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From The Atlantic:

Why Parents Make Flawed Choices About Their Kids’ Schooling

A new study shows that families act on insufficient information when it comes to figuring out where to enroll their children.

GAIL CORNWALL 11:00 AM ET EDUCATION

… A new working paper titled “Do Parents Value School Effectiveness?” suggests that parents similarly opt for schools with the most impressive graduates rather than figuring out which ones actually teach best. The study joins a body of research looking critically at what it means for a school to be successful.

Take the work of Erin Pahlke, for example. The assistant professor of psychology at Whitman College saw research showing that girls who attend school only with other girls tend to do better in math and science. The trick, she said, is that those studies didn’t analyze “differences in the students coming into the schools.” As it turns out, those who end up in same-sex schools tend to be wealthier, start out with more skills, and have parents who are more proactive than students who attend co-ed institutions. In a 2014 meta-analysis, Pahlke and her colleagues reviewed the studies and found when examining schools with the same type of students and same level of resources—rather than “comparing [those at] the public co-ed school to [their counterparts at] the fancy private school that’s single-sex down the road”—there isn’t any difference in how the students perform academically. Single-sex schooling also hasn’t been shown to offer a bump in girls’ attitudes toward math and science or change how they think about themselves. In other words, it often looks like single-sex schools are doing a better job educating kids, but they aren’t. It’s just that their graduates are people who were going to do well at any school. They’re running on high-octane gas.

So too are high schools widely thought to be “life-changing”—the elite ones that students must test into. In a 2014 Econometrica paper titled “The Elite Illusion,” the economists Atila Abdulkadiroğlu, Joshua Angrist, and Parag Pathak wrote that while students who attend extremely competitive public schools like Stuyvesant High School in New York City clearly excel, that may not mean the schools provide an education that’s superior to their less competitive counterparts. The researchers looked at a group of borderline kids, the last few eighth-graders who made the cut-off to go to an elite school and the first few who didn’t; that meant there was little if any academic difference between them when they started their freshman year. If a school like Stuyvesant were more effective—that is, taught more material and produced better outcomes—than the less competitive public school, the economists would expect to see a difference in how those kids performed academically four years later. But when the researchers analyzed indicators of success, such as AP exam scores and state standardized tests, they saw no difference between the borderline kids who got to attend Stuyvesant and the borderline ones who didn’t. And yet, said Pathak, a professor of microeconomics at MIT, “these are massively oversubscribed schools. People would give an arm and a leg to send their child to a school like Stuyvesant.”

On the other hand, there’s a Noah Baumbach movie from about 10 years ago in which all the other characters think Jack Black’s character is a complete idiot until he happens to mention he went to Stuyvesant, causing them to re-evaluate his intelligence upward.

Anyway, it’s been apparent since the 1966 Coleman Report that it is fairly difficult to find overwhelming evidence of any schools dramatically improving student performance. I’m not saying it hasn’t been done, just that the default is that the outputs of most schools correlate with the inputs in terms of student quality more than they correlate with inputs like budgets.

But, perhaps it is time for social science researchers to look for the mirror image situation: schools that do much worse than their inputs would suggest. If it’s hard to do much better, maybe we should focus more on not doing much worse?

And I’ve got a sizable candidate school system to study as an anti-role model of terrible performance: Puerto Rico’s public schools.

 
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  1. Romanian says: • Website
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  2. Puerto Rico’s schools are crummy because the students ain’t so smart and the school staff is just as dumb. All you people who invested in supposedly tax free Puerto Rican municipal bonds sent some portion of your money to the corrupt and bloated staffs at Puerto Rican schools. No bail out for you!

    Puerto Rico must be cut loose from the United States immediately.

    All Puerto Ricans in the United States, and especially in Illinois, must be repatriated back to the island. Luis Gutierrez can be made Head Puerto Rican In Chief of the Puerto Rican school system.

    PRexit is what our blog host came up with in 2015:

    Read More
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    We were put into Gutierrez’s district after the last census. Fortunately, he pretty much ignores us. I’d jump up and click my heels if he decamped to PR.
    , @jack ryan
    "Puerto Rico must be cut loose from the United States immediately."

    Ya gonna put all the Puerto Ricans here in our country in internment camps then deport them back to Puerto Rico?

    The enemy is inside our gates.

    The Harvey Weinstein, Jeff Zucker, Summer Redstone Media Mafia determines what is said and thought in our country.

    Ya got some plan to take down this media mafia?

    Let's see the plan.
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  3. Harold says:

    When I was young and foolish, and arrogant, I made the mistake of thinking that which university I attended didn’t matter much; that I could learn and produce as good work anywhere. This was true enough, but I came to learn that going to, say, Oxford would have been much better for networking, for meeting a better class of students and professors.

    Google was founded by people who met at MIT (I think). I had the same idea for the ‘pagerank’ algorithm they did, at about the same time. I don’t think this is an impressive feat, as the algorithm is something many people trained to think in a certain way should be able to come up with. If I was at MIT maybe I would have had a friend of similar ability, and other people around me that would have encouraged me to go into business with my ideas—as a naïve NZ farm boy, I didn’t even know what a VC was, a different milieu could have made a big difference.

    I don’t know if similar things apply to earlier schooling though.

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    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Brin and Page met at Stanford. Their backgrounds are very similar despite Brin being born in the Soviet Union. Both attended Montessori schools as children. Brin's parents and Page's mother are Jewish. Brin's parents were mathematicians, father a math professor at the University of Maryland and mother a NASA researcher. Page's father was a computer science professor at Michigan State University and his mother taught computer programming on the college level. Both men attended their state's college flagship, the University Michigan and the University of Maryland.

    In the US, most state flagships have honors colleges which are programs for students with the highest SAT scores. They often have separate classes, dormitories, and opportunities to socialize with one another.

    It is a parent's job to research the path(s) that their child might follow in life in order to reach their maximum potential. It should not be left for the child to figure out alone.

    , @Pericles
    Basically true, I would say. My experience agrees with yours a great deal.

    For earlier schooling, I get the impression that grouping ("streaming"?) children based on intellect or achievements is a good idea. I recently read that Sweden used to have that sort of school, and there were remnants of it when I attended, but it was for the most part deliberately destroyed by the Social-Democrat party in the 1960s. These days we're kind of dumb.
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  4. guest says:

    “the default is that the outputs of most schools correlate with the inputs in terms of student quality”

    As a book title once put it: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools.

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  5. My guess though is that that borderline student who gets into Stuyvesant has a better chance of getting into an elite university than the borderline student who doesn’t get in. Just as an otherwise undistinguished alum of a top tier university is going to have certain career advantages that a more successful student at a state school will have, at least quite often. So the parents are not being irrational; as long as magnet and other elite schools aren’t doing a markedly worse job of educating borderline students, it’s an easy call to pursue for them an equivalent education from a place that will open more doors.

    I’m taking the claim at face value that we really are talking about legitimately borderline students who aren’t a huge reach to be accepted into Stuyvesant, so there isn’t going to be some gross mismatch effect where a mediocre student who might have graduated from an average high school is instead doomed to flame out from a setting he has no chance to succeed in.

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    • Replies: @Travis
    i suspect a borderline student who did Not attend Stuyvesant may find it easier to get into a top 25 University. A friend of mine went to Stuyvesant and attended Rutgers, he scored above 1400 on his SAT back in 1986. His sister went to the local Public School in Queens and attended Yale despite having a lower SAT score but she finished near the top of her high school class while her brother was in the middle of the pack at Stuyvesant.

    My friend failed to finish in the top of his class at Stuyvesant , and those who did were accepted to Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia etc...Thus he was competing against his fellow Stuyvesant classmates to get into the top colleges. The top schools do not want to select 3 students from Stuyvesant...thus attending Stuyvesant probably hurt his opportunity of being accepted in a top 20 school. Would have been better for him to have finished in the top 10 of his High School and not attended Stuyvesant.
    , @Triumph104

    My guess though is that that borderline student who gets into Stuyvesant has a better chance of getting into an elite university than the borderline student who doesn’t get in.
     
    Dobbie & Fryer (2011) studied the benefit of attending an exam school for the marginal student admitted compared to those who just missed the cutoff.

    "Students just eligible for Brooklyn Tech are 2.3 percentage points less likely to graduate from a four year college. Students just eligible for Bronx Science are 0.7 percentage points less likely to graduate, and students just eligible for Stuyvesant are 1.6 percentage points less likely to graduate, though neither estimate is statistically significant."

    "Colleges with SAT scores above 1400 include the Ivies and schools like the University of Chicago and Washington University. Students eligible for Brooklyn Tech are 1.6 percentage points less likely to enroll in a school with a median SAT score of above 1300. There is no impact of Stuyvesant or Bronx Science eligibility in enrollment in a school with a median SAT score of above 1300, and none of the schools have an impact on enrollment in schools with SAT scores above 1200 or above 1400." (LINK)

    Just as an otherwise undistinguished alum of a top tier university is going to have certain career advantages that a more successful student at a state school will have,
     
    "... Krueger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, “moderately selective” school. It turned out that such students had, on average, the same income twenty years later as graduates of the elite colleges. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income “varied little, no matter which type of college they attended.” " (LINK)
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  6. I wonder if anyone has researched the effect of the other students on student achievement. It seems likely to me that a 130-IQ kid would be much better off with 130-IQ friends and 100-IQ teachers than 100-IQ friends and 130-IQ teachers. At least that’s the theory I followed with my kids. I sent them to a school for gifted kids that had a fairly ordinary range of teachers, and they seemed to thrive. Other parents would fuss about Mr. X who lets the kids goof off in his class, but I really didn’t care because my kids would come home and rave about their friends who could do Rubik’s Cube, or had an 1800 chess rating, or knew 200 digits of pi.

    I guess this is the basis for tracking kids, which most teachers secretly believe in but don’t like to admit, because someone has to teach the slow group.

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    • Replies: @Anon7
    I agree with your idea. There's a big difference between being the only IQ 130 kid in your class in a small rural school system, as opposed to sitting in a class full of IQ 130++ kids in a high school in a university town. My son's freshman college roommate was the bright rural kid; he almost dropped out in the first semester in spite of having a good GPA, he couldn't believe it was so competitive or that there were so many kids as smart or smarter than he was.

    Also, the bright kids usually have older brothers and sisters who have already played the college placement game and won, so they know all the strategies for improving ones college placement.
    , @Pericles

    I guess this is the basis for tracking kids, which most teachers secretly believe in but don’t like to admit, because someone has to teach the slow group.

     

    My impression is teachers and the education profession only care about the slow group.
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  7. Barnard says:

    What’s more, Pathak and his colleagues worry that, absent sufficient information for parents, choice-based education systems “penalize schools that enroll low-achievers rather than schools that offer poor instruction” and give school leaders a perverse incentive to focus on “making sure your school’s got the best kids” rather than improving school quality.

    Isn’t this what has been going on for decades? Parents don’t want their kids going to school with trouble makers and better teachers want to teach better behaved kids. Discipline standards have been gutted in most public schools, so if your children are in a classroom with disruptive students who aren’t removed, it will negatively impact their education. Most of what happens in schools is geared toward bringing low achievers up to grade level, while average to above average kids are ignored. I think that is key, if school districts are unwilling to restore discipline standards, parents need to do whatever they can to avoid having their children in schools with low achievers.

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    • Agree: NickG
    • Replies: @Rapparee
    We already know that schools rarely make a huge difference to students' academic performance. What researchers really need to study is whether attending certain schools can increase or decrease a student's odds of getting knocked up, hooked on drugs, or stabbed in the bathroom. Even a motivated, high-IQ student's life could get derailed by a felony conviction, brain injury, or bastard offspring. Objective data as to the likelihood of these outcomes would be immensely helpful to parents.

    From overhearing students' conversations on the bus, I suspect that starting around age twelve or thirteen, it's a really good idea to pull your kids from any school where most of the other students come from single-parent homes, if only for the sake of their sanity. With elementary school up to grade six, you're probably fine sending them anywhere.
    , @Forbes

    give school leaders a perverse incentive to focus on “making sure your school’s got the best kids” rather than improving school quality.
     
    I'd like to see their definition of school quality, and their measure of "improving."

    The article reeks of teacher union talking points.
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  8. Anonym says:

    You send a child to a good school as much for the connections as the subject matter and teaching ability. Does it stack up? I am not sure.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    The way people go off to college a thousand miles away and then get jobs away from the home town means that high school connections end at graduation unless one comes back home to work and live.
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  9. The crown jewel of the Buffalo Public School District is City Honors. There has much hand wringing because, in spite of every effort to increase black enrollment, the number of blacks admitted has fallen yearly. There is a proposal to start another City Honors with a less stringent enrollment criteria, but research shows that the next layer of applicants, who don’t quite meet the criteria for acceptance at CH, are more White and Asian students. This week’s lament, in the Warren Buffet owned Buffalo News, is there are not enough minority teachers. Oh, yawn. The teachers test for NYC has been set aside twice by Judge Kimba Woods because she said it was unfair to minorities. To what level should we reduce educational standards before the SJWs are happy? Andrew Cuomo is proud to point out the average spending, per student, in NY school districts is $19000. Student absenteeism in Buffalo schools is criminal, at 37% missing 35 days or more, that is seven weeks of school. Buffalo school teachers average more than 18 days absent per year, basically three weeks plus. Buffalo’s school budget approaches ONE BILLION DOLLARS per year. My son has my one grand daughter in a high end Catholic all girls HS outside of Cleveland. She is flourishing. His next two kids will attend prep or Catholic HS too. Sacrifice is what makes to help his kids excel. I am sorry the Catholic schools, other than the Prep schools are gone. There should be a RICO investigation into public schools countrywide. If you are interested< Google "The State of New York's Failing School Districts," from Cuomo's office for an eye opening look at failed school districts.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Our local Catholic high school had countless Protestant kids, 4 Jewish ones, and probably a few atheists and agnostics, because the public school was such a mess.

    Unfortunately, NY's Board of Regents has made the Education major (or at least some credits in the College of Education) required for all schools, which means the private and parochial schools are now staffed by people as poorly-trained as the public ones.
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  10. dearieme says:

    Top question, Mr iSteve. I offer you my own generalisation – there is no such thing as best practice but there’s a whole world of bad practice.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius

    there is no such thing as best practice
     
    Oh there is, but it's a talent not readily transferable. It would be akin to imagining that all writers could be brought up to the standard of Steve Sailer.
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  11. But, perhaps it is time for social science researchers to look for the mirror image situation: schools that do much worse than their inputs would suggest. If it’s hard to do much better, maybe we should focus more on not doing much worse?

    We should also look at finding individual students that could be doing better than they are and putting them in an environment matched to their actual skills.

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  12. But, perhaps it is time for social science researchers to look for the mirror image situation: schools that do much worse than their inputs would suggest.

