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"FDNY’s New Entry Exam Asks About Everything But Firefighting"
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Back in 2007, the Bush Administration rewarded the firemen of New York City, 343 of whom died on 9/11, by suing them for disparate impact discrimination in hiring. In 2009 a Democratic judge ruled the test devised by the city of New York was racially/ethnically biased because it presented readings on fire safety and then asked hard questions, such as: what kind of chainsaw should you use to cut through a steel door? You could pass the test either by having strong reading comprehension skills or by studying firefighting intensively.

From the New York Post:

FDNY’s new entry exam asks about everything but firefighting
By Susan Edelman March 20, 2016 | 6:06am

​FDNY candidates ​will take an entry exam that quizzes them on topics like African ​killer bees and on math questions such as comparing veggie chips to pretzels, but little on firefighting.

With the city planning to give the first FDNY entry exam in five years in 2017, critics say the test has been dumbed down since a judge ruled ​a former exam discriminated against minorities.

A recently posted preparation manual asks aspiring Bravest to practice by watching videos produced by Lowe’s hardware store on how to install a ​toilet, replace a ​sin​k, and lay a tile floor.

“It’s great to prepare firemen for their second jobs as plumbers,” an insider quipped. “The FDNY might as well call this the ‘Side Job Preparation Guide.’ ”

To test reading comprehension, the tutorial asks applicants to read a 1998 Tampa Tribune article, “Natural Born Killers,” on African bees migrating to the United States.

On math, it first gives tips​ on solving word problems, then a sample exercise showing the nutritional labels for vegetable chips, rice cakes, trail mix and pretzel twists.

The first of 10 multiple-choice questions says: “Firefighter Harris ate one cup of Fruit & Nut Trail Mix. What percentage of Saturated Fat did she have (% Daily Value)?” Other questions ask test-takers to compare ​the ​snacks for fat, carbohydrates and protein.

In another exercise, applicants read labels on bottles of aspirin and acetaminophen, then answer questions such as: “Which medicine relieves pain from toothaches?”

… The test is apparently meant to level the playing field so those more familiar with firefighting don’t have an advantage.

… In January 2010, Brooklyn federal Judge Nicholas Giraufis ruled the FDNY exams first given in 1999 and 2002 discriminated against black applicants and halted their use. The city later agreed to pay $98 million in back pay to those minorities passed over, and give some a second​ chance to join the department.

The city and the Vulcan Society, a fraternal group of black firefighters, devised a new exam that Garaufis approved in 2012. Of 9,400 who scored high enough to be hired, 42.3 percent were minorities​ — more than ever.

As I wrote in 2012:

Now, the FDNY has finally learned the lesson that La Griffe du Lion pointed out years ago: If you want to please the feds, you can minimize disparate impact (percentage point differential) of the hiring test by making it extremely easy, then hiring randomly.

The 2012 test approved by Judge Garufis was passed by 97% of test-takers.

 
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  1. Any test that requires study is, ipso facto, racist.

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  2. george says:

    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    That's what Emily Bazelon of the Yale Law School asked in 2009 in Slate. I asked in response whether she had any career advantages in law in being the granddaughter of David Bazelon, chief judge of the first district court of appeal and Supreme Court justice William Brennan's best friend.
    , @EriK
    Right, because it's much better to have applicants ignorant of the profession with no experience.
    , @gruff
    I want firefighters to be drawn from a pool of people already familiar with firefighting. They will only get better. Professionalism is a virtue that should be fostered.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson

    children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments
     
    Let us agree that you and your property will be serviced exclusively by those who are not children of firefighters and have no experience with volunteer fire departments. And those neophytes can earn their on-the-job training at your expense. How about it george? After all, how bad can third-degree burns and the needless loss of your family members be in the face of you doing this for the 'greater good'?
    , @Chrisnonymous
    So why do you need to know about arithmetic to go into a program to teach you about mathematics?

    So why do you need to know about reading to go into a program to teach you about English lit?

    So why do you need to know about biology to go into a program to teach you about medicine?

    etc.

    Anyhow, the real answer is that the test didn't test you on your knowledge of firefighting, it tested "reading comprehension, problem solving, spatial recognition and applying rules to general concepts", but it probably did so by putting questions in the form of firefighting scenarios. It seems to me that if you're a person whose reasoning is interrupted by introducing facts about fires, you might not fare as well in learning firefighting as someone who's not.
    , @Dr. X

    a Democratic judge ruled the test devised by the city of New York was racially/ethnically biased because it presented readings on fire safety and then asked hard questions, such as: what kind of chainsaw should you use to cut through a steel door?

     

    According to the article, knowledge of firefighting was not so much the issue as being able to acquire that knowledge via reading comprehension. Of course you cannot be expected to have a priori knowledge of a subject you are going to be trained in, but you need to have the ability to comprehend the upcoming training.
    , @keypusher
    The hilarious thing, of course, is that the disparate impact of the old tests is ascribed to their firefighting content. You know, because otherwise blacks and whites would score the same, like they do on other standardized tests.

    The way NY solved its disparate impact test problem was by making the test really easy. The city didn't have to eliminate the firefighting content. Eliminating the firefighting content was just a way to conceal what the city was really up to.
    , @donut
    In this website anybody that gets this many replies is a troll .
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  3. ziel says:

    A written test centered around hip-hop lyrics would result in negative disparate impact against African-Americans.

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  4. Sean C says:

    LA County Sheriff Dept. had a test of basic English. To pass you needed to score over 50%, if you got 51% that was just as good as if you scored 100% in the hiring process.

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  5. Jimi says:

    I suspect elite judges think a fireman’s job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose.

    In NYC you you have 150 year old rotten wood death traps standing side by side with new sprinklered buildings that compartmentalize to prevent the spread of fire. And all the buildings that come in between with varying degrees of safety. Firefighters need to know all types of building and their particular weaknesses and strengths.

    Check out this introductory manual designed to teach NYC firemen the differences:

    http://home.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/training/pdf/proby_manual/09_building_descriptions.pdf

    You don’t need to be a genius to figure this stuff out but you need to have a certain level of intelligence and diligence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "I suspect elite judges think a fireman’s job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose."

    It's the kind of ruling that reveals what law school graduate judges think of lesser, blue collar types. In their minds practicing law requires intelligence and education, but any dumbass can fight a fire.

    I worked my way through college working blue collar jobs. Then I managed some of those same blue collar workers for a few years. Then I switched to a white collar industry. Whether blue collar or white collar, intelligence and work ethic make a huge difference in quality and productivity. When it comes to fighting fires that difference is measured in the number of lives saved.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    FF can be fairly technical. They offer Masters degrees in Fire Science and Fire Protection Engineering. It's not just point a hose and spray. If judges believe that, they're wrong.
    , @Steve Austen
    Let people who do not know the law become law talking dudes. Hillary could then have been a corrupt Shelbyville lawyer instead of a corrupt Springfield one.
    , @fish

    "In NYC you you have 150 year old rotten wood death traps standing side by side with new sprinklered buildings that compartmentalize to prevent the spread of fire. And all the buildings that come in between with varying degrees of safety. Firefighters need to know all types of building and their particular weaknesses and strengths."
     



    Eh....whaddya going to do......if a crew full of room temperature IQ NAMs run into a building and burn to death because they weren't smart enough to adequately apprise the situation I guess that's just the price of making the De Blasios of this world feel morally superior!

    ....and isn't that really what's important?
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  6. @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    That’s what Emily Bazelon of the Yale Law School asked in 2009 in Slate. I asked in response whether she had any career advantages in law in being the granddaughter of David Bazelon, chief judge of the first district court of appeal and Supreme Court justice William Brennan’s best friend.

    Read More
    • Replies: @George
    OK she is a hypocrite.

    The biggest scam is requiring an undergraduate degree to attend law school, as far as I know no other country requires someone to attend 4 years of university to qualify to spend another 2 or 3 to attend law school. In reality there should be no requirement to become a lawyer beyond passing the bar, but that is too radical for most even though in the past one became a lawyer by apprenticing as a clerk.

    BTW, why not require an undergraduate degree in say engineering or chemistry to become a fireman?

    President Van Buren avoided student loans by entering the legal profession at age 14.

    Van Buren received a basic education at the village schoolhouse and briefly studied Latin at the Kinderhook Academy and at Washington Seminary in Claverack.[26][27] His formal education ended before he reached 14, when he began reading law in 1796 at the office of Peter Silvester and his son Francis, prominent Federalist attorneys in Kinderhook. -wikipedia

    , @Triumph104
    Tiger Mom's daughter Sophia has been accepted to Yale Law School. Did the fact that both of her parents are famous Yale law professors play a role in her acceptance? We'll never know.

    When Neil deGrasse Tyson's daughter was asked if having a famous father had anything to do with her getting into Harvard, his alma mater, she replied: "It would be ignorant of me to claim that my relationship to my dad had nothing to do with my admission to Harvard. That being said, Harvard is not a school that would blindly accept a student based on the merit of his or her parent. It is not out of "luck" that I got in. I have worked very hard over the past few years, and Harvard recognized that. I like to believe my own merit supported me more than my dad's did. But if that isn't true, I now have the opportunity to prove to Harvard that I was the right choice. And I intend to take it."
    , @unit472
    I don't think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law. As I recall the former lead guitar player for Country Joe and the Fish, Barry Melton became an attorney after passing the California State Bar exam.

    (To be certain I checked his Wiki bio and it seems Melton did sign up for classes with the original 'tear the cover off the matchbook ' correspondence school, LaSalle University, but I doubt if the 'law school' was accredited)

    , @Anonym
    And how did she answer?
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  7. TangoMan says:

    Do you ever experience the sensation of overwhelming despair washing over you after you read news like this? Sometimes it helps to pretend that I’m Alice and have gone through the Looking Glass, but I can only pretend that I’m in a make-believe world for a second or two before reality intrudes.

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    • Agree: gruff
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  8. Richard S says:

    You see, you can hire these halfwitted People of Stupid to do no-work jobs, like consulting on diversity awareness, or lecturing on pre-colonial African “history” (HINT: It’s only history, by definition, if there are written records).

    But what happens when ideological doublethink bounces up against something like, oh I don’t know, firemen (btw, hilarious that firefighter Harris is a she) who have to walk into burning and collapsing structures to rescue children and the infirm?

    I predict that when fires in New York start burning out of control because the new recruits keep trying butane instead of carbon dioxide, the blame will lie with the structural, system racism of the physics of combustion.

    Good point on how America treats its heroes btw. 9/11 first responders were just so many straight White Christian males, after all. What right did they have to interfere with the political self-expression of sacred Muslim foreigners?

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    • Replies: @Je Suis Charlie Martel
    Harris... Kamala Harris?
    , @The most deplorable one
    I think New York City deserves all the diversity it is going to get, good and hard.
    , @AndrewR
    This sort of stuff will only get worse before it gets better. We live in a top-down authoritarian theocracy and the religion is Cultural Marxism. There is little escape and less each day. Get out of cities while you still can.
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  9. I’ve taken firefighting exams before (not FDNY though). From my experience, the tests tend to have these type of sections:

    1. Basic math
    2. Memorizing tools/knots and their functions
    3. Memorizing the layout of a room
    4. Memorizing the details of a fire scene
    5. Reading a fire-related passage and then later recalling details

    You need to have good memorization skills to do well. Especially the ability to recall images.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    If you do well enough on the test, then they'll call you in for an oral interview. Typically they'll ask questions about your work experience, teamwork&leadership skills, views on ethnic diversity, etc.

    The oral interviewers are under heavy pressure to give generous grades to certain underrepresented minority groups and also women. If you're black or a woman, expect to be graded very easily at the oral interviews. That's mostly because of all the law suits involving blacks complaining about racism and women complaining about sexual harassment. FF depts are eager to hire lots of blacks and women to avoid more law suits.

    If you do well at the oral interview, usually you proceed to a second round of orals. If you do well there, you are given a background check. If you pass, you get the job. Of course, even after getting the job, you have to pass through basic training.

    It helps to be a military veteran too, as veterans are given a large number of preference points. In one fire department I applied to, I was told that 30% of the FFs were veterans.

    , @pyrrhus
    Not any more, not if you're a minority or female....
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  10. To test reading comprehension, the tutorial asks applicants to read a 1998 Tampa Tribune article, “Natural Born Killers,” on African bees migrating to the United States.

    That bees rayciss! Lawsuit!

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  11. @JohnnyWalker123
    I've taken firefighting exams before (not FDNY though). From my experience, the tests tend to have these type of sections:


    1. Basic math
    2. Memorizing tools/knots and their functions
    3. Memorizing the layout of a room
    4. Memorizing the details of a fire scene
    5. Reading a fire-related passage and then later recalling details

    You need to have good memorization skills to do well. Especially the ability to recall images.

    If you do well enough on the test, then they’ll call you in for an oral interview. Typically they’ll ask questions about your work experience, teamwork&leadership skills, views on ethnic diversity, etc.

    The oral interviewers are under heavy pressure to give generous grades to certain underrepresented minority groups and also women. If you’re black or a woman, expect to be graded very easily at the oral interviews. That’s mostly because of all the law suits involving blacks complaining about racism and women complaining about sexual harassment. FF depts are eager to hire lots of blacks and women to avoid more law suits.

    If you do well at the oral interview, usually you proceed to a second round of orals. If you do well there, you are given a background check. If you pass, you get the job. Of course, even after getting the job, you have to pass through basic training.

    It helps to be a military veteran too, as veterans are given a large number of preference points. In one fire department I applied to, I was told that 30% of the FFs were veterans.

    Read More
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  12. @Richard S
    You see, you can hire these halfwitted People of Stupid to do no-work jobs, like consulting on diversity awareness, or lecturing on pre-colonial African "history" (HINT: It's only history, by definition, if there are written records).

    But what happens when ideological doublethink bounces up against something like, oh I don't know, firemen (btw, hilarious that firefighter Harris is a she) who have to walk into burning and collapsing structures to rescue children and the infirm?

    I predict that when fires in New York start burning out of control because the new recruits keep trying butane instead of carbon dioxide, the blame will lie with the structural, system racism of the physics of combustion.

    Good point on how America treats its heroes btw. 9/11 first responders were just so many straight White Christian males, after all. What right did they have to interfere with the political self-expression of sacred Muslim foreigners?

    Harris… Kamala Harris?

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Harris… Kamala Harris?
     
    As an AA hire, "Bomber" Harris might be more appropriate.
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  13. FDNY is under more pressure to hire minorities than other departments. Not only do you see lots of black and Hispanic hires these days, but even Asians and (even more implausibly) Indians/Pakistanis. They want the dept to reflect the city’s diversity. NYPD is even worse.

    For a very long time though, the FDNY just hired lots of ethnic Italian/Irish guys. They were able to get away with it too. Much better than the NYPD.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    In Chicago CFD stayed more Irish dominated, longer, than CPD.
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  14. By the way, let me repeat a comment I made a few months ago.

    Being a large-city firefighter is a good deal.

    1. Typically the base salary for large-city staff FFers (attained after a few years) is in the 90-100K range. Very good benefits, strong union, and lots of vacation too.
    2. They work a one-day on, two-day off schedule. Some work two-days on, four-days off schedule. So lots of time for hobbies, relaxing, partying, starting your own band, getting a side job, etc. Even when they’re on the job, there’s a lot of downtime and fairly low stress.
    3. Very generous pension (50% of peak salary after 20 years on the force). Lots of fire fighters even “double dip” by getting a 50K/yr pension and working a second job.
    4. Very strong job security. Rare for there to be layoffs.
    5. If you test well, you can test up into senior level positions. Some of the higher-ups in the organizations actually have considerable prestige in their local city govts.
    6. For a kid who can’t enter an elite career track (finance, law, medicine, consulting) and doesn’t want to go the entrepreneurship route, climbing the ranks of a FF department can be a good option to attain prestige and power. The competition is less fierce too.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

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    • Replies: @Big Bill

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.
     
    Only if you are in a rich white city: one in which the NAM tax burden +public payroll + pensions is not crushing, like Chicago or Detroit.

    Not Fresno or Newark or Baltimore or any of the dozens of cities and counties that have lost their tax base and borrow money they can never pay back.

    Preferably a banksta city like New York that can collect as much money from the elite as necessary to pay salaries and FD pensions (and who in turn extract THEIR wealth from pension funds and working stiffs in the rest of the country).
    , @AnonAnon
    You need to add a seventh bullet point: You'll score a hot wife.

    There are a number of firefighters in my Orange County neighborhood and all of them have very nice looking (my husband says hot) stay at home wives who have large rocks on their fingers and live in pricier homes than mine.
    , @TrumpMonster
    Except that these jobs don't really exist (better buildings,materials, education,prevention, etc municipal cut backs because of the aforementioned) unless you fill a quota. If you don't fit the quota it s because you were hired years ago. Thus when that tier retires we an entire department full shit tier hires. It's why these tests matter, God help us.
    , @Discard
    I have read that firemen have far fewer fires to deal with than in times past. Smoke alarms, automatic sprinklers, OSHA regulations, etc, have made fires less common and less destructive. When it's time to run into the burning building and pull the children out, they have to earn their keep, but you can be a dummy or a weakling and get by for a longer time than was possible decades ago.
    , @PiltdownMan
    An equally good job is one as a New York State highway trooper. The salaries are even higher- apparently about $120k to start with and rising to the $180k range, with considerable overtime potential and a pension deal similar to FDNY. Plus, unlike the New York City firefighters, you are likely to luck out and live in a low cost, scenic location somewhere upstate. I'm told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. Also, my source tells me, there are only a handful of similar police gigs around the country. For what it's worth...
    , @E. Rekshun
    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I have said this exact same thing.

    I'm familiar with a few firefighters that hold two "full-time" firefighter positions in two different cities. They're able to schedule their 24 hours on/48 hours off to allow them to do this. The earn about $70K at each job, and earn two pensions!

    The firefighters have strong unions and media and over the years have been able to bamboozle the public as to how "dangerous" and busy their jobs are. The local city officials are scared of the fire unions and roll over every three years at contract negotiation time. Remember, every firefighter wage and benefit was negotiated by city management and approved by city council.
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  15. Cracker says:

    Let is all burn. All of it…

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  16. Yak-15 says:

    I admire La Grife but I still find it hard to believe his Hispanic and crime hypothesis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gda
    Moi aussi. It's almost as if someone impersonating La Griffe had suddenly captured his website and was writing crazy stuff. Quite bizarre. Of course others may have their own nefarious theories....
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  17. A passing score of 65 on the NY Algebra I Regents exam can be earned by answering 38 percent of the questions correctly.

    On many AP exams, answering 70 percent of the questions correctly will earn a top score of 5.

    A French citizen has to pass the baccalaureate in order to be admitted to a university. The pass rate is 90 percent.

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    • Replies: @The most deplorable one

    The pass rate is 90 percent.
     
    Did you mean that a mark of 90% in the test is required to pass or that 90% of those taking the test pass?
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  18. George says:
    @Steve Sailer
    That's what Emily Bazelon of the Yale Law School asked in 2009 in Slate. I asked in response whether she had any career advantages in law in being the granddaughter of David Bazelon, chief judge of the first district court of appeal and Supreme Court justice William Brennan's best friend.

    OK she is a hypocrite.

    The biggest scam is requiring an undergraduate degree to attend law school, as far as I know no other country requires someone to attend 4 years of university to qualify to spend another 2 or 3 to attend law school. In reality there should be no requirement to become a lawyer beyond passing the bar, but that is too radical for most even though in the past one became a lawyer by apprenticing as a clerk.

    BTW, why not require an undergraduate degree in say engineering or chemistry to become a fireman?

    President Van Buren avoided student loans by entering the legal profession at age 14.

    Van Buren received a basic education at the village schoolhouse and briefly studied Latin at the Kinderhook Academy and at Washington Seminary in Claverack.[26][27] His formal education ended before he reached 14, when he began reading law in 1796 at the office of Peter Silvester and his son Francis, prominent Federalist attorneys in Kinderhook. -wikipedia

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In other countries, you have to take rigorous college entrance exams in order to pass into college in the first place, and also into the major of your choice. Many countries even place students on specific study tracks years before the end of highschool, and not all students qualify to even take the entrance exams for studying law.

