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From the New York Times, an article explaining how an upcoming Rossini opera, “L’Italiana in Algeri,” being put on by superstar mezzo-soprano Cecilia Bartoli at the Salzburg Festival for Very Rich Music Lovers is being Current Year-Proofed:

Taking On 19th-Century Opera Stereotypes for the #MeToo Era

By Nina Siegal
July 17, 2018

What happens when a powerful man makes moves on a strong, independent woman who has no intention of accepting his advances?

Oh, that’s bad!

And how are things further complicated if he is Middle Eastern and she is Western and their cultures fundamentally clash?

Oh, well, that’s kind of … different. One doesn’t want to be insensitive, does one? Maybe she should just lie back and think of the EU?

These are some of the basic narrative elements of Gioachino Rossini’s 1813 comedic opera “L’Italiana in Algeri” (“The Italian Girl in Algiers”), which tells the story of Mustafa, a Turkish bey, or governor, who wants to jettison his wife, Elvira, and who complains that Muslim women are too ingratiating and submissive. He seeks the exciting temperament and sexual prowess of an Italian woman, he says, and tasks his assistant, Haly, with finding him one, on pain of death, within six days.

As operatic good fortune might have it, Haly stumbles upon Isabella, a victim of a recent shipwreck. She is searching for her fiancé, Lindoro, who was captured by pirates and who now, by coincidence, is a servant in Mustafa’s court.

The kidnapping into sex slavery of vast numbers of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

In theory, it would seem like there would be room for an angry feminist take on how white slavery was not a joke to the hundreds of thousands of European women kidnapped into harems. Why are there more comic than tragic operas on this subject?

But the rest of the article makes clear that the headline’s promise is not being fulfilled, due to multiculturalism.

For a modern audience, this story treads on territory that is quite sensitive, sociologically speaking. There are sexual politics, colonial implications and a clash of Eastern and Western values. Not to mention harems and eunuchs and Ottoman rulers, which don’t seem so relevant today. …

But how to handle such an opera in a #MeToo context and in an age of tense East-West affairs? Mr. Leiser and Mr. Caurier, who have collaborated since 1983, were aware of the potential pitfalls of trying to take on such a work at this political moment, Mr. Leiser said.

“The last thing I wanted was Western elite people going to the Salzburg opera and having a lot of fun seeing how ‘stupid’ the Arabs are,” Mr. Leiser said in an interview. “You must be very politically aware that we are not laughing about, but we are laughing with.”

He said they attempted to navigate the work by trying to be perfectly clear about the political messages they were sending.

“What I believe is that, according to the political context you’re in, you must be very aware of the references you’re using and how you present human suffering or human madness, whether it’s a tragedy or a comedic opera,” he said. “You must be very careful about whose side you’re on when you deal with characters in an opera.”…

“The piece at its core, in a certain way, is a very Western take on Islamic culture, and normally Mustafa is portrayed as just stupid and ugly and the Italians are clever and very heroic,” Mr. Leiser said. “That was something I was not interested in at all. We had to find another story line to keep the genius of Rossini and the music and the libretto, and keep it as a real comedy, because it’s important to laugh. But comedy is serious business, and you must know what you are laughing about.”

Rather than altering the libretto, which Mr. Leiser said would be “cheating,” he engaged in many long conversations with Ms. Bartoli and Mr. Caurier to shift the interpretation. They decided to change Mustafa’s status from an Ottoman bey to a kind of local gangster who smuggles electronics at the port of modern-day Algiers, because they “felt that his behavior shouldn’t be generalized as Muslim behavior.” …

Mr. Leiser said that they had to be very conscientious to make sure the jokes worked and that they didn’t send the wrong kinds of message.

So, it sounds like the changes don’t have anything to do with #MeToo and everything to do with #PleaseDoNotKillUsISISPlease. Not that there aren’t prudent reasons for trying hard not to offend angry Muslim extremists … But it is another data point about where white women fall on the Intersectional Pokemon Points totem pole.

 
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  1. “The last thing I wanted was Western elite people going to the Salzburg opera and having a lot of fun seeing how ‘stupid’ the Arabs are,” Mr. Leiser said in an interview.

    The Turks are not Arabs.

    • Replies: @WowJustWow
    The current politically correct position is that all Muslims look alike. Otherwise, how could we criticize Islamophobia as being a form of racism?
    , @J.Ross
    The Algierians are not Turks.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    The Turks are not Arabs.
     
    No, but the Somalis are.

    https://natgeoeducationblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/screen-shot-2015-03-30-at-7-27-25-am.png?w=470

  2. Anonymous[114] • Disclaimer says:

    You are doing amazing work, Steve.

    • Agree: Bubba
    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    I've never sung in L’Italiana in Algeri but I have sung in the Abduction. I sang Osmin. So I have thought a little and read a little about these operas (or singspiels). These are just the two of most famous in a series of shows once popular. In America the most common plot for our nineteenth century operas was Cowboys and Indians. In Europe they liked stories about sex slaves.

    It was clearly an appeal to subliminal BDSM interests. Read the text to Constanza's great aria - "Marten Aller Arten". Catch a woman, tie her up and torture her until she likes it. That's pretty obviously a BDSM fantasy.

    "The Magic Flute" also has to be toned down in modern translations. I've sung Sarastro too. He delights in whipping the one black character in the plot. He also likes to humiliate and subjugate women. If someone had the guts they would cast Harvey Weinstein as Sarastro in a modernized production.
  3. Maybe one should just lie back and think of the EU?

    Indeed. Or in the case of white men, bend over.

    He seeks the exciting temperament and sexual prowess of an Italian woman, he says, and tasks his assistant, Haly, with finding him one, on pain of death, within six days.

    Why can’t we get good service like that anymore?

    … where white women fall on the Intersectional Pokemon Points totem pole.

    Which is why they all should stand with white men now to help us fend off the attacks. Or at least they could stand behind us so they don’t get hit with the flying bullshit.

    • LOL: Kylie
  4. I was thinking recently about Mozart’s Seraglio opera. Nearly the only connection I can think of with Muslims and classical music are the flights of fancies of men like Mozart.

    Other than that, I understand that there is some Arab/Jewish children’s orchestra, but that seems a bit like a Potemkin Village.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Edward "Orientalism" Said was a near professional quality concert pianist and the opera critic for "The Nation" magazine.
    , @PiltdownMan
    Maybe a bit more than a Potemkin village. Western classical music seems to be a thing among the Palestinians, especially after Israel was founded. I don't know about the rest of the Islamic world.

    From Wikipedia

    During the occupation, Palestinian classical music continued to rise, with new names in the realm of classical music along with the founding of many symphony orchestras (such as the Palestinian Youth Orchestra PYO, and West-Eastern Divan, founded by Daniel Barenboim and Edward Said) as well as string quartets and quintets, which gave the Palestinian Territories the highest number of orchestras among Arab countries.

    Names of Palestinian composers: Salvador Arnita (1914-1985), Habib Hasan Touma (born in Nazareth, 1934, died in Berlin 1998), Nasri Fernando Dueri (born 1932), François Nicodeme (born in Jerusalem 1935) and his brother William Nicodeme (born Amin Nasser in Ramleh 1935), Patrick Lama, Abdel-Hamid Hamam, Mounir Anastas, Samir Odeh-Tamimi (1970) and Wisam Gibran (born in Nazareth 1970) dominated the Palestinian classical music scene.
     
    , @Dave Pinsen
    One of the points Kim Stanley Robinson gets across in his novel The Years of Rice and Salt, an alternative history in which Black Death wiped out 99% of Europe's population, is how WEIRD classical music and other European inventions are. Here, a Muslim, drawing on early Christian music, fumbles toward discovering classical music.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/848060216730144768
    , @cliff arroyo
    I do know that at least around 15 years ago there was some kind of Omani symphony orchestra (shown on late night tv). They wore Omani clothes and IIRC they were all men.
    The playing was pretty dreadful but I was heartened that they were trying.
    On the other hand, I've tried to find examples of muslim classical performers in modern Europe and there is not very much which does not speak promisingly of the future of classical music in its homeland (unless North and South Americans and East Asians step up and fill the gap).
  5. Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's not #PleaseDoNotKillUsISISPlease or multiculti enforcers, but an unprincipled exception in the #MeToo era: the non-white.

    Cultural elites can police themselves perfectly well. They even know to pretend that the issue is that Arabs are portrayed as stupid, not that Muslims practicing white slavery seems so contemporary.

    The persistence of a stereotype over the ages just proves how unenlightened and bad it is.

    , @Anonymous

    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.
     
    The real worry is that portraying non-Whites as a threat will stir group feeling among Whites. This could lead to solidarity and stronger group identity (external threats or perceptions of them do that) and cause Whites to act more collectively. For example, they could choose to close their borders against non-Whites.
    , @njguy73

    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.

     

    At least you can negotiate with ISIS.
  6. We can’t forget about the piracy, looting and kidnapping where I came from. We don’t need the operas because the Amalfi coast has watch towers called “Saracenos” on every headland that were there to protect against the depredations of Muslims who took over a million Europeans as slaves.
    BTW Bartoli is very talented but doesn’t have a lot of power, so her voice is better suited for recitals and recordings than trying to fill a large opera hall unamplified. She was a bit underwhelming in performances at the Dorothy Chandler.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    I agree that Bartoli is very talented but frankly I thought the (now former) treble, Aksel Rykkvin, sang Mozart's "Laudate Dominum" better than she did. He was 13 at the time of his performance and she was 34 at the time of hers.
    , @astrolabe

    the Amalfi coast has watch towers called “Saracenos” on every headland that were there to protect against the depredations of Muslims who took over a million Europeans as slaves
     
    Bantayan Island in The Philippines is named for watch towers that were built to give early notice of Moro (aka Muslim) pirate slaver raids.
    , @Cloudbuster
    Also, she needs to trim that beard a bit:

    http://slippedisc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/cecilia-bartoli-beard.jpg
  7. The kidnapping into sex slavery of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

    For those interested in this topic I suggest the following book by Professor Robert Davis of Ohio State, “Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    The 1 million figure is separate from the nearly 2 million Russians/Ukrainians who were enslaved around Crimea. That slave trade is not discussed in this book.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In order to have a more complete accounting, we would also want to take into account the 500-1000 AD period and the Jewish slave traders ("Radhanites"), who operated then.

    They journey from West to East, from East to West, partly on land, partly by sea. They transport from the West eunuchs, female slaves, boys, brocade, castor, marten and other furs, and swords.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhanite
    , @Anonymous
    Were these Turks, Arabs, other Muslims? Do you happen to know whether people of Pakistan ever engaged in slave holding or trading?
    , @Reg Cæsar

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.
     
    Icelanders were hardly above a little abduction themselves. The Norsemen picked up quite a few Irish women on the way to their new home, and Iceland's Celtic blood quantum is around 25%.

    I would see KLM and Icelandair flight crews arrive at the same time, and the Dutch looked a lot more stereotypically Nordic. Of course, that's also selective hiring, from a population about sixty times the size.
    , @JMcG
    I’ve recommended it before, but “The Stolen Village” is the story of an entire Irish town, the inhabitants of which were seized and enslaved in the fifteenth century.
    I think only a handful ever made it back to Ireland.
    I seem to remember that the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously.
    , @Romanian
    And, of course, all of the Balkan slaves, either taken in war or as blood tribute.

    Another big set of slavers were the Tatars, who carried off large populations in their various raids for personal use or resale. Whole villages would disappear and tradition has it that they killed or carried off half of the Moldovan population beyond the river Siret on two occasions, there not being many geographic barriers to their passing.
    , @utu
    Russia can take a credit fro stopping slavery trade in and out of Crimea that was a major slave center.

    Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea

    https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/

    SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV

    http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources

    Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ
     
  8. Anonymous[237] • Disclaimer says:
    @MBlanc46
    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.

    It’s not #PleaseDoNotKillUsISISPlease or multiculti enforcers, but an unprincipled exception in the #MeToo era: the non-white.

    Cultural elites can police themselves perfectly well. They even know to pretend that the issue is that Arabs are portrayed as stupid, not that Muslims practicing white slavery seems so contemporary.

    The persistence of a stereotype over the ages just proves how unenlightened and bad it is.

  9. Some women manifest “exciting temperaments” when you least expect it.

    The trashy part of me is smitten with this girl:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/waitress-discusses-taking-down-man-who-groped-her-‘we-deal-with-a-lot’/ar-BBKWYB0?OCID=ansmsnnews11

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I like my women just a little on the trashy side!
    , @AndrewR

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.
     
    So edgy.

    This video and the reactions to it have been revealing. At most, the guy should have been thrown out of and banned from the restaurant. Arresting him is pretty ridiculous. If having her sluttily-dressed ass grabbed was the worst thing that happened to her that week then she had a pretty good week.

    And I don't think her response was so horrific but it wasn't praiseworthy either. It was absolutely an overreaction. He was no threat to her. She was not defending herself.

    I don't want to see either of them charged, but if he's gonna be charged then she should be too. What she did was unquestionably assault and battery, far more violent than what he did. The You-Go-Girl!-ism we are seeing about this is contemptible, especially juxtaposed with the progscum outrage at that dude in Florida who shot the dindu who had shoved him to the ground for telling the dindu's girlfriend not to park in the handicap parking without a permit.

    , @Pericles

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.

     

    Though the typical muslim trash might have killed her for doing that. There are better solutions to the muslim issue.
  10. @songbird
    I was thinking recently about Mozart's Seraglio opera. Nearly the only connection I can think of with Muslims and classical music are the flights of fancies of men like Mozart.

    Other than that, I understand that there is some Arab/Jewish children's orchestra, but that seems a bit like a Potemkin Village.

    Edward “Orientalism” Said was a near professional quality concert pianist and the opera critic for “The Nation” magazine.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Edward “Orientalism” Said was a near professional quality concert pianist and the opera critic for “The Nation” magazine.
     
    I can't imagine a more "right-wing" art form than opera, even more than farce. It's just incredible that The Nation would cover it at all, but that says something about the means of their subscribers.

    They do have a good crossword, though. When a library discards a pile of old issues, I grab them and rip out the last page.

    , @Lot
    Said was a product of the period when France, Britain, and Russia promoted, protected, and competed for influence among the Christian, Jewish, and minor religion groups like Alawites at the expense of the decayed Ottoman state.

