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Israel's Very Effective Golan Heights Fence
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As I pointed out yesterday, while you are hearing about swarms of Syrian Muslim young men besieging Vienna and how there’s nothing that Europeans should or even could do about it, you never hear about Syrian refugees finding sanctuary in the nearby, underpopulated Golan Heights that the international community officially views as still Syrian territory. Why not?

Here’s why: from the Washington Post two summers ago:

With Golan fence, Israel closer to surrounding itself with barriers


Israeli soldiers patrol next to the border fence on border with Syria, in the Israeli-annexed Golan Heights. (Uriel Sinai/GETTY IMAGES)

By William Booth June 6, 2013

MOUNT HAZEKA, Israel — Fearful that the Syrian civil war, jihadist terrorists or Lebanese Hezbollah fighters will spill into Israel, the country’s military engineers are rushing to complete their latest “smart fence,” this one in the occupied Golan Heights.

Here along the tense boundary with Syria, fighting raged Thursday as Syrian rebels and government forces battled for control of a crossing in the latest violent incident that is inching the Syrian war closer to Israeli-held territory.

As the threat of spillover mounts, Israel is replacing an old, broken-down fence — so low that a goat could hop over it — with an intimidating steel barricade. The fortification features concertina and razor wire, touch sensors, motion detectors, infrared cameras and ground radar.

When the 45-mile fence is finished in the coming months, Israel will have taken another big step in surrounding itself with barriers. Rather than tearing down old walls, Israel is rebuilding and bolstering its ring of ground fortifications, even as old threats such as Palestinian suicide bombers have receded and new ones such as a potential nuclear-armed Iran arise.

The Israelis build the world’s most sophisticated fences, drawing international delegations that want to see the latest in barrier technology. …

Israeli military commanders say the fences work, offering protection against crowds of protesters and incursions by gun smugglers, illegal migrants and enemies who travel on foot. …

The Israeli fence network is almost complete — in the north, along the Lebanon border, where the militant organization Hezbollah is the threat; to the northeast, along the Golan Heights boundary with Syria; to the south, abutting Egypt’s lawless Sinai Peninsula.

Israeli military engineers are drawing up plans for a final stretch along the peaceful border with Jordan from the Dead Sea to the Red Sea.

The fence line — and the accompanying watch towers, patrol roads, intelligence centers and military brigades — stretch across vast deserts to snowy mountains, along river valleys and into the Mediterranean surf.

In the West Bank, some barriers separate Palestinian farmers from their land while cocooning Israeli highways and settlements. Others carve through the contested suburbs beyond East Jerusalem and line the entire Gaza Strip boundary, where the two sets of high fence and wall encompass a no-man’s land and are equipped with remote-controlled machine guns.

Critics decry “Fortress Israel.” But no recent Israeli government has seriously proposed taking down the barriers, in part because their construction has been followed by more-peaceful periods.

Israel’s most controversial fence is the separation barrier — or “apartheid wall,” as Palestinian activists call it — that divides Israel from the West Bank, part of the land that Palestinians claim for a future state. Israel began building it in 2002 during the second Palestinian intifada, or uprising, and it is about 70 percent complete.

According to the Israel Security Agency, 146 suicide attacks occurred inside Israel from 2001 to 2009, with a stark decline after 2004. There have been no such attacks since that period.

Col. Grisha Yakubovich, head of the Civil Coordination Department in the Israel Defense Forces, credited the barrier, though he said it was only one reason that attacks have diminished and that no Israelis were killed in the West Bank last year. …

This year, Israel finished all but the last few rugged miles of a 125-mile fence along its once-open border with Egypt’s restive Sinai. The barrier, begun in 2011 and built at an accelerated pace, was designed to stop illegal migrants, whom the Israeli government deems “infiltrators.”

Last year, Israel counted more than 10,000 illegal migrants — mostly poor refugees from Sudan and Eritrea — entering from Egypt. With the completion of the Sinai fence, the incursions have dropped to the single digits; only two people were captured last month.

“These obstacles work. Maybe they are ugly, maybe they are not nice, but they do what they are supposed to do,” said Col. Yonathan Bransky, deputy commander of the Israel Defense Forces division that patrols the Gaza Strip perimeter and the Sinai fence.

That point was disputed recently by Secretary of State John F. Kerry, who is pushing to restart peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

“The people who think somehow because there is a fence and because there’s been greater security and fewer people hurt are lulling themselves into a delusion that that somehow can be sustained. It cannot be,” Kerry, referring to the West Bank barrier, said to the American Jewish Committee on Monday.

