kickers to old comments? One wonders how those on the Left would take that, as their default reaction to no-escape facts is to burst into flames.

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  87. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Priss Factor
    "One lady couldn’t eat anything because Thais used peanuts everywhere."

    I've always said Thai food is chop suey with peanut butter.

    Chinese food has peanuts too though.

    Thai food is more like chop suey with coconut and fragrant flower or plants mixed in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    The resemblance to Chinese food is no coincidence. First of all, China was the "Rome" of Asia for thousands of years, from which all other cultures took their cues.

    2nd, the merchant class of Thailand was largely made up of overseas Chinese (just like the merchants of E. Europe were mostly Jewish) and a lot of "Thai" restaurants in America are run by them. They lived in Thailand for hundreds of years, so their cooking was Chinese with Thai influences. "Pad thai" , the national dish , is a recent (1940s) invention - it was the winner of a contest sponsored by the king to invent a dish that was NOT Chinese. Imagine in America if our national dish was really German. Oh, wait.
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  88. Jefferson says:

    “I’m surprised you’ve been going to Thai places that long. Thai food only became trendy relatively recently. I don’t recall seeing Thai places on the East Coast even in the 90s. I’m sure they were around but generally you didn’t find them on the East Coast unless you were seeking them out, and you weren’t usually seeking them out because it wasn’t trendy then. I imagine they were more common in LA back then relative to the East Coast. But what about Chicago? Were there lots of Thai places in Chicago back then?”

    I know a Thai restaurant in San Francisco that has been open since 1977. But that should not be surprising because San Francisco is the gateway to Asia. This city has always been a huge magnet for Asian immigrants.

    Read More
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  89. @Seneca
    @ syon

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.
     
    Great film IMO...amazing performances from Clint Eastwood (very understated) and Jeff Bridges (filled with pathos).

    @Lucius Somesuch

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn
     
    Good point I always wondered about Cimino's fall from grace. I mean he screws up the budget on one film Heaven's Gate (okay yeah I know ....it was a lot of money) he finds it difficult to make another film again in Hollywood. At the time it sounded strange to me, but maybe they were looking for a reason to deep six him as you suggest. A certain schadenfreude if you will (to reference a recent post by Steve regarding German words). On the other hand, it may be that he is just particularly difficult to work with. His Wiki entry lists numerous projects he has been associated with, but did not end up filming including " The Fountainhead" his dream project. His other dream project is purportedly filming Crime and Punishment, but I don't see how these two books are connected . The list makes for interesting reading however.

    The filmbiz didn’t turn its back on Cimino because of “Heaven’s Gate.” He went on to make three more biggish-budget movies in the 1980s — not a bad record. What “Heaven’s Gate” represented was the end of the “New Hollywood” era of the 1970s, and what the business turned its back on was the personal-cinema, visionary-director thang that defined the ’70s. The biz took the disaster of “Heaven’s Gate” as proof that producers and studios needed to get back in charge of moviemaking.

    (Don’t mean to pontificate, but I was in the middle of film journalism back in those days. Might as well put a little of it to use.)

    Read More
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  90. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “Bayesian probability” is a good character string to use when you’re making up some point about murderous genocidal robots but not about actual journalism.

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  91. whorefinder says: • Website
    @Seneca
    @ syon

    Incidentally, speaking of Cimino, I just re-watched Thunderbolt and Lightfoot .It still holds up.
     
    Great film IMO...amazing performances from Clint Eastwood (very understated) and Jeff Bridges (filled with pathos).

    @Lucius Somesuch

    I’ve come to suspect Cimino rubbed the NYC critics the wrong way on some kind of ethnic-y score anyhow. “The Deer Hunter” made the Viet Cong look evil, and THAT wouldn’t do, to be sure. But the kind of Slavophile Tolstoian epics Cimino was making (yes, I know many will scorn the comparison, but even if you hate Cimino’s work, you can see the intent) must’ve prompted visceral scorn
     
    Good point I always wondered about Cimino's fall from grace. I mean he screws up the budget on one film Heaven's Gate (okay yeah I know ....it was a lot of money) he finds it difficult to make another film again in Hollywood. At the time it sounded strange to me, but maybe they were looking for a reason to deep six him as you suggest. A certain schadenfreude if you will (to reference a recent post by Steve regarding German words). On the other hand, it may be that he is just particularly difficult to work with. His Wiki entry lists numerous projects he has been associated with, but did not end up filming including " The Fountainhead" his dream project. His other dream project is purportedly filming Crime and Punishment, but I don't see how these two books are connected . The list makes for interesting reading however.

    His Wiki entry lists numerous projects he has been associated with, but did not end up filming including ” The Fountainhead” his dream project. His other dream project is purportedly filming Crime and Punishment, but I don’t see how these two books are connected.

    Actually might make sense as together. Dostoyevsky was a former radical turned ultra-nationalist/tsarist who was quite open in criticizing left-wing ewish influence and behavior in his time—so much so that he wrote a lighthearted essay defending himself against charges of anti-semitism.

    That Cimino might be attracted to projects that undercut left-wing ideology.

    Read More
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  92. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Jonah Goldberg in LA Times on RS rape story:

    “Rolling Stone has published an incredible story about a rape at the University of Virginia. The story has sent shock waves around the country.

    “But when I say the story is incredible, I mean that in the literal, largely abandoned sense of the word. It is not credible — I don’t believe it.

    http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82147000/

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  93. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Steve,

    Could there be a racial theme to the Rolling Stone story after all? There appear to be racial hints sprinkled throughout the piece: the all blond campus; Jackie combing her dark hair; the very name Jackie; the reference to Thomas Jefferson’s “legacy”.

    Might Jackie be a woman of color?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Life guard? Long hair?
    , @Jack D
    No. The detail that "Jackie" is a lifeguard is meant as a dog whistle signal that she is white. People are wondering why the seemingly irrelevant lifeguard detail was included - that's why.
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  94. YSV Ro says: • Website

    Same thing is true for pretty much every non-European cuisine. Any half-baked white culinary school graduate could open an Indian or Chinese place that’s ten times better than 95% of the places run by Indians and Chinese..

    You seem to have incredibly bland taste in food. You sound exactly like those SWPL “foodies” whose claims of cultural knowledge and refinement in culinary assessment sound simply comical.
    Of all the idiotic claims of whites doing foreign stuff better than foreigners, this is the worst!

    I have eaten at these Indian and Chinese places run by if not homosexual then incredibly effete and weird white guys and let me tell it is (highly)over priced slop. The naans have no texture, the biryanis have zero flavor. And dont give me this balderdash of minimalism. You want to be a minimalist? Stick to Japanese cuisine

    Mind you, this is not a excuse for open borders at all. I am in favor in pre 1965 style quotas and Im from India. Sure you can have ethnic restaurants with far few immigrants but the white run ethnic restaurant will only cater to culinary philistines like yourself.
    Im sure the country will get by just fine without the culinary diversity and the strings attached that come with it. But let us not make idiotic and chauvinistic claims which even a half cosmopolitan individual will find impossible to believe.

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    • Replies: @peterike
    You seem to have incredibly bland taste in food.

    Rather not, old boy!

    Of all the idiotic claims of whites doing foreign stuff better than foreigners, this is the worst!

    Your experience is yours, mine is mine.

    I have eaten at these Indian and Chinese places run by if not homosexual then incredibly effete and weird white guys and let me tell it is (highly)over priced slop.

    My experience is that these "effete and weird white guys" take a hell of a lot more care in how they source their ingredients and how they put their food together. As opposed to the standard mystery meat in most Indian, Chinese and Mexican places, monotone flavor provided by goopy sauces.

    And dont give me this balderdash of minimalism.

    Who mentioned that? Though actually, a cleanly produced dish where you can taste the individual ingredients and it's not all melded together into a saucy, salty mess... well what's so bad about that?

    , @Anonymous
    It's not just the ethnic eateries run by white guys, but also the trendier ethnic eateries run by ethnics that cater to SWPLs that tend to tone down and alter the food significantly. It's only natural that they're going to tailor their food for the primary customer base. SWPLs, and most people in general, don't necessarily want the completely authentic cuisine, but a version of it that's more in line with what they're used to and comfortable with.

    They're more like two distinct cuisines rather than the same cuisine. The SWPLized versions tend to be more savory, richer, and blander to cater to more American tastes.

    I'm a meat and potatoes guy, so I like the SWPL versions. But I also like the more exotic authentic versions.
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  95. YSV Ro says: • Website

    Re Michael Cimino

    While I find many of the themes in Cimino films interesting and even appealing and yes I can see why the critics may hate him for the same, it has to be said that Cimino is just too pompous and self important. His films are in desperate need of a good producer and editor and they insist upon themselves ie Oscar greedy.
    I heard so many good things about Deer Hunter so when I saw it finally , I was shocked to see how ponderous and dull it was.
    I have no objection to long movies at all. The ambitious, daring and adult movie ever made in the 80s was Sergio Leone’s Once Upon in America about vicious Jewish gangsters in Prohibition era NYC. It ran for nearly 4 hours. I cant imagine a single shot which was redundant.
    I cant say the same about Ciminos movies

    Ultimately what did Cimino in was not really the bad critical reception to it. One can withstand bad press and still have a commercially successful movie. Heavens Gate was horrendously over budget due to Ciminos lack of managerial ability. And its failure in affected other directors such John Carpenter and Martin Scorsese who ever rather angry with Cimino for ruining it for them and putting control over product back to the studio. Its due to the fiasco of HG that Scorsese couldn’t make GONY for another 20 years(he originally planned it with DeNiro in DeCaprio’s role)

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  96. @Anonymous
    Steve,

    Could there be a racial theme to the Rolling Stone story after all? There appear to be racial hints sprinkled throughout the piece: the all blond campus; Jackie combing her dark hair; the very name Jackie; the reference to Thomas Jefferson's "legacy".

    Might Jackie be a woman of color?

    Life guard? Long hair?

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  97. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin
    Use archive.today when linking to clickbait it archives the page and doesn't provide clicks like donotlink.com

    It is blocked by mcafee filter (where I work at least) as under category anonymizing utilities.

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  98. dearieme says:
    @slumber_j
    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club

    The club uniform is magnificently stupid, requiring the outlay of thousands of pounds for a garishly useless, custom-made swallowtail coat.

    “A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford …” Correction: the sole famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford.

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    • Replies: @Celt Darnell
    @slumber_j

    “A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford …” Correction: the sole famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford.

    Pitt Club, Cambridge.

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  99. dearieme says:
    @syonredux
    steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    It’s elite, but not nearly as elite as Harvard, or Princeton, or Yale. To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story.

    It’s Southern, not Northern; hence, one can attach to it the standard liberal stigmata (slavery, Jim Crow, male chauvinism, etc)

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so. Garry Wills’ work provides a useful chart for the shift in opinion. In Inventing America: Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence (1978), Wills’ is respectful and sympathetic.In Negro President: Jefferson and the Slave Power (2003), he is hostile and condemning .

    “To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story.”

    That had occurred to me. I must be becoming a dreadful cynic.

    “Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy”: Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens. What a lovely chap he was.

    “As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so”: and very sensible too. The man was a scoundrelly huckster. The best of them was Washington.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    “Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy”: Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens.
     
    RE: her taste for power,

    Here is Madison Hemings' account of her decision to go back to Virginia:

    He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston--three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families.
     
    Call me a cynical bastard, but this does not sound like a woman groaning under the weight of an unbearable tyranny. To my mind, this sounds like a woman who decided that life as a powerful White man's concubine was preferable to living as a free woman in Paris.
    , @syonredux
    And here's Madison's account of life at Monticello:

    When I was fourteen years old I was put to the carpenter trade under the charge of John Hemings, the youngest son of my grandmother. His father's name was Nelson, who was an Englishman. She had seven children by white men and seven by colored men--fourteen in all. My brothers, sister Harriet and myself, were used alike. We were permitted to stay about the "great house," and only required to do such light work as going on errands. Harriet learned to spin and to weave in a little factory on the home plantation. We were free from the dread of having to be slaves all our lives long, and were measurably happy. We were always permitted to be with our mother, who was well used. It was her duty, all her life which I can remember, up to the time of father's death, to take care of his chamber and wardrobe, look after us children and do such light work as sewing,
     
    It seems that Sally found this arrangement preferable to living as a free woman in Paris.Of course, she would have had first-hand knowledge of what life was like for the urban poor in 18th century France......
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  100. slumber_j says:
    @syonredux

    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:
     
    Princeton banned fraternities until the 1980s, and, in response, the students developed eating clubs that are analogous to the Bullingdon Club:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_clubs_at_Princeton_University

    F. Scott Fitzgerald was a member of the University Cottage Club, and he devotes a good chunk of This Side of Paradise (his debut novel) to describing the Princeton Eating Clubs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Cottage_Club

    Yeah, but the Princeton clubs aren’t really the same: nearly all undergraduates belong to one, and they function as substitute dining halls where students eat almost all their meals.

    The Bullingdon meets occasionally, mostly to get blackout-drunk and trash an unsuspecting restaurant. Any “dining” is purely incidental.

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  101. Dahlia says:

    As we’ve all poked holes in this story, it occurs to me that different people notice different things.

    UVA students and alumni are far more likely to point out that the season is wrong for pledges. A couple or more have even gone so far as to explain at length the rationales behind when they do their pledges.

    This seems to be pretty fundamental knowledge for anyone familiar at all with the UVA Greek system. Would “Jackie” have gotten this so wrong?

    No.

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  102. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:
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  103. syonredux says:

    Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens.

    What children? Here is the relevant passage from her WIKIPEDIA bio:

    According to Madison Hemings, Sally Hemings’ first child died soon after her return from Paris. Those Jefferson records that have survived mutilation and purge note that Hemings had six children after her return to the US:[28]

    Harriet Hemings (I) (October 5, 1795 – December 7, 1797)[29]
    Beverley Hemings (possibly named William Beverley Hemings) (April 1, 1798 – after 1873)[29]
    unnamed daughter (or possibly named Thenia after Hemings’ sister Thenia) (born in 1799 and died in infancy)[29]
    Harriet Hemings (II) (May 22, 1801 – after 1863)[29]
    Madison Hemings (possibly named James Madison Hemings) (January 19, 1805 – 1877)[29]
    Eston Hemings (possibly named Thomas Eston Hemings) (May 21, 1808 – 1856)[29]

    All of her children were born after she and Jefferson returned from Paris.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    It was rather deceitful of you to omit "According to her son Madison's memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She agreed to return with him to the United States based on his promise to free their children when they came of age." It looks to me as if that quotation makes precisely the point I made. How on earth did you draw the opposite conclusion?

    Anyway, my original point was that when a feminist argues that he was a rapist, it's a less loony argument than many that she might spew. That stands up. Whether she'd also call him a rapist because of Sal's age (14) depends, presumably, on the age of consent in Paris at the time, and in Virginia afterwards. Whether the idea of "age of consent" even applied to Virginian slaves I have no idea. I dare say that the great spokesman for liberty knew, though.
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  104. Jack D says:
    @NOTA
    There is a funny parallel here between two politically hot stories where questions of fact and desired narratives collide. In one case, a grand jury decision should *not* be trusted as having carefully looked into the facts, but instead the whole matter needs further investigation. In the other, a journalist and her editors *should* be trusted as having looked into the facts, and anyone questioning them is a bad person.

    Obviously, what's happening here is that the desired narrative is driving peoples' assumptions about the facts. The problem is, that doesn't tell us what the facts really are. It's entirely possible that that cop shot Brown when he was trying to surrender, and that this awful gangrape happened at UVA in pretty much the way it's described in the article. The fact that there are dishonest people you don't much like who are willing to bend the truth to claim that those statements are true doesn't tell you anything about whether they're true or not. (Similarly, various people with unsavory motives may be trying to bend the truth to claim they're both false. Again, this doesn't tell you who's right.)

    You will never learn anything about the answer to a question of fact by analyzing whose side wins or loses based on the answer.

    “You will never learn anything about the answer to a question of fact by analyzing whose side wins or loses based on the answer.”

    You are completely wrong about this. In the post-modern, who/whom world, facts DEPEND on who wins and loses. It’s impossible to answer any question without knowing WHO and WHOM. Truth is, like racial, purely a social construct.

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    • Replies: @NOTA
    How's that working out for us as a society?
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  105. Art Deco says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    I've been going to Thai restaurants since 1983. Unlike most restaurants in the U.S., they haven't improved much. That's because they are run by people who aren't particularly interested in food, they are interested in living in America.

    Try Erawan outside of Syracuse.

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  106. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous
    Steve,

    Could there be a racial theme to the Rolling Stone story after all? There appear to be racial hints sprinkled throughout the piece: the all blond campus; Jackie combing her dark hair; the very name Jackie; the reference to Thomas Jefferson's "legacy".

    Might Jackie be a woman of color?

    No. The detail that “Jackie” is a lifeguard is meant as a dog whistle signal that she is white. People are wondering why the seemingly irrelevant lifeguard detail was included – that’s why.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Zed, Lord of the Brutals
    It is very possible that is what we are meant to infer. "I know that you know that I know....and so forth."
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  107. Brutusale says:
    @Priss Factor
    “On a lighter note: Japan achieves authentic foreign cuisine without importing foreigners.”

    But must they put corn on pizza?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBfhI1Jpw6A

    You sound like Tony Bourdain, flabbergasted when he was served ramen with corn in it in Japan.

    The consensus pick for the best Thai restaurant in America is Pok Pok in Portland and NYC, run by the decidedly non-Thai owner/chef Andy Ricker.

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  108. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    "To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story."

    That had occurred to me. I must be becoming a dreadful cynic.

    "Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy": Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn't overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens. What a lovely chap he was.

    "As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so": and very sensible too. The man was a scoundrelly huckster. The best of them was Washington.

    “Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy”: Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens.

    RE: her taste for power,

    Here is Madison Hemings’ account of her decision to go back to Virginia:

    He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston–three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families.

    Call me a cynical bastard, but this does not sound like a woman groaning under the weight of an unbearable tyranny. To my mind, this sounds like a woman who decided that life as a powerful White man’s concubine was preferable to living as a free woman in Paris.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the "blacks" (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men - this was taken as a given.
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  109. : I have, on at least a couple of occasions, watched “Heaven’s Gate” in the 3h 40 min cut twice in 48 hours, and in perfect honesty I can say the film holds my rapt attention better now than, say, “Doctor Zhivago”.

    Cimino is certainly a megalomaniac–Oliver Stone called him “the most Napoleonic director I’ve ever met”– and of course it’s readily conceivable (though I’ve read Stephen Bach’s book and he for one, as far as I recall, never cast the aspersion) he was a cokehead, but–

    I mean, no one calls David Lean or Luchino Visconti a cokehead. Coppola cops to trying coke all of four times (this before he went on anti-depressants and started doing chamber productions like “One from the heart” and “The Cotton Club”).

    Impressive as it is that you were at that screening, I can’t but think ill of you for not steeling yourself against that foul mood of anti-Ciminoism.

    I showed “Heaven’s Gate” to The Love Of My Life on July 14, 2006 (Bastille Day; and a year and a day later she “needed to talk”, so I recall the date well). Knowing well the odds after punishing her with Bergman this and Rohmer that, I just told her before we started that she would hate it.

    When it was finished, she told me, unsolicited, that it was the most beautiful movie she’d ever seen. When I repeated Canby’s “four hour forced-march around my living room” snark to her, she winced in horror.

    F**k Vincent Canby.

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    • Replies: @Paleo Retiree
    I haven't given you my own reaction to "Heaven's Gate," I've only let you know what the mood at the screening was like. People just didn't like the film. I didn't have the impression that anyone in attendance had any animus against Cimino. They were hoping to enjoy the film, and then couldn't believe what an overblown (if often impressive and beautiful) mess Cimino had delivered. The film didn't start acquiring a rep as a misunderstood masterpiece until some French critics took it up -- they seemed to like its semi-Marxist message. And then some American filmgeeks picked up on their idea.

    I think it's common knowledge that Cimino was going thru mountains of cocaine at the time. Why would anyone accuse Lean or Visconti of being a '70s or '80s-style cokehead, btw? I haven't read bios of the two guys so have no idea if they ever indulged, but judging from their movies they were clearly never out of control and out of their skulls on the drug, the way Cimino by all accounts was.
    , @Priss Factor
    "When it was finished, she told me, unsolicited, that it was the most beautiful movie she’d ever seen."

    How much coke did you supply her with?

    I have a soft spot for Heaven's Gate too. I know it was trashed viciously when it came out, and the critical reaction was overly harsh. I think the reaction wasn't only against the movie but to the whole auteur thing in the 1970s that'd blown out of proportion and run out of gas. By mid 70s, Altman, Friedkin, and others were turning out megalomaniac movies of their own. Altman made pompous stuff like Quintet. Friedkin made Sorcerer that, despite some amazing action scenes, was a confused mess. He ended the decade with Cruising, a sort of interesting but confused and demented movie. Scorsese made a huge stinker with New York New York. Peckinpah had crashed and burned. Coppola did gain respect with Atacolypse Now, but it was a very controversial movie and I recall the critical community was divided.

    Btw, the Lean film to compare with Heaven's Gate is Ryan's Daughter, a disaster for Lean critically and financially. Dr. Zhivago didn't get good critical press but it was a mega-hit.

    There was also the critical backlash due to the huge success of Deer Hunter. Though a critical backlash eventually developed with Deer Hunter, many critics praised it and it won best picture at the Oscars. I think the critics who hated Deer Hunter was sharpening their knives for Heaven's Gate. And critics who loved Deer Hunter expected another film as gripping and powerful.
    Deer Hunter is a mixed-bag movie but compelling cinema due to Deniro. And Streep's performance is beautiful. Walken is spectacular(so much so that he somehow managed to survive a 100o russian roulette bouts in Saigon before Deniro came to take him back).
    But Heaven's Gate is dramatically limp. Its center is a void, a sinkhole. It's one thing to look at landscape paintings or photographs devoid of people, but movies with stories need characters. Trees, rivers, and mountains may look nice but they don't tell stories. They are what they are.
    We want change and action in movies. Living things/beings have action. This is even true of history. Greek history is long and old, but we mostly fixate on the few centuries in BC period and why? Greeks did so much then(but then achieved almost nothing thereafter). They were dynamic. American history is only a few centuries old whereas some civilizations have histories that go back for 1000s of yrs. Yet, the world is captivated by American history because every single year of American history since the founding is more dynamic and exciting than 10o yrs in another civilization that was static. Characters make movies dynamic.
    Heaven's Gate has the looks, but it's static with characters, and because the characters don't take center stage, the action(when it comes) seems superfluous. Who are fighting and do we really care? One could say the same for Pat Garret and Billy the Kid with Coburn and Kristofferson moping around like they're on vacation. Still, we feel the delayed tension between friends, and they aren't buried by production values gone out of control. But in Heaven's Gate, for the life of me, I can't really recall what any character did. I know there's a big fight at the end, but they seemed to be marking time for most of the movie. It's like a merry-go-around.

