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From Science:

The Church, intensive kinship, and global psychological variation

Jonathan F. Schulz, Duman Bahrami-Rad, Jonathan P. Beauchamp, Joseph Henrich

Science 08 Nov 2019:
Vol. 366, Issue 6466, eaau5141

There is substantial variation in psychological attributes across cultures. Schulz et al. examined whether the spread of Catholicism in Europe generated much of this variation (see the Perspective by Gelfand). In particular, they focus on how the Church broke down extended kin-based institutions and encouraged a nuclear family structure. To do this, the authors developed measures of historical Church exposure and kin-based institutions across populations. These measures accounted for individual differences in 20 psychological outcomes collected in prior studies.

INTRODUCTION
A growing body of research suggests that populations around the globe vary substantially along several important psychological dimensions and that populations characterized as Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic (WEIRD) are particularly unusual. People from these societies tend to be more individualistic, independent, and impersonally prosocial (e.g., trusting of strangers) while revealing less conformity and in-group loyalty. Although these patterns are now well documented, few efforts have sought to explain them. Here, we propose that the Western Church (i.e., the branch of Christianity that evolved into the Roman Catholic Church) transformed European kinship structures during the Middle Ages and that this transformation was a key factor behind a shift towards a WEIRDer psychology.

RATIONALE
Our approach integrates three insights. First, anthropological evidence suggests that diverse kin-based institutions—our species’s most fundamental institutions—have been the primary structure for organizing social life in most societies around the world and back into history. With the origins of agriculture, cultural evolution increasingly favored intensive kinship norms related to cousin marriage, clans, and co-residence that fostered social tightness, interdependence, and in-group cooperation. Second, psychological research reveals that people’s motivations, emotions, and perceptions are shaped by the social norms they encounter while growing up. Within intensive kin-based institutions, people’s psychological processes adapt to the collectivistic demands of their dense social networks. Intensive kinship norms reward greater conformity, obedience, and in-group loyalty while discouraging individualism, independence, and impersonal motivations for fairness and cooperation. Third, historical research suggests that the Western Church systematically undermined Europe’s intensive kin-based institutions during the Middle Ages (for example, by banning cousin marriage). The Church’s family policies meant that by 1500 CE, and likely centuries earlier in some regions, Europe lacked strong kin-based institutions and was instead dominated by relatively independent and isolated nuclear or stem families.

Our theory predicts that populations with (i) a longer historical exposure to the medieval Western Church or less intensive kin-based institutions will be more individualistic, less conforming, and more impersonally prosocial today; and (ii) longer historical exposure to the Western Church will be associated with less-intensive kin-based institutions.

RESULTS
We test these predictions at three levels. Globally, we show that countries with longer historical exposure to the medieval Western Church or less intensive kinship (e.g., lower rates of cousin marriage) are more individualistic and independent, less conforming and obedient, and more inclined toward trust and cooperation with strangers (see figure). Focusing on Europe, where we compare regions within countries, we show that longer exposure to the Western Church is associated with less intensive kinship, greater individualism, less conformity, and more fairness and trust toward strangers. Finally, comparing only the adult children of immigrants in European countries, we show that those whose parents come from countries or ethnic groups that historically experienced more centuries under the Western Church or had less intensive kinship tend to be more individualistic, less conforming, and more inclined toward fairness and trust with strangers.

CONCLUSION
This research suggests that contemporary psychological patterns, ranging from individualism and trust to conformity and analytical thinking, have been influenced by deep cultural evolutionary processes, including the Church’s peculiar incest taboos, family policies, and enduring kin-based institutions.

 
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  1. Andrew M says:

    What about Italy? The Church is everywhere there, but the south was long seen as far more clannish than the industrialized north.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    , @utu
    , @Denis
    , @Anon
  2. Anon[387] • Disclaimer says:

    Isn’t this just a restatement of the hypothesis, rather than a vindication?

    The basic argument seems to be that contemporary “WEIRD” areas correlate with and were historically preceded by the Church, and therefore the Church caused this WEIRD psychology.

    Even if we grant this argument, and ignore inconsistencies like the most and longest Catholic areas like Italy and Ireland being less WEIRD than other areas in Europe, we’re still left with the fact that any number of things correlate with and historically precede the WEIRD psychology. The Church is not the only thing that historically distinguishes WEIRD areas from everyone else.

    • Agree: Hail
  3. @Andrew M

    No it wasn’t. The Enlightenment was born in Italy and they industrialized just as quickly.

  4. @Anon

    Ireland and Italy aren’t less weird.

    • Replies: @Pheasant
  5. The link on the title of the paper is wrong. Correct link: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/eaau5141

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  6. utu says:
    @Andrew M

    What about Italy? The Church is everywhere there, but the south was long seen as far more clannish than the industrialized north.

    Page 9, Supplementary Materials

    Southern Italian bishoprics are included after the 11th century Norman conquest when the area was integrated into the Western Church. Before this conquest Southern Italy unlikely experienced the Western Church’s MFP [Marriage and Family Program]. Many bishoprics were destroyed by the Lombard invasion5, and the remaining ones failed to consolidate power and fill the same administrative function with jurisdictional authority as those in the Carolingian Empire.6 Local customs prevailed and “religious practices differed not only from one town to another but also from church to church” (Ramseyer (37), p. 8). Lombard duchies in the South recognized Byzantine hegemony, particularly in the years during which Byzantine power was at its height (880 to 960 (38)). Apart from Lombard rule, a large area of Southern mainland was Byzantine, with its weakly-enforced MFP7. Meanwhile, Sicily was Islamic.

    Page 10, Supplementary Materials

    We divided Europe into pixels of 0.125 × 0.125 decimal degrees (about 14 by 14km at the equator; 14 by 7km at the latitude of Stockholm). For each pixel in each half-century from the year 550 to the year 1500, we calculated the distance to the nearest bishopric.8 In a given half-century, a pixel was assigned the value of ‘1’ if there was a bishopric within 100km of the pixel’s centroid (and ‘0’ otherwise). We then summed each pixel’s exposure over all half-centuries (and multiplied it by 1⁄2, to get a measure expressed in centuries), yielding an approximate measure of the duration of the pixel’s exposure to the Western Church’s MFP in centuries.

    We also constructed a population-weighted measure addressing concerns that the indicator may give too much weight to unpopulated pixels within a region. We did this by assigning lower weight to pixels in which there is less population when aggregating to the regional level. The weights are based on pixel-level population estimates for the year 500, taken from (42, 43)); these population estimates are based on geographic factors and assign higher population density to areas that are more easily reached, such as areas close to rivers or far from mountains.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  7. @Father O'Hara

    The Irish maintained the clan system until the country was conquered by the English in Elizabethan times. In Ireland, it was the English who broke apart the clan system.

  8. Marx remarked about Darwins “On the Origin of Species”, that this book was “the foundation in natural history” – of his and Friedrich Engel’s convictions, in general ****.

    In light of this HBD-Chick vindication above, I conclude, that Marx’s idea of religion as pure opium of the people is not quite right. The Christian Religion was no opium at all, but rather – a very powerful nutrition for the (Europen) people. At least one of the most powerful nutritions of all so to speak.

    ****

    I found this Marx quote in: Auch eine Gechichte der Philosophie**** by Jürgen Habermas, Vol. II, p. 596

    **** roughly- Also a History of Philosophy the main focus of this 1700 pages tome, lies on the co-evolution of the Evening Empire’s central thoughts – and the Jewish, Buddhist and Christian religion.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  9. Among the more interesting of Kevin B. MacDonald’s writings is this essay, “What Makes Western Culture Unique?” Of course, he’s a thought criminal …

  10. utu says:

    The same authors in this paper:

    The Origins of WEIRD Psychology
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326132957_The_Origins_of_WEIRD_Psychology

    explain how they define and calculate their kinship intensity index (KII) which consists of five sub-indicators:

    Cousin marriage preference
    Polygamy
    Co-residence of extended families
    Lineage organization
    Community organization

    It’s interesting that in Europe Finland has very high KII like India or Muslim countries.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @utu
  11. … including the Church’s peculiar incest taboos, ….

    Incest taboos are fairly common in more propserous and civilised societies, where people can afford to be more picky in the name of better health and development. It has nothing to do with “The Church.”

