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From the New York Times news section:

What Reparations for Slavery Might Look Like in 2019

The idea of economic amends for past injustices and persistent disparities is getting renewed attention. Here are some formulas for achieving the aim.

By Patricia Cohen
May 23, 2019

… For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents. It is this cumulative effect that justifies the payment of reparations to descendants of slaves long dead, supporters say. …

After all, there couldn’t possibly be any other explanations for this gap.

Ta-Nehisi Coates has spoken!

Taking account of compounding interest and inflation, Mr. Darity has put the present value at $2.6 trillion. Assuming roughly 30 million descendants of ex-slaves, he concluded it worked out to about $80,000 a person.

To get a sense of the scale, consider that the United States budget this year is $4.7 trillion.

Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls. The return of the racial wealth gap would then be used to demand another, bigger reparations handout, ad infinitum.

Is the Reparations Debate intended to torpedo the anti-reparations Bernie Sanders campaign for the Democratic nomination?

Sanders has thought really hard over the years about what’s the maximum leftist economic platform that could possibly get to 270 Electoral Votes. And Reparations definitely isn’t part of that platform. But why should leftists listen to Bernie when they can listen to Ta-Nehisi?

 
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  1. Eighty-year-old WWII vet thanked for defeating actual fascism. Oh no, wait, he had a milkshake thrown at him because he voted according to his beliefs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/23/army-veteran-attacked-milkshake-outside-polling-station-wearing/

    • Replies: @fnn
    That's pretty young for a WW2 vet, so he might have been oppressing Third World colonials during his service and therefore deserved what he got.
    , @anon
    He would've been seven at the conclusion of WWII. I know there are child soldiers in Africa, but I wasn't aware that the Brits were drafting seven-year-olds to fight the Nazis.
    The article actually says he joined paratroopers in 1960, but perhaps he was already a 15-year Army veteran by then.
    , @BenKenobi
    Of course further down the article they elaborate how the veteran in question can’t be a racist because he married a Jamaican.
    , @anon
    My favorite line from that article:

    The old soldier, who has also published two novels on a military theme - They Stood in the Door and They Stayed a Soldier
     
    I wonder if the guy who threw the milkshake feels bad, now that he knows the old soldier was hip to proper transgender pronoun usage before it was mandatory.
    , @LondonBob
    That people in WW2 were fighting fascism would have been news to them. British soldiers believed they were fighting for Britain and its interests. Anyway the word 'fascist' was adopted by the Comintern instead of 'Nazism' because 'Nazism' tended to remind people of the Nazi-Soviet pact.
    , @Jack D
    It's funny how in our mental profile an 80 year old vet must be a WWII vet but of course as the other pointed out, WWII vets nowadays are much older - even the youngest are upwards of 90. 80 is even too young for Korean vets. 80 will soon be a typical age for Vietnam vets.

    The median Vietnam vet is 69 today but many are older (and many have died of old age). The big buildup of US troops started in '65 and the average grunt was 19 (much younger than in WWII when they took everyone) so the average enlisted man sent in '65 would be 73 now, but the average Vietnam era junior officer would be pushing 80.

  2. Genetic analysis show that over one third of African-American men have a white male ancestor from Civil War times. Will they pay reparations to themselves?

    • Agree: Mr. Grey
    • Replies: @Cato
    According to 23andMe, I have slightly less than 1% Sub-Saharan African ancestry. Do I get slightly less than 1% of the standard reparations amount?
    , @Travis
    100% of African-Americans have white ancestors
    the average African-American is over 20% white
    10% of Black Americans are more than 50% white.

    "The average African-American is 24 percent European. Now think about that. And DNA companies in the United States will tell you that they have never tested an African-American who is 100 percent from sub-Saharan Africa. "- Harvard historian Henry Louis Gates. https://www.npr.org/2019/01/21/686531998/historian-henry-louis-gates-jr-on-dna-testing-and-finding-his-own-roots
    , @ATBOTL
    Over 90% do. You are confusing direct male lineage for male ancestors in general.
  3. For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents. It is this cumulative effect that justifies the payment of reparations to descendants of slaves long dead, supporters say.

    In English class, this was called a non sequitur.

    • Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin
    Non sequitur, Latin for "It does not follow," means "I enjoy 'white privilege' today."

    (/sarcasm)

    , @OEMIKITLOB
    Stop making sense. If you are white, you're even more guilty and reprehensible for showing-off your white privilege of critical-thinking skills.
  4. As part Neanderthal I demand reparations from the pure blooded Homosapiens who murdered my ancestors and stole Eurasia from us!

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Absolutely, you deserve it - those bastards and their Homo privilege!

    Before we get that far, though, we should all look into the Peak Stupidity reparations plan. Everyone will be made hole.

    , @Anon
    One has to admire the willingness of Jews to continuously light matches in a gunpowder factory, even as the fine dust starts to diffuse throughout its air and the dangerous-condition alarms start to sound. Its almost like they want it to explode. Now why would that be??

    They are also the West's seemingly self-appointed accountants, ever trying to move money from Whites to satisfy invented debts ostensibly held by themselves or, lets be honest, literally anyone else.

  5. Do we deduct for reparations already paid: EBT, Section 8, AA, prison food/housing, et al? (yea right)

    • Agree: Jan Assman, 95Theses
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    After those deductions they owe us how much per capita?
    , @Stephen Paul Foster
    "[R]eparations already paid: EBT, Section 8, AA, prison food/housing..."

    Plus, the cost of rebuilding Watts, Detroit, Washington DC et al after they burned them down.

    See: http://fosterspeak.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-detroit-riots-of-1967-and-its.html
    , @nokangaroos
    Quick back-of-napkin calculation:

    Net direct cost of community to taxpayer:
    Slightly below baseline cost of armed forces, $650-700bn p/a
    $2.6T = 4 years
    "Direct cost" already includes extra police and prisons, but not affirmative action, gubmint jobs, the ruin of public education and we all know how the surcharge on "good" homes is called:
    $2.6T = friendly estimate 1.5 years

    For Chrissake TAKE THE OFFER, it´s a mézie!
  6. Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Whether for whites or others, I have always found this argument annoying. Are white descendants of pre-Civil War Americans the only people in the whole freaking world who should be blamed for the sins of our ancestors? I'm guilty of shit that happened over 150 years ago, but Italians whose ancestors came here more recently are innocent of Italian fascism and colonialism? Saudis who came here 5 years ago are innocent of Saudi oppression of women, gays, and religious minorities?

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else's ancestors over theirs. Moving to America doesn't magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country.
    , @Dr. X

    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?
     
    For practical purposes, they've already done that. Every white nation in the world is a welfare state paid for by income taxes on whites, and in every one of those nations nonwhites are disproportionately beneficiaries of welfare programs...
    , @LondonBob
    Whites who turned up in the US after the Civil War can't just pick choose, they have take the good and the bad. America's wealth, laws, housing, infrastructure were well established before the Civil War.
  7. To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    That's more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
    , @Chris Mallory
    Much of the South's wealth went north in Yankee knapsacks. The rest was burned in Lincoln's terrorist attack upon the Southern nation.
    , @GermanReader2
    If you really want to know the effect on slavery on the finances of American blacks, you need to compare them to their African counterparts.
    , @Anonymous

    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.
     
    Please explicate your argument. I do not understand it.
  8. Trump’s Luck.

    • Agree: slumber_j
  9. @J.Ross
    Eighty-year-old WWII vet thanked for defeating actual fascism. Oh no, wait, he had a milkshake thrown at him because he voted according to his beliefs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/23/army-veteran-attacked-milkshake-outside-polling-station-wearing/

    That’s pretty young for a WW2 vet, so he might have been oppressing Third World colonials during his service and therefore deserved what he got.

  10. @Anon
    As part Neanderthal I demand reparations from the pure blooded Homosapiens who murdered my ancestors and stole Eurasia from us!

    Absolutely, you deserve it – those bastards and their Homo privilege!

    Before we get that far, though, we should all look into the Peak Stupidity reparations plan. Everyone will be made hole.

  11. Which is why reparations would have to be permanent; recurring payments for life, quotas on school admissions, then on employment, and then employee advancement.
    Never going to happen because the beneficiary pool will expand to the whole coalition of the aggrieved. First descendants of slaves, then all people of African descent including recent immigrants whose ancestors’ only connection to slavery was selling them, then Hispanics, etc.
    So far none of the candidates have promised anything except “studying” reparations.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Reparations: Yes, but only with separation.

    You take the money and you leave the US permanently.

    Or, if you hven't reproduced, maybe you take a monthly stipend in exchange for sterilization and waiver of right to trial if credibly accused of crime.
    , @War for Blair Mountain
    That’s the underlying point of my comment that STEVE has yet to let through....”Reparations” is a monumentally toxic idea.....
  12. @KL
    Genetic analysis show that over one third of African-American men have a white male ancestor from Civil War times. Will they pay reparations to themselves?

    According to 23andMe, I have slightly less than 1% Sub-Saharan African ancestry. Do I get slightly less than 1% of the standard reparations amount?

    • Replies: @bomag

    Do I get slightly less than 1% of the standard reparations amount?
     
    Ha ha.

    A board, of the usual suspects, will be impaneled to determine who is Black for reasons of reparations. All others pay, and demonstrate proper guilt, forever.

    "If you want a vision of the future, imagine Whites paying Blacks reparations until all the Whites are gone."
  13. 2019-80=1939. Talk about a war baby!

  14. The Fed doesn’t hand out free money.

  15. @J.Ross
    Eighty-year-old WWII vet thanked for defeating actual fascism. Oh no, wait, he had a milkshake thrown at him because he voted according to his beliefs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/23/army-veteran-attacked-milkshake-outside-polling-station-wearing/

    He would’ve been seven at the conclusion of WWII. I know there are child soldiers in Africa, but I wasn’t aware that the Brits were drafting seven-year-olds to fight the Nazis.
    The article actually says he joined paratroopers in 1960, but perhaps he was already a 15-year Army veteran by then.

    • Replies: @Mr. Grey
    He could have been one of the commandos who went back in time to kill Hitler.
  16. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls. The return of the racial wealth gap would then be used to demand another, bigger reparations handout, ad infinitum.

    Right. 80k is nothing considering black spending habits. Luxury cars are typically 50k+, so more than half of the 80k would be gone almost immediately.

    Moreover, the average black thinks “reparations” means becoming a multi-millionaire at the least. That’s the lifestyle he envisions reparations would provide. If it turns out to be a paltry 80k, most of which is immediately spent away, he will be disappointed and think that he’s been cheated somehow. It will lead to further agitation.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It could boost GDP and grow the economy.
    , @Change that Matters
    How dare you, as Nipsey Hu$$le demonstrated, 80k would make a lot of mixtapes, and at $100 each could probably return over $1 million, enough to start your own clothing store and buy a strip mall and build a life for all your brothers in the Hood, even accounting for 5k on neck tattoos, may his Eritrean soul rest in peace on foreign soil.
    , @OEMIKITLOB
    Agreed. And the quoted section is exactly what would happen. Nobody with an understanding of basic economics believes a one-time payment would solve the problem. Truth be told, such a process wouldn't help many non-black's long-term either; the result would be the same. But, this isn't really about "reparations" or justice. It's just a front.
  17. Anonymous[193] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alfa158
    Which is why reparations would have to be permanent; recurring payments for life, quotas on school admissions, then on employment, and then employee advancement.
    Never going to happen because the beneficiary pool will expand to the whole coalition of the aggrieved. First descendants of slaves, then all people of African descent including recent immigrants whose ancestors’ only connection to slavery was selling them, then Hispanics, etc.
    So far none of the candidates have promised anything except “studying” reparations.

    Reparations: Yes, but only with separation.

    You take the money and you leave the US permanently.

    Or, if you hven’t reproduced, maybe you take a monthly stipend in exchange for sterilization and waiver of right to trial if credibly accused of crime.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'Reparations: Yes, but only with separation.

    You take the money and you leave the US permanently.

    Or, if you hven’t reproduced, maybe you take a monthly stipend in exchange for sterilization and waiver of right to trial if credibly accused of crime.'

    It's good to see there's someone with a statesman-like ability to compromise and seek a middle path.

    Actually, I say offer them the eighty thousand to spend and have a party -- if they agree to deportation to West Africa in six months. They dump the money back into the economy, and then off they go.

    The beauty of it is that it'll disproportionately be the worst of the black population that will take the money. The ones left won't be so bad -- more your exasperatingly incompetent bank officer types.
    , @William Badwhite
    It also has to be every one of them or none of them.
  18. Yes, the Democrats really are getting their ideas from Ta-Nehisi Coates these days. Committing to reparations — even just committing to create a committee to “explore” it — would be electoral suicide in the general, but the Democratic nominee will likely do it. Trump will have a field day with it.

    • Replies: @J S Raggmann
    That's Ta-HissyFit Coates.

    Whoa, I just realized that when Ta-HissyFit uses the European origin name "Coates", he is committing the grievous Cultural Marxist sin of cultural appropriation, or more correctly, cultural expropriation.
  19. Just like holocaust reparations, it’ll never end. What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles? How much is that per Jewish victim? Probably far more than any would have been worth, except for a Rothschild, and they seem to have made it through the war ok.

    Is there enough money, land, and perks to pay off blacks? They are far more numerous than Jews. Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.

    • Replies: @International Jew

    What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?
     
    Doesn't look like you bothered to do any research.

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that's about $6 billion in today's dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.
    , @Digital Samizdat

    Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.
     
    And think of how the existence of slavery negatively affected the wages of poor whites. Demand for them was artificially lower--hence, so were their wages--because the planters had an ample supply of slaves already. Abraham Lincoln himself once made this point in a debate with Stephen Douglas:

    "Labor is like any other commodity in the market—increase the demand for it and you increase the price of it. Reduce the supply of black labor by colonizing the black laborer out of the country, and by precisely so much you increase the demand for and wages of white labor."
     
    (We can also see from this what Lincoln's original position of the freedmen was: they should be repatriated to Africa.)
    , @Anonymous

    Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.
     
    Blacks have benefited from slavery. Do they have better lives than they would have had in Africa? Do some owe their very existence to slavery?

    Therefore, if anyone should pay, you should pay.
  20. @J.Ross
    Eighty-year-old WWII vet thanked for defeating actual fascism. Oh no, wait, he had a milkshake thrown at him because he voted according to his beliefs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/23/army-veteran-attacked-milkshake-outside-polling-station-wearing/

    Of course further down the article they elaborate how the veteran in question can’t be a racist because he married a Jamaican.

  21. @Alfa158
    Which is why reparations would have to be permanent; recurring payments for life, quotas on school admissions, then on employment, and then employee advancement.
    Never going to happen because the beneficiary pool will expand to the whole coalition of the aggrieved. First descendants of slaves, then all people of African descent including recent immigrants whose ancestors’ only connection to slavery was selling them, then Hispanics, etc.
    So far none of the candidates have promised anything except “studying” reparations.

    That’s the underlying point of my comment that STEVE has yet to let through….”Reparations” is a monumentally toxic idea…..

  22. @Jon
    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.

    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad


    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.
     
    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
     
    No it is not.

    It's a bunch of different things:
    -- Lower human capital overall.
    -- Climate burden
    -- Disease burden
    -- Resource differential for industrialization (easier access to coal, iron, easier transport of same)
    -- Path dependence--north started on the industrial path, generally easier to continue it, vs. existing cotton economy

    War destruction itself is pretty transient and was highly uneven across the South from substantial to completely non-existent.
    , @jon

    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
     
    I mentioned "since the Civil War" in my post, but it's not like the South's economy was rocking before the war. They were already well behind, despite all that "stolen wealth" that the slaves provided. Here is a site I found with a bunch of stats/graphs showing the discrepancy:

    http://www.rtimager.org/north-vs-south-economy-civil-war/
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe

    OilcanFloyd
     
    I feel like you're the kind of fellow who enjoys an occasional game of Hucka-Bucka-Beanstalk.
  23. The return of the racial wealth gap would then be used to demand another, bigger reparations handout, ad infinitum.

    Yep, just like all immigration legislation just begets demands for more immigration reform (reform just means expand the numbers allowed in) to fix the “broken” system.

  24. Anonymous[313] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls. The return of the racial wealth gap would then be used to demand another, bigger reparations handout, ad infinitum.
     
    Right. 80k is nothing considering black spending habits. Luxury cars are typically 50k+, so more than half of the 80k would be gone almost immediately.

    Moreover, the average black thinks "reparations" means becoming a multi-millionaire at the least. That's the lifestyle he envisions reparations would provide. If it turns out to be a paltry 80k, most of which is immediately spent away, he will be disappointed and think that he's been cheated somehow. It will lead to further agitation.

    It could boost GDP and grow the economy.

  25. Taking account of compounding interest and inflation, Mr. Darity has put the present value at $2.6 trillion. Assuming roughly 30 million descendants of ex-slaves, he concluded it worked out to about $80,000 a person.

    Quite a bargain, if they all have to go back to Africa. Otherwise – no – they will infinitely ask for more.

  26. Not so slightly off topic:

    The Shinnecock Native Americans(middle age overweight type 2 diabetic Blacks)….Democratic Party Voting Bloc squares off with wealthy South-East Hampton Democratic Party Donors over the THE GIANT PERMANENT PLASMA SCREEN BILLBOARD…..

  27. Ok, I have said this before. Form a Commission for Reparations. Only AAs can be on the commission. Blacks have to come up with their own spokes people to be on the Commission.Determine who gets to nominate and vote for Commission menbers, actually have to be descendents of slaves in the USA. (Opps no Barrack or Holder) Check back in five years and see how the are doing with the first step.

    • LOL: jon
  28. @Jon
    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.

    Much of the South’s wealth went north in Yankee knapsacks. The rest was burned in Lincoln’s terrorist attack upon the Southern nation.

  29. Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls. The return of the racial wealth gap would then be used to demand another, bigger reparations handout, ad infinitum.

    Reparations today, reparations tomorrow, reparations forever.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace%27s_1963_Inaugural_Address

  30. Coates knows more than Bernie. Reparations is a huge vote winner. Every single non White votes for Harris three times each, and every White single chick will vote for Harris thinking they are honorary non Whites and it will only hit their natural enemy. Beta White males.

    Momentum counts and anti White sells like crazy.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  31. I wonder if there’s still time to open a Cadillac dealership.

    • Replies: @black sea
    I wanna say one word to you . . . just one word.

    Yes sir.

    Are you listening?

    Yes I am.

    Chrome rims.


    (OK, it's two words, but whatever.)
  32. I think they misspelled repatriation!

  33. anon[412] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    Eighty-year-old WWII vet thanked for defeating actual fascism. Oh no, wait, he had a milkshake thrown at him because he voted according to his beliefs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/23/army-veteran-attacked-milkshake-outside-polling-station-wearing/

    My favorite line from that article:

    The old soldier, who has also published two novels on a military theme – They Stood in the Door and They Stayed a Soldier

    I wonder if the guy who threw the milkshake feels bad, now that he knows the old soldier was hip to proper transgender pronoun usage before it was mandatory.

  34. @Anonymous

    Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls. The return of the racial wealth gap would then be used to demand another, bigger reparations handout, ad infinitum.
     
    Right. 80k is nothing considering black spending habits. Luxury cars are typically 50k+, so more than half of the 80k would be gone almost immediately.

    Moreover, the average black thinks "reparations" means becoming a multi-millionaire at the least. That's the lifestyle he envisions reparations would provide. If it turns out to be a paltry 80k, most of which is immediately spent away, he will be disappointed and think that he's been cheated somehow. It will lead to further agitation.

    How dare you, as Nipsey Hu$$le demonstrated, 80k would make a lot of mixtapes, and at $100 each could probably return over $1 million, enough to start your own clothing store and buy a strip mall and build a life for all your brothers in the Hood, even accounting for 5k on neck tattoos, may his Eritrean soul rest in peace on foreign soil.

  35. “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute.”

  36. As I say every time this comes up, chattel slavery here didn’t hurt today’s black Americans; it was a bonanza. They would not exist without it, and — if that weren’t enough — they’re probably the most affluent black people on the planet.