    But there are virtues. It meticulously brings to life a bygone time and place. One can call it poetic sociology. I like the scenes of immigrants dancing and making music and roller-skating(if indeed they did such a thing). It's like listening to The Band. It has something of Malick's Days of Heaven.
    It also has grandeur comparable to Leone's ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST.
    Leone's film was also a huge disaster in America(though a big hit in some places in Europe), and neglected by both audiences and critics. In time, it came to recognized as a classic. I saw the revival in 1986, and was very impressed. Seeing it again on dvd, I realized I wasn't impressed enough. It is a titanic achievement. Some might say it too is slow and boring, but most critics have come around to recognizing its greatness. It is a great work of myth.
    Heaven's Gate, on the other hand, has many good and even great things, but they don't come together. It's like a giant unfinished or 'unfinishable' puzzle. The pieces are nice but remain incongruous and apart. I saw it again on dvd not long ago and found much of it very impressive but the movie doesn't come together in the way that Seven Samurai and Siberiade do. It's more comparable to Bertolucci's insane 1900. For some reason, Italians and Italian-Americans were going nuts with such huge-ass movies in the 1970s. Bertolucci could make a dramatically powerful movie. Last Tango has a great opening act and a spectacular last part beginning with Brando's lamentation before his dead wife. But there's a lot of stuff in the middle that I still cannot stomach much. But more often than not, Bertolucci was all about the look and style. The Conformist looks great but is shallow and vapid. But as a 2 hr movie and well-paced, so it's enjoyable enough. But 1900, wow... It's not without virtues but it's heaping mess, a disaster. It's like it doesn't matter how great a ship or plane is if it's sunk or fallen from the sky. We don't admire ships or airplanes for their lone/disparate parts but for their wholeness and effectiveness. A crashed plane may still have an impressive wing and other parts strewn all over the place, but it's no longer useful as a plane. 1900 is like that. Okay, it's big and impressive in parts, but it's like rummaging through the twin towers after 9/11.
    Heaven's Gate just sprawls all over the place. It's like watching the waves in the Fukushima tsunami. It's a beautiful movie but beauty turned into The Blob that overflows all over the place into every crevice and drowns out everything with The Look.

    Heaven's Gate is also confused because Cimino tries to work in two opposing modes: realism and mythicism. Once Upon a Time in the West works as a great myth. No one would mistake it for any kind of reality. In contrast, Heaven's Gate, with its great attention to details and presentation of hardships, tries to be anti-mythic. It seems to say the real West wasn't like 'cowboys and indians' but really like THIS as shown by Cimino. We seen horrible violence, much attention to misery and hardship.
    But then, as he overloads it with so much beauty, glittering sunlight on water, mountain scapes, panoramic shots, grand vistas, and etc---all in gold-lit nostalgia---, it is also an mega-attempt at myth-making. So, are we seeing realism or romanticism? You got me. It's like a giant golden mantlepiece loaded with dirt, grime, and dust. Walter Hill proved with Long Riders that one doesn't need a mega-canvas to recreate a lost time and place. You don't have to show everything and then some.
    Problem with Cimino is he not only had to show everything but even more that had nothing to do with the story. It's like, did he really have to shoot in the Northwest Rockies in Deer Hunter when the men are clearly going hunting in the Appalachias? Did he have to make the men of the small town Russian to invoke Tolstoy? Deer Hunter works better but it too teeters between gritty realism and hyper-grandiloquent-ism.
    Deer Hunter is best when intimate, worst when it goes for epic scale. It could have settled for small tragedy that would have been more effective, but it goes for that Great Tragic Moment--and you know it's coming(you know the final shot is gonna blow his head away)!!! ... though I must say the ending with 'God bless America' is done beautifully.
    Heaven's Gate is beyond epic. It's extraneous epic. Some might accuse Jan Troell of the same with Emigrants and New Land. It's true that Troell piles details upon details, but Troell never loses his sense of scale and focus. He's dealing intimately with the stuff of everyday life, so details matter. With Cimino, it's like the details are meant to form into something like Sistine Chapel. But you can't use realism that way. Realism is the wrong element for epic grandeur or romanticism. It's why Bob Dylan and the Band didn't try to turn Basement Tapes into an opera.
    I think the homokin Robin Wood was crazy about Heaven's Gate because it was so ripe with aestheticism(even when it toned down on that stuff). Fruits love that stuff. The Western made by a window-dresser. Imagine My Darling Clementine directed by Max Ophuls(esp of Lola Montez).
    It's why Tree of Life is so terrible. It's why George Steven's Greatest Story Ever Told is ludicrous. It goes for scale beyond scale for a subject that doesn't call for such. Like Stevens, Cimino wasn't just drawing inspiration from history but from the entire history of art(as if to capture every tone and mode of the history of painting from Renaissance to the Impressionism) and history of cinema, as if his films would the final summation of all the styles explored by earlier artists. He goes going for broke like Griffith with Intolerance, and United Artists surely did go broke. (I think Griffith was one of its founders.)

    I don't think too highly of Beatty's REDS but it's all of one piece. Like it or not, it's a nostalgia-peddling of American romance with Bolshevism. If icky-boy Ken Burns ever made an epic feature film, it'd be something like Reds. Though Beatty isn't a commanding actor, he is very much at the center of the movie and has a certain charm. Gorgeous man for one thing.
    Especially when a movie is big and grand, it needs a strong/appealing character to hold everything together, to provide a gravitational force. Heaven's Gate has no such center, and the various threads must meander and go off in all directions like so many rivers and streams.
    And even though it's vaguely about the conflict between good guys and bad guys, there are huge stretches in the movie when it seems to be entirely about something else. It's a movie that keeps taking vacations from itself. There are side stories in Seven Samurai too, but they are all relate to the larger story of the war with bandits. But I'm not sure what the love triangle in Heaven's Gate has to do with the main conflict at hand. But hey, Cimino just felt like throwing it in there---maybe as a nod to the love triangle in the Deer Hunter.

    Without strong/memorable/striking personalities, epics can seem laborious. I think Right Stuff has problems--much of the film seems more like logistics than film-making--but the personalities came to the rescue. I love Ed Harris, Scott Glenn, Dennis Quaid and others in it. I think they went up against Kaufman in the same way the real astronauts went up against the NASA program. Kaufman must have been caught up in the grand project, and there was the danger that characters would be overshadowed by production values. But Wolfe's lively storytelling and the charisma of actors made the movie work... though the audiences disagreed as it was a huge box office bomb.

    But what were the guys in Heaven's Gate on? Pot? They seem so out of it. Such lanky acting can work in a small-scale movie like Hired Hand with Peter Fonda. Even if actors aren't powerful, they are gonna dominate the threadbare production. But when the production is huge, you need actors/characters strong enough to take center stage. Kristofferson was likable and not without talent, but as an actor he lacked energy. He looked like some burnt out hickory log that had no fire left in it. It's like what his character says in Convoy: Melissa: "But they're all following you." Rubberduck(Kristofferson) "No, they ain't. I'm just in front of them." Passive leadership. You can't have that in an epic.
    One could argue... what about Dr. Zhivago? Zhivago is a passive character. True, but the real heart of the movie is in the romance. History is the backdrop. And we feel the power of the love between zhivago and lara from the first time he sets eyes on her. We know he's smitten from that moment to the final moment when he dies calling out to her. But everyone in Heaven's Gate seems passive in love as well in war. Also, the film lacks shape. Blade Runner failed with critics and audiences for similar reasons. They said it was all Look and no story and character. But they were wrong. In retrospect, if you get in the right mood, Blade Runner works like magic. Also, it's shaped and constructed well in terms of plot and choreography. The final battle scene in Heaven's Gate is impressive but a total mess. It's like the Russian version of War and Peace(released in the 1960s) that is all over the place. And by golly, that goes on for over 9 hrs thus more interminable than Heaven's Gate --- though I must say it has some great battle scenes.

    And then there's the problem of the theme. A lot of people didn't like Ragtime but its all-too-palpable theme gives it a kick, a charge. It's a kind of Freudian take on history. Jewish guy is driven mad by his cheating wife. Negro's male pride is hurt by death of his wife. The younger brother turns to terrorism(by aiding the negroes) because the woman he loves rejects him. A rich woman's son kills a rich man(Norman Mailer) for disgracing his wife. The uptight wasp loses the moral and thus sexual respect of his woman who runs off with the Jewish guy who's remade himself into a famous movie maker. Beavis would have said 'boing' over and over. Agree or disagree with this vision of history, it's all held together by the boing-ness of it all. But Heaven's Gate is like a giant phallus that is limp and deflated. I mean the size doesn't matter if it can't get erect, and heaven's gate is impotent. Cimino offered the body massage, bath, ointment, food, and etc, etc, but he left out the viagra. A lot of care went into the movie but the crucial thing is missing. It's like going through the big trouble of fixing up a grand old car but leaving the tires flat. It aint going nowhere. Heaven's Gate is like John Holmes who can't get it up. It's big but just hanging.

    That said, I don't hate the movie, and I'm glad that it's been given a second chance. And I prefer it to stuff like There Will Be Blood.
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  110. Jack D says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I've been going to Thai restaurants since 1983. Unlike most restaurants in the U.S., they haven't improved much. That's because they are run by people who aren't particularly interested in food, they are interested in living in America.

    The reason American Thai restaurants are mediocre is because the customers are mostly white. There aren’t enough Thai people in America to sustain most Thai restaurants. The vast improvement in Chinese restaurants in big cities in America (from “chop suey” to very authentic) has come about because there is a large Chinese customer base to keep the chefs honest. In areas where there still aren’t many Chinese, it’s still mostly slop.

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    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "The vast improvement in Chinese restaurants in big cities in America"

    Gimme a break. True, Chinese food did get better from 1970s to 1990s, but it hasn't improved since then. For one thing, there are too many, and they serve the same crap.
    Sure, there are fancy Chinese places in some cities, but most Chinese food in most places isn't much better than frozen dinner after it's been in microwave.

    If anything, too many Chinese immigrants meant too many Chinese restaurants, and they all dish out the same formula.
    The place where I go to for chop suey is pretty decent but only for carryouts.
    Some say chop suey is really American, but I say it's the best Chinese dish in the world. It tastes honest.
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  111. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    "To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story."

    That had occurred to me. I must be becoming a dreadful cynic.

    "Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy": Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn't overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens. What a lovely chap he was.

    "As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so": and very sensible too. The man was a scoundrelly huckster. The best of them was Washington.

    And here’s Madison’s account of life at Monticello:

    When I was fourteen years old I was put to the carpenter trade under the charge of John Hemings, the youngest son of my grandmother. His father’s name was Nelson, who was an Englishman. She had seven children by white men and seven by colored men–fourteen in all. My brothers, sister Harriet and myself, were used alike. We were permitted to stay about the “great house,” and only required to do such light work as going on errands. Harriet learned to spin and to weave in a little factory on the home plantation. We were free from the dread of having to be slaves all our lives long, and were measurably happy. We were always permitted to be with our mother, who was well used. It was her duty, all her life which I can remember, up to the time of father’s death, to take care of his chamber and wardrobe, look after us children and do such light work as sewing,

    It seems that Sally found this arrangement preferable to living as a free woman in Paris.Of course, she would have had first-hand knowledge of what life was like for the urban poor in 18th century France……

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  112. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous
    Chinese food has peanuts too though.

    Thai food is more like chop suey with coconut and fragrant flower or plants mixed in.

    The resemblance to Chinese food is no coincidence. First of all, China was the “Rome” of Asia for thousands of years, from which all other cultures took their cues.

    2nd, the merchant class of Thailand was largely made up of overseas Chinese (just like the merchants of E. Europe were mostly Jewish) and a lot of “Thai” restaurants in America are run by them. They lived in Thailand for hundreds of years, so their cooking was Chinese with Thai influences. “Pad thai” , the national dish , is a recent (1940s) invention – it was the winner of a contest sponsored by the king to invent a dish that was NOT Chinese. Imagine in America if our national dish was really German. Oh, wait.

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  113. @Seamus
    The Rolling Stone story was fake but accurate.

    The Rolling Stone story was fake but accurate.

    Like the story about Polly Perkins and Rick von Sloneker?

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  114. NOTA says:
    @Jack D
    "You will never learn anything about the answer to a question of fact by analyzing whose side wins or loses based on the answer."

    You are completely wrong about this. In the post-modern, who/whom world, facts DEPEND on who wins and loses. It's impossible to answer any question without knowing WHO and WHOM. Truth is, like racial, purely a social construct.

    How’s that working out for us as a society?

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    That depends on which side of the who/whom equation you are on. If you are Barack Obama I'd say it's working rather well for you.
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  115. @Luke Lea
    The only name she names is U. of Va.

    The only name she names is U. of Va.

    And Phi Psi. But it’s like every other story chosen for mass distribution. The real purpose is to convey a sense of collective guilt. In this case the collectively guilty are Phi Psi brothers. Greeks more generally, men, and especially White men.

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  116. Ace says:

    So now the reporter has been reduced to: “corroborated every aspect of the story that I could.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/author-of-rolling-stone-story-on-alleged-u-va-rape-didnt-talk-to-accused-perpetrators/2014/12/01/e4c19408-7999-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

    Wow, the journalistic standards at Rolling Stone sound super!

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Wow, the journalistic standards at Rolling Stone sound super!

     

    Well, the magazine was founded to celebrate bad taste in music, clothes, politics and everything else. Why not "journalism" as well?

    (What used to be called "reporting".)
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  117. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    From a link somewhere up above:

    Wendy Kaminer, a civil libertarian and feminist who has written extensively on both rape and free speech on campus, emailed me, “I’d guess that the story is neither entirely fabricated nor entirely true, and, in any case, compels a real investigation by investigators with no stake in their findings.”

    I’d guess that the story is entirely fake, but if it is partially true it is surely a cry for help by these alleged rapists!

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  118. There was a Thai restaurant on Nebraska avenue in Upper Nortwest DC that I took my first real dinner date to in 1979.

    She didn’t like it.

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  119. Jack D says:
    @NOTA
    How's that working out for us as a society?

    That depends on which side of the who/whom equation you are on. If you are Barack Obama I’d say it’s working rather well for you.

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  120. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    “Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy”: Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens.
     
    RE: her taste for power,

    Here is Madison Hemings' account of her decision to go back to Virginia:

    He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston--three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families.
     
    Call me a cynical bastard, but this does not sound like a woman groaning under the weight of an unbearable tyranny. To my mind, this sounds like a woman who decided that life as a powerful White man's concubine was preferable to living as a free woman in Paris.

    Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the “blacks” (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the “blacks” (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given.
     
    I'm sure that some were raped, but I'm also quite sure that some were not:

    Richard Mentor Johnson (October 17, 1780 or 1781[a] – November 19, 1850) was the ninth Vice President of the United States, serving in the administration of Martin Van Buren (1837–1841). He is the only vice president ever elected by the United States Senate under the provisions of the Twelfth Amendment. Johnson also represented Kentucky in the U.S. House of Representatives and Senate; he began and ended his political career in the Kentucky House of Representatives.

    After his father died, Richard Johnson inherited Julia Chinn, an octoroon slave (one-eighth African, seven-eighths European in ancestry).[12] Johnson began a relationship with her and treated her as his common-law wife. They were prohibited from marrying because she was a slave.[13] When Johnson was away from his Kentucky plantation, he authorized Chinn to manage his business affairs.[2] She died in an epidemic of cholera in the summer of 1833.[1]

    Johnson and Chinn had two daughters, Adaline (or Adeline) Chinn Johnson and Imogene Chinn Johnson, whom he acknowledged and gave his surname. He provided for their education.[1][13] Both daughters married white men. Johnson gave them large farms as dowries from his own holdings
     
    For that matter, it's also interesting to note that Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemings allegedly began while she was a free woman in Paris.
    , @Rapparee
    "Everyone on the show... seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given."

    The archetypal Virginia gentleman rode about on horseback with flawless posture, armed with sword and pistol, and dressed in the finest bright clothing; from his mount, he gave orders to everyone in sight while expecting (and generally receiving) immediate obedience. He brooked no insults from any man, dueling at the drop of a hat if he felt his honor slighted, insisted on being addressed deferentially by his inferiors, and was considered within his rights to shamelessly flirt with any woman not another cavalier's wife. Despite his great station, he would distribute his wealth freely in true cavalier fashion, giving gifts whenever he pleased and not worrying a bit about his gambling losses.

    Clearly, no low-status woman would ever find herself attracted to such a man.


    (I often wonder how much the African-American "Pimp" archetype owes to the Cavalier culture of the old tidewater South. Flashy clothes, a predilection for violently avenging minor disrespect, ostentatious overspending, relentless womanizing, disdain for mercantile and manual trades, living off the labor of others... the list goes on).
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  121. dearieme says:
    @syonredux

    Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens.
     
    What children? Here is the relevant passage from her WIKIPEDIA bio:

    According to Madison Hemings, Sally Hemings' first child died soon after her return from Paris. Those Jefferson records that have survived mutilation and purge note that Hemings had six children after her return to the US:[28]

    Harriet Hemings (I) (October 5, 1795 - December 7, 1797)[29]
    Beverley Hemings (possibly named William Beverley Hemings) (April 1, 1798 - after 1873)[29]
    unnamed daughter (or possibly named Thenia after Hemings' sister Thenia) (born in 1799 and died in infancy)[29]
    Harriet Hemings (II) (May 22, 1801 - after 1863)[29]
    Madison Hemings (possibly named James Madison Hemings) (January 19, 1805 – 1877)[29]
    Eston Hemings (possibly named Thomas Eston Hemings) (May 21, 1808 – 1856)[29]
     
    All of her children were born after she and Jefferson returned from Paris.

    It was rather deceitful of you to omit “According to her son Madison’s memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She agreed to return with him to the United States based on his promise to free their children when they came of age.” It looks to me as if that quotation makes precisely the point I made. How on earth did you draw the opposite conclusion?

    Anyway, my original point was that when a feminist argues that he was a rapist, it’s a less loony argument than many that she might spew. That stands up. Whether she’d also call him a rapist because of Sal’s age (14) depends, presumably, on the age of consent in Paris at the time, and in Virginia afterwards. Whether the idea of “age of consent” even applied to Virginian slaves I have no idea. I dare say that the great spokesman for liberty knew, though.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    It was rather deceitful of you to omit “According to her son Madison’s memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She agreed to return with him to the United States based on his promise to free their children when they came of age.”
     
    I included it in posting No 108:

    He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston–three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families.
     

    It looks to me as if that quotation makes precisely the point I made. How on earth did you draw the opposite conclusion?
     
    Well, here is what you said:

    Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens.
     
    Note the phrase "using their children." Since you did not qualify the passage by noting that no children had as yet been born, one could easily infer that you were implying that children were already present.None were.

    Also note that you only referred to the (as yet unborn) children as a factor in Sally's decision to come back to Virginia:

    She agreed to return with him to the United States based on his promise to free their children when they came of age.”

     

    Madison, in contrast, notes the role of other factors:

    To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years.
     
    Again, call me a cynical bastard, but I tend to think that the promise of "extraordinary privileges" played an important role in her decision to go back. After all, if being free were all that she cared about, she could have just stayed in Paris.....
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  122. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @syonredux

    Not directed at me, I know. But in answer to your question, fraternal-ish university organizations do exist in Britain, just not to nearly the same extent as in the US or even Germany.

    A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, whose members have included Boris Johnson and David Cameron, and which gets a lot of attention in Brideshead Revisited and elsewhere:
     
    Princeton banned fraternities until the 1980s, and, in response, the students developed eating clubs that are analogous to the Bullingdon Club:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_clubs_at_Princeton_University

    F. Scott Fitzgerald was a member of the University Cottage Club, and he devotes a good chunk of This Side of Paradise (his debut novel) to describing the Princeton Eating Clubs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Cottage_Club

    The reason fraternities started back up at Princeton in the 80s is a woman named Sally Frank. The university went coed in 1970. All but 3 of the eating clubs went coed right away. The 3 holdouts were the most prestigious, and we all know how feminists feel about prestigious, all male clubs. Sally Frank sued all 3 in 1979. The first one caved in 86, but the last two made it to 91, when a court forced the issue, and created a new demand for exclusive, male only spaces.

    The feminists are firmly in control of the university now, thanks to recently retired President Shirley Tilghman, so finishing off fraternities is definitely on the agenda. It wouldn’t surprise me if the school combined the UVA article with some recent events at Tiger Inn to reach their goal.

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    • Replies: @Renault

    The reason fraternities started back up at Princeton in the 80s is a woman named Sally Frank. The university went coed in 1970. All but 3 of the eating clubs went coed right away. The 3 holdouts were the most prestigious, and we all know how feminists feel about prestigious, all male clubs. Sally Frank sued all 3 in 1979. The first one caved in 86, but the last two made it to 91, when a court forced the issue, and created a new demand for exclusive, male only spaces.

     

    They should have done what Harvard's final clubs did (successfully) -- go completely private, and separate themselves from the school completely.
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  123. It’s hard to make out how much of the story might have been made up by Erderly, and how much by Jackie. But I’d have to guess that it was almost entirely contrived by Jackie, but deliberately not verified by Erderly, who likely realized she was dealing with someone not entirely right in the head.

    So who would make up such an over-the-top story?

    Someone with Münchausen syndrome. If you’ve ever encountered such a person, you know how readily they will lie about anything, and how quickly they get to a point of absurdity in their details: they will say what seems to them best at getting the reaction they seek, completely untethered from reality.

    Probably the best sort of person to see through the lies is an Aspie, who doesn’t react to the details with a cognitively crippling feeling of shock, and instead simply tries to match them to reality.

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    • Replies: @Dahlia
    I think everyone agrees that this is a fabrication, we're just down to the nature and how of the lie(s).