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
  12. Anonymous[402] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    That’s because KII for Finland is based on guesswork and the guess was wrong. Their dataset doesn’t have Finns or for that matter Germans, Bretons, Sorbs, Sardinians, Sicilians etc. so all their values have been extrapolated with varying degrees of success.
    Fortunately the data is public so this error was immediately noticeable.
    https://d-place.org/societysets/EA#1/30/152

    The Ingrians, Finnish diaspora in southern St. Petersburg region, are in the dataset and have low KII as expected.

  13. utu says:
    @utu

    On Church Marriage and Family Program (MFP) form

    The Origins of WEIRD Psychology
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326132957_The_Origins_of_WEIRD_Psychology

    Finally, based on historical evidence, the third insight suggests that the branch of Western Christianity that eventually evolved into the Roman Catholic Church—hereafter, ‘the Western Church’ or simply ‘the Church’—systematically undermined the intensive kin-based institutions of Europe during the Middle Ages (45–52). The Church’s marriage policies and prohibitions, which we will call the Marriage and Family Program (MFP), meant that by 1500 CE, and likely centuries earlier in some regions, Europe lacked strong kin-based institutions, and was instead dominated by relatively weak, independent and isolated nuclear or stem families (49–51, 53–56). This made people exposed to Western Christendom rather unlike nearly all other populations.

    Meanwhile, by Late Antiquity, the Church had begun systematically dismantling the intensive kin-based institutions of Western Europe by banning or otherwise undercutting crucial practices. Prior to the Church’s efforts, the kin-based institutions of European populations looked much like other agricultural societies and included patrilineal clans, kindreds, cousin marriage, polygyny, ancestor worship and corporate ownership (47, 49, 92–94, 52, 85–91). As documented in Supplementary S2, the Church’s Marriage and Family Program (MFP) began with targeted bans on certain marriage practices used to sustain marriage alliances between families (e.g., levirate marriage); however, by the Early Middle Ages, the Church had become obsessed with incest and had begun to expand the circle of forbidden relatives, eventually including not only distant cousins but also step-relatives, in-laws and spiritual-kin. Early in the new millennium, the ban was stretched out to encompass sixth cousins, including all affines (Table S2.1). At the same time, the Church promoted marriage ‘by choice’ (no arranged marriages) and often required newly married couples to set up independent households (neolocal residence). The Church also forced an end to many lineages by eliminating legal adoption, remarriage and all forms of polygamous marriage as well as concubinage, which meant that many lineages began literally dying out as they lacked legitimate heirs. In the 8th century, the Church found a common cause with the Frankish Kings, eventually leading the Carolingian Empire to put its secular power behind the Church’s MFP (Table S2.1) (47, 49, 52, 95).

    Nestorian and Coptic Christians, for example, continued marrying their cousins for at least another millennium. And, while the Eastern Orthodox Church did adopt some of the same prohibitions as the Western Church, it never endorsed the Western Church’s broad taboos on cousin marriage, was slow to adopt many policies, and was generally unenthusiastic about enforcement.

    Others Christian sects with different marriage prohibitions existed. For example, Celtic and Nestorian Christianity enforced no prohibitions that went beyond those stated in the Bible (51)

    And much more of fascinating material in Supplementary S2

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @Denis
  14. donut says:

    I remember going to bed with my transistor radio under the pillow listening to everything from Gene Pitney to Chubby Checker to Sonny and Cher , country , blues and Telstar .

    And Mr . Acker Bilk

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @dearieme
  15. @Redneck farmer

    OT:

    The 16th generation ancestors of Hernan Cortes and Moctezuma met Friday to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Spanish conquest of Mexico.

    Any comments on the appearance of the two men (one short and dumpy, the other tall and elegantly dressed) in the picture?

    https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2019/11/09/PDTN/eaf35e63-b3b1-4e1b-81b1-8a04c85ee03f-AP19312810393755.jpg?crop=4617,3237,x0,y0&width=540&height=&fit=bounds&auto=webp

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @J.Ross
  16. Anon[416] • Disclaimer says:

  17. So these guys just stole her ideas without giving a shred of credit?

  18. ic1000 says:

    HBD Chick is an admirable intellectual, in terms of her insights, her writing, and her online persona.

    From what Steve posted (I haven’t read the paper), it seems the Science authors didn’t cite or acknowledge her work, which would be both disappointing and par for the course. Do they explicitly discuss John Hajnal’s ideas (Hajnal Line)?

    [Edit: I checked. These authors are niggardly in acknowledging any prior work by Hajnal or HBD Chick.]

    • Agree: jim jones
  19. conatus says:

    Kevin MacDonald has espoused similar ideas.

    What Makes Western Culture Unique?
    Kevin MacDonald

    In general, cultural uniqueness could derive from either nature or nurture—the same old ageless dichotomy, but I think now we are in a better position to deal with these issues than in times past, and I will be arguing that both are important. Western cultures have experienced certain unique cultural transformations that cannot be predicted by any biological/evolutionary theory, but they also have had a unique evolutionary history. Western culture was built by people who differ genetically from those who have built the other civilizations and cultures of the world. In the following I will argue that Western cultures have a unique cultural profile compared to other traditional civilizations:

    The Catholic Church and Christianity.
    A tendency toward monogamy.
    A tendency toward simple family structure based on the nuclear family.
    A greater tendency for marriage to be companionate and based on mutual affection of the partners.
    A de-emphasis on extended kinship relationships and its correlative, a relative lack of ethnocentrism.
    A tendency toward individualism and all of its implications: individual rights against the state, representative government, moral universalism, and science.

    http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/WesternOrigins.htm

  20. BB753 says:

    Christianity reached Scandinavia very late, yet they’re tame as lambs. How do they account for that?

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  21. Anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:

    The Church’s family policies meant that by 1500 CE, and likely centuries earlier

    How obnoxious.

    • Agree: Daniel H
  22. dearieme says:
    @ic1000

    These authors are niggardly in acknowledging any prior work by Hajnal or HBD Chick.

    Oh dear: academic spivs, then. All too common.

    By the way, do they explain the high trust society of Japan? When the early European navigators reached The Orient, they – both Portuguese and later Dutch – thought the Japanese easily the most impressive bunch they’d met on their travels.

    • Agree: jim jones
  23. Thea says:

    This would explain constant conflict with the locals and small, insular groups like Jews and Gypsys.

    It also opens an avenue for exploitation of the larger, less nepotistic population.

  24. songbird says:
    @Father O'Hara

    What about the Irish?

    Tanistry seems like it was often a pretty bloody system, with kin killing kin – often people who shared 25-50% of their DNA. I wonder how selection works in such a system. Maybe, on lower levels than the derbfine?

  25. Related to “HBD”:

    Evolutionary speaking….which was come first:Ben Shapiro….or….the lowly filthy fucking Cockroach?…..

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    , @Pericles
  26. Sean says:
    @Anon

    HBD whatever thinks that cousin marriage was endemic in priest-ridden southern Ireland. This is an idea of Victorian anthropologists.

    The Scottish Highlands had cousin marriage (there were very very few priests their under the Clan system) but Canada should be the most violent country in the Western world if she was right.

    • Replies: @Darryl
    , @Pheasant
  27. The Z Blog says: • Website

    This was linked by JayMan: https://twitter.com/prof_gabriele/status/1192655774029406209

    No group gets more rustled by quantitative approaches than the humanities people.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  28. What – according to this viewpoint – distinguished Catholic teaching from Orthodox teaching?

    • Replies: @utu
  29. I gather that the paper focuses strictly on the effects of cultural evolution. But cultural evolution can of course also alter genetic evolution.

    For example, it may be that the sort of forces Gregory Clark depicted in Farewell to Alms, in which the progeny of nobles and the rich started to dominate in the population, depended on the cultural context created by outlawing cousin marriage. That is, in that context marriage was much later on average and many adults never reproduced, presumably favoring the more successful.

    If Clark is right as to the genetic changes pre-dating and underlying the industrial revolution, then an important component has been neglected in this analysis.

  30. bob sykes says:

    The real issue is whether to be WEIRD is a good thing. It is pretty obvious that it is self destructive (open borders, LGBTWTF), and that it seems to violate the Darwinian Theory of Natural Selection.

