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From Slate, a very lengthy article by Dahlia Lithwick about how notorious horndog Judge Kozinski, who was uncomfortably oversexed even for Chuck Barris’s proto-reality TV show The Dating Game *, used to be hot for her and how that made her feel:

He Made Us All Victims and Accomplices

For 20 years, I’ve felt it was too early to speak up about Judge Alex Kozinski.

Judge Kozinski was long the youngest and cutest federal appeals court judge.

She, effectively, kept her options open for 20 years about someday becoming, you know, another Mrs. Kozinski.

Now I fear it’s too late.

But now Judge Kozinski’s a creepy 67-year-old.

So Dahlia doesn’t know what she was thinking when she refused to dish on him for all those years.

By Dahlia Lithwick

The first time I met Alex Kozinski was in 1996. I was clerking for the chief judge of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and there was an orientation for new clerks in San Francisco. One of my co-clerks and I were introduced to the already legendary, lifetime-tenured young judge at a reception, and we talked for a while. I cannot recall what we talked about. I remember only feeling quite small and very dirty. Without my prompting, my former co-clerk described this interaction in an email to me this week. “He completely ignored me and appeared to be undressing you with his eyes,” he wrote. “I had never seen anyone ogle another person like that and still have not seen anything like it. Was so uncomfortable to watch, and I wasn’t even the subject of the stare.”

Dahlia wants you to know that this powerful man couldn’t take his eyes off her, while he didn’t bother looking at her friend at all.

The first time I spoke to Judge Kozinski on the phone came weeks later, when I called his chambers late at night. Our judge had a sitting in the same city as Judge Kozinski, and I had made plans with one of Kozinski’s then-clerks, an old college friend, to meet late at night for a drink. When I called his chambers, Judge Kozinski himself answered the phone. I introduced myself and asked to speak to his clerk, explaining that we had plans to meet up. The judge asked where I was. I said I was in my hotel room. Then he said, “What are you wearing?”…

For years, I excused myself because I believed that the casual degradation of women that emanated from Judge Kozinski’s orbit was the death rattle of an old America: a symbol of the sad, broken longing for the world of Mad Men, a world that ended as soon as women reached parity with men in law school.

After all, who is more representative of the Old Dying WASP Protestant Country Club Mad Men America than Judge Kozinski with his Bela Lugosi accent?

If we can’t trust Matthew Weiner’s theories about what the old America was like before he was born, next you’ll be telling us we can’t trust Harvey Weinstein’s Oscar-nominated movies either!

———

* By the way, I wasn’t aware until the Judge Kozinski Imbroglio that The Dating Game recruited so many People With Agents. Bachelors included: Judd Apatow, Bill Bixby, Danny Bonaduce (I knew his extremely respectable brother), David Cassidy, Dick Clark, Richard Dawson, Robin Gibb, Phil Hartman, Ron Howard, Casey Kasem, Andy Kaufman, Paul Lynde, Steve Martin, Michael Richards, Adam West, Tom Selleck, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Michael Jackson.

 
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  1. Tom-in-VA says:
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    • Replies: @sabril
    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    For many women, it must be very disturbing to go from being hit on by handsome federal judges to being sexually invisible in the eyes of high status men.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    As a buddy of mine says, "I wouldn't f**k her with your d**k".
    , @Neoconned
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

    Mexican bombshell Salma Hayek has come out now after all the "braver voices" that she called them have already done the heavy lfiting....talking about how Harvey abused or mistreated her or whatever.

    There's no mention of the fact that even at age 50 she STILL can get ANY man she wants even MUCH younger men or even teenagers if she wanted them.

    Or the fact she's married to somebody slightly above Harvey's lot in life -- a French billionaire who spoils her rotten....

    Like what Steve mentioned in his now infamous post -- or what somebody mentioned a few days after in the comments, I forget:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/salma-hayek-and-a-black-actress-debate-who-deserves-more-intersectional-pokemon-points/

    If all the women coming into the USA looked LIKE THAT:

    https://i0.wp.com/celebrityinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Salma-Hayek-Biography.jpg

    I mean that's HER AT 50ish and she STILL LOOKS THAT GOOD....

    Now imagine if these women came over, single, no kids, no husband attached. And she was a man-hungry husband seeker.

    The only catch -- she had to marry ANY American man within 5 years....so say 50-100 million Latin American women and then say 100 million from Arabic/Islamic nations, India, and east Asia showed up looking to marry or date single or taken American men and they're youngish -- say 18-50 and they want to please their American men....

    Well I mean think about all those women in the dating market who play the field and do the mudshark thing on the downlow before they spread their venereal disease to their white partners and get dumped.....

    Well, all those free dinners, the older guy picking up the tab for your car note or your insurance payments or your mortgage or "help you out with the bills" money....all that goldbricking, gold-digging scheming , racketeering, gaming etc -- goes down the toilet.

    Now there's COMPETITION! As whiskey put it -- Kate Steinle getting wacked was good because hey -- bimbos HATE HATE HATE pretty rivals. What about mudshark fatties who get run over when they swarm some mental case's car and threaten to lynch him and he panics and runs a few over -- oh that's terrorism and sexism, so forth.

    Let's name it after Trump -- look what he did -- married an exotic IMMIGRANT and foreign model....

    Let's do the same -- how would you - single or dumped by your wife and now in your 40s-60s....how would you like say an Indian babe who's 30ish and can't find a husband in India but who looks good in a sarong or whatever they call those things or a big thighed dusky curvy Algerian beauty who otherwise would be wasted in some harem of some 3rd world tribal idiot in North Africa?

    Let's flood the US with single women -- hell pay them dowries....even then it'd be way cheaper than paying for the upkeep of all these insane gold diggers....

    For 20 years ONLY single non-maried women between say 18-50 can immigrate.

    Then what are all the cat ladies in waiting going to do?

    First they'll claim sex trafficking and pimping, blah blah but when they see how happy the women are with their "loser" white or otherwise American husbands and how they can't game the system no more....well, they'll just have to do what the rest of us icky creepy guys do -- go out and get a JOB! And boy would that suck. Let me tell you -- getting up at 4am to scrub toilets at McD's sucks a fat one.

    these women are going to have it rough if we do what we really should do -- which is import brides -- and let our own women humble themselves or they can move to Africa and became sex slaves to some big man or sheikh....and be despised by all his other jealous brides....
    , @Forbes
    Not my idea of ogle material, nor someone to be undressed with the eyes.
    , @Nathan Krumm
    She looks...very smart.
    , @Kylie
    Thanks a lot.
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  2. dr kill says:

    !!Muy Valiente!!

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  3. AndrewR says:

    >thinks an extraordinarily perverted Polish Jew with a thick accent is representative of 1960s era WASP culture

    How did such a thoroughly stupid person attain a federal clerkship? Maybe Kozinski was justified in treating her as nothing more than a sex object.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill
    Stupid? Are you claiming that it is not in Lithwick's interest to say such things?
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  4. sabril says:

    and we talked for a while. I cannot recall what we talked about. I remember only feeling quite small and very dirty.

    I would guess this means “I flirted shamelessly with him because he was handsome and high-status.”

    Seriously, she wasn’t his law clerk so there was literally nothing stopping her from chatting for a minute or two for the sake of politeness and then politely excusing herself, something which happens all the time at these sorts of events and is completely unremarkable. And which is what normally happens if an ordinary 45 year old man tries to strike up a conversation with a 25 year old girl. If she’s even willing to talk to him at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Judge Kozinski used to be the youngest and cutest federal appeals court judge. But now he's a senior citizen, so I'm going to dish on him.
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  5. @sabril

    and we talked for a while. I cannot recall what we talked about. I remember only feeling quite small and very dirty.
     
    I would guess this means "I flirted shamelessly with him because he was handsome and high-status."

    Seriously, she wasn't his law clerk so there was literally nothing stopping her from chatting for a minute or two for the sake of politeness and then politely excusing herself, something which happens all the time at these sorts of events and is completely unremarkable. And which is what normally happens if an ordinary 45 year old man tries to strike up a conversation with a 25 year old girl. If she's even willing to talk to him at all.

    Judge Kozinski used to be the youngest and cutest federal appeals court judge. But now he’s a senior citizen, so I’m going to dish on him.

    Read More
    • Agree: fish, NickG
    • Replies: @candid_observer

    Judge Kozinski used to be the youngest and cutest federal appeals court judge. But now he’s a senior citizen, so I’m going to dish on him.
     
    You forgot to mention:

    And I also get to talk about how hot I was. (Don't let my pictures deceive you! I'm so much hotter than I look!)
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  6. sabril says:
    @Tom-in-VA
    Uh huh.

    http://billmoyers.com/guest/dahlia-lithwick/

    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    For many women, it must be very disturbing to go from being hit on by handsome federal judges to being sexually invisible in the eyes of high status men.

    Read More
    • Agree: CK, Bill
    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    As usual, classic Onion got it right:

    https://www.theonion.com/area-woman-recalls-days-when-she-resented-being-hit-on-1819567478
    , @L Woods
    This is very obviously the case.
    , @fish

    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.
     
    A fair amount!

    Lets not overlook the female need to bond over shared "suffering". After all no woman wants to left out from an event(s) that's creating such public attention!
    , @Corvinus
    "I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more."

    Not that many. Unless, of course, you enjoy calling the homily women in your life as being spiteful when they claim they were groped without permission.
    , @Rod1963
    I'd wager a fair amount is.

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.

    And no sane man is going to date some childless 40 something with a cat collection and a high power corporate job.

    They bought into the lies promoted by Madison Avenue and the Feminazis that they could have it all. Not realizing the Madison Avenue types are just con-artists working for corporate America and the Feminazis simply hate young women.
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  7. … appeared to be undressing you with his eyes, …

    I always wondered how they know that. Do they picture which pieces of clothes I am thinking of taking off, and in what order?

    Women’s intuition – powerful, powerful stuff! (apparently)

    Plus, isn’t this automatic, once you get to puberty?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Achmed, I was wondering where they put the clothes? In a mental hamper? Or just toss them on the floor at your feet.
    , @Mr. Anon

    I always wondered how they know that. Do they picture which pieces of clothes I am thinking of taking off, and in what order?
     
    Maybe Judge Kozinski was staring at Ms. Lithwick because he was mentally dressing her - putting more clothes on her than she was actually wearing.
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  8. JerryC says:

    Paul Lynde, really?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn't taking up much rent-free space in people's heads in 1969.
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  9. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Isn’t it amazing how I just remembered that you sexually assaulted me at the very same time you got old and ugly?

    Variant from The Simpsons, Sherri and Terri to Lisa : isn’t it amazing that we realized we’re friends with you right when you got a swimming pool?

    PS : seriously, who says “what are you wearing?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tom-in-VA
    https://youtu.be/cWXrSivWPqc
    , @Sabril
    Re: what are you wearing

    I would gauge this as a semi-ironic flirt. It's sexual but can be laughed off as a joke.

    Anyway, you can bet that Kozinsky would not have asked that question if he hadn't received some kind of positive response to his earlier flirting.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    PS : seriously, who says “what are you wearing?”

    Howard Stern says that all the time. I wonder if a lot of these sexual harassers were fans back when he was on FM radio and that's where they got their "how to talk sexy to a woman" tips. Stern is a role model of coolness for a lot of Jewish guys.

    In The Journal of Best Practices: A Memoir of Marriage, Asperger Syndrome, and One Man's Quest to Be a Better Husband, David Finch, who has Asperger's, describes trying to learn how to make small talk by listening to the Stern show. This led to awkward moments, like casually asking a coworker, "You got anything going on sexually in your life?"

    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Answer if you want to scare him away: "50 pounds of armour. My friends and I are going to whack each other over the head with rattan broadswords."

    Answer if you want to weird him away: "My 'Hello Kitty' sweatsuit and bunny slippers."

    (I possess none of these garments, BTW.)
    , @Autochthon
    Nah; the "what are you wearing?" is an old chestnut; the classic way to convey ribald or at least romantic interest via telephone because it effectively communicates the speaker had rather see the listener and is interested in visualising her as they speak.

    Does no one else remember the video for Aerosmith's "Sweet Emotion?"
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  10. CK says:

    The Weinstein company is responsible for the movie A Dangerous Mind about the life and times of Chuck Barris. One reprehensible making a movie about another reprehensible.

    Read More
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  11. Pericles says:

    Dahlia Lithwick shows up, a Canadian law-Jew by coincidence once again turning the Law into daytime soap opera.

    Read More
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  12. Pericles says:

    I assume it’s best to preserve the virtue of female clerks to just assign them to clerk under female judges. OH NO THAT WOULD BE HYDROPHOBIC.

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  13. Lithwick’s stuff is stereotypically liberal and second-rate.

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  14. Bill says:
    @AndrewR
    >thinks an extraordinarily perverted Polish Jew with a thick accent is representative of 1960s era WASP culture

    How did such a thoroughly stupid person attain a federal clerkship? Maybe Kozinski was justified in treating her as nothing more than a sex object.

    Stupid? Are you claiming that it is not in Lithwick’s interest to say such things?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Touché. I admit the possibility that she is just feigning stupidity. But I generally assume stupidity before mendacity.
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  15. Lol at Kozinski’s after picture. Looks like Bam Margera’s pervy uncle Don Vito (God rest his soul).

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  16. Tom-in-VA says:
    @Anonymous
    Isn't it amazing how I just remembered that you sexually assaulted me at the very same time you got old and ugly?

    Variant from The Simpsons, Sherri and Terri to Lisa : isn't it amazing that we realized we're friends with you right when you got a swimming pool?

    PS : seriously, who says "what are you wearing?"

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. Sabril says:
    @Anonymous
    Isn't it amazing how I just remembered that you sexually assaulted me at the very same time you got old and ugly?

    Variant from The Simpsons, Sherri and Terri to Lisa : isn't it amazing that we realized we're friends with you right when you got a swimming pool?

    PS : seriously, who says "what are you wearing?"

    Re: what are you wearing

    I would gauge this as a semi-ironic flirt. It’s sexual but can be laughed off as a joke.

    Anyway, you can bet that Kozinsky would not have asked that question if he hadn’t received some kind of positive response to his earlier flirting.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  18. BenKenobi says:
    @sabril
    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    For many women, it must be very disturbing to go from being hit on by handsome federal judges to being sexually invisible in the eyes of high status men.
    Read More
    • Agree: Autochthon
    • LOL: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Dorothy Parker's adulatory biographer wrote that when she was feeling particularly lonely, she'd post the sign MEN on her office door. In truth, though, Miss Parker only floated the idea in a letter to a friend.
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  19. @Anonymous
    Isn't it amazing how I just remembered that you sexually assaulted me at the very same time you got old and ugly?

    Variant from The Simpsons, Sherri and Terri to Lisa : isn't it amazing that we realized we're friends with you right when you got a swimming pool?

    PS : seriously, who says "what are you wearing?"

    PS : seriously, who says “what are you wearing?”

    Howard Stern says that all the time. I wonder if a lot of these sexual harassers were fans back when he was on FM radio and that’s where they got their “how to talk sexy to a woman” tips. Stern is a role model of coolness for a lot of Jewish guys.

    In The Journal of Best Practices: A Memoir of Marriage, Asperger Syndrome, and One Man’s Quest to Be a Better Husband, David Finch, who has Asperger’s, describes trying to learn how to make small talk by listening to the Stern show. This led to awkward moments, like casually asking a coworker, “You got anything going on sexually in your life?”

    Read More
    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    First reference to it I remember was in the movie Sea of Love with Al Pacino (1989). But I've never listened to Stern - maybe he's been saying it his whole career.
    , @Space Ghost
    > “You got anything going on sexually in your life?”


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOqXjK0iKJ8
    , @Reg Cæsar

    casually asking a coworker, “You got anything going on sexually in your life?”
     
    Sounds more like ass-burgers syndrome.
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  20. Tiny Duck says:

    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset – sadly, even among many women – that most don’t even realize when it’s coloring their opinions or emotions.

    Look at how Hillary Clinton’s collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn’t portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects – but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    Read More
    • LOL: TheBoom
    • Troll: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @fish

    Ohs Tinys….whut we say bout girl talk"

    -Lendern "I'll have none of it" Pisstzz
     
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    "Hillary Clinton’s collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn’t portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects"

    THERE IS NO ILLNESS, THERE NEVER WAS!

    She didn't "collapse", just felt a bit faint in the heat and stumbled. STOP REPEATING THE HATEFUL TRUMP NARRATIVE!
    , @Diversity Heretic
    And the fact that she remained at the service despite her illness(es) and collapsed in full view of the assembled multitude and mainstream media, to show her patriotic hardcore stoicism . . . oh, never mind.

    You led with your chin on that one, TD.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    TD, Don't cut and paste. We can simply review your other comments to see this isn't your work. You haven't posted a "refrigerator quality" comment yet. Shame.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset – sadly, even among many women – that most don’t even realize when it’s coloring their opinions or emotions.
     
    Quite true. British suffragettes told their parliamentary friends never to put their cause in jeopardy by allowing women to vote on it. They had been watching the results in the western US, where that tactic bombed.

    Women vote in every state now, abortion is legal, and the ERA failed. We only listened to women for the last one.
    , @MBlanc46
    “Hardcore stoicism of a patriot.” Genius. Sheer genius. You’re wasting your time commenting at iSteve’s, TD. You’ve got to get this material before a live audience. Gold. Pure gold.
    , @Corn
    “Look at how Hillary Clinton’s collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn’t portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects ”

    You, good xir, are comic gold.
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  21. inertial says:

    She never mentions WASP Country Club. You are making it ethnic, not she. In fact, old Mad Men America featured far more men with Bela Lugosi accent, in positions of power or otherwise.

    Read More
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  22. Moldy says:

    Steve Sailer,
    America has silly news. That Broadway actor Miranda wants to be a politician and economist to save his beloved Puerto Rico. Requirements include forgiving $74 billion in debt. He says “creditors should do the right thing and walk away”.
    Only a very special country has Broadway actors proposing policies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Miranda is busy rising above his level of competence. He has delusions of Hamilton-hood, but he isn't Hamilton. He just plays him. By the way, Hamilton didn't want America's Revolutionary war debt excused, but paid off, and what's more, he arranged it. That was why Hamilton was a better economist than Miranda.
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  23. Mr. Anon says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    PS : seriously, who says “what are you wearing?”

    Howard Stern says that all the time. I wonder if a lot of these sexual harassers were fans back when he was on FM radio and that's where they got their "how to talk sexy to a woman" tips. Stern is a role model of coolness for a lot of Jewish guys.

    In The Journal of Best Practices: A Memoir of Marriage, Asperger Syndrome, and One Man's Quest to Be a Better Husband, David Finch, who has Asperger's, describes trying to learn how to make small talk by listening to the Stern show. This led to awkward moments, like casually asking a coworker, "You got anything going on sexually in your life?"

    First reference to it I remember was in the movie Sea of Love with Al Pacino (1989). But I’ve never listened to Stern – maybe he’s been saying it his whole career.

    Read More
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  24. biz says:

    Check it out, they’re coming for Tavis Smiley now.

    But he’s fighting back!

    “It is clear that this has gone too far,” he said. “It’s time for a real conversation in this country about where the lines are, about how men and women can engage each other in the workplace. And I look forward to actively participating in that conversation.”

    “If having a consensual relationship with a colleague years ago is the stuff that leads to this kind of public humiliation and personal destruction, heaven help us.”

    This could be the case that turns the whole thing around. It looks like the main accusations revolve around consensual sex. This time they’re messing with a NAM and he’s not going down without a fight.

    Read More
    • Agree: MBlanc46
    • Replies: @Jack O'Fire
    He may never be on their air again but they'll be paying him, he'll get a handsome award when he wins the defamation/wrongful termination suit.
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  25. Art Deco says:
    @JerryC
    Paul Lynde, really?

    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn’t taking up much rent-free space in people’s heads in 1969.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn’t taking up much rent-free space in people’s heads in 1969.
     
    Are you kidding? A lot of people knew that certain celebrities were "light in the loafers". Maybe you didn't, but other people did. By the time he was a regular on Hollywood Squares, nobody living on the coasts didn't know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. As you say, homosexuality didn't occupy the mental space it does today (how could it have?), but people still knew certain things.

    By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Liberace was gay.
    , @Anonymous
    The retcon aspect of the past century's Gaying Up of Everything is something that originated in grad schools but has had wider impact on society through the screenwriters and homeroom teachers who take cues from people with advanced degrees. By subsidizing the pursuit of master's and doctorates America has become a very misinformed and obsessional country
    , @anonymous
    As a naive kid I suspected that Lynde (and Charles Nelson Reilly for that matter) were faygalas. Both were funny as hell though. I used to watch "The Beverly Hillbillies" and the thought never occurred that Nancy was a lesbo. Now...looking back...well, yeah, I mean it's "obvious"--50+ years later, now that queerness is "where it's at", "in", blah blah blah.

    We're no longer watching the train wreck. We've become the passengers.

    , @Anon
    I don't know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    Maybe one thing we've lost with open homosexuality is the kind of light and childish comedy gay actors are especially good at, but won't do if they can get away with more vulgar humor. Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    At my elementary school in the 90s, we all seemed to watch the show on syndication and Nick at Nite.
    , @MBlanc46
    Except maybe about Liberace.
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  26. Don’t forget about the Dating Game Serial Killer Rodney Alcala!

    Victim count between 8 and 130.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Alcala

    Mexico was not sending us their best game show contestants!

    In March 2010, the Huntington Beach and New York City Police Departments released 120 of Alcala’s photographs and sought the public’s help in identifying them, in the hope of determining if any of the women and children he photographed were additional victims.[9][44] Approximately 900 additional photos could not be made public, police said, because they were too sexually explicit.[29] In the first few weeks, police reported that approximately 21 women had come forward to identify themselves,[45] and “at least six families” said they believed they recognized loved ones who “disappeared years ago and were never found”.[46] None of the photos were unequivocally connected to a missing person case or unsolved murder[36] until 2013 when a family member recognized the photo of Christine Thornton, 28, whose body was found in Wyoming in 1982 (see below).[13]
    As of September 2016, 110 of the original photos remain posted online, and police continue to solicit the public’s help with further identifications.[47]

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cortes
    From the Wikipedia article:

    “After leaving the Army, Alcala graduated from the UCLA School of Fine Arts and later studied film under Roman Polanski at New York University.[9]

    Early criminal history Edit

    Alcala committed his first known crime in 1968: A motorist in Los Angeles called police after watching him lure an eight-year-old girl named Tali Shapiro[20] into his Hollywood apartment. The girl was found alive, raped and beaten with a steel bar, but Alcala had fled.[21] To evade the resulting arrest warrant he left the state and enrolled in the NYU film school, using the name "John Berger".”

