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From The Guardian:

From Kendrick’s Pulitzer to Beychella: how the mainstream woke up to black excellence

This week the unparalleled contributions of black performers were finally recognised by the establishment. Why has it taken so long?

Kyla Marshell

… [Beyonce] is the most beloved artist on the face of the planet, but had to watch Adele, a huge Beyoncé fan, reluctantly accept the 2017 Grammy for Album of the Year over her. In previous years, Beyoncé lost that award to Beck and to Taylor Swift.

Do you realize that Beyonce has only won 22 Grammys?

There’s a reason Kanye West ran up to a different award stage, at the Video Music awards in 2009, to snatch the microphone from Taylor Swift to deem Beyoncé’s Single Ladies “one of the best videos of all time”– because mainstream institutions rarely give black artists their due. You can hold your breath waiting on that recognition; or you can take matters – and mics – into your own hands.

This reality harks back to what so many black children are taught by our parents: that we have to “work twice as hard to earn half as much”.

Black megalomania can be pretty entertaining, as African dictator Big Men like Idi Amin have demonstrated, but just how seriously do we have to take it?

 
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  1. Humbles says:

    Megalomania is about the only thing that blacks uniformly excell at. I’m not saying that facetiously. Have you ever met a black person, male or female, who didn’t have extremely high — some might say excessive– self-esteem?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tiny Duck
    Well, that and impregnating white girls

    The truth is that Black excellence woke up the mainstream. As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy

    You couldn't guck with this guys swag

    https://www.youtube.com/user/JemelOneFive/videos?disable_polymer=1
    , @Cato
    Only you aren't allowed to say this in public:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/17/satoshi-kanazawa-black-women-less-attractive_n_863327.html

    In the end, Kanazawa had to grovel.
    , @Anon
    Maybe blacks got Megalonin than Melanin.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
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  2. OT – any thoughts on Nate “Thank Yahweh for Margin of Error” Silver getting, uh, lat-moved to ABC from ESPN?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Nate Silver is pretty good at what he does, but he became rich only because Obama won in 2008 and 2012, so ESPN dumping him is not surprising.
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  3. The best way to “red pill” White ladies (of either sex) would be to recreate the fiasco surrounding the Oscar for Best Picture a while ago. Initially give every award to something our middle class White women looooove(!!) and then turn around and give it to some tiresome bit of Blackness. Just keep doing this, category after category, award show after award show until everyone gets it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    This would result in the opposite of your intended effect. Women are genetically programmed to be extremely impressed by [perceived] status and authority. Among other things, that's why they like award shows so much.
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  4. @MikeatMikedotMike
    OT - any thoughts on Nate "Thank Yahweh for Margin of Error" Silver getting, uh, lat-moved to ABC from ESPN?

    Nate Silver is pretty good at what he does, but he became rich only because Obama won in 2008 and 2012, so ESPN dumping him is not surprising.

    Read More
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  5. so sick of Negroes. Best to ignore them

    Read More
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  6. CCZ says:

    Chateau Heartiste has a post, The Essential Femaleness Of Leftism, with a comment and a CH response that is relevant to one of iSteve’s prolific racial commenters, TD.

    The Spirit Within

    Real men are not afraid of diversity and progressive values.

    What we have on here is a bunch of misogynists who will never find a woman to love them and they lash out.

    No wonder white women prefer Black Men. Who can blame them?

    [CH: this reads like Tiny Duck imported from Steve Sailer’s place]

    Read More
    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    Current year black activism is female normed to an astonishing degree.
    Grown men rolling around in helplessness and claiming that their ''lives are in danger" because white sjws at starbucks want them to leave. Hysterical female black intersectionals claiming to be "fearing for their lives" on college campuses where all the white people automatically defer to them.
    , @interesting
    "Real men are not afraid of diversity and progressive values"

    Whys is this insult always used? I member back when it was "real men are not 'afraid' of a strong woman" .......the "afraid" part is pretty funny. If I don't agree with you then I must be "afraid".

    I've always laughed at that.
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  7. … just how seriously do we have to take it?

    Nobody has to take it at all. Those TVs, they’ve all got a plug.

    This week the unparalleled contributions of black performers were finally recognised by the establishment. Why has it taken so long?

    I don’t know. I’m still waiting for Golden Earring to release their 1990′s hit, their 2000′s hit, and it’s almost time for their 2010′s hit. The deal was one per decade, guys!

    Read More
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  8. Tiny Duck says:
    @Humbles
    Megalomania is about the only thing that blacks uniformly excell at. I'm not saying that facetiously. Have you ever met a black person, male or female, who didn't have extremely high -- some might say excessive-- self-esteem?

    Well, that and impregnating white girls

    The truth is that Black excellence woke up the mainstream. As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy

    You couldn’t guck with this guys swag

    https://www.youtube.com/user/JemelOneFive/videos?disable_polymer=1

    Read More
    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Steve in Greensboro
    Next year in Wakanda!
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    As Jack Soo said to David Janssen on the set of The Green Berets: " Tiny Duck gets more white women than you. "
    , @interesting
    "As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy"

    what do the unusual people of color do?
    , @Colleen Pater
    And another thing tiny dick michael jackson is mediocre in the mediocre category of pop songs. Its the hype that gets them played so much we tap our feet but no ones going to go and put a michael jackson album on the stereo. the lyrics are not even mediocre they high school quality telenovelas. The jackson five were a lot better than michael jackson and they were b act for motown Mj is famous for making a lot of money not for any talent
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. Lot says:

    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual “music.”)

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I’mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I’mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I’mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass ‘em all out on the block, what’s good?

    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don’t want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin’ in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what’s happenin’ nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I’m mad (He mad), but I ain’t stressin’
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin’?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin’ (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin’?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin’ (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him

    From “The Blacker the Berry”

    Six in the mornin’, fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that’s all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin’ you die in vain
    It’s such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin’
    But homie you made me
    Black don’t crack my nigga

    From “Hood Politics”

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you’re from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies

    Read More
    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    For what they are worth, three sentences from near the end of Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning:

    "The great myths of Christianity . . . no longer speak to the majority of Westerners, who regard themselves as educated. . . . It is nonetheless the case that all of Western ethics, including those explicitly formulated in Western law, are predicated upon a mythological worldview, which specifically attributes divine status to the individual. . . . Rejection of moral truth allows for rationalization of cowardly, destructive, degenerate self-indulgence."

    I think Peterson may be on to something.

    , @Dave from Oz
    > "I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo"

    I was listening to a bad chick singer-songwriter play the guitar in a bar the other day. I felt that she should take the chick songwriters challenge: write a song without the words 'I' or 'You'.'
    , @Almost Missouri
    PBS's anchorbiddy (and aspiring GILF, apparently) Judy Woodruff claims she is a longtime fan of this.

    If she is lying, that's bad.

    If she is telling the truth, that's worse.

    There are no other options.

    So she is either lying or depraved. Is there any reason to listen to her?

    This analysis can be applied to most big media.

    , @Anonymous
    This is my favorite line from Kendrick Lamar:

    Bitch where you when I was walkin’?”

    Surprisingly, A search for him in Google brought up some photos where he looked fairly thoughtful and intelligent.
    , @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The "King Kunta" lyrics are pretty clever; it requires knowing about the legend of King Kunta, a black slave who was granted his freedom but then had his legs cut off.

    If you want to pick a bone with hip-hop, Kendrick is not the artist to do it with. I can't help but think a lot of commenters here don't understand art if they're quoting these lyrics out of context and bashing them because they feature expletives and references to things they don't understand. You can't divorce them from music and context.
    , @Gleimhart
    And here I thought that giving a Pulitzer to a negro rapper was a full lip-lock french kiss with trash culture. I stand corrected!
    , @Negrolphin Pool
    "Devil" and its variants are the closest black-slurring-white equivalent to the n-word, with connotations of historic violence like the Zebra murders and other NOI-inspired hate crimes.

    This stuff is like the black version of Moon Man, except not as good. What's the prize that he got called again? Can I get one in the prize claw machine at Denny's?

    , @cosMICjester
    Disgusting garbage. Talentless hacks spewing nursery rhymes. Yet the powers that be want to give awards/reparations to these ignorant mulignan morons. The west is DOOMED.
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  10. A recent NPR broadcast said about the Coachella festival that “only one artist mattered: Beyonce!” Then they played clips of her performing pop songs from more than a decade ago.

    I am continually amazed that wretched propaganda broadcast still has any listeners.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    "When you point your finger
    cause your plans fell through.
    You've got three more fingers
    pointing at you, yeah!"


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RKimf6zYKQ

    What I mean, Mr. Maplethorp, was, weren't you one of these listeners?
    , @ogunsiron
    I've long stopped listening to National Pilpul Radio.
    , @Mr. Blank
    Someone refresh my memory: Wasn’t Coachella founded as another of those “indie” festivals that was supposed to be all about the music, man? Or was it all just a corporate front to showcase superstar talent from the beginning?
    , @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Beyonce has the best PR team in the world, bar none, aided in no small part by the current 'black=good, white=bad' cultural climate foisted upon us by media Jews.

    Beyonce is a real instance of 'the emperor has no clothes'.
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  11. Cato says:
    @Humbles
    Megalomania is about the only thing that blacks uniformly excell at. I'm not saying that facetiously. Have you ever met a black person, male or female, who didn't have extremely high -- some might say excessive-- self-esteem?

    Only you aren’t allowed to say this in public:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/17/satoshi-kanazawa-black-women-less-attractive_n_863327.html

    In the end, Kanazawa had to grovel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    I guarantee, if you put it up to a vote, all non-black groups would, on average, vote black women the least attractive of all ethnic groups in America (worldwide, Pygmies and Ozzy Abos are arguably less attractive but those groups have few if any members in the US). And I imagine a sizeable number of black men would agree.
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  12. PSR says:

    “Work twice as hard?” I’m gonna say that even most American blacks would roll their eyes at that one.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    Nope. It's a common belief among north-american black people to this day. The college admissions and the affirmative action data notwithstanding.
    , @kaganovitch
    I work in a big food service operation in the NYC metro area which is around %50 black. I have heard this expressed dozens of times by blacks. Even those being terminated for their 5th no call no show.
    , @Gleimhart
    Working at all for most black people is a humiliation to their excellence, and qualifies as "working twice as hard."
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  13. Luke Lea says:

    I guess they don’t allow comments over at The Guardian anymore?

    Read More
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  14. Lot says:

    Best article on rap I’ve ever read

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html

    What struck me most, though, was how fully the boys’ music—hard-edged rap, preaching bone-deep dislike of authority—provided them with a continuing soundtrack to their antisocial behavior. So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance. A couple of his buddies would then join him. Rap was a running decoration in their conversation.

    Compare the lyrics from Kendrick Lamar I quoted above with a section of the rap McWhorter identified as the first gangster rap style hit from 1982:

    Broken glass everywhere
    People pissing on the stairs, you know they just don’t care
    I can’t take the smell, I can’t take the noise
    Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
    Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
    Junkies in the alley with the baseball bat
    I tried to get away, but I couldn’t get far
    Cause a man with a tow-truck repossessed my car

    A child is born with no state of mind
    Blind to the ways of mankind
    God is smiling on you but he’s frowning too
    Because only God knows what you’ll go through
    You’ll grow in the ghetto, living second rate
    And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
    The places you’re playin’, where you stay
    Looks like one great big alley way
    You’ll admire all the number book takers
    Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers

    Read More
    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    'Trump change not chump change' will ring in the hood before this is all over with.
    , @ogunsiron

    first gangster rap style hit from 1982:
     
    Another example of how, back then, Blacks and other Fringelings still felt the need to conform to the norms of the Core.
    , @Escher
    This was one of the 1st hip hop hits if I recall correctly. Nothing gangsta about it.
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  15. syonredux says:

    This reality harks back to what so many black children are taught by our parents: that we have to “work twice as hard to earn half as much”.

    Indeed. As everyone knows, top unis like Harvard and Stanford routinely refuse to admit Blacks with top-flight SATs, forcing the poor fellows to attend second-rate institutions instead….

    Read More
    • LOL: Joe Walker
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  16. Luke Lea says:
    @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    For what they are worth, three sentences from near the end of Jordan Peterson’s Maps of Meaning:

    “The great myths of Christianity . . . no longer speak to the majority of Westerners, who regard themselves as educated. . . . It is nonetheless the case that all of Western ethics, including those explicitly formulated in Western law, are predicated upon a mythological worldview, which specifically attributes divine status to the individual. . . . Rejection of moral truth allows for rationalization of cowardly, destructive, degenerate self-indulgence.”

    I think Peterson may be on to something.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    I think Peterson may be on to something.
     
    Agree.
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  17. @Reginald Maplethorp
    A recent NPR broadcast said about the Coachella festival that "only one artist mattered: Beyonce!" Then they played clips of her performing pop songs from more than a decade ago.

    I am continually amazed that wretched propaganda broadcast still has any listeners.

    “When you point your finger
    cause your plans fell through.
    You’ve got three more fingers
    pointing at you, yeah!”

    What I mean, Mr. Maplethorp, was, weren’t you one of these listeners?

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    I love that album (especially "Romeo and Juliet")!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  18. “We wuz kangz, we be kangz, we gonna be kangz 4 evah.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  19. Shaq says:

    So Oprah’s net worth is really $6 billion?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  20. Why not enjoy cheap laughs and toss them an occasional banana?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  21. Luke Lea says:
    @Lot
    Best article on rap I've ever read

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html

    What struck me most, though, was how fully the boys’ music—hard-edged rap, preaching bone-deep dislike of authority—provided them with a continuing soundtrack to their antisocial behavior. So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance. A couple of his buddies would then join him. Rap was a running decoration in their conversation.
     
    Compare the lyrics from Kendrick Lamar I quoted above with a section of the rap McWhorter identified as the first gangster rap style hit from 1982:

    Broken glass everywhere
    People pissing on the stairs, you know they just don't care
    I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise
    Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
    Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
    Junkies in the alley with the baseball bat
    I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far
    Cause a man with a tow-truck repossessed my car

    A child is born with no state of mind
    Blind to the ways of mankind
    God is smiling on you but he's frowning too
    Because only God knows what you'll go through
    You'll grow in the ghetto, living second rate
    And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
    The places you're playin', where you stay
    Looks like one great big alley way
    You'll admire all the number book takers
    Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers
     

    ‘Trump change not chump change’ will ring in the hood before this is all over with.

    Read More
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  22. The United States of America should be renamed to: The Dr. Martin Luther King Jr Country

    North America should be renamed to… Northern Dr. King Land

    Earth should be renamed to … Planet MLK

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bugg
    "Who wrote the Star Spangled banner?" David Chase would be hung today-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvW_2uIBQs
    , @Ragno
    Wouldn't a simple, all-purpose Boolieland work just as well?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  23. @Luke Lea
    For what they are worth, three sentences from near the end of Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning:

    "The great myths of Christianity . . . no longer speak to the majority of Westerners, who regard themselves as educated. . . . It is nonetheless the case that all of Western ethics, including those explicitly formulated in Western law, are predicated upon a mythological worldview, which specifically attributes divine status to the individual. . . . Rejection of moral truth allows for rationalization of cowardly, destructive, degenerate self-indulgence."

    I think Peterson may be on to something.

    I think Peterson may be on to something.

    Agree.

    Read More
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  24. Black megalomania can be pretty entertaining, as African dictator Big Men like Idi Amin have demonstrated, but just how seriously do we have to take it?

    E.L. Doctorow, when he wrote the prize-winning bestseller Ragtime centered it around a black guy who becomes a megalomaniac revenge seeker.

    That was in 1975. I doubt that a book like Ragtime, if written by a White/Jewish guy today, would be accepted for publication.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Do they even publish novels by men anymore? I mean novels other than ones with killer robots on the cover.
    , @International Jew
    The run-up to that character going psycho makes you like him. So even though Doctorow doesn't approve of his eventual excesses, the storyline as a whole wouldn't be too "problematic". Or so I think. If _Ragtime_ is ever tossed onto the bonfire, I think it'll be on account of Doctorow, a white man, presuming to write about the inner life of a black man.
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  25. @PiltdownMan

    Black megalomania can be pretty entertaining, as African dictator Big Men like Idi Amin have demonstrated, but just how seriously do we have to take it?
     
    E.L. Doctorow, when he wrote the prize-winning bestseller Ragtime centered it around a black guy who becomes a megalomaniac revenge seeker.

    That was in 1975. I doubt that a book like Ragtime, if written by a White/Jewish guy today, would be accepted for publication.

    Do they even publish novels by men anymore? I mean novels other than ones with killer robots on the cover.

    Read More
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  26. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Okay, I say let’s give all the blings to blacks. I personally don’t care because I never respected Oscars, Grammies, Golden Globes, Emmies, and even Cannes Palmies.

    Give em all to blacks who just gotta have their bling.

    BUT then… WHICH Negro should get them?

    I mean look at football. It’s all Negroes but they try to kill each other for the ball.

    I recall there’s a scene in AFRICAN QUEEN where Bogart throws away his cigar and a bunch of Negroes pile on to grab it.

    So, give all the blings to Negroes, but Negroes will have to decide which one gets it. It wont’ be pretty.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-security/intruders-storm-nigerian-parliament-and-snatch-mace-senate-spokesman-idUSKBN1HP1J3

    Feed me Seymour, feed me all night long.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mishra
    How the heck can they tell which ones are the thugs??

    I think that's half your problem right there..
    , @J.Ross
    I was just thinking that was a great movie but they wouldn't be able to do the black chorus girls now (or the black-voiced plant). And even though "Somewhere That's Green" actually was a brilliant satirical deconstruction of midcentury consumerism, no pinkhair would grok, they would clamor for some impossible biracial open relationalship.
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  27. @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    > “I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo”

    I was listening to a bad chick singer-songwriter play the guitar in a bar the other day. I felt that she should take the chick songwriters challenge: write a song without the words ‘I’ or ‘You’.’

    Read More
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  28. TheBoom says:

    What interests me are the views of the other member groups in the Coalition of the Fringes on black megalomania. They now go along with this black entitlement because the winning game is scam whitey. Given a supportive media and censorship of almost anything on social media that upsets blacks, blacks keep doubling down on the megalomania. How crazy well this get before Asians and Hispanics start distancing themselves from blacks politically? My cynical answer is that they will tolerate it as long as something is to be gained by scamming whites.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    In a weird way, nonblack pocs engage in black worship to the extent that they're assimilated into what is now a major White worldview. Traditional chinese, arab, turkish, dominican ethnic activists don't engage in black worship because that's just not done in their home culture. USA born and bred college brainwashed chinese, arab, palestinian, turkish intersectional activists ? I've seen many instances of such people in full agreement that blacks rank higher than they do.
    , @Tiny Duck
    Hate to break it to you but People of Color will not be deterred by white shenanigans and will stand together as one against white supremacy
    , @Thea
    You mean Hispanics like ones who decal their surnames on their windshields? I think they have no problem with megalomania.
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  29. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    The more the culture becomes primitivized and simplified, the more blackness will be the standard.

    Opera used to be the favored music of respectable folk.

    Now, its Rapera with HAMILTON. Some say rap is poetry.

    And of course, babytalk becomes genius literature. The Nasty Coates.

    And college debating prizes go to howlers of jive.

    Blacks are like children who get all miffed if they don’t get the prizes.

    Winter Olympian got all upset cuz he didn’t get to carry the flag.

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he’s Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin’.

    Maybe, we should come up with New Prizes:

    Annual Awards for

    Black Magnificence
    Black Holiness
    Black Profundity
    Black Originality (Who invented ‘twerking’?)
    Black Awesomeness
    Black Tremendousness
    Blackity Blackness

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kylie
    "The more the culture becomes primitivized and simplified, the more blackness will be the standard."

    I think the arrow of causation points the opposite way.
    , @El Dato

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he’s Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin’.
     
    Hillary was actually a black presidental contenderess?
    , @TheJester
    Money devolves to its lowest common denominator. So does culture.

    Perhaps the dye was cast on the debasement of American culture (from its European roots) when integration came to mean "Blacks" and "Whites" would meet somewhere in the middle. Diversity (driven by SJWs) means that all cultures are equal ... so, diversity (driven by SJWs) requires cultural miscegenation, does it not?

    To make this happen, it followed that white girls would corn-row their hair and pierce their ears, noses, and tongues. White youth found easy reasons to give into impulsive behaviors, including reckless sexual promiscuity. Courting degenerated into hookups; dance degenerated into twerking, and society no longer found it antisocial for women to have children out of wedlock or for a woman to have five children by five different men.

    As the black "plantation" mentality spread, ever larger numbers of ethnicities and social strata sought social and economic equality with blacks through intersectional "victimization" on the part of the White Male Patriarchy. This qualified them for black-derived social and economic privileges and outright government handouts.

    But the plan did not work. We did not "meet in the middle". We became like them; they did not become like us. They were not elevated; we were debased. The politically-incorrect question that can't be asked is, "Why?"

    P.S. I've often thought that feminism was nothing but a "Back-to-Africa" movement on the part of white women. Perhaps the same can be said for our entire culture.
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  30. ogunsiron says:
    @CCZ
    Chateau Heartiste has a post, The Essential Femaleness Of Leftism, with a comment and a CH response that is relevant to one of iSteve's prolific racial commenters, TD.

    The Spirit Within

    Real men are not afraid of diversity and progressive values.

    What we have on here is a bunch of misogynists who will never find a woman to love them and they lash out.

    No wonder white women prefer Black Men. Who can blame them?

    [CH: this reads like Tiny Duck imported from Steve Sailer’s place]

     

    Current year black activism is female normed to an astonishing degree.
    Grown men rolling around in helplessness and claiming that their ”lives are in danger” because white sjws at starbucks want them to leave. Hysterical female black intersectionals claiming to be “fearing for their lives” on college campuses where all the white people automatically defer to them.

    Read More
    • Agree: Tyrion 2
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Well said. When the Starbucks dindus said they "feared for their lives" from the polite bicycle cops, they surprised even me with their shamelessness. There is no limit to dindu dishonesty.
    , @Anonymous

    Hysterical female black intersectionals claiming to be “fearing for their lives” on college campuses where all the white people automatically defer to them.
     
    This is calculated. It's a way of gaming speech codes at various academic institutions, which usually uphold the right to freedom of speech, but also have a caveat that you're not allowed to threaten people.

    You can't shut people up because they offend you, but you can shut them up for threatening you, therefore all offensive speech is claimed to be threatening speech.
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  31. ogunsiron says:
    @Reginald Maplethorp
    A recent NPR broadcast said about the Coachella festival that "only one artist mattered: Beyonce!" Then they played clips of her performing pop songs from more than a decade ago.

    I am continually amazed that wretched propaganda broadcast still has any listeners.

    I’ve long stopped listening to National Pilpul Radio.

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  32. Mr. Blank says:
    @Reginald Maplethorp
    A recent NPR broadcast said about the Coachella festival that "only one artist mattered: Beyonce!" Then they played clips of her performing pop songs from more than a decade ago.

    I am continually amazed that wretched propaganda broadcast still has any listeners.

    Someone refresh my memory: Wasn’t Coachella founded as another of those “indie” festivals that was supposed to be all about the music, man? Or was it all just a corporate front to showcase superstar talent from the beginning?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    Last chance for the 30+ ole girls to wear their 'slutty hippie' outfits.
    , @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    It used to be that way. Madonna was the first 'huge' artist to perform there in 2006, but she performed a short set in the dance tent, not on the main stage (it was still packed to the rafters and all the other people performing at the same time had almost no one see them because all the hipsters had flocked to Madonna. This was during her 'Confessions on a Dancefloor' era when she was suddenly cool again for a quick second). Since then it's become more and more commercial. Lady Gaga headlined last year.
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  33. ogunsiron says:
    @PSR
    "Work twice as hard?" I'm gonna say that even most American blacks would roll their eyes at that one.

    Nope. It’s a common belief among north-american black people to this day. The college admissions and the affirmative action data notwithstanding.

    Read More
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  34. ogunsiron says:
    @Lot
    Best article on rap I've ever read

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html

    What struck me most, though, was how fully the boys’ music—hard-edged rap, preaching bone-deep dislike of authority—provided them with a continuing soundtrack to their antisocial behavior. So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance. A couple of his buddies would then join him. Rap was a running decoration in their conversation.
     
    Compare the lyrics from Kendrick Lamar I quoted above with a section of the rap McWhorter identified as the first gangster rap style hit from 1982:

    Broken glass everywhere
    People pissing on the stairs, you know they just don't care
    I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise
    Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
    Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
    Junkies in the alley with the baseball bat
    I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far
    Cause a man with a tow-truck repossessed my car

    A child is born with no state of mind
    Blind to the ways of mankind
    God is smiling on you but he's frowning too
    Because only God knows what you'll go through
    You'll grow in the ghetto, living second rate
    And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
    The places you're playin', where you stay
    Looks like one great big alley way
    You'll admire all the number book takers
    Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers
     

    first gangster rap style hit from 1982:

    Another example of how, back then, Blacks and other Fringelings still felt the need to conform to the norms of the Core.

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  35. @PiltdownMan

    Black megalomania can be pretty entertaining, as African dictator Big Men like Idi Amin have demonstrated, but just how seriously do we have to take it?
     
    E.L. Doctorow, when he wrote the prize-winning bestseller Ragtime centered it around a black guy who becomes a megalomaniac revenge seeker.

    That was in 1975. I doubt that a book like Ragtime, if written by a White/Jewish guy today, would be accepted for publication.

    The run-up to that character going psycho makes you like him. So even though Doctorow doesn’t approve of his eventual excesses, the storyline as a whole wouldn’t be too “problematic”. Or so I think. If _Ragtime_ is ever tossed onto the bonfire, I think it’ll be on account of Doctorow, a white man, presuming to write about the inner life of a black man.

    Read More
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  36. ogunsiron says:
    @TheBoom
    What interests me are the views of the other member groups in the Coalition of the Fringes on black megalomania. They now go along with this black entitlement because the winning game is scam whitey. Given a supportive media and censorship of almost anything on social media that upsets blacks, blacks keep doubling down on the megalomania. How crazy well this get before Asians and Hispanics start distancing themselves from blacks politically? My cynical answer is that they will tolerate it as long as something is to be gained by scamming whites.

    In a weird way, nonblack pocs engage in black worship to the extent that they’re assimilated into what is now a major White worldview. Traditional chinese, arab, turkish, dominican ethnic activists don’t engage in black worship because that’s just not done in their home culture. USA born and bred college brainwashed chinese, arab, palestinian, turkish intersectional activists ? I’ve seen many instances of such people in full agreement that blacks rank higher than they do.

    Read More
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  37. Actually, what they are being taught is that you don’t need to work at all to earn half as much.

    Read More
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  38. AndrewR says:
    @Cato
    Only you aren't allowed to say this in public:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/17/satoshi-kanazawa-black-women-less-attractive_n_863327.html

    In the end, Kanazawa had to grovel.

    I guarantee, if you put it up to a vote, all non-black groups would, on average, vote black women the least attractive of all ethnic groups in America (worldwide, Pygmies and Ozzy Abos are arguably less attractive but those groups have few if any members in the US). And I imagine a sizeable number of black men would agree.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    I had a Black woman tell me where I used to work that African men consider White females to be the best looking of all.
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  39. Tiny Duck says:
    @TheBoom
    What interests me are the views of the other member groups in the Coalition of the Fringes on black megalomania. They now go along with this black entitlement because the winning game is scam whitey. Given a supportive media and censorship of almost anything on social media that upsets blacks, blacks keep doubling down on the megalomania. How crazy well this get before Asians and Hispanics start distancing themselves from blacks politically? My cynical answer is that they will tolerate it as long as something is to be gained by scamming whites.

    Hate to break it to you but People of Color will not be deterred by white shenanigans and will stand together as one against white supremacy

    Read More
    • Replies: @interesting
    "and will stand together as one"


    Couldn't agree more, look to Chicago, Baltimore and Detroit for perfect examples of black unity......finally, Tiny Dick and I agree.....

    , @Gleimhart
    Hate to break it to you, but "People of color™" (a silly term) would still be wiping their ass with banana leaves, living in mud huts, and sitting around the goat dung fire picking fleas out of their beard without White people.
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  40. @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    PBS’s anchorbiddy (and aspiring GILF, apparently) Judy Woodruff claims she is a longtime fan of this.

    If she is lying, that’s bad.

    If she is telling the truth, that’s worse.

    There are no other options.

    So she is either lying or depraved. Is there any reason to listen to her?

    This analysis can be applied to most big media.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I had to stop at GILF to LOL for a bit!
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  41. Whiskey says: • Website

    The ethnic cleansing and genocide of White people in South Africa should prove enlightening on Black/African megalomania. And just how far it will be taken.

    Black people generally value social power and dominance more than wealth. Look at all the effort and behavior Black people put into dominance and social power, and how little they put into becoming wealthy. This is fairly shrewd, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, The Nehi Coates, Louis Farrakhan, and Deroy McKesson all have more power and influence than Mark Zuckerberg. Zuck is criticized throughout the media, when was the last time even Farrakhan was criticized over his very, very anti-Semitic views and utterances?

    Barack Obama met extensively with Farrakhan and nary a peep about it, Farrakhan’s views on Jews makes say Richard Spencer look like a member of the ADL.

    So Blacks wherever they are around White people are going to demand greater and greater White groveling and more and more legal and social privileges over Whites, particularly White men. As the social payoffs are immense. Essentially Black people are like the Medieval Nobility, exempt from great portions of law and custom, and able to go around beating and robbing the peasants at will. Save there is no “Peace and Truce of God” movement. [Pushed by Kings, Popes, and Bishops to get the nobility to lay off robbing, beating, and killing peasants who after all paid taxes whereas the nobility mostly did not.]

    It is not just Blacks win all the prizes, it is that every Black gets to lord it over every White man, and half of Africa will be coming here and the example of Black whip hand over the White man in South Africa (basically another Holocaust) will be … too big and ugly to ignore.

    It is the birth of the eternal Frontier, everywhere, all the time. With the cavalry … coming to the aid of the marauding Indians. The Next Urban Riots, the National Guard will be called in to … disarm the South Korean Shopowners and allow the looting, arson, murder, etc. to continue unimpeded by racist self-defense.