    We can debate the pros and cons of such a system versus the American one, but I think it goes against the American ethos to tell a student that they can't choose what they want to study. I wonder if all the Bernie Sanders supporters quite understand the major restrictions that come along with free higher education, as it's such a different system from the American one. Or do they believe that they can do away with these restrictions and keep the system as it is now, only free?
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  19. Dee says:

    I’d love to see one of these pin head judges get roasted in a fire, not killed, when one of the ‘under represented’ screws up…then he would be able to contemplate the error of his decision…Good ole Griggs v Duke Power strikes again!

    Knew a white guy that tried for 15 years to get hired by a FD; even though he was in a 95% white city, they still were trying for womyn and minorities under court order. He finally gave up after tearing up his knee snow skiing.

    Read More
    • Agree: BB753
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  20. Big Bill says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    By the way, let me repeat a comment I made a few months ago.

    Being a large-city firefighter is a good deal.

    1. Typically the base salary for large-city staff FFers (attained after a few years) is in the 90-100K range. Very good benefits, strong union, and lots of vacation too.
    2. They work a one-day on, two-day off schedule. Some work two-days on, four-days off schedule. So lots of time for hobbies, relaxing, partying, starting your own band, getting a side job, etc. Even when they’re on the job, there’s a lot of downtime and fairly low stress.
    3. Very generous pension (50% of peak salary after 20 years on the force). Lots of fire fighters even “double dip” by getting a 50K/yr pension and working a second job.
    4. Very strong job security. Rare for there to be layoffs.
    5. If you test well, you can test up into senior level positions. Some of the higher-ups in the organizations actually have considerable prestige in their local city govts.
    6. For a kid who can’t enter an elite career track (finance, law, medicine, consulting) and doesn’t want to go the entrepreneurship route, climbing the ranks of a FF department can be a good option to attain prestige and power. The competition is less fierce too.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    Only if you are in a rich white city: one in which the NAM tax burden +public payroll + pensions is not crushing, like Chicago or Detroit.

    Not Fresno or Newark or Baltimore or any of the dozens of cities and counties that have lost their tax base and borrow money they can never pay back.

    Preferably a banksta city like New York that can collect as much money from the elite as necessary to pay salaries and FD pensions (and who in turn extract THEIR wealth from pension funds and working stiffs in the rest of the country).

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Good point. Cities like Seattle, Portland, NYC, San Jose, San Francisco, etc. Cities with lots of high-earning taxpayers and responsible govts. If you retire in a city with financial problems, they could cut your pension.

    Firefighters get to retire after 20 years, at 50% of their highest base salary. So if you start at age 22 and earn 90K/yr (at your peak earnings), you can retire at age 42 and collect 45K/yr for the rest of your life. If you want, you can get hired into another department. Then once you hit 62, you theoretically be taking 90K/yr in pension (45K+45K).
    , @Eric Novak
    Ha! Chicago Fire Dept. pension is secure in comparison to that of Chicago teachers and city workers, who have separate funds. CPD salaries exceed $100K with add-on qualifications, such as fire training, water rescue, etc., etc., and budget problems resolved by recent raises in property taxes on all properties over $250K guarantee that these brave, self-sacrificing fire warriors sitting on their asses all day long will continue to collect big salaries and benefits. Detroit is a dead city; Chicago, like NYC, has yet to see diminishing returns on taxing its professional class. Tune in to Chicago Fire on NBC for details.
    , @Hibernian
    Not too long ago NYC was known for having very low police starting salaries. The cops could eventually earn a decent salary but it took a long time, maybe 10 years. NYC allows them to live out of the city and many live far outside the city for affordable housing, resulting in brutally long commutes.
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  21. AnonAnon says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    By the way, let me repeat a comment I made a few months ago.

    Being a large-city firefighter is a good deal.

    1. Typically the base salary for large-city staff FFers (attained after a few years) is in the 90-100K range. Very good benefits, strong union, and lots of vacation too.
    2. They work a one-day on, two-day off schedule. Some work two-days on, four-days off schedule. So lots of time for hobbies, relaxing, partying, starting your own band, getting a side job, etc. Even when they’re on the job, there’s a lot of downtime and fairly low stress.
    3. Very generous pension (50% of peak salary after 20 years on the force). Lots of fire fighters even “double dip” by getting a 50K/yr pension and working a second job.
    4. Very strong job security. Rare for there to be layoffs.
    5. If you test well, you can test up into senior level positions. Some of the higher-ups in the organizations actually have considerable prestige in their local city govts.
    6. For a kid who can’t enter an elite career track (finance, law, medicine, consulting) and doesn’t want to go the entrepreneurship route, climbing the ranks of a FF department can be a good option to attain prestige and power. The competition is less fierce too.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    You need to add a seventh bullet point: You’ll score a hot wife.

    There are a number of firefighters in my Orange County neighborhood and all of them have very nice looking (my husband says hot) stay at home wives who have large rocks on their fingers and live in pricier homes than mine.

    Read More
    • Agree: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Definitely.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QgctZDpHSQ
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  22. @Steve Sailer
    That's what Emily Bazelon of the Yale Law School asked in 2009 in Slate. I asked in response whether she had any career advantages in law in being the granddaughter of David Bazelon, chief judge of the first district court of appeal and Supreme Court justice William Brennan's best friend.

    Tiger Mom’s daughter Sophia has been accepted to Yale Law School. Did the fact that both of her parents are famous Yale law professors play a role in her acceptance? We’ll never know.

    When Neil deGrasse Tyson’s daughter was asked if having a famous father had anything to do with her getting into Harvard, his alma mater, she replied: “It would be ignorant of me to claim that my relationship to my dad had nothing to do with my admission to Harvard. That being said, Harvard is not a school that would blindly accept a student based on the merit of his or her parent. It is not out of “luck” that I got in. I have worked very hard over the past few years, and Harvard recognized that. I like to believe my own merit supported me more than my dad’s did. But if that isn’t true, I now have the opportunity to prove to Harvard that I was the right choice. And I intend to take it.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Neil deGrasse Tyson’s wife, Alice Young, is white, of course.
    , @Olorin
    Remember that Tyson miraculously got into Harvard's Ph.D. after flunking out of UT-Austin (but still getting a master's). The Princeton post-doc followed, then the headship of the Hayden.

    His daughter got into Harvard because his father was Cyril de Grasse Tyson, a big mahoff in NYC civil rights in the early years (HARYOU, later 100 Black Men). Anybody else who had a son who flunked out of astrophysics at UT would have had to go drive a cab or something.

    Sean Davis at The Federalist has written some good pieces on the fraudulence of Tyson fils.

    http://thefederalist.com/tag/neil-degrasse-tyson/

    Tyson, the "public face of science."

    http://alcalde.texasexes.org/2012/02/star-power/

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/1683635/a-tale-of-two-icons-when-john-lewis-met-neil-degrasse-tyson-at-comic-con

    But it all flowed out of creating an artificial black elite. Intelligence, accomplishment not needed. Just the proper concatenation of significances.

    , @Ed
    Tyson's daughter sounds like she's Harvard material, great response.
    , @Bill
    When I think "merit," Black Science Man's is not the picture that pops into my head.
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  23. I have a dream that little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

    Just kidding, sucker!

    Read More
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  24. pyrrhus says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    I've taken firefighting exams before (not FDNY though). From my experience, the tests tend to have these type of sections:


    1. Basic math
    2. Memorizing tools/knots and their functions
    3. Memorizing the layout of a room
    4. Memorizing the details of a fire scene
    5. Reading a fire-related passage and then later recalling details

    You need to have good memorization skills to do well. Especially the ability to recall images.

    Not any more, not if you’re a minority or female….

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    It's actually still pretty hard even then. The difference is that it's much tougher to be in the top 1-2% of white male applicants than in the top 1-2% of women/NAM applicants.

    You have to be decently competent to get hired in to a lot of departments. Not sure about FDNY, as I never tested there.
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  25. Rob McX says:

    The city later agreed to pay $98 million in back pay to those minorities passed over…

    So they got $98m in “back pay” for a job they didn’t do because they weren’t good enough to be hired.

    Nice work if you can get it – or even if you can’t.

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  26. anon says: • Disclaimer

    My relative has tried out several times for the fire department. He graduated from a ten month long course on firefighting that cost him about 16K. One thing that he told me really struck me. The male testers have to drag a dummy 100 yards weighing 180 pounds. But the female testers only have to drag a dummy weighing 120 pounds. When I asked one of his instructors what would happen in real life if a female firefighter had to drag a 180 pound person out, I was just met with embarrassing silence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    It's really tough to get hired in large-city FF depts. When I took my last test, there were 7,000 applicants for less than 200 jobs. Not surprisingly, I didn't get hired.
    , @Anonymous
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb_WYGtZ7K4
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  27. EriK says:
    @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    Right, because it’s much better to have applicants ignorant of the profession with no experience.

    Read More
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  28. All standards are racist. Live with it.

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  29. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Richard S
    You see, you can hire these halfwitted People of Stupid to do no-work jobs, like consulting on diversity awareness, or lecturing on pre-colonial African "history" (HINT: It's only history, by definition, if there are written records).

    But what happens when ideological doublethink bounces up against something like, oh I don't know, firemen (btw, hilarious that firefighter Harris is a she) who have to walk into burning and collapsing structures to rescue children and the infirm?

    I predict that when fires in New York start burning out of control because the new recruits keep trying butane instead of carbon dioxide, the blame will lie with the structural, system racism of the physics of combustion.

    Good point on how America treats its heroes btw. 9/11 first responders were just so many straight White Christian males, after all. What right did they have to interfere with the political self-expression of sacred Muslim foreigners?

    I think New York City deserves all the diversity it is going to get, good and hard.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    FDNY actually fiercely resisted for a very long time. The overwhelming majority of already hired FFs are still white males. It was the courts that forced them to change.

    The Italians and Irish in FDNY have a lot of fight. They never wanted AA in hiring. It was forced on their dept.

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  30. gruff says:
    @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    I want firefighters to be drawn from a pool of people already familiar with firefighting. They will only get better. Professionalism is a virtue that should be fostered.

    Read More
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  31. @JohnnyWalker123
    By the way, let me repeat a comment I made a few months ago.

    Being a large-city firefighter is a good deal.

    1. Typically the base salary for large-city staff FFers (attained after a few years) is in the 90-100K range. Very good benefits, strong union, and lots of vacation too.
    2. They work a one-day on, two-day off schedule. Some work two-days on, four-days off schedule. So lots of time for hobbies, relaxing, partying, starting your own band, getting a side job, etc. Even when they’re on the job, there’s a lot of downtime and fairly low stress.
    3. Very generous pension (50% of peak salary after 20 years on the force). Lots of fire fighters even “double dip” by getting a 50K/yr pension and working a second job.
    4. Very strong job security. Rare for there to be layoffs.
    5. If you test well, you can test up into senior level positions. Some of the higher-ups in the organizations actually have considerable prestige in their local city govts.
    6. For a kid who can’t enter an elite career track (finance, law, medicine, consulting) and doesn’t want to go the entrepreneurship route, climbing the ranks of a FF department can be a good option to attain prestige and power. The competition is less fierce too.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    Except that these jobs don’t really exist (better buildings,materials, education,prevention, etc municipal cut backs because of the aforementioned) unless you fill a quota. If you don’t fit the quota it s because you were hired years ago. Thus when that tier retires we an entire department full shit tier hires. It’s why these tests matter, God help us.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Over time, attrition and AA will lower the quality of fire fighters. No doubt on that. The applicant pool is large enough that even the hired minorities are generally competent to an extent. Just not as competent as non-AA white males. In a life and death situation, I want the most qualified person on the job.
    , @Hibernian
    Any large, old, city is filled with firetraps, commercial, residential, and industrial. Often they're occupied. Also, people do stupid things. Additionally, there's no such thing as a fireproof building, no matter how modern. The McCormack Place fire in Chicago in (I think) the early or mid '60s showed that. (It was built without a sprinkler system because it was all steel, glass, and concrete, neglecting the flammable contents of an exhibition hall, and the large open spaces through which fire could spread quickly. Fortunately it was very lightly occupied at the time the fire was detected.) There will be a need for many good firefighters many years into the future.
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  32. utu says:
    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops
     
    Yep, the problem in America is we have too many high-IQ cops. If we can just replace them with stupid cops all would be good. Barney Fife, your moment has arrived!
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  33. Discard says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    By the way, let me repeat a comment I made a few months ago.

    Being a large-city firefighter is a good deal.

    1. Typically the base salary for large-city staff FFers (attained after a few years) is in the 90-100K range. Very good benefits, strong union, and lots of vacation too.
    2. They work a one-day on, two-day off schedule. Some work two-days on, four-days off schedule. So lots of time for hobbies, relaxing, partying, starting your own band, getting a side job, etc. Even when they’re on the job, there’s a lot of downtime and fairly low stress.
    3. Very generous pension (50% of peak salary after 20 years on the force). Lots of fire fighters even “double dip” by getting a 50K/yr pension and working a second job.
    4. Very strong job security. Rare for there to be layoffs.
    5. If you test well, you can test up into senior level positions. Some of the higher-ups in the organizations actually have considerable prestige in their local city govts.
    6. For a kid who can’t enter an elite career track (finance, law, medicine, consulting) and doesn’t want to go the entrepreneurship route, climbing the ranks of a FF department can be a good option to attain prestige and power. The competition is less fierce too.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I have read that firemen have far fewer fires to deal with than in times past. Smoke alarms, automatic sprinklers, OSHA regulations, etc, have made fires less common and less destructive. When it’s time to run into the burning building and pull the children out, they have to earn their keep, but you can be a dummy or a weakling and get by for a longer time than was possible decades ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    About 80% of firefighting calls are EMT-related. Only 20% involve fighting actual fires.

    EMT calls still require a high degree of competence. However, firefighting departments get huge numbers of applications and hire the top 1-2%. So even if they hire minorities/women due to AA, they can get fairly competent people. Just not quite as competent as they would if there was no AA.

    Firefighting is still 95% white as a profession. As it changes and becomes more diverse due to AA, perhaps competency will fall.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Discard, last month in Buffalo, at one fire, four people burned to death. A week later another fire took one life. I agree with most of your comment but, older houses, which is most of Buffalo's housing stock, are fire prone, not fire proof. My daughter lives in Bucks County, PA, high end housing requires sprinkler systems throughout the house. I escaped twice from burning plants when I was in construction, the fear of burning almost overwhelmed me. I was ok, others not so lucky. A few years ago, a Continental Commuter flight crashed into a house in our town. Fifty people died, including one in the house. Our local volunteers had to extract burned and maimed bodies from the wreckage. I can not imagine the horror and the nightmares. God bless firefighters.
    , @slumber_j
    I was talking to an FDNY fireman at a party recently, and he was talking about how there are way fewer fires now. He ascribed the drop to saturation cellphone ownership. As he put it, now they're mostly on-scene when things are still at the smoldering-pot stage.
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  34. M_Young says:

    “So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting?”

    1) Shows a pre-existing interest in the subject and/or willingness to study up on the subject

    2) Put the class that much farther ahead to start. Kind of like taking chemistry in high school and then again in college. A lot of the material is familiar, so can be dealt with that much quicker

    3) regardless, if I remember the ‘racist’ test question samples, they were mostly math or other thinking or reading comprehension type questions in a fire fighting setting.

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  35. @Je Suis Charlie Martel
    Harris... Kamala Harris?

    Harris… Kamala Harris?

    As an AA hire, “Bomber” Harris might be more appropriate.

    Read More
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  36. @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments

    Let us agree that you and your property will be serviced exclusively by those who are not children of firefighters and have no experience with volunteer fire departments. And those neophytes can earn their on-the-job training at your expense. How about it george? After all, how bad can third-degree burns and the needless loss of your family members be in the face of you doing this for the ‘greater good’?

    Read More
    • Replies: @george
    NY City does not have a volunteer fire department, so that means they have to drawn candidates from exclusively outside New York City. I dont see the city doing that. Why allow any business to hire outside the children of current employees.
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  37. Trelane says:

    Sample question from the FDNY civil service exam:

    Cheap chitlings (not the kind you purchase at a frozen food counter) will taste rubbery unless they are cooked long enough. How soon can you quit cooking them to eat and enjoy them?

    (a) 45 minutes, (b) 2 hours, (c) 24 hours, (d) 1 week (on a low flame), (e) 1 hour.

    Answer below.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Trelane
    Ans. imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
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  38. @utu
    Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

    Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops

    Yep, the problem in America is we have too many high-IQ cops. If we can just replace them with stupid cops all would be good. Barney Fife, your moment has arrived!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Actually, this makes sense. I read about a similar case years ago. If you look into this, I suspect it is the police department expressing this prejudice. There is evidence (I recall) that high IQ people under-perform as cops due to boredom, etc.

    It's just an important thing to remember when you interact with cops... reasoning with them is not going to work well for a variety of reasons...
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  39. Wilkey says:
    @Jimi
    I suspect elite judges think a fireman's job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose.

    In NYC you you have 150 year old rotten wood death traps standing side by side with new sprinklered buildings that compartmentalize to prevent the spread of fire. And all the buildings that come in between with varying degrees of safety. Firefighters need to know all types of building and their particular weaknesses and strengths.

    Check out this introductory manual designed to teach NYC firemen the differences:

    http://home.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/training/pdf/proby_manual/09_building_descriptions.pdf

    You don't need to be a genius to figure this stuff out but you need to have a certain level of intelligence and diligence.

    “I suspect elite judges think a fireman’s job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose.”

    It’s the kind of ruling that reveals what law school graduate judges think of lesser, blue collar types. In their minds practicing law requires intelligence and education, but any dumbass can fight a fire.

    I worked my way through college working blue collar jobs. Then I managed some of those same blue collar workers for a few years. Then I switched to a white collar industry. Whether blue collar or white collar, intelligence and work ethic make a huge difference in quality and productivity. When it comes to fighting fires that difference is measured in the number of lives saved.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Wilkey, Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Yes, the elites can't comprehend why you would need to be smart to be anything but a professional. My past is similar to yours, but I carried a union book and then managed construction and I too graduated from college while working full time. Years ago I was getting hammered by my ex in family court and it took it's toll on me. I was a mope and depressed. The guys working for me could sense my agony. One old ironworker took me aside and said..." you know Joe, I would be happier to tell people my daughter was a whore, than my son was a lawyer!" That says a lot, and you have a great day.
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  40. Wilkey says:

    The judge in this case, Nicholas Garaufis, was appointed by Bill Clinton. New Yorkers, including blue collar whites, voted for Bill Clinton twice and sent Hillary Clinton to the Senate, and then voted for the president who made her SecState.

    Democracy is the right of the people to get what they want, and get it good and hard.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave
    I live in NYC and know a couple veteran FF's. If you think those guys voted for Clinton then you don't have a good grasp of voting trends in NYC.
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  41. AndrewR says:
    @Richard S
    You see, you can hire these halfwitted People of Stupid to do no-work jobs, like consulting on diversity awareness, or lecturing on pre-colonial African "history" (HINT: It's only history, by definition, if there are written records).

    But what happens when ideological doublethink bounces up against something like, oh I don't know, firemen (btw, hilarious that firefighter Harris is a she) who have to walk into burning and collapsing structures to rescue children and the infirm?

    I predict that when fires in New York start burning out of control because the new recruits keep trying butane instead of carbon dioxide, the blame will lie with the structural, system racism of the physics of combustion.

    Good point on how America treats its heroes btw. 9/11 first responders were just so many straight White Christian males, after all. What right did they have to interfere with the political self-expression of sacred Muslim foreigners?

    This sort of stuff will only get worse before it gets better. We live in a top-down authoritarian theocracy and the religion is Cultural Marxism. There is little escape and less each day. Get out of cities while you still can.

    Read More
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  42. @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    So why do you need to know about arithmetic to go into a program to teach you about mathematics?

    So why do you need to know about reading to go into a program to teach you about English lit?

    So why do you need to know about biology to go into a program to teach you about medicine?

    etc.

    Anyhow, the real answer is that the test didn’t test you on your knowledge of firefighting, it tested “reading comprehension, problem solving, spatial recognition and applying rules to general concepts”, but it probably did so by putting questions in the form of firefighting scenarios. It seems to me that if you’re a person whose reasoning is interrupted by introducing facts about fires, you might not fare as well in learning firefighting as someone who’s not.