Israel once wanted relatively open borders. Beginning in the 1970s, a “Good Fence” with Lebanon allowed Christian Maronite farmers to come and go somewhat freely. But that was several conflicts ago.

In the middle of the last century, when the land was the British Mandate of Palestine, one of the first things that Jewish pioneers would erect at new farming settlements was the “stockade and watchtower,” which became symbols of the Zionist movement. After the founding of Israel in 1948, the idea of such stationary fortifications became obsolete.

“The military, almost philosophical strategy became: We do not sit back behind fences and wait for people to attack us; we strike out — we want to fight our battles on their territory, not in ours,” said Tom Segev, popular historian and author of “1967: Israel, the War and the Year That Transformed the Middle East.”

“Now, it’s back to the wall and watchtower,” Segev said. “It was the result of intifada, of terror, or resistance, whatever you want to call it, and there was the admission we can’t really live with the Arabs, they have to stay outside the fence.”

 
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  1. OT: possible crimethink spotted.

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2581675

    The data show that in 1997 women and minorities were underrepresented compared to some populations, but Republicans and Christians were usually more underrepresented. For example, by the late 1990s, the proportion of the U.S. population that was neither Republican nor Christian was only 9%, but the majority of law professors (51%) was drawn from that small minority. Further, though women were strongly underrepresented compared to the full-time working population, all of that underrepresentation was among Republican women, who were — and are — almost missing from law teaching.

  2. True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.

    • Agree: Chrisnonymous, Clyde
    • Disagree: Anonym
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.
     
    Ludicrously false. The rest of us don't lack the guts, and, regardless, we're not lunatics who hate people for being different or better or whatever you're getting at. Wow.

    The problem people have with the Jewish community is that it disrupts our societies so that we can't do what we do have the guts to do.
  3. This article mentions another piece of land that’s underpopulated: the Sinai Peninsula. Egypt hasn’t done anything constructive with it, since winning it back from Israel during the Camp David Accords, and it’s actually a headache for Egypt now, as it’s been infiltrated by radical Muslims.

    Egypt should offer the Sinai as a home for Syrian refugees. Egypt would get a lot of diplomatic goodwill for doing so, it would get a tar baby off of its hands, and it would cash in, as EU and UN money flowed into the region to subsidize the refugees.

  4. Israel’s fences are nothing compared to its walls.

    I wonder how the world media would have reacted if Afrikaners built such walls between themselves and blacks.

    Well, it would have been effective judging by the tight control of West Bank by Israel.

  5. Our one-sided alliance with Israel could end up bearing some fruit if we can get some of those engineers over here helping us build the wall of Trump! Bring it on!

    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    Our one-sided alliance with Israel could end up bearing some fruit if we can get some of those engineers over here helping us build the wall of Trump! Bring it on!
     
    I think what Steve has in mind with these posts is not for the Israelis to build our border fence with Mexico, but for US-based Israeli supporters to get on board with building such a fence. Or at the very least to stop opposing it.
  6. How much of Israel’s high-tech, high-quality fencing was paid for by American taxpayers?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    How much of Israel’s high-tech, high-quality fencing was paid for by American taxpayers?

    $5 billion every year.
    , @Romanian
    None, I think, because American military aid goes towards buying gear and materiel from American companies. The new subsidy regime being bandied around as a sop to Israel for the Iran thing would allow the Israelis to use ~25% of the sum to buy gear from Israeli companies.

    So, I doubt they built the wall out of the 10-15% they can allocate now. Though, when you think about it, if you free up your own money for the acquisitions program subsidized by the Americans, you can use your savings for the wall.
  7. Steve,
    What is with Charles Murray? I get that he is not a fan of Donald Trump. But his recent Facebook post lauded Bret Stephens’ WSJ Trump is a fascist article:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2015/09/01/the_donald_and_the_demagogues_364537.html

    Here’s my favorite quote from the article:

    “It says that we may soon have a conservative movement in which the American creed of “give us your tired, your poor” could yield to the Trumpian creed that America must not become a “dumping ground” to poor immigrants from Latin America, as if these millions of hardworking and God-fearing people are a specimen of garbage.”

    Yup, one no longer had to think about the implications of 7 billion people on the planet. As long as we are morally on the right side. Admitting millions of people to compete with your most vulnerable citizens is apparently a conservative value that stretched back centuries. The funniest thing is that most conservatives that are not in the media do not have any of these moral sensibilities.

    Does Charles Murray, who says that this is best article written on Trump, believe that day laborers are concerned about restoring Jeffersonian democracy? Why are intellectuals, especially white intellectuals, so damned stupid!