    Love it, Steve. Invert, always invert!

    Read More
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  13. JimB says:

    The law of diminishing returns in education could be avoided if we had a test capable of predicting to a 95% confidence level the maximum academic proficiency a child was most likely to attain.

    Hm, anybody know what sort of test that might be?

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  14. Just as a blue-sky transhumanist speculation, suppose we had a technological means to turn dumb kids from dumb populations into smart kids, and it didn’t work on adults. How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children’s transformation into something they don’t understand or appreciate?

    Read More
    • Replies: @27 year old

    Just as a blue-sky transhumanist speculation, suppose we had a technological means to turn dumb kids from dumb populations into smart kids, and it didn’t work on adults. How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children’s transformation into something they don’t understand or appreciate?
     
    Not really sure what the point of this thought experiment is, we can observe what happens when smart kids are born in dumb families/communities. Parents at best aren't equipped or motivated to help their kids, at worst, they sabotage their own kids.
    , @International Jew
    It would look something like this:
    https://youtu.be/py37IFuKxYw
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children’s transformation into something they don’t understand or appreciate?
     
    In the same way you think about the existence of God.
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  15. MBlanc46 says:
    @Charles Pewitt
    Puerto Rico's schools are crummy because the students ain't so smart and the school staff is just as dumb. All you people who invested in supposedly tax free Puerto Rican municipal bonds sent some portion of your money to the corrupt and bloated staffs at Puerto Rican schools. No bail out for you!

    Puerto Rico must be cut loose from the United States immediately.

    All Puerto Ricans in the United States, and especially in Illinois, must be repatriated back to the island. Luis Gutierrez can be made Head Puerto Rican In Chief of the Puerto Rican school system.

    PRexit is what our blog host came up with in 2015:

    https://twitter.com/CharlesPewitt/status/615500716476624896

    We were put into Gutierrez’s district after the last census. Fortunately, he pretty much ignores us. I’d jump up and click my heels if he decamped to PR.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hodag
    He still lives in Bucktown? The demographics have changed a lot since the 80s and with the 606 his district's path to Little Village and Cicero is getting cut. We will see how much stroke he has during next redistricting. Oh, the joy of watching Louie having to move to Cicero! Maybe they will carve him into Melrose which is the nice Mexican suburb.
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  16. TG says:

    Indeed. But.

    Parents may not be as stupid as you think. It’s just that instead of selecting a school for its pedagogical excellence, they may be selecting schools based on class. That is, they want their kids to rub elbows with, and make friends with and develop contacts and social skills with and even maybe marry, other kids who come from wealth and power.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico
    Well, of course, but The Atlantic has an agenda, so God forbid that they acknowledge any good practical reason for parents to avoid placing their children in dysfunctional (often, disproportionately black and Hispanic) student bodies.
    , @Marty T
    In NYC kids who come from wealth and power go to private school, not Stuyvesant. But at least the Stuyvesant kids are smart.
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  17. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Yeah this parental involvement is certainly a mystery ain’t it Holmes? Why do these parents not care about edumacshun? You ask White parents to school and they join the PTA and look into curriculum and after school activities. Orientals will want all the information you can provide and then some. Hispanics won’t bother showing up, and black parents leave after they get a free lunch. Is it cultural? No. But that’s why they claim this is mysterious, Holmes. Its elementary really…

    Read More
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  18. Anyone remember when the pro football players went on strike a number of years ago? The owners brought in as scabs all the guys who were cut at the start of the season; those who just didn’t quite make the grade. Sorta like the two groups being compared here.

    Everyone laughed, thinking that the scabs’ play would be so inferior that fans would soon lose interest in flub ball. And for the first two weeks the performance was entertaining only for its ineptness. But then something happened. The teams jelled and the games got better. Really competitive in fact. No-one was laughing anymore. Least of all the players on strike.

    Funny, the strike ended soon after and the starting players came back to the gridiron. More than a few of the scabs found permanent positions on teams rosters.

    The lesson was that there really wasn’t that much difference between the “didn’t quite make the cut” guys and those who did.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon87
    There was a decent 30 for 30 documentary on this. It's implied losing to replacement player Redskins basically sealed Tom Landry's fate.
    , @guest
    There were grander experiments along those lines than scabs during the strike. The USFL, the XFL, European and Canadian leagues, and to an extent arena football. I'm not expert enough to know the exact difference between the athleticism and professionalism in these leagues versus the NFL. But they are relatively boring in my experience.
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  19. Parents making “wrong” choices? Only nerds and economists imagine that in selecting a school for our kid, our only criterion is maximizing his SAT score or his chance of getting into Harvard. What mattered the most to us, and what I conclude from friends, was cultural factors — the school’s general philosophy, the social background of the other students, etc. The same is true regardless of the parents’ politics.

    Those people who are gung-ho for centralized control of the schools, for imposing a single “scientifically” correct system top-down, fail to understand that education is part of child-rearing. And that for the “experts” to determine that parents are making “suboptimal” schooling choices, is as presumptuous as second-guessing how we transmit our religion, teach manners or set bedtimes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Hear, hear.

    We had a good mix of working class, middle class, and upper middle in my school growing up. It's hard to find a school like that today, but worth it. Our pathetically bad elite (sic) is so bad because they've sealed themselves off from the rest of their country. Don't make the same mistake.
    , @TG
    Kudos to "International Jew." Well said.
    , @Forbes
    Yeah, it's alleged wrong choices are made because families act on insufficient information. Apparently the sufficient information is withheld from parents by the experts (education administrators and teachers)--for how else could such an allegation be made, except that the sufficient information is held elsewhere?

    Surely there's a logical fallacy for such an inept argument...
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  20. @advancedatheist
    Just as a blue-sky transhumanist speculation, suppose we had a technological means to turn dumb kids from dumb populations into smart kids, and it didn't work on adults. How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children's transformation into something they don't understand or appreciate?

    Just as a blue-sky transhumanist speculation, suppose we had a technological means to turn dumb kids from dumb populations into smart kids, and it didn’t work on adults. How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children’s transformation into something they don’t understand or appreciate?

    Not really sure what the point of this thought experiment is, we can observe what happens when smart kids are born in dumb families/communities. Parents at best aren’t equipped or motivated to help their kids, at worst, they sabotage their own kids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon

    ...at worst, they sabotage their own kids.
     
    Had I the time and energy, I could write a novel-length explanation of this phenomenon from first-hand experience. It’s a brutal, terrifying, crucible for those kids, trust me. And we never really recover. It would be better, dare I say, for such a child to be born stupid.
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  21. In the comparison between the weakest students who got into Stuyvesant, and the strongest students who didn’t, I’m not surprised the researchers detected no positive “Stuyvesant effect”. In fact I’m a little surprised they didn’t find a negative effect. Because it must be discouraging to be the worst student in your class; I think most kids in that spot would say “the hell with school” and look for some other arena to excel in.

    And of course that’s assuming the researchers controlled for race/ethnicity, because otherwise the results are garbage as the worst students at Stuyvesant are affirmative action black kids, and the best rejected candidates are much smarter Chinese kids.

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    There is no affirmative action for admission to Stuyvesant. Students are admitted based on the results of one standardized exam. The school is 74% Asian and 1% black.

    http://schools.nyc.gov/OA/SchoolReports/2015-16/School_Quality_Snapshot_2016_HS_M475.pdf
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  22. @advancedatheist
    Just as a blue-sky transhumanist speculation, suppose we had a technological means to turn dumb kids from dumb populations into smart kids, and it didn't work on adults. How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children's transformation into something they don't understand or appreciate?

    It would look something like this:

    Read More
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  23. Speculation on why Puerto Rican schools suck, even taking into account student quality: language barrier.

    Mediocre to bad schools in the US still have the ability to use a wealth of English-language materials–textbooks, books on teaching, etc. I don’t know that there’s the same body of easily accessible stuff in Spanish. (Maybe there is, there are hundreds of millions of Spanish speakers, the normal amount of whom send their kids to schools.)

    Do Puerto Rican schools measure up to Latin American standards?

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    • Replies: @snorlax

    Do Puerto Rican schools measure up to Latin American standards?
     
    IIRC, no. Although they’ve significantly worsened over the years.
    , @advancedatheist
    Latin Americans don't have a reputation for voracious reading, except perhaps for Argentine porteños.

    But then a different mix of peoples settled in Argentina compared to Puerto Rico, many of them non-Iberian Europeans.
    , @NOTA
    The migration from PR to the mainland is selective--smarter, bolder, more ambitious, harder-working people migrate. That could easily have an impact on the quality of the students--the children of the parents who stayed behind are less smart, ambitious, etc. than the children whose parents took them to New York or Miami.
    , @Alden
    I'm sure the book publishers of Spain and Latin American Countries would be thrilled to make more money selling books and materials to Puerto Rico.

    Of course the funds might have been diverted to the bank accounts of the school administrators.
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  24. Hodag says:
    @MBlanc46
    We were put into Gutierrez’s district after the last census. Fortunately, he pretty much ignores us. I’d jump up and click my heels if he decamped to PR.

    He still lives in Bucktown? The demographics have changed a lot since the 80s and with the 606 his district’s path to Little Village and Cicero is getting cut. We will see how much stroke he has during next redistricting. Oh, the joy of watching Louie having to move to Cicero! Maybe they will carve him into Melrose which is the nice Mexican suburb.

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    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    We’re way out in Westchester. It’s a very gerrymandered district.
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  25. CCZ says:

    “How Do We Keep Schools From Screwing Up?” Answer: Name the schools after Barack Hussein Obama:

    An elementary school in Jackson, Mississippi, will be renamed after President Barack Obama instead of its original namesake, Confederate President Jefferson Davis, leaders announced Tuesday.

    “Jefferson Davis, although infamous in his own right, would probably not be too happy about a diverse school promoting the education of the very individuals he fought to keep enslaved being named after him,” Janelle Jefferson told the outlet, which also noted that 98 percent of the students who attended the school this year are black. [[**note the 98% diversity]]

    Janelle Jefferson said the community wanted to rename the school “to reflect a person who fully represents ideals and public stances consistent with what we want our children to believe about themselves.”

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    • Replies: @Alden
    I saw the article and wondered if it were an all black school. There's nothing wrong with naming a black school for an infamous black man. Think of all the Booker T Washington schools. Problem is, in 20 years that school might well be all hispanic or all asian. So it will have to be named all over again.
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  26. Johnny789 says:

    Better schools have better parents. They’re always trying to fix K-12 education at the wrong end.

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  27. Travis says:
    @Patrick Sullivan
    My guess though is that that borderline student who gets into Stuyvesant has a better chance of getting into an elite university than the borderline student who doesn't get in. Just as an otherwise undistinguished alum of a top tier university is going to have certain career advantages that a more successful student at a state school will have, at least quite often. So the parents are not being irrational; as long as magnet and other elite schools aren't doing a markedly worse job of educating borderline students, it's an easy call to pursue for them an equivalent education from a place that will open more doors.

    I'm taking the claim at face value that we really are talking about legitimately borderline students who aren't a huge reach to be accepted into Stuyvesant, so there isn't going to be some gross mismatch effect where a mediocre student who might have graduated from an average high school is instead doomed to flame out from a setting he has no chance to succeed in.

    i suspect a borderline student who did Not attend Stuyvesant may find it easier to get into a top 25 University. A friend of mine went to Stuyvesant and attended Rutgers, he scored above 1400 on his SAT back in 1986. His sister went to the local Public School in Queens and attended Yale despite having a lower SAT score but she finished near the top of her high school class while her brother was in the middle of the pack at Stuyvesant.

    My friend failed to finish in the top of his class at Stuyvesant , and those who did were accepted to Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia etc…Thus he was competing against his fellow Stuyvesant classmates to get into the top colleges. The top schools do not want to select 3 students from Stuyvesant…thus attending Stuyvesant probably hurt his opportunity of being accepted in a top 20 school. Would have been better for him to have finished in the top 10 of his High School and not attended Stuyvesant.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    What % of kids who didn't quite get into Stuyvesant went to a nice upscale private prep school instead?
    , @Alden
    An admissions director at a very small Christian high school explained to me that the smaller the high school, the better chance kids have of getting into a top college. The big high schools with say 1,500 kids in the senior class send dozens, even hundreds of applications to top colleges.

    But a small Christian high school with only about 60 seniors sends few applications and the kids from a small school have a better chance. Seems like a good theory, I don't know if it's really true.

    But the major thing on college applications now days is the poor poor pitiful me essay.

    "What was your greatest struggle and how did you over come it"? "

    "I was born a crack baby and mom's pimp killed her in front of me and I grew up in foster homes and was raped by White male social workers and was homeless for a while and am part black and part Uzbek and I have been discriminated against and abused all my life. After years of discrimination I am finally transitioning from the sex to which "I was assigned at birth" by an evil White male Christian Dr. But all 4 of my grandparents and both parents went to Liberal Propaganda University and the family can afford to pay $70,000 a year tuition and dorm fees plus massive donations and gifts"

    The thing is to be au courant with the latest PC c**p. Transgender is the new black on college admissions. Really, why bother studying? Just check the magic black and transgender boxes and you're in!!

    That's the key to college admissions now days. They will even accept Whites with outstanding SAT and GPAs if the sob story is politically correct enough.
    , @keuril

    i suspect a borderline student who did Not attend Stuyvesant may find it easier to get into a top 25 University... sister went to the local Public School in Queens and attended Yale despite having a lower SAT score but she finished near the top of her high school class
     
    “Top 25” and “Yale” are two separate groups, even though “Yale” belongs to both. I think being a borderline student at Stuyvesant will improve one’s chances at getting into a Top 25 school, but it will be considerably more difficult to get into a Top 4 school (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford—HYPS), simply because each school will have a limit (usually in the high single digits or low double digits) on admits from a given high school, regardless of how selective the high school is.

    This applies not only to elite public high schools like Stuyvesant, but also to elite boarding schools like Exeter and Andover. For this reason, Exeter’s policy is that any student admitted Early Action (i.e., non-binding) to a college with an admit rate under 10% (this would apply only to HYPS, Chicago, MIT, and CalTech) will not be allowed to apply to any other colleges during the Regular Decision period. This policy—a top-down-enforced embodiment of the school’s “non sibi” (not for oneself) motto—ensures that the very top students, who might be admitted Early Action in December to, say, Harvard, are not allowed to showboat by applying to all the other Ivies during Regular Decision (results out at end of March). Doing so would lessen the chances of admission of other extremely worthy Exeter applicants to those other Ivies.

    But once you get beyond HYPS, there are not many colleges who will deny an applicant because too many other applicants from the same high school have been accepted. And at the lower end of the Top 25, they probably like the cachet of Stuyvesant and Exeter grads, so coming out of those schools is probably a net positive.