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  42. anonymous[411] • Disclaimer says:

    Seriously, has anyone ever met a black who actually worked “twice as hard” as anyone else? You’re more likely to spot a unicorn than that. The delusional thinking of blacks can be surprising to those who haven’t been around them very much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The best black athletes tend to be exceptionally hard workers. That's what separates them from the merely talented. Ask someone who's trained with Floyd Mayweather.

    Same applies to music. Quincy Jones thinks The Beatles were pikers because he never would have put up with people being so sloppy as a live band.


    Michael Jordans brother was a highly respected sergeant major; I'm guessing he also knew something about hard work and demanding it.



    ...so yeah, we've met some black people who work hard. Also in sales, small business, factories....many fields where plenty of blacks make their reputations with hard work.
    , @Anonymous

    Seriously, has anyone ever met a black who actually worked “twice as hard” as anyone else? You’re more likely to spot a unicorn than that. The delusional thinking of blacks can be surprising to those who haven’t been around them very much.
     
    I've known blacks that worked very hard and blacks that worked smart. Not too many do both. (And of course, the typical underclass black male does neither.)

    Few whites either, but the proportion is a lot higher.
    , @Bill in Tokyo
    One of the hardest working men I ever met was a black man going on 60. He worked in the basement of a wine store on Madison Ave. in the cellar. He climbed up and down shelves to get bottles and worked an elevator by hand with a rope. It was a busy store.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    Back in the 30s/40s/50s (when there were hardly any black people in the UK), to "work like a black" meant to work extremely hard.

    No idea where it came from, possibly a legacy of slavery but unlikely, as most Brits, even in c17th/18th/19th, had zero first hand contact with slavery.

    If I had a guess, it would come from merchant and Navy crews, watching the local stevedores loading and unloading in the heat of the West African coast. British ships carried a huge amount of world trade in the hundred years before WW2.

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  43. bgates says:

    Isn’t it time they started writing it BYNC?

    Anyway, the fact that this Marshell person can write a column without noting the searing injustice that the Foxxy Cleopatra character from Austin Powers hasn’t gotten ten movies made and a theme park built for her, makes me think there are depths of #wokeness that haven’t been plumbed.

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  44. Anonymous[284] • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t know why blacks (or libs) decided they needed to culturally appropriate Coachella, traditionally a safe space for White Bodies–founded by, curated by, patronized by, featuring, etc. White Bodies.

    Part of what’s sad about this is that black people deserve to have something in which they can take pride (“For Us By Us,” as they’ve said) and popular music is an arena in which there’s no reason they shouldn’t be able to create a “space.” Dave Chappelle, for example, made a little movie about putting on a black musical festival.

    Right. I don’t think these things need to be in competition. Dave Chappelle’s Block Party served a different cultural niche than Coachella, desert party for bourgeois white dorks enjoying bourgeois white bands. There’s no conflict there, you don’t have to choose or prefer one over the other.

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  45. D. K. says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    "When you point your finger
    cause your plans fell through.
    You've got three more fingers
    pointing at you, yeah!"


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RKimf6zYKQ

    What I mean, Mr. Maplethorp, was, weren't you one of these listeners?

    I love that album (especially “Romeo and Juliet”)!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I like that, but Skateaway is my favorite off of Making Movies
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  46. Anonymous[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Seriously, has anyone ever met a black who actually worked "twice as hard" as anyone else? You're more likely to spot a unicorn than that. The delusional thinking of blacks can be surprising to those who haven't been around them very much.

    The best black athletes tend to be exceptionally hard workers. That’s what separates them from the merely talented. Ask someone who’s trained with Floyd Mayweather.

    Same applies to music. Quincy Jones thinks The Beatles were pikers because he never would have put up with people being so sloppy as a live band.

    Michael Jordans brother was a highly respected sergeant major; I’m guessing he also knew something about hard work and demanding it.

    …so yeah, we’ve met some black people who work hard. Also in sales, small business, factories….many fields where plenty of blacks make their reputations with hard work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mishra
    Totally agree. There have been dozens upon dozens of black people who worked hard at their jobs, and it's incumbent upon us to recognize and celebrate them.
    , @Gleimhart
    Taking advantage of Affirmative Action = hard work.

    Haha, okay.
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  47. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    This is my favorite line from Kendrick Lamar:

    Bitch where you when I was walkin’?”

    Surprisingly, A search for him in Google brought up some photos where he looked fairly thoughtful and intelligent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What about that would be surprising?

    He's generally considered the best rapper of his generation; whether or not you enjoy listening to rap it is an objective fact that it's extremely competitive and millions wish they were their generations most celebrated rapper
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  48. Mishra says:
    @Anon
    Okay, I say let's give all the blings to blacks. I personally don't care because I never respected Oscars, Grammies, Golden Globes, Emmies, and even Cannes Palmies.

    Give em all to blacks who just gotta have their bling.

    BUT then... WHICH Negro should get them?

    I mean look at football. It's all Negroes but they try to kill each other for the ball.

    I recall there's a scene in AFRICAN QUEEN where Bogart throws away his cigar and a bunch of Negroes pile on to grab it.

    So, give all the blings to Negroes, but Negroes will have to decide which one gets it. It wont' be pretty.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-security/intruders-storm-nigerian-parliament-and-snatch-mace-senate-spokesman-idUSKBN1HP1J3

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OStFIHPD42w

    Feed me Seymour, feed me all night long.

    How the heck can they tell which ones are the thugs??

    I think that’s half your problem right there..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    These guys are amateurs. They just grab and run.

    The real pro was the guy who not only joined the melee but did a slick spin.

    https://youtu.be/ob6L0yPP0TE?t=10s
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  49. Mishra says:
    @Anonymous
    The best black athletes tend to be exceptionally hard workers. That's what separates them from the merely talented. Ask someone who's trained with Floyd Mayweather.

    Same applies to music. Quincy Jones thinks The Beatles were pikers because he never would have put up with people being so sloppy as a live band.


    Michael Jordans brother was a highly respected sergeant major; I'm guessing he also knew something about hard work and demanding it.



    ...so yeah, we've met some black people who work hard. Also in sales, small business, factories....many fields where plenty of blacks make their reputations with hard work.

    Totally agree. There have been dozens upon dozens of black people who worked hard at their jobs, and it’s incumbent upon us to recognize and celebrate them.

    Read More
    • LOL: AndrewR, BenKenobi
    • Replies: @interesting
    Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele to name a few.
    , @BenKenobi
    I like you, Mishra.

    Do you have a brother named Urza?
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  50. snorlax says:
    @Cagey Beast
    The best way to "red pill" White ladies (of either sex) would be to recreate the fiasco surrounding the Oscar for Best Picture a while ago. Initially give every award to something our middle class White women looooove(!!) and then turn around and give it to some tiresome bit of Blackness. Just keep doing this, category after category, award show after award show until everyone gets it.

    This would result in the opposite of your intended effect. Women are genetically programmed to be extremely impressed by [perceived] status and authority. Among other things, that’s why they like award shows so much.

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  51. Compy says:

    This reality harks back to what so many black children are taught by our parents: that we have to “work twice as hard to earn half as much”.

    Very few blacks are taught jack shit by their parents. That’s a major reason why blacks are over represented in our prison population.

    A good start would be revising the quoted phrase to, “we have to work twice as hard to be adequate,” as a majority of public school teachers will readily attest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Very few blacks are taught jack shit by their parents.
     
    Very few black kids have both parents. Black boys will get taught stuff by their Moms, but that's mostly not what they need.
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  52. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:

    [Beyonce] is the most beloved artist on the face of the planet

    Says who?? I have never listened to more than ten seconds of her music, and I bear her no particular ill will personally or professionally. But if she’s on the station changes. If Madonna is on the radio, even though I have never bought a Madonna album, I’ll usually listen to the song, because they are well crafted.

    “Beloved” is an adjective that I would apply to few female artists in particular, but Beyonce is not one.
    Edith Piaf, Judy and Liza to gays, perhaps Emmylou Harris.

    Beyonce is just mildly annoying.

    Read More
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  53. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Seriously, has anyone ever met a black who actually worked "twice as hard" as anyone else? You're more likely to spot a unicorn than that. The delusional thinking of blacks can be surprising to those who haven't been around them very much.

    Seriously, has anyone ever met a black who actually worked “twice as hard” as anyone else? You’re more likely to spot a unicorn than that. The delusional thinking of blacks can be surprising to those who haven’t been around them very much.

    I’ve known blacks that worked very hard and blacks that worked smart. Not too many do both. (And of course, the typical underclass black male does neither.)

    Few whites either, but the proportion is a lot higher.

    Read More
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  54. Anonymous[871] • Disclaimer says:

    Maybe God – if he exists – works in mysterious ways:

    Read More
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  55. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Anon
    Okay, I say let's give all the blings to blacks. I personally don't care because I never respected Oscars, Grammies, Golden Globes, Emmies, and even Cannes Palmies.

    Give em all to blacks who just gotta have their bling.

    BUT then... WHICH Negro should get them?

    I mean look at football. It's all Negroes but they try to kill each other for the ball.

    I recall there's a scene in AFRICAN QUEEN where Bogart throws away his cigar and a bunch of Negroes pile on to grab it.

    So, give all the blings to Negroes, but Negroes will have to decide which one gets it. It wont' be pretty.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-security/intruders-storm-nigerian-parliament-and-snatch-mace-senate-spokesman-idUSKBN1HP1J3

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OStFIHPD42w

    Feed me Seymour, feed me all night long.

    I was just thinking that was a great movie but they wouldn’t be able to do the black chorus girls now (or the black-voiced plant). And even though “Somewhere That’s Green” actually was a brilliant satirical deconstruction of midcentury consumerism, no pinkhair would grok, they would clamor for some impossible biracial open relationalship.

    Read More
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  56. Kylie says:
    @Anon
    The more the culture becomes primitivized and simplified, the more blackness will be the standard.

    Opera used to be the favored music of respectable folk.

    Now, its Rapera with HAMILTON. Some say rap is poetry.

    And of course, babytalk becomes genius literature. The Nasty Coates.

    And college debating prizes go to howlers of jive.

    Blacks are like children who get all miffed if they don't get the prizes.

    Winter Olympian got all upset cuz he didn't get to carry the flag.

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he's Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin'.

    Maybe, we should come up with New Prizes:

    Annual Awards for

    Black Magnificence
    Black Holiness
    Black Profundity
    Black Originality (Who invented 'twerking'?)
    Black Awesomeness
    Black Tremendousness
    Blackity Blackness

    “The more the culture becomes primitivized and simplified, the more blackness will be the standard.”

    I think the arrow of causation points the opposite way.

    Read More
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  57. El Dato says:
    @Anon
    The more the culture becomes primitivized and simplified, the more blackness will be the standard.

    Opera used to be the favored music of respectable folk.

    Now, its Rapera with HAMILTON. Some say rap is poetry.

    And of course, babytalk becomes genius literature. The Nasty Coates.

    And college debating prizes go to howlers of jive.

    Blacks are like children who get all miffed if they don't get the prizes.

    Winter Olympian got all upset cuz he didn't get to carry the flag.

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he's Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin'.

    Maybe, we should come up with New Prizes:

    Annual Awards for

    Black Magnificence
    Black Holiness
    Black Profundity
    Black Originality (Who invented 'twerking'?)
    Black Awesomeness
    Black Tremendousness
    Blackity Blackness

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he’s Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin’.

    Hillary was actually a black presidental contenderess?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    She's been passing as one for a long time, so I guess ... Yes!
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Hillary was actually a black presidental contenderess?

     

    Defending a rapist husband isn't that different from defending a rapist son.
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  58. @anonymous
    Seriously, has anyone ever met a black who actually worked "twice as hard" as anyone else? You're more likely to spot a unicorn than that. The delusional thinking of blacks can be surprising to those who haven't been around them very much.

    One of the hardest working men I ever met was a black man going on 60. He worked in the basement of a wine store on Madison Ave. in the cellar. He climbed up and down shelves to get bottles and worked an elevator by hand with a rope. It was a busy store.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    A black person doing something useful. Such a fascinating story!
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  59. J1234 says:

    [Beyonce] is the most beloved artist on the face of the planet,

    That’s a fact. There are charts and statistics on belovedness that prove it.

    What black influence has done over the last 100 years, generally speaking, is to gradually move the emphasis away from composition in popular music towards performance. (The recording industry also played a part in that, too, though.) Why didn’t the Beatles and Led Zeppelin and Creedence Clearwater Revival dance during gigs in the 1960′s? Because that’s what the Temptations did. White bands of the era were more about new musical horizons.

    To be fair, black musicians accomplished amazing things during the 20th century, often demonstrating true genius (despite what some IQ obsessed white advocates say), but even when armed with musical genius, the black mind seems to place style over substance. That’s why Ella Fitzgerald can make Old MacDonald a jazz standard. This style oriented mindset has leeched over into non-artistic endeavors. Court cases can be won with phrases like, “if it doesn’t fit, you must acquit.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles

    despite what some IQ obsessed white advocates say
     
    I'd say blacks overperform on musical and verbal ability when one considers their IQ. They clearly love both. I bear them no ill will for it.
    , @Gleimhart
    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I'd definitely be one to know. There have been some talented black performers, but that's about it.
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  60. Tyrion 2 says:

    There’s a reason Kanye West ran up to a different award stage, at the Video Music awards in 2009, to snatch the microphone from Taylor Swift to deem Beyoncé’s Single Ladies “one of the best videos of all time”– because mainstream institutions rarely give black artists their due. You can hold your breath waiting on that recognition; or you can take matters – and mics – into your own hands.

    Hang on…that nonsense was about the music video? Shouldn’t the Director get the recognition?

    His Dad was Mexican too.

    http://ethnicelebs.com/jake-nava

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  61. Tyrion 2 says:

    I was told a “joke” by a black South African.

    It went:

    “what is the longest movie?”

    I don’t know

    “Lord of the Rings”

    Why?

    “Because there were no black people to do all of the work.”

    My other friend full of PC obeisance told him how bright and funny he was. I removed myself from the conversation.

    All I can add is that when people use terms like ‘black excellence’ or make ‘jokes’ like the above, they are not exactly convinced themselves but they are trying to see if you can be convinced to provide proof of whatever it is that they would like to believe.

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  62. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Mishra
    How the heck can they tell which ones are the thugs??

    I think that's half your problem right there..

    These guys are amateurs. They just grab and run.

    The real pro was the guy who not only joined the melee but did a slick spin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    The guy at :28 seconds that effortlessly catches the thrown chair is pretty good too. I wish our Congress was like this. I'd have more respect for Paul Ryan, etc if he went all Jackie Chan on someone.
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  63. @anonymous
    Seriously, has anyone ever met a black who actually worked "twice as hard" as anyone else? You're more likely to spot a unicorn than that. The delusional thinking of blacks can be surprising to those who haven't been around them very much.

    Back in the 30s/40s/50s (when there were hardly any black people in the UK), to “work like a black” meant to work extremely hard.

    No idea where it came from, possibly a legacy of slavery but unlikely, as most Brits, even in c17th/18th/19th, had zero first hand contact with slavery.

    If I had a guess, it would come from merchant and Navy crews, watching the local stevedores loading and unloading in the heat of the West African coast. British ships carried a huge amount of world trade in the hundred years before WW2.

    Read More
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  64. I don’t take this crap seriously at all.

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  65. @Tiny Duck
    Well, that and impregnating white girls

    The truth is that Black excellence woke up the mainstream. As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy

    You couldn't guck with this guys swag

    https://www.youtube.com/user/JemelOneFive/videos?disable_polymer=1

    Next year in Wakanda!

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  66. “Black megalomania can be pretty entertaining, as African dictator Big Men like Idi Amin have demonstrated, but just how seriously do we have to take it?”

    I like the scene from Wrath of Khan, where Khan tells Kirk he has deprived him of his ship and intends to momentarily deprive him of his life.

    We should take it all very seriously, because having deprived us of our prizes and other things, just
    like South Africa, they will eventually get around to depriving us of our lives.

    Read More
    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @It's All Ball Bearings
    How did that work out for Khan?
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  67. AndrewR says:
    @ogunsiron
    Current year black activism is female normed to an astonishing degree.
    Grown men rolling around in helplessness and claiming that their ''lives are in danger" because white sjws at starbucks want them to leave. Hysterical female black intersectionals claiming to be "fearing for their lives" on college campuses where all the white people automatically defer to them.

    Well said. When the Starbucks dindus said they “feared for their lives” from the polite bicycle cops, they surprised even me with their shamelessness. There is no limit to dindu dishonesty.

    Read More
    • Replies: @candid_observer
    They "feared for their lives", but refused to leave when these same cops asked them politely to do so?
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  68. Anonymous[348] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    This is my favorite line from Kendrick Lamar:

    Bitch where you when I was walkin’?”

    Surprisingly, A search for him in Google brought up some photos where he looked fairly thoughtful and intelligent.

    What about that would be surprising?

    He’s generally considered the best rapper of his generation; whether or not you enjoy listening to rap it is an objective fact that it’s extremely competitive and millions wish they were their generations most celebrated rapper

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I would think the writing of an intelligent, thoughtful person would reflect those qualities. Perhaps they are hidden in his lyrics, but I failed to notice them. Then again, I didn’t spend a lot of time or effort reading them. However, given that he won the Pulitzer Prize, it’s not surprising he’d look and probably be reasonably intelligent and thoughtful.
    , @Gleimhart
    Being considered "the best rapper of your generation" is every bit as meaningful as being considered "the best spewer of tasteless degenerate crap of your generation.
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  69. @Almost Missouri
    PBS's anchorbiddy (and aspiring GILF, apparently) Judy Woodruff claims she is a longtime fan of this.

    If she is lying, that's bad.

    If she is telling the truth, that's worse.

    There are no other options.

    So she is either lying or depraved. Is there any reason to listen to her?

    This analysis can be applied to most big media.

    I had to stop at GILF to LOL for a bit!

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  70. Astorian says:

    I stopped watching the Grammy awards over 30 years ago, once it became obvious nothing I liked ever had a chance of winning. Rock and roll just didn’t win, ever!

    But just off the top of my head, I can think of loads of black artists who’ve won the Grammy for Best Album: Stevie Wonder (often!), Michael Jackson, Lionel Richie, Quincy Jones, Lauryn Hill, Whitney Houston, Ray Charles, OutKast, Herbie Hancock, Natalie Cole… just where did anyone get the idea that black artists “never” win the major Grammies? They win all the time!

    OutKast has more Best Album Grammies than Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones, the Who, the Byrds, the Beach Boys and Pink Floyd combined! Of course, in fairness, so does Christopher Cross.

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  71. Pericles says:
    @Mr. Blank
    Someone refresh my memory: Wasn’t Coachella founded as another of those “indie” festivals that was supposed to be all about the music, man? Or was it all just a corporate front to showcase superstar talent from the beginning?

    Last chance for the 30+ ole girls to wear their ‘slutty hippie’ outfits.

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  72. “but just how seriously do we have to take it?”

    You’re trolling us.

    We have to take it seriously when it drags down standards in the classical arts. It’s already infecting ballet, which no one here cares about, but it will invade symphony orchestras, which I hope some people here care about.

    And when bridges start falling down, and hospitals can’t schedule operating rooms properly. (A black scheduler once messed up my operation, luckily not for open heart surgery, but still.)

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  73. Pericles says:
    @El Dato

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he’s Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin’.
     
    Hillary was actually a black presidental contenderess?

    She’s been passing as one for a long time, so I guess … Yes!

    Read More
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  74. Pericles says:
    @J1234

    [Beyonce] is the most beloved artist on the face of the planet,
     
    That's a fact. There are charts and statistics on belovedness that prove it.

    What black influence has done over the last 100 years, generally speaking, is to gradually move the emphasis away from composition in popular music towards performance. (The recording industry also played a part in that, too, though.) Why didn't the Beatles and Led Zeppelin and Creedence Clearwater Revival dance during gigs in the 1960's? Because that's what the Temptations did. White bands of the era were more about new musical horizons.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK867ovW7AQ

    To be fair, black musicians accomplished amazing things during the 20th century, often demonstrating true genius (despite what some IQ obsessed white advocates say), but even when armed with musical genius, the black mind seems to place style over substance. That's why Ella Fitzgerald can make Old MacDonald a jazz standard. This style oriented mindset has leeched over into non-artistic endeavors. Court cases can be won with phrases like, "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Fmwgf0NRA

    despite what some IQ obsessed white advocates say

    I’d say blacks overperform on musical and verbal ability when one considers their IQ. They clearly love both. I bear them no ill will for it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    Blacks enjoy the exhibitionistic aspect of performing, but there is a hard ceiling of talent beyond which none have ever gone, but which countless Whites have.
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  75. Thirdtwin says:

    “…work twice as hard…”

    It’s amazing how much effort some people put into drug-dealing, welfare fraud, insurance fraud, unemployment benefits fraud and shoplifting, when the risk is high and the rewards are not guaranteed. Just half of that effort put into legitimate enterprises would yield substantial rewards and priceless peace of mind. But that would be boring and unsexy, I guess. Not to mention the damper it would put on creative inspiration.

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  76. Thea says:
    @TheBoom
    What interests me are the views of the other member groups in the Coalition of the Fringes on black megalomania. They now go along with this black entitlement because the winning game is scam whitey. Given a supportive media and censorship of almost anything on social media that upsets blacks, blacks keep doubling down on the megalomania. How crazy well this get before Asians and Hispanics start distancing themselves from blacks politically? My cynical answer is that they will tolerate it as long as something is to be gained by scamming whites.

    You mean Hispanics like ones who decal their surnames on their windshields? I think they have no problem with megalomania.

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  77. Escher says:
    @Lot
    Best article on rap I've ever read

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html

    What struck me most, though, was how fully the boys’ music—hard-edged rap, preaching bone-deep dislike of authority—provided them with a continuing soundtrack to their antisocial behavior. So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance. A couple of his buddies would then join him. Rap was a running decoration in their conversation.
     
    Compare the lyrics from Kendrick Lamar I quoted above with a section of the rap McWhorter identified as the first gangster rap style hit from 1982:

    Broken glass everywhere
    People pissing on the stairs, you know they just don't care
    I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise
    Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
    Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
    Junkies in the alley with the baseball bat
    I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far
    Cause a man with a tow-truck repossessed my car

    A child is born with no state of mind
    Blind to the ways of mankind
    God is smiling on you but he's frowning too
    Because only God knows what you'll go through
    You'll grow in the ghetto, living second rate
    And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
    The places you're playin', where you stay
    Looks like one great big alley way
    You'll admire all the number book takers
    Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers
     

    This was one of the 1st hip hop hits if I recall correctly. Nothing gangsta about it.

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  78. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    What about that would be surprising?

    He's generally considered the best rapper of his generation; whether or not you enjoy listening to rap it is an objective fact that it's extremely competitive and millions wish they were their generations most celebrated rapper

    I would think the writing of an intelligent, thoughtful person would reflect those qualities. Perhaps they are hidden in his lyrics, but I failed to notice them. Then again, I didn’t spend a lot of time or effort reading them. However, given that he won the Pulitzer Prize, it’s not surprising he’d look and probably be reasonably intelligent and thoughtful.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Ok, well, I'm not just trying to be contrarian.

    I'm being quite serious--theres an extremely competitive market for "best rapper" so, yes, I honestly think you should assume you're missing something in light of that fact.

    Before anyone straw mans, no, Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer were never considered serious rappers by fans of the medium.


    I'm not sure why this particular subject is so difficult for isteve commenters to see objectively--maybe just because they dislike the importance of rap (a perfectly reasonable opinion).

    But...I've seen more than one person say they could do what Jay-Z and Eminem do, it's just "nursery rhymes", etc. Well, no, you can't do what Eminem does and the couplet you posted does not compare to why Eminem is respected as a great rapper.


    Imagine there were some weird Bulgarian village dance culture--ok, everyone dresses up in medieval garb and there's some competitive aspect it. Now I might not know anything about this weird Bulgarian culture and I might think, "It all looks the same." But if every single person within the Bulgarian dance culture had a deep conception of who was the best and why then yeah, I'd assume there's something going on that I'm not aware of.


    So, for example, here are two VERY famous rappers who have clearly thought hard about Eminem being better than them. If there's nothing to rap, how could these people who sell millions of records sound like it kills them they aren't as good?

    "you notice in hip-hop, Eminem is the only rapper that, that nobody ever wants a problem with, including myself man. Eminem is like the most lyrically insane, even when I was going at 50, and you know and you know me and Dre wasn’t seeing eye to eye, man, I stayed away from the white dude, you know because he a problem, you know what I’m saying I understand it, you know I’m saying like Eminem I don’t think there’s a rapper he won’t slay in and you don’t even want to war with Eminem, you know he crazy.
    [Reporter:]

    He was talking about how he was going to pick fight, if he were to come at you…
    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Yeah.

    [Reporter:]
    With like an industry beef, what would you have done?

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Run.

    [Reporter:]
    For real.

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:] Source: LYBIO.net
    Yeah Eminem is [crazy] – you don’t want, you don’t understand- I am a hip-hop artist and I am one of the biggest ones in the world, you don’t want a beef with Eminem – he shreds, he shreds MC’s like for real, and I ain’t his best friend or nothing – I’m just saying, I understand that he, you know he can’t be seen by nobody, Jay know everybody know, you don’t mess with the white boy…

     


    For some people,” 50 Cent says, “it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists.”


    He goes on to say that Eminem is without a doubt the best and would slay anyone.

    “Hip Hop is Black music, without question, and, unfortunately for some people, it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists,” 50 Cent said. “It is what it is. You can get like whoever you think is the best Black artist and stand them face-to-face in a room with Em and he will eat that [guy] alive. Right now if you had ’em prepare themselves, whatever way they would have to prepare themselves to come battle…I bet what I have, everything. That [guy] is meatloaf.”





    “It’s tough for me to say some of this [stuff] and not sound like a hater. But I don’t care.”


    50 Cent’s old pal with G-Unit, The Game, agrees. A video of an interview from way back when, after the Recovery album dropped, shows The Game talking about Eminem and saying he is the one rapper no one in the industry wants a problem with, including himself. The Game says when he was having problems with Eminem’s labelmates Dr. Dre and 50 Cent, that he chose to avoid Eminem.

    The Game, like 50 Cent, also brings up Jay Z in comparison to Eminem saying “Jay know” in regards to Eminem being the best, not wanting a beef with him and adds that he “shreds MCs.”


     

    If there's nothing to rap, where would people get these opinions? Why would Eminem be obsessed with Kendrick Lamar?

    "

    Eminem heard that Kendrick Lamar was the best rapper and he invited him to the studio to get him on a song," Sheeran says in the interview. "He arrived and Kendrick came with all his mates and Eminem said, 'I just want you in the studio, just you on your own and then my engineer is gonna come in and then record you doing it, but your mates aren’t allowed in.

    Kendrick did it, wrote a sick verse, and then everyone came in to listen to it. Eminem said that he did it to test Kendrick because he thought he had a ghostwriter. He then realized that he didn't then claimed [Kendrick] was the best."

    To his credit, Kendrick suspected what was going on. In 2014, he discussed the song's recording process during a radio interview. "He brought me out to Detroit, I had a show, and he brought me to the studio to do a hook... I go in, do the hook, and he's like 'I like the hook.' Then I'm like, 'Alright, cool, I'm finna dip,' then he says 'Think you could do a verse?'... The thing with Em which was crazy to me is he kicks everybody out of the studio... I took it as him kicking everybody out to see if it's really you writing those raps that you're writing."
     
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  79. @PSR
    "Work twice as hard?" I'm gonna say that even most American blacks would roll their eyes at that one.

    I work in a big food service operation in the NYC metro area which is around %50 black. I have heard this expressed dozens of times by blacks. Even those being terminated for their 5th no call no show.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    Deflection of personal responsibility is the default whine for blacks.
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  80. Altai says:

    The same thing was apparently present to an even higher degree than I realised at the Oscars this year.

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  81. Bugg says:
    @Tiny Duck’s Gay Mom
    The United States of America should be renamed to: The Dr. Martin Luther King Jr Country

    North America should be renamed to... Northern Dr. King Land

    Earth should be renamed to ... Planet MLK

    “Who wrote the Star Spangled banner?” David Chase would be hung today-

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  82. The sum of all this stuff is the Shonda Rhimes ABC shows: Whites lust after Black women, Republican Presidents supporting Assault Weapons controls, Black Doctors in control of hospitals, Interracial relationships (Black males – Females not so much), the omnipresent Black managers and administrators “in control” of Whites and Asians, Black lawyers being the cleverest cookies on the block.

    Truly a Black Fantasia of the World as they truly desire in their dreams.

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  83. @AndrewR
    I guarantee, if you put it up to a vote, all non-black groups would, on average, vote black women the least attractive of all ethnic groups in America (worldwide, Pygmies and Ozzy Abos are arguably less attractive but those groups have few if any members in the US). And I imagine a sizeable number of black men would agree.

    I had a Black woman tell me where I used to work that African men consider White females to be the best looking of all.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    White women are the best looking women all. That's why black men rape so many White women.
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  84. @Compy

    This reality harks back to what so many black children are taught by our parents: that we have to “work twice as hard to earn half as much”.
     
    Very few blacks are taught jack shit by their parents. That’s a major reason why blacks are over represented in our prison population.

    A good start would be revising the quoted phrase to, "we have to work twice as hard to be adequate," as a majority of public school teachers will readily attest.

    Very few blacks are taught jack shit by their parents.

    Very few black kids have both parents. Black boys will get taught stuff by their Moms, but that’s mostly not what they need.

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  85. @Anon
    These guys are amateurs. They just grab and run.

    The real pro was the guy who not only joined the melee but did a slick spin.

    https://youtu.be/ob6L0yPP0TE?t=10s

    The guy at :28 seconds that effortlessly catches the thrown chair is pretty good too. I wish our Congress was like this. I’d have more respect for Paul Ryan, etc if he went all Jackie Chan on someone.

