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Is There Some Way to Subdue Armed Lunatics Without Shooting Them?
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Granted, the Japanese aren’t making ninjas like they used to — the new ninjas who are apparently attacking receptionists all over corporate Japan seem slow-footed and indecisive — but still …

From the NYT:

For Police, a Playbook for Conflicts Involving Mental Illness

In response to high-profile shootings of people with mental illness, police departments around the country are turning to crisis intervention training.

By ERICA GOODE APRIL 25, 2016

PORTLAND, Ore. — The 911 caller had reported a man with a samurai sword, lunging at people on the waterfront.

It was evening, and when the police arrived, they saw the man pacing the beach and called to him. He responded by throwing a rock at the embankment where they stood.

They shouted to him from a sheriff’s boat; he threw another rock. They told him to drop the sword; he said he would kill them. He started to leave the beach, and after warning him, they shot him in the leg with a beanbag gun. He turned back, still carrying the four-foot blade.

In another city — or in Portland itself not that long ago — the next step would almost certainly have been a direct confrontation and, had the man not put down the weapon, the use of lethal force.

But the Portland Police Bureau, prodded in part by the 2012 findings of a Justice Department investigation, has spent years putting in place an intensive training program and protocols for how officers deal with people with mental illness.

At a time when police behavior is under intense scrutiny — a series of fatal shootings by police officers have focused national attention on issues of race and mental illness — Portland’s approach has served as a model for other law enforcement agencies around the country.

And on that Sunday last summer, the police here chose a different course.

At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him.

Hmmhmmhhmmm …

I think there has to be some kind of intelligent middle course between just shooting the poor bastard like the cops tend to do in inept Albuquerque because they can’t think of anything else to do, and letting him wander off, sword in hand, like in mellow Portland.

How about having the cops pull back and sit in their car and watch him? He’ll get hungry and thirsty after awhile, so how about offering him a can of beer (which happens to be a special cop can of Budweiser that has a powerful sedative in it?)

Why not technological solutions for dealing with potentially dangerous maniacs? If naturalists can sedate 1000 pound polar bears to put radio collars on them, cops ought to be able to take into custody 200 pound lunatics. In southeast Asia, where “running amok” with a machete is a time-honored tradition, villages in the 19th century were required to maintain poles and ropes for subduing amok runners. Here are cops in Thailand using a fishing net and poles to take down a guy running amok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25n6z7uhTKE

Today, you could provide the police with tranquilizer dart guns or weighted nets or some kind of Spider-Man style sticky gunk shooter for dealing with edged weapon-wielding lunatics. Cops increasingly drive SUVs, which have room for carrying all sorts of equipment, even exotic stuff that would only be used rarely.

That still leaves the problem of lunatics with guns.

By the way, here’s a pepper spray weapon that’s being marketed as a sort of Gay Gun (seriously):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a8XzuwJLFw

 
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  1. At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him.

    I’m not sure that the case law would back me up on this, but when the cops knowingly let an armed lunatic saunter off into the sunset, my gut tells me we are getting pretty close to the “state-created danger” doctrine of municipal liability.

    • Replies: @tsotha
    Not in the legal sense, no. It's been pretty well established in recent court cases the cops don't have a legal duty to protect you.
  2. Taser.

    • Replies: @Cracker
    Not if they have a firearm.
  3. Americana tradition is to shoot people. They love it.

  4. Leaving the guy on the beach, waving a sword and threatening murder, was outright dereliction of duty, nothing less. But…Portland; expected. If lunatics & derelicts are to be free among us, netting them or tranking them is entirely reasonable. In a sane world. Which this isn’t.

    http://wildlifecapture.com/large-animal-net-gun

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks. I'll add this all time great Japanese video of a net gun for receptionists to use on ninjas.
    , @ben tillman

    Leaving the guy on the beach, waving a sword and threatening murder, was outright dereliction of duty, nothing less. But…Portland; expected.
     
    To the contrary, Portland has especially trigger-happy cops.
  5. About five years ago, when I turned 45; Budweiser, as well as all other brands started placing powerful sedatives in their beer.

    • Agree: International Jew
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    To get yer mojo back, step up to Wreck the Hoose Juice!

    “It’ll blow your head off,” said James Grimson, smoking a cigarette outside a pub near the center of Coatbridge
     
    Sounds like a challenge, mate.
  6. “At a time when police behavior is under intense scrutiny”

    The police are only under scrutiny when they kill a Black person. It’s okay however for the police to kill White people, judging by the lack of anger from Social Justice Warriors.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  7. That still leaves the problem of lunatics with guns.

    Long-range tranquilizer darts, followed by placing the dart recipient with the president of the local ACLU chapter as a ward of that president, and shooting that local ACLU president with a couple of tranquilizer darts if there is any objection.

    • Replies: @Thagomizer
    Tranq darts don't actually work very well. You need adjust the amount of tranquilizer for the target's body weight. Too much he dies, too little he's just groggy and pissed off.

    Many of the bears "released into the wild" don't wake up and are quietly disposed of.
  8. Just met with some policing advocates, and even they’ll admit dealing with the mentally ill us an area they are woefully under trained for.

    You’re an IQ guy. What do you think the average IQ is of your typical beat cop that encounters one of these weird-o’s is? Most don’t de-escalate and walk away.

  9. Conducted electrical weapons always seemed unwieldy and strangely unreliable. I like these suggestions, Steve. Perhaps some drones could drop the net on the maniac.

  10. Priss Factor [AKA "Polly Perkins"] says:

    Instead of the police, create something like the Six Million Dollar Man.

    Accounting for inflation, how much would Six Million Man be worth today?

  11. Regarding mellow Portland, the aggressive homeless population here is getting out of hand. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some notable violent incidents this summer.

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    Indeed. I moved here just as the court order re police handling of mentally ill arrests was taking effect. All sounds fishy, like Holder's Justice Dept and local allies couldn't work up a racial lawsuit and subsequent court order, so settled on the mentally ill angle. As far as I can see the cops do whatever they do with a pretty low profile. I'm willing to bet they get away with a relatively light hand because it's still Portland. Not for long maybe.

    But the homeless are more numerous and sketchy every day, with summer on the way.
  12. I’d roll back the disastrous de-institutionalization push of the late 1970s and early 1980s. Fixing the problem on the street is dangerous no matter what equipment and training you’ve got.

    • Replies: @anon

    I’d roll back the disastrous de-institutionalization push of the late 1970s and early 1980s.
     
    100%
  13. @Anonymous
    Leaving the guy on the beach, waving a sword and threatening murder, was outright dereliction of duty, nothing less. But...Portland; expected. If lunatics & derelicts are to be free among us, netting them or tranking them is entirely reasonable. In a sane world. Which this isn't.

    http://wildlifecapture.com/large-animal-net-gun

    Thanks. I’ll add this all time great Japanese video of a net gun for receptionists to use on ninjas.

  14. This is on my Christmas present list:

    SALT is a non-lethal firearm that fires pepper spray capsules instead of bullets

    https://www.saltsupply.com/store/p2/SaltHomeDefenseGun

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Fascinating, it's being marketed as a gay gun.
  15. @FozzieT
    Taser.

    Not if they have a firearm.

  16. @Drapetomaniac
    This is on my Christmas present list:

    SALT is a non-lethal firearm that fires pepper spray capsules instead of bullets

    https://www.saltsupply.com/store/p2/SaltHomeDefenseGun

    Fascinating, it’s being marketed as a gay gun.

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    Perhaps neutered a bit.

    I wonder if you could shoot those pepper spray balls in a paintball gun at ten rounds per second.
  17. @Charles Erwin Wilson

    That still leaves the problem of lunatics with guns.
     
    Long-range tranquilizer darts, followed by placing the dart recipient with the president of the local ACLU chapter as a ward of that president, and shooting that local ACLU president with a couple of tranquilizer darts if there is any objection.