    In other words, there is no damage to be repaired.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    As I say every time this comes up, chattel slavery here didn’t hurt today’s black Americans; it was a bonanza. They would not exist without it, and — if that weren’t enough — they’re probably the most affluent black people on the planet.

    In other words, there is no damage to be repaired.

     

    This is a good point. It's one thing to muse about a metaphorical debt for a "moral stain," but once you want to get down to actual dollars and cents you need to set the sentimentality aside and apply the law of remedies. The measure of damages in this exercise must account not only for the detriment suffered by the descendants of American slaves, but also the benefits accruing as a result. A sober investigation of their relative change in position is warranted.

    In the end, as Sailer says, American blacks are the poorest Americans and the richest Africans.
  37. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:

    Have none of these people ever watched Chapelle’s Show?

  38. The Democrat party must deal with the reparations “fraud”. All others are exempt.

  39. I want reparations for the 1,000 years or so that my ancestors were denied the right to loan money for interest, from the people whose ancestors were allowed to lend money for interest. Of course I only want the difference between what they would have earned lending money and what they did earn from their lucrative cow tit pulling and turnip picking quasi-oligopoly, but I’m quite certain that, with interest, it comes to a reasonable 8 quadrillion dollars or so. I’m also happy to take it in equal monthly installments paid out over the next to years.

    • LOL: ben tillman
  40. Paul says:

    Any reparations payments should start with Africans paying them. African tribes sold captured members of other tribes (with whom they were warring) into slavery rather then murdering them as is African tradition. (They did not have P.O.W. camps.) All U.S. aid to Africa should be ended until Africa pays reparations. That would also help save the American taxpayer (of any race) money. Who could be against that?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Back around 2001, the president of a West African country issued an apology for his country selling New World blacks into slavery.
    , @Anonymous

    rather then murdering them as is African tradition. (They did not have P.O.W. camps.)
     
    Citation please?
    , @Prester John
    "African tribes sold captured members of other tribes (with whom they were warring) into slavery rather then murdering them as is African tradition."

    An "inconvenient truth" as our esteemed former VP Gore might say.

    I wonder if Genius T-N Coates ever responded to this.
  41. The notion that American blacks, or a signfiicant portion of them, could actually end up poorer after reparations are paid isn’t all that far-fetched. Just consider what happens to a considerable number or people after they receive a windfall: decreased work ethic, waste on substance abuse, the belief they will never have to work (or work very hard) again, causing them to give the bird to their employers and lose their jobs, ad infinitum. And if the government goes broke after paying out ~$3 trillion in reparations then, well, their goes the pensions for the significant share of the black middle class that exists due to government employment. Or if payment of reparations is contingent on the elimination of certain forms of welfare, affirmative action, etc., then they really are hosed, with a reduced income stream after the windfall has been spent.

    Given the significant number of middle class and rich who can’t successfully manage to use a financial windfall properly it’s not unreasonable to expect an enormous percentage of the less-educated to pretty much blow it, and to ruin their lives while doing so.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    Thunderbird Wine Futures Up Limit on Report
    , @Anonymous
    This is a very good reply. Think of lottery winners who go broke. Reparations given on such a scale should only come with paternalism.

    Pretty much all blacks would reject it though.
  42. All at once it’s clearer than ever why the NYT and its kind will fight tooth-and-nail to prevent household wealth data (as opposed to income data) for the Tribe from ever being collected, much less publicized. Because I could see some other reparations coming our way, particularly since a mere disparity is now considered dispositive

  43. @Wilkey
    The notion that American blacks, or a signfiicant portion of them, could actually end up poorer after reparations are paid isn't all that far-fetched. Just consider what happens to a considerable number or people after they receive a windfall: decreased work ethic, waste on substance abuse, the belief they will never have to work (or work very hard) again, causing them to give the bird to their employers and lose their jobs, ad infinitum. And if the government goes broke after paying out ~$3 trillion in reparations then, well, their goes the pensions for the significant share of the black middle class that exists due to government employment. Or if payment of reparations is contingent on the elimination of certain forms of welfare, affirmative action, etc., then they really are hosed, with a reduced income stream after the windfall has been spent.

    Given the significant number of middle class and rich who can't successfully manage to use a financial windfall properly it's not unreasonable to expect an enormous percentage of the less-educated to pretty much blow it, and to ruin their lives while doing so.

    Thunderbird Wine Futures Up Limit on Report

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
  44. You can give blacks money all you want. But you can’t give most of them the low time preference which would enable them not to waste the money.

  45. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Since it appears descendants of "whites" who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Whether for whites or others, I have always found this argument annoying. Are white descendants of pre-Civil War Americans the only people in the whole freaking world who should be blamed for the sins of our ancestors? I’m guilty of shit that happened over 150 years ago, but Italians whose ancestors came here more recently are innocent of Italian fascism and colonialism? Saudis who came here 5 years ago are innocent of Saudi oppression of women, gays, and religious minorities?

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else’s ancestors over theirs. Moving to America doesn’t magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country.

    • Replies: @bomag
    Spot on comment.

    The subtext of the reparation criers is that poor Black performance will be reversed with one more program of wealth transfer.

    Of course, improvement never comes, which becomes another reason to cry for more repair.

    A consequence of adopting the premise that all men are created equal.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    "Moving to America doesn’t magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country."

    So Saudis oppressing homos and women requires them to pay reparations to negros in the US. Got it!
    , @TomSchmidt
    Your argument justifies taxing Italians in Italy (to pay to Eritreans, maybe) and their descendants here. Hit Saudi Arabia with a big charge to pay for Yemen, and the victims of all the Wahhabist Madrassas.

    Why should an Italian-American whose people immigrated in 1895 pay for Fascism in Italy, or slavery here?

    Of course, there were profits from slavery. They accumulated mostly in the slave states, and the capital was blown to hell in the Civil War. Forty acres and a mule would have been rough justice in 1865, since he capital value of much of the land was gone. Now?
    , @ben tillman

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else’s ancestors over theirs.
     
    Indeed. And, of course, Jews and black Africans played a role in this particular episode: chattel slavery in the New World or in North America (take your pick).
  46. @Anon
    As part Neanderthal I demand reparations from the pure blooded Homosapiens who murdered my ancestors and stole Eurasia from us!

    One has to admire the willingness of Jews to continuously light matches in a gunpowder factory, even as the fine dust starts to diffuse throughout its air and the dangerous-condition alarms start to sound. Its almost like they want it to explode. Now why would that be??

    They are also the West’s seemingly self-appointed accountants, ever trying to move money from Whites to satisfy invented debts ostensibly held by themselves or, lets be honest, literally anyone else.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes

    "They [Jews] are also the West’s seemingly self-appointed accountants, ever trying to move money from Whites to satisfy invented debts ostensibly held by themselves or, lets be honest, literally anyone else."
     
    And they're rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of raking in the fees associated with those accounts. There will be both an initial set-up charge as well as an on-going account maintenance fee. Always, they get their cut.

    But hey, Justice! What's good for blacks is good for the Jews, no? All in the name of fairness. No mention of the fact that fully one half of all Americans are descended from immigrants who arrived here post Civil War. Where's the fairness in that? Why should they have to cough up a dime?

    What really grates here is that in pre-Revolutionary War days, before the Articles of the Confederation were drawn up, each State was a sovereign entity. Even had they wanted to intervene, the citizens of New York or New Hampshire had no influence whatsoever in how the citizens of South Carolina chose to organize themselves. It would have simply been illegal--not to mention unrealistic given the then existing technological constraints on communication--for citizens of the North to have meddled in the affairs of the slave-holding states.

    But hey, when has a social justice warrior been bothered by a truthful account of history as it unfolded? How convenient that their favorite deconstructionists tells them that there is no right way to view the past.
  47. Anon[126] • Disclaimer says:

    Will they adjust the figure to take into account the amount of reparations thus far issued? The worth of affirmative action? The black women in the middle class because of government jobs they are not the best qualified for? The value of the time of white people wasted at the DMV? The lost income from white people that didn’t get into prestigious universities?

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Yes, but that's the GENIUS of affirmative action. None knows who the marginal white person (who might have competed with elite white people) was who was turned aside for an affirmatively-actioned person is. The benefits accrue to the "talented tenth" who are rewarded spots at the expense of middling whites and now top-level Asians, but they mostly accrue to the elite who do not have to compete with striver whites and Asians.

    Thomas Sowell made the point that, if redress to African Americans must be made, that reparations are much fairer as EVERYONE pays them, not just the marginal whites (and now Asians) screwed over by affirmative action, and almost all descendants of slaves receive them, not just the talented tenth who get most of the benefits of AA today.
  48. @Anonymous
    Reparations: Yes, but only with separation.

    You take the money and you leave the US permanently.

    Or, if you hven't reproduced, maybe you take a monthly stipend in exchange for sterilization and waiver of right to trial if credibly accused of crime.

    ‘Reparations: Yes, but only with separation.

    You take the money and you leave the US permanently.

    Or, if you hven’t reproduced, maybe you take a monthly stipend in exchange for sterilization and waiver of right to trial if credibly accused of crime.’

    It’s good to see there’s someone with a statesman-like ability to compromise and seek a middle path.

    Actually, I say offer them the eighty thousand to spend and have a party — if they agree to deportation to West Africa in six months. They dump the money back into the economy, and then off they go.

    The beauty of it is that it’ll disproportionately be the worst of the black population that will take the money. The ones left won’t be so bad — more your exasperatingly incompetent bank officer types.

  49. AncestryDNA provided my seemingly WASP family with a surprise in that my father was found to be eight percent African of various sub Saharan tribes. I’m three percent and my sister is two percent. We have since discovered that a slave women ancestor was freed by her master (and presumed father to her children) on his deathbed in Florida with the stipulation that she and her children were to be taken to a Free State namely Illinois. One of her sons is a direct ancestor to my father. So, if there’s reparations a-coming, is the one-drop rule still in effect, because I’m in my 60s and could use a boost to my income stream.

  50. @OilcanFloyd
    Just like holocaust reparations, it'll never end. What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel's neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles? How much is that per Jewish victim? Probably far more than any would have been worth, except for a Rothschild, and they seem to have made it through the war ok.

    Is there enough money, land, and perks to pay off blacks? They are far more numerous than Jews. Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn't seem fair that I would.

    What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?

    Doesn’t look like you bothered to do any research.

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that’s about $6 billion in today’s dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Ok, that's the German contribution, not counting other things the Germans have done, like give passports and citizenship to the descendants of Jews murdered in the Holocaust. The original question was:

    "What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?"

    I wonder what that figure actually is?
    , @OilcanFloyd
    It's a lot more than that in real estate alone. I asked the question knowing that Germany is not the only nation that has paid money, and every sweetheart deal or loan WITHOUT interest (imagine that!) that doesn't have to be repaid counts.

    Are you really that dishonest?
    , @Peripatetic Commenter
    Surely it was only 5,999,998 ...

    https://twistedsifter.com/2019/05/holocaust-survivors-in-same-line-at-auschwitz-meet-72-years-later/

    Wait. So there were survivors ... and they lived at least another 72 years.

    Sounds like a summer camp.
    , @Anon

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that’s about $6 billion in today’s dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.
     
    When the "victim" tally is an oft changed pre WWII invention, the difference between $1,000 per and nothing is everything.
  51. Free money for fools ends up being traded to rich people in exchange for junk.

  52. PressEscToGoBack

    How about reparations for the destruction of America?

    • Replies: @eah
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7HzHoyXYAEqpU4.jpg
  53. @OilcanFloyd
    That's more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.

    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.

    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.

    No it is not.

    It’s a bunch of different things:
    — Lower human capital overall.
    — Climate burden
    — Disease burden
    — Resource differential for industrialization (easier access to coal, iron, easier transport of same)
    — Path dependence–north started on the industrial path, generally easier to continue it, vs. existing cotton economy

    War destruction itself is pretty transient and was highly uneven across the South from substantial to completely non-existent.

    • Replies: @anon
    Cotton production in the South was back above pre-war levels not too long into Recontstrution, so yes, the war devastation, though severe in many areas, was not the determining factor.

    Path Dependence is an interesting idea. I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century. You would see this nowhere in my home state of Arkansas. I was struck with how rich and powerful the North must have been at this time. Once you have money and Big Mo on your side, big things happen.

    I disagree on the burden of climate. Your nasty winters are a burden. Our soft summers are a luxury.

    , @Redneck farmer
    Next, you'll be saying he should have picked his own cotton!
    , @OilcanFloyd
    The South was developing industrially prior to the war, just at a different rate. I don't have any love for the plantation system, but the North enforced the system they fought for after the war where the South was used for cheap raw materials, and the North made money from shipping and finished goods. Wood and naval stores were as much a part of the equation as cotton, and generated more money after the boll weavils and blights. The South also had good access to coal throughout southern Appalachia.

    The war destruction and the takeover of the economy by northern interests was a big deal, even accounting for climate and the general stupidity of the population.
  54. @eah
    PressEscToGoBack

    How about reparations for the destruction of America?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7DUIDlWkAEqhYQ.jpg

  55. @Jon
    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.

    If you really want to know the effect on slavery on the finances of American blacks, you need to compare them to their African counterparts.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    If you really want to know the effect on slavery on the finances of American blacks, you need to compare them to their African counterparts.
     
    Boom! GermanReader2 nails it.

    American blacks are in fact the greatest beneficiaries of slavery. They are about an order of magnitude *better off* than the typical West African--and that's in purchasing power parity terms. In nominal per capita income (ability to afford world tradeable goods like buying an iPhag or purchasing plane tickets) American blacks are more like 30x better off.

    I'm 100% for generous reparations for American decendant of slaves blacks. However reparations assumes blacks today are harmed by their ancestors having been transported from Africa, resulting in their descendants living in the US instead of West Africa. So if blacks want reparations, with that ... they must go back!
  56. All the calculations out there assume an unrealistic baseline — a scenario in which Africans had been welcome as regular immigrants or settlers like the Pennsylvania Dutch and the Scotts Irish, and allowed to prosper as free people.

    Of course that was never an option; the realistic alternative to bringing them here as slaves was just not bringing them here at all. And so rather than comparing today’s blacks’ wealth to that of whites, we should be comparing their wealth to the median in today’s west Africa.

    GDP per capita in Nigeria is about $6000 (at purchasing power parity), according to Wikipedia. In the US, it’s about $40,000 for blacks.

    • Replies: @eah
    we should be comparing their wealth

    I get your point -- still, you do that, and leave the rest of us ("we") out of it.

    In reality, Blacks ought to get down on their knees and kiss the ground in gratitude for being allowed to live in America; that we put up with and subsidize them: their heinous, outrageously high violent criminality, with all the associated human suffering and societal costs -- their gross academic failure, which results in virtually a complete lack of any meaningful contribution to America as a first world country -- etc etc.

    Any talk of "reparations" today is about transferring assets from one group of innocent individuals to another group of individuals who are not now and never were victims.

  57. @newrouter
    Do we deduct for reparations already paid: EBT, Section 8, AA, prison food/housing, et al? (yea right)

    After those deductions they owe us how much per capita?

  58. anon[335] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad


    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.
     
    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
     
    No it is not.

    It's a bunch of different things:
    -- Lower human capital overall.
    -- Climate burden
    -- Disease burden
    -- Resource differential for industrialization (easier access to coal, iron, easier transport of same)
    -- Path dependence--north started on the industrial path, generally easier to continue it, vs. existing cotton economy

    War destruction itself is pretty transient and was highly uneven across the South from substantial to completely non-existent.

    Cotton production in the South was back above pre-war levels not too long into Recontstrution, so yes, the war devastation, though severe in many areas, was not the determining factor.

    Path Dependence is an interesting idea. I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century. You would see this nowhere in my home state of Arkansas. I was struck with how rich and powerful the North must have been at this time. Once you have money and Big Mo on your side, big things happen.

    I disagree on the burden of climate. Your nasty winters are a burden. Our soft summers are a luxury.

    • Replies: @John Redcorn
    Little Rock has many older mansions post civil War.
    , @AnotherDad

    I disagree on the burden of climate. Your nasty winters are a burden. Our soft summers are a luxury.
     
    In absolute terms, yes.

    But humans had mostly solved--for limited spaces--the "too cold" problem, by putting on layers of clothes and--for limited spaces--with combustion.

    You could heat a factory--somewhat. Sun windows and machinery help heat it a bit as well. (Or if it's a foundry, no need to heat at all!) And if it's a bit cool, workers bundle up and in the cool, naturally want to be moving, doing stuff.

    But heat makes people
    a) not want to work--not be energetic ("sluggish")
    b) not think very clearly/well.
    And a confined factory with machines, or worse, some heating process, the heat is worse. So in the summer in the South, people ... don't want to do much. And we didn't really have any great way to fix that.

    You'll note that the big breakout of the South, the "Sunbelt" was after AC. If i'm going to actually think clearly to engineer something or do it well, i want to be at a comfortable temperature.

    , @Reg Cæsar

    I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century.
     
    Summit Avenue. That's about it for the whole city. Far from typical.

    Railroad baron James J Hill built what is arguably the only true mansion on the five-mile strip:


    https://www.mnhs.org/sites/default/files/-paragraphs/image/edit/exterior-angle-house.jpg


    The private James J Hill Library (physically but not institutionally attached to the city library) has a letter from Andrew Carnegie chiding the locals for asking him to pay for a building when they had Hill. Hill must have been embarrassed by this, because he did build it. Carnegie sprung for a few of the branches.

    Hill also had a less affluent man, John Armstrong, evicted from the summit so he could build his own house. Armstrong built another downtown, but I wouldn't call anything that can be picked up and moved whole, as it was in 2001, a "mansion".

    Despite these marks on his record, Hill was probably the most honest and least arrogant of all the railroad barons.
  59. eah says:
    @International Jew
    All the calculations out there assume an unrealistic baseline — a scenario in which Africans had been welcome as regular immigrants or settlers like the Pennsylvania Dutch and the Scotts Irish, and allowed to prosper as free people.

    Of course that was never an option; the realistic alternative to bringing them here as slaves was just not bringing them here at all. And so rather than comparing today's blacks' wealth to that of whites, we should be comparing their wealth to the median in today's west Africa.

    GDP per capita in Nigeria is about $6000 (at purchasing power parity), according to Wikipedia. In the US, it's about $40,000 for blacks.

    we should be comparing their wealth

    I get your point — still, you do that, and leave the rest of us (“we”) out of it.

    In reality, Blacks ought to get down on their knees and kiss the ground in gratitude for being allowed to live in America; that we put up with and subsidize them: their heinous, outrageously high violent criminality, with all the associated human suffering and societal costs — their gross academic failure, which results in virtually a complete lack of any meaningful contribution to America as a first world country — etc etc.

    Any talk of “reparations” today is about transferring assets from one group of innocent individuals to another group of individuals who are not now and never were victims.

  60. anon[335] • Disclaimer says:

    Given the significant number of middle class and rich who can’t successfully manage to use a financial windfall properly it’s not unreasonable to expect an enormous percentage of the less-educated to pretty much blow it, and to ruin their lives while doing so.

    I smell an opportunity here. If every Negro in America gets $80,000 in cash, and if 90% of them blow it in a fortnight, I want to be there when it happens.

    • Agree: GermanReader2
    • Replies: @Daniel Williams

    If every Negro in America gets $80,000 in cash, and if 90% of them blow it in a fortnight, I want to be there when it happens.
     
    I 100% agree. I support this plan. It would be hilarious to watch and live through—I’d feel like an extra in Brewster’s Millions.
  61. Anonymous[319] • Disclaimer says:

    As I stated before there *was* a program of reparations given to freed slaves, as recompense, by the US Government and other official bodies immediately after emancipation.

    It was the ‘Colonization Scheme’ – by which the injury inflicted upon black Africans by their forced removal and enslavement by Americans was remedied – that is the typical ‘civil remedy’ of putting the injured party back to to their previous circumstances – by resettling emancipated slaves in their own sovereign African republics under the paternalistic aegis of the USA.

    The fact that Liberia failed and failed disastrously, is another story.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The American colonisation society was started by private citizens decades before rhe civil war and never recieved direct government funding.
  62. jon says:
    @OilcanFloyd
    That's more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.

    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.