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    , @Anon
  31. Darryl says:
    @Sean

    @Sean

    If you consider hockey, Canada IS the most violent country in the Western world!

    • LOL: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Sean
    , @Reg Cæsar
  32. Alice says:

    one institution I’d like more discussion of in thr outcome of the clan breakdown s the invention of science. Talking about the Enlightenment is too broad, because science managed to be done by populations with very different takes on political philosophy.

    The personality of good science exists at the individual and institutional level. It requires a high level of honesty and conscientious at the personal level as well as stranger trust and less conformity. It has those at an institutional level too.

    I propose good science is less possible in clannish kinship marriage ethnic groups, even if those groups have higher IQ on average, because they cannot perform the self skepticism to trust data over people, nor can they be trusted not to game the system, as they don’t think it’s wrong to do so.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    , @Anonymous
  33. Rapid rewind to 5th century BC. Legally Athens was made up of households. Householders intended that their house be perpetuated through their sons. When that didn’t work out, the government had legal provisions in place to assign a guardian. Inheritence law was similar to that of today. If we are go on the basis of the social intercourse represented by Plato in his dialogues, psychologically speaking, Socrates and his interlocuters converse according to a WEIRD level of trust between unrelated individuals. It seems that the ancient Greeks created a huge Hagnal line encompassing the Greek οἰκουμένη.

  34. Spangel says:
    @Anon

    Agree. It is a restatement of the hypothesis, which I’ve never seen real proof of. I’ve certainly never seen real evidence that among Europeans, there was a more sustained and effectively enforced effort against cousin marriage west vs east of the hanjal line.

    Otherwise, is there dna evidence to show that cousin or incestuous marriage was less common among Europeans among the last 1500 years for prolonged periods? I’m sure it must have been compared to the Middle East or South Asia, but against the Far East or Central America or sub Saharan Africa etc?

  35. @donut

    Pray give some help to a simple craftsman, sir.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  36. @Father O'Hara

    What about the Irish?

    A question many have asked.

    Counterinsurgency

  37. @byrresheim

    Pray give some help to a simple craftsman, sir.

    Apparently it’s a Gaul killing his wife, then himself, presumably after being defeated by a Roman army [1]. They took things pretty seriously back then, and didn’t have much empathy.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] [Search domain http://www.academia.edu/5180896/The_Galatian_Suicide_Unravelling_the_Ludovisi_Gaul_killing_himself_and_his_wife%5D https://www.academia.edu/5180896/The_Galatian_Suicide_Unravelling_the_Ludovisi_G

  38. Svevlad says:
    @bob sykes

    it’s good and bad. You should only be a little weird, like Eastern Europe

    Western Europe got extra weirded due to some very ancient bullshit added too, + manoralism later (not the church)

    • Agree: Haruto Rat
  39. utu says:
    @Henry's Cat

    “What – according to this viewpoint – distinguished Catholic teaching from Orthodox teaching?”

    “Substantial debates persist about why the Church adopted the MFP, which we summarize in Supplementary S2. Support for the full extent of the MFP policies certainly cannot be found in the Bible, and the other branches of Christianity never went so far. Nestorian and Coptic Christians, for example, continued marrying their cousins for at least another millennium. And, while the Eastern Orthodox Church did adopt some of the same prohibitions as the Western Church, it never endorsed the Western Church’s broad taboos on cousin marriage, was slow to adopt many policies, and was generally unenthusiastic about enforcement. From a cultural evolutionary point of view, diverse religious communities may coalesce on their own beliefs and practices for idiosyncratic or historically contingent reasons, but the broad diffusion of particular beliefs and practices depend on how they shape long-term success (83). Consistent with this, much evidence indicates that the immense financial success of the Church during the Middle Ages can be tied back to the MFP (47, 49, 98).”

  40. @ic1000

    HBD Chick is an admirable intellectual, in terms of her insights, her writing, and her online persona.

    Agree.

    Also HBD Chick’s explantions go well beyond the Church’s de-tribalizing–which strikes me as obviously huge in creating the “trust-at-scale” capability of modern Europeans that was a huge factor in creating the modern nation state and in the rise of the West.

    HBD Chick has also proposed the manoralism–specifically working with and having to trust non-kin–was another important factor. This strikes me as likely correct as well and helps explain some of the other variation we see.

    Obviously there are yet more factors in play: climate, that character and density of the farming activity, etc. etc. And all this is on top of the underlying genetic substrate and Euro-Aryan culture of pre-Christian Europeans.

  41. @Anon

    we’re still left with the fact that any number of things correlate with and historically precede the WEIRD psychology. The Church is not the only thing that historically distinguishes WEIRD areas from everyone else.

    Kevin MacDonald’s latest book, _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_, 2019/09/14, considers this exact question at length. He traces a plausible initial condition of WEIRDness back to the late Neolithic, and then adds other contributory events.

    Counterinsurgency

  42. Not Raul says:
    @utu

    Yes, exactly!

    And this would also explain why historically Catholic Northern Italy has tended to be a lot more WEIRD than historically Norman-Arab-Byzantine Southern Italy.

    • Replies: @Disordered Deek
  43. @donut

    I remember going to bed with my transistor radio under the pillow listening to everything from Gene Pitney to Chubby Checker to Sonny and Cher , country , blues and Telstar .

    Schizophrene Joe Meek was accused of stealing “Telstar”‘s melody, consciously or subconsciously, from a French movie score. That, an arrest for cottaging, and watching that mop-topped band he advised fellow suicidal poofter Brian Epstein not to sign ride to the top of the business pushed him over the edge. Too bad– he won the suit posthumously.

    “Stranger on the Shore”, that other pre-invasion Brit instrumental hit, was awfully popular on the radio in Hawaii, which has a lot of lonely shoreline.

    What any of this has to do with the topic at hand, only Do[ugh]nut can tell us.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Dieter Kief
  44. @Paul Jolliffe

    The 16th generation ancestors of Hernan Cortes and Moctezuma met Friday to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Spanish conquest of Mexico.

    Please tell us you meant “descendants”.

    Wasn’t Cortes supposed to be the ancestor of Moctezuma come back to life? And what does our commenter Cortes have to say about this?

  45. @AnotherDad

    HBD Chick has also proposed the manoralism–specifically working with and having to trust non-kin–was another important factor. This strikes me as likely correct as well and helps explain some of the other variation we see.

    Researching my sister-in-law’s family tree, I learned that her surname came from the manor, actually farmstead, outside Trondheim on which her ancestor was sent to work.

    Norway was relatively late to Christendom, and less inclined to settled agriculture and urbanization for that matter, yet seems well along the individuality index.

  46. Ian Smith says:

    For people like E. Michael Jones who claim that Europe is great because of Catholicism, why hasn’t Catholicism lifted Guatemala and Angola up to the level of France?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • LOL: Haruto Rat
    • Replies: @Haruto Rat
  47. @BB753

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/hbd-chick-vindicated/#comment-3548507
    post 2019/11/09/13:59S

    Christianity reached Scandinavia very late, yet they’re tame as lambs. How do they account for that?

    Kevin MacDonald [1] points out that hunter-gatherers persisted longer in NW Europe than in most places, and contributed significantly to the current gene pool. KM suggests that, since hunter-gatherers are more egalitarian than most, this accounts for a general gradient towards egalitarian behavior as one gets closer to NW Europe. The raiding associated with Scandinavians is said to be a contribution of what used to be called the Aryan invasion. KM also suggests that if you think Scandinavians are as tame as lambs, try going to Scandinavia and breaking the local consensus. Try denouncing equal rights for women, for example. If you’re really foreign, hence a permanent outsider, you might not draw the full effect and might have to watch what happens to a local when he/she breaks it.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] Kevin MacDonald.
    _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition: Evolutionary origins, History, and Prospects for the Future_.
    Available as Kindle Unlimited bonus, $0.00, or paperback, $24.95. 2019/09/13.

    • Replies: @BB753
  48. Dutch Boy says:

    The main thrust of Church teaching emphasizes the primacy of the family over individual interests. Opposition to consanguinity is entirely in this vein, as cousin marriage is hostile to healthy children, who are the focus of family life. What has happened is that liberalism has replaced Church teaching (especially in Protestant countries where the Church has minimal influence) and resulted in all the anti-family, pro-libertine social policies of the modern state.