    Tranq darts don’t actually work very well. You need adjust the amount of tranquilizer for the target’s body weight. Too much he dies, too little he’s just groggy and pissed off.

    Many of the bears “released into the wild” don’t wake up and are quietly disposed of.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Many of the bears “released into the wild” don’t wake up and are quietly disposed of.
     
    Well all right then. Maybe we will have to lay the sword-wielding lunatic next to one of those bears.
  18. There’s one product designed by an ex-cop called “the alternative”.

    A gun attachment that allows a single less than lethal shot, then allow lethal shots if something goes wrong.

    The big advantage is there’s isn’t much additional weight to carry.

    The downside is it’s slower to draw and creates legal problems if the police office doesn’t have time to attach it.

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    Also the downside of giving the police a solid excuse for using lethal shots after half-hearted attempts with the non-lethal shot.
    , @Bill B.
    Looks like an option.

    I was thinking why not riot equipment like a 'baton round' or 'bean bag round' fired from a maybe a one-time canister the size of a long torch?

    A bean bag round is like being hit full-on by a heavy-weight I was told. European riot squads have been known to try to bounce baton rounds off the road at short ranges against rioters (to reduce lethality). But perhaps it would be less confusing for the cops?

    By the way is the Thai capture net film a demo? Thai police have a reputation for shooting recalcitrants.
  19. These videos below from the UK are pertinent, though the second one is compiled from the viewpoint of advocacy. The one with the 30 cops is worth looking at closely.

    It should be noted that in the old days, policemen in America were usually not armed but quite handy with their nightsticks. They could often deftly crack a collarbone, elbow or skull to end a situation non-lethally, though ensuing fatalities in hospital, long after the encounters, are not recorded.

    These days, S.O.P. in other advanced Western countries is to back off and call for backup, and safe protocols for dealing with the mentally ill are drilled into cops.

    I don’t know what proportion of US police departments use such non-lethal protocols, but there certainly is a doctrine in many police departments that the police, upon arriving at a scene, should establish command presence, control, and obedience immediately. In this school of thinking, if this fails to happen, escalation with overwhelming force should be the immediate response, in order to flip the situation into that desired state. Fatalities are a by-product.

    In order to relieve the officers of any hesitation or second thoughts, it is, of course, necessary to have a culture of judicial and prosecutorial benefit of the doubt, sympathetic internal review philosophies, and unwavering police union support for police officers who have “had to” take life in the course of work.

    Could America’s police departments do better with the mentally ill? Right now, there is a one size fits all approach in some P.D.s who do not differentiate between situations involving the criminally violent and the merely mentally ill violent. Many U.S. police would reasonably argue that there is no practical difference between the two types of situations.

    I’m curious, though, to hear the other side. What proportion of such encounters are actually resolved in the US with methods not dissimilar to those in the below UK videos? We really don’t know. It could be the norm, rather than the exception.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    US police departments have eliminated many impact weapons. Cops used to carry a sap; that's almost completely gone now. You'll notice they don't carry those big 4 D-cell flashlights, either. They're not approved for use in whacking someone. A lot of the nightsticks have been replaced by collapsable batons, which don't have the same effects.
    , @NOTA
    We will pretty much never see a YouTube video or news story of the 99/100 times when the cops talked a crazy, drunk, high, etc. person down and quietly resolved the situation with nobody shot or tazed or beaten up. Those aren't news. This lack probably distorts the hell out of our public discussions about police misconduct.
  20. @Steve Sailer
    Fascinating, it's being marketed as a gay gun.

    Perhaps neutered a bit.

    I wonder if you could shoot those pepper spray balls in a paintball gun at ten rounds per second.

  21. What about sending out an exorcist? It worked with the crazy man near the tombs when Jesus sent the demons into the pigs.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    You have to have pigs on hand at all times. Logistically problematic. Then there will be the animal rights problems too...
  22. That still leaves the problem of lunatics with guns.

    Lone suspects with guns (no hostages): Tactically and procedurally (from a law enforcement doctrine standpoint) there is no “problem.” Cops are trained to take them out. One exception would be a suicidal person with the muzzle fast to their own head, then maybe negotiation can take place… the second the gun is waved around, POP-POP-POP!—problem solved.

    The six million dollar lotto payout in the Tamir Rice case is not an indication of failed tactics or doctrine, it is a reflection of current who/whom politics.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Re Tamir Rice, Black Lives Matter hasn't informed us what the police are supposed to do about blacks waving around Airsoft weapons that are indistinguishable from the real thing.

    Airsoft weapons come with an orange extension on the barrel to identify it as not an actual gun, but evidently Rice or someone else had removed that. When a police officer responding to 911 calls told Rice to raise his hands, he instead reached for the gun that was tucked in his waistband.

    Please, Black Lives Matter, tell us what we are supposed to do in this situation.
    , @dearieme
    Why do people use absurd euphemisms such as "take them out"? Why not say 'kill them'?
  23. “I think there has to be some kind of intelligent middle course between just shooting the poor bastard like the cops tend to do in inept Albuquerque because they can’t think of anything else to do (…)”

    They do think of other things to in inept Albuquerque – see:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-newmexico-lawsuit-idUSBRE9A603N20131107

  24. Reminds me of an Afghani chain-migrant lunatic shot by police here in San Diego.

    http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Sad-and-Troubling-Story-of-Fridoon-Rawshannehad-Man-Shot-by-Cop-303950641.html

    Of course his family, who sponsored his chain migration then abandoned him to homelessness, is now suing the city for millions.

    Something for Germany to look forward to!

    At the time of the shooting, he was subject to a deportation order. But one of the “side benefits” to the Chamber of Commerce’s war against lawyers who sue big business (aka “tort reform”) is that federal courts have basically been defunded, slowing the deportation process to a crawl.

  25. @Thagomizer
    There's one product designed by an ex-cop called "the alternative".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxE0Bd2Ooco

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9eoTW9ex00

    A gun attachment that allows a single less than lethal shot, then allow lethal shots if something goes wrong.

    The big advantage is there's isn't much additional weight to carry.

    The downside is it's slower to draw and creates legal problems if the police office doesn't have time to attach it.

    Also the downside of giving the police a solid excuse for using lethal shots after half-hearted attempts with the non-lethal shot.

  26. Maybe the police could use this as their first line of defense. A couple dozen rounds should slow the most determined miscreant down.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mini_gun

  27. Darn, the SALT gun is legal everywhere but California.

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    That does seem silly since they do emphasize home defense use for the gun.
  28. What’s wrong with wasting these freaks?

  29. No one can foresee pervs lining up to buy those Net Guns?

  30. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    In the right frame of mind… whatever happened to that big 10-foot wide or so mobile weather balloon on The Prisoner that would envelope whoever it was after?

    So you have this billy-club thingy that, when triggered, creates a 10-foot (?) diameter clear plastic inflatable bubble. Inflates really fast, like an air-bag. All you do then is use it as a barrier or to pin someone down. The material has to withstand samuri swords, switchblades, xacto knives, …

    If you push it the problem person fast, it literally wraps around them. You’ve got to be sure you’re the one moving on the billy-club, not on the enveloping end. You might have to be careful to use it when you and your partner can’t out-push the problem. But make it so it can’t “reverse” over the club.

    Don’t use it if the problem is armed with a gun. I wonder if you could make the bubble bullet-proof, at least for most pistol rounds?

    With all those new nano-materials, there must be something similar that can be done.

    The Prisoner:

    “…a sinister balloon-like device called Rover that recaptures – or kills – those who attempt escape.”

    Rover (The Prisoner)

    “…Rover was depicted as a large white inflatable balloon, not quite fully inflated, with a flexible skin…

    …Once released, Rover could bounce and glide across the land and sea for a long range and at high speed, faster than a vehicle or boat…

    …Rover possessed considerable strength, and was able, if necessary, to incapacitate people either by blunt force impacts, or through suffocation by engulfing them…”

  31. @Lot
    Darn, the SALT gun is legal everywhere but California.

    That does seem silly since they do emphasize home defense use for the gun.