    I stated in my very first post that something was wrong with the entire article and I stick by that. I won't repeat everything I've said, but will highlight the two biggest problems (that I remember from just one reading) that point to malfeasance on the part of either the journalist or Emily what's her name or both... or others(?):

    The glass bottle shattering "Jackie's" head incident plus the evasive, odd way it is written. The part about Emily and "two separate incidents" is awkward and seems to be in there to try to explain away something rather than illuminate the reader. Aside from the fact that it reads like terrible fiction, this "two separate incidents" and Emily is the most damning thing in the entire article.

    The other is getting the seasons of the pledges wrong. It seems to gall and baffle UVA alumni that this could be gotten wrong by any (real) student.

    I will remain out on that limb that says we're being Glass'ed.
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  124. It’s pretty amazing how quickly the wheels fell off this story, once the doubts started to get picked up on.

    Everybody can see how absurd it all was, now that they even allow themselves to question it.

    The Emperor is streaking back to his castle.

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  125. Art Deco says: • Website
    @dearieme
    "steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    I admit that the story doesn't sound plausible to me. But I've never raped anyone, or even been tempted to, nor am I familiar with US fraternities, so I don't suppose my guess is worth much.

    since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Since when has it been established that he did? The genetic testing was done on descendents of one of Sally Hemings’ many children and merely demonstrated that a male Jefferson was an ancestor. It did not identify which male Jefferson.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    There are a number of details that point in that direction, such as the fact that Jefferson was in residence at Monticello at the time each of the Hemings children would have been conceived. Madison Hemings was very matter of fact about the idea that Jefferson was his father and that of his other siblings. He had no particular reason to lie. He mentioned, again very matter of factly, that the children of his grandmother had more than 1 father - some white, some black. If some other Jefferson had been their father, it would have been more difficult to understand the extremely generous treatment that they received from Thomas.

    Again, people are conceiving this as "rape" where the slave had no say in the matter, but concubinage was a much more complex nuanced relationship than is implied by the word "rape" (just as most of these campus sexual assaults (aside from the probably fictional UVA rape) are not really "rape" either). Most slaveholding (and many other) societies have a separate category for concubines or mistresses. The woman is not your quite legal wife but she is far from a rape victim - she is someone that you may spend your entire life with. Her children are not your legitimate offspring but they are still your children and you bear some responsibility for them. We just don't have mental categories for these relationships, for several reasons: 1. The relationships, by their nature, were not publicly documented or discussed so the historical record is thin. 2. White women were probably never thrilled by the idea that they were in competition with sexy mulattas who were more caring and made fewer demands on their men. 3. In modern times, the left has corrupted the dialog so that every male - female relationship is automatically assumed to be "rape" and that every white-black relationship is automatically "exploitation" by the white. 4. In modern times, blacks have become much more ghettoized and the average SWPL can't conceive of having a relationship with some ghetto ho' , nor is she interested in consorting with any hated crackers. In the Old South, blacks and whites lived in close proximity and their cultures were much closer to each other.

    These kind of relationships existed in the South almost up to modern times (e.g. Strom Thurmond - the Southern "racist" who had a lifelong relationship with his illegitimate "black" (very light skinned mulatto) daughter).
    , @WhatEvvs
    Right. I doubt that Thomas impregnated Sally. I read a few books on the subject, and IMO, a cousin whose name I forget is the most likely candidate. Not Randolph, a cousin who hung around. He committed suicide.
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  126. I believe this story is fake. If a group of males bond by having a gang bang, they would hire a professional. Many women would love to do this. It is understood that with payment, the woman would keep this matter confidential. Men do not have to seduce an innocent to do this.
    They is no rape culture on campus and there never was.

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  127. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    It was rather deceitful of you to omit "According to her son Madison's memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She agreed to return with him to the United States based on his promise to free their children when they came of age." It looks to me as if that quotation makes precisely the point I made. How on earth did you draw the opposite conclusion?

    Anyway, my original point was that when a feminist argues that he was a rapist, it's a less loony argument than many that she might spew. That stands up. Whether she'd also call him a rapist because of Sal's age (14) depends, presumably, on the age of consent in Paris at the time, and in Virginia afterwards. Whether the idea of "age of consent" even applied to Virginian slaves I have no idea. I dare say that the great spokesman for liberty knew, though.

    It was rather deceitful of you to omit “According to her son Madison’s memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She agreed to return with him to the United States based on his promise to free their children when they came of age.”

    I included it in posting No 108:

    He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston–three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families.

    It looks to me as if that quotation makes precisely the point I made. How on earth did you draw the opposite conclusion?

    Well, here is what you said:

    Black Sal wanted to stay behind in Paris as a free woman when Jefferson returned to the US, so her taste for power presumably wasn’t overwhelming. He seems to have talked her out of it, using their children (who were of course also his slaves) as bargaining tokens.

    Note the phrase “using their children.” Since you did not qualify the passage by noting that no children had as yet been born, one could easily infer that you were implying that children were already present.None were.

    Also note that you only referred to the (as yet unborn) children as a factor in Sally’s decision to come back to Virginia:

    She agreed to return with him to the United States based on his promise to free their children when they came of age.”

    Madison, in contrast, notes the role of other factors:

    To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years.

    Again, call me a cynical bastard, but I tend to think that the promise of “extraordinary privileges” played an important role in her decision to go back. After all, if being free were all that she cared about, she could have just stayed in Paris…..

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  128. IBC says:
    @syonredux
    steeped in the legacy of its founder, Thomas Jefferson”: who was, as any feminist will tell you, a rapist himself. And that case would be less loony than usual, since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Certainly the power differential is in his favor…..but feminists tend not to realize that women find power quite sexy

    Is that why Sabrina Rubin Erdely chose UVA as the locale of her fiction, if fiction it be?

    It’s elite, but not nearly as elite as Harvard, or Princeton, or Yale. To put it more bluntly, you don’t want to make Harvard your enemy but UVA is a different story.

    It’s Southern, not Northern; hence, one can attach to it the standard liberal stigmata (slavery, Jim Crow, male chauvinism, etc)

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so. Garry Wills’ work provides a useful chart for the shift in opinion. In Inventing America: Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence (1978), Wills’ is respectful and sympathetic.In Negro President: Jefferson and the Slave Power (2003), he is hostile and condemning .

    As for Jefferson, the liberal elite have been in the process of turning against him for the last 25 years or so.

    I think that Thomas Jefferson still has many admirers, however you’re right in that it’s now a virtual requirement that any discussion about his life or work includes a strong statement about his hypocritical attitudes on slavery. Since he is known especially for penning that famous line from the Declaration of Independence that “all men are created equal,” an honest attempt to understand his attitude on this is actually important provided it doesn’t dominate all the discussion about him.

    A few months ago, there was an episode of On Point (A show on NPR, out of Boston) where they discussed Thomas Jefferson’s presidential style. The guest was Jon Meacham, an historian and the former editor of Newsweek. Fairly late in the show, Tom Ashbrook (who is actually a pretty astute and talented host in most cases) gave the prerequisite moral admonishment about Jefferson and slavery. In his response, Meacham did not mirror Ashbrook’s morally emphatic tone, but instead continued on with his usual interested but at the same time disinterested manner of speaking. He accepted criticism of Jefferson but put his hypocritical attitudes on race in the context of his other inconsistancies and even argued that Jefferson the Founding Father, would have never existed without the institution of slavery. I don’t think Meacham was trying to score points with either liberals or conservatives. And while I’m sure that Meacham has a deep interest in Jefferson, this wasn’t hero worship or an attack on false idols either. He was just trying to explain Jefferson’s perspective and how that related to the world in which he lived as well as how it might be relevant to us today.

    I’m recounting this because I think that it’s a good example of a good substantive discussion in a public forum (a call in radio show), where a potentially controversial issue was addressed but didn’t end up dominating the discussion. If people want that sort of discussion, it’s still available given the right moderators and participants. By the way, Meacham’s book is called Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power. I haven’t read it but it seems like it might offer some good examples of the “who/whom” principle, e.g. the Louisiana Purchase.

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  129. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the "blacks" (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men - this was taken as a given.

    Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the “blacks” (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given.

    I’m sure that some were raped, but I’m also quite sure that some were not:

    Richard Mentor Johnson (October 17, 1780 or 1781[a] – November 19, 1850) was the ninth Vice President of the United States, serving in the administration of Martin Van Buren (1837–1841). He is the only vice president ever elected by the United States Senate under the provisions of the Twelfth Amendment. Johnson also represented Kentucky in the U.S. House of Representatives and Senate; he began and ended his political career in the Kentucky House of Representatives.

    After his father died, Richard Johnson inherited Julia Chinn, an octoroon slave (one-eighth African, seven-eighths European in ancestry).[12] Johnson began a relationship with her and treated her as his common-law wife. They were prohibited from marrying because she was a slave.[13] When Johnson was away from his Kentucky plantation, he authorized Chinn to manage his business affairs.[2] She died in an epidemic of cholera in the summer of 1833.[1]

    Johnson and Chinn had two daughters, Adaline (or Adeline) Chinn Johnson and Imogene Chinn Johnson, whom he acknowledged and gave his surname. He provided for their education.[1][13] Both daughters married white men. Johnson gave them large farms as dowries from his own holdings

    For that matter, it’s also interesting to note that Jefferson’s relationship with Sally Hemings allegedly began while she was a free woman in Paris.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Another largely forgotten aspect of our history (and one that also persisted almost up until modern times) was the concept of "crossing the color line". If you were a very light skinned mulatto (say someone like Benjamin Jealous), you might move to another city, cut off contact with your "black" relatives (Madison Hemings was no longer in contact with his now "white" sister), marry a white person, have white children and disappear into white society. While your own siblings (perhaps those who came out a little darker) might stay black, marry another black and their descendants would be on the black side of the color line (albeit on the lighter end of the spectrum).

    Gates was able to figure out who one of his white ancestors was and he held a reunion for some of his descendants that was filmed for his show - some were fairly black , many were light skinned mulattoes (like Gates himself) and some were entirely white. The DNA that was used to connect Jefferson to the Hemings children came from someone descended from one of the Hemings who had crossed the color line, so they used a "white" guy to proved that Jefferson had slept with a "black"(actually Sally was 3/4 white).

    Also largely forgotten is that there was once a social distinction in the black community itself between the light skinned mulatto elite (who were often the descendants of the house slaves, who were, like Madison Hemings often able to read and write and had marketable skills like carpentry) and the darker masses who had been the field hands (Michael Brown types).

    Modernity has no room for such fine distinctions - we are back to the "one drop" rule - anyone who has even one drop of black blood can claim to be black and receive all of the affirmative action goodies that pertain thereto. Nobody is supposed to notice that Benjamin Jealous is probably 7/8 or more white - he is a brother in good standing.
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  130. Dahlia says:
    @candid_observer
    It's hard to make out how much of the story might have been made up by Erderly, and how much by Jackie. But I'd have to guess that it was almost entirely contrived by Jackie, but deliberately not verified by Erderly, who likely realized she was dealing with someone not entirely right in the head.

    So who would make up such an over-the-top story?

    Someone with Münchausen syndrome. If you've ever encountered such a person, you know how readily they will lie about anything, and how quickly they get to a point of absurdity in their details: they will say what seems to them best at getting the reaction they seek, completely untethered from reality.

    Probably the best sort of person to see through the lies is an Aspie, who doesn't react to the details with a cognitively crippling feeling of shock, and instead simply tries to match them to reality.

    I think everyone agrees that this is a fabrication, we’re just down to the nature and how of the lie(s).

    I stated in my very first post that something was wrong with the entire article and I stick by that. I won’t repeat everything I’ve said, but will highlight the two biggest problems (that I remember from just one reading) that point to malfeasance on the part of either the journalist or Emily what’s her name or both… or others(?):

    The glass bottle shattering “Jackie’s” head incident plus the evasive, odd way it is written. The part about Emily and “two separate incidents” is awkward and seems to be in there to try to explain away something rather than illuminate the reader. Aside from the fact that it reads like terrible fiction, this “two separate incidents” and Emily is the most damning thing in the entire article.

    The other is getting the seasons of the pledges wrong. It seems to gall and baffle UVA alumni that this could be gotten wrong by any (real) student.

    I will remain out on that limb that says we’re being Glass’ed.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    There's a real emphasis on glass, broken and in bottle form, through out the write-up. It's part of the literary power of the text that sucked so many people in.
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  131. @Dahlia
    I think everyone agrees that this is a fabrication, we're just down to the nature and how of the lie(s).

    I stated in my very first post that something was wrong with the entire article and I stick by that. I won't repeat everything I've said, but will highlight the two biggest problems (that I remember from just one reading) that point to malfeasance on the part of either the journalist or Emily what's her name or both... or others(?):

    The glass bottle shattering "Jackie's" head incident plus the evasive, odd way it is written. The part about Emily and "two separate incidents" is awkward and seems to be in there to try to explain away something rather than illuminate the reader. Aside from the fact that it reads like terrible fiction, this "two separate incidents" and Emily is the most damning thing in the entire article.

    The other is getting the seasons of the pledges wrong. It seems to gall and baffle UVA alumni that this could be gotten wrong by any (real) student.

    I will remain out on that limb that says we're being Glass'ed.

    There’s a real emphasis on glass, broken and in bottle form, through out the write-up. It’s part of the literary power of the text that sucked so many people in.

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    • Replies: @Dahlia
    I've been thinking *it*, too, but wanted to hold on before going even farther out onto that limb :) Yeah, the real Stephen Glass was on her mind me thinks.

    BTW, here is, in my opinion, the most damning thing in the article (and I beg of everyone, quit focusing like a laser on the rape. It's been done. To death. There's so much else here...)

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. "I feel like it's one in three at UVA," she says.

    But payback for being so public on a campus accustomed to silence was swift. This past spring, in separate incidents, both Emily Renda and Jackie were harassed outside bars on the Corner by men who recognized them from presentations and called them "cunt" and "feminazi bitch." One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.

    She e-mailed Eramo so they could discuss the attack – and discuss another matter, too, which was troubling Jackie a great deal. Through her ever expanding network, Jackie had come across something deeply disturbing: two other young women who, she says, confided that they, too, had recently been Phi Kappa Psi gang-rape victims.

    A bruise still mottling her face, Jackie sat in Eramo's office in May 2014 and told her about the two others.

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#ixzz3KlRZnlC9
    Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

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  132. The back of an envelope says that around 300 poor whites and 900 blacks were lynched in the South back in the day because of rape claims by pampered white Southern women perched on their pedestals of privilege. That’s 1200 men killed because of rape claims. How many of these do you suppose were false claims. How many times did a black man ignore a Southern white woman’s advances and in revenge she claimed rape? How many times did Southern white woman seduce a poor white or black man only to claim rape once caught by their white husbands, fathers, or brothers? How many times just out of pure spite did a privileged white Southern woman pronounce a death penalty on a poor white or black man just because she could? We just don’t know but surely we are talking at a minimum of 10% and probably much more.

    Given Southern privileged white women’s horrific history of false rape charges that directly helped perpetuate the American shame of lynching, it is totally unacceptable in this day and age for once again a privileged Southern white women to expect her claims rape, now from her protected pedestal erected by Rape-Crisis Feminism, to be just accepted at face value and not be investigated.

    Jackie needs to climb down from her pedestal and start naming names and giving clear facts.

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    • Replies: @peterike
    back in the day because of rape claims by pampered white Southern women perched on their pedestals of privilege. That’s 1200 men killed because of rape claims. How many of these do you suppose were false claims.

    I'd guess "almost none."
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  133. Dahlia says:
    @Steve Sailer
    There's a real emphasis on glass, broken and in bottle form, through out the write-up. It's part of the literary power of the text that sucked so many people in.

    I’ve been thinking *it*, too, but wanted to hold on before going even farther out onto that limb :) Yeah, the real Stephen Glass was on her mind me thinks.

    BTW, here is, in my opinion, the most damning thing in the article (and I beg of everyone, quit focusing like a laser on the rape. It’s been done. To death. There’s so much else here…)

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.

    But payback for being so public on a campus accustomed to silence was swift. This past spring, in separate incidents, both Emily Renda and Jackie were harassed outside bars on the Corner by men who recognized them from presentations and called them “cunt” and “feminazi bitch.” One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.

    She e-mailed Eramo so they could discuss the attack – and discuss another matter, too, which was troubling Jackie a great deal. Through her ever expanding network, Jackie had come across something deeply disturbing: two other young women who, she says, confided that they, too, had recently been Phi Kappa Psi gang-rape victims.

    A bruise still mottling her face, Jackie sat in Eramo’s office in May 2014 and told her about the two others.

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#ixzz3KlRZnlC9
    Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

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  134. Dahlia says:

    I’ve been thinking *it*, too, but wanted to hold on before going even farther out onto that limb :) Yeah, the real Stephen Glass was on her mind me thinks.

    BTW, here is, in my opinion, the most damning thing in the article (and I beg of everyone, quit focusing like a laser on the rape. It’s been done. To death. There’s so much else here…)

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.

    But payback for being so public on a campus accustomed to silence was swift. This past spring, in separate incidents, both Emily Renda and Jackie were harassed outside bars on the Corner by men who recognized them from presentations and called them “cunt” and “feminazi bitch.” One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.

    She e-mailed Eramo so they could discuss the attack – and discuss another matter, too, which was troubling Jackie a great deal. Through her ever expanding network, Jackie had come across something deeply disturbing: two other young women who, she says, confided that they, too, had recently been Phi Kappa Psi gang-rape victims.

    A bruise still mottling her face, Jackie sat in Eramo’s office in May 2014 and told her about the two others.

    Reposting as original included RS link and was called spam

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    And then the article goes on:

    "As Jackie wrapped up her story, she was disappointed by Eramo's nonreaction. She'd expected shock, disgust, horror. For months, Jackie had been assuaging her despair by throwing herself into peer education, but there was no denying her helplessness when she thought about Phi Psi, or about her own alleged assailants still walking the grounds. She'd recently been aghast to bump into Drew, who greeted her with friendly nonchalance. "For a whole year, I thought about how he had ruined my life, and how he is the worst human being ever," Jackie says. "And then I saw him and I couldn't say anything."

    "You look different," Drew told Jackie while she stared back at him in fear, and he was right: Since arriving at UVA, Jackie had gained 25 pounds from antidepressants and lack of exercise. That interaction would render her too depressed to leave her room for days. Of all her assailants, Drew was the one she wanted to see held accountable – but with Drew about to graduate, he was going to get away with it. Because, as she miserably reminded Eramo in her office, she didn't feel ready to file a complaint. Eramo, as always, understood.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#ixzz3KlbgE25j

    I'm writing up a Taki's article where I spell out what I think is going on.

    , @syonredux

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.
     
    Why stop there? Why not two thirds? Why not all?
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  135. @Dahlia
    @Steve Sailer

    I’ve been thinking *it*, too, but wanted to hold on before going even farther out onto that limb :) Yeah, the real Stephen Glass was on her mind me thinks.

    BTW, here is, in my opinion, the most damning thing in the article (and I beg of everyone, quit focusing like a laser on the rape. It’s been done. To death. There’s so much else here…)

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.

    But payback for being so public on a campus accustomed to silence was swift. This past spring, in separate incidents, both Emily Renda and Jackie were harassed outside bars on the Corner by men who recognized them from presentations and called them “cunt” and “feminazi bitch.” One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.

    She e-mailed Eramo so they could discuss the attack – and discuss another matter, too, which was troubling Jackie a great deal. Through her ever expanding network, Jackie had come across something deeply disturbing: two other young women who, she says, confided that they, too, had recently been Phi Kappa Psi gang-rape victims.

    A bruise still mottling her face, Jackie sat in Eramo’s office in May 2014 and told her about the two others.

    Reposting as original included RS link and was called spam

    And then the article goes on:

    “As Jackie wrapped up her story, she was disappointed by Eramo’s nonreaction. She’d expected shock, disgust, horror. For months, Jackie had been assuaging her despair by throwing herself into peer education, but there was no denying her helplessness when she thought about Phi Psi, or about her own alleged assailants still walking the grounds. She’d recently been aghast to bump into Drew, who greeted her with friendly nonchalance. “For a whole year, I thought about how he had ruined my life, and how he is the worst human being ever,” Jackie says. “And then I saw him and I couldn’t say anything.”

    “You look different,” Drew told Jackie while she stared back at him in fear, and he was right: Since arriving at UVA, Jackie had gained 25 pounds from antidepressants and lack of exercise. That interaction would render her too depressed to leave her room for days. Of all her assailants, Drew was the one she wanted to see held accountable – but with Drew about to graduate, he was going to get away with it. Because, as she miserably reminded Eramo in her office, she didn’t feel ready to file a complaint. Eramo, as always, understood.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#ixzz3KlbgE25j

    I’m writing up a Taki’s article where I spell out what I think is going on.

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    • Replies: @Dahlia
    Saw your comments at Bradley's latest post. Am looking very forward to your write-up. Curious what your take on all the glass allusions. I believe the author or a sidekick, somebody, has mostly fabricated this and that she was "leaking". Someone had pointed out that Sabrina had written about Stephen Glass before (not that that by itself means a whole lot).
    , @Sean
    What is going on with the motivation of a journalist is one thing, the verity of the source is another. Lots of genuine rape victims give odd accounts of what happened. Anyway, Jackie could be (and probably is) telling the truth as Jackie sees it. If she is saying she was raped you can't say she is lying.
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  136. tony_k says:

    “Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the “blacks” (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given.”

    This is something that has always annoyed me. Even if you accept as a given that “their ancestors being raped by white men”, those white men are Gates and Patrick’s ancestors – not mine. Until the late 1840s, ALL of my ancestors were mucking around Ireland. Why are the crimes of Gates and Patrick’s gr-gr-gr-grandparents being laid at my feet?

    Why should I, or the tens of millions of other Americans that are in the same boat, feel guilty about the sins of the ancestors of Gates and Patrick? They proudly claim the legacy of victimhood of some of their ancestors but ignore the legacy of the ones they don’t like. Too bad. They are the ones with slaveholder blood, not me.

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    • Replies: @Dahlia
    Steve,
    I saw your comments at Bradley's latest post. I'll be looking very forward to your write-up.
    , @syonredux

    This is something that has always annoyed me. Even if you accept as a given that “their ancestors being raped by white men”, those white men are Gates and Patrick’s ancestors – not mine. Until the late 1840s, ALL of my ancestors were mucking around Ireland. Why are the crimes of Gates and Patrick’s gr-gr-gr-grandparents being laid at my feet?