  49. OP says:

    This would explain the relative insanity and self-destructive tendencies of NE Spain vs. the South and Portugal.

  50. Sean says:
    @Darryl

    Glengarry County should be extremely violent within Canada, seeing as how it was settled by the fearsome tribe of extortionists and enforcers that was Clan MacDonnell.

    Another thing, this folkway talk about Scotland Borders being the origin of the Ulster Scots is by people who don’t have access to a map. You can see Northern Ireland from Ayr on a clear day.

    • Replies: @Bert
    , @Alden
  51. HBD Chick Vindicated

    This also supports large parts of Kevin MacDonald’s What Makes Western Culture Unique.

    http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/west-toq.htm

  52. @Alice

    one institution I’d like more discussion of in thr outcome of the clan breakdown s the invention of science.

    I propose good science is less possible in clannish kinship marriage ethnic groups, even if those groups have higher IQ on average, because they cannot perform the self skepticism to trust data over people, nor can they be trusted not to game the system, as they don’t think it’s wrong to do so.

    Excellent comment Alice.

    I’ve thought through the broad–there are many–benefits of the Western personality package, but hadn’t thought specifically about science.

  53. @The Alarmist

    China, Japan and Korea would be interesting subject populations for incest/cousin marriage studies.

    • Replies: @Disordered Deek
  54. Anonymous[333] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alice

    The personality of good science exists at the individual and institutional level. It requires a high level of honesty and conscientious at the personal level as well as stranger trust and less conformity. It has those at an institutional level too.

    What you’re describing is “science” like how contemporary liberals understand it. A kind of rationalistic, conscientious consensus seeking.

    However, if you look at the actual history of science and the particular great men who developed it, they often weren’t like this at all. Newton for example was extremely furtive, paranoid, anti-social and would attack other people and accuse them of plagiarism while hiding and keeping his work to himself.

  55. Cpluskx says:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Runs-of-homozygosity-by-cohort-The-sum-of-runs-of-homozygosity-SROH-and-the-number-of_fig2_279514810

    According to ROH scores Finland is more inbred than most of Europe and also more WEIRD than most of Europe. Same result for the IBD rates too. Unconvincing.

    • Replies: @Disordered Deek
  56. dearieme says:
    @donut

    Here’s an Acker film I like.

  57. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:

    There is the more cynical interpretation of the Church and its marriage and family policies. That with the decline of Roman military and civil authority and power, Rome could no longer implement genetic pacification and control through its traditional military means, and thus via the Church turned to a kind of cultural and ideological imperialism throughout Western Europe instead.

    The attack on kin-based relations and organization in Western Europe would weaken alternative power centers and allegiances and bind the subjects of Christendom closer to the metropole of Rome, and create a larger tax base for Rome via tithing, indulgences,the breaking up of family estates, acquisitions of property, etc. It’s analogous to how the US federal government has aggrandized itself by weakening state and local allegiances and power. For most of the Church’s history, the Church hierarchy was dominated by Italians and often by particular Italian families via nepotism. So the Church tried to weaken local allegiances and power outside of Rome throughout Western Europe while in Rome being dominated by local insiders and their families. This is also analogous to DC and the fed government, which is dominated by insiders, nepotism, certain protected and favored classes and groups.

    Peter Frost has written about Rome and genetic pacification:

    https://www.unz.com/pfrost/roman-state-and-genetic-pacification/

    • Agree: Hail
  58. Off topic:

    Steve

    Olympic Silver Medalist Debbie Thomas……..another holy shit story….do you know about the story?….But not nearly as holy shit as my late Dermatologist whose body on a stretcher was on the front page of the Daily News…..New York Post….NYT……

    • Replies: @danand
  59. @Ian Smith

    To be fair, Catholicism has done relatively well for some island countries (e.g. Cape Verde).

    On the other hand, no religion could ever help plains.

    • Replies: @Ian Smith
  60. @ic1000

    Yup, I was stuck by the absence of any mention of Mr Hajnal’s line.
    I fear his work will go the way of the so called “MITI” study of innovation which seems to have been pretty much memory holed in its entirety,

  61. Ian Smith says:
    @Haruto Rat

    “On the other hand, no religion could ever help plains”

    Protestantism seems to have made Iowa a livable enough place.

  62. The real issue is whether to be WEIRD is a good thing. It is pretty obvious that it is self destructive (open borders, LGBTWTF), and that it seems to violate the Darwinian Theory of Natural Selection.

    It’s a very good thing–but with proper cultural conditioning.

    The package has enabled trust-at-scale, the rise of nations, of science, of technology, of rule of law and republican government. Basically the rise of Western Civilization.

    But this WEIRD de-tribalized package worked within our own borders and when we had the proper cultural conditioning to identify people who were *not* us–not playing by the same WEIRD rules, not part of our nation, but part of some other tribe–Jews, Gypsies, foreigners, the Turk.

    Today, everyone in the West–particularly those most exposed to American cultural influence–have been pickled in Jewish minoritarianism–minorities good, majorities bad–for 50+ years. Complete with utter nonsense like “everyone’s the same” and “diversity is our strength”. (Don’t ask me about the contradiction there.) And people, especially those most susceptible to social conformity (i.e. women) and globalist elites, no longer even understand that they are entitled to live as they would like in their own nation.

    Needless to say believing everyone is “family”; saying “refugees welcome”; not enforcing strong borders does not lead to a healthy society but to infection, illness and death.

    Essentially the West is immunosuppressed. Basically the West has AIDS.

    • Agree: BenKenobi
  63. @Dieter Kief

    Society can ban first-cousin marriage and reap the genetic and social benefits, without subscribing to Christianity or Catholicism.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Reg Cæsar
  64. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Schizophrene Joe Meek was accused of stealing “Telstar”‘s melody, consciously or subconsciously, from a French movie score. That, an arrest for cottaging, and watching that mop-topped band he advised fellow suicidal poofter Brian Epstein not to sign ride to the top of the business pushed him over the edge. Too bad– he won the suit posthumously.

    Joe Meek was a crazy bastard, but he had some talent.

    ALL ABOUT THE MAN NAMED “JOE MEEK”
    Here are some links on Joe Meek you might find interesting. They offer some history on the man, his contributions to the music industry, and where to get some of his early recordings. We hope you appreciate them:-

    http://www.joemeek.com/aboutjoemeek.html

  65. @RadicalCenter

    ‘Society can ban first-cousin marriage and reap the genetic and social benefits, without subscribing to Christianity or Catholicism.’

    Yeah, but with Christianity or Catholicism, you get the genetic and social benefits, plus eternal salvation!

    Now, top that.

    • LOL: Dieter Kief
  66. Templar says:
    @Father O'Hara

    Although Ireland was following a form of Christianity as early as AD400 it was regarded by the Church in Rome as notoriously schismatic.
    Roman Catholicism did not get established in Ireland until the 12th Century with the arrival of the Anglo Normans.
    Effectively the Irish were turned into good Catholics at the point of an English sword.
    The Anglo Norman cleric Gerard of Wales left this account of Irish incest and birth defects writing circa AD1180

    “Distinction III *Chapter XXXV (Of the number of persons in this nation who have bodily defects): Moreover, I have never seen in any other nation so many individuals who were born blind, so many lame, maimed or having some natural defect. The persons of those who are well-formed are indeed remarkably fine, nowhere better; but as those who are favoured with the gifts of nature grow up exceedingly handsome, those from whom she withholds them are frightfully ugly. No wonder if among an adulterous and incestuous people, in which both births and marriages are illegitimate, a nation out of the pale of the laws, nature herself should be foully corrupted by perverse habits. It should seem that by the just judgements of God, nature sometimes produces such objects, contrary to her own laws, in order that those who will not regard Him duly by the light of their own consciences, should often have to lament their privations of the exterior and bodily gift of sight.”
    Gerard was very well travelled and journeyed to Rome several times.

  67. Denis says:
    @Andrew M

    Southern Italy was once predominantly under the sway Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and following this was under Islamic rule for centuries. It was only firmly under the Western Church’s control after the reconquest by the Normans.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  68. Denis says:
    @utu

    Thank you for these highlights, made me want to read the article in full.