    I mentioned “since the Civil War” in my post, but it’s not like the South’s economy was rocking before the war. They were already well behind, despite all that “stolen wealth” that the slaves provided. Here is a site I found with a bunch of stats/graphs showing the discrepancy:

    http://www.rtimager.org/north-vs-south-economy-civil-war/

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    The Cotton Boom of the 1850s made the Southern economy real lopsided. For example, around maybe 1840 a guy founded a business magazine to report on and promote Southern industry. It did pretty well for awhile but then went out of business in the 1850s because nobody in the south cared about industry anymore. Cotton was king.

    , @OilcanFloyd
    Behind relative to the North, but so was much of the world after the Civil War. After the war, the South was largely used as cheap labor and as a supplier of cheap raw materials. The North got the system they fought for.
  63. @OilcanFloyd
    Just like holocaust reparations, it'll never end. What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel's neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles? How much is that per Jewish victim? Probably far more than any would have been worth, except for a Rothschild, and they seem to have made it through the war ok.

    Is there enough money, land, and perks to pay off blacks? They are far more numerous than Jews. Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn't seem fair that I would.

    Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.

    And think of how the existence of slavery negatively affected the wages of poor whites. Demand for them was artificially lower–hence, so were their wages–because the planters had an ample supply of slaves already. Abraham Lincoln himself once made this point in a debate with Stephen Douglas:

    “Labor is like any other commodity in the market—increase the demand for it and you increase the price of it. Reduce the supply of black labor by colonizing the black laborer out of the country, and by precisely so much you increase the demand for and wages of white labor.”

    (We can also see from this what Lincoln’s original position of the freedmen was: they should be repatriated to Africa.)

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    Exactly. And it's not just small farmers who were harmed, since slave owners often rented out slaves to work away from the plantations as laborers, craftsmen, construction workers, etc., depressing the wages of many whites who were not small farmers or farm laborers.

    The unfair competition with slaves was a real bone of contention for many whites in the South, and easily destroys any argument that most whites supported slavery or benefited from slavery.

    I don't owe blacks, or anyone else, a dime, and I resent anyone else claiming I do. If reparations were funded voluntarily, I doubt that much money would be collected.

    I don't know what the future of this country is, but forcing everyone together, and importing a whole extra population isn't working out. There has to be some way to peacefully untangle this mess, send many legal and illegal immigrants home where they belong, and allow the rest of us to separate. I can specifically live without Jews and blacks.
    , @OilcanFloyd
    Slaves were rented out for coal mining, construction, digging ditches, laying track, and everything in between, and they were used to keep labor prices low. Whoever thinks slavery was a popular institution among the masses is ignoring human nature.
  64. Irredentist ex-super-oligarch and Hollywood scenario provider Khodorkovsky says Putin has a plan (sounds suspiciously like something Muhammar El Ghaddafi might come up with but not actually implement):

    NBC Claims Russians Plan To Give African Americans Combat Training

    (Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord — and violence — in the U.S.)

    On Monday NBC news reported “Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord and violence in the US.” The claim is that these documents are communications between associates of Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is described as a “Kremlin linked oligarch indicted by special counsel Robert Mueller.” The documents were obtained by the Dossier Center, a London based investigative project funded by exiled Russian opposition leader Mikhail Khodorkovsky. NBC News admitted they have not independently verified the documents.

    These communications, which NBC says are light on detail, suggest a plan to recruit African Americans and transport them to camps in Africa “for combat prep and training in sabotage.”

    The plan, entitled “Development Strategy of a Pan-African State on U.S. Territory,” proposed to recruit poor and disenfranchised African Americans “who have experience in organized crime groups” and members of “radical black movements for participation in civil disobedience actions.”

    After the training in Africa, they would be sent back to America with hopes of them fomenting violence and working to develop a pan-African state in the South. The goal is to “destabilize the internal situation in the US.”

    “A pan-African state in the South”. Yeah, that sounds like a top plan. Why not Illinois?

    • Replies: @bomag

    a plan to recruit African Americans and transport them to camps in Africa “for combat prep and training in sabotage.”
     
    Just a page out of radical Islam.

    Why transport them? I'm sure our public schools and such can be tweaked the small amount needed to accommodate.
    , @LondonBob
    No doubt (((Russians))) have been agitating the blacks. Bolshevik tactic to accuse others first of what you yourself are doing.
    , @Tex
    The Obama faction of the Democratic Party has yet another grievance against Russia. First Putin elects Trump, now he plagiarizes their 2020 campaign platform.
    , @Yngvar
    Reuters, May 24, 2019
    "Russia to send military specialists to Congo Republic: Kremlin"
  65. Anonymous[319] • Disclaimer says:

    OT.

    Just read the other day that the annual ‘direct’ cost of the Merkel immigration wave of 2015 into Germany is around 22 billion euros per annum. This, of course, is surely an underestimate, since ‘indirect’ externalities pertinent to this influx are not included. This colossal sum appears to be paid out annually ad infinitum.

    To put things into perspective, 22,000 euros, after tax, is a decent enough annual wage in western Europe. Thus, the Merkel liability is, theoretically, sufficient to pay for the full time employment of one million German workers – of course, the value added output of one million workers when directed wisely, is potentially prodigious.

    • Replies: @eah
    https://i.postimg.cc/Kjwh97F5/netzdenunziant-merkel.png
  66. “Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls.”

    So, the proposal is to take the money from roughly 100 million taxpaying white families and launder it through roughly 15 million black families to then have it wind up in a couple dozen oligarch, predominantly Jewish families.

    • Replies: @OEMIKITLOB
    That's it in a nutshell. Same ol' song and dance.
  67. @AnotherDad


    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.
     
    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
     
    No it is not.

    It's a bunch of different things:
    -- Lower human capital overall.
    -- Climate burden
    -- Disease burden
    -- Resource differential for industrialization (easier access to coal, iron, easier transport of same)
    -- Path dependence--north started on the industrial path, generally easier to continue it, vs. existing cotton economy

    War destruction itself is pretty transient and was highly uneven across the South from substantial to completely non-existent.

    Next, you’ll be saying he should have picked his own cotton!

  68. @jon

    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
     
    I mentioned "since the Civil War" in my post, but it's not like the South's economy was rocking before the war. They were already well behind, despite all that "stolen wealth" that the slaves provided. Here is a site I found with a bunch of stats/graphs showing the discrepancy:

    http://www.rtimager.org/north-vs-south-economy-civil-war/

    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    The Cotton Boom of the 1850s made the Southern economy real lopsided. For example, around maybe 1840 a guy founded a business magazine to report on and promote Southern industry. It did pretty well for awhile but then went out of business in the 1850s because nobody in the south cared about industry anymore. Cotton was king.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    'The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory' - or something along those lines.

    I remember reading a children's book, or perhaps just an encyclopedia article, comparing the wealth and industry of the South at the start of the war to that of the North. I've forgotten most of the precise details, but it left a strong impression that remains with me even today. That impression is of how little wealth was actually created by slave labor. One specific I remember is that of all the factories in the U.S. at the start of the war only 15% were in the South.

    The vast majority of this nation's wealth was created by the factories in the North and the ingenuity that built them and ran them, not by planting and growing crops that could just as easily have been planted and grown anywhere else. Of course some of that industry was fed by the plantations in the South...but not the cannon factories.

    So there's a certain irony here. If slave labor had produced as much wealth as the proponents of reparations pretend it did, the South probably would have been rich enough to have won its independence, and blacks might still be slaves.
  69. … For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents.

    I don’t believe that for a second. It may be true as an average if you include people like Warren Buffett, but there’s no way the typical white household has ten times as much money as the typical black household. Most people just don’t have that much money, white or black.

    • Replies: @bomag

    there’s no way the typical white household has ten times as much money as the typical black household
     
    A problematic analysis.

    A significant number of Black households have zero wealth as an explicit strategy: current consumption to the max. Not an unreasonable strategy in today's world. Anybody holding any money thus has infinite more wealth.

    A significant number of households across the spectrum carry all the debt they can and have a negative net worth. Some have had large amounts discharged through bankruptcy.

    With all these life choice problems, a fairer way to consider reparations is to examine the earning potential of Blacks compared to others. I'm guessing that Blacks are out earning their racial counterparts when controlling for ability.
    , @TomSchmidt
    Median versus mean is an interesting discussion. The median household has $5000 saved for retirement. So when Hillary wondered how people could vote for Trump, as he would cause a crash in the stock market, well, um, half the people don't HAVE any skin in that game.

    The fact that that is dangerous to a society's continuation is something she entirely missed.
  70. @Anonymous
    OT.

    Just read the other day that the annual 'direct' cost of the Merkel immigration wave of 2015 into Germany is around 22 billion euros per annum. This, of course, is surely an underestimate, since 'indirect' externalities pertinent to this influx are not included. This colossal sum appears to be paid out annually ad infinitum.

    To put things into perspective, 22,000 euros, after tax, is a decent enough annual wage in western Europe. Thus, the Merkel liability is, theoretically, sufficient to pay for the full time employment of one million German workers - of course, the value added output of one million workers when directed wisely, is potentially prodigious.

  71. @Paul
    Any reparations payments should start with Africans paying them. African tribes sold captured members of other tribes (with whom they were warring) into slavery rather then murdering them as is African tradition. (They did not have P.O.W. camps.) All U.S. aid to Africa should be ended until Africa pays reparations. That would also help save the American taxpayer (of any race) money. Who could be against that?

    Back around 2001, the president of a West African country issued an apology for his country selling New World blacks into slavery.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Show me dey money!
    , @MC
    He should have apologized to his own countrymen for not sending their ancestors as well.
  72. @newrouter
    Do we deduct for reparations already paid: EBT, Section 8, AA, prison food/housing, et al? (yea right)

    “[R]eparations already paid: EBT, Section 8, AA, prison food/housing…”

    Plus, the cost of rebuilding Watts, Detroit, Washington DC et al after they burned them down.

    See: http://fosterspeak.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-detroit-riots-of-1967-and-its.html

  73. On Monday NBC news reported “Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord and violence in the US.”

    Why bother, when the Democrats and the media are doing it already?

    • Agree: bomag
  74. @Cato
    According to 23andMe, I have slightly less than 1% Sub-Saharan African ancestry. Do I get slightly less than 1% of the standard reparations amount?

    Do I get slightly less than 1% of the standard reparations amount?

    Ha ha.

    A board, of the usual suspects, will be impaneled to determine who is Black for reasons of reparations. All others pay, and demonstrate proper guilt, forever.

    “If you want a vision of the future, imagine Whites paying Blacks reparations until all the Whites are gone.”

  75. Here’s a handy reference for caculatin: Highlights and Key Points The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews, Volume One – https://noirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/TSR.HighlightsKeyPoints1.pdf

    “The authors of The Secret Relationship underestimate the struc-tural importance of the Jews in the early stages of the New World slave trade.” – Ralph A. Austen, Jewish professor of African Studies, U. of Chicago

    “Besides their important position in the sugar industry and in tax farming, they dominated the slave trade….The buyers who appeared at the auctions were almost always Jews, and because of this lack of competitors they could buy slaves at low prices.” – Dr. Arnold Wiznitzer discussing slavery in Brazil. Not sure what he’s suggesting about competition, but it sure sounds anti-semitic.

    The Jewish Encyclopedia adds, “Jewish commercial activity” in this time included a “monopoly of the slave trade.” Brazil again.

    “When slavery was outlawed in the colony of Georgia, Jews left; they returned once slavery was reinstated.”

    “Jews became the major traders in ‘refuse slaves’—Africans who were weak and sick from the Middle Passage voyage. Jewish traders “fattened them up” and sold them at a profit.”

    “Jews set up militias with the sole purpose of fighting the Black Maroons, the escaped Africans who were fighting to free their enslaved breth-ren. The Jewish militias murdered the Maroons and cut off their hands to award as trophies.”

    Of course, if Tennessee et al really want to sock it whitey, they’ll pack up and abandon us.

  76. @KL
    Genetic analysis show that over one third of African-American men have a white male ancestor from Civil War times. Will they pay reparations to themselves?

    100% of African-Americans have white ancestors
    the average African-American is over 20% white
    10% of Black Americans are more than 50% white.

    “The average African-American is 24 percent European. Now think about that. And DNA companies in the United States will tell you that they have never tested an African-American who is 100 percent from sub-Saharan Africa. “- Harvard historian Henry Louis Gates. https://www.npr.org/2019/01/21/686531998/historian-henry-louis-gates-jr-on-dna-testing-and-finding-his-own-roots

  77. @Wilkey
    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Whether for whites or others, I have always found this argument annoying. Are white descendants of pre-Civil War Americans the only people in the whole freaking world who should be blamed for the sins of our ancestors? I'm guilty of shit that happened over 150 years ago, but Italians whose ancestors came here more recently are innocent of Italian fascism and colonialism? Saudis who came here 5 years ago are innocent of Saudi oppression of women, gays, and religious minorities?

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else's ancestors over theirs. Moving to America doesn't magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country.

    Spot on comment.

    The subtext of the reparation criers is that poor Black performance will be reversed with one more program of wealth transfer.

    Of course, improvement never comes, which becomes another reason to cry for more repair.

    A consequence of adopting the premise that all men are created equal.

  78. Reparations are basically to the Democratic left what abortion is to the Republican right.

    Doesn’t mean that there isn’t merit to either, but really, in the coming decades they’re just GOTV issues that are perpetually never solved, used to motivate the dimmer portions of the coalition.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Pro-lifers are among the more intelligent and certainly conscientious Rs.
    , @Jack Hanson
    Keep telling yourself that. The Left delivers more or less while we have Central America pouring over our borders under a Republican President.
  79. @tsotha

    … For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents.
     
    I don't believe that for a second. It may be true as an average if you include people like Warren Buffett, but there's no way the typical white household has ten times as much money as the typical black household. Most people just don't have that much money, white or black.

    there’s no way the typical white household has ten times as much money as the typical black household

    A problematic analysis.

    A significant number of Black households have zero wealth as an explicit strategy: current consumption to the max. Not an unreasonable strategy in today’s world. Anybody holding any money thus has infinite more wealth.

    A significant number of households across the spectrum carry all the debt they can and have a negative net worth. Some have had large amounts discharged through bankruptcy.

    With all these life choice problems, a fairer way to consider reparations is to examine the earning potential of Blacks compared to others. I’m guessing that Blacks are out earning their racial counterparts when controlling for ability.

  80. @El Dato
    Irredentist ex-super-oligarch and Hollywood scenario provider Khodorkovsky says Putin has a plan (sounds suspiciously like something Muhammar El Ghaddafi might come up with but not actually implement):

    NBC Claims Russians Plan To Give African Americans Combat Training

    (Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord — and violence — in the U.S.)

    On Monday NBC news reported "Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord and violence in the US." The claim is that these documents are communications between associates of Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is described as a "Kremlin linked oligarch indicted by special counsel Robert Mueller." The documents were obtained by the Dossier Center, a London based investigative project funded by exiled Russian opposition leader Mikhail Khodorkovsky. NBC News admitted they have not independently verified the documents.

    These communications, which NBC says are light on detail, suggest a plan to recruit African Americans and transport them to camps in Africa "for combat prep and training in sabotage."

    The plan, entitled "Development Strategy of a Pan-African State on U.S. Territory," proposed to recruit poor and disenfranchised African Americans "who have experience in organized crime groups" and members of "radical black movements for participation in civil disobedience actions."

    After the training in Africa, they would be sent back to America with hopes of them fomenting violence and working to develop a pan-African state in the South. The goal is to "destabilize the internal situation in the US."
     
    "A pan-African state in the South". Yeah, that sounds like a top plan. Why not Illinois?

    a plan to recruit African Americans and transport them to camps in Africa “for combat prep and training in sabotage.”

    Just a page out of radical Islam.

    Why transport them? I’m sure our public schools and such can be tweaked the small amount needed to accommodate.

  81. @anon
    I wonder if there's still time to open a Cadillac dealership.

    I wanna say one word to you . . . just one word.

    Yes sir.

    Are you listening?

    Yes I am.

    Chrome rims.

    (OK, it’s two words, but whatever.)

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Spinnahs!
    , @Reactionary Utopian

    Chrome rims.

    (OK, it’s two words, but whatever.
     
    Great! But here’s ONE word: “Spinnaz.”
  82. @Wilkey
    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Whether for whites or others, I have always found this argument annoying. Are white descendants of pre-Civil War Americans the only people in the whole freaking world who should be blamed for the sins of our ancestors? I'm guilty of shit that happened over 150 years ago, but Italians whose ancestors came here more recently are innocent of Italian fascism and colonialism? Saudis who came here 5 years ago are innocent of Saudi oppression of women, gays, and religious minorities?

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else's ancestors over theirs. Moving to America doesn't magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country.

    “Moving to America doesn’t magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country.”

    So Saudis oppressing homos and women requires them to pay reparations to negros in the US. Got it!

  83. @Pirelli
    Yes, the Democrats really are getting their ideas from Ta-Nehisi Coates these days. Committing to reparations — even just committing to create a committee to “explore” it — would be electoral suicide in the general, but the Democratic nominee will likely do it. Trump will have a field day with it.

    That’s Ta-HissyFit Coates.

    Whoa, I just realized that when Ta-HissyFit uses the European origin name “Coates”, he is committing the grievous Cultural Marxist sin of cultural appropriation, or more correctly, cultural expropriation.

  84. They are rushing to get reparations while America still has some white people left.
    In 1910 there were 9 Whites for every Black. The ratio of whites to Blacks has fallen to to 4 – 1 and will soon be 2 – 1

    census— 1910 — 1960 — 2010 — 2060*
    Whites – 82 M -156 M – 197 M –181 M
    Blacks -— 9 M — 19 M —- 41 M — 79 M

    *US census estimates, the White population is declining.
    The Black population is growing exponentially as the white population is declining.
    The African-American population of America has more than doubled every 50 years.

  85. So descendants of Armenians who came to America at the turn of the century get to pay blacks reparations for events totally removed from their sphere of influence AFTER barely surviving the Turkish genocide? Only (((Solomon))) himself could have brokered a more balanced compact. Can I get repaid for blacks’ floccinaucinihilipilification of real estate market value?
    So this sets the legal precedent of one being responsible for another’s actions: Again the apotheosis of fairness.

  86. Will those who descend from those who owned or invested in the slave ships and slave markets have to pay reparations; this would even apply to those descendants who have (((dual citizenship)))?

  87. @Anon
    One has to admire the willingness of Jews to continuously light matches in a gunpowder factory, even as the fine dust starts to diffuse throughout its air and the dangerous-condition alarms start to sound. Its almost like they want it to explode. Now why would that be??

    They are also the West's seemingly self-appointed accountants, ever trying to move money from Whites to satisfy invented debts ostensibly held by themselves or, lets be honest, literally anyone else.

    “They [Jews] are also the West’s seemingly self-appointed accountants, ever trying to move money from Whites to satisfy invented debts ostensibly held by themselves or, lets be honest, literally anyone else.”

    And they’re rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of raking in the fees associated with those accounts. There will be both an initial set-up charge as well as an on-going account maintenance fee. Always, they get their cut.

    But hey, Justice! What’s good for blacks is good for the Jews, no? All in the name of fairness. No mention of the fact that fully one half of all Americans are descended from immigrants who arrived here post Civil War. Where’s the fairness in that? Why should they have to cough up a dime?

    What really grates here is that in pre-Revolutionary War days, before the Articles of the Confederation were drawn up, each State was a sovereign entity. Even had they wanted to intervene, the citizens of New York or New Hampshire had no influence whatsoever in how the citizens of South Carolina chose to organize themselves. It would have simply been illegal–not to mention unrealistic given the then existing technological constraints on communication–for citizens of the North to have meddled in the affairs of the slave-holding states.

    But hey, when has a social justice warrior been bothered by a truthful account of history as it unfolded? How convenient that their favorite deconstructionists tells them that there is no right way to view the past.

  88. @ben tillman
    As I say every time this comes up, chattel slavery here didn't hurt today's black Americans; it was a bonanza. They would not exist without it, and -- if that weren't enough -- they're probably the most affluent black people on the planet.

    In other words, there is no damage to be repaired.

    As I say every time this comes up, chattel slavery here didn’t hurt today’s black Americans; it was a bonanza. They would not exist without it, and — if that weren’t enough — they’re probably the most affluent black people on the planet.