  32. Marty [AKA "coot veal or cot deal"] says:

    I came across an armed lunatic just today. It was on the public walking path behind the San Francisco Golf Club. Big black guy, 6’2″/210, doubtless one of the homeless who camp behind the course on a strip belonging to the Water Department. He was armed with an old real wood driver, hitting shots into the course. One of them almost hit me after bouncing off a eucalyptus tree and shooting through the fence. He seems to own a lot of bicycles.

    • Replies: @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    "He was armed with an old real wood driver, hitting shots into the course."
    You sure he was black? Could have been mein host Steven getting his eye in before his triumphant return to St Andrews.
  33. @TontoBubbaGoldstein
    About five years ago, when I turned 45; Budweiser, as well as all other brands started placing powerful sedatives in their beer.

    To get yer mojo back, step up to Wreck the Hoose Juice!

    “It’ll blow your head off,” said James Grimson, smoking a cigarette outside a pub near the center of Coatbridge

    Sounds like a challenge, mate.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Cuba Libres are fighting drinks, too: caffeine and sugar and rum.
  34. Member this hero? I guess we can say he’s Steve’s people, CA people, civic spirit people and right-fine vocab people. But really, the only thing that could have stopped that maniac was a maniac a surfboard-size bigger.

    On the general point, I may have been in these situations once or twice, and the issues are. One the cops have so much accumulated knowledge of dealing with tense situations internalized by training that it makes them unbearably tense, and hence suddenly physical, like when the guy goes for a cigarette they literally man-handle him into cuffs.

    The other thing is what I really don’t like, the way they draw their guns on people they damn well know do not deserve to be shot because they literally haven’t done anything very bad. Drawing your gun should not be a reflex in say Fairfax County. I get that’s a very effective method to subdue someone who’s not being a big criminal. But that reflex is exactly what poisons police-community relations. I wanted to get drunk in the woods with my friends instead of learn Spanish damnit, and then your gun threatened to kill me for crying out loud. Whatever else that is, its hard to take them seriously when the cops display zero cool, hard to respect them like you’d like to.

    • Agree: AndrewR
  35. @Thagomizer
    Tranq darts don't actually work very well. You need adjust the amount of tranquilizer for the target's body weight. Too much he dies, too little he's just groggy and pissed off.

    Many of the bears "released into the wild" don't wake up and are quietly disposed of.

    Many of the bears “released into the wild” don’t wake up and are quietly disposed of.

    Well all right then. Maybe we will have to lay the sword-wielding lunatic next to one of those bears.

  36. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    To get yer mojo back, step up to Wreck the Hoose Juice!

    “It’ll blow your head off,” said James Grimson, smoking a cigarette outside a pub near the center of Coatbridge
     
    Sounds like a challenge, mate.

    Cuba Libres are fighting drinks, too: caffeine and sugar and rum.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    They're not margaritas, but I can imagine a couple of squabbling Parrot Heads blowing out their flip-flops after chugging a few.
    , @Brutusale
    If you had ever worked in a club, you'd know that ALL drinks are fighting drinks.
  37. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    That still leaves the problem of lunatics with guns.
     
    Lone suspects with guns (no hostages): Tactically and procedurally (from a law enforcement doctrine standpoint) there is no “problem.” Cops are trained to take them out. One exception would be a suicidal person with the muzzle fast to their own head, then maybe negotiation can take place… the second the gun is waved around, POP-POP-POP!—problem solved.

    The six million dollar lotto payout in the Tamir Rice case is not an indication of failed tactics or doctrine, it is a reflection of current who/whom politics.

    Re Tamir Rice, Black Lives Matter hasn’t informed us what the police are supposed to do about blacks waving around Airsoft weapons that are indistinguishable from the real thing.

    Airsoft weapons come with an orange extension on the barrel to identify it as not an actual gun, but evidently Rice or someone else had removed that. When a police officer responding to 911 calls told Rice to raise his hands, he instead reached for the gun that was tucked in his waistband.

    Please, Black Lives Matter, tell us what we are supposed to do in this situation.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Please, Black Lives Matter, tell us what we are supposed to do in this situation"

    We are supposed to give up our guns and bend over.
  38. Here’re the Thai police dealing with someone clearly not in possession of his faculties:

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks, I'll add the video.
  39. @gruff
    Regarding mellow Portland, the aggressive homeless population here is getting out of hand. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some notable violent incidents this summer.

    Indeed. I moved here just as the court order re police handling of mentally ill arrests was taking effect. All sounds fishy, like Holder’s Justice Dept and local allies couldn’t work up a racial lawsuit and subsequent court order, so settled on the mentally ill angle. As far as I can see the cops do whatever they do with a pretty low profile. I’m willing to bet they get away with a relatively light hand because it’s still Portland. Not for long maybe.

    But the homeless are more numerous and sketchy every day, with summer on the way.

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    And--what do you know--it's the Conquistador American of the moment, in his capacity as prosecutor for Holder's Justice, behind the policy.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/us_justice_department_launches.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._City_of_Portland

    Letting the crazy guy wander off is kind of like releasing wild animals not into the wild, but the city streets. Crazy.

  40. we had a deal, the state persecutes crminals, and “we the people” abstain from blood feud and stuff (“monopoly on physical force”)

    when the state fails to persecute criminals, it isn’t holding up its end of the bargain.

  41. These kind of ideas would never fly with lawyers or mothers of color. Where would the taxpayer funded settlements come from then?

  42. @Dennis Dale
    Indeed. I moved here just as the court order re police handling of mentally ill arrests was taking effect. All sounds fishy, like Holder's Justice Dept and local allies couldn't work up a racial lawsuit and subsequent court order, so settled on the mentally ill angle. As far as I can see the cops do whatever they do with a pretty low profile. I'm willing to bet they get away with a relatively light hand because it's still Portland. Not for long maybe.

    But the homeless are more numerous and sketchy every day, with summer on the way.

    And–what do you know–it’s the Conquistador American of the moment, in his capacity as prosecutor for Holder’s Justice, behind the policy.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/us_justice_department_launches.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._City_of_Portland

    Letting the crazy guy wander off is kind of like releasing wild animals not into the wild, but the city streets. Crazy.

  43. The Japanese have a long history of non-lethally subduing and disarming rogue swordsmen.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_hunt

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitte

  44. @PiltdownMan
    These videos below from the UK are pertinent, though the second one is compiled from the viewpoint of advocacy. The one with the 30 cops is worth looking at closely.

    It should be noted that in the old days, policemen in America were usually not armed but quite handy with their nightsticks. They could often deftly crack a collarbone, elbow or skull to end a situation non-lethally, though ensuing fatalities in hospital, long after the encounters, are not recorded.

    These days, S.O.P. in other advanced Western countries is to back off and call for backup, and safe protocols for dealing with the mentally ill are drilled into cops.

    I don't know what proportion of US police departments use such non-lethal protocols, but there certainly is a doctrine in many police departments that the police, upon arriving at a scene, should establish command presence, control, and obedience immediately. In this school of thinking, if this fails to happen, escalation with overwhelming force should be the immediate response, in order to flip the situation into that desired state. Fatalities are a by-product.

    In order to relieve the officers of any hesitation or second thoughts, it is, of course, necessary to have a culture of judicial and prosecutorial benefit of the doubt, sympathetic internal review philosophies, and unwavering police union support for police officers who have "had to" take life in the course of work.

    Could America's police departments do better with the mentally ill? Right now, there is a one size fits all approach in some P.D.s who do not differentiate between situations involving the criminally violent and the merely mentally ill violent. Many U.S. police would reasonably argue that there is no practical difference between the two types of situations.

    I'm curious, though, to hear the other side. What proportion of such encounters are actually resolved in the US with methods not dissimilar to those in the below UK videos? We really don't know. It could be the norm, rather than the exception.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw&gl=SG&hl=en-GB

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTLP9rDiN4

    US police departments have eliminated many impact weapons. Cops used to carry a sap; that’s almost completely gone now. You’ll notice they don’t carry those big 4 D-cell flashlights, either. They’re not approved for use in whacking someone. A lot of the nightsticks have been replaced by collapsable batons, which don’t have the same effects.