    Read More
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  43. @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops
     
    Yep, the problem in America is we have too many high-IQ cops. If we can just replace them with stupid cops all would be good. Barney Fife, your moment has arrived!

    Actually, this makes sense. I read about a similar case years ago. If you look into this, I suspect it is the police department expressing this prejudice. There is evidence (I recall) that high IQ people under-perform as cops due to boredom, etc.

    It’s just an important thing to remember when you interact with cops… reasoning with them is not going to work well for a variety of reasons…

    Read More
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  44. Trelane says:
    @Trelane
    Sample question from the FDNY civil service exam:

    Cheap chitlings (not the kind you purchase at a frozen food counter) will taste rubbery unless they are cooked long enough. How soon can you quit cooking them to eat and enjoy them?

    (a) 45 minutes, (b) 2 hours, (c) 24 hours, (d) 1 week (on a low flame), (e) 1 hour.

    Answer below.

    Ans. imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever.

    Read More
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  45. unit472 says:
    @Steve Sailer
    That's what Emily Bazelon of the Yale Law School asked in 2009 in Slate. I asked in response whether she had any career advantages in law in being the granddaughter of David Bazelon, chief judge of the first district court of appeal and Supreme Court justice William Brennan's best friend.

    I don’t think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law. As I recall the former lead guitar player for Country Joe and the Fish, Barry Melton became an attorney after passing the California State Bar exam.

    (To be certain I checked his Wiki bio and it seems Melton did sign up for classes with the original ‘tear the cover off the matchbook ‘ correspondence school, LaSalle University, but I doubt if the ‘law school’ was accredited)

    Read More
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    I don’t think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law.
     
    I don't know how it works in Britain anymore, but the principal requirement of at least one of the four prestigious Inns of Court in London, their equivalent of law school, used to be that the aspiring law student show up for at least 24 dinners at the dining chambers, and acquit himself well in dinnertime conversation with senior legal worthies. Hitting the books was not to be spoken of, and done in one's private time, or not at all, presumably.

    As far as I know, this system continued through the first half of the twentieth century and, as we know, there has, of course, been no dearth of brilliant legal minds in the UK.

    But then, back in those days, Britain had unsparing standards in high school, and boys were expected to finish school at the age of eighteen being able to write with flair, and speak, debate and think with great facility.

    That particular culture is dying out, but I do remember when I was hired into a British bank in the late 1980s, I was astonished that some members of the senior management team—all polished, intelligent and capable men— had only high school educations and yet had been directly hired into the bank's A-track career program.

    , @Bill
    Here is an article. Most states require a JD from an accredited law school. A few permit something like the old apprenticeship system. CA is one of the states which permits the apprenticeship method. However, it sounds quite onerous on the lawyer or judge running the apprenticeship.

    Professions with state licensing requirements generally require some kind of degree from an accredited school and a "paper and pencil" test. There are sometimes weird grandfathered exceptions, but these are usually impractical for one reason or another.

    Assuming I understand what he is saying (this is a strong assumption), this article says there were 64 people practicing law in CA who went through the apprenticeship system there.

    CA is kind of interesting. Formally, you don't even need a college degree to practice law. You can take a test, the CLEP, to exempt the requirement to get a college degree. Then you can apprentice with a judge or lawyer and pass both the baby bar and the bar exam. I'm too lazy to figure out what the requirements are to sit for the CLEP, but if a GED is as good as a high school degree for that, then I suppose a high school dropout could theoretically practice law in CA.
    , @carol
    Calif was kind of different, at least in the 80s when I looked into it. I think you had to have 2 years of undergrad, is all.. then the bar exam. So there were a lot of fly by night law schools that taught to the test, and a low pass rate.
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  46. @Triumph104
    Tiger Mom's daughter Sophia has been accepted to Yale Law School. Did the fact that both of her parents are famous Yale law professors play a role in her acceptance? We'll never know.

    When Neil deGrasse Tyson's daughter was asked if having a famous father had anything to do with her getting into Harvard, his alma mater, she replied: "It would be ignorant of me to claim that my relationship to my dad had nothing to do with my admission to Harvard. That being said, Harvard is not a school that would blindly accept a student based on the merit of his or her parent. It is not out of "luck" that I got in. I have worked very hard over the past few years, and Harvard recognized that. I like to believe my own merit supported me more than my dad's did. But if that isn't true, I now have the opportunity to prove to Harvard that I was the right choice. And I intend to take it."

    Neil deGrasse Tyson’s wife, Alice Young, is white, of course.

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  47. @Discard
    I have read that firemen have far fewer fires to deal with than in times past. Smoke alarms, automatic sprinklers, OSHA regulations, etc, have made fires less common and less destructive. When it's time to run into the burning building and pull the children out, they have to earn their keep, but you can be a dummy or a weakling and get by for a longer time than was possible decades ago.

    About 80% of firefighting calls are EMT-related. Only 20% involve fighting actual fires.

    EMT calls still require a high degree of competence. However, firefighting departments get huge numbers of applications and hire the top 1-2%. So even if they hire minorities/women due to AA, they can get fairly competent people. Just not quite as competent as they would if there was no AA.

    Firefighting is still 95% white as a profession. As it changes and becomes more diverse due to AA, perhaps competency will fall.

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    • Replies: @Discard
    Perhaps?

    Years ago, the ex-leftist David Horowitz wrote about AA in the San Francisco FD in his magazine "Heterodoxy". AA is all about lowering standards. Dumb, dead Black firemen and weak, crying firewomen. All at the behest of a female non-White Jimmy Carter-appointed judge.
    , @TWS
    And it doesn't matter if the EMT's refuse to lift because they simply can't. I responded to a call with an all female crew. All of them refused to lift the victim because she was too big. So me (a cop) and some nearby coast guard guys lifted the woman to the ambulance. If we had not been there the EMTs would have let her die.

    So it does matter whether or not the AA hires can actually do the job.
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  48. gda says:
    @Yak-15
    I admire La Grife but I still find it hard to believe his Hispanic and crime hypothesis.

    Moi aussi. It’s almost as if someone impersonating La Griffe had suddenly captured his website and was writing crazy stuff. Quite bizarre. Of course others may have their own nefarious theories….

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  49. wren says:

    It’s a good thing that other public safety professions, such as air traffic controllers, still value intelligence and skill over skin color.

    Oh, wait.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/affirmative-action-lands-in-the-air-traffic-control-tower-1433283292

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    • Replies: @wren
    Not behind a firewall:

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2015/05/20/trouble-in-skies.html
    , @Forbes
    Not behind firewall link. Good for about a week.

    http:/on.wsj.com/1LNoU18
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  50. @pyrrhus
    Not any more, not if you're a minority or female....

    It’s actually still pretty hard even then. The difference is that it’s much tougher to be in the top 1-2% of white male applicants than in the top 1-2% of women/NAM applicants.

    You have to be decently competent to get hired in to a lot of departments. Not sure about FDNY, as I never tested there.

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  51. @Jimi
    I suspect elite judges think a fireman's job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose.

    In NYC you you have 150 year old rotten wood death traps standing side by side with new sprinklered buildings that compartmentalize to prevent the spread of fire. And all the buildings that come in between with varying degrees of safety. Firefighters need to know all types of building and their particular weaknesses and strengths.

    Check out this introductory manual designed to teach NYC firemen the differences:

    http://home.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/training/pdf/proby_manual/09_building_descriptions.pdf

    You don't need to be a genius to figure this stuff out but you need to have a certain level of intelligence and diligence.

    FF can be fairly technical. They offer Masters degrees in Fire Science and Fire Protection Engineering. It’s not just point a hose and spray. If judges believe that, they’re wrong.

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    • Replies: @Jimi
    I suspect they do believe that.

    LSAT entrance exam for law schools and the bar exam to practice law also have disparate impact on black and latinos but no judge is striking down those practices.

    Presumably because they feel it is justifiable to select for intelligence in practice of law, not justifiable to do so for firefighting.
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  52. @TrumpMonster
    Except that these jobs don't really exist (better buildings,materials, education,prevention, etc municipal cut backs because of the aforementioned) unless you fill a quota. If you don't fit the quota it s because you were hired years ago. Thus when that tier retires we an entire department full shit tier hires. It's why these tests matter, God help us.

    Over time, attrition and AA will lower the quality of fire fighters. No doubt on that. The applicant pool is large enough that even the hired minorities are generally competent to an extent. Just not as competent as non-AA white males. In a life and death situation, I want the most qualified person on the job.

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  53. wren says:
    @wren
    It's a good thing that other public safety professions, such as air traffic controllers, still value intelligence and skill over skin color.

    Oh, wait.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/affirmative-action-lands-in-the-air-traffic-control-tower-1433283292
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  54. LKM says:

    The Vulcan Society sounds like some sort of secret group dedicated to pulling the levers behind the scenes so as to guide humanity away from ignorance, not a club devoted to making NY firefighters dumber.

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    If you're dumb, you can't tell the difference.
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  55. @The most deplorable one
    I think New York City deserves all the diversity it is going to get, good and hard.

    FDNY actually fiercely resisted for a very long time. The overwhelming majority of already hired FFs are still white males. It was the courts that forced them to change.

    The Italians and Irish in FDNY have a lot of fight. They never wanted AA in hiring. It was forced on their dept.

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    • Replies: @Discard
    New York is special. They got away with the "Stop and frisk" policy of open harassment of dark people for years. I think it was Steve Sailer who said that the Masters of WallStreet might be isolated from street crime, but they were not going to let their underlings get robbed and raped. I don't think they care to be burned alive either.
    , @Hhsiii
    The City resisted the change, as did the departments themselves. Although that was the prior administration. The judge is a federal appointee. Who also just commuted the death sentence of a cop killer, but only after the original sentence was overturned on appeal.
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  56. @AnonAnon
    You need to add a seventh bullet point: You'll score a hot wife.

    There are a number of firefighters in my Orange County neighborhood and all of them have very nice looking (my husband says hot) stay at home wives who have large rocks on their fingers and live in pricier homes than mine.

    Definitely.

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  57. @Big Bill

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.
     
    Only if you are in a rich white city: one in which the NAM tax burden +public payroll + pensions is not crushing, like Chicago or Detroit.

    Not Fresno or Newark or Baltimore or any of the dozens of cities and counties that have lost their tax base and borrow money they can never pay back.

    Preferably a banksta city like New York that can collect as much money from the elite as necessary to pay salaries and FD pensions (and who in turn extract THEIR wealth from pension funds and working stiffs in the rest of the country).

    Good point. Cities like Seattle, Portland, NYC, San Jose, San Francisco, etc. Cities with lots of high-earning taxpayers and responsible govts. If you retire in a city with financial problems, they could cut your pension.

    Firefighters get to retire after 20 years, at 50% of their highest base salary. So if you start at age 22 and earn 90K/yr (at your peak earnings), you can retire at age 42 and collect 45K/yr for the rest of your life. If you want, you can get hired into another department. Then once you hit 62, you theoretically be taking 90K/yr in pension (45K+45K).

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    • Replies: @Sparkling Wiggle
    Few, if any of those pension funds are solvent. Even in wealthy, white places. Their actuaries have to project 12% annual returns in order to get them to look solvent.
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  58. @anon
    My relative has tried out several times for the fire department. He graduated from a ten month long course on firefighting that cost him about 16K. One thing that he told me really struck me. The male testers have to drag a dummy 100 yards weighing 180 pounds. But the female testers only have to drag a dummy weighing 120 pounds. When I asked one of his instructors what would happen in real life if a female firefighter had to drag a 180 pound person out, I was just met with embarrassing silence.

    It’s really tough to get hired in large-city FF depts. When I took my last test, there were 7,000 applicants for less than 200 jobs. Not surprisingly, I didn’t get hired.

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Well... I'm not surprised...

    just kidding!!

    ; D
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  59. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    My relative has tried out several times for the fire department. He graduated from a ten month long course on firefighting that cost him about 16K. One thing that he told me really struck me. The male testers have to drag a dummy 100 yards weighing 180 pounds. But the female testers only have to drag a dummy weighing 120 pounds. When I asked one of his instructors what would happen in real life if a female firefighter had to drag a 180 pound person out, I was just met with embarrassing silence.

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  60. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “Firefighter Harris ate one cup of Fruit & Nut Trail Mix. What percentage of Saturated Fat did she have?”

    OMG those darned hidden calories in the trail mix!
    How can Firefightress Harris watch her figure when she has all those fires to watch?

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  61. Trelane says:

    And did any of you ever see this (even though I posted it months ago):

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    • Replies: @22pp22
    I saw your post and enjoyed it.
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  62. Olorin says:
    @Triumph104
    Tiger Mom's daughter Sophia has been accepted to Yale Law School. Did the fact that both of her parents are famous Yale law professors play a role in her acceptance? We'll never know.

    When Neil deGrasse Tyson's daughter was asked if having a famous father had anything to do with her getting into Harvard, his alma mater, she replied: "It would be ignorant of me to claim that my relationship to my dad had nothing to do with my admission to Harvard. That being said, Harvard is not a school that would blindly accept a student based on the merit of his or her parent. It is not out of "luck" that I got in. I have worked very hard over the past few years, and Harvard recognized that. I like to believe my own merit supported me more than my dad's did. But if that isn't true, I now have the opportunity to prove to Harvard that I was the right choice. And I intend to take it."

    Remember that Tyson miraculously got into Harvard’s Ph.D. after flunking out of UT-Austin (but still getting a master’s). The Princeton post-doc followed, then the headship of the Hayden.

    His daughter got into Harvard because his father was Cyril de Grasse Tyson, a big mahoff in NYC civil rights in the early years (HARYOU, later 100 Black Men). Anybody else who had a son who flunked out of astrophysics at UT would have had to go drive a cab or something.

    Sean Davis at The Federalist has written some good pieces on the fraudulence of Tyson fils.

    http://thefederalist.com/tag/neil-degrasse-tyson/

    Tyson, the “public face of science.”

    http://alcalde.texasexes.org/2012/02/star-power/

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/1683635/a-tale-of-two-icons-when-john-lewis-met-neil-degrasse-tyson-at-comic-con

    But it all flowed out of creating an artificial black elite. Intelligence, accomplishment not needed. Just the proper concatenation of significances.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    “Has Tyson done any real science? He seems to be a media celebrity, but when I look in the Smithsonian/NASA ADS, I can find no record of scholarly work in science, except for popular books and social commentary. Is he in fact a practicing astrophysicist?"

    Not since graduate school (he did not successfully progress towards a degree at UT/Austin, and convinced Columbia to give him a second try). Aside from the obligatory papers describing his dissertation, he’s got a paper on how to take dome flats, a bizarre paper speculating about an asteroid hitting Uranus, and courtesy mentions *very* late in the author lists of a few big projects in which it is unclear what, if anything, of substance he contributed. No first author papers of any real significance whatsoever. Nor is there any evidence that he has been awarded any telescope time on significant instruments as PI since grad school, despite the incredibly inflated claims in his published CVs. He cozied up to Bush and pushed Bush’s version of man to the Moon, Mars, and Beyond, and now gets appointed to just about every high level political advisory board. To an actual astronomer, this is almost beyond inconceivable. It’s just bizarre. To answer Delong’s question, no: he is not a practicing astrophysicist. – Don Barry, Ph.D. Dept. of Astronomy, Cornell University
     
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  63. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Olorin
    Remember that Tyson miraculously got into Harvard's Ph.D. after flunking out of UT-Austin (but still getting a master's). The Princeton post-doc followed, then the headship of the Hayden.

    His daughter got into Harvard because his father was Cyril de Grasse Tyson, a big mahoff in NYC civil rights in the early years (HARYOU, later 100 Black Men). Anybody else who had a son who flunked out of astrophysics at UT would have had to go drive a cab or something.

    Sean Davis at The Federalist has written some good pieces on the fraudulence of Tyson fils.

    http://thefederalist.com/tag/neil-degrasse-tyson/

    Tyson, the "public face of science."

    http://alcalde.texasexes.org/2012/02/star-power/

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/1683635/a-tale-of-two-icons-when-john-lewis-met-neil-degrasse-tyson-at-comic-con

    But it all flowed out of creating an artificial black elite. Intelligence, accomplishment not needed. Just the proper concatenation of significances.

    “Has Tyson done any real science? He seems to be a media celebrity, but when I look in the Smithsonian/NASA ADS, I can find no record of scholarly work in science, except for popular books and social commentary. Is he in fact a practicing astrophysicist?”

    Not since graduate school (he did not successfully progress towards a degree at UT/Austin, and convinced Columbia to give him a second try). Aside from the obligatory papers describing his dissertation, he’s got a paper on how to take dome flats, a bizarre paper speculating about an asteroid hitting Uranus, and courtesy mentions *very* late in the author lists of a few big projects in which it is unclear what, if anything, of substance he contributed. No first author papers of any real significance whatsoever. Nor is there any evidence that he has been awarded any telescope time on significant instruments as PI since grad school, despite the incredibly inflated claims in his published CVs. He cozied up to Bush and pushed Bush’s version of man to the Moon, Mars, and Beyond, and now gets appointed to just about every high level political advisory board. To an actual astronomer, this is almost beyond inconceivable. It’s just bizarre. To answer Delong’s question, no: he is not a practicing astrophysicist. – Don Barry, Ph.D. Dept. of Astronomy, Cornell University

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I guess he may have the competence of a high school physics teacher or something.
    , @guest
    What does "did not successfully progress towards a degree" mean? Either he dropped out or he flunked out. Why would he drop out if he went on to get degrees elsewhere? Isn't the usual process to transfer or get the degree and move on to greener pastures. If your goal is to be a PHD, that is. I suppose he could have decided to do something else in the meantime, then returned to get the degrees. But it sounds like he flunked out.
    , @Anonymous
    At the moment I'm taking Dr. Barry's assessment with a grain of salt. Looks like Tyson's authored 5 papers as well as co-authored a lot more: http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/curriculum-vitae#research

    I'm not completely sympathetic to Neil deGrasse Tyson. I'm compiling my own list of Tyson errors: http://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-degrasse-tyson.html

    But if I talk smack about him, I want it to be well documented smack, not just hear say.

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  64. Anonym says:
    @Steve Sailer
    That's what Emily Bazelon of the Yale Law School asked in 2009 in Slate. I asked in response whether she had any career advantages in law in being the granddaughter of David Bazelon, chief judge of the first district court of appeal and Supreme Court justice William Brennan's best friend.

    And how did she answer?

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  65. @JohnnyWalker123
    By the way, let me repeat a comment I made a few months ago.

    Being a large-city firefighter is a good deal.

    1. Typically the base salary for large-city staff FFers (attained after a few years) is in the 90-100K range. Very good benefits, strong union, and lots of vacation too.
    2. They work a one-day on, two-day off schedule. Some work two-days on, four-days off schedule. So lots of time for hobbies, relaxing, partying, starting your own band, getting a side job, etc. Even when they’re on the job, there’s a lot of downtime and fairly low stress.
    3. Very generous pension (50% of peak salary after 20 years on the force). Lots of fire fighters even “double dip” by getting a 50K/yr pension and working a second job.
    4. Very strong job security. Rare for there to be layoffs.
    5. If you test well, you can test up into senior level positions. Some of the higher-ups in the organizations actually have considerable prestige in their local city govts.
    6. For a kid who can’t enter an elite career track (finance, law, medicine, consulting) and doesn’t want to go the entrepreneurship route, climbing the ranks of a FF department can be a good option to attain prestige and power. The competition is less fierce too.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    An equally good job is one as a New York State highway trooper. The salaries are even higher- apparently about $120k to start with and rising to the $180k range, with considerable overtime potential and a pension deal similar to FDNY. Plus, unlike the New York City firefighters, you are likely to luck out and live in a low cost, scenic location somewhere upstate. I’m told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. Also, my source tells me, there are only a handful of similar police gigs around the country. For what it’s worth…

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    • Replies: @Discard
    I have read that 80% of retired California Highway Patrolmen collect disability pensions. Something to do with the seat belts disturbing their donut bellies.
    , @utu
    "I’m told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. " - in Canada and UK you have to belong to some masonic orders to make it in police.
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  66. Anonym says:

    Now, the FDNY has finally learned the lesson that La Griffe du Lion pointed out years ago: If you want to please the feds, you can minimize disparate impact (percentage point differential) of the hiring test by making it extremely easy, then hiring randomly.