  69. @RadicalCenter

    Society can ban first-cousin marriage and reap the genetic and social benefits, without subscribing to Christianity or Catholicism.

    So why haven’t they done so?

    The secular trend is toward loosening the rules, not tightening them:

    Cousin Marriage OK by Science –Wired

    Ban on first-cousin marriages ‘not necessary’. –New Scientist

    Shaking Off the ShameNew York Times

    William Saletan demolishes the scientific case against cousin marriage, then comes down strongly for the moral case against it:

    The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Surname
    What’s wrong with marrying your cousin?

    But then we’re imposing our beliefs upon others. How Christian of us.

  70. “Here, we propose that the Western Church (i.e., the branch of Christianity that evolved into the Roman Catholic Church) transformed European kinship structures during the Middle Ages …”

    To deal with reality for a moment: it didn’t evolve, it was there at the start, and it wasn’t a ‘branch of Christianity’… it was the Church that Christ founded. I mean, there is just no serious challenge to this basic historical fact.

    There were breakaways, yes, but the original thing wasn’t a ‘branch.’

  71. @Reg Cæsar

    I remember an article that said cousin marriage is ok for the first four generations, after that the number of problems starts to soar.

  72. You mean “F. Roger Devlin” vindicated, right?

  73. @AnotherDad

    HBD Chick has also proposed the manoralism–specifically working with and having to trust non-kin–was another important factor. This strikes me as likely correct as well and helps explain some of the other variation we see.

    A few days ago I read an interview with a non-politically-correct scholar about Islam and he said, that there are huge differences clannishness in the Arab countries between nomads, half-nomads, farmers and families living in cities, with the nomads being the most clannish.

  74. Pheasant says:
    @Sean

    Plenty of cousin marriage in my family in Ireland. Glasgow is an extremely violent city by anoyone’s standards.

    You are discounting external and internal migration. The British empire had an effect on the highland Scots who promptly became its warriors and administrators as well as sone of its best citizens. See plains abrahms et al.

  75. Pheasant says:
    @Sam Coulton

    They really are. They were only nominall catholic and have embraced globalism with gusto.

  76. Pheasant says:

    What about genetic bottlenecks?

    I am thinking of French Canadians in particular they are all meant to be relatively (pun) inbred and have a high instance of tay-sachs disease for example.

  77. @Denis

    Southern Italy was still primarily Eastern Orthodox in orientation for several centuries after the establishment of the Normans. This is the reason why the Norman kings decorated their churches with Byzantines art in order to appeal to the population i.e. Martorana, Monreale, Cappella Palatina, Cefalu cathedral.

  78. @Reg Cæsar

    William Saletan demolishes the scientific case against cousin marriage, then comes down strongly for the moral case against it:

    The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Surname
    What’s wrong with marrying your cousin?

    But then we’re imposing our beliefs upon others. How Christian of us.

    Uh. You are aware Saletan is a Jew, right?

    However, he is a Jew who does sometimes promote Christianity… when he can use it to gaslight white people to be more supportive of nonwhite immigration:

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/11/trumps-christian-apologists-are-unchristian.html

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  79. @Reg Cæsar

    So why haven’t they done so?

    – Because “nothing feels better than blood on blood” (B. Springsteen Nebraska).

    The next question is: Why did Christianity succeed in installing this costly rule not to marry your cousin – and the even more important question might then be:

    At what social costs did the Christian culture manage to keep this rule alife?

    (A hint: The most devastating war ever in central Europe – the 30-year war- etc. pp.).

    The benefits of this rule not to marry your cousin are as obvious as its costs.

    Habermas’ new tome (1700p. – – – ) answers another question, which is usually completely neglected by the likes of Richard Dawkins et. al. (Karl Marx, Christopher Hitchens, William Ornard van Quine, Sam Harris…) – what did the Christian way of life enable to install this (socially and politically) extremely costly rule? – The answer is manyfold. Love is a part of it. Art (think of Tom Wolfe, Thomas Mann & Boticelli…) music, and – at a very abstract (philosophical) level one simple accomplishment: The institutionalization of objectivity and – heterogeneity in developing the European system of public discourse, which the European universities (- should at least -) still stand for (and hopefully continue to do so).

    As Arno Borst could show (cf. The Ordering of Time – From the Ancient Computus to the Modern Computer) , the institutionalization of objectivity came first in the course of a developing Christian culture- with Hermanus Contractus being one of the great founding father’s post-Christ. Occam, Eckhart, Duns Scotus et. al. then established a discourse (= institutionally accepted disagreements = DEBATES) about issues of fundamental importance for the whole of Christian thought (cf. the struggle between the nominalists and the realists about the universals // the problem of the universals).

    Then came Luther , Zwingli and Calvin and intensified the existing practical and methodical tensions – all still within the Christian culture. Seen from this perspective, what’s so special and what was so productive in the Christian tradition is the fusion of fire and ice: Love – and the freedom to disagree.

    PS

    Michel Houellebecq’s big point is, that he understands, just how stressing the Christian way of the restricted bonds is – and how much of a temptation it is, to just give in to the more warm and basic Islamic Mindset – and that he even though insists on – our traditions, so to speak – not least the Swiss tradition of – direct democracy (something which would have been impossible without Zwingli and Calvin) and the American tradition of free speech – above all (his last novel is called Sérotonine and pays tribute to one of the more prominent American proponents of free speech – Jordan B. Peterson and his – now: famous – lobster.

    PPS

    Habermas expresses a deep doubt and (personal) exhaustion in his book about the way, philosophy is being practiced nowadays. He even doubts – whether it can go on in the extremely costly manner, which – he himself, not least… has established. – Cf. “Submission” by – – Michel Houellebecq and – – – The Strange Death of Europe by – the other Murray, so to speak. Douglas. – In Murray’s book, you find this exhaustion too.

    PPPS

    I think, studies like this one presented by Steve Sailer above are not least – – – very refreshing, because they – – – make the deep problems of our culture visible in a more profane way while being (concerning what they show) quite easy to grasp. – They are the missing link between history, social psychology, sociology, and philosophy.

    PPPPS

    It might help philosophy and sociology (Habermas is a philosopher and a sociologist) to come out of their indeed exhausting conundrums caused by the not-rooted concept of universalization if these disciplines would accept what Karl Marx seemed to have understood right away, when having a first glimpse at Darwin’s “On the Origins of Species” – that we are indeed restricted (and formed) not only by societal means and customs and religion and all that, but also by (our) nature. 

    (A last PS

    What I wrote above could I think quite easily be read as a big applause! applause! for The Bell Curve.)

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Alden
  80. @Reg Cæsar

    Your post is a novel in a nutshell. New genre: Novels for those in a hurry. Or: Occam’s novels.

  81. @Peripatetic Commenter

    The NYT soon to come up with: New islamophobic study claims to prove white supremacy!

  82. danand says:

    “People from these societies tend to be more individualistic, independent, and impersonally prosocial (e.g., trusting of strangers) while revealing less conformity and in-group loyalty.”

    Runner Mary Cain’s story/view on trust & independence:

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  83. Bert says:
    @AnotherDad

    Yes, HBD Chick’s reasoning about the causes of northwestern Europe’s unique flowering is impressive. She throws out important insights whenever she addresses the topic. Here is her most recent Twitter comment.

    “schulz et al. have done a lot of fabulous work here (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/eaau5141 …), but they’re still missing out on two critical points:

    1) evolution can be recent, rapid, and local;
    2) how viscous populations are *overall* likely affects the genetical evolution of social behavior.”

    Her key point here is that in a particular (say manorial) social environment, if reproduction is dependent upon cooperation and non-violent redress of grievances, then the genetics of the population can respond rapidly. A prosocial psychology can evolve. But a rapid response will only be possible if there is low gene flow (high viscosity, in HBD’s terms) because gene flow from outside the area of selection will counter local selection.

    In manorial northwestern Europe, the condition of low gene flow would seem to have been present for two reasons. First the manorial system was geographically widespread. In population genetics terminology, there was a large “pocket” in which the prosocial genetic variants were favored, so that even if gene flow was not strictly local, incoming alleles would still be those being selectively favored locally. But in fact after the Migration Period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period) and the establishment of manorial agriculture, marriage heterogamy was extremely low in northwestern Europe (https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol23/33/23-33.pdf). Until well into the 20th century marriage partners were found very close by, so gene flow was minimal for 40 or more generations. This is in contrast to other large mammals which, like humans, are capable of long-distance movement, and surely also in contrast to the gene flow that existed among human populations in pre-manorial times.