  45. @Harry Baldwin
    Re Tamir Rice, Black Lives Matter hasn't informed us what the police are supposed to do about blacks waving around Airsoft weapons that are indistinguishable from the real thing.

    Airsoft weapons come with an orange extension on the barrel to identify it as not an actual gun, but evidently Rice or someone else had removed that. When a police officer responding to 911 calls told Rice to raise his hands, he instead reached for the gun that was tucked in his waistband.

    Please, Black Lives Matter, tell us what we are supposed to do in this situation.

    “Please, Black Lives Matter, tell us what we are supposed to do in this situation”

    We are supposed to give up our guns and bend over.

  46. @Steve Sailer
    Cuba Libres are fighting drinks, too: caffeine and sugar and rum.

    They’re not margaritas, but I can imagine a couple of squabbling Parrot Heads blowing out their flip-flops after chugging a few.

  47. @disambiguated
    Here're the Thai police dealing with someone clearly not in possession of his faculties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25n6z7uhTKE

    Thanks, I’ll add the video.

  48. I work with ex-cons. Lots of them have stories about a farmer with a load of salt in his shotgun. It hurts about as much as a taser (I’m told, tried neither myself). It’s a long gun, so average humans can hit stuff reliably. We are likely to keep issuing tasers to cops because they look high-tech and cost enough that there’s money to bribe procurement people.

  49. anon • Disclaimer says:

    What’s often forgotten in this is all the times the lunatics with machetes take a young mother’s head half off in a store in front of their six year old.

    Personally I think waving a machete around is a pretty clear sign someone probably needs shooting.

    (It would be different if they were locked up properly but shrinks are always wanting to “cure” people so they keep letting them out again until they kill someone – and sometimes even after doing it.)

    (Although on an individual level I admire the bravery of the people with the nets and poles.)

  50. @Lugash
    I'd roll back the disastrous de-institutionalization push of the late 1970s and early 1980s. Fixing the problem on the street is dangerous no matter what equipment and training you've got.

    I’d roll back the disastrous de-institutionalization push of the late 1970s and early 1980s.

    100%

    • Replies: @SFG
    That would cost money, which is the reason it happened in the first place.
  51. Singapore is the most law & order country in the world and it’s an immigrant country. But notice they are extremely selective in what type of immigrants they let in.

    Singapore does not let in too many Arab Muslims and Black immigrants, because these two demographics will destroy the law & order society that Singapore has worked hard to create.

    Singapore law enforcement does not have to deal with a lot of Michael Brown types and Syrian rapists.

    • Replies: @NickG
    Singapore works because it is 80% Han Chinese and an authoritarian paternalistic state, it is NOT a liberal democracy. By 'work', I mean it has great economic performance stretching back over half a century, and brilliant social indicators.

    It is the size of the island of Anglesey off the cost of North Wales and has 5.5 million people and is just off the equator.

    As well as its demographics, it has benefited from its position on trade routes, the British colonial legacy - in law, property and contract rights, the English language and post independence good governance, bequeathed by the People's Action Party led by Harry Lee, better known as Lee Kuan Yew.

    Given demographics within certain tolerances* and good governance, it is possible to have well functioning vibrant multiculturalism. But it is not possible to have multiculturalism and functioning liberal democracy.

    * Singapore wouldn't work anything like it does if instead of being 80% Han Chinese, it was - say 80% black South African.

  52. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    What is the justification for keeping a violent person alive if that person is crazy? I don’t want to pay taxes to institutionalize them or keep them on welfare, or have to worry about them attacking me because they’re like a pit bull let loose on the street–maybe they’ll turn violent for no reason, maybe not. But the constant threat of their violence makes them like tyrants who always threatening the life and liberty of other people.

    I’m all for shooting them. To do otherwise is sentimentalism. America has become a society that is so askew in its philosophy that to protect one individual, we choose to endanger a whole group of others–and refuse to recognize the right of those others to be protected all. That’s classic muddle-headed libtard thinking.

    Would you go back in time to kill Hitler if it would save the lives of tens of millions of people? Liberal always say no, because murder is wrong (even though liberals tend to be atheists who don’t believe in a punishing God in an afterlife–so by their own philosophy, there’s no penalty for murdering Hitler). Conservatives say, Of course I would, are you dumb? It’s tens of millions of lives weighted against one life, and if that one life is incredibly evil, then there’s no problem making this decision. You kill Hitler, of course.

    • Replies: @SFG
    People on this board say, no, I like what he did.

    Seriously: too many people have guns in this country. The nonlethal thing does well in Japan. I'm a Second Amendment guy myself, but you pays your money and you takes your choice.

  53. Would you go back in time to kill Hitler if it would save the lives of tens of millions of people? Liberal always say no, because murder is wrong (even though liberals tend to be atheists who don’t believe in a punishing God in an afterlife–so by their own philosophy, there’s no penalty for murdering Hitler). Conservatives say, Of course I would, are you dumb? It’s tens of millions of lives weighted against one life, and if that one life is incredibly evil, then there’s no problem making this decision. You kill Hitler, of course.

    The trouble with this kind of argument is that time travel is a fantasy with no relevance to he real world, and hence the hypothetical has no relevance to the real world. It just sounds clever with all the benefits of hindsight that never exist in the real world.

    All it does is to provide encouragement to all those leftists who believe in killing traditionalists, nationalists and other “potential Hitlers” (in their eyes) now, in the real world, “just in case”. And a few non-leftists seeking similar justifications for their own acts of violence, of course.

    See, for instance, the case of Pim Fortuyn.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    No, the Lefties are actually right in this case. The trouble with going back in time to kill Hitler to save "millions" is that there are now about 7 billion people on this planet born post-1940. The birth circumstances of virtually all of them were affected by World War 2. Travel back in time to kill Hitler and nearly all of us would be erased from history, having never been born. I don't see the moral logic in killing billions in order to save a few million.
    , @AndrewR
    Why Hitler? Why not Churchill, Roosevelt or Stalin? Or Showa, Tojo or Mussolini for that matter?
  54. @Marty
    I came across an armed lunatic just today. It was on the public walking path behind the San Francisco Golf Club. Big black guy, 6'2"/210, doubtless one of the homeless who camp behind the course on a strip belonging to the Water Department. He was armed with an old real wood driver, hitting shots into the course. One of them almost hit me after bouncing off a eucalyptus tree and shooting through the fence. He seems to own a lot of bicycles.

    “He was armed with an old real wood driver, hitting shots into the course.”
    You sure he was black? Could have been mein host Steven getting his eye in before his triumphant return to St Andrews.

  55. Leftist conservative [AKA "Make Unz.com Great Again"] says: • Website

    these pansy methods of subduing shooters are not The American Way. That’s not who we are.

    Our police shoot. They shoot to kill. They beat and crush the offenders with their batons. And we televise such police shootings and beatings. And we love it. We crave the blood of the transgressor, of the violator, of the offender. Violence is in our blood. America started as a white slave colony and morphed into a black slave colony. And violence was necessary to control the slaves. Floggings. Beatings. The crack of the whip. The gallows. The firing squad. We love the taste of blood. We no longer get to see our criminals be punished because the criminal “justice” system aka The Correctional Industrial Complex has subverted and perverted the traditional blood-oriented punishment phase. The punishment of the offender is now eliminated or hidden away. The societal catharsis and growth available via public punishment has been eliminated, sad to say.

    So we satisfy our need for violence and justice, our taste for blood, in other ways. Such as by shooting mentally-shaky transgressors, the offenders. Drink deeply and slake thy thirst.

    Or you can just wait for football season, instead….

  56. If someone is armed with a deadly weapon, just shoot him.

    If, for some reason, you can’t shoot the guy, why not get the riot squad out? Lock shields, advance, apply truncheon until the problem is unconscious.