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  86. Svigor says:

    From Kendrick’s Pulitzer to Beychella: how the mainstream woke up to black excellence

    Zzzzzzzzz

    There’s a reason Kanye West ran up to a different award stage, at the Video Music awards in 2009, to snatch the microphone from Taylor Swift to deem Beyoncé’s Single Ladies “one of the best videos of all time”

    In order of likeliness, that’s probably:

    Jewish excellence
    White excellence
    Yellow excellence
    Black excellence

    In any event, I think the probability that Beyonce had much to do with the video’s excellence is right around zero.

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  87. Svigor says:

    how the mainstream woke up to black excellence

    That’s why they call it “the mainstream”; it’s mediocre.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    That’s why they call it “the mainstream”; it’s mediocre
     
    "The mainstream of American literature is a stagnant swamp."-- AynRand
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  88. Svigor says:

    Real men are not afraid of diversity and progressive values.

    Ever noticed how much lingo lefty guys try to appropriate from the alt-right? Makes you wonder how cognizant they are of their own yearning.

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  89. @AndrewR
    Well said. When the Starbucks dindus said they "feared for their lives" from the polite bicycle cops, they surprised even me with their shamelessness. There is no limit to dindu dishonesty.

    They “feared for their lives”, but refused to leave when these same cops asked them politely to do so?

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  90. I’m fine with this.

    Pretty sure blacks already have their own music award show. They want “the Grammys”, fine. Give it to them. Who cares.

    Let’s just have a “Non-black Music Awards”. Non-black people who give a crap–i don’t, i’ve never seen the Grammys–can watch the NBMA in peace without all the black whining, preening and asswipery. Win, win.

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  91. Anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @ogunsiron
    Current year black activism is female normed to an astonishing degree.
    Grown men rolling around in helplessness and claiming that their ''lives are in danger" because white sjws at starbucks want them to leave. Hysterical female black intersectionals claiming to be "fearing for their lives" on college campuses where all the white people automatically defer to them.

    Hysterical female black intersectionals claiming to be “fearing for their lives” on college campuses where all the white people automatically defer to them.

    This is calculated. It’s a way of gaming speech codes at various academic institutions, which usually uphold the right to freedom of speech, but also have a caveat that you’re not allowed to threaten people.

    You can’t shut people up because they offend you, but you can shut them up for threatening you, therefore all offensive speech is claimed to be threatening speech.

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  92. @Tiny Duck
    Well, that and impregnating white girls

    The truth is that Black excellence woke up the mainstream. As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy

    You couldn't guck with this guys swag

    https://www.youtube.com/user/JemelOneFive/videos?disable_polymer=1

    As Jack Soo said to David Janssen on the set of The Green Berets: ” Tiny Duck gets more white women than you. “

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  93. Anon[673] • Disclaimer says:

    The peril of ignoring blacks is almost as bad as the peril of acknowledging them.

    Wakanda do?
    The King of Wakanda lives in Manhattan and hangs out with Tony Stark at Avengers HQ.

    It seems strange that black stars the appeal to blacks that spend all their money on drugs and sex do not get more industry awards. Why does the industry and studios instead reward White stars that make more money and profits? Its a mystery.

    Only racists and racist math could even argue with blacks and their endless gripes I suppose.
    The racism of math and those hateful written symbols that lead to literacy and formulas.

    Wakanda do?
    The King of Wakanda is working with SHIELD in Manhattan.

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  94. @CCZ
    Chateau Heartiste has a post, The Essential Femaleness Of Leftism, with a comment and a CH response that is relevant to one of iSteve's prolific racial commenters, TD.

    The Spirit Within

    Real men are not afraid of diversity and progressive values.

    What we have on here is a bunch of misogynists who will never find a woman to love them and they lash out.

    No wonder white women prefer Black Men. Who can blame them?

    [CH: this reads like Tiny Duck imported from Steve Sailer’s place]

     

    “Real men are not afraid of diversity and progressive values”

    Whys is this insult always used? I member back when it was “real men are not ‘afraid’ of a strong woman” …….the “afraid” part is pretty funny. If I don’t agree with you then I must be “afraid”.

    I’ve always laughed at that.

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  95. @Tiny Duck
    Well, that and impregnating white girls

    The truth is that Black excellence woke up the mainstream. As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy

    You couldn't guck with this guys swag

    https://www.youtube.com/user/JemelOneFive/videos?disable_polymer=1

    “As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy”

    what do the unusual people of color do?

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  96. @Tiny Duck
    Hate to break it to you but People of Color will not be deterred by white shenanigans and will stand together as one against white supremacy

    “and will stand together as one”

    Couldn’t agree more, look to Chicago, Baltimore and Detroit for perfect examples of black unity……finally, Tiny Dick and I agree…..

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  97. @Mishra
    Totally agree. There have been dozens upon dozens of black people who worked hard at their jobs, and it's incumbent upon us to recognize and celebrate them.

    Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele to name a few.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    Those are the same three always trotted out by the "I'm not racist" Republicans like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh.
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  98. BenKenobi says:
    @Mishra
    Totally agree. There have been dozens upon dozens of black people who worked hard at their jobs, and it's incumbent upon us to recognize and celebrate them.

    I like you, Mishra.

    Do you have a brother named Urza?

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    • Replies: @Mishra
    OMG. Finally looked it up. Now I really have to petition Ron for a name change.
    Trouble is, he gets cross with me each time I do that.
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  99. Anonymous[289] • Disclaimer says:

    Every time I hear Lamar’s golden voice it takes me back to Wakanda.

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  100. @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    The “King Kunta” lyrics are pretty clever; it requires knowing about the legend of King Kunta, a black slave who was granted his freedom but then had his legs cut off.

    If you want to pick a bone with hip-hop, Kendrick is not the artist to do it with. I can’t help but think a lot of commenters here don’t understand art if they’re quoting these lyrics out of context and bashing them because they feature expletives and references to things they don’t understand. You can’t divorce them from music and context.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    1) Rappers don't write their stuff.

    2) You have zero expertise regarding lyrics and music. Awarding a Pulitzer to a rapper means the Pulitzer no longer has any prestige as an award for cultural or artistic achievement.
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  101. @Reginald Maplethorp
    A recent NPR broadcast said about the Coachella festival that "only one artist mattered: Beyonce!" Then they played clips of her performing pop songs from more than a decade ago.

    I am continually amazed that wretched propaganda broadcast still has any listeners.

    Beyonce has the best PR team in the world, bar none, aided in no small part by the current ‘black=good, white=bad’ cultural climate foisted upon us by media Jews.

    Beyonce is a real instance of ‘the emperor has no clothes’.

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  102. @Mr. Blank
    Someone refresh my memory: Wasn’t Coachella founded as another of those “indie” festivals that was supposed to be all about the music, man? Or was it all just a corporate front to showcase superstar talent from the beginning?

    It used to be that way. Madonna was the first ‘huge’ artist to perform there in 2006, but she performed a short set in the dance tent, not on the main stage (it was still packed to the rafters and all the other people performing at the same time had almost no one see them because all the hipsters had flocked to Madonna. This was during her ‘Confessions on a Dancefloor’ era when she was suddenly cool again for a quick second). Since then it’s become more and more commercial. Lady Gaga headlined last year.

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  103. I still haven’t heard about black appreciation day at Starbucks–the day blacks get free drinks as reparations.

    This is such a great idea and in so many peoples’ interest–including say Dunkin’ Donuts, Tully’s, Caribou, Seattle’s Best, etc.–not to mention providing great entertainment. Ridiculous some more entreprenuerial folks haven’t stepped up to the plate to get the word out.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    Normal people understand that non-paying customers don't get to hog limited space at eateries. Neither blacks nor lefties are normal.
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  104. Anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    I would think the writing of an intelligent, thoughtful person would reflect those qualities. Perhaps they are hidden in his lyrics, but I failed to notice them. Then again, I didn’t spend a lot of time or effort reading them. However, given that he won the Pulitzer Prize, it’s not surprising he’d look and probably be reasonably intelligent and thoughtful.

    Ok, well, I’m not just trying to be contrarian.

    I’m being quite serious–theres an extremely competitive market for “best rapper” so, yes, I honestly think you should assume you’re missing something in light of that fact.

    Before anyone straw mans, no, Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer were never considered serious rappers by fans of the medium.

    I’m not sure why this particular subject is so difficult for isteve commenters to see objectively–maybe just because they dislike the importance of rap (a perfectly reasonable opinion).

    But…I’ve seen more than one person say they could do what Jay-Z and Eminem do, it’s just “nursery rhymes”, etc. Well, no, you can’t do what Eminem does and the couplet you posted does not compare to why Eminem is respected as a great rapper.

    Imagine there were some weird Bulgarian village dance culture–ok, everyone dresses up in medieval garb and there’s some competitive aspect it. Now I might not know anything about this weird Bulgarian culture and I might think, “It all looks the same.” But if every single person within the Bulgarian dance culture had a deep conception of who was the best and why then yeah, I’d assume there’s something going on that I’m not aware of.

    So, for example, here are two VERY famous rappers who have clearly thought hard about Eminem being better than them. If there’s nothing to rap, how could these people who sell millions of records sound like it kills them they aren’t as good?

    “you notice in hip-hop, Eminem is the only rapper that, that nobody ever wants a problem with, including myself man. Eminem is like the most lyrically insane, even when I was going at 50, and you know and you know me and Dre wasn’t seeing eye to eye, man, I stayed away from the white dude, you know because he a problem, you know what I’m saying I understand it, you know I’m saying like Eminem I don’t think there’s a rapper he won’t slay in and you don’t even want to war with Eminem, you know he crazy.
    [Reporter:]

    He was talking about how he was going to pick fight, if he were to come at you…
    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Yeah.

    [Reporter:]
    With like an industry beef, what would you have done?

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Run.

    [Reporter:]
    For real.

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:] Source: LYBIO.net
    Yeah Eminem is [crazy] – you don’t want, you don’t understand- I am a hip-hop artist and I am one of the biggest ones in the world, you don’t want a beef with Eminem – he shreds, he shreds MC’s like for real, and I ain’t his best friend or nothing – I’m just saying, I understand that he, you know he can’t be seen by nobody, Jay know everybody know, you don’t mess with the white boy…

    For some people,” 50 Cent says, “it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists.”

    He goes on to say that Eminem is without a doubt the best and would slay anyone.

    “Hip Hop is Black music, without question, and, unfortunately for some people, it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists,” 50 Cent said. “It is what it is. You can get like whoever you think is the best Black artist and stand them face-to-face in a room with Em and he will eat that [guy] alive. Right now if you had ’em prepare themselves, whatever way they would have to prepare themselves to come battle…I bet what I have, everything. That [guy] is meatloaf.”

    “It’s tough for me to say some of this [stuff] and not sound like a hater. But I don’t care.”

    50 Cent’s old pal with G-Unit, The Game, agrees. A video of an interview from way back when, after the Recovery album dropped, shows The Game talking about Eminem and saying he is the one rapper no one in the industry wants a problem with, including himself. The Game says when he was having problems with Eminem’s labelmates Dr. Dre and 50 Cent, that he chose to avoid Eminem.

    The Game, like 50 Cent, also brings up Jay Z in comparison to Eminem saying “Jay know” in regards to Eminem being the best, not wanting a beef with him and adds that he “shreds MCs.”

    If there’s nothing to rap, where would people get these opinions? Why would Eminem be obsessed with Kendrick Lamar?

    Eminem heard that Kendrick Lamar was the best rapper and he invited him to the studio to get him on a song,” Sheeran says in the interview. “He arrived and Kendrick came with all his mates and Eminem said, ‘I just want you in the studio, just you on your own and then my engineer is gonna come in and then record you doing it, but your mates aren’t allowed in.

    Kendrick did it, wrote a sick verse, and then everyone came in to listen to it. Eminem said that he did it to test Kendrick because he thought he had a ghostwriter. He then realized that he didn’t then claimed [Kendrick] was the best.”

    To his credit, Kendrick suspected what was going on. In 2014, he discussed the song’s recording process during a radio interview. “He brought me out to Detroit, I had a show, and he brought me to the studio to do a hook… I go in, do the hook, and he’s like ‘I like the hook.’ Then I’m like, ‘Alright, cool, I’m finna dip,’ then he says ‘Think you could do a verse?’… The thing with Em which was crazy to me is he kicks everybody out of the studio… I took it as him kicking everybody out to see if it’s really you writing those raps that you’re writing.”

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    • Replies: @jim jones
    Even I am impressed by Eminem:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yhyp-_hX2s
    , @interesting
    McDonald's sells the most hamburgers than anyone so by your logic that makes their hamburger the best in the world.
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  105. @The Alarmist

    "Black megalomania can be pretty entertaining, as African dictator Big Men like Idi Amin have demonstrated, but just how seriously do we have to take it?"
     
    I like the scene from Wrath of Khan, where Khan tells Kirk he has deprived him of his ship and intends to momentarily deprive him of his life.

    We should take it all very seriously, because having deprived us of our prizes and other things, just
    like South Africa, they will eventually get around to depriving us of our lives.

    How did that work out for Khan?

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  106. Gleimhart says:
    @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    And here I thought that giving a Pulitzer to a negro rapper was a full lip-lock french kiss with trash culture. I stand corrected!

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  107. Gleimhart says:
    @PSR
    "Work twice as hard?" I'm gonna say that even most American blacks would roll their eyes at that one.

    Working at all for most black people is a humiliation to their excellence, and qualifies as “working twice as hard.”

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  108. Gleimhart says:
    @Tiny Duck
    Hate to break it to you but People of Color will not be deterred by white shenanigans and will stand together as one against white supremacy

    Hate to break it to you, but “People of color™” (a silly term) would still be wiping their ass with banana leaves, living in mud huts, and sitting around the goat dung fire picking fleas out of their beard without White people.

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  109. Gleimhart says:
    @Anonymous
    The best black athletes tend to be exceptionally hard workers. That's what separates them from the merely talented. Ask someone who's trained with Floyd Mayweather.

    Same applies to music. Quincy Jones thinks The Beatles were pikers because he never would have put up with people being so sloppy as a live band.


    Michael Jordans brother was a highly respected sergeant major; I'm guessing he also knew something about hard work and demanding it.



    ...so yeah, we've met some black people who work hard. Also in sales, small business, factories....many fields where plenty of blacks make their reputations with hard work.

    Taking advantage of Affirmative Action = hard work.

    Haha, okay.

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  110. Gleimhart says:
    @Bill in Tokyo
    One of the hardest working men I ever met was a black man going on 60. He worked in the basement of a wine store on Madison Ave. in the cellar. He climbed up and down shelves to get bottles and worked an elevator by hand with a rope. It was a busy store.

    A black person doing something useful. Such a fascinating story!

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  111. Gleimhart says:
    @J1234

    [Beyonce] is the most beloved artist on the face of the planet,
     
    That's a fact. There are charts and statistics on belovedness that prove it.

    What black influence has done over the last 100 years, generally speaking, is to gradually move the emphasis away from composition in popular music towards performance. (The recording industry also played a part in that, too, though.) Why didn't the Beatles and Led Zeppelin and Creedence Clearwater Revival dance during gigs in the 1960's? Because that's what the Temptations did. White bands of the era were more about new musical horizons.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK867ovW7AQ

    To be fair, black musicians accomplished amazing things during the 20th century, often demonstrating true genius (despite what some IQ obsessed white advocates say), but even when armed with musical genius, the black mind seems to place style over substance. That's why Ella Fitzgerald can make Old MacDonald a jazz standard. This style oriented mindset has leeched over into non-artistic endeavors. Court cases can be won with phrases like, "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Fmwgf0NRA

    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I’d definitely be one to know. There have been some talented black performers, but that’s about it.

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    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    Not sure how you would define musical genius, but here are a few candidates: Art Tatum, Errol Garner, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, Thelonius Monk, Mulgrew Miller and McCoy Tyner. Dexter Gordon, Wynton Kelly, Lee Morgan, both Hank and Elvin Jones and Oscar Peterson and could probably be thrown in as well. Oh, and I shouldn't forget Cecil Taylor, who may be the greatest genius on the list. But that last entry will take heavy flak even from some jazz aficionados.


    Those players all demonstrate differing kinds of genius in differing ways, but a strong case can be made for all. None are Franz Liszt or Alexander Scriabin, but neither are those two any of the above.

    , @J1234

    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I’d definitely be one to know.
     
    Scott Joplin. Louis Armstrong. Charlie Christian. I could go on, but there are probably countless unacknowledged negro musical geniuses who have been lost to history. I'm talking largely about people from the early to mid twentieth century.

    Because rap music is - and much of motown was - pretty bad, that doesn't mean there weren't periods of great musical productivity within black culture. Absurdities like rap gained popularity by resting on the laurels of previous black musical forms that gave black musical influence a good name. That those previous musical forms were recognized and influential around the world wasn't arbitrary or serendipitous.

    I know that "genius" is thrown around were it shouldn't be on the likes of Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson, but the people who invented boogie woogie (Jelly Roll Morton and such) truly had something of value to present to the world, whether it was simple or complex. Just a reminder: intelligence is not a category with which to compartmentalize people. It's a distribution, just as Charles Murray says. This is true for every population of human beings.

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  112. Gleimhart says:
    @Anonymous
    What about that would be surprising?

    He's generally considered the best rapper of his generation; whether or not you enjoy listening to rap it is an objective fact that it's extremely competitive and millions wish they were their generations most celebrated rapper

    Being considered “the best rapper of your generation” is every bit as meaningful as being considered “the best spewer of tasteless degenerate crap of your generation.

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    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
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  113. Gleimhart says:
    @Pericles

    despite what some IQ obsessed white advocates say
     
    I'd say blacks overperform on musical and verbal ability when one considers their IQ. They clearly love both. I bear them no ill will for it.

    Blacks enjoy the exhibitionistic aspect of performing, but there is a hard ceiling of talent beyond which none have ever gone, but which countless Whites have.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If there is any place that Blacks come close to Whites, in terms of talent, it might be music. While rap and ghetto love songs are dogshit, it has to be said that there are Black performers, arrangers, composers, lyricists that if not up to the absolute peaks of White achievement, are at least pretty good.

    Nadia Boulanger never considered Quincy Jones the peak of her pedagogical efforts, to be sure, but he was certainly a competent arranger and film composer. Marilyn Horne was never the greatest mezzo of all time, but she was certainly a legitimate operatic figure. A number of black classical musicians fill orchestra chairs and most are considered about as good as the seat would attract.

    I'm no expert on classical music and I never will be: it doesn't interest me that much. Rock guitarists I know. There are a number of black guitar players that are about as good as there are in rock, in jazz, in blues, as well as bassists and drummers and keyboard players.

    In terms of popular singers, technically, Sarah Vaughan, Dinah Washington, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat King Cole, are tough to dismiss as incompetent or gimmicky. Diana Ross is a c*** as a person, but she leaves most white modern pop singers in the dust technically. As I said I'm not a fan of Beyonce, but she can sing, as her turn on Cadillac Records proves.

    Just because a people can't run a civilization doesn't mean they are not good at music, or athletics.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qs5emQ0Jgw
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  114. Gleimhart says:
    @kaganovitch
    I work in a big food service operation in the NYC metro area which is around %50 black. I have heard this expressed dozens of times by blacks. Even those being terminated for their 5th no call no show.

    Deflection of personal responsibility is the default whine for blacks.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Deflection of personal responsibility is the default whine for blacks
     
    Dorothy Legrand was a black businesswoman who ran for Congress in North Minneapolis in 1994. "Personal responsibility" was her theme, her mantra, in that election. She used the term numerous times in the one rally I attended.

    She got a whopping 37% against incumbent Martin Sabo, who goes by Martin Olav Sabo during election seasons, to emphasize his Nordicity.

    Blacks would much sooner vote for a blond Viking who throws coins from the float than for a hectoring one of their own who refuses to.
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  115. Gleimhart says:
    @Joe Stalin
    I had a Black woman tell me where I used to work that African men consider White females to be the best looking of all.

    White women are the best looking women all. That’s why black men rape so many White women.

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  116. Gleimhart says:
    @interesting
    Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele to name a few.

    Those are the same three always trotted out by the “I’m not racist” Republicans like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh.

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    • Replies: @interesting
    okay.....I get your back handed insult.....but tell me....are they wrong?

    And hey there race baiter, here's another one for ya.....Larry Elder.....I have more if you wanna bait me some more?
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  117. Gleimhart says:
    @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    The "King Kunta" lyrics are pretty clever; it requires knowing about the legend of King Kunta, a black slave who was granted his freedom but then had his legs cut off.

    If you want to pick a bone with hip-hop, Kendrick is not the artist to do it with. I can't help but think a lot of commenters here don't understand art if they're quoting these lyrics out of context and bashing them because they feature expletives and references to things they don't understand. You can't divorce them from music and context.

    1) Rappers don’t write their stuff.

    2) You have zero expertise regarding lyrics and music. Awarding a Pulitzer to a rapper means the Pulitzer no longer has any prestige as an award for cultural or artistic achievement.

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    • Agree: Kylie
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  118. Gleimhart says:
    @AnotherDad
    I still haven't heard about black appreciation day at Starbucks--the day blacks get free drinks as reparations.

    This is such a great idea and in so many peoples' interest--including say Dunkin' Donuts, Tully's, Caribou, Seattle's Best, etc.--not to mention providing great entertainment. Ridiculous some more entreprenuerial folks haven't stepped up to the plate to get the word out.

    Normal people understand that non-paying customers don’t get to hog limited space at eateries. Neither blacks nor lefties are normal.

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  119. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Humbles
    Megalomania is about the only thing that blacks uniformly excell at. I'm not saying that facetiously. Have you ever met a black person, male or female, who didn't have extremely high -- some might say excessive-- self-esteem?

    Maybe blacks got Megalonin than Melanin.

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  120. @Svigor

    how the mainstream woke up to black excellence
     
    That's why they call it "the mainstream"; it's mediocre.

    That’s why they call it “the mainstream”; it’s mediocre

    “The mainstream of American literature is a stagnant swamp.”– AynRand

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  121. Anonymous[374] • Disclaimer says:

    Sad to see that “I’m’a let u finish” was the signal cultural event of the past 10 years. I don’t think it would still be a thing if not for Saint Obama interjecting himself into it (and on The Wrong Side, no less)

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  122. @El Dato

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he’s Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin’.
     
    Hillary was actually a black presidental contenderess?

    Hillary was actually a black presidental contenderess?

    Defending a rapist husband isn’t that different from defending a rapist son.

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  123. @Gleimhart
    Deflection of personal responsibility is the default whine for blacks.

    Deflection of personal responsibility is the default whine for blacks

    Dorothy Legrand was a black businesswoman who ran for Congress in North Minneapolis in 1994. “Personal responsibility” was her theme, her mantra, in that election. She used the term numerous times in the one rally I attended.

    She got a whopping 37% against incumbent Martin Sabo, who goes by Martin Olav Sabo during election seasons, to emphasize his Nordicity.

    Blacks would much sooner vote for a blond Viking who throws coins from the float than for a hectoring one of their own who refuses to.

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  124. The whole idea of “black excellence” is a collectivist form of Pride that seems to be rampant in the modern black community. Pride is ultimately misguided because it’s an inflated sense of self of importance. (aka: unearned self esteem). Pride is unsustainable.

    Our culture has many people that would rather blame others then work on their own personal development and sense of spiritual connectedness. The closer people get towards god and positivity the better the culture will become. The deeper our spiritual connection the better our art and entertainment and culture. Happier people have way more influence than egotists. It’s work we all must do starting with our minds….. Consider fasting/prayer/daily gratitude and allowing old emotions to come and go without eating them away… It only takes a few of us to change the culture (regardless of race) for the better. Black and White egotists will never have the influence of the human heart and soul, just of temporary vanity, glamour and unsustainable egoic pride.

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  125. TheJester says:
    @Anon
    The more the culture becomes primitivized and simplified, the more blackness will be the standard.

    Opera used to be the favored music of respectable folk.

    Now, its Rapera with HAMILTON. Some say rap is poetry.

    And of course, babytalk becomes genius literature. The Nasty Coates.

    And college debating prizes go to howlers of jive.

    Blacks are like children who get all miffed if they don't get the prizes.

    Winter Olympian got all upset cuz he didn't get to carry the flag.

    And Obama felt entitled to be president because.. he's Magic Negro. He even got a Nobel for doing nuttin'.

    Maybe, we should come up with New Prizes:

    Annual Awards for

    Black Magnificence
    Black Holiness
    Black Profundity
    Black Originality (Who invented 'twerking'?)
    Black Awesomeness
    Black Tremendousness
    Blackity Blackness

    Money devolves to its lowest common denominator. So does culture.

    Perhaps the dye was cast on the debasement of American culture (from its European roots) when integration came to mean “Blacks” and “Whites” would meet somewhere in the middle. Diversity (driven by SJWs) means that all cultures are equal … so, diversity (driven by SJWs) requires cultural miscegenation, does it not?

    To make this happen, it followed that white girls would corn-row their hair and pierce their ears, noses, and tongues. White youth found easy reasons to give into impulsive behaviors, including reckless sexual promiscuity. Courting degenerated into hookups; dance degenerated into twerking, and society no longer found it antisocial for women to have children out of wedlock or for a woman to have five children by five different men.

    As the black “plantation” mentality spread, ever larger numbers of ethnicities and social strata sought social and economic equality with blacks through intersectional “victimization” on the part of the White Male Patriarchy. This qualified them for black-derived social and economic privileges and outright government handouts.

    But the plan did not work. We did not “meet in the middle”. We became like them; they did not become like us. They were not elevated; we were debased. The politically-incorrect question that can’t be asked is, “Why?”

    P.S. I’ve often thought that feminism was nothing but a “Back-to-Africa” movement on the part of white women. Perhaps the same can be said for our entire culture.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    As the black “plantation” mentality spread

    Plantation was pro-family and pro-work even though it was unjust.

    It was post-plantation that turned into slash-and-burn mentality.
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  126. @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    “Devil” and its variants are the closest black-slurring-white equivalent to the n-word, with connotations of historic violence like the Zebra murders and other NOI-inspired hate crimes.

    This stuff is like the black version of Moon Man, except not as good. What’s the prize that he got called again? Can I get one in the prize claw machine at Denny’s?

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  127. @Gleimhart
    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I'd definitely be one to know. There have been some talented black performers, but that's about it.

    Not sure how you would define musical genius, but here are a few candidates: Art Tatum, Errol Garner, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, Thelonius Monk, Mulgrew Miller and McCoy Tyner. Dexter Gordon, Wynton Kelly, Lee Morgan, both Hank and Elvin Jones and Oscar Peterson and could probably be thrown in as well. Oh, and I shouldn’t forget Cecil Taylor, who may be the greatest genius on the list. But that last entry will take heavy flak even from some jazz aficionados.

    Those players all demonstrate differing kinds of genius in differing ways, but a strong case can be made for all. None are Franz Liszt or Alexander Scriabin, but neither are those two any of the above.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to. Popular classical music is all simple stuff rhythmwise.

    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic. Classical musicians don't sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)
    , @Gleimhart
    You listed some talented jazz performers. Good ears, good kinesthetic coordination, and lots of practice, but at the end of the day it's still just playing "licks" over the chord scale of the moment, and does not even halfway begin to rise to the level of "genius."

    Tell me what great works of music any of them are responsible for. None, in fact. To be a "genius" without having any great work of music to show for it is a pretty neat trick indeed.

    As for the performing aspect of Liszt (etc.), he, Beethoven, Mozart, Bach (and others) all were amazing improvisers, a fact testified to by their contemporaries who were also accomplished musicians. We simply have no recordings of their performances since the technology was obviously not available then.

    Also, the specific genre of jazz (swing rhythms, playing "licks" over chord changes of short form songs, etc.) did not exist in Liszt's time, so it's kind of silly to say "Liszt wasn't Errol Garner." In addition to his improvisatory prowess, Liszt in fact had the ability to place the full orchestral score on his piano and, having never seen it before, play a perfect piano reduction of the whole thing right off the bat. Don't make silly comparisons.
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  128. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gleimhart
    Blacks enjoy the exhibitionistic aspect of performing, but there is a hard ceiling of talent beyond which none have ever gone, but which countless Whites have.

    If there is any place that Blacks come close to Whites, in terms of talent, it might be music. While rap and ghetto love songs are dogshit, it has to be said that there are Black performers, arrangers, composers, lyricists that if not up to the absolute peaks of White achievement, are at least pretty good.

    Nadia Boulanger never considered Quincy Jones the peak of her pedagogical efforts, to be sure, but he was certainly a competent arranger and film composer. Marilyn Horne was never the greatest mezzo of all time, but she was certainly a legitimate operatic figure. A number of black classical musicians fill orchestra chairs and most are considered about as good as the seat would attract.

    I’m no expert on classical music and I never will be: it doesn’t interest me that much. Rock guitarists I know. There are a number of black guitar players that are about as good as there are in rock, in jazz, in blues, as well as bassists and drummers and keyboard players.

    In terms of popular singers, technically, Sarah Vaughan, Dinah Washington, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat King Cole, are tough to dismiss as incompetent or gimmicky. Diana Ross is a c*** as a person, but she leaves most white modern pop singers in the dust technically. As I said I’m not a fan of Beyonce, but she can sing, as her turn on Cadillac Records proves.

    Just because a people can’t run a civilization doesn’t mean they are not good at music, or athletics.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart

    If there is any place that Blacks come close to Whites, in terms of talent, it might be music.
     
    That is factually incorrect.

    ...it has to be said that there are Black performers, arrangers, composers, lyricists that if not up to the absolute peaks of White achievement, are at least pretty good.
     
    Not even halfway close to White achievement by any stretch of charity. (And I don't know of a single lyric written by a black that could measure up to, say, Gordon Lightfoot's Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald (for example), or to Tim Rice's body of work.

    Nadia Boulanger never considered Quincy Jones the peak of her pedagogical efforts, to be sure, but he was certainly a competent arranger and film composer.
     
    So what. There are loads of White guys you’ve never even heard of who’re better arrangers and composers than Quincy Jones.

    A number of black classical musicians fill orchestra chairs and most are considered about as good as the seat would attract.
     
    Yes, there are some talented black performers, but I already said this in one of my other posts. Fact is, they are a minuscule percentage compared to the general population, and none surpass the thousands of White musicians who’ve been doing all that stuff for centuries now, and better, and who, in fact, invented it.