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  28. snorlax says:
    @Discordiax
    Speculation on why Puerto Rican schools suck, even taking into account student quality: language barrier.

    Mediocre to bad schools in the US still have the ability to use a wealth of English-language materials--textbooks, books on teaching, etc. I don't know that there's the same body of easily accessible stuff in Spanish. (Maybe there is, there are hundreds of millions of Spanish speakers, the normal amount of whom send their kids to schools.)

    Do Puerto Rican schools measure up to Latin American standards?

    Do Puerto Rican schools measure up to Latin American standards?

    IIRC, no. Although they’ve significantly worsened over the years.

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  29. On a related topic, John McWhorter of the Daily Beast hoists our elite media with its own subjective petard in his clever article ‘Antiracism, Our Flawed New Religion’ in the Daily Beast.

    “It is inherent to a religion that one is to accept certain suspensions of disbelief. Certain questions are not to be asked, or if asked, only politely—and the answer one gets, despite being somewhat half-cocked, is to be accepted as doing the job.” …

    “For example, one is not to ask “Why are black people so upset about one white cop killing a black man when black men are at much more danger of being killed by one another?” Or, one might ask this, very politely—upon which the answers are flabby but further questions are unwelcome. A common answer is that black communities do protest black-on-black violence —but anyone knows that the outrage against white cops is much, much vaster.”

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion

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  30. @dearieme
    Top question, Mr iSteve. I offer you my own generalisation - there is no such thing as best practice but there's a whole world of bad practice.

    there is no such thing as best practice

    Oh there is, but it’s a talent not readily transferable. It would be akin to imagining that all writers could be brought up to the standard of Steve Sailer.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    How could there possibly be a best practice that is independent of the people involved? That is taking American ideas of mass society - of everyone being interchangeable - too far.
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  31. @International Jew
    Parents making "wrong" choices? Only nerds and economists imagine that in selecting a school for our kid, our only criterion is maximizing his SAT score or his chance of getting into Harvard. What mattered the most to us, and what I conclude from friends, was cultural factors — the school's general philosophy, the social background of the other students, etc. The same is true regardless of the parents' politics.

    Those people who are gung-ho for centralized control of the schools, for imposing a single "scientifically" correct system top-down, fail to understand that education is part of child-rearing. And that for the "experts" to determine that parents are making "suboptimal" schooling choices, is as presumptuous as second-guessing how we transmit our religion, teach manners or set bedtimes.

    Hear, hear.

    We had a good mix of working class, middle class, and upper middle in my school growing up. It’s hard to find a school like that today, but worth it. Our pathetically bad elite (sic) is so bad because they’ve sealed themselves off from the rest of their country. Don’t make the same mistake.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Who are those pathetically bad elites?
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  32. Janelle doesn’t know what “infamous” means. She thinks it means “famous”.

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  33. @Discordiax
    Speculation on why Puerto Rican schools suck, even taking into account student quality: language barrier.

    Mediocre to bad schools in the US still have the ability to use a wealth of English-language materials--textbooks, books on teaching, etc. I don't know that there's the same body of easily accessible stuff in Spanish. (Maybe there is, there are hundreds of millions of Spanish speakers, the normal amount of whom send their kids to schools.)

    Do Puerto Rican schools measure up to Latin American standards?

    Latin Americans don’t have a reputation for voracious reading, except perhaps for Argentine porteños.

    But then a different mix of peoples settled in Argentina compared to Puerto Rico, many of them non-Iberian Europeans.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Tyler Cowen, who travels a lot, said he has never seen a Brazilian reading a book at the airport.
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  34. TG says:
    @International Jew
    Parents making "wrong" choices? Only nerds and economists imagine that in selecting a school for our kid, our only criterion is maximizing his SAT score or his chance of getting into Harvard. What mattered the most to us, and what I conclude from friends, was cultural factors — the school's general philosophy, the social background of the other students, etc. The same is true regardless of the parents' politics.

    Those people who are gung-ho for centralized control of the schools, for imposing a single "scientifically" correct system top-down, fail to understand that education is part of child-rearing. And that for the "experts" to determine that parents are making "suboptimal" schooling choices, is as presumptuous as second-guessing how we transmit our religion, teach manners or set bedtimes.

    Kudos to “International Jew.” Well said.

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  35. Alice says:

    Elementary and middle Schools have abandoned phonics, grammar, rhetoric, spelling, handwriting, expository writing, arithmetic, pre-algebra, and mastery of any content knowledge (times tables, lists of states and capitals, dates and events etc.) The three Rs are not taught.

    I know this sounds absurd, but it’s true. but even gifted and talented programs at schools give assignments such as “make a movie poster, make a mobile, make a YouTube rap” etc.

    Because there’s no content taught, all kids are poorly served. The parents who know to after-school their kids are the ones who succeed despite the knowledge loss. They buoy up tests scores in some places. But increasingly, even the white kids in high income places are incapable of performing well on the incredibly shallow standardized tests.

    The reason schools don’t stop doing badly is because they are just soft versions of SJWs for the third generation of teachers now, and the teachers have no content knowledge themselves. They don’t know phonics it spelling or grammar or arithmetic.

    It can’t be stopped now because there isn’t enough knowledge left in the system.

    Read about Edina MN public schools and their tanking.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/10/how-leftism-can-ruin-a-once-proud-school-district.php

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  36. @Patrick Sullivan
    My guess though is that that borderline student who gets into Stuyvesant has a better chance of getting into an elite university than the borderline student who doesn't get in. Just as an otherwise undistinguished alum of a top tier university is going to have certain career advantages that a more successful student at a state school will have, at least quite often. So the parents are not being irrational; as long as magnet and other elite schools aren't doing a markedly worse job of educating borderline students, it's an easy call to pursue for them an equivalent education from a place that will open more doors.

    I'm taking the claim at face value that we really are talking about legitimately borderline students who aren't a huge reach to be accepted into Stuyvesant, so there isn't going to be some gross mismatch effect where a mediocre student who might have graduated from an average high school is instead doomed to flame out from a setting he has no chance to succeed in.

    My guess though is that that borderline student who gets into Stuyvesant has a better chance of getting into an elite university than the borderline student who doesn’t get in.

    Dobbie & Fryer (2011) studied the benefit of attending an exam school for the marginal student admitted compared to those who just missed the cutoff.

    “Students just eligible for Brooklyn Tech are 2.3 percentage points less likely to graduate from a four year college. Students just eligible for Bronx Science are 0.7 percentage points less likely to graduate, and students just eligible for Stuyvesant are 1.6 percentage points less likely to graduate, though neither estimate is statistically significant.”

    “Colleges with SAT scores above 1400 include the Ivies and schools like the University of Chicago and Washington University. Students eligible for Brooklyn Tech are 1.6 percentage points less likely to enroll in a school with a median SAT score of above 1300. There is no impact of Stuyvesant or Bronx Science eligibility in enrollment in a school with a median SAT score of above 1300, and none of the schools have an impact on enrollment in schools with SAT scores above 1200 or above 1400.” (LINK)

    Just as an otherwise undistinguished alum of a top tier university is going to have certain career advantages that a more successful student at a state school will have,

    “… Krueger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, “moderately selective” school. It turned out that such students had, on average, the same income twenty years later as graduates of the elite colleges. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income “varied little, no matter which type of college they attended.” ” (LINK)

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  37. Remember, too, that at Stuyvesant, the cheating is rampant and the admissions test is not a purely meritocratic test, but one that rewards kids for being really good at one subject but NOT really good at both, which strongly favors Asian immigrants.

    Also, it’s pretty clear white New York kids are abandoning the top schools, last I checked.

    So no, not surprising.

    And I pointed this out a year or so ago here

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Abandoning top public high schools for private schools you mean? I can't imagine why anyone with money for private school would ever, ever send their kids to a public school.
    , @Alden
    74 percent Asian, what does one expect? There was a big scandal at Santa Monica college. Asians would hire another Asian to take classes for them. Finally a calculus teacher noticed that the same Asian boy took the class 7 times under different names.
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  38. Anon87 says:
    @ThreeCranes
    Anyone remember when the pro football players went on strike a number of years ago? The owners brought in as scabs all the guys who were cut at the start of the season; those who just didn't quite make the grade. Sorta like the two groups being compared here.

    Everyone laughed, thinking that the scabs' play would be so inferior that fans would soon lose interest in flub ball. And for the first two weeks the performance was entertaining only for its ineptness. But then something happened. The teams jelled and the games got better. Really competitive in fact. No-one was laughing anymore. Least of all the players on strike.

    Funny, the strike ended soon after and the starting players came back to the gridiron. More than a few of the scabs found permanent positions on teams rosters.

    The lesson was that there really wasn't that much difference between the "didn't quite make the cut" guys and those who did.

    There was a decent 30 for 30 documentary on this. It’s implied losing to replacement player Redskins basically sealed Tom Landry’s fate.

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  39. Ivy says:

    There are many aspects of education, including the familiar ones tested and some that have manifested in other ways. Consider a 19th century perspective, how Flaubert addressed a slight variation of education, including a broader sense of formation, in his works. Or how Goethe wrote about that topic.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimental_Education

    (Compare and contrast with Madame Bovary, somehow topical these days)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther

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    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Montaigne's thoughts on education are among the highlights of the Essays.
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  40. MBlanc46 says:
    @Hodag
    He still lives in Bucktown? The demographics have changed a lot since the 80s and with the 606 his district's path to Little Village and Cicero is getting cut. We will see how much stroke he has during next redistricting. Oh, the joy of watching Louie having to move to Cicero! Maybe they will carve him into Melrose which is the nice Mexican suburb.

    We’re way out in Westchester. It’s a very gerrymandered district.

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  41. Alden says:
    @Anonym
    You send a child to a good school as much for the connections as the subject matter and teaching ability. Does it stack up? I am not sure.

    The way people go off to college a thousand miles away and then get jobs away from the home town means that high school connections end at graduation unless one comes back home to work and live.

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    • Replies: @StillCARealist
    Aren't these kids from NYC? The odds of coming back to that home town are pretty good.
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  42. Alden says:
    @education realist
    Remember, too, that at Stuyvesant, the cheating is rampant and the admissions test is not a purely meritocratic test, but one that rewards kids for being really good at one subject but NOT really good at both, which strongly favors Asian immigrants.

    Also, it's pretty clear white New York kids are abandoning the top schools, last I checked.

    So no, not surprising.

    And I pointed this out a year or so ago here

    Abandoning top public high schools for private schools you mean? I can’t imagine why anyone with money for private school would ever, ever send their kids to a public school.

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  43. Alden says:
    @Desiderius
    Hear, hear.

    We had a good mix of working class, middle class, and upper middle in my school growing up. It's hard to find a school like that today, but worth it. Our pathetically bad elite (sic) is so bad because they've sealed themselves off from the rest of their country. Don't make the same mistake.

    Who are those pathetically bad elites?

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  44. Alden says:
    @CCZ
    "How Do We Keep Schools From Screwing Up?" Answer: Name the schools after Barack Hussein Obama:

    An elementary school in Jackson, Mississippi, will be renamed after President Barack Obama instead of its original namesake, Confederate President Jefferson Davis, leaders announced Tuesday.

    “Jefferson Davis, although infamous in his own right, would probably not be too happy about a diverse school promoting the education of the very individuals he fought to keep enslaved being named after him,” Janelle Jefferson told the outlet, which also noted that 98 percent of the students who attended the school this year are black. [[**note the 98% diversity]]

    Janelle Jefferson said the community wanted to rename the school “to reflect a person who fully represents ideals and public stances consistent with what we want our children to believe about themselves.”
     

    I saw the article and wondered if it were an all black school. There’s nothing wrong with naming a black school for an infamous black man. Think of all the Booker T Washington schools. Problem is, in 20 years that school might well be all hispanic or all asian. So it will have to be named all over again.

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  45. @International Jew
    In the comparison between the weakest students who got into Stuyvesant, and the strongest students who didn't, I'm not surprised the researchers detected no positive "Stuyvesant effect". In fact I'm a little surprised they didn't find a negative effect. Because it must be discouraging to be the worst student in your class; I think most kids in that spot would say "the hell with school" and look for some other arena to excel in.

    And of course that's assuming the researchers controlled for race/ethnicity, because otherwise the results are garbage as the worst students at Stuyvesant are affirmative action black kids, and the best rejected candidates are much smarter Chinese kids.

    There is no affirmative action for admission to Stuyvesant. Students are admitted based on the results of one standardized exam. The school is 74% Asian and 1% black.

    http://schools.nyc.gov/OA/SchoolReports/2015-16/School_Quality_Snapshot_2016_HS_M475.pdf

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    • Replies: @Alden
    How does the school get away with that? Do ADL SPLC NAACP AJC ACLU etc know this?
    , @International Jew
    Heh, so it is. I withdraw my second paragraph.

    How did Stuyvesant escape affirmative action??
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  46. @Ivy
    There are many aspects of education, including the familiar ones tested and some that have manifested in other ways. Consider a 19th century perspective, how Flaubert addressed a slight variation of education, including a broader sense of formation, in his works. Or how Goethe wrote about that topic.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimental_Education

    (Compare and contrast with Madame Bovary, somehow topical these days)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther

    Montaigne’s thoughts on education are among the highlights of the Essays.

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    Indeed a man ahead of his time, that subsequent generations (and I hope there are many) should cherish. Such beacons as Montaigne are slightly unfashionable for now, but their messages resonate.
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  47. Alden says:

    “Why Parents Make Flawed Choices About Their Kids’ Schooling”

    Stupid article. The overwhelming majority of American kids go to the local public school to which they are assigned by the school district. If parents want school choice, send them to private and religious schools. Or if you don’t have $20,000 a year per kid let the lowest earning parent take off work and home school them. Or get a 3 to 11 shift and home school them in the morning.

    Public and private schools load the kids with so much homework and school projects that many parents and kids spend the entire evening and late afternoon doing what the teachers should have done during the day. So if when your eldest starts 6 grade and you find yourself doing hours and hours of homework and those stupid stupid school projects every evening when you want to clean house and wash the car and maybe, maybe, just relax, then home school them. The stupid homework burden means the parents probably spend as much time with homework as the teachers do in school. Home schooling means teaching and homework both get done in about 4 hours in the morning instead of 6 hours at school and 2 hours of homework and those ridiculous projects cluttering up the house.

    AS long as the behavior of the other kids is civilized and you don’t have a bunch of black animals screeching and hollering all day , I don’t think it matters what the school is or who the teacher is.

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  48. Alden says:
    @Triumph104
    There is no affirmative action for admission to Stuyvesant. Students are admitted based on the results of one standardized exam. The school is 74% Asian and 1% black.

    http://schools.nyc.gov/OA/SchoolReports/2015-16/School_Quality_Snapshot_2016_HS_M475.pdf

    How does the school get away with that? Do ADL SPLC NAACP AJC ACLU etc know this?