  57. I don’t like or worship cops, and I’m quite uncomfortable with the trigger-happy nature many of them have.

    That being said, in fairness to them, their ability to engage with or without lethal force is really situation-dependent. Cops, just lite everybody else, are only supposed to respond with lethal force if they are immediately threatened with the same and their own lives are in danger. That really depends on the situation. If you roll up on some guy and you don’t know that he’s mentally ill, but he’s pointing what appears to be a gun at you — or maybe he’s 10 feet away and waving a knife or sword — there’s really no option to but to engage with your handgun.

    That being said, if the cop has the ability to establish a safety perimeter, and there’s no immediate threat to others, and the cop has the ability to interact with the subject to determine his mental status, then of course he should absolutely be using non-lethal force.

    The Albuquerque shooting is an example of stupid, trigger-happy cops doing the opposite. They had all the time in the world to wait the guy out, but they got impatient. The subject was not threatening anyone else in the immediate vicinity. And the cops shot him with 12-ga non-lethal bean-bag rounds AFTER Johnny Tactical in his Kevlar shot the guy IN THE BACK with an M-4.

    Nuts.

  58. @anon

    I’d roll back the disastrous de-institutionalization push of the late 1970s and early 1980s.
     
    100%

    That would cost money, which is the reason it happened in the first place.

    • Replies: @anon
    Exactly so out of three options

    a) locking them up somewhere safe
    b) letting them roam around poor areas until they eventually kill some random poor person
    c) shooting them when they wave machetes around

    i'd pick (a) first and (c) second.

    A lot of people who'd pick (b) don't live or work in the places where it happens. If they did they'd pick (a) or (c) too.
  59. @Anon
    What is the justification for keeping a violent person alive if that person is crazy? I don't want to pay taxes to institutionalize them or keep them on welfare, or have to worry about them attacking me because they're like a pit bull let loose on the street--maybe they'll turn violent for no reason, maybe not. But the constant threat of their violence makes them like tyrants who always threatening the life and liberty of other people.

    I'm all for shooting them. To do otherwise is sentimentalism. America has become a society that is so askew in its philosophy that to protect one individual, we choose to endanger a whole group of others--and refuse to recognize the right of those others to be protected all. That's classic muddle-headed libtard thinking.

    Would you go back in time to kill Hitler if it would save the lives of tens of millions of people? Liberal always say no, because murder is wrong (even though liberals tend to be atheists who don't believe in a punishing God in an afterlife--so by their own philosophy, there's no penalty for murdering Hitler). Conservatives say, Of course I would, are you dumb? It's tens of millions of lives weighted against one life, and if that one life is incredibly evil, then there's no problem making this decision. You kill Hitler, of course.

    People on this board say, no, I like what he did.

    Seriously: too many people have guns in this country. The nonlethal thing does well in Japan. I’m a Second Amendment guy myself, but you pays your money and you takes your choice.

  60. British Troops in the Northern Ireland ‘Troubles’ used baton rounds. The cartridge looked like an enlarged shotgun shell and the projectile within it was white cylindrical and rubbery plastic, it look like a section of thick candle, rather bigger than a D cell/ U2 battery. These rounds are fired from an FRG – Federal Riot Gun. Basically a large bore, single shot, smooth bore, long barrelled, enlarged flare-gun

    Batton rounds were supposed to be fired at the legs, the minimum safety distance was 15 metres – that is you are not supposed to shoot someone closer than that. There were a few fatalities caused, but they are quite effective and, no-doubt, the net effect was considerably fewer rioter casualties from lethal 7.62 x 51mm ball ammunition than otherwise would have been the case. Rules of engagement for troops in Northern Ireland were detailed in writing on the famous ‘yellow card’, it was legal to shoot petrol bomb throwers, though as with all use of force ‘reasonable force’ was the legal standard, so that was rarely done.

    Baton rounds serve to keep distance between petrol bombing, or stone throwing rioters and the security forces. I understand that a number of UK police forces have Riot Guns and baton rounds in their inventory, including the London police – the Met’.

    Baton round

    • Replies: @anon
    Yes they work. The root of the problem is a lot of influential people don't want to *see* any violence and so they keep changing the rules until they don't.

    It's still there and usually worse but *they* don't see it so it's okay.
  61. Some of the lunatics with guns are cops. They suffer from paranoia. For example, if somebody tries to escape from a traffic stop the cops often think that the person is trying to kill a cop when, in reality, they are just trying to escape. A guy I know of is currently doing 8 months in jail for this, but really he is lucky that they did not kill him on the spot.

  62. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    That still leaves the problem of lunatics with guns.
     
    Lone suspects with guns (no hostages): Tactically and procedurally (from a law enforcement doctrine standpoint) there is no “problem.” Cops are trained to take them out. One exception would be a suicidal person with the muzzle fast to their own head, then maybe negotiation can take place… the second the gun is waved around, POP-POP-POP!—problem solved.

    The six million dollar lotto payout in the Tamir Rice case is not an indication of failed tactics or doctrine, it is a reflection of current who/whom politics.

    Why do people use absurd euphemisms such as “take them out”? Why not say ‘kill them’?

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Why not say ‘kill them’?
     
    I don’t use absurd euphemisms, I use apropos euphemisms. Watch to the end of the linked video. The hard-charging officer took Super Mario right out of the ballgame. The perp not only wasn’t killed, he survived with minor injuries.
  63. @Jefferson
    Singapore is the most law & order country in the world and it's an immigrant country. But notice they are extremely selective in what type of immigrants they let in.

    Singapore does not let in too many Arab Muslims and Black immigrants, because these two demographics will destroy the law & order society that Singapore has worked hard to create.

    Singapore law enforcement does not have to deal with a lot of Michael Brown types and Syrian rapists.

    Singapore works because it is 80% Han Chinese and an authoritarian paternalistic state, it is NOT a liberal democracy. By ‘work’, I mean it has great economic performance stretching back over half a century, and brilliant social indicators.

    It is the size of the island of Anglesey off the cost of North Wales and has 5.5 million people and is just off the equator.

    As well as its demographics, it has benefited from its position on trade routes, the British colonial legacy – in law, property and contract rights, the English language and post independence good governance, bequeathed by the People’s Action Party led by Harry Lee, better known as Lee Kuan Yew.

    Given demographics within certain tolerances* and good governance, it is possible to have well functioning vibrant multiculturalism. But it is not possible to have multiculturalism and functioning liberal democracy.

    * Singapore wouldn’t work anything like it does if instead of being 80% Han Chinese, it was – say 80% black South African.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Singapore wouldn’t work anything like it does if instead of being 80% Han Chinese, it was – say 80% black South African."

    You are just repeating what I said. Singapore does not let in a lot of immigrants from countries that have a reputation for high rates of rape and or murder.

    Western countries let in any immigrant who has a working pulse. Hence why a high percentage of immigrants in The U.S and Western Europe come from very violent countries.
  64. @Randal

    Would you go back in time to kill Hitler if it would save the lives of tens of millions of people? Liberal always say no, because murder is wrong (even though liberals tend to be atheists who don’t believe in a punishing God in an afterlife–so by their own philosophy, there’s no penalty for murdering Hitler). Conservatives say, Of course I would, are you dumb? It’s tens of millions of lives weighted against one life, and if that one life is incredibly evil, then there’s no problem making this decision. You kill Hitler, of course.
     
    The trouble with this kind of argument is that time travel is a fantasy with no relevance to he real world, and hence the hypothetical has no relevance to the real world. It just sounds clever with all the benefits of hindsight that never exist in the real world.

    All it does is to provide encouragement to all those leftists who believe in killing traditionalists, nationalists and other "potential Hitlers" (in their eyes) now, in the real world, "just in case". And a few non-leftists seeking similar justifications for their own acts of violence, of course.

    See, for instance, the case of Pim Fortuyn.