    Rock guitarists I know. There are a number of black guitar players that are about as good as there are in rock, in jazz, in blues, as well as bassists and drummers and keyboard players.
     
    There are more oriental guitar players (for example) who are professionally competent than there are black ones, and the White ones are still by far the best. Sorry, but there are no black versions of Tommy Emmanuel or Ana Vidovic (just two of many examples).

    Just because a people can’t run a civilization doesn’t mean they are not good at music, or athletics.
     
    Oh gawd, what a silly straw man. I never said that there were zero talented black musicians, and I never said anything about athletics.

    Blacks don’t measure up to White accomplishment in music. My original statement stands.

    P.S. I don't know why you posted the Nat King Cole video.
    , @Mishra
    Agreed; only a fool would pretend they're not disproportionately talented in sports and performing arts.

    That being said, Sarah Vaughan was at least 50% gimmick. Gimmick, in this case, being a nice word for warbling.
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  129. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:
    @Negrolphin Pool
    Not sure how you would define musical genius, but here are a few candidates: Art Tatum, Errol Garner, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, Thelonius Monk, Mulgrew Miller and McCoy Tyner. Dexter Gordon, Wynton Kelly, Lee Morgan, both Hank and Elvin Jones and Oscar Peterson and could probably be thrown in as well. Oh, and I shouldn't forget Cecil Taylor, who may be the greatest genius on the list. But that last entry will take heavy flak even from some jazz aficionados.


    Those players all demonstrate differing kinds of genius in differing ways, but a strong case can be made for all. None are Franz Liszt or Alexander Scriabin, but neither are those two any of the above.

    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to. Popular classical music is all simple stuff rhythmwise.

    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic. Classical musicians don’t sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Contemporary jazz musicians tend to be outstanding technicians, more so than in the past. Stravinsky's 1945 Ebony Concerto for the Woody Herman jazz band was very hard for 1945 big band musicians to play, but the current band playing under the Woody Herman name has no problem with it.
    , @Negrolphin Pool
    The ability to spontaneously transpose a piece into a different key could almost serve as a definition of musical skill. To do so, one needs to have assimilated the relationships among notes to the point that it's reflexive.


    A good jazz piano player will have little trouble learning more straightforward Chopin tunes by ear and can probably even learn some Rachmaninoff preludes and etudes by listening. Doing so might take a couple hours.

    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.
    , @Gleimhart

    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to.
     
    Your “white professor” sounds like a liberal doofus who either doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or else is a fabrication of your imagination.

    The assertion that Classical (i.e., Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Nationalistic, 20th Century, Neo-classical, Expressionistic, Neo-Romantic, etc.) "is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all” is, quite possibly, the dumbest, most ignorant, and laughably absurd statement regarding any aspect of music that I have ever encountered. Wow! Where to begin...

    Also, it’s interesting how your “professor” only lists harmony and melody, but not counterpoint, texture, orchestration, form, range of genre, range of expression, and range of articulation and phrasing. I’m going to say, NOT a professor.


    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.
     
    Actually that is not true at all. Jazz has the swing rhythm, syncopation, and unmeasured rhythms that naturally occur during an improvisatory solo. None of this even begins to scale the the heights of rhythmic achievement pioneered by White composers. Syncopations, infinite variety of rhythmic formulations, irregular groupings, across the beat and/or bar groupings, overlapping rhythmic counterpoint, simultaneous (implied or notated) meters, regularly changing meters, implied meter-less and actual meter-less, etc., ALL invented by White composers. And no, we’re not talking about pieces “no one but academics listen to,” nor is all of this confined to 20th Century compositions. Yes, the great composers are performed and recorded thousands of times for general public consumption every year. Sorry to burst your bubble, or the “professor’s."

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic.
    Either you or your professor are lying. You keep piling up stupidity upon stupidity. Have you any idea how you sound? It’d be like me weighing forth with my “expertise” about the specifics of neurosurgery.
    Classical musicians don’t sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)
     
    You are, quite simply, out of your everlovin’ mind. I damn near fell off my chair when I read your last assertion. Let me ask you this: How many scoring sessions have you observed or taken part in? How many symphony concert rehearsals have you observed or taken part in? I am, on a professional basis, a regular contributor to both. I know firsthand whereof I speak.

    Although they wouldn’t let you in, you really would be knocked back on your ass were you to attend a film scoring session, where all sorts of busy, active music, and very challenging music is read down perfectly upon the initial sight reading. Same for rehearsals by orchestras. The assertion that “classical musicians” are not very good sight readers is manifestly a lie. Sight reading is one of the necessary components of classical study. It is a regular thing. "Jazz guys" read lead sheets. "Jazz guys” are NOT session musicians. Really simple stuff that’s nowhere comparable to what Classical musicians and session musicians encounter. “Jazz guys” do not know a thing about the phrasing nuances and articulation required of a Classical musicians. And the "different clefs" thing is standard for doublers. There are guys in LA, New York, London, etc., who bring different instruments to each session with them, changing as indicated in the music. Double reeds, single reeds, and flutes, multiple transpositions of each, just for ONE guy. They are paid a cartage fee for all the extra carrying they have to do. Brasses, also, although not as varied as the woodwind players. And C-clefs are not “odd clefs.”

    You're confusing "Jazz guys" with session musicians. Please don't, and please stop embarrassing yourself with talk of your "professor." You look ridiculous. It's dishonest, and it's annoying.

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  130. @Anonymous
    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to. Popular classical music is all simple stuff rhythmwise.

    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic. Classical musicians don't sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)

    Contemporary jazz musicians tend to be outstanding technicians, more so than in the past. Stravinsky’s 1945 Ebony Concerto for the Woody Herman jazz band was very hard for 1945 big band musicians to play, but the current band playing under the Woody Herman name has no problem with it.

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    Maybe that's because big bands were so popular then that they had to hire pretty much whoever they could get to do a gig. Whereas now, the jazz players that you hear tend to be signed with records and doing the festival circuit. They've gone through various filters, including formal training at music schools, that select for top skill and are used to playing only a few sets rather than being local guys doing country western or blues one night then a dance hall the next.

    But if there is some kind of musical Flynn Effect, it makes guys like Art Tatum, who is probably still unsurpassed in technical skill, even more impressive.

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  131. jim jones says:
    @Anonymous
    Ok, well, I'm not just trying to be contrarian.

    I'm being quite serious--theres an extremely competitive market for "best rapper" so, yes, I honestly think you should assume you're missing something in light of that fact.

    Before anyone straw mans, no, Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer were never considered serious rappers by fans of the medium.


    I'm not sure why this particular subject is so difficult for isteve commenters to see objectively--maybe just because they dislike the importance of rap (a perfectly reasonable opinion).

    But...I've seen more than one person say they could do what Jay-Z and Eminem do, it's just "nursery rhymes", etc. Well, no, you can't do what Eminem does and the couplet you posted does not compare to why Eminem is respected as a great rapper.


    Imagine there were some weird Bulgarian village dance culture--ok, everyone dresses up in medieval garb and there's some competitive aspect it. Now I might not know anything about this weird Bulgarian culture and I might think, "It all looks the same." But if every single person within the Bulgarian dance culture had a deep conception of who was the best and why then yeah, I'd assume there's something going on that I'm not aware of.


    So, for example, here are two VERY famous rappers who have clearly thought hard about Eminem being better than them. If there's nothing to rap, how could these people who sell millions of records sound like it kills them they aren't as good?

    "you notice in hip-hop, Eminem is the only rapper that, that nobody ever wants a problem with, including myself man. Eminem is like the most lyrically insane, even when I was going at 50, and you know and you know me and Dre wasn’t seeing eye to eye, man, I stayed away from the white dude, you know because he a problem, you know what I’m saying I understand it, you know I’m saying like Eminem I don’t think there’s a rapper he won’t slay in and you don’t even want to war with Eminem, you know he crazy.
    [Reporter:]

    He was talking about how he was going to pick fight, if he were to come at you…
    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Yeah.

    [Reporter:]
    With like an industry beef, what would you have done?

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Run.

    [Reporter:]
    For real.

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:] Source: LYBIO.net
    Yeah Eminem is [crazy] – you don’t want, you don’t understand- I am a hip-hop artist and I am one of the biggest ones in the world, you don’t want a beef with Eminem – he shreds, he shreds MC’s like for real, and I ain’t his best friend or nothing – I’m just saying, I understand that he, you know he can’t be seen by nobody, Jay know everybody know, you don’t mess with the white boy…

     


    For some people,” 50 Cent says, “it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists.”


    He goes on to say that Eminem is without a doubt the best and would slay anyone.

    “Hip Hop is Black music, without question, and, unfortunately for some people, it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists,” 50 Cent said. “It is what it is. You can get like whoever you think is the best Black artist and stand them face-to-face in a room with Em and he will eat that [guy] alive. Right now if you had ’em prepare themselves, whatever way they would have to prepare themselves to come battle…I bet what I have, everything. That [guy] is meatloaf.”





    “It’s tough for me to say some of this [stuff] and not sound like a hater. But I don’t care.”


    50 Cent’s old pal with G-Unit, The Game, agrees. A video of an interview from way back when, after the Recovery album dropped, shows The Game talking about Eminem and saying he is the one rapper no one in the industry wants a problem with, including himself. The Game says when he was having problems with Eminem’s labelmates Dr. Dre and 50 Cent, that he chose to avoid Eminem.

    The Game, like 50 Cent, also brings up Jay Z in comparison to Eminem saying “Jay know” in regards to Eminem being the best, not wanting a beef with him and adds that he “shreds MCs.”


     

    If there's nothing to rap, where would people get these opinions? Why would Eminem be obsessed with Kendrick Lamar?

    "

    Eminem heard that Kendrick Lamar was the best rapper and he invited him to the studio to get him on a song," Sheeran says in the interview. "He arrived and Kendrick came with all his mates and Eminem said, 'I just want you in the studio, just you on your own and then my engineer is gonna come in and then record you doing it, but your mates aren’t allowed in.

    Kendrick did it, wrote a sick verse, and then everyone came in to listen to it. Eminem said that he did it to test Kendrick because he thought he had a ghostwriter. He then realized that he didn't then claimed [Kendrick] was the best."

    To his credit, Kendrick suspected what was going on. In 2014, he discussed the song's recording process during a radio interview. "He brought me out to Detroit, I had a show, and he brought me to the studio to do a hook... I go in, do the hook, and he's like 'I like the hook.' Then I'm like, 'Alright, cool, I'm finna dip,' then he says 'Think you could do a verse?'... The thing with Em which was crazy to me is he kicks everybody out of the studio... I took it as him kicking everybody out to see if it's really you writing those raps that you're writing."
     

    Even I am impressed by Eminem:

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  132. @Anonymous
    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to. Popular classical music is all simple stuff rhythmwise.

    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic. Classical musicians don't sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)

    The ability to spontaneously transpose a piece into a different key could almost serve as a definition of musical skill. To do so, one needs to have assimilated the relationships among notes to the point that it’s reflexive.

    A good jazz piano player will have little trouble learning more straightforward Chopin tunes by ear and can probably even learn some Rachmaninoff preludes and etudes by listening. Doing so might take a couple hours.

    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart

    The ability to spontaneously transpose a piece into a different key could almost serve as a definition of musical skill.
     
    Not really. Relative pitch is but one aspect of musicianship, and it’s standard fare for Classical and session musicians.

    A good jazz piano player will have little trouble learning more straightforward Chopin tunes by ear and can probably even learn some Rachmaninoff preludes and etudes by listening. Doing so might take a couple hours.
     
    Hahaha. You are funny.

    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.
     
    And funnier, still.

    On what, pray tell, are you basing these absurd and manifestly false assertions? You are wrong on EVERY count, and yet here you are saying it with full confidence. Remarkable.
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  133. @Steve Sailer
    Contemporary jazz musicians tend to be outstanding technicians, more so than in the past. Stravinsky's 1945 Ebony Concerto for the Woody Herman jazz band was very hard for 1945 big band musicians to play, but the current band playing under the Woody Herman name has no problem with it.

    Maybe that’s because big bands were so popular then that they had to hire pretty much whoever they could get to do a gig. Whereas now, the jazz players that you hear tend to be signed with records and doing the festival circuit. They’ve gone through various filters, including formal training at music schools, that select for top skill and are used to playing only a few sets rather than being local guys doing country western or blues one night then a dance hall the next.

    But if there is some kind of musical Flynn Effect, it makes guys like Art Tatum, who is probably still unsurpassed in technical skill, even more impressive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My father in law was touring cross country as a big band tuba player in the summer of 1945 after his sophomore year in high school because the real musicians were in the military.
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  134. @Negrolphin Pool
    Maybe that's because big bands were so popular then that they had to hire pretty much whoever they could get to do a gig. Whereas now, the jazz players that you hear tend to be signed with records and doing the festival circuit. They've gone through various filters, including formal training at music schools, that select for top skill and are used to playing only a few sets rather than being local guys doing country western or blues one night then a dance hall the next.

    But if there is some kind of musical Flynn Effect, it makes guys like Art Tatum, who is probably still unsurpassed in technical skill, even more impressive.

    My father in law was touring cross country as a big band tuba player in the summer of 1945 after his sophomore year in high school because the real musicians were in the military.

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  135. Ragno says:

    This reality harks back to what so many black children are taught by our parents: that we have to “work twice as hard to earn half as much”.

    Like most of the Wisdom Of Our Time, not just wrong but the reverse of actual reality.

    Ask any white person who’s had to end up doing the work for that week’s AA hire in order not to tweak the wrath of Human Resources.

    But surely you guessed as much after reading that Beyonce is “the most beloved artist on the face of the planet”…..

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  136. Ragno says:
    @Tiny Duck’s Gay Mom
    The United States of America should be renamed to: The Dr. Martin Luther King Jr Country

    North America should be renamed to... Northern Dr. King Land

    Earth should be renamed to ... Planet MLK

    Wouldn’t a simple, all-purpose Boolieland work just as well?

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  137. @D. K.
    I love that album (especially "Romeo and Juliet")!

    I like that, but Skateaway is my favorite off of Making Movies

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  138. @Lot
    Since I never heard of him, I decided to read the lyrics of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly album, which wikipedia says is his best regarded. (I know better than to subject myself to the actual "music.")

    From the opening track:

    When I get signed, homie I'mma act a fool
    Hit the dance floor, strobe lights in the room
    Snatch your little secretary bitch for the homies
    Blue eyed devil with a fat ass monkey
    I'mma buy a brand new Caddy on fours
    Trunk the hood up, two times, deuce four
    Platinum on everything, platinum on wedding ring
    Married to the game, made a bad bitch yours
    When I get signed homie I'mma buy a strap
    Straight from the CIA, set it on my lap
    Take a few M-16s to the hood
    Pass 'em all out on the block, what's good?
     
    From King Kunta

    I got a bone to pick
    I don't want you monkey mouth motherfuckers sittin' in my throne again
    (Aye aye nigga what's happenin' nigga, K Dot back in the hood nigga)
    I'm mad (He mad), but I ain't stressin'
    True friends, one question
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him (King Kunta) Kunta
    Black man taking no losses
    Bitch where you when I was walkin'?
    Now I run the game, got the whole world talkin' (King Kunta)
    Everybody wanna cut the legs off him
     
    From "The Blacker the Berry"

    Six in the mornin', fire in the street
    Burn, baby burn, that's all I wanna see
    And sometimes I get off watchin' you die in vain
    It's such a shame they may call me crazy
    They may say I suffer from schizophrenia or somethin'
    But homie you made me
    Black don't crack my nigga
     
    From "Hood Politics"

    I been A-1 since day one, you niggas boo boo
    Your home boy, your block that you're from, boo boo
    Lil hoes you went to school with, boo boo
    Baby mama and your new bitch, boo boo
    We was in the hood, 14 with the deuce deuce
    14 years later going hard, like we used to on the dead homies
    On the dead homies
     

    Disgusting garbage. Talentless hacks spewing nursery rhymes. Yet the powers that be want to give awards/reparations to these ignorant mulignan morons. The west is DOOMED.

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  139. “…so yeah, we’ve met some black people who work hard. Also in sales, small business, factories….many fields where plenty of blacks make their reputations with hard work”

    “Totally agree. There have been dozens upon dozens of black people who worked hard at their jobs, and it’s incumbent upon us to recognize and celebrate them”

    Somebody must be drinking Kool Aid or they are naturally delusional.

    I once worked in a factory and out of a dozen or so blacks one one worked hard. The others shuffled around at slow speed citing that they didn’t need to work hard because they had black skin.

    It’s amazing how many hard working black people there are.
    For all their hard work all they are able to produce is places like Detroit, St Louis, East St Louis, Camden,Baltimore,Memphis,Cleveland,Flint,Oakland,Compton,New Orleans,South and West sides Chicago,South Bend,Newark,etc,etc. Haiti, Jamaica,Africa.

    Everywhere the African walks and rules there is chaos and dysfunction compared to White areas. And itz getting worse as their population increases.

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  140. J1234 says:
    @Gleimhart
    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I'd definitely be one to know. There have been some talented black performers, but that's about it.

    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I’d definitely be one to know.

    Scott Joplin. Louis Armstrong. Charlie Christian. I could go on, but there are probably countless unacknowledged negro musical geniuses who have been lost to history. I’m talking largely about people from the early to mid twentieth century.

    Because rap music is – and much of motown was – pretty bad, that doesn’t mean there weren’t periods of great musical productivity within black culture. Absurdities like rap gained popularity by resting on the laurels of previous black musical forms that gave black musical influence a good name. That those previous musical forms were recognized and influential around the world wasn’t arbitrary or serendipitous.

    I know that “genius” is thrown around were it shouldn’t be on the likes of Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson, but the people who invented boogie woogie (Jelly Roll Morton and such) truly had something of value to present to the world, whether it was simple or complex. Just a reminder: intelligence is not a category with which to compartmentalize people. It’s a distribution, just as Charles Murray says. This is true for every population of human beings.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    Not a genius among them. Sorry, but I don't lower my standards just to give blacks a participation trophy. You listed merely some talented performers. Joplin wrote some good ragtime stuff, and although it can be entertaining for a few minutes, it does not climb any musical heights. You'll have to show me black versions of Palestrina, J.S., Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz, Chopin, Wagner, R. Strauss, Brahms, Bruckner, Fauré, Dvorak, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Respighi, Ravel, Stravinsky, Sibelius, Martinu, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Lauridsen (to name but a few) to start talking about "black musical geniuses." Or how about, just one example? Pretty please?

    Also, I don't need any lectures about IQ or "compartmentalizing people" or Charles Murray. It's irrelevant to the subject.
    , @Negrolphin Pool

    intelligence is not a category with which to compartmentalize people. It’s a distribution
     
    Even for those of us who fancy ourselves statistically competent, this needs to always be remembered. Voxday has a post about IQ from a while back. David Robinson is listed at 138, and that is probably somewhat rigorous and reliable because, from what I understand, sports leagues are serious about due diligence on their purchases.

    Some of the musicians I listed above were unusually fluent, using words very precisely, never incorrectly as blacks trying to sound educated are wont to do, and not having the typical black inflections. It wouldn't surprise me if someone like Mulgrew Miller, a huge man like Robinson, tested in the upper 130s or higher.


    Plus, as someone else noted above, Quincy Jones is a truly great arranger. Check out his work with Sinatra on It Might As Well Be Swing. Even his pop stuff with Michael Jackson is really good, relatively speaking.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSonPl1IO9o

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  141. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @TheJester
    Money devolves to its lowest common denominator. So does culture.

    Perhaps the dye was cast on the debasement of American culture (from its European roots) when integration came to mean "Blacks" and "Whites" would meet somewhere in the middle. Diversity (driven by SJWs) means that all cultures are equal ... so, diversity (driven by SJWs) requires cultural miscegenation, does it not?

    To make this happen, it followed that white girls would corn-row their hair and pierce their ears, noses, and tongues. White youth found easy reasons to give into impulsive behaviors, including reckless sexual promiscuity. Courting degenerated into hookups; dance degenerated into twerking, and society no longer found it antisocial for women to have children out of wedlock or for a woman to have five children by five different men.

    As the black "plantation" mentality spread, ever larger numbers of ethnicities and social strata sought social and economic equality with blacks through intersectional "victimization" on the part of the White Male Patriarchy. This qualified them for black-derived social and economic privileges and outright government handouts.

    But the plan did not work. We did not "meet in the middle". We became like them; they did not become like us. They were not elevated; we were debased. The politically-incorrect question that can't be asked is, "Why?"

    P.S. I've often thought that feminism was nothing but a "Back-to-Africa" movement on the part of white women. Perhaps the same can be said for our entire culture.

    As the black “plantation” mentality spread

    Plantation was pro-family and pro-work even though it was unjust.

    It was post-plantation that turned into slash-and-burn mentality.

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  142. @Anonymous
    Ok, well, I'm not just trying to be contrarian.

    I'm being quite serious--theres an extremely competitive market for "best rapper" so, yes, I honestly think you should assume you're missing something in light of that fact.

    Before anyone straw mans, no, Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer were never considered serious rappers by fans of the medium.


    I'm not sure why this particular subject is so difficult for isteve commenters to see objectively--maybe just because they dislike the importance of rap (a perfectly reasonable opinion).

    But...I've seen more than one person say they could do what Jay-Z and Eminem do, it's just "nursery rhymes", etc. Well, no, you can't do what Eminem does and the couplet you posted does not compare to why Eminem is respected as a great rapper.


    Imagine there were some weird Bulgarian village dance culture--ok, everyone dresses up in medieval garb and there's some competitive aspect it. Now I might not know anything about this weird Bulgarian culture and I might think, "It all looks the same." But if every single person within the Bulgarian dance culture had a deep conception of who was the best and why then yeah, I'd assume there's something going on that I'm not aware of.


    So, for example, here are two VERY famous rappers who have clearly thought hard about Eminem being better than them. If there's nothing to rap, how could these people who sell millions of records sound like it kills them they aren't as good?

    "you notice in hip-hop, Eminem is the only rapper that, that nobody ever wants a problem with, including myself man. Eminem is like the most lyrically insane, even when I was going at 50, and you know and you know me and Dre wasn’t seeing eye to eye, man, I stayed away from the white dude, you know because he a problem, you know what I’m saying I understand it, you know I’m saying like Eminem I don’t think there’s a rapper he won’t slay in and you don’t even want to war with Eminem, you know he crazy.
    [Reporter:]

    He was talking about how he was going to pick fight, if he were to come at you…
    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Yeah.

    [Reporter:]
    With like an industry beef, what would you have done?

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:]
    Run.

    [Reporter:]
    For real.

    [Jayceon Terrell Taylor:] Source: LYBIO.net
    Yeah Eminem is [crazy] – you don’t want, you don’t understand- I am a hip-hop artist and I am one of the biggest ones in the world, you don’t want a beef with Eminem – he shreds, he shreds MC’s like for real, and I ain’t his best friend or nothing – I’m just saying, I understand that he, you know he can’t be seen by nobody, Jay know everybody know, you don’t mess with the white boy…

     


    For some people,” 50 Cent says, “it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists.”


    He goes on to say that Eminem is without a doubt the best and would slay anyone.

    “Hip Hop is Black music, without question, and, unfortunately for some people, it’s tough to accept that you have a White artist that does it better than Black artists,” 50 Cent said. “It is what it is. You can get like whoever you think is the best Black artist and stand them face-to-face in a room with Em and he will eat that [guy] alive. Right now if you had ’em prepare themselves, whatever way they would have to prepare themselves to come battle…I bet what I have, everything. That [guy] is meatloaf.”





    “It’s tough for me to say some of this [stuff] and not sound like a hater. But I don’t care.”


    50 Cent’s old pal with G-Unit, The Game, agrees. A video of an interview from way back when, after the Recovery album dropped, shows The Game talking about Eminem and saying he is the one rapper no one in the industry wants a problem with, including himself. The Game says when he was having problems with Eminem’s labelmates Dr. Dre and 50 Cent, that he chose to avoid Eminem.

    The Game, like 50 Cent, also brings up Jay Z in comparison to Eminem saying “Jay know” in regards to Eminem being the best, not wanting a beef with him and adds that he “shreds MCs.”


     

    If there's nothing to rap, where would people get these opinions? Why would Eminem be obsessed with Kendrick Lamar?

    "

    Eminem heard that Kendrick Lamar was the best rapper and he invited him to the studio to get him on a song," Sheeran says in the interview. "He arrived and Kendrick came with all his mates and Eminem said, 'I just want you in the studio, just you on your own and then my engineer is gonna come in and then record you doing it, but your mates aren’t allowed in.

    Kendrick did it, wrote a sick verse, and then everyone came in to listen to it. Eminem said that he did it to test Kendrick because he thought he had a ghostwriter. He then realized that he didn't then claimed [Kendrick] was the best."

    To his credit, Kendrick suspected what was going on. In 2014, he discussed the song's recording process during a radio interview. "He brought me out to Detroit, I had a show, and he brought me to the studio to do a hook... I go in, do the hook, and he's like 'I like the hook.' Then I'm like, 'Alright, cool, I'm finna dip,' then he says 'Think you could do a verse?'... The thing with Em which was crazy to me is he kicks everybody out of the studio... I took it as him kicking everybody out to see if it's really you writing those raps that you're writing."
     

    McDonald’s sells the most hamburgers than anyone so by your logic that makes their hamburger the best in the world.

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  143. @Gleimhart
    Those are the same three always trotted out by the "I'm not racist" Republicans like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh.

    okay…..I get your back handed insult…..but tell me….are they wrong?

    And hey there race baiter, here’s another one for ya…..Larry Elder…..I have more if you wanna bait me some more?

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    I can tell you are an intellectually serious person, as it is certainly obvious that those of us who don't fall for the "I know a good one" crap are "race baiters."

    But seriously, your attempt to intimidate or manipulate me is not going to have any effect, but I will enjoy watching you try anyway.
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  144. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool
    Not sure how you would define musical genius, but here are a few candidates: Art Tatum, Errol Garner, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, Thelonius Monk, Mulgrew Miller and McCoy Tyner. Dexter Gordon, Wynton Kelly, Lee Morgan, both Hank and Elvin Jones and Oscar Peterson and could probably be thrown in as well. Oh, and I shouldn't forget Cecil Taylor, who may be the greatest genius on the list. But that last entry will take heavy flak even from some jazz aficionados.


    Those players all demonstrate differing kinds of genius in differing ways, but a strong case can be made for all. None are Franz Liszt or Alexander Scriabin, but neither are those two any of the above.

    You listed some talented jazz performers. Good ears, good kinesthetic coordination, and lots of practice, but at the end of the day it’s still just playing “licks” over the chord scale of the moment, and does not even halfway begin to rise to the level of “genius.”

    Tell me what great works of music any of them are responsible for. None, in fact. To be a “genius” without having any great work of music to show for it is a pretty neat trick indeed.

    As for the performing aspect of Liszt (etc.), he, Beethoven, Mozart, Bach (and others) all were amazing improvisers, a fact testified to by their contemporaries who were also accomplished musicians. We simply have no recordings of their performances since the technology was obviously not available then.

    Also, the specific genre of jazz (swing rhythms, playing “licks” over chord changes of short form songs, etc.) did not exist in Liszt’s time, so it’s kind of silly to say “Liszt wasn’t Errol Garner.” In addition to his improvisatory prowess, Liszt in fact had the ability to place the full orchestral score on his piano and, having never seen it before, play a perfect piano reduction of the whole thing right off the bat. Don’t make silly comparisons.

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  145. Gleimhart says:
    @Anonymous
    If there is any place that Blacks come close to Whites, in terms of talent, it might be music. While rap and ghetto love songs are dogshit, it has to be said that there are Black performers, arrangers, composers, lyricists that if not up to the absolute peaks of White achievement, are at least pretty good.

    Nadia Boulanger never considered Quincy Jones the peak of her pedagogical efforts, to be sure, but he was certainly a competent arranger and film composer. Marilyn Horne was never the greatest mezzo of all time, but she was certainly a legitimate operatic figure. A number of black classical musicians fill orchestra chairs and most are considered about as good as the seat would attract.

    I'm no expert on classical music and I never will be: it doesn't interest me that much. Rock guitarists I know. There are a number of black guitar players that are about as good as there are in rock, in jazz, in blues, as well as bassists and drummers and keyboard players.

    In terms of popular singers, technically, Sarah Vaughan, Dinah Washington, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat King Cole, are tough to dismiss as incompetent or gimmicky. Diana Ross is a c*** as a person, but she leaves most white modern pop singers in the dust technically. As I said I'm not a fan of Beyonce, but she can sing, as her turn on Cadillac Records proves.

    Just because a people can't run a civilization doesn't mean they are not good at music, or athletics.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qs5emQ0Jgw

    If there is any place that Blacks come close to Whites, in terms of talent, it might be music.

    That is factually incorrect.

    …it has to be said that there are Black performers, arrangers, composers, lyricists that if not up to the absolute peaks of White achievement, are at least pretty good.

    Not even halfway close to White achievement by any stretch of charity. (And I don’t know of a single lyric written by a black that could measure up to, say, Gordon Lightfoot’s Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald (for example), or to Tim Rice’s body of work.

    Nadia Boulanger never considered Quincy Jones the peak of her pedagogical efforts, to be sure, but he was certainly a competent arranger and film composer.

    So what. There are loads of White guys you’ve never even heard of who’re better arrangers and composers than Quincy Jones.

    A number of black classical musicians fill orchestra chairs and most are considered about as good as the seat would attract.

    Yes, there are some talented black performers, but I already said this in one of my other posts. Fact is, they are a minuscule percentage compared to the general population, and none surpass the thousands of White musicians who’ve been doing all that stuff for centuries now, and better, and who, in fact, invented it.

    Rock guitarists I know. There are a number of black guitar players that are about as good as there are in rock, in jazz, in blues, as well as bassists and drummers and keyboard players.

    There are more oriental guitar players (for example) who are professionally competent than there are black ones, and the White ones are still by far the best. Sorry, but there are no black versions of Tommy Emmanuel or Ana Vidovic (just two of many examples).

    Just because a people can’t run a civilization doesn’t mean they are not good at music, or athletics.

    Oh gawd, what a silly straw man. I never said that there were zero talented black musicians, and I never said anything about athletics.