    In other words, there is no damage to be repaired.

    This is a good point. It’s one thing to muse about a metaphorical debt for a “moral stain,” but once you want to get down to actual dollars and cents you need to set the sentimentality aside and apply the law of remedies. The measure of damages in this exercise must account not only for the detriment suffered by the descendants of American slaves, but also the benefits accruing as a result. A sober investigation of their relative change in position is warranted.

    In the end, as Sailer says, American blacks are the poorest Americans and the richest Africans.

    • Replies: @HammerJack

    The measure of damages in this exercise must account not only for the detriment suffered by the descendants of American slaves, but also the benefits accruing as a result.
     
    There's a sentence we all need to remember, but which will doubtless be called subversive.
  89. Reparations is just another Keynesian stimulus. Just print the money and hand it out. Or enter it into an electronic account, what’s the difference? The point is to provide a guaranteed income. Murray and Hernstein warned us that this was coming. They said that, ultimately, given black’s innate disabilities, they would become permanent wards of the State.

    The underlying point is to continually expand the money supply. There’s no other way today’s massive public and private debts can be repaid. This is also the push behind unrestricted immigration.

    My guess is that it won’t be a one-time thing. It will be set up as an account into which the government credits a monthly stipend. That blacks will blow the money on depreciating assets is a plus. The stimulus then is immediate and consistent, which makes long-term central planning easier.

  90. For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents.

    Where is the evidence that the typical white household “holds” money from inheritance? Who believes that the $0.90 difference is attributable to intergenerational wealth transfers to white families?

    Part of the problem in making apples to apples comparisons is that many blacks have a negative net worth. They have some stuff – usually depreciating assets – but owe debts that are usually uncollectible. This is preferable to them than assiduously paying bills and monitoring their credit, saving over time by delaying gratification for the purpose of purchasing appreciating assets.

    Additionally, having children by different mothers and fathers is not a recipe for building wealth across generations.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Don't you get it?
    FACTS DON'T MATTER.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Agreed, Alec, especially on your 2nd paragraph. It's whites and others too (probably not a whole lot of Chinese, though) that do that same thing, living paycheck-to-paycheck, but not at the same rates. Just to guess, I wouldn't be surprised if more than half of black actual families (even with a Dad) live this way and probably 3/4 of the singles and black female-headed "households"

    That's why the gentleman's comment above about averages vs. medians (what I think he was getting at) is important. I wonder if this factoid used (with the 10%) is, in fact, a calculation on only those who do have positive assets to begin with, which makes the real case for blacks even sadder.

    I know a black guy who has a very decent business. He can make $3,000 cash in one day, and keep most of that after paying off his guys (he's pretty cheap about it) and his equipment, which he doesn't take care of too well. Even so, he can't handle money worth a crap, per a friend who lent him some for his truck. Who knows where he stands, in reality or on the books.
  91. Kudos to Ta-Nehisi & AOC for taking the lead on Reparations. It’s long overdue.

    Thankfully, we have the incredibly effective and successful Obamacare legislation to serve as a template. As such, remember that Reparations (like Obamacare) shall not apply to Government employees or Fortune 500 employees. They get to opt out.

    SO—-If you work for the government, you’re already doing God’s work in making reparations a reality. As such, you get to opt out.

    AND—If you work for a large company like a huge media outlet, or a university–obviously, or Big Tech, etc., etc–your employer already has meaningful Wokeness Initiatives in place, so you’re opted out as well.

    The people who need to shoulder the burden for reparations are white, self-employed scumbags who try to run their businesses independently….and the dumb, deplorable, racist losers who work for them.

    And remember, anyone who pays reparations with any resentment is just showing their true colors. They resent this equitable and ethical initiative because they are racist…and dumb.

  92. @Alec Leamas

    As I say every time this comes up, chattel slavery here didn’t hurt today’s black Americans; it was a bonanza. They would not exist without it, and — if that weren’t enough — they’re probably the most affluent black people on the planet.

    In other words, there is no damage to be repaired.

     

    This is a good point. It's one thing to muse about a metaphorical debt for a "moral stain," but once you want to get down to actual dollars and cents you need to set the sentimentality aside and apply the law of remedies. The measure of damages in this exercise must account not only for the detriment suffered by the descendants of American slaves, but also the benefits accruing as a result. A sober investigation of their relative change in position is warranted.

    In the end, as Sailer says, American blacks are the poorest Americans and the richest Africans.

    The measure of damages in this exercise must account not only for the detriment suffered by the descendants of American slaves, but also the benefits accruing as a result.

    There’s a sentence we all need to remember, but which will doubtless be called subversive.

  93. @Steve Sailer
    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    The Cotton Boom of the 1850s made the Southern economy real lopsided. For example, around maybe 1840 a guy founded a business magazine to report on and promote Southern industry. It did pretty well for awhile but then went out of business in the 1850s because nobody in the south cared about industry anymore. Cotton was king.

    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    ‘The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory’ – or something along those lines.

    I remember reading a children’s book, or perhaps just an encyclopedia article, comparing the wealth and industry of the South at the start of the war to that of the North. I’ve forgotten most of the precise details, but it left a strong impression that remains with me even today. That impression is of how little wealth was actually created by slave labor. One specific I remember is that of all the factories in the U.S. at the start of the war only 15% were in the South.

    The vast majority of this nation’s wealth was created by the factories in the North and the ingenuity that built them and ran them, not by planting and growing crops that could just as easily have been planted and grown anywhere else. Of course some of that industry was fed by the plantations in the South…but not the cannon factories.

    So there’s a certain irony here. If slave labor had produced as much wealth as the proponents of reparations pretend it did, the South probably would have been rich enough to have won its independence, and blacks might still be slaves.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    In any country (except for those like the modern US with highly mechanized agriculture), agriculture produces much less wealth than industry, despite employing a larger sector of the population. One cotton plantation might require hundreds of slaves and require hundreds of acres of land but produce only a modest amount of cotton by dollar value (you needed the slaves or the economics didn't work out - it would have cost more in free labor than the cotton was worth). One cotton mill in New England with the same # of free laborers and only occupying a tiny footprint could produce vastly more cotton cloth by value.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    ‘The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory’ – or something along those lines.
     
    If it weren't for the damn tariffs, we could import those cannon from our friendly allies, not despicable fellow/former citizens!
    , @Benjaminl
    Tocqueville made a famous comparison along the banks of the Ohio River between Ohio (free) and Kentucky (slave)

    https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1029&context=uauje
    , @William Badwhite
    Paul Johnson covers this fairly well in "A History of the American People".
  94. @Steve Sailer
    Back around 2001, the president of a West African country issued an apology for his country selling New World blacks into slavery.

    Show me dey money!

  95. @Wilkey
    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Whether for whites or others, I have always found this argument annoying. Are white descendants of pre-Civil War Americans the only people in the whole freaking world who should be blamed for the sins of our ancestors? I'm guilty of shit that happened over 150 years ago, but Italians whose ancestors came here more recently are innocent of Italian fascism and colonialism? Saudis who came here 5 years ago are innocent of Saudi oppression of women, gays, and religious minorities?

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else's ancestors over theirs. Moving to America doesn't magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country.

    Your argument justifies taxing Italians in Italy (to pay to Eritreans, maybe) and their descendants here. Hit Saudi Arabia with a big charge to pay for Yemen, and the victims of all the Wahhabist Madrassas.

    Why should an Italian-American whose people immigrated in 1895 pay for Fascism in Italy, or slavery here?

    Of course, there were profits from slavery. They accumulated mostly in the slave states, and the capital was blown to hell in the Civil War. Forty acres and a mule would have been rough justice in 1865, since he capital value of much of the land was gone. Now?

  96. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Since it appears descendants of "whites" who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    For practical purposes, they’ve already done that. Every white nation in the world is a welfare state paid for by income taxes on whites, and in every one of those nations nonwhites are disproportionately beneficiaries of welfare programs…

  97. @International Jew

    What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?
     
    Doesn't look like you bothered to do any research.

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that's about $6 billion in today's dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.

    Ok, that’s the German contribution, not counting other things the Germans have done, like give passports and citizenship to the descendants of Jews murdered in the Holocaust. The original question was:

    “What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?”

    I wonder what that figure actually is?

  98. @International Jew

    What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?
     
    Doesn't look like you bothered to do any research.

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that's about $6 billion in today's dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.

    It’s a lot more than that in real estate alone. I asked the question knowing that Germany is not the only nation that has paid money, and every sweetheart deal or loan WITHOUT interest (imagine that!) that doesn’t have to be repaid counts.

    Are you really that dishonest?

  99. Trump might win with TPUSA basic bitch cuckservatism just because the Democrats are pants on head insane.

    To be honest, not sure which is worst.

  100. @black sea
    I wanna say one word to you . . . just one word.

    Yes sir.

    Are you listening?

    Yes I am.

    Chrome rims.


    (OK, it's two words, but whatever.)

    Spinnahs!

  101. @Alec Leamas

    For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents.
     
    Where is the evidence that the typical white household "holds" money from inheritance? Who believes that the $0.90 difference is attributable to intergenerational wealth transfers to white families?

    Part of the problem in making apples to apples comparisons is that many blacks have a negative net worth. They have some stuff - usually depreciating assets - but owe debts that are usually uncollectible. This is preferable to them than assiduously paying bills and monitoring their credit, saving over time by delaying gratification for the purpose of purchasing appreciating assets.

    Additionally, having children by different mothers and fathers is not a recipe for building wealth across generations.

    Don’t you get it?
    FACTS DON’T MATTER.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    "That's hypocritical" the conservative says as he's loaded on a train by a communist to a Dakota gulag.
  102. @Alec Leamas

    For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents.
     
    Where is the evidence that the typical white household "holds" money from inheritance? Who believes that the $0.90 difference is attributable to intergenerational wealth transfers to white families?

    Part of the problem in making apples to apples comparisons is that many blacks have a negative net worth. They have some stuff - usually depreciating assets - but owe debts that are usually uncollectible. This is preferable to them than assiduously paying bills and monitoring their credit, saving over time by delaying gratification for the purpose of purchasing appreciating assets.

    Additionally, having children by different mothers and fathers is not a recipe for building wealth across generations.

    Agreed, Alec, especially on your 2nd paragraph. It’s whites and others too (probably not a whole lot of Chinese, though) that do that same thing, living paycheck-to-paycheck, but not at the same rates. Just to guess, I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half of black actual families (even with a Dad) live this way and probably 3/4 of the singles and black female-headed “households”

    That’s why the gentleman’s comment above about averages vs. medians (what I think he was getting at) is important. I wonder if this factoid used (with the 10%) is, in fact, a calculation on only those who do have positive assets to begin with, which makes the real case for blacks even sadder.

    I know a black guy who has a very decent business. He can make $3,000 cash in one day, and keep most of that after paying off his guys (he’s pretty cheap about it) and his equipment, which he doesn’t take care of too well. Even so, he can’t handle money worth a crap, per a friend who lent him some for his truck. Who knows where he stands, in reality or on the books.

  103. Anonymous[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @OilcanFloyd
    Just like holocaust reparations, it'll never end. What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel's neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles? How much is that per Jewish victim? Probably far more than any would have been worth, except for a Rothschild, and they seem to have made it through the war ok.

    Is there enough money, land, and perks to pay off blacks? They are far more numerous than Jews. Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn't seem fair that I would.

    Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.

    Blacks have benefited from slavery. Do they have better lives than they would have had in Africa? Do some owe their very existence to slavery?

    Therefore, if anyone should pay, you should pay.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    I don't get the logic there. I'm not black, if that's what you are thinking.
  104. @Anon
    Will they adjust the figure to take into account the amount of reparations thus far issued? The worth of affirmative action? The black women in the middle class because of government jobs they are not the best qualified for? The value of the time of white people wasted at the DMV? The lost income from white people that didn't get into prestigious universities?

    Yes, but that’s the GENIUS of affirmative action. None knows who the marginal white person (who might have competed with elite white people) was who was turned aside for an affirmatively-actioned person is. The benefits accrue to the “talented tenth” who are rewarded spots at the expense of middling whites and now top-level Asians, but they mostly accrue to the elite who do not have to compete with striver whites and Asians.

    Thomas Sowell made the point that, if redress to African Americans must be made, that reparations are much fairer as EVERYONE pays them, not just the marginal whites (and now Asians) screwed over by affirmative action, and almost all descendants of slaves receive them, not just the talented tenth who get most of the benefits of AA today.

  105. Anonymous[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jon
    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.

    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.

    Please explicate your argument. I do not understand it.

  106. Anonymous[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paul
    Any reparations payments should start with Africans paying them. African tribes sold captured members of other tribes (with whom they were warring) into slavery rather then murdering them as is African tradition. (They did not have P.O.W. camps.) All U.S. aid to Africa should be ended until Africa pays reparations. That would also help save the American taxpayer (of any race) money. Who could be against that?

    rather then murdering them as is African tradition. (They did not have P.O.W. camps.)

    Citation please?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    African tribes used to eat thier captives. They then realised they could get more value selling them to Arab and White slavers. Mungo Park etc.
  107. @tsotha

    … For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents.
     
    I don't believe that for a second. It may be true as an average if you include people like Warren Buffett, but there's no way the typical white household has ten times as much money as the typical black household. Most people just don't have that much money, white or black.

    Median versus mean is an interesting discussion. The median household has $5000 saved for retirement. So when Hillary wondered how people could vote for Trump, as he would cause a crash in the stock market, well, um, half the people don’t HAVE any skin in that game.

    The fact that that is dangerous to a society’s continuation is something she entirely missed.

  108. Do these reparations payments take into account, and deduct from the total amount, the expenses in shelter, food, clothing, and medical care the slaveholder paid out to support his chattel property? Just asking.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Good point. But don't make it in the presence of you liberal in-laws. They will never speak to you again. Unless of course.....
  109. @Digital Samizdat

    Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.
     
    And think of how the existence of slavery negatively affected the wages of poor whites. Demand for them was artificially lower--hence, so were their wages--because the planters had an ample supply of slaves already. Abraham Lincoln himself once made this point in a debate with Stephen Douglas:

    "Labor is like any other commodity in the market—increase the demand for it and you increase the price of it. Reduce the supply of black labor by colonizing the black laborer out of the country, and by precisely so much you increase the demand for and wages of white labor."
     
    (We can also see from this what Lincoln's original position of the freedmen was: they should be repatriated to Africa.)

    Exactly. And it’s not just small farmers who were harmed, since slave owners often rented out slaves to work away from the plantations as laborers, craftsmen, construction workers, etc., depressing the wages of many whites who were not small farmers or farm laborers.

    The unfair competition with slaves was a real bone of contention for many whites in the South, and easily destroys any argument that most whites supported slavery or benefited from slavery.

    I don’t owe blacks, or anyone else, a dime, and I resent anyone else claiming I do. If reparations were funded voluntarily, I doubt that much money would be collected.

    I don’t know what the future of this country is, but forcing everyone together, and importing a whole extra population isn’t working out. There has to be some way to peacefully untangle this mess, send many legal and illegal immigrants home where they belong, and allow the rest of us to separate. I can specifically live without Jews and blacks.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    'I can specifically live without Jews and blacks.'

    Ah but my friend heres the rub:

    They cannot live without you.

    They are both parasitic on other groups/races of people principally the White race. After the White induced population boom most Africans in Africa are dependent on high yield crops, White medical care etc.

    If Whites decided to relocate to another planet the blacks and Jews would be banging on the spacecraft door at the launchpad, telling us we are racist for not letting them in.

  110. @jon

    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
     
    I mentioned "since the Civil War" in my post, but it's not like the South's economy was rocking before the war. They were already well behind, despite all that "stolen wealth" that the slaves provided. Here is a site I found with a bunch of stats/graphs showing the discrepancy:

    http://www.rtimager.org/north-vs-south-economy-civil-war/

    Behind relative to the North, but so was much of the world after the Civil War. After the war, the South was largely used as cheap labor and as a supplier of cheap raw materials. The North got the system they fought for.

  111. @International Jew

    What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?
     
    Doesn't look like you bothered to do any research.

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that's about $6 billion in today's dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.

    Surely it was only 5,999,998 …

    https://twistedsifter.com/2019/05/holocaust-survivors-in-same-line-at-auschwitz-meet-72-years-later/

    Wait. So there were survivors … and they lived at least another 72 years.

    Sounds like a summer camp.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    It's not an easy thing to do, but you have dishonored David Irving who, for all his faults, at least tried to make some sense.
  112. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Since it appears descendants of "whites" who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Whites who turned up in the US after the Civil War can’t just pick choose, they have take the good and the bad. America’s wealth, laws, housing, infrastructure were well established before the Civil War.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Don't forget about the wifi. Wifi was also well established.
  113. @AnotherDad


    To really get a sense of just how much value was taken from the slaves and their descendants, one just has to look at how far ahead, economically, the slave states have been since the Civil War.
     
    That’s more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.
     
    No it is not.

    It's a bunch of different things:
    -- Lower human capital overall.
    -- Climate burden
    -- Disease burden
    -- Resource differential for industrialization (easier access to coal, iron, easier transport of same)
    -- Path dependence--north started on the industrial path, generally easier to continue it, vs. existing cotton economy

    War destruction itself is pretty transient and was highly uneven across the South from substantial to completely non-existent.

    The South was developing industrially prior to the war, just at a different rate. I don’t have any love for the plantation system, but the North enforced the system they fought for after the war where the South was used for cheap raw materials, and the North made money from shipping and finished goods. Wood and naval stores were as much a part of the equation as cotton, and generated more money after the boll weavils and blights. The South also had good access to coal throughout southern Appalachia.

    The war destruction and the takeover of the economy by northern interests was a big deal, even accounting for climate and the general stupidity of the population.

  114. @J.Ross
    Eighty-year-old WWII vet thanked for defeating actual fascism. Oh no, wait, he had a milkshake thrown at him because he voted according to his beliefs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/23/army-veteran-attacked-milkshake-outside-polling-station-wearing/

    That people in WW2 were fighting fascism would have been news to them. British soldiers believed they were fighting for Britain and its interests. Anyway the word ‘fascist’ was adopted by the Comintern instead of ‘Nazism’ because ‘Nazism’ tended to remind people of the Nazi-Soviet pact.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Anyway the word ‘fascist’ was adopted by the Comintern instead of ‘Nazism’ because ‘Nazism’ tended to remind people of the Nazi-Soviet pact.
     
    The proper term was and is NATIONAL SOCIALISM. "Nazi" and "Nazism" are artificial terms to cover up the SOCIALIST aspect of the movement.

    Much to the chagrin of capitalists who had sponsored them, the National Socialists were indeed socialist in substance and introduced numerous socialist policies.

  115. I’m predicting reparations will come in the form of partial grants to purchase homes since that is where the wealth gap usually lies. Wall Street Bankers will altruistically step in to provide the loans to cover the balance of any purchase. Of course, the rates will be far above the market and be predatory in nature just like in pre 2008. It will be pitched to non-Blacks as a huge boost to the economy since real estate prices will artificially rise. Ten years later the homes will be foreclosed on, and the Bankers will be richer than ever.

  116. @El Dato
    Irredentist ex-super-oligarch and Hollywood scenario provider Khodorkovsky says Putin has a plan (sounds suspiciously like something Muhammar El Ghaddafi might come up with but not actually implement):

    NBC Claims Russians Plan To Give African Americans Combat Training

    (Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord — and violence — in the U.S.)

    On Monday NBC news reported "Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord and violence in the US." The claim is that these documents are communications between associates of Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is described as a "Kremlin linked oligarch indicted by special counsel Robert Mueller." The documents were obtained by the Dossier Center, a London based investigative project funded by exiled Russian opposition leader Mikhail Khodorkovsky. NBC News admitted they have not independently verified the documents.

    These communications, which NBC says are light on detail, suggest a plan to recruit African Americans and transport them to camps in Africa "for combat prep and training in sabotage."

    The plan, entitled "Development Strategy of a Pan-African State on U.S. Territory," proposed to recruit poor and disenfranchised African Americans "who have experience in organized crime groups" and members of "radical black movements for participation in civil disobedience actions."