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "“It says that we may soon have a conservative movement in which the American creed of “give us your tired, your poor”"

    I don't recognize that as an American creed. Just because some words are displayed on a structure somewhere, doesn't make it a national creed. Taco Bells all across the country have marquees emlazoned with the slogan "Live Mas!" - does that make "Live Mas!" a national creed?
    , @Anonymous
    What has Charles Murray done in his life? Talk and write and walk up to the post office? He spends all of his time in a Maryland town out near West Virginia that is 99.3% white.
    , @BubbaJoe
    Murray spends an inordinate amount of time sucking up to David Brooks and Jonah Goldberg. Check out his twitter timeline. It's embarrassing. He's done impressive work on IQ and social stratification, etc., but it doesn't follow that he's anti-immigration. He's also a libertarian. The Open Boarders stuff isn't something that irks him, rather it's par for the course. Acknowledging IQ differences doesn't make someone automatically pro-American, nor does it prevent them from being a rabid Israel- firster. He doesn't say much on foreign policy, but it's clear he's happy hobnobbing with the Kristol crowd.
  8. @Jewish Conservative Race Realist
    Our one-sided alliance with Israel could end up bearing some fruit if we can get some of those engineers over here helping us build the wall of Trump! Bring it on!

    Our one-sided alliance with Israel could end up bearing some fruit if we can get some of those engineers over here helping us build the wall of Trump! Bring it on!

    I think what Steve has in mind with these posts is not for the Israelis to build our border fence with Mexico, but for US-based Israeli supporters to get on board with building such a fence. Or at the very least to stop opposing it.

    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    If the Western countries don't get fences, Israel will face an 'existential threat' to its own fence.
    , @Jewish Conservative Race Realist
    I'm aware of that. Some of them are hypocritical, but most of them are consistent on the open borders question. Leftist SWPL jews in the USA mostly don't care about Israel or are actively hostile to the regime there. So the point is just kind of incoherent. Conversely, most pro-Israel jews are America First jews. The same way that plenty of Catholics are America First Catholics rather than Ireland First or Italy First Catholics. They all get a pass, their loyalty is unquestioned. Jewish loyalty is continually in question on the alt right. Yes, I understand why. I don't really want to get into it though. I just try to keep it positive. I think the tide is turning.
  9. Unsurprisingly, the Israelis follow combat engineer rule #1. Only obstacles covered by observation and fire are obstacles.

    • Replies: @Discard
    D Company, 1st Engineer Battalion, !st Infantry Division.

    What was your unit?
    , @WhatEvvs

    Only obstacles covered by observation and fire are obstacles.
     
    Can you explain that in a little more depth? It's very interesting but I'm not sure I understand the "only obstacles covered by observation" part. The fire part I get.
  10. http://www.palestinechronicle.com/22218/

    “Europe Doesn’t Have a Migrant Crisis, It Has a Syrian Crisis”

    Fair point to some extent.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    “Europe Doesn’t Have a Migrant Crisis, It Has a Syrian Crisis”
     
    No, this was already a major problem before the Syrians began arriving. Have the boatloads of Africans crossing the Med already been forgotten?
  11. That’s it- call it a Smartfence.

    Sure, fences don’t work; never have. Introducing the Smartfence!

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    The iFence. Growth industry.
  12. @E. Rekshun
    How much of Israel's high-tech, high-quality fencing was paid for by American taxpayers?

    How much of Israel’s high-tech, high-quality fencing was paid for by American taxpayers?

    $5 billion every year.

  13. @iSteveFan

    Our one-sided alliance with Israel could end up bearing some fruit if we can get some of those engineers over here helping us build the wall of Trump! Bring it on!
     
    I think what Steve has in mind with these posts is not for the Israelis to build our border fence with Mexico, but for US-based Israeli supporters to get on board with building such a fence. Or at the very least to stop opposing it.

    If the Western countries don’t get fences, Israel will face an ‘existential threat’ to its own fence.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    If the Western countries don’t get fences, Israel will face an ‘existential threat’ to its own fence.
     
    Now is the time to close the fence gap!
  14. @JerseyGuy
    Steve,
    What is with Charles Murray? I get that he is not a fan of Donald Trump. But his recent Facebook post lauded Bret Stephens' WSJ Trump is a fascist article:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2015/09/01/the_donald_and_the_demagogues_364537.html

    Here's my favorite quote from the article:

    "It says that we may soon have a conservative movement in which the American creed of “give us your tired, your poor” could yield to the Trumpian creed that America must not become a “dumping ground” to poor immigrants from Latin America, as if these millions of hardworking and God-fearing people are a specimen of garbage."