    An evolutionary explanation of the unique psychology of northwestern Europeans is surely multi-factorial, but the absence of dedifferentiating gene flow was a necessary condition.

  84. Hail says: • Website
    @Reg Cæsar

    Strange mix of US states that allow or ban first-cousin marriage. How to explain?

    • Replies: @anon
  85. Bert says:
    @Sean

    If by “Scotland Borders” you are referring to reiver families, then yes they were a minority of those colonizing Ulster. However, the majority of the colonists were British Borderers, both lowland Scot and English from Yorkshire and northward, and presumably subject to whatever genetic effects 300 years of border raiding and war might have had.

    One also should note that the colonists were those individuals bold enough to enter a foreign land and displace natives. Such self-selection right away creates a genetic subset that likely differs from the stay-at-homes.

    • Replies: @Sean
  86. So The Orange Miss Piggy (TOMP), Jo(e) Swine-Scot has stuffed his/her/its piggy snout into Rothschild’s pozzed anti-GWM rat-hole.

    I would say the TOMP ho swallowed kosher pozzage, but TOMP ain’t just Too Tall, she also –
    Too Dumpy
    Too Ugly
    Too Pig-Nosed
    Too Pig-Cheeked
    Too Gap-Toothed
    Too Mousey Haired
    Too Broad-Shouldered
    Too Much +Size20
    Too Scots

    So there must be another reason the Rats chose you as their Misandrist Poz-Pusher.

    No GWM will vote for such an orange frump, so unfeminine that it wears disgusting tops showing its broad manly shoulders + tranny blobs of chest fat. I could see the years of who range diet – porcine pink deep fried mars bars. Had to delay my meal.

    I guess the diet of dfmb, bru, religious bigotry, violence, & post-wall lunacy are a feature not a bug for Rothschild.

    Srsly (Spiked is Right) sick of all these NPC frumpols acting as judasrats to White Men. Wish one of the Piggy Mr(s) Doibtfire Parents had taken one too many heroin shots @ da Lodge, worn hiHeels & smashed their skull!

    White Men should refuse these NPC hags:
    Car Repairs
    Rubbish Collection
    Heavy Lifting jobs
    Electrics
    Plumbing
    & SAF don’t vote these dirtt orange racists libdems!!!

    NicolasWintonKrankeesDoubleAct

  87. anon[105] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dieter Kief

    the Swiss tradition of – direct democracy (something which would have been impossible without Zwingli and Calvin)

    The Swiss tradition of direct democracy originated in the Forest Canton self-government. In time it led to a revolt against Austrian oppression during the 14th century. The important battle of Morgarten was in 1315. Zwingli was born about 150 years later, in 1484. It is impossible for him to influence events that happened over 100 years before he was born.

    https://wiki2.org/en/Old_Swiss_Confederacy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huldrych_Zwingli

    If you cannot get the basic facts right, your opinion is built on sand.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Dieter Kief
  88. anon[105] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    Strange mix of US states that allow or ban first-cousin marriage. How to explain?

    Cultural for a start. The dates of legislation would help. Has California always not cared? Has it always been a crime in Arizona? Etc.

    If the Catholic church is opposed to cousin marriage, it sure doesn’t seem to have much effect from Mexico all the way south to Tierra del Fuego.

    If cousin marriage isn’t a big deal for g, that evidence sure seems flimsy. South America, North Africa not powerhouses of thinking.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  89. Anon[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrew M

    It’s different races, with 10 IQ points of difference between them in Italy. Like Anglos and Mexicans, who, due to the smarter half invading and subjecting the other half (which of course is called “unification”), ended up in the same country.

    Since then, and it’s more than one hundred and fifty years, the North pays a yearly “alimony” to the South, because the South is “in the process of developing”. Lol.

    I am a Southern Italian by the way.

  90. Anon[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @bob sykes

    It depends. When it confuses your established, prejudiced views, it’s bad. If it confuses you a lot, it’s a lot of bad.

    In the end, “natural selection” sides with the majority, and they are the majority because they already “violated” natural selection less than who are the minority.

  91. @War for Blair Mountain

    Unlike Little Benny, cockroaches are hardy little f**kers – tough little SOBs. One day they shall inherit the earth.

  92. @Reg Cæsar

    My cousin married a black guy. Her kids look nothing like her.

    I spent a lot of time with her when I was a kid. We were both only children, so we were both the closest thing that either of us had to a sibling. I’d no sooner copulate with her than I would with my mother.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  93. J.Ross says:
    @Paul Jolliffe

    Out of all the crimes and failures of modern Hollywood, future examiners will especially note that, in a time of constant lip service to the emerging Hispanic market, we walked past the amazing and cinematic adventures of Cortes to make one more Spiderman movie.

  94. Pericles says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    “One morning, after uneasy dreams, Ben Shapiro awoke and found himself still a gigantic vermin.”

  95. Pericles says:
    @The Z Blog

    No group gets more rustled by quantitative approaches than the humanities people.

    “What white voodoo is this?”

  96. @Stan Adams

    My stepfather had no first cousins at all. His father was an only child, and his mother’s only sibling died before he could marry. Inbreeding wasn’t an option!

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
  97. Muggles says:

    I don’t know who HBD Chick is supposed to be or what this article is supposed to say. The words are in English but they make little if any actual sense.

    What is known about the spread of Christianity (Catholic/Orthodox later) is that, according to many authors on the subject, it was mainly women in the Roman Empire who were the primary drivers. As an offshoot of Judaism, Christianity had most of the same doctrines (other than absurd dietary restrictions) but unlike the Jews, the entire family didn’t have to convert. Only the women and children.

    So the males/husbands could continue to be pagans and enjoy the Temple prostitutes, adultery, homosexual practices, etc. But since the children were included, gradually entire families became Christian. There were many advantages for mothers and women in Christianity versus pagan religions.

    As to clans and family structures, Christians were pretty much like the others and blended well with traditional clan based cultures. Still do. Now if someone can translate this article…

  98. @Darryl

    If you consider hockey, Canada IS the most violent country in the Western world!

    And this:

  99. J.Ross says:
    @anon

    Dieter’s a philosophy academic so it is his curse to try to kill history with reasoning.
    Question: why is X like that?
    History guy: because people are &@#%#@&. All of them. We have rules about who to $#@& because before those rules we #[email protected]&ed everyone. Almost all of your ancestors were beaten as children. Not only were the constructors of modernity complete &@#%#@&, but we now see the necessity of such &@#%#@&$, because everything going wrong now comes from misguided attempts to be nice.
    Philosophy guy: Well that’s part of it, but it’s nice to be able to read what people have written down about what they cogitated (in those cases where they have written anything down). Here I have —
    History guy: Lemme see that [throws papers into river].
    Philosophy guy: You [email protected]#%#@$!
    History guy: See?

    • LOL: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  100. @danand

    Cain? Genesis reversed?

    Alberto S. = Abel rots!

  101. @Reg Cæsar

    My mother has two siblings, both of whom had only one child (as did she). My father has one full brother and several half-siblings. I have a first cousin (who I’ve never met) on my father’s side who was born on the exact same day that I was.

    I’ve never had any contact with any of my paternal relatives. I haven’t seen my father in over twenty years.

    My father was born in Minnesota … my mother, in Nevada … and they met in Vermont.

    My mother’s father was born in Kansas … her mother, in Nevada … and they met in California.

    My family got around.

  102. @Herbert West

    Uh. You are aware Saletan is a Jew, right?

    I’ve never cared about his bloodline enough to ask, but have always wondered about his “orientation”. I discount everything Jews say about immigration unless it meets two conditions: it takes our position, and it is of use in some way. Oh, and truth helps, too.

    Saletan is right about cousin marriage. You can’t make the birth defects argument unless you apply it to all women over 40 as well. Inbreeding builds up over many generations. A one-off first-cousin marriage– hell, a one-off sibling marriage– isn’t that big of a threat statistically.

