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Have her apply to MIT or Caltech rather than Harvard or Stanford.

From commenter Triumph104:

For the Fall of 2015, Caltech admitted 6% of 4781 male applicants and 16% of 1725 female applicants. Stanford admitted 5% of 22,831 male applicants and 5% of 19,666 female applicants.

MIT admitted 6% of 12,750 male applicants and 13% of 5556 female applicants.
Harvard admitted 6% of 19,506 male applicants and 6% of 17,801 female applicants.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=caltech&s=all&id=110404

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=stanford&s=all&id=243744

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=massachusetts+institute&s=all&id=166683

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=harvard&s=all&id=166027

On the other hand, about 15 years ago, I was walking across the Caltech campus in Pasadena and I overheard a sophomore coed giving a tour for potential applicants and their parents. One parent asked something like “Is the workload stressful?”

The young lady hosting the tour started to respond, but then she broke down into tears.

So I imagine the answer is “Yes.”

 
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  1. Significantly fewer females than males are applying to Caltech and MIT. These might be extraordinary female students.

    Doesn’t Caltech famously not practice affirmative action preferences?

    • Replies: @Anon
    Women-in-engineering is a big thing for colleges. Most (girls, not colleges) don't like it, which is why there are so few applicants. I came through a more minor engineering school, but there was definitely an initiative to get as many girls into the program as possible.
    , @gcochran
    Sure it does, at least for women, and for a long time: easier admission standards for women dates back to 1990.
    , @Techer
    I have some inside information on this one. For several years I was the grader for the Caltech freshman placement exams in physics, and each year out of curiosity I sorted the results by gender. The girls consistently scored about a standard deviation lower than the boys.
  2. I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn’t just that there is too much homework; it’s also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Asian girls, and more importantly their parents love top college tech nerds because the nerds will be rich, prestigious and have very intelligent babies.
    , @Anon7
    Since female students and their moms usually get what they want, those schools will need to admit more bad boys. Aren't there jerky sons of multimillionaire Chinese businessmen who are asking their dads to buy them a prestigious MIT or Caltech degree? Alpha sons of Saudi princes? Bad boy sons of African dictators?

    A generation ago, I'd have said they could admit more scions of wealthy American white families who would make good husbands, but it's 2017 and college girls want frolicsome fun in college.
    , @Luke Lea
    "I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn’t just that there is too much homework; it’s also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian."

    Or as I heard one girl explain it, "The odds were good, but the goods were odd."
    , @pepperinmono
    You are probably correct.
    A pretty 2nd generation Indian girl from my area got accepted to MIT.
    She told me the women have a saying about the guys there:
    "The odds are good, but the goods are odd."
    , @AnotherDad
    My best friend's daughter is at Caltech now.

    Caltech and MIT are excellent schools for a girl to attend *if*:

    1) The girl is *really* interested in math or the sciences, not just smart, vaguely interested and\or pushed in that direction.

    and

    2) The girl is interested in\open to having a nerd marriage.

    But if she's just a smart girl who wants (or is pushed) to go to name college and doesn't really have an absolute passion for STEM, then it will be a miserable experience--struggling studying stuff you don't love while competing against more talented boys, whom you find nerdy and unappealing.

    My friend's daughter is enjoying it. But she really *wanted* to do physics. And my friend is a genuine smart guy--40th all India on the JEE in his year--and the daughter, not surprisingly, is a smart cookie as well.
  3. Both Caltech and MIT have humanities and social science departments.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I don't know what the #'s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT's defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants - they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT - the final GPA's are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven't they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What's interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there's quite a disparity between departments - somewhere I'll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

  4. I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I’m not so sure she’d find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I’d rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    MIT and Wellesley College organize a special bus service between the two, colloquially known as the "fuck truck." The MIT boys presumably have something to recommend them, seeing as the Wellesley girls prefer a 45-minute bus ride, cold in the winter and hot in the summer, to the 10-minute drive to preppy business school Babson College.

    My anecdotal observation, and to the best of my knowledge all the available data agree, is that intelligence, attractiveness, athleticism, work ethic and eusocial behavior are all positively correlated with one another, if not hugely so.
    , @BB753
    If you want your daughters to marry nice guys and have healthy kids, don't send them to college at all. Female college graduates seldom reproduce.
    , @Truth



    No, I’d rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.
     
    Post graduation, have her apply for a job at UPS.
    , @Marty T
    There are actually lots of white jocks at Ivies, though probably not too many hunters.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    I went to an Ivy, and two of my room-mates were decent white jocks from Ohio. Probably just the kind of kid you're looking for. A lot of the football team actually fit that criteria. Problem is those boys had no interest in marrying the kind of woman who attends an Ivy League school. In fact both my room-mates ended up marrying their high school sweethearts after college.
    , @NickG
    You're on the right track. Graduate white females tend not to breed.
    , @Erik L
    I went to MIT a long time ago. The student body was very similar looking in distribution to the Ivies. When I was a freshman my fraternity brother shot a moose, so at least one hunter.
    , @Mike in Boston
    A complicating factor that Bill P fails to account for in assessing his daughter's prospects is noted in the classic lament of MIT coeds:

    "BU to bed, Wellesley to wed, MIT girls to talk to."

    Though I deviated from the formula a bit by marrying a Harvard girl.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Bill. I am saying this nicely, but it looks like you are looking for a young hunting/camping partner, not a son-in-law. You'd probably be better off just buying yourself a good hunting dog. #BlackLabsMatter.
    , @Pat Boyle
    Last season American Ninja Warrior started doing intercollegiate team competitions. One of the big rivalries was the UC team against the UCLA team. But surprisingly the team from MIT almost won it all. The winners were from some mid-Western state university with a huge enrollment but little MIT managed to finish second So it seems you can have brains and athletic ability too.

    The Ninja obstacles, of course, derive from the original Japanese TV series so there is a lot of emphasis on agility and grace but upper body strength also matters.
    , @The Practical Conservative
    They aren't likely to earn enough to support a family of any size unless she works too. Unless they're also college graduates, but that type of guy getting through college is mostly an agricultural kind of fellow.
    , @Veritatis
    Oh how I laughed!
    "I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too."

    My dad, who would say outrageous things, often said we "had to marry to better the race." He included a kind heart in his long list, which I now see was a smart move.

    "I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back "

    Yes indeed! Though I worry about a good-looking good-for-nothing, since the nerds have less of a chance in this Hollywood-driven age. Best wishes, BillP.

    , @Alvin
    Bill P says:
    April 24, 2017 at 1:33 am GMT • 100 Words
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I’m not so sure she’d find that at MIT or Caltech.

    Bill - try Stanford, great combination of brains and D1 athletics - see, for example, Christian McCaffrey. I've never met a Stanford athlete (football, basketball, baseball) that I didn't like. They are first class kids.
  5. @biz
    Significantly fewer females than males are applying to Caltech and MIT. These might be extraordinary female students.

    Doesn't Caltech famously not practice affirmative action preferences?

    Women-in-engineering is a big thing for colleges. Most (girls, not colleges) don’t like it, which is why there are so few applicants. I came through a more minor engineering school, but there was definitely an initiative to get as many girls into the program as possible.

    • Replies: @Bastion
    When I was going through engineering school, the incoming freshman class for the past X years had been 1:1 male/female. The overall ratio for undergraduates remained stubbornly at around 4 or 5 to 1 male to female. Most girls really don't like engineering. Apparently.

    I just checked the university's census for last year, and I find that after 20 odd years of trying their darndest, the male/female ratio for engineering students is now... 4 to 1.
    , @Clyde

    Women-in-engineering is a big thing for colleges. Most (girls, not colleges) don’t like it, which is why there are so few applicants.
     
    Because the real genius and inclination of normal women is children engineering. Giving birth to them and raising them while husband is out in the brutal workaday world making a living to keep this ship afloat. Women are also superior household engineers as in domestic duties, buying food and cooking, clothing the children, taking care of their sniffles and colds etc etc
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    A thought - could a girl not apply for a STEM place at a top college, then half way through term 1 ask to change to the course she actually wants to do (and which she would not have been accepted for because competition)?
  6. While applying to colleges a couple of years ago, my first-born pointed out that the overall acceptance rate at Pomona College is similar to that at Caltech—to within a decimal place. I’ll post links if I can find them again after all this time.

    Caltech is ranked #1 in the world by the UK Times Educational Supplement, for what these things are worth, though the TES is a very prestigious news publication in the field of education.

    On the other hand, I’ve heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

    I wonder what the truth is?

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    the truth is: Caltech blinked. About 6 years ago, they fell (the last American institution) for the "diversity," web. They started to accept kids from "under-served," regions/backgrounds. They upped their search for girls. They upped their acceptance of anyone but white cerebral boys.

    Full disclosure: the soccer coach at Caltech (C soccer, has never won a game, never), was all excited that with the foreign boys (also good soccer players) and my son (New England - premier and varsity/all state), white; so - fougetaboudid - Caltech could finally have a winning team. The coach sent him several messages....but no. BTW, this is not a joke.

    Of course, this eldest son, despite being in the top 1% nationally, and, with 3 Varsity sports (2 good for Caltech; rugby not so much) and Robotics, chess, orchestra, several languages....well, he was not accepted.

    I have great schools for girls who are STEM oriented, btw - schools where they would be happy...but, send me a message. I told my son: Caltech made a big mistake with you; they would have finally started a new phase: a small, most prestigious science school/college/U with very smart, worldly/multi-national kids, who are also good at some sports...vs...the last 40 years. Did I mention that American parents would pay the full-freight (go into debt - Caltech gives no scholarships, duh) for their typical white child, if that child was accepted at Caltech?

    , @cthulhu


    On the other hand, I’ve heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

     

    I work with quite a few people with masters and doctorate engineering degrees from top tier schools - Caltech, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA / UCSD / UC Davis, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc. Note that I have an engineering degree from a solidly respected but not worshipped state school, but am one of the top technical people in my field - aerospace engineering - at my company. All of the above are very good schools and I can't see any significant difference between any of them in the fields of aerospace and mechanical engineering, with two exceptions: the people from Cal Poly SLO and Purdue come out of college with a better background in design and analysis aimed at, you know, actually building stuff that works instead of doing research.

    But in the end, the person's capabilities are much more important than the specific school, as long as the school meets reasonable standards that pretty much every decent state school in engineering can meet. Smart and resourceful people will pick up the skills needed to do the jobs they are asked to do.
    , @JimB
    Unless your ambition is to die of overwork syndrome in your 30s or find yourself out of a job at 40, it probably doesn't make sense to get a typical engineering degree. Whether it's laying train tracks over the Sierras or laying out a circuit with a billion transistors, you will lose to the Chinese every time. Better to get a polysci or psychology degree from a prestigious liberal arts college and parlay that into a CEO job.
    , @Anon 2
    Caltech no longer has many Nobel Prize
    winners, people like Feynman or Gell-Mann,
    so the bloom is off the rose. Also a couple of Caltech
    physicists participated in the invention of string
    theories which turned out to be a dud. Even John
    Horgan (Scientific American) had a column recently,
    "How Physics Lost Its Fizz." The low-hanging fruit
    has already been plucked, and so these days physics,
    chemistry, and math are no longer very exciting.
    Nobody wants to use the word "stagnation," but
    that's what it is. Many American-born students these
    days think that the Universe is not terribly interesting.
    They are surprised that Asian students are still interested
    in a field like physics which they describe as "hard, dull, and useless."
  7. Yes, our daughter was admitted to Caltech, but did not go there. Instead, she followed my advice to take Linear Algebra course and then to do whatever she wanted to do with her life. So in 9 years from the moment of non-going to Caltech, she got Ph.D. in placenta research from University of California, campus San Francisco. My wife and I, we wish her to be happy with whatever she likes.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    What are your grandchild prospects?
    , @Opinionator
    That's a nice story.

    Why did you advise her to take linear algebra?
  8. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    MIT and Wellesley College organize a special bus service between the two, colloquially known as the “fuck truck.” The MIT boys presumably have something to recommend them, seeing as the Wellesley girls prefer a 45-minute bus ride, cold in the winter and hot in the summer, to the 10-minute drive to preppy business school Babson College.

    My anecdotal observation, and to the best of my knowledge all the available data agree, is that intelligence, attractiveness, athleticism, work ethic and eusocial behavior are all positively correlated with one another, if not hugely so.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Babson has a lot of international students, especially rich Indians and Middle Eastern kids, it never struck me as being all that preppy. Babson grads do pretty well, but it still doesn't have anywhere near the social cachet of MIT.
    , @SportsFan
    Babson boys come to Wellesley College (in pickup trucks). Wellesley and Babson colleges are barely a mile apart, you can walk from one to the other in 15-20 minutes on the crosstown path. More importantly for the host, both border golf courses, though their architecture looks so-so to me (I'm no expert, though).
    I know plenty of MIT and Wellesley College students and grads. Most are nice, kind, well-adjusted people, very smart and hard-working, of course, and some are even athletic and outdoorsy. But they're not the type that end up in the news. An attractive white female would do extremely well at MIT in terms of marriageable partner selection.
  9. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    If you want your daughters to marry nice guys and have healthy kids, don’t send them to college at all. Female college graduates seldom reproduce.

    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @Rod1963
    Yes I remember reading that stat some years back that, a college education will kill a woman's reproductive chances. Kiss of death so to speak.

    I can understand why, the woman buys into the meaningful corporate career crap put out by feminist and corporate PR firms, likes the money she's bringing in and then she puts off being a mommy until it's too late or worse, ends up a old maid who didn't get picked by her sell by date.

    And if they do have kids. it's generally one. End of bloodline for both parents.

    Slightly OT: I just wonder if this is the mechanism so to speak that is responsible for the cold death of whites and Western Civ.
    , @JimB
    An overgeneralization, to be sure. Send your daughter to a Catholic college or BYU, and there is a very decent chance they will graduate with an engagement ring.
    , @S. Anonyia
    Where do spouses from half-decent backgrounds meet in your world? The military? A Mennonite quilting bee? High school? Seems like a worse selection there.

    Perhaps college doesn't lead to coupling/marriage in the northeast or California but it does for 60-75 percent of students in flyover country. Most of my social circle met their spouse in college. The few couples I know who met in high school or at work have pretty rocky marriages.
    , @The Practical Conservative
    Not quite true.

    https://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/the-marginal-child-in-2014/

    This isn't filtered for college attendance, but birth rates for women aged 30-40 (a close proxy) have been increasing for about a decade steadily and consistently.

    A college degree doesn't impact fertility like it used to. Even advanced degrees have less of an effect than you'd think.

    People, especially college-educated ones, are moving into a fertility pattern of marriage in late 20s/early 30s and 2-4 children, among married couples.
  10. 4 Bill P. > No, I’d rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    so, what have you DONE to make that more likely? Which high school is she in? Did you tell her that if she wants to go to college, she can pay for it herself?

    Move your family to Afula. There’s a metric shit-ton of Russian Orthodox boys in the public schools there who get 3 years of Real Life in their face when they do their conscript service in the IDF infantry.

    As a native English-speaking high-IQ female, your daughter will almost certainly (when drafted) be assigned to a fairly comfortable dayjob doing office work in the Air Force, whose maintenance divisions operate mostly in American English, at least as far as written texts go.

    Or as a straight-up English teacher (the Air Force here runs their own English schools). In that assignment, your daughter will be at home with you every weekend, and for some of them – every night. Depends on how close their family lives to an airbase. They do get an actual own room on base in the barracks, but to be honest…. those are spartan.

    https://www.mitgaisim.idf.il/תפקידים/מדריכת-אנגלית-טכנית-בחיל-האוויר/

    By the way, the city is also quite a major center for ballroom-dancing contests.

    You know, Bill – i’m so old that I can remember when the USAF ran its own in-house farm-to-fork meat-livestock operation….

  11. How to get your child into Harvard, or any Ivy League school? Give them millions….

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    not millions: multi-millions...chips are up.
  12. Speaking of sneaky affirmative action, I applied as a transfer student to UCLA and UC Berkeley, and I checked off the hispanic box (I’m 1/8 mexican). I’ll let you know how things turn out since I hear back this week. Wish me luck! 🙂

    • Replies: @JW Bell
    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it's easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).
    , @Autochthon
    Pffft, keep up, will you? Joking aside, I laud your efforts, but I encourage you to not be shy about them.

    In addition to my (inarguable and documented) status as a combat veteran, I always indicate my identification as an African-American Hispanic who also idenfiies as "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Or Transgendered" (the applications don't seem to ever ask for specificity about who I am boinking the way they do my race...).

    Who's to tell me I am not? I don't know what effect my choices actually have, but I've gotten interviews right through to in-person meetings and offers of employment. So my choices aren't hurting me, and perhaps they are keeping my résumé from being placed in the circular file early on.

    I'll beat the drum until I have carpal tunnel: Don't play the game; it's rigged against white people and males (or, rather, do play the game – correctly, like the privileged little Mohammedan who cares so much about black people he is going to Stanford, where there aren't any to speak of, and he may well not so much as see one for weeks at a time!).
  13. @jimbojones
    I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn't just that there is too much homework; it's also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian.

    Asian girls, and more importantly their parents love top college tech nerds because the nerds will be rich, prestigious and have very intelligent babies.

  14. @jimbojones
    I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn't just that there is too much homework; it's also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian.

    Since female students and their moms usually get what they want, those schools will need to admit more bad boys. Aren’t there jerky sons of multimillionaire Chinese businessmen who are asking their dads to buy them a prestigious MIT or Caltech degree? Alpha sons of Saudi princes? Bad boy sons of African dictators?

    A generation ago, I’d have said they could admit more scions of wealthy American white families who would make good husbands, but it’s 2017 and college girls want frolicsome fun in college.

  15. @PiltdownMan
    While applying to colleges a couple of years ago, my first-born pointed out that the overall acceptance rate at Pomona College is similar to that at Caltech—to within a decimal place. I'll post links if I can find them again after all this time.

    Caltech is ranked #1 in the world by the UK Times Educational Supplement, for what these things are worth, though the TES is a very prestigious news publication in the field of education.

    On the other hand, I've heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

    I wonder what the truth is?

    the truth is: Caltech blinked. About 6 years ago, they fell (the last American institution) for the “diversity,” web. They started to accept kids from “under-served,” regions/backgrounds. They upped their search for girls. They upped their acceptance of anyone but white cerebral boys.

    Full disclosure: the soccer coach at Caltech (C soccer, has never won a game, never), was all excited that with the foreign boys (also good soccer players) and my son (New England – premier and varsity/all state), white; so – fougetaboudid – Caltech could finally have a winning team. The coach sent him several messages….but no. BTW, this is not a joke.

    Of course, this eldest son, despite being in the top 1% nationally, and, with 3 Varsity sports (2 good for Caltech; rugby not so much) and Robotics, chess, orchestra, several languages….well, he was not accepted.

    I have great schools for girls who are STEM oriented, btw – schools where they would be happy…but, send me a message. I told my son: Caltech made a big mistake with you; they would have finally started a new phase: a small, most prestigious science school/college/U with very smart, worldly/multi-national kids, who are also good at some sports…vs…the last 40 years. Did I mention that American parents would pay the full-freight (go into debt – Caltech gives no scholarships, duh) for their typical white child, if that child was accepted at Caltech?

    • Replies: @Alden
    Wait a year and check the black instead of White box.
  16. @Anon
    Women-in-engineering is a big thing for colleges. Most (girls, not colleges) don't like it, which is why there are so few applicants. I came through a more minor engineering school, but there was definitely an initiative to get as many girls into the program as possible.

    When I was going through engineering school, the incoming freshman class for the past X years had been 1:1 male/female. The overall ratio for undergraduates remained stubbornly at around 4 or 5 to 1 male to female. Most girls really don’t like engineering. Apparently.

    I just checked the university’s census for last year, and I find that after 20 odd years of trying their darndest, the male/female ratio for engineering students is now… 4 to 1.

  17. I onced worked with a woman whose daughter had enrolled in MIT. Dad was a physics professor and mom was no slouch herself, so MIT seemed like a sound choice. A few years into her program, however, the girl had a nervous collapse over the workload, dropped out, moved back into her parents’ house, and started waiting tables.

    OK, the parents thought, she needs some time to decompress, kick back, and get her thoughts in order. But the waitressing phase seemed to drag on indefinitely. The parents realized that MIT had been an overreach, but assumed that she would transer to another school. The daughter, however, wasn’t having it. She wasn’t interested at that point in studying anything anywhere in any school that called itself a university or institute of . . . . whatever.

    Don’t know how it all worked out.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    I know about a half dozen people who flunked or dropped out of MIT and went on to highly successful tech careers. My brother - admittedly pretty smart - graduated from MIT in the mid 1970s and always claimed that it was actually much easier to get through the school than it looked on paper. For example, the 25 out of 100 points on the organic final actually translated into a B+/A-. I suspect that there are two kinds of students that MIT drives into nervous breakdowns: (1) the affirmative action admissions that just can't handle the program; and (2) the super grinds who cannot accept that they are in an environment where they are not always going to be even in the top 50% let alone the top 10%.
    , @Francis G.
    Sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree. My father was a physics prof, my mother a biology major, my grandfathers and uncles all engineers...and I couldn't care less about about physics or engineering. My father is also a stereotypical unathletic nerd, whereas I was participated in lots of contact sports. I did end up going to university, and did well there, but majored in liberal arts and wound up working in a field totally unrelated to anything my family worked in.
    , @Rod1963
    The school crushed her emotionally, made her hate higher ed. Some people aren't meant for higher ed and life as a grinder in some cube farm. Really that's all it's good for. You really have to have a bad case of OCD to handle it without going bonkers.

    Even if they make it through school, they can still burn out from insane schedules that wreck their physical and mental health.

    Some end up as truck drivers or gardeners. I knew two men who had graduate degrees in CS from Carnegie Mellon who walked away from cherry jobs at Northrop. One became a salesman and another just went into the tall grass. The point was they experienced what a grind most tech work is and after spending almost two years getting their graduate degree just couldn't take it anymore.

    Humans aren't machines.
    , @Triumph104
    Something similar happened in the news last year. Mom has a PhD from MIT in toxicology. Her daughter, Nayla, was a star in high school but getting Bs and Cs as an engineering major at Columbia. So Nayla decided to go off grid -- stopped going to class, skipped finals, changed phone number and bank account, and got a new apartment -- all without telling her mother. Mom went to the police, hired a private detective, and contacted the media. When found, Nayla said she wasn't going back to college and instead was going to make and produce music and work on her writing.

    Nayla wrote an op-ed piece about the ordeal.

    http://nypost.com/2016/05/29/why-i-had-to-escape-my-ivy-league-life-and-disappear/
    , @Pericles
    Well, one obvious path forward for the girl is getting married and having many sprogs. Let's see ... Good genetic heritage, MIT admitted but not a lot of student debt, not shopworn after a decade on campus. Might actually be a pretty good deal for someone traditional, if they hit it off.
    , @Pat Boyle
    My college career was different. No one in my family expected me to go to college. My uncle used to make fun of me. But I liked college.

    One reason I liked it was probably because I was so much smarter than all the rest. This wasn't just my inflated self opinion. I was the best math student in school. The best chemistry student and the best history student. I was also the best economics student and the best English student. I was also the captain of the debate team. I was the co-editor of the school paper and the vice President of the Student assembly. I was on the varsity basketball team. I supported myself as a tutor in math and chemistry. I played bridge for money (I was school champ)

    The college was George Mason (not MIT or Caltech). Except for foreign languages I was the best student in school. I had not just joined extracurricular activities - I began many of them. There were others - but I don't want to appear immodest.

    The point is my first couple years in college were very pleasant. Can you guess my secret?

    It isn't all just brains although I'm smart enough. I'm not, for example, as smart as Steve or Gregory Cochran or several others you run into on the Web (some in this thread). I went to grad school on a full academic scholarship and won several competitive academic fellowships. I really enjoyed school but in retrospect I realize I was never hard pressed very hard in either the classroom or on the campus.

    I'm sure that if I had come from a more competitive family and circle of friends I might have gotten further in the business world - but maybe not. Is it really important to suffer in your youth? Looking back those years all strike me as 'Golden Years' (like the duet about the University of Heidelberg in "The Student Prince").
  18. @pyrrhus
    How to get your child into Harvard, or any Ivy League school? Give them millions....

    not millions: multi-millions…chips are up.

  19. 6% this, 6 % that. THAT leaves 84% something else. Jesus, Steve, could you connect the dots, please?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Jim, they accepted just 6% of all males who applied and just 16% of all the females who applied. Those two numbers combined gave them a full freshman class. You can just write #BlackLivesMatter 100 times on your application and you will be accepted.
  20. @PiltdownMan
    While applying to colleges a couple of years ago, my first-born pointed out that the overall acceptance rate at Pomona College is similar to that at Caltech—to within a decimal place. I'll post links if I can find them again after all this time.

    Caltech is ranked #1 in the world by the UK Times Educational Supplement, for what these things are worth, though the TES is a very prestigious news publication in the field of education.

    On the other hand, I've heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

    I wonder what the truth is?

    On the other hand, I’ve heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

    I work with quite a few people with masters and doctorate engineering degrees from top tier schools – Caltech, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA / UCSD / UC Davis, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc. Note that I have an engineering degree from a solidly respected but not worshipped state school, but am one of the top technical people in my field – aerospace engineering – at my company. All of the above are very good schools and I can’t see any significant difference between any of them in the fields of aerospace and mechanical engineering, with two exceptions: the people from Cal Poly SLO and Purdue come out of college with a better background in design and analysis aimed at, you know, actually building stuff that works instead of doing research.

    But in the end, the person’s capabilities are much more important than the specific school, as long as the school meets reasonable standards that pretty much every decent state school in engineering can meet. Smart and resourceful people will pick up the skills needed to do the jobs they are asked to do.

    • Replies: @bomag

    But in the end, the person’s capabilities are much more important than the specific school, as long as the school meets reasonable standards that pretty much every decent state school in engineering can meet. Smart and resourceful people will pick up the skills needed to do the jobs they are asked to do.
     
    Well said.

    It is often noted here that NFL draftees are closely examined, but their rank ordering later in the league is often much different.
    , @Seth Largo
    In my opinion as an academic, most undergraduates will receive a better education at a well-respected regional college (Cal Poly SLO, Gonzaga, Emory, Creighton, Cooper Union, etc.) than at a major research university. This is true for both STEM and humanities.

    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything, there's no reason to choose a university with giant lecture halls and zero face-time with professors, unless at 18 you already know exactly whose lab you want to work in.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    Do you have any opinion of a school named Embry Riddle in AZ? Aeronautics and Aerospace are their specialty.
  21. @black sea
    I onced worked with a woman whose daughter had enrolled in MIT. Dad was a physics professor and mom was no slouch herself, so MIT seemed like a sound choice. A few years into her program, however, the girl had a nervous collapse over the workload, dropped out, moved back into her parents' house, and started waiting tables.

    OK, the parents thought, she needs some time to decompress, kick back, and get her thoughts in order. But the waitressing phase seemed to drag on indefinitely. The parents realized that MIT had been an overreach, but assumed that she would transer to another school. The daughter, however, wasn't having it. She wasn't interested at that point in studying anything anywhere in any school that called itself a university or institute of . . . . whatever.

    Don't know how it all worked out.

    I know about a half dozen people who flunked or dropped out of MIT and went on to highly successful tech careers. My brother – admittedly pretty smart – graduated from MIT in the mid 1970s and always claimed that it was actually much easier to get through the school than it looked on paper. For example, the 25 out of 100 points on the organic final actually translated into a B+/A-. I suspect that there are two kinds of students that MIT drives into nervous breakdowns: (1) the affirmative action admissions that just can’t handle the program; and (2) the super grinds who cannot accept that they are in an environment where they are not always going to be even in the top 50% let alone the top 10%.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    A friend's son is going through that right now. Valedictorian at a very good public high school, 800 math SAT...as a high school sophomore. He's now at the end of his freshman year at MIT and is working his ass off to stay above water. My friend is worried about his son's ability to deal with struggling academically, something he never dealt with before.
    , @Rex Little

    My brother – admittedly pretty smart – graduated from MIT in the mid 1970s and always claimed that it was actually much easier to get through the school than it looked on paper.
     
    Your brother was dead right. I graduated MIT in 1970, and I didn't know a single person in my freshman class who flunked or dropped out without graduating. I had a GPA of 4.5 (MIT used a 5 point scale) even though I did as little work as I could get away with and am not some Hawking-level genius.
  22. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Even better, have an extremely tall girl.

    A (non-minority) girl at my son’s high school got admitted to both Caltech and MIT this year (she’s planning on studying environmental engineering). While a top student – she has a near-4.0 unweighted and double digit number of AP courses – I’m pretty sure the fact that she is 6-2″ and plays club volleyball had a lot to do with her acceptances. (The non-minority boy we sent to MIT last year was more the stereotype you associate with MIT – recognized as extremely bright/”genius” since grade school, loved programming since middle school, repeat category winner in consecutive years at the International Intel science fair, and ended up leaving high school after 11th grade. In contrast, this girl is just a very good student – the type of student that the ivy leagues and elite colleges will tell you they can fill their classes with several times over.) She signed with MIT a couple of weeks ago. Division III schools don’t give you money for sports, you just have an easier time getting admitted.

    Interestingly enough, I have a second friend with a 6’+ daughter who plays on an even better nationally-ranked club volleyball team. She was recruited by Harvard, Cornell, and Penn but they don’t give money for sports and her parents were looking for $$$. She was offered full rides from a few schools, including William and Mary and Boston College. The private, highly nationally-ranked college she chose is giving her tuition, room/meals, books, tutors, and a couple grand per year in pocket money. She is planning to study something like biochemistry.

    Caltech seems to be trying to beef up its sports teams of late. Another (very smart, non-minority) boy from our high school was recruited last year to play basketball at Caltech (University of Chicago was also trying to woo him). He ended up going to a local private college that gave him a lot of money.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I was wrong - MIT actually signed *two* girls from our high school for volleyball.
  23. @black sea
    I onced worked with a woman whose daughter had enrolled in MIT. Dad was a physics professor and mom was no slouch herself, so MIT seemed like a sound choice. A few years into her program, however, the girl had a nervous collapse over the workload, dropped out, moved back into her parents' house, and started waiting tables.

    OK, the parents thought, she needs some time to decompress, kick back, and get her thoughts in order. But the waitressing phase seemed to drag on indefinitely. The parents realized that MIT had been an overreach, but assumed that she would transer to another school. The daughter, however, wasn't having it. She wasn't interested at that point in studying anything anywhere in any school that called itself a university or institute of . . . . whatever.

    Don't know how it all worked out.

    Sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree. My father was a physics prof, my mother a biology major, my grandfathers and uncles all engineers…and I couldn’t care less about about physics or engineering. My father is also a stereotypical unathletic nerd, whereas I was participated in lots of contact sports. I did end up going to university, and did well there, but majored in liberal arts and wound up working in a field totally unrelated to anything my family worked in.

  24. @anony-mouse
    Both Caltech and MIT have humanities and social science departments.

    I don’t know what the #’s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT’s defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants – they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT – the final GPA’s are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven’t they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What’s interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there’s quite a disparity between departments – somewhere I’ll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Here's the table:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N47/women/tables.pdf

    This was from 2008 but I don't think things have changed much.

    The top 3 male dominated majors (or as MIT calls them, "courses") with more that 50 majors in each are aeronautics, electrical eng. /comp. sci and physics (these are up to 70% male even though the class is 55% male).

    The top 3 female dominated majors are brain science, bio, civil and ENVIRONMENTAL eng. - these are up to 75% female.
    , @Truth

    Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.
     
    Women perfer to work with living things, men with objects. Always has been that way.
    , @snorlax

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven’t they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?
     
    It's the Bitcoin model; as the university becomes harder to get into, its degrees become progressively more valuable to its existing alums.
    , @keuril

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT
     
    It looks like those data are from a long time ago, presumably before MIT instituted aggressive affirmative action for females: "This research was completed before the implementation of changes in the Scholastic Aptitude Text (SAT) format in the 1994-1995 school year." This creates a bit of a composition problem—the female cohort attending MIT a quarter-century ago may have been more math- and physics-focused (on average) than today's cohort.

    Also, the main purpose of this study was simply to show that differences on the SAT I Math subtest are not predictive of performance in STEM. The fact that it is based on the ancient pre-recentered SAT means that the Math subtest was not nearly as compressed at the high end as today.

    Nowadays probably close to half of MIT/CalTech students score a perfect 800 on the Math test, so it doesn't really say anything and is not a basis for admission. But back then, even a 730 was probably harder than today's 800, so there were appreciable differences between male and female scores. Because so many applicants of both sexes will have perfect or near-perfect test scores now, there is not going to be a huge difference there. I suspect the main difference—the reason it is so much harder to get in as a male—is that males will need to have more impressive extracurriculars (e.g., state, national, or international math and science awards) to stand out from other male applicants. For females, it may suffice to mainly have good grades and scores, with more "standard strong" extracurriculars (e.g., mainly school awards, or city or regional awards and activities).
    , @Opinionator
    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT – the final GPA’s are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate

    Do these outcomes control for major and course of study?

    , @candid_observer
    The numbers of women at MIT who go into biology, or other, relatively non-mathematical disciplines is quite high compared to the men. That always seems to be the deciding factor. One might say that it means women are more interested in social things, and biology may seem more social, but I don't particularly see how doing experiments with, say, RNA is more people oriented than full time software development, or doing electrical engineering, physics, or math. I do see how RNA experimentation is typically going to require much less use of essentially mathematical/logical techniques.

    I happened recently to watch a few online lectures from MIT in relatively introductory courses in Calculus. I was frankly struck by how, well, dumb many of the questions were. I'd say that the good majority of these questions were from women and minorities -- often, indeed, minority women. If these "marginalized" individuals were supposedly intimidated by "stereotype threat" or some other thing from asking questions, it certainly didn't show in the lectures I watched. The densest questions were asked with no sense of embarrassment -- in fact, as it seemed to me, with some real entitlement -- and with the professor routinely rewarding the question with a response like "That's a very good question!..."

    The irony of the decision at MIT to bring in half their students from either the pool of women or of minorities is that it deepens the divide between the Affirmative Action students and white or Asian males, and in both directions. The women and minorities are of course less qualified than they would be if they weren't accepted due to Affirmative Action. But the white and Asian males are at the same time only more qualified on average than they had been before: only the top half of them are accepted, as compared to previous years.

    I expect that this would make the gap in mathematical/logical abilities to be pretty striking to all.

  25. Probably OT,but it seems Aaron Hernandez, well,he was gay.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I doubt he thought of himself as "gay" - rather, he probably had a "girlfriend" in jail who just happened to be male, actual XX type females not being available. I'm blanking on the cute name for it, but this phenomenon used to have a name at Seven Sister's colleges, something like "lesbian while undergraduate". Afghan warlords who keep bachi bazi boys don't think of themselves as gay either.
  26. @Jack D
    I don't know what the #'s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT's defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants - they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT - the final GPA's are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven't they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What's interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there's quite a disparity between departments - somewhere I'll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    Here’s the table:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N47/women/tables.pdf

    This was from 2008 but I don’t think things have changed much.

    The top 3 male dominated majors (or as MIT calls them, “courses”) with more that 50 majors in each are aeronautics, electrical eng. /comp. sci and physics (these are up to 70% male even though the class is 55% male).

    The top 3 female dominated majors are brain science, bio, civil and ENVIRONMENTAL eng. – these are up to 75% female.

    • Replies: @res
    Here's a look at the number of women per year and major at MIT. Data back to 1998-99.
    http://web.mit.edu/registrar/stats/gender/

    Your table is a better look at the sex balance, but I think the above link complements it with more detail for the women.
  27. @BB753
    If you want your daughters to marry nice guys and have healthy kids, don't send them to college at all. Female college graduates seldom reproduce.

    Yes I remember reading that stat some years back that, a college education will kill a woman’s reproductive chances. Kiss of death so to speak.

    I can understand why, the woman buys into the meaningful corporate career crap put out by feminist and corporate PR firms, likes the money she’s bringing in and then she puts off being a mommy until it’s too late or worse, ends up a old maid who didn’t get picked by her sell by date.

    And if they do have kids. it’s generally one. End of bloodline for both parents.

    Slightly OT: I just wonder if this is the mechanism so to speak that is responsible for the cold death of whites and Western Civ.

    • Replies: @Bleuteaux
    I dunno. I know an awful lot of women who went looking for their "Mrs" degree and never even pretended to look for a job after graduation. But, maybe things are different in the Midwest.
    , @BB753
    "I just wonder if this is the mechanism so to speak that is responsible for the cold death of whites and Western Civ."

    The pill and college women pursuing "careers" instead of raising children are both important factors in our decay. Demography is destiny.
    , @The Practical Conservative
    College-educated women are increasingly the ones having children, plural.

    There are real obstacles to family formation, and one of them is making up stuff about how getting a BA or BS means no babies for a young woman.
  28. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    No, I’d rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    Post graduation, have her apply for a job at UPS.

  29. @Jack D
    I don't know what the #'s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT's defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants - they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT - the final GPA's are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven't they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What's interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there's quite a disparity between departments - somewhere I'll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    Women perfer to work with living things, men with objects. Always has been that way.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Not this woman. The thing I hated, totally hated about working was being around other people. It wasn't just lecherous men and vicious affirmative action black women either. My ideal job would be making something beautiful at home all alone.
  30. Lol. Great anecdote. Classic Sailer.

  31. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Totally farking insane for a society to fill its STEM niches with women.

    It’s another NWO attack.

    Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman.

    Women (as a group) will never be responsible for advancing any STEM field. The New World Order is promoting women as a group to supplant the men and retard the rate of advancement. Duh.

    I realize it’s difficult for all of you younger Americans to grok but the NWO hates your guts and wants to literally crash your civilization.

    Getting your daughter into MIT gets the George Soros seal of approval. Don’t do it.

    • Replies: @oddsbodkins
    "Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman."

    Than any woman? Bull. If that were true, then in a typical class the best women would be less promising than the worst guy. I've been taking or teaching university level physics for 21 years, and this is simply not the case.

    A small but real percentage of those with Caltech & MIT level STEM talent are women. Probably about 10% of the total in physics. Less in math, more in biology. Certainly efforts to push that number toward parity through differential admissions standards are misguided and have many unfortunate consequences. Why not just admit them based on sex-blind criteria and leave them alone?

    "Women (as a group) will never be responsible for advancing any STEM field."

    You really should spend more time in a molecular biology lab.

    Sometimes reading the comments of this blog is painful.
  32. @black sea
    I onced worked with a woman whose daughter had enrolled in MIT. Dad was a physics professor and mom was no slouch herself, so MIT seemed like a sound choice. A few years into her program, however, the girl had a nervous collapse over the workload, dropped out, moved back into her parents' house, and started waiting tables.