    Blacks don’t measure up to White accomplishment in music. My original statement stands.

    P.S. I don’t know why you posted the Nat King Cole video.

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  146. @Tiny Duck
    Well, that and impregnating white girls

    The truth is that Black excellence woke up the mainstream. As usual People of Color create and whites enjoy

    You couldn't guck with this guys swag

    https://www.youtube.com/user/JemelOneFive/videos?disable_polymer=1

    And another thing tiny dick michael jackson is mediocre in the mediocre category of pop songs. Its the hype that gets them played so much we tap our feet but no ones going to go and put a michael jackson album on the stereo. the lyrics are not even mediocre they high school quality telenovelas. The jackson five were a lot better than michael jackson and they were b act for motown Mj is famous for making a lot of money not for any talent

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  147. Mishra says:
    @Anonymous
    If there is any place that Blacks come close to Whites, in terms of talent, it might be music. While rap and ghetto love songs are dogshit, it has to be said that there are Black performers, arrangers, composers, lyricists that if not up to the absolute peaks of White achievement, are at least pretty good.

    Nadia Boulanger never considered Quincy Jones the peak of her pedagogical efforts, to be sure, but he was certainly a competent arranger and film composer. Marilyn Horne was never the greatest mezzo of all time, but she was certainly a legitimate operatic figure. A number of black classical musicians fill orchestra chairs and most are considered about as good as the seat would attract.

    I'm no expert on classical music and I never will be: it doesn't interest me that much. Rock guitarists I know. There are a number of black guitar players that are about as good as there are in rock, in jazz, in blues, as well as bassists and drummers and keyboard players.

    In terms of popular singers, technically, Sarah Vaughan, Dinah Washington, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat King Cole, are tough to dismiss as incompetent or gimmicky. Diana Ross is a c*** as a person, but she leaves most white modern pop singers in the dust technically. As I said I'm not a fan of Beyonce, but she can sing, as her turn on Cadillac Records proves.

    Just because a people can't run a civilization doesn't mean they are not good at music, or athletics.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qs5emQ0Jgw

    Agreed; only a fool would pretend they’re not disproportionately talented in sports and performing arts.

    That being said, Sarah Vaughan was at least 50% gimmick. Gimmick, in this case, being a nice word for warbling.

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  148. Gleimhart says:
    @Anonymous
    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to. Popular classical music is all simple stuff rhythmwise.

    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic. Classical musicians don't sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)

    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to.

    Your “white professor” sounds like a liberal doofus who either doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or else is a fabrication of your imagination.

    The assertion that Classical (i.e., Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Nationalistic, 20th Century, Neo-classical, Expressionistic, Neo-Romantic, etc.) “is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all” is, quite possibly, the dumbest, most ignorant, and laughably absurd statement regarding any aspect of music that I have ever encountered. Wow! Where to begin…

    Also, it’s interesting how your “professor” only lists harmony and melody, but not counterpoint, texture, orchestration, form, range of genre, range of expression, and range of articulation and phrasing. I’m going to say, NOT a professor.

    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.

    Actually that is not true at all. Jazz has the swing rhythm, syncopation, and unmeasured rhythms that naturally occur during an improvisatory solo. None of this even begins to scale the the heights of rhythmic achievement pioneered by White composers. Syncopations, infinite variety of rhythmic formulations, irregular groupings, across the beat and/or bar groupings, overlapping rhythmic counterpoint, simultaneous (implied or notated) meters, regularly changing meters, implied meter-less and actual meter-less, etc., ALL invented by White composers. And no, we’re not talking about pieces “no one but academics listen to,” nor is all of this confined to 20th Century compositions. Yes, the great composers are performed and recorded thousands of times for general public consumption every year. Sorry to burst your bubble, or the “professor’s.”

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic.
    Either you or your professor are lying. You keep piling up stupidity upon stupidity. Have you any idea how you sound? It’d be like me weighing forth with my “expertise” about the specifics of neurosurgery.
    Classical musicians don’t sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)

    You are, quite simply, out of your everlovin’ mind. I damn near fell off my chair when I read your last assertion. Let me ask you this: How many scoring sessions have you observed or taken part in? How many symphony concert rehearsals have you observed or taken part in? I am, on a professional basis, a regular contributor to both. I know firsthand whereof I speak.

    Although they wouldn’t let you in, you really would be knocked back on your ass were you to attend a film scoring session, where all sorts of busy, active music, and very challenging music is read down perfectly upon the initial sight reading. Same for rehearsals by orchestras. The assertion that “classical musicians” are not very good sight readers is manifestly a lie. Sight reading is one of the necessary components of classical study. It is a regular thing. “Jazz guys” read lead sheets. “Jazz guys” are NOT session musicians. Really simple stuff that’s nowhere comparable to what Classical musicians and session musicians encounter. “Jazz guys” do not know a thing about the phrasing nuances and articulation required of a Classical musicians. And the “different clefs” thing is standard for doublers. There are guys in LA, New York, London, etc., who bring different instruments to each session with them, changing as indicated in the music. Double reeds, single reeds, and flutes, multiple transpositions of each, just for ONE guy. They are paid a cartage fee for all the extra carrying they have to do. Brasses, also, although not as varied as the woodwind players. And C-clefs are not “odd clefs.”

    You’re confusing “Jazz guys” with session musicians. Please don’t, and please stop embarrassing yourself with talk of your “professor.” You look ridiculous. It’s dishonest, and it’s annoying.

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    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool

    The assertion that Classical (i.e., Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Nationalistic, 20th Century, Neo-classical, Expressionistic, Neo-Romantic, etc.) “is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all” is, quite possibly, the dumbest, most ignorant, and laughably absurd statement regarding any aspect of music that I have ever encountered. Wow! Where to begin…
     
    It looks like this conversation has "struck a chord" with you for some reason. This probably won't help any. But the little Bach I've listened to — I find fugues boring — is not particularly rhythmically complex.


    Here's a rhythmic complexity test: Can you teach a random 4-year-old child to tap out the rhythm of a random 10-second snippet of song using a pencil on a desk in less than 10 minutes >90% of the time?

    Bach fugue: Yes.

    7/4 Caribbean Jazz project rendition of Night in Tunisia: Lol.
    , @Anonymous
    I am not an expert on nor am I especially interested in classical music. I listen to a few of the better known pieces here and there for light relief, I couldn't even name most of them. Nor am I a jazz expert though I did take a long Jazz Appreciation course for filer credits in community college. I have no special dog in this fight. You obviously do.

    I do know that outside of bowed string sections and double reeds most session guys are jazz guys. That's almost one hundred percent of the guitar players. All the famous LA guitar guys-Tedesco, Budimir, Ritenour, Carlton, etc-were jazz guys. None after the early fifties was a classical guitarist by training or inclination. The horn guys and the woodwind guys, except for bassoons and oboes, likewise.

    That isn't to say all jazz guys can do session work. I'm sure some would be complete fails.
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  149. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool
    The ability to spontaneously transpose a piece into a different key could almost serve as a definition of musical skill. To do so, one needs to have assimilated the relationships among notes to the point that it's reflexive.


    A good jazz piano player will have little trouble learning more straightforward Chopin tunes by ear and can probably even learn some Rachmaninoff preludes and etudes by listening. Doing so might take a couple hours.

    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.

    The ability to spontaneously transpose a piece into a different key could almost serve as a definition of musical skill.

    Not really. Relative pitch is but one aspect of musicianship, and it’s standard fare for Classical and session musicians.

    A good jazz piano player will have little trouble learning more straightforward Chopin tunes by ear and can probably even learn some Rachmaninoff preludes and etudes by listening. Doing so might take a couple hours.

    Hahaha. You are funny.

    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.

    And funnier, still.

    On what, pray tell, are you basing these absurd and manifestly false assertions? You are wrong on EVERY count, and yet here you are saying it with full confidence. Remarkable.

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool

    Not really. Relative pitch is but one aspect of musicianship, and it’s standard fare for Classical and session musicians.
     
    It's effectively the definition of musicianship. We can probably agree that expert composers are the highest musicians. And all expert composers are expert transposers whereas there are few other attributes that all expert composers share.

    I love Vladimir Horowitz as much as the next guy, but when you choke to the point of having to stop playing, mid performance, The Stars and Stripes Forever on 60 Minutes because "it's been a long time since you played it", there's a big hole there.


    On what, pray tell, are you basing these absurd and manifestly false assertions? You are wrong on EVERY count, and yet here you are saying it with full confidence. Remarkable.
     
    Me.

    You think this is funny:


    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.
     
    But I seriously doubt you can even start to refute it. I'll be a sport and cut you some massive slack. Can you show me any classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear - even with all the easily available "cheating" software that exists today?
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  150. Gleimhart says:
    @J1234

    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I’d definitely be one to know.
     
    Scott Joplin. Louis Armstrong. Charlie Christian. I could go on, but there are probably countless unacknowledged negro musical geniuses who have been lost to history. I'm talking largely about people from the early to mid twentieth century.

    Because rap music is - and much of motown was - pretty bad, that doesn't mean there weren't periods of great musical productivity within black culture. Absurdities like rap gained popularity by resting on the laurels of previous black musical forms that gave black musical influence a good name. That those previous musical forms were recognized and influential around the world wasn't arbitrary or serendipitous.

    I know that "genius" is thrown around were it shouldn't be on the likes of Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson, but the people who invented boogie woogie (Jelly Roll Morton and such) truly had something of value to present to the world, whether it was simple or complex. Just a reminder: intelligence is not a category with which to compartmentalize people. It's a distribution, just as Charles Murray says. This is true for every population of human beings.

    Not a genius among them. Sorry, but I don’t lower my standards just to give blacks a participation trophy. You listed merely some talented performers. Joplin wrote some good ragtime stuff, and although it can be entertaining for a few minutes, it does not climb any musical heights. You’ll have to show me black versions of Palestrina, J.S., Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz, Chopin, Wagner, R. Strauss, Brahms, Bruckner, Fauré, Dvorak, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Respighi, Ravel, Stravinsky, Sibelius, Martinu, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Lauridsen (to name but a few) to start talking about “black musical geniuses.” Or how about, just one example? Pretty please?

    Also, I don’t need any lectures about IQ or “compartmentalizing people” or Charles Murray. It’s irrelevant to the subject.

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    • Replies: @J1234
    Your position begs the question: Do you believe any black geniuses exist or have existed, musical or otherwise? I do, and not because I'm an apologist. Because intelligence is a distribution in any population, it would be doubtful that no black genius exists at the high end of the spectrum.

    I see Louis Armstrong as genius because his music was inspiring enough to be embraced by millions of whites who wouldn't embrace Armstrong in any other capacity. And good enough (along with music from other black musicians) to change the course of popular music. The only white musicians that could make it in popular music after Armstrong were the ones that emulated him or other black musicians, to one degree or another. Just so you know, I don't see this as a good thing or a bad thing, just a true thing.

    That doesn't mean blacks "invented" jazz, as SJW historians of today like to recite; cultural synthesis took place as it always does. Jazz couldn't have happened without blacks, though.
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  151. Gleimhart says:
    @interesting
    okay.....I get your back handed insult.....but tell me....are they wrong?

    And hey there race baiter, here's another one for ya.....Larry Elder.....I have more if you wanna bait me some more?

    I can tell you are an intellectually serious person, as it is certainly obvious that those of us who don’t fall for the “I know a good one” crap are “race baiters.”

    But seriously, your attempt to intimidate or manipulate me is not going to have any effect, but I will enjoy watching you try anyway.

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  152. @Gleimhart

    The ability to spontaneously transpose a piece into a different key could almost serve as a definition of musical skill.
     
    Not really. Relative pitch is but one aspect of musicianship, and it’s standard fare for Classical and session musicians.

    A good jazz piano player will have little trouble learning more straightforward Chopin tunes by ear and can probably even learn some Rachmaninoff preludes and etudes by listening. Doing so might take a couple hours.
     
    Hahaha. You are funny.

    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.
     
    And funnier, still.

    On what, pray tell, are you basing these absurd and manifestly false assertions? You are wrong on EVERY count, and yet here you are saying it with full confidence. Remarkable.

    Not really. Relative pitch is but one aspect of musicianship, and it’s standard fare for Classical and session musicians.

    It’s effectively the definition of musicianship. We can probably agree that expert composers are the highest musicians. And all expert composers are expert transposers whereas there are few other attributes that all expert composers share.

    I love Vladimir Horowitz as much as the next guy, but when you choke to the point of having to stop playing, mid performance, The Stars and Stripes Forever on 60 Minutes because “it’s been a long time since you played it”, there’s a big hole there.

    On what, pray tell, are you basing these absurd and manifestly false assertions? You are wrong on EVERY count, and yet here you are saying it with full confidence. Remarkable.

    Me.

    You think this is funny:

    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.

    But I seriously doubt you can even start to refute it. I’ll be a sport and cut you some massive slack. Can you show me any classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear – even with all the easily available “cheating” software that exists today?

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart

    It’s effectively the definition of musicianship.
     
    No, it is not. Not by half. It is but one element among others. With your assertion you unwittingly confess to being way out of your league on this entire subject. You look ridiculous.

    And all expert composers are expert transposers whereas there are few other attributes that all expert composers share.
     
    Again, not at all true. Transposing it one of the least of a composer’s skill set. Where are you getting all this. It is truly bizarre!

    Transposing simply is no big deal for accomplished musicians, be they performers, composers, arrangers, or orchestrators. It is a standard requirement.

    But I seriously doubt you can even start to refute it. I’ll be a sport and cut you some massive slack. Can you show me any classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear?
     
    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians. I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.

    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.

    Transcription is part of every ear training class where I studied music formally, at Berklee in Boston, and everywhere else the musical arts are seriously pursued, such as the New England Conservatory (just down the street from Berklee), at the Eastman School, at the Curtis Institute, at Juilliard, at the Royal College of Music, so on and so forth, as well as in certain types of private instruction.

    Why don’t you transcribe someone playing from the Modus Novus, by Lars Edlund, and then go through everything in the Michael L. Freedman ear training book, standard fare for all of those Classical musicians you think can’t handle a mere Art Tatum solo, and then get back to me. Eh?

    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance. As for cutting me some “massive slack,” how about you stick your massive slack. I don’t need it. I have nearly 40 years of real musical accomplishment behind me, 30 of it as a very well regarded professional in Los Angeles. Composer, arranger, orchestrator, session conductor, booth producer, score supervisor, takedown, and college level guest lecturer (UCLA and USC, mostly).

    Any questions, hot shot?
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  153. @Gleimhart

    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to.
     
    Your “white professor” sounds like a liberal doofus who either doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or else is a fabrication of your imagination.

    The assertion that Classical (i.e., Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Nationalistic, 20th Century, Neo-classical, Expressionistic, Neo-Romantic, etc.) "is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all” is, quite possibly, the dumbest, most ignorant, and laughably absurd statement regarding any aspect of music that I have ever encountered. Wow! Where to begin...

    Also, it’s interesting how your “professor” only lists harmony and melody, but not counterpoint, texture, orchestration, form, range of genre, range of expression, and range of articulation and phrasing. I’m going to say, NOT a professor.


    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.
     
    Actually that is not true at all. Jazz has the swing rhythm, syncopation, and unmeasured rhythms that naturally occur during an improvisatory solo. None of this even begins to scale the the heights of rhythmic achievement pioneered by White composers. Syncopations, infinite variety of rhythmic formulations, irregular groupings, across the beat and/or bar groupings, overlapping rhythmic counterpoint, simultaneous (implied or notated) meters, regularly changing meters, implied meter-less and actual meter-less, etc., ALL invented by White composers. And no, we’re not talking about pieces “no one but academics listen to,” nor is all of this confined to 20th Century compositions. Yes, the great composers are performed and recorded thousands of times for general public consumption every year. Sorry to burst your bubble, or the “professor’s."

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic.
    Either you or your professor are lying. You keep piling up stupidity upon stupidity. Have you any idea how you sound? It’d be like me weighing forth with my “expertise” about the specifics of neurosurgery.
    Classical musicians don’t sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)
     
    You are, quite simply, out of your everlovin’ mind. I damn near fell off my chair when I read your last assertion. Let me ask you this: How many scoring sessions have you observed or taken part in? How many symphony concert rehearsals have you observed or taken part in? I am, on a professional basis, a regular contributor to both. I know firsthand whereof I speak.

    Although they wouldn’t let you in, you really would be knocked back on your ass were you to attend a film scoring session, where all sorts of busy, active music, and very challenging music is read down perfectly upon the initial sight reading. Same for rehearsals by orchestras. The assertion that “classical musicians” are not very good sight readers is manifestly a lie. Sight reading is one of the necessary components of classical study. It is a regular thing. "Jazz guys" read lead sheets. "Jazz guys” are NOT session musicians. Really simple stuff that’s nowhere comparable to what Classical musicians and session musicians encounter. “Jazz guys” do not know a thing about the phrasing nuances and articulation required of a Classical musicians. And the "different clefs" thing is standard for doublers. There are guys in LA, New York, London, etc., who bring different instruments to each session with them, changing as indicated in the music. Double reeds, single reeds, and flutes, multiple transpositions of each, just for ONE guy. They are paid a cartage fee for all the extra carrying they have to do. Brasses, also, although not as varied as the woodwind players. And C-clefs are not “odd clefs.”

    You're confusing "Jazz guys" with session musicians. Please don't, and please stop embarrassing yourself with talk of your "professor." You look ridiculous. It's dishonest, and it's annoying.

    The assertion that Classical (i.e., Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Nationalistic, 20th Century, Neo-classical, Expressionistic, Neo-Romantic, etc.) “is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all” is, quite possibly, the dumbest, most ignorant, and laughably absurd statement regarding any aspect of music that I have ever encountered. Wow! Where to begin…

    It looks like this conversation has “struck a chord” with you for some reason. This probably won’t help any. But the little Bach I’ve listened to — I find fugues boring — is not particularly rhythmically complex.

    Here’s a rhythmic complexity test: Can you teach a random 4-year-old child to tap out the rhythm of a random 10-second snippet of song using a pencil on a desk in less than 10 minutes >90% of the time?

    Bach fugue: Yes.

    7/4 Caribbean Jazz project rendition of Night in Tunisia: Lol.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart

    It looks like this conversation has “struck a chord” with you for some reason.
     
    Yeah, I can’t imagine why people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about want to be pretend that they know what the hell they are talking about.

    This probably won’t help any. But the little Bach I’ve listened to — I find fugues boring — is not particularly rhythmically complex.
     
    You are right. It won’t help any, as I could not care less what you think about Bach, nor do you have the expertise to be talking to me about rhythm.

    Here’s a rhythmic complexity test: Can you teach a random 4-year-old child to tap out the rhythm of a random 10-second snippet of song using a pencil on a desk in less than 10 minutes >90% of the time?
    Bach fugue: Yes.
     
    Uh, no, NOT yes. Dumb test. Bach fugues are typically in three or four parts. There is at least one that I know of in two parts (very atypical for a fugue), and several in five, and at least one in six.

    And as they are fugues, that means simultaneous yet contrapuntally independent voices. “Contrapuntal” means "voice against voice,” as a matter of fact. There would simply be NO WAY AT ALL to teach that four-year-old child to “tap out the rhythm” of a Bach fugue, as even for the simplest fugue (as noted above), he’d need two pencils, and for the vast majority he would need three or four. Moreover, he would have to tap out these three or four different and varying rhythms SIMULTANEOUSLY. That this elementary fact needs to be explained to you tells me just how far in over your head you are in this discussion.

    As for your random example of the “Caribbean Jazz Project,” I can give you any number of examples by Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et cetera, that make that sound like a walk in the park. Something written in an asymmetric meter all the way through is not a big deal, even if it is a big deal for you. All one need do is count.

    In my previous post I already gave concrete examples of the types of rhythmic devices invented by White men which have not even been halfway matched by non-white men — as outrageous and offensive as this surely must be to some.

    For further study, I would recommend, as a beginning point, the following:
    The Rhythmic Structure of Music, by Cooper and Meyer
    The Original and Structure of Rhythm, by J.L. Dunk
    Harmonic Rhythm, by Joseph Swain

    After that transcribe any random bars from Sacred du Printemps, and then get back to me. How’s that for a proper “LOL”?

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  154. @J1234

    I am not aware of any black musical geniuses, and if there were, I’d definitely be one to know.
     
    Scott Joplin. Louis Armstrong. Charlie Christian. I could go on, but there are probably countless unacknowledged negro musical geniuses who have been lost to history. I'm talking largely about people from the early to mid twentieth century.

    Because rap music is - and much of motown was - pretty bad, that doesn't mean there weren't periods of great musical productivity within black culture. Absurdities like rap gained popularity by resting on the laurels of previous black musical forms that gave black musical influence a good name. That those previous musical forms were recognized and influential around the world wasn't arbitrary or serendipitous.

    I know that "genius" is thrown around were it shouldn't be on the likes of Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson, but the people who invented boogie woogie (Jelly Roll Morton and such) truly had something of value to present to the world, whether it was simple or complex. Just a reminder: intelligence is not a category with which to compartmentalize people. It's a distribution, just as Charles Murray says. This is true for every population of human beings.

    intelligence is not a category with which to compartmentalize people. It’s a distribution

    Even for those of us who fancy ourselves statistically competent, this needs to always be remembered. Voxday has a post about IQ from a while back. David Robinson is listed at 138, and that is probably somewhat rigorous and reliable because, from what I understand, sports leagues are serious about due diligence on their purchases.

    Some of the musicians I listed above were unusually fluent, using words very precisely, never incorrectly as blacks trying to sound educated are wont to do, and not having the typical black inflections. It wouldn’t surprise me if someone like Mulgrew Miller, a huge man like Robinson, tested in the upper 130s or higher.

    Plus, as someone else noted above, Quincy Jones is a truly great arranger. Check out his work with Sinatra on It Might As Well Be Swing. Even his pop stuff with Michael Jackson is really good, relatively speaking.

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  155. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    Not really. Relative pitch is but one aspect of musicianship, and it’s standard fare for Classical and session musicians.
     
    It's effectively the definition of musicianship. We can probably agree that expert composers are the highest musicians. And all expert composers are expert transposers whereas there are few other attributes that all expert composers share.

    I love Vladimir Horowitz as much as the next guy, but when you choke to the point of having to stop playing, mid performance, The Stars and Stripes Forever on 60 Minutes because "it's been a long time since you played it", there's a big hole there.


    On what, pray tell, are you basing these absurd and manifestly false assertions? You are wrong on EVERY count, and yet here you are saying it with full confidence. Remarkable.
     
    Me.

    You think this is funny:


    But few classical musicians could learn even 10 seconds of Art Tatum playing I got rhythm without spending weeks. And they would likely struggle even then.
     
    But I seriously doubt you can even start to refute it. I'll be a sport and cut you some massive slack. Can you show me any classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear - even with all the easily available "cheating" software that exists today?

    It’s effectively the definition of musicianship.

    No, it is not. Not by half. It is but one element among others. With your assertion you unwittingly confess to being way out of your league on this entire subject. You look ridiculous.

    And all expert composers are expert transposers whereas there are few other attributes that all expert composers share.

    Again, not at all true. Transposing it one of the least of a composer’s skill set. Where are you getting all this. It is truly bizarre!

    Transposing simply is no big deal for accomplished musicians, be they performers, composers, arrangers, or orchestrators. It is a standard requirement.

    But I seriously doubt you can even start to refute it. I’ll be a sport and cut you some massive slack. Can you show me any classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear?

    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians. I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.

    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.

    Transcription is part of every ear training class where I studied music formally, at Berklee in Boston, and everywhere else the musical arts are seriously pursued, such as the New England Conservatory (just down the street from Berklee), at the Eastman School, at the Curtis Institute, at Juilliard, at the Royal College of Music, so on and so forth, as well as in certain types of private instruction.

    Why don’t you transcribe someone playing from the Modus Novus, by Lars Edlund, and then go through everything in the Michael L. Freedman ear training book, standard fare for all of those Classical musicians you think can’t handle a mere Art Tatum solo, and then get back to me. Eh?

    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance. As for cutting me some “massive slack,” how about you stick your massive slack. I don’t need it. I have nearly 40 years of real musical accomplishment behind me, 30 of it as a very well regarded professional in Los Angeles. Composer, arranger, orchestrator, session conductor, booth producer, score supervisor, takedown, and college level guest lecturer (UCLA and USC, mostly).

    Any questions, hot shot?

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  156. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    The assertion that Classical (i.e., Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Nationalistic, 20th Century, Neo-classical, Expressionistic, Neo-Romantic, etc.) “is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all” is, quite possibly, the dumbest, most ignorant, and laughably absurd statement regarding any aspect of music that I have ever encountered. Wow! Where to begin…
     
    It looks like this conversation has "struck a chord" with you for some reason. This probably won't help any. But the little Bach I've listened to — I find fugues boring — is not particularly rhythmically complex.


    Here's a rhythmic complexity test: Can you teach a random 4-year-old child to tap out the rhythm of a random 10-second snippet of song using a pencil on a desk in less than 10 minutes >90% of the time?

    Bach fugue: Yes.

    7/4 Caribbean Jazz project rendition of Night in Tunisia: Lol.

    It looks like this conversation has “struck a chord” with you for some reason.

    Yeah, I can’t imagine why people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about want to be pretend that they know what the hell they are talking about.

    This probably won’t help any. But the little Bach I’ve listened to — I find fugues boring — is not particularly rhythmically complex.

    You are right. It won’t help any, as I could not care less what you think about Bach, nor do you have the expertise to be talking to me about rhythm.

    Here’s a rhythmic complexity test: Can you teach a random 4-year-old child to tap out the rhythm of a random 10-second snippet of song using a pencil on a desk in less than 10 minutes >90% of the time?
    Bach fugue: Yes.

    Uh, no, NOT yes. Dumb test. Bach fugues are typically in three or four parts. There is at least one that I know of in two parts (very atypical for a fugue), and several in five, and at least one in six.

    And as they are fugues, that means simultaneous yet contrapuntally independent voices. “Contrapuntal” means “voice against voice,” as a matter of fact. There would simply be NO WAY AT ALL to teach that four-year-old child to “tap out the rhythm” of a Bach fugue, as even for the simplest fugue (as noted above), he’d need two pencils, and for the vast majority he would need three or four. Moreover, he would have to tap out these three or four different and varying rhythms SIMULTANEOUSLY. That this elementary fact needs to be explained to you tells me just how far in over your head you are in this discussion.

    As for your random example of the “Caribbean Jazz Project,” I can give you any number of examples by Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et cetera, that make that sound like a walk in the park. Something written in an asymmetric meter all the way through is not a big deal, even if it is a big deal for you. All one need do is count.

    In my previous post I already gave concrete examples of the types of rhythmic devices invented by White men which have not even been halfway matched by non-white men — as outrageous and offensive as this surely must be to some.

    For further study, I would recommend, as a beginning point, the following:
    The Rhythmic Structure of Music, by Cooper and Meyer
    The Original and Structure of Rhythm, by J.L. Dunk
    Harmonic Rhythm, by Joseph Swain

    After that transcribe any random bars from Sacred du Printemps, and then get back to me. How’s that for a proper “LOL”?

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool

    There would simply be NO WAY AT ALL to teach that four-year-old child to “tap out the rhythm” of a Bach fugue, as even for the simplest fugue (as noted above), he’d need two pencils, and for the vast majority he would need three or four. Moreover, he would have to tap out these three or four different and varying rhythms SIMULTANEOUSLY. That this elementary fact needs to be explained to you tells me just how far in over your head you are in this discussion.
     
    I said pencil, not pencils. So that would naturally limit the rhythm to the left or right-hand part. If you want to make it a two-pencil test, then we would have to raise the age to maybe 10 or 12. We could then just take a transcription of what the CJP's drummer is doing. The point would still stand.

    As for your random example of the “Caribbean Jazz Project,” I can give you any number of examples by Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et cetera, that make that sound like a walk in the park.
     
    Fair enough. But going back to the music professor's original point, a lot of the classical stuff that you actually see being played at local symphonies and pops shows etc isn't that rhythmically complex whereas a lot of jazz is. The point might not universally hold, but it's not exactly wrong either. And its far from the most ignorant thing ever.
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  157. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gleimhart

    A white professor of Jazz made an interesting point to me once. Classical music is very sophisticated in terms of melody and harmony, but it is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all, except for a few modern pieces no one but academics listen to.
     
    Your “white professor” sounds like a liberal doofus who either doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or else is a fabrication of your imagination.

    The assertion that Classical (i.e., Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Nationalistic, 20th Century, Neo-classical, Expressionistic, Neo-Romantic, etc.) "is not particularly sophisticated in terms of rhythm at all” is, quite possibly, the dumbest, most ignorant, and laughably absurd statement regarding any aspect of music that I have ever encountered. Wow! Where to begin...

    Also, it’s interesting how your “professor” only lists harmony and melody, but not counterpoint, texture, orchestration, form, range of genre, range of expression, and range of articulation and phrasing. I’m going to say, NOT a professor.


    In jazz, one has some extraordinarily complicated rhythm one can find without looking all that hard.
     
    Actually that is not true at all. Jazz has the swing rhythm, syncopation, and unmeasured rhythms that naturally occur during an improvisatory solo. None of this even begins to scale the the heights of rhythmic achievement pioneered by White composers. Syncopations, infinite variety of rhythmic formulations, irregular groupings, across the beat and/or bar groupings, overlapping rhythmic counterpoint, simultaneous (implied or notated) meters, regularly changing meters, implied meter-less and actual meter-less, etc., ALL invented by White composers. And no, we’re not talking about pieces “no one but academics listen to,” nor is all of this confined to 20th Century compositions. Yes, the great composers are performed and recorded thousands of times for general public consumption every year. Sorry to burst your bubble, or the “professor’s."

    He also commented that any of his better piano students could play all but the most tortuous classical pieces better than most of the classical conservatory students could if they had never seen that particular piece before and were asked to do it live, sightreading it for the first time. His guys could at least get through it passably whereas the classical guys mostly would choke up and panic.
    Either you or your professor are lying. You keep piling up stupidity upon stupidity. Have you any idea how you sound? It’d be like me weighing forth with my “expertise” about the specifics of neurosurgery.
    Classical musicians don’t sightread very well, jazz guys often earn their bread and butter doing session work where they have to sightread, transpose keys on the fly, and read stuff in odd clefs (you might be handed a piece for viola or cello and have to play it in a different key.)
     