    No, the Lefties are actually right in this case. The trouble with going back in time to kill Hitler to save “millions” is that there are now about 7 billion people on this planet born post-1940. The birth circumstances of virtually all of them were affected by World War 2. Travel back in time to kill Hitler and nearly all of us would be erased from history, having never been born. I don’t see the moral logic in killing billions in order to save a few million.

    • Replies: @Randal

    No, the Lefties are actually right in this case.
     
    In what sense?

    The problem is not the one you describe, which actually makes little sense (what does it even mean, to "kill" people by changing history so they were never born?) The problem is that in reality you never have even the kind of dubious certainty that hindsight provides in the kinds of fantasy scenarios the "go back in time to kill Hitler" fantasists propose.
  65. Now I understand the deeper historical reasons behind this Japanese robot:

    Until now, just another puzzling video from the Far East.

  66. Rodney King was not shot even though he tried to disarm a CHP officer and then the LAPD successfully dealt with him non lethally. Result? Two bogus trials and free money for a career criminal.

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    You forgot a billion dollars property damage, 55 killed and thousands injured, and six days that might have the the death knell of any prospects for racial comity in America. Fucking Rodney King.
  67. @PiltdownMan
    These videos below from the UK are pertinent, though the second one is compiled from the viewpoint of advocacy. The one with the 30 cops is worth looking at closely.

    It should be noted that in the old days, policemen in America were usually not armed but quite handy with their nightsticks. They could often deftly crack a collarbone, elbow or skull to end a situation non-lethally, though ensuing fatalities in hospital, long after the encounters, are not recorded.

    These days, S.O.P. in other advanced Western countries is to back off and call for backup, and safe protocols for dealing with the mentally ill are drilled into cops.

    I don't know what proportion of US police departments use such non-lethal protocols, but there certainly is a doctrine in many police departments that the police, upon arriving at a scene, should establish command presence, control, and obedience immediately. In this school of thinking, if this fails to happen, escalation with overwhelming force should be the immediate response, in order to flip the situation into that desired state. Fatalities are a by-product.

    In order to relieve the officers of any hesitation or second thoughts, it is, of course, necessary to have a culture of judicial and prosecutorial benefit of the doubt, sympathetic internal review philosophies, and unwavering police union support for police officers who have "had to" take life in the course of work.

    Could America's police departments do better with the mentally ill? Right now, there is a one size fits all approach in some P.D.s who do not differentiate between situations involving the criminally violent and the merely mentally ill violent. Many U.S. police would reasonably argue that there is no practical difference between the two types of situations.

    I'm curious, though, to hear the other side. What proportion of such encounters are actually resolved in the US with methods not dissimilar to those in the below UK videos? We really don't know. It could be the norm, rather than the exception.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw&gl=SG&hl=en-GB

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTLP9rDiN4

    We will pretty much never see a YouTube video or news story of the 99/100 times when the cops talked a crazy, drunk, high, etc. person down and quietly resolved the situation with nobody shot or tazed or beaten up. Those aren’t news. This lack probably distorts the hell out of our public discussions about police misconduct.

  68. “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.” ~Herbert Spencer

    If we are going to spend so much effort on shielding such men from the effects of their folly I wish we would spend a little more effort on what to do with them afterwards.

    I lived in a town that was also home to a large mental hospital at the time that the court dumped the “patients” on the street. It wasn’t pretty. I’m all for these people and criminals to be as self supporting as possible when held in institutions, but the court fixed that, too.

  69. The “riot squad” approach gets my vote, at least for the lunatics who don’t have firearms.

  70. Not all mentally ill are violent. The ones that are are just as worthless to society as violent non mentally ill people. Soneone like this can never be trusted in public again. No need to spend millions to confine him for decades. He’d be miserable anyway.

  71. @Steve Sailer
    Cuba Libres are fighting drinks, too: caffeine and sugar and rum.

    If you had ever worked in a club, you’d know that ALL drinks are fighting drinks.

  72. Corollary: How many people hacked to death are acceptable in order to not upset the author’s sense of decorum.

    Pepperball Launch System, FN303, 40mm grenade launcher. So many options, but until you’ve dealt with a legitimate crazy person you realize sometimes only a bullet willl work.

  73. @Randal

    Would you go back in time to kill Hitler if it would save the lives of tens of millions of people? Liberal always say no, because murder is wrong (even though liberals tend to be atheists who don’t believe in a punishing God in an afterlife–so by their own philosophy, there’s no penalty for murdering Hitler). Conservatives say, Of course I would, are you dumb? It’s tens of millions of lives weighted against one life, and if that one life is incredibly evil, then there’s no problem making this decision. You kill Hitler, of course.
     
    The trouble with this kind of argument is that time travel is a fantasy with no relevance to he real world, and hence the hypothetical has no relevance to the real world. It just sounds clever with all the benefits of hindsight that never exist in the real world.

    All it does is to provide encouragement to all those leftists who believe in killing traditionalists, nationalists and other "potential Hitlers" (in their eyes) now, in the real world, "just in case". And a few non-leftists seeking similar justifications for their own acts of violence, of course.

    See, for instance, the case of Pim Fortuyn.

    Why Hitler? Why not Churchill, Roosevelt or Stalin? Or Showa, Tojo or Mussolini for that matter?

    • Replies: @Randal
    I think we all know the answer to that one - Hitler is the Big Demon because it suits lots of very influential people in the modern US sphere to have it that way.
  74. Another dilemma awaiting a high tech solution is that of Islamist terrorist groups holding up in the midst of civilian populations, like Isis in Raqqa. A gas that puts people to sleep for a few hours without endangering their lives would be ideal. Saturate a neighborhood with it, or even a whole city, and then go in and separate out the bad guys from the innocent.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Let's just hope it works better than the gas the Russians used when Chechens took hostages in a Moscow theater.

    A total of 912 people, many of them children, were held hostage in the Dubrovka theatre for three days after coming to watch Nord Ost, a popular musical, on October 23, 2002.

    The crisis ended on October 26 when Russian special forces filled the building with an unknown gas to neutralise the attackers, who had threatened to blow up the venue unless Russia pulled its troops out of Chechnya.

    The effects of the gas killed 125 people, as well as the 40 attackers who were shot after being knocked out by the gas. The hostage-takers themselves killed five people.
     
  75. @Luke Lea
    Another dilemma awaiting a high tech solution is that of Islamist terrorist groups holding up in the midst of civilian populations, like Isis in Raqqa. A gas that puts people to sleep for a few hours without endangering their lives would be ideal. Saturate a neighborhood with it, or even a whole city, and then go in and separate out the bad guys from the innocent.

    Let’s just hope it works better than the gas the Russians used when Chechens took hostages in a Moscow theater.

    A total of 912 people, many of them children, were held hostage in the Dubrovka theatre for three days after coming to watch Nord Ost, a popular musical, on October 23, 2002.

    The crisis ended on October 26 when Russian special forces filled the building with an unknown gas to neutralise the attackers, who had threatened to blow up the venue unless Russia pulled its troops out of Chechnya.

    The effects of the gas killed 125 people, as well as the 40 attackers who were shot after being knocked out by the gas. The hostage-takers themselves killed five people.

  76. @Anonymous
    Leaving the guy on the beach, waving a sword and threatening murder, was outright dereliction of duty, nothing less. But...Portland; expected. If lunatics & derelicts are to be free among us, netting them or tranking them is entirely reasonable. In a sane world. Which this isn't.

    http://wildlifecapture.com/large-animal-net-gun

    Leaving the guy on the beach, waving a sword and threatening murder, was outright dereliction of duty, nothing less. But…Portland; expected.

    To the contrary, Portland has especially trigger-happy cops.