    Ike allowing Egypt to seize the Suez Canal from its Western Christian shareholders was a message to Lebanese Christians that the West wouldn't protect them from Jihad and Islamification. With the loss of Lebanon, Israel and South Cyprus are the only remaining Crusader States.

    http://www.renegadebroadcasting.com/media/trump-crusader-knight-for-jews.jpg
    , @DFH
    Said's family weren't Muslims but Orthodox
  11. “They decided to change Mustafa’s status from an Ottoman bey to a kind of local gangster who smuggles electronics at the port of modern-day Algiers, because they “felt that his behavior shouldn’t be generalized as Muslim behavior.” …”

    Ummmm… A gangster electronics smuggler seems pretty darn Muslim to me.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    This line stood out to me too. "I know how we can be sensitive Muslims. Rather than portraying them as rulers of a great empire, let's portray them as petty criminals!"
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    Exactly. If anything, the change to the opera makes sense to me and makes it more relevant. On a day-to-day basis Algerian criminals are far more likely to assault European women than are Turkish nobles.
    , @J.Ross
    What they did was to remove the reference to the normality of rape slavery in Islam. He can be a bad guy, he can even be a stereotype, so long as he's not representing that particular awful stereotype which is starting to affect European elections. This is a common trick, the semi-critical audience member is satiated by any negativity and might not realize they just whitewashed the main accusation in exchange for some meaningless cliche.
  12. Seriously, there was a good article here on Unz recently about white slavery, in case anybody missed it. It’s an eye-opener:

    Whites in Servitude in Early America and Industrial Britain

    • Replies: @Romanian
    Well, by that token, you had the medieval villein system in Britain. Up to modern times, serfdom and other forms of it were widely practiced in Eastern Europe. It was abolished early in the 19th century in my country, late 19th century in Russia, around the time gypsy slavery also ended. It is interesting to think that the Brits were freeing black slaves while there were still white ones in other parts of Europe. Really gives you a sort of ample view of the general state of the world, despite people hogging the various victim pokemon points.
  13. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @MBlanc46
    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.

    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.

    The real worry is that portraying non-Whites as a threat will stir group feeling among Whites. This could lead to solidarity and stronger group identity (external threats or perceptions of them do that) and cause Whites to act more collectively. For example, they could choose to close their borders against non-Whites.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Also important, negative perceptions of non-Whites could cause White women to be more circumspect about fraternizing with them.
    , @Forbes
    The avoidance of stirring group feeling among Whites seems the prevalent motive. Most (recent) accusations of racism I've noted seem preemptive against white group solidarity, rather than actual acts of overt bias or vilification on account of another's race.
  14. Saw a performance of Cosi Fan Tutti a few months ago with the women in leggings and smartphones. It was a bit embarrassing to see “modern” women being tricked into cheating on their fiancés.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Because trickery is not necessary...
  15. I love how these “woke” so-called smart people are too stupid to know that Arabs were not synonymous with Ottoman officials.

  16. Both of Edward Said’s parents were Orthodox Levantine christians. His dad acquired American citizenship, and young Edward had an American passport while growing up Palestinian.

  17. @songbird
    I was thinking recently about Mozart's Seraglio opera. Nearly the only connection I can think of with Muslims and classical music are the flights of fancies of men like Mozart.

    Other than that, I understand that there is some Arab/Jewish children's orchestra, but that seems a bit like a Potemkin Village.

    Maybe a bit more than a Potemkin village. Western classical music seems to be a thing among the Palestinians, especially after Israel was founded. I don’t know about the rest of the Islamic world.

    From Wikipedia

    During the occupation, Palestinian classical music continued to rise, with new names in the realm of classical music along with the founding of many symphony orchestras (such as the Palestinian Youth Orchestra PYO, and West-Eastern Divan, founded by Daniel Barenboim and Edward Said) as well as string quartets and quintets, which gave the Palestinian Territories the highest number of orchestras among Arab countries.

    Names of Palestinian composers: Salvador Arnita (1914-1985), Habib Hasan Touma (born in Nazareth, 1934, died in Berlin 1998), Nasri Fernando Dueri (born 1932), François Nicodeme (born in Jerusalem 1935) and his brother William Nicodeme (born Amin Nasser in Ramleh 1935), Patrick Lama, Abdel-Hamid Hamam, Mounir Anastas, Samir Odeh-Tamimi (1970) and Wisam Gibran (born in Nazareth 1970) dominated the Palestinian classical music scene.

  18. @Flip

    “The last thing I wanted was Western elite people going to the Salzburg opera and having a lot of fun seeing how ‘stupid’ the Arabs are,” Mr. Leiser said in an interview.
     
    The Turks are not Arabs.

    The current politically correct position is that all Muslims look alike. Otherwise, how could we criticize Islamophobia as being a form of racism?

  19. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    The kidnapping into sex slavery of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

     

    For those interested in this topic I suggest the following book by Professor Robert Davis of Ohio State, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    The 1 million figure is separate from the nearly 2 million Russians/Ukrainians who were enslaved around Crimea. That slave trade is not discussed in this book.

    In order to have a more complete accounting, we would also want to take into account the 500-1000 AD period and the Jewish slave traders (“Radhanites”), who operated then.

    They journey from West to East, from East to West, partly on land, partly by sea. They transport from the West eunuchs, female slaves, boys, brocade, castor, marten and other furs, and swords.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhanite

  20. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    The kidnapping into sex slavery of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

     

    For those interested in this topic I suggest the following book by Professor Robert Davis of Ohio State, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    The 1 million figure is separate from the nearly 2 million Russians/Ukrainians who were enslaved around Crimea. That slave trade is not discussed in this book.

    Were these Turks, Arabs, other Muslims? Do you happen to know whether people of Pakistan ever engaged in slave holding or trading?

    • Replies: @Stork
    Indians have some stories about that.
  21. A famous white slave. From a “bad girl” to a nun to kidnapped and raped slave to one of the last Muslim queens in Iberia to reconvert back to Holy Mother Church.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_de_Sol%C3%ADs

  22. The ballet Le Corsaire also had a theme of European women being sold in a Muslim slave market.

  23. @Alfa158
    We can’t forget about the piracy, looting and kidnapping where I came from. We don’t need the operas because the Amalfi coast has watch towers called “Saracenos” on every headland that were there to protect against the depredations of Muslims who took over a million Europeans as slaves.
    BTW Bartoli is very talented but doesn’t have a lot of power, so her voice is better suited for recitals and recordings than trying to fill a large opera hall unamplified. She was a bit underwhelming in performances at the Dorothy Chandler.

    I agree that Bartoli is very talented but frankly I thought the (now former) treble, Aksel Rykkvin, sang Mozart’s “Laudate Dominum” better than she did. He was 13 at the time of his performance and she was 34 at the time of hers.

  24. Gioachino Rossini’s 1813 comedic opera…

    Written not long after his fourth birthday. Really.

    Alright, for the 99.93% of us not born on Leap Day, that would be twenty-one. That’s still mighty impressive for an opera.

  25. @Flip

    “The last thing I wanted was Western elite people going to the Salzburg opera and having a lot of fun seeing how ‘stupid’ the Arabs are,” Mr. Leiser said in an interview.
     
    The Turks are not Arabs.

    The Algierians are not Turks.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Right, but Algiers was part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire at the time during which the opera is set. The bey would have been a Turkish – not, say, Berber – ruler; "bey" is a Turkish term. Thus, a similar piece set in India of the time might well have the protagonist be a governing Briton because, well, the British were fairly well in charge of all the Hindoos at that place and time....

    The quip that conflating Turks with Arabs stands, mind; it shows the stupidity of the asshat working so hard to show how worldly and hip he is via knowledge of politically correct orthodoxy rather than actual history.
  26. I remember seeing Turandot as a kid and picking up with a startle on the Chinese girl’s stated motive for rejecting male suitors as a defense against rape.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What was the stated motive?
  27. @Flip

    “The last thing I wanted was Western elite people going to the Salzburg opera and having a lot of fun seeing how ‘stupid’ the Arabs are,” Mr. Leiser said in an interview.
     
    The Turks are not Arabs.

    The Turks are not Arabs.

    No, but the Somalis are.

  28. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.
     
    The real worry is that portraying non-Whites as a threat will stir group feeling among Whites. This could lead to solidarity and stronger group identity (external threats or perceptions of them do that) and cause Whites to act more collectively. For example, they could choose to close their borders against non-Whites.

    Also important, negative perceptions of non-Whites could cause White women to be more circumspect about fraternizing with them.

  29. @istevefan

    The kidnapping into sex slavery of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

     

    For those interested in this topic I suggest the following book by Professor Robert Davis of Ohio State, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    The 1 million figure is separate from the nearly 2 million Russians/Ukrainians who were enslaved around Crimea. That slave trade is not discussed in this book.

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    Icelanders were hardly above a little abduction themselves. The Norsemen picked up quite a few Irish women on the way to their new home, and Iceland’s Celtic blood quantum is around 25%.

    I would see KLM and Icelandair flight crews arrive at the same time, and the Dutch looked a lot more stereotypically Nordic. Of course, that’s also selective hiring, from a population about sixty times the size.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    How do you know it was abduction?
  30. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    I remember seeing Turandot as a kid and picking up with a startle on the Chinese girl's stated motive for rejecting male suitors as a defense against rape.

    What was the stated motive?

  31. Slightly OT-

    Straight White Men a play by Young Jean Lee about three brothers who play a board game called Privilege just opened on Broadway.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/23/theater/straight-white-men-review-armie-hammer-josh-charles.html

  32. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.
     
    Icelanders were hardly above a little abduction themselves. The Norsemen picked up quite a few Irish women on the way to their new home, and Iceland's Celtic blood quantum is around 25%.

    I would see KLM and Icelandair flight crews arrive at the same time, and the Dutch looked a lot more stereotypically Nordic. Of course, that's also selective hiring, from a population about sixty times the size.

    How do you know it was abduction?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    How do you know it was abduction?
     
    I don't. And Irish historians greatly outnumber Icelandic ones, so maybe it's just their spin.
    , @Clifford Brown

    How do you know it was abduction?
     
    To the extent there is any historical record, the Landnámabók, the “Book of Settlements”, describes the settlement of Iceland with a significant Irish slave population. The Viking enslavement of the Irish was pretty systematic and well recorded. Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire. One such British slave, St. Patrick, brought Christianity to Ireland.

    There was an early Irish slave rebellion in Iceland recorded in the Landnámabók and the freed slaves settled on the island of Vestmannaeyjar off the coast of Iceland. The name comes from the Viking name for the Irish which was "Vestmenn" or "Men of the West". In a historic irony or perhaps simply a fact of history, Vestmannaeyjar was one of the islands off of Iceland enslaved by the Islamic Barbary Pirates in the 1600s.

  33. Why are there more comic than tragic operas on this subject?

    The Europeans won. A century from now, if they are even permitted to be performed, operas on the subject matter might very well have a tragic perspective.

  34. @songbird
    I was thinking recently about Mozart's Seraglio opera. Nearly the only connection I can think of with Muslims and classical music are the flights of fancies of men like Mozart.

    Other than that, I understand that there is some Arab/Jewish children's orchestra, but that seems a bit like a Potemkin Village.

    One of the points Kim Stanley Robinson gets across in his novel The Years of Rice and Salt, an alternative history in which Black Death wiped out 99% of Europe’s population, is how WEIRD classical music and other European inventions are. Here, a Muslim, drawing on early Christian music, fumbles toward discovering classical music.

    • Replies: @Corn
    I read that book years ago. I really enjoyed it. Robinson is a flaming lefty but the man can write.
  35. @Anonymous
    How do you know it was abduction?

    How do you know it was abduction?

    I don’t. And Irish historians greatly outnumber Icelandic ones, so maybe it’s just their spin.

    • Replies: @songbird

    and Iceland’s Celtic blood quantum is around 25%.
     
    Started off around 50%, based on ancient DNA. Slaves probably didn't have as many children.
  36. @Steve Sailer
    Edward "Orientalism" Said was a near professional quality concert pianist and the opera critic for "The Nation" magazine.

    Edward “Orientalism” Said was a near professional quality concert pianist and the opera critic for “The Nation” magazine.

    I can’t imagine a more “right-wing” art form than opera, even more than farce. It’s just incredible that The Nation would cover it at all, but that says something about the means of their subscribers.

    They do have a good crossword, though. When a library discards a pile of old issues, I grab them and rip out the last page.

  37. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Edward "Orientalism" Said was a near professional quality concert pianist and the opera critic for "The Nation" magazine.

    Said was a product of the period when France, Britain, and Russia promoted, protected, and competed for influence among the Christian, Jewish, and minor religion groups like Alawites at the expense of the decayed Ottoman state.

    Ike allowing Egypt to seize the Suez Canal from its Western Christian shareholders was a message to Lebanese Christians that the West wouldn’t protect them from Jihad and Islamification. With the loss of Lebanon, Israel and South Cyprus are the only remaining Crusader States.

    • Replies: @IHTG
    Well historically Malta counts as one too.
  38. @Steve Sailer
    Edward "Orientalism" Said was a near professional quality concert pianist and the opera critic for "The Nation" magazine.

    Said’s family weren’t Muslims but Orthodox

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I thought Said was Episcopalian.
  39. @J.Ross
    The Algierians are not Turks.

    Right, but Algiers was part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire at the time during which the opera is set. The bey would have been a Turkish – not, say, Berber – ruler; “bey” is a Turkish term. Thus, a similar piece set in India of the time might well have the protagonist be a governing Briton because, well, the British were fairly well in charge of all the Hindoos at that place and time….

    The quip that conflating Turks with Arabs stands, mind; it shows the stupidity of the asshat working so hard to show how worldly and hip he is via knowledge of politically correct orthodoxy rather than actual history.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Plenty of Beys were not Turkish. There is a family in Nigeria that still keeps alive the title an ancestor had received. And plenty of Arabs were created "Bay." If I had more time I expect to dig up a technical Yugoslav. Bey is not a high rank and the Ottomans depended on tribal allegiaces.

    in Qusantina (Constantine in French), an Ottoman district subject to the Algiers regency since 1525 (had its own Beys since 1567), the last incumbent, Ahmed Bey ben Mohamed Chérif (b. c. 1784, in office 1826–1848, d. 1850), was maintained when in 1826 the local Kabyle population declared independence, and when it was on 13 October 1837 conquered by France, until it was incorporated into Algeria in 1848.
     
    The pasha would definitely be Turkish. The bey might be the (lower level) local guy who was already ruling and swore fealty.
  40. @songbird
    I was thinking recently about Mozart's Seraglio opera. Nearly the only connection I can think of with Muslims and classical music are the flights of fancies of men like Mozart.

    Other than that, I understand that there is some Arab/Jewish children's orchestra, but that seems a bit like a Potemkin Village.

    I do know that at least around 15 years ago there was some kind of Omani symphony orchestra (shown on late night tv). They wore Omani clothes and IIRC they were all men.
    The playing was pretty dreadful but I was heartened that they were trying.
    On the other hand, I’ve tried to find examples of muslim classical performers in modern Europe and there is not very much which does not speak promisingly of the future of classical music in its homeland (unless North and South Americans and East Asians step up and fill the gap).