    OK, the parents thought, she needs some time to decompress, kick back, and get her thoughts in order. But the waitressing phase seemed to drag on indefinitely. The parents realized that MIT had been an overreach, but assumed that she would transer to another school. The daughter, however, wasn't having it. She wasn't interested at that point in studying anything anywhere in any school that called itself a university or institute of . . . . whatever.

    Don't know how it all worked out.

    The school crushed her emotionally, made her hate higher ed. Some people aren’t meant for higher ed and life as a grinder in some cube farm. Really that’s all it’s good for. You really have to have a bad case of OCD to handle it without going bonkers.

    Even if they make it through school, they can still burn out from insane schedules that wreck their physical and mental health.

    Some end up as truck drivers or gardeners. I knew two men who had graduate degrees in CS from Carnegie Mellon who walked away from cherry jobs at Northrop. One became a salesman and another just went into the tall grass. The point was they experienced what a grind most tech work is and after spending almost two years getting their graduate degree just couldn’t take it anymore.

    Humans aren’t machines.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Hehe. I was just going to comment thay Carnegie Mellon should be added to the list with MIT and CalTech.

    I can vouch for the grind of the sector; since I am not myself an engineer I am somewhat insulated from it, but it is ubiquitous. The only people I know who genuinely thrive in it are machines: autistic, single-minded types who will spend weekends and nights working on projects for the company even when the boss is sincerely riding their asses to take it easy and stop working so much (because he doesn't want them to burn out or damage their health – yes, there are still moral and wise leaders here and there...). I know guys who wear braces and get regular treatment by physical therapists and joke that they are "against exercise;" they spend eighty hours a week coding despite it's negative effects on their health.

    It's weird. I wonder if in future times neurologists will identify some biochemical aspect of such people which reveals they are essentially functioning the same way that, say, a self-destructive drug addict does....
  33. @Anon
    Speaking of sneaky affirmative action, I applied as a transfer student to UCLA and UC Berkeley, and I checked off the hispanic box (I'm 1/8 mexican). I'll let you know how things turn out since I hear back this week. Wish me luck! :-)

    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it’s easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).

    • Replies: @biz
    Yes, this is basically an open secret of UC admissions. Anyone who goes to community college for two years and meets some standards (I think GPA is one of them) is virtually guaranteed a transfer spot.

    On the negative side, you spend the first two years of college at a community college.
    , @penskefile

    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it’s easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).
     
    The same is true for the University of Texas, which famously has a "top 7% rule" for freshman admissions in order to produce more diversity. What happens of course, is that many of those diverse freshman flunk out by the time their sophomore year comes to close. This opens up slots for transfer students.

    The downside to this is that it is virtually impossible as a transfer student to enter the business or engineering schools. Those schools have their own rigorous freshman requirements and the students don't drop out at the same rate. The diverse students didn't enter those colleges, they came in as Liberal Arts or Education majors (or even University Studies, aka Undecided)

    So, if you transfer in, you will have to major in something other than business or engineering. Nice little racket that UT-Austin has set up.
    , @fish

    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it’s easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).
     
    Also the first two years weeds out a fair number of people who would have been better off at Cal State East Bay leaving air pockets for junior and senior slots. My former boss did it this way....nobody ever asked if he spent all four years at Cal.
  34. @Anon
    Women-in-engineering is a big thing for colleges. Most (girls, not colleges) don't like it, which is why there are so few applicants. I came through a more minor engineering school, but there was definitely an initiative to get as many girls into the program as possible.

    Women-in-engineering is a big thing for colleges. Most (girls, not colleges) don’t like it, which is why there are so few applicants.

    Because the real genius and inclination of normal women is children engineering. Giving birth to them and raising them while husband is out in the brutal workaday world making a living to keep this ship afloat. Women are also superior household engineers as in domestic duties, buying food and cooking, clothing the children, taking care of their sniffles and colds etc etc

  35. When I was in college (I graduated in 1972) I dated 25% of the women in the College of Engineering, and 100% of the coeds in Industrial Engineering. The sad think is that it took only one date to accomplish this romantic feat.

  36. Hi Steve: Here is another topic to blog about. Cheers….

    https://qz.com/940977/no-one-is-prepared-to-stop-the-robot-onslaught-so-what-will-we-do-when-it-arrives/

    How, if you wear a white collar, male or female, watch your back.
    And how all that’s just for starters. Advances in supercomputers and the understanding of neural networks are combining to create a revolution in robotics, and companies eager for more profitability and cheaper production are ruthlessly grabbing the new technology to automate rote jobs.
    Blue-collar workers—forget about it. The robots will kill off the positions of half a million oil-rig hands, up to half the industry’s workforce around the world, along with hundreds of thousands of warehouse employees, Amazon-ized by automated forklifts and other machines. Then there are the drivers—the navigators of taxis and long-haul trucks, who make up some 17% of the adult US work force, adding up to about 7 million people, to be replaced by robot cars if competition from Uber’s roster of of 1.5 million drivers doesn’t put them out of business first. Fast-food workers—the hard-working teens, first-generation immigrants, and return-to-work moms who are the bedrock of burger joints everywhere—are also on the firing line as ordering kiosks begin to take the place of human cashiers.

    • Replies: @bomag

    Here is another topic to blog about
     
    Plenty of internet ink is being spilled elsewhere on this topic (robot revolution and the loss of jobs.)

    A lot of jobs today are fakey and make-work. We'll just have more of them in the robot future.
  37. Off-topic,

    Rachel Dolezal, symbol of White Supremacy:

    Perhaps it really was that simple. I couldn’t escape Rachel Dolezal because I can’t escape white supremacy. And it is white supremacy that told an unhappy and outcast white woman that black identity was hers for the taking. It is white supremacy that told her that any black people who questioned her were obviously uneducated and unmotivated to rise to her level of wokeness. It is white supremacy that then elevated this display of privilege into the dominating conversation on black female identity in America. It is white supremacy that decided that it was worth a book deal, national news coverage, and yes—even this interview.

    http://www.thestranger.com/features/2017/04/19/25082450/the-heart-of-whiteness-ijeoma-oluo-interviews-rachel-dolezal-the-white-woman-who-identifies-as-black

  38. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Funny how Asian women are not recognized as STEM field geniuses in Asia. The teeming billions of Asian females are being held back, right?

    If only Chinese men and Japanese men would realize the key to beating Western Civilization was to tap into the intellectual goldmine that is the Asian female. Then the East would finally leapfrog the West and this long epoch of humiliation.

    But instead — in the American “meritocracy” — Asian women are grabbing serious market share in these niches. So it’s America Uber Alles ad infinitum!!! We’ll ride the towering intellects of these Asian bitches to victory in WW3, WW4, WW5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10…

  39. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    There are actually lots of white jocks at Ivies, though probably not too many hunters.

  40. @biz
    Significantly fewer females than males are applying to Caltech and MIT. These might be extraordinary female students.

    Doesn't Caltech famously not practice affirmative action preferences?

    Sure it does, at least for women, and for a long time: easier admission standards for women dates back to 1990.

    • Replies: @res
    Greg, do you have data for Caltech? There was a controversy about this in their school newspaper in 2010. This link gives an excerpt: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/10473002/#Comment_10473002
    Their link to the original article is broken, but the full issue of the newspaper (this was a front page story) is available at http://caltechcampuspubs.library.caltech.edu/1927/1/2010_05_03_113_22.pdf
    The administration claimed they were not engaging in affirmative action and it was just increased recruitment. Color me skeptical.

    At MIT the big change was in the 1980s. From about 23% of undergrads to about 34%. See Chart 1 in http://web.mit.edu/ir/reports/MIT_Gender_Report_5-15-03.pdf
    Another uptick in the late 1990s from about 35-40%. Currently about 44% I think.
  41. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Yes, our daughter was admitted to Caltech, but did not go there. Instead, she followed my advice to take Linear Algebra course and then to do whatever she wanted to do with her life. So in 9 years from the moment of non-going to Caltech, she got Ph.D. in placenta research from University of California, campus San Francisco. My wife and I, we wish her to be happy with whatever she likes.

    What are your grandchild prospects?

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thank you for asking. I have two grandsons, 10 and 8, by my older son (from my previous marriage.) My wife and I also got granddaughter, (1+1/2) y.o, by our older (of two) children --- by our son and his wife. Our daughter is not married and has no kids. Sure, it is a big concern for me and my wife.
  42. This just in … women don’t like nerds. They HATE HATE HATE them. Even or especially Asian girls. They’ll just tolerate them better while thinking of the money and bad boys behind the nerd’s back.

    Caltech and MIT are still filled with nerds. If they want women, they’ll have to ditch the math and science and get plenty of afleets, plus bad boy nascent drug dealers, various random rich dudes who are ah0les, and and various charisma enhanced dudes. You know, men women actually want. As opposed to nerds, who are about as attractive as a baseball statistics convention to most women.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    They’ll just tolerate them better while thinking of the money and bad boys behind the nerd’s back.

    But in today's economy, the nerds are the ones who have the money.
    , @Truth
    I say recruit Charlie-Z!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK22F4DGAL8
  43. The Caltech workload has been softening in recent years. I recall hearing that they changed the second year of the core curriculum so that biologists no longer have to take quantum mechanics.

    Many women at Caltech dupe men into doing their homework for them. In the better cases, they are actually couples, but in many cases the guys are committing borderline honor code violations for…well…not enough in return.

    However, the majority of the students are hardworking and brilliant. I don’t think there’s much difference academically between most Techers and science/engineering students at other elite schools, but the relative tolerance at Caltech for eccentricity can make it a fun place to be.

  44. @black sea
    I onced worked with a woman whose daughter had enrolled in MIT. Dad was a physics professor and mom was no slouch herself, so MIT seemed like a sound choice. A few years into her program, however, the girl had a nervous collapse over the workload, dropped out, moved back into her parents' house, and started waiting tables.

    OK, the parents thought, she needs some time to decompress, kick back, and get her thoughts in order. But the waitressing phase seemed to drag on indefinitely. The parents realized that MIT had been an overreach, but assumed that she would transer to another school. The daughter, however, wasn't having it. She wasn't interested at that point in studying anything anywhere in any school that called itself a university or institute of . . . . whatever.

    Don't know how it all worked out.

    Something similar happened in the news last year. Mom has a PhD from MIT in toxicology. Her daughter, Nayla, was a star in high school but getting Bs and Cs as an engineering major at Columbia. So Nayla decided to go off grid — stopped going to class, skipped finals, changed phone number and bank account, and got a new apartment — all without telling her mother. Mom went to the police, hired a private detective, and contacted the media. When found, Nayla said she wasn’t going back to college and instead was going to make and produce music and work on her writing.

    Nayla wrote an op-ed piece about the ordeal.

    http://nypost.com/2016/05/29/why-i-had-to-escape-my-ivy-league-life-and-disappear/

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    And Columbia's engineering program is second tier, which is surprising for an Ivy. You literally need a higher math SAT score to get into the regular (i.e. highly regarded) undergrad program than to get into the undergrad engineering school. So this girl was basically mediocre at a mediocre school.

    Also, that mother-daughter relationship has WAY more interesting/dramatic problems than their STEM disagreements. The final tally for their therapy bills are going to be ginormous.

  45. @Jack D
    I don't know what the #'s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT's defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants - they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT - the final GPA's are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven't they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What's interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there's quite a disparity between departments - somewhere I'll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven’t they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    It’s the Bitcoin model; as the university becomes harder to get into, its degrees become progressively more valuable to its existing alums.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Which, I'd add, is a different incentive structure from a hot club (you aren't really any cooler if you've previously gotten into Berghain, but it is cool to be a regular at Berghain). Also, top-tier universities at MIT's level make a lot more from donations than tuition (which can be a loss-leader when all financial aid is accounted for), so the "business" is making their graduates rich, not making more of them.
    , @snorlax
    These exclusivity effects are also part of the reason affirmative action is hard to get rid of. Never did I see so much anti-AA sentiment amongst my peers as when my HS class was applying to college, only for these erstwhile Jesse Helmses to become loud-n-proud SJWs the second they matriculated (judging by Facebook feeds). Some of that was propaganda, a lot was "I got mine."
  46. These days college admissions is pretty tough even for female engineers. My daughter who was in the top 8% of her high school class (a top flight private school) and had close to a 1500 SAT score was rejected from almost all the engineering schools she applied to (nearly 15) including both her parents’ alma maters. We were pretty depressed until she got accepted to the only UC school that has a mollusk as a mascot (which she is pretty happy about). Much different than when I went to college with a similar credentials 4o years ago. Although I didn’t apply to top Ivy league ( Harvard, Stanford, Princeton or Yale) I did get accepted into the other Ivies and other top private schools. No way that would happen now.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    These days college admissions is pretty tough

    Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
    , @Formerly CARealist
    My son also got rejected by the top schools he applied to, despite being valedictorian, high SAT, several AP exams, unique extracurriculars, community service, a job in the major he was applying for, and plenty of awards.

    But like all the other high-achieving, top-school rejects, he'll do quite well in life and I won't have to pay the outrageous tuition.

    Let's face it: white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It's going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.
    , @Anonymous
    It could be she choose a super competitive branch of engineering. We just went through the college admissions process this year, too. All California public schools had record applications - Cal State Long Beach had over 91,000, UCI over 104,000 - second only to UCLA at 119,000. My son, applying for engineering, ended up getting into a top five UC and waitlisted at the other three second tier ones (we were pleasantly surprised since we knew admissions in CA is extremely tough and had a number out of state safeties lined up. I had heard stories from other parents of students with 4.6 GPAs being rejected from UCSB but admitted into Purdue for engineering so we knew it was going to be a crapshoot.) My niece, who was applying from out of state for mechanical engineering with a significantly lower ACT score and fewer APs than her cousin, got into the same UC as my son. Based on her other admittances to very good programs around the country she was definitely given the ovary pass, though paying out of state tuition rates probably helped her, too. Waitlisting seemed to be the trend this year, for both public and private schools.

    Computer science is *the* hot major, with schools like Cal Poly SLO accepting less than 10% to their program. Bioengineering/Biomedical engineering is also very hot. I am surprised how popular aerospace engineering remains since the industry is so cyclical and most of the big companies are such bastards to work for but I guess the allure of building planes, rockets, and spacecraft is hard to resist. My field, electrical engineering, is waning in popularity and is, surprisingly, one of the easier ones to get admitted into. It seems like everybody and their brother's kid is going into engineering or computer science these days. It'll be interesting to see how many kids will actually graduate with those degrees. It's difficult even for good students and this generation has been raised in an era of partial credit, do-overs, and helicopter parenting.

  47. @snorlax

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven’t they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?
     
    It's the Bitcoin model; as the university becomes harder to get into, its degrees become progressively more valuable to its existing alums.

    Which, I’d add, is a different incentive structure from a hot club (you aren’t really any cooler if you’ve previously gotten into Berghain, but it is cool to be a regular at Berghain). Also, top-tier universities at MIT’s level make a lot more from donations than tuition (which can be a loss-leader when all financial aid is accounted for), so the “business” is making their graduates rich, not making more of them.

  48. she broke down into tears

    Back in the day, I transferred to a similar (ie competitive, highly regarded) school for the winter quarter (they now have a semester schedule) — a couple of housing possibilities I looked at were being vacated by students who had developed ulcers — I thought that was weird.

    OT — Interesting graphic:

    https://twitter.com/polNewsNet/status/856237058746134528

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    It was a lot better for students in the U.S. when kids went to the local university and got to be big fishes in their small local pond (and then marry a local), as opposed to all striving to be in the top-10 schools and then being blown out of the water. Of course, the solution to that was to create a lot of bird courses like Feminazi studies so the students could sublimate their insecurity at being homesick and overwhelmed into grievance studies where they could blame all their problems on white males and get an easy A.

    European universities and Canadian universities long held to the go-local philosophy outside of Oxbridge-types. In fact, in Europe it was rare to even "move away" for college; you simply lived at home and commuted. When Americans studied abroad, they had to live in dorms (duh) and Europeans found it fascinating that they did so and then did the same thing at their home college.

    , @eah, @Stan Adams
    Have you ever played any of the old Infocom text adventure games? They had no graphics and were almost like interactive novels. Some of them were surprisingly intricate. By early-'80s standards, the Infocom parser was extremely sophisticated. (Half of the fun of these games was typing outrageous commands to see if the programmers had anticipated such zany input.)

    Adding to the games' depth were "feelies" - materials that Infocom included in the box to try to add to the authenticity of the game-playing experience.

    One of the last titles the company produced before being swallowed up and dismantled by Activision was the pseudo-Lovecraftian The Lurking Horror (1987). It was set at "G.U.E. Tech," a thinly-veiled stand-in for MIT.

    One of the feelies for TLH was a "G.U.E. Guide for Freshmen":
    http://gallery.guetech.org/lurking/lurking.html

    This quote from the guide is somewhat funny, if you have a morbid sense of humor:

    In spite of what your roommate will tell you, G.U.E. Tech does not have the highest suicide rate in the country. However, it *is* a high-pressure school. While you're wondering what happened to the distraught student who used to sit next to you in Introductory Calculus, you might also be wondering how you're going to get through midterms without cracking up.
     
    To give you an idea of how these games worked, here's a transcript from Deadline (1982), in which the player assumes the role of a detective investigating a businessman's apparent suicide:

    >w
    End of Hallway
    This is the west end of the upstairs hall. To the north is the library, where Mr. Robner was found. Its solid oak door has been knocked down and is lying just inside the entrance to the library. A window which cannot be opened is at the end of the hallway.

    >open window
    You must be very clever to do that to the window.

    >smash window
    What do you want to smash the window with?

    >inventory
    You are empty-handed.

    >n
    Library
    This is the library where Mr. Robner's body was found. It is decorated in a simple but comfortable style. Mr. Robner obviously spent a great deal of time here. A wide executive desk sits before tall balcony windows which lie at the north of the room. A telephone is sitting on the desk. The east side of the room is composed of three large bookshelf units containing numerous volumes on many topics. The floor is carpeted from wall to wall. The massive oak door which blocked the entrance has been forcibly knocked off its hinges and is lying by the doorway.
    A pencil is lying on the floor near the desk.
    Beside the desk is a large collapsible tray.
    Sitting on the tray is a bowl containing a white powdery substance.
    Alongside the desk is a wicker wastepaper basket.
    The wastepaper basket contains:
    * A bunch of crumpled papers
    Lying on the floor, overturned, is a beautiful saucer.
    Turned onto its side, lying on the floor, is a beautiful teacup.
    Lying atop the desk is a pad of white note paper.
    A desk calendar is here, open to July 7.
    There is a bottle of Ebullion here.

    >pick up pencil and pad
    pencil: Taken.
    note pad: Taken.

    >rub pencil on pad
    Shading the paper with the pencil reveals impressions left by writing on the previous sheet. The writer must borne [sic] down heavily, but only a few words come out clearly:

    Baxter,

    st time
    nsist / op / merg
    mnidy / Oth
    forc
    ocumen / y / poss
    plica / y / Focus s
    recons
    late!
    - rsha

    >open balcony door
    The balcony door is now open.

    >n
    Library Balcony
    The balcony is bare of furniture, though it has a beautiful view of the rose garden, the north lawn and the lake. A metal railing around the balcony prevents an accidental drop to the thorny roses below. The window between the balcony and the library is open.
    Away to the north, Mr. McNabb can be seen picking weeds.

    >look at railing
    The railing is made of a sturdy metal and helps prevent nasty falls. There is a small area of paint scraped off the outside edge.

    >look at window
    The balcony door is open, but you can't tell what's beyond it.

    >jump
    For a brief moment, you feel the exhilaration of free fall. A thought hits you: the ground is moving toward me. It is your last thought.

    [DOS prompt]
     
  49. @snorlax

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven’t they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?
     
    It's the Bitcoin model; as the university becomes harder to get into, its degrees become progressively more valuable to its existing alums.

    These exclusivity effects are also part of the reason affirmative action is hard to get rid of. Never did I see so much anti-AA sentiment amongst my peers as when my HS class was applying to college, only for these erstwhile Jesse Helmses to become loud-n-proud SJWs the second they matriculated (judging by Facebook feeds). Some of that was propaganda, a lot was “I got mine.”

    • Agree: Clyde, L Woods
    • Replies: @Jack D
    There is an article in today's NYTimes about flying cars (watch the video, kind of cool - it looks like an oversized quadcopter drone that's big enough for a man to ride on- actually more of a flying motorcycle than a flying car. The video has no sound so you don't hear that they sound like a thousand angry bees).

    But anyway, there's a quote in the article which neatly sums up all SWPLs, if you substitute just about anything for "flying car":


    I love the idea of being able to go out into my backyard and hop into my flying car,” said Brad Templeton, a Silicon Valley entrepreneur who has served as a consultant on Google’s self-driving project. “I hate the idea of my next-door neighbor having one.”
     
    Having a flying car/ Ivy League degree, etc., etc. is only fun insofar as others don't.
  50. @Triumph104
    Something similar happened in the news last year. Mom has a PhD from MIT in toxicology. Her daughter, Nayla, was a star in high school but getting Bs and Cs as an engineering major at Columbia. So Nayla decided to go off grid -- stopped going to class, skipped finals, changed phone number and bank account, and got a new apartment -- all without telling her mother. Mom went to the police, hired a private detective, and contacted the media. When found, Nayla said she wasn't going back to college and instead was going to make and produce music and work on her writing.

    Nayla wrote an op-ed piece about the ordeal.

    http://nypost.com/2016/05/29/why-i-had-to-escape-my-ivy-league-life-and-disappear/

    And Columbia’s engineering program is second tier, which is surprising for an Ivy. You literally need a higher math SAT score to get into the regular (i.e. highly regarded) undergrad program than to get into the undergrad engineering school. So this girl was basically mediocre at a mediocre school.

    Also, that mother-daughter relationship has WAY more interesting/dramatic problems than their STEM disagreements. The final tally for their therapy bills are going to be ginormous.

  51. @eah
    she broke down into tears

    Back in the day, I transferred to a similar (ie competitive, highly regarded) school for the winter quarter (they now have a semester schedule) -- a couple of housing possibilities I looked at were being vacated by students who had developed ulcers -- I thought that was weird.

    OT -- Interesting graphic:

    https://twitter.com/polNewsNet/status/856237058746134528

    It was a lot better for students in the U.S. when kids went to the local university and got to be big fishes in their small local pond (and then marry a local), as opposed to all striving to be in the top-10 schools and then being blown out of the water. Of course, the solution to that was to create a lot of bird courses like Feminazi studies so the students could sublimate their insecurity at being homesick and overwhelmed into grievance studies where they could blame all their problems on white males and get an easy A.

    European universities and Canadian universities long held to the go-local philosophy outside of Oxbridge-types. In fact, in Europe it was rare to even “move away” for college; you simply lived at home and commuted. When Americans studied abroad, they had to live in dorms (duh) and Europeans found it fascinating that they did so and then did the same thing at their home college.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  52. Young American women whose parents have directed them into Caltech etc have a soft, sheltered life. They are trivial narcissists, obsessed with celebrity. No wonder they have breakdowns when they have to do a bit of work.

    Women in Iran, Russia, Romania etc are more likely to choose tech and engineering than woman in the West. Why? Has Iran finally defeated the patriarchy? No. It’s because it is deadly serious which profession they choose. They can’t coast through life. The same seriousness in not in evidence in the West. In the US, people (often from rich families) are spending tens of thousands to study trivial subjects. Americans are infantilised to such a degree that they unable to recognise their infantilisation.

    The same impetus is seen in all the tech people from India. Do you think they are all really interested in Richard Stallman? No, they just need to eat.

    • Agree: Triumph104
  53. Crazy world

    • Replies: @Yak-15
    In the future white men will be looked at as a mythical lost civilization like Atlantis. People really did all those things? Wow!!
  54. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Yes, our daughter was admitted to Caltech, but did not go there. Instead, she followed my advice to take Linear Algebra course and then to do whatever she wanted to do with her life. So in 9 years from the moment of non-going to Caltech, she got Ph.D. in placenta research from University of California, campus San Francisco. My wife and I, we wish her to be happy with whatever she likes.

    That’s a nice story.

    Why did you advise her to take linear algebra?

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thank you for asking.
    Actual formulation was given by me to her when she was in High School:
    "If I will die before you finish your education,
    you must take Linear Algebra course, and then do whatever you want with your life".
    She successfully took it, and now I feel free to die.
    I believe it helped her understand better the idea of superposition of electronic orbitals in quantum theory of molecular structure, when she was
    at Dept. of Chemistry and Chem. Biology of Cornell U. (undergrad. program.)
    Nowadays I am not so sure in the wisdom of that advice.
    May be Linear Algebra helped her to operate Atomic Force Microscope
    in the study of cell membrane of placenta as anti-viral barrier; may be not.
    , @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thank you for asking.
    Actual formulation was given by me to her when she was in High School:
    "If I will die before you finish your education,
    you must take Linear Algebra course, and then do whatever you want with your life".
    She successfully took it, and now I feel free to die.
    I believe it helped her understand better the idea of superposition of electronic orbitals in quantum theory of molecular structure, when she was
    at Dept. of Chemistry and Chem. Biology of Cornell U. (undergrad. program.)
    Nowadays I am not so sure in the wisdom of that advice.
    May be Linear Algebra helped her to operate Atomic Force Microscope
    in the study of cell membrane of placenta as anti-viral barrier; may be not.
  55. @eah
    she broke down into tears

    Back in the day, I transferred to a similar (ie competitive, highly regarded) school for the winter quarter (they now have a semester schedule) -- a couple of housing possibilities I looked at were being vacated by students who had developed ulcers -- I thought that was weird.

    OT -- Interesting graphic:

    https://twitter.com/polNewsNet/status/856237058746134528
  56. @Whiskey
    This just in ... women don't like nerds. They HATE HATE HATE them. Even or especially Asian girls. They'll just tolerate them better while thinking of the money and bad boys behind the nerd's back.

    Caltech and MIT are still filled with nerds. If they want women, they'll have to ditch the math and science and get plenty of afleets, plus bad boy nascent drug dealers, various random rich dudes who are ah0les, and and various charisma enhanced dudes. You know, men women actually want. As opposed to nerds, who are about as attractive as a baseball statistics convention to most women.

    They’ll just tolerate them better while thinking of the money and bad boys behind the nerd’s back.

    But in today’s economy, the nerds are the ones who have the money.

  57. @Larry, San Francisco
    These days college admissions is pretty tough even for female engineers. My daughter who was in the top 8% of her high school class (a top flight private school) and had close to a 1500 SAT score was rejected from almost all the engineering schools she applied to (nearly 15) including both her parents' alma maters. We were pretty depressed until she got accepted to the only UC school that has a mollusk as a mascot (which she is pretty happy about). Much different than when I went to college with a similar credentials 4o years ago. Although I didn't apply to top Ivy league ( Harvard, Stanford, Princeton or Yale) I did get accepted into the other Ivies and other top private schools. No way that would happen now.

    These days college admissions is pretty tough

    Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    • Replies: @biz

    These days college admissions is pretty tough
     
    Actually, that mis-states the problem.

    These days admission to good colleges is too competitive. A lot of great students who a generation ago would have been material for the Ivies, Chicago, Stanford, etc, or a tier below that for Georgetown, Northwestern, etc, and for the flagship state Us and top liberal arts colleges, are just not getting in to those places. In part it is just due to these places having approximately the same undergraduate class sizes now as in 1960 in the face of a population that has doubled and international enrollment that has quintupled.

    On the other hand, shitty colleges - the huge second tier and lower state Us, party-oriented private Us, the for profits, etc. - are admitting anyone with a pulse. These days admission to those places is too easy.

    So we really have a double problem with college admissions in this country. It is too competitive at the high end, hurting some really great students, and too easy at the low end, encouraging a vast sea of young people to waste 4-6 years of their life, and their family's and the government's money, partying and following sports.
  58. I have taught classes at Caltech. Yes, it is a stressful workload, and more so than MIT I believe. Definitely more than other competitors such as CMU. However, if your kid is up for it, it has an old world “this will make you tough” element that is not all bad, tears included. I assume quantitative majors at Stanford and Harvard have some still, too, of course, but not as much.

  59. Aren’t men just more confident (and overconfident) so they are more likely to apply to places that will reject them. As a man very sensitive to rejection I’d guess that kind of personality differences matter a lot on how large portion of each population gets selected. I’d guess men are more likely to risk probable disappointment for a chance of improbable success.

  60. @snorlax
    MIT and Wellesley College organize a special bus service between the two, colloquially known as the "fuck truck." The MIT boys presumably have something to recommend them, seeing as the Wellesley girls prefer a 45-minute bus ride, cold in the winter and hot in the summer, to the 10-minute drive to preppy business school Babson College.

    My anecdotal observation, and to the best of my knowledge all the available data agree, is that intelligence, attractiveness, athleticism, work ethic and eusocial behavior are all positively correlated with one another, if not hugely so.

    Babson has a lot of international students, especially rich Indians and Middle Eastern kids, it never struck me as being all that preppy. Babson grads do pretty well, but it still doesn’t have anywhere near the social cachet of MIT.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    It's become less so as it's taken an increasingly-larger percentage of international students, but its student body has historically been made up of old-money rich boys who didn't quite have the grades or ability to make the cut at Harvard, or Dartmouth, or Williams, or Tufts, or BU. (The internationals are of course even richer).
  61. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    I went to an Ivy, and two of my room-mates were decent white jocks from Ohio. Probably just the kind of kid you’re looking for. A lot of the football team actually fit that criteria. Problem is those boys had no interest in marrying the kind of woman who attends an Ivy League school. In fact both my room-mates ended up marrying their high school sweethearts after college.

  62. @jimbojones
    I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn't just that there is too much homework; it's also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian.

    “I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn’t just that there is too much homework; it’s also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian.”

    Or as I heard one girl explain it, “The odds were good, but the goods were odd.”

    • LOL: Buffalo Joe
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    I think there are far more East Asian origin kids than South Asian kids at Caltech. Just my impression from a couple of years ago.
  63. @cthulhu


    On the other hand, I’ve heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

     

    I work with quite a few people with masters and doctorate engineering degrees from top tier schools - Caltech, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA / UCSD / UC Davis, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc. Note that I have an engineering degree from a solidly respected but not worshipped state school, but am one of the top technical people in my field - aerospace engineering - at my company. All of the above are very good schools and I can't see any significant difference between any of them in the fields of aerospace and mechanical engineering, with two exceptions: the people from Cal Poly SLO and Purdue come out of college with a better background in design and analysis aimed at, you know, actually building stuff that works instead of doing research.

    But in the end, the person's capabilities are much more important than the specific school, as long as the school meets reasonable standards that pretty much every decent state school in engineering can meet. Smart and resourceful people will pick up the skills needed to do the jobs they are asked to do.

    But in the end, the person’s capabilities are much more important than the specific school, as long as the school meets reasonable standards that pretty much every decent state school in engineering can meet. Smart and resourceful people will pick up the skills needed to do the jobs they are asked to do.

    Well said.

    It is often noted here that NFL draftees are closely examined, but their rank ordering later in the league is often much different.

  64. @Luke Lea
    "I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn’t just that there is too much homework; it’s also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian."

    Or as I heard one girl explain it, "The odds were good, but the goods were odd."

    I think there are far more East Asian origin kids than South Asian kids at Caltech. Just my impression from a couple of years ago.

  65. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    You’re on the right track. Graduate white females tend not to breed.

  66. @PiltdownMan
    While applying to colleges a couple of years ago, my first-born pointed out that the overall acceptance rate at Pomona College is similar to that at Caltech—to within a decimal place. I'll post links if I can find them again after all this time.

    Caltech is ranked #1 in the world by the UK Times Educational Supplement, for what these things are worth, though the TES is a very prestigious news publication in the field of education.

    On the other hand, I've heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

    I wonder what the truth is?

    Unless your ambition is to die of overwork syndrome in your 30s or find yourself out of a job at 40, it probably doesn’t make sense to get a typical engineering degree. Whether it’s laying train tracks over the Sierras or laying out a circuit with a billion transistors, you will lose to the Chinese every time. Better to get a polysci or psychology degree from a prestigious liberal arts college and parlay that into a CEO job.

    • Replies: @Opinionator

    Unless your ambition is to die of overwork syndrome in your 30s or find yourself out of a job at 40, it probably doesn’t make sense to get a typical engineering degree.
     
    Do other iSteve readers agree with this?
  67. Caltech is otherworldly. I think that the vast majority of applicants are much aware whether they can muster up. Not good to recommend people to play games with the admission process. Sorrow ensues.

  68. I have not seen much about this BLM supporting black Muslim who murdered three white men in Fresno last week.

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-fresno-shooter-suspect-20170418-story.html

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I take no pleasure in my accurate prediction at the time that it would be essentially ignored because White Lives Don't Matter and Fresno is where poor whites and Badwhites live (largely the same group of people).
  69. @HBD Guy
    Hi Steve: Here is another topic to blog about. Cheers....

    https://qz.com/940977/no-one-is-prepared-to-stop-the-robot-onslaught-so-what-will-we-do-when-it-arrives/

    How, if you wear a white collar, male or female, watch your back.
    And how all that’s just for starters. Advances in supercomputers and the understanding of neural networks are combining to create a revolution in robotics, and companies eager for more profitability and cheaper production are ruthlessly grabbing the new technology to automate rote jobs.
    Blue-collar workers—forget about it. The robots will kill off the positions of half a million oil-rig hands, up to half the industry’s workforce around the world, along with hundreds of thousands of warehouse employees, Amazon-ized by automated forklifts and other machines. Then there are the drivers—the navigators of taxis and long-haul trucks, who make up some 17% of the adult US work force, adding up to about 7 million people, to be replaced by robot cars if competition from Uber’s roster of of 1.5 million drivers doesn’t put them out of business first. Fast-food workers—the hard-working teens, first-generation immigrants, and return-to-work moms who are the bedrock of burger joints everywhere—are also on the firing line as ordering kiosks begin to take the place of human cashiers.

    Here is another topic to blog about

    Plenty of internet ink is being spilled elsewhere on this topic (robot revolution and the loss of jobs.)

    A lot of jobs today are fakey and make-work. We’ll just have more of them in the robot future.

  70. @Jus' Sayin'...
    I know about a half dozen people who flunked or dropped out of MIT and went on to highly successful tech careers. My brother - admittedly pretty smart - graduated from MIT in the mid 1970s and always claimed that it was actually much easier to get through the school than it looked on paper. For example, the 25 out of 100 points on the organic final actually translated into a B+/A-. I suspect that there are two kinds of students that MIT drives into nervous breakdowns: (1) the affirmative action admissions that just can't handle the program; and (2) the super grinds who cannot accept that they are in an environment where they are not always going to be even in the top 50% let alone the top 10%.

    A friend’s son is going through that right now. Valedictorian at a very good public high school, 800 math SAT…as a high school sophomore. He’s now at the end of his freshman year at MIT and is working his ass off to stay above water. My friend is worried about his son’s ability to deal with struggling academically, something he never dealt with before.

  71. Mostly OT: Via commenter Robert Ford at Razib’s new place —

    DNA Tests, and Sometimes Surprising Results, by Anita Foeman, professor of communications studies, West Chester University. NYT, 4/20/17.

    Prof. Foeman has had hundreds of her students predict their racial pedigree, then take ancestry/com-23andMe type ancestry tests.

    As a member in good standing of the Academy, she’d be unable to compose a sentence that contains the words “race” and “evolution.” Yet unsurprisingly, her findings are best understood in an HBD-aware framework.

    Most amusing case study: Bernard

    Identifies as: Black; father is black and mother is white

    His prediction: 50% European, 50% African

    His comments before the test: “My mother said, ‘I know you are me, but no cop is going to take the time to find out your mother is white.’ She was very specific about raising me as a black man.

    Results: 91% European, 5% Middle Eastern, 2% Hispanic; less than 1% African and Asian

    Thoughts about his ancestry results: “What are you trying to do to me? You have caused a lot of problems in my family. I know my nose is sharp and my skin is light, but my politics are as black as night. Today, I don’t identify as mixed. I reject my white privilege in a racist America. There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black.”

    As far as I know, he is not the president of the local chapter of the NAACP.

    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    The fairer the color, the fiercer the brother.
    , @Autochthon

    There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black.
     
    And so ends his mother's entire line, as definitively as if she had never borne a child at all.

    The overhwelming majority (I'd guess ninety-nine per cent) of such people take this attitude, and it belies a similar point made a while ago by Mr. Derbyshire.

    Mr. Derbyshire pointed out that the nonsense claims from leftists that they are oppressed and afraid and so forth is disproved on its face because if they trult were so, the last thing in the world they would so is openly talk about the matter, defy the government via protests and marches, and so on. These people go on national television and drone on and on about how they genuinely fear for their very lives following Mr. Trump's election; they run full-page adverts and editorials im The New York Times. It's silly.

    Do you believe for one moment anyone in a genuinely repressive and dangerous place would do such things? In North Korea? Stalin's Russia? Heck, I bet it would be difficuly if not impossible to thus denounce and insult the ruling Saudi family in Arabia.

    If the Western governments, employers, and others in positions of power were truly dangerous and oppressive to blacks (and mestizos, Asians, Arabs, etc.) they would perforce not fall over themselves to move not just move to our countries, but into the whitest parts of our countries they possibly can. They certainly wouldn't carry on as they do. In an actually dangerous and oppressive state that had it in for black people, Al Sharpton and Jease Jackson would long since have been disappeared by governmental death squads. There certainly would not be a big statue of Martin King on the national mall. And so on.

    Ironically, the actual oppression and danger to both black people and these mulattos (and, Hell's bells, even white people) comes from black people! It is black people who publicly spout racist and hateful things against white people with impunity. It is white people the government proactively oppresses and discriminates against via so-called "affirmative action" and similar shemes. It is black people who would mock, taunt, and probably even assault Bernard and his ilk were they to openly claim their white ancestry as mulattos, much less if they were to claim to be only white the same way they currently claim to be only black.

    Whiny mulattos like the guy Bernard and Barry Obama would scramble to emphasize that their mothers are white and claim themselves to be white, as well, rather than black. Even if they decided the genetic dominance of dark skin over recessive white skin precluded this approach, they would at least emphasize that they are mulattos and not truly blacks.

    Note too that it damn near always the mother who is the "oppressor" race when miscegenation occurs, another complete inversion of reality: in actual cases of oppression and subjugation the ruling men take the women from those they overpower, as happened for example with the conquistadors in America. (I'll warrant the genetic profiles of mestizos indicate nearly all of their male ancestors are all Europeans and their female ancestors Indios....)

