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From the Washington Post:

E.U. nations pull welcome mats for migrants, imposing new restrictions

By William Booth, Anthony Faiola and Michael Birnbaum September 17 at 5:54 PM

ZAGREB, Croatia — European nations once friendly to refugees abruptly yanked their welcome mats Thursday, as Germany considered slashing its benefits and Croatia announced it was closing most of its road links with Serbia “until further notice.”

The German measures would overhaul asylum codes to stem the massive flow of migrants into Europe, scaling back the generous policies that have made Germany a beacon for desperate war refugees and economic migrants pouring out of the Middle East, Africa and beyond.

In a 128-page draft law produced by the German Interior Ministry and obtained by The Washington Post, the government would speed asylum procedures, cut cash benefits, hasten deportations and punish those with false claims and phony paperwork.

The tough new measures, the draft bill states, are needed to cope with the huge influx of refugees into Germany, where 800,000 asylum applications were expected this year in a country with a population of 81 million.

In Croatia, meanwhile, leaders reversed themselves a day after they promised to greet asylum seekers with open arms — a greeting that stood in sharp contrast to a decision by neighboring Hungary to seal its frontier with razor wire and riot police.

Croatia’s decision to close roads crossing into Serbia raised the risk of pushing asylum seekers into the area’s fields and forests, which are littered with land mines from the Balkans wars in the 1990s.

The crush of refugees and migrants has shocked European leaders even as they struggle to find a common strategy to deal with their biggest humanitarian crisis in decades.

Here’s an idea for a strategy:

1. Perimeter defense: Keep the uninvited out of Europe and out of the EU

2. Defense in depth

The proposed German law would provide food and a ticket to return to the first European Union country the asylum seeker entered, instead of housing and cash benefits. That could mean far fewer people would win protection in Germany or elsewhere in Europe, since countries such as Hungary are generally declining to award refugee status.

In addition, asylum seekers deemed to be withholding vital information — such as their passports or proof of their country of origin — would be denied benefits. Asylum seekers also would need to remain in crowded reception centers for six months, rather than three, before earning the right to subsidized housing.

Those who failed to comply with orders to leave Germany could be subject to forced removal without advance notice.

It was unclear whether the proposed German law, which must be approved by Parliament before it can take effect, would continue to make exceptions for Syrians fleeing civil war.

“This draft counteracts the new German welcome culture,” said Karl Kopp, spokesman for the pro-refugee organization ProAsyl. “It contains a toughness and populism that is not acceptable.”

In announcing the closure of most roads into Serbia until further notice, the Croatian Interior Ministry said late Thursday that it took the step after more than 11,000 people arrived in a 24-hour period.

“Don’t come anymore here. Our capacities are full,” Croatian Interior Minister Ranko Ostojic said earlier in English near his nation’s border with Serbia. “If you want to save your life, please go to reception centers in Serbia or Macedonia or Greece.

“Anyone who is sending a message that this is an open door for the European Union, and that they can go to Germany and Slovenia . . . it’s a lie,” he said.

Croatia’s president, Kolinda Grabar-Kitarovic, asked her nation’s military to be ready to defend the border if necessary.

Croatian President Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović

Croatia’s reversal came after hundreds of asylum seekers scuffled with Croatian riot police at the Tovarnik rail station near the Serbian border after waiting for hours in the late-summer heat with little food and water. …

On Thursday, one of the officials who helped spark the onslaught resigned. Germany’s top migration official, Manfred Schmidt, stepped down for “personal reasons” less than a month after his agency posted a message on Twitter that had far-reaching consequences.

The announcement that Germany would no longer deport Syrian asylum seekers to the E.U. country they entered — often Greece or Italy — helped fuel fresh waves of refugees who saw Germany as opening its arms.

With Europe bitterly divided, bigger and richer countries are increasingly lashing out at poorer partners that have refused to take in many people.

“Germany is helping. The question is, who is helping Germany?” German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel asked in a video released Thursday.

You know, Germany, you are supposed to be in a Union with other Europeans. If you choose to betray Europeans for the denizens of other continents, it’s a little rich to act like you are upholding European unity.

He accused other countries of taking E.U. money, then “hiding in the bushes when they have to take responsibility.”

Hungary has so far taken the harshest measures to block the refugee tide, using tear gas, pepper spray and water cannons Wednesday to repel a crowd of migrants who threw stones and debris at police along the border fence.

[Europe asks: Why no mention of refu­gee crisis in GOP debate?]

“We don’t like the fence,” the Hungarian government’s chief spokesman, Zoltan Kovacs, said Thursday. “But it seems to be working to protect the country’s borders, to stop illegal migration. Obviously, we are going to continue with that: keeping the fence, protecting the fence by police.” …

Hungarian authorities said the number of people crossing into their nation had all but dried up: 277 Wednesday, down from 9,380 Monday. Some of the few asylum seekers on Wednesday who made it into Hungary said that their applications were summarily denied and they were sent back into Serbia.

By Thursday, the camp along the Serbian-Hungarian border was quickly emptying as asylum seekers paid 20 euros apiece to get on buses that were ferrying them to the Croatian border.

So far the Serbs have been trying to be the perfect EU candidates, passing along the Muslims with a smile. Now, though, the Serbs are asking the EU powerbrokers: Please tell us what European Values means you want us to do. If you want us to help the Muslims along, we’ll do that. But if you want us to be not nice, please spell it out for us, we’re not that clever. We’re just poor dumb tough Serbs.

Maybe the endgame is that the Germans and Austrians are setting the Serbs up to be the Fall Guys for Merkel’s Boner. Payback for 6/28/1914 and all that. Maybe ultimately, the Serbs are going to have to go all 1389 on Merkel’s Muslim invaders, and then the Austrians and Germans can gasp and fan themselves and blame it all on the backwards Serbs and set back Serbia’s EU application by decades, while inwardly thanking fate that they dodged this idiotic bullet they shot at themselves.

 
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  1. eah says:

    The crush of refugees and migrants has shocked European leaders

    Morons. The obviousness of this has been epic for months and months. Even longer. What did they think was going to happen when eg the Italian navy kept intercepting the boats and bringing the people on them to European soil?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The genesis of the crisis can be traced back years ago, to the era of various shithead leftists Italian, Spanish other governments, giving mass 'amnesties' to criminals who successfully broke the law.
    , @Kat Grey
    I agree it was an Italian mess augmented by the Italian media shrewdly exploiting the emotional nature of the average Italian by showing streams of sad-eyed babies being taken off the boats (although we all know that over 90% of those invading Europe of men of military age).
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  2. Arclight says:

    Belatedly and somewhat surprisingly, Germany and the EU are learning that policy based on moral vanity carries a steep price.

    Read More
  3. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Shock! Horror! Crisis!

    The European political class is actually confronted by the real world as it is – and not reading bullshit economic/political theories written by fools with ideological axes to grind.

    Read More
  4. George says:

    Great wall of Israel can’t stop Chinese.

    Israel brings in Chinese workers at the expense of everybody
    The importing of foreign laborers has been linked to massive corruption, indentured servitude and the ossifying of the construction industry. The Chinese might be coming all the same.

    http://www.haaretz.com/business/.premium-1.676500

    Read More
    • Replies: @tbraton
    I'm a little surprised Israel is not bringing in workers from North Korea. I understand that they have plenty of Chosan people, who could fit right in.
    , @anon
    "Israel brings in Chinese workers at the expense of everybody"

    Yeah it often starts with construction.

    For any single employer importing illegals to undercut wages makes sense but when they all do it for long enough the economy grinds to a halt because no one has any spending money.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
  5. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    ““This draft counteracts the new German welcome culture,” said Karl Kopp, spokesman for the pro-refugee organization ProAsyl. “It contains a toughness and populism that is not acceptable.””

    How can the same law both counteract the German welcome culture AND be populistic? This isn’t even coherent.

    Read More
  6. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @eah
    The crush of refugees and migrants has shocked European leaders

    Morons. The obviousness of this has been epic for months and months. Even longer. What did they think was going to happen when eg the Italian navy kept intercepting the boats and bringing the people on them to European soil?

    The genesis of the crisis can be traced back years ago, to the era of various shithead leftists Italian, Spanish other governments, giving mass ‘amnesties’ to criminals who successfully broke the law.

    Read More
  7. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    The Economist now decides Eastern Europe needs the refugees most of all:

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag
    needs them more than other countries

    Ha ha ha. Yeah, flood your country with peoples of whom 90% are a net drain, all in hopes of filling jobs that don't need doing.
    , @Jonathan Silber
    ...the new psychiatric clinic and geriatric and dermatological wards cost $19m. But what the hospital in Bydgoszcz in north-west Poland does not have is enough nurses and carers...

    Rock-throwing, gate-crashing young Syrian male vagrants constitute the hot new all-natural European formula for getting rid of those unsightly dark circles and bags under Polish eyes.
    , @Big Bill
    That's what America needs, too: full employment for psychiatrists. It would be great for the psychiatrist community.

    And what better way to serve the psychiatrist community than import paranoid schizophrenics, psychopaths, shell shock, and PTSD victims from around the world?

    Each graduating shrink could be assigned a hundred crazy, traumatized immigrants upon graduation and have a lifelong caseload.

    It could be a growth industry for America. Self-replicating, too, what with the brutalized wives and rape victims the immigrants would produce.

    Think of the billions of dollars in GDP it would add to the economy.

    And shrink jobs are quality jobs. You need at least 20 years of formal education. It would be a boon for the academic community, too. Heck the spillover effects are phenomenal. We would also have to hire thousands of new college professors to teach the shrinks.

    Thank you, Economist! I have seen the light! Crazy refugee people from around the world. What an economic growth opportunity!
    , @Anonymous
    Of course, The Economist being The Economist completey neglects to mention in that article that trivial little fact that half the Polish workforce has decamped to the UK in this past decade.
  8. The Matron Merkel is threatening to kick out her live-in, lie-about, good-for-nothing young Syrian sponge of a boyfriend. But once he’s gone she’ll want him back, because even though her friends are saying he’s no good for her, she still loves him.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dcite
    For a minute I thought she really had a Syrian boyfriend. Fancy that .. then I got the analogy.
  9. Jamie_NYC says:

    We’re just poor dumb tough Serbs.

    Come on Steve; Serbs are at least as smart as some of the other peoples who are already in the EU (Romanians (heh), Bulgarians, Croats, …). What’s next – the stupid Poles jokes?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Federalist
    It's satire. He has the Serbs saying about themselves that they are dumb. The point is that the Serbs are not dumb but the EU higher-ups are.
    , @Hunsdon
    The emphasis, as I took it, was far more on the tough than on the dumb side, and a reminder that the provincial Serbs really were the front line in defending Europe from Muslims for a long time. Yes, this is an HBD blog ("the" HBD blog, rather!), but still.
    , @WhatEvvs
    He's being facetious.

    My favorite piece of Serbian stupidity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

    They didn't know you're not supposed to be able to shoot down a Stealth bomber.

    Vive la hongrie!
  10. bomag says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    The Economist now decides Eastern Europe needs the refugees most of all:
    https://twitter.com/pierrebri/status/644819027962036225

    needs them more than other countries

    Ha ha ha. Yeah, flood your country with peoples of whom 90% are a net drain, all in hopes of filling jobs that don’t need doing.

    Read More
  11. inertial says:

    “Going 1389″ must mean”getting slaughtered and losing their country to invaders.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @tbraton
    I heard a Syrian woman (pregnant btw and expecting to deliver in two weeks) on TV describe her husband as someone who had left the Syrian army because he feared losing his life fighting the enemies of the regime. So I don't think the Serbs will be encountering an armed professional army of Ottoman Turks the same way they did in 1389.
    , @Anonymous
    Maybe Steve slightly mixed up the numbers. If you switch 3 and 9, and then turn the number 9 upside down, you get from 1389 to 1683.
  12. Croatia’s decision to close roads crossing into Serbia raised the risk of pushing asylum seekers into the area’s fields and forests, which are littered with land mines

    Pro tip: Land mines are just what you want in a situation like this.

    [Europe asks: Why no mention of refu­gee crisis in GOP debate?]

    Maybe Jake Tapper didn’t want Trump to knock one out of the stands.

    Read More
    • Agree: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @Jonathan Silber
    Pro tip: Land mines are just what you want in a situation like this.

    A silver lining in the tragic, untimely death of Princess Di.
  13. bomag says:

    spokesman for the pro-refugee organization ProAsyl.

    We need fewer of these pro-invader groups and more pro-current resident groups.

    Pro-current resident groups used to include the government, but they too often are in the tank for the invaders.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill B.
    Never, ever, of course a spokesman for any group opposed to migration invasion. The only reason these open borders and inevitablist spokesmen exist is because they are funded by western governments, the UN or the likes of Soros.

    Naturally lazy journalists never factor this in when deciding to "balance" a government spokesman with a progressive activist. Indeed it never occurs to journalists that there might be indigenous peoples out there looking on aghast but, effectively, mute most of the time.
  14. It does look like Serbia is getting stuck with the hot potato but they do have an out — and it’s called Kosovo! Surely all these Muslim refugees wouldn’t mind seeking refuge in a “country” run by Muslims? Would they?

    It is interesting that the former Communist countries are now on the front lines saving European identity. Besides Hungary and the Balkans, in Poland, supporters of the football team Lech Poznan managed a boycott over the fact that one Euro per ticket was donated to refugees.

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/18/lech-poznan-europa-league-refugee

    What it comes down to is that Germany is only willing to take on the demographic handicap that millions of Muslim refugees represent on the condition all other European countries do the same. Germany cannot accept the relative decline in competitiveness that would result in allowing Eastern Europe to stay all white. This relative competitiveness factor is also one reason the US so voraciously exports Multicultural Cheap Labor Capitalism to Europe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    3,000 watched the game rather than the usual 20,000 - impressive solidarity.

    Also in the Guardian - call me old-fashioned, but we Brits queue patiently for trains and moan when they're late. But not these dynamic types. Germany is so lucky to be getting them.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/sep/18/fights-break-out-refugees-queue-croatia-station-video
  15. @Dave Pinsen
    The Economist now decides Eastern Europe needs the refugees most of all:
    https://twitter.com/pierrebri/status/644819027962036225

    …the new psychiatric clinic and geriatric and dermatological wards cost $19m. But what the hospital in Bydgoszcz in north-west Poland does not have is enough nurses and carers…

    Rock-throwing, gate-crashing young Syrian male vagrants constitute the hot new all-natural European formula for getting rid of those unsightly dark circles and bags under Polish eyes.

    Read More
  16. Big Bill says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    The Economist now decides Eastern Europe needs the refugees most of all:
    https://twitter.com/pierrebri/status/644819027962036225

    That’s what America needs, too: full employment for psychiatrists. It would be great for the psychiatrist community.

    And what better way to serve the psychiatrist community than import paranoid schizophrenics, psychopaths, shell shock, and PTSD victims from around the world?

    Each graduating shrink could be assigned a hundred crazy, traumatized immigrants upon graduation and have a lifelong caseload.

    It could be a growth industry for America. Self-replicating, too, what with the brutalized wives and rape victims the immigrants would produce.

    Think of the billions of dollars in GDP it would add to the economy.

    And shrink jobs are quality jobs. You need at least 20 years of formal education. It would be a boon for the academic community, too. Heck the spillover effects are phenomenal. We would also have to hire thousands of new college professors to teach the shrinks.

    Thank you, Economist! I have seen the light! Crazy refugee people from around the world. What an economic growth opportunity!

    Read More
  17. @Harry Baldwin
    Croatia’s decision to close roads crossing into Serbia raised the risk of pushing asylum seekers into the area’s fields and forests, which are littered with land mines

    Pro tip: Land mines are just what you want in a situation like this.

    [Europe asks: Why no mention of refu­gee crisis in GOP debate?]

    Maybe Jake Tapper didn't want Trump to knock one out of the stands.

    Pro tip: Land mines are just what you want in a situation like this.

    A silver lining in the tragic, untimely death of Princess Di.

    Read More
  18. kihowi says:

    “Pull welcome mats?” There’s often a correlation between the quality of an argument made and the quality of the metaphors employed. Yuck.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Williams

    Asylum seekers also would need to remain in crowded reception centers for six months, rather than three, before earning the right to subsidized housing.
     
    The author should grab his Merriam-Webster's and acquaint himself with the meaning of earn and right.
  19. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    It’s amazing how just one person and her party can in such a short time wreak such havoc on the continent of Europe. This idiocy could change the demographics of Europe forever. The Germans apparently didn’t think it necessary to consult with any of the other countries before taking steps that would affect them very deeply. What happens now to the invaders who don’t make it to Germany and onto their welfare gravy train? Will they roam around Europe in gypsy-like bands robbing and leeching off the natives? The invaders could be repatriated if the will to do so exists; millions were moved around during and after WWII so it can be accomplished. If there’s one thing the Balkans doesn’t need it’s Muslims; they have unpleasant memories of them. The Germans need to pay the bill for all this and start writing some big checks to everyone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rapparee

    This idiocy could change the demographics of Europe forever.... The invaders could be repatriated if the will to do so exists; millions were moved around during and after WWII so it can be accomplished.
     
    Your second statement is strong evidence against the first. Two alternative outcomes seem plausible:

    1. Anti-immigration parties make big headway in the coming decade, and European elites lose some of their enthusiasm for electing a new people. A bunch of cities are henceforth permanently saddled with cruddy Muslim and African ghettoes, but outside of these lousy neighborhoods, European life goes back to normal.

    2. European leaders keep their feet firmly glued to the accelerator as they drive toward the demographic cliff. Public anger grows, until groups like the English Defence League or Génération Identitaire start getting their hands on automatic rifles and Semtex (perhaps with the aid of military or police sympathizers). European life becomes very, very interesting for a while, while "refugees" conclude that Saxony is no longer a marked improvement on Syria.

    Sanity and basic human decency clearly recommend scenario 1, and I'm marginally optimistic that events will more-or-less happen that way, but Europe's political class are certainly crazy and reckless enough to precipitate scenario 2.
    , @Bill Jones
    What is absolutely shocking though not in the least surprising is that no matter the scale of the fuck-up, no matter how egregious the consequences for hundreds of millions of people across entire Continents there are never any personal consequences for the perpetrator.

    Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar.
  20. The proposed German law would provide food and a ticket to return to the first European Union country the asylum seeker entered

    The Germans are wrecking all of Europe for the third time in 100 years.

    Read More
    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Jonathan Silber
    The Germans are wrecking all of Europe for the third time in 100 years.

    This time with a Blitzkrieg of blind, unthinking moral preening.
    , @Anonymous
    Yeah, WW1, WW2 and multi-culturalism only originated with the Germans. Absolutelty no other parties involved in any of this.
    , @Matra
    They also contributed to the Bosnian war breaking out by unilaterally recognising Croatian independence before the Serb minority issue was dealt with. That decision was not based on international law but German domestic politics.

    A unified German state, which only came into existence in 1871, has been an unmitigated disaster for the people of Europe. I'd like to see it broken up into several smaller states - Bavaria etc.

  21. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I don’t know if the following is a trustworthy site (never heard of it)

    http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.1936/promises-of-free-willing-young-blonde-girls-attract-arabs-to-sweden.html

    Regarding the human traffickers’ advertisements it claims:

    There is also sexual content in the advertisements, according to Dala-Demokraten. Among other things, the Arabs are promised their own free young willing blond Swedish girlfriend if they manage to illegally get all the way to the promised land in northern Europe (article picture).

    “In reality one can say that the young Syrian men are lured to Sweden by the oldest trick in the book – money and girls. Pictures of blonde beauties are published, and that Swedish women require real men,” writes Dala-Demokraten.