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  49. Alden says:
    @education realist
    Remember, too, that at Stuyvesant, the cheating is rampant and the admissions test is not a purely meritocratic test, but one that rewards kids for being really good at one subject but NOT really good at both, which strongly favors Asian immigrants.

    Also, it's pretty clear white New York kids are abandoning the top schools, last I checked.

    So no, not surprising.

    And I pointed this out a year or so ago here

    74 percent Asian, what does one expect? There was a big scandal at Santa Monica college. Asians would hire another Asian to take classes for them. Finally a calculus teacher noticed that the same Asian boy took the class 7 times under different names.

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  50. @27 year old

    Just as a blue-sky transhumanist speculation, suppose we had a technological means to turn dumb kids from dumb populations into smart kids, and it didn’t work on adults. How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children’s transformation into something they don’t understand or appreciate?
     
    Not really sure what the point of this thought experiment is, we can observe what happens when smart kids are born in dumb families/communities. Parents at best aren't equipped or motivated to help their kids, at worst, they sabotage their own kids.

    …at worst, they sabotage their own kids.

    Had I the time and energy, I could write a novel-length explanation of this phenomenon from first-hand experience. It’s a brutal, terrifying, crucible for those kids, trust me. And we never really recover. It would be better, dare I say, for such a child to be born stupid.

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  51. Anon7 says:
    @Faraday's Bobcat
    I wonder if anyone has researched the effect of the other students on student achievement. It seems likely to me that a 130-IQ kid would be much better off with 130-IQ friends and 100-IQ teachers than 100-IQ friends and 130-IQ teachers. At least that's the theory I followed with my kids. I sent them to a school for gifted kids that had a fairly ordinary range of teachers, and they seemed to thrive. Other parents would fuss about Mr. X who lets the kids goof off in his class, but I really didn't care because my kids would come home and rave about their friends who could do Rubik's Cube, or had an 1800 chess rating, or knew 200 digits of pi.

    I guess this is the basis for tracking kids, which most teachers secretly believe in but don't like to admit, because someone has to teach the slow group.

    I agree with your idea. There’s a big difference between being the only IQ 130 kid in your class in a small rural school system, as opposed to sitting in a class full of IQ 130++ kids in a high school in a university town. My son’s freshman college roommate was the bright rural kid; he almost dropped out in the first semester in spite of having a good GPA, he couldn’t believe it was so competitive or that there were so many kids as smart or smarter than he was.

    Also, the bright kids usually have older brothers and sisters who have already played the college placement game and won, so they know all the strategies for improving ones college placement.

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  52. @Harold
    When I was young and foolish, and arrogant, I made the mistake of thinking that which university I attended didn’t matter much; that I could learn and produce as good work anywhere. This was true enough, but I came to learn that going to, say, Oxford would have been much better for networking, for meeting a better class of students and professors.

    Google was founded by people who met at MIT (I think). I had the same idea for the ‘pagerank’ algorithm they did, at about the same time. I don’t think this is an impressive feat, as the algorithm is something many people trained to think in a certain way should be able to come up with. If I was at MIT maybe I would have had a friend of similar ability, and other people around me that would have encouraged me to go into business with my ideas—as a naïve NZ farm boy, I didn’t even know what a VC was, a different milieu could have made a big difference.

    I don’t know if similar things apply to earlier schooling though.

    Brin and Page met at Stanford. Their backgrounds are very similar despite Brin being born in the Soviet Union. Both attended Montessori schools as children. Brin’s parents and Page’s mother are Jewish. Brin’s parents were mathematicians, father a math professor at the University of Maryland and mother a NASA researcher. Page’s father was a computer science professor at Michigan State University and his mother taught computer programming on the college level. Both men attended their state’s college flagship, the University Michigan and the University of Maryland.

    In the US, most state flagships have honors colleges which are programs for students with the highest SAT scores. They often have separate classes, dormitories, and opportunities to socialize with one another.

    It is a parent’s job to research the path(s) that their child might follow in life in order to reach their maximum potential. It should not be left for the child to figure out alone.

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  53. @Triumph104
    There is no affirmative action for admission to Stuyvesant. Students are admitted based on the results of one standardized exam. The school is 74% Asian and 1% black.

    http://schools.nyc.gov/OA/SchoolReports/2015-16/School_Quality_Snapshot_2016_HS_M475.pdf

    Heh, so it is. I withdraw my second paragraph.

    How did Stuyvesant escape affirmative action??

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    From what I understand, a group of parents and alumni went to the state legislature and had the one exam requirement for admission written into state law in 1972. At the time there was a push by advocates and New City officials to make admissions more holistic.

    http://thediariesofalawstudent.blogspot.com/2012/02/the-diminishing-number-of-black.html
    , @Forbes
    The affirmative action came in the form of seven other test-admission high schools to compete with Stuyvesant for students. Back in the day--the '60s/'70s--when Stuyvesant's reputation was already top notch (by Ivy admissions), Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech academics were similarly acclaimed. Though, there can only be one top-dog. As for AA results today, the eight high schools are roughly one-half Asian, one-third white, with blacks, Hispanics at single digit percentages.
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  54. Ivy says:
    @Desiderius
    Montaigne's thoughts on education are among the highlights of the Essays.

    Indeed a man ahead of his time, that subsequent generations (and I hope there are many) should cherish. Such beacons as Montaigne are slightly unfashionable for now, but their messages resonate.

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  55. Rod1963 says:

    Parents do recognize that there are other equally important elements in choosing a school than just learning opportunities.

    Namely the sorts of kids your child will be going to school with for obvious reasons. In general kids aren’t socialized by their parents(who are often working full time and barely interact with their kids outside of organized sports) but by the state via the children and teachers they associate with.

    Some parents just forgo trying to find the right private or parochial school especially if they don’t have the sort of serious cash flow that such schools require and just opt out and home school them.

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  56. @International Jew
    Heh, so it is. I withdraw my second paragraph.

    How did Stuyvesant escape affirmative action??

    From what I understand, a group of parents and alumni went to the state legislature and had the one exam requirement for admission written into state law in 1972. At the time there was a push by advocates and New City officials to make admissions more holistic.

    http://thediariesofalawstudent.blogspot.com/2012/02/the-diminishing-number-of-black.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ed
    I think people forget that the diversity push & lowering standards to achieve it aren't new. Stuyvesant by the 70s had already been the premier city HS for decades. Stuyvesant parents probably saw what was happening to City College, where the erosion of entrance standards resulted in institutional degregadation. The Stuy parents probably knew instinctively that they needed a state law to protect against liberal city leaders that would one day do the same to Stuyvesant as was done to City College.

    It was a prescient piece of foresight on their part because 45 years later liberals are still gunning for the school.
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  57. anon says: • Disclaimer

    I thought Malcomb Gladwell proved, as only he can, that going to a worse school and being the #1 student is better than going to the best and not being the top student. Or something like that. I think the meta study was based on someone’s writeup of the outcomes of PhD Econ grads. The #1 from anywhere did better than the #2 from the uber prestige U. I don’t remember exactly … one of those books… Bling?

    And to be picky … is this research proving ‘no difference’ or failing to prove ‘a difference’?

    I am dubious about anything using NHST. I suppose the major abuse are findings of significance, but it is asking a lot to expect decent statisticians to filter down to Education Research.

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  58. @advancedatheist
    Latin Americans don't have a reputation for voracious reading, except perhaps for Argentine porteños.

    But then a different mix of peoples settled in Argentina compared to Puerto Rico, many of them non-Iberian Europeans.

    Tyler Cowen, who travels a lot, said he has never seen a Brazilian reading a book at the airport.

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  59. @Travis
    i suspect a borderline student who did Not attend Stuyvesant may find it easier to get into a top 25 University. A friend of mine went to Stuyvesant and attended Rutgers, he scored above 1400 on his SAT back in 1986. His sister went to the local Public School in Queens and attended Yale despite having a lower SAT score but she finished near the top of her high school class while her brother was in the middle of the pack at Stuyvesant.

    My friend failed to finish in the top of his class at Stuyvesant , and those who did were accepted to Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia etc...Thus he was competing against his fellow Stuyvesant classmates to get into the top colleges. The top schools do not want to select 3 students from Stuyvesant...thus attending Stuyvesant probably hurt his opportunity of being accepted in a top 20 school. Would have been better for him to have finished in the top 10 of his High School and not attended Stuyvesant.

    What % of kids who didn’t quite get into Stuyvesant went to a nice upscale private prep school instead?

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  60. About four years ago Princeton graduate Susan Patton wrote a letter advising women attending Princeton to use the opportunity to find a Princeton husband. Ross Douthat of The New York Times observed that Patton was “giving away the game;” the true purpose of attending prestigious colleges was to meet and eventually network with other students attending prestigious colleges.

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    • Replies: @black sea
    I wonder what percentage of people attending highly ranked universities wind up marrying someone they met there. It seems to me that most such people get married around 8 to 10 years after graduating from college. That's a long time to date your college sweetheart.

    Here's an article that addresses this topic at Yale:

    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/01/24/fewer-college-couples-marry-post-graduation/

    From the article:


    According to a 2004 study he cited, almost 40 percent of married or divorced women who graduated from college in the years leading up to 1955 met their first spouse in college, but that number has dropped to just over 15 percent today.


     

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  61. guest says:
    @ThreeCranes
    Anyone remember when the pro football players went on strike a number of years ago? The owners brought in as scabs all the guys who were cut at the start of the season; those who just didn't quite make the grade. Sorta like the two groups being compared here.

    Everyone laughed, thinking that the scabs' play would be so inferior that fans would soon lose interest in flub ball. And for the first two weeks the performance was entertaining only for its ineptness. But then something happened. The teams jelled and the games got better. Really competitive in fact. No-one was laughing anymore. Least of all the players on strike.

    Funny, the strike ended soon after and the starting players came back to the gridiron. More than a few of the scabs found permanent positions on teams rosters.

    The lesson was that there really wasn't that much difference between the "didn't quite make the cut" guys and those who did.

    There were grander experiments along those lines than scabs during the strike. The USFL, the XFL, European and Canadian leagues, and to an extent arena football. I’m not expert enough to know the exact difference between the athleticism and professionalism in these leagues versus the NFL. But they are relatively boring in my experience.

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    • Replies: @It's All Ball Bearings
    Gridiron quality-wise the USFL was legit. Plenty of guys went NFL. It had the same market issues as the ABA, plus a Spring-Summer schedule that doomed it. CFL similar but survives as a foreign enterprise. Euro was essentially a minor league system. Arena more smaller city entertainment. XFL was I don't know WTF that was.
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  62. Pericles says:
    @Harold
    When I was young and foolish, and arrogant, I made the mistake of thinking that which university I attended didn’t matter much; that I could learn and produce as good work anywhere. This was true enough, but I came to learn that going to, say, Oxford would have been much better for networking, for meeting a better class of students and professors.

    Google was founded by people who met at MIT (I think). I had the same idea for the ‘pagerank’ algorithm they did, at about the same time. I don’t think this is an impressive feat, as the algorithm is something many people trained to think in a certain way should be able to come up with. If I was at MIT maybe I would have had a friend of similar ability, and other people around me that would have encouraged me to go into business with my ideas—as a naïve NZ farm boy, I didn’t even know what a VC was, a different milieu could have made a big difference.

    I don’t know if similar things apply to earlier schooling though.

    Basically true, I would say. My experience agrees with yours a great deal.

    For earlier schooling, I get the impression that grouping (“streaming”?) children based on intellect or achievements is a good idea. I recently read that Sweden used to have that sort of school, and there were remnants of it when I attended, but it was for the most part deliberately destroyed by the Social-Democrat party in the 1960s. These days we’re kind of dumb.

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  63. Pericles says:
    @Faraday's Bobcat
    I wonder if anyone has researched the effect of the other students on student achievement. It seems likely to me that a 130-IQ kid would be much better off with 130-IQ friends and 100-IQ teachers than 100-IQ friends and 130-IQ teachers. At least that's the theory I followed with my kids. I sent them to a school for gifted kids that had a fairly ordinary range of teachers, and they seemed to thrive. Other parents would fuss about Mr. X who lets the kids goof off in his class, but I really didn't care because my kids would come home and rave about their friends who could do Rubik's Cube, or had an 1800 chess rating, or knew 200 digits of pi.

    I guess this is the basis for tracking kids, which most teachers secretly believe in but don't like to admit, because someone has to teach the slow group.

    I guess this is the basis for tracking kids, which most teachers secretly believe in but don’t like to admit, because someone has to teach the slow group.

    My impression is teachers and the education profession only care about the slow group.

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    • Replies: @Kevin C.

    My impression is teachers and the education profession only care about the slow group.
     
    Well, that's the group that gives them the most opportunity for status signalling and moral preening. And on the opposite end, my personal experience as one of the "smart kids" was that whenever I had to bring an issue or problem to the teachers or administrators*, the frequent response was essentially 'if you're so smart, then go figure out how to solve it yourself.' Add in that teachers hate it when a student catches and corrects their mistakes. Or that some administrators in particular are threatened by the possibility that a student might be smarter than them, thus violating the 'natural hierarchy' that puts them on top (like the one junior high vice-principal who outright told me a kid my age had no business being as far ahead in my studies as I was, and that I should be actively trying to dumb myself down until I was back in my 'proper place').

    *Like when there was a serious possibility that I would be unable to graduate high school because I was too far ahead in math.
    , @Paul Murphy
    I am afraid that this may be because the majority of teachers have much more in common with dull students than with bright ones.
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  64. Nico says:
    @TG
    Indeed. But.

    Parents may not be as stupid as you think. It's just that instead of selecting a school for its pedagogical excellence, they may be selecting schools based on class. That is, they want their kids to rub elbows with, and make friends with and develop contacts and social skills with and even maybe marry, other kids who come from wealth and power.

    Well, of course, but The Atlantic has an agenda, so God forbid that they acknowledge any good practical reason for parents to avoid placing their children in dysfunctional (often, disproportionately black and Hispanic) student bodies.

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  65. Somebody ought to develop a course to help parents pick the right schools. Probably good grant money in that.

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  66. dilys says:

    [Autochthon #39]. Yes.

    Complicated, poignant, gas-lit and dangerous.

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  67. dearieme says:
    @Desiderius

    there is no such thing as best practice
     
    Oh there is, but it's a talent not readily transferable. It would be akin to imagining that all writers could be brought up to the standard of Steve Sailer.

    How could there possibly be a best practice that is independent of the people involved? That is taking American ideas of mass society – of everyone being interchangeable – too far.

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  68. Rapparee says:
    @Barnard

    What’s more, Pathak and his colleagues worry that, absent sufficient information for parents, choice-based education systems “penalize schools that enroll low-achievers rather than schools that offer poor instruction” and give school leaders a perverse incentive to focus on “making sure your school’s got the best kids” rather than improving school quality.
     