    Polanski needs no introduction. John Berger is probably best known for his “Ways of Seeing”. How odd, given Alcala’s photographs.
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  27. Vinay says:

    “She, effectively, kept her options open for 20 years about someday becoming, you know, another Mrs. Kozinski.”

    Steve, you seem to insist on believing that women put up with bad behavior from men in the hope of gaining FAVORS from them and, therefore, are complicit in the bargain. That if they didn’t want extra favor, they’re free to choose not to put up with it.

    Well, maybe some do, but surely that’s not the default. You don’t have to be a woman to realize that other people’s power to harm you vastly outweighs their power to help you. So the most common reason to avoid challenging the powerful is simply to avoid retaliation, in ways big and small. This isn’t limited to women and sexual harrassment, a guy who puts up with insulting nicknames from his boss isn’t doing so hoping for a promotion. Parents avoid pissing off their kids teachers, again, not to curry favor but to avoid making life unpleasant.

    Nobody accuses nerds of putting up with bullies in the hope of gaining special favors. Sexual harassment is different but is it really *that* different?

    Read More
    • Replies: @sabril

    So the most common reason to avoid challenging the powerful is simply to avoid retaliation, in ways big and small
     
    If this were true, there should be lots of credible stories coming out of women who rebuffed the advances of, say, Matt Lauer, and got fired a week later. But that's not what's been happening, which kind of makes sense from the perspective of the man. Retaliation against a woman who turned him down would almost surely generate a complaint against him. The reverse -- doing nice things for women who have relationships with him -- makes the woman an accomplice.

    You don’t have to be a woman to realize that other people’s power to harm you vastly outweighs their power to help you.
     
    I don't think that's necessarily true either. For example, Kozinsky could easily give a big boost to a young lawyer's career. He just needs to pick up the phone and recommend that person to a senior partner at a law firm. Most importantly, in that situation nobody has any incentive to spill the beans. And even if they do, it would not been seen as a terrible thing simply to recommend someone.

    On the other hand, if Kozinsky tries to get someone fired. he's running much more risk. If it came out that he got a young female lawyer fired, difficult questions would be asked about why.
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  28. L Woods says:
    @sabril
    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    For many women, it must be very disturbing to go from being hit on by handsome federal judges to being sexually invisible in the eyes of high status men.

    This is very obviously the case.

    Read More
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  29. fish says:
    @sabril
    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    For many women, it must be very disturbing to go from being hit on by handsome federal judges to being sexually invisible in the eyes of high status men.

    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    A fair amount!

    Lets not overlook the female need to bond over shared “suffering”. After all no woman wants to left out from an event(s) that’s creating such public attention!

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  30. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn't taking up much rent-free space in people's heads in 1969.

    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn’t taking up much rent-free space in people’s heads in 1969.

    Are you kidding? A lot of people knew that certain celebrities were “light in the loafers”. Maybe you didn’t, but other people did. By the time he was a regular on Hollywood Squares, nobody living on the coasts didn’t know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. As you say, homosexuality didn’t occupy the mental space it does today (how could it have?), but people still knew certain things.

    By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Liberace was gay.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Liberace was accused of it in real time. Van Cliburn was not. There's a lesson in their somewhere.

    As for "nobody living on the coasts didn’t know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. ", that has no reality outside your imagination. This casting

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068118/

    post-dated his position on Hollywood Squares by six years.

    , @MBlanc46
    I see that you beat me to it re Liberace.
    , @The Alarmist
    OMG! Liberace was gay? /sarc

    Lynde was an actor who could plausibly, albeit unlikely pull off the role of a hetero. Liberace was in-your-face flaming.
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  31. @Tom-in-VA
    Uh huh.

    http://billmoyers.com/guest/dahlia-lithwick/

    As a buddy of mine says, “I wouldn’t f**k her with your d**k”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MKP
    Hey bruh, are we on?

    I've got $10 on Franken going through with his pledge to quit by March 30. He has to actually leave Capitol Hill and clean out his office by that date. You say he will NOT.

    Deal?
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  32. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco
    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn't taking up much rent-free space in people's heads in 1969.

    The retcon aspect of the past century’s Gaying Up of Everything is something that originated in grad schools but has had wider impact on society through the screenwriters and homeroom teachers who take cues from people with advanced degrees. By subsidizing the pursuit of master’s and doctorates America has become a very misinformed and obsessional country

    Read More
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  33. Benjaminl says:

    Not sure if this has already been linked here — but it’s good:

    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt/

    In recent weeks, I’ve acquired new powers. I have cast my mind over the ways I could use them. I could now, on a whim, destroy the career of an Oxford don who at a drunken Christmas party danced with me, grabbed a handful of my bum, and slurred, “I’ve been dying to do this to Berlinski all term!” That is precisely what happened. I am telling the truth. I will be believed—as I should be.

    But here is the thing. I did not freeze, nor was I terrified. I was amused and flattered and thought little of it. I knew full well he’d been dying to do that. Our tutorials—which took place one-on-one, with no chaperones—were livelier intellectually for that sublimated undercurrent. He was an Oxford don and so had power over me, sensu stricto. I was a 20-year-old undergraduate. But I also had power over him—power sufficient to cause a venerable don to make a perfect fool of himself at a Christmas party. Unsurprisingly, I loved having that power. But now I have too much power. I have the power to destroy someone whose tutorials were invaluable to me and shaped my entire intellectual life much for the better. This is a power I do not want and should not have.

    Over the course of my academic and professional career, many men who in some way held a position of power over me have made lewd jokes in my presence, or reminisced drunkenly of past lovers, or confessed sexual fantasies. They have hugged me, flirted with me, on occasion propositioned me. For the most part, this male attention has amused me and given me reason to look forward to otherwise dreary days at work. I dread the day I lose my power over men, which I have used to coax them to confide to me on the record secrets they would never have vouchsafed to a male journalist. I did not feel “demeaned” by the realization that some men esteemed my cleavage more than my talent; I felt damned lucky to have enough talent to exploit my cleavage.

    But what if I now feel differently? What if—perhaps moved by the testimony of the many women who have come forward in recent weeks—I were to realize that the ambient sexual culture I meekly accepted as “amusing” was in fact repulsive and loathsome? What if I now realize it did me great emotional damage, harm so profound that only now do I recognize it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Interesting article. But after telling women to cool their jets, she manages to says that it's all Trump's fault. Man, that guy is powerful.
    , @El Dato

    But what if I now feel differently? What if—perhaps moved by the testimony of the many women who have come forward in recent weeks—I were to realize that the ambient sexual culture I meekly accepted as “amusing” was in fact repulsive and loathsome? What if I now realize it did me great emotional damage, harm so profound that only now do I recognize it?
     
    It probably means you are in an institution where you are being reprogrammed. Now take your pills and watch this TV.

    Or it's just the inner child...

    "What if I told Mom that you hit me!"

    Women's liberation was a mistake.
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  34. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Diversity never means anything other than Less White People
    When is any country or institution “too black” “too yellow” etc. and needing of “diversity”?
    The self-proclaimed “progressives” demand No White Anything Anywhere

    How is this not Anti White?
    How is this not W- G-?

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    • Replies: @gunner29

    Diversity never means anything other than Less White People
     
    I've been telling other peeps that truth for the last 20 years; living in a left wing hell hole, I don't get many to agree....got eased out of my job when management was tired of paying huge settlements to womyn and feral minorities that didn't have a good job like mine.

    The fact that these womyn and feral minorities didn't have the schooling and experience I had never entered into it....there were more white guys with good jobs than the local population percentage and that was all a lefty court and jury needed to decide in favor of the w and fm...

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  35. Paul Lynde must’ve been hunting for a fag hag to go antiquing with.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Supposedly, his hobbies began and ended with drinking. He went on the wagon before his death, but it was too late by that point. By one account, the pathologist who performed an autopsy on him deemed the condition of his heart comparable to what you'd expect in an octogenarian. Lynde was 55 years old at the time of his death.
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  36. Neoconned says:
    @Tom-in-VA
    Uh huh.

    http://billmoyers.com/guest/dahlia-lithwick/

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

    Mexican bombshell Salma Hayek has come out now after all the “braver voices” that she called them have already done the heavy lfiting….talking about how Harvey abused or mistreated her or whatever.

    There’s no mention of the fact that even at age 50 she STILL can get ANY man she wants even MUCH younger men or even teenagers if she wanted them.

    Or the fact she’s married to somebody slightly above Harvey’s lot in life — a French billionaire who spoils her rotten….

    Like what Steve mentioned in his now infamous post — or what somebody mentioned a few days after in the comments, I forget:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/salma-hayek-and-a-black-actress-debate-who-deserves-more-intersectional-pokemon-points/

    If all the women coming into the USA looked LIKE THAT:

    I mean that’s HER AT 50ish and she STILL LOOKS THAT GOOD….

    Now imagine if these women came over, single, no kids, no husband attached. And she was a man-hungry husband seeker.

    The only catch — she had to marry ANY American man within 5 years….so say 50-100 million Latin American women and then say 100 million from Arabic/Islamic nations, India, and east Asia showed up looking to marry or date single or taken American men and they’re youngish — say 18-50 and they want to please their American men….

    Well I mean think about all those women in the dating market who play the field and do the mudshark thing on the downlow before they spread their venereal disease to their white partners and get dumped…..

    Well, all those free dinners, the older guy picking up the tab for your car note or your insurance payments or your mortgage or “help you out with the bills” money….all that goldbricking, gold-digging scheming , racketeering, gaming etc — goes down the toilet.

    Now there’s COMPETITION! As whiskey put it — Kate Steinle getting wacked was good because hey — bimbos HATE HATE HATE pretty rivals. What about mudshark fatties who get run over when they swarm some mental case’s car and threaten to lynch him and he panics and runs a few over — oh that’s terrorism and sexism, so forth.

    Let’s name it after Trump — look what he did — married an exotic IMMIGRANT and foreign model….

    Let’s do the same — how would you – single or dumped by your wife and now in your 40s-60s….how would you like say an Indian babe who’s 30ish and can’t find a husband in India but who looks good in a sarong or whatever they call those things or a big thighed dusky curvy Algerian beauty who otherwise would be wasted in some harem of some 3rd world tribal idiot in North Africa?

    Let’s flood the US with single women — hell pay them dowries….even then it’d be way cheaper than paying for the upkeep of all these insane gold diggers….

    For 20 years ONLY single non-maried women between say 18-50 can immigrate.

    Then what are all the cat ladies in waiting going to do?

    First they’ll claim sex trafficking and pimping, blah blah but when they see how happy the women are with their “loser” white or otherwise American husbands and how they can’t game the system no more….well, they’ll just have to do what the rest of us icky creepy guys do — go out and get a JOB! And boy would that suck. Let me tell you — getting up at 4am to scrub toilets at McD’s sucks a fat one.

    these women are going to have it rough if we do what we really should do — which is import brides — and let our own women humble themselves or they can move to Africa and became sex slaves to some big man or sheikh….and be despised by all his other jealous brides….

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    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    My ninety-five-pound, twenty-nine-year-old Colombian wife and I agree(d). Ain't nothing wrong with your plan. Like I said around here once earlier: since American wymyn are so damned keen on immivasion, I say we give it to them good and hard.
    , @Corvinus
    Cool story, bro.
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  37. Vinay says:

    Fear and greed are both big motivators of human behavior. However, when it comes to sexual harassment, Steve is dismissive of the fear and chooses to play up the greed.

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  38. @Steve Sailer
    Judge Kozinski used to be the youngest and cutest federal appeals court judge. But now he's a senior citizen, so I'm going to dish on him.

    Judge Kozinski used to be the youngest and cutest federal appeals court judge. But now he’s a senior citizen, so I’m going to dish on him.

    You forgot to mention:

    And I also get to talk about how hot I was. (Don’t let my pictures deceive you! I’m so much hotter than I look!)

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    • Replies: @sabril
    Yeah, I read the article; it's funny how she has to let the reader know that (1) Kozinsky paid attention to her and not her female friend; and (2) even recently, Kozinsky gives her inappropriate kisses on the cheek.
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  39. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco
    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn't taking up much rent-free space in people's heads in 1969.

    As a naive kid I suspected that Lynde (and Charles Nelson Reilly for that matter) were faygalas. Both were funny as hell though. I used to watch “The Beverly Hillbillies” and the thought never occurred that Nancy was a lesbo. Now…looking back…well, yeah, I mean it’s “obvious”–50+ years later, now that queerness is “where it’s at”, “in”, blah blah blah.

    We’re no longer watching the train wreck. We’ve become the passengers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I laughed at Lynde. Never understood the appeal of Reilly, who just seemed to be filler. He once admitted he was on the Tonight Show quite often because he lived within walking distance of the studio and could be more or less on call if a scheduled guest didn't show.

    I recently saw a clip of Reilly, whom I cannot recall seeing perform in 30 years. I'd forgotten how effeminate he was.
    , @Diversity Heretic
    I always remembered Jane Hathaway being rather hot for Jethro Bodine, but I don't plan to watch reruns to see the signs of any lesbianism--was she really making eyes at Ellie May Clampett?
    , @Art Deco
    thought never occurred that Nancy was a lesbo.

    It never occurred to you because she was typecast by that point in her career as a cultural patrician, sometimes a spinster and sometimes a widow. That's a specifically non-sexual sort of role, but the escalating addlement of the culture is such that people insist on reading lesbianism into it, something not done when she was a working actress.
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  40. Robert Wuhl has talked about how Chuck Barris would pay young comedians to be bachelors on The Dating Game. He himself was one of them. If Wuhl is a notable celebrity is an exercise for the reader.

    Wuhl also won $10000 on Pyramid as a contestant. His celebrity partner was Sandy Duncan.

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  41. sabril says:
    @candid_observer

    Judge Kozinski used to be the youngest and cutest federal appeals court judge. But now he’s a senior citizen, so I’m going to dish on him.
     
    You forgot to mention:

    And I also get to talk about how hot I was. (Don't let my pictures deceive you! I'm so much hotter than I look!)

    Yeah, I read the article; it’s funny how she has to let the reader know that (1) Kozinsky paid attention to her and not her female friend; and (2) even recently, Kozinsky gives her inappropriate kisses on the cheek.

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  42. @Harry Baldwin
    PS : seriously, who says “what are you wearing?”

    Howard Stern says that all the time. I wonder if a lot of these sexual harassers were fans back when he was on FM radio and that's where they got their "how to talk sexy to a woman" tips. Stern is a role model of coolness for a lot of Jewish guys.

    In The Journal of Best Practices: A Memoir of Marriage, Asperger Syndrome, and One Man's Quest to Be a Better Husband, David Finch, who has Asperger's, describes trying to learn how to make small talk by listening to the Stern show. This led to awkward moments, like casually asking a coworker, "You got anything going on sexually in your life?"

    > “You got anything going on sexually in your life?”

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  43. songbird says:

    Too bad Richard Dawson died a few years back. He seemed to slobber over every female aged 12-80, and would probably have been an entertaining target.

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  44. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Hautzpah or Chutzeur

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  45. Abe says: • Website

    Maybe I’m pretty guileless, or maybe my dear wife is the most honest woman in the world- probably a combination of both- because it was well past our first decade of marriage before I caught her in an out-and-out lie. But the thing is- the few arguments where I caught her in an outright lie were LESS difficult and LESS mentally-taxing than the standard ones were she would tell me what a sonna-bitch I was being and half my brain was agreeing with her, while the other half was violently contesting with it. No! That’s not how it happened! I mean I was there!… and then, more painstakingly than a NFL ref making a tuck rule call in the playoffs, I had to replay the footage of our argument back in my brain to discover- aha!- here was important evidence in my defense she was leaving out, or here she was purposely putting events out of order, or there she was imputing some negative emotional bias on my part where non existed. And so on and so forth.

    So to get back to the matter at hand-

    One of my co-clerks and I were introduced to the already legendary, lifetime-tenured young judge at a reception, and we talked for a while. I cannot recall what we talked about. I remember only feeling quite small and very dirty.

    Wow, the most evidence-heavy part of your experience with Judge Kozinski- you know, the one where we could establish whether or not you reciprocated and maybe escalated his flirtatious banter- just happens to be the one that no longer exists in your memory banks. Those neurons just happened to discharge on their own, their bio-electric potentialities now mingling in the Chick Aether with the released magnetic spins of Hillary Clinton’s private server hard drives. Ain’t life strange?

    Then he said, “What are you wearing?”

    Right. Out of the blue, just like that. I’m sure you’ve left nothing essential out. I mean the culture back then was so sexist, Judge Kozinski had probably come out of a showing of PRIVATE PARTS that night thinking he could treat all women like Howard Stern, whose crude auto-biography had just been turned into a movie after cishet white male studio boss Sherry Lansing had optioned it for millions of dollars so that cishet white male director Betty Thomas could turn into a celebration of all things white, bro-ish, and misogynistic!

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    As you point out, her selective memory fails her:

    I cannot recall what we talked about. I remember only feeling quite small and very dirty.
     
    But her small and dirty feeling was recently prompted by a male friend:

    Without my prompting, my former co-clerk described this interaction in an email to me this week. “He completely ignored me and appeared to be undressing you with his eyes,” he wrote. “I had never seen anyone ogle another person like that and still have not seen anything like it. Was so uncomfortable to watch, and I wasn’t even the subject of the stare.”
     
    What normal guy remembers said details? (Kosinski ignored him, and was undressing her--sounds gay and envious of the attention.) Having remembered, he found it uncomfortable? And 20 years later, he has never seen anything like it? And yet, still, Lithwick doesn't recall.
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  46. why on earth is this woman going for a late night drink at a colleague’s hotel room? who does that?

    what did she expect would happen? I mean, honestly, what did she expect?

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    what did she expect would happen? I mean, honestly, what did she expect?

    Women have options. Men have obligations. That's what she expects.
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  47. Forbes says:
    @Tom-in-VA
    Uh huh.

    http://billmoyers.com/guest/dahlia-lithwick/

    Not my idea of ogle material, nor someone to be undressed with the eyes.

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    • Replies: @sabril
    25 years and 50 pounds ago she probably would have qualified as "Law School Hot."
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  48. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Anyone wishing to make a crack about Kozinski should remember that out of the 8 active Republican judges on the Ninth Circuit, he was one of the four who voted to uphold the “Muslim Ban” executive order. When the issue hits the Supreme Court, his longstanding influence with Kennedy could be the factor that gives us the win and helps to save us from hundreds of thousands of Muslim migrants and millions of later anchor babies and chain migrants.

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  49. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Much of this might be cases of retconning. Years later these women’s hormone levels have dropped and their attitudes towards sex have changed. What they thought at the time as being fun and flirty they now have retconned into something tawdry. Plus there’s something of an arms race whereby they brag about their groper being higher status than the other women’s gropers. Jose Canseco got some recent publicity for having tweeted that these complainers were ‘racist against ugly men’. That’s observably true (however he chose to express it). Of course there’s the expected uproar and a flood of denial and abuse hurled at him.

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  50. The Dating Game recruited so many People With Agents.

    That holds as well for almost all the classic game shows, especially the ones produced in LA.
    If all you have is a head shot, it helps to let a talent scout see how well you hold up under pressure.

    On the other hand what made The Newlywed Game and The Wheel of Fortune stand out was the relatively down market quality of the contestants.

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  51. Forbes says:
    @Abe
    Maybe I'm pretty guileless, or maybe my dear wife is the most honest woman in the world- probably a combination of both- because it was well past our first decade of marriage before I caught her in an out-and-out lie. But the thing is- the few arguments where I caught her in an outright lie were LESS difficult and LESS mentally-taxing than the standard ones were she would tell me what a sonna-bitch I was being and half my brain was agreeing with her, while the other half was violently contesting with it. No! That's not how it happened! I mean I was there!... and then, more painstakingly than a NFL ref making a tuck rule call in the playoffs, I had to replay the footage of our argument back in my brain to discover- aha!- here was important evidence in my defense she was leaving out, or here she was purposely putting events out of order, or there she was imputing some negative emotional bias on my part where non existed. And so on and so forth.

    So to get back to the matter at hand-


    One of my co-clerks and I were introduced to the already legendary, lifetime-tenured young judge at a reception, and we talked for a while. I cannot recall what we talked about. I remember only feeling quite small and very dirty.
     
    Wow, the most evidence-heavy part of your experience with Judge Kozinski- you know, the one where we could establish whether or not you reciprocated and maybe escalated his flirtatious banter- just happens to be the one that no longer exists in your memory banks. Those neurons just happened to discharge on their own, their bio-electric potentialities now mingling in the Chick Aether with the released magnetic spins of Hillary Clinton's private server hard drives. Ain't life strange?

    Then he said, "What are you wearing?"
     
    Right. Out of the blue, just like that. I'm sure you've left nothing essential out. I mean the culture back then was so sexist, Judge Kozinski had probably come out of a showing of PRIVATE PARTS that night thinking he could treat all women like Howard Stern, whose crude auto-biography had just been turned into a movie after cishet white male studio boss Sherry Lansing had optioned it for millions of dollars so that cishet white male director Betty Thomas could turn into a celebration of all things white, bro-ish, and misogynistic!

    As you point out, her selective memory fails her:

    I cannot recall what we talked about. I remember only feeling quite small and very dirty.

    But her small and dirty feeling was recently prompted by a male friend:

    Without my prompting, my former co-clerk described this interaction in an email to me this week. “He completely ignored me and appeared to be undressing you with his eyes,” he wrote. “I had never seen anyone ogle another person like that and still have not seen anything like it. Was so uncomfortable to watch, and I wasn’t even the subject of the stare.”