    You are, quite simply, out of your everlovin’ mind. I damn near fell off my chair when I read your last assertion. Let me ask you this: How many scoring sessions have you observed or taken part in? How many symphony concert rehearsals have you observed or taken part in? I am, on a professional basis, a regular contributor to both. I know firsthand whereof I speak.

    Although they wouldn’t let you in, you really would be knocked back on your ass were you to attend a film scoring session, where all sorts of busy, active music, and very challenging music is read down perfectly upon the initial sight reading. Same for rehearsals by orchestras. The assertion that “classical musicians” are not very good sight readers is manifestly a lie. Sight reading is one of the necessary components of classical study. It is a regular thing. "Jazz guys" read lead sheets. "Jazz guys” are NOT session musicians. Really simple stuff that’s nowhere comparable to what Classical musicians and session musicians encounter. “Jazz guys” do not know a thing about the phrasing nuances and articulation required of a Classical musicians. And the "different clefs" thing is standard for doublers. There are guys in LA, New York, London, etc., who bring different instruments to each session with them, changing as indicated in the music. Double reeds, single reeds, and flutes, multiple transpositions of each, just for ONE guy. They are paid a cartage fee for all the extra carrying they have to do. Brasses, also, although not as varied as the woodwind players. And C-clefs are not “odd clefs.”

    You're confusing "Jazz guys" with session musicians. Please don't, and please stop embarrassing yourself with talk of your "professor." You look ridiculous. It's dishonest, and it's annoying.

    I am not an expert on nor am I especially interested in classical music. I listen to a few of the better known pieces here and there for light relief, I couldn’t even name most of them. Nor am I a jazz expert though I did take a long Jazz Appreciation course for filer credits in community college. I have no special dog in this fight. You obviously do.

    I do know that outside of bowed string sections and double reeds most session guys are jazz guys. That’s almost one hundred percent of the guitar players. All the famous LA guitar guys-Tedesco, Budimir, Ritenour, Carlton, etc-were jazz guys. None after the early fifties was a classical guitarist by training or inclination. The horn guys and the woodwind guys, except for bassoons and oboes, likewise.

    That isn’t to say all jazz guys can do session work. I’m sure some would be complete fails.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    No. Session guys in LA, New York are session guys. They are specialists at session work. They play whatever you put in front of them. A trumpet player such as Rick Baptist (and a few others from the same session), one of the top session trumpet players in LA, may do two three-hour film scoring sessions with symphony orchestra on, say, a Friday, then travel to Vegas to play in a big band for the Jerry Lewis telethon. Meanwhile, several of his colleagues — whether brass, winds, percussion, strings, whatever — may do a rehearsal and concert that same day with the Hollywood Bowl orchestra playing, say, Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. Still others may go to Martin Sound in Alhambra and play some sweetening tracks for a pop ballad. So on and so forth.

    Session musicians are specialists who can change their playing style to fit the requirements of the moment. They even do this when need be within a session. For example, the Cole Porter that opens the second Indiana Jones movie, and then switch over to dramatic underscore.

    Talking about guitar players changes the subject. We may as well talk about bagpipe players then. Classical guitarist is highly specialized. Christopher Parkening is not going to shred away on a Les Paul, and a non-Classical player is not going to play Albeniz. There are a few crossover people, but they tend to be solo artists. In studio work for guitar, the Tedesco types have dozens of guitars and can likewise play in dozens of styles. Then there're some guys whose specialty is more rock oriented, some more Jazz oriented, and some of the fusion guys who can cover both pretty well. It varies. A lot of the more rock oriented ones also go out on tour as backup with whoever hires them for a particular concert series. Etc.

    The Local AFM 47 (LA chapter of the music union) book that's filled with thousands of musicians that play, I think, just about every kind of instrument that's ever been invented. Ancient. Foreign. Obscure. Instruments I've never even heard of. The first time I received my copy it amazed me.

    Anyway, in general, guys who are first and foremost, "jazz guys," tend to prefer playing nothing but that, in clubs, concerts, records, etc., like symphony musicians in most cities, for example. I knew many such types while studying music in Boston.
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  158. You are right. It won’t help any, as I could not care less what you think about Bach, nor do you have the expertise to be talking to me about rhythm.

    Ok, but that doesn’t refute the test I described above any more than calling it dumb does, my exalted expert friend.

    Uh, no, NOT yes. Dumb test.

    Actually, the test is quite clever. Maybe a four year old is too young and it makes the Bach answer no. Ok, change it to a ten year old. The point lies in demonstrating relative complexity. At some threshold of increasing skill in the pencil tapper you will get the result that Bach is “yes”, and 7/4 CJP is “no”. And it will stay that way until you increase the skill level of the 7/4 CJP tapper by many levels versus the minimum Bach-yes threshold.

    Again, not at all true. Transposing it one of the least of a composer’s skill set. Where are you getting all this. It is truly bizarre!

    One is an expert composer if and only if he is an expert transposer. And one who is an expert transposer almost always posesses the raw skills of an expert composer. Transposition is being fully in command of working in all keys. It’s a necessary and almost sufficient condition for being an expert composer*. Nearly anyone who has full command of all keys and can spontaneously transpose any piece will have expert-level composition skills by definition.

    You can argue that “to attain compositional expertise, they must study subdisciplines A through N”. But the very fact of their transpositional mastery is itself evidence of having mastered those things because the end goal of studying those things is the mastery of the relations among notes.

    My definition of transposition may be a bit more stringent than yours, however. I’m talking about ability to spontaneously transpose musical ideas to any key, in other words total mastery, of the relationships among notes, which, I suppose, you could crudely substitute for the term relative pitch.

    We’re way off into the weeds here. But I say “almost sufficient condition”. The missing part is the experience that gives the expert transposer the ability to hear the music that he wishes to create and, of course, to give it instrumental color in the case of orchestration. Once mastery of all keys — expert transposition — has been achieved, all that’s left is to accurate play what one’s mind hears. Obviously there’s more to it, but that’s the essence.

    If you want to refute that, then name all attributes that great composers share, then it can be determined if they are or are not contained in the concepts I just laid out. But it sounds like your mired in the unnecessary complexity of musical academia, which I’m sure pays nicely.

    *Taking expert composer to be broadly defined but not so much as to lose credibility. Note that expert implies mere competence not greatness.

    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians. I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.

    Art Tatum is almost universally considered to be the best jazz solo pianist. He was even held in high enough regard to have been visited in person by Vladimir Horowitz, who he reportedly made weep after Tatum answered his question about how many months he spent learning the piece he just played with, “I didn’t.” Horowitz also, perhaps apocryphally, threatened to permanently quit should Tatum take up classical music.

    So that would be much like someone arguing that jazz pianists are not much good at classical performances and proposing to support that by asking for any evidence of a jazz musician who has learned to play a Rachmaninoff piece, of which, I’m sure, many can be readily provided.

    So, yes, someone who is interested in the piano is probably going to be interested in the greatest piano player. Just as someone who is interested in basketball is probably going to be interested in Michael Jordan. If you think that’s “off-the-charts silly”, then, well, we’ll get to that.

    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.

    In high school, I was beating off to reruns of Bay Watch. Does that make me a porn star? I said Art Tatum, not Kenny G.

    Transcription is part of every ear training class where I studied music formally, at Berklee in Boston, and everywhere else the musical arts are seriously pursued, such as the New England Conservatory (just down the street from Berklee), at the Eastman School, at the Curtis Institute, at Juilliard, at the Royal College of Music, so on and so forth, as well as in certain types of private instruction.

    You’ll get a kick out of this: I don’t read music and have never taken a music class in my life.

    Why don’t you transcribe someone playing from the Modus Novus, by Lars Edlund, and then go through everything in the Michael L. Freedman ear training book, standard fare for all of those Classical musicians you think can’t handle a mere Art Tatum solo, and then get back to me. Eh?

    I think you might be mistaking assertion for evidence.

    Yeah, I can’t imagine why people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about want to be pretend that they know what the hell they are talking about.

    We’re getting really close to prop bet time here. Whadya say, loser donates $100 to our gracious host?

    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.

    As for cutting me some “massive slack,” how about you stick your massive slack. I don’t need it. I have nearly 40 years of real musical accomplishment behind me, 30 of it as a very well regarded professional in Los Angeles. Composer, arranger, orchestrator, session conductor, booth producer, score supervisor, takedown, and college level guest lecturer (UCLA and USC, mostly).

    That’s great. It means you have an ego about as big as the one currently on display. I have literally no musical accomplishments, no credentials etc. Its setting up to be a real trouncing.

    Any questions, hot shot?

    Yeah , which thing did you actually want to bet on?

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool

    If you want to refute that, then name all attributes that great composers share, then it can be determined if they are or are not contained in the concepts I just laid out.
     
    That should read "expert", not "great".
    , @Gleimhart

    Ok, but that doesn’t refute the test I described above any more than calling it dumb does, my exalted expert friend.
     
    Nor was it intended to, my unnecessarily sarcastic "friend." The refutation was given elsewhere in that same post. Don't play dumb games. It won't work.

    And stop with the Bach vs. CJP comparison. You're embarrassing yourself. You don't know what you're talking about, and I've already pointed out why your narrowly defined "test" is absurd, but you're one of those internet-y type people who simply cannot admit when you're wrong.

    And one who is an expert transposer almost always posesses the raw skills of an expert composer.
     
    NO, he doesn't. Why are you presuming to lecture me on this subject? Are you really not getting the absurdity of it? Seriously!

    Transposition is being fully in command of working in all keys.
     
    What about when you're not in a key? What is it then, expert? And what about inversion? What about reduction? What about retrograde? What about retrograde inversion? Please elaborate for me. I need a good laugh.

    Nearly anyone who has full command of all keys and can spontaneously transpose any piece will have expert-level composition skills by definition.
     
    NO, he will not. You're off your rocker. Where are you getting all this? Are you deliberately trying to get me to waste my time? I really don't understand why you are presuming to lecture me on what it takes to be a professionally competent composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You are strange.

    My definition of transposition may be a bit more stringent than yours, however.
     
    NO. You're definition of transposition is incomplete, and since you're clearly in over your head here, it is also irrelevant.

    I’m talking about ability to spontaneously transpose musical ideas to any key, in other words total mastery, of the relationships among notes, which, I suppose, you could crudely substitute for the term relative pitch.
     
    Oh gawd!

    Obviously there’s more to it, but that’s the essence.
     
    NO, it is not. I keep having to say that, so let's make this easy: Please list for me, in the general sense, your experience in composing, arranging, and orchestration.

    Insert three more paragraphs about Art Tatum, etc., using very narrow, cherry-picked and fallacious nonsense, straw-men, and a dogged determination to prove you're right even though you're arguing with an expert.
     
    Horowitz being obviously polite = Muh jazz is superior to Classical!!!

    And by the way, contrary to your silly slobbering, Art Tatum is not the "greatest player ever". You just keep piling it on.

    In high school, I was beating off to reruns of Bay Watch. Does that make me a porn star? I said Art Tatum, not Kenny G.
     
    1) Clear you are not a serious person. On a dime, you went all the way from "transposition = composing talent" to waving it away as akin to masturbation or something.

    2) Where did I say anything about Kenny G? If you're equating either one of the gentlemen I mentioned with Kenny G, we will add that to your growing list embarrassing assertions.

    3) Comparing a harmonic instrument (piano) to a melodic one (i.e., flugelhorn, trumpet, etc.) is yet another one of your absurdities. This would appear to be your speciality.

    4) All that said, I will be happy to list a few flugelhorn and/or trumpet pieces, solo and ensemble, jazz or other, and you can transcribe them for me and upload the results. Let me know if you're game, hotshot.

    You’ll get a kick out of this: I don’t read music and have never taken a music class in my life.
     
    Already knew it. And yet here you are presuming to lecture me. Must be some sort of put-on.

    I think you might be mistaking assertion for evidence.
     
    Not mistaking a single solitary thing. My intellectual clarity on this subject is perfect. So stop deflecting and let me know if you're up for the challenge, hotshot.

    We’re getting really close to prop bet time here. Whadya say, loser donates $100 to our gracious host?
     
    Don't play tough. You'll lose, and your false bravado is evident. I've already given you repeated challenges and you've deflected every single one. Take up my challenges already, and while you're at it, go try your stupid pencil test with a four-year-old or whatever-year-old on a Bach fugue. You cannot begin to comprehend the depth of a Bach fugue, as you are a tin-eared and tasteless amateur who talks out of his ass to people whose shoes you are not fit to shine.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.
     
    That's not an actual reply to what you quoted. Just more deflection.

    That’s great. It means you have an ego about as big as the one currently on display. I have literally no musical accomplishments, no credentials etc. Its setting up to be a real trouncing.
     
    The trouncing already happened in this post, and in every one of my posts to you previously. The problem here is that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, and therefore are too dumb and arrogant to understand this. Also, when you — a tin-eared, tasteless and manifestly unknowledgeable blowhard — presumes to lecture someone of my caliber and accomplishment, you don't get to lecture me on ego, son. Some self-awareness would do you some genuine good.

    Yeah , which thing did you actually want to bet on?
     
    The ones I already listed, hotshot.

    Now go away and stop wasting my time. I'm having trouble believing your actually serious about any of this. I've seen people on the internet who were real doozies, but you are one of a kind, and in this that is far from a good thing.
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  159. @Gleimhart

    It looks like this conversation has “struck a chord” with you for some reason.
     
    Yeah, I can’t imagine why people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about want to be pretend that they know what the hell they are talking about.

    This probably won’t help any. But the little Bach I’ve listened to — I find fugues boring — is not particularly rhythmically complex.
     
    You are right. It won’t help any, as I could not care less what you think about Bach, nor do you have the expertise to be talking to me about rhythm.

    Here’s a rhythmic complexity test: Can you teach a random 4-year-old child to tap out the rhythm of a random 10-second snippet of song using a pencil on a desk in less than 10 minutes >90% of the time?
    Bach fugue: Yes.
     
    Uh, no, NOT yes. Dumb test. Bach fugues are typically in three or four parts. There is at least one that I know of in two parts (very atypical for a fugue), and several in five, and at least one in six.

    And as they are fugues, that means simultaneous yet contrapuntally independent voices. “Contrapuntal” means "voice against voice,” as a matter of fact. There would simply be NO WAY AT ALL to teach that four-year-old child to “tap out the rhythm” of a Bach fugue, as even for the simplest fugue (as noted above), he’d need two pencils, and for the vast majority he would need three or four. Moreover, he would have to tap out these three or four different and varying rhythms SIMULTANEOUSLY. That this elementary fact needs to be explained to you tells me just how far in over your head you are in this discussion.

    As for your random example of the “Caribbean Jazz Project,” I can give you any number of examples by Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et cetera, that make that sound like a walk in the park. Something written in an asymmetric meter all the way through is not a big deal, even if it is a big deal for you. All one need do is count.

    In my previous post I already gave concrete examples of the types of rhythmic devices invented by White men which have not even been halfway matched by non-white men — as outrageous and offensive as this surely must be to some.

    For further study, I would recommend, as a beginning point, the following:
    The Rhythmic Structure of Music, by Cooper and Meyer
    The Original and Structure of Rhythm, by J.L. Dunk
    Harmonic Rhythm, by Joseph Swain

    After that transcribe any random bars from Sacred du Printemps, and then get back to me. How’s that for a proper “LOL”?

    There would simply be NO WAY AT ALL to teach that four-year-old child to “tap out the rhythm” of a Bach fugue, as even for the simplest fugue (as noted above), he’d need two pencils, and for the vast majority he would need three or four. Moreover, he would have to tap out these three or four different and varying rhythms SIMULTANEOUSLY. That this elementary fact needs to be explained to you tells me just how far in over your head you are in this discussion.

    I said pencil, not pencils. So that would naturally limit the rhythm to the left or right-hand part. If you want to make it a two-pencil test, then we would have to raise the age to maybe 10 or 12. We could then just take a transcription of what the CJP’s drummer is doing. The point would still stand.

    As for your random example of the “Caribbean Jazz Project,” I can give you any number of examples by Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et cetera, that make that sound like a walk in the park.

    Fair enough. But going back to the music professor’s original point, a lot of the classical stuff that you actually see being played at local symphonies and pops shows etc isn’t that rhythmically complex whereas a lot of jazz is. The point might not universally hold, but it’s not exactly wrong either. And its far from the most ignorant thing ever.

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    • Replies: @Mishra
    Although I disagree with you (mildly) about Art Tatum, I have to commend you on staying controlled and rational through repeated encounters with a fairly hysterical interlocutor. That's more than I could do.
    , @Gleimhart
    I know you said "pencil," not "pencils." I pointed this out already and you still don't understand. Are you really not getting this, or are you simply trying to make some last minute adjustments in a futile attempt to save face. All you're doing is showing that you don't know what you're talking about to the extreme. And the CJP drummer does not have to play two different but simultaneous rhythm with his fingers, while also hitting the correct notes. In music, when the degree of complexity is increased in one direction, it is necessarily, for playability and intelligibility, decreased in another. A drum set is not a clavier instrument! The point does not stand. It never stood. Why do you insist on arguing with an expert? It's bizarre.

    One pencil would not work for either the left-hand or the right-hand part. The vast majority of fugues have either three of four independent parts. That's why a four-part fugue is called a four-part fugue. And in a three-part fugue the middle part trades off between being played with the lefthand and the righthand, depending on whichever is technically optimal. Neither you nor the theoretical four-year old child could pass your test. Download a free copy of a three- or four-part fugue by Bach and start tapping out the rhythm with one pencil. Good luck!

    Your last paragraph is still insisting that the "professor" is correct in his assertion, but the "professor's" assertion was and is, standing on its own, manifestly stupid. As for blanket music statements, it is indeed one of the dumbest things I've ever encountered. It would take lots and lots of typing on my part to methodically go through the entire process of explaining why apparently. 200 years from now no one will give a crap for the CJP, but they'll still be playing and listening to Mozart.

    And by the way, the original subject here was White vs. black musical accomplishment. It sounds to me like you believe that most Jazz musicians are black, when they are in fact, not.
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  160. @Negrolphin Pool

    You are right. It won’t help any, as I could not care less what you think about Bach, nor do you have the expertise to be talking to me about rhythm.
     
    Ok, but that doesn't refute the test I described above any more than calling it dumb does, my exalted expert friend.

    Uh, no, NOT yes. Dumb test.
     
    Actually, the test is quite clever. Maybe a four year old is too young and it makes the Bach answer no. Ok, change it to a ten year old. The point lies in demonstrating relative complexity. At some threshold of increasing skill in the pencil tapper you will get the result that Bach is "yes", and 7/4 CJP is "no". And it will stay that way until you increase the skill level of the 7/4 CJP tapper by many levels versus the minimum Bach-yes threshold.

    Again, not at all true. Transposing it one of the least of a composer’s skill set. Where are you getting all this. It is truly bizarre!
     
    One is an expert composer if and only if he is an expert transposer. And one who is an expert transposer almost always posesses the raw skills of an expert composer. Transposition is being fully in command of working in all keys. It's a necessary and almost sufficient condition for being an expert composer*. Nearly anyone who has full command of all keys and can spontaneously transpose any piece will have expert-level composition skills by definition.

    You can argue that "to attain compositional expertise, they must study subdisciplines A through N". But the very fact of their transpositional mastery is itself evidence of having mastered those things because the end goal of studying those things is the mastery of the relations among notes.

    My definition of transposition may be a bit more stringent than yours, however. I'm talking about ability to spontaneously transpose musical ideas to any key, in other words total mastery, of the relationships among notes, which, I suppose, you could crudely substitute for the term relative pitch.


    We're way off into the weeds here. But I say "almost sufficient condition". The missing part is the experience that gives the expert transposer the ability to hear the music that he wishes to create and, of course, to give it instrumental color in the case of orchestration. Once mastery of all keys — expert transposition — has been achieved, all that's left is to accurate play what one's mind hears. Obviously there's more to it, but that's the essence.

    If you want to refute that, then name all attributes that great composers share, then it can be determined if they are or are not contained in the concepts I just laid out. But it sounds like your mired in the unnecessary complexity of musical academia, which I'm sure pays nicely.

    *Taking expert composer to be broadly defined but not so much as to lose credibility. Note that expert implies mere competence not greatness.

    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians. I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.
     
    Art Tatum is almost universally considered to be the best jazz solo pianist. He was even held in high enough regard to have been visited in person by Vladimir Horowitz, who he reportedly made weep after Tatum answered his question about how many months he spent learning the piece he just played with, "I didn't." Horowitz also, perhaps apocryphally, threatened to permanently quit should Tatum take up classical music.

    So that would be much like someone arguing that jazz pianists are not much good at classical performances and proposing to support that by asking for any evidence of a jazz musician who has learned to play a Rachmaninoff piece, of which, I'm sure, many can be readily provided.

    So, yes, someone who is interested in the piano is probably going to be interested in the greatest piano player. Just as someone who is interested in basketball is probably going to be interested in Michael Jordan. If you think that's "off-the-charts silly", then, well, we'll get to that.

    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.
     
    In high school, I was beating off to reruns of Bay Watch. Does that make me a porn star? I said Art Tatum, not Kenny G.

    Transcription is part of every ear training class where I studied music formally, at Berklee in Boston, and everywhere else the musical arts are seriously pursued, such as the New England Conservatory (just down the street from Berklee), at the Eastman School, at the Curtis Institute, at Juilliard, at the Royal College of Music, so on and so forth, as well as in certain types of private instruction.
     
    You'll get a kick out of this: I don't read music and have never taken a music class in my life.

    Why don’t you transcribe someone playing from the Modus Novus, by Lars Edlund, and then go through everything in the Michael L. Freedman ear training book, standard fare for all of those Classical musicians you think can’t handle a mere Art Tatum solo, and then get back to me. Eh?
     
    I think you might be mistaking assertion for evidence.

    Yeah, I can’t imagine why people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about want to be pretend that they know what the hell they are talking about.
     
    We're getting really close to prop bet time here. Whadya say, loser donates $100 to our gracious host?


    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance.
     
    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.

    As for cutting me some “massive slack,” how about you stick your massive slack. I don’t need it. I have nearly 40 years of real musical accomplishment behind me, 30 of it as a very well regarded professional in Los Angeles. Composer, arranger, orchestrator, session conductor, booth producer, score supervisor, takedown, and college level guest lecturer (UCLA and USC, mostly).
     
    That's great. It means you have an ego about as big as the one currently on display. I have literally no musical accomplishments, no credentials etc. Its setting up to be a real trouncing.


    Any questions, hot shot?

     

    Yeah , which thing did you actually want to bet on?

    If you want to refute that, then name all attributes that great composers share, then it can be determined if they are or are not contained in the concepts I just laid out.

    That should read “expert”, not “great”.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    Stop talking to be about refuting. I'm a professional composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You're not. Know your place, and stay there.

    A composer, first and foremost, must have a robust musical imagination. To that can be added plenty of other items. Most of those items you wouldn't understand, although you'd pretend to know more about than me. You remind of those Leftwing Europeans who enjoy lecturing American gun owners about the "clips" on their AR-15 "shotguns."

    Enough already.
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  161. Mishra says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    There would simply be NO WAY AT ALL to teach that four-year-old child to “tap out the rhythm” of a Bach fugue, as even for the simplest fugue (as noted above), he’d need two pencils, and for the vast majority he would need three or four. Moreover, he would have to tap out these three or four different and varying rhythms SIMULTANEOUSLY. That this elementary fact needs to be explained to you tells me just how far in over your head you are in this discussion.
     
    I said pencil, not pencils. So that would naturally limit the rhythm to the left or right-hand part. If you want to make it a two-pencil test, then we would have to raise the age to maybe 10 or 12. We could then just take a transcription of what the CJP's drummer is doing. The point would still stand.

    As for your random example of the “Caribbean Jazz Project,” I can give you any number of examples by Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et cetera, that make that sound like a walk in the park.
     
    Fair enough. But going back to the music professor's original point, a lot of the classical stuff that you actually see being played at local symphonies and pops shows etc isn't that rhythmically complex whereas a lot of jazz is. The point might not universally hold, but it's not exactly wrong either. And its far from the most ignorant thing ever.

    Although I disagree with you (mildly) about Art Tatum, I have to commend you on staying controlled and rational through repeated encounters with a fairly hysterical interlocutor. That’s more than I could do.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    You are a liar. There's nothing at all hysterical about anything I've said here. And maybe you could explain to me why it's okay for "Negrolphin Pol" — who doesn't know what in the hell he is talking about — to lecture an actual expert on the issue. I'd truly like to hear your reasoning. Are you one of those egalitarian fools? I didn't think the Unz site would have any of those.
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  162. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    There would simply be NO WAY AT ALL to teach that four-year-old child to “tap out the rhythm” of a Bach fugue, as even for the simplest fugue (as noted above), he’d need two pencils, and for the vast majority he would need three or four. Moreover, he would have to tap out these three or four different and varying rhythms SIMULTANEOUSLY. That this elementary fact needs to be explained to you tells me just how far in over your head you are in this discussion.
     
    I said pencil, not pencils. So that would naturally limit the rhythm to the left or right-hand part. If you want to make it a two-pencil test, then we would have to raise the age to maybe 10 or 12. We could then just take a transcription of what the CJP's drummer is doing. The point would still stand.

    As for your random example of the “Caribbean Jazz Project,” I can give you any number of examples by Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et cetera, that make that sound like a walk in the park.
     
    Fair enough. But going back to the music professor's original point, a lot of the classical stuff that you actually see being played at local symphonies and pops shows etc isn't that rhythmically complex whereas a lot of jazz is. The point might not universally hold, but it's not exactly wrong either. And its far from the most ignorant thing ever.

    I know you said “pencil,” not “pencils.” I pointed this out already and you still don’t understand. Are you really not getting this, or are you simply trying to make some last minute adjustments in a futile attempt to save face. All you’re doing is showing that you don’t know what you’re talking about to the extreme. And the CJP drummer does not have to play two different but simultaneous rhythm with his fingers, while also hitting the correct notes. In music, when the degree of complexity is increased in one direction, it is necessarily, for playability and intelligibility, decreased in another. A drum set is not a clavier instrument! The point does not stand. It never stood. Why do you insist on arguing with an expert? It’s bizarre.

    One pencil would not work for either the left-hand or the right-hand part. The vast majority of fugues have either three of four independent parts. That’s why a four-part fugue is called a four-part fugue. And in a three-part fugue the middle part trades off between being played with the lefthand and the righthand, depending on whichever is technically optimal. Neither you nor the theoretical four-year old child could pass your test. Download a free copy of a three- or four-part fugue by Bach and start tapping out the rhythm with one pencil. Good luck!

    Your last paragraph is still insisting that the “professor” is correct in his assertion, but the “professor’s” assertion was and is, standing on its own, manifestly stupid. As for blanket music statements, it is indeed one of the dumbest things I’ve ever encountered. It would take lots and lots of typing on my part to methodically go through the entire process of explaining why apparently. 200 years from now no one will give a crap for the CJP, but they’ll still be playing and listening to Mozart.

    And by the way, the original subject here was White vs. black musical accomplishment. It sounds to me like you believe that most Jazz musicians are black, when they are in fact, not.

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  163. Gleimhart says:
    @Anonymous
    I am not an expert on nor am I especially interested in classical music. I listen to a few of the better known pieces here and there for light relief, I couldn't even name most of them. Nor am I a jazz expert though I did take a long Jazz Appreciation course for filer credits in community college. I have no special dog in this fight. You obviously do.

    I do know that outside of bowed string sections and double reeds most session guys are jazz guys. That's almost one hundred percent of the guitar players. All the famous LA guitar guys-Tedesco, Budimir, Ritenour, Carlton, etc-were jazz guys. None after the early fifties was a classical guitarist by training or inclination. The horn guys and the woodwind guys, except for bassoons and oboes, likewise.

    That isn't to say all jazz guys can do session work. I'm sure some would be complete fails.

    No. Session guys in LA, New York are session guys. They are specialists at session work. They play whatever you put in front of them. A trumpet player such as Rick Baptist (and a few others from the same session), one of the top session trumpet players in LA, may do two three-hour film scoring sessions with symphony orchestra on, say, a Friday, then travel to Vegas to play in a big band for the Jerry Lewis telethon. Meanwhile, several of his colleagues — whether brass, winds, percussion, strings, whatever — may do a rehearsal and concert that same day with the Hollywood Bowl orchestra playing, say, Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture. Still others may go to Martin Sound in Alhambra and play some sweetening tracks for a pop ballad. So on and so forth.

    Session musicians are specialists who can change their playing style to fit the requirements of the moment. They even do this when need be within a session. For example, the Cole Porter that opens the second Indiana Jones movie, and then switch over to dramatic underscore.

    Talking about guitar players changes the subject. We may as well talk about bagpipe players then. Classical guitarist is highly specialized. Christopher Parkening is not going to shred away on a Les Paul, and a non-Classical player is not going to play Albeniz. There are a few crossover people, but they tend to be solo artists. In studio work for guitar, the Tedesco types have dozens of guitars and can likewise play in dozens of styles. Then there’re some guys whose specialty is more rock oriented, some more Jazz oriented, and some of the fusion guys who can cover both pretty well. It varies. A lot of the more rock oriented ones also go out on tour as backup with whoever hires them for a particular concert series. Etc.

    The Local AFM 47 (LA chapter of the music union) book that’s filled with thousands of musicians that play, I think, just about every kind of instrument that’s ever been invented. Ancient. Foreign. Obscure. Instruments I’ve never even heard of. The first time I received my copy it amazed me.

    Anyway, in general, guys who are first and foremost, “jazz guys,” tend to prefer playing nothing but that, in clubs, concerts, records, etc., like symphony musicians in most cities, for example. I knew many such types while studying music in Boston.