    Yup, one no longer had to think about the implications of 7 billion people on the planet. As long as we are morally on the right side. Admitting millions of people to compete with your most vulnerable citizens is apparently a conservative value that stretched back centuries. The funniest thing is that most conservatives that are not in the media do not have any of these moral sensibilities.

    Does Charles Murray, who says that this is best article written on Trump, believe that day laborers are concerned about restoring Jeffersonian democracy? Why are intellectuals, especially white intellectuals, so damned stupid!

    ““It says that we may soon have a conservative movement in which the American creed of “give us your tired, your poor””

    I don’t recognize that as an American creed. Just because some words are displayed on a structure somewhere, doesn’t make it a national creed. Taco Bells all across the country have marquees emlazoned with the slogan “Live Mas!” – does that make “Live Mas!” a national creed?

  15. True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.

    True or false: people criticize the Jews because, inter alia, the Jewish diaspora are both BFF to the Israelis, and the primary opposition to whites doing what Israelis do for themselves. Oh, and the power to do so effectively.

    If it was just about guts (and not racist supremacism), there’d be no criticism. And for that matter, Jews wouldn’t need to do any opposing, because whites just wouldn’t have the guts.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    True or false: people criticize the Jews because, inter alia, the Jewish diaspora are both BFF to the Israelis, and the primary opposition to whites doing what Israelis do for themselves.
     
    I wonder how true this is now. My sense is that the lefty American Jews who are pro-open borders (e.g., Matt Yglesias, Noah Smith) don't care much about Israel. I asked Smith once, and he said it wasn't in the top few countries he cared about (the U.S., Japan, and South Korea were all of more concern to him). And, on the other hand, young, righty American Jews (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Dan Horowitz) seem to be pro-Israel but also border hawks here.

    Old American Jewish billionaires Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban support Israel, of course, but are they big advocates for open borders here? Just glancing at their philanthropy on Wiki, it doesn't seem to be on the radar screen for them much either way.
  16. @JerseyGuy
    Steve,
    What is with Charles Murray? I get that he is not a fan of Donald Trump. But his recent Facebook post lauded Bret Stephens' WSJ Trump is a fascist article:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2015/09/01/the_donald_and_the_demagogues_364537.html

    Here's my favorite quote from the article:

    "It says that we may soon have a conservative movement in which the American creed of “give us your tired, your poor” could yield to the Trumpian creed that America must not become a “dumping ground” to poor immigrants from Latin America, as if these millions of hardworking and God-fearing people are a specimen of garbage."

    Yup, one no longer had to think about the implications of 7 billion people on the planet. As long as we are morally on the right side. Admitting millions of people to compete with your most vulnerable citizens is apparently a conservative value that stretched back centuries. The funniest thing is that most conservatives that are not in the media do not have any of these moral sensibilities.

    Does Charles Murray, who says that this is best article written on Trump, believe that day laborers are concerned about restoring Jeffersonian democracy? Why are intellectuals, especially white intellectuals, so damned stupid!

    What has Charles Murray done in his life? Talk and write and walk up to the post office? He spends all of his time in a Maryland town out near West Virginia that is 99.3% white.

  17. @Priss Factor
    http://www.palestinechronicle.com/22218/

    "Europe Doesn’t Have a Migrant Crisis, It Has a Syrian Crisis"

    Fair point to some extent.

    “Europe Doesn’t Have a Migrant Crisis, It Has a Syrian Crisis”

    No, this was already a major problem before the Syrians began arriving. Have the boatloads of Africans crossing the Med already been forgotten?

  18. @I, Libertine
    True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.

    True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.

    Ludicrously false. The rest of us don’t lack the guts, and, regardless, we’re not lunatics who hate people for being different or better or whatever you’re getting at. Wow.

    The problem people have with the Jewish community is that it disrupts our societies so that we can’t do what we do have the guts to do.

    • Replies: @I, Libertine
    I was just askin'
    , @Yngvar

    The problem people have with the Jewish community is that it disrupts our societies so that we can’t do what we do have the guts to do.
     
    Oh man, that was lame. Isn't much of a society if it's so easily disrupted.
  19. @Busby
    Unsurprisingly, the Israelis follow combat engineer rule #1. Only obstacles covered by observation and fire are obstacles.

    D Company, 1st Engineer Battalion, !st Infantry Division.

    What was your unit?