    Why should I, or the tens of millions of other Americans that are in the same boat, feel guilty about the sins of the ancestors of Gates and Patrick? They proudly claim the legacy of victimhood of some of their ancestors but ignore the legacy of the ones they don’t like. Too bad. They are the ones with slaveholder blood, not me.
     
    The standard response is that all White people are guilty because they all share in White Privilege. I once saw a Jewish classmate of mine try the same tactic ("My ancestors were in Poland while all this was going on. Why should I feel guilty, etc"), and the Professor came down on him like a ton of bricks ("As a White man you can walk down the streets and not be harassed by the cops. As a White man, you can turn on the TV and see nothing but people who look like you. As a White man, you are judged as an individual, not as a group," etc). The PC police love it when White people try the Ellis Island card.
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  137. syonredux says:

    RE; Jefferson and Sally Hemings,
    Slavery seems oddly tangential to the whole thing.It begins, after all, in Paris, where Sally is a free woman.Hence, what we have here is an entanglement between a servant girl and her older, wealthy, world famous employer, who is also a widower.It’s a harlequin romance avant la lettre. Indeed, the fact that Sally was also the half-sister of Jefferson’s dead wife (did they resemble one another?) adds a nice Gothic frisson to the whole thing.

    Then she becomes pregnant*, and Jefferson is recalled to the USA to become America’s first Secretary of State.Sally is in a quandary.Stay in Paris as a free woman or go back to Virginia and be a slave. Lets look at the pros and the cons of it:

    Staying in Paris: Freedom for herself and her child.Which also means living as a single mother amidst the Parisian proletariat.That future looks rather bleak. Endless labor.Marriage, perhaps, to some Parisian layabout.

    Back to Virginia: Living as the concubine of the wealthy, famous, and powerful Thomas Jefferson.A man who is going to be Secretary of State.

    * Allegedly. We only have Madison’s word on this point

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  138. Dahlia says:
    @tony_k
    "Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the “blacks” (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given."

    This is something that has always annoyed me. Even if you accept as a given that "their ancestors being raped by white men", those white men are Gates and Patrick's ancestors - not mine. Until the late 1840s, ALL of my ancestors were mucking around Ireland. Why are the crimes of Gates and Patrick's gr-gr-gr-grandparents being laid at my feet?

    Why should I, or the tens of millions of other Americans that are in the same boat, feel guilty about the sins of the ancestors of Gates and Patrick? They proudly claim the legacy of victimhood of some of their ancestors but ignore the legacy of the ones they don't like. Too bad. They are the ones with slaveholder blood, not me.

    Steve,
    I saw your comments at Bradley’s latest post. I’ll be looking very forward to your write-up.

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  139. syonredux says:
    @tony_k
    "Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the “blacks” (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given."

    This is something that has always annoyed me. Even if you accept as a given that "their ancestors being raped by white men", those white men are Gates and Patrick's ancestors - not mine. Until the late 1840s, ALL of my ancestors were mucking around Ireland. Why are the crimes of Gates and Patrick's gr-gr-gr-grandparents being laid at my feet?

    Why should I, or the tens of millions of other Americans that are in the same boat, feel guilty about the sins of the ancestors of Gates and Patrick? They proudly claim the legacy of victimhood of some of their ancestors but ignore the legacy of the ones they don't like. Too bad. They are the ones with slaveholder blood, not me.

    This is something that has always annoyed me. Even if you accept as a given that “their ancestors being raped by white men”, those white men are Gates and Patrick’s ancestors – not mine. Until the late 1840s, ALL of my ancestors were mucking around Ireland. Why are the crimes of Gates and Patrick’s gr-gr-gr-grandparents being laid at my feet?

    Why should I, or the tens of millions of other Americans that are in the same boat, feel guilty about the sins of the ancestors of Gates and Patrick? They proudly claim the legacy of victimhood of some of their ancestors but ignore the legacy of the ones they don’t like. Too bad. They are the ones with slaveholder blood, not me.

    The standard response is that all White people are guilty because they all share in White Privilege. I once saw a Jewish classmate of mine try the same tactic (“My ancestors were in Poland while all this was going on. Why should I feel guilty, etc”), and the Professor came down on him like a ton of bricks (“As a White man you can walk down the streets and not be harassed by the cops. As a White man, you can turn on the TV and see nothing but people who look like you. As a White man, you are judged as an individual, not as a group,” etc). The PC police love it when White people try the Ellis Island card.

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  140. Dahlia says:
    @Steve Sailer
    And then the article goes on:

    "As Jackie wrapped up her story, she was disappointed by Eramo's nonreaction. She'd expected shock, disgust, horror. For months, Jackie had been assuaging her despair by throwing herself into peer education, but there was no denying her helplessness when she thought about Phi Psi, or about her own alleged assailants still walking the grounds. She'd recently been aghast to bump into Drew, who greeted her with friendly nonchalance. "For a whole year, I thought about how he had ruined my life, and how he is the worst human being ever," Jackie says. "And then I saw him and I couldn't say anything."

    "You look different," Drew told Jackie while she stared back at him in fear, and he was right: Since arriving at UVA, Jackie had gained 25 pounds from antidepressants and lack of exercise. That interaction would render her too depressed to leave her room for days. Of all her assailants, Drew was the one she wanted to see held accountable – but with Drew about to graduate, he was going to get away with it. Because, as she miserably reminded Eramo in her office, she didn't feel ready to file a complaint. Eramo, as always, understood.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#ixzz3KlbgE25j

    I'm writing up a Taki's article where I spell out what I think is going on.

    Saw your comments at Bradley’s latest post. Am looking very forward to your write-up. Curious what your take on all the glass allusions. I believe the author or a sidekick, somebody, has mostly fabricated this and that she was “leaking”. Someone had pointed out that Sabrina had written about Stephen Glass before (not that that by itself means a whole lot).

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  141. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco
    since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Since when has it been established that he did? The genetic testing was done on descendents of one of Sally Hemings' many children and merely demonstrated that a male Jefferson was an ancestor. It did not identify which male Jefferson.

    There are a number of details that point in that direction, such as the fact that Jefferson was in residence at Monticello at the time each of the Hemings children would have been conceived. Madison Hemings was very matter of fact about the idea that Jefferson was his father and that of his other siblings. He had no particular reason to lie. He mentioned, again very matter of factly, that the children of his grandmother had more than 1 father – some white, some black. If some other Jefferson had been their father, it would have been more difficult to understand the extremely generous treatment that they received from Thomas.

    Again, people are conceiving this as “rape” where the slave had no say in the matter, but concubinage was a much more complex nuanced relationship than is implied by the word “rape” (just as most of these campus sexual assaults (aside from the probably fictional UVA rape) are not really “rape” either). Most slaveholding (and many other) societies have a separate category for concubines or mistresses. The woman is not your quite legal wife but she is far from a rape victim – she is someone that you may spend your entire life with. Her children are not your legitimate offspring but they are still your children and you bear some responsibility for them. We just don’t have mental categories for these relationships, for several reasons: 1. The relationships, by their nature, were not publicly documented or discussed so the historical record is thin. 2. White women were probably never thrilled by the idea that they were in competition with sexy mulattas who were more caring and made fewer demands on their men. 3. In modern times, the left has corrupted the dialog so that every male – female relationship is automatically assumed to be “rape” and that every white-black relationship is automatically “exploitation” by the white. 4. In modern times, blacks have become much more ghettoized and the average SWPL can’t conceive of having a relationship with some ghetto ho’ , nor is she interested in consorting with any hated crackers. In the Old South, blacks and whites lived in close proximity and their cultures were much closer to each other.

    These kind of relationships existed in the South almost up to modern times (e.g. Strom Thurmond – the Southern “racist” who had a lifelong relationship with his illegitimate “black” (very light skinned mulatto) daughter).

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right.

    In New Orleans it was more open. A major factor in the history of American popular music was that about a dozen mulatto youths from New Orleans in the later 19th Century were sent by their doting rich white fathers to study musical composition in Paris. These guys brought back world class musical sophistication to New Orleans. Culturally, they were kind of the grandfathers of jazz.

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  142. Sean says:
    @Steve Sailer
    And then the article goes on:

    "As Jackie wrapped up her story, she was disappointed by Eramo's nonreaction. She'd expected shock, disgust, horror. For months, Jackie had been assuaging her despair by throwing herself into peer education, but there was no denying her helplessness when she thought about Phi Psi, or about her own alleged assailants still walking the grounds. She'd recently been aghast to bump into Drew, who greeted her with friendly nonchalance. "For a whole year, I thought about how he had ruined my life, and how he is the worst human being ever," Jackie says. "And then I saw him and I couldn't say anything."

    "You look different," Drew told Jackie while she stared back at him in fear, and he was right: Since arriving at UVA, Jackie had gained 25 pounds from antidepressants and lack of exercise. That interaction would render her too depressed to leave her room for days. Of all her assailants, Drew was the one she wanted to see held accountable – but with Drew about to graduate, he was going to get away with it. Because, as she miserably reminded Eramo in her office, she didn't feel ready to file a complaint. Eramo, as always, understood.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#ixzz3KlbgE25j

    I'm writing up a Taki's article where I spell out what I think is going on.

    What is going on with the motivation of a journalist is one thing, the verity of the source is another. Lots of genuine rape victims give odd accounts of what happened. Anyway, Jackie could be (and probably is) telling the truth as Jackie sees it. If she is saying she was raped you can’t say she is lying.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A fair number of people retcon their memories to have them jibe with the way they feel. It's less delusion than semi-logical -- I remember late September 2012 as a horrible time. What must have happened that makes me feel so bad? Maybe X happened? But the people I tell that X happened to me don't seem to be responding with the shock I expected. Perhaps X and Y happened? Why not X, Y, and Z all happening? Yes, it all makes sense now.
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  143. syonredux says:
    @Dahlia
    @Steve Sailer

    I’ve been thinking *it*, too, but wanted to hold on before going even farther out onto that limb :) Yeah, the real Stephen Glass was on her mind me thinks.

    BTW, here is, in my opinion, the most damning thing in the article (and I beg of everyone, quit focusing like a laser on the rape. It’s been done. To death. There’s so much else here…)

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.

    But payback for being so public on a campus accustomed to silence was swift. This past spring, in separate incidents, both Emily Renda and Jackie were harassed outside bars on the Corner by men who recognized them from presentations and called them “cunt” and “feminazi bitch.” One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.

    She e-mailed Eramo so they could discuss the attack – and discuss another matter, too, which was troubling Jackie a great deal. Through her ever expanding network, Jackie had come across something deeply disturbing: two other young women who, she says, confided that they, too, had recently been Phi Kappa Psi gang-rape victims.

    A bruise still mottling her face, Jackie sat in Eramo’s office in May 2014 and told her about the two others.

    Reposting as original included RS link and was called spam

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.

    Why stop there? Why not two thirds? Why not all?

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  144. @Sean
    What is going on with the motivation of a journalist is one thing, the verity of the source is another. Lots of genuine rape victims give odd accounts of what happened. Anyway, Jackie could be (and probably is) telling the truth as Jackie sees it. If she is saying she was raped you can't say she is lying.

    A fair number of people retcon their memories to have them jibe with the way they feel. It’s less delusion than semi-logical — I remember late September 2012 as a horrible time. What must have happened that makes me feel so bad? Maybe X happened? But the people I tell that X happened to me don’t seem to be responding with the shock I expected. Perhaps X and Y happened? Why not X, Y, and Z all happening? Yes, it all makes sense now.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    I have read that jazz was invented by a schizophrenic white man.

    Question : has it been established that the all the 'frat boy' alleged assailants of jackie are white?

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  145. @Jack D
    There are a number of details that point in that direction, such as the fact that Jefferson was in residence at Monticello at the time each of the Hemings children would have been conceived. Madison Hemings was very matter of fact about the idea that Jefferson was his father and that of his other siblings. He had no particular reason to lie. He mentioned, again very matter of factly, that the children of his grandmother had more than 1 father - some white, some black. If some other Jefferson had been their father, it would have been more difficult to understand the extremely generous treatment that they received from Thomas.

    Again, people are conceiving this as "rape" where the slave had no say in the matter, but concubinage was a much more complex nuanced relationship than is implied by the word "rape" (just as most of these campus sexual assaults (aside from the probably fictional UVA rape) are not really "rape" either). Most slaveholding (and many other) societies have a separate category for concubines or mistresses. The woman is not your quite legal wife but she is far from a rape victim - she is someone that you may spend your entire life with. Her children are not your legitimate offspring but they are still your children and you bear some responsibility for them. We just don't have mental categories for these relationships, for several reasons: 1. The relationships, by their nature, were not publicly documented or discussed so the historical record is thin. 2. White women were probably never thrilled by the idea that they were in competition with sexy mulattas who were more caring and made fewer demands on their men. 3. In modern times, the left has corrupted the dialog so that every male - female relationship is automatically assumed to be "rape" and that every white-black relationship is automatically "exploitation" by the white. 4. In modern times, blacks have become much more ghettoized and the average SWPL can't conceive of having a relationship with some ghetto ho' , nor is she interested in consorting with any hated crackers. In the Old South, blacks and whites lived in close proximity and their cultures were much closer to each other.

    These kind of relationships existed in the South almost up to modern times (e.g. Strom Thurmond - the Southern "racist" who had a lifelong relationship with his illegitimate "black" (very light skinned mulatto) daughter).

    Right.

    In New Orleans it was more open. A major factor in the history of American popular music was that about a dozen mulatto youths from New Orleans in the later 19th Century were sent by their doting rich white fathers to study musical composition in Paris. These guys brought back world class musical sophistication to New Orleans. Culturally, they were kind of the grandfathers of jazz.

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  146. @Lucius Somesuch
    @Paleo Retiree: I have, on at least a couple of occasions, watched "Heaven's Gate" in the 3h 40 min cut twice in 48 hours, and in perfect honesty I can say the film holds my rapt attention better now than, say, "Doctor Zhivago".

    Cimino is certainly a megalomaniac--Oliver Stone called him "the most Napoleonic director I've ever met"-- and of course it's readily conceivable (though I've read Stephen Bach's book and he for one, as far as I recall, never cast the aspersion) he was a cokehead, but--

    I mean, no one calls David Lean or Luchino Visconti a cokehead. Coppola cops to trying coke all of four times (this before he went on anti-depressants and started doing chamber productions like "One from the heart" and "The Cotton Club").

    Impressive as it is that you were at that screening, I can't but think ill of you for not steeling yourself against that foul mood of anti-Ciminoism.

    I showed "Heaven's Gate" to The Love Of My Life on July 14, 2006 (Bastille Day; and a year and a day later she "needed to talk", so I recall the date well). Knowing well the odds after punishing her with Bergman this and Rohmer that, I just told her before we started that she would hate it.

    When it was finished, she told me, unsolicited, that it was the most beautiful movie she'd ever seen. When I repeated Canby's "four hour forced-march around my living room" snark to her, she winced in horror.

    F**k Vincent Canby.

    I haven’t given you my own reaction to “Heaven’s Gate,” I’ve only let you know what the mood at the screening was like. People just didn’t like the film. I didn’t have the impression that anyone in attendance had any animus against Cimino. They were hoping to enjoy the film, and then couldn’t believe what an overblown (if often impressive and beautiful) mess Cimino had delivered. The film didn’t start acquiring a rep as a misunderstood masterpiece until some French critics took it up — they seemed to like its semi-Marxist message. And then some American filmgeeks picked up on their idea.

    I think it’s common knowledge that Cimino was going thru mountains of cocaine at the time. Why would anyone accuse Lean or Visconti of being a ’70s or ’80s-style cokehead, btw? I haven’t read bios of the two guys so have no idea if they ever indulged, but judging from their movies they were clearly never out of control and out of their skulls on the drug, the way Cimino by all accounts was.

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    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "I think it’s common knowledge that Cimino was going thru mountains of cocaine at the time. "

    The Making of Heaven's Gate:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmAAEntLaYI
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  147. Priss Factor [AKA "dna turtles"] says:
    @Jack D
    The reason American Thai restaurants are mediocre is because the customers are mostly white. There aren't enough Thai people in America to sustain most Thai restaurants. The vast improvement in Chinese restaurants in big cities in America (from "chop suey" to very authentic) has come about because there is a large Chinese customer base to keep the chefs honest. In areas where there still aren't many Chinese, it's still mostly slop.

    “The vast improvement in Chinese restaurants in big cities in America”

    Gimme a break. True, Chinese food did get better from 1970s to 1990s, but it hasn’t improved since then. For one thing, there are too many, and they serve the same crap.
    Sure, there are fancy Chinese places in some cities, but most Chinese food in most places isn’t much better than frozen dinner after it’s been in microwave.

    If anything, too many Chinese immigrants meant too many Chinese restaurants, and they all dish out the same formula.
    The place where I go to for chop suey is pretty decent but only for carryouts.
    Some say chop suey is really American, but I say it’s the best Chinese dish in the world. It tastes honest.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    If you are thinking of becoming a restaurant critic, don't quit your day job.

    The main hint that a Chinese restaurant is authentic is that most of the clientele is also Chinese. Obviously you are not going to find this in a suburban strip mall in an area without a large Chinese population. If you eat at such an authentic establishment (and order off of the real Chinese menu - many such restaurants have alternate menus for white people) you will get food that closely resembles what would be served at a comparable restaurant in China. I can say this with a great deal of confidence from personal experience.

    Notice that I said "authentic" and not "good". There's no accounting for taste. Some people even like chop suey. A lot of authentic Chinese dishes are more about texture than taste and often are prized because they have mythological connections or supposed health benefits. So things like shark's fin and bird's nest which are highly valued by the Chinese, are just bleh to Westerners for whom they don't resonate. OTOH, a well roasted Peking duck is good eats no matter who or where you are.
    , @Ivy
    University towns, especially on the west coast, benefitted from the influx of Chinese students.

    The usual bland Cantonese fare (e.g., chop suey, chow mein) got competition from Sichuan and Hunan recipes that were new, tasty (hot peppers make an entrance) and cheap.
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  148. Sean says:
    @Steve Sailer
    A fair number of people retcon their memories to have them jibe with the way they feel. It's less delusion than semi-logical -- I remember late September 2012 as a horrible time. What must have happened that makes me feel so bad? Maybe X happened? But the people I tell that X happened to me don't seem to be responding with the shock I expected. Perhaps X and Y happened? Why not X, Y, and Z all happening? Yes, it all makes sense now.

    I have read that jazz was invented by a schizophrenic white man.

    Question : has it been established that the all the ‘frat boy’ alleged assailants of jackie are white?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    No, it was pitch black, except when it wasn't.
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  149. Dahlia says:

    More:

    Perusing the comments at Bradley’s and had my memory triggered about the atrocious fight/rape song that is interwoven throughout the article and is said to be sung by an a cappella group in public. If I recall, there is no attribution given to where the author learned of it (but maybe there was, pretty sure it had nothing to do with “Jackie”). Here’s one comment, but I’ve seen multiple alums say they, nor anyone they know, has heard of it:

    I am a UVa alum, and a human being, so the Rolling Stone article cut me to the core. Let me say upfront that I am not a rape apologist and that I believe the story COULD be true. But one thing that stood out to me after I finished reading was the author’s use of the “rape song”, woven verse by verse throughout the article. I spent four years on that campus relatively recently and have never heard of that song. After talking to probably 15 schoolmates, I have found exactly one person who thinks it sounds sort of familiar. There is no way the Virginia Gentlemen, the school’s a cappella group mentioned in the article, perform that song in public (and if you read the sentence in which the author claims this, she says they sing “verses” of it, which probably means the original unoffensive version, whatever that is.) So while I don’t know anything about the veracity of the rest of the article’s claims, I do know that the author presented that song as being a beloved and integral part of UVa life when I know for a fact that that isn’t true. That made me question what else she had embellished.

    Like I’ve said before, there is so much wrong in this article and the “rape” is only a sliver of it.

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  150. Rapparee says:
    @Jack D
    Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the "blacks" (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men - this was taken as a given.

    Everyone on the show… seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given.

    The archetypal Virginia gentleman rode about on horseback with flawless posture, armed with sword and pistol, and dressed in the finest bright clothing; from his mount, he gave orders to everyone in sight while expecting (and generally receiving) immediate obedience. He brooked no insults from any man, dueling at the drop of a hat if he felt his honor slighted, insisted on being addressed deferentially by his inferiors, and was considered within his rights to shamelessly flirt with any woman not another cavalier’s wife. Despite his great station, he would distribute his wealth freely in true cavalier fashion, giving gifts whenever he pleased and not worrying a bit about his gambling losses.

    Clearly, no low-status woman would ever find herself attracted to such a man.

    (I often wonder how much the African-American “Pimp” archetype owes to the Cavalier culture of the old tidewater South. Flashy clothes, a predilection for violently avenging minor disrespect, ostentatious overspending, relentless womanizing, disdain for mercantile and manual trades, living off the labor of others… the list goes on).

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  151. @Sean
    I have read that jazz was invented by a schizophrenic white man.

    Question : has it been established that the all the 'frat boy' alleged assailants of jackie are white?

    No, it was pitch black, except when it wasn’t.

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  152. Dahlia says:

    I found this from the Cavalier Daily and it’s a beauty. Rest assured those other lyrics that nobody knows where they came from were NOTHING like the known ones. Zachary Seid, president of the Glee Club, says he was contacted by Erdely who was seeking the whole fight/rape/drinking song because she suspected that there were more than two verses to the song. He says he was surprised to see in the Rolling Stone article that there were other verses… they were all suprised:

    “Rugby Road” is the title of the group’s 2010 album. A rendition of the song can be hear on the VG’s 2003 50th Anniversary album, Gold.

    “I was surprised it was so long,” Desphande said on the number of verses referenced in the Rolling Stone article. He said he spoke with some Virginia Gentlemen alumni who “were shocked.”

    “[They] thought it was only two verses long,” he said.

    Desphande said the song was originally performed by the Glee Club, which included The Virginia Gentlemen members until the 1980s.

    “The Glee Club has only ever sung the first two verses,” Seid said. “The Rolling Stone article was the first time I’d ever heard of the others.”

    The other verses mentioned in the article are more sexually explicit and mention some sororities by name.

    Seid said Erdely contacted him in September to ask for the whole song, which she believed to be more than just the first two verses.

    Seid said he is not sure when the Glee Club added the song to its repertoire.

    “We have about as much institutional memory as any other CIO,” Seid said.

    The Glee Club has sung the song for at least 12 years — as long as the choir’s current conductor has been with the University. The group did not pen the song’s lyrics.