    After the training in Africa, they would be sent back to America with hopes of them fomenting violence and working to develop a pan-African state in the South. The goal is to "destabilize the internal situation in the US."
     
    "A pan-African state in the South". Yeah, that sounds like a top plan. Why not Illinois?

    No doubt (((Russians))) have been agitating the blacks. Bolshevik tactic to accuse others first of what you yourself are doing.

  117. @black sea
    I wanna say one word to you . . . just one word.

    Yes sir.

    Are you listening?

    Yes I am.

    Chrome rims.


    (OK, it's two words, but whatever.)

    Chrome rims.

    (OK, it’s two words, but whatever.

    Great! But here’s ONE word: “Spinnaz.”

  118. @Digital Samizdat

    Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.
     
    And think of how the existence of slavery negatively affected the wages of poor whites. Demand for them was artificially lower--hence, so were their wages--because the planters had an ample supply of slaves already. Abraham Lincoln himself once made this point in a debate with Stephen Douglas:

    "Labor is like any other commodity in the market—increase the demand for it and you increase the price of it. Reduce the supply of black labor by colonizing the black laborer out of the country, and by precisely so much you increase the demand for and wages of white labor."
     
    (We can also see from this what Lincoln's original position of the freedmen was: they should be repatriated to Africa.)

    Slaves were rented out for coal mining, construction, digging ditches, laying track, and everything in between, and they were used to keep labor prices low. Whoever thinks slavery was a popular institution among the masses is ignoring human nature.

  119. @anon


    Given the significant number of middle class and rich who can’t successfully manage to use a financial windfall properly it’s not unreasonable to expect an enormous percentage of the less-educated to pretty much blow it, and to ruin their lives while doing so.
     
    I smell an opportunity here. If every Negro in America gets $80,000 in cash, and if 90% of them blow it in a fortnight, I want to be there when it happens.

    If every Negro in America gets $80,000 in cash, and if 90% of them blow it in a fortnight, I want to be there when it happens.

    I 100% agree. I support this plan. It would be hilarious to watch and live through—I’d feel like an extra in Brewster’s Millions.

  120. @J.Ross
    Eighty-year-old WWII vet thanked for defeating actual fascism. Oh no, wait, he had a milkshake thrown at him because he voted according to his beliefs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/23/army-veteran-attacked-milkshake-outside-polling-station-wearing/

    It’s funny how in our mental profile an 80 year old vet must be a WWII vet but of course as the other pointed out, WWII vets nowadays are much older – even the youngest are upwards of 90. 80 is even too young for Korean vets. 80 will soon be a typical age for Vietnam vets.

    The median Vietnam vet is 69 today but many are older (and many have died of old age). The big buildup of US troops started in ’65 and the average grunt was 19 (much younger than in WWII when they took everyone) so the average enlisted man sent in ’65 would be 73 now, but the average Vietnam era junior officer would be pushing 80.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    I know a WWII vet who hit the beaches of France on D-Day. He's now 94 and going strong. Lots of Cherokee blood in him.

    The tough thing about living that long is all your friends and your spouse(s) die. I heard an ancient pastor preach a sermon where he talked about burying too many friends and relatives. He said, "The next funeral, I just want to jump into the grave and go right along with them."
  121. @anon
    Cotton production in the South was back above pre-war levels not too long into Recontstrution, so yes, the war devastation, though severe in many areas, was not the determining factor.

    Path Dependence is an interesting idea. I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century. You would see this nowhere in my home state of Arkansas. I was struck with how rich and powerful the North must have been at this time. Once you have money and Big Mo on your side, big things happen.

    I disagree on the burden of climate. Your nasty winters are a burden. Our soft summers are a luxury.

    Little Rock has many older mansions post civil War.

  122. @Wilkey
    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    'The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory' - or something along those lines.

    I remember reading a children's book, or perhaps just an encyclopedia article, comparing the wealth and industry of the South at the start of the war to that of the North. I've forgotten most of the precise details, but it left a strong impression that remains with me even today. That impression is of how little wealth was actually created by slave labor. One specific I remember is that of all the factories in the U.S. at the start of the war only 15% were in the South.

    The vast majority of this nation's wealth was created by the factories in the North and the ingenuity that built them and ran them, not by planting and growing crops that could just as easily have been planted and grown anywhere else. Of course some of that industry was fed by the plantations in the South...but not the cannon factories.

    So there's a certain irony here. If slave labor had produced as much wealth as the proponents of reparations pretend it did, the South probably would have been rich enough to have won its independence, and blacks might still be slaves.

    In any country (except for those like the modern US with highly mechanized agriculture), agriculture produces much less wealth than industry, despite employing a larger sector of the population. One cotton plantation might require hundreds of slaves and require hundreds of acres of land but produce only a modest amount of cotton by dollar value (you needed the slaves or the economics didn’t work out – it would have cost more in free labor than the cotton was worth). One cotton mill in New England with the same # of free laborers and only occupying a tiny footprint could produce vastly more cotton cloth by value.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    New England has rocky soil and long winters. It's somewhere on the linked site below, but I thought NE tried and failed at raising cotton. Maybe the New Englanders learned valuable lessons about cotton production and managing slaves, and just moved production South. It's not unheard of for plantation owners in the South to have roots in the North.

    http://slavenorth.com/slavenorth.htm
  123. @ScarletNumber

    For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents. It is this cumulative effect that justifies the payment of reparations to descendants of slaves long dead, supporters say.
     
    In English class, this was called a non sequitur.

    Non sequitur, Latin for “It does not follow,” means “I enjoy ‘white privilege’ today.”

    (/sarcasm)

  124. Anon[780] • Disclaimer says:
    @International Jew

    What is the value of all the money, assets, land, aid of all sorts, etc. combined that has been extracted from Europeans, Americans, Palestinians, Israel’s neighbors, and others, to reimburse Jews for their troubles?
     
    Doesn't look like you bothered to do any research.

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that's about $6 billion in today's dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.

    Germany paid Israel 3 billion Marks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
    Adjusting for the exchange rate and inflation, that’s about $6 billion in today’s dollars. So about a thousand bucks per victim.

    When the “victim” tally is an oft changed pre WWII invention, the difference between $1,000 per and nothing is everything.

  125. Anon[153] • Disclaimer says:

    Be me.
    Be of Scottish and German ancestry.

    My family has accrued nothing inter-generationally, other than a slowly-increasing and hard-earned ability to raise children that can achieve better training for ever-better jobs. (ie: utility technician to middle school teacher, teacher to mid-level hospital professional, mid-level hospital worker to doctor / lawyer, etc).

    This is in spite of any better potential in any generation, given probable IQ (ie: my eighth grade educated great grandfather who was a sought after industrial foreman who built his daughter’s house from the ground up with her husband, and who made and sold parts to companies from his home built machine shop in the large garage behind the house).

    What to achieve and how to get there is very much cultural information that is realized in any generation’s work and social environment (that is now much better democratized due to the internet).

    Parental academic achievement is the only way to have the knowledge to instruct children on how to do slightly better academically speaking. There are wunderkinds who do figure it out on their own, but they are not the norm. Habits are taught. Lifestyle decisions are made by parents. Kids know nothing in that regard.

    With ever better outcomes (at least in terms of economics, and ignoring social outcomes that are declining everywhere) comes an ever better sense of responsibility to the next generation’s outcome.

    For us currently, there are no meaningful inheritances other than cultural items. The best that we get is a cosign on a loan.

    In the process of this slow inter-generational self-improvement, my family has been ravaged by war in each generation, as well as the tremendous inter-generational fallout from both its physical and psychological damage (ie: being raised by an slightly psychotic alcoholic Marine vet who died an early death due to war injury vs. anyone else, etc).

    As payment, we weather the racial attacks (both political and physical) and disadvantages that come with living in proximity to large populations of Blacks and the Jews who hate us and use them as a proxy army against us.

    Black reparations are one hundred percent whine from welfare queens and their enablers for more unearned welfare at our hard earned expense. Its a war on us more so than help for them (because it very obviously will not help them in the long run unless it is a permanent payment).

    Reparations are an essential admission that Blacks both can not and will not do the work and overcome similar or less obstacles than White families, like my own, to slowly better our lots in this dystopia.

    Our process is available to everyone here (many do it better). The highest educational attainment is now available to everyone here.

    There are no more excuses for being mired in the ghetto generation after generation, other than an inherent lack of ability to do anything else.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Reparations are an essential admission that Blacks both can not and will not do the work and overcome similar or less obstacles than White families, like my own, to slowly better our lots in this dystopia.
     
    They did it fine for several generations until LBJ decided to lock up the N*gger (his words) vote for his party for a hundred years at the expense of what made America great and was steadily improving the lives of black Americans.
  126. @Jack D
    In any country (except for those like the modern US with highly mechanized agriculture), agriculture produces much less wealth than industry, despite employing a larger sector of the population. One cotton plantation might require hundreds of slaves and require hundreds of acres of land but produce only a modest amount of cotton by dollar value (you needed the slaves or the economics didn't work out - it would have cost more in free labor than the cotton was worth). One cotton mill in New England with the same # of free laborers and only occupying a tiny footprint could produce vastly more cotton cloth by value.

    New England has rocky soil and long winters. It’s somewhere on the linked site below, but I thought NE tried and failed at raising cotton. Maybe the New Englanders learned valuable lessons about cotton production and managing slaves, and just moved production South. It’s not unheard of for plantation owners in the South to have roots in the North.

    http://slavenorth.com/slavenorth.htm

  127. @El Dato
    Irredentist ex-super-oligarch and Hollywood scenario provider Khodorkovsky says Putin has a plan (sounds suspiciously like something Muhammar El Ghaddafi might come up with but not actually implement):

    NBC Claims Russians Plan To Give African Americans Combat Training

    (Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord — and violence — in the U.S.)

    On Monday NBC news reported "Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord and violence in the US." The claim is that these documents are communications between associates of Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is described as a "Kremlin linked oligarch indicted by special counsel Robert Mueller." The documents were obtained by the Dossier Center, a London based investigative project funded by exiled Russian opposition leader Mikhail Khodorkovsky. NBC News admitted they have not independently verified the documents.

    These communications, which NBC says are light on detail, suggest a plan to recruit African Americans and transport them to camps in Africa "for combat prep and training in sabotage."

    The plan, entitled "Development Strategy of a Pan-African State on U.S. Territory," proposed to recruit poor and disenfranchised African Americans "who have experience in organized crime groups" and members of "radical black movements for participation in civil disobedience actions."

    After the training in Africa, they would be sent back to America with hopes of them fomenting violence and working to develop a pan-African state in the South. The goal is to "destabilize the internal situation in the US."
     
    "A pan-African state in the South". Yeah, that sounds like a top plan. Why not Illinois?

    The Obama faction of the Democratic Party has yet another grievance against Russia. First Putin elects Trump, now he plagiarizes their 2020 campaign platform.

  128. a one-time reparations payment

    That’s a good one, Steve!

  129. @Wilkey
    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    'The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory' - or something along those lines.

    I remember reading a children's book, or perhaps just an encyclopedia article, comparing the wealth and industry of the South at the start of the war to that of the North. I've forgotten most of the precise details, but it left a strong impression that remains with me even today. That impression is of how little wealth was actually created by slave labor. One specific I remember is that of all the factories in the U.S. at the start of the war only 15% were in the South.

    The vast majority of this nation's wealth was created by the factories in the North and the ingenuity that built them and ran them, not by planting and growing crops that could just as easily have been planted and grown anywhere else. Of course some of that industry was fed by the plantations in the South...but not the cannon factories.

    So there's a certain irony here. If slave labor had produced as much wealth as the proponents of reparations pretend it did, the South probably would have been rich enough to have won its independence, and blacks might still be slaves.

    ‘The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory’ – or something along those lines.

    If it weren’t for the damn tariffs, we could import those cannon from our friendly allies, not despicable fellow/former citizens!

  130. @anon
    Cotton production in the South was back above pre-war levels not too long into Recontstrution, so yes, the war devastation, though severe in many areas, was not the determining factor.

    Path Dependence is an interesting idea. I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century. You would see this nowhere in my home state of Arkansas. I was struck with how rich and powerful the North must have been at this time. Once you have money and Big Mo on your side, big things happen.

    I disagree on the burden of climate. Your nasty winters are a burden. Our soft summers are a luxury.

    I disagree on the burden of climate. Your nasty winters are a burden. Our soft summers are a luxury.

    In absolute terms, yes.

    But humans had mostly solved–for limited spaces–the “too cold” problem, by putting on layers of clothes and–for limited spaces–with combustion.

    You could heat a factory–somewhat. Sun windows and machinery help heat it a bit as well. (Or if it’s a foundry, no need to heat at all!) And if it’s a bit cool, workers bundle up and in the cool, naturally want to be moving, doing stuff.

    But heat makes people
    a) not want to work–not be energetic (“sluggish”)
    b) not think very clearly/well.
    And a confined factory with machines, or worse, some heating process, the heat is worse. So in the summer in the South, people … don’t want to do much. And we didn’t really have any great way to fix that.

    You’ll note that the big breakout of the South, the “Sunbelt” was after AC. If i’m going to actually think clearly to engineer something or do it well, i want to be at a comfortable temperature.

  131. @Jack D
    It's funny how in our mental profile an 80 year old vet must be a WWII vet but of course as the other pointed out, WWII vets nowadays are much older - even the youngest are upwards of 90. 80 is even too young for Korean vets. 80 will soon be a typical age for Vietnam vets.

    The median Vietnam vet is 69 today but many are older (and many have died of old age). The big buildup of US troops started in '65 and the average grunt was 19 (much younger than in WWII when they took everyone) so the average enlisted man sent in '65 would be 73 now, but the average Vietnam era junior officer would be pushing 80.

    I know a WWII vet who hit the beaches of France on D-Day. He’s now 94 and going strong. Lots of Cherokee blood in him.

    The tough thing about living that long is all your friends and your spouse(s) die. I heard an ancient pastor preach a sermon where he talked about burying too many friends and relatives. He said, “The next funeral, I just want to jump into the grave and go right along with them.”

  132. @Paul
    Any reparations payments should start with Africans paying them. African tribes sold captured members of other tribes (with whom they were warring) into slavery rather then murdering them as is African tradition. (They did not have P.O.W. camps.) All U.S. aid to Africa should be ended until Africa pays reparations. That would also help save the American taxpayer (of any race) money. Who could be against that?

    “African tribes sold captured members of other tribes (with whom they were warring) into slavery rather then murdering them as is African tradition.”

    An “inconvenient truth” as our esteemed former VP Gore might say.

    I wonder if Genius T-N Coates ever responded to this.

  133. What are reparations? It never seems to be mentioned that there have been reparations often in the past but that the meaning of the term was somewhat different than that assumed by black activists. .

    For example in the first and second Opium Wars, the triumphant British demanded reparations from the defeated Chinese for the opium that the Chinese authorities had destroyed in an effort to spare their population from the scourge of opium addiction. The British had beaten the Chinese through better artillery at every engagement. The Chinese could not defend themselves from the conquering British so they were forced to pay reparations. The Chinese lost the wars and suffered being subjected to enforced drug addiction plus they had to pay the British heavy reparations for trying to defend themselves.

    This same usage is seen in the better known case of the post-WWI peace settlement at Versailles. The Germans were forced to pay twenty billion gold marks. Many historians credit the German resentment over the reparations as contributing to the rise of the Nazis.

    So the meaning of reparations is the enforced payment of money by the losers of a war or armed conflict imposed by the winners that often leads to lingering resentment among the defeated. Reparations do not – from the testimony of history – seem to have been an instrument for justice. Rather it seems to merely be a way for victors to take further revenge on the losers.

    Did the blacks in America defeat the whites?

    America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery. We did so at a terrible cost. Slavery had been the standard practice virtually everywhere on Earth since the Neolithic Revolution. The British and then the Americans – mostly Quakers and other dissident Christian groups – led the way to the elimination of chattel slavery almost everywhere.

    The blacks who are calling for reparations seem to misunderstand the history and the meaning of the term.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Travis
    good point. Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War , leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families. Sad that the families who made the ultimate sacrifice fighting to end slavery will now be forced to pay reparations to the families they freed from bondage.. No good deed goes unpunished.
    , @ThreeCranes
    Dang good comment. You can count on muddle-headed liberals to get the whole thing bass ackwards.
    , @Desiderius
    It’s not the blacks who matter, it’s the whites who won the culture war (thanks to nitwits like Boethiuss and our managerial class being unaware it was even going on) and are now looking to get paid.

    Conventional, run-of-the-mill reparations.
    , @Anonymous
    QUOTE: America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery.

    Not correct. There was no slavery in Britain proper in the 1800s, nor anywhere in Western Europe. Britain abolished slavery throughout its empire by passing "the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, with exceptions provided for the East India Company, Ceylon, and Saint Helena. These exceptions were eliminated in 1843." (Infogalactic)

    , @Svigor
    The timeline of British abolition is amusing. TL;DR version:

    1. Britain loses her colonies, and thus all the lovely slave revenue therefrom, to independence.
    2. Britain suddenly "grows a conscience" and abolishes the thing that's no longer a source of revenue for her, but has become very profitable for her former colonies/current rival.
    3. Piracy Privateering ensues.

    Still, the point remains; nobody else forced it - Britain did.

  134. • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Diversity in action!!

    Past members

    Reparata (Mary Aiese O'Leary)
    Nanette Licari
    Regina Gallagher
    Anne Fitzgerald
    Sheila Reilly
    Carol Drobnicki (deceased)
    Kathy Romeo
    Marge McGuire
    Lorraine Mazzola
    Cooky Sirico
    Lauren Stich
    Judy Jae
     
  135. @ScarletNumber

    For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents. It is this cumulative effect that justifies the payment of reparations to descendants of slaves long dead, supporters say.
     
    In English class, this was called a non sequitur.

    Stop making sense. If you are white, you’re even more guilty and reprehensible for showing-off your white privilege of critical-thinking skills.

  136. Anonymous[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wilkey
    The notion that American blacks, or a signfiicant portion of them, could actually end up poorer after reparations are paid isn't all that far-fetched. Just consider what happens to a considerable number or people after they receive a windfall: decreased work ethic, waste on substance abuse, the belief they will never have to work (or work very hard) again, causing them to give the bird to their employers and lose their jobs, ad infinitum. And if the government goes broke after paying out ~$3 trillion in reparations then, well, their goes the pensions for the significant share of the black middle class that exists due to government employment. Or if payment of reparations is contingent on the elimination of certain forms of welfare, affirmative action, etc., then they really are hosed, with a reduced income stream after the windfall has been spent.

    Given the significant number of middle class and rich who can't successfully manage to use a financial windfall properly it's not unreasonable to expect an enormous percentage of the less-educated to pretty much blow it, and to ruin their lives while doing so.

    This is a very good reply. Think of lottery winners who go broke. Reparations given on such a scale should only come with paternalism.

    Pretty much all blacks would reject it though.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Reparations given on such a scale should only come with paternalism.
     
    No, with repatriation.
  137. @KL
    Genetic analysis show that over one third of African-American men have a white male ancestor from Civil War times. Will they pay reparations to themselves?

    Over 90% do. You are confusing direct male lineage for male ancestors in general.

  138. Anonymous[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    As I stated before there *was* a program of reparations given to freed slaves, as recompense, by the US Government and other official bodies immediately after emancipation.

    It was the 'Colonization Scheme' - by which the injury inflicted upon black Africans by their forced removal and enslavement by Americans was remedied - that is the typical 'civil remedy' of putting the injured party back to to their previous circumstances - by resettling emancipated slaves in their own sovereign African republics under the paternalistic aegis of the USA.

    The fact that Liberia failed and failed disastrously, is another story.

    The American colonisation society was started by private citizens decades before rhe civil war and never recieved direct government funding.

  139. @the one they call Desanex
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn3FU9vfuGI

    Diversity in action!!

    Past members

    Reparata (Mary Aiese O’Leary)
    Nanette Licari
    Regina Gallagher
    Anne Fitzgerald
    Sheila Reilly
    Carol Drobnicki (deceased)
    Kathy Romeo
    Marge McGuire
    Lorraine Mazzola
    Cooky Sirico
    Lauren Stich
    Judy Jae

  140. @Anonymous
    This is a very good reply. Think of lottery winners who go broke. Reparations given on such a scale should only come with paternalism.

