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From the BBC:

But the world’s most famous refugee has some surprising views on immigration.
In a speech last year he said that refugees to the European Union should ultimately return home, adding that “Europe is for Europeans”, a statement he stood by when I challenged him on it.

“European countries should take these refugees and give them education and training, and the aim is return to their own land with certain skills,” he said.

The Dalai Lama believes the end game should be to rebuild the countries people have fled. But with some 70 million people displaced across the world according to the latest figures, what if people want to stay?

“A limited number is OK, but the whole of Europe [will] eventually become Muslim country, African country – impossible,” he said. A controversial viewpoint, and a reminder that while the Dalai Lama is a spiritual figurehead he is also a politician with views and opinions like everyone else.

Somebody should ask the Dalai Lama about the increasingly popular idea that immigration is Karmic Vengeance for your ancestors’ sins.

It used to be that we were supposed to believe that Diversity Is Our Strength. But, increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.

 
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  1. And it’s a punishment that won’t end until the last white slave has died. Enjoy!

  2. Anonymous[153] • Disclaimer says:

    Omer Aziz now reinforcing the Diversity is Our Strength flank with armaments from Cato:

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Constitution, shmonstitution, giving us your country is just business!
    , @AnotherDad
    If any of that was remotely true. If the coming non-white majority is so much better ... why don't they just set up their own wonderful nation and leave us the hell alone?

    That's the part they can never quite answer. Why exactly do you have to drag us, kicking and screaming into your utopia?
    , @guest
    He cannot possibly believe that, can he? I mean, I want to be sure I'm in Clown World and not Idiocracy (yet).
    , @Hail
    Boilerplate immigrant supremacism.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    In due course, my son Marcus, I shall explain what I found out in Athens about these Greeks, and demonstrate what advantage there may be in looking into their writings (while not taking them too seriously). They are a worthless and unruly tribe. Take this as a prophecy: when those folk give us their writings they will corrupt everything. All the more if they send their doctors here. They have sworn to kill all barbarians with medicine—and they charge a fee for doing it, in order to be trusted and to work more easily. They call us barbarians, too, of course, and Opici, a dirtier name than the rest. I have forbidden you to deal with doctors.

    --Cato the Elder in a letter to his son
    , @syonredux

    America is going to be be majority brown soon, too. By 2045, whites will comprise 49.7% of the population.
     
    Try not to drool, dear boy....

    There's no need to worry though:
     
    MMMM, dunno. In my experience, when someone says there's "no need to worry," that's usually code for "you need to start worrying."

    this just means better food,
     
    The diversity-equals-better-dining cliche.....guess that I'll counter that with the import-recipes-not-people cliche.....

    And while I'm on the topic of food, why are SJWs so obsessed with gastronomic matters?Do they just sit around eating all the time?

    better literature,
     
    Yeah, everybody knows that the US-Latinx community is just bursting with literary talent. I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors.......and I'm drawing a blank here. I can't think of any US-Latinx who can withstand comparison with the likes of Poe, Henry James, Mark Twain, TS Eliot, Robert Frost, Hawthorne, Melville, Faulkner, Hemingway, Edith Wharton, Willa Cather, Wallace Stevens, Emily Dickinson, Stephen Crane, William Dean Howells, etc, etc, etc

    and a greater symphony of languages,
     
    One symphony is another man's cacophony...

    art,
     
    MMMM, let's see, this


    https://nbclatino.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/deathofrubensalazar.jpg

    Vs this


    https://uploads5.wikiart.org/images/james-mcneill-whistler/arrangement-in-grey-and-black-no-2-portrait-of-thomas-carlyle-1873.jpg

    and beauty.
     
    Dear me, back-to-back Vs.....

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg/1200px-Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg


    http://tribupedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1940s-Female-Students-Outside-Doing-Thier-Work-Drinking-Coke-700x686.jpg
  3. “We are here because you were there!”

    I don’t see the connection.

    However, if she wants the White Man’s Burden taken up again, Europe can reconquer Africa and set them back on a road to relative order and prosperity. Or at least limit their population growth.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Or at least limit their population growth
     
    Are you volunteering to slip the condoms on them?
    , @White Guy In Japan
    Leave Africa to the tender mercies of the Chinese.
  4. “The world’s most famous refugee”

    Why is Mr. Lama a refugee? Oh right, irreligious immigrants, I mean invaders from Red China drove him out. Which I guess means Tibet should have drowned Mao’s army in a Rio Grande of their own.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Of course he's a true "refugee," he's a thought leader on the CIA payroll!
    , @anonymous
    CIA trained Tibetans in insurgency warfare at Camp Hale in Colorado in the 1950s and airdropped them with weapons back into Tibet. It was calamity from there.
  5. “But, increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.”

    They’ve figured out the game now, and they can smell the winning side from half a world away.

    • Replies: @guest
    Observe the Dot Indian in the new movie Yesterday, about him appropriating Liverpuddlian culture. Or perhaps to be more accurate black American musical culture as interpreted by white Englishmen. Still, nothing Asian in there. But he passes the Beatles catalogue off as his own.

    In response to a trailer for this movie, I tried to imagine the outrage to be met with a movie about a white boy who sneaks into a crypt to steal the hands Jimi Hendrix and wear them so as to magically pass off the dead legend's guitar playing as his own. (It's a horror movie, I guess.)
    , @Ghost of Bull Moose

    ...they can smell the winning side from half a world away.
     
    And vice versa!

    A flight attendant friend told me airlines have to designate certain planes for flights to and from the subcontinent, as the spices and b.o. seep into the seats, so that passengers traveling elsewhere complain. It is impossible to get out of the upholstery.
    , @Desiderius
    He who smelt it dealt it.
  6. Steve,

    Cardinal Sarah who hails from Guinea has also called for European refugee repatriation. Sarah’s race has prevented retribution by Bishop Bergoglio of Rome (aka, Pope Francis).

    • Replies: @Alden
    Francis makes me think the old calvinists with their rantings about anti christ and scarlet woman of Rome were unto something. What if the next one’s worse?
  7. The BBC radio interview segment I heard never found time to point out that the Dalai Lama might feel that way because of a Chinese policy of genocide by replacement in his Tibet.

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
  8. @guest
    "The world's most famous refugee"

    Why is Mr. Lama a refugee? Oh right, irreligious immigrants, I mean invaders from Red China drove him out. Which I guess means Tibet should have drowned Mao's army in a Rio Grande of their own.

    Of course he’s a true “refugee,” he’s a thought leader on the CIA payroll!

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Of course he’s a true “refugee,” he’s a thought leader on the CIA payroll!
     
    Well that's very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate.
    , @fnn
    That CIA connection has likely been tenuous for about the last 20 years. Cold War with Red China is old news, and CIA is now woke and doesn't care for racism, sexism and xenophobia.
    , @getaclue
    I thought the CIA and most of the USA Deep State and Congress (Feinstein/Spy Driver, McConnel/$25 Million from the ChiComs funneled thru his wife's parents etc....) actually work for the Communists and ChiComs? Certainly you don't believe any of them work for the USA or the USA taxpayer--no ones that much of an idiot these days? Don't see that possibly ancient tenuous history as amounting to anything given the wholesale sellout to Communism we are seeing come to light here in the good ole USA itself, proving the hated Joe McCarthy was of course totally right as to the infiltration by Communist (intent on destroying the what was the country (done!)) of the Media, Entertainment, Academia, Government/St. Dept -- as we now also know from the Soviet records did in fact happen, the Dalai Lama, unlike the Pope, is not a "Liberation Theology"/Communism proponent nor it seems a liar and has personally experienced the Population Replacement type Kalergi Plan against his own country--Good Man he is! Too bad there are so few other courageous and honest leaders religious or otherwise! If he would convert would love to see him trade out for the current Pope -- no doubt he would light years better job for the Church and the World!
  9. @Anonymous
    Omer Aziz now reinforcing the Diversity is Our Strength flank with armaments from Cato:

    https://twitter.com/omeraziz12/status/1143885836431368192

    Constitution, shmonstitution, giving us your country is just business!

  10. Anonymous[472] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, Kavita Krishnan is a Marxist Leninist and a member of the politburo of the Communist Party of India. She is far more of a Westernized leftist than a South Asian in her nurture, nature notwithstanding. She keeps criticizing Hindu nationalists in India.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavita_Krishnan

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    A communist but sounds like so many globalist-capitalist Indians who call for White Nakba.
  11. His Holiness is based AF. Tibet has been Population Replaced and Sikhim was annexed despite local wishes because the Hindu Immi-Vaders cried to Momma India that they were being oppreeeeeeeessed in their new turf.
    The DL truly, profoundly “gets” it

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna

    His Holiness is based AF.
     
    Speaking of based! There's this guy Vladimir who's pretty awesome lately.

    'Liberalism's had its day': Putin attacks Western views on gay rights and multiculturalism as he claims immigrants are allowed to 'kill, plunder and rape with impunity because their rights as migrants are protected'

    The Russian president criticised Western views on gay rights, immigration and multiculturalism - which he claimed were an attack on 'traditional family values'.

    Mr Putin reserved special praise for Donald Trump for trying to stem the flow of migrants and drugs into the US

    Also blasted Angela Merkel's 'cardinal mistake' of allowed in a million refugees

     

  12. @guest
    "We are here because you were there!"

    I don't see the connection.

    However, if she wants the White Man's Burden taken up again, Europe can reconquer Africa and set them back on a road to relative order and prosperity. Or at least limit their population growth.

    Or at least limit their population growth

    Are you volunteering to slip the condoms on them?

    • Replies: @guest
    No, but if we can't turn them into dried-up feminist sluts and obese neckbearded basementdwelling incels, what is our civilization for anymore?
    , @Spooner
    @reg...or maybe he means ramp up the vaccination programs for children.
  13. How does it feel? Knowing that your daughters wombs will be conquered by the strong seed and your sons will be servants

  14. @Anonymous
    Omer Aziz now reinforcing the Diversity is Our Strength flank with armaments from Cato:

    https://twitter.com/omeraziz12/status/1143885836431368192

    If any of that was remotely true. If the coming non-white majority is so much better … why don’t they just set up their own wonderful nation and leave us the hell alone?

    That’s the part they can never quite answer. Why exactly do you have to drag us, kicking and screaming into your utopia?

    • Agree: GermanReader2
    • Replies: @Tenzin
    The question cannot arise bcos the logic of karma is you reap what you sow. The law of karma is the results of your individual action only.Your karma cannot depend on your ancestors, race, color or somebody else’s action( karma). It will always be the results of your own action whether it’s good, bad or neutral. I think people should not use this idea for political gains. As a Tibetan Buddhist and being born in Exil( parents having to leave their homeland due to massacre, looting & suppression by the commies) I still remember the food rations that were given to us by the US/Aid and I am personally thankful to the Americans and their ancestors having contributed to it. Also the contribution to the idea of freedom which is a natural right in order take action(karma- positive/negative/ neutral)in ones own life. It’s sad nowadays to see society’s lacking interest in protecting their freedom from being taken away and realizing it only after it’s gone. The US used to be a lead in the ideas of individual freedom( it’s a free country, one hardly hears it now.)but I hope it doesn’t turn into a collective socialist suppressors of freedom. Going back to notion of karma:One doesn’t become noble by ones birth but by ones deeds- the Buddha.
  15. {{{Kavita Krishnan}}}

  16. @Anonymous
    Omer Aziz now reinforcing the Diversity is Our Strength flank with armaments from Cato:

    https://twitter.com/omeraziz12/status/1143885836431368192

    He cannot possibly believe that, can he? I mean, I want to be sure I’m in Clown World and not Idiocracy (yet).

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    Idiocracy (2006) is about ten years from now. Who knew the Beavis and Butthead guy would turn out to be a prophet.
    , @Saxon
    These people have been inculcated by media, academia etc. with a sense of superiority over us. Even though of course nothing in the real world supports this notion.
  17. “A controversial opinion.”

    No, it isn’t.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Fox
    This statement was also jumping out at me. What is "controversial" about a a common-sense statement?

    However, the people who can't have enough "refugees" should be made to register as pro-invasion individuals and declare in a legally binding way that they will carry the cost, including social services, law enforcement, education and health care.
    That would quickly separate the hard core people from the people who are for whatever is in fashion.
    , @El Dato
    > Indian rabid woquette accuses people of other cultures of Islamophobia, demands harder Diversity.
    > BBC is like Ghandi on the Holocaust, declares that not wanting to be replaced is "controversial"

    Everything is now weaponized.

    This will not stop until Final Solutions are again being adequately deployed. Not a chance that won't happen.
  18. @Reg Cæsar

    Or at least limit their population growth
     
    Are you volunteering to slip the condoms on them?

    No, but if we can’t turn them into dried-up feminist sluts and obese neckbearded basementdwelling incels, what is our civilization for anymore?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    No, but if we can’t turn them into dried-up feminist sluts and obese neckbearded basementdwelling incels, what is our civilization for anymore?
     
    "Cat lady" is an intriguing concept when applied to Africa.



    https://i.etsystatic.com/10291239/r/il/df5922/1614595497/il_794xN.1614595497_dlrx.jpg
  19. From Kavita Krishnan’s twitter account.

    Secretary, AIPWA and Polit Bureau member, CPI(ML), editor, Liberation, and formerly a student activist with the AISA and former Jt Secy, JNUSU.

    A little googling decoded most of that.

    Kavita Krishnan = Tamil Brahmin.

    CPI (ML) = Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist), a splinter group. according to Wikipedia,

    “The CPI(ML) advocated armed revolution and denounced participation in the electoral process.” Check around elsewhere the group is a Maoist splinter group, that was actively supported by Beijing (with arms and ammunition) in the 1970s to try and foment revolution. Various local officials were assassinated. Not surprising she has little respect for the old fella. The Beijing line on the Dalai Lama is that he is the head of some blood-drinking, demon worshiping sect.

    So, basically, in our Twitter world of 2019, some random radical ex-student activist with caste privilege in India can jump up, and be heard as an equal to the Dalai Lama.

    • Replies: @Alden
    The Chinese Consul told me the Tibetan monks enslaved all the non monks and cut off their arms if they disobeyed the monks. Also they are superstitious ignorant primitives who believe in God. But being a diplomat at least he didn’t lecture me about genociding the Indians and lynching blacks like most furriners do
  20. @peterike
    “But, increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.”

    They’ve figured out the game now, and they can smell the winning side from half a world away.

    Observe the Dot Indian in the new movie Yesterday, about him appropriating Liverpuddlian culture. Or perhaps to be more accurate black American musical culture as interpreted by white Englishmen. Still, nothing Asian in there. But he passes the Beatles catalogue off as his own.

    In response to a trailer for this movie, I tried to imagine the outrage to be met with a movie about a white boy who sneaks into a crypt to steal the hands Jimi Hendrix and wear them so as to magically pass off the dead legend’s guitar playing as his own. (It’s a horror movie, I guess.)

    • Replies: @anonymous
    A Dot Indian garage band in Calcutta appropriated Feather Indian culture, in 1969.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI750WSLSnA

    , @Redneck farmer
    Thank you so much for giving Jordan Peele his next movie idea.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    "... a white boy who sneaks into a crypt to steal the hands [of] Jimi Hendrix ..."

    Those hands are bones and dust. No magic left. Big waste of time. Now waiting for Eddie Van Halen.
  21. We are not going to restore domestic tranquility without an Anti-Subversion Act that provides for the denaturalization of these foreigners who engage in naked anti-white racism.

  22. Anonymous[378] • Disclaimer says:

    People of African origin coming to Europe can say to white supremacists in Europe, “We are here because you were there”!

    If European imperialism was bad, why ape it? Two wrongs don’t make a right. Also, Europeans brought civilization to Africa whereas Africans bring savagery to Europe. Also, nations like Sweden and Poland did not colonize Africa but ALL of Europe is targeted.

    If the argument is ‘non-white colonization of the West is good’, then post-colonial history will have to be rewritten as ‘white colonization of the non-West was good’, with people like Gandhi, Lumumba, and Ho Chi Minh rewritten as ‘xenophobic, far-right, nationalist monsters’ who reduced Diversity by sending whites back. Such would be the mantra of neo-colonial studies.

    Also, Hindus took full advantage of Anglo imperialism/colonialism and profited as middlemen-colonizers all over Asia, Middle East, and Africa. For their crimes, the karma demands that a billion Africans move to India. Amin was wrong merely to kick out the Indians. He should have sent half of Uganda to India as ‘justice’.

  23. Anonymous[378] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Steve, Kavita Krishnan is a Marxist Leninist and a member of the politburo of the Communist Party of India. She is far more of a Westernized leftist than a South Asian in her nurture, nature notwithstanding. She keeps criticizing Hindu nationalists in India.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavita_Krishnan

    A communist but sounds like so many globalist-capitalist Indians who call for White Nakba.

    • Replies: @216
    Its more a screech for White Husbands
  24. anonymous[415] • Disclaimer says:
    @guest
    Observe the Dot Indian in the new movie Yesterday, about him appropriating Liverpuddlian culture. Or perhaps to be more accurate black American musical culture as interpreted by white Englishmen. Still, nothing Asian in there. But he passes the Beatles catalogue off as his own.

    In response to a trailer for this movie, I tried to imagine the outrage to be met with a movie about a white boy who sneaks into a crypt to steal the hands Jimi Hendrix and wear them so as to magically pass off the dead legend's guitar playing as his own. (It's a horror movie, I guess.)

    A Dot Indian garage band in Calcutta appropriated Feather Indian culture, in 1969.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    A Dot Indian garage band in Calcutta appropriated Feather Indian culture, in 1969.
     
    They have garages in Calcutta? I thought it was wall-to-wall black hole.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    "John, Peter, Romit, Devdan, and Nondon" doesn't have the same ring as "John, Paul, George, and Ringo".

    Though "Nondon of London" might have worked.
  25. TUCKER/ LAMA 2020!

    I’m a Dalai Lama fan, although his lectures tend to be rambling and not terribly insightful. He has a playful Yoda like sense of humor that is endearing, but slightly unserious.

    I went to a Dalai Lama speech in Central Park and I distinctly remember him saying a few things that were vaguely critical of homosexuality. Raised an eyebrow from me, but I think most people were too blissed out to pick up on what he was saying.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    People are gullible. The real DL is pretty nasty. WikiLeaks has revealed that for years he had been sending underage Tibetan orphans to war for India against Pakistan. Enrollment was mandatory. It was called Establishment 22.
    , @getaclue
    "DL is pretty nasty"? As opposed to who? Madeleine Albright and her great statement endorsing the Mass Murder of 500,000 children in Iraq by USA sanctions? Hillary Clinton and Obama plotting to murder the Libyan leader and causing the country to descend in chaos and mass murder with the re-institution of slavery? Tony Blair? The ChiComs? He seems to have a lot more honesty and courage than most all Western "Leaders" that come to mind. Wikileaks said something--Whatever.
  26. @guest
    "We are here because you were there!"

    I don't see the connection.

    However, if she wants the White Man's Burden taken up again, Europe can reconquer Africa and set them back on a road to relative order and prosperity. Or at least limit their population growth.

    Leave Africa to the tender mercies of the Chinese.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    The strategy of the Chinese government in Africa is to be very nice and sweet. There are about 1 million Chinese in Africa (it's declining quite fast) who are not part of the official program. A lot of friction and stuff like ivory poaching is from there.
  27. Fox says:
    @Anon
    "A controversial opinion."

    No, it isn't.

    This statement was also jumping out at me. What is “controversial” about a a common-sense statement?

    However, the people who can’t have enough “refugees” should be made to register as pro-invasion individuals and declare in a legally binding way that they will carry the cost, including social services, law enforcement, education and health care.
    That would quickly separate the hard core people from the people who are for whatever is in fashion.

  28. @guest
    No, but if we can't turn them into dried-up feminist sluts and obese neckbearded basementdwelling incels, what is our civilization for anymore?

    No, but if we can’t turn them into dried-up feminist sluts and obese neckbearded basementdwelling incels, what is our civilization for anymore?

    “Cat lady” is an intriguing concept when applied to Africa.

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.
    , @Alden
    Some of the smaller ones look like they’d make great ratters. Maybe we should import them to America. Coyotes aren’t doing a thing about the rats.
  29. @Clifford Brown
    TUCKER/ LAMA 2020!

    I'm a Dalai Lama fan, although his lectures tend to be rambling and not terribly insightful. He has a playful Yoda like sense of humor that is endearing, but slightly unserious.

    I went to a Dalai Lama speech in Central Park and I distinctly remember him saying a few things that were vaguely critical of homosexuality. Raised an eyebrow from me, but I think most people were too blissed out to pick up on what he was saying.

    People are gullible. The real DL is pretty nasty. WikiLeaks has revealed that for years he had been sending underage Tibetan orphans to war for India against Pakistan. Enrollment was mandatory. It was called Establishment 22.

  30. @Anonymous
    A communist but sounds like so many globalist-capitalist Indians who call for White Nakba.