    “I believe that it’s up to everyone to determine what the song is about for themselves,” Seid said.

    Seid said it can be seen as “a fun-spirited drinking song” which does not imply lack of consent, but noted the Glee Club has gone back and forth on whether they wanted to sing the song in a public setting even before the publication of the Rolling Stone article.

    Here are the first two verses.
    The first verse reads: “From Rugby Road to Vinegar Hill, we’re gonna get drunk tonight/ The faculty’s afraid of us; they know we’re in the right/ So fill your cups, your loving cups, as full as full can be/ For as long as love and liquor last we’ll drink to the U. of V.”

    The second verse, meanwhile, reads: “All you girls from Mary Washington/ And R.M.W.C., never let a Cavalier an inch above your knee/ He’ll take you to his fraternity house and fill you full of beer/ And soon you’ll be the mother of a bastard Cavalier!”

    http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2014/11/university-glee-club-temporarily-retires-rugby-road

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  153. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    Recently I saw one of the PBS programs hosted by Skip Gates, in which they trace the DNA of various famous people. Most of the “blacks” (really mulattoes like Deval Patrick) had a considerable % of European blood. Everyone on the show (Gates and his guests) seemed to assume that this could only have been the result of their ancestors being raped by white men – this was taken as a given.
     
    I'm sure that some were raped, but I'm also quite sure that some were not:

    Richard Mentor Johnson (October 17, 1780 or 1781[a] – November 19, 1850) was the ninth Vice President of the United States, serving in the administration of Martin Van Buren (1837–1841). He is the only vice president ever elected by the United States Senate under the provisions of the Twelfth Amendment. Johnson also represented Kentucky in the U.S. House of Representatives and Senate; he began and ended his political career in the Kentucky House of Representatives.

    After his father died, Richard Johnson inherited Julia Chinn, an octoroon slave (one-eighth African, seven-eighths European in ancestry).[12] Johnson began a relationship with her and treated her as his common-law wife. They were prohibited from marrying because she was a slave.[13] When Johnson was away from his Kentucky plantation, he authorized Chinn to manage his business affairs.[2] She died in an epidemic of cholera in the summer of 1833.[1]

    Johnson and Chinn had two daughters, Adaline (or Adeline) Chinn Johnson and Imogene Chinn Johnson, whom he acknowledged and gave his surname. He provided for their education.[1][13] Both daughters married white men. Johnson gave them large farms as dowries from his own holdings
     
    For that matter, it's also interesting to note that Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemings allegedly began while she was a free woman in Paris.

    Another largely forgotten aspect of our history (and one that also persisted almost up until modern times) was the concept of “crossing the color line”. If you were a very light skinned mulatto (say someone like Benjamin Jealous), you might move to another city, cut off contact with your “black” relatives (Madison Hemings was no longer in contact with his now “white” sister), marry a white person, have white children and disappear into white society. While your own siblings (perhaps those who came out a little darker) might stay black, marry another black and their descendants would be on the black side of the color line (albeit on the lighter end of the spectrum).

    Gates was able to figure out who one of his white ancestors was and he held a reunion for some of his descendants that was filmed for his show – some were fairly black , many were light skinned mulattoes (like Gates himself) and some were entirely white. The DNA that was used to connect Jefferson to the Hemings children came from someone descended from one of the Hemings who had crossed the color line, so they used a “white” guy to proved that Jefferson had slept with a “black”(actually Sally was 3/4 white).

    Also largely forgotten is that there was once a social distinction in the black community itself between the light skinned mulatto elite (who were often the descendants of the house slaves, who were, like Madison Hemings often able to read and write and had marketable skills like carpentry) and the darker masses who had been the field hands (Michael Brown types).

    Modernity has no room for such fine distinctions – we are back to the “one drop” rule – anyone who has even one drop of black blood can claim to be black and receive all of the affirmative action goodies that pertain thereto. Nobody is supposed to notice that Benjamin Jealous is probably 7/8 or more white – he is a brother in good standing.

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Eston Hemings:

    In 1832, Eston married a free woman of color, Julia Ann Isaacs (1814–1889). She was the daughter of the successful Jewish merchant David Isaacs, from Germany, and Ann (Nancy) West, a free woman of mixed race. Nancy West was the daughter of Priscilla, a former slave, and Thomas West, her white master. Thomas West left property to his children Nancy and James West in his will.[13] Prohibited by law from marrying, Isaacs and West maintained separate households and businesses for years (she was a successful baker.) They had seven children together, and later in their lives shared a household.[3][13][14]

    Eston and Julia Ann Hemings had three children: John Wayles Jefferson (1835–1892), Anne Wayles Jefferson (1836–1866), and Beverly Frederick Jefferson (1838–1908) (their surname was changed from Hemings to Jefferson as the family moved to Wisconsin after 1850). The first two were born in Charlottesville.

    About 1837 Hemings moved with his family to Chillicothe, a town in southwest Ohio (a free state) with a thriving community. Numerous free blacks and white abolitionists had support stations linked to the Underground Railroad to aid escaping slaves. There Hemings became a professional musician, playing the violin or fiddle and leading a successful dance band. The children were educated in integrated schools. Anna for a time attended the Manual Labor School at Albany, Ohio. A former classmate later wrote that she was introduced as "Miss Anna (or Ann) Heming[s] [sic], the grand daughter of Thomas Jefferson".[15]

    In a 1902 article of the Scioto Gazette, a correspondent wrote that while Hemings lived in Ohio in the 1840s, it was widely said that he and his brother Madison were the sons of Thomas Jefferson. In addition, several neighbors of Eston had traveled together to Washington, DC, where they saw a statue of Jefferson; they commented on how much Hemings resembled him. The correspondent also recollected:

    “Eston Hemings, being a master of the violin, and an accomplished "caller" of dances, always officiated at the "swell" entertainments of Chillicothe.”[16]


    The gravesite of Eston Hemings Jefferson in Madison, Wisconsin.
    Passage of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850 increased pressure on the black communities in Ohio and other free states bordering slave states. In towns along the Underground Railroad, slave catchers invaded the communities, sometimes kidnapping and selling into slavery free people as well as fugitive slaves.[17] In 1852 the Hemingses decided to move their family further north for security, and migrated to Madison, Wisconsin. There they took the surname Jefferson, and they passed into the European-American (white) community.[14] Eston Hemings Jefferson died in 1856.
     

    John Wayles Jefferson, born John Wayles Hemings (May 8, 1835 – July 12, 1892), was a successful businessman before and after the American Civil War, in which he served in the Union Army and was promoted to the rank of colonel. Jefferson owned a successful hotel in Madison, Wisconsin in the 1850s; after the Civil War he moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where he achieved wealth as a cotton broker. Jefferson is believed to be a grandson of Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States; his paternal grandmother was Sarah (Sally) Hemings, the president's mixed-race slave and half-sister to his late wife.

    Jefferson was the eldest son of Eston Hemings (1808–56), a former slave freed in Jefferson's will, who was seven-eighths European in ancestry and "white" under Virginia law, and Julia Ann (née Isaacs) Hemings (1814–1889), a free woman of color who was of three-quarters European descent. The Hemings moved from Charlottesville, Virginia to Chillicothe, Ohio in 1836. They moved to Madison, Wisconsin in 1852, where they took the surname Jefferson and entered the white community, where they were well accepted.
    Before the Civil War, John W. Jefferson operated the American House hotel in Madison, where he brought on his younger brother Beverly to help and learn the business.

    Military service[edit]
    At the age of 26, Jefferson entered the regular United States Army on August 26, 1861, at Madison, Wisconsin. He took command of the Wisconsin 8th Infantry during the American Civil War. On September 28, 1861 he was promoted to Major; to Lieutenant Colonel on April 23, 1863; and to Colonel on June 16, 1864. He fought in significant battles of the war and was wounded at Vicksburg and during the Siege of Corinth. He was mustered out of service on October 11, 1864 at Madison, Wisconsin. His brother, William Beverly Jefferson, also served as a white soldier in the Union Army.

    According to service records, John Jefferson had red hair and gray eyes (as did Thomas Jefferson).[1] Photographs show his strong resemblance to Thomas Jefferson.

    In 1902, a former neighbor from Chillicothe recalled John Jefferson's concerns about his mixed ancestry in the social climate of the times:

    ...and I saw and talked with one of the sons, during the Civil War, who was then wearing the silver leaves of a lieutenant colonel, and in command of a fine regiment of white men from a north-western state. He begged me not to tell the fact that he had colored blood in his veins, which he said was not suspected by any of his command; and of course I did not.[2]

    Post-war career[edit]
    Jefferson wrote as a newspaper correspondent during and after the war, publishing articles about his experiences. After the war, he moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where he became a highly successful cotton broker, founding the Continental Cotton Company.

    "He raised cotton in Arkansas and bred blooded trotting horses on his plantation near Memphis. Articles under his name in the Memphis Daily Avalanche cover such matters as improving streets, enlarging the city’s boundaries, and preventing cotton-warehouse fires."[3]

    Jefferson never married. He died on June 12, 1892. He was interred in Madison, Wisconsin, in the Jefferson family plot at Forest Hill Cemetery. He left a sizeable estate.

     


    Walter Beverly Pearson (December 2, 1861 - May 19, 1917) was an American inventor, industrialist and president of the Standard Screw Company. It became known as Stanadyne Automotive Corporation.[1]

    He is believed to have been an unacknowledged great-grandson of President Thomas Jefferson and his slave Sally Hemings, as he was a descendant of their son Eston Hemings.[2][3]

    Walter Pearson was born in Madison, Wisconsin during the American Civil War to Anna Wayles Hemings Jefferson (1836-1866) and her husband Albert T. Pearson (1829-1908) of New York state. Anna was a native of Virginia and the only surviving daughter of Eston Hemings Jefferson and his wife Julia Ann Isaacs. Albert worked as a carpenter in Madison; he served as a captain in the Union Army during the war. Walter had an older brother Fred and an older sister Julia. Their mother died prematurely, at the age of 30, when Walter was just four years old. The three children were educated in public schools.

    Pearson's maternal grandfather Eston Hemings Jefferson was born into slavery at Monticello. Seven-eighths European in ancestry, he was legally white under Virginia law and freed in 1826 by the will of his master (and father) Thomas Jefferson. Julia Ann Isaacs, a free woman of color, was of African, European-American and German-Jewish descent. They moved their family from Ohio to Wisconsin in 1852 for added security after passage of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. Although all their family was free, slave catchers often kidnapped and enslaved free blacks in those years, as well as capturing fugitive slaves.[4][5]

    In 1852 the Hemings family had changed their surname to Jefferson and entered the white community in Madison, Wisconsin. Anna Jefferson was 16 that year.[4] Both Anna and her brother Beverly Jefferson married white spouses, and all their descendants have identified as white.

    Pearson had gone into business in Chicago. By the late 19th century, he operated a small manufacturing company that made screws and developed technology which made his company valuable enough to sell to Standard Screw (based in Connecticut) in 1900. When appointed as president in 1904, Pearson soon doubled the company's subsidiaries from four to eight, increasing their skilled workforce and facilities. He led Standard Screw Company to dominance in the industry through the early twentieth century. Together with two other leaders, Pearson introduced the " 'new Standard Automatic,' a machine that reduced the cost of making screws nearly 40 percent."[1] In 1904 he reduced prices, which gave the company an edge with the new auto manufacturers, whose rapid expansion as an industry fed Standard's profits.[1]

    The coming of World War I led to a major increase in profits, as Pearson won contracts from the British and US governments for bullets and fuses. The 1916 profit was 10 times higher than the previous year, and returns increased by 340 percent in 1917. Pearson had established a dominance among companies that manufactured screw machine products; his skilled shops could make complex parts for many different industries, and held the edge for decades. Pearson was described as the company's "first outstanding leader."[1]
     

    Harriet Hemings (May, 1801-1870) was born into slavery at Monticello, the home of Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States, in the first year of his Presidency. Most historians believe her father is Jefferson, who is believed by many historians to have had a relationship with his mixed-race slave Sally Hemings, half-sister to his late wife. Harriet is one of Sally Hemings' four children who survived to adulthood.[1]

    While Jefferson did not legally free Harriet, in 1822 when she was 21, he aided her "escape". He saw that she was put in a stage coach and given $50 for her journey. Her brother Madison Hemings later said she had gone to Washington, DC to join their older brother Beverley Hemings, who had similarly left Monticello earlier that year. Both entered into white society and married white partners of good circumstances. Seven-eighths European in ancestry, all the Hemings children were legally white under contemporary Virginia law, although they were enslaved. Jefferson freed the two youngest brothers in his will of 1826, so they were legally free.

    Beverly and Harriet stayed in touch with their brother Madison Hemings for some time, and then Harriet stopped writing. According to his 1873 account, both siblings had children.
     
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  154. Sean says:

    Drew could be black for all we know? And he could have mislead the frat boys (black or white) about what she had consented to.

    It would certainly go some way to explaining why her friends were so chary of her pursuing the case.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Is the lifeguard job real or faked? I can't remember.
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  155. @Sean
    Drew could be black for all we know? And he could have mislead the frat boys (black or white) about what she had consented to.

    It would certainly go some way to explaining why her friends were so chary of her pursuing the case.

    Is the lifeguard job real or faked? I can’t remember.

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  156. @dearieme
    "A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford ..." Correction: the sole famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford.

    “A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford …” Correction: the sole famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford.

    Pitt Club, Cambridge.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    "Pitt Club, Cambridge." Not even famous in Cambridge.
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  157. Dahlia says:

    Where did those Rugby Road lyrics come from?! The ones beyond the first two verses that nobody, not the president of the Glee club or anybody else, has ever heard of? This needs to be asked now!

    I’m pretty sure I know where they came from, but will refrain from being profane :)

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  158. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.

    I graduated from an all-boys high school in Virginia a few years ago. In my senior year, we had a male group from UVA called “One in Four” come speak to the senior class. The name of the group was a reference to the statistic that supposedly one-in-four college women are raped. The group was all male and it was some sort of rape awareness group that went around high schools to speak to college bound male students about how one-in-four college women are raped and how rape is bad and we shouldn’t do it.

    I don’t really remember anything from the presentation other than a bunch of guys on stage wearing blue and orange (the UVA colors) shirts with “One in Four” emlazoned on them and repeating the “one-in-four” statistic claim over and over. They had some rehearsed skit where “one-in-four” was the refrain they kept repeating. They also said that since “one-in-four” college women are raped, we likely know or have encountered someone, if they’re a women who has gone to college, that has been raped, so you know, take it extra seriously and be sure not to rape anyone when you head off to college next year.

    At any rate, it was a pretty ridiculous presentation and the “one in four” thing seems like a completely bogus statistic.

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  159. I graduated from an elite southern university (not UVA) in the mid-90s. There was a certain well-known multicultural activist in my graduating class (well known on campus at the time, that is, she’s not well known now). At the very end of school I got curious and found her personal webpage. At the time the web was new and nobody looked too much at other people’s webpages. The personal webpages at the time were tied to one’s email ID, which were verifiable in the directory, so no doubt it was really hers.

    The point is: this woman was insane. Not insane in a glib, metaphorical way, but in a holy crap, she is absolutely batshit insane kind of way. The page had bizarre rants showing a tenuous hold on reality, a description of her time being forcibly confined in a mental institution, descriptions of acts committed by her “evil twin”, etc.

    I’m not saying you have to be an unhinged lunatic to be a prominent campus activist, but I would guess that unhinged lunatics are extremely overrepresented in the campus grievance industry leadership.

    (And probably in certain other areas too, but I’ll stay on topic.)

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  160. Jack D says:
    @Priss Factor
    "The vast improvement in Chinese restaurants in big cities in America"

    Gimme a break. True, Chinese food did get better from 1970s to 1990s, but it hasn't improved since then. For one thing, there are too many, and they serve the same crap.
    Sure, there are fancy Chinese places in some cities, but most Chinese food in most places isn't much better than frozen dinner after it's been in microwave.

    If anything, too many Chinese immigrants meant too many Chinese restaurants, and they all dish out the same formula.
    The place where I go to for chop suey is pretty decent but only for carryouts.
    Some say chop suey is really American, but I say it's the best Chinese dish in the world. It tastes honest.

    If you are thinking of becoming a restaurant critic, don’t quit your day job.

    The main hint that a Chinese restaurant is authentic is that most of the clientele is also Chinese. Obviously you are not going to find this in a suburban strip mall in an area without a large Chinese population. If you eat at such an authentic establishment (and order off of the real Chinese menu – many such restaurants have alternate menus for white people) you will get food that closely resembles what would be served at a comparable restaurant in China. I can say this with a great deal of confidence from personal experience.

    Notice that I said “authentic” and not “good”. There’s no accounting for taste. Some people even like chop suey. A lot of authentic Chinese dishes are more about texture than taste and often are prized because they have mythological connections or supposed health benefits. So things like shark’s fin and bird’s nest which are highly valued by the Chinese, are just bleh to Westerners for whom they don’t resonate. OTOH, a well roasted Peking duck is good eats no matter who or where you are.

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    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "Some people even like chop suey."

    American Chop Suey - White Trash Cooking

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81uLBFFHFNw
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  161. Priss Factor [AKA "dna turtles"] says:
    @Lucius Somesuch
    @Paleo Retiree: I have, on at least a couple of occasions, watched "Heaven's Gate" in the 3h 40 min cut twice in 48 hours, and in perfect honesty I can say the film holds my rapt attention better now than, say, "Doctor Zhivago".

    Cimino is certainly a megalomaniac--Oliver Stone called him "the most Napoleonic director I've ever met"-- and of course it's readily conceivable (though I've read Stephen Bach's book and he for one, as far as I recall, never cast the aspersion) he was a cokehead, but--

    I mean, no one calls David Lean or Luchino Visconti a cokehead. Coppola cops to trying coke all of four times (this before he went on anti-depressants and started doing chamber productions like "One from the heart" and "The Cotton Club").

    Impressive as it is that you were at that screening, I can't but think ill of you for not steeling yourself against that foul mood of anti-Ciminoism.

    I showed "Heaven's Gate" to The Love Of My Life on July 14, 2006 (Bastille Day; and a year and a day later she "needed to talk", so I recall the date well). Knowing well the odds after punishing her with Bergman this and Rohmer that, I just told her before we started that she would hate it.

    When it was finished, she told me, unsolicited, that it was the most beautiful movie she'd ever seen. When I repeated Canby's "four hour forced-march around my living room" snark to her, she winced in horror.

    F**k Vincent Canby.

    “When it was finished, she told me, unsolicited, that it was the most beautiful movie she’d ever seen.”

    How much coke did you supply her with?

    I have a soft spot for Heaven’s Gate too. I know it was trashed viciously when it came out, and the critical reaction was overly harsh. I think the reaction wasn’t only against the movie but to the whole auteur thing in the 1970s that’d blown out of proportion and run out of gas. By mid 70s, Altman, Friedkin, and others were turning out megalomaniac movies of their own. Altman made pompous stuff like Quintet. Friedkin made Sorcerer that, despite some amazing action scenes, was a confused mess. He ended the decade with Cruising, a sort of interesting but confused and demented movie. Scorsese made a huge stinker with New York New York. Peckinpah had crashed and burned. Coppola did gain respect with Atacolypse Now, but it was a very controversial movie and I recall the critical community was divided.

    Btw, the Lean film to compare with Heaven’s Gate is Ryan’s Daughter, a disaster for Lean critically and financially. Dr. Zhivago didn’t get good critical press but it was a mega-hit.

    There was also the critical backlash due to the huge success of Deer Hunter. Though a critical backlash eventually developed with Deer Hunter, many critics praised it and it won best picture at the Oscars. I think the critics who hated Deer Hunter was sharpening their knives for Heaven’s Gate. And critics who loved Deer Hunter expected another film as gripping and powerful.
    Deer Hunter is a mixed-bag movie but compelling cinema due to Deniro. And Streep’s performance is beautiful. Walken is spectacular(so much so that he somehow managed to survive a 100o russian roulette bouts in Saigon before Deniro came to take him back).
    But Heaven’s Gate is dramatically limp. Its center is a void, a sinkhole. It’s one thing to look at landscape paintings or photographs devoid of people, but movies with stories need characters. Trees, rivers, and mountains may look nice but they don’t tell stories. They are what they are.
    We want change and action in movies. Living things/beings have action. This is even true of history. Greek history is long and old, but we mostly fixate on the few centuries in BC period and why? Greeks did so much then(but then achieved almost nothing thereafter). They were dynamic. American history is only a few centuries old whereas some civilizations have histories that go back for 1000s of yrs. Yet, the world is captivated by American history because every single year of American history since the founding is more dynamic and exciting than 10o yrs in another civilization that was static. Characters make movies dynamic.
    Heaven’s Gate has the looks, but it’s static with characters, and because the characters don’t take center stage, the action(when it comes) seems superfluous. Who are fighting and do we really care? One could say the same for Pat Garret and Billy the Kid with Coburn and Kristofferson moping around like they’re on vacation. Still, we feel the delayed tension between friends, and they aren’t buried by production values gone out of control. But in Heaven’s Gate, for the life of me, I can’t really recall what any character did. I know there’s a big fight at the end, but they seemed to be marking time for most of the movie. It’s like a merry-go-around.

    But there are virtues. It meticulously brings to life a bygone time and place. One can call it poetic sociology. I like the scenes of immigrants dancing and making music and roller-skating(if indeed they did such a thing). It’s like listening to The Band. It has something of Malick’s Days of Heaven.
    It also has grandeur comparable to Leone’s ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST.
    Leone’s film was also a huge disaster in America(though a big hit in some places in Europe), and neglected by both audiences and critics. In time, it came to recognized as a classic. I saw the revival in 1986, and was very impressed. Seeing it again on dvd, I realized I wasn’t impressed enough. It is a titanic achievement. Some might say it too is slow and boring, but most critics have come around to recognizing its greatness. It is a great work of myth.
    Heaven’s Gate, on the other hand, has many good and even great things, but they don’t come together. It’s like a giant unfinished or ‘unfinishable’ puzzle. The pieces are nice but remain incongruous and apart. I saw it again on dvd not long ago and found much of it very impressive but the movie doesn’t come together in the way that Seven Samurai and Siberiade do. It’s more comparable to Bertolucci’s insane 1900. For some reason, Italians and Italian-Americans were going nuts with such huge-ass movies in the 1970s. Bertolucci could make a dramatically powerful movie. Last Tango has a great opening act and a spectacular last part beginning with Brando’s lamentation before his dead wife. But there’s a lot of stuff in the middle that I still cannot stomach much. But more often than not, Bertolucci was all about the look and style. The Conformist looks great but is shallow and vapid. But as a 2 hr movie and well-paced, so it’s enjoyable enough. But 1900, wow… It’s not without virtues but it’s heaping mess, a disaster. It’s like it doesn’t matter how great a ship or plane is if it’s sunk or fallen from the sky. We don’t admire ships or airplanes for their lone/disparate parts but for their wholeness and effectiveness. A crashed plane may still have an impressive wing and other parts strewn all over the place, but it’s no longer useful as a plane. 1900 is like that. Okay, it’s big and impressive in parts, but it’s like rummaging through the twin towers after 9/11.
    Heaven’s Gate just sprawls all over the place. It’s like watching the waves in the Fukushima tsunami. It’s a beautiful movie but beauty turned into The Blob that overflows all over the place into every crevice and drowns out everything with The Look.