    Pretty much all blacks would reject it though.

    Reparations given on such a scale should only come with paternalism.

    No, with repatriation.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In this instance I was talking about what would be the benefit to the recipients but yes repatriation would be ideal for Whites.
  141. Anonymous[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    rather then murdering them as is African tradition. (They did not have P.O.W. camps.)
     
    Citation please?

    African tribes used to eat thier captives. They then realised they could get more value selling them to Arab and White slavers. Mungo Park etc.

  142. @Anonymous

    Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls. The return of the racial wealth gap would then be used to demand another, bigger reparations handout, ad infinitum.
     
    Right. 80k is nothing considering black spending habits. Luxury cars are typically 50k+, so more than half of the 80k would be gone almost immediately.

    Moreover, the average black thinks "reparations" means becoming a multi-millionaire at the least. That's the lifestyle he envisions reparations would provide. If it turns out to be a paltry 80k, most of which is immediately spent away, he will be disappointed and think that he's been cheated somehow. It will lead to further agitation.

    Agreed. And the quoted section is exactly what would happen. Nobody with an understanding of basic economics believes a one-time payment would solve the problem. Truth be told, such a process wouldn’t help many non-black’s long-term either; the result would be the same. But, this isn’t really about “reparations” or justice. It’s just a front.

  143. Anonymous[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @OilcanFloyd
    Exactly. And it's not just small farmers who were harmed, since slave owners often rented out slaves to work away from the plantations as laborers, craftsmen, construction workers, etc., depressing the wages of many whites who were not small farmers or farm laborers.

    The unfair competition with slaves was a real bone of contention for many whites in the South, and easily destroys any argument that most whites supported slavery or benefited from slavery.

    I don't owe blacks, or anyone else, a dime, and I resent anyone else claiming I do. If reparations were funded voluntarily, I doubt that much money would be collected.

    I don't know what the future of this country is, but forcing everyone together, and importing a whole extra population isn't working out. There has to be some way to peacefully untangle this mess, send many legal and illegal immigrants home where they belong, and allow the rest of us to separate. I can specifically live without Jews and blacks.

    ‘I can specifically live without Jews and blacks.’

    Ah but my friend heres the rub:

    They cannot live without you.

    They are both parasitic on other groups/races of people principally the White race. After the White induced population boom most Africans in Africa are dependent on high yield crops, White medical care etc.

    If Whites decided to relocate to another planet the blacks and Jews would be banging on the spacecraft door at the launchpad, telling us we are racist for not letting them in.

  144. Anonymous[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Reparations given on such a scale should only come with paternalism.
     
    No, with repatriation.

    In this instance I was talking about what would be the benefit to the recipients but yes repatriation would be ideal for Whites.

  145. @Pat Boyle
    What are reparations? It never seems to be mentioned that there have been reparations often in the past but that the meaning of the term was somewhat different than that assumed by black activists. .

    For example in the first and second Opium Wars, the triumphant British demanded reparations from the defeated Chinese for the opium that the Chinese authorities had destroyed in an effort to spare their population from the scourge of opium addiction. The British had beaten the Chinese through better artillery at every engagement. The Chinese could not defend themselves from the conquering British so they were forced to pay reparations. The Chinese lost the wars and suffered being subjected to enforced drug addiction plus they had to pay the British heavy reparations for trying to defend themselves.

    This same usage is seen in the better known case of the post-WWI peace settlement at Versailles. The Germans were forced to pay twenty billion gold marks. Many historians credit the German resentment over the reparations as contributing to the rise of the Nazis.

    So the meaning of reparations is the enforced payment of money by the losers of a war or armed conflict imposed by the winners that often leads to lingering resentment among the defeated. Reparations do not - from the testimony of history - seem to have been an instrument for justice. Rather it seems to merely be a way for victors to take further revenge on the losers.

    Did the blacks in America defeat the whites?

    America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery. We did so at a terrible cost. Slavery had been the standard practice virtually everywhere on Earth since the Neolithic Revolution. The British and then the Americans - mostly Quakers and other dissident Christian groups - led the way to the elimination of chattel slavery almost everywhere.

    The blacks who are calling for reparations seem to misunderstand the history and the meaning of the term.

    good point. Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War , leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families. Sad that the families who made the ultimate sacrifice fighting to end slavery will now be forced to pay reparations to the families they freed from bondage.. No good deed goes unpunished.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War, leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families.
     
    That's on the descendants of the citizens and soldiers of the Northern states. They chose to fight an oppressive, imperial war to quash the South's desire for independence and to subjugate the Southern people. Then they paid themselves generous pensions out of the empire's coffers.

    If anyone is deserving of reparations it is the descendants of Confedrate citizens and soldiers. And that's on either the Federal government or the descendants of citizens and soldiers of the Northern states.
    , @William Badwhite
    They could have just minded their own business. The ones that volunteered anyway.
    , @Svigor
    Aggressors should be paid by their victims. Interesting "morality" you have there.
  146. @anon
    He would've been seven at the conclusion of WWII. I know there are child soldiers in Africa, but I wasn't aware that the Brits were drafting seven-year-olds to fight the Nazis.
    The article actually says he joined paratroopers in 1960, but perhaps he was already a 15-year Army veteran by then.

    He could have been one of the commandos who went back in time to kill Hitler.

  147. @anon
    Cotton production in the South was back above pre-war levels not too long into Recontstrution, so yes, the war devastation, though severe in many areas, was not the determining factor.

    Path Dependence is an interesting idea. I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century. You would see this nowhere in my home state of Arkansas. I was struck with how rich and powerful the North must have been at this time. Once you have money and Big Mo on your side, big things happen.

    I disagree on the burden of climate. Your nasty winters are a burden. Our soft summers are a luxury.

    I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century.

    Summit Avenue. That’s about it for the whole city. Far from typical.

    Railroad baron James J Hill built what is arguably the only true mansion on the five-mile strip:

    The private James J Hill Library (physically but not institutionally attached to the city library) has a letter from Andrew Carnegie chiding the locals for asking him to pay for a building when they had Hill. Hill must have been embarrassed by this, because he did build it. Carnegie sprung for a few of the branches.

    Hill also had a less affluent man, John Armstrong, evicted from the summit so he could build his own house. Armstrong built another downtown, but I wouldn’t call anything that can be picked up and moved whole, as it was in 2001, a “mansion”.

    Despite these marks on his record, Hill was probably the most honest and least arrogant of all the railroad barons.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    James J Hill was a total stud. He built his business empire and the Great Northern with smarts, hustle and hard work--not corporate land-grant welfare from the feds.

    For those interested in such things, there's a nice little historical hike--the Iron Goat Trail--to be had off US2 on the west side of Stevens Pass, just west of where the BNSF mainline--leaving the Cascade Tunnel--runs under the highway. The trail leads up through and around a bunch of the Great Northern tunnels and works in use prior to the modern 1928 tunnel. You can work your way up--directly (hiking a bunch of switchbacks) or via the railbed and walk through the 1/4 mile curving tunnel around the ridge above that was built in 1914 after the 1910 avalanche disaster up the line at Wellington just outside the old Cascade Tunnel. (A good book on the avalanche--the worst in the US for loss of life--is "The White Cascade".)

    After the avalanche the Great Northern started work on the current Cascade Tunnel. (At just shy of eight miles it was for years the longest rail tunnel in the Americas, but the Canadians passed it with a tunnel at Rogers Pass back in the 80s.)

    Watching a train head out of the Cascade Tunnel is kinda fun. There's usually a Westbound freight that comes out in the early evening, that i'd take first my kids--later scouts--to watch if we were hiking in the area during the day.

  148. @Hubbub
    Do these reparations payments take into account, and deduct from the total amount, the expenses in shelter, food, clothing, and medical care the slaveholder paid out to support his chattel property? Just asking.

    Good point. But don’t make it in the presence of you liberal in-laws. They will never speak to you again. Unless of course…..

  149. @Pat Boyle
    What are reparations? It never seems to be mentioned that there have been reparations often in the past but that the meaning of the term was somewhat different than that assumed by black activists. .

    For example in the first and second Opium Wars, the triumphant British demanded reparations from the defeated Chinese for the opium that the Chinese authorities had destroyed in an effort to spare their population from the scourge of opium addiction. The British had beaten the Chinese through better artillery at every engagement. The Chinese could not defend themselves from the conquering British so they were forced to pay reparations. The Chinese lost the wars and suffered being subjected to enforced drug addiction plus they had to pay the British heavy reparations for trying to defend themselves.

    This same usage is seen in the better known case of the post-WWI peace settlement at Versailles. The Germans were forced to pay twenty billion gold marks. Many historians credit the German resentment over the reparations as contributing to the rise of the Nazis.

    So the meaning of reparations is the enforced payment of money by the losers of a war or armed conflict imposed by the winners that often leads to lingering resentment among the defeated. Reparations do not - from the testimony of history - seem to have been an instrument for justice. Rather it seems to merely be a way for victors to take further revenge on the losers.

    Did the blacks in America defeat the whites?

    America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery. We did so at a terrible cost. Slavery had been the standard practice virtually everywhere on Earth since the Neolithic Revolution. The British and then the Americans - mostly Quakers and other dissident Christian groups - led the way to the elimination of chattel slavery almost everywhere.

    The blacks who are calling for reparations seem to misunderstand the history and the meaning of the term.

    Dang good comment. You can count on muddle-headed liberals to get the whole thing bass ackwards.

  150. @Wilkey
    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    'The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory' - or something along those lines.

    I remember reading a children's book, or perhaps just an encyclopedia article, comparing the wealth and industry of the South at the start of the war to that of the North. I've forgotten most of the precise details, but it left a strong impression that remains with me even today. That impression is of how little wealth was actually created by slave labor. One specific I remember is that of all the factories in the U.S. at the start of the war only 15% were in the South.

    The vast majority of this nation's wealth was created by the factories in the North and the ingenuity that built them and ran them, not by planting and growing crops that could just as easily have been planted and grown anywhere else. Of course some of that industry was fed by the plantations in the South...but not the cannon factories.

    So there's a certain irony here. If slave labor had produced as much wealth as the proponents of reparations pretend it did, the South probably would have been rich enough to have won its independence, and blacks might still be slaves.

    Tocqueville made a famous comparison along the banks of the Ohio River between Ohio (free) and Kentucky (slave)

    https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1029&context=uauje

  151. @GermanReader2
    If you really want to know the effect on slavery on the finances of American blacks, you need to compare them to their African counterparts.

    If you really want to know the effect on slavery on the finances of American blacks, you need to compare them to their African counterparts.

    Boom! GermanReader2 nails it.

    American blacks are in fact the greatest beneficiaries of slavery. They are about an order of magnitude *better off* than the typical West African–and that’s in purchasing power parity terms. In nominal per capita income (ability to afford world tradeable goods like buying an iPhag or purchasing plane tickets) American blacks are more like 30x better off.

    I’m 100% for generous reparations for American decendant of slaves blacks. However reparations assumes blacks today are harmed by their ancestors having been transported from Africa, resulting in their descendants living in the US instead of West Africa. So if blacks want reparations, with that … they must go back!

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    Necessary to say, my reparations-with-repatriation plan only makes sense if we *stop immigration*. There's no win if we pay blacks to return to Africa ... then let more come from Africa!

    But then nothing we do will matter if we don't stop immigration. It's the foundation for any sane set of policies and any decent--non-"shithole"--future for our children.

    ~~

    A great--and fair and non-racial--way to do "reparations" would be to make US residency saleable. (This would have to be age and fertility based. I.e. a 65 year old can't sell his residency--to go retire abroad--to a 25 year old woman who's going to pop three kids. Nor can a 35 year old woman who is leaving children behind in the US sell to that 25 year old woman.)

    Saleable residency is what an honest--non-ethnically motivated--libertarian would actually advocate. People have some "good", let it be bought and sold.

    Saleable residency would have a lot of positive effects on people's understanding that would be great for America:
    -- American citizenship is valuable--precious--and ergo shouldn't be given away!
    -- Illegal aliens are thieves--stealing something valuable.
    -- Giving away residency/citizenship--i.e. mass immigration--is stupid. It's cheating Americans.
    -- Blacks are very, very fortunate their ancestors were enslaved and they get to live here in the USA.

    All these "understandings" would be hugely beneficial to Americans, mainly improving American politics.

    The last one--essentially reversing the "polarity" of the black experience in America--would be a sharp gut blow to the minoritarian ideology (minorities good, majorities bad). Blacks are the critical component of justifying minoritarianism in America--the Golfocaust, Harvard quotas, and such trifles don't impress anyone (other than self-pitying Jews themselves). When you rip away "black suffering"--and instead think "blacks are lucky their ancestors were brought here as slaves; their suffering gave blacks today the chance to live in the USA"--the whole minoritarian project crumbles.

    With minoritarianism in ruins, Americans can actually recover and rebuild a decent nation. We can shut off immigration, and flip a "there's the door" bird to racial mau-mauing. With immigration shut down Asians and the upper tranche of "Hispanics" will integrate into the white middle and working classes. We'll have added a lumpen mestizo/mulatto/indio population to our traditional lumpen black and native Indian races. But i think--optimistically--if we can shut immigration down soon, there's still a nation that can be recovered.
  152. @Wilkey
    Since it appears descendants of “whites” who immigrated to the US after the end of slavery are also on the hook for reparations, why not just garnish the wages of every white person in the world?

    Whether for whites or others, I have always found this argument annoying. Are white descendants of pre-Civil War Americans the only people in the whole freaking world who should be blamed for the sins of our ancestors? I'm guilty of shit that happened over 150 years ago, but Italians whose ancestors came here more recently are innocent of Italian fascism and colonialism? Saudis who came here 5 years ago are innocent of Saudi oppression of women, gays, and religious minorities?

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else's ancestors over theirs. Moving to America doesn't magically cleanse you of the sins of your ancestors in the old country.

    If we are going to hold the crimes of my ancestors over my head then we need to hold the crimes of everyone else’s ancestors over theirs.

    Indeed. And, of course, Jews and black Africans played a role in this particular episode: chattel slavery in the New World or in North America (take your pick).

  153. @Reg Cæsar

    I was in St. Paul and walked a neighborhood with many fine mansions that were built early twentieth century.
     
    Summit Avenue. That's about it for the whole city. Far from typical.

    Railroad baron James J Hill built what is arguably the only true mansion on the five-mile strip:


    https://www.mnhs.org/sites/default/files/-paragraphs/image/edit/exterior-angle-house.jpg


    The private James J Hill Library (physically but not institutionally attached to the city library) has a letter from Andrew Carnegie chiding the locals for asking him to pay for a building when they had Hill. Hill must have been embarrassed by this, because he did build it. Carnegie sprung for a few of the branches.

    Hill also had a less affluent man, John Armstrong, evicted from the summit so he could build his own house. Armstrong built another downtown, but I wouldn't call anything that can be picked up and moved whole, as it was in 2001, a "mansion".

    Despite these marks on his record, Hill was probably the most honest and least arrogant of all the railroad barons.

    James J Hill was a total stud. He built his business empire and the Great Northern with smarts, hustle and hard work–not corporate land-grant welfare from the feds.

    For those interested in such things, there’s a nice little historical hike–the Iron Goat Trail–to be had off US2 on the west side of Stevens Pass, just west of where the BNSF mainline–leaving the Cascade Tunnel–runs under the highway. The trail leads up through and around a bunch of the Great Northern tunnels and works in use prior to the modern 1928 tunnel. You can work your way up–directly (hiking a bunch of switchbacks) or via the railbed and walk through the 1/4 mile curving tunnel around the ridge above that was built in 1914 after the 1910 avalanche disaster up the line at Wellington just outside the old Cascade Tunnel. (A good book on the avalanche–the worst in the US for loss of life–is “The White Cascade”.)

    After the avalanche the Great Northern started work on the current Cascade Tunnel. (At just shy of eight miles it was for years the longest rail tunnel in the Americas, but the Canadians passed it with a tunnel at Rogers Pass back in the 80s.)

    Watching a train head out of the Cascade Tunnel is kinda fun. There’s usually a Westbound freight that comes out in the early evening, that i’d take first my kids–later scouts–to watch if we were hiking in the area during the day.

    • Replies: @OEMIKITLOB
    "James J Hill was a total stud. He built his business empire and the Great Northern with smarts, hustle and hard work–not corporate land-grant welfare from the feds"

    Yes, he was the only one who didn't take the welfare. And he was hated for it (since he made honest profits) and his competitors, bureaucrats and pols tried like hell to make his life miserable in many ways. Very interesting man and story.
  154. @Peripatetic Commenter
    Surely it was only 5,999,998 ...

    https://twistedsifter.com/2019/05/holocaust-survivors-in-same-line-at-auschwitz-meet-72-years-later/

    Wait. So there were survivors ... and they lived at least another 72 years.

    Sounds like a summer camp.

    It’s not an easy thing to do, but you have dishonored David Irving who, for all his faults, at least tried to make some sense.

  155. @Pat Boyle
    What are reparations? It never seems to be mentioned that there have been reparations often in the past but that the meaning of the term was somewhat different than that assumed by black activists. .

    For example in the first and second Opium Wars, the triumphant British demanded reparations from the defeated Chinese for the opium that the Chinese authorities had destroyed in an effort to spare their population from the scourge of opium addiction. The British had beaten the Chinese through better artillery at every engagement. The Chinese could not defend themselves from the conquering British so they were forced to pay reparations. The Chinese lost the wars and suffered being subjected to enforced drug addiction plus they had to pay the British heavy reparations for trying to defend themselves.

    This same usage is seen in the better known case of the post-WWI peace settlement at Versailles. The Germans were forced to pay twenty billion gold marks. Many historians credit the German resentment over the reparations as contributing to the rise of the Nazis.

    So the meaning of reparations is the enforced payment of money by the losers of a war or armed conflict imposed by the winners that often leads to lingering resentment among the defeated. Reparations do not - from the testimony of history - seem to have been an instrument for justice. Rather it seems to merely be a way for victors to take further revenge on the losers.

    Did the blacks in America defeat the whites?

    America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery. We did so at a terrible cost. Slavery had been the standard practice virtually everywhere on Earth since the Neolithic Revolution. The British and then the Americans - mostly Quakers and other dissident Christian groups - led the way to the elimination of chattel slavery almost everywhere.

    The blacks who are calling for reparations seem to misunderstand the history and the meaning of the term.

    It’s not the blacks who matter, it’s the whites who won the culture war (thanks to nitwits like Boethiuss and our managerial class being unaware it was even going on) and are now looking to get paid.

    Conventional, run-of-the-mill reparations.

  156. @newrouter
    Do we deduct for reparations already paid: EBT, Section 8, AA, prison food/housing, et al? (yea right)

    Quick back-of-napkin calculation:

    Net direct cost of community to taxpayer:
    Slightly below baseline cost of armed forces, $650-700bn p/a
    $2.6T = 4 years
    “Direct cost” already includes extra police and prisons, but not affirmative action, gubmint jobs, the ruin of public education and we all know how the surcharge on “good” homes is called:
    $2.6T = friendly estimate 1.5 years

    For Chrissake TAKE THE OFFER, it´s a mézie!

  157. @Anon
    Be me.
    Be of Scottish and German ancestry.

    My family has accrued nothing inter-generationally, other than a slowly-increasing and hard-earned ability to raise children that can achieve better training for ever-better jobs. (ie: utility technician to middle school teacher, teacher to mid-level hospital professional, mid-level hospital worker to doctor / lawyer, etc).

    This is in spite of any better potential in any generation, given probable IQ (ie: my eighth grade educated great grandfather who was a sought after industrial foreman who built his daughter's house from the ground up with her husband, and who made and sold parts to companies from his home built machine shop in the large garage behind the house).

    What to achieve and how to get there is very much cultural information that is realized in any generation's work and social environment (that is now much better democratized due to the internet).

    Parental academic achievement is the only way to have the knowledge to instruct children on how to do slightly better academically speaking. There are wunderkinds who do figure it out on their own, but they are not the norm. Habits are taught. Lifestyle decisions are made by parents. Kids know nothing in that regard.

    With ever better outcomes (at least in terms of economics, and ignoring social outcomes that are declining everywhere) comes an ever better sense of responsibility to the next generation's outcome.