    It links here

    http://www.dalademokraten.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige

    But the link seems to have been disappeared. I read it via Google translate before it disappeared. It said:

    On the whole it can be said that the young Syrian men lured to Sweden by the oldest tricks in the book – money and girls. The published pictures of blonde beauties and writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.

    Unfortunately I don’t have the original Swedish anymore, but when I did, altering which portions I gave to Google translate seemed to suggest that “writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.” was meant to mean that the traffikers were trying to convince the Syrian men that the Swedish girls were demonstrating because they were upset because they needed men.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fredrik
    I can confirm this article existed. The article is gone but exists in a sister paper.

    Link to news article:
    http://www.op.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige

    Link to screenshot from Dala-Demokraten.
    http://www.ladda-upp.se/bilder/gbjnqrwuintlx/

    Btw,
    Dala-Demokraten is from the left wing of the Social Democrats. These people are to the left of Bernie Sanders.
    , @fish
    Pussy.....you can move mountains with/for it!
    , @Bill B.
    Why not?

    It would gybe with the pornography they all see on the internet. From what we have seen of migrant attitudes the women of Europe better be prepared for a lot of enhanced Eve Teasing...
    , @ben tillman

    It links here

    http://www.dalademokraten.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige

    But the link seems to have been disappeared. I read it via Google translate before it disappeared. It said:
     
    It can be found here:

    http://www.op.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige

    This is your passage:

    På det hela taget kan man påstå att unga syriska män lockas till Sverige genom de äldsta tricken i boken – pengar och tjejer. Det publiceras bilder på blonda skönheter och man skriver att upprörda svenska kvinnor demonstrerar eftersom de kräver män.

    My translation:

    "On the whole, one can state that young Syrian men are lured to Sweden through the oldest tricks in the book -- money and girls. Pictures of blonde beauties are published, and it is written that upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they demand men."
  22. MLK says:

    Maybe the endgame is that the Germans and Austrians are setting the Serbs up to be the Fall Guys for Merkel’s Boner.

    Perhaps…

    It isn’t too early to note those in the prestige media and beyond that were once again played for fools. The term I coined for them is Digital Cannon Fodder. Thus your references to WWI are at least for me particularly apt. With regularity, war is declared and there is always a ready supply of eager recruits volunteering to be first out of the trenches. What distinguishes Digital Cannon Fodder from it’s original namesake is they can participate in as many battles as they like, only leaving their reputations dead or soon to be. Though I cannot remember the last time there was an official Body Count.

    Hillary’s email scandal is a classic example. “Okay, when I blow the whistle start running toward the enemy’s trenches yelling ‘Irrelevant!’ or ‘Ha ha, what a joke!’ Indeed, the Clintons are the husband and wife team equivalent of Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig.***

    “A Stroll Through The Trenches”

    http://www.historynet.com/field-marshal-sir-douglas-haig-world-war-is-worst-general.htm

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ed
    This is pedantic, and the overall comment is high quality, but though there is stiff competition for "worst general of World War I", the winner is probably this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cadorna.

    Haig is definitely in the running if you exclude the Italians.
  23. iSteveFan says:

    He accused other countries of taking E.U. money, then “hiding in the bushes when they have to take responsibility.”

    Since when is caring for non-Europeans the responsibility of any EU member?

    “We don’t like the fence,” the Hungarian government’s chief spokesman, Zoltan Kovacs, said Thursday. “But it seems to be working to protect the country’s borders, to stop illegal migration. Obviously, we are going to continue with that: keeping the fence, protecting the fence by police.” …

    Please tell this to the GOP and the Democrats. Fences work!

    Maybe the endgame is that the Germans and Austrians are setting the Serbs up to be the Fall Guys for Merkel’s Boner. Payback for 6/28/1914 and all that.

    Germany already got its payback in blood from Serbia in WW2. Add in their support over taking away Kosovo and the Serbs are now the ones needing to get even.

    Read More
  24. ic1000 says:

    On NPR’s Morning Edition, reporter Renee Montagne interviewed Slovakia’s Foreign Minister Miroslav Lajcak about Berlin’s call for all EU countries to do their fair share in accepting limitless numbers of migrants. “Slovakia Rejects EU’s Call For Mandatory Migrant Quotas.”

    An amusing listen (transcript’s not up yet). Cultural Marxist vs. Cultural Marxist… or is it Cultural Marxist vs. Clever Goodthink-parroting Nationalist Politician? Hard to tell.

    Renee: It’s shockingly evil that Slovakia isn’t bending to the diktats of its betters, don’t you think?
    Miroslav: Oh, but we want to! It’s just that silly Brussels is trying to deal with the issue bureaucratically.

    Renee: But today’s talking points are that the refugees are middle class, and Slovakia needs their vibrancy and economic diversity to have any hope for the future?
    Miroslav: Yes, of course!

    Renee: So I have single-handedly convinced you to open Slovakia’s borders to the deluge?
    Miroslav: Yes, your logic is compelling! However, while we embrace refugees with open arms, we cannot force them to stay in Slovakia. Why, of the four refugees who have already been granted asylum, three have already decamped for Germany! So you can see that it’s quite impossible for us to do more.

    Renee: Hmmm.
    Miroslav: Also, in her application, Chancellor Merkel left a stray mark in the “Office Use Only” section of the goldenrod copy. And she didn’t press hard enough; the canary copy is hard to read in places.

    Renee: But I have you on record as agreeing to accept many, many refugees, making me a shoe-in for the coveted Order Of The Hero-Reporter?
    Miroslav: Yes, we hypothetically love refugees! As humblebraggers, we regret that our culture is so pale and stale, but soon we will be as vibrantly diverse as our wealthy neighbors to the west. Meanwhile, in theory you can urge refugees to flood our borders, because once all of the many, many intractable problems have been completely resolved, Slovakia is certain to be very, very, very welcoming.

    Renee: Renee Montagne, NPR News.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ziel
    I heard that interview as well this morning - good job with the transcription - pretty much verbatim as I remember it!
  25. maynard says:

    “Croatia’s reversal came after hundreds of asylum seekers scuffled with Croatian riot police at the Tovarnik rail station near the Serbian border…”

    LOL! Everyone loves vibrancy. Until they interact with it.

    Read More
  26. NOTA says:

    Shockingly, refugees pay attention to news about which countries might be letting in refugees, and respond to incentives. Who could possibly have foreseen such an outcome?

    Read More
  27. Leftist conservative [AKA "radical_centrist"] says: • Website

    too late…tom petty already told them they don’t have to live like this

    Read More
  28. SD says:

    Of all places for Muslim migrants to be stuck in, they are stuck in Serbia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @tbraton
    "Of all places for Muslim migrants to be stuck in, they are stuck in Serbia."

    It could be worse. They could be stuck in Kosovo, which Serbia still regards as part of Serbia but which 23 out 28 EU member countries regard as independent. I have read and heard accounts that many of the "Syrian refugees" are actually Kosovar Albanian Muslims pretending to be Syrian refugees. They all want to go to Germany.
  29. Ed says:
    @MLK

    Maybe the endgame is that the Germans and Austrians are setting the Serbs up to be the Fall Guys for Merkel’s Boner.
     
    Perhaps...

    It isn't too early to note those in the prestige media and beyond that were once again played for fools. The term I coined for them is Digital Cannon Fodder. Thus your references to WWI are at least for me particularly apt. With regularity, war is declared and there is always a ready supply of eager recruits volunteering to be first out of the trenches. What distinguishes Digital Cannon Fodder from it's original namesake is they can participate in as many battles as they like, only leaving their reputations dead or soon to be. Though I cannot remember the last time there was an official Body Count.

    Hillary's email scandal is a classic example. "Okay, when I blow the whistle start running toward the enemy's trenches yelling 'Irrelevant!' or 'Ha ha, what a joke!' Indeed, the Clintons are the husband and wife team equivalent of Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig.***

    "A Stroll Through The Trenches"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBNrKn0SrJI


    http://www.historynet.com/field-marshal-sir-douglas-haig-world-war-is-worst-general.htm

    This is pedantic, and the overall comment is high quality, but though there is stiff competition for “worst general of World War I”, the winner is probably this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cadorna.

    Haig is definitely in the running if you exclude the Italians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MLK
    Thanks. Truth be told I am no WWI military historian, even amateurishly so. I wanted to finish up my comment, and (quickly) chose him per this:

    The magnitude of the battle still stuns the imagination. The Somme was an epic of both slaughter and futility; a profligate waste of men and materiel such as the world had never seen. On the morning of July 1, 1916, 110,000 British infantrymen went “over the top.” In a few hours, 60,000 of them were casualties. Nearly 20,000 of these were either dead already or would die of their wounds, many of them lingering for days between the trenches, in no man’s land. The attacking forces did not gain a single one of their objectives.
     
    To belabor, my point is that those who, for example, responded to Gen. Merkel's whistle by declaring Germany righteous for welcoming migrants en masse, and Hungary evil for protecting its borders, became Digital Cannon Fodder the moment -- and it came quickly -- that Germany "pulled the welcome mat."
  30. SD says:

    Since European leaders are now discussing how to solve this issue, is “let’s talk to Assad and see if he can fix this so the migrants can return to Syria” an option?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lugash
    Ockham's Eggbeater. The principle that things should be broken so badly they can't be put back together again.
    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    I suspect Europe is being "Marielitized."

    If I were Assad, I'd use the opportunity to empty the prisons and amnesty the opposition's militia members. Give everybody $5K (probably with Russia and Iran pitching in) and safe passage to Turkey. Now all your restive, young Sunni men are somebody else's problem.

    There are few if any Western journalists in Syria and they are all blinkered by their anti-Assad agendas. I doubt our Mighty Rainbow Warrior military and intelligence have a clue, so we have very little idea what is actually happening on the ground over there.
  31. BB753 says:

    I actually like the idea of land mines. Why not dump the Syrians in Albania and Kossovo? They’re fellow Muslims.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lugash
    They'll probably need to mine the Austrian border as well.
  32. Blah says:

    http://www.my9nj.com/chasing-news/20908463-story

    Never heard of it called “stacking” before. Europe should try it since they have less land to spread out these folks…

    Read More
  33. Leftist conservative [AKA "radical_centrist"] says: • Website

    I told you so!

    CorpGovMedia uses mass immigration as a growth strategy:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/germanys-economy-will-grow-faster-because-of-the-million-refugees-it-is-helping-study-finds-10505647.html

    as technology cuts costs over time, inflation drops, and growth drops….CorpGovMedia is a machine that seeks out growth as a shark seeks out blood, as a mosquito seeks out warm bodies…because technology has depressed inflation and growth, along with lower birth rates, CorpGovMedia has turned to mass immigration for growth.

    In order to manufacture consent for mass immigration, CorpGovMedia has created a decades-long propaganda campaign, implemented through the media, hollywood and the educational curriculum. This pro-immigration, anti-white, pro-nonwhite propaganda campaign is the defining event of our era.

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  34. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Steve, what are your thoughts on Europe dealing with its sub-replacement fertility rate by opening immigration to Southern/poor whites from the US? It seems that this would be a much easier group to assimilate while at the same time giving a future to the most hated of all American demographic groups. Europe would benefit immensely from the mechanical and agricultural skills of this group, many of whom the government has derided as “too proud to receive welfare”. This would also please American leftists who project so much guilt onto these hapless “racist rednecks”. I live in Mississippi and would welcome the chance to immigrate to Europe as long as I could live among fellow people of European descent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tacitus2016
    Don't do it Mal! The Anglosphere rocks! Europe rocks but like the weirdo Eurovision Song Contest.

    The Anglosphere diaspora was a step up from old Europe. The Anglosphere diaspora is/was/can be again something special, dare I say exceptional.

    Your soul will shrivel up here in Europe. It's unbecoming for you, a step down. Give the cult-like Euro states a miss, "Why would you want to leave? What does your wife think about leaving? Think of the children!" Phooey! If only the knew.

    Don't give up the New World! Think of what it took to make the New World something special. The sacrifices of your ancestors, the grief, the hardship. Your privileges have been earnt. Don't get romantic for old Europe. Nasty, bitter old deluded shrew!
    , @Bill B.
    Some South Africans have tried Ukraine.
  35. Felix says:

    You all are missing the point. Germany didn’t bow to public pressure. The plan was always to create a massive influx of dark people into europe and then distribute them to eastern Europe.

    The first step was to create the influx: this was the seemingly inexplicable announcement by Germany out of the blue that it would accept all comers.

    Then, once the millions had began to move, Germany equally abruptly reversed direction and insisted that the wealth be spread with eastern Europe. In my opinion, this was always the plan. Eastern Europe politicians are right now seemingly standing firm in this charged crisis atmosphere. I’d bet bottom dollar that once the crisis atmosphere passes, they will quietly accept the refugees.

    The thing is this: dark people currently only go to western Europe under the auspices of standard mass immigration. In order to send the flow to the east, you’d have to create a special situation with a distinct flow of migrants completely separate from the assorted millions that make their way to the Eu in any given year and melt away into subsidized society.

    The invading army is this flow. Being an army, it is visible and can be directed to the desired destination, unlike the amorphous flow of individual economic migrants and family reunification scammers. So they will force this army to eastern Europe, which otherwise may have remained viciously eastern european for a significantly long time given the wealth disparity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dsgntd_plyr

    You all are missing the point. Germany didn’t bow to public pressure. The plan was always to create a massive influx of dark people into europe and then distribute them to eastern Europe.
     
    This is a dumb plan. The migrants don't want to live in Eastern Europe because of low welfare payments, low wages, and high unemployment. Hell, the East could give them passports, then they'd have the right to legally settle in Western Europe under EU freedom of movement laws.
  36. res says:

    OT: Earlier this year you posted http://www.unz.com/isteve/have-universities-been-centers-of-political-radicalism-for-centuries/
    The followup paper is discussed at http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/09/14/bbs-paper-on-lack-of-political-diversity/
    A version of this with responses to commentaries is on the net. Search for Crawfordetal.BBScommentary.docx
    Title: It May Be Harder Than We Thought, But Political Diversity Will (Still) Improve
    Social Psychological Science

    It is fascinating to see the difference in response to the importance of diversity of political viewpoint versus that of gender and race. They spend a lot of time on distinguishing social and economic conservatism which I found interesting.

    Read More
  37. Wow – check out the WP comments section – no need to send any help over that way. I read about 20 or 30 and every single one expressed outrage at the orchestrated invasion and the lying of the mass media.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    Same in the Guardian. BBC et al are relentlessly pushing ''bad Hungary', commenters are saying 'If only we had a Viktor Orban'.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/hungary-shamed-viktor-orban-refugee-hungarian-serbian
  38. dsgntd_plyr says: • Website

    Hungarian authorities said the number of people crossing into their nation had all but dried up: 277 Wednesday, down from 9,380 Monday

    That’s a 97% reduction with a glorified chain-link fence, and guards saying “no.”

    If amnesty proponents caved on a border barrier (and 100% deportation of future illegals) then their chances of getting an amnesty bill would significantly increase.

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  39. @Shine a Light
    It does look like Serbia is getting stuck with the hot potato but they do have an out -- and it's called Kosovo! Surely all these Muslim refugees wouldn't mind seeking refuge in a "country" run by Muslims? Would they?

    It is interesting that the former Communist countries are now on the front lines saving European identity. Besides Hungary and the Balkans, in Poland, supporters of the football team Lech Poznan managed a boycott over the fact that one Euro per ticket was donated to refugees.

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/18/lech-poznan-europa-league-refugee …

    What it comes down to is that Germany is only willing to take on the demographic handicap that millions of Muslim refugees represent on the condition all other European countries do the same. Germany cannot accept the relative decline in competitiveness that would result in allowing Eastern Europe to stay all white. This relative competitiveness factor is also one reason the US so voraciously exports Multicultural Cheap Labor Capitalism to Europe.

    3,000 watched the game rather than the usual 20,000 – impressive solidarity.

    Also in the Guardian – call me old-fashioned, but we Brits queue patiently for trains and moan when they’re late. But not these dynamic types. Germany is so lucky to be getting them.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/sep/18/fights-break-out-refugees-queue-croatia-station-video

    Read More
  40. @Tim Howells
    Wow - check out the WP comments section - no need to send any help over that way. I read about 20 or 30 and every single one expressed outrage at the orchestrated invasion and the lying of the mass media.

    Same in the Guardian. BBC et al are relentlessly pushing ”bad Hungary’, commenters are saying ‘If only we had a Viktor Orban’.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/hungary-shamed-viktor-orban-refugee-hungarian-serbian

    Read More
  41. George says:

    Socialist Paradise pulls welcome mats for long term resident aliens, confiscates their stuff, and demolishes their homes. Apparently they are able to deport large numbers of people without much trouble.

    Colombia and Venezuela presidents to discuss ‘most worrying’ border dispute
    A Venezuelan fighter jet crashes amid heightened frontier tensions that have seen 1,500 Colombians deported and 20,000 to leave of their own accord

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/18/colombia-venezuela-presidents-meeting-border-dispute

    “Before the guardsmen drove her out of their neighbourhood Plata saw her home spraypainted with an “R” to indicate it had been checked, and a “D” marking it for demolition.” Which I think is pretty hard core.

    Read More
  42. Kat Grey says:
    @eah
    The crush of refugees and migrants has shocked European leaders

    Morons. The obviousness of this has been epic for months and months. Even longer. What did they think was going to happen when eg the Italian navy kept intercepting the boats and bringing the people on them to European soil?

    I agree it was an Italian mess augmented by the Italian media shrewdly exploiting the emotional nature of the average Italian by showing streams of sad-eyed babies being taken off the boats (although we all know that over 90% of those invading Europe of men of military age).

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  43. Young girls and children are being systematically raped in these German refugee camps. The situation is out of control and the MSM is hiding it carefully:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.de/maximilian-von-thalen/fluchtlinge-als-freiwild-sexuelle-ubergriffe-in-asylbewerberheimen_b_8121116.html

    What happens when these young men are let loose on European females?

    Read More
  44. MLK says:
    @Ed
    This is pedantic, and the overall comment is high quality, but though there is stiff competition for "worst general of World War I", the winner is probably this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cadorna.

    Haig is definitely in the running if you exclude the Italians.

    Thanks. Truth be told I am no WWI military historian, even amateurishly so. I wanted to finish up my comment, and (quickly) chose him per this:

    The magnitude of the battle still stuns the imagination. The Somme was an epic of both slaughter and futility; a profligate waste of men and materiel such as the world had never seen. On the morning of July 1, 1916, 110,000 British infantrymen went “over the top.” In a few hours, 60,000 of them were casualties. Nearly 20,000 of these were either dead already or would die of their wounds, many of them lingering for days between the trenches, in no man’s land. The attacking forces did not gain a single one of their objectives.

    To belabor, my point is that those who, for example, responded to Gen. Merkel’s whistle by declaring Germany righteous for welcoming migrants en masse, and Hungary evil for protecting its borders, became Digital Cannon Fodder the moment — and it came quickly — that Germany “pulled the welcome mat.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Abe

    Thanks. Truth be told I am no WWI military historian, even amateurishly so. I wanted to finish up my comment, and (quickly) chose [Haig]] per this
     
    I read a couple WWI books last summer, and have come to disagree with the conventional wisdom that British generals were a bunch of buffoons ("donkeys leading lions"). The casualties of the Somme were indeed horrendous (doubly so because these were "Pals" brigades consisting of men from the same villages and small towns, thus ensuring any units that were particularly hard-hit would be reflected in the decimation of identifiable communities back home) but Haig was right in his strategy (as opposed to Churchill, whose flinching from high casualties lead to the completely useless AND bloody debacle of Gallipoli). Germany was trying to knock-out France at Verdun in 1916; if Britain had stayed on the defensive that year, Germany might just have succeeded. If both Western Allies had stayed on the defensive throughout the war, and just let the Germans throw themselves at their trench defenses, as many revisionist armchair generals now recommend, Germany would have simply concentrated to knock-out Russia, then swung around to knock out France and England like it almost did in 1918. WWI has horrible because the generals were following sound strategy under tactical systems that required about 10 more years of technological development to fix.
  45. Tiny Duck says:

    The West cynically failed to support the Arab Spring and the desire for accountable governments in the Middle East who would use the vast natural resource wealth for human development and industrialization in the region. Instead, they allowed the anti-democratic coup in Egypt and failed to support the vast majority of moderate Syrians in their peaceful demonstrations against the Assad regime which helped to unleash ISIS. The West also allowed the Israelis, Saudis, and the UAE to pursue a Machiavellian strategy of roll back of the Arab Spring and fragmentation of the region so they can stay on top. Now like all too clever by half Machiavellians, the West is paying for its own ruthless policies like it did on 9/11.