    Its more a screech for White Husbands

  31. @Reg Cæsar

    No, but if we can’t turn them into dried-up feminist sluts and obese neckbearded basementdwelling incels, what is our civilization for anymore?
     
    "Cat lady" is an intriguing concept when applied to Africa.



    https://i.etsystatic.com/10291239/r/il/df5922/1614595497/il_794xN.1614595497_dlrx.jpg

    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.
     
    Perhaps they have Etan Patz on their minds?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Etan_Patz

    I thought it was silly of Subaru to name an SUV, of all things, "Tribeca". Then I saw the data showing that neighborhood to have the highest fertility in NYC.
    , @Logan
    Some decades ago my sister and her husband owned a mountain lion that lived with them as a pet for several years. No major problems, but when she got preggers they had to find another home for Bamboo. Kiddos and semi-tame predators not a great combo.
    , @Feryl
    Most cat species are probably less threatening to people than many breeds of domestic dogs*. Cats tend to be rather shy, and they are cunning and cautious hunters, not voracious and domineering**

    *Some domestic dog breeds should not be tolerated in the presence of smaller children

    **Old World Lions are the exception that proves the rule.
  32. @anonymous
    A Dot Indian garage band in Calcutta appropriated Feather Indian culture, in 1969.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI750WSLSnA

    A Dot Indian garage band in Calcutta appropriated Feather Indian culture, in 1969.

    They have garages in Calcutta? I thought it was wall-to-wall black hole.

  33. @Clifford Brown
    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.

    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.

    Perhaps they have Etan Patz on their minds?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Etan_Patz

    I thought it was silly of Subaru to name an SUV, of all things, “Tribeca”. Then I saw the data showing that neighborhood to have the highest fertility in NYC.

    • Replies: @WowJustWow
    No, the Hasidic neighborhoods make Tribeca look barren by comparison.
  34. @anonymous
    A Dot Indian garage band in Calcutta appropriated Feather Indian culture, in 1969.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI750WSLSnA

    “John, Peter, Romit, Devdan, and Nondon” doesn’t have the same ring as “John, Paul, George, and Ringo”.

    Though “Nondon of London” might have worked.

  35. anonymous[415] • Disclaimer says:

    They have garages in Calcutta? I thought it was wall-to-wall black hole.

    Actually, it’s wall-to-wall wypipo in the black hole of Calcutta. The Dot Indians live outside.

    But they all the wypipo to go out to the Royal Calcutta Golf Club.

    http://www.rcgc.in/

  36. @Anonymous
    Omer Aziz now reinforcing the Diversity is Our Strength flank with armaments from Cato:

    https://twitter.com/omeraziz12/status/1143885836431368192

    Boilerplate immigrant supremacism.

  37. ..gets that “Europe” as we know it is a product of colonisation. People of African origin coming to Europe can say to white supremacists in Europe, “We are here because you were there”

    That is incorrect. We were not in Africa or India. Those colonies were abandoned awhile ago. So the overwhelming majority of contemporary Europeans were never there.

    Recall from the Bible, Deuteronomy 24:16:

    “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”

    In other words we are not responsible for whatever those who came before us did.

    However, it is true that you are here. So between you and us, you are the ones in the wrong.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    In other words we are not responsible for whatever those who came before us did.
     
    True, but it is also true that it was not our forebears who were "there". It was, instead, their

    rulers
     
    . And if we are hereditarily vicariously liable because of them, so is everyone from the other places they ruled.
  38. @J.Ross
    Of course he's a true "refugee," he's a thought leader on the CIA payroll!

    Of course he’s a true “refugee,” he’s a thought leader on the CIA payroll!

    Well that’s very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Isn't everybody on somebody's payroll? Aren't you?

    Maybe that's their way of making it impossible for anyone, even themselves, to determine who their assets really are. You know. Just have everybody on the payroll. Distribute the cash from the hangar where they filmed the moon landings at Area 51.

    They could just have assets who aren't assets but think they are. Assets they themselves think are assets but may or may not be. Perfect secrecy. Pay them and handle them, but don't have them really accomplish anything. Like the Dalai Lama. Like me. I like that envelope that mysteriously shows up in my mailbox.

    Double-blind asset management. It's what a stockbroker does. He thinks he's managing your assets, and you think he is, but the assets he isn't managing are not really worth anything until you get rid of them and him.

    It's like phony conspiracy theories -- like this one -- that exist just to be conflated with reasonable hypotheses -- like this one -- and thereby make them subject to ridicule. Or controlled opposition. Or not. Nothing is real. And nothing to get hung about. Strawberry Fields Forever.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1365/2497/files/IMG_3053-ANIMATION_large.gif?v=1522242950

    Now, lets talk about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez...
    , @PhysicistDave
    Rosie wrote:

    Well that’s very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate [the Dalai Lama].
     
    As a militant scientific atheist, I keep thinking I should despise this guy -- heir to a weird theocracy based on a bizarre version of Buddhism.

    Except... when he speaks out in public, he often sounds like one of the sanest people on the planet.

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet -- that does not speak well for planetary sanity.
  39. @Anonymous
    Omer Aziz now reinforcing the Diversity is Our Strength flank with armaments from Cato:

    https://twitter.com/omeraziz12/status/1143885836431368192

    In due course, my son Marcus, I shall explain what I found out in Athens about these Greeks, and demonstrate what advantage there may be in looking into their writings (while not taking them too seriously). They are a worthless and unruly tribe. Take this as a prophecy: when those folk give us their writings they will corrupt everything. All the more if they send their doctors here. They have sworn to kill all barbarians with medicine—and they charge a fee for doing it, in order to be trusted and to work more easily. They call us barbarians, too, of course, and Opici, a dirtier name than the rest. I have forbidden you to deal with doctors.

    –Cato the Elder in a letter to his son

  40. So dear Kavitha, the “they are here because you were there” argument includes also Finns, Swiss, Hungarians, Czechs, Poles and so on, who never had a colonial empire?

  41. It used to be that we were supposed to believe that Diversity Is Our Strength. But, increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.

    Apparently, for South Asians, their punishment is/was living in South Asia.

  42. @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    His Holiness is based AF. Tibet has been Population Replaced and Sikhim was annexed despite local wishes because the Hindu Immi-Vaders cried to Momma India that they were being oppreeeeeeeessed in their new turf.
    The DL truly, profoundly “gets” it

    His Holiness is based AF.

    Speaking of based! There’s this guy Vladimir who’s pretty awesome lately.

    ‘Liberalism’s had its day’: Putin attacks Western views on gay rights and multiculturalism as he claims immigrants are allowed to ‘kill, plunder and rape with impunity because their rights as migrants are protected’

    The Russian president criticised Western views on gay rights, immigration and multiculturalism – which he claimed were an attack on ‘traditional family values’.

    Mr Putin reserved special praise for Donald Trump for trying to stem the flow of migrants and drugs into the US

    Also blasted Angela Merkel’s ‘cardinal mistake’ of allowed in a million refugees

  43. FUC* Punishment. And screw “diversity”, a Jewish code-word for anti-white.

  44. @Anonymous
    Omer Aziz now reinforcing the Diversity is Our Strength flank with armaments from Cato:

    https://twitter.com/omeraziz12/status/1143885836431368192

    America is going to be be majority brown soon, too. By 2045, whites will comprise 49.7% of the population.

    Try not to drool, dear boy….

    There’s no need to worry though:

    MMMM, dunno. In my experience, when someone says there’s “no need to worry,” that’s usually code for “you need to start worrying.”

    this just means better food,

    The diversity-equals-better-dining cliche…..guess that I’ll counter that with the import-recipes-not-people cliche…..

    And while I’m on the topic of food, why are SJWs so obsessed with gastronomic matters?Do they just sit around eating all the time?

    better literature,

    Yeah, everybody knows that the US-Latinx community is just bursting with literary talent. I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors…….and I’m drawing a blank here. I can’t think of any US-Latinx who can withstand comparison with the likes of Poe, Henry James, Mark Twain, TS Eliot, Robert Frost, Hawthorne, Melville, Faulkner, Hemingway, Edith Wharton, Willa Cather, Wallace Stevens, Emily Dickinson, Stephen Crane, William Dean Howells, etc, etc, etc

    and a greater symphony of languages,

    One symphony is another man’s cacophony…

    art,

    MMMM, let’s see, this

    Vs this

    and beauty.

    Dear me, back-to-back Vs…..

    • Replies: @BenKenobi

    the import-recipes-not-people cliche…..
     
    my non-profit NGO "Recipes Without Borders" encourages diverse culinary experts to share their knowledge while also, you know, staying put.

    I'm struggling to secure funding. Perhaps you could help. There are eight ways you can donate to RWB...
    , @PiltdownMan

    I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors…….and I’m drawing a blank here.
     
    Well, I don't know if the quarter-Portuguese John Dos Passos counts. Besides, he did his best writing ninety years ago. Poet William Carlos Williams was another part-Hispanic, but he too did his best work a century ago.

    But both would have been horrified to be described as Latinx, I'm pretty sure.

    Oscar Hijuelos wasn't bad, but he basically wrote only three books, of which one was pretty good.


    All three of the above were basically assimilated.

    , @getaclue
    @BenKenobi If you agree to add some kind of poison to your creations whenever they are served to "Whitey" I think we can get a Soros' NGO to come up with some serious financing for your project!
  45. @Reg Cæsar

    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.
     
    Perhaps they have Etan Patz on their minds?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Etan_Patz

    I thought it was silly of Subaru to name an SUV, of all things, "Tribeca". Then I saw the data showing that neighborhood to have the highest fertility in NYC.

    No, the Hasidic neighborhoods make Tribeca look barren by comparison.

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    But Hasids do not buy Subarus, they buy Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey mini-vans. People in Tribeca do not buy Subarus either, but the branding is aspirational.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    No, the Hasidic neighborhoods make Tribeca look barren by comparison.
     
    The City's own figures show Battery Park/Tribeca to have the highest crude birth rate (by far) in Manhattan, and the fifth-highest in the entire city. These Hasids must all live in Borough Park.

    https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/vs/2016sum.pdf

    However, Battery Park/Tribeca was near the bottom on teen births. Possibly because no teens live there. Or can afford a Subaru SUV.
  46. we are here because you were there

    Yes because the pilgrims who landed at Plymouth Rock were greeted by (((immigration lawyers))) who trained the settlers on how to game the generous and credulous Injun welfare state.

    Also because during the Raj half of England decamped for Bengal via family-reunification loopholes.

    Plus, Americans 150 years ago complained about Italians & Irish so we’re not allowed to oppose mass third world immigration now.

  47. Indians, especially Sikhs are the ultimate gamers and conmen.

  48. @syonredux

    America is going to be be majority brown soon, too. By 2045, whites will comprise 49.7% of the population.
     
    Try not to drool, dear boy....

    There's no need to worry though:
     
    MMMM, dunno. In my experience, when someone says there's "no need to worry," that's usually code for "you need to start worrying."

    this just means better food,
     
    The diversity-equals-better-dining cliche.....guess that I'll counter that with the import-recipes-not-people cliche.....

    And while I'm on the topic of food, why are SJWs so obsessed with gastronomic matters?Do they just sit around eating all the time?

    better literature,
     
    Yeah, everybody knows that the US-Latinx community is just bursting with literary talent. I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors.......and I'm drawing a blank here. I can't think of any US-Latinx who can withstand comparison with the likes of Poe, Henry James, Mark Twain, TS Eliot, Robert Frost, Hawthorne, Melville, Faulkner, Hemingway, Edith Wharton, Willa Cather, Wallace Stevens, Emily Dickinson, Stephen Crane, William Dean Howells, etc, etc, etc

    and a greater symphony of languages,
     
    One symphony is another man's cacophony...

    art,
     
    MMMM, let's see, this


    https://nbclatino.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/deathofrubensalazar.jpg

    Vs this


    https://uploads5.wikiart.org/images/james-mcneill-whistler/arrangement-in-grey-and-black-no-2-portrait-of-thomas-carlyle-1873.jpg

    and beauty.
     
    Dear me, back-to-back Vs.....

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg/1200px-Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg


    http://tribupedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1940s-Female-Students-Outside-Doing-Thier-Work-Drinking-Coke-700x686.jpg

    the import-recipes-not-people cliche…..

    my non-profit NGO “Recipes Without Borders” encourages diverse culinary experts to share their knowledge while also, you know, staying put.

    I’m struggling to secure funding. Perhaps you could help. There are eight ways you can donate to RWB…

    • Replies: @anon
    Not feasible, the technology for that just doesn't exist yet.

    Besides, only Latinx peoples can prepare tacos, only South Asians can cook samosas, Japanese and sushi, etc. Except for the Chinese - they can appropriate anything and everything.

    We stole POC resources, technology and people. We can't steal their recipes, too. Cultural appropriation is just like the holocaust and "Never Again" means something.
  49. @WowJustWow
    No, the Hasidic neighborhoods make Tribeca look barren by comparison.

    But Hasids do not buy Subarus, they buy Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey mini-vans. People in Tribeca do not buy Subarus either, but the branding is aspirational.

  50. Dalai Lama went to Europe and asked a zen question: “Can you have one with everything?”

  51. @syonredux

    America is going to be be majority brown soon, too. By 2045, whites will comprise 49.7% of the population.
     
    Try not to drool, dear boy....

    There's no need to worry though:
     
    MMMM, dunno. In my experience, when someone says there's "no need to worry," that's usually code for "you need to start worrying."

    this just means better food,
     
    The diversity-equals-better-dining cliche.....guess that I'll counter that with the import-recipes-not-people cliche.....

    And while I'm on the topic of food, why are SJWs so obsessed with gastronomic matters?Do they just sit around eating all the time?

    better literature,
     
    Yeah, everybody knows that the US-Latinx community is just bursting with literary talent. I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors.......and I'm drawing a blank here. I can't think of any US-Latinx who can withstand comparison with the likes of Poe, Henry James, Mark Twain, TS Eliot, Robert Frost, Hawthorne, Melville, Faulkner, Hemingway, Edith Wharton, Willa Cather, Wallace Stevens, Emily Dickinson, Stephen Crane, William Dean Howells, etc, etc, etc

    and a greater symphony of languages,
     
    One symphony is another man's cacophony...

    art,
     
    MMMM, let's see, this


    https://nbclatino.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/deathofrubensalazar.jpg

    Vs this


    https://uploads5.wikiart.org/images/james-mcneill-whistler/arrangement-in-grey-and-black-no-2-portrait-of-thomas-carlyle-1873.jpg

    and beauty.
     
    Dear me, back-to-back Vs.....

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg/1200px-Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg


    http://tribupedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1940s-Female-Students-Outside-Doing-Thier-Work-Drinking-Coke-700x686.jpg

    I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors…….and I’m drawing a blank here.

    Well, I don’t know if the quarter-Portuguese John Dos Passos counts. Besides, he did his best writing ninety years ago. Poet William Carlos Williams was another part-Hispanic, but he too did his best work a century ago.

    But both would have been horrified to be described as Latinx, I’m pretty sure.

    Oscar Hijuelos wasn’t bad, but he basically wrote only three books, of which one was pretty good.

    All three of the above were basically assimilated.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors…….and I’m drawing a blank here.

    Well, I don’t know if the quarter-Portuguese John Dos Passos counts. Besides, he did his best writing ninety years ago. Poet William Carlos Williams was another part-Hispanic, but he too did his best work a century ago.

    But both would have been horrified to be described as Latinx, I’m pretty sure.
     
    I've got a friend who teaches at a uni that has an American lit diversity quota for certain courses. She once tried to meet the quota by counting William Carlos Williams and Dos Passos as Latinx. Sadly, she was told that they don't count as Latinx

    https://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/12946337_f520.jpg

    https://www.theparisreview.org/il/1310b56ff1/large/John-Dos-Passos-Interview.png

    So, according to the WOKE, they are officially White men

    Oscar Hijuelos wasn’t bad, but he basically wrote only three books, of which one was pretty good
     
    He's OK.....but I can't see ranking him alongside Twain and James.....Not to mention the fact that I have a hard time counting him as a POC:



    https://www.thecubanhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/MTE1ODA0OTcxMzgxNjU1MDUz.jpg
  52. @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    Cardinal Sarah who hails from Guinea has also called for European refugee repatriation. Sarah's race has prevented retribution by Bishop Bergoglio of Rome (aka, Pope Francis).

    Francis makes me think the old calvinists with their rantings about anti christ and scarlet woman of Rome were unto something. What if the next one’s worse?

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Alden:

    The next Papal Conclave will deliver a pope who in retrospect will make Francis look like a right-wing retrograde. These results are guaranteed with freshly-minted concave voters like Cupich!
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Francis makes me think the old calvinists with their rantings about anti christ and scarlet woman of Rome were unto something.
     
    What would Calvin think of his own spawn?


    Open and Affirming Begins!

    In response to the recent Dutch translation of the Nashville declaration, many Dutch city halls, universities and even churches are flying the rainbow flag!

    https://cdn.roomforall.com/wp-content/uploads/13435586_1158147480872245_1855595367586383558_n-300x300.jpg

    http://www.oakgrv.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/10-9-18-Rainbow-Flag-1024x768.jpg

    https://fedchurch.org/mt-content/uploads/2018/05/rainbow-flag-and-sign_2018-05-23-20-22-19.jpg

  53. @PiltdownMan

    I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors…….and I’m drawing a blank here.
     
    Well, I don't know if the quarter-Portuguese John Dos Passos counts. Besides, he did his best writing ninety years ago. Poet William Carlos Williams was another part-Hispanic, but he too did his best work a century ago.

    But both would have been horrified to be described as Latinx, I'm pretty sure.

    Oscar Hijuelos wasn't bad, but he basically wrote only three books, of which one was pretty good.


    All three of the above were basically assimilated.

    I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors…….and I’m drawing a blank here.

    Well, I don’t know if the quarter-Portuguese John Dos Passos counts. Besides, he did his best writing ninety years ago. Poet William Carlos Williams was another part-Hispanic, but he too did his best work a century ago.

    But both would have been horrified to be described as Latinx, I’m pretty sure.

    I’ve got a friend who teaches at a uni that has an American lit diversity quota for certain courses. She once tried to meet the quota by counting William Carlos Williams and Dos Passos as Latinx. Sadly, she was told that they don’t count as Latinx

    So, according to the WOKE, they are officially White men

    Oscar Hijuelos wasn’t bad, but he basically wrote only three books, of which one was pretty good

    He’s OK…..but I can’t see ranking him alongside Twain and James…..Not to mention the fact that I have a hard time counting him as a POC:

    • LOL: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Your friend was screwed. WCW is hispanic by virtue of his Puerto Rican mother, much like Ted Williams is hispanic by virtue of his Mexican mother.
  54. @PiltdownMan
    From Kavita Krishnan's twitter account.


    Secretary, AIPWA and Polit Bureau member, CPI(ML), editor, Liberation, and formerly a student activist with the AISA and former Jt Secy, JNUSU.
     
    A little googling decoded most of that.

    Kavita Krishnan = Tamil Brahmin.

    CPI (ML) = Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist), a splinter group. according to Wikipedia,

    "The CPI(ML) advocated armed revolution and denounced participation in the electoral process." Check around elsewhere the group is a Maoist splinter group, that was actively supported by Beijing (with arms and ammunition) in the 1970s to try and foment revolution. Various local officials were assassinated. Not surprising she has little respect for the old fella. The Beijing line on the Dalai Lama is that he is the head of some blood-drinking, demon worshiping sect.

    So, basically, in our Twitter world of 2019, some random radical ex-student activist with caste privilege in India can jump up, and be heard as an equal to the Dalai Lama.

    The Chinese Consul told me the Tibetan monks enslaved all the non monks and cut off their arms if they disobeyed the monks. Also they are superstitious ignorant primitives who believe in God. But being a diplomat at least he didn’t lecture me about genociding the Indians and lynching blacks like most furriners do

  55. @Reg Cæsar

    No, but if we can’t turn them into dried-up feminist sluts and obese neckbearded basementdwelling incels, what is our civilization for anymore?
     
    "Cat lady" is an intriguing concept when applied to Africa.



    https://i.etsystatic.com/10291239/r/il/df5922/1614595497/il_794xN.1614595497_dlrx.jpg

    Some of the smaller ones look like they’d make great ratters. Maybe we should import them to America. Coyotes aren’t doing a thing about the rats.

    • Replies: @Charon
    Before too long, the smaller ones will be the only ones remaining, outside of cages anyway.
  56. Diversity Is Your Punishment

    So iow they finally came up with a concrete reason diversity is a good bad good thing (other than the food): it’s a strength in the parental ‘this is going to hurt me a lot more than it hurts you’ sense.

  57. @syonredux

    I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors…….and I’m drawing a blank here.

    Well, I don’t know if the quarter-Portuguese John Dos Passos counts. Besides, he did his best writing ninety years ago. Poet William Carlos Williams was another part-Hispanic, but he too did his best work a century ago.

    But both would have been horrified to be described as Latinx, I’m pretty sure.
     