  20. @Maj. Kong
    If the Western countries don't get fences, Israel will face an 'existential threat' to its own fence.

    If the Western countries don’t get fences, Israel will face an ‘existential threat’ to its own fence.

    Now is the time to close the fence gap!

  21. People want to blame Jews for their own faults. Its typical scapegoating. Israel is beset by Open Borders elites. The Tel Aviv Bubble says the same thing about Israel: “we are a nation of immigrants,” and “we have to get used to a non-Jewish majority state,” that the equivalent Jewish bubble says in the Upper East Side, Beverly Hills, Malibu, Santa Monica, and the tony parts of Venice.

    Its just that the elites in Israel are on the razor’s edge. They don’t have the margin that Merkel has to take in 800,000 a year. So they build fences. And ignore the Tel Aviv bubble.

    Indeed, most Jews in the US are softly anti-Israel. That is a function of being an elite in the bubble. And being so absorbed in SWPL culture they’d rather their distant cousins in Israel get nuked than say things nasty about Muslims or Iran or Obama forbid, the LightWorker himself, that spiritually advanced being, the racial redeemer.

    Fences are good for keeping out a mob. Not so good against an organized military force. That does not mean fortifications are useless, just against a really good military opponent likely only to slow not stop an assault. Example: the Egyptians in 1972 in the Yom Kippur War used hoses drawing water from the Suez Canal to knock down the sand berm fortifications the Israelis thought (rightly) impervious to shelling. But not to streams of water.

    Needless to say masses of refugees are by definition not a military force. So they are effective. Against the Turkish military if it wanted to reconstitute the Ottoman Empire? Not so much.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    On some level this immigration wave Turkey is encouraging is their attempt to reestablish the Ottoman Empire. Anyway most of us just want Israel to stop applying the double standard, not too hopeful myself.
  22. @Svigor

    True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.
     
    True or false: people criticize the Jews because, inter alia, the Jewish diaspora are both BFF to the Israelis, and the primary opposition to whites doing what Israelis do for themselves. Oh, and the power to do so effectively.

    If it was just about guts (and not racist supremacism), there'd be no criticism. And for that matter, Jews wouldn't need to do any opposing, because whites just wouldn't have the guts.

    True or false: people criticize the Jews because, inter alia, the Jewish diaspora are both BFF to the Israelis, and the primary opposition to whites doing what Israelis do for themselves.

    I wonder how true this is now. My sense is that the lefty American Jews who are pro-open borders (e.g., Matt Yglesias, Noah Smith) don’t care much about Israel. I asked Smith once, and he said it wasn’t in the top few countries he cared about (the U.S., Japan, and South Korea were all of more concern to him). And, on the other hand, young, righty American Jews (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Dan Horowitz) seem to be pro-Israel but also border hawks here.

    Old American Jewish billionaires Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban support Israel, of course, but are they big advocates for open borders here? Just glancing at their philanthropy on Wiki, it doesn’t seem to be on the radar screen for them much either way.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Old American Jewish billionaires Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban support Israel, of course, but are they big advocates for open borders here?
     
    It's difficult to know. Of course, if we had a huge electronic network where such information could be found (it might even have a fancy name like 'internet' or something), and a search engine with a huge server farm (perhaps called Google) which could be employed to find such information... Alas, this all still belongs in the realm of science fiction.
  23. I think it’s time we stop referring to the Golan Heights as “occupied” and concede that it is a part of Israel. After all, Israel has controlled it for 48 years now and it only took 30 seconds of occupation to concede Crimea to the Soviet Union. What’s with the horrendous double standard?

  24. @JerseyGuy
    Steve,
    What is with Charles Murray? I get that he is not a fan of Donald Trump. But his recent Facebook post lauded Bret Stephens' WSJ Trump is a fascist article:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2015/09/01/the_donald_and_the_demagogues_364537.html

    Here's my favorite quote from the article:

    "It says that we may soon have a conservative movement in which the American creed of “give us your tired, your poor” could yield to the Trumpian creed that America must not become a “dumping ground” to poor immigrants from Latin America, as if these millions of hardworking and God-fearing people are a specimen of garbage."

    Yup, one no longer had to think about the implications of 7 billion people on the planet. As long as we are morally on the right side. Admitting millions of people to compete with your most vulnerable citizens is apparently a conservative value that stretched back centuries. The funniest thing is that most conservatives that are not in the media do not have any of these moral sensibilities.

    Does Charles Murray, who says that this is best article written on Trump, believe that day laborers are concerned about restoring Jeffersonian democracy? Why are intellectuals, especially white intellectuals, so damned stupid!