    What normal guy remembers said details? (Kosinski ignored him, and was undressing her–sounds gay and envious of the attention.) Having remembered, he found it uncomfortable? And 20 years later, he has never seen anything like it? And yet, still, Lithwick doesn’t recall.

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  52. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco
    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn't taking up much rent-free space in people's heads in 1969.

    I don’t know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    Maybe one thing we’ve lost with open homosexuality is the kind of light and childish comedy gay actors are especially good at, but won’t do if they can get away with more vulgar humor. Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    At my elementary school in the 90s, we all seemed to watch the show on syndication and Nick at Nite.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    He made over 800 appearances on that program over a period of 13 years. I'm sure you can find examples.
    , @Art Deco
    Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    He was a recurring character who only appeared in about 4% of the episodes broadcast.
    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    Classic Paul Lynde,

    What made Paul Lynde such a talented comedian was that he understood heterosexual men and their natural discomfort with homosexuality and was able to poke fun in a way that caught you off guard and put you at ease at the same time.

    But this was all back in the day before in your face Cultural Marxist shaming became the norm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Lynde

    In a 2013 radio interview, Dick Van Dyke recalled the wrap party for Bye Bye Birdie in 1962. A series of men gave short speeches, each one praising Ann-Margret and predicting success and stardom for the young actress. When it was Lynde's turn to speak, he began, "Well, I guess I'm the only one here who doesn’t want to fuck Ann-Margret."[31]

     


    On the May 9, 2016 episode of Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast, Hollywood Squares host Peter Marshall told host Gilbert Gottfried a story that Wally Cox witnessed Lynde in the backstage dressing room for The Golddiggers dance team, and that Lynde said, “This place smells like pussy... I think.”[32]
     
    Paul Lynde - Hollywood Squares
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW7gFLZ7v-c

    What I find enduring about Paul Lynde in that once he deliveries his quip, he really wants to do his best to help the contestant win, he does not just phone it in.
    , @EriK

    I don’t know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.
     
    me too

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYu4AVquItM
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  53. @Anonymous
    Isn't it amazing how I just remembered that you sexually assaulted me at the very same time you got old and ugly?

    Variant from The Simpsons, Sherri and Terri to Lisa : isn't it amazing that we realized we're friends with you right when you got a swimming pool?

    PS : seriously, who says "what are you wearing?"

    Answer if you want to scare him away: “50 pounds of armour. My friends and I are going to whack each other over the head with rattan broadswords.”

    Answer if you want to weird him away: “My ‘Hello Kitty’ sweatsuit and bunny slippers.”

    (I possess none of these garments, BTW.)

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    • Replies: @Anon
    I don't know, 50 pounds of armor sounds pretty hot to me, in at least one sense of the word ... and when one gets out of it one will be in no shape to resist anything.

    But if you have a real suit of armor it seems a waste to beat it out of shape anyway.
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  54. dr kill says:

    What I meant to say is that Dahlia is so attractive, I’m sure her boyfriend is in the FBI. I won’t tell. But I am jealous, those G-Men get all the hotties.

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  55. fish says:
    @Tiny Duck
    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset - sadly, even among many women - that most don't even realize when it's coloring their opinions or emotions.



    Look at how Hillary Clinton's collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn't portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects - but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    Ohs Tinys….whut we say bout girl talk”

    -Lendern “I’ll have none of it” Pisstzz

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    • LOL: Jim Don Bob, Corn
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  56. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Moldy
    Steve Sailer,
    America has silly news. That Broadway actor Miranda wants to be a politician and economist to save his beloved Puerto Rico. Requirements include forgiving $74 billion in debt. He says "creditors should do the right thing and walk away".
    Only a very special country has Broadway actors proposing policies.

    Miranda is busy rising above his level of competence. He has delusions of Hamilton-hood, but he isn’t Hamilton. He just plays him. By the way, Hamilton didn’t want America’s Revolutionary war debt excused, but paid off, and what’s more, he arranged it. That was why Hamilton was a better economist than Miranda.

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  57. Right. Out of the blue, just like that. I’m sure you’ve left nothing essential out. I mean the culture back then was so sexist, Judge Kozinski had probably come out of a showing of PRIVATE PARTS that night thinking he could treat all women like Howard Stern, whose crude auto-biography had just been turned into a movie after cishet white male studio boss Sherry Lansing had optioned it for millions of dollars so that cishet white male director Betty Thomas could turn into a celebration of all things white, bro-ish, and misogynistic!

    I am sorry, but this is the “Fellow White Person” post of the day.

    What remotely red-pilled Alt-Righter can stand to listen to Howard Stern???

    Stern’s whole shtick for 40 years has been was a “Trust me, I’m Jewish” skewering of any goyim stupid enough to appear on his show.

    Stern’s whole career has been about bringing a brutal Talmudic Jewish contempt for the goyim and repackaging it as entertainment for the morons not smart enough to know what is going on.

    Jerry Rude and the Bathroom Bunch

    By the way Sherry Lansing is Jewish as well and made a bundle off of Private Parts. Betty Thomas just served in the needed role as the shabbos Shiksa

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  58. Clyde says:

    “Looking for a lover who won’t blow my cover
    she’s so hard to find”- alleged notorious horndog Judge Kozinski

    Obviously, this so called Dahlia Lithwick reneged. However no potted plants were abused in the making of this micro drama.

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  59. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon

    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn’t taking up much rent-free space in people’s heads in 1969.
     
    Are you kidding? A lot of people knew that certain celebrities were "light in the loafers". Maybe you didn't, but other people did. By the time he was a regular on Hollywood Squares, nobody living on the coasts didn't know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. As you say, homosexuality didn't occupy the mental space it does today (how could it have?), but people still knew certain things.

    By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Liberace was gay.

    Liberace was accused of it in real time. Van Cliburn was not. There’s a lesson in their somewhere.

    As for “nobody living on the coasts didn’t know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. “, that has no reality outside your imagination. This casting

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068118/

    post-dated his position on Hollywood Squares by six years.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    That show lasted all of one season. Maybe that's because people didn't buy the obviously swishy Lynde as a family man.

    A lot of people back then knew what his mannerisms implied. Homosexuality wasn't invented in 1969. There were a lot of celebrities whom people suspected of being homosexual. Even Rock Hudson's name was bandied about as being one in the 70s.

    As for “nobody living on the coasts didn’t know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. “, that has no reality outside your imagination.
     
    You purport to be quite the expert on reality, or what lies in people's imaginations. I have seen no evidence that you are much aquainted with reality, or that you yourself even have any imagination.

    Stick to something your good at - like cataloging file cards, clown.
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  60. I reworked my Roy Moore limerick from a post-victory celebratory deal to a post-loss animadversion on his accusers. And it go a li’l sump’m like dis:

    Roy Moore Post-Election Sling-Blade Attack

    To all my late-seventies ladies
    Who were over the hill by the eighties—
    May you treacherous hoes
    Go where every ho goes:
    Some call it Hell, I call it Hades.

    Here’s Roy’s favorite song:

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  61. Art Deco says:
    @Anon
    I don't know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    Maybe one thing we've lost with open homosexuality is the kind of light and childish comedy gay actors are especially good at, but won't do if they can get away with more vulgar humor. Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    At my elementary school in the 90s, we all seemed to watch the show on syndication and Nick at Nite.

    I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    He made over 800 appearances on that program over a period of 13 years. I’m sure you can find examples.

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  62. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Answer if you want to scare him away: "50 pounds of armour. My friends and I are going to whack each other over the head with rattan broadswords."

    Answer if you want to weird him away: "My 'Hello Kitty' sweatsuit and bunny slippers."

    (I possess none of these garments, BTW.)

    I don’t know, 50 pounds of armor sounds pretty hot to me, in at least one sense of the word … and when one gets out of it one will be in no shape to resist anything.

    But if you have a real suit of armor it seems a waste to beat it out of shape anyway.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Look up Eau de Gambason. It's comparable to a post-game hockey player's aroma.
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  63. Art Deco says:
    @Anon
    I don't know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    Maybe one thing we've lost with open homosexuality is the kind of light and childish comedy gay actors are especially good at, but won't do if they can get away with more vulgar humor. Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    At my elementary school in the 90s, we all seemed to watch the show on syndication and Nick at Nite.

    Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    He was a recurring character who only appeared in about 4% of the episodes broadcast.

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  64. sabril says:
    @Forbes
    Not my idea of ogle material, nor someone to be undressed with the eyes.

    25 years and 50 pounds ago she probably would have qualified as “Law School Hot.”

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    At my directional college, there was a definite relationship between major and attractiveness. The girls who majored in math and science were homely, while the girls who majored in elementary education were like models.
    , @Autochthon
    Make no mistake, there are downright gorgeous women in law schools and as lawyers. The vast majority, though, are gaming for graduate M.R.S. degrees; most wash our of practice once they snag the handsome partner or their own younger man's career takes off and it's time to be a mommy. They may keep a gig as "of counsel" or move to cheesy, easy work like being the head of diversity or business development (where being hot is especially handy; you never saw so many attractive people as there are in variations of sales and recruiting for high-dollar outfits...).

    Don't forget: a huge proportion of hottie news babes and pundits are recovering lawyers.

    A few continue on vamping and slutting it up indefinitely, reveling in the sea of powerful men at their firm, corporation, or governmental agency the way a studly, heterosexual ballerino nailing all the ingenues in his profession might. The most (purely physically) beautiful woman I ever personally knew slept with married guys in the law school for a lark; she dug the challenge or taboo or whatever).
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  65. Corvinus says:
    @sabril
    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    For many women, it must be very disturbing to go from being hit on by handsome federal judges to being sexually invisible in the eyes of high status men.

    “I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.”

    Not that many. Unless, of course, you enjoy calling the homily women in your life as being spiteful when they claim they were groped without permission.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Lithwick had only a brief and undistinguished time in private law practice. She's been an opinion journalist for nearly 20 years, one whose beat includes making the case for progtrash lawfare. When she slices up Kozinski, she's just doing her job.
    , @Anon
    Perhaps you could stand to take remedial English lessons from Tiny Duck ...
    , @sabril
    Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago.

    And it does seem like a lot of the recent accusers are post-wall.
    , @MBlanc46
    “Homily women”? Is that something religious?
    , @Mr. Anon

    Not that many.
     
    Care to offer any evidence for that assertion?

    No, of course not. Without bald assertions, you'd have nothing to say.
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  66. Art Deco says:
    @anonymous
    As a naive kid I suspected that Lynde (and Charles Nelson Reilly for that matter) were faygalas. Both were funny as hell though. I used to watch "The Beverly Hillbillies" and the thought never occurred that Nancy was a lesbo. Now...looking back...well, yeah, I mean it's "obvious"--50+ years later, now that queerness is "where it's at", "in", blah blah blah.

    We're no longer watching the train wreck. We've become the passengers.

    I laughed at Lynde. Never understood the appeal of Reilly, who just seemed to be filler. He once admitted he was on the Tonight Show quite often because he lived within walking distance of the studio and could be more or less on call if a scheduled guest didn’t show.

    I recently saw a clip of Reilly, whom I cannot recall seeing perform in 30 years. I’d forgotten how effeminate he was.

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  67. Art Deco says:
    @dietrich, marlene dietrich
    why on earth is this woman going for a late night drink at a colleague's hotel room? who does that?

    what did she expect would happen? I mean, honestly, what did she expect?

    what did she expect would happen? I mean, honestly, what did she expect?

    Women have options. Men have obligations. That’s what she expects.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    could be more or less on call if a scheduled guest didn’t show.

    I have a vague impression that Christopher Walken might have been the de facto stand-by host of Saturday Night Live during hurricanes and floods. He's a super-professional Old Trouper who can tell jokes, sing, and dance. You can put him up on stage without as much rehearsal as the usual host. But I could be overthinking this pattern that bad weather in NYC = Walken as host.
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  68. I thought the Emmett Till case set a precedent that ogling was not a crime.

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  69. Art Deco says:
    @Bragadocious
    Paul Lynde must've been hunting for a fag hag to go antiquing with.

    Supposedly, his hobbies began and ended with drinking. He went on the wagon before his death, but it was too late by that point. By one account, the pathologist who performed an autopsy on him deemed the condition of his heart comparable to what you’d expect in an octogenarian. Lynde was 55 years old at the time of his death.

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  70. Art Deco says:
    @Corvinus
    "I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more."

    Not that many. Unless, of course, you enjoy calling the homily women in your life as being spiteful when they claim they were groped without permission.

    Lithwick had only a brief and undistinguished time in private law practice. She’s been an opinion journalist for nearly 20 years, one whose beat includes making the case for progtrash lawfare. When she slices up Kozinski, she’s just doing her job.

    Read More
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  71. @Anon
    I don't know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    Maybe one thing we've lost with open homosexuality is the kind of light and childish comedy gay actors are especially good at, but won't do if they can get away with more vulgar humor. Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    At my elementary school in the 90s, we all seemed to watch the show on syndication and Nick at Nite.

    Classic Paul Lynde,

    What made Paul Lynde such a talented comedian was that he understood heterosexual men and their natural discomfort with homosexuality and was able to poke fun in a way that caught you off guard and put you at ease at the same time.

    But this was all back in the day before in your face Cultural Marxist shaming became the norm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Lynde

    In a 2013 radio interview, Dick Van Dyke recalled the wrap party for Bye Bye Birdie in 1962. A series of men gave short speeches, each one praising Ann-Margret and predicting success and stardom for the young actress. When it was Lynde’s turn to speak, he began, “Well, I guess I’m the only one here who doesn’t want to fuck Ann-Margret.”[31]

    On the May 9, 2016 episode of Gilbert Gottfried’s Amazing Colossal Podcast, Hollywood Squares host Peter Marshall told host Gilbert Gottfried a story that Wally Cox witnessed Lynde in the backstage dressing room for The Golddiggers dance team, and that Lynde said, “This place smells like pussy… I think.”[32]

    Paul Lynde – Hollywood Squares

    What I find enduring about Paul Lynde in that once he deliveries his quip, he really wants to do his best to help the contestant win, he does not just phone it in.

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    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    I don't think I ever watched that show... Maybe a minute or two here and there... But boy, that Paul Lynde was one serious flamer. I doubt I would have picked up on that angle in my childhood, but he's up there with Liberace and Rupaul.
    , @Art Deco
    What made Paul Lynde such a talented comedian was that he understood heterosexual men and their natural discomfort with homosexuality and was able to poke fun in a way that caught you off guard and put you at ease at the same time.

    I think you'd have to scrounge to find examples of that in his public performances. You'll notice that both examples you make use of are off stage.
    , @ScarletNumber

    This place smells like p----… I think.
     
    In the version I heard, Paul used the C word rather than the P word.
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  72. @Tiny Duck
    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset - sadly, even among many women - that most don't even realize when it's coloring their opinions or emotions.



    Look at how Hillary Clinton's collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn't portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects - but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    “Hillary Clinton’s collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn’t portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects”

    THERE IS NO ILLNESS, THERE NEVER WAS!

    She didn’t “collapse”, just felt a bit faint in the heat and stumbled. STOP REPEATING THE HATEFUL TRUMP NARRATIVE!

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  73. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    "I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more."

    Not that many. Unless, of course, you enjoy calling the homily women in your life as being spiteful when they claim they were groped without permission.

    Perhaps you could stand to take remedial English lessons from Tiny Duck …

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  74. @Tiny Duck
    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset - sadly, even among many women - that most don't even realize when it's coloring their opinions or emotions.



    Look at how Hillary Clinton's collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn't portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects - but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    And the fact that she remained at the service despite her illness(es) and collapsed in full view of the assembled multitude and mainstream media, to show her patriotic hardcore stoicism . . . oh, never mind.

    You led with your chin on that one, TD.

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  75. @anonymous
    As a naive kid I suspected that Lynde (and Charles Nelson Reilly for that matter) were faygalas. Both were funny as hell though. I used to watch "The Beverly Hillbillies" and the thought never occurred that Nancy was a lesbo. Now...looking back...well, yeah, I mean it's "obvious"--50+ years later, now that queerness is "where it's at", "in", blah blah blah.

    We're no longer watching the train wreck. We've become the passengers.

    I always remembered Jane Hathaway being rather hot for Jethro Bodine, but I don’t plan to watch reruns to see the signs of any lesbianism–was she really making eyes at Ellie May Clampett?

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  76. whorefinder says: • Website

    * By the way, I wasn’t aware until the Judge Kozinski Imbroglio that The Dating Game recruited so many People With Agents. Bachelors included: Judd Apatow, Bill Bixby, Danny Bonaduce (I knew his extremely respectable brother), David Cassidy, Dick Clark, Richard Dawson, Robin Gibb, Phil Hartman, Ron Howard, Casey Kasem, Andy Kaufman, Paul Lynde, Steve Martin, Michael Richards, Adam West, Tom Selleck, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Michael Jackson.

    More than a few years ago the clip of Arnold Schwartzenegger on The Dating Game ( or one of its clones) got onto YouTube and I realized that the show was really a work–a way that underemployed actors/yahoos/camera hogs could make a buck and get some exposure by making up stories about pretend dates they went on, or saying outrageous things, or (if the date was filmed) doing outrageous things for the sake of the camera.

    I realized this because Arnold so successfully mirco-managed his career that there is no way he would have gone onto the show on a lark or just for exposure; he went on to prove he could be personable and funny and tell a good story, all to enhance his acting career. If you doubt Arnold’s micro-managing, ask yourself how a bodybuilder with a bad foreign accent ended up the biggest action star in the world for about a decade and governor of California.

    Since then, I’ve found lots of confirmation of this truth about game shows/dating shows. Most of the “outrageous stories” on such shows is entirely too well-told to be either accurate or not rehearsed. Heck, often times dating shows will have “celebrity week” where pro wrestlers and c-level celebrities are the daters or contestants. Total works. Chuck Berris was a carny at heart.

    Dating shows / game shows were the original “reality shows”, with all the fake “reality” situations that came about. Recall that the quiz show scandal involving the game show Twenty-One occurred in 1956. The now-forgotten contemporary hit game show Dotto was also part of the quiz show scandals; it was proven fixed in 1958. TV shows were always fake, even the game shows.

    Old game shows/dating shows made ratings the same way reality shows do today: fooling the audience into thinking that everything they saw were non-actors spontaneously doing things of their own free will, instead of producer-coached unknown actors and wannabes doing what they were told. Ratings are far too important to be left up in the air.

    Read More
    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    BTW, I don't know if this is news to anyone, but shows like Judge Judy use actors. They even advertise for them in the trade papers.
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  77. sabril says:
    @Vinay
    “She, effectively, kept her options open for 20 years about someday becoming, you know, another Mrs. Kozinski.”

    Steve, you seem to insist on believing that women put up with bad behavior from men in the hope of gaining FAVORS from them and, therefore, are complicit in the bargain. That if they didn’t want extra favor, they’re free to choose not to put up with it.

    Well, maybe some do, but surely that’s not the default. You don’t have to be a woman to realize that other people’s power to harm you vastly outweighs their power to help you. So the most common reason to avoid challenging the powerful is simply to avoid retaliation, in ways big and small. This isn’t limited to women and sexual harrassment, a guy who puts up with insulting nicknames from his boss isn’t doing so hoping for a promotion. Parents avoid pissing off their kids teachers, again, not to curry favor but to avoid making life unpleasant.

    Nobody accuses nerds of putting up with bullies in the hope of gaining special favors. Sexual harassment is different but is it really *that* different?

    So the most common reason to avoid challenging the powerful is simply to avoid retaliation, in ways big and small

    If this were true, there should be lots of credible stories coming out of women who rebuffed the advances of, say, Matt Lauer, and got fired a week later. But that’s not what’s been happening, which kind of makes sense from the perspective of the man. Retaliation against a woman who turned him down would almost surely generate a complaint against him. The reverse — doing nice things for women who have relationships with him — makes the woman an accomplice.

    You don’t have to be a woman to realize that other people’s power to harm you vastly outweighs their power to help you.

    I don’t think that’s necessarily true either. For example, Kozinsky could easily give a big boost to a young lawyer’s career. He just needs to pick up the phone and recommend that person to a senior partner at a law firm. Most importantly, in that situation nobody has any incentive to spill the beans. And even if they do, it would not been seen as a terrible thing simply to recommend someone.

    On the other hand, if Kozinsky tries to get someone fired. he’s running much more risk. If it came out that he got a young female lawyer fired, difficult questions would be asked about why.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vinay
    You make good points. However, there’s lots more ways to retaliate short of firing people. You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.

    Hoping to be treated fairly is not the same as hoping for a special favor. Steve’s “Mrs Kozinski” quip basically paints suggests an expectation of a HUGE favor. That simply isn’t true for all the other abuse people put up with in their daily lives.
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  78. sabril says:
    @Corvinus
    "I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more."

    Not that many. Unless, of course, you enjoy calling the homily women in your life as being spiteful when they claim they were groped without permission.

    Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago.

    And it does seem like a lot of the recent accusers are post-wall.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago."

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.

    "And it does seem like a lot of the recent accusers are post-wall."

    "Post-wall" is not observably a exclusive female thing. The painful truth is that there are men and women who lose their sex appeal, either due to genetics (i.e. not growing old gracefully) or a hard lifestyle that caught up to them, or simply because they choose to "let themselves go". In the end, the "wall" is individualized and subjective for men and women. The general age for either sex to hit this "wall" is dependent on a large combination of factors. Of course, those who subscribe to Manospherist theory insist that only women are subject to its horrors, but in reality men are also hit hard.

    Chronic user of drugs and/or alcohol and/or tobacco, heavy consumption of empty calories, consistent lack of exercise leading to obesity, obsession with career, perpetual chaser of skirts with outright refusal to settle down, the unrealistic dating checklist that continues to expand...all are accelerants for men and women to not be their optimal self, even if they are in their "prime years" (e.g. in their 20's).
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  79. @anonymous-antimarxist
    Classic Paul Lynde,

    What made Paul Lynde such a talented comedian was that he understood heterosexual men and their natural discomfort with homosexuality and was able to poke fun in a way that caught you off guard and put you at ease at the same time.