    I've got a friend who teaches at a uni that has an American lit diversity quota for certain courses. She once tried to meet the quota by counting William Carlos Williams and Dos Passos as Latinx. Sadly, she was told that they don't count as Latinx

    https://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/12946337_f520.jpg

    https://www.theparisreview.org/il/1310b56ff1/large/John-Dos-Passos-Interview.png

    So, according to the WOKE, they are officially White men

    Oscar Hijuelos wasn’t bad, but he basically wrote only three books, of which one was pretty good
     
    He's OK.....but I can't see ranking him alongside Twain and James.....Not to mention the fact that I have a hard time counting him as a POC:



    https://www.thecubanhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/MTE1ODA0OTcxMzgxNjU1MDUz.jpg

    Your friend was screwed. WCW is hispanic by virtue of his Puerto Rican mother, much like Ted Williams is hispanic by virtue of his Mexican mother.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Your friend was screwed. WCW is hispanic by virtue of his Puerto Rican mother, much like Ted Williams is hispanic by virtue of his Mexican mother.
     
    She had a fun time arguing the point with the campus higher-ups. You see, they couldn't just come out and say that William Carlos Williams doesn't count because he's White.......which meant that the conversation had a Monty Python-esque, wink-wink, nudge-nudge quality....



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kwh3R0YjuQ
  58. @Rosie

    Of course he’s a true “refugee,” he’s a thought leader on the CIA payroll!
     
    Well that's very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate.

    Isn’t everybody on somebody’s payroll? Aren’t you?

    Maybe that’s their way of making it impossible for anyone, even themselves, to determine who their assets really are. You know. Just have everybody on the payroll. Distribute the cash from the hangar where they filmed the moon landings at Area 51.

    They could just have assets who aren’t assets but think they are. Assets they themselves think are assets but may or may not be. Perfect secrecy. Pay them and handle them, but don’t have them really accomplish anything. Like the Dalai Lama. Like me. I like that envelope that mysteriously shows up in my mailbox.

    Double-blind asset management. It’s what a stockbroker does. He thinks he’s managing your assets, and you think he is, but the assets he isn’t managing are not really worth anything until you get rid of them and him.

    It’s like phony conspiracy theories — like this one — that exist just to be conflated with reasonable hypotheses — like this one — and thereby make them subject to ridicule. Or controlled opposition. Or not. Nothing is real. And nothing to get hung about. Strawberry Fields Forever.

    Now, lets talk about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez…

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money."
  59. increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.

    South Asia is one of the more diverse regions in the world.

    So we should probably assume that South Asians know what they’re talking about.

    • Replies: @anon
    Ha. As KK asks -

    @kavita_krishnan
    Jun 23
    More
    24-year old Shams Tabrez in Jharkhand tortured & beaten by a mob for hours, made to chant 'Jai Shri Ram' - and eventually died of his injuries. Is this blood-drenched slaughterhouse, then, my country? https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/jharkhand-mob-lynching-jharkhand-man-beaten-by-mob-for-hours-made-to-chant-jai-shri-ram-dies-2058068 … via @ndtv
     
    Yes, that country of blood-drenched diversity is your country, Kavita.
  60. @peterike
    “But, increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.”

    They’ve figured out the game now, and they can smell the winning side from half a world away.

    …they can smell the winning side from half a world away.

    And vice versa!

    A flight attendant friend told me airlines have to designate certain planes for flights to and from the subcontinent, as the spices and b.o. seep into the seats, so that passengers traveling elsewhere complain. It is impossible to get out of the upholstery.

    • Replies: @Simon Tugmutton
    I once had the misfortune to fly Air India from London to Chicago. We had to take a bus from the terminal to the plane: I'm not exaggerating to say that you could smell the curry from 100 yards away.
  61. @Rosie

    Of course he’s a true “refugee,” he’s a thought leader on the CIA payroll!
     
    Well that's very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate.

    Rosie wrote:

    Well that’s very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate [the Dalai Lama].

    As a militant scientific atheist, I keep thinking I should despise this guy — heir to a weird theocracy based on a bizarre version of Buddhism.

    Except… when he speaks out in public, he often sounds like one of the sanest people on the planet.

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet — that does not speak well for planetary sanity.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    That's the sound of one man clapping.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    "As a militant scientific atheist ..."

    Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?
    , @Anon

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet — that does not speak well for planetary sanity
     
    I think that it would be best qualified as Tibetan Buddhism (as apart from other Tantric sects practiced by wholly different peoples in different nations), but you are technically correct in how you qualify it.

    Its best to think of Tibetan Buddhism as a cultural repository for myths that, when decoded, can meaningfully describe present situations. Most people think of religions in terms of practice (going to church, meditating, etc), which is merely enacting myth or awaiting its arrival. The myth is where the meat is. One of their myths has them defeating Islam in a final war. Their sanity may spread further than first thought.

    , @Desiderius
    https://americanmind.org/essays/conservative-rationalism-has-failed/
  62. @Anon
    "A controversial opinion."

    No, it isn't.

    > Indian rabid woquette accuses people of other cultures of Islamophobia, demands harder Diversity.
    > BBC is like Ghandi on the Holocaust, declares that not wanting to be replaced is “controversial”

    Everything is now weaponized.

    This will not stop until Final Solutions are again being adequately deployed. Not a chance that won’t happen.

  63. @PhysicistDave
    Rosie wrote:

    Well that’s very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate [the Dalai Lama].
     
    As a militant scientific atheist, I keep thinking I should despise this guy -- heir to a weird theocracy based on a bizarre version of Buddhism.

    Except... when he speaks out in public, he often sounds like one of the sanest people on the planet.

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet -- that does not speak well for planetary sanity.

    That’s the sound of one man clapping.

    • LOL: PhysicistDave
  64. @guest
    Observe the Dot Indian in the new movie Yesterday, about him appropriating Liverpuddlian culture. Or perhaps to be more accurate black American musical culture as interpreted by white Englishmen. Still, nothing Asian in there. But he passes the Beatles catalogue off as his own.

    In response to a trailer for this movie, I tried to imagine the outrage to be met with a movie about a white boy who sneaks into a crypt to steal the hands Jimi Hendrix and wear them so as to magically pass off the dead legend's guitar playing as his own. (It's a horror movie, I guess.)

    Thank you so much for giving Jordan Peele his next movie idea.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    Jordan Peele's next movie idea: Take a white template, plug in black. Accolades and buckets of cash follow. He's probably America's richest retarded negro.
  65. Anonymous[950] • Disclaimer says:

    Isn’t it rather odd that a woman with a Hindu name is celebrating massive Islamic immigration.

    As if the recent military strutting and posturing at the Indo/Pak border means nothing, or the election of Modi and the Gujarat riots….or the events of 1947, or to go back further in time the centuries long subjugation of Hindus by Muslims, not to mention the massacres, the enslavement, the looting, the heavy taxation etc etc.

  66. Diversity as punishment?

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17731942.greedy-pigs-cafe-wont-change-its-name-after-anonymous-letter-brands-it-disgusting-shameful-and-offensive/

    Please immediately change the name of your shop to something else which is not offensive. There is no need to call it Greedy Pigs.

    Use common sense. That’s not how you should be naming a shop. Not everyone in the communities believes in the same thing as you and not everyone agrees nor appreciates silly shop names as the one you have put up outside your shop.

    So the first thing you need to do is change that stupid name from the shop’s sign board and get rid of the pictures of the pigs. Not everyone finds the name Greedy Pigs or the pictures of pigs to be pleasant and not everyone consumes pork and pig products.

    Miss Harper, 45, who has been open for 16 months, says she first received a similar letter a couple of months after opening and then it went quiet.

    But she says she has received the second letter against a backdrop of young Asian males driving past, hurling abusive language at her and so she took the decision to report it to police in fear of something else happening.”

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/resources/images/10047112

    In other local news

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17722868.bradford-man-admits-setting-fire-to-ilkley-moor/

    “A Bradford man has been warned to expect “a substantial sentence of imprisonment” after he pleaded guilty to setting fire to Ilkley Moor. Mohammed Zulkifl, 20…”

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I have always hated the phrase "common sense" because it doesn't mean anything (its most common reasonable meaning is "hindsight," which moots its use in admonitions) but it's interesting to see it mean "Islam (submission)."
  67. Diversity is apparently our sacred duty. You know you are in Bizzaro-World when the Dalai Lama says whoa while the Pope is pro-immigration and open borders … except for the Vatican, of course.

  68. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    ...they can smell the winning side from half a world away.
     
    And vice versa!

    A flight attendant friend told me airlines have to designate certain planes for flights to and from the subcontinent, as the spices and b.o. seep into the seats, so that passengers traveling elsewhere complain. It is impossible to get out of the upholstery.

    I once had the misfortune to fly Air India from London to Chicago. We had to take a bus from the terminal to the plane: I’m not exaggerating to say that you could smell the curry from 100 yards away.

  69. Anonymous[950] • Disclaimer says:

    I note she doesn’t pontificate about the Indian (Hindu) colonization of Muslim majority Kashmir – against the wishes of ethnic Kashmiris – and the violence and oppression meted out on Muslim Kashmiris in order to enforce this tyranny.

  70. From Nick Land (http://www.xenosystems.net/ethnomasochism/):

    “Arguments that indiscriminate immigration is socially beneficial are too widespread to pick upon in detail – spend any time over at The Economist or, for the full-throttle ‘altruistic’ version, Bryan Caplan’s place, to be inundated in them. It’s hard to see how a lack of selectivity could ever be advantageous from the perspective of the demographic recipient, but the whole discussion evades a far more toxic problem. If a case for the mass implantation of unscreened foreign populations is couched in the language of self-interest – however misguidedly – it can, at least potentially, be engaged rather than merely diagnosed. (This blog has no problem with immigration in general whatsoever.)”

    “Far more disturbing to any surviving assumptions about sane social policy decisions is the very different argument… that immigration is a punishment to be embraced, in a form of religiously-intoxicated, collective self-flagellation, to scourge the sin-blackened Occident, unendingly, for its ineliminable historical crimes. This is ethnomasochism in its purest instantiation, and argument is wholly irrelevant against it. Such moral-religious convulsants do not want ‘good’ (productive, orderly, talented, aspirational) immigration. They want the lash. No ‘racist’ profile of potential immigrant groups can be vicious enough to elicit aversion, on the contrary – the more harm that is promised by the incomers, the more sobbing gratitude accompanies the invitation. Immigration is meant to be torture, so what use are brainy, well-behaved entrepreneurs? The ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor. ‘Model minorities’ are erased from the picture entirely, because they do not exact the suffering that is so ardently desired. (“You can wander through Chinatown late at night without being robbed, beaten, or raped – what’s the possible spiritual value in that?”) To repeat the essential, and hideously consequential point: Immigration is supposed to punish us.”

    “This is the terminal pathology of Western Civilization, in its ‘highest’ state of expression. There is not much that can be said to be fortunate about it, except that it cannot be indefinitely prolonged.”

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    This is perceptive stuff from Nick Land.

    But there is a further dimension he's missing.

    The hard cases on the cultural left are perpetually dissatisfied; they are not content luxuriating in their astonishing privilege and lives of ease -- much less being grateful for them. They perceive themselves to be wise and powerful, and therefore capable of mighty works -- even the humanly-impossible work of saving, redeeming, other people.

    As such, they have no use for bright, self-reliant immigrants. Instead, indeed, 'the ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor.'

    There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.

    And sure, yes, there are SJWs who 'want the lash', as he states. They long to suffer for the sins of their forebears. But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other. Are they any less prideful?

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.

    , @Charon

    They want the lash.
     
    Yes, it's the only thing that will make them happy. Unfortunately they want the lash for all of us as well. And we're going to get it but good.
  71. Old: Replacement migration
    Gold: Revenge migration

  72. @georgesdelatour
    From Nick Land (http://www.xenosystems.net/ethnomasochism/):

    “Arguments that indiscriminate immigration is socially beneficial are too widespread to pick upon in detail - spend any time over at The Economist or, for the full-throttle ‘altruistic’ version, Bryan Caplan’s place, to be inundated in them. It’s hard to see how a lack of selectivity could ever be advantageous from the perspective of the demographic recipient, but the whole discussion evades a far more toxic problem. If a case for the mass implantation of unscreened foreign populations is couched in the language of self-interest - however misguidedly - it can, at least potentially, be engaged rather than merely diagnosed. (This blog has no problem with immigration in general whatsoever.)”

    “Far more disturbing to any surviving assumptions about sane social policy decisions is the very different argument… that immigration is a punishment to be embraced, in a form of religiously-intoxicated, collective self-flagellation, to scourge the sin-blackened Occident, unendingly, for its ineliminable historical crimes. This is ethnomasochism in its purest instantiation, and argument is wholly irrelevant against it. Such moral-religious convulsants do not want ‘good’ (productive, orderly, talented, aspirational) immigration. They want the lash. No ‘racist’ profile of potential immigrant groups can be vicious enough to elicit aversion, on the contrary - the more harm that is promised by the incomers, the more sobbing gratitude accompanies the invitation. Immigration is meant to be torture, so what use are brainy, well-behaved entrepreneurs? The ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor. ‘Model minorities’ are erased from the picture entirely, because they do not exact the suffering that is so ardently desired. (“You can wander through Chinatown late at night without being robbed, beaten, or raped - what’s the possible spiritual value in that?”) To repeat the essential, and hideously consequential point: Immigration is supposed to punish us.”

    “This is the terminal pathology of Western Civilization, in its ‘highest’ state of expression. There is not much that can be said to be fortunate about it, except that it cannot be indefinitely prolonged.”

    This is perceptive stuff from Nick Land.

    But there is a further dimension he’s missing.

    The hard cases on the cultural left are perpetually dissatisfied; they are not content luxuriating in their astonishing privilege and lives of ease — much less being grateful for them. They perceive themselves to be wise and powerful, and therefore capable of mighty works — even the humanly-impossible work of saving, redeeming, other people.

    As such, they have no use for bright, self-reliant immigrants. Instead, indeed, ‘the ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor.’

    There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.

    And sure, yes, there are SJWs who ‘want the lash’, as he states. They long to suffer for the sins of their forebears. But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other. Are they any less prideful?

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.

    • Replies: @georgesdelatour
    “There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.”

    The Open Society Foundations have spent a lot of money making sure the people smugglers of Tripoli succeed in shipping migrants across the Med and into Europe. But as far as I can tell, they haven’t spent any money at all helping those migrants adapt to life in Europe once they get there. Increasing the numbers of “downtrodden” in Europe seems to be the priority, not making them less downtrodden.
    , @Anonymous
    All I can say is that individuals who *really and truly* believe in this shit are, apart from being gullible to an extent which shame a 5 year old, must have lived very sheltered and very easy lives and have never had to fight or struggle for anything, or have gone without all their needs being satisfied through no effort of their own.
    , @Desiderius

    But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other.
     
    By their stripes...

    Nick Land is just wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

    They want the lash alright - in their hand not on their backs!

    , @dfordoom

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.
     
    That relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others is clearly very much what Woke Capital wants.
  73. @The Last Real Calvinist
    This is perceptive stuff from Nick Land.

    But there is a further dimension he's missing.

    The hard cases on the cultural left are perpetually dissatisfied; they are not content luxuriating in their astonishing privilege and lives of ease -- much less being grateful for them. They perceive themselves to be wise and powerful, and therefore capable of mighty works -- even the humanly-impossible work of saving, redeeming, other people.

    As such, they have no use for bright, self-reliant immigrants. Instead, indeed, 'the ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor.'

    There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.

    And sure, yes, there are SJWs who 'want the lash', as he states. They long to suffer for the sins of their forebears. But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other. Are they any less prideful?

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.

    “There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.”

    The Open Society Foundations have spent a lot of money making sure the people smugglers of Tripoli succeed in shipping migrants across the Med and into Europe. But as far as I can tell, they haven’t spent any money at all helping those migrants adapt to life in Europe once they get there. Increasing the numbers of “downtrodden” in Europe seems to be the priority, not making them less downtrodden.

  74. @Alden
    Some of the smaller ones look like they’d make great ratters. Maybe we should import them to America. Coyotes aren’t doing a thing about the rats.

    Before too long, the smaller ones will be the only ones remaining, outside of cages anyway.

  75. @georgesdelatour
    From Nick Land (http://www.xenosystems.net/ethnomasochism/):

    “Arguments that indiscriminate immigration is socially beneficial are too widespread to pick upon in detail - spend any time over at The Economist or, for the full-throttle ‘altruistic’ version, Bryan Caplan’s place, to be inundated in them. It’s hard to see how a lack of selectivity could ever be advantageous from the perspective of the demographic recipient, but the whole discussion evades a far more toxic problem. If a case for the mass implantation of unscreened foreign populations is couched in the language of self-interest - however misguidedly - it can, at least potentially, be engaged rather than merely diagnosed. (This blog has no problem with immigration in general whatsoever.)”

    “Far more disturbing to any surviving assumptions about sane social policy decisions is the very different argument… that immigration is a punishment to be embraced, in a form of religiously-intoxicated, collective self-flagellation, to scourge the sin-blackened Occident, unendingly, for its ineliminable historical crimes. This is ethnomasochism in its purest instantiation, and argument is wholly irrelevant against it. Such moral-religious convulsants do not want ‘good’ (productive, orderly, talented, aspirational) immigration. They want the lash. No ‘racist’ profile of potential immigrant groups can be vicious enough to elicit aversion, on the contrary - the more harm that is promised by the incomers, the more sobbing gratitude accompanies the invitation. Immigration is meant to be torture, so what use are brainy, well-behaved entrepreneurs? The ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor. ‘Model minorities’ are erased from the picture entirely, because they do not exact the suffering that is so ardently desired. (“You can wander through Chinatown late at night without being robbed, beaten, or raped - what’s the possible spiritual value in that?”) To repeat the essential, and hideously consequential point: Immigration is supposed to punish us.”

    “This is the terminal pathology of Western Civilization, in its ‘highest’ state of expression. There is not much that can be said to be fortunate about it, except that it cannot be indefinitely prolonged.”

    They want the lash.

    Yes, it’s the only thing that will make them happy. Unfortunately they want the lash for all of us as well. And we’re going to get it but good.

  76. It’s the Haitian Revolution writ large. The Final, Global Revolution.
    Rampaging underclass: Turd world Afros/Muslims/Browns
    Doughy aristocracy: First world Whites
    Objectives: Turf, gibs, looting, rape, revenge

  77. @J.Ross
    Of course he's a true "refugee," he's a thought leader on the CIA payroll!

    That CIA connection has likely been tenuous for about the last 20 years. Cold War with Red China is old news, and CIA is now woke and doesn’t care for racism, sexism and xenophobia.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    His brother got a no-work academic job in New Jersey out of it. My jealousy is not tenuous.
  78. Anonymous[327] • Disclaimer says:

    If we look at the world of nature and of evolutionary theory, we can see the real absurdity of this ‘argument’ clearly.
    With full apologies to AEsop – surely one of the wisest men ever to draw breath, and whose collected works, in a cultured society, should be compulsory school reading – we might as well concoct a table in which the generic lion – our antihero in this instance – voluntarily visits the dentist to have his fangs filed away, is declawed by the local vet, castrated, and forced to survive on a diet of herbs, all in order to show ‘his contrition’ to the harmless herbivores of the fields due to the predation of countless generations of lions past.

  79. Anonymous[599] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist
    This is perceptive stuff from Nick Land.

    But there is a further dimension he's missing.

    The hard cases on the cultural left are perpetually dissatisfied; they are not content luxuriating in their astonishing privilege and lives of ease -- much less being grateful for them. They perceive themselves to be wise and powerful, and therefore capable of mighty works -- even the humanly-impossible work of saving, redeeming, other people.

    As such, they have no use for bright, self-reliant immigrants. Instead, indeed, 'the ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor.'

    There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.

    And sure, yes, there are SJWs who 'want the lash', as he states. They long to suffer for the sins of their forebears. But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other. Are they any less prideful?

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.

    All I can say is that individuals who *really and truly* believe in this shit are, apart from being gullible to an extent which shame a 5 year old, must have lived very sheltered and very easy lives and have never had to fight or struggle for anything, or have gone without all their needs being satisfied through no effort of their own.

  80. anon[365] • Disclaimer says:
    @Svigor

    increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.
     
    South Asia is one of the more diverse regions in the world.

    So we should probably assume that South Asians know what they're talking about.

    Ha. As KK asks –

    @kavita_krishnan
    Jun 23
    More
    24-year old Shams Tabrez in Jharkhand tortured & beaten by a mob for hours, made to chant ‘Jai Shri Ram’ – and eventually died of his injuries. Is this blood-drenched slaughterhouse, then, my country? https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/jharkhand-mob-lynching-jharkhand-man-beaten-by-mob-for-hours-made-to-chant-jai-shri-ram-dies-2058068 … via @ndtv

    Yes, that country of blood-drenched diversity is your country, Kavita.

  81. To paraphrase Mencken – diversity is the theory that the elites know what they want, and white people deserve to get it good and hard.