    That may be the case, but this is a good way to hire incompetent firefighters. This will result in more deaths and injuries from fires, more out of control fires, more damage from fire, more injured/killed firefighters, more government funds wasted because of incompetent actions. Is this acceptable?

    The question that needs to be asked is… in which occupations should society place people of different IQ levels? What is an optimal allocation of the IQ strata in our society? I don’t know too many jobs where someone very competent cannot do a much better job than a dunce. e.g. If you restrict your high IQ people from entering the police force, their top level people will perform more poorly… giving someone a higher rank does not increase their IQ. Is a society where smart criminals routinely bypass the law a good outcome? Is the allocation of high IQ people into things like investment banking, hedge funds or law a good thing?

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    There was a cop applicant who was rejected for having too high of an IQ: http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    I can assure you that they don't hire randomly. FF depts know what they're doing and tend to hire the best of the applicant pool.

    The problem is that even if you hire the best minorities, there's still a considerable gap between white males and everyone else. That means less competent FFs, which makes a difference in life/death situations.

    It's not so much that the minority/female FF hires are poor. It's that there are some exemplary A+ white hires who get passed over for for B minority/female hires. You've got to ask if you want the A+ FF in an emegency or the B FF.
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  67. @unit472
    I don't think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law. As I recall the former lead guitar player for Country Joe and the Fish, Barry Melton became an attorney after passing the California State Bar exam.

    (To be certain I checked his Wiki bio and it seems Melton did sign up for classes with the original 'tear the cover off the matchbook ' correspondence school, LaSalle University, but I doubt if the 'law school' was accredited)

    I don’t think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law.

    I don’t know how it works in Britain anymore, but the principal requirement of at least one of the four prestigious Inns of Court in London, their equivalent of law school, used to be that the aspiring law student show up for at least 24 dinners at the dining chambers, and acquit himself well in dinnertime conversation with senior legal worthies. Hitting the books was not to be spoken of, and done in one’s private time, or not at all, presumably.

    As far as I know, this system continued through the first half of the twentieth century and, as we know, there has, of course, been no dearth of brilliant legal minds in the UK.

    But then, back in those days, Britain had unsparing standards in high school, and boys were expected to finish school at the age of eighteen being able to write with flair, and speak, debate and think with great facility.

    That particular culture is dying out, but I do remember when I was hired into a British bank in the late 1980s, I was astonished that some members of the senior management team—all polished, intelligent and capable men— had only high school educations and yet had been directly hired into the bank’s A-track career program.

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    • Replies: @tris
    "But then, back in those days, Britain had unsparing standards in high school, and boys were expected to finish school at the age of eighteen being able to write with flair, and speak, debate and think with great facility."

    Generally the population was much more behaved back then, so the court workload was probs much lower. Nowadays we have an undisciplined and dysfunctional underclass, thieving elites, and foreign organised crime/terror syndicates. You'd expect the courts to be stacked with specialists in order to deal with this barrage of crime, yet the people who caused it have populated the courts, the result being that the criminals are walking the streets.
    , @The Man From K Street

    I do remember when I was hired into a British bank in the late 1980s, I was astonished that some members of the senior management team—all polished, intelligent and capable men— had only high school educations and yet had been directly hired into the bank’s A-track career program.
     
    That was the way it was originally in the Canadian banking system as well--the late Peter Jennings of ABC News used to tell of how, since he came from a respectable Toronto family but was not himself really college material (in fact he dropped out of the 10th grade), he was encouraged to take an entry-level job with the Royal Bank of Canada, with every expectation that he had an eventual shot at upper management despite his lack of education. Finance, in the Commonwealth countries, historically simply was not seen as an "academic" field.

    Oh, and that "dumb" Canadian banking culture, as David Frum would be happy to tell you, was ruthlessly realistic in its mortgage lending standards into this century. As Orwell said, some things are so stupid only an intellectual can believe in them.
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  68. Discard says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    About 80% of firefighting calls are EMT-related. Only 20% involve fighting actual fires.

    EMT calls still require a high degree of competence. However, firefighting departments get huge numbers of applications and hire the top 1-2%. So even if they hire minorities/women due to AA, they can get fairly competent people. Just not quite as competent as they would if there was no AA.

    Firefighting is still 95% white as a profession. As it changes and becomes more diverse due to AA, perhaps competency will fall.

    Perhaps?

    Years ago, the ex-leftist David Horowitz wrote about AA in the San Francisco FD in his magazine “Heterodoxy”. AA is all about lowering standards. Dumb, dead Black firemen and weak, crying firewomen. All at the behest of a female non-White Jimmy Carter-appointed judge.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Well, it depends. If the white male FFs are still there in large numbers, maybe they can pick up the slack. Maybe.

    Also, the women/minority applicants aren't that incompetent. The question is how much the FF service suffers when you substitute a B woman/minority for a white A+ applicant.
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  69. Discard says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    FDNY actually fiercely resisted for a very long time. The overwhelming majority of already hired FFs are still white males. It was the courts that forced them to change.

    The Italians and Irish in FDNY have a lot of fight. They never wanted AA in hiring. It was forced on their dept.

    New York is special. They got away with the “Stop and frisk” policy of open harassment of dark people for years. I think it was Steve Sailer who said that the Masters of WallStreet might be isolated from street crime, but they were not going to let their underlings get robbed and raped. I don’t think they care to be burned alive either.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    I also think the presence of lots of Italians and Irish makes a difference. They tend to be much "meaner" than whites in other parts of the country. They're not much into the idea of white guilt. They fought neighborhood integration and busing much harder than whites in other parts of the country. As recently as the 80s, the east coast had overwhelmingly white housing projects.

    Of course, these days, their ethnic solidarity and clout isn't quite what it used to be.
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  70. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonym
    Now, the FDNY has finally learned the lesson that La Griffe du Lion pointed out years ago: If you want to please the feds, you can minimize disparate impact (percentage point differential) of the hiring test by making it extremely easy, then hiring randomly.

    That may be the case, but this is a good way to hire incompetent firefighters. This will result in more deaths and injuries from fires, more out of control fires, more damage from fire, more injured/killed firefighters, more government funds wasted because of incompetent actions. Is this acceptable?

    The question that needs to be asked is... in which occupations should society place people of different IQ levels? What is an optimal allocation of the IQ strata in our society? I don't know too many jobs where someone very competent cannot do a much better job than a dunce. e.g. If you restrict your high IQ people from entering the police force, their top level people will perform more poorly... giving someone a higher rank does not increase their IQ. Is a society where smart criminals routinely bypass the law a good outcome? Is the allocation of high IQ people into things like investment banking, hedge funds or law a good thing?

    There was a cop applicant who was rejected for having too high of an IQ: http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    The article about the PD applicant who was too smart (125 IQ is "too smart", LOL) was referenced several times here so I checked it out. First point: this is a resolution of a twenty year old case. Second, applicant has spent the last 20 years as a prison guard (apparently he seems happy with his job, not bored at all.) I'd say New London's policy is wrong, or, if the idea is sound, it is at least one standard deviation too low what it should be.
    , @Area Man
    Higher IQ police officers have been a boon in the past. From page 87 of the Bell Curve (via http://www.vdare.com/posts/quote-of-the-daychoosing-police-applicants-by-iq):

    A case study of what happens when a public service is able to hire from the top down on a test of cognitive ability, drawing on a large applicant pool, comes out of New York City. In April 1939, after a decade of economic depression, New York City attracted almost 30,000 men to a written and physical examination for 300 openings in the city’s police force, a selection ratio of approximately one in a hundred: [Herrnstein, R. J., Belke, T., and Taylor, J. 1990. New York City Police Dept. Class of June 1940: A Preliminary Report. Harvard University. Photocopy.]

    The written test was similar to the intelligence test then being given by the federal civil service. Positions were offered top down for a composite score on the mental and physical tests, with the mental test more heavily weighted by more than two to one.

    Not everyone accepted the offer, but, times being what they were, the 300 slots were filled by men who earned the top 350 scores.

    Inasmuch as the performance of police officers has been shown to correlate significantly with scores on intelligence tests, [Hunter, J. E. 1979. An Analysis of Validity, Differential Validity, Test Fairness, and Utility for the Philadelphia Police Officers Selection Examination Prepared by the Educational Testing Service. Report to the Philadelphia Federal District Court, Alvarez v. City of Philadelphia] this group of men should have made outstanding policemen.

    And they did, achieving extraordinarily successful careers in and out of policing. They attained far higher than average rank as police officers. Of the entire group, four have been police chiefs, four deputy commissioners, two chiefs of personnel, one a chief inspector, and one became commissioner of the New York Police Department.

    They suffered far fewer disciplinary penalties, and they contributed significantly to the study and teaching of policing and law enforcement. Many also had successful careers as lawyers, businessmen, and academics after leaving the police department
     
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  71. maybe a IQ test would be best anyway, this would as well as this test have nothing specifically to do with fire fighting. but of course any test with a to high pass rate is useless

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  72. Discard says:
    @PiltdownMan
    An equally good job is one as a New York State highway trooper. The salaries are even higher- apparently about $120k to start with and rising to the $180k range, with considerable overtime potential and a pension deal similar to FDNY. Plus, unlike the New York City firefighters, you are likely to luck out and live in a low cost, scenic location somewhere upstate. I'm told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. Also, my source tells me, there are only a handful of similar police gigs around the country. For what it's worth...

    I have read that 80% of retired California Highway Patrolmen collect disability pensions. Something to do with the seat belts disturbing their donut bellies.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    In that case, truckers ought to have the same medical issues, but I've never heard of them having any "seat belts disturbing their donut bellies" problems. The disabilities probably have to do with 40 years of having to get into sudden fights with violent criminals.

    Your anti-cop remark makes you sound like someone who's had a run-in with the police recently. What did you do?
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  73. @LKM
    The Vulcan Society sounds like some sort of secret group dedicated to pulling the levers behind the scenes so as to guide humanity away from ignorance, not a club devoted to making NY firefighters dumber.

    If you’re dumb, you can’t tell the difference.

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  74. @JohnnyWalker123
    It's really tough to get hired in large-city FF depts. When I took my last test, there were 7,000 applicants for less than 200 jobs. Not surprisingly, I didn't get hired.

    Well… I’m not surprised…

    just kidding!!

    ; D

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Haha.

    When I walked in for the test and observed there were thousands of people there, I realized it wasn't happening. I made it to the orals for that last dept, but it didn't go further than that.

    Oh well.
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  75. Hhsiii says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    FDNY actually fiercely resisted for a very long time. The overwhelming majority of already hired FFs are still white males. It was the courts that forced them to change.

    The Italians and Irish in FDNY have a lot of fight. They never wanted AA in hiring. It was forced on their dept.

    The City resisted the change, as did the departments themselves. Although that was the prior administration. The judge is a federal appointee. Who also just commuted the death sentence of a cop killer, but only after the original sentence was overturned on appeal.

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  76. Dr. X says:
    @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    a Democratic judge ruled the test devised by the city of New York was racially/ethnically biased because it presented readings on fire safety and then asked hard questions, such as: what kind of chainsaw should you use to cut through a steel door?

    According to the article, knowledge of firefighting was not so much the issue as being able to acquire that knowledge via reading comprehension. Of course you cannot be expected to have a priori knowledge of a subject you are going to be trained in, but you need to have the ability to comprehend the upcoming training.

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    • Replies: @guest
    "Of course you cannot be expected to have a priori knowledge of a subject you are going to be trained in"

    Of course you can.
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  77. @Anonymous

    “Has Tyson done any real science? He seems to be a media celebrity, but when I look in the Smithsonian/NASA ADS, I can find no record of scholarly work in science, except for popular books and social commentary. Is he in fact a practicing astrophysicist?"

    Not since graduate school (he did not successfully progress towards a degree at UT/Austin, and convinced Columbia to give him a second try). Aside from the obligatory papers describing his dissertation, he’s got a paper on how to take dome flats, a bizarre paper speculating about an asteroid hitting Uranus, and courtesy mentions *very* late in the author lists of a few big projects in which it is unclear what, if anything, of substance he contributed. No first author papers of any real significance whatsoever. Nor is there any evidence that he has been awarded any telescope time on significant instruments as PI since grad school, despite the incredibly inflated claims in his published CVs. He cozied up to Bush and pushed Bush’s version of man to the Moon, Mars, and Beyond, and now gets appointed to just about every high level political advisory board. To an actual astronomer, this is almost beyond inconceivable. It’s just bizarre. To answer Delong’s question, no: he is not a practicing astrophysicist. – Don Barry, Ph.D. Dept. of Astronomy, Cornell University
     

    I guess he may have the competence of a high school physics teacher or something.

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  78. 22pp22 says:

    This is completely off topic, but may be relevant to the Saileresque concept of citizenism.

    NZ has just voted on whether to ditch the old colonial era flag and replace it with one reflecting “diversity” and New Zealand’s “Asia-Pacific identity”.

    http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/flag-referendum-results

    57% voted to keep the old flag. 7 electorates didn’t and they are all white and wealthy and NOT liberal (Clutha-Southland and Selwyn). Poorer whites, students and Maori voted to keep the old flag (Northland and the West Coast of the South Island together with Dunedin and Palmerston North, which are both university towns).

    The commentariat was overwhelmingly in favour of change.

    Maori can choose to vote in the same electorates as everyone else or for electorates specifically reserved for people who can prove Maori ancestry.

    The Maori constituencies were the ones that voted most strongly to keep the old flag.

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    • Replies: @tris
    that guilty conscience kicking in. many wealthy (european) western elites feel bad about being better of than the miserables they drive past daily in the streets. its a holdover from the era when Christianity was pervasive in Western society. in Christianity the solution to that problem would be to help the poor and share your wealth. but elites don't like that idea. so instead they go about doing symbolic things which cost them personally nothing, ensure that they stay rich, and which cock up the countries in which the poor are trying to get a break. societies with other religious fabrics (such as Islam, Judaism, Buddism) don't have that problem coz being wealthy and having power over others is not considered something precarious, as it is in Christianity, but rather something to strive for and relish in.
    , @SPMoore8
    I would think that keeping the Union Jack in the upper left corner (old flag) would be a prestige matter; the new flag doesn't really reflect NZ historical roots as a former British holding. I mean, I doubt if the Maoris consider New Guinea to be on the same page as they are.

    It's not surprising either that most native societies wherever you are tend to be heavily tradition based, and therefore avoiding change. People who are always going for change tend to be rootless upper bourgeois.
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  79. Ed says:
    @Triumph104
    Tiger Mom's daughter Sophia has been accepted to Yale Law School. Did the fact that both of her parents are famous Yale law professors play a role in her acceptance? We'll never know.

    When Neil deGrasse Tyson's daughter was asked if having a famous father had anything to do with her getting into Harvard, his alma mater, she replied: "It would be ignorant of me to claim that my relationship to my dad had nothing to do with my admission to Harvard. That being said, Harvard is not a school that would blindly accept a student based on the merit of his or her parent. It is not out of "luck" that I got in. I have worked very hard over the past few years, and Harvard recognized that. I like to believe my own merit supported me more than my dad's did. But if that isn't true, I now have the opportunity to prove to Harvard that I was the right choice. And I intend to take it."

    Tyson’s daughter sounds like she’s Harvard material, great response.

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  80. SteveM says:

    Yeah, well it’s also what goes around comes around.

    The Ivy League sets aside 20% of its admit class for alumni legacies. In that context the SAT is the FDNY entry examine and those legacies didn’t make the cut.

    The disparate impact there is on applicants whose parents didn’t shovel a university tens of thousands to grease their mediocre kid in.

    If you want to swing a 2×4 at “affirmative action”, swing it in all directions.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    10's of thousands for Ivy League? Think again. From iSteve May 1, 2010.

    "The Harvard Number is the amount of money Harvard would want as a donation for accepting your kid as an undergraduate. It's not the kind of information they post on their website. You have to ask the right people in the right manner.

    He said he just found out that the current Harvard Number -- assuming your kid's application was "competitive" (i.e., there's some chance your kid would get in even if you didn't write a check) -- is $5 million.

    If your kid's "not competitive," then it is $10 million"
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  81. tris says:
    @22pp22
    This is completely off topic, but may be relevant to the Saileresque concept of citizenism.

    NZ has just voted on whether to ditch the old colonial era flag and replace it with one reflecting "diversity" and New Zealand's "Asia-Pacific identity".

    http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/flag-referendum-results

    57% voted to keep the old flag. 7 electorates didn't and they are all white and wealthy and NOT liberal (Clutha-Southland and Selwyn). Poorer whites, students and Maori voted to keep the old flag (Northland and the West Coast of the South Island together with Dunedin and Palmerston North, which are both university towns).

    The commentariat was overwhelmingly in favour of change.

    Maori can choose to vote in the same electorates as everyone else or for electorates specifically reserved for people who can prove Maori ancestry.

    The Maori constituencies were the ones that voted most strongly to keep the old flag.

    that guilty conscience kicking in. many wealthy (european) western elites feel bad about being better of than the miserables they drive past daily in the streets. its a holdover from the era when Christianity was pervasive in Western society. in Christianity the solution to that problem would be to help the poor and share your wealth. but elites don’t like that idea. so instead they go about doing symbolic things which cost them personally nothing, ensure that they stay rich, and which cock up the countries in which the poor are trying to get a break. societies with other religious fabrics (such as Islam, Judaism, Buddism) don’t have that problem coz being wealthy and having power over others is not considered something precarious, as it is in Christianity, but rather something to strive for and relish in.

    Read More
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  82. george says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments
     
    Let us agree that you and your property will be serviced exclusively by those who are not children of firefighters and have no experience with volunteer fire departments. And those neophytes can earn their on-the-job training at your expense. How about it george? After all, how bad can third-degree burns and the needless loss of your family members be in the face of you doing this for the 'greater good'?

    NY City does not have a volunteer fire department, so that means they have to drawn candidates from exclusively outside New York City. I dont see the city doing that. Why allow any business to hire outside the children of current employees.

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  83. tris says:
    @PiltdownMan

    I don’t think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law.
     
    I don't know how it works in Britain anymore, but the principal requirement of at least one of the four prestigious Inns of Court in London, their equivalent of law school, used to be that the aspiring law student show up for at least 24 dinners at the dining chambers, and acquit himself well in dinnertime conversation with senior legal worthies. Hitting the books was not to be spoken of, and done in one's private time, or not at all, presumably.

    As far as I know, this system continued through the first half of the twentieth century and, as we know, there has, of course, been no dearth of brilliant legal minds in the UK.

    But then, back in those days, Britain had unsparing standards in high school, and boys were expected to finish school at the age of eighteen being able to write with flair, and speak, debate and think with great facility.

    That particular culture is dying out, but I do remember when I was hired into a British bank in the late 1980s, I was astonished that some members of the senior management team—all polished, intelligent and capable men— had only high school educations and yet had been directly hired into the bank's A-track career program.

    “But then, back in those days, Britain had unsparing standards in high school, and boys were expected to finish school at the age of eighteen being able to write with flair, and speak, debate and think with great facility.”

    Generally the population was much more behaved back then, so the court workload was probs much lower. Nowadays we have an undisciplined and dysfunctional underclass, thieving elites, and foreign organised crime/terror syndicates. You’d expect the courts to be stacked with specialists in order to deal with this barrage of crime, yet the people who caused it have populated the courts, the result being that the criminals are walking the streets.

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  84. SPMoore8 says:
    @22pp22
    This is completely off topic, but may be relevant to the Saileresque concept of citizenism.

    NZ has just voted on whether to ditch the old colonial era flag and replace it with one reflecting "diversity" and New Zealand's "Asia-Pacific identity".

    http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/flag-referendum-results

    57% voted to keep the old flag. 7 electorates didn't and they are all white and wealthy and NOT liberal (Clutha-Southland and Selwyn). Poorer whites, students and Maori voted to keep the old flag (Northland and the West Coast of the South Island together with Dunedin and Palmerston North, which are both university towns).

    The commentariat was overwhelmingly in favour of change.

    Maori can choose to vote in the same electorates as everyone else or for electorates specifically reserved for people who can prove Maori ancestry.