    Really, these immigrants should be let in no matter their intentions. It might just end racism and xenophobia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @antipater_1
    So Teddy Dupree, just why do you and the migrants possess these personal problems of racism and xenophobia? Will letting in millions of migrants into Europe end the racism and xenophobia of the Teddy and the migrants?.
  46. I take it this signifies that the Europeans, our betters, whom we Americans would do well to emulate, are the worst kind of racists.

    Read More
  47. Sean says:

    Britain’s (Murdoch’s) Sunday Times had a major article by war correspondent journalist Christina Lamb called ‘Middle-class Syrians shocked by malice of EU minnows’ about how badly the migrants are being treated. She gives a representative selection of migrants a Damascus computer programmer with wife and child, a dentist with a English literature graduate wife and 6 months old baby, and two young graduates, one a communications engineer.

    Another report on same pages

    “Most refugees are young, well-educated and highly motivated — they are exactly the people we need,” said Dieter Zetsche, chairman of the automotive giant.

    “They could, like the guest workers from decades ago, help us preserve and improve our prosperity. For Germany cannot any more fill the jobs available only with Germans.”

    Zetsche’s evocation of the millions of Gastarbeiter (guest workers) who helped to fuel the country’s post-war boom reflected the almost united response of Germany’s government, industry and media to Europe’s largest refugee crisis since World War II. Siemens has joined Daimler, the maker of Mercedes cars, in pledging to offer jobs and training for refugees; Bayern Munich, the football club, is investing more than €1 million ($1.6m) in a training camp for new players from the young people coming from the Middle East and Africa.

    Arab football players, is there no end to their potential. One interesting point is many of the Gastarbeiter (guest workers) were from southern Europe.

    Read More
  48. @Mike Sylwester

    The proposed German law would provide food and a ticket to return to the first European Union country the asylum seeker entered
     
    The Germans are wrecking all of Europe for the third time in 100 years.

    The Germans are wrecking all of Europe for the third time in 100 years.

    This time with a Blitzkrieg of blind, unthinking moral preening.

    Read More
  49. dsgntd_plyr says: • Website
    @Felix
    You all are missing the point. Germany didn't bow to public pressure. The plan was always to create a massive influx of dark people into europe and then distribute them to eastern Europe.

    The first step was to create the influx: this was the seemingly inexplicable announcement by Germany out of the blue that it would accept all comers.

    Then, once the millions had began to move, Germany equally abruptly reversed direction and insisted that the wealth be spread with eastern Europe. In my opinion, this was always the plan. Eastern Europe politicians are right now seemingly standing firm in this charged crisis atmosphere. I'd bet bottom dollar that once the crisis atmosphere passes, they will quietly accept the refugees.

    The thing is this: dark people currently only go to western Europe under the auspices of standard mass immigration. In order to send the flow to the east, you'd have to create a special situation with a distinct flow of migrants completely separate from the assorted millions that make their way to the Eu in any given year and melt away into subsidized society.

    The invading army is this flow. Being an army, it is visible and can be directed to the desired destination, unlike the amorphous flow of individual economic migrants and family reunification scammers. So they will force this army to eastern Europe, which otherwise may have remained viciously eastern european for a significantly long time given the wealth disparity.

    You all are missing the point. Germany didn’t bow to public pressure. The plan was always to create a massive influx of dark people into europe and then distribute them to eastern Europe.

    This is a dumb plan. The migrants don’t want to live in Eastern Europe because of low welfare payments, low wages, and high unemployment. Hell, the East could give them passports, then they’d have the right to legally settle in Western Europe under EU freedom of movement laws.

    Read More
  50. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I guess after decades of being reminded about WWII, Germany will be relieved to have something entirely new to be embarassed for.

    At least they can claim that they tried to help the poor “refugees”, but couldn’t, because of those bad, bad East Europeans.

    Read More
  51. @Jamie_NYC

    We’re just poor dumb tough Serbs.
     
    Come on Steve; Serbs are at least as smart as some of the other peoples who are already in the EU (Romanians (heh), Bulgarians, Croats, ...). What's next - the stupid Poles jokes?

    It’s satire. He has the Serbs saying about themselves that they are dumb. The point is that the Serbs are not dumb but the EU higher-ups are.

    Read More
  52. tbraton says:
    @George
    Great wall of Israel can't stop Chinese.

    Israel brings in Chinese workers at the expense of everybody
    The importing of foreign laborers has been linked to massive corruption, indentured servitude and the ossifying of the construction industry. The Chinese might be coming all the same.

    http://www.haaretz.com/business/.premium-1.676500

    I’m a little surprised Israel is not bringing in workers from North Korea. I understand that they have plenty of Chosan people, who could fit right in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    "....they have plenty of Chosan people".

    Ha! Good One!
    , @Mark Eugenikos
    I needed a second read to get it, but brilliant.
  53. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Mike Sylwester

    The proposed German law would provide food and a ticket to return to the first European Union country the asylum seeker entered
     
    The Germans are wrecking all of Europe for the third time in 100 years.

    Yeah, WW1, WW2 and multi-culturalism only originated with the Germans. Absolutelty no other parties involved in any of this.

    Read More
  54. Abe says: • Website
    @MLK
    Thanks. Truth be told I am no WWI military historian, even amateurishly so. I wanted to finish up my comment, and (quickly) chose him per this:

    The magnitude of the battle still stuns the imagination. The Somme was an epic of both slaughter and futility; a profligate waste of men and materiel such as the world had never seen. On the morning of July 1, 1916, 110,000 British infantrymen went “over the top.” In a few hours, 60,000 of them were casualties. Nearly 20,000 of these were either dead already or would die of their wounds, many of them lingering for days between the trenches, in no man’s land. The attacking forces did not gain a single one of their objectives.
     
    To belabor, my point is that those who, for example, responded to Gen. Merkel's whistle by declaring Germany righteous for welcoming migrants en masse, and Hungary evil for protecting its borders, became Digital Cannon Fodder the moment -- and it came quickly -- that Germany "pulled the welcome mat."

    Thanks. Truth be told I am no WWI military historian, even amateurishly so. I wanted to finish up my comment, and (quickly) chose [Haig]] per this

    I read a couple WWI books last summer, and have come to disagree with the conventional wisdom that British generals were a bunch of buffoons (“donkeys leading lions”). The casualties of the Somme were indeed horrendous (doubly so because these were “Pals” brigades consisting of men from the same villages and small towns, thus ensuring any units that were particularly hard-hit would be reflected in the decimation of identifiable communities back home) but Haig was right in his strategy (as opposed to Churchill, whose flinching from high casualties lead to the completely useless AND bloody debacle of Gallipoli). Germany was trying to knock-out France at Verdun in 1916; if Britain had stayed on the defensive that year, Germany might just have succeeded. If both Western Allies had stayed on the defensive throughout the war, and just let the Germans throw themselves at their trench defenses, as many revisionist armchair generals now recommend, Germany would have simply concentrated to knock-out Russia, then swung around to knock out France and England like it almost did in 1918. WWI has horrible because the generals were following sound strategy under tactical systems that required about 10 more years of technological development to fix.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    [Germany would have simply concentrated to knock-out Russia]

    Silly reasoning. Russia's leaving the war would much more probably have been prevented than accelerated by more vigorous Central Power offensives against it in 1915 and 1916, which in any case would have been technically extremely difficult to mount, even with a more passive German posture in the west.
  55. Fredrik says:
    @anonymous
    I don’t know if the following is a trustworthy site (never heard of it)

    http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.1936/promises-of-free-willing-young-blonde-girls-attract-arabs-to-sweden.html
    Regarding the human traffickers’ advertisements it claims:


    There is also sexual content in the advertisements, according to Dala-Demokraten. Among other things, the Arabs are promised their own free young willing blond Swedish girlfriend if they manage to illegally get all the way to the promised land in northern Europe (article picture).

    "In reality one can say that the young Syrian men are lured to Sweden by the oldest trick in the book - money and girls. Pictures of blonde beauties are published, and that Swedish women require real men," writes Dala-Demokraten.
     

    It links here
    http://www.dalademokraten.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige
    But the link seems to have been disappeared. I read it via Google translate before it disappeared. It said:

    On the whole it can be said that the young Syrian men lured to Sweden by the oldest tricks in the book - money and girls. The published pictures of blonde beauties and writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.

     

    Unfortunately I don’t have the original Swedish anymore, but when I did, altering which portions I gave to Google translate seemed to suggest that “writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.” was meant to mean that the traffikers were trying to convince the Syrian men that the Swedish girls were demonstrating because they were upset because they needed men.

    I can confirm this article existed. The article is gone but exists in a sister paper.

    Link to news article:

    http://www.op.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige

    Link to screenshot from Dala-Demokraten.

    http://www.ladda-upp.se/bilder/gbjnqrwuintlx/

    Btw,
    Dala-Demokraten is from the left wing of the Social Democrats. These people are to the left of Bernie Sanders.

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  56. tbraton says:
    @inertial
    "Going 1389" must mean"getting slaughtered and losing their country to invaders."

    I heard a Syrian woman (pregnant btw and expecting to deliver in two weeks) on TV describe her husband as someone who had left the Syrian army because he feared losing his life fighting the enemies of the regime. So I don’t think the Serbs will be encountering an armed professional army of Ottoman Turks the same way they did in 1389.

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  57. Abe says: • Website

    Wow, 3 guys in front whose faces you can see are quite stylish- like someone was trying to reboot the early 90′s R&B group “Color Me Bad-gh-dad”. Sorry, Mr. Sunglasses-and-capri-jeans- you ain’t having any kids unless you’re adopting them with Elton John or Neil Patrick Harris.

    Incidentally, Steve, you really need to start working in references to the 70′s Euro arthouse film “Ali: Fear Eats the Soul”. Dumpy German frau starts romance with hot Moroccan (or was it Algerian?) gastarbiter (or hot if you’re a gay Eurotrash director into rough trade with a 1001 Nights flavor). Despite the racist disapproval of her family and neighbors, their unconventional love wins out. Call it “Harun & Maude”.

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  58. Veracitor says:

    I wonder what sort of job Bling Boy* plans to get in Germany. Perhaps he will provide personal services to gentlemen? Are his gilded sandals a form of advertising?

    *Center of the photo, carrying the sign “our child dream for a sweet home.”

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  59. tbraton says:
    @SD
    Of all places for Muslim migrants to be stuck in, they are stuck in Serbia.

    “Of all places for Muslim migrants to be stuck in, they are stuck in Serbia.”

    It could be worse. They could be stuck in Kosovo, which Serbia still regards as part of Serbia but which 23 out 28 EU member countries regard as independent. I have read and heard accounts that many of the “Syrian refugees” are actually Kosovar Albanian Muslims pretending to be Syrian refugees. They all want to go to Germany.

    Read More
  60. Europe needing to close its borders reminds me of Steve saying, “That’s why we can’t have nice things.”

    Read More
  61. @Anonymous
    Steve, what are your thoughts on Europe dealing with its sub-replacement fertility rate by opening immigration to Southern/poor whites from the US? It seems that this would be a much easier group to assimilate while at the same time giving a future to the most hated of all American demographic groups. Europe would benefit immensely from the mechanical and agricultural skills of this group, many of whom the government has derided as "too proud to receive welfare". This would also please American leftists who project so much guilt onto these hapless "racist rednecks". I live in Mississippi and would welcome the chance to immigrate to Europe as long as I could live among fellow people of European descent.

    Don’t do it Mal! The Anglosphere rocks! Europe rocks but like the weirdo Eurovision Song Contest.

    The Anglosphere diaspora was a step up from old Europe. The Anglosphere diaspora is/was/can be again something special, dare I say exceptional.

    Your soul will shrivel up here in Europe. It’s unbecoming for you, a step down. Give the cult-like Euro states a miss, “Why would you want to leave? What does your wife think about leaving? Think of the children!” Phooey! If only the knew.

    Don’t give up the New World! Think of what it took to make the New World something special. The sacrifices of your ancestors, the grief, the hardship. Your privileges have been earnt. Don’t get romantic for old Europe. Nasty, bitter old deluded shrew!

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  62. Off Topis but kind of topical. This is the plot of the new Eli Roth film-

    ” the pic that “follows a group of student activists who from New York City travel to the Amazon to protect a dying tribe, but crash in the jungle and are taken hostage by the very natives they saved.

    Dark and primitive customs still rule the Amazon jungle: cannibalism and other mind, body and soul-destroying rituals. Trapped in the village, these high-tech modern-world students experience the ultimate in primal barbaric terror, suffering unspeakable acts of violence in an intense and chilling rituals reserved only for the most threatening intruders”

    http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3362065/red-band-the-green-inferno-clip-is-blinding/

    It’s kind of inevitable that this will be condemned as racist. But a rather apt metaphor for the current state of the West.

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  63. Grumpy says:

    Poor Finland.

    The word has spread that it’s easier to apply for asylum in Finland than in Sweden, so migrants are traveling in large numbers north through Sweden to get to the land border with Finland.

    Here is a 1-minute clip from the Swedish news today:

    http://www.svtplay.se/klipp/3706838/flyktingar-pa-vag-till-haparanda

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  64. @kihowi
    "Pull welcome mats?" There's often a correlation between the quality of an argument made and the quality of the metaphors employed. Yuck.

    Asylum seekers also would need to remain in crowded reception centers for six months, rather than three, before earning the right to subsidized housing.

    The author should grab his Merriam-Webster’s and acquaint himself with the meaning of earn and right.

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  65. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Dave Pinsen
    The Economist now decides Eastern Europe needs the refugees most of all:
    https://twitter.com/pierrebri/status/644819027962036225

    Of course, The Economist being The Economist completey neglects to mention in that article that trivial little fact that half the Polish workforce has decamped to the UK in this past decade.

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  66. South Park takes on Caitlyn Jenner, Tom Brady, Brett Favre’s clapping, fraternities, Syrian Refugees, PC culture as a form of hazing, microaggressions…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwAkXcgbjSY

    The PC fraternity (the Western Establishment, perhaps??) only falls after it is flooded by pregnant Mexican women and Syrian refugees…

    http://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s19e01-stunning-and-brave#source=2b6c5ab4-d717-4e84-9143-918793a3b636:63a32034-1ea6-492d-b95b-9433e3f62f8d&position=1&sort=airdate

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  67. Too late for Deutschland…
    The politics of Cuckservatism… Do they know no boundaries??

    Heartthrob star lead Elyas M’Barek (German mother & Tunisian father) of hit film”Fack Ju Göhte 2″ attracted hordes of thousands of teenage fans forcing police cancel the German premiere in Nürnberg.

    In the film he plays a “bad boy” ex-con teacher… You can probably imagine the rest.

    Here’s the trailer…

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  68. Ziel says:
    @ic1000
    On NPR's Morning Edition, reporter Renee Montagne interviewed Slovakia's Foreign Minister Miroslav Lajcak about Berlin's call for all EU countries to do their fair share in accepting limitless numbers of migrants. "Slovakia Rejects EU's Call For Mandatory Migrant Quotas."

    An amusing listen (transcript's not up yet). Cultural Marxist vs. Cultural Marxist... or is it Cultural Marxist vs. Clever Goodthink-parroting Nationalist Politician? Hard to tell.

    Renee: It's shockingly evil that Slovakia isn't bending to the diktats of its betters, don't you think?
    Miroslav: Oh, but we want to! It's just that silly Brussels is trying to deal with the issue bureaucratically.

    Renee: But today's talking points are that the refugees are middle class, and Slovakia needs their vibrancy and economic diversity to have any hope for the future?
    Miroslav: Yes, of course!

    Renee: So I have single-handedly convinced you to open Slovakia's borders to the deluge?
    Miroslav: Yes, your logic is compelling! However, while we embrace refugees with open arms, we cannot force them to stay in Slovakia. Why, of the four refugees who have already been granted asylum, three have already decamped for Germany! So you can see that it's quite impossible for us to do more.

    Renee: Hmmm.
    Miroslav: Also, in her application, Chancellor Merkel left a stray mark in the "Office Use Only" section of the goldenrod copy. And she didn't press hard enough; the canary copy is hard to read in places.

    Renee: But I have you on record as agreeing to accept many, many refugees, making me a shoe-in for the coveted Order Of The Hero-Reporter?
    Miroslav: Yes, we hypothetically love refugees! As humblebraggers, we regret that our culture is so pale and stale, but soon we will be as vibrantly diverse as our wealthy neighbors to the west. Meanwhile, in theory you can urge refugees to flood our borders, because once all of the many, many intractable problems have been completely resolved, Slovakia is certain to be very, very, very welcoming.

    Renee: Renee Montagne, NPR News.

    I heard that interview as well this morning – good job with the transcription – pretty much verbatim as I remember it!

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  69. Lugash says:
    @SD
    Since European leaders are now discussing how to solve this issue, is "let's talk to Assad and see if he can fix this so the migrants can return to Syria" an option?

    Ockham’s Eggbeater. The principle that things should be broken so badly they can’t be put back together again.

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  70. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    http://www.infowars.com/top-iman-muslim-migrants-should-breed-with-europeans-to-conquer-their-countries/

    No wonder all them young men are coming.

    European men are too wussy to do anything about the invasion. Women despise weak men. The invading men at least got guts.

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  71. Retired says:

    Where will we vacation when muslims ruin Europe, the Disneyland For Adults?

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  72. Lugash says:
    @BB753
    I actually like the idea of land mines. Why not dump the Syrians in Albania and Kossovo? They're fellow Muslims.

    They’ll probably need to mine the Austrian border as well.

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  73. ChrisZ says:

    Steve, you hit it out of the park with that last paragraph. European vanity dictates that they can do no other than to invite/welcome/exalt the invading hoard into their countries.

    But deep down, they hope that some disreputable agent–like the Serbs, who already have a tainted reputation (by Euro-lights)–will do the dirty work of repelling the invader, and thereby saving the dainty graces of life in Europe.

    If and when the ugly deeds are done, the Serbs can expect to be denounced and humiliated by the European elites, so the latter can have their cake and eat it too: clean streets with a clean conscience.

    What’s that pseudo-Orwell quote about some people being able to sleep safely in bed because others are willing to do the rough work elsewhere?

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  74. fish says:
    @anonymous
    I don’t know if the following is a trustworthy site (never heard of it)

    http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.1936/promises-of-free-willing-young-blonde-girls-attract-arabs-to-sweden.html
    Regarding the human traffickers’ advertisements it claims:


    There is also sexual content in the advertisements, according to Dala-Demokraten. Among other things, the Arabs are promised their own free young willing blond Swedish girlfriend if they manage to illegally get all the way to the promised land in northern Europe (article picture).

    "In reality one can say that the young Syrian men are lured to Sweden by the oldest trick in the book - money and girls. Pictures of blonde beauties are published, and that Swedish women require real men," writes Dala-Demokraten.
     