  82. anon[365] • Disclaimer says:

    People of African origin coming to Europe can say to white supremacists in Europe, “We are here because you were there”! https://twitter.com/kavita_krishnan/

    She makes it sound like a STD. Fool around in haste, repent at leisure.

    But of course most Africans wouldn’t even be there to start with if not for Western aid and medical and agricultural advances.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/child-mortality-1990-vs-2017-slope

    https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

  83. anon[365] • Disclaimer says:
    @BenKenobi

    the import-recipes-not-people cliche…..
     
    my non-profit NGO "Recipes Without Borders" encourages diverse culinary experts to share their knowledge while also, you know, staying put.

    I'm struggling to secure funding. Perhaps you could help. There are eight ways you can donate to RWB...

    Not feasible, the technology for that just doesn’t exist yet.

    Besides, only Latinx peoples can prepare tacos, only South Asians can cook samosas, Japanese and sushi, etc. Except for the Chinese – they can appropriate anything and everything.

    We stole POC resources, technology and people. We can’t steal their recipes, too. Cultural appropriation is just like the holocaust and “Never Again” means something.

  84. This comment by the Dalai Lama is both Islamophobic and racist. He forgets that “Europe” as we know it is a product of colonisation. People of African origin coming to Europe can say to white supremacists in Europe, “We are here because you were there”

    They can say it, but they can’t change the fact that it’s a stupid and malevolent lie.

  85. @istevefan

    ..gets that "Europe" as we know it is a product of colonisation. People of African origin coming to Europe can say to white supremacists in Europe, "We are here because you were there"
     
    That is incorrect. We were not in Africa or India. Those colonies were abandoned awhile ago. So the overwhelming majority of contemporary Europeans were never there.

    Recall from the Bible, Deuteronomy 24:16:

    “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
     
    In other words we are not responsible for whatever those who came before us did.

    However, it is true that you are here. So between you and us, you are the ones in the wrong.

    In other words we are not responsible for whatever those who came before us did.

    True, but it is also true that it was not our forebears who were “there”. It was, instead, their

    rulers

    . And if we are hereditarily vicariously liable because of them, so is everyone from the other places they ruled.

  86. I agree with the Lama on Europe, but he also said in the interview that “America First” is “wrong”. Excuse me? So Europe belongs to the Europeans, but America belongs to everybody?

    Trump said “very big deal” with India coming. The only thing India exports is people. Years ago they launched a complaint to the WTO that “service” is trade, and used that to justify their outsourcing firms bringing 10 million Indians to the US since 2000.

    The last thing we need is another “big trade agreement” with these bullshit artists of the East. There’s still another 1.2 BILLION Indians left in India. How many is Kushner going to bring in this time? 100 million?

  87. @Alden
    Francis makes me think the old calvinists with their rantings about anti christ and scarlet woman of Rome were unto something. What if the next one’s worse?

    Alden:

    The next Papal Conclave will deliver a pope who in retrospect will make Francis look like a right-wing retrograde. These results are guaranteed with freshly-minted concave voters like Cupich!

    • Replies: @jim jones
    People say that the next Pope will be an African, I predict Pope Adebowale the first
    , @Desiderius
    As with the Methodist and Sicilian, the Lavender mafia will have to contend with the rise of the African.
  88. @WowJustWow
    No, the Hasidic neighborhoods make Tribeca look barren by comparison.

    No, the Hasidic neighborhoods make Tribeca look barren by comparison.

    The City’s own figures show Battery Park/Tribeca to have the highest crude birth rate (by far) in Manhattan, and the fifth-highest in the entire city. These Hasids must all live in Borough Park.

    https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/vs/2016sum.pdf

    However, Battery Park/Tribeca was near the bottom on teen births. Possibly because no teens live there. Or can afford a Subaru SUV.

  89. Another woke South Asian bitching about racism, this time in the…DNC! And in woke Seattle of all places:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/washington-senate-to-conduct-review-after-lawmaker-says-she-experienced-sexism-and-racism-in-olympia/

    “After they close that door, that’s when it gets real,” Das, who is in her first term, said at the forum. “That’s when my 28 colleagues got real. And that’s when I heard hate, that’s when I heard misogyny and racism and sexism from people you would not expect.”

    Das, whose family moved to the U.S. from India when she was an infant and who now owns a mortgage business, said this week she was talking specifically about the use of terms like “those people” and other language that seeks to distance people in diverse groups.

    “No one has said anything overtly racist or sexist, but it’s what I hear underneath it all, the coded language,” Das, 47, said Wednesday.

  90. @Clifford Brown
    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.

    Some decades ago my sister and her husband owned a mountain lion that lived with them as a pet for several years. No major problems, but when she got preggers they had to find another home for Bamboo. Kiddos and semi-tame predators not a great combo.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    Serious question: would middle class ownership of mountain lions be safer than ownership of pitbulls by prole trash?
  91. South Asians are increasingly identifying themselves as “brown people” rather than “Asians”, it’s higher up on the victimhood scale:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/washington-senate-to-conduct-review-after-lawmaker-says-she-experienced-sexism-and-racism-in-olympia/

    “If I had a complaint, I would have to complain about the entire world,” she said. “Racism, sexism, white privilege, misogyny, it’s everywhere.”

    “The hate, sexism, racism and misogyny I experienced when that [DNC] caucus room door closed would shock only the white folks in the room because the brown folks know it’s there,” she told the group.

  92. @Alden
    Francis makes me think the old calvinists with their rantings about anti christ and scarlet woman of Rome were unto something. What if the next one’s worse?

    Francis makes me think the old calvinists with their rantings about anti christ and scarlet woman of Rome were unto something.

    What would Calvin think of his own spawn?

    Open and Affirming Begins!

    In response to the recent Dutch translation of the Nashville declaration, many Dutch city halls, universities and even churches are flying the rainbow flag!

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    What would Calvin think of his own spawn?
     
    They were already famously off the reservation by the third generation. His writings do still inspire.
  93. @Dan Hayes
    Alden:

    The next Papal Conclave will deliver a pope who in retrospect will make Francis look like a right-wing retrograde. These results are guaranteed with freshly-minted concave voters like Cupich!

    People say that the next Pope will be an African, I predict Pope Adebowale the first

  94. It’s conceivable that pockets of India will have a high enough standard of living within the next 25 years to make them targets for some African migrants.

    We will see how woke Indian policies look after that.

    Even now, the Indian government loves to remind everyone that they are not even a signatory to the post ww2 international treaty about accepting or resettling refugees. And they do not even want Rohinha refugees.

    Let us see what the story is when it becomes Angola’s refugees.

  95. Hinduism is the largest non-Christian faith in Arizona and Delaware now:

    That’s if you count unorthodoxies such as Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses as Christian. If you don’t, the Mormons are still ahead of the Maharishis, Maccabeans, and Mohammedans:

  96. @peterike
    “But, increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.”

    They’ve figured out the game now, and they can smell the winning side from half a world away.

    He who smelt it dealt it.

  97. @guest
    He cannot possibly believe that, can he? I mean, I want to be sure I'm in Clown World and not Idiocracy (yet).

    Idiocracy (2006) is about ten years from now. Who knew the Beavis and Butthead guy would turn out to be a prophet.

  98. @Reg Cæsar

    Francis makes me think the old calvinists with their rantings about anti christ and scarlet woman of Rome were unto something.
     
    What would Calvin think of his own spawn?


    Open and Affirming Begins!

    In response to the recent Dutch translation of the Nashville declaration, many Dutch city halls, universities and even churches are flying the rainbow flag!

    https://cdn.roomforall.com/wp-content/uploads/13435586_1158147480872245_1855595367586383558_n-300x300.jpg

    http://www.oakgrv.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/10-9-18-Rainbow-Flag-1024x768.jpg

    https://fedchurch.org/mt-content/uploads/2018/05/rainbow-flag-and-sign_2018-05-23-20-22-19.jpg

    What would Calvin think of his own spawn?

    They were already famously off the reservation by the third generation. His writings do still inspire.

  99. @Dan Hayes
    Alden:

    The next Papal Conclave will deliver a pope who in retrospect will make Francis look like a right-wing retrograde. These results are guaranteed with freshly-minted concave voters like Cupich!

    As with the Methodist and Sicilian, the Lavender mafia will have to contend with the rise of the African.

  100. @The Last Real Calvinist
    This is perceptive stuff from Nick Land.

    But there is a further dimension he's missing.

    The hard cases on the cultural left are perpetually dissatisfied; they are not content luxuriating in their astonishing privilege and lives of ease -- much less being grateful for them. They perceive themselves to be wise and powerful, and therefore capable of mighty works -- even the humanly-impossible work of saving, redeeming, other people.

    As such, they have no use for bright, self-reliant immigrants. Instead, indeed, 'the ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor.'

    There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.

    And sure, yes, there are SJWs who 'want the lash', as he states. They long to suffer for the sins of their forebears. But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other. Are they any less prideful?

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.

    But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other.

    By their stripes…

    Nick Land is just wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.

    They want the lash alright – in their hand not on their backs!

  101. Anonymous[115] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    Isn't everybody on somebody's payroll? Aren't you?

    Maybe that's their way of making it impossible for anyone, even themselves, to determine who their assets really are. You know. Just have everybody on the payroll. Distribute the cash from the hangar where they filmed the moon landings at Area 51.

    They could just have assets who aren't assets but think they are. Assets they themselves think are assets but may or may not be. Perfect secrecy. Pay them and handle them, but don't have them really accomplish anything. Like the Dalai Lama. Like me. I like that envelope that mysteriously shows up in my mailbox.

    Double-blind asset management. It's what a stockbroker does. He thinks he's managing your assets, and you think he is, but the assets he isn't managing are not really worth anything until you get rid of them and him.

    It's like phony conspiracy theories -- like this one -- that exist just to be conflated with reasonable hypotheses -- like this one -- and thereby make them subject to ridicule. Or controlled opposition. Or not. Nothing is real. And nothing to get hung about. Strawberry Fields Forever.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1365/2497/files/IMG_3053-ANIMATION_large.gif?v=1522242950

    Now, lets talk about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez...

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money.”

  102. @guest
    Observe the Dot Indian in the new movie Yesterday, about him appropriating Liverpuddlian culture. Or perhaps to be more accurate black American musical culture as interpreted by white Englishmen. Still, nothing Asian in there. But he passes the Beatles catalogue off as his own.

    In response to a trailer for this movie, I tried to imagine the outrage to be met with a movie about a white boy who sneaks into a crypt to steal the hands Jimi Hendrix and wear them so as to magically pass off the dead legend's guitar playing as his own. (It's a horror movie, I guess.)

    “… a white boy who sneaks into a crypt to steal the hands [of] Jimi Hendrix …”

    Those hands are bones and dust. No magic left. Big waste of time. Now waiting for Eddie Van Halen.

  103. @PhysicistDave
    Rosie wrote:

    Well that’s very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate [the Dalai Lama].
     
    As a militant scientific atheist, I keep thinking I should despise this guy -- heir to a weird theocracy based on a bizarre version of Buddhism.

    Except... when he speaks out in public, he often sounds like one of the sanest people on the planet.

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet -- that does not speak well for planetary sanity.

    “As a militant scientific atheist …”

    Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?
     
    Good questions.
    , @PhysicistDave
    SunBakedSuburb asked me:


    [Dave]“As a militant scientific atheist …”
     
    [SBS]: Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?
     
    I was being a bit facetious: I doubt God exists, but I do not hate people who disagree. I am passionate about science, and I can get militant with people who aggressively deny well-established science (e.g., Young Earth Creationists).

    On the other hand, I generally find that most people of all sorts of religions are actually decent human beings (yes, even fundamentalists -- most American fundamentalists lean in a Jeffersonian direction, which is a very good thing, even if slightly ironic).
  104. @Redneck farmer
    Thank you so much for giving Jordan Peele his next movie idea.

    Jordan Peele’s next movie idea: Take a white template, plug in black. Accolades and buckets of cash follow. He’s probably America’s richest retarded negro.

  105. Anonymous[777] • Disclaimer says:

    Globondon

  106. Anon[113] • Disclaimer says:

    If the logic goes that its racist to stop Islamists and Africans from replacing Europeans, then it follows that its racist to stop Europeans from replacing Islamists and Africans.

    The biological low IQ set will always lose logical arguments. They should merely try to silently get away with as much as they can for as long as they can until the music inevitably stops. They’ll realize a longer time in the sun with that method.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >logic
    Playing the wrong game old sport.
    >low IQ always lose
    Low IQ dominate everything they join because it must be slowed down to their speed. The best answer is to exclude them. The Constitution lets people do that and the current law school understanding of the same document does not.
  107. Anon[371] • Disclaimer says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Rosie wrote:

    Well that’s very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate [the Dalai Lama].
     
    As a militant scientific atheist, I keep thinking I should despise this guy -- heir to a weird theocracy based on a bizarre version of Buddhism.

    Except... when he speaks out in public, he often sounds like one of the sanest people on the planet.

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet -- that does not speak well for planetary sanity.

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet — that does not speak well for planetary sanity

    I think that it would be best qualified as Tibetan Buddhism (as apart from other Tantric sects practiced by wholly different peoples in different nations), but you are technically correct in how you qualify it.

    Its best to think of Tibetan Buddhism as a cultural repository for myths that, when decoded, can meaningfully describe present situations. Most people think of religions in terms of practice (going to church, meditating, etc), which is merely enacting myth or awaiting its arrival. The myth is where the meat is. One of their myths has them defeating Islam in a final war. Their sanity may spread further than first thought.

  108. @ScarletNumber
    Your friend was screwed. WCW is hispanic by virtue of his Puerto Rican mother, much like Ted Williams is hispanic by virtue of his Mexican mother.

    Your friend was screwed. WCW is hispanic by virtue of his Puerto Rican mother, much like Ted Williams is hispanic by virtue of his Mexican mother.

    She had a fun time arguing the point with the campus higher-ups. You see, they couldn’t just come out and say that William Carlos Williams doesn’t count because he’s White…….which meant that the conversation had a Monty Python-esque, wink-wink, nudge-nudge quality….

  109. …increasingly, South Asians lecture us that Diversity Is Your Punishment.

    It’s almost as if they understand their own lack-of-desirability.

  110. anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @guest
    "The world's most famous refugee"

    Why is Mr. Lama a refugee? Oh right, irreligious immigrants, I mean invaders from Red China drove him out. Which I guess means Tibet should have drowned Mao's army in a Rio Grande of their own.

    CIA trained Tibetans in insurgency warfare at Camp Hale in Colorado in the 1950s and airdropped them with weapons back into Tibet. It was calamity from there.

  111. anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @White Guy In Japan
    Leave Africa to the tender mercies of the Chinese.

    The strategy of the Chinese government in Africa is to be very nice and sweet. There are about 1 million Chinese in Africa (it’s declining quite fast) who are not part of the official program. A lot of friction and stuff like ivory poaching is from there.

  112. @SunBakedSuburb
    "As a militant scientific atheist ..."

    Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?

    Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?

    Good questions.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    PDave’s about as militant as my wife’s (and thus my) cat. The one that’s almost sixteen.
  113. @fnn
    That CIA connection has likely been tenuous for about the last 20 years. Cold War with Red China is old news, and CIA is now woke and doesn't care for racism, sexism and xenophobia.

    His brother got a no-work academic job in New Jersey out of it. My jealousy is not tenuous.

  114. @Anon
    If the logic goes that its racist to stop Islamists and Africans from replacing Europeans, then it follows that its racist to stop Europeans from replacing Islamists and Africans.

    The biological low IQ set will always lose logical arguments. They should merely try to silently get away with as much as they can for as long as they can until the music inevitably stops. They'll realize a longer time in the sun with that method.

    >logic
    Playing the wrong game old sport.
    >low IQ always lose
    Low IQ dominate everything they join because it must be slowed down to their speed. The best answer is to exclude them. The Constitution lets people do that and the current law school understanding of the same document does not.

  115. From “Diversity Is Our Strength” to “Diversity Is Your Punishment”

    Very catchy! Very funny! This is Steve Sailer at his best.

  116. @YetAnotherAnon
    Diversity as punishment?

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17731942.greedy-pigs-cafe-wont-change-its-name-after-anonymous-letter-brands-it-disgusting-shameful-and-offensive/

    "Please immediately change the name of your shop to something else which is not offensive. There is no need to call it Greedy Pigs.

    Use common sense. That’s not how you should be naming a shop. Not everyone in the communities believes in the same thing as you and not everyone agrees nor appreciates silly shop names as the one you have put up outside your shop.

    So the first thing you need to do is change that stupid name from the shop’s sign board and get rid of the pictures of the pigs. Not everyone finds the name Greedy Pigs or the pictures of pigs to be pleasant and not everyone consumes pork and pig products.


    Miss Harper, 45, who has been open for 16 months, says she first received a similar letter a couple of months after opening and then it went quiet.

    But she says she has received the second letter against a backdrop of young Asian males driving past, hurling abusive language at her and so she took the decision to report it to police in fear of something else happening."
     
    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/resources/images/10047112


    In other local news

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17722868.bradford-man-admits-setting-fire-to-ilkley-moor/

    "A Bradford man has been warned to expect “a substantial sentence of imprisonment” after he pleaded guilty to setting fire to Ilkley Moor. Mohammed Zulkifl, 20..."

    I have always hated the phrase “common sense” because it doesn’t mean anything (its most common reasonable meaning is “hindsight,” which moots its use in admonitions) but it’s interesting to see it mean “Islam (submission).”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    It’s the inverse of clever silliness.
  117. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:

    I have to agree, South Asians in the US as a group are the most obnoxious and hypocritical lefties, first of all, most of these fellows are upper cast bastards who have followed an apartheid like system for 1000s of years and are usually very right wing back in India – the Communist parties of India is on the verge of disappearing in India, they won only 1 seat in the recent elections, they used to be a powerful block).

    I attribute that to their “white skin complex” (a combination or envy, inferiority complex and chip on the shoulder). No other race of people value “fair” or “white” skin more than Indians as it is tied in to the “color ” system of the Hindu caste system, and to a much lesser and decreasing extent their British colonial legacy. When these elites come over here and succeed (education and money), they look around and see relatively poorly educated and much poorer working class whites running around with “fairer” skin which they have internalized to be superior. Also they deal with and compete with elite whites in their lives and any friction they may experience is attributed to their lack of “white/fair skin” hence “racism” and develop a chip on the shoulder, then they go out and have to deal with working class whites with similar “white skin” and they get schizophrenic. These fellows need therapy as a group, they are not fit to live in a multi-racial environment.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    Also they never miss a chance in lecturing the Brits of their sin of colonialism yet their country India behaves like a colonial power to its smaller neighbors. Just disgusting.
    , @Anonymous
    Exactly right.
  118. Somebody should ask the Dalai Lama about the increasingly popular idea that immigration is Karmic Vengeance for your ancestors’ sins.

    If there was anything like Karma- Mongol people would not exist now. Just check 13th & 14th C.

  119. If we were to be consistent, being a colonizer (even a genocidal one) is not a bar to be indigenous. After all, the Maori genocided the original inhabitants of New Zealand, yet they are considered indigenous.

    All this talk of the evils of colonization is never aimed at Arabs, Mongols, Turks, or other major colonizers. How odd.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Brown/black skin = always indigenous

    White skin =never indigenous

    Pretty simple really.
    , @Cowboy shaw
    I've looked at this pretty hard, and although the leftists get apoplectic with rage if any one suggests anyone was in new Zealand before the Maori, there is no persuasive evidence anyone was. They are probably right, and its one of those issues it's not worth holding a contrary view.
    , @syonredux

    If we were to be consistent, being a colonizer (even a genocidal one) is not a bar to be indigenous. After all, the Maori genocided the original inhabitants of New Zealand, yet they are considered indigenous.
     
    Pretty sure that the Maori were the first humans to settle in NZ.