    Returning to Bernard's words: he has utter contempt for his mother's line and her people; she herself hates them, in a supreme display of miserable self-loathing, and has toiled to instill that contempt and hatred in her mulatto child.
    This phenomenon is why there can be no hippy-dippy world where all races are treated equally as a result of miscegenation, as some who advocate for it would have us believe. Invariably the mulatto, mestizo, and otherwise half-breed children reject, despise, and even proacrively seek to destroy their own white forebears. Happas seem
    to often be an exception presently, but mark my words: as Asians increasingly join the racket for cash and prizes by clamoring "I too am aggreived and oppressed and in danger!" (and they are doing so, having realises the game is very lucrative indeed...), the exception will decline, and they will also denounce their own white ancestors.

    For these reasons, nevermind the destruction of biodiversity, many of us oppose miscegenation; our rejection is completely rational and reasoned because of the demonstravly negative outcomes. Yet opponents of the position would have you believe we are all of us raving lunatics in the style of Hitler and Goebbels. I wish black people success and long life. I just don't want them destroying white people to achieve it.
    , @MaMu1977
    I didn't know that Mindy Kaling had another brother.

    Seriously speaking, this guy is either an inveterate liar or a damned fool. There are Slavic people at my place of business who possess more stereotypical "african" features (lips, nose, etc.), than Bernard. And then again, his acceptance of being "outed" as a racial polymorph may be a ploy to maintain multiple modes of access to the AA spigot in all of its forks (financial, social, sexual.) If he shows up at a neo-BLM rally with a non-black wife and even paler children, we'll have an answer.
    , @Triumph104
    Years ago a school principal named Wayne Joseph found out that he was not black. His DNA result was "57% indo European, 39% Native American, 4% east Asian, and 0%  black African."

    Someone should do a study on how people who identify as black can mate and reproduce for generations without picking up any African DNA.

    https://chancellorfiles.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/wayne-joseph-thought-he-was-black/

    I think that if Erica looks into her background, she will find that her mother is Latina. Either her maternal grandparents were "passing", grandma had relations with another man, or Erica's mother is adopted.

    Odds are that her African-American father is part white. Let's say Erica is 40% African and 10% European from her father -- she would be 8% African, 27% European, and 14% Native American, and 1% Other from her mother. Even if all of her African genes came from her father, she would be 35% European, 14% Native American, and 1% Other from her mother, which is impossible for German/English/Irish/Spanish ancestry.
  72. @Anon
    Women-in-engineering is a big thing for colleges. Most (girls, not colleges) don't like it, which is why there are so few applicants. I came through a more minor engineering school, but there was definitely an initiative to get as many girls into the program as possible.

    A thought – could a girl not apply for a STEM place at a top college, then half way through term 1 ask to change to the course she actually wants to do (and which she would not have been accepted for because competition)?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    It really depends on the university. In some universities (e.g. Penn), the engineering school is a separate school so you are admitted only to that school and need to get formal transfer approval (not easy) to switch to another school. In others, (e.g. MIT) everyone is admitted to the u. as an undeclared major and can choose any major they want later. But as I mentioned, there is a science core curriculum that everyone has to take so you have to take a lot of science/math courses anyway. In general, trying to "sneak" into MIT is like trying to sneak into the lion's cage at the zoo - if you are scheming for some kind of easy short cut to a prestigious degree it's a lousy plan.
    , @mukat
    This is an excellent strategy, and the reverse would work great for young men: say on your application that you're into Anthropology or Women's Studies (with the extracurriculars and essay to support this kind of thing), then just do Computer Science or Econ, forgetting about your application entirely. Once you're in, you're in.
    , @Triumph104
    In order to make its diversity quota, an elite university will admit an unprepared girl who shows a strong interest in STEM, knowing that she will eventually have to change her major.

    From The Only Woman in the Room: Why Science is Still a Boy's Club by Eileen Pollack:


    A friend of mine in the Yale admissions office told me that if an applicant of color wrote on her application that she wanted to study physics even though her transcript revealed a thin background in science and math, the college would accept her and assume the system would do its job and persuade her that she belonged in another field. My friend wishes the admissions office would be honest and say, "Look, we'll let you in, but if you want to major in physics, you'll need to do boot camp the summer before you come, or spend a remedial year catching up." But Yale is too conscious of its status to do any such thing. "We're Yale!" my friend mimics. "We don't have remedial anything."
     
    , @Autochthon
    Capital idea. We need to creatively identify and propogate more and ways to play the rigged game, the same way the children of Michael Jordan doubtless vie for affirmative action as underprivileged "minorities" and wealthy immigrants from India scam subsidies from the SBA because they are dusky.

    More ideas like these please!
  73. How to Get Your Daughter Into a World-Famous College

    “It is an indiscreet and troublesome ambition that cares so much about fame; about what the world says of us; to be always looking in the faces of others for approval; to be always anxious about the effect of what we hear or say; to be always shouting to hear the echoes of our own voices.”

    – Longfellow

  74. @Opinionator
    These days college admissions is pretty tough

    Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    These days college admissions is pretty tough

    Actually, that mis-states the problem.

    These days admission to good colleges is too competitive. A lot of great students who a generation ago would have been material for the Ivies, Chicago, Stanford, etc, or a tier below that for Georgetown, Northwestern, etc, and for the flagship state Us and top liberal arts colleges, are just not getting in to those places. In part it is just due to these places having approximately the same undergraduate class sizes now as in 1960 in the face of a population that has doubled and international enrollment that has quintupled.

    On the other hand, shitty colleges – the huge second tier and lower state Us, party-oriented private Us, the for profits, etc. – are admitting anyone with a pulse. These days admission to those places is too easy.

    So we really have a double problem with college admissions in this country. It is too competitive at the high end, hurting some really great students, and too easy at the low end, encouraging a vast sea of young people to waste 4-6 years of their life, and their family’s and the government’s money, partying and following sports.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    I don't see the problem with the first prong of your "double problem." The "great students" who are rejected by the top-ranked schools go on to attend the next tier of schools. It's not as if the faculty at these next tier schools are chopped liver.
  75. Regarding the stressful workload, a math professor who taught at Caltech 40-odd years back told me that finals week was an interesting time, with fights breaking out among the freshman and other stressful reactions from boys who for the first time in their lives were not top of the class, head and shoulders above all around them. It sounded like being at Caltech was good for their souls, humbling them as few schools could.

  76. @JW Bell
    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it's easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).

    Yes, this is basically an open secret of UC admissions. Anyone who goes to community college for two years and meets some standards (I think GPA is one of them) is virtually guaranteed a transfer spot.

    On the negative side, you spend the first two years of college at a community college.

  77. @Jack D
    I don't know what the #'s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT's defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants - they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT - the final GPA's are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven't they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What's interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there's quite a disparity between departments - somewhere I'll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT

    It looks like those data are from a long time ago, presumably before MIT instituted aggressive affirmative action for females: “This research was completed before the implementation of changes in the Scholastic Aptitude Text (SAT) format in the 1994-1995 school year.” This creates a bit of a composition problem—the female cohort attending MIT a quarter-century ago may have been more math- and physics-focused (on average) than today’s cohort.

    Also, the main purpose of this study was simply to show that differences on the SAT I Math subtest are not predictive of performance in STEM. The fact that it is based on the ancient pre-recentered SAT means that the Math subtest was not nearly as compressed at the high end as today.

    Nowadays probably close to half of MIT/CalTech students score a perfect 800 on the Math test, so it doesn’t really say anything and is not a basis for admission. But back then, even a 730 was probably harder than today’s 800, so there were appreciable differences between male and female scores. Because so many applicants of both sexes will have perfect or near-perfect test scores now, there is not going to be a huge difference there. I suspect the main difference—the reason it is so much harder to get in as a male—is that males will need to have more impressive extracurriculars (e.g., state, national, or international math and science awards) to stand out from other male applicants. For females, it may suffice to mainly have good grades and scores, with more “standard strong” extracurriculars (e.g., mainly school awards, or city or regional awards and activities).

    • Replies: @res
    Good points, but see my link showing the MIT demographic change was well underway during the 1980s.
    , @Opinionator

    Also, the main purpose of this study was simply to show that differences on the SAT I Math subtest are not predictive of performance in STEM.
     
    A surprising result, no?
  78. @ic1000
    Mostly OT: Via commenter Robert Ford at Razib's new place --

    DNA Tests, and Sometimes Surprising Results, by Anita Foeman, professor of communications studies, West Chester University. NYT, 4/20/17.

    Prof. Foeman has had hundreds of her students predict their racial pedigree, then take ancestry/com-23andMe type ancestry tests.

    As a member in good standing of the Academy, she'd be unable to compose a sentence that contains the words "race" and "evolution." Yet unsurprisingly, her findings are best understood in an HBD-aware framework.

    Most amusing case study: Bernard

    Identifies as: Black; father is black and mother is white

    His prediction: 50% European, 50% African

    His comments before the test: "My mother said, 'I know you are me, but no cop is going to take the time to find out your mother is white.' She was very specific about raising me as a black man.

    Results: 91% European, 5% Middle Eastern, 2% Hispanic; less than 1% African and Asian

    Thoughts about his ancestry results: "What are you trying to do to me? You have caused a lot of problems in my family. I know my nose is sharp and my skin is light, but my politics are as black as night. Today, I don’t identify as mixed. I reject my white privilege in a racist America. There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black."
     
    As far as I know, he is not the president of the local chapter of the NAACP.

    The fairer the color, the fiercer the brother.

  79. @cthulhu


    On the other hand, I’ve heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

     

    I work with quite a few people with masters and doctorate engineering degrees from top tier schools - Caltech, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA / UCSD / UC Davis, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc. Note that I have an engineering degree from a solidly respected but not worshipped state school, but am one of the top technical people in my field - aerospace engineering - at my company. All of the above are very good schools and I can't see any significant difference between any of them in the fields of aerospace and mechanical engineering, with two exceptions: the people from Cal Poly SLO and Purdue come out of college with a better background in design and analysis aimed at, you know, actually building stuff that works instead of doing research.

    But in the end, the person's capabilities are much more important than the specific school, as long as the school meets reasonable standards that pretty much every decent state school in engineering can meet. Smart and resourceful people will pick up the skills needed to do the jobs they are asked to do.

    In my opinion as an academic, most undergraduates will receive a better education at a well-respected regional college (Cal Poly SLO, Gonzaga, Emory, Creighton, Cooper Union, etc.) than at a major research university. This is true for both STEM and humanities.

    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything, there’s no reason to choose a university with giant lecture halls and zero face-time with professors, unless at 18 you already know exactly whose lab you want to work in.

    • Agree: TomSchmidt, Autochthon
    • Replies: @Opinionator

    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything
     
    But are they?
  80. @Diversity Heretic
    What are your grandchild prospects?

    Thank you for asking. I have two grandsons, 10 and 8, by my older son (from my previous marriage.) My wife and I also got granddaughter, (1+1/2) y.o, by our older (of two) children — by our son and his wife. Our daughter is not married and has no kids. Sure, it is a big concern for me and my wife.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    May I ask why that is a big concern of yours?
  81. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    I went to MIT a long time ago. The student body was very similar looking in distribution to the Ivies. When I was a freshman my fraternity brother shot a moose, so at least one hunter.

  82. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    http://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/kelly_kennedy.html
    Like father, like daughter
    Raytheon CEO’s support of the next generation of women leaders also extends to his home

    When Tom Kennedy became Raytheon’s chief executive officer in March 2014, one of the first things he did was reaffirm his strong support for diversity and inclusion.

    That’s because he believes they are vital in strengthening a company culture that drives innovation, problem solving and breakthrough ideas.

    A key focus for Raytheon and Kennedy has been retaining and attracting women – since they have been traditionally underrepresented in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) fields – by implementing a holistic program of high-impact efforts to support women’s careers. These include changing how Raytheon hires, developing the skill sets of women by identifying and closing experiential gaps, holding managers accountable for driving the program, and sponsoring and mentoring current and future women leaders.

    Kennedy is supporting the next generation of women leaders both at Raytheon and at home. His daughter, Kelly, is an engineer in her own right, and she’s starting her career at a telecommunications company with a goal of someday being a CEO herself.

    On March 7, Tom and Kelly appeared on a panel together at Leaders & Daughters Boston 2017, sponsored by recruiting firm EgonZehnder, to share their experiences and discuss how to cultivate the next generation of women leaders…

    He went to Rutgers and UCLA. His daughter went to Santa Clara U. I know he has a lot of MIT and Stanford geniuses working for him (at levels and salary digits well below the executive ranks). She’ll have the same thing when she becomes senior management of some STEM corporation. If you go to a Caltech or MIT you will have to stress your whole life living up to people’s high expectations.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Raytheon CEO’s support of the next generation of women leaders also extends to his home

    This CEO might just be talking the necessary PC.

    I worked as a software engineer at Raytheon right out of undergrad in the mid-'80s. Raytheon had plenty of female engineers, well, perhaps 20%. Back then graduating Computer Science classes were 35% or more female. I worked with several at Raytheon and had one female supervisor, all were quite competent. But back then there was a lot of job-hopping. Males and females were lumping to other companies for 25% pay increases, and then some would land back at Raytheon three of four years later.

    All more than competent, but none of these folks, men or women, were Ivy League grads. Mostly all grads from a select ten or so colleges in the greater Boston area. And many of them had fathers that worked or had worked at Raytheon. In fact, Raytheon put bread on the table for four generations of my family. My 92 year old grandmother is still collecting my grandfather's pension and he died 30 years ago!

  83. I got an MBA from the Univeristy of Chicago in 1974. I remember some graduate students in Physics and Chemistry were CIT and MIT grads with, drumroll please, C averages in college. There is no hard science program at Chicago which admitted C students who had graduated from any Ivy League college.
    The Chicago undergrads wore tee shirts which read, “It would have been an A anywhere else”. As far as I could tell, they were right excepting CIT, MIT and Swarthmore. In those days, the late 1960s and early 1970s, CIT, MIT, Chicago and Swarthmore had grading standards which were far removed from Stanford and the Ivies.
    That some CIT girl was virtually in tears at her work load is no surprise to me.

  84. @Opinionator
    That's a nice story.

    Why did you advise her to take linear algebra?

    Thank you for asking.
    Actual formulation was given by me to her when she was in High School:
    “If I will die before you finish your education,
    you must take Linear Algebra course, and then do whatever you want with your life”.
    She successfully took it, and now I feel free to die.
    I believe it helped her understand better the idea of superposition of electronic orbitals in quantum theory of molecular structure, when she was
    at Dept. of Chemistry and Chem. Biology of Cornell U. (undergrad. program.)
    Nowadays I am not so sure in the wisdom of that advice.
    May be Linear Algebra helped her to operate Atomic Force Microscope
    in the study of cell membrane of placenta as anti-viral barrier; may be not.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Thanks, interesting. Did she take the course while in high school, community college, or as a part-time student at a local Uni? It sounded like you wanted her to take it before choosing where to go full time.
  85. @Opinionator
    That's a nice story.

    Why did you advise her to take linear algebra?

    Thank you for asking.
    Actual formulation was given by me to her when she was in High School:
    “If I will die before you finish your education,
    you must take Linear Algebra course, and then do whatever you want with your life”.
    She successfully took it, and now I feel free to die.
    I believe it helped her understand better the idea of superposition of electronic orbitals in quantum theory of molecular structure, when she was
    at Dept. of Chemistry and Chem. Biology of Cornell U. (undergrad. program.)
    Nowadays I am not so sure in the wisdom of that advice.
    May be Linear Algebra helped her to operate Atomic Force Microscope
    in the study of cell membrane of placenta as anti-viral barrier; may be not.

  86. @snorlax
    MIT and Wellesley College organize a special bus service between the two, colloquially known as the "fuck truck." The MIT boys presumably have something to recommend them, seeing as the Wellesley girls prefer a 45-minute bus ride, cold in the winter and hot in the summer, to the 10-minute drive to preppy business school Babson College.

    My anecdotal observation, and to the best of my knowledge all the available data agree, is that intelligence, attractiveness, athleticism, work ethic and eusocial behavior are all positively correlated with one another, if not hugely so.

    Babson boys come to Wellesley College (in pickup trucks). Wellesley and Babson colleges are barely a mile apart, you can walk from one to the other in 15-20 minutes on the crosstown path. More importantly for the host, both border golf courses, though their architecture looks so-so to me (I’m no expert, though).
    I know plenty of MIT and Wellesley College students and grads. Most are nice, kind, well-adjusted people, very smart and hard-working, of course, and some are even athletic and outdoorsy. But they’re not the type that end up in the news. An attractive white female would do extremely well at MIT in terms of marriageable partner selection.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    SportsFan, so sad to hear that the students are good and kind and well adjusted. We need to get some antifas and BLMs in the mix to F**k that up. Let's all get together at 4:07 pm and discuss this.
  87. @JW Bell
    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it's easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).

    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it’s easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).

    The same is true for the University of Texas, which famously has a “top 7% rule” for freshman admissions in order to produce more diversity. What happens of course, is that many of those diverse freshman flunk out by the time their sophomore year comes to close. This opens up slots for transfer students.

    The downside to this is that it is virtually impossible as a transfer student to enter the business or engineering schools. Those schools have their own rigorous freshman requirements and the students don’t drop out at the same rate. The diverse students didn’t enter those colleges, they came in as Liberal Arts or Education majors (or even University Studies, aka Undecided)

    So, if you transfer in, you will have to major in something other than business or engineering. Nice little racket that UT-Austin has set up.

  88. When half of society’s engineers are women, society will do half the engineering it once did.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    You can't be serious.
  89. @Anon
    Crazy world

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpe7PGK2ZPw

    In the future white men will be looked at as a mythical lost civilization like Atlantis. People really did all those things? Wow!!

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I've been highly tempted to write a story much like that.

    "How did the Ancients die out if they were so advanced?"

    "They killed themselves out of self-hate."
    , @tyrone
    they will be too busy looking for roots and twigs
  90. @Anonymous
    Even better, have an extremely tall girl.

    A (non-minority) girl at my son's high school got admitted to both Caltech and MIT this year (she's planning on studying environmental engineering). While a top student - she has a near-4.0 unweighted and double digit number of AP courses - I'm pretty sure the fact that she is 6-2" and plays club volleyball had a lot to do with her acceptances. (The non-minority boy we sent to MIT last year was more the stereotype you associate with MIT - recognized as extremely bright/"genius" since grade school, loved programming since middle school, repeat category winner in consecutive years at the International Intel science fair, and ended up leaving high school after 11th grade. In contrast, this girl is just a very good student - the type of student that the ivy leagues and elite colleges will tell you they can fill their classes with several times over.) She signed with MIT a couple of weeks ago. Division III schools don't give you money for sports, you just have an easier time getting admitted.

    Interestingly enough, I have a second friend with a 6'+ daughter who plays on an even better nationally-ranked club volleyball team. She was recruited by Harvard, Cornell, and Penn but they don't give money for sports and her parents were looking for $$$. She was offered full rides from a few schools, including William and Mary and Boston College. The private, highly nationally-ranked college she chose is giving her tuition, room/meals, books, tutors, and a couple grand per year in pocket money. She is planning to study something like biochemistry.

    Caltech seems to be trying to beef up its sports teams of late. Another (very smart, non-minority) boy from our high school was recruited last year to play basketball at Caltech (University of Chicago was also trying to woo him). He ended up going to a local private college that gave him a lot of money.

    I was wrong – MIT actually signed *two* girls from our high school for volleyball.

  91. My girlfriend in high school did something like this, she applied to the engineering school of our flagship state university got accepted because girl and then quickly transferred and majored in feminist film theory or some such. At the time I was like “respect – her parents worked the system” but deep down I still kind of felt like it was unfair and felt a little salty about it. Somebody suggested to me back then that boys could do the opposite scam and apply to the nursing school, but I didn’t go for it.

  92. @jimbojones
    I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn't just that there is too much homework; it's also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian.

    You are probably correct.
    A pretty 2nd generation Indian girl from my area got accepted to MIT.
    She told me the women have a saying about the guys there:
    “The odds are good, but the goods are odd.”

  93. @Lagertha
    the truth is: Caltech blinked. About 6 years ago, they fell (the last American institution) for the "diversity," web. They started to accept kids from "under-served," regions/backgrounds. They upped their search for girls. They upped their acceptance of anyone but white cerebral boys.

    Full disclosure: the soccer coach at Caltech (C soccer, has never won a game, never), was all excited that with the foreign boys (also good soccer players) and my son (New England - premier and varsity/all state), white; so - fougetaboudid - Caltech could finally have a winning team. The coach sent him several messages....but no. BTW, this is not a joke.

    Of course, this eldest son, despite being in the top 1% nationally, and, with 3 Varsity sports (2 good for Caltech; rugby not so much) and Robotics, chess, orchestra, several languages....well, he was not accepted.

    I have great schools for girls who are STEM oriented, btw - schools where they would be happy...but, send me a message. I told my son: Caltech made a big mistake with you; they would have finally started a new phase: a small, most prestigious science school/college/U with very smart, worldly/multi-national kids, who are also good at some sports...vs...the last 40 years. Did I mention that American parents would pay the full-freight (go into debt - Caltech gives no scholarships, duh) for their typical white child, if that child was accepted at Caltech?

    Wait a year and check the black instead of White box.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Finally, someone who gets it. If Barry Obama can be black, anyone can.
    , @Lagertha
    this is so late.............but, admissions do check up on correct race. ON THE OTHER HAND: my youngest has a very unusual name. So many U's thought he was black - bc, all my sons have 4 names, and admission administrators are truly racist. My youngest (all my 3 sons) has 2 middle names that are French...but Cajun/New Orleans French (a fact), so, every elite U in the country was hot for him...bc it was still not real French-French. Well, sooner or later they googled him (he is google worthy) and realized he is a kid in New England who is smart and good in sport, but very Lagertha pale.
  94. @cthulhu


    On the other hand, I’ve heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

     

    I work with quite a few people with masters and doctorate engineering degrees from top tier schools - Caltech, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA / UCSD / UC Davis, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc. Note that I have an engineering degree from a solidly respected but not worshipped state school, but am one of the top technical people in my field - aerospace engineering - at my company. All of the above are very good schools and I can't see any significant difference between any of them in the fields of aerospace and mechanical engineering, with two exceptions: the people from Cal Poly SLO and Purdue come out of college with a better background in design and analysis aimed at, you know, actually building stuff that works instead of doing research.

    But in the end, the person's capabilities are much more important than the specific school, as long as the school meets reasonable standards that pretty much every decent state school in engineering can meet. Smart and resourceful people will pick up the skills needed to do the jobs they are asked to do.

    Do you have any opinion of a school named Embry Riddle in AZ? Aeronautics and Aerospace are their specialty.

    • Replies: @cthulhu
    Embry-Riddle is a good school and practical oriented but not the equal of a Cal Poly SLO, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc.

    If you are a CA resident and your kid is smart and wants to go into engineering, especially aerospace or mechanical, Cal Poly SLO is the best value in the country - cheap and a top 20 school on anybody's list. If you're a Texas resident, A&M is about the same. But again, a smart and motivated student will be fine at any reasonable school. The only real advantage to a "name" school is it may help the graduate get an interview.
    , @David Davenport
    Do you have any opinion of a school named Embry Riddle in AZ? Aeronautics and Aerospace are their specialty.

    No, E.R.'s specialty is being a trade school to train future low wage regional airline pilots.

    If your loved ones want to be pilots, they should get their training in the U.S. mil.

    If they want to be engineers, they'd be better off at your in-state U. main campus.

    In short, don't go to Embry Piddle.
  95. @Anonymous Nephew
    A thought - could a girl not apply for a STEM place at a top college, then half way through term 1 ask to change to the course she actually wants to do (and which she would not have been accepted for because competition)?

    It really depends on the university. In some universities (e.g. Penn), the engineering school is a separate school so you are admitted only to that school and need to get formal transfer approval (not easy) to switch to another school. In others, (e.g. MIT) everyone is admitted to the u. as an undeclared major and can choose any major they want later. But as I mentioned, there is a science core curriculum that everyone has to take so you have to take a lot of science/math courses anyway. In general, trying to “sneak” into MIT is like trying to sneak into the lion’s cage at the zoo – if you are scheming for some kind of easy short cut to a prestigious degree it’s a lousy plan.

    • LOL: Coemgen
    • Replies: @res

    trying to “sneak” into MIT is like trying to sneak into the lion’s cage at the zoo
     
    LOL!
  96. @black sea
    I onced worked with a woman whose daughter had enrolled in MIT. Dad was a physics professor and mom was no slouch herself, so MIT seemed like a sound choice. A few years into her program, however, the girl had a nervous collapse over the workload, dropped out, moved back into her parents' house, and started waiting tables.

    OK, the parents thought, she needs some time to decompress, kick back, and get her thoughts in order. But the waitressing phase seemed to drag on indefinitely. The parents realized that MIT had been an overreach, but assumed that she would transer to another school. The daughter, however, wasn't having it. She wasn't interested at that point in studying anything anywhere in any school that called itself a university or institute of . . . . whatever.

    Don't know how it all worked out.

    Well, one obvious path forward for the girl is getting married and having many sprogs. Let’s see … Good genetic heritage, MIT admitted but not a lot of student debt, not shopworn after a decade on campus. Might actually be a pretty good deal for someone traditional, if they hit it off.

    • Agree: Opinionator
  97. @Larry, San Francisco
    These days college admissions is pretty tough even for female engineers. My daughter who was in the top 8% of her high school class (a top flight private school) and had close to a 1500 SAT score was rejected from almost all the engineering schools she applied to (nearly 15) including both her parents' alma maters. We were pretty depressed until she got accepted to the only UC school that has a mollusk as a mascot (which she is pretty happy about). Much different than when I went to college with a similar credentials 4o years ago. Although I didn't apply to top Ivy league ( Harvard, Stanford, Princeton or Yale) I did get accepted into the other Ivies and other top private schools. No way that would happen now.

    My son also got rejected by the top schools he applied to, despite being valedictorian, high SAT, several AP exams, unique extracurriculars, community service, a job in the major he was applying for, and plenty of awards.

    But like all the other high-achieving, top-school rejects, he’ll do quite well in life and I won’t have to pay the outrageous tuition.

    Let’s face it: white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It’s going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.

    • Replies: @27 year old
    >white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It’s going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.

    Those that survive, sure
    , @Desiderius

    Let’s face it: white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It’s going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.
     
    That's what I was often told as an explanation/rationalization for bald-faced discrimination. The problem is that those outside the spotlight learn from those in it. They've learned to discriminate from their betters. I've known talented white men who never did find a place.
  98. @Truth

    Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.
     
    Women perfer to work with living things, men with objects. Always has been that way.

    Not this woman. The thing I hated, totally hated about working was being around other people. It wasn’t just lecherous men and vicious affirmative action black women either. My ideal job would be making something beautiful at home all alone.

  99. @Jack D
    Here's the table:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N47/women/tables.pdf

    This was from 2008 but I don't think things have changed much.

    The top 3 male dominated majors (or as MIT calls them, "courses") with more that 50 majors in each are aeronautics, electrical eng. /comp. sci and physics (these are up to 70% male even though the class is 55% male).

    The top 3 female dominated majors are brain science, bio, civil and ENVIRONMENTAL eng. - these are up to 75% female.

    Here’s a look at the number of women per year and major at MIT. Data back to 1998-99.
    http://web.mit.edu/registrar/stats/gender/

    Your table is a better look at the sex balance, but I think the above link complements it with more detail for the women.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    You can see that while MIT nominally has a school of humanities, you can almost count the # of humanities undergrad there on your fingers, especially when you eliminate economics which is itself math heavy. And you'll notice that there are no black/feminist, etc. "studies" majors at all (media studies is as close as they get). The only MIT undergraduate degree is "bachelor of science" and they aren't kidding.
  100. @snorlax
    These exclusivity effects are also part of the reason affirmative action is hard to get rid of. Never did I see so much anti-AA sentiment amongst my peers as when my HS class was applying to college, only for these erstwhile Jesse Helmses to become loud-n-proud SJWs the second they matriculated (judging by Facebook feeds). Some of that was propaganda, a lot was "I got mine."

    There is an article in today’s NYTimes about flying cars (watch the video, kind of cool – it looks like an oversized quadcopter drone that’s big enough for a man to ride on- actually more of a flying motorcycle than a flying car. The video has no sound so you don’t hear that they sound like a thousand angry bees).

    But anyway, there’s a quote in the article which neatly sums up all SWPLs, if you substitute just about anything for “flying car”:

    I love the idea of being able to go out into my backyard and hop into my flying car,” said Brad Templeton, a Silicon Valley entrepreneur who has served as a consultant on Google’s self-driving project. “I hate the idea of my next-door neighbor having one.”

    Having a flying car/ Ivy League degree, etc., etc. is only fun insofar as others don’t.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    JackD, Years ago there was a very prominent Buffalonian, Hazzard Campbell (cool name or what), who developed an airplane that steered like a car. Unfortunately, he hit some power lines while attempting to land and was killed. Their estate is now the very nice Crag Burn golf course in East Aurora, NY.
  101. @gcochran
    Sure it does, at least for women, and for a long time: easier admission standards for women dates back to 1990.

    Greg, do you have data for Caltech? There was a controversy about this in their school newspaper in 2010. This link gives an excerpt: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/10473002/#Comment_10473002
    Their link to the original article is broken, but the full issue of the newspaper (this was a front page story) is available at http://caltechcampuspubs.library.caltech.edu/1927/1/2010_05_03_113_22.pdf
    The administration claimed they were not engaging in affirmative action and it was just increased recruitment. Color me skeptical.

    At MIT the big change was in the 1980s. From about 23% of undergrads to about 34%. See Chart 1 in http://web.mit.edu/ir/reports/MIT_Gender_Report_5-15-03.pdf
    Another uptick in the late 1990s from about 35-40%. Currently about 44% I think.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Maybe these schools are strategizing that in order to continue to attract the best male students they need to have more eligible females on campus?
  102. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Larry, San Francisco
    These days college admissions is pretty tough even for female engineers. My daughter who was in the top 8% of her high school class (a top flight private school) and had close to a 1500 SAT score was rejected from almost all the engineering schools she applied to (nearly 15) including both her parents' alma maters. We were pretty depressed until she got accepted to the only UC school that has a mollusk as a mascot (which she is pretty happy about). Much different than when I went to college with a similar credentials 4o years ago. Although I didn't apply to top Ivy league ( Harvard, Stanford, Princeton or Yale) I did get accepted into the other Ivies and other top private schools. No way that would happen now.

    It could be she choose a super competitive branch of engineering. We just went through the college admissions process this year, too. All California public schools had record applications – Cal State Long Beach had over 91,000, UCI over 104,000 – second only to UCLA at 119,000. My son, applying for engineering, ended up getting into a top five UC and waitlisted at the other three second tier ones (we were pleasantly surprised since we knew admissions in CA is extremely tough and had a number out of state safeties lined up. I had heard stories from other parents of students with 4.6 GPAs being rejected from UCSB but admitted into Purdue for engineering so we knew it was going to be a crapshoot.) My niece, who was applying from out of state for mechanical engineering with a significantly lower ACT score and fewer APs than her cousin, got into the same UC as my son. Based on her other admittances to very good programs around the country she was definitely given the ovary pass, though paying out of state tuition rates probably helped her, too. Waitlisting seemed to be the trend this year, for both public and private schools.

    Computer science is *the* hot major, with schools like Cal Poly SLO accepting less than 10% to their program. Bioengineering/Biomedical engineering is also very hot. I am surprised how popular aerospace engineering remains since the industry is so cyclical and most of the big companies are such bastards to work for but I guess the allure of building planes, rockets, and spacecraft is hard to resist. My field, electrical engineering, is waning in popularity and is, surprisingly, one of the easier ones to get admitted into. It seems like everybody and their brother’s kid is going into engineering or computer science these days. It’ll be interesting to see how many kids will actually graduate with those degrees. It’s difficult even for good students and this generation has been raised in an era of partial credit, do-overs, and helicopter parenting.

  103. @res
    Here's a look at the number of women per year and major at MIT. Data back to 1998-99.
    http://web.mit.edu/registrar/stats/gender/

    Your table is a better look at the sex balance, but I think the above link complements it with more detail for the women.

    You can see that while MIT nominally has a school of humanities, you can almost count the # of humanities undergrad there on your fingers, especially when you eliminate economics which is itself math heavy. And you’ll notice that there are no black/feminist, etc. “studies” majors at all (media studies is as close as they get). The only MIT undergraduate degree is “bachelor of science” and they aren’t kidding.

    • Replies: @res
    Economics is notorious as a way to satisfy the humanities concentration requirement without having to do much of what most people think of as "humanities" (e.g. lots of writing). Still have to satisfy the distribution requirement though: http://web.mit.edu/hassreq/
  104. It has gotten better at MIT since Marilee Jones(who was hired for very the purpose of attracting more women) left.

    2005-2006: 7608 males applied, 10% admitted: 758. Number DENIED: 6850 2832 females applied, 26% admitteD: 736. Number DENIED: 2096

    2004-2005: 7669 males applied, 11.7% admitted: 898. Number DENIED: 6771 2797 females applied, 27.4% admitted: 767. Number DENIED: 2030

    2003-2004: 7651 males applied, 11.6% admitted: 885. Number DENIED: 6766 2898 females applied, 29.3% admitted: 850. Number DENIED: 2048

    Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/falsified-resume-forces-resignation-of-mit-dean.167822/page-2#post-1319665

    I’ve seen some comments in various places from MIT alumni saying that MIT changed their selection criteria, like stressing more on SAT-V and there was a marked difference in the student body from thereon.

    Amusingly, there was some speculation that Jones’s fake resume came to light after she had given an opinion about raising boys’ performance in schools a few months prior.

  105. I have a B.S. in Chemistry and an M.S. in Applied Math. The women in my programs were as competent as the men even though there were many fewer of them. If any were special female admits, it was not apparent. However male attrition out of the much larger engineering school (flunking engineering transfers to the business school) was significant. So plenty of men got admitted to engineering who couldn’t cut the mustard.

    I do know that colleges and universities do have a non-PC driven criterion for gender balance simply for the social life aspects. Neither gender wants an environment saturated with the same sex students. Since girls now do better coming out of high school, admissions at many colleges will favor male applicants to the extent that a balanced gender target is approximated.

    This is really big deal at the Historic Black Colleges and Universities (HBCU) that are scrambling to fix big ratio asymmetries with too few men.

  106. @biz
    Significantly fewer females than males are applying to Caltech and MIT. These might be extraordinary female students.

    Doesn't Caltech famously not practice affirmative action preferences?

    I have some inside information on this one. For several years I was the grader for the Caltech freshman placement exams in physics, and each year out of curiosity I sorted the results by gender. The girls consistently scored about a standard deviation lower than the boys.

  107. @Jack D
    It really depends on the university. In some universities (e.g. Penn), the engineering school is a separate school so you are admitted only to that school and need to get formal transfer approval (not easy) to switch to another school. In others, (e.g. MIT) everyone is admitted to the u. as an undeclared major and can choose any major they want later. But as I mentioned, there is a science core curriculum that everyone has to take so you have to take a lot of science/math courses anyway. In general, trying to "sneak" into MIT is like trying to sneak into the lion's cage at the zoo - if you are scheming for some kind of easy short cut to a prestigious degree it's a lousy plan.

    trying to “sneak” into MIT is like trying to sneak into the lion’s cage at the zoo

    LOL!

  108. @Jack D
    You can see that while MIT nominally has a school of humanities, you can almost count the # of humanities undergrad there on your fingers, especially when you eliminate economics which is itself math heavy. And you'll notice that there are no black/feminist, etc. "studies" majors at all (media studies is as close as they get). The only MIT undergraduate degree is "bachelor of science" and they aren't kidding.

    Economics is notorious as a way to satisfy the humanities concentration requirement without having to do much of what most people think of as “humanities” (e.g. lots of writing). Still have to satisfy the distribution requirement though: http://web.mit.edu/hassreq/

  109. @JW Bell
    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it's easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).

    Transferring from a community college is the secret of getting into a top UC. They have a large transfer quota and it’s easy to satisfy the requirements. Often admission is guaranteed (or it used to be).

    Also the first two years weeds out a fair number of people who would have been better off at Cal State East Bay leaving air pockets for junior and senior slots. My former boss did it this way….nobody ever asked if he spent all four years at Cal.

  110. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    http://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/kelly_kennedy.html
    Like father, like daughter
    Raytheon CEO’s support of the next generation of women leaders also extends to his home

    When Tom Kennedy became Raytheon’s chief executive officer in March 2014, one of the first things he did was reaffirm his strong support for diversity and inclusion.

    That’s because he believes they are vital in strengthening a company culture that drives innovation, problem solving and breakthrough ideas.

    A key focus for Raytheon and Kennedy has been retaining and attracting women – since they have been traditionally underrepresented in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) fields – by implementing a holistic program of high-impact efforts to support women’s careers. These include changing how Raytheon hires, developing the skill sets of women by identifying and closing experiential gaps, holding managers accountable for driving the program, and sponsoring and mentoring current and future women leaders.

    Kennedy is supporting the next generation of women leaders both at Raytheon and at home. His daughter, Kelly, is an engineer in her own right, and she’s starting her career at a telecommunications company with a goal of someday being a CEO herself.

    On March 7, Tom and Kelly appeared on a panel together at Leaders & Daughters Boston 2017, sponsored by recruiting firm EgonZehnder, to share their experiences and discuss how to cultivate the next generation of women leaders...
     

    He went to Rutgers and UCLA. His daughter went to Santa Clara U. I know he has a lot of MIT and Stanford geniuses working for him (at levels and salary digits well below the executive ranks). She'll have the same thing when she becomes senior management of some STEM corporation. If you go to a Caltech or MIT you will have to stress your whole life living up to people's high expectations.

    Raytheon CEO’s support of the next generation of women leaders also extends to his home

    This CEO might just be talking the necessary PC.

    I worked as a software engineer at Raytheon right out of undergrad in the mid-’80s. Raytheon had plenty of female engineers, well, perhaps 20%. Back then graduating Computer Science classes were 35% or more female. I worked with several at Raytheon and had one female supervisor, all were quite competent. But back then there was a lot of job-hopping. Males and females were lumping to other companies for 25% pay increases, and then some would land back at Raytheon three of four years later.

    All more than competent, but none of these folks, men or women, were Ivy League grads. Mostly all grads from a select ten or so colleges in the greater Boston area. And many of them had fathers that worked or had worked at Raytheon. In fact, Raytheon put bread on the table for four generations of my family. My 92 year old grandmother is still collecting my grandfather’s pension and he died 30 years ago!

    • Replies: @black sea

    "More than 90% of Raytheon's revenues were obtained from military contracts and, as of 2012, it was the fifth-largest military contractor in the world. As of 2015, it is the third largest defense contractor in the United States by defense revenue."

     

    Strong support for diversity and inclusion goes along with the gig.
  111. @keuril

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT
     
    It looks like those data are from a long time ago, presumably before MIT instituted aggressive affirmative action for females: "This research was completed before the implementation of changes in the Scholastic Aptitude Text (SAT) format in the 1994-1995 school year." This creates a bit of a composition problem—the female cohort attending MIT a quarter-century ago may have been more math- and physics-focused (on average) than today's cohort.