    It links here
    http://www.dalademokraten.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige
    But the link seems to have been disappeared. I read it via Google translate before it disappeared. It said:

    On the whole it can be said that the young Syrian men lured to Sweden by the oldest tricks in the book - money and girls. The published pictures of blonde beauties and writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.

     

    Unfortunately I don’t have the original Swedish anymore, but when I did, altering which portions I gave to Google translate seemed to suggest that “writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.” was meant to mean that the traffikers were trying to convince the Syrian men that the Swedish girls were demonstrating because they were upset because they needed men.

    Pussy…..you can move mountains with/for it!

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  75. rod1963 says:

    You realize that reporters have spotted ISIS and AQ terrorists among the refugees and if they are spotting them, more are slipping by unnoticed.

    http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/the-terrorists-are-already-among-us/

    Mid-term it means Jihad on Europeans isn’t far away. Once bloodshed happens on a large scale, it will provoke a wave of nationalism across Europe that hasn’t been since the early 1900′s. Merkel and Germany will be toast.

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  76. Now Denmark has joined in Germany’s secret plan to conquer eastern Europe.

    Denmark Says No: Will Not Take Any More Middle Eastern Refugees

    We will not take part in the 160,000 asylum seekers that shall be distributed. We won’t do it because we have an opt-out

    Denmark has an exemption from the EU agreement on the distribution of refugees

    ===============

    Getting to Denmark: On Francis Fukuyama

    Fukuyama assures us that “there are a number of different routes for ‘getting to Denmark,’”

    Unfortunately, Denmark is now not letting people in once they get there.

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  77. @SD
    Since European leaders are now discussing how to solve this issue, is "let's talk to Assad and see if he can fix this so the migrants can return to Syria" an option?

    I suspect Europe is being “Marielitized.”

    If I were Assad, I’d use the opportunity to empty the prisons and amnesty the opposition’s militia members. Give everybody $5K (probably with Russia and Iran pitching in) and safe passage to Turkey. Now all your restive, young Sunni men are somebody else’s problem.

    There are few if any Western journalists in Syria and they are all blinkered by their anti-Assad agendas. I doubt our Mighty Rainbow Warrior military and intelligence have a clue, so we have very little idea what is actually happening on the ground over there.

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  78. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    In the news, trains, trains, trains.

    Maybe Merkel can go heavy metal and persuade Germans to take in more migrants by singing this song.

    Aiaiaiaiaiaiaiai

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsNMnp2LyZE

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  79. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I think this is too little too late.

    Germans have lost their mind.

    This is sad to see.

    My mother worked in Germany from 72 to 75, and I remember her telling us(me and sister) how clean, orderly, and efficient things were in Germany. A model country really. Her opinion of rest of Europe wasn’t so hot.

    She sent me German toys that were top-notch. And I still love the photos of her time in Germany. Germans are now going to flush it all down the drain. Bad for Germany, and bad for nations that look to the Western model that now promotes national suicide as the highest virtue.

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  80. Hunsdon says:
    @Jamie_NYC

    We’re just poor dumb tough Serbs.
     
    Come on Steve; Serbs are at least as smart as some of the other peoples who are already in the EU (Romanians (heh), Bulgarians, Croats, ...). What's next - the stupid Poles jokes?

    The emphasis, as I took it, was far more on the tough than on the dumb side, and a reminder that the provincial Serbs really were the front line in defending Europe from Muslims for a long time. Yes, this is an HBD blog (“the” HBD blog, rather!), but still.

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    a reminder that the provincial Serbs really were the front line in defending Europe from Muslims for a long time.
     
    Yet they never seem to get credit for it. In fact modern Euros have taken to siding with the leftover Quislings of those long ago muslim invaders in their disputes with the Serbs. Sort of ironic since those people's ancestors would have probably assisted the invaders in subjugating all of Europe. I'm sure this time will be no different.
    , @Niccolo Salo
    Serbia itself got run over pretty quickly. Some Serbs were on the frontline, but only after they defected from the Turkish side and crossed over to serve the Habsburgs as border soldiers in the various Krajinas.
  81. unit472 says:

    Britain happens to have in the South Atlantic a large island called South Georgia. Formerly a whaling station it is currently uninhabited except for seals and penguins and, unless you are a Shackleford it is so remote you can’t leave without assistance.

    This island could be used as a permanent sanctuary for those truly at risk in their own homeland as only those with a ‘well founded fear of persecution’ would be willing to live in such a cold, remote location but it has plenty of fresh water from mountain glaciers and with barracks style housing and an occasional freighter delivering UN style refugee rations it could accommodate an almost unlimited population of asylum seekers.

    http://www.sgisland.gs/flash/panorama/finalloader.swf

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  82. Jefferson says:

    Germans look down on Hungarians the same way SWPL types in the U.S look down on Southern Whites and Republican voting blue collar Northeast Italians.

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  83. Matra says:
    @Mike Sylwester

    The proposed German law would provide food and a ticket to return to the first European Union country the asylum seeker entered
     
    The Germans are wrecking all of Europe for the third time in 100 years.

    They also contributed to the Bosnian war breaking out by unilaterally recognising Croatian independence before the Serb minority issue was dealt with. That decision was not based on international law but German domestic politics.

    A unified German state, which only came into existence in 1871, has been an unmitigated disaster for the people of Europe. I’d like to see it broken up into several smaller states – Bavaria etc.

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    • Replies: @Bert
    Paying Croatia back for their sycophantic loyalty during the war.

    To hell with Germany. They have no right to do what their doing.
    , @HA
    "They also contributed to the Bosnian war breaking out by unilaterally recognising Croatian independence before the Serb minority issue was dealt with."

    Yeah, largely because of the creative ways in which Serb paramilitaries had decided to deal with that minority issue themselves. Shelling up Dubrovnik, anyone? After a few years of stuff like that, well, it got a little stale.

    Besides, the Croatians would have been fine had the rest of Europe simply lifted the arms embargo against them (the embargo which conveniently had no effect on the Eastern parts of Yugoslavia, since they were a major arms exporter).

    Finally, it's worth noting that one of the reasons the Bosnians wanted to stay in Yugoslavia as long as they did (which is why they were so unprepared for what was to follow) was because their president realized that Muslims were set to become the predominant ethnic group in the next few years, due to higher TFR, and had the country stayed together, they would have come to dominate all of it.

  84. iSteveFan says:
    @Hunsdon
    The emphasis, as I took it, was far more on the tough than on the dumb side, and a reminder that the provincial Serbs really were the front line in defending Europe from Muslims for a long time. Yes, this is an HBD blog ("the" HBD blog, rather!), but still.

    a reminder that the provincial Serbs really were the front line in defending Europe from Muslims for a long time.

    Yet they never seem to get credit for it. In fact modern Euros have taken to siding with the leftover Quislings of those long ago muslim invaders in their disputes with the Serbs. Sort of ironic since those people’s ancestors would have probably assisted the invaders in subjugating all of Europe. I’m sure this time will be no different.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "Sort of ironic since those people's ancestors would have probably assisted the invaders in subjugating all of Europe."

    Would have probably assisted? Hah! You can be more definite than that:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93German_alliance

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1787%E2%80%9392)
    ("...while the British and French ambassadors lent their unconditional support to the Ottoman war party.")

    The list goes on. "Enemy of my enemy" often turns out to be a cure worse than the disease.

    Likewise, the Ottomans got their foothold into Bosnia because the locals invited them in, as part of an effort to fend off the attacking Hungarians. In the words of Twain, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

    Compare medieval Bosnia's strategy with leftist Europeans who today likewise regard (formerly Ottoman) immigrants as useful allies in beating back their conservative political opponents. In fact, that seems at times to be a greater concern than actually helping those immigrants, otherwise they'd opt for the far more practical approach of providing ways for a greater number of war-distressed Syrians and Iraqis -- not just the ones rich enough to afford smugglers -- to find shelter closer to home.

  85. Bert says:
    @Matra
    They also contributed to the Bosnian war breaking out by unilaterally recognising Croatian independence before the Serb minority issue was dealt with. That decision was not based on international law but German domestic politics.

    A unified German state, which only came into existence in 1871, has been an unmitigated disaster for the people of Europe. I'd like to see it broken up into several smaller states - Bavaria etc.

    Paying Croatia back for their sycophantic loyalty during the war.

    To hell with Germany. They have no right to do what their doing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "Paying Croatia back for their sycophantic loyalty during the war."

    Sycophantic loyalty? Give me a break. Finding out about Yugoslavia was my first foray into Eastern European politics, and I got to many sides of this story from a variety of factions, and let's just say that your version leaves much to be desired, to put it kindly. Among the things it leaves out was the fact that the Croat member of government (a representative of the Peasant Party, which was the only non-fringe Croatian party at the time), was the only one who refused to sign the Tripartite pact joining Yugoslavia to the Axis (he correctly believed that the Germans would eventually lose the war, and had cousins in Czechoslovakia and Poland, so that he had no particular illusions about the Nazis). Twice he was offered the role of being the Quisling head of the puppet state. He refused (and then, unlike the rest of the government, who skirted off to London with the gold in the treasury, stayed behind in Croatia to share his people's fate; he also refused to deal with the Communists). And so, the Germans turned to the fringe party to rule the puppet state, i.e. the Ustasha, who among their other accomplishment decided to erect a mosque in Zagreb (they were wierdly philo-islamic, and their ideological hero regarded Bosnian Muslims as "the bloom of the Croatian nation"). Real popular move that was. A lot of Croats loved having their own state, but the only reason the Ustasha were leading it was because the Nazis put them there.

    To the extent that even the Nazis came to resent the Ustasha (for, among other things, the strangely large number of Jews in their leadership), they have pretty much themselves to blame for that. That's not to absolve the Croats, and they have to face up to the consequences of everything that happened, but expecting some goodwill from the Germans later on was reasonable, given the circumstances, and sycophantic loyalty is a ridiculous way of characterizing what went on at the time to anyone who bothers to find out what really happened.

  86. Rapparee says:
    @anonymous
    It's amazing how just one person and her party can in such a short time wreak such havoc on the continent of Europe. This idiocy could change the demographics of Europe forever. The Germans apparently didn't think it necessary to consult with any of the other countries before taking steps that would affect them very deeply. What happens now to the invaders who don't make it to Germany and onto their welfare gravy train? Will they roam around Europe in gypsy-like bands robbing and leeching off the natives? The invaders could be repatriated if the will to do so exists; millions were moved around during and after WWII so it can be accomplished. If there's one thing the Balkans doesn't need it's Muslims; they have unpleasant memories of them. The Germans need to pay the bill for all this and start writing some big checks to everyone.

    This idiocy could change the demographics of Europe forever…. The invaders could be repatriated if the will to do so exists; millions were moved around during and after WWII so it can be accomplished.

    Your second statement is strong evidence against the first. Two alternative outcomes seem plausible:

    1. Anti-immigration parties make big headway in the coming decade, and European elites lose some of their enthusiasm for electing a new people. A bunch of cities are henceforth permanently saddled with cruddy Muslim and African ghettoes, but outside of these lousy neighborhoods, European life goes back to normal.

    2. European leaders keep their feet firmly glued to the accelerator as they drive toward the demographic cliff. Public anger grows, until groups like the English Defence League or Génération Identitaire start getting their hands on automatic rifles and Semtex (perhaps with the aid of military or police sympathizers). European life becomes very, very interesting for a while, while “refugees” conclude that Saxony is no longer a marked improvement on Syria.

    Sanity and basic human decency clearly recommend scenario 1, and I’m marginally optimistic that events will more-or-less happen that way, but Europe’s political class are certainly crazy and reckless enough to precipitate scenario 2.

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  87. @anonymous
    It's amazing how just one person and her party can in such a short time wreak such havoc on the continent of Europe. This idiocy could change the demographics of Europe forever. The Germans apparently didn't think it necessary to consult with any of the other countries before taking steps that would affect them very deeply. What happens now to the invaders who don't make it to Germany and onto their welfare gravy train? Will they roam around Europe in gypsy-like bands robbing and leeching off the natives? The invaders could be repatriated if the will to do so exists; millions were moved around during and after WWII so it can be accomplished. If there's one thing the Balkans doesn't need it's Muslims; they have unpleasant memories of them. The Germans need to pay the bill for all this and start writing some big checks to everyone.

    What is absolutely shocking though not in the least surprising is that no matter the scale of the fuck-up, no matter how egregious the consequences for hundreds of millions of people across entire Continents there are never any personal consequences for the perpetrator.

    Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar.

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    What is absolutely shocking though not in the least surprising is that no matter the scale of the fuck-up, no matter how egregious the consequences for hundreds of millions of people across entire Continents there are never any personal consequences for the perpetrator.

    Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar.
     
    Great point. Think about December 7, 1941. Admiral Kimmel and General Short were both demoted and fired as respective heads of their services in Hawaii after the Pearl Harbor attack. Whether these guys were really incompetent, or just never received crucial intel is debatable. But the lack of preparation and a proper defense was too much to ignore without some heads rolling. That just doesn't seem to happen today.
    , @Mr. Anon
    "Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar."

    Bush can perhaps be excused because he's a nitwit. But that doesn't hold for Cheney.

    My blood boils every time I see that rotten old f**k being interviewed by some FOX News bimbo. If there were any justice in the world, Cheney would only ever see the sun rising through prison bars.
  88. Bill B. says:
    @bomag
    spokesman for the pro-refugee organization ProAsyl.

    We need fewer of these pro-invader groups and more pro-current resident groups.

    Pro-current resident groups used to include the government, but they too often are in the tank for the invaders.

    Never, ever, of course a spokesman for any group opposed to migration invasion. The only reason these open borders and inevitablist spokesmen exist is because they are funded by western governments, the UN or the likes of Soros.

    Naturally lazy journalists never factor this in when deciding to “balance” a government spokesman with a progressive activist. Indeed it never occurs to journalists that there might be indigenous peoples out there looking on aghast but, effectively, mute most of the time.

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  89. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    http://www.rt.com/news/315823-russia-refugee-camp-syria/

    Way to go.

    Stabilize and let people live.

    Assad is hardly one of the worst rulers in the world.

    If the West had aided him or not intervened, ISIS would have been finished long ago.

    But people who run the West figured it was worth it to use ISIS against Assad even if it totally devastated Syria.

    Reminds me of what Albright said about 300,000 Iraqi women and children.

    ‘It was worth it.’

    West always had the option:

    1. Better Assad than rebel crazies.

    2. Better rebel crazies than Assad.

    3. Better to have Assad and rebel crazies destroy one another.

    The real reason why US didn’t intervene in Syria was not because of Russia.
    US was against Assad but didn’t want to see rebel loonies come to power either. So, US turned the heat up and down to make sure the war would go to destroy both Assad and ISIS. The West went with option 3.

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  90. Croatian says:

    This is Croatian president Kolinda with the love of her life. If you want to know what Kolinda thinks about immigrant crisis, ask Hillary.

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  91. Bill B. says:
    @anonymous
    I don’t know if the following is a trustworthy site (never heard of it)

    http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.1936/promises-of-free-willing-young-blonde-girls-attract-arabs-to-sweden.html
    Regarding the human traffickers’ advertisements it claims:


    There is also sexual content in the advertisements, according to Dala-Demokraten. Among other things, the Arabs are promised their own free young willing blond Swedish girlfriend if they manage to illegally get all the way to the promised land in northern Europe (article picture).

    "In reality one can say that the young Syrian men are lured to Sweden by the oldest trick in the book - money and girls. Pictures of blonde beauties are published, and that Swedish women require real men," writes Dala-Demokraten.
     

    It links here
    http://www.dalademokraten.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige
    But the link seems to have been disappeared. I read it via Google translate before it disappeared. It said:

    On the whole it can be said that the young Syrian men lured to Sweden by the oldest tricks in the book - money and girls. The published pictures of blonde beauties and writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.

     

    Unfortunately I don’t have the original Swedish anymore, but when I did, altering which portions I gave to Google translate seemed to suggest that “writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.” was meant to mean that the traffikers were trying to convince the Syrian men that the Swedish girls were demonstrating because they were upset because they needed men.

    Why not?

    It would gybe with the pornography they all see on the internet. From what we have seen of migrant attitudes the women of Europe better be prepared for a lot of enhanced Eve Teasing…

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  92. HA says:
    @iSteveFan

    a reminder that the provincial Serbs really were the front line in defending Europe from Muslims for a long time.
     
    Yet they never seem to get credit for it. In fact modern Euros have taken to siding with the leftover Quislings of those long ago muslim invaders in their disputes with the Serbs. Sort of ironic since those people's ancestors would have probably assisted the invaders in subjugating all of Europe. I'm sure this time will be no different.

    “Sort of ironic since those people’s ancestors would have probably assisted the invaders in subjugating all of Europe.”

    Would have probably assisted? Hah! You can be more definite than that:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93German_alliance

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1787%E2%80%9392)

    (“…while the British and French ambassadors lent their unconditional support to the Ottoman war party.”)

    The list goes on. “Enemy of my enemy” often turns out to be a cure worse than the disease.

    Likewise, the Ottomans got their foothold into Bosnia because the locals invited them in, as part of an effort to fend off the attacking Hungarians. In the words of Twain, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

    Compare medieval Bosnia’s strategy with leftist Europeans who today likewise regard (formerly Ottoman) immigrants as useful allies in beating back their conservative political opponents. In fact, that seems at times to be a greater concern than actually helping those immigrants, otherwise they’d opt for the far more practical approach of providing ways for a greater number of war-distressed Syrians and Iraqis — not just the ones rich enough to afford smugglers — to find shelter closer to home.

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  93. Bill B. says:
    @Anonymous
    Steve, what are your thoughts on Europe dealing with its sub-replacement fertility rate by opening immigration to Southern/poor whites from the US? It seems that this would be a much easier group to assimilate while at the same time giving a future to the most hated of all American demographic groups. Europe would benefit immensely from the mechanical and agricultural skills of this group, many of whom the government has derided as "too proud to receive welfare". This would also please American leftists who project so much guilt onto these hapless "racist rednecks". I live in Mississippi and would welcome the chance to immigrate to Europe as long as I could live among fellow people of European descent.

    Some South Africans have tried Ukraine.

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  94. HA says:
    @Matra
    They also contributed to the Bosnian war breaking out by unilaterally recognising Croatian independence before the Serb minority issue was dealt with. That decision was not based on international law but German domestic politics.

    A unified German state, which only came into existence in 1871, has been an unmitigated disaster for the people of Europe. I'd like to see it broken up into several smaller states - Bavaria etc.

    “They also contributed to the Bosnian war breaking out by unilaterally recognising Croatian independence before the Serb minority issue was dealt with.”

    Yeah, largely because of the creative ways in which Serb paramilitaries had decided to deal with that minority issue themselves. Shelling up Dubrovnik, anyone? After a few years of stuff like that, well, it got a little stale.

    Besides, the Croatians would have been fine had the rest of Europe simply lifted the arms embargo against them (the embargo which conveniently had no effect on the Eastern parts of Yugoslavia, since they were a major arms exporter).

    Finally, it’s worth noting that one of the reasons the Bosnians wanted to stay in Yugoslavia as long as they did (which is why they were so unprepared for what was to follow) was because their president realized that Muslims were set to become the predominant ethnic group in the next few years, due to higher TFR, and had the country stayed together, they would have come to dominate all of it.

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  95. iSteveFan says:
    @Bill Jones
    What is absolutely shocking though not in the least surprising is that no matter the scale of the fuck-up, no matter how egregious the consequences for hundreds of millions of people across entire Continents there are never any personal consequences for the perpetrator.

    Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar.

    What is absolutely shocking though not in the least surprising is that no matter the scale of the fuck-up, no matter how egregious the consequences for hundreds of millions of people across entire Continents there are never any personal consequences for the perpetrator.

    Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar.