    That being said, the Maori certainly would have been willing to massacre/enslave people who were in their way:

    In 1835 some displaced Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama, from the Taranaki region, but living in Wellington, invaded the Chathams. On 19 November 1835, the brig Lord Rodney, a hijacked[30] European ship, arrived carrying 500 Māori (men, women and children) with guns, clubs and axes, and loaded with 78 tonnes of potatoes for planting, followed by another load, by the same ship, of 400 more Māori on 5 December 1835. Before the second shipment of people arrived, the invaders killed a 12-year-old girl and hung her flesh on posts.[31] They proceeded to enslave some Moriori and kill and cannibalise others. With the arrival of the second group "parties of warriors armed with muskets, clubs and tomahawks, led by their chiefs, walked through Moriori tribal territories and settlements without warning, permission or greeting. If the districts were wanted by the invaders, they curtly informed the inhabitants that their land had been taken and the Moriori living there were now vassals."[32]
     

    A hui or council of Moriori elders was convened at the settlement called Te Awapatiki. Despite knowing of the Māori predilection for warfare, and despite the admonition by some of the elder chiefs that the principle of Nunuku was not appropriate now, two chiefs — Tapata and Torea — declared that "the law of Nunuku was not a strategy for survival, to be varied as conditions changed; it was a moral imperative."[32] Although this council decided in favour of peace, the invading Māori inferred it was a prelude to war, as was common practice during the Musket Wars. This precipitated a massacre, most complete in the Waitangi area followed by an enslavement of the Morori survivors.[33]
     

    A Moriori survivor recalled : "[The Māori] commenced to kill us like sheep.... [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed – men, women and children indiscriminately." A Māori conqueror explained, "We took possession... in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped....." [34] The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days.[35]
     

    During the following enslavement the Māori invaders forbade the speaking of the Moriori language. They forced Moriori to desecrate their sacred sites by urinating and defecating on them.[35] Moriori were forbidden to marry Moriori or Māori, or to have children with each other. Which was different from the customary form of slavery practiced on mainland New Zealand.[36] However, many Moriori women had children by their Māori masters. A small number of Moriori women eventually married either Māori or European men. Some were taken from the Chathams and never returned. In 1842 a small party of Māori and their Moriori slaves migrated to the subantarctic Auckland Islands, surviving for some 20 years on sealing and flax growing.[37] Only 101 Moriori out of a population of about 2,000 were left alive by 1862.[38]

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori#Invasion_by_Taranaki_M%C4%81ori_(1835%E2%80%931868)
    , @Logan
    As others have probably noted, there were no people on New Zealand when the Maori arrived.

    The same people who became the Maori also colonized the Chatham Islands and became the Moriori. When the Maori later learned about the Moriori they invaded and raped, slaughtered and ate the Moriori. Wiped them out, though apparently there are still some Moriori descendants (female genetic line only, all the males having been killed).

    So if there had been people on NZ when the Maori arrived they would certainly have wiped them out, as they did so much of the local fauna.
  120. I know I have said this before, but …

    being a colonising power is neither necessary nor sufficient for reverse colonisation.

    It is not necessary, since Norway, Sweden, and many other European nations never had any empire yet they are being ethnically replaced too.

    It is not sufficient, since Turkey and Japan had empires – Japan’s being short lived but extremely brutal – but no-one is demanding that their populations are replaced.

  121. @Clifford Brown
    There is a family in Tribeca with a ground floor apartment who own a serval that is always looking out of their large street level window. Stunning animal, but I think it it is crazy that keep it around their kids.

    Most cat species are probably less threatening to people than many breeds of domestic dogs*. Cats tend to be rather shy, and they are cunning and cautious hunters, not voracious and domineering**

    *Some domestic dog breeds should not be tolerated in the presence of smaller children

    **Old World Lions are the exception that proves the rule.

  122. @Logan
    Some decades ago my sister and her husband owned a mountain lion that lived with them as a pet for several years. No major problems, but when she got preggers they had to find another home for Bamboo. Kiddos and semi-tame predators not a great combo.

    Serious question: would middle class ownership of mountain lions be safer than ownership of pitbulls by prole trash?

    • Replies: @Logan
    Safer to whom? The neighbors? Their own kids? Themselves?

    Pit bulls can (mostly) be socialized to be pretty safe around people, even children. A mountain lion is at best semi-tamed. They simply are not domesticated animals and so I think are inherently more dangerous and unpredictable than any dog.

    Just my non-expert opinion.
  123. @jbwilson24
    If we were to be consistent, being a colonizer (even a genocidal one) is not a bar to be indigenous. After all, the Maori genocided the original inhabitants of New Zealand, yet they are considered indigenous.

    All this talk of the evils of colonization is never aimed at Arabs, Mongols, Turks, or other major colonizers. How odd.

    Brown/black skin = always indigenous

    White skin =never indigenous

    Pretty simple really.

  124. @Rosie

    Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?
     
    Good questions.

    PDave’s about as militant as my wife’s (and thus my) cat. The one that’s almost sixteen.

  125. @J.Ross
    I have always hated the phrase "common sense" because it doesn't mean anything (its most common reasonable meaning is "hindsight," which moots its use in admonitions) but it's interesting to see it mean "Islam (submission)."

    It’s the inverse of clever silliness.

  126. @PhysicistDave
    Rosie wrote:

    Well that’s very gracious of the CIA to bankroll a very likeable ethnonationalist advocate [the Dalai Lama].
     
    As a militant scientific atheist, I keep thinking I should despise this guy -- heir to a weird theocracy based on a bizarre version of Buddhism.

    Except... when he speaks out in public, he often sounds like one of the sanest people on the planet.

    The leader of Tantric Buddhism is now one of the sanest people on the planet -- that does not speak well for planetary sanity.
  127. @guest
    He cannot possibly believe that, can he? I mean, I want to be sure I'm in Clown World and not Idiocracy (yet).

    These people have been inculcated by media, academia etc. with a sense of superiority over us. Even though of course nothing in the real world supports this notion.

  128. @Anonymous
    I have to agree, South Asians in the US as a group are the most obnoxious and hypocritical lefties, first of all, most of these fellows are upper cast bastards who have followed an apartheid like system for 1000s of years and are usually very right wing back in India - the Communist parties of India is on the verge of disappearing in India, they won only 1 seat in the recent elections, they used to be a powerful block).

    I attribute that to their "white skin complex" (a combination or envy, inferiority complex and chip on the shoulder). No other race of people value "fair" or "white" skin more than Indians as it is tied in to the "color " system of the Hindu caste system, and to a much lesser and decreasing extent their British colonial legacy. When these elites come over here and succeed (education and money), they look around and see relatively poorly educated and much poorer working class whites running around with "fairer" skin which they have internalized to be superior. Also they deal with and compete with elite whites in their lives and any friction they may experience is attributed to their lack of "white/fair skin" hence "racism" and develop a chip on the shoulder, then they go out and have to deal with working class whites with similar "white skin" and they get schizophrenic. These fellows need therapy as a group, they are not fit to live in a multi-racial environment.

    Also they never miss a chance in lecturing the Brits of their sin of colonialism yet their country India behaves like a colonial power to its smaller neighbors. Just disgusting.

  129. Anonymous[244] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    I have to agree, South Asians in the US as a group are the most obnoxious and hypocritical lefties, first of all, most of these fellows are upper cast bastards who have followed an apartheid like system for 1000s of years and are usually very right wing back in India - the Communist parties of India is on the verge of disappearing in India, they won only 1 seat in the recent elections, they used to be a powerful block).

    I attribute that to their "white skin complex" (a combination or envy, inferiority complex and chip on the shoulder). No other race of people value "fair" or "white" skin more than Indians as it is tied in to the "color " system of the Hindu caste system, and to a much lesser and decreasing extent their British colonial legacy. When these elites come over here and succeed (education and money), they look around and see relatively poorly educated and much poorer working class whites running around with "fairer" skin which they have internalized to be superior. Also they deal with and compete with elite whites in their lives and any friction they may experience is attributed to their lack of "white/fair skin" hence "racism" and develop a chip on the shoulder, then they go out and have to deal with working class whites with similar "white skin" and they get schizophrenic. These fellows need therapy as a group, they are not fit to live in a multi-racial environment.

    Exactly right.

  130. @SunBakedSuburb
    "As a militant scientific atheist ..."

    Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?

    SunBakedSuburb asked me:

    [Dave]“As a militant scientific atheist …”

    [SBS]: Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?

    I was being a bit facetious: I doubt God exists, but I do not hate people who disagree. I am passionate about science, and I can get militant with people who aggressively deny well-established science (e.g., Young Earth Creationists).

    On the other hand, I generally find that most people of all sorts of religions are actually decent human beings (yes, even fundamentalists — most American fundamentalists lean in a Jeffersonian direction, which is a very good thing, even if slightly ironic).

    • Replies: @getaclue
    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don't believe in Hell you won't go there, see how that works?....--see they can explain everything by "science" including this real Egyptian Government verified event that occurred in Zeitoun, Egypt in 1968 which completely proves that they are in fact totally clueless as to their "beliefs": https://churchpop.com/2016/03/15/witnessed-millions-unexplanable-apparition-lady-zeitoun/
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    Thoughtful response. Thanks.
  131. @jbwilson24
    If we were to be consistent, being a colonizer (even a genocidal one) is not a bar to be indigenous. After all, the Maori genocided the original inhabitants of New Zealand, yet they are considered indigenous.

    All this talk of the evils of colonization is never aimed at Arabs, Mongols, Turks, or other major colonizers. How odd.

    I’ve looked at this pretty hard, and although the leftists get apoplectic with rage if any one suggests anyone was in new Zealand before the Maori, there is no persuasive evidence anyone was. They are probably right, and its one of those issues it’s not worth holding a contrary view.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Getting to New Zealand is pretty hard.
  132. @Cowboy shaw
    I've looked at this pretty hard, and although the leftists get apoplectic with rage if any one suggests anyone was in new Zealand before the Maori, there is no persuasive evidence anyone was. They are probably right, and its one of those issues it's not worth holding a contrary view.

    Getting to New Zealand is pretty hard.

  133. @J.Ross
    Of course he's a true "refugee," he's a thought leader on the CIA payroll!

    I thought the CIA and most of the USA Deep State and Congress (Feinstein/Spy Driver, McConnel/$25 Million from the ChiComs funneled thru his wife’s parents etc….) actually work for the Communists and ChiComs? Certainly you don’t believe any of them work for the USA or the USA taxpayer–no ones that much of an idiot these days? Don’t see that possibly ancient tenuous history as amounting to anything given the wholesale sellout to Communism we are seeing come to light here in the good ole USA itself, proving the hated Joe McCarthy was of course totally right as to the infiltration by Communist (intent on destroying the what was the country (done!)) of the Media, Entertainment, Academia, Government/St. Dept — as we now also know from the Soviet records did in fact happen, the Dalai Lama, unlike the Pope, is not a “Liberation Theology”/Communism proponent nor it seems a liar and has personally experienced the Population Replacement type Kalergi Plan against his own country–Good Man he is! Too bad there are so few other courageous and honest leaders religious or otherwise! If he would convert would love to see him trade out for the current Pope — no doubt he would light years better job for the Church and the World!

  134. @Clifford Brown
    TUCKER/ LAMA 2020!

    I'm a Dalai Lama fan, although his lectures tend to be rambling and not terribly insightful. He has a playful Yoda like sense of humor that is endearing, but slightly unserious.

    I went to a Dalai Lama speech in Central Park and I distinctly remember him saying a few things that were vaguely critical of homosexuality. Raised an eyebrow from me, but I think most people were too blissed out to pick up on what he was saying.

    “DL is pretty nasty”? As opposed to who? Madeleine Albright and her great statement endorsing the Mass Murder of 500,000 children in Iraq by USA sanctions? Hillary Clinton and Obama plotting to murder the Libyan leader and causing the country to descend in chaos and mass murder with the re-institution of slavery? Tony Blair? The ChiComs? He seems to have a lot more honesty and courage than most all Western “Leaders” that come to mind. Wikileaks said something–Whatever.

  135. @syonredux

    America is going to be be majority brown soon, too. By 2045, whites will comprise 49.7% of the population.
     
    Try not to drool, dear boy....

    There's no need to worry though:
     
    MMMM, dunno. In my experience, when someone says there's "no need to worry," that's usually code for "you need to start worrying."

    this just means better food,
     
    The diversity-equals-better-dining cliche.....guess that I'll counter that with the import-recipes-not-people cliche.....

    And while I'm on the topic of food, why are SJWs so obsessed with gastronomic matters?Do they just sit around eating all the time?

    better literature,
     
    Yeah, everybody knows that the US-Latinx community is just bursting with literary talent. I mean, just look at all the great US-Latinx authors.......and I'm drawing a blank here. I can't think of any US-Latinx who can withstand comparison with the likes of Poe, Henry James, Mark Twain, TS Eliot, Robert Frost, Hawthorne, Melville, Faulkner, Hemingway, Edith Wharton, Willa Cather, Wallace Stevens, Emily Dickinson, Stephen Crane, William Dean Howells, etc, etc, etc

    and a greater symphony of languages,
     
    One symphony is another man's cacophony...

    art,
     
    MMMM, let's see, this


    https://nbclatino.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/deathofrubensalazar.jpg

    Vs this


    https://uploads5.wikiart.org/images/james-mcneill-whistler/arrangement-in-grey-and-black-no-2-portrait-of-thomas-carlyle-1873.jpg

    and beauty.
     
    Dear me, back-to-back Vs.....

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg/1200px-Jeunes_femmes_mayas.jpg


    http://tribupedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1940s-Female-Students-Outside-Doing-Thier-Work-Drinking-Coke-700x686.jpg

    If you agree to add some kind of poison to your creations whenever they are served to “Whitey” I think we can get a Soros’ NGO to come up with some serious financing for your project!

  136. @PhysicistDave
    SunBakedSuburb asked me:


    [Dave]“As a militant scientific atheist …”
     
    [SBS]: Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?
     
    I was being a bit facetious: I doubt God exists, but I do not hate people who disagree. I am passionate about science, and I can get militant with people who aggressively deny well-established science (e.g., Young Earth Creationists).

    On the other hand, I generally find that most people of all sorts of religions are actually decent human beings (yes, even fundamentalists -- most American fundamentalists lean in a Jeffersonian direction, which is a very good thing, even if slightly ironic).

    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don’t believe in Hell you won’t go there, see how that works?….–see they can explain everything by “science” including this real Egyptian Government verified event that occurred in Zeitoun, Egypt in 1968 which completely proves that they are in fact totally clueless as to their “beliefs”: https://churchpop.com/2016/03/15/witnessed-millions-unexplanable-apparition-lady-zeitoun/

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    getaclue wrote to me:

    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don’t believe in Hell you won’t go there, see how that works?
     
    The issue -- really the only issue -- is whether the claims of religion are true.

    Do you believe that it is literally true, as Matthew claimed (Mt. 4: 8), that Satan took Jesus up onto a mountain from which they could see "all the kingdoms of the world" (hint: there is no such mountain)?

    Do you think Matthew was correct that Jesus came riding into Jerusalem somehow astride two asses at the same time (Mt. 21:1-7), even though the other Gospels say nothing of the sort (hint: this is simply due to an obvious misreading of Zech. 9:9)?

    Or how about Matthew's claim, made by no other Evangelist, that a bunch of dead people came back to life and wandered around Jerusalem after the Resurrection (Mt. 27: 52-53) (hint: wouldn't this have sort of made a splash even with non-Christians, such as Josephus' sources, not to mention other Christian sources?)?

    Or the Gadarene swine (Mt. 8:28-34)?

    And, I'm just getting started on Matthew alone!!

    Now, I know that lots of apologists have come up with ingenious ways of trying to twist Matthew's words so that somehow this is all "true." And, I also know that most Christians would simply say, "Hey, the Bible is not a police report: the Bible is "true" in a "higher sense" than mere factual accuracy: it conveys messages that resonate with me personally."

    And, that actually is okay: I find the Infancy Narrative in Luke to be enchanting, and I find the various Passion narratives to be moving. In some sense, perhaps, they are "true." But, they are not actually, factually true.

    The main difference between we "Atheistic Scientific types" whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.

    Yes, I know, you'd never invite us to a dinner party!
  137. @jbwilson24
    If we were to be consistent, being a colonizer (even a genocidal one) is not a bar to be indigenous. After all, the Maori genocided the original inhabitants of New Zealand, yet they are considered indigenous.

    All this talk of the evils of colonization is never aimed at Arabs, Mongols, Turks, or other major colonizers. How odd.

    If we were to be consistent, being a colonizer (even a genocidal one) is not a bar to be indigenous. After all, the Maori genocided the original inhabitants of New Zealand, yet they are considered indigenous.

    Pretty sure that the Maori were the first humans to settle in NZ.

    That being said, the Maori certainly would have been willing to massacre/enslave people who were in their way:

    In 1835 some displaced Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama, from the Taranaki region, but living in Wellington, invaded the Chathams. On 19 November 1835, the brig Lord Rodney, a hijacked[30] European ship, arrived carrying 500 Māori (men, women and children) with guns, clubs and axes, and loaded with 78 tonnes of potatoes for planting, followed by another load, by the same ship, of 400 more Māori on 5 December 1835. Before the second shipment of people arrived, the invaders killed a 12-year-old girl and hung her flesh on posts.[31] They proceeded to enslave some Moriori and kill and cannibalise others. With the arrival of the second group “parties of warriors armed with muskets, clubs and tomahawks, led by their chiefs, walked through Moriori tribal territories and settlements without warning, permission or greeting. If the districts were wanted by the invaders, they curtly informed the inhabitants that their land had been taken and the Moriori living there were now vassals.”[32]

    A hui or council of Moriori elders was convened at the settlement called Te Awapatiki. Despite knowing of the Māori predilection for warfare, and despite the admonition by some of the elder chiefs that the principle of Nunuku was not appropriate now, two chiefs — Tapata and Torea — declared that “the law of Nunuku was not a strategy for survival, to be varied as conditions changed; it was a moral imperative.”[32] Although this council decided in favour of peace, the invading Māori inferred it was a prelude to war, as was common practice during the Musket Wars. This precipitated a massacre, most complete in the Waitangi area followed by an enslavement of the Morori survivors.[33]

    A Moriori survivor recalled : “[The Māori] commenced to kill us like sheep…. [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed – men, women and children indiscriminately.” A Māori conqueror explained, “We took possession… in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped…..” [34] The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days.[35]

    During the following enslavement the Māori invaders forbade the speaking of the Moriori language. They forced Moriori to desecrate their sacred sites by urinating and defecating on them.[35] Moriori were forbidden to marry Moriori or Māori, or to have children with each other. Which was different from the customary form of slavery practiced on mainland New Zealand.[36] However, many Moriori women had children by their Māori masters. A small number of Moriori women eventually married either Māori or European men. Some were taken from the Chathams and never returned. In 1842 a small party of Māori and their Moriori slaves migrated to the subantarctic Auckland Islands, surviving for some 20 years on sealing and flax growing.[37] Only 101 Moriori out of a population of about 2,000 were left alive by 1862.[38]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori#Invasion_by_Taranaki_M%C4%81ori_(1835%E2%80%931868)

  138. @Reg Cæsar

    Or at least limit their population growth
     
    Are you volunteering to slip the condoms on them?

    @reg…or maybe he means ramp up the vaccination programs for children.

  139. @getaclue
    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don't believe in Hell you won't go there, see how that works?....--see they can explain everything by "science" including this real Egyptian Government verified event that occurred in Zeitoun, Egypt in 1968 which completely proves that they are in fact totally clueless as to their "beliefs": https://churchpop.com/2016/03/15/witnessed-millions-unexplanable-apparition-lady-zeitoun/

    getaclue wrote to me:

    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don’t believe in Hell you won’t go there, see how that works?

    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.

    Do you believe that it is literally true, as Matthew claimed (Mt. 4: 8), that Satan took Jesus up onto a mountain from which they could see “all the kingdoms of the world” (hint: there is no such mountain)?

    Do you think Matthew was correct that Jesus came riding into Jerusalem somehow astride two asses at the same time (Mt. 21:1-7), even though the other Gospels say nothing of the sort (hint: this is simply due to an obvious misreading of Zech. 9:9)?

    Or how about Matthew’s claim, made by no other Evangelist, that a bunch of dead people came back to life and wandered around Jerusalem after the Resurrection (Mt. 27: 52-53) (hint: wouldn’t this have sort of made a splash even with non-Christians, such as Josephus’ sources, not to mention other Christian sources?)?

    Or the Gadarene swine (Mt. 8:28-34)?

    And, I’m just getting started on Matthew alone!!

    Now, I know that lots of apologists have come up with ingenious ways of trying to twist Matthew’s words so that somehow this is all “true.” And, I also know that most Christians would simply say, “Hey, the Bible is not a police report: the Bible is “true” in a “higher sense” than mere factual accuracy: it conveys messages that resonate with me personally.”

    And, that actually is okay: I find the Infancy Narrative in Luke to be enchanting, and I find the various Passion narratives to be moving. In some sense, perhaps, they are “true.” But, they are not actually, factually true.

    The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.

    Yes, I know, you’d never invite us to a dinner party!

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.
     
    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they're true or not is of zero importance.

    The trouble with militant atheists is that they can't look at religion in a pragmatic way. No-one is asking you to actually believe. All you're being asked to do is to consider whether it's a good thing that others believe.
    , @Desiderius

    The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.
     
    The "know" in this sentence is the Gnostic know. Even aside from faith, as just proper skeptics as every intelligent man should be, we know no such thing.

    As practicing Christians by the rule of faith we know something entirely different. Since you're not, you don't, which is fine. Just don't be surprised when you come across to people like an unschooled layman holding forth on string theory after reading a couple papers.

    , @Desiderius
    https://quillette.com/2019/06/22/the-inner-nature-of-freedom/
  140. @The Last Real Calvinist
    This is perceptive stuff from Nick Land.

    But there is a further dimension he's missing.

    The hard cases on the cultural left are perpetually dissatisfied; they are not content luxuriating in their astonishing privilege and lives of ease -- much less being grateful for them. They perceive themselves to be wise and powerful, and therefore capable of mighty works -- even the humanly-impossible work of saving, redeeming, other people.