    Also, the main purpose of this study was simply to show that differences on the SAT I Math subtest are not predictive of performance in STEM. The fact that it is based on the ancient pre-recentered SAT means that the Math subtest was not nearly as compressed at the high end as today.

    Nowadays probably close to half of MIT/CalTech students score a perfect 800 on the Math test, so it doesn't really say anything and is not a basis for admission. But back then, even a 730 was probably harder than today's 800, so there were appreciable differences between male and female scores. Because so many applicants of both sexes will have perfect or near-perfect test scores now, there is not going to be a huge difference there. I suspect the main difference—the reason it is so much harder to get in as a male—is that males will need to have more impressive extracurriculars (e.g., state, national, or international math and science awards) to stand out from other male applicants. For females, it may suffice to mainly have good grades and scores, with more "standard strong" extracurriculars (e.g., mainly school awards, or city or regional awards and activities).

    Good points, but see my link showing the MIT demographic change was well underway during the 1980s.

  112. @Whiskey
    This just in ... women don't like nerds. They HATE HATE HATE them. Even or especially Asian girls. They'll just tolerate them better while thinking of the money and bad boys behind the nerd's back.

    Caltech and MIT are still filled with nerds. If they want women, they'll have to ditch the math and science and get plenty of afleets, plus bad boy nascent drug dealers, various random rich dudes who are ah0les, and and various charisma enhanced dudes. You know, men women actually want. As opposed to nerds, who are about as attractive as a baseball statistics convention to most women.

    I say recruit Charlie-Z!

  113. @JimB
    Unless your ambition is to die of overwork syndrome in your 30s or find yourself out of a job at 40, it probably doesn't make sense to get a typical engineering degree. Whether it's laying train tracks over the Sierras or laying out a circuit with a billion transistors, you will lose to the Chinese every time. Better to get a polysci or psychology degree from a prestigious liberal arts college and parlay that into a CEO job.

    Unless your ambition is to die of overwork syndrome in your 30s or find yourself out of a job at 40, it probably doesn’t make sense to get a typical engineering degree.

    Do other iSteve readers agree with this?

    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat
    I'm a PhD in engineering with 20+ years of experience. In my opinion, there are a lot of crap jobs in engineering. To get a BS in engineering you have to be able to do things like find power series solutions to differential equations. Probably 95% of people will never be able to do that no matter how long they study. But most jobs you can get with a BS involve detail design, making minor modifications to codes someone else conceived and wrote, updating parts lists, salesmanship - stuff a bright high-schooler could do.

    There is interesting work but you have to position yourself to get it, and actively manage your career to stay in it. I've passed on two management positions, because I went to college for nine years so I could discover and invent things, not mediate arguments over who gets which cubicle or tell someone he needs to take a shower because he's stinking up the office.
  114. @Rod1963
    Yes I remember reading that stat some years back that, a college education will kill a woman's reproductive chances. Kiss of death so to speak.

    I can understand why, the woman buys into the meaningful corporate career crap put out by feminist and corporate PR firms, likes the money she's bringing in and then she puts off being a mommy until it's too late or worse, ends up a old maid who didn't get picked by her sell by date.

    And if they do have kids. it's generally one. End of bloodline for both parents.

    Slightly OT: I just wonder if this is the mechanism so to speak that is responsible for the cold death of whites and Western Civ.

    I dunno. I know an awful lot of women who went looking for their “Mrs” degree and never even pretended to look for a job after graduation. But, maybe things are different in the Midwest.

  115. @biz

    These days college admissions is pretty tough
     
    Actually, that mis-states the problem.

    These days admission to good colleges is too competitive. A lot of great students who a generation ago would have been material for the Ivies, Chicago, Stanford, etc, or a tier below that for Georgetown, Northwestern, etc, and for the flagship state Us and top liberal arts colleges, are just not getting in to those places. In part it is just due to these places having approximately the same undergraduate class sizes now as in 1960 in the face of a population that has doubled and international enrollment that has quintupled.

    On the other hand, shitty colleges - the huge second tier and lower state Us, party-oriented private Us, the for profits, etc. - are admitting anyone with a pulse. These days admission to those places is too easy.

    So we really have a double problem with college admissions in this country. It is too competitive at the high end, hurting some really great students, and too easy at the low end, encouraging a vast sea of young people to waste 4-6 years of their life, and their family's and the government's money, partying and following sports.

    I don’t see the problem with the first prong of your “double problem.” The “great students” who are rejected by the top-ranked schools go on to attend the next tier of schools. It’s not as if the faculty at these next tier schools are chopped liver.

    • Replies: @Renault
    But faculty quality means pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. People aren't fighting to attend Ivies because the professors are great -- it's because the students are.

    And no matter what any BS study tells you, the difference between students at HYP and students at second-tier schools (Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is tremendous. Not in terms of IQ, but in terms of everything else that matters in life.
    , @biz
    I agree it is not really a problem for the student who doesn't get into the Ivies but gets into Hopkins or Georgtown or NYU or Northwestern.

    But one tier down from that it is a problem.

    For example the student who doesn't get into Hopkins or Georgetown or NYU or Northwestern anymore (although they would have 15 years ago) and has to just go to Penn State (#1 party school for about a decade running) or SUNY Albany (home of the famous racist bus non-attack) or Rutgers. Or the many students who are now not getting into any of the University of Californias and have to go to Chico State or Cal State LA or some other godawful thug/party campus. These students will simply be denied the opportunities for intellectual and career enrichment that they would have had 15 years ago.

  116. @Jack D
    I don't know what the #'s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT's defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants - they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT - the final GPA's are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven't they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What's interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there's quite a disparity between departments - somewhere I'll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT – the final GPA’s are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate

    Do these outcomes control for major and course of study?

    • Replies: @Larry, San Francisco
    20 years ago, I did an evaluation of grades by gender at the school I was teaching at. I found that women had a higher GPA then men in every major! Although the gender ratios of classes did vary by major (engineering women did quite well but there weren't too many of them). One time I was stuck at the Business School awards. I found it interesting that although women were 1/3 of the majors they had won 3/4 of the awards. I am not sure if that result holds every where but I do know that women are on average significantly better students at most colleges.
  117. @keuril

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT
     
    It looks like those data are from a long time ago, presumably before MIT instituted aggressive affirmative action for females: "This research was completed before the implementation of changes in the Scholastic Aptitude Text (SAT) format in the 1994-1995 school year." This creates a bit of a composition problem—the female cohort attending MIT a quarter-century ago may have been more math- and physics-focused (on average) than today's cohort.

    Also, the main purpose of this study was simply to show that differences on the SAT I Math subtest are not predictive of performance in STEM. The fact that it is based on the ancient pre-recentered SAT means that the Math subtest was not nearly as compressed at the high end as today.

    Nowadays probably close to half of MIT/CalTech students score a perfect 800 on the Math test, so it doesn't really say anything and is not a basis for admission. But back then, even a 730 was probably harder than today's 800, so there were appreciable differences between male and female scores. Because so many applicants of both sexes will have perfect or near-perfect test scores now, there is not going to be a huge difference there. I suspect the main difference—the reason it is so much harder to get in as a male—is that males will need to have more impressive extracurriculars (e.g., state, national, or international math and science awards) to stand out from other male applicants. For females, it may suffice to mainly have good grades and scores, with more "standard strong" extracurriculars (e.g., mainly school awards, or city or regional awards and activities).

    Also, the main purpose of this study was simply to show that differences on the SAT I Math subtest are not predictive of performance in STEM.

    A surprising result, no?

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    Here's what the study says:

    Some have argued that the equal level of GPA's may be partly due to the fact that women major in areas other than engineering or science (the former being considered easier majors than the latter) more often than men do. However, at the university studied, all students are required to pass a minimum of eight science courses and more than three-fourths of each class of women continued to major in science. When GPA's were compared by major, out of each class only one major had a statistically significant difference between men's and women's GPAs.
     
    It's useful to think about what these statistics are likely hiding (interestingly I don't see the sort of detailed breakdowns in the table provided that would make the issue apparent).

    It's certainly obvious from other data that women at MIT are far more likely to major in biology or the life sciences than in the heavily mathematical parts of engineering or the sciences. It may be that on average the women who remain in the more mathematical subjects aren't much different in GPA from the men -- but if the proportion of women who go into those subjects is much, much lower, it hardly entails that the Math SAT has no predictive value.

    Women of course do "overperform" their Math SAT when it comes to GPA. This seems to be true in every subject: they are generally more conscientious about such things -- or, to put a different spin on it -- they are more concerned about the external validation GPA gives them (men often focus only on the subject they really care about, and don't tend to give so much weight to grades).

    The real question is: what does relative performance on the SAT mean in a career? My guess is that its impact is felt much more there. At bare minimum, men are pretty much everywhere outperforming women in STEM fields, especially when math is important, but even when it isn't.
  118. @Seth Largo
    In my opinion as an academic, most undergraduates will receive a better education at a well-respected regional college (Cal Poly SLO, Gonzaga, Emory, Creighton, Cooper Union, etc.) than at a major research university. This is true for both STEM and humanities.

    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything, there's no reason to choose a university with giant lecture halls and zero face-time with professors, unless at 18 you already know exactly whose lab you want to work in.

    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything

    But are they?

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan


    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything
     
    But are they?

     

    Harvard definitely. Yale perhaps, and so also Princeton. Stanford, definitely, in 2017, especially on the West Coast.

    My information is anecdotal, from a sample of about half-a-dozen individuals who've been to these places.

    I'm talking about networks that provide entree into general corporate and government careers for people who leave with bachelor's degrees.

    All the Ivies have very strong networks if you want to go on to graduate school to do a Ph.D.
  119. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thank you for asking. I have two grandsons, 10 and 8, by my older son (from my previous marriage.) My wife and I also got granddaughter, (1+1/2) y.o, by our older (of two) children --- by our son and his wife. Our daughter is not married and has no kids. Sure, it is a big concern for me and my wife.

    May I ask why that is a big concern of yours?

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    I shall skip the answer to that question. It is too personal.
    Thank you for all your nice words.
    Your friendly and truly,
    I.f.f.U.
  120. @jimbojones
    I suspect the problem girls have with Caltech isn't just that there is too much homework; it's also that there are too many nerds, many of whom are Asian/Indian.

    My best friend’s daughter is at Caltech now.

    Caltech and MIT are excellent schools for a girl to attend *if*:

    1) The girl is *really* interested in math or the sciences, not just smart, vaguely interested and\or pushed in that direction.

    and

    2) The girl is interested in\open to having a nerd marriage.

    But if she’s just a smart girl who wants (or is pushed) to go to name college and doesn’t really have an absolute passion for STEM, then it will be a miserable experience–struggling studying stuff you don’t love while competing against more talented boys, whom you find nerdy and unappealing.

    My friend’s daughter is enjoying it. But she really *wanted* to do physics. And my friend is a genuine smart guy–40th all India on the JEE in his year–and the daughter, not surprisingly, is a smart cookie as well.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Regarding #2, first of all, in a place like Boston/Cambridge there are a million colleges so your dating prospects are not confined to MIT men. There are lots of colleges in the LA area if not in Pasadena itself, so I would expect the same at Cal Tech.

    2nd, the MIT students I have met, male and female, are surprisingly NOT nerdy even though very bright. Because they get to pick the cream of the crop of nerds, they tend to go for nerds +, nerds that also exhibit some flare and skill beyond pure nerddom. The big complain of Asian nerds (and it is true) is that if you are a pure nerd with nothing more on your resume MIT may not be interested in you no matter that you have 2400 SATs.

    3rd, marriage at the undergrad level is quite rare at places like MIT - college is no longer where you go to meet your husband.

    #1 almost goes without saying. If you are not really into math/science and not happy to spend a lot of time doing math problems then there are far better places for you. People tend to look at lists of colleges and figure out which is the highest ranked one they or their kids could get into but what's really important is matching the place to your personality and interests. On paper rankings, MIT and Duke have similar rankings (at least from US News) but in real life they are very different places catering to different crowds.
  121. @Father O'Hara
    Probably OT,but it seems Aaron Hernandez, well,he was gay.

    I doubt he thought of himself as “gay” – rather, he probably had a “girlfriend” in jail who just happened to be male, actual XX type females not being available. I’m blanking on the cute name for it, but this phenomenon used to have a name at Seven Sister’s colleges, something like “lesbian while undergraduate”. Afghan warlords who keep bachi bazi boys don’t think of themselves as gay either.

    • Replies: @Flip
    LUG- "Lesbian until graduation"
  122. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thank you for asking.
    Actual formulation was given by me to her when she was in High School:
    "If I will die before you finish your education,
    you must take Linear Algebra course, and then do whatever you want with your life".
    She successfully took it, and now I feel free to die.
    I believe it helped her understand better the idea of superposition of electronic orbitals in quantum theory of molecular structure, when she was
    at Dept. of Chemistry and Chem. Biology of Cornell U. (undergrad. program.)
    Nowadays I am not so sure in the wisdom of that advice.
    May be Linear Algebra helped her to operate Atomic Force Microscope
    in the study of cell membrane of placenta as anti-viral barrier; may be not.

    Thanks, interesting. Did she take the course while in high school, community college, or as a part-time student at a local Uni? It sounded like you wanted her to take it before choosing where to go full time.

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thanks for asking.
    Our daughter took Linear Algebra course twice: first, while still in High School, she took it as summer course at local University, and second time inside the general "mathematical" course at Cornell U. (was it called calculus ?). I attended one particular lecture by Professor, who taught it with much better English pronunciation then mine; still slight French accent could be detected. I was indignant that instead of honest terminology: function (be it of one or several variables) he used the term "mapping". Quite evident Bourbaki-style way to describe simple things. But I kept my indignation to myself.

    There was a particular event in my interaction with our daughter. She was probably 13 y.o. at the time.
    I was describing to her the notion of prime numbers as the ones which can not be decomposed into product of other integers.
    Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic (FTA), that any integer may be presented as product of primes, and that such decomposition is unique (up to the order of prime factors),
    has non-trivial content: uniqueness.
    Non-trivial counter-example exists: a mathematical construction of 'quasi-numbers', i.e. integer numbers of the form (1+4*k), with 'k' being usual integers. For example: 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, ... .
    Product of two 'quasi-numbers' is a 'quasi-number' as well, e.g. 5*9 =45, 21*21 = 441.
    Actually the row of 'quasi-numbers' listed above, except 45, are all 'quasi-primes'. In regular arithmetic 21 = 3*7, i.e. 21 is a composite number, not a prime one. But the factors of 21, i.e. 3 and 7, do not belong to set of 'quasi-numbers'.
    Here is violation of "uniqueness" part of FTA: 441 === 21*21 === 49*9, no uniqueness of decomposition into 'quasi-primes'.
    I was singing this song to our daughter, and suddenly she tells me: 21 is not 'quasi-prime',
    since 21 === (-3)*(-7), and both (-3) and (-7) are 'quasi-numbers' (with k=-1 and k=-3, respectively).
    It was like a bolt of a lightning for me. Only on the next day I imposed the condition k >=0, and was able to continue.
  123. @Mr. Anon
    When half of society's engineers are women, society will do half the engineering it once did.

    You can’t be serious.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Can be and am so.
  124. @res
    Greg, do you have data for Caltech? There was a controversy about this in their school newspaper in 2010. This link gives an excerpt: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/10473002/#Comment_10473002
    Their link to the original article is broken, but the full issue of the newspaper (this was a front page story) is available at http://caltechcampuspubs.library.caltech.edu/1927/1/2010_05_03_113_22.pdf
    The administration claimed they were not engaging in affirmative action and it was just increased recruitment. Color me skeptical.

    At MIT the big change was in the 1980s. From about 23% of undergrads to about 34%. See Chart 1 in http://web.mit.edu/ir/reports/MIT_Gender_Report_5-15-03.pdf
    Another uptick in the late 1990s from about 35-40%. Currently about 44% I think.

    Maybe these schools are strategizing that in order to continue to attract the best male students they need to have more eligible females on campus?

  125. @Formerly CARealist
    My son also got rejected by the top schools he applied to, despite being valedictorian, high SAT, several AP exams, unique extracurriculars, community service, a job in the major he was applying for, and plenty of awards.

    But like all the other high-achieving, top-school rejects, he'll do quite well in life and I won't have to pay the outrageous tuition.

    Let's face it: white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It's going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.

    >white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It’s going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.

    Those that survive, sure

  126. @AnotherDad
    My best friend's daughter is at Caltech now.

    Caltech and MIT are excellent schools for a girl to attend *if*:

    1) The girl is *really* interested in math or the sciences, not just smart, vaguely interested and\or pushed in that direction.

    and

    2) The girl is interested in\open to having a nerd marriage.

    But if she's just a smart girl who wants (or is pushed) to go to name college and doesn't really have an absolute passion for STEM, then it will be a miserable experience--struggling studying stuff you don't love while competing against more talented boys, whom you find nerdy and unappealing.

    My friend's daughter is enjoying it. But she really *wanted* to do physics. And my friend is a genuine smart guy--40th all India on the JEE in his year--and the daughter, not surprisingly, is a smart cookie as well.

    Regarding #2, first of all, in a place like Boston/Cambridge there are a million colleges so your dating prospects are not confined to MIT men. There are lots of colleges in the LA area if not in Pasadena itself, so I would expect the same at Cal Tech.

    2nd, the MIT students I have met, male and female, are surprisingly NOT nerdy even though very bright. Because they get to pick the cream of the crop of nerds, they tend to go for nerds +, nerds that also exhibit some flare and skill beyond pure nerddom. The big complain of Asian nerds (and it is true) is that if you are a pure nerd with nothing more on your resume MIT may not be interested in you no matter that you have 2400 SATs.

    3rd, marriage at the undergrad level is quite rare at places like MIT – college is no longer where you go to meet your husband.

    #1 almost goes without saying. If you are not really into math/science and not happy to spend a lot of time doing math problems then there are far better places for you. People tend to look at lists of colleges and figure out which is the highest ranked one they or their kids could get into but what’s really important is matching the place to your personality and interests. On paper rankings, MIT and Duke have similar rankings (at least from US News) but in real life they are very different places catering to different crowds.

    • Replies: @res

    The big complain of Asian nerds (and it is true) is that if you are a pure nerd with nothing more on your resume MIT may not be interested in you no matter that you have 2400 SATs.
     
    This group might be the one most shafted by the SAT recentering. Pre-1995 perfect SAT scores were rare enough (~10/year) that you could discriminate on SAT scores among the smart nerds (less true for math alone because the ceiling was lower than for verbal then). The white equivalent group is not far behind in the shafting (especially for flyover outliers who don't have as much local competition or high end HS academic opportunity), but my sense is right now for otherwise equivalent students Asians have it worse in college admissions.
  127. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    A complicating factor that Bill P fails to account for in assessing his daughter’s prospects is noted in the classic lament of MIT coeds:

    “BU to bed, Wellesley to wed, MIT girls to talk to.”

    Though I deviated from the formula a bit by marrying a Harvard girl.

  128. @Anon
    Raytheon CEO’s support of the next generation of women leaders also extends to his home

    This CEO might just be talking the necessary PC.

    I worked as a software engineer at Raytheon right out of undergrad in the mid-'80s. Raytheon had plenty of female engineers, well, perhaps 20%. Back then graduating Computer Science classes were 35% or more female. I worked with several at Raytheon and had one female supervisor, all were quite competent. But back then there was a lot of job-hopping. Males and females were lumping to other companies for 25% pay increases, and then some would land back at Raytheon three of four years later.

    All more than competent, but none of these folks, men or women, were Ivy League grads. Mostly all grads from a select ten or so colleges in the greater Boston area. And many of them had fathers that worked or had worked at Raytheon. In fact, Raytheon put bread on the table for four generations of my family. My 92 year old grandmother is still collecting my grandfather's pension and he died 30 years ago!

    “More than 90% of Raytheon’s revenues were obtained from military contracts and, as of 2012, it was the fifth-largest military contractor in the world. As of 2015, it is the third largest defense contractor in the United States by defense revenue.”

    Strong support for diversity and inclusion goes along with the gig.

  129. @Jack D
    Regarding #2, first of all, in a place like Boston/Cambridge there are a million colleges so your dating prospects are not confined to MIT men. There are lots of colleges in the LA area if not in Pasadena itself, so I would expect the same at Cal Tech.

    2nd, the MIT students I have met, male and female, are surprisingly NOT nerdy even though very bright. Because they get to pick the cream of the crop of nerds, they tend to go for nerds +, nerds that also exhibit some flare and skill beyond pure nerddom. The big complain of Asian nerds (and it is true) is that if you are a pure nerd with nothing more on your resume MIT may not be interested in you no matter that you have 2400 SATs.

    3rd, marriage at the undergrad level is quite rare at places like MIT - college is no longer where you go to meet your husband.

    #1 almost goes without saying. If you are not really into math/science and not happy to spend a lot of time doing math problems then there are far better places for you. People tend to look at lists of colleges and figure out which is the highest ranked one they or their kids could get into but what's really important is matching the place to your personality and interests. On paper rankings, MIT and Duke have similar rankings (at least from US News) but in real life they are very different places catering to different crowds.

    The big complain of Asian nerds (and it is true) is that if you are a pure nerd with nothing more on your resume MIT may not be interested in you no matter that you have 2400 SATs.

    This group might be the one most shafted by the SAT recentering. Pre-1995 perfect SAT scores were rare enough (~10/year) that you could discriminate on SAT scores among the smart nerds (less true for math alone because the ceiling was lower than for verbal then). The white equivalent group is not far behind in the shafting (especially for flyover outliers who don’t have as much local competition or high end HS academic opportunity), but my sense is right now for otherwise equivalent students Asians have it worse in college admissions.

    • Replies: @mukat
    MIT gives, or used to give, the option to submit AIME scores, which are quite discriminating.

    Asian-Americans are way ahead of you. Their cram schools provide AIME studying, Chemistry Olympiad studying and opportunities for scientific research with local professors (money under the table?). All of these can discriminate among high SAT scorers.

    The final frontier for Asian-Americans will be class participation, as Steve has noted. They've got to find a way to fake it and make the admissions office believe that they will be as voluble, verbal and argumentative as Jews. Debate club and Model UN don't quite cut it.

  130. @Rod1963
    Yes I remember reading that stat some years back that, a college education will kill a woman's reproductive chances. Kiss of death so to speak.

    I can understand why, the woman buys into the meaningful corporate career crap put out by feminist and corporate PR firms, likes the money she's bringing in and then she puts off being a mommy until it's too late or worse, ends up a old maid who didn't get picked by her sell by date.

    And if they do have kids. it's generally one. End of bloodline for both parents.

    Slightly OT: I just wonder if this is the mechanism so to speak that is responsible for the cold death of whites and Western Civ.

    “I just wonder if this is the mechanism so to speak that is responsible for the cold death of whites and Western Civ.”

    The pill and college women pursuing “careers” instead of raising children are both important factors in our decay. Demography is destiny.

  131. @Yak-15
    In the future white men will be looked at as a mythical lost civilization like Atlantis. People really did all those things? Wow!!

    I’ve been highly tempted to write a story much like that.

    “How did the Ancients die out if they were so advanced?”

    “They killed themselves out of self-hate.”

  132. @Anonymous
    Totally farking insane for a society to fill its STEM niches with women.

    It's another NWO attack.

    Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman.

    Women (as a group) will never be responsible for advancing any STEM field. The New World Order is promoting women as a group to supplant the men and retard the rate of advancement. Duh.

    I realize it's difficult for all of you younger Americans to grok but the NWO hates your guts and wants to literally crash your civilization.

    Getting your daughter into MIT gets the George Soros seal of approval. Don't do it.

    “Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman.”

    Than any woman? Bull. If that were true, then in a typical class the best women would be less promising than the worst guy. I’ve been taking or teaching university level physics for 21 years, and this is simply not the case.

    A small but real percentage of those with Caltech & MIT level STEM talent are women. Probably about 10% of the total in physics. Less in math, more in biology. Certainly efforts to push that number toward parity through differential admissions standards are misguided and have many unfortunate consequences. Why not just admit them based on sex-blind criteria and leave them alone?

    “Women (as a group) will never be responsible for advancing any STEM field.”

    You really should spend more time in a molecular biology lab.

    Sometimes reading the comments of this blog is painful.

    • Agree: keuril
    • Replies: @Opinionator

    “Women (as a group) will never be responsible for advancing any STEM field.”

    You really should spend more time in a molecular biology lab.

     

    Care to elaborate?
  133. @Jack D
    I doubt he thought of himself as "gay" - rather, he probably had a "girlfriend" in jail who just happened to be male, actual XX type females not being available. I'm blanking on the cute name for it, but this phenomenon used to have a name at Seven Sister's colleges, something like "lesbian while undergraduate". Afghan warlords who keep bachi bazi boys don't think of themselves as gay either.

    LUG- “Lesbian until graduation”

  134. @BB753
    If you want your daughters to marry nice guys and have healthy kids, don't send them to college at all. Female college graduates seldom reproduce.

    An overgeneralization, to be sure. Send your daughter to a Catholic college or BYU, and there is a very decent chance they will graduate with an engagement ring.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Send your daughter to a Catholic college or BYU, and there is a very decent chance they will graduate with an engagement ring.
     
    That would require her to be a faithful Catholic* or Mormon.

    *I am assuming you are referring to a real Catholic college rather than nominal ones such as Georgetown and Notre Dame.
  135. @Jack D
    I don't know what the #'s are for CalTech but at MIT, even though these departments exist (mainly to give elective courses), the # of students who actually major in humanities is tiny. Also MIT has a set curriculum for freshman so even if you are a humanities major you still have to take physics, calculus, etc.

    MIT's defense, for what it is worth, is that they reject STILL reject 6 out of 7 female applicants (as well as 15 out of 16 male applicants) so that the ones that they let in are still highly qualified. As a thought experiment, imagine that some generous billionaire funded new classroom, dorms, etc so that MIT could admit 2 out of 16 male applicants - they would reach into the reject pile and take their #2 choice for each slot. Would the quality of MIT students go down significantly?

    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT - the final GPA's are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate:

    http://www.onlineethics.org/CMS/workplace/workplacediv/abstractsindex/perfmathsci.aspx

    The real question is what sort of business turns away 94% of its potential customers. Part of having a hot club is turning people away at the rope line, but bouncing 15 out of 16 is ridiculous. Why haven't they expanded their enrollment while the US population has doubled?

    What's interesting at MIT is that even though the overall class is 45/55 female/male, there's quite a disparity between departments - somewhere I'll find the chart. Bio more female, engineering more male, etc.

    The numbers of women at MIT who go into biology, or other, relatively non-mathematical disciplines is quite high compared to the men. That always seems to be the deciding factor. One might say that it means women are more interested in social things, and biology may seem more social, but I don’t particularly see how doing experiments with, say, RNA is more people oriented than full time software development, or doing electrical engineering, physics, or math. I do see how RNA experimentation is typically going to require much less use of essentially mathematical/logical techniques.

    I happened recently to watch a few online lectures from MIT in relatively introductory courses in Calculus. I was frankly struck by how, well, dumb many of the questions were. I’d say that the good majority of these questions were from women and minorities — often, indeed, minority women. If these “marginalized” individuals were supposedly intimidated by “stereotype threat” or some other thing from asking questions, it certainly didn’t show in the lectures I watched. The densest questions were asked with no sense of embarrassment — in fact, as it seemed to me, with some real entitlement — and with the professor routinely rewarding the question with a response like “That’s a very good question!…”

    The irony of the decision at MIT to bring in half their students from either the pool of women or of minorities is that it deepens the divide between the Affirmative Action students and white or Asian males, and in both directions. The women and minorities are of course less qualified than they would be if they weren’t accepted due to Affirmative Action. But the white and Asian males are at the same time only more qualified on average than they had been before: only the top half of them are accepted, as compared to previous years.

    I expect that this would make the gap in mathematical/logical abilities to be pretty striking to all.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Even in the freshman core they offer various versions of the intro physics course to fulfill the physics requirement, so the students begin to self sort even freshman year and after that even more. You are not going to find a lot of those minority females in an advanced physics or math course. Tune into an Open Courseware course that is at a more advanced level and those women will be nowhere to be found.

    MIT is a fairly big place and while you can't hide out in black studies, some of the "courses" (majors) are more challenging/quantitative than others. Even the dumbest minority female MIT student is not all that dumb by societal standards (esp. for minorities) but clearly they are in a different league than the budding Feynman types you find at the top of the class in the hardest courses.
  136. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    Bill. I am saying this nicely, but it looks like you are looking for a young hunting/camping partner, not a son-in-law. You’d probably be better off just buying yourself a good hunting dog. #BlackLabsMatter.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  137. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    Last season American Ninja Warrior started doing intercollegiate team competitions. One of the big rivalries was the UC team against the UCLA team. But surprisingly the team from MIT almost won it all. The winners were from some mid-Western state university with a huge enrollment but little MIT managed to finish second So it seems you can have brains and athletic ability too.

    The Ninja obstacles, of course, derive from the original Japanese TV series so there is a lot of emphasis on agility and grace but upper body strength also matters.

  138. @Jim Christian
    6% this, 6 % that. THAT leaves 84% something else. Jesus, Steve, could you connect the dots, please?

    Jim, they accepted just 6% of all males who applied and just 16% of all the females who applied. Those two numbers combined gave them a full freshman class. You can just write #BlackLivesMatter 100 times on your application and you will be accepted.

  139. @SportsFan
    Babson boys come to Wellesley College (in pickup trucks). Wellesley and Babson colleges are barely a mile apart, you can walk from one to the other in 15-20 minutes on the crosstown path. More importantly for the host, both border golf courses, though their architecture looks so-so to me (I'm no expert, though).
    I know plenty of MIT and Wellesley College students and grads. Most are nice, kind, well-adjusted people, very smart and hard-working, of course, and some are even athletic and outdoorsy. But they're not the type that end up in the news. An attractive white female would do extremely well at MIT in terms of marriageable partner selection.

    SportsFan, so sad to hear that the students are good and kind and well adjusted. We need to get some antifas and BLMs in the mix to F**k that up. Let’s all get together at 4:07 pm and discuss this.

  140. @Yak-15
    In the future white men will be looked at as a mythical lost civilization like Atlantis. People really did all those things? Wow!!

    they will be too busy looking for roots and twigs

  141. @Jack D
    There is an article in today's NYTimes about flying cars (watch the video, kind of cool - it looks like an oversized quadcopter drone that's big enough for a man to ride on- actually more of a flying motorcycle than a flying car. The video has no sound so you don't hear that they sound like a thousand angry bees).

    But anyway, there's a quote in the article which neatly sums up all SWPLs, if you substitute just about anything for "flying car":


    I love the idea of being able to go out into my backyard and hop into my flying car,” said Brad Templeton, a Silicon Valley entrepreneur who has served as a consultant on Google’s self-driving project. “I hate the idea of my next-door neighbor having one.”
     
    Having a flying car/ Ivy League degree, etc., etc. is only fun insofar as others don't.

    JackD, Years ago there was a very prominent Buffalonian, Hazzard Campbell (cool name or what), who developed an airplane that steered like a car. Unfortunately, he hit some power lines while attempting to land and was killed. Their estate is now the very nice Crag Burn golf course in East Aurora, NY.

  142. @Peter Akuleyev
    Babson has a lot of international students, especially rich Indians and Middle Eastern kids, it never struck me as being all that preppy. Babson grads do pretty well, but it still doesn't have anywhere near the social cachet of MIT.

    It’s become less so as it’s taken an increasingly-larger percentage of international students, but its student body has historically been made up of old-money rich boys who didn’t quite have the grades or ability to make the cut at Harvard, or Dartmouth, or Williams, or Tufts, or BU. (The internationals are of course even richer).

  143. Caltech and MIT are great for people that can get in and excel. I ran into a young man that used to do some work for me. He graduated from the local community college, ECC, taking their Utility Grid program. This June will be his second year with National Grid, our electric provider. In his probationary year he earned $64, plus benefits. This year, his first full year as a lineman, he is on track to earn $100k, plus full benefits.He is 22 years old as is his girl friend, who is drop dead gorgeous, and an RN. They plan to marry next year. There are still options for those who don’t want a four year degree. His brother just started with NG, so there are jobs.

    • Replies: @Another Canadian
    My nephew got into the Power Line technician co-op program at a college here in Ontario. For a guy that is not graduate degree EE material at Waterloo or U of T it's a good alternative to a bachelor's EE degree. Union job with good salary and defined-benefit pension, no cube farms, need to be athletic and if you're willing to work overtime you can make a bundle. It's a 24 month program with no breaks so you can be earning real money quickly without a lot of debt or having to spend time looking at the world through the diversity-inclusion lens.
  144. O/T

    Fanatical positive eugenicist @Steve_Sailer spotted at the #ScienceMarch, claims Trump will create master race of golf course designers

    https://mobile.twitter.com/gollyvud/status/855901192253321217

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    But not until after Trump completes the system of German Idealism that Kant couldn't.

    First things first, people!

  145. What’s the breakdown by sex of iSteve commenters? iSteve readers?

    I’d estimate that the commenter ratio is 9:1 male:female. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But one might wonder why the numbers are not closer.

  146. At my university (in the U.S.) the word is that graduate
    enrollments by students from India are expected to decline
    by 70% within a short period of time, due to Trump’s visa
    policy, etc Of course, everyone knows that students come
    here from India and China partly to gain a foothold in America,
    and then to somehow get permanent residence or just overstay
    their visas. Hundreds of thousands of the Chinese and East Indians
    are in the U.S. illegally. I wonder if a similar decline is expected
    for students from China

  147. @black sea
    I onced worked with a woman whose daughter had enrolled in MIT. Dad was a physics professor and mom was no slouch herself, so MIT seemed like a sound choice. A few years into her program, however, the girl had a nervous collapse over the workload, dropped out, moved back into her parents' house, and started waiting tables.

    OK, the parents thought, she needs some time to decompress, kick back, and get her thoughts in order. But the waitressing phase seemed to drag on indefinitely. The parents realized that MIT had been an overreach, but assumed that she would transer to another school. The daughter, however, wasn't having it. She wasn't interested at that point in studying anything anywhere in any school that called itself a university or institute of . . . . whatever.

    Don't know how it all worked out.

    My college career was different. No one in my family expected me to go to college. My uncle used to make fun of me. But I liked college.

    One reason I liked it was probably because I was so much smarter than all the rest. This wasn’t just my inflated self opinion. I was the best math student in school. The best chemistry student and the best history student. I was also the best economics student and the best English student. I was also the captain of the debate team. I was the co-editor of the school paper and the vice President of the Student assembly. I was on the varsity basketball team. I supported myself as a tutor in math and chemistry. I played bridge for money (I was school champ)

    The college was George Mason (not MIT or Caltech). Except for foreign languages I was the best student in school. I had not just joined extracurricular activities – I began many of them. There were others – but I don’t want to appear immodest.

    The point is my first couple years in college were very pleasant. Can you guess my secret?

    It isn’t all just brains although I’m smart enough. I’m not, for example, as smart as Steve or Gregory Cochran or several others you run into on the Web (some in this thread). I went to grad school on a full academic scholarship and won several competitive academic fellowships. I really enjoyed school but in retrospect I realize I was never hard pressed very hard in either the classroom or on the campus.

    I’m sure that if I had come from a more competitive family and circle of friends I might have gotten further in the business world – but maybe not. Is it really important to suffer in your youth? Looking back those years all strike me as ‘Golden Years’ (like the duet about the University of Heidelberg in “The Student Prince”).

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    So what's your secret?
  148. There were others – but I don’t want to appear immodest.

    You may want to consider reading your posts aloud before you hit “Publish.”

    • LOL: Truth
  149. @Anonymous Nephew
    A thought - could a girl not apply for a STEM place at a top college, then half way through term 1 ask to change to the course she actually wants to do (and which she would not have been accepted for because competition)?

    This is an excellent strategy, and the reverse would work great for young men: say on your application that you’re into Anthropology or Women’s Studies (with the extracurriculars and essay to support this kind of thing), then just do Computer Science or Econ, forgetting about your application entirely. Once you’re in, you’re in.

  150. @Anonymous
    O/T

    Fanatical positive eugenicist @Steve_Sailer spotted at the #ScienceMarch, claims Trump will create master race of golf course designers

    https://mobile.twitter.com/gollyvud/status/855901192253321217

    But not until after Trump completes the system of German Idealism that Kant couldn’t.

    First things first, people!

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Trump's not much of an idea man.

    Maybe he should keep it American and complete the implementation of William James' Pragmatism?

    Bullshit for the master bullshitter.
  151. @res

    The big complain of Asian nerds (and it is true) is that if you are a pure nerd with nothing more on your resume MIT may not be interested in you no matter that you have 2400 SATs.
     
    This group might be the one most shafted by the SAT recentering. Pre-1995 perfect SAT scores were rare enough (~10/year) that you could discriminate on SAT scores among the smart nerds (less true for math alone because the ceiling was lower than for verbal then). The white equivalent group is not far behind in the shafting (especially for flyover outliers who don't have as much local competition or high end HS academic opportunity), but my sense is right now for otherwise equivalent students Asians have it worse in college admissions.

    MIT gives, or used to give, the option to submit AIME scores, which are quite discriminating.

    Asian-Americans are way ahead of you. Their cram schools provide AIME studying, Chemistry Olympiad studying and opportunities for scientific research with local professors (money under the table?). All of these can discriminate among high SAT scorers.

    The final frontier for Asian-Americans will be class participation, as Steve has noted. They’ve got to find a way to fake it and make the admissions office believe that they will be as voluble, verbal and argumentative as Jews. Debate club and Model UN don’t quite cut it.

  152. In my department – I won’t mention what
    it is but it is highly technical – we graduate a girl
    with a bachelor’s degree about once every 10
    years. Some come here at 17-18, full of
    competitive spirit, already brainwashed by feminist
    dogma, to see if they can outdo the boys, and
    they inevitably fail. It’s heartbreaking to watch
    but if they want to change majors to something
    more people-oriented that’s fine with me. But the
    chair and the dean don’t buy that because they need
    to fill the enrollment quotas, and those departments
    that girls like (e.g., social sciences) thrive. Others
    suffer from low enrollments. The fact that the female:male
    ratio at present is approaching 60:40 doesn’t help. Back
    in the ’60s the ratio was closer to 40:60, and that’s when
    universities were dominated by science and engineering
    departments – science and engineering were still cool.
    The word “nerd” wasn’t much in use. You were admired
    as a genius if you majored in physics or electrical engineering.