    Great point. Think about December 7, 1941. Admiral Kimmel and General Short were both demoted and fired as respective heads of their services in Hawaii after the Pearl Harbor attack. Whether these guys were really incompetent, or just never received crucial intel is debatable. But the lack of preparation and a proper defense was too much to ignore without some heads rolling. That just doesn’t seem to happen today.

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  96. @tbraton
    I'm a little surprised Israel is not bringing in workers from North Korea. I understand that they have plenty of Chosan people, who could fit right in.

    “….they have plenty of Chosan people”.

    Ha! Good One!

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  97. WhatEvvs [AKA "Danuta Tramp"] says:
    @Jamie_NYC

    We’re just poor dumb tough Serbs.
     
    Come on Steve; Serbs are at least as smart as some of the other peoples who are already in the EU (Romanians (heh), Bulgarians, Croats, ...). What's next - the stupid Poles jokes?

    He’s being facetious.

    My favorite piece of Serbian stupidity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

    They didn’t know you’re not supposed to be able to shoot down a Stealth bomber.

    Vive la hongrie!

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  98. HA says:
    @Bert
    Paying Croatia back for their sycophantic loyalty during the war.

    To hell with Germany. They have no right to do what their doing.

    “Paying Croatia back for their sycophantic loyalty during the war.”

    Sycophantic loyalty? Give me a break. Finding out about Yugoslavia was my first foray into Eastern European politics, and I got to many sides of this story from a variety of factions, and let’s just say that your version leaves much to be desired, to put it kindly. Among the things it leaves out was the fact that the Croat member of government (a representative of the Peasant Party, which was the only non-fringe Croatian party at the time), was the only one who refused to sign the Tripartite pact joining Yugoslavia to the Axis (he correctly believed that the Germans would eventually lose the war, and had cousins in Czechoslovakia and Poland, so that he had no particular illusions about the Nazis). Twice he was offered the role of being the Quisling head of the puppet state. He refused (and then, unlike the rest of the government, who skirted off to London with the gold in the treasury, stayed behind in Croatia to share his people’s fate; he also refused to deal with the Communists). And so, the Germans turned to the fringe party to rule the puppet state, i.e. the Ustasha, who among their other accomplishment decided to erect a mosque in Zagreb (they were wierdly philo-islamic, and their ideological hero regarded Bosnian Muslims as “the bloom of the Croatian nation”). Real popular move that was. A lot of Croats loved having their own state, but the only reason the Ustasha were leading it was because the Nazis put them there.

    To the extent that even the Nazis came to resent the Ustasha (for, among other things, the strangely large number of Jews in their leadership), they have pretty much themselves to blame for that. That’s not to absolve the Croats, and they have to face up to the consequences of everything that happened, but expecting some goodwill from the Germans later on was reasonable, given the circumstances, and sycophantic loyalty is a ridiculous way of characterizing what went on at the time to anyone who bothers to find out what really happened.

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    • Replies: @anonymous

    sycophantic loyalty is a ridiculous way of characterizing what went on
     
    It's not an inaccurate way to describe them. They clung loyally to Hitler up until the very last days of the war while all the other allies had already jumped ship.
    , @Mark Eugenikos
    Using an example of a single person, as you did with Dr. Vladko Macek, is not a great way to show how a people or a country behaved during any period in history.

    A better example would be to look at the country, in this case Independent State of Croatia. If you were to read that article, it backs up Bert's characterization.
  99. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I’ve been coming to this theory for a while. Wonderfully civilized Germans, English and French need to keep the half civilizes Scots-Irish, Serbians etc around for times like these when there is some dirty work to be done. Its a mutually beneficial relationship, even if the two sides don’t like each other.

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  100. @Tiny Duck
    The West cynically failed to support the Arab Spring and the desire for accountable governments in the Middle East who would use the vast natural resource wealth for human development and industrialization in the region. Instead, they allowed the anti-democratic coup in Egypt and failed to support the vast majority of moderate Syrians in their peaceful demonstrations against the Assad regime which helped to unleash ISIS. The West also allowed the Israelis, Saudis, and the UAE to pursue a Machiavellian strategy of roll back of the Arab Spring and fragmentation of the region so they can stay on top. Now like all too clever by half Machiavellians, the West is paying for its own ruthless policies like it did on 9/11.

    Really, these immigrants should be let in no matter their intentions. It might just end racism and xenophobia.

    So Teddy Dupree, just why do you and the migrants possess these personal problems of racism and xenophobia? Will letting in millions of migrants into Europe end the racism and xenophobia of the Teddy and the migrants?.

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  101. Roughly 3-4000 migrants are still arriving in Greece every day. I don’t think Croatia and Slovenia will be able to cope with the influx unless they build a border fence like Hungary has. If Germany succeeds in passing the bill to reduce benefits to refugees/migrants, what other county will be in the line of fire. Or will this make no difference to their ultimate destination?

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    • Replies: @WhatEvvs
    And what will the Greeks do? They can't build a border fence around their seacoast. And every island.

    This entire debacle is the fault of Angela Merkel. If she had led, a united Europe would have fallen into line behind her to keep the invaders out. It would have been right. It would have been popular. But she purposely chose to destroy Europe, and to encourage criminality.

    I'm reeling at the folly of it all. I shouldn't - but I am.
  102. WhatEvvs [AKA "Danuta Tramp"] says:
    @Perspective
    Roughly 3-4000 migrants are still arriving in Greece every day. I don't think Croatia and Slovenia will be able to cope with the influx unless they build a border fence like Hungary has. If Germany succeeds in passing the bill to reduce benefits to refugees/migrants, what other county will be in the line of fire. Or will this make no difference to their ultimate destination?

    And what will the Greeks do? They can’t build a border fence around their seacoast. And every island.

    This entire debacle is the fault of Angela Merkel. If she had led, a united Europe would have fallen into line behind her to keep the invaders out. It would have been right. It would have been popular. But she purposely chose to destroy Europe, and to encourage criminality.

    I’m reeling at the folly of it all. I shouldn’t – but I am.

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    • Replies: @anon
    Naval patrols - drag the boats back where they came from and sink them.
  103. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @George
    Great wall of Israel can't stop Chinese.

    Israel brings in Chinese workers at the expense of everybody
    The importing of foreign laborers has been linked to massive corruption, indentured servitude and the ossifying of the construction industry. The Chinese might be coming all the same.

    http://www.haaretz.com/business/.premium-1.676500

    “Israel brings in Chinese workers at the expense of everybody”

    Yeah it often starts with construction.

    For any single employer importing illegals to undercut wages makes sense but when they all do it for long enough the economy grinds to a halt because no one has any spending money.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

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  104. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @WhatEvvs
    And what will the Greeks do? They can't build a border fence around their seacoast. And every island.

    This entire debacle is the fault of Angela Merkel. If she had led, a united Europe would have fallen into line behind her to keep the invaders out. It would have been right. It would have been popular. But she purposely chose to destroy Europe, and to encourage criminality.

    I'm reeling at the folly of it all. I shouldn't - but I am.

    Naval patrols – drag the boats back where they came from and sink them.

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  105. Patton says:

    Completely aside from the flow of interesting, well thought-out, and dead-on commentary rational folks expect from our host, Mr. Sailer, it occurs to me that I can’t think of another site at which iI can expect a random laugh-inducer like a picture of a head of state in a bikini.

    Kudos.

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  106. @Hunsdon
    The emphasis, as I took it, was far more on the tough than on the dumb side, and a reminder that the provincial Serbs really were the front line in defending Europe from Muslims for a long time. Yes, this is an HBD blog ("the" HBD blog, rather!), but still.

    Serbia itself got run over pretty quickly. Some Serbs were on the frontline, but only after they defected from the Turkish side and crossed over to serve the Habsburgs as border soldiers in the various Krajinas.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    Krajina is a very useful lesson for iSteve readers. The Austro-Hungarians (i.e. the elites of the day) were eager to import the Serbs (i.e. human capital) and therefore gave them relatively generous measures of self autonomy, much to the chagrin of the local Croats living there. As the authors of the American Constitution knew, quartering a bunch of soldiers in any neighborhood is a recipe for disaster, since soldiers who are saviors of the country in wartime are otherwise a frequently volatile and damaged bunch of men once peacetime rolls around.

    Of course, the Croats had plenty of mercenaries, too, but they had links to the surrounding community that the autonomized Serbs didn't, and they had more disincentive to refrain from tearing up a tavern or ravaging a neighbor girl, given that the victim was bound to be a cousin or a cousin's cousin. But when the Serb soldiers roughed up the locals, and ravaged the women (or when Croat soldiers roughed up Serbs), the resentment and repercussions were more deeply felt and the reconciliation was more difficult.

    But settling the Serbs there was a smart tactic, in theory, anyway, as far as the policy planners and strategists were concerned. After all, a populated area is less likely to be overrun by the enemy. And yet, the friction it caused festered, even though in much of the rest of what was Yugoslavia, Serbs and Croats lived more amicably, simply because they weren't living on the precarious dividing line between East and West, and thrust together like cats in a sack.

    Anyway, the Krajina was where the main ideologue of what would later be the Ustasha was born (his mother was Serbian, by the way). Unlike the clerics (who tended to regard Croats solely as Catholics), or else the elites (i.e., the poets and philologists whose interactions with Serbs were focused on other elites like them, and who were therefore unaware of any dark side of melding two distinct cultures into one Yugoslav entity), this so-called "father of Croatian nationalistm" was among the first to regard the Croats as a distinct people. Thankfully, the Croatian Peasant Party would later adopt his anti-assimilationist platform (minus the nastier, crazier bits) as a key platform, and this gave the party wide popular appeal among regular Croats, and they thereby marginalized the more extreme parties out of office - at least until the Nazis came along and, as noted before, once the main party of Croats made it clear they wanted nothing to do with them, they decided to give the Ustasha a turn at running things they had never been able to achieve on their own.

    Most people here know how the rest of that story goes. In hindsight, it would have been better had it all been done differently from the start. But everyone wants to pretend it will turn out differently the next time, and so, the elites and the strategists are recommending we try all that again.

  107. Mr. Anon says:
    @Bill Jones
    What is absolutely shocking though not in the least surprising is that no matter the scale of the fuck-up, no matter how egregious the consequences for hundreds of millions of people across entire Continents there are never any personal consequences for the perpetrator.

    Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar.

    “Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar.”

    Bush can perhaps be excused because he’s a nitwit. But that doesn’t hold for Cheney.

    My blood boils every time I see that rotten old f**k being interviewed by some FOX News bimbo. If there were any justice in the world, Cheney would only ever see the sun rising through prison bars.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Bush can perhaps be excused because he’s a nitwit. But that doesn’t hold for Cheney.
     
    Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, George W Bush, Barack Obama, and Richard Cheney each sired two daughters and no sons.

    But only Cheney's was able to sire a son herself! The name lives on!

    Machiavellianism runs in the family.
  108. @tbraton
    I'm a little surprised Israel is not bringing in workers from North Korea. I understand that they have plenty of Chosan people, who could fit right in.

    I needed a second read to get it, but brilliant.

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  109. @anonymous
    I don’t know if the following is a trustworthy site (never heard of it)

    http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.1936/promises-of-free-willing-young-blonde-girls-attract-arabs-to-sweden.html
    Regarding the human traffickers’ advertisements it claims:


    There is also sexual content in the advertisements, according to Dala-Demokraten. Among other things, the Arabs are promised their own free young willing blond Swedish girlfriend if they manage to illegally get all the way to the promised land in northern Europe (article picture).

    "In reality one can say that the young Syrian men are lured to Sweden by the oldest trick in the book - money and girls. Pictures of blonde beauties are published, and that Swedish women require real men," writes Dala-Demokraten.
     

    It links here
    http://www.dalademokraten.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige
    But the link seems to have been disappeared. I read it via Google translate before it disappeared. It said:

    On the whole it can be said that the young Syrian men lured to Sweden by the oldest tricks in the book - money and girls. The published pictures of blonde beauties and writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.

     

    Unfortunately I don’t have the original Swedish anymore, but when I did, altering which portions I gave to Google translate seemed to suggest that “writing to upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they require men.” was meant to mean that the traffikers were trying to convince the Syrian men that the Swedish girls were demonstrating because they were upset because they needed men.

    It links here

    http://www.dalademokraten.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige

    But the link seems to have been disappeared. I read it via Google translate before it disappeared. It said:

    It can be found here:

    http://www.op.se/blaljus/brott/har-ar-de-rena-lognerna-som-lurar-flyktingar-till-sverige

    This is your passage:

    På det hela taget kan man påstå att unga syriska män lockas till Sverige genom de äldsta tricken i boken – pengar och tjejer. Det publiceras bilder på blonda skönheter och man skriver att upprörda svenska kvinnor demonstrerar eftersom de kräver män.

    My translation:

    “On the whole, one can state that young Syrian men are lured to Sweden through the oldest tricks in the book — money and girls. Pictures of blonde beauties are published, and it is written that upset Swedish women are demonstrating because they demand men.”

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  110. 5371 says:
    @Abe

    Thanks. Truth be told I am no WWI military historian, even amateurishly so. I wanted to finish up my comment, and (quickly) chose [Haig]] per this
     
    I read a couple WWI books last summer, and have come to disagree with the conventional wisdom that British generals were a bunch of buffoons ("donkeys leading lions"). The casualties of the Somme were indeed horrendous (doubly so because these were "Pals" brigades consisting of men from the same villages and small towns, thus ensuring any units that were particularly hard-hit would be reflected in the decimation of identifiable communities back home) but Haig was right in his strategy (as opposed to Churchill, whose flinching from high casualties lead to the completely useless AND bloody debacle of Gallipoli). Germany was trying to knock-out France at Verdun in 1916; if Britain had stayed on the defensive that year, Germany might just have succeeded. If both Western Allies had stayed on the defensive throughout the war, and just let the Germans throw themselves at their trench defenses, as many revisionist armchair generals now recommend, Germany would have simply concentrated to knock-out Russia, then swung around to knock out France and England like it almost did in 1918. WWI has horrible because the generals were following sound strategy under tactical systems that required about 10 more years of technological development to fix.

    [Germany would have simply concentrated to knock-out Russia]

    Silly reasoning. Russia’s leaving the war would much more probably have been prevented than accelerated by more vigorous Central Power offensives against it in 1915 and 1916, which in any case would have been technically extremely difficult to mount, even with a more passive German posture in the west.

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  111. HA says:
    @Niccolo Salo
    Serbia itself got run over pretty quickly. Some Serbs were on the frontline, but only after they defected from the Turkish side and crossed over to serve the Habsburgs as border soldiers in the various Krajinas.

    Krajina is a very useful lesson for iSteve readers. The Austro-Hungarians (i.e. the elites of the day) were eager to import the Serbs (i.e. human capital) and therefore gave them relatively generous measures of self autonomy, much to the chagrin of the local Croats living there. As the authors of the American Constitution knew, quartering a bunch of soldiers in any neighborhood is a recipe for disaster, since soldiers who are saviors of the country in wartime are otherwise a frequently volatile and damaged bunch of men once peacetime rolls around.

    Of course, the Croats had plenty of mercenaries, too, but they had links to the surrounding community that the autonomized Serbs didn’t, and they had more disincentive to refrain from tearing up a tavern or ravaging a neighbor girl, given that the victim was bound to be a cousin or a cousin’s cousin. But when the Serb soldiers roughed up the locals, and ravaged the women (or when Croat soldiers roughed up Serbs), the resentment and repercussions were more deeply felt and the reconciliation was more difficult.

    But settling the Serbs there was a smart tactic, in theory, anyway, as far as the policy planners and strategists were concerned. After all, a populated area is less likely to be overrun by the enemy. And yet, the friction it caused festered, even though in much of the rest of what was Yugoslavia, Serbs and Croats lived more amicably, simply because they weren’t living on the precarious dividing line between East and West, and thrust together like cats in a sack.

    Anyway, the Krajina was where the main ideologue of what would later be the Ustasha was born (his mother was Serbian, by the way). Unlike the clerics (who tended to regard Croats solely as Catholics), or else the elites (i.e., the poets and philologists whose interactions with Serbs were focused on other elites like them, and who were therefore unaware of any dark side of melding two distinct cultures into one Yugoslav entity), this so-called “father of Croatian nationalistm” was among the first to regard the Croats as a distinct people. Thankfully, the Croatian Peasant Party would later adopt his anti-assimilationist platform (minus the nastier, crazier bits) as a key platform, and this gave the party wide popular appeal among regular Croats, and they thereby marginalized the more extreme parties out of office – at least until the Nazis came along and, as noted before, once the main party of Croats made it clear they wanted nothing to do with them, they decided to give the Ustasha a turn at running things they had never been able to achieve on their own.

    Most people here know how the rest of that story goes. In hindsight, it would have been better had it all been done differently from the start. But everyone wants to pretend it will turn out differently the next time, and so, the elites and the strategists are recommending we try all that again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    Croats and Serbs were divided only by religion (a Serb who became Catholic automatically became a Croat, and vice versa), started out with the same enemies, and coexisted for centuries. There is no similarity with today's "refugee" crisis.
    , @Mark Eugenikos
    "Of course, the Croats had plenty of mercenaries, too, but they had links to the surrounding community that the autonomized Serbs didn’t, and they had more disincentive to refrain from tearing up a tavern or ravaging a neighbor girl, given that the victim was bound to be a cousin or a cousin’s cousin. But when the Serb soldiers roughed up the locals, and ravaged the women (or when Croat soldiers roughed up Serbs), the resentment and repercussions were more deeply felt and the reconciliation was more difficult."

    Do you have any sources for this story? You claimed in another comment that you studied East European politics and Yugoslavia, but I don't get the impression from this comment that you really understand how Military Frontier functioned. The whole region was under direct command of Hapsburg military since the early 17th century, and I've never seen any source that claimed it was the Wild West type of environment you claimed it to had been. Care to share your sources?
  112. @Mr. Anon
    "Bush and Cheney serve as another recent exemplar."

    Bush can perhaps be excused because he's a nitwit. But that doesn't hold for Cheney.

    My blood boils every time I see that rotten old f**k being interviewed by some FOX News bimbo. If there were any justice in the world, Cheney would only ever see the sun rising through prison bars.

    Bush can perhaps be excused because he’s a nitwit. But that doesn’t hold for Cheney.

    Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, George W Bush, Barack Obama, and Richard Cheney each sired two daughters and no sons.

    But only Cheney’s was able to sire a son herself! The name lives on!

    Machiavellianism runs in the family.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dcite
    Well, there was a run of two-daughter presidents. I think when they put together Obamastein, they added that as a familiar feature, as if election was inevitable.
    People really don't understand what is going on with that man at all. It's like being in bizarroland.
  113. 5371 says:
    @HA
    Krajina is a very useful lesson for iSteve readers. The Austro-Hungarians (i.e. the elites of the day) were eager to import the Serbs (i.e. human capital) and therefore gave them relatively generous measures of self autonomy, much to the chagrin of the local Croats living there. As the authors of the American Constitution knew, quartering a bunch of soldiers in any neighborhood is a recipe for disaster, since soldiers who are saviors of the country in wartime are otherwise a frequently volatile and damaged bunch of men once peacetime rolls around.

    Of course, the Croats had plenty of mercenaries, too, but they had links to the surrounding community that the autonomized Serbs didn't, and they had more disincentive to refrain from tearing up a tavern or ravaging a neighbor girl, given that the victim was bound to be a cousin or a cousin's cousin. But when the Serb soldiers roughed up the locals, and ravaged the women (or when Croat soldiers roughed up Serbs), the resentment and repercussions were more deeply felt and the reconciliation was more difficult.