    Murray spends an inordinate amount of time sucking up to David Brooks and Jonah Goldberg. Check out his twitter timeline. It’s embarrassing. He’s done impressive work on IQ and social stratification, etc., but it doesn’t follow that he’s anti-immigration. He’s also a libertarian. The Open Boarders stuff isn’t something that irks him, rather it’s par for the course. Acknowledging IQ differences doesn’t make someone automatically pro-American, nor does it prevent them from being a rabid Israel- firster. He doesn’t say much on foreign policy, but it’s clear he’s happy hobnobbing with the Kristol crowd.

  25. @Dave Pinsen

    True or false: people criticize the Jews because, inter alia, the Jewish diaspora are both BFF to the Israelis, and the primary opposition to whites doing what Israelis do for themselves.
     
    I wonder how true this is now. My sense is that the lefty American Jews who are pro-open borders (e.g., Matt Yglesias, Noah Smith) don't care much about Israel. I asked Smith once, and he said it wasn't in the top few countries he cared about (the U.S., Japan, and South Korea were all of more concern to him). And, on the other hand, young, righty American Jews (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Dan Horowitz) seem to be pro-Israel but also border hawks here.

    Old American Jewish billionaires Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban support Israel, of course, but are they big advocates for open borders here? Just glancing at their philanthropy on Wiki, it doesn't seem to be on the radar screen for them much either way.

    Old American Jewish billionaires Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban support Israel, of course, but are they big advocates for open borders here?

    It’s difficult to know. Of course, if we had a huge electronic network where such information could be found (it might even have a fancy name like ‘internet’ or something), and a search engine with a huge server farm (perhaps called Google) which could be employed to find such information… Alas, this all still belongs in the realm of science fiction.

  26. @Busby
    Unsurprisingly, the Israelis follow combat engineer rule #1. Only obstacles covered by observation and fire are obstacles.

    Only obstacles covered by observation and fire are obstacles.

    Can you explain that in a little more depth? It’s very interesting but I’m not sure I understand the “only obstacles covered by observation” part. The fire part I get.

    • Replies: @Discard
    You need to observe in order to know when to open fire. Imagine that you've got a barbed wire fence out there. It's purpose is to make the attackers stop and take out the wire cutters. Your observer knows exactly where they are, and has even prepared for this by aiming the mortars beforehand. While they are stopped, you shoot them down in droves. The survivors run away.

    This is basic combat engineer stuff, arcane to many, but common knowledge at Fort Leonard Wood.
  27. @ben tillman

    True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.
     
    Ludicrously false. The rest of us don't lack the guts, and, regardless, we're not lunatics who hate people for being different or better or whatever you're getting at. Wow.

    The problem people have with the Jewish community is that it disrupts our societies so that we can't do what we do have the guts to do.

    I was just askin’

  28. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    That's it- call it a Smartfence.

    Sure, fences don't work; never have. Introducing the Smartfence!

    The iFence. Growth industry.

  29. @Whiskey
    People want to blame Jews for their own faults. Its typical scapegoating. Israel is beset by Open Borders elites. The Tel Aviv Bubble says the same thing about Israel: "we are a nation of immigrants," and "we have to get used to a non-Jewish majority state," that the equivalent Jewish bubble says in the Upper East Side, Beverly Hills, Malibu, Santa Monica, and the tony parts of Venice.

    Its just that the elites in Israel are on the razor's edge. They don't have the margin that Merkel has to take in 800,000 a year. So they build fences. And ignore the Tel Aviv bubble.

    Indeed, most Jews in the US are softly anti-Israel. That is a function of being an elite in the bubble. And being so absorbed in SWPL culture they'd rather their distant cousins in Israel get nuked than say things nasty about Muslims or Iran or Obama forbid, the LightWorker himself, that spiritually advanced being, the racial redeemer.

    Fences are good for keeping out a mob. Not so good against an organized military force. That does not mean fortifications are useless, just against a really good military opponent likely only to slow not stop an assault. Example: the Egyptians in 1972 in the Yom Kippur War used hoses drawing water from the Suez Canal to knock down the sand berm fortifications the Israelis thought (rightly) impervious to shelling. But not to streams of water.

    Needless to say masses of refugees are by definition not a military force. So they are effective. Against the Turkish military if it wanted to reconstitute the Ottoman Empire? Not so much.

    On some level this immigration wave Turkey is encouraging is their attempt to reestablish the Ottoman Empire. Anyway most of us just want Israel to stop applying the double standard, not too hopeful myself.