    Overall, the saying these days is that STEM (science, etc)
    disciplines are like strawberry picking – best left to
    foreigners, esp. at graduate level. Back in the (“greed is good”)
    ’80s, American students left science and engineering for finance, etc in
    a mass exodus, and they never came back. At the Ph.D. level
    about 50% of STEM degrees these days are awarded to foreign-born
    students

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    In my department – I won’t mention what
    it is but it is highly technical
    – we graduate a girl
    with a bachelor’s degree about once every 10
    years.
     
    What's the big deal? I can understand if you don't want to mention the name of your institution but why so coy about the area of study?
  153. @Opinionator

    Also, the main purpose of this study was simply to show that differences on the SAT I Math subtest are not predictive of performance in STEM.
     
    A surprising result, no?

    Here’s what the study says:

    Some have argued that the equal level of GPA’s may be partly due to the fact that women major in areas other than engineering or science (the former being considered easier majors than the latter) more often than men do. However, at the university studied, all students are required to pass a minimum of eight science courses and more than three-fourths of each class of women continued to major in science. When GPA’s were compared by major, out of each class only one major had a statistically significant difference between men’s and women’s GPAs.

    It’s useful to think about what these statistics are likely hiding (interestingly I don’t see the sort of detailed breakdowns in the table provided that would make the issue apparent).

    It’s certainly obvious from other data that women at MIT are far more likely to major in biology or the life sciences than in the heavily mathematical parts of engineering or the sciences. It may be that on average the women who remain in the more mathematical subjects aren’t much different in GPA from the men — but if the proportion of women who go into those subjects is much, much lower, it hardly entails that the Math SAT has no predictive value.

    Women of course do “overperform” their Math SAT when it comes to GPA. This seems to be true in every subject: they are generally more conscientious about such things — or, to put a different spin on it — they are more concerned about the external validation GPA gives them (men often focus only on the subject they really care about, and don’t tend to give so much weight to grades).

    The real question is: what does relative performance on the SAT mean in a career? My guess is that its impact is felt much more there. At bare minimum, men are pretty much everywhere outperforming women in STEM fields, especially when math is important, but even when it isn’t.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Thanks
  154. @Formerly CARealist
    My son also got rejected by the top schools he applied to, despite being valedictorian, high SAT, several AP exams, unique extracurriculars, community service, a job in the major he was applying for, and plenty of awards.

    But like all the other high-achieving, top-school rejects, he'll do quite well in life and I won't have to pay the outrageous tuition.

    Let's face it: white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It's going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.

    Let’s face it: white kids have to work harder outside the spotlight. It’s going to make them even better and stronger in their adult years.

    That’s what I was often told as an explanation/rationalization for bald-faced discrimination. The problem is that those outside the spotlight learn from those in it. They’ve learned to discriminate from their betters. I’ve known talented white men who never did find a place.

  155. @BB753
    If you want your daughters to marry nice guys and have healthy kids, don't send them to college at all. Female college graduates seldom reproduce.

    Where do spouses from half-decent backgrounds meet in your world? The military? A Mennonite quilting bee? High school? Seems like a worse selection there.

    Perhaps college doesn’t lead to coupling/marriage in the northeast or California but it does for 60-75 percent of students in flyover country. Most of my social circle met their spouse in college. The few couples I know who met in high school or at work have pretty rocky marriages.

    • Replies: @BB753
    I see many downsides to college for girls:

    -that's the place young women become liberals and feminists
    -Instead of looking for a future husband, they might spend their college years experimenting and sleeping around. This possibility is very high these days.
    -Even if they meet their future husband in college, it doesn't guarantee future kids. It might mean just one, with luck.
    -They lose their prime child-bearing years even if somehow drawn to forming large families.
    -They get burdened with a large debt that usually delays raising a family.

  156. @Steve Sailer
    But not until after Trump completes the system of German Idealism that Kant couldn't.

    First things first, people!

    Trump’s not much of an idea man.

    Maybe he should keep it American and complete the implementation of William James’ Pragmatism?

    Bullshit for the master bullshitter.

  157. @Opinionator
    I don't see the problem with the first prong of your "double problem." The "great students" who are rejected by the top-ranked schools go on to attend the next tier of schools. It's not as if the faculty at these next tier schools are chopped liver.

    But faculty quality means pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. People aren’t fighting to attend Ivies because the professors are great — it’s because the students are.

    And no matter what any BS study tells you, the difference between students at HYP and students at second-tier schools (Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is tremendous. Not in terms of IQ, but in terms of everything else that matters in life.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    the difference between students at HYP and students at second-tier schools (Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is tremendous. Not in terms of IQ, but in terms of everything else that matters in life.
     
    I believe that your sense is (at least) a decade out of date in that regard.

    The idea that a thumb or two could be placed on the scales in favor or women/minorities has become so widespread that the scale is overloaded with thumbs. It's ok, they tell themselves, instead of the top 20% of straight white males, we'll get the top 10%, or now due to all the thumbs, the top 5%. We'll still be fine.

    The problem is that the 15% that was crowded out turns out to contain the bulk, and in some cases the entirety, of the best and brightest. The 5% still getting through are the connected, the donors, and the legacies. Not the best.
    , @Opinionator

    People aren’t fighting to attend Ivies because the professors are great — it’s because the students are.
     
    Okay, and these policies presumably make the Ivy League student bodies less great and divert quality into other schools--where the faculty quality is not noticeable different.

    How is that not a good overall outcome for the country? It helps distribute human capital with other institutions and parts of the country! Do we really want even more raw talent concentrated in the Northeast at Ivy League institutions? For crying out loud...
  158. @PiltdownMan
    While applying to colleges a couple of years ago, my first-born pointed out that the overall acceptance rate at Pomona College is similar to that at Caltech—to within a decimal place. I'll post links if I can find them again after all this time.

    Caltech is ranked #1 in the world by the UK Times Educational Supplement, for what these things are worth, though the TES is a very prestigious news publication in the field of education.

    On the other hand, I've heard from three people who got their Ph.Ds. in engineering in the last decade from Stanford and Berkeley that Caltech is no longer what it used to be, four decades ago.

    I wonder what the truth is?

    Caltech no longer has many Nobel Prize
    winners, people like Feynman or Gell-Mann,
    so the bloom is off the rose. Also a couple of Caltech
    physicists participated in the invention of string
    theories which turned out to be a dud. Even John
    Horgan (Scientific American) had a column recently,
    “How Physics Lost Its Fizz.” The low-hanging fruit
    has already been plucked, and so these days physics,
    chemistry, and math are no longer very exciting.
    Nobody wants to use the word “stagnation,” but
    that’s what it is. Many American-born students these
    days think that the Universe is not terribly interesting.
    They are surprised that Asian students are still interested
    in a field like physics which they describe as “hard, dull, and useless.”

    • Replies: @oddsbodkins
    Caltech physics has spent the last fifty years investing in both the theoretical and experimental ends of the LIGO experiment. It has paid off handsomely and the Nobels are in the bag, barring a sudden death or a stupid priority dispute. But Nobels are a terrible way to measure the science prowess of a school anyway. That's what academies are for.
  159. @Anonymous Nephew
    A thought - could a girl not apply for a STEM place at a top college, then half way through term 1 ask to change to the course she actually wants to do (and which she would not have been accepted for because competition)?

    In order to make its diversity quota, an elite university will admit an unprepared girl who shows a strong interest in STEM, knowing that she will eventually have to change her major.

    From The Only Woman in the Room: Why Science is Still a Boy’s Club by Eileen Pollack:

    A friend of mine in the Yale admissions office told me that if an applicant of color wrote on her application that she wanted to study physics even though her transcript revealed a thin background in science and math, the college would accept her and assume the system would do its job and persuade her that she belonged in another field. My friend wishes the admissions office would be honest and say, “Look, we’ll let you in, but if you want to major in physics, you’ll need to do boot camp the summer before you come, or spend a remedial year catching up.” But Yale is too conscious of its status to do any such thing. “We’re Yale!” my friend mimics. “We don’t have remedial anything.”

  160. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    They aren’t likely to earn enough to support a family of any size unless she works too. Unless they’re also college graduates, but that type of guy getting through college is mostly an agricultural kind of fellow.

  161. @BB753
    If you want your daughters to marry nice guys and have healthy kids, don't send them to college at all. Female college graduates seldom reproduce.

    Not quite true.

    https://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/the-marginal-child-in-2014/

    This isn’t filtered for college attendance, but birth rates for women aged 30-40 (a close proxy) have been increasing for about a decade steadily and consistently.

    A college degree doesn’t impact fertility like it used to. Even advanced degrees have less of an effect than you’d think.

    People, especially college-educated ones, are moving into a fertility pattern of marriage in late 20s/early 30s and 2-4 children, among married couples.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I'm not sure if having later birth is a close proxy for college attendance. It could simply be the overall trend; my wife, for example, doesn't have a college degree but we didn't try for children until she was 26 due to income concerns. She was bugging me the whole time, though; I think if I had not married her when she was 20, we would have delayed children even longer.

    My experience is indeed that college degrees tend to discourage birth. Quite a few DINK friends.

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down's Syndrome and other birth defects in children.

  162. @Rod1963
    Yes I remember reading that stat some years back that, a college education will kill a woman's reproductive chances. Kiss of death so to speak.

    I can understand why, the woman buys into the meaningful corporate career crap put out by feminist and corporate PR firms, likes the money she's bringing in and then she puts off being a mommy until it's too late or worse, ends up a old maid who didn't get picked by her sell by date.

    And if they do have kids. it's generally one. End of bloodline for both parents.

    Slightly OT: I just wonder if this is the mechanism so to speak that is responsible for the cold death of whites and Western Civ.

    College-educated women are increasingly the ones having children, plural.

    There are real obstacles to family formation, and one of them is making up stuff about how getting a BA or BS means no babies for a young woman.

  163. @S. Anonyia
    Where do spouses from half-decent backgrounds meet in your world? The military? A Mennonite quilting bee? High school? Seems like a worse selection there.

    Perhaps college doesn't lead to coupling/marriage in the northeast or California but it does for 60-75 percent of students in flyover country. Most of my social circle met their spouse in college. The few couples I know who met in high school or at work have pretty rocky marriages.

    I see many downsides to college for girls:

    -that’s the place young women become liberals and feminists
    -Instead of looking for a future husband, they might spend their college years experimenting and sleeping around. This possibility is very high these days.
    -Even if they meet their future husband in college, it doesn’t guarantee future kids. It might mean just one, with luck.
    -They lose their prime child-bearing years even if somehow drawn to forming large families.
    -They get burdened with a large debt that usually delays raising a family.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Among other things, I assist students with doctorate work. The only thing I note in specific is that quite a few girls despise college yet feel like they have to complete it, while writing basically useless essays and dissertations on ISLAMOPHOBIA IN FRANCE and FEMINISM AS PART OF SURREALIST FEMALE ARTISTS.

    By and large, I don't see this as improving their career potential either.

    On the other hand, being a housewife seems too low-status for many of them*, and trying to find a job seems to hopeless. College it has to be.


    * certainly not helped by the fact that boys expect them to work. When we were dating, I remember my would-be wife assuring me "I'll work, don't work" and I told her "I don't expect you to work, I do expect you to obey." She still thinks her family thinks badly of her.

  164. @Opinionator
    May I ask why that is a big concern of yours?

    I shall skip the answer to that question. It is too personal.
    Thank you for all your nice words.
    Your friendly and truly,
    I.f.f.U.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Okay. Thank you.
  165. @Renault
    But faculty quality means pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. People aren't fighting to attend Ivies because the professors are great -- it's because the students are.

    And no matter what any BS study tells you, the difference between students at HYP and students at second-tier schools (Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is tremendous. Not in terms of IQ, but in terms of everything else that matters in life.

    the difference between students at HYP and students at second-tier schools (Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is tremendous. Not in terms of IQ, but in terms of everything else that matters in life.

    I believe that your sense is (at least) a decade out of date in that regard.

    The idea that a thumb or two could be placed on the scales in favor or women/minorities has become so widespread that the scale is overloaded with thumbs. It’s ok, they tell themselves, instead of the top 20% of straight white males, we’ll get the top 10%, or now due to all the thumbs, the top 5%. We’ll still be fine.

    The problem is that the 15% that was crowded out turns out to contain the bulk, and in some cases the entirety, of the best and brightest. The 5% still getting through are the connected, the donors, and the legacies. Not the best.

    • Replies: @Opinionator

    The problem is that the 15% that was crowded out turns out to contain the bulk, and in some cases the entirety, of the best and brightest.
     
    That isn't a "problem." Over time, other schools will be more competitive with the Top 10 schools because the intrinsic quality of the former's student body will be relatively improved.

    THAT IS A GOOD THING if you believe too much power in this country is concentrated in the Top 10 and their networks.
  166. @The Practical Conservative
    Not quite true.

    https://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/the-marginal-child-in-2014/

    This isn't filtered for college attendance, but birth rates for women aged 30-40 (a close proxy) have been increasing for about a decade steadily and consistently.

    A college degree doesn't impact fertility like it used to. Even advanced degrees have less of an effect than you'd think.

    People, especially college-educated ones, are moving into a fertility pattern of marriage in late 20s/early 30s and 2-4 children, among married couples.

    I’m not sure if having later birth is a close proxy for college attendance. It could simply be the overall trend; my wife, for example, doesn’t have a college degree but we didn’t try for children until she was 26 due to income concerns. She was bugging me the whole time, though; I think if I had not married her when she was 20, we would have delayed children even longer.

    My experience is indeed that college degrees tend to discourage birth. Quite a few DINK friends.

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down’s Syndrome and other birth defects in children.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Was your wife was bugging you to go ahead and try to have children earlier?
    , @Opinionator
    Do you consider 26 to be "having later birth"?
    , @snorlax

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down’s Syndrome and other birth defects in children.
     
    It's probably a wash though, because college-educated women are way more likely to abort a DS baby.
    , @The Practical Conservative
    The higher risk is after 35, not at 30-35. Later birth is a close proxy according to the data. Non-college moms have a kid early on, typically out of wedlock and sometimes one later, often within marriage on average.

    Married mothers tend towards having 2-4 starting around 26-28.

    It's a mixed bag, there is a steady decline in first births, but once married people bite the bullet and have a first kid, they are increasingly having a second, third or fourth as the marriage goes on.
  167. @BB753
    I see many downsides to college for girls:

    -that's the place young women become liberals and feminists
    -Instead of looking for a future husband, they might spend their college years experimenting and sleeping around. This possibility is very high these days.
    -Even if they meet their future husband in college, it doesn't guarantee future kids. It might mean just one, with luck.
    -They lose their prime child-bearing years even if somehow drawn to forming large families.
    -They get burdened with a large debt that usually delays raising a family.

    Among other things, I assist students with doctorate work. The only thing I note in specific is that quite a few girls despise college yet feel like they have to complete it, while writing basically useless essays and dissertations on ISLAMOPHOBIA IN FRANCE and FEMINISM AS PART OF SURREALIST FEMALE ARTISTS.

    By and large, I don’t see this as improving their career potential either.

    On the other hand, being a housewife seems too low-status for many of them*, and trying to find a job seems to hopeless. College it has to be.

    * certainly not helped by the fact that boys expect them to work. When we were dating, I remember my would-be wife assuring me “I’ll work, don’t work” and I told her “I don’t expect you to work, I do expect you to obey.” She still thinks her family thinks badly of her.

    • Replies: @BB753
    “I don’t expect you to work, I do expect you to obey.”

    Man, you're my hero!
    Is your wife Chinese too? I'm told their submissive attitude can be mostly deception the better to hen-peck their husbands.
  168. @Desiderius

    the difference between students at HYP and students at second-tier schools (Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is tremendous. Not in terms of IQ, but in terms of everything else that matters in life.
     
    I believe that your sense is (at least) a decade out of date in that regard.

    The idea that a thumb or two could be placed on the scales in favor or women/minorities has become so widespread that the scale is overloaded with thumbs. It's ok, they tell themselves, instead of the top 20% of straight white males, we'll get the top 10%, or now due to all the thumbs, the top 5%. We'll still be fine.

    The problem is that the 15% that was crowded out turns out to contain the bulk, and in some cases the entirety, of the best and brightest. The 5% still getting through are the connected, the donors, and the legacies. Not the best.

    The problem is that the 15% that was crowded out turns out to contain the bulk, and in some cases the entirety, of the best and brightest.

    That isn’t a “problem.” Over time, other schools will be more competitive with the Top 10 schools because the intrinsic quality of the former’s student body will be relatively improved.

    THAT IS A GOOD THING if you believe too much power in this country is concentrated in the Top 10 and their networks.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Cute theory, but as far as I can tell, the premium that HYPS are worth over the next notch down is larger than ever.
  169. @Daniel Chieh
    I'm not sure if having later birth is a close proxy for college attendance. It could simply be the overall trend; my wife, for example, doesn't have a college degree but we didn't try for children until she was 26 due to income concerns. She was bugging me the whole time, though; I think if I had not married her when she was 20, we would have delayed children even longer.

    My experience is indeed that college degrees tend to discourage birth. Quite a few DINK friends.

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down's Syndrome and other birth defects in children.

    Was your wife was bugging you to go ahead and try to have children earlier?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Yeah, in an ideal world she would be starting on her goal at 20 of having 10 children or something. And yes, 26 is a bit later I would say, but its fine.
  170. @candid_observer
    The numbers of women at MIT who go into biology, or other, relatively non-mathematical disciplines is quite high compared to the men. That always seems to be the deciding factor. One might say that it means women are more interested in social things, and biology may seem more social, but I don't particularly see how doing experiments with, say, RNA is more people oriented than full time software development, or doing electrical engineering, physics, or math. I do see how RNA experimentation is typically going to require much less use of essentially mathematical/logical techniques.

    I happened recently to watch a few online lectures from MIT in relatively introductory courses in Calculus. I was frankly struck by how, well, dumb many of the questions were. I'd say that the good majority of these questions were from women and minorities -- often, indeed, minority women. If these "marginalized" individuals were supposedly intimidated by "stereotype threat" or some other thing from asking questions, it certainly didn't show in the lectures I watched. The densest questions were asked with no sense of embarrassment -- in fact, as it seemed to me, with some real entitlement -- and with the professor routinely rewarding the question with a response like "That's a very good question!..."

    The irony of the decision at MIT to bring in half their students from either the pool of women or of minorities is that it deepens the divide between the Affirmative Action students and white or Asian males, and in both directions. The women and minorities are of course less qualified than they would be if they weren't accepted due to Affirmative Action. But the white and Asian males are at the same time only more qualified on average than they had been before: only the top half of them are accepted, as compared to previous years.

    I expect that this would make the gap in mathematical/logical abilities to be pretty striking to all.

    Even in the freshman core they offer various versions of the intro physics course to fulfill the physics requirement, so the students begin to self sort even freshman year and after that even more. You are not going to find a lot of those minority females in an advanced physics or math course. Tune into an Open Courseware course that is at a more advanced level and those women will be nowhere to be found.

    MIT is a fairly big place and while you can’t hide out in black studies, some of the “courses” (majors) are more challenging/quantitative than others. Even the dumbest minority female MIT student is not all that dumb by societal standards (esp. for minorities) but clearly they are in a different league than the budding Feynman types you find at the top of the class in the hardest courses.

  171. @Opinionator

    Unless your ambition is to die of overwork syndrome in your 30s or find yourself out of a job at 40, it probably doesn’t make sense to get a typical engineering degree.
     
    Do other iSteve readers agree with this?

    I’m a PhD in engineering with 20+ years of experience. In my opinion, there are a lot of crap jobs in engineering. To get a BS in engineering you have to be able to do things like find power series solutions to differential equations. Probably 95% of people will never be able to do that no matter how long they study. But most jobs you can get with a BS involve detail design, making minor modifications to codes someone else conceived and wrote, updating parts lists, salesmanship – stuff a bright high-schooler could do.

    There is interesting work but you have to position yourself to get it, and actively manage your career to stay in it. I’ve passed on two management positions, because I went to college for nine years so I could discover and invent things, not mediate arguments over who gets which cubicle or tell someone he needs to take a shower because he’s stinking up the office.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Thanks
  172. @Renault
    But faculty quality means pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. People aren't fighting to attend Ivies because the professors are great -- it's because the students are.

    And no matter what any BS study tells you, the difference between students at HYP and students at second-tier schools (Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is tremendous. Not in terms of IQ, but in terms of everything else that matters in life.

    People aren’t fighting to attend Ivies because the professors are great — it’s because the students are.

    Okay, and these policies presumably make the Ivy League student bodies less great and divert quality into other schools–where the faculty quality is not noticeable different.

    How is that not a good overall outcome for the country? It helps distribute human capital with other institutions and parts of the country! Do we really want even more raw talent concentrated in the Northeast at Ivy League institutions? For crying out loud…

  173. @Immigrant from former USSR
    I shall skip the answer to that question. It is too personal.
    Thank you for all your nice words.
    Your friendly and truly,
    I.f.f.U.

    Okay. Thank you.

  174. @Daniel Chieh
    I'm not sure if having later birth is a close proxy for college attendance. It could simply be the overall trend; my wife, for example, doesn't have a college degree but we didn't try for children until she was 26 due to income concerns. She was bugging me the whole time, though; I think if I had not married her when she was 20, we would have delayed children even longer.

    My experience is indeed that college degrees tend to discourage birth. Quite a few DINK friends.

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down's Syndrome and other birth defects in children.

    Do you consider 26 to be “having later birth”?

  175. @candid_observer
    Here's what the study says:

    Some have argued that the equal level of GPA's may be partly due to the fact that women major in areas other than engineering or science (the former being considered easier majors than the latter) more often than men do. However, at the university studied, all students are required to pass a minimum of eight science courses and more than three-fourths of each class of women continued to major in science. When GPA's were compared by major, out of each class only one major had a statistically significant difference between men's and women's GPAs.
     
    It's useful to think about what these statistics are likely hiding (interestingly I don't see the sort of detailed breakdowns in the table provided that would make the issue apparent).

    It's certainly obvious from other data that women at MIT are far more likely to major in biology or the life sciences than in the heavily mathematical parts of engineering or the sciences. It may be that on average the women who remain in the more mathematical subjects aren't much different in GPA from the men -- but if the proportion of women who go into those subjects is much, much lower, it hardly entails that the Math SAT has no predictive value.

    Women of course do "overperform" their Math SAT when it comes to GPA. This seems to be true in every subject: they are generally more conscientious about such things -- or, to put a different spin on it -- they are more concerned about the external validation GPA gives them (men often focus only on the subject they really care about, and don't tend to give so much weight to grades).

    The real question is: what does relative performance on the SAT mean in a career? My guess is that its impact is felt much more there. At bare minimum, men are pretty much everywhere outperforming women in STEM fields, especially when math is important, but even when it isn't.

    Thanks

  176. @Pat Boyle
    My college career was different. No one in my family expected me to go to college. My uncle used to make fun of me. But I liked college.

    One reason I liked it was probably because I was so much smarter than all the rest. This wasn't just my inflated self opinion. I was the best math student in school. The best chemistry student and the best history student. I was also the best economics student and the best English student. I was also the captain of the debate team. I was the co-editor of the school paper and the vice President of the Student assembly. I was on the varsity basketball team. I supported myself as a tutor in math and chemistry. I played bridge for money (I was school champ)

    The college was George Mason (not MIT or Caltech). Except for foreign languages I was the best student in school. I had not just joined extracurricular activities - I began many of them. There were others - but I don't want to appear immodest.

    The point is my first couple years in college were very pleasant. Can you guess my secret?

    It isn't all just brains although I'm smart enough. I'm not, for example, as smart as Steve or Gregory Cochran or several others you run into on the Web (some in this thread). I went to grad school on a full academic scholarship and won several competitive academic fellowships. I really enjoyed school but in retrospect I realize I was never hard pressed very hard in either the classroom or on the campus.

    I'm sure that if I had come from a more competitive family and circle of friends I might have gotten further in the business world - but maybe not. Is it really important to suffer in your youth? Looking back those years all strike me as 'Golden Years' (like the duet about the University of Heidelberg in "The Student Prince").

    So what’s your secret?

    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    The secret to my success?

    Although George Mason is a huge university today that recruits Nobel Prize winners for it's faculty, I went there in its second full year of operation. There were only about 250 students in the whole school at the beginning of each semester. At the end of the academic year there were only about one hundred.

    Even with this tiny student body the school constructed its classes according to the University of Virginia at Charlottesville guidelines. The classes were real classes but there wasn't much competition from the other students. And not all of the students who they could manage to get were quite top notch.

    There's a lot to be said for attending a small school. It certainly helps with your self esteem.
    , @Renault
    Certainly not modesty.
  177. @oddsbodkins
    "Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman."

    Than any woman? Bull. If that were true, then in a typical class the best women would be less promising than the worst guy. I've been taking or teaching university level physics for 21 years, and this is simply not the case.

    A small but real percentage of those with Caltech & MIT level STEM talent are women. Probably about 10% of the total in physics. Less in math, more in biology. Certainly efforts to push that number toward parity through differential admissions standards are misguided and have many unfortunate consequences. Why not just admit them based on sex-blind criteria and leave them alone?

    "Women (as a group) will never be responsible for advancing any STEM field."

    You really should spend more time in a molecular biology lab.

    Sometimes reading the comments of this blog is painful.

    “Women (as a group) will never be responsible for advancing any STEM field.”

    You really should spend more time in a molecular biology lab.

    Care to elaborate?

  178. @Opinionator
    Thanks, interesting. Did she take the course while in high school, community college, or as a part-time student at a local Uni? It sounded like you wanted her to take it before choosing where to go full time.

    Thanks for asking.
    Our daughter took Linear Algebra course twice: first, while still in High School, she took it as summer course at local University, and second time inside the general “mathematical” course at Cornell U. (was it called calculus ?). I attended one particular lecture by Professor, who taught it with much better English pronunciation then mine; still slight French accent could be detected. I was indignant that instead of honest terminology: function (be it of one or several variables) he used the term “mapping”. Quite evident Bourbaki-style way to describe simple things. But I kept my indignation to myself.

    There was a particular event in my interaction with our daughter. She was probably 13 y.o. at the time.
    I was describing to her the notion of prime numbers as the ones which can not be decomposed into product of other integers.
    Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic (FTA), that any integer may be presented as product of primes, and that such decomposition is unique (up to the order of prime factors),
    has non-trivial content: uniqueness.
    Non-trivial counter-example exists: a mathematical construction of ‘quasi-numbers’, i.e. integer numbers of the form (1+4*k), with ‘k’ being usual integers. For example: 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, … .
    Product of two ‘quasi-numbers’ is a ‘quasi-number’ as well, e.g. 5*9 =45, 21*21 = 441.
    Actually the row of ‘quasi-numbers’ listed above, except 45, are all ‘quasi-primes’. In regular arithmetic 21 = 3*7, i.e. 21 is a composite number, not a prime one. But the factors of 21, i.e. 3 and 7, do not belong to set of ‘quasi-numbers’.
    Here is violation of “uniqueness” part of FTA: 441 === 21*21 === 49*9, no uniqueness of decomposition into ‘quasi-primes’.
    I was singing this song to our daughter, and suddenly she tells me: 21 is not ‘quasi-prime’,
    since 21 === (-3)*(-7), and both (-3) and (-7) are ‘quasi-numbers’ (with k=-1 and k=-3, respectively).
    It was like a bolt of a lightning for me. Only on the next day I imposed the condition k >=0, and was able to continue.

    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Corrections:
    1. In much better English pronunciation then mine I meant to use than.
    2. 'Quasi-number' 25 is 'quasi-composite': 25 = 5*5.
  179. @Opinionator
    Was your wife was bugging you to go ahead and try to have children earlier?

    Yeah, in an ideal world she would be starting on her goal at 20 of having 10 children or something. And yes, 26 is a bit later I would say, but its fine.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Haha, thanks for the reply. So why did you resist?
  180. @Faraday's Bobcat
    I'm a PhD in engineering with 20+ years of experience. In my opinion, there are a lot of crap jobs in engineering. To get a BS in engineering you have to be able to do things like find power series solutions to differential equations. Probably 95% of people will never be able to do that no matter how long they study. But most jobs you can get with a BS involve detail design, making minor modifications to codes someone else conceived and wrote, updating parts lists, salesmanship - stuff a bright high-schooler could do.

    There is interesting work but you have to position yourself to get it, and actively manage your career to stay in it. I've passed on two management positions, because I went to college for nine years so I could discover and invent things, not mediate arguments over who gets which cubicle or tell someone he needs to take a shower because he's stinking up the office.

    Thanks

  181. @Daniel Chieh
    Yeah, in an ideal world she would be starting on her goal at 20 of having 10 children or something. And yes, 26 is a bit later I would say, but its fine.

    Haha, thanks for the reply. So why did you resist?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Money, of course. I wanted to first make sure that I was making 6 digits, I suppose.
  182. @Immigrant from former USSR
    Thanks for asking.
    Our daughter took Linear Algebra course twice: first, while still in High School, she took it as summer course at local University, and second time inside the general "mathematical" course at Cornell U. (was it called calculus ?). I attended one particular lecture by Professor, who taught it with much better English pronunciation then mine; still slight French accent could be detected. I was indignant that instead of honest terminology: function (be it of one or several variables) he used the term "mapping". Quite evident Bourbaki-style way to describe simple things. But I kept my indignation to myself.

    There was a particular event in my interaction with our daughter. She was probably 13 y.o. at the time.
    I was describing to her the notion of prime numbers as the ones which can not be decomposed into product of other integers.
    Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic (FTA), that any integer may be presented as product of primes, and that such decomposition is unique (up to the order of prime factors),
    has non-trivial content: uniqueness.
    Non-trivial counter-example exists: a mathematical construction of 'quasi-numbers', i.e. integer numbers of the form (1+4*k), with 'k' being usual integers. For example: 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, ... .
    Product of two 'quasi-numbers' is a 'quasi-number' as well, e.g. 5*9 =45, 21*21 = 441.
    Actually the row of 'quasi-numbers' listed above, except 45, are all 'quasi-primes'. In regular arithmetic 21 = 3*7, i.e. 21 is a composite number, not a prime one. But the factors of 21, i.e. 3 and 7, do not belong to set of 'quasi-numbers'.
    Here is violation of "uniqueness" part of FTA: 441 === 21*21 === 49*9, no uniqueness of decomposition into 'quasi-primes'.
    I was singing this song to our daughter, and suddenly she tells me: 21 is not 'quasi-prime',
    since 21 === (-3)*(-7), and both (-3) and (-7) are 'quasi-numbers' (with k=-1 and k=-3, respectively).
    It was like a bolt of a lightning for me. Only on the next day I imposed the condition k >=0, and was able to continue.

    Corrections:
    1. In much better English pronunciation then mine I meant to use than.
    2. ‘Quasi-number’ 25 is ‘quasi-composite’: 25 = 5*5.

  183. @Opinionator
    Haha, thanks for the reply. So why did you resist?

    Money, of course. I wanted to first make sure that I was making 6 digits, I suppose.

  184. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman.”

    Than any woman? Bull. If that were true, then in a typical class the best women would be less promising than the worst guy.

    My sentence was unclear. I meant that the pool of males being replaced by females contains random men who each would have had a slim chance at greatness. While the female replacements each have close to zero chance at greatness.

    Males giving way to females in STEM is a profound negative shift. We need greatness and greatness occurs much less often in females than males in these fields.

    Also I used the phrase “females as a group” and was not talking about absolutes on an individual level. But on a group level? Sorry, unequal group outcomes are a fact of life. That is the main point of Steve’s blog.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Sorry, unequal group outcomes are a fact of life. That is the main point of Steve’s blog.

    I thought the main point of Steve's blog was rather to move in the direction of a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
    , @oddsbodkins
    "I meant that the pool of males being replaced by females contains random men who each would have had a slim chance at greatness. While the female replacements each have close to zero chance at greatness."

    Sure, if Caltech and MIT are choosing male and female students at random, then you would have a point. But then they wouldn't be Caltech and MIT anymore. They wouldn't even be podunk state. You can't apply a selection criteria to a dataset and expect the selected subset to have the statistical properties of the whole. Especially not a really strong selection criteria, like elite STEM college admissions.

    We do need STEM greatness. Devise a test to predict it and use that test to admit people to Caltech and MIT based on that alone. A well-crafted test is an amazingly powerful predictive tool; that's a major theme of this blog.
  185. @Buffalo Joe
    Caltech and MIT are great for people that can get in and excel. I ran into a young man that used to do some work for me. He graduated from the local community college, ECC, taking their Utility Grid program. This June will be his second year with National Grid, our electric provider. In his probationary year he earned $64, plus benefits. This year, his first full year as a lineman, he is on track to earn $100k, plus full benefits.He is 22 years old as is his girl friend, who is drop dead gorgeous, and an RN. They plan to marry next year. There are still options for those who don't want a four year degree. His brother just started with NG, so there are jobs.

    My nephew got into the Power Line technician co-op program at a college here in Ontario. For a guy that is not graduate degree EE material at Waterloo or U of T it’s a good alternative to a bachelor’s EE degree. Union job with good salary and defined-benefit pension, no cube farms, need to be athletic and if you’re willing to work overtime you can make a bundle. It’s a 24 month program with no breaks so you can be earning real money quickly without a lot of debt or having to spend time looking at the world through the diversity-inclusion lens.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Another, It is a viable options for those who can put in a full day's work in all sorts of conditions. More students should be made aware of this and trade apprenticeship programs.
  186. @Anonymous
    “Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman.”

    Than any woman? Bull. If that were true, then in a typical class the best women would be less promising than the worst guy.


    My sentence was unclear. I meant that the pool of males being replaced by females contains random men who each would have had a slim chance at greatness. While the female replacements each have close to zero chance at greatness.

    Males giving way to females in STEM is a profound negative shift. We need greatness and greatness occurs much less often in females than males in these fields.

    Also I used the phrase "females as a group" and was not talking about absolutes on an individual level. But on a group level? Sorry, unequal group outcomes are a fact of life. That is the main point of Steve's blog.

    Sorry, unequal group outcomes are a fact of life. That is the main point of Steve’s blog.

    I thought the main point of Steve’s blog was rather to move in the direction of a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

  187. @Daniel Chieh
    I'm not sure if having later birth is a close proxy for college attendance. It could simply be the overall trend; my wife, for example, doesn't have a college degree but we didn't try for children until she was 26 due to income concerns. She was bugging me the whole time, though; I think if I had not married her when she was 20, we would have delayed children even longer.

    My experience is indeed that college degrees tend to discourage birth. Quite a few DINK friends.

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down's Syndrome and other birth defects in children.

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down’s Syndrome and other birth defects in children.

    It’s probably a wash though, because college-educated women are way more likely to abort a DS baby.

  188. @Opinionator

    The problem is that the 15% that was crowded out turns out to contain the bulk, and in some cases the entirety, of the best and brightest.
     
    That isn't a "problem." Over time, other schools will be more competitive with the Top 10 schools because the intrinsic quality of the former's student body will be relatively improved.

    THAT IS A GOOD THING if you believe too much power in this country is concentrated in the Top 10 and their networks.

    Cute theory, but as far as I can tell, the premium that HYPS are worth over the next notch down is larger than ever.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    And it would be even larger without this talent distribution phenomenon.
  189. @snorlax
    Cute theory, but as far as I can tell, the premium that HYPS are worth over the next notch down is larger than ever.

    And it would be even larger without this talent distribution phenomenon.

  190. @Another Canadian
    My nephew got into the Power Line technician co-op program at a college here in Ontario. For a guy that is not graduate degree EE material at Waterloo or U of T it's a good alternative to a bachelor's EE degree. Union job with good salary and defined-benefit pension, no cube farms, need to be athletic and if you're willing to work overtime you can make a bundle. It's a 24 month program with no breaks so you can be earning real money quickly without a lot of debt or having to spend time looking at the world through the diversity-inclusion lens.

    Another, It is a viable options for those who can put in a full day’s work in all sorts of conditions. More students should be made aware of this and trade apprenticeship programs.

  191. @Daniel Chieh
    Among other things, I assist students with doctorate work. The only thing I note in specific is that quite a few girls despise college yet feel like they have to complete it, while writing basically useless essays and dissertations on ISLAMOPHOBIA IN FRANCE and FEMINISM AS PART OF SURREALIST FEMALE ARTISTS.

    By and large, I don't see this as improving their career potential either.

    On the other hand, being a housewife seems too low-status for many of them*, and trying to find a job seems to hopeless. College it has to be.


    * certainly not helped by the fact that boys expect them to work. When we were dating, I remember my would-be wife assuring me "I'll work, don't work" and I told her "I don't expect you to work, I do expect you to obey." She still thinks her family thinks badly of her.

    “I don’t expect you to work, I do expect you to obey.”

    Man, you’re my hero!
    Is your wife Chinese too? I’m told their submissive attitude can be mostly deception the better to hen-peck their husbands.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    No, she's French-Canadian. I just had a very clear idea of what I wanted.
  192. @BB753
    “I don’t expect you to work, I do expect you to obey.”

    Man, you're my hero!
    Is your wife Chinese too? I'm told their submissive attitude can be mostly deception the better to hen-peck their husbands.

    No, she’s French-Canadian. I just had a very clear idea of what I wanted.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Unless she's old-school Catholic, French girls aren't famous for being submissive or obedient to their husbands.
  193. @Opinionator

    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything
     
    But are they?

    With the exception of the Ivies, whose alumni networks are worth everything

    But are they?

    Harvard definitely. Yale perhaps, and so also Princeton. Stanford, definitely, in 2017, especially on the West Coast.

    My information is anecdotal, from a sample of about half-a-dozen individuals who’ve been to these places.

    I’m talking about networks that provide entree into general corporate and government careers for people who leave with bachelor’s degrees.

    All the Ivies have very strong networks if you want to go on to graduate school to do a Ph.D.

  194. @Anon 2
    In my department - I won't mention what
    it is but it is highly technical - we graduate a girl
    with a bachelor's degree about once every 10
    years. Some come here at 17-18, full of
    competitive spirit, already brainwashed by feminist
    dogma, to see if they can outdo the boys, and
    they inevitably fail. It's heartbreaking to watch
    but if they want to change majors to something
    more people-oriented that's fine with me. But the
    chair and the dean don't buy that because they need
    to fill the enrollment quotas, and those departments
    that girls like (e.g., social sciences) thrive. Others
    suffer from low enrollments. The fact that the female:male
    ratio at present is approaching 60:40 doesn't help. Back
    in the '60s the ratio was closer to 40:60, and that's when
    universities were dominated by science and engineering
    departments - science and engineering were still cool.
    The word "nerd" wasn't much in use. You were admired
    as a genius if you majored in physics or electrical engineering.

    Overall, the saying these days is that STEM (science, etc)
    disciplines are like strawberry picking - best left to
    foreigners, esp. at graduate level. Back in the ("greed is good")
    '80s, American students left science and engineering for finance, etc in
    a mass exodus, and they never came back. At the Ph.D. level
    about 50% of STEM degrees these days are awarded to foreign-born
    students

    In my department – I won’t mention what
    it is but it is highly technical
    – we graduate a girl
    with a bachelor’s degree about once every 10
    years.