    But this was all back in the day before in your face Cultural Marxist shaming became the norm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Lynde

    In a 2013 radio interview, Dick Van Dyke recalled the wrap party for Bye Bye Birdie in 1962. A series of men gave short speeches, each one praising Ann-Margret and predicting success and stardom for the young actress. When it was Lynde's turn to speak, he began, "Well, I guess I'm the only one here who doesn’t want to fuck Ann-Margret."[31]

     


    On the May 9, 2016 episode of Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast, Hollywood Squares host Peter Marshall told host Gilbert Gottfried a story that Wally Cox witnessed Lynde in the backstage dressing room for The Golddiggers dance team, and that Lynde said, “This place smells like pussy... I think.”[32]
     
    Paul Lynde - Hollywood Squares
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW7gFLZ7v-c

    What I find enduring about Paul Lynde in that once he deliveries his quip, he really wants to do his best to help the contestant win, he does not just phone it in.

    I don’t think I ever watched that show… Maybe a minute or two here and there… But boy, that Paul Lynde was one serious flamer. I doubt I would have picked up on that angle in my childhood, but he’s up there with Liberace and Rupaul.

    Read More
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  80. Art Deco says:
    @anonymous-antimarxist
    Classic Paul Lynde,

    What made Paul Lynde such a talented comedian was that he understood heterosexual men and their natural discomfort with homosexuality and was able to poke fun in a way that caught you off guard and put you at ease at the same time.

    But this was all back in the day before in your face Cultural Marxist shaming became the norm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Lynde

    In a 2013 radio interview, Dick Van Dyke recalled the wrap party for Bye Bye Birdie in 1962. A series of men gave short speeches, each one praising Ann-Margret and predicting success and stardom for the young actress. When it was Lynde's turn to speak, he began, "Well, I guess I'm the only one here who doesn’t want to fuck Ann-Margret."[31]

     


    On the May 9, 2016 episode of Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast, Hollywood Squares host Peter Marshall told host Gilbert Gottfried a story that Wally Cox witnessed Lynde in the backstage dressing room for The Golddiggers dance team, and that Lynde said, “This place smells like pussy... I think.”[32]
     
    Paul Lynde - Hollywood Squares
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW7gFLZ7v-c

    What I find enduring about Paul Lynde in that once he deliveries his quip, he really wants to do his best to help the contestant win, he does not just phone it in.

    What made Paul Lynde such a talented comedian was that he understood heterosexual men and their natural discomfort with homosexuality and was able to poke fun in a way that caught you off guard and put you at ease at the same time.

    I think you’d have to scrounge to find examples of that in his public performances. You’ll notice that both examples you make use of are off stage.

    Read More
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  81. @Achmed E. Newman

    ... appeared to be undressing you with his eyes, ...
     
    I always wondered how they know that. Do they picture which pieces of clothes I am thinking of taking off, and in what order?

    Women's intuition - powerful, powerful stuff! (apparently)

    Plus, isn't this automatic, once you get to puberty?

    Achmed, I was wondering where they put the clothes? In a mental hamper? Or just toss them on the floor at your feet.

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  82. @Tiny Duck
    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset - sadly, even among many women - that most don't even realize when it's coloring their opinions or emotions.



    Look at how Hillary Clinton's collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn't portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects - but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    TD, Don’t cut and paste. We can simply review your other comments to see this isn’t your work. You haven’t posted a “refrigerator quality” comment yet. Shame.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clyde
    Obvious cut n paste is what came to my mind too. Not one of that quack's finest moments.
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  83. MKP says:
    @Jim Don Bob
    As a buddy of mine says, "I wouldn't f**k her with your d**k".

    Hey bruh, are we on?

    I’ve got $10 on Franken going through with his pledge to quit by March 30. He has to actually leave Capitol Hill and clean out his office by that date. You say he will NOT.

    Deal?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    We have a deal if we agree that the winner gives the $10 to Steve.
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  84. So, I’m thinking out of all the male entertainers, maybe Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles get a pass on the “undress you with their eyes”, but do they get a pass if they just gave you a check-you-out pat down?

    Read More
    • Replies: @oddsbodkins
    If you want to be a Raelette, you have to let Ray...
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  85. @whorefinder

    * By the way, I wasn’t aware until the Judge Kozinski Imbroglio that The Dating Game recruited so many People With Agents. Bachelors included: Judd Apatow, Bill Bixby, Danny Bonaduce (I knew his extremely respectable brother), David Cassidy, Dick Clark, Richard Dawson, Robin Gibb, Phil Hartman, Ron Howard, Casey Kasem, Andy Kaufman, Paul Lynde, Steve Martin, Michael Richards, Adam West, Tom Selleck, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Michael Jackson.
     
    More than a few years ago the clip of Arnold Schwartzenegger on The Dating Game ( or one of its clones) got onto YouTube and I realized that the show was really a work--a way that underemployed actors/yahoos/camera hogs could make a buck and get some exposure by making up stories about pretend dates they went on, or saying outrageous things, or (if the date was filmed) doing outrageous things for the sake of the camera.

    I realized this because Arnold so successfully mirco-managed his career that there is no way he would have gone onto the show on a lark or just for exposure; he went on to prove he could be personable and funny and tell a good story, all to enhance his acting career. If you doubt Arnold's micro-managing, ask yourself how a bodybuilder with a bad foreign accent ended up the biggest action star in the world for about a decade and governor of California.

    Since then, I've found lots of confirmation of this truth about game shows/dating shows. Most of the "outrageous stories" on such shows is entirely too well-told to be either accurate or not rehearsed. Heck, often times dating shows will have "celebrity week" where pro wrestlers and c-level celebrities are the daters or contestants. Total works. Chuck Berris was a carny at heart.

    Dating shows / game shows were the original "reality shows", with all the fake "reality" situations that came about. Recall that the quiz show scandal involving the game show Twenty-One occurred in 1956. The now-forgotten contemporary hit game show Dotto was also part of the quiz show scandals; it was proven fixed in 1958. TV shows were always fake, even the game shows.

    Old game shows/dating shows made ratings the same way reality shows do today: fooling the audience into thinking that everything they saw were non-actors spontaneously doing things of their own free will, instead of producer-coached unknown actors and wannabes doing what they were told. Ratings are far too important to be left up in the air.

    BTW, I don’t know if this is news to anyone, but shows like Judge Judy use actors. They even advertise for them in the trade papers.

    Read More
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  86. SEATAF says:

    The suggestion is that Lithwick, as a 20-something in a career-crucial clerkship, stayed quiet about her pervy 47-year-old boss because she was carrying a marriage torch for him? Okay…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sabril
    Actually Kozinsky was never her boss. She clerked for a different judge.

    And 20 years ago, Kozinsky was sufficiently attractive and accomplished that he could have gotten a 25 year old no problem.
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  87. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    There is an easy way to end this sexual harassment problem.

    The Magic Shirt theory inspired by Magic Dirt theory.

    Do a survey of men and see what kinds of shirts they wear.

    Check the shirts of men who’ve never been accused of rape or sexual improprieties and check the shirts of men who’ve been charged of sexual abuse.

    And then, make the men who’ve been accused to wear the kind of shirts favored by men who’ve kept their hands to themselves.
    And magic skirt will work even better. Study the kinds of skirts worn by women who’ve been left alone and the kinds of skirts worn by women who’ve been harassed. Have the latter wear the skirts of the former.

    If Magic Dirt is true, then so must Magic Shirt be true.

    After all, when the Brits went to India, they suddenly began to dress and act like Hindus since they were standing on Hindu dirt. And Anglos, upon arriving in Australia, began to act like Aborigines since their feet were suddenly on Aboriginal dirt.
    And Pilgrims who set foot on Indian dirt suddenly began to wear feathers and act like Indians with bows and arrows. Blood is soil. Change the soil, blood changes too.

    Read More
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  88. @Buffalo Joe
    So, I'm thinking out of all the male entertainers, maybe Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles get a pass on the "undress you with their eyes", but do they get a pass if they just gave you a check-you-out pat down?

    If you want to be a Raelette, you have to let Ray…

    Read More
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  89. Rod1963 says:
    @sabril
    I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more.

    For many women, it must be very disturbing to go from being hit on by handsome federal judges to being sexually invisible in the eyes of high status men.

    I’d wager a fair amount is.

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.

    And no sane man is going to date some childless 40 something with a cat collection and a high power corporate job.

    They bought into the lies promoted by Madison Avenue and the Feminazis that they could have it all. Not realizing the Madison Avenue types are just con-artists working for corporate America and the Feminazis simply hate young women.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CJ

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.
     
    Lithwick describes herself as married, although I don't know to what. But what you say is so true of so many. As a friend of mine puts it, "No guy is good enough ... no guy is good enough ... no guy is good enough ... no guy."
    , @Sabril
    Actually the woman who wrote the article is married. But I doubt her husband ever was anywhere near as desirable as Kozinsky was in his prime.

    I think that even among women who avoid the cat route, it's still pretty difficult to deal with the massive loss in sexual market value.
    , @L Woods
    This is a manosphere fantasy. These women that whored around in their 20s and 30s chasing chads and oligarchs? Yeah, they end up just fine. Married to some provider sap whom they treat with utmost disrespect, if not outright infidelity. There's no just comeuppance. They do better than most of us ever will.
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  90. EriK says:
    @Anon
    I don't know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    Maybe one thing we've lost with open homosexuality is the kind of light and childish comedy gay actors are especially good at, but won't do if they can get away with more vulgar humor. Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was probably the funniest supporting actor of the entire 1960s.

    At my elementary school in the 90s, we all seemed to watch the show on syndication and Nick at Nite.

    I don’t know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.

    me too

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    You didn't remember those. You just "imagined" them. Art Deco knows better than you do what you do and do not remember.
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  91. I like Kozinski. I saw him speak in London, he was one of the least-scumbaggy US lawyers I’ve seen speak, and I’ve seen quite a few. I feel a bit sad for him, he appears to be being brought down by lechery that is nowhere close to Weinstein level.

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  92. Vinay says:
    @sabril

    So the most common reason to avoid challenging the powerful is simply to avoid retaliation, in ways big and small
     
    If this were true, there should be lots of credible stories coming out of women who rebuffed the advances of, say, Matt Lauer, and got fired a week later. But that's not what's been happening, which kind of makes sense from the perspective of the man. Retaliation against a woman who turned him down would almost surely generate a complaint against him. The reverse -- doing nice things for women who have relationships with him -- makes the woman an accomplice.

    You don’t have to be a woman to realize that other people’s power to harm you vastly outweighs their power to help you.
     
    I don't think that's necessarily true either. For example, Kozinsky could easily give a big boost to a young lawyer's career. He just needs to pick up the phone and recommend that person to a senior partner at a law firm. Most importantly, in that situation nobody has any incentive to spill the beans. And even if they do, it would not been seen as a terrible thing simply to recommend someone.

    On the other hand, if Kozinsky tries to get someone fired. he's running much more risk. If it came out that he got a young female lawyer fired, difficult questions would be asked about why.

    You make good points. However, there’s lots more ways to retaliate short of firing people. You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.

    Hoping to be treated fairly is not the same as hoping for a special favor. Steve’s “Mrs Kozinski” quip basically paints suggests an expectation of a HUGE favor. That simply isn’t true for all the other abuse people put up with in their daily lives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Skinny Hoops

    You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.
     
    Some women initiate sex with married male bosses. It's often a shortcut to career advancement. Other women hate the both of them. Of this I'm 100% sure.
    , @sabril

    You make good points. However, there’s lots more ways to retaliate short of firing people. You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.
     
    And there are few if any stories of that either. Except that in a general sense, most womens' years of effort come to nought (outside of marrying and having children and/or getting a boost from a male patron).
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  93. @anonymous-antimarxist
    Classic Paul Lynde,

    What made Paul Lynde such a talented comedian was that he understood heterosexual men and their natural discomfort with homosexuality and was able to poke fun in a way that caught you off guard and put you at ease at the same time.

    But this was all back in the day before in your face Cultural Marxist shaming became the norm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Lynde

    In a 2013 radio interview, Dick Van Dyke recalled the wrap party for Bye Bye Birdie in 1962. A series of men gave short speeches, each one praising Ann-Margret and predicting success and stardom for the young actress. When it was Lynde's turn to speak, he began, "Well, I guess I'm the only one here who doesn’t want to fuck Ann-Margret."[31]

     


    On the May 9, 2016 episode of Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast, Hollywood Squares host Peter Marshall told host Gilbert Gottfried a story that Wally Cox witnessed Lynde in the backstage dressing room for The Golddiggers dance team, and that Lynde said, “This place smells like pussy... I think.”[32]
     
    Paul Lynde - Hollywood Squares
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW7gFLZ7v-c

    What I find enduring about Paul Lynde in that once he deliveries his quip, he really wants to do his best to help the contestant win, he does not just phone it in.

    This place smells like p—-… I think.

    In the version I heard, Paul used the C word rather than the P word.

    Read More
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  94. Art Deco says:
    @anonymous
    As a naive kid I suspected that Lynde (and Charles Nelson Reilly for that matter) were faygalas. Both were funny as hell though. I used to watch "The Beverly Hillbillies" and the thought never occurred that Nancy was a lesbo. Now...looking back...well, yeah, I mean it's "obvious"--50+ years later, now that queerness is "where it's at", "in", blah blah blah.

    We're no longer watching the train wreck. We've become the passengers.

    thought never occurred that Nancy was a lesbo.

    It never occurred to you because she was typecast by that point in her career as a cultural patrician, sometimes a spinster and sometimes a widow. That’s a specifically non-sexual sort of role, but the escalating addlement of the culture is such that people insist on reading lesbianism into it, something not done when she was a working actress.

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  95. @sabril
    25 years and 50 pounds ago she probably would have qualified as "Law School Hot."

    At my directional college, there was a definite relationship between major and attractiveness. The girls who majored in math and science were homely, while the girls who majored in elementary education were like models.

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  96. @MKP
    Hey bruh, are we on?

    I've got $10 on Franken going through with his pledge to quit by March 30. He has to actually leave Capitol Hill and clean out his office by that date. You say he will NOT.

    Deal?

    We have a deal if we agree that the winner gives the $10 to Steve.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MKP
    Done. Good luck to you, sir.
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  97. @Tom-in-VA
    Uh huh.

    http://billmoyers.com/guest/dahlia-lithwick/

    She looks…very smart.

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  98. @Benjaminl
    Not sure if this has already been linked here -- but it's good:

    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt/

    In recent weeks, I’ve acquired new powers. I have cast my mind over the ways I could use them. I could now, on a whim, destroy the career of an Oxford don who at a drunken Christmas party danced with me, grabbed a handful of my bum, and slurred, “I’ve been dying to do this to Berlinski all term!” That is precisely what happened. I am telling the truth. I will be believed—as I should be.

    But here is the thing. I did not freeze, nor was I terrified. I was amused and flattered and thought little of it. I knew full well he’d been dying to do that. Our tutorials—which took place one-on-one, with no chaperones—were livelier intellectually for that sublimated undercurrent. He was an Oxford don and so had power over me, sensu stricto. I was a 20-year-old undergraduate. But I also had power over him—power sufficient to cause a venerable don to make a perfect fool of himself at a Christmas party. Unsurprisingly, I loved having that power. But now I have too much power. I have the power to destroy someone whose tutorials were invaluable to me and shaped my entire intellectual life much for the better. This is a power I do not want and should not have.

    Over the course of my academic and professional career, many men who in some way held a position of power over me have made lewd jokes in my presence, or reminisced drunkenly of past lovers, or confessed sexual fantasies. They have hugged me, flirted with me, on occasion propositioned me. For the most part, this male attention has amused me and given me reason to look forward to otherwise dreary days at work. I dread the day I lose my power over men, which I have used to coax them to confide to me on the record secrets they would never have vouchsafed to a male journalist. I did not feel “demeaned” by the realization that some men esteemed my cleavage more than my talent; I felt damned lucky to have enough talent to exploit my cleavage.

    But what if I now feel differently? What if—perhaps moved by the testimony of the many women who have come forward in recent weeks—I were to realize that the ambient sexual culture I meekly accepted as “amusing” was in fact repulsive and loathsome? What if I now realize it did me great emotional damage, harm so profound that only now do I recognize it?
     

    Interesting article. But after telling women to cool their jets, she manages to says that it’s all Trump’s fault. Man, that guy is powerful.

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  99. gunner29 says:
    @anonymous
    Diversity never means anything other than Less White People
    When is any country or institution “too black” “too yellow” etc. and needing of “diversity”?
    The self-proclaimed "progressives" demand No White Anything Anywhere

    How is this not Anti White?
    How is this not W- G-?

    Diversity never means anything other than Less White People

    I’ve been telling other peeps that truth for the last 20 years; living in a left wing hell hole, I don’t get many to agree….got eased out of my job when management was tired of paying huge settlements to womyn and feral minorities that didn’t have a good job like mine.

    The fact that these womyn and feral minorities didn’t have the schooling and experience I had never entered into it….there were more white guys with good jobs than the local population percentage and that was all a lefty court and jury needed to decide in favor of the w and fm…

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  100. @Art Deco
    what did she expect would happen? I mean, honestly, what did she expect?

    Women have options. Men have obligations. That's what she expects.

    could be more or less on call if a scheduled guest didn’t show.

    I have a vague impression that Christopher Walken might have been the de facto stand-by host of Saturday Night Live during hurricanes and floods. He’s a super-professional Old Trouper who can tell jokes, sing, and dance. You can put him up on stage without as much rehearsal as the usual host. But I could be overthinking this pattern that bad weather in NYC = Walken as host.

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  101. El Dato says:
    @Benjaminl
    Not sure if this has already been linked here -- but it's good:

    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt/

    In recent weeks, I’ve acquired new powers. I have cast my mind over the ways I could use them. I could now, on a whim, destroy the career of an Oxford don who at a drunken Christmas party danced with me, grabbed a handful of my bum, and slurred, “I’ve been dying to do this to Berlinski all term!” That is precisely what happened. I am telling the truth. I will be believed—as I should be.

    But here is the thing. I did not freeze, nor was I terrified. I was amused and flattered and thought little of it. I knew full well he’d been dying to do that. Our tutorials—which took place one-on-one, with no chaperones—were livelier intellectually for that sublimated undercurrent. He was an Oxford don and so had power over me, sensu stricto. I was a 20-year-old undergraduate. But I also had power over him—power sufficient to cause a venerable don to make a perfect fool of himself at a Christmas party. Unsurprisingly, I loved having that power. But now I have too much power. I have the power to destroy someone whose tutorials were invaluable to me and shaped my entire intellectual life much for the better. This is a power I do not want and should not have.

    Over the course of my academic and professional career, many men who in some way held a position of power over me have made lewd jokes in my presence, or reminisced drunkenly of past lovers, or confessed sexual fantasies. They have hugged me, flirted with me, on occasion propositioned me. For the most part, this male attention has amused me and given me reason to look forward to otherwise dreary days at work. I dread the day I lose my power over men, which I have used to coax them to confide to me on the record secrets they would never have vouchsafed to a male journalist. I did not feel “demeaned” by the realization that some men esteemed my cleavage more than my talent; I felt damned lucky to have enough talent to exploit my cleavage.

    But what if I now feel differently? What if—perhaps moved by the testimony of the many women who have come forward in recent weeks—I were to realize that the ambient sexual culture I meekly accepted as “amusing” was in fact repulsive and loathsome? What if I now realize it did me great emotional damage, harm so profound that only now do I recognize it?
     

    But what if I now feel differently? What if—perhaps moved by the testimony of the many women who have come forward in recent weeks—I were to realize that the ambient sexual culture I meekly accepted as “amusing” was in fact repulsive and loathsome? What if I now realize it did me great emotional damage, harm so profound that only now do I recognize it?

    It probably means you are in an institution where you are being reprogrammed. Now take your pills and watch this TV.

    Or it’s just the inner child…

    “What if I told Mom that you hit me!”

    Women’s liberation was a mistake.

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  102. AndrewR says:
    @Bill
    Stupid? Are you claiming that it is not in Lithwick's interest to say such things?

    Touché. I admit the possibility that she is just feigning stupidity. But I generally assume stupidity before mendacity.

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  103. @Anon
    I don't know, 50 pounds of armor sounds pretty hot to me, in at least one sense of the word ... and when one gets out of it one will be in no shape to resist anything.

    But if you have a real suit of armor it seems a waste to beat it out of shape anyway.

    Look up Eau de Gambason. It’s comparable to a post-game hockey player’s aroma.

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    • Replies: @dr kill
    Wow, I didn't know there was such a cool-sounding phrase to describe the way my hockey gear smelled. Thanks.
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  104. CJ says:
    @Rod1963
    I'd wager a fair amount is.

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.

    And no sane man is going to date some childless 40 something with a cat collection and a high power corporate job.

    They bought into the lies promoted by Madison Avenue and the Feminazis that they could have it all. Not realizing the Madison Avenue types are just con-artists working for corporate America and the Feminazis simply hate young women.

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.

    Lithwick describes herself as married, although I don’t know to what. But what you say is so true of so many. As a friend of mine puts it, “No guy is good enough … no guy is good enough … no guy is good enough … no guy.”

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I think this guy is her husband.

    https://tomtomfest.com/content/uploads/2016/02/A_Fein_headshot_1.jpg
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  105. Cortes says:
    @MIkey Darmody
    Don't forget about the Dating Game Serial Killer Rodney Alcala!

    Victim count between 8 and 130.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Alcala

    Mexico was not sending us their best game show contestants!