    The Maori constituencies were the ones that voted most strongly to keep the old flag.

    I would think that keeping the Union Jack in the upper left corner (old flag) would be a prestige matter; the new flag doesn’t really reflect NZ historical roots as a former British holding. I mean, I doubt if the Maoris consider New Guinea to be on the same page as they are.

    It’s not surprising either that most native societies wherever you are tend to be heavily tradition based, and therefore avoiding change. People who are always going for change tend to be rootless upper bourgeois.

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  85. SPMoore8 says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    There was a cop applicant who was rejected for having too high of an IQ: http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

    The article about the PD applicant who was too smart (125 IQ is “too smart”, LOL) was referenced several times here so I checked it out. First point: this is a resolution of a twenty year old case. Second, applicant has spent the last 20 years as a prison guard (apparently he seems happy with his job, not bored at all.) I’d say New London’s policy is wrong, or, if the idea is sound, it is at least one standard deviation too low what it should be.

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    • Replies: @ben tillman

    The article about the PD applicant who was too smart (125 IQ is “too smart”, LOL) was referenced several times here so I checked it out. First point: this is a resolution of a twenty year old case. Second, applicant has spent the last 20 years as a prison guard (apparently he seems happy with his job, not bored at all.) I’d say New London’s policy is wrong, or, if the idea is sound, it is at least one standard deviation too low what it should be.
     
    I couldn't help wondering what happened in the lawsuit. Did the applicant have senior management in the PD take IQ tests? If so, what were the results? It would be relevant in view of the stated rationale for the policy.
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  86. The test is apparently meant to level the playing field so those more familiar with firefighting medicine/law/accounting/etc. don’t have an advantage.

    There, fixed it.

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  87. In 1983, as I was half-way through my BS Computer Science degree, I took my Boston suburb’s civil service firefighter exam as a back-up plan. I scored very well and was offered a job, but turned down the $8/hr position because I was determined to finish my degree and be a successful white-collar software engineering professional. Oh well, that didn’t turn out too bad despite the layoffs, crushing job competition, H1-B tech immigrant, and the “Great Recession!”

    Though, on the other hand, the high school grads that were smart enough to take that firefighter job back in ’83 all retired in their forties and have been enjoying their $50K+ (and growing) lifetime annual government pensions and government-subsidized health insurance for almost ten years now; while my salary is exactly what it was in 1999, but I do enjoy my two weeks of annual paid vacation and look forward to Medicare at age 65.

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    • Replies: @KarlinTalksSense
    You sir, are my twin brother from another mother.

    Hindsight, as I've found, is always 20/20.
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  88. @JohnnyWalker123
    By the way, let me repeat a comment I made a few months ago.

    Being a large-city firefighter is a good deal.

    1. Typically the base salary for large-city staff FFers (attained after a few years) is in the 90-100K range. Very good benefits, strong union, and lots of vacation too.
    2. They work a one-day on, two-day off schedule. Some work two-days on, four-days off schedule. So lots of time for hobbies, relaxing, partying, starting your own band, getting a side job, etc. Even when they’re on the job, there’s a lot of downtime and fairly low stress.
    3. Very generous pension (50% of peak salary after 20 years on the force). Lots of fire fighters even “double dip” by getting a 50K/yr pension and working a second job.
    4. Very strong job security. Rare for there to be layoffs.
    5. If you test well, you can test up into senior level positions. Some of the higher-ups in the organizations actually have considerable prestige in their local city govts.
    6. For a kid who can’t enter an elite career track (finance, law, medicine, consulting) and doesn’t want to go the entrepreneurship route, climbing the ranks of a FF department can be a good option to attain prestige and power. The competition is less fierce too.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I have said this exact same thing.

    I’m familiar with a few firefighters that hold two “full-time” firefighter positions in two different cities. They’re able to schedule their 24 hours on/48 hours off to allow them to do this. The earn about $70K at each job, and earn two pensions!

    The firefighters have strong unions and media and over the years have been able to bamboozle the public as to how “dangerous” and busy their jobs are. The local city officials are scared of the fire unions and roll over every three years at contract negotiation time. Remember, every firefighter wage and benefit was negotiated by city management and approved by city council.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    True. Lots of FFs work 2 days on, 4 days off. So lots of time for second jobs or side hustles.

    Yes, FF is not a particularly dangerous job these days. FFs are vastly overpaid to the value that they bring. Which is why they typically 50 applicants per position. It's just such a sweet job.
    , @KarlinTalksSense
    No doubt in my mind that I, with a significant STEM background (post-graduate) and career, will encourage my children to work for the fire department or PD or other useless government sinecures.

    I think we have at most one or two more generations before meaningful STEM jobs will cease to exist in the US, becoming primarily busy-work for low-IQ minorities.

    I've planned for my children and grandchildren accordingly.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    Erect, Teachers do the same thing, except they get all summer and spring break off and only work 184 days in these parts. Great pensions, step raises and outrageous healthcare and pension benefits all without having to run into the occasional burning building. They also are the biggest contributors to political campaigns so politicians treat them like they have a nuclear arsenal.
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  89. Bill says:
    @Triumph104
    Tiger Mom's daughter Sophia has been accepted to Yale Law School. Did the fact that both of her parents are famous Yale law professors play a role in her acceptance? We'll never know.

    When Neil deGrasse Tyson's daughter was asked if having a famous father had anything to do with her getting into Harvard, his alma mater, she replied: "It would be ignorant of me to claim that my relationship to my dad had nothing to do with my admission to Harvard. That being said, Harvard is not a school that would blindly accept a student based on the merit of his or her parent. It is not out of "luck" that I got in. I have worked very hard over the past few years, and Harvard recognized that. I like to believe my own merit supported me more than my dad's did. But if that isn't true, I now have the opportunity to prove to Harvard that I was the right choice. And I intend to take it."

    When I think “merit,” Black Science Man’s is not the picture that pops into my head.

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  90. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Everything has to be converted into a covert partial welfare scheme. Not much can really be done to transform the minority population so they get farmed out to everyone by decree. If it wasn’t for this form of hidden but higher paid welfare programs the minority employment rate would sink even further into Indian reservation levels. The next step will be to pass laws that each household has to adopt one black, housing and feeding them.

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  91. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I’m a 45-year old NYFD firewhiner with 25 years of “service.” For my dedicated “service” to the good citizens of NYC, I deserve to get paid! I’ve got bills! Alimony & child support to three ex-wives, payments on my Escalade, Harley, and speed boat. I’m juggling three girlfriends, and have some serious gambling debts. I now make close to $200K per year but deserve more! Not too bad for a high school grad who was washing cars before I got on with the NYFD. I did, however, earn my A.S. degree in “Fire Science” on the City’s dime. You wouldn’t believe how easy that was. The “instructors” were my NYFD buddies, so I passed w/ all As w/o opening a book! And that silly degree got me promoted three times to Sr. Deputy Assistant Deputy Big-Cheese Battalion Chief Indian Chief. And I still have lots of free time to work out while on the job. I’m trying to get on next year’s “Hottest Firewhiners of NYFD” calendar.

    Last year I “worked” tons of OT to spike my pension and will soon start accumulating my $100K/yr pension, and I’m only 45 years old! In 20 years, I’ll be 65 (the retirement age for most of you stiffs), the 3% COLA will have doubled my pension to $200K per year! My life expectancy is 88 years, so my pension will double again to $400K per year by the time I die. It gets better; my lovely 20-year old mail-order bride will collect my pension long after I die. Her life expectancy is 90 years. She’ll collect my growing pension for another 25 years after my death! The New York City has been very, very good to me. And I know you don’t feel appreciated, but a big thank you to the NYC taxpayers. Now get back to work and pay those taxes! Oh, by the way, F.U. Pay Me!

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  92. Dave says:
    @Wilkey
    The judge in this case, Nicholas Garaufis, was appointed by Bill Clinton. New Yorkers, including blue collar whites, voted for Bill Clinton twice and sent Hillary Clinton to the Senate, and then voted for the president who made her SecState.

    Democracy is the right of the people to get what they want, and get it good and hard.

    I live in NYC and know a couple veteran FF’s. If you think those guys voted for Clinton then you don’t have a good grasp of voting trends in NYC.

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  93. utu says:
    @PiltdownMan
    An equally good job is one as a New York State highway trooper. The salaries are even higher- apparently about $120k to start with and rising to the $180k range, with considerable overtime potential and a pension deal similar to FDNY. Plus, unlike the New York City firefighters, you are likely to luck out and live in a low cost, scenic location somewhere upstate. I'm told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. Also, my source tells me, there are only a handful of similar police gigs around the country. For what it's worth...

    “I’m told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. ” – in Canada and UK you have to belong to some masonic orders to make it in police.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    utu, My trade union had a large group of masons, I remember the rings they wore, membership greatly improved your yearly income.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    ... in Canada and UK you have to belong to some masonic orders to make it in police.
     
    And I thought their bizarre behavio(u)r was due to political correctness and fear of reprisal. But no, they're cultists.
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  94. Bill says:
    @unit472
    I don't think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law. As I recall the former lead guitar player for Country Joe and the Fish, Barry Melton became an attorney after passing the California State Bar exam.

    (To be certain I checked his Wiki bio and it seems Melton did sign up for classes with the original 'tear the cover off the matchbook ' correspondence school, LaSalle University, but I doubt if the 'law school' was accredited)

    Here is an article. Most states require a JD from an accredited law school. A few permit something like the old apprenticeship system. CA is one of the states which permits the apprenticeship method. However, it sounds quite onerous on the lawyer or judge running the apprenticeship.

    Professions with state licensing requirements generally require some kind of degree from an accredited school and a “paper and pencil” test. There are sometimes weird grandfathered exceptions, but these are usually impractical for one reason or another.

    Assuming I understand what he is saying (this is a strong assumption), this article says there were 64 people practicing law in CA who went through the apprenticeship system there.

    CA is kind of interesting. Formally, you don’t even need a college degree to practice law. You can take a test, the CLEP, to exempt the requirement to get a college degree. Then you can apprentice with a judge or lawyer and pass both the baby bar and the bar exam. I’m too lazy to figure out what the requirements are to sit for the CLEP, but if a GED is as good as a high school degree for that, then I suppose a high school dropout could theoretically practice law in CA.

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  95. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    OT, but check out Fred Reed’s hilarious take on the Trump phenomenon.

    http://fredoneverything.org/it-cometh-from-the-pitand-hath-a-knout/

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  96. Jimi says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    FF can be fairly technical. They offer Masters degrees in Fire Science and Fire Protection Engineering. It's not just point a hose and spray. If judges believe that, they're wrong.

    I suspect they do believe that.

    LSAT entrance exam for law schools and the bar exam to practice law also have disparate impact on black and latinos but no judge is striking down those practices.

    Presumably because they feel it is justifiable to select for intelligence in practice of law, not justifiable to do so for firefighting.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    It's even worse than that - the legal profession for blacks is a sort of Catch-22. They let them in to law school with low LSAT's due to affirmative action, but once you get there, there's no more affirmative action - most law school exams are anonymously graded (and not many electives especially for blacks with lower standards) and no A.A. on the bar exam. So something like 1/2 of all blacks who start law school never pass the bar exam. Meanwhile the law schools have their (loan) money and get to tout the % of blacks that they admit.
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  97. @Jimi
    I suspect elite judges think a fireman's job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose.

    In NYC you you have 150 year old rotten wood death traps standing side by side with new sprinklered buildings that compartmentalize to prevent the spread of fire. And all the buildings that come in between with varying degrees of safety. Firefighters need to know all types of building and their particular weaknesses and strengths.

    Check out this introductory manual designed to teach NYC firemen the differences:

    http://home.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/training/pdf/proby_manual/09_building_descriptions.pdf

    You don't need to be a genius to figure this stuff out but you need to have a certain level of intelligence and diligence.

    Let people who do not know the law become law talking dudes. Hillary could then have been a corrupt Shelbyville lawyer instead of a corrupt Springfield one.

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  98. @Anonym
    Now, the FDNY has finally learned the lesson that La Griffe du Lion pointed out years ago: If you want to please the feds, you can minimize disparate impact (percentage point differential) of the hiring test by making it extremely easy, then hiring randomly.

    That may be the case, but this is a good way to hire incompetent firefighters. This will result in more deaths and injuries from fires, more out of control fires, more damage from fire, more injured/killed firefighters, more government funds wasted because of incompetent actions. Is this acceptable?

    The question that needs to be asked is... in which occupations should society place people of different IQ levels? What is an optimal allocation of the IQ strata in our society? I don't know too many jobs where someone very competent cannot do a much better job than a dunce. e.g. If you restrict your high IQ people from entering the police force, their top level people will perform more poorly... giving someone a higher rank does not increase their IQ. Is a society where smart criminals routinely bypass the law a good outcome? Is the allocation of high IQ people into things like investment banking, hedge funds or law a good thing?

    I can assure you that they don’t hire randomly. FF depts know what they’re doing and tend to hire the best of the applicant pool.

    The problem is that even if you hire the best minorities, there’s still a considerable gap between white males and everyone else. That means less competent FFs, which makes a difference in life/death situations.

    It’s not so much that the minority/female FF hires are poor. It’s that there are some exemplary A+ white hires who get passed over for for B minority/female hires. You’ve got to ask if you want the A+ FF in an emegency or the B FF.

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  99. @E. Rekshun
    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I have said this exact same thing.

    I'm familiar with a few firefighters that hold two "full-time" firefighter positions in two different cities. They're able to schedule their 24 hours on/48 hours off to allow them to do this. The earn about $70K at each job, and earn two pensions!

    The firefighters have strong unions and media and over the years have been able to bamboozle the public as to how "dangerous" and busy their jobs are. The local city officials are scared of the fire unions and roll over every three years at contract negotiation time. Remember, every firefighter wage and benefit was negotiated by city management and approved by city council.

    True. Lots of FFs work 2 days on, 4 days off. So lots of time for second jobs or side hustles.

    Yes, FF is not a particularly dangerous job these days. FFs are vastly overpaid to the value that they bring. Which is why they typically 50 applicants per position. It’s just such a sweet job.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    This is an example of why FDR was against public sector unions. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions
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  100. @Chrisnonymous
    Well... I'm not surprised...

    just kidding!!

    ; D

    Haha.

    When I walked in for the test and observed there were thousands of people there, I realized it wasn’t happening. I made it to the orals for that last dept, but it didn’t go further than that.

    Oh well.

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  101. @Discard
    New York is special. They got away with the "Stop and frisk" policy of open harassment of dark people for years. I think it was Steve Sailer who said that the Masters of WallStreet might be isolated from street crime, but they were not going to let their underlings get robbed and raped. I don't think they care to be burned alive either.

    I also think the presence of lots of Italians and Irish makes a difference. They tend to be much “meaner” than whites in other parts of the country. They’re not much into the idea of white guilt. They fought neighborhood integration and busing much harder than whites in other parts of the country. As recently as the 80s, the east coast had overwhelmingly white housing projects.

    Of course, these days, their ethnic solidarity and clout isn’t quite what it used to be.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    JW, Actually, the Italians and Irish were more interested in preserving their culture and their family's security. I don't think we are meaner.
    , @Ed
    That maybe but they're also the group most responsible for this country's leftward slide that appears to be increasingly irreversible.
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  102. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Triumph104
    A passing score of 65 on the NY Algebra I Regents exam can be earned by answering 38 percent of the questions correctly.

    On many AP exams, answering 70 percent of the questions correctly will earn a top score of 5.

    A French citizen has to pass the baccalaureate in order to be admitted to a university. The pass rate is 90 percent.

    The pass rate is 90 percent.

    Did you mean that a mark of 90% in the test is required to pass or that 90% of those taking the test pass?

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Ninety percent of the test takers will pass the French baccalauréat exam. In 1960, only 11 percent of all French 18 -year-olds passed the exam, in 1982 28 percent.

    I have heard that university degrees don't have much value in France. I believe Zacarias Moussaoui was unable to find gainful employment after graduating from French university. He later earned a master's degree in London. While in London he started practicing Islam and supposedly met extremists.

    High-ranking official and businessmen usually attend grandes écoles instead of universities.

    Admission to the “grandes écoles” and “French universities” is very different. Except for certain special academic programs, French universities are required by law to admit any student having completed the national baccalauréat, regardless of students' other grades or qualifications. This is in contrast with the highly selective admissions system for French "grandes écoles", as explained below.

    To be admitted into one of the French "grandes écoles", most students study in a two-year preparatory program in one of the CPGE before taking a set of highly competitive national exams. Different exams are required by groups (called "banques") of different schools. The national exams are sets of written tests, given over the course of several weeks, that challenge the student on the intensive studies of the previous two years. During the summer, those students who succeed in the written exams then take a further set of exams, usually one-hour oral exams, during which they are given a problem to solve. After 20 minutes of preparation, the candidate presents the solution to a professor, who challenges the candidate on the answer and the assumptions being made. Afterwards, candidates receive a final national ranking which determines admission to the grandes écoles of choice.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles#Today
     

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  103. @Discard
    Perhaps?

    Years ago, the ex-leftist David Horowitz wrote about AA in the San Francisco FD in his magazine "Heterodoxy". AA is all about lowering standards. Dumb, dead Black firemen and weak, crying firewomen. All at the behest of a female non-White Jimmy Carter-appointed judge.

    Well, it depends. If the white male FFs are still there in large numbers, maybe they can pick up the slack. Maybe.

    Also, the women/minority applicants aren’t that incompetent. The question is how much the FF service suffers when you substitute a B woman/minority for a white A+ applicant.

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  104. guest says:
    @Anonymous

    “Has Tyson done any real science? He seems to be a media celebrity, but when I look in the Smithsonian/NASA ADS, I can find no record of scholarly work in science, except for popular books and social commentary. Is he in fact a practicing astrophysicist?"

    Not since graduate school (he did not successfully progress towards a degree at UT/Austin, and convinced Columbia to give him a second try). Aside from the obligatory papers describing his dissertation, he’s got a paper on how to take dome flats, a bizarre paper speculating about an asteroid hitting Uranus, and courtesy mentions *very* late in the author lists of a few big projects in which it is unclear what, if anything, of substance he contributed. No first author papers of any real significance whatsoever. Nor is there any evidence that he has been awarded any telescope time on significant instruments as PI since grad school, despite the incredibly inflated claims in his published CVs. He cozied up to Bush and pushed Bush’s version of man to the Moon, Mars, and Beyond, and now gets appointed to just about every high level political advisory board. To an actual astronomer, this is almost beyond inconceivable. It’s just bizarre. To answer Delong’s question, no: he is not a practicing astrophysicist. – Don Barry, Ph.D. Dept. of Astronomy, Cornell University
     

    What does “did not successfully progress towards a degree” mean? Either he dropped out or he flunked out. Why would he drop out if he went on to get degrees elsewhere? Isn’t the usual process to transfer or get the degree and move on to greener pastures. If your goal is to be a PHD, that is. I suppose he could have decided to do something else in the meantime, then returned to get the degrees. But it sounds like he flunked out.

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    This Texas alumni article explains Tyson's time in Austin and says that he was essentially flunked.

    “The first comment directed to me in the first minute of the first day by a faculty member I had just met was, ‘You must join the department basketball team!’”

    Tyson was offended, but he liked basketball, so he signed up anyway. He also joined UT’s competitive dance, rowing, and wrestling teams—unusual activities for a PhD student. “I should’ve spent more time in the lab,” Tyson admits, “but that wasn’t me. I took my studies very seriously, but I also did these other pursuits.”

     

    http://alcalde.texasexes.org/2012/02/star-power/
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  105. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @JohnnyWalker123
    True. Lots of FFs work 2 days on, 4 days off. So lots of time for second jobs or side hustles.

    Yes, FF is not a particularly dangerous job these days. FFs are vastly overpaid to the value that they bring. Which is why they typically 50 applicants per position. It's just such a sweet job.
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  106. guest says:
    @Dr. X

    a Democratic judge ruled the test devised by the city of New York was racially/ethnically biased because it presented readings on fire safety and then asked hard questions, such as: what kind of chainsaw should you use to cut through a steel door?

     

    According to the article, knowledge of firefighting was not so much the issue as being able to acquire that knowledge via reading comprehension. Of course you cannot be expected to have a priori knowledge of a subject you are going to be trained in, but you need to have the ability to comprehend the upcoming training.