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  164. J1234 says:
    @Gleimhart
    Not a genius among them. Sorry, but I don't lower my standards just to give blacks a participation trophy. You listed merely some talented performers. Joplin wrote some good ragtime stuff, and although it can be entertaining for a few minutes, it does not climb any musical heights. You'll have to show me black versions of Palestrina, J.S., Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz, Chopin, Wagner, R. Strauss, Brahms, Bruckner, Fauré, Dvorak, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Respighi, Ravel, Stravinsky, Sibelius, Martinu, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Lauridsen (to name but a few) to start talking about "black musical geniuses." Or how about, just one example? Pretty please?

    Also, I don't need any lectures about IQ or "compartmentalizing people" or Charles Murray. It's irrelevant to the subject.

    Your position begs the question: Do you believe any black geniuses exist or have existed, musical or otherwise? I do, and not because I’m an apologist. Because intelligence is a distribution in any population, it would be doubtful that no black genius exists at the high end of the spectrum.

    I see Louis Armstrong as genius because his music was inspiring enough to be embraced by millions of whites who wouldn’t embrace Armstrong in any other capacity. And good enough (along with music from other black musicians) to change the course of popular music. The only white musicians that could make it in popular music after Armstrong were the ones that emulated him or other black musicians, to one degree or another. Just so you know, I don’t see this as a good thing or a bad thing, just a true thing.

    That doesn’t mean blacks “invented” jazz, as SJW historians of today like to recite; cultural synthesis took place as it always does. Jazz couldn’t have happened without blacks, though.

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  165. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    You are right. It won’t help any, as I could not care less what you think about Bach, nor do you have the expertise to be talking to me about rhythm.
     
    Ok, but that doesn't refute the test I described above any more than calling it dumb does, my exalted expert friend.

    Uh, no, NOT yes. Dumb test.
     
    Actually, the test is quite clever. Maybe a four year old is too young and it makes the Bach answer no. Ok, change it to a ten year old. The point lies in demonstrating relative complexity. At some threshold of increasing skill in the pencil tapper you will get the result that Bach is "yes", and 7/4 CJP is "no". And it will stay that way until you increase the skill level of the 7/4 CJP tapper by many levels versus the minimum Bach-yes threshold.

    Again, not at all true. Transposing it one of the least of a composer’s skill set. Where are you getting all this. It is truly bizarre!
     
    One is an expert composer if and only if he is an expert transposer. And one who is an expert transposer almost always posesses the raw skills of an expert composer. Transposition is being fully in command of working in all keys. It's a necessary and almost sufficient condition for being an expert composer*. Nearly anyone who has full command of all keys and can spontaneously transpose any piece will have expert-level composition skills by definition.

    You can argue that "to attain compositional expertise, they must study subdisciplines A through N". But the very fact of their transpositional mastery is itself evidence of having mastered those things because the end goal of studying those things is the mastery of the relations among notes.

    My definition of transposition may be a bit more stringent than yours, however. I'm talking about ability to spontaneously transpose musical ideas to any key, in other words total mastery, of the relationships among notes, which, I suppose, you could crudely substitute for the term relative pitch.


    We're way off into the weeds here. But I say "almost sufficient condition". The missing part is the experience that gives the expert transposer the ability to hear the music that he wishes to create and, of course, to give it instrumental color in the case of orchestration. Once mastery of all keys — expert transposition — has been achieved, all that's left is to accurate play what one's mind hears. Obviously there's more to it, but that's the essence.

    If you want to refute that, then name all attributes that great composers share, then it can be determined if they are or are not contained in the concepts I just laid out. But it sounds like your mired in the unnecessary complexity of musical academia, which I'm sure pays nicely.

    *Taking expert composer to be broadly defined but not so much as to lose credibility. Note that expert implies mere competence not greatness.

    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians. I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.
     
    Art Tatum is almost universally considered to be the best jazz solo pianist. He was even held in high enough regard to have been visited in person by Vladimir Horowitz, who he reportedly made weep after Tatum answered his question about how many months he spent learning the piece he just played with, "I didn't." Horowitz also, perhaps apocryphally, threatened to permanently quit should Tatum take up classical music.

    So that would be much like someone arguing that jazz pianists are not much good at classical performances and proposing to support that by asking for any evidence of a jazz musician who has learned to play a Rachmaninoff piece, of which, I'm sure, many can be readily provided.

    So, yes, someone who is interested in the piano is probably going to be interested in the greatest piano player. Just as someone who is interested in basketball is probably going to be interested in Michael Jordan. If you think that's "off-the-charts silly", then, well, we'll get to that.

    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.
     
    In high school, I was beating off to reruns of Bay Watch. Does that make me a porn star? I said Art Tatum, not Kenny G.

    Transcription is part of every ear training class where I studied music formally, at Berklee in Boston, and everywhere else the musical arts are seriously pursued, such as the New England Conservatory (just down the street from Berklee), at the Eastman School, at the Curtis Institute, at Juilliard, at the Royal College of Music, so on and so forth, as well as in certain types of private instruction.
     
    You'll get a kick out of this: I don't read music and have never taken a music class in my life.

    Why don’t you transcribe someone playing from the Modus Novus, by Lars Edlund, and then go through everything in the Michael L. Freedman ear training book, standard fare for all of those Classical musicians you think can’t handle a mere Art Tatum solo, and then get back to me. Eh?
     
    I think you might be mistaking assertion for evidence.

    Yeah, I can’t imagine why people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about want to be pretend that they know what the hell they are talking about.
     
    We're getting really close to prop bet time here. Whadya say, loser donates $100 to our gracious host?


    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance.
     
    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.

    As for cutting me some “massive slack,” how about you stick your massive slack. I don’t need it. I have nearly 40 years of real musical accomplishment behind me, 30 of it as a very well regarded professional in Los Angeles. Composer, arranger, orchestrator, session conductor, booth producer, score supervisor, takedown, and college level guest lecturer (UCLA and USC, mostly).
     
    That's great. It means you have an ego about as big as the one currently on display. I have literally no musical accomplishments, no credentials etc. Its setting up to be a real trouncing.


    Any questions, hot shot?

     

    Yeah , which thing did you actually want to bet on?

    Ok, but that doesn’t refute the test I described above any more than calling it dumb does, my exalted expert friend.

    Nor was it intended to, my unnecessarily sarcastic “friend.” The refutation was given elsewhere in that same post. Don’t play dumb games. It won’t work.

    And stop with the Bach vs. CJP comparison. You’re embarrassing yourself. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and I’ve already pointed out why your narrowly defined “test” is absurd, but you’re one of those internet-y type people who simply cannot admit when you’re wrong.

    And one who is an expert transposer almost always posesses the raw skills of an expert composer.

    NO, he doesn’t. Why are you presuming to lecture me on this subject? Are you really not getting the absurdity of it? Seriously!

    Transposition is being fully in command of working in all keys.

    What about when you’re not in a key? What is it then, expert? And what about inversion? What about reduction? What about retrograde? What about retrograde inversion? Please elaborate for me. I need a good laugh.

    Nearly anyone who has full command of all keys and can spontaneously transpose any piece will have expert-level composition skills by definition.

    NO, he will not. You’re off your rocker. Where are you getting all this? Are you deliberately trying to get me to waste my time? I really don’t understand why you are presuming to lecture me on what it takes to be a professionally competent composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You are strange.

    My definition of transposition may be a bit more stringent than yours, however.

    NO. You’re definition of transposition is incomplete, and since you’re clearly in over your head here, it is also irrelevant.

    I’m talking about ability to spontaneously transpose musical ideas to any key, in other words total mastery, of the relationships among notes, which, I suppose, you could crudely substitute for the term relative pitch.

    Oh gawd!

    Obviously there’s more to it, but that’s the essence.

    NO, it is not. I keep having to say that, so let’s make this easy: Please list for me, in the general sense, your experience in composing, arranging, and orchestration.

    Insert three more paragraphs about Art Tatum, etc., using very narrow, cherry-picked and fallacious nonsense, straw-men, and a dogged determination to prove you’re right even though you’re arguing with an expert.

    Horowitz being obviously polite = Muh jazz is superior to Classical!!!

    And by the way, contrary to your silly slobbering, Art Tatum is not the “greatest player ever”. You just keep piling it on.

    In high school, I was beating off to reruns of Bay Watch. Does that make me a porn star? I said Art Tatum, not Kenny G.

    1) Clear you are not a serious person. On a dime, you went all the way from “transposition = composing talent” to waving it away as akin to masturbation or something.

    2) Where did I say anything about Kenny G? If you’re equating either one of the gentlemen I mentioned with Kenny G, we will add that to your growing list embarrassing assertions.

    3) Comparing a harmonic instrument (piano) to a melodic one (i.e., flugelhorn, trumpet, etc.) is yet another one of your absurdities. This would appear to be your speciality.

    4) All that said, I will be happy to list a few flugelhorn and/or trumpet pieces, solo and ensemble, jazz or other, and you can transcribe them for me and upload the results. Let me know if you’re game, hotshot.

    You’ll get a kick out of this: I don’t read music and have never taken a music class in my life.

    Already knew it. And yet here you are presuming to lecture me. Must be some sort of put-on.

    I think you might be mistaking assertion for evidence.

    Not mistaking a single solitary thing. My intellectual clarity on this subject is perfect. So stop deflecting and let me know if you’re up for the challenge, hotshot.

    We’re getting really close to prop bet time here. Whadya say, loser donates $100 to our gracious host?

    Don’t play tough. You’ll lose, and your false bravado is evident. I’ve already given you repeated challenges and you’ve deflected every single one. Take up my challenges already, and while you’re at it, go try your stupid pencil test with a four-year-old or whatever-year-old on a Bach fugue. You cannot begin to comprehend the depth of a Bach fugue, as you are a tin-eared and tasteless amateur who talks out of his ass to people whose shoes you are not fit to shine.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.

    That’s not an actual reply to what you quoted. Just more deflection.

    That’s great. It means you have an ego about as big as the one currently on display. I have literally no musical accomplishments, no credentials etc. Its setting up to be a real trouncing.

    The trouncing already happened in this post, and in every one of my posts to you previously. The problem here is that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, and therefore are too dumb and arrogant to understand this. Also, when you — a tin-eared, tasteless and manifestly unknowledgeable blowhard — presumes to lecture someone of my caliber and accomplishment, you don’t get to lecture me on ego, son. Some self-awareness would do you some genuine good.

    Yeah , which thing did you actually want to bet on?

    The ones I already listed, hotshot.

    Now go away and stop wasting my time. I’m having trouble believing your actually serious about any of this. I’ve seen people on the internet who were real doozies, but you are one of a kind, and in this that is far from a good thing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kylie
    I've read enough about classical music and the working methods of classical composers to know you know what you're talking about. Negrolphin Pool not only doesn't know what you're talking about, he doesn't even know what he's talking about.
    , @Negrolphin Pool

    I know you said “pencil,” not “pencils.” I pointed this out already and you still don’t understand. Are you really not getting this, or are you simply trying to make some last minute adjustments in a futile attempt to save face. All you’re doing is showing that you don’t know what you’re talking about to the extreme. And the CJP drummer does not have to play two different but simultaneous rhythm with his fingers, while also hitting the correct notes. In music, when the degree of complexity is increased in one direction, it is necessarily, for playability and intelligibility, decreased in another. A drum set is not a clavier instrument! The point does not stand. It never stood. Why do you insist on arguing with an expert? It’s bizarre.

    One pencil would not work for either the left-hand or the right-hand part. The vast majority of fugues have either three of four independent parts. That’s why a four-part fugue is called a four-part fugue. And in a three-part fugue the middle part trades off between being played with the lefthand and the righthand, depending on whichever is technically optimal. Neither you nor the theoretical four-year old child could pass your test. Download a free copy of a three- or four-part fugue by Bach and start tapping out the rhythm with one pencil. Good luck!
     
    Each non-simultaneously occurring note is tapped. In the case of the band, any one-hand or one-note part or any combination thereof would be the focus. I'm not sure why you're continuing on this, the resolution to the problem of taking a potentially multi-note part and assigning it to a single percussive instrument for the purposes of determining rhythmic complexity is obvious and should have been from the first description.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about, and I’ve already pointed out why your narrowly defined “test” is absurd, but you’re one of those internet-y type people who simply cannot admit when you’re wrong.
     
    I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm shown to be. Here, see the right hand? Tap it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oFjk0HynY4

    Please put your next thousand-word wrong answer towards the bottom of any future replies. Wading through book-length autistry is tedious.

    NO, he doesn’t. Why are you presuming to lecture me on this subject? Are you really not getting the absurdity of it? Seriously!
     
    Hominem, meet Verecundiam.

    What about when you’re not in a key?
     
    Define not being in a key.

    What is it then, expert? And what about inversion? What about reduction? What about retrograde? What about retrograde inversion? Please elaborate for me. I need a good laugh.
     
    But why not list 4 more examples of superfluous gobbledygook? Is knowing the definition of 10-cent words necessary to becoming an expert composer? Can a mechanic still tear down a tranny if he doesn't know what the guy from corporate is talking about when he referred to "synergistic, next-generation smart platforms?" If someone is mainly concerned with ostentatious status striving rather than creating music, is learning those definitions anything more than trivial next to the real work of developing musical skill?

    NO, he will not. You’re off your rocker. Where are you getting all this? Are you deliberately trying to get me to waste my time? I really don’t understand why you are presuming to lecture me on what it takes to be a professionally competent composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You are strange.
     
    Ok, thanks for clarifying that. So, even if a person is something close to an expert transposer but possesses no other training or even practice, what you seem to be saying is that they could not operate anywhere near the level of an expert composer? For example, someone who is merely an expert transposer could not write a passable fugue, correct? And this would be especially true if they were ignorant of baroque music, right?

    NO. You’re definition of transposition is incomplete.
     
    Well?

    Please list for me, in the general sense, your experience in composing, arranging, and orchestration.
     
    Approximately zero. Although I’m not really talking about orchestration and arranging when I talk about possessing the fundamental skills to be an expert composer, those things are clearly different skillsets that take some time to develop and are generally considered to be separate activities, thus the different names. But developing the compositional engine — transpositional expertise — is a far more laborious task than orchestration, perhaps by an order of magnitude.

    Horowitz being obviously polite = Muh jazz is superior to Classical!!!
     
    Verecundiam, meet strawman.

    And by the way, contrary to your silly slobbering, Art Tatum is not the “greatest player ever”. You just keep piling it on.
     
    Here’s the basketball equivalent to what you just said,

    and contrary to your silly slobbering, Michael Jordan is not the ‘greatest player ever’. You just keep piling it on.
     
    Looks pretty, doesn’t it?


    1) Clear you are not a serious person. On a dime, you went all the way from “transposition = composing talent” to waving it away as akin to masturbation or something.
     
    At what level of abstraction is the conclusion that someone transcribing a Chuck-fking-Mangione solo makes them a prima facie musical badass equivalent to the conclusion that beating off to Bay Watch makes one a prima facie porn star?

    That one has done the commonplace, easily achieved thing does not imply that they are of the rarefied elite.

    But since you’re so easily confused, as you’ve shown repeatedly, I’ll send you a Pulitzer for One-Note Pop Music Transcription as a consolation prize in the mail.


    2) Where did I say anything about Kenny G? If you’re equating either one of the gentlemen I mentioned with Kenny G, we will add that to your growing list embarrassing assertions.

     

    Yeah, that’s right. Transcribing a Kenny G solo is not that much easier, in proportional terms, to transcribing 70s pop jazz relative to transcribing an Art Tatum solo. For all the obtuse condescension, it’s clear you have no idea what you’re talking about on some of these things, specifically, the ones that actually mean anything.


    3) Comparing a harmonic instrument (piano) to a melodic one (i.e., flugelhorn, trumpet, etc.) is yet another one of your absurdities. This would appear to be your speciality.

     

    Nowhere did I compare “harmonic” instruments to “melodic” ones. That “absurdity” was yours. Remember?

    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians.
    I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.


    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.

     

    Emphasis yours.


    So not only are you the one comparing “melodic” instruments with “harmonic” ones — what you, in an apparent Parkinsonian mind seizure, just accused me of doing — you’re making the spectacular claim, with imperious authority, that having transcribed some one-note 70s pop tune gives you the uber-elite skillset to transcribe an Art Tatum solo by ear. Your lack of meta-cognition, both inter- and intrapersonal, suggests dementia.


    That’s a logical leap on the order of shooting a 50 on nine at the city golf course and then concluding you're ready for the PGA tour. It’s an astonishing miscalculation that no one with a hint of real experience would make.

    4) All that said, I will be happy to list a few flugelhorn and/or trumpet pieces, solo and ensemble, jazz or other, and you can transcribe them for me and upload the results. Let me know if you’re game, hotshot.
     
    Do you play the piano as well? Because I’m not gonna play an asymmetric game, willy nilly, with some balloon head that just spent the last 3,000 words swinging his dick around. Although if you want to make an offer ahead of time, I’ll take a look, so long as I have the option to decline.

    Not mistaking a single solitary thing. My intellectual clarity on this subject is perfect. So stop deflecting and let me know if you’re up for the challenge, hotshot.
     
    Is that the argument you plan on using at the hearing to rescind your driver’s license?

    Assertion != evidence. Count = 2.

    Impaired abstract thinking: check

    Don’t play tough. You’ll lose, and your false bravado is evident. I’ve already given you repeated challenges and you’ve deflected every single one.
     
    Confabulation: check.

    That’s not an actual reply to what you quoted. Just more deflection.
     

    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.
     

     
    Diagnosis: dementia

    Bayesian inference provides a strong framework to guide initial interactions with strangers, among many other things. It’s also very helpful for analyzing betting opportunities.

    The trouncing already happened in this post, and in every one of my posts to you previously. The problem here is that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, and therefore are too dumb and arrogant to understand this.
     
    This is scary-level meta-cognitive failure. I can’t remember ever seeing Dunning-Kruger invoked, then unironically exemplified in textbook form by the writer in the same sentence. Your earlier assertions about Chuck — lol — Mangione solo transcription making you the sovereign authority on elite-level ear playing displays a similar insight vacuum.

    Listening to you talk about music is like overhearing Melissa Harris Perry explaining to a mechanic how to rebuild a tranny.

    “No, you idiot. First you remove the dress…”


    Do you play the piano? If not, it creates symmetry problems. That’s ok though, because I have an idea that involves you either saying “yes” or walking back the near entirety of your prolix posting charade. Let me know.


    **********************************************************************

    To anyone else who may read this, I’ll expand on one of my motivations in responding to this guy. Music is not science, math or anything close. Most of musical academia is a superfluous circle jerk. That doesn’t mean that it has no value. But there are ways to acquire musical expertise that are more efficient, more effective and astronomically cheaper than paying $250,000+ for a 4-year degree from a place like Berklee, UCLA or USC.

    This guy's neurotic hyper-defensiveness is due in part to my having implied but not stated outright that musical higher-ed is essentially a scam. I personally know a lot of musicians. The ones I know living in places like New York and Chicago need to take gigs like playing ballet class just to make rent. The ones in the Midwest are generally walking trainwrecks. Music is an ultra-high-variance profession in terms of income. Some guys land spots with national acts and can make really good money. Others end up in jail because they can’t pay child support. I know a few who have ended up dead. Good luck paying back law-school-priced college loans when you're 35 and your fancy degree has you playing weddings 200 miles away for $100.

    People like our Music School Ambassador here wouldn’t ever admit that the main skills necessary to become an all-around competent working professional musician, representing 90%+ of the effort, can be reduced to a rule of one-sentence’s length: Learn all the songs, in all the keys, in all the meters and all the styles. In other words, become an expert transposer.

    That’s it.

    BTW, Le sacre du printemps is very nice.
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  166. Gleimhart says:
    @Mishra
    Although I disagree with you (mildly) about Art Tatum, I have to commend you on staying controlled and rational through repeated encounters with a fairly hysterical interlocutor. That's more than I could do.

    You are a liar. There’s nothing at all hysterical about anything I’ve said here. And maybe you could explain to me why it’s okay for “Negrolphin Pol” — who doesn’t know what in the hell he is talking about — to lecture an actual expert on the issue. I’d truly like to hear your reasoning. Are you one of those egalitarian fools? I didn’t think the Unz site would have any of those.

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  167. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    If you want to refute that, then name all attributes that great composers share, then it can be determined if they are or are not contained in the concepts I just laid out.
     
    That should read "expert", not "great".

    Stop talking to be about refuting. I’m a professional composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You’re not. Know your place, and stay there.

    A composer, first and foremost, must have a robust musical imagination. To that can be added plenty of other items. Most of those items you wouldn’t understand, although you’d pretend to know more about than me. You remind of those Leftwing Europeans who enjoy lecturing American gun owners about the “clips” on their AR-15 “shotguns.”

    Enough already.

    Read More
    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool

    A composer, first and foremost, must have a robust musical imagination. To that can be added plenty of other items.
     
    I agree with that. However, would someone without a robust musical imagination be able to become an expert level transposer in the first place?

    Again, I think my view, from your perspective, may be so radical that we'll have to settle it with a bet.


    Most of those items you wouldn’t understand, although you’d pretend to know more about than me.
     
    I'm not saying and have not said that I know more than you. On the contrary, I've admitted now more than once that I know less. I am simply applying an alternative framework, which you're dismissing, off-hand, as stupid and ill considered.
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  168. Kylie says:
    @Gleimhart

    Ok, but that doesn’t refute the test I described above any more than calling it dumb does, my exalted expert friend.
     
    Nor was it intended to, my unnecessarily sarcastic "friend." The refutation was given elsewhere in that same post. Don't play dumb games. It won't work.

    And stop with the Bach vs. CJP comparison. You're embarrassing yourself. You don't know what you're talking about, and I've already pointed out why your narrowly defined "test" is absurd, but you're one of those internet-y type people who simply cannot admit when you're wrong.

    And one who is an expert transposer almost always posesses the raw skills of an expert composer.
     
    NO, he doesn't. Why are you presuming to lecture me on this subject? Are you really not getting the absurdity of it? Seriously!

    Transposition is being fully in command of working in all keys.
     
    What about when you're not in a key? What is it then, expert? And what about inversion? What about reduction? What about retrograde? What about retrograde inversion? Please elaborate for me. I need a good laugh.

    Nearly anyone who has full command of all keys and can spontaneously transpose any piece will have expert-level composition skills by definition.
     
    NO, he will not. You're off your rocker. Where are you getting all this? Are you deliberately trying to get me to waste my time? I really don't understand why you are presuming to lecture me on what it takes to be a professionally competent composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You are strange.

    My definition of transposition may be a bit more stringent than yours, however.
     
    NO. You're definition of transposition is incomplete, and since you're clearly in over your head here, it is also irrelevant.

    I’m talking about ability to spontaneously transpose musical ideas to any key, in other words total mastery, of the relationships among notes, which, I suppose, you could crudely substitute for the term relative pitch.
     
    Oh gawd!

    Obviously there’s more to it, but that’s the essence.
     
    NO, it is not. I keep having to say that, so let's make this easy: Please list for me, in the general sense, your experience in composing, arranging, and orchestration.

    Insert three more paragraphs about Art Tatum, etc., using very narrow, cherry-picked and fallacious nonsense, straw-men, and a dogged determination to prove you're right even though you're arguing with an expert.
     
    Horowitz being obviously polite = Muh jazz is superior to Classical!!!

    And by the way, contrary to your silly slobbering, Art Tatum is not the "greatest player ever". You just keep piling it on.

    In high school, I was beating off to reruns of Bay Watch. Does that make me a porn star? I said Art Tatum, not Kenny G.
     
    1) Clear you are not a serious person. On a dime, you went all the way from "transposition = composing talent" to waving it away as akin to masturbation or something.

    2) Where did I say anything about Kenny G? If you're equating either one of the gentlemen I mentioned with Kenny G, we will add that to your growing list embarrassing assertions.

    3) Comparing a harmonic instrument (piano) to a melodic one (i.e., flugelhorn, trumpet, etc.) is yet another one of your absurdities. This would appear to be your speciality.

    4) All that said, I will be happy to list a few flugelhorn and/or trumpet pieces, solo and ensemble, jazz or other, and you can transcribe them for me and upload the results. Let me know if you're game, hotshot.

    You’ll get a kick out of this: I don’t read music and have never taken a music class in my life.
     
    Already knew it. And yet here you are presuming to lecture me. Must be some sort of put-on.

    I think you might be mistaking assertion for evidence.
     
    Not mistaking a single solitary thing. My intellectual clarity on this subject is perfect. So stop deflecting and let me know if you're up for the challenge, hotshot.

    We’re getting really close to prop bet time here. Whadya say, loser donates $100 to our gracious host?
     
    Don't play tough. You'll lose, and your false bravado is evident. I've already given you repeated challenges and you've deflected every single one. Take up my challenges already, and while you're at it, go try your stupid pencil test with a four-year-old or whatever-year-old on a Bach fugue. You cannot begin to comprehend the depth of a Bach fugue, as you are a tin-eared and tasteless amateur who talks out of his ass to people whose shoes you are not fit to shine.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.
     
    That's not an actual reply to what you quoted. Just more deflection.

    That’s great. It means you have an ego about as big as the one currently on display. I have literally no musical accomplishments, no credentials etc. Its setting up to be a real trouncing.
     
    The trouncing already happened in this post, and in every one of my posts to you previously. The problem here is that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, and therefore are too dumb and arrogant to understand this. Also, when you — a tin-eared, tasteless and manifestly unknowledgeable blowhard — presumes to lecture someone of my caliber and accomplishment, you don't get to lecture me on ego, son. Some self-awareness would do you some genuine good.

    Yeah , which thing did you actually want to bet on?
     
    The ones I already listed, hotshot.

    Now go away and stop wasting my time. I'm having trouble believing your actually serious about any of this. I've seen people on the internet who were real doozies, but you are one of a kind, and in this that is far from a good thing.

    I’ve read enough about classical music and the working methods of classical composers to know you know what you’re talking about. Negrolphin Pool not only doesn’t know what you’re talking about, he doesn’t even know what he’s talking about.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    Thank you, Kylie.

    I really have never seen anything like this.
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  169. @Gleimhart

    Ok, but that doesn’t refute the test I described above any more than calling it dumb does, my exalted expert friend.
     
    Nor was it intended to, my unnecessarily sarcastic "friend." The refutation was given elsewhere in that same post. Don't play dumb games. It won't work.

    And stop with the Bach vs. CJP comparison. You're embarrassing yourself. You don't know what you're talking about, and I've already pointed out why your narrowly defined "test" is absurd, but you're one of those internet-y type people who simply cannot admit when you're wrong.

    And one who is an expert transposer almost always posesses the raw skills of an expert composer.
     
    NO, he doesn't. Why are you presuming to lecture me on this subject? Are you really not getting the absurdity of it? Seriously!

    Transposition is being fully in command of working in all keys.
     
    What about when you're not in a key? What is it then, expert? And what about inversion? What about reduction? What about retrograde? What about retrograde inversion? Please elaborate for me. I need a good laugh.

    Nearly anyone who has full command of all keys and can spontaneously transpose any piece will have expert-level composition skills by definition.
     
    NO, he will not. You're off your rocker. Where are you getting all this? Are you deliberately trying to get me to waste my time? I really don't understand why you are presuming to lecture me on what it takes to be a professionally competent composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You are strange.

    My definition of transposition may be a bit more stringent than yours, however.
     
    NO. You're definition of transposition is incomplete, and since you're clearly in over your head here, it is also irrelevant.

    I’m talking about ability to spontaneously transpose musical ideas to any key, in other words total mastery, of the relationships among notes, which, I suppose, you could crudely substitute for the term relative pitch.
     
    Oh gawd!

    Obviously there’s more to it, but that’s the essence.
     
    NO, it is not. I keep having to say that, so let's make this easy: Please list for me, in the general sense, your experience in composing, arranging, and orchestration.

    Insert three more paragraphs about Art Tatum, etc., using very narrow, cherry-picked and fallacious nonsense, straw-men, and a dogged determination to prove you're right even though you're arguing with an expert.
     
    Horowitz being obviously polite = Muh jazz is superior to Classical!!!

    And by the way, contrary to your silly slobbering, Art Tatum is not the "greatest player ever". You just keep piling it on.

    In high school, I was beating off to reruns of Bay Watch. Does that make me a porn star? I said Art Tatum, not Kenny G.
     
    1) Clear you are not a serious person. On a dime, you went all the way from "transposition = composing talent" to waving it away as akin to masturbation or something.

    2) Where did I say anything about Kenny G? If you're equating either one of the gentlemen I mentioned with Kenny G, we will add that to your growing list embarrassing assertions.

    3) Comparing a harmonic instrument (piano) to a melodic one (i.e., flugelhorn, trumpet, etc.) is yet another one of your absurdities. This would appear to be your speciality.

    4) All that said, I will be happy to list a few flugelhorn and/or trumpet pieces, solo and ensemble, jazz or other, and you can transcribe them for me and upload the results. Let me know if you're game, hotshot.

    You’ll get a kick out of this: I don’t read music and have never taken a music class in my life.
     
    Already knew it. And yet here you are presuming to lecture me. Must be some sort of put-on.

    I think you might be mistaking assertion for evidence.
     
    Not mistaking a single solitary thing. My intellectual clarity on this subject is perfect. So stop deflecting and let me know if you're up for the challenge, hotshot.

    We’re getting really close to prop bet time here. Whadya say, loser donates $100 to our gracious host?
     
    Don't play tough. You'll lose, and your false bravado is evident. I've already given you repeated challenges and you've deflected every single one. Take up my challenges already, and while you're at it, go try your stupid pencil test with a four-year-old or whatever-year-old on a Bach fugue. You cannot begin to comprehend the depth of a Bach fugue, as you are a tin-eared and tasteless amateur who talks out of his ass to people whose shoes you are not fit to shine.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.
     
    That's not an actual reply to what you quoted. Just more deflection.

    That’s great. It means you have an ego about as big as the one currently on display. I have literally no musical accomplishments, no credentials etc. Its setting up to be a real trouncing.
     
    The trouncing already happened in this post, and in every one of my posts to you previously. The problem here is that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, and therefore are too dumb and arrogant to understand this. Also, when you — a tin-eared, tasteless and manifestly unknowledgeable blowhard — presumes to lecture someone of my caliber and accomplishment, you don't get to lecture me on ego, son. Some self-awareness would do you some genuine good.