    In March 2010, the Huntington Beach and New York City Police Departments released 120 of Alcala's photographs and sought the public's help in identifying them, in the hope of determining if any of the women and children he photographed were additional victims.[9][44] Approximately 900 additional photos could not be made public, police said, because they were too sexually explicit.[29] In the first few weeks, police reported that approximately 21 women had come forward to identify themselves,[45] and "at least six families" said they believed they recognized loved ones who "disappeared years ago and were never found".[46] None of the photos were unequivocally connected to a missing person case or unsolved murder[36] until 2013 when a family member recognized the photo of Christine Thornton, 28, whose body was found in Wyoming in 1982 (see below).[13]
    As of September 2016, 110 of the original photos remain posted online, and police continue to solicit the public's help with further identifications.[47]
     

    From the Wikipedia article:

    “After leaving the Army, Alcala graduated from the UCLA School of Fine Arts and later studied film under Roman Polanski at New York University.[9]

    Early criminal history Edit

    Alcala committed his first known crime in 1968: A motorist in Los Angeles called police after watching him lure an eight-year-old girl named Tali Shapiro[20] into his Hollywood apartment. The girl was found alive, raped and beaten with a steel bar, but Alcala had fled.[21] To evade the resulting arrest warrant he left the state and enrolled in the NYU film school, using the name “John Berger”.”

    Polanski needs no introduction. John Berger is probably best known for his “Ways of Seeing”. How odd, given Alcala’s photographs.

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    • Replies: @L Woods
    This = pedophilia. Robbing 16 year olds from the clutches of the starting lineup = not pedophilia. Glad I could take this opportunity to provide a teachable moment.
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  106. CJ says:

    The Dating Game recruited so many People With Agents.

    That’s because Chuck was an agent himself. A CIA agent, that is.

    Was Chuck Barris a hit man for the CIA?

    And you want to know if maybe he’s making some of this up. You want to know, to be precise, if I think Chuck Barris is a fraud for claiming, inter alia (I have always wanted to write inter alia), that his nom de guerre — the name he used to order airline tickets — was Sunny Sixkiller; that in 1953 he took his 75-year-old grandmother on a camping trip to the Poconos, where they spent a wonderful day, but unfortunately when he woke up the next morning she was dead, so he zipped her body into a sleeping bag, tied it to the roof of his Volkswagen, and drove to a police station, but even more unfortunately while he was inside making a report someone stole the car; that at 16 he persuaded a 13-year-old friend of his sister’s to lick his “wee-wee” by telling her it tasted like a strawberry lollipop; that having been hired by the CIA after answering a want ad, he aced his training and was soon infiltrating a civil rights march in Selma, Alabama; that when ABC decided to air The Dating Game, the CIA said, hey, no reason you can’t be a successful TV producer and a spy; that he kept dodging assignments until his CIA boss said, come with me to Mexico City, it’ll be fun, and during the plane ride casually told Chuck they were going to kill a communist revolutionary, which they did; that after he got back he had three ex-cons destroy the Cadillac of a jerk who was in the habit of pretending to be a Dating Game talent scout and raping would-be contestants; that the CIA then assigned him to meet a courier in London, where he exchanged an envelope of money for a roll of microfilm, then jammed his silencer-equipped automatic into the courier’s mouth and pulled the trigger three times, whereupon “the man’s eyes remained surprised while the back of his head splattered against the wall of the church”; that he then “greased the bullet-shaped vial [of microfilm] with [Vaseline], dropped my pants, and slid the vial up my ass”; that he then sold ABC The Newlywed Game; that he spent $20,000 on abortions for various girlfriends; that he killed a bunch of other people (the details blur); but then a lot of his friends started getting killed because there was a mole in the CIA, but Barris got the last laugh by killing the mole, who turned out to be none other than . . .

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  107. asdf says:

    ” very lengthy article by Dahlia Lithwick about how”
    No kidding.

    As far as I can tell he kissed her as greeting, for a little too long, more than once. And, once asked her what she was wearing over the phone, while she was in a hotel room. She didn’t tell him to back off because she feared for her career, somehow.

    My guess is Dahlia had to make the article that long to obfuscate the fact that some cheesy dude was hot for her once and no-one really cares about that. (Maybe her hubby will get her some pearls to clutch for Xmas.)

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  108. Sabril says:
    @Rod1963
    I'd wager a fair amount is.

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.

    And no sane man is going to date some childless 40 something with a cat collection and a high power corporate job.

    They bought into the lies promoted by Madison Avenue and the Feminazis that they could have it all. Not realizing the Madison Avenue types are just con-artists working for corporate America and the Feminazis simply hate young women.

    Actually the woman who wrote the article is married. But I doubt her husband ever was anywhere near as desirable as Kozinsky was in his prime.

    I think that even among women who avoid the cat route, it’s still pretty difficult to deal with the massive loss in sexual market value.

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  109. Sabril says:
    @SEATAF
    The suggestion is that Lithwick, as a 20-something in a career-crucial clerkship, stayed quiet about her pervy 47-year-old boss because she was carrying a marriage torch for him? Okay...

    Actually Kozinsky was never her boss. She clerked for a different judge.

    And 20 years ago, Kozinsky was sufficiently attractive and accomplished that he could have gotten a 25 year old no problem.

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  110. @BenKenobi
    As usual, classic Onion got it right:

    https://www.theonion.com/area-woman-recalls-days-when-she-resented-being-hit-on-1819567478

    Dorothy Parker’s adulatory biographer wrote that when she was feeling particularly lonely, she’d post the sign MEN on her office door. In truth, though, Miss Parker only floated the idea in a letter to a friend.

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  111. @Harry Baldwin
    PS : seriously, who says “what are you wearing?”

    Howard Stern says that all the time. I wonder if a lot of these sexual harassers were fans back when he was on FM radio and that's where they got their "how to talk sexy to a woman" tips. Stern is a role model of coolness for a lot of Jewish guys.

    In The Journal of Best Practices: A Memoir of Marriage, Asperger Syndrome, and One Man's Quest to Be a Better Husband, David Finch, who has Asperger's, describes trying to learn how to make small talk by listening to the Stern show. This led to awkward moments, like casually asking a coworker, "You got anything going on sexually in your life?"

    casually asking a coworker, “You got anything going on sexually in your life?”

    Sounds more like ass-burgers syndrome.

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  112. @Tiny Duck
    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset - sadly, even among many women - that most don't even realize when it's coloring their opinions or emotions.



    Look at how Hillary Clinton's collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn't portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects - but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset – sadly, even among many women – that most don’t even realize when it’s coloring their opinions or emotions.

    Quite true. British suffragettes told their parliamentary friends never to put their cause in jeopardy by allowing women to vote on it. They had been watching the results in the western US, where that tactic bombed.

    Women vote in every state now, abortion is legal, and the ERA failed. We only listened to women for the last one.

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    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Perhaps we need to respecify the model.
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  113. MBlanc46 says:
    @Tiny Duck
    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset - sadly, even among many women - that most don't even realize when it's coloring their opinions or emotions.



    Look at how Hillary Clinton's collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn't portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects - but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    “Hardcore stoicism of a patriot.” Genius. Sheer genius. You’re wasting your time commenting at iSteve’s, TD. You’ve got to get this material before a live audience. Gold. Pure gold.

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  114. MBlanc46 says:
    @Art Deco
    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn't taking up much rent-free space in people's heads in 1969.

    Except maybe about Liberace.

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  115. MBlanc46 says:
    @Mr. Anon

    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn’t taking up much rent-free space in people’s heads in 1969.
     
    Are you kidding? A lot of people knew that certain celebrities were "light in the loafers". Maybe you didn't, but other people did. By the time he was a regular on Hollywood Squares, nobody living on the coasts didn't know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. As you say, homosexuality didn't occupy the mental space it does today (how could it have?), but people still knew certain things.

    By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Liberace was gay.

    I see that you beat me to it re Liberace.

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  116. @Vinay
    You make good points. However, there’s lots more ways to retaliate short of firing people. You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.

    Hoping to be treated fairly is not the same as hoping for a special favor. Steve’s “Mrs Kozinski” quip basically paints suggests an expectation of a HUGE favor. That simply isn’t true for all the other abuse people put up with in their daily lives.

    You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.

    Some women initiate sex with married male bosses. It’s often a shortcut to career advancement. Other women hate the both of them. Of this I’m 100% sure.

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  117. MBlanc46 says:
    @Corvinus
    "I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more."

    Not that many. Unless, of course, you enjoy calling the homily women in your life as being spiteful when they claim they were groped without permission.

    “Homily women”? Is that something religious?

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  118. L Woods says:
    @Cortes
    From the Wikipedia article:

    “After leaving the Army, Alcala graduated from the UCLA School of Fine Arts and later studied film under Roman Polanski at New York University.[9]

    Early criminal history Edit

    Alcala committed his first known crime in 1968: A motorist in Los Angeles called police after watching him lure an eight-year-old girl named Tali Shapiro[20] into his Hollywood apartment. The girl was found alive, raped and beaten with a steel bar, but Alcala had fled.[21] To evade the resulting arrest warrant he left the state and enrolled in the NYU film school, using the name "John Berger".”

    Polanski needs no introduction. John Berger is probably best known for his “Ways of Seeing”. How odd, given Alcala’s photographs.

    This = pedophilia. Robbing 16 year olds from the clutches of the starting lineup = not pedophilia. Glad I could take this opportunity to provide a teachable moment.

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  119. L Woods says:
    @Rod1963
    I'd wager a fair amount is.

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.

    And no sane man is going to date some childless 40 something with a cat collection and a high power corporate job.

    They bought into the lies promoted by Madison Avenue and the Feminazis that they could have it all. Not realizing the Madison Avenue types are just con-artists working for corporate America and the Feminazis simply hate young women.

    This is a manosphere fantasy. These women that whored around in their 20s and 30s chasing chads and oligarchs? Yeah, they end up just fine. Married to some provider sap whom they treat with utmost disrespect, if not outright infidelity. There’s no just comeuppance. They do better than most of us ever will.

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    • Replies: @sabril

    This is a manosphere fantasy. These women that whored around in their 20s and 30s chasing chads and oligarchs? Yeah, they end up just fine. Married to some provider sap
     
    I agree that's true in a lot of cases, but even so, it must be pretty disturbing to lose so much sexual attractiveness so quickly.
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  120. MKP says:
    @Jim Don Bob
    We have a deal if we agree that the winner gives the $10 to Steve.

    Done. Good luck to you, sir.

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  121. 120 comments and no one has mentioned Sailer’s Law of Female Journalism?! I mean, look at her!

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  122. dr kill says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Look up Eau de Gambason. It's comparable to a post-game hockey player's aroma.

    Wow, I didn’t know there was such a cool-sounding phrase to describe the way my hockey gear smelled. Thanks.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    A gambeson is the padding between a fighter and his armour. Hockey players ain't got nothin' on stick jocks (broadsword-fighters) for olfactory assault..
    , @dr kill
    Yes. I imagine their padding as expensive, quilted and always damp and covered in fungal colonies, sort of like the inside of my hockey bag. The more effective (costly) the padding (thicker, more dense) the less likely to ever dry out. Woof.
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  123. OT, but the first #MeToo related fatality has occurred. A Kentucky congressman has committed suicide over what he claimed were false accusations of sexual assault.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/us/kentucky-state-lawmaker-death/index.html

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  124. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    The idea that a woman has sovereignty over her body… isn’t that exclusive, amorophobic, and discriminatory?

    In the age of open borders, we need open bodies. Women must not say NO to love, affection, desire, passion, inclusion, and etc.

    They should wear a T-shirt that says: “Grope me with your huddled wretched fingers yearning to feel womenfolk.”

    I mean these men are just dreamers(and creamers). What they did wasn’t illegal or criminal. It was undocumented maybe. But they can dream, can’t they?

    No nation belongs to any people. Poland doesn’t belong to the Polish, a woman’s body doesn’t belong to the woman. It belongs to all of humanity. No pair of male hands are illegal. They are human too.

    I say we build a giant statue of Joe Biden to stand behind Lady Liberty and give her the feelies.

    Sexual Exclusion must end. It is elitist and discriminatory for a woman to pick and choose which men get to give her the feelies. She must open herself to ALL. Sexual Freedom isn’t enough. We need Sexual Equality.

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    • LOL: BB753
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  125. Oh, come on, cut her some slack. She’s packed on the pounds, which is an accomplishment considering that she keeps kosher, so let’s allow her a little trip down memory lane to the days when she was under the impression that she turned heads. The photo of her at Slate bears no relation to her current appearance; it’s what Encyclopedia Dramatica used to call, in pre-selfie days, a “fat girl angle shot.”

    By the way, she clerked for a 9th circuit judge named Procter Hug, middle name Ralph, first name Proctor derived from the Greek proktos, meaning “anus,” Hug and Ralph being strictly nondescriptive.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    it’s what Encyclopedia Dramatica used to call, in pre-selfie days, a “fat girl angle shot.”
     
    Also known as Myspace Voodoo.
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  126. Corn says:
    @Tiny Duck
    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset - sadly, even among many women - that most don't even realize when it's coloring their opinions or emotions.



    Look at how Hillary Clinton's collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn't portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects - but as the comical weakness of an old lady. As just one of an infinite number of examples we could each find.

    “Look at how Hillary Clinton’s collapse at the 9/11 memorial wasn’t portrayed as the hardcore stoicism of a patriot, refusing to let illness keep her from paying her respects ”

    You, good xir, are comic gold.

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  127. @Reg Cæsar

    Misogyny is so deeply embedded in our shared cultural mindset – sadly, even among many women – that most don’t even realize when it’s coloring their opinions or emotions.
     
    Quite true. British suffragettes told their parliamentary friends never to put their cause in jeopardy by allowing women to vote on it. They had been watching the results in the western US, where that tactic bombed.

    Women vote in every state now, abortion is legal, and the ERA failed. We only listened to women for the last one.

    Perhaps we need to respecify the model.

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  128. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    Liberace was accused of it in real time. Van Cliburn was not. There's a lesson in their somewhere.

    As for "nobody living on the coasts didn’t know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. ", that has no reality outside your imagination. This casting

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068118/

    post-dated his position on Hollywood Squares by six years.

    That show lasted all of one season. Maybe that’s because people didn’t buy the obviously swishy Lynde as a family man.

    A lot of people back then knew what his mannerisms implied. Homosexuality wasn’t invented in 1969. There were a lot of celebrities whom people suspected of being homosexual. Even Rock Hudson’s name was bandied about as being one in the 70s.

    As for “nobody living on the coasts didn’t know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. “, that has no reality outside your imagination.

    You purport to be quite the expert on reality, or what lies in people’s imaginations. I have seen no evidence that you are much aquainted with reality, or that you yourself even have any imagination.

    Stick to something your good at – like cataloging file cards, clown.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    That show lasted all of one season. Maybe that’s because people didn’t buy the obviously swishy Lynde as a family man.

    Or maybe it's because a comfortable majority of television programs in that era were not deemed to have enough of an audience to merit renewing them.



    You purport to be quite the expert on reality, or what lies in people’s imaginations.

    No, I offer dry bits of factual information which stick in your craw.
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  129. I remember when Lee Dorman was on the Dating Game. He was the bass player for Iron Butterfly at the time, one of my favorite bands at the time. He was picked by one of my favorite playmates. The other two guys just seemed so gay.

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  130. Mr. Anon says:
    @EriK

    I don’t know, I remember some Lynde wink wink queer jokes on Hollywood Squares.
     
    me too

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYu4AVquItM

    You didn’t remember those. You just “imagined” them. Art Deco knows better than you do what you do and do not remember.

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  131. Mr. Anon says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    ... appeared to be undressing you with his eyes, ...
     
    I always wondered how they know that. Do they picture which pieces of clothes I am thinking of taking off, and in what order?

    Women's intuition - powerful, powerful stuff! (apparently)

    Plus, isn't this automatic, once you get to puberty?

    I always wondered how they know that. Do they picture which pieces of clothes I am thinking of taking off, and in what order?

    Maybe Judge Kozinski was staring at Ms. Lithwick because he was mentally dressing her – putting more clothes on her than she was actually wearing.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    A parka.
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  132. cthulhu says:

    The absolute best Dating Game story is the one that Harlan Ellison told in his fabulous early ’70s LA Free Press TV review column, all of which were eventually collected into two books, The Glass Teat and (of course) The Other Glass Teat. I’m sure it’s on some webpage somewhere, and is well worth looking for.

    (The books are great reading too, and are simultaneously timeless and a great time capsule of the early ’70s. His opinion of Yoko Ono and the three-word review of “The Partridge Family” are among many highlights.)

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    the three-word review of “The Partridge Family”
     

    Mother of god!
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  133. Mr. Anon says:
    @Corvinus
    "I wonder how many of these complaints are actually motivated by bitterness over NOT being sexually harassed any more."

    Not that many. Unless, of course, you enjoy calling the homily women in your life as being spiteful when they claim they were groped without permission.

    Not that many.

    Care to offer any evidence for that assertion?

    No, of course not. Without bald assertions, you’d have nothing to say.

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  134. @Alexander Bouro
    Oh, come on, cut her some slack. She's packed on the pounds, which is an accomplishment considering that she keeps kosher, so let's allow her a little trip down memory lane to the days when she was under the impression that she turned heads. The photo of her at Slate bears no relation to her current appearance; it's what Encyclopedia Dramatica used to call, in pre-selfie days, a "fat girl angle shot."

    By the way, she clerked for a 9th circuit judge named Procter Hug, middle name Ralph, first name Proctor derived from the Greek proktos, meaning "anus," Hug and Ralph being strictly nondescriptive.

    it’s what Encyclopedia Dramatica used to call, in pre-selfie days, a “fat girl angle shot.”

    Also known as Myspace Voodoo.

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  135. @cthulhu
    The absolute best Dating Game story is the one that Harlan Ellison told in his fabulous early '70s LA Free Press TV review column, all of which were eventually collected into two books, The Glass Teat and (of course) The Other Glass Teat. I'm sure it's on some webpage somewhere, and is well worth looking for.

    (The books are great reading too, and are simultaneously timeless and a great time capsule of the early '70s. His opinion of Yoko Ono and the three-word review of "The Partridge Family" are among many highlights.)

    the three-word review of “The Partridge Family”

    [MORE]

    Mother of god!

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  136. @dr kill
    Wow, I didn't know there was such a cool-sounding phrase to describe the way my hockey gear smelled. Thanks.

    A gambeson is the padding between a fighter and his armour. Hockey players ain’t got nothin’ on stick jocks (broadsword-fighters) for olfactory assault..

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  137. Svigor says:

    People who watch game shows should KTN. I suppose Jeopardy is the exception that proves the rule (totally a coincidence that Steve was on Jprdy, srysly).

    Wait, nah. Regularly watching a game show, even Jeopardy, is KYN territory.

    (I possess none of these garments, BTW.)

    A likely story.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    For reals. Mostly tie-on sleeves and modesty pieces
    http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/images-new/carpaccio-ursula.jpg

    with the occasional foray into hoop-skirts for American Civil War
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/9d/98/6e9d98cb74a63c3e9aa92a6b6a4fe826.jpg
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  138. Kylie says:
    @Tom-in-VA
    Uh huh.

    http://billmoyers.com/guest/dahlia-lithwick/

    Thanks a lot.

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  139. Clyde says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    TD, Don't cut and paste. We can simply review your other comments to see this isn't your work. You haven't posted a "refrigerator quality" comment yet. Shame.

    Obvious cut n paste is what came to my mind too. Not one of that quack’s finest moments.

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  140. gcochran says:
    @Mr. Anon

    I always wondered how they know that. Do they picture which pieces of clothes I am thinking of taking off, and in what order?
     
    Maybe Judge Kozinski was staring at Ms. Lithwick because he was mentally dressing her - putting more clothes on her than she was actually wearing.

    A parka.

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  141. In my experience, attractive women of slightly above average intelligence are very touchy about being thought of as bimbos. They can hold incredible grudges over this issue. It’s almost on a par with being told you’re a bad mother. Less intelligent women don’t really care, and high IQ women aren’t that touchy because they know they are smart. I’m guessing this high IQ judge (rightly or wrongly) treated her as a bimbo (which made her feel “small”) and she still smarts about this twenty years later.

    There’s probably some evo psych aspect to this. Successful intelligent men tend to choose mates based on a combination of looks and brains, so attractive, marginally intelligent women are subconsciously very touchy when successful, intelligent men treat them like bimbos. It sends a threatening message to their limbic system that they aren’t suitable marriage material for men in their social orbit.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    In my experience, attractive women of slightly above average intelligence are very touchy about being thought of as bimbos. They can hold incredible grudges over this issue. It’s almost on a par with being told you’re a bad mother. Less intelligent women don’t really care, and high IQ women aren’t that touchy because they know they are smart. I’m guessing this high IQ judge (rightly or wrongly) treated her as a bimbo (which made her feel “small”) and she still smarts about this twenty years later.

    The women in question were clerking for a federal judge and (in Lithwick's case) had a hat full of Ivy League degrees. Her intelligence was ample (though her self-confidence about her intelligence may not have been). I suspect Lithwick's problem was that she was a much better performer as a student of law than as a working lawyer, something that was manifest to her as soon as she was working for a firm. (Her husband is a failed architect).
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  142. sabril says:
    @L Woods
    This is a manosphere fantasy. These women that whored around in their 20s and 30s chasing chads and oligarchs? Yeah, they end up just fine. Married to some provider sap whom they treat with utmost disrespect, if not outright infidelity. There's no just comeuppance. They do better than most of us ever will.

    This is a manosphere fantasy. These women that whored around in their 20s and 30s chasing chads and oligarchs? Yeah, they end up just fine. Married to some provider sap

    I agree that’s true in a lot of cases, but even so, it must be pretty disturbing to lose so much sexual attractiveness so quickly.

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  143. sabril says:
    @Vinay
    You make good points. However, there’s lots more ways to retaliate short of firing people. You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.

    Hoping to be treated fairly is not the same as hoping for a special favor. Steve’s “Mrs Kozinski” quip basically paints suggests an expectation of a HUGE favor. That simply isn’t true for all the other abuse people put up with in their daily lives.

    You make good points. However, there’s lots more ways to retaliate short of firing people. You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.

    And there are few if any stories of that either. Except that in a general sense, most womens’ years of effort come to nought (outside of marrying and having children and/or getting a boost from a male patron).