    “Of course you cannot be expected to have a priori knowledge of a subject you are going to be trained in”

    Of course you can.

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  107. Racially biased questions on the test, at least to me, would be: How much does a Bar Mitzvah cost, How much garlic do you need to make Pasta Aliol, Is there real soda in soda bread,not which saw blade do you use to cut through a steel door. I saw a copy of the former test. The saw blade question was preceded by a description of the saw and the blades and their use. You then selected the proper blade for the situation….duh. A black columnist in NY tried to skew thinking by using made-up words to replace terms like nozzle size, hose length and PSI in an attempt to make it look like only the spawn of NYPD would know these terms. He came off looking like an asshole. NYC is in bigger trouble because Judge Kimba Wood decided twice that the teacher’s test was racist. I think that you throw everyone’s name in a hat and pick, but you don’t get to decide what job you get. Like in the service, you to infantry, you to artillery, you to engineers, etc.

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  108. @JohnnyWalker123
    I also think the presence of lots of Italians and Irish makes a difference. They tend to be much "meaner" than whites in other parts of the country. They're not much into the idea of white guilt. They fought neighborhood integration and busing much harder than whites in other parts of the country. As recently as the 80s, the east coast had overwhelmingly white housing projects.

    Of course, these days, their ethnic solidarity and clout isn't quite what it used to be.

    JW, Actually, the Italians and Irish were more interested in preserving their culture and their family’s security. I don’t think we are meaner.

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  109. carol says:
    @unit472
    I don't think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law. As I recall the former lead guitar player for Country Joe and the Fish, Barry Melton became an attorney after passing the California State Bar exam.

    (To be certain I checked his Wiki bio and it seems Melton did sign up for classes with the original 'tear the cover off the matchbook ' correspondence school, LaSalle University, but I doubt if the 'law school' was accredited)

    Calif was kind of different, at least in the 80s when I looked into it. I think you had to have 2 years of undergrad, is all.. then the bar exam. So there were a lot of fly by night law schools that taught to the test, and a low pass rate.

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  110. This could give a new (or old) meaning to “Feel the Bern”.

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  111. @JohnnyWalker123
    Good point. Cities like Seattle, Portland, NYC, San Jose, San Francisco, etc. Cities with lots of high-earning taxpayers and responsible govts. If you retire in a city with financial problems, they could cut your pension.

    Firefighters get to retire after 20 years, at 50% of their highest base salary. So if you start at age 22 and earn 90K/yr (at your peak earnings), you can retire at age 42 and collect 45K/yr for the rest of your life. If you want, you can get hired into another department. Then once you hit 62, you theoretically be taking 90K/yr in pension (45K+45K).

    Few, if any of those pension funds are solvent. Even in wealthy, white places. Their actuaries have to project 12% annual returns in order to get them to look solvent.

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  112. Come on, it’s the age of madness.

    Firefighters who can’t fight fires.

    Police who can’t stop crime.

    Stop denying reality.

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  113. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @SteveM
    Yeah, well it's also what goes around comes around.

    The Ivy League sets aside 20% of its admit class for alumni legacies. In that context the SAT is the FDNY entry examine and those legacies didn't make the cut.

    The disparate impact there is on applicants whose parents didn't shovel a university tens of thousands to grease their mediocre kid in.

    If you want to swing a 2x4 at "affirmative action", swing it in all directions.

    10′s of thousands for Ivy League? Think again. From iSteve May 1, 2010.

    “The Harvard Number is the amount of money Harvard would want as a donation for accepting your kid as an undergraduate. It’s not the kind of information they post on their website. You have to ask the right people in the right manner.

    He said he just found out that the current Harvard Number — assuming your kid’s application was “competitive” (i.e., there’s some chance your kid would get in even if you didn’t write a check) — is $5 million.

    If your kid’s “not competitive,” then it is $10 million”

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  114. @Big Bill

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.
     
    Only if you are in a rich white city: one in which the NAM tax burden +public payroll + pensions is not crushing, like Chicago or Detroit.

    Not Fresno or Newark or Baltimore or any of the dozens of cities and counties that have lost their tax base and borrow money they can never pay back.

    Preferably a banksta city like New York that can collect as much money from the elite as necessary to pay salaries and FD pensions (and who in turn extract THEIR wealth from pension funds and working stiffs in the rest of the country).

    Ha! Chicago Fire Dept. pension is secure in comparison to that of Chicago teachers and city workers, who have separate funds. CPD salaries exceed $100K with add-on qualifications, such as fire training, water rescue, etc., etc., and budget problems resolved by recent raises in property taxes on all properties over $250K guarantee that these brave, self-sacrificing fire warriors sitting on their asses all day long will continue to collect big salaries and benefits. Detroit is a dead city; Chicago, like NYC, has yet to see diminishing returns on taxing its professional class. Tune in to Chicago Fire on NBC for details.

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  115. @E. Rekshun
    In 1983, as I was half-way through my BS Computer Science degree, I took my Boston suburb's civil service firefighter exam as a back-up plan. I scored very well and was offered a job, but turned down the $8/hr position because I was determined to finish my degree and be a successful white-collar software engineering professional. Oh well, that didn't turn out too bad despite the layoffs, crushing job competition, H1-B tech immigrant, and the "Great Recession!"

    Though, on the other hand, the high school grads that were smart enough to take that firefighter job back in '83 all retired in their forties and have been enjoying their $50K+ (and growing) lifetime annual government pensions and government-subsidized health insurance for almost ten years now; while my salary is exactly what it was in 1999, but I do enjoy my two weeks of annual paid vacation and look forward to Medicare at age 65.

    You sir, are my twin brother from another mother.

    Hindsight, as I’ve found, is always 20/20.

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  116. @E. Rekshun
    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I have said this exact same thing.

    I'm familiar with a few firefighters that hold two "full-time" firefighter positions in two different cities. They're able to schedule their 24 hours on/48 hours off to allow them to do this. The earn about $70K at each job, and earn two pensions!

    The firefighters have strong unions and media and over the years have been able to bamboozle the public as to how "dangerous" and busy their jobs are. The local city officials are scared of the fire unions and roll over every three years at contract negotiation time. Remember, every firefighter wage and benefit was negotiated by city management and approved by city council.

    No doubt in my mind that I, with a significant STEM background (post-graduate) and career, will encourage my children to work for the fire department or PD or other useless government sinecures.

    I think we have at most one or two more generations before meaningful STEM jobs will cease to exist in the US, becoming primarily busy-work for low-IQ minorities.

    I’ve planned for my children and grandchildren accordingly.

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  117. @Discard
    I have read that firemen have far fewer fires to deal with than in times past. Smoke alarms, automatic sprinklers, OSHA regulations, etc, have made fires less common and less destructive. When it's time to run into the burning building and pull the children out, they have to earn their keep, but you can be a dummy or a weakling and get by for a longer time than was possible decades ago.

    Discard, last month in Buffalo, at one fire, four people burned to death. A week later another fire took one life. I agree with most of your comment but, older houses, which is most of Buffalo’s housing stock, are fire prone, not fire proof. My daughter lives in Bucks County, PA, high end housing requires sprinkler systems throughout the house. I escaped twice from burning plants when I was in construction, the fear of burning almost overwhelmed me. I was ok, others not so lucky. A few years ago, a Continental Commuter flight crashed into a house in our town. Fifty people died, including one in the house. Our local volunteers had to extract burned and maimed bodies from the wreckage. I can not imagine the horror and the nightmares. God bless firefighters.

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    • Replies: @Auntie Analogue
    My dear Buffalo Joe, in a densely inhabited northeastern city my late Dad was a professional fireman, a profession from which he retired following twenty-seven years of arduous service, during which he suffered two serious on the job injuries which might have ended his career and which later in life plagued him. Dad also fought fires in which his coworkers were mortally consumed.

    When Dad joined the fire department there was no firemen's union and his salary was barely adequate to sustain his family. His work week was 64 hours, a great many nights of which he slept in the firehouse away from our home. The union coalesced in the early 1960's and its first gain was a 42-hour work week. Later gains included a clothing allowance (prior to which firemen had paid out of pocket for replacement of their one-time-issued uniforms and maintenance and replacement of their costly necessary array of turnout gear), better pay, better vacation (which had been serf-like stingy), mandatory overtime pay, and improved health and pension benefits (health benefits had hitherto been limited to stingy workmen's compensation, and pensions had been parsimonious).

    Following many a shift in which Dad and his fellow firemen had to carry out survivors from blazing buildings or had to dig out charcoaled corpses, Dad was not right for several days with us, his family. On one Christmas Day morning Dad came home from a shift in which he and his fellows had to excavate from still hot, blackened collapsed ruins the charred cadavers of twelve human beings. That was the worst Christmas Day ever.

    Firemen have their own brand of gallows humor, without which facing the grimmest of their ordeals would be impossible for mere men. Soldiers, too, have the same sort of humor - for instance, in WWII the Sherman tank was so easily incinerated when struck by enemy fire that GI's called them "Ronsons." Dad's and his fellows' humor featured the term "Crispy Critters" - borrowed from a then-popular breakfast cereal brand - for the grotesquely contorted, fire- blackened remains of human beings which they had to exhume from the hot stench of immolated homes. Yes, that sounds cruel, but it's what helps firemen get through the ghastliness of their most daunting and repugnant tasks.

    All that said, since Dad's 1981 retirement, it is true that public sector unions (especially teachers' unions) have mushroomed out of control, beyond reasonable pay and benefits to the point at which those unions not only hold a ballot gun to the heads of the elect, but also to the point at which deindustralized municipalities, now bereft of a mostly-employed citizenry, now hold crippling and even lethal pension liabilities.
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  118. TWS says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    About 80% of firefighting calls are EMT-related. Only 20% involve fighting actual fires.

    EMT calls still require a high degree of competence. However, firefighting departments get huge numbers of applications and hire the top 1-2%. So even if they hire minorities/women due to AA, they can get fairly competent people. Just not quite as competent as they would if there was no AA.

    Firefighting is still 95% white as a profession. As it changes and becomes more diverse due to AA, perhaps competency will fall.

    And it doesn’t matter if the EMT’s refuse to lift because they simply can’t. I responded to a call with an all female crew. All of them refused to lift the victim because she was too big. So me (a cop) and some nearby coast guard guys lifted the woman to the ambulance. If we had not been there the EMTs would have let her die.

    So it does matter whether or not the AA hires can actually do the job.

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  119. @Wilkey
    "I suspect elite judges think a fireman’s job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose."

    It's the kind of ruling that reveals what law school graduate judges think of lesser, blue collar types. In their minds practicing law requires intelligence and education, but any dumbass can fight a fire.

    I worked my way through college working blue collar jobs. Then I managed some of those same blue collar workers for a few years. Then I switched to a white collar industry. Whether blue collar or white collar, intelligence and work ethic make a huge difference in quality and productivity. When it comes to fighting fires that difference is measured in the number of lives saved.

    Wilkey, Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Yes, the elites can’t comprehend why you would need to be smart to be anything but a professional. My past is similar to yours, but I carried a union book and then managed construction and I too graduated from college while working full time. Years ago I was getting hammered by my ex in family court and it took it’s toll on me. I was a mope and depressed. The guys working for me could sense my agony. One old ironworker took me aside and said…” you know Joe, I would be happier to tell people my daughter was a whore, than my son was a lawyer!” That says a lot, and you have a great day.

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  120. Back to the old Fire Fighters versus Fire Watchers.

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  121. @E. Rekshun
    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.

    I have said this exact same thing.

    I'm familiar with a few firefighters that hold two "full-time" firefighter positions in two different cities. They're able to schedule their 24 hours on/48 hours off to allow them to do this. The earn about $70K at each job, and earn two pensions!

    The firefighters have strong unions and media and over the years have been able to bamboozle the public as to how "dangerous" and busy their jobs are. The local city officials are scared of the fire unions and roll over every three years at contract negotiation time. Remember, every firefighter wage and benefit was negotiated by city management and approved by city council.

    Erect, Teachers do the same thing, except they get all summer and spring break off and only work 184 days in these parts. Great pensions, step raises and outrageous healthcare and pension benefits all without having to run into the occasional burning building. They also are the biggest contributors to political campaigns so politicians treat them like they have a nuclear arsenal.

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  122. @SPMoore8
    The article about the PD applicant who was too smart (125 IQ is "too smart", LOL) was referenced several times here so I checked it out. First point: this is a resolution of a twenty year old case. Second, applicant has spent the last 20 years as a prison guard (apparently he seems happy with his job, not bored at all.) I'd say New London's policy is wrong, or, if the idea is sound, it is at least one standard deviation too low what it should be.

    The article about the PD applicant who was too smart (125 IQ is “too smart”, LOL) was referenced several times here so I checked it out. First point: this is a resolution of a twenty year old case. Second, applicant has spent the last 20 years as a prison guard (apparently he seems happy with his job, not bored at all.) I’d say New London’s policy is wrong, or, if the idea is sound, it is at least one standard deviation too low what it should be.

    I couldn’t help wondering what happened in the lawsuit. Did the applicant have senior management in the PD take IQ tests? If so, what were the results? It would be relevant in view of the stated rationale for the policy.

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  123. @PiltdownMan

    I don’t think it is necessary to attend law school to practice law.
     
    I don't know how it works in Britain anymore, but the principal requirement of at least one of the four prestigious Inns of Court in London, their equivalent of law school, used to be that the aspiring law student show up for at least 24 dinners at the dining chambers, and acquit himself well in dinnertime conversation with senior legal worthies. Hitting the books was not to be spoken of, and done in one's private time, or not at all, presumably.

    As far as I know, this system continued through the first half of the twentieth century and, as we know, there has, of course, been no dearth of brilliant legal minds in the UK.

    But then, back in those days, Britain had unsparing standards in high school, and boys were expected to finish school at the age of eighteen being able to write with flair, and speak, debate and think with great facility.

    That particular culture is dying out, but I do remember when I was hired into a British bank in the late 1980s, I was astonished that some members of the senior management team—all polished, intelligent and capable men— had only high school educations and yet had been directly hired into the bank's A-track career program.

    I do remember when I was hired into a British bank in the late 1980s, I was astonished that some members of the senior management team—all polished, intelligent and capable men— had only high school educations and yet had been directly hired into the bank’s A-track career program.

    That was the way it was originally in the Canadian banking system as well–the late Peter Jennings of ABC News used to tell of how, since he came from a respectable Toronto family but was not himself really college material (in fact he dropped out of the 10th grade), he was encouraged to take an entry-level job with the Royal Bank of Canada, with every expectation that he had an eventual shot at upper management despite his lack of education. Finance, in the Commonwealth countries, historically simply was not seen as an “academic” field.

    Oh, and that “dumb” Canadian banking culture, as David Frum would be happy to tell you, was ruthlessly realistic in its mortgage lending standards into this century. As Orwell said, some things are so stupid only an intellectual can believe in them.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Right. No Canadian banks failed during the Depression. Mortgage loans are typically for just 5 years and the interest is -not- tax deductible.
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  124. More evidence, as if any more were needed, that anti-White anti-racist Progressivism [sic] is a suicidal death cult.

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  125. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @George
    OK she is a hypocrite.

    The biggest scam is requiring an undergraduate degree to attend law school, as far as I know no other country requires someone to attend 4 years of university to qualify to spend another 2 or 3 to attend law school. In reality there should be no requirement to become a lawyer beyond passing the bar, but that is too radical for most even though in the past one became a lawyer by apprenticing as a clerk.

    BTW, why not require an undergraduate degree in say engineering or chemistry to become a fireman?

    President Van Buren avoided student loans by entering the legal profession at age 14.

    Van Buren received a basic education at the village schoolhouse and briefly studied Latin at the Kinderhook Academy and at Washington Seminary in Claverack.[26][27] His formal education ended before he reached 14, when he began reading law in 1796 at the office of Peter Silvester and his son Francis, prominent Federalist attorneys in Kinderhook. -wikipedia

    In other countries, you have to take rigorous college entrance exams in order to pass into college in the first place, and also into the major of your choice. Many countries even place students on specific study tracks years before the end of highschool, and not all students qualify to even take the entrance exams for studying law.

    We can debate the pros and cons of such a system versus the American one, but I think it goes against the American ethos to tell a student that they can’t choose what they want to study. I wonder if all the Bernie Sanders supporters quite understand the major restrictions that come along with free higher education, as it’s such a different system from the American one. Or do they believe that they can do away with these restrictions and keep the system as it is now, only free?

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  126. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Discard
    I have read that 80% of retired California Highway Patrolmen collect disability pensions. Something to do with the seat belts disturbing their donut bellies.

    In that case, truckers ought to have the same medical issues, but I’ve never heard of them having any “seat belts disturbing their donut bellies” problems. The disabilities probably have to do with 40 years of having to get into sudden fights with violent criminals.

    Your anti-cop remark makes you sound like someone who’s had a run-in with the police recently. What did you do?

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Nothing. Anyone with at least half a brain knows that cops are assholes.
    , @Discard
    "…donut bellies…" was a jest.

    I don't believe that 80% of California Highway Patrolmen have real disabilities. Their job is patrolling the highways and writing tickets, not confronting robbers. Sort of like meter maids on steroids.

    I'm not anti-cop, I'm anti pension fraud.
    , @MarkinLA
    The disabilities probably have to do with 40 years of having to get into sudden fights with violent criminals.

    No, it has to do with no real effort by the state to push back against phony disability claims.
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  127. @Buffalo Joe
    Discard, last month in Buffalo, at one fire, four people burned to death. A week later another fire took one life. I agree with most of your comment but, older houses, which is most of Buffalo's housing stock, are fire prone, not fire proof. My daughter lives in Bucks County, PA, high end housing requires sprinkler systems throughout the house. I escaped twice from burning plants when I was in construction, the fear of burning almost overwhelmed me. I was ok, others not so lucky. A few years ago, a Continental Commuter flight crashed into a house in our town. Fifty people died, including one in the house. Our local volunteers had to extract burned and maimed bodies from the wreckage. I can not imagine the horror and the nightmares. God bless firefighters.

    My dear Buffalo Joe, in a densely inhabited northeastern city my late Dad was a professional fireman, a profession from which he retired following twenty-seven years of arduous service, during which he suffered two serious on the job injuries which might have ended his career and which later in life plagued him. Dad also fought fires in which his coworkers were mortally consumed.

    When Dad joined the fire department there was no firemen’s union and his salary was barely adequate to sustain his family. His work week was 64 hours, a great many nights of which he slept in the firehouse away from our home. The union coalesced in the early 1960′s and its first gain was a 42-hour work week. Later gains included a clothing allowance (prior to which firemen had paid out of pocket for replacement of their one-time-issued uniforms and maintenance and replacement of their costly necessary array of turnout gear), better pay, better vacation (which had been serf-like stingy), mandatory overtime pay, and improved health and pension benefits (health benefits had hitherto been limited to stingy workmen’s compensation, and pensions had been parsimonious).

    Following many a shift in which Dad and his fellow firemen had to carry out survivors from blazing buildings or had to dig out charcoaled corpses, Dad was not right for several days with us, his family. On one Christmas Day morning Dad came home from a shift in which he and his fellows had to excavate from still hot, blackened collapsed ruins the charred cadavers of twelve human beings. That was the worst Christmas Day ever.

    Firemen have their own brand of gallows humor, without which facing the grimmest of their ordeals would be impossible for mere men. Soldiers, too, have the same sort of humor – for instance, in WWII the Sherman tank was so easily incinerated when struck by enemy fire that GI’s called them “Ronsons.” Dad’s and his fellows’ humor featured the term “Crispy Critters” – borrowed from a then-popular breakfast cereal brand – for the grotesquely contorted, fire- blackened remains of human beings which they had to exhume from the hot stench of immolated homes. Yes, that sounds cruel, but it’s what helps firemen get through the ghastliness of their most daunting and repugnant tasks.

    All that said, since Dad’s 1981 retirement, it is true that public sector unions (especially teachers’ unions) have mushroomed out of control, beyond reasonable pay and benefits to the point at which those unions not only hold a ballot gun to the heads of the elect, but also to the point at which deindustralized municipalities, now bereft of a mostly-employed citizenry, now hold crippling and even lethal pension liabilities.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Auntie, I truly meant what I said....God bless firefighters.
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  128. slumber_j says:
    @Discard
    I have read that firemen have far fewer fires to deal with than in times past. Smoke alarms, automatic sprinklers, OSHA regulations, etc, have made fires less common and less destructive. When it's time to run into the burning building and pull the children out, they have to earn their keep, but you can be a dummy or a weakling and get by for a longer time than was possible decades ago.