    Heaven’s Gate is also confused because Cimino tries to work in two opposing modes: realism and mythicism. Once Upon a Time in the West works as a great myth. No one would mistake it for any kind of reality. In contrast, Heaven’s Gate, with its great attention to details and presentation of hardships, tries to be anti-mythic. It seems to say the real West wasn’t like ‘cowboys and indians’ but really like THIS as shown by Cimino. We seen horrible violence, much attention to misery and hardship.
    But then, as he overloads it with so much beauty, glittering sunlight on water, mountain scapes, panoramic shots, grand vistas, and etc—all in gold-lit nostalgia—, it is also an mega-attempt at myth-making. So, are we seeing realism or romanticism? You got me. It’s like a giant golden mantlepiece loaded with dirt, grime, and dust. Walter Hill proved with Long Riders that one doesn’t need a mega-canvas to recreate a lost time and place. You don’t have to show everything and then some.
    Problem with Cimino is he not only had to show everything but even more that had nothing to do with the story. It’s like, did he really have to shoot in the Northwest Rockies in Deer Hunter when the men are clearly going hunting in the Appalachias? Did he have to make the men of the small town Russian to invoke Tolstoy? Deer Hunter works better but it too teeters between gritty realism and hyper-grandiloquent-ism.
    Deer Hunter is best when intimate, worst when it goes for epic scale. It could have settled for small tragedy that would have been more effective, but it goes for that Great Tragic Moment–and you know it’s coming(you know the final shot is gonna blow his head away)!!! … though I must say the ending with ‘God bless America’ is done beautifully.
    Heaven’s Gate is beyond epic. It’s extraneous epic. Some might accuse Jan Troell of the same with Emigrants and New Land. It’s true that Troell piles details upon details, but Troell never loses his sense of scale and focus. He’s dealing intimately with the stuff of everyday life, so details matter. With Cimino, it’s like the details are meant to form into something like Sistine Chapel. But you can’t use realism that way. Realism is the wrong element for epic grandeur or romanticism. It’s why Bob Dylan and the Band didn’t try to turn Basement Tapes into an opera.
    I think the homokin Robin Wood was crazy about Heaven’s Gate because it was so ripe with aestheticism(even when it toned down on that stuff). Fruits love that stuff. The Western made by a window-dresser. Imagine My Darling Clementine directed by Max Ophuls(esp of Lola Montez).
    It’s why Tree of Life is so terrible. It’s why George Steven’s Greatest Story Ever Told is ludicrous. It goes for scale beyond scale for a subject that doesn’t call for such. Like Stevens, Cimino wasn’t just drawing inspiration from history but from the entire history of art(as if to capture every tone and mode of the history of painting from Renaissance to the Impressionism) and history of cinema, as if his films would the final summation of all the styles explored by earlier artists. He goes going for broke like Griffith with Intolerance, and United Artists surely did go broke. (I think Griffith was one of its founders.)

    I don’t think too highly of Beatty’s REDS but it’s all of one piece. Like it or not, it’s a nostalgia-peddling of American romance with Bolshevism. If icky-boy Ken Burns ever made an epic feature film, it’d be something like Reds. Though Beatty isn’t a commanding actor, he is very much at the center of the movie and has a certain charm. Gorgeous man for one thing.
    Especially when a movie is big and grand, it needs a strong/appealing character to hold everything together, to provide a gravitational force. Heaven’s Gate has no such center, and the various threads must meander and go off in all directions like so many rivers and streams.
    And even though it’s vaguely about the conflict between good guys and bad guys, there are huge stretches in the movie when it seems to be entirely about something else. It’s a movie that keeps taking vacations from itself. There are side stories in Seven Samurai too, but they are all relate to the larger story of the war with bandits. But I’m not sure what the love triangle in Heaven’s Gate has to do with the main conflict at hand. But hey, Cimino just felt like throwing it in there—maybe as a nod to the love triangle in the Deer Hunter.

    Without strong/memorable/striking personalities, epics can seem laborious. I think Right Stuff has problems–much of the film seems more like logistics than film-making–but the personalities came to the rescue. I love Ed Harris, Scott Glenn, Dennis Quaid and others in it. I think they went up against Kaufman in the same way the real astronauts went up against the NASA program. Kaufman must have been caught up in the grand project, and there was the danger that characters would be overshadowed by production values. But Wolfe’s lively storytelling and the charisma of actors made the movie work… though the audiences disagreed as it was a huge box office bomb.

    But what were the guys in Heaven’s Gate on? Pot? They seem so out of it. Such lanky acting can work in a small-scale movie like Hired Hand with Peter Fonda. Even if actors aren’t powerful, they are gonna dominate the threadbare production. But when the production is huge, you need actors/characters strong enough to take center stage. Kristofferson was likable and not without talent, but as an actor he lacked energy. He looked like some burnt out hickory log that had no fire left in it. It’s like what his character says in Convoy: Melissa: “But they’re all following you.” Rubberduck(Kristofferson) “No, they ain’t. I’m just in front of them.” Passive leadership. You can’t have that in an epic.
    One could argue… what about Dr. Zhivago? Zhivago is a passive character. True, but the real heart of the movie is in the romance. History is the backdrop. And we feel the power of the love between zhivago and lara from the first time he sets eyes on her. We know he’s smitten from that moment to the final moment when he dies calling out to her. But everyone in Heaven’s Gate seems passive in love as well in war. Also, the film lacks shape. Blade Runner failed with critics and audiences for similar reasons. They said it was all Look and no story and character. But they were wrong. In retrospect, if you get in the right mood, Blade Runner works like magic. Also, it’s shaped and constructed well in terms of plot and choreography. The final battle scene in Heaven’s Gate is impressive but a total mess. It’s like the Russian version of War and Peace(released in the 1960s) that is all over the place. And by golly, that goes on for over 9 hrs thus more interminable than Heaven’s Gate — though I must say it has some great battle scenes.

    And then there’s the problem of the theme. A lot of people didn’t like Ragtime but its all-too-palpable theme gives it a kick, a charge. It’s a kind of Freudian take on history. Jewish guy is driven mad by his cheating wife. Negro’s male pride is hurt by death of his wife. The younger brother turns to terrorism(by aiding the negroes) because the woman he loves rejects him. A rich woman’s son kills a rich man(Norman Mailer) for disgracing his wife. The uptight wasp loses the moral and thus sexual respect of his woman who runs off with the Jewish guy who’s remade himself into a famous movie maker. Beavis would have said ‘boing’ over and over. Agree or disagree with this vision of history, it’s all held together by the boing-ness of it all. But Heaven’s Gate is like a giant phallus that is limp and deflated. I mean the size doesn’t matter if it can’t get erect, and heaven’s gate is impotent. Cimino offered the body massage, bath, ointment, food, and etc, etc, but he left out the viagra. A lot of care went into the movie but the crucial thing is missing. It’s like going through the big trouble of fixing up a grand old car but leaving the tires flat. It aint going nowhere. Heaven’s Gate is like John Holmes who can’t get it up. It’s big but just hanging.

    That said, I don’t hate the movie, and I’m glad that it’s been given a second chance. And I prefer it to stuff like There Will Be Blood.

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  162. peterike says:
    @Torn and Frayed
    The back of an envelope says that around 300 poor whites and 900 blacks were lynched in the South back in the day because of rape claims by pampered white Southern women perched on their pedestals of privilege. That’s 1200 men killed because of rape claims. How many of these do you suppose were false claims. How many times did a black man ignore a Southern white woman’s advances and in revenge she claimed rape? How many times did Southern white woman seduce a poor white or black man only to claim rape once caught by their white husbands, fathers, or brothers? How many times just out of pure spite did a privileged white Southern woman pronounce a death penalty on a poor white or black man just because she could? We just don’t know but surely we are talking at a minimum of 10% and probably much more.

    Given Southern privileged white women’s horrific history of false rape charges that directly helped perpetuate the American shame of lynching, it is totally unacceptable in this day and age for once again a privileged Southern white women to expect her claims rape, now from her protected pedestal erected by Rape-Crisis Feminism, to be just accepted at face value and not be investigated.

    Jackie needs to climb down from her pedestal and start naming names and giving clear facts.

    back in the day because of rape claims by pampered white Southern women perched on their pedestals of privilege. That’s 1200 men killed because of rape claims. How many of these do you suppose were false claims.

    I’d guess “almost none.”

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Because no woman would ever lie about rape?


    Here's at least one, after around 30 seconds of googling:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Duluth_lynchings

    In the North but otherwise a classic lynching scenario .

    I'm sure there are more. The FBI says that around 8% of rape accusations are false.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics
    , @Torn and Frayed
    Maybe, maybe not. In any case, as you might suspect, I'm more interested in attacking Rape-Crisis Feminism from the Left and so personally I am willing to concede quite a high percentage on that point. Feminists are armed and ready to take on direct frontal assaults from the right and these hits only reinforce their cohesion. But go indirect by sending your tanks around the mountain range and attack their vulnerable left flanks and suddenly they start to crumble at once.

    For example, did you know what the Founding Mother of Rape-Crisis Feminism, Rebecca Latimer Felton, had to say on the subject?

    Felton also advocated more lynchings of black men, saying that such was “elysian” compared to the rape of white women. On at least one occasion, she stated that white Southerners should “lynch a thousand [black men] a week if it becomes necessary” to “protect woman’s dearest possession.”
     
    How is this thinking much different than the current trope of "Rape Culture" except that now the Feminist targets are blonde preppy fratboys? I think Rape-Crisis Feminists need to not only own up to to the racist antecedents of their movement's past, but also need to have it pointed out to them that atoning for this is not achieved by simply swapping the skin color of their targeted out-group.
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  163. peterike says:
    @YSV Ro
    Same thing is true for pretty much every non-European cuisine. Any half-baked white culinary school graduate could open an Indian or Chinese place that’s ten times better than 95% of the places run by Indians and Chinese..

    You seem to have incredibly bland taste in food. You sound exactly like those SWPL "foodies" whose claims of cultural knowledge and refinement in culinary assessment sound simply comical.
    Of all the idiotic claims of whites doing foreign stuff better than foreigners, this is the worst!

    I have eaten at these Indian and Chinese places run by if not homosexual then incredibly effete and weird white guys and let me tell it is (highly)over priced slop. The naans have no texture, the biryanis have zero flavor. And dont give me this balderdash of minimalism. You want to be a minimalist? Stick to Japanese cuisine

    Mind you, this is not a excuse for open borders at all. I am in favor in pre 1965 style quotas and Im from India. Sure you can have ethnic restaurants with far few immigrants but the white run ethnic restaurant will only cater to culinary philistines like yourself.
    Im sure the country will get by just fine without the culinary diversity and the strings attached that come with it. But let us not make idiotic and chauvinistic claims which even a half cosmopolitan individual will find impossible to believe.

    You seem to have incredibly bland taste in food.

    Rather not, old boy!

    Of all the idiotic claims of whites doing foreign stuff better than foreigners, this is the worst!

    Your experience is yours, mine is mine.

    I have eaten at these Indian and Chinese places run by if not homosexual then incredibly effete and weird white guys and let me tell it is (highly)over priced slop.

    My experience is that these “effete and weird white guys” take a hell of a lot more care in how they source their ingredients and how they put their food together. As opposed to the standard mystery meat in most Indian, Chinese and Mexican places, monotone flavor provided by goopy sauces.

    And dont give me this balderdash of minimalism.

    Who mentioned that? Though actually, a cleanly produced dish where you can taste the individual ingredients and it’s not all melded together into a saucy, salty mess… well what’s so bad about that?

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  164. Jack D says:
    @peterike
    back in the day because of rape claims by pampered white Southern women perched on their pedestals of privilege. That’s 1200 men killed because of rape claims. How many of these do you suppose were false claims.

    I'd guess "almost none."

    Because no woman would ever lie about rape?

    Here’s at least one, after around 30 seconds of googling:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Duluth_lynchings

    In the North but otherwise a classic lynching scenario .

    I’m sure there are more. The FBI says that around 8% of rape accusations are false.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Because no woman would ever lie about rape?

    Here’s at least one, after around 30 seconds of googling:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Duluth_lynchings

    In the North but otherwise a classic lynching scenario
     
    According to Wikipedia, the woman didn't claim she was raped. Someone else did.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    The FBI says that around 8% of rape accusations are false.
     
    The veracity of this figure, and the wisdom of applying the statute of limitations, would be a fun topic to bring up in Iowa's Democratic caucuses a year from now.
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  165. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    Another largely forgotten aspect of our history (and one that also persisted almost up until modern times) was the concept of "crossing the color line". If you were a very light skinned mulatto (say someone like Benjamin Jealous), you might move to another city, cut off contact with your "black" relatives (Madison Hemings was no longer in contact with his now "white" sister), marry a white person, have white children and disappear into white society. While your own siblings (perhaps those who came out a little darker) might stay black, marry another black and their descendants would be on the black side of the color line (albeit on the lighter end of the spectrum).

    Gates was able to figure out who one of his white ancestors was and he held a reunion for some of his descendants that was filmed for his show - some were fairly black , many were light skinned mulattoes (like Gates himself) and some were entirely white. The DNA that was used to connect Jefferson to the Hemings children came from someone descended from one of the Hemings who had crossed the color line, so they used a "white" guy to proved that Jefferson had slept with a "black"(actually Sally was 3/4 white).

    Also largely forgotten is that there was once a social distinction in the black community itself between the light skinned mulatto elite (who were often the descendants of the house slaves, who were, like Madison Hemings often able to read and write and had marketable skills like carpentry) and the darker masses who had been the field hands (Michael Brown types).

    Modernity has no room for such fine distinctions - we are back to the "one drop" rule - anyone who has even one drop of black blood can claim to be black and receive all of the affirmative action goodies that pertain thereto. Nobody is supposed to notice that Benjamin Jealous is probably 7/8 or more white - he is a brother in good standing.

    Eston Hemings:

    In 1832, Eston married a free woman of color, Julia Ann Isaacs (1814–1889). She was the daughter of the successful Jewish merchant David Isaacs, from Germany, and Ann (Nancy) West, a free woman of mixed race. Nancy West was the daughter of Priscilla, a former slave, and Thomas West, her white master. Thomas West left property to his children Nancy and James West in his will.[13] Prohibited by law from marrying, Isaacs and West maintained separate households and businesses for years (she was a successful baker.) They had seven children together, and later in their lives shared a household.[3][13][14]

    Eston and Julia Ann Hemings had three children: John Wayles Jefferson (1835–1892), Anne Wayles Jefferson (1836–1866), and Beverly Frederick Jefferson (1838–1908) (their surname was changed from Hemings to Jefferson as the family moved to Wisconsin after 1850). The first two were born in Charlottesville.

    About 1837 Hemings moved with his family to Chillicothe, a town in southwest Ohio (a free state) with a thriving community. Numerous free blacks and white abolitionists had support stations linked to the Underground Railroad to aid escaping slaves. There Hemings became a professional musician, playing the violin or fiddle and leading a successful dance band. The children were educated in integrated schools. Anna for a time attended the Manual Labor School at Albany, Ohio. A former classmate later wrote that she was introduced as “Miss Anna (or Ann) Heming[s] [sic], the grand daughter of Thomas Jefferson”.[15]

    In a 1902 article of the Scioto Gazette, a correspondent wrote that while Hemings lived in Ohio in the 1840s, it was widely said that he and his brother Madison were the sons of Thomas Jefferson. In addition, several neighbors of Eston had traveled together to Washington, DC, where they saw a statue of Jefferson; they commented on how much Hemings resembled him. The correspondent also recollected:

    “Eston Hemings, being a master of the violin, and an accomplished “caller” of dances, always officiated at the “swell” entertainments of Chillicothe.”[16]

    The gravesite of Eston Hemings Jefferson in Madison, Wisconsin.
    Passage of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850 increased pressure on the black communities in Ohio and other free states bordering slave states. In towns along the Underground Railroad, slave catchers invaded the communities, sometimes kidnapping and selling into slavery free people as well as fugitive slaves.[17] In 1852 the Hemingses decided to move their family further north for security, and migrated to Madison, Wisconsin. There they took the surname Jefferson, and they passed into the European-American (white) community.[14] Eston Hemings Jefferson died in 1856.

    John Wayles Jefferson, born John Wayles Hemings (May 8, 1835 – July 12, 1892), was a successful businessman before and after the American Civil War, in which he served in the Union Army and was promoted to the rank of colonel. Jefferson owned a successful hotel in Madison, Wisconsin in the 1850s; after the Civil War he moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where he achieved wealth as a cotton broker. Jefferson is believed to be a grandson of Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States; his paternal grandmother was Sarah (Sally) Hemings, the president’s mixed-race slave and half-sister to his late wife.

    Jefferson was the eldest son of Eston Hemings (1808–56), a former slave freed in Jefferson’s will, who was seven-eighths European in ancestry and “white” under Virginia law, and Julia Ann (née Isaacs) Hemings (1814–1889), a free woman of color who was of three-quarters European descent. The Hemings moved from Charlottesville, Virginia to Chillicothe, Ohio in 1836. They moved to Madison, Wisconsin in 1852, where they took the surname Jefferson and entered the white community, where they were well accepted.
    Before the Civil War, John W. Jefferson operated the American House hotel in Madison, where he brought on his younger brother Beverly to help and learn the business.

    Military service[edit]
    At the age of 26, Jefferson entered the regular United States Army on August 26, 1861, at Madison, Wisconsin. He took command of the Wisconsin 8th Infantry during the American Civil War. On September 28, 1861 he was promoted to Major; to Lieutenant Colonel on April 23, 1863; and to Colonel on June 16, 1864. He fought in significant battles of the war and was wounded at Vicksburg and during the Siege of Corinth. He was mustered out of service on October 11, 1864 at Madison, Wisconsin. His brother, William Beverly Jefferson, also served as a white soldier in the Union Army.

    According to service records, John Jefferson had red hair and gray eyes (as did Thomas Jefferson).[1] Photographs show his strong resemblance to Thomas Jefferson.

    In 1902, a former neighbor from Chillicothe recalled John Jefferson’s concerns about his mixed ancestry in the social climate of the times:

    …and I saw and talked with one of the sons, during the Civil War, who was then wearing the silver leaves of a lieutenant colonel, and in command of a fine regiment of white men from a north-western state. He begged me not to tell the fact that he had colored blood in his veins, which he said was not suspected by any of his command; and of course I did not.[2]

    Post-war career[edit]
    Jefferson wrote as a newspaper correspondent during and after the war, publishing articles about his experiences. After the war, he moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where he became a highly successful cotton broker, founding the Continental Cotton Company.

    “He raised cotton in Arkansas and bred blooded trotting horses on his plantation near Memphis. Articles under his name in the Memphis Daily Avalanche cover such matters as improving streets, enlarging the city’s boundaries, and preventing cotton-warehouse fires.”[3]

    Jefferson never married. He died on June 12, 1892. He was interred in Madison, Wisconsin, in the Jefferson family plot at Forest Hill Cemetery. He left a sizeable estate.

    Walter Beverly Pearson (December 2, 1861 – May 19, 1917) was an American inventor, industrialist and president of the Standard Screw Company. It became known as Stanadyne Automotive Corporation.[1]

    He is believed to have been an unacknowledged great-grandson of President Thomas Jefferson and his slave Sally Hemings, as he was a descendant of their son Eston Hemings.[2][3]

    Walter Pearson was born in Madison, Wisconsin during the American Civil War to Anna Wayles Hemings Jefferson (1836-1866) and her husband Albert T. Pearson (1829-1908) of New York state. Anna was a native of Virginia and the only surviving daughter of Eston Hemings Jefferson and his wife Julia Ann Isaacs. Albert worked as a carpenter in Madison; he served as a captain in the Union Army during the war. Walter had an older brother Fred and an older sister Julia. Their mother died prematurely, at the age of 30, when Walter was just four years old. The three children were educated in public schools.

    Pearson’s maternal grandfather Eston Hemings Jefferson was born into slavery at Monticello. Seven-eighths European in ancestry, he was legally white under Virginia law and freed in 1826 by the will of his master (and father) Thomas Jefferson. Julia Ann Isaacs, a free woman of color, was of African, European-American and German-Jewish descent. They moved their family from Ohio to Wisconsin in 1852 for added security after passage of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. Although all their family was free, slave catchers often kidnapped and enslaved free blacks in those years, as well as capturing fugitive slaves.[4][5]

    In 1852 the Hemings family had changed their surname to Jefferson and entered the white community in Madison, Wisconsin. Anna Jefferson was 16 that year.[4] Both Anna and her brother Beverly Jefferson married white spouses, and all their descendants have identified as white.