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Most men's do, too, outside of clinging precariously to a middling position – with (maybe) annual raises that just match inflation – one has no chance of ever rising beyond within some Hellish, Byzantine corporation or other bureaucracy. Even many self-employed contractors and professional folks (lawyers, builders, etc.) are mostly just trying to keep the bills paid (and, if they are lucky, scrimp what tiny bit they can into meagre savings).
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  144. @biz
    Check it out, they're coming for Tavis Smiley now.

    But he's fighting back!

    “It is clear that this has gone too far,” he said. "It’s time for a real conversation in this country about where the lines are, about how men and women can engage each other in the workplace. And I look forward to actively participating in that conversation.”
     

    "If having a consensual relationship with a colleague years ago is the stuff that leads to this kind of public humiliation and personal destruction, heaven help us."
     
    This could be the case that turns the whole thing around. It looks like the main accusations revolve around consensual sex. This time they're messing with a NAM and he's not going down without a fight.

    He may never be on their air again but they’ll be paying him, he’ll get a handsome award when he wins the defamation/wrongful termination suit.

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  145. @Mr. Anon

    He was cast repeatedly as a husband and father over the course of his career. Paul-Lynde-the-Transgressive-Flamer is a retrospective fiction, much like Peppermint-Patty-the-Lesbian-Icon and Nancy-Kulp-the-Lesbian-Icon (the last comes with a dubious bit of reportage wherein a homosexual author insists she told him in a confidential interview not to be published until her death blah blah). Homosexuality wasn’t taking up much rent-free space in people’s heads in 1969.
     
    Are you kidding? A lot of people knew that certain celebrities were "light in the loafers". Maybe you didn't, but other people did. By the time he was a regular on Hollywood Squares, nobody living on the coasts didn't know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. As you say, homosexuality didn't occupy the mental space it does today (how could it have?), but people still knew certain things.

    By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Liberace was gay.

    OMG! Liberace was gay? /sarc

    Lynde was an actor who could plausibly, albeit unlikely pull off the role of a hetero. Liberace was in-your-face flaming.

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  146. dr kill says:
    @dr kill
    Wow, I didn't know there was such a cool-sounding phrase to describe the way my hockey gear smelled. Thanks.

    Yes. I imagine their padding as expensive, quilted and always damp and covered in fungal colonies, sort of like the inside of my hockey bag. The more effective (costly) the padding (thicker, more dense) the less likely to ever dry out. Woof.

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  147. Art Deco says:
    @unpc downunder
    In my experience, attractive women of slightly above average intelligence are very touchy about being thought of as bimbos. They can hold incredible grudges over this issue. It's almost on a par with being told you're a bad mother. Less intelligent women don't really care, and high IQ women aren't that touchy because they know they are smart. I'm guessing this high IQ judge (rightly or wrongly) treated her as a bimbo (which made her feel "small") and she still smarts about this twenty years later.

    There's probably some evo psych aspect to this. Successful intelligent men tend to choose mates based on a combination of looks and brains, so attractive, marginally intelligent women are subconsciously very touchy when successful, intelligent men treat them like bimbos. It sends a threatening message to their limbic system that they aren't suitable marriage material for men in their social orbit.

    In my experience, attractive women of slightly above average intelligence are very touchy about being thought of as bimbos. They can hold incredible grudges over this issue. It’s almost on a par with being told you’re a bad mother. Less intelligent women don’t really care, and high IQ women aren’t that touchy because they know they are smart. I’m guessing this high IQ judge (rightly or wrongly) treated her as a bimbo (which made her feel “small”) and she still smarts about this twenty years later.

    The women in question were clerking for a federal judge and (in Lithwick’s case) had a hat full of Ivy League degrees. Her intelligence was ample (though her self-confidence about her intelligence may not have been). I suspect Lithwick’s problem was that she was a much better performer as a student of law than as a working lawyer, something that was manifest to her as soon as she was working for a firm. (Her husband is a failed architect).

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  148. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon
    That show lasted all of one season. Maybe that's because people didn't buy the obviously swishy Lynde as a family man.

    A lot of people back then knew what his mannerisms implied. Homosexuality wasn't invented in 1969. There were a lot of celebrities whom people suspected of being homosexual. Even Rock Hudson's name was bandied about as being one in the 70s.

    As for “nobody living on the coasts didn’t know that Lynde was as queer as a three-dollar bill. “, that has no reality outside your imagination.
     
    You purport to be quite the expert on reality, or what lies in people's imaginations. I have seen no evidence that you are much aquainted with reality, or that you yourself even have any imagination.

    Stick to something your good at - like cataloging file cards, clown.

    That show lasted all of one season. Maybe that’s because people didn’t buy the obviously swishy Lynde as a family man.

    Or maybe it’s because a comfortable majority of television programs in that era were not deemed to have enough of an audience to merit renewing them.

    You purport to be quite the expert on reality, or what lies in people’s imaginations.

    No, I offer dry bits of factual information which stick in your craw.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    No, I offer dry bits of factual information which stick in your craw.
     
    No. You offer irrelevant bits of pedantry dressed up as erudition and delivered with the smug pomposity of an insufferable popinjay. That is - evidently - your only talent.
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  149. @Anonymous
    Isn't it amazing how I just remembered that you sexually assaulted me at the very same time you got old and ugly?

    Variant from The Simpsons, Sherri and Terri to Lisa : isn't it amazing that we realized we're friends with you right when you got a swimming pool?

    PS : seriously, who says "what are you wearing?"

    Nah; the “what are you wearing?” is an old chestnut; the classic way to convey ribald or at least romantic interest via telephone because it effectively communicates the speaker had rather see the listener and is interested in visualising her as they speak.

    Does no one else remember the video for Aerosmith’s “Sweet Emotion?”

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  150. Art Deco says:
    @CJ

    These women played games pursuing high status men forgetting they have a sell-by-date and now they have no one. No family, nothing.
     
    Lithwick describes herself as married, although I don't know to what. But what you say is so true of so many. As a friend of mine puts it, "No guy is good enough ... no guy is good enough ... no guy is good enough ... no guy."

    I think this guy is her husband.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Man their kids must be Jewcy as Hell, with parents that Jewcy.
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  151. @sabril

    You make good points. However, there’s lots more ways to retaliate short of firing people. You can make people’s years of effort come to nought.
     
    And there are few if any stories of that either. Except that in a general sense, most womens' years of effort come to nought (outside of marrying and having children and/or getting a boost from a male patron).

    Most men’s do, too, outside of clinging precariously to a middling position – with (maybe) annual raises that just match inflation – one has no chance of ever rising beyond within some Hellish, Byzantine corporation or other bureaucracy. Even many self-employed contractors and professional folks (lawyers, builders, etc.) are mostly just trying to keep the bills paid (and, if they are lucky, scrimp what tiny bit they can into meagre savings).

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  152. @Neoconned
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

    Mexican bombshell Salma Hayek has come out now after all the "braver voices" that she called them have already done the heavy lfiting....talking about how Harvey abused or mistreated her or whatever.

    There's no mention of the fact that even at age 50 she STILL can get ANY man she wants even MUCH younger men or even teenagers if she wanted them.

    Or the fact she's married to somebody slightly above Harvey's lot in life -- a French billionaire who spoils her rotten....

    Like what Steve mentioned in his now infamous post -- or what somebody mentioned a few days after in the comments, I forget:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/salma-hayek-and-a-black-actress-debate-who-deserves-more-intersectional-pokemon-points/

    If all the women coming into the USA looked LIKE THAT:

    https://i0.wp.com/celebrityinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Salma-Hayek-Biography.jpg

    I mean that's HER AT 50ish and she STILL LOOKS THAT GOOD....

    Now imagine if these women came over, single, no kids, no husband attached. And she was a man-hungry husband seeker.

    The only catch -- she had to marry ANY American man within 5 years....so say 50-100 million Latin American women and then say 100 million from Arabic/Islamic nations, India, and east Asia showed up looking to marry or date single or taken American men and they're youngish -- say 18-50 and they want to please their American men....

    Well I mean think about all those women in the dating market who play the field and do the mudshark thing on the downlow before they spread their venereal disease to their white partners and get dumped.....

    Well, all those free dinners, the older guy picking up the tab for your car note or your insurance payments or your mortgage or "help you out with the bills" money....all that goldbricking, gold-digging scheming , racketeering, gaming etc -- goes down the toilet.

    Now there's COMPETITION! As whiskey put it -- Kate Steinle getting wacked was good because hey -- bimbos HATE HATE HATE pretty rivals. What about mudshark fatties who get run over when they swarm some mental case's car and threaten to lynch him and he panics and runs a few over -- oh that's terrorism and sexism, so forth.

    Let's name it after Trump -- look what he did -- married an exotic IMMIGRANT and foreign model....

    Let's do the same -- how would you - single or dumped by your wife and now in your 40s-60s....how would you like say an Indian babe who's 30ish and can't find a husband in India but who looks good in a sarong or whatever they call those things or a big thighed dusky curvy Algerian beauty who otherwise would be wasted in some harem of some 3rd world tribal idiot in North Africa?

    Let's flood the US with single women -- hell pay them dowries....even then it'd be way cheaper than paying for the upkeep of all these insane gold diggers....

    For 20 years ONLY single non-maried women between say 18-50 can immigrate.

    Then what are all the cat ladies in waiting going to do?

    First they'll claim sex trafficking and pimping, blah blah but when they see how happy the women are with their "loser" white or otherwise American husbands and how they can't game the system no more....well, they'll just have to do what the rest of us icky creepy guys do -- go out and get a JOB! And boy would that suck. Let me tell you -- getting up at 4am to scrub toilets at McD's sucks a fat one.

    these women are going to have it rough if we do what we really should do -- which is import brides -- and let our own women humble themselves or they can move to Africa and became sex slaves to some big man or sheikh....and be despised by all his other jealous brides....

    My ninety-five-pound, twenty-nine-year-old Colombian wife and I agree(d). Ain’t nothing wrong with your plan. Like I said around here once earlier: since American wymyn are so damned keen on immivasion, I say we give it to them good and hard.

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    • Replies: @Neoconned1
    Amen to that sir.... sadly to borrow a phrase from the star wars prequels......

    The Russiagate promoters have Congress "bogged down in proceedings"...

    So we need to redirect the attention to immigration. Sadly, don't think that'll happen....
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  153. @sabril
    25 years and 50 pounds ago she probably would have qualified as "Law School Hot."

    Make no mistake, there are downright gorgeous women in law schools and as lawyers. The vast majority, though, are gaming for graduate M.R.S. degrees; most wash our of practice once they snag the handsome partner or their own younger man’s career takes off and it’s time to be a mommy. They may keep a gig as “of counsel” or move to cheesy, easy work like being the head of diversity or business development (where being hot is especially handy; you never saw so many attractive people as there are in variations of sales and recruiting for high-dollar outfits…).

    Don’t forget: a huge proportion of hottie news babes and pundits are recovering lawyers.

    A few continue on vamping and slutting it up indefinitely, reveling in the sea of powerful men at their firm, corporation, or governmental agency the way a studly, heterosexual ballerino nailing all the ingenues in his profession might. The most (purely physically) beautiful woman I ever personally knew slept with married guys in the law school for a lark; she dug the challenge or taboo or whatever).

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    Insurance claims adjustment is an area I've observed to have some potential for the pretty, shapely and smart young woman. That would be a plausible career track, or at least a diversion for some years, for those not wishing to be called to the Bar. Settlements may be reduced with the right application of charms, resulting in some incentive payment for the motivated rep.

    No word on how that works on players on the same team, but big companies probably have a deep bench.
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  154. Corvinus says:
    @sabril
    Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago.

    And it does seem like a lot of the recent accusers are post-wall.

    “Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago.”

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.

    “And it does seem like a lot of the recent accusers are post-wall.”

    “Post-wall” is not observably a exclusive female thing. The painful truth is that there are men and women who lose their sex appeal, either due to genetics (i.e. not growing old gracefully) or a hard lifestyle that caught up to them, or simply because they choose to “let themselves go”. In the end, the “wall” is individualized and subjective for men and women. The general age for either sex to hit this “wall” is dependent on a large combination of factors. Of course, those who subscribe to Manospherist theory insist that only women are subject to its horrors, but in reality men are also hit hard.

    Chronic user of drugs and/or alcohol and/or tobacco, heavy consumption of empty calories, consistent lack of exercise leading to obesity, obsession with career, perpetual chaser of skirts with outright refusal to settle down, the unrealistic dating checklist that continues to expand…all are accelerants for men and women to not be their optimal self, even if they are in their “prime years” (e.g. in their 20′s).

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    • Replies: @sabril

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.
     
    I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as "creepy." But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of "groping"?

    “Post-wall” is not observably a exclusive female thing
     
    Assuming that's true, so what? I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens' sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it's possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.

    I think the reason the word "wall" is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there's pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall. With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word "wall" for men too, be my guest. It won't affect my point.

    By the way, are you a girl?
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Undressing a woman with one's eyes worked well when Rhett Butler did it, because he, and Clark Gable who played him, qualified as handsome.

    It is creepy when someone like Weinstein does it. Ick.

    As for Kosinski, he's not nearly as reprllant as Weinstein, but neither was he ever a Rhett Butler.

    This is about aesthetics, not morality.
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  155. @Art Deco
    I think this guy is her husband.

    https://tomtomfest.com/content/uploads/2016/02/A_Fein_headshot_1.jpg

    Man their kids must be Jewcy as Hell, with parents that Jewcy.

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  156. @Autochthon
    My ninety-five-pound, twenty-nine-year-old Colombian wife and I agree(d). Ain't nothing wrong with your plan. Like I said around here once earlier: since American wymyn are so damned keen on immivasion, I say we give it to them good and hard.

    Amen to that sir…. sadly to borrow a phrase from the star wars prequels……

    The Russiagate promoters have Congress “bogged down in proceedings”…

    So we need to redirect the attention to immigration. Sadly, don’t think that’ll happen….

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  157. Ivy says:
    @Autochthon
    Make no mistake, there are downright gorgeous women in law schools and as lawyers. The vast majority, though, are gaming for graduate M.R.S. degrees; most wash our of practice once they snag the handsome partner or their own younger man's career takes off and it's time to be a mommy. They may keep a gig as "of counsel" or move to cheesy, easy work like being the head of diversity or business development (where being hot is especially handy; you never saw so many attractive people as there are in variations of sales and recruiting for high-dollar outfits...).

    Don't forget: a huge proportion of hottie news babes and pundits are recovering lawyers.

    A few continue on vamping and slutting it up indefinitely, reveling in the sea of powerful men at their firm, corporation, or governmental agency the way a studly, heterosexual ballerino nailing all the ingenues in his profession might. The most (purely physically) beautiful woman I ever personally knew slept with married guys in the law school for a lark; she dug the challenge or taboo or whatever).

    Insurance claims adjustment is an area I’ve observed to have some potential for the pretty, shapely and smart young woman. That would be a plausible career track, or at least a diversion for some years, for those not wishing to be called to the Bar. Settlements may be reduced with the right application of charms, resulting in some incentive payment for the motivated rep.

    No word on how that works on players on the same team, but big companies probably have a deep bench.

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  158. sabril says:
    @Corvinus
    "Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago."

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.

    "And it does seem like a lot of the recent accusers are post-wall."

    "Post-wall" is not observably a exclusive female thing. The painful truth is that there are men and women who lose their sex appeal, either due to genetics (i.e. not growing old gracefully) or a hard lifestyle that caught up to them, or simply because they choose to "let themselves go". In the end, the "wall" is individualized and subjective for men and women. The general age for either sex to hit this "wall" is dependent on a large combination of factors. Of course, those who subscribe to Manospherist theory insist that only women are subject to its horrors, but in reality men are also hit hard.

    Chronic user of drugs and/or alcohol and/or tobacco, heavy consumption of empty calories, consistent lack of exercise leading to obesity, obsession with career, perpetual chaser of skirts with outright refusal to settle down, the unrealistic dating checklist that continues to expand...all are accelerants for men and women to not be their optimal self, even if they are in their "prime years" (e.g. in their 20's).

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.

    I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as “creepy.” But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of “groping”?

    “Post-wall” is not observably a exclusive female thing

    Assuming that’s true, so what? I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.

    I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall. With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point.

    By the way, are you a girl?

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as “creepy.”"

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy. There is a distinction here.

    "But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of “groping”?"

    OK.

    "I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age."

    Similar to women.

    "The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens."

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women's decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one's own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.

    "I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid..."

    With SOME women the decline is rapid. With OTHER women it is gradual.

    "and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall."

    Diet and exercise assuredly make a dent in this wall for men and for women.

    "With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success."

    Again, for SOME men it may be gentle, but for other men it is precipitous fall.

    "But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point."

    Your point is based on an opinion.

    "By the way, are you a girl?"

    No, I'm a white American man who is calling out your BS.
    , @dfordoom

    I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.
     
    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.

    That just doesn't happen for women. No matter how much money or power they have it's still downhill all the way after 30. By 40 it's all over.

    I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall.
     
    It's exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it's devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.


    With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point.
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  159. Corvinus says:
    @sabril

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.
     
    I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as "creepy." But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of "groping"?

    “Post-wall” is not observably a exclusive female thing
     
    Assuming that's true, so what? I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens' sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it's possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.

    I think the reason the word "wall" is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there's pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall. With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word "wall" for men too, be my guest. It won't affect my point.

    By the way, are you a girl?

    “I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as “creepy.””

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy. There is a distinction here.

    “But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of “groping”?”

    OK.

    “I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age.”

    Similar to women.

    “The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.”

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women’s decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one’s own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.

    “I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid…”

    With SOME women the decline is rapid. With OTHER women it is gradual.

    “and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall.”

    Diet and exercise assuredly make a dent in this wall for men and for women.

    “With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success.”

    Again, for SOME men it may be gentle, but for other men it is precipitous fall.

    “But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point.”

    Your point is based on an opinion.

    “By the way, are you a girl?”

    No, I’m a white American man who is calling out your BS.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    No, I’m a white American man who is calling out your BS.
     
    That's rich, coming from you. Sabril's posts are often quite insightful and thoughtful.

    Yours, on the other hand, write the most boring, predictable, and fellacious crap one can imagine. They could be replaced by Rachel Maddow's teleprompter.

    You're a zero.

    , @Anon
    You have no grounds to criticize anyone for giving their opinions, since you have nothing else.

    By the way, if you are an American the school system has really let you down. You should take remedial English lessons as soon as possible. This will help you as you go through life.
    , @sabril

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy
     
    Then what exactly did you mean when you said "perceived creepy fashion"? Is it your position that there is an objective standard for what is "creepy" and behavior which meets that standard will inevitably be perceived as "creepy" and behavior which does not meet that standard will not?

    OK.
     
    Then I have no idea what your point was.

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women’s decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one’s own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.
     
    I'm not sure what your point is here. Attractiveness is always about perception. Nevertheless, there is enough commonality in what people find sexually attractive that it's reasonable to talk about sexual attractiveness as an objective quality.

    I think it's pretty clear that -- generally speaking -- women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness with age than do men. Which is hardly a surprise given that women also suffer a sharper decline in fertility with age compared to men.

    Are you disputing this? In other words, are you disputing that -- generally speaking -- in terms of aging, women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness to the opposite sex than do men?

    Also, are you disputing that most of these sexual harassment complaints that have been in the news lately have been made by women who are past their period of peak sexual attractiveness?

    No, I’m a white American man who is calling out your BS.
     
    That's interesting because in my experience it's usually women who freak out when presented with information that they perceive as putting women in a negative light. I find that a lot of women really bristle at the phrase "post-wall," presumably because they don't like the idea of losing one of their big advantages in life, especially when compared to men.

    Anyway, what exactly have I said that's BS in your view? What point did I make that you disagree with?
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  160. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    That show lasted all of one season. Maybe that’s because people didn’t buy the obviously swishy Lynde as a family man.

    Or maybe it's because a comfortable majority of television programs in that era were not deemed to have enough of an audience to merit renewing them.



    You purport to be quite the expert on reality, or what lies in people’s imaginations.

    No, I offer dry bits of factual information which stick in your craw.

    No, I offer dry bits of factual information which stick in your craw.

    No. You offer irrelevant bits of pedantry dressed up as erudition and delivered with the smug pomposity of an insufferable popinjay. That is – evidently – your only talent.

    Read More
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  161. Mr. Anon says:
    @Corvinus
    "I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as “creepy.”"

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy. There is a distinction here.

    "But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of “groping”?"

    OK.

    "I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age."

    Similar to women.

    "The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens."

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women's decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one's own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.

    "I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid..."

    With SOME women the decline is rapid. With OTHER women it is gradual.

    "and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall."

    Diet and exercise assuredly make a dent in this wall for men and for women.

    "With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success."

    Again, for SOME men it may be gentle, but for other men it is precipitous fall.

    "But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point."

    Your point is based on an opinion.

    "By the way, are you a girl?"

    No, I'm a white American man who is calling out your BS.

    No, I’m a white American man who is calling out your BS.

    That’s rich, coming from you. Sabril’s posts are often quite insightful and thoughtful.

    Yours, on the other hand, write the most boring, predictable, and fellacious crap one can imagine. They could be replaced by Rachel Maddow’s teleprompter.

    You’re a zero.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    It's cute how you and Anon go all white knighting for Sabril. All in the Christmas spirit!
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  162. dfordoom says: • Website
    @sabril

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.
     
    I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as "creepy." But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of "groping"?

    “Post-wall” is not observably a exclusive female thing
     
    Assuming that's true, so what? I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens' sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it's possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.

    I think the reason the word "wall" is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there's pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall. With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word "wall" for men too, be my guest. It won't affect my point.

    By the way, are you a girl?

    I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.

    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.

    That just doesn’t happen for women. No matter how much money or power they have it’s still downhill all the way after 30. By 40 it’s all over.

    I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall.

    It’s exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it’s devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.

    With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @sabril

    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.
     
    That's true, although part of it is that men don't start out with the big boost in sexual marketplace value enjoyed by women.

    It’s exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it’s devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.
     
    Even then, I think it's pretty traumatic for a lot of women. Any psychiatrist will tell you that there is a huge problem with depression among middle-aged women. I strongly suspect that a big part of it is the change in how they are treated.