  41. OT or not? On the opposite side of Islam, India produces at least the three top-selling whiskeys in the world, including Officer’s Choice, which does two-and-a-half times the business of Jack Daniel’s.

    But even that is topped by Jinro soju from Korea and Thailand’s Ruang Khao rum.

    Are the Asians outdrinking us? Or is it a matter of many more choices in the West?

    https://www.liquor.com/articles/indian-whiskey-brand-is-the-best-selling-whiskey-in-the-world/#gs.iholKN0

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    "Are the Asians outdrinking us? Or is it a matter of many more choices in the West?"

    At least when it comes to South Koreans, the answer is they are outdrinking us. (and not by a little). Even allowing for the difference in alcohol percentage between the average Russian drink and the average Korean drink, Koreans drink at least as much as Russians,if not more.

    https://qz.com/171191/south-koreans-drink-twice-as-much-liquor-as-russians-and-more-than-four-times-as-much-as-americans/
    , @Brutusale
    Best scotch in the world two years running...for $17 at Aldi's.

    https://www.esquire.com/food-drink/drinks/a21343868/aldi-whisky-best-in-world/

    But yes, the Asians are outdrinking us.
  42. @Anonymous
    How do you know it was abduction?

    How do you know it was abduction?

    To the extent there is any historical record, the Landnámabók, the “Book of Settlements”, describes the settlement of Iceland with a significant Irish slave population. The Viking enslavement of the Irish was pretty systematic and well recorded. Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire. One such British slave, St. Patrick, brought Christianity to Ireland.

    There was an early Irish slave rebellion in Iceland recorded in the Landnámabók and the freed slaves settled on the island of Vestmannaeyjar off the coast of Iceland. The name comes from the Viking name for the Irish which was “Vestmenn” or “Men of the West”. In a historic irony or perhaps simply a fact of history, Vestmannaeyjar was one of the islands off of Iceland enslaved by the Islamic Barbary Pirates in the 1600s.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Thank you, Clifford. That is fascinating. It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who much have been much more familiar with the land and climate.

    Do you have a good book to recommend on the Barbary Pirate slave trade?

    Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire.
     
    Any reference for this activity would also be welcome.
  43. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @Clifford Brown

    How do you know it was abduction?
     
    To the extent there is any historical record, the Landnámabók, the “Book of Settlements”, describes the settlement of Iceland with a significant Irish slave population. The Viking enslavement of the Irish was pretty systematic and well recorded. Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire. One such British slave, St. Patrick, brought Christianity to Ireland.

    There was an early Irish slave rebellion in Iceland recorded in the Landnámabók and the freed slaves settled on the island of Vestmannaeyjar off the coast of Iceland. The name comes from the Viking name for the Irish which was "Vestmenn" or "Men of the West". In a historic irony or perhaps simply a fact of history, Vestmannaeyjar was one of the islands off of Iceland enslaved by the Islamic Barbary Pirates in the 1600s.

    Thank you, Clifford. That is fascinating. It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who much have been much more familiar with the land and climate.

    Do you have a good book to recommend on the Barbary Pirate slave trade?

    Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire.

    Any reference for this activity would also be welcome.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    Dublin was a Viking city - they came from Ireland, but weren't really Irish.

    http://www.buildinghistory.org/bristol/saxonslaves.shtml

    Bristol was an outlet for English slaves for generations. Around the time of the Norman Conquest, we are told that slave-trading was a long-established custom of Bristolians, come down from their forefathers. It was the last Saxon bishop of Worcester who stopped it. Wulfstan became Bishop of Worcester just a few years before the upheaval of the Norman conquest. He remained in office until his death in 1095. This saintly man was appalled by sights he saw in Bristol.

    They used to buy men from all over England and carry them to Ireland in the hope of gain; nay they even set forth for sale women whom they had themselves gotten with child. You might well groan to see the long rows of young men and maidens whose beauty and youth might move the pity of a savage, bound together with cords, and brought to market to be sold.

    Why Ireland? The Vikings had founded ports there, such as Dublin. And the Vikings were the greatest slave traders of northern Europe at this time. So Dublin was a slave entrepôt. English slaves shipped from Bristol could be bought for labour in Iceland, Scandinavia or even Arabic Spain.
     
    , @Ximenes

    " It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who much have been much more familiar with the land and climate."
     
    The pirate ships were often captained by men from Protestant countries like England and Holland. The backdrop to the white slavery story is the Protestant Reformation, that's why the vast majority of slaves were scooped up from the shores of Catholic countries like Italy, Ireland and Spain.

    The doctrine of Protestantism not only shattered the Christian unity that had existed, but cast loyal Catholic population as heretics deserving of any fate, even slavery.
    , @Eagle Eye

    It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who must have been much more familiar with the land and climate.
     
    The Barbary pirates availed themselves of the navigational and maritime expertise of a renegade Dutch captain who had conveniently converted to Islam.
  44. @DFH
    Said's family weren't Muslims but Orthodox

    I thought Said was Episcopalian.

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    Said was baptized and raised Episcopalian, but his extended family may have included Greek Orthodox. Said's maternal grandfather was a Baptist minister in Palestine. Said married a Quaker, and identified as agnostic. He is pretty slippery on the identity question.

    One wonders whether the multi-faceted, shifting and ultimately rootless religious and ethnic identity that Said represented really scales to the broader population or is it best left to those who are self-involved hyper-intellectuals.

    In this clip, Said states he is Episcopalian at 17:37 and later states he is "probably" agnostic. He can't even commit to agnosticism. Regardless, he is anti-religion, as well as anti-borders and anti-nationalism.

    https://charlierose.com/videos/29066

    , @Charles Pewitt

    I thought Said was Episcopalian.

     

    Madeleine Albright is an E-Pesky-Palian. She loved to see him wrap one around that 302 foot pole.

    https://youtu.be/E0VKdaxrYIo
  45. Tonight on the ZULU network: The comedy of sex slavery of white women.

    Keeping in mind that slavery was bad, we have a fun and exciting adventure when an uptight white girl who wants to get married and have children with a white man is kidnapped, restrained and whipped until she becomes the sex slave of many dominant non-white males that abuse her.

    Feminists say this is fine cause of slavery. Slavery bad. White girls need to atone.

    Critics are thrilled at this fine depiction of atonement and slavery to atone for slavery.

    ZULU Network.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II
    You just described Tiny Duck's desideratum.
  46. @istevefan

    The kidnapping into sex slavery of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

     

    For those interested in this topic I suggest the following book by Professor Robert Davis of Ohio State, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    The 1 million figure is separate from the nearly 2 million Russians/Ukrainians who were enslaved around Crimea. That slave trade is not discussed in this book.

    I’ve recommended it before, but “The Stolen Village” is the story of an entire Irish town, the inhabitants of which were seized and enslaved in the fifteenth century.
    I think only a handful ever made it back to Ireland.
    I seem to remember that the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Do you know of any books on the Irish conducting slave raids into Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire?
    , @Anonymous
    The victims were English settlers - so it was a bonus for the Irish collaborators with the raiders.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    That was Baltimore in County Cork.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore
    , @Almost Missouri

    "the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously"
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

    BTW, his son became the founding settler of Brooklyn.
  47. @Buzz Mohawk
    Some women manifest "exciting temperaments" when you least expect it.

    The trashy part of me is smitten with this girl:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/waitress-discusses-taking-down-man-who-groped-her-'we-deal-with-a-lot'/ar-BBKWYB0?OCID=ansmsnnews11

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.

    I like my women just a little on the trashy side!

  48. The kidnapping into sex slavery of vast numbers of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

    Well — there are lots (lots!) of local holidays at the mediterranian coast with parades and all, and they have still plays and parades, with the whole villages on their feet, reenacting those kidnappings. I took part in one of those playful parades in the very senic village of Portoferraio on Elba a few times. Very charming and scenic- but very clear, too: Young women are “running away” and are then – – “caught” – – again and again by men, who ‘s faces are painted brwon and who look – – oriental.

    The memory hole does not exist for those villagers – but it is quite real for the Swiss and German tourists, who (I’ve spoken to some of them) – practically never get, what these “amazing customs” and holidays are about…
    I even had a discussion on a German blog with a writer of the FAZ last summer, who had absolutely no clue, what was going on, even though he had – with his entire family – taken part in such such a “kidnapping”-festival himself. – He insisted, that it would signal – believe it or not: Enthusiasm for multiculturalism (the “kidanppers” faces are painted dark brown, so: For him this showed the enthusiasm of the locals for their neighbours in northern Africa… – their openness and tolerance etc.
    He gave in to my arguments after a while though.

  49. No need for a prog panic. I’m sure progressives will be able to find a creative way to deal with this potentially embarrassing historical subject. The North African slave owners also had lots of blacks slaves, so they could probably fashion a play where the white slaves are helped, protected, and charmed by the wise, virtuous black and mulatto slaves.

    The only real stumbling block is that black male slaves tended to be castrated. Not sure many black males actors would be up for a role where they had to act as a eunuch.

  50. @Autochthon
    Right, but Algiers was part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire at the time during which the opera is set. The bey would have been a Turkish – not, say, Berber – ruler; "bey" is a Turkish term. Thus, a similar piece set in India of the time might well have the protagonist be a governing Briton because, well, the British were fairly well in charge of all the Hindoos at that place and time....

    The quip that conflating Turks with Arabs stands, mind; it shows the stupidity of the asshat working so hard to show how worldly and hip he is via knowledge of politically correct orthodoxy rather than actual history.

    Plenty of Beys were not Turkish. There is a family in Nigeria that still keeps alive the title an ancestor had received. And plenty of Arabs were created “Bay.” If I had more time I expect to dig up a technical Yugoslav. Bey is not a high rank and the Ottomans depended on tribal allegiaces.

    in Qusantina (Constantine in French), an Ottoman district subject to the Algiers regency since 1525 (had its own Beys since 1567), the last incumbent, Ahmed Bey ben Mohamed Chérif (b. c. 1784, in office 1826–1848, d. 1850), was maintained when in 1826 the local Kabyle population declared independence, and when it was on 13 October 1837 conquered by France, until it was incorporated into Algeria in 1848.

    The pasha would definitely be Turkish. The bey might be the (lower level) local guy who was already ruling and swore fealty.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Muhammad Ali, the dynamic dictator of Egypt in the early 1800s under the nominal authority of the Ottoman Empire, was an Albanian.
    , @Romanian
    Plenty of Balkan origin Beys, as well as Greeks, Armenians and so on.

    And let's not forget, of course, that sometimes the slaves ended up pretty powerful (though they had converted in the meantime). The Janissaries were basically abducted Europeans or blood tributes, and they ended up very powerful indeed. One of the fancier Turkish soap operas concerns the harem intrigue of a powerful sultan, and the power the women (many of them foreign) wielded.
  51. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG
    I’ve recommended it before, but “The Stolen Village” is the story of an entire Irish town, the inhabitants of which were seized and enslaved in the fifteenth century.
    I think only a handful ever made it back to Ireland.
    I seem to remember that the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously.

    Do you know of any books on the Irish conducting slave raids into Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I’m sorry, I don’t. I’ll see if I can find anything though.
  52. @peterike
    “They decided to change Mustafa’s status from an Ottoman bey to a kind of local gangster who smuggles electronics at the port of modern-day Algiers, because they “felt that his behavior shouldn’t be generalized as Muslim behavior.” …”

    Ummmm... A gangster electronics smuggler seems pretty darn Muslim to me.

    This line stood out to me too. “I know how we can be sensitive Muslims. Rather than portraying them as rulers of a great empire, let’s portray them as petty criminals!”

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @ThirdWorldSteveReader
    Very true. The treatment was worse as the disease.
  53. @Steve Sailer
    I thought Said was Episcopalian.

    Said was baptized and raised Episcopalian, but his extended family may have included Greek Orthodox. Said’s maternal grandfather was a Baptist minister in Palestine. Said married a Quaker, and identified as agnostic. He is pretty slippery on the identity question.

    One wonders whether the multi-faceted, shifting and ultimately rootless religious and ethnic identity that Said represented really scales to the broader population or is it best left to those who are self-involved hyper-intellectuals.

    In this clip, Said states he is Episcopalian at 17:37 and later states he is “probably” agnostic. He can’t even commit to agnosticism. Regardless, he is anti-religion, as well as anti-borders and anti-nationalism.

    https://charlierose.com/videos/29066

  54. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:

    Indeed, within living memory, Italian women had full personal experience of Magrehbi sexual aggression – the mass rapes/massacres perpetrated by Moroccan forces supposedly under French control, (surely the failure of the French officer corps to control/punish the rapists reveals a back story in itself..but I digress).

    Puts a whole new perspective on the sheer *STUPIDITY, COWARDICE, INCOMPETENCE and SELF-LOATHING* of the modern Italian state in not outright and explicitly forbidding massive Magrehbi immigration into Italy.

    God – How I would absolutely *HATE* to be born as an Italian.

    Nothing personal – I just *HATE* the shit who used to govern you.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Sophia Loren won an Oscar for her Italian-language portrayal of an Italian woman raped by the Moroccan forces allowed two days of rapine by their French commander for taking Monte Cassino.

    Two Women.

    , @Anonymous
    IIRC, the Italian communities living in Libya and Tunisia were also attacked by local Arabs in the disorders that accompanied the collapse of Italian rule there. Lots of rapes and murders.
  55. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG
    I’ve recommended it before, but “The Stolen Village” is the story of an entire Irish town, the inhabitants of which were seized and enslaved in the fifteenth century.
    I think only a handful ever made it back to Ireland.
    I seem to remember that the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously.

    The victims were English settlers – so it was a bonus for the Irish collaborators with the raiders.

  56. @peterike
    “They decided to change Mustafa’s status from an Ottoman bey to a kind of local gangster who smuggles electronics at the port of modern-day Algiers, because they “felt that his behavior shouldn’t be generalized as Muslim behavior.” …”

    Ummmm... A gangster electronics smuggler seems pretty darn Muslim to me.

    Exactly. If anything, the change to the opera makes sense to me and makes it more relevant. On a day-to-day basis Algerian criminals are far more likely to assault European women than are Turkish nobles.

  57. @Anonymous
    Indeed, within living memory, Italian women had full personal experience of Magrehbi sexual aggression - the mass rapes/massacres perpetrated by Moroccan forces supposedly under French control, (surely the failure of the French officer corps to control/punish the rapists reveals a back story in itself..but I digress).

    Puts a whole new perspective on the sheer *STUPIDITY, COWARDICE, INCOMPETENCE and SELF-LOATHING* of the modern Italian state in not outright and explicitly forbidding massive Magrehbi immigration into Italy.

    God - How I would absolutely *HATE* to be born as an Italian.

    Nothing personal - I just *HATE* the shit who used to govern you.