    But settling the Serbs there was a smart tactic, in theory, anyway, as far as the policy planners and strategists were concerned. After all, a populated area is less likely to be overrun by the enemy. And yet, the friction it caused festered, even though in much of the rest of what was Yugoslavia, Serbs and Croats lived more amicably, simply because they weren't living on the precarious dividing line between East and West, and thrust together like cats in a sack.

    Anyway, the Krajina was where the main ideologue of what would later be the Ustasha was born (his mother was Serbian, by the way). Unlike the clerics (who tended to regard Croats solely as Catholics), or else the elites (i.e., the poets and philologists whose interactions with Serbs were focused on other elites like them, and who were therefore unaware of any dark side of melding two distinct cultures into one Yugoslav entity), this so-called "father of Croatian nationalistm" was among the first to regard the Croats as a distinct people. Thankfully, the Croatian Peasant Party would later adopt his anti-assimilationist platform (minus the nastier, crazier bits) as a key platform, and this gave the party wide popular appeal among regular Croats, and they thereby marginalized the more extreme parties out of office - at least until the Nazis came along and, as noted before, once the main party of Croats made it clear they wanted nothing to do with them, they decided to give the Ustasha a turn at running things they had never been able to achieve on their own.

    Most people here know how the rest of that story goes. In hindsight, it would have been better had it all been done differently from the start. But everyone wants to pretend it will turn out differently the next time, and so, the elites and the strategists are recommending we try all that again.

    Croats and Serbs were divided only by religion (a Serb who became Catholic automatically became a Croat, and vice versa), started out with the same enemies, and coexisted for centuries. There is no similarity with today’s “refugee” crisis.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "There is no similarity with today’s “refugee” crisis.

    If you had actually bothered to read the post, you would have seen that it referred to the conflicts caused by various elites and common folk in dealing with multi-culturalism, and how each faction, despite its best intentions, was nonetheless blind to the problems and concerns the others were concerned with.

    There are any number of modern-day immigration and multi-culturalism parallels where similar issues come into play, not just the refugee crisis, which I did not even mention in the post. If you can't see that, well, based on your other posting, I'm not particularly surprised.
  114. Handing political power to women is a dangerous business. One matriarch is busy destroying Germany merrily and another nearly destroyed Croatia.

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    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    John Knox had it figured out. His Blasts of the Trumpet were prescient, even if they chafe moderns badly.
    , @Anonymous
    In the Croatian political system, the President doesn't actually have a lot of power. The reins are, in theory, in the incapable hands of Prime Minister Zoran Milanovic. I don't trust any of them, but I'd still rather it were the other way around. Oh well, a couple of months till the elections, and then whatever happens afterwards, at least Milanovic will be gone. After four years, I can't even laugh at this stuff any more.
  115. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @HA
    "Paying Croatia back for their sycophantic loyalty during the war."

    Sycophantic loyalty? Give me a break. Finding out about Yugoslavia was my first foray into Eastern European politics, and I got to many sides of this story from a variety of factions, and let's just say that your version leaves much to be desired, to put it kindly. Among the things it leaves out was the fact that the Croat member of government (a representative of the Peasant Party, which was the only non-fringe Croatian party at the time), was the only one who refused to sign the Tripartite pact joining Yugoslavia to the Axis (he correctly believed that the Germans would eventually lose the war, and had cousins in Czechoslovakia and Poland, so that he had no particular illusions about the Nazis). Twice he was offered the role of being the Quisling head of the puppet state. He refused (and then, unlike the rest of the government, who skirted off to London with the gold in the treasury, stayed behind in Croatia to share his people's fate; he also refused to deal with the Communists). And so, the Germans turned to the fringe party to rule the puppet state, i.e. the Ustasha, who among their other accomplishment decided to erect a mosque in Zagreb (they were wierdly philo-islamic, and their ideological hero regarded Bosnian Muslims as "the bloom of the Croatian nation"). Real popular move that was. A lot of Croats loved having their own state, but the only reason the Ustasha were leading it was because the Nazis put them there.

    To the extent that even the Nazis came to resent the Ustasha (for, among other things, the strangely large number of Jews in their leadership), they have pretty much themselves to blame for that. That's not to absolve the Croats, and they have to face up to the consequences of everything that happened, but expecting some goodwill from the Germans later on was reasonable, given the circumstances, and sycophantic loyalty is a ridiculous way of characterizing what went on at the time to anyone who bothers to find out what really happened.

    sycophantic loyalty is a ridiculous way of characterizing what went on

    It’s not an inaccurate way to describe them. They clung loyally to Hitler up until the very last days of the war while all the other allies had already jumped ship.

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    • Replies: @HA
    It’s not an inaccurate way to describe them. They clung loyally to Hitler up until the very last days of the war while all the other allies had already jumped ship.

    Actually, when the leadership surrendered to the Allies in Austria, they had a number of Slovenians, Chetniks and Cossacks marching alongside them.

    In any case, the "they" you are referring to are the German-appointed puppet faction that no one in Croatia had elected to anything (it would have been difficult, given that their only prior claim to fame was training a Macedonian terrorist to kill the Yugoslav king, so that some were under death sentences before the war).
  116. HA says:
    @5371
    Croats and Serbs were divided only by religion (a Serb who became Catholic automatically became a Croat, and vice versa), started out with the same enemies, and coexisted for centuries. There is no similarity with today's "refugee" crisis.

    “There is no similarity with today’s “refugee” crisis.

    If you had actually bothered to read the post, you would have seen that it referred to the conflicts caused by various elites and common folk in dealing with multi-culturalism, and how each faction, despite its best intentions, was nonetheless blind to the problems and concerns the others were concerned with.

    There are any number of modern-day immigration and multi-culturalism parallels where similar issues come into play, not just the refugee crisis, which I did not even mention in the post. If you can’t see that, well, based on your other posting, I’m not particularly surprised.

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    • Replies: @HA
    Moreover, the fact that Serbs and Croats are more similar than Syrians and Slovaks doesn't mean that the history of the former (and the steps by which understandable but conflicting interests of elites and common folk led to tragedy and carnage) is not relevant.

    If anything, the problems between these already-very-similar tribes suggest that the future friction between Syrians and Slovaks stands a good chance of being even worse.

    , @5371
    [which I did not even mention in the post.]

    In other words, your tedious guff was completely off topic. You said it, not me.
  117. HA says:
    @HA
    "There is no similarity with today’s “refugee” crisis.

    If you had actually bothered to read the post, you would have seen that it referred to the conflicts caused by various elites and common folk in dealing with multi-culturalism, and how each faction, despite its best intentions, was nonetheless blind to the problems and concerns the others were concerned with.

    There are any number of modern-day immigration and multi-culturalism parallels where similar issues come into play, not just the refugee crisis, which I did not even mention in the post. If you can't see that, well, based on your other posting, I'm not particularly surprised.

    Moreover, the fact that Serbs and Croats are more similar than Syrians and Slovaks doesn’t mean that the history of the former (and the steps by which understandable but conflicting interests of elites and common folk led to tragedy and carnage) is not relevant.

    If anything, the problems between these already-very-similar tribes suggest that the future friction between Syrians and Slovaks stands a good chance of being even worse.

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    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    No two species can occupy the same ecological niche in the same space. Unless they can interbreed and merge, one wins and the other goes extinct.

    Very dissimilar tribes of humans can coexist in the same space for a long period of time so long as each is separate in terms of how it lives and earns its living. If they are similar enough that a similar modus vivendi appeals to both, either one drives out and kills the other or they interbreed.

    The Angles, Saxons and Jutes became one people in England, for instance.
  118. dcite says:
    @Jonathan Silber
    The Matron Merkel is threatening to kick out her live-in, lie-about, good-for-nothing young Syrian sponge of a boyfriend. But once he's gone she'll want him back, because even though her friends are saying he's no good for her, she still loves him.

    For a minute I thought she really had a Syrian boyfriend. Fancy that .. then I got the analogy.

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  119. dcite says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Bush can perhaps be excused because he’s a nitwit. But that doesn’t hold for Cheney.
     
    Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, George W Bush, Barack Obama, and Richard Cheney each sired two daughters and no sons.

    But only Cheney's was able to sire a son herself! The name lives on!

    Machiavellianism runs in the family.

    Well, there was a run of two-daughter presidents. I think when they put together Obamastein, they added that as a familiar feature, as if election was inevitable.
    People really don’t understand what is going on with that man at all. It’s like being in bizarroland.

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  120. 5371 says:
    @HA
    "There is no similarity with today’s “refugee” crisis.

    If you had actually bothered to read the post, you would have seen that it referred to the conflicts caused by various elites and common folk in dealing with multi-culturalism, and how each faction, despite its best intentions, was nonetheless blind to the problems and concerns the others were concerned with.

    There are any number of modern-day immigration and multi-culturalism parallels where similar issues come into play, not just the refugee crisis, which I did not even mention in the post. If you can't see that, well, based on your other posting, I'm not particularly surprised.

    [which I did not even mention in the post.]

    In other words, your tedious guff was completely off topic. You said it, not me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    >In other words, your tedious guff was completely off topic.

    And yet, you somehow bothered to read it, or, more likely, pretended to. So keep trying. You're bound to connect eventually.
  121. @HA
    "Paying Croatia back for their sycophantic loyalty during the war."

    Sycophantic loyalty? Give me a break. Finding out about Yugoslavia was my first foray into Eastern European politics, and I got to many sides of this story from a variety of factions, and let's just say that your version leaves much to be desired, to put it kindly. Among the things it leaves out was the fact that the Croat member of government (a representative of the Peasant Party, which was the only non-fringe Croatian party at the time), was the only one who refused to sign the Tripartite pact joining Yugoslavia to the Axis (he correctly believed that the Germans would eventually lose the war, and had cousins in Czechoslovakia and Poland, so that he had no particular illusions about the Nazis). Twice he was offered the role of being the Quisling head of the puppet state. He refused (and then, unlike the rest of the government, who skirted off to London with the gold in the treasury, stayed behind in Croatia to share his people's fate; he also refused to deal with the Communists). And so, the Germans turned to the fringe party to rule the puppet state, i.e. the Ustasha, who among their other accomplishment decided to erect a mosque in Zagreb (they were wierdly philo-islamic, and their ideological hero regarded Bosnian Muslims as "the bloom of the Croatian nation"). Real popular move that was. A lot of Croats loved having their own state, but the only reason the Ustasha were leading it was because the Nazis put them there.

    To the extent that even the Nazis came to resent the Ustasha (for, among other things, the strangely large number of Jews in their leadership), they have pretty much themselves to blame for that. That's not to absolve the Croats, and they have to face up to the consequences of everything that happened, but expecting some goodwill from the Germans later on was reasonable, given the circumstances, and sycophantic loyalty is a ridiculous way of characterizing what went on at the time to anyone who bothers to find out what really happened.

    Using an example of a single person, as you did with Dr. Vladko Macek, is not a great way to show how a people or a country behaved during any period in history.

    A better example would be to look at the country, in this case Independent State of Croatia. If you were to read that article, it backs up Bert’s characterization.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "A better example would be to look at the country, in this case Independent State of Croatia."

    The "country" you refer to was a Nazi puppet state ruled by a fringe group of terrorists that no one in Croatia had elected. The reason they came to power in the first place was that the government leadership that the Croats did elect -- by overwhelming margins -- refused Nazi overtures, and refused even to sign the Tripartite Pact. I'm sorry that's such an inconvenient fact for you, but a fact it is, and the obvious discomfort it causes people like you is all the more reason that it should be broadcast widely.

    In any case, given those circumstances, trying to extend "sycophantic loyalty" to Croats in general, as opposed to the Ustasha in particular, is just tossing slurs around.

  122. @HA
    Krajina is a very useful lesson for iSteve readers. The Austro-Hungarians (i.e. the elites of the day) were eager to import the Serbs (i.e. human capital) and therefore gave them relatively generous measures of self autonomy, much to the chagrin of the local Croats living there. As the authors of the American Constitution knew, quartering a bunch of soldiers in any neighborhood is a recipe for disaster, since soldiers who are saviors of the country in wartime are otherwise a frequently volatile and damaged bunch of men once peacetime rolls around.

    Of course, the Croats had plenty of mercenaries, too, but they had links to the surrounding community that the autonomized Serbs didn't, and they had more disincentive to refrain from tearing up a tavern or ravaging a neighbor girl, given that the victim was bound to be a cousin or a cousin's cousin. But when the Serb soldiers roughed up the locals, and ravaged the women (or when Croat soldiers roughed up Serbs), the resentment and repercussions were more deeply felt and the reconciliation was more difficult.

    But settling the Serbs there was a smart tactic, in theory, anyway, as far as the policy planners and strategists were concerned. After all, a populated area is less likely to be overrun by the enemy. And yet, the friction it caused festered, even though in much of the rest of what was Yugoslavia, Serbs and Croats lived more amicably, simply because they weren't living on the precarious dividing line between East and West, and thrust together like cats in a sack.

    Anyway, the Krajina was where the main ideologue of what would later be the Ustasha was born (his mother was Serbian, by the way). Unlike the clerics (who tended to regard Croats solely as Catholics), or else the elites (i.e., the poets and philologists whose interactions with Serbs were focused on other elites like them, and who were therefore unaware of any dark side of melding two distinct cultures into one Yugoslav entity), this so-called "father of Croatian nationalistm" was among the first to regard the Croats as a distinct people. Thankfully, the Croatian Peasant Party would later adopt his anti-assimilationist platform (minus the nastier, crazier bits) as a key platform, and this gave the party wide popular appeal among regular Croats, and they thereby marginalized the more extreme parties out of office - at least until the Nazis came along and, as noted before, once the main party of Croats made it clear they wanted nothing to do with them, they decided to give the Ustasha a turn at running things they had never been able to achieve on their own.

    Most people here know how the rest of that story goes. In hindsight, it would have been better had it all been done differently from the start. But everyone wants to pretend it will turn out differently the next time, and so, the elites and the strategists are recommending we try all that again.

    “Of course, the Croats had plenty of mercenaries, too, but they had links to the surrounding community that the autonomized Serbs didn’t, and they had more disincentive to refrain from tearing up a tavern or ravaging a neighbor girl, given that the victim was bound to be a cousin or a cousin’s cousin. But when the Serb soldiers roughed up the locals, and ravaged the women (or when Croat soldiers roughed up Serbs), the resentment and repercussions were more deeply felt and the reconciliation was more difficult.”

    Do you have any sources for this story? You claimed in another comment that you studied East European politics and Yugoslavia, but I don’t get the impression from this comment that you really understand how Military Frontier functioned. The whole region was under direct command of Hapsburg military since the early 17th century, and I’ve never seen any source that claimed it was the Wild West type of environment you claimed it to had been. Care to share your sources?

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    • Replies: @HA
    "I’ve never seen any source that claimed it was the Wild West type of environment"

    I didn't say it was the Wild West. I said it was loaded down with soldiers/mercenaries (which any book on Yugoslavia would regard as having a fearsome reputation) along a military frontline, which is a situation already fraught with tension - and it is exacerbated further when there are ethnic differences and degrees of autonomy/isolation introduced into the mix.

    What exactly do you take issue with -- the fact that it was "under direct command of Hapsburg military"? That's all fine and well, but rather beside the point.
  123. @Charles Martel
    Handing political power to women is a dangerous business. One matriarch is busy destroying Germany merrily and another nearly destroyed Croatia.

    John Knox had it figured out. His Blasts of the Trumpet were prescient, even if they chafe moderns badly.

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  124. @HA
    Moreover, the fact that Serbs and Croats are more similar than Syrians and Slovaks doesn't mean that the history of the former (and the steps by which understandable but conflicting interests of elites and common folk led to tragedy and carnage) is not relevant.

    If anything, the problems between these already-very-similar tribes suggest that the future friction between Syrians and Slovaks stands a good chance of being even worse.

    No two species can occupy the same ecological niche in the same space. Unless they can interbreed and merge, one wins and the other goes extinct.

    Very dissimilar tribes of humans can coexist in the same space for a long period of time so long as each is separate in terms of how it lives and earns its living. If they are similar enough that a similar modus vivendi appeals to both, either one drives out and kills the other or they interbreed.

    The Angles, Saxons and Jutes became one people in England, for instance.

    Read More
  125. HA says:
    @anonymous

    sycophantic loyalty is a ridiculous way of characterizing what went on
     
    It's not an inaccurate way to describe them. They clung loyally to Hitler up until the very last days of the war while all the other allies had already jumped ship.

    It’s not an inaccurate way to describe them. They clung loyally to Hitler up until the very last days of the war while all the other allies had already jumped ship.

    Actually, when the leadership surrendered to the Allies in Austria, they had a number of Slovenians, Chetniks and Cossacks marching alongside them.

    In any case, the “they” you are referring to are the German-appointed puppet faction that no one in Croatia had elected to anything (it would have been difficult, given that their only prior claim to fame was training a Macedonian terrorist to kill the Yugoslav king, so that some were under death sentences before the war).

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  126. HA says:
    @5371
    [which I did not even mention in the post.]

    In other words, your tedious guff was completely off topic. You said it, not me.

    >In other words, your tedious guff was completely off topic.

    And yet, you somehow bothered to read it, or, more likely, pretended to. So keep trying. You’re bound to connect eventually.

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  127. HA says:
    @Mark Eugenikos
    "Of course, the Croats had plenty of mercenaries, too, but they had links to the surrounding community that the autonomized Serbs didn’t, and they had more disincentive to refrain from tearing up a tavern or ravaging a neighbor girl, given that the victim was bound to be a cousin or a cousin’s cousin. But when the Serb soldiers roughed up the locals, and ravaged the women (or when Croat soldiers roughed up Serbs), the resentment and repercussions were more deeply felt and the reconciliation was more difficult."

    Do you have any sources for this story? You claimed in another comment that you studied East European politics and Yugoslavia, but I don't get the impression from this comment that you really understand how Military Frontier functioned. The whole region was under direct command of Hapsburg military since the early 17th century, and I've never seen any source that claimed it was the Wild West type of environment you claimed it to had been. Care to share your sources?

    “I’ve never seen any source that claimed it was the Wild West type of environment”

    I didn’t say it was the Wild West. I said it was loaded down with soldiers/mercenaries (which any book on Yugoslavia would regard as having a fearsome reputation) along a military frontline, which is a situation already fraught with tension – and it is exacerbated further when there are ethnic differences and degrees of autonomy/isolation introduced into the mix.

    What exactly do you take issue with — the fact that it was “under direct command of Hapsburg military”? That’s all fine and well, but rather beside the point.

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    • Replies: @Mark Eugenikos
    So you admit that you don't have a source for that passage about tearing up the taverns, etc. In other words, you made that up. At least don't be afraid to say so, it may earn you points for honesty.
  128. HA says:
    @Mark Eugenikos
    Using an example of a single person, as you did with Dr. Vladko Macek, is not a great way to show how a people or a country behaved during any period in history.

    A better example would be to look at the country, in this case Independent State of Croatia. If you were to read that article, it backs up Bert's characterization.

    “A better example would be to look at the country, in this case Independent State of Croatia.”

    The “country” you refer to was a Nazi puppet state ruled by a fringe group of terrorists that no one in Croatia had elected. The reason they came to power in the first place was that the government leadership that the Croats did elect — by overwhelming margins — refused Nazi overtures, and refused even to sign the Tripartite Pact. I’m sorry that’s such an inconvenient fact for you, but a fact it is, and the obvious discomfort it causes people like you is all the more reason that it should be broadcast widely.

    In any case, given those circumstances, trying to extend “sycophantic loyalty” to Croats in general, as opposed to the Ustasha in particular, is just tossing slurs around.

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    • Replies: @Mark Eugenikos
    "The “country” you refer to was a Nazi puppet state ruled by a fringe group of terrorists that no one in Croatia had elected."

    Nobody had elected Mao; does that mean you are denying statehood to China?