    Pearson had gone into business in Chicago. By the late 19th century, he operated a small manufacturing company that made screws and developed technology which made his company valuable enough to sell to Standard Screw (based in Connecticut) in 1900. When appointed as president in 1904, Pearson soon doubled the company’s subsidiaries from four to eight, increasing their skilled workforce and facilities. He led Standard Screw Company to dominance in the industry through the early twentieth century. Together with two other leaders, Pearson introduced the ” ‘new Standard Automatic,’ a machine that reduced the cost of making screws nearly 40 percent.”[1] In 1904 he reduced prices, which gave the company an edge with the new auto manufacturers, whose rapid expansion as an industry fed Standard’s profits.[1]

    The coming of World War I led to a major increase in profits, as Pearson won contracts from the British and US governments for bullets and fuses. The 1916 profit was 10 times higher than the previous year, and returns increased by 340 percent in 1917. Pearson had established a dominance among companies that manufactured screw machine products; his skilled shops could make complex parts for many different industries, and held the edge for decades. Pearson was described as the company’s “first outstanding leader.”[1]

    Harriet Hemings (May, 1801-1870) was born into slavery at Monticello, the home of Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States, in the first year of his Presidency. Most historians believe her father is Jefferson, who is believed by many historians to have had a relationship with his mixed-race slave Sally Hemings, half-sister to his late wife. Harriet is one of Sally Hemings’ four children who survived to adulthood.[1]

    While Jefferson did not legally free Harriet, in 1822 when she was 21, he aided her “escape”. He saw that she was put in a stage coach and given $50 for her journey. Her brother Madison Hemings later said she had gone to Washington, DC to join their older brother Beverley Hemings, who had similarly left Monticello earlier that year. Both entered into white society and married white partners of good circumstances. Seven-eighths European in ancestry, all the Hemings children were legally white under contemporary Virginia law, although they were enslaved. Jefferson freed the two youngest brothers in his will of 1826, so they were legally free.

    Beverly and Harriet stayed in touch with their brother Madison Hemings for some time, and then Harriet stopped writing. According to his 1873 account, both siblings had children.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "For that matter, it’s also interesting to note that Jefferson’s relationship with Sally Hemings allegedly began while she was a free woman in Paris."

    As Ann Coulter and others have noted, there is no way to know if the Hemmings were fathered by Thomas Jefferson or else his younger brother Randolf, who was fond of socializing with slaves.

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  166. Jefferson says:

    “Nobody is supposed to notice that Benjamin Jealous is probably 7/8 or more white – he is a brother in good standing.”

    I see a resemblance between Benjamin Jealous and Vince Vaughn.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    There are probably quite a few American whites who are 1/16th or so black and have no idea. Bliss Broyard was the daughter of New Yorker writer Anatole Broyard, a Louisiana Creole who crossed the color line when his family moved to Brooklyn. Supposedly she grew up not knowing that she had any African ancestry. She was told shortly before her father died but probably in many other families these secrets were taken to the grave. Of course nowadays, it is no shameful secret - she is happy and proud that she is really black. Maybe now her kids can get into college as AA admits! At the very least, she got a book out of it.

    https://alumni.uvm.edu/vq/spring2008/onedrop.asp
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  167. Jefferson says:

    “I once saw a Jewish classmate of mine try the same tactic (“My ancestors were in Poland while all this was going on. Why should I feel guilty, etc”), and the Professor came down on him like a ton of bricks (“As a White man you can walk down the streets and not be harassed by the cops. As a White man, you can turn on the TV and see nothing but people who look like you. As a White man, you are judged as an individual, not as a group,” etc). The PC police love it when White people try the Ellis Island card.”

    Since when did the Left Wing judge White people as individuals and not as a group ? I constantly see articles that blame White people as a group for poor schools and high poverty and high crime rates in the Hispanic and African American communities.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Since when did the Left Wing judge White people as individuals and not as a group ? I constantly see articles that blame White people as a group for poor schools and high poverty and high crime rates in the Hispanic and African American communities.
     
    He was saying that evil, racist Whites judge other Whites as individuals and not as groups.When racist Whites judge POC as a group, it's bad. When Leftist Whites and POC judge Conservative Whites as a group, it's good. Who-whom in action.
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  168. dearieme says:
    @Celt Darnell
    @slumber_j

    “A famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford …” Correction: the sole famous example is the Bullingdon Club at Oxford.

    Pitt Club, Cambridge.

    “Pitt Club, Cambridge.” Not even famous in Cambridge.

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  169. Renault says:
    @Anonymous
    The reason fraternities started back up at Princeton in the 80s is a woman named Sally Frank. The university went coed in 1970. All but 3 of the eating clubs went coed right away. The 3 holdouts were the most prestigious, and we all know how feminists feel about prestigious, all male clubs. Sally Frank sued all 3 in 1979. The first one caved in 86, but the last two made it to 91, when a court forced the issue, and created a new demand for exclusive, male only spaces.

    The feminists are firmly in control of the university now, thanks to recently retired President Shirley Tilghman, so finishing off fraternities is definitely on the agenda. It wouldn't surprise me if the school combined the UVA article with some recent events at Tiger Inn to reach their goal.

    The reason fraternities started back up at Princeton in the 80s is a woman named Sally Frank. The university went coed in 1970. All but 3 of the eating clubs went coed right away. The 3 holdouts were the most prestigious, and we all know how feminists feel about prestigious, all male clubs. Sally Frank sued all 3 in 1979. The first one caved in 86, but the last two made it to 91, when a court forced the issue, and created a new demand for exclusive, male only spaces.

    They should have done what Harvard’s final clubs did (successfully) — go completely private, and separate themselves from the school completely.

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  170. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @YSV Ro
    Same thing is true for pretty much every non-European cuisine. Any half-baked white culinary school graduate could open an Indian or Chinese place that’s ten times better than 95% of the places run by Indians and Chinese..

    You seem to have incredibly bland taste in food. You sound exactly like those SWPL "foodies" whose claims of cultural knowledge and refinement in culinary assessment sound simply comical.
    Of all the idiotic claims of whites doing foreign stuff better than foreigners, this is the worst!

    I have eaten at these Indian and Chinese places run by if not homosexual then incredibly effete and weird white guys and let me tell it is (highly)over priced slop. The naans have no texture, the biryanis have zero flavor. And dont give me this balderdash of minimalism. You want to be a minimalist? Stick to Japanese cuisine

    Mind you, this is not a excuse for open borders at all. I am in favor in pre 1965 style quotas and Im from India. Sure you can have ethnic restaurants with far few immigrants but the white run ethnic restaurant will only cater to culinary philistines like yourself.
    Im sure the country will get by just fine without the culinary diversity and the strings attached that come with it. But let us not make idiotic and chauvinistic claims which even a half cosmopolitan individual will find impossible to believe.

    It’s not just the ethnic eateries run by white guys, but also the trendier ethnic eateries run by ethnics that cater to SWPLs that tend to tone down and alter the food significantly. It’s only natural that they’re going to tailor their food for the primary customer base. SWPLs, and most people in general, don’t necessarily want the completely authentic cuisine, but a version of it that’s more in line with what they’re used to and comfortable with.

    They’re more like two distinct cuisines rather than the same cuisine. The SWPLized versions tend to be more savory, richer, and blander to cater to more American tastes.

    I’m a meat and potatoes guy, so I like the SWPL versions. But I also like the more exotic authentic versions.

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  171. Priss Factor [AKA "terrapin gape"] says:
    @Jack D
    If you are thinking of becoming a restaurant critic, don't quit your day job.

    The main hint that a Chinese restaurant is authentic is that most of the clientele is also Chinese. Obviously you are not going to find this in a suburban strip mall in an area without a large Chinese population. If you eat at such an authentic establishment (and order off of the real Chinese menu - many such restaurants have alternate menus for white people) you will get food that closely resembles what would be served at a comparable restaurant in China. I can say this with a great deal of confidence from personal experience.

    Notice that I said "authentic" and not "good". There's no accounting for taste. Some people even like chop suey. A lot of authentic Chinese dishes are more about texture than taste and often are prized because they have mythological connections or supposed health benefits. So things like shark's fin and bird's nest which are highly valued by the Chinese, are just bleh to Westerners for whom they don't resonate. OTOH, a well roasted Peking duck is good eats no matter who or where you are.

    “Some people even like chop suey.”

    American Chop Suey – White Trash Cooking

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    "American Chop Suey" is a completely misnamed dish. For some reason, it is (or was - I think it has pretty much faded away) the name in New England for a beef, tomato, macaroni and cheese concoction that is vaguely Italian (about as Italian as chop suey is Chinese). It is basically the same thing as the Beefaroni that comes in a can. I really can't understand how it got that name. To me, it's an indication that idiocracy is not a new phenomenon. One would hope that it was meant as some sort of ironic joke but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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  172. 691 says:

    Before you right that Taki’s Mag article, at Slate, they just posted a follow-up by Rosin and Benedikt to their podcast interview of Erdely. The interesting part is their description of UVA anti-sexual assault student organizations. They apparently have a rule against ever questioning a self-identified rape victim about the veracity or details of their alleged sexual assault.

    From what I gather, ‘Jackie’ has been somewhat open about this incident, it seems to a group in the double or triple digits. Since the alleged incident took place 2 years ago, it may be possible that some much less fantastic rape did take place against Jackie, but that as she shared her story again and again, she changed the details and exaggerated because she was never called out for the inconsistencies. One or two men turn into 7, etc…. By the time Erdely comes along, Jackie could still be suffering from the traumatic after effects of a rape, and thus justify Erdely’s conviction that “something happened”, but the supporting details are wildly inflated and bogus.

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  173. syonredux says:
    @Jefferson
    "I once saw a Jewish classmate of mine try the same tactic (“My ancestors were in Poland while all this was going on. Why should I feel guilty, etc”), and the Professor came down on him like a ton of bricks (“As a White man you can walk down the streets and not be harassed by the cops. As a White man, you can turn on the TV and see nothing but people who look like you. As a White man, you are judged as an individual, not as a group,” etc). The PC police love it when White people try the Ellis Island card."


    Since when did the Left Wing judge White people as individuals and not as a group ? I constantly see articles that blame White people as a group for poor schools and high poverty and high crime rates in the Hispanic and African American communities.

    Since when did the Left Wing judge White people as individuals and not as a group ? I constantly see articles that blame White people as a group for poor schools and high poverty and high crime rates in the Hispanic and African American communities.

    He was saying that evil, racist Whites judge other Whites as individuals and not as groups.When racist Whites judge POC as a group, it’s bad. When Leftist Whites and POC judge Conservative Whites as a group, it’s good. Who-whom in action.

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  174. HA says:
    @syonredux
    Eston Hemings:

    In 1832, Eston married a free woman of color, Julia Ann Isaacs (1814–1889). She was the daughter of the successful Jewish merchant David Isaacs, from Germany, and Ann (Nancy) West, a free woman of mixed race. Nancy West was the daughter of Priscilla, a former slave, and Thomas West, her white master. Thomas West left property to his children Nancy and James West in his will.[13] Prohibited by law from marrying, Isaacs and West maintained separate households and businesses for years (she was a successful baker.) They had seven children together, and later in their lives shared a household.[3][13][14]

    Eston and Julia Ann Hemings had three children: John Wayles Jefferson (1835–1892), Anne Wayles Jefferson (1836–1866), and Beverly Frederick Jefferson (1838–1908) (their surname was changed from Hemings to Jefferson as the family moved to Wisconsin after 1850). The first two were born in Charlottesville.

    About 1837 Hemings moved with his family to Chillicothe, a town in southwest Ohio (a free state) with a thriving community. Numerous free blacks and white abolitionists had support stations linked to the Underground Railroad to aid escaping slaves. There Hemings became a professional musician, playing the violin or fiddle and leading a successful dance band. The children were educated in integrated schools. Anna for a time attended the Manual Labor School at Albany, Ohio. A former classmate later wrote that she was introduced as "Miss Anna (or Ann) Heming[s] [sic], the grand daughter of Thomas Jefferson".[15]

    In a 1902 article of the Scioto Gazette, a correspondent wrote that while Hemings lived in Ohio in the 1840s, it was widely said that he and his brother Madison were the sons of Thomas Jefferson. In addition, several neighbors of Eston had traveled together to Washington, DC, where they saw a statue of Jefferson; they commented on how much Hemings resembled him. The correspondent also recollected:

    “Eston Hemings, being a master of the violin, and an accomplished "caller" of dances, always officiated at the "swell" entertainments of Chillicothe.”[16]


    The gravesite of Eston Hemings Jefferson in Madison, Wisconsin.
    Passage of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850 increased pressure on the black communities in Ohio and other free states bordering slave states. In towns along the Underground Railroad, slave catchers invaded the communities, sometimes kidnapping and selling into slavery free people as well as fugitive slaves.[17] In 1852 the Hemingses decided to move their family further north for security, and migrated to Madison, Wisconsin. There they took the surname Jefferson, and they passed into the European-American (white) community.[14] Eston Hemings Jefferson died in 1856.
     

    John Wayles Jefferson, born John Wayles Hemings (May 8, 1835 – July 12, 1892), was a successful businessman before and after the American Civil War, in which he served in the Union Army and was promoted to the rank of colonel. Jefferson owned a successful hotel in Madison, Wisconsin in the 1850s; after the Civil War he moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where he achieved wealth as a cotton broker. Jefferson is believed to be a grandson of Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States; his paternal grandmother was Sarah (Sally) Hemings, the president's mixed-race slave and half-sister to his late wife.

    Jefferson was the eldest son of Eston Hemings (1808–56), a former slave freed in Jefferson's will, who was seven-eighths European in ancestry and "white" under Virginia law, and Julia Ann (née Isaacs) Hemings (1814–1889), a free woman of color who was of three-quarters European descent. The Hemings moved from Charlottesville, Virginia to Chillicothe, Ohio in 1836. They moved to Madison, Wisconsin in 1852, where they took the surname Jefferson and entered the white community, where they were well accepted.
    Before the Civil War, John W. Jefferson operated the American House hotel in Madison, where he brought on his younger brother Beverly to help and learn the business.

    Military service[edit]
    At the age of 26, Jefferson entered the regular United States Army on August 26, 1861, at Madison, Wisconsin. He took command of the Wisconsin 8th Infantry during the American Civil War. On September 28, 1861 he was promoted to Major; to Lieutenant Colonel on April 23, 1863; and to Colonel on June 16, 1864. He fought in significant battles of the war and was wounded at Vicksburg and during the Siege of Corinth. He was mustered out of service on October 11, 1864 at Madison, Wisconsin. His brother, William Beverly Jefferson, also served as a white soldier in the Union Army.

    According to service records, John Jefferson had red hair and gray eyes (as did Thomas Jefferson).[1] Photographs show his strong resemblance to Thomas Jefferson.

    In 1902, a former neighbor from Chillicothe recalled John Jefferson's concerns about his mixed ancestry in the social climate of the times:

    ...and I saw and talked with one of the sons, during the Civil War, who was then wearing the silver leaves of a lieutenant colonel, and in command of a fine regiment of white men from a north-western state. He begged me not to tell the fact that he had colored blood in his veins, which he said was not suspected by any of his command; and of course I did not.[2]

    Post-war career[edit]
    Jefferson wrote as a newspaper correspondent during and after the war, publishing articles about his experiences. After the war, he moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where he became a highly successful cotton broker, founding the Continental Cotton Company.

    "He raised cotton in Arkansas and bred blooded trotting horses on his plantation near Memphis. Articles under his name in the Memphis Daily Avalanche cover such matters as improving streets, enlarging the city’s boundaries, and preventing cotton-warehouse fires."[3]

    Jefferson never married. He died on June 12, 1892. He was interred in Madison, Wisconsin, in the Jefferson family plot at Forest Hill Cemetery. He left a sizeable estate.

     


    Walter Beverly Pearson (December 2, 1861 - May 19, 1917) was an American inventor, industrialist and president of the Standard Screw Company. It became known as Stanadyne Automotive Corporation.[1]

    He is believed to have been an unacknowledged great-grandson of President Thomas Jefferson and his slave Sally Hemings, as he was a descendant of their son Eston Hemings.[2][3]

    Walter Pearson was born in Madison, Wisconsin during the American Civil War to Anna Wayles Hemings Jefferson (1836-1866) and her husband Albert T. Pearson (1829-1908) of New York state. Anna was a native of Virginia and the only surviving daughter of Eston Hemings Jefferson and his wife Julia Ann Isaacs. Albert worked as a carpenter in Madison; he served as a captain in the Union Army during the war. Walter had an older brother Fred and an older sister Julia. Their mother died prematurely, at the age of 30, when Walter was just four years old. The three children were educated in public schools.

    Pearson's maternal grandfather Eston Hemings Jefferson was born into slavery at Monticello. Seven-eighths European in ancestry, he was legally white under Virginia law and freed in 1826 by the will of his master (and father) Thomas Jefferson. Julia Ann Isaacs, a free woman of color, was of African, European-American and German-Jewish descent. They moved their family from Ohio to Wisconsin in 1852 for added security after passage of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. Although all their family was free, slave catchers often kidnapped and enslaved free blacks in those years, as well as capturing fugitive slaves.[4][5]

    In 1852 the Hemings family had changed their surname to Jefferson and entered the white community in Madison, Wisconsin. Anna Jefferson was 16 that year.[4] Both Anna and her brother Beverly Jefferson married white spouses, and all their descendants have identified as white.

    Pearson had gone into business in Chicago. By the late 19th century, he operated a small manufacturing company that made screws and developed technology which made his company valuable enough to sell to Standard Screw (based in Connecticut) in 1900. When appointed as president in 1904, Pearson soon doubled the company's subsidiaries from four to eight, increasing their skilled workforce and facilities. He led Standard Screw Company to dominance in the industry through the early twentieth century. Together with two other leaders, Pearson introduced the " 'new Standard Automatic,' a machine that reduced the cost of making screws nearly 40 percent."[1] In 1904 he reduced prices, which gave the company an edge with the new auto manufacturers, whose rapid expansion as an industry fed Standard's profits.[1]

    The coming of World War I led to a major increase in profits, as Pearson won contracts from the British and US governments for bullets and fuses. The 1916 profit was 10 times higher than the previous year, and returns increased by 340 percent in 1917. Pearson had established a dominance among companies that manufactured screw machine products; his skilled shops could make complex parts for many different industries, and held the edge for decades. Pearson was described as the company's "first outstanding leader."[1]
     

    Harriet Hemings (May, 1801-1870) was born into slavery at Monticello, the home of Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States, in the first year of his Presidency. Most historians believe her father is Jefferson, who is believed by many historians to have had a relationship with his mixed-race slave Sally Hemings, half-sister to his late wife. Harriet is one of Sally Hemings' four children who survived to adulthood.[1]

    While Jefferson did not legally free Harriet, in 1822 when she was 21, he aided her "escape". He saw that she was put in a stage coach and given $50 for her journey. Her brother Madison Hemings later said she had gone to Washington, DC to join their older brother Beverley Hemings, who had similarly left Monticello earlier that year. Both entered into white society and married white partners of good circumstances. Seven-eighths European in ancestry, all the Hemings children were legally white under contemporary Virginia law, although they were enslaved. Jefferson freed the two youngest brothers in his will of 1826, so they were legally free.

    Beverly and Harriet stayed in touch with their brother Madison Hemings for some time, and then Harriet stopped writing. According to his 1873 account, both siblings had children.
     

    “For that matter, it’s also interesting to note that Jefferson’s relationship with Sally Hemings allegedly began while she was a free woman in Paris.”

    As Ann Coulter and others have noted, there is no way to know if the Hemmings were fathered by Thomas Jefferson or else his younger brother Randolf, who was fond of socializing with slaves.

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  175. peterike says:

    Well here’s one good reason to prefer SWPL restaurants over “authentic” Chinese ones!

    http://nypost.com/2014/12/02/chinese-restaurants-horrible-way-of-defrosting-meat/

    You know things like sanitation, proper food handling, workers who don’t have weird diseases: these should enter the equation as well.

    And besides that, I don’t want to give my money to these damn invaders.

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  176. Jack D says:
    @Priss Factor
    "Some people even like chop suey."

    American Chop Suey - White Trash Cooking

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81uLBFFHFNw

    “American Chop Suey” is a completely misnamed dish. For some reason, it is (or was – I think it has pretty much faded away) the name in New England for a beef, tomato, macaroni and cheese concoction that is vaguely Italian (about as Italian as chop suey is Chinese). It is basically the same thing as the Beefaroni that comes in a can. I really can’t understand how it got that name. To me, it’s an indication that idiocracy is not a new phenomenon. One would hope that it was meant as some sort of ironic joke but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

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  177. jo s'more says:

    Given Southern privileged white women’s horrific history of false rape charges that directly helped perpetuate the American shame of lynching,

    What in the world are you talking about?

    Lynching isn’t uniquely American in any sense.

    Our usual due process, however, is far more unique.

    Anyway, more white criminals than black were lynched anyway.

    Lynching was pretty much done for the most egregious offenses to the community.

    The complaint against lynching is that the criminal is deprived of due process.

    The complaint is not that he was considered innocent by, well anyone, really.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    This is sort of begging the question, since "due process", i.e. a trial, is how we determine guilt in the first place. Many times people whom the mob thinks of as "obviously guilty" (e.g. the Duke lacrosse players) turn out not to be once they are given due process. If the "Gang of 88" were real men instead of worthless pencil pushers (and thank God they were not), they might have gotten a rope since of just signing a worthless petition, but their mentality was still the same as a lynch mob.


    There are some cases where there is no question of innocence (e.g. Jack Ruby shoots Lee Harvey Oswald on live TV before millions) but even in such cases, there are questions of state of mind that bear on whether the death penalty is appropriate. Maybe the criminal is insane or acted in the heat of passion? Lynch mobs do not allow for such subtlety.
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  178. The back of an envelope says that around 300 poor whites and 900 blacks were lynched in the South back in the day because of rape claims by pampered white Southern women perched on their pedestals of privilege.

    Oh? I’d like to see the back of this envelope you have.

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  179. Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic may not apply in Charlottesville. “I feel like it’s one in three at UVA,” she says.

    I dare say that one in three women at UVA (and most other colleges) have at some point been hit on by a guy in a fashion which they find crude and obnoxious. And that is the modern definition of “sexual assault”, so sure, I believe the one-in-three number.

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  180. “The consensus pick for the best Thai restaurant in America is Pok Pok”

    Puke Puke is horrid, possibly the worst restaurant I’ve ever eaten at in Portland. Pure hype. Check out the online reviews and you’ll see that most people agree with me. My local Thai joint beats the kimchi out of Puke Puke.

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    Kimchi? Is that Korean-Thai fusion? Or just confusion?
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  181. Jack D says:
    @Jefferson
    "Nobody is supposed to notice that Benjamin Jealous is probably 7/8 or more white – he is a brother in good standing."

    I see a resemblance between Benjamin Jealous and Vince Vaughn.