  30. @iSteveFan

    Our one-sided alliance with Israel could end up bearing some fruit if we can get some of those engineers over here helping us build the wall of Trump! Bring it on!
     
    I think what Steve has in mind with these posts is not for the Israelis to build our border fence with Mexico, but for US-based Israeli supporters to get on board with building such a fence. Or at the very least to stop opposing it.

    I’m aware of that. Some of them are hypocritical, but most of them are consistent on the open borders question. Leftist SWPL jews in the USA mostly don’t care about Israel or are actively hostile to the regime there. So the point is just kind of incoherent. Conversely, most pro-Israel jews are America First jews. The same way that plenty of Catholics are America First Catholics rather than Ireland First or Italy First Catholics. They all get a pass, their loyalty is unquestioned. Jewish loyalty is continually in question on the alt right. Yes, I understand why. I don’t really want to get into it though. I just try to keep it positive. I think the tide is turning.

    • Replies: @Matra
    most pro-Israel jews are America First jews

    That is an example of another thing that leads to hostility to Jews. Telling lies in order to manipulate others. Europeans, particularly high trust north west Europeans, see those who lie to us as people of low character at best, enemies at worst. We take being lied to not as some trivial thing that can be brushed aside but as a personal insult. Falling for a manipulative lie is humiliating and not easily forgiven. Russian crude compulsive, intelligence insulting lying has done more to create anti-Russian sentiment in northern Europe over the last year and a half than any of its actual policies, including the annexation of Crimea. Like Russians, Jews are low trust people - at least when it comes to outsiders - who shamelessly try to manipulate us into doing things that are in their own narrow interests. That kind of behaviour sets you apart from your host population.

    And since you brought up Italian Catholics could you give us some examples of prominent media personalities who use their influential positions to steer public discourse towards the interests of the Italian government?

    , @iSteveFan

    Conversely, most pro-Israel jews are America First jews. The same way that plenty of Catholics are America First Catholics rather than Ireland First or Italy First Catholics. They all get a pass, their loyalty is unquestioned. Jewish loyalty is continually in question on the alt right.
     
    Actually my original post was not to attack the Jews. In my original post I wrote that "US-based Israeli supporters " need to get on board with securing our border. That includes a lot of non-Jews like John McCain, Lindsey Graham, the Bushes, John Boehner, and pretty much the entire GOP leadership. They have dragged their feet and misdirected security efforts into the worthless virtual fence, have never intended to build an adequate barrier, and are forever trying to pass an amnesty.

    As for the beliefs of the pro-Israel Jews, I can only speculate from what I see in public. I know that Michael Savage, Mickey Kaus, a and Mark Levin are great on the national question, but I don't think William Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, David Brooks and host of other leading pro-Israel Jews are.

    What is most troubling is that these people I mention, both Jew and non-Jew, are supposedly conservatives who talk tough, draw lines in the sand and are prepared to use American force around the world at the drop of a hat. Yet they do everything they can to prevent America from securing her borders while championing the right of Israel to secure hers.
  31. @Jewish Conservative Race Realist
    I'm aware of that. Some of them are hypocritical, but most of them are consistent on the open borders question. Leftist SWPL jews in the USA mostly don't care about Israel or are actively hostile to the regime there. So the point is just kind of incoherent. Conversely, most pro-Israel jews are America First jews. The same way that plenty of Catholics are America First Catholics rather than Ireland First or Italy First Catholics. They all get a pass, their loyalty is unquestioned. Jewish loyalty is continually in question on the alt right. Yes, I understand why. I don't really want to get into it though. I just try to keep it positive. I think the tide is turning.

    most pro-Israel jews are America First jews

    That is an example of another thing that leads to hostility to Jews. Telling lies in order to manipulate others. Europeans, particularly high trust north west Europeans, see those who lie to us as people of low character at best, enemies at worst. We take being lied to not as some trivial thing that can be brushed aside but as a personal insult. Falling for a manipulative lie is humiliating and not easily forgiven. Russian crude compulsive, intelligence insulting lying has done more to create anti-Russian sentiment in northern Europe over the last year and a half than any of its actual policies, including the annexation of Crimea. Like Russians, Jews are low trust people – at least when it comes to outsiders – who shamelessly try to manipulate us into doing things that are in their own narrow interests. That kind of behaviour sets you apart from your host population.

    And since you brought up Italian Catholics could you give us some examples of prominent media personalities who use their influential positions to steer public discourse towards the interests of the Italian government?

    • Replies: @Jewish Conservative Race Realist
    Nah. I'm not going to engage with that. Sorry.
  32. @WhatEvvs

    Only obstacles covered by observation and fire are obstacles.
     