    As such, they have no use for bright, self-reliant immigrants. Instead, indeed, 'the ideal immigrant in this vision of infinitized moral purgation is not a social asset, but a wretched, dysfunctional parasite, or better still an arrogant, contemptuous aggressor.'

    There is little credit in welcoming the capable and orderly, but there may be glory in raising up the downtrodden.

    And sure, yes, there are SJWs who 'want the lash', as he states. They long to suffer for the sins of their forebears. But they also believe that, by so doing, they can save the oppressed and hopeless Other. Are they any less prideful?

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.

    Nick Land sees masochism and self-loathing; I see a relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others.

    That relentless, arrogant, ultimately pitiless thirst for power over the lives of others is clearly very much what Woke Capital wants.

  141. @PhysicistDave
    getaclue wrote to me:

    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don’t believe in Hell you won’t go there, see how that works?
     
    The issue -- really the only issue -- is whether the claims of religion are true.

    Do you believe that it is literally true, as Matthew claimed (Mt. 4: 8), that Satan took Jesus up onto a mountain from which they could see "all the kingdoms of the world" (hint: there is no such mountain)?

    Do you think Matthew was correct that Jesus came riding into Jerusalem somehow astride two asses at the same time (Mt. 21:1-7), even though the other Gospels say nothing of the sort (hint: this is simply due to an obvious misreading of Zech. 9:9)?

    Or how about Matthew's claim, made by no other Evangelist, that a bunch of dead people came back to life and wandered around Jerusalem after the Resurrection (Mt. 27: 52-53) (hint: wouldn't this have sort of made a splash even with non-Christians, such as Josephus' sources, not to mention other Christian sources?)?

    Or the Gadarene swine (Mt. 8:28-34)?

    And, I'm just getting started on Matthew alone!!

    Now, I know that lots of apologists have come up with ingenious ways of trying to twist Matthew's words so that somehow this is all "true." And, I also know that most Christians would simply say, "Hey, the Bible is not a police report: the Bible is "true" in a "higher sense" than mere factual accuracy: it conveys messages that resonate with me personally."

    And, that actually is okay: I find the Infancy Narrative in Luke to be enchanting, and I find the various Passion narratives to be moving. In some sense, perhaps, they are "true." But, they are not actually, factually true.

    The main difference between we "Atheistic Scientific types" whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.

    Yes, I know, you'd never invite us to a dinner party!

    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.

    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they’re true or not is of zero importance.

    The trouble with militant atheists is that they can’t look at religion in a pragmatic way. No-one is asking you to actually believe. All you’re being asked to do is to consider whether it’s a good thing that others believe.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    dfordoom wrote to me:


    [Dave] The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.
     
    [dfordoom] The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they’re true or not is of zero importance.
     
    .The problem, of course, is that you can't argue for that consistently and publicly.

    I.e., if, say, all the members of the clergy were to shout this from the rooftops (and I have personally known a number of members of the clergy who privately admitted it was all lies -- but of course they did not shout this from the rooftops!), then the folks in the pews would all know the truth.

    And, then the supposed social utility would vanish.

    A bit of a performative paradox, eh?

    After all, you yourself are only posting here under a pseudonymous screen-name, and on a forum that not too many of your acquaintances who really do believe are likely to see.

    But people are starting to figure out the truth, even the poor ordinary folks in the pews.

    "Noble lies" tend to fall apart... eventually.
    , @nebulafox
    >The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they’re true or not is of zero importance.

    Hello, High Inquisitor!

    The noble lie theory at its heart betrays an lack of faith in the potential for humanity. That this lack of esteem might be well justified doesn't change the essentially distasteful nature of it all.

    Dostoevsky, as a non-Euclidean man capable of handling the paradox, might have preferred to remain with Christ over the truth. I have not found the ability to do that.

    Do I think religion should be openly attacked? Absolutely not. Apart from basic decency and moral considerations, Dawkins and Company (as they themselves admitted in retrospect!) really underestimated how much uglier the replacements for Christianity could be in the wake of the vacuum made by a too-sudden rupture. This is a big shift for Western culture, and I don't think we are at all handling it correctly in failing to find a true new purpose to our lives, in the absence of anything divinely guided. People don't need or want endless comfort all day long.

    But that doesn't change the essential fact that so many people here miss. Christianity might not be going extinct worldwide any time soon, but Christianity's future will mostly lie outside the Western world: Africa, Central America. There are reasons for that. Europe is no longer the faith, the faith no longer Europe. That ideal had a good 1000+ year run. It's gone now. This is going to deeply impact right-wing politics in the future.

    , @Anonymous
    Who gets to define 'social utility'?

    We on this forum complain about leftist attempts to obscure or deny racial differences, but these people are lying from the best of motives. They truly believe that a multiracial society like the U.S. will violently tear itself apart if people don't believe in racial equality.
  142. @jbwilson24
    If we were to be consistent, being a colonizer (even a genocidal one) is not a bar to be indigenous. After all, the Maori genocided the original inhabitants of New Zealand, yet they are considered indigenous.

    All this talk of the evils of colonization is never aimed at Arabs, Mongols, Turks, or other major colonizers. How odd.

    As others have probably noted, there were no people on New Zealand when the Maori arrived.

    The same people who became the Maori also colonized the Chatham Islands and became the Moriori. When the Maori later learned about the Moriori they invaded and raped, slaughtered and ate the Moriori. Wiped them out, though apparently there are still some Moriori descendants (female genetic line only, all the males having been killed).

    So if there had been people on NZ when the Maori arrived they would certainly have wiped them out, as they did so much of the local fauna.

  143. @Feryl
    Serious question: would middle class ownership of mountain lions be safer than ownership of pitbulls by prole trash?

    Safer to whom? The neighbors? Their own kids? Themselves?

    Pit bulls can (mostly) be socialized to be pretty safe around people, even children. A mountain lion is at best semi-tamed. They simply are not domesticated animals and so I think are inherently more dangerous and unpredictable than any dog.

    Just my non-expert opinion.

  144. it conveys messages that resonate with me personally

    They do, but not just me, which is the actual point.

  145. @PhysicistDave
    getaclue wrote to me:

    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don’t believe in Hell you won’t go there, see how that works?
     
    The issue -- really the only issue -- is whether the claims of religion are true.

    Do you believe that it is literally true, as Matthew claimed (Mt. 4: 8), that Satan took Jesus up onto a mountain from which they could see "all the kingdoms of the world" (hint: there is no such mountain)?

    Do you think Matthew was correct that Jesus came riding into Jerusalem somehow astride two asses at the same time (Mt. 21:1-7), even though the other Gospels say nothing of the sort (hint: this is simply due to an obvious misreading of Zech. 9:9)?

    Or how about Matthew's claim, made by no other Evangelist, that a bunch of dead people came back to life and wandered around Jerusalem after the Resurrection (Mt. 27: 52-53) (hint: wouldn't this have sort of made a splash even with non-Christians, such as Josephus' sources, not to mention other Christian sources?)?

    Or the Gadarene swine (Mt. 8:28-34)?

    And, I'm just getting started on Matthew alone!!

    Now, I know that lots of apologists have come up with ingenious ways of trying to twist Matthew's words so that somehow this is all "true." And, I also know that most Christians would simply say, "Hey, the Bible is not a police report: the Bible is "true" in a "higher sense" than mere factual accuracy: it conveys messages that resonate with me personally."

    And, that actually is okay: I find the Infancy Narrative in Luke to be enchanting, and I find the various Passion narratives to be moving. In some sense, perhaps, they are "true." But, they are not actually, factually true.

    The main difference between we "Atheistic Scientific types" whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.

    Yes, I know, you'd never invite us to a dinner party!

    The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.

    The “know” in this sentence is the Gnostic know. Even aside from faith, as just proper skeptics as every intelligent man should be, we know no such thing.

    As practicing Christians by the rule of faith we know something entirely different. Since you’re not, you don’t, which is fine. Just don’t be surprised when you come across to people like an unschooled layman holding forth on string theory after reading a couple papers.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:


    [Dave] The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.
     
    [Desiderius]The “know” in this sentence is the Gnostic know. Even aside from faith, as just proper skeptics as every intelligent man should be, we know no such thing.
     
    Well... in all honesty, while you yourself may be a real true believer, I think you may be more than a bit innocent about what most of your (self-proclaimed) fellow Christians actually believe.

    I really have been told by several members of the clergy that they do not believe most of what they say in the pulpit. That is really quite surprising, considering that most of my acquaintances are not, after all, clergymem, and, on the face of it, you'd think I'd be the last guy to whom they'd make such an admission.

    And, if you just want to claim that I have had remarkably good luck in running into faithless clergymen, check our Rev. Jack Good's classic The Dishonest Church. Rev. Good certainly has a much more representative sample of clergy than I do, but his conclusion is the same.

    Or, for a real shocker, try Frederic Martel's recent In the Closet of the Vatican: frankly, I found it so repellent I could not finish it, but it does, alas, conform with the evidence already in the public domain.

    And I doubt you are really surprised that there seems to be a comparable level of faithlessness among those in the pews.

    I don't claim that all self-proclaimed Christians have lost the faith, but merely that a huge number have and that that number is growing.

    The passages I quoted from Matthew are, after all, real problems for honest people, and that is just a tiny sample of what can be gleaned from the Bible, much less from post-apostolic theology.

    Of course, you can argue that all the faithless Christian clergy and laity I have known are just not really Christians. But, then we are treading into "no true Scotsman" territory.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Just don’t be surprised when you come across to people like an unschooled layman holding forth on string theory after reading a couple papers.
     
    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village: there's no there there. Arguably, a bright layperson who goes throught a couple presentations of string theory knows about as much as we physicists do -- i.e., close to nothing.

    Superstring theory is indeed an excellent example: clerisy in any field can indeed bamboozle the laymen... for a while. But, eventually truth will out. (For anyone interested in pursuing the mess euphemistically called superstring "theory," check out the archives for Peter Woit's Not Even Wrong blog.)

    A similar point holds for "global-warming" hysteria: the real science is unsettled. The claims that climate scientists can predict catastrophic future warming are a con game the clerisy is trying out on the laypeople (see climate scientist Judith Curry's blog for a measured view on all that).

    As Shaw pointed out, every profession is a conspiracy against laypeople (echoing, I think, Adam Smith).
  146. @PhysicistDave
    getaclue wrote to me:

    Yes Atheistic Scientific types have it all figured out, because if you don’t believe in Hell you won’t go there, see how that works?
     
    The issue -- really the only issue -- is whether the claims of religion are true.

    Do you believe that it is literally true, as Matthew claimed (Mt. 4: 8), that Satan took Jesus up onto a mountain from which they could see "all the kingdoms of the world" (hint: there is no such mountain)?

    Do you think Matthew was correct that Jesus came riding into Jerusalem somehow astride two asses at the same time (Mt. 21:1-7), even though the other Gospels say nothing of the sort (hint: this is simply due to an obvious misreading of Zech. 9:9)?

    Or how about Matthew's claim, made by no other Evangelist, that a bunch of dead people came back to life and wandered around Jerusalem after the Resurrection (Mt. 27: 52-53) (hint: wouldn't this have sort of made a splash even with non-Christians, such as Josephus' sources, not to mention other Christian sources?)?

    Or the Gadarene swine (Mt. 8:28-34)?

    And, I'm just getting started on Matthew alone!!

    Now, I know that lots of apologists have come up with ingenious ways of trying to twist Matthew's words so that somehow this is all "true." And, I also know that most Christians would simply say, "Hey, the Bible is not a police report: the Bible is "true" in a "higher sense" than mere factual accuracy: it conveys messages that resonate with me personally."

    And, that actually is okay: I find the Infancy Narrative in Luke to be enchanting, and I find the various Passion narratives to be moving. In some sense, perhaps, they are "true." But, they are not actually, factually true.

    The main difference between we "Atheistic Scientific types" whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.

    Yes, I know, you'd never invite us to a dinner party!
  147. @dfordoom

    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.
     
    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they're true or not is of zero importance.

    The trouble with militant atheists is that they can't look at religion in a pragmatic way. No-one is asking you to actually believe. All you're being asked to do is to consider whether it's a good thing that others believe.

    dfordoom wrote to me:

    [Dave] The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.

    [dfordoom] The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they’re true or not is of zero importance.

    .The problem, of course, is that you can’t argue for that consistently and publicly.

    I.e., if, say, all the members of the clergy were to shout this from the rooftops (and I have personally known a number of members of the clergy who privately admitted it was all lies — but of course they did not shout this from the rooftops!), then the folks in the pews would all know the truth.

    And, then the supposed social utility would vanish.

    A bit of a performative paradox, eh?

    After all, you yourself are only posting here under a pseudonymous screen-name, and on a forum that not too many of your acquaintances who really do believe are likely to see.

    But people are starting to figure out the truth, even the poor ordinary folks in the pews.

    “Noble lies” tend to fall apart… eventually.

  148. @Desiderius

    The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.
     
    The "know" in this sentence is the Gnostic know. Even aside from faith, as just proper skeptics as every intelligent man should be, we know no such thing.

    As practicing Christians by the rule of faith we know something entirely different. Since you're not, you don't, which is fine. Just don't be surprised when you come across to people like an unschooled layman holding forth on string theory after reading a couple papers.

    Desiderius wrote to me:

    [Dave] The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.

    [Desiderius]The “know” in this sentence is the Gnostic know. Even aside from faith, as just proper skeptics as every intelligent man should be, we know no such thing.

    Well… in all honesty, while you yourself may be a real true believer, I think you may be more than a bit innocent about what most of your (self-proclaimed) fellow Christians actually believe.

    I really have been told by several members of the clergy that they do not believe most of what they say in the pulpit. That is really quite surprising, considering that most of my acquaintances are not, after all, clergymem, and, on the face of it, you’d think I’d be the last guy to whom they’d make such an admission.

    And, if you just want to claim that I have had remarkably good luck in running into faithless clergymen, check our Rev. Jack Good’s classic The Dishonest Church. Rev. Good certainly has a much more representative sample of clergy than I do, but his conclusion is the same.

    Or, for a real shocker, try Frederic Martel’s recent In the Closet of the Vatican: frankly, I found it so repellent I could not finish it, but it does, alas, conform with the evidence already in the public domain.

    And I doubt you are really surprised that there seems to be a comparable level of faithlessness among those in the pews.

    I don’t claim that all self-proclaimed Christians have lost the faith, but merely that a huge number have and that that number is growing.

    The passages I quoted from Matthew are, after all, real problems for honest people, and that is just a tiny sample of what can be gleaned from the Bible, much less from post-apostolic theology.

    Of course, you can argue that all the faithless Christian clergy and laity I have known are just not really Christians. But, then we are treading into “no true Scotsman” territory.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Just don’t be surprised when you come across to people like an unschooled layman holding forth on string theory after reading a couple papers.

    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village: there’s no there there. Arguably, a bright layperson who goes throught a couple presentations of string theory knows about as much as we physicists do — i.e., close to nothing.

    Superstring theory is indeed an excellent example: clerisy in any field can indeed bamboozle the laymen… for a while. But, eventually truth will out. (For anyone interested in pursuing the mess euphemistically called superstring “theory,” check out the archives for Peter Woit’s Not Even Wrong blog.)

    A similar point holds for “global-warming” hysteria: the real science is unsettled. The claims that climate scientists can predict catastrophic future warming are a con game the clerisy is trying out on the laypeople (see climate scientist Judith Curry’s blog for a measured view on all that).

    As Shaw pointed out, every profession is a conspiracy against laypeople (echoing, I think, Adam Smith).

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village
     
    Of course I know that - it’s why I chose it as an example. So is biblical criticism by atheists.
    , @Desiderius

    I really have been told by several members of the clergy that they do not believe most of what they say in the pulpit.
     
    No shit, Sherlock. That’s why I pointed it out myself a few replies back and agreed with Art Deco’s characterization. The wonderful church in which I was raised (literally, after the sudden death of my 5-year-old brother) was wrecked over the course of thirty years by two such men.

    Same ruling class incompetence/corruption as any other institution and having exactly nothing to do with my point.


    And I doubt you are really surprised that there seems to be a comparable level of faithlessness among those in the pews.
     
    Nah brah, there you’ve lost the plot. Ignorance and maleducation yes, not faithlessness.
  149. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:


    [Dave] The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.
     
    [Desiderius]The “know” in this sentence is the Gnostic know. Even aside from faith, as just proper skeptics as every intelligent man should be, we know no such thing.
     
    Well... in all honesty, while you yourself may be a real true believer, I think you may be more than a bit innocent about what most of your (self-proclaimed) fellow Christians actually believe.

    I really have been told by several members of the clergy that they do not believe most of what they say in the pulpit. That is really quite surprising, considering that most of my acquaintances are not, after all, clergymem, and, on the face of it, you'd think I'd be the last guy to whom they'd make such an admission.

    And, if you just want to claim that I have had remarkably good luck in running into faithless clergymen, check our Rev. Jack Good's classic The Dishonest Church. Rev. Good certainly has a much more representative sample of clergy than I do, but his conclusion is the same.

    Or, for a real shocker, try Frederic Martel's recent In the Closet of the Vatican: frankly, I found it so repellent I could not finish it, but it does, alas, conform with the evidence already in the public domain.

    And I doubt you are really surprised that there seems to be a comparable level of faithlessness among those in the pews.

    I don't claim that all self-proclaimed Christians have lost the faith, but merely that a huge number have and that that number is growing.

    The passages I quoted from Matthew are, after all, real problems for honest people, and that is just a tiny sample of what can be gleaned from the Bible, much less from post-apostolic theology.

    Of course, you can argue that all the faithless Christian clergy and laity I have known are just not really Christians. But, then we are treading into "no true Scotsman" territory.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Just don’t be surprised when you come across to people like an unschooled layman holding forth on string theory after reading a couple papers.
     
    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village: there's no there there. Arguably, a bright layperson who goes throught a couple presentations of string theory knows about as much as we physicists do -- i.e., close to nothing.

    Superstring theory is indeed an excellent example: clerisy in any field can indeed bamboozle the laymen... for a while. But, eventually truth will out. (For anyone interested in pursuing the mess euphemistically called superstring "theory," check out the archives for Peter Woit's Not Even Wrong blog.)

    A similar point holds for "global-warming" hysteria: the real science is unsettled. The claims that climate scientists can predict catastrophic future warming are a con game the clerisy is trying out on the laypeople (see climate scientist Judith Curry's blog for a measured view on all that).

    As Shaw pointed out, every profession is a conspiracy against laypeople (echoing, I think, Adam Smith).

    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village

    Of course I know that – it’s why I chose it as an example. So is biblical criticism by atheists.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    That logic is shared by Saudi scholars who assert that non-Muslims can't ever intelligently criticize the Qu'ran.

    I suppose next we will have to be Greek pagans to truly understand the real story behind the Iliad.

    , @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:


    [Dave] I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village
     
    [Desiderius] Of course I know that – it’s why I chose it as an example. So is biblical criticism by atheists.
     
    I fear you missed my point: Physicists are faking it and theologians are faking it.

    Non-physicists are right to trash the claims physicists are making now. Non-Christians are right to trash the claims of Christianity.

    Same thing of course for politicians, climate scientists, indeed anyone making claims that they cannot back up by hard evidence. If you don't have hard evidence, you are probably faking it.

    As my mentor in physics, Richard Feynman said, “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." And, even more importantly, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool."

    I've never met a religious believer who tries to prove his religion is false and who assumes that his beliefs are probably wrong. All competent scientists do that -- unfortunately, in the last few decades the fraction of physicists who are competent has collapsed.

    Theologians -- no worse than they ever were, I suppose. Though my guess is that the level of dishonesty among the clergy is now worse than it used to be (though I may be naive).
  150. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:


    [Dave] The main difference between we “Atheistic Scientific types” whom you deride and most ordinary Christians is simply that we say out loud what most of you already know is true.
     
    [Desiderius]The “know” in this sentence is the Gnostic know. Even aside from faith, as just proper skeptics as every intelligent man should be, we know no such thing.
     
    Well... in all honesty, while you yourself may be a real true believer, I think you may be more than a bit innocent about what most of your (self-proclaimed) fellow Christians actually believe.

    I really have been told by several members of the clergy that they do not believe most of what they say in the pulpit. That is really quite surprising, considering that most of my acquaintances are not, after all, clergymem, and, on the face of it, you'd think I'd be the last guy to whom they'd make such an admission.

    And, if you just want to claim that I have had remarkably good luck in running into faithless clergymen, check our Rev. Jack Good's classic The Dishonest Church. Rev. Good certainly has a much more representative sample of clergy than I do, but his conclusion is the same.

    Or, for a real shocker, try Frederic Martel's recent In the Closet of the Vatican: frankly, I found it so repellent I could not finish it, but it does, alas, conform with the evidence already in the public domain.

    And I doubt you are really surprised that there seems to be a comparable level of faithlessness among those in the pews.