    Sophia Loren won an Oscar for her Italian-language portrayal of an Italian woman raped by the Moroccan forces allowed two days of rapine by their French commander for taking Monte Cassino.

    Two Women.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The back story must be that Mussolini attacked France unprovoked - in order to satisfy some recidivist claims on the south of France.

    Surely, there can't possibly be any other explanation. Surely, the French officers knew of the distinction that prevailed at that time between Europeans and non-Europeans, and the iron law that 'civilised' armies summarily executed rapists of their own.
  58. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Sophia Loren won an Oscar for her Italian-language portrayal of an Italian woman raped by the Moroccan forces allowed two days of rapine by their French commander for taking Monte Cassino.

    Two Women.

    The back story must be that Mussolini attacked France unprovoked – in order to satisfy some recidivist claims on the south of France.

    Surely, there can’t possibly be any other explanation. Surely, the French officers knew of the distinction that prevailed at that time between Europeans and non-Europeans, and the iron law that ‘civilised’ armies summarily executed rapists of their own.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Monte Cassino help up the Allies advance up Italy for four months.
  59. @Buzz Mohawk
    Some women manifest "exciting temperaments" when you least expect it.

    The trashy part of me is smitten with this girl:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/waitress-discusses-taking-down-man-who-groped-her-'we-deal-with-a-lot'/ar-BBKWYB0?OCID=ansmsnnews11

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.

    So edgy.

    This video and the reactions to it have been revealing. At most, the guy should have been thrown out of and banned from the restaurant. Arresting him is pretty ridiculous. If having her sluttily-dressed ass grabbed was the worst thing that happened to her that week then she had a pretty good week.

    And I don’t think her response was so horrific but it wasn’t praiseworthy either. It was absolutely an overreaction. He was no threat to her. She was not defending herself.

    I don’t want to see either of them charged, but if he’s gonna be charged then she should be too. What she did was unquestionably assault and battery, far more violent than what he did. The You-Go-Girl!-ism we are seeing about this is contemptible, especially juxtaposed with the progscum outrage at that dude in Florida who shot the dindu who had shoved him to the ground for telling the dindu’s girlfriend not to park in the handicap parking without a permit.

    • Agree: Cloudbuster
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    You're taking me way too seriously on this one, dude.
    , @bomag
    I had similar thoughts.

    I suppose it is useful to set an example for the protection of women's virtue, an important though laughably neglected institution.
  60. @Anonymous
    The back story must be that Mussolini attacked France unprovoked - in order to satisfy some recidivist claims on the south of France.

    Surely, there can't possibly be any other explanation. Surely, the French officers knew of the distinction that prevailed at that time between Europeans and non-Europeans, and the iron law that 'civilised' armies summarily executed rapists of their own.

    Monte Cassino help up the Allies advance up Italy for four months.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Monte Cassino help up the Allies advance up Italy for four months.
     
    Hadn't the Italians cashed it in by that point. I thought that Monte Cassino was defended entirely by the Germans.

    Crawling up the spine of Italy - another strategic brainstorm of Winston Churchill. Hey - let's traverse a mountain range the long way! As a military strategist, he was a fine brick-layer.
  61. @J.Ross
    Plenty of Beys were not Turkish. There is a family in Nigeria that still keeps alive the title an ancestor had received. And plenty of Arabs were created "Bay." If I had more time I expect to dig up a technical Yugoslav. Bey is not a high rank and the Ottomans depended on tribal allegiaces.

    in Qusantina (Constantine in French), an Ottoman district subject to the Algiers regency since 1525 (had its own Beys since 1567), the last incumbent, Ahmed Bey ben Mohamed Chérif (b. c. 1784, in office 1826–1848, d. 1850), was maintained when in 1826 the local Kabyle population declared independence, and when it was on 13 October 1837 conquered by France, until it was incorporated into Algeria in 1848.
     
    The pasha would definitely be Turkish. The bey might be the (lower level) local guy who was already ruling and swore fealty.

    Muhammad Ali, the dynamic dictator of Egypt in the early 1800s under the nominal authority of the Ottoman Empire, was an Albanian.

  62. @Alfa158
    We can’t forget about the piracy, looting and kidnapping where I came from. We don’t need the operas because the Amalfi coast has watch towers called “Saracenos” on every headland that were there to protect against the depredations of Muslims who took over a million Europeans as slaves.
    BTW Bartoli is very talented but doesn’t have a lot of power, so her voice is better suited for recitals and recordings than trying to fill a large opera hall unamplified. She was a bit underwhelming in performances at the Dorothy Chandler.

    the Amalfi coast has watch towers called “Saracenos” on every headland that were there to protect against the depredations of Muslims who took over a million Europeans as slaves

    Bantayan Island in The Philippines is named for watch towers that were built to give early notice of Moro (aka Muslim) pirate slaver raids.

  63. @J.Ross
    Plenty of Beys were not Turkish. There is a family in Nigeria that still keeps alive the title an ancestor had received. And plenty of Arabs were created "Bay." If I had more time I expect to dig up a technical Yugoslav. Bey is not a high rank and the Ottomans depended on tribal allegiaces.

    in Qusantina (Constantine in French), an Ottoman district subject to the Algiers regency since 1525 (had its own Beys since 1567), the last incumbent, Ahmed Bey ben Mohamed Chérif (b. c. 1784, in office 1826–1848, d. 1850), was maintained when in 1826 the local Kabyle population declared independence, and when it was on 13 October 1837 conquered by France, until it was incorporated into Algeria in 1848.
     
    The pasha would definitely be Turkish. The bey might be the (lower level) local guy who was already ruling and swore fealty.

    Plenty of Balkan origin Beys, as well as Greeks, Armenians and so on.

    And let’s not forget, of course, that sometimes the slaves ended up pretty powerful (though they had converted in the meantime). The Janissaries were basically abducted Europeans or blood tributes, and they ended up very powerful indeed. One of the fancier Turkish soap operas concerns the harem intrigue of a powerful sultan, and the power the women (many of them foreign) wielded.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    One of the fancier Turkish soap operas concerns the harem intrigue of a powerful sultan, and the power the women (many of them foreign) wielded.
     
    I hear that Turkey actually has a pretty good cinema production culture; I know that the director of the first(and only worthwhile) Conan the Barbarian made a final effort to do a proper sequel in Turkey before it got canned for the reboot monstrosity.
  64. They should set the opera in a children’s home in Rotherham. That would make it very relevant and contemporary.

    • LOL: Kylie
  65. @istevefan

    The kidnapping into sex slavery of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

     

    For those interested in this topic I suggest the following book by Professor Robert Davis of Ohio State, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    The 1 million figure is separate from the nearly 2 million Russians/Ukrainians who were enslaved around Crimea. That slave trade is not discussed in this book.

    And, of course, all of the Balkan slaves, either taken in war or as blood tribute.

    Another big set of slavers were the Tatars, who carried off large populations in their various raids for personal use or resale. Whole villages would disappear and tradition has it that they killed or carried off half of the Moldovan population beyond the river Siret on two occasions, there not being many geographic barriers to their passing.

  66. @Buzz Mohawk
    Seriously, there was a good article here on Unz recently about white slavery, in case anybody missed it. It's an eye-opener:

    Whites in Servitude in Early America and Industrial Britain

    Well, by that token, you had the medieval villein system in Britain. Up to modern times, serfdom and other forms of it were widely practiced in Eastern Europe. It was abolished early in the 19th century in my country, late 19th century in Russia, around the time gypsy slavery also ended. It is interesting to think that the Brits were freeing black slaves while there were still white ones in other parts of Europe. Really gives you a sort of ample view of the general state of the world, despite people hogging the various victim pokemon points.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Good to hear from you. My wife and I just got back from a week in Romania. The big news at our place there was the new enclosures constructed around the dumpsters to keep the gypsies out. They used to come every morning and pick through the garbage, leaving what they didn't want on the ground.
  67. Cecilia Bartoli really is a wonderful singer. She has an album of non-operatic chamber songs by Mozart and others that I wholeheartedly recommend:

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    She explained that opera singer is the best job in the world: she can eat anything she likes and she is under orders to sleep 9.5 hours per night.
  68. @Spotted Toad
    Cecilia Bartoli really is a wonderful singer. She has an album of non-operatic chamber songs by Mozart and others that I wholeheartedly recommend:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pasmjx0vehE

    She explained that opera singer is the best job in the world: she can eat anything she likes and she is under orders to sleep 9.5 hours per night.

  69. @Buzz Mohawk
    Some women manifest "exciting temperaments" when you least expect it.

    The trashy part of me is smitten with this girl:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/waitress-discusses-taking-down-man-who-groped-her-'we-deal-with-a-lot'/ar-BBKWYB0?OCID=ansmsnnews11

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.

    Though the typical muslim trash might have killed her for doing that. There are better solutions to the muslim issue.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
  70. @Lot
    Said was a product of the period when France, Britain, and Russia promoted, protected, and competed for influence among the Christian, Jewish, and minor religion groups like Alawites at the expense of the decayed Ottoman state.

    Ike allowing Egypt to seize the Suez Canal from its Western Christian shareholders was a message to Lebanese Christians that the West wouldn't protect them from Jihad and Islamification. With the loss of Lebanon, Israel and South Cyprus are the only remaining Crusader States.

    http://www.renegadebroadcasting.com/media/trump-crusader-knight-for-jews.jpg

    Well historically Malta counts as one too.

  71. “Abduction from the Seraglio” was the first thing that came to mind for me too when I saw this article. I remember it especially from a key scene in “Amadeus”.

  72. @Dave Pinsen
    One of the points Kim Stanley Robinson gets across in his novel The Years of Rice and Salt, an alternative history in which Black Death wiped out 99% of Europe's population, is how WEIRD classical music and other European inventions are. Here, a Muslim, drawing on early Christian music, fumbles toward discovering classical music.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/848060216730144768

    I read that book years ago. I really enjoyed it. Robinson is a flaming lefty but the man can write.

    • Agree: Dave Pinsen
  73. She is searching for her fiancé, Lindoro, who was captured by pirates and who now, by coincidence, is a servant in Mustafa’s court

    Read “slave” not “servant”.

    Why do moderns feel compelled to downgrade and soften Muslim culture? Instead of using romantic terms like “harem” or “seraglio”, call the women “sex slaves”.

  74. “He said they attempted to navigate the work by trying to be perfectly clear about the political messages they were sending.”

    Ah, the essence of good art.

  75. @Reg Cæsar
    OT or not? On the opposite side of Islam, India produces at least the three top-selling whiskeys in the world, including Officer's Choice, which does two-and-a-half times the business of Jack Daniel's.

    But even that is topped by Jinro soju from Korea and Thailand's Ruang Khao rum.

    Are the Asians outdrinking us? Or is it a matter of many more choices in the West?

    https://www.liquor.com/articles/indian-whiskey-brand-is-the-best-selling-whiskey-in-the-world/#gs.iholKN0

    “Are the Asians outdrinking us? Or is it a matter of many more choices in the West?”

    At least when it comes to South Koreans, the answer is they are outdrinking us. (and not by a little). Even allowing for the difference in alcohol percentage between the average Russian drink and the average Korean drink, Koreans drink at least as much as Russians,if not more.

    https://qz.com/171191/south-koreans-drink-twice-as-much-liquor-as-russians-and-more-than-four-times-as-much-as-americans/

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    At least when it comes to South Koreans, the answer is they are outdrinking us.
     
    They probably need it to down all that kimchi and dog meat. Also, an average Korean man could floor any Italian with his garlic breath.

    (I'll let Jefferson and Twinkie duke this one out, though.)
  76. @MBlanc46
    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.

    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.

    At least you can negotiate with ISIS.

  77. @Reg Cæsar
    OT or not? On the opposite side of Islam, India produces at least the three top-selling whiskeys in the world, including Officer's Choice, which does two-and-a-half times the business of Jack Daniel's.

    But even that is topped by Jinro soju from Korea and Thailand's Ruang Khao rum.

    Are the Asians outdrinking us? Or is it a matter of many more choices in the West?

    https://www.liquor.com/articles/indian-whiskey-brand-is-the-best-selling-whiskey-in-the-world/#gs.iholKN0

    Best scotch in the world two years running…for $17 at Aldi’s.

    https://www.esquire.com/food-drink/drinks/a21343868/aldi-whisky-best-in-world/

    But yes, the Asians are outdrinking us.

  78. @Anonymous
    Thank you, Clifford. That is fascinating. It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who much have been much more familiar with the land and climate.

    Do you have a good book to recommend on the Barbary Pirate slave trade?

    Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire.
     
    Any reference for this activity would also be welcome.

    Dublin was a Viking city – they came from Ireland, but weren’t really Irish.

    http://www.buildinghistory.org/bristol/saxonslaves.shtml

    Bristol was an outlet for English slaves for generations. Around the time of the Norman Conquest, we are told that slave-trading was a long-established custom of Bristolians, come down from their forefathers. It was the last Saxon bishop of Worcester who stopped it. Wulfstan became Bishop of Worcester just a few years before the upheaval of the Norman conquest. He remained in office until his death in 1095. This saintly man was appalled by sights he saw in Bristol.

    They used to buy men from all over England and carry them to Ireland in the hope of gain; nay they even set forth for sale women whom they had themselves gotten with child. You might well groan to see the long rows of young men and maidens whose beauty and youth might move the pity of a savage, bound together with cords, and brought to market to be sold.

    Why Ireland? The Vikings had founded ports there, such as Dublin. And the Vikings were the greatest slave traders of northern Europe at this time. So Dublin was a slave entrepôt. English slaves shipped from Bristol could be bought for labour in Iceland, Scandinavia or even Arabic Spain.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    The Irish Slave Trade was well under way before the Vikings arrived. It was the reason for their arrival. Slavery was made illegal in England in 1101. The next Irish crew to arrive, in 1102, had their eyes gouged out.
  79. @JMcG
    I’ve recommended it before, but “The Stolen Village” is the story of an entire Irish town, the inhabitants of which were seized and enslaved in the fifteenth century.
    I think only a handful ever made it back to Ireland.
    I seem to remember that the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously.

    That was Baltimore in County Cork.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore

  80. @Steve Sailer
    Monte Cassino help up the Allies advance up Italy for four months.

    Monte Cassino help up the Allies advance up Italy for four months.

    Hadn’t the Italians cashed it in by that point. I thought that Monte Cassino was defended entirely by the Germans.

    Crawling up the spine of Italy – another strategic brainstorm of Winston Churchill. Hey – let’s traverse a mountain range the long way! As a military strategist, he was a fine brick-layer.

    • Agree: JMcG
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Churchill's passionate hobby was bricklaying.

    Apparently he built the walls surrounding his estate, Chartwell, with his own hands.