    But there are good social, legal, moral, and religious arguments to discourage it.

  103. Dissident says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    William Saletan demolishes the scientific case against cousin marriage, then comes down strongly for the moral case against it:

    William Saletan? The man who in 2010 argued that buggering Sodomites* be allowed to donate blood? The man who has countenanced even heterosexual buggery[1],[2]; and is just peachy-keen with any number of varieties of sexual degeneracy and libertinism[3]?

    (*GRAPHIC content)

    Now, I have not read the piece by Saletan that you linked-to. Far be it from me to suggest that Saletan’s argument about cousin-marriage be summarily dismissed, a priori, merely on account of his having revealed himself to be a reprehensible, odious character and pernicious influence in other areas. But given what I cite above, do you not find the notion of a moral argument coming from William Saletan to be a bit rich?

    [1] https://slate.com/technology/2010/10/experimentation-orgasms-and-the-rise-of-anal-sex.html
    [2] https://slate.com/technology/2010/10/why-do-women-who-have-anal-sex-get-more-orgasms.html

    [3] ibid., 1 and 2 above

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  104. @anon

    If the Catholic church is opposed to cousin marriage, it sure doesn’t seem to have much effect from Mexico all the way south to Tierra del Fuego.

    It’s possible that the lack of legislation is due to a lack of need for legislation, i.e., nobody was doing it anyway.They were listening to the Church, so the state kept its nose out. Nothing wrong with that.

    Clitoridectomy wasn’t explicitly outlawed anywhere in the Anglosphere until 1985 in the UK, and until 1994 in the US, in Minnesota. It hadn’t been “a thing” until then. Presumably it would have been covered under existing child abuse and mayhem laws. But one culture’s “abuse” is another’s act of love.

    It is illegal to sleep in a bathtub in the City of New York because 125 years ago, people were sleeping in bathtubs. In other words, tenement overcrowding.

  105. @Dissident

    But given what I cite above, do you not find the notion of a moral argument coming from William Saletan to be a bit rich?

    I merely agreed with his assertion that the argument had to be moral, not “scientific”. I never suggested he be the one to make it.

    That’s what the Vatican is for. (Or Peter Singer, if he’s more to your taste.)

    • Replies: @Dissident
  106. Bert says:
    @Sean

    Pretty map to show the reciprocal colonization across the North Channel and Irish Sea, but it leaves out the colonization of the Ulster Plantation by private (not royal) English initiatives and the north English settlers of the royal Plantation.

    From Wikipedia article on the Ulster Plantation. “By 1622, a survey found there were 6,402 British adult males on Plantation lands, of whom 3,100 were English and 3,700 Scottish – indicating a total adult planter population of around 12,000. However another 4,000 Scottish adult males had settled in unplanted Antrim and Down, giving a total settler population of about 19,000.[35]”

    In addition to the Scot and English settlers of Ulster, there was a small but economically important component of Huguenot settlers.

    • Replies: @Sean
  107. @anon

    anon 105 – you’re right of course, as far as the historical roots of Swiss direct democracy in the modern form are concerned.

    I left out the adjective modern when I wrote about Swiss direct democracy. But that was what I meant, of course, and what Houellebecq is writing about: The actual form of Swiss direct democracy, which was shaped and institutionalized 1848 ff.

    The autonomy aspect of Swiss history, as (in an idealized form, which is hailed until this day in Switzerland) shown in Schiller’s play Wilhelm Tell is important for the Swiss mentality until this day – I agree here too. But this preference of autonomy deeply shaped the Reformist movement of Zwingli and Calvin. And this powerful movement then gave a multitude of impulses for the modern-day Swiss democracy with its strong elements of a direct influence of the Swiss voters on all kinds of questions from rail-subsidies to school reforms and military finance etc. pp.

    One of the big stepping stones in establishing a public sphere which enabled the Swiss to install such a powerful role of the voter were the numerous public debates which accompanied the formation of a second Christian church in Switzerland – not least because these debates helped to avoid a civil war in Switzerland over the partition of the church.

    The parallel between direct democracy and Protestantism is pretty obvious: Both strengthen the role of the individual against the institutions.

    • Replies: @Alden
  108. Alden says:
    @Sean

    It was King James 1 of England who sent the border Scot clans to N. Ireland to clear the area of the native Irish so the English planters and merchants could be safe.

    The English sent the Scots from N Ireland to America for the same reason. They were sent to the frontier to fight off the Indians. This made the commercial and plantation coast safe from Indian raiders.

    James 6 of Scotland, 1 of England wasn’t the only heir of Elizabeth 1. When Elizabeth got old, English politicians had discussions with the various heirs as to what benefits the heir would do for England if he or she was made sovereign.

    The Scots border bandits had long made a living by extortion of entire town’s, cattle and sheep rustling, kidnapping for ransom and other criminal activities.

    While Elizabeth was alive James 6 of Scotland promised the English politicians he’d do something about the Scots border bandits if selected King of England. And he did.

    At the time, there was an official Anglican Church of Scotland. It was identical to the Anglican Church of England. But the border bandit clans were a strange sect of Puritans at war with the official Church of Scotland.

    When James became King of both countries he lured the border bandits clans to Ireland with the promise of total religious freedom for their crazy Puritan sect. They had freedom for the years they killed off the native Irish.

    At that point James and the bishops of the official Church of Ireland declared the Scots Puritans heretics and ordered them to conform to the official Church of Ireland. Only ordained priests of the official Church of Ireland, and only CofI services with s music considered sinful by the Puritans

    Some Puritans stayed in Ireland and conformed. The Puritans went off to America.

    The Scots border bandits didn’t migrate naturally to N Ireland. They were enticed by the English on the promise of freedom to practice Puritanism. When they’d killed enough native Irish for the English to settle Ireland, they were deemed heretics and ordered to conform to the official Church. Some did. Some refused.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  109. Dissident says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I merely agreed with his assertion that the argument had to be moral, not “scientific”. I never suggested he be the one to make it.

    I appreciate that and did not mean to suggest otherwise. It’s just that Saletan’s name evokes a visceral reaction in me, associating it as I do with the utterly odious views of his that I cited (and which were, in fact, how I learned of him in the first place.) Such whitewashing and apologetics have been absolutely essential in bringing about the moral inversion we have been witnessing, in which depravity is lauded and decency, virtue and sense condemned.

    That’s what the Vatican is for. (Or Peter Singer, if he’s more to your taste.)

    Hardly the only two choices…

  110. Alden says:
    @Dieter Kief

    The 30 years war came more than a thousand years after the Roman church outlawed first cousin marriage. Most of the destruction was Swedish Lutherans invaders in the Lutheran north east of what’s now Germany,

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Dieter Kief
  111. @J.Ross

    Ok J. Ross – you made me laugh, thanks! Except for that, anon 105 would be perfectly right, if I had meant my remark about Swiss Direct Democracy as a strictly genealogical one. I clearly didn’t though, because Houellebecq’s total embrace of Swiss politics including the Swiss system of border controls, which I explicitly and implicitly referred to, is about nothing else than the actual Swiss political situation.

    (In more detail in my comment No. 115).

  112. Alden says:
    @Dieter Kief

    But as soon as Calvin achieved power in Geneva he went after anyone and everyone who disagreed with him. He came up with endless petty interfering ultra conformists regulations such as forbidding even wedding rings as a sign of vanity, only cold food cooked the day before on Sunday, no traveling but for a short walk on Sunday and a whole crew of enforcers of his regulations Doesn’t sound very Democrat to me.

    Once he achieved his wanna be Jew Puritan paradise it didn’t last long did it? Calvin was similar to Savoronala in Florence. A popular Puritan regime went too far and was overthrown. How many other Puritans did Calvin burn to death for disagreeing with him? Read the Jewish part of the Bible, memorize it rant and rave about the sinfulness of wearing wedding rings, but get imprisoned and maybe burnt to death if your ranting disagreed with Calvin’s.

    Switzerland was always democratic with local self rule long before Calvin, long before Christianity itself. It was impossible to raise cash crops in the mountains. Only subsistence farming was possible. So neither the Roman Empire nor the Austrian Empire was very interested in control as there were no cash crops and little tax money to be had. Switzerland was ignored by the powers of Europe because there were no cash crops or tax money to be had.