    For us currently, there are no meaningful inheritances other than cultural items. The best that we get is a cosign on a loan.

    In the process of this slow inter-generational self-improvement, my family has been ravaged by war in each generation, as well as the tremendous inter-generational fallout from both its physical and psychological damage (ie: being raised by an slightly psychotic alcoholic Marine vet who died an early death due to war injury vs. anyone else, etc).

    As payment, we weather the racial attacks (both political and physical) and disadvantages that come with living in proximity to large populations of Blacks and the Jews who hate us and use them as a proxy army against us.

    Black reparations are one hundred percent whine from welfare queens and their enablers for more unearned welfare at our hard earned expense. Its a war on us more so than help for them (because it very obviously will not help them in the long run unless it is a permanent payment).

    Reparations are an essential admission that Blacks both can not and will not do the work and overcome similar or less obstacles than White families, like my own, to slowly better our lots in this dystopia.

    Our process is available to everyone here (many do it better). The highest educational attainment is now available to everyone here.

    There are no more excuses for being mired in the ghetto generation after generation, other than an inherent lack of ability to do anything else.

    Reparations are an essential admission that Blacks both can not and will not do the work and overcome similar or less obstacles than White families, like my own, to slowly better our lots in this dystopia.

    They did it fine for several generations until LBJ decided to lock up the N*gger (his words) vote for his party for a hundred years at the expense of what made America great and was steadily improving the lives of black Americans.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    "They did it fine for several generations".

    No they didn't. They have always been a hot mess.
  158. Eighty grand apiece? And for that we trade off ALL racial and ethnic distinctions of every sort. No more tracking race for anything besides medical reasons. No more requirements pertaining to free association or banning same. No more set-asides or preferences in any public affair. All private affairs are just that:Private. Don’t want to sell your home to a honky? Don’t. Don’t want black (or asian, or Jewish, or Irish, Catholic or Mohammedan, you get the picture) in your private school? Do not admit them. I could go on. Is this the reparations deal? If so, count me in! I am willing to pay my share to never again have to put up with the phony bullshit which so afflicts this nation.

  159. My great great great great great great great grandfather was kidnapped in Ireland when he was five years old and sold in the New World as an indentured servant. So will I get reparations?

  160. @AnotherDad

    If you really want to know the effect on slavery on the finances of American blacks, you need to compare them to their African counterparts.
     
    Boom! GermanReader2 nails it.

    American blacks are in fact the greatest beneficiaries of slavery. They are about an order of magnitude *better off* than the typical West African--and that's in purchasing power parity terms. In nominal per capita income (ability to afford world tradeable goods like buying an iPhag or purchasing plane tickets) American blacks are more like 30x better off.

    I'm 100% for generous reparations for American decendant of slaves blacks. However reparations assumes blacks today are harmed by their ancestors having been transported from Africa, resulting in their descendants living in the US instead of West Africa. So if blacks want reparations, with that ... they must go back!

    Necessary to say, my reparations-with-repatriation plan only makes sense if we *stop immigration*. There’s no win if we pay blacks to return to Africa … then let more come from Africa!

    But then nothing we do will matter if we don’t stop immigration. It’s the foundation for any sane set of policies and any decent–non-“shithole”–future for our children.

    ~~

    A great–and fair and non-racial–way to do “reparations” would be to make US residency saleable. (This would have to be age and fertility based. I.e. a 65 year old can’t sell his residency–to go retire abroad–to a 25 year old woman who’s going to pop three kids. Nor can a 35 year old woman who is leaving children behind in the US sell to that 25 year old woman.)

    Saleable residency is what an honest–non-ethnically motivated–libertarian would actually advocate. People have some “good”, let it be bought and sold.

    Saleable residency would have a lot of positive effects on people’s understanding that would be great for America:
    — American citizenship is valuable–precious–and ergo shouldn’t be given away!
    — Illegal aliens are thieves–stealing something valuable.
    — Giving away residency/citizenship–i.e. mass immigration–is stupid. It’s cheating Americans.
    — Blacks are very, very fortunate their ancestors were enslaved and they get to live here in the USA.

    All these “understandings” would be hugely beneficial to Americans, mainly improving American politics.

    The last one–essentially reversing the “polarity” of the black experience in America–would be a sharp gut blow to the minoritarian ideology (minorities good, majorities bad). Blacks are the critical component of justifying minoritarianism in America–the Golfocaust, Harvard quotas, and such trifles don’t impress anyone (other than self-pitying Jews themselves). When you rip away “black suffering”–and instead think “blacks are lucky their ancestors were brought here as slaves; their suffering gave blacks today the chance to live in the USA”–the whole minoritarian project crumbles.

    With minoritarianism in ruins, Americans can actually recover and rebuild a decent nation. We can shut off immigration, and flip a “there’s the door” bird to racial mau-mauing. With immigration shut down Asians and the upper tranche of “Hispanics” will integrate into the white middle and working classes. We’ll have added a lumpen mestizo/mulatto/indio population to our traditional lumpen black and native Indian races. But i think–optimistically–if we can shut immigration down soon, there’s still a nation that can be recovered.

    • Replies: @RobRich
    "Saleable residency is what an honest–non-ethnically motivated–libertarian would actually advocate."

    Libertarians first proposed it as an option in 1965. REASON magazine had a big article on it sometime in the late '70's, I think. I attended a panel on the subject by libertarians from across the Americas for OAS ambassadors a few years ago.
    , @Alan Mercer
    I like this idea. To handle the age/fertility detail, I propose:

    - Resident, Natural-Born Resident, and Citizen statuses, with Citizen as it is currently, Resident = Citizen minus suffrage, and Natural-Born Resident = born on US soil to a Resident or better;
    - Citizenship inherited if born in a union of Citizen parents;
    - residency requirements to maintain any of the three (majority of time spent in US or some other criteria, no dual citizenships btw);
    - Citizenship saleable by Citizens to NBRs only;
    - Residency saleable by Citizens/NBRs/Residents to anyone;
    - possibly some merit system for NBR to obtain citizenship (open for debate);
    - symmetrically, conditions under which Citizen status is removed as a penalty.

    US democracy as it is is broken, susceptible to the Ringer attack. Neither is oligarchy/monarchy the solution. Maybe some good monarchies existed, but if starting from current initial conditions, who do you suppose would rule? Or, how would we get from here to an honest monarchy? The middle road, envisioned by the Fathers as suffrage stewarded by landowners, is the answer. Reversion to landownership as the criterion won't work (the Chinese etc would take over).
  161. @Anonymous

    Since my ancestors did not own slaves, and were likely harmed by competing with plantations, do I have to pay? It doesn’t seem fair that I would.
     
    Blacks have benefited from slavery. Do they have better lives than they would have had in Africa? Do some owe their very existence to slavery?

    Therefore, if anyone should pay, you should pay.

    I don’t get the logic there. I’m not black, if that’s what you are thinking.

  162. I demand compensation for the losses incurred by my slave owning ancestors, who had their lawful property forcibly stolen by the warmongering Union. Taking account of compounding interest and inflation, it should be quite the tidy sum.

  163. Anonymous[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @Travis
    good point. Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War , leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families. Sad that the families who made the ultimate sacrifice fighting to end slavery will now be forced to pay reparations to the families they freed from bondage.. No good deed goes unpunished.

    Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War, leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families.

    That’s on the descendants of the citizens and soldiers of the Northern states. They chose to fight an oppressive, imperial war to quash the South’s desire for independence and to subjugate the Southern people. Then they paid themselves generous pensions out of the empire’s coffers.

    If anyone is deserving of reparations it is the descendants of Confedrate citizens and soldiers. And that’s on either the Federal government or the descendants of citizens and soldiers of the Northern states.

    • Replies: @Travis
    most of the union soldiers were drafted...But the losing side always pays the reparations.

    But regarding reparations to descendants of Black slaves , why would the descendants of Northerners who fought and died to free the slaves be forced to pay reparations to those they fought to free ? If there are to be reparations, the former confederate states should be forced to pay them.
  164. Anon[275] • Disclaimer says:

    As long as we’re taxing people to pay for the sins of their ancestors, why not tax American-Germans for Jewish reparations for the role of American-German’s ancestors in WWII?

    Parallel to the fact that it doesn’t matter if anyone’s White’s ancestors fought for the Union or were not here during slavery or Jim Crowe, they will be taxed for slavery reparations anyway, it would not matter if someone’s Germanic grandfather fought the Nazis while enlisted in the U.S. Army. Original sin is in-play in the Semitic dystopia.

    What do you think? Do the Jews have the wherewithal to weather the antisemitic uprising that would come with an equivalent and more direct policy targeting and weakening Whites for the benefit of Jews? Or will they be content to play like sniveling cowards, ever using proxies to take the heat of the policies that they recommend?

    That’s a rhetorical question, of course. A sniveling coward is always a sniveling coward.

  165. BTW, even without my “consciousness raising” “reparations with repatriation”, i absolutely love the talk about reparations.

    AnotherNeighbors have invited us for Memorial Day barbeque. Since he’s a Southwest pilot, i’m guessing we’ll kick around the MAX issue and timing of return of normal flight schedule. But if any political stuff starts up, i’ll be sure and mention “reparations” being on the Democrats’ agenda.

    I encourage everyone to do the same. If any political or election talk gets started–mention “reparations” being on the Democrat agenda. Raise “reparations” consciousness.

    The more talk about “reparations” the better.

  166. @bucky
    Reparations are basically to the Democratic left what abortion is to the Republican right.

    Doesn't mean that there isn't merit to either, but really, in the coming decades they're just GOTV issues that are perpetually never solved, used to motivate the dimmer portions of the coalition.

    Pro-lifers are among the more intelligent and certainly conscientious Rs.

  167. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @LondonBob
    That people in WW2 were fighting fascism would have been news to them. British soldiers believed they were fighting for Britain and its interests. Anyway the word 'fascist' was adopted by the Comintern instead of 'Nazism' because 'Nazism' tended to remind people of the Nazi-Soviet pact.

    Anyway the word ‘fascist’ was adopted by the Comintern instead of ‘Nazism’ because ‘Nazism’ tended to remind people of the Nazi-Soviet pact.

    The proper term was and is NATIONAL SOCIALISM. “Nazi” and “Nazism” are artificial terms to cover up the SOCIALIST aspect of the movement.

    Much to the chagrin of capitalists who had sponsored them, the National Socialists were indeed socialist in substance and introduced numerous socialist policies.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "National Socialism" was the middle of the road movement between Nationalism and Socialism.
    It was somewhat socialist but protected free enterprise of small business while making large corporations do what it considered good for society. So, it was socialist to a degree but so is every government on earth today. It was in several ways less socialist than the US Government is today. Since 1965 dysfunctional welfare bums have been tolerated in the US , people 90% of whom the Nazis would have put to work one way or another. They did some really bad things to a lot of people, many of whom did not have it coming but some did. As compared to the Soviets they were not especially bad for most people under their rule, of course they got brutal with some groups later in the war, but were pikers in the killing department compared to Stalin or Mao.


    Not endorsing the NSDAP, only pointing out that to a Germany starving to death and humiliated by Versailles, their appeal can be understood.

    If Merkel and her ilk keep it up, the Germans just maybe might raise up the flag and stand as one together again. If they do and you are a member of a non-German group, do like Polanski and GTFO that very night. It will not be pretty.
  168. @bucky
    Reparations are basically to the Democratic left what abortion is to the Republican right.

    Doesn't mean that there isn't merit to either, but really, in the coming decades they're just GOTV issues that are perpetually never solved, used to motivate the dimmer portions of the coalition.

    Keep telling yourself that. The Left delivers more or less while we have Central America pouring over our borders under a Republican President.

  169. @Redneck farmer
    Don't you get it?
    FACTS DON'T MATTER.

    “That’s hypocritical” the conservative says as he’s loaded on a train by a communist to a Dakota gulag.

  170. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pat Boyle
    What are reparations? It never seems to be mentioned that there have been reparations often in the past but that the meaning of the term was somewhat different than that assumed by black activists. .

    For example in the first and second Opium Wars, the triumphant British demanded reparations from the defeated Chinese for the opium that the Chinese authorities had destroyed in an effort to spare their population from the scourge of opium addiction. The British had beaten the Chinese through better artillery at every engagement. The Chinese could not defend themselves from the conquering British so they were forced to pay reparations. The Chinese lost the wars and suffered being subjected to enforced drug addiction plus they had to pay the British heavy reparations for trying to defend themselves.

    This same usage is seen in the better known case of the post-WWI peace settlement at Versailles. The Germans were forced to pay twenty billion gold marks. Many historians credit the German resentment over the reparations as contributing to the rise of the Nazis.

    So the meaning of reparations is the enforced payment of money by the losers of a war or armed conflict imposed by the winners that often leads to lingering resentment among the defeated. Reparations do not - from the testimony of history - seem to have been an instrument for justice. Rather it seems to merely be a way for victors to take further revenge on the losers.

    Did the blacks in America defeat the whites?

    America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery. We did so at a terrible cost. Slavery had been the standard practice virtually everywhere on Earth since the Neolithic Revolution. The British and then the Americans - mostly Quakers and other dissident Christian groups - led the way to the elimination of chattel slavery almost everywhere.

    The blacks who are calling for reparations seem to misunderstand the history and the meaning of the term.

    QUOTE: America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery.

    Not correct. There was no slavery in Britain proper in the 1800s, nor anywhere in Western Europe. Britain abolished slavery throughout its empire by passing “the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, with exceptions provided for the East India Company, Ceylon, and Saint Helena. These exceptions were eliminated in 1843.” (Infogalactic)

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    This is an ignorant "correction" (one day you'll hear about this thing called "Ireland," where angry people come from) and pointless anyway because he didn't say "the first."
  171. @Anonymous

    Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War, leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families.
     
    That's on the descendants of the citizens and soldiers of the Northern states. They chose to fight an oppressive, imperial war to quash the South's desire for independence and to subjugate the Southern people. Then they paid themselves generous pensions out of the empire's coffers.

    If anyone is deserving of reparations it is the descendants of Confedrate citizens and soldiers. And that's on either the Federal government or the descendants of citizens and soldiers of the Northern states.

    most of the union soldiers were drafted…But the losing side always pays the reparations.

    But regarding reparations to descendants of Black slaves , why would the descendants of Northerners who fought and died to free the slaves be forced to pay reparations to those they fought to free ? If there are to be reparations, the former confederate states should be forced to pay them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    most of the union soldiers were drafted…
     
    So what? They were drafted by their own government. In any case, they could have all refused to fight and that would have prevented the war.

    But regarding reparations to descendants of Black slaves , why would the descendants of Northerners who fought and died to free the slaves be forced to pay reparations to those they fought to free ?
     
    Because their government was responsible for creating the system that is at issue.

    If there are to be reparations, the former confederate states should be forced to pay them.
     
    No. The Confederate states are owed reparations, for the killing of their citizens by the U.S. Federal government, for the destruction and loss of their property, and for the illegal occupation of their territory.
  172. @Anonymous
    Reparations: Yes, but only with separation.

    You take the money and you leave the US permanently.

    Or, if you hven't reproduced, maybe you take a monthly stipend in exchange for sterilization and waiver of right to trial if credibly accused of crime.

    It also has to be every one of them or none of them.

  173. @Steve Sailer
    Back around 2001, the president of a West African country issued an apology for his country selling New World blacks into slavery.

    He should have apologized to his own countrymen for not sending their ancestors as well.

  174. @Anonymous
    QUOTE: America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery.

    Not correct. There was no slavery in Britain proper in the 1800s, nor anywhere in Western Europe. Britain abolished slavery throughout its empire by passing "the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, with exceptions provided for the East India Company, Ceylon, and Saint Helena. These exceptions were eliminated in 1843." (Infogalactic)

    This is an ignorant “correction” (one day you’ll hear about this thing called “Ireland,” where angry people come from) and pointless anyway because he didn’t say “the first.”

  175. @LondonBob
    Whites who turned up in the US after the Civil War can't just pick choose, they have take the good and the bad. America's wealth, laws, housing, infrastructure were well established before the Civil War.

    Don’t forget about the wifi. Wifi was also well established.

  176. anon[370] • Disclaimer says:

    By Patricia Cohen
    May 23, 2019

    … For every dollar a typical white household holds, a black one has 10 cents. It is this cumulative effect that justifies the payment of reparations to descendants of slaves long dead, supporters say. …

    do tell, cohen

    i hear jews were twice as likely as whites to own slaves

  177. @The Alarmist

    “Of course, after a one-time reparations payment, the racial wealth gap would quickly widen as blacks waste their windfalls.”
     
    So, the proposal is to take the money from roughly 100 million taxpaying white families and launder it through roughly 15 million black families to then have it wind up in a couple dozen oligarch, predominantly Jewish families.

    That’s it in a nutshell. Same ol’ song and dance.

  178. @AnotherDad
    James J Hill was a total stud. He built his business empire and the Great Northern with smarts, hustle and hard work--not corporate land-grant welfare from the feds.

    For those interested in such things, there's a nice little historical hike--the Iron Goat Trail--to be had off US2 on the west side of Stevens Pass, just west of where the BNSF mainline--leaving the Cascade Tunnel--runs under the highway. The trail leads up through and around a bunch of the Great Northern tunnels and works in use prior to the modern 1928 tunnel. You can work your way up--directly (hiking a bunch of switchbacks) or via the railbed and walk through the 1/4 mile curving tunnel around the ridge above that was built in 1914 after the 1910 avalanche disaster up the line at Wellington just outside the old Cascade Tunnel. (A good book on the avalanche--the worst in the US for loss of life--is "The White Cascade".)

    After the avalanche the Great Northern started work on the current Cascade Tunnel. (At just shy of eight miles it was for years the longest rail tunnel in the Americas, but the Canadians passed it with a tunnel at Rogers Pass back in the 80s.)

    Watching a train head out of the Cascade Tunnel is kinda fun. There's usually a Westbound freight that comes out in the early evening, that i'd take first my kids--later scouts--to watch if we were hiking in the area during the day.

    “James J Hill was a total stud. He built his business empire and the Great Northern with smarts, hustle and hard work–not corporate land-grant welfare from the feds”

    Yes, he was the only one who didn’t take the welfare. And he was hated for it (since he made honest profits) and his competitors, bureaucrats and pols tried like hell to make his life miserable in many ways. Very interesting man and story.

  179. @OilcanFloyd
    That's more a result of being destroyed, occupied, and looted than anything else.

    OilcanFloyd

    I feel like you’re the kind of fellow who enjoys an occasional game of Hucka-Bucka-Beanstalk.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    I assume that's an insult, but I don't know what you mean.
  180. @Wilkey
    Rhett Butler had some things to say about the comparative economic output of the North and the South.

    'The South is heading into war without a single cannon factory' - or something along those lines.

    I remember reading a children's book, or perhaps just an encyclopedia article, comparing the wealth and industry of the South at the start of the war to that of the North. I've forgotten most of the precise details, but it left a strong impression that remains with me even today. That impression is of how little wealth was actually created by slave labor. One specific I remember is that of all the factories in the U.S. at the start of the war only 15% were in the South.

    The vast majority of this nation's wealth was created by the factories in the North and the ingenuity that built them and ran them, not by planting and growing crops that could just as easily have been planted and grown anywhere else. Of course some of that industry was fed by the plantations in the South...but not the cannon factories.

    So there's a certain irony here. If slave labor had produced as much wealth as the proponents of reparations pretend it did, the South probably would have been rich enough to have won its independence, and blacks might still be slaves.

    Paul Johnson covers this fairly well in “A History of the American People”.

  181. I know you’re all having fun mocking it. I mean, it’s so easy to mock, even ignorant illiterate children can mock it ( . . . .?!)

    But try to rise above the fray and get a little perspective.

    This is just a little football, a little wedge thingie, a little phoney issue they throw at you every couple months to watch you geezers hop and scratch and foam at the mouth.

    It is great fun for them.

    Why do you always react exactly the way they want you to? Are you mere automatons?

  182. @Travis
    good point. Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War , leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families. Sad that the families who made the ultimate sacrifice fighting to end slavery will now be forced to pay reparations to the families they freed from bondage.. No good deed goes unpunished.