    I also confess an atavistic fascination with this particular artisanal craft - strictly bricks in Flemish or English bond, and not those god-awful concrete blocks which so abound these days.
  81. @JMcG
    I’ve recommended it before, but “The Stolen Village” is the story of an entire Irish town, the inhabitants of which were seized and enslaved in the fifteenth century.
    I think only a handful ever made it back to Ireland.
    I seem to remember that the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously.

    “the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

    BTW, his son became the founding settler of Brooklyn.

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown

    BTW, his son became the founding settler of Brooklyn.
     
    And Jan Janszoon's original Dutch name was van Haarlem.
  82. It is a peculiarity of Western culture that as soon as the looming threat of abduction, rape and enslavement is past, it becomes an immediate subject for light-hearted entertainment: comic operas and village festivals.

    Do the Chinese make humorous opera about Mongol onslaughts?

    No.

    Do the Arabs have jolly songs about Tamerlane?

    No.

    Do Apache do comedic pantomimes of Comanche abductions and enslavements?

    No.

    Did the Huaxtec recall with a giggle those times when the Aztecs captured and sacrificed them?

    No.

    It seems Westerners alone will identify with their barely-former persecutors, and rather than hold a grudge, make light of brutal history.

    Sometimes this makes for great traditions, such as the honorable foe and new ally.

    Other times it leads to ridiculous excesses: white ethno-masochism and leapfrogging loyalties.

    Anyhow, for good or ill, this Western peculiarity seems to have deep roots and so won’t be going away any time soon.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Fiction portraying an invincible conqueror that has to been saved through enlightening or enculturing them isn't actually all that uncommon in East Asia.

    Sometimes they include attacking their former countrymen or species who commit to a more violent method to destroy rather than to "save" their former enemies, which can be seen as ethnomasochism(such fiction usually doesn't seem to think of it as such) .

    This is particularly evident in Japanese and Chinese work which has to rationalize how being overrun physically isn't the end of the world, and takes pride in the idea of endurance and their notions of "higher civilization." But it is pretty self-evident from all of the "beautiful alien" work there there's a strong strain of condemnation against provincialism, and in that sense, its the probably the same with art anywhere? Art is always subversive and more liberal.
    , @bomag
    Makes me thing of the TV show Hogan's Heroes.
    , @Steve Sailer
    TB Macaulay noted that the English hated the Scottish highlander barbarians while the highlanders were a military threat to raid England (up through 1745), but soon after crush the Highlander threat permanently soon after 1745, England developed a giant highlander fad, such as in the Ossian hoax and the novels of Scott.

    You can see much the same in Americans with Indians. Americans who had contact with Indians, such as Mark Twain, seldom liked them, but Americans back east like Cooper liked them.

  83. “The kidnapping into sex slavery of vast numbers of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.”

    Likewise, the role of “southern hospitality” by stout Anglo-Saxon males and their sycophantic house Negroes toward black wenches would have been totally swept under the Anatolian rug had it not been for writer-director Quentin Tarantino’s intensely playful homage to Sergio Corbucci’s Django (1966) several years ago.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "would have been totally swept under the Anatolian rug had it not been for"

    Not at all, troll.


    "Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields
    Sold in a market down in New Orleans
    Scarred old slaver knows he's doing alright
    Hear him whip the women just around midnight

    Drums beating cold, English blood runs hot
    Lady of the house wonders where it's gonna stop..."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B0Y3LUqr1Q

  84. @Romanian
    Plenty of Balkan origin Beys, as well as Greeks, Armenians and so on.

    And let's not forget, of course, that sometimes the slaves ended up pretty powerful (though they had converted in the meantime). The Janissaries were basically abducted Europeans or blood tributes, and they ended up very powerful indeed. One of the fancier Turkish soap operas concerns the harem intrigue of a powerful sultan, and the power the women (many of them foreign) wielded.

    One of the fancier Turkish soap operas concerns the harem intrigue of a powerful sultan, and the power the women (many of them foreign) wielded.

    I hear that Turkey actually has a pretty good cinema production culture; I know that the director of the first(and only worthwhile) Conan the Barbarian made a final effort to do a proper sequel in Turkey before it got canned for the reboot monstrosity.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    The Breath is probably the best depiction of combat on film. (It's also interesting that its straightforward but not overbearing anti-Kurdish theme sounds just like standard Israeli hasbarah.)
  85. @Anonymous
    Were these Turks, Arabs, other Muslims? Do you happen to know whether people of Pakistan ever engaged in slave holding or trading?

    Indians have some stories about that.

  86. @Anonymous
    You are doing amazing work, Steve.

    I’ve never sung in L’Italiana in Algeri but I have sung in the Abduction. I sang Osmin. So I have thought a little and read a little about these operas (or singspiels). These are just the two of most famous in a series of shows once popular. In America the most common plot for our nineteenth century operas was Cowboys and Indians. In Europe they liked stories about sex slaves.

    It was clearly an appeal to subliminal BDSM interests. Read the text to Constanza’s great aria – “Marten Aller Arten”. Catch a woman, tie her up and torture her until she likes it. That’s pretty obviously a BDSM fantasy.

    “The Magic Flute” also has to be toned down in modern translations. I’ve sung Sarastro too. He delights in whipping the one black character in the plot. He also likes to humiliate and subjugate women. If someone had the guts they would cast Harvey Weinstein as Sarastro in a modernized production.

  87. @AndrewR

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.
     
    So edgy.

    This video and the reactions to it have been revealing. At most, the guy should have been thrown out of and banned from the restaurant. Arresting him is pretty ridiculous. If having her sluttily-dressed ass grabbed was the worst thing that happened to her that week then she had a pretty good week.

    And I don't think her response was so horrific but it wasn't praiseworthy either. It was absolutely an overreaction. He was no threat to her. She was not defending herself.

    I don't want to see either of them charged, but if he's gonna be charged then she should be too. What she did was unquestionably assault and battery, far more violent than what he did. The You-Go-Girl!-ism we are seeing about this is contemptible, especially juxtaposed with the progscum outrage at that dude in Florida who shot the dindu who had shoved him to the ground for telling the dindu's girlfriend not to park in the handicap parking without a permit.

    You’re taking me way too seriously on this one, dude.

  88. Anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri
    It is a peculiarity of Western culture that as soon as the looming threat of abduction, rape and enslavement is past, it becomes an immediate subject for light-hearted entertainment: comic operas and village festivals.

    Do the Chinese make humorous opera about Mongol onslaughts?

    No.

    Do the Arabs have jolly songs about Tamerlane?

    No.

    Do Apache do comedic pantomimes of Comanche abductions and enslavements?

    No.

    Did the Huaxtec recall with a giggle those times when the Aztecs captured and sacrificed them?

    No.

    It seems Westerners alone will identify with their barely-former persecutors, and rather than hold a grudge, make light of brutal history.

    Sometimes this makes for great traditions, such as the honorable foe and new ally.

    Other times it leads to ridiculous excesses: white ethno-masochism and leapfrogging loyalties.

    Anyhow, for good or ill, this Western peculiarity seems to have deep roots and so won't be going away any time soon.

    Fiction portraying an invincible conqueror that has to been saved through enlightening or enculturing them isn’t actually all that uncommon in East Asia.

    Sometimes they include attacking their former countrymen or species who commit to a more violent method to destroy rather than to “save” their former enemies, which can be seen as ethnomasochism(such fiction usually doesn’t seem to think of it as such) .

    This is particularly evident in Japanese and Chinese work which has to rationalize how being overrun physically isn’t the end of the world, and takes pride in the idea of endurance and their notions of “higher civilization.” But it is pretty self-evident from all of the “beautiful alien” work there there’s a strong strain of condemnation against provincialism, and in that sense, its the probably the same with art anywhere? Art is always subversive and more liberal.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >art is always liberal
    No. This is an artificial state of affairs, and very new. The Greeks had rigid restrictions on their art to keep it from getting too degenerate: it was not "for art's sake," it was a tool to mold the citizen and therefore the state.
    Recently I read a review of Katsuhiro Otomo's Akira in a red culture rag. The reviewer rewatched the flick but could not be bothered to read the manga. All the rightist stuff went over his head (camouflaged, as it were, in kimono) and he brought in the lecturing about how Americans are bad.
    The manga ends with the re-establishment of the Empire and with an unapologetically nationalist Japan rejecting foreign medical aid through an unexplained self-sufficiency derived, in the best fascist style, through sheer will.
  89. @Anonymous

    Perhaps it’s not ISIS they’re concerned about, but the multiculti enforcers.
     
    The real worry is that portraying non-Whites as a threat will stir group feeling among Whites. This could lead to solidarity and stronger group identity (external threats or perceptions of them do that) and cause Whites to act more collectively. For example, they could choose to close their borders against non-Whites.

    The avoidance of stirring group feeling among Whites seems the prevalent motive. Most (recent) accusations of racism I’ve noted seem preemptive against white group solidarity, rather than actual acts of overt bias or vilification on account of another’s race.

  90. @Christopher Chantrill
    Saw a performance of Cosi Fan Tutti a few months ago with the women in leggings and smartphones. It was a bit embarrassing to see "modern" women being tricked into cheating on their fiancés.

    Because trickery is not necessary…

  91. Not to mention harems and eunuchs and Ottoman rulers, which don’t seem so relevant today. …

    English girls of Rotherham, Telford, et al, unavailable for comment.

  92. @Alfa158
    We can’t forget about the piracy, looting and kidnapping where I came from. We don’t need the operas because the Amalfi coast has watch towers called “Saracenos” on every headland that were there to protect against the depredations of Muslims who took over a million Europeans as slaves.
    BTW Bartoli is very talented but doesn’t have a lot of power, so her voice is better suited for recitals and recordings than trying to fill a large opera hall unamplified. She was a bit underwhelming in performances at the Dorothy Chandler.

    Also, she needs to trim that beard a bit:

  93. @Romanian
    Well, by that token, you had the medieval villein system in Britain. Up to modern times, serfdom and other forms of it were widely practiced in Eastern Europe. It was abolished early in the 19th century in my country, late 19th century in Russia, around the time gypsy slavery also ended. It is interesting to think that the Brits were freeing black slaves while there were still white ones in other parts of Europe. Really gives you a sort of ample view of the general state of the world, despite people hogging the various victim pokemon points.

    Good to hear from you. My wife and I just got back from a week in Romania. The big news at our place there was the new enclosures constructed around the dumpsters to keep the gypsies out. They used to come every morning and pick through the garbage, leaving what they didn’t want on the ground.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    Had not heard about it. Usually, they try to keep brown bears out, not brown people, but I am a cord-cutter and only follow national politics. Hope you liked it. The place is a lot better since a lot of the undesirables left, though a lot of the smarties left too :( There was a piece of news in the main national newspaper on the Romanian math team for the International Olympiad which were held in Cluj recently - 4 out of 6 said they would be emigrating.

    Interestingly enough, Bashar Al-Assad's son, Hafez, was on the Syrian team. He did not get any medals. They have been participating since 2009 as a country. No gold medals yet, but respectable showings. Someone like Steve should definitely crunch the numbers for some insights. https://www.imo-official.org/results_country.aspx
  94. @Anonymous
    Thank you, Clifford. That is fascinating. It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who much have been much more familiar with the land and climate.

    Do you have a good book to recommend on the Barbary Pirate slave trade?

    Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire.
     
    Any reference for this activity would also be welcome.

    ” It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who much have been much more familiar with the land and climate.”

    The pirate ships were often captained by men from Protestant countries like England and Holland. The backdrop to the white slavery story is the Protestant Reformation, that’s why the vast majority of slaves were scooped up from the shores of Catholic countries like Italy, Ireland and Spain.

    The doctrine of Protestantism not only shattered the Christian unity that had existed, but cast loyal Catholic population as heretics deserving of any fate, even slavery.

  95. @Corvinus
    "The kidnapping into sex slavery of vast numbers of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio."

    Likewise, the role of "southern hospitality" by stout Anglo-Saxon males and their sycophantic house Negroes toward black wenches would have been totally swept under the Anatolian rug had it not been for writer-director Quentin Tarantino's intensely playful homage to Sergio Corbucci's Django (1966) several years ago.

    “would have been totally swept under the Anatolian rug had it not been for”

    Not at all, troll.

    “Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields
    Sold in a market down in New Orleans
    Scarred old slaver knows he’s doing alright
    Hear him whip the women just around midnight

    Drums beating cold, English blood runs hot
    Lady of the house wonders where it’s gonna stop…”

  96. Now, it’s ‘punch a zionist’

    https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/47087/

  97. “The kidnapping into sex slavery of vast numbers of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.”

    The linked book is about Barbary Coast enslavement. It doesn’t touch upon the yuge #s of slaves taken from Ukraine by the Ottomans. (Who also enslaved and castrated black men to guard the harems.) Google “Roxelana.”

  98. utu says:
    @istevefan

    The kidnapping into sex slavery of European women by Muslims would have completely disappeared down the Memory Hole if not for all the comic operas on the subject, such as Mozart’s breezy Abduction from the Seraglio.

     

    For those interested in this topic I suggest the following book by Professor Robert Davis of Ohio State, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800

    He documents the approximately 1 million Europeans enslaved during this time period. Interestingly a few folks from Iceland are included in his figures.

    The 1 million figure is separate from the nearly 2 million Russians/Ukrainians who were enslaved around Crimea. That slave trade is not discussed in this book.

    Russia can take a credit fro stopping slavery trade in and out of Crimea that was a major slave center.

    Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea

    https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/

    SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV

    http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources

    Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Was the Jewish participation in the White slave trade limited mostly to the overland routes, while the Muslims commandeered the maritime ones?
  99. @Almost Missouri

    "the captain of the slave raid was a Dutch sea captain who had been captured and chosen to convert to Islam previously"
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

    BTW, his son became the founding settler of Brooklyn.

    BTW, his son became the founding settler of Brooklyn.

    And Jan Janszoon’s original Dutch name was van Haarlem.

  100. @AndrewR

    European women should take her approach against Muslim creeps.
     
    So edgy.

    This video and the reactions to it have been revealing. At most, the guy should have been thrown out of and banned from the restaurant. Arresting him is pretty ridiculous. If having her sluttily-dressed ass grabbed was the worst thing that happened to her that week then she had a pretty good week.

    And I don't think her response was so horrific but it wasn't praiseworthy either. It was absolutely an overreaction. He was no threat to her. She was not defending herself.

    I don't want to see either of them charged, but if he's gonna be charged then she should be too. What she did was unquestionably assault and battery, far more violent than what he did. The You-Go-Girl!-ism we are seeing about this is contemptible, especially juxtaposed with the progscum outrage at that dude in Florida who shot the dindu who had shoved him to the ground for telling the dindu's girlfriend not to park in the handicap parking without a permit.

    I had similar thoughts.

    I suppose it is useful to set an example for the protection of women’s virtue, an important though laughably neglected institution.