  77. Teasing out the inputs which created our infantile and fantasizing populace with the certainty of a highly visible percentage of panicky or hostile fruitcakes is likely too little too late a long time ago. Fantasizing a publicly funded catch and release program involves the same magic math that our fellow looneys used to created $150,ooo worth of annual debt on a $75,ooo household income. We are broke and don’t even have the funds or good sense to incarcerate and rehabilitate the senators and congress creatures or other white collar criminals who depend on the poor and street freaks as bait and switch to divert attention from the violence of slaughtering the “sub men ” in their own neighborhoods and in countries who are impediments to using our money to arm the sociopaths who own China. I despise the certainty of the monstrous outcomes of eugenics, but anyone who does not understand the meaning of “its’ a cop” by age ten is probably not breeding stock. Perhaps the money given to lawyers should be spent for padded cells and coon dog shock collars interfaced with GPS cell phones.

  78. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @SFG
    That would cost money, which is the reason it happened in the first place.

    Exactly so out of three options

    a) locking them up somewhere safe
    b) letting them roam around poor areas until they eventually kill some random poor person
    c) shooting them when they wave machetes around

    i’d pick (a) first and (c) second.

    A lot of people who’d pick (b) don’t live or work in the places where it happens. If they did they’d pick (a) or (c) too.

  79. @NickG
    British Troops in the Northern Ireland 'Troubles' used baton rounds. The cartridge looked like an enlarged shotgun shell and the projectile within it was white cylindrical and rubbery plastic, it look like a section of thick candle, rather bigger than a D cell/ U2 battery. These rounds are fired from an FRG - Federal Riot Gun. Basically a large bore, single shot, smooth bore, long barrelled, enlarged flare-gun

    Batton rounds were supposed to be fired at the legs, the minimum safety distance was 15 metres - that is you are not supposed to shoot someone closer than that. There were a few fatalities caused, but they are quite effective and, no-doubt, the net effect was considerably fewer rioter casualties from lethal 7.62 x 51mm ball ammunition than otherwise would have been the case. Rules of engagement for troops in Northern Ireland were detailed in writing on the famous 'yellow card', it was legal to shoot petrol bomb throwers, though as with all use of force 'reasonable force' was the legal standard, so that was rarely done.

    Baton rounds serve to keep distance between petrol bombing, or stone throwing rioters and the security forces. I understand that a number of UK police forces have Riot Guns and baton rounds in their inventory, including the London police - the Met'.

    Baton round

    Yes they work. The root of the problem is a lot of influential people don’t want to *see* any violence and so they keep changing the rules until they don’t.

    It’s still there and usually worse but *they* don’t see it so it’s okay.

  80. @dearieme
    Why do people use absurd euphemisms such as "take them out"? Why not say 'kill them'?

    Why not say ‘kill them’?

    I don’t use absurd euphemisms, I use apropos euphemisms. Watch to the end of the linked video. The hard-charging officer took Super Mario right out of the ballgame. The perp not only wasn’t killed, he survived with minor injuries.

  81. @Wilkey
    No, the Lefties are actually right in this case. The trouble with going back in time to kill Hitler to save "millions" is that there are now about 7 billion people on this planet born post-1940. The birth circumstances of virtually all of them were affected by World War 2. Travel back in time to kill Hitler and nearly all of us would be erased from history, having never been born. I don't see the moral logic in killing billions in order to save a few million.

    No, the Lefties are actually right in this case.

    In what sense?

    The problem is not the one you describe, which actually makes little sense (what does it even mean, to “kill” people by changing history so they were never born?) The problem is that in reality you never have even the kind of dubious certainty that hindsight provides in the kinds of fantasy scenarios the “go back in time to kill Hitler” fantasists propose.

  82. @AndrewR
    Why Hitler? Why not Churchill, Roosevelt or Stalin? Or Showa, Tojo or Mussolini for that matter?

    I think we all know the answer to that one – Hitler is the Big Demon because it suits lots of very influential people in the modern US sphere to have it that way.

  83. @Thagomizer
    There's one product designed by an ex-cop called "the alternative".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxE0Bd2Ooco

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9eoTW9ex00

    A gun attachment that allows a single less than lethal shot, then allow lethal shots if something goes wrong.

    The big advantage is there's isn't much additional weight to carry.

    The downside is it's slower to draw and creates legal problems if the police office doesn't have time to attach it.

    Looks like an option.

    I was thinking why not riot equipment like a ‘baton round’ or ‘bean bag round’ fired from a maybe a one-time canister the size of a long torch?

    A bean bag round is like being hit full-on by a heavy-weight I was told. European riot squads have been known to try to bounce baton rounds off the road at short ranges against rioters (to reduce lethality). But perhaps it would be less confusing for the cops?

    By the way is the Thai capture net film a demo? Thai police have a reputation for shooting recalcitrants.

  84. Ha Ha! The first video made me think of Totoro…I felt positively “Spirited Away,” after the exhausting but amazing Northeast primary last night! It must have been the wonderful, child-like happy talk by the women (in the video) showing how to use this marvelous net – could have used it when my boys were young and we were in rugged areas.

    Maybe there should be a secret force of Miyazaki-inspired characters, wearing plush, non-threatening costumes with a “net flashlight” (and a Smith & Wesson, just in case). Fool the crazy person with plush-like, cuddly characters, into confusion, right before you net them. Shoot them if they continue to lunge at you with rage.

    I’ve often wondered if some sort of “silly force,” could be used by the police to render crazy, murderous people speechless/motionless. Maybe sending scantily-clad female ninjas/Barbarellas/Amazons in the middle of the night, all singing Madonna songs en masse or something, into various gangsta towns/cities in Syria/Iraq. Yeah, too nutty….I blame that net flashlight! SO funny. OT: somebody mentioned why use “take them out,” well, it’s more gangsta, more Mafia, like getting iced.

  85. @NickG
    Singapore works because it is 80% Han Chinese and an authoritarian paternalistic state, it is NOT a liberal democracy. By 'work', I mean it has great economic performance stretching back over half a century, and brilliant social indicators.

    It is the size of the island of Anglesey off the cost of North Wales and has 5.5 million people and is just off the equator.

    As well as its demographics, it has benefited from its position on trade routes, the British colonial legacy - in law, property and contract rights, the English language and post independence good governance, bequeathed by the People's Action Party led by Harry Lee, better known as Lee Kuan Yew.

    Given demographics within certain tolerances* and good governance, it is possible to have well functioning vibrant multiculturalism. But it is not possible to have multiculturalism and functioning liberal democracy.

    * Singapore wouldn't work anything like it does if instead of being 80% Han Chinese, it was - say 80% black South African.

    “Singapore wouldn’t work anything like it does if instead of being 80% Han Chinese, it was – say 80% black South African.”

    You are just repeating what I said. Singapore does not let in a lot of immigrants from countries that have a reputation for high rates of rape and or murder.

    Western countries let in any immigrant who has a working pulse. Hence why a high percentage of immigrants in The U.S and Western Europe come from very violent countries.

  86. How about some kind of large, portable nozzle that sprays an industrial strength, super-sticky version of silly string? Cover someone with that kind of substance (if it exists) and I doubt they’d be able to move much.

    Speaking of crazy guys with samurai swords, back in the 90s the Seattle Police managed to subdue one without anybody getting killed or seriously injured. However, the incident also featured perhaps the most painful-looking series of shots to the nads ever captured on video. He took it like a hero. They finally got him with a firehose.

    One of the problems with dealing with crazy people during a psychotic episode is that they just don’t get tired until it’s over. Also, they probably aren’t as susceptible to sedatives as most people, so the dosage would be tricky to get right. Immobilization is the best tactic.