    What’s the big deal? I can understand if you don’t want to mention the name of your institution but why so coy about the area of study?

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Yeah, that sounds implausible unless it's something extremely esoteric and obscure. Physics/math/electrical engineering and other such programs are male-heavy, but not that male-heavy.
  195. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    Oh how I laughed!
    “I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too.”

    My dad, who would say outrageous things, often said we “had to marry to better the race.” He included a kind heart in his long list, which I now see was a smart move.

    “I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back ”

    Yes indeed! Though I worry about a good-looking good-for-nothing, since the nerds have less of a chance in this Hollywood-driven age. Best wishes, BillP.

  196. @Anonymous
    “Each woman in these niches is taking the place of a guy who has a much greater chance of advancing the field than any woman.”

    Than any woman? Bull. If that were true, then in a typical class the best women would be less promising than the worst guy.


    My sentence was unclear. I meant that the pool of males being replaced by females contains random men who each would have had a slim chance at greatness. While the female replacements each have close to zero chance at greatness.

    Males giving way to females in STEM is a profound negative shift. We need greatness and greatness occurs much less often in females than males in these fields.

    Also I used the phrase "females as a group" and was not talking about absolutes on an individual level. But on a group level? Sorry, unequal group outcomes are a fact of life. That is the main point of Steve's blog.

    “I meant that the pool of males being replaced by females contains random men who each would have had a slim chance at greatness. While the female replacements each have close to zero chance at greatness.”

    Sure, if Caltech and MIT are choosing male and female students at random, then you would have a point. But then they wouldn’t be Caltech and MIT anymore. They wouldn’t even be podunk state. You can’t apply a selection criteria to a dataset and expect the selected subset to have the statistical properties of the whole. Especially not a really strong selection criteria, like elite STEM college admissions.

    We do need STEM greatness. Devise a test to predict it and use that test to admit people to Caltech and MIT based on that alone. A well-crafted test is an amazingly powerful predictive tool; that’s a major theme of this blog.

  197. • Replies: @snorlax
    As is often the case, the comments are more edifying than the article. (The submitters of fraudulent papers were virtually all from China, plus one Russian).
  198. @PiltdownMan

    In my department – I won’t mention what
    it is but it is highly technical
    – we graduate a girl
    with a bachelor’s degree about once every 10
    years.
     
    What's the big deal? I can understand if you don't want to mention the name of your institution but why so coy about the area of study?

    Yeah, that sounds implausible unless it’s something extremely esoteric and obscure. Physics/math/electrical engineering and other such programs are male-heavy, but not that male-heavy.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    It's a small department so the numbers of male students
    are also relatively small
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Probably obscure enough to get doxxed by the liberal commisars who might wander by and be checking up on good potential victims for a struggle session.
  199. @Anon 2
    Caltech no longer has many Nobel Prize
    winners, people like Feynman or Gell-Mann,
    so the bloom is off the rose. Also a couple of Caltech
    physicists participated in the invention of string
    theories which turned out to be a dud. Even John
    Horgan (Scientific American) had a column recently,
    "How Physics Lost Its Fizz." The low-hanging fruit
    has already been plucked, and so these days physics,
    chemistry, and math are no longer very exciting.
    Nobody wants to use the word "stagnation," but
    that's what it is. Many American-born students these
    days think that the Universe is not terribly interesting.
    They are surprised that Asian students are still interested
    in a field like physics which they describe as "hard, dull, and useless."

    Caltech physics has spent the last fifty years investing in both the theoretical and experimental ends of the LIGO experiment. It has paid off handsomely and the Nobels are in the bag, barring a sudden death or a stupid priority dispute. But Nobels are a terrible way to measure the science prowess of a school anyway. That’s what academies are for.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    Caltech still has Politzer (2004 Nobel in Physics) but the world
    hasn't really heard from Politzer since the 1970s when he and
    Wilczek co-discovered asymptotic freedom in quark physics.
    This can hardly compare with the glory days in the 1950s-60s
    when Caltech had Linus Pauling, Feynman, and Gell-Mann,
    the first two were incredibly famous.

    A little history:

    - The 1950s were the Atomic Age when scientists (esp. physicists) and
    engineers were lionized because they contributed to the victory in WW II
    through great inventions like radar, computers, and the atom bomb. Then
    in 1957 came the Sputnik Shock, and scientists were enlisted in the battle
    between Communism and Capitalism to show that the American Way of Life
    was superior to the Soviet system;

    - The 1960s showed the triumph of the American Way of Life when the U.S.
    beat the Soviets to the moon in 1969. Americans started losing interest in science
    when the dark side of science (arms race, atmospheric nuclear tests at the Bikini
    Atoll and many other places, etc) became widely known. UC Berkeley activists
    started referring to scientists as "whores in the service of the military-industrial
    complex";

    -The 1970s reinforced the trends already present in the '60s: rock stars as cultural heroes
    eclipsed scientists and engineers. People start exploring altered stares of consciousness
    through psychedelic drugs and meditation (e.g., TM), and conclude that inner space is
    more interesting than outer space. The trend has intensified in recent decades with the
    widespread use of marijuana, heroin, opioids, and of course alcohol. Being high is more
    fun than doing problem sets in physics;

    - The 1980s, the decade of the Yuppie: mass exodus of U.S. born students from STEM into
    finance, banking, and business. Greed is good and the MBA becomes the sought-after degree;

    -The 1990s to the present: White U.S.-born students increasingly believe that science, like
    strawberry picking, is best left to immigrants. Immigrants are low-status people who have
    fewer choices in life so they'll do what Americans increasingly find distasteful like science
    (but not computer science). Besides majoring in STEM kills your social life. Another issue
    is that the entry of women and nonwhites into any academic field lowers its social status.
    Besides, Darwinism and decline of Christianity undermine the faith that the Universe was
    created by God, and is perhaps a botched science experiment by a third-grader in some higher
    dimension. If the Universe doesn't reflect the Glory of God, then why study it? It can only undermine your faith
  200. @Anon
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/04/107-cancer-papers-retracted-due-to-peer-review-fraud/

    As is often the case, the comments are more edifying than the article. (The submitters of fraudulent papers were virtually all from China, plus one Russian).

  201. @Opinionator
    They also have actual data on male vs. female GPA while at MIT – the final GPA’s are about the same and women have a slightly higher graduation rate

    Do these outcomes control for major and course of study?

    20 years ago, I did an evaluation of grades by gender at the school I was teaching at. I found that women had a higher GPA then men in every major! Although the gender ratios of classes did vary by major (engineering women did quite well but there weren’t too many of them). One time I was stuck at the Business School awards. I found it interesting that although women were 1/3 of the majors they had won 3/4 of the awards. I am not sure if that result holds every where but I do know that women are on average significantly better students at most colleges.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    Women are, on average, more diligent and dutiful than men. Their temperament is better suited to the academic grind. Their tolerance for boredom is higher. They make excellent worker drones.

    But there is a point beyond which slavish female diligence, without the raw brainpower to back it up, simply is not sufficient to allow one to compete. In this realm, it truly is a man's world. Men predominate at the very high end (and at the very low end) of the IQ spectrum.

    (This is the argument that Larry Summers tried to make, for which he was excoriated.)

    It is men, not women, who create new worlds and forge new paths. All of the technologies with which we are communicating - computers, telecommunications, and so forth - were invented by men.

    In my experience, high-performing female students are most adept at memorizing and regurgitating information and absorbing insights generated by greater minds than theirs. They tend to be more bright than brilliant.

    Once a woman has built a mental template of some facet of reality, she will go through life mapping her observations of the real world onto that template. But if the template is flawed - as it surely is if she has received the full dose of multiculti indoctrination - then she will be forced to twist and distort her perceptions of reality to make them comport with her view of how the world supposedly operates. The idea that it might be prudent to modify the template so that it better reflects the true state of affairs does not occur to her; if a man impudently suggests that she should reconsider her viewpoint, she feels insulted and lashes out in anger.

    Women are capable of elaborate feats of mental gymnastics that allow them to reassure themselves that the fundamental beliefs they have been taught are correct, regardless of any and all incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. A woman can make herself believe that 2 + 2 is 5 not because she is ignorant of basic arithmetic, but because she has convinced herself that 5 is actually 4.

    Lest you misunderstand me, I'm not denying the usefulness of women to the modern economy - they supply much of the grease that keeps the corporate machinery humming. But I hasten to point out that all of that machinery was built by men.
    , @guest
    Schools have been totally chickified, top to bottom. They ought to dominate it, but they only just do marginally better, not counting areas where they simply can't compete.
  202. @Opinionator
    You can't be serious.

    Can be and am so.

  203. @Formerly CARealist
    Do you have any opinion of a school named Embry Riddle in AZ? Aeronautics and Aerospace are their specialty.

    Embry-Riddle is a good school and practical oriented but not the equal of a Cal Poly SLO, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc.

    If you are a CA resident and your kid is smart and wants to go into engineering, especially aerospace or mechanical, Cal Poly SLO is the best value in the country – cheap and a top 20 school on anybody’s list. If you’re a Texas resident, A&M is about the same. But again, a smart and motivated student will be fine at any reasonable school. The only real advantage to a “name” school is it may help the graduate get an interview.

    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    CalPoly has 20k students. Embry-Riddle has 2.5k. So at the smaller school a student will get much more personal attention from professors. Doesn't that count for something?

    We visited Cal Poly and it felt huge and impersonal.

    Embry-Riddle was very conservative, too. Full of Air Force ROTC and Trump supporters.

    Difficult decision.
  204. @Rod1963
    The school crushed her emotionally, made her hate higher ed. Some people aren't meant for higher ed and life as a grinder in some cube farm. Really that's all it's good for. You really have to have a bad case of OCD to handle it without going bonkers.

    Even if they make it through school, they can still burn out from insane schedules that wreck their physical and mental health.

    Some end up as truck drivers or gardeners. I knew two men who had graduate degrees in CS from Carnegie Mellon who walked away from cherry jobs at Northrop. One became a salesman and another just went into the tall grass. The point was they experienced what a grind most tech work is and after spending almost two years getting their graduate degree just couldn't take it anymore.

    Humans aren't machines.

    Hehe. I was just going to comment thay Carnegie Mellon should be added to the list with MIT and CalTech.

    I can vouch for the grind of the sector; since I am not myself an engineer I am somewhat insulated from it, but it is ubiquitous. The only people I know who genuinely thrive in it are machines: autistic, single-minded types who will spend weekends and nights working on projects for the company even when the boss is sincerely riding their asses to take it easy and stop working so much (because he doesn’t want them to burn out or damage their health – yes, there are still moral and wise leaders here and there…). I know guys who wear braces and get regular treatment by physical therapists and joke that they are “against exercise;” they spend eighty hours a week coding despite it’s negative effects on their health.

    It’s weird. I wonder if in future times neurologists will identify some biochemical aspect of such people which reveals they are essentially functioning the same way that, say, a self-destructive drug addict does….

  205. @Anon
    Speaking of sneaky affirmative action, I applied as a transfer student to UCLA and UC Berkeley, and I checked off the hispanic box (I'm 1/8 mexican). I'll let you know how things turn out since I hear back this week. Wish me luck! :-)

    Pffft, keep up, will you? Joking aside, I laud your efforts, but I encourage you to not be shy about them.

    In addition to my (inarguable and documented) status as a combat veteran, I always indicate my identification as an African-American Hispanic who also idenfiies as “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Or Transgendered” (the applications don’t seem to ever ask for specificity about who I am boinking the way they do my race…).

    Who’s to tell me I am not? I don’t know what effect my choices actually have, but I’ve gotten interviews right through to in-person meetings and offers of employment. So my choices aren’t hurting me, and perhaps they are keeping my résumé from being placed in the circular file early on.

    I’ll beat the drum until I have carpal tunnel: Don’t play the game; it’s rigged against white people and males (or, rather, do play the game – correctly, like the privileged little Mohammedan who cares so much about black people he is going to Stanford, where there aren’t any to speak of, and he may well not so much as see one for weeks at a time!).

  206. @Alden
    Wait a year and check the black instead of White box.

    Finally, someone who gets it. If Barry Obama can be black, anyone can.

  207. The biggest problem with engineering is that, like it or not, engineering schools are just glorified trade schools for people with higher math skills. I say this, btw, with the utmost respect for engineering because it is the highest expression of the “craft mentality” that we have going in America.

    The issue is that, at minimum, engineering is heavily commodified. What exactly is the difference between a mechanical or electrical engineer from CalTech, Stanford or MIT, and an engineering grad from any average engineering school…that is, the difference from the practical perspective of a company that has to build things to sell to customers that may not themselves be engineers?

    If you are ExxonMobil or Halliburton, would it not make sense to influence local universities to provide curricula that train the workforce you need for your company? Halliburton and Exxon would just tell Texas A&M and UT to teach this set of skills to their grads they would need to work at Exxon or Halliburton. Ditto for Raytheon, Motorola, Boeing, General Electric.

    Even if CalTech, MIT and Stanford genuinely have much smarter students than other places, is that extra brainpower really necessary for most corporate engineering work? Will companies continue paying a premium for this extra brainpower, when they can just bring in an H1B to run CAD/CAM machinery, or some similar job?

    It seems that CalTech, MIT, and Stanford engineering is geared toward a prestigious research academic career, much like the physical sciences. Except, for those who do not get into research but in practical areas, they are going to get into a grinding job where most of the practical work can be done by a lot of other people besides them. The extra training is just not necessary.

    Engineering looks like a very bifurcated career path for top kids at top schools. Choose research, and it appears to be a pretty celebrated path, although not as celebrated as the physical sciences, since cutting edge is required of that. Choose corporate work, which will not fund basic research, but, instead, incremental improvements in existing products to keep clients happy, and you will eventually get replaced by glorified machinists ot equivalent imported through the H1B program.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    If you are ExxonMobil or Halliburton, would it not make sense to influence local universities to provide curricula that train the workforce you need for your company?
     
    AT&T thinks so. They sponsored the online MS in Comp Sci at Georgia Tech

    Online Master of Science in Computer Science

    The tuition was (originally) $6,600 - but AT&T determined the curriculum.

    equivalent imported through the H1B program
     
    Well maybe, but the imports often do not work out as well as the myopic managers hope for. Look at, e.g., outsourcing customer support.
    , @Autochthon
    It is simply not true that cutting-edge research occurs only in academia and not in corporations. Nowadays as much or more occurs in corporations, and academic work invariably involves subsidies, partnerships, and a kind if revolving door with corporations; many if the most ingenius persons hold dual positions: maintaining some endowed chair at a university but also making money as the founder of a start-up commercialising the work he does in his university's laboratories or as a director at Google, Microsoft, Ford, etc.

    These guys are also famous for placing their students and post-docs in the relevant companies. Mind you, everyone involved is rarified, and, yes, the overwhelming majority of engineering work – both in academic research and corporations – is indeed dull, routine, workaday stuff. But if you truly are a genius, you can and will shine in a corporation. There are plenty of guys in Silly Valley and similar areas who invented this or that breakthrough in artificial intelligence, graphene, or whatever as part of their doctoral studies who are now senior directors and even vice presidents at giant corporations (like Facebook, Google, IBM, etc.) while still in their late twenties or early thirties.
  208. @eah
    she broke down into tears

    Back in the day, I transferred to a similar (ie competitive, highly regarded) school for the winter quarter (they now have a semester schedule) -- a couple of housing possibilities I looked at were being vacated by students who had developed ulcers -- I thought that was weird.

    OT -- Interesting graphic:

    https://twitter.com/polNewsNet/status/856237058746134528

    Have you ever played any of the old Infocom text adventure games? They had no graphics and were almost like interactive novels. Some of them were surprisingly intricate. By early-’80s standards, the Infocom parser was extremely sophisticated. (Half of the fun of these games was typing outrageous commands to see if the programmers had anticipated such zany input.)

    Adding to the games’ depth were “feelies” – materials that Infocom included in the box to try to add to the authenticity of the game-playing experience.

    One of the last titles the company produced before being swallowed up and dismantled by Activision was the pseudo-Lovecraftian The Lurking Horror (1987). It was set at “G.U.E. Tech,” a thinly-veiled stand-in for MIT.

    One of the feelies for TLH was a “G.U.E. Guide for Freshmen”:
    http://gallery.guetech.org/lurking/lurking.html

    This quote from the guide is somewhat funny, if you have a morbid sense of humor:

    In spite of what your roommate will tell you, G.U.E. Tech does not have the highest suicide rate in the country. However, it *is* a high-pressure school. While you’re wondering what happened to the distraught student who used to sit next to you in Introductory Calculus, you might also be wondering how you’re going to get through midterms without cracking up.

    To give you an idea of how these games worked, here’s a transcript from Deadline (1982), in which the player assumes the role of a detective investigating a businessman’s apparent suicide:

    >w
    End of Hallway
    This is the west end of the upstairs hall. To the north is the library, where Mr. Robner was found. Its solid oak door has been knocked down and is lying just inside the entrance to the library. A window which cannot be opened is at the end of the hallway.

    >open window
    You must be very clever to do that to the window.

    >smash window
    What do you want to smash the window with?

    >inventory
    You are empty-handed.

    >n
    Library
    This is the library where Mr. Robner’s body was found. It is decorated in a simple but comfortable style. Mr. Robner obviously spent a great deal of time here. A wide executive desk sits before tall balcony windows which lie at the north of the room. A telephone is sitting on the desk. The east side of the room is composed of three large bookshelf units containing numerous volumes on many topics. The floor is carpeted from wall to wall. The massive oak door which blocked the entrance has been forcibly knocked off its hinges and is lying by the doorway.
    A pencil is lying on the floor near the desk.
    Beside the desk is a large collapsible tray.
    Sitting on the tray is a bowl containing a white powdery substance.
    Alongside the desk is a wicker wastepaper basket.
    The wastepaper basket contains:
    * A bunch of crumpled papers
    Lying on the floor, overturned, is a beautiful saucer.
    Turned onto its side, lying on the floor, is a beautiful teacup.
    Lying atop the desk is a pad of white note paper.
    A desk calendar is here, open to July 7.
    There is a bottle of Ebullion here.

    >pick up pencil and pad
    pencil: Taken.
    note pad: Taken.

    >rub pencil on pad
    Shading the paper with the pencil reveals impressions left by writing on the previous sheet. The writer must borne [sic] down heavily, but only a few words come out clearly:

    Baxter,

    st time
    nsist / op / merg
    mnidy / Oth
    forc
    ocumen / y / poss
    plica / y / Focus s
    recons
    late!
    – rsha

    >open balcony door
    The balcony door is now open.

    >n
    Library Balcony
    The balcony is bare of furniture, though it has a beautiful view of the rose garden, the north lawn and the lake. A metal railing around the balcony prevents an accidental drop to the thorny roses below. The window between the balcony and the library is open.
    Away to the north, Mr. McNabb can be seen picking weeds.

    >look at railing
    The railing is made of a sturdy metal and helps prevent nasty falls. There is a small area of paint scraped off the outside edge.

    >look at window
    The balcony door is open, but you can’t tell what’s beyond it.

    >jump
    For a brief moment, you feel the exhilaration of free fall. A thought hits you: the ground is moving toward me. It is your last thought.

    [DOS prompt]

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I miss those old text adventure games. There's still an underground community writing them, and I'm tempted to participate again. It scratches both my writing as well as my game-development itch.
    , @res
    How did I miss that?! Thanks! It is available at http://www.myabandonware.com/game/the-lurking-horror-bn
    Lots of executables available (e.g. to play locally in DOSBox) or can play in your browser if you change the executable to lurking.bat

    Perhaps something to play around with next winter. It would be fun to see how they rendered the steam tunnels.

    P.S. PDF manual (for the Amiga though) available at the link.

  209. @Lot
    I have not seen much about this BLM supporting black Muslim who murdered three white men in Fresno last week.

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-fresno-shooter-suspect-20170418-story.html

    I take no pleasure in my accurate prediction at the time that it would be essentially ignored because White Lives Don’t Matter and Fresno is where poor whites and Badwhites live (largely the same group of people).

  210. @Larry, San Francisco
    20 years ago, I did an evaluation of grades by gender at the school I was teaching at. I found that women had a higher GPA then men in every major! Although the gender ratios of classes did vary by major (engineering women did quite well but there weren't too many of them). One time I was stuck at the Business School awards. I found it interesting that although women were 1/3 of the majors they had won 3/4 of the awards. I am not sure if that result holds every where but I do know that women are on average significantly better students at most colleges.

    Women are, on average, more diligent and dutiful than men. Their temperament is better suited to the academic grind. Their tolerance for boredom is higher. They make excellent worker drones.

    But there is a point beyond which slavish female diligence, without the raw brainpower to back it up, simply is not sufficient to allow one to compete. In this realm, it truly is a man’s world. Men predominate at the very high end (and at the very low end) of the IQ spectrum.

    (This is the argument that Larry Summers tried to make, for which he was excoriated.)

    It is men, not women, who create new worlds and forge new paths. All of the technologies with which we are communicating – computers, telecommunications, and so forth – were invented by men.

    In my experience, high-performing female students are most adept at memorizing and regurgitating information and absorbing insights generated by greater minds than theirs. They tend to be more bright than brilliant.

    Once a woman has built a mental template of some facet of reality, she will go through life mapping her observations of the real world onto that template. But if the template is flawed – as it surely is if she has received the full dose of multiculti indoctrination – then she will be forced to twist and distort her perceptions of reality to make them comport with her view of how the world supposedly operates. The idea that it might be prudent to modify the template so that it better reflects the true state of affairs does not occur to her; if a man impudently suggests that she should reconsider her viewpoint, she feels insulted and lashes out in anger.

    Women are capable of elaborate feats of mental gymnastics that allow them to reassure themselves that the fundamental beliefs they have been taught are correct, regardless of any and all incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. A woman can make herself believe that 2 + 2 is 5 not because she is ignorant of basic arithmetic, but because she has convinced herself that 5 is actually 4.

    Lest you misunderstand me, I’m not denying the usefulness of women to the modern economy – they supply much of the grease that keeps the corporate machinery humming. But I hasten to point out that all of that machinery was built by men.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I always wonder why occult chinky magic that the Japanese use that they still have basically completely gender-defined roles and yet maintain a first world country. Clearly the same kind of magic that 1970s America had, when houses were still affordable for a working man with a stay-at-home wife. Surely no one would suggest that increasing the supply of labor might actually decrease real wages, inflate prices and serve to endlessly feed bureaucratic intervention for "diversity."

    That would be unthinkable.

    No, its just occult magic that migrated from the West to the East around the 1970s, as sure as magnetic poles flip.

    , @BB753
    Women are mostly useful to a modern economy as consumers. They buy 80% of the crap being produced.
  211. @Daniel Chieh
    No, she's French-Canadian. I just had a very clear idea of what I wanted.

    Unless she’s old-school Catholic, French girls aren’t famous for being submissive or obedient to their husbands.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Her family was old-school Catholic; she isn't religious herself. But she was pretty traditional in her mores and I'm lucky to be able to find someone like that. Her mother was a housewife, so in that sense, she had a good inspiration but also got to learn from the mistakes of her many elder sisters.

    One of her elder sisters didn't want to work and became a drifter living off welfare and men, successfully ticking off the checkboxes to become white trash. Another went into the endless college churn, living off loans before dropping out and getting married, no children. Yet another completed an advanced degree, went into the field her father was in, and has since gone completely insane with severe schizoid symptoms. On the days when the voices aren't talking too much to her, she's a massive progressive. She hasn't worked in two years at least.

    Evidently as a young girl, my wife told her mother that she wanted to be a housewife and stuck to it throughout her life despite some difficulties.

    PS: Though, that said, her brother isn't doing much better. After an engineering degree and a stint at Microsoft, he dropped out of society and is living off pot, alcohol, and the glorious Canadian welfare system. Hooray.

    PPS: As much as they don't sound like the Glory of the Quebecois, they are surprisingly wealthy. Their family stretches back to the original settlers with Gen. Montecalm, includes quite a few successful individuals who bought stretches of land in both Canada and the US. I guess modern life hasn't killed off their failures fast enough, though..heh.

  212. @snorlax
    Yeah, that sounds implausible unless it's something extremely esoteric and obscure. Physics/math/electrical engineering and other such programs are male-heavy, but not that male-heavy.

    It’s a small department so the numbers of male students
    are also relatively small

  213. @ic1000
    Mostly OT: Via commenter Robert Ford at Razib's new place --

    DNA Tests, and Sometimes Surprising Results, by Anita Foeman, professor of communications studies, West Chester University. NYT, 4/20/17.

    Prof. Foeman has had hundreds of her students predict their racial pedigree, then take ancestry/com-23andMe type ancestry tests.

    As a member in good standing of the Academy, she'd be unable to compose a sentence that contains the words "race" and "evolution." Yet unsurprisingly, her findings are best understood in an HBD-aware framework.

    Most amusing case study: Bernard

    Identifies as: Black; father is black and mother is white

    His prediction: 50% European, 50% African

    His comments before the test: "My mother said, 'I know you are me, but no cop is going to take the time to find out your mother is white.' She was very specific about raising me as a black man.

    Results: 91% European, 5% Middle Eastern, 2% Hispanic; less than 1% African and Asian

    Thoughts about his ancestry results: "What are you trying to do to me? You have caused a lot of problems in my family. I know my nose is sharp and my skin is light, but my politics are as black as night. Today, I don’t identify as mixed. I reject my white privilege in a racist America. There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black."
     
    As far as I know, he is not the president of the local chapter of the NAACP.

    There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black.

    And so ends his mother’s entire line, as definitively as if she had never borne a child at all.

    The overhwelming majority (I’d guess ninety-nine per cent) of such people take this attitude, and it belies a similar point made a while ago by Mr. Derbyshire.

    Mr. Derbyshire pointed out that the nonsense claims from leftists that they are oppressed and afraid and so forth is disproved on its face because if they trult were so, the last thing in the world they would so is openly talk about the matter, defy the government via protests and marches, and so on. These people go on national television and drone on and on about how they genuinely fear for their very lives following Mr. Trump’s election; they run full-page adverts and editorials im The New York Times. It’s silly.

    Do you believe for one moment anyone in a genuinely repressive and dangerous place would do such things? In North Korea? Stalin’s Russia? Heck, I bet it would be difficuly if not impossible to thus denounce and insult the ruling Saudi family in Arabia.

    [MORE]

    If the Western governments, employers, and others in positions of power were truly dangerous and oppressive to blacks (and mestizos, Asians, Arabs, etc.) they would perforce not fall over themselves to move not just move to our countries, but into the whitest parts of our countries they possibly can. They certainly wouldn’t carry on as they do. In an actually dangerous and oppressive state that had it in for black people, Al Sharpton and Jease Jackson would long since have been disappeared by governmental death squads. There certainly would not be a big statue of Martin King on the national mall. And so on.

    Ironically, the actual oppression and danger to both black people and these mulattos (and, Hell’s bells, even white people) comes from black people! It is black people who publicly spout racist and hateful things against white people with impunity. It is white people the government proactively oppresses and discriminates against via so-called “affirmative action” and similar shemes. It is black people who would mock, taunt, and probably even assault Bernard and his ilk were they to openly claim their white ancestry as mulattos, much less if they were to claim to be only white the same way they currently claim to be only black.

    Whiny mulattos like the guy Bernard and Barry Obama would scramble to emphasize that their mothers are white and claim themselves to be white, as well, rather than black. Even if they decided the genetic dominance of dark skin over recessive white skin precluded this approach, they would at least emphasize that they are mulattos and not truly blacks.

    Note too that it damn near always the mother who is the “oppressor” race when miscegenation occurs, another complete inversion of reality: in actual cases of oppression and subjugation the ruling men take the women from those they overpower, as happened for example with the conquistadors in America. (I’ll warrant the genetic profiles of mestizos indicate nearly all of their male ancestors are all Europeans and their female ancestors Indios….)

    Returning to Bernard’s words: he has utter contempt for his mother’s line and her people; she herself hates them, in a supreme display of miserable self-loathing, and has toiled to instill that contempt and hatred in her mulatto child.
    This phenomenon is why there can be no hippy-dippy world where all races are treated equally as a result of miscegenation, as some who advocate for it would have us believe. Invariably the mulatto, mestizo, and otherwise half-breed children reject, despise, and even proacrively seek to destroy their own white forebears. Happas seem
    to often be an exception presently, but mark my words: as Asians increasingly join the racket for cash and prizes by clamoring “I too am aggreived and oppressed and in danger!” (and they are doing so, having realises the game is very lucrative indeed…), the exception will decline, and they will also denounce their own white ancestors.

    For these reasons, nevermind the destruction of biodiversity, many of us oppose miscegenation; our rejection is completely rational and reasoned because of the demonstravly negative outcomes. Yet opponents of the position would have you believe we are all of us raving lunatics in the style of Hitler and Goebbels. I wish black people success and long life. I just don’t want them destroying white people to achieve it.

    • Replies: @res

    Mr. Derbyshire pointed out that the nonsense claims from leftists that they are oppressed and afraid and so forth is disproved on its face because if they trult were so, the last thing in the world they would so is openly talk about the matter, defy the government via protests and marches, and so on. These people go on national television and drone on and on about how they genuinely fear for their very lives following Mr. Trump’s election; they run full-page adverts and editorials im The New York Times. It’s silly.
     
    How do we get this argument into the national consciousness? It is so obviously true I don't see how any thinking person can ignore it.
    , @Twinkie

    Mr. Derbyshire
     
    You know he is married to an East Asian and has mixed children, right? I believe his son is in the military now.

    Invariably the mulatto, mestizo, and otherwise half-breed children reject, despise, and even proacrively seek to destroy their own white forebears. Happas seem to often be an exception presently, but mark my words: as Asians increasingly join the racket for cash and prizes by clamoring “I too am aggreived and oppressed and in danger!” (and they are doing so, having realises the game is very lucrative indeed…), the exception will decline, and they will also denounce their own white ancestors.
     
    There is no evidence AT ALL that is happening now with "Happas." Not only does a large majority of mixed white-Asians identify as whites in the United States, a large subset of American-born Asians (no white admixture), i.e. "pure" Asians, especially from the third generation and on, identify as "whites"!

    Asian SJWs might attract the watchful gaze of Mr. Sailer, but they are a tiny segment of the Asian population in the U.S. and are not reflective of that general population. No one but God knows the future, but for now your prediction looks extremely unlikely.
  214. @Stan Adams
    Women are, on average, more diligent and dutiful than men. Their temperament is better suited to the academic grind. Their tolerance for boredom is higher. They make excellent worker drones.

    But there is a point beyond which slavish female diligence, without the raw brainpower to back it up, simply is not sufficient to allow one to compete. In this realm, it truly is a man's world. Men predominate at the very high end (and at the very low end) of the IQ spectrum.

    (This is the argument that Larry Summers tried to make, for which he was excoriated.)

    It is men, not women, who create new worlds and forge new paths. All of the technologies with which we are communicating - computers, telecommunications, and so forth - were invented by men.

    In my experience, high-performing female students are most adept at memorizing and regurgitating information and absorbing insights generated by greater minds than theirs. They tend to be more bright than brilliant.

    Once a woman has built a mental template of some facet of reality, she will go through life mapping her observations of the real world onto that template. But if the template is flawed - as it surely is if she has received the full dose of multiculti indoctrination - then she will be forced to twist and distort her perceptions of reality to make them comport with her view of how the world supposedly operates. The idea that it might be prudent to modify the template so that it better reflects the true state of affairs does not occur to her; if a man impudently suggests that she should reconsider her viewpoint, she feels insulted and lashes out in anger.

    Women are capable of elaborate feats of mental gymnastics that allow them to reassure themselves that the fundamental beliefs they have been taught are correct, regardless of any and all incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. A woman can make herself believe that 2 + 2 is 5 not because she is ignorant of basic arithmetic, but because she has convinced herself that 5 is actually 4.

    Lest you misunderstand me, I'm not denying the usefulness of women to the modern economy - they supply much of the grease that keeps the corporate machinery humming. But I hasten to point out that all of that machinery was built by men.

    I always wonder why occult chinky magic that the Japanese use that they still have basically completely gender-defined roles and yet maintain a first world country. Clearly the same kind of magic that 1970s America had, when houses were still affordable for a working man with a stay-at-home wife. Surely no one would suggest that increasing the supply of labor might actually decrease real wages, inflate prices and serve to endlessly feed bureaucratic intervention for “diversity.”

    That would be unthinkable.

    No, its just occult magic that migrated from the West to the East around the 1970s, as sure as magnetic poles flip.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Judging by their birth rates, the defined gender roles for Japanese women apparently don't include child bearing.
  215. @snorlax
    Yeah, that sounds implausible unless it's something extremely esoteric and obscure. Physics/math/electrical engineering and other such programs are male-heavy, but not that male-heavy.

    Probably obscure enough to get doxxed by the liberal commisars who might wander by and be checking up on good potential victims for a struggle session.

  216. @BB753
    Unless she's old-school Catholic, French girls aren't famous for being submissive or obedient to their husbands.

    Her family was old-school Catholic; she isn’t religious herself. But she was pretty traditional in her mores and I’m lucky to be able to find someone like that. Her mother was a housewife, so in that sense, she had a good inspiration but also got to learn from the mistakes of her many elder sisters.

    One of her elder sisters didn’t want to work and became a drifter living off welfare and men, successfully ticking off the checkboxes to become white trash. Another went into the endless college churn, living off loans before dropping out and getting married, no children. Yet another completed an advanced degree, went into the field her father was in, and has since gone completely insane with severe schizoid symptoms. On the days when the voices aren’t talking too much to her, she’s a massive progressive. She hasn’t worked in two years at least.

    Evidently as a young girl, my wife told her mother that she wanted to be a housewife and stuck to it throughout her life despite some difficulties.

    PS: Though, that said, her brother isn’t doing much better. After an engineering degree and a stint at Microsoft, he dropped out of society and is living off pot, alcohol, and the glorious Canadian welfare system. Hooray.

    PPS: As much as they don’t sound like the Glory of the Quebecois, they are surprisingly wealthy. Their family stretches back to the original settlers with Gen. Montecalm, includes quite a few successful individuals who bought stretches of land in both Canada and the US. I guess modern life hasn’t killed off their failures fast enough, though..heh.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Almost all of the millions of Quebecois are descended from a few thousand French settlers. It's proof of the magic of exponential functions.
  217. @oddsbodkins
    Caltech physics has spent the last fifty years investing in both the theoretical and experimental ends of the LIGO experiment. It has paid off handsomely and the Nobels are in the bag, barring a sudden death or a stupid priority dispute. But Nobels are a terrible way to measure the science prowess of a school anyway. That's what academies are for.

    Caltech still has Politzer (2004 Nobel in Physics) but the world
    hasn’t really heard from Politzer since the 1970s when he and
    Wilczek co-discovered asymptotic freedom in quark physics.
    This can hardly compare with the glory days in the 1950s-60s
    when Caltech had Linus Pauling, Feynman, and Gell-Mann,
    the first two were incredibly famous.

    A little history:

    – The 1950s were the Atomic Age when scientists (esp. physicists) and
    engineers were lionized because they contributed to the victory in WW II
    through great inventions like radar, computers, and the atom bomb. Then
    in 1957 came the Sputnik Shock, and scientists were enlisted in the battle
    between Communism and Capitalism to show that the American Way of Life
    was superior to the Soviet system;

    – The 1960s showed the triumph of the American Way of Life when the U.S.
    beat the Soviets to the moon in 1969. Americans started losing interest in science
    when the dark side of science (arms race, atmospheric nuclear tests at the Bikini
    Atoll and many other places, etc) became widely known. UC Berkeley activists
    started referring to scientists as “whores in the service of the military-industrial
    complex”;

    -The 1970s reinforced the trends already present in the ’60s: rock stars as cultural heroes
    eclipsed scientists and engineers. People start exploring altered stares of consciousness
    through psychedelic drugs and meditation (e.g., TM), and conclude that inner space is
    more interesting than outer space. The trend has intensified in recent decades with the
    widespread use of marijuana, heroin, opioids, and of course alcohol. Being high is more
    fun than doing problem sets in physics;

    – The 1980s, the decade of the Yuppie: mass exodus of U.S. born students from STEM into
    finance, banking, and business. Greed is good and the MBA becomes the sought-after degree;

    -The 1990s to the present: White U.S.-born students increasingly believe that science, like
    strawberry picking, is best left to immigrants. Immigrants are low-status people who have
    fewer choices in life so they’ll do what Americans increasingly find distasteful like science
    (but not computer science). Besides majoring in STEM kills your social life. Another issue
    is that the entry of women and nonwhites into any academic field lowers its social status.
    Besides, Darwinism and decline of Christianity undermine the faith that the Universe was
    created by God, and is perhaps a botched science experiment by a third-grader in some higher
    dimension. If the Universe doesn’t reflect the Glory of God, then why study it? It can only undermine your faith

  218. @Opinionator
    I don't see the problem with the first prong of your "double problem." The "great students" who are rejected by the top-ranked schools go on to attend the next tier of schools. It's not as if the faculty at these next tier schools are chopped liver.

    I agree it is not really a problem for the student who doesn’t get into the Ivies but gets into Hopkins or Georgtown or NYU or Northwestern.

    But one tier down from that it is a problem.

    For example the student who doesn’t get into Hopkins or Georgetown or NYU or Northwestern anymore (although they would have 15 years ago) and has to just go to Penn State (#1 party school for about a decade running) or SUNY Albany (home of the famous racist bus non-attack) or Rutgers. Or the many students who are now not getting into any of the University of Californias and have to go to Chico State or Cal State LA or some other godawful thug/party campus. These students will simply be denied the opportunities for intellectual and career enrichment that they would have had 15 years ago.

  219. @Opinionator
    So what's your secret?

    The secret to my success?

    Although George Mason is a huge university today that recruits Nobel Prize winners for it’s faculty, I went there in its second full year of operation. There were only about 250 students in the whole school at the beginning of each semester. At the end of the academic year there were only about one hundred.

    Even with this tiny student body the school constructed its classes according to the University of Virginia at Charlottesville guidelines. The classes were real classes but there wasn’t much competition from the other students. And not all of the students who they could manage to get were quite top notch.

    There’s a lot to be said for attending a small school. It certainly helps with your self esteem.

    • Replies: @Truth

    There’s a lot to be said for attending a small school. It certainly helps with your self esteem.
     
    From reading your posts, it seems to have been quite beneficial in that area.
  220. @Stan Adams
    Have you ever played any of the old Infocom text adventure games? They had no graphics and were almost like interactive novels. Some of them were surprisingly intricate. By early-'80s standards, the Infocom parser was extremely sophisticated. (Half of the fun of these games was typing outrageous commands to see if the programmers had anticipated such zany input.)