  101. @Almost Missouri
    It is a peculiarity of Western culture that as soon as the looming threat of abduction, rape and enslavement is past, it becomes an immediate subject for light-hearted entertainment: comic operas and village festivals.

    Do the Chinese make humorous opera about Mongol onslaughts?

    No.

    Do the Arabs have jolly songs about Tamerlane?

    No.

    Do Apache do comedic pantomimes of Comanche abductions and enslavements?

    No.

    Did the Huaxtec recall with a giggle those times when the Aztecs captured and sacrificed them?

    No.

    It seems Westerners alone will identify with their barely-former persecutors, and rather than hold a grudge, make light of brutal history.

    Sometimes this makes for great traditions, such as the honorable foe and new ally.

    Other times it leads to ridiculous excesses: white ethno-masochism and leapfrogging loyalties.

    Anyhow, for good or ill, this Western peculiarity seems to have deep roots and so won't be going away any time soon.

    Makes me thing of the TV show Hogan’s Heroes.

  102. @Daniel Chieh

    One of the fancier Turkish soap operas concerns the harem intrigue of a powerful sultan, and the power the women (many of them foreign) wielded.
     
    I hear that Turkey actually has a pretty good cinema production culture; I know that the director of the first(and only worthwhile) Conan the Barbarian made a final effort to do a proper sequel in Turkey before it got canned for the reboot monstrosity.

    The Breath is probably the best depiction of combat on film. (It’s also interesting that its straightforward but not overbearing anti-Kurdish theme sounds just like standard Israeli hasbarah.)

  103. @cliff arroyo
    I do know that at least around 15 years ago there was some kind of Omani symphony orchestra (shown on late night tv). They wore Omani clothes and IIRC they were all men.
    The playing was pretty dreadful but I was heartened that they were trying.
    On the other hand, I've tried to find examples of muslim classical performers in modern Europe and there is not very much which does not speak promisingly of the future of classical music in its homeland (unless North and South Americans and East Asians step up and fill the gap).
  104. @Anonymous
    Fiction portraying an invincible conqueror that has to been saved through enlightening or enculturing them isn't actually all that uncommon in East Asia.

    Sometimes they include attacking their former countrymen or species who commit to a more violent method to destroy rather than to "save" their former enemies, which can be seen as ethnomasochism(such fiction usually doesn't seem to think of it as such) .

    This is particularly evident in Japanese and Chinese work which has to rationalize how being overrun physically isn't the end of the world, and takes pride in the idea of endurance and their notions of "higher civilization." But it is pretty self-evident from all of the "beautiful alien" work there there's a strong strain of condemnation against provincialism, and in that sense, its the probably the same with art anywhere? Art is always subversive and more liberal.

    >art is always liberal
    No. This is an artificial state of affairs, and very new. The Greeks had rigid restrictions on their art to keep it from getting too degenerate: it was not “for art’s sake,” it was a tool to mold the citizen and therefore the state.
    Recently I read a review of Katsuhiro Otomo’s Akira in a red culture rag. The reviewer rewatched the flick but could not be bothered to read the manga. All the rightist stuff went over his head (camouflaged, as it were, in kimono) and he brought in the lecturing about how Americans are bad.
    The manga ends with the re-establishment of the Empire and with an unapologetically nationalist Japan rejecting foreign medical aid through an unexplained self-sufficiency derived, in the best fascist style, through sheer will.

  105. Anonymous[329] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Monte Cassino help up the Allies advance up Italy for four months.
     
    Hadn't the Italians cashed it in by that point. I thought that Monte Cassino was defended entirely by the Germans.

    Crawling up the spine of Italy - another strategic brainstorm of Winston Churchill. Hey - let's traverse a mountain range the long way! As a military strategist, he was a fine brick-layer.

    Churchill’s passionate hobby was bricklaying.

    Apparently he built the walls surrounding his estate, Chartwell, with his own hands.

    I also confess an atavistic fascination with this particular artisanal craft – strictly bricks in Flemish or English bond, and not those god-awful concrete blocks which so abound these days.

  106. @Anonymous
    Thank you, Clifford. That is fascinating. It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who much have been much more familiar with the land and climate.

    Do you have a good book to recommend on the Barbary Pirate slave trade?

    Irish raiders were themselves busy enslaving the people of Great Britain in the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire.
     
    Any reference for this activity would also be welcome.

    It is simply astounding that the Barbary Pirates made it as far as Iceland. How were they even able to find Vestmanaeyjar, much less overpower the inhabitants, who must have been much more familiar with the land and climate.

    The Barbary pirates availed themselves of the navigational and maritime expertise of a renegade Dutch captain who had conveniently converted to Islam.

  107. @YetAnotherAnon
    Dublin was a Viking city - they came from Ireland, but weren't really Irish.

    http://www.buildinghistory.org/bristol/saxonslaves.shtml

    Bristol was an outlet for English slaves for generations. Around the time of the Norman Conquest, we are told that slave-trading was a long-established custom of Bristolians, come down from their forefathers. It was the last Saxon bishop of Worcester who stopped it. Wulfstan became Bishop of Worcester just a few years before the upheaval of the Norman conquest. He remained in office until his death in 1095. This saintly man was appalled by sights he saw in Bristol.

    They used to buy men from all over England and carry them to Ireland in the hope of gain; nay they even set forth for sale women whom they had themselves gotten with child. You might well groan to see the long rows of young men and maidens whose beauty and youth might move the pity of a savage, bound together with cords, and brought to market to be sold.

    Why Ireland? The Vikings had founded ports there, such as Dublin. And the Vikings were the greatest slave traders of northern Europe at this time. So Dublin was a slave entrepôt. English slaves shipped from Bristol could be bought for labour in Iceland, Scandinavia or even Arabic Spain.
     

    The Irish Slave Trade was well under way before the Vikings arrived. It was the reason for their arrival. Slavery was made illegal in England in 1101. The next Irish crew to arrive, in 1102, had their eyes gouged out.

    • Replies: @Anon

    The Irish Slave Trade was well under way before the Vikings arrived.
     
    Do you have any references?
  108. Now, I’ve seen everything.

    Simon and Justin. What is this world coming to?

  109. @kaganovitch
    "Are the Asians outdrinking us? Or is it a matter of many more choices in the West?"

    At least when it comes to South Koreans, the answer is they are outdrinking us. (and not by a little). Even allowing for the difference in alcohol percentage between the average Russian drink and the average Korean drink, Koreans drink at least as much as Russians,if not more.

    https://qz.com/171191/south-koreans-drink-twice-as-much-liquor-as-russians-and-more-than-four-times-as-much-as-americans/

    At least when it comes to South Koreans, the answer is they are outdrinking us.

    They probably need it to down all that kimchi and dog meat. Also, an average Korean man could floor any Italian with his garlic breath.

    (I’ll let Jefferson and Twinkie duke this one out, though.)

  110. @The Big Red Scary
    This line stood out to me too. "I know how we can be sensitive Muslims. Rather than portraying them as rulers of a great empire, let's portray them as petty criminals!"

    Very true. The treatment was worse as the disease.

  111. anonymous[449] • Disclaimer says:

    L’Italiana in Algeri is one of Rossini’s funniest, most brilliant, and most beautiful operas. I have never seen a performance on stage that was not butchered and rendered unwatchable. And I love this opera. I used to see it whenever it it was put on, which was relatively rarely. I prefer a recording.

    Point one: Stage direction of comic opera is invariably rotten as part of the general decline in SENSE OF HUMOR. This is apart from Moslem and feminist issues. Opera directors just don’t get it that the original creators of opera masterpieces had genius, and anything the current director adds, not matter how “clever”, just louses it up, can’t keep up with the music.

    Point two: It is amazing how Italian opera in the age of actual Moslem predation and slavery, and in the same era with raiding and kidnapping from Italian coastal towns, could still be light-hearted about it. Apparently “THAT’S NOT FUNNY” wiping out a whole art form is a modern invention. Stendahl has a whole chapter on L’Italiana in his bio of Rossini. The opera was so successful Rossini did a kind of sequel, Il Turco in Italia (another chapter in Stendahl), where the Arab comes to Italy an hilarity ensues. (“Turco” is still the general term in Latin countries for a Middle Eastern Moslem, Arab, whatever. They could joke about boiling people in oil, the stake etc. Cf. The Mikado. Also the Three Stooges.

    Point three: There is a tradition in opera and literature of the good, even wise Moslem. This idea especially contrasts with Crusader monsters and the Spanish Inquisiton. There’s El Cid, there’s Don Quixote (putatively written by a Moslem). The good Moslem appears in Lessing’s play Nathan The Wise.

    Point four: The genial Moslem bumbler appears in Mozart’s Seraglio and the Rossini operas discussed. This character will be totally abolished in opera in our day. In Mozart’s Cosi Fan Tutte the lovers disguise themselves as genial Albanian (i.e. Moslem) bumblers. Lots of jokes about their bizarre false mustaches, wild clothing, strange mannerisms. I saw a production in San Francisco where this business was all eliminated. Lots of good comedy lost.

    L’Italiana in Algeri is a wild comedy, but it actually has a diversity of characters on both the Arab and Italian sides. The dictatorial, later henpecked Mustafa is a clown, his assistant Haly is a competent servant, his Arab wife Elvira is faithful and sympathetic. Among the Italians, Isabella is perky and gutsy, her fiance Lindoro is romantic, her frustrated suitor Taddeo is a coward and buffoon. The virtuoso music is colorful and matches the story perfectly. Any change in the script makes a hash of the opera.

    Finally, even thinking about metoo stuff in connection with this opera is stupid beyond belief. But that’s the world of opera today.

    • Replies: @cliff arroyo
    I agree about how great L'Italiana is, easily my favorite Rossini opera. The climax of the first act as Isabella is introduced to Mustafa and begins conning him only to be caught up short by the sight of her beloved Lindoro is amazing stuff.
    I'm less amused by the pappataci stuff but it gets to the real point of the opera which is not making fun of Ottomans (who are basically props to get the comedy moving) but to make fun of Italians while simultaneously giving them a shot of patriotic spirit (pensa alla patria).
    If anything you could make the argument that the Algerians are also representative of Italians, they have good qualities (Haly, Elvira) but are bogged down by ineffectual dysfunctional government which needs to be brought in line with the people (Italianized).
    But the modern SJW mindset can't understand art - only propaganda and vulgar Marxist ranting.
  112. @Reg Cæsar

    How do you know it was abduction?
     
    I don't. And Irish historians greatly outnumber Icelandic ones, so maybe it's just their spin.

    and Iceland’s Celtic blood quantum is around 25%.

    Started off around 50%, based on ancient DNA. Slaves probably didn’t have as many children.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Apparently, it's strictly female mediated.

    The Scandinavian DNA is predominantly male.
  113. @Steve Sailer
    I thought Said was Episcopalian.

    I thought Said was Episcopalian.

    Madeleine Albright is an E-Pesky-Palian. She loved to see him wrap one around that 302 foot pole.

  114. @Philip Owen
    The Irish Slave Trade was well under way before the Vikings arrived. It was the reason for their arrival. Slavery was made illegal in England in 1101. The next Irish crew to arrive, in 1102, had their eyes gouged out.

    The Irish Slave Trade was well under way before the Vikings arrived.

    Do you have any references?

  115. Anonymous[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    Russia can take a credit fro stopping slavery trade in and out of Crimea that was a major slave center.

    Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea

    https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/

    SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV

    http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources

    Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ
     

    Was the Jewish participation in the White slave trade limited mostly to the overland routes, while the Muslims commandeered the maritime ones?

  116. @Dr. Doom
    Tonight on the ZULU network: The comedy of sex slavery of white women.

    Keeping in mind that slavery was bad, we have a fun and exciting adventure when an uptight white girl who wants to get married and have children with a white man is kidnapped, restrained and whipped until she becomes the sex slave of many dominant non-white males that abuse her.

    Feminists say this is fine cause of slavery. Slavery bad. White girls need to atone.

    Critics are thrilled at this fine depiction of atonement and slavery to atone for slavery.

    ZULU Network.

    You just described Tiny Duck’s desideratum.

  117. @Anonymous
    Do you know of any books on the Irish conducting slave raids into Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire?

    I’m sorry, I don’t. I’ll see if I can find anything though.

  118. @Almost Missouri
    It is a peculiarity of Western culture that as soon as the looming threat of abduction, rape and enslavement is past, it becomes an immediate subject for light-hearted entertainment: comic operas and village festivals.

    Do the Chinese make humorous opera about Mongol onslaughts?

    No.

    Do the Arabs have jolly songs about Tamerlane?

    No.

    Do Apache do comedic pantomimes of Comanche abductions and enslavements?

    No.

    Did the Huaxtec recall with a giggle those times when the Aztecs captured and sacrificed them?

    No.

    It seems Westerners alone will identify with their barely-former persecutors, and rather than hold a grudge, make light of brutal history.

    Sometimes this makes for great traditions, such as the honorable foe and new ally.

    Other times it leads to ridiculous excesses: white ethno-masochism and leapfrogging loyalties.

    Anyhow, for good or ill, this Western peculiarity seems to have deep roots and so won't be going away any time soon.

    TB Macaulay noted that the English hated the Scottish highlander barbarians while the highlanders were a military threat to raid England (up through 1745), but soon after crush the Highlander threat permanently soon after 1745, England developed a giant highlander fad, such as in the Ossian hoax and the novels of Scott.

    You can see much the same in Americans with Indians. Americans who had contact with Indians, such as Mark Twain, seldom liked them, but Americans back east like Cooper liked them.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    In 1683 Moslems nearly broke into the heart of Europe at the Siege of Vienna.

    Less than a century later Mozart wrote his sympathetic comedic opera Abduction from the Seraglio while standing on the exact same ground.

    Even the title shows the oddness of his identification. Obviously, to enter the Seraglio, one is abducted into it, but the title is "abduction from", as though the Seraglio were the rightful owner of Konstanza and her fiance were the illegitimate interloper.

    Another example:

    In 1941 Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. In 1963 the Japanese song "Sukiyaki", written about the composer's frustration with the US occupation of Japan, tops the English language Hot 100 charts.

    Another example:

    In 2001, Moslem puritanists murder several thousand Americans in America. Immediately after, the US government doubles legal Moslem immigration to the US and adds "Islamophobia" to the register of prohibited thoughts, while the media warn that real danger is imminent anti-Moslem "backlash", though it never quite goes through the formality of coming into existence.
    , @HA
    > "soon after crush the Highlander threat permanently soon after 1745, England developed a giant highlander fad, ...Americans who had contact with Indians, such as Mark Twain, seldom liked them, but Americans back east like Cooper liked them."

    Don't forget white nationalists like Asa Earl Carter, who went from segregationist KKK speechwriter for early George Wallace into a Dolezal-esque Native American guru. (He also wrote the book that would become the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales.)