    There are probably quite a few American whites who are 1/16th or so black and have no idea. Bliss Broyard was the daughter of New Yorker writer Anatole Broyard, a Louisiana Creole who crossed the color line when his family moved to Brooklyn. Supposedly she grew up not knowing that she had any African ancestry. She was told shortly before her father died but probably in many other families these secrets were taken to the grave. Of course nowadays, it is no shameful secret – she is happy and proud that she is really black. Maybe now her kids can get into college as AA admits! At the very least, she got a book out of it.

    https://alumni.uvm.edu/vq/spring2008/onedrop.asp

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  182. “My ancestors were in Poland while all this was going on. Why should I feel guilty, etc”), and the Professor came down on him like a ton of bricks (“As a White man you can walk down the streets and not be harassed by the cops. As a White man, you can turn on the TV and see nothing but people who look like you. As a White man, you are judged as an individual, not as a group”

    I guess that professor was deficient in both irony and intellect, since he blatantly was judging a White man as part of a group and not as an individual.

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  183. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    A current story in Illinois is that the police now say a woman’s story about being attacked and stabbed while jogging in a forest preserve in Palatine last weekend is untrue and made up. When it happened it lead the news that night, a man described by her as a “bald Hispanic male with a black shirt and two piercings in his right ear” ran out of nowhere, stabbed her then took off. Fairly specific description and the woman did have a superficial stab wound. All made up, according to police, the wound being self-inflicted. Lots of mental cases out there.

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  184. Dahlia says:

    I just read Hanna Rosin’s article and a Jackie does exist. It looks like Steve may be closer on the mark with his theory that she is profoundly troubled not unlike Wolfe’s Charlotte Simmons. If so, she has been victimized twice, as well as the university.

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  185. Dahlia says:

    OTOH, Andrew Sullivan found a quote from someone with firsthand knowledge that accuses the author of making up quotes (perhaps like those Rugby Road lyrics), and misrepresenting the participants.

    I suspect we’ll know the truth soon enough.

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  186. Dahlia says:

    Final comment. There’s an article at c-ville that interviews some of the participants and they were dismayed and upset with Erdely. One of them was Emily Renda. I believe these people. They said they got used. They were.

    They even mentioned Rugby Road as not being plausible to anyone on campus!

    Glass’ed!

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  187. Ivy says:
    @Priss Factor
    "The vast improvement in Chinese restaurants in big cities in America"

    Gimme a break. True, Chinese food did get better from 1970s to 1990s, but it hasn't improved since then. For one thing, there are too many, and they serve the same crap.
    Sure, there are fancy Chinese places in some cities, but most Chinese food in most places isn't much better than frozen dinner after it's been in microwave.

    If anything, too many Chinese immigrants meant too many Chinese restaurants, and they all dish out the same formula.
    The place where I go to for chop suey is pretty decent but only for carryouts.
    Some say chop suey is really American, but I say it's the best Chinese dish in the world. It tastes honest.

    University towns, especially on the west coast, benefitted from the influx of Chinese students.

    The usual bland Cantonese fare (e.g., chop suey, chow mein) got competition from Sichuan and Hunan recipes that were new, tasty (hot peppers make an entrance) and cheap.

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  188. @Jack D
    Because no woman would ever lie about rape?


    Here's at least one, after around 30 seconds of googling:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Duluth_lynchings

    In the North but otherwise a classic lynching scenario .

    I'm sure there are more. The FBI says that around 8% of rape accusations are false.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics

    Because no woman would ever lie about rape?

    Here’s at least one, after around 30 seconds of googling:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Duluth_lynchings

    In the North but otherwise a classic lynching scenario

    According to Wikipedia, the woman didn’t claim she was raped. Someone else did.

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  189. @peterike
    back in the day because of rape claims by pampered white Southern women perched on their pedestals of privilege. That’s 1200 men killed because of rape claims. How many of these do you suppose were false claims.

    I'd guess "almost none."

    Maybe, maybe not. In any case, as you might suspect, I’m more interested in attacking Rape-Crisis Feminism from the Left and so personally I am willing to concede quite a high percentage on that point. Feminists are armed and ready to take on direct frontal assaults from the right and these hits only reinforce their cohesion. But go indirect by sending your tanks around the mountain range and attack their vulnerable left flanks and suddenly they start to crumble at once.

    For example, did you know what the Founding Mother of Rape-Crisis Feminism, Rebecca Latimer Felton, had to say on the subject?

    Felton also advocated more lynchings of black men, saying that such was “elysian” compared to the rape of white women. On at least one occasion, she stated that white Southerners should “lynch a thousand [black men] a week if it becomes necessary” to “protect woman’s dearest possession.”

    How is this thinking much different than the current trope of “Rape Culture” except that now the Feminist targets are blonde preppy fratboys? I think Rape-Crisis Feminists need to not only own up to to the racist antecedents of their movement’s past, but also need to have it pointed out to them that atoning for this is not achieved by simply swapping the skin color of their targeted out-group.

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    How is this thinking much different than the current trope of “Rape Culture” except that now the Feminist targets are blonde preppy fratboys?
     
    It's different in that it's protecting a collective treasure from people outside the collective. That's a huge difference.
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  190. @Jack D
    No. The detail that "Jackie" is a lifeguard is meant as a dog whistle signal that she is white. People are wondering why the seemingly irrelevant lifeguard detail was included - that's why.

    It is very possible that is what we are meant to infer. “I know that you know that I know….and so forth.”

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  191. The reality is that you will almost never find a glass container(bottle) breaking on a human face or head, certainly not when thrown. So that nonsense doesn’t fly. It’s similar to the bullet throwing someone through the nearest plate glass window movie fiction.

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  192. @Ace
    So now the reporter has been reduced to: “corroborated every aspect of the story that I could.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/author-of-rolling-stone-story-on-alleged-u-va-rape-didnt-talk-to-accused-perpetrators/2014/12/01/e4c19408-7999-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

    Wow, the journalistic standards at Rolling Stone sound super!

    Wow, the journalistic standards at Rolling Stone sound super!

    Well, the magazine was founded to celebrate bad taste in music, clothes, politics and everything else. Why not “journalism” as well?

    (What used to be called “reporting”.)

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  193. @Jack D
    Because no woman would ever lie about rape?


    Here's at least one, after around 30 seconds of googling:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Duluth_lynchings

    In the North but otherwise a classic lynching scenario .

    I'm sure there are more. The FBI says that around 8% of rape accusations are false.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics

    The FBI says that around 8% of rape accusations are false.

    The veracity of this figure, and the wisdom of applying the statute of limitations, would be a fun topic to bring up in Iowa’s Democratic caucuses a year from now.

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  194. . . . the Professor came down on him like a ton of bricks (“As a White man you can walk down the streets and not be harassed by the cops. As a White man, you can turn on the TV and see nothing but people who look like you. As a White man, you are judged as an individual, not as a group,” etc).

    Is this this the kind of thing white parents are paying up to $60,000 a year for their sons to experience? Granted, there are liberals who would consider it appropriate, but they can’t be the majority. Are colleges where this sort of brow-beating is customary ever going to pay a price for it? After all, it’s the white parents who are paying full-freight, for the most part, not the pampered minorities. You have to wonder how long this can go on.

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  195. Brutusale says:
    @dumpstersquirrel
    "The consensus pick for the best Thai restaurant in America is Pok Pok"

    Puke Puke is horrid, possibly the worst restaurant I've ever eaten at in Portland. Pure hype. Check out the online reviews and you'll see that most people agree with me. My local Thai joint beats the kimchi out of Puke Puke.

    Kimchi? Is that Korean-Thai fusion? Or just confusion?

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  196. @Torn and Frayed
    Maybe, maybe not. In any case, as you might suspect, I'm more interested in attacking Rape-Crisis Feminism from the Left and so personally I am willing to concede quite a high percentage on that point. Feminists are armed and ready to take on direct frontal assaults from the right and these hits only reinforce their cohesion. But go indirect by sending your tanks around the mountain range and attack their vulnerable left flanks and suddenly they start to crumble at once.

    For example, did you know what the Founding Mother of Rape-Crisis Feminism, Rebecca Latimer Felton, had to say on the subject?

    Felton also advocated more lynchings of black men, saying that such was “elysian” compared to the rape of white women. On at least one occasion, she stated that white Southerners should “lynch a thousand [black men] a week if it becomes necessary” to “protect woman’s dearest possession.”
     
    How is this thinking much different than the current trope of "Rape Culture" except that now the Feminist targets are blonde preppy fratboys? I think Rape-Crisis Feminists need to not only own up to to the racist antecedents of their movement's past, but also need to have it pointed out to them that atoning for this is not achieved by simply swapping the skin color of their targeted out-group.

    How is this thinking much different than the current trope of “Rape Culture” except that now the Feminist targets are blonde preppy fratboys?

    It’s different in that it’s protecting a collective treasure from people outside the collective. That’s a huge difference.

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  197. Jackie was just starting her freshman year at the University of Virginia when she was brutally assaulted by seven men at a frat party. When she tried to hold them accountable, a whole new kind of abuse began.

    Of course, she didn’t try to hold anyone accountable. If the rape happened, which I strongly doubt, she decided the rapists should get away with it.

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  198. @PaleoRetiree: Understood, but clearly you’re not a die-hard fan either!

    To put it in perspective: Leonard Maltin’s movie guide (which Queer Marxist feminist Robin Wood scorned as “the bible of bourgeois taste”) gives Bertolucci’s “1900″/”Novecento” his coveted 3 and 1/2 star rating. It’s five hours-plus, and makes considerably less narrative sense than “Heaven’s Gate”. “1900″ is an episodic, essentially PoMo/Bretchtean pageant, where no events add up. The characters are cardboard, inconsistent; the Marxist peasants triumph against oppression in one scene and are immediately back on their butts in the next. It’s visually lyrical, sometimes rapturous, but senseless. Also, the peasants and aristocrats both are so noxiously vulgar (including cow crap, horses pooping, pedophilia, rape, child-murder, onscreen manual stimulation of–celebrity!–male members– am I forgetting anything?– oh god, the murder of a kitten AND onscreen cocaine use) as to make the film a grueling, nihilist slog.

    Whereas “Heaven’s Gate”, at a temperate 3h 40mins (before Cimino cut four minutes for Criterion), is stuck with a lousy 2 stars. Fair?

    As I noted above, Coppola only dabbled with coke, but Scorsese plowed through it. And if the “Heaven’s Gate” debacle soured Hollywood on Scorsese, well, THAT was a welcome reprieve. Boy, aren’t we all glad he lived to become as prolific as Woody Allen!

    –Really, I enjoyed your comments, paleo, as also syon, terrapin, seneka, et al. I didn’t mean to scoff at your critical bona fides (or, for that matter, to hijack the topic with this “Heaven’s Gate” colloquium). But I think it’s nuts the audience couldn’t respond to the immense lyrical rapture of a film which– contra whoever said it– actually has a quite quotable and pithy script and a painfully acute sense of Life’s headlong rush to disaster.

    Wood himself– the film’s most ardent champion on this side of the Pond– thought the film fueled by “adolescent idealism” rather than Marxism. And if Cimino were coked out (and really, with so notoriously private a man, why should that be taken as a given?), we know full well his is hardly the only work of the age under its influence. All else aside, “Heaven’s Gate” has intriguing thematic relevance to many of our discussions here today.

    I’m fascinated, for instance, by Kristofferson’s reply when Waterson calls him “a traitor to your class.” –”You were never my class. You’d have to die and be born again first.” Christ-figures may be a dime-a-dozen nowadays, but that the rich-man-playing-poor Jim, in love with a whore, actually says this blows my mind. At least Cimino should be credited for pulling that. But it’s as if the contemporary critics absolutely refused to see the work Cimino put into the story– they just yawned and called it a postcard. There is certainly a story up there on the screen.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    We have a lot of Director's Cuts of movies, but I'd like to see Editor's Cuts as well. Peter Jackson's 3 hour King Kong would be a nifty 90 minute action movie.
    , @Steve Sailer
    We have a lot of Director's Cuts of movies, but I'd like to see Editor's Cuts as well. Peter Jackson's 3 hour King Kong would be a nifty 90 minute action movie.
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  199. Jack D says:
    @jo s'more


    Given Southern privileged white women’s horrific history of false rape charges that directly helped perpetuate the American shame of lynching,
     
    What in the world are you talking about?

    Lynching isn't uniquely American in any sense.

    Our usual due process, however, is far more unique.

    Anyway, more white criminals than black were lynched anyway.

    Lynching was pretty much done for the most egregious offenses to the community.

    The complaint against lynching is that the criminal is deprived of due process.

    The complaint is not that he was considered innocent by, well anyone, really.

    This is sort of begging the question, since “due process”, i.e. a trial, is how we determine guilt in the first place. Many times people whom the mob thinks of as “obviously guilty” (e.g. the Duke lacrosse players) turn out not to be once they are given due process. If the “Gang of 88″ were real men instead of worthless pencil pushers (and thank God they were not), they might have gotten a rope since of just signing a worthless petition, but their mentality was still the same as a lynch mob.

    There are some cases where there is no question of innocence (e.g. Jack Ruby shoots Lee Harvey Oswald on live TV before millions) but even in such cases, there are questions of state of mind that bear on whether the death penalty is appropriate. Maybe the criminal is insane or acted in the heat of passion? Lynch mobs do not allow for such subtlety.

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  200. Beer is known to be drunk from bottles by drunken fraternity boys studying law, so corporate heads have seen it as wise to make those vessels difficult to shatter. It is actually not an easy thing to break a beer bottle over a head, but it is an incredible feat indeed to chuck one into a face and get that result.

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  201. Torn and Frayed is probably the same guy posting over at Bradley’s site as Sweet Virginia, same schtick about lying privilege white women. I think he claims to black and have a MA in African American and Diaspora Studies or something, which he asserts with pride rather than as a punchline. Too bad he’s such a fool because he’s chosen to name himself after two of my absolute favorite Stones’ tunes.

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  202. @Lucius Somesuch
    @PaleoRetiree: Understood, but clearly you're not a die-hard fan either!

    To put it in perspective: Leonard Maltin's movie guide (which Queer Marxist feminist Robin Wood scorned as "the bible of bourgeois taste") gives Bertolucci's "1900"/"Novecento" his coveted 3 and 1/2 star rating. It's five hours-plus, and makes considerably less narrative sense than "Heaven's Gate". "1900" is an episodic, essentially PoMo/Bretchtean pageant, where no events add up. The characters are cardboard, inconsistent; the Marxist peasants triumph against oppression in one scene and are immediately back on their butts in the next. It's visually lyrical, sometimes rapturous, but senseless. Also, the peasants and aristocrats both are so noxiously vulgar (including cow crap, horses pooping, pedophilia, rape, child-murder, onscreen manual stimulation of--celebrity!--male members-- am I forgetting anything?-- oh god, the murder of a kitten AND onscreen cocaine use) as to make the film a grueling, nihilist slog.

    Whereas "Heaven's Gate", at a temperate 3h 40mins (before Cimino cut four minutes for Criterion), is stuck with a lousy 2 stars. Fair?

    As I noted above, Coppola only dabbled with coke, but Scorsese plowed through it. And if the "Heaven's Gate" debacle soured Hollywood on Scorsese, well, THAT was a welcome reprieve. Boy, aren't we all glad he lived to become as prolific as Woody Allen!

    --Really, I enjoyed your comments, paleo, as also syon, terrapin, seneka, et al. I didn't mean to scoff at your critical bona fides (or, for that matter, to hijack the topic with this "Heaven's Gate" colloquium). But I think it's nuts the audience couldn't respond to the immense lyrical rapture of a film which-- contra whoever said it-- actually has a quite quotable and pithy script and a painfully acute sense of Life's headlong rush to disaster.

    Wood himself-- the film's most ardent champion on this side of the Pond-- thought the film fueled by "adolescent idealism" rather than Marxism. And if Cimino were coked out (and really, with so notoriously private a man, why should that be taken as a given?), we know full well his is hardly the only work of the age under its influence. All else aside, "Heaven's Gate" has intriguing thematic relevance to many of our discussions here today.

    I'm fascinated, for instance, by Kristofferson's reply when Waterson calls him "a traitor to your class." --"You were never my class. You'd have to die and be born again first." Christ-figures may be a dime-a-dozen nowadays, but that the rich-man-playing-poor Jim, in love with a whore, actually says this blows my mind. At least Cimino should be credited for pulling that. But it's as if the contemporary critics absolutely refused to see the work Cimino put into the story-- they just yawned and called it a postcard. There is certainly a story up there on the screen.

    We have a lot of Director’s Cuts of movies, but I’d like to see Editor’s Cuts as well. Peter Jackson’s 3 hour King Kong would be a nifty 90 minute action movie.

    Read More
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  203. @Lucius Somesuch
    @PaleoRetiree: Understood, but clearly you're not a die-hard fan either!

    To put it in perspective: Leonard Maltin's movie guide (which Queer Marxist feminist Robin Wood scorned as "the bible of bourgeois taste") gives Bertolucci's "1900"/"Novecento" his coveted 3 and 1/2 star rating. It's five hours-plus, and makes considerably less narrative sense than "Heaven's Gate". "1900" is an episodic, essentially PoMo/Bretchtean pageant, where no events add up. The characters are cardboard, inconsistent; the Marxist peasants triumph against oppression in one scene and are immediately back on their butts in the next. It's visually lyrical, sometimes rapturous, but senseless. Also, the peasants and aristocrats both are so noxiously vulgar (including cow crap, horses pooping, pedophilia, rape, child-murder, onscreen manual stimulation of--celebrity!--male members-- am I forgetting anything?-- oh god, the murder of a kitten AND onscreen cocaine use) as to make the film a grueling, nihilist slog.

    Whereas "Heaven's Gate", at a temperate 3h 40mins (before Cimino cut four minutes for Criterion), is stuck with a lousy 2 stars. Fair?

    As I noted above, Coppola only dabbled with coke, but Scorsese plowed through it. And if the "Heaven's Gate" debacle soured Hollywood on Scorsese, well, THAT was a welcome reprieve. Boy, aren't we all glad he lived to become as prolific as Woody Allen!

    --Really, I enjoyed your comments, paleo, as also syon, terrapin, seneka, et al. I didn't mean to scoff at your critical bona fides (or, for that matter, to hijack the topic with this "Heaven's Gate" colloquium). But I think it's nuts the audience couldn't respond to the immense lyrical rapture of a film which-- contra whoever said it-- actually has a quite quotable and pithy script and a painfully acute sense of Life's headlong rush to disaster.

    Wood himself-- the film's most ardent champion on this side of the Pond-- thought the film fueled by "adolescent idealism" rather than Marxism. And if Cimino were coked out (and really, with so notoriously private a man, why should that be taken as a given?), we know full well his is hardly the only work of the age under its influence. All else aside, "Heaven's Gate" has intriguing thematic relevance to many of our discussions here today.

    I'm fascinated, for instance, by Kristofferson's reply when Waterson calls him "a traitor to your class." --"You were never my class. You'd have to die and be born again first." Christ-figures may be a dime-a-dozen nowadays, but that the rich-man-playing-poor Jim, in love with a whore, actually says this blows my mind. At least Cimino should be credited for pulling that. But it's as if the contemporary critics absolutely refused to see the work Cimino put into the story-- they just yawned and called it a postcard. There is certainly a story up there on the screen.

    We have a lot of Director’s Cuts of movies, but I’d like to see Editor’s Cuts as well. Peter Jackson’s 3 hour King Kong would be a nifty 90 minute action movie.

    Read More
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  204. Torn and Frayed is probably the same guy posting over at Bradley’s site as Sweet Virginia, same schtick about lying privilege white women.

    At least he’s got good taste in music. Go figure.

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  205. Priss Factor [AKA "dna turtles"] says:
    @Paleo Retiree
    I haven't given you my own reaction to "Heaven's Gate," I've only let you know what the mood at the screening was like. People just didn't like the film. I didn't have the impression that anyone in attendance had any animus against Cimino. They were hoping to enjoy the film, and then couldn't believe what an overblown (if often impressive and beautiful) mess Cimino had delivered. The film didn't start acquiring a rep as a misunderstood masterpiece until some French critics took it up -- they seemed to like its semi-Marxist message. And then some American filmgeeks picked up on their idea.

    I think it's common knowledge that Cimino was going thru mountains of cocaine at the time. Why would anyone accuse Lean or Visconti of being a '70s or '80s-style cokehead, btw? I haven't read bios of the two guys so have no idea if they ever indulged, but judging from their movies they were clearly never out of control and out of their skulls on the drug, the way Cimino by all accounts was.

    “I think it’s common knowledge that Cimino was going thru mountains of cocaine at the time. ”

    The Making of Heaven’s Gate:

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  206. WhatEvvs [AKA "Bemused"] says:
    @Art Deco
    since when you decide to bang one of your own slaves, she presumably doesn’t have a lot of choice in the matter.

    Since when has it been established that he did? The genetic testing was done on descendents of one of Sally Hemings' many children and merely demonstrated that a male Jefferson was an ancestor. It did not identify which male Jefferson.

    Right. I doubt that Thomas impregnated Sally. I read a few books on the subject, and IMO, a cousin whose name I forget is the most likely candidate. Not Randolph, a cousin who hung around. He committed suicide.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "Not Randolph, a cousin who hung around. He committed suicide."

    The youngest of Sally's surviving children, Eston, was born in 1808. Randolph, Thomas's brother (not his cousin) lived until 1815.

    According to Wiki, "a former Monticello [slave] recalled in 1847 that 'Old Master's brother, Mass Randall, was a mighty simple man: used to come out among black people, play the fiddle and dance half the night: hadn't much more sense [than me].'"

    The primary evidence against Randolph's paternity, as the Wiki page also notes, is that the dates of his recorded visits to Monticello do not square up with the birth of Hemmings' children. So it depends on whether Randolf ever visited Monticello off-record.
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  207. HA says:
    @WhatEvvs
    Right. I doubt that Thomas impregnated Sally. I read a few books on the subject, and IMO, a cousin whose name I forget is the most likely candidate. Not Randolph, a cousin who hung around. He committed suicide.

    “Not Randolph, a cousin who hung around. He committed suicide.”

    The youngest of Sally’s surviving children, Eston, was born in 1808. Randolph, Thomas’s brother (not his cousin) lived until 1815.

    According to Wiki, “a former Monticello [slave] recalled in 1847 that ‘Old Master’s brother, Mass Randall, was a mighty simple man: used to come out among black people, play the fiddle and dance half the night: hadn’t much more sense [than me].’”

    The primary evidence against Randolph’s paternity, as the Wiki page also notes, is that the dates of his recorded visits to Monticello do not square up with the birth of Hemmings’ children. So it depends on whether Randolf ever visited Monticello off-record.

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