    I don't claim that all self-proclaimed Christians have lost the faith, but merely that a huge number have and that that number is growing.

    The passages I quoted from Matthew are, after all, real problems for honest people, and that is just a tiny sample of what can be gleaned from the Bible, much less from post-apostolic theology.

    Of course, you can argue that all the faithless Christian clergy and laity I have known are just not really Christians. But, then we are treading into "no true Scotsman" territory.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Just don’t be surprised when you come across to people like an unschooled layman holding forth on string theory after reading a couple papers.
     
    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village: there's no there there. Arguably, a bright layperson who goes throught a couple presentations of string theory knows about as much as we physicists do -- i.e., close to nothing.

    Superstring theory is indeed an excellent example: clerisy in any field can indeed bamboozle the laymen... for a while. But, eventually truth will out. (For anyone interested in pursuing the mess euphemistically called superstring "theory," check out the archives for Peter Woit's Not Even Wrong blog.)

    A similar point holds for "global-warming" hysteria: the real science is unsettled. The claims that climate scientists can predict catastrophic future warming are a con game the clerisy is trying out on the laypeople (see climate scientist Judith Curry's blog for a measured view on all that).

    As Shaw pointed out, every profession is a conspiracy against laypeople (echoing, I think, Adam Smith).

    I really have been told by several members of the clergy that they do not believe most of what they say in the pulpit.

    No shit, Sherlock. That’s why I pointed it out myself a few replies back and agreed with Art Deco’s characterization. The wonderful church in which I was raised (literally, after the sudden death of my 5-year-old brother) was wrecked over the course of thirty years by two such men.

    Same ruling class incompetence/corruption as any other institution and having exactly nothing to do with my point.

    And I doubt you are really surprised that there seems to be a comparable level of faithlessness among those in the pews.

    Nah brah, there you’ve lost the plot. Ignorance and maleducation yes, not faithlessness.

  151. I don’t claim that all self-proclaimed Christians have lost the faith, but merely that a huge number have and that that number is growing.

    https://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/new-harvard-research-says-u-s-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/religious-upbringing-adult-health/

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    The Federalist article is fraudulent. His only real point is that the mainline denominations are in decline and the fudamentalists are growing. True, although hardly new: this has been going on since I was a teenager half a century ago. That only shows a strengthening of Christianity if you assume the mainline churches were not really Christians.

    "No true Scotsman..."

    Also, it is known among sociologists that you have to be very careful with claims of church attendance: people think they should attend church and so they "remember" attending three times last month, though they did not. The best data sources for this are things such as the EPA transportation data where people do not realize they are inadvertently admitting not having bothered to go to church.

    The fraction of "nones" in the population does seem clearly to have risen in the last few decades, mainly at the expense of self-proclaimed Christians.

    My own personal anecdotal experience certainly confirms that, as does my daughter's experience with other students in college.

    Prediction is indeed difficult, especially of the future! Maybe Christianity will have a rebound in the developed world. But both the last few decades in the USA and the secular trend over the last five centuries in the West in general do not suggest that.
  152. @dfordoom

    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.
     
    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they're true or not is of zero importance.

    The trouble with militant atheists is that they can't look at religion in a pragmatic way. No-one is asking you to actually believe. All you're being asked to do is to consider whether it's a good thing that others believe.

    >The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they’re true or not is of zero importance.

    Hello, High Inquisitor!

    The noble lie theory at its heart betrays an lack of faith in the potential for humanity. That this lack of esteem might be well justified doesn’t change the essentially distasteful nature of it all.

    Dostoevsky, as a non-Euclidean man capable of handling the paradox, might have preferred to remain with Christ over the truth. I have not found the ability to do that.

    Do I think religion should be openly attacked? Absolutely not. Apart from basic decency and moral considerations, Dawkins and Company (as they themselves admitted in retrospect!) really underestimated how much uglier the replacements for Christianity could be in the wake of the vacuum made by a too-sudden rupture. This is a big shift for Western culture, and I don’t think we are at all handling it correctly in failing to find a true new purpose to our lives, in the absence of anything divinely guided. People don’t need or want endless comfort all day long.

    But that doesn’t change the essential fact that so many people here miss. Christianity might not be going extinct worldwide any time soon, but Christianity’s future will mostly lie outside the Western world: Africa, Central America. There are reasons for that. Europe is no longer the faith, the faith no longer Europe. That ideal had a good 1000+ year run. It’s gone now. This is going to deeply impact right-wing politics in the future.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    America is not Europe, and Europe is in flux in more ways than one. The future is not ours to know.

    I suppose next we will have to be Greek pagans to truly understand the real story behind the Iliad.
     
    Were I to claim a fuller understanding than they then yes, I would be a fool indeed.
  153. @Desiderius

    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village
     
    Of course I know that - it’s why I chose it as an example. So is biblical criticism by atheists.

    That logic is shared by Saudi scholars who assert that non-Muslims can’t ever intelligently criticize the Qu’ran.

    I suppose next we will have to be Greek pagans to truly understand the real story behind the Iliad.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    I have it on good authority that those same scholars also breathe air. Will you then hold your breath?

    An atheist is as likely to be a reliable judge of scripture as Obama appointees are of Trump.

    A debate with a properly skeptical agnostic might be more fruitful, as we might agree that claiming knowledge of the behavior of a nonspecified herd of swine who lived two millenia in the past is silliness on stilts.

    But ultimately such a debate misses out on the main benefits of the exercise of interpreting scripture in the first place. Interesting that you mention the Iliad as the evidence suggests that it was originally performed in song. Missing that dimension of Homer is analogous to the dimensions of scripture missed by nonbelievers.

    Interpreting scripture is an integral part of a life of spiritual discipline, almost exclusively conducted in the company of fellow believers whom one has known and loved in many cases since birth.
  154. @nebulafox
    That logic is shared by Saudi scholars who assert that non-Muslims can't ever intelligently criticize the Qu'ran.

    I suppose next we will have to be Greek pagans to truly understand the real story behind the Iliad.

    I have it on good authority that those same scholars also breathe air. Will you then hold your breath?

    An atheist is as likely to be a reliable judge of scripture as Obama appointees are of Trump.

    A debate with a properly skeptical agnostic might be more fruitful, as we might agree that claiming knowledge of the behavior of a nonspecified herd of swine who lived two millenia in the past is silliness on stilts.

    But ultimately such a debate misses out on the main benefits of the exercise of interpreting scripture in the first place. Interesting that you mention the Iliad as the evidence suggests that it was originally performed in song. Missing that dimension of Homer is analogous to the dimensions of scripture missed by nonbelievers.

    Interpreting scripture is an integral part of a life of spiritual discipline, almost exclusively conducted in the company of fellow believers whom one has known and loved in many cases since birth.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote:

    An atheist is as likely to be a reliable judge of scripture as Obama appointees are of Trump.

    A debate with a properly skeptical agnostic might be more fruitful...
     
    I think most people who call themselves "atheists" are people you would label "agnostics."

    As you know, I am not dogmatically certain that no being exists that might reasonably be called "God." I simply think it is unlikely.

    I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that there is no mountain from which you can see all the kingdoms of the world, that everything in the universe was not created in seven days, etc.

    Desidrius also wrote:

    Interpreting scripture is an integral part of a life of spiritual discipline, almost exclusively conducted in the company of fellow believers whom one has known and loved in many cases since birth.
     
    Well... it depends on your purpose. If your goal is to know whether or not it is true, anyone who has observed human nature knows that sticking to a group that share your beliefs is one of the worst ways to figure out if those beliefs are true.

    This is indeed what has happened in string theory, global-warming hysteria, etc., as you and I agree.

    “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.”
  155. @nebulafox
    >The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they’re true or not is of zero importance.

    Hello, High Inquisitor!

    The noble lie theory at its heart betrays an lack of faith in the potential for humanity. That this lack of esteem might be well justified doesn't change the essentially distasteful nature of it all.

    Dostoevsky, as a non-Euclidean man capable of handling the paradox, might have preferred to remain with Christ over the truth. I have not found the ability to do that.

    Do I think religion should be openly attacked? Absolutely not. Apart from basic decency and moral considerations, Dawkins and Company (as they themselves admitted in retrospect!) really underestimated how much uglier the replacements for Christianity could be in the wake of the vacuum made by a too-sudden rupture. This is a big shift for Western culture, and I don't think we are at all handling it correctly in failing to find a true new purpose to our lives, in the absence of anything divinely guided. People don't need or want endless comfort all day long.

    But that doesn't change the essential fact that so many people here miss. Christianity might not be going extinct worldwide any time soon, but Christianity's future will mostly lie outside the Western world: Africa, Central America. There are reasons for that. Europe is no longer the faith, the faith no longer Europe. That ideal had a good 1000+ year run. It's gone now. This is going to deeply impact right-wing politics in the future.

    America is not Europe, and Europe is in flux in more ways than one. The future is not ours to know.

    I suppose next we will have to be Greek pagans to truly understand the real story behind the Iliad.

    Were I to claim a fuller understanding than they then yes, I would be a fool indeed.

  156. @PhysicistDave
    SunBakedSuburb asked me:


    [Dave]“As a militant scientific atheist …”
     
    [SBS]: Why so militant? Have you traded one religion for another?
     
    I was being a bit facetious: I doubt God exists, but I do not hate people who disagree. I am passionate about science, and I can get militant with people who aggressively deny well-established science (e.g., Young Earth Creationists).

    On the other hand, I generally find that most people of all sorts of religions are actually decent human beings (yes, even fundamentalists -- most American fundamentalists lean in a Jeffersonian direction, which is a very good thing, even if slightly ironic).

    Thoughtful response. Thanks.

  157. @Desiderius

    I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village
     
    Of course I know that - it’s why I chose it as an example. So is biblical criticism by atheists.

    Desiderius wrote to me:

    [Dave] I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village

    [Desiderius] Of course I know that – it’s why I chose it as an example. So is biblical criticism by atheists.

    I fear you missed my point: Physicists are faking it and theologians are faking it.

    Non-physicists are right to trash the claims physicists are making now. Non-Christians are right to trash the claims of Christianity.

    Same thing of course for politicians, climate scientists, indeed anyone making claims that they cannot back up by hard evidence. If you don’t have hard evidence, you are probably faking it.

    As my mentor in physics, Richard Feynman said, “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” And, even more importantly, “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.”

    I’ve never met a religious believer who tries to prove his religion is false and who assumes that his beliefs are probably wrong. All competent scientists do that — unfortunately, in the last few decades the fraction of physicists who are competent has collapsed.

    Theologians — no worse than they ever were, I suppose. Though my guess is that the level of dishonesty among the clergy is now worse than it used to be (though I may be naive).

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    It is far worse, though it has been heading downhill along with the rest of the highly educated class as the leading institutions of higher education themselves have done and are doing.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/seminary-confidential-critical-theory/

    As for the rest, the practice (including the interpretation of scripture) of Christianity is an Art, not a Science, so you're comparing apples to oranges. As for the game you'd like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I've known on two hands, so you're wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you've setting out to slay. Different people make their peace in different ways, but they do so faithfully - if they don't they aren't Christians at all. I know thousands of such people and they're not going anywhere.

    I will say this: the character of those inerrantists was unparalleled. I believe you've noticed some similar paradoxes. Check out this man's eyes:

    http://kickasstorrents.ee/the-theology-of-b-b-warfield-foreword-by-sinclair-b-ferguson-a-systematic-summary-fred-g-zaspel-kindle-azw3-bftm-t10475912.html

    and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman's if I'm not mistaken.
  158. @Desiderius

    I don’t claim that all self-proclaimed Christians have lost the faith, but merely that a huge number have and that that number is growing.
     
    https://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/new-harvard-research-says-u-s-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/religious-upbringing-adult-health/

    https://youtu.be/4Q3uPysQaZY

    The Federalist article is fraudulent. His only real point is that the mainline denominations are in decline and the fudamentalists are growing. True, although hardly new: this has been going on since I was a teenager half a century ago. That only shows a strengthening of Christianity if you assume the mainline churches were not really Christians.

    “No true Scotsman…”

    Also, it is known among sociologists that you have to be very careful with claims of church attendance: people think they should attend church and so they “remember” attending three times last month, though they did not. The best data sources for this are things such as the EPA transportation data where people do not realize they are inadvertently admitting not having bothered to go to church.

    The fraction of “nones” in the population does seem clearly to have risen in the last few decades, mainly at the expense of self-proclaimed Christians.

    My own personal anecdotal experience certainly confirms that, as does my daughter’s experience with other students in college.

    Prediction is indeed difficult, especially of the future! Maybe Christianity will have a rebound in the developed world. But both the last few decades in the USA and the secular trend over the last five centuries in the West in general do not suggest that.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    It's not fundamentalists that are growing, it is people with a similar profile of Trump voters - the successful in communities where others are suffering, i.e. people who have to deal first-hand with the consequences of the snobbery/incompetence/corruption of the ruling class. Many of us aren't even in the pews yet because so many pulpits are full of preachers spouting the same nonsense.

    Jesus never went to church. Paul didn't attend seminary. The religion can be, and is, practiced both outside and inside those rotting institutions, as is Physics I imagine even in departments gone to seed. It all started with thirteen, and they got cancelled on all the big platforms by one of their own. If they made it so can we.
  159. @Desiderius
    I have it on good authority that those same scholars also breathe air. Will you then hold your breath?

    An atheist is as likely to be a reliable judge of scripture as Obama appointees are of Trump.

    A debate with a properly skeptical agnostic might be more fruitful, as we might agree that claiming knowledge of the behavior of a nonspecified herd of swine who lived two millenia in the past is silliness on stilts.

    But ultimately such a debate misses out on the main benefits of the exercise of interpreting scripture in the first place. Interesting that you mention the Iliad as the evidence suggests that it was originally performed in song. Missing that dimension of Homer is analogous to the dimensions of scripture missed by nonbelievers.

    Interpreting scripture is an integral part of a life of spiritual discipline, almost exclusively conducted in the company of fellow believers whom one has known and loved in many cases since birth.

    Desiderius wrote:

    An atheist is as likely to be a reliable judge of scripture as Obama appointees are of Trump.

    A debate with a properly skeptical agnostic might be more fruitful…

    I think most people who call themselves “atheists” are people you would label “agnostics.”

    As you know, I am not dogmatically certain that no being exists that might reasonably be called “God.” I simply think it is unlikely.

    I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that there is no mountain from which you can see all the kingdoms of the world, that everything in the universe was not created in seven days, etc.

    Desidrius also wrote:

    Interpreting scripture is an integral part of a life of spiritual discipline, almost exclusively conducted in the company of fellow believers whom one has known and loved in many cases since birth.

    Well… it depends on your purpose. If your goal is to know whether or not it is true, anyone who has observed human nature knows that sticking to a group that share your beliefs is one of the worst ways to figure out if those beliefs are true.

    This is indeed what has happened in string theory, global-warming hysteria, etc., as you and I agree.

    “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    No, my first principle was to notice who was the opposite of a fool and study how they got that way. The answer I found was a lifetime of Christian spiritual discipline faithfully exercised. That exercise is an art, not a science - Christ is the Truth. Scripture is how I learn about Him and His life and teachings so I can better discern the will of the Heavenly Father, following the example of His faithful Son. The Holy Ghost both inspired the writing of scripture in the first place and illuminates its meaning as I study it each time anew.

    As for your million-dollar question/assertion, it is my duty to attempt first to make literal sense of the text. Otherwise you're wasting your time on the whole exercise. Since we're all created with God's imagination (a creative translation of the Hebrew I once found justifiable) that's usually not a problem (the Hebrew doesn't say the seven days were consecutive, for instance), but where it is I then look for the figurative, of which of course there are several layers throughout scripture, as is the case with all great literature.

    Without grounding oneself in the commitment to the literal meaning one will soon find oneself following one's own will not God's.
  160. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:


    [Dave] I would have thought that you know that superstring theory is just a Potemkin village
     
    [Desiderius] Of course I know that – it’s why I chose it as an example. So is biblical criticism by atheists.
     
    I fear you missed my point: Physicists are faking it and theologians are faking it.

    Non-physicists are right to trash the claims physicists are making now. Non-Christians are right to trash the claims of Christianity.

    Same thing of course for politicians, climate scientists, indeed anyone making claims that they cannot back up by hard evidence. If you don't have hard evidence, you are probably faking it.

    As my mentor in physics, Richard Feynman said, “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." And, even more importantly, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool."

    I've never met a religious believer who tries to prove his religion is false and who assumes that his beliefs are probably wrong. All competent scientists do that -- unfortunately, in the last few decades the fraction of physicists who are competent has collapsed.

    Theologians -- no worse than they ever were, I suppose. Though my guess is that the level of dishonesty among the clergy is now worse than it used to be (though I may be naive).

    It is far worse, though it has been heading downhill along with the rest of the highly educated class as the leading institutions of higher education themselves have done and are doing.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/seminary-confidential-critical-theory/

    As for the rest, the practice (including the interpretation of scripture) of Christianity is an Art, not a Science, so you’re comparing apples to oranges. As for the game you’d like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I’ve known on two hands, so you’re wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you’ve setting out to slay. Different people make their peace in different ways, but they do so faithfully – if they don’t they aren’t Christians at all. I know thousands of such people and they’re not going anywhere.

    I will say this: the character of those inerrantists was unparalleled. I believe you’ve noticed some similar paradoxes. Check out this man’s eyes:

    http://kickasstorrents.ee/the-theology-of-b-b-warfield-foreword-by-sinclair-b-ferguson-a-systematic-summary-fred-g-zaspel-kindle-azw3-bftm-t10475912.html

    and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman’s if I’m not mistaken.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    As for the game you’d like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I’ve known on two hands, so you’re wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you’ve setting out to slay.
     
    Well... there are quite a few people who claim to be inerrantists -- I've known a huge number myself -- but, of course, very few really are. What they basically have to do is "reinterpret" the text when it is obvious nonsense.

    The problem, though, is that the only source for a lot of Christian beliefs -- the Virgin Birth, the empty tomb, etc. -- is one or more of the four Gospels, and the Evangelists were obviously pretty sloppy (or perhaps the better word is "credulous") guys. Once it is admitted how flaky the Gospels are, you guys are left with "Well I believe because (God / my church / the hierarchy / my fellow believers / the Holy Spirit) tell me to." Which is about as credible as Wiccans, Shaivists, or neo-pagans.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Check out this man’s eyes... and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman’s if I’m not mistaken.
     
    One thing I am pretty sure of, from decades of observation, is that neither I nor you nor any human being can tell whether what some guy is preaching is true by looking at a still picture of that guy's eyes.

    Including Feynman.

    Note: I did not accept what Feynman said on faith: I checked it out, and some of it did not check out. Enough of it did check out (mathematical calculations or empirical data) that I took seriously what he said about physics -- but I still checked it out.

    Incidentally, I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise (i.e., physical science). Years later, I did find out, a bit to my surprise, that Feynman had reached political views not that far from yours or mine, which I did find interesting.
  161. @PhysicistDave
    The Federalist article is fraudulent. His only real point is that the mainline denominations are in decline and the fudamentalists are growing. True, although hardly new: this has been going on since I was a teenager half a century ago. That only shows a strengthening of Christianity if you assume the mainline churches were not really Christians.

    "No true Scotsman..."

    Also, it is known among sociologists that you have to be very careful with claims of church attendance: people think they should attend church and so they "remember" attending three times last month, though they did not. The best data sources for this are things such as the EPA transportation data where people do not realize they are inadvertently admitting not having bothered to go to church.

    The fraction of "nones" in the population does seem clearly to have risen in the last few decades, mainly at the expense of self-proclaimed Christians.

    My own personal anecdotal experience certainly confirms that, as does my daughter's experience with other students in college.

    Prediction is indeed difficult, especially of the future! Maybe Christianity will have a rebound in the developed world. But both the last few decades in the USA and the secular trend over the last five centuries in the West in general do not suggest that.

    It’s not fundamentalists that are growing, it is people with a similar profile of Trump voters – the successful in communities where others are suffering, i.e. people who have to deal first-hand with the consequences of the snobbery/incompetence/corruption of the ruling class. Many of us aren’t even in the pews yet because so many pulpits are full of preachers spouting the same nonsense.

    Jesus never went to church. Paul didn’t attend seminary. The religion can be, and is, practiced both outside and inside those rotting institutions, as is Physics I imagine even in departments gone to seed. It all started with thirteen, and they got cancelled on all the big platforms by one of their own. If they made it so can we.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    It’s not fundamentalists that are growing, it is people with a similar profile of Trump voters – the successful in communities where others are suffering, i.e. people who have to deal first-hand with the consequences of the snobbery/incompetence/corruption of the ruling class.
     
    There may be some truth in that: of course, most Americans are suffering from the incompetence, avarice, and mendacity of the ruling class -- including quite a few people who mistakenly think they are themselves part of the ruling class.

    Is becoming a Christian a cure? Well... I would think ending the power of the ruling elite might be more efficacious.
  162. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @dfordoom

    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are true.
     