    Yeah , which thing did you actually want to bet on?
     
    The ones I already listed, hotshot.

    Now go away and stop wasting my time. I'm having trouble believing your actually serious about any of this. I've seen people on the internet who were real doozies, but you are one of a kind, and in this that is far from a good thing.

    I know you said “pencil,” not “pencils.” I pointed this out already and you still don’t understand. Are you really not getting this, or are you simply trying to make some last minute adjustments in a futile attempt to save face. All you’re doing is showing that you don’t know what you’re talking about to the extreme. And the CJP drummer does not have to play two different but simultaneous rhythm with his fingers, while also hitting the correct notes. In music, when the degree of complexity is increased in one direction, it is necessarily, for playability and intelligibility, decreased in another. A drum set is not a clavier instrument! The point does not stand. It never stood. Why do you insist on arguing with an expert? It’s bizarre.

    One pencil would not work for either the left-hand or the right-hand part. The vast majority of fugues have either three of four independent parts. That’s why a four-part fugue is called a four-part fugue. And in a three-part fugue the middle part trades off between being played with the lefthand and the righthand, depending on whichever is technically optimal. Neither you nor the theoretical four-year old child could pass your test. Download a free copy of a three- or four-part fugue by Bach and start tapping out the rhythm with one pencil. Good luck!

    Each non-simultaneously occurring note is tapped. In the case of the band, any one-hand or one-note part or any combination thereof would be the focus. I’m not sure why you’re continuing on this, the resolution to the problem of taking a potentially multi-note part and assigning it to a single percussive instrument for the purposes of determining rhythmic complexity is obvious and should have been from the first description.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about, and I’ve already pointed out why your narrowly defined “test” is absurd, but you’re one of those internet-y type people who simply cannot admit when you’re wrong.

    I’ll admit I’m wrong when I’m shown to be. Here, see the right hand? Tap it.

    Please put your next thousand-word wrong answer towards the bottom of any future replies. Wading through book-length autistry is tedious.

    NO, he doesn’t. Why are you presuming to lecture me on this subject? Are you really not getting the absurdity of it? Seriously!

    Hominem, meet Verecundiam.

    What about when you’re not in a key?

    Define not being in a key.

    What is it then, expert? And what about inversion? What about reduction? What about retrograde? What about retrograde inversion? Please elaborate for me. I need a good laugh.

    But why not list 4 more examples of superfluous gobbledygook? Is knowing the definition of 10-cent words necessary to becoming an expert composer? Can a mechanic still tear down a tranny if he doesn’t know what the guy from corporate is talking about when he referred to “synergistic, next-generation smart platforms?” If someone is mainly concerned with ostentatious status striving rather than creating music, is learning those definitions anything more than trivial next to the real work of developing musical skill?

    NO, he will not. You’re off your rocker. Where are you getting all this? Are you deliberately trying to get me to waste my time? I really don’t understand why you are presuming to lecture me on what it takes to be a professionally competent composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You are strange.

    Ok, thanks for clarifying that. So, even if a person is something close to an expert transposer but possesses no other training or even practice, what you seem to be saying is that they could not operate anywhere near the level of an expert composer? For example, someone who is merely an expert transposer could not write a passable fugue, correct? And this would be especially true if they were ignorant of baroque music, right?

    NO. You’re definition of transposition is incomplete.

    Well?

    Please list for me, in the general sense, your experience in composing, arranging, and orchestration.

    Approximately zero. Although I’m not really talking about orchestration and arranging when I talk about possessing the fundamental skills to be an expert composer, those things are clearly different skillsets that take some time to develop and are generally considered to be separate activities, thus the different names. But developing the compositional engine — transpositional expertise — is a far more laborious task than orchestration, perhaps by an order of magnitude.

    Horowitz being obviously polite = Muh jazz is superior to Classical!!!

    Verecundiam, meet strawman.

    And by the way, contrary to your silly slobbering, Art Tatum is not the “greatest player ever”. You just keep piling it on.

    Here’s the basketball equivalent to what you just said,

    and contrary to your silly slobbering, Michael Jordan is not the ‘greatest player ever’. You just keep piling it on.

    Looks pretty, doesn’t it?

    1) Clear you are not a serious person. On a dime, you went all the way from “transposition = composing talent” to waving it away as akin to masturbation or something.

    At what level of abstraction is the conclusion that someone transcribing a Chuck-fking-Mangione solo makes them a prima facie musical badass equivalent to the conclusion that beating off to Bay Watch makes one a prima facie porn star?

    That one has done the commonplace, easily achieved thing does not imply that they are of the rarefied elite.

    But since you’re so easily confused, as you’ve shown repeatedly, I’ll send you a Pulitzer for One-Note Pop Music Transcription as a consolation prize in the mail.

    2) Where did I say anything about Kenny G? If you’re equating either one of the gentlemen I mentioned with Kenny G, we will add that to your growing list embarrassing assertions.

    Yeah, that’s right. Transcribing a Kenny G solo is not that much easier, in proportional terms, to transcribing 70s pop jazz relative to transcribing an Art Tatum solo. For all the obtuse condescension, it’s clear you have no idea what you’re talking about on some of these things, specifically, the ones that actually mean anything.

    3) Comparing a harmonic instrument (piano) to a melodic one (i.e., flugelhorn, trumpet, etc.) is yet another one of your absurdities. This would appear to be your speciality.

    Nowhere did I compare “harmonic” instruments to “melodic” ones. That “absurdity” was yours. Remember?

    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians.
    I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.

    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.

    Emphasis yours.

    So not only are you the one comparing “melodic” instruments with “harmonic” ones — what you, in an apparent Parkinsonian mind seizure, just accused me of doing — you’re making the spectacular claim, with imperious authority, that having transcribed some one-note 70s pop tune gives you the uber-elite skillset to transcribe an Art Tatum solo by ear. Your lack of meta-cognition, both inter- and intrapersonal, suggests dementia.

    That’s a logical leap on the order of shooting a 50 on nine at the city golf course and then concluding you’re ready for the PGA tour. It’s an astonishing miscalculation that no one with a hint of real experience would make.

    4) All that said, I will be happy to list a few flugelhorn and/or trumpet pieces, solo and ensemble, jazz or other, and you can transcribe them for me and upload the results. Let me know if you’re game, hotshot.

    Do you play the piano as well? Because I’m not gonna play an asymmetric game, willy nilly, with some balloon head that just spent the last 3,000 words swinging his dick around. Although if you want to make an offer ahead of time, I’ll take a look, so long as I have the option to decline.

    Not mistaking a single solitary thing. My intellectual clarity on this subject is perfect. So stop deflecting and let me know if you’re up for the challenge, hotshot.

    Is that the argument you plan on using at the hearing to rescind your driver’s license?

    Assertion != evidence. Count = 2.

    Impaired abstract thinking: check

    Don’t play tough. You’ll lose, and your false bravado is evident. I’ve already given you repeated challenges and you’ve deflected every single one.

    Confabulation: check.

    That’s not an actual reply to what you quoted. Just more deflection.

    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.

    Diagnosis: dementia

    Bayesian inference provides a strong framework to guide initial interactions with strangers, among many other things. It’s also very helpful for analyzing betting opportunities.

    The trouncing already happened in this post, and in every one of my posts to you previously. The problem here is that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, and therefore are too dumb and arrogant to understand this.

    This is scary-level meta-cognitive failure. I can’t remember ever seeing Dunning-Kruger invoked, then unironically exemplified in textbook form by the writer in the same sentence. Your earlier assertions about Chuck — lol — Mangione solo transcription making you the sovereign authority on elite-level ear playing displays a similar insight vacuum.

    Listening to you talk about music is like overhearing Melissa Harris Perry explaining to a mechanic how to rebuild a tranny.

    “No, you idiot. First you remove the dress…”

    Do you play the piano? If not, it creates symmetry problems. That’s ok though, because I have an idea that involves you either saying “yes” or walking back the near entirety of your prolix posting charade. Let me know.

    **********************************************************************

    To anyone else who may read this, I’ll expand on one of my motivations in responding to this guy. Music is not science, math or anything close. Most of musical academia is a superfluous circle jerk. That doesn’t mean that it has no value. But there are ways to acquire musical expertise that are more efficient, more effective and astronomically cheaper than paying $250,000+ for a 4-year degree from a place like Berklee, UCLA or USC.

    This guy’s neurotic hyper-defensiveness is due in part to my having implied but not stated outright that musical higher-ed is essentially a scam. I personally know a lot of musicians. The ones I know living in places like New York and Chicago need to take gigs like playing ballet class just to make rent. The ones in the Midwest are generally walking trainwrecks. Music is an ultra-high-variance profession in terms of income. Some guys land spots with national acts and can make really good money. Others end up in jail because they can’t pay child support. I know a few who have ended up dead. Good luck paying back law-school-priced college loans when you’re 35 and your fancy degree has you playing weddings 200 miles away for $100.

    People like our Music School Ambassador here wouldn’t ever admit that the main skills necessary to become an all-around competent working professional musician, representing 90%+ of the effort, can be reduced to a rule of one-sentence’s length: Learn all the songs, in all the keys, in all the meters and all the styles. In other words, become an expert transposer.

    That’s it.

    BTW, Le sacre du printemps is very nice.

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    • Replies: @Gleimhart
    I knew you wouldn't shut up. Not only that, but you've opened up even more tangents.

    I’ll admit I’m wrong when I’m shown to be. Here, see the right hand? Tap it.
     
    Are ya sure? Do you promise? Okay then, here ya go:

    The example you gave is not a fugue. It is a Prelude no. 1, from Book 1 of the Well Tempered Clavier. And this is not a distinction without a difference, so don't try that crap on me. Bach's preludes are homophonic in nature, whereas a fugue is the quintessential contrapuntal expression. What this means, then, is that for the umpteenth time, YOU'RE WRONG!

    Now, according to your promise, you are ethically obligated to shut the hell up.

    In your original boast, you said:


    "Tap out the rhythm of a Bach fugue with a pencil."
     
    The only thing that remains is for you to tap out the rhythm of a Bach fugue." No more excuses. No more posing. No more trying to whittle down your original statement. No more lame attempts at bluffing. And no more obfuscation. Just stop, already.

    I will not read the rest of your overlong post. You are not self-aware. You are not serious. You're childish. You are arrogant and ignorant to the extreme, and when your many errors are pointed out, you prove neither intelligent enough nor man enough to admit that you're wrong.

    For my part, I was foolish to have ever tried to teach you anything or reason with you.

    Rank amateurs, tin-eared and tasteless, who can't even read music do not get to lecture professional caliber experts. I make my living at this. Show some decency for once. You're a walking poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect. (Read that last sentence, over and over and over again until it sinks in. The only circle jerk is the one you have with yourself every time you weigh on a subject that is way over your head.)

    Bye!

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  170. @Gleimhart
    Stop talking to be about refuting. I'm a professional composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You're not. Know your place, and stay there.

    A composer, first and foremost, must have a robust musical imagination. To that can be added plenty of other items. Most of those items you wouldn't understand, although you'd pretend to know more about than me. You remind of those Leftwing Europeans who enjoy lecturing American gun owners about the "clips" on their AR-15 "shotguns."

    Enough already.

    A composer, first and foremost, must have a robust musical imagination. To that can be added plenty of other items.

    I agree with that. However, would someone without a robust musical imagination be able to become an expert level transposer in the first place?

    Again, I think my view, from your perspective, may be so radical that we’ll have to settle it with a bet.

    Most of those items you wouldn’t understand, although you’d pretend to know more about than me.

    I’m not saying and have not said that I know more than you. On the contrary, I’ve admitted now more than once that I know less. I am simply applying an alternative framework, which you’re dismissing, off-hand, as stupid and ill considered.

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  171. This shouldn’t be necessary, but regarding the pencil-tap test of rhythmic complexity, take the top 4 search results for “Bach fugue” on YouTube that include visual representation of the music:

    This is apparently a three-part organ fugue. There is a left hand, right hand and pedals part. You can take either of those parts or, if you prefer, all three together. In the latter case, tapping only non-simultaneously struck notes yields the rhythmic pattern 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 throughout most of the piece.

    Here, we have a two-hand piano fugue. Again, either hand could be tapped separately, or both could be taken together by tapping all non-simultaneously struck notes. In this case, the latter will yield a rhythmic pattern of 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2 throughout the plurality of the piece.

    Number three was included in a post above.

    Here’s another three-part organ fugue. Again, tapping all non-simultaneously struck notes will yield the rhythm 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 throughout most of the piece.

    A typical 4-year-old should have no trouble tapping out any of those rhythms. In fact, there’s a non-zero chance that I could teach my roomate’s cat to do it if we substitute a scratch pad, a wall or a door frame for a pencil.

    That I was able to completely and correctly think this through in the approximately 10 seconds it took me to devise the test whereas the self-styled expert to whom I was responding is still unable to grasp this after 3,000 words and three days should be noted.

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  172. Gleimhart says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    I know you said “pencil,” not “pencils.” I pointed this out already and you still don’t understand. Are you really not getting this, or are you simply trying to make some last minute adjustments in a futile attempt to save face. All you’re doing is showing that you don’t know what you’re talking about to the extreme. And the CJP drummer does not have to play two different but simultaneous rhythm with his fingers, while also hitting the correct notes. In music, when the degree of complexity is increased in one direction, it is necessarily, for playability and intelligibility, decreased in another. A drum set is not a clavier instrument! The point does not stand. It never stood. Why do you insist on arguing with an expert? It’s bizarre.

    One pencil would not work for either the left-hand or the right-hand part. The vast majority of fugues have either three of four independent parts. That’s why a four-part fugue is called a four-part fugue. And in a three-part fugue the middle part trades off between being played with the lefthand and the righthand, depending on whichever is technically optimal. Neither you nor the theoretical four-year old child could pass your test. Download a free copy of a three- or four-part fugue by Bach and start tapping out the rhythm with one pencil. Good luck!
     
    Each non-simultaneously occurring note is tapped. In the case of the band, any one-hand or one-note part or any combination thereof would be the focus. I'm not sure why you're continuing on this, the resolution to the problem of taking a potentially multi-note part and assigning it to a single percussive instrument for the purposes of determining rhythmic complexity is obvious and should have been from the first description.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about, and I’ve already pointed out why your narrowly defined “test” is absurd, but you’re one of those internet-y type people who simply cannot admit when you’re wrong.
     
    I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm shown to be. Here, see the right hand? Tap it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oFjk0HynY4

    Please put your next thousand-word wrong answer towards the bottom of any future replies. Wading through book-length autistry is tedious.

    NO, he doesn’t. Why are you presuming to lecture me on this subject? Are you really not getting the absurdity of it? Seriously!
     
    Hominem, meet Verecundiam.

    What about when you’re not in a key?
     
    Define not being in a key.

    What is it then, expert? And what about inversion? What about reduction? What about retrograde? What about retrograde inversion? Please elaborate for me. I need a good laugh.
     
    But why not list 4 more examples of superfluous gobbledygook? Is knowing the definition of 10-cent words necessary to becoming an expert composer? Can a mechanic still tear down a tranny if he doesn't know what the guy from corporate is talking about when he referred to "synergistic, next-generation smart platforms?" If someone is mainly concerned with ostentatious status striving rather than creating music, is learning those definitions anything more than trivial next to the real work of developing musical skill?

    NO, he will not. You’re off your rocker. Where are you getting all this? Are you deliberately trying to get me to waste my time? I really don’t understand why you are presuming to lecture me on what it takes to be a professionally competent composer, arranger, and orchestrator. You are strange.
     
    Ok, thanks for clarifying that. So, even if a person is something close to an expert transposer but possesses no other training or even practice, what you seem to be saying is that they could not operate anywhere near the level of an expert composer? For example, someone who is merely an expert transposer could not write a passable fugue, correct? And this would be especially true if they were ignorant of baroque music, right?

    NO. You’re definition of transposition is incomplete.
     
    Well?

    Please list for me, in the general sense, your experience in composing, arranging, and orchestration.
     
    Approximately zero. Although I’m not really talking about orchestration and arranging when I talk about possessing the fundamental skills to be an expert composer, those things are clearly different skillsets that take some time to develop and are generally considered to be separate activities, thus the different names. But developing the compositional engine — transpositional expertise — is a far more laborious task than orchestration, perhaps by an order of magnitude.

    Horowitz being obviously polite = Muh jazz is superior to Classical!!!
     
    Verecundiam, meet strawman.

    And by the way, contrary to your silly slobbering, Art Tatum is not the “greatest player ever”. You just keep piling it on.
     
    Here’s the basketball equivalent to what you just said,

    and contrary to your silly slobbering, Michael Jordan is not the ‘greatest player ever’. You just keep piling it on.
     
    Looks pretty, doesn’t it?


    1) Clear you are not a serious person. On a dime, you went all the way from “transposition = composing talent” to waving it away as akin to masturbation or something.
     
    At what level of abstraction is the conclusion that someone transcribing a Chuck-fking-Mangione solo makes them a prima facie musical badass equivalent to the conclusion that beating off to Bay Watch makes one a prima facie porn star?

    That one has done the commonplace, easily achieved thing does not imply that they are of the rarefied elite.

    But since you’re so easily confused, as you’ve shown repeatedly, I’ll send you a Pulitzer for One-Note Pop Music Transcription as a consolation prize in the mail.


    2) Where did I say anything about Kenny G? If you’re equating either one of the gentlemen I mentioned with Kenny G, we will add that to your growing list embarrassing assertions.

     

    Yeah, that’s right. Transcribing a Kenny G solo is not that much easier, in proportional terms, to transcribing 70s pop jazz relative to transcribing an Art Tatum solo. For all the obtuse condescension, it’s clear you have no idea what you’re talking about on some of these things, specifically, the ones that actually mean anything.


    3) Comparing a harmonic instrument (piano) to a melodic one (i.e., flugelhorn, trumpet, etc.) is yet another one of your absurdities. This would appear to be your speciality.

     

    Nowhere did I compare “harmonic” instruments to “melodic” ones. That “absurdity” was yours. Remember?

    Asking for proof of such a very narrow and specific thing as “a Classical musician who has transcribed an Art Tatum solo by ear” is off-the-charts silly. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing about an Art Tatum solo that is beyond the aural grasp of Classical musicians.
    I know whereof I speak, son. Don’t argue.


    I was transcribing Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson solos, orchestrations by Irwin Kostal (among others), and various songs by ear, all when I was in high school for crying out loud.

     

    Emphasis yours.


    So not only are you the one comparing “melodic” instruments with “harmonic” ones — what you, in an apparent Parkinsonian mind seizure, just accused me of doing — you’re making the spectacular claim, with imperious authority, that having transcribed some one-note 70s pop tune gives you the uber-elite skillset to transcribe an Art Tatum solo by ear. Your lack of meta-cognition, both inter- and intrapersonal, suggests dementia.


    That’s a logical leap on the order of shooting a 50 on nine at the city golf course and then concluding you're ready for the PGA tour. It’s an astonishing miscalculation that no one with a hint of real experience would make.

    4) All that said, I will be happy to list a few flugelhorn and/or trumpet pieces, solo and ensemble, jazz or other, and you can transcribe them for me and upload the results. Let me know if you’re game, hotshot.
     
    Do you play the piano as well? Because I’m not gonna play an asymmetric game, willy nilly, with some balloon head that just spent the last 3,000 words swinging his dick around. Although if you want to make an offer ahead of time, I’ll take a look, so long as I have the option to decline.

    Not mistaking a single solitary thing. My intellectual clarity on this subject is perfect. So stop deflecting and let me know if you’re up for the challenge, hotshot.
     
    Is that the argument you plan on using at the hearing to rescind your driver’s license?

    Assertion != evidence. Count = 2.

    Impaired abstract thinking: check

    Don’t play tough. You’ll lose, and your false bravado is evident. I’ve already given you repeated challenges and you’ve deflected every single one.
     
    Confabulation: check.

    That’s not an actual reply to what you quoted. Just more deflection.
     

    In the future you’d be well advised to be very careful about seriously doubting someone who you know nothing about. Such folly is apt to sooner or later bite you in the ass and leave a mark — like now, for instance.

    The neat thing about Bayesian inference is how well it works.
     

     
    Diagnosis: dementia

    Bayesian inference provides a strong framework to guide initial interactions with strangers, among many other things. It’s also very helpful for analyzing betting opportunities.

    The trouncing already happened in this post, and in every one of my posts to you previously. The problem here is that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, and therefore are too dumb and arrogant to understand this.
     
    This is scary-level meta-cognitive failure. I can’t remember ever seeing Dunning-Kruger invoked, then unironically exemplified in textbook form by the writer in the same sentence. Your earlier assertions about Chuck — lol — Mangione solo transcription making you the sovereign authority on elite-level ear playing displays a similar insight vacuum.

    Listening to you talk about music is like overhearing Melissa Harris Perry explaining to a mechanic how to rebuild a tranny.

    “No, you idiot. First you remove the dress…”


    Do you play the piano? If not, it creates symmetry problems. That’s ok though, because I have an idea that involves you either saying “yes” or walking back the near entirety of your prolix posting charade. Let me know.


    **********************************************************************

    To anyone else who may read this, I’ll expand on one of my motivations in responding to this guy. Music is not science, math or anything close. Most of musical academia is a superfluous circle jerk. That doesn’t mean that it has no value. But there are ways to acquire musical expertise that are more efficient, more effective and astronomically cheaper than paying $250,000+ for a 4-year degree from a place like Berklee, UCLA or USC.

    This guy's neurotic hyper-defensiveness is due in part to my having implied but not stated outright that musical higher-ed is essentially a scam. I personally know a lot of musicians. The ones I know living in places like New York and Chicago need to take gigs like playing ballet class just to make rent. The ones in the Midwest are generally walking trainwrecks. Music is an ultra-high-variance profession in terms of income. Some guys land spots with national acts and can make really good money. Others end up in jail because they can’t pay child support. I know a few who have ended up dead. Good luck paying back law-school-priced college loans when you're 35 and your fancy degree has you playing weddings 200 miles away for $100.

    People like our Music School Ambassador here wouldn’t ever admit that the main skills necessary to become an all-around competent working professional musician, representing 90%+ of the effort, can be reduced to a rule of one-sentence’s length: Learn all the songs, in all the keys, in all the meters and all the styles. In other words, become an expert transposer.

    That’s it.

    BTW, Le sacre du printemps is very nice.

    I knew you wouldn’t shut up. Not only that, but you’ve opened up even more tangents.

    I’ll admit I’m wrong when I’m shown to be. Here, see the right hand? Tap it.

    Are ya sure? Do you promise? Okay then, here ya go:

    The example you gave is not a fugue. It is a Prelude no. 1, from Book 1 of the Well Tempered Clavier. And this is not a distinction without a difference, so don’t try that crap on me. Bach’s preludes are homophonic in nature, whereas a fugue is the quintessential contrapuntal expression. What this means, then, is that for the umpteenth time, YOU’RE WRONG!

    Now, according to your promise, you are ethically obligated to shut the hell up.

    In your original boast, you said:

    “Tap out the rhythm of a Bach fugue with a pencil.”

    The only thing that remains is for you to tap out the rhythm of a Bach fugue.” No more excuses. No more posing. No more trying to whittle down your original statement. No more lame attempts at bluffing. And no more obfuscation. Just stop, already.

    I will not read the rest of your overlong post. You are not self-aware. You are not serious. You’re childish. You are arrogant and ignorant to the extreme, and when your many errors are pointed out, you prove neither intelligent enough nor man enough to admit that you’re wrong.

    For my part, I was foolish to have ever tried to teach you anything or reason with you.

    Rank amateurs, tin-eared and tasteless, who can’t even read music do not get to lecture professional caliber experts. I make my living at this. Show some decency for once. You’re a walking poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect. (Read that last sentence, over and over and over again until it sinks in. The only circle jerk is the one you have with yourself every time you weigh on a subject that is way over your head.)

    Bye!

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  173. Gleimhart says:
    @Kylie
    I've read enough about classical music and the working methods of classical composers to know you know what you're talking about. Negrolphin Pool not only doesn't know what you're talking about, he doesn't even know what he's talking about.

    Thank you, Kylie.

    I really have never seen anything like this.

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  174. You listed some talented jazz performers. Good ears, good kinesthetic coordination, and lots of practice, but at the end of the day it’s still just playing “licks” over the chord scale of the moment, and does not even halfway begin to rise to the level of “genius.

    Tell me what great works of music any of them are responsible for. None, in fact. To be a “genius” without having any great work of music to show for it is a pretty neat trick indeed.

    Wayne Shorter, for example, is a prolific composer. He mostly writes short songs but many of his compositions, like Oriental Folk Song, Speak No Evil, Witch Hunt and many others are significant contributions to jazz. Although it is clear that none of these rise close to the heights of Rachmaninoff, Liszt. Chopin or other great European composers.

    The argument for genius would be mostly in performance. There, at least a plausible case can be made.

    Liszt in fact had the ability to place the full orchestral score on his piano and, having never seen it before, play a perfect piano reduction of the whole thing right off the bat. Don’t make silly comparisons.

    That’s formidable, and Liszt could easily be the greatest performer and one of the greatest composers of all time. However, it’s not clear who would win between him and Tatum in a straight ahead cutting contest. I would probably lean towards Liszt though.

    As you say, jazz and lick-based music was not around then. Although I’ve read that Tatum was also able to play square classical arrangements very well.

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  175. The example you gave is not a fugue. It is a Prelude no. 1, from Book 1 of the Well Tempered Clavier. And this is not a distinction without a difference, so don’t try that crap on me. Bach’s preludes are homophonic in nature, whereas a fugue is the quintessential contrapuntal expression. What this means, then, is that for the umpteenth time, YOU’RE WRONG!

    Either you’re a troll or some flavor of retard. Youtube thinks it’s a fugue, take it up with them. If the example used is causing your palsy to flare, find a Bach fugue that doesn’t. We were discussing the validity of the test, not obscure baroque naming conventions. Stay on topic.

    Then see my latest post, which contains 3 more Youtube-certified fugues, where I conclusively demonstrate that my test works as advertised and that all your name calling would have been more aptly direct inward.

    And I’m not dodging sh*t. See the post above.

    But since we can both agree that you’re impeccably credentialed, highly experienced and nigh omniscient in all things musical, and we also agree that I have no credentials whatsoever, have virtually no experience and am just some random internet trash talker, I propose the following:

    Odds 10:1, my $100 to your $1,000. Proceeds are to be sent in the form of a donation to iSteve by the loser, which he can confirm on receipt.

    I will compose a passable two-hand piano fugue of at least 3 minutes length. It will be uploaded and linked to by the time indicated in your acceptance post, should you accept, on Monday of next week. Failure to meet the deadline will mean I automatically lose. Passability will be defined as the following: Of some large number of randomly selected Americans, more than half would confuse it with something done by any well-known but unspecified composer of the baroque era.

    Whether or not the fugue is passable will be judged by iSteve. If it is judged to be passable and is submitted by the deadline, then you lose.

    Deal?

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    Because I didn't hear back from the Gleimhart by the end of the day, I'll say that this is a standing offer, but the deadline will be extended 7 days from the time of acceptance at any point in the future.

    Given the numerous assessments by him of my abilities, I feel that odds of 10:1 and the standard, described above, to which I'm being held are magnanimous. However, I am interested in getting something going. Therefore, I am more than willing to negotiate.


    I should also add that, in all the confusion, I may have failed to emphasize a critical point. The system I described in posts above will only work for the piano. The other instruments, especially so-called melodic ones, simply don't force the user to grapple with the near-infinite combinations, permutations and chord sizes that make becoming an expert transposer the paramount musicianship-building exercise that it is on the piano.
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  176. Mishra says:
    @BenKenobi
    I like you, Mishra.

    Do you have a brother named Urza?

    OMG. Finally looked it up. Now I really have to petition Ron for a name change.
    Trouble is, he gets cross with me each time I do that.

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  177. @Negrolphin Pool

    The example you gave is not a fugue. It is a Prelude no. 1, from Book 1 of the Well Tempered Clavier. And this is not a distinction without a difference, so don’t try that crap on me. Bach’s preludes are homophonic in nature, whereas a fugue is the quintessential contrapuntal expression. What this means, then, is that for the umpteenth time, YOU’RE WRONG!
     
    Either you're a troll or some flavor of retard. Youtube thinks it's a fugue, take it up with them. If the example used is causing your palsy to flare, find a Bach fugue that doesn't. We were discussing the validity of the test, not obscure baroque naming conventions. Stay on topic.

    Then see my latest post, which contains 3 more Youtube-certified fugues, where I conclusively demonstrate that my test works as advertised and that all your name calling would have been more aptly direct inward.


    And I'm not dodging sh*t. See the post above.

    But since we can both agree that you're impeccably credentialed, highly experienced and nigh omniscient in all things musical, and we also agree that I have no credentials whatsoever, have virtually no experience and am just some random internet trash talker, I propose the following:

    Odds 10:1, my $100 to your $1,000. Proceeds are to be sent in the form of a donation to iSteve by the loser, which he can confirm on receipt.

    I will compose a passable two-hand piano fugue of at least 3 minutes length. It will be uploaded and linked to by the time indicated in your acceptance post, should you accept, on Monday of next week. Failure to meet the deadline will mean I automatically lose. Passability will be defined as the following: Of some large number of randomly selected Americans, more than half would confuse it with something done by any well-known but unspecified composer of the baroque era.

    Whether or not the fugue is passable will be judged by iSteve. If it is judged to be passable and is submitted by the deadline, then you lose.

    Deal?

    Because I didn’t hear back from the Gleimhart by the end of the day, I’ll say that this is a standing offer, but the deadline will be extended 7 days from the time of acceptance at any point in the future.

    Given the numerous assessments by him of my abilities, I feel that odds of 10:1 and the standard, described above, to which I’m being held are magnanimous. However, I am interested in getting something going. Therefore, I am more than willing to negotiate.

    I should also add that, in all the confusion, I may have failed to emphasize a critical point. The system I described in posts above will only work for the piano. The other instruments, especially so-called melodic ones, simply don’t force the user to grapple with the near-infinite combinations, permutations and chord sizes that make becoming an expert transposer the paramount musicianship-building exercise that it is on the piano.

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