    When a girl is in her late teens and twenties, people are extremely deferential to her. This is not really discussed much because it goes against the narrative of women as victims, but in reality young women are pampered and protected by a society which values them very highly; and especially by men who desperately want validation and approval by young women. I think a lot of women don't even realize how good they have it, they just assume it's the normal way that people are treated. So that when they hit the wall it can be a real shock and I can easily see that triggering depression.
    , @Corvinus
    "That just doesn’t happen for women. No matter how much money or power they have it’s still downhill all the way after 30. By 40 it’s all over."

    You are basing your conclusion on a false premise, that women as a group undoubtedly go "downhill" after 30. Certainly some women when they reach that age may get flabby, may get lax in their sexual fervor in a relationship, may still be fixated in finding the "perfect man" and thus remain single. It is no different than for a number of men as well, and to think otherwise is ham-fisted logic on your part.

    "And for a woman it’s devastating."

    Again, for SOME women, absolutely.

    "Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter."

    You ASSUME she is going to feel that way, but you have little way of knowing that it was the case in every circumstance.
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  163. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    "I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as “creepy.”"

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy. There is a distinction here.

    "But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of “groping”?"

    OK.

    "I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age."

    Similar to women.

    "The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens."

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women's decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one's own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.

    "I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid..."

    With SOME women the decline is rapid. With OTHER women it is gradual.

    "and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall."

    Diet and exercise assuredly make a dent in this wall for men and for women.

    "With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success."

    Again, for SOME men it may be gentle, but for other men it is precipitous fall.

    "But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point."

    Your point is based on an opinion.

    "By the way, are you a girl?"

    No, I'm a white American man who is calling out your BS.

    You have no grounds to criticize anyone for giving their opinions, since you have nothing else.

    By the way, if you are an American the school system has really let you down. You should take remedial English lessons as soon as possible. This will help you as you go through life.

    Read More
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  164. sabril says:
    @Corvinus
    "I would have to disagree, since anything can be perceived as “creepy.”"

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy. There is a distinction here.

    "But can we at least agree that this judge was not accused of “groping”?"

    OK.

    "I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age."

    Similar to women.

    "The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens."

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women's decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one's own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.

    "I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid..."

    With SOME women the decline is rapid. With OTHER women it is gradual.

    "and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall."

    Diet and exercise assuredly make a dent in this wall for men and for women.

    "With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success."

    Again, for SOME men it may be gentle, but for other men it is precipitous fall.

    "But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point."

    Your point is based on an opinion.

    "By the way, are you a girl?"

    No, I'm a white American man who is calling out your BS.

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy

    Then what exactly did you mean when you said “perceived creepy fashion”? Is it your position that there is an objective standard for what is “creepy” and behavior which meets that standard will inevitably be perceived as “creepy” and behavior which does not meet that standard will not?

    OK.

    Then I have no idea what your point was.

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women’s decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one’s own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.

    I’m not sure what your point is here. Attractiveness is always about perception. Nevertheless, there is enough commonality in what people find sexually attractive that it’s reasonable to talk about sexual attractiveness as an objective quality.

    I think it’s pretty clear that — generally speaking — women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness with age than do men. Which is hardly a surprise given that women also suffer a sharper decline in fertility with age compared to men.

    Are you disputing this? In other words, are you disputing that — generally speaking — in terms of aging, women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness to the opposite sex than do men?

    Also, are you disputing that most of these sexual harassment complaints that have been in the news lately have been made by women who are past their period of peak sexual attractiveness?

    No, I’m a white American man who is calling out your BS.

    That’s interesting because in my experience it’s usually women who freak out when presented with information that they perceive as putting women in a negative light. I find that a lot of women really bristle at the phrase “post-wall,” presumably because they don’t like the idea of losing one of their big advantages in life, especially when compared to men.

    Anyway, what exactly have I said that’s BS in your view? What point did I make that you disagree with?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    “Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago.”"

    She made no reference to the situation as being "flirtatious". You labeled that interaction in that manner. When he friend stated that “He completely ignored me and appeared to be undressing you with his eyes", it is reasonable for some people to perceive it as being creepy, as being other than flirtatious. Certainly, some women may have found it flattering, or may even have dismissed it, or noticed it but said nothing about it. Context matters.

    "Nevertheless, there is enough commonality in what people find sexually attractive that it’s reasonable to talk about sexual attractiveness as an objective quality."

    People differ as to those how those standards are employed. There is a framework by which people refer to as far as sexual attractiveness. The subjective part comes from applying it --> Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty. One person may even perceive deformity, where another is sensible of beauty; and every individual ought to acquiesce in his own sentiment, without pretending to regulate those of others. (Hume, 1757).

    "I think it’s pretty clear that — generally speaking — women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness with age than do men."

    YOU, along with other men and women, feel that way. Which does not mean it is definitively accurate.

    "Which is hardly a surprise given that women also suffer a sharper decline in fertility with age compared to men."

    Which does not necessarily mean that a female's beauty is compromised.

    "Also, are you disputing that most of these sexual harassment complaints that have been in the news lately have been made by women who are past their period of peak sexual attractiveness?"

    I am disputing your assertions that it 1) matters if women are "past their peak" when making these accusations and 2) women compared to men have a quicker sexual attractiveness "expiration date".

    Regardless if you believe they are "past their peak", in a number of cases, the accusations should be properly vetted. If the evidence suggests that the woman lied, she should go to jail. If the evidence suggests that the man broke the law, he should go to jail.

    As far as the recent rabid environment regarding sexual harassment, we reap what we sow with a society that promotes mixed messages of sex, power, and status. The men and women involved in these sordid affairs in Hollywood, for example, are both to blame for pursing their careers at all costs, with men refusing to keep their d--- in their pants and to curb their rutting instinct, and women who let it happen, only to claim later when it is convenient to come out en masse that they didn't appreciate being used like a hobby horse.

    "That’s interesting because in my experience it’s usually women who freak out when presented with information that they perceive as putting women in a negative light. I find that a lot of women really bristle at the phrase “post-wall,” presumably because they don’t like the idea of losing one of their big advantages in life, especially when compared to men."

    Exactly, YOUR experience. Which for a number of men may not be the case. I find that more women than not laugh off the phrase "post-wall", noting the men who have made that statement were clearly already there, or that they were butt hurt about being rejected, or that those words observably mean little to them.
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  165. sabril says:
    @dfordoom

    I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.
     
    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.

    That just doesn't happen for women. No matter how much money or power they have it's still downhill all the way after 30. By 40 it's all over.

    I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall.
     
    It's exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it's devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.


    With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point.

    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.

    That’s true, although part of it is that men don’t start out with the big boost in sexual marketplace value enjoyed by women.

    It’s exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it’s devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.

    Even then, I think it’s pretty traumatic for a lot of women. Any psychiatrist will tell you that there is a huge problem with depression among middle-aged women. I strongly suspect that a big part of it is the change in how they are treated.

    When a girl is in her late teens and twenties, people are extremely deferential to her. This is not really discussed much because it goes against the narrative of women as victims, but in reality young women are pampered and protected by a society which values them very highly; and especially by men who desperately want validation and approval by young women. I think a lot of women don’t even realize how good they have it, they just assume it’s the normal way that people are treated. So that when they hit the wall it can be a real shock and I can easily see that triggering depression.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "That’s true, although part of it is that men don’t start out with the big boost in sexual marketplace value enjoyed by women."

    Men and women create their "value" in middle school. For young boys, being athletic or having a keen sense of humor can certainly give them the required "hit points" to counter the parries of young girls.

    Although, in the end, why are some men and women so wrapped up in this SMV, as if it is the end all and be all in life. In anything, it is just another concoction compliments of the "cool kids" regarding the ins and outs of the social-sexual hierarchy. Most men and women have their own personal preferences as to what is of "value" to them when it comes to attractiveness.

    "Any psychiatrist will tell you that there is a huge problem with depression among middle-aged women. I strongly suspect that a big part of it is the change in how they are treated."

    Certainly for some women losing their looks leads to being in a depressed state. But for the majority of women, it's hormonal. According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness, "most life experiences attributed to depression are unique to women, such as post-partum changes, infertility, and hormonal fluctuation. Evidence has shown that people suffering from depression have different brain chemistry which is altered by hormones that control emotions and mood. These hormones are particularly heightened during certain times in a women’s life, including postpartum period and menopause."

    "When a girl is in her late teens and twenties, people are extremely deferential to her. This is not really discussed much because it goes against the narrative of women as victims, but in reality young women are pampered and protected by a society which values them very highlyband especially by men who desperately want validation and approval by young women. I think a lot of women don’t even realize how good they have it, they just assume it’s the normal way that people are treated. So that when they hit the wall it can be a real shock and I can easily see that triggering depression."

    Here is the reality of the current situation--some young ladies feel entitled based on their looks to get what they want and whenever they want from guys; some fellas oblige, only to find out their efforts were for naught. Other young ladies drop the attitude and are actually kind and respectful; in turn, the guys here date, marry, and have children with them. Men and women have it good in how they view relationships and what they bring to the table. For men and women who have commitment issues, or who believe they should be "dominant" in the relationship, that is where the trouble starts.
    , @dfordoom

    I think a lot of women don’t even realize how good they have it,
     
    Now you've really hit the nail on the head. Civilisation was created by men, for women. And young women today are the most privileged people who have ever walked the Earth. They're all princesses. And like your average princess they just assume that they have a divine right to be treated like princesses.

    And then that wall comes along and it hits them, hard. They're not princesses any more. It's not that they're treated badly. All women are treated well in our society. But being treated well is not the same as being treated like a princess.
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  166. Corvinus says:
    @Mr. Anon

    No, I’m a white American man who is calling out your BS.
     
    That's rich, coming from you. Sabril's posts are often quite insightful and thoughtful.

    Yours, on the other hand, write the most boring, predictable, and fellacious crap one can imagine. They could be replaced by Rachel Maddow's teleprompter.

    You're a zero.

    It’s cute how you and Anon go all white knighting for Sabril. All in the Christmas spirit!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    It’s cute how you and Anon go all white knighting for Sabril. All in the Christmas spirit!
     
    Hardly white-knighting. I don't even like the guy, nor does he like me.

    But he has interesting things to say. You don't.

    It's called "honesty", something with which you are unfamiliar.
    , @Anon
    As a self-professed Christian, surely you must rejoice at such behavior and resolve to emulate it.
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  167. Corvinus says:
    @dfordoom

    I certainly agree that after a certain point, mens’ sexual attractiveness declines with age. The decline may not be as steep as that of women; and it’s possible to counteract it to some degree by obtaining wealth and status; but it definitely happens.
     
    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.

    That just doesn't happen for women. No matter how much money or power they have it's still downhill all the way after 30. By 40 it's all over.

    I think the reason the word “wall” is mainly used for women is that with women the decline is so rapid and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done about it, kinda like hitting a wall.
     
    It's exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it's devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.


    With men, the decline is much more gentle and it can be ameliorated to a large extent by things like career success. But if you want to use the word “wall” for men too, be my guest. It won’t affect my point.

    “That just doesn’t happen for women. No matter how much money or power they have it’s still downhill all the way after 30. By 40 it’s all over.”

    You are basing your conclusion on a false premise, that women as a group undoubtedly go “downhill” after 30. Certainly some women when they reach that age may get flabby, may get lax in their sexual fervor in a relationship, may still be fixated in finding the “perfect man” and thus remain single. It is no different than for a number of men as well, and to think otherwise is ham-fisted logic on your part.

    “And for a woman it’s devastating.”

    Again, for SOME women, absolutely.

    “Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.”

    You ASSUME she is going to feel that way, but you have little way of knowing that it was the case in every circumstance.

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    • Replies: @sabril

    You are basing your conclusion on a false premise, that women as a group undoubtedly go “downhill” after 30.
     
    Your argument seems to be that this is not true for 100% of women and therefore it is false. In other words, you are using a variant of the basic NAWALT argument.

    A charitable reading of dfordoom's post is that he's talking about women in general and on average (and men in general and on average). Put another way, you are attacking a strawman.

    Is it really so terrible to admit that -- in general and on average -- women's sexual attractiveness declines much more rapidly with age than men's?

    Is it really so terrible to admit that -- in general and on average -- men have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline (by improving their wealth and status) while women don't? (Or do but to a far lower extent?)

    The sky won't fall if you just admit these things rather than nitpick, strawman, or try to change the subject.
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  168. sabril says:
    @Corvinus
    "That just doesn’t happen for women. No matter how much money or power they have it’s still downhill all the way after 30. By 40 it’s all over."

    You are basing your conclusion on a false premise, that women as a group undoubtedly go "downhill" after 30. Certainly some women when they reach that age may get flabby, may get lax in their sexual fervor in a relationship, may still be fixated in finding the "perfect man" and thus remain single. It is no different than for a number of men as well, and to think otherwise is ham-fisted logic on your part.

    "And for a woman it’s devastating."

    Again, for SOME women, absolutely.

    "Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter."

    You ASSUME she is going to feel that way, but you have little way of knowing that it was the case in every circumstance.

    You are basing your conclusion on a false premise, that women as a group undoubtedly go “downhill” after 30.

    Your argument seems to be that this is not true for 100% of women and therefore it is false. In other words, you are using a variant of the basic NAWALT argument.

    A charitable reading of dfordoom’s post is that he’s talking about women in general and on average (and men in general and on average). Put another way, you are attacking a strawman.

    Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — women’s sexual attractiveness declines much more rapidly with age than men’s?

    Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — men have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline (by improving their wealth and status) while women don’t? (Or do but to a far lower extent?)

    The sky won’t fall if you just admit these things rather than nitpick, strawman, or try to change the subject.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    There was no strawman. Try again.

    "Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — women’s sexual attractiveness declines much more rapidly with age than men’s?"

    There you go assuming again. Is is so horrific to acknowledge that BOTH men and women's sexual attractiveness decline for a host of reasons, with men and women dropping at similar rates as they age as a result of those factors?

    "Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — men have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline (by improving their wealth and status) while women don’t? (Or do but to a far lower extent?)"

    Yet another assumption. Is it so horrific to acknowledge then men and women each have the potential to slow or reverse the decline through wealth, status, weight training, diet/exercise, and plastic surgery?
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  169. Mr. Anon says:
    @Corvinus
    It's cute how you and Anon go all white knighting for Sabril. All in the Christmas spirit!

    It’s cute how you and Anon go all white knighting for Sabril. All in the Christmas spirit!

    Hardly white-knighting. I don’t even like the guy, nor does he like me.

    But he has interesting things to say. You don’t.

    It’s called “honesty”, something with which you are unfamiliar.

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  170. Corvinus says:
    @sabril

    You are basing your conclusion on a false premise, that women as a group undoubtedly go “downhill” after 30.
     
    Your argument seems to be that this is not true for 100% of women and therefore it is false. In other words, you are using a variant of the basic NAWALT argument.

    A charitable reading of dfordoom's post is that he's talking about women in general and on average (and men in general and on average). Put another way, you are attacking a strawman.

    Is it really so terrible to admit that -- in general and on average -- women's sexual attractiveness declines much more rapidly with age than men's?

    Is it really so terrible to admit that -- in general and on average -- men have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline (by improving their wealth and status) while women don't? (Or do but to a far lower extent?)

    The sky won't fall if you just admit these things rather than nitpick, strawman, or try to change the subject.

    There was no strawman. Try again.

    “Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — women’s sexual attractiveness declines much more rapidly with age than men’s?”

    There you go assuming again. Is is so horrific to acknowledge that BOTH men and women’s sexual attractiveness decline for a host of reasons, with men and women dropping at similar rates as they age as a result of those factors?

    “Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — men have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline (by improving their wealth and status) while women don’t? (Or do but to a far lower extent?)”

    Yet another assumption. Is it so horrific to acknowledge then men and women each have the potential to slow or reverse the decline through wealth, status, weight training, diet/exercise, and plastic surgery?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Either sabril was correct about the strawman argument or your post is incomprehensible.

    Please restate it.
    , @sabril

    There was no strawman. Try again.
     
    Saying it doesn't make it so. You clearly attacked a strawman.

    To make matters worse, I asked you a few simple, reasonable yes or no questions to figure out what your position is and (unsurprisingly) you ducked them.

    Anyway, I don't engage with people who strawman or who hide their positions behind a cloak of ambiguity.

    Goodbye.
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  171. Corvinus says:
    @sabril

    No, not anything. Just specific behavior that observably is creepy
     
    Then what exactly did you mean when you said "perceived creepy fashion"? Is it your position that there is an objective standard for what is "creepy" and behavior which meets that standard will inevitably be perceived as "creepy" and behavior which does not meet that standard will not?

    OK.
     
    Then I have no idea what your point was.

    You are under the assumption that overall, a women’s decline in her looks and physicality is more steep compared to a man. That assessment is based on one’s own perception of the matter, and not absolute certainty.
     
    I'm not sure what your point is here. Attractiveness is always about perception. Nevertheless, there is enough commonality in what people find sexually attractive that it's reasonable to talk about sexual attractiveness as an objective quality.

    I think it's pretty clear that -- generally speaking -- women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness with age than do men. Which is hardly a surprise given that women also suffer a sharper decline in fertility with age compared to men.

    Are you disputing this? In other words, are you disputing that -- generally speaking -- in terms of aging, women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness to the opposite sex than do men?

    Also, are you disputing that most of these sexual harassment complaints that have been in the news lately have been made by women who are past their period of peak sexual attractiveness?

    No, I’m a white American man who is calling out your BS.
     
    That's interesting because in my experience it's usually women who freak out when presented with information that they perceive as putting women in a negative light. I find that a lot of women really bristle at the phrase "post-wall," presumably because they don't like the idea of losing one of their big advantages in life, especially when compared to men.

    Anyway, what exactly have I said that's BS in your view? What point did I make that you disagree with?

    “Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago.””

    She made no reference to the situation as being “flirtatious”. You labeled that interaction in that manner. When he friend stated that “He completely ignored me and appeared to be undressing you with his eyes”, it is reasonable for some people to perceive it as being creepy, as being other than flirtatious. Certainly, some women may have found it flattering, or may even have dismissed it, or noticed it but said nothing about it. Context matters.

    “Nevertheless, there is enough commonality in what people find sexually attractive that it’s reasonable to talk about sexual attractiveness as an objective quality.”

    People differ as to those how those standards are employed. There is a framework by which people refer to as far as sexual attractiveness. The subjective part comes from applying it –> Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty. One person may even perceive deformity, where another is sensible of beauty; and every individual ought to acquiesce in his own sentiment, without pretending to regulate those of others. (Hume, 1757).

    “I think it’s pretty clear that — generally speaking — women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness with age than do men.”

    YOU, along with other men and women, feel that way. Which does not mean it is definitively accurate.

    “Which is hardly a surprise given that women also suffer a sharper decline in fertility with age compared to men.”

    Which does not necessarily mean that a female’s beauty is compromised.

    “Also, are you disputing that most of these sexual harassment complaints that have been in the news lately have been made by women who are past their period of peak sexual attractiveness?”

    I am disputing your assertions that it 1) matters if women are “past their peak” when making these accusations and 2) women compared to men have a quicker sexual attractiveness “expiration date”.

    Regardless if you believe they are “past their peak”, in a number of cases, the accusations should be properly vetted. If the evidence suggests that the woman lied, she should go to jail. If the evidence suggests that the man broke the law, he should go to jail.

    As far as the recent rabid environment regarding sexual harassment, we reap what we sow with a society that promotes mixed messages of sex, power, and status. The men and women involved in these sordid affairs in Hollywood, for example, are both to blame for pursing their careers at all costs, with men refusing to keep their d— in their pants and to curb their rutting instinct, and women who let it happen, only to claim later when it is convenient to come out en masse that they didn’t appreciate being used like a hobby horse.

    “That’s interesting because in my experience it’s usually women who freak out when presented with information that they perceive as putting women in a negative light. I find that a lot of women really bristle at the phrase “post-wall,” presumably because they don’t like the idea of losing one of their big advantages in life, especially when compared to men.”

    Exactly, YOUR experience. Which for a number of men may not be the case. I find that more women than not laugh off the phrase “post-wall”, noting the men who have made that statement were clearly already there, or that they were butt hurt about being rejected, or that those words observably mean little to them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Put into simple English: Lithwick not groped. No grope of Lithwick.
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  172. @Corvinus
    "Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago."

    Giving the impression that you are wantonly undressing someone with their eyes in a perceived creepy fashion is not flirting.

    "And it does seem like a lot of the recent accusers are post-wall."

    "Post-wall" is not observably a exclusive female thing. The painful truth is that there are men and women who lose their sex appeal, either due to genetics (i.e. not growing old gracefully) or a hard lifestyle that caught up to them, or simply because they choose to "let themselves go". In the end, the "wall" is individualized and subjective for men and women. The general age for either sex to hit this "wall" is dependent on a large combination of factors. Of course, those who subscribe to Manospherist theory insist that only women are subject to its horrors, but in reality men are also hit hard.

    Chronic user of drugs and/or alcohol and/or tobacco, heavy consumption of empty calories, consistent lack of exercise leading to obesity, obsession with career, perpetual chaser of skirts with outright refusal to settle down, the unrealistic dating checklist that continues to expand...all are accelerants for men and women to not be their optimal self, even if they are in their "prime years" (e.g. in their 20's).

    Undressing a woman with one’s eyes worked well when Rhett Butler did it, because he, and Clark Gable who played him, qualified as handsome.

    It is creepy when someone like Weinstein does it. Ick.

    As for Kosinski, he’s not nearly as reprllant as Weinstein, but neither was he ever a Rhett Butler.

    This is about aesthetics, not morality.

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  173. Corvinus says:
    @sabril

    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.
     
    That's true, although part of it is that men don't start out with the big boost in sexual marketplace value enjoyed by women.

    It’s exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it’s devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.
     
    Even then, I think it's pretty traumatic for a lot of women. Any psychiatrist will tell you that there is a huge problem with depression among middle-aged women. I strongly suspect that a big part of it is the change in how they are treated.