    As the saying goes, "by their fruits ye shall know them". From the same Wiki source on the Independent State of Croatia (IDC) you can find an excerpt from a Gestapo report to Himmler from February 1942. One of the things it mentions is "The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand." That's in about 10 months since the establishment of IDC, in a country of less than 7 million people.

    I am not disputing your statement that Croatia was occupied during WWII and that IDC was a puppet state. But find me another example where the regime managed to kill that many of its citizens that fast without popular support. You won't. Therefore characterizing Croatia's relationship to Germany during WWII as "sycophantic loyalty" stands. You may not like that and you are probably going to keep arguing here (as you have argued in the past on the topic of the Ukraine), but I don't think you are going to convince many.
  129. @HA
    "I’ve never seen any source that claimed it was the Wild West type of environment"

    I didn't say it was the Wild West. I said it was loaded down with soldiers/mercenaries (which any book on Yugoslavia would regard as having a fearsome reputation) along a military frontline, which is a situation already fraught with tension - and it is exacerbated further when there are ethnic differences and degrees of autonomy/isolation introduced into the mix.

    What exactly do you take issue with -- the fact that it was "under direct command of Hapsburg military"? That's all fine and well, but rather beside the point.

    So you admit that you don’t have a source for that passage about tearing up the taverns, etc. In other words, you made that up. At least don’t be afraid to say so, it may earn you points for honesty.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "So you admit that you don’t have a source for that passage about tearing up the taverns, etc..."

    That's what you're disputing? Seriously? The claim that taverns were messed up and that young girls were violated by soldiers? You have a problem with that? On a military frontier with large numbers of men whose task was fighting Ottomans? At a time when treating what would later be called PTSD consisted solely of ever larger quantities of alcohol? At a time when military police procedures as we now know them had yet to be established? Well over a century before today (when officers are *still* known to cover up for the misbehaving soldiers they have taken a liking to)? At a time when the hajduk was a celebrated and romanticized figure, even though they were basically nothing but raiders and highwaymen? You think a local had no problem whatsoever going to the nearby garrison commander and filing a complaint that a couple of drunk soldiers had raided his wares the previous night (as opposed to worrying that if he did so, one of them or their comrades might come out later and do something far worse)? And all this compounded by the fact that distinct ethnic communities with some degree of autonomy were now involved?

    You're seriously going to tell me you have a problem with that?

    Yeah, on second thought you must be right. No messed up taverns or brutalized women ANYWHERE. Man, how could anyone have come up with something so bizarre and hard to believe?

    I gotta keep all this in mind the next time I have the stupid notion you want to be taken seriously. Lesson learned.

  130. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Charles Martel
    Handing political power to women is a dangerous business. One matriarch is busy destroying Germany merrily and another nearly destroyed Croatia.

    In the Croatian political system, the President doesn’t actually have a lot of power. The reins are, in theory, in the incapable hands of Prime Minister Zoran Milanovic. I don’t trust any of them, but I’d still rather it were the other way around. Oh well, a couple of months till the elections, and then whatever happens afterwards, at least Milanovic will be gone. After four years, I can’t even laugh at this stuff any more.

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  131. @HA
    "A better example would be to look at the country, in this case Independent State of Croatia."

    The "country" you refer to was a Nazi puppet state ruled by a fringe group of terrorists that no one in Croatia had elected. The reason they came to power in the first place was that the government leadership that the Croats did elect -- by overwhelming margins -- refused Nazi overtures, and refused even to sign the Tripartite Pact. I'm sorry that's such an inconvenient fact for you, but a fact it is, and the obvious discomfort it causes people like you is all the more reason that it should be broadcast widely.

    In any case, given those circumstances, trying to extend "sycophantic loyalty" to Croats in general, as opposed to the Ustasha in particular, is just tossing slurs around.

    “The “country” you refer to was a Nazi puppet state ruled by a fringe group of terrorists that no one in Croatia had elected.”

    Nobody had elected Mao; does that mean you are denying statehood to China?

    As the saying goes, “by their fruits ye shall know them”. From the same Wiki source on the Independent State of Croatia (IDC) you can find an excerpt from a Gestapo report to Himmler from February 1942. One of the things it mentions is “The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand.” That’s in about 10 months since the establishment of IDC, in a country of less than 7 million people.

    I am not disputing your statement that Croatia was occupied during WWII and that IDC was a puppet state. But find me another example where the regime managed to kill that many of its citizens that fast without popular support. You won’t. Therefore characterizing Croatia’s relationship to Germany during WWII as “sycophantic loyalty” stands. You may not like that and you are probably going to keep arguing here (as you have argued in the past on the topic of the Ukraine), but I don’t think you are going to convince many.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "Nobody had elected Mao; does that mean you are denying statehood to China?"

    I should have learned my lesson yesterday about taking you seriously, but let's have another round, one for the road. So, let me get this straight. You're comparing the statehood of China with that of the NDH? Really? China was a puppet state whose leaders were put into place by the Nazis because the party the Chinese people overwhelmingly supported refused to deal with them?

    Wow, you learn something every day around here!

    "One of the things it mentions is “The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand."

    Man, you are one turn-the-crank cliche, aren't you? Yeah, that old "according to German sources, the Ustashe massacred such and such", so beloved by Serb and Yugoslav propagandists - implying that the ballpark estimate of one field officer is some precise census carried out with full Teutonic rigor.

    The Yugoslav Partisans latched onto this tactic back when they were pushing for reparations from Germany. They basically made it a crime to suggest anything was amiss with such tactics. Alas for you, the figures (much like recent recaulculations of Stalin's massacres) have been revised downward by census studies carried out by the Croatian scholar Vladimir Žerjavić and the Serbian scholar Bogoljub Kočović, much to the shrieking dismay of people like yourself.

    By the way, you forgot the "even the Nazis were shocked at the brutality of the Ustasha!!!". The propagandists love to pull that one out, too. They find some relatively sane German officer who rightly denounced the carnage the thugs his boss had put into office. Funny thing, though, not one of those same German officers is quoted as to what they thought of Buchenwald or Auschwitz. You think they might have had some ironic things to say about that, too, but we never find out any that -- apparently, it doesn't add to the narrative.

    What's next, the one where some offhand forecast by a brain-damaged minister of education -- I kid you not, the minister of education -- as to what he expected would happen during the war is proclaimed as the official NDH programme? Weird how they let the minister of education hammer out this vital element of the NDH platform, given that none of it squares with what they wound up doing (e.g. the Orthodox priest they consigned to head up the Croatian Orthodox Church they set up). But don't look to close -- you might wind up with a hate-fact.

    You are correct in one very obvious point: bad things happen when a nasty, fringe group of terrorists, specializing in assassinating people, with no experience in running much of anything (given that no one in Croatia had ever elected them to anything) are put in charge of a multi-ethnic territory because of the brave refusal of the leader who had a virtual monopoly on Croatian votes. Very, very bad things. Who knew? And to you, these people -- these people -- are who we all should think of when we say "the Croats". Funny how that works out.

    , @HA
    As to how it is that a state can murder hundreds of thousands of its citizens and not have lots of popular support, it's really not that hard. Here's how, in 4 easy steps (ignoring the one about getting the Nazis to install you in the first place):

    A) get the people used to several decades of Royalist Yugoslav dictatorship and thuggery, care of gendarmes and secret police (who, by the way, had no shortage of Serb citizens who also hated them), so that they start believing that regardless of who's in charge, there's going to be some people disappearing in the night.

    B) lock down the media and replace it with your own propaganda mills (of course, by the time WWII rolled around, pretty much everyone had this part figured out). Disallow any negative mention of the brutal way in which entire village were wiped out, the Jews that were rounded up, etc., but give plenty of coverage to loopy Nazi racial theories and the "non-Slavic" Aryan/Ostrogoth origin of Croats. It's slanted garbage, of course, but if you propagate crazy stuff long enough, some will start believing it. (Ask the editors of the NYT.)

    C) Give a bunch of hicks (largely from poor areas like Herzegovina) a cache of weapons and set them loose without any regard for basic human rights (or, really, any real training at all) and again, make sure that no one who reports about what they're really doing is allowed to live.
    realistic
    D) this is CRUCIAL -- ensure that the only realistic alternative to your backward evil regime is the Communists, so that even people who hate what you're doing will have little incentive to join the other side, knowing it will only lead to yet another slew of people randomly disappearing in the night. (However, for the thousands of Croats who found themselves occupied by Italians, believing that the "anti-fascists" were something other than the Communists that quickly came to dominate and control the opposition -- well, that was pretty much the best alternative they had. By the way, what did those Croats think of the NDH that had willingly signed them over to the Italians, or the ones in the West who had been signed over to the Hungarian fascist control? They had no love for the NDH, but I guess they don't count.)

    In any case, there you have it. You put all that together and then claim that the NDH had much popular support. And myopic people of all stripes will continue to lap it up to this day, without thinking twice, and will go out of their way to denounce anyone who is willing to point out the holes in this sketchy narrative.

    You say you don't think I will do much to convince people like you. Do you think I care? You think I'm here to convince people who try to make themselves look kowledgeable by claiming they won't believe that a Krajina soldier (Serb or Croat) could ever brutalize a woman or tear up a tavern unless they see a specific citation, because it's just too hard to believe? You think that's who I want to win over to my side? No. I'm pretty much middle-of-the-road. I expect to be denounced by the propaganda-shovelers on both sides, whether its the Balkans or whether it's Ukraine. The fans of the Ustasha hate me, too. No big deal. I won't convince them, or those like you, but I might convince a few of those in the middle who are willing to listen outside the echo chamber.

    I will say one somewhat-nice thing about the Ustasha, if it can be called that. When it comes to their crushing brutality and primitivism, it was pretty much the same as that of the pig farmer who founded the Serbian Karadjordjevic dynasty if you go through the fine print and read between the lines. The only difference was that the latter regarded Turks as his enemy (which didn't stop him from personally murdering member of his own family and other Serb rivals right and left), whereas the Ustasha reserved their rage for the Royalists, and later, the Partisans. I don't mind when people denounce the butchery of the Ustasha. That is the right thing to do. What puzzles me is that some of the "Croats=Ustasha" propagandists have no problem whatsoever speaking up for the nearby state that Karadjordjevic had founded less than a century before the Ustasha came to power. If you're going to be against brutality, try and be a little more even-handed about it.

  132. HA says:
    @Mark Eugenikos
    So you admit that you don't have a source for that passage about tearing up the taverns, etc. In other words, you made that up. At least don't be afraid to say so, it may earn you points for honesty.

    “So you admit that you don’t have a source for that passage about tearing up the taverns, etc…”

    That’s what you’re disputing? Seriously? The claim that taverns were messed up and that young girls were violated by soldiers? You have a problem with that? On a military frontier with large numbers of men whose task was fighting Ottomans? At a time when treating what would later be called PTSD consisted solely of ever larger quantities of alcohol? At a time when military police procedures as we now know them had yet to be established? Well over a century before today (when officers are *still* known to cover up for the misbehaving soldiers they have taken a liking to)? At a time when the hajduk was a celebrated and romanticized figure, even though they were basically nothing but raiders and highwaymen? You think a local had no problem whatsoever going to the nearby garrison commander and filing a complaint that a couple of drunk soldiers had raided his wares the previous night (as opposed to worrying that if he did so, one of them or their comrades might come out later and do something far worse)? And all this compounded by the fact that distinct ethnic communities with some degree of autonomy were now involved?

    You’re seriously going to tell me you have a problem with that?

    Yeah, on second thought you must be right. No messed up taverns or brutalized women ANYWHERE. Man, how could anyone have come up with something so bizarre and hard to believe?

    I gotta keep all this in mind the next time I have the stupid notion you want to be taken seriously. Lesson learned.

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    • Replies: @Mark Eugenikos
    I read your comment. For those who will tl;dr, you are admitting, without willing to admit, that you made up the second paragraph in your comment #118, as obviously you can't provide any source for it. What else did you make up?
  133. HA says:
    @Mark Eugenikos
    "The “country” you refer to was a Nazi puppet state ruled by a fringe group of terrorists that no one in Croatia had elected."

    Nobody had elected Mao; does that mean you are denying statehood to China?

    As the saying goes, "by their fruits ye shall know them". From the same Wiki source on the Independent State of Croatia (IDC) you can find an excerpt from a Gestapo report to Himmler from February 1942. One of the things it mentions is "The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand." That's in about 10 months since the establishment of IDC, in a country of less than 7 million people.

    I am not disputing your statement that Croatia was occupied during WWII and that IDC was a puppet state. But find me another example where the regime managed to kill that many of its citizens that fast without popular support. You won't. Therefore characterizing Croatia's relationship to Germany during WWII as "sycophantic loyalty" stands. You may not like that and you are probably going to keep arguing here (as you have argued in the past on the topic of the Ukraine), but I don't think you are going to convince many.

    “Nobody had elected Mao; does that mean you are denying statehood to China?”

    I should have learned my lesson yesterday about taking you seriously, but let’s have another round, one for the road. So, let me get this straight. You’re comparing the statehood of China with that of the NDH? Really? China was a puppet state whose leaders were put into place by the Nazis because the party the Chinese people overwhelmingly supported refused to deal with them?

    Wow, you learn something every day around here!

    “One of the things it mentions is “The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand.”

    Man, you are one turn-the-crank cliche, aren’t you? Yeah, that old “according to German sources, the Ustashe massacred such and such”, so beloved by Serb and Yugoslav propagandists – implying that the ballpark estimate of one field officer is some precise census carried out with full Teutonic rigor.

    The Yugoslav Partisans latched onto this tactic back when they were pushing for reparations from Germany. They basically made it a crime to suggest anything was amiss with such tactics. Alas for you, the figures (much like recent recaulculations of Stalin’s massacres) have been revised downward by census studies carried out by the Croatian scholar Vladimir Žerjavić and the Serbian scholar Bogoljub Kočović, much to the shrieking dismay of people like yourself.

    By the way, you forgot the “even the Nazis were shocked at the brutality of the Ustasha!!!”. The propagandists love to pull that one out, too. They find some relatively sane German officer who rightly denounced the carnage the thugs his boss had put into office. Funny thing, though, not one of those same German officers is quoted as to what they thought of Buchenwald or Auschwitz. You think they might have had some ironic things to say about that, too, but we never find out any that — apparently, it doesn’t add to the narrative.

    What’s next, the one where some offhand forecast by a brain-damaged minister of education — I kid you not, the minister of education — as to what he expected would happen during the war is proclaimed as the official NDH programme? Weird how they let the minister of education hammer out this vital element of the NDH platform, given that none of it squares with what they wound up doing (e.g. the Orthodox priest they consigned to head up the Croatian Orthodox Church they set up). But don’t look to close — you might wind up with a hate-fact.

    You are correct in one very obvious point: bad things happen when a nasty, fringe group of terrorists, specializing in assassinating people, with no experience in running much of anything (given that no one in Croatia had ever elected them to anything) are put in charge of a multi-ethnic territory because of the brave refusal of the leader who had a virtual monopoly on Croatian votes. Very, very bad things. Who knew? And to you, these people — these people — are who we all should think of when we say “the Croats”. Funny how that works out.

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  134. HA says:
    @Mark Eugenikos
    "The “country” you refer to was a Nazi puppet state ruled by a fringe group of terrorists that no one in Croatia had elected."

    Nobody had elected Mao; does that mean you are denying statehood to China?

    As the saying goes, "by their fruits ye shall know them". From the same Wiki source on the Independent State of Croatia (IDC) you can find an excerpt from a Gestapo report to Himmler from February 1942. One of the things it mentions is "The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand." That's in about 10 months since the establishment of IDC, in a country of less than 7 million people.

    I am not disputing your statement that Croatia was occupied during WWII and that IDC was a puppet state. But find me another example where the regime managed to kill that many of its citizens that fast without popular support. You won't. Therefore characterizing Croatia's relationship to Germany during WWII as "sycophantic loyalty" stands. You may not like that and you are probably going to keep arguing here (as you have argued in the past on the topic of the Ukraine), but I don't think you are going to convince many.

    As to how it is that a state can murder hundreds of thousands of its citizens and not have lots of popular support, it’s really not that hard. Here’s how, in 4 easy steps (ignoring the one about getting the Nazis to install you in the first place):

    A) get the people used to several decades of Royalist Yugoslav dictatorship and thuggery, care of gendarmes and secret police (who, by the way, had no shortage of Serb citizens who also hated them), so that they start believing that regardless of who’s in charge, there’s going to be some people disappearing in the night.

    B) lock down the media and replace it with your own propaganda mills (of course, by the time WWII rolled around, pretty much everyone had this part figured out). Disallow any negative mention of the brutal way in which entire village were wiped out, the Jews that were rounded up, etc., but give plenty of coverage to loopy Nazi racial theories and the “non-Slavic” Aryan/Ostrogoth origin of Croats. It’s slanted garbage, of course, but if you propagate crazy stuff long enough, some will start believing it. (Ask the editors of the NYT.)

    C) Give a bunch of hicks (largely from poor areas like Herzegovina) a cache of weapons and set them loose without any regard for basic human rights (or, really, any real training at all) and again, make sure that no one who reports about what they’re really doing is allowed to live.
    realistic
    D) this is CRUCIAL — ensure that the only realistic alternative to your backward evil regime is the Communists, so that even people who hate what you’re doing will have little incentive to join the other side, knowing it will only lead to yet another slew of people randomly disappearing in the night. (However, for the thousands of Croats who found themselves occupied by Italians, believing that the “anti-fascists” were something other than the Communists that quickly came to dominate and control the opposition — well, that was pretty much the best alternative they had. By the way, what did those Croats think of the NDH that had willingly signed them over to the Italians, or the ones in the West who had been signed over to the Hungarian fascist control? They had no love for the NDH, but I guess they don’t count.)

    In any case, there you have it. You put all that together and then claim that the NDH had much popular support. And myopic people of all stripes will continue to lap it up to this day, without thinking twice, and will go out of their way to denounce anyone who is willing to point out the holes in this sketchy narrative.

    You say you don’t think I will do much to convince people like you. Do you think I care? You think I’m here to convince people who try to make themselves look kowledgeable by claiming they won’t believe that a Krajina soldier (Serb or Croat) could ever brutalize a woman or tear up a tavern unless they see a specific citation, because it’s just too hard to believe? You think that’s who I want to win over to my side? No. I’m pretty much middle-of-the-road. I expect to be denounced by the propaganda-shovelers on both sides, whether its the Balkans or whether it’s Ukraine. The fans of the Ustasha hate me, too. No big deal. I won’t convince them, or those like you, but I might convince a few of those in the middle who are willing to listen outside the echo chamber.

    I will say one somewhat-nice thing about the Ustasha, if it can be called that. When it comes to their crushing brutality and primitivism, it was pretty much the same as that of the pig farmer who founded the Serbian Karadjordjevic dynasty if you go through the fine print and read between the lines. The only difference was that the latter regarded Turks as his enemy (which didn’t stop him from personally murdering member of his own family and other Serb rivals right and left), whereas the Ustasha reserved their rage for the Royalists, and later, the Partisans. I don’t mind when people denounce the butchery of the Ustasha. That is the right thing to do. What puzzles me is that some of the “Croats=Ustasha” propagandists have no problem whatsoever speaking up for the nearby state that Karadjordjevic had founded less than a century before the Ustasha came to power. If you’re going to be against brutality, try and be a little more even-handed about it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mark Eugenikos
    You read iSteve regularly, but you didn't take his advice: when you're in a hole, stop digging.
  135. @HA
    "So you admit that you don’t have a source for that passage about tearing up the taverns, etc..."