    Croatian fascists felt the same way towards Bosnian Muslims once the Ottoman threat receded. They considered them "the bloom of the Croat nation", and the word "Ustashe" originally referred to a Bosnian Muslim rebel uprising, and was adopted as a tribute to them. They even refurbished a pavillion in WWII in middle of Zagreb and turned it into a mosque. None of that Muslim fetishizing caught on with the largely Catholic locals, but they were were just another fringe party before the Nazis appointed them to rule the puppet state.

    All this gets memory-holed (along with the anomalously high ethnically Jewish membership in their upper ranks) because it doesn't conform to the official line that the Ustashe were lapdogs of the Vatican, but why let facts get in the way of propaganda?

  119. @anonymous
    L'Italiana in Algeri is one of Rossini's funniest, most brilliant, and most beautiful operas. I have never seen a performance on stage that was not butchered and rendered unwatchable. And I love this opera. I used to see it whenever it it was put on, which was relatively rarely. I prefer a recording.

    Point one: Stage direction of comic opera is invariably rotten as part of the general decline in SENSE OF HUMOR. This is apart from Moslem and feminist issues. Opera directors just don't get it that the original creators of opera masterpieces had genius, and anything the current director adds, not matter how "clever", just louses it up, can't keep up with the music.

    Point two: It is amazing how Italian opera in the age of actual Moslem predation and slavery, and in the same era with raiding and kidnapping from Italian coastal towns, could still be light-hearted about it. Apparently "THAT'S NOT FUNNY" wiping out a whole art form is a modern invention. Stendahl has a whole chapter on L'Italiana in his bio of Rossini. The opera was so successful Rossini did a kind of sequel, Il Turco in Italia (another chapter in Stendahl), where the Arab comes to Italy an hilarity ensues. ("Turco" is still the general term in Latin countries for a Middle Eastern Moslem, Arab, whatever. They could joke about boiling people in oil, the stake etc. Cf. The Mikado. Also the Three Stooges.

    Point three: There is a tradition in opera and literature of the good, even wise Moslem. This idea especially contrasts with Crusader monsters and the Spanish Inquisiton. There's El Cid, there's Don Quixote (putatively written by a Moslem). The good Moslem appears in Lessing's play Nathan The Wise.

    Point four: The genial Moslem bumbler appears in Mozart's Seraglio and the Rossini operas discussed. This character will be totally abolished in opera in our day. In Mozart's Cosi Fan Tutte the lovers disguise themselves as genial Albanian (i.e. Moslem) bumblers. Lots of jokes about their bizarre false mustaches, wild clothing, strange mannerisms. I saw a production in San Francisco where this business was all eliminated. Lots of good comedy lost.

    L'Italiana in Algeri is a wild comedy, but it actually has a diversity of characters on both the Arab and Italian sides. The dictatorial, later henpecked Mustafa is a clown, his assistant Haly is a competent servant, his Arab wife Elvira is faithful and sympathetic. Among the Italians, Isabella is perky and gutsy, her fiance Lindoro is romantic, her frustrated suitor Taddeo is a coward and buffoon. The virtuoso music is colorful and matches the story perfectly. Any change in the script makes a hash of the opera.

    Finally, even thinking about metoo stuff in connection with this opera is stupid beyond belief. But that's the world of opera today.

    I agree about how great L’Italiana is, easily my favorite Rossini opera. The climax of the first act as Isabella is introduced to Mustafa and begins conning him only to be caught up short by the sight of her beloved Lindoro is amazing stuff.
    I’m less amused by the pappataci stuff but it gets to the real point of the opera which is not making fun of Ottomans (who are basically props to get the comedy moving) but to make fun of Italians while simultaneously giving them a shot of patriotic spirit (pensa alla patria).
    If anything you could make the argument that the Algerians are also representative of Italians, they have good qualities (Haly, Elvira) but are bogged down by ineffectual dysfunctional government which needs to be brought in line with the people (Italianized).
    But the modern SJW mindset can’t understand art – only propaganda and vulgar Marxist ranting.

  120. Anonymous[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @songbird

    and Iceland’s Celtic blood quantum is around 25%.
     
    Started off around 50%, based on ancient DNA. Slaves probably didn't have as many children.

    Apparently, it’s strictly female mediated.

    The Scandinavian DNA is predominantly male.

  121. @Steve Sailer
    TB Macaulay noted that the English hated the Scottish highlander barbarians while the highlanders were a military threat to raid England (up through 1745), but soon after crush the Highlander threat permanently soon after 1745, England developed a giant highlander fad, such as in the Ossian hoax and the novels of Scott.

    You can see much the same in Americans with Indians. Americans who had contact with Indians, such as Mark Twain, seldom liked them, but Americans back east like Cooper liked them.

    In 1683 Moslems nearly broke into the heart of Europe at the Siege of Vienna.

    Less than a century later Mozart wrote his sympathetic comedic opera Abduction from the Seraglio while standing on the exact same ground.

    Even the title shows the oddness of his identification. Obviously, to enter the Seraglio, one is abducted into it, but the title is “abduction from“, as though the Seraglio were the rightful owner of Konstanza and her fiance were the illegitimate interloper.

    Another example:

    In 1941 Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. In 1963 the Japanese song “Sukiyaki”, written about the composer’s frustration with the US occupation of Japan, tops the English language Hot 100 charts.

    Another example:

    In 2001, Moslem puritanists murder several thousand Americans in America. Immediately after, the US government doubles legal Moslem immigration to the US and adds “Islamophobia” to the register of prohibited thoughts, while the media warn that real danger is imminent anti-Moslem “backlash”, though it never quite goes through the formality of coming into existence.

  122. HA says:
    @Steve Sailer
    TB Macaulay noted that the English hated the Scottish highlander barbarians while the highlanders were a military threat to raid England (up through 1745), but soon after crush the Highlander threat permanently soon after 1745, England developed a giant highlander fad, such as in the Ossian hoax and the novels of Scott.

    You can see much the same in Americans with Indians. Americans who had contact with Indians, such as Mark Twain, seldom liked them, but Americans back east like Cooper liked them.

    > “soon after crush the Highlander threat permanently soon after 1745, England developed a giant highlander fad, …Americans who had contact with Indians, such as Mark Twain, seldom liked them, but Americans back east like Cooper liked them.”

    Don’t forget white nationalists like Asa Earl Carter, who went from segregationist KKK speechwriter for early George Wallace into a Dolezal-esque Native American guru. (He also wrote the book that would become the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales.)

    Croatian fascists felt the same way towards Bosnian Muslims once the Ottoman threat receded. They considered them “the bloom of the Croat nation”, and the word “Ustashe” originally referred to a Bosnian Muslim rebel uprising, and was adopted as a tribute to them. They even refurbished a pavillion in WWII in middle of Zagreb and turned it into a mosque. None of that Muslim fetishizing caught on with the largely Catholic locals, but they were were just another fringe party before the Nazis appointed them to rule the puppet state.

    All this gets memory-holed (along with the anomalously high ethnically Jewish membership in their upper ranks) because it doesn’t conform to the official line that the Ustashe were lapdogs of the Vatican, but why let facts get in the way of propaganda?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    All this gets memory-holed (along with the anomalously high ethnically Jewish membership in their upper ranks)
     
    In whose upper ranks?
  123. Anonymous[174] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA
    > "soon after crush the Highlander threat permanently soon after 1745, England developed a giant highlander fad, ...Americans who had contact with Indians, such as Mark Twain, seldom liked them, but Americans back east like Cooper liked them."

    Don't forget white nationalists like Asa Earl Carter, who went from segregationist KKK speechwriter for early George Wallace into a Dolezal-esque Native American guru. (He also wrote the book that would become the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales.)

    Croatian fascists felt the same way towards Bosnian Muslims once the Ottoman threat receded. They considered them "the bloom of the Croat nation", and the word "Ustashe" originally referred to a Bosnian Muslim rebel uprising, and was adopted as a tribute to them. They even refurbished a pavillion in WWII in middle of Zagreb and turned it into a mosque. None of that Muslim fetishizing caught on with the largely Catholic locals, but they were were just another fringe party before the Nazis appointed them to rule the puppet state.

    All this gets memory-holed (along with the anomalously high ethnically Jewish membership in their upper ranks) because it doesn't conform to the official line that the Ustashe were lapdogs of the Vatican, but why let facts get in the way of propaganda?

    All this gets memory-holed (along with the anomalously high ethnically Jewish membership in their upper ranks)

    In whose upper ranks?

  124. HA says:

    >in whose upper ranks?

    The Ustashe — who grew out of the Party of Rights branch known as the “Frankists” after the party leader Leo Frank, who was the spiritual heir of the founder of Croat nationalism. Frank’s daughter was married to the commander-in-chief of the Ustashe military (whose grandmother was also named Frank, but was from Germany). And Pavelich, the Croat puppet leader who named the Ustashe, was married to an Italian Jew or half-Jew.

    Mind you, these were all Catholic by religion (if of a somewhat anticlerical bent). Hannah Arendt called Leo Frank a “self-hating Jew” and given that she literally slept with a Nazi, she probably knew a thing or two about that. But as she noted in her book on the Eichmann trial, the Jewishness of these people (by Nazi logic, anyway) caused outrage when it was revealed to Hitler’s inner circle.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Is that why some fans held up an Israeli flag after Croatia scored its second goal against England in the World Cup?

    (By the way, is Pavelik not itself a Jewish surname?)
  125. Anonymous[417] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA
    >in whose upper ranks?

    The Ustashe -- who grew out of the Party of Rights branch known as the "Frankists" after the party leader Leo Frank, who was the spiritual heir of the founder of Croat nationalism. Frank's daughter was married to the commander-in-chief of the Ustashe military (whose grandmother was also named Frank, but was from Germany). And Pavelich, the Croat puppet leader who named the Ustashe, was married to an Italian Jew or half-Jew.

    Mind you, these were all Catholic by religion (if of a somewhat anticlerical bent). Hannah Arendt called Leo Frank a "self-hating Jew" and given that she literally slept with a Nazi, she probably knew a thing or two about that. But as she noted in her book on the Eichmann trial, the Jewishness of these people (by Nazi logic, anyway) caused outrage when it was revealed to Hitler's inner circle.

    Is that why some fans held up an Israeli flag after Croatia scored its second goal against England in the World Cup?

    (By the way, is Pavelik not itself a Jewish surname?)

    • Replies: @HA
    >Is that why some fans held up an Israeli flag after Croatia scored its second goal...

    I think Pavelic is a generically Christian name, and if he were Jewish, I suspect Arendt would have mentioned it.

    As for the flag, it’s true that the Ustashe issued thousands of “honorary Aryan” certificates to Jews (it was a good way of extracting military service and “philanthropy” on behalf of their puppet state), but any of the recipients who beat the overwhelming odds and eventually made it to Israel would have likely wanted to keep the Ustashe connection under wraps. I think it’s more likely the waver was an ex-Yugoslav Israeli with a soft spot for the former home team. There were obviously a number of Jews in Tito's Partisan/Communist forces. (There may also be some government collusion – in the last World Cup, the Croatian team was fined because a couple of their fans threw banana peels at some of the African players on the opposing team, somaybe this was some pre-emptive political correctness. During the breakup of Yugoslavia, Belgrade operatives tried to discredit Croatia by painting fascist symbols on a Jewish cemetery, so playing political hot potato with who’s-the-antisemite? is a game with some historical precedent.)

  126. @Buzz Mohawk
    Good to hear from you. My wife and I just got back from a week in Romania. The big news at our place there was the new enclosures constructed around the dumpsters to keep the gypsies out. They used to come every morning and pick through the garbage, leaving what they didn't want on the ground.

    Had not heard about it. Usually, they try to keep brown bears out, not brown people, but I am a cord-cutter and only follow national politics. Hope you liked it. The place is a lot better since a lot of the undesirables left, though a lot of the smarties left too 🙁 There was a piece of news in the main national newspaper on the Romanian math team for the International Olympiad which were held in Cluj recently – 4 out of 6 said they would be emigrating.

    Interestingly enough, Bashar Al-Assad’s son, Hafez, was on the Syrian team. He did not get any medals. They have been participating since 2009 as a country. No gold medals yet, but respectable showings. Someone like Steve should definitely crunch the numbers for some insights. https://www.imo-official.org/results_country.aspx

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    My wife earned her math degree at Cluj. Universitatea Babeș-Bolyai. I'm sure you've heard of it.

    We own an apartment in Romania and go there often to visit her family.

  127. @Romanian
    Had not heard about it. Usually, they try to keep brown bears out, not brown people, but I am a cord-cutter and only follow national politics. Hope you liked it. The place is a lot better since a lot of the undesirables left, though a lot of the smarties left too :( There was a piece of news in the main national newspaper on the Romanian math team for the International Olympiad which were held in Cluj recently - 4 out of 6 said they would be emigrating.

    Interestingly enough, Bashar Al-Assad's son, Hafez, was on the Syrian team. He did not get any medals. They have been participating since 2009 as a country. No gold medals yet, but respectable showings. Someone like Steve should definitely crunch the numbers for some insights. https://www.imo-official.org/results_country.aspx

    My wife earned her math degree at Cluj. Universitatea Babeș-Bolyai. I’m sure you’ve heard of it.

    We own an apartment in Romania and go there often to visit her family.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    Oh, that's nice. Sure, of course I've heard of it. It's pretty prestigious and is usually ranked as the best in the country by international rankings.

    Oh, so it's you Yanks who have been driving up the real estate prices and preventing affordable family formation :P I kid, I kid.

    And what's your outside view of where the country is headed? A lot of foreigners who visit occasionally give me the sort of positive feedback on the progress made that is hard to see when you live here day and day out.
  128. @peterike
    “They decided to change Mustafa’s status from an Ottoman bey to a kind of local gangster who smuggles electronics at the port of modern-day Algiers, because they “felt that his behavior shouldn’t be generalized as Muslim behavior.” …”

    Ummmm... A gangster electronics smuggler seems pretty darn Muslim to me.

    What they did was to remove the reference to the normality of rape slavery in Islam. He can be a bad guy, he can even be a stereotype, so long as he’s not representing that particular awful stereotype which is starting to affect European elections. This is a common trick, the semi-critical audience member is satiated by any negativity and might not realize they just whitewashed the main accusation in exchange for some meaningless cliche.

  129. HA says:
    @Anonymous
    Is that why some fans held up an Israeli flag after Croatia scored its second goal against England in the World Cup?

    (By the way, is Pavelik not itself a Jewish surname?)

    >Is that why some fans held up an Israeli flag after Croatia scored its second goal…

    I think Pavelic is a generically Christian name, and if he were Jewish, I suspect Arendt would have mentioned it.