    Adding to the games' depth were "feelies" - materials that Infocom included in the box to try to add to the authenticity of the game-playing experience.

    One of the last titles the company produced before being swallowed up and dismantled by Activision was the pseudo-Lovecraftian The Lurking Horror (1987). It was set at "G.U.E. Tech," a thinly-veiled stand-in for MIT.

    One of the feelies for TLH was a "G.U.E. Guide for Freshmen":
    http://gallery.guetech.org/lurking/lurking.html

    This quote from the guide is somewhat funny, if you have a morbid sense of humor:

    In spite of what your roommate will tell you, G.U.E. Tech does not have the highest suicide rate in the country. However, it *is* a high-pressure school. While you're wondering what happened to the distraught student who used to sit next to you in Introductory Calculus, you might also be wondering how you're going to get through midterms without cracking up.
     
    To give you an idea of how these games worked, here's a transcript from Deadline (1982), in which the player assumes the role of a detective investigating a businessman's apparent suicide:

    >w
    End of Hallway
    This is the west end of the upstairs hall. To the north is the library, where Mr. Robner was found. Its solid oak door has been knocked down and is lying just inside the entrance to the library. A window which cannot be opened is at the end of the hallway.

    >open window
    You must be very clever to do that to the window.

    >smash window
    What do you want to smash the window with?

    >inventory
    You are empty-handed.

    >n
    Library
    This is the library where Mr. Robner's body was found. It is decorated in a simple but comfortable style. Mr. Robner obviously spent a great deal of time here. A wide executive desk sits before tall balcony windows which lie at the north of the room. A telephone is sitting on the desk. The east side of the room is composed of three large bookshelf units containing numerous volumes on many topics. The floor is carpeted from wall to wall. The massive oak door which blocked the entrance has been forcibly knocked off its hinges and is lying by the doorway.
    A pencil is lying on the floor near the desk.
    Beside the desk is a large collapsible tray.
    Sitting on the tray is a bowl containing a white powdery substance.
    Alongside the desk is a wicker wastepaper basket.
    The wastepaper basket contains:
    * A bunch of crumpled papers
    Lying on the floor, overturned, is a beautiful saucer.
    Turned onto its side, lying on the floor, is a beautiful teacup.
    Lying atop the desk is a pad of white note paper.
    A desk calendar is here, open to July 7.
    There is a bottle of Ebullion here.

    >pick up pencil and pad
    pencil: Taken.
    note pad: Taken.

    >rub pencil on pad
    Shading the paper with the pencil reveals impressions left by writing on the previous sheet. The writer must borne [sic] down heavily, but only a few words come out clearly:

    Baxter,

    st time
    nsist / op / merg
    mnidy / Oth
    forc
    ocumen / y / poss
    plica / y / Focus s
    recons
    late!
    - rsha

    >open balcony door
    The balcony door is now open.

    >n
    Library Balcony
    The balcony is bare of furniture, though it has a beautiful view of the rose garden, the north lawn and the lake. A metal railing around the balcony prevents an accidental drop to the thorny roses below. The window between the balcony and the library is open.
    Away to the north, Mr. McNabb can be seen picking weeds.

    >look at railing
    The railing is made of a sturdy metal and helps prevent nasty falls. There is a small area of paint scraped off the outside edge.

    >look at window
    The balcony door is open, but you can't tell what's beyond it.

    >jump
    For a brief moment, you feel the exhilaration of free fall. A thought hits you: the ground is moving toward me. It is your last thought.

    [DOS prompt]
     

    I miss those old text adventure games. There’s still an underground community writing them, and I’m tempted to participate again. It scratches both my writing as well as my game-development itch.

  221. @Stan Adams
    Have you ever played any of the old Infocom text adventure games? They had no graphics and were almost like interactive novels. Some of them were surprisingly intricate. By early-'80s standards, the Infocom parser was extremely sophisticated. (Half of the fun of these games was typing outrageous commands to see if the programmers had anticipated such zany input.)

    Adding to the games' depth were "feelies" - materials that Infocom included in the box to try to add to the authenticity of the game-playing experience.

    One of the last titles the company produced before being swallowed up and dismantled by Activision was the pseudo-Lovecraftian The Lurking Horror (1987). It was set at "G.U.E. Tech," a thinly-veiled stand-in for MIT.

    One of the feelies for TLH was a "G.U.E. Guide for Freshmen":
    http://gallery.guetech.org/lurking/lurking.html

    This quote from the guide is somewhat funny, if you have a morbid sense of humor:

    In spite of what your roommate will tell you, G.U.E. Tech does not have the highest suicide rate in the country. However, it *is* a high-pressure school. While you're wondering what happened to the distraught student who used to sit next to you in Introductory Calculus, you might also be wondering how you're going to get through midterms without cracking up.
     
    To give you an idea of how these games worked, here's a transcript from Deadline (1982), in which the player assumes the role of a detective investigating a businessman's apparent suicide:

    >w
    End of Hallway
    This is the west end of the upstairs hall. To the north is the library, where Mr. Robner was found. Its solid oak door has been knocked down and is lying just inside the entrance to the library. A window which cannot be opened is at the end of the hallway.

    >open window
    You must be very clever to do that to the window.

    >smash window
    What do you want to smash the window with?

    >inventory
    You are empty-handed.

    >n
    Library
    This is the library where Mr. Robner's body was found. It is decorated in a simple but comfortable style. Mr. Robner obviously spent a great deal of time here. A wide executive desk sits before tall balcony windows which lie at the north of the room. A telephone is sitting on the desk. The east side of the room is composed of three large bookshelf units containing numerous volumes on many topics. The floor is carpeted from wall to wall. The massive oak door which blocked the entrance has been forcibly knocked off its hinges and is lying by the doorway.
    A pencil is lying on the floor near the desk.
    Beside the desk is a large collapsible tray.
    Sitting on the tray is a bowl containing a white powdery substance.
    Alongside the desk is a wicker wastepaper basket.
    The wastepaper basket contains:
    * A bunch of crumpled papers
    Lying on the floor, overturned, is a beautiful saucer.
    Turned onto its side, lying on the floor, is a beautiful teacup.
    Lying atop the desk is a pad of white note paper.
    A desk calendar is here, open to July 7.
    There is a bottle of Ebullion here.

    >pick up pencil and pad
    pencil: Taken.
    note pad: Taken.

    >rub pencil on pad
    Shading the paper with the pencil reveals impressions left by writing on the previous sheet. The writer must borne [sic] down heavily, but only a few words come out clearly:

    Baxter,

    st time
    nsist / op / merg
    mnidy / Oth
    forc
    ocumen / y / poss
    plica / y / Focus s
    recons
    late!
    - rsha

    >open balcony door
    The balcony door is now open.

    >n
    Library Balcony
    The balcony is bare of furniture, though it has a beautiful view of the rose garden, the north lawn and the lake. A metal railing around the balcony prevents an accidental drop to the thorny roses below. The window between the balcony and the library is open.
    Away to the north, Mr. McNabb can be seen picking weeds.

    >look at railing
    The railing is made of a sturdy metal and helps prevent nasty falls. There is a small area of paint scraped off the outside edge.

    >look at window
    The balcony door is open, but you can't tell what's beyond it.

    >jump
    For a brief moment, you feel the exhilaration of free fall. A thought hits you: the ground is moving toward me. It is your last thought.

    [DOS prompt]
     

    How did I miss that?! Thanks! It is available at http://www.myabandonware.com/game/the-lurking-horror-bn
    Lots of executables available (e.g. to play locally in DOSBox) or can play in your browser if you change the executable to lurking.bat

    Perhaps something to play around with next winter. It would be fun to see how they rendered the steam tunnels.

    P.S. PDF manual (for the Amiga though) available at the link.

  222. Back in college, I dated a girl who went to MIT for her MRS degree in Communications. She ended up with a handsome engineer who went to work for Boeing, so her dad’s money was well spent.

  223. @cthulhu
    Embry-Riddle is a good school and practical oriented but not the equal of a Cal Poly SLO, Purdue, Texas A&M, etc.

    If you are a CA resident and your kid is smart and wants to go into engineering, especially aerospace or mechanical, Cal Poly SLO is the best value in the country - cheap and a top 20 school on anybody's list. If you're a Texas resident, A&M is about the same. But again, a smart and motivated student will be fine at any reasonable school. The only real advantage to a "name" school is it may help the graduate get an interview.

    CalPoly has 20k students. Embry-Riddle has 2.5k. So at the smaller school a student will get much more personal attention from professors. Doesn’t that count for something?

    We visited Cal Poly and it felt huge and impersonal.

    Embry-Riddle was very conservative, too. Full of Air Force ROTC and Trump supporters.

    Difficult decision.

    • Replies: @cthulhu


    CalPoly has 20k students. Embry-Riddle has 2.5k. So at the smaller school a student will get much more personal attention from professors. Doesn’t that count for something?

     

    Short answer: not really for undergrad, unless the student's motivation is majorly affected. Some students do a lot better at smaller schools; some prefer the bigger pool of a larger campus. It's an individual thing.

    Slightly longer answer: Nowhere near all of those 20k Cal Poly SLO students are in engineering, and the school is part of the Cal State system, i.e., a teaching school not a research university. Everyone I know who went there for engineering loved it. That's my anecdata, anyway.
    , @Anonymous
    We toured Cal Poly SLO at their Admitted Student University Welcome/Open House a couple of weeks ago. The freshman girl who took us a tour of her dorm told us that classes in your major are capped at 100, are often around 40 people, and the english class she was currently taking had 22 kids in it - smaller than her (and my son's) high school class.

    If you look at reviews on Unigo dot com (Niche is another site) you'll get a feel for the student body/campus atmosphere. The college strikes me as rather conservative - conservative enough for me, anyway, which was definitely a consideration in the schools I steered my son towards. The ROTC program was on full display at Open House.

    For what it's worth, I worked at a very large Socal aerospace company and never worked with an Embry grad. The CP SLO engineers I've worked with have been very solid.

  224. Working in high-tech in greater Boston for the last 35 years, we saw this a few times. One woman my wife worked with at a major mini-computer manufacturer told her she “cried her way through M.I.T.”.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    If you think about it, even under conditions where women are selected purely based on merit, they are mostly going to have a rough time of it at a place like MIT.

    Suppose (as was true a number of decades ago) women were admitted to MIT only based on merit. Generously, 20% of a class might be women who make the grade under those conditions. It might seem that they would fare as well as men on average in that case. But this isn't so, because:

    1. women will still mostly occupy the lower rungs of ability within the MIT -- that's the way normal curves work. The 20% won't be uniformly distributed across the range of abilities at MIT.
    2. women, on average, care much more about doing well in terms of grades than men
    3. women, on average, are much more inclined to depression and low self-esteem than men
    4. women have very few fellow women with whom they can commiserate -- a big deal especially for women

    Put this picture together, you've got a lot of really miserable women

    The irony of the move toward Affirmative Action is that it is the white and Asian men who have the most to gain in terms of college experience. Getting good grades is much easier for them, because they are competing against less capable students on average. They have more women around, which is a big boon especially for the socially inept. There is a natural, if unspoken, bartering of homework assistance for sexual favors (don't blush! it happens! they think they're in love!) And the women also seem to profit, relative to the situation in which they are selected purely for ability but a very small in number -- they have more other women in their situation, and together bring down the curve in many classes so that most of their grades may not be so bad.

    Of course, the ones who really suffer in these situations are black AA students. They occupy a very small portion of the class, and they are at the very bottom. They are reminded in every class and every discussion that they don't catch on the way other students do.

    That's got to take a toll.

  225. @Anonymous Nephew
    A thought - could a girl not apply for a STEM place at a top college, then half way through term 1 ask to change to the course she actually wants to do (and which she would not have been accepted for because competition)?

    Capital idea. We need to creatively identify and propogate more and ways to play the rigged game, the same way the children of Michael Jordan doubtless vie for affirmative action as underprivileged “minorities” and wealthy immigrants from India scam subsidies from the SBA because they are dusky.

    More ideas like these please!

  226. @LiveFreeOrDie
    Working in high-tech in greater Boston for the last 35 years, we saw this a few times. One woman my wife worked with at a major mini-computer manufacturer told her she "cried her way through M.I.T.".

    If you think about it, even under conditions where women are selected purely based on merit, they are mostly going to have a rough time of it at a place like MIT.

    Suppose (as was true a number of decades ago) women were admitted to MIT only based on merit. Generously, 20% of a class might be women who make the grade under those conditions. It might seem that they would fare as well as men on average in that case. But this isn’t so, because:

    1. women will still mostly occupy the lower rungs of ability within the MIT — that’s the way normal curves work. The 20% won’t be uniformly distributed across the range of abilities at MIT.
    2. women, on average, care much more about doing well in terms of grades than men
    3. women, on average, are much more inclined to depression and low self-esteem than men
    4. women have very few fellow women with whom they can commiserate — a big deal especially for women

    Put this picture together, you’ve got a lot of really miserable women

    The irony of the move toward Affirmative Action is that it is the white and Asian men who have the most to gain in terms of college experience. Getting good grades is much easier for them, because they are competing against less capable students on average. They have more women around, which is a big boon especially for the socially inept. There is a natural, if unspoken, bartering of homework assistance for sexual favors (don’t blush! it happens! they think they’re in love!) And the women also seem to profit, relative to the situation in which they are selected purely for ability but a very small in number — they have more other women in their situation, and together bring down the curve in many classes so that most of their grades may not be so bad.

    Of course, the ones who really suffer in these situations are black AA students. They occupy a very small portion of the class, and they are at the very bottom. They are reminded in every class and every discussion that they don’t catch on the way other students do.

    That’s got to take a toll.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    4. women have very few fellow women with whom they can commiserate — a big deal especially for women.

    Where do you get this idea?
    , @Jack D
    We don't have good stats for the # of MIT students who are reduced to tears by their problem sets, but we have good #'s for those who off themselves. In the bad old days, it was male students who were more likely to kill themselves, even adjusted for the fact that there were a lot more male students:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N6/comp6.6n.html

    MIT hands out problem sets (aka homework) that is purposely too difficult for one person to solve because they want you to get used to the idea of collaboration - science isn't usually done anymore by a lone genius in a garret. Women are much better at making social connections than men, especially nerdy E. Asian men. Nerdy E. Asian men are precisely the kind of guys who are too proud to ask for help - they will succeed or they will literally kill themselves trying.

    A few years ago, a male Japanese-American MIT student was found dead in his room. He had been dead for several days but no one noticed, not even his suite mates.
  227. @Autochthon

    There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black.
     
    And so ends his mother's entire line, as definitively as if she had never borne a child at all.

    The overhwelming majority (I'd guess ninety-nine per cent) of such people take this attitude, and it belies a similar point made a while ago by Mr. Derbyshire.

    Mr. Derbyshire pointed out that the nonsense claims from leftists that they are oppressed and afraid and so forth is disproved on its face because if they trult were so, the last thing in the world they would so is openly talk about the matter, defy the government via protests and marches, and so on. These people go on national television and drone on and on about how they genuinely fear for their very lives following Mr. Trump's election; they run full-page adverts and editorials im The New York Times. It's silly.

    Do you believe for one moment anyone in a genuinely repressive and dangerous place would do such things? In North Korea? Stalin's Russia? Heck, I bet it would be difficuly if not impossible to thus denounce and insult the ruling Saudi family in Arabia.

    If the Western governments, employers, and others in positions of power were truly dangerous and oppressive to blacks (and mestizos, Asians, Arabs, etc.) they would perforce not fall over themselves to move not just move to our countries, but into the whitest parts of our countries they possibly can. They certainly wouldn't carry on as they do. In an actually dangerous and oppressive state that had it in for black people, Al Sharpton and Jease Jackson would long since have been disappeared by governmental death squads. There certainly would not be a big statue of Martin King on the national mall. And so on.

    Ironically, the actual oppression and danger to both black people and these mulattos (and, Hell's bells, even white people) comes from black people! It is black people who publicly spout racist and hateful things against white people with impunity. It is white people the government proactively oppresses and discriminates against via so-called "affirmative action" and similar shemes. It is black people who would mock, taunt, and probably even assault Bernard and his ilk were they to openly claim their white ancestry as mulattos, much less if they were to claim to be only white the same way they currently claim to be only black.

    Whiny mulattos like the guy Bernard and Barry Obama would scramble to emphasize that their mothers are white and claim themselves to be white, as well, rather than black. Even if they decided the genetic dominance of dark skin over recessive white skin precluded this approach, they would at least emphasize that they are mulattos and not truly blacks.

    Note too that it damn near always the mother who is the "oppressor" race when miscegenation occurs, another complete inversion of reality: in actual cases of oppression and subjugation the ruling men take the women from those they overpower, as happened for example with the conquistadors in America. (I'll warrant the genetic profiles of mestizos indicate nearly all of their male ancestors are all Europeans and their female ancestors Indios....)

    Returning to Bernard's words: he has utter contempt for his mother's line and her people; she herself hates them, in a supreme display of miserable self-loathing, and has toiled to instill that contempt and hatred in her mulatto child.
    This phenomenon is why there can be no hippy-dippy world where all races are treated equally as a result of miscegenation, as some who advocate for it would have us believe. Invariably the mulatto, mestizo, and otherwise half-breed children reject, despise, and even proacrively seek to destroy their own white forebears. Happas seem
    to often be an exception presently, but mark my words: as Asians increasingly join the racket for cash and prizes by clamoring "I too am aggreived and oppressed and in danger!" (and they are doing so, having realises the game is very lucrative indeed...), the exception will decline, and they will also denounce their own white ancestors.

    For these reasons, nevermind the destruction of biodiversity, many of us oppose miscegenation; our rejection is completely rational and reasoned because of the demonstravly negative outcomes. Yet opponents of the position would have you believe we are all of us raving lunatics in the style of Hitler and Goebbels. I wish black people success and long life. I just don't want them destroying white people to achieve it.

    Mr. Derbyshire pointed out that the nonsense claims from leftists that they are oppressed and afraid and so forth is disproved on its face because if they trult were so, the last thing in the world they would so is openly talk about the matter, defy the government via protests and marches, and so on. These people go on national television and drone on and on about how they genuinely fear for their very lives following Mr. Trump’s election; they run full-page adverts and editorials im The New York Times. It’s silly.

    How do we get this argument into the national consciousness? It is so obviously true I don’t see how any thinking person can ignore it.

    • Replies: @guest
    You ignore it by simply ignoring it. That's the easiest thing in the world to do.
  228. @Stan Adams
    Women are, on average, more diligent and dutiful than men. Their temperament is better suited to the academic grind. Their tolerance for boredom is higher. They make excellent worker drones.

    But there is a point beyond which slavish female diligence, without the raw brainpower to back it up, simply is not sufficient to allow one to compete. In this realm, it truly is a man's world. Men predominate at the very high end (and at the very low end) of the IQ spectrum.

    (This is the argument that Larry Summers tried to make, for which he was excoriated.)

    It is men, not women, who create new worlds and forge new paths. All of the technologies with which we are communicating - computers, telecommunications, and so forth - were invented by men.

    In my experience, high-performing female students are most adept at memorizing and regurgitating information and absorbing insights generated by greater minds than theirs. They tend to be more bright than brilliant.

    Once a woman has built a mental template of some facet of reality, she will go through life mapping her observations of the real world onto that template. But if the template is flawed - as it surely is if she has received the full dose of multiculti indoctrination - then she will be forced to twist and distort her perceptions of reality to make them comport with her view of how the world supposedly operates. The idea that it might be prudent to modify the template so that it better reflects the true state of affairs does not occur to her; if a man impudently suggests that she should reconsider her viewpoint, she feels insulted and lashes out in anger.

    Women are capable of elaborate feats of mental gymnastics that allow them to reassure themselves that the fundamental beliefs they have been taught are correct, regardless of any and all incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. A woman can make herself believe that 2 + 2 is 5 not because she is ignorant of basic arithmetic, but because she has convinced herself that 5 is actually 4.

    Lest you misunderstand me, I'm not denying the usefulness of women to the modern economy - they supply much of the grease that keeps the corporate machinery humming. But I hasten to point out that all of that machinery was built by men.

    Women are mostly useful to a modern economy as consumers. They buy 80% of the crap being produced.

  229. @candid_observer
    If you think about it, even under conditions where women are selected purely based on merit, they are mostly going to have a rough time of it at a place like MIT.

    Suppose (as was true a number of decades ago) women were admitted to MIT only based on merit. Generously, 20% of a class might be women who make the grade under those conditions. It might seem that they would fare as well as men on average in that case. But this isn't so, because:

    1. women will still mostly occupy the lower rungs of ability within the MIT -- that's the way normal curves work. The 20% won't be uniformly distributed across the range of abilities at MIT.
    2. women, on average, care much more about doing well in terms of grades than men
    3. women, on average, are much more inclined to depression and low self-esteem than men
    4. women have very few fellow women with whom they can commiserate -- a big deal especially for women

    Put this picture together, you've got a lot of really miserable women

    The irony of the move toward Affirmative Action is that it is the white and Asian men who have the most to gain in terms of college experience. Getting good grades is much easier for them, because they are competing against less capable students on average. They have more women around, which is a big boon especially for the socially inept. There is a natural, if unspoken, bartering of homework assistance for sexual favors (don't blush! it happens! they think they're in love!) And the women also seem to profit, relative to the situation in which they are selected purely for ability but a very small in number -- they have more other women in their situation, and together bring down the curve in many classes so that most of their grades may not be so bad.

    Of course, the ones who really suffer in these situations are black AA students. They occupy a very small portion of the class, and they are at the very bottom. They are reminded in every class and every discussion that they don't catch on the way other students do.

    That's got to take a toll.

    4. women have very few fellow women with whom they can commiserate — a big deal especially for women.

    Where do you get this idea?

  230. Ivy League colleges should be called Poison Ivies

  231. @candid_observer
    If you think about it, even under conditions where women are selected purely based on merit, they are mostly going to have a rough time of it at a place like MIT.

    Suppose (as was true a number of decades ago) women were admitted to MIT only based on merit. Generously, 20% of a class might be women who make the grade under those conditions. It might seem that they would fare as well as men on average in that case. But this isn't so, because:

    1. women will still mostly occupy the lower rungs of ability within the MIT -- that's the way normal curves work. The 20% won't be uniformly distributed across the range of abilities at MIT.
    2. women, on average, care much more about doing well in terms of grades than men
    3. women, on average, are much more inclined to depression and low self-esteem than men
    4. women have very few fellow women with whom they can commiserate -- a big deal especially for women

    Put this picture together, you've got a lot of really miserable women

    The irony of the move toward Affirmative Action is that it is the white and Asian men who have the most to gain in terms of college experience. Getting good grades is much easier for them, because they are competing against less capable students on average. They have more women around, which is a big boon especially for the socially inept. There is a natural, if unspoken, bartering of homework assistance for sexual favors (don't blush! it happens! they think they're in love!) And the women also seem to profit, relative to the situation in which they are selected purely for ability but a very small in number -- they have more other women in their situation, and together bring down the curve in many classes so that most of their grades may not be so bad.

    Of course, the ones who really suffer in these situations are black AA students. They occupy a very small portion of the class, and they are at the very bottom. They are reminded in every class and every discussion that they don't catch on the way other students do.

    That's got to take a toll.

    We don’t have good stats for the # of MIT students who are reduced to tears by their problem sets, but we have good #’s for those who off themselves. In the bad old days, it was male students who were more likely to kill themselves, even adjusted for the fact that there were a lot more male students:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N6/comp6.6n.html

    MIT hands out problem sets (aka homework) that is purposely too difficult for one person to solve because they want you to get used to the idea of collaboration – science isn’t usually done anymore by a lone genius in a garret. Women are much better at making social connections than men, especially nerdy E. Asian men. Nerdy E. Asian men are precisely the kind of guys who are too proud to ask for help – they will succeed or they will literally kill themselves trying.

    A few years ago, a male Japanese-American MIT student was found dead in his room. He had been dead for several days but no one noticed, not even his suite mates.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    According to your link,

    ...females at MIT commit suicide at a rate of 6.3 per 100,000 female student years. This compares to a rate of male student suicides at MIT of 16.6 per 100,000 male student years.
     
    But at the national level, in year 1999 (probably a fair comparison year for the stats in your link, which was published in 2000), in the ages between 15-24, females committed suicide at a rate of 3.0 per 100,000, and males at a rate of 16.8 per 100,000. See:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/suicide/rates_1999_2014.pdf

    I'm not sure that comparative suicide rates are going to tell us that much about the relative average levels of misery of males vs females at MIT. But MIT males don't seem to be doing worse, relatively, than American males in general, while MIT females do seem to be doing worse than American females in general.

  232. @Daniel Chieh
    I always wonder why occult chinky magic that the Japanese use that they still have basically completely gender-defined roles and yet maintain a first world country. Clearly the same kind of magic that 1970s America had, when houses were still affordable for a working man with a stay-at-home wife. Surely no one would suggest that increasing the supply of labor might actually decrease real wages, inflate prices and serve to endlessly feed bureaucratic intervention for "diversity."

    That would be unthinkable.

    No, its just occult magic that migrated from the West to the East around the 1970s, as sure as magnetic poles flip.

    Judging by their birth rates, the defined gender roles for Japanese women apparently don’t include child bearing.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Having kids is the stuff done by country bumpkins. Extinction is the new cool if you're smart. Gotta keep up with the memes, man.
  233. @Daniel Chieh
    Her family was old-school Catholic; she isn't religious herself. But she was pretty traditional in her mores and I'm lucky to be able to find someone like that. Her mother was a housewife, so in that sense, she had a good inspiration but also got to learn from the mistakes of her many elder sisters.

    One of her elder sisters didn't want to work and became a drifter living off welfare and men, successfully ticking off the checkboxes to become white trash. Another went into the endless college churn, living off loans before dropping out and getting married, no children. Yet another completed an advanced degree, went into the field her father was in, and has since gone completely insane with severe schizoid symptoms. On the days when the voices aren't talking too much to her, she's a massive progressive. She hasn't worked in two years at least.

    Evidently as a young girl, my wife told her mother that she wanted to be a housewife and stuck to it throughout her life despite some difficulties.

    PS: Though, that said, her brother isn't doing much better. After an engineering degree and a stint at Microsoft, he dropped out of society and is living off pot, alcohol, and the glorious Canadian welfare system. Hooray.

    PPS: As much as they don't sound like the Glory of the Quebecois, they are surprisingly wealthy. Their family stretches back to the original settlers with Gen. Montecalm, includes quite a few successful individuals who bought stretches of land in both Canada and the US. I guess modern life hasn't killed off their failures fast enough, though..heh.

    Almost all of the millions of Quebecois are descended from a few thousand French settlers. It’s proof of the magic of exponential functions.

  234. @Jack D
    Judging by their birth rates, the defined gender roles for Japanese women apparently don't include child bearing.

    Having kids is the stuff done by country bumpkins. Extinction is the new cool if you’re smart. Gotta keep up with the memes, man.

  235. @Jack D
    We don't have good stats for the # of MIT students who are reduced to tears by their problem sets, but we have good #'s for those who off themselves. In the bad old days, it was male students who were more likely to kill themselves, even adjusted for the fact that there were a lot more male students:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N6/comp6.6n.html

    MIT hands out problem sets (aka homework) that is purposely too difficult for one person to solve because they want you to get used to the idea of collaboration - science isn't usually done anymore by a lone genius in a garret. Women are much better at making social connections than men, especially nerdy E. Asian men. Nerdy E. Asian men are precisely the kind of guys who are too proud to ask for help - they will succeed or they will literally kill themselves trying.

    A few years ago, a male Japanese-American MIT student was found dead in his room. He had been dead for several days but no one noticed, not even his suite mates.

    According to your link,

    …females at MIT commit suicide at a rate of 6.3 per 100,000 female student years. This compares to a rate of male student suicides at MIT of 16.6 per 100,000 male student years.

    But at the national level, in year 1999 (probably a fair comparison year for the stats in your link, which was published in 2000), in the ages between 15-24, females committed suicide at a rate of 3.0 per 100,000, and males at a rate of 16.8 per 100,000. See:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/suicide/rates_1999_2014.pdf

    I’m not sure that comparative suicide rates are going to tell us that much about the relative average levels of misery of males vs females at MIT. But MIT males don’t seem to be doing worse, relatively, than American males in general, while MIT females do seem to be doing worse than American females in general.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Women ATTEMPT suicide more often than men but men "SUCCEED" in killing themselves with greater frequency. Maybe MIT women are just more effective at converting their suicide attempts to actual suicide than the average woman?
  236. @Opinionator
    So what's your secret?

    Certainly not modesty.

    • LOL: Autochthon
  237. @candid_observer
    According to your link,

    ...females at MIT commit suicide at a rate of 6.3 per 100,000 female student years. This compares to a rate of male student suicides at MIT of 16.6 per 100,000 male student years.
     
    But at the national level, in year 1999 (probably a fair comparison year for the stats in your link, which was published in 2000), in the ages between 15-24, females committed suicide at a rate of 3.0 per 100,000, and males at a rate of 16.8 per 100,000. See:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/suicide/rates_1999_2014.pdf

    I'm not sure that comparative suicide rates are going to tell us that much about the relative average levels of misery of males vs females at MIT. But MIT males don't seem to be doing worse, relatively, than American males in general, while MIT females do seem to be doing worse than American females in general.

    Women ATTEMPT suicide more often than men but men “SUCCEED” in killing themselves with greater frequency. Maybe MIT women are just more effective at converting their suicide attempts to actual suicide than the average woman?

    • Replies: @NOTA
    Damn, that's both plausible and depressing as hell.
    , @Triumph104
    Anecdote:

    Despite having a boyfriend, MIT student Julia Carpenter was repeatedly harassed by a guy in her dorm for a romantic relationship. Carpenter goes through the proper channels and the guy was temporarily placed in another dorm. After he did not dispute the allegations against him, a decision was made to eventually allow him back into Carpenter's dorm.

    When Carpenter reads the decision she goes on the internet and buys sodium cyanide. After receiving the cyanide, she waits two days before killing herself. Immediately after her death her boyfriend reports that he was aware that she had the cyanide but didn't think she would use it to commit suicide.

    http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N36/36timeline.html

    Karpe allegedly persisted in pursuing a romantic relationship with Carpenter. According to the lawsuit filing, Karpe slept in a lounge outside Carpenter’s room and stole a video of Carpenter having sex with her boyfriend. The video was allegedly shown to other students.

    “I didn’t mean any harm, and it wasn’t meant to be doing anything to her,” Karpe said in an interview with The Tech in 2003. “I feel that many of the things I did back then don’t make sense to me anymore. I look back and see how confused I was at the time, and now, I can see what happened and it made so much more sense and I can see what I did was wrong.”

    ... According to a 2001 e-mail from Zev Arnold, Carpenter’s boyfriend who attended Washington University in St. Louis at the time, the decision of the review panel was that Karpe would be allowed back into Random Hall provided he read several books on and wrote an essay about “how it ‘feels’ to be a victim” and sought optional therapy.
     
    http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N36/36carpenter.html
    , @WowJustWow
    Or, women are more likely to attempt suicide to get attention, while men are more likely to sincerely desire death.
  238. @Bill P
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I'm not so sure she'd find that at MIT or Caltech. Or the Ivies, for that matter. I want vigorous, bouncing grandkids someday, but I shudder at the thought of what she might bring back from those places.

    No, I'd rather she spends time with earnest white jocks who like hunting, hiking and fishing in their spare time.

    My sons, on the other hand, can go in for all the nerdy pursuits they want. In their case at least I can influence them in a manly direction.

    Bill P says:
    April 24, 2017 at 1:33 am GMT • 100 Words
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I’m not so sure she’d find that at MIT or Caltech.

    Bill – try Stanford, great combination of brains and D1 athletics – see, for example, Christian McCaffrey. I’ve never met a Stanford athlete (football, basketball, baseball) that I didn’t like. They are first class kids.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Even the rapists on the swimming team?
  239. @Larry, San Francisco
    20 years ago, I did an evaluation of grades by gender at the school I was teaching at. I found that women had a higher GPA then men in every major! Although the gender ratios of classes did vary by major (engineering women did quite well but there weren't too many of them). One time I was stuck at the Business School awards. I found it interesting that although women were 1/3 of the majors they had won 3/4 of the awards. I am not sure if that result holds every where but I do know that women are on average significantly better students at most colleges.

    Schools have been totally chickified, top to bottom. They ought to dominate it, but they only just do marginally better, not counting areas where they simply can’t compete.

  240. @res

    Mr. Derbyshire pointed out that the nonsense claims from leftists that they are oppressed and afraid and so forth is disproved on its face because if they trult were so, the last thing in the world they would so is openly talk about the matter, defy the government via protests and marches, and so on. These people go on national television and drone on and on about how they genuinely fear for their very lives following Mr. Trump’s election; they run full-page adverts and editorials im The New York Times. It’s silly.
     
    How do we get this argument into the national consciousness? It is so obviously true I don't see how any thinking person can ignore it.

    You ignore it by simply ignoring it. That’s the easiest thing in the world to do.

  241. @Pat Boyle
    The secret to my success?

    Although George Mason is a huge university today that recruits Nobel Prize winners for it's faculty, I went there in its second full year of operation. There were only about 250 students in the whole school at the beginning of each semester. At the end of the academic year there were only about one hundred.

    Even with this tiny student body the school constructed its classes according to the University of Virginia at Charlottesville guidelines. The classes were real classes but there wasn't much competition from the other students. And not all of the students who they could manage to get were quite top notch.

    There's a lot to be said for attending a small school. It certainly helps with your self esteem.

    There’s a lot to be said for attending a small school. It certainly helps with your self esteem.

    From reading your posts, it seems to have been quite beneficial in that area.

  242. @Jack D
    Women ATTEMPT suicide more often than men but men "SUCCEED" in killing themselves with greater frequency. Maybe MIT women are just more effective at converting their suicide attempts to actual suicide than the average woman?

    Damn, that’s both plausible and depressing as hell.

  243. @Jack D
    Women ATTEMPT suicide more often than men but men "SUCCEED" in killing themselves with greater frequency. Maybe MIT women are just more effective at converting their suicide attempts to actual suicide than the average woman?

    Anecdote:

    Despite having a boyfriend, MIT student Julia Carpenter was repeatedly harassed by a guy in her dorm for a romantic relationship. Carpenter goes through the proper channels and the guy was temporarily placed in another dorm. After he did not dispute the allegations against him, a decision was made to eventually allow him back into Carpenter’s dorm.

    When Carpenter reads the decision she goes on the internet and buys sodium cyanide. After receiving the cyanide, she waits two days before killing herself. Immediately after her death her boyfriend reports that he was aware that she had the cyanide but didn’t think she would use it to commit suicide.

    http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N36/36timeline.html

    Karpe allegedly persisted in pursuing a romantic relationship with Carpenter. According to the lawsuit filing, Karpe slept in a lounge outside Carpenter’s room and stole a video of Carpenter having sex with her boyfriend. The video was allegedly shown to other students.

    “I didn’t mean any harm, and it wasn’t meant to be doing anything to her,” Karpe said in an interview with The Tech in 2003. “I feel that many of the things I did back then don’t make sense to me anymore. I look back and see how confused I was at the time, and now, I can see what happened and it made so much more sense and I can see what I did was wrong.”

    … According to a 2001 e-mail from Zev Arnold, Carpenter’s boyfriend who attended Washington University in St. Louis at the time, the decision of the review panel was that Karpe would be allowed back into Random Hall provided he read several books on and wrote an essay about “how it ‘feels’ to be a victim” and sought optional therapy.

    http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N36/36carpenter.html

  244. @map
    The biggest problem with engineering is that, like it or not, engineering schools are just glorified trade schools for people with higher math skills. I say this, btw, with the utmost respect for engineering because it is the highest expression of the "craft mentality" that we have going in America.

    The issue is that, at minimum, engineering is heavily commodified. What exactly is the difference between a mechanical or electrical engineer from CalTech, Stanford or MIT, and an engineering grad from any average engineering school...that is, the difference from the practical perspective of a company that has to build things to sell to customers that may not themselves be engineers?

    If you are ExxonMobil or Halliburton, would it not make sense to influence local universities to provide curricula that train the workforce you need for your company? Halliburton and Exxon would just tell Texas A&M and UT to teach this set of skills to their grads they would need to work at Exxon or Halliburton. Ditto for Raytheon, Motorola, Boeing, General Electric.

    Even if CalTech, MIT and Stanford genuinely have much smarter students than other places, is that extra brainpower really necessary for most corporate engineering work? Will companies continue paying a premium for this extra brainpower, when they can just bring in an H1B to run CAD/CAM machinery, or some similar job?

    It seems that CalTech, MIT, and Stanford engineering is geared toward a prestigious research academic career, much like the physical sciences. Except, for those who do not get into research but in practical areas, they are going to get into a grinding job where most of the practical work can be done by a lot of other people besides them. The extra training is just not necessary.

    Engineering looks like a very bifurcated career path for top kids at top schools. Choose research, and it appears to be a pretty celebrated path, although not as celebrated as the physical sciences, since cutting edge is required of that. Choose corporate work, which will not fund basic research, but, instead, incremental improvements in existing products to keep clients happy, and you will eventually get replaced by glorified machinists ot equivalent imported through the H1B program.

    If you are ExxonMobil or Halliburton, would it not make sense to influence local universities to provide curricula that train the workforce you need for your company?

    AT&T thinks so. They sponsored the online MS in Comp Sci at Georgia Tech

    Online Master of Science in Computer Science

    The tuition was (originally) $6,600 – but AT&T determined the curriculum.

    equivalent imported through the H1B program

    Well maybe, but the imports often do not work out as well as the myopic managers hope for. Look at, e.g., outsourcing customer support.

  245. @Formerly CARealist
    CalPoly has 20k students. Embry-Riddle has 2.5k. So at the smaller school a student will get much more personal attention from professors. Doesn't that count for something?

    We visited Cal Poly and it felt huge and impersonal.

    Embry-Riddle was very conservative, too. Full of Air Force ROTC and Trump supporters.

    Difficult decision.

    CalPoly has 20k students. Embry-Riddle has 2.5k. So at the smaller school a student will get much more personal attention from professors. Doesn’t that count for something?

    Short answer: not really for undergrad, unless the student’s motivation is majorly affected. Some students do a lot better at smaller schools; some prefer the bigger pool of a larger campus. It’s an individual thing.

    Slightly longer answer: Nowhere near all of those 20k Cal Poly SLO students are in engineering, and the school is part of the Cal State system, i.e., a teaching school not a research university. Everyone I know who went there for engineering loved it. That’s my anecdata, anyway.

  246. I shudder to think these pampered clowns will have power over us.

    http://yaledailynews.com/blog/category/opinion/

  247. A daughter of a close friend living in the Northeast is keenly interested in math and physics, and wants to be an aeronautical engineer. She applied to MIT and HYP, but overlooked Caltech.