    The issue — really the only issue — is whether the claims of religion are socially useful. Whether they're true or not is of zero importance.

    The trouble with militant atheists is that they can't look at religion in a pragmatic way. No-one is asking you to actually believe. All you're being asked to do is to consider whether it's a good thing that others believe.

    Who gets to define ‘social utility’?

    We on this forum complain about leftist attempts to obscure or deny racial differences, but these people are lying from the best of motives. They truly believe that a multiracial society like the U.S. will violently tear itself apart if people don’t believe in racial equality.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
  163. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote:

    An atheist is as likely to be a reliable judge of scripture as Obama appointees are of Trump.

    A debate with a properly skeptical agnostic might be more fruitful...
     
    I think most people who call themselves "atheists" are people you would label "agnostics."

    As you know, I am not dogmatically certain that no being exists that might reasonably be called "God." I simply think it is unlikely.

    I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that there is no mountain from which you can see all the kingdoms of the world, that everything in the universe was not created in seven days, etc.

    Desidrius also wrote:

    Interpreting scripture is an integral part of a life of spiritual discipline, almost exclusively conducted in the company of fellow believers whom one has known and loved in many cases since birth.
     
    Well... it depends on your purpose. If your goal is to know whether or not it is true, anyone who has observed human nature knows that sticking to a group that share your beliefs is one of the worst ways to figure out if those beliefs are true.

    This is indeed what has happened in string theory, global-warming hysteria, etc., as you and I agree.

    “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.”

    No, my first principle was to notice who was the opposite of a fool and study how they got that way. The answer I found was a lifetime of Christian spiritual discipline faithfully exercised. That exercise is an art, not a science – Christ is the Truth. Scripture is how I learn about Him and His life and teachings so I can better discern the will of the Heavenly Father, following the example of His faithful Son. The Holy Ghost both inspired the writing of scripture in the first place and illuminates its meaning as I study it each time anew.

    As for your million-dollar question/assertion, it is my duty to attempt first to make literal sense of the text. Otherwise you’re wasting your time on the whole exercise. Since we’re all created with God’s imagination (a creative translation of the Hebrew I once found justifiable) that’s usually not a problem (the Hebrew doesn’t say the seven days were consecutive, for instance), but where it is I then look for the figurative, of which of course there are several layers throughout scripture, as is the case with all great literature.

    Without grounding oneself in the commitment to the literal meaning one will soon find oneself following one’s own will not God’s.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    No, my first principle was to notice who was the opposite of a fool and study how they got that way. The answer I found was a lifetime of Christian spiritual discipline faithfully exercised.
     
    Well... the problem is that an awful lot of people who have followed the same strategy have ended up as jihadis, vegetarians, social-justice warriors, neoconservatives, adherents of "Christian Science," Mormons, Scientologists, and a host of other True Believers.

    It does seem, on the face of it, a strategy that generally fails.

    The scientific method is certainly not fool-proof, but, over the long haul, it seems to have a rather better batting average. When, of course, scientists do actually follow the scientific method (i.e., not global-warming hysteria, superstring "theory," the "social and behavioral sciences," nutrition "science," etc.).
  164. @Desiderius
    It is far worse, though it has been heading downhill along with the rest of the highly educated class as the leading institutions of higher education themselves have done and are doing.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/seminary-confidential-critical-theory/

    As for the rest, the practice (including the interpretation of scripture) of Christianity is an Art, not a Science, so you're comparing apples to oranges. As for the game you'd like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I've known on two hands, so you're wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you've setting out to slay. Different people make their peace in different ways, but they do so faithfully - if they don't they aren't Christians at all. I know thousands of such people and they're not going anywhere.

    I will say this: the character of those inerrantists was unparalleled. I believe you've noticed some similar paradoxes. Check out this man's eyes:

    http://kickasstorrents.ee/the-theology-of-b-b-warfield-foreword-by-sinclair-b-ferguson-a-systematic-summary-fred-g-zaspel-kindle-azw3-bftm-t10475912.html

    and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman's if I'm not mistaken.

    Desiderius wrote to me:

    As for the game you’d like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I’ve known on two hands, so you’re wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you’ve setting out to slay.

    Well… there are quite a few people who claim to be inerrantists — I’ve known a huge number myself — but, of course, very few really are. What they basically have to do is “reinterpret” the text when it is obvious nonsense.

    The problem, though, is that the only source for a lot of Christian beliefs — the Virgin Birth, the empty tomb, etc. — is one or more of the four Gospels, and the Evangelists were obviously pretty sloppy (or perhaps the better word is “credulous”) guys. Once it is admitted how flaky the Gospels are, you guys are left with “Well I believe because (God / my church / the hierarchy / my fellow believers / the Holy Spirit) tell me to.” Which is about as credible as Wiccans, Shaivists, or neo-pagans.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Check out this man’s eyes… and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman’s if I’m not mistaken.

    One thing I am pretty sure of, from decades of observation, is that neither I nor you nor any human being can tell whether what some guy is preaching is true by looking at a still picture of that guy’s eyes.

    Including Feynman.

    Note: I did not accept what Feynman said on faith: I checked it out, and some of it did not check out. Enough of it did check out (mathematical calculations or empirical data) that I took seriously what he said about physics — but I still checked it out.

    Incidentally, I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise (i.e., physical science). Years later, I did find out, a bit to my surprise, that Feynman had reached political views not that far from yours or mine, which I did find interesting.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    One thing I am pretty sure of, from decades of observation, is that neither I nor you nor any human being can tell whether what some guy is preaching is true by looking at a still picture of that guy’s eyes.
     
    Citation needed.

    I've of course been fooled a time or two, but it's more apparent than you think. Facial re-cognition is a tremendously useful skill that the evolutionary process chose for a reason, or several I'd imagine.

    The book of Acts speaks of early Christians recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit in people immediately by sight. Even skepticism in immoderation is unwarranted and imprudent.
    , @Desiderius

    I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise
     
    Such as biblical criticism, for instance?
    , @Desiderius

    the only source for a lot of Christian beliefs — the Virgin Birth, the empty tomb, etc. — is one or more of the four Gospels
     
    As if the faith - and lives lived in and for that faith - of nearly a hundred generations are nothing! Think of the fruit (the vast majority of it as saecular as your research) of those lives well lived.

    You're little better here than the thugs who burned the Library of Alexandria.
  165. @Desiderius
    It's not fundamentalists that are growing, it is people with a similar profile of Trump voters - the successful in communities where others are suffering, i.e. people who have to deal first-hand with the consequences of the snobbery/incompetence/corruption of the ruling class. Many of us aren't even in the pews yet because so many pulpits are full of preachers spouting the same nonsense.

    Jesus never went to church. Paul didn't attend seminary. The religion can be, and is, practiced both outside and inside those rotting institutions, as is Physics I imagine even in departments gone to seed. It all started with thirteen, and they got cancelled on all the big platforms by one of their own. If they made it so can we.

    Desiderius wrote to me:

    It’s not fundamentalists that are growing, it is people with a similar profile of Trump voters – the successful in communities where others are suffering, i.e. people who have to deal first-hand with the consequences of the snobbery/incompetence/corruption of the ruling class.

    There may be some truth in that: of course, most Americans are suffering from the incompetence, avarice, and mendacity of the ruling class — including quite a few people who mistakenly think they are themselves part of the ruling class.

    Is becoming a Christian a cure? Well… I would think ending the power of the ruling elite might be more efficacious.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Is becoming a Christian a cure? Well… I would think ending the power of the ruling elite might be more efficacious.
     
    The last time we were here Christians were leading that exact charge.

    Faith engenders courage.
  166. @Desiderius
    No, my first principle was to notice who was the opposite of a fool and study how they got that way. The answer I found was a lifetime of Christian spiritual discipline faithfully exercised. That exercise is an art, not a science - Christ is the Truth. Scripture is how I learn about Him and His life and teachings so I can better discern the will of the Heavenly Father, following the example of His faithful Son. The Holy Ghost both inspired the writing of scripture in the first place and illuminates its meaning as I study it each time anew.

    As for your million-dollar question/assertion, it is my duty to attempt first to make literal sense of the text. Otherwise you're wasting your time on the whole exercise. Since we're all created with God's imagination (a creative translation of the Hebrew I once found justifiable) that's usually not a problem (the Hebrew doesn't say the seven days were consecutive, for instance), but where it is I then look for the figurative, of which of course there are several layers throughout scripture, as is the case with all great literature.

    Without grounding oneself in the commitment to the literal meaning one will soon find oneself following one's own will not God's.

    Desiderius wrote to me:

    No, my first principle was to notice who was the opposite of a fool and study how they got that way. The answer I found was a lifetime of Christian spiritual discipline faithfully exercised.

    Well… the problem is that an awful lot of people who have followed the same strategy have ended up as jihadis, vegetarians, social-justice warriors, neoconservatives, adherents of “Christian Science,” Mormons, Scientologists, and a host of other True Believers.

    It does seem, on the face of it, a strategy that generally fails.

    The scientific method is certainly not fool-proof, but, over the long haul, it seems to have a rather better batting average. When, of course, scientists do actually follow the scientific method (i.e., not global-warming hysteria, superstring “theory,” the “social and behavioral sciences,” nutrition “science,” etc.).

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Well… the problem is that an awful lot of people who have followed the same strategy have ended up as jihadis, vegetarians, social-justice warriors, neoconservatives, adherents of “Christian Science,” Mormons, Scientologists, and a host of other True Believers.
     
    If you pay attention to each of the words I carefully chose to describe the practices of those people of exceptional character I observed, you'll find that no one on your list fits the description.

    It does seem, on the face of it, a strategy that generally fails.
     
    Abstract speculation - the tragic flaw of the ruling class.

    My observations were of the specific and concrete.

    As for the scientific method, I'm of course a big fan. I wasn't discussing science. Do you employ the scientific method to brush your teeth? Take a shit?

  167. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    It’s not fundamentalists that are growing, it is people with a similar profile of Trump voters – the successful in communities where others are suffering, i.e. people who have to deal first-hand with the consequences of the snobbery/incompetence/corruption of the ruling class.
     
    There may be some truth in that: of course, most Americans are suffering from the incompetence, avarice, and mendacity of the ruling class -- including quite a few people who mistakenly think they are themselves part of the ruling class.

    Is becoming a Christian a cure? Well... I would think ending the power of the ruling elite might be more efficacious.

    Is becoming a Christian a cure? Well… I would think ending the power of the ruling elite might be more efficacious.

    The last time we were here Christians were leading that exact charge.

    Faith engenders courage.

  168. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    No, my first principle was to notice who was the opposite of a fool and study how they got that way. The answer I found was a lifetime of Christian spiritual discipline faithfully exercised.
     
    Well... the problem is that an awful lot of people who have followed the same strategy have ended up as jihadis, vegetarians, social-justice warriors, neoconservatives, adherents of "Christian Science," Mormons, Scientologists, and a host of other True Believers.

    It does seem, on the face of it, a strategy that generally fails.

    The scientific method is certainly not fool-proof, but, over the long haul, it seems to have a rather better batting average. When, of course, scientists do actually follow the scientific method (i.e., not global-warming hysteria, superstring "theory," the "social and behavioral sciences," nutrition "science," etc.).

    Well… the problem is that an awful lot of people who have followed the same strategy have ended up as jihadis, vegetarians, social-justice warriors, neoconservatives, adherents of “Christian Science,” Mormons, Scientologists, and a host of other True Believers.

    If you pay attention to each of the words I carefully chose to describe the practices of those people of exceptional character I observed, you’ll find that no one on your list fits the description.

    It does seem, on the face of it, a strategy that generally fails.

    Abstract speculation – the tragic flaw of the ruling class.

    My observations were of the specific and concrete.

    As for the scientific method, I’m of course a big fan. I wasn’t discussing science. Do you employ the scientific method to brush your teeth? Take a shit?

  169. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    As for the game you’d like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I’ve known on two hands, so you’re wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you’ve setting out to slay.
     
    Well... there are quite a few people who claim to be inerrantists -- I've known a huge number myself -- but, of course, very few really are. What they basically have to do is "reinterpret" the text when it is obvious nonsense.

    The problem, though, is that the only source for a lot of Christian beliefs -- the Virgin Birth, the empty tomb, etc. -- is one or more of the four Gospels, and the Evangelists were obviously pretty sloppy (or perhaps the better word is "credulous") guys. Once it is admitted how flaky the Gospels are, you guys are left with "Well I believe because (God / my church / the hierarchy / my fellow believers / the Holy Spirit) tell me to." Which is about as credible as Wiccans, Shaivists, or neo-pagans.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Check out this man’s eyes... and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman’s if I’m not mistaken.
     
    One thing I am pretty sure of, from decades of observation, is that neither I nor you nor any human being can tell whether what some guy is preaching is true by looking at a still picture of that guy's eyes.

    Including Feynman.

    Note: I did not accept what Feynman said on faith: I checked it out, and some of it did not check out. Enough of it did check out (mathematical calculations or empirical data) that I took seriously what he said about physics -- but I still checked it out.

    Incidentally, I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise (i.e., physical science). Years later, I did find out, a bit to my surprise, that Feynman had reached political views not that far from yours or mine, which I did find interesting.

    One thing I am pretty sure of, from decades of observation, is that neither I nor you nor any human being can tell whether what some guy is preaching is true by looking at a still picture of that guy’s eyes.

    Citation needed.

    I’ve of course been fooled a time or two, but it’s more apparent than you think. Facial re-cognition is a tremendously useful skill that the evolutionary process chose for a reason, or several I’d imagine.

    The book of Acts speaks of early Christians recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit in people immediately by sight. Even skepticism in immoderation is unwarranted and imprudent.

  170. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    As for the game you’d like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I’ve known on two hands, so you’re wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you’ve setting out to slay.
     
    Well... there are quite a few people who claim to be inerrantists -- I've known a huge number myself -- but, of course, very few really are. What they basically have to do is "reinterpret" the text when it is obvious nonsense.

    The problem, though, is that the only source for a lot of Christian beliefs -- the Virgin Birth, the empty tomb, etc. -- is one or more of the four Gospels, and the Evangelists were obviously pretty sloppy (or perhaps the better word is "credulous") guys. Once it is admitted how flaky the Gospels are, you guys are left with "Well I believe because (God / my church / the hierarchy / my fellow believers / the Holy Spirit) tell me to." Which is about as credible as Wiccans, Shaivists, or neo-pagans.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Check out this man’s eyes... and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman’s if I’m not mistaken.
     
    One thing I am pretty sure of, from decades of observation, is that neither I nor you nor any human being can tell whether what some guy is preaching is true by looking at a still picture of that guy's eyes.

    Including Feynman.

    Note: I did not accept what Feynman said on faith: I checked it out, and some of it did not check out. Enough of it did check out (mathematical calculations or empirical data) that I took seriously what he said about physics -- but I still checked it out.

    Incidentally, I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise (i.e., physical science). Years later, I did find out, a bit to my surprise, that Feynman had reached political views not that far from yours or mine, which I did find interesting.

    I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise

    Such as biblical criticism, for instance?

  171. @PhysicistDave
    Desiderius wrote to me:

    As for the game you’d like me to play, I can count the number of biblical inerrantists I’ve known on two hands, so you’re wildly overestimating the influence of the dragons you’ve setting out to slay.
     
    Well... there are quite a few people who claim to be inerrantists -- I've known a huge number myself -- but, of course, very few really are. What they basically have to do is "reinterpret" the text when it is obvious nonsense.

    The problem, though, is that the only source for a lot of Christian beliefs -- the Virgin Birth, the empty tomb, etc. -- is one or more of the four Gospels, and the Evangelists were obviously pretty sloppy (or perhaps the better word is "credulous") guys. Once it is admitted how flaky the Gospels are, you guys are left with "Well I believe because (God / my church / the hierarchy / my fellow believers / the Holy Spirit) tell me to." Which is about as credible as Wiccans, Shaivists, or neo-pagans.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    Check out this man’s eyes... and tell me he belongs on the trash heap. Not unlike Feynman’s if I’m not mistaken.
     
    One thing I am pretty sure of, from decades of observation, is that neither I nor you nor any human being can tell whether what some guy is preaching is true by looking at a still picture of that guy's eyes.

    Including Feynman.

    Note: I did not accept what Feynman said on faith: I checked it out, and some of it did not check out. Enough of it did check out (mathematical calculations or empirical data) that I took seriously what he said about physics -- but I still checked it out.

    Incidentally, I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise (i.e., physical science). Years later, I did find out, a bit to my surprise, that Feynman had reached political views not that far from yours or mine, which I did find interesting.

    the only source for a lot of Christian beliefs — the Virgin Birth, the empty tomb, etc. — is one or more of the four Gospels

    As if the faith – and lives lived in and for that faith – of nearly a hundred generations are nothing! Think of the fruit (the vast majority of it as saecular as your research) of those lives well lived.

    You’re little better here than the thugs who burned the Library of Alexandria.

  172. Desiderius wrote to me:

    As if the faith – and lives lived in and for that faith – of nearly a hundred generations are nothing! Think of the fruit (the vast majority of it as saecular as your research) of those lives well lived.

    You mean the faith of Muslims? Or Hindus? Or maybe Zoroasatrians?

    In all honesty, the behavior of Christians during the last two millennia is kinda unimpressive. Okay — not quite accurate: it is “impressive,” but in a very, very bad way.

    Christianity could be true, as bad as Christians have been. But appealing to Christians’ actual behavior argues for the opposite conclusion.

    Desiderius also asked:

    [Dave ]I did not take particularly seriously what Feynman or any other physics prof said in areas outside of their field of expertise

    [Desiderius] Such as biblical criticism, for instance?

    Exactly, now you are getting it!

    I don’t even know what Feynman thought about “Biblical criticism.” Nor do I care.

    I can check the Bible out for myself directly. And, see for myself directly that it is nonsense.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    The book of Acts speaks of early Christians recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit in people immediately by sight.

    Ummmm…. and the comic books say Superman can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

    A depressingly large number of people are very, very good at faking out most of their fellow human beings: some make a (relatively honest) living as actors, but many make it as politicians or other varieties of con artists and criminals. It’s sort of important to know this!

    Desiderius also wrote:

    If you pay attention to each of the words I carefully chose to describe the practices of those people of exceptional character I observed, you’ll find that no one on your list fits the description.

    Not true. I have known Christian Scientists, Scientologists, Mormons, Muslims, etc. of just as exceptional character as any Christians I have known or heard of.

    You need to get out and meet people more, son! People of different backgrounds and faith traditions.

    Desiderius also wrote:

    [Dave] Is becoming a Christian a cure? Well… I would think ending the power of the ruling elite might be more efficacious.

    [Desiderius]The last time we were here Christians were leading that exact charge.

    Well, as I have said many times both here and all around the Web over the decades, Christianity is one of the most hateful ideologies in human history — all that stuff about sending to eternal torment in the fire that never ends anyone who denies the rather silly Christian myths.

    But, actual concrete human beings who are Christians, in my observation, are neither much worse nor much better than non-believers or believers in other religions. It’s clear that the ideology of the Western elite is an offspring of Christianity — Hillary is quite sincere in thinking that her paternalistic liberalism is just working out the Social Gospel of the mainline churches she grew up around.

    On the other hand, libertarian ideas grew up among the radical Christians of the seveententh century: Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson in the colonies and the Levellers in England. And, since most Americans remain nominal Christians, it is not surprising that most opposition to the ruling elite also comes from Christians.

    Social life has always been ironic like that.

    So, personally, I take the good folks where I find them — Christians, atheists, Muslims, Scientologists, or whatever. They all have their own bizarre delusions (yes, including a lot of atheists!).

    “Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.”

    (NOTE: I have combined answer in to one comment, lest the number of comments blossom exponentially!)

    • Agree: nebulafox
  173. @AnotherDad
    If any of that was remotely true. If the coming non-white majority is so much better ... why don't they just set up their own wonderful nation and leave us the hell alone?

    That's the part they can never quite answer. Why exactly do you have to drag us, kicking and screaming into your utopia?

    The question cannot arise bcos the logic of karma is you reap what you sow. The law of karma is the results of your individual action only.Your karma cannot depend on your ancestors, race, color or somebody else’s action( karma). It will always be the results of your own action whether it’s good, bad or neutral. I think people should not use this idea for political gains. As a Tibetan Buddhist and being born in Exil( parents having to leave their homeland due to massacre, looting & suppression by the commies) I still remember the food rations that were given to us by the US/Aid and I am personally thankful to the Americans and their ancestors having contributed to it. Also the contribution to the idea of freedom which is a natural right in order take action(karma- positive/negative/ neutral)in ones own life. It’s sad nowadays to see society’s lacking interest in protecting their freedom from being taken away and realizing it only after it’s gone. The US used to be a lead in the ideas of individual freedom( it’s a free country, one hardly hears it now.)but I hope it doesn’t turn into a collective socialist suppressors of freedom. Going back to notion of karma:One doesn’t become noble by ones birth but by ones deeds- the Buddha.

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