  87. Traditionally Cops would use nightsticks or fists before they had to resort to guns. However after Rodney King and similar incidents, many cops do not carry nightsticks and many cops are not being trained to use them. It is actually better for them to shoot and say they were in fear for their lives than to be seen on video in court pummeling the suspect with fists or clubs. Also many criminals are more scared of dealing w/ female officers because they will not roll around exchanging punches w/ suspects who are likely stronger than them and are therefore more likely to just shoot them. Also once Police Departments lowered Height standards due to Hispanic and female applicants, cops became physically smaller on average.
    In NYC the Sergeant carries the non lethal equiptment in his car, but the incidents are likely to be over before he shows up with the nets or Psycho prods. Non lethal measures also frequently fail against suspects who have enough drugs in them. Tear gas, pepper spray, tasers,rubber bullets, clubs, etc. may not work against someone high on PCP for example, like Rodney King. Combine this with the fact that cops are constantly shown videos of Tueller Drills
    (effective range of a knife attack) while training, and they will shoot someone with a blade even if the person is 20 feet from them.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A friend of mine who had been a lineman in college football went through a bad manic episode. Fortunately four Chicago cops chose to gang tackle him at once rather than just shoot him, even though I'm sure they took some bruises in the tussle.

    25 years later he's fine.

  88. @John C
    Traditionally Cops would use nightsticks or fists before they had to resort to guns. However after Rodney King and similar incidents, many cops do not carry nightsticks and many cops are not being trained to use them. It is actually better for them to shoot and say they were in fear for their lives than to be seen on video in court pummeling the suspect with fists or clubs. Also many criminals are more scared of dealing w/ female officers because they will not roll around exchanging punches w/ suspects who are likely stronger than them and are therefore more likely to just shoot them. Also once Police Departments lowered Height standards due to Hispanic and female applicants, cops became physically smaller on average.
    In NYC the Sergeant carries the non lethal equiptment in his car, but the incidents are likely to be over before he shows up with the nets or Psycho prods. Non lethal measures also frequently fail against suspects who have enough drugs in them. Tear gas, pepper spray, tasers,rubber bullets, clubs, etc. may not work against someone high on PCP for example, like Rodney King. Combine this with the fact that cops are constantly shown videos of Tueller Drills
    (effective range of a knife attack) while training, and they will shoot someone with a blade even if the person is 20 feet from them.

    A friend of mine who had been a lineman in college football went through a bad manic episode. Fortunately four Chicago cops chose to gang tackle him at once rather than just shoot him, even though I’m sure they took some bruises in the tussle.

    25 years later he’s fine.

    • Replies: @John C
    My wife was a NYPD cop who retired w/ line of duty injuries. When she was in the Police Academy, a cop had hit a suspect w/ his police radio and got in alot of trouble. Everyday of the Academy they drove into the cadets heads to never hit anyone w/ a foreign object, especially the radio. On her first day on patrol she was two blocks from Port Authority bus station in front of a Methadone clinic and some nut attacked her. She hit him in the head w/ her radio (because it was heavy and already in her hand) and put him through a plate glass window. She was petrified that she was going to be fired for hitting him w/ the radio.
    In contrast I have seen former Gardai (Irish Police) who were bartenders in NY, (and all very large rugby & Gaelic Football players) take belligerent drunks out of the bar and onto the sidewalk by lifting them by the back of their belts in the blink of an eye.
    When you take the nightstick option away from cops, you wind up w/ alot more people dead as your friend can attest.
  89. @Steve Sailer
    A friend of mine who had been a lineman in college football went through a bad manic episode. Fortunately four Chicago cops chose to gang tackle him at once rather than just shoot him, even though I'm sure they took some bruises in the tussle.

    25 years later he's fine.

    My wife was a NYPD cop who retired w/ line of duty injuries. When she was in the Police Academy, a cop had hit a suspect w/ his police radio and got in alot of trouble. Everyday of the Academy they drove into the cadets heads to never hit anyone w/ a foreign object, especially the radio. On her first day on patrol she was two blocks from Port Authority bus station in front of a Methadone clinic and some nut attacked her. She hit him in the head w/ her radio (because it was heavy and already in her hand) and put him through a plate glass window. She was petrified that she was going to be fired for hitting him w/ the radio.
    In contrast I have seen former Gardai (Irish Police) who were bartenders in NY, (and all very large rugby & Gaelic Football players) take belligerent drunks out of the bar and onto the sidewalk by lifting them by the back of their belts in the blink of an eye.
    When you take the nightstick option away from cops, you wind up w/ alot more people dead as your friend can attest.

    • Replies: @another fred
    Another part of what you are talking about is revealed in your comment about the former Gardai bartenders. Police used to hire big burly guys who could intimidate and overpower people, but those standards were done away with by the demand that women be made cops too.
  90. @Penny Red
    Rodney King was not shot even though he tried to disarm a CHP officer and then the LAPD successfully dealt with him non lethally. Result? Two bogus trials and free money for a career criminal.

    You forgot a billion dollars property damage, 55 killed and thousands injured, and six days that might have the the death knell of any prospects for racial comity in America. Fucking Rodney King.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    I'm not one to dance on anyone's grave, but King's autopsy report saying that he had alcohol, marijuana, cocaine and PCP in his system when he drowned gave me a frisson of schadenfreude.
  91. @John C
    My wife was a NYPD cop who retired w/ line of duty injuries. When she was in the Police Academy, a cop had hit a suspect w/ his police radio and got in alot of trouble. Everyday of the Academy they drove into the cadets heads to never hit anyone w/ a foreign object, especially the radio. On her first day on patrol she was two blocks from Port Authority bus station in front of a Methadone clinic and some nut attacked her. She hit him in the head w/ her radio (because it was heavy and already in her hand) and put him through a plate glass window. She was petrified that she was going to be fired for hitting him w/ the radio.
    In contrast I have seen former Gardai (Irish Police) who were bartenders in NY, (and all very large rugby & Gaelic Football players) take belligerent drunks out of the bar and onto the sidewalk by lifting them by the back of their belts in the blink of an eye.
    When you take the nightstick option away from cops, you wind up w/ alot more people dead as your friend can attest.

    Another part of what you are talking about is revealed in your comment about the former Gardai bartenders. Police used to hire big burly guys who could intimidate and overpower people, but those standards were done away with by the demand that women be made cops too.

  92. @Dennis Dale
    You forgot a billion dollars property damage, 55 killed and thousands injured, and six days that might have the the death knell of any prospects for racial comity in America. Fucking Rodney King.

    I’m not one to dance on anyone’s grave, but King’s autopsy report saying that he had alcohol, marijuana, cocaine and PCP in his system when he drowned gave me a frisson of schadenfreude.

  93. How can the herd maintain it’s health when rather than attacking , driving out or abandoning/exposing the defective members it nourishes them ? We’re not exempt from the laws of nature as the present state of our society and the world at large makes plain .

  94. @Taco

    At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him.
     
    I'm not sure that the case law would back me up on this, but when the cops knowingly let an armed lunatic saunter off into the sunset, my gut tells me we are getting pretty close to the "state-created danger" doctrine of municipal liability.

    Not in the legal sense, no. It’s been pretty well established in recent court cases the cops don’t have a legal duty to protect you.

  95. At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him.

    The first time the perp goes on to slaughter a whole family will be the last time US cops “disengage” for a generation. A mayor could only survive that by throwing the police chief under the bus. Maybe not even then.

    Their options are pretty limited when it comes to a guy with a dangerous weapon. The ones that get me are when there’s fifty cops standing around and they shoot a guy who doesn’t have a dangerous weapon. The tackle has a long and glorious tradition in police work.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I'm grateful to the Chicago cops who decided to gang tackle my manic 275 pound friend rather than shoot him.
  96. @tsotha

    At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him.
     
    The first time the perp goes on to slaughter a whole family will be the last time US cops "disengage" for a generation. A mayor could only survive that by throwing the police chief under the bus. Maybe not even then.

    Their options are pretty limited when it comes to a guy with a dangerous weapon. The ones that get me are when there's fifty cops standing around and they shoot a guy who doesn't have a dangerous weapon. The tackle has a long and glorious tradition in police work.

    I’m grateful to the Chicago cops who decided to gang tackle my manic 275 pound friend rather than shoot him.

  97. @Formerly CARealist
    What about sending out an exorcist? It worked with the crazy man near the tombs when Jesus sent the demons into the pigs.

    You have to have pigs on hand at all times. Logistically problematic. Then there will be the animal rights problems too…

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