    Isn't this what has been going on for decades? Parents don't want their kids going to school with trouble makers and better teachers want to teach better behaved kids. Discipline standards have been gutted in most public schools, so if your children are in a classroom with disruptive students who aren't removed, it will negatively impact their education. Most of what happens in schools is geared toward bringing low achievers up to grade level, while average to above average kids are ignored. I think that is key, if school districts are unwilling to restore discipline standards, parents need to do whatever they can to avoid having their children in schools with low achievers.

    We already know that schools rarely make a huge difference to students’ academic performance. What researchers really need to study is whether attending certain schools can increase or decrease a student’s odds of getting knocked up, hooked on drugs, or stabbed in the bathroom. Even a motivated, high-IQ student’s life could get derailed by a felony conviction, brain injury, or bastard offspring. Objective data as to the likelihood of these outcomes would be immensely helpful to parents.

    From overhearing students’ conversations on the bus, I suspect that starting around age twelve or thirteen, it’s a really good idea to pull your kids from any school where most of the other students come from single-parent homes, if only for the sake of their sanity. With elementary school up to grade six, you’re probably fine sending them anywhere.

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  69. NAs a teacher with 25 years experience in every kind of school setting (public and private, suburban and ghetto, etc), it’s become abundantly clear to me that one gets out of education what one puts in. No more, no less.

    I was in the Atlanta School System in the early 90s, back before they got busted for cheating. That crap has been going on openly for YEARS. Principals with giant egos regularly threatened teachers not to “embarrass them” with our students’ crappy standardized test scores, implying we’d lose our jobs if we did. “All of us is jes’ one or two paychecks away from da screets, ya hear what I’m sayin’?”

    They danced a fine line between ensuring students did poorly enough to guarantee federal dollars keep flowing into the school, and well enough that their school wasn’t “the worst of the worst”.

    I quit public school teaching in Georgia before even completing my 3rd year, forfeiting my tenure. I was just another white professional driven away from the urban systems which supposedly need the most help. The black teachers and admins rejoiced when I resigned. They complain that whites are “racist” for not wanting to teach in the ghetto, yet on the rare occasions we DO decide to teach at a black school, they do everything in their power to get us to quit. Blacks in urban schools LOVE seeing white teachers fail.

    Yet the talking heads still yammer on about “bad schools”, as though these hellholes are somehow fixable. There’s no such thing as a bad school…only bad students, and racist BLACK adults running them.

    Brown vs Board was the single most damaging thing to happen to American schools.

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    • Replies: @StillCARealist
    What did you encourage your high-achieving black students to do? Move away?

    If you've got a blog going I'd love a link. It would be interesting to hear your perspective on teaching at all different kinds of schools.
    , @Triumph104

    They danced a fine line between ensuring students did poorly enough to guarantee federal dollars keep flowing into the school, and well enough that their school wasn’t “the worst of the worst”.
     
    I don't blame them. The US government perversely punishes schools and welfare recipients by cutting their funding if they make any significant improvement. As long as you stay screwed up, the money keeps flowing.

    The media push for more black teachers is because the billionaires controlling this country know that black-run schools manufacture chaos and that chaos allows the oligarchy to do what they want without interference from the 99 percenters. Whites are being harassed into sending their children to these chaos factories.

    Steve Job's widow is a majority stakeholder in The Atlantic, a leading promotor of diversity chaos. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are heavily involved in education in the US, Africa, and India because they want to control minority birth rates and make money selling software to public schools. Conservatives like Betsy Devos and the Walton Family pour money into charter schools because they want a compliant workforce and they want to privatize education. The Marva Collins hoax implemented by CBS was a short-lived attempt by conservatives to defund public school education. The easiest public schools to shut down and turn into charter schools are the black-run ones.
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  70. Ed says:
    @Triumph104
    From what I understand, a group of parents and alumni went to the state legislature and had the one exam requirement for admission written into state law in 1972. At the time there was a push by advocates and New City officials to make admissions more holistic.

    http://thediariesofalawstudent.blogspot.com/2012/02/the-diminishing-number-of-black.html

    I think people forget that the diversity push & lowering standards to achieve it aren’t new. Stuyvesant by the 70s had already been the premier city HS for decades. Stuyvesant parents probably saw what was happening to City College, where the erosion of entrance standards resulted in institutional degregadation. The Stuy parents probably knew instinctively that they needed a state law to protect against liberal city leaders that would one day do the same to Stuyvesant as was done to City College.

    It was a prescient piece of foresight on their part because 45 years later liberals are still gunning for the school.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Thanks for reminding me of City College. For the life of me, I couldn't think of what pushed the Stuyvesant parents and alumni to get the one standardized exam admissions requirement written into state law in 1972, but City College became open-admissions in 1970, so they didn't want Stuyvesant's prestige to plummet like City College's quickly did.
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  71. black sea says:
    @Diversity Heretic
    About four years ago Princeton graduate Susan Patton wrote a letter advising women attending Princeton to use the opportunity to find a Princeton husband. Ross Douthat of The New York Times observed that Patton was "giving away the game;" the true purpose of attending prestigious colleges was to meet and eventually network with other students attending prestigious colleges.

    I wonder what percentage of people attending highly ranked universities wind up marrying someone they met there. It seems to me that most such people get married around 8 to 10 years after graduating from college. That’s a long time to date your college sweetheart.

    Here’s an article that addresses this topic at Yale:

    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/01/24/fewer-college-couples-marry-post-graduation/

    From the article:

    According to a 2004 study he cited, almost 40 percent of married or divorced women who graduated from college in the years leading up to 1955 met their first spouse in college, but that number has dropped to just over 15 percent today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jim jones
    At my University the Chinese girls hook up with boys within a few weeks of starting
    , @Forbes
    The number of women (and proportion of total students) who graduated from college leading up to 1955 would've been very small. As well, many women stopped attending college upon a marriage proposal, so as to start a family. It was an amusing anecdote through at least the '8os, when a father was asked what his daughter's college major was, the reply was, "MRS degree."

    Yale, like most of the Ivies, was all-male.

    , @Steve Sailer
    A lot of female students at Harvard Business School (average age late 20s) threat HBS as the world's best MRS degree.
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  72. jack ryan says: • Website
    @Charles Pewitt
    Puerto Rico's schools are crummy because the students ain't so smart and the school staff is just as dumb. All you people who invested in supposedly tax free Puerto Rican municipal bonds sent some portion of your money to the corrupt and bloated staffs at Puerto Rican schools. No bail out for you!

    Puerto Rico must be cut loose from the United States immediately.

    All Puerto Ricans in the United States, and especially in Illinois, must be repatriated back to the island. Luis Gutierrez can be made Head Puerto Rican In Chief of the Puerto Rican school system.

    PRexit is what our blog host came up with in 2015:

    https://twitter.com/CharlesPewitt/status/615500716476624896

    “Puerto Rico must be cut loose from the United States immediately.”

    Ya gonna put all the Puerto Ricans here in our country in internment camps then deport them back to Puerto Rico?

    The enemy is inside our gates.

    The Harvey Weinstein, Jeff Zucker, Summer Redstone Media Mafia determines what is said and thought in our country.

    Ya got some plan to take down this media mafia?

    Let’s see the plan.

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    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    The Harvey Weinstein, Jeff Zucker, Summer Redstone Media Mafia determines what is said and thought in our country.

     

    I say start with Comcast NBC. The Brodsky mob controls Comcast -- somehow the Brodsky mob is now the Roberts mob. Why do they change their name? Redstone was Rothstein at one time, also.

    President Trump made a lot of money with Comcast NBC and he built up huge name recognition on his NBC TV show. Recently, Trump has gone after NBC News. GOP candidates in Republican Party primaries should run on the "COMCAST MUST BE DESTROYED" platform.

    Millions of Puerto Ricans could be bribed and/or strongly encouraged to leave the mainland and return to their island. After the next global financial implosion, it will be easy to remove tens of millions of foreigners from the United States. That is why the globalized central banks are using monetary extremism to keep the asset bubbles inflated. Debt and Demography explain most things. God explains everything else.
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  73. jack ryan says: • Website

    I’ve waited virtually my whole life for some George Wallace type populist to challenge the academic, media elite and win in some local way.

    Why can’t Republicans who now control virtually all Southern Governorships, state houses – why can’t they pass legislation that mandates that degrees from corrupt colleges and universities like Harvard and Yale or UK Berkeley are not recognized in states like Alabama and Tennessee?

    Why can’t populists make it reality that all lawyers and judges in Southern States have to work one week of honest physical labor in the Southern State – and that would include all the Harvard and Yale Law alums on the US Supreme Court (aren’t they all Harvard and Yale alums).

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    • Replies: @peterike

    Why can’t Republicans who now control virtually all Southern Governorships, state houses – why can’t they pass legislation that mandates that degrees from corrupt colleges and universities like Harvard and Yale or UK Berkeley are not recognized in states like Alabama and Tennessee?

     

    Because 98% of those Southern politicians are globalist cucks.
    , @Art Deco
    Why can’t Republicans who now control virtually all Southern Governorships, state houses – why can’t they pass legislation that mandates that degrees from corrupt colleges and universities like Harvard and Yale or UK Berkeley are not recognized in states like Alabama and Tennessee?

    Perhaps because most of them are local car dealers and real estate agents who might be adept at resisting really bad ideas but do not generate much on their own? It seems the usual drill where you have a Republican governor and legislature is that they spin their wheels passing 'tax cuts' that they later have to rescind because they lack an understanding of how to reduce state spending. Another favored activity is making exhibits of themselves by contriving amendments to the penal code commonly named after unfortunate moppets. (Jenna's Law will add 20 years to the sentence of anyone caught selling meth within 500 yards of a school...). There is an agency called ALEC which promotes model legislation. They've been around for decades, but it's hard to discern what they've accomplished.

    To get a sense of how otiose is your legislature, look around and see if there are jurisdictions in your state with elected lay coroners. Divvying up the state into a few jurisdiction and having an appointed coroner in each drawn from the ranks of certified forensic pathologists would be a no brainer, but it's only been done piecemeal over many decades. Check-out the actuarial soundness of state employee pension plans. The most sound for years have been found in Wisconsin and New York. The Republicans are in the best position in state legislatures they've been in in 90 years, but they'll deserve to lose those positions if they cannot up their game.
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  74. @guest
    There were grander experiments along those lines than scabs during the strike. The USFL, the XFL, European and Canadian leagues, and to an extent arena football. I'm not expert enough to know the exact difference between the athleticism and professionalism in these leagues versus the NFL. But they are relatively boring in my experience.

    Gridiron quality-wise the USFL was legit. Plenty of guys went NFL. It had the same market issues as the ABA, plus a Spring-Summer schedule that doomed it. CFL similar but survives as a foreign enterprise. Euro was essentially a minor league system. Arena more smaller city entertainment. XFL was I don’t know WTF that was.

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  75. Forbes says:
    @Barnard

    What’s more, Pathak and his colleagues worry that, absent sufficient information for parents, choice-based education systems “penalize schools that enroll low-achievers rather than schools that offer poor instruction” and give school leaders a perverse incentive to focus on “making sure your school’s got the best kids” rather than improving school quality.
     
    Isn't this what has been going on for decades? Parents don't want their kids going to school with trouble makers and better teachers want to teach better behaved kids. Discipline standards have been gutted in most public schools, so if your children are in a classroom with disruptive students who aren't removed, it will negatively impact their education. Most of what happens in schools is geared toward bringing low achievers up to grade level, while average to above average kids are ignored. I think that is key, if school districts are unwilling to restore discipline standards, parents need to do whatever they can to avoid having their children in schools with low achievers.

    give school leaders a perverse incentive to focus on “making sure your school’s got the best kids” rather than improving school quality.

    I’d like to see their definition of school quality, and their measure of “improving.”

    The article reeks of teacher union talking points.

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  76. george says:

    Stuyvesant is not the most difficult to get into NYC public school, Hunter is. Hunter is more similar to the Ivy leagues. If I remember right it takes more than test scores into account. I wonder if they tracked the students that just missed Hunter and compared them to those that just made it what would it look like. Hunter is the place that turned Martin Shkreli into the new Hitler.

    If you don’t like your neighborhood zoned school (negatively diverse?), Stuyvesant is a way out of the zoning system.

    Being the smartest kid in a negatively diverse school may give your kid advantages over being the dumbest kid at Stuyvesant. For example, Stuyvesant might have some impressive sounding elective classes, but are they oversubscribed to? Your neighborhood diversity school probably has empty places in the AP classes. If the staff there see opportunities, they will probably steer your kid to them because who else?

    All else being equal, Stuyvesant students spend a lot of time on the subways going to and from school.

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  77. Forbes says:
    @International Jew
    Parents making "wrong" choices? Only nerds and economists imagine that in selecting a school for our kid, our only criterion is maximizing his SAT score or his chance of getting into Harvard. What mattered the most to us, and what I conclude from friends, was cultural factors — the school's general philosophy, the social background of the other students, etc. The same is true regardless of the parents' politics.

    Those people who are gung-ho for centralized control of the schools, for imposing a single "scientifically" correct system top-down, fail to understand that education is part of child-rearing. And that for the "experts" to determine that parents are making "suboptimal" schooling choices, is as presumptuous as second-guessing how we transmit our religion, teach manners or set bedtimes.

    Yeah, it’s alleged wrong choices are made because families act on insufficient information. Apparently the sufficient information is withheld from parents by the experts (education administrators and teachers)–for how else could such an allegation be made, except that the sufficient information is held elsewhere?

    Surely there’s a logical fallacy for such an inept argument…

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  78. Forbes says:
    @International Jew
    Heh, so it is. I withdraw my second paragraph.

    How did Stuyvesant escape affirmative action??

    The affirmative action came in the form of seven other test-admission high schools to compete with Stuyvesant for students. Back in the day–the ’60s/’70s–when Stuyvesant’s reputation was already top notch (by Ivy admissions), Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech academics were similarly acclaimed. Though, there can only be one top-dog. As for AA results today, the eight high schools are roughly one-half Asian, one-third white, with blacks, Hispanics at single digit percentages.

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  79. Art Deco says:

    How Do We Keep Schools from Screwing Up?

    Turn over the incorrigibles to the police, give students and their parents impersonal feedback, and channel students to a program best adapted to what they bring to the table.

    1. Quit using public agency as a delivery mode except for incorrigibles no one else wants. You might have state schools in remote areas where schooling is high-overhead because the clientele are few. You might have it on military bases or appended to consular and diplomatic posts. Not many people live in Alaska, or in Eastern Oregon, or on Indian reservations, or are Foreign Service kids. A larger number (but still a single-digit share) would be turned over to the tender mercies of sheriff’s deputies and kept in detention.