    I was talking to an FDNY fireman at a party recently, and he was talking about how there are way fewer fires now. He ascribed the drop to saturation cellphone ownership. As he put it, now they’re mostly on-scene when things are still at the smoldering-pot stage.

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  129. ATBOTL says:

    Am I the only one to notice the irony of blacks calling themselves the “Vulcan Society” and then wanting to racially discriminate against the white people whose ancestors worshipped Vulcan?

    Why can’t they name their group after some African god instead?

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Why can’t they name their group after some African god instead?
     
    Got any specific ones in mind? I think the black firefighters would have liked to have used Greek, but when they saw the spelling of Hephaestus...
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  130. @utu
    "I’m told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. " - in Canada and UK you have to belong to some masonic orders to make it in police.

    utu, My trade union had a large group of masons, I remember the rings they wore, membership greatly improved your yearly income.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Were they brick, stone, or cement Masons?
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  131. Brooklyn federal Judge Nicholas Giraufis

    How tall is Judge Giraufis?

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  132. @ATBOTL
    Am I the only one to notice the irony of blacks calling themselves the "Vulcan Society" and then wanting to racially discriminate against the white people whose ancestors worshipped Vulcan?

    Why can't they name their group after some African god instead?

    Why can’t they name their group after some African god instead?

    Got any specific ones in mind? I think the black firefighters would have liked to have used Greek, but when they saw the spelling of Hephaestus…

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  133. @Auntie Analogue
    My dear Buffalo Joe, in a densely inhabited northeastern city my late Dad was a professional fireman, a profession from which he retired following twenty-seven years of arduous service, during which he suffered two serious on the job injuries which might have ended his career and which later in life plagued him. Dad also fought fires in which his coworkers were mortally consumed.

    When Dad joined the fire department there was no firemen's union and his salary was barely adequate to sustain his family. His work week was 64 hours, a great many nights of which he slept in the firehouse away from our home. The union coalesced in the early 1960's and its first gain was a 42-hour work week. Later gains included a clothing allowance (prior to which firemen had paid out of pocket for replacement of their one-time-issued uniforms and maintenance and replacement of their costly necessary array of turnout gear), better pay, better vacation (which had been serf-like stingy), mandatory overtime pay, and improved health and pension benefits (health benefits had hitherto been limited to stingy workmen's compensation, and pensions had been parsimonious).

    Following many a shift in which Dad and his fellow firemen had to carry out survivors from blazing buildings or had to dig out charcoaled corpses, Dad was not right for several days with us, his family. On one Christmas Day morning Dad came home from a shift in which he and his fellows had to excavate from still hot, blackened collapsed ruins the charred cadavers of twelve human beings. That was the worst Christmas Day ever.

    Firemen have their own brand of gallows humor, without which facing the grimmest of their ordeals would be impossible for mere men. Soldiers, too, have the same sort of humor - for instance, in WWII the Sherman tank was so easily incinerated when struck by enemy fire that GI's called them "Ronsons." Dad's and his fellows' humor featured the term "Crispy Critters" - borrowed from a then-popular breakfast cereal brand - for the grotesquely contorted, fire- blackened remains of human beings which they had to exhume from the hot stench of immolated homes. Yes, that sounds cruel, but it's what helps firemen get through the ghastliness of their most daunting and repugnant tasks.

    All that said, since Dad's 1981 retirement, it is true that public sector unions (especially teachers' unions) have mushroomed out of control, beyond reasonable pay and benefits to the point at which those unions not only hold a ballot gun to the heads of the elect, but also to the point at which deindustralized municipalities, now bereft of a mostly-employed citizenry, now hold crippling and even lethal pension liabilities.

    Auntie, I truly meant what I said….God bless firefighters.

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  134. @utu
    "I’m told you have to be connected, though,to make it all the way through the interviews. " - in Canada and UK you have to belong to some masonic orders to make it in police.

    … in Canada and UK you have to belong to some masonic orders to make it in police.

    And I thought their bizarre behavio(u)r was due to political correctness and fear of reprisal. But no, they’re cultists.

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  135. keypusher says:
    @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    The hilarious thing, of course, is that the disparate impact of the old tests is ascribed to their firefighting content. You know, because otherwise blacks and whites would score the same, like they do on other standardized tests.

    The way NY solved its disparate impact test problem was by making the test really easy. The city didn’t have to eliminate the firefighting content. Eliminating the firefighting content was just a way to conceal what the city was really up to.

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  136. Corn says:

    #125 Laweducation:
    I’m glad you brought that up. I was reading some idiot millenial’s tumblr a few weeks ago, and she was always singing the praises of St. Bernie who would provide free college for all. She got some cold water thrown on her when she was messaged by another tumblr user who told her: In my country (I forget which one) college is free. But in order to save money and keep kids from slacking and lollygagging around, it’s only free for the top 5 or 10% in each high school’s class. Don’t think the USA wouldn’t do the same.

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  137. @The Man From K Street

    I do remember when I was hired into a British bank in the late 1980s, I was astonished that some members of the senior management team—all polished, intelligent and capable men— had only high school educations and yet had been directly hired into the bank’s A-track career program.
     
    That was the way it was originally in the Canadian banking system as well--the late Peter Jennings of ABC News used to tell of how, since he came from a respectable Toronto family but was not himself really college material (in fact he dropped out of the 10th grade), he was encouraged to take an entry-level job with the Royal Bank of Canada, with every expectation that he had an eventual shot at upper management despite his lack of education. Finance, in the Commonwealth countries, historically simply was not seen as an "academic" field.

    Oh, and that "dumb" Canadian banking culture, as David Frum would be happy to tell you, was ruthlessly realistic in its mortgage lending standards into this century. As Orwell said, some things are so stupid only an intellectual can believe in them.

    Right. No Canadian banks failed during the Depression. Mortgage loans are typically for just 5 years and the interest is -not- tax deductible.

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  138. @The most deplorable one

    The pass rate is 90 percent.
     
    Did you mean that a mark of 90% in the test is required to pass or that 90% of those taking the test pass?

    Ninety percent of the test takers will pass the French baccalauréat exam. In 1960, only 11 percent of all French 18 -year-olds passed the exam, in 1982 28 percent.

    I have heard that university degrees don’t have much value in France. I believe Zacarias Moussaoui was unable to find gainful employment after graduating from French university. He later earned a master’s degree in London. While in London he started practicing Islam and supposedly met extremists.

    High-ranking official and businessmen usually attend grandes écoles instead of universities.

    Admission to the “grandes écoles” and “French universities” is very different. Except for certain special academic programs, French universities are required by law to admit any student having completed the national baccalauréat, regardless of students’ other grades or qualifications. This is in contrast with the highly selective admissions system for French “grandes écoles”, as explained below.

    To be admitted into one of the French “grandes écoles”, most students study in a two-year preparatory program in one of the CPGE before taking a set of highly competitive national exams. Different exams are required by groups (called “banques”) of different schools. The national exams are sets of written tests, given over the course of several weeks, that challenge the student on the intensive studies of the previous two years. During the summer, those students who succeed in the written exams then take a further set of exams, usually one-hour oral exams, during which they are given a problem to solve. After 20 minutes of preparation, the candidate presents the solution to a professor, who challenges the candidate on the answer and the assumptions being made. Afterwards, candidates receive a final national ranking which determines admission to the grandes écoles of choice.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles#Today

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    • Replies: @Rob McX
    Most of the governing class who have engineered the ruin of France over the last few decades are graduates of the grandes écoles, especially the École nationale d'administration.
    , @ScarletNumber
    I always thought that Zacarias Moussaoui looked like Michael Wilbon.
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  139. @guest
    What does "did not successfully progress towards a degree" mean? Either he dropped out or he flunked out. Why would he drop out if he went on to get degrees elsewhere? Isn't the usual process to transfer or get the degree and move on to greener pastures. If your goal is to be a PHD, that is. I suppose he could have decided to do something else in the meantime, then returned to get the degrees. But it sounds like he flunked out.

    This Texas alumni article explains Tyson’s time in Austin and says that he was essentially flunked.

    “The first comment directed to me in the first minute of the first day by a faculty member I had just met was, ‘You must join the department basketball team!’”

    Tyson was offended, but he liked basketball, so he signed up anyway. He also joined UT’s competitive dance, rowing, and wrestling teams—unusual activities for a PhD student. “I should’ve spent more time in the lab,” Tyson admits, “but that wasn’t me. I took my studies very seriously, but I also did these other pursuits.”

    http://alcalde.texasexes.org/2012/02/star-power/

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  140. donut says:
    @george
    So why do you need to know about fire fighting to go into a program to teach you about firefighting? It looks to me like a system designed to advantage children of fire fighters and people from the suburbs with volunteer fire departments.

    In this website anybody that gets this many replies is a troll .

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  141. Anonymous says: • Website • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous

    “Has Tyson done any real science? He seems to be a media celebrity, but when I look in the Smithsonian/NASA ADS, I can find no record of scholarly work in science, except for popular books and social commentary. Is he in fact a practicing astrophysicist?"

    Not since graduate school (he did not successfully progress towards a degree at UT/Austin, and convinced Columbia to give him a second try). Aside from the obligatory papers describing his dissertation, he’s got a paper on how to take dome flats, a bizarre paper speculating about an asteroid hitting Uranus, and courtesy mentions *very* late in the author lists of a few big projects in which it is unclear what, if anything, of substance he contributed. No first author papers of any real significance whatsoever. Nor is there any evidence that he has been awarded any telescope time on significant instruments as PI since grad school, despite the incredibly inflated claims in his published CVs. He cozied up to Bush and pushed Bush’s version of man to the Moon, Mars, and Beyond, and now gets appointed to just about every high level political advisory board. To an actual astronomer, this is almost beyond inconceivable. It’s just bizarre. To answer Delong’s question, no: he is not a practicing astrophysicist. – Don Barry, Ph.D. Dept. of Astronomy, Cornell University
     

    At the moment I’m taking Dr. Barry’s assessment with a grain of salt. Looks like Tyson’s authored 5 papers as well as co-authored a lot more: http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/curriculum-vitae#research

    I’m not completely sympathetic to Neil deGrasse Tyson. I’m compiling my own list of Tyson errors: http://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-degrasse-tyson.html

    But if I talk smack about him, I want it to be well documented smack, not just hear say.

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  142. Jefferson says:

    I remember the television show Rescue Me. It was mostly Irish and Italian firefighters, with 1 token Puerto Rican and 1 token African American.

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  143. @Anon
    In that case, truckers ought to have the same medical issues, but I've never heard of them having any "seat belts disturbing their donut bellies" problems. The disabilities probably have to do with 40 years of having to get into sudden fights with violent criminals.

    Your anti-cop remark makes you sound like someone who's had a run-in with the police recently. What did you do?

    Nothing. Anyone with at least half a brain knows that cops are assholes.

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  144. Rob McX says:
    @Triumph104
    Ninety percent of the test takers will pass the French baccalauréat exam. In 1960, only 11 percent of all French 18 -year-olds passed the exam, in 1982 28 percent.

    I have heard that university degrees don't have much value in France. I believe Zacarias Moussaoui was unable to find gainful employment after graduating from French university. He later earned a master's degree in London. While in London he started practicing Islam and supposedly met extremists.

    High-ranking official and businessmen usually attend grandes écoles instead of universities.

    Admission to the “grandes écoles” and “French universities” is very different. Except for certain special academic programs, French universities are required by law to admit any student having completed the national baccalauréat, regardless of students' other grades or qualifications. This is in contrast with the highly selective admissions system for French "grandes écoles", as explained below.

    To be admitted into one of the French "grandes écoles", most students study in a two-year preparatory program in one of the CPGE before taking a set of highly competitive national exams. Different exams are required by groups (called "banques") of different schools. The national exams are sets of written tests, given over the course of several weeks, that challenge the student on the intensive studies of the previous two years. During the summer, those students who succeed in the written exams then take a further set of exams, usually one-hour oral exams, during which they are given a problem to solve. After 20 minutes of preparation, the candidate presents the solution to a professor, who challenges the candidate on the answer and the assumptions being made. Afterwards, candidates receive a final national ranking which determines admission to the grandes écoles of choice.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles#Today
     

    Most of the governing class who have engineered the ruin of France over the last few decades are graduates of the grandes écoles, especially the École nationale d’administration.

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  145. @Triumph104
    Ninety percent of the test takers will pass the French baccalauréat exam. In 1960, only 11 percent of all French 18 -year-olds passed the exam, in 1982 28 percent.

    I have heard that university degrees don't have much value in France. I believe Zacarias Moussaoui was unable to find gainful employment after graduating from French university. He later earned a master's degree in London. While in London he started practicing Islam and supposedly met extremists.

    High-ranking official and businessmen usually attend grandes écoles instead of universities.

    Admission to the “grandes écoles” and “French universities” is very different. Except for certain special academic programs, French universities are required by law to admit any student having completed the national baccalauréat, regardless of students' other grades or qualifications. This is in contrast with the highly selective admissions system for French "grandes écoles", as explained below.

    To be admitted into one of the French "grandes écoles", most students study in a two-year preparatory program in one of the CPGE before taking a set of highly competitive national exams. Different exams are required by groups (called "banques") of different schools. The national exams are sets of written tests, given over the course of several weeks, that challenge the student on the intensive studies of the previous two years. During the summer, those students who succeed in the written exams then take a further set of exams, usually one-hour oral exams, during which they are given a problem to solve. After 20 minutes of preparation, the candidate presents the solution to a professor, who challenges the candidate on the answer and the assumptions being made. Afterwards, candidates receive a final national ranking which determines admission to the grandes écoles of choice.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles#Today
     

    I always thought that Zacarias Moussaoui looked like Michael Wilbon.

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  146. Area Man says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    There was a cop applicant who was rejected for having too high of an IQ: http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

    Higher IQ police officers have been a boon in the past. From page 87 of the Bell Curve (via http://www.vdare.com/posts/quote-of-the-daychoosing-police-applicants-by-iq):

    A case study of what happens when a public service is able to hire from the top down on a test of cognitive ability, drawing on a large applicant pool, comes out of New York City. In April 1939, after a decade of economic depression, New York City attracted almost 30,000 men to a written and physical examination for 300 openings in the city’s police force, a selection ratio of approximately one in a hundred: [Herrnstein, R. J., Belke, T., and Taylor, J. 1990. New York City Police Dept. Class of June 1940: A Preliminary Report. Harvard University. Photocopy.]

    The written test was similar to the intelligence test then being given by the federal civil service. Positions were offered top down for a composite score on the mental and physical tests, with the mental test more heavily weighted by more than two to one.

    Not everyone accepted the offer, but, times being what they were, the 300 slots were filled by men who earned the top 350 scores.

    Inasmuch as the performance of police officers has been shown to correlate significantly with scores on intelligence tests, [Hunter, J. E. 1979. An Analysis of Validity, Differential Validity, Test Fairness, and Utility for the Philadelphia Police Officers Selection Examination Prepared by the Educational Testing Service. Report to the Philadelphia Federal District Court, Alvarez v. City of Philadelphia] this group of men should have made outstanding policemen.

    And they did, achieving extraordinarily successful careers in and out of policing. They attained far higher than average rank as police officers. Of the entire group, four have been police chiefs, four deputy commissioners, two chiefs of personnel, one a chief inspector, and one became commissioner of the New York Police Department.

    They suffered far fewer disciplinary penalties, and they contributed significantly to the study and teaching of policing and law enforcement. Many also had successful careers as lawyers, businessmen, and academics after leaving the police department

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonym
    Thanks for posting that. It was one of the main points of my post and your snippets were what I was remembering when I wrote it. Having none of your best and brightest going into the police force is a bit of a market failure IMO.
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  147. Discard says:
    @Anon
    In that case, truckers ought to have the same medical issues, but I've never heard of them having any "seat belts disturbing their donut bellies" problems. The disabilities probably have to do with 40 years of having to get into sudden fights with violent criminals.

    Your anti-cop remark makes you sound like someone who's had a run-in with the police recently. What did you do?

    “…donut bellies…” was a jest.

    I don’t believe that 80% of California Highway Patrolmen have real disabilities. Their job is patrolling the highways and writing tickets, not confronting robbers. Sort of like meter maids on steroids.

    I’m not anti-cop, I’m anti pension fraud.

    Read More
    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Traffic stops often turn deadly. Everyone knows this. The State Troopers aren't Andy Taylor and Barney Fife.
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  148. Jack D says:
    @Jimi
    I suspect they do believe that.

    LSAT entrance exam for law schools and the bar exam to practice law also have disparate impact on black and latinos but no judge is striking down those practices.

    Presumably because they feel it is justifiable to select for intelligence in practice of law, not justifiable to do so for firefighting.

    It’s even worse than that – the legal profession for blacks is a sort of Catch-22. They let them in to law school with low LSAT’s due to affirmative action, but once you get there, there’s no more affirmative action – most law school exams are anonymously graded (and not many electives especially for blacks with lower standards) and no A.A. on the bar exam. So something like 1/2 of all blacks who start law school never pass the bar exam. Meanwhile the law schools have their (loan) money and get to tout the % of blacks that they admit.

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  149. Hibernian says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    FDNY is under more pressure to hire minorities than other departments. Not only do you see lots of black and Hispanic hires these days, but even Asians and (even more implausibly) Indians/Pakistanis. They want the dept to reflect the city's diversity. NYPD is even worse.

    For a very long time though, the FDNY just hired lots of ethnic Italian/Irish guys. They were able to get away with it too. Much better than the NYPD.

    In Chicago CFD stayed more Irish dominated, longer, than CPD.

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  150. Hibernian says:
    @Big Bill

    I’d strongly advise any young man to consider a career in firefighting.
     
    Only if you are in a rich white city: one in which the NAM tax burden +public payroll + pensions is not crushing, like Chicago or Detroit.

    Not Fresno or Newark or Baltimore or any of the dozens of cities and counties that have lost their tax base and borrow money they can never pay back.

    Preferably a banksta city like New York that can collect as much money from the elite as necessary to pay salaries and FD pensions (and who in turn extract THEIR wealth from pension funds and working stiffs in the rest of the country).

    Not too long ago NYC was known for having very low police starting salaries. The cops could eventually earn a decent salary but it took a long time, maybe 10 years. NYC allows them to live out of the city and many live far outside the city for affordable housing, resulting in brutally long commutes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    NYC allows them to live out of the city and many live far outside the city for affordable housing, resulting in brutally long commutes.
     
    We owned a house right outside the city, though we weren't there a lot. The next-door neighbor was with the NYPD. He always had the best fireworks, and would give them out to the kids on the block. Rumor had it that they were confiscated in the city, where they were much more strictly controlled than in the rest of the state.

    I've always been wary of the argument that cops should be able to live wherever they please, because they'll end up enforcing statutes that don't apply to themselves.

    On the other hand, this man introduced me to politics-- I stood on his lawn in kneepants holding a Goldwater sign, annoying my parents. A cherished memory.

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  151. MarkinLA says:
    @Anon
    In that case, truckers ought to have the same medical issues, but I've never heard of them having any "seat belts disturbing their donut bellies" problems. The disabilities probably have to do with 40 years of having to get into sudden fights with violent criminals.

    Your anti-cop remark makes you sound like someone who's had a run-in with the police recently. What did you do?

    The disabilities probably have to do with 40 years of having to get into sudden fights with violent criminals.

    No, it has to do with no real effort by the state to push back against phony disability claims.

    Read More
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  152. Hibernian says:
    @TrumpMonster
    Except that these jobs don't really exist (better buildings,materials, education,prevention, etc municipal cut backs because of the aforementioned) unless you fill a quota. If you don't fit the quota it s because you were hired years ago. Thus when that tier retires we an entire department full shit tier hires. It's why these tests matter, God help us.