    This is not uncommon, in my anecdotal experience, among many STEM oriented high-school students living in the East Coast. Stanford —and to a much lesser extent, Berkeley—is within their mental universe, but Caltech is, for some reason, invisible.

    Here is a reminder of why Caltech is not just any old school.

    https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    A daughter of a close friend living in the Northeast is keenly interested in math and physics, and wants to be an aeronautical engineer. She applied to MIT and HYP, but overlooked Caltech.

    This is not uncommon, in my anecdotal experience, among many STEM oriented high-school students living in the East Coast. Stanford —and to a much lesser extent, Berkeley—is within their mental universe, but Caltech is, for some reason, invisible.
     
    Caltech pursued me relentlessly and its admissions rep kept calling me day-in and day-out for several weeks.

    The brochures from the Ivy League universities had pictures of attractive people (girls) throwing a frisbee or frolicking on the lawn. The Caltech brochure had a picture of an Asian guy with rumpled hair and a white guy with very nerdy-looking glasses handling and poring over a test tube.

    I took one look and said "Oh, heck no." My parents were into "tradition" (i.e. Ivy) and supported my decision to pass on Caltech. That was about 30 years ago. I hope Caltech has a more attractive brochure now.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    I don't think Caltech has majors in aeronautics. That's not the school for those students.
  248. @Jus' Sayin'...
    I know about a half dozen people who flunked or dropped out of MIT and went on to highly successful tech careers. My brother - admittedly pretty smart - graduated from MIT in the mid 1970s and always claimed that it was actually much easier to get through the school than it looked on paper. For example, the 25 out of 100 points on the organic final actually translated into a B+/A-. I suspect that there are two kinds of students that MIT drives into nervous breakdowns: (1) the affirmative action admissions that just can't handle the program; and (2) the super grinds who cannot accept that they are in an environment where they are not always going to be even in the top 50% let alone the top 10%.

    My brother – admittedly pretty smart – graduated from MIT in the mid 1970s and always claimed that it was actually much easier to get through the school than it looked on paper.

    Your brother was dead right. I graduated MIT in 1970, and I didn’t know a single person in my freshman class who flunked or dropped out without graduating. I had a GPA of 4.5 (MIT used a 5 point scale) even though I did as little work as I could get away with and am not some Hawking-level genius.

  249. @Daniel Chieh
    I'm not sure if having later birth is a close proxy for college attendance. It could simply be the overall trend; my wife, for example, doesn't have a college degree but we didn't try for children until she was 26 due to income concerns. She was bugging me the whole time, though; I think if I had not married her when she was 20, we would have delayed children even longer.

    My experience is indeed that college degrees tend to discourage birth. Quite a few DINK friends.

    At any rate, later family formation promotes the likelihood of Down's Syndrome and other birth defects in children.

    The higher risk is after 35, not at 30-35. Later birth is a close proxy according to the data. Non-college moms have a kid early on, typically out of wedlock and sometimes one later, often within marriage on average.

    Married mothers tend towards having 2-4 starting around 26-28.

    It’s a mixed bag, there is a steady decline in first births, but once married people bite the bullet and have a first kid, they are increasingly having a second, third or fourth as the marriage goes on.

  250. @Formerly CARealist
    Do you have any opinion of a school named Embry Riddle in AZ? Aeronautics and Aerospace are their specialty.

    Do you have any opinion of a school named Embry Riddle in AZ? Aeronautics and Aerospace are their specialty.

    No, E.R.’s specialty is being a trade school to train future low wage regional airline pilots.

    If your loved ones want to be pilots, they should get their training in the U.S. mil.

    If they want to be engineers, they’d be better off at your in-state U. main campus.

    In short, don’t go to Embry Piddle.

  251. @PiltdownMan
    A daughter of a close friend living in the Northeast is keenly interested in math and physics, and wants to be an aeronautical engineer. She applied to MIT and HYP, but overlooked Caltech.

    This is not uncommon, in my anecdotal experience, among many STEM oriented high-school students living in the East Coast. Stanford —and to a much lesser extent, Berkeley—is within their mental universe, but Caltech is, for some reason, invisible.

    Here is a reminder of why Caltech is not just any old school.

    https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/

    A daughter of a close friend living in the Northeast is keenly interested in math and physics, and wants to be an aeronautical engineer. She applied to MIT and HYP, but overlooked Caltech.

    This is not uncommon, in my anecdotal experience, among many STEM oriented high-school students living in the East Coast. Stanford —and to a much lesser extent, Berkeley—is within their mental universe, but Caltech is, for some reason, invisible.

    Caltech pursued me relentlessly and its admissions rep kept calling me day-in and day-out for several weeks.

    The brochures from the Ivy League universities had pictures of attractive people (girls) throwing a frisbee or frolicking on the lawn. The Caltech brochure had a picture of an Asian guy with rumpled hair and a white guy with very nerdy-looking glasses handling and poring over a test tube.

    I took one look and said “Oh, heck no.” My parents were into “tradition” (i.e. Ivy) and supported my decision to pass on Caltech. That was about 30 years ago. I hope Caltech has a more attractive brochure now.

  252. @JimB
    An overgeneralization, to be sure. Send your daughter to a Catholic college or BYU, and there is a very decent chance they will graduate with an engagement ring.

    Send your daughter to a Catholic college or BYU, and there is a very decent chance they will graduate with an engagement ring.

    That would require her to be a faithful Catholic* or Mormon.

    *I am assuming you are referring to a real Catholic college rather than nominal ones such as Georgetown and Notre Dame.

  253. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Formerly CARealist
    CalPoly has 20k students. Embry-Riddle has 2.5k. So at the smaller school a student will get much more personal attention from professors. Doesn't that count for something?

    We visited Cal Poly and it felt huge and impersonal.

    Embry-Riddle was very conservative, too. Full of Air Force ROTC and Trump supporters.

    Difficult decision.

    We toured Cal Poly SLO at their Admitted Student University Welcome/Open House a couple of weeks ago. The freshman girl who took us a tour of her dorm told us that classes in your major are capped at 100, are often around 40 people, and the english class she was currently taking had 22 kids in it – smaller than her (and my son’s) high school class.

    If you look at reviews on Unigo dot com (Niche is another site) you’ll get a feel for the student body/campus atmosphere. The college strikes me as rather conservative – conservative enough for me, anyway, which was definitely a consideration in the schools I steered my son towards. The ROTC program was on full display at Open House.

    For what it’s worth, I worked at a very large Socal aerospace company and never worked with an Embry grad. The CP SLO engineers I’ve worked with have been very solid.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Also, Cal Poly SLO is in San Luis Obispo, which is a nice small city in beautiful countryside about 12 miles inland. The coast is kind of foggy and windy in central California, so the best place is to live just inland.
    , @Autochthon
    San Luis Obispo, Pizmo Beach, and Morro Bay (the county of San Luis Obispo generally) are an island of relative sanity amidst the sea of crazy to the north and south on California's coast; an unusually conservative and normal area of coastal California. I love it. Whenever I run the half-marathon in Morro Bay, families from the local churches prepare and serve a big real breakast on site for us: eggs, pancakes, sausage, etc. It's pretty crazy for such a small race, but you can tell it's because people in that area (so unusual in coastal California) genuinely care about community and families.

    And I can also attest SLO is an excellent school for engineering undergraduates, especially for mechanical and aeronautic specialties (maybe a but less prestigious for things like electronic and electrical engineering), and the engineers I know from there are both good people and competent. I even dated a gal who went there (though not for engineering) who was shockingly feminine and sensible for a woman in toxic San José).

    Your milage may vary, etc.

  254. @Anonymous
    We toured Cal Poly SLO at their Admitted Student University Welcome/Open House a couple of weeks ago. The freshman girl who took us a tour of her dorm told us that classes in your major are capped at 100, are often around 40 people, and the english class she was currently taking had 22 kids in it - smaller than her (and my son's) high school class.

    If you look at reviews on Unigo dot com (Niche is another site) you'll get a feel for the student body/campus atmosphere. The college strikes me as rather conservative - conservative enough for me, anyway, which was definitely a consideration in the schools I steered my son towards. The ROTC program was on full display at Open House.

    For what it's worth, I worked at a very large Socal aerospace company and never worked with an Embry grad. The CP SLO engineers I've worked with have been very solid.

    Also, Cal Poly SLO is in San Luis Obispo, which is a nice small city in beautiful countryside about 12 miles inland. The coast is kind of foggy and windy in central California, so the best place is to live just inland.

  255. @Jack D
    Women ATTEMPT suicide more often than men but men "SUCCEED" in killing themselves with greater frequency. Maybe MIT women are just more effective at converting their suicide attempts to actual suicide than the average woman?

    Or, women are more likely to attempt suicide to get attention, while men are more likely to sincerely desire death.

  256. @PiltdownMan
    A daughter of a close friend living in the Northeast is keenly interested in math and physics, and wants to be an aeronautical engineer. She applied to MIT and HYP, but overlooked Caltech.

    This is not uncommon, in my anecdotal experience, among many STEM oriented high-school students living in the East Coast. Stanford —and to a much lesser extent, Berkeley—is within their mental universe, but Caltech is, for some reason, invisible.

    Here is a reminder of why Caltech is not just any old school.

    https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/

    I don’t think Caltech has majors in aeronautics. That’s not the school for those students.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    I don’t think Caltech has majors in aeronautics. That’s not the school for those students.
     
    Caltech has a very well regarded Master's degree program in aeronautical engineering. But you are right. They have only a minor in Aeronautics at the undergraduate level, with the bulk of the requisite education residing in their undergraduate mechanical engineering major.

    While JPL is now famed for it's planetary science missions, it was named Jet Propulsion Lab for a reason. Caltech used to be the #1 school for aeronautical engineering when I was a high-school student. I'm not sure what the situation is today, but I expect it's not a downscale destination for an aspiring aeronautical engineer.
    , @Apollo
    http://galcit.caltech.edu/
  257. @Anonymous
    We toured Cal Poly SLO at their Admitted Student University Welcome/Open House a couple of weeks ago. The freshman girl who took us a tour of her dorm told us that classes in your major are capped at 100, are often around 40 people, and the english class she was currently taking had 22 kids in it - smaller than her (and my son's) high school class.

    If you look at reviews on Unigo dot com (Niche is another site) you'll get a feel for the student body/campus atmosphere. The college strikes me as rather conservative - conservative enough for me, anyway, which was definitely a consideration in the schools I steered my son towards. The ROTC program was on full display at Open House.

    For what it's worth, I worked at a very large Socal aerospace company and never worked with an Embry grad. The CP SLO engineers I've worked with have been very solid.

    San Luis Obispo, Pizmo Beach, and Morro Bay (the county of San Luis Obispo generally) are an island of relative sanity amidst the sea of crazy to the north and south on California’s coast; an unusually conservative and normal area of coastal California. I love it. Whenever I run the half-marathon in Morro Bay, families from the local churches prepare and serve a big real breakast on site for us: eggs, pancakes, sausage, etc. It’s pretty crazy for such a small race, but you can tell it’s because people in that area (so unusual in coastal California) genuinely care about community and families.

    And I can also attest SLO is an excellent school for engineering undergraduates, especially for mechanical and aeronautic specialties (maybe a but less prestigious for things like electronic and electrical engineering), and the engineers I know from there are both good people and competent. I even dated a gal who went there (though not for engineering) who was shockingly feminine and sensible for a woman in toxic San José).

    Your milage may vary, etc.

  258. @Formerly CARealist
    I don't think Caltech has majors in aeronautics. That's not the school for those students.

    I don’t think Caltech has majors in aeronautics. That’s not the school for those students.

    Caltech has a very well regarded Master’s degree program in aeronautical engineering. But you are right. They have only a minor in Aeronautics at the undergraduate level, with the bulk of the requisite education residing in their undergraduate mechanical engineering major.

    While JPL is now famed for it’s planetary science missions, it was named Jet Propulsion Lab for a reason. Caltech used to be the #1 school for aeronautical engineering when I was a high-school student. I’m not sure what the situation is today, but I expect it’s not a downscale destination for an aspiring aeronautical engineer.

  259. @map
    The biggest problem with engineering is that, like it or not, engineering schools are just glorified trade schools for people with higher math skills. I say this, btw, with the utmost respect for engineering because it is the highest expression of the "craft mentality" that we have going in America.

    The issue is that, at minimum, engineering is heavily commodified. What exactly is the difference between a mechanical or electrical engineer from CalTech, Stanford or MIT, and an engineering grad from any average engineering school...that is, the difference from the practical perspective of a company that has to build things to sell to customers that may not themselves be engineers?

    If you are ExxonMobil or Halliburton, would it not make sense to influence local universities to provide curricula that train the workforce you need for your company? Halliburton and Exxon would just tell Texas A&M and UT to teach this set of skills to their grads they would need to work at Exxon or Halliburton. Ditto for Raytheon, Motorola, Boeing, General Electric.

    Even if CalTech, MIT and Stanford genuinely have much smarter students than other places, is that extra brainpower really necessary for most corporate engineering work? Will companies continue paying a premium for this extra brainpower, when they can just bring in an H1B to run CAD/CAM machinery, or some similar job?

    It seems that CalTech, MIT, and Stanford engineering is geared toward a prestigious research academic career, much like the physical sciences. Except, for those who do not get into research but in practical areas, they are going to get into a grinding job where most of the practical work can be done by a lot of other people besides them. The extra training is just not necessary.

    Engineering looks like a very bifurcated career path for top kids at top schools. Choose research, and it appears to be a pretty celebrated path, although not as celebrated as the physical sciences, since cutting edge is required of that. Choose corporate work, which will not fund basic research, but, instead, incremental improvements in existing products to keep clients happy, and you will eventually get replaced by glorified machinists ot equivalent imported through the H1B program.

    It is simply not true that cutting-edge research occurs only in academia and not in corporations. Nowadays as much or more occurs in corporations, and academic work invariably involves subsidies, partnerships, and a kind if revolving door with corporations; many if the most ingenius persons hold dual positions: maintaining some endowed chair at a university but also making money as the founder of a start-up commercialising the work he does in his university’s laboratories or as a director at Google, Microsoft, Ford, etc.

    These guys are also famous for placing their students and post-docs in the relevant companies. Mind you, everyone involved is rarified, and, yes, the overwhelming majority of engineering work – both in academic research and corporations – is indeed dull, routine, workaday stuff. But if you truly are a genius, you can and will shine in a corporation. There are plenty of guys in Silly Valley and similar areas who invented this or that breakthrough in artificial intelligence, graphene, or whatever as part of their doctoral studies who are now senior directors and even vice presidents at giant corporations (like Facebook, Google, IBM, etc.) while still in their late twenties or early thirties.

    • Replies: @map
    " But if you truly are a genius, you can and will shine in a corporation."

    If you are a true genius, then you will shine at anything. This, however, is special snowflake reasoning and it really does not change my underlying point.

    Keep in mind that Facebook and Google do not innovate. They sell the concept of innovation and they employ smart people to basically lock up the intellectual property of the competition so that it cannot compete against them.

    These companies will buy off the smartest people and replace the run-of-the-mill with H1B's, even if the run-of-the-mills graduate from Stanford.
  260. @Alvin
    Bill P says:
    April 24, 2017 at 1:33 am GMT • 100 Words
    I just want my daughter to marry a healthy guy with a good work ethic and a kind heart. Preferably good looking and athletic, too. I’m not so sure she’d find that at MIT or Caltech.

    Bill - try Stanford, great combination of brains and D1 athletics - see, for example, Christian McCaffrey. I've never met a Stanford athlete (football, basketball, baseball) that I didn't like. They are first class kids.

    Even the rapists on the swimming team?

  261. @ic1000
    Mostly OT: Via commenter Robert Ford at Razib's new place --

    DNA Tests, and Sometimes Surprising Results, by Anita Foeman, professor of communications studies, West Chester University. NYT, 4/20/17.

    Prof. Foeman has had hundreds of her students predict their racial pedigree, then take ancestry/com-23andMe type ancestry tests.

    As a member in good standing of the Academy, she'd be unable to compose a sentence that contains the words "race" and "evolution." Yet unsurprisingly, her findings are best understood in an HBD-aware framework.

    Most amusing case study: Bernard

    Identifies as: Black; father is black and mother is white

    His prediction: 50% European, 50% African

    His comments before the test: "My mother said, 'I know you are me, but no cop is going to take the time to find out your mother is white.' She was very specific about raising me as a black man.

    Results: 91% European, 5% Middle Eastern, 2% Hispanic; less than 1% African and Asian

    Thoughts about his ancestry results: "What are you trying to do to me? You have caused a lot of problems in my family. I know my nose is sharp and my skin is light, but my politics are as black as night. Today, I don’t identify as mixed. I reject my white privilege in a racist America. There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black."
     
    As far as I know, he is not the president of the local chapter of the NAACP.

    I didn’t know that Mindy Kaling had another brother.

    Seriously speaking, this guy is either an inveterate liar or a damned fool. There are Slavic people at my place of business who possess more stereotypical “african” features (lips, nose, etc.), than Bernard. And then again, his acceptance of being “outed” as a racial polymorph may be a ploy to maintain multiple modes of access to the AA spigot in all of its forks (financial, social, sexual.) If he shows up at a neo-BLM rally with a non-black wife and even paler children, we’ll have an answer.

  262. @ic1000
    Mostly OT: Via commenter Robert Ford at Razib's new place --

    DNA Tests, and Sometimes Surprising Results, by Anita Foeman, professor of communications studies, West Chester University. NYT, 4/20/17.

    Prof. Foeman has had hundreds of her students predict their racial pedigree, then take ancestry/com-23andMe type ancestry tests.

    As a member in good standing of the Academy, she'd be unable to compose a sentence that contains the words "race" and "evolution." Yet unsurprisingly, her findings are best understood in an HBD-aware framework.

    Most amusing case study: Bernard

    Identifies as: Black; father is black and mother is white

    His prediction: 50% European, 50% African

    His comments before the test: "My mother said, 'I know you are me, but no cop is going to take the time to find out your mother is white.' She was very specific about raising me as a black man.

    Results: 91% European, 5% Middle Eastern, 2% Hispanic; less than 1% African and Asian

    Thoughts about his ancestry results: "What are you trying to do to me? You have caused a lot of problems in my family. I know my nose is sharp and my skin is light, but my politics are as black as night. Today, I don’t identify as mixed. I reject my white privilege in a racist America. There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black."
     
    As far as I know, he is not the president of the local chapter of the NAACP.

    Years ago a school principal named Wayne Joseph found out that he was not black. His DNA result was “57% indo European, 39% Native American, 4% east Asian, and 0%  black African.”

    Someone should do a study on how people who identify as black can mate and reproduce for generations without picking up any African DNA.

    https://chancellorfiles.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/wayne-joseph-thought-he-was-black/

    I think that if Erica looks into her background, she will find that her mother is Latina. Either her maternal grandparents were “passing”, grandma had relations with another man, or Erica’s mother is adopted.

    Odds are that her African-American father is part white. Let’s say Erica is 40% African and 10% European from her father — she would be 8% African, 27% European, and 14% Native American, and 1% Other from her mother. Even if all of her African genes came from her father, she would be 35% European, 14% Native American, and 1% Other from her mother, which is impossible for German/English/Irish/Spanish ancestry.

    • Replies: @BB753
    How do you explain Bernard's results? He certainly doesn't look 91% White. Unless his 5% Middle-Eastern and 2% "Hispanic" parts were in fact heavily Black. Even so, it would be a fluke to look so African. Anyway, his mother has a lot of explainin' to do to his father. Or his father has been passing as Black his whole life.
  263. @Autochthon

    There is no way that I or my kids will identify as anything other than black.
     
    And so ends his mother's entire line, as definitively as if she had never borne a child at all.

    The overhwelming majority (I'd guess ninety-nine per cent) of such people take this attitude, and it belies a similar point made a while ago by Mr. Derbyshire.

    Mr. Derbyshire pointed out that the nonsense claims from leftists that they are oppressed and afraid and so forth is disproved on its face because if they trult were so, the last thing in the world they would so is openly talk about the matter, defy the government via protests and marches, and so on. These people go on national television and drone on and on about how they genuinely fear for their very lives following Mr. Trump's election; they run full-page adverts and editorials im The New York Times. It's silly.

    Do you believe for one moment anyone in a genuinely repressive and dangerous place would do such things? In North Korea? Stalin's Russia? Heck, I bet it would be difficuly if not impossible to thus denounce and insult the ruling Saudi family in Arabia.

    If the Western governments, employers, and others in positions of power were truly dangerous and oppressive to blacks (and mestizos, Asians, Arabs, etc.) they would perforce not fall over themselves to move not just move to our countries, but into the whitest parts of our countries they possibly can. They certainly wouldn't carry on as they do. In an actually dangerous and oppressive state that had it in for black people, Al Sharpton and Jease Jackson would long since have been disappeared by governmental death squads. There certainly would not be a big statue of Martin King on the national mall. And so on.

    Ironically, the actual oppression and danger to both black people and these mulattos (and, Hell's bells, even white people) comes from black people! It is black people who publicly spout racist and hateful things against white people with impunity. It is white people the government proactively oppresses and discriminates against via so-called "affirmative action" and similar shemes. It is black people who would mock, taunt, and probably even assault Bernard and his ilk were they to openly claim their white ancestry as mulattos, much less if they were to claim to be only white the same way they currently claim to be only black.

    Whiny mulattos like the guy Bernard and Barry Obama would scramble to emphasize that their mothers are white and claim themselves to be white, as well, rather than black. Even if they decided the genetic dominance of dark skin over recessive white skin precluded this approach, they would at least emphasize that they are mulattos and not truly blacks.

    Note too that it damn near always the mother who is the "oppressor" race when miscegenation occurs, another complete inversion of reality: in actual cases of oppression and subjugation the ruling men take the women from those they overpower, as happened for example with the conquistadors in America. (I'll warrant the genetic profiles of mestizos indicate nearly all of their male ancestors are all Europeans and their female ancestors Indios....)

    Returning to Bernard's words: he has utter contempt for his mother's line and her people; she herself hates them, in a supreme display of miserable self-loathing, and has toiled to instill that contempt and hatred in her mulatto child.
    This phenomenon is why there can be no hippy-dippy world where all races are treated equally as a result of miscegenation, as some who advocate for it would have us believe. Invariably the mulatto, mestizo, and otherwise half-breed children reject, despise, and even proacrively seek to destroy their own white forebears. Happas seem
    to often be an exception presently, but mark my words: as Asians increasingly join the racket for cash and prizes by clamoring "I too am aggreived and oppressed and in danger!" (and they are doing so, having realises the game is very lucrative indeed...), the exception will decline, and they will also denounce their own white ancestors.

    For these reasons, nevermind the destruction of biodiversity, many of us oppose miscegenation; our rejection is completely rational and reasoned because of the demonstravly negative outcomes. Yet opponents of the position would have you believe we are all of us raving lunatics in the style of Hitler and Goebbels. I wish black people success and long life. I just don't want them destroying white people to achieve it.

    Mr. Derbyshire

    You know he is married to an East Asian and has mixed children, right? I believe his son is in the military now.

    Invariably the mulatto, mestizo, and otherwise half-breed children reject, despise, and even proacrively seek to destroy their own white forebears. Happas seem to often be an exception presently, but mark my words: as Asians increasingly join the racket for cash and prizes by clamoring “I too am aggreived and oppressed and in danger!” (and they are doing so, having realises the game is very lucrative indeed…), the exception will decline, and they will also denounce their own white ancestors.

    There is no evidence AT ALL that is happening now with “Happas.” Not only does a large majority of mixed white-Asians identify as whites in the United States, a large subset of American-born Asians (no white admixture), i.e. “pure” Asians, especially from the third generation and on, identify as “whites”!

    Asian SJWs might attract the watchful gaze of Mr. Sailer, but they are a tiny segment of the Asian population in the U.S. and are not reflective of that general population. No one but God knows the future, but for now your prediction looks extremely unlikely.

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @Anon
    By and large in the U.S., I don't think race qua race is really such a big deal for anyone except blacks. I suppose I'm half-Asian myself (actually more likely 40-something %, and for some values of "Asian"); I never heard of the term "hapa" until recently and never at all offline, and I never had to identify racially at all; nor did or does anyone else (except the very few blacks) in my small Northeastern town, which is mostly white with a small percentage from various parts of Asia.

    By contrast, in college I was fairly friendly with people from my mother's region of Asia, which probably did owe something to my appearance (as they interact mostly with each other), as well as with whites and miscellaneous Americans. Hardly any of my acquaintances were what could plausibly called SJW except on the philosophy club, where about half were, especially the (American-born) Asians (all female), at least one of whom, the President, was a devout admirer of Foucault.

    Now that I've bored you all:

    My general conclusion is that merely racial division in the U.S. splits blacks from everyone else. The split between Latinos and everyone else is more cultural than racial; they're united by hispanidad at some remove. Asians except for a limited association with people from the Old Country (as Europeans have also) don't split from white/mainstream culture at all.

  264. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Mr. Derbyshire
     
    You know he is married to an East Asian and has mixed children, right? I believe his son is in the military now.

    Invariably the mulatto, mestizo, and otherwise half-breed children reject, despise, and even proacrively seek to destroy their own white forebears. Happas seem to often be an exception presently, but mark my words: as Asians increasingly join the racket for cash and prizes by clamoring “I too am aggreived and oppressed and in danger!” (and they are doing so, having realises the game is very lucrative indeed…), the exception will decline, and they will also denounce their own white ancestors.
     
    There is no evidence AT ALL that is happening now with "Happas." Not only does a large majority of mixed white-Asians identify as whites in the United States, a large subset of American-born Asians (no white admixture), i.e. "pure" Asians, especially from the third generation and on, identify as "whites"!

    Asian SJWs might attract the watchful gaze of Mr. Sailer, but they are a tiny segment of the Asian population in the U.S. and are not reflective of that general population. No one but God knows the future, but for now your prediction looks extremely unlikely.

    By and large in the U.S., I don’t think race qua race is really such a big deal for anyone except blacks. I suppose I’m half-Asian myself (actually more likely 40-something %, and for some values of “Asian”); I never heard of the term “hapa” until recently and never at all offline, and I never had to identify racially at all; nor did or does anyone else (except the very few blacks) in my small Northeastern town, which is mostly white with a small percentage from various parts of Asia.

    By contrast, in college I was fairly friendly with people from my mother’s region of Asia, which probably did owe something to my appearance (as they interact mostly with each other), as well as with whites and miscellaneous Americans. Hardly any of my acquaintances were what could plausibly called SJW except on the philosophy club, where about half were, especially the (American-born) Asians (all female), at least one of whom, the President, was a devout admirer of Foucault.

    Now that I’ve bored you all:

    My general conclusion is that merely racial division in the U.S. splits blacks from everyone else. The split between Latinos and everyone else is more cultural than racial; they’re united by hispanidad at some remove. Asians except for a limited association with people from the Old Country (as Europeans have also) don’t split from white/mainstream culture at all.

  265. @Triumph104
    Years ago a school principal named Wayne Joseph found out that he was not black. His DNA result was "57% indo European, 39% Native American, 4% east Asian, and 0%  black African."

    Someone should do a study on how people who identify as black can mate and reproduce for generations without picking up any African DNA.

    https://chancellorfiles.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/wayne-joseph-thought-he-was-black/

    I think that if Erica looks into her background, she will find that her mother is Latina. Either her maternal grandparents were "passing", grandma had relations with another man, or Erica's mother is adopted.

    Odds are that her African-American father is part white. Let's say Erica is 40% African and 10% European from her father -- she would be 8% African, 27% European, and 14% Native American, and 1% Other from her mother. Even if all of her African genes came from her father, she would be 35% European, 14% Native American, and 1% Other from her mother, which is impossible for German/English/Irish/Spanish ancestry.

    How do you explain Bernard’s results? He certainly doesn’t look 91% White. Unless his 5% Middle-Eastern and 2% “Hispanic” parts were in fact heavily Black. Even so, it would be a fluke to look so African. Anyway, his mother has a lot of explainin’ to do to his father. Or his father has been passing as Black his whole life.

  266. @Formerly CARealist
    I don't think Caltech has majors in aeronautics. That's not the school for those students.
  267. @Autochthon
    It is simply not true that cutting-edge research occurs only in academia and not in corporations. Nowadays as much or more occurs in corporations, and academic work invariably involves subsidies, partnerships, and a kind if revolving door with corporations; many if the most ingenius persons hold dual positions: maintaining some endowed chair at a university but also making money as the founder of a start-up commercialising the work he does in his university's laboratories or as a director at Google, Microsoft, Ford, etc.

    These guys are also famous for placing their students and post-docs in the relevant companies. Mind you, everyone involved is rarified, and, yes, the overwhelming majority of engineering work – both in academic research and corporations – is indeed dull, routine, workaday stuff. But if you truly are a genius, you can and will shine in a corporation. There are plenty of guys in Silly Valley and similar areas who invented this or that breakthrough in artificial intelligence, graphene, or whatever as part of their doctoral studies who are now senior directors and even vice presidents at giant corporations (like Facebook, Google, IBM, etc.) while still in their late twenties or early thirties.

    ” But if you truly are a genius, you can and will shine in a corporation.”

    If you are a true genius, then you will shine at anything. This, however, is special snowflake reasoning and it really does not change my underlying point.

    Keep in mind that Facebook and Google do not innovate. They sell the concept of innovation and they employ smart people to basically lock up the intellectual property of the competition so that it cannot compete against them.

    These companies will buy off the smartest people and replace the run-of-the-mill with H1B’s, even if the run-of-the-mills graduate from Stanford.

    • Replies: @Autochthon

    Keep in mind that Facebook and Google do not innovate.
     
    These guys didn't get the memo.

    They sell the concept of innovation and they employ smart people to basically lock up the intellectual property of the competition so that it cannot compete against them.
     
    Both of these statements are true. I must elaborate, though: These corporations sell not only the concept of innovation: They sell innovations. They do so by patenting their inventions and directly practicing those patents or licensing them to others for money. They "lock up the intellectual property of the competition" by accumulating a portfolio of defensive patents they can assert in counterclaims against competitors who themselves assert those competitors' patents against them, and by asserting their own patents against the competitors when appropriate, by participating in bodies which establish standards, and so forth. I should clarify the goal is not to "lock up" anything, but rather to maximise profits from one's research and development.

    Thanks for the kind words about my being a smart person, by the way.
  268. @map
    " But if you truly are a genius, you can and will shine in a corporation."

    If you are a true genius, then you will shine at anything. This, however, is special snowflake reasoning and it really does not change my underlying point.

    Keep in mind that Facebook and Google do not innovate. They sell the concept of innovation and they employ smart people to basically lock up the intellectual property of the competition so that it cannot compete against them.

    These companies will buy off the smartest people and replace the run-of-the-mill with H1B's, even if the run-of-the-mills graduate from Stanford.

    Keep in mind that Facebook and Google do not innovate.

    These guys didn’t get the memo.

    They sell the concept of innovation and they employ smart people to basically lock up the intellectual property of the competition so that it cannot compete against them.

    Both of these statements are true. I must elaborate, though: These corporations sell not only the concept of innovation: They sell innovations. They do so by patenting their inventions and directly practicing those patents or licensing them to others for money. They “lock up the intellectual property of the competition” by accumulating a portfolio of defensive patents they can assert in counterclaims against competitors who themselves assert those competitors’ patents against them, and by asserting their own patents against the competitors when appropriate, by participating in bodies which establish standards, and so forth. I should clarify the goal is not to “lock up” anything, but rather to maximise profits from one’s research and development.

    Thanks for the kind words about my being a smart person, by the way.

    • Replies: @map
    One thing that I have learned over time is that the computing field is the most hype-driven industry on the planet. It is wishful thinking and credit money operating in an unholy alliance to bilk the public.

    Take this AI nonsense. Why do they keep calling something an "artificial intelligence" when what they really mean is a complex decision tree? Do they really believe that intelligence is simply a matter of how many lines of code you can write with a series of conditional statements? Note to the wise: if you are telling a machine what to do, then you are not doing artificial intelligence.

    You aren't even doing "cat intelligence." Personally, I would like to see them create an artificial cat.
  269. This comment is meant for FormerCARealist, Comment 224.

    I don’t know anything about Embry-Riddle, but if you are inquiring for someone interested in an airline pilot’s career, do not take advice about pilot training via the armed forces.
    I can’t say about the Air Force, but I come from a family full of naval aviators for generations back. They became naval aviators because they were intensely motivated to be naval aviators. You will not have any chance without that strong determination, and if you have it, why would you throw it away to take up another career?
    The Navy gets about 13,000 applications a year from people who want to be aviators. Only about 10 percent of those are selected, and only about 75 percent make it through the program and a number of those end up flying — gasp! — helos.
    The Navy designates 40 percent of aviator slots for Annapolis graduates, 40 percent for ROTC graduates and 20 percent for OCS graduates. To even be considered, an outstanding academic record is required, as is participation in varsity sports and what the Navy calls demonstrated leadership ability. In other words, you have to be a self-confident, smart jock.
    They say the difference between God and a naval aviator is that God doesn’t think he’s a naval aviator. If you don’t have that kind of personality — a the skill and talent to back it up — you won’t make it.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    To be fair, it's hardly a walk in the park.

    There's a reason we called the other guys the Chair Force....
  270. @Whoever
    This comment is meant for FormerCARealist, Comment 224.

    I don't know anything about Embry-Riddle, but if you are inquiring for someone interested in an airline pilot's career, do not take advice about pilot training via the armed forces.
    I can't say about the Air Force, but I come from a family full of naval aviators for generations back. They became naval aviators because they were intensely motivated to be naval aviators. You will not have any chance without that strong determination, and if you have it, why would you throw it away to take up another career?
    The Navy gets about 13,000 applications a year from people who want to be aviators. Only about 10 percent of those are selected, and only about 75 percent make it through the program and a number of those end up flying -- gasp! -- helos.
    The Navy designates 40 percent of aviator slots for Annapolis graduates, 40 percent for ROTC graduates and 20 percent for OCS graduates. To even be considered, an outstanding academic record is required, as is participation in varsity sports and what the Navy calls demonstrated leadership ability. In other words, you have to be a self-confident, smart jock.
    They say the difference between God and a naval aviator is that God doesn't think he's a naval aviator. If you don't have that kind of personality -- a the skill and talent to back it up -- you won't make it.

    To be fair, it’s hardly a walk in the park.

    There’s a reason we called the other guys the Chair Force….

    • Replies: @Whoever
  271. map says:
    @Autochthon

    Keep in mind that Facebook and Google do not innovate.
     
    These guys didn't get the memo.

    They sell the concept of innovation and they employ smart people to basically lock up the intellectual property of the competition so that it cannot compete against them.
     
    Both of these statements are true. I must elaborate, though: These corporations sell not only the concept of innovation: They sell innovations. They do so by patenting their inventions and directly practicing those patents or licensing them to others for money. They "lock up the intellectual property of the competition" by accumulating a portfolio of defensive patents they can assert in counterclaims against competitors who themselves assert those competitors' patents against them, and by asserting their own patents against the competitors when appropriate, by participating in bodies which establish standards, and so forth. I should clarify the goal is not to "lock up" anything, but rather to maximise profits from one's research and development.

    Thanks for the kind words about my being a smart person, by the way.

    One thing that I have learned over time is that the computing field is the most hype-driven industry on the planet. It is wishful thinking and credit money operating in an unholy alliance to bilk the public.

    Take this AI nonsense. Why do they keep calling something an “artificial intelligence” when what they really mean is a complex decision tree? Do they really believe that intelligence is simply a matter of how many lines of code you can write with a series of conditional statements? Note to the wise: if you are telling a machine what to do, then you are not doing artificial intelligence.

    You aren’t even doing “cat intelligence.” Personally, I would like to see them create an artificial cat.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Even just two years ago I would have effectively agreed with you with no compunction to add a qualification.

    The current state of play in artificial intelligence is no longer, however, a complex decision tree, as you put it. With the advent of parallel computing and neural networks, a quantum leap occurred. The systems now teach themselves, and can actually approximate insights of the sorts humans are capable of as a result.

    When I was a lad us wanna-be rockstars would often discuss the merits and demerits of being self-taught or formally schooled ("Mike Portnoy went to Berklee!" "Yeah, and he had the sense to drop out!" "Steve Vai was taught by Joe Satriani!" "Yeah, well Eddie Van Halen cannot even read music, so it cannot be that important.")

    We are all self-taught because we must all comprehend the concepts, establish the muscle memory, and put in the hours.

    We are none of us self-taught because the books we read, the rudiments and scales we practice, and so are the teachings of others.

    Likewise systems for artificial intelligence are increasingly worthy of the name, and humans ourselves, including our minds, are increasingly shown to be complex decision trees because, with enough data – your genome, your childhood, your diet, etc.; every detail about you – it turns out very accurate predicitons can be made about your personality, your health, etc.

    But you will need a computer with its vast memory to keep track if all those details and correlate them, inteligently or with the mother of all decision trees depends upon your semantic preferences.
  272. @Autochthon
    To be fair, it's hardly a walk in the park.

    There's a reason we called the other guys the Chair Force....
  273. @map
    One thing that I have learned over time is that the computing field is the most hype-driven industry on the planet. It is wishful thinking and credit money operating in an unholy alliance to bilk the public.

    Take this AI nonsense. Why do they keep calling something an "artificial intelligence" when what they really mean is a complex decision tree? Do they really believe that intelligence is simply a matter of how many lines of code you can write with a series of conditional statements? Note to the wise: if you are telling a machine what to do, then you are not doing artificial intelligence.

    You aren't even doing "cat intelligence." Personally, I would like to see them create an artificial cat.

    Even just two years ago I would have effectively agreed with you with no compunction to add a qualification.

    The current state of play in artificial intelligence is no longer, however, a complex decision tree, as you put it. With the advent of parallel computing and neural networks, a quantum leap occurred. The systems now teach themselves, and can actually approximate insights of the sorts humans are capable of as a result.

    When I was a lad us wanna-be rockstars would often discuss the merits and demerits of being self-taught or formally schooled (“Mike Portnoy went to Berklee!” “Yeah, and he had the sense to drop out!” “Steve Vai was taught by Joe Satriani!” “Yeah, well Eddie Van Halen cannot even read music, so it cannot be that important.”)

    We are all self-taught because we must all comprehend the concepts, establish the muscle memory, and put in the hours.

    We are none of us self-taught because the books we read, the rudiments and scales we practice, and so are the teachings of others.

    Likewise systems for artificial intelligence are increasingly worthy of the name, and humans ourselves, including our minds, are increasingly shown to be complex decision trees because, with enough data – your genome, your childhood, your diet, etc.; every detail about you – it turns out very accurate predicitons can be made about your personality, your health, etc.

    But you will need a computer with its vast memory to keep track if all those details and correlate them, inteligently or with the mother of all decision trees depends upon your semantic preferences.