    Swiss democracy comes from the Swiss economy which was determined by the Swiss geography. Nothing to do with the short lived Calvin reign in Geneva, in the ethnic linguistic minority French region of Switzerland. Or discussions of the Jewish bible and which Jewish customs to impose either. Calvin and the rest of the Puritans even discussed bans on eating pork.

    There’s a lot of evidence Calvin was a crypto Jew named Cohen. I’m not much for the crypto Jew theory that explains so much, but judging by Calvin’s beliefs and what he did I’m inclined to believe it. His behavior once he achieved control over Geneva wasn’t all that different from what the Bolshevik Jews did once they took control of Russia.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  113. anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alden

    The 30 years war came more than a thousand years after the Roman church outlawed first cousin marriage.

    True.

    Most of the destruction was Swedish Lutherans invaders in the Lutheran north east of what’s now Germany,

    False.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Battles_of_the_Thirty_Years%27_War

  114. @Alden

    The Thirty-Year-war’s root conflict was that between the Catholics and Protestants. Without it, it would not have happened.

    cf. Herfried Münkler – “Der Dreißigjährige Krieg” (2018). Golo Mann, “Wallenstein” (1971), Friedrich Schiller, “Geschichte des Dreißigjährigen Krieges” (1790).

  115. @Alden

    Calvin’s ideas stood the test of time and made him one o the most influential thinkers of all time. Tom Wolfe ranks him amongst the Top Ten.

    (It is almost always the case, that past successes look quite foolish seen from our comfortable position on the shoulders of the giant called history. – But this perspective is deceptive throughout because it makes us look brighter than those before us, simply because we have the benefit of hindsight. – Arno Borst, the definitely insightful historian Arno Borst (read whatever you can from him), used to say in moments, when this fallacy took shape: Just think of the simple truth, that your life you live now will become part of a much much longer afterlife – so our momentary triumphs are necessarily shallow ones. In the long run, history will win – and make us look at least as dumb as our forefathers***).

    ***
    Most, if not all of us, because the benefit of hindsight is out of reach for all of us – as long as we live and therefore we never know how what we propose and do will look in the eyes of those that follow us. (That’s Borst’s secularised version of the biblical we’re all of us sinners in our earthly strivings and therefore needy of redemption).

    • Replies: @Disordered Deek
  116. When a branch of science is taboo …

    … you can see a decade into the future by reading an anonymous blog. You can find out not only the questions that the field will address, but also the answers.

    It is hard to exaggerate the significance of this. Such a situation would be impossible in most branches of science – the mere suggestion would be preposterous.

    And this science really is taboo. It would be a career-limiting move for a university researcher to suggest that there is any difference between people born in different places, or that white people of Western European descent have certain qualities that are not only advantageous, but were vital to the creation of modern civilization.

    No. We got where we are by killing and enslaving people, and taking their stuff. It is racist to suggest otherwise, and the students of color no longer feel comfortable in your presence. You are fired.

  117. @Alden

    George Macdonald Fraser wrote The Candlemass Road about some of these Border Scots. One of the most memorable books I have ever read.

  118. @Redneck farmer

    boo hoo proddy
    but fair enough, the authors of the study apparently make it work by claiming that Spain and Sicily were Moslem too long. and perhaps they include the “reformed” among the descendants of the medieval Church, ergo England counts as Christian for a longer time than Ireland. not to mention, Ireland had a peculiar colony status for a while, and in general all the historical and geographical and racial contingencies that explain why France may have become civilized and more homogeneous earlier than Britain, but Britain by virtue of its geography and mix, with some historical decisions and luck/providence (the Armada episode) thrown in…

    that said, it could be argued that northern Europeans were even more friendly to nuclear families. and at any rate, the study is more focused on the banning of infanticide, pederasty, and incest, which were prevalent in the former lands and peoples inside and outside the Roman borders, before the One True Church of Our Lord ceased to be persecuted. this is what hbd_chick focused on, the medieval united Christendom influence on Europe, rather than the sad devolution post 1519…

  119. @Not Raul

    yes. the stereotype Americans get of “modern Milan vs backwards Catholic Sicily” is a more recent one, the one they saw in The Godfather and later art products from “imports”…

    obviously Northern Italy due to Lombard and then Romano-Austro-Germanic-influence was going to industrialize and (sadly) secularize earlier. but, this region produced in the medieval period more intellectually for Christendom, than the then sadly convulsed Byzantine-Vandal-Arab-Norman period in Southern Italy, which produced more crusaders and martyrs (only relieved, mind you, by the Catholic Spanish house of Aragon coming to rule). Ambrose and Francis were northern, just two examples.

    speaking of the house of Aragon, another problem for the South was that the kingdom of the Two Sicilies, which was affably Catholic and rural, was totally savaged by Garibaldi and his liberal carboneros, as they incorporated Italy by force. the mass exodus from the region portrayed in the Godfather was actually kickstarted by the mass bankruptcies of the peasantry and the ensuing violence caused by the upheaval of the old order; thanks to liberals and finance from Northern European liberal/secular/even Protestant countries. of course, the factories of the North benefitted from the suddenly massive amounts of cheap labor available, as well as the nascent socialist parties… where have I heard this one before…

  120. @Dieter Kief

    thanks to all that individualism worship going on for the last 500 years, we have what we have now… blessed Switzerland holding money for the world’s princes’s sins and usury as they wish…

    but hey, thanks for the steam engine and the Turing machines, you Calvin fanatics… as if they would have not come by virtue of your own race… eventually…

  121. @Jim bob Lassiter

    lest we forget, East Asians who adopted Western mores purposefully did so to compete with the West, and wrapped (Japan, S Korea) and/or destroyed (China, N Korea) their old traditions to stand up to Western imperialism. adopting smaller families without incest or pedophilia was part of it. Chinese, Japanese, Indians and others had indeed gotten some exposure to these Christian values before, even if rejecting them and killing most converts – still, the mustard seed remains…

    of course, what the Alarmist fails to mention, is that the Church made this old weird Hebrew custom a normative divine rule, in an otherwise incredibly grotesque sexual world that was pagan Europe and (much more so) the Middle East. true, the Jews perhaps had these prohibitions on themselves because they are prone to decadence, but perhaps the message of Christ was instead fitting more for Europeans and friendly peoples in general to develop. from there on, to the world – and of course, it’s always struggled. speaking of Asia, consider how lesser is the taboo in Japan against prostitution, and the infamous cultural references of loli hentai and undies vending machines; while on the other hand, the somewhat stoic, somewhat vapid atheist Confucianism of the Chinese, and the soulless eyes-surgery-fied Koreans (or, if you prefer, the weird yet apparently quite visible Christian ones)… idk, but if anything, one has to compare apples to apples, and idk how much incest was there in China or Japan in Marco Polo or Francis Xavier times, when they brought back the inventions that all you materialists love… I’m pretty sure there was more than enough…

  122. @Cpluskx

    fair point. it could be argued that they interbred with people who had good genes already. and that Christianity limited the extent of interbreeding; while distance, geography, and natural sense of ethnos has prevented the Finns from outbreeding… too much. because, lest we forget, there’s those pesky Swede-Finns that are pretty much lording it over the rest with their beautiful Nordic genes…

    so perhaps, rather than inbreeding as you conclude, preventing too much outbreeding can be good at times, if only to provide some defense against invaders. it helps also to have some of the population choosing celibacy and service, by the way, which used to happen a lot in earlier times (Finnmark was born as mission territory), and which helped keep the population growing without mixing too much of the peoples with outsiders.

    can’t forget about the map angle as well… Finland, and the nations of Scandinavia in general, have always been due to their geographies (and perhaps the genes shaped by them) sparsely populated compared to other nations of similar size, thus they’ve perhaps not outbred as much, and perhaps inbred a bit more than other nations. in Finland, which also is pressured by groups of quite rather different ethnicity surrounding her, the imperative is even larger. I imagine they try to set up marriages as far away as possible in the family tree anyway, thus engendering even more high-society and stuff; however still inbreeding on average, because the family trees must cross in some branch in some century somewhere, so as not to cross with Swedes or Rus… too much…

    a case study of an even smaller ethno-nation with relatively high inbreeding (for white Christian levels) could be the Basque people.

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