    They could have just minded their own business. The ones that volunteered anyway.

  183. Every time anybody (white) I knew suddenly came into money, whether from an insurance settlement or an inheritance or something else, it was champagne and cocaine for six months and then byby windfall.

    I always mocked them mercilessly when they did that, because although I will never get a windfall, if hypothetically I ever did, you bet your bottom dollar, baby, I’d pinch every dam penny.

    So if this ever goes through, just buy champagne and cocaine futures and everything will be alright again. Just give it six months.

  184. They deserve nothing at all. But I’m still all for reparations as long as it’s 100% mandatory for all groids–and comes with mandatory repatriation back to Africa, with no right of return-not even to visit.

    Best couple of trillion we will have ever spent. Any virtue signalling white azzhat who wants to go can too-sans any money paid to them. Bon voyage. Will pay for itself in two years.

  185. @Desiderius

    Reparations are an essential admission that Blacks both can not and will not do the work and overcome similar or less obstacles than White families, like my own, to slowly better our lots in this dystopia.
     
    They did it fine for several generations until LBJ decided to lock up the N*gger (his words) vote for his party for a hundred years at the expense of what made America great and was steadily improving the lives of black Americans.

    “They did it fine for several generations”.

    No they didn’t. They have always been a hot mess.

  186. @El Dato
    Irredentist ex-super-oligarch and Hollywood scenario provider Khodorkovsky says Putin has a plan (sounds suspiciously like something Muhammar El Ghaddafi might come up with but not actually implement):

    NBC Claims Russians Plan To Give African Americans Combat Training

    (Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord — and violence — in the U.S.)

    On Monday NBC news reported "Russian documents reveal desire to sow racial discord and violence in the US." The claim is that these documents are communications between associates of Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is described as a "Kremlin linked oligarch indicted by special counsel Robert Mueller." The documents were obtained by the Dossier Center, a London based investigative project funded by exiled Russian opposition leader Mikhail Khodorkovsky. NBC News admitted they have not independently verified the documents.

    These communications, which NBC says are light on detail, suggest a plan to recruit African Americans and transport them to camps in Africa "for combat prep and training in sabotage."

    The plan, entitled "Development Strategy of a Pan-African State on U.S. Territory," proposed to recruit poor and disenfranchised African Americans "who have experience in organized crime groups" and members of "radical black movements for participation in civil disobedience actions."

    After the training in Africa, they would be sent back to America with hopes of them fomenting violence and working to develop a pan-African state in the South. The goal is to "destabilize the internal situation in the US."
     
    "A pan-African state in the South". Yeah, that sounds like a top plan. Why not Illinois?

    Reuters, May 24, 2019
    “Russia to send military specialists to Congo Republic: Kremlin”

  187. @Kevin O'Keeffe

    OilcanFloyd
     
    I feel like you're the kind of fellow who enjoys an occasional game of Hucka-Bucka-Beanstalk.

    I assume that’s an insult, but I don’t know what you mean.

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe

    I assume that’s an insult, but I don’t know what you mean.
     
    No, it's not an insult. I just assumed "OilcanFloyd" was a reference to the early 1980s Infocom game, PLANETFALL (in which case the reference to "Hucka-Bucka-Beanstalk," while obscure, would've probably rung a bell). Now I'm thinking the handle may have just been a coincidence.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetfall

  188. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Anyway the word ‘fascist’ was adopted by the Comintern instead of ‘Nazism’ because ‘Nazism’ tended to remind people of the Nazi-Soviet pact.
     
    The proper term was and is NATIONAL SOCIALISM. "Nazi" and "Nazism" are artificial terms to cover up the SOCIALIST aspect of the movement.

    Much to the chagrin of capitalists who had sponsored them, the National Socialists were indeed socialist in substance and introduced numerous socialist policies.

    “National Socialism” was the middle of the road movement between Nationalism and Socialism.
    It was somewhat socialist but protected free enterprise of small business while making large corporations do what it considered good for society. So, it was socialist to a degree but so is every government on earth today. It was in several ways less socialist than the US Government is today. Since 1965 dysfunctional welfare bums have been tolerated in the US , people 90% of whom the Nazis would have put to work one way or another. They did some really bad things to a lot of people, many of whom did not have it coming but some did. As compared to the Soviets they were not especially bad for most people under their rule, of course they got brutal with some groups later in the war, but were pikers in the killing department compared to Stalin or Mao.

    Not endorsing the NSDAP, only pointing out that to a Germany starving to death and humiliated by Versailles, their appeal can be understood.

    If Merkel and her ilk keep it up, the Germans just maybe might raise up the flag and stand as one together again. If they do and you are a member of a non-German group, do like Polanski and GTFO that very night. It will not be pretty.

    • Replies: @Svigor

    Not endorsing the NSDAP, only pointing out that to a Germany starving to death and humiliated by Versailles, their appeal can be understood.
     
    And, you know, sitting in the front row for the Holodomor and the (((genocidal period))) of the USSR.
    , @Alan Mercer
    No, every German with a pair died in a trench or similar. There's not a drop of native testosterone left in the country. Ditto for Scandinavia, all of whose badasses centuries ago self-exported in rape raids turned permanent vacations.
  189. Anonymous[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @Travis
    most of the union soldiers were drafted...But the losing side always pays the reparations.

    But regarding reparations to descendants of Black slaves , why would the descendants of Northerners who fought and died to free the slaves be forced to pay reparations to those they fought to free ? If there are to be reparations, the former confederate states should be forced to pay them.

    most of the union soldiers were drafted…

    So what? They were drafted by their own government. In any case, they could have all refused to fight and that would have prevented the war.

    But regarding reparations to descendants of Black slaves , why would the descendants of Northerners who fought and died to free the slaves be forced to pay reparations to those they fought to free ?

    Because their government was responsible for creating the system that is at issue.

    If there are to be reparations, the former confederate states should be forced to pay them.

    No. The Confederate states are owed reparations, for the killing of their citizens by the U.S. Federal government, for the destruction and loss of their property, and for the illegal occupation of their territory.

    • Agree: Svigor
  190. @Travis
    good point. Would be interesting if the South was forced to pay reparations to the families of the 900,000 Union casualties. If the Blacks are getting reparations for slavery, descendants of union soldiers should get reparations for being drafted and killed or wounded fighting to free the Blacks in the Civil War , leaving their children fatherless or they returned from the war too injured to ever work again, thus becoming a burden on their families. Sad that the families who made the ultimate sacrifice fighting to end slavery will now be forced to pay reparations to the families they freed from bondage.. No good deed goes unpunished.

    Aggressors should be paid by their victims. Interesting “morality” you have there.

  191. @Pat Boyle
    What are reparations? It never seems to be mentioned that there have been reparations often in the past but that the meaning of the term was somewhat different than that assumed by black activists. .

    For example in the first and second Opium Wars, the triumphant British demanded reparations from the defeated Chinese for the opium that the Chinese authorities had destroyed in an effort to spare their population from the scourge of opium addiction. The British had beaten the Chinese through better artillery at every engagement. The Chinese could not defend themselves from the conquering British so they were forced to pay reparations. The Chinese lost the wars and suffered being subjected to enforced drug addiction plus they had to pay the British heavy reparations for trying to defend themselves.

    This same usage is seen in the better known case of the post-WWI peace settlement at Versailles. The Germans were forced to pay twenty billion gold marks. Many historians credit the German resentment over the reparations as contributing to the rise of the Nazis.

    So the meaning of reparations is the enforced payment of money by the losers of a war or armed conflict imposed by the winners that often leads to lingering resentment among the defeated. Reparations do not - from the testimony of history - seem to have been an instrument for justice. Rather it seems to merely be a way for victors to take further revenge on the losers.

    Did the blacks in America defeat the whites?

    America was among the very first nations on earth to abolish slavery. We did so at a terrible cost. Slavery had been the standard practice virtually everywhere on Earth since the Neolithic Revolution. The British and then the Americans - mostly Quakers and other dissident Christian groups - led the way to the elimination of chattel slavery almost everywhere.

    The blacks who are calling for reparations seem to misunderstand the history and the meaning of the term.

    The timeline of British abolition is amusing. TL;DR version:

    1. Britain loses her colonies, and thus all the lovely slave revenue therefrom, to independence.
    2. Britain suddenly “grows a conscience” and abolishes the thing that’s no longer a source of revenue for her, but has become very profitable for her former colonies/current rival.
    3. Piracy Privateering ensues.

    Still, the point remains; nobody else forced it – Britain did.

  192. @Anonymous
    "National Socialism" was the middle of the road movement between Nationalism and Socialism.
    It was somewhat socialist but protected free enterprise of small business while making large corporations do what it considered good for society. So, it was socialist to a degree but so is every government on earth today. It was in several ways less socialist than the US Government is today. Since 1965 dysfunctional welfare bums have been tolerated in the US , people 90% of whom the Nazis would have put to work one way or another. They did some really bad things to a lot of people, many of whom did not have it coming but some did. As compared to the Soviets they were not especially bad for most people under their rule, of course they got brutal with some groups later in the war, but were pikers in the killing department compared to Stalin or Mao.


    Not endorsing the NSDAP, only pointing out that to a Germany starving to death and humiliated by Versailles, their appeal can be understood.

    If Merkel and her ilk keep it up, the Germans just maybe might raise up the flag and stand as one together again. If they do and you are a member of a non-German group, do like Polanski and GTFO that very night. It will not be pretty.

    Not endorsing the NSDAP, only pointing out that to a Germany starving to death and humiliated by Versailles, their appeal can be understood.

    And, you know, sitting in the front row for the Holodomor and the (((genocidal period))) of the USSR.

  193. It’s actually helpful that Ta-Nehisi (the name is why no one ever asks to meet him for a beer. Seriously, “Hey, Ta, Nehisi, grab a beer?”. How creepy is that?) came up with $2.6trillion. It’s been estmated that the cost of LBJ’s (may he rot in Hell) Great Society has been $20trillion (what’s that national debt?). Blacks make up roughly 13% of US population. Simple multiplication and, viola! We’ve already spent it, so bugger off, Ta. We’ve actually spent much more, as blacks number about 50million, but they are represented disproportionately on welfare rolls.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/2014/02/11/the-great-societys-great-cost/

  194. This is great news! My earliest ancestor in America was a slave, indentured to serve in Reading, PA from 1735 to 1740. I think I’ll invest my 80 grand!

  195. beau says:

    north of $5 Trillion since ’65 and still needing/wanting more? i want the $5+ trillion back. it obviously only created more of the same and did not solve one single aberration in that demographic.
    to want more in that light is revelatory of the absolute lack of financial ability of that demographic.

  196. @Anonymous
    "National Socialism" was the middle of the road movement between Nationalism and Socialism.
    It was somewhat socialist but protected free enterprise of small business while making large corporations do what it considered good for society. So, it was socialist to a degree but so is every government on earth today. It was in several ways less socialist than the US Government is today. Since 1965 dysfunctional welfare bums have been tolerated in the US , people 90% of whom the Nazis would have put to work one way or another. They did some really bad things to a lot of people, many of whom did not have it coming but some did. As compared to the Soviets they were not especially bad for most people under their rule, of course they got brutal with some groups later in the war, but were pikers in the killing department compared to Stalin or Mao.


    Not endorsing the NSDAP, only pointing out that to a Germany starving to death and humiliated by Versailles, their appeal can be understood.

    If Merkel and her ilk keep it up, the Germans just maybe might raise up the flag and stand as one together again. If they do and you are a member of a non-German group, do like Polanski and GTFO that very night. It will not be pretty.

    No, every German with a pair died in a trench or similar. There’s not a drop of native testosterone left in the country. Ditto for Scandinavia, all of whose badasses centuries ago self-exported in rape raids turned permanent vacations.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    No, every German with a pair died in a trench or similar.
     
    Is this true?
  197. Anonymous[221] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alan Mercer
    No, every German with a pair died in a trench or similar. There's not a drop of native testosterone left in the country. Ditto for Scandinavia, all of whose badasses centuries ago self-exported in rape raids turned permanent vacations.

    No, every German with a pair died in a trench or similar.

    Is this true?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Praise the deity, no. There are still a few Germans who know the old songs.

    Germans are about order and authority. They can be patient and long suffering but when things get bad enough, someone will take the reins, and Allah help the invaders.

    They will raise up the flag and stand as one together, and authority being established, a lot of others will stand with them.

    Smart invaders will head for the borders, and very fast. Others.......well, it won't be pretty.
    , @Alan Mercer
    Germany's German population in 1938 was 68M. The country sustained 5M infantry deaths. It's fair to assume infantry carried a disproportionate share of the generation's T (even adjusted for age/sex), and imaginable that of the infantry, those who died again carried a disproportionate share (volunteerism, gallantry). So, what net effect?

    Conventional warfare is bad, bad for the Patriarchy as the dregs are sissified.
  198. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    No, every German with a pair died in a trench or similar.
     
    Is this true?

    Praise the deity, no. There are still a few Germans who know the old songs.

    Germans are about order and authority. They can be patient and long suffering but when things get bad enough, someone will take the reins, and Allah help the invaders.

    They will raise up the flag and stand as one together, and authority being established, a lot of others will stand with them.

    Smart invaders will head for the borders, and very fast. Others…….well, it won’t be pretty.

  199. @AnotherDad
    Necessary to say, my reparations-with-repatriation plan only makes sense if we *stop immigration*. There's no win if we pay blacks to return to Africa ... then let more come from Africa!

    But then nothing we do will matter if we don't stop immigration. It's the foundation for any sane set of policies and any decent--non-"shithole"--future for our children.

    ~~

    A great--and fair and non-racial--way to do "reparations" would be to make US residency saleable. (This would have to be age and fertility based. I.e. a 65 year old can't sell his residency--to go retire abroad--to a 25 year old woman who's going to pop three kids. Nor can a 35 year old woman who is leaving children behind in the US sell to that 25 year old woman.)

    Saleable residency is what an honest--non-ethnically motivated--libertarian would actually advocate. People have some "good", let it be bought and sold.

    Saleable residency would have a lot of positive effects on people's understanding that would be great for America:
    -- American citizenship is valuable--precious--and ergo shouldn't be given away!
    -- Illegal aliens are thieves--stealing something valuable.
    -- Giving away residency/citizenship--i.e. mass immigration--is stupid. It's cheating Americans.
    -- Blacks are very, very fortunate their ancestors were enslaved and they get to live here in the USA.

    All these "understandings" would be hugely beneficial to Americans, mainly improving American politics.

    The last one--essentially reversing the "polarity" of the black experience in America--would be a sharp gut blow to the minoritarian ideology (minorities good, majorities bad). Blacks are the critical component of justifying minoritarianism in America--the Golfocaust, Harvard quotas, and such trifles don't impress anyone (other than self-pitying Jews themselves). When you rip away "black suffering"--and instead think "blacks are lucky their ancestors were brought here as slaves; their suffering gave blacks today the chance to live in the USA"--the whole minoritarian project crumbles.

    With minoritarianism in ruins, Americans can actually recover and rebuild a decent nation. We can shut off immigration, and flip a "there's the door" bird to racial mau-mauing. With immigration shut down Asians and the upper tranche of "Hispanics" will integrate into the white middle and working classes. We'll have added a lumpen mestizo/mulatto/indio population to our traditional lumpen black and native Indian races. But i think--optimistically--if we can shut immigration down soon, there's still a nation that can be recovered.

    “Saleable residency is what an honest–non-ethnically motivated–libertarian would actually advocate.”

    Libertarians first proposed it as an option in 1965. REASON magazine had a big article on it sometime in the late ’70’s, I think. I attended a panel on the subject by libertarians from across the Americas for OAS ambassadors a few years ago.

  200. @Anonymous

    No, every German with a pair died in a trench or similar.
     
    Is this true?

    Germany’s German population in 1938 was 68M. The country sustained 5M infantry deaths. It’s fair to assume infantry carried a disproportionate share of the generation’s T (even adjusted for age/sex), and imaginable that of the infantry, those who died again carried a disproportionate share (volunteerism, gallantry). So, what net effect?

    Conventional warfare is bad, bad for the Patriarchy as the dregs are sissified.

  201. @AnotherDad
    Necessary to say, my reparations-with-repatriation plan only makes sense if we *stop immigration*. There's no win if we pay blacks to return to Africa ... then let more come from Africa!

    But then nothing we do will matter if we don't stop immigration. It's the foundation for any sane set of policies and any decent--non-"shithole"--future for our children.

    ~~

    A great--and fair and non-racial--way to do "reparations" would be to make US residency saleable. (This would have to be age and fertility based. I.e. a 65 year old can't sell his residency--to go retire abroad--to a 25 year old woman who's going to pop three kids. Nor can a 35 year old woman who is leaving children behind in the US sell to that 25 year old woman.)

    Saleable residency is what an honest--non-ethnically motivated--libertarian would actually advocate. People have some "good", let it be bought and sold.

    Saleable residency would have a lot of positive effects on people's understanding that would be great for America:
    -- American citizenship is valuable--precious--and ergo shouldn't be given away!
    -- Illegal aliens are thieves--stealing something valuable.
    -- Giving away residency/citizenship--i.e. mass immigration--is stupid. It's cheating Americans.
    -- Blacks are very, very fortunate their ancestors were enslaved and they get to live here in the USA.

    All these "understandings" would be hugely beneficial to Americans, mainly improving American politics.

    The last one--essentially reversing the "polarity" of the black experience in America--would be a sharp gut blow to the minoritarian ideology (minorities good, majorities bad). Blacks are the critical component of justifying minoritarianism in America--the Golfocaust, Harvard quotas, and such trifles don't impress anyone (other than self-pitying Jews themselves). When you rip away "black suffering"--and instead think "blacks are lucky their ancestors were brought here as slaves; their suffering gave blacks today the chance to live in the USA"--the whole minoritarian project crumbles.

    With minoritarianism in ruins, Americans can actually recover and rebuild a decent nation. We can shut off immigration, and flip a "there's the door" bird to racial mau-mauing. With immigration shut down Asians and the upper tranche of "Hispanics" will integrate into the white middle and working classes. We'll have added a lumpen mestizo/mulatto/indio population to our traditional lumpen black and native Indian races. But i think--optimistically--if we can shut immigration down soon, there's still a nation that can be recovered.

    I like this idea. To handle the age/fertility detail, I propose:

    – Resident, Natural-Born Resident, and Citizen statuses, with Citizen as it is currently, Resident = Citizen minus suffrage, and Natural-Born Resident = born on US soil to a Resident or better;
    – Citizenship inherited if born in a union of Citizen parents;
    – residency requirements to maintain any of the three (majority of time spent in US or some other criteria, no dual citizenships btw);
    – Citizenship saleable by Citizens to NBRs only;
    – Residency saleable by Citizens/NBRs/Residents to anyone;
    – possibly some merit system for NBR to obtain citizenship (open for debate);
    – symmetrically, conditions under which Citizen status is removed as a penalty.

    US democracy as it is is broken, susceptible to the Ringer attack. Neither is oligarchy/monarchy the solution. Maybe some good monarchies existed, but if starting from current initial conditions, who do you suppose would rule? Or, how would we get from here to an honest monarchy? The middle road, envisioned by the Fathers as suffrage stewarded by landowners, is the answer. Reversion to landownership as the criterion won’t work (the Chinese etc would take over).

  202. After the brief and massive bump in sales of sneakers, gold chains, rims, beats headphones, pro sports team jerseys and caps, 4K TVs, hookers and marijuana and other entirely consumptive exchanges we’ll be back to square one, or rather square zero – hey whitey werz mah gibs!?

    We already gave up space exploration and who knows what else to subsidize your uplift and you didn’t rise to the occasion so, though I’m sure you don’t know or understand the meaning of the old white maxim “Don’t throw good money after bad”, I think it applies here.

  203. @OilcanFloyd
    I assume that's an insult, but I don't know what you mean.

    I assume that’s an insult, but I don’t know what you mean.

    No, it’s not an insult. I just assumed “OilcanFloyd” was a reference to the early 1980s Infocom game, PLANETFALL (in which case the reference to “Hucka-Bucka-Beanstalk,” while obscure, would’ve probably rung a bell). Now I’m thinking the handle may have just been a coincidence.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetfall

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