    2. Have schools run by geographically circumscribed philanthropic corporations, with the standard model a self-regenerating board succeeded in increments by one elected by resident alumni. Have the Secretary of State or state board of elections supervise the contests for seats on the board. A variant model might permit an extant corporate body with a defined set of stakeholders to choose the trustees: a bishop, or the employees of a particular company, or the members of a given fraternal lodge, or the members of a given protestant congregation. Again, any elections should be supervised by the usual authorities, like those for public office.

    3. Have for quality control regents’ exam series adapted to your clientele. Have about five paces of basic eduction at the primary level. At the secondary level have two paces of academic examinations, 1 of vocational examinations, and 2 of basic education for the slow students. Produce league tables which aspire to rank according to value-added, and have the attorney-general bring actions to relieve the poorest performers of their franchises (or close them entirely). You slice off 1% or 2% every year, you can get rid of the cheesiest operators in a few years.

    4. Grant everyone a franchise to homeschool, revocable if their kid performs poorly on regents’ examinations.

    5. Finance via vouchers. For those aspiring to homeschool or use tuition-funded schools, compensate them for turning in their voucher to the issuing authority. The compensation would be according to a formula which would attempt to approximate their household’s contribution to financing the redemption of vouchers, and would generally be about 1/3 the face value. Schools accepting vouchers would be prohibited by law from making any ancillary charges at all, and would be prosecuted for extorting donations to secure admission or retention.

    6. Subject schools to only circumscribed regulation (e.g. local building and fire codes; labor law requiring wages paid in cash every two weeks, salaries paid in cash every month; respect for fiduciary duty by trustees; respect for the penal code and contract law, respect for the health code in the cafeteria). Do not regulate their admissions policies, student retention policies, employee hiring and promotion and retention policies, curricular content, disciplinary standards &c. Just bring suit against a school if it is a demonstrably poor performer.

    7. Cut off voucher financing at age 18. Students who wish to continue their secondary schooling could enroll in community colleges. Community colleges would be catchment-specific public trusts run by elected boards. They’d have an endowment which the public could add to at odd intervals with bond issues approved by referenda. They’d have donation income. Aside from that they’d charge tuition, which would be financed out of household resources or loans contracted at market rates after serious review by underwriters. Students enrolled at community colleges would sit for the same regents’ exams secondary students do.

    8. Students who had completed 85% of the distance on a clutch of secondary certificates (say, four, with three in academic subjects) could sit for state baccalaureate examinations which would distribute a ration of berths in the freshman class of the state’s colleges and universities. You could substitute SAT and achievement tests for this statewide examination. The award of a berth would give students a claim on tuition and room-and-board vouchers which they could execute by paying a fee to the state treasury. The fee would be a function of the number of tax returns they or their parents have filed in the state and the number of vouchers received to date. For many the fee would be zero.

    9. Repair the degree architecture of tertiary schooling, abolishing the baccalaureate degree. Academics and the arts would have a schedule of 1, 2, 3, and 4 year degrees, capped with dissertation programs for some. Vocational subjects might use that schedule, but the 48 credit calendar-year degree would be modal. Professional schools would generally require preparatory certificates earned in a college of arts and sciences, with a two-year program to prepare for medical school the very longest.

    10. Restructure teaching certificate programs. Have a bog standard certificate program consist of a menu of methods courses, an internship, and a stipended apprenticeship, which would take two years in toto. Berths in certificate programs would be distributed by state baccalaureate examinations. You’d have 8 or 9 types of certificate each with its own supplementary admissions requirements and each with a signature set of methods courses and placements (say, certificates for general elementary instruction, art, music, athletics, academic secondary, vocational secondary, special education, ESOL…). However, do not require schools limit themselves to certified teachers. Let the market decide the value of the certificate.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke, Desiderius
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  80. Kevin C. says:
    @Pericles

    I guess this is the basis for tracking kids, which most teachers secretly believe in but don’t like to admit, because someone has to teach the slow group.

     

    My impression is teachers and the education profession only care about the slow group.

    My impression is teachers and the education profession only care about the slow group.

    Well, that’s the group that gives them the most opportunity for status signalling and moral preening. And on the opposite end, my personal experience as one of the “smart kids” was that whenever I had to bring an issue or problem to the teachers or administrators*, the frequent response was essentially ‘if you’re so smart, then go figure out how to solve it yourself.’ Add in that teachers hate it when a student catches and corrects their mistakes. Or that some administrators in particular are threatened by the possibility that a student might be smarter than them, thus violating the ‘natural hierarchy’ that puts them on top (like the one junior high vice-principal who outright told me a kid my age had no business being as far ahead in my studies as I was, and that I should be actively trying to dumb myself down until I was back in my ‘proper place’).

    *Like when there was a serious possibility that I would be unable to graduate high school because I was too far ahead in math.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    The dumber and badly behaved kids are the key to all those cushy well paid not teaching jobs where they can be away from the screeching jabbering morons. I remember a National Review article. They did some research and found that the NYC public school system had more administrators for a population of 7 million than the entire EU which had about 370 million population.

    That's why the mis education profession likes dumb and bad. It's also why they love immigration from the turd world. More and more kids, more and more dumb and bad kids. They are ranchers and the kids are their livestock. If dumb and bad kids or stock bring in more money, the ranchers will breed dumb and bad.
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  81. jim jones says:
    @black sea
    I wonder what percentage of people attending highly ranked universities wind up marrying someone they met there. It seems to me that most such people get married around 8 to 10 years after graduating from college. That's a long time to date your college sweetheart.

    Here's an article that addresses this topic at Yale:

    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/01/24/fewer-college-couples-marry-post-graduation/

    From the article:


    According to a 2004 study he cited, almost 40 percent of married or divorced women who graduated from college in the years leading up to 1955 met their first spouse in college, but that number has dropped to just over 15 percent today.


     

    At my University the Chinese girls hook up with boys within a few weeks of starting

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  82. Forbes says:
    @black sea
    I wonder what percentage of people attending highly ranked universities wind up marrying someone they met there. It seems to me that most such people get married around 8 to 10 years after graduating from college. That's a long time to date your college sweetheart.

    Here's an article that addresses this topic at Yale:

    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/01/24/fewer-college-couples-marry-post-graduation/

    From the article:


    According to a 2004 study he cited, almost 40 percent of married or divorced women who graduated from college in the years leading up to 1955 met their first spouse in college, but that number has dropped to just over 15 percent today.


     

    The number of women (and proportion of total students) who graduated from college leading up to 1955 would’ve been very small. As well, many women stopped attending college upon a marriage proposal, so as to start a family. It was an amusing anecdote through at least the ’8os, when a father was asked what his daughter’s college major was, the reply was, “MRS degree.”

    Yale, like most of the Ivies, was all-male.

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    • Replies: @black sea
    The study was cited by a professor from The University of Texas, in an article published in The Yale Daily. Neither the study nor the article focused particularly on Yale.
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  83. Peer pressure has a lot to do with performance if you’re already smart. If it’s cool to be smart at your school, you won’t hold yourself back the way you would in a school where raising your hand and knowing the answer might get you jumped–or at least diminish your chances of ever getting a date.

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  84. peterike says:
    @jack ryan
    I've waited virtually my whole life for some George Wallace type populist to challenge the academic, media elite and win in some local way.

    Why can't Republicans who now control virtually all Southern Governorships, state houses - why can't they pass legislation that mandates that degrees from corrupt colleges and universities like Harvard and Yale or UK Berkeley are not recognized in states like Alabama and Tennessee?

    Why can't populists make it reality that all lawyers and judges in Southern States have to work one week of honest physical labor in the Southern State - and that would include all the Harvard and Yale Law alums on the US Supreme Court (aren't they all Harvard and Yale alums).

    Why can’t Republicans who now control virtually all Southern Governorships, state houses – why can’t they pass legislation that mandates that degrees from corrupt colleges and universities like Harvard and Yale or UK Berkeley are not recognized in states like Alabama and Tennessee?

    Because 98% of those Southern politicians are globalist cucks.

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  85. Alden says:
    @Travis
    i suspect a borderline student who did Not attend Stuyvesant may find it easier to get into a top 25 University. A friend of mine went to Stuyvesant and attended Rutgers, he scored above 1400 on his SAT back in 1986. His sister went to the local Public School in Queens and attended Yale despite having a lower SAT score but she finished near the top of her high school class while her brother was in the middle of the pack at Stuyvesant.

    My friend failed to finish in the top of his class at Stuyvesant , and those who did were accepted to Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia etc...Thus he was competing against his fellow Stuyvesant classmates to get into the top colleges. The top schools do not want to select 3 students from Stuyvesant...thus attending Stuyvesant probably hurt his opportunity of being accepted in a top 20 school. Would have been better for him to have finished in the top 10 of his High School and not attended Stuyvesant.

    An admissions director at a very small Christian high school explained to me that the smaller the high school, the better chance kids have of getting into a top college. The big high schools with say 1,500 kids in the senior class send dozens, even hundreds of applications to top colleges.

    But a small Christian high school with only about 60 seniors sends few applications and the kids from a small school have a better chance. Seems like a good theory, I don’t know if it’s really true.

    But the major thing on college applications now days is the poor poor pitiful me essay.

    “What was your greatest struggle and how did you over come it”? ”

    “I was born a crack baby and mom’s pimp killed her in front of me and I grew up in foster homes and was raped by White male social workers and was homeless for a while and am part black and part Uzbek and I have been discriminated against and abused all my life. After years of discrimination I am finally transitioning from the sex to which “I was assigned at birth” by an evil White male Christian Dr. But all 4 of my grandparents and both parents went to Liberal Propaganda University and the family can afford to pay $70,000 a year tuition and dorm fees plus massive donations and gifts”

    The thing is to be au courant with the latest PC c**p. Transgender is the new black on college admissions. Really, why bother studying? Just check the magic black and transgender boxes and you’re in!!

    That’s the key to college admissions now days. They will even accept Whites with outstanding SAT and GPAs if the sob story is politically correct enough.

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  86. @Buffalo Joe
    The crown jewel of the Buffalo Public School District is City Honors. There has much hand wringing because, in spite of every effort to increase black enrollment, the number of blacks admitted has fallen yearly. There is a proposal to start another City Honors with a less stringent enrollment criteria, but research shows that the next layer of applicants, who don't quite meet the criteria for acceptance at CH, are more White and Asian students. This week's lament, in the Warren Buffet owned Buffalo News, is there are not enough minority teachers. Oh, yawn. The teachers test for NYC has been set aside twice by Judge Kimba Woods because she said it was unfair to minorities. To what level should we reduce educational standards before the SJWs are happy? Andrew Cuomo is proud to point out the average spending, per student, in NY school districts is $19000. Student absenteeism in Buffalo schools is criminal, at 37% missing 35 days or more, that is seven weeks of school. Buffalo school teachers average more than 18 days absent per year, basically three weeks plus. Buffalo's school budget approaches ONE BILLION DOLLARS per year. My son has my one grand daughter in a high end Catholic all girls HS outside of Cleveland. She is flourishing. His next two kids will attend prep or Catholic HS too. Sacrifice is what makes to help his kids excel. I am sorry the Catholic schools, other than the Prep schools are gone. There should be a RICO investigation into public schools countrywide. If you are interested< Google "The State of New York's Failing School Districts," from Cuomo's office for an eye opening look at failed school districts.

    Our local Catholic high school had countless Protestant kids, 4 Jewish ones, and probably a few atheists and agnostics, because the public school was such a mess.

    Unfortunately, NY’s Board of Regents has made the Education major (or at least some credits in the College of Education) required for all schools, which means the private and parochial schools are now staffed by people as poorly-trained as the public ones.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Interesting that the religious and secular old high schools are flourishing because the public schools are so bad and minority. Here in San Mateo and the Silicon Valley, the old schools such as Bellarmine, Juniperro Serra, Mercy Burlingame, Crystal Spring, Priory, Notre Dame Belmont have received massive donations from the ultra rich tech people because they want their kids in majority white, civilized high achieving schools. Serra has a 30 million scholarship fund all donated by the Silicon Valley executives. It's basically to preserve decent schools for their kids.

    For some strange reason, the wealthy White tech people don't want their kids going to school with the dumb and bad children of their maids, gardeners, handymen cooks and dishwashers.

    The Christian schools still teach only bible and their version of Christianity. But the Catholic schools teach all religions to accommodate the numerous religions of the kids.
    , @Anonymous
    Schools of Education are the devil's nursery. They should be gotten rid of.

    "Education" should not be a major. It should be a trade learned via apprenticeship or a vo tech style training program after one has become an appropriate SME to teach middle or high school or after a normal school prep for elementary teachers.

    High school science and math teachers should have a BS in a hard science, engineering or math, English and social studies, history, etc a BA or BFA in a suitable subject plus either be a military veteran or have worked for a private employer for a certain amount of time in a capacity befitting a college graduate.

    And making former military drill sergeants into assistant or associate principals, with some additional education if necessary (they have GI Bill VA benefits, right?) is a very good idea indeed.
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  87. I have taught for most of my career in a large AP program in a major city in Canada. After years of success with National Scholars, winners in academic competitions, graduating future doctors, lawyers, academics, engineers, and musicians, our program is in inevitable and inexorable decline. Demographic trends are making our school more diverse and vibrant, and parents who have a choice will not send their children to our school and neighbourhood, no matter the reputation and success of our program. The safety of their child and a congenial learning environment are paramount, and we can no longer ensure either of these.

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  88. Alden says:
    @Kevin C.

    My impression is teachers and the education profession only care about the slow group.
     
    Well, that's the group that gives them the most opportunity for status signalling and moral preening. And on the opposite end, my personal experience as one of the "smart kids" was that whenever I had to bring an issue or problem to the teachers or administrators*, the frequent response was essentially 'if you're so smart, then go figure out how to solve it yourself.' Add in that teachers hate it when a student catches and corrects their mistakes. Or that some administrators in particular are threatened by the possibility that a student might be smarter than them, thus violating the 'natural hierarchy' that puts them on top (like the one junior high vice-principal who outright told me a kid my age had no business being as far ahead in my studies as I was, and that I should be actively trying to dumb myself down until I was back in my 'proper place').

    *Like when there was a serious possibility that I would be unable to graduate high school because I was too far ahead in math.

    The dumber and badly behaved kids are the key to all those cushy well paid not teaching jobs where they can be away from the screeching jabbering morons. I remember a National Review article. They did some research and found that the NYC public school system had more administrators for a population of 7 million than the entire EU which had about 370 million population.

    That’s why the mis education profession likes dumb and bad. It’s also why they love immigration from the turd world. More and more kids, more and more dumb and bad kids. They are ranchers and the kids are their livestock. If dumb and bad kids or stock bring in more money, the ranchers will breed dumb and bad.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    That’s why the mis education profession likes dumb and bad. I

    Thomas Sowell contends that a great many teachers were indifferent students and identify with indifferent students. That aside, I suspect in most schools that there are a few ringers on the faculty, but the real problem is the administration, the school psychologist, and off-site apparatchicks, especially legal counsel.
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  89. @jack ryan
    "Puerto Rico must be cut loose from the United States immediately."

    Ya gonna put all the Puerto Ricans here in our country in internment camps then deport them back to Puerto Rico?

    The enemy is inside our gates.

    The Harvey Weinstein, Jeff Zucker, Summer Redstone Media Mafia determines what is said and thought in our country.

    Ya got some plan to take down this media mafia?

    Let's see the plan.

    The Harvey Weinstein, Jeff Zucker, Summer Redstone Media Mafia determines what is said and thought in our country.

    I say start with Comcast NBC. The Brodsky mob controls Comcast — somehow the Brodsky mob is now the Roberts mob. Why do they change their name? Redstone was Rothstein at one time, also.

    President Trump made a lot of money with Comcast NBC and he built up huge name recognition on his NBC TV show. Recently, Trump has gone after NBC News. GOP candidates in Republican Party primaries should run on the “COMCAST MUST BE DESTROYED” platform.

    Millions of Puerto Ricans could be bribed and/or strongly encouraged to leave the mainland and return to their island. After the next global financial implosion, it will be easy to remove tens of millions of foreigners from the United States. That is why the globalized central banks are using monetary extremism to keep the asset bubbles inflated. Debt and Demography explain most things. God explains everything else.

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  90. @Alden
    The way people go off to college a thousand miles away and then get jobs away from the home town means that high school connections end at graduation unless one comes back home to work and live.

    Aren’t these kids from NYC? The odds of coming back to that home town are pretty good.

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  91. Alden says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Our local Catholic high school had countless Protestant kids, 4 Jewish ones, and probably a few atheists and agnostics, because the public school was such a mess.

    Unfortunately, NY's Board of Regents has made the Education major (or at least some credits in the College of Education) required for all schools, which means the private and parochial schools are now staffed by people as poorly-trained as the public ones.

    Interesting that the religious and secular old high schools are flourishing because the public schools are so bad and minority. Here in San Mateo and the Silicon Valley, the old schools such as Bellarmine, Juniperro Serra, Mercy Burlingame, Crystal Spring, Priory, Notre Dame Belmont have received massive donations from the ultra rich tech people because they want their kids in majority white, civilized high achieving schools. Serra has a 30 million scholarship fund all donated by the Silicon Valley executives. It’s basically to preserve decent schools for their kids.

    For some strange reason, the wealthy White tech people don’t want their kids going to school with the dumb and bad children of their maids, gardeners, handymen cooks and dishwashers.

    The Christian schools still teach only bible and their version of Christianity. But the Catholic schools teach all religions to accommodate the numerous religions of the kids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    In the '80s, a number of inner-city parents sent their African Baptist or AME kids to Catholic schools if they could scrape together the money by double- or triple-shifting. Gee, I wonder why....
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  92. black sea says:
    @Forbes
    The number of women (and proportion of total students) who graduated from college leading up to 1955 would've been very small. As well, many women stopped attending college upon a marriage proposal, so as to start a family. It was an amusing anecdote through at least the '8os, when a father was asked what his daughter's college major was, the reply was, "MRS degree."

    Yale, like most of the Ivies, was all-male.

    The study was cited by a professor from The University of Texas, in an article published in The Yale Daily. Neither the study nor the article focused particularly on Yale.

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  93. George says:

    “How Do We Keep Schools from Screwing Up?”

    I think ‘How Do We Keep Public Schools from Screwing Up’ is the issue. I don’t think people are asking that question of Institut Le Rosey, Phillips Academy Andover, or Hogwarts (but I only read about half the first volume of the series). How do we keep Montessori from screwing up? How do we keep Kumon from screwing up? No, the question is how do we keep public school from screwing up? The answer is if Public School is necessary, then just accept it for what it is. Like the military or the Department of motor vehicles.

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  94. NOTA says:
    @Discordiax
    Speculation on why Puerto Rican schools suck, even taking into account student quality: language barrier.

    Mediocre to bad schools in the US still have the ability to use a wealth of English-language materials--textbooks, books on teaching, etc. I don't know that there's the same body of easily accessible stuff in Spanish. (Maybe there is, there are hundreds of millions of Spanish speakers, the normal amount of whom send their kids to schools.)

    Do Puerto Rican schools measure up to Latin American standards?

    The migration from PR to the mainland is selective–smarter, bolder, more ambitious, harder-working people migrate. That could easily have an impact on the quality of the students–the children of the parents who stayed behind are less smart, ambitious, etc. than the children whose parents took them to New York or Miami.

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  95. @Ed
    I think people forget that the diversity push & lowering standards to achieve it aren't new. Stuyvesant by the 70s had already been the premier city HS for decades. Stuyvesant parents probably saw what was happening to City College, where the erosion of entrance standards resulted in institutional degregadation. The Stuy parents probably knew instinctively that they needed a state law to protect against liberal city leaders that would one day do the same to Stuyvesant as was done to City College.

    It was a prescient piece of foresight on their part because 45 years later liberals are still gunning for the school.

    Thanks for reminding me of City College. For the life of me, I couldn’t think of what pushed the Stuyvesant parents and alumni to get the one standardized exam admissions requirement written into state law in 1972, but City College became open-admissions in 1970, so they didn’t want Stuyvesant’s prestige to plummet like City College’s quickly did.

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  96. @Alden
    Interesting that the religious and secular old high schools are flourishing because the public schools are so bad and minority. Here in San Mateo and the Silicon Valley, the old schools such as Bellarmine, Juniperro Serra, Mercy Burlingame, Crystal Spring, Priory, Notre Dame Belmont have received massive donations from the ultra rich tech people because they want their kids in majority white, civilized high achieving schools. Serra has a 30 million scholarship fund all donated by the Silicon Valley executives. It's basically to preserve decent schools for their kids.

    For some strange reason, the wealthy White tech people don't want their kids going to school with the dumb and bad children of their maids, gardeners, handymen cooks and dishwashers.

    The Christian schools still teach only bible and their version of Christianity. But the Catholic schools teach all religions to accommodate the numerous religions of the kids.

    In the ’80s, a number of inner-city parents sent their African Baptist or AME kids to Catholic schools if they could scrape together the money by double- or triple-shifting. Gee, I wonder why….

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  97. @Fled the Undertow
    NAs a teacher with 25 years experience in every kind of school setting (public and private, suburban and ghetto, etc), it's become abundantly clear to me that one gets out of education what one puts in. No more, no less.

    I was in the Atlanta School System in the early 90s, back before they got busted for cheating. That crap has been going on openly for YEARS. Principals with giant egos regularly threatened teachers not to "embarrass them" with our students' crappy standardized test scores, implying we'd lose our jobs if we did. "All of us is jes' one or two paychecks away from da screets, ya hear what I'm sayin'?"

    They danced a fine line between ensuring students did poorly enough to guarantee federal dollars keep flowing into the school, and well enough that their school wasn't "the worst of the worst".

    I quit public school teaching in Georgia before even completing my 3rd year, forfeiting my tenure. I was just another white professional driven away from the urban systems which supposedly need the most help. The black teachers and admins rejoiced when I resigned. They complain that whites are "racist" for not wanting to teach in the ghetto, yet on the rare occasions we DO decide to teach at a black school, they do everything in their power to get us to quit. Blacks in urban schools LOVE seeing white teachers fail.

    Yet the talking heads still yammer on about "bad schools", as though these hellholes are somehow fixable. There's no such thing as a bad school...only bad students, and racist BLACK adults running them.

    Brown vs Board was the single most damaging thing to happen to American schools.

    What did you encourage your high-achieving black students to do? Move away?

    If you’ve got a blog going I’d love a link. It would be interesting to hear your perspective on teaching at all different kinds of schools.

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  98. @Fled the Undertow
    NAs a teacher with 25 years experience in every kind of school setting (public and private, suburban and ghetto, etc), it's become abundantly clear to me that one gets out of education what one puts in. No more, no less.

    I was in the Atlanta School System in the early 90s, back before they got busted for cheating. That crap has been going on openly for YEARS. Principals with giant egos regularly threatened teachers not to "embarrass them" with our students' crappy standardized test scores, implying we'd lose our jobs if we did. "All of us is jes' one or two paychecks away from da screets, ya hear what I'm sayin'?"

    They danced a fine line between ensuring students did poorly enough to guarantee federal dollars keep flowing into the school, and well enough that their school wasn't "the worst of the worst".

    I quit public school teaching in Georgia before even completing my 3rd year, forfeiting my tenure. I was just another white professional driven away from the urban systems which supposedly need the most help. The black teachers and admins rejoiced when I resigned. They complain that whites are "racist" for not wanting to teach in the ghetto, yet on the rare occasions we DO decide to teach at a black school, they do everything in their power to get us to quit. Blacks in urban schools LOVE seeing white teachers fail.

    Yet the talking heads still yammer on about "bad schools", as though these hellholes are somehow fixable. There's no such thing as a bad school...only bad students, and racist BLACK adults running them.

    Brown vs Board was the single most damaging thing to happen to American schools.

    They danced a fine line between ensuring students did poorly enough to guarantee federal dollars keep flowing into the school, and well enough that their school wasn’t “the worst of the worst”.

    I don’t blame them. The US government perversely punishes schools and welfare recipients by cutting their funding if they make any significant improvement. As long as you stay screwed up, the money keeps flowing.

    The media push for more black teachers is because the billionaires controlling this country know that black-run schools manufacture chaos and that chaos allows the oligarchy to do what they want without interference from the 99 percenters. Whites are being harassed into sending their children to these chaos factories.

    Steve Job’s widow is a majority stakeholder in The Atlantic, a leading promotor of diversity chaos. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are heavily involved in education in the US, Africa, and India because they want to control minority birth rates and make money selling software to public schools. Conservatives like Betsy Devos and the Walton Family pour money into charter schools because they want a compliant workforce and they want to privatize education. The Marva Collins hoax implemented by CBS was a short-lived attempt by conservatives to defund public school education. The easiest public schools to shut down and turn into charter schools are the black-run ones.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Conservatives like Betsy Devos and the Walton Family pour money into charter schools because they want a compliant workforce and they want to privatize education. The Marva Collins hoax implemented by CBS was a short-lived attempt by conservatives to defund public school education. T

    Your issues and imagination are not something anyone can help you with. I take it you're on the payroll.

    If you fancy British labor relations ca. 1975 (and that's what a non-compliant workforce is) would be beneficial to any party other than some nasty labor meatheads, I'm vending bridges.


    Marva Collins was not a hoax and there is every reason to liquidate public agencies providing educational services. Schooling is a fee-for-service activity which emerges naturally on the open market. The reason for public financing is an interest in assuring baselines of consumption for civic and economic reasons. (Whether the reasons are well-founded or not is another matter). That can be handled quite nicely with voucher distribution except in very circumscribed cases. Tertiary schooling is another matter, but even in that case localized monopolies financed by property taxes is not the advisable course of action.
    , @keuril
    I believe Krueger and Dale did a follow-up study published about eleven years later where they showed similar outcomes for people who applied to a more selective school, but were rejected, and attended a lower selectivity school. So in this case the finding was simply that, regardless of admission, students merely having the chutzpah to apply to more selective schools had subsequent earnings on par with enrollees.
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  99. Art Deco says:
    @Triumph104

    They danced a fine line between ensuring students did poorly enough to guarantee federal dollars keep flowing into the school, and well enough that their school wasn’t “the worst of the worst”.
     
    I don't blame them. The US government perversely punishes schools and welfare recipients by cutting their funding if they make any significant improvement. As long as you stay screwed up, the money keeps flowing.

    The media push for more black teachers is because the billionaires controlling this country know that black-run schools manufacture chaos and that chaos allows the oligarchy to do what they want without interference from the 99 percenters. Whites are being harassed into sending their children to these chaos factories.

    Steve Job's widow is a majority stakeholder in The Atlantic, a leading promotor of diversity chaos. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are heavily involved in education in the US, Africa, and India because they want to control minority birth rates and make money selling software to public schools. Conservatives like Betsy Devos and the Walton Family pour money into charter schools because they want a compliant workforce and they want to privatize education. The Marva Collins hoax implemented by CBS was a short-lived attempt by conservatives to defund public school education. The easiest public schools to shut down and turn into charter schools are the black-run ones.

    Conservatives like Betsy Devos and the Walton Family pour money into charter schools because they want a compliant workforce and they want to privatize education. The Marva Collins hoax implemented by CBS was a short-lived attempt by conservatives to defund public school education. T

    Your issues and imagination are not something anyone can help you with. I take it you’re on the payroll.

    If you fancy British labor relations ca. 1975 (and that’s what a non-compliant workforce is) would be beneficial to any party other than some nasty labor meatheads, I’m vending bridges.

    Marva Collins was not a hoax and there is every reason to liquidate public agencies providing educational services. Schooling is a fee-for-service activity which emerges naturally on the open market. The reason for public financing is an interest in assuring baselines of consumption for civic and economic reasons. (Whether the reasons are well-founded or not is another matter). That can be handled quite nicely with voucher distribution except in very circumscribed cases. Tertiary schooling is another matter, but even in that case localized monopolies financed by property taxes is not the advisable course of action.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke
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  100. Art Deco says:
    @jack ryan
    I've waited virtually my whole life for some George Wallace type populist to challenge the academic, media elite and win in some local way.

    Why can't Republicans who now control virtually all Southern Governorships, state houses - why can't they pass legislation that mandates that degrees from corrupt colleges and universities like Harvard and Yale or UK Berkeley are not recognized in states like Alabama and Tennessee?

    Why can't populists make it reality that all lawyers and judges in Southern States have to work one week of honest physical labor in the Southern State - and that would include all the Harvard and Yale Law alums on the US Supreme Court (aren't they all Harvard and Yale alums).

    Why can’t Republicans who now control virtually all Southern Governorships, state houses – why can’t they pass legislation that mandates that degrees from corrupt colleges and universities like Harvard and Yale or UK Berkeley are not recognized in states like Alabama and Tennessee?

    Perhaps because most of them are local car dealers and real estate agents who might be adept at resisting really bad ideas but do not generate much on their own? It seems the usual drill where you have a Republican governor and legislature is that they spin their wheels passing ‘tax cuts’ that they later have to rescind because they lack an understanding of how to reduce state spending. Another favored activity is making exhibits of themselves by contriving amendments to the penal code commonly named after unfortunate moppets. (Jenna’s Law will add 20 years to the sentence of anyone caught selling meth within 500 yards of a school…). There is an agency called ALEC which promotes model legislation. They’ve been around for decades, but it’s hard to discern what they’ve accomplished.

    To get a sense of how otiose is your legislature, look around and see if there are jurisdictions in your state with elected lay coroners. Divvying up the state into a few jurisdiction and having an appointed coroner in each drawn from the ranks of certified forensic pathologists would be a no brainer, but it’s only been done piecemeal over many decades. Check-out the actuarial soundness of state employee pension plans. The most sound for years have been found in Wisconsin and New York. The Republicans are in the best position in state legislatures they’ve been in in 90 years, but they’ll deserve to lose those positions if they cannot up their game.

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  101. Art Deco says:
    @Alden
    The dumber and badly behaved kids are the key to all those cushy well paid not teaching jobs where they can be away from the screeching jabbering morons. I remember a National Review article. They did some research and found that the NYC public school system had more administrators for a population of 7 million than the entire EU which had about 370 million population.

    That's why the mis education profession likes dumb and bad. It's also why they love immigration from the turd world. More and more kids, more and more dumb and bad kids. They are ranchers and the kids are their livestock. If dumb and bad kids or stock bring in more money, the ranchers will breed dumb and bad.

    That’s why the mis education profession likes dumb and bad. I

    Thomas Sowell contends that a great many teachers were indifferent students and identify with indifferent students. That aside, I suspect in most schools that there are a few ringers on the faculty, but the real problem is the administration, the school psychologist, and off-site apparatchicks, especially legal counsel.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke
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  102. @Pericles

    I guess this is the basis for tracking kids, which most teachers secretly believe in but don’t like to admit, because someone has to teach the slow group.

     

    My impression is teachers and the education profession only care about the slow group.

    I am afraid that this may be because the majority of teachers have much more in common with dull students than with bright ones.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Every kid knows that teachers can't be very smart because as grown-ups they're still in school. They rank above only correctional officers, who put themselves in prison for thirty years.

    In all seriousness, by the time I was probably twelve I knew that with a few definite exceptions, most teachers were dunderheads. And I went to public schools, but ones that were definitely above average both for the upscale suburban area and nationally. The scion of a certain very famous beer fortune was allowed to attend the same high school I did, so it couldn't have been held in too much contempt. (He was in the news recently for something or other).

    The ones who were good I still remember fondly: they did teach me a few things.
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  103. @black sea
    I wonder what percentage of people attending highly ranked universities wind up marrying someone they met there. It seems to me that most such people get married around 8 to 10 years after graduating from college. That's a long time to date your college sweetheart.

    Here's an article that addresses this topic at Yale:

    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/01/24/fewer-college-couples-marry-post-graduation/

    From the article:


    According to a 2004 study he cited, almost 40 percent of married or divorced women who graduated from college in the years leading up to 1955 met their first spouse in college, but that number has dropped to just over 15 percent today.


     

    A lot of female students at Harvard Business School (average age late 20s) threat HBS as the world’s best MRS degree.

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  104. Our savant (Art Deco) has really reached his wheelhouse on this thread.

    One outstanding comment after another.

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  105. keuril says:
    @Triumph104

    They danced a fine line between ensuring students did poorly enough to guarantee federal dollars keep flowing into the school, and well enough that their school wasn’t “the worst of the worst”.
     
    I don't blame them. The US government perversely punishes schools and welfare recipients by cutting their funding if they make any significant improvement. As long as you stay screwed up, the money keeps flowing.

    The media push for more black teachers is because the billionaires controlling this country know that black-run schools manufacture chaos and that chaos allows the oligarchy to do what they want without interference from the 99 percenters. Whites are being harassed into sending their children to these chaos factories.

    Steve Job's widow is a majority stakeholder in The Atlantic, a leading promotor of diversity chaos. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are heavily involved in education in the US, Africa, and India because they want to control minority birth rates and make money selling software to public schools. Conservatives like Betsy Devos and the Walton Family pour money into charter schools because they want a compliant workforce and they want to privatize education. The Marva Collins hoax implemented by CBS was a short-lived attempt by conservatives to defund public school education. The easiest public schools to shut down and turn into charter schools are the black-run ones.

    I believe Krueger and Dale did a follow-up study published about eleven years later where they showed similar outcomes for people who applied to a more selective school, but were rejected, and attended a lower selectivity school. So in this case the finding was simply that, regardless of admission, students merely having the chutzpah to apply to more selective schools had subsequent earnings on par with enrollees.

    Read More
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  106. @advancedatheist
    Just as a blue-sky transhumanist speculation, suppose we had a technological means to turn dumb kids from dumb populations into smart kids, and it didn't work on adults. How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children's transformation into something they don't understand or appreciate?

    How do you think the dumb parents would react to their children’s transformation into something they don’t understand or appreciate?

    In the same way you think about the existence of God.

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  107. Alden says:
    @Discordiax
    Speculation on why Puerto Rican schools suck, even taking into account student quality: language barrier.

    Mediocre to bad schools in the US still have the ability to use a wealth of English-language materials--textbooks, books on teaching, etc. I don't know that there's the same body of easily accessible stuff in Spanish. (Maybe there is, there are hundreds of millions of Spanish speakers, the normal amount of whom send their kids to schools.)

    Do Puerto Rican schools measure up to Latin American standards?

    I’m sure the book publishers of Spain and Latin American Countries would be thrilled to make more money selling books and materials to Puerto Rico.

    Of course the funds might have been diverted to the bank accounts of the school administrators.

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  108. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Our local Catholic high school had countless Protestant kids, 4 Jewish ones, and probably a few atheists and agnostics, because the public school was such a mess.

    Unfortunately, NY's Board of Regents has made the Education major (or at least some credits in the College of Education) required for all schools, which means the private and parochial schools are now staffed by people as poorly-trained as the public ones.

    Schools of Education are the devil’s nursery. They should be gotten rid of.

    “Education” should not be a major. It should be a trade learned via apprenticeship or a vo tech style training program after one has become an appropriate SME to teach middle or high school or after a normal school prep for elementary teachers.

    High school science and math teachers should have a BS in a hard science, engineering or math, English and social studies, history, etc a BA or BFA in a suitable subject plus either be a military veteran or have worked for a private employer for a certain amount of time in a capacity befitting a college graduate.

    And making former military drill sergeants into assistant or associate principals, with some additional education if necessary (they have GI Bill VA benefits, right?) is a very good idea indeed.

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    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Amen and amen. The worst teachers are those who've learned all sorts of fancy theories about PRESENTING the material to children, but nothing about the subject itself.
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  109. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Paul Murphy
    I am afraid that this may be because the majority of teachers have much more in common with dull students than with bright ones.

    Every kid knows that teachers can’t be very smart because as grown-ups they’re still in school. They rank above only correctional officers, who put themselves in prison for thirty years.

    In all seriousness, by the time I was probably twelve I knew that with a few definite exceptions, most teachers were dunderheads. And I went to public schools, but ones that were definitely above average both for the upscale suburban area and nationally. The scion of a certain very famous beer fortune was allowed to attend the same high school I did, so it couldn’t have been held in too much contempt. (He was in the news recently for something or other).

    The ones who were good I still remember fondly: they did teach me a few things.

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  110. Marty T says:
    @TG
    Indeed. But.

    Parents may not be as stupid as you think. It's just that instead of selecting a school for its pedagogical excellence, they may be selecting schools based on class. That is, they want their kids to rub elbows with, and make friends with and develop contacts and social skills with and even maybe marry, other kids who come from wealth and power.

    In NYC kids who come from wealth and power go to private school, not Stuyvesant. But at least the Stuyvesant kids are smart.

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  111. @Anonymous
    Schools of Education are the devil's nursery. They should be gotten rid of.

    "Education" should not be a major. It should be a trade learned via apprenticeship or a vo tech style training program after one has become an appropriate SME to teach middle or high school or after a normal school prep for elementary teachers.

    High school science and math teachers should have a BS in a hard science, engineering or math, English and social studies, history, etc a BA or BFA in a suitable subject plus either be a military veteran or have worked for a private employer for a certain amount of time in a capacity befitting a college graduate.

    And making former military drill sergeants into assistant or associate principals, with some additional education if necessary (they have GI Bill VA benefits, right?) is a very good idea indeed.

    Amen and amen. The worst teachers are those who’ve learned all sorts of fancy theories about PRESENTING the material to children, but nothing about the subject itself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I think at the secondary level, subject training's a must, though you can get by with training in an adjacent subject. In dealing with younger children, mode of presentation is more important.

    If you've mastered elementary algebra, speak and write grammatical English, and have a secure understanding of the fundamentals of American history, geography, and civics, you've got what should be taught to elementary schoolchildren. This knowledge set can be assessed through competitive examinations without requiring degrees.

    One large problem in many teacher's colleges is that instruction in methods is haphazard and much time is wasted on social and political indoctrination or on material ancillary to the task of training youth in the mechanics of the day-to-day work of a classroom teacher. We had at one time in our circle a serious (rank-and-file) scholar ensconced on a teacher-training faculty. There was nothing grossly wrong with this woman's teaching and writing. It's just that she was and is a historian and belongs on an arts and sciences faculty, not in a teacher-training faculty.
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  112. Art Deco says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Amen and amen. The worst teachers are those who've learned all sorts of fancy theories about PRESENTING the material to children, but nothing about the subject itself.

    I think at the secondary level, subject training’s a must, though you can get by with training in an adjacent subject. In dealing with younger children, mode of presentation is more important.

    If you’ve mastered elementary algebra, speak and write grammatical English, and have a secure understanding of the fundamentals of American history, geography, and civics, you’ve got what should be taught to elementary schoolchildren. This knowledge set can be assessed through competitive examinations without requiring degrees.

    One large problem in many teacher’s colleges is that instruction in methods is haphazard and much time is wasted on social and political indoctrination or on material ancillary to the task of training youth in the mechanics of the day-to-day work of a classroom teacher. We had at one time in our circle a serious (rank-and-file) scholar ensconced on a teacher-training faculty. There was nothing grossly wrong with this woman’s teaching and writing. It’s just that she was and is a historian and belongs on an arts and sciences faculty, not in a teacher-training faculty.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Mode of presentation can become a distraction from what needs to be learned. I had a 5th-grade teacher who was so focused on group dynamics and trying to make things Fun, she never noticed that she herself could not read with full comprehension prose on a 4th-grade level nor do arithmetic on a 3rd. When the kids inevitably corrected her, she angrily replied that "this would be fun if we wanted it to."
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  113. keuril says:
    @Travis
    i suspect a borderline student who did Not attend Stuyvesant may find it easier to get into a top 25 University. A friend of mine went to Stuyvesant and attended Rutgers, he scored above 1400 on his SAT back in 1986. His sister went to the local Public School in Queens and attended Yale despite having a lower SAT score but she finished near the top of her high school class while her brother was in the middle of the pack at Stuyvesant.

    My friend failed to finish in the top of his class at Stuyvesant , and those who did were accepted to Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia etc...Thus he was competing against his fellow Stuyvesant classmates to get into the top colleges. The top schools do not want to select 3 students from Stuyvesant...thus attending Stuyvesant probably hurt his opportunity of being accepted in a top 20 school. Would have been better for him to have finished in the top 10 of his High School and not attended Stuyvesant.

    i suspect a borderline student who did Not attend Stuyvesant may find it easier to get into a top 25 University… sister went to the local Public School in Queens and attended Yale despite having a lower SAT score but she finished near the top of her high school class

    “Top 25” and “Yale” are two separate groups, even though “Yale” belongs to both. I think being a borderline student at Stuyvesant will improve one’s chances at getting into a Top 25 school, but it will be considerably more difficult to get into a Top 4 school (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford—HYPS), simply because each school will have a limit (usually in the high single digits or low double digits) on admits from a given high school, regardless of how selective the high school is.

    This applies not only to elite public high schools like Stuyvesant, but also to elite boarding schools like Exeter and Andover. For this reason, Exeter’s policy is that any student admitted Early Action (i.e., non-binding) to a college with an admit rate under 10% (this would apply only to HYPS, Chicago, MIT, and CalTech) will not be allowed to apply to any other colleges during the Regular Decision period. This policy—a top-down-enforced embodiment of the school’s “non sibi” (not for oneself) motto—ensures that the very top students, who might be admitted Early Action in December to, say, Harvard, are not allowed to showboat by applying to all the other Ivies during Regular Decision (results out at end of March). Doing so would lessen the chances of admission of other extremely worthy Exeter applicants to those other Ivies.

    But once you get beyond HYPS, there are not many colleges who will deny an applicant because too many other applicants from the same high school have been accepted. And at the lower end of the Top 25, they probably like the cachet of Stuyvesant and Exeter grads, so coming out of those schools is probably a net positive.

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  114. @Art Deco
    I think at the secondary level, subject training's a must, though you can get by with training in an adjacent subject. In dealing with younger children, mode of presentation is more important.

    If you've mastered elementary algebra, speak and write grammatical English, and have a secure understanding of the fundamentals of American history, geography, and civics, you've got what should be taught to elementary schoolchildren. This knowledge set can be assessed through competitive examinations without requiring degrees.

    One large problem in many teacher's colleges is that instruction in methods is haphazard and much time is wasted on social and political indoctrination or on material ancillary to the task of training youth in the mechanics of the day-to-day work of a classroom teacher. We had at one time in our circle a serious (rank-and-file) scholar ensconced on a teacher-training faculty. There was nothing grossly wrong with this woman's teaching and writing. It's just that she was and is a historian and belongs on an arts and sciences faculty, not in a teacher-training faculty.

    Mode of presentation can become a distraction from what needs to be learned. I had a 5th-grade teacher who was so focused on group dynamics and trying to make things Fun, she never noticed that she herself could not read with full comprehension prose on a 4th-grade level nor do arithmetic on a 3rd. When the kids inevitably corrected her, she angrily replied that “this would be fun if we wanted it to.”

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  115. Yeah, whatever the anonymous is saying that all teachers should have degrees in their topic, is more ignorant than the teachers and has no idea what knowledge is required of teachers. They have more than enough knowledge to teach their subjects. In fact, we’ve made the standards too high in elementary school.

    And anyone who brags that he knows he was smarter than his teachers or that his teachers are all “dunderheads” is just a jackass. First, it’s almost certainly not true. Odds are that the teachers were roughly as smart as he or she was. And if he or she was actually smarter, then he or she is probably 2SD IQ, and really? That’s the best you can do?

    We do have a scarcity of teachers who can meet the qualifications in states like California (where the standards are extremely high), but the teachers who end up teaching without the qualifications aren’t teaching kids who would otherwise be reading Shakespeare or taking derivatives with a different teacher.

    And the best way to increase teacher scarcity, thus allowing principals to dump low performers without fear, would be reduce services, specifically ending special ed, making K-12 citizen only, and end the ELL nonsense in which over half the students tagged ELL are citizens, and a third of high school ELL students are 3rd generation.

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