    Any large, old, city is filled with firetraps, commercial, residential, and industrial. Often they’re occupied. Also, people do stupid things. Additionally, there’s no such thing as a fireproof building, no matter how modern. The McCormack Place fire in Chicago in (I think) the early or mid ’60s showed that. (It was built without a sprinkler system because it was all steel, glass, and concrete, neglecting the flammable contents of an exhibition hall, and the large open spaces through which fire could spread quickly. Fortunately it was very lightly occupied at the time the fire was detected.) There will be a need for many good firefighters many years into the future.

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  153. Hibernian says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    utu, My trade union had a large group of masons, I remember the rings they wore, membership greatly improved your yearly income.

    Were they brick, stone, or cement Masons?

    Read More
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  154. Hibernian says:
    @Discard
    "…donut bellies…" was a jest.

    I don't believe that 80% of California Highway Patrolmen have real disabilities. Their job is patrolling the highways and writing tickets, not confronting robbers. Sort of like meter maids on steroids.

    I'm not anti-cop, I'm anti pension fraud.

    Traffic stops often turn deadly. Everyone knows this. The State Troopers aren’t Andy Taylor and Barney Fife.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Discard
    Traffic stops on state highways do not often turn deadly. Traffic stops in ghettos and barrios would be a different case. The California Highway Patrol is there to relieve local agencies from routine traffic duties on main highways.

    They are also responsible for inspecting school buses and investigating any accident involving a school bus.
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  155. prosa123 says: • Website

    Another way to make serious money in the NYC area is to snag a union job with the commuter railroads, Metro North or the Long Island Rail Road (the subway isn’t quite as lucrative). High pay, lavish benefits, a very relaxed pace of work, and early retirement with huge pensions. Competition for jobs is so monstrous getting one is like winning the lottery.

    Peter

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    LIRR is notorious for a majority of retirees on disability pensions. Several years ago, handful of doctors were convicted of fraud for signing off on the medical disabilities--but the state never went after the pensioners receiving the fraudulent disability benefits. Go figure.
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  156. Ed says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    I also think the presence of lots of Italians and Irish makes a difference. They tend to be much "meaner" than whites in other parts of the country. They're not much into the idea of white guilt. They fought neighborhood integration and busing much harder than whites in other parts of the country. As recently as the 80s, the east coast had overwhelmingly white housing projects.

    Of course, these days, their ethnic solidarity and clout isn't quite what it used to be.

    That maybe but they’re also the group most responsible for this country’s leftward slide that appears to be increasingly irreversible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Discard
    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country's leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians.
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  157. Incidentally, they already do this with Registered Nurses in California. It used to be that nurses were admitted to nursing schools based strictly on grades and test scores and strictly on relative merit. But the powers that be were tired of all-white and Asian nursing school classes so they reduced the minimal standard and then instituted a lottery. I assume other states are doing this as well.

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  158. Discard says:
    @Ed
    That maybe but they're also the group most responsible for this country's leftward slide that appears to be increasingly irreversible.

    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians
     
    Why? Jews have always been seen as alien, if sometimes entertaining. Watching the Kennedys and other "ethnics" veer left was much more corrupting.

    And don't forget that Franklin Roosevelt, Hugh Hefner, and Harry Blackmun were mainline WASPs. No Jew could touch any of them for negative influence.
    , @Anonymous
    Consider the literally immeasurable damage wrought on the good ol' puritan Republic by the Kennedy clan. All of them.
    , @Jefferson
    "If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians."

    The Irish are disproportionately overrepresented among Left Wing Goys in this country. The Irish let the LBGT community have their own parade floats at St. Patrick's Day parades.

    Irish Central is a Left Wing news rag that only endorses Democrats for presidents and writes pro-amnesty/pro-open borders articles that compares Hispanics and Muslims to Ellis Island Irish immigrants.

    If I was Irish, I sure as hell would not want to be compared to some first cousin marrying Towel Head Sand person.
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  159. Discard says:
    @Hibernian
    Traffic stops often turn deadly. Everyone knows this. The State Troopers aren't Andy Taylor and Barney Fife.

    Traffic stops on state highways do not often turn deadly. Traffic stops in ghettos and barrios would be a different case. The California Highway Patrol is there to relieve local agencies from routine traffic duties on main highways.

    They are also responsible for inspecting school buses and investigating any accident involving a school bus.

    Read More
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  160. @Hibernian
    Not too long ago NYC was known for having very low police starting salaries. The cops could eventually earn a decent salary but it took a long time, maybe 10 years. NYC allows them to live out of the city and many live far outside the city for affordable housing, resulting in brutally long commutes.

    NYC allows them to live out of the city and many live far outside the city for affordable housing, resulting in brutally long commutes.

    We owned a house right outside the city, though we weren’t there a lot. The next-door neighbor was with the NYPD. He always had the best fireworks, and would give them out to the kids on the block. Rumor had it that they were confiscated in the city, where they were much more strictly controlled than in the rest of the state.

    I’ve always been wary of the argument that cops should be able to live wherever they please, because they’ll end up enforcing statutes that don’t apply to themselves.

    On the other hand, this man introduced me to politics– I stood on his lawn in kneepants holding a Goldwater sign, annoying my parents. A cherished memory.

    Read More
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  161. @Discard
    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country's leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians.

    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians

    Why? Jews have always been seen as alien, if sometimes entertaining. Watching the Kennedys and other “ethnics” veer left was much more corrupting.

    And don’t forget that Franklin Roosevelt, Hugh Hefner, and Harry Blackmun were mainline WASPs. No Jew could touch any of them for negative influence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax
    Hefner is Lebanese.
    , @Discard
    Given that WASPs were the founding population of the U.S., it's hardly surprising that some of the worst people in our history have been WASPs, just as the worst people in Japanese history are Japanese. But none of the three people you mentioned are WASPs, nor Irish or Italian for that matter. Roosevelt was Dutch, Blackmun German, and Malcolm X-Lax has said that Hefner was Lebanese. You seem to be confused about ethnicity.
    And Emmanuel Celler, Jewish author of the 1965 immigration act surpasses any of your three villains in negative influence.
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  162. @Reg Cæsar

    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians
     
    Why? Jews have always been seen as alien, if sometimes entertaining. Watching the Kennedys and other "ethnics" veer left was much more corrupting.

    And don't forget that Franklin Roosevelt, Hugh Hefner, and Harry Blackmun were mainline WASPs. No Jew could touch any of them for negative influence.

    Hefner is Lebanese.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Citation?

    I'm asking because I'm keeping a little list of Guys Who, Surprisingly Enough, Aren't Jewish and I might write it up when Hef, who is #1 on it, finally drops dead.
    , @Anonymous
    Going by surname, I had always assumed that his ancestors hailed, at least, from Germany.
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  163. The Mayflower sailed from Tyre?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rob McX, @Anonymous
    Sure, that's not a typo for 'Tyne' as in 'River Tyne', Newcastle, England?
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  164. Rob McX says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    The Mayflower sailed from Tyre?
    Read More
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  165. Anonym says:
    @Area Man
    Higher IQ police officers have been a boon in the past. From page 87 of the Bell Curve (via http://www.vdare.com/posts/quote-of-the-daychoosing-police-applicants-by-iq):

    A case study of what happens when a public service is able to hire from the top down on a test of cognitive ability, drawing on a large applicant pool, comes out of New York City. In April 1939, after a decade of economic depression, New York City attracted almost 30,000 men to a written and physical examination for 300 openings in the city’s police force, a selection ratio of approximately one in a hundred: [Herrnstein, R. J., Belke, T., and Taylor, J. 1990. New York City Police Dept. Class of June 1940: A Preliminary Report. Harvard University. Photocopy.]

    The written test was similar to the intelligence test then being given by the federal civil service. Positions were offered top down for a composite score on the mental and physical tests, with the mental test more heavily weighted by more than two to one.

    Not everyone accepted the offer, but, times being what they were, the 300 slots were filled by men who earned the top 350 scores.

    Inasmuch as the performance of police officers has been shown to correlate significantly with scores on intelligence tests, [Hunter, J. E. 1979. An Analysis of Validity, Differential Validity, Test Fairness, and Utility for the Philadelphia Police Officers Selection Examination Prepared by the Educational Testing Service. Report to the Philadelphia Federal District Court, Alvarez v. City of Philadelphia] this group of men should have made outstanding policemen.

    And they did, achieving extraordinarily successful careers in and out of policing. They attained far higher than average rank as police officers. Of the entire group, four have been police chiefs, four deputy commissioners, two chiefs of personnel, one a chief inspector, and one became commissioner of the New York Police Department.

    They suffered far fewer disciplinary penalties, and they contributed significantly to the study and teaching of policing and law enforcement. Many also had successful careers as lawyers, businessmen, and academics after leaving the police department
     

    Thanks for posting that. It was one of the main points of my post and your snippets were what I was remembering when I wrote it. Having none of your best and brightest going into the police force is a bit of a market failure IMO.

    Read More
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  166. @Malcolm X-Lax
    Hefner is Lebanese.

    Citation?

    I’m asking because I’m keeping a little list of Guys Who, Surprisingly Enough, Aren’t Jewish and I might write it up when Hef, who is #1 on it, finally drops dead.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rob McX
    See my link at comment 164 for Hefner's ancestry (you should probably include comedian Steven Wright on that list).
    , @Anonymous
    So, what's the skinny on Hef?

    The seemingly immortal prophet of our present pornographic age.
    , @Anonymous
    I think the confusion may arise from the Lebanese businessman Pepe Abed, who was know as the "Hugh Hefner of the Middle East."

    From Wiki:

    "His parents were from Nebraska... Hefner's mother was of Swedish descent, and his father had German and English ancestry. Through his father's line, Hefner has stated that he is a direct descendant of Plymouth governor William Bradford. He has described his family as "conservative, Midwestern, [and] Methodist"."


    I doubt Lebanese ancestry could figure in early 20th century Nebraska. But curious, why do you find it surprising Hefner is not Jewish?
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    I have to retract my comment. I thought I had heard somewhere some time ago that Hefner was of Lebanese descent. Can't find anything to support that. I've had it in my head for so many years now that when I look at him, he actually looks kind of arab to me. Should have confirmed before I posted. Apologies!
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  167. Discard says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians
     
    Why? Jews have always been seen as alien, if sometimes entertaining. Watching the Kennedys and other "ethnics" veer left was much more corrupting.

    And don't forget that Franklin Roosevelt, Hugh Hefner, and Harry Blackmun were mainline WASPs. No Jew could touch any of them for negative influence.

    Given that WASPs were the founding population of the U.S., it’s hardly surprising that some of the worst people in our history have been WASPs, just as the worst people in Japanese history are Japanese. But none of the three people you mentioned are WASPs, nor Irish or Italian for that matter. Roosevelt was Dutch, Blackmun German, and Malcolm X-Lax has said that Hefner was Lebanese. You seem to be confused about ethnicity.
    And Emmanuel Celler, Jewish author of the 1965 immigration act surpasses any of your three villains in negative influence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    And Emmanuel Celler, Jewish author of the 1965 immigration act surpasses any of your three villains in negative influence.
     
    As does Franz Boas. And who's say that the gentiles Reg mentioned didn't act as they did at least partly as a result of Jewish influence on them?

    Anyway, the point isn't single Jews; it's the Jewish community as an organized entity. Maintaining preposterous lies like the sameness of the races requires a sort of concerted effort that can come only from an organized group coordinating the propaganda received by the public.

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  168. Rob McX says:

    See my link at comment 164 for Hefner’s ancestry.

    Read More
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  169. Rob McX says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Citation?

    I'm asking because I'm keeping a little list of Guys Who, Surprisingly Enough, Aren't Jewish and I might write it up when Hef, who is #1 on it, finally drops dead.

    See my link at comment 164 for Hefner’s ancestry (you should probably include comedian Steven Wright on that list).

    Read More
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  170. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    Citation?

    I'm asking because I'm keeping a little list of Guys Who, Surprisingly Enough, Aren't Jewish and I might write it up when Hef, who is #1 on it, finally drops dead.

    So, what’s the skinny on Hef?

    The seemingly immortal prophet of our present pornographic age.

    Read More
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  171. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Malcolm X-Lax
    Hefner is Lebanese.

    Going by surname, I had always assumed that his ancestors hailed, at least, from Germany.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Taking a quick look at an online photograph, I must say that Hef - the crafty old satyr - looks vastly more Lebanese than German.
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  172. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Discard
    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country's leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians.

    Consider the literally immeasurable damage wrought on the good ol’ puritan Republic by the Kennedy clan. All of them.

    Read More
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  173. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    Going by surname, I had always assumed that his ancestors hailed, at least, from Germany.

    Taking a quick look at an online photograph, I must say that Hef – the crafty old satyr – looks vastly more Lebanese than German.

    Read More
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  174. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Reg Cæsar
    The Mayflower sailed from Tyre?

    Sure, that’s not a typo for ‘Tyne’ as in ‘River Tyne’, Newcastle, England?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Brutusale
    Google is your friend, on:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon
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  175. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    Citation?

    I'm asking because I'm keeping a little list of Guys Who, Surprisingly Enough, Aren't Jewish and I might write it up when Hef, who is #1 on it, finally drops dead.

    I think the confusion may arise from the Lebanese businessman Pepe Abed, who was know as the “Hugh Hefner of the Middle East.”

    From Wiki:

    “His parents were from Nebraska… Hefner’s mother was of Swedish descent, and his father had German and English ancestry. Through his father’s line, Hefner has stated that he is a direct descendant of Plymouth governor William Bradford. He has described his family as “conservative, Midwestern, [and] Methodist”.”

    I doubt Lebanese ancestry could figure in early 20th century Nebraska. But curious, why do you find it surprising Hefner is not Jewish?

    Read More
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  176. “what kind of chainsaw should you use to cut through a steel door?”

    Someone else’s.

    Read More
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  177. @Steve Sailer
    Citation?

    I'm asking because I'm keeping a little list of Guys Who, Surprisingly Enough, Aren't Jewish and I might write it up when Hef, who is #1 on it, finally drops dead.

    I have to retract my comment. I thought I had heard somewhere some time ago that Hefner was of Lebanese descent. Can’t find anything to support that. I’ve had it in my head for so many years now that when I look at him, he actually looks kind of arab to me. Should have confirmed before I posted. Apologies!

    Read More
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  178. 22pp22 says:
    @Trelane
    And did any of you ever see this (even though I posted it months ago):

    https://youtu.be/Cz4AjgPwPvk

    I saw your post and enjoyed it.

    Read More
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  179. fish says:
    @Jimi
    I suspect elite judges think a fireman's job involves no knowledge or smartness. That its just a matter of running into a building with a hose.

    In NYC you you have 150 year old rotten wood death traps standing side by side with new sprinklered buildings that compartmentalize to prevent the spread of fire. And all the buildings that come in between with varying degrees of safety. Firefighters need to know all types of building and their particular weaknesses and strengths.

    Check out this introductory manual designed to teach NYC firemen the differences:

    http://home.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/training/pdf/proby_manual/09_building_descriptions.pdf

    You don't need to be a genius to figure this stuff out but you need to have a certain level of intelligence and diligence.

    “In NYC you you have 150 year old rotten wood death traps standing side by side with new sprinklered buildings that compartmentalize to prevent the spread of fire. And all the buildings that come in between with varying degrees of safety. Firefighters need to know all types of building and their particular weaknesses and strengths.”

    Eh….whaddya going to do……if a crew full of room temperature IQ NAMs run into a building and burn to death because they weren’t smart enough to adequately apprise the situation I guess that’s just the price of making the De Blasios of this world feel morally superior!

    ….and isn’t that really what’s important?

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  180. @Discard
    Given that WASPs were the founding population of the U.S., it's hardly surprising that some of the worst people in our history have been WASPs, just as the worst people in Japanese history are Japanese. But none of the three people you mentioned are WASPs, nor Irish or Italian for that matter. Roosevelt was Dutch, Blackmun German, and Malcolm X-Lax has said that Hefner was Lebanese. You seem to be confused about ethnicity.
    And Emmanuel Celler, Jewish author of the 1965 immigration act surpasses any of your three villains in negative influence.

    And Emmanuel Celler, Jewish author of the 1965 immigration act surpasses any of your three villains in negative influence.

    As does Franz Boas. And who’s say that the gentiles Reg mentioned didn’t act as they did at least partly as a result of Jewish influence on them?

    Anyway, the point isn’t single Jews; it’s the Jewish community as an organized entity. Maintaining preposterous lies like the sameness of the races requires a sort of concerted effort that can come only from an organized group coordinating the propaganda received by the public.

    Read More
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  181. FDNY candidates ​will take an entry exam that quizzes them on topics like African ​killer bees and on math questions such as comparing veggie chips to pretzels, but little on firefighting.

    With the city planning to give the first FDNY entry exam in five years in 2017, critics say the test has been dumbed down since a judge ruled ​a former exam discriminated against minorities.”

    True, obviously…but I predict the White pool of applicants will still do disproportionately well in answering questions based on the sort of irrelevant nonsense of which the test now consists.

    Read More
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  182. Jefferson says:
    @Discard
    If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country's leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians.

    “If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians.”

    The Irish are disproportionately overrepresented among Left Wing Goys in this country. The Irish let the LBGT community have their own parade floats at St. Patrick’s Day parades.

    Irish Central is a Left Wing news rag that only endorses Democrats for presidents and writes pro-amnesty/pro-open borders articles that compares Hispanics and Muslims to Ellis Island Irish immigrants.

    If I was Irish, I sure as hell would not want to be compared to some first cousin marrying Towel Head Sand person.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Brutusale
    The Irish DO drive the Left in Greater Boston, but there's a hard core of conservative Irish that will never submit to anything, like gays marching in THEIR parade, as represented by the late John "Wacko" Hurley.

    Wacko was the driver of the successful lawsuit to control the parade in Boston:

    http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/herald_bulldog/2015/11/south_bostons_john_wacko_hurley_dead_at_85
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  183. Forbes says:
    @wren
    It's a good thing that other public safety professions, such as air traffic controllers, still value intelligence and skill over skin color.

    Oh, wait.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/affirmative-action-lands-in-the-air-traffic-control-tower-1433283292

    Not behind firewall link. Good for about a week.

    http:/on.wsj.com/1LNoU18

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  184. Forbes says:
    @prosa123
    Another way to make serious money in the NYC area is to snag a union job with the commuter railroads, Metro North or the Long Island Rail Road (the subway isn't quite as lucrative). High pay, lavish benefits, a very relaxed pace of work, and early retirement with huge pensions. Competition for jobs is so monstrous getting one is like winning the lottery.

    Peter

    LIRR is notorious for a majority of retirees on disability pensions. Several years ago, handful of doctors were convicted of fraud for signing off on the medical disabilities–but the state never went after the pensioners receiving the fraudulent disability benefits. Go figure.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Hey, it's not their fault the doctor said Yes.
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  185. Calogero says:

    It seems like it would be a good idea to go buy a fire extinguisher if you haven’t already.

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  186. Brutusale says:
    @Anonymous
    Sure, that's not a typo for 'Tyne' as in 'River Tyne', Newcastle, England?
    Read More
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  187. Brutusale says:
    @Jefferson
    "If I had to put money on which ethnic group was most responsible for the country’s leftward slide, it would be Jews, not the Irish or Italians."

    The Irish are disproportionately overrepresented among Left Wing Goys in this country. The Irish let the LBGT community have their own parade floats at St. Patrick's Day parades.

    Irish Central is a Left Wing news rag that only endorses Democrats for presidents and writes pro-amnesty/pro-open borders articles that compares Hispanics and Muslims to Ellis Island Irish immigrants.

    If I was Irish, I sure as hell would not want to be compared to some first cousin marrying Towel Head Sand person.

    The Irish DO drive the Left in Greater Boston, but there’s a hard core of conservative Irish that will never submit to anything, like gays marching in THEIR parade, as represented by the late John “Wacko” Hurley.

    Wacko was the driver of the successful lawsuit to control the parade in Boston:

    http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/herald_bulldog/2015/11/south_bostons_john_wacko_hurley_dead_at_85

    Read More
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  188. @Forbes
    LIRR is notorious for a majority of retirees on disability pensions. Several years ago, handful of doctors were convicted of fraud for signing off on the medical disabilities--but the state never went after the pensioners receiving the fraudulent disability benefits. Go figure.

    Hey, it’s not their fault the doctor said Yes.

    Read More
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