    That's what you're disputing? Seriously? The claim that taverns were messed up and that young girls were violated by soldiers? You have a problem with that? On a military frontier with large numbers of men whose task was fighting Ottomans? At a time when treating what would later be called PTSD consisted solely of ever larger quantities of alcohol? At a time when military police procedures as we now know them had yet to be established? Well over a century before today (when officers are *still* known to cover up for the misbehaving soldiers they have taken a liking to)? At a time when the hajduk was a celebrated and romanticized figure, even though they were basically nothing but raiders and highwaymen? You think a local had no problem whatsoever going to the nearby garrison commander and filing a complaint that a couple of drunk soldiers had raided his wares the previous night (as opposed to worrying that if he did so, one of them or their comrades might come out later and do something far worse)? And all this compounded by the fact that distinct ethnic communities with some degree of autonomy were now involved?

    You're seriously going to tell me you have a problem with that?

    Yeah, on second thought you must be right. No messed up taverns or brutalized women ANYWHERE. Man, how could anyone have come up with something so bizarre and hard to believe?

    I gotta keep all this in mind the next time I have the stupid notion you want to be taken seriously. Lesson learned.

    I read your comment. For those who will tl;dr, you are admitting, without willing to admit, that you made up the second paragraph in your comment #118, as obviously you can’t provide any source for it. What else did you make up?

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    • Replies: @HA
    All right, you got to me. It pains me to think that someone so interested in what I write, and whose opinion matters so, so much to me, would think I was trying to deceive him. How horrible that would be! So this, in lieue of the various journals I haven't looked at in years, and for all I know never even got put on line, gets as close as I could get. The area is the eastern portion of the frontier, around Srijem/Srem.

    The Serbian leadership began to mobilize the entire population regardless of nationality or religious confession. This led to unrest and rebellion among the German population, especially in the Military Frontier District. Troops had to be sent in to restore order and arrested Swabians and took them to Karlowitz to the military barracks. The Serbs declared the Wojwodina a part of their state and were faced by the opposition of the Roman Catholic population. In response to the Serbian provocations, the Roman Catholic population became more and more pro-Hungarian. As long as the Hungarians and Serbs battled one another anarchy reigned in the Wojwodina. Plundering, murder and robbery were the order of the day. The Serbian population simply ran amok. The Germans, like those in Bukowitz suffered greatly at their hands...
     
    http://www.danube-swabians.com/Bosnia-Slavonia-Syrmien.pdf


    And a little more background on how far the autonomy of the local commander went:


    The best alternative was settling the Military Frontier District with former soldiers who were called: Grenzers (Border Guards). They and their families lived in the District, carried out agricultural pursuits, the rearing of livestock and also served as soldiers to defend the frontier and protect their homes and families.

    Many of these settlers were refugees from the Turks in danger of extermination if they remained in their former homes. Others were retired soldiers and as veterans they were ready to settle down. The third group were Serbs under their Patriarch who had fled from the Turks and were settled in Syrmien and southern Hungary. Another group were the Croats who had survived the Turkish occupation and massacres. The last group to arrive were Germans invited to settle in the Military Frontier Districts of the Banat and Syrmien. The only Grenzer village in Slavonia was in Neudorf by Vinkovci settled in 1819 by the Border Regiment. In 1881 the Military Frontier District had a population of 520,000 Roman Catholic Croats, 650,000 Orthodox Serbs and some 34,000 others of various nationalities and religious faiths.

    Seventeen regiments consisting of some 100,000 men under arms patrolled the Military Frontier District. The Regimental Commander was also the administrator of the District under his command. He had responsibility for all aspects of life, all military matters, including training and all aspects of the lives of men from 18-60 years of age in his District, the spiritual care of the population, the educational system for the children, the material and economic welfare of the District and the upholding of law and order and the functioning of jurisprudence and the courts.
     

    http://www.danube-swabians.org/hrastovac/Slavonia/Welemirowatz_in_Slavonia.htm

    I'll leave it to anyone else who might come across this if being given that kind of control might ever lead to the kinds of abuses I was referring to. Anyway, if you don't like any of that, the next step would be to do your own searching for a change and prove what I wrote was wrong.

    With regard to the incident described (the one about plundering, murder and robbery), when I think of soldiers running large a bit, my assumption is that alcohol and women are the top targets, but maybe the violence described above had some other slant.

    One other thing I learned from this is why, of all the things I mentioned, this in particular interested you so much in the first place. As it turns out, the direct Austrian rule of the frontier can itself be viewed as a propaganda flashpoint. The Serbs in the frontier wanted to preserve that direct link to Vienna. The Croats wanted the territory put under Croatian control. That, too, exacerbated tensions between them. Moreover, that would explain why Serbian sources (which, to take a wild guess, is where your sympathies lie) would be so passionate about making sure that life in the frontier was portrayed as some kind of blissful Arcadia. Another curious thing, given so much antipathy to Germans and Austrian rulers, is to note at least one little episode of Serbian history where the relationship between Serbs and Austrians is insistently looked upon glowingly, even to this day (though obviously, as the link indicates, there were still Volksdeutsche issues from time to time).

    So, even though I thought I was being impartial in my description of life there, apparently the very notion that there might have been a dark side to that situation is a red flag to Serbian apologists.Who knew?

  136. @HA
    As to how it is that a state can murder hundreds of thousands of its citizens and not have lots of popular support, it's really not that hard. Here's how, in 4 easy steps (ignoring the one about getting the Nazis to install you in the first place):

    A) get the people used to several decades of Royalist Yugoslav dictatorship and thuggery, care of gendarmes and secret police (who, by the way, had no shortage of Serb citizens who also hated them), so that they start believing that regardless of who's in charge, there's going to be some people disappearing in the night.

    B) lock down the media and replace it with your own propaganda mills (of course, by the time WWII rolled around, pretty much everyone had this part figured out). Disallow any negative mention of the brutal way in which entire village were wiped out, the Jews that were rounded up, etc., but give plenty of coverage to loopy Nazi racial theories and the "non-Slavic" Aryan/Ostrogoth origin of Croats. It's slanted garbage, of course, but if you propagate crazy stuff long enough, some will start believing it. (Ask the editors of the NYT.)

    C) Give a bunch of hicks (largely from poor areas like Herzegovina) a cache of weapons and set them loose without any regard for basic human rights (or, really, any real training at all) and again, make sure that no one who reports about what they're really doing is allowed to live.
    realistic
    D) this is CRUCIAL -- ensure that the only realistic alternative to your backward evil regime is the Communists, so that even people who hate what you're doing will have little incentive to join the other side, knowing it will only lead to yet another slew of people randomly disappearing in the night. (However, for the thousands of Croats who found themselves occupied by Italians, believing that the "anti-fascists" were something other than the Communists that quickly came to dominate and control the opposition -- well, that was pretty much the best alternative they had. By the way, what did those Croats think of the NDH that had willingly signed them over to the Italians, or the ones in the West who had been signed over to the Hungarian fascist control? They had no love for the NDH, but I guess they don't count.)

    In any case, there you have it. You put all that together and then claim that the NDH had much popular support. And myopic people of all stripes will continue to lap it up to this day, without thinking twice, and will go out of their way to denounce anyone who is willing to point out the holes in this sketchy narrative.

    You say you don't think I will do much to convince people like you. Do you think I care? You think I'm here to convince people who try to make themselves look kowledgeable by claiming they won't believe that a Krajina soldier (Serb or Croat) could ever brutalize a woman or tear up a tavern unless they see a specific citation, because it's just too hard to believe? You think that's who I want to win over to my side? No. I'm pretty much middle-of-the-road. I expect to be denounced by the propaganda-shovelers on both sides, whether its the Balkans or whether it's Ukraine. The fans of the Ustasha hate me, too. No big deal. I won't convince them, or those like you, but I might convince a few of those in the middle who are willing to listen outside the echo chamber.

    I will say one somewhat-nice thing about the Ustasha, if it can be called that. When it comes to their crushing brutality and primitivism, it was pretty much the same as that of the pig farmer who founded the Serbian Karadjordjevic dynasty if you go through the fine print and read between the lines. The only difference was that the latter regarded Turks as his enemy (which didn't stop him from personally murdering member of his own family and other Serb rivals right and left), whereas the Ustasha reserved their rage for the Royalists, and later, the Partisans. I don't mind when people denounce the butchery of the Ustasha. That is the right thing to do. What puzzles me is that some of the "Croats=Ustasha" propagandists have no problem whatsoever speaking up for the nearby state that Karadjordjevic had founded less than a century before the Ustasha came to power. If you're going to be against brutality, try and be a little more even-handed about it.

    You read iSteve regularly, but you didn’t take his advice: when you’re in a hole, stop digging.

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    • Replies: @HA
    "You read iSteve regularly, but you didn’t take his advice: when you’re in a hole, stop digging."

    And yet, for whatever reason, you're so eager for more. Aw, I'm genuinely touched. Therefore, let's continue to maybe one more thing I didn't get to say, regarding anonymous at #122 who claimed that the Croats "clung loyally to Hitler up until the very last days of the war", which of course is a lie. In fact, many in the Home Guard did take up the Partisans' offer of amnesty the prior year, and those that didn't (including tens of thousands Slovene Home Guards, Cossacks, and even Chetniks who eventually surrendered to the Allies, as noted in the link I provided), either were not offered that amnesty, or understandably didn't feel the Partisans would honor it. Not everyone considers Communism an acceptable alternative, and that was all that was on offer at the time.

    Also, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that if anyone were to ridicule the Serbs for their "sycophantic loyalty to Communism" (given that they were just about the last country behind the Iron curtain to leave that system behind), you'd point out that this is in fact a canard, and that given what the Serbs were up against at the time, and what Milosevic was feeding them, it is understandable that many at the time saw it as their only realistic choice, or at least something they were willing to tolerate for a time, and really, there's no reason to claim that Serbs are intrinsically more loyal to Communism than anyone else. And you'd be right about that. So why can't you be as honest when it comes to Croats?

    "For those who will tl;dr, you are admitting, without willing to admit, that you made up the second paragraph in your comment #118"

    Asked and answered, but again, if you insist on more, let me see what I got: I'll let others judge whether tearing up things in the other guy's neighborhood is something you're more likely to do than when it comes to tearing things up in the place that you your cousin or uncle or other in-law owns. In any case, let no one kid themselves, when it comes to granting "semi-autonomy" to tribal warlords who are defending your frontline against the enemy, it basically means looking the other way on occasion when they want to settle things themselves.

    I'm not saying the Austro-Hungarian leadership condoned things like murder and rape, but anyone who thinks that (or some less serious offense) didn't happen now and then and was not subsequently taken care of by the locals, hasn't a clue about how things in that part of the world worked. Ironically, I'd bet these are some of the same people who have no problem believing Jewish money lenders and tax collectors on occasion used their privilege to unfairly take advantage of some peasant -- because really, that's just human nature, after all -- but man, when it comes to anyone else abusing their privilege, it's just too hurtful to even think about.

  137. HA says:
    @Mark Eugenikos
    You read iSteve regularly, but you didn't take his advice: when you're in a hole, stop digging.

    “You read iSteve regularly, but you didn’t take his advice: when you’re in a hole, stop digging.”

    And yet, for whatever reason, you’re so eager for more. Aw, I’m genuinely touched. Therefore, let’s continue to maybe one more thing I didn’t get to say, regarding anonymous at #122 who claimed that the Croats “clung loyally to Hitler up until the very last days of the war”, which of course is a lie. In fact, many in the Home Guard did take up the Partisans’ offer of amnesty the prior year, and those that didn’t (including tens of thousands Slovene Home Guards, Cossacks, and even Chetniks who eventually surrendered to the Allies, as noted in the link I provided), either were not offered that amnesty, or understandably didn’t feel the Partisans would honor it. Not everyone considers Communism an acceptable alternative, and that was all that was on offer at the time.

    Also, I’m going to take a wild guess and say that if anyone were to ridicule the Serbs for their “sycophantic loyalty to Communism” (given that they were just about the last country behind the Iron curtain to leave that system behind), you’d point out that this is in fact a canard, and that given what the Serbs were up against at the time, and what Milosevic was feeding them, it is understandable that many at the time saw it as their only realistic choice, or at least something they were willing to tolerate for a time, and really, there’s no reason to claim that Serbs are intrinsically more loyal to Communism than anyone else. And you’d be right about that. So why can’t you be as honest when it comes to Croats?

    “For those who will tl;dr, you are admitting, without willing to admit, that you made up the second paragraph in your comment #118″

    Asked and answered, but again, if you insist on more, let me see what I got: I’ll let others judge whether tearing up things in the other guy’s neighborhood is something you’re more likely to do than when it comes to tearing things up in the place that you your cousin or uncle or other in-law owns. In any case, let no one kid themselves, when it comes to granting “semi-autonomy” to tribal warlords who are defending your frontline against the enemy, it basically means looking the other way on occasion when they want to settle things themselves.

    I’m not saying the Austro-Hungarian leadership condoned things like murder and rape, but anyone who thinks that (or some less serious offense) didn’t happen now and then and was not subsequently taken care of by the locals, hasn’t a clue about how things in that part of the world worked. Ironically, I’d bet these are some of the same people who have no problem believing Jewish money lenders and tax collectors on occasion used their privilege to unfairly take advantage of some peasant — because really, that’s just human nature, after all — but man, when it comes to anyone else abusing their privilege, it’s just too hurtful to even think about.

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  138. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @inertial
    "Going 1389" must mean"getting slaughtered and losing their country to invaders."

    Maybe Steve slightly mixed up the numbers. If you switch 3 and 9, and then turn the number 9 upside down, you get from 1389 to 1683.

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  139. HA says:
    @Mark Eugenikos
    I read your comment. For those who will tl;dr, you are admitting, without willing to admit, that you made up the second paragraph in your comment #118, as obviously you can't provide any source for it. What else did you make up?

    All right, you got to me. It pains me to think that someone so interested in what I write, and whose opinion matters so, so much to me, would think I was trying to deceive him. How horrible that would be! So this, in lieue of the various journals I haven’t looked at in years, and for all I know never even got put on line, gets as close as I could get. The area is the eastern portion of the frontier, around Srijem/Srem.

    The Serbian leadership began to mobilize the entire population regardless of nationality or religious confession. This led to unrest and rebellion among the German population, especially in the Military Frontier District. Troops had to be sent in to restore order and arrested Swabians and took them to Karlowitz to the military barracks. The Serbs declared the Wojwodina a part of their state and were faced by the opposition of the Roman Catholic population. In response to the Serbian provocations, the Roman Catholic population became more and more pro-Hungarian. As long as the Hungarians and Serbs battled one another anarchy reigned in the Wojwodina. Plundering, murder and robbery were the order of the day. The Serbian population simply ran amok. The Germans, like those in Bukowitz suffered greatly at their hands…

    http://www.danube-swabians.com/Bosnia-Slavonia-Syrmien.pdf

    And a little more background on how far the autonomy of the local commander went:

    The best alternative was settling the Military Frontier District with former soldiers who were called: Grenzers (Border Guards). They and their families lived in the District, carried out agricultural pursuits, the rearing of livestock and also served as soldiers to defend the frontier and protect their homes and families.

    Many of these settlers were refugees from the Turks in danger of extermination if they remained in their former homes. Others were retired soldiers and as veterans they were ready to settle down. The third group were Serbs under their Patriarch who had fled from the Turks and were settled in Syrmien and southern Hungary. Another group were the Croats who had survived the Turkish occupation and massacres. The last group to arrive were Germans invited to settle in the Military Frontier Districts of the Banat and Syrmien. The only Grenzer village in Slavonia was in Neudorf by Vinkovci settled in 1819 by the Border Regiment. In 1881 the Military Frontier District had a population of 520,000 Roman Catholic Croats, 650,000 Orthodox Serbs and some 34,000 others of various nationalities and religious faiths.

    Seventeen regiments consisting of some 100,000 men under arms patrolled the Military Frontier District. The Regimental Commander was also the administrator of the District under his command. He had responsibility for all aspects of life, all military matters, including training and all aspects of the lives of men from 18-60 years of age in his District, the spiritual care of the population, the educational system for the children, the material and economic welfare of the District and the upholding of law and order and the functioning of jurisprudence and the courts.

    http://www.danube-swabians.org/hrastovac/Slavonia/Welemirowatz_in_Slavonia.htm

    I’ll leave it to anyone else who might come across this if being given that kind of control might ever lead to the kinds of abuses I was referring to. Anyway, if you don’t like any of that, the next step would be to do your own searching for a change and prove what I wrote was wrong.

    With regard to the incident described (the one about plundering, murder and robbery), when I think of soldiers running large a bit, my assumption is that alcohol and women are the top targets, but maybe the violence described above had some other slant.

    One other thing I learned from this is why, of all the things I mentioned, this in particular interested you so much in the first place. As it turns out, the direct Austrian rule of the frontier can itself be viewed as a propaganda flashpoint. The Serbs in the frontier wanted to preserve that direct link to Vienna. The Croats wanted the territory put under Croatian control. That, too, exacerbated tensions between them. Moreover, that would explain why Serbian sources (which, to take a wild guess, is where your sympathies lie) would be so passionate about making sure that life in the frontier was portrayed as some kind of blissful Arcadia. Another curious thing, given so much antipathy to Germans and Austrian rulers, is to note at least one little episode of Serbian history where the relationship between Serbs and Austrians is insistently looked upon glowingly, even to this day (though obviously, as the link indicates, there were still Volksdeutsche issues from time to time).

    So, even though I thought I was being impartial in my description of life there, apparently the very notion that there might have been a dark side to that situation is a red flag to Serbian apologists.Who knew?

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  140. I read your reply and the relevant part of the linked document (the Danube Swabians book). The section you quoted talks about the upheaval during the Hungarian revolution of 1848-49, and it devotes all of two short paragraphs to clashes between Serbs and Germans during that specific time without going into any detail. The book is not a history of the Military Frontier, nor does it pretend to be. It’s a book about German people who lived on the territory of the former Yugoslavia, i.e. the Volksdeutsche. Meaning, you are grasping at straws.

    I asked you to provide the source for the second paragraph in your comment #118. Being intelligent, you must realize that you haven’t done it. So the answer to my question, can you provide a source for that passage about tearing up taverns and ravaging neighbor girls, is still a “no”. It was a “no” then and it’s a “no” now. The only logical conclusion I can make is, you made that up.

    The simple thing to do would be to say “sorry, I made that up”. But you can’t get yourself to do it. You wrote several responses, over 3,000 words, including a short history of WWII, pig farmers and dynasties, genocide historians, etc. etc. Yet none of that supports the paragraph in question. And I’m not even going to address that most of the things you claim I said, I neither said nor implied (you can use Ctrl+F to verify); it’s all in your head.

    Do you realize that this is unhealthy?

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  141. HA says:

    “The book is not a history of the Military Frontier,…”

    So now we’re in the splitting-hairs phase of the discussion. As you can well see, the piece in question does discuss the Military Frontier, and the groups of people who lived there and in particular, does discuss the type of violence that comes from allowing a militant, anti-assimilationist minority with considerable autonomy (and the other link describes the very extensive autonomy in question) into an already tense region. If that’s not enough, I’d like to hear as much from someone more objective.

    Because all you’re offering is excuses. No, you say, the only acceptable text should be something focusing solely on the Military Frontier, and a history thereof, and anything else doesn’t count. Or else, it needs to be some other time interval. Or else, “plundering, murder and robbery” doesn’t have enough “detail”, and you need to see something specifically on torn up taverns and violated women.

    And you think I’m the one grasping at straws?

    I already told you: if you don’t like what I cited, do your own research for a change. I at least provided something. I didn’t want to, because it’s a chore to dig through that stuff, but eventually, much to your surprise, I did it. And that’s more than can be said for you. So when you’re done wiping the egg off your face, head down to your library or spend some time on the internet and look up whatever it is you need to look up and answer some of the questions I asked that you never bothered with. It’s your turn.

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