    When a girl is in her late teens and twenties, people are extremely deferential to her. This is not really discussed much because it goes against the narrative of women as victims, but in reality young women are pampered and protected by a society which values them very highly; and especially by men who desperately want validation and approval by young women. I think a lot of women don't even realize how good they have it, they just assume it's the normal way that people are treated. So that when they hit the wall it can be a real shock and I can easily see that triggering depression.

    “That’s true, although part of it is that men don’t start out with the big boost in sexual marketplace value enjoyed by women.”

    Men and women create their “value” in middle school. For young boys, being athletic or having a keen sense of humor can certainly give them the required “hit points” to counter the parries of young girls.

    Although, in the end, why are some men and women so wrapped up in this SMV, as if it is the end all and be all in life. In anything, it is just another concoction compliments of the “cool kids” regarding the ins and outs of the social-sexual hierarchy. Most men and women have their own personal preferences as to what is of “value” to them when it comes to attractiveness.

    “Any psychiatrist will tell you that there is a huge problem with depression among middle-aged women. I strongly suspect that a big part of it is the change in how they are treated.”

    Certainly for some women losing their looks leads to being in a depressed state. But for the majority of women, it’s hormonal. According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness, “most life experiences attributed to depression are unique to women, such as post-partum changes, infertility, and hormonal fluctuation. Evidence has shown that people suffering from depression have different brain chemistry which is altered by hormones that control emotions and mood. These hormones are particularly heightened during certain times in a women’s life, including postpartum period and menopause.”

    “When a girl is in her late teens and twenties, people are extremely deferential to her. This is not really discussed much because it goes against the narrative of women as victims, but in reality young women are pampered and protected by a society which values them very highlyband especially by men who desperately want validation and approval by young women. I think a lot of women don’t even realize how good they have it, they just assume it’s the normal way that people are treated. So that when they hit the wall it can be a real shock and I can easily see that triggering depression.”

    Here is the reality of the current situation–some young ladies feel entitled based on their looks to get what they want and whenever they want from guys; some fellas oblige, only to find out their efforts were for naught. Other young ladies drop the attitude and are actually kind and respectful; in turn, the guys here date, marry, and have children with them. Men and women have it good in how they view relationships and what they bring to the table. For men and women who have commitment issues, or who believe they should be “dominant” in the relationship, that is where the trouble starts.

    Read More
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  174. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    It's cute how you and Anon go all white knighting for Sabril. All in the Christmas spirit!

    As a self-professed Christian, surely you must rejoice at such behavior and resolve to emulate it.

    Read More
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  175. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    “Except that this Lithwick person does not accuse Kozinsky of groping, with or without permission. The accusation is that he flirted with her. 25 years ago.”"

    She made no reference to the situation as being "flirtatious". You labeled that interaction in that manner. When he friend stated that “He completely ignored me and appeared to be undressing you with his eyes", it is reasonable for some people to perceive it as being creepy, as being other than flirtatious. Certainly, some women may have found it flattering, or may even have dismissed it, or noticed it but said nothing about it. Context matters.

    "Nevertheless, there is enough commonality in what people find sexually attractive that it’s reasonable to talk about sexual attractiveness as an objective quality."

    People differ as to those how those standards are employed. There is a framework by which people refer to as far as sexual attractiveness. The subjective part comes from applying it --> Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty. One person may even perceive deformity, where another is sensible of beauty; and every individual ought to acquiesce in his own sentiment, without pretending to regulate those of others. (Hume, 1757).

    "I think it’s pretty clear that — generally speaking — women suffer a sharper decline in sexual attractiveness with age than do men."

    YOU, along with other men and women, feel that way. Which does not mean it is definitively accurate.

    "Which is hardly a surprise given that women also suffer a sharper decline in fertility with age compared to men."

    Which does not necessarily mean that a female's beauty is compromised.

    "Also, are you disputing that most of these sexual harassment complaints that have been in the news lately have been made by women who are past their period of peak sexual attractiveness?"

    I am disputing your assertions that it 1) matters if women are "past their peak" when making these accusations and 2) women compared to men have a quicker sexual attractiveness "expiration date".

    Regardless if you believe they are "past their peak", in a number of cases, the accusations should be properly vetted. If the evidence suggests that the woman lied, she should go to jail. If the evidence suggests that the man broke the law, he should go to jail.

    As far as the recent rabid environment regarding sexual harassment, we reap what we sow with a society that promotes mixed messages of sex, power, and status. The men and women involved in these sordid affairs in Hollywood, for example, are both to blame for pursing their careers at all costs, with men refusing to keep their d--- in their pants and to curb their rutting instinct, and women who let it happen, only to claim later when it is convenient to come out en masse that they didn't appreciate being used like a hobby horse.

    "That’s interesting because in my experience it’s usually women who freak out when presented with information that they perceive as putting women in a negative light. I find that a lot of women really bristle at the phrase “post-wall,” presumably because they don’t like the idea of losing one of their big advantages in life, especially when compared to men."

    Exactly, YOUR experience. Which for a number of men may not be the case. I find that more women than not laugh off the phrase "post-wall", noting the men who have made that statement were clearly already there, or that they were butt hurt about being rejected, or that those words observably mean little to them.

    Put into simple English: Lithwick not groped. No grope of Lithwick.

    Read More
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  176. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    There was no strawman. Try again.

    "Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — women’s sexual attractiveness declines much more rapidly with age than men’s?"

    There you go assuming again. Is is so horrific to acknowledge that BOTH men and women's sexual attractiveness decline for a host of reasons, with men and women dropping at similar rates as they age as a result of those factors?

    "Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — men have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline (by improving their wealth and status) while women don’t? (Or do but to a far lower extent?)"

    Yet another assumption. Is it so horrific to acknowledge then men and women each have the potential to slow or reverse the decline through wealth, status, weight training, diet/exercise, and plastic surgery?

    Either sabril was correct about the strawman argument or your post is incomprehensible.

    Please restate it.

    Read More
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  177. sabril says:
    @Corvinus
    There was no strawman. Try again.

    "Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — women’s sexual attractiveness declines much more rapidly with age than men’s?"

    There you go assuming again. Is is so horrific to acknowledge that BOTH men and women's sexual attractiveness decline for a host of reasons, with men and women dropping at similar rates as they age as a result of those factors?

    "Is it really so terrible to admit that — in general and on average — men have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline (by improving their wealth and status) while women don’t? (Or do but to a far lower extent?)"

    Yet another assumption. Is it so horrific to acknowledge then men and women each have the potential to slow or reverse the decline through wealth, status, weight training, diet/exercise, and plastic surgery?

    There was no strawman. Try again.

    Saying it doesn’t make it so. You clearly attacked a strawman.

    To make matters worse, I asked you a few simple, reasonable yes or no questions to figure out what your position is and (unsurprisingly) you ducked them.

    Anyway, I don’t engage with people who strawman or who hide their positions behind a cloak of ambiguity.

    Goodbye.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "To make matters worse, I asked you a few simple, reasonable yes or no questions to figure out what your position is and (unsurprisingly) you ducked them."

    I clearly answered them.

    "Anyway, I don’t engage with people who strawman or who hide their positions behind a cloak of ambiguity."

    There isn't any ambiguity here.

    Men and women have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline.

    Men and women’s sexual attractiveness each decline, in some cases rapidly, as they age.
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  178. dfordoom says: • Website
    @sabril

    Wealth and status are such effective ameliorating factors that for many men their sexual attractiveness increases with age.
     
    That's true, although part of it is that men don't start out with the big boost in sexual marketplace value enjoyed by women.

    It’s exactly like hitting a wall. And for a woman it’s devastating. Unless she has a good marriage and kids she is going to become angry and bitter.
     
    Even then, I think it's pretty traumatic for a lot of women. Any psychiatrist will tell you that there is a huge problem with depression among middle-aged women. I strongly suspect that a big part of it is the change in how they are treated.

    When a girl is in her late teens and twenties, people are extremely deferential to her. This is not really discussed much because it goes against the narrative of women as victims, but in reality young women are pampered and protected by a society which values them very highly; and especially by men who desperately want validation and approval by young women. I think a lot of women don't even realize how good they have it, they just assume it's the normal way that people are treated. So that when they hit the wall it can be a real shock and I can easily see that triggering depression.

    I think a lot of women don’t even realize how good they have it,

    Now you’ve really hit the nail on the head. Civilisation was created by men, for women. And young women today are the most privileged people who have ever walked the Earth. They’re all princesses. And like your average princess they just assume that they have a divine right to be treated like princesses.

    And then that wall comes along and it hits them, hard. They’re not princesses any more. It’s not that they’re treated badly. All women are treated well in our society. But being treated well is not the same as being treated like a princess.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    You are only partly correct.
    Women who grew up pretty will feel entitled, and be shocked when the privilege disappears along with the babe factor. Women who grew up ugly ducklings and pretty much stayed that way are already bitter, even when they are young.
    Women who've had awkward phases alternating with pretty are probably the most realistic. They know that the pretty can disappear just as abruptly as it arrived. They also remember which guys made fun of them or ignored them, and which were at least civil; they know that guys will remember if the women abuse the pretty while they still have it.
    , @Corvinus
    "Now you’ve really hit the nail on the head. Civilisation was created by men, for women."

    Civilization was created by men with women for men and women.

    "And young women today are the most privileged people who have ever walked the Earth. They’re all princesses."

    All? Every single one? See, when you employ this term "all", you are making a wild generalization here. Certainly there are SOME women who were brought up that way or act in that manner, but assuredly not ALL think and behave as "princesses".
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  179. @Svigor
    People who watch game shows should KTN. I suppose Jeopardy is the exception that proves the rule (totally a coincidence that Steve was on Jprdy, srysly).

    Wait, nah. Regularly watching a game show, even Jeopardy, is KYN territory.

    (I possess none of these garments, BTW.)
     
    A likely story.

    For reals. Mostly tie-on sleeves and modesty pieces

    with the occasional foray into hoop-skirts for American Civil War

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  180. @dfordoom

    I think a lot of women don’t even realize how good they have it,
     
    Now you've really hit the nail on the head. Civilisation was created by men, for women. And young women today are the most privileged people who have ever walked the Earth. They're all princesses. And like your average princess they just assume that they have a divine right to be treated like princesses.

    And then that wall comes along and it hits them, hard. They're not princesses any more. It's not that they're treated badly. All women are treated well in our society. But being treated well is not the same as being treated like a princess.

    You are only partly correct.
    Women who grew up pretty will feel entitled, and be shocked when the privilege disappears along with the babe factor. Women who grew up ugly ducklings and pretty much stayed that way are already bitter, even when they are young.
    Women who’ve had awkward phases alternating with pretty are probably the most realistic. They know that the pretty can disappear just as abruptly as it arrived. They also remember which guys made fun of them or ignored them, and which were at least civil; they know that guys will remember if the women abuse the pretty while they still have it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    Pierre de Ronsard wrote about similar themes almost 500 years ago, as others have through the years. Here is one of his more famous poems. Many familiar and timeless themes, time flies, youth and beauty fade, fun and evocative meanings interpreted differently as one ages.

    Mignonne, allons voir si la rose
    Qui ce matin avait déclose
    Sa robe de pourpre au soleil,
    A point perdu cette vesprée
    Les plis de sa robe pourprée,
    Et son teint au votre pareil.

    Las ! voyez comme en peu d'espace,
    Mignonne, elle a dessus la place,
    Las, las ses beautés laissé choir !
    O vraiment marâtre Nature,
    Puisqu'une telle fleur ne dure
    Que du matin jusques au soir !

    Donc, si vous me croyez, mignonne,
    Tandis que vôtre âge fleuronne
    En sa plus verte nouveauté,
    Cueillez, cueillez votre jeunesse:
    Comme à cette fleur, la vieillesse
    Fera ternir votre beauté.
    , @sabril

    Women who grew up pretty will feel entitled, and be shocked when the privilege disappears along with the babe factor.
     
    I think even average looking and below-average looking young women enjoy a phenomenal amount of privilege, especially when compared to men. We are constantly told how horrible it is that unattractive young women are exposed to advertisements with pretty, slender women in them. Because it might make them feel bad about themselves. We are constantly told how barbie dolls are the devil's tool because they are "unrealistic." But society couldn't care less about he-man.

    It's true that "hot babe" is the easiest mode in life, but "average looking babe" isn't so difficult either.
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  181. Ivy says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    You are only partly correct.
    Women who grew up pretty will feel entitled, and be shocked when the privilege disappears along with the babe factor. Women who grew up ugly ducklings and pretty much stayed that way are already bitter, even when they are young.
    Women who've had awkward phases alternating with pretty are probably the most realistic. They know that the pretty can disappear just as abruptly as it arrived. They also remember which guys made fun of them or ignored them, and which were at least civil; they know that guys will remember if the women abuse the pretty while they still have it.

    Pierre de Ronsard wrote about similar themes almost 500 years ago, as others have through the years. Here is one of his more famous poems. Many familiar and timeless themes, time flies, youth and beauty fade, fun and evocative meanings interpreted differently as one ages.

    Mignonne, allons voir si la rose
    Qui ce matin avait déclose
    Sa robe de pourpre au soleil,
    A point perdu cette vesprée
    Les plis de sa robe pourprée,
    Et son teint au votre pareil.

    Las ! voyez comme en peu d’espace,
    Mignonne, elle a dessus la place,
    Las, las ses beautés laissé choir !
    O vraiment marâtre Nature,
    Puisqu’une telle fleur ne dure
    Que du matin jusques au soir !

    Donc, si vous me croyez, mignonne,
    Tandis que vôtre âge fleuronne
    En sa plus verte nouveauté,
    Cueillez, cueillez votre jeunesse:
    Comme à cette fleur, la vieillesse
    Fera ternir votre beauté.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
    Robert Herrick, 1591 - 1674

    Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
    Old Time is still a-flying;
    And this same flower that smiles today
    Tomorrow will be dying.

    The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
    The higher he's a-getting,
    The sooner will his race be run,
    And nearer he's to setting.

    That age is best which is the first,
    When youth and blood are warmer;
    But being spent, the worse, and worst
    Times still succeed the former.

    Then be not coy, but use your time,
    And while ye may, go marry;
    For having lost but once your prime,
    You may forever tarry.
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  182. Corvinus says:
    @sabril

    There was no strawman. Try again.
     
    Saying it doesn't make it so. You clearly attacked a strawman.

    To make matters worse, I asked you a few simple, reasonable yes or no questions to figure out what your position is and (unsurprisingly) you ducked them.

    Anyway, I don't engage with people who strawman or who hide their positions behind a cloak of ambiguity.

    Goodbye.

    “To make matters worse, I asked you a few simple, reasonable yes or no questions to figure out what your position is and (unsurprisingly) you ducked them.”

    I clearly answered them.

    “Anyway, I don’t engage with people who strawman or who hide their positions behind a cloak of ambiguity.”

    There isn’t any ambiguity here.

    Men and women have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline.

    Men and women’s sexual attractiveness each decline, in some cases rapidly, as they age.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    You do nothing "clearly".

    Let's take a reader poll. Who here thought Corvinus "clearly answered" anything in this dialogue? If so, what?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  183. Corvinus says:
    @dfordoom

    I think a lot of women don’t even realize how good they have it,
     
    Now you've really hit the nail on the head. Civilisation was created by men, for women. And young women today are the most privileged people who have ever walked the Earth. They're all princesses. And like your average princess they just assume that they have a divine right to be treated like princesses.

    And then that wall comes along and it hits them, hard. They're not princesses any more. It's not that they're treated badly. All women are treated well in our society. But being treated well is not the same as being treated like a princess.

    “Now you’ve really hit the nail on the head. Civilisation was created by men, for women.”

    Civilization was created by men with women for men and women.

    “And young women today are the most privileged people who have ever walked the Earth. They’re all princesses.”

    All? Every single one? See, when you employ this term “all”, you are making a wild generalization here. Certainly there are SOME women who were brought up that way or act in that manner, but assuredly not ALL think and behave as “princesses”.

    Read More
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  184. Corvinus says:
    @Neoconned
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

    Mexican bombshell Salma Hayek has come out now after all the "braver voices" that she called them have already done the heavy lfiting....talking about how Harvey abused or mistreated her or whatever.

    There's no mention of the fact that even at age 50 she STILL can get ANY man she wants even MUCH younger men or even teenagers if she wanted them.

    Or the fact she's married to somebody slightly above Harvey's lot in life -- a French billionaire who spoils her rotten....

    Like what Steve mentioned in his now infamous post -- or what somebody mentioned a few days after in the comments, I forget:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/salma-hayek-and-a-black-actress-debate-who-deserves-more-intersectional-pokemon-points/

    If all the women coming into the USA looked LIKE THAT:

    https://i0.wp.com/celebrityinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Salma-Hayek-Biography.jpg

    I mean that's HER AT 50ish and she STILL LOOKS THAT GOOD....

    Now imagine if these women came over, single, no kids, no husband attached. And she was a man-hungry husband seeker.

    The only catch -- she had to marry ANY American man within 5 years....so say 50-100 million Latin American women and then say 100 million from Arabic/Islamic nations, India, and east Asia showed up looking to marry or date single or taken American men and they're youngish -- say 18-50 and they want to please their American men....

    Well I mean think about all those women in the dating market who play the field and do the mudshark thing on the downlow before they spread their venereal disease to their white partners and get dumped.....

    Well, all those free dinners, the older guy picking up the tab for your car note or your insurance payments or your mortgage or "help you out with the bills" money....all that goldbricking, gold-digging scheming , racketeering, gaming etc -- goes down the toilet.

    Now there's COMPETITION! As whiskey put it -- Kate Steinle getting wacked was good because hey -- bimbos HATE HATE HATE pretty rivals. What about mudshark fatties who get run over when they swarm some mental case's car and threaten to lynch him and he panics and runs a few over -- oh that's terrorism and sexism, so forth.

    Let's name it after Trump -- look what he did -- married an exotic IMMIGRANT and foreign model....

    Let's do the same -- how would you - single or dumped by your wife and now in your 40s-60s....how would you like say an Indian babe who's 30ish and can't find a husband in India but who looks good in a sarong or whatever they call those things or a big thighed dusky curvy Algerian beauty who otherwise would be wasted in some harem of some 3rd world tribal idiot in North Africa?

    Let's flood the US with single women -- hell pay them dowries....even then it'd be way cheaper than paying for the upkeep of all these insane gold diggers....

    For 20 years ONLY single non-maried women between say 18-50 can immigrate.

    Then what are all the cat ladies in waiting going to do?

    First they'll claim sex trafficking and pimping, blah blah but when they see how happy the women are with their "loser" white or otherwise American husbands and how they can't game the system no more....well, they'll just have to do what the rest of us icky creepy guys do -- go out and get a JOB! And boy would that suck. Let me tell you -- getting up at 4am to scrub toilets at McD's sucks a fat one.

    these women are going to have it rough if we do what we really should do -- which is import brides -- and let our own women humble themselves or they can move to Africa and became sex slaves to some big man or sheikh....and be despised by all his other jealous brides....

    Cool story, bro.

    Read More
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  185. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    "To make matters worse, I asked you a few simple, reasonable yes or no questions to figure out what your position is and (unsurprisingly) you ducked them."

    I clearly answered them.

    "Anyway, I don’t engage with people who strawman or who hide their positions behind a cloak of ambiguity."

    There isn't any ambiguity here.

    Men and women have the potential to slow or even reverse the decline.

    Men and women’s sexual attractiveness each decline, in some cases rapidly, as they age.

    You do nothing “clearly”.

    Let’s take a reader poll. Who here thought Corvinus “clearly answered” anything in this dialogue? If so, what?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  186. sabril says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    You are only partly correct.
    Women who grew up pretty will feel entitled, and be shocked when the privilege disappears along with the babe factor. Women who grew up ugly ducklings and pretty much stayed that way are already bitter, even when they are young.
    Women who've had awkward phases alternating with pretty are probably the most realistic. They know that the pretty can disappear just as abruptly as it arrived. They also remember which guys made fun of them or ignored them, and which were at least civil; they know that guys will remember if the women abuse the pretty while they still have it.

    Women who grew up pretty will feel entitled, and be shocked when the privilege disappears along with the babe factor.

    I think even average looking and below-average looking young women enjoy a phenomenal amount of privilege, especially when compared to men. We are constantly told how horrible it is that unattractive young women are exposed to advertisements with pretty, slender women in them. Because it might make them feel bad about themselves. We are constantly told how barbie dolls are the devil’s tool because they are “unrealistic.” But society couldn’t care less about he-man.

    It’s true that “hot babe” is the easiest mode in life, but “average looking babe” isn’t so difficult either.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  187. @Ivy
    Pierre de Ronsard wrote about similar themes almost 500 years ago, as others have through the years. Here is one of his more famous poems. Many familiar and timeless themes, time flies, youth and beauty fade, fun and evocative meanings interpreted differently as one ages.

    Mignonne, allons voir si la rose
    Qui ce matin avait déclose
    Sa robe de pourpre au soleil,
    A point perdu cette vesprée
    Les plis de sa robe pourprée,
    Et son teint au votre pareil.

    Las ! voyez comme en peu d'espace,
    Mignonne, elle a dessus la place,
    Las, las ses beautés laissé choir !
    O vraiment marâtre Nature,
    Puisqu'une telle fleur ne dure
    Que du matin jusques au soir !

    Donc, si vous me croyez, mignonne,
    Tandis que vôtre âge fleuronne
    En sa plus verte nouveauté,
    Cueillez, cueillez votre jeunesse:
    Comme à cette fleur, la vieillesse
    Fera ternir votre beauté.

    To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
    Robert Herrick, 1591 – 1674

    Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
    Old Time is still a-flying;
    And this same flower that smiles today
    Tomorrow will be dying.

    The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
    The higher he’s a-getting,
    The sooner will his race be run,
    And nearer he’s to setting.

    That age is best which is the first,
    When youth and blood are warmer;
    But being spent, the worse, and worst
    Times still succeed the former.

    Then be not coy, but use your time,
    And while ye may, go marry;
    For having lost but once your prime,
    You may forever tarry.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

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