    Can you explain that in a little more depth? It's very interesting but I'm not sure I understand the "only obstacles covered by observation" part. The fire part I get.

    You need to observe in order to know when to open fire. Imagine that you’ve got a barbed wire fence out there. It’s purpose is to make the attackers stop and take out the wire cutters. Your observer knows exactly where they are, and has even prepared for this by aiming the mortars beforehand. While they are stopped, you shoot them down in droves. The survivors run away.

    This is basic combat engineer stuff, arcane to many, but common knowledge at Fort Leonard Wood.

  33. @Matra
    most pro-Israel jews are America First jews

    That is an example of another thing that leads to hostility to Jews. Telling lies in order to manipulate others. Europeans, particularly high trust north west Europeans, see those who lie to us as people of low character at best, enemies at worst. We take being lied to not as some trivial thing that can be brushed aside but as a personal insult. Falling for a manipulative lie is humiliating and not easily forgiven. Russian crude compulsive, intelligence insulting lying has done more to create anti-Russian sentiment in northern Europe over the last year and a half than any of its actual policies, including the annexation of Crimea. Like Russians, Jews are low trust people - at least when it comes to outsiders - who shamelessly try to manipulate us into doing things that are in their own narrow interests. That kind of behaviour sets you apart from your host population.

    And since you brought up Italian Catholics could you give us some examples of prominent media personalities who use their influential positions to steer public discourse towards the interests of the Italian government?

    Nah. I’m not going to engage with that. Sorry.

  34. Actually, the fence is on internationally-recognized Syrian land, not on the border.

  35. @Jewish Conservative Race Realist
    I'm aware of that. Some of them are hypocritical, but most of them are consistent on the open borders question. Leftist SWPL jews in the USA mostly don't care about Israel or are actively hostile to the regime there. So the point is just kind of incoherent. Conversely, most pro-Israel jews are America First jews. The same way that plenty of Catholics are America First Catholics rather than Ireland First or Italy First Catholics. They all get a pass, their loyalty is unquestioned. Jewish loyalty is continually in question on the alt right. Yes, I understand why. I don't really want to get into it though. I just try to keep it positive. I think the tide is turning.

    Conversely, most pro-Israel jews are America First jews. The same way that plenty of Catholics are America First Catholics rather than Ireland First or Italy First Catholics. They all get a pass, their loyalty is unquestioned. Jewish loyalty is continually in question on the alt right.

    Actually my original post was not to attack the Jews. In my original post I wrote that “US-based Israeli supporters ” need to get on board with securing our border. That includes a lot of non-Jews like John McCain, Lindsey Graham, the Bushes, John Boehner, and pretty much the entire GOP leadership. They have dragged their feet and misdirected security efforts into the worthless virtual fence, have never intended to build an adequate barrier, and are forever trying to pass an amnesty.

    As for the beliefs of the pro-Israel Jews, I can only speculate from what I see in public. I know that Michael Savage, Mickey Kaus, a and Mark Levin are great on the national question, but I don’t think William Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, David Brooks and host of other leading pro-Israel Jews are.

    What is most troubling is that these people I mention, both Jew and non-Jew, are supposedly conservatives who talk tough, draw lines in the sand and are prepared to use American force around the world at the drop of a hat. Yet they do everything they can to prevent America from securing her borders while championing the right of Israel to secure hers.

  36. @E. Rekshun
    How much of Israel's high-tech, high-quality fencing was paid for by American taxpayers?

    None, I think, because American military aid goes towards buying gear and materiel from American companies. The new subsidy regime being bandied around as a sop to Israel for the Iran thing would allow the Israelis to use ~25% of the sum to buy gear from Israeli companies.

    So, I doubt they built the wall out of the 10-15% they can allocate now. Though, when you think about it, if you free up your own money for the acquisitions program subsidized by the Americans, you can use your savings for the wall.

  37. @ben tillman

    True or false: people hate the Jews because the Jews have the guts to do for themselves what they gotta do, and the rest of Western Civilization knows that it lacks those guts.
     
    Ludicrously false. The rest of us don't lack the guts, and, regardless, we're not lunatics who hate people for being different or better or whatever you're getting at. Wow.

    The problem people have with the Jewish community is that it disrupts our societies so that we can't do what we do have the guts to do.

    The problem people have with the Jewish community is that it disrupts our societies so that we can’t do what we do have the guts to do.

    Oh man, that was lame. Isn’t much of a society if it’s so easily disrupted.

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