    As for the flag, it’s true that the Ustashe issued thousands of “honorary Aryan” certificates to Jews (it was a good way of extracting military service and “philanthropy” on behalf of their puppet state), but any of the recipients who beat the overwhelming odds and eventually made it to Israel would have likely wanted to keep the Ustashe connection under wraps. I think it’s more likely the waver was an ex-Yugoslav Israeli with a soft spot for the former home team. There were obviously a number of Jews in Tito’s Partisan/Communist forces. (There may also be some government collusion – in the last World Cup, the Croatian team was fined because a couple of their fans threw banana peels at some of the African players on the opposing team, somaybe this was some pre-emptive political correctness. During the breakup of Yugoslavia, Belgrade operatives tried to discredit Croatia by painting fascist symbols on a Jewish cemetery, so playing political hot potato with who’s-the-antisemite? is a game with some historical precedent.)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Croats and other Eastern European Catholics probably associate anti-Semitism with Orthodoxy and so are inclined to be sentimental towards Jews.
  130. @Buzz Mohawk
    My wife earned her math degree at Cluj. Universitatea Babeș-Bolyai. I'm sure you've heard of it.

    We own an apartment in Romania and go there often to visit her family.

    Oh, that’s nice. Sure, of course I’ve heard of it. It’s pretty prestigious and is usually ranked as the best in the country by international rankings.

    Oh, so it’s you Yanks who have been driving up the real estate prices and preventing affordable family formation 😛 I kid, I kid.

    And what’s your outside view of where the country is headed? A lot of foreigners who visit occasionally give me the sort of positive feedback on the progress made that is hard to see when you live here day and day out.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    And what’s your outside view of where the country is headed?
     
    First the positive:

    In the seventeen years I've been going to Romania, I have observed,

    Immense increases in material comforts. More and better cars, an increased variety and abundance of groceries, consumer goods, etc.

    Individual home improvements. Romanians making capital investments in their houses and condominiums the way Americans do.

    Infrastructure projects. Improved roads, construction, etc. Fewer and fewer of the roads we drive between towns are pitted with craters like the Moon. They used to be.

    The survival of a spirit of freedom and free speech. Example: One time when we were there, the government was trying to shut down the TV station Antenna 3, but the broadcasters held on and are there to this day. I remember their anchorman walking with fellow protesters in the streets of Bucharest wearing a t-shirt that said something in Romanian like, "Antenă 3 Imposibil de Deteriorat" or "Antenă 3 Nu Poate fi Cumpărată." (I don't know much Romanian language, excuse me.)

    No immigration problem. Those "migrants/refugrees" don't want to come to Romania, and that is the silver lining in your cloud. You still have gypsies though, and always will; they will never assimilate; I despise them.

    Now the negative:

    Globalization. Those material comforts came with a loss of local and national business, just as imports and foreign investments have cost Americans jobs and productivity. The big grocery stores are mostly part of international chains from places like Germany and France. (I prefer the little ABC markets anyway, and I'm glad they are still there, the open air markets are fun too.). Gas stations and oil companies are of Russian and other foreign ownership, even though Romania is rich in oil. Many kinds of Romanian factories have been shut down and abandoned. I see lots of them.

    Unemployment. Related to globalization, of course. My brothers-in-law have college degrees but can only find blue collar work. One is an electrical engineer and is a construction laborer. The other has a business degree and drives a truck. At least they have jobs -- jobs that pay poorly. The engineer worked for a while in a Samsung television factory, but they treated him like a slave. He described the conditions, which I know are similar to what East Asian laborers endure to make our consumer goods.

    Corruption.Taking their word for it, my relatives there keep telling me nothing has changed. It seems like every time I'm there, another national leader is on trial for corruption, and it never stops. The US even protects this sometimes. My father-in-law explained to me how our American government prevented the Romanian government from kicking out and prosecuting on official who was carrying out the American agenda there. It made people very angry. I sense that the US is controlling a lot of what the Romanian government does. Your German Romanian president Klaus Iohannis seems to be very cozy with the Americans. He often vacations in Florida, where I think he owns a house. Your sovereignty is partly symbolic.

    General dirtiness. Sorry, but from my perspective, Romania is still comparatively dirty. I mean the streets, buildings, etc. The standards need to come up.

    Medical and dental care. This is a mixed bag. Sometimes good, sometimes pretty bad. I think there has been some improvement, but there needs to be more. People don't buy dental floss because it's too expensive. It's too expensive because nobody uses it, so there is no market; You have a lot of people losing their teeth in middle age and wearing dentures. As for surgery, my father-in-law had a hernia operation last year that was done the old-fashioned way, by cutting him open and having him live in a hospital for days. It failed so he had to go back in, get cut open again and live in the hospital for most of a week. I coincidentally had a hernia at about the same time, received laparoscopic mesh surgery and came home the same day with no pain, and I am as good as new.

    Conclusion: Romania is rich in natural resources and has many smart people. There is no reason it cannot become a prosperous country, if the people remain free and if they guard their political and economic sovereignty.
  131. @Romanian
    Oh, that's nice. Sure, of course I've heard of it. It's pretty prestigious and is usually ranked as the best in the country by international rankings.

    Oh, so it's you Yanks who have been driving up the real estate prices and preventing affordable family formation :P I kid, I kid.

    And what's your outside view of where the country is headed? A lot of foreigners who visit occasionally give me the sort of positive feedback on the progress made that is hard to see when you live here day and day out.

    And what’s your outside view of where the country is headed?

    First the positive:

    In the seventeen years I’ve been going to Romania, I have observed,

    Immense increases in material comforts. More and better cars, an increased variety and abundance of groceries, consumer goods, etc.

    Individual home improvements. Romanians making capital investments in their houses and condominiums the way Americans do.

    Infrastructure projects. Improved roads, construction, etc. Fewer and fewer of the roads we drive between towns are pitted with craters like the Moon. They used to be.

    The survival of a spirit of freedom and free speech. Example: One time when we were there, the government was trying to shut down the TV station Antenna 3, but the broadcasters held on and are there to this day. I remember their anchorman walking with fellow protesters in the streets of Bucharest wearing a t-shirt that said something in Romanian like, “Antenă 3 Imposibil de Deteriorat” or “Antenă 3 Nu Poate fi Cumpărată.” (I don’t know much Romanian language, excuse me.)

    No immigration problem. Those “migrants/refugrees” don’t want to come to Romania, and that is the silver lining in your cloud. You still have gypsies though, and always will; they will never assimilate; I despise them.

    Now the negative:

    Globalization. Those material comforts came with a loss of local and national business, just as imports and foreign investments have cost Americans jobs and productivity. The big grocery stores are mostly part of international chains from places like Germany and France. (I prefer the little ABC markets anyway, and I’m glad they are still there, the open air markets are fun too.). Gas stations and oil companies are of Russian and other foreign ownership, even though Romania is rich in oil. Many kinds of Romanian factories have been shut down and abandoned. I see lots of them.

    Unemployment. Related to globalization, of course. My brothers-in-law have college degrees but can only find blue collar work. One is an electrical engineer and is a construction laborer. The other has a business degree and drives a truck. At least they have jobs — jobs that pay poorly. The engineer worked for a while in a Samsung television factory, but they treated him like a slave. He described the conditions, which I know are similar to what East Asian laborers endure to make our consumer goods.

    Corruption.Taking their word for it, my relatives there keep telling me nothing has changed. It seems like every time I’m there, another national leader is on trial for corruption, and it never stops. The US even protects this sometimes. My father-in-law explained to me how our American government prevented the Romanian government from kicking out and prosecuting on official who was carrying out the American agenda there. It made people very angry. I sense that the US is controlling a lot of what the Romanian government does. Your German Romanian president Klaus Iohannis seems to be very cozy with the Americans. He often vacations in Florida, where I think he owns a house. Your sovereignty is partly symbolic.

    General dirtiness. Sorry, but from my perspective, Romania is still comparatively dirty. I mean the streets, buildings, etc. The standards need to come up.

    Medical and dental care. This is a mixed bag. Sometimes good, sometimes pretty bad. I think there has been some improvement, but there needs to be more. People don’t buy dental floss because it’s too expensive. It’s too expensive because nobody uses it, so there is no market; You have a lot of people losing their teeth in middle age and wearing dentures. As for surgery, my father-in-law had a hernia operation last year that was done the old-fashioned way, by cutting him open and having him live in a hospital for days. It failed so he had to go back in, get cut open again and live in the hospital for most of a week. I coincidentally had a hernia at about the same time, received laparoscopic mesh surgery and came home the same day with no pain, and I am as good as new.

    Conclusion: Romania is rich in natural resources and has many smart people. There is no reason it cannot become a prosperous country, if the people remain free and if they guard their political and economic sovereignty.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    Thanks for taking the time to type such a long reply. For some reason, the site does not notify me about replies to my comments so I check my user profile once in a while and see what comes up.

    Yeah, it definitely is a mixed bad. I am generally optimistic, but one thing is an unalloyed disaster - the emigration of a large portion of the population, comprising not just blue collars and gypsies, but also some of our elites. 4 out of 6 people in our National math team want to emigrate. Without the people, all else will fail and even positive trends will reverse.
  132. Anonymous[181] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Indeed, within living memory, Italian women had full personal experience of Magrehbi sexual aggression - the mass rapes/massacres perpetrated by Moroccan forces supposedly under French control, (surely the failure of the French officer corps to control/punish the rapists reveals a back story in itself..but I digress).

    Puts a whole new perspective on the sheer *STUPIDITY, COWARDICE, INCOMPETENCE and SELF-LOATHING* of the modern Italian state in not outright and explicitly forbidding massive Magrehbi immigration into Italy.

    God - How I would absolutely *HATE* to be born as an Italian.

    Nothing personal - I just *HATE* the shit who used to govern you.

    IIRC, the Italian communities living in Libya and Tunisia were also attacked by local Arabs in the disorders that accompanied the collapse of Italian rule there. Lots of rapes and murders.

  133. Anonymous[181] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA
    >Is that why some fans held up an Israeli flag after Croatia scored its second goal...

    I think Pavelic is a generically Christian name, and if he were Jewish, I suspect Arendt would have mentioned it.

    As for the flag, it’s true that the Ustashe issued thousands of “honorary Aryan” certificates to Jews (it was a good way of extracting military service and “philanthropy” on behalf of their puppet state), but any of the recipients who beat the overwhelming odds and eventually made it to Israel would have likely wanted to keep the Ustashe connection under wraps. I think it’s more likely the waver was an ex-Yugoslav Israeli with a soft spot for the former home team. There were obviously a number of Jews in Tito's Partisan/Communist forces. (There may also be some government collusion – in the last World Cup, the Croatian team was fined because a couple of their fans threw banana peels at some of the African players on the opposing team, somaybe this was some pre-emptive political correctness. During the breakup of Yugoslavia, Belgrade operatives tried to discredit Croatia by painting fascist symbols on a Jewish cemetery, so playing political hot potato with who’s-the-antisemite? is a game with some historical precedent.)

    Croats and other Eastern European Catholics probably associate anti-Semitism with Orthodoxy and so are inclined to be sentimental towards Jews.

  134. @Buzz Mohawk

    And what’s your outside view of where the country is headed?
     
    First the positive:

    In the seventeen years I've been going to Romania, I have observed,

    Immense increases in material comforts. More and better cars, an increased variety and abundance of groceries, consumer goods, etc.

    Individual home improvements. Romanians making capital investments in their houses and condominiums the way Americans do.

    Infrastructure projects. Improved roads, construction, etc. Fewer and fewer of the roads we drive between towns are pitted with craters like the Moon. They used to be.

    The survival of a spirit of freedom and free speech. Example: One time when we were there, the government was trying to shut down the TV station Antenna 3, but the broadcasters held on and are there to this day. I remember their anchorman walking with fellow protesters in the streets of Bucharest wearing a t-shirt that said something in Romanian like, "Antenă 3 Imposibil de Deteriorat" or "Antenă 3 Nu Poate fi Cumpărată." (I don't know much Romanian language, excuse me.)

    No immigration problem. Those "migrants/refugrees" don't want to come to Romania, and that is the silver lining in your cloud. You still have gypsies though, and always will; they will never assimilate; I despise them.

    Now the negative:

    Globalization. Those material comforts came with a loss of local and national business, just as imports and foreign investments have cost Americans jobs and productivity. The big grocery stores are mostly part of international chains from places like Germany and France. (I prefer the little ABC markets anyway, and I'm glad they are still there, the open air markets are fun too.). Gas stations and oil companies are of Russian and other foreign ownership, even though Romania is rich in oil. Many kinds of Romanian factories have been shut down and abandoned. I see lots of them.

    Unemployment. Related to globalization, of course. My brothers-in-law have college degrees but can only find blue collar work. One is an electrical engineer and is a construction laborer. The other has a business degree and drives a truck. At least they have jobs -- jobs that pay poorly. The engineer worked for a while in a Samsung television factory, but they treated him like a slave. He described the conditions, which I know are similar to what East Asian laborers endure to make our consumer goods.

    Corruption.Taking their word for it, my relatives there keep telling me nothing has changed. It seems like every time I'm there, another national leader is on trial for corruption, and it never stops. The US even protects this sometimes. My father-in-law explained to me how our American government prevented the Romanian government from kicking out and prosecuting on official who was carrying out the American agenda there. It made people very angry. I sense that the US is controlling a lot of what the Romanian government does. Your German Romanian president Klaus Iohannis seems to be very cozy with the Americans. He often vacations in Florida, where I think he owns a house. Your sovereignty is partly symbolic.

    General dirtiness. Sorry, but from my perspective, Romania is still comparatively dirty. I mean the streets, buildings, etc. The standards need to come up.

    Medical and dental care. This is a mixed bag. Sometimes good, sometimes pretty bad. I think there has been some improvement, but there needs to be more. People don't buy dental floss because it's too expensive. It's too expensive because nobody uses it, so there is no market; You have a lot of people losing their teeth in middle age and wearing dentures. As for surgery, my father-in-law had a hernia operation last year that was done the old-fashioned way, by cutting him open and having him live in a hospital for days. It failed so he had to go back in, get cut open again and live in the hospital for most of a week. I coincidentally had a hernia at about the same time, received laparoscopic mesh surgery and came home the same day with no pain, and I am as good as new.

    Conclusion: Romania is rich in natural resources and has many smart people. There is no reason it cannot become a prosperous country, if the people remain free and if they guard their political and economic sovereignty.

    Thanks for taking the time to type such a long reply. For some reason, the site does not notify me about replies to my comments so I check my user profile once in a while and see what comes up.

    Yeah, it definitely is a mixed bad. I am generally optimistic, but one thing is an unalloyed disaster – the emigration of a large portion of the population, comprising not just blue collars and gypsies, but also some of our elites. 4 out of 6 people in our National math team want to emigrate. Without the people, all else will fail and even positive trends will reverse.

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