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How Diverse Are the English?

Anthropology blogger Dienekes puts the big new genetic study of the British in perspective

British origins (Leslie et al. 2015)

The authors write:

Consistent with earlier studies of the UK, population structure within the PoBI collection is very limited. The average of the pairwise FST estimates between each of the 30 sample collection districts is 0.0007, with a maximum of 0.003 (Supplementary Table 1).

These are extremely small differences in the European (let alone global) context. So, the British are, overall, a very homogeneous population. This is what led the researchers to use methods such as ChromoPainter/ fineStructure/ Globetrotter that can squeeze out fine-scale population structure by exploiting linkage disequilibrium. Thus, the authors are able to detect 17 main clusters of the British.

Most of the clusters are geographical, but some span different regions (e.g., the “yellow circle” cluster). The elephant in the room is the “red square” cluster which spans Central/South England. The authors write:

There is a single large cluster (red squares) that covers most of central and southern England and extends up the east coast. Notably, even at the finest level of differentiation returned by fineSTRUCTURE (53 clusters), this cluster remains largely intact and contains almost half the individuals (1,006) in our study.

So the huge area of red on the map covering most of England except the blue old industrial Midlands and the Scottish border represents a group that aren’t worth further subdividing at current levels of technology and expertise.

The Romans introduced roads and public order, and then the English achieved large scale political unification by the 900s. They didn’t like inbreeding all that much and they didn’t like arranged marriages. Public order making it safe to travel and an aversion to clannishness makes in the long run for a relatively genetically homogeneous population, which in turn, in the case of the English, makes for a world-conquering one in whose language you’re reading this.

 
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  1. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    OT:

    Sadly it looks like Razib Khan has just been erased from the NYT opinion pages.

    http://www.nytimes.com/column/razib-khan

    That has got to suck. One day you’re in, the next day your’re out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    That may have been a related to this Gawker story which connected Razib to Steve, Takimag and Vdare:

    http://tktk.gawker.com/new-times-op-ed-writer-has-a-colorful-past-with-racist-1692187849
    , @SFG
    Gawker got him, I think.

    Too bad.

    Wish I were as accomplished as him, maybe a hemi-Jew could succeed where an Indian failed. Naah, look what happened to Norman Finkelstein.
    , @jtgw
    It looks like he was outed by Gawker:

    http://tktk.gawker.com/new-times-op-ed-writer-has-a-colorful-past-with-racist-1692187849

    Apparently that's all it takes.
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  2. I’m sticking with the historian Thomas Carlyle who asked what had England ever been before the Normans arrived, and answered: ‘A gluttonous race of Jutes and Angles capable of no grand combinations, lumbering about in pot-bellied equanimity;not dreaming of heroic toil and silence and endurance such as leads to the high places of the Universe’. Without their pretty much homogenous Norman aristocracy (which truly brought about political and military unification–how else are a few thousand adventurers able to take over a country of more than a million), England is probably invaded by the Capetians in the early 13th Century and becomes an offshoot of France. Ironically, without meaning to, of course, the Normans preserved English for all of us to read today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Small numbers of warriors have taken over large populations throughout history. Because throughout most of history, most of the people of large populations were subsistence farmers who did not engage in fighting and were busy working just to keep themselves alive. They didn't face the small groups of invading warriors. The small groups of invading warriors fought the small numbers of people that comprised the ruling government, not the wider population.

    Mass mobilization and political awakening is a modern phenomenon.
    , @Taco

    I’m sticking with the historian Thomas Carlyle who asked what had England ever been before the Normans arrived
     
    I don't think it was the Normans themselves who bequeathed greatness upon England. Most of it comes from the nearly thousand year eugenic program which was English society from the Norman invasion until the industrial revolution. Part of this is certainly due to Norman genes, but if that was the biggest part of it, then the Viking homelands, with a much higher percentage of Norman stock, would've come to dominate the world, no?
  3. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anon
    OT:

    Sadly it looks like Razib Khan has just been erased from the NYT opinion pages.

    http://www.nytimes.com/column/razib-khan

    That has got to suck. One day you're in, the next day your're out.

    That may have been a related to this Gawker story which connected Razib to Steve, Takimag and Vdare:

    http://tktk.gawker.com/new-times-op-ed-writer-has-a-colorful-past-with-racist-1692187849

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What are these kids, 20 years old? Never heard of gnxp.com?
  4. @anon
    OT:

    Sadly it looks like Razib Khan has just been erased from the NYT opinion pages.

    http://www.nytimes.com/column/razib-khan

    That has got to suck. One day you're in, the next day your're out.

    Gawker got him, I think.

    Too bad.

    Wish I were as accomplished as him, maybe a hemi-Jew could succeed where an Indian failed. Naah, look what happened to Norman Finkelstein.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ed
    Gawker didn't do him in, Jamelle thinks any debate about blacks and intelligence is strictly off limits.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jbouie/status/578273519093579776

    I would have thought the Times would have known about Razib's race writings at least. The irony is I doubt any of his race writings would have seen the light of day at the Times so what's thebig deal?
  5. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @OsRazor
    I'm sticking with the historian Thomas Carlyle who asked what had England ever been before the Normans arrived, and answered: 'A gluttonous race of Jutes and Angles capable of no grand combinations, lumbering about in pot-bellied equanimity;not dreaming of heroic toil and silence and endurance such as leads to the high places of the Universe'. Without their pretty much homogenous Norman aristocracy (which truly brought about political and military unification--how else are a few thousand adventurers able to take over a country of more than a million), England is probably invaded by the Capetians in the early 13th Century and becomes an offshoot of France. Ironically, without meaning to, of course, the Normans preserved English for all of us to read today.

    Small numbers of warriors have taken over large populations throughout history. Because throughout most of history, most of the people of large populations were subsistence farmers who did not engage in fighting and were busy working just to keep themselves alive. They didn’t face the small groups of invading warriors. The small groups of invading warriors fought the small numbers of people that comprised the ruling government, not the wider population.

    Mass mobilization and political awakening is a modern phenomenon.

    Read More
  6. @anon
    OT:

    Sadly it looks like Razib Khan has just been erased from the NYT opinion pages.

    http://www.nytimes.com/column/razib-khan

    That has got to suck. One day you're in, the next day your're out.

    It looks like he was outed by Gawker:

    http://tktk.gawker.com/new-times-op-ed-writer-has-a-colorful-past-with-racist-1692187849

    Apparently that’s all it takes.

    Read More
  7. @OsRazor
    I'm sticking with the historian Thomas Carlyle who asked what had England ever been before the Normans arrived, and answered: 'A gluttonous race of Jutes and Angles capable of no grand combinations, lumbering about in pot-bellied equanimity;not dreaming of heroic toil and silence and endurance such as leads to the high places of the Universe'. Without their pretty much homogenous Norman aristocracy (which truly brought about political and military unification--how else are a few thousand adventurers able to take over a country of more than a million), England is probably invaded by the Capetians in the early 13th Century and becomes an offshoot of France. Ironically, without meaning to, of course, the Normans preserved English for all of us to read today.

    I’m sticking with the historian Thomas Carlyle who asked what had England ever been before the Normans arrived

    I don’t think it was the Normans themselves who bequeathed greatness upon England. Most of it comes from the nearly thousand year eugenic program which was English society from the Norman invasion until the industrial revolution. Part of this is certainly due to Norman genes, but if that was the biggest part of it, then the Viking homelands, with a much higher percentage of Norman stock, would’ve come to dominate the world, no?

    Read More
  8. There is some phenotype diversity among the English. Ringo Starr for example does not look like the typical Nordic English WASP. He looks like he could pass for a Jew or an Italian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    And Ringo's the most English Beatle, by ancestry.
    , @whahae
    Tehre are plenty of blonde, blue-eyed Italians. So "pass for Italian" doesn't mean much. Italy is a geographical expression.
    , @D. K.
    'Ringo Starr'-- a.k.a. Richard Starkey-- will (with luck) turn 75 years old, this coming July 7th!

    (July 7th also would have been the 80th birthday of one Katherine Genovese-- a.k.a. 'Kitty'. Her killer, Winston Moseley, turned 80 years old, earlier this month, and is supposedly the longest-serving inmate in the history of the State of New York-- fifty-one years, as of this past Wednesday afternoon, discounting the few days when he escaped, in Buffalo, in 1968, and raped a couple of more women!?!)

    In this emerging age of neobolshevism (a.k.a., "Cultural Marxism" or, more simply, "P.C."), I often think of what Richard Starkey, playing 'Ringo Starr', in the Beatles' second feature film, "Help" (1965), said to the High Priest 'Clang' (played by native-Aussie Leo McKern), in the climactic scene, on the beach, after 'Ringo' has been painted red, in preparation for his being sacrificed by the Indian cultists: "I don't subscribe to your religion!"
    , @Bill P

    There is some phenotype diversity among the English. Ringo Starr for example does not look like the typical Nordic English WASP. He looks like he could pass for a Jew or an Italian.
     
    Lots of phenotype diversity throughout the Isles. My mom's Scots Irish and dark, as is one of her brothers, but the other two brothers turned out blond. My paternal grandpa was Irish/Welsh with black hair, fair skin and blue eyes, and somehow my sister came out platinum blonde (people often asked my mother whether she was really her child). Some Welsh such as John Rhys-Davies, who played a convincing enough Arab on one occasion, are Mediterranean in their complexion, and then there are very fair Scottish redheads, tan English blondes, etc.

    That's one neat thing about the British: they are a colorful lot. It would be a shame to see that drowned in a sea of brown, wouldn't it?
  9. “So the huge area of red on the map covering most of England except the blue northeast”

    minor quip, northwest and southeast. feel free to not post this.

    Read More
  10. @Jefferson
    There is some phenotype diversity among the English. Ringo Starr for example does not look like the typical Nordic English WASP. He looks like he could pass for a Jew or an Italian.

    And Ringo’s the most English Beatle, by ancestry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    There is a YouTube video of a White House concert in honor of Paul McCartney. At the end Barry O delivered a speech about a "young Englishman" who came to America in 1964, conquering its heart. Paul did not say anything about that because that's not his style. If Lennon lived to our days and got into that kind of a situation, he would have probably said something smart-assy in response, something that would have gotten him denounced by every major newspaper and banned from every official gathering for the rest of his life.
  11. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Reg Cæsar
    And Ringo's the most English Beatle, by ancestry.

    There is a YouTube video of a White House concert in honor of Paul McCartney. At the end Barry O delivered a speech about a “young Englishman” who came to America in 1964, conquering its heart. Paul did not say anything about that because that’s not his style. If Lennon lived to our days and got into that kind of a situation, he would have probably said something smart-assy in response, something that would have gotten him denounced by every major newspaper and banned from every official gathering for the rest of his life.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    If Lennon lived to our days and got into that kind of a situation, he would have probably said something smart-assy in response…
     
    Lennon, believe it or not, was schooled in the rules of American football by Ronald Reagan. They got along famously.
  12. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I was taught in school that Norman=France but Wiki says that is wrong. William the Conqueror fought the kings of France. He was descended from Norsemen and Normandy was their base of operations.

    His army was filled with foreigners. Sound familiar?

    Read More
  13. @anon
    There is a YouTube video of a White House concert in honor of Paul McCartney. At the end Barry O delivered a speech about a "young Englishman" who came to America in 1964, conquering its heart. Paul did not say anything about that because that's not his style. If Lennon lived to our days and got into that kind of a situation, he would have probably said something smart-assy in response, something that would have gotten him denounced by every major newspaper and banned from every official gathering for the rest of his life.

    If Lennon lived to our days and got into that kind of a situation, he would have probably said something smart-assy in response…

    Lennon, believe it or not, was schooled in the rules of American football by Ronald Reagan. They got along famously.

    Read More
  14. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anon
    That may have been a related to this Gawker story which connected Razib to Steve, Takimag and Vdare:

    http://tktk.gawker.com/new-times-op-ed-writer-has-a-colorful-past-with-racist-1692187849

    What are these kids, 20 years old? Never heard of gnxp.com?

    Read More
  15. @Jefferson
    There is some phenotype diversity among the English. Ringo Starr for example does not look like the typical Nordic English WASP. He looks like he could pass for a Jew or an Italian.

    Tehre are plenty of blonde, blue-eyed Italians. So “pass for Italian” doesn’t mean much. Italy is a geographical expression.

    Read More
  16. @SFG
    Gawker got him, I think.

    Too bad.

    Wish I were as accomplished as him, maybe a hemi-Jew could succeed where an Indian failed. Naah, look what happened to Norman Finkelstein.

    Gawker didn’t do him in, Jamelle thinks any debate about blacks and intelligence is strictly off limits.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jbouie/status/578273519093579776

    I would have thought the Times would have known about Razib’s race writings at least. The irony is I doubt any of his race writings would have seen the light of day at the Times so what’s thebig deal?

    Read More
  17. Same weirdness in Albion’s Seed, “the blue old industrial Midlands” (ie Lancashire, like Yorkshire) is known as the “North” by the English and definitely not as the “Midlands”. I guess Americans are taking a perspective on the island as a whole.

    Read More
  18. @Jefferson
    There is some phenotype diversity among the English. Ringo Starr for example does not look like the typical Nordic English WASP. He looks like he could pass for a Jew or an Italian.

    ‘Ringo Starr’– a.k.a. Richard Starkey– will (with luck) turn 75 years old, this coming July 7th!

    (July 7th also would have been the 80th birthday of one Katherine Genovese– a.k.a. ‘Kitty’. Her killer, Winston Moseley, turned 80 years old, earlier this month, and is supposedly the longest-serving inmate in the history of the State of New York– fifty-one years, as of this past Wednesday afternoon, discounting the few days when he escaped, in Buffalo, in 1968, and raped a couple of more women!?!)

    In this emerging age of neobolshevism (a.k.a., “Cultural Marxism” or, more simply, “P.C.”), I often think of what Richard Starkey, playing ‘Ringo Starr’, in the Beatles’ second feature film, “Help” (1965), said to the High Priest ‘Clang’ (played by native-Aussie Leo McKern), in the climactic scene, on the beach, after ‘Ringo’ has been painted red, in preparation for his being sacrificed by the Indian cultists: “I don’t subscribe to your religion!”

    Read More
  19. “and then the English achieved large scale political unification by the 900s”: and then lost it again to the Danes. “England” was an unstable and fleeting construction until the Normans cemented it. But all the stuff about “Normans” running the country for the next thousand years is drivel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What the Normans did is establish a tax administrative unit. They wanted to tax as much an area as possible, so they did a survey:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_book
    , @Greenstalk

    But all the stuff about “Normans” running the country for the next thousand years is drivel.
     
    Of course. Everyone knows the country was run by Dutch and Germans. (The House of Orange, the House of Hanover, and the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha)
    , @conqueror's descendant
    Genetically perhaps.
    But culturally and in the national perception, it is absolutely the case.
  20. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @dearieme
    "and then the English achieved large scale political unification by the 900s": and then lost it again to the Danes. "England" was an unstable and fleeting construction until the Normans cemented it. But all the stuff about "Normans" running the country for the next thousand years is drivel.

    What the Normans did is establish a tax administrative unit. They wanted to tax as much an area as possible, so they did a survey:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_book

    Read More
  21. A good response for Britain and other European countries to “X has always been a land of immigrants” piffle when you don’t have the opportunity to debate the particulars (or even when you do): So you mean today’s immigration invasion is nothing new, Britain has always been invaded by immigrants in the past? Other invasions worked out well enough in the long run so maybe this invasion will too?

    The reason I like it is because the white nitwits who mouth “X has always been” do so in large part to convince themselves that everything is fine and dandy, and the word invasion in this context – which they would tend to reject in other contexts – forces them to confront the negatives of immigration, which they are at least vaguely aware of but push to the back of their minds.

    Read More
  22. @Jefferson
    There is some phenotype diversity among the English. Ringo Starr for example does not look like the typical Nordic English WASP. He looks like he could pass for a Jew or an Italian.

    There is some phenotype diversity among the English. Ringo Starr for example does not look like the typical Nordic English WASP. He looks like he could pass for a Jew or an Italian.

    Lots of phenotype diversity throughout the Isles. My mom’s Scots Irish and dark, as is one of her brothers, but the other two brothers turned out blond. My paternal grandpa was Irish/Welsh with black hair, fair skin and blue eyes, and somehow my sister came out platinum blonde (people often asked my mother whether she was really her child). Some Welsh such as John Rhys-Davies, who played a convincing enough Arab on one occasion, are Mediterranean in their complexion, and then there are very fair Scottish redheads, tan English blondes, etc.

    That’s one neat thing about the British: they are a colorful lot. It would be a shame to see that drowned in a sea of brown, wouldn’t it?

    Read More
  23. Anybody know if they have been able to tease out the Norse genetic component from the closely-related Anglo-Saxon/Jutish component in the British people?

    Read More
  24. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Richie, the only blue-eyed Beatle, was the most English of the Fab Four, t’others have substantial Irish roots. George and Paul were both baptised RC.

    Read More
  25. @dearieme
    "and then the English achieved large scale political unification by the 900s": and then lost it again to the Danes. "England" was an unstable and fleeting construction until the Normans cemented it. But all the stuff about "Normans" running the country for the next thousand years is drivel.

    But all the stuff about “Normans” running the country for the next thousand years is drivel.

    Of course. Everyone knows the country was run by Dutch and Germans. (The House of Orange, the House of Hanover, and the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha)

    Read More
  26. @dearieme
    "and then the English achieved large scale political unification by the 900s": and then lost it again to the Danes. "England" was an unstable and fleeting construction until the Normans cemented it. But all the stuff about "Normans" running the country for the next thousand years is drivel.

    Genetically perhaps.
    But culturally and in the national perception, it is absolutely the case.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    "in the national perception, it is absolutely the case": what on earth does that mean?
  27. The colours used in the map were not chosen to indicate genetic closeness. From the cladogram it can be seen that the blue triangles and circles are in fact very close (genetically) to the red squares, so the clusters of blue adjacent to areas of red do not represent any great genetic contrast.

    It is interesting to see the contrasting ways in which this study has been reported in the media. Some have emphasised that the Anglo-Saxon incomers did not totally annihilate the ‘Celts’ (which nobody has believed for many years) while others have emphasised that they really do account for a substantial proportion of English ancestry (contrary to the views of many recent writers on the subject). As an English ‘Anglo-Saxon’ I am mildly pleased by the results. At least we’re not a bunch of bloody Welsh.

    It is also interesting that some commentators have described the Anglo-Saxons as ‘immigrants’ rather than ‘invaders’, implying a lack of violence or oppression. Tell that to Gildas. In the earliest Anglo-Saxon laws the words for ‘slave’ and ‘Briton’ are the same, which tells its own story.

    Read More
  28. The red area of England represents the lowlands. Devon, Cornwall and the blue and white areas in northern England are upland regions, as are most of Wales and Scotland.

    Read More
  29. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    It looks like those Scots-Irish, Borderers, border reviers or whatever they should be called actually are genetically somewhat distinct, to no great surprise. Maybe history has a real effect on genes, huh? Who knew?

    Read More
  30. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Many years, probably decades, ago, I glanced through a PhD dissertation on some obscure topic relating to something such as a comparison of the evolution of legal practice in Britain and France, a data-driven lets-dig-through-all-the-old-court-cases approach.

    A quote that jumped out at me (perhaps from the abstract) that has stuck with me was essentially that the defining characteristic of British history that made it significantly different than that of France (and the rest of the West) was simply its length. He didn’t mean that literally of course. What he meant was how long Shire (County) governments had operated without significant interruption (invasion, disaster, financial collapse, revolution), compared to the average operational length of similar units elsewhere. Keeping the records, dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s, and plodding on. The length of the maintained and thorough written record.

    There’s a lot to be said for time-on-task.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    "the defining characteristic of British history .... was simply its length": the only seriously old border in W Europe is the Scottish/English one.
  31. @anonymous
    Many years, probably decades, ago, I glanced through a PhD dissertation on some obscure topic relating to something such as a comparison of the evolution of legal practice in Britain and France, a data-driven lets-dig-through-all-the-old-court-cases approach.

    A quote that jumped out at me (perhaps from the abstract) that has stuck with me was essentially that the defining characteristic of British history that made it significantly different than that of France (and the rest of the West) was simply its length. He didn't mean that literally of course. What he meant was how long Shire (County) governments had operated without significant interruption (invasion, disaster, financial collapse, revolution), compared to the average operational length of similar units elsewhere. Keeping the records, dotting the i's and crossing the t's, and plodding on. The length of the maintained and thorough written record.

    There's a lot to be said for time-on-task.

    “the defining characteristic of British history …. was simply its length”: the only seriously old border in W Europe is the Scottish/English one.

    Read More
  32. @conqueror's descendant
    Genetically perhaps.
    But culturally and in the national perception, it is absolutely the case.

    “in the national perception, it is absolutely the case”: what on earth does that mean?

    Read More
  33. I am English and I am and am not surprised by these findings. Britain is an extremely class-conscious society and those classes must have some kind of genetic basis because you can tell people apart just by how they look. It’s the same with accent. Differences that are imperceptible to an outsider are very obvious to a local. Scotland runs a parallel, but even more suffocating class system. They just dress it up as tradition.

    New Zealand is similar, but the class system has had less time to become entrenched. Still, the kids at private schools are perceptibly different from those in deile one schools even accounting for the ethnic disparity.

    The general porkiness of the lower orders can be ascribed to poor diet. The differences in colouring and facial features cannot.

    I lived in Japan for a long time and I can sometimes tell Japanese people apart by class just by looking at them. But the differences seem alot less marked.

    Read More
  34. […] world. England in particular had a highly individualistic culture, likely due to ease of travel and acceptance of outbreeding. Combined with their position as an island kingdom, they had some competitive advantages